From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Oct 1 01:44:27 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 18:44:27 -0700 Subject: Hindu iconography and communication of ideas Message-ID: <161227041565.23782.14463072719780659001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, I shall be grateful for guidance on literature on the subject of ancient icons of gods and goddesses carrying weapons (apart from the classics of TA Gopinatha Rao and JN Banerjea). In particular, on s'akti pi_t.has in NW India and the iconography of Durga as mother goddess in ancient India and perhaps in Mesopotamia. Thanks and best regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Oct 1 06:59:08 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 23:59:08 -0700 Subject: On ghaTikA Message-ID: <161227041569.23782.1567638416519544328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You could try the following (old) article: The Ancient Indian Waterclock. J. F. Fleet. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1915: 213-230. At 09:56 AM 9/30/98 EDT, you wrote: >I would like to know if there are detailed descriptions of time measuring >devices, ghaTikA, in Sanskrit texts? How did they operate? How were they made? >Thanks in advance. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 1 15:26:15 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 08:26:15 -0700 Subject: Hindu iconography and communication of ideas Message-ID: <161227041579.23782.13525225733268154038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> D. C. Sircar, The Sakta Pithas, Delhi, 2nd ed., 1973 V. R. Mani, The cult of weapons: the iconography of aayudhapurushas, Delhi, 1985 Regards, N. Ganesan Aside: (Enjoyed your webpage on The Cosmic Dancer. The dwarf at the feet of Nataraja at Chidambaram and elsewhere is called "muyalakan" in Tamil. I think it was written as "muuyaalakan" at the webpage.) From: "Dr.S.Kalyanaraman" Friends, I shall be grateful for guidance on literature on the subject of ancient = icons of gods and goddesses carrying weapons (apart from the classics of TA Gopinatha Rao and JN Banerjea). In particular, on s'akti pi_t.has in NW I= ndia and the iconography of Durga as mother goddess in ancient India and perha= ps in Mesopotamia. Thanks and best regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL Thu Oct 1 07:50:11 1998 From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 08:50:11 +0100 Subject: unicode Message-ID: <161227041567.23782.14405516727138511783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Agnes Kron wrote: those who are interested in the development of Unicode are invited to visit our test pages (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/unitest.htm). The devanagari characters officially provided can be found in the upper half of block 09 (0900 through 0970), and the additional ones proposed by us are in block E9. A font to go with all that is under preparation. Agnes Korn -- On the subject of Unicode, does anyone have information on a keyboard remapper that is able to access the Unicode glyphs in Windows 95? (or, even better, OS/2?) The beta of the Titus-font I have does have all the glyphs, but they can only be used in Word97 with Insert>Symbol, which is a hassle. TIA Thomas de Bruijn From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Oct 1 17:54:08 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 10:54:08 -0700 Subject: Hindu iconography and communication of ideas Message-ID: <161227041581.23782.15855037304858778640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr.S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > > Friends, > > I shall be grateful for guidance on literature on the subject of ancient icons > of gods and goddesses carrying weapons (apart from the classics of TA > Gopinatha Rao and JN Banerjea). In particular, on s'akti pi_t.has in NW India > and the iconography of Durga as mother goddess in ancient India and perhaps in > Mesopotamia. > > Thanks and best regards, > Dr. S. Kalyanaraman > Dear Dr. Kalyanaraman, Apart from the classics like Banerjea you might try: Beane, Wendell. Myth, Cult and Symbols in Sakta Hinduism: A Study of the Indian Mother Goddess. Leiden: Brill, 1977. Bhatacharyya, N. N. Indian Mother Goddess. Calcutta: R. K. Maitra, 1971. Harper, Katherine. An Iconological Study of the Origins and Development of the Saptamatrkas. Mishra, V. Mahisasuramardini. Delhi: Rajesh Publications, 1983. Nagar, Shanti lal. The Universal Goddess. Delhi: 1988. Neumann, Eric. The Great Mother. Princeton: Bollingen, 1963. Singh, Sheo Bahadur. Brahmanical Icons in Northern India: A Study of Images of Five Principal Deities from earliest Times to ca. 1200 A.D. New delhi: Sagar Publications, 1977. Srivatsava, Balram. Iconography of sakti: A Study Based on Sritattvanidhi. Delhi: Chaukhamba Orientalia, 1978. Trivedi, R.D. Iconography of Parvati. Delhi: Agam Prakashan, 1981. Good luck, Mary Storm From smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Thu Oct 1 15:02:16 1998 From: smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Sushil Mittal) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 11:02:16 -0400 Subject: IJHS India Library Program Message-ID: <161227041577.23782.12117711959845435890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, all: I am starting a program to provide complimentary copies of the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ to certain targeted research institute, organizational, university, and other school libraries in India that cannot afford the subscription rates. The cost of these donated journals and the postage will be underwritten by me and by donations (contributions of any size will be welcome). The subscription will start with volume 1 (1997) and will continue for at least five years so that a library will not have sporadic runs of the journal. I would be most grateful if you would help me in identifying 1) fifty libraries in India that you feel should be given subscriptions. 2) contact persons at these libraries who will verify the receipt of the journal and the access thereto by students and scholars. I hope that, with your cooperation, we will be able to implement this program. Regards, Sushil Dr Sushil Mittal University of Florida Department of Religion 125 Dauer Hall, PO Box 117410 Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410 Telephone (352) 392-1625 Telefax (352) 392-7395 E-mail smittal at religion.ufl.edu IJHS Homepage http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ From a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Thu Oct 1 10:23:06 1998 From: a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (agnes korn) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 11:23:06 +0100 Subject: unicode Message-ID: <161227041574.23782.11591858431603034833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a program of the kind requested by Thomas de Bruijn, it is called Unikey and is downloadable via http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thomas_bigler/. Best regards Agnes Korn -- ......................................................................... Agnes Korn Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. + 49 - 69 - 798 22 847 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax + 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : a.korn at em.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt : http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Thu Oct 1 18:09:20 1998 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 14:09:20 -0400 Subject: Rice on Tilak Message-ID: <161227041583.23782.4491547479233822577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists: There are many reasons why rice is used on vermillion when applying a tilak. Some reasons are simple or practical: rice is small and white and stays on the tilak. But the more important reason is husked rice, as opposed to other cereals or lentils, does not sprout. It is beyond growth and decay and therefore complete, whole. Anthropoligically rice is more ancient than wheat in India. The Dravidian connection cited by you is an interesting one. Th tilak which is a bindu is analogous to the anusvara, a sign of purnatva or fullness. A grain that is full and complete, and which is not susbject to birth and death through growth, only can augment the tilak and none other. I would welcome any comments. Harsha V. Dehejia hdehejia at ccs.carleton.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 1 08:48:45 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (anil k gupta) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 14:18:45 +0530 Subject: why is rice used and not wheat in north indian rituals??? Message-ID: <161227041571.23782.3078168721053094311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am curious if some one could educate me on why is rice grain used in tilak or various other ceremonies and not wheat grain??? We are planning the cover page of honey bee news letter next issue on this subject and will appreciate any input, information or even speculation on the subject. Does it have to do some thing with the Aryan attempt to incorporate symbols of Dravidian cultures in its mainstream and there by assimilate them with in its fold?? I look forward to hear soon Thanks very much Anil k gupta Anilg at iimahd.ernet.in -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 1 22:45:47 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 15:45:47 -0700 Subject: On ghaTikA Message-ID: <161227041585.23782.8977906589308719156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, 1) Nataraja Sarma, Measures of time in ancient India, Endeavour, New Series, v. 15, p. 185-188, 1991 2) "Indian time, European time" - an article in T. Trautmann (ed.) Time: histories and ethnologies, UMich 3) A. K. Coomaraswamy, Time and eternity, Ascona, 1947 4) R. S. Khare, The concept of time and time-reckoning among the Hindus: an anthropological viewpoint Eastern Anthropologist, 20, 1967, p. 47-53 Regards N. Ganesan PS: On an earlier query, I find K. D. Sethna, The Aryans, the domesticated horse and the spoked chariot-wheel, JAS Bombay ns 38, 1963, p. 44-68 ----------- A. K. Bag, The knowledge of geometric figures, instruments and units in "sulbasuutras. East & West, 21, 1/2, 1971, p. 111-119. In Handbuch der Orientalistik series, there was a Technical/Scientific Literatures of India or something like that announced long ago. It never was published, I think. (I wish a work like Pingree, "Jyotihsastra: astral & math. literature" is done on technical/scientific literature of India) In general, there are only a very few writeups on instruments, mechanical devices etc., from ancient or medieval India. I would like to get help on references on devices in India, say pre 1600 CE. There are nowadays many conferences; you can skim thru', for eg., Sanskrit and Science, Kuppusvami Sastri research institute, 1997 Nupur Dasgupta, The dawn of technology in Indian protohistory, 1997 Calcutta, 619 p. Kashinath Hota, Bibliography of technical science, Pune, 1995 (On Sanskrit materials) D. M. Bose, A concise history of science in India, Indian National Science Academy, 1971 V. Raghavan, Yantras or mechanical contrivances in ancient India, Bangalore, 1956, 33 p. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Oct 2 00:04:33 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 17:04:33 -0700 Subject: [Rice on Tilak] Message-ID: <161227041587.23782.17793324675039640469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dehejia wrote: (snip)> > But the more important reason is husked rice, as opposed to other cereals or lentils, does not sprout. It is beyond growth and decay and therefore complete, whole.> > Anthropoligically rice is more ancient than wheat in India. The Dravidian connection cited by you is an interesting one.(snip) I request you to refer to the following web pages: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/html/ricediffusion.htm A map detailing the diffusion of black and red ware and rice from Lothal (2200 BC) to Sonpur (650 BC)attesting to the continuity of the civilization. http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/Indian%20Lexicon/rice.htm A few pages of ancient lexemes of Indian languages related to many forms of rice. This semantic cluster is one sample from among thousands of lexical repertoire where the Dravidian/Mundarica etyma and Aryan etyma coalesce, in a remarkable dialectical continuum from Gujarati to Bengali, from Nepali to Tamil to Sinhalese. Best regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Oct 2 02:04:22 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 22:04:22 -0400 Subject: XI World Skt Conf Message-ID: <161227041563.23782.10177756958519980152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Oscar Botto (the President of the CESMEO) has just informed me that the next world Sanskrit Conference will be held in Turin (Italy) on April 3-8, 2000. For more info, please call CESMEO, +39+11+546 564 or fax +39+11+545 031 or write to CESMEO, Via Cavour 17 - 10123 Torino (Italia) -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 2 06:21:25 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 02:21:25 -0400 Subject: On Agastya and Aryanization-1 Message-ID: <161227041589.23782.2528683518325809139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-09-30 14:03:56 EDT, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << p. 237 KZ quotes K. A. Nilakanta Sastri "one historical Agastya, the author of the vedic hymns and husband of Lopmudra, who played an important role in his time in furthering the *aryanization* of the South .." p. 240 "Originally there were perhaps two rival medieval legend about Agastya current in Tamilnadu. Both admit that the Vedic sage was the pioneer of Aryanization, but one maintains that he was also the creator of the Tamil language and grammar and that Tolkaappiyar was his pupil, whereas the other asserts that Agastya and Tolkappiyar quarreled ... >> What follows is a result of my research on "Aryanization" of Agastya. Since the material is long, I am splitting it into multiple postings. Comments are welcome. ---------------------------------------- There is a term "ko/Otukula" which occurs in Tamil inscriptions which give important clues to the religious and cultural history of South Asia. Specifically, the early followers of ziva seem to have been potters. It looks like this term "ko/Otukula" has not been understood by epigraphists or religious scholars or practising zivAcArya priests till now. Even the correct form of the word has not been decided on until now. For instance, G. V. Srinivasa Rao, the editor of some volumes of South Indian Inscriptions, transliterates a name obviously derived from 'ko/Otukula" as "kOdukulavan" in Vol. 13 and as "gOdukulavan" in vol. 19. Tamil Lexicon considers the form to be "kotukula". Allowing for the variations in transliteration of -t- as -d- or -t-, one has to decide on the initial consonant and vowel. The reason for the variation is that most written texts in Tamil did not distinguish between short e and long E and between short o and long O.until the time of Beschi. Also, Tamil cannot have voiced stops in word-initial positions. So the lexicon considered the first vowel to be short while Rao considered it to be long. Also, Rao seems to have "reconstructed" the first consonant to be "g" in one case and taken as "k" in another. The correct form of the word is obtained from a tirumantiram verse as shown below. nAtan2 oruvan2um nalla iruvarum kOtu kulattoTum kUTTik kuzaittan2ar Etu paNi en2Ru icaiyum iruvarukku Ati ivan2E aruLukin2RAn2E. (tir.408) >?From the rhyme of the verse, it is obvious that the first vowel indeed is long "O". As for the consonant, there is no evidence to consider it to be "g". In fact, as I shall show later, it is most probably "k" and not "g". So the correct form is decided as kOtukula using the standard transliteration scheme. Then the next question is, what is the meaning of "kOtukula"? According to the Tamil Lexicon, kotukulam refers to a caste called tUtar. It gives an epigraphic citation as "kotukulac cavaiyAriR cUriyan2". A later publication, KanniyAkumarik kalveTTukkal, pt.3, no.323, (TAS, v.6, pt.2, p.130) of 1532 AD gives the revised reading as "kotukulac cavaiyAril Ariyan2 cokkan2 periya perumAL mAttANTap piramAtarAyan2". The title of "piramAtarAyan2" (= Skt. brahmAdhirAjA) given to this person belonging to this sabha (cavai) shows he was a brahmin. So the sabha must have been an assembly of brahmins. It leads to the next question. Why was this assembly called kOtukula sabha? From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 2 06:21:28 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 02:21:28 -0400 Subject: On Agastya and Aryanization-3 Message-ID: <161227041595.23782.7022830016034635685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> kOtu cannot be a Tamil word, because the meaning "fault" does not apply to the tirumantiram verse. So we have a borrowed and nativized word. It looks like the words kOti and kOtu stand for Sanskrit words kvAthi and kvatha. According to Monier-Williams, kvAthi refers to Agastya (fr. kvatha, 'boiling pot', cf. kumbha-janman). The cluster kvA- and kva- can become kO- in Tamil analogous to Skt. svAti > Ta. cOti, and Skt. svastika > Ta. cOttikam. Of course -th- > -t- as in Skt. tithi > Ta. titi. The word-final -a in Sanskrit can become tamil -u as in Skt. soma > Ta. cOmu. This Sanskrit-Tamil equivalence seems to suggest that Agastya is associated with kOtukulam, the potter community. ziva, as kOtukulavan2, is also associated with the potter community. The Tirumantiram verse quoted also offers clues supporting this identification. The relevant line reads, "kOtu kulattoTum kUTTik kuzaittan2ar" The verses in tirumantiram often have esoteric tantric meanings apart from their apparent meanings. Here let us consider the surface meanings alone. kUTTu means to unite, join, combine, mix, etc., and kuzai means to mix as powder with liquid, to gather in a lump, etc. These actions have a special significance with respect to pottery where the potter prepares the lump of clay by mixing different component materials and water. In fact, the potter's technical term for the lump of clay is "kUTTu". The connection of potter's wheel with Creation is prevalent in many cultures. It is definitely there in zaiva/tantra concepts. In the zaiva siddhAnta text, civaJAna cittiyAr cupakkam, ziva is equated to potter, his zakti to the potter's wheel, and mAyA to the clay and the universe to the pots. Discussing the worship of potter's wheel by various castes in north India, Baidyanath Saraswati says, "In Tantra literature, we find a few esoteric rites connected with the potter's wheel which also aim at the attainment of vigour?One may perhaps try to link wheel-worship with the rites of fertility promotion. When the wheel is loaded with a lump of clay at the centre, it symbolically represents the lingam (phallus) as well as the yoni (female genital passage)- both very popular symbols of phallism. The manifestation of Siva as the god of reproduction or generative power may, therefore, have some relation with the worship of the potter's wheel." (Pottery-Making Cultures and Indian Civilization, pp.88-89) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 2 06:21:31 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 02:21:31 -0400 Subject: On Agastya and Aryanization-2 Message-ID: <161227041593.23782.2527199258822866122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tamil inscriptions come to the rescue. It was a custom during medieval times to name volumetric units after the king/chieftain or the chief deity of the temple. For instance, the measure used in the vEdAraNyam temple was called tirumaRaikkATan2 after the name of the deity. Similarly a measure was called pazuvUr nakkan2 after a chieftain kuvalALapuram ( nowadays called Kolar in Karnataka). We have an inscription of 10th century which mentions a measure called "kOtukulavan2" in a ziva temple in tiruneTuGkaLam in the Chola country. Another inscription mentions a priest of the temple called "kOtukula paTTar". So either it referred to ziva or a local king/chieftain. We can rule out king or chieftain because we also find the name used in the 13th century in kalliTaikkuRicci in the Pandya country as "kAzyapa kOttirattu eccavarAkan2a ANTamAlAn2a kOtu[ku]lapaTTan2" meaning kOtukula paTTan2 whose name was "yajnavarAhan ANTamAl of kazyapa gotra". In another inscription, we find the name kOtukula- as part of a name of an irrigation channel. In other inscriptions, we also find non-brahmin officials with names such as "kOtukulavan2 viraccOzanAkiya uttamacOza nen2malinATTu muvEnta vELAn" and "kOtukulavan2 cAttanAn2a parakEcarimuvEnta vELAn2" of paruttikkuTi. We also have a dancer named "kAman tiruviyAn2a kOtukula mANikkam". All these suggest kOtukulavan2 referred to ziva as belonging to a community called kOtukulam in the same manner as kRSNa is associated with the cowherd community. For instance, inscriptions have names such as "kaNNapaTTan tiruvAykkulamuTaiyAn2", a zri vaiSNava brahmin of kAzyapa gotra. Aykkulam means cowherd community. We also have a brahmin named as "yAdavapaTTan2". This means that in the history of zaivism, this community called kOtukulam had a special relationship with the cult. Who were these people? To understand these, we have to figure out what kOtu stands for. Fortunately, we find an apparently related name of a ziva brahmin "iLaGko/Oti sUryan" of kAzyapa gotra who was granted the right of worship in a temple. The context suggests that iLaGko/Oti was the name of sUryan's father. In that case, the correct form of the name was iLaGkOti or young kOti. . (Semantically, iLaGkoti meaning "young heat"/ "young boiling" seems unlikely.) This is similar to a classical Tamil poet named iLaGkaucikan2Ar or young kauzika. Thus we have the forms kOti, and kOtu. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 2 06:21:33 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 02:21:33 -0400 Subject: On Agastya and Aryanization-4 Message-ID: <161227041591.23782.13730671996857327205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his article, "Agastya Legend and the Indus Civilization" (Journal of Tamil Studies, Dec. 1986, no. 50, p. 25-27), Iravatham Mahadevan says, "According to the tradition recorded in the Matsyapurana (202, 12-13), Agastyas are classified as 'rakshasas". Pargiter (1922, P. 241) interprets this as indicating the association of Agastya with Non-Aryan tribes?. Even today Tamilnadu has the largest number of Siva temples dedicated to the 'Lord of Agstya' (Agastyezvara), a feature almost unique to Tamilnadu, as noted by Ghurye (P.72). According to most competent scholars it is from South India that the Agastya cult was carried to the South-East Asian countries." Inscriptions reveal the existence of many such temples in medieval times also. A tenth century inscription mentions "Agattiyan2 Atitta nilakaNTan2", "Agattiyan2 caGkaranArAyaNan2 cUlapANi", "Agattiyan2 mAtEvan2 kAri" as the members of the brahmin sabhA. The forms of the names suggest that these people considered themselves to be of the Agastya gotra. Considering the discussion above and that the potter-priest-warrior functions were probably performed by an undifferentiated community in pre-Vedic times as discussed in earlier Indology postings, many potters of pre-Vedic tradition seem to have adopted Aryan traditions and become brahmins in later times. According to D. D. Kosambi, "The kazyapas have clear connection with aborigines through the prajapati myths and also the tortoise totem which their name indicates. It is very well known that a good many of the spurious Brahmins claim the kAzyapa gotra. The interdict which hiraNyakezin-satyASADha (H. zraura-sUtra 10.4) places upon the kazyapas and kaNvas at feasts to the manes is no longer observed; but it cannot have been accidental." (The Autochthonous Element in the mahAbhArata, in JAOS, no. 84, p.41.) It should also be noted that purANas say that the bhArgava parazurAma gave the earth to kazyapa brahmins after he destroyed the kSatriyas. An interesting hero stone inscription of 7th century, ceGkam naTukaRkaL, no. 78, reads "vENATiLak kOvUr nATTu kOil paTTar vantu toRuk koNTa nAn2Ru mERceGkai mAmmuTaiya pAratAyar makan2 toRu mITTup ?". The name "pAratAyar" is the Tamilized form of "bhAradvAja", a popular brahmin name in medieval times and earlier. While one cannot conclude the caste affiliation by the word "paTTar" per se, the qualifier "kOil" in the case of one and the name "bhAradvAja" and the Sanskrit-Tamil hybrid "mAmmuTaiya" in the case of the other suggest these were temple priests and probably brahmins. The inscription may be translated as "When the temple priest of vENATiLak kOvUr nATu raided the cattle, the son of my(?) bhAradvAja of western CeGkai retrieved the cattle and?.". This behavior of cattle-raiding and cattle-retrieving are normally associated with the warrior community of the puRam genre of the Classical Tamil texts. Even secular brahmins have been military generals in the Tamil areas. But brahmin priests in temples are not expected to be warrior-like as shown here. What the inscription portrays seems to be a situation of a non- brahmin priestly community in the process of becoming brahmins. With respect to the question of Aryanization and Agastya, Iravatham Mahadevan said in the article mentioned above that "the Agastya legend has preserved the memory of the southern migration of groups of Dravidian speakers displaced from the north after the advent of the Aryans into India and that it is possible to trace the ultimate origin of the legend to the Indus civilization." While Mahadevan linked the Agastya legend to "the ruling and the land-owning classes in the Tamil country", he has missed their affiliation with the potter-priests. With this critical link, one can bring together data from many fields to reconstruct a cogent scenario of possible cultural conversion or Aryanization of early South Asia. Regards S. Palaniappan From arbs at EROLS.COM Fri Oct 2 12:32:06 1998 From: arbs at EROLS.COM (Asian Rare Books) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 08:32:06 -0400 Subject: some op/old books on India & British India Message-ID: <161227041617.23782.1970267786384427472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > some op books on India and British-India, etc. > > ASIAN RARE BOOKS 175 W. 93 Street(16-D), New York, N.Y. 10025-9344 USA > FAX 1-212-316-3408 PHONE 1-212-316-5334 Business by appointment > website http://www.erols.com/arbs/ email: arbs at erols.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >1. Reginald Heber: Narrative of A Journey Through the Upper Provinces of India, FromCalcutta to Bombay, 1824-1825(With Notes Upon Ceylon), An Account of a Journey to Madras and the Southern Provinces, 1826, and Letters Written in India. London: John Murray 1829. Fourth Ed. 3 vols. Woodcut illustrations. Occasional light foxing, bit o f creasing but a good set in later three-quarters leather and boards some discolor. Few early author signatures. Few pages a bit loose. $ 275.00 > >2. W. Crooke: The Popular Religion and Folk-Lore of Northern India. Westminster 1896. 2 vols. Plates. Internally good and clean with a few owner stamps, bookplates or signatures. Cloth is very worn, spines crudely taped and much chipped, with one cover loose. $ 75.00 > >3. John Clark Marshman: The Life and Times of Carey, Marshman, and Ward Embracing the History of the Serampore Mission. London: Longman, Brown, Green 1859. 2 vols. Grease stain running along margins of some pages of one volume; few rough edges or tears at endpapers. Foredges darkened, somewhat soiled. Ownership signature, stamps, bookplates of Canning. Withal a good, quite clean set in somewhat rubbed cloth, inner hinges cracking with some repair, chipping at spines. Quite scarce. $ 375.00 > >4. Capt. J.T. Newall: Hog Hunting in the East, And Other Sports. London: Tinsley 1867. Illust.(one plate lacking). Generally minor scattered soiling, some light foxing, few margin tears. Signatures at endpaper, bookplate. Original blue cloth worn and somewhat discolored. $ 90.00 > > > >5. William Rice: "Indian Game" (From Quail to Tiger). London Allen 1884. 12 chromolithos. Few small tears, bit of minor creasing else a good, clean copy. Slight wear to embossed cloth. $ 250.00 > > >6. Lieut. John Wood: A Letter to Major-General Sir Archibald Galloway..of the East India Company, on the Navigation of the Indus river. For Private Circulation. London: Lewis and Son 1849. Disbound 39pp. pamphlet some minor creasing, some extreme corners of a few pages chipped away. Good. Sgined on title Sir John Hobhouse. $ 50.00 > > >7. (British Gov?t) Report of the Debates in the House of Commons Upon the Tenth, Fifteenth, and Eighteenth Days of July 1806. London 1806. Disbound . 127pp. booklet. Some minor foxing, creasing. $ 47.50 > >8. Shipwrecks and Adventures of Captain Donald Campbell in the East Indies; Including His Imprisonment, by Hyder Alli?s Troops, and His Escape from Death London nd Disbound 35pp. booklet. Some foxing, generally minor stains. Some puncture holes along blank gutter margin. A bit of the printing is faint. Withal a nice copy. $ 40.00 > >9. Adventures of Captain James Thompson, In the Northern Circars of India, Where He Officiated as Judge Advocate and Chaplain.. L. nd Disbound 36pp. booklet. Scattered soiling or foxing, but withal nice. $ 40.00 > >10. Major John Scott: The Conduct of His Majesty?s Late Ministers Considered, As it Affected The East- India Company and Mr. Hastings. London: Debrett 1784. 90pp. Disbound booklet. $ 75.00 > >11. We Have Been All in the Wrong; Or, Thoughts Upon the Dissolution of the Late, And Conduct of the Present Parliament, and Upon Mr. Fox?s East-India Bills. London: Debrett 1785. 70pp. disbound booklet. Some marginal worming. Penned name at title. $ 45.00 > >12. The Substance of the Speech of Mr. Joseph Hume, At The East-India House, on the 6th of October 1813 Upon the Motion for an Increase of the Salaries to the Directors of the East-India Company..London 1814. Ix., 47pp. Disbound booklet. $ 50.00 > >13. [James Johnson, R.N.]: An Account of a Voyage to India, China, &c. in His Majesty?s Ship Caroline, Perfrorned in the Years 1803-4-5..By An Officer of the Caroline. London 1806. Fold. map loose with light foxing. Ex-lib. disbound. Clean.[Lust 375] $ 60.00 > >14. Mrs. Hofland: The Young Cadet: or Henry Delamere?s Voyage to India, His Travels in Hindostan. His Account of the Burmese War and the Wonders of Ellora. New York 1828. Duodecimo. Illust. Scattered moderate foxing or soiling, few marginal tears. Worn half leather and boards. $ 50.00 > >15. George F. Atkinson: Indian Spices for English Tables. Rare Relish of Fun from the Far East. Being the Adventures of Our Special Correspondent In India.. London: Day & Son 1860. Oblong Quarto. Many Figures. Lithograph title page. This is a decent reading copy, the pages being loose and either lightly or some even moderately foxed. Some rough edges. Worn decorated boards. $ 125.00 > >16. Indian Christians Biographical and Critical Sketches. Madras: Natesan & Co. nd Illust. Disbound in loose chipped boards but internally complete and clean. Tears at few lower corners. $ 15.00 > >17. George Trumbill Ladd: Intimate Glimpses of Life in India in the Winter of 1899-1900. Boston 1919. Illust. Some rough edges. Siganture at endpaper. $ 22.50 > >18. Morton Klass: East Indians in Trinidad. A Study of Cultural Persistence. NY 1961. Illust. Cloth. Dustjacket. $ 27.50 > >19. John M. Fritz et al: Where Kings and Gods Meet. The Royal Centre at Vijayanagara, India. Tucson 1984. Quarto. Illust. Cloth. $ 25.00 > >20. Vivian Meik: The People of the Leaves: NY 1931. Illust. Cloth bit darkened at spine. $ 25.00 > 21. Col. T.C. Hodson: The Primitive Culture of India. London: Royal Asiatic Society 1922. Generally clean ex-lib. Stamps on title. Boards wear. $ 30.00 > >22 Denys Bray: The Life-History of a Brahui. London: Royal Asiatic Society 1913. Bookplate of RAS. Cloth. $ 47.50 > >23. W. Woodville Rockhill(Tr.): Udanavarga: A Collection of Verses from the Buddhist Canon Compiled by Dharmatrata. London 1892. Cloth. $ 47.50 > >24. Verrier: Elwin: The Muria And Their Ghotul. London/Bombay: Oxford 1947. First. Figures, plates. Paper bit of wrinkling but withal a very good copy. Cloth. Dustjacket. $ 90.00 > >25. Verrier Elwin: The Tribal World of Verrier Elwin. An Autobiography. London/Bombay: Oxford 1964. First. Illust. Cloth. Dustjacket. $ 37.50 > >26. Verrier Elwin: The Tribal Art of Middle India. A Personal Record. London/Bombay: Oxford 1951. First. Illust. Cloth. Dustjacket. $ 45.00 > >27. Verrier Elwin: Nagaland. Shillong 1961. First Ed. Illust. Cloth some wear and bumping. Dustjacket tears. $ 37.50 > >28. Vitold. DeGolish: Primitive India. NY 1954. Plates. Cloth. Some dustjacket tearing. $ 37.50 > >29. List of Reports from the Committee of Secrecy Appointed to Enquire into the State of the East India Company[=Reports from the Committees of the House of Commons, vol. IV]. London ca. 1773. Folio. 763pp. Withal a good, clean copy with some minor foxing, few margin repairs. New endpapers and binding. (Contains nine reports from Dec. 1772 through June 1773) $ 500.00 > >30. The Prince of Wales? Eastern Book. A Pictorial record of the Voyages of H.M.S. "Renown" 1921-1922. London/NY ca. 1922. Quarto. Illust. Few tears, some creases and some age browning, but withal a nice copy in somewhat worn cloth, spine repir. $ 40.00 > >31. Sunity Devee: The Life of Princess Yashodara Wife and Disciple of the Lord Buddha. London 1929. Quarto. Tipped-in color plates. Cloth some wear, discolor. Spine faded with small tear at top. $ 90.00 > >32. J.-B. Aquarone: D. Joao De Castro Gouverneur et Vice-Roi Des Indes Indes Orientales(1500-1548). Contribution a l?Histoire de la Domination Portugaise en Asie..Paris 1968. 2 vols. Illust. Wrappers. $ 95.00 > >33. Arnold Gesell, M.D.: Wolf Child and Human Child. Neing a Narrative Interpretation of the Life History of Kamala, the Wolf Girl. Based on the Diary Account of a Child Who Was Reared by a wolf..in the Province of Bengal, India. New York/london 1941. Sm. Quarto. Illust. Cloth, faded at spine. Signature of Viola Bernard at endpaper. $ 60.00 > >34. M. Frere: Old Deccan Days or Hindoo Fairy Legends Current in Southern India Collected from the Oral Tradition. Philadelphia 1868. Illust. Decent copy but with some scattered foxing, some soiling, and shaken in worn cloth. Frontis. Illust. touched up by later coloring. $ 25.00 > >35. Mark Dresden(Tr.): The Jatakastava or "Praise of the Buddha?s Former Births". Philadelphia 1955. Quarto. Wrappers. $ 37.50 > >36. Sir Richard Burton: Pilpay?s Fables. The First Publication of the Great Translation. Tucson/Kathmandu 1997. Quarto. Wrappers. One of 125 copies published and signed by editor Thomas Cox based on Burton?s manuscript in The Huntington Library. $ 35.00 > >37. Lawrence E. Gichner: Erotic Aspects of Hindu Sculpture. Np 1949. Illust. 56pp. Boards. $ 100.00 > >38. Fatima Meer: Portrait of Indian South Africans. Durban 1969. Quarto. Illust. Cloth. Dustjacket. $ 50.00 > >39. Paul Wirz: Exorcism and the Art of Healing in Ceylon. Leiden 1954. Illust. Clean ex-lib. Light cloth wear. $ 87.50 > >40. Iohannes C. Amadutius: Alphabetum Grandonico-Malabaricum sive Samscrudonicum. Rome: Typis Sac. Congregationis de Propaganda Fide 1772. Fold. charts. Original wrappers bound into later cloth. $ 400.00 > >41. Iohannes C. Amadutius: Alphabetum Barmanorum Seu regni Avensis. Rome: Typis Sac. Congregationis de Propaganda Fide 1787. Original wrappers bound into later cloth. $ 400.00 > >42. R.B. Smart(Comp.): Burma Gazetteer. Ruby Mines District. Volume A/Akyab District. Volume A/The Mandalay District. Volume A. Rangoon 1915-1928. Lacks the maps. 3 vols. $ 60.00 > >43. Col. Henry Yule and A.C. Burnell: Hobson-Jobson. A Glossary of Colloquial Anglo-Indian. NY Reprint nd. Cloth. $ 50.00 > >44. K.A. Nilakanta Sastri(Ed.): Age of the Nandas and Mauryas. Delhi 1967. Cloth. Dustjacket. $ 35.00 > >45. J.P. Sharma: Republics in Ancient India c. 1500 B.C.-500 .B.C. Leiden 1968. Signed author dedication. Cloth. $ 35.00 > >46. A.P. Dasgupta: The Central Authority in British India 1774-1784. Calcutta 1931. Cloth. $ 35.00 > >47. Arthur W. Ryder(Tr.): The Little Clay Cart[Mrcchakatika]. A Hindu Drama. Cambridge: Harvard 1905. Signature inside front covers. $ 30.00 > >48. Holden Furber: Bombay Presidency in the Mid-Eighteenth century. NY 1965. Signature at endpaper. Cloth. Spine faded. $ 15.00 > >49. Emmy Wellesz: Akbar?s Religious Thought Reflected in Mogul Painting. London 1952. Illust. Cloth. $ 30.00 > >50. Aziz Ahmad: Studies in Islamic Culture in the Indian Environment. Oxford 1966. Signature at endpaper. Cloth. $ 35.00 >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Offers subject to remaining unsold. Postage Extra. > ASIAN RARE BOOKS 175 W. 93 Street(16-D), New York, N.Y. 10025-9344 > website http://www.erols.com/arbs/ Business by appointment > FAX (212) 316 3408 email: arbs at erols.com Phone (212) 316 5334 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL Fri Oct 2 09:41:27 1998 From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 10:41:27 +0100 Subject: unicode Message-ID: <161227041615.23782.14068277610592745773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Janet Freeman wrote Within the Word97 Insert>Symbol dialog box is a command button labelled Shortcut Key... which allows you to allocate the symbols to key combinations. Regards Janet Freeman Janet Dear Indologists, Thank you Janet Freeman and Agnes Korn for the tips on using the Unicode glyphs and Word97. A few problems remain however and perhaps the list is interested in this (if not, they will have skipped this message altogether). Bigler's UniKey is a nifty program, but not a keyboard remapper, it does not allow you to alter the general keyboard layout under Win95. It only facilitates the insertion of Unicode characters in a more graphical pleasing way than Word's Insert>Symbol dialogue or the Character Map function which dates from Win3.0 and is just as un-userfriendly as it was back then. In my experience UniKey under W95 does not work outside Word97 (have not tried other Unicode compliant editors, but in Wordpad any non-Ansi character appears as a ?). Perhaps switching to W98 might give improvement in this area, but will undoubtedly create other problems. The suggestion by Janet Freeman is interesting: by combining templates and keyboard definitions one could perhaps build a usable interface for typing in Unicode Sanskrit/Hindi in Word97. Will start working on it. Thanks for the suggestions, Thomas de Bruijn From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 2 16:26:28 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 17:26:28 +0100 Subject: some op/old books on India & British India In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981002123206.008b9ec4@pop.erols.com> Message-ID: <161227041619.23782.13227069620756460123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr Stephen Feldman of Asian Rare Books has emailed me and phoned me (from NY) to apologize for posting his booklist to our forum. This was quite inadvertent, and he is fully aware of the INDOLOGY policy of not including advertisements. I should like to thank him publicly for his words, and to note for the record that he *is* a standing member of the list, and not a hit-and-run spammer! All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Oct 3 04:38:47 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 21:38:47 -0700 Subject: [On Agastya and Aryanization-3] Message-ID: <161227041621.23782.12468428197211345387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote in 4 postings: [snip]> kOtu cannot be a Tamil word, because the meaning "fault" does not apply to the> tirumantiram verse. So we have a borrowed and nativized word. It looks like> the words kOti and kOtu stand for Sanskrit words kvAthi and kvatha. According> to Monier-Williams, kvAthi refers to Agastya (fr. kvatha, 'boiling pot', cf.> kumbha-janman). The cluster kvA- and kva- can become kO- in Tamil analogous to> Skt. svAti > Ta. cOti, and Skt. svastika > Ta. cOttikam. Of course -th- > -t-> as in Skt. tithi > Ta. titi. The word-final -a in Sanskrit can become tamil -u> as in Skt. soma > Ta. cOmu.> > This Sanskrit-Tamil equivalence seems to suggest that Agastya is associated> with kOtukulam, the potter community. ziva, as kOtukulavan2, is also> associated with the potter community. The Tirumantiram verse quoted also> offers clues supporting this identification. The relevant line reads,> "kOtu kulattoTum kUTTik kuzaittan2ar">[snip] The observations are scintillating and thought-provoking indeed. The postings are as relevant as the observations made by KV Sarma in the Adyar Bulletin on vedic culture in San:gam literature to evaluate the cultural contacts in ancient South Asia. The following lexemes may perhaps also be relevant in the context of kOtu = pottery. got.ri = muddy, dirty (Kui)(DEDR 2067); kut.t.am = pond, depth (Ta.)(DEDR 1669); kun.d.a = pit (Skt.) khuda_, khoda_ = to dig (B.); godu = hole (K.)(CDIAL 3934) khot.ranu = to dig (S.); khotar = burnt sediment of milk (N.)(CDIAL 3512) kot.ara = hollow of a tree (Skt.)(CDIAL 3496) khod.ra_ = id. (Kur.)(DEDR 1660). kottan- = a mason (Ta.)(DEDR 2091).But, cf. od.ru = a caste that make mud walls (S.); od. = a caste of Hindus who dig and carry earth and build mud houses (G.)(CDIAL 2549) In legend, Agastya is also known as the sage born of the pot. Another issue, however, is the date of Agastya. Best regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Oct 3 14:01:53 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 98 07:01:53 -0700 Subject: [SV: some op/old books on India & British India] Message-ID: <161227041627.23782.2974815890910950962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Lars Martin Fosse wrote: Couldn't we have a kind of "license" system here? In other word: Why don't we invite some booksellers to post their lists on Indology? I should think that the number of qualified indological/orientalist booksellers can't be that enormous, and consequently, the list would not be swamped with unwanted mailings.> I agree with Lars Martin Fosse entirely. Without such postings, we will be the losers. If there is a problem on the size of word count in a mailing, I will be happy to host the lists on the web with an URL reference on the indology mailing list and add a link at the yahoo sarasvatisindhu club site. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 3 13:42:17 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 98 14:42:17 +0100 Subject: Hermann Jacobi, the Indologist (fwd) Message-ID: <161227041625.23782.5592882381346361286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 22:33:08 PDT From: navaratna rajaram Subject: Re: Hermann Jacobi, the Indologist [...] I have been seriously misrepresented by Srinivas Parchure. Nowhere have I claimed that Jacobi was influenced by Vedic Mathematics. Jacobi the Indologist looked at astronomical references in the Rigveda which pointed to dates between 4500 and 2500 BC for their composition -- or so he thought. Jacobi the mathematician is irrelevant. I have no control over others misrepresenting me. My request is that people go to my own work and not judge on the basis of hearsay. If my books are not immediately accessable, they can go to my website: for an idea. But it is not a substitute for my books. I am interested to learn that Hermann Grassman turned to Indology. (I am a mathematician myself, a former professor of mathematics at a couple of universities in the U.S. until I decided to devote full time to ancient history.) Thank you! Sincerely, Rajaram From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Oct 3 14:58:17 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 98 14:58:17 +0000 Subject: SV: some op/old books on India & British India Message-ID: <161227041623.23782.13290120027919715674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: Mr Stephen Feldman of Asian Rare Books has emailed me and phoned me (from NY) to apologize for posting his booklist to our forum. This was quite inadvertent, and he is fully aware of the INDOLOGY policy of not including advertisements. I should like to thank him publicly for his words, and to note for the record that he *is* a standing member of the list, and not a hit-and-run spammer! As it happens, I was very happy to receive Mr Feldman's list, and would welcome more of them. It seems to me that we should welcome some advertisments, i.e. advertisements about books that we all need or want to know about. To deny people like Mr. Feldman to mail his booklist to Indology is probably punishing us more than him. Couldn't we have a kind of "license" system here? In other word: Why don't we invite some booksellers to post their lists on Indology? I should think that the number of qualified indological/orientalist booksellers can't be that enormous, and consequently, the list would not be swamped with unwanted mailings. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2158 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 3 14:20:10 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 98 15:20:10 +0100 Subject: Ramayana sound files, BASQUE, etc. (fwd) Message-ID: <161227041629.23782.12654501399279608199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:03:53 +0200 From: "[x-user-defined] Andr? Signoret" Subject: BASQUE [...] I am glad to announce that my site has incorporated a Basque Section. I consider Basque as a major language with regard to linguistics. It has many features which can only be found in other languages like Hungarian or Japanese! I have also developed sound files, some on line and others to be downloaded. RAAMAAYAN'A III (Aranyakan'd'a) Chapters 1, 2) can henceforth be downloaded with text, French literal translation and Voice (the whole in DOC files for Winword). [...] Best Wishes. Andr? http://www.club-internet.fr./perso/andresig/index.html From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Oct 3 14:53:03 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 98 16:53:03 +0200 Subject: Hermann Jacobi, the Indologist (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041631.23782.6105548267207026726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Rajaram, May I request you to go through my posting (and the thread) once again, before drawing your (wrong) conclusions! Thank you ! --Sreenivas P.S. I have access (rather have personal copies) to complete works of Hermann Jacobi, and your published work. > I have been seriously misrepresented by Srinivas Parchure. Nowhere .... > I have no control over others misrepresenting me. My request is that From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Oct 3 16:22:58 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 98 21:22:58 +0500 Subject: Ramayana sound files, BASQUE, etc. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041633.23782.15874966944502494803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I downloaded the ramayan1.zip (700 KB) containing the first six slokas. It is a great effort no doubt and Monsueir Andre must congratulated for his nice idea. But the pronunciation is far from satisfactory. This indicates that there is a need for Ramayana and similar works in the form of audio cassettes. regards, sarma. At 03:20 PM 10/3/98 +0100, you wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:03:53 +0200 >From: "[x-user-defined] Andr? Signoret" > >Subject: BASQUE > >[...] > >I am glad to announce that my site has incorporated a Basque Section. I >consider Basque as a major language with regard to linguistics. It has >many features which can only be found in other languages like Hungarian or >Japanese! > >I have also developed sound files, some on line and others to be >downloaded. RAAMAAYAN'A III (Aranyakan'd'a) Chapters 1, 2) can henceforth >be downloaded with text, French literal translation and Voice (the whole >in DOC files for Winword). > >[...] >Best Wishes. > >Andr? > >http://www.club-internet.fr./perso/andresig/index.html > > > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 4 18:35:55 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 98 11:35:55 -0700 Subject: Help with a zloka Message-ID: <161227041639.23782.14891709629851032036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm looking for a samskr*t zloka ( a fairly elementary zubhASitam) that translates as: "Good friendship is like the shadow of a tree in the afternoon; it starts off by being small and lengthens as a function of time, Bad friendship is like the shadow of a tree in the early part of the day; it starts off by being long and reduces as a function of time" I would be greatful to anybody for the samskr*t original and the source. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 4 17:50:35 1998 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 98 12:50:35 -0500 Subject: upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat In-Reply-To: <199810041616.BAA23225@hongo.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227041637.23782.16161258569682566187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While not a direct answer to the question of the origin of the verse in question, Mr. Kim should not overlook the long note on the passage in Teruyoshi TANJI's translation of the first chapter of Prasannapada, "Akirakana Kotoba I" page 103-105, note 31. Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP Sun Oct 4 16:13:24 1998 From: lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP (Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won)) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 01:13:24 +0900 Subject: upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat Message-ID: <161227041635.23782.7494138118159970941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Listmembers: Does anyone know another locations of following zloka, especially the locations in the vyakaara.na literatures. upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // I already know this zloka is in the MadhyaantavibhaagaTikaa (Pandeya ed. p. 5). The context is following. [p.5] etir gatyartha.h / prati.h praaptyartha.h /upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat / upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // pratiitya zabdo'tra lyabanta.h praaptaavapek.saayaa.m vartate / samutpuurva.h padi.h praadurbhaavaartha iti samutpaada.cabda.h praadurbhaave vartate / Muulamadhyamakaarikaas (Madhyamikasuutras) de Naagaarjuna avec la Prasannapadaa Commentaire de Candrakiirti, ed. by de la Valee Poussin,Bibliotheca Buddhica 4. Thanks in advance. $B!y!y!y (B KIM Jae-sung Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies University of Tokyo e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Oct 5 10:33:25 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 06:33:25 -0400 Subject: upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat In-Reply-To: <199810041616.BAA23225@hongo.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227041642.23782.69142780269962800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The verse that I have come across in the grammatical literature has a slightly different reading: upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anya.h pratiiyate / prahaaraahaarasa.mhaaravihaaraparihaaravat // The reference in front of me is from Kau.n.dabha.t.ta's Vaiyaakara.na- bhuu.sa.nasaara (Nipaataarthanir.naya section), edited by Tarakeshwar Shastri Chaturvedi, Adarsha Granthamala, No. 2, Varanasi, 1965, p. 377. Here, this verse is among the verses introduced with the comment: ukta.m caak.rtyadhikara.navaarttike. This must be Tantravaarttika of Kumaarila on Miimaa.msaasuutra 1.3.33 (aak.rtis tu kriyaarthatvaat). Check the Anandrashrama edition of MS (with bhaazya and vaarttika), Pt. I, pp. 302ff. I have this reference from one of my own earlier publications, and I don't have that volume at hand at the moment. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won) wrote: > Dear Indology Listmembers: > > Does anyone know another locations of following zloka, especially the > locations in the vyakaara.na literatures. > > upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / > ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // > > I already know this zloka is in the MadhyaantavibhaagaTikaa (Pandeya ed. > p. 5). > > The context is following. > > [p.5] > etir gatyartha.h / prati.h praaptyartha.h /upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat / > > upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / > ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // > > pratiitya zabdo'tra lyabanta.h praaptaavapek.saayaa.m vartate / > samutpuurva.h padi.h praadurbhaavaartha iti samutpaada.cabda.h praadurbhaave vartate / > > Muulamadhyamakaarikaas (Madhyamikasuutras) de Naagaarjuna avec la Prasannapadaa > Commentaire de Candrakiirti, ed. by de la Valee Poussin,Bibliotheca Buddhica 4. > > Thanks in advance. > > $B!y!y!y (B > KIM Jae-sung > Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies > University of Tokyo > e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp > From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Mon Oct 5 13:22:41 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 09:22:41 -0400 Subject: translation in english requested. Message-ID: <161227041650.23782.15006461954756928767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi all I am working on the great poet KALIDASA and his works in sanskrit. Can anybody help in finding out the Translation for his poetic work 'SYAMALA DANDAKA'. I need a soft copy of it (or if it is available on any web site that will be helpful) thanks in advance. krishna From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Oct 5 07:59:33 1998 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 09:59:33 +0200 Subject: Help with a zloka In-Reply-To: <19981004183555.24593.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041640.23782.11256137699665083866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 Oct 98 at 11:35, S Krishna wrote: > I'm looking for a samskr*t zloka ( a fairly elementary zubhASitam) > that translates as: > > "Good friendship is like the shadow of a tree in the afternoon; it > starts off by being small and lengthens as a function of time, Bad > friendship is like the shadow of a tree in the early part of the > day; it starts off by being long and reduces as a function of time" > > > I would be greatful to anybody for the samskr*t original and the > source. aarambhagurvii k.sayi.nii krame.na laghvii puraa v.rddhimatii ca pa;scaat / dinasya puurvaardhaparaardhabhinnaa chaayeva maitrii khalasajjanaanaam / The Epigrams Attributed to Bhartrhari Including the Three Centuries. [...] crit. ed. [...] by D. D. Kosambi. Bombay 1948 (Singhi Jain Series. 23.). Stanza No. 62. (Section: Niiti;slokaa.h) -- Dr. Roland Steiner Fachgebiet Indologie, FB 11 der Philipps-Universitaet Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6 D-35032 Marburg (Briefanschrift / for letters) D-35039 Marburg (Paketanschrift / for parcels) Germany Tel.: +49-6421-282184; Fax: +49-6421-284995 E-Mail: Steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE From emstern at NNI.COM Mon Oct 5 14:02:35 1998 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 10:02:35 -0400 Subject: upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041653.23782.7368184001070107485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the passage referred to by Madhav Deshpande, kau.n.dabha.t.ta.h cites only two verses from tantravaartikam to miimaa.msaasuutram 1.3.33 (Anandashrama SS edition, 1970 A,D. reprint, 250.10-13). The vaiyaakara.nabhuu.sa.nasaara.h passage in question reads (as edited by Balakrsna Pancholi, in Kashi Sanskrit Series 188; Varanasi, 1969 printing; 377.3-378.2): ukta.m caak.rtyadhikara.navaarttike caturvidhe pade caatra dvividhasyaarthanir.naya.h / kriyate sa.mzayotpatternopasarganipaatayo.h // tayorarthaabhidhaane hi vyaapaaro naiva vidyate / yadarthadyotakau tau tu vaacaka.h sa vicaaryate // iti //. upasarge.na dhatvartho balaadanya.h pratiiyate / prahaaraahaaravihaaraparihaaravat // iti // atropasargapada.m nipaatopalak.sa.nam / dhaatupada.m padaantarasyeti bodhyam // As I read it, the first *iti* (after the second verse) ends the domain of *ukta.m caak.rtyadhikara.navaarttike*. The third verse is introduced without ascription, and followed by a brief comment. It should further be noted that sthiramati.h, the author of the madhyaantavibhaaga.tiikaa, seems to have lived in the 6th century A.D., while kumaarila.h evidently was active in the first half of the 7th century A.D. That said, it seems clear that the verse is not kumaarila's. Elliot Stern >The verse that I have come across in the grammatical literature has a >slightly different reading: > upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anya.h pratiiyate / > prahaaraahaarasa.mhaaravihaaraparihaaravat // >The reference in front of me is from Kau.n.dabha.t.ta's Vaiyaakara.na- >bhuu.sa.nasaara (Nipaataarthanir.naya section), edited by Tarakeshwar >Shastri Chaturvedi, Adarsha Granthamala, No. 2, Varanasi, 1965, p. 377. >Here, this verse is among the verses introduced with the comment: ukta.m >caak.rtyadhikara.navaarttike. This must be Tantravaarttika of Kumaarila >on Miimaa.msaasuutra 1.3.33 (aak.rtis tu kriyaarthatvaat). Check the >Anandrashrama edition of MS (with bhaazya and vaarttika), Pt. I, pp. >302ff. I have this reference from one of my own earlier publications, and >I don't have that volume at hand at the moment. > > Madhav Deshpande > >On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won) wrote: > >> Dear Indology Listmembers: >> >> Does anyone know another locations of following zloka, especially the >> locations in the vyakaara.na literatures. >> >> upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / >> ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // >> >> I already know this zloka is in the MadhyaantavibhaagaTikaa (Pandeya ed. >> p. 5). >> >> The context is following. >> >> [p.5] >> etir gatyartha.h / prati.h praaptyartha.h /upasargavazena >>dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat / >> >> upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / >> ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // >> >> pratiitya zabdo'tra lyabanta.h praaptaavapek.saayaa.m vartate / >> samutpuurva.h padi.h praadurbhaavaartha iti samutpaada.cabda.h >>praadurbhaave vartate / >> >> Muulamadhyamakaarikaas (Madhyamikasuutras) de Naagaarjuna avec la >>Prasannapadaa >> Commentaire de Candrakiirti, ed. by de la Valee Poussin,Bibliotheca >>Buddhica 4. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> $B!y!y!y (B >> KIM Jae-sung >> Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies >> University of Tokyo >> e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp >> Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Mon Oct 5 10:48:21 1998 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 12:48:21 +0200 Subject: Pa~NjaramahAkAla: a query Message-ID: <161227041644.23782.13548402178391392378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, does anyone know anything about a figure derived by bhairava, namely pa~NjaramahAkAla, who in Tibet is known under the name of mgur.mgon? Any news about this character would be useful for me. Thank You, Alberto Pelissero via Belvedere 51 10028 Trofarello (TO) I T A L Y tel. +39-11-649.03.03 (home) tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Mon Oct 5 10:51:33 1998 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 12:51:33 +0200 Subject: pa~NjaramahAkAla: a query Message-ID: <161227041646.23782.1706423782112322236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the List, does anyone know anything about a figure derived from bhairava, namely pa~NjaramahAkAla, who in Tibet is known under the name of mgur.mgon? Any news about this character would be useful to me. Thank You Alberto Pelissero via Belvedere 51 10028 Trofarello (TO) I T A L Y tel. +39-11-649.03.03 (home) tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Mon Oct 5 10:52:59 1998 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 12:52:59 +0200 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227041648.23782.12018943266085924084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for duplicating my query. I apologize. Alberto Pelissero via Belvedere 51 10028 Trofarello (TO) I T A L Y tel. +39-11-649.03.03 (home) tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Oct 5 17:54:19 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 18:54:19 +0100 Subject: Forum on India's Fresh Water- Tues. Oct. 13 (fwd) Message-ID: <161227041655.23782.7994256555059988921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A bit remote from indology, but perhaps the study of pre-modern water should be thought of more... DW ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:18:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Nancy Braxton To: dhirc at columbia.edu Subject: Forum on India's Fresh Water- Tues. Oct. 13 On the On the Occasion of the Workshop,"Towards a Colloquium on Water Diplomacy: >From Crisis to Opportunity", The Italian Academy for Advanced Studies at Columbia University, the Water Initiative at Columbia University, and the Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center at Columbia University, present: INDIA'S FRESH WATER; NEEDS AND POLICIES Tuesday, October 13, 1998, 9:30 am - 12:00 noon. Casa Italiana, Columbia University, 1161 Amsterdam Ave., NY, NY 10027 Chairs: Gourisankar Ghosh (The Water, Environment and Sanitation Section, UNICEF) Malti Sinha (Ministry of Environment and Forests, Government of India) Colloquiumn Coordinator: Dr. Erik Mortensen For Information and RSVP: tel 212-854-3151; fax - 212-854-5522; email: itacademy at columbia.edu From cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Mon Oct 5 23:43:02 1998 From: cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (George Cardona) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 19:43:02 -0400 Subject: upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat Message-ID: <161227041657.23782.9438007973109835700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As an addendum to Elliot's message: In the Vaiyaakara.nbhuu.sa.na (p. 212 of K. P. Trivedi's edition) on kaarikaa 45, Kau.n.dabha.t.ta explicitly says the third verse cited is by someone other than Kumaarila: iti caanyai.h. >In the passage referred to by Madhav Deshpande, kau.n.dabha.t.ta.h cites >only two verses from tantravaartikam to miimaa.msaasuutram 1.3.33 >(Anandashrama SS edition, 1970 A,D. reprint, 250.10-13). The >vaiyaakara.nabhuu.sa.nasaara.h passage in question reads (as edited by >Balakrsna Pancholi, in Kashi Sanskrit Series 188; Varanasi, 1969 printing; >377.3-378.2): > >ukta.m caak.rtyadhikara.navaarttike > caturvidhe pade caatra dvividhasyaarthanir.naya.h / > kriyate sa.mzayotpatternopasarganipaatayo.h // > tayorarthaabhidhaane hi vyaapaaro naiva vidyate / > yadarthadyotakau tau tu vaacaka.h sa vicaaryate // iti //. > > upasarge.na dhatvartho balaadanya.h pratiiyate / > prahaaraahaaravihaaraparihaaravat // iti // >atropasargapada.m nipaatopalak.sa.nam / dhaatupada.m padaantarasyeti bodhyam // > >As I read it, the first *iti* (after the second verse) ends the domain of >*ukta.m caak.rtyadhikara.navaarttike*. The third verse is introduced >without ascription, and followed by a brief comment. > >It should further be noted that sthiramati.h, the author of the >madhyaantavibhaaga.tiikaa, seems to have lived in the 6th century A.D., >while kumaarila.h evidently was active in the first half of the 7th century >A.D. > >That said, it seems clear that the verse is not kumaarila's. > >Elliot Stern > > >>The verse that I have come across in the grammatical literature has a >>slightly different reading: >> upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anya.h pratiiyate / >> prahaaraahaarasa.mhaaravihaaraparihaaravat // >>The reference in front of me is from Kau.n.dabha.t.ta's Vaiyaakara.na- >>bhuu.sa.nasaara (Nipaataarthanir.naya section), edited by Tarakeshwar >>Shastri Chaturvedi, Adarsha Granthamala, No. 2, Varanasi, 1965, p. 377. >>Here, this verse is among the verses introduced with the comment: ukta.m >>caak.rtyadhikara.navaarttike. This must be Tantravaarttika of Kumaarila >>on Miimaa.msaasuutra 1.3.33 (aak.rtis tu kriyaarthatvaat). Check the >>Anandrashrama edition of MS (with bhaazya and vaarttika), Pt. I, pp. >>302ff. I have this reference from one of my own earlier publications, and >>I don't have that volume at hand at the moment. >> >> Madhav Deshpande >> >>On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won) wrote: >> >>> Dear Indology Listmembers: >>> >>> Does anyone know another locations of following zloka, especially the >>> locations in the vyakaara.na literatures. >>> >>> upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / >>> ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // >>> >>> I already know this zloka is in the MadhyaantavibhaagaTikaa (Pandeya ed. >>> p. 5). >>> >>> The context is following. >>> >>> [p.5] >>> etir gatyartha.h / prati.h praaptyartha.h /upasargavazena >>>dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat / >>> >>> upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / >>> ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // >>> >>> pratiitya zabdo'tra lyabanta.h praaptaavapek.saayaa.m vartate / >>> samutpuurva.h padi.h praadurbhaavaartha iti samutpaada.cabda.h >>>praadurbhaave vartate / >>> >>> Muulamadhyamakaarikaas (Madhyamikasuutras) de Naagaarjuna avec la >>>Prasannapadaa >>> Commentaire de Candrakiirti, ed. by de la Valee Poussin,Bibliotheca >>>Buddhica 4. >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> $B!y!y!y (B >>> KIM Jae-sung >>> Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies >>> University of Tokyo >>> e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp >>> > > >Elliot M. Stern >552 South 48th Street >Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >USA > >telephone: 215 747 6204 From umadevi at SFO.COM Tue Oct 6 03:52:03 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 20:52:03 -0700 Subject: Devaraja Message-ID: <161227041660.23782.13224036493765685120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Could someone recommend an article about Devaraja in South India (vs. Southeast Asia) ? Many Thanks, Mary Storm From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Oct 5 22:01:20 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 23:01:20 +0100 Subject: [SV: some op/old books on India & British India] In-Reply-To: <19981003140153.4665.qmail@www0b.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227041662.23782.4337470464818783188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Lars and Dr SK, you would be surprised at how many booksellers there are who are very keen to post their book lists to the INDOLOGY list, and at the size of their lists. If this door were opened we would find a lot of such postings, increasing bandwidth significantly, to the detriment of our more modestly-funded members. Many of these book lists are *very* long, and very repetitive, repetitive, repetitive. In my opinion this is not an appropriate use of our list. I am more than happy a) for booksellers to post *notices* to INDOLOGY saying that they have a new list of books, and giving us its URL, or inviting members to request it privately by email; b) to provide a page of URL links to booksellers, which I do as part of the INDOLOGY web pages. These booksellers can then make whatever information they wish available to us. In my view, the above two facilities surely meet the wishes of booksellers and of us scholars very fully. I can't see that our needs as scholars would be better served by the inclusion of many lists of books in our email. Apart from other reasons, this is a most inconvenient way of consulting such information: a web site is much better, and easier to deal with. --- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Oct 6 15:57:44 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 08:57:44 -0700 Subject: [SV: [SV: some op/old books on India & British India]] Message-ID: <161227041668.23782.4672571626876973735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin wrote: (snip) > I accept the verdict of Dominik. As long as booksellers are able to tell us WHERE their lists may be found, the interests of both parties should be served. > (snip) I remember there is a website created by Dr. David Magier which lists the south asia book sellers; it is unfortunate, many of these booksellers do not have their own webpages. There should be someway to help create a resource list webpage of books on sale, on a website such as the indology website? Dr. Domink's point about repetitive lists is an issue to resolve, though. When I had met the Jayalakshmi Indology Bookseller in Chennai, I suggested that they could link up with Amazon or barnesandnoble and add the indology book lists... I have tried these two online booksellers who claim to list millions of books; even there, it is tough to get a good indology book list. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Oct 6 03:33:56 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 09:03:56 +0530 Subject: request for address Message-ID: <161227041659.23782.7080067107797604458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does any list member happen to have an address of Prof. E.A. Solomon (who is probably in Ahmedabad)? RZ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Oct 6 11:34:19 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 11:34:19 +0000 Subject: SV: [SV: some op/old books on India & British India] Message-ID: <161227041664.23782.5694933074772136900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >In response to Lars and Dr SK, you would be surprised at how many booksellers there are who are very keen to post their book lists to the INDOLOGY list, and at the size of their lists. If this door were opened we would find a lot of such postings, increasing bandwidth significantly, to the detriment of our more modestly-funded members. >I am more than happy >a) for booksellers to post *notices* to INDOLOGY saying that they have a new list of books, and giving us its URL, or inviting members to request it privately by email; >b) to provide a page of URL links to booksellers, which I do as part of the INDOLOGY web pages. These booksellers can then make whatever information they wish available to us. In my view, the above two facilities surely meet the wishes of booksellers and of us scholars very fully. I accept the verdict of Dominik. As long as booksellers are able to tell us WHERE their lists may be found, the interests of both parties should be served. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2172 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bj462 at SCN.ORG Wed Oct 7 02:59:09 1998 From: bj462 at SCN.ORG (Bradley A. Esparza) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 19:59:09 -0700 Subject: some op/old books on India & British India Message-ID: <161227041669.23782.17925567970710564361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In response to Lars and Dr SK, you would be surprised at how many >booksellers there are who are very keen to post their book lists to the >INDOLOGY list, and at the size of their lists. If this door were opened >we would find a lot of such postings, increasing bandwidth significantly, >to the detriment of our more modestly-funded members. I have only 1MB of space to store my mail. I appreciate the book lists, however, if receive them with other large files from other lists, then I run the risk of my box filling up, not receiving other mail, being shunted off those lists and having to figure out which lists I have to resubscribe to. So, yes, URLs are a good idea! Bradley A. Esparza bj462 at scn.org >Dominik Wujastyk >http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Oct 7 14:15:04 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 10:15:04 -0400 Subject: upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat In-Reply-To: <199810041616.BAA23225@hongo.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227041674.23782.10542475185075297817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From the emails from Elliot Stern and Cardona, it is clear that the corresponding verse in Kau.n.dabha.t.ta's works is not from Kumaarila. We do not yet know its source. However, I noticed that the second edition of Abhyankar and Shukla's Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar cites this verse under the word Upasarga with the reading that is found in the Madhyaantavibhaaga.tiikaa, without citing a reference for it. I doubt that Abhyankar and Shukla are citing this verse from this Buddhist commentary. The verse probably has undergone some transformations, but its history is not clear at the moment. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won) wrote: > Dear Indology Listmembers: > > Does anyone know another locations of following zloka, especially the > locations in the vyakaara.na literatures. > > upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / > ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // > > I already know this zloka is in the MadhyaantavibhaagaTikaa (Pandeya ed. > p. 5). > > The context is following. > > [p.5] > etir gatyartha.h / prati.h praaptyartha.h /upasargavazena dhaatvarthavipari.naamaat / > > upasarge.na dhaatvartho balaad anyatra niiyate / > ga.ggaasalilamaadhurya.m saagare.na yathaambhasaa // > > pratiitya zabdo'tra lyabanta.h praaptaavapek.saayaa.m vartate / > samutpuurva.h padi.h praadurbhaavaartha iti samutpaada.cabda.h praadurbhaave vartate / > > Muulamadhyamakaarikaas (Madhyamikasuutras) de Naagaarjuna avec la Prasannapadaa > Commentaire de Candrakiirti, ed. by de la Valee Poussin,Bibliotheca Buddhica 4. > > Thanks in advance. > > $B!y!y!y (B > KIM Jae-sung > Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies > University of Tokyo > e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp > From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Oct 7 09:21:42 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 11:21:42 +0200 Subject: librairies parisiennes In-Reply-To: <3610CFE4.5A82B12A@urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227041671.23782.17294916236875038416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Merci a tous ceux qui m'ont indique des librairies a Paris. Je n'ai pas trouve le van Buitenen mais rencontre des gens sympathiques. Querido "winnie fellow", Samuelian nao tienha o libro, mais de qualquer forma, muito obrigado. Um abrac,o. Liebe Ditte, franzoesisch "librairie" ist nicht Bibliothek, aber Buchhandlung. Auf jeden Fall, vielen Dank. Mit herzlichen Gruessen. Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Oct 7 19:11:54 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 12:11:54 -0700 Subject: rare books, South Asian books on the web Message-ID: <161227041676.23782.17425185599392419624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Ruth Rickard has noticed this informative posting on the Buddhist discussion forum. I have tried the URLs indicated; they are useful search tools, to start with, before determining competitive price offers, ranging from small booksellers to online behemoths. Regards, Kalyanaraman From: Nikolai Vishnevsky Subject: For Book Worms -- book search sites To: BUDDHIST at LISTS.MCGILL.CA Here are the URLs of two book searching services. They are pretty nifty sights: write in the title of the book, or the name of the author, or oth, click on the button and a few seconds later you will receive info on the book, on the various online bookshops that carry it, and the different prices. Furthermore, if you decide to order, just click on your chosen bookstore and you are taken directly to the ordering window of that bookstore. Both sites are good and have substantial overlap, but each also searches bookstores the other does not search. So if you are looking for a rare book, it is worth it to search both places. As I learned through them, Amazon often is *not* the cheapest option. I heard of one site from a post in another forum, and of the other when a member of this list kindly sent a personal message informing me about it. Here they are: http://www.acses.com/ http://www.mxbf.com/ The MX bookfinder, by the way, also searches for used or out of print books(as long as they are in the databases of the online bookstores that carrythem.) One more thing: if you are in the US and want to order books printed in India that US bookstores rarely carry (e.g., Motilal Banarsidass, Manohar) a good bookstore to check is: http://www.southasiabooks.com You can browse through their catalogs, but I think theirs is not a secure site, so it is better to order over the phone (they give you very prompt service). Best, Kolya ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Oct 7 19:25:23 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 12:25:23 -0700 Subject: [rare books, South Asian books on the web] Message-ID: <161227041678.23782.18091368027150447880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, One more URL from Dr. David Magier's web: South Asia book vendors, exporters and publishers (also has a link to UPenn South Asia Book Dealers and Online bookshops): http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/pubs.html Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Wed Oct 7 10:42:44 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 12:42:44 +0200 Subject: Rice on Tilak Message-ID: <161227041672.23782.13449804672528054810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 1 Oct 98 at 14:09, Harsha V. Dehejia wrote: > > Indologists: > > There are many reasons why rice is used on vermillion when applying a = > tilak. Some reasons are simple or practical: rice is small and white and = > stays on the tilak. > > But the more important reason is husked rice, as opposed to other = > cereals or lentils, does not sprout. It is beyond growth and decay and = > therefore complete, whole. > > Anthropoligically rice is more ancient than wheat in India. The = > Dravidian connection cited by you is an interesting one. > > Th tilak which is a bindu is analogous to the anusvara, a sign of = > purnatva or fullness. A grain that is full and complete, and which is = > not susbject to birth and death through growth, only can augment the = > tilak and none other. > > I would welcome any comments. > > Harsha V. Dehejia > hdehejia at ccs.carleton.ca See G. Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi, "The Foods Disliked by the Gods in South India", Annali dell' Istituto Universitario Orientali di Napoli 37 (N.S. 27), 1977, 357-373. Regards Klaus From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed Oct 7 21:29:05 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 17:29:05 -0400 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227041666.23782.1610808483572468762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry to bother the list. I am not able to find the new address and email of Dr. Max Nihom. Thanks for helping me -- eg -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 8 01:44:31 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 18:44:31 -0700 Subject: Fwd: tt Message-ID: <161227041680.23782.8417661484226981958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. P. Claus wrote on 3/5/98 for which an interesting parallel from Tamilnadu: In the Kongunadu region, Pandarams are the non-brahman priests tending to the village goddesses (Mariyamman, BhadrakALi, ..) They are Viirasaivaites and I think there is a paper by Brenda Beck on them- okacanti jangama paNDaarams (can get the ref. later). Beck studied the Kongu oral epic, aNNanmAr katai like what G. Roghair did Andhra. On Sivaratri night called 'paLLayam', and next day is 'tombaram' in BhadrakaaLi temples. The temple jewelry stays in the village headman's house year long in a box (peTTige of Claus) wrapped in red cloth. On Sivaratri night, the 'box' is taken to Kali's temple. Inside the box, few necklaces, the 'taali' maangalya suutram, a face, chest, legs, hands, a trident vEl, a small umbrella - all in silver/gold. The box is opened only in the temple and only once a year. The next day, men take 20 to 30 huge vEls ('spears' about 10 feet high) along with priest, other folks to a nearby river, wash them, decorate them with garlands, kumkum, lemons, etc., The paNDaaram gets frenzy, utters shaman-like sayings on rain, crops, why the goddess needs a big temple, future prospects of villagers, ... He throws the cast iron arrow-bow few times to his back. The arrow piercings bleed, people spray vibhuuti on those wounds. He gets back to normalcy from this 'veRiyaaTTu' after a while. He then uses leaves, garlands, and all the Goddess' body parts (from the box) and a pot to create a lovely little-girl like image. The deity's image in the pot is carried back on his head to the temple surrounded by trees. More alamkAram is done in the temple (all dismantled after that day). There is public feasting. Hope some like Drs. N. Vanamaamalai, Richard Brubaker, P. Claus, ... write more on substratum religion of South India. Eagerly looking for the future book on Mariyamman by Dr. W. Harman. Like the excellent study of Draupadi amman worship by Vanniyar by Prof. Hiltebeitel. Regards, N. Ganesan ***************************************************************** On Sat, 2 May 1998, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > "brahma-padArtha" is put into the idol by a non-Brahmin tribal priest, > who is blindfolded when he transfers it from the old idol. It might be a > tribal artefact that has nothing to do with either Buddhism or > Brahminism in its origins. > On Sun, 3 May 1998, Peter J. Claus wrote: That it is transferred by a "tribal" (an unfortunately meaningless term) with eyes closed, reminds me that the Kannada-speaking Kadu Gollas (who have their own temples inside their settlements) keep their 'idols' inside a box (peTTige) covered with red cloth. The box is NEVER opened except by the priest once every 20 years or so when the idols are washed in a river. Even then the priest is not supposed to look directly at them. When asked, many told me the idols were 'lingams'. Once, however, a priest decided it was Ok to show me what was in the box and it turned out to be small bells and other very old metal objects and a few small stones which could, arguably, be called lingams. This, as it turns out, is just like what peoples such as the Chenchu and Todas have in their temples. And (more to the point of this discussion) the idols/relics are associated with (in some sense the remains of) ancestoral deities: human ancestors who led heroic lives / died heroic deaths for whom Golla oral literature maintains long (4-6 hour recitation) ballad/epic stories. If (as I think Eschmann et. al. argue) the Puri temple was once a 'tribal' one, it is not hard to link the idea of a dead and buried ancestor (whose descendants would retain the right to perform some basic act of worship) being transformed into Jagganatha. In fact, Gollas perform rituals at a number of temples to which the general public (all other castes) come and receive prasada and other forms of blessings and cures. Some of these have become very big and famous. SOme are now (as many no doubt were in the past) are being taken over by Lingayats and Brahmans. The Gollas are not, of course, unique in ANY of this. This is a common substratum of South Indian (to include Chattisghar and Orissa, at least) religious culture. Unfortunately, with the concentration on Brahmanical ritual and Sanskrit in Indology, a broad (perhaps 60% of all people living in India partake in it!) and important variant of Indian culture is ignored. - Peter Claus ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 8 13:22:53 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 06:22:53 -0700 Subject: On substratum religion Message-ID: <161227041682.23782.15562753070720007934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My earlier posting was wrongly titled as "Fwd: tt". Sorry for the mistake. Its title is "On substratum religion". N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 8 13:37:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 06:37:20 -0700 Subject: On substratum religion Message-ID: <161227041683.23782.12288907434405646302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a reaction from one of my friends for my note posted to Indology. (It was wrongly titled as Fwd: tt. It should read 'On substratum religion') N. Ganesan ******************************************************************* Interesting note you sent me. Thank you. Similar situation in Tulunad. And I remember now discussing it with Brenda. There are remarkably strong similarities across the substratum of Hinduism you talk about. But I am afraid there are fewer and fewer people interested in studying it. The trend among the young Indian(-American) scholar (who are now making up the majority of researchers going to India from the US) is to study the 19th and 20th century in and around the cities (ie the population THEY came from, which makes up about 3-5% of India). This disturbs me, but it must please someone else (their dissertation advisors)! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Thu Oct 8 13:59:17 1998 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 09:59:17 -0400 Subject: Rice on Tilak In-Reply-To: <001801bded66$9e295d40$0ff87586@hdehejia> Message-ID: <161227041685.23782.3273303830237810844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Harsha V. Dehejia wrote: > > But the more important reason is husked rice, as opposed to other > cereals or lentils, does not sprout. It is beyond growth and decay and > therefore complete, whole. I'm not sure in what sense you mean this, but removal of the husk in any of these grains will prevent germination. Except, of course, under tissue culture conditions. --Geeta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Oct 8 15:24:58 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 10:24:58 -0500 Subject: THE PLUNDER CONTINUES In-Reply-To: <19981008133721.5282.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041689.23782.3174279090354449363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> THE PLUNDER CONTINUES http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/afghan/index.html *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Oct 8 14:27:36 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 10:27:36 -0400 Subject: for bookworms Message-ID: <161227041687.23782.12461550250461541819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following up the recent posting on Buddhist-L, here is a link for a very extensive listing of all online vendors and exporters of South Asian books, which I maintain as part of SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet). The list of vendors, many of whom maintain easy online databases with online ordering, is at: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/pubs.html David Magier Editor of SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Oct 8 17:54:15 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 10:54:15 -0700 Subject: [Re: On substratum religion] Message-ID: <161227041691.23782.17909969374239392874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > N. Ganesan cited:(snip)> Interesting note you sent me. Thank you. Similar situation in Tulunad.> And I remember now discussing it with Brenda. There are remarkably> strong> similarities across the substratum of Hinduism you talk about. (snip)> Anything to do with 'Mother Goddess' seems to be substratum! Perhaps, it may be not be completely appropriate to separate the religious beliefs as they evolved, say in the bronze age, into compartments of (substratum, aryan cosmos etc.) Maha_vrata is a good example; it is a winter solstice festival and heralds the start of agnis.t.oma as the sun moves from the zodiacal sign of capricorn to cancer. It is of course, substratum, winter harvest festival, po_ki (bhogi), bogha_li bighu, rohr.i. There are many instances of female divinities in the Rigveda, designated as devi_. Some trace the Mother Goddess concepts to Sumer and thence, the debate re: diffusion of ideas. Perhaps, another way to look at the issue is to coalesce the 'substratum of Hinduism' from a variety of sources: textual (classicss/epigraphs), anthropological (folk-beliefs?) Thanks to Ganesan and Mary Storm for the biblio on iconography of devi_; I am still struggling with understanding the icons of female divinities carrying weapons in multiple hands. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Oct 8 19:47:31 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 23:47:31 +0400 Subject: Ramayana comparisons Message-ID: <161227041713.23782.555763287129326052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Among many works on the issue of similiarities between the Ramayana and the Iliad the first ones that came to mind are: Nabaneeta Sen. Comparative Stadies in Oral Epic Poetry and the VAlmIki RAmAyaNa: a Report on the BAlakANDa. - JAOS,vol.86, 1966, n.4; J.L.Brockington. A Note on Mrs Sen's Article on the RAmAyaNa. - JAOS, vol.89, 1969, n.2; Two articles by Robert Antoine in "Jadavpur Journal of Comparative Literature", vol. 11, 1973, pp. 45-92; vol.12, 1974, pp.1-29 and his monograph: R.Antoine. Rama and the bards: Epic memory in the Ramayana. Calcutta, Writers Workshop, 1975. I think the most detailed comparison between the RAmAyaNa and Homer's poems was drawn by Pavel Grintser in: Drevneindijskij epos: Genezis i tipologija. Moskow, 1974. Unfortunately, this excellent book has not been yet translated from Russian into any other language. See, however, its reviews by J.de Jong in his Recent Russian Publication on the Indian Epic.- "Adyar Library Bull.", vol 39 (1975) and The Study of the MahAbhArata. A brief survey. Part II. - Hokke bunka kenkyu n.11, March 1984; see also W.Doniger (O'Flaherty) in "Religious Studies Review", vol.4, n.1. Jan. 1978, pp. 19-27. Best wishes, Yaroslav Vassilkov From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Oct 9 13:43:50 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 06:43:50 -0700 Subject: [SV: [Re: On substratum religion]] Message-ID: <161227041701.23782.11466722051914116581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote:> Excuse me, but isn't this a trifle too simple? As for mother goddesses, I would assume them to be something of an "archetype" since mothers are to be found everywhere. They do not necessarily have to be a substrate in Indo-European. But substrates DO exist, both in language and in culture. Mixing up Aryan Romanticism and the substrate idea in general as it is done here, seems quite misguided>. Misguided? Perhaps, we should start looking for the underlying methodological problems. When we use words such as 'Indo-European', 'Aryanization' we are using imprecisely defined and inadequately evidenced (archaeologically/epigraphically)ideas. Why not use another model, such as: Thousand flowers bloomed in various parts of the wide world and that there were CONTACTS among people? Why not look for features of indigenous evolution and growth, while searching for diffusion, e/immigration, invasions? Do we have adequate methods and disciplines (apart from archaeology and anthropology) to isolate the indigenous from the diffusionary of the neolithic age? Language seems to take us too far into the mists of time. Phonetics is only one small feature of language... Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 9 12:28:25 1998 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 08:28:25 -0400 Subject: [Re: On substratum religion] In-Reply-To: <19981008175418.20936.qmail@www0l.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227041695.23782.842441378935614524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Anything to do with 'Mother Goddess' seems to be substratum! Perhaps, it may >be not be completely appropriate to separate the religious beliefs as they >evolved, say in the bronze age, into compartments of (substratum, aryan cosmos >etc.) I agree completely. The idea of "substrate" has been a dangerous one from the C. XIX on. It is especially virulent in Indo-European studies and ranges from the idea that there were no retroflex consonants in the "pure" or "original" Rg Veda (most importantly, that there was no __differentiation__ between palatal and retroflex) to Marija Gimbutas' hypothesis that the neolithic urban cultures of the Balkans and Asia Minor became the peaceful, matriarchal substrate overwashed by the violent, patriarchal Indo-Europeans. The substrate idea is just the compliment, the necessary apposite, of that nauseating, Aryan Romanticism we so abhor. Yours, W. Trimble From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 9 08:21:49 1998 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 09:21:49 +0100 Subject: Ramayana comparisons In-Reply-To: <01BDF394.F4B8C0E0@ti34a25-0118.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227041699.23782.8328124932790579552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of comparative studies (book or article) of the Ramayana and the Odyssey? The Ramayana and King Arthur? I know of Gregory Alles work on the Iliad and the Ramayana. Any information will be most appreciated. John Grimes MSU From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Fri Oct 9 13:55:08 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 14:55:08 +0100 Subject: Ramayana comparisons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041704.23782.8259085612187028050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anyone know of comparative studies (book or article) of the Ramayana > and the Odyssey? The Ramayana and King Arthur? I know of Gregory Alles work > on the Iliad and the Ramayana. The following may be of some help, which I read 2 weeks ago: Sita and Helen, Ahalya and Alcmena: A Comparative Study Wendy Doniger, History of Religions, Volume 37, Number 1, August 1997, pp. 21-49 Regards, --Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Oct 9 14:55:30 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 14:55:30 +0000 Subject: SV: [Re: On substratum religion] Message-ID: <161227041697.23782.6826204841695387672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Anything to do with 'Mother Goddess' seems to be substratum! Perhaps, it may >be not be completely appropriate to separate the religious beliefs as they >evolved, say in the bronze age, into compartments of (substratum, aryan cosmos >etc.) W. Trimble wrote: I agree completely. The idea of "substrate" has been a dangerous one from the C. XIX on. It is especially virulent in Indo-European studies and ranges from the idea that there were no retroflex consonants in the "pure" or "original" Rg Veda (most importantly, that there was no __differentiation__ between palatal and retroflex) to Marija Gimbutas' hypothesis that the neolithic urban cultures of the Balkans and Asia Minor became the peaceful, matriarchal substrate overwashed by the violent, patriarchal Indo-Europeans. The substrate idea is just the compliment, the necessary apposite, of that nauseating, Aryan Romanticism we so abhor. Excuse me, but isn't this a trifle too simple? As for mother goddesses, I would assume them to be something of an "archetype" since mothers are to be found everywhere. They do not necessarily have to be a substrate in Indo-European. But substrates DO exist, both in language and in culture. Mixing up Aryan Romanticism and the substrate idea in general as it is done here, seems quite misguided. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2364 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Oct 9 13:40:44 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 15:40:44 +0200 Subject: XI World Sanskrit Conference (1st circ.) Message-ID: <161227041702.23782.16406246092161563321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (1st Circular) Dear Colleagues, We are happy to announce that the XI World Sanskrit Conference will be held at the CESMEO, Turin (Italy), April from the 3rd to 8th, 2000. CESMEO is the International Institute for Advanced Studies, I-10123 Torino, Via Cavour 17. Fax: +39+11+545031 As for the Subject areas, there will be: A General Section dealing with 1. Sanskrit Language and Literature, 2. Sanskrit Grammar and Linguistics, 3. Veda and Vedangas, 4. Epics and Puranas, 5. Religion and Philosophy, 6. Hinduism, 7. Buddhism, 8. Jainism, and altogether 5 Workshops on the following subject areas 1. Architecture, Fine Arts and Aesthetics, 2. Classical Sanskrit Literature, 3. Scientific and Technical Literature, 4. Dharma Shastra and Artha Shastra, 5. Agamas and Tantras. The closest airports are those of Turin and Milan (with frequent train connections to Torino, Porta Nuova). April 2nd will be the day of arrivals, April 8th and 9th the days of departures. The participation form should be returned by December 31st, 1998. The second circular with detailed information about the programme, accomodation, etc. will be sent to those scholars who have replied by that date. Let us know if you are available also by fax. Please note that priority will be given to individual and national members of the IASS, who do not have to pay any registration fee. The Conference fee for participants who are not members of the IASS amounts to US$ 50. With kind regards, The President Oscar Botto ************************************************************* Soon you will find more info on CESMEO, the 1st circular and the participation form on a page dedicated to the Conference in the *Asiatica Association* home page: http://www.asiatica.org/ -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ************************************************* From khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Oct 9 14:29:31 1998 From: khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Katja Hofmann) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 16:29:31 +0200 Subject: R.si Loma'sa Message-ID: <161227041706.23782.8511930008273971544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> efeoci wrote: > > Dear Members, > > I am Meera Pramila searching for information on identity and or legend > > of R.si Loma'sa or Roma'sa, for a friend who is in Himachal Pradesh, > India, writing about the Ravalsa Lake area, sacred to Padmasambhava, > where there is an important shrine to R.si Loma'sa and excellent > image. > The local people say he did one lakh times one lakh years of tapas > there. He is mentioned in Puraa.na-s, stories by him appear in > Mahaabhaarat, but we cannot find identifying > references. If any scholars know anything at all that would give > us background on this R.si would they kindly > let us know? > > with thanks, > > Meera Pramila, > student of Hinduism Maybe you can find something in Hazra, R.C."Studies in the Puranic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs", Delhi, 1.ed. 1940 (pp.58-63,77,92-93,99-100) ? But there the author is speaking about Lomahar.sa.na, a sage, could this be the same ? greetings, K. Hofmann From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Fri Oct 9 14:33:24 1998 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 16:33:24 +0200 Subject: Ramayana comparisons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041707.23782.4686508499477209310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anyone know of comparative studies (book or article) of the Ramayana >and the Odyssey? The Ramayana and King Arthur? I know of Gregory Alles work >on the Iliad and the Ramayana. > >Any information will be most appreciated. > >John Grimes >MSU On the sublject, there was also a comparison between the Iliad and the Ramayana by an Indian scholar in the beginning of the '80, now published as a book, but not very valuable according to me. The best comparisons are made by the Oxonian anthropologist Nick Allen in various articles. See also Christophe VIELLE, Le mytho-cycle h?ro?que dans l'aire indo-europ?enne: correspondances et transformations hell?no-aryennes, Louvain-la-Neuve, 1996, Publications de l'Institut orientaliste de Louvain 46 (in a non-dumezilian, and non "proto-"Indo-European, perspective: review in the last JRAS). There are much more to compare between the story of Rama and the Heracles cycle! Christophe Vielle From kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Oct 9 22:01:26 1998 From: kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 17:01:26 -0500 Subject: Lecture Abstract In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041715.23782.5738797998483659399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: Please find the lecture astract by Prof. Michael Witzel, Harvard University. You can view the maps and charts that go with the abstract at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/SthAsiaSemFall98.html Michael Witzel Austin, Sept. 17, 1998 Harvard University TOWARDS A HISTORY OF ETHNOGENESIS AND SETTLEMENT OF SOUTH ASIA (1) The prehistoric period * list of S.Asian languages and substrates * the Indus civilization * end of the Indus civ.: return to the villages (2) The Rgvedic period * RV evidence: two waves of immigration early immigration & acculturation: Yadu-Turvasa, Anu-Druhyu the second wave: Puru and Bharata * Language "x", (Para-)Munda, not Dravidian substrate * Later RV: Immigration of Drav. speakers: amalgation of Indo-Aryans and Dravidians, stratification: the Purusa hymn (3) The Kuru Realm * Emergence of the Kuru tribe: restructuring of society, ritual, texts: planned Sanskritization, amalgamation of all elements present, under brahma-ksatra leadership * Kuruksetra/Madhyadesa base, Painted Gray Ware Civilization; expansion towards East and South emergence of Pancala tribe and shift towards U.P. (4) The east * the linguistic situation: Indo-Aryan (with Indus and language "X" substrates and Drav.adstrate); Munda and Tib.-Burmese adstrates; late Vedic immigration: Brahmins, Malla, Vrji (Vajji), Sakya * Sanskritization of the East: Videgha Mathava legend, Vasistha and the eastern tribes; 'Aryanization' of the east; canon formation * background for the Buddha and Mahavira not the 'static' society of the Kuru-Pancala, but a fluid situation; second urbanization (5) Results * no simple solutions, no black/white picture * many distinct (micro-)processes lead to innovations * necessity for many more detailed investigations of substrates, dialect variants, social setup & developments, the economy & archaeology of the areas concerned before a definite history of the period can be writen At present, we have only models. ====================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Wales Prof. of Sanskrit Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Oct 9 15:10:39 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 17:10:39 +0200 Subject: R.si Loma'sa In-Reply-To: <361E1DCB.2B7E@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227041709.23782.9266651320656001205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >efeoci wrote: >> >> Dear Members, >> >> I am Meera Pramila searching for information on identity and or legend >> >> of R.si Loma'sa or Roma'sa, for a friend who is in Himachal Pradesh, >> India, writing about the Ravalsa Lake area, sacred to Padmasambhava, >> where there is an important shrine to R.si Loma'sa and excellent >> image. >> The local people say he did one lakh times one lakh years of tapas >> there. He is mentioned in Puraa.na-s, stories by him appear in >> Mahaabhaarat, but we cannot find identifying >> references. If any scholars know anything at all that would give >> us background on this R.si would they kindly >> let us know? >> >> with thanks, >> >> Meera Pramila, >> student of Hinduism >Maybe you can find something in >Hazra, R.C."Studies in the Puranic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs", >Delhi, 1.ed. 1940 (pp.58-63,77,92-93,99-100) ? >But there the author is speaking about Lomahar.sa.na, a sage, could this >be the same ? >greetings, >K. Hofmann No, Lomahar.sa.na (the suuta, father of Ugra'sravas who recites the Mahabharata) does not seem to be the same person as Loma'sa, the rishi who accompanies the Pandavas on their tiirthayaatraa (Mbh. III) as a kind of religious guide who tells them a lot of stories. See also Vettam Mani, Puranic Encyclopaedia, Delhi 1975. Apparently, little else is known about this Loma'sa. Regards, Georg v. Simson From efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 9 12:19:41 1998 From: efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (efeoci) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 17:19:41 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227041693.23782.2801354917663495695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I am Meera Pramila searching for information on identity and or legend of R.si Loma'sa or Roma'sa, for a friend who is in Himachal Pradesh, India, writing about the Ravalsa Lake area, sacred to Padmasambhava, where there is an important shrine to R.si Loma'sa and excellent image. The local people say he did one lakh times one lakh years of tapas there. He is mentioned in Puraa.na-s, stories by him appear in Mahaabhaarat, but we cannot find identifying references. If any scholars know anything at all that would give us background on this R.si would they kindly let us know? with thanks, Meera Pramila, student of Hinduism -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 667 bytes Desc: not available URL: From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 9 16:19:13 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 21:19:13 +0500 Subject: R.si Loma'sa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041711.23782.12045692427180014631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> He is also known as rOmaza. (ra-layOrabhEdaH) As far as I remember he is one of those few who are supposed to have extremely high longevity (chiranjIvis). He supposed to loose one hair on his body at the end of each kalpa, and he is supposed to die after he looses all the hairs. You will find references to him in the vanaparva, anuzAsanikaparva, and zAntiparva of Mahabharata. regards, sarma. At 05:10 PM 10/9/98 +0200, you wrote: >>efeoci wrote: >>> >>> Dear Members, >>> >>> I am Meera Pramila searching for information on identity and or legend >>> >>> of R.si Loma'sa or Roma'sa, for a friend who is in Himachal Pradesh, >>> India, writing about the Ravalsa Lake area, sacred to Padmasambhava, >>> where there is an important shrine to R.si Loma'sa and excellent >>> image. >>> The local people say he did one lakh times one lakh years of tapas >>> there. He is mentioned in Puraa.na-s, stories by him appear in >>> Mahaabhaarat, but we cannot find identifying >>> references. If any scholars know anything at all that would give >>> us background on this R.si would they kindly >>> let us know? >>> >>> with thanks, >>> >>> Meera Pramila, >>> student of Hinduism >>Maybe you can find something in >>Hazra, R.C."Studies in the Puranic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs", >>Delhi, 1.ed. 1940 (pp.58-63,77,92-93,99-100) ? >>But there the author is speaking about Lomahar.sa.na, a sage, could this >>be the same ? >>greetings, >>K. Hofmann > >No, Lomahar.sa.na (the suuta, father of Ugra'sravas who recites the >Mahabharata) does not seem to be the same person as Loma'sa, the rishi who >accompanies the Pandavas on their tiirthayaatraa (Mbh. III) as a kind of >religious guide who tells them a lot of stories. See also Vettam Mani, >Puranic Encyclopaedia, Delhi 1975. Apparently, little else is known about >this Loma'sa. >Regards, >Georg v. Simson > > From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sat Oct 10 02:55:50 1998 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 22:55:50 -0400 Subject: SV: [Re: On substratum religion] In-Reply-To: <01BDF394.F4B8C0E0@ti34a25-0118.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227041716.23782.6697983222005164967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Excuse me, but isn't this a trifle too simple? As for mother goddesses, I would assume them to be something of an "archetype" since mothers are to be found everywhere. They do not necessarily have to be a substrate in Indo-European. But substrates DO exist, both in language and in culture. Mixing up Aryan Romanticism and the substrate idea in general as it is done here, seems quite misguided. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse My point is exactly that it is all a bit too simple. Too simple, for example, to view all male divinities as of the hegemonic group, "superstratum," and all female divinities as in the substratum. Too simple to view all retroflex consonants as Dravidian and all palatals as Indo-European. I would argue, in fact, that it is not misguided, but a categorical imperative to view the "substrate" idea as the apposite of Aryan Romanticism. This does not mean that substrates do not exist. But we have to be careful and not use them as a kind of compost pile in which all things that seem not to fit into the dominant, recorded culture are heaped. W. Trimble From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Oct 10 07:53:30 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 98 09:53:30 +0200 Subject: R.si Loma'sa In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981009211913.0082b5b0@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227041719.23782.5750535308260915955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >He is also known as rOmaza. (ra-layOrabhEdaH) > >As far as I remember he is one of those few who are supposed to >have extremely high longevity (chiranjIvis). He supposed to loose >one hair on his body at the end of each kalpa, and he is supposed to die >after he looses all the hairs. You will find references to him in >the vanaparva, anuzAsanikaparva, and zAntiparva of Mahabharata. > >regards, > >sarma. More precisely, you'll find the RSi lomaza in MBh at (Calcutta ed.): I,437,438 III,1171 III,1879,1884,1910 III,8266 from III,8407 where he meets the pANDavas to accompany them on the tIrthayAtrA until III,12337 where he is going to heaven, he tells the legends attached to the tIrthas (many refs to him). III,16919 XI,776 XII,1594 near the bhISma's arrow-bed XIII,6087 XIII,7121 XIII,7672 one of the north's RSis In the last you'll find also lomaharSaNa, an other north's RSi, who is the father of ugrazravas. From XII,4934 until 5096, lomaza is the name of a cat. The romazas are a people in II,1850. If you know the Sanskrit name of a tIrtha near the Ravalsa lake, I can try to find it in the tIrthayAtrA of the MBh. Hoping to help, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Oct 10 08:12:23 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 98 10:12:23 +0200 Subject: SV: [Re: On substratum religion] In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981009225550.007b3390@postoffice.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227041721.23782.4917648381652797829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >My point is exactly that it is all a bit too simple. Too simple, for >example, to view all male divinities as of the hegemonic group, >"superstratum," and all female divinities as in the substratum. Too simple >to view all retroflex consonants as Dravidian and all palatals as >Indo-European. I would argue, in fact, that it is not misguided, but a >categorical imperative to view the "substrate" idea as the apposite of >Aryan Romanticism. This does not mean that substrates do not exist. But >we have to be careful and not use them as a kind of compost pile in which >all things that seem not to fit into the dominant, recorded culture are >heaped. > >W. Trimble I agree. It's absolutely ridiculous to see the Eurindians as "male warriors" only. They knew many Goddesses and I have established strong links between Aphrodite and Sri (unpublished but quoted in Bernard Sergent, Genese de l'Inde). We have the same plague in Greek studies where all Goddesses are commonly supposed from a "creto-aegean substratum", a post-romantic idea of a neolithic "Great Mother". Without any proof, except perhaps in the unconscious of some scholars ;-) Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Oct 10 12:34:30 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 98 13:34:30 +0100 Subject: R.si Loma'sa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041723.23782.17332331085963176598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:10 9.10.98 +0200, you wrote: >>efeoci wrote: >>> >>> Dear Members, >>> >>> I am Meera Pramila searching for information on identity and or legend >>> >>> of R.si Loma'sa or Roma'sa, for a friend who is in Himachal Pradesh, >>> India, writing about the Ravalsa Lake area, sacred to Padmasambhava, >>> where there is an important shrine to R.si Loma'sa and excellent >>> image. >>> The local people say he did one lakh times one lakh years of tapas >>> there. He is mentioned in Puraa.na-s, stories by him appear in >>> Mahaabhaarat, but we cannot find identifying >>> references. If any scholars know anything at all that would give >>> us background on this R.si would they kindly >>> let us know? >>> >>> with thanks, >>> >>> Meera Pramila, >>> student of Hinduism >>Maybe you can find something in >>Hazra, R.C."Studies in the Puranic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs", >>Delhi, 1.ed. 1940 (pp.58-63,77,92-93,99-100) ? >>But there the author is speaking about Lomahar.sa.na, a sage, could this >>be the same ? >>greetings, >>K. Hofmann > >No, Lomahar.sa.na (the suuta, father of Ugra'sravas who recites the >Mahabharata) does not seem to be the same person as Loma'sa, the rishi who >accompanies the Pandavas on their tiirthayaatraa (Mbh. III) as a kind of >religious guide who tells them a lot of stories. See also Vettam Mani, >Puranic Encyclopaedia, Delhi 1975. Apparently, little else is known about >this Loma'sa. >Regards, >Georg v. Simson > > --------------------------------- Information on where exactly rishi L. is mentioned in the Mbh. may also be found in S. Sorensen's "An Index to the Names in the Mahabharata. With Short Explanation and a Concordance to the Bombay and Calcutta Editions and P.C. Roy's Translation", London 1904, p. 448. Recent Indian reprint - if I recall rightly - by Motilal Banarsidas. A fairly detailed reconstruction of the route of the ideal tirthayatra (bhumandalapradaksina) is to be found in the commentaries to the Russian translation of the Aranyakaparva (Mahabharata. Kniga lesnaja (Aranjakaparva), Moskva 1987; see map shown on p. 633). There also an extensive bibliography. Among others: 1) Bhardwaj S. M., Hindu places of Pilgrimage in India (A Study in Cultural Geography), Berkeley-Los Angeles-London, 1973 2) Dey N. L., The Geographical dictionary of Ancient and Medieval India, L. 1927 3) Oakley E. S., Holy Himalaya, Edinbourgh-London, 1905 In his "History of Indian Literature" Winternitz mentions L. twice (Indian reprint of 1972, pp. 348, 401/402). The second mention brings - in a curious way - together Meera Pramila's quest with some recent postings on this list (problem of Agastya). Winternitz writes: "The Rsi Lomasa, who has come in order to console the brothers of Arjuna [who stays then for five years in Indra's heaven, A.K.], makes a pilgrimage with them. At every sacred place (Tirtha) which they visit, the rsi relates a story referring to that place. Thus there are collected in this section (certainly not belonging to the oldest parts of the Mahabharata) numerous brahmanical legends. Here we find, for example, the... legend of Cyavana, similarly the legends of the famous Rsi Agastya." While commenting on narrative (and compositional) devices used in the Mbh. to introduce secondary episodes, P. A. Grincer stressed the role of a particular class of personages who may willingly and knowledgeably answer all questions asked by their interlocutors. Rishi Lomasa is one of them ("Drevneindijskij epos. Genezis i tipologija", Moskva 1974, p. 117). So far, such personages have been treated as unimportant. They seem, however, to deserve a much better place than the backstage of indological studies. One is tempted to see in them a typified cultural functionary, whose role it is to put the exploits of "culture heroes", such as Agastya, into a relevant (be it pan-indic or regional) cultural perspective - to represent, interprete and multiply. Regards, Artur Karp From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Oct 10 13:29:04 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 98 14:29:04 +0100 Subject: Russian Translation of the MBh. Message-ID: <161227041725.23782.3425221278579392599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am truly sorry for an omission in my posting. The authors of the excellent Russian translation of Aranyakaparva are Y. V. Vasilkov and S. L. Neveleva. A. Karp From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 11 16:44:50 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 09:44:50 -0700 Subject: Edward Thomas (1813-1886) Message-ID: <161227041735.23782.18114017155210841989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A reference: Edward Thomas (1813-1886), The rivers of the Vedas and how the Aryans entered India, 1883, 30 p. (from JRAS, new ser., v. 15) This will have relevence today. Does he identify Ghaggar-Hakra river as Sarasvati of the Rigveda? Normally this identification is attributed to Sir Aurel Stein. But he did that only in 1941. (S. P. Gupta (ed.), An archaeological tour along the Ghaggar-Hakra river, Meerut, 1989) Can someone check please? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From umadevi at SFO.COM Sun Oct 11 17:24:03 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 10:24:03 -0700 Subject: Self-sacrificing Pets Message-ID: <161227041737.23782.5875309571348601079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, A few months ago there was a thread going about devoted pets and devoted pet owners. Recently, while reading the Rajatarangini I ran across an unusual reference to a cat who became sati upon the death of her master, King Sussala. It seems the modern tendency to anthropomorphize our pets is not new. Does anyone know of any other sati pets? Mary Storm From smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Sun Oct 11 14:53:20 1998 From: smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Sushil Mittal) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 10:53:20 -0400 Subject: Ramayana comparisons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041731.23782.6661456715287324109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:39 PM 10/11/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, john grimes wrote: > >> Does anyone know of comparative studies (book or article) of the Ramayana >> and the Odyssey? The Ramayana and King Arthur? > >Dr Nick Allen, the Oxford anthropologist, has written quite a bit in this >area, comparing Mbh and Ram. with IE materials from elsewhere. >Dumezilian. see, Nick Allen. 1997. The Indo-European prehistory of yoga. _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ 2, 1: 1-20. Dr Sushil Mittal University of Florida Department of Religion 125 Dauer Hall, PO Box 117410 Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410 Telephone (352) 392-1625 Telefax (352) 392-7395 E-mail smittal at religion.ufl.edu IJHS Homepage http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sun Oct 11 12:25:43 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 13:25:43 +0100 Subject: On substratum religion Message-ID: <161227041727.23782.5771223323008642710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique Thillaud wrote: > I agree. It's absolutely ridiculous to see the Eurindians as "male >warriors" only. They knew many Goddesses and I have established strong >links between Aphrodite and Sri (unpublished but quoted in Bernard Sergent, >Genese de l'Inde). Dominique Thillaud, "Les maris d'Helene eclairent-ils le Pantheon grec?", 1997 Incidentally I have just finished reading Sergent's book and asked for opinions on it on the "indoeuropean" list, even though the bulk of the book which has to do with IE seems entirely classical (if on the strict Dumezilian side for the last chapter) and not really problematic, and what raises some doubts in my mind is the short part that has to do with Dravidian, pp.45-84 and the linguistic affiliation of the IVC, pp.129-140. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 11 14:39:39 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 15:39:39 +0100 Subject: Ramayana comparisons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041729.23782.2960069748850048833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, john grimes wrote: > Does anyone know of comparative studies (book or article) of the Ramayana > and the Odyssey? The Ramayana and King Arthur? Dr Nick Allen, the Oxford anthropologist, has written quite a bit in this area, comparing Mbh and Ram. with IE materials from elsewhere. Dumezilian. --- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Oct 11 18:01:35 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 18:01:35 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: [Re: On substratum religion] Message-ID: <161227041733.23782.4119404940219914387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would argue, in fact, that it is not misguided, but a categorical imperative to view the "substrate" idea as the apposite of Aryan Romanticism. This does not mean that substrates do not exist. You lost me here. Somehow, this appears to be a contradictio in adjecto. But we have to be careful and not use them as a kind of compost pile in which all things that seem not to fit into the dominant, recorded culture are heaped. Here I follow you. You may always assume that substrates are at play when there are things you cannot explain in the normal manner, but such assumptions have little argumentative value. You have to give compelling reasons for assuming a substrate influence. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1896 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 12 01:07:41 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 18:07:41 -0700 Subject: On Agastya and Aryanization - 1 Message-ID: <161227041743.23782.3562938470663886863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Potters and the Indian priestly class have ancient connections. To add to the discussion of kOtu kulam, potters and their connection to "Siva cult: KaDuveLi Siddhar, in one of the most popular of all siddha poetry, calls "Siva as a potter. nanda van2attil Or aaNDi - avan2 naalaaRu maadamaayk kuyavan2ai vENDik koNDu vantaan2 oru tONDi - mettak kuuttaaDik kuuttaaDip pOTTu uDaittaaNDi "a beggar in a flower garden sought out for a potter, and pleaded for 10 long months- Prayers granted; the beggar brought forth a water pot. Then, what's the use? He danced frantically and slipped the pot. It became pieces" Here, beggar is Atman; potter is "Siva; pot is body; the dance is life... KaDuveLi uses "Siva explicitly few times elsewhere. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From garzilli at SHORE.NET Sun Oct 11 18:06:22 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 20:06:22 +0200 Subject: Self-sacrificing Pets Message-ID: <161227041739.23782.14468065446150158046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is also true the opposite, the sati of mistresses for their "pets" such as a famous queen of Babylon (whose I forgot the name now!) who commetted sati for her horse. You can find all the references -- and her name -- on E. Garzilli, "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems", IIJ ns. 3 and 4, 1997. Enrica p.s. please do not forget the famous female kapoti in the MhB who commetted sati. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** Mary Storm wrote: > > Dear Indologists, > A few months ago there was a thread going about devoted pets and devoted > pet owners. > Recently, while reading the Rajatarangini I ran across an unusual > reference to a cat who became sati upon the death of her master, King > Sussala. It seems the modern tendency to anthropomorphize our pets is > not new. > Does anyone know of any other sati pets? > Mary Storm -- From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Oct 12 02:24:05 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 22:24:05 -0400 Subject: Release: El.Journal of Vedic Studies 4.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041744.23782.9821192082989868149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are pleased to announce the recent publication of another issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. The journal is now in its 4th year and has well over 600 subscribers. Vol. 4, issue 1 (August 1998) contains the paper of Makoto Fushimi (Harvard U.), our new assistant editor. " Brahmana Passages in Apastamba-Srautasutra " see: www.shore.net /~india/ejvs This the first issue that is made available on the net at once in various formats (PDF, DVI, PS). A few early issues have been available in PDF format and are readable by acroreader (downloadable from our web site). At present, all issues since 1995 are on our web site the way they have been published, that is in simple (7 bit) ASCII format using the Kyoto-Harvard transcription. They can be read and downloaded in this format. Other formats of these earlier issues are to be added soon, as to facilitate reading and printing with the usual Indological transcription. M. Witzel , ed. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 11 22:25:45 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 98 23:25:45 +0100 Subject: [Book announcement] Oguibenine, Essays in Vedic and IE Culture. Message-ID: <161227041741.23782.6290665816272027673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am delighted to forward notice of the following: -- Boris Oguibenine, Essays in Vedic and Indo-European Culture, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1998, 257 pp. Price: Rs. 495. Addresses for orders are: In Europe: MotilalBks at ao1.com Motilal Books 73 Lime Walk, Headington Oxford OX3 7AD (U.K.) In India: gloryindia at poboxes.com Motilal Banarsidass 40 U.A. Bungalow Road Jawahar Nagar Delhi 110007 India In USA and Canada: sabooks at juno.com P.O. Box 502 Columbia, MO 65205 USA From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Oct 12 14:26:12 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 09:26:12 -0500 Subject: Info On Zarthushtra In-Reply-To: <19981012010741.170.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041748.23782.3151577386937808201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello: I would appreciate any references regarding the family, relatives and contemporaries of Zarathushtra. Thanks in advance. Regards, S.Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Mon Oct 12 11:28:24 1998 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 11:28:24 +0000 Subject: Ramayana comparisons Message-ID: <161227041746.23782.2072348816711936870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A rather late but, I hope, still useful response to John Grimes' query. In addition to the items mentioned by Yarozlav Vassilkov, Christophe Vielle and others, there are the following items that spring to mind immediately. Others could be found by consulting the _Epic and Puranic Bibliography (up to 1985)_ (Purana Research Publications 3) Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden, 1992, or my _The Sanskrit Epics_, E. J. Brill, Leiden, 1998. N. J. Allen, "Arjuna and Odysseus: a comparative approach", _South Asia Library Newsgroup Newsletter_ 40, 1993, pp. 39-42. N. J. Allen, "The Hero's Five Relationships: A Proto-Indo-European Story", _Myth and Mythmaking_ (SOAS Collected Papers on South Asia, 12), Curzon, London, pp. 1-20. N. J. Allen, "Why did Odysseus become a horse?", _Journal of the Anthropological Society of Oxford_ 26.2, 1995, pp. 143-154. N. J. Allen, "Homer's Simile, Vyasa's Story", _Journal of Mediterannean Studies_ 6, 1996, pp. 206-18. Julian Baldick, _Homer and the Indo-Europeans: Comparing Mythologies_, I. B. Tauris, London, 1994. Isaiah Sundaram Peter, _Beowulf and the Ramayana: a study in epic poetry_, John Bale and Danielson, London, 1934. Jaan Puhvel, "Transposition of myth to saga in Indo-European epic narrative", _Antiguitates Indogermanicae, Gedenkschrift fur Herman Guntert, hrsg. von Manfred Mayrhofer u. a., Inst. fur Sprachwissenschaft, Innsbruck, 1974, pp. 175-184 These are of varying quality. John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 650 6804 From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Mon Oct 12 20:42:07 1998 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 15:42:07 -0500 Subject: Info On Zarthushtra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041751.23782.17751300655701713774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste, Check out http://www.zarathushtra.com Thanks, ~sumedh SNS writes: > Hello: > > I would appreciate any references regarding the family, relatives and > contemporaries of Zarathushtra. > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > S.Subrahmanya > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* > * ? * > * * > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Oct 13 05:01:18 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 22:01:18 -0700 Subject: [Rigveda online] Message-ID: <161227041755.23782.10980076860246045732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sumeedh, Using Sa_yan.a's commentary and based on Wilson's English translation, an online version is coming up on http://sarasvati.simplenet.com. So far, translations and notes on man.d.ala 1, su_ktas 1 to 105 have been posted and updates are ongoing. On the index page of the sarasvati web, a number of links are provided to the html, pdf and ms-word doc versions in romanized and devana_gari scripts. There is also a link to the full text of the Rigveda Sam.hita_ posted by the Aurobindo Institute, with an introductory essay by Prof. R.L.Kashyap and an index of subjects by man.d.ala, by su_kta and by hymn. Indology members are requested and welcome to post in their comments and pages on related topics, as they deem fit, at this Sarasvati web. Hopefully, in due course, these hymns will be linked to audio files... Regards, Kalyanaraman owner-indology at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK wrote: > Namaste, > > Could anyone point me to a english translation of the Rig Veda > online ?> > Thanks,> > > ~sumedh ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Tue Oct 13 03:10:48 1998 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 22:10:48 -0500 Subject: Rigveda online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041753.23782.16363953929321071469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste, Could anyone point me to a english translation of the Rig Veda online ? Thanks, ~sumedh From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Oct 13 05:26:23 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 00:26:23 -0500 Subject: Vedic Resource In-Reply-To: <19981013050118.2476.qmail@www0f.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227041758.23782.3117842244609811459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those of you looking for last minute facts about Vedic Literature or key terminology before heading to Madison--or if you're not headed to Madison and can spare some surfing time to see some of the new findings in Vedic studies--you are invited to the results of my study of the Vedic notion of the self, at: http://vedavid.org/diss/ Whether the terminology is of vital interest--topics such as Speech, the body, breath, and the mind are also addressed--the summary of the chronology of Vedic literature, early variations in Yajur Vedic literature, early sacrificial speculations, or of methodology may be of interest. Maybe even just the improved interface with convenient buttons for easy orientation, menus for precise navigation, and multiple windows may be of interest. It does not require additional fonts or plugins, just Netscape/Internet Explorer 3+ (Netscape Gold on a Windows machine works with the 3-dimensional Vedic Altar quite well). There is a help resource, a highlights link, abstract, bibliography and notes, all interlinked with the Vedic resources at Vedavid. I welcome your comments and thank you in advance for your time. Some files sizes are large-- the chapters are 150k, so slower modems may not be too enjoyable. 28800 at minimum, and preferably during off hours (like not at lunch time, Eastern Time, or 3:30-8:30pm). best wishes, jr __________________________ John Robert Gardner, Ph.D. http://vedavid.org/diss/ ____________________________________________________ Obermann Center & The Graduate College for Advanced Studies The University of Iowa ____________________________________________________ "Your dreams must always lead you beyond comfort" From abhanja at CAL.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 12 23:46:07 1998 From: abhanja at CAL.VSNL.NET.IN (Arup A. Bhanja) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 05:16:07 +0530 Subject: Vedic Mathematics Message-ID: <161227041765.23782.14890122364963230964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi everyone, I need good books on Vedic mathematics. can anyone help with suggestions? E-mail addresses will be welcome. regards, Arup A Bhanja From abhanja at CAL.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 12 23:56:28 1998 From: abhanja at CAL.VSNL.NET.IN (Arup A. Bhanja) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 05:26:28 +0530 Subject: Ganesh Puja Message-ID: <161227041767.23782.11909361769507090035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all, Looking for a good book on how to do Ganesh Puja regards, Arup From umadevi at SFO.COM Tue Oct 13 15:48:04 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 08:48:04 -0700 Subject: Self-sacrificing Pets Message-ID: <161227041779.23782.13154129600020031647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Garzilli Many thanks for your response, I shall pursue your references. Mary Enrica Garzilli wrote: > > It is also true the opposite, the sati of mistresses for their "pets" > such as a famous queen of Babylon (whose I forgot the name now!) who > commetted sati for her horse. You can find all the references -- and her > name -- on E. Garzilli, "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana > and Some Connected Problems", IIJ ns. 3 and 4, 1997. > > Enrica > > p.s. please do not forget the famous female kapoti in the MhB who > commetted sati. > -- > Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) > Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 > 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) > Editor-in-Chief, > Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies > htpp://www.asiatica.org/ > ***************************************************************** > > Mary Storm wrote: > > > > Dear Indologists, > > A few months ago there was a thread going about devoted pets and devoted > > pet owners. > > Recently, while reading the Rajatarangini I ran across an unusual > > reference to a cat who became sati upon the death of her master, King > > Sussala. It seems the modern tendency to anthropomorphize our pets is > > not new. > > Does anyone know of any other sati pets? > > Mary Storm > > -- From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Tue Oct 13 13:14:37 1998 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 09:14:37 -0400 Subject: Rasikapriya Message-ID: <161227041773.23782.540339721031614019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists: I am looking for a verse or two from Rasikapriya, the 17th century romantic text, which specifically describes the love of Shiva and Parvati. Many thanks. Harsha V . Dehejia Professor of Religion Carleton University, Ottawa, ON. Canada. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE Tue Oct 13 08:11:09 1998 From: u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 10:11:09 +0200 Subject: Hello Message-ID: <161227041760.23782.12444367736395788109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan, sorry for my delay ... just as the three months in India - also the few weeks since my return here were full of work. Now, I find a little gap and thinks of greeting you and your wife. I was, really, so sorry for not having been able to go to Pollachi. I was so much looking forward to it. If I can go to India next year, I will make it one of my very first undertakings. Will you please convey my regards to Dr. Arumukam and all you relatives there, to whom I spoke on the phone several times? Thank you. Am I mistaken, or has the "Tevar-Makan" house again featured in "Maru Malarcci" this year? Would like to read from you, all the best, till soon, Ulrike From u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE Tue Oct 13 08:12:35 1998 From: u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 10:12:35 +0200 Subject: private mail posting Message-ID: <161227041763.23782.2095619379127123653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SORRY SORRY SORRY fost posting my private mail to Mr. Ganesan over Indology-List. Just again a case of pressing the "Reply"-button to hastily. Ulrike From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 13 14:54:44 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 10:54:44 -0400 Subject: Your thesis In-Reply-To: <01BDF6B4.51C5B6E0@ti01a21-0110.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227041775.23782.146506818146343498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Hello Edwin! > > Has your thesis now been published? (Bibliographic data??) I plan to have it in the hands of Oxford U. Press for review by Jan come hell or high water. In honesty, other research projects are beckoning and I feel I have personally exhausted this topic intellectually. Dominik had asked me to post a position paper on Indology which I will do at some point (if everyone has not become sick to death of the I-A problem) but teaching pressures have brought all superfluous projects to a screeching halt for now. Best, Edwin From mm383 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 13 16:47:21 1998 From: mm383 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Mary McGee) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 12:47:21 -0400 Subject: Job Announcement Message-ID: <161227041783.23782.5176533846059973952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DARTMOUTH COLLEGE, Department of Religion, invites applications for a tenure-track appointment in INDIC RELIGIONS (including South Asian Buddhism) at the Assistant Professor level beginning Fall, 1999. Qualifications include recent or near completion of Ph.D. and demonstrated teaching abilities. Linguistic competence and training in approaches and methods in the Study of Religion are essential. Courses to be taught will include a team-taught Introduction to the Study of Religion, and Introduction to Hinduism and an Introduction to South Asian Buddhism. The application process requires an application letter, a c.v., and three letters of recommendation. Please send dossier with references to Chair, Search Committee, Department of Religion, Dartmouth College, 6036 Thornton Hall, Hanover, NH 03755-3572. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 13 17:30:52 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 13:30:52 -0400 Subject: S.Asia job posting: Dartmouth Message-ID: <161227041787.23782.3082361215674093957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC JOB POSTING section of SARAI. Please follow instructions in the posting and contact the posters directly for any further information. (Do not write to me or to SARAI for such requests.) David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai =============================================== DARTMOUTH COLLEGE, Department of Religion, invites applications for a tenure-track appointment in INDIC RELIGIONS (including South Asian Buddhism) at the Assistant Professor level beginning Fall, 1999. Qualifications include recent or near completion of Ph.D. and demonstrated teaching abilities. Linguistic competence and training in approaches and methods in the Study of Religion are essential. Courses to be taught will include a team-taught Introduction to the Study of Religion, and Introduction to Hinduism and an Introduction to South Asian Buddhism. The application process requires an application letter, a c.v., and three letters of recommendation. Please send dossier with references to Chair, Search Committee, Department of Religion, Dartmouth College, 6036 Thornton Hall, Hanover, NH 03755-3572. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Oct 13 14:17:33 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 14:17:33 +0000 Subject: Your thesis Message-ID: <161227041769.23782.15015648321604359948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Edwin! Has your thesis now been published? (Bibliographic data??) Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1291 bytes Desc: not available URL: From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Tue Oct 13 14:07:31 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 15:07:31 +0100 Subject: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041771.23782.2896991720469750104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > > The RSi vaza azvya, the beneficiary of pRthuzravas's generosity, contrasts > his own good fortune against that of the a'deva: the one who does not > worship the devas. Now, such an a'deva could be: (1) a Vedic Aryan hostile > to the devas; (2) an Iranian Aryan hostile to the devas; (3) a Dravidian or > some other non-Aryan hostile to the devas. > > If I were a betting man, I'd bet on (2), especially since kanIta is a > non-Vedic, a Scythian, name. I agree that the name kanIta may be Iranian, but can somebody explain me on what base it may be specified as being Scythian in such an early period as that of the RV ? Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent, Belgium From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Oct 13 17:24:51 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 17:24:51 +0000 Subject: SV: Your thesis Message-ID: <161227041776.23782.7627274013277979451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Has your thesis now been published? (Bibliographic data??) I plan to have it in the hands of Oxford U. Press for review by Jan come hell or high water. In that case, the best of luck to you! Would it be possible to get a copy of it for reference before it is published? (I don't want to do your work over again in my own endeavours.) In honesty, other research projects are beckoning and I feel I have personally exhausted this topic intellectually. You have my sympathy. It is a natural reaction to such an emotional subject. And everybody needs a change. Dominik had asked me to post a position paper on Indology which I will do at some point (if everyone has not become sick to death of the I-A problem) but teaching pressures have brought all superfluous projects to a screeching halt for now. One question: I am trying to get into contact with a person at Oxford who could help me get into a college (it seems to be the only way to get access to library resources in that town). Would you know anyone who could advice me? I tried to email James Benson, but he hasn't answered, and another attempt proved equally fruitless. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2223 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Oct 13 17:58:36 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 17:58:36 +0000 Subject: SV: Your thesis Message-ID: <161227041781.23782.1954060750503721693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Net members! I just realized that I posted a private mail to the net. My apologies! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1883 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Oct 13 16:45:49 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 18:45:49 +0200 Subject: Oguibenine's book Message-ID: <161227041785.23782.6208087659367188921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is my pleasure to inform you that the book of Prof. B. Oguibenine, of which the English version has been recently announced by Dominik, had also been published in Italian (Pisa: Giardini, 1985). Enrica -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Oct 13 19:49:44 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 19:49:44 +0000 Subject: SV: Oguibenine's book Message-ID: <161227041789.23782.6621433149156177665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli wrote: It is my pleasure to inform you that the book of Prof. B. Oguibenine, of which the English version has been recently announced by Dominik, had also been published in Italian (Pisa: Giardini, 1985). Judging from my own copy of the book, the Italian edition is in French, not in Italian. ("Essais sur la culture vedique et indo-europeenne"). Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1661 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Oct 14 07:27:45 1998 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Ghosh-Beverborg) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 21:27:45 -1000 Subject: [Fwd: [*] Tamil Haiku Poetry and Tamil Literature] Message-ID: <161227041791.23782.15605991578947423102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listmembers, I thought this information could be of interest to some of you. Mr. Tobias Ghosh-Beverborg ************************** surfah at kahala.net grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.skulptur.de/ http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/ http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/digrs/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 3933 URL: From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed Oct 14 09:02:39 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 11:02:39 +0200 Subject: SV: Oguibenine's book Message-ID: <161227041793.23782.377171317616621539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Lars for your precious info. The info on Oguibenine's book was supplied by Prof. Oguibenine's himself. I have not checked the book. Nevertheless, since from the time of Fascism we "Italianize" (to paraphrase Benjamin's words) into Italian everything, even comp words that have been invented in English (such as to scan=scannerizzare -- even though "scannare", which means to cut the throat of somebody, is also used!). It seems very improbable to me that the book has been published in Italy in French. But I cannot say anything before opening it. (However, we -- Italian Indologists -- all know French pretty well, therefore in practice French or Italian do not make much difference to us -- even though yours is a very precious bibliographic info). Enrica Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Enrica Garzilli wrote: > > It is my pleasure to inform you that the book of Prof. B. Oguibenine, of > which the English version has been recently announced by Dominik, had > also been published in Italian (Pisa: Giardini, 1985). > > Judging from my own copy of the book, the Italian edition is in French, not in Italian. ("Essais sur la culture vedique et indo-europeenne"). > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: base64 -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed Oct 14 09:13:15 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 11:13:15 +0200 Subject: Oguibenine's book Message-ID: <161227041794.23782.16587443290261708666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Oguibenine has just specified to me: "the Pisa book was in FRENCH (my lectures at the Dept. of Linguistics of the U. of Pisa in 1985)." Because we all know French...:) EG -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 14 18:15:13 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 11:15:13 -0700 Subject: IE books Message-ID: <161227041807.23782.11977720768162464019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. P. Mallory, Encyclopaedia of Indo-European culture, 1997 Michael York, The divine versus the asurian: an interpretation of Indo-European cult and myth, 1996 Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Oct 14 17:10:34 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 13:10:34 -0400 Subject: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041805.23782.12198671774954809064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the question of Erik Seldeslachts: > >I agree that the name kanIta may be Iranian, but can somebody explain me >on what base >it may be specified as being Scythian in such an early period as that of >the RV ? > The suggestion that the name kanIta [inferred from the patronymic kAnIta' at RV 8.46.21 & 24] was Scythian was first made by Karl Hoffmann [Aufsaetze, 1975], on the basis of comparison with the Scythian name kan'itEs, ka'nitos [attested in Herodotos?]. It has been cited several times by Witzel, perhaps even on this list, in the extended discussion of "methods of dating the RV" [I haven't been able to check]. See also Mayrhofer KEWA under kAnIta'H. I agree with Mayrhofer that the suggestion is "unsicher" [the assertion cited by ES is no doubt too strong], but given the supporting evidence I think that the suggestion has a good chance of being valid. As for the question whether Scythians were contemporary with the RV Aryans, see for example the chapter on the "Scyths" by T. Sulimirski in *The Cambridge History of Iran*, vol 2 [1985]. There is no reason known to me to think that they wouldn't have been contemporaries, likely to have had some contact with each other. Best wishes, GT From ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 14 20:16:55 1998 From: ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK (Jibunnessa) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 13:16:55 -0700 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." Message-ID: <161227041796.23782.2267461845124536378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends Hope somebody can help! I'd like to read a paper by Wendy Doniger, "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." in Incognita (Leiden) 1:1-15, 1990. I've done a library search for the journal 'Incognita' at a few institutions, but without luck. So, if anybody does know where I might be able to get my hands on the paper, I'd really appreciate it. All the best Jibunnessa -- Jibunnessa Abdullah Fax: (+44) 181 731-9770 ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" From n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE Wed Oct 14 14:13:46 1998 From: n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE (Narahari Rao) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 15:13:46 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227041798.23782.15004164437732807287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Will anyone please send me the current adrresses of the following persons? W. Halbfass Lindtner Van Bijlert Tillmann Vetter Lenn Goodman (Islamist) To avoid the incovenience to others please send the addresses not to the Indology list but to my personal email address below: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Oct 14 13:46:58 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 15:46:58 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981014141346.00940cec@mail.rz.uni-sb.de> Message-ID: <161227041800.23782.15656828874631436643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Will anyone please send me the current adrresses of the following persons? >W. Halbfass >Lindtner >Van Bijlert >Tillmann Vetter > >Lenn Goodman (Islamist) > > >To avoid the incovenience to others please send the addresses not to the >Indology list but to my personal email address below: >n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de The address of Lindtner is: Christian Lindtner, Dr. phil. Tovesvej 6 2650 Naerum, DENMARK NB: Don't we agree that in cases like this, the answer should go to the Indology list to avoid double responses? The inconvenience for the rest of us is tolerable, is it not? Georg v. Simson From hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM Thu Oct 15 00:11:35 1998 From: hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM (Harold F. Arnold) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 17:11:35 -0700 Subject: Release: El.Journal of Vedic Studies 4.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041813.23782.10602123546225600456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Witzel, Today I was, for the first time ever, able to access most of the issues of the IJVS from the web site. I had missed several issues as I had switched ISPs without notifying you. The address given below, however, causes Netscape to behave in a most bizarre fashion. I believe the correct address is: www1.shore.net /~india/ejvs isn't it? Perhaps you should let the folks on the Indology list know. Yrs. Harold Arnold >We are pleased to announce the recent publication of another issue of the >Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. The journal is now in its 4th year >and has well over 600 subscribers. > >Vol. 4, issue 1 (August 1998) contains the paper of Makoto Fushimi >(Harvard U.), our new assistant editor. > > " Brahmana Passages in Apastamba-Srautasutra " > > see: www.shore.net /~india/ejvs > >This the first issue that is made available on the net at once in various >formats (PDF, DVI, PS). A few early issues have been available in PDF >format and are readable by acroreader (downloadable from our web site). > >At present, all issues since 1995 are on our web site the way >they have been published, that is in simple (7 bit) ASCII format using the >Kyoto-Harvard transcription. They can be read and downloaded in this >format. > >Other formats of these earlier issues are to be added soon, as to >facilitate reading and printing with the usual Indological transcription. > >M. Witzel , ed. > > > >=========================================================================== >Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu > www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Oct 14 22:17:46 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 17:17:46 -0500 Subject: A site of interest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041809.23782.1063579549588508091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is a site that speaks for itself about the political reasons behind the language theories that were created in the 19th and early 20th century and still being peddled today - The speech by Harald Hj?rne, Chairman of the Nobel Committee of the Swedish Academy http://www.nobel.se/laureates/literature-1913-press.html Regards, Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Oct 14 18:35:00 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 18:35:00 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Oguibenine's book Message-ID: <161227041803.23782.16062181545196500035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Lars for your precious info. The info on Oguibenine's book was supplied by Prof. Oguibenine's himself. I have not checked the book. Nevertheless, since from the time of Fascism we "Italianize" (to paraphrase Benjamin's words) into Italian everything, even comp words that have been invented in English (such as to scan=scannerizzare -- even though "scannare", which means to cut the throat of somebody, is also used!). It seems very improbable to me that the book has been published in Italy in French. But I cannot say anything before opening it. (However, we -- Italian Indologists -- all know French pretty well, therefore in practice French or Italian do not make much difference to us -- even though yours is a very precious bibliographic info). Dear Enrica, I never, never, NEVER for a moment doubted the prodigious linguistic talents of Italian scholars and would indeed be very suprised if you were unable to converse in impeccable French without really noticing that you were doing so - an ability unfortunately not shared by Norwegians, who are the products of a rougher, less sophisticated cultural climate (if I were able to converse in impeccable French, I would notice it all the time). The reason why I added this seemingly unimportant detail about Oguibenine's book is, however, a weighty one. Remember that there are unhappy creatures out there in the world who are unable to read Italian. These poor, lost souls that do not master Europe's most melodious and elegant language might simply despair of ever being able to read Oguibenine's book. Some of these unfortunates, however, are able to hobble along intellectually in French, which is why I decided to releave them of their pain and disappointment and tell them the good news. It was not my intention to offend Italy or the Italians. I would never offend a country with such a delicious cuisine. Please forgive. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2653 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ramakris at EROLS.COM Wed Oct 14 23:05:49 1998 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 19:05:49 -0400 Subject: Question about KiraNa Agama Message-ID: <161227041811.23782.12876179313640584715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone point me to studies on the KiraNa Agama? I referred to Jan Gonda's excellent book "Medieval Religious Literature in Sanskrit" and the only reference he has given is in french. If anyone is aware of any studies on this Agama, please let me know. I shall request Lars Martin Fosse to provide instant moksha to anyone who helps :-). Thanks. Rama From bagchee at MAILEXCITE.COM Thu Oct 15 02:12:58 1998 From: bagchee at MAILEXCITE.COM (Malay K Bagchi) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 19:12:58 -0700 Subject: Nobel Prize for Professor Amartya Sen Message-ID: <161227041815.23782.7443229263619564201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello: We are very proud to know that Professor Amartya Sen awarded from Nobel foundation for his outstanding contribution in Economics. We think this prize was long due for Professor Sen. Our congratulations to Professor Sen. Malay k. Bagchi --- ====================================================================== Bagchee Associates Kalyan Nagar Tel:+91-33-5532225 Pansila, West Bengal 743 180 Fax:+91-33-2482973 India ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Email: service at bagchee.com Web: http://www.bagchee.com ====================================================================== Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Oct 14 17:57:11 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 21:57:11 +0400 Subject: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041842.23782.4772908255231778843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, unfortunately I had no opportunity to see what it is said about Scythians in the Cambridge History of Iran, but here, in the homeland of Scyths, so to say, archaeologists and historians use the term to denote the bearers of the very distinctive culture characterized first of all by the so-called "Scythian triad" which consists of: 1. the famous "Animal style" in art, 2. specific set of metal (bronze and then iron) weapons, and 3, specific set of metal horse harness. Though evidently related to the previous steppe cultures (such as Cimmerians and others), the Scythian culture suddenly emerges all over the enormous territory from the Ukraine to Mongolia in the 8th cent. BC. The Eastern Scyths, called Sakas (ZAkas) for the first time reached the northern borders of India around 6th-5th cent. BC. So the Scythians proper could not in any way be the contemporaries of the Vedic (RV VIII.46.21,24) KanIta, father of PRthuzravas. It would be safer to define his name as not "possibly Scythian", but "possibly of Ancient Eastern Iranian origin". The Scythian language belonged to the northern group of the Eastern dialects of the Ancient Iranian. If the Vedic name KanIta is really of Iranian origin, it came surely not from the distant (and not existant at the time) Scythia, but most probably from the nearby Central Asia, East Iran or Afghanistan, where the southern Eastern Iranian dialects had been spoken at least since 2nd mill. BC. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov, St Petersburg, Russia From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 15 10:27:45 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 03:27:45 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227041824.23782.17486585139388935398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, while translating Nyaabhashya I came across this phrase: annam vai praa.nina.h praa.naa.h.(NBh I.1.2 p.76.16 in Nyaadarzanam, with Vaatsyaayana's Bhaashya, Uddyotakara's Vaarttika, Vaacaspati Mizra's Taatparya.tiikaa & Vizvanaatha's V.rtti, New Delhi, Munshiram Manoharlal, 1985). It seems certainly to be a quotation, but I was not able to identify source from which it was taken. Could anybody of you help me in this connection? I'll be very grateful for any relevant infromation. Dmitry Olenev. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 15 12:01:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 05:01:24 -0700 Subject: Question about KiraNa Agama Message-ID: <161227041830.23782.7205017404994299143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Dominic Goodall at Oxford is working on a critical edition of kiraNAgamam N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Oct 15 05:07:32 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 07:07:32 +0200 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." In-Reply-To: <362506B7.341E@ucl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227041816.23782.4092963597109964708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Friends > >Hope somebody can help! > >I'd like to read a paper by Wendy Doniger, "The Tale of >the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." in Incognita (Leiden) >1:1-15, 1990. > >I've done a library search for the journal 'Incognita' at >a few institutions, but without luck. So, if anybody does >know where I might be able to get my hands on the paper, >I'd really appreciate it. Well, I think no such journal exists, because "incognita" is just the Latin word for "ajnAtA". Probably, you must contact somebody at Leiden. Hoping to help Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Oct 15 09:41:42 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 09:41:42 +0000 Subject: SV: Question about KiraNa Agama Message-ID: <161227041821.23782.12011159527107610489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone point me to studies on the KiraNa Agama? I referred to Jan Gonda's excellent book "Medieval Religious Literature in Sanskrit" and the only reference he has given is in french. If anyone is aware of any studies on this Agama, please let me know. I shall request Lars Martin Fosse to provide instant moksha to anyone who helps :-). Thanks. Hello Rama, I am a bit short on moksha right now, I actually need some myself (moksha from an excessive workload), but I'll keep it mind, and as soon as I have fresh moksha to offer, I'll dole it out freely! Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1787 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mcv at WXS.NL Thu Oct 15 10:47:39 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 10:47:39 +0000 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041826.23782.16313272955551236881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Dominique.Thillaud" wrote: >>Dear Friends >> >>Hope somebody can help! >> >>I'd like to read a paper by Wendy Doniger, "The Tale of >>the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." in Incognita (Leiden) >>1:1-15, 1990. >> >>I've done a library search for the journal 'Incognita' at >>a few institutions, but without luck. So, if anybody does >>know where I might be able to get my hands on the paper, >>I'd really appreciate it. > >Well, I think no such journal exists, because "incognita" is just the Latin >word for "ajnAtA". Probably, you must contact somebody at Leiden. I'm in Amsterdam, where the publication is also "incognita". But the on-line catalog of the Leiden U. Libr. yields: Incognita : international journal for cognitive studies in the humanities. - Vol. 1, nr. 1 (1990) - vol. 2, nr. 2 (1991). - Leiden : Brill, 1990-1991. - 25 cm Verschijnt 2 per jaar. - Niet verder verschenen. ISSN 0923-7135 = Incognita (Amsterdam) I'm sorry, I only have access to the Amsterdam (UvA) U. Libr., so I can't help the original poster in a more practical way. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From gkb at ICARUS.UOM.AC.MU Thu Oct 15 06:53:53 1998 From: gkb at ICARUS.UOM.AC.MU (Girish Kumar Beeharry) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 10:53:53 +0400 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041818.23782.3180957124895747255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique THILLAUD wrote >Well, I think no such journal exists, because "incognita" is just the Latin >word for "ajnAtA". I do not agree with that. 'jna' has the connotation of birth, flow and being perennial. This is missing in 'incognita'. May be some word formed using the root for the french word 'connaissance' would be more appropriate. I don't know what the vyAkaraNa paNDitas think. I have a question for the tantra specialist. In many texts, eg the Kathopanishad one reads about the 'heat' from the Sun, Fire and Moon. Whilst I can understand that the Moon can be cooling something, I cannot understand the difference between the 'heat' from the Sun and that from the Fire. Would someone please help? Many thanks beforehand. Best wishes, Girish Kumar Beeharry. From garzilli at SHORE.NET Thu Oct 15 10:56:29 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 12:56:29 +0200 Subject: Question about KiraNa Agama Message-ID: <161227041828.23782.9694103359606498537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See the text and Italian transl. of the vidyapada section of the agama by M. P. Vivanti, *Il Kiranagama, testo e traduzione del vidyapada*, Napoli, Istituto Universitario Orientale, 1975 (Supplemento agli Annali no. 3). (Lars, do I deserve your forgiveness with this info? Please...:)) Enrica Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: > > Can anyone point me to studies on the KiraNa Agama? I referred to Jan > Gonda's excellent book "Medieval Religious Literature in Sanskrit" and > the only reference he has given is in french. If anyone is aware of any > studies on this Agama, please let me know. I shall request Lars Martin > Fosse to provide instant moksha to anyone who helps :-). Thanks. > > Rama -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Thu Oct 15 13:21:29 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 14:21:29 +0100 Subject: Question about KiraNa Agama In-Reply-To: <19981015120124.11618.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041834.23782.12887657712450233506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dr. Dominic Goodall at Oxford is working on > a critical edition of kiraNAgamam > N. Ganesan I am indeed editing the text and I have just released the first volume of a critical edition with annotated English translation of Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's commentary on the Kira.na. Details will follow. Dominic Goodall. From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 15 18:35:42 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 14:35:42 -0400 Subject: gopAla-tApanI UpaniSad (fwd) Message-ID: <161227041846.23782.11349070440536983070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 14:09:14 PDT From: Jan Brzezinski Subject: gopAla-tApanI UpaniSad Dear friends, Does anybody have any knowledge of the tApanIyopaniSads (also tApanI upaniSads)? I have a number of commentaries to the GopAlatApanI, but other than the statement found therein that it was well known in Gujarat, I can find no information about this or the other works coming (apparently) from the same school (rAmatApanI, nRsiMghatApanI). They are obviously very late VaiSNava UpaniSads. Can anybody add to this meagre store of knowledge? Thanking you all in advance for your help, Jan Brzezinski From garzilli at SHORE.NET Thu Oct 15 13:12:23 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 15:12:23 +0200 Subject: Release: El.Journal of Vedic Studies 4.1 Message-ID: <161227041832.23782.2938857303039543971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. M. Witzel is participating to the Wisconsin-Madison conference. You are right, the new site is http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ Dr. Enrica Garzilli Managing Editor, EJVS *************************************************************************** "Harold F. Arnold" wrote: > > Dear Witzel, > Today I was, for the first time ever, able to access most of the > issues of the IJVS from the web site. I had missed several issues as I had > switched ISPs without notifying you. The address given below, however, > causes Netscape to behave in a most bizarre fashion. I believe the correct > address is: > > www1.shore.net /~india/ejvs > > isn't it? Perhaps you should let the folks on the Indology list know. > Yrs. > Harold Arnold > > >We are pleased to announce the recent publication of another issue of the > >Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. The journal is now in its 4th year > >and has well over 600 subscribers. > > > >Vol. 4, issue 1 (August 1998) contains the paper of Makoto Fushimi > >(Harvard U.), our new assistant editor. > > > > " Brahmana Passages in Apastamba-Srautasutra " > > > > see: www.shore.net /~india/ejvs > > > >This the first issue that is made available on the net at once in various > >formats (PDF, DVI, PS). A few early issues have been available in PDF > >format and are readable by acroreader (downloadable from our web site). > > > >At present, all issues since 1995 are on our web site the way > >they have been published, that is in simple (7 bit) ASCII format using the > >Kyoto-Harvard transcription. They can be read and downloaded in this > >format. > > > >Other formats of these earlier issues are to be added soon, as to > >facilitate reading and printing with the usual Indological transcription. > > > >M. Witzel , ed. > > > > > > > >=========================================================================== > >Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Oct 15 16:03:15 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 16:03:15 +0000 Subject: SV: Question about KiraNa Agama Message-ID: <161227041836.23782.17038135854360256370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli wrote: See the text and Italian transl. of the vidyapada section of the agama by M. P. Vivanti, *Il Kiranagama, testo e traduzione del vidyapada*, Napoli, Istituto Universitario Orientale, 1975 (Supplemento agli Annali no. 3). (Lars, do I deserve your forgiveness with this info? Please...:)) You certainly do. But then, we Scandinavians are liable to forgive the Italians practically anything, because they are such wonderful people. (I am not being ironic. Italy is one of my favourite places. :-))) Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1783 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Thu Oct 15 16:38:08 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 17:38:08 +0100 Subject: Kira.naagama/Kira.natantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041838.23782.4122536776909351855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NEWLY RELEASED from French Institute of Pondicherry/Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr^eme-Orient, Pondicherry:--- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's Commentary on the Kira.natantra, volume I: chapters 1--6, critical edition and annotated translation, Dominic Goodall. (Publications du d?partement d'indologie 86.1). 1998. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Introduction, 2 plates (of folios of Grantha manuscripts), Sanskrit text, English translation, indices. pp. cxxv, 487. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% This book contains a critical edition and annotated translation of the first 6 (of 12) chapters of the Kashmirian Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha II's influential, hitherto unpublished 10th-century Sanskrit commentary on the Kira.natantra, a scripture of the (old, pan-Indian) Saiva Siddhaanta. The Kira.natantra consists of 64 chapters and touches on every aspect of the cult: its theology, its yoga, its observances, and its rituals and all that relates to them, including architecture and iconography. Raamaka.n.tha's commentary, however, covers only the first portion of the text, which deals with the cult's doctrines. After a eulogy of Siva, Ch.1 explains the nature of the soul and the sequence in which a soul is linked to the evolutes of primal matter to make it capable of worldly experience; Ch.2 distinguishes the functions of impurity and primal matter; Ch.3 proves the existence of a creator god; Ch.4 explains the role of Siva's chief deputy, Ananta, in stimulating primal matter to generate the gross universe; Ch.5 explains what must precede a soul's receiving salvific grace; Ch.6 explains how initiation and post-initiatory observances vary according to the abilities of the initiands. The editor's introduction presents newly uncovered evidence about the lineage of Raamaka.n.tha, attempts a chronological arrangement of his extant works, provides the text of a surviving fragment of his Sarvaagamapraamaa.nyopanyaasa, and discusses the canon of extant tantras of the "Saiva Siddhaanta that we can assume to have existed in the 10th century and so to have been accessible to Raamaka.ntha. The critical apparatus presents the readings of the 4 surviving South Indian palm-leaf manuscripts of the commentary and, in a separate register, the readings of 21 manuscripts of the tantra from Nepal and South India. From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Thu Oct 15 16:40:22 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 17:40:22 +0100 Subject: Kira.naagama/Kira.natantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041840.23782.16606672974954502787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I omitted to mention in my last posting that the first 7 chapters of the Kira.natantra have been translated into English. This translation appears on pp.341--70 of ``Hindu Scriptures'' (California University Press and J.M.Dent 1996) and it is introduced on pp.xxxi--xxxviii of the introduction. A summary (in French) of the whole text is given by Mme. Brunner in her article `Analyse du Kira.naagama' pp.309--29 of Journal Asiatique CCLIII (1965). Dominic Goodall. From ramakris at EROLS.COM Thu Oct 15 23:00:29 1998 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 19:00:29 -0400 Subject: gopAla-tApanI UpaniSad (fwd) Message-ID: <161227041847.23782.13851947003183864950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant wrote: > Does anybody have any knowledge of the tApanIyopaniSads (also tApanI >upaniSads)? I have a number of commentaries to the GopAlatApanI, but >other than the statement found therein that it was well known in >Gujarat, I can find no information about this or the other works coming >(apparently) from the same school (rAmatApanI, nRsiMghatApanI). They >are obviously very late VaiSNava UpaniSads. Can anybody add to this >meagre store of knowledge? Deussen's Sixty Upanisads of the Veda, Vol II pp. 809-888. He has translated the Rama-pUrva and uttatara tApinI and the nRisi.nha pUrva and uttara tApini upanisads. See also the The Vaisnava Upanisads, edited by Pandit A. Mahadeva Sastri for the commentary of Upanisad Brahma yogin (18th to 19th century author). Deussen gives _some_ historical info. A lower date can be fixed for these upanisads based on their earliest commentaries, which he talks abbout in his introduction. The nRsi.nha pUrva and uttara tApini upanisads have a commentary attributed to Gaudapada and Sankara, but these seem to be spurious ascriptions. In the Anubhutiprakasa, Vidyaranya (14th century author) has written a chapter on the nRsi.nha uttara tApinI upanisad. See the Critical edition of the Anubhutiprakasa, by Godabarisa Mishra, University of Madras. Suresvara also seems to be quoting from this upanisad in his bRhadAranyaka vArtika. But I have forgotten the verse number in the vArtika, now. Among these nRisi.nha tApinI upanisads don't seem to be very late. Must be at least older than the 14th century. Rama From ramakris at EROLS.COM Thu Oct 15 23:17:02 1998 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 19:17:02 -0400 Subject: Kira.naagama/Kira.natantra Message-ID: <161227041849.23782.524397558111475237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominic Goodall wrote: > I omitted to mention in my last posting that the first 7 chapters of > the Kira.natantra have been translated into English. This translation > appears on pp.341--70 of ``Hindu Scriptures'' (California University > Press and J.M.Dent 1996) and it is introduced on pp.xxxi--xxxviii of > the introduction. Thanks to everyone who replied. Is the above book edited by you? I went to amazon.com and found a soft cover edition titled "Hindu Scriptures", Univ of Calif Press, priced 13.56. A hard cover edition costs ~$45 and is titled "Hindu Scriptures - New translations". To make things more confusing, all other info including the photograph of the book are the same for both the hard and soft cover editions!! Are these two books are the same? Thanks in advance for the clarification. Rama From khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Thu Oct 15 18:12:22 1998 From: khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Katja Hofmann) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 20:12:22 +0200 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." Message-ID: <161227041844.23782.2713584320430310846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > "Dominique.Thillaud" wrote: > > >>Dear Friends > >> > >>Hope somebody can help! > >> > >>I'd like to read a paper by Wendy Doniger, "The Tale of > >>the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." in Incognita (Leiden) > >>1:1-15, 1990. > >> > >>I've done a library search for the journal 'Incognita' at > >>a few institutions, but without luck. So, if anybody does > >>know where I might be able to get my hands on the paper, > >>I'd really appreciate it. > > > >Well, I think no such journal exists, because "incognita" is just the Latin > >word for "ajnAtA". Probably, you must contact somebody at Leiden. > > I'm in Amsterdam, where the publication is also "incognita". > > But the on-line catalog of the Leiden U. Libr. yields: > > Incognita : international journal for cognitive studies in the > humanities. - > Vol. 1, nr. 1 (1990) - vol. 2, nr. 2 (1991). - Leiden : Brill, > 1990-1991. - 25 cm > Verschijnt 2 per jaar. - Niet verder verschenen. > ISSN 0923-7135 = Incognita (Amsterdam) > > I'm sorry, I only have access to the Amsterdam (UvA) U. Libr., so I > can't help the original poster in a more practical way. > > ======================= > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal > mcv at wxs.nl > Amsterdam I am at Berlin here the journal is not "incognita"! The Staatsbibliothek Berlin holds "Incognita": [ Database: Zeitschriftendatenbank | Search Query: ft: Incognita | Limits: None | Results: 2 items ] ND: 1060537 JT: Incognita ST: international journal for cognitive studies in the humanities PP: Leiden PU: Brill PB: 1990 PE: 1991 PD: 1.1990 - 2.1991; damit Ersch. eingest. SS: 0923-7135 CY: nl CC: 200 BER 1a 1.1990 - 2.1991 : Zsn 77830 and three other german libraries too: NIE 7 1.1990 - 2.1991 : ZA 74917 / FMAG NRW 61 1.1990 - 2.1991 : LS / phi z i 385 NRW Jason 1990-1991 Saluti, Katja Hofmann From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 16 01:22:45 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 98 06:22:45 +0500 Subject: gopAla-tApini UpaniSad Message-ID: <161227041851.23782.17101504801601780793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think that nRsiMha-tApini UpaniSad is devided into two parts, pUrvanRsiMha-tApini upaniSad and uttaranRsimha-yApini upaniSad and the former is advaitic describing the nature of praNava (OM). regards, sarma. <<---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 14:09:14 PDT From: Jan Brzezinski Subject: gopAla-tApanI UpaniSad Dear friends, Does anybody have any knowledge of the tApanIyopaniSads (also tApanI upaniSads)? I have a number of commentaries to the GopAlatApanI, but other than the statement found therein that it was well known in Gujarat, I can find no information about this or the other works coming (apparently) from the same school (rAmatApanI, nRsiMghatApanI). They are obviously very late VaiSNava UpaniSads. Can anybody add to this meagre store of knowledge? Thanking you all in advance for your help, Jan Brzezinski>> From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 16 03:19:43 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 98 08:19:43 +0500 Subject: gopAla-tApini UpaniSad In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981016062245.00820840@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227041852.23782.6364138483380339362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A correction to my posting given below. It is the uttaranRsimha-tApini upaniSad that describes the nature of"OM". The error is regretted. besides that the other two rAmatApini upaniSad and gopAla-tapini upaniSad also have pUrva- and uttara- parts. regards, sarma. At 06:22 AM 10/16/98 +0500, I wrote: >I think that nRsiMha-tApini UpaniSad is devided into two parts, >pUrvanRsiMha-tApini upaniSad and uttaranRsimha-yApini upaniSad >and the former is advaitic describing the nature of praNava (OM). > >regards, > >sarma. > > ><<---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 14:09:14 PDT >From: Jan Brzezinski >Subject: gopAla-tApanI UpaniSad > > >Dear friends, > >Does anybody have any knowledge of the tApanIyopaniSads (also tApanI >upaniSads)? I have a number of commentaries to the GopAlatApanI, but other >than the statement found therein that it was well known in Gujarat, I can >find no information about this or the other works coming (apparently) from >the same school (rAmatApanI, nRsiMghatApanI). They are obviously very late >VaiSNava UpaniSads. Can anybody add to this meagre store of knowledge? > >Thanking you all in advance for your help, > >Jan Brzezinski>> > > From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Oct 16 09:56:38 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 98 10:56:38 +0100 Subject: Address needed Message-ID: <161227041854.23782.11214481816819104454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I urgently need an address for Ursula Rothen-Dubs, can anyone help me? Many thanks, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Oct 16 11:17:01 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 98 13:17:01 +0200 Subject: XI World Skt Conf.: Announc. & Form Message-ID: <161227041856.23782.1416975019945106322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, You can find the 1st announcement of the XI World Sanskrit Conference to be held at CESMEO, Turin (Italy), April from the 3rd to 8th, 2000: http://www.asiatica.org/sktconf.asp The page is linked to the Milan international airport. You can find the participation form in: http://www.asiatica.org/sktform.asp -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Fri Oct 16 15:58:04 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 98 16:58:04 +0100 Subject: Kira.naagama/Kira.natantra In-Reply-To: <3626826E.6851@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227041857.23782.15894131824965425919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologise for again having omitted details from my postings. I should have mentioned that the Kira.nav.rtti volume is priced at Rs.900, and that the 1996 edition of ``Hindu Scriptures'' is edited by me. Only the 1996 edition contains a translation of Kira.na 1--7, and it is available both in hard-back and in paper-back. Dominic Goodall. On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: > Is the above book edited by you? I went to amazon.com and found a soft > cover edition titled "Hindu Scriptures", Univ of Calif Press, priced > 13.56. A hard cover edition costs ~$45 and is titled "Hindu Scriptures - > New translations". To make things more confusing, all other info > including the photograph of the book are the same for both the hard and > soft cover editions!! Are these two books are the same? From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Sat Oct 17 08:50:58 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 98 12:50:58 +0400 Subject: Mahabharat English tranlation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041859.23782.10435765173651695268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Would there be any good English translations of the Mahabharat on the internet ? Or any good in-depth account with details ? Thanks in advance for your help. Samar From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Oct 17 20:23:29 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 98 16:23:29 -0400 Subject: Job posting Message-ID: <161227041863.23782.4203912586461641101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following Job Announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the JOBS section of SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet). Please contact job posters directly with any comments of questions, and do not send such queries to me. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ======================================================== From: "qadri ismail" The Dept. of History and the Institute for Global Studies invite applications for a full time, tenure track, joint appointment beginning next september. Tenure home will be in history. We are looking for someone whose work is on 19th/20th century South Asia and whose record suggests theoretical sophistication and interdisciplinary involvement. For further details, contact the Dept. of History, University of Minnesota, 614 Social Sciences Building, Minneapolis, MN 55455 or send an application (including brief narrative on current research and teaching, plans for future research, proposed courses) and CV to the Chair, History/IGS Search Committee, at the above address. All applications must be postmarked December 1st or earlier. From cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK Sat Oct 17 17:52:39 1998 From: cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 98 18:52:39 +0100 Subject: Diacritics for Romanised Indic text in HTML 4.0 Message-ID: <161227041861.23782.2960786165164615166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subscribers to INDOLOGY who use diacritics for Romanised Indic text on their web sites (or with Word '97) may be interested looking at a page I've written on using these characters in HTML 4.0 with the ISO/IEC 10646 character set: Regards - Chris P.S. although I've been very careful on that page to use only plain HTML 4.0, with no non-standard tags, and verified it - Netscape 4 occasionally seems to have problems with this page. IE 4 works fine. If you have a browser which doesn't understand HTML 4.0 tags you should still be able to load the page, though you won't see the Unicode characters used in the tables properly. -- From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sun Oct 18 16:25:55 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 98 18:25:55 +0200 Subject: Is vatsayana outdated? - Interview with Sudhir Kakar Message-ID: <161227041864.23782.16399432701244452799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/981018/09/0918129l.htm For some excerpts from his latest book see: http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/981018/09/0918017g.htm Regards, Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From thompson at JLC.NET Mon Oct 19 01:17:17 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 98 21:17:17 -0400 Subject: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041866.23782.5420618480853644249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the recent remarks of Yaroslav Vassilkov: I think that a couple of assumptions are being made here which need to be examined. First, to say that a culture "suddenly emerges" at a given date means only that it is attested only at that date, NOT that it did not exist before that date. Just as we cannot say that Sanskrit is older than Latin or German, even though we can say that there are Sanskrit texts which are older than any surviving texts in Latin or German, so we cannot say that Vedic is older than the language of the ZAkas. To say that the Scyths "emerged" in the 8th cent BCE means only that somebody started to notice them at that point. I see no reason to assume that the Scythian language, like proto-Latin and proto-German, did not exist during the Vedic period. Of course it did, even if we have no direct record of it. The same applies to the culture. Perhaps I should have said that certain "proto-Scythians" were contemporaries of our RV poets. Okay. But my point, I think, stands. Second, what is "the Vedic period", and where was it located [the focus of this extended thread, after all]? As far as I can tell, there is no significant gap between attested Scythian at the 8th cent BCE and the language of RV. What? Perhaps a couple of centuries? How old exactly is RV 8.46? And where was it composed? In my view, early Vedic, and in particular RV book 8, is better understood as the product of an Indo-Iranian culture, rather than as a strictly Indic one. I have made this assertion repeatedly on this list. The name 'kanIta' seems to have stronger ties with Iranian than with Indic. It is a hapax legomenon in the RV, and utterly disappears thereafter [except for a quotation in a zrauta sUtra]. On the other hand, we have the name of a Scythian prince, Kanites. Why should we doubt an historical [or prehistorical] connection between the Vedic and the Scythian names? Would we doubt a historical connection between a Vedic name and a comparable Pali name, in spite of a gap of at least as many centuries separating texts in these languages as those that separate attested Scythian and the assumed date of the RV? I think we should give as much, if not more, credence to Vedic-Iranian [including Scythian] parallels as we would to Vedic-Pali ones. In fact, in my view we have better reasons for accepting the former than the latter. Given the presence of camels, mathra horses, dogs, etc, in RV 8.46, I think it is reasonable to suppose that the Vedic prince pRthuzravas, son of a certain kanIta, was a descendent of a proto-Scythian, on the basis of the comparison of Vedic kAnIta' with a Greek form of a Scythian name, kanites. Tenuous though the connection would seem to be, there is no better one available to us, is there [pace Thieme's entirely Vedic-internal interpretation of kAnIta' in his Kleine Schriften, p. 509f.; impressive, as usual, but not entirely convincing]? When I close my eyes and imagine what this ancestor of pRthuzravas actually might have looked like, given the scanty description in RV 8.46, I see a cultural figure that is closer in form [dress, customs, cultural outlook, etc.] to Scythian than to, say, Gangetic. Perhaps my imagination is wrong. But what I know of Scythian culture is frequently reminiscent of what I know of Vedic. This would be worth talking about some more. Finally, I just don't think that the RV is very old or very Indic. If there are good arguments against this assumption, of course I will yield to them. But not until then. Best wishes, GT From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 19 12:32:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 05:32:34 -0700 Subject: Prof. Amartya Sen Message-ID: <161227041875.23782.4419525237387441089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A. Sen, the latest Nobel Laureate and a citizen of India has lots of work on Indology. For example, 1) On interpreting India's past [in] Nationalism, Democracy and Development, 1997 2) Internal criticism and Indian rationalist traditions [in] Relativism: Interpretation and Confrontation, 1989. Happy Diipaavali and Best regards, N. Ganesan >?From A. Sen, Indian traditions and the Western imagination, Daedalus, Spring 1997: "Another interesting example concerns Mill's reaction to Indian astronomy and specifically the argument for a rotating earth and a model of gravitational attraction (proposed by Aryabhatta, who was born in A.D. 476, and investigated by, among others, Varahamihira and Brahmagupta in the sixth and sevent centuries). These works were well known in the Arab world; as was mentioned earlier, Brahmagupta's book was translated into Arabic in the eight century and retranslated in the eleventh. William Jones had been told about these works in India, and he in turn reported that statement. Mill expresses total astonishment at Jones' gullibility. After ridiculing the absurdity of this attribution and commenting on the "pretensions and interests" of Jones' Indian informants, Mills concludes that it was "extremely natural that Sir William Jones, whose pundits had become acquqinted with the ideas of European philophers respecting the system of the universe, should hear from them that those ideas were contained in their own books." For purposes of comparison it is useful to examine Alberuni's discussion of the same issue nearly eight hundered years earlier, concerning the postulation of a rotating earth and gravitational attraction in the still-earlier writings of Aryabhata and Brahmagupta: Brahmagupta says in another place of the same book: "The followers of Aryabhata maintain that the earth is moving and heaven resting.People have tried to refute them by saying that, if such were the case, stones and trees would falfrom the earth." But Brahmagupta does not agree with them, and says that that would not necessarily follow from their theory, apparently because he thought that all heavy things are attracted towards the center of the earth. Alberuni himself proceeded to dispute the model, raised a technical question about one of Brahmagupta's mathematical calculations, referred to a different book of his own arguing against the proposed view, and pointed out that the relative character of movements makes this issue less central than one might first think: "The rotation of earth does in no way impair the value of astronomy, as all appearances of an astronomic character can quite as well be explained according to this theory as to the other". Here, as elsewhere, while arguing against an opponent's views, Alberuni tries to present such views with great involvement and care. The contrast between Alberuni's curatorial approach and James Mill's magisterial pronouncements could not be sharper. There are plenty of other examples of "magesterial" readings of India in Mill's history. This is of some practical importance, since the book was extremely influential in the British administration and widely praised. It was described by Macaulay as "on the whole the greatest historical work which has appeared in our language since that of Gibbon". Macaulay's own approach and inclinations echoed James Mill's: I have no knowledge of either Sanskrit or Arabic ... I am quite ready to take the Oriental learning at the value of the Orientalists themselves. I have never found one among them who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Oct 19 11:40:29 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 07:40:29 -0400 Subject: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041873.23782.5504452383321106549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, George Thompson wrote: > In response to the recent remarks of Yaroslav Vassilkov: > > I think that a couple of assumptions are being made here which need to be > examined. > > Vedic is older than the language of the ZAkas. To say that the Scyths > "emerged" in the 8th cent BCE means only that somebody started to notice > them at that point. I see no reason to assume that the Scythian language, > like proto-Latin and proto-German, did not exist during the Vedic period. > Of course it did, even if we have no direct record of it. While I don't claim to be a scholar on the topic, intuitive statement like above bother me. Many of the nationalistic research gets guided through such unfounded empiricism and they get further. I would urge that we avoid speculations that we cannot prove. Somehow the rest of the reasoning sounds shallow to me from the same point of view. We must by all means differentiate between opinions and research. Methods of research are as important as findings that may be arrived at, sometimes more.. - BM > When I close my eyes and imagine what this ancestor of pRthuzravas actually > might have looked like, given the scanty description in RV 8.46, I see a > cultural figure that is closer in form [dress, customs, cultural outlook, > etc.] to Scythian than to, say, Gangetic. Perhaps my imagination is wrong. > But what I know of Scythian culture is frequently reminiscent of what I > know of Vedic. This would be worth talking about some more. > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Oct 19 08:58:15 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 08:58:15 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041869.23782.7422022792828545750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thomson wrote: Finally, I just don't think that the RV is very old or very Indic. If there are good arguments against this assumption, of course I will yield to them. George, I think this is a potentially rewarding thread. My own feelings about the RV have always been that it is innovative rather than conservative: 1) It presents what I would call the first Indian sectarian religion, "Indraism" 2) It is surprisingly male-oriented - female deities are marginalised to an extent which looks suspicious. 3) It is very war-like (see point 1), which would seem to indicate that it reflects the historical situation of migration and war-like encounters, a situation where religion may take on innovative aspects. (The old discussion about the "demons" of India being Dravidian or not, is irrelevant. What goes on on earth necessarily goes on in heaven, so Indra's fight against demons will reflect a fighting situation on earth, whoever he is fighting). As far as I am concerned, generally speaking, the most conservative thing about the RV is the language. Let me ask you: when do you think that the RV was created? Some more info, please! Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lasic at OEAW.AC.AT Mon Oct 19 08:17:50 1998 From: lasic at OEAW.AC.AT (Horst Lasic) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 09:17:50 +0100 Subject: annaM vai ... Message-ID: <161227041868.23782.5075979371846028359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > while translating Nyaabhashya I came across this phrase: annam vai > praa.nina.h praa.naa.h.(NBh I.1.2 p.76.16 in Nyaadarzanam, with > Vaatsyaayana's Bhaashya, Uddyotakara's Vaarttika, Vaacaspati Mizra's > Taatparya.tiikaa & Vizvanaatha's V.rtti, New Delhi, Munshiram > Manoharlal, 1985). It seems certainly to be a quotation, but I was not > able to identify source from which it was taken. Could anybody of you > help me in this connection? I'll be very grateful for any relevant > infromation. > > Dmitry Olenev. Anantalal Thakur says ( in his edition of the NBh, New Delhi 1997) with regard to this sentence that one should look at Mahaabhaarata 13.63.25. Have also a look at NBh ad 2.2.62 and 4.1.54. Horst Lasic From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Oct 19 09:43:20 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 10:43:20 +0100 Subject: [Book announcement] Oberhammer, Studies in Hinduism II Message-ID: <161227041872.23782.794685981521399981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:55:01 +0000 From: Raffaele Torella Subject: book announcement [...] <<< G. Oberhammer (ed.), Studies in Hinduism II: Miscellanea to the Phenomenon of Tantras, Oesterreichisce Akademie der Wissenschaften, Philosophisch-Historische Klasse, Sitzungsberichte, 662. Band, Wien 1998. Content: A. Padoux, Concerning Tantric Traditions (pp.9-20) G. Oberhammer, Beobachtungen zur "Offenbarungsgeschichte" der Paramasamhita (pp.21-42) M. Czerniak-Drozdzowicz, Srstikrama - Order of Creation in the Paramasamhita (pp.43-54) R. Torella, The kancukas in the Saiva and Vaisnava Tantric Tradition: A Few Considerations between Theology and Grammar (pp.55-86) H. Brunner, The Sexual Aspect of the linga Cult according to the Saiddhantika Scriptures (pp.87-103). Raffaele Torella, Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" (fax: 6-4451209) From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Mon Oct 19 08:50:36 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 12:50:36 +0400 Subject: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041881.23782.5843706626680879898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Mon Oct 19 12:48:54 MSD 1998 George Thompson wrote (19 Oct.): >In response to the recent remarks of Yaroslav Vassilkov: >I think that a couple of assumptions are being made here which need to be >examined. > To say that the Scyths >"emerged" in the 8th cent BCE means only that somebody started to notice >them at that point. I see no reason to assume that the Scythian language, >like proto-Latin and proto-German, did not exist during the Vedic period. >Of course it did, even if we have no direct record of it. The same applies >to the culture. Perhaps I should have said that certain "proto-Scythians" >were contemporaries of our RV poets. Okay. But my point, I think, stands. I doubt it. I am very much interested in your attempts to trace in the RV evidence of some Indo-Iranian interaction (though I would refer this evidence not to the period of the original Indo-Iranian community, but to the "second Indo-Iranian period", when Eastern Iranians and Proto-Indo-Aryans met again on the territory of BMAC). But I can not agree when you use the term "Scythian" for the Eastern Iranian element in the RV. We designate by the name "Scyths / Scythians" only those specific people of the Eurasian steppes who used very distinctive sets of metal weapons and horse harness and developed the Animal style. The "Scythian language" known to us mostly due to proper names preserved by the Greek records, was one of the dialects (a northern one) of the Ancient Eastern Iranian. But the Scyths or Scythian culture did not exist before 8th cent. BC. We know very well that this culture "emerged" , though in a somewhat revolutionary way, out of the related preceeding cultures, such as Timber Grave and Andronovo: but nobody would ever suggest that the people of these ancient cultures spoke "Scythian" or even "Proto-Scythian" language. It would be much more reasonable to suggest that their language was rather some early dialect of Ancient Eastern Iranian. And there are even less reasons to call "Scythian" the dialects spoken by those Eastern Iranian tribes that had moved southwards, to the borders of India, and had come there into contact with Indo-Aryans some centuries before the Scythian culture came into being. >The name 'kanIta' seems to have stronger ties with Iranian than with Indic. >It is a hapax legomenon in the RV, and utterly disappears thereafter >[except for a quotation in a zrauta sUtra]. On the other hand, we have the >name of a Scythian prince, Kanites. Why should we doubt an historical [or >prehistorical] connection between the Vedic and the Scythian names? There is no doubt in the Iranian origin of the name 'kanIta'. But why should we consider it to be a specifically Scythian name, and not Eastern Iranian in general? >Given the presence of camels, mathra horses, dogs, etc, in RV 8.46, I think >it is reasonable to suppose that the Vedic prince pRthuzravas, son of a >certain kanIta, was a descendent of a proto-Scythian.... As far as I know the Scyths proper (contrary to the Central Asian Eastern Iranians) were natural horsemen (but not charioters) and did not use camels. >When I close my eyes and imagine what this ancestor of pRthuzravas actually >might have looked like, given the scanty description in RV 8.46, I see a >cultural figure that is closer in form [dress, customs, cultural outlook, >etc.] to Scythian than to, say, Gangetic. Perhaps my imagination is wrong. >But what I know of Scythian culture is frequently reminiscent of what I >know of Vedic. This would be worth talking about some more. If the person which you see in your meditations were Scythian, then it should wear a conical hat, leather trousers and some other very specific dress items, which, as is well known, came to India only with the SAka invaders in the 1st century BC. Best wishes, Yaroslav Vassilkov From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Oct 19 15:18:00 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 98 16:18:00 +0100 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." In-Reply-To: <199810150653.KAA32504@icarus.uom.ac.mu> Message-ID: <161227041877.23782.12262025815097605196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Girish Kumar Beeharry wrote: > I do not agree with that. 'jna' has the connotation of birth, flow and > being perennial. This is missing in 'incognita'. Oops, your dhatus are showing. D. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Tue Oct 20 06:35:40 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 08:35:40 +0200 Subject: jan- & jnA- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041878.23782.10045976818487272040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Girish Kumar Beeharry wrote: > >> I do not agree with that (*). 'jna' has the connotation of birth, flow and >> being perennial. This is missing in 'incognita'. > >Oops, your dhatus are showing. > >Dominik I suppose uneasy for some Indians, not knowing Latin, to see jnA- in the "gni" of incognita. But I've found interesting the sentiment of a link between jan- and jnA-. I don't know if an early identity of the two roots is true, but curiously they have almost merged in French where 'to be born, birth' are 'naitre, naissance' and 'to know, knowledge' are 'connaitre, connaissance' (the loss of initial 'g' is from Latin). Not felt by common speakers (other forms differ: 'born, known' are 'ne, connu') but the poet Jean Cocteau gave in "Art Poetique" a theory of knowledge based on "connaitre = co-naitre", hence "to know is to be born with". Best regards, Dominique (*) I've used ajnAtaH to translate incognitus. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Tue Oct 20 10:18:04 1998 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 12:18:04 +0200 Subject: address of Sims-Williams Message-ID: <161227041927.23782.494546347016138566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A collegue of mine is in need of the address of Prof. N. Sims-Williams, mail or email. Thanks in advance Harry Falk From gkb at ICARUS.UOM.AC.MU Tue Oct 20 13:09:33 1998 From: gkb at ICARUS.UOM.AC.MU (Girish K Beeharry) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 17:09:33 +0400 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041882.23782.16896850026051774422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Dominique THILLAUD wrote > I suppose uneasy for some Indians, not knowing Latin, to see jnA- >in the "gni" of incognita. But I've found interesting the sentiment of a >>link between jan- and jnA-. I don't know if an early identity of the two >roots is true, but curiously they have almost merged in French where 'to be >born, birth' are 'naitre, naissance' and 'to know, knowledge' are >'connaitre, connaissance' (the loss of initial 'g' is from Latin). Not felt >by common speakers (other forms differ: 'born, known' are 'ne, connu') but >the poet Jean Cocteau gave in "Art Poetique" a theory of knowledge based on >"connaitre = co-naitre", hence "to know is to be born with". I am not Indian, I have done some elementary Latin and I did not feel uneasy. :-) I gave the example of a French word so that you 'see' the 'clivage' of con-naissance. I am assuming that you are French, please correct me. I am glad that Cocteau said that about 'connaitre'. He said quite a few interesting things besides this, eg:- 'Le mirroir ferait bien de reflechir avant nous renvoyer notre image' (or something to that effect) = 'It would be better if the mirror could reflect before sending back our image'. :-) I have just been educated on the difference between 'jan' and 'j~naa' by Dr Wujastyk! I was just giving the traditional explanation from a Banarasi paNDita: 'j' is the vyanjana connected with birth; in the broader sense. In this context, there is no big difference between 'jan' and 'j~naa'. However, please bear in mind that I am an astronomer... :-) I know that some people like to use Panini's grammar for many root derivation purposes. The traditionally educated paNDitas think otherwise. They have a more ahistorical approach. Best wishes, Girish From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Oct 20 14:58:24 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 18:58:24 +0400 Subject: Indian and Scythian dress Message-ID: <161227041909.23782.2628182714041273809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ommenting on my words >> If the person which you see in your meditations were Scythian, then >> it should wear a conical hat, leather trousers and some other very specific >> dress items, which, as is well known, came to India only with the SAka invaders >> in the 1st century BC. >> Samar Abbas on 21 Oct. 1998 wrote: >I always thought these were characteristic of all Aryan nations. Thus the >Iranian Aryans wore such clothes, as did the Scythic Aryans (as you have >pointed out). If the Indo-Aryans did not wear such clothes, then what did >they wear ? If they did not wear these `Scythic clothes', then did they >adopt the dress of the Dravidians ? These are just thougths that occurred >to me, I do not mean to challenge any authorities on this list (I don't >know much in this field). Though the information on the dress of the Vedic Indians is scanty and far from clear, we can surmise it hardly was very different from the dress of the Epic period, which consisted (for both sexes) of two pieces of cloth ("lower and upper garments" throughout the Mbh, but see especially the Tale of Nala in Book III) of which one was wrapped around the hips and another somehow covered the shoulders (cf. Vedic words adhIvAsa-, upastir-). The upper cape could be sometimes made of skin or fur (Vedic carman-, kRtti-), but the trousers, leather or cloth, were absolutely unknown. It is a historical fact that the trousers as a dress item were invented by the Scyths - the first really nomadic people who started to spent most of their lives on horseback (the Vedic Aryans were not true nomads, their way of life was rather "pastoralism cum agriculture"). Leather boots and belts with metal buckles too may be traced to the cultures of the Scyths and their eastern nomadic neighbours in the Great Steppe: Hunns, Tokharians, Early Turks. All these items we can first see in India on the statues and coins of the zaka and KuSANa rulers, but since the Gupta period or so some of them became common in India (I mean the designs only, but not materials, because leather and fur were very soon discarded in the Indian climatic conditions). The history of Indian and Iranian dress is not a special field of my studies, so I may be wrong in some details. Thanks in advance for any corrections. Yaroslav Vassilkov From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 21 11:49:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 04:49:20 -0700 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" Message-ID: <161227041894.23782.14106417868743558279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" Equivalent Old Tamil saying: aaDat teriyAta taaci, mEDai kONal enRaaLaam. What is the Bengali original? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 21 10:02:08 1998 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 06:02:08 -0400 Subject: Draft 7-bit Indic transliteration scheme Message-ID: <161227041893.23782.5728561704625150683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues In connection with the proposed International Standard for Indic transliteration, I have put on the Web a draft 7-bit scheme, as well as notes on the draft scheme with diacritics. The 7-bit scheme is not supposed to be the best for all purposes, but is intended principally for the transmission and storage of text for direct reading. See: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trdcd0a.htm Please give your comments and suggestions (which are very welcome) before the end of November 1998. With apologies to those who receive more than one copy of this posting, Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 21 15:33:22 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 08:33:22 -0700 Subject: Simhanaatha & Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227041912.23782.1427040405458839264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Buddhist iconography, is there a relationship between Simhanaatha & Avalokitezvara? After the decline of Mahayana in Sri Lanka, Avalokitesvara sculptures were renamed as Natha ones and worshipped. Is this Naatha related to Simhanaatha? In the Nagapattinam buddhist bronzes, there is a fine Simhanaatha. May be T. N. Ramachandran called it as Simhanatha. It is published in C. Sivaramamurti, South Indian bronzes book also. It looks almost like the raajaliilaasana posture Avalokitesvara sculptures of Sri Lanka. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Wed Oct 21 16:10:29 1998 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 09:10:29 -0700 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" In-Reply-To: <19981021114920.20017.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041920.23782.12748679045005418211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Bengali equivalent: Naachte naa jaanle uthoner dosh Mandakranta Bose Department of Religious Studies/ Director, Programme in Inter-cultural Studies in Asia Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 mbose at interchange.ubc.ca On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, > the yard must be wonky!" > > Equivalent Old Tamil saying: > aaDat teriyAta taaci, mEDai kONal enRaaLaam. > > What is the Bengali original? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Oct 21 14:13:54 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 09:13:54 -0500 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041898.23782.15155195418785008978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An Equivalent Kannada Saying: kuNilaarada suuLe, nela Donku yendaLu ( a prostitute who couldnt dance, claimed that the floor was bad" > >That is interesting. Marathi has an exact parallel: > > naatsataa yeiinaa, angaN vaakaDe > > Madhav Deshpande > >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, >> the yard must be wonky!" >> >> Equivalent Old Tamil saying: >> aaDat teriyAta taaci, mEDai kONal enRaaLaam. >> >> What is the Bengali original? >> >> Regards, >> N. Ganesan >> >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Wed Oct 21 07:17:03 1998 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 09:17:03 +0200 Subject: adress needed Message-ID: <161227041886.23782.12502645462900104446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody please give me the adress/ e-mail-adress of Rachel Fell McDermott? Thank you! marianna kropf From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Wed Oct 21 08:27:40 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 09:27:40 +0100 Subject: Kabul - vijtAzva - svayambhU Message-ID: <161227041888.23782.14149172211633079365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have two questions: 1) What is the etymology of the name of Kabul (Afghanistan) ? Is it Iranian, or might it be Indo-Aryan ? 2) Does anybody know of a son or successor to a) vijitAzva, son of king pRthu vainya (Padma P. e.a.); b) the teacher svayambhU (MahAbhArata). Erik Seldeslachts University of Ghent Ghent, Belgium From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Oct 21 14:07:12 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 10:07:12 -0400 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" In-Reply-To: <19981021114920.20017.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041896.23782.18110323843536646571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That is interesting. Marathi has an exact parallel: naatsataa yeiinaa, angaN vaakaDe Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, > the yard must be wonky!" > > Equivalent Old Tamil saying: > aaDat teriyAta taaci, mEDai kONal enRaaLaam. > > What is the Bengali original? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 21 17:12:48 1998 From: ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK (Jibunnessa) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 10:12:48 -0700 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices." Message-ID: <161227041890.23782.17201510065455754422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Agnes > I just found "Incognita" in our library. So if you still > need Wendy Doniger's paper, just pass me your snail-mail > address, and I will send you a copy. Thank you so much for your kind offer! I have however, now managed to get in touch with Wendy Doniger herself, and she has posted off a copy for me. I should get this within a few days. I would also like to thank others who have written in response to my message. ...And I must say, I am greatly enjoying the offshoot discussion that this has sparked off! Great fun :-)! Thank you all! All the best Jibunnessa -- Jibunnessa Abdullah Fax: (+44) 181 731-9770 ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Wed Oct 21 14:17:20 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 10:17:20 -0400 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" Message-ID: <161227041900.23782.16587940311909114356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Telugu equivalent : 'Aada Leka maDDilani DeppinaTlu.' (One who cannot dance, claim Drum/drummer is not good enough for) SNS wrote: > > An Equivalent Kannada Saying: > kuNilaarada suuLe, nela Donku yendaLu > ( a prostitute who couldnt dance, claimed that the floor was bad" > > > > >That is interesting. Marathi has an exact parallel: > > > > naatsataa yeiinaa, angaN vaakaDe > > > > Madhav Deshpande > > > >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------ > >> Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, > >> the yard must be wonky!" > >> > >> Equivalent Old Tamil saying: > >> aaDat teriyAta taaci, mEDai kONal enRaaLaam. > >> > >> What is the Bengali original? > >> > >> Regards, > >> N. Ganesan > >> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > > > > > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* > * ? * > * * > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* -- ********************************************************************************* * Krishna Prasad Konduru * * GFX Systems, Merrill Lynch 790, NewArk Avenue * * 16th Floor, World Financial Center, New York Apartment 3F * * Ph: 212-449-5712 (O) Fax : 212-449-6789 (O) Jersey City * * : 201-239-1429 (R) New Jersey 07306 * * Pg: 917-314-3411 * * Be: 1-888-MERRIL0 * ********************************************************************************* From lpatton at EMORY.EDU Wed Oct 21 14:38:33 1998 From: lpatton at EMORY.EDU (Laurie Patton) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 10:38:33 -0400 Subject: adress needed In-Reply-To: <362D8A6F.48BB3F4E@theol.unibe.ch> Message-ID: <161227041902.23782.3776859363254101013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rachel Mcdermott is in India at present, and then returning to London in a few week's time. She will probably be checking her e-mail upon return to Europe. Her address is rmcdermo at barnard.columbia.edu her snail mail is: Asian Studies Barnard College Milbank Hall New York, NY 10027 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton + Dept. of Religion + Emory University + Atlanta, GA 30322 + PH: 404-727-5177 + FAX: 404-727-7597 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Marianna Kropf wrote: > Could anybody please give me the adress/ e-mail-adress of Rachel Fell > McDermott? Thank you! > > marianna kropf > From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Wed Oct 21 10:54:13 1998 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 10:54:13 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and the Internet Message-ID: <161227041891.23782.8416834479918467808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have had an enquiry directed to me about whether there is anyone currently doing research on Hinduism and the Internet. This is specifically in connection with an international conference on media, religion and culture to be held in Edinburgh next July (20th-23rd) but also for more general information. Does anyone have any information that I could pass on? John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 650 6804 From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 21 14:57:49 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 10:57:49 -0400 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" In-Reply-To: <362DECF0.4CFE@genesis.ml.com> Message-ID: <161227041907.23782.2906860313190270848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Looks like there are not many Hindi speaking in the group.. We memorised as children: naach na jaane aangan TeDhaa I speak Oriya. There is no Oriya equivalent that I know. Bijoy Misra On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Krishna P Konduru wrote: > Telugu equivalent : > > 'Aada Leka maDDilani DeppinaTlu.' > (One who cannot dance, claim Drum/drummer is not good enough for) > > > SNS wrote: > > > > An Equivalent Kannada Saying: > > kuNilaarada suuLe, nela Donku yendaLu > > ( a prostitute who couldnt dance, claimed that the floor was bad" > > > > > > > >That is interesting. Marathi has an exact parallel: > > > > > > naatsataa yeiinaa, angaN vaakaDe > > > > > > Madhav Deshpande > > > > > >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------ > > >> Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, > > >> the yard must be wonky!" > > >> > > >> Equivalent Old Tamil saying: > > >> aaDat teriyAta taaci, mEDai kONal enRaaLaam. > > >> > > >> What is the Bengali original? > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> N. Ganesan > > >> > > >> > > >> ______________________________________________________ > > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >> > > > > > > > > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* > > * ? * > > * * > > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* > > -- > > > > ********************************************************************************* > * Krishna Prasad > Konduru * > * GFX Systems, Merrill Lynch 790, NewArk > Avenue * > * 16th Floor, World Financial Center, New York Apartment > 3F * > * Ph: 212-449-5712 (O) Fax : 212-449-6789 (O) Jersey > City * > * : 201-239-1429 (R) New Jersey > 07306 * > * Pg: > 917-314-3411 > * > * Be: > 1-888-MERRIL0 > * > ********************************************************************************* > From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Wed Oct 21 08:00:00 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 12:00:00 +0400 Subject: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041884.23782.12307532990409195678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > If the person which you see in your meditations were Scythian, then > it should wear a conical hat, leather trousers and some other very specific > dress items, which, as is well known, came to India only with the SAka invaders > in the 1st century BC. > I always thought these were characteristic of all Aryan nations. Thus the Iranian Aryans wore such clothes, as did the Scythic Aryans (as you have pointed out). If the Indo-Aryans did not wear such clothes, then what did they wear ? If they did not wear these `Scythic clothes', then did they adopt the dress of the Dravidians ? These are just thougths that occurred to me, I do not mean to challenge any authorities on this list ( I don't know much in this field). Samar From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Oct 21 16:10:46 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 12:10:46 -0400 Subject: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041916.23782.8764408734786956839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I appreciate very much Yaroslav Vassilkov's well-informed and reasonable objections to my claims re the name kAnIta', and to my general remarks about Scythians. It is gratifying to know that it is still possible to disagree about such matters without impugning the motives of our rivals [aside to Bijoy Misra: no, my views have nothing at all to do with "nationalistic research" -- I am not involved at all, politically, ethnically, or religiously, with *any* of the relevant groups]. The interesting thing about the name *kAnIta'* is in fact its extreme isolation. Not only is it not attested in later Indic [except for the quotation already mentioned]. It is not attested in Iranian either, except for the reference [I still need to track down this exact reference] to a Scythian Kanites in a Greek source [presumably Herodotos]. The reason why I find Thieme's analysis of this name unconvincing is this very isolation of the term [besides the fact that the suffix -ta- is rare]. As far as I can tell, the only evidence that *kAnIta'* is Iranian is the refermnce to Kanites, a Scythian. It is the very isolation of the term that makes it likely that the term is a borrowing from another language, rather than an internal development [as Thieme's analysis of *kanIta, 'durch eine Jungfrau charakerisiert', argues]. Admittedly, I am not certain that the Vedic name *kAnIta'* is a Scythian name. But if the ONLY evidence that is available to us is a certain similiarity with a Scythian name, then it may well be more precise to say that the name may be Scythian, rather than vaguely Iranian. As for the more general comments: of course the horse is by far the most significant of pazus for the Scyths. But camels were not totally absent. According to Sulimirski [cited previously, p.195], camels bones have been found at Kamyamka, and a full skeleton "was excavated in the princely burial at Novosiolka near Lipovets." ****************************************** I have just received V.V.'s recent post about Indian and Iranian dress. I agree about the trousers. But I think that leather [skins of various sorts] was rather more commonly worn by Vedic than by Epic peoples. Horse-back riding was known in the RV [cf 1.162.17 & 1.163.9]. See also the non-RV term azvasAdin. When so engaged, a Vedic person might well have been wearing carman-mlAta [= Avestan car^man mrAta], i.e., tanned skins [cf. also RV carmamna'H, where the form mna- shows dissimilation of the -r-]. Forms like suvasana and surabhi might refer to tight-fitting clothing, though not trousers. Admittedly, however, we don't have a clear picture of Vedic dress in general. Having pointed out important differences in dress, etc., between Scythian and Vedic culture, perhaps V.V. could comment on what appear to me to be important similarities? I would be very interested to hear. GT From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Oct 21 16:17:16 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 12:17:16 -0400 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041918.23782.8236646793496918245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the recent post of Lars Martin Fosse: I don't think that my view of the date of the RV is very far removed from the consensus of those who have studied the problem [e.g., those involved in the 1995 volume edited by Erdosy]. Whereas the standard dating gives something like a range from 1500 BCE t0 1200 BCE, I am inclined toward a range of 1200 BCE to 1000 BCE, with a strong inclination toward later dating. The primary reason for this preference for later dating is a comparison with Old Avestan texts. In the early stages of this discussion last summer, I asserted the view that the RV appeared to me to be more or less contemporary with these Old Avestan texts: the Gathas of Zarathustra and the Yasna Haptanhaiti. The more I study this issue, the more I am convinced that this is true. Scholars have known for quite some time that the formulaic language of the RV has much in common with that of these Avestan texts. But I believe that the similarities are not simply the result of a common heritage [linguistic, poetic, ritual]. With the RV and Old Avestan we appear to stand almost at the node where these two branches of Indo-Iranian begin to branch off in their separate directions. This is a question that I would like to gain insight into. If the branching took place at @ 2000 BCE, which I think is generally assumed, how could these texts, which I presume to date at @ 1000 BCE, be close to the node? I don't pretend to know how to explain this. But it seems to me that either the date of the node is wrong or the branching did not obliterate mutual intelligibility between the two language-families. That is, there is still probably mutual intelligibility between the languages at this stage. And I believe that I have also found examples of mutual self-reference. Now, if RV poets are referring to Avestan rivals and Avestan ones are referring to RV rivals, it is clear that they have to be contemporaries, and in contact with each other. More on the dating later. GT From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Oct 21 18:22:04 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 14:22:04 -0400 Subject: Kabul - vijtAzva - svayambhU Message-ID: <161227041925.23782.13178397835111196165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Erik Seldeslachts's first question: >I have two questions: > >1) What is the etymology of the name of Kabul (Afghanistan) ? Is it >Iranian, or might it be Indo-Aryan ? > Kabul = Vedic ku'bhA, a river name. I don't think that there is a successful etyomology for it, so that we cannot say that it is either Indo-Aryan or Iranian [where it does not appear to be attested]. Kuiper [*Aryans in the Rgveda*, p.89] suggests that it is "a local river name that was adopted by the Indo-Aryans." Similarly, see Witzel's articles in the Erdosy volume. The river is cited by Greek authors as kOphEs, kOphEn, in Latin as Cophes. Hope this helps. GT From ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 21 23:46:21 1998 From: ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK (Jibunnessa) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 16:46:21 -0700 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" Message-ID: <161227041914.23782.2514808249156376826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan The Bengali for: ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" is: "Naachte na janle uthan beka!" All the best Jibunnessa -- Jibunnessa Abdullah Fax: (+44) 181 731-9770 ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" From ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 22 01:56:14 1998 From: ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK (Jibunnessa) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 18:56:14 -0700 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" Message-ID: <161227041923.23782.3569089124671229013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mandakranta > The Bengali equivalent: > Naachte naa jaanle uthoner dosh I'm very interested to see your variation on my 'Old Bengali Saying'. I haven't heard this one before. Perhaps we're looking at an East/West Bengal dichotomy here? However, as you know, "Naachte naa jaanle uthoner dosh", actually means "If you don't know how to dance, it's the yard's fault!" Whereas, "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!", is actually "Naachte na janle uthan beka!" in Bangla. I don't know about you, but I do think that my 'wonky floor' is much more visual and more fun than some unspecified, ambiguous 'fault'! ...Don't you agree? All the best Jibunnessa -- Jibunnessa Abdullah Fax: (+44) 181 731-9770 ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Wed Oct 21 16:46:22 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 20:46:22 +0400 Subject: Kabul - vijtAzva - svayambhU In-Reply-To: <362D9AFC.F02@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227041904.23782.17731035347366796533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps Kabul is related to `Zabulstan', another name for the Kabul region. If so, then since the -stan exists, it would be Iranian. I once heard that Zabulstan was derived from Arabic, ie. Zab-ul stan (zab of something), but I don't know what Zab would be in Arabic. Hope this helps. On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > I have two questions: > > 1) What is the etymology of the name of Kabul (Afghanistan) ? Is it > Iranian, or might it be Indo-Aryan ? > > 2) Does anybody know of a son or successor to > a) vijitAzva, son of king pRthu vainya (Padma P. e.a.); > b) the teacher svayambhU (MahAbhArata). > > Erik Seldeslachts > University of Ghent > Ghent, Belgium > From mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT Wed Oct 21 19:52:54 1998 From: mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT (Mauro MAGGI) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 20:52:54 +0100 Subject: Address of N. Sims-Williams Message-ID: <161227041933.23782.13937958209848428454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. N. Sims-Williams e-mail address is ns5 at soas.ac.uk. Dr. Mauro Maggi Corso Antonio Gramsci 13 00045 Genzano di Roma Italia Tel. +39069364890 From cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK Wed Oct 21 20:16:03 1998 From: cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK (Christopher J Fynn) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 21:16:03 +0100 Subject: Newari Script Table In-Reply-To: <001301bdfd2c$f641d5e0$3e002fd4@lengqie> Message-ID: <161227041934.23782.17825313469680425199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- Christopher Fynn Petr Mares wrote: > Does anybody know about any online transcription table for Nepalese Newari > script. I need to transcribe Newari dharani either to IPA or to Devanagari. > Sincerely > Petr Mares Try: for transcription, and for the proposed ISO 10646 encoding standards for the Nepali and Rajana scripts. The first two are large files. You you will need Adobe's Acrobat Reader plug-in installed in your browser to view any of them as they are PDF files. Acrobat Reader is available from - Chris From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Oct 21 19:56:57 1998 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 21:56:57 +0200 Subject: Newari Script Table Message-ID: <161227041929.23782.380346318311427685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Does anybody know about any online transcription table for Nepalese Newari script. I need to transcribe Newari dharani either to IPA or to Devanagari. Sincerely Petr Mares From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Oct 21 17:20:03 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 22:20:03 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227041931.23782.5044555780696593319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lord Siva is of fair complexion. I assume him to be Aryan. He is kRittivAsa, one who wears skin (elephant's or tiger's). regards, sarma. On Wed Oct 21 Yaroslav Vassilkov wrote <> From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Wed Oct 21 18:22:47 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 03:22:47 +0900 Subject: Dates of Utpaladeva Message-ID: <161227041944.23782.8328467368755611509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I don't have the pertinent library-resources available at the moment, could someone please fill me in on the current state of research regarding the dates of Utpaladeva and Abhinavagupta (esp. the former)? My most recent source of reference (Torella's 1994 edition of the I'svarapratyabhij~naakaarikaa) states 900/925-950/975 for Utpaladeva. Many thanks in advance, -- birgit kellner department for indian philosophy hiroshima university From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 22 11:38:24 1998 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 07:38:24 -0400 Subject: Ashram Patronage In-Reply-To: <19981019123235.10116.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041937.23782.17308753945045233965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To secure an ancillary point I am making in a little project, I want to assert that, as far as we know, there was little change in the patronage of forest hermitages during the urbanisation of the Medieval period. The specific area on which I am concentrating is the Hoysala Dynasty in South-Central Karnataka, but general trends would help to make the point. Reason would dictate that, as it would not be a huge expenditure, kings would still continue to fulfill their dharmic responsibility and support a'srams even though temples grew to dominate religious praxis. What do we know about patterns in the patronage of a'rams? What sources might emerge that would prove or disprove this hypothesis -- inscriptions, references in literature (i.e., "King Ramendra has come into a bad way, no longer does he support the tapas of the hermitage!" &c. &c.)? My hunch is that there is not going to be much, and I will have to assume that most empires would have maintained their a'srams. But any information that might pertain would be most welcome. Thanks in advance, Walker Trimble From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Oct 22 11:54:45 1998 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 07:54:45 -0400 Subject: "The Tale of the Indo-European Horse Sacrifices" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041938.23782.10634527691151744508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've heard the Hindi/Urdu counterpart as naach na aave aaNgan TeRH This is a neat proverb because you can read it two ways: If you don't know how to dance, you contrive an alibi by falsely blaming the "crookedness" of the courtyard. (I think this is the more obvious meaning.) If you don't know how to dance, your clumsiness makes you truly experience the courtyard as one that IS crooked. Or maybe I am just over-reading it... :) On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Mandakranta Bose wrote: > The Bengali equivalent: > Naachte naa jaanle uthoner dosh > > > Equivalent Old Tamil saying: > > aaDat teriyAta taaci, mEDai kONal enRaaLaam. > > > > Regards, > > N. Ganesan From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE Thu Oct 22 20:46:49 1998 From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 13:46:49 -0700 Subject: Kabul - vijtAzva - svayambhU Message-ID: <161227041940.23782.4515155712064790913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > > In response to Erik Seldeslachts's first question: > > >What is the etymology of the name of Kabul (Afghanistan)? Is it > >Iranian, or might it be Indo-Aryan? > > > Kabul = Vedic ku'bhA, a river name. I don't think that there is a > successful etyomology for it, so that we cannot say that it is either > Indo-Aryan or Iranian [where it does not appear to be attested]. Kuiper > [*Aryans in the Rgveda*, p.89] suggests that it is "a local river name > that was adopted by the Indo-Aryans." Similarly, see Witzel's articles > in the Erdosy volume. The river is cited by Greek authors as kOphEs, > kOphEn, in Latin as Cophes. Does anyone kow what the river Kabul and the ter- rain near and around the city of Kabul look like? A reason for asking this question is that there are in Europe place- and rivernames similar to Kabul. See Hans Bahlow: Deutschlands geograph- ische Namenwelt, Frankfurt am Main, 1965: Kabel, in 839 'Cavila' and Kobel, in 890 'silva Cobolo'. Acc. to Bahlow these names are "Bezeichnungen fuer Wasser, Sumpf" and suffixes -ul, -ol mean "swamp". In southern Sweden near the Baltic there is a pla- ce called Kabusa at a swampy/dirty creek also cal- led Kabusa. Acc. to a heretic but plausible etymo- logy Kabusa equals Kab- "dirty" and -usa "water". Cfr European rivers: the Usa in Germany, the Ouse, 780 Usa, in England and the Ousse in France. The Oxford Concise Dict-y of Engl. Placenames, 1936, Ouse, has: "A Brit rivername from the root ved-, ud- 'water', found in Sanskrit udan- 'water', udra 'a water animal' Engl. otter, OIr usce 'water' &c." If the characteristics of the river and/or place Kabul do fit Bahlow's definitions could not that name be an "Ur-Aryan" combined water-/place-name referring to swamp/'dirty' water analogous with such old names in Europe, acc. to Balow. RSVP Sincerely Raoul Martens From sharmave at UNIVE.IT Thu Oct 22 13:50:06 1998 From: sharmave at UNIVE.IT (Ghanshyam Sharma) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 15:50:06 +0200 Subject: "crookednes" of the courtyard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227041942.23782.8196776674759635255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Almost all Hindi dialects have this proverb, though the following form has become somewhat "standard" in written Hindi: naac na jaane (aave) aaNgan TeRHaa. Some other dialectal variants are: naac = naacibau, nacibo na = naa, nii, kuNi, koni jaane = jaaNe aave = aabe, aabai aaNgan = aNgnaa, aaNgnaa, aaNgaN TeRHaa = TeRHo, TeDo, TaiRHyo, TeDyo etc. (randomly arranged) Like all proverbs this one too may have different meanings according to the context in which it is used. Nevertheless, I will stick with the "ordinary" meaning of the proverb, i.e.: One (she/he/they/you) doesn't know how to dance, yet blames the "crookedness" of the courtyard. (I don't know if it makes any sense in English.) At 07.54 22/10/98 -0400, Frances Pritchett wrote: >I've heard the Hindi/Urdu counterpart as > >naach na aave aaNgan TeRH > >This is a neat proverb because you can read it two ways: > >If you don't know how to dance, you contrive an alibi by falsely blaming >the "crookedness" of the courtyard. (I think this is the more obvious >meaning.) > >If you don't know how to dance, your clumsiness makes you truly experience >the courtyard as one that IS crooked. > >Or maybe I am just over-reading it... :) > From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Oct 22 23:49:08 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 16:49:08 -0700 Subject: Sarasvati River: Himalayan Glaciology and Projects Message-ID: <161227041949.23782.13177816161577487572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The following URL updates provide details on: 1) Glaciological and Geological Sources of Vedic Sarasvati River in the Himalayas http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/glaciology/glaciology1.htm (Recent Geosciences monograph by Dr. VMK Puri and BC Verma, Geological Survey of India) 2)Slides/Poster Presentations: Get Involved in ongoing Sarasvati River Heritage and Development Projects The URLs are: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/poster/poster1.pdf http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/poster/poster1.ppt http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/rigveda/Sans12.TTF (required to read Rigvedic r.ca_s in Devana_gari, included on some slides/poster pages) Please feel free to download these slides/poster presentations to any interested groups of sis.t.a_s and professionals. I would deeply appreciate receiving comments and suggestions. Thanking you and with the best regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From bvi at AFN.ORG Thu Oct 22 20:58:50 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 16:58:50 -0400 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227041946.23782.16672929363117174404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have heard from a South Indian Saivite that the Siva temples model Siva's abode of Kailasa. Is this a common theme that temples of a particular Deity represent the abode of the particular Deity, or different parts of the cosmology correspond to structures within a temple? Are there papers or books on this subject? Or do you know people who have studied it? Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From krishna at TICNET.COM Fri Oct 23 03:39:26 1998 From: krishna at TICNET.COM (Krishna Susarla) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 22:39:26 -0500 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava literatures Message-ID: <161227041951.23782.16239428585278831889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me if there are any good translations of the following books: ShaT-sandarbhas by jiiva gosvaamii vedaanta-shyamantaka by baladeva vidyabhuuShana govinda-bhaaShya by baladeva vidyabhuuShana Also, I have heard that Baladeva Vidyabhuushana wrote a commentary on Bhagavad-Giitaa. I would appreciate it if anyone could point me in the right direction for acquiring copy. I am interested in translations which have both the Sanskrit and English. But if I can only get them in separate Sanskrit and English publications, then that would be adequate. Thanks in advance, -- Krishna Susarla From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT Thu Oct 22 21:40:34 1998 From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 22:40:34 +0100 Subject: Dates of Utpaladeva In-Reply-To: <362E2677.D138A28B@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227041947.23782.2924742955871838064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As I don't have the pertinent library-resources available at the moment, >could someone please fill me in on the current state of research >regarding the dates of Utpaladeva and Abhinavagupta (esp. the former)? > >My most recent source of reference (Torella's 1994 edition of the >I'svarapratyabhij~naakaarikaa) states 900/925-950/975 for Utpaladeva. > >Many thanks in advance, > > >-- >birgit kellner >department for indian philosophy >hiroshima university Utpaladeva's date mainly depends on Abhinavagupta's. Fortunately, the latter was kind enough to put a (reliable) date at the end of his I'svarapratyabhij~naa-vivrtivimarsini, which is likely to be one of his last works. The date is 1015 A.D.(with the usual fluctuation of some months). Utpaladeva is Abhinava's paramaguru. With best wishes, Raffaele Torella Raffaele Torella, Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" (fax:0039- 06-4451209) From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Fri Oct 23 21:08:31 1998 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Ghosh-Beverborg) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 11:08:31 -1000 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227041962.23782.17439468945602952590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > Are there papers or books on this subject? Or do you know people who > have studied it? Sorry; this might be a long list but I thought other listmembers might be interested, too: -Akrisch, M.; 1987: "Comment decrire les objets techniques". in: Techniques et Culture, No. 9: p. 49-63. -Beck, Brenda; 1969: "Colour and Heat in South Indian Ritual." in Man, No. 4: p. 553-572. -Harle, James C.; 1963: "Temple Gateways in South India: The Architecture and Iconography of the Cidambaram Gopuras." Oxford: Bruno Cassirer Ltd. -Lansing, J.S.; 1991: "Priests and Programmers: Technologies of Power in the Engineered Landscape of Bali." Princeton: Princeton University Press. -Leach, Edmond; 1983: "The Gatekeepers of Heaven." Journals of Anthropological Research, No. 39/3: p. 243-264. -Link, Hilde; 1993: "Das Unbegreifbare greifbar machen: S"udindische Baumeister gestalten einen sakralen Platz." in Anthropos, No. 88: p. 194-201. -Michell, George; 1991: "Der Hindu-Tempel. Baukunst einer Weltreligion." K"oln: DuMont Verlag. -Pfaffenberger, Bryan; 1980: "The Hindu Temple as a Machine, or, the Western Machine as a Temple". in: Techniques et Culture, No. 16: p. 183-202. -Pfaffenberger, Bryan; 1988: "Fetishised Objects and Human Nature: Towards an Anthropology of Technology." in Man, No. 23: p. 236-252. -Staudenmaier, J.M.; 1989: "The Politics of Successfull Technologies", p. 150-171 in S.H. Cutlippe and R.C. Post: "In Context: History and the History of Technology." Betlehem: Lehigh University Press. As you can see there's a lot of literature in the anthropological field. I found the readings above all very interesting and enlightening, there is more but unfortunately I don't have my papers at hand. George Michell's book is a primer and a must for anybody interested in Indian Temple architecture. It should be available in various translations. Mr. Tobias Ghosh-Beverborg ************************** surfah at kahala.net grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.skulptur.de/ http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/ http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/digrs/ From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Oct 23 11:13:17 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 12:13:17 +0100 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227041953.23782.17784346530603996367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:58 22.10.98 -0400, you wrote: >I have heard from a South Indian Saivite that the Siva temples model Siva's >abode of Kailasa. >Is this a common theme that temples of a particular Deity represent the >abode of the particular Deity, or different parts of the cosmology >correspond to structures within a temple? Are there papers or >books on this subject? Or do you know people who have studied it? > >Thank you for your help. > >Chris Beetle > > What immediately comes to mind are: "The Hindu Temple" by Stella Kramrisch (Calcutta 1946; reprinted in Delhi 1976 by Motilal Banarsidass), and "Architecture, Time and Eternity. Studies in the Stellar and Temporal Symbolism of Traditional Buildings" by Adrian Snodgrass, Delhi 1990), where extensive bibliography. With regards, Artur Karp From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Oct 23 19:18:25 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 12:18:25 -0700 Subject: Indian and Scythian Dress Message-ID: <161227041959.23782.12601939169751486217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: [snip]The upper and lower> garments for men (consisting of a precursor to the `dhoti' and an upper> cloth thrown around the chest) and women are mentioned as being in use in> the period 1000-1200 AD [ `Social and Cultural History of Northern India> 1000-1200 AD', Prof. B.N.Sharma, Abhinav Publications New Delhi 1972 ].> Thus it seems that Indo-Aryan dress hadn't changed much from 1500 BC - > 1200 AD, a period of 2700 years !>[snip] Perhaps, from 2700 BC? (See the priest statue from Mohenjo-daro, wearing an embroidered shawl, neatly-trimmed beard, a fillet tied to the forehead and right-shoulder bare: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/priest.jpg Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Oct 23 10:20:17 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 14:20:17 +0400 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041966.23782.1425498396765801347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Fri Oct 23 11:50:21 MSD 1998 n 21 Oct. George Thompson wrote: >Having pointed out important differences in dress, etc., between Scythian >and Vedic culture, perhaps V.V. could comment on what appear to me to be >important similarities? I would be very interested to hear. From my point of view, the question would rather be divided into two separate questions: 1. Similiarities between Vedic and Scythian cultures. These are not regular and not too evident, which is only natural, because the two cultures were separated not only by centuries in time, but also by great distance geographically, representing the extreme southern and the extreme northern peripheries of the Aryan (Indo-Iranian) world. But at the same time we know that such peripheral cultures quite often preserve most archaic features of the common heritage, and this is true in relation to Vedic Indians and Scyths. There are some common archaic mythological themes, e.g. the bow as a symbol of royal power and succession (I commented on it briefly in my article in "South Asian Achaeology-1993", Helsinki,1994, p.781-785). Or another element of "royal" mythology: the story of the king's marriage to the Sun-maiden, Scythian Tabiti, Sanskrit TapatI, both names meaning "The One who heats" - G.Dumezil proved the genetic identity of Indian and Scythian/Ossetic goddesses in his "Romans de Scythie et d'alentour. Paris, 1978, pp.125-145). By the way the image of TapatI underwent a remarkable transformation on Indian soil: she starts as the Sun-maiden, heavenly spouse of a human king, but even in Mbh I.163-164 her heat is already dangerous and should be controlled; and later, due to the climatic conditions of India, where the sun's heat is rather a curse than a blessing, this Sun-maiden eventually turns into a river-goddess (in the PurANas)! 2. Similiarities between Vedic and Avestan cultures. These are evident, and instead or enumerating them one more time, I would like to comment on a passage from George Thomson's another letter dealing with the nature and origin of these similiarities: >Scholars have known for quite some time that the formulaic language of the >RV has much in common with that of these Avestan texts. But I believe that >the similarities are not simply the result of a common heritage >[linguistic, poetic, ritual]. With the RV and Old Avestan we appear to >stand almost at the node where these two branches of Indo-Iranian begin to >branch off in their separate directions. This is a question that I would >like to gain insight into. If the branching took place at @ 2000 BCE, which >I think is generally assumed, how could these texts, which I presume to >date at @ 1000 BCE, be close to the node? I don't pretend to know how to >explain this. But it seems to me that either the date of the node is wrong >or the branching did not obliterate mutual intelligibility between the two >language-families. This is really a problem! And the only solution I can suggest (highly hypotetical of course) is that the branching (which had to take place earlier than 2000 BC, probably in the end of the IV or in the IIIrd mill.) really, as you say, "did not obliterate mutual intelligibility", and that is the reason why Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranians (Andronovo people), when after centuries of separate migrations (PIA moving probably southwards across the Caucasus mountains and then eastward through the Iranian plateau - to Bactria, and Iranians moving south, from Southern Ural and Kazakhstan - to Bactria again) they reunited on the territory of BMAC, they could still understand each other and more than that: they evidently participated in some common cultural and religious process. Here, at their "second Aryan homelend" they probably went together through a period of some religious reform. In particular, I think it is improbable that the images of gods designed as personifications of abstract notions and moral categories: Mit(h)ra as "Social harmony" or "Friendship", A(i)ryaman as "Hospitality", Ahura Mazda / Asura VaruNa medhira as "Lord Wisdom" (socially: all-seeng sacred ruler, priest-king with miriads of spies) and so on - could appear in the primitive Neolithic Indo-Iranian society of the "first Aryan homeland"; this is rather a result of a religious reform which took place in a priestly mileau, in proto-urban society with temples and complex priestly hierarchy, under strong influence of local ancient civilization(s). Does not it all looks like BMAC? This is, of course, just a hypothesis. Any objections or comments are welcome. Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 23 16:08:21 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 21:08:21 +0500 Subject: C-DAC's new multilingual editor Message-ID: <161227041957.23782.1092837406264221069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C-DAC has released a new multilingual editor whose freeware version is called iLeap Lite. For one thing the key board layout for any language can be kept right in front of your eyes on the monitor screen and charecters can be typed either on the keyboard or by klicking the letters on the keyboard layout on the screen with the mouse. The english/indic language toggle is now ScrollLock instead of CapsLock in the previou version. e-mails can be sent through Leap. regards, sarma. From vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK Fri Oct 23 20:27:10 1998 From: vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Suresh Vedak) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 21:27:10 +0100 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Message-ID: <161227041960.23782.10061284405695965432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > Thank you for this eye-opener, Prof. Vassilkov. The upper and lower > garments for men (consisting of a precursor to the `dhoti' and an upper > cloth thrown around the chest) and women are mentioned as being in use in > the period 1000-1200 AD [ `Social and Cultural History of Northern India > 1000-1200 AD', Prof. B.N.Sharma, Abhinav Publications New Delhi 1972 ]. > Thus it seems that Indo-Aryan dress hadn't changed much from 1500 BC - > 1200 AD, a period of 2700 years ! > > Samar > > On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > > Though the information on the dress of the Vedic Indians is scanty > > and far from clear, we can surmise it hardly was very different from the dress > > of the Epic period, which consisted (for both sexes) of two pieces of cloth > > ("lower and upper garments" throughout the Mbh, but see especially the Tale > > of Nala in Book III) of which one was wrapped around the hips and another > > somehow covered the shoulders (cf. Vedic words adhIvAsa-, upastir-). The upper > > cape could be sometimes made of skin or fur (Vedic carman-, kRtti-), but > > the trousers, leather or cloth, were absolutely unknown. It is a historical > > fact that the trousers as a dress item were invented by the Scyths - the > > first really nomadic people who started to spent most of their lives on > > horseback (the Vedic Aryans were not true nomads, their way of life was > > rather "pastoralism cum agriculture"). Leather boots and belts with metal > > buckles too may be traced to the cultures of the Scyths and their eastern > > nomadic neighbours in the Great Steppe: Hunns, Tokharians, Early Turks. All > > these items we can first see in India on the statues and coins of the zaka and > > KuSANa rulers, but since the Gupta period or so some of them became common in > > India (I mean the designs only, but not materials, because leather and fur > > were very soon discarded in the Indian climatic conditions). > > The history of Indian and Iranian dress is not a special field of > > my studies, so I may be wrong in some details. Thanks in advance for any > > corrections. > > Yaroslav Vassilkov > > From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Fri Oct 23 17:27:23 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 21:27:23 +0400 Subject: Indian and Scythian Dress In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19981022205850.0089d498@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227041955.23782.15301856076540090427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for this eye-opener, Prof. Vassilkov. The upper and lower garments for men (consisting of a precursor to the `dhoti' and an upper cloth thrown around the chest) and women are mentioned as being in use in the period 1000-1200 AD [ `Social and Cultural History of Northern India 1000-1200 AD', Prof. B.N.Sharma, Abhinav Publications New Delhi 1972 ]. Thus it seems that Indo-Aryan dress hadn't changed much from 1500 BC - 1200 AD, a period of 2700 years ! Samar On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > Though the information on the dress of the Vedic Indians is scanty > and far from clear, we can surmise it hardly was very different from the dress > of the Epic period, which consisted (for both sexes) of two pieces of cloth > ("lower and upper garments" throughout the Mbh, but see especially the Tale > of Nala in Book III) of which one was wrapped around the hips and another > somehow covered the shoulders (cf. Vedic words adhIvAsa-, upastir-). The upper > cape could be sometimes made of skin or fur (Vedic carman-, kRtti-), but > the trousers, leather or cloth, were absolutely unknown. It is a historical > fact that the trousers as a dress item were invented by the Scyths - the > first really nomadic people who started to spent most of their lives on > horseback (the Vedic Aryans were not true nomads, their way of life was > rather "pastoralism cum agriculture"). Leather boots and belts with metal > buckles too may be traced to the cultures of the Scyths and their eastern > nomadic neighbours in the Great Steppe: Hunns, Tokharians, Early Turks. All > these items we can first see in India on the statues and coins of the zaka and > KuSANa rulers, but since the Gupta period or so some of them became common in > India (I mean the designs only, but not materials, because leather and fur > were very soon discarded in the Indian climatic conditions). > The history of Indian and Iranian dress is not a special field of > my studies, so I may be wrong in some details. Thanks in advance for any > corrections. > Yaroslav Vassilkov > From langstonrob at JUNO.COM Sat Oct 24 13:05:42 1998 From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (robert b langston) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 98 09:05:42 -0400 Subject: Sarasvati Message-ID: <161227041968.23782.1777222854567617373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone help me regarding the history of the goddess Sarasvati ? I am especially interested in finding an account for the development from river goddess to goddess of arts and learning. Thanks, Robert Langston From krishna at TICNET.COM Sat Oct 24 16:30:42 1998 From: krishna at TICNET.COM (Krishna Susarla) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 98 11:30:42 -0500 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava literatures Message-ID: <161227041970.23782.9047106759375177096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The first Sandharbha (Tattva) has several English translations, the most >notable: one by Stuart Elkmann (1988?)(available from Moti Lal etc.), >another by Satyanarayana Das (1993) published by the Jiva Institute in >Faridabad. >Sorry for the scratchy info but there are no ISBN numbers, etc. for these >types of books. What about for the Tattva-Sandarbha translated by Elkmann. Doesn't this have an ISBN? Also, do you know if he has translated or is planning to translate the other Sandarbhas? yours, -- K From Adrian.Burton at ANU.EDU.AU Sat Oct 24 03:11:37 1998 From: Adrian.Burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 98 13:11:37 +1000 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava literatures In-Reply-To: <009701bdfe36$c1f52700$24e7eed0@krishna_susarla.swmed.edu> Message-ID: <161227041964.23782.11858083735960541737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >ShaT-sandarbhas by jiiva gosvaamii >vedaanta-shyamantaka by baladeva vidyabhuuShana These two books are in print, in Devanagri Sanskrit with Hindi translations by Hari das Shastri of Kaliya Dah in Brindavan and published under the name of : Sri-gadadhara-gaurahari Press, Brindavan, (1982 onwards in six volumes for the Sandarbhas). They can be purchased in several bookstores in Brindavan and are often available from either of the two Chaukambha Sanskrit bookstores on Bangalow Road in Jawahar Nagar in Delhi. The first Sandharbha (Tattva) has several English translations, the most notable: one by Stuart Elkmann (1988?)(available from Moti Lal etc.), another by Satyanarayana Das (1993) published by the Jiva Institute in Faridabad. >govinda-bhaaShya by baladeva vidyabhuuShana This book is in the catalogue of either Munshi Ram or Motilal. (Don't remember off hand exactly) > >Also, I have heard that Baladeva Vidyabhuushana wrote a commentary on >Bhagavad-Giitaa. This book is well out of print. The last edition in Devanagari was published in 1965 by Krishna das Baba in Govardhana (Mathura) and in Bengali script in 1967 by Bhakti Shree Roop Siddhanta (Calcutta) published by the Gaudiya Math. For the Devanagari version the best place to start would be the Krishna Janma Bhoomi Sanshtan in Mathura (who inherited a stock of Krishna das Baba's books after his death), or in second hand book stores in Brindavan. Sorry for the scratchy info but there are no ISBN numbers, etc. for these types of books. happy hunting, Adrian Burton ______________________________________________________________ Adrian Burton tel:(61) (2) 6279 8240 South and West Asia Centre fax:(61) (2) 6279 8326 Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University 0200 ACT Australia From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 24 22:47:36 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 98 15:47:36 -0700 Subject: Hinduism/Net Message-ID: <161227041973.23782.262583981024341699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:10 AM 10/25/98 +-100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Re query from Mr. Brockington, > >I found recently the name of a girl at Colombia working on Hinduism and the >Net, Michelle Caswell: >Accordiong to her presentation she is doing a senior thesis on the ways the >diasporic commuinity uses the web to rethink identities. Case studies. _____ Lars Martin, Shouldn't this be Columbia, in New York, instead of Colombia, in South America? (the email address would probably not work). Best regards, Luis Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 24 22:52:01 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 98 15:52:01 -0700 Subject: Sarasvati Message-ID: <161227041975.23782.6060306065715773868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can start with David Kinsley's book Hindu Goddesses. University of California Press, 1988. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 09:05 AM 10/24/98 EDT, you wrote: >Could anyone help me regarding the history of the goddess Sarasvati ? I >am especially interested in finding an account for the development from >river goddess to goddess of arts and learning. > >Thanks, >Robert Langston > > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 25 00:16:09 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 98 17:16:09 -0700 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227041977.23782.8896895330015624717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is this a common theme that temples of a particular Deity represent the >abode of the particular Deity, or different parts of the cosmology Yes. The Srirangam Ranganatha temple is said to represent Vishnu's abode in Vaikuntha, and the Puri Jagannatha temple is Krishna's palace. Devi temples are also built in the form of the SrIyantra, sometimes also called SrIpura. >correspond to structures within a temple? Are there papers or >books on this subject? Or do you know people who have studied it? Do not forget the people who populate the abode of the deity. The king or queen does not rule over an empty court. And no Hindu cosmology is complete without including man. For studies of the priests, the most important courtiers, and other temple servants, read Arjun Appadurai (Triplicane Parthasarathi temple), Carol Breckenridge and Chris Fuller (both on the Madurai Minakshi temple). As an aside, being a Tamilian, I'm happy that most of these studies are on Tamil Nadu temples. However, I can't help wonder if a larger perspective is lost, by not studying temples from other parts of south and north India. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Oct 25 00:10:59 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 00:10:59 +0000 Subject: Hinduism/Net Message-ID: <161227041972.23782.16349964158542664553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re query from Mr. Brockington, I found recently the name of a girl at Colombia working on Hinduism and the Net, Michelle Caswell: Accordiong to her presentation she is doing a senior thesis on the ways the diasporic commuinity uses the web to rethink identities. Case studies. Also: Prof. Vinay Lal at UCLA: He is an expert on diaspora Hindu studies. He seems to be a helpful person, and has written extensivley. Try this one: Centre for the study of Indian Diaspora in Hyderabad, INdia. I hav enot been in contact with these people, so I don?t know what they are like. See the site www.sunsite.berkeley.edu.SouthAsianDiaspora for more listings. There is spot there where you can find listings of other diaspora-researchers. Here is an article from 1995: Amit S. Rai: India on-line.Electronic bulletin boards... Diaspora-journal of transnational studies 1995, v4, n1. ISSN-1 044 2057. Published by Zorian Inst, Toronto, phone +1-416-1555/416-512-8600. They have a nice Indian secretary, Ms. Fernandez. Here are som sites of interest: www.rss.org www.bjp.org www.vhp.org www.hindutva.org www.hvk.org www.aryasamaj.com www.hindunet.org (very useful - LARGE collection of resources) www.hindunet.org/hsc www.hinduismToday.kauai.hi.us (excellent. Very helpful staff) http://www.umich.edu/~hindu/temple/temple.html (cool!) Hardly any webmasters or other contact perosns listed on web sites bother to answer to queries, except for this person who is a member of the steering committee at HSC in Michigan; Mihir Meghani (say hello from me). She has told me that she would try and be helpful in any way possible if I needed information. Hope these suggestions have been helpful. Hinduism on net is really an extremely interesting subject! all the best, RAM GUPTA > ************ > > >I have had an enquiry directed to me about whether there is anyone >currently doing >research on Hinduism and the Internet. This is specifically in >connection with an >international conference on media, religion and culture to be held in >Edinburgh next >July (20th-23rd) but also for more general information. Does anyone have any >information that I could pass on? > >John Brockington > >Professor J. L. Brockington >Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies >University of Edinburgh >7-8 Buccleuch Place >Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. > >tel: +131 650 4174 >fax: +131 650 6804 > > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 25 13:45:04 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 05:45:04 -0800 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227041980.23782.6019005592094129354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is this a common theme that temples of a particular Deity represent the >abode of the particular Deity, or different parts of the cosmology Yes. Kailasanatha temple Of Kanchipuram built in 8th century models 'Siva's abode. For a detailed study of a Siva's temple built as Kailasa and its Pasupata cult, see: Charles D. Collins, The iconography and ritual of "Siva at Elephanta. SUNY 1988; Satguru 1991. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 25 14:18:01 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 06:18:01 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041982.23782.16674070412185095526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Vassilkov wrote: <<< another element of "royal" mythology: the story of the king's marriage to the Sun-maiden, Scythian Tabiti, Sanskrit TapatI, both names meaning "The One who heats" - G.Dumezil proved the genetic identity of Indian and Scythian/Ossetic goddesses in his "Romans de Scythie et d'alentour. Paris, 1978, pp.125-145). By the way the image of TapatI underwent a remarkable transformation on Indian soil: she starts as the Sun-maiden, heavenly spouse of a human king, but even in Mbh I.163-164 her heat is already dangerous and should be controlled; and later, due to the climatic conditions of India, where the sun's heat is rather a curse than a blessing, this Sun-maiden eventually turns into a river-goddess (in the PurANas)! >>> Reminds me of the Dravidian notion of 'aNangu' - controlling female sacred power; This occurs in earliest Tamil sangam poetry at many instances. V. S. Rajam, Ananku: a notion semantically reduced to signify female sacred power, JAOS, v. 106, n.2, 1986, p. 257-272. For other views, a) G. L. Hart, The poems of ancient Tamil, b) Susan Wadley, The powers of Tamil women, In Tamil stalapuraanams, how this aspect is occuring is in D. Shulman, Tamil temple myths, 1980. May be a similar process is at work in the case of TapatI on Indian soil. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 25 13:34:47 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 08:34:47 -0500 Subject: Sarasvati In-Reply-To: <19981024.073943.5479.0.langstonrob@juno.com> Message-ID: <161227041979.23782.15779419771343632481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the early history of Sarasvati, especially as river goddess (and her representation as 'heavenly Ganga', the Milky Way), you may find a host of data and diagrams in: "Sur le chemin du ciel", Bulletin des etudes indiennes 2 (Paris), 1984, 213-279. M.W. On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, robert b langston wrote: > Could anyone help me regarding the history of the goddess Sarasvati ? I > am especially interested in finding an account for the development from > river goddess to goddess of arts and learning. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From mm383 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Oct 25 14:49:38 1998 From: mm383 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Mary McGee) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 09:49:38 -0500 Subject: SV: Hinduism/Net In-Reply-To: <01BE0033.C5740640@ti01a26-0005.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227041986.23782.16794119288483648316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please note, I have already sent to Dr. Brockington , by private email, information about the senior thesis on Hinduism and the Internet written a year and a half ago by a Barnard senior, Michelle Caswell. (Barnard is the women's college associated with Columbia University). Mary McGee Columbia University On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Hello Luis, > > you are probably right. As you may have noticed, the message below is something I received from an acquaintance here in Norway. The way to find out if it is columbia rather than colombia, is to send two identical messages to colombia.edu and columbia.edu. One of them will get through! > > Lars Martin > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > ---------- > Fra: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann[SMTP:reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU] > Svar til: Indology > Sendt: 24. oktober 1998 23:47 > Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Emne: Re: Hinduism/Net > > At 12:10 AM 10/25/98 +-100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >Re query from Mr. Brockington, > > > >I found recently the name of a girl at Colombia working on Hinduism and the > >Net, Michelle Caswell: > >Accordiong to her presentation she is doing a senior thesis on the ways the > >diasporic commuinity uses the web to rethink identities. Case studies. > _____ > > Lars Martin, > > Shouldn't this be Columbia, in New York, instead of Colombia, in South > America? (the email address would probably not work). > > Best regards, > > Luis > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > University of California, Berkeley > > > From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 25 16:29:52 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 11:29:52 -0500 Subject: Hinduism/Net In-Reply-To: <199810242247.PAA10159@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227041987.23782.10297401563043179970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michelle is now at Harvard and has, indeed, been doing work on the diaspora. Does any one need to get in touch with her? Edwin On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > At 12:10 AM 10/25/98 +-100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >Re query from Mr. Brockington, > > > >I found recently the name of a girl at Colombia working on Hinduism and the > >Net, Michelle Caswell: > >Accordiong to her presentation she is doing a senior thesis on the ways the > >diasporic commuinity uses the web to rethink identities. Case studies. > _____ > > Lars Martin, > > Shouldn't this be Columbia, in New York, instead of Colombia, in South > America? (the email address would probably not work). > > Best regards, > > Luis > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > University of California, Berkeley > From abhanja at CAL.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 25 09:15:59 1998 From: abhanja at CAL.VSNL.NET.IN (Arup A. Bhanja) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 14:45:59 +0530 Subject: C-DAC's new multilingual editor Message-ID: <161227042009.23782.13369041585814006761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Happy Diwali to everybody on this list!!! Hi Narayana, you wrote: >C-DAC has released a new multilingual editor whose freeware version is >called iLeap Lite. For one thing the key board layout for any language >can be kept right in front of your eyes on the monitor screen and charecters >can be typed either on the keyboard or by klicking the letters on the keyboard >layout on the screen with the mouse. The english/indic language toggle is >now ScrollLock instead of CapsLock in the previou version. e-mails >can be sent through Leap. > >regards, > >sarma. > can this freeware be downloaded? Do you know the website? regards, Arup From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 25 23:45:28 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 15:45:28 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227041993.23782.13970857025238074335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > This is really a problem! And the only solution I can suggest >(highly hypotetical of course) is that the branching (which had to >take place earlier than 2000 BC, probably in the end of the IV or in > the IIIrd mill.) really, ... >?From R. Drews, The coming of the Greeks: The Indo-European conquests in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton UP, 1988: p. 36 "The view that Proto-Indo-European (PIE) community broke up no later than ca. 2500 B.C. depends in part some venerable assumptions about the rate and mechanics of linguistic change. Observing that ca. 1000 B.C. Sanskrit and Greek (as attested in the Vedas and in the Homeric epics) had diverged quite far from each othe, nineteenth-century scholars assumed that the dispersal of the IE race must have occured a very long time before 1000 B.C. It was supposed that each Greek dialect represented one temporal stage in the evolution of the Greek language; since several centuries must have been required for each stage, the earliest Greek dialect (Arcadian, Aeolic, 'Achaean', and Ionic were all possibilities) could hardly have come into existence any later than ca. 2000 B.C. The divergence of this original Greek from an original Sanskrit was accordingly placed well back in the third millennium. Today many linguists are quite aware that linguistic change has not always proceeded at a glacial place. In preliterate societies, language may change rather rapidly: literature has a conservative influence upon both vocabulary and grammar, and a people without literature might be relatively uninhibited in its linguistic innovation [22]. Arabic, for example, has changed less in thirteen hundred years than some nonliterary languages have changed in the last two centuries. It is quite certain that the rate of linguistic change for Greek was far more rapid before Homer's time than after. The same may have been true for Sanskrit before and after the Vedas were composed. A specific linguistic argument takes us much further. [...] it also suggests that the splintering of the PIE community may have been an event of the second millennium rather than the third (to say nothing of the fourth and fifth millennium dates posited in Gimbutas's thesis) ..." --------------------------------------------------------------- As a conclusion, Prof. Drews writes: (p. 225) "The "'coming of the Greeks', like the other IE movements for which we have some documentation, occured no earlier than ca. 1600 B.C. And it was essentially a takeover of a relatively large alien population by a relatively small group of PIE speakers, whose advantage lay in their chariotry". This book plus the other book by Drews (The end of the bronze age: changes in warfare and the catastrophe ca. 1200 B.C.) are highly relevant for anyone interested in Aryan migrations. They talk about horses, bits, chariots, Aryans, IE, PIE & so on. For example, given the absence of horse in myth and ritual in IVC, it will be a problem to reconcile the assertion that horse-centered Aryans' were dominantly present in IVC. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Oct 25 16:03:01 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 16:03:01 +0000 Subject: SV: Hinduism/Net Message-ID: <161227041984.23782.11589166562323753578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Luis, you are probably right. As you may have noticed, the message below is something I received from an acquaintance here in Norway. The way to find out if it is columbia rather than colombia, is to send two identical messages to colombia.edu and columbia.edu. One of them will get through! Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no ---------- Fra: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann[SMTP:reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU] Svar til: Indology Sendt: 24. oktober 1998 23:47 Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Emne: Re: Hinduism/Net At 12:10 AM 10/25/98 +-100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Re query from Mr. Brockington, > >I found recently the name of a girl at Colombia working on Hinduism and the >Net, Michelle Caswell: >Accordiong to her presentation she is doing a senior thesis on the ways the >diasporic commuinity uses the web to rethink identities. Case studies. _____ Lars Martin, Shouldn't this be Columbia, in New York, instead of Colombia, in South America? (the email address would probably not work). Best regards, Luis Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Oct 26 05:33:22 1998 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 21:33:22 -0800 Subject: H-ASIA: Sumitra Mangesh Katre (1906-1998) Message-ID: <161227042003.23782.12436619437800416080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H-ASIA October 25, 1998 Professor Sumitra Mangesh Katre (1906-1998) *************************************************************************** From: Frank F. Conlon News has just been received that Professor Sumitra Mangesh Katre, one of this century's notable scholars of Indology, who served for many years on the faculty of Deccan College before retiring and shifting to America, died on the afternoon of Wednesday, October 21 in hospital at Los Gatos, California. I first met Dr. Katre at the Deccan College in January of 1966 and consulted with him during my subsequent research. I believe that our last meeting in Pune was in the winter of 1971. However we did meet this past July in Hayward, California at the Second North American Konkani conference. Dr. Katre was affiliated with several universities and colleges including, in this country, the University of Texas. Until ill health intruded upon his life, he remained intellectually active and maintained an interest in scholarship. Many students around the world who had the privilege of studying with Dr. Katre will honor his memory. We hope that a more detailed obituary notice may be posted in the near future. Frank F. Conlon University of Washington ========================================================================== From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Oct 25 21:42:44 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 98 21:42:44 +0000 Subject: Biological anthropology Message-ID: <161227041990.23782.8514660571307351313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, Having just read Kenneth A. R. Kennedy's contribution to Erodosy's book (The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia) "Have Aryans been identified in the prehistoric skeletal record from South Asia?....", I have a question to the list: Kennedy maintains that there are no physical traces of a distinct Aryan "race" (if you will pardon the expression), in other words that physical anthropologists find no skeletal remains that can be identified as different from the old population of North India (and which could consequently be identified with Aryan invaders or migrants) in the second millenium BCE. My question is this: Would (or to what extent would) such data be dependent upon burial method? In other words: would e.g. the burning of dead bodies have the effect of obliterating the archaeological traces of possible intruders? And what does the ancient literature say about burial methods? (I remember some Vedic talk about a "house of clay", but not have the opportunity to check it out). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From mcv at WXS.NL Mon Oct 26 00:05:14 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 00:05:14 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <19981025234529.24289.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227041995.23782.8260323721945759765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >From R. Drews, The coming of the Greeks: The Indo-European conquests >in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton UP, 1988: >p. 36 > Today many linguists are quite aware that linguistic change has not >always proceeded at a glacial place. In preliterate societies, language >may change rather rapidly: Or extremely slowly. What is clear is that language change proceeds at highly unpredictable rates. >literature has a conservative influence >upon both vocabulary and grammar, and a people without literature >might be relatively uninhibited in its linguistic innovation [22]. >Arabic, for example, has changed less in thirteen hundred years >than some nonliterary languages have changed in the last two centuries. This ignores spoken Arabic, which has changed very considerably in that time. >A specific linguistic argument takes us much further. [...] >it also suggests that the splintering of the PIE community >may have been an event of the second millennium rather than the >third (to say nothing of the fourth and fifth millennium dates posited >in Gimbutas's thesis) ..." I fail to see any mention here of the oldest recorded IE language, Hittite, or of Mycenaean Greek, for that matter, which being both second millennium languages themselves, and showing differences between them which amount to several millennia of separation even by the fastest observed rates of change, completely exclude a second millennium date for the breakup of PIE. Especially the gap that separates Hittite (and to a lesser extent, Tocharian) from the rest of IE suggests a date which might even go beyond Gimbutas' proposals. I favour a sixth millennium date. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Oct 26 02:07:16 1998 From: HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 02:07:16 +0000 Subject: Saraswati - River & Goddess - More Info sources Message-ID: <161227041997.23782.14824149767965557012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof Witzel, The following info (from the eMail forwarded) will certainly help you, in addition to what you have already got. Sincerely, -Harihareswara ------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:49:08 PDT From: "Dr.S.Kalyanaraman" Subject: Sarasvati River: Himalayan Glaciology and Projects Hi, The following URL updates provide details on: 1) Glaciological and Geological Sources of Vedic Sarasvati River in the Himalayas http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/glaciology/glaciology1.htm (Recent Geosciences monograph by Dr. VMK Puri and BC Verma, Geological Survey of India) 2)Slides/Poster Presentations: Get Involved in ongoing Sarasvati River Heritage and Development Projects: The URLs are: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/poster/poster1.pdf http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/poster/poster1.ppt http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/rigveda/Sans12.TTF (required to read = Rigvedic r.ca_s in Devana_gari, included on some slides/poster pages)= Please feel free to download these slides/poster presentations to any interested groups of sis.t.a_s and professionals. I would deeply appreciate receiving comments and suggestions. Thanking you and with the best regards, -Kalyanaraman ============================================ From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Mon Oct 26 11:11:44 1998 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 05:11:44 -0600 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227042016.23782.2991238383015809037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not wishing to be cantankerous, but still, a drop of cold-water-factuality never hurts long: The "Kailasanath" in Kanchi is never called that in its own, extensive inscriptions--it was actually, and obsessively, named with the titles/birudas of its royal patron, Rajasimha Narasimhavarman II (c. 690-728). And [my old friend] Charles Collins has never set foot on Elephanta island. In otherwords, one needs special caution when it comes to armchair philosophizing. >>Is this a common theme that temples of a particular Deity represent the >>abode of the particular Deity, or different parts of the cosmology > >Yes. Kailasanatha temple Of Kanchipuram built in 8th century models >'Siva's abode. > >For a detailed study of a Siva's temple built as Kailasa >and its Pasupata cult, see: >Charles D. Collins, The iconography and ritual of "Siva >at Elephanta. SUNY 1988; Satguru 1991. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 26 13:29:21 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 05:29:21 -0800 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227042019.23782.6362475175709099882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. M. Rabe wrote: >Not wishing to be cantankerous, but still, a drop of >cold-water-factuality >never hurts long: [...] >And [my old friend] Charles Collins has never set foot on Elephanta >island. >In otherwords, one needs special caution when it comes to armchair >philosophizing. How come then Collins wrote the book??!! Its ISBN number is 8170302595 and its OCLC number is 27272130. Indira Peterson once told me about Collins arguing for a Kailasa model of the temple. So far, I haven't gotten to read it. In the near future I will do that. Regards, N. Ganesan > >For a detailed study of a Siva's temple built as Kailasa >and its Pasupata cult, see: >Charles D. Collins, The iconography and ritual of "Siva >at Elephanta. SUNY 1988; Satguru 1991. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From caha at FSS.MUNI.CZ Mon Oct 26 05:16:12 1998 From: caha at FSS.MUNI.CZ (Caha Libor) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 06:16:12 +0100 Subject: freeware devanagari TTF In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981026102409.00861660@ms19.hinet.net> Message-ID: <161227042001.23782.350484708917212761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On URL http://www.aczone.com/ilkeyb/ or on http://www.paranoia.com/~avinash/ is demoversion of the Indian Language Keyboard Program with ttf font mantra__.ttf. (I think that better for devanagari is TeX and ITRANS). caha at fss.muni.cz > > Dear Shishtas, > I wonder if anyone of you know of any freeware devanagari True Type fonts. > We want to be able to offer also devanagari, not only transcription, on our > pages - but in such case this font must be downloadable for everybody, thus > it must be free. > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Regards, > Miroslav Rozehnal > Center For Buddhist Studies > national Taiwan University > Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 26 14:25:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 06:25:52 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042022.23782.12380774013308068047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: Re: SV: method of dating RV, III <<<<< I fail to see any mention here of the oldest recorded IE language, Hittite, or of Mycenaean Greek, for that matter, which being both second millennium languages themselves, and showing differences between them which amount to several millennia of separation even by the fastest observed rates of change, completely exclude a second millennium date for the breakup of PIE. Especially the gap that separates Hittite (and to a lesser extent, Tocharian) from the rest of IE suggests a date which might even go beyond Gimbutas' proposals. I favour a sixth millennium date. >>>>>> In about 30 pages, Drews discusses the Hittites, their language. He talks about Mycenaean Greek too in a few places. >?From R. Drews, The coming of the Greeks: The Indo-European conquests in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton UP, 1988: p. 200: "A second conclusion on which our alternative picture of 'the IE invasions' is based has to do with the so-called Hittites. There was once a consensus among historians that a Hittite nation had invaded central Anatolia by the beginning of the second millennium. This Hittite nation, historians supposed, was the first in a series of IE nations to have left its distant homeland and to have arrived in the more-or-less civilized world. Indo-Europeanists, however, have long known that the relationship of Hittite (or Proto-Anatolian) to the other IE languages is unclear: although possibly a sibling to Greek, Sanskrit, Latin and the other daughter languages of PIE, it is increasingly more likely that Proto-Anatolian was an 'aunt' rather than a siser of the IE languages. In a clear light not only the Hittite invasion but even the Hittite nation disappears: its existence depended not upon any evidence, literary or archaeological, but upon a cluster of presuppositions (the most importatnt being that a Greek nation had come to the other side of the Aegean by 1900 B.C.)." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Oct 26 15:02:39 1998 From: mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Tandy) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 07:02:39 -0800 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology In-Reply-To: <19981025001609.21688.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042024.23782.17171596692616429802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >Is this a common theme that temples of a particular Deity represent the > >abode of the particular Deity, or different parts of the cosmology > > Yes. The Srirangam Ranganatha temple is said to represent Vishnu's abode > in Vaikuntha, and the Puri Jagannatha temple is Krishna's palace. Devi > temples are also built in the form of the SrIyantra, sometimes also > called SrIpura. > on Tamil Nadu temples. However, I can't help wonder if a larger > perspective is lost, by not studying temples from other parts of south > and north India. The Shrinathji temple in north India is also seen as the mansion (haveli) of Nanda, Krishna's foster father in Braj. This may or not be considered cosmology, but almost everything in and around that temple has spiritual significance assigned to it. Even the nearby river Banas is regarded as the YamunA, the temple cows as those of Nanda, etc. MT From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 26 17:59:32 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 09:59:32 -0800 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227042031.23782.4792966718355051018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. M. Rabe writes: > The "Kailasanath" in Kanchi is never called that in its own, extensive > inscriptions--it was actually, and obsessively, named with the > titles/birudas of its royal patron, Rajasimha Narasimhavarman II (c. > 690-728) . Even though Rajasimha called it only as Rajasimhesvaram putting his stamp on his creation, the temple was called Kailasanatha temple from early on and not only in modern times. The PeriyapuraaNam hagiography of Puusalaar Naayanaar. This poor devotee builds a temple inside his heart. Siva descends from Kailasa to adorn Puusalaar's temple rather than the mighty king's creation. This King is Rajasimha, acc. to many scholars. The Rashtrakuuta monument, Kailasanatha at Ellora is inspired by Kailasanatha at Kanchi, acc. to C. Sivaramamuti. >?From C. Sivarammurti, Royal conquests and cultural migrations in South India and the Deccan, Indian museum, Calcutta, 1964 p.9 " ... This military expedition resulted in the marriage of Nandivarman (Pallava) with the Rashtrakuta princess Reva whose son Dantivarman is named after his maternal grandfather. The matrimonial alliance however did not avert another invasion by the Rashtrakutas under Govinda III. The inscription of Dantidurga in the Dasavatara cave in Ellora shows that Dantidurga was excavating cave temples here at Ellora and a little north of this is excavated the great monolithic temple of Kailasa which is one of the great wonders of architecture in the world conceived and executed by Krishna I the successor to Dantidurga. It is here to be noted that the Kailasa temple at Ellora closely follows the Lokesvara Vitrupakasha temple at Pattadakal in plan and details though one is excavated and monolithic and the other a structural one. Even the details of sculptured panels are repeated. The verse of the Bagumra plates which shows the manner in which Dantidurga appraoched Kanchi, his attitude towards Nandivarman on whom he bestowed his daughter together with the expression in the Talegaon plates 'kaaJchiigunaalaMkRita vizvambharaa nijavaniteva saa tena bhuktaa' describing how Krishna I enjoyed the earth damsel adorned by the beautiful excellences of Kanchi (strings of girdle) as if she were his own lady, makes it clear that the Rashtrakutas like the Chalukyas were deeply impressed by the superior art and architecture of the Pallavas as they saw at Kanchi specially in the Kailasanatha temple (Rajasimhesvara temple) and as this had already inspired the Virupaksha and Trailokysvara temples at Pattadakal of the time of Vikramaditya II, the same inspired the great Ellora temple ..." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mirek at MS19.HINET.NET Mon Oct 26 02:24:09 1998 From: mirek at MS19.HINET.NET (Miroslav Rozehnal) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 10:24:09 +0800 Subject: freeware devanagari TTF Message-ID: <161227041999.23782.7528690218361894243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shishtas, I wonder if anyone of you know of any freeware devanagari True Type fonts. We want to be able to offer also devanagari, not only transcription, on our pages - but in such case this font must be downloadable for everybody, thus it must be free. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Miroslav Rozehnal Center For Buddhist Studies national Taiwan University Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Mon Oct 26 09:39:41 1998 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 10:39:41 +0100 Subject: Verse that influenced M. GANDHI Message-ID: <161227042014.23782.9848308474599041359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Netters, I posted this message to the List during vacation time, which may be the reason why it elicited absolutely no response. Therefore I take the liberty of asking again: Could any knowledgeable person help me with identifying the source of the following quotation, a verse that is said to have influenced young Gandhi's views? "But the truly noble know all men are one And return with gladness good for evil done." Gratefully Yours, J.F. Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 phone 004202 6605 3729 e-mail private: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 - Troja phone 004202 855 74 53 From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Mon Oct 26 09:47:34 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 10:47:34 +0100 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042011.23782.8101196025114498864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > This is really a problem! And the only solution I can suggest (highly > hypotetical of course) is that the branching (which had to take place earlier > than 2000 BC, probably in the end of the IV or in the IIIrd mill.) really, as > you say, "did not obliterate mutual intelligibility", and that is the reason > why Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranians (Andronovo people), when after > centuries of separate migrations (PIA moving probably southwards across > the Caucasus mountains and then eastward through the Iranian plateau - > to Bactria, and Iranians moving south, from Southern Ural and Kazakhstan - to Bactria again) > they reunited on the territory of BMAC, they could still understand each other > and more than that: they evidently participated in some common cultural and > religious process. Here, at their "second Aryan homelend" they probably went > together through a period of some religious reform. In particular, I think it > is improbable that the images of gods designed as personifications of > abstract notions and moral categories: Mit(h)ra as "Social harmony" or > "Friendship", A(i)ryaman as "Hospitality", Ahura Mazda / Asura VaruNa medhira > as "Lord Wisdom" (socially: all-seeng sacred ruler, priest-king with miriads of > spies) and so on - could appear in the primitive Neolithic Indo-Iranian society of the "first Aryan homeland"; > this is rather a result of a religious reform which took place in a priestly > mileau, in proto-urban society with temples and complex priestly hierarchy, > under strong influence of local ancient civilization(s). Does not it all > looks like BMAC? > This is, of course, just a hypothesis. Any objections or comments are > welcome. This situation is no longer a problem if instead of two separate migrations of Indo-Aryans and Iranians one only assumes one -very early - migration of Indo-Iranians. The subsequent period may then have been one of both divergence of Iranian(s) and Indo-Aryan(s) due to geographical, economical and political factors, and of convergence due to uninterrupted contacts of neighbouring groups (Avesta - Rgveda) and to internal migration (Iranians into Indian territory but certainly also Indians into Iranian territory). The theory of a double migration is perhaps the strongest impediment to a proper understanding of both Iranian and Indian history. Erik Seldeslachts University of Ghent Ghent, Belgium From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Oct 26 18:51:42 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 10:51:42 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042033.23782.3296255163582709707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > This situation is no longer a problem if instead of two separate migrations of> Indo-Aryans and Iranians one only assumes one -very early - migration of Indo-Iranians.> The subsequent period may then have been one of both divergence of Iranian(s) and> Indo-Aryan(s) due to geographical, economical and political factors, and of convergence> due to uninterrupted contacts of neighbouring groups (Avesta - Rgveda) and to internal> migration (Iranians into Indian territory but certainly also Indians into Iranian> territory).> The theory of a double migration is perhaps the strongest impediment to a proper> understanding of both Iranian and Indian history.> Erik Seldeslachts> University of Ghent> Ghent, Belgium One very early migration... the hypothesis of Erik Seldeslachts, is a fascinating thread and warrants further exploration. The problem gets tougher because of the next question: How very early? Are there linguistic analytical tools which can date and separate innovation and continuity in languages? There is certainly migration of Sanskrit-speakers (not Proto-Indo-Iranian) ca. 15th century BC to Mitanni and Bogazkoi (cf. Kikkuli's horse training manual with terms such as eka-vartana, dvi-vartana, pan~ca-vartana and names of Mitanni kings using Sanskrit compounds, cf. Thieme). There was also a Meluhha interpreter in Sumer (perhaps, a settlement of Meluhhans, cf. Parpola). This is archaeological/epigraphic evidence. It is also possible that the contacts in the second millennium between the Sarasvati Sindhu valleys and Tigris-Euphrates occurred via the Gulf maritime route, moving upstream on Euphrates towards Anatolia as seen from the evolution of glyphs on cylinder seals from Sumer to Mitanni and the vivid parallels with the patterns of ligatured animals, battle scenes, unicorn... Is there similar archaeological/epigraphical evidence for an Indo-Iranian hypothesis? Take the diffusion of svastika_ icon for example; the archaeological sites in NW India have yielded over 50 seals with this icon; and some have been found in BMAC sites. The icon has been read, in the context of bronze-age weapons: as satti, knife, dagger (Pali); satthia, auspicious mark (Pkt.)(http://sarasvati.simplenet.com for the entire corpus of inscriptions and decipherment method). Can Avestan be dated earlier than ca. 600 BC? or ca. 1000 BC as Burrow attempts to surmise? Best regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 26 06:54:54 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 12:24:54 +0530 Subject: Anandashram Newsletter, 1 and 2 Message-ID: <161227042005.23782.12978350004048847095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" To Members of the Indology List Oct 26, 1998 Dear Members, I have pleasure to inform you that the century-old institute Anandashram which has rendered yeoman's service to the world of Sanskrit and Indology is slowly re-establishing contacts with its world of activity befitting the computer age. It is publishing a Newsletter, once in a year, containing some research articles, besides news about its activities and notable changes. If you are interested in obtaining a copy of the Newsletter (ANL), you may contact on the following addresses: 1 Manager, Anandashram, 22 Budhwar Peth, Pune 411 002, India. 2 e-mail: You may have some idea about the articles published in ANL from the following titles: (i) Indology at Cross-roads by K. S Arjunwadkar (ANL # 1) (ii) Three Mss on Spoken Sanskrit by Dr. Bhagyalata Pataskar (ANL # 1) (iii) Suukti-ratnaakara of Shesha Narayana (An unpublished commentary on the Mahaabhashya of Patanjali) (ANL # 1) (iv) Sanskrit Introduction to the Suukti-ratnaakara of Shesha Narayana by Pt. V. B. Bhagavat (ANL # 2) (v) Puranic Studies: Past, Present and Future by Dr. P. G. Lalye (ANL # 2) (vi) Chatushloka-vyaakhyaa (Introduction to an unpublished Sanskrit Ms) (ANL # 2) The Forthcoming issue (ANL # 3), to be published in a couple of months, would contain, among other things, the following articles: (i) MaxMullerism by V. A. Khaire (ii) Some Challenging Words (Semantic and text-critical study) by K. S. Arjunwadkar (Notes on the first 10 words will appear in the forthcoming issue of Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute) With best wishes K. S. Arjunwadkar (Editor and Trustee) From omkar at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 26 07:40:58 1998 From: omkar at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 13:10:58 +0530 Subject: freeware devanagari TTF Message-ID: <161227042007.23782.9036043655108908437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar, There is a nice free devanagari font available from http://www.geocities.com/~omkara/Sanskrit/Devanagari.zip . The layout is very similar to the English one. I can send it to you. There is also a freeware available at http://www.geocities.com/~omkara/Itrans.htm for converting a large store of sanskrit documents available in on the Internet into Devanagari/Roman transcription. For easy typing with the Devanagari font given above you can download a free Word template from http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk/sanskrit/index.htm Greetings, Vishvarupananda -----Original Message----- From: Miroslav Rozehnal To: Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 8:18 AM Subject: freeware devanagari TTF >Dear Shishtas, >I wonder if anyone of you know of any freeware devanagari True Type fonts. >We want to be able to offer also devanagari, not only transcription, on our >pages - but in such case this font must be downloadable for everybody, thus >it must be free. >Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >Regards, >Miroslav Rozehnal >Center For Buddhist Studies >national Taiwan University >Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. >http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw > From nick.allen at ANTHROPOLOGY.OX.AC.UK Mon Oct 26 15:07:06 1998 From: nick.allen at ANTHROPOLOGY.OX.AC.UK (NJ Allen) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 15:07:06 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042029.23782.7392331024913985043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the coming of the Indo-European speakers to India a recent synthesis (for readers of French), covering the archaeology and comparativist literature (linguistic and cultural), is Bernard Sergent's Gen?se de l'Inde, Paris Payot, 1997. I would be interested to see any reactions to it. Nick Allen From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 26 13:59:48 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 19:29:48 +0530 Subject: Anandashram Newsletter: Correction in e-mail address Message-ID: <161227042020.23782.13771931708052481640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> October 26, 1998 Dear List Members, I am sorry I committed a mistake in giving my e-mail address in the body of my letter on Anandashram Newsletter posted today. It should be My address given as the hedder 'From' is correct. Sincerely K. S. Arjunwadkar From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 26 15:58:53 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 20:58:53 +0500 Subject: C-DAC's new multilingual editor In-Reply-To: <012001be0000$87b8fc80$844f36ca@cal.vsnl.net.in.202.54.9.1> Message-ID: <161227042027.23782.10914457901168293300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I installed the software from CDROM in the October PCQuest magazine (India). So if you purchase the magazine you can easily install it. Otherwise you can try http://www.cdac.org.in/download/gist/disclaim.htm This is the URL of the site from which I downloaded the previous version of Leap. You may have to start with home page. regards, sarma. At 02:45 PM 10/25/98 +0530, you wrote: >Happy Diwali to everybody on this list!!! >Hi Narayana, >you wrote: > >>C-DAC has released a new multilingual editor whose freeware version is >>called iLeap Lite. For one thing the key board layout for any language >>can be kept right in front of your eyes on the monitor screen and >charecters >>can be typed either on the keyboard or by klicking the letters on the >keyboard >>layout on the screen with the mouse. The english/indic language toggle is >>now ScrollLock instead of CapsLock in the previou version. e-mails >>can be sent through Leap. >> >>regards, >> >>sarma. >> >can this freeware be downloaded? Do you know the website? >regards, >Arup > > From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Oct 27 04:00:36 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 04:00:36 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <19981026142553.9601.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042037.23782.13902054217113112921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >From R. Drews, The coming of the Greeks: The Indo-European conquests >in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton UP, 1988: >p. 200: > >"A second conclusion on which our alternative picture of 'the IE >invasions' is based has to do with the so-called Hittites. There was >once a consensus among historians that a Hittite nation had invaded >central Anatolia by the beginning of the second millennium. This >Hittite nation, historians supposed, was the first in a series of >IE nations to have left its distant homeland and to have arrived in the >more-or-less civilized world. Indo-Europeanists, however, have long >known that the relationship of Hittite (or Proto-Anatolian) to the other >IE languages is unclear: although possibly a sibling to Greek, Sanskrit, >Latin and the other daughter languages of PIE, it is increasingly >more likely that Proto-Anatolian was an 'aunt' rather than a siser >of the IE languages. So far so good. >In a clear light not only the Hittite invasion >but even the Hittite nation disappears: its existence depended not upon >any evidence, literary or archaeological, but upon a cluster of >presuppositions (the most importatnt being that a Greek nation had come >to the other side of the Aegean by 1900 B.C.)." This doesn't make any sense. Of course there is literary and archaeological evidence for the Hittite language and state. What is he talking about? ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Tue Oct 27 12:31:07 1998 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 07:31:07 -0500 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <19981026185142.9627.qmail@www0f.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227042040.23782.13241516754973577679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am no expert in Indus Valley Civilisations, but I seem to remember seeing things very much like svastikas in original and plaster cast models of seals from Mohenjo Daro in the Indian National Museum. ** And again in runic inscriptions where the lightning bolt motif of the god Thor is interlocked to make a svastika with pointed ends (which I think was the origin of Hitler's SS-swastika). Of course, svastikas are very common in my svade'sa of Arizona, among the Navajo they refer to the four directions and have no direct meaning of blessing. It is clearly a compelling sign and an attractive design form. Again, just armchair observation. W. Trimble >hypothesis? Take the diffusion of svastika_ icon for example; the >archaeological sites in NW India have yielded over 50 seals with this icon; >and some have been found in BMAC sites. The icon has been read, in the context >of bronze-age weapons: as satti, knife, dagger (Pali); satthia, auspicious >mark (Pkt.)(http://sarasvati.simplenet.com for the entire corpus of >inscriptions and decipherment method). > >Can Avestan be dated earlier than ca. 600 BC? or ca. 1000 BC as Burrow >attempts to surmise? > >Best regards, Kalyanaraman > >____________________________________________________________________ >More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 27 17:18:03 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 09:18:03 -0800 Subject: PIE breakup in ca. 1750 B.C. Message-ID: <161227042042.23782.17776928504580468037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The widely published Professor of Classics is saying that PIE breakup occured in ca. 1750 B.C. Is he is correct? Otherwise, are there any reviews where his theory is shown to be wrong? If PIE existed in 1750 B.C., then the date of Rigveda as ca. 1000 B.C. seems certainly possible. I would philosophize that a few centuries are necessary for the crystallization of the Rigveda with 'systemic' retroflexes, few Dravidian words, etc., Regards, N. Ganesan Robert Drews, The coming of the Greeks: Indo-European conquestd in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton University press, 1988 (available in both hard cover and paperback editions) page 197: " Some dubious assumptions about the PIE speakers are interlocked and of long standing. One of these assumptions is that when poised on the threshold of history, the PIE speakers were a numerous people, making up a fair portion of the world's population. For such a multitude, a spacious home must be imagined, and a second assumption is that the IE homeland was a vast territory, perhaps covering much of Eastern Europe or the Eurasian steppe. From this homeland, the Indo-Europeans are supposed to have set out, in prehistoric times, in a series of massive Volkerwanderungen; eventually, they came to rest in the lands in which during historical times the IE languages were spoken. The beginnings of these mass migrations are placed between ca. 4500 and ca. 2000 B.C., and the reasons for the migrations are seldom stated. An alternative picture is more likely. At the end of the third millennium, the PIE-speaking community was no larger than the Hurrian, the Sumerian, the Hattic, or the Proto-Anatolian and was only a fraction the size of the Semitic. The PIE-speaking community remained intact, playing no significant historical role, until the second quarter of the second millennium. In the late seventeenth or early sixteenth century, individuals and then whole communities of PIE speakers began leaving their native lands (probably in the lake district of eastern Anatolia). None of these movements of PIE speakers involved a population much larger than that of one Mesopotamian city of the first rank. Nor were the movements Wanderungen at all. The relocations - some of them apparently by sea- were well planned and organized, and their leaders knew where they were going and what they would do when they got there. The PIE speakers' object in leaving their native lands was to take control of societies that were vulnerable and that could profitably be exploited. Takeovers rather than Volkerwanderungen are what seem to have plagued the ancient world in second millennium B.C. The IE takeovers appear to have been analogous to the hyksos takeover of Egypt, and to the Kassite and Hurrian takeovers of various communities in the Fertile Crescent (the Kassites and Hurrians may have been neighbors of the PIE speakers before they set out on their adventures). For all of these intruders, chariotry was essential: it was their mastery of chariot warfare that made it possible for the intruders to conquer and then to dominate lands from Egypt and Greece to India. The takeovers were motivated, it need hardly be said, by the desire for power and wealth." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Jayant.Bapat at ARTS.MONASH.EDU.AU Tue Oct 27 03:43:35 1998 From: Jayant.Bapat at ARTS.MONASH.EDU.AU (Jayant Bapat) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 14:43:35 +1100 Subject: Anandashram Newsletter: Correction in e-mail address Message-ID: <161227042035.23782.7910772834134991490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Arjunwadkar I would be very grateful uif you could add my name to the list of people you send the newsletter to. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From pawe3u at USA.NET Tue Oct 27 19:39:32 1998 From: pawe3u at USA.NET (=?utf-8?Q?Pawe=C5=82_Ulbrych_=28Poland=29?=) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 19:39:32 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227042044.23782.905704213646345129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm looking for any news concerning BHAGVAN SINH'S "Apne-apne Raam". It's a novel published in ca. 1994. I heard that it's been very controversial in India. Especially I'm interested in anything about the concept of the state and society in this novel. I've got its photocopy in Hindi, but my Hindi's been lacking a lot and I don't have too much time. Thank you very much Pawel Ulbrych ------------------------- pawe3u at usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From pawe3u at USA.NET Tue Oct 27 20:09:42 1998 From: pawe3u at USA.NET (=?utf-8?Q?Pawe=C5=82_Ulbrych_=28Poland=29?=) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 20:09:42 +0000 Subject: "Apne-apne Raam" Message-ID: <161227042045.23782.505728952904884614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm looking for any news concerning BHAGVAN SINH'S "Apne-apne Raam". It's a novel published in ca. 1994. I heard that it's been very controversial in India. Especially I'm interested in anything about the concept of the state and society in this novel. I've got its photocopy in Hindi, but my Hindi's been lacking a lot and I don't have too much time. Thank you very much Pawel Ulbrych ------------------------- pawe3u at usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Oct 27 20:27:16 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 20:27:16 +0000 Subject: PIE breakup in ca. 1750 B.C. In-Reply-To: <19981027171804.4488.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042047.23782.14090478488789583841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >The widely published Professor of Classics is saying that >PIE breakup occured in ca. 1750 B.C. Is he is correct? Otherwise, >are there any reviews where his theory is shown to be wrong? I found one review on the Net, by Bill Darden, Dept. of Slavic, Univ. of Chicago, which isn't very favourable of either one of the recent proposals to put the IE homeland in Anatolia [Renfrew, Gamqrelidze & Ivanov, Drews]. See: . In general, theories about the IE homeland (or the homeland of any linguistic group) cannot be shown to be correct or incorrect. They must remain a matter of speculation. We can say whether this or that alternative is more or less likely, given the known present (or historically recorded) distribution and divergence of the languages, and given the proposed correlations with archaeological findings. But without a time machine we can never be sure. >Robert Drews, The coming of the Greeks: Indo-European conquestd >in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton University press, 1988 >(available in both hard cover and paperback editions) >page 197: > >" Some dubious assumptions about the PIE speakers are interlocked and >of long standing. One of these assumptions is that when poised on the >threshold of history, the PIE speakers were a numerous people, making >up a fair portion of the world's population. For such a multitude, >a spacious home must be imagined, and a second assumption is that >the IE homeland was a vast territory, perhaps covering much of >Eastern Europe or the Eurasian steppe. From this homeland, the >Indo-Europeans are supposed to have set out, in prehistoric times, in >a series of massive Volkerwanderungen; eventually, they came to rest >in the lands in which during historical times the IE languages were >spoken. The beginnings of these mass migrations are placed between ca. >4500 >and ca. 2000 B.C., and the reasons for the migrations are seldom >stated. > An alternative picture is more likely. At the end of the third >millennium, >the PIE-speaking community was no larger than the Hurrian, the Sumerian, >the Hattic, or the Proto-Anatolian and was only a fraction the size >of the Semitic. The PIE-speaking community remained intact, playing no >significant historical role, until the second quarter of the second >millennium. In the late seventeenth or early sixteenth century, >individuals >and then whole communities of PIE speakers began leaving their native >lands (probably in the lake district of eastern Anatolia). None of these >movements of PIE speakers involved a population much larger than that >of one Mesopotamian city of the first rank. Nor were the movements >Wanderungen at all. The relocations - some of them apparently by sea- >were well planned and organized, and their leaders knew where they were >going and what they would do when they got there. The PIE speakers' >object in leaving their native lands was to take control of societies >that were vulnerable and that could profitably be exploited. > > Takeovers rather than Volkerwanderungen are what seem to have plagued >the ancient world in second millennium B.C. The IE takeovers appear to >have been analogous to the hyksos takeover of Egypt, and to the Kassite >and Hurrian takeovers of various communities in the Fertile Crescent >(the Kassites and Hurrians may have been neighbors of the PIE >speakers before they set out on their adventures). For all of these >intruders, chariotry was essential: it was their mastery of chariot >warfare that made it possible for the intruders to conquer and then to >dominate lands from Egypt and Greece to India. The takeovers were >motivated, it need hardly be said, by the desire for power and wealth." If this is what Drews proposes, then it is the least likely scenario of the three I have seen for an Anatolian origin of IE. The view held by most (but not all) Indo-Europeanists, archaeologists and historians, which we can call the "standard" view on IE origins, is basically the one first proposed by Marija Gimbutas and subsequently refined and argumented in Mallory's "In Search of the Indo-Europeans". According to this theory, the origins of the IEans lie in the Eurasian steppe, where by 4500BC we find the Sredny Stog (in the western steppe [Ukraine] north of the Black Sea) and Khvalynsk (eastern steppe, north and east of Caspian) cultures, which are seen as ancestral to IE culture. At the economical level, these early steppe societies were more based on keeping livestock as well as hunting and fishing than exclusively on agriculture. The horse (native to the steppe lands) appears to have been first domesticated in the Sredny Stog cultural area, c. 4000 BC, which was to lead to the nomadic way of life that has predominated in the Eurasian steppe ever since (or at least until the expansion of the Russian Empire in modern times). The first step was the evolution of the Yamna (Pit-Grave or "Kurgan") culture c. 3500 BC out of the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog cultures. Now having domesticated the horse is not something necessarily exclusive to Indo-Europeans, so in order to make this theory work, it has to be established that the historical distribution of the IE languages finds its origins in the Yamna and Khvalynsk/Sredny Stog cultures of 4500-3500 BC. We have to find evidence from migrations out of this area into regions where IE languages are later found. Cases have been made for early expansions eastwards (proto-Tocharians?) and westwards into the Balkan peninsula. The history and origin of the Tocharians (which we find in Chinese Turkestan in the first centuries AD speaking an IE language not closely related at all to Iranian) is an enigma in itself. Mallory makes an, I think, convincing case for linking the Afanasievo culture (<3000 BC) of the Upper Yenisei river to the Proto-Tocharians, based on archaeological similarities between Afansievo and the more western steppe cultures Sredny Stog/Khvalynsk and its 5th mill. predecessors (Dnepr-Donets culture, Samara culture). The situation in the Balkans is also obscure. The "Old European" civilization (Karanovo, Starc^evo, Vinc^a) which had flourished there from the 7th millennium to c. 4200 BC was suddenly interrupted. In the so-called "Balkan dark ages" (c. 4200-3200 BC) most of the tells were abandoned (but in Romania and the Western Ukraine, the "Old European" Tripolye culture was apparently unaffected). Gimbutas and others have argued that the fall of Old Europe was due to IE "Kurgan" invasions from the steppe. As in the case of the IVC, others have argued that Vinc^a and related cultures collapsed of their own account [a further parallel between Vinc^a and the IVC are the mysterious signs found on Vinc^a artefacts, which might be the oldest writing in the world]. What seems clear, in any case, is that when the settlements were occupied again, 500-1000 years later, things had changed profoundly, and cultures like Ozero/Cernavoda (3200 BC) have more in common with the Kurgan cultures of the steppe than with the old Vinc^a. There is overall pretty good evidence for direct invasions from the Kurgan area into the Balkans (and from there to Greece [Early Helladic I] and Anatolia [Troy I]). Turning to the east again, the origin of Indo-Iranian can also be traced back to the Yamna/Kurgan cultures of the 4th/3rd. millennium. By 2000 BC, the area of modern Russian Turkestan is occcupied by the Kurgan-derived Andronovo culture, ancestral to the Iranians or the Indo-Iranians as a whole, depending on where one wants to put the split between the two. I would favour a slightly early date, making Andronovo exclusively Iranian, with the Dardic/Indo-Aryan speakers already in Kashmir, watching the IVC collapse. So far, I would say the "standard" theory makes a plausible case for deriving Tocharian, the IE languages of the Balkans (Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian/Albanian, Greek, Phrygian, ?Armenian), and Indo-Iranian from the 4th mill. Kurgan area (Eurasian steppe). Balto-Slavic, just north of the steppe area, is not so hard to fit in either, although evidence for migrations is weak or absent. However, when it comes to Northern, Central and Western Europe (Germanic, Celtic, Italic) and to the Anatolian languages (Hittite, Luwian/Lycian, Lydian), Mallory's case is much weaker. [And Drews' case is pathetically absent]. The problem with Anatolian is that it's simply too deviant, linguistically, to be a recent offshoot of PIE. We must allow Anatolian a lot of time to become so different from the rest, and if we want to derive Anatolian, like --say-- Greek, from the Kurgan invasions into the Balkans (4200-3200) there just isn't enough time. As to NWC-Europe, it is true that at approximately the right time (c. 3000 BC) an important cultural change took place, whereby the earlier seemingly egalitarian and largely vegetarian society of the Neolithic (LBK, TRB cultures, etc.) was replaced by a more hierarchic, meat-eating, milk-drinking and male-dominated society (Corded Ware around the Baltic c. 3000 BC, Bell Beaker in Central Europe, spreading to France, Britain, Spain and Italy c. 2500 BC). But there is no sign of migrations or invasions. And Drews' theory of IE "takeovers" falls flat on its face. There was nothing to take over here: no state, no towns, no riches, no large populations to enslave, just the vast expanse of the Northern European plain with every now and then a farmhouse or a small village. These scattered farmers had diffused into the area from the Balkans starting from c. 5500 BC. (by a process Renfrew calls "wave of advance", which is exactly the opposite of what Drews suggests: nobody was planning anything, and nobody was even aware thwy were moving, they were just establishing new farmhouses a couple of miles from their parents'. The net result was the spread of agriculture across the European continent). In my view, they, like the "Old European" folk of the Balkans [which were to become the Proto-Anatolians] spoke an IE language. At the same time as they spread into Central and Northern Europe, they probably also spread into the Eastern parts of Europe and the Ukrainian forest-steppe (Dnepr-Donets culture, c. 5300 BC), and some of them even further east, eventually all the way to Chinese Turkestan (this would explain why Tocharian looks like a "Western" IE language). The Eastern IE dialects (so-called "Indo-Greek") would then have evolved their characteristics later as a set of innovations within the Ukrainian area, possibly as a result of the Kurgan phenomenon. It was these Eastern ("Kurgan") IEans which, as outlined above, then spread west into the Balkans (possibly pushing the "Old Europeans" [Proto-Anatolians] back into Greece and Anatolia) and east into Iran and India. The Western IEans (Germanic(-Balto-Slavic) and Italo-Celtic), while they did adopt some of the cultural and social changes developed by the Kurgan people of the steppe, were never subjected to a full scale invasion, and their languages go back, in my view, to the original "Danubian" language of the earliest LBK/Linear Ware farmers. As a consequence of the social change in the "Bell Beaker" period, Indo-Euroepan languages did spread further into areas of SW Europe that had not previously been Indo-Europeanized (S. France, Britain?, Spain, Italy). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 28 03:42:30 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 22:42:30 -0500 Subject: HOS 53 (Srngaraprakasa) released Message-ID: <161227042049.23782.17216240346126774663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to announce the relase, last week, of another volume of the HARVARD ORIENTAL SERIES (edited by Michael Witzel since 1993) Volume 53 is the long-awaited first part (Prakasas 1-12) of the ZRGgAraprakAza, critically edited by the late V. Raghavan. The book, typeset in Nagari under Raghavan's supervision, had been accepted by the then editor for publication in HOS in the Seventies, long before Raghavan's passing away, -- it constitutes one of the several problems I inherited here. The book can be ordered directly from Harvard Univ. Press.; see: http://128.103.251.49/default.html or email to : cal at hup.harvard.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SRNGARAPRAKASA of Bhoja, Edited by Venkatarama Raghavan Part I DISTRIBUTED BY HARVARD UNIVERSITY PRESS CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS AND LONDON, ENGLAND Cambridge 1998, pp. ii, 916 ISBN 0-674-88340-6 Price $ 95 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For further information write to: Editor, Harvard Oriental Series, Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA 617-495 3295; email: witzel at fas.harvard.edu and cf.: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm sub: HOS. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From sconyerd at FRANKLIN.EDU Wed Oct 28 05:49:37 1998 From: sconyerd at FRANKLIN.EDU (sconyerd) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 00:49:37 -0500 Subject: Tagore's End of the Century Message-ID: <161227042051.23782.8166205317992808615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone give me the text of Tagore's poem written on the last day of the last century? As I recall, it begins "The bloodred sun ..." and ends several vivid and powerful verses later "Keep watch India...thy dawn has not yet..." I have seen it cited/entitled "The Sunset of the Century" but since he did not assign titles, I have been unable to track it down. Any help would be appreciated. I want to use it as the opening page for a "20th Century World Cultures" text. Please reply to sconyerd at franklin.edu. Many thanks...............DS From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 28 16:11:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 08:11:24 -0800 Subject: PIE breakup in ca. 1750 B.C. Message-ID: <161227042066.23782.4470327965513002370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to Mr. Vidal for explaining the "standard" IE model. What strikes me is the vast expanse in time proposed by say, Gimbutas and on the otherside, say Drews. Whether 5000 B.C. or 1750 B.C?? More so, when we consider the fact that the origins of IE is of central concern in the West for ages. I could not locate Bill Darden's review of Drews' theory. Tried to go to www.indoeuropean.org. Did not succeed yet. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ebashir at UMICH.EDU Wed Oct 28 13:39:54 1998 From: ebashir at UMICH.EDU (E. Bashir) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 08:39:54 -0500 Subject: e-mail address needed Message-ID: <161227042060.23782.12703498590399659139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have an e-mail or other contact address for Sean Jensen, formerly of SOAS? Thank you, E. Bashir, Visiting Lecturer Dept. of Asian Languages and Cultures 3070 Frieze Bldg. The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Office Phone: 734-764-0214 Dept. Phone: 734-764-8286 (messages only) Fax: 734-647-0157 From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Wed Oct 28 15:01:36 1998 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 10:01:36 -0500 Subject: adresses of Professor Claus Peter Zoller In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981028120047.00963930@mail.rz.uni-sb.de> Message-ID: <161227042062.23782.12756788452078391744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone help me with the email address of Professor Claus Peter Zoller of Heidelberg? Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Narahari Rao wrote: > Can anyone please send me the current addresses of Prof. Ruegg and Prof. > Lenn Goodman? > > Thanking you in advance, > Yours > Narahari Rao > From u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Oct 28 11:32:59 1998 From: u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 12:32:59 +0100 Subject: Jon Skarpeit Message-ID: <161227042054.23782.11708537332132584498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know the email address of Jon Skarpeit? His old address (jon.skarpeit at hint.no) doesn't seem to exist anymore. Thanks, Ulrike From sconyerd at FRANKLIN.EDU Wed Oct 28 17:43:24 1998 From: sconyerd at FRANKLIN.EDU (Dr. David Sconyers) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 12:43:24 -0500 Subject: Tagore Poem Message-ID: <161227042072.23782.13645511602465893824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone provide the text of a poem Tagore composed on the last day of the 19th Century? The first line begins"The bloodred sun sets..." I have seen it under the title "The Sunset of the Century" but suspect that was assigned by an editor. Any help would be appreciated. Please contact sconyerd at franklin.edu From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Oct 28 11:59:11 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 12:59:11 +0100 Subject: Jon Skarpeit In-Reply-To: <363700EB.27EFCB9C@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <161227042056.23782.11600353442985573821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anybody know the email address of Jon Skarpeit? His old address >(jon.skarpeit at hint.no) doesn't seem to exist anymore. > >Thanks, >Ulrike jon.skarpeid at hint.no skarpeid, not skarpeit. Best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE Wed Oct 28 12:00:47 1998 From: n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE (Narahari Rao) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 13:00:47 +0100 Subject: adresses of Prof. Ruegg and Prof. Lenn Goodman Message-ID: <161227042053.23782.12503765278782502285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone please send me the current addresses of Prof. Ruegg and Prof. Lenn Goodman? Thanking you in advance, Yours Narahari Rao From Kovacst at LIBRARY.ETHZ.CH Wed Oct 28 12:06:45 1998 From: Kovacst at LIBRARY.ETHZ.CH (Tibor Kovacs) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 13:06:45 +0100 Subject: Tantric siddhas - Mina Message-ID: <161227042058.23782.17324431756524620200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, is there anyone who could give me information about the relationship of the siddhas as mentioned at the beginnig of the Hatha-yoga-pradipika and the 84 mahasiddhas of the Vajrayana tradition? I am especially interested in Mina - is it true, that he could be related to Matsyendra and Minapa? Is there a serious book dealing with the subject? Which other lists / sanskrit manuscripts is he included? Thanks Tibor Kov?cs From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Wed Oct 28 15:40:13 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 15:40:13 +0000 Subject: adresses of Professor Claus Peter Zoller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042064.23782.7567159797588279154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > Could anyone help me with the email address of Professor Claus Peter > Zoller of Heidelberg? The address I have for him is ce0 at vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Oct 28 16:31:55 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 16:31:55 +0000 Subject: PIE breakup in ca. 1750 B.C. In-Reply-To: <19981028161124.4654.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042068.23782.261349479010974772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >My thanks to Mr. Vidal for explaining the "standard" IE model. >What strikes me is the vast expanse in time proposed by say, >Gimbutas and on the otherside, say Drews. Whether 5000 B.C. >or 1750 B.C?? More so, when we consider the fact that the >origins of IE is of central concern in the West for ages. Or at least it has been recognized as a puzzle for the last century and a half. Barring spectacular new developments in linguistics, genetics and/or archaeology, the question will remain open to speculation forever. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Oct 28 17:13:49 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 18:13:49 +0100 Subject: adresses of Professor Claus Peter Zoller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042070.23782.17827848410381201499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is another, almost the same: ce0 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de R. Schmidt >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > >> Could anyone help me with the email address of Professor Claus Peter >> Zoller of Heidelberg? > >The address I have for him is ce0 at vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de. > >John Smith > >-- >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Oct 29 02:11:48 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 98 21:11:48 -0500 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042074.23782.13569368169434055514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd just like to register my support for Miguel Carrasquer Vidal's critique of Drew's eccentric dating of the PIE breakup [as well as Drew's strange insistence on a well-planned and highly organized invasion of the known world by PIE speakers!]. I'd also like to thank MCV for his overview of the commonly accepted version among scholars, as seen for example in Mallory. As a way of steering this thread back to the Indological sphere, perhaps MCV could be persuaded to comment on the following: "Turning to the east again, the origin of Indo-Iranian can also be traced back to the Yamna/Kurgan cultures of the 4th/3rd. millennium. By 2000 BC, the area of modern Russian Turkestan is occcupied by the Kurgan-derived Andronovo culture, ancestral to the Iranians or the Indo-Iranians as a whole, depending on where one wants to put the split between the two. I would favour a slightly early date, making Andronovo exclusively Iranian, with the Dardic/Indo-Aryan speakers already in Kashmir, watching the IVC collapse...." I am interested in a more detailed and specific discussion of both the location and the time of the Indo-Iranian split. To return to Yaroslav Vassilkov's earlier post: YV's distinction between Vedic-Scythian relations and Vedic- Avestan relations is helpful. There is no question that Vedic-Avestan relations are close and direct, whereas Vedic-Scythian ones are remote and perhaps vestigial. But it is very useful, on this list especially, where there is always the temptation to focus attention exclusively on the Indic side of things, to remember that, even if they are peripheral, both Vedic and Scythian belong to the same Indo-Iranian Kulturkreis. [large snip] > >. It is a historical >fact that the trousers as a dress item were invented by the Scyths - the >first really nomadic people who started to spent most of their lives on >horseback (the Vedic Aryans were not true nomads, their way of life was >rather "pastoralism cum agriculture"). It may be true that the Vedic Aryans were not true nomads, as you say, but consider the following: On the Scythian side, cf. Sulimirski [op.cit., p.153]: "The genuine steppe Scyths were nomads who had no permanent homes; they lived on waggons in which women and children spent their lives. The men spent most of their lives on horseback..." On the Vedic side, there are clear references to gRhas,'homes', as *moving* [cf., e.g., RV 6.2.8 & 10.119.13], also grAmas as [wagon] trains likewise on the move [RV 3.33.11]. On the latter, cf. W. Rau [most recently in *Inside the Texts, Beyond the Texts*, already cited]. On the former, cf. Elizarenkova *'Words and Things' in the Rgveda* [PD Gune Memorial Lectures, Sixth Series, BORI, 1995]. As for the Scythian connection, I'd like to call attention to an old but important article by R. Hauschild: 'Das Selbstlob [Atmastuti] des Somaberauschten Gottes Agni' [in *Asiatica: Festschrift Fr. Weller* 1954: public thanks to John Brockington for kindly forwarding it to me some time ago]. As a matter of fact, in this article Hauschild compares RV gRha to the wagons of Scythians, which are described in a Greek text from the Corpus Hippocraticum. This is not to suggest that Vedic Aryans were nomadic in the strict sense. It is to point to vestiges of nomadism in their collective memory [tradition], which was in fact profoundly Indo-Iranian. Hoping that this is of interest to the list in general... Best, GT From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Thu Oct 29 09:39:14 1998 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 04:39:14 -0500 Subject: Rasikipriya Message-ID: <161227042084.23782.14764668790242953859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists: Can anyone help me find a copy of Rasikapriya with English or Hindi translation? Also does anyone know the list of the traditional 16 adornments for a woman in India? Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT Thu Oct 29 07:46:16 1998 From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 07:46:16 +0000 Subject: adresses of Prof. Ruegg and Prof. Lenn Goodman In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981028120047.00963930@mail.rz.uni-sb.de> Message-ID: <161227042077.23782.102014016601098332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can anyone please send me the current addresses of Prof. Ruegg and Prof. >Lenn Goodman? > >Thanking you in advance, >Yours > Narahari Rao Prof. D. Seyfort Ruegg, 15 Cadogan Square, LONDON SW1X OHT (fax 44 171 23559767). Regards, Raffaele Torella Raffaele Torella, Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" (fax:0039- 06-4451209) From ditte.bandini at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Thu Oct 29 07:46:23 1998 From: ditte.bandini at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ditte Bandini) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 08:46:23 +0100 Subject: adresses of Professor Claus Peter Zoller Message-ID: <161227042079.23782.15649958223234026774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alf Hiltebeitel schrieb: > Could anyone help me with the email address of Professor Claus Peter > Zoller of Heidelberg C.-P. Zoller is in Pakistan at the moment. His e-mail-address there is: peter at zoller.sdnpk.undp.org Herzlichst D.Bandini > > From Mayer-Koenig at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE Thu Oct 29 09:04:11 1998 From: Mayer-Koenig at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE (Birgit Mayer-Koenig) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 10:04:11 +0100 Subject: Tantric siddhas - Mina Message-ID: <161227042082.23782.8396628683271976067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Tibor Kovacs, you will find a lot of material and an interesting bibliography in David Gordon White, The Alchemical Body, Chicago and London, The University of Chicago Press 1996. MIna/Matsendra/Macchanda is usually mentioned as the founder of the Kula school. Debabrata Sen Sharma has edited the Matsyendra SaMhita which is ascribed to MatsendranAtha. Calcutta 1994. Regards, Birgit Mayer-Koenig > Dear indologists, > is there anyone who could give me information about the relationship of the siddhas as mentioned at the beginnig of the Hatha-yoga-pradipika and the 84 mahasiddhas of the Vajrayana tradition? I am e > pecially interested in Mina - is it true, that he could be related to Matsyendra and Minapa? > Is there a serious book dealing with the subject? > Which other lists / sanskrit manuscripts is he included? > > Thanks Tibor Kovacs > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 29 19:58:58 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 11:58:58 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042092.23782.771761436746824743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I'd just like to register my support for Miguel Carrasquer Vidal's >critique of Drew's eccentric dating of the PIE breakup [as well as >Drew's strange insistence on a well-planned and highly organized invasion >of the known world by PIE speakers!]. I'd also like to thank MCV for his >overview of the commonly accepted version among scholars, as seen for >example in Mallory. David Anthony, in his 1996 article, Shards of Speech says: "Terms for wheel, axle and draft pole, and a verb meaning 'to go or convey in a vehicle' suggest that PIE existed as a single language after 3500 B.C., when wheeled vehicles were invented. PIE must have begun to disintegrate before 2000 B.C.: by 1500 B.C. three of its daughter languages - Greek, Hittie and Indic - had become quite dissimilar. Altogether, then the linguistic evidence points to a homeland between the Ural and Caucasus mountains, in the centuries between 3500 and 2000 B.C." The lower limit of Anthony's PIE breakup date is 2000 B.C. which is closer to Drews' date. To an outsider like me, it looks as though Anthony, like Drews, is saying that IE spread is mainly due to chariotry. Regards, N. Ganesan >?From Chariot racers of the Steppes. by Shanti Menon. Discover, April 1995 v16 n4 p30(2) <<<<<<<<<<< That would support Anthony's views on a much broader question--that of the origin and spread of Indo-European languages. According to a theory that has become popular in the past two decades, the proto-Indo-Europeans were farmers who began to spread out of Anatolia around 6000 B.C., taking their language and their agriculture with them. But Anthony holds to an older theory, which says the original Indo-Europeans were horsemen from north of the Black Sea--the people whose wagons appear to be ancestral to the Sintashta chariots. The Sintashta people, he thinks, were the original speakers of Indo-Iranian, which later gave rise to ancient Iranian and to the Indic of the Rig Veda. Theirs was an early step in the spread of Indo-European language and culture. And the key to that spread, according to Anthony, was wagons and chariots. In all Indo-European languages, he points out, from Celtic to Sanskrit, the words for axle, wagon, and wheel derive from common roots in the proto-Indo-European that has been reconstructed by linguists. Clearly, Anthony says, speakers of proto-Indo-European must have been familiar with wheeled vehicles, which weren't invented until after 3500 B.C. "The out-of-Anatolia theory is too early," he says. "It would require Indo-European languages to be widely dispersed across Eurasia 2,000 years before the invention of wheeled vehicles." Far more logical, Anthony thinks, is to see things this way: when the proto-Indo-Europeans and their descendants entered Europe and South Asia, carrying their language and their customs with them, they traveled on wheels. >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bvi at AFN.ORG Thu Oct 29 21:03:07 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 16:03:07 -0500 Subject: PIE breakup in ca. 1750 B.C. Message-ID: <161227042094.23782.8857192378160677290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:27 PM 10/27/98 GMT, you wrote: >"N. Ganesan" wrote: > >>The widely published Professor of Classics is saying that >>PIE breakup occured in ca. 1750 B.C. Is he is correct? Otherwise, >>are there any reviews where his theory is shown to be wrong? > >I found one review on the Net, by Bill Darden, Dept. of Slavic, Univ. >of Chicago, which isn't very favourable of either one of the recent >proposals to put the IE homeland in Anatolia [Renfrew, Gamqrelidze & >Ivanov, Drews]. See: . > >In general, theories about the IE homeland (or the homeland of any >linguistic group) cannot be shown to be correct or incorrect. They >must remain a matter of speculation. We can say whether this or that >alternative is more or less likely, given the known present (or >historically recorded) distribution and divergence of the languages, >and given the proposed correlations with archaeological findings. >But without a time machine we can never be sure. > >>Robert Drews, The coming of the Greeks: Indo-European conquestd >>in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton University press, 1988 >>(available in both hard cover and paperback editions) >>page 197: >> >>" Some dubious assumptions about the PIE speakers are interlocked and >>of long standing. One of these assumptions is that when poised on the >>threshold of history, the PIE speakers were a numerous people, making >>up a fair portion of the world's population. For such a multitude, >>a spacious home must be imagined, and a second assumption is that >>the IE homeland was a vast territory, perhaps covering much of >>Eastern Europe or the Eurasian steppe. From this homeland, the >>Indo-Europeans are supposed to have set out, in prehistoric times, in >>a series of massive Volkerwanderungen; eventually, they came to rest >>in the lands in which during historical times the IE languages were >>spoken. The beginnings of these mass migrations are placed between ca. >>4500 >>and ca. 2000 B.C., and the reasons for the migrations are seldom >>stated. >> An alternative picture is more likely. At the end of the third >>millennium, >>the PIE-speaking community was no larger than the Hurrian, the Sumerian, >>the Hattic, or the Proto-Anatolian and was only a fraction the size >>of the Semitic. The PIE-speaking community remained intact, playing no >>significant historical role, until the second quarter of the second >>millennium. In the late seventeenth or early sixteenth century, >>individuals >>and then whole communities of PIE speakers began leaving their native >>lands (probably in the lake district of eastern Anatolia). None of these >>movements of PIE speakers involved a population much larger than that >>of one Mesopotamian city of the first rank. Nor were the movements >>Wanderungen at all. The relocations - some of them apparently by sea- >>were well planned and organized, and their leaders knew where they were >>going and what they would do when they got there. The PIE speakers' >>object in leaving their native lands was to take control of societies >>that were vulnerable and that could profitably be exploited. >> >> Takeovers rather than Volkerwanderungen are what seem to have plagued >>the ancient world in second millennium B.C. The IE takeovers appear to >>have been analogous to the hyksos takeover of Egypt, and to the Kassite >>and Hurrian takeovers of various communities in the Fertile Crescent >>(the Kassites and Hurrians may have been neighbors of the PIE >>speakers before they set out on their adventures). For all of these >>intruders, chariotry was essential: it was their mastery of chariot >>warfare that made it possible for the intruders to conquer and then to >>dominate lands from Egypt and Greece to India. The takeovers were >>motivated, it need hardly be said, by the desire for power and wealth." > >If this is what Drews proposes, then it is the least likely scenario >of the three I have seen for an Anatolian origin of IE. > >The view held by most (but not all) Indo-Europeanists, archaeologists >and historians, which we can call the "standard" view on IE origins, >is basically the one first proposed by Marija Gimbutas and >subsequently refined and argumented in Mallory's "In Search of the >Indo-Europeans". According to this theory, the origins of the IEans >lie in the Eurasian steppe, where by 4500BC we find the Sredny Stog >(in the western steppe [Ukraine] north of the Black Sea) and >Khvalynsk (eastern steppe, north and east of Caspian) cultures, which >are seen as ancestral to IE culture. At the economical level, these >early steppe societies were more based on keeping livestock as well >as hunting and fishing than exclusively on agriculture. The horse >(native to the steppe lands) appears to have been first domesticated >in the Sredny Stog cultural area, c. 4000 BC, which was to lead to >the nomadic way of life that has predominated in the Eurasian steppe >ever since (or at least until the expansion of the Russian Empire in >modern times). The first step was the evolution of the Yamna >(Pit-Grave or "Kurgan") culture c. 3500 BC out of the Khvalynsk and >Sredny Stog cultures. > >Now having domesticated the horse is not something necessarily >exclusive to Indo-Europeans, so in order to make this theory work, it >has to be established that the historical distribution of the IE >languages finds its origins in the Yamna and Khvalynsk/Sredny Stog >cultures of 4500-3500 BC. We have to find evidence from migrations >out of this area into regions where IE languages are later found. > >Cases have been made for early expansions eastwards >(proto-Tocharians?) and westwards into the Balkan peninsula. >The history and origin of the Tocharians (which we find in Chinese >Turkestan in the first centuries AD speaking an IE language not >closely related at all to Iranian) is an enigma in itself. Mallory >makes an, I think, convincing case for linking the Afanasievo culture >(<3000 BC) of the Upper Yenisei river to the Proto-Tocharians, based >on archaeological similarities between Afansievo and the more western >steppe cultures Sredny Stog/Khvalynsk and its 5th mill. predecessors >(Dnepr-Donets culture, Samara culture). > >The situation in the Balkans is also obscure. The "Old European" >civilization (Karanovo, Starc^evo, Vinc^a) which had flourished there >from the 7th millennium to c. 4200 BC was suddenly interrupted. In >the so-called "Balkan dark ages" (c. 4200-3200 BC) most of the tells >were abandoned (but in Romania and the Western Ukraine, the "Old >European" Tripolye culture was apparently unaffected). Gimbutas and >others have argued that the fall of Old Europe was due to IE "Kurgan" >invasions from the steppe. As in the case of the IVC, others have >argued that Vinc^a and related cultures collapsed of their own >account [a further parallel between Vinc^a and the IVC are the >mysterious signs found on Vinc^a artefacts, which might be the oldest >writing in the world]. > >What seems clear, in any case, is that when the settlements were >occupied again, 500-1000 years later, things had changed profoundly, >and cultures like Ozero/Cernavoda (3200 BC) have more in common with >the Kurgan cultures of the steppe than with the old Vinc^a. There is >overall pretty good evidence for direct invasions from the Kurgan >area into the Balkans (and from there to Greece [Early Helladic I] >and Anatolia [Troy I]). > >Turning to the east again, the origin of Indo-Iranian can also be >traced back to the Yamna/Kurgan cultures of the 4th/3rd. millennium. >By 2000 BC, the area of modern Russian Turkestan is occcupied by the >Kurgan-derived Andronovo culture, ancestral to the Iranians or the >Indo-Iranians as a whole, depending on where one wants to put the >split between the two. I would favour a slightly early date, making >Andronovo exclusively Iranian, with the Dardic/Indo-Aryan speakers >already in Kashmir, watching the IVC collapse. > >So far, I would say the "standard" theory makes a plausible case for >deriving Tocharian, the IE languages of the Balkans (Thracian, >Dacian, Illyrian/Albanian, Greek, Phrygian, ?Armenian), and >Indo-Iranian from the 4th mill. Kurgan area (Eurasian steppe). >Balto-Slavic, just north of the steppe area, is not so hard to fit in >either, although evidence for migrations is weak or absent. >However, when it comes to Northern, Central and Western Europe >(Germanic, Celtic, Italic) and to the Anatolian languages (Hittite, >Luwian/Lycian, Lydian), Mallory's case is much weaker. [And Drews' >case is pathetically absent]. > >The problem with Anatolian is that it's simply too deviant, >linguistically, to be a recent offshoot of PIE. We must allow >Anatolian a lot of time to become so different from the rest, and if >we want to derive Anatolian, like --say-- Greek, from the Kurgan >invasions into the Balkans (4200-3200) there just isn't enough time. > >As to NWC-Europe, it is true that at approximately the right time (c. >3000 BC) an important cultural change took place, whereby the earlier >seemingly egalitarian and largely vegetarian society of the Neolithic >(LBK, TRB cultures, etc.) was replaced by a more hierarchic, >meat-eating, milk-drinking and male-dominated society (Corded Ware >around the Baltic c. 3000 BC, Bell Beaker in Central Europe, >spreading to France, Britain, Spain and Italy c. 2500 BC). But there >is no sign of migrations or invasions. And Drews' theory of IE >"takeovers" falls flat on its face. There was nothing to take over >here: no state, no towns, no riches, no large populations to enslave, >just the vast expanse of the Northern European plain with every now >and then a farmhouse or a small village. > >These scattered farmers had diffused into the area from the Balkans >starting from c. 5500 BC. (by a process Renfrew calls "wave of >advance", which is exactly the opposite of what Drews suggests: >nobody was planning anything, and nobody was even aware thwy were >moving, they were just establishing new farmhouses a couple of miles >from their parents'. The net result was the spread of agriculture >across the European continent). In my view, they, like the "Old >European" folk of the Balkans [which were to become the >Proto-Anatolians] spoke an IE language. At the same time as they >spread into Central and Northern Europe, they probably also spread >into the Eastern parts of Europe and the Ukrainian forest-steppe >(Dnepr-Donets culture, c. 5300 BC), and some of them even further >east, eventually all the way to Chinese Turkestan (this would explain >why Tocharian looks like a "Western" IE language). The Eastern IE >dialects (so-called "Indo-Greek") would then have evolved their >characteristics later as a set of innovations within the Ukrainian >area, possibly as a result of the Kurgan phenomenon. It was these >Eastern ("Kurgan") IEans which, as outlined above, then spread west >into the Balkans (possibly pushing the "Old Europeans" >[Proto-Anatolians] back into Greece and Anatolia) and east into Iran >and India. The Western IEans (Germanic(-Balto-Slavic) and >Italo-Celtic), while they did adopt some of the cultural and social >changes developed by the Kurgan people of the steppe, were never >subjected to a full scale invasion, and their languages go back, in >my view, to the original "Danubian" language of the earliest >LBK/Linear Ware farmers. As a consequence of the social change in >the "Bell Beaker" period, Indo-Euroepan languages did spread further >into areas of SW Europe that had not previously been >Indo-Europeanized (S. France, Britain?, Spain, Italy). > > >======================= >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal >mcv at wxs.nl >Amsterdam > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 29 16:55:53 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 16:55:53 +0000 Subject: address of Sims-Williams In-Reply-To: <362C635B.B053BDB8@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227042088.23782.15504933716369326473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Harry Falk wrote: > A collegue of mine is in need of the address of Prof. N. Sims-Williams, > > mail or email. ns5 at soas.ac.uk All the best, Dominik From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Oct 30 02:38:05 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 18:38:05 -0800 Subject: PIE breakup in ca. 1750 B.C. Message-ID: <161227042099.23782.16624037180919944431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, "...ratham na kulis'ah samr.n.vati" (RV 3.2.1)(Wilson's translation based on Sa_yan.a's commentary: as a wheelwright fabricates a car". Pa_n.ini interprets 'rathya' as a chariot with its team or equipment; ra_c = tools, implements, furniture,materials (Gujara_ti_). Derivatives are 'raccha_' = carriage-road (Pali. Pkt.); 'raham.ga' = wheel (Pkt.) cakra = wheel (RV); ca_k = wheel (Gujara_ti_); saka = wheel (Sinhala); cakkaram (San:gam Tamil). Derivatives: chakr.u~ = cart (Gujara_ti_); chakr.a_ = two-wheeled bullock-cart (Hindi); s'akat.ika_ (Pa_n.ini); caka_ri_ = wheel rut (Mara_t.hi_); kula_la cakka = potter's wheel (Pali). 'kulis'a' seems to be cognate (?) with kullad.a = fireplace, small vessel (Pkt.) I shall be grateful for lexemes in the IE stream (both proto- and later) related to the semantics: carriage, wheel, wheelwright and the possible hypothetical constructions of IE. I am not able to readily access Carl Darling Buck's synonyms in principal IE languages. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From cbmuseu at ATT.NET Fri Oct 30 02:40:44 1998 From: cbmuseu at ATT.NET (Catherine Benkaim) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 18:40:44 -0800 Subject: Rasikipriya Message-ID: <161227042101.23782.4102072582333244914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A very good translation is by K.P. Bahadur, published by Motilal Banarsidass in1972. address: bungalow road, jawahar nagar, delhi 7 Harsha V. Dehejia wrote: > Dear Indologists: Can anyone help me find a copy of Rasikapriya with > English or Hindi translation? Also does anyone know the list of the > traditional 16 adornments for a woman in India? Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Thu Oct 29 17:50:41 1998 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 18:50:41 +0100 Subject: Book announcement Message-ID: <161227042090.23782.6251091089459381407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For all interested: my book "Der Hinduismus: Geschichte und Gegenwart" has just been released by C.H. Beck publishers, Munich. A table of content can be found under the following URL: http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND/neuepub.htm Best wishes, Axel Michaels From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 29 14:23:13 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 98 19:23:13 +0500 Subject: An address Message-ID: <161227042087.23782.15570392647163766507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody on the list provide me with the e-mail address of Dr.Joseph Elfenbeim? Thanks, Bh. K. Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 Telephone:40-7019665 From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Oct 29 21:48:29 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 00:48:29 +0300 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042145.23782.6578082266212589709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Vidal, thank you very much for the reference. Now I see that the only source of the concept in question is Prof. D'jakonov's article in "Orientalia" 41 (1972). Both A.Kammenhuber and N.B.Jankowska(ja) were directly influenced by him (one by way of private correspondence with him which she refers to in her book, another being his pupil). I remember this article only too well, because when Igor' Mikhailovich worked on its first, Russian version, it was me as the youngest indologist in the Institute at that time who was asked to provide him with all possible Vedic parallels to the "Mitanni Aryan" words. It was too far from my interests in those days, I knew too little and, I am afraid, I let him down. I am sure he knew already everything that I could give him. I hope that now I could offer some suggestions of my own, not just repeat old etymologies. For example, I would suggest now that the name vRddhAzva does not mean "Having big horses" (as is commonly held) - but both vRddhAzva "One whose horses are old" and tuzratta / duSratha "One whose chariot is bad" (usually scholars add: "for his enemies") are specific Indo-Iranian names with "magical function", of the same type as zara-tuStra "One whose camels are old" - all these names aiming at turning off, repelling evil spirits by way of showing them the insignificance and poverty of the man bearing the name (old horses/or camels, bad chariot, no money, nothing interesting at all here, go away!). The general tendency of the article was dictated, probably, by Prof. D'jakonov's background: his years of education and first scholarly achievements coincided in time with the triumph of Nikolaj Marr's "new language theory" with its total negation of Comparative linguistics and, first of all, of "Indo-Europeism" as "burgeois" and "colonialistic" scholarship. And though Igor' Mikhailovich never was a Marrist (on the contrary, he is universally known as the scholar who applied with brilliant success all the achievements of Comparative linguistics to the study of ancient Asian languages), he still shares some beliefs of his young years and, in particular, is very sceptical about "Indo-Europeism" and some of its "myths". This is probably one of the reasons why the article "The End of a Myth" was not a success. It did convinced nobody among Indologists, Iranists and Indoeuropeists in Russia. Such scholars as V.Toporov, V.Ivanov, T.Elizarenkova, G.M.Bongard-Levin, V.Livshits and others consider still the Mitanni names and terms to be the trustworthy evidence on the language of Proto-Indo-Aryans. As far as I know Professor D'jakonov never tried to renew the discussion or develop the ideas of his article (The Prehistory of the Armenian People, NY, 1984 is probably a translation of his earlier work). In his "Archaic Myths in the East and West" (Russian ed.: Moscow, 1990; English translation published in Stockholm several years later) he just briefly remarks that "an unknown Indo-Iranian language spoken by the ancestors of the Mitanni dynasty" demonstrates some features which put it very close to Kafiri/Nuristani languages. Putting aside the problem of the proper attribution of the Mitanni lexical material inside the group of Indo-Iranian languages, I wonder why only "ancestors" of the Mittani rulers, and not these rulers and warriors themselves would speak the language which could be heard in every root and syllable of their names? Let us turn to historical parallels: after all Vimas and KaniSkas there comes VAsudeva - and it is the sign of the "indianization" of the kuSANa dynasty. First Russian princes of Scandinavian origin - Ruerick, Oleg (Helgi), Igor (Ingvar), Vladimir (Voldemar) were the Northmen by names and by their language/culture, but the Kievan prince Yaroslav, my namesake and saint-patron, son of Vladimir, not only bore a typical Russiav (Slavic) name but definitely spoke and wrote good Old Russian - in spite of the fact that noble Vikings from the West were still welcomed at his court. But since that time Scandinavian names of courtiers and warriors in old Russian chronicles become more and more rare, and soon disappear completely. If it is true that the Mittani rulers bore Indo-Iranian names until 13 cent. BC, what makes us believe that they did not understand the meaning of their own names? At that time every name had its meaning, there were no Bible or Christian names in honour of ancient saints, which had lost long ago its original meaning in Hebrew or Greek. Lastly, one more objection to Kammenhuber and Diakonov's critique of "Mitanni Aryan". The Indo-Iranian etymology of marianna/mariannu is not to be discarded just because there is a related word mari- in Urartian. One must add to it an Ingush (i.e., North Caucasian) word mar- 'man' (traced to marya- by J.Harmatta) or Mari (Tcheremis) mari-, marij- "man; noble" used by a small Finno-Ugric people in the Volga basin as their ethnic name (now the Marij-El republic in Russia; the Indo-Iranian ethymology of the word is generally accepted, see Joki 1974: 280). All these words seem to point to the root of the supposed Proto-Indo-Aryan migration from Volga and South Ural via Caucausus to Northern Iran. Urartu is just one more link in the chain. And by the way, the original meaning if the Indo-Iranian *marya- had no association with "aristocracy", it meant rather a young warrior, member of a Maennerbund or a band of young warriors/raiders (probably, a prototype of the Indian saMgha or gaNa). Best regards and wishes, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > It is not the first time that participants of the discussion refer to a >concept according to which Indo-Aryan words in Mitanni Hurrian were just >very old loan words from a forgotten language which had already been dead >for centuries, and that old notion that there were Aryans among Mitanni >ruling elite is wrong. Unfortunately I don't know the source of the concept >and how seriously it was argumented. All that I see is that it is, of course, >politically correct. My source is Michalowski, based primarily on Kammenhuber and D'jakonov. Here are two of Piotr's postings on sci.archaeology regarding the matter: Subject: marianna- Hurrian or IE? From: piotrm at umich.edu (Piotr Michalowski) Date: 1996/12/05 Message-ID: Newsgroups: sci.archaeology Since there has been much discussion of the supposed "Aryan aristocracy" in second millennium Western Asia, I thought it might be useful to provide a very brief discussion of the matter. The main basis for this hypothesis is the word marianna, supposedly IE and supposedly meaning "aristocrat," or the like. The word appears primarily in texts from the Hitttite capital, from Ugarit and Alalakh in Syria, in Nuzi in northern Mesopotamia. Already in 1910 it had been proposed that this word derived from Indic marya-, "young man," with the Hurrian ending -anne. This has been repeated many times, although there have been those who have not accepted this etymology. A full discussion with references can be found in Annelies Kammenhuber, Die Arier im Vorderen Asien (Heidelberg, 1968). Kammenhuber was also against this and cited Igor Diakonoff's private correspondence to her in which he proposed that the word was not a loan in Hurrian, but a native word, as demonstrated by Urartian mari- (Urartian and Hurrian are cognate languages from the same linguistic stock, according to Diakonoff and Starostin, East Caucasian). The fact that this was not a loan in Hurrian solved many morphological problems. Etymology aside, there is no evidence that marianna were the "aristocracy," and, indeed, the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary v. M defines the word simply as "chariot driver." It is also clear from personnel lists from Alalakh that m. were not at the top of the heap. In his Pre-history of the Armenian People (NY 1984) p. 37 Diakonoff writes: "It seems, though, that it is a mistake to assign the marianna (charioteers) to the aristocracy. And there is no evidence to suggest that the marianna were Indo-Iranians, as some scholars suggest." N. B. Jankowka also notes that the word is Hurro-Urartian, and adds, "Note also that the marianna were not a "feudal aristocracy"; they were palace personnel..." (Diakonoff, ed, Early Antiquity (Chicago, 1991) 244. For a full argumentation see Diakonoff, Die Arier im Vorderen Orient--Ende eines Mythos," Orientalia 41 (1972). Author: Piotr Michalowski Date: 1996/09/28 Forums: sci.archaeology In article <52jqhc$3dr at sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> S.NEMETH at IX.NETCOM.COM (Stella Nemeth) writes: >I have a question. If Mitanni Indo-Aryan was a dead language by the >time of the Hittites, what did the Mitanni who fought the Hittites >speak at the time of their war? I think that there is a bit of terminological confusion here. There were no people called Mitanni; that was the name of a state. It would appear from their writings that they were primarily Hurrian speaking. In fact, the longest Hurrian text that we have is a letter sent by Tushratta, the king of Mitanni, to the pharoah and found at Tell el-Amarna in Egypt. Some of the rulers of Mitanni had Indo-European names. There was a long discussion on the nature of these names and of IE loan words in Hurrian and the main agreement these days seems to be that this was not a living language at the time, but only remnants of previous contacts that certain Hurrian groups had with IE dialects elsewhere. The analysis of these words seems to indicate that this had nothing to do with the Anatolian branch of IE ("Hittite"), but with eastern dialects. I believe that I noted this before, but I will again. The classic statement of all of this is by I. Diakonoff, "Die Arier im Vorderen Asien--Ende eines Mythos," Orientalia 41, 1972. In English one can read his The Prehistory of the Armenian Peoples, Caravan Books, 1984. [...] ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Oct 29 22:46:19 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 01:46:19 +0300 Subject: corrections again Message-ID: <161227042146.23782.9660896294722399026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Corrections again: zarat-uStra, of course. "point to the route", not "the root". "of", not "if" and probably more. Sorry. One past midnight. Ya.V. From mudra at INCH.COM Fri Oct 30 09:16:24 1998 From: mudra at INCH.COM (Venantius J Pinto) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 04:16:24 -0500 Subject: History of Marathi Grammar (in Marathi)...Free copies In-Reply-To: <199810300807.NAA14600@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227042106.23782.12198031661689283996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear K. S. Arjunwadkar, I am an Indian artist working in the US. I am also on the Indology listserve and read your post regarding your offer to gift copies of the History of Marathi Grammar. I am from Chembur, Mumbai and have been visiting the forts of Maharashtra for many years and have read Saad Sahyadrinchi Bhatkanti Killeanchi and Maharastrache Dhartitye. I would appreciate if you can let me know how I may go about obtaining a copy of your precious book. Perhaps you could mail it to my address in Mumbai: Venantius J Pinto, 21/726 Subash Nagar, Chembur Mumbai 400071, Maharashtra INDIA. I will make sure that my brother reimburses you the postage and also for the cost of the book if you choose to accept money for it. I am not an academic but am a artist who is constantly ruminating and looking for answers including into our past. Sincerely, Venantius J Pinto From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 30 13:43:31 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 05:43:31 -0800 Subject: Puri: Jagannatha Temple: Relics Message-ID: <161227042110.23782.13176850041378740652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Mary Storm Subject: Re: Puri: Jagannatha Temple: Relics INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Call for papers ***** About the Journal The aim of the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is to examine Hinduism centrally and in a special way. It wishes to consider Hinduism analytically and comparatively as a "form of life" as clarified by its contrasts and similarities to other historical and present day forms. This is to say that we will be less concerned with the intrinsic forms of Hinduism and its history, as illuminated by philological and descriptive studies. Rather, our focus will be, on the one hand, on Hinduism's adaptations to a wide range of historical circumstances and ecological, economic, and political possibilities and, on the other, on the Hindu forms that work "on the ground" in particular places and times to generate special kinds of social, cultural, and psychological order and problems. We consider this to be necessarily a comparative exploration and welcome (and need) contributions from scholars in other fields who wish to bring their own studies of religion, world views, theories of modernity and pre-modernity, social organization and social control, and so on, into dialogue with Hindu studies. We equally encourage South Asia scholars to explore such perspectives in their own work. We wish to explore whether it may be productive to ask--in addition to the descriptive "_What_ is Hinduism?"--the theoretical question (or questions, for we expect there is a large and productive set of answers) "_Why_ is Hinduism the way it is?" The Journal, therefore, invites submissions of a comparative or theoretical nature in all fields of the social sciences and humanities in the hope of furthering a dialogue that centers on one of the great human creations, Hinduism, which differs in so many respects from the religions and societies that have informed much of classical Western thought. Articles falling within the broad and deliberately somewhat vague boundaries we envisage will be chosen on the basis of the quality, importance and general interest of the research, the force of theoretical argument, and felicity of expression. Three copies of the paper should be submitted. _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is a double-blind, peer- reviewed journal, and all submissions are reviewed by at least three independent reviewers. Completed manuscripts and inquiries about material for possible publication should be sent to the Editor: Dr Sushil Mittal, University of Florida, Department of Religion, 125 Dauer Hall, PO Box 117410, Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410, USA. Tel: 352,392-1625; Fax: 352,392-7395; Email: . Books for review and correspondence concerning reviews should be sent to the Review Editor: Dr Carl Olson, Department of Religious Studies, Allegheny College, Meadville, Pennsylvania 16335-3902, USA. Tel: 814,332-3313; Fax: 814,333-8180; Email . _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ (ISSN 1022-4556) is published three times a year in April, August, and December. For information on subscriptions and/or advertising contact World Heritage Press, Journals Department, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2. Fax: 450,771-2776; Tel: 450,771-0213. JOURNAL HOMEPAGE Full details on the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal homepage at: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ The site includes a statement of aims and scope, list of editors, information for prospective contributors, reviewers, subscribers, and advertisers. Also includes contents, abstracts, and information about authors for each issue as published, and plans for upcoming issues. APPEAL Currently the International Institute of India Studies and World Heritage Press are engaged in a subscription drive on behalf of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. If you like what we are doing help us obtain new subscribers. Please encourage your colleagues and students and PLEASE GET YOUR LIBRARY to subscribe to _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. Every subscription counts!!! Many many thanks in advance. For further information, please send inquiries to: World Heritage Press, Journals Divison 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Fax 450,771-2776; Tel 450,771-0213 ========================================================================== Dr Sushil Mittal University of Florida Department of Religion 125 Dauer Hall, PO Box 117410 Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410 Telephone (352) 392-1625 Telefax (352) 392-7395 E-mail smittal at religion.ufl.edu IJHS Homepage http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 30 07:34:11 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 13:04:11 +0530 Subject: History of Marathi Grammar (in Marathi)...Free copies Message-ID: <161227042104.23782.14358863877776284529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" Oct 30, 1998 Dear Members, Of the many works I have authored in the area of linguistic study of Marathi, I wish to gift 25 copies of the History of Marathi Grammar (in Marathi) to academic/educational institutes and individuals interested in this study, -- to ensure the survival and knowledge, and facilitate the study, of this subject and work in places where Marathi is spoken and/or studied. This work, published in 1992, is the product of a devoted study of more than 20 years, and covers the history of the subject of about 7 centuries from its beginnings in 14th century upto a recent work published in 1990. It reviews 109 small and extensive works on the subject divided in suitable groups; and discusses in its epilogue the strong and weak points of the tradition as well as the scientific lines on which it should proceed. Those interested can contact me on the e-mail address given above. Best wishes. KSA From Adrian.Burton at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Oct 30 02:24:38 1998 From: Adrian.Burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 13:24:38 +1100 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava literatures In-Reply-To: <002d01bdff6b$ac4aaac0$ace7ced0@krishna_susarla.swmed.edu> Message-ID: <161227042097.23782.697416640914907134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Excuse me for not giving all the details about English translations of the Tattva Sandarbha (I don't keep all these books here at my office). Please note a third version by Swami B.V. Tripurari (which I have not personally read but which has been commended to me and which is apparently in use in some universities in the US): "Jiva Goswami's Tattva Sandarbha: a study in the sectarian development of the Gaudiya Sampradaya" tr. Stuart Elkmann published: Motilal Banarsi Dass (1986) "Sri Tattva Sandarbha of Srila Jiva Goswami" tr. Satya Narayana Dasa and Kundali Dasa published: Jiva Intitute, Brindavan? (1995) "Tattva-sandarbha; Sacred India's Phliosophy of Ecstacy" tr. Swami B.V. Tripurari published:Calrion Call,(1995) ______________________________________________________________ Adrian Burton tel:(61) (2) 6279 8240 South and West Asia Centre fax:(61) (2) 6279 8326 Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University 0200 ACT Australia From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Oct 30 11:22:57 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 14:22:57 +0300 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042125.23782.1745230391006833272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 30 Oct. Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >The old notion that the Mitanni were a Hurrian tribe ruled by an Indo-Aryan >aristocracy must be abandoned. The fact that Hurrians and Indo-Iranians were >at one time in contact, and that the Hurrians borrowed technical terms to do >with horsemanship as well as the names of some Indo-Aryan gods >(Indra, Mitra, Waruna) is undeniable, but the fact that these terms >show up in texts from 1500 BC doesn't tell us anything about when >exactly the borrowings took place. "Mitanni Indo-Aryan" was clearly >a dead language by then. It is not the first time that participants of the discussion refer to a concept according to which Indo-Aryan words in Mitanni Hurrian were just very old loan words from a forgotten language which had already been dead for centuries, and that old notion that there were Aryans among Mitanni ruling elite is wrong. Unfortunately I don't know the source of the concept and how seriously it was argumented. All that I see is that it is, of course, politically correct. But before we accept it, we have to explain away somehow the fact that the "Mitanni Indo-Aryan" cannot be reduced just to several numerals in Kikkuli's manual and several divine names in a treaty, and there is also a number of personal names of Mittanian rulers and nobles which betray their Indo-Aryan origin. Of special significance are such names as bArdazwa, son of BiridAzwa, and Saumati - probably "son of Sumati" - the names demonstrating the specifically Indo-Aryan way of forming patronimics to personal names by lengthening a vowel of the first sillable of a composit name (cf. Indian *vArddgAzva from *vRddhAzva, or *saumati from sumati). One has also to explain the presense at that time in Mitanni and some neighbouring countries of people with such names as bIrasEna, indrota, artazzumara and so on. Can anybody tell me who is the author of the concept in question and how did he/she deal with the names of this kind? Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From mcv at WXS.NL Fri Oct 30 16:00:40 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 16:00:40 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042112.23782.13243324582395381911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: >As a way of steering this thread back to the Indological sphere, perhaps >MCV could be persuaded to comment on the following: > >"Turning to the east again, the origin of Indo-Iranian can also be traced >back to the Yamna/Kurgan cultures of the 4th/3rd. millennium. By 2000 BC, >the area of modern Russian Turkestan is occcupied by the Kurgan-derived >Andronovo culture, ancestral to the Iranians or the Indo-Iranians as a >whole, depending on where one wants to put the split between the two. I >would favour a slightly early date, making Andronovo exclusively Iranian, >with the Dardic/Indo-Aryan speakers already in Kashmir, watching the IVC >collapse...." > >I am interested in a more detailed and specific discussion of both the >location and the time of the Indo-Iranian split. Well, let's first see the linguistic evidence. As far as I can ascertain, the accepted subgrouping of the Indo-Iranian languages is: Indo-Iranian / | \ Iranian Nuristani Indic / \ / \ /\ Eastern Dardic /\ / \ / \ / Parachi-Ormuri Western \ Western /|\ / | \ Central | Eastern Southern If we put Indo-Iranian in Central Asia (say, Uzbekistan) somewhere in the 3rd millennium, one can almost read off the subsequent movements/developments from the cladogram. [Almost reads like one of Drews' mythical "marching orders" :-)] We can put the split between Eastern and Western Iranian c. 1400 BC, the start of Iron Age I in Western Iran, when as Mallory says "there is a major cultural break in this region", and traditional pottery is replaced by Iranian grey wares. This probably indicates the first arrival of the Western Iranians in the Iranian plateau, where Medes and Persians will soon start to play an important role in Near Eastern history. The split between Indic-Dardic and Iranian-Nuristani is harder to pin down. Mallory ("In Search of the Indo-Europeans") favours the Gandhara Grave culture of the Swat Valley (c. 1800 BC) as the earliest Indic-Dardic arrivals in the Indus area, and wants to connect that with the subsequent Cemetery H culture (not precisely dated) of post-IVC Harappa, and further the Painted Grey Ware culture (c. 1300-400 BC) of the Punjab and western Ganges valley, which few would deny is Indo-Aryan. On the other hand, this "low" chronology is complicated by the presence of "Indo-Iranian" grey wares and horses as early as 3000 BC at Shah Tepe in the Gorgan area, and c. 2300 BC, grey wares and animal burials at Burzahom in Kashmir. A further complication, which is developed at length in Mallory's account of Iranian and Indo-Aryan origins, is the presence of an Indo-Aryan element among the Hurrians. This is the famous Mitanni problem. The Kikkuli text on horsemanship, found in the Hittite archives at Boghazkoy, leaves no doubt about the presence of Indo-Iranian words in Mitanni Hurrian. We have the series aikawartanna, terawartanna, panzawartanna, sattawartanna and nawartanna, i.e. 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 turns around the horse-track. The question is, what are these Aryan words doing in the Hurrian vocabulary? The old notion that the Mitanni were a Hurrian tribe ruled by an Indo-Aryan aristocracy must be abandoned. The fact that Hurrians and Indo-Iranians were at one time in contact, and that the Hurrians borrowed technical terms to do with horsemanship as well as the names of some Indo-Aryan gods (Indra, Mitra, Waruna) is undeniable, but the fact that these terms show up in texts from 1500 BC doesn't tell us anything about when exactly the borrowings took place. "Mitanni Indo-Aryan" was clearly a dead language by then. Now, the Hurrians themselves are not native to the Near East, and Mesopotamian documents first mention the Hurrians as invadors shortly before 2000 BC. It is not known where they came from, although it is usually conjectured from the Caucasus. But if we suppose they came from the Caspian area in the north-east, i.e. from the neighbourhood of Gorgan and Shah Tepe, it is plain to see that the Hurrians may have adopted their grey wares and horsemanship from the Indo-Iranians of Central Asia already by 3000 BC. As an additional benefit, that would resolve the otherwise intractable (see Mallory) problem of why the "Mitanni-Aryan" numeral "1" is aika-, the Sanskrit form (eka- < *aika-), instead of the Iranian form *aiwa- (or *aiwaka-). If the word was borrowed by the Hurrians from common Indo-Iranian, c. 3000 BC, the word might have been *aika- in all (not yet differentiated) Indo-Iranian dialects of that period, and the divine names would still be unaffected by the Zoroastrian reform among the Iranians of a much later period. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Oct 31 01:32:44 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 17:32:44 -0800 Subject: Mitanni problem (Was SV: method of dating RV, III) Message-ID: <161227042118.23782.15075761117856127713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: [snip]>A further complication, which> is developed at length in Mallory's account of Iranian and Indo-Aryan > origins, is the presence of an Indo-Aryan element among the Hurrians.> This is the famous Mitanni problem.[snip]> The Kikkuli text on horsemanship, found in the Hittite archives at> Boghazkoy, leaves no doubt about the presence of Indo-Iranian words> in Mitanni Hurrian.[snip] > Now, the Hurrians themselves are not native to the Near East, and> Mesopotamian documents first mention the Hurrians as invadors shortly> before 2000 BC. It is not known where they came from, although it is> usually conjectured from the Caucasus. But if we suppose they came> from the Caspian area in the north-east, i.e. from the neighbourhood> of Gorgan and Shah Tepe, it is plain to see that the Hurrians may> have adopted their grey wares and horsemanship from the Indo-Iranians> of Central Asia already by 3000 BC.> As an additional benefit, that would resolve the otherwise> intractable (see Mallory) problem of why the "Mitanni-Aryan" numeral> "1" is aika-, the Sanskrit form (eka- < *aika-), instead of the> Iranian form *aiwa- (or *aiwaka-). If the word was borrowed by the> Hurrians from common Indo-Iranian, c. 3000 BC, the word might have> been *aika- in all (not yet differentiated) Indo-Iranian dialects of> that period, and the divine names would still be unaffected by the> Zoroastrian reform among the Iranians of a much later period.[snip] Paul Thieme wrote in 1960 on this problem: "...The historian will devise a theory to explain how 'Indians', or 'Proto-Indians', or 'Para-Indians', or 'Proto-Aryans' could come into Western Asia and exercise influence inferable from these linguistic traces. The linguist is entitled to be more modest. At the first step, he will not attempt to offer an explication in terms of a hypothesis, but to reach a factual decision on the linguistic character of the terms that confront him...Do Mitra, Varun.a, Indra and the two Na_satyas protect treaties in the RV? and: Is it likely or provable that they did so in Proto-Aryan times? To the first question a strictly factual answer can be given: all the named gods indeed are said to protect treaties in the RV (Rigveda), even the two Na_satyas, though these only ocasionally. The second one cannot be answered with the same confidence, since we have no primary sources of Proto-Aryan religion and must rely upon the resources of techniques of reconstruction... " [Burrow tries to refute (unsuccessfully, I think) these views of Thieme by an extraordinary argument dating Avesta to a date as early as 1000 BC!] The evidence seems to point to Vedic sources to explain the Kikkuli horse manual and the reference to 5 specific Vedic gods in the treaties, without any need to postulate a Proto-Aryan religion or an Indo-Iranian language. More extracts from Thieme's thoroughly evidenced article (JRAS, 1960: 301-317) are at: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/mesopnew/mitanni.htm Meluhhans were in Sumer and needed an interpreter as evidenced by a cylinder seal (and perhaps, there was a Meluhhan colony too, cf. Parpola); why can't another hypothesis be explored? That some Vedic-speaking 'Proto-indians' migrated in the first second half of the third millennium, via the sea-route, i.e. from the Sindhu to the Persian gulf and upstream on the Euphrates to Mitanni, Bogazhkoi, carrying the tradition of cylinder seals with battle motifs, unicorns, ligatured animals, specialized horse-training Vedic vocabulary and Sanskrit names... Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Oct 30 15:14:52 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 18:14:52 +0300 Subject: correction (method of dating RV, III) Message-ID: <161227042129.23782.17494202532511524225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of course, the difference between *vRddhAzva and *VArddhAzva, *saumati and sumati - can not be described as the result of a vowel's "lengthening". It is just the change from guNa to vRddhi state of a vowel. I am sorry for this mistake which is due to the fact that my English is poor and I was in a hurry at the moment. Ya.V. _______________________________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph. D. Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From thompson at JLC.NET Sat Oct 31 02:59:23 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 21:59:23 -0500 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042120.23782.3216392531122312351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob, I don't understand this at all. What do you mean by "two different metrical systems"? As far as I can tell, Gathic metrics seems more primitive than Vedic, since it appears to involve little more than syllable counting, whereas Vedic metrics is closer to the quantitative metrics of archaic Greek poetry, with its more or less regular alternations between long and short syllables. Otherwise, the two seem very similar, in terms of line length. You find two basic line lengths in Gathic Avestan: 7 to 9 syllable lines [comparable to Vedic gAyatrI-anuSTubh]; and a longer line consisting of 4 + 7 [comparable to Vedic triSTubh-jagatI]. Admittedly, the stanza shape is rather different in Gathic than in Vedic. The shorter Gathic line [of 7 to 9 syllables] is organized into couplets [hemistichs] which are themselves grouped into triplets [so that we typically get Gathic stanzas of this type consisting of three such couplets of 7 and then 9 syllables]. The longer Gathic line [of 4 + 7 syllables] is typically clustered into stanzas of five such lines. Admittedly, these stanzas don't look very Vedic. But the fundamental unit is the line, which is obviously very similar to the standard Vedic line [the short line consisting of 8 syllables, the long one consisting of 11 or 12]. I think it is wrong to consider the stanza the basic unit of measure. In short, to my knowledge the 'conventional wisdom' recognizes these two metrical systems as closely related. And what is it that seems misleading about the term "Indo-Iranian" in this context? George >Regarding the statement that the rgveda and the avesta represent >relics of a common Indian & Iranian tradition (that of the "second >Aryan homeland" to use Y.Vassilkov's phrase -- I'd find the term >Indo-Iranian misleading here) what is the conventional wisdom >as to why they ended up in two different metrical systems? Some >things were shared (poetic formulary, religious concepts) while >others were not (metrical forms), but why? From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Fri Oct 30 15:59:55 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 00:59:55 +0900 Subject: Dates of Utpaladeva Message-ID: <161227042133.23782.1882667907989677699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raffaele Torella wrote: > Utpaladeva's date mainly depends on Abhinavagupta's. Fortunately, the > latter was kind enough to put a (reliable) date at the end of his > I'svarapratyabhij~naa-vivrtivimarsini, which is likely to be one of his > last works. The date is 1015 A.D.(with the usual fluctuation of some > months). Utpaladeva is Abhinava's paramaguru. > Belated thanks to Prof. Torella for this clarification. Regards, -- birgit kellner department for indian philosophy hiroshima university From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Oct 31 00:34:37 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 01:34:37 +0100 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042117.23782.6956892371375614252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the statement that the rgveda and the avesta represent relics of a common Indian & Iranian tradition (that of the "second Aryan homeland" to use Y.Vassilkov's phrase -- I'd find the term Indo-Iranian misleading here) what is the conventional wisdom as to why they ended up in two different metrical systems? Some things were shared (poetic formulary, religious concepts) while others were not (metrical forms), but why? From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Oct 31 01:02:39 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 06:02:39 +0500 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042114.23782.7726350792020135210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Oct 31 16:02:12 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 08:02:12 -0800 Subject: Mitanni problem Message-ID: <161227042135.23782.13612456176526768824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MC Vidal wrote:> One would expect such a migration to have been noticed and recorded> by the Sumerians and Akkadians of Mesopotamia. (Unless it happened> in the 50 years or so of Gutian rule, between tha fall of Sargon's> Akkadian empire and the "Sumerian revival" of Gudea of Lagash and Ur> III).> > The Hurrians themselves, when they appear in the neighbourhood of> Mesopotamia c. 2200, are said to do so from the north and east. Vidal is right; the migration has not been recorded by Sumerians and Akkadians. But, does the absence of a Sumerian/Akkadian record, rule out the sea-route for the migration? The identification of Dilmun, Makan and Meluhha is also an open question (cf. Kramer identifying Dilmun with IVC); though the substantial bronze age trade contacts across the Gulf are emphatically recorded; the glyptic evidence on cylinder seals is compelling; though the glyphs have not been fully deciphered, excepting for statements such as 'battle scenes', 'lion hunts', 'banquet scenes'... With the possibility of IVC glyphs being bronze-age weapons, there is a possibility that the enigma of the Mesopotamian glyphs may also be resolved... The recorded interactions (and transfers of goods and ideas) among people across Dilmun, Makkan and Meluhha (assuming they are Bahrain, Akkadia and IVC) are stronger than those with BMAC. Shouldn't a distinction be made between Hurrians (?Subarians) and the Mitanni kings or royal lineage? As Thieme notes, the list of gods and goddesses listed as witnesses in the Mitanni treaties include only 5 vedic gods; there are scores of divinities of the Hurrian and Hatti pantheon... "The intention in enumerating them obviously is to name as many divinities as there are: 'the male gods, the female gods, one and all, from the country Hatti; the male gods, the female gods from the country Kizzuatni; the gods of the nether world.' (KBo I 1 rev 51)...But in concluding a treaty it was essential to invoke as many gods as possible in order to cover the vastest area without leaving, perchange, a gap where a fugitive might obtain immunity." Each name in the treaty is preceded by the determinative (written, hardly spoken) ideogram dingir 'god' or dingir-mes' 'gods'. The toponymy (cf. Mayrhofer and Burrow) is vivid; the Mitanni prince was Mattiuaza, his father Tus'ratta and many more names which are meaningful Sanskrit compounds; the vedic gods might have been added in to connote the gods'list of the nobility, while the Hurrian gods were those of the 'Hurri people'. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Oct 31 16:17:42 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 08:17:42 -0800 Subject: [Re: SV: method of dating RV, III] Message-ID: <161227042137.23782.1832736387366707000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "> The main> basis for this hypothesis is the word marianna, supposedly IE and> supposedly meaning "aristocrat," or the like. The word appears> primarily in texts from the Hitttite capital, from Ugarit and Alalakh > in Syria, in Nuzi in northern Mesopotamia." > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal For facilitating further debate, let me site some lexemes which may provide some leads for analysing the word 'marianna': marya (metric mariya) = young man, stallion (RV); maryaka (RV); mara_k, mra_k boy; mare_k mere_ik = girl (Ash.); me_re_, medre = boy (Kt.); mair = ibex (Shum.); maristan = slave (Kho.); marista_n (Sh.)(CDIAL 9874 and 9894) [It is also debatable if the lexeme is influenced by mar-am = valour (Ta.); mar-van- = hero, commander, inhabitant of desert tract (Ta.)]. Cognate with mair = ibex (Shum): marai = sambar, Indian elk; mare = a kind of deer (Ka.); maru_ka = a deer (Skt.); marukan- = scion,member of a clan (Ta); merva, meriya = son's son (Pa.) Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From garzilli at SHORE.NET Sat Oct 31 10:34:43 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 11:34:43 +0100 Subject: IV Intl. Conf. on Dowry and Bride-Burning in India Message-ID: <161227042122.23782.3737287957317354566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * *IV International Conference on Dowry & Bride-Burning in India* Sponsored jointly by Harvard University (Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies) and International Society Against Dowry and Bride-Burning in India, Inc. (ISADABBI), the "Fourth International Conference on Dowry and Bride-Burning in India" will be held at Harvard University on December 5, 1998. Place: Boylston Hall, Harvard University Date: December 5, 1998 Time of Registration: 9:00 AM Registration Fee (includes lunch, donated by "Bombay Club", Harvard Square, Cambridge, Massachusetts): $5.00 for students, $15.00 for others. **Inauguration by Mrs. Maneka Gandhi, Minister of Social Welfare and** **Empowerment, Government of India** Conference Participants: Dr. Michael Witzel, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, USA Mrs. Vimi Verma, Sudbury, MA, USA Mr. Himendra Thakur, International Society Against Dowry & Bride-Burning in India, Inc., USA Dr. Arvind Sharma, McGill University, Canada (Tentative) Dr. Bishakha Sen, College of Business Administration, Orlando, FL, USA Dr. Vijayendra Rao, Brown University, Providence, RI, USA Dr. Bisraam Rambilass, Durban University, South Africa Dr. Sarla Patel, Shrewsbury, MA, USA Dr. Werner Menski, London University, UK Dr. Mahesh Mehta, Viswa Hindu Parishad, USA Dr. Julia Leslie, London University, UK (Tentative) Attorney Rani Jethmalani, New Delhi, India (Health permitting) Dr. Enrica Garzilli, Perugia University, Italy Attorney Manjaree Chowdhary, New Delhi, India Ambassador Naresh Chandra, Washington DC, USA (Tentative) Dr. Purushottama Bilimoria, Melbourne University, Australia Mr. Satya Agarwala, Rochester, NY, USA For details, please contact: Dr. Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts Telephone: USA-617-496-2990 Ms Carol Spitzer Department Administrator Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA Telephone: USA-617-495-3295 The Conference offers a privilege of meeting the new leadership of the Government of India. With the full support of the Cabinet of Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, Mrs. Maneka Gandhi has created history in her Ministry of Social Welfare and Empowerment. Just in six months since assuming office in March 1998, she has implemented 37 centrally sponsored schemes, upgraded the Rehabilitation Council of India Act, and successfully launched World's largest program for rehabilitation of the disabled with a Rupees 440 million national project called the "Bridge Course". We are very sincerely hoping that with her golden touch, we will be able to implement the plans and programs to save the lives of the dowry victims in India. The tragedy of dowry and bride-burning in India is as enormous as that of the land-mines which has horrified the world. It is now estimated that about 25,000 brides are killed or disabled every year in India over dowry disputes, which exceed the estimated 21,000 civilians killed or disabled in land-mine accidents every year all over the world. Moreover, land-mine accidents are NOT culpable homicides. Bride-burning is a culpable homicide, perpetrated by intimate members of the victims marital family, who do not display any sense of guilt. To understand, and to draw world attention to the problem, the "First International Conference on Dowry and Bride-Burning" was held at Harvard Law School in 1995. In this Conference, a "Six Point Program to Eradicate Dowry and Bride-Burning in India" was adopted, which was further revised at the "Second" and the "Third International Conference" held at Harvard and London University in 1996 and 1997, respectively. One of the major goals of the forthcoming "Fourth International Conference" will be to discuss and finalize the "Six Point Program" and make plans to lauch the "Program" in India next year. PRE-CONFERENCE PANEL DISCUSSIONS: A series of "Pre-Conference Panel Discussions" are planned to be held on November 8, November 22 and November 29, 1998, at 12:30 PM each day, at Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University, 2 Divinity Avenue (Rooms 213 & 214), Cambridge, Massachusetts, to discuss the "Six Point Program". Panel Discussion on November 15, 1998 will be held in Worcester, Massachusetts. For time & location, please contact Mr. Himendra Thakur at or at telephone USA-978-546-7354 on or before November 10, 1998. Panel Discussions on the "Six Point Program", "Legal Approach" and "Economic Approach" will be held on December 4, 1998 at Boylston Hall, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA, at 6:30 PM. There are no registration fee for Panel Discussions. However, it will be helpful if you contact Mr. Himendra Thakur at or at telephone USA-978-546-7354, at least five days before the date of the panel discussion. For a copy of the revised draft of the "Six Point Program to Eradicate Dowry and Bride-Burning in India", or for any other information about the Conference, please contact Mr. Himendra Thakur at or at telephone USA-978-546-7354. ******************************************************************** -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Sat Oct 31 18:17:57 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 12:17:57 -0600 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042139.23782.3759290232110838867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do have xdevng installed but it does not automatically use it. I can copy to Word and change the font then it is ok. I use IE 4 with outlook express. -----Original Message----- From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 6:34 PM Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Oct 31 11:39:26 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 12:39:26 +0100 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042124.23782.9291246274243746621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George: > In short, to my knowledge the 'conventional wisdom' recognizes these two > metrical systems as closely related. Closely related and identical is not the same. How do you and others explain the differences? You call the Av. system "more primitive". Does that mean the Ved. system is derived and innovated from a system identical to the Av. one? If yes, how did that innovation come about? Did the Ved. poets one day think: "Why don't we start worrying also about cadential quantitative rhythm"? Wasn't there any problem fitting the old supposedly shared formulas into the new metrical constraints? I'm used to thinking of a poetic tradition as something that closely associates various aspects of the poetic technique. Since in this case this small (but real) difference exists I was interested to hear the most common (even conjectural) account. > And what is it that seems misleading about the term "Indo-Iranian" in this > context? Well, under Yaroslav's assumption of the similarities being explained by a period of Indian & Iranian community in a "second Aryan homeland" I would think it is good to emphasize that you're not talking about the first period of Indo-Iranian community (before the split of IIr). From mcv at WXS.NL Sat Oct 31 13:25:31 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 13:25:31 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042127.23782.5339750680458348881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > It is not the first time that participants of the discussion refer to a >concept according to which Indo-Aryan words in Mitanni Hurrian were just >very old loan words from a forgotten language which had already been dead >for centuries, and that old notion that there were Aryans among Mitanni >ruling elite is wrong. Unfortunately I don't know the source of the concept >and how seriously it was argumented. All that I see is that it is, of course, >politically correct. My source is Michalowski, based primarily on Kammenhuber and D'jakonov. Here are two of Piotr's postings on sci.archaeology regarding the matter: Subject: marianna- Hurrian or IE? From: piotrm at umich.edu (Piotr Michalowski) Date: 1996/12/05 Message-ID: Newsgroups: sci.archaeology Since there has been much discussion of the supposed "Aryan aristocracy" in second millennium Western Asia, I thought it might be useful to provide a very brief discussion of the matter. The main basis for this hypothesis is the word marianna, supposedly IE and supposedly meaning "aristocrat," or the like. The word appears primarily in texts from the Hitttite capital, from Ugarit and Alalakh in Syria, in Nuzi in northern Mesopotamia. Already in 1910 it had been proposed that this word derived from Indic marya-, "young man," with the Hurrian ending -anne. This has been repeated many times, although there have been those who have not accepted this etymology. A full discussion with references can be found in Annelies Kammenhuber, Die Arier im Vorderen Asien (Heidelberg, 1968). Kammenhuber was also against this and cited Igor Diakonoff's private correspondence to her in which he proposed that the word was not a loan in Hurrian, but a native word, as demonstrated by Urartian mari- (Urartian and Hurrian are cognate languages from the same linguistic stock, according to Diakonoff and Starostin, East Caucasian). The fact that this was not a loan in Hurrian solved many morphological problems. Etymology aside, there is no evidence that marianna were the "aristocracy," and, indeed, the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary v. M defines the word simply as "chariot driver." It is also clear from personnel lists from Alalakh that m. were not at the top of the heap. In his Pre-history of the Armenian People (NY 1984) p. 37 Diakonoff writes: "It seems, though, that it is a mistake to assign the marianna (charioteers) to the aristocracy. And there is no evidence to suggest that the marianna were Indo-Iranians, as some scholars suggest." N. B. Jankowka also notes that the word is Hurro-Urartian, and adds, "Note also that the marianna were not a "feudal aristocracy"; they were palace personnel..." (Diakonoff, ed, Early Antiquity (Chicago, 1991) 244. For a full argumentation see Diakonoff, Die Arier im Vorderen Orient--Ende eines Mythos," Orientalia 41 (1972). Author: Piotr Michalowski Date: 1996/09/28 Forums: sci.archaeology In article <52jqhc$3dr at sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> S.NEMETH at IX.NETCOM.COM (Stella Nemeth) writes: >I have a question. If Mitanni Indo-Aryan was a dead language by the >time of the Hittites, what did the Mitanni who fought the Hittites >speak at the time of their war? I think that there is a bit of terminological confusion here. There were no people called Mitanni; that was the name of a state. It would appear from their writings that they were primarily Hurrian speaking. In fact, the longest Hurrian text that we have is a letter sent by Tushratta, the king of Mitanni, to the pharoah and found at Tell el-Amarna in Egypt. Some of the rulers of Mitanni had Indo-European names. There was a long discussion on the nature of these names and of IE loan words in Hurrian and the main agreement these days seems to be that this was not a living language at the time, but only remnants of previous contacts that certain Hurrian groups had with IE dialects elsewhere. The analysis of these words seems to indicate that this had nothing to do with the Anatolian branch of IE ("Hittite"), but with eastern dialects. I believe that I noted this before, but I will again. The classic statement of all of this is by I. Diakonoff, "Die Arier im Vorderen Asien--Ende eines Mythos," Orientalia 41, 1972. In English one can read his The Prehistory of the Armenian Peoples, Caravan Books, 1984. [...] ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Sat Oct 31 20:00:42 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 14:00:42 -0600 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042143.23782.15162202007729670957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, that works but it is quite a nuisance! You cannot even see html file unless you try to forward message, then double click it and it opens in Explorer, then view source coed in notepad. Then edit out
 and save and
close file. Then double click it again as html and it opens as devanagari.

Are you sending it in normal html?? do you have any other settings?? There
was a message on Indology about how to send devanagari files (even without
fonts) on INTERNET, did you read that?? I think this an  extremely important
concept to develop!! Thanks for working on it!!

Claude Setzer


-----Original Message-----
From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA 
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK 
Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: Testing devanagari script in e-mail


>Yes.  Mr.John Richard also reported that in Outlook Express
>xdvng part did not come out automatically. He says that if
>
 from the .htm file is removed it works. In Eudora light
>ver 3.0.6 and Netscape Message it can be read direcly without
>any clicking of the .htm file and xdvng part also is coming out
>correctly.
>
>regards,
>
>sarma.
>At 12:17 PM 10/31/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>    I do have xdevng installed but it does not  automatically use it. I
can
>>copy to Word and change the font then it is ok. I  use  IE 4 with outlook
>>express. -----Original Message-----
>>From:      
>>To:      INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>>Date:      Friday, October 30, 1998 6:34 PM
>>Subject: Testing devanagari      script in e-mail
>>
>>
>>
>




From mcv at WXS.NL  Sat Oct 31 14:21:27 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 14:21:27 +0000
Subject: Mitanni problem (Was SV: method of dating RV, III)
In-Reply-To: <19981031013244.496.qmail@www0l.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <161227042131.23782.8234039646831868729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"S.Kalyanaraman"  wrote:

>Meluhhans were in Sumer and needed an interpreter as evidenced by a cylinder
>seal (and perhaps, there was a Meluhhan colony too, cf. Parpola); why can't
>another hypothesis be explored? That some Vedic-speaking 'Proto-indians'
>migrated in the first second half of the third millennium, via the sea-route,
>i.e. from the Sindhu to the Persian gulf and upstream on the Euphrates to
>Mitanni, Bogazhkoi, carrying the tradition of cylinder seals with battle
>motifs, unicorns, ligatured animals, specialized horse-training Vedic
>vocabulary and Sanskrit names...

One would expect such a migration to have been noticed and recorded
by the Sumerians and Akkadians of Mesopotamia.  (Unless it happened
in the 50 years or so of Gutian rule, between tha fall of Sargon's
Akkadian empire and the "Sumerian revival" of Gudea of Lagash and Ur
III).

The Hurrians themselves, when they appear in the neighbourhood of
Mesopotamia c. 2200, are said to do so from the north and east.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 31 22:03:07 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 17:03:07 -0500
Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227042148.23782.1921775612155387554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-10-31 08:29:37 EST, mcv at WXS.NL writes:

 <>

In this discussion, following has not been discussed.

In "Two Recent Studies of Indo-Iranian Origins", JAOS, 115.3, (1995),
p.474-475, Igor M. Diakonoff says,
"Actually, there was no "Aryan" population or dynasty at Nuzi and Arraphe: all
"Indo-Aryan" names which are registered in Nuzi Personal Names (whence they
have been quoted by all subsequent scholars) belong to one Mitannian
detachment which fled to Arraphe (during a civil war in Mitanni) together with
the pretender Sattiwasa, and which disappeared together with him. Sattiwasa,
alone in a single chariot, finally met the Hittite king and concluded a treaty
with him (on the latter's consditions). This treaty is preserved  and is
witnessed by a multitude of both Hittite and Hurrian gods; the four "Indo-
Aryan" deities are mentioned near the very end of the huge list. Moreover, N.
B. Jankowska has pointed out that the charioteers in Arraphe (as well as in
the other kingdoms of that time) were not owners of the chariots after the
manner of feudal nobility, but servants of the king who received both the
chariots and the horses from the royal economy when required; and they were
very far from always being Aryans. The same can be observed in eighth-century
B.C. Urartu.

It is a pity that Ye. Ye. Kuz'mina found it impossible even to hypothesize how
the Indo-Iranians (and what sub-group of them) might have reached northern
Mesopotamia as early as the sixteenth century B.C., when the Indo-Aryans ought
to have had their hands full conquering Hindustan. In my opinion, there were
not two branches of Indo-Iranians but three, viz., Iranians, Dardo-Kafirs, and
Indo-Aryans. Those whom we meet in Mitanni are a stray group of Dardo-Kafirs
coming from their original home in the steppes of central Asia before the rest
of them were displaced to Pamir, Swat, and Chitral in the tenth and ninth
centuries B.C.
....

The last chapter of the book is a summing up of the evidence, showing that the
Andronovians were Indo-Iranians. The Federovians, insofar as they did not
migrate to Siberia, would be the ancestors of Indo-Aryans (in anthropological
terms, modern Indians are, of course, descendants also of the Proto-Dravidians
of Harappa, and so on)."

(My transliteration of some names may be incorrect.)

Any comments from the specialists?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Oct 31 18:54:47 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 23:54:47 +0500
Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail
In-Reply-To: <01be04fa$c933c1a0$0ecc91d0@cs>
Message-ID: <161227042141.23782.5841570337620980676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes.  Mr.John Richard also reported that in Outlook Express
xdvng part did not come out automatically. He says that if
 from the .htm file is removed it works. In Eudora light
ver 3.0.6 and Netscape Message it can be read direcly without
any clicking of the .htm file and xdvng part also is coming out
correctly.

regards,

sarma.
At 12:17 PM 10/31/98 -0600, you wrote:
>    I do have xdevng installed but it does not  automatically use it. I can
>copy to Word and change the font then it is ok. I  use  IE 4 with outlook
>express. -----Original Message-----
>From:      
>To:      INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Date:      Friday, October 30, 1998 6:34 PM
>Subject: Testing devanagari      script in e-mail
>
>
>




From janet at WALDZELL.DEMON.CO.UK  Thu Oct  1 09:35:34 1998
From: janet at WALDZELL.DEMON.CO.UK (Member of INDOLOGY (Janet@waldzell.demon.co.uk))
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 98 10:35:34 +0100
Subject: unicode
In-Reply-To: <01BDED19.35E1D5C0@dc2-modem1346.dial.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <161227041575.23782.9052225230086781061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date sent:              Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:50:11 +0100
Send reply to:          Indology 
From:                   "Th. de Bruijn" 
Subject:                Re: unicode
To:                     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

> -- On the subject of Unicode, does anyone have information on a
> keyboard remapper that is able to access the Unicode glyphs in
> Windows 95? (or, even better, OS/2?) The beta of the Titus-font I
> have does have all the glyphs, but they can only be used in Word97
> with Insert>Symbol, which is a hassle.
>
> TIA
> Thomas de Bruijn

Within the Word97 Insert>Symbol dialog box is a command button
labelled Shortcut Key... which allows you to allocate the symbols
to key combinations.

Regards
Janet Freeman
Janet