Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth?
hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU
Mon Nov 30 01:36:55 UTC 1998
David Salmon wrote:
> For those who have an interest in the Sarasvati River, I recommend the
> website http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/ organized by Dr. S. Kalayanaraman,
> particularly the article by Puri, VKM, and BC Verma, Glaciological and
> Geological Source of Vedic Sarasvati in the Himalayas, included there, as
> well as Dr. Kalayanaraman's own monograph, available on
> http://www.probys.com/sarasvati/ . Puri and Verma made a geological and
> glaciological survey of the most likely headwaters area for the Sarasvati in
> the Himalayas, and concluded that the area did feed the Sarasvati River.
> Earthquakes diverted half the water southward towards the Ganges, and the
> Sutlej changed course and eventually joined the Indus, essentially changing
Can someone please tell me the etymology of "Sutlej"?
> the Sarasvati to a seasonal river. The melting of the major glaciers that
> once fed the river and a reduction in monsoon run-off also reduced its flow.
This would make these stories about 10,000 years old or even older. Is
when the IE languages start to split?
The problem of the IE Urheimat is something that gets discussed all the
Every place from the Balkans to Central Asia has been suggested. I find
difficult to understand a few things;
1. The lower numerals (like 3,4,5) were apparently being developed in
Middle East/Sumeria around 3,000 BC. (see Denise Schmand-Bessarat, or
Diakanoff). But then circa 4500 BC a bunch of cattle-herders already
the integers (in decimal no less) up to a hundred! How is that possible?
2. These people ran over, invaded and sacked half the world on horses
carts but cart-wheels can't be made without wood or metals, and there is
no wood or metals in the areas from which the IEans issued because they
are from the steppes. Why isn't it likely that they got their carts made
in civilized areas and which had wood, like North of India or north of
3. There is evidence for people riding reindeer (see Crossley on the
during the "upper Paleolithic"(?). I recall thinking at the time that
be as far back as 25,000 ya or 10,000 ya. Now this area still had wild
Prezhawalski horses, thought to be the first horses domesticated and
transport, relatively recently. Now did these people who were riding
reindeer not think of domesticating horses for thousands of years? Isn't
it easier to catch horses riding other
animals than chasing them on foot in the treeless steppe?
4. Where are the metal working areas and mines? There is Cyprus, of
(for coppper), and tin mines in Anatolia whcih is what is needed for
Carthaginians/Phonecians were apparently going as far as the British
in search of tin at one time. This is likely after the tin mines in
ran out. So where are the tin and copper mines in the steppes which
cattle herders accidentally discovered and exploited to make cart
Smelting metal requires high temperaturs. Nomads could not even bake
the normal way. After the iron age, then made flat breads (pita), and
flat breads can be found in historical times to be made by nomads, like
Turkic nomads (pide), Afghan bread, Berber bread etc. Before that the
way to cook grains was to boil them in water, hence the foods like
'pirogi' are thought to be from Turkic (burek) and these are the modern
nomads. So if they can't even make a hot enough fire and bake bread how
did they get the metals needed to hold the wheels together so they could
go raiding the world?
5. Now finally the two articles from Science and Science News I already
wrote about. The glaciers starting melting then. One result was that
the ME, EAst Africa and Indian subcontinent got separated by natural
barriers whereas before that it was not so. Secondly, the Black Lake
got flooded by the rising sea levels and became a Sea and also flooded
seacoast probably burying whatever civilizations lived there.
So now it seems like all the evidence from every area is lined up
linguistic evidence, mostly from IEanists, using an intuitive method
most refuse to give up or allow others to improve, and yet based on it,
like Gimbutas claim to be able to tell us that their homeland was in the
Ukraine (a treeless steppe) or further north (closer to Gimbutas' home
IT is not surprising that others do not want to give up the honor of
hosted the 'Aryans'. How about working to create something more
First, the evidence from other branches of science have to be accounted
Secondly, the toy model of linguistic change and language evolution has
be given up for something more realistic.
> Puri and Verma appear to depend on archeological studies of cities built
> along the old Saravasti riverbid for dating of when this might have taken
> place. Certainly, the fact that the Rig Veda speaks both of the Sarasvati
> as a full-flowing river that ran to the sea, and later as a river that dries
> up in the desert, to say nothing of the cities and towns along its former
> banks, indicates strongly that an ancient but historical date for the change
> is appropriate. They suggest about 2450 B.C. for the first major loss of
> water and perhaps 1700 B.C. for the drying up of the river into its present
1. How about the possible sunken city off the Japanese coast? Why
have been sunk as a result of the rising sea waters? If so then human
goes back a lot further than the 5-6,000 years people seem to want.
2. Why all of a sudden this great interest all over the world in wanting
build tall, pyramidal shaped, stone structures? Did they think that by
able to go higher, and looking further they could see disaster
WAs it some volcanic eruption like Thera/Santorini?
> Other sources on these websites trace the river beyond its headwaters region
> through Rajasthan, Sind and Kutch to the sea. Others indicate that hundreds
> of new archeological sites have been found in the past two or three decades
> in this area, but almost all remain unstudied.
> The case for an ancient but historical Sarasvati is made objectively and
> scientifically and seems to me, a layman, to be unrefuted. (For the most
> part: Kalayanaraman's theory, thrown in for good measure, that soma was a
> gold-silver alloy called electrum, and that the references in the Veda to it
> bespeak the process of producing it, is less adequately explained and
> I think it is time to hear more from archeologists, and less from linguists.
> Do any belong to this list?
The biggest problem is that there seems to be no way to date metals.
knows where the bronze, iron items came from. Nobody even seems to want
know. At least I am not aware of anyone who has done any thorough
There is more to metals then what "style" they look like. They probably
different amounts of impurities in them, and may even contain hints of
different smelting and working techniques. Unfortunately some of these
tests are destructive. Maybe archaeologists and museums will learn
to part with small bits of metal objects to further the goal of science
to learn to polish them and keep them sparkling for visitors. Even the
oxidation may be important in attempting to date their manufacture date
my guess is that the only thing archaeologists think about is getting
polished and cleaned as soon as possible and then look at the drawings
so they can label them Greek, Latin, Scythian etc.
hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey
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