Paired Horse and PIE breakup
hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU
Fri Nov 6 06:19:50 UTC 1998
Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote:
> Both Western (North Pontic) and Eastern (Saka) Scythians spoke
> Iranian dialects which is attested by Greek and Indian written sources, by
> etymology of place-names and so on. Uralians, with the only exception of
I have been keenly interested in pursuing this but so far I have been
greatly disappointed. The main reason I was interested was to check on
some of what Miziev writes. Unfortunately, for some reason, people only
seem to talk about what others write about Scythians, and Sakas etc
but never seem to read anything of the original sources. If they do,
they seem to go to great lengths to hide their knowledge.
Miziev says that the Soviet scholars control Iranian studies and that
Iranists control Turkic studies and decide what can be written. Where
the sources (in English) in which these words from Scythian and other
early nomadic languages have been published and etymologized? would it
be interesting for everyone to have access to this?
This is especially interesting for me for various reasons. Among them is
a book by Tuna in which almost 200 words (naturally displaying regular
sound correspondences) between Turkic and Sumerian are shown. In
Miziev has a book in which he etymologizes some Scythian and other words
as also Turkic. It is hard to get at the truth when the original sources
are lacking. Maybe some people have been doctoring info. It is not
since we have all read about such doctoring even in recent years in
like biology, so it would not be unthinkable in fields like linguistics
was (unfortunately) so closely tied to politics.
> The Hungarians in the middle of the 1st century AD, were always forest
> hunters, not the steppe pastoralists. The same may be said about proto-Turks
> until 3rd century BC, when they came to the steppes from their forest
> Siberian homeland. What could these peoples have in common with the problem
> that we are now discussing: the emergence of the war-chariot in the western
> part of the Eurasian steppe in the beginning of the 2-n mill. BC?
That part sounds fictional considering the 165 Sumero-Turkic cognates.
I will leave out the fact that Suleymanov says this number is now about
> The word "Turanian" goes back to the Iranian epic, where it is
> used to designate the Eastern Iranian nomadic tribes. As far as I know,
> the word has nothing in common with "Turk" and related words.
That is also false. Romans called the Etruscans Tusci/Tursi. Turan was
a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ is the root for
birth and begetting in Turkic. That is not all. There is more, even up
to and including the idea that 'troy' was really 'tur' and the Greek
language created the consonant cluster. I posted a list of cognates
between Chuvash and Etruscan at one time.
> What is the "hard evidence" of Scythian culture among "Altaic and
> Uralic" tribes? Is there any evidence at all in favour of your point of
> view that Scythian's language was not Iranian? Will you kindly present it,
> it would be very interesting to learn what sources did you use.
> Best regards,
Here is something which I find remarkable (but maybe unrelated). There
a passage in Herodotus in which he describes the Scythians cooking a
by using its bones as fuel and putting the meat inside the stomach of
bull, and adding some water. There is a passage from Miziev in which
is a description of this from relatively recently, in which a pit is
a fire built, and the stomach of the animal (with the meat inside)is
put in the pit and cooked. Miziev uses this (like many scholars who try
to equate cultures and languages) as proof that Scythians were Turkic.
However, I looked around, and note that Turkic for digging is /kaz/.
This is one of the Tuna cognages between it and sumerian. The l~r
Turkic would have been /kar/. IT also happens (almost miraculously :-))
that the word for 'cooking pot' in Turkic is 'kazan', and the word
for stomach is 'karin'. It is quite easy to guess the rest. Furthermore,
the word 'kazak' means 'nomad'. Why from 'kaz' (to dig)? Why is the
word for cooking pot i.e. kazan (from 'kaz' meaning 'to dig'). And why
is the word for stomach 'karin'? To me it is now quite clear, especially
after seeing Tuna's book. It also explains why there are people north of
the Caucasus with the name "kashog" many centuries before they allegedly
In any case, since this is a list in Indology, it is not too far from
the mark to discuss "Sythians". Can someone who has access to the
original sources tell us how their words are said to be IE. I will
dig up a bad translation of Miziev's book(s) and post the words which
he etymologizes as Turkic.
hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey
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