From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Nov 1 02:15:26 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 18:15:26 -0800 Subject: Mitanni problem] Message-ID: <161227042154.23782.7882144322703528310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Probably already discussed to death, but what's the current thinking> on the equation mleccha = meluhha ?> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal I think the issue is still not completely dead; the nature of central trade or transtit point interactions among the dilmun, makan, and meluhha have still to be explained. A Pali word, melukka means copper. Maha_bha_rata does refer to the mleccha language, in an area close to Gujarat, perhaps the kacchi (Rann of Kutch), where a number of IVC sites have been found? Sarasvati river did flow through the Rann and the Nal lake right upto Lothal, in the early phases of IVC, it is possible that some sites such as Kotda (Dholavira) were islands. There was a series of exchanges in JESHO, when meluhha was also related to me_r-kku, west (Tamil). Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From mcv at WXS.NL Sun Nov 1 00:05:55 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 00:05:55 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042150.23782.4927130684320188670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: >I hope that now I could offer some suggestions of my own, not just repeat >old etymologies. For example, I would suggest now that the name vRddhAzva >does not mean "Having big horses" (as is commonly held) - but both >vRddhAzva "One whose horses are old" and tuzratta / duSratha "One whose >chariot is bad" (usually scholars add: "for his enemies") are specific >Indo-Iranian names with "magical function" Would you have the cuneiform (or possibly hieroglyphic, if from the Amarna archives) transcription of these names at hand? I would (for reasons outside Indological scope) be interested in knowing how /s'/ in is actually written. >Such scholars >as V.Toporov, V.Ivanov, T.Elizarenkova, G.M.Bongard-Levin, V.Livshits and >others consider still the Mitanni names and terms to be the trustworthy >evidence on the language of Proto-Indo-Aryans. Well, I don't think Igor' Mixajlovich is denying that. He is merely asserting that this vocabulary layer embedded in Mitanni Hurrian was quite possibly fossilized, and that it was no longer in living use by the time the Mitanni state was established c. 1500. He might also be denying that the vocabulary is specifically (Proto-)Indo-Aryan, but that it should rather be regarded as Proto-Indo-Iranian. That at least is my own preferred interpretation, if only because it would considerably simplify the picture of Indo-Iranian movements up to the 2nd millennium. (I might add here that T. Gamq'relidze and V.V. Ivanov, in "Indoevropejskij jazyk i indoevropejcy", reach the rather surprising conclusion that the "Mitanni Aryan" dialect is closer to Iranian than to Indo-Aryan). >First Russian princes of >Scandinavian origin - Ruerick, Oleg (Helgi), Igor (Ingvar), >Vladimir (Voldemar) were the Northmen by names and by their language/culture, >but the Kievan prince Yaroslav, my namesake and saint-patron, son of >Vladimir, not only bore a typical Russiav (Slavic) name but definitely >spoke and wrote good Old Russian - in spite of the fact that noble Vikings >from the West were still welcomed at his court. But since that time >Scandinavian names of courtiers and warriors in old Russian chronicles become >more and more rare, and soon disappear completely. Quite so. But this isn't always the case. The Visigothic rulers of Spain were still called Wamba, Witiza and Roderick (Rodrigo), long after the Gothic language was quite forgotten. And the Catalan names for "fox" ( and ) derive from two countesses called Winidhild and Wisila, whose mother tongue certainly wasn't Frankish. And there are still an awful lot of Russians called Oleg, Ol'ga or Igor'... > Lastly, one more objection to Kammenhuber and Diakonov's critique >of "Mitanni Aryan". The Indo-Iranian etymology of marianna/mariannu is not >to be discarded just because there is a related word mari- in Urartian. >One must add to it an Ingush (i.e., North Caucasian) word mar- 'man' >(traced to marya- by J.Harmatta) or Mari (Tcheremis) mari-, marij- >"man; noble" used by a small Finno-Ugric people in the Volga basin as their >ethnic name (now the Marij-El republic in Russia; the Indo-Iranian ethymology >of the word is generally accepted, see Joki 1974: 280). All these words >seem to point to the root of the supposed Proto-Indo-Aryan migration from >Volga and South Ural via Caucausus to Northern Iran. Urartu is just one more >link in the chain. Mari is (Indo-)Iranian without doubt. I reserve judgment on the Ingush word (Is it just Ingush or Chechen / Dagestanian as well? Does *mari- occur in Scytho-Ossetic?). I frankly prefer the Indo-Iranians going round the other side of the Caspian, from the Volga/Urals through the Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan steppe (where we have the Proto-(Indo-)Iranian Andronovo culture in the 2nd and attested East Iranians in the 1st millennium) and making contact with the outposts of Near Eastern and Harappan cultures just south of the Amu Darya river maybe as early as 3000 BC. I can't exclude the Caucasus route, of course, but I think it rather less likely (and gorazdo goristee -- rather more mountainous). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Sun Nov 1 00:32:12 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 00:32:12 +0000 Subject: Mitanni problem In-Reply-To: <19981031160212.12534.qmail@www0d.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227042152.23782.8529039211706001835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "S.Kalyanaraman" wrote: >The identification of Dilmun, Makan and Meluhha >is also an open question (cf. Kramer identifying Dilmun with IVC); Probably already discussed to death, but what's the current thinking on the equation mleccha = meluhha ? ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From pawe3u at USA.NET Sun Nov 1 05:47:36 1998 From: pawe3u at USA.NET (=?utf-8?Q?Pawe=C5=82_Ulbrych_=28Poland=29?=) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 05:47:36 +0000 Subject: "Apne-apne Raam" Message-ID: <161227042155.23782.7849605589577308778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm badly looking for anybody who read Bhagvan Sinh's "Apne-apne Raam". I need also some info about the idea of the state and society in Valimiki's "Ramayana". Thank you very much ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 1 15:04:05 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 07:04:05 -0800 Subject: Mitanni problem] Message-ID: <161227042159.23782.7946274258536830308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There was a series of exchanges in JESHO, when meluhha was also >related to me_r-kku, west (Tamil). I think that meluhha and mERku (Tamil for west) are not related. mERku is west specifically in Tamil. Not in any other Dravidian language, I think. Because for Tamilnadu, it is direction of high elevation. Western ghats is to the West of Tamilnaadu. mERku comes from mEl (high, up, rising, ..) So, Tamils coined mERku as direction of rising elevation. Similarly, kizakku (east in tamil) comes from "kiiz" which means "low, under". Tamils coined kizakku for east, because low-lying lands are in TN in the east. (eg., Kaveri). Old Tamil words for east and west are kuNakku and kuTakku respectively. For Malayalis, West is not "high or rising" direction. In fact, Western direction is sloping downward. That is why they call west at paDiJaaRu (= paTi JaayiRu, sunset direction) rather than mERku (< mEl, tamil). The ancient tamil terms for directions is very well utilized in coining Tamil terms applying sandhi rules for wind from cardinal directions. 'tal' is wind in Tamil. (I don't know if it comes from 'taL, taLLu = push'.) 1) wind from east: kuNakku + tal => koNTal 2) wind fron south: teRku + tal => ten2Ral. Wind from north (vaTakku) is termed vaaTai and wind from kuTakku is termed kOTai. Any comments? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Sun Nov 1 12:14:54 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 07:14:54 -0500 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042157.23782.16244363365185713852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been following the discussion, wanting to join in, but I have not had time to refresh my memory or read the new references given. So I will simply ask the questions I have. 1) Drews assumes that PIE-speakers invented the chariot. But the records of the >Old< Hittite kingdom show that horse drawn vehicles were used in battles both by them and their enemies before 1700 BCE. So, why should we not put chariots to the time before Hittites split from the rest of IE, rather then after they did, but before the rest split up? [Of course the whole question of who invented the chariot remains. I don't wnat to start that up again except to say that I still haven't seen any answers to the old objections to the view of IE or I-Ir speakers did so all by themselves.] 2) The Kikkuli text has `panza' for five. This implies that both the I and II palatalizations and the merger of a/e/o were complete well before 1400 BCE. Does Drews say anything about this? 3) Regarding the occurance of `Varuna' in the well-known treaty: The actual text reads urvan(n?)assil, with another version reading arunassil. urvana and varuna cannot both be traced to the same PIIr word [wrwa should be syllabified (in Sans. letters) as v.rva]. Diakonoff says that the development w- > zero is not knwon in any of the relevant languages. [Which is one reason why he rejects the idea that Mittani rules were proto-Indian.] And then there is the suffix ssil: Why were they swearing by ``those of Urvana, those of Mitra'', instead of just by Varuna and Mitra? What is the explanation of all this according to those who claim that Mittani's were ruled by a proto-Aryan dynasty? [Yes, I have read Thieme's 1960 JAOS paper. He relegates the first objection to a footnote, without any further discussion and leaves the second to experts in Near Eastern languages.] 4) Archaeologists tell us that there was trade contact between the steppes and the Kopet Dagh area in the Neolithic times, becoming rare (unimportant?) during the Namazga IV/V periods and then picking up again after the `collapse' of urbanism. If we put IE speakers in the Caspian-Aral area in 3000 BCE, shouldn't we expect some of them to turn up in points south before 2500 BCE? 5) IA sounding names of kings of Mittani and Kassites were throne names. The birth names were not IE. If they were still speaking an IA dialect, why was this uniformly so? These are all these I can think of at the moment. If I think of any others, I will be back. Otherwise, I will thank all those who answer in advance and go back to lurking. -Nath From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Nov 1 15:20:19 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 07:20:19 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III and Mitanni Message-ID: <161227042161.23782.10554763998653408100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyanatha Rao wrote:> 3) Regarding the occurance of `Varuna' in the well-known treaty:> The actual text reads urvan(n?)assil, with another version reading> arunassil. urvana and varuna cannot both be traced to the same PIIr> word [wrwa should be syllabified (in Sans. letters) as v.rva]. Diakonoff> says that the development w- > zero is not knwon in any of the > relevant languages. [Which is one reason why he rejects the idea that > Mittani rules were proto-Indian.] And then there is the suffix ssil: > Why were they swearing by ``those of Urvana, those of Mitra'', instead > of just by Varuna and Mitra? What is the explanation of all this > according to those who claim that Mittani's were ruled by a > proto-Aryan dynasty? > >I will thank all those who answer in advance> and go back to lurking. Before you go back to lurking, let me cite some specific issues: The actual texts have: u-ru-ua-na-as'-s'-el, a-ru-na-as'-s'i-il The s's'il/s's'el follow mitra and varun.a (or, arun.a). The guess by J. Friedrich, Orientalia, vol. 12, p. 316 was that this suffix may be a (grammatical) duality of each name (how relate to Hurrian s'in? meaning 'two'). -na is explained as Hurrian plural-indicating particle -na (Spieser). It would be interesting to know if s's'il/s's'el occur in othe contexts in the Hurrian documents. The next issue is why two forma are used for Varun.a; can this somehow be treated as variants (apart from il, el variants) and related to Hittie aruna- meaning 'sea'? In the context of the four names which are clearly vedic, and the sea-trade across the Gulf with wherever mleccha or meluhha was, would it be an unreasonable surmise to equate aruna with varun.a (sea-god)? On toponymy of ruler's names being in Sanskrit constructions, was there a tradition to give a different name after anointing a prince to be a ruler in the Near East or in Vedic India? On the taxi- or chariot, what is the take on the link between the onager-drawn solid-wheel chariot of Mesopotamia and the chariots further northeast? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Sun Nov 1 13:05:29 1998 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 08:05:29 -0500 Subject: Typing Devnagari Message-ID: <161227042188.23782.14465905759443862378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Charles Poncet wrote: > Works absolutely fine for me perhaps because I have both sans12.ttf > font and Xdvng installed. > I wish TYPING in Devanagari was that simple because all available > software seems to be unable to recognise that some people do not type on > American or English language keyboards. I use a French keyboard and sure > enough I have to guess where to find the anuswara and the like because > all indications in the manual are wrong !! This is very frustrating > indeed. > If anybody has a bright idea how to solve that problem I will be very > grateful > Charles Poncet > Pardon me for repeating the following information. But there are two existing solutions around this problem. One is to use the ITRANS scheme which uses ordinary transliterations for encoding the material. You don't need any fancy keystrokes. The Itranslator developed by the folks at the Omkarananda Ashram will open two windows, let you type ITRANS notation in one and see the output in another. Once created, the devnagari file is fully portable. The site for this public domain utility is: Omkarananda Ashram If you are more used to word-type processing, then I recommend the simple macros by John Richards also available in the same site. They don't need ITRANS scheme, but you can type transliterated letters followed by a control sequence to create ligatures. Both these solutions are for the Windows' world! For unix etc. the ITRANS or TeX/LaTeX are still my choices! As a sample, let me illustrate how the sample > Ay< inj> praeveit g[na l"ucetsam!, > %darcirtana< tu vsuxEkk quMbkm!. > is encoded in ITRANS. It is simply: ayaM nijaH paroveti gaNanA laghuchetasAm | udAracharitAnAM tu vasudhaikakuTumbakam || -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishna at TICNET.COM Sun Nov 1 20:15:36 1998 From: krishna at TICNET.COM (Krishna Susarla) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 14:15:36 -0600 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042165.23782.6309482086052556618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Works absolutely fine for me perhaps because I have both sans12.ttf font and Xdvng installed. Where can one obtain the Sanskrit fonts mentioned above? -- K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Sun Nov 1 21:55:48 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 15:55:48 -0600 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042168.23782.7747796228836067101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can you please tell us what you did to the message??? The original did not show up on my computer as Devanagari, but your response copy shows up fine!! Claude Setzer -----Original Message----- From: Charles Poncet To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Works absolutely fine for me perhaps because I have both sans12.ttf font and Xdvng installed. I wish TYPING in Devanagari was that simple because all available software seems to be unable to recognise that some people do not type on American or English language keyboards. I use a French keyboard and sure enough I have to guess where to find the anuswara and the like because all indications in the manual are wrong !! This is very frustrating indeed. If anybody has a bright idea how to solve that problem I will be very grateful Charles Poncet DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: This is a test message. All the people who have sans12.ttf font installed should be able to see the sloka below in devanagari script. Ay< inj> praeveit g[na l"ucetsam!, %darcirtana< tu vsuxEkk quMbkm!. This one if you have xdvng.ttf installed Ay:? en:j:H p:r:?v:?et: g:N:n:a l:G:?c:?t:s:am:?. udarc:ert:an:a? t:? vas:?D:?kk?X?mb:km:?/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 2 03:10:57 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 19:10:57 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042176.23782.2168631092566918107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> O. Szemer'enyi, Structuralism and Substratum - Indo-Europeans and Semites in the Ancient Near East, Lingua, 13, 1-29, 1964 Szemer'enyi investigates the exceptions to the rule that PIE phonology is built on a 5-vowel system. Noting that both Sanskrit and Avestan use a 3-vowel system, he says that this is adopted from the Semitic languages of Mesopotamia. Is this accepted by Indo-Iranianists? Does the Kikkuli text also show that Aryans should have been in Mesopotamia before they entered India? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thompson at JLC.NET Mon Nov 2 02:12:03 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 21:12:03 -0500 Subject: I-I metrics (was SV: method of dating RV, III) Message-ID: <161227042172.23782.2039908655215758056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Jacob Baltuch's questions: > >Closely related and identical is not the same. How do you and others >explain the differences? You call the Av. system "more primitive". Does >that mean the Ved. system is derived and innovated from a system identical >to the Av. one? If yes, how did that innovation come about? Did the Ved. >poets one day think: "Why don't we start worrying also about cadential >quantitative rhythm"? Wasn't there any problem fitting the old supposedly >shared formulas into the new metrical constraints? I'm used to thinking of >a poetic tradition as something that closely associates various aspects of >the poetic technique. Since in this case this small (but real) difference >exists I was interested to hear the most common (even conjectural) account. > Jacob, Meillet's comparison of early Vedic and early Greek meters makes it tempting to assume that the Vedic metrical system is rather close to an early IE metrical system [which might be reflected also in early Slavic and Irish metrics]. It is hard to determine the exact relationship between old Vedic and old Avestan metrics for the simple reason that we do not have a very big sample of old Avestan. Besides the Gathas attributed to Zarathustra, there is only the collection called the Yasna Haptanhaiti, which is in 'rhythmic prose', or strophic structures [cf. Watkins, *How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics*]. That being the case, it is hard to tell whether Zarathustra's metrics is typical or atypical of old Iranian poetics. It is also hard to tell whether Z's 'primitive' syllable-counting metrics represents an older, conservative stage of IE metrics, or whether it is itself an innovative development from an older metrical system represented by old Vedic. The questions that you ask are interesting, but I for one am unable to see how one can legitimately answer them. Perhaps the list's ziSTas can. Of course, one can see that there is a great deal of interest in metrical issues in Vedic, starting from RV speculations [very interesting in themselves] about meter. There is good evidence in Vedic of a metrical mysticism that attributes great spiritual significance to meter. As far as I can tell, there is not very much of this in Avestan. But I don't claim to know whether the one or the other is a truer illustration of the IE state of metrical affairs. Nevertheless, the close relationship between Avestan and Vedic metrics, it seems to me, is beyond dispute, even if not entirely clear. My guess is that the Vedic situation is more conservative in this regard, but that's just a guess. Best, George From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 1 16:16:20 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 21:16:20 +0500 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail In-Reply-To: <01be0509$239897c0$14cc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227042174.23782.1475717760494862733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:00 PM 10/31/98 -0600, you wrote: >There >was a message on Indology about how to send devanagari files (even without >fonts) on INTERNET, did you read that?? I think this an extremely important >concept to develop!! Thanks for working on it!! > >Claude Setzer I think that I missed that or forgotten about it. Please let me know if you have saved the letter. Right now you can use Omkar ITRANSlator 1.2 beta to convert english + sanskrit file to html format and send it. For Sans12.ttf part of my posting I used the file generated by ITRANSlator. To that I added the xdvng.ttf part with the help of a "HTMLed" editor. But you can also use Sri Avinash Chopde's "webitrans.zip" pakage to produce the .html file. That also can be sent as an attachment in e-mail with the option "Put text attachments in the body of the message" and it will be displayed as a normal letter with out any necessity of clicking the .html file. regards, sarma. From carlo at PRAETOR.CH Sun Nov 1 20:48:46 1998 From: carlo at PRAETOR.CH (Charles Poncet) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 21:48:46 +0100 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042163.23782.10847523577915631453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Works absolutely fine for me perhaps because I have both sans12.ttf font and Xdvng installed. I wish TYPING in Devanagari was that simple because all available software seems to be unable to recognise that some people do not type on American or English language keyboards. I use a French keyboard and sure enough I have to guess where to find the anuswara and the like because all indications in the manual are wrong !! This is very frustrating indeed. If anybody has a bright idea how to solve that problem I will be very grateful Charles Poncet DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > This is a test message. All the people who have sans12.ttf font > installed should be able to see the sloka below in devanagari script. > > Ay< inj> praeveit g[na l"ucetsam!, > %darcirtana< tu vsuxEkk quMbkm!. > This one if you have xdvng.ttf installed > > Ay:? en:j:H p:r:?v:?et: g:N:n:a l:G:?c:?t:s:am:?. > udarc:ert:an:a? t:? vas:?D:?kk?X?mb:km:?/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcv at WXS.NL Sun Nov 1 21:59:27 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 21:59:27 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <199811011214.HAA03140@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227042170.23782.17649590114115264032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: >3) Regarding the occurance of `Varuna' in the well-known treaty: >The actual text reads urvan(n?)assil, with another version reading >arunassil. urvana and varuna cannot both be traced to the same PIIr >word [wrwa should be syllabified (in Sans. letters) as v.rva]. Diakonoff >says that the development w- > zero is not knwon in any of the >relevant languages. I'm not sure Akkadian counts as a relevant language, but w- > zero is common there. The lack of an adequate way of writing /w-/ in cuneiform script (Sumerian didn't have w- either) is certainly relevant. Hurrian and Hittite had to resort to the sign PI for /w/+any vowel (occasionally used in Old Akkadian to denote wa/we/wi/wu), in Hurrian often in ligature with other signs, e.g. PI+a = wa; to the sign MI for /wi/ (in later Akkadian, -m- > -w- between vowels, so M-signs could be used to render /w/), or (Hittite only, I think) the sign G~ES^TIN "wine" (Hitt. wiyana) also for /wi/. The most common solution was to use the vowel sign U or U2 (u2-a-tar = watar). >4) Archaeologists tell us that there was trade contact between the >steppes and the Kopet Dagh area in the Neolithic times, becoming rare >(unimportant?) during the Namazga IV/V periods and then picking up >again after the `collapse' of urbanism. If we put IE speakers in the >Caspian-Aral area in 3000 BCE, shouldn't we expect some of them to >turn up in points south before 2500 BCE? Possibly. But how would we know? ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 2 07:17:15 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 23:17:15 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042180.23782.11973643854521320544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > >4) Archaeologists tell us that there was trade contact between the > >steppes and the Kopet Dagh area in the Neolithic times, becoming rare > >(unimportant?) during the Namazga IV/V periods and then picking up > >again after the `collapse' of urbanism. If we put IE speakers in the > >Caspian-Aral area in 3000 BCE, shouldn't we expect some of them to > >turn up in points south before 2500 BCE? > > Possibly. But how would we know? Maybe I'm having a mental block, but isn't the oldest evidence of IE in this region (Media, N. Persia) the Achamenian cuneiform inscriptions from around 600 BCE? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From mcv at WXS.NL Mon Nov 2 05:02:36 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 05:02:36 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <19981102031058.26338.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042178.23782.5683582695725202838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > O. Szemer'enyi, Structuralism and Substratum - Indo-Europeans >and Semites in the Ancient Near East, >Lingua, 13, 1-29, 1964 > >Szemer'enyi investigates the exceptions to the rule that >PIE phonology is built on a 5-vowel system. Noting that >both Sanskrit and Avestan use a 3-vowel system, he says >that this is adopted from the Semitic languages of >Mesopotamia. I don't think that'll work. Proto-Semitic had indeed a 3x2 vowel system (long and short *a *i *u), but North and East Semitic clearly already had /e/ and /e:/, and probably /o/, /o:/ as well (can't be sure for Akkadian, because of the defective writing system in thi respect). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 2 13:29:44 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 05:29:44 -0800 Subject: Sri and Aphrodite Message-ID: <161227042190.23782.1164868563887332160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominique, Can you please tell about the similarities between Sri and Aphrodite? (Your work in B. Sergent). When I read the Tamil TirukkuRaL (5th century) and Kamban's epic (9th or 11th century), I find certain concepts uniquely Dravidian for Sri. These characteristics will be there for Sri in Sanskrit. Sure that Sivaramamurti, Vasudha or P. Kumar's latest book would have said something more. Regards, N. Ganesan Aside: Thanks for your comment on 'meluhha is not mERku' writeup. You asked about elephants and copulation once. In Ciivaka cintaamaNi, an 8th century Jaina epic in Tamil, (also called as 'Book of marriages', maNa nuul), there is a very beautiful poem on this. will give it soon. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 2 13:50:32 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 05:50:32 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042192.23782.8740254264846828568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As to NWC-Europe, it is true that at approximately the right time (c. >3000 BC) an important cultural change took place, whereby the earlier >seemingly egalitarian and largely vegetarian society of the Neolithic >(LBK, TRB cultures, etc.) was replaced by a more hierarchic, >meat-eating, milk-drinking and male-dominated society (Corded Ware >around the Baltic c. 3000 BC, Bell Beaker in Central Europe, >spreading to France, Britain, Spain and Italy c. 2500 BC). But there >is no sign of migrations or invasions. Dear Dr. Vidal, Can you please explain this IE characterstic more? What are the basic publications on this? Read that IVC was more egalitarian and only ancient civilization to do so; no king's tombs found, not much of social hierarchy, ... As far as India, can I take this to be hierarchic -> varna theory meat-eating -> beef in vedic; am'sala 'fatty' meat ('tender' in Eggeling's translation) milk drinking -> cow's prominence in the veda (IVC gives importance to oxen, NO cow on seals!) male-dominace -> Goddess is a minor deity in Vedic. Her importance grows in later Hinduism. (Pinchman, The rise of the Goddessin Hindu tradiion) Any corrections? additional references? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thillaud at UNICE.FR Mon Nov 2 08:09:15 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 09:09:15 +0100 Subject: Mitanni problem] In-Reply-To: <19981101150406.25418.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042182.23782.6295202186346061463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I think that meluhha and mERku (Tamil for west) are not >related. ..... >Any comments? >N. Ganesan Even not knowing any Tamil nor Dravidian, a great pleasure to read a clear and simple demonstration ;-) Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Mon Nov 2 08:36:06 1998 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof P Kumar) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 10:36:06 +0200 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042184.23782.10192279710600948878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, This is not directly a contribution to the on-going discussion on Method of dating RV. I have been following the discussion with great interest being an indologist myself. But I am requesting this as the Director of the International Association for the History of Religions (IAHR) taking place in Durban in the year 2000. The topic on "Method of Dating RV" seems quite fascinating and I am wondering if any one you would like to present a symposium on the above topic at the IAHR congress in Durban. It seems to me that many others in the field of religion will be very interested in the latest developments on RV discussions. If there is some interest in this regard, I would like to request you to let me know. I will be happy to explain the procedure of the submission of proposals for symposium at the IAHR congress in Durban. Looking forward to hearing from you all. Pratap Prof. P. Kumar (Head of Dept) Department of Science of Religion University of Durban-Westivlle Private BagX54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work) Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr From mcv at WXS.NL Mon Nov 2 12:15:55 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 12:15:55 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <363D5C7B.42AA688F@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042186.23782.17648523241065887858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Maybe I'm having a mental block, but isn't the oldest evidence of IE in >this region (Media, N. Persia) the Achamenian cuneiform inscriptions >from around 600 BCE? Depends on your definition of evidence. There is indeed direct evidence from the Achaemenid inscriptions starting sometime before 500 BC. Strong indirect evidence from Mesoptamian records mentioning Medes and Persians for the first time in the 9th c. BC. Weaker archaeological evidence for contuinity in Western Iran back to the start of the Iron Age, c. 1400 BC. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Nov 2 20:36:08 1998 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 12:36:08 -0800 Subject: H-ASIA: Sumitra Mangesh Katre (1906-1998) Message-ID: <161227042198.23782.3188442316552976091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H-ASIA November 2, 1998 Sumitra Mangesh Katre (1906-1998) ----- Ed. note: As noted earlier on H-ASIA, S. M. Katre died October 21. I am very grateful to Robert Goldman of the University of California, Berkeley for preparing this obituary notice. F.F.C. ************************************************************************** From: Robert Goldman Sumitra Mangesh Katre 1906-1998 The community of Indological scholars and Indo-Aryan linguistics will note with tremendous sadness the loss of Professor Sumitra Mangesh Katre who died on October 21, 1998 at the Good Samaritan Hospital in San Jose, California. He was 92 years old. Dr. Katre was born on April 11, 1906 in Honavar, North Kanara District of what was then the Bombay Presidency (today Karnataka State). He completed his schooling at the Ganapathy High School in Mangalore where he obtained his S. S. L. C. in 1923. He then studied at Government College in that city completing his Intermediate degree in Arts and Science in 1925 before going on to Presidency College, Madras where he earned his B. A with Honors in Mathematics in 1928, a degree deemed equivalent to the M. A. in 1930. After graduation Dr. Katre turned to what would probe to be the consuming intellectual passion of his life, the study of Indo-Aryan languages and linguistics. He attended the School of Oriental and African Studies of the University of London where he received his Ph. D. in 1931 for his dissertation entitled "Early Buddhist Ballads and their Relation to the Older Upanishads," a work that inspired a number of scholarly essays on Pali and Middle Indic which he published during the '30s and 40's. Two years after receiving his doctorate, Dr. Katre was appointed Professor of Sanskrit at Wadia College in Poona. Subsequently he served as Professor of Sanskrit at Sir Parashuram College in Poona from 1937-39 before being appointed in 1939 as Professor of Indo-European Philology at the Deccan College, an institution with which he would remain deeply involved until his retirement in 1971. During the course of his long and distinguished career at the Deccan College he served as its Director from 1942-1971, the Director and General Editor of the Sanskrit Dictionary Department (1951-1971), Director of the Language Project (1954-1960), and Director of the Centre of Advanced Study in Linguistics (1964-69.) After his retirement Dr. Katre's reputation as an outstanding scholar and teacher assured that he would be in great demand. Accordingly, he served as a Professor in the Department of Oriental and African languages and Literatures at the University of Texas at Austin, where he had earlier served twice as a Visiting Professor (in 1966 and 1970) from 1971 to 1976 and as a Distinguished Visiting Lecturer at the California State University at Fullerton in 1978-79. He was an active member of numerous scholarly societies and institutes including the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain, the Societe Linguistique, the Linguistic Society of American, the American Oriental Society, the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, and the Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute. He was a member, also, of the Linguistic Society of India an organization in whose reorganization he was the prime mover and which he served at various times in the capacities Treasurer and President. Dr. Katre was the recipient of many scholarly awards and distinctions noteworthy among which are his appointments as the Wilson Philological Lecturer at the University of Bombay (1941-42), the Pratibha Devi Memorial Lecturer at the University of Gauhati (1957) and Special Officer of the American Institute of Indian Studies. During the course of his long and productive scholarly career Dr. Katre authored hundreds of scholarly articles and monographs which have, collectively, vastly enriched our understanding of the languages and linguistics of North India. In addition to his contributions to the study of Pali and other Middle Indic languages, and the comparative and historical linguistics of Indo-Aryan, he turned his scholarly attention to the study of his native language, Konkani, producing several noteworthy articles and a major treatment published both as articles and in book form on the Formation of Konkani. Later on in his career Dr. Katre turned his scholarly attention increasingly to the study of the great ancient grammarian, Panini and his immortal grammar, the Ashtadhyayi. In 1967 he published his Paninian Studies including an alphabetical index of Panini's sutras, the Dhatupatha and an alphabetical listing of its verbal roots. In the following year he published his useful Dictionary of Panini in three parts. His fascination with this seminal work culminated in the 1987 publication of his complete translation and indexing of the Ashtadhyayi itself, an immensely useful work that runs to more than 1300 pages. Dr. Katre was also an editor of a Festschrift, a volume of Indological studies presented to Professor P. V. Kane on the occasion of the latter's sixty-first birthday and was himself similarly honored by his friends, colleagues, and disciples with a two part Katre Felicitation Volume representing volumes 29 and 30 of the journal Indian Linguistics and presented to him on his sixty-fifth birthday in 1971. He also served as and editor of several important scholarly periodicals including The New Indian Antiquary, the Oriental Literary Digest, the Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute and Indian Linguistics. Of all of his numerous contributions to the study of Indian languages and linguistics, perhaps none will, in the end be as enduring as his visionary work in the conception and organization of the massive Dictionary of Sanskrit on Historical Principles. Without his prodigious intellectual, organizational, and administrative skills, this immense project, which he first envisaged in the 1940's and over whose development he presided for two decades as Director and General Editor would never have seen the light of day. Dr. Katre will perhaps be most warmly remembered by American Indianists in his role as the longtime Director of the Deccan College during the period when the American Institute of Indian Studies was, through his generous spirit of institutional and scholarly cooperation, headquartered on its campus. In that capacity he frequently served as a sponsor and mentor for young American Sanskritists and linguists and many of us fondly remember his warmth, his gentleness and his generosity with his time and his extraordinary learning. He was respected and loved by his faculty, staff and students so that even now, more than a quarter of a century since he retired, older scholars at the Deccan College still speak fondly of the era of his Directorship almost as a kind of Krita Yuga. His loss will be keenly felt by many of us around the world. Dr. Katre is survived by his two daughters, Mrs. Padma Savur of San Jose, California and Ms. Lalita Katre of Pittsburg, California as well as his beloved grandchildren, Sameer and Sheela and a great-grandson, Rishi. Funeral services were held on Saturday, October 24, 1998 at Oak Hills Cemetery in San Jose. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Chairman, Center for South Asia Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 ======================================================================= From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Mon Nov 2 18:49:18 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 13:49:18 -0500 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042195.23782.130935977922963000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >[regarding w] I know little about cuniform and depend on transliterations. But I guess the point is that other words that are from I-Ir/IA relating to Mittani (such personal names or -wartana in the Kikkuli text) show no such loss of w/v. Diakonoff wants to see Yama in urvana, via Iranian urvan, soul. This can be waved away pointing out that in Vedas, Varuna is also connected to death. But the claim that Mittanis were specificaly IA becomes weaker. That is all I was trying to point out. [I wrote] > > If we put IE speakers in the > >Caspian-Aral area in 3000 BCE, shouldn't we expect some of them to > >turn up in points south before 2500 BCE? > > Possibly. But how would we know? We won't, unless centum traces in Bangani turn out be real :-) -Nath From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Nov 2 20:15:43 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 14:15:43 -0600 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <199811021849.NAA18431@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227042196.23782.9560532868680731506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >[I wrote] >> > If we put IE speakers in the >> >Caspian-Aral area in 3000 BCE, shouldn't we expect some of them to >> >turn up in points south before 2500 BCE? >> >> Possibly. But how would we know? > >We won't, unless centum traces in Bangani turn out be real :-) > If I remember right..Zoller states that the Bangani speakers claim that they came from the northern direction from Kashmir. Zoller believes that they could be connected to the Tocharians (Note on Bangani). Hopefully, we will know more about the Tocharians in the coming years. Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Mon Nov 2 14:21:50 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 14:21:50 +0000 Subject: Announcement: CSX+ fonts for the Macintosh Message-ID: <161227042193.23782.10554273369158024814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Summer of this year I built a set of high-quality freeware fonts implementing the CSX+ (enhanced CSX) encoding: there are CSX+ versions of Times, Helvetica, Courier, Palatino and New Century Schoolbook. Conversion from PC to Macintosh format presents problems, and so I produced only the Times fonts in Mac versions; what is more, I ran into unexplained technical problems which prevented me from grouping them as a proper font "family", allowing one to switch simply between the Roman, Italic, Bold and Bold-Italic faces. Peter Haunert kindly volunteered to make Mac versions of all the fonts, and these are now available (except for Courier, which will follow in a few weeks). I believe that he has also solved the font-family problem, so even those who have already downloaded the earlier version of Times may now prefer to acquire the new one. These new Mac fonts -- and their PC equivalents -- are available from my website: connect to http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html and follow the "fonts" link. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 2 22:54:10 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 14:54:10 -0800 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III Message-ID: <161227042200.23782.10911422596612192162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1) Drews assumes that PIE-speakers invented the chariot. But the >records of the >Old< Hittite kingdom show that horse drawn >vehicles were used in battles both by them and their enemies before >1700 BCE. Not only Drews. Anthony also writes years after Drews. (Also, Anthony writes that PIE as a language existed after 3500 B.C. and the breakup could be as late as 2000 B.C.. He also places much emphasis on technical innovations (chariots) for the spread of IE). In her critique, Mary Littauer calls Sintashta chariots (2000 B.C.) are 'proto'chariots because it is possible that they lacked yoke saddles. They predate Neareastern chariots, ( Littauer, The origin of the true chariot, 1996). So far, absolutely no evidence of chariots earlier than Proto-IIr. ones. Or, is it something that I am missing? Regards, N. Ganesan From Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12) Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European languages and archaeology. David W. Anthony. <<<<<<<<<<<<< However, at about 2000 BC a new and remarkable archaeological culture appeared east of the Urals, apparently at least partially derived from a late Yamna variant (the Poltavka culture) on the middle Volga. This new group, the Sintashta-Petrovka culture, established compact, heavily fortified settlements in the northern steppes east of the Urals; engaged in bronze metallurgy on an unprecedented scale; raised herds of cattle, sheep, and horses; and practised complex mortuary rituals that parallel in many specific details the Aryan rituals described in the Rig-Veda (Anthony & Vinogradov 1995 ; Gening et al. 1992; Kuzmina 1994: 226-8; Parpola 1995). Vehicles, buried in the richer Sintashta-Petrovka graves, as they had been earlier in Yamna graves, now included spoke-wheeled chariots, buried with two-horse chariot teams. Recent AMS dates of 2000 BC have established that these are the oldest directly dated chariots (or, some would argue, proto-chariots) in the ancient world.(2) It is likely that Sintashta-Petrovka represents the ancestral Indo-Iranians, whose traditions were later carried into India and Iran. >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Nov 3 03:22:43 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 19:22:43 -0800 Subject: [Re: SV: method of dating RV, III] Message-ID: <161227042202.23782.18428349932788195147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12)> Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European> languages and archaeology. David W. Anthony. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<< > However, at about 2000 BC ... the Sintashta-Petrovka culture, > established compact, heavily fortified settlements in the northern > steppes east of the Urals; engaged in bronze metallurgy on an > unprecedented scale; raised herds of cattle, sheep, and horses; > and practised complex mortuary rituals that parallel in many specific > details the Aryan rituals described in the Rig-Veda (Anthony & > Vinogradov 1995 ; Gening et al. 1992; Kuzmina 1994: 226-8; Parpola > 1995). Vehicles, buried in the richer Sintashta-Petrovka graves, > as they had been earlier in Yamna graves, now included spoke-wheeled > chariots, buried with two-horse chariot teams. Recent AMS > dates of 2000 BC have established that these are the oldest > directly dated chariots (or, some would argue, proto-chariots) in the > ancient world.(2) It is likely that Sintashta-Petrovka represents > the ancestral Indo-Iranians, whose traditions were later carried > into India and Iran. Would appreciate additional references to archaeological reports related to the bronze metallurgy finds in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture and the rationale for the comparisons with the "aryan rituals described in Rigveda". Any reference to soma? Do the metallurgical finds compare with artifacts found in Mesopotamia or IVC? Any seals or inscriptions? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Nov 3 03:43:47 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 19:43:47 -0800 Subject: Sintashta (Was: SV: method of dating RV, III) Message-ID: <161227042203.23782.11767353646565334733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall be grateful for help in getting a copy of the following paper presented in the 4th annual meeting of European Association of Archaeologists, held at Goreborg, Sweden, September 23-27, 1998: Grigoryev S. A. (Russia) The Sintashta Migration from Near East and some Questions of Indo-European Origins Thanks and regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Nov 3 03:55:21 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 19:55:21 -0800 Subject: [Sintashta (Was: SV: method of dating RV, III)] Message-ID: <161227042205.23782.7773321463111828563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following link may be of interest: it is an abstract of a lecture on Simtashta-Arkaim Culture, presented at UCAL, Berkeley, April 1998, by Dr. Ludmilla Koryakova, Ural State University: http://www.csen.org/koryakova2/Korya.Sin.Ark.html Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Nov 3 04:06:37 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 20:06:37 -0800 Subject: Sintashta (Was SV: method of dating RV, III) Message-ID: <161227042207.23782.10078803171543051599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following link may be of interest: it is an abstract of a lecture on Simtashta-Arkaim Culture, presented at UCAL, Berkeley, April 1998, by Dr. Ludmilla Koryakova, Ural State University: http://www.csen.org/koryakova2/Korya.Sin.Ark.html "Many interpretations have been suggested in relation to this site - a military fort,proto-city, or a ceremonial and religious center. The latter hypothesis appears reasonable, if we bear in mind that the sets of artifacts excavated were not characteristic of everyday usage. More plausible are the interpretation put forward by researchers who regard sites such as Arkaim as combination of administrative and ceremonial centers. Possibly this was a location where about 1,000 to 2,000 people?aristocracy (and craftsmen) gathered periodically to perform rituals". I wonder why the term 'rituals' is used (and not, some economic activity? It will be nice to see further details in archaeological reports on what artifacts were unearthed and what crafts were practised at Arkaim. If I may venture a hypothesis: If the assembled craftsmen at Sintashta-Arkaimian were working with fire, may be, they were working with metallic ores? (Say, with soma, electrum!) Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM Tue Nov 3 06:31:05 1998 From: rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM (Ralph Bunker) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 22:31:05 -0800 Subject: Looking for Vedic texts Message-ID: <161227042209.23782.73374203653648290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, Does anyone know where I can get hold of any of the following texts? Do any of these texts have other names or not exist at all? Please e-mail me if you can help. Thanks, --ralph A. zikSA vyali zikSA vedasUtraparibhASA zikSA amarezI zikSA B. kalpa mAnava gRhyasUtram hiraNyakezIya gRhyasUtram kAThaka gRhyasUtram agnivezya gRhyasUtram nidAna zrautasUtram kAThaka zrautasUtram jaimini zrautasUtram vAdhUla zrautasUtram puSpa zrautasUtram vasiSTha zrautasUtram anupAda zrautasUtram hiraNyakezIya dharma sUtram vaikhAnasa dharma sutram zAGkhalikhita dharma sUtram prajApati dharma sUtram vasiSTha dharma sUtram zaGka dharma sUtram nArada dharma sUtram hiraNyakezIya zulbasUtram mAnava zulbasUtram vArAha zulbasUtram maitrAyaNIya zulbasUtram vAdhUla zulbasUtram kAThaka zulbasUtram bhAradvAja zulbasUtram nakSatra zulbasUtram zAnti zulbasUtram AGgirasa zulbasUtram C. jyotiSa SaT paJcazikha muhurta cintAmaNi D. sthApatya veda vizvakarma vAstu zAstra manuzyAlaya chandrikA asumad bheda vAstu zAstra kAmikAgama sUkSmAgama yogajAgama chintyAgama ajitAgama dIptAgama sahasrAgama aMsumANAgama suprabhedAgama vijayAgama nizvAsAgama svAyambhuvAgama analAgama vIrAgama vimalAgama bimbAgama prodgItAgama lalItAgama siddhAgama santAnAgama sarvoktAgama kiraNAgama E. AraNyaka maitrAyaNI AraNyaka kaTha AraNyaka sAmaveda AraNyaka F. brAhmaNa vaMza brAhmaNa kaTha brAhmaNa saMhitopaniSad brAhmaNa chAndogyabrAhmaNa paiGgi brAhmaNa maitrAyaNIya brAhmaNa bhallava brAhmaNa From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 3 07:03:02 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 07:03:02 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <199811021849.NAA18431@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227042212.23782.12336170546330536274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: >I know little about cuniform and depend on transliterations. But I >guess the point is that other words that are from I-Ir/IA relating to >Mittani (such personal names or -wartana in the Kikkuli text) >show no such loss of w/v. Yes. From what I have seen, they tend to show w/v = cuneiform . >[I wrote] >> > If we put IE speakers in the >> >Caspian-Aral area in 3000 BCE, shouldn't we expect some of them to >> >turn up in points south before 2500 BCE? >> >> Possibly. But how would we know? > >We won't, unless centum traces in Bangani turn out be real :-) Ah yes, I had completly forgotten about (Pre-)Bangani. That might indicate IE speakers at an even earlier date (Tocharians preceded Indo-Iranians into Central Asia). Has anybody ever tried to read the IVC script as Tocharian :-) ? ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 3 07:29:32 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 07:29:32 +0000 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <19981102135032.14001.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042214.23782.17845041947386711442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >>As to NWC-Europe, it is true that at approximately the right time (c. >>3000 BC) an important cultural change took place, whereby the earlier >>seemingly egalitarian and largely vegetarian society of the Neolithic >>(LBK, TRB cultures, etc.) was replaced by a more hierarchic, >>meat-eating, milk-drinking and male-dominated society (Corded Ware >>around the Baltic c. 3000 BC, Bell Beaker in Central Europe, >>spreading to France, Britain, Spain and Italy c. 2500 BC). But there >>is no sign of migrations or invasions. > >Dear Dr. Vidal, > >Can you please explain this IE characterstic more? What are the basic >publications on this? In the context of the IE homeland problem, Mallory "In Search of the Indo-Europeans", especially pp. 243-257. Also Renfrew, "Archaeology and Language", for a completely different view. About the changes that took place regarding meat and milk, less tendentiously called the "Secondary Products Revolution", see A. Sherrat "Plough and Pastoralism: aspects of the secondary products revolution", in: Hodder/Isaac/Hammond, "Patterns of the Past", 1981. About the "Old European" culture (mainly in the Balkans), Gimbutas' "The Mother Goddess" (or something like that, can't find the ref.). Mallory gives a reference to Barker, "Prehistoric Farming in Europe", 1985, which might have more details on the northern European LBK/TRB/Corded Ware cultures, but I haven't seen it. A good overview of the relevant period in Europe, with more references, are chps. 5, 6 and 7 of Champion/Gamble/Shennan/Whittle, "Prehistoric Europe", 1984. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Nov 3 14:59:29 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 08:59:29 -0600 Subject: SV: method of dating RV, III In-Reply-To: <3648a8f8.231113928@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227042224.23782.1732726395977861360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:03 AM 11/3/98 GMT, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > >Ah yes, I had completly forgotten about (Pre-)Bangani. That might >indicate IE speakers at an even earlier date (Tocharians preceded >Indo-Iranians into Central Asia). Has anybody ever tried to read the >IVC script as Tocharian :-) ? > Lookup harapppa.com at http://www.harappa.com/script/danitext.html For Dr. Agha Hassan Danis comments SIVC An Agglutinative Language ? On the other hand, I have been talking to Prof. Parpola that certainly this is an agglutinative language, there is no doubt. That has been accepted by all of us. Dravidian is an agglutinative language. But at the same time Altaic is an agglutinative language, and certainly we know that there was a connection beween Turkmenistan [in Central Asia] and this region. Turkmenistan is a region where Altaic languages are spoken. Even in the pre-Indus period we have a connection. In what we call the Kot Diji period, we have a connection between Indus Civilization and excavations in Turkmenistan. So if we insist on an agglutinative language being used inthe Indus period, why not connect it with Altaic, rather than just with Dravidian? Why not connect it with Sumerian, which is also an agglutinative language? In fact, when I was in Korea, I found that their language is agglutinative, which I did not know before. Just because of agglutinative language, it is not necessary that it is connected with Dravidian. But unfortunately, our history has been so written in the time of the British that earlier we tried to trace out history from the Aryans, and we thought that before the Aryans were Dravidians, that was the idea. So when the Indus Civilization was discovered, it was thought if it is not Aryan, it must be Dravidian, that was the general assumption. But it is not necesssary. *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 3 17:33:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 09:33:52 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042232.23782.7548456743877855360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paired Horse and PIE breakup **************************** Sintashta chariots are the World's earliest chariots. They are dated to 2000 B.C. Littauer calls them protochariots. Archaeology shows the Sintashta culture to be proto-Indo-Iranian. (the mortuary rituals, one burial of a man whose head was removed and replaced with that of a horse along with Yama's flute at his feet, Rig vedic motifs, ..) In Roman horse sacrifices, called October Equus, the right-sided horse of the paired team in chariots was sacrificed. Both in Indian asvamedha and Roman ritual, the right side horse of paired draught was sacrificed. Also, the IE culture over a vast area exhibits divine horse-twins myth which should have come about only after horses were used in draught. Homer gives "Indian style" description of chariot races. If PIE had broken up long before 2000 B.C., then chariots must have spread though diffusion to India, Greece, Rome and Ireland. I agree on this possibility. But, why then the rituals and myths of the Paired Horse are ALSO found both in the East and West??? It is highly unlikely that diffusion works here over several thousand miles at such an early date. Parallels between Roman and Indian ritual where paired draught horse is used shows that Late Common IE must have been closer to their eastern wing: the Sintashta PIIr folks. The IE horse myth and ritual spread from a compact area when PIE just starts to break up or, having split few centuries earlier. Texts are dated by looking for clues of latest dates, not for their earliest dates. This happens for dating the oldest IA text, Sanskrit Rig Veda and for the oldest Dravidian text, Tamil Tolkaappiyam. Why would it be different for PIE breakup dates? The latest evidence for PIE being in a compact area is at 2000 B.C. (not 5000 B.C.) May be the 'pottery' changes, may be 'milk drinking' habits ,... We think that they are IE specific or some other culture and attribute much earlier dates. I don't understand 'linguistic distance' between Celtic and Sanskrit (being a structural dynamicist). But books say IE were small percentage who imposed elite dominance over the resident large populations. Typically, the percentages are 10% for IE and 90% natives. But in India and Ireland, the natives are so different, and that difference may be what we observe in 'linguistic distance' too. Substratum influences may account for 'linguistic distances'. But the Indic azvamedha and Roman equus have so close similarities that ought to have come from a common, compact area. People from that area started to spread out after the use of horses in pairs. David Anthony, Shards of Speech, 1995, Antiquity, v. 69 "Terms for wheel, axle and draft pole, and a verb meaning 'to go or convey in a vehicle' suggest that PIE existed as a single language after 3500 B.C., when wheeled vehicles were invented. PIE must have begun to disintegrate before 2000 B.C.: by 1500 B.C. three of its daughter languages - Greek, Hittite and Indic - had become quite dissimilar. Altogether, then the linguistic evidence points to a homeland between the Ural and Caucasus mountains, in the centuries between 3500 and 2000 B.C." The lower limit of Anthony's breakup date is 2000 B.C. When I think of 1) the parallels of horse slaughter in Vedic India and the distant Rome and 2) the archaeological date (2000 B.C.) for chariotry's beginnings, that also points to the same PIE breakup date (may be 2500 B.C., may be as late as 2000 B.C.) Any comments, please? With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Nov 3 14:53:04 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 09:53:04 -0500 Subject: Kusunda et al. Message-ID: <161227042222.23782.14457103600072550486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-11-03 04:27:16 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << Brah has some exclusive cognates with Kur-Mlt. be:/be:k 'salt', marg 'horn'; >> DED 3864 has "Ta. maruppu horn of a beast, elephant's tusk, part of a lute, branch of a tree, horns of a crescent moon, ginger" along with Kur., Malt. and Br. cognates. Regards S. Palaniappan From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 3 10:35:36 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 10:35:36 +0000 Subject: Kusunda et al. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19981103143250.24679dc8@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227042218.23782.2569715397359237304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Bh.Krishnamurti" wrote: >>Phonological environments? > >The phonological environments of the sound changes involving PD *k and *c in >Kur.-Mlt.-Brah. are atypical and they are retained as such in all the three >lgs. Sharing of atypical phonological environments in independent >developments is unexpected [Ruhlen below is wrong]. Such environments >remaining the same after 2000 years is also rare. What is most crucial is >*v- to b- which was an IA sound change of Eastern and Central lgs. By their >location all three ND lgs got influenced by this areal sound change. This is >one of the arguments that Brahui speakers moved to N-W from east India. >Because, the IA lgs that surround it now, Punjabi, Sindhi and Lahanda >retained OIA *v. Brahui has many words with b- that it borrowed from Persian >and Arabic. But where does it get the change of Drav. *w- becoming b-? It >shares this with Kur.-Mlt. Maybe it's because I'm Spanish, but I don't think w > v > b is unexpected at all: it's rather commonplace. The changes k > x (except before i) and c > k (before u) are natural enough (the front vowel prevents spirantization ( b, as rather strong evidence of a Northern Dravidian group. But I still don't understand how that proves the direction or the date of movement. If I understand the argument about the phonological enviroment properly, I take it that neither Proto-North-Dravidian *i(:) nor *u(:) have changed since the two sound laws took place (although I see that Zvelebil in the EB claims that: "Compared to the reconstructed system of Proto-Dravidian phonemes (distinctive sounds), the most striking developments in vowels are the gradual elimination of the contrast between e and e: (long e) and o and o: (long o) in Brahui, as a result of the influence of Indo-Aryan languages or Iranian or both; the raising of Proto-Dravidian *e and *o to i and u and the lowering of these protolanguage sounds in Brahui"). But even if the Brahui vowels had not changed, such a thing would not be amazing. The pattern /a/ /e/ /i/ /o/ /u/ can be remarkably stable: we know that Basque (except for the Souletin dialect) has not changed its vowel system one bit in at least 2000 years. >>>From hat? From the absence of Indo-Aryan loans? From that Brahui >>>is more closely connected to N. Drav.? > >Who said there are no IA lws in Brahui? Wrong!--Bh.K. Not me. >To the best of my knowledge no body has seriously examined the closeness >between Kur-Mlt and Brahui. Maybe Elfenbeim did, but I have not read his >articles. I have hit on some linguistic evidence which points to their >being together until about a millennium ago. The change of *v- to b- is a >Middle Indic change. I do not know the date but it would be around >800-1000CE. [Kannada in the SD also has PD *w- to b- which is dated to the >7th century. But it was an independent development unrelated to IA change. Exactly... >Marathi and Konkani, Kannada's neighbours do not share the change of v to b. >This evidence does not help in saying that Brah also did the same thing!]. Why not? If it's independent in Kannada (or Spanish), so it can be in Brahui. >Brah has some exclusive cognates with Kur-Mlt. be:/be:k 'salt', marg 'horn'; >The future morph -o: and the past -k is shared by all the three, and no >others. That's additional evidence for North Dravidian. It doesn't tell us where and when such an entity existed. Andronov (I think) derived his dates (6000 ~ 5000 years) for the split between Brahui and (North-)Dravidian from glottochronology, which we all agree is suspect. But is the divergence between Brahui and Kur-Mlt really consistent with a separation of a mere 1000 years ("800-1100 CE")? Language families at such an extremely shallow time depth (e.g. Romance [c. 2000 y.] or Tamil-Malayalam [< 1500 y.?]) are not usually controversial. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Nov 3 18:47:33 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 10:47:33 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042234.23782.15849970658849200045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > > The lower limit of Anthony's breakup date is 2000 B.C. > When I think of 1) the parallels of horse slaughter in > Vedic India and the distant Rome and 2) the archaeological date > (2000 B.C.) for chariotry's beginnings, that also points to > the same PIE breakup date (may be 2500 B.C., may be > as late as 2000 B.C.) > > Any comments, please? > The big problem is that the spread of ritual or technology doesn't necessarily coincide with mass migrations of people. Take, for example, the presence of Islam in Indonesia, or Tibetan Buddhism in the United States. Let's consider the cuneiform inscriptions of Persia. Are these part of the same migrations that brought the Vedic peoples to India? If so, why don't they have a script similar to that used with Sanskrit? Did they ever have such a script? If we accept that the Ashokan and related scripts came from the "Middle East" and are related to Phoenician-type scripts, how did these vault over to India and when? And if Vedic peoples came from Ural and Caucasus mountain region (or the Caspian-Aral one) how did they come about using a phonetic script rather than cuneiform (given a lower limit of 2000 BCE for the PIE breakup). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Nov 3 06:04:45 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 11:34:45 +0530 Subject: GIFT COPIES OF THE HISTORY OF MARATHI GRAMMAR Message-ID: <161227042211.23782.2882755811349539710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> November 3, 1998 Dear Members, Sorry to have forgotten to give my postal address in my posting in the Indology list re-posted below for convenience. The address is Prof. K. S. Arjunwadkar Devanginee, 1192 Shukrawar Peth Pune 411 002, India OR Prof. K. S. Arjunwadkar Anandashram Samstha 22 Budhwar Peth Pune 411 002, India Now even those from your acqaintances who do not have e-mail facility can contact me. Sincerely, KSA >Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:04:11 +0530 >From: "K. S. Arjunwadkar" >Subject: History of Marathi Grammar (in Marathi)...Free copies > >>From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" > >Oct 30, 1998 > >Dear Members, >Of the many works I have authored in the area of linguistic study of >Marathi, I wish to gift 25 copies of the History of Marathi Grammar (in >Marathi) to academic/educational institutes and individuals interested in >this study, -- to ensure the survival and knowledge, and facilitate the >study, of this subject and work in places where Marathi is spoken and/or >studied. > >This work, published in 1992, is the product of a devoted study of more >than 20 years, and covers the history of the subject of about 7 centuries >from its beginnings in 14th century upto a recent work published in 1990. >It reviews 109 small and extensive works on the subject divided in suitable >groups; and discusses in its epilogue the strong and weak points of the >tradition as well as the scientific lines on which it should proceed. > >Those interested can contact me on the e-mail address given above. > >Best wishes. >KSA From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Nov 3 16:47:35 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 11:47:35 -0500 Subject: Looking for Vedic texts -Reply Message-ID: <161227042226.23782.9793292022560169091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Bunker, That is quite a list you have given. Before you request others to help you, you might help them avoid wasted effort by specifying: 1. Where are you (what city or institution, so that others might be able to suggest what aids you might find nearby)? 2. What reference books have you already consulted? 3. What online resources have you consulted (e.g. OCLC, RLIN, online catalogs of individual libraries)? 4. Have you talked with your local reference librarian? Also, on a first glance this strikes me as an odd list, containing both well known works and ones I don't recall hearing of (not that the latter is any great proof of anything). Is this a list someone put together and published? If so, telling us the source might help to understand it. (E.g. there was a fellow in the 30s in Mysore who claimed to have recovered many lost works by rishic vision, a few of which were published but most supposedly remain in manuscript.) Or is it a list you have put together of references in various texts, original or secondary sources? Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4714 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The usual disclaimers apply. From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 3 13:17:09 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 13:17:09 +0000 Subject: Kusunda et al. In-Reply-To: <364dccfb.240334614@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227042220.23782.8602270164334414496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >"Bh.Krishnamurti" wrote: etc. Oops, I hadn't noticed the switch in mailing lists... For puzzled Indology members, I should explain that this was a discussion on the Nostratic list about Kusunda, a (recently extinct, it seems) language of Nepal, which, together with Nahali and Burushaski, is one of the three language isolates [single languages or small language families which have not been shown to be related to any other language] on the Indian subcontinent (four if we count Andamanese). In that context, Jacob had mentioned Elfenbein about Brahui, and had subsequently consulted prof. Krishnamurti. My response had gone to the Nostratic list, and I thoughtlessly failed to add prof. Krishnamurti to the recipient list, for which I apologise. I hope that clears it up. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 3 22:12:36 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 14:12:36 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042240.23782.941595529710811180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The big problem is that the spread of ritual or technology doesn't >necessarily coincide with mass migrations of people. Take, for example, >the presence of Islam in Indonesia, or Tibetan Buddhism in the United >States. Never said mass migration of people. Books say IE were 10% and natives 90%. Let us reduce it further: 5% and 95%. Without a core of people these things won't travel. This is true even today when a multitude of technologies available to spread the message. But in those days??? Horse sacrifice rituals match in many specific details that it is highly unlikely that they diffused from India to Rome intact. Islam spread to Southeast Asia because of the growth in Arab sea-borne trade/traders. Before Muslims, Indian traders, mainly from the South and East India took their religions,first Hinduism and then Buddhism to Southeast Asia. D. T. Suzuki, his guru established Zen first. Have seen Dalai Lama touring USA. After 1959, a need was felt to study Tibetan buddhism. watched little buddha movie, Richard Gere, ... A core group of trained Lamas are working for Tibetan Buddhism in US. >Let's consider the cuneiform inscriptions of Persia. Are these part of >the same migrations that brought the Vedic peoples to India? If so, >why don't they have a script similar to that used with Sanskrit? Did >they ever have such a script? In India, writing came much later (after Asoka). This is true for today's scripts barring IVC writing. Vedas were transmitted orally for many centuries and committed to writing much later. Indo-Iranian movements happened one thousand years before. >If we accept that the Ashokan and related scripts came from the >"Middle East" and are related to Phoenician-type scripts, how did these >vault over to India and when? And if Vedic peoples came from Ural and >Caucasus mountain region (or the Caspian-Aral one) how did they come >about using a phonetic script rather than cuneiform (given a lower >limit of 2000 BCE for the PIE breakup). IA movements and writing are vastly separated in time. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 3 22:19:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 14:19:24 -0800 Subject: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042241.23782.6523027273742901830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I see a slight logical problem here. The claim that Sintashta >chariots >are the World's earliest chariots should be modified to a statement >like this: "Sintashta chariots are the earliest chariots to be found >in the World YET." Or something to that effect. Yes, Dr. Fosse's point is well-taken. But, Littauer calls these to be 'proto' chariots. True chariots are only 1800 B.C. Sintashta chariots are evolving towards true ones. So, the archaelogical finds can at best go back few centuries before 2000 B.C. (say 2500 B.C.) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Nov 3 09:53:38 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 14:53:38 +0500 Subject: Kusunda et al. Message-ID: <161227042216.23782.6318208466338466744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I give brief replies to the comments and questions of Dr. Vidal; --Bh.K. At 04:36 02/11/98 GMT, you wrote: >jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (Jacob Baltuch) wrote: > >>I asked Prof. Bh.Krishnamurti about Joseph >>Elfenbeim's paper and he authorised me to quote his response freely. >>He said: > >>>I have not read that particular article but I have glanced through the >>>chapter on Brahui that he wrote in Rutledge's The Dravidian Languages, >>>edited by Sanford Steever. I agree with him fully on his hypothesis that >>>Brahuis moved from Central or East India westward around 800-1100 CE and was >>>not a relic of the early Drav migration in 4000 BC. I have not seen his >>>arguments. I have strong linguistic grounds to support it. Brahui shares >>>with Kurukh and Malto three phonological innovations: *k > x/#__ all V >>>except i and i:; *c > k/#___[u, u:, *w > b/#__. The phonological >>>environments still remain in tact in all three lgs. which would not have >>>been possible, if Kur-Mlt and Brah seperated two thousand years ago. > >Phonological environments? The phonological environments of the sound changes involving PD *k and *c in Kur.-Mlt.-Brah. are atypical and they are retained as such in all the three lgs. Sharing of atypical phonological environments in independent developments is unexpected [Ruhlen below is wrong]. Such environments remaining the same after 2000 years is also rare. What is most crucial is *v- to b- which was an IA sound change of Eastern and Central lgs. By their location all three ND lgs got influenced by this areal sound change. This is one of the arguments that Brahui speakers moved to N-W from east India. Because, the IA lgs that surround it now, Punjabi, Sindhi and Lahanda retained OIA *v. Brahui has many words with b- that it borrowed from Persian and Arabic. But where does it get the change of Drav. *w- becoming b-? It shares this with Kur.-Mlt. >I don't have much on Brahui, and nothing really on Kurukh-Malto, but >here's what I've got. > >G.L. Campbell in the "Compendium" (based on Andronov): >"[Brahui] seems to have been separated from the mainstream of >Dravidian, about 3 or 4,000 years BC, before the latter embarked on >on the southward migration to India" > >Enc.Brit. (by Kamil Zvelebil): >Between 2000 and 1500 BC, there was a fairly constant movement of >Dravidian speakers from the northwest to the southeast of India, and >about 1500 BC three distinct dialect groups probably existed: >Proto-North Dravidian, Proto-Central Dravidian, and Proto-South >Dravidian. The beginnings of the splits in the parent speech, >however, are obviously earlier. It is possible that Proto-Brahui was >the first language to split off from Proto-Dravidian, probably during >the immigration movement into India sometime in the 4th millennium >BC, and that the next subgroup to split off was Proto-Kurukh-Malto, >sometime in the 3rd millennium BC" > >Ruhlen's "Classification" gives the subgroupings: > >Konow (1906): >Dravidian - Brahui > - Central & South (incl. K-M) > >Zvelebil (1974): >Dravidian - North > - Brahui > - Kurux-Malto > - Central > - South > >Andronov (1978): >Dravidian - Brahui > - Dravidian proper > >McAlpin (1981): >Dravidian - Brahui > - Dravidian proper > >Ruhlen paraphrases McAlpin: "Brahui & K-M do not constitute a valid >genetic group. The evidence supporting this grouping (i.e. Emeneau >1962) was scant from the start, and the principal sahred innovation >linking the two was shown during the 1970's to be independent" > Not correct--Bh.K. >>Miguel asked: > >>>How on earth does that follow? > >>From hat? From the absence of Indo-Aryan loans? From that Brahui >>is more closely connected to N. Drav.? Who said there are no IA lws in Brahui? Wrong!--Bh.K. None of the above authors gave a single argument for the breaking away of Brahui from PD as the first branch. Does it preserve some very archaic PD features? If so what? All this speculation arose from Bray's apriori guess in his second vol. (1934), Part II: The Brahui problem (pp.1-43). Please read the last sentence of the last paragraph: "The Brahui riddle like the riddle of the Indus languages remains unsolved. How dramatic, if both were solved together." (p.43) To the best of my knowledge no body has seriously examined the closeness between Kur-Mlt and Brahui. Maybe Elfenbeim did, but I have not read his articles. I have hit on some linguistic evidence which points to their being together until about a millennium ago. The change of *v- to b- is a Middle Indic change. I do not know the date but it would be around 800-1000CE. [Kannada in the SD also has PD *w- to b- which is dated to the 7th century. But it was an independent development unrelated to IA change. Marathi and Konkani, Kannada's neighbours do not share the change of v to b. This evidence does not help in saying that Brah also did the same thing!]. Brah has some exclusive cognates with Kur-Mlt. be:/be:k 'salt', marg 'horn'; The future morph -o: and the past -k is shared by all the three, and no others. Zvelebil's map of the spread of the Dravidian lgs from NW (a beutiful diagram indeed) taken from Andronov of 1971 represents a pure fantasy! Still the SD branch is the most conservative of the Drav. family; for this there is linguistic proof. Sorry for the Nostratic theory! > >I meant the latter. That Brahui is more closely connected to K-M >does not imply that Brahui is a recent arrival from the east. K-M >might be a recent arrival from the west. Or both could be arrivals >from some center. And most importantly, there may not be anything >anything recent about it. The reasons are given above. >But now that you mention it, the complete[?] absence of IA loans kind >of rules out a 800-1100 CE migration from Central India, I'd say. There are IA loanwords in Brahui, scores from Sindhi, Jatki, Punjabi, etc. I haven't looked for those from Bihari and Bengali (not shared by the above IA lgs.) Maybe we can find some. That is not my present concern. >I have just discovered Sergej Starostin's website at >. Apart from etymological data >on N.Caucasian, Sino-Tibetan, Yeniseian, Chukchi-Kamchatkan and >Altaic, it also offers an online Dravidian database based on Burrow & >Emeneau's Dravidian Et. Dictionary. If I had the time, I'd try to >find out how close Brahui and Kurux-Malto really are (compared with >PDrav, PCDrav or PSDrav). Please do. I have already looked at this aspect. Bray discusses much of it in vol.2 >======================= >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal >mcv at wxs.nl >Amsterdam > > > ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 Telephone:40-7019665 From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Nov 4 00:13:44 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 16:13:44 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042243.23782.11898931986460054099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > >The big problem is that the spread of ritual or technology doesn't > >necessarily coincide with mass migrations of people. Take, for example, > >the presence of Islam in Indonesia, or Tibetan Buddhism in the United > >States. > > Never said mass migration of people. Books say IE were 10% > and natives 90%. Let us reduce it further: 5% and 95%. > > Without a core of people these things won't travel. > This is true even today when a multitude of technologies > available to spread the message. But in those days??? > Horse sacrifice rituals match in many specific details > that it is highly unlikely that they diffused from India to Rome > intact. > > Islam spread to Southeast Asia because of the growth in Arab > sea-borne trade/traders. > Before Muslims, Indian traders, mainly from > the South and East India took their religions,first Hinduism and > then Buddhism to Southeast Asia. > > D. T. Suzuki, his guru established Zen first. Have seen > Dalai Lama touring USA. After 1959, a need was felt to > study Tibetan buddhism. watched little buddha movie, > Richard Gere, ... A core group of trained Lamas are working > for Tibetan Buddhism in US. > Well these latter examples are really relevant. Buddhism started in India, but often is transmitted by non-Indians. For example, Chinese were largely responisble for the spread of Buddhism in Japan. Tibetans and Japanese have done the most to spread Buddhism in the United States. So religion and technology are not language or "race" specific. They skip from one language or ethnic group to another. Thus, attempting to judge the breakup of PIE on the spread of horse rituals and/or chariot technology is open to much criticism. > >Let's consider the cuneiform inscriptions of Persia. Are these part of > >the same migrations that brought the Vedic peoples to India? If so, > >why don't they have a script similar to that used with Sanskrit? Did > >they ever have such a script? > > In India, writing came much later (after Asoka). This is true > for today's scripts barring IVC writing. Vedas > were transmitted orally for many centuries and committed to > writing much later. Indo-Iranian movements happened > one thousand years before. > One thousand years before what? Were there other migrations, other than the Vedic ones that accounted for the appearance of the Indian scripts? > >If we accept that the Ashokan and related scripts came from the > >"Middle East" and are related to Phoenician-type scripts, how did these > >vault over to India and when? And if Vedic peoples came from Ural and > >Caucasus mountain region (or the Caspian-Aral one) how did they come > >about using a phonetic script rather than cuneiform (given a lower > >limit of 2000 BCE for the PIE breakup). > > IA movements and writing are vastly separated in time. They might be or they might not. Your evidence appears to be mainly legendary. The earliest hypothesized archaeological evidence of "ayrans" is Painted Grey Ware culture. And many do not accept PGW as IA (see the Allchin's work on urban growth). The culture could be as late as the 6th century BCE or just a few centuries before the first inscriptions appear. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Tue Nov 3 16:58:16 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 16:58:16 +0000 Subject: Raghuva.m"sa in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <19981101150406.25418.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042230.23782.11572995271980049055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody help me to locate further *Kashmirian* manuscripts of the Raghuva.m"sa? I am aware of Taticchi's published transcription of old birch bark fragments of the Raghuva.m"sa found in Kafirko.th and I have gathered copies of some other sources (9 "Saaradaa MSS recently acquired by the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin; some folios appended to the birch-bark MS of the Nyaayama~njarii in the BORI; Benares Hindu University MS 1102; Goettingen MS Mu I 81; Oxford MS Ind.Inst.Sansk.247). Ideally I should like to find some more old birch bark MSS. I am also interested in knowing of *Kashmirian* manuscripts of commentaries on the Raghuva.m"sa (other than that of Mallinaatha). The reason I ask is that with Dr. Harunaga Isaacson I am editing (from "Saaradaa MSS) Vallabhadeva's commentary on what is evidently a Kashmirian version of the Raghuva.m"sa. Dominic Goodall. From u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE Tue Nov 3 16:31:53 1998 From: u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 17:31:53 +0100 Subject: Call for papers: KOLAM 3 Message-ID: <161227042228.23782.17525797910639074004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello everybody, we are preparing the third volume of our on-line journal KOLAM (http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/kolam/frame.html). We would be happy to receive contributions in the form of articles (also with illustrations), and comments on the previous 2 volumes, as well as suggestions. With best wishes, Ulrike (for the editors) From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 3 19:16:17 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 19:16:17 +0000 Subject: Kusunda et al. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19981103143250.24679dc8@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227042236.23782.1383661584366908469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Bh.Krishnamurti" wrote: [I wrote:] >>I have just discovered Sergej Starostin's website at >>. Apart from etymological data >>on N.Caucasian, Sino-Tibetan, Yeniseian, Chukchi-Kamchatkan and >>Altaic, it also offers an online Dravidian database based on Burrow & >>Emeneau's Dravidian Et. Dictionary. If I had the time, I'd try to >>find out how close Brahui and Kurux-Malto really are (compared with >>PDrav, PCDrav or PSDrav). > >Please do. I have already looked at this aspect. Bray discusses much of it >in vol.2 I had a little spare time, so I ran a few queries on the Dravidian database. Total number of etymologies: 1226 NDR (NDravidian/Kurukh-Malto): 425 (34.67%) BRA (Brahui): 154 (12.56%) North Dravidian shared with: SDR (South Dravidian) 349 (82.12%) TEL (Telugu) 311 (73.18%) KOGA (Kolani-Gadaba) 293 (68.94%) GND (Gondi-Kui) 300 (70.59%) BRA (Brahui) 84 (19.76%) Brahui shared with: SDR (South Dravidian) 143 (92.86%) TEL (Telugu) 128 (83.12%) KOGA (Kolani-Gadaba) 103 (66.88%) GND (Gondi-Kui) 107 (69.48%) NDR (North Dravidian) 84 (54.55%) There were 2 etymologies (0.16%) shared by Brahui and Kurukh-Malto only. These numbers of course do not invalidate the North-Dravidian (Brahui-Kurukh-Malto) hypothesis in any way. But there is no way I can believe Brahui split off from Kurukh-Malto just 1000 years ago, Baluchi bilingualism or not. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 3 20:39:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 20:39:50 +0000 Subject: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042238.23782.14246274763641249758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paired Horse and PIE breakup **************************** Sintashta chariots are the World's earliest chariots. They are dated to 2000 B.C. Littauer calls them protochariots..... I see a slight logical problem here. The claim that Sintashta chariots are the World's earliest chariots should be modified to a statement like this: "Sintashta chariots are the earliest chariots to be found in the World YET." Or something to that effect. The problem with archaeology is that we are continuously sampling an enormous field of as yet undiscovered material. There may, in principle, be thousands of chariots out there that have not yet been discovered, and some of them may conceivably be older than the Sintashta ones. Not to mention all the material that once was there, but that we shall never be able to find because it is irretrievably lost. Archaeology does not lend itself to strong, generalizing statements like the one given above. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1992 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Nov 4 03:44:34 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 98 22:44:34 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042245.23782.8411042361861876787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > But the Indic azvamedha and Roman equus have so close similarities > that ought to have come from a common, compact area. People > from that area started to spread out after the use of horses in pairs. Thinking the unthinkable, what if IE languages were already being spoken in these regions 6,000 BC or even earlier and some other invaders brought the horse and disappeared? Why not? Haven't IE peoples invaded each others' lands afterwards? Didn't other invaders disappear from history with their language? > The lower limit of Anthony's breakup date is 2000 B.C. > When I think of 1) the parallels of horse slaughter in > Vedic India and the distant Rome and 2) the archaeological date > (2000 B.C.) for chariotry's beginnings, that also points to > the same PIE breakup date (may be 2500 B.C., may be > as late as 2000 B.C.) When does the bronze age begin? Wheels are hard to make without metal. > > Any comments, please? > > With kind regards, > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Nov 3 22:49:11 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 01:49:11 +0300 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042300.23782.14350178162077091276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > On 4 Nov. Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >We see Persians using cuneiform and Aramaic scripts that they borrowed. > >Assyrians certainly had their own chariots. These type of things > >crossed linguistic and ethnic barriers. So, I ask how do we know > >the Sintashta or related cultures spoke Indo-European? > > >Why couldn't they have spoken languages related to Hurrian, > >the Caucasian languages or Uralic (among others)? I have started my answer to this question with the words: > No, they could not, it is absolutely impossible. And now Paul Kekai Manansala comments on it in this way: > ...using terms like "impossible" is not useful in the type of speculation > that is being engaged in with these theories. You would be probably right if I stopped at that. But in my letter it was followed and supported with arguments which you omitted in your quotation. I referred to the opinion of specialists, according to which the Andronovo people most probably spoke Iranian, because the Scythians, who are their cultural descencents, were surely Iranian-speaking people. You doubt it, suggesting that the "Scythians" were rather Altaic or Uralic people. >Again the so-called "Scythian" culture was found among many peoples >including Altaic and Uralic. In fact, we have much more hard evidence >of this culture among the latter peoples. I might add that until fairly >recently the Scythian cultures were also considered "Turanian." Both Western (North Pontic) and Eastern (Saka) Scythians spoke Iranian dialects which is attested by Greek and Indian written sources, by etymology of place-names and so on. Uralians, with the only exception of The Hungarians in the middle of the 1st century AD, were always forest hunters, not the steppe pastoralists. The same may be said about proto-Turks until 3rd century BC, when they came to the steppes from their forest Siberian homeland. What could these peoples have in common with the problem that we are now discussing: the emergence of the war-chariot in the western part of the Eurasian steppe in the beginning of the 2-n mill. BC? The word "Turanian" goes back to the Iranian epic, where it is used to designate the Eastern Iranian nomadic tribes. As far as I know, the word has nothing in common with "Turk" and related words. What is the "hard evidence" of Scythian culture among "Altaic and Uralic" tribes? Is there any evidence at all in favour of your point of view that Scythian's language was not Iranian? Will you kindly present it, it would be very interesting to learn what sources did you use. Best regards, Ya.V. _____________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Nov 4 05:07:06 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 05:07:06 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <363F4FC5.9FA13B5C@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042247.23782.5167368638233375862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Let's consider the cuneiform inscriptions of Persia. Are these part of >the same migrations that brought the Vedic peoples to India? No. It is quite clear that the movement of Persians and Medes into Western Iran was a separate event, independent of the Indo-Aryans and independent of the rest of the (Eastern) Iranians. The Persian cuneiform syllabary is a Persian invention. Apart from the general wedge-like ("cuneiform") shape of the letters, it has nothing specific in common with Akkadian or Elamite Cuneiform. In that respect it is similar to, say, Cherokee writing, where most of the signs resemble letters of the Roman alphabet or shapes that might have been letters of the Roman alphabet, but the sound values are completely different, and in fact stand for syllables, not phonemes. However, Persian cuneiform had only limited use, and the most widely used writing system in the Persian Empire was Aramaic. >If we accept that the Ashokan and related scripts came from the >"Middle East" and are related to Phoenician-type scripts, how did these >vault over to India and when? That's an interesting question, that has no simple solution. The oldest known Indian scripts (apart from the IVC script, that is), are Kharos.t.hi: (5th c. BC?) and Bra:hmi: (3rd. c. BC?). Kharosthi was used exclusively in the North-West, and has left no modern descendants. Brahmi is the source of all modern Indian and SE Asian alphabets, as well as the Tibetan alphabet. The most widely accepted theory is that Kharosthi (surely) and Brahmi (most likely) are derived from the Aramaic alphabet (itself ultimately derived from Linear Canaanite/Phoenician), the official script of the Achaemenid empire. The Aramaic script was enormously influential both during and after the fall of the Achaemenid Empire. That is why Hebrew and Arabic are today written in Aramaic-derived scripts, even if at first Hebrew was written in a local variant of Phoenician script, and Arabic in a local variant of South-Semitic script (as survives today in Ethiopia). Aramaic writing also spread widely into Central Asia, where it was used for writing various Iranian and Turkic languages, and led eventually led to the Mongolian and Manchu scripts. The date of the earliest Kharoshthi inscriptions coincides with that of the spread of Aramaic throughout the Persian Empire, and it seems the shapes of most Kharosthi letters can be easily identified with teh shapes of the Imperial Aramaic script. In the case of Brahmi, only some of the letters are similar to Aramaic letters of identical phonetic value. The most intriguing aspect of course is that both Kharosthi and Brahmi, unlike Imperial Aramaic, are "alphasyllabaries" (or "abugidas" to use the Ethiopian term). The Aramaic script was not simply taken over as is, and not even simply adapted/extended to the phonetic needs of Sanskrit/Prakrit, but it was fundamentally re-wrought. It is interesting to generalize about the different ways in which writing systems can be transmitted, having to do with the proficiency of the creators of a certain script with the script from which it is derived (or by which it is inspired). 1. Only the idea of writing is transmitted; the creators of the new script are unfamiliar with or choose to completely disregard the general shape of the signs in the original writing system. (It is said that Egyptian hieroglyphic was inspired by early Sunerian cuneiform in this way, but I haven't seen nay real proof of that). 2. Only the general shape of the writing is transmitted. The creators of the new script are illiterate in the original script, but have seen enough sample of it to create signs that have the same general shape (examples: Cherokee, Persian cuneiform). 3. Shapes and (some) values of the original script are transmitted, but the general principles are reworked (alphabet -> (alpha-) syllabary, consonantal alphabet -> full alphabet, etc.). The creators of the script are presumably only semi-literate in the originating script. (examples: Brahmi & Kharosthi < Aramaic, Greek < Phoenician, etc.) 4. The writing system is borrowed in full, although it might be reduced/extended to fit the needs of the language(s) for which it is borrowed. The creators of the script are reasonably proficient ion the originating writing system. Examples: Cyrillic < East Greek, Roman/Etruscan < West Greek, South Indian scripts < Brahmi, etc.) 5. A special case is Iranian Aramaic, where the writers are in a way too proficient in the originating script, and the change from Aramaic to Middle Iranian is only gradual and never complete. The word for "king" (and many, many others) is still written MLK (in Aramaic), although it is to be pronounced as /sha:h/. Similar cases are Akkadian cuneiform (< Sumerian) and Japanese writing (< Chinese), although the fact that these are logosyllabic scripts, where a single sign can stand for a whole word, makes the development more readily understandable. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 4 14:05:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 06:05:52 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042255.23782.7699538911324920700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<<<<<< Well these latter examples are really relevant. Buddhism started in India, but often is transmitted by non-Indians. For example, Chinese were largely responisble for the spread of Buddhism in Japan. Tibetans and Japanese have done the most to spread Buddhism in the United States. So religion and technology are not language or "race" specific. They skip from one language or ethnic group to another. Thus, attempting to judge the breakup of PIE on the spread of horse rituals and/or chariot technology is open to much criticism. >>>>>>>>> In the history of religions, buddist monks are the first missionaries known to us. Many Indian monks like Bodhidharma and Dharmagupta were in China spreading Buddhism. Later their spiritual descendents took from Sino-Korean region to Japan. Some Indians could well have been there along with Chinese. 1) To teach Buddhist Sanskrit texts and 2) Alphabetical order in one Japanese script shows Indian influence (K. A. Nilakanta Sastri quotes a 1910s article saying it can be from Tamil; Southeast Asian scripts derive from Pallava grantha). Japanese or Tibetan Buddhism is recognizably different from the earlier Indian Buddhism. This is in the last millennium. Why the horse ritual and divine horse-twins myth are similar for a much greater time depth? No evidence for such an effective horse complex evangelism in second or third or seventh millennium B.C. If we must rely on solely on archaeology and textual materials are irrelevant and myths/legends cannot be compared, IE studies won't be where it is. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Nov 4 14:27:46 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 06:27:46 -0800 Subject: [Paired Horse and PIE breakup] Message-ID: <161227042257.23782.10473531804748063680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Both in Indian asvamedha and Roman ritual, the right side horse > of paired draught was sacrificed... Are there any textual bases for this statement? There was an elaborate posting by Vidyanatha Rao on the chariot issue; I don't know if I missed the point about diffusion of chariots from Mesopotamia; is there any comparison between the Mesopotamian solid-wheeled chariot driven by a pair of onagers and the Sintashta-type Central Asian solid-wheeled horse-drawn chariots? Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 4 14:53:06 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 06:53:06 -0800 Subject: D. Anthony's e-mail Message-ID: <161227042260.23782.11387219130742299798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone give me the e-mail address of Prof. David W. Anthony, please? He is Director, Institute for Ancient Equestrian studies at Hartwick cllege, Oneonta, New York. Bunch of thanks in advance, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Nov 4 09:00:36 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 09:00:36 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042249.23782.5525152115276849589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I see a slight logical problem here. The claim that Sintashta >chariots >are the World's earliest chariots should be modified to a statement >like this: "Sintashta chariots are the earliest chariots to be found >in the World YET." Or something to that effect. Yes, Dr. Fosse's point is well-taken. But, Littauer calls these to be 'proto' chariots. True chariots are only 1800 B.C. Sintashta chariots are evolving towards true ones. So, the archaelogical finds can at best go back few centuries before 2000 B.C. (say 2500 B.C.) Point well taken! However, just to be difficult, my experience in other matters is that "older models" sometimes coexist with newer one chronologically (e.g. Islandic is practically identical to Old Norse, whereas Norwegian and Old Norse are two different languages), because of different traditions of various kinds in different places. I would therefore still say that conservative judgements are in place. Also: the proto-chariot may simply have been a chariot for special purposes and therefore with a special design. But I won't argue this view very strongly since I haven't seen the material on the proto chariot. :-)) The same applies of course to the true chariots - the oldest ones we know date back to 1800 B. C. There may be older ones still. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2252 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Nov 4 17:23:37 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 09:23:37 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042262.23782.16351906993629340773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: Why the horse ritual and > divine horse-twins myth are similar for a much greater time depth? > No evidence for such an effective horse complex evangelism > in second or third or seventh millennium B.C. > There doesn't have to be evangelism for horse rituals or chariots to spread around. If you look at the culture described by Gimbutas it looks a lot more like recent and/or modern Altaic or Uralic cultures than anything else. If you compare the Scythian culture described by Herodotus and others with the culture of the Hun, Magyars and Mongols, there are a great many parallels. Yet, it is suggested that these people had different language associations. > If we must rely on solely on archaeology > and textual materials are irrelevant and myths/legends > cannot be compared, IE studies won't be where it is. Well, I never said textual materials were not relevant. However, can we base theories on the spread of languages on them? I certainly would not trust such theories. We see Persians using cuneiform and Aramaic scripts that they borrowed. Assyrians certainly had their own chariots. These type of things crossed linguistic and ethnic barriers. So, I ask how do we know the Sintashta or related cultures spoke Indo-European? Why couldn't they have spoken languages related to Hurrian, the Caucasian languages or Uralic (among others)? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Nov 4 17:54:17 1998 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 09:54:17 -0800 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology In-Reply-To: <19981025001609.21688.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042264.23782.10829522914186973703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Yes. The Srirangam Ranganatha temple is said to represent Vishnu's abode > in Vaikuntha ... At least for Srirangam, this equivalence is more symbolic and metaphorical than actual. Vishnu in Srirangam is reclining on the serpent AdiSesha (tiru-anantAzvAn), which corresponds to his pose in kshIrAbdhi (tirup-pArkaDal), not in Vaikuntha. Vishnu in Vaikuntha is said to be in a sitting pose, with one leg folded, one leg on the ground, with Lakshmi at his side. Typically, Vishnu is known in this form as parama-pada-nAtha. There is a shrine dedicated to the parama-pada-nAtha form in many large Vishnu temples. It is true, however, that Srirangam is known as bhUloka-vaikuNTha. Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 4 18:42:13 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 10:42:13 -0800 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227042267.23782.2091218710106596324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is it then just the vimAnam (the gold plated one) that is Vaikuntham? But in that too, PerumAL is standing! Not in the paramapatam posture. Regards, N. Ganesan ----------------------- At least for Srirangam, this equivalence is more symbolic and metaphorical than actual. Vishnu in Srirangam is reclining on the serpent AdiSesha (tiru-anantAzvAn), which corresponds to his pose in kshIrAbdhi (tirup-pArkaDal), not in Vaikuntha. Vishnu in Vaikuntha is said to be in a sitting pose, with one leg folded, one leg on the ground, with Lakshmi at his side. Typically, Vishnu is known in this form as parama-pada-nAtha. There is a shrine dedicated to the parama-pada-nAtha form in many large Vishnu temples. It is true, however, that Srirangam is known as bhUloka-vaikuNTha. Mani ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Nov 4 19:01:17 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 11:01:17 -0800 Subject: Wood for chariots (Was SV: method of dating RV, III] Message-ID: <161227042271.23782.396038237098121314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Not only Drews. Anthony also writes years after Drews.> (Also, Anthony writes that PIE as a language existed after> 3500 B.C. and the breakup could be as late as 2000 B.C..> He also places much emphasis on technical innovations (chariots)> for the spread of IE). Let me cite from the Rigveda: abhi vyayasva khadirasya sa_ramojo dhehi spandane s'im.s'apa_ya_m aks.a vi_l.o vil.ita vi_l.ayasva ma_ ya_ma_dasma_dava ji_hipo nah (RV. 3.53.19) Fix firmly the substance of the khayar (axle), give solidity to the s'is'u (floor) of the car; strong axle, strongly fixed by us, be strong; cast us not from out of our conveyance. [Sa_yan.a explains that from khadira (mimosa catechu) the bolt of the axle is made; and from s'im.s'apa_ (dalbergia sissoo), the wood for the chariot's floor is made] Dalbergia sissoo = Indian rosewood, also called iruvi.l.i (Tamil) [Other lexemes and image:http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/Indian Lexicon/dalbergia.htm; http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/dalbergiasissoo.jpg] I have two questions: Do the archaeological reports indicate the nature of wood used in the chariot fragments unearthed? Is Dalbergia Sissoo commonly found in Central Asia, just as it is in abundant measure in the Sarasvati River Basin? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 4 19:11:18 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 11:11:18 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042272.23782.11793939855291201841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If we accept that the Ashokan and related scripts came from the >"Middle East" and are related to Phoenician-type scripts, how did these >vault over to India and when? And if Vedic peoples came from Ural and >Caucasus mountain region (or the Caspian-Aral one) how did they come >about using a phonetic script rather than cuneiform (given a lower >limit of 2000 BCE for the PIE breakup). After the demise of Achaemenid empire, the Iranian artisans found no patronage in Iran. They dispersed. Some of them could have been at Paa.taliputra, according to scholars. Compare with Mughal painters at the time of Aurangzeb left for Hindu courts. Mughal style in Rajput painting, Pahari painting, gets established after that. There were Greek ambassadors at Mauryan courts. Not long ago, Aramaic inscriptions of Asoka are found. J. C. Harle, The art and architecture of the Indian subcontinent, p. 22: "Although they no doubt conformed to a practice derived from Achaemenid Iran, Asoka's edicts ..." p.24: "Some of the pillars were unquestionably raised by Asoka. others are probably somewhat earlier, but not a great deal, for a longer tradition of stone carving would certainly have left other remains. The sudden appearance of stone carving of such sophistication probably argues for some foreign workers or at least contacts, just as the rather cold hieratic style of the Saranath lions shows obvious Achaemenid or Sargonid influence. ..." From R. Salomon, On the origin of Early Indain scripts, JAOS, 1996, I gather that Brahmi is most likely derived from Aramaic of Achaemendid empire. Shri. Iravatham Mahadevan also says that Brahmi is derived from the West of India. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Nov 4 19:37:49 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 11:37:49 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042269.23782.11198334643980919696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >Let's consider the cuneiform inscriptions of Persia. Are these part of > >the same migrations that brought the Vedic peoples to India? > > No. It is quite clear that the movement of Persians and Medes into > Western Iran was a separate event, independent of the Indo-Aryans and > independent of the rest of the (Eastern) Iranians. > > The Persian cuneiform syllabary is a Persian invention. Apart from > the general wedge-like ("cuneiform") shape of the letters, it has > nothing specific in common with Akkadian or Elamite Cuneiform. In > that respect it is similar to, say, Cherokee writing, where most of > the signs resemble letters of the Roman alphabet or shapes that might > have been letters of the Roman alphabet, but the sound values are > completely different, and in fact stand for syllables, not phonemes. > > However, Persian cuneiform had only limited use, and the most widely > used writing system in the Persian Empire was Aramaic. > > >If we accept that the Ashokan and related scripts came from the > >"Middle East" and are related to Phoenician-type scripts, how did these > >vault over to India and when? > > That's an interesting question, that has no simple solution. > The oldest known Indian scripts (apart from the IVC script, that is), > are Kharos.t.hi: (5th c. BC?) and Bra:hmi: (3rd. c. BC?). Kharosthi > was used exclusively in the North-West, and has left no modern > descendants. Brahmi is the source of all modern Indian and SE Asian > alphabets, as well as the Tibetan alphabet. The most widely accepted > theory is that Kharosthi (surely) and Brahmi (most likely) are > derived from the Aramaic alphabet (itself ultimately derived from > Linear Canaanite/Phoenician), the official script of the Achaemenid > empire. The Aramaic script was enormously influential both during > and after the fall of the Achaemenid Empire. That is why Hebrew and > Arabic are today written in Aramaic-derived scripts, even if at first > Hebrew was written in a local variant of Phoenician script, and > Arabic in a local variant of South-Semitic script (as survives today > in Ethiopia). Aramaic writing also spread widely into Central Asia, > where it was used for writing various Iranian and Turkic languages, > and led eventually led to the Mongolian and Manchu scripts. > > The date of the earliest Kharoshthi inscriptions coincides with that > of the spread of Aramaic throughout the Persian Empire, and it seems > the shapes of most Kharosthi letters can be easily identified with > teh shapes of the Imperial Aramaic script. In the case of Brahmi, > only some of the letters are similar to Aramaic letters of identical > phonetic value. The most intriguing aspect of course is that both > Kharosthi and Brahmi, unlike Imperial Aramaic, are "alphasyllabaries" > (or "abugidas" to use the Ethiopian term). The Aramaic script was > not simply taken over as is, and not even simply adapted/extended to > the phonetic needs of Sanskrit/Prakrit, but it was fundamentally > re-wrought. > > It is interesting to generalize about the different ways in which > writing systems can be transmitted, having to do with the proficiency > of the creators of a certain script with the script from which it is > derived (or by which it is inspired). > > 1. Only the idea of writing is transmitted; the creators of the new > script are unfamiliar with or choose to completely disregard the > general shape of the signs in the original writing system. (It is > said that Egyptian hieroglyphic was inspired by early Sunerian > cuneiform in this way, but I haven't seen nay real proof of that). > > 2. Only the general shape of the writing is transmitted. The creators > of the new script are illiterate in the original script, but have > seen enough sample of it to create signs that have the same general > shape (examples: Cherokee, Persian cuneiform). > > 3. Shapes and (some) values of the original script are transmitted, > but the general principles are reworked (alphabet -> (alpha-) > syllabary, consonantal alphabet -> full alphabet, etc.). The > creators of the script are presumably only semi-literate in the > originating script. (examples: Brahmi & Kharosthi < Aramaic, Greek < > Phoenician, etc.) > > 4. The writing system is borrowed in full, although it might be > reduced/extended to fit the needs of the language(s) for which it is > borrowed. The creators of the script are reasonably proficient ion > the originating writing system. Examples: Cyrillic < East Greek, > Roman/Etruscan < West Greek, South Indian scripts < Brahmi, etc.) > > 5. A special case is Iranian Aramaic, where the writers are in a way > too proficient in the originating script, and the change from Aramaic > to Middle Iranian is only gradual and never complete. The word for > "king" (and many, many others) is still written MLK (in Aramaic), > although it is to be pronounced as /sha:h/. Similar cases are > Akkadian cuneiform (< Sumerian) and Japanese writing (< Chinese), > although the fact that these are logosyllabic scripts, where a single > sign can stand for a whole word, makes the development more readily > understandable. > > ======================= > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal > mcv at wxs.nl > Amsterdam From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Nov 4 10:42:39 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 11:42:39 +0100 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <3660cd07.305892502@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227042253.23782.2676828051143384551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > [cut] > >The oldest known Indian scripts (apart from the IVC script, that is), >are Kharos.t.hi: (5th c. BC?) and Bra:hmi: (3rd. c. BC?). But see Harry Falk: Schrift im alten Indien. Tuebingen, 1993 (a very detailed research report!): The Kharos.t.hi script was probably invented only shortly before Ashoka and the Brahmi under Ashoka. There does not seem to exist convincing evidence for Kharos.t.hi beginning as early as the 5th c. BC. > The most widely accepted theory is that Kharosthi (surely) and Brahmi > (most likely) are derived from the Aramaic alphabet See again Falk, who argues for the Brahmi script being influenced by both Kharosthi and Greek script, but - in contradistinction to Kharosthi - not directly by the Aramaic script. As for the rest: thank you for the useful survey! Best regards Georg v. Simson From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Nov 4 19:21:44 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 14:21:44 -0500 Subject: Relationship Between Temple Architecture and Cosmology Message-ID: <161227042274.23782.14895178246869351641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani, Can you please clarify the source of these rather interesting specifics ? Can you or someone else in the list point to me the earliest sanskrit work that refers to kshIrAbdhi and its details such as whether it is southern production or eastern or Kashmirian production, when it was composed etc. Thanks Selvaa *Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: *> Yes. The Srirangam Ranganatha temple is said to represent Vishnu's abode *> in Vaikuntha ... * *At least for Srirangam, this equivalence is more symbolic *and metaphorical than actual. Vishnu in Srirangam is reclining *on the serpent AdiSesha (tiru-anantAzvAn), which corresponds *to his pose in kshIrAbdhi (tirup-pArkaDal), not in Vaikuntha. *Vishnu in Vaikuntha is said to be in a sitting pose, with one leg *folded, one leg on the ground, with Lakshmi at his side. *Typically, Vishnu is known in this form as parama-pada-nAtha. *There is a shrine dedicated to the parama-pada-nAtha form in *many large Vishnu temples. * *It is true, however, that Srirangam is known as bhUloka-vaikuNTha. * *Mani From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Nov 4 11:57:50 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 14:57:50 +0300 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042287.23782.5719084022838951007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 Nov. Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >We see Persians using cuneiform and Aramaic scripts that they borrowed. >Assyrians certainly had their own chariots. These type of things >crossed linguistic and ethnic barriers. So, I ask how do we know >the Sintashta or related cultures spoke Indo-European? >Why couldn't they have spoken languages related to Hurrian, >the Caucasian languages or Uralic (among others)? No, they could not, it is absolutely impossible. Sintashta site belongs to Andronovo culture spread in the 2nd mill. BC in the Eurasian steppe from Volga to Mongolia. And the specialists assert that the origin of the Iranian-speaking cultures of Scythians, S(h)akas, Sarmatians (I mill. BC - I mill. AD) can be traced retrospectively to this Andronovo culture. This conclusion is not based on some single inherited element of culture (e.g., the custom of some Scythian tribes to bury their rulers together with his horses and chariot, just like the Andronovo people did), but on the whole complex of inherited features: belonging of both Scythians and Andr. people to the same or similar type of productive economy, the use of similar tools, the same type of dwellings, technology of making pottery, common types of dress and ornaments, common set of sacred animals and mythological figures (reconstructed on the basis of their art), common set of basic weapons. The genetic continuity is evidenced by anthropological data. See numerous works by Prof. Elena Kuz'mina (e.g.: Horses, chariots and the Indo-Iranians: an archaeological spark in the historical dark. - In: South Asian Archaeology 1993, vol. I, Helsinki, 1994, pp. 402-412). I can not accept her idea that the Andronovo culture represents Indo-Iranians or even probably Proto-Indo-Aryans. I think they were Iranians already and the Proto-Indo-Aryan branch is rather represented by the Novosvobodnaya ("Maikop") culture in Northern Caucausus (see my article in SAA 1993, vol. 2, pp. 777-786). Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov Yaroslav Vassilkov, Ph.D. Dept. of South and South-East Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Nov 4 10:33:49 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 15:33:49 +0500 Subject: Devanagari script in posting to the list Message-ID: <161227042251.23782.13541156603960485827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Most of the e-mail clients like Eudora, Pegasus Mail, Netscape Messengser, Internet Mail, Outlook Express are HTML literate and most of them can be made to display attached .html files in the body of e-mail itself by choosing the option "Put text attachements in the body of the message". This makes the clicking of attached .html file unneccessary. Thus it is possible to send postings with quotations in devanagari script. But there are some drawbacks. 1. List members who have only a shell account will not be able to see the devanagari portions. 2. As you must have noticed in the recent postings, when one attaches the original with the reply, if the original happens to be .html file with devanagari in it, the devanagari portion gets garbled. The more times such a file is sent back and forth the greater will be the garbling, I think. Some of you may be aware of some other drawbacks. I request you to comment and discuss the issues involved. regards, sarma. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carlo at PRAETOR.CH Wed Nov 4 21:05:03 1998 From: carlo at PRAETOR.CH (Charles Poncet) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 22:05:03 +0100 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042276.23782.2708152224795931807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wow !! I don't have a clue I'm afraid. All I did was to hit the reply button on my Netscape 3 browser where I had Devarakonda's stuff in Devanagari because, I assumed, I have the right fonts installed. Why this would not show up on your screen in the original message but in the reply beats me. Charles Claude Setzer wrote: > Can you please tell us what you did to the message??? The original > did not show up on my computer as Devanagari, but your response copy > shows up fine!! Claude Setzer > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Poncet > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: Testing devanagari script in e-mailWorks > absolutely fine for me perhaps because I have both > sans12.ttf font and Xdvng installed. > I wish TYPING in Devanagari was that simple because all > available software seems to be unable to recognise that some > people do not type on American or English language > keyboards. I use a French keyboard and sure enough I have to > guess where to find the anuswara and the like because all > indications in the manual are wrong !! This is very > frustrating indeed. > If anybody has a bright idea how to solve that problem I > will be very grateful > Charles Poncet > > DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > > > This is a test message. All the people who have sans12.ttf > > font > > installed should be able to see the sloka below in > > devanagari script. > > > > Ay< inj> praeveit g[na l"ucetsam!, > > %darcirtana< tu vsuxEkk…quMbkm!. > > This one if you have xdvng.ttf installed > > > > Ay:? en:j:H p:r:?v:?et: g:N:n:a l:G:?c:?t:s:am:?. > > udarc:ert:an:a? t:? vas:?D:?kk?X?mb:km:?/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carlo at PRAETOR.CH Wed Nov 4 21:06:29 1998 From: carlo at PRAETOR.CH (Charles Poncet) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 22:06:29 +0100 Subject: Typing Devnagari Message-ID: <161227042279.23782.6859823175073801114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the info. I will try and let you know. Charles Avinash Sathaye wrote: > > > Charles Poncet wrote: > >> Works absolutely fine for me perhaps because I have both sans12.ttf >> font and Xdvng installed. >> I wish TYPING in Devanagari was that simple because all available >> software seems to be unable to recognise that some people do not >> type on American or English language keyboards. I use a French >> keyboard and sure enough I have to guess where to find the anuswara >> and the like because all indications in the manual are wrong !! This >> is very frustrating indeed. >> If anybody has a bright idea how to solve that problem I will be >> very grateful >> Charles Poncet >> > > Pardon me for repeating the following information. > But there are two existing solutions around this problem. One is to > use the ITRANS scheme which uses ordinary transliterations for > encoding the material. You don't need any fancy keystrokes. The > Itranslator developed by the folks at the Omkarananda Ashram will open > two windows, let you type ITRANS notation in one and see the output in > another. Once created, the devnagari file is fully portable. The site > for this public domain utility is: > Omkarananda Ashram > If you are more used to word-type processing, then I recommend the > simple macros by John Richards also available in the same site. They > don't need ITRANS scheme, but you can type transliterated letters > followed by a control sequence to create ligatures. Both these > solutions are for the Windows' world! For unix etc. the ITRANS or > TeX/LaTeX are still my choices! > > As a sample, let me illustrate how the sample > >> Ay< inj> praeveit g[na l"ucetsam!, >> %darcirtana< tu vsuxEkk quMbkm!. >> > is encoded in ITRANS. It is simply: > ayaM nijaH paroveti gaNanA laghuchetasAm | > udAracharitAnAM tu vasudhaikakuTumbakam || -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carlo at PRAETOR.CH Wed Nov 4 21:08:54 1998 From: carlo at PRAETOR.CH (Charles Poncet) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 22:08:54 +0100 Subject: Testing devanagari script in e-mail Message-ID: <161227042281.23782.17913617772358247765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'll check and let you know in an other E-mail. I bought them originally so I have to check the licence conditions and where I got them from in the first place. Charles Krishna Susarla wrote: > > > Works absolutely fine for me perhaps because I have both > sans12.ttf font and Xdvng installed. > > > > Where can one obtain the Sanskrit fonts mentioned above? > > > > -- K > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Thu Nov 5 03:53:19 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 22:53:19 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042283.23782.11649746575107215152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > N. Ganesan wrote: > Why the horse ritual and > > divine horse-twins myth are similar for a much greater time depth? > > No evidence for such an effective horse complex evangelism > > in second or third or seventh millennium B.C. > > > > There doesn't have to be evangelism for horse rituals or chariots to > spread around. If you look at the culture described by Gimbutas > it looks a lot more like recent and/or modern Altaic or Uralic cultures > than anything else. If you compare the Scythian culture described by > Herodotus and others with the culture of the Hun, Magyars and Mongols, > there are a great many parallels. Yet, it is suggested that these people > had different language associations. The wolf myth exists among Romans and Turkic peoples. Herodotus reports of a people in Scythia who turned to wolves every year. He says he does not believe it but reports that everyone says it's true. No link? What if it came from the Etruscans to the Romans? Miziev has a list of words which are from the ancient inhabitants of the European steppes and finds old Turkic etymologies for many of them. I have never seen any of these words or their meanings in any book written in English. Most of them are very good. Does anyone know where this info comes from? Look at some common cultural words/items: Etruscan Turkic -------- ------ Turan Turan Turan is Etruscan fertility/love goddess. Tuwurghan is Turkic for 'she who gives birth'. Something like 'tud' (tuwdu) is Sumerian for having to do with birth, and begetting. Tiber Temir Iron. Etruscans had iron mines at the River Tiber. Tursi/Tusci Turk The name Romans gave Etruscans. Rasenna/Rashna Asena/Ashina Etruscan name for themselves and the other word is the royal house that gave leaders to the Turkic peoples. Rasenna is probably also cognate with "Nasili". Tarchon Tarkhan Nobody knows exactly what Tarchon means but the Etruscans gave the royal house Tarquinius to Rome. Tarkhan is a title in Turkic but it shows up in plural form as 'tarkhat' which is not Turkic. The custom of seizing the king and asking him how long he will rule and killing him if he rules longer is reported among the Turkic speakers. Similar customs are reported among Nilo-Saharan speakers. How many people could have such strange customs? > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Nov 4 22:42:01 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 01:42:01 +0300 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042364.23782.10773990297682796543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 6 Nov. H.M.Hubey wrote: >Miziev says that the Soviet scholars control Iranian studies and that >the >Iranists control Turkic studies and decide what can be written. How do you imagine it is possible for the "Soviet" scholars to control Iranian studies in the world? Have you heard, by the way, that the Soviet Union does not exist any more? And what is meant by the words "Iranists control Turkic studies"? Does these words have any sense? >Where >are >the sources (in English) in which these words from Scythian and other >early nomadic languages have been published and etymologized? would it >not >be interesting for everyone to have access to this? There are many (dozens, hundreds) of scholarly works in English on the subject, see e.g. J.Harmatta. Studies in the language of the Iranian tribes in South Russia. - "Acta Orientalia" Budapest, t.I (1951), pp. 261-314; M.Rostovtzeff. Iranians and Greeks in South Russia. Oxford, 1922; for the language of Eastern Scythians - Sakas see fundamental works by H.W.Bailey and R.E.Emmerick, etc.). But why are you going to limit yourselves with English sources only? If you are ready to make a revolution in world linguistics and to prove that Scythian language was not Iranian, how can you, being such a learned linguist, have any difficulties at all with French or German? And then you will find another hundred of titles in French (numerous works by G.Dumezil, E.Benveniste and others) and German (e.g., works by J.Marquart). But I am sure that even if you read all this it will not shake your belief that Scythians, together with Sumerians and Etruscans, spoke (Proto-)Turkish. >This is especially interesting for me for various reasons. Among them is >a book by Tuna in which almost 200 words (naturally displaying regular >sound correspondences) between Turkic and Sumerian are shown. In >addition Miziev has a book in which he etymologizes some Scythian and other words >as also Turkic. >> The Hungarians in the middle of the 1st century AD, were always forest >> hunters, not the steppe pastoralists. The same may be said about proto-Turks >> until 3rd century BC, when they came to the steppes from their forest >> Siberian homeland. What could these peoples have in common with the problem >> that we are now discussing: the emergence of the war-chariot in the western >> part of the Eurasian steppe in the beginning of the 2-n mill. BC? >That part sounds fictional considering the 165 Sumero-Turkic cognates. >I will leave out the fact that Suleymanov says this number is now about >400. Olzhas Sulejmenov whom you refer to is no linguist, no historian, no anthropologist; he is a talanted and well-known Kazakh poet, who tries since the late 1970-ies in a diletant's way to prove the identity of Proto-Turks with Sumerians and exceptional role played by them in the world history. I don't know who are Tuna and Miziev, but if I may judge from your references to their works they belong to the same genre of nationalistic "science"-fiction. >> The word "Turanian" goes back to the Iranian epic, where it is >> used to designate the Eastern Iranian nomadic tribes. As far as I know, >> the word has nothing in common with "Turk" and related words. >That is also false. Romans called the Etruscans Tusci/Tursi. Turan was >a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ is the root for >birth and begetting in Turkic. That is not all. There is more, even up >to and including the idea that 'troy' was really 'tur' and the Greek >language created the consonant cluster. I posted a list of cognates >between Chuvash and Etruscan at one time. A dozen years ago a Russian ultra-patriotic writer made similar discovery. He is absolutely sure that the word "Etruscan" means simply "Eto - russkij", that is: "This is a Russian". Why should not the interested persons pay attention to this idea too? But not on this list. It is hightime, I think, for somebody to open, let's say, "Nationalistic World history discussion club" (with the motto: Nationalists of all nations, unite!). Let them all come together there and decide in a friendly discussion, once and for all, what nation did Adam belong to, what language did Eve speak. Without us. We shall better stick to the problems of Indology. This is my best wish to us all, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 5 13:01:36 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 05:01:36 -0800 Subject: Univ. of Texas job Message-ID: <161227042285.23782.2325028450725371307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An urgent help needed: A friend wants to apply for the following job. Where should that person send the applications as well as reference letters? Since Nov. 20 is so close, an e-mail address is needed. Thanks in advance, N. Ganesan > POSITION IN SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES > at The University of Texas at > Austin > > Department of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin is > recruiting for a tenure-track position in its South Asian Studies > Program > at the level of Assistant Professor. The candidate needs to have a Ph.D. > in > hand by the time of appointment. We are looking for a person trained in > the > humanities having an emphasis on the culture and/or literature of either > North India or South India. The candidate needs to have demonstrated > teaching and research ability or potential and to possess a strong > language > background in Hindi/Urdu (for North India) or Tamil (for South India). > Knowledge of a related Indian language will be an advantage. Area and > period of specialization is open. The successful applicant will > complement > existing departmental strengths in South Asian languages, literature, > history, religion, philosophy, anthropology, political science, and art > history. Teaching duties will include an undergraduate gateway course to > South Asia and other undergraduate and graduate courses related to the > candidate's area of specialization. The University of Texas has a > National > Resource Center for South Asia funded by the U.S. Department of > Education > under Title VI. > > Please send a letter of interest, current CV, three letters of > reference, > recent papers/publications, and relevant syllabi to: > > South Asia Search > Committee > Department of Asian Studies, WCH > 4.134 > University of Texas at > Austin > Austin, Texas 78712-1194 > > The closing date for applications is November 20, 1998. An AA/EEO > employer. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Nov 5 15:02:51 1998 From: kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 09:02:51 -0600 Subject: Univ. of Texas job In-Reply-To: <19981105130137.24888.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042289.23782.13272461855894698689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those of you who are confused about the address, it is right at the end of the job ad: South Asia Search Committee Department of Asian Studies, WCH 4.134 University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas 78712-1194 Thanks. Kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > An urgent help needed: > A friend wants to apply for the following job. > Where should that person send the applications > as well as reference letters? Since Nov. 20 > is so close, an e-mail address is needed. > > Thanks in advance, > N. Ganesan > > > > POSITION IN SOUTH ASIAN > STUDIES > > at The University of Texas at > > Austin > > > > Department of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin is > > recruiting for a tenure-track position in its South Asian Studies > > Program > > at the level of Assistant Professor. The candidate needs to have a > Ph.D. > > in > > hand by the time of appointment. We are looking for a person trained > in > > the > > humanities having an emphasis on the culture and/or literature of > either > > North India or South India. The candidate needs to have demonstrated > > teaching and research ability or potential and to possess a strong > > language > > background in Hindi/Urdu (for North India) or Tamil (for South India). > > Knowledge of a related Indian language will be an advantage. Area and > > period of specialization is open. The successful applicant will > > complement > > existing departmental strengths in South Asian languages, literature, > > history, religion, philosophy, anthropology, political science, and > art > > history. Teaching duties will include an undergraduate gateway course > to > > South Asia and other undergraduate and graduate courses related to the > > candidate's area of specialization. The University of Texas has a > > National > > Resource Center for South Asia funded by the U.S. Department of > > Education > > under Title VI. > > > > Please send a letter of interest, current CV, three letters of > > reference, > > recent papers/publications, and relevant syllabi to: > > > > South Asia Search > > Committee > > Department of Asian Studies, > WCH > > 4.134 > > University of Texas at > > Austin > > Austin, Texas > 78712-1194 > > > > The closing date for applications is November 20, 1998. An AA/EEO > > employer. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Nov 5 17:49:50 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 09:49:50 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042290.23782.11137118136030861339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > On 4 Nov. Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >We see Persians using cuneiform and Aramaic scripts that they borrowed. > >Assyrians certainly had their own chariots. These type of things > >crossed linguistic and ethnic barriers. So, I ask how do we know > >the Sintashta or related cultures spoke Indo-European? > > >Why couldn't they have spoken languages related to Hurrian, > >the Caucasian languages or Uralic (among others)? > > No, they could not, it is absolutely impossible. Again the so-called "Scythian" culture was found among many peoples including Altaic and Uralic. In fact, we have much more hard evidence of this culture among the latter peoples. I might add that until fairly recently the Scythian cultures were also considered "Turanian." I using terms like "impossible" is not useful in the type of speculation that is being engaged in with these theories. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 5 18:48:22 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 10:48:22 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042292.23782.4405612175015485229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >> But the Indic azvamedha and Roman equus have so close similarities >> that ought to have come from a common, compact area. People >> from that area started to spread out after the use of horses in pairs. >Thinking the unthinkable, what if IE languages were already being >spoken in these regions 6,000 BC or even earlier and some other invaders >brought the horse and disappeared? Why not? Haven't IE peoples invaded >each others' lands afterwards? Didn't other invaders disappear from >history with their language? Many guesses for PIE splitup dates are possible. But the evidence points to a more likely scenario that PIE people lived as one single speech community in rather a small region after 3500 B.C.. Want to know the reasons why PIE split up before 6000 B.C.? I will appreciate Summary of main points for a PIE split date like 6000 B.C. or references. Prof. Anthony's reasoning is attached below. Regards, N. Ganesan Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12) Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European languages and archaeology. David W. Anthony. <<<<<<< Wheels and the date of the Indo-European spread Reconstructed proto-Indo-European (PIE) represents a real ancient vocabulary that is potentially of inestimable value to archaeologists. Historical linguists have established that the speakers of PIE were familiar with wheeled vehicles, reconstructing at least six PIE terms that refer to them: three terms for wheel (perhaps an indication of the importance of wheels in PIE life), one for axle, one for 'thill' (the draft pole to which the yoke is attached) and a verbal root meaning 'to go or convey in a vehicle' [ILLUSTRATION FOR FIGURE 1 OMITTED]. Cognates for these terms exist in all branches of Indo-European, from Celtic in the west to Sanskrit and Tocharian in the east, and from Baltic in the north to Hittite and Greek in the south (Schrader 1890: 339; Specht 1944: 99-103; Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1984: 718-38; Anthony & Wailes 1988; Anthony 1991; Meid 1994). The PIE terms probably referred to the earliest form of wheeled vehicle - the solid-wheeled wagon or cart, pulled (slowly) by cattle. There is no single shared root for 'spoke', a later refinement in wheeled-vehicle technology. Renfrew and others have suggested that none of these terms need derive from PIE; all of them might have spread through the IE languages as wheeled vehicle technology diffused, long after the separation and formation of the IE daughter tongues (Renfrew 1987: 86, 110; 1988: 464-5; Zvelebil & Zvelebil 1988). A post-PIE date for the diffusion of wheeled vehicles is unlikely for four reasons. First, the cognate vocabulary consists of not one term, but at least six. Entire technical vocabularies have rarely been borrowed intact over so large an area in the absence of sophisticated communications and literacy. The core wagon vocabulary is distributed from India to Scotland with no terms confined to just the western or just the eastern IE languages. If it diffused after the IE dispersal it must have spread as a single semantic unit over a very large region that was fragmented linguistically, ethnically and ecologically [ILLUSTRATION FOR FIGURE 1 OMITTED]. The diffusion of other post-PIE technologies (notably the spoke and iron) through the IE-speaking world was not accompanied by the spread of standardized vocabularies in the manner proposed for wheeled vehicles. Second, the diffusion of the earliest wheeled vehicle technology occurred so rapidly that we cannot now determine if it was invented by a single donor culture and diffused, or if it was independently invented in several regions (Piggott 1983: 63; Hausler 1994). The post-PIE theory assumes a single donor culture whose vehicular vocabulary was adopted across the entire territory between India and western Europe. No archaeological evidence has been offered for this proposition, and much contradicts it. Third, since five of the six Indo-European wheeled-vehicle terms (all except 'thill' or draft-pole) have good Indo-European etymologies - they are derived from recognizable IE verbal or noun roots - the core vocabulary must have been created by an Indo-European-speaking group, which places additional constraints on an already awkward diffusionary hypothesis. Finally, there is simply no internal phonetic or morphological evidence for borrowing within the relevant Indo-European vocabulary. None of these terms - and there are at least 35, when the six roots are multiplied by the number of IE languages in which they appear - is a phonological or morphological misfit within its language lineage (Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1984: 718-38; Meid 1994; Mallory & Adams forthcoming). If the wheeled-vehicle vocabulary originated in an Indo-European daughter language after the separation of the IE languages into numerous distinct phonological and morphological systems, then the phonetic and morphological traits of that language should be detectable in at least some of the borrowed vocabulary, given the phonological distinctiveness of the IE daughter languages. The absence of such evidence indicates that the IE wheeled-vehicle vocabulary was not borrowed, but inherited from PIE. [[[Note 1: I have not proposed that wheeled vehicle technology originated in the PIE homeland, a position that has been attributed to me by Hausler (1994: 223). I have proposed only that most of the IE vocabulary for wheeled vehicles originated in PIE. ]]]] None of these problems has been explicitly addressed or acknowledged in print, beyond a brief discussion in Current Anthropology (Renfrew 1988). While the diffusionary scenario for IE wheeled-vehicle terminology remains an assertion, largely unanalysed and undefended, the genetic-inheritance explanation has been researched and supported in specialized studies by linguists (Specht 1944: 99-103; Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1984: 718-38; review in Anthony 1991: 198-201; Meid 1994; Mallory & Adams forthcoming). The simplest and most widely accepted explanation of the linguistic evidence is that the speakers of PIE were familiar with and had a vocabulary for wheeled vehicles. Coleman's (1988) brief linguistic dissent stands alone against a body of scholarship to which he did not refer. If we accept the majority interpretation, PIE should have existed as a unified speech community after wheeled vehicles were invented. Archaeological evidence places this event after 3500 BC. >>>>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 5 19:16:45 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 11:16:45 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042294.23782.256470914623546776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< There doesn't have to be evangelism for horse rituals or chariots to spread around. If you look at the culture described by Gimbutas it looks a lot more like recent and/or modern Altaic or Uralic cultures than anything else. If you compare the Scythian culture described by Herodotus and others with the culture of the Hun, Magyars and Mongols, there are a great many parallels. Yet, it is suggested that these people had different language associations. Well, I never said textual materials were not relevant. However, can we base theories on the spread of languages on them? I certainly would not trust such theories. We see Persians using cuneiform and Aramaic scripts that they borrowed. Assyrians certainly had their own chariots. These type of things crossed linguistic and ethnic barriers. So, I ask how do we know the Sintashta or related cultures spoke Indo-European? Why couldn't they have spoken languages related to Hurrian, the Caucasian languages or Uralic (among others)? >>>> On Nov.5, 1998, I posted D. Anthony's views on why PIE existed as a speech community after 3500 B.C. He says the wheels, vehicle technology could have been invented by others. (Archaeology shows the inventions in the Neareast). But at the time of wheels, vehicle technology, PIE existed as one single community. This is after 3500 B.C. On similar lines: It is extremely unlikely that Sintashta culture is not related to IA culture. Several American, Russian and W. European scholarly works say so. Even if we allow that Sintashta chariots were invented by a tiny group, extinct long ago, PIE folks as one single community must have borrowed the chariotry from that extinct group and developed the complex of horse myth and ritual together in a small region. At the best, Late Common IE people must be neighbors for Indic azvamedha and Roman equus, divine horse-pair myths, etc., to be similar in surprisingly small details. Otherwise, one has to explain widespread conversion by 'horse cult' monks from Rome to India. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Nov 5 20:27:32 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 12:27:32 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042295.23782.18236187988187692921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Thinking the unthinkable, what if IE languages were already being> >spoken in these regions 6,000 BC or even earlier and some other> invaders > >brought the horse and disappeared? Why not? Haven't IE peoples invaded> >each others' lands afterwards? Didn't other invaders disappear from> >history with their language?[snip]> Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12)> Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European languages and archaeology. David W.> Anthony. [snip]> > Wheels and the date of the Indo-European spread> Reconstructed proto-Indo-European (PIE) represents a> real ancient vocabulary that is potentially of> inestimable value to archaeologists. Everything seems thinkable, given the serious methodological problems of matching archaeology and language, to establish chronology from, say, late 3rd millennium BC. But the idea of starting with bronze-age lexemes seems promising... Since there are lots of theoretical possibilities, let us also look at some transportation lexemes and IE synonyms, from Carl Darling Buck to formulate some statistically testable hypotheses: anchor (10.89): jakor (Russ.), lenger, kotva, sidro (Scr.), akker (ON.) sail (10.88): parus (Russ.), jedro (Scr.), seol (NIr.) mast (10.87): macta (Russ.), stiebas (Lith.), albero (It.), mast (OHG) raft (10.84): ud.upa (Skt.), plot (Russ.), sielis (Lith.), flox (OHG) boat (10.83): nau, plava (Skt.), lodka (Russ.), bamac, cun (Scr.), scif, nacho (OHG), linter, cymba, scapha (Lat.) Axle (10.77): aks.a (Skt.), os' (Russ.), ahsa (OHG), eje (Sp.) Yoke (10.78): yuga (Skt.), jaram (Scr.), joh, juh (OHG), giogo (It.) Wheel (10.76): cakra (Skt.), koleso (Russ.), ratas, tekinis (Lith.), rad (OHG), hvel, hjo_l (ON.), rota (Lat.) Cart (10.75): va_s'a (Av.), ya_na, va_hana, anas (Skt.), povozka, telega (Russ.), kola, taljige (Scr.), wagon, reita, carra (OHG), reio, vagn, kartr (ON.), vettura, carro (It.), karr (Br.) Street (10.73): rathya_, vi_thi (Skt.), ulica (Russ.), galve (Lith.), gazza, stra_za (OHG); stroeti, gata (ON), via, plate_a (Lat.) path (10.72): paO, advan (Av.), path, ma_rga (Skt.); stezja, tropa (Russ.), takas (Lith.), pfad, sti_ga (OHG), sentiero (It.), gwenodenn, ravent (Br.) road (10.71): frayana (Av.), adhvan (Skt.), daroga, put (Russ.), kelias (Lith.), weg (OHG), vegr, braut, gata (ON), strada, cammino, via (It.), hent (Br.) There should be other lexemes (semantic clusters) which are as ancient in cognate languages.Is there a linguistic method to isolate and date these lexemes, consistent with, for e.g. the Sintashta archaeological finds of solid-wheeled chariot fragments? Same question goes for bronze-age terms for ores, refining, forging and metals, since some hardened metal components are also integral to early bronze-age transport systems. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 5 20:37:08 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 12:37:08 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042297.23782.11402867504969150847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >for e.g. the Sintashta archaeological finds of >solid-wheeled chariot fragments? Sintashta chariots had spoked wheels. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Nov 5 21:00:20 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 13:00:20 -0800 Subject: [Re: Paired Horse and PIE breakup] Message-ID: <161227042298.23782.13143183840039150838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan, I am looking at the sintashta burial image reconstructed by Prof. Koryakova; f.http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/sintashta/sintashta2.htm This is dated to ca. 2000 BC; the wheel looks solid in this picture. Are there other reports related to spoked wheels and what dates? Regards, Kalyanaraman owner-indology at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK wrote: > >for e.g. the Sintashta archaeological finds of > >solid-wheeled chariot fragments? > > Sintashta chariots had spoked wheels. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 5 22:00:12 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 14:00:12 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042302.23782.17908824202789587153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pl. see: Figure 1. Sintashta, burial 28, imprints of spoked wheels. AND Figure 4. Sintashta, burial 12, reconstruction of vehicle. (Figure 4 has 10 spoked wheels) Reference: The origin of the true chariot, Antiquity, 70, 1996: 934-9 Regards N. Ganesan *********************************** Dear Ganesan, I am looking at the sintashta burial image reconstructed by Prof. Koryakova; f.http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/sintashta/sintashta2.ht= m This is dated to ca. 2000 BC; the wheel looks solid in this picture. Are there other reports related to spoked wheels and what dates? Regards, Kalyanaraman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Nov 5 22:12:58 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 14:12:58 -0800 Subject: [Re: Paired Horse and PIE breakup] Message-ID: <161227042306.23782.13125663799371080955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, It will be interesting to ascertain, from the archaeological reports, if the dates are the same for both the burials? Perhaps, European Archaeology journals may have some leads? If Prof. Koryokova is listening, the Prof. may have some answers... Kalyanaraman owner-indology at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK wrote: > Pl. see: Figure 1. Sintashta, burial 28, imprints > of spoked wheels. > AND > Figure 4. Sintashta, burial 12, reconstruction > of vehicle. > (Figure 4 has 10 spoked wheels) > Reference: The origin of the true chariot, Antiquity, > 70, 1996: 934-9 > > Regards > N. Ganesan > *********************************** > Dear Ganesan, > I am looking at the sintashta burial image reconstructed by > Prof. Koryakova; > f.http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/sintashta/sintashta2.ht= > m > This is dated to ca. 2000 BC; the wheel looks solid in this picture. > Are there other reports related to spoked wheels and what dates? > Regards, > Kalyanaraman > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Nov 5 23:02:48 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 15:02:48 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042304.23782.14338571949522858416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > Otherwise, one has to explain widespread conversion by > 'horse cult' monks from Rome to India. Again you have ignored the fact that culture does not require monks to spread. The extremely close similarities between the Scythians and the Hsiung-nu, for example. Also, the similarities described are really as striking as you seem to suggest. For example, have horse-human burials been found in India? They were common in Altaic-speaking and over the area inhabited by Uralic speakers. How about burials with a horse's head combined with a human body? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 03:58:08 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 19:58:08 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042308.23782.7806081704325023340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > > > > On 4 Nov. Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > > > >Again the so-called "Scythian" culture was found among many peoples > >including Altaic and Uralic. In fact, we have much more hard evidence > >of this culture among the latter peoples. I might add that until fairly > >recently the Scythian cultures were also considered "Turanian." > > Both Western (North Pontic) and Eastern (Saka) Scythians spoke > Iranian dialects which is attested by Greek and Indian written sources, by > etymology of place-names and so on. We don't know for sure what the original Scythians spoke. Some of the Scythian vocabulary given by Herodotus has been analyzed as Altaic. Some works given by McGovern proposing that Scythians were Altaic speakers are: Peisker's _Die Alteren Beziehungen der Slaven zu Turko-Tartaren_; Treidler's "Die Skythen und inhre Nachbarvolker," _Archiv fur Anthropologie_, 1914, pp. 280ff and Minns _Scythians and Greeks_. He also mentions Niebuhr and Neumann. The Scythians may have adopted other languages in places they went such as the case with the Parthians. Minns felt the Scythians were Altaic people who had incorporated large numbers of Iranians as they moved across their territory. > > What is the "hard evidence" of Scythian culture among "Altaic and > Uralic" tribes? Is there any evidence at all in favour of your point of > view that Scythian's language was not Iranian? There is no hard evidence one way or another. However, there is plenty of hard evidence that Altaic and at least one Uralic people lived lives almost exactly similar to that described for the Scythians. OTOH, the first completely verifiable Indo-Iranians in Persia practiced a culture that was as different as night is to day. In medieval times, Europeans called Huns, Avars, Magyars and related peoples "Scythians." Mostly this was a cultural description, although there may have been so "racial" connotation also (see Hippocrates). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 06:03:57 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 22:03:57 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042312.23782.1471139310778274289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: > It would be very helpful to know what these words are supposed > to be derived from. I agree. Also, the fact that there are no morphological or phonological variation between languages only suggests that the terms existed in PIE. However, it doesn't prove they were not borrowed by PIE itself. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Fri Nov 6 05:02:19 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 00:02:19 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042310.23782.11857574237271592461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Finally, there is simply no internal phonetic or > morphological evidence for borrowing within the > relevant Indo-European vocabulary. None of these > terms - and there are at least 35, when the six roots > are multiplied by the number of IE languages in which > they appear - is a phonological or morphological > misfit within its language lineage (Gamkrelidze & > Ivanov 1984: 718-38; Meid 1994; Mallory & Adams > forthcoming). If the wheeled-vehicle vocabulary > originated in an Indo-European daughter language > after the separation of the IE languages into > numerous distinct phonological and morphological > systems, then the phonetic and morphological traits > of that language should be detectable in at least > some of the borrowed vocabulary, given the > phonological distinctiveness of the IE daughter > languages. The absence of such evidence indicates > that the IE wheeled-vehicle vocabulary was not > borrowed, but inherited from PIE. I bet all or almost all Altaic languages have some word like "radyo", "radiyo", "radio", "aradiyo" or something like it for radio, but it hardly means that they invented it or that they did not borrow the word. Words like this are tricky. Look at the word "cek" (where c is the voiced fricative i..e dg) in Karachay-Balkar. It means to 'hitch' an animal, or to get something or someone to pull something and sounds remarkably like 'yoke'. Furthermore, it is very close to /chek/ which in Turkish means "to pull". Does this mean that it is impossible that /cek/ came from IE for 'yoke' or that /chek/ meaning 'to pull' came from /cek/? No. The word for the ox-collar (or even the yoke) for animals is 'boyunduruk' clearly from 'boyun' meaning neck. Does this mean that they invented the yoke and did not borrow it? No. Things like this can't be done in isolation. Other languages have to be also involved in conclusions of this type. Furthermore, the first time something is noted in writing does not mean that the word belongs to that language. > None of these problems has been explicitly addressed > or acknowledged in print, beyond a brief discussion > in Current Anthropology (Renfrew 1988). While the > diffusionary scenario for IE wheeled-vehicle > terminology remains an assertion, largely unanalysed > and undefended, the genetic-inheritance explanation > has been researched and supported in specialized > studies by linguists (Specht 1944: 99-103; > Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1984: 718-38; review in Anthony > 1991: 198-201; Meid 1994; Mallory & Adams > forthcoming). It can be researched as much as possible. The conclusions do not follow without uncertainty from the evidence. The simplest and most widely accepted > explanation of the linguistic evidence is that the > speakers of PIE were familiar with and had a > vocabulary for wheeled vehicles. Coleman's (1988) > brief linguistic dissent stands alone against a body > of scholarship to which he did not refer. If we > accept the majority interpretation, PIE should have > existed as a unified speech community after wheeled > vehicles were invented. Archaeological evidence > places this event after 3500 BC. It would be very helpful to know what these words are supposed to be derived from. After all, it is hard to know if the words that these cart-chariot words are supposed to be derived from are not really words derived from the words referring to cart-chariot. For example, one cannot be sure that some word meaning 'nail' is derived from a similar word meaning 'penis' assuming that the word for body parts came first. it could be other way around because the word for penis might have been named in slang after 'nail'. I have a paper on things like this in .doc format which I would email to people who want to read it as an example to what I am talking about. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Fri Nov 6 05:20:13 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 00:20:13 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042315.23782.14664317036986582482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > > Everything seems thinkable, given the serious methodological problems of > matching archaeology and language, to establish chronology from, say, late 3rd > millennium BC. But the idea of starting with bronze-age lexemes seems > promising... Since there are lots of theoretical possibilities, let us also > look at some transportation lexemes and IE synonyms, from Carl Darling Buck to > formulate some statistically testable hypotheses: Wheels cannot be made to hold up or hold together without some means to fasten them. The earliest ones I have seen was in a book on Sumeria circa 2600 BC. In order to construct this planks have to be cut from wood, which means that they have to be sawed lengthwise, then nailed together. At least bronze tools would be needed. Secondly, it would have to be in an area which has wood. The Ukrainian steppes is hardly the place to be doing wood-working, and indeed no steppe area is suited for it. Third, even in areas where there is wood, they would have to have the bronze tools, and they would have to either buy them someplace or make them there. Fourth, if they have to buy them, then in all likelihood those who sold it to them were probably already making wheels, and carts too. The fact that they all have cognate words only means that they could have all borrowed these from the same source. > Axle (10.77): aks.a (Skt.), os' (Russ.), ahsa (OHG), eje (Sp.) Look at Sumerian for wheel; gigir; Turkic gicir (squeaking sound of a wheel), teker (wheel), togerek (round, in Karachay-Balkar), kerek (in Hungarian), etc. What does this prove? > > Yoke (10.78): yuga (Skt.), jaram (Scr.), joh, juh (OHG), giogo (It.) KB for yoke is 'cek'. Turkish for 'to pull' is /chek/. The real question to ask here is from what word is 'yuga' derived? If it is derived from nothing, it is highly suspect. People when they find new invention stretch presently used words analogically, unless as in the recent few centuries scientists concatenate words from Greek and Latin to create new words like isothermal, entropy, etc. Chances are no such thing happened and people used some other commonly used word in extension to apply to the gadget. > Wheel (10.76): cakra (Skt.), koleso (Russ.), ratas, tekinis (Lith.), rad > (OHG), hvel, hjo_l (ON.), rota (Lat.) Some people doggedly create their own words for new inventions. For example although words like 'kanser', and 'ulser' or 'konsert' or 'konser' are used by some, others invent their own new words like 'rak' (for cancer) etc. > Cart (10.75): va_s'a (Av.), ya_na, va_hana, anas (Skt.), povozka, telega > (Russ.), kola, taljige (Scr.), wagon, reita, carra (OHG), reio, vagn, kartr > (ON.), vettura, carro (It.), karr (Br.) An automobile is called a 'car' in English as well as the wagons on trains. It's probably similar analogical reasoning that would have been used. > There should be other lexemes (semantic clusters) which are as ancient in > cognate languages.Is there a linguistic method to isolate and date these > lexemes, consistent with, for e.g. the Sintashta archaeological finds of > solid-wheeled chariot fragments? If the above words are derived from native words, it might help to know from which words they are derived. > Same question goes for bronze-age terms for ores, refining, forging and > metals, since some hardened metal components are also integral to early > bronze-age transport systems. It would be impossible to make wheels hold together without some kind of metal, or even to make wheels. IT could not have occured before the bronze age. The earliest wheels to be made seem to have been solid pieces. First you cut a tree lengthwise to make planks. They you cut semicircles from planks. Then you cut semicircular holes in the middles for the axle. You put two of these semicircles together to make a circular piece. You do the same to another pair. Then you put these pairs on top of one another and rotate one pair 90 degrees and then drive nails thru both sets to hold them together. This requires the ability to make planks, drill holes, and then drive nails. That would require at least bronze preferably iron. This still leaves you without a metallic axle, only a whole in wood so that you'd have to go slowly and that is probably why oxen were used. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Fri Nov 6 06:19:50 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 01:19:50 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042317.23782.10921325919201184750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > > Both Western (North Pontic) and Eastern (Saka) Scythians spoke > Iranian dialects which is attested by Greek and Indian written sources, by > etymology of place-names and so on. Uralians, with the only exception of I have been keenly interested in pursuing this but so far I have been greatly disappointed. The main reason I was interested was to check on some of what Miziev writes. Unfortunately, for some reason, people only seem to talk about what others write about Scythians, and Sakas etc but never seem to read anything of the original sources. If they do, they seem to go to great lengths to hide their knowledge. Miziev says that the Soviet scholars control Iranian studies and that the Iranists control Turkic studies and decide what can be written. Where are the sources (in English) in which these words from Scythian and other early nomadic languages have been published and etymologized? would it not be interesting for everyone to have access to this? This is especially interesting for me for various reasons. Among them is a book by Tuna in which almost 200 words (naturally displaying regular sound correspondences) between Turkic and Sumerian are shown. In addition Miziev has a book in which he etymologizes some Scythian and other words as also Turkic. It is hard to get at the truth when the original sources are lacking. Maybe some people have been doctoring info. It is not impossible since we have all read about such doctoring even in recent years in fields like biology, so it would not be unthinkable in fields like linguistics which was (unfortunately) so closely tied to politics. > The Hungarians in the middle of the 1st century AD, were always forest > hunters, not the steppe pastoralists. The same may be said about proto-Turks > until 3rd century BC, when they came to the steppes from their forest > Siberian homeland. What could these peoples have in common with the problem > that we are now discussing: the emergence of the war-chariot in the western > part of the Eurasian steppe in the beginning of the 2-n mill. BC? That part sounds fictional considering the 165 Sumero-Turkic cognates. I will leave out the fact that Suleymanov says this number is now about 400. > > The word "Turanian" goes back to the Iranian epic, where it is > used to designate the Eastern Iranian nomadic tribes. As far as I know, > the word has nothing in common with "Turk" and related words. That is also false. Romans called the Etruscans Tusci/Tursi. Turan was a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ is the root for birth and begetting in Turkic. That is not all. There is more, even up to and including the idea that 'troy' was really 'tur' and the Greek language created the consonant cluster. I posted a list of cognates between Chuvash and Etruscan at one time. > What is the "hard evidence" of Scythian culture among "Altaic and > Uralic" tribes? Is there any evidence at all in favour of your point of > view that Scythian's language was not Iranian? Will you kindly present it, > it would be very interesting to learn what sources did you use. > Best regards, Here is something which I find remarkable (but maybe unrelated). There is a passage in Herodotus in which he describes the Scythians cooking a bull by using its bones as fuel and putting the meat inside the stomach of the bull, and adding some water. There is a passage from Miziev in which there is a description of this from relatively recently, in which a pit is dug, a fire built, and the stomach of the animal (with the meat inside)is put in the pit and cooked. Miziev uses this (like many scholars who try to equate cultures and languages) as proof that Scythians were Turkic. However, I looked around, and note that Turkic for digging is /kaz/. This is one of the Tuna cognages between it and sumerian. The l~r Turkic would have been /kar/. IT also happens (almost miraculously :-)) that the word for 'cooking pot' in Turkic is 'kazan', and the word for stomach is 'karin'. It is quite easy to guess the rest. Furthermore, the word 'kazak' means 'nomad'. Why from 'kaz' (to dig)? Why is the word for cooking pot i.e. kazan (from 'kaz' meaning 'to dig'). And why is the word for stomach 'karin'? To me it is now quite clear, especially after seeing Tuna's book. It also explains why there are people north of the Caucasus with the name "kashog" many centuries before they allegedly came there. In any case, since this is a list in Indology, it is not too far from the mark to discuss "Sythians". Can someone who has access to the original sources tell us how their words are said to be IE. I will dig up a bad translation of Miziev's book(s) and post the words which he etymologizes as Turkic. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 09:36:25 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 01:36:25 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042323.23782.13461157514527073786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >We don't know for sure what the original Scythians spoke. Some of the > >Scythian vocabulary given by Herodotus has been analyzed as Altaic. > > Herodotus isn't very explicit about the Scythian vocabulary, and some > of the things he claims are almost certainly bogus, like his > explanation of the name "Arimaspians" as from Scythian "one" > and "eye", which can be neither Ossetian ("one" = , "eye" > = ) nor Turkic ("one" = , "eye" = ~ ), nor > any other known Eurasian language at all (I've checked Mark > Rosenfelder's numbers pages and was unable to find any language with > a word for "one" similar to *). You have to be careful. There may be other words that signify "one" such as "single" in English. I'd say the word > "Arimaspians" sounds very much as if it contains Iranian > "horse". > > We know that before the first documented Turkic presence in Central > Asia (8th. century Orkhon inscriptions, and before that a 6th century > Turkic document in Sogdian script found in Mongolia), most of the > languages spoken in Central Asia ("Russian" and "Chinese" Turkestan) > were Iranian. There is a large number of Sogdian, Saka-Khotanese and > Old Khwarezmian documents that testify to this. No, you can't tell what people spoke by a few recovered documents. For example, there are many old tombstones in insular Southeast Asia with Arabic inscriptions. Yet these do not indicate the language spoken by the people. Likewise you can find plenty of evidence of Arabic right after the Arab invasion of Central Asia. The Sakas who invaded India quickly adopted Indic languages; the Parthians adopted Persian; the Mongols of Samarkand adopted Turkish, etc., etc. What is more important to me is that Iranians that we know of with certainty were far from the Scythians in cultural milieu. But the Mongols, Huns, Hsiung-nu, Avars, Kipchaks and the like possessed nearly identical cultures. > > Interpretations of this as Turkic have been attempted, but one can > equally turn it into Akkadian (as Doerfer has done) or into > Indo-European (my non-serious shot at it was: *siu:ntete leudhskom, > po:ng(w)ete ju:s duktom). Given the inadequacy of the Chinese > writing system for rendering foreign words, anything's possible. > I'm afraid the same thing can be said regarding most of the Iranian etymologies you have given. Practically all the words you cited, if given time and energy, could be linked to Uralic, Altaic or any other non-IE language. According to recent archaeological finds, the Scythians had extended all the way to Mongolia and Siberia. Do we find Indo-Iranian substratum influence here? I think there is plenty of evidence of Uralic and Altaic (or proto-, pre-) in the region of the Urals and Caucasus. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 6 13:35:28 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 05:35:28 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042328.23782.9091305540976652469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. H. M. Hubey attributes this to me. I never wrote this. It is Prof. David W. Anthony's article in the well-known "Antiquity". I quoted verbatim Anthony's words and gave the reference. Regards, N. Ganesan [[Aside: Many side-tracks that have come up were given due consideration in Prof. Anthony's researches for decades. He is an archaeologist too!] ----------------- N. Ganesan wrote: > > Finally, there is simply no internal phonetic or > morphological evidence for borrowing within the > relevant Indo-European vocabulary. None of these > terms - and there are at least 35, when the six roots > are multiplied by the number of IE languages in which > they appear - is a phonological or morphological > misfit within its language lineage (Gamkrelidze & > Ivanov 1984: 718-38; Meid 1994; Mallory & Adams > forthcoming). If the wheeled-vehicle vocabulary > originated in an Indo-European daughter language > after the separation of the IE languages into > numerous distinct phonological and morphological > systems, then the phonetic and morphological traits > of that language should be detectable in at least > some of the borrowed vocabulary, given the > phonological distinctiveness of the IE daughter > languages. The absence of such evidence indicates > that the IE wheeled-vehicle vocabulary was not > borrowed, but inherited from PIE. I bet all or almost all Altaic languages have some word like "radyo", "radiyo", "radio", "aradiyo" or something like it for radio, but it hardly means that they invented it or that they did not borrow the word. [large snip] ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Nov 6 13:37:17 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 05:37:17 -0800 Subject: [Re: Paired Horse and PIE breakup] Message-ID: <161227042330.23782.4654137562010022010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Vidal wrote:[snip] > But I do agree with Renfrew that there's a striking similarity> between the expansion of Indo-European languages across Europe and> the expansion of agriculture across the same area. It has to be> borne in mind, however, that this expansion was not entirely gradual> as Renfrew has it, but proceeded in several stages. [nsip] I remember reading Schaffer's presentation in the Michigan conference in October 1997, (about the untenable archaeological or linguistic bases for the Aryan migration theories and about indigenous discontinuities and internal migrations evidenced by hundreds of IVC sites)where he (together with his co-author) states (to the effect) that Renfrew even falsified archaeological evidence to explain his agricultural expansion route theories. Maybe, someone has ready access to the paper to cite more precisely. Kalyanaraman. ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 6 13:40:40 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 05:40:40 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042333.23782.7244177503184193235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>H.M.Hubey wrote: >> It would be very helpful to know what these words are supposed >> to be derived from. P. Manansala writes: >I agree. Also, the fact that there are no morphological or >phonological >variation between languages only suggests that the terms existed in >PIE. However, it doesn't prove they were not borrowed by PIE itself. David Anthony ALSO agrees. All he is saying is PIE as one single speech community existed in 3500 B.C. in rather a small area when wheels and wagans were invented. He says the wheels were invented in the Neareast and not by PIE. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 6 14:32:08 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 06:32:08 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042337.23782.13863425243118563253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Otherwise, one has to explain widespread conversion by > 'horse cult' monks from Rome to India. P. K. Manansala writes: *Again you have ignored the fact that culture does not require monks *to spread. The extremely close similarities between the Scythians *and the Hsiung-nu, for example. I used the word 'monks' because I was alerted: Buddhism's spread must also be considered. The spread of Mahayana Buddhism has very much to do with writing and literacy. Pali Canon in Hinayana was spread aurally, whereas Mahayana went great distances because of its visual imagery. Indian monks were in China explaining the lankavataara, saddharma pundarika, lalitavistara, avatamsaka ... suutrams. Chinese pilgrims, Hsuan Tsang the prince amidst them, came searching for pi.taka texts. Of course, for Islam, Koran and its preachers played a significant role. A singe book spreads the message what it will take for a dedicated team decades. Nowadays, movies - Little Buddha, Richard Gere. I want to know parallels to IE horse complex of myth/ritual that has spread great distances (eg., Rome and India) in preliterate/nonliterate societies. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcv at WXS.NL Fri Nov 6 08:01:23 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 08:01:23 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <364273CF.26123D49@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042319.23782.18035562434225742545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >We don't know for sure what the original Scythians spoke. Some of the >Scythian vocabulary given by Herodotus has been analyzed as Altaic. Herodotus isn't very explicit about the Scythian vocabulary, and some of the things he claims are almost certainly bogus, like his explanation of the name "Arimaspians" as from Scythian "one" and "eye", which can be neither Ossetian ("one" = , "eye" = ) nor Turkic ("one" = , "eye" = ~ ), nor any other known Eurasian language at all (I've checked Mark Rosenfelder's numbers pages and was unable to find any language with a word for "one" similar to *). I'd say the word "Arimaspians" sounds very much as if it contains Iranian "horse". We know that before the first documented Turkic presence in Central Asia (8th. century Orkhon inscriptions, and before that a 6th century Turkic document in Sogdian script found in Mongolia), most of the languages spoken in Central Asia ("Russian" and "Chinese" Turkestan) were Iranian. There is a large number of Sogdian, Saka-Khotanese and Old Khwarezmian documents that testify to this. Additionally, another IE language, Tocharian, was spoken in the Tarim basin. Less is known with certainty about the Bactrian and Scytho-Sarmatian languages, but it is generally thought that modern Pashto of Afghanistan derives from Bactrian, and modern Ossetic of the Northern Caucasus derives from Scytho-Sarmatian. Likewise, Yaghnobi, spoken near Samarkand, is the modern decendant of Sogdian (most Sogdian speakers in Central Asia adopted Turkic languages or Persian, locally known as Tajiki. The evidence for the Iranian character of Scythian, apart from the identification Saka==Scythian (and Saka-Khotanese is a well-documented Middle Iranian lg.), is based on ancient glosses (Hesychius gives "melition: a Scythian drink", clearly from the IE word for "honey, mead", Herodotus' Oior-pata "man-killer" (=Amazon), has been connected with IE *wi:ros, Skt. vi:ra- "man"), and the evidence of toponymics, especially the South Russian/Ukrainian river names Don, Dnestr, Dnepr < PIran *da:nu "river", cf. Oss. "water, river", * and *, the "front" and "back" rivers, respectively. Another Iranian etymology is Caucasus < *xrohu-kasi- "ice-shiny". Now it's perfectly possible that the Scythian tribes in the Ukraine had assimilated large numbers of non-Iranian peoples. Herodotus tells us that when the Scythians arrived in Europe they drove out the original inhabitants, the Cimmerians (linguistic affiliation unknown, possibly Indo-European of the Daco-Thracian group). And the "Scythian farmers" described by Herodotus are considered by many to be Proto-Slavs. Likewise, it is possible that the Scythian/Saka and Sogdian tribes living to the north and east of the literate areas along the "Silk road" were mixed with Yeniseian or Altaic peoples. Precisely because no documents are known (or ever will be) from these areas, we just don't know. The same, or worse, goes for the linguistic affiliations of the Xiong-nu, the (Western) Huns, the HuNa or White Huns or Hephthalites, the Juan-Juan or Ju-Jan, the Avars or Varchonites, the Sabir, Utrigur, Kutrigur and Onogur "Huns", the Toba (Tabgach), the Hsien-Pei, etc. All of these have been identified as Turkic or Mongolian based more on geographical than on linguistic criteria. The reason for this is that linguistic evidence is in most cases completely absent. The question of the Hunnish language has been treated extensively by Gerhard Doerfer in his article "Zur Sprache der Hunnen", Central Asiatic Journal XVII/1973, 1-50. He concludes that we just can't conclude anything. The Xiong-Nu may not even have been the same people or spoken the same language as Atilla's Huns or the Hun.a (Hephthalites, White Huns) of Afghanistan/India. The glosses given by Byzantine authors of "Hunnish" words are all either Slavic or Daco-Thracian, words that the Huns had picked up after their arrival in the Hungarian plain. The names of most Hunnish leaders are Germanic (e.g. Attila) or Iranian, with only a few (the oldest) unidentified, and therefore probably belonging to the original Hunnish language, but those have no clear connection with any other living or documented language. As to the Xiong-nu, there appear to be some connections with Altaic (*ta"ngri- "sky", given as Xion-nu "tch'eng-li" in Chinese sources), but also with Yeniseian (Xiong-nu "stone" ~ Yen. ~ "stone"). Given that the Xiong-nu were the earliest known people to dominate the eastern steppes, it is not unlikely that these words are borrowings into Turkic, Mongolian and Yeniseian from Xiong-nu. For the rest, all we have of the Xiong-nu language is the Chinese transcription of the sentence "Send out the army, capture the leader", given as: sio^g-tjeg-t'iei li at d-ka^ng b'uok-kuk g'ju t'uk-ta^ng Interpretations of this as Turkic have been attempted, but one can equally turn it into Akkadian (as Doerfer has done) or into Indo-European (my non-serious shot at it was: *siu:ntete leudhskom, po:ng(w)ete ju:s duktom). Given the inadequacy of the Chinese writing system for rendering foreign words, anything's possible. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Nov 6 16:31:45 1998 From: hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Michael Shapiro) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 08:31:45 -0800 Subject: Arabian Sea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042342.23782.6248668184138720002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> arab sAgar. --M.C.Shapiro ============================================================================= Michael C. Shapiro Phone: (206) 543-4996 Dept. Asian Languages & Literature Fax: (206) 685-4268 University of Washington hindimcs at u.washington.edu Mail Box 353521 Seattle, WA 98195-3521 ============================================================================= On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > Can someone tell me the Hindi name for the Arabian Sea? > > Thank you. > > With best wishes, > > Ruth Schmidt > > > *********************************************** > Ruth Laila Schmidt > Dept of East European and Oriental Studies > University of Oslo > P.O. Box 1030 Blindern > N-0315 Oslo, Norway > Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 > Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 > Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no > From svadchi at AGF.FR Fri Nov 6 08:19:54 1998 From: svadchi at AGF.FR (SVADCHII Jean-Claude) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 09:19:54 +0100 Subject: Tr: [Paired Horse and PIE breakup] Message-ID: <161227042321.23782.12374146026775468026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Date:??? Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:27:46 PST > From:??? "S.Kalyanaraman" < kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET > > Subject: Re: [Paired Horse and PIE breakup] > > > Both in Indian asvamedha and Roman ritual, the right side horse > > of paired draught was sacrificed... = > > > Are there any textual bases for this statement? = You will find it for Rome in Plutarch, Roman Questions, 97. The parallel between the Equos October at Rome and the azvamedha has been studied by Georges Dumezil, lastly in his Archaic Roman Religion. You will find there other parallel rites : the suovetaurilia and the sautraamaNi, a sacrifice intended to give strength to Indra. The Matronalia rites, already obscure to the Romans, could be explained using Vedic parallels. If we turn to Dumezil?s explanations of the mythical history of Rome, I think the best ones concern Numa Pompilius, heir of the indoeuropean stuff which gave birth in India to the Vedic Mitra, and Camillus, Mater Matuta? protege, heir of indoeuropean stuff which gave birth to Surya?s myths in relation with the night, his mother, and USas, his adoptive mother (=Mater Matuta)(cf the history of KarNa). Again the battle of the Horatii against the Curiatii = the third one (Trita) against the Triple One (or the Tricephal). Romulus? explanation is much more complex, since it has a better parallel with the Germanic god Njordhr. Born a Vane, he dedicated himself to Odhinn, as is illustrated by Saxo Grammaticus? hero Hadingus, a reelaboration of Njordhr by Saxo (Dumezil : From myth to fiction; the saga of Hadingus). Similarly, Romulus, at first a shepherd and a twin (third indo-european function = abundance, wealth, fecundity, health, pleasure, multiplicity) takes the part of the creator and becomes at the end of his reign quite similar to Varuna. But his deification in Quirinus, a third-function god, shows clearly he was not by essence Varuna?s cousin. Rome and India have then a notable common heritage. But we find other parallels with India after 1000 AD in the " cycle des Narbonnais ", a legend probably vehicled into France by the Wisigoths. For example, we discover the parallel of Rudra as a general of a ghostly army. See " Archeologie de l?Epopee Medievale " by Joel H. Grisward (Paris 1981), a most serious book. How could the heirs of the Indo-Europeans keep alive during so many thousands of years those military rites and legends without practising war ? Did they truly expand several miles a generation ? I doubt it. Could the " cycle des Narbonnais " be a heritage 4, 5 or 6 000 years old ? Maybe it could be better explained if the ancestors of the Germans (the same for the Romans) did not lose contact from the ancestors of the Indo-Iranians too far in the past. Jean-Claude Svadchii From mcv at WXS.NL Fri Nov 6 09:27:55 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 09:27:55 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <19981105184823.20921.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042324.23782.1227418662310758427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Many guesses for PIE splitup dates are possible. But the > evidence points to a more likely scenario that PIE people > lived as one single speech community in rather a small > region after 3500 B.C.. Want to know the reasons > why PIE split up before 6000 B.C.? I will appreciate > Summary of main points for a PIE split date like > 6000 B.C. or references. Renfrew puts PIE around or before 6000 BC (the date of the earliest farmers in Greece and the Balkans) or even earlier, in Anatolia (Catal Huyuk, c. 7000 BC). Such dates are impossibly early, and Renfrew's arguments are linguistically unsound in other respects (if Hittite is the direct descendant of the "stay behinds" in Anatolia, and Greek the direct descendant of the language of the first farmers that crossed over from Anatolia to Greece, then we would expect Greek to be closest to Hittite. In fact, Greek is much more similar to Sanskrit than to Hittite). But I do agree with Renfrew that there's a striking similarity between the expansion of Indo-European languages across Europe and the expansion of agriculture across the same area. It has to be borne in mind, however, that this expansion was not entirely gradual as Renfrew has it, but proceeded in several stages. It is easy to see how this came about: the Anatolian farmers, when they crossed over into Greece, Bulgaria and southern parts of ex-Yugoslavia and Romania, found circumstances similar to the ones they were used to in Anatolia: basically hilly terrain and Mediterranean climate. Further north, in temperate Europe (Ukrainian and Hungarian steppe, North European flatlands), conditions were quite different, and the Mediterranean farming techniques simply did not work. That is why in the period from 7000-5500 BC agriculture spreads only to the Western Mediterranean, but stays confined to the Balkans elsewhere (Karanovo, Starcevo, Cris,, Ko"ro"s cultures). It is in the Hungarian Ko"ro"s area that the transition to temperate conditions is made, and c. 5500 BC we see the second stage of Neolithic expansion: the "Danubian" or Linear Ware (LBK) culture, that quickly expands from Hungary north-west across Germany to the Netherlands and from Hungary north-east to Czechia, Slovakia and Poland. A little later, the Dnepr-Donets culture expands (from Poland/Belarus?) into the Ukrainian and Caspian forest-steppes. My theory is that these movements c. 5500 BC represent the breakup of PIE (Proto-Hittite staying behind in the Balkan area, the Ko"ro"s/LBK groups moving east and west to eventually become Western and Eastern Indo-European). Admittedly, the common vocabulary for wheeled transport is a problem for my theory (not as much as for Renfrew's version, of course). If wheeled transport was invented c. 3500 BC, there is still a gap of two millennia between my date for PIE breakup and the wheel. There is of course the possibility that future archaeological finds may push the date a bit further back [we are dealing with perishable wooden, non-metallic, artifacts after all], but it seems unlikely that wheeled transport existed before 4000 BC, and 5500 BC is too much to hope for. But at the same time, what I am arguing for is an early Indo-European-speaking area which had not yet expanded into its present area (France, Great Britain & Ireland, Italy, Spain, Central Asia, Iran, N. India had not yet been Indo-Europeanized by 3500 BC). We can roughly compare the area occupied by IE between 5500 and 3500 with the present area of the Romance languages, and likewise the linguistic distance between the IE languages at the time (Romance is some 2000 years old). Now there are plenty of examples of tecnical vocabulary that has spread across the Romance area since the fall of the Roman Empire, which might be confused for original Proto-Romance (i.e. Latin) words is we didn't have Latin to know they weren't. the classical example is pseudo-Latin *, "two policemen on horses". But the Latin for "horses" was , and "gendarmes" as such did not exist in Roman times. Furthermore, most of the words in question are derived from common IE roots (*weg^h- "to carry" -> "to tranport, to ride", *ak^s- "armpit, arm, shoulder, wing" -> "axle", *kwel-, *kwekwel- "to turn, to spin" -> "wheel, chariot", *retH-/*rotH- "to run" -> "wheel, chariot"). Assuming a time depth of 2000 years (5500-3500 BC), and that the the IE dialects were still largely mutually intelligible (as the Romance languages are today), such transparent formations may have easily been picked up and adopted by other Indo-European speakers, along with the items themselves. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 17:42:59 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 09:42:59 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042343.23782.6174209913727007568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > I want to know parallels to IE horse complex of myth/ritual > that has spread great distances (eg., Rome and India) in > preliterate/nonliterate societies. I posted some time ago, a broad cultural complex that spread from Manchuria to Eastern Europe among the Altaic, Uralic and "Scythian" peoples. Some thought the complex rather general although I found it much more specific and wide-ranging that horse culture referred to here. How about the spread of iron or bronze technology in Europe and Western Asia? Didn't it cross ethnic barriers or was it always carried by migration only? Did the diffusion of computer technology involve migrations of any significant kind? Ideas can pass from culture to another through cultural, trade and other contacts. They can be passed on by third parties and not necessarily only from the originators. The whole idea seems to be that a few Vedic and Roman horse rituals were similar, and that Sintashta culture practiced a unique form of horse burial. Both had chariots, although not necessarily related to one another. From this we deduce, that Sintashta culture were PIE speakers! Using the same logic, then Huns, Mongols, Kipchaks, Ghuzz Turks, Getae, Goths and Scythians must all have spoken a closely related language. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 6 17:49:19 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 09:49:19 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042350.23782.8758092188292077779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > I want to know parallels to IE horse complex of myth/ritual > that has spread great distances (eg., Rome and India) in > preliterate/nonliterate societies. P. K. Manansala writes: I posted some time ago, a broad cultural complex that spread from Manchuria to Eastern Europe among the Altaic, Uralic and "Scythian" peoples. Some thought the complex rather general although I found it much more specific and wide-ranging that horse culture referred to here. I could not find your writing about cultural complex from Eastern Europe to Manchuria. I will appreciate some elaboration. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcv at WXS.NL Fri Nov 6 09:57:34 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 09:57:34 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <3642C318.EA1FF0BB@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042326.23782.12395857659530356746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >> >> We know that before the first documented Turkic presence in Central >> Asia (8th. century Orkhon inscriptions, and before that a 6th century >> Turkic document in Sogdian script found in Mongolia), most of the >> languages spoken in Central Asia ("Russian" and "Chinese" Turkestan) >> were Iranian. There is a large number of Sogdian, Saka-Khotanese and >> Old Khwarezmian documents that testify to this. > >No, you can't tell what people spoke by a few recovered documents. >For example, there are many old tombstones in insular Southeast Asia >with Arabic inscriptions. Yet these do not indicate the language spoken >by the people. Likewise you can find plenty of evidence of Arabic >right after the Arab invasion of Central Asia. The Sakas who invaded >India quickly adopted Indic languages; the Parthians adopted Persian; >the Mongols of Samarkand adopted Turkish, etc., etc. Indeed. But you can't dismiss Sogdian that way. First, we're not talking about a few inscriptions or documents here, but about a whole literature, written down in three distinct scripts (native Sogdian script [from which the Uighur and Mongolian scripts are derived], Manichean Syriac script, and Christian Nestorian script). Second, unlike Arabic, Sogdian documents are found in Central Asia only, nowhere else. They can't be foreign imports. Third, a language demonstrably descended from Sogdian, Yaghnobi, is spoken today in Central Asia. Fourth, the Turkic languages spoken in Central Asia today (Uighur and Uzbek, among others), show plenty of borrowings from old Sogdian. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 18:31:02 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 10:31:02 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042349.23782.8016588552671158314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Indeed. But you can't dismiss Sogdian that way. No, I wouldn't do that. There are IA speakers in Central Asia today, although I don't know any that lived a "Scythian" way of life in recent times. Practically all of the Altaic speakers lived such a life until very recently. Some still live this way. What type of culture did the Sogdians have anyway. Weren't they Manicheans? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 6 18:42:32 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 10:42:32 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042354.23782.17682096122432889307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< My theory is that these movements c. 5500 BC represent the breakup of PIE (Proto-Hittite staying behind in the Balkan area, the Ko"ro"s/LBK groups moving east and west to eventually become Western and Eastern Indo-European). Admittedly, the common vocabulary for wheeled transport is a problem for my theory (not as much as for Renfrew's version, of course). If wheeled transport was invented c. 3500 BC, there is still a gap of two millennia between my date for PIE breakup and the wheel. There is of course the possibility that future archaeological finds may push the date a bit further back [we are dealing with perishable wooden, non-metallic, artifacts after all], but it seems unlikely that wheeled transport existed before 4000 BC, and 5500 BC is too much to hope for. But at the same time, what I am arguing for is an early Indo-European-speaking area which had not yet expanded into its present area (France, Great Britain & Ireland, Italy, Spain, Central Asia, Iran, N. India had not yet been Indo-Europeanized by 3500 BC). We can roughly compare the area occupied by IE between 5500 and 3500 with the present area of the Romance languages, and likewise the linguistic distance between the IE languages at the time (Romance is some 2000 years old). >>>>> Thanks again, Dr. Vidal. I seriously doubt wheel impressions will be found further back than 3500 B.C. (Wheels are found only upto 3300 B.C., Anthony cautiously takes 3500 B.C. for PIE guys together.) There is a difficulty with the 5500 B.C. as the start date for Early Common PIE. Archaeological evidence points to PIE not even crossing Dnieper river before 3500 B.C. Please see below. Also: Mr. J-C. Svadchii's post shows that we cannot support 5500 B.C. as the breakup date. Want to know how you reconcile the similarities between Roman and Indic religions for such a long time. This fact also argues for a late date for Late Common IE in a compact area (say, Romance tongue zone) given the paired horses in chariots appear in myth and ritual. Archaeology gives dates for 'proto'chariots as 2000 B.C. and for true chariots as 1800 B.C. (Future digs may push these dates little back.) Regards, N. Ganesan Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12) Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European languages and archaeology. David W. Anthony. " Third, the clearest and most discontinuous archaeological boundary in all of Europe during the period 5000-3500 BC was at the Dnieper River in modern Ukraine (Anthony 1995). The Tripolye culture, west of the Dnieper, was utterly distinct from the groups east of the Dnieper in ceramic shapes, decoration and technology; in metallurgy; in the use of female figurines; in mortuary rituals; in house forms and construction methods; in settlement size and organization; in several aspects of lithic tool production; in economy; and in the developmental trajectory that led to its appearance. Archaeological cultures do not correlate with prehistoric language groups in a predictable manner, but in many ethnographic situations, material culture does correlate with language (Clarke 1968: 384-5; Hodder 1978: 9-10; Jorgensen 1980: 88; Weissner 1983: 272; Moore & Romney 1994: 387-8). The Dnieper divide is likely to represent a 4th-millennium BC language boundary because: it originated as a boundary between immigrant farmers (west) and indigenous foragers (east); it was remarkably persistent, enduring for 1500 years, even after the societies east of the Dnieper adopted food production; and it separated people who produced fundamentally different material cultures, reflecting basic differences in domestic and economic organization, ritual practice, technological expertise and social display (Anthony 1995: 189-90). The Dnieper boundary is among the best candidates for a linguistic boundary in 4th-millennium BC Europe. PIE should be placed on one side or the other. The linguistic links to Uralic and Caucasic, just mentioned, and the archaeological background of early Indo-Iranian-speaking groups far to the east combine to suggest a PIE homeland east of the Dnieper. These new arguments lead to an old conclusion: that the PIE homeland was in the Pontic-Caspian steppes, north of the Black and Caspian Seas. ..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 18:42:44 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 10:42:44 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042352.23782.14906934260292827508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: > People have done similar things and have also turned Turkic writing > into Iranian. For example, the Zelencuk inscription or the Alanian > greeting have been give as Iranian for a long time, but Miller had to > do hokus-pokus to get the Zelenchuk Inscription as Iranian. I now have > a picture of the inscription and what Miller did to it, explained by > Miziev. He erased letters and made other substitutions and created a > mumbo-jumbo whereas without erasing any letters one can create > meaningful sentences in Turkic. Don't forget other Altaic rather than just Turkic. Not only with the Hsiung-nu, but even the Avar words seem rather similar to words in Manchu. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Fri Nov 6 16:55:52 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 11:55:52 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042347.23782.3400354108577889882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > Herodotus isn't very explicit about the Scythian vocabulary, and some > of the things he claims are almost certainly bogus, like his > explanation of the name "Arimaspians" as from Scythian "one" > and "eye", which can be neither Ossetian ("one" = , "eye" > = ) nor Turkic ("one" = , "eye" = ~ ), nor > any other known Eurasian language at all (I've checked Mark Turkish 'yarim' = half. So this could mean 'half-sighted'. One of the others (Scythians) calls a drink 'achy'. That means 'bitter' or 'sour' in Turkic. > The evidence for the Iranian character of Scythian, apart from the > identification Saka==Scythian (and Saka-Khotanese is a > well-documented Middle Iranian lg.), is based on ancient glosses > (Hesychius gives "melition: a Scythian drink", clearly from the IE > word for "honey, mead", Herodotus' Oior-pata "man-killer" (=Amazon), > has been connected with IE *wi:ros, Skt. vi:ra- "man"), and the 'er' happens to be one word meaning 'man' or 'male' or 'husband' scattered throughout Turkic languages in many forms (erkek, erk, erkin, erkisi, or even in combination with other words like kochxar = male sheep, etc) and there is no other word to take its place. IT seems difficult to believe that they did not have words for male or female until the Iranians taught them. Besides this 'ar' can be found among Nilo-Saharans and may be from the ME protoworld. > evidence of toponymics, especially the South Russian/Ukrainian river > names Don, Dnestr, Dnepr < PIran *da:nu "river", cf. Oss. > "water, river", * and *, the "front" and > "back" rivers, respectively. Another Iranian etymology is Caucasus < > *xrohu-kasi- "ice-shiny". These are dangerous territories. 'Deniz'/Tenngiz' means 'sea' in Turkic and is well established in other forms like 'tennger' (in l~r Turkic and Hungarian). Herodotus says that the 'barbarians' call all large bodies of water 'eridanus', and 'iri' or 'irig/ is Turkic for 'large'. 'Tang' means the heavens, so the root seems to refer to 'large bluish expanse'. Tengri, or Tanri means 'sky god' more or less. Furthermore those words can easily be etymologized as 'danu-apar' and 'danus-tur' so people who created them are simply ignoring other evidence or are unaware of them. Furthermore 'krau' or 'kirau' means 'frost' in Turkic, and 'kash' means 'rock, stone'. There are other etymologies for "Caucasus" also, like 'Kolkh' (Colchis), kash-kash (as in the Kaskha, enemies of Hittites). Furthermore, this is an easy game to play. 'Tong' or 'don' means 'to freeze' and could refer to the "don" river. Even more so, Miziev thinks the Danube/Dunay/Duna is from 'Tynay' from Turkic 'tyn' meaning 'quiet' i.e. the 'quiet Don'. The root 'tam/dam' means 'drop' and could have easily referred to water falling. > Now it's perfectly possible that the Scythian tribes in the Ukraine > had assimilated large numbers of non-Iranian peoples. Herodotus > tells us that when the Scythians arrived in Europe they drove out the > original inhabitants, the Cimmerians (linguistic affiliation unknown, > possibly Indo-European of the Daco-Thracian group). And the > "Scythian farmers" described by Herodotus are considered by many to > be Proto-Slavs. Miziev says the Kimmers were also protoTurkic. In the same way that Subar/Sabir/Suvash/Chuvash referred to 'river-men' (i.e. sub=water) kam-er refers to river-men. There are rivers in Asia in Turkic territories that have the name 'khem/kam' in them. The confluence of the rivers Zelenchuk & Kuban in the Caucasus is called "ullu kam" in karachay-balkar. The word for ship in Turkic is 'keme/geme'. The word for island (Miziev) is ayirakam (river-splitter, from ayir=split, and kam=river). That makes it even more likely that some form of proto-Turkic was in that region before the Scythians. > The same, or worse, goes for the linguistic affiliations of the > Xiong-nu, the (Western) Huns, the HuNa or White Huns or Hephthalites, > the Juan-Juan or Ju-Jan, the Avars or Varchonites, the Sabir, > Utrigur, Kutrigur and Onogur "Huns", the Toba (Tabgach), the > Hsien-Pei, etc. All of these have been identified as Turkic or > Mongolian based more on geographical than on linguistic criteria. > The reason for this is that linguistic evidence is in most cases > completely absent. There are linguistic criteria for many of these; ie.. for Avar, Hun, etc. Kutrigur and Utigur are easily Turkic words. > > The question of the Hunnish language has been treated extensively by > Gerhard Doerfer in his article "Zur Sprache der Hunnen", Central > Asiatic Journal XVII/1973, 1-50. He concludes that we just can't > conclude anything. There are others who have concluded it's Turkic i..e Pritsak. Right now the Turkic side is believed. IT is furthermore believed that they spoke l~r Turkic and not sh~z Turkic. The Xiong-Nu may not even have been the same > people or spoken the same language as Atilla's Huns or the Hun.a > (Hephthalites, White Huns) of Afghanistan/India. The glosses given > by Byzantine authors of "Hunnish" words are all either Slavic or > Daco-Thracian, words that the Huns had picked up after their arrival > in the Hungarian plain. The names of most Hunnish leaders are > Germanic (e.g. Attila) or Iranian, with only a few (the oldest) That is not right. The Norse version of it 'atli' is a perfectly good Turkic word meaning 'horseman'. This problem arises because they first assume that 'atti' is Germanic for father when they should know by now that 'ata' is Turkic for father in practically every Turkic language, and words like ata, apa, ana, amma, appa, akka, atta, are all Turkic words referring to parents. It is completely the reverse; for Vernadsky takes perfectly good Turkic words and makes them Slavic, i.e. Besmer (bezmez, or bezmer), Asperuk (es-berir or esberik). Too many Turkic scholars seem to be closet Iranists or all politically motivated, or unduly influenced by IEnists and particularly Iranists. > As to the Xiong-nu, there appear to be some connections with Altaic > (*ta"ngri- "sky", given as Xion-nu "tch'eng-li" in Chinese sources), > but also with Yeniseian (Xiong-nu "stone" ~ Yen. ~ > "stone"). Given that the Xiong-nu were the earliest known > people to dominate the eastern steppes, it is not unlikely that these > words are borrowings into Turkic, Mongolian and Yeniseian from > Xiong-nu. For the rest, all we have of the Xiong-nu language is the > Chinese transcription of the sentence "Send out the army, capture the > leader", given as: > > sio^g-tjeg-t'iei li at d-ka^ng > b'uok-kuk g'ju t'uk-ta^ng > > Interpretations of this as Turkic have been attempted, but one can > equally turn it into Akkadian (as Doerfer has done) or into > Indo-European (my non-serious shot at it was: *siu:ntete leudhskom, > po:ng(w)ete ju:s duktom). Given the inadequacy of the Chinese > writing system for rendering foreign words, anything's possible. People have done similar things and have also turned Turkic writing into Iranian. For example, the Zelencuk inscription or the Alanian greeting have been give as Iranian for a long time, but Miller had to do hokus-pokus to get the Zelenchuk Inscription as Iranian. I now have a picture of the inscription and what Miller did to it, explained by Miziev. He erased letters and made other substitutions and created a mumbo-jumbo whereas without erasing any letters one can create meaningful sentences in Turkic. > ======================= > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal > mcv at wxs.nl > Amsterdam -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 20:48:15 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 12:48:15 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042357.23782.15757410537496049966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >> > Nope. Attila *is* Gothic for "little father" (Vaterlein), no > assumptions required. > > >for father when they > >should know by now that 'ata' is Turkic for father in practically > >every Turkic language. > > Yes, but not 'attila', with double -tt- and dimunitive suffix -ila. > Must be Gothic or Gepid. Since most of Attila's subjects were > Germanic Ostrogoths and Gepids (actually, most would have been Slav > farmers, but those didn't count), there's nothing strange about that. > > I think this type of back and forth argument illustrates the problems with trying to determine language relationships based on a few words in historical sources. A lot of it is subjective and based on materials that may be highly corrupt. For example, in Europe Timur Leng was corrupted to Tamerlane for some time. If someone were to come across the ashes of modern civiliztion and analyze this name he might surmise that it as a compound of English "tamer" and "lane," and thus: "way of the lion tamer!" Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Nov 6 11:24:54 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 14:24:54 +0300 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042393.23782.6140853788383888530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala on Nov. 7, quoting my previous posting, wrote: > >> Olzhas Sulejmenov whom you refer to is no linguist, no historian, no >> anthropologist; he is a talanted and well-known Kazakh poet, who tries since >> the late 1970-ies in a diletant's way to prove the identity of Proto-Turks >> with Sumerians and exceptional role played by them in the world history. >> I don't know who are Tuna and Miziev, but if I may judge from your references >> to their works they belong to the same genre of nationalistic >"science"-fiction. >But what of Eurocentric nationalist science-fiction? What part did/does >it play in untangling "Aryan" history? I suppose you will tell us none? Why? I could tell a lot about "Eurocentric nationalist science-fiction". But the thing described this way is long ago a matter of the past. Nationalists in to-day's Europe do not think in terms of the whole continent, "Europe" is too wide generalization for them. They claim that their particular ethnos is the most ancient, autochtonous on the territory of their present-day national state and surpassing all other nations in cultural and historical significance. But the difference between East (including many post-Soviet states) and the West is that in the West this "nationalist science-fiction" never raise up to the level of University or Academic scholarship. Our post-Soviet experience here made us understand how dangerous the "scholarly nationalism" is. All ethnic conflicts here which took thousands of lives had been prepared by the propagandistic efforts of local intellectuals who did everything they could to twist historical and linguistic facts in favour of their nationalist theories. As for the "Eurocentric nationalist science-fiction", this phenomenon existed in the last century and was connected, of course, with European colonial expansion. And it participated really in forming the myth of the blonde and blue-eyed "Aryan" warriors, invincible conquerors, who had spread the superior "Aryan" culture to the barbarian periphery of the world. But the European scholarship itself duscarded this naive myth long ago. The term ARYA is never used today in the sense of "Indo-Europeans"; it is used as the definition of the Indo-Iranian-speaking peoples, being the term they used to call themselves. There is no more any concept of "Aryan conquest" of India or any other country - but the very spread of the IE and II languages makes scholars consider the migrations of IE and IIranians across Eurasia to be an established fact. Nobody thinks any more that the culture of IE or IIranians was higher in any aspects that the culture of their Non-IE neighbours; on the contrary, modern scholars (so many of them Europeans by origin) demonstrated to the world the greatness of the ancient Non-IE or pre-IE civilisations of Asia and Europe contrasted to the barbarity of IE steppe tribes. Nowhere in the present-day European scholarly literature you can find any traces of racial or ethnocentric prejudices (if you can - please tell us, we shall discuss it). The last grotesque renaissance of nationalistic scholarship in Europe was in Nazi Germany, and it came as a signal for all the true scholars to banish all national prejudices and emotions out of science. In fact, the Asian nationalists are "fighting" and "debating" not with the present-day European scholars, but with "Europocentric nationalists" of Chamberlain's kind, who have been dead, together with their ideas, for many decades now. But this was said on this list already so many times! Best wishes, Ya.V. P.S. By the way, in regard to your other posting where you give a list of common features which is to prove the almost complete identity between cultures of Scyths and Hunnu. For nine or ten summer field seasons I had the opportunity to take part in the excavations of a large cemetery in Tuwa republic, South Siberia (close to Russia's Mongolian border). This cemetary is unique in that respect that there the Hunnish burials in wooden coffins (appr. III-I centuries BC) lay directly over the graves with the stone-cists of the previous, Scythian period. There were even some burials showing the very moment of cultural transition. It is a pity that you were not with us there! It would take only a day or to for you to see clearly all the difference between the two cultures. Redards, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Fri Nov 6 14:26:04 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 14:26:04 +0000 Subject: Addresses In-Reply-To: <01BE0993.0F732740@ti01a23-0023.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042335.23782.2115721097393558338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear Net, > > does anybody have the email address of the two following persons: > > Renate S?hnen-Thieme rs2 at soas.ac.uk > > Andreas Bigger Someone else will have to provide this one. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 22:32:26 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 14:32:26 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042362.23782.6381730531774831879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > N. Ganesan wrote: > > > I want to know parallels to IE horse complex of myth/ritual > > that has spread great distances (eg., Rome and India) in > > preliterate/nonliterate societies. > > P. K. Manansala writes: > I posted some time ago, a broad cultural complex that spread from > Manchuria to Eastern Europe among the Altaic, Uralic and "Scythian" > peoples. Some thought the complex rather general although I found it > much more specific and wide-ranging that horse culture referred to here. > > I could not find your writing about cultural complex > from Eastern Europe to Manchuria. I will appreciate > some elaboration. To save some time, I looked the article up in the archives. Here is the pertinent segment: [...] Regarding the Altaic culture, the similarities between Hsiung-nu and later Turko-Mongol culture with the culture ascribed to Scythians by Herodotus and others is well-known. Here is a partial list: 1. The joint burial of humans with horses often oriented toward East. 2. Fully nomadic society on horseback. 3. Slitting the throat of the chief's wife and servants on tomb 4. Cutting one's enemy's skull at eyebrow level, inlaying with gold and covering with leather to make a drinking cup. 5. Head-hunting. 6. Hanging scalps of victims from bridles. 7. Wide trousers strapped to the ankle. 8. Fur cap and cape. 9. Mourn dead by gashing face with knives so "blood flows with tears." 10. Had flocks of sheep and herds of horses, camel and cattle. 11. Meat and milk diet.Rarely practiced regular agriculture. 12. Dressed in skins. 13. Wolf as totem guard and revival totem. 14. Used felt tents and brought women and children in wagons. 15. Practiced shamanism based on worship of Heaven and sacred mountains. 16. Supreme leader summoned all tribes in the autumn for census of humans and animals. 17. Used raiding and fleeing tactics. 18. Depended on mounted bowmen in battle. 19. Used same feigned retreat strategies. 20. Both were experts at firing bows to the rear while mounted. 21. Slept on furs. 22. Usually shaved head except small tuft on top. 23. Used similar small yet fierce pony. 24. Switched horses in battle. 25. Drank blood of horse during battle to prevent dehydration. 26. Usually no beard except tuft on chin. 27. Sheath of bow suspended from belt in front of left thigh. 28. Quiver attached to belt and suspended across back with arrows to right. 29. Preferred mare's milk to other types of milk. 30. Similar burial in raised mounds. 31. Similar "plank and file" coffins 32. Similar bows From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Nov 6 14:37:59 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 14:37:59 +0000 Subject: Addresses Message-ID: <161227042331.23782.7744927402406899055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Net, does anybody have the email address of the two following persons: Renate S?hnen-Thieme Andreas Bigger Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 6 22:45:33 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 14:45:33 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042370.23782.11399518892466163861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Also: > Mr. J-C. Svadchii's post shows that we cannot > support 5500 B.C. as the breakup date. Want > to know how you reconcile the similarities > between Roman and Indic religions for such a > long time. *Frankly, I have never looked at this comparative mythology / *comparative religion angle too closely. And what I've seen of it *doesn't convince me at all. Please take a look. If we accept a relation between Roman and Indic religions, then the 5500 B.C. PIE breakup cannot be sustained. Mallory admits to a problem in reconciling this data from IE comparative mythology: On the horse sacrifice (from Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, p. 135ff): "The major ritual enactment of a horse-centered myth is supported by evidence from ancient India and Rome, and, more distantly, medieval Ireland. .... The ashvamedha bears comparison with the major Roman horse sacrifice which was known as the October Equus. Following a horse race on the ides of October, the right-sided horse of the team was dispatched by a spear and then dismembered, again in such a fashion as to indicate its "functional" division into the three estates. .... A detailed analysis of this and other material has led Jaan Puhvel to propose a Proto-Indo-European myth and ritual which involved the mating of a figure from the royal class with a horse from which ultimately sprung the famous equine divine twins. He offers some additional linguistic support for such a ritual in the very name of the Indic ceremony, the ashvamedha. This derives from the Proto-Indo-European *ek'wo-meydho 'horse-drunk', attesting a ritual which included both a horse and drunkenness. This is quite comparable to the personal name Epomeduos which is found in ancient Gaul and appears to derive from *ekwo-medu 'horse-mead'. .... Hence, both the Indic and Celtic worlds still preserve the ancient Proto-Indo-European name of a horse-centered ceremony involving intoxication. The horse ritual warrants one more comment since it illustrates all too well how a comparison of myths may lead us along paths that appear to be contradicted by archaeological evidence. Both the ashvamedha and the October Equus clearly concern the sacrifice of a draught horse and in a striking instance of parallelism, both require that the horse in question excels on the right side of the chariot ... Clearly, this suggests that the horse is selected from a paired chariot team. But archaeological evidence indicates that the horse was not likely to have been employed in paired draught until the invention of the spoked wheel and chariot, which is normally dated after about 2500 BC and, consequently, some time after we would have assumed the disintegration of the Proto-Indo-European community. Indeed, the entire concept of horse-twins, totally points to paired draught, while the archaeological evidence suggests that this should not be so at the time-depth we normally assign to Proto-Indo-European." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 6 23:03:16 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 15:03:16 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042368.23782.9220130743956087225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > Olzhas Sulejmenov whom you refer to is no linguist, no historian, no > anthropologist; he is a talanted and well-known Kazakh poet, who tries since > the late 1970-ies in a diletant's way to prove the identity of Proto-Turks > with Sumerians and exceptional role played by them in the world history. > I don't know who are Tuna and Miziev, but if I may judge from your references > to their works they belong to the same genre of nationalistic >"science"-fiction. But what of Eurocentric nationalist science-fiction? What part did/does it play in untangling "Aryan" history? I suppose you will tell us none? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Nov 6 14:49:42 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 15:49:42 +0100 Subject: Addresses In-Reply-To: <01BE0993.0F732740@ti01a23-0023.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042338.23782.2688974106460108891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Net, > >does anybody have the email address of the two following persons: > >Renate S?hnen-Thieme > >Andreas Bigger > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > Andreas Bigger's email address: abigger at indoger.unizh.ch This was valid, at least, in July 1997. I do not know, whether he is still there. If you do not reach him, you can ask Peter Schreiner. Georg v. Simson From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Nov 6 22:03:12 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 16:03:12 -0600 Subject: Vedic and Buddhism-- the other end of the timeline In-Reply-To: <364378FA.2F0784A@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042366.23782.10420465234896054443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As the current thread on wheels and such probes and posits itself deeper and deeper into the abstractions of ancient inferrences, I'm curious about the other temporal "direction" of the question: perhaps tracking the Vedic tradition as it moved east, and as reformations (e.g. early forms of Buddhism) took place. THis leads to the question of the Vedic (AV) inscriptions on the ancient temples in Cambodia for instance. Cf. Also Hajime Nakamura's comments (_Indian Buddhism_, Delhi: Motilal, 1989) re. Vedic ===> Buddhist "transient" stage (pp. 39-42), or the non-nihilistic, early understandings of anatta (pp. 63ff.). And, just in case this seems too far removed from the political wheels driving some of the proto-IE/II issues, note the following from reuters: ======================= ***Indian official's view of Buddhism irks scholars SARNATH, India (Reuters) - A key figure in India's Hindu nationalist-led government provoked outrage among Buddhist scholars Friday by asserting that Buddhism merely represented India's ancient Aryan traditions with a "new emphasis." "Buddha did not announce any new religion. He was only restating with a new emphasis the ancient ideals of the Indo-Aryan civilizations," Home Minister L.K. Advani said in a speech at Sarnath in northern India. Advani is a senior leader of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, which leads India's coalition government. Opponents accuse the BJP of promoting Hinduism - the religion of most Indians - at the expense of other religions. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2556965151-bd6 ====================== No, I'm not in favor of these politics, but the affect of the politics on Indological-- esp. Vedic/Indus/Proto-II discussions cannot be underestimated. Perhaps some of the ancient pre-1500 b.c.e. debates might be informed/augmented by looking the other temporal direction, and applying those implications to more empirical data from teh later Vedic and early Buddhist periods. Has anyone been looking at this? jr __________________________ John Robert Gardner, Ph.D. http://vedavid.org/diss/ ____________________________________________________ Obermann Center & The Graduate College for Advanced Studies The University of Iowa ____________________________________________________ "Your dreams must always lead you beyond comfort" From bprasad at CISCO.COM Sat Nov 7 00:44:30 1998 From: bprasad at CISCO.COM (Bal Prasad) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 16:44:30 -0800 Subject: Thanks In-Reply-To: <199811070000.QAA10169@proxy2.cisco.com> Message-ID: <161227042373.23782.14342887563087961888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Ruth Laila Schmidt enscribed thusly --- > > haldii-ghaaTii is, that is the place where Akbar defeated Rana Pratap. Does > haldii mean "turmeric" here? Presumably it would be the valley of a > Turmeric River, but I have never heard of such a place. Err, not quite. The mud there is yellowish, similar to the colour of turmeric and hence the name. -Prasad From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Nov 6 16:00:46 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 17:00:46 +0100 Subject: Arabian Sea Message-ID: <161227042340.23782.15320640785514291228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Can someone tell me the Hindi name for the Arabian Sea? Thank you. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 7 01:38:14 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 17:38:14 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042375.23782.17357387767734925155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Agreed that horses and men were buried together. But no man's body with horse's head in those burials. Also, are there textual sources to compare rituals between Manchuria to Eastern Europe? If so, how old are they? Thank God! Aryans or Dravidians were not this violent :-) Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------- Regarding the Altaic culture, the similarities between Hsiung-nu and later Turko-Mongol culture with the culture ascribed to Scythians by Herodotus and others is well-known. Here is a partial list: 1. The joint burial of humans with horses often oriented toward East. 2. Fully nomadic society on horseback. 3. Slitting the throat of the chief's wife and servants on tomb 4. Cutting one's enemy's skull at eyebrow level, inlaying with gold and covering with leather to make a drinking cup. 5. Head-hunting. 6. Hanging scalps of victims from bridles. 7. Wide trousers strapped to the ankle. 8. Fur cap and cape. 9. Mourn dead by gashing face with knives so "blood flows with tears." 10. Had flocks of sheep and herds of horses, camel and cattle. 11. Meat and milk diet.Rarely practiced regular agriculture. 12. Dressed in skins. 13. Wolf as totem guard and revival totem. 14. Used felt tents and brought women and children in wagons. 15. Practiced shamanism based on worship of Heaven and sacred mountains. 16. Supreme leader summoned all tribes in the autumn for census of humans and animals. 17. Used raiding and fleeing tactics. 18. Depended on mounted bowmen in battle. 19. Used same feigned retreat strategies. 20. Both were experts at firing bows to the rear while mounted. 21. Slept on furs. 22. Usually shaved head except small tuft on top. 23. Used similar small yet fierce pony. 24. Switched horses in battle. 25. Drank blood of horse during battle to prevent dehydration. 26. Usually no beard except tuft on chin. 27. Sheath of bow suspended from belt in front of left thigh. 28. Quiver attached to belt and suspended across back with arrows to right. 29. Preferred mare's milk to other types of milk. 30. Similar burial in raised mounds. 31. Similar "plank and file" coffins 32. Similar bows ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Nov 6 16:50:21 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 17:50:21 +0100 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227042345.23782.2783726339884564751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Thank you, everyone who responded to my query about the Arabian Sea. I fear I am being importunate but wonder if anyone knows where the haldii-ghaaTii is, that is the place where Akbar defeated Rana Pratap. Does haldii mean "turmeric" here? Presumably it would be the valley of a Turmeric River, but I have never heard of such a place. Thanks again, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From partha at CAPITAL.NET Fri Nov 6 23:25:08 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 18:25:08 -0500 Subject: Hinduism and Buddhism -- the RSS connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042371.23782.8253066617031523806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am responding to this rather disturbing report involving Buddhism in India (quoted below). ___ This "assertion" of India's home minister Advani is in line with the doctrine of his parental organization's doctrine. RSS or Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the mother organization of BJP, has always championed this idea that Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism are not new religions, rather they are "new emphasis on the Aryan tradition." Eva Hellman of the University of Dalarna, Sweden, in her Ph.D. dissertation on Vishwa Hindu Parishad (RSS' religion front and BJP's sibling organization) and its politics, maintains that Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism are not recognized by the Sangh in their totalities. "The Sikhs are expected to provide martial prowess for the defense of Dharma, from the Buddhists there is expected a fight against the prevailing caste-system, and from the Jains are expected the inculcation of moral virtues. Only if Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains conform to these expectations will they be accepted as Hindus." The Sangh Parivar, she asserts, operates with different kinds of inclusivism: subordinating, hierarchical, complementary and conditional. I am quoting here another comment on Buddhism and Jainism from RSS' English mouthpiece The Organiser. "So far as Jainism and Buddhism are concerned they have never made any contribution to social and political thought as such. We have not inherited any arthashastras (politics and economics) or dharmashastras (social laws) from them. All we have from them are the various moksha-shastras pertaining to the supreme salvation of the individual soul." [The Organiser, 10th June, 1963] ___ Note: I have included both quotations in my newly published book on RSS and BJP. The details of the book are given here for your reference. Partha Banerjee. 1998. In the Belly of the Beast: The Hindu Supremacist RSS and BJP of India -- An Insider's Story. Ajanta Books International, Delhi, India. 165 pp. ___ >======================= >***Indian official's view of Buddhism irks scholars > >SARNATH, India (Reuters) - A key figure in India's Hindu >nationalist-led government provoked outrage among Buddhist scholars >Friday by asserting that Buddhism merely represented India's ancient >Aryan traditions with a "new emphasis." "Buddha did not announce any >new religion. He was only restating with a new emphasis the ancient >ideals of the Indo-Aryan civilizations," Home Minister L.K. Advani >said in a speech at Sarnath in northern India. Advani is a senior >leader of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, which leads >India's coalition government. Opponents accuse the BJP of promoting >Hinduism - the religion of most Indians - at the expense of other >religions. See >http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2556965151-bd6 > >====================== >No, I'm not in favor of these politics, but the affect of the politics on >Indological-- esp. Vedic/Indus/Proto-II discussions cannot be >underestimated. Perhaps some of the ancient pre-1500 b.c.e. debates might >be informed/augmented by looking the other temporal direction, and >applying those implications to more empirical data from teh later Vedic >and early Buddhist periods. > >Has anyone been looking at this? _______________________ I completely agree with the above statement that the effects of politics on Indological discussions are significant. The history of Hinduism and India is under serious threat at the present time because of RSS/BJP's ascendency to national power. It is important that we keep discussing what exactly is going on in the name of Indianness and "Hindutva" (the RSS' revisionary version of Hinduism). From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Nov 7 02:58:32 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 18:58:32 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042377.23782.17580214923077367995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Agreed that horses and men were buried together. > But no man's body with horse's head in those burials. Not in India or Europe either. Wasn't there only one such burial found in Sintashta? > > Also, are there textual sources to compare > rituals between Manchuria to Eastern Europe? > If so, how old are they? > Well, there are different textual sources that give cultural descriptions of the Scythians and Hsiung-nu, for example. Herodotus tells us a lot about the Scythians. Information on the Hsiung-nu comes from various Chinese sources including the official imperial histories. Hippocrates uses the Scythians as an example of how the human body is affected by extreme cold temperatures. He explains the short stocky build, lack of facial hair and "humidity" or lack of definition of facial features as a result of the effect of climate. > Thank God! Aryans or Dravidians were not this violent :-) Wait a minute, Manu commands pouring molten lead into the ears of Sudras who dared listen to the Vedas! Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > ---------------------------- > Regarding the Altaic culture, the similarities between Hsiung-nu and > later Turko-Mongol culture with the culture ascribed to Scythians by > Herodotus and others is well-known. Here is a partial list: > > 1. The joint burial of humans with horses often oriented toward East. > 2. Fully nomadic society on horseback. > 3. Slitting the throat of the chief's wife and servants on tomb > 4. Cutting one's enemy's skull at eyebrow level, inlaying with gold > and covering with leather to make a drinking cup. > 5. Head-hunting. > 6. Hanging scalps of victims from bridles. > 7. Wide trousers strapped to the ankle. > 8. Fur cap and cape. > 9. Mourn dead by gashing face with knives so "blood flows with > tears." > 10. Had flocks of sheep and herds of horses, camel and cattle. > 11. Meat and milk diet.Rarely practiced regular agriculture. > 12. Dressed in skins. > 13. Wolf as totem guard and revival totem. > 14. Used felt tents and brought women and children in wagons. > 15. Practiced shamanism based on worship of Heaven and sacred > mountains. > 16. Supreme leader summoned all tribes in the autumn for census of > humans and animals. > 17. Used raiding and fleeing tactics. > 18. Depended on mounted bowmen in battle. > 19. Used same feigned retreat strategies. > 20. Both were experts at firing bows to the rear while mounted. > 21. Slept on furs. > 22. Usually shaved head except small tuft on top. > 23. Used similar small yet fierce pony. > 24. Switched horses in battle. > 25. Drank blood of horse during battle to prevent dehydration. > 26. Usually no beard except tuft on chin. > 27. Sheath of bow suspended from belt in front of left thigh. > 28. Quiver attached to belt and suspended across back with arrows to > right. > 29. Preferred mare's milk to other types of milk. > 30. Similar burial in raised mounds. > 31. Similar "plank and file" coffins > 32. Similar bows > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcv at WXS.NL Fri Nov 6 19:20:11 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 19:20:11 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <36432A18.EA1E9108@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042355.23782.2369700763579816346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "H.M.Hubey" wrote: >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > >> Herodotus isn't very explicit about the Scythian vocabulary, and some >> of the things he claims are almost certainly bogus, like his >> explanation of the name "Arimaspians" as from Scythian "one" >> and "eye", which can be neither Ossetian ("one" = , "eye" >> = ) nor Turkic ("one" = , "eye" = ~ ), nor >> any other known Eurasian language at all (I've checked Mark > >Turkish 'yarim' = half. So this could mean 'half-sighted'. Well, if you can find a Turkic word "asp-" with the appropiate meaning. Or any Turkic word "asp-" at all. >> The evidence for the Iranian character of Scythian, apart from the >> identification Saka==Scythian (and Saka-Khotanese is a >> well-documented Middle Iranian lg.), is based on ancient glosses >> (Hesychius gives "melition: a Scythian drink", clearly from the IE >> word for "honey, mead", Herodotus' Oior-pata "man-killer" (=Amazon), >> has been connected with IE *wi:ros, Skt. vi:ra- "man"), and the > >'er' happens to be one word meaning 'man' or 'male' or 'husband' >scattered >throughout Turkic languages in many forms (erkek, erk, erkin, erkisi, or >even in >combination with other words like kochxar = male sheep, etc) >and there is no other word to take its place. IT seems difficult to >believe >that they did not have words for male or female until the Iranians >taught them. But what has Turkic *e:r, *erkek to do with PIE *wi:ros, or with Herodotus' "oior"? >> evidence of toponymics, especially the South Russian/Ukrainian river >> names Don, Dnestr, Dnepr < PIran *da:nu "river", cf. Oss. >> "water, river", * and *, the "front" and >> "back" rivers, respectively. > >These are dangerous territories. 'Deniz'/Tenngiz' means 'sea' in Turkic >and is well established in other forms like 'tennger' (in l~r Turkic and >Hungarian). Indeed, all the old forms have t-. The change to d- is recent, and restricted to (Anatolian) Turkish. That rules out any connection with (apart from the wrong vowel, the spurious -(ng)er/ -(ng)iz at the end, and the wrong meaning). I don't care too much for the etymology of "Caucasus", but the river names are surely Iranian. Forget about and just look at Ossetian "water, river"... [paraphrasing Doerfer:] >> The Xiong-Nu may not even have been the same >> people or spoken the same language as Atilla's Huns or the Hun.a >> (Hephthalites, White Huns) of Afghanistan/India. The glosses given >> by Byzantine authors of "Hunnish" words are all either Slavic or >> Daco-Thracian, words that the Huns had picked up after their arrival >> in the Hungarian plain. The names of most Hunnish leaders are >> Germanic (e.g. Attila) or Iranian, with only a few (the oldest) > >That is not right. The Norse version of it 'atli' is a perfectly >good Turkic word meaning 'horseman'. This problem arises because >they first assume that 'atti' is Germanic Nope. Attila *is* Gothic for "little father" (Vaterlein), no assumptions required. >for father when they >should know by now that 'ata' is Turkic for father in practically >every Turkic language. Yes, but not 'attila', with double -tt- and dimunitive suffix -ila. Must be Gothic or Gepid. Since most of Attila's subjects were Germanic Ostrogoths and Gepids (actually, most would have been Slav farmers, but those didn't count), there's nothing strange about that. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Fri Nov 6 20:50:22 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 20:50:22 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <19981106184233.6847.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042361.23782.10388908488081970137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Also: > Mr. J-C. Svadchii's post shows that we cannot > support 5500 B.C. as the breakup date. Want > to know how you reconcile the similarities > between Roman and Indic religions for such a > long time. Frankly, I have never looked at this comparative mythology / comparative religion angle too closely. And what I've seen of it doesn't convince me at all. I think there are great differences between Roman and Indic religions. And there are similarities between all religions, be they Indo-European or otherwise. As to the Dniepr boundary between Tripolye and the Ponto-Caspian, indeed it is an important one. It marks the boundary between the semi-nomadic inhabitants of the steppe (soon to become fully nomadic by the domestication of the horse) and Gimbutas' "Old European culture", settled, agricultural, metallurgical. Mallory, in a recent article ("The Homelands of the Indo-Europeans"), also emphasizes what he calls the Dniepr-Dniestr "tripline". I fully agree that it must have corresponded with a linguistic boundary, but not necessarily one between IE and non-IE. Just like the boundary between Iran and Turan did not mark the boundary between Iranian and non-Iranian, but between West and East Iranian. The Tripolye culture is all the more interesting, because it was in contact with all the (Late) Neolithic cultures of Europe. Vinca and the other "Old European" cultures to the SE, the steppe cultures to the NE, and the "Danubian" Linear Ware (LBK) and later TRB cultures to the N and W (the abbreviations are German for LinealBand Keramik and TRichterBecher [Funnel Neck Beaker]). Indeed, the Tripolye culture, although basically a Balkan culture of the "Old European" type, also incorporates features that resemble the Danubian cultures, as well as pottery styles that originated in the steppe. Imported Tripolye pottery is found abundantly all over the Ponto-Caspian area, and so is metal (copper) from the Balkans. Schematically: <--- "Danubian" (LBK/TRB) ---> \ Sredny-Stog Khvalynsk TRIPOLYE \ \(Dnestr- "Old European" Dnepr) (Vinca, Karanovo) Now the Dniepr-Donets culture of the 5th millennium, ancestral to the steppe cultures of the 4th millennium (Stredny-Stog/Khvalynsk, later Yama/Pit Grave), is described by the Ukrainian archaeologist Dmitry Telegin (quoted in Mallory "In Search of ...") as having entered from the north-west (Poland, Belarus). And Poland marks the eastern boundary of the Linear Ware cultures of Northern Europe. If this is correct, then the "tripline" was never crossed, merely circumvented (and that c. 5000 BC). If we translate the map above in linguistic terms, then according to my theory what we get is a map of the emerging major subdivisions of the IE languages in the 4th millennium (my "Romance" analogy): Southern (Anatolian-Hittite), Western (Germanic, Italic, Celtic) and Eastern (Greek, Armenian, Indio-Iranian), with Balto-Slavic (Central) intermdiate between Western and Eastern, and Tocharian a very early Eastern offshoot (so early that it resembles the more archaic Eastern and Southern languages). Notice that the Tripolye area very possibly acted as the pivot connecting them all (where for instance the wheeled vehicle terminology may have been transferred): Western Central \ Eastern Tocharian? TRIPOLYE \ \ Southern Besides the Southern ("Anatolian") branch of IE, the area of the Balkans, Greece and Western Anatolia must have contained other languages, more distantly related to Indo-European, all descended from Renfrew's first European farmers of c. 7000 BC. Etruscan, which originates from the Aegean area, is probably the closest known relative of Indo-European. Besides some common vocabulary (but not enough to make sense of most Etruscan texts), the Etruscan declension is very much like the IE one, with genitives in -s and -l [as in Hittite], dative/locative in -i and an accusative in -n (PIE *-m). In fact, another possibility is that only the Tripolye area was "Southern IE" speaking, and that the Balkans were entirely "Etruscoid". ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Nov 6 20:30:36 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 21:30:36 +0100 Subject: Biological anthropology In-Reply-To: <01BE0060.6973A6C0@ti01a26-0005.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042359.23782.2271527952313306231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:42 25.10.98 +-100, you wrote: >Dear List members, > >Having just read Kenneth A. R. Kennedy's contribution to Erodosy's book (The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia) "Have Aryans been identified in the prehistoric skeletal record from South Asia?....", I have a question to the list: > >Kennedy maintains that there are no physical traces of a distinct Aryan "race" (if you will pardon the expression), in other words that physical anthropologists find no skeletal remains that can be identified as different from the old population of North India (and which could consequently be identified with Aryan invaders or migrants) in the second millenium BCE. My question is this: Would (or to what extent would) such data be dependent upon burial method? In other words: would e.g. the burning of dead bodies have the effect of obliterating the archaeological traces of possible intruders? And what does the ancient literature say about burial methods? (I remember some Vedic talk about a "house of clay", but not have the opportunity to check it out). > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > > -------------------------------------------------------------- 'House of clay' - mr.nmayam. gr.ham - comes from RV VII,89.1 [in Griffith's translation "Let me not yet, King Varuna, enter into the house of clay: Have mercy, spare me, Mighty Lord."] Whichever it means - grave or urn, the phrase points to the practice of providing some of the dead with permanent place of rest. RV X,15.14 speaks of the Fathers enjoying themselves in the middle of the heaven (madhye divah.), the bodies of some of them burnt and of some not burnt by the fire (ye agnidagdha_ ye anagnidagdha_). Concerning your question: "would e.g. the burning of dead bodies have the effect of obliterating the archaeological traces of possible intruders? And what does the ancient literature say about burial methods?" --- The most often quoted text is Satapatha-brahmana XIII, 8.1-4 (Julius Eggeling's translation in SBE, vol. XLIV, Oxford 1900, pp.421-440). At least some elements of burial described there seem to be of the kind that may leave permanent and thus archaeologically readable traces, esp. if found together: - four-cornered (and round) burial mounds (s'mas'a_na) 8.1.5 - sizes of mounds 8.1.18-19; 8.3.11-12 - possible separation of mounds from the earth (by a stone or brick foundation) 8.2.1 - enclosing stones 8.2.2 - arranging (the dead person's cremated? collected?) bones limb by limb 8.3.5 - placing (on the bones?) thirteen unmarked bricks or stones in the shape of bird (s'yena? - body, head, right & left wing, tail) 8.3.6-9 - mound oriented along NW-SE axis 8.1.5 - corners respectively WNES 8.3.12, 8.4.1-2 I do not have at hand any materials on the burial ground site in Lauriya Nandangarh. And so let me add some more questions to the original message. Is Bloch's identification of the grave-mounds discovered there with Vedic s'mas'_ana still considered valid? Are there any new publications on the subject? Any fresh discoveries of the sort? Regards, Artur Karp, M.A. University of Warsaw Poland From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 04:21:39 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 23:21:39 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042379.23782.2571735624616264172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > > >Turkish 'yarim' = half. So this could mean 'half-sighted'. > > Well, if you can find a Turkic word "asp-" with the appropiate > meaning. Or any Turkic word "asp-" at all. No. There is the very slight (an highly unlikely) k > x > 0 in kor/koz > oz/os/as (having to do with 'seeing, eye'). The word Arimaspi could itself be half&half :-) > > But what has Turkic *e:r, *erkek to do with PIE *wi:ros, or with > Herodotus' "oior"? Word like /ar/ also shows up (I think in Nilo-Saharan) for 'man', or 'people'. Words like /il/el/al/ or even /ur/ura/ etc also show up for 'land', 'people', settlement, etc so this is probably a very old word. So I think they are all from the same root.. > >These are dangerous territories. 'Deniz'/Tenngiz' means 'sea' in Turkic > >and is well established in other forms like 'tennger' (in l~r Turkic and > >Hungarian). > > Indeed, all the old forms have t-. The change to d- is recent, and > restricted to (Anatolian) Turkish. That rules out any connection Yes. > with (apart from the wrong vowel, the spurious -(ng)er/ There are two great branches of Turkic, denoted l~r (Bolgharic) and sh~z from the commonly observed equivalence l=sh and r=z. Tenger is 'sea' in Chuvash (which is Turkic) and also in Hungarian (possibly a borrowing). The /ng/ is the nasal-n also commonly observed. I think it is rather unstable since in some dialects it is /y/. IT seems to be also connected sometimes with /r/. > -(ng)iz at the end, and the wrong meaning). I don't care too much > for the etymology of "Caucasus", but the river names are surely > Iranian. Forget about and just look at Ossetian > "water, river"... Yes, Ossetian 'don' is water. But we'd have to see it in many other IE languages don't you think? > > > >That is not right. The Norse version of it 'atli' is a perfectly > >good Turkic word meaning 'horseman'. This problem arises because > >they first assume that 'atti' is Germanic > > Nope. Attila *is* Gothic for "little father" (Vaterlein), no > assumptions required. The river Yayik is/was Turkic for Volga or Don. The word shows up circa 200 BC, (which is 400-500 yrs before Turkic speakers are supposed to be there_, in Greek (can't recall the author), in form 'daichs/daix'. Doerfer reconstructs proto-Turkic as *d > *d' > *c > y. This first is the (in)famous d-Bolgharic. That also dovetails with Tuna's works, and also explains how the "Kashogs" (Kazaks) happen to be around the North of the Caucasus many centuries before they are supposed to be there. I also explained how the words kar/kaz etc could have come into being. Now, then, we need to know if Gothic has an attested /atti/ (for father) or /attila/ (little father) before at least 200 BC. Otherwise considering the fact that words like ata, atta (palatalized in Karachay-Balkar), apa, appa, akka, are all Turkic for father,and considering the the HUns were the superstratum and Goths the substratum, the likely conclusion is borrowing unless some very good reason for it is given. > > >for father when they > >should know by now that 'ata' is Turkic for father in practically > >every Turkic language. > > Yes, but not 'attila', with double -tt- and dimunitive suffix -ila. This is penny-ante stuff. Atta is an attested word in Karachay and Balkar of the CAucasus. The palatalized version sounds more like atti. Secondly it is clearly known that although Altaic revels in vowel-harmony, IE languages like contrast (i.e. inflection). That is the reason words like 'shishlik' become 'shashlik' in Russian. So there is no reason not to suspect that atta became atti. Similarly probably many words without consonant clusters were turned into clustered ones by IE langauges. One can see this in As-tarkhan > astrakhan, tumen-tarkhan > tmutarakan, or even koturgur > kutrigur, or maybe even kubulat > kubrat, etc. One can even include tur > troy. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 04:30:52 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 23:30:52 -0500 Subject: Important REsults Message-ID: <161227042381.23782.17270985247611724809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are some things which the readers should be aware of. In lists like this it is important for people to contribute things they are familiar with and which others may not be familiar with. Very recently two articles in Science News and Science bear on some of these discussions. 1. About 12,000 ya the sea levels were about 300 feet lower. That means that the Persian/Arab Gulf was probably dry land and ditto for the Red Sea. That means that the region comprising the East Coast of Africa, the Arabian Peninsula and parts of India were one contiguous land mass, at least a contiguous coastline. The Tigris and Euphrates probably flowed into the Indian Ocean. Now, about 5-7 years ago there was a report in science that a river bed was found via NASA satellites in the Arabian peninsula. And adding the river in today's Pakistan, that makes the four rivers comprising the "Garden of Eden". The sea levels then started to rise due to warming. 2. Circa 7500 (ya or BC) the Mediterranean broke the Bosphorus barrier and flooded the Black Sea which used to be a lake. The resulting inundation expanded the Black Sea and flooded the old coastlines and possibly drove the farmers along the coast further north. Now, a book by Lahovary (Dravidian and the West) which was written decades ago and saw cognates in presumably pre-IE and pre-AA languages of that region (possible ancestors of Dravidian, Basque, Berber, Sumerian, and some Caucasian languages) seems to be slowly being born out. There could have been a connection. There is more evidence for this but this is already long. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 04:33:10 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 23:33:10 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042384.23782.14774520631538010891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > > [...] > Regarding the Altaic culture, the similarities between Hsiung-nu and > later Turko-Mongol culture with the culture ascribed to Scythians by > Herodotus and others is well-known. Here is a partial list: > It would be interesting if some of our friends in Russia could look into the "Hyperborean" "Borean" words, and "Scythian words" published in Russian journals and books. I have had Miziev's book translated via an automatic translator, and looked into some of the words, but I cannot verify anything by looking at the references. Maybe others can. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 04:45:21 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 23:45:21 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042386.23782.17016123310380381274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > > There are many (dozens, hundreds) of scholarly works in English on the > subject, see e.g. J.Harmatta. Studies in the language of the Iranian tribes in South > Russia. - "Acta Orientalia" Budapest, t.I (1951), pp. 261-314; M.Rostovtzeff. > Iranians and Greeks in South Russia. Oxford, 1922; for the language of Eastern > Scythians - Sakas see fundamental works by H.W.Bailey and R.E.Emmerick, etc.). > But why are you going to limit yourselves with English sources only? If you > are ready to make a revolution in world linguistics and to prove that Scythian > language was not Iranian, how can you, being such a learned linguist, have any > difficulties at all with French or German? I am a computer scientist and engineer. We have these problems with freshman students in comp sci. They think they will spend the next 4 years learning to program in umpteen languages. Does being a linguist mean being able to converse in umpteen languages? In my school people who do that are in the Department of Foreign Languages. And then you will find another > hundred of titles in French (numerous works by G.Dumezil, E.Benveniste > and others) and German (e.g., works by J.Marquart). But I am sure that even > if you read all this it will not shake your belief that Scythians, together > with Sumerians and Etruscans, spoke (Proto-)Turkish. I am sure that in at least one of your courses, you have learned how to read things that are written and not read things that are not written. I know that mathematical precision is not one of the hallmarks of being a historical linguist but even for a fuzzy field there must be some rules in which one can know the difference between slight exaggaration and inaccuracy. > Olzhas Sulejmenov whom you refer to is no linguist, no historian, no > anthropologist; he is a talanted and well-known Kazakh poet, who tries since > the late 1970-ies in a diletant's way to prove the identity of Proto-Turks > with Sumerians and exceptional role played by them in the world history. > I don't know who are Tuna and Miziev, but if I may judge from your references > to their works they belong to the same genre of nationalistic "science"-fiction. I think I alread wrote about this. This is called "fallacy of argument from authority". And there is also another fallacy of association. An example goes like this: This guy is black. Blacks have never achieved great standing in science. So there is no reason to pay attention. There is really a very good reason why problems like this occur. It has to do with ignorance. If I ask the question "Does a qumquat look more like a quince or kiwi?" one must know what all 3 look like to make a decision. All IEnists see only IE words. That is natural because that is their area. But Altaicists should see Altaic words, but since most of them come from Europe, they don't see them. Then having formed a closed fraternity for 200 years they then blame everyone else who do not see things that way as "ethnic chauvinists". That is very funny, especially for people who were instrumental in creating the great "Aryan Racist Philosophy" of the 20th century. There has to be neutral referee. That great neutral referee has existed for 500 years. It is math, and its branch of probability theory is younger but is available for all those not too pompous. > > >That is also false. Romans called the Etruscans Tusci/Tursi. Turan was > >a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ is the root for > >birth and begetting in Turkic. That is not all. There is more, even up > >to and including the idea that 'troy' was really 'tur' and the Greek > >language created the consonant cluster. I posted a list of cognates > >between Chuvash and Etruscan at one time. > > A dozen years ago a Russian ultra-patriotic writer made similar > discovery. He is absolutely sure that the word "Etruscan" means simply > "Eto - russkij", that is: "This is a Russian". Why should not the > interested persons pay attention to this idea too? Turan was an Etruscan goddess of fertility. Perhaps you failed logic (if you ever took such a course) and probably never took a probability theory course. That explains why your reasoning processes are mixed up, to say the least. But fortunately there are others who might see things differently. > But not on this list. It is hightime, I think, for somebody to open, > let's say, "Nationalistic World history discussion club" (with the motto: > Nationalists of all nations, unite!). Let them all come Amen! Let's start from scratch, and get rid of creating a truth by assertion and by popular vote. That is one of the things holding up the present state of affairs. > together there and decide in a friendly discussion, once and for all, > what nation did Adam belong to, what language did Eve speak. > Without us. We shall better stick to the problems of Indology. > > This is my best wish to us all, > Ya.V. > > ______________________________ > > Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. > Department of South and SE Studies > Institute of Oriental Studies > Dvortsovaya nab., 18, > St Petersburg, 191186, > Russia > > Home address: Fontanka, 2, > kv. 617, St Petersburg, > 191187, Russia > tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 > e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 05:35:44 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 00:35:44 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042388.23782.11534685312925017252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > > Renfrew puts PIE around or before 6000 BC (the date of the earliest > farmers in Greece and the Balkans) or even earlier, in Anatolia > (Catal Huyuk, c. 7000 BC). Such dates are impossibly early, and > Renfrew's arguments are linguistically unsound in other respects (if > Hittite is the direct descendant of the "stay behinds" in Anatolia, > and Greek the direct descendant of the language of the first farmers > that crossed over from Anatolia to Greece, then we would expect Greek > to be closest to Hittite. In fact, Greek is much more similar to > Sanskrit than to Hittite). This could be a time effect, or a substratum effect depending on the observable facts. I can only give an example. Suppose an airplane flies from Oslo to Malta. IT starts at 9:00 AM and lands at Malta airport at 12:00. Suppose we put a temperature sensor on the airplane that records the ambient temperature. We later look at the change of temperature during this trip. There are two parts to this change. One part is a temporal effect and the other is a spatial effect. The temporal effect is due to the fact that it is colder at 9:00 AM than at 12:00. Even if the plane stood still in Oslo it would have recorded this change. The second is due to the spatial effect. IT is due to the fact that it is warmer in the south. Now, the spatial temperature change depends on the velocity of the plane. The faster this plane travels, the greater it records the change in the spatial temperature gradient over the north-south axis. So if Hittite and Greek and Sanskrit are not from exactly the same time period and did not have exactly the same substratum, it is difficult to make judgements for these effects. One would have to "normalize" the data to account for the effects of the substratum (spatial) and the effects of the time difference (temporal). In the case of the airplane, it is easy because it is called the hyrodynamic or total derivative and is given by a neat formula of calculus. In order to apply this idea to language we have to fix up a few things which are not too clear. > But I do agree with Renfrew that there's a striking similarity > between the expansion of Indo-European languages across Europe and > the expansion of agriculture across the same area. It has to be > borne in mind, however, that this expansion was not entirely gradual > as Renfrew has it, but proceeded in several stages. It is easy to > see how this came about: the Anatolian farmers, when they crossed > over into Greece, Bulgaria and southern parts of ex-Yugoslavia and > Romania, found circumstances similar to the ones they were used to in > Anatolia: basically hilly terrain and Mediterranean climate. I made a separate post on the effects of the rising sea levels. It takes a little time for info of this sort to diffuse from science journals into linguistics. > Admittedly, the common vocabulary for wheeled transport is a problem > for my theory (not as much as for Renfrew's version, of course). If > wheeled transport was invented c. 3500 BC, there is still a gap of > two millennia between my date for PIE breakup and the wheel. It could have been carried as a technological innovation by anyone, including a branch of IE. One of my teachers played this "joke" on us a long time ago. I have four bottles labeled A, B, C and X. I mix A & X and drink and get drunk. I mix A & Y and drink and get drunk. I mix A & Z and drink and get drunk. What can you say? Most people would say that X has alcohol. But what if A, B and C are vodka, whiskey, and brandy and X is just coke? It is not necessary to have the cart at the time of dispersal if there ever was such a thing. > Furthermore, most of the words in question are derived from common IE > roots (*weg^h- "to carry" -> "to tranport, to ride", *ak^s- "armpit, > arm, shoulder, wing" -> "axle", *kwel-, *kwekwel- "to turn, to spin" Doesn't this sound a little like Sumerian gigir? gigir=kwekwel=kekel? > -> "wheel, chariot", *retH-/*rotH- "to run" -> "wheel, chariot"). > Assuming a time depth of 2000 years (5500-3500 BC), and that the the > IE dialects were still largely mutually intelligible (as the Romance > languages are today), such transparent formations may have easily > been picked up and adopted by other Indo-European speakers, along > with the items themselves. Of course. Why not? -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Nov 7 15:30:31 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 07:30:31 -0800 Subject: [Important REsults] Message-ID: <161227042402.23782.18125712977085848713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mark wrote:[snip]>Very recently two articles in Science News and Science bear> on some of these discussions.> 1. About 12,000 ya the sea levels were about 300 feet lower.> That means that the Persian/Arab Gulf was probably dry land> and ditto for the Red Sea. That means that the region comprising> the East Coast of Africa, the Arabian Peninsula and parts of > India were one contiguous land mass, at least a contiguous > coastline. The Tigris and Euphrates probably flowed into the > Indian Ocean. [snip] Recently? When, which issues of the journals: Science News and Science? Was it, in any way, related the continental drift which is dated to millions of years ago? How was the date ca. 12k years ago arrived at? Thanks. Kalyan ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Nov 7 07:20:56 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 08:20:56 +0100 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <36429506.1FF87117@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042453.23782.14493124376411568078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: >That is also false. Romans called the Etruscans Tusci/Tursi. Turan was >a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ is the root for >birth and begetting in Turkic. Just a remark. The few we know about the Goddess Turan shows that She is the Etruscan equivalent of the Latin Venus and the Greek Aphrodite and nothing else. Hence, surely not a "fertility Goddess"! Assuming a link between Turan and "birth and begetting" shows the same flimsiness than, phonetically, between 'tur' and 'tuw'. Best regards, Dominique PS: The confusion between love and fertility is probably a common idea in some monotheistic religions, but Greeks and Romans made a clear difference between the both ;-) Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 7 16:33:41 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 08:33:41 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042407.23782.6803851844051170423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was really surprised to read P. K. Manansala's writing in Indology list earlier that "...,but I don't recall the horse as a particularly important symbol in the Greek, Roman, Persian or Celtic mythology I have seen. ..." All my readings indicate the opposite: Horse played a unique, important role in IE religion and culture. For eg., horses and Aryans go hand in hand in the Vedas. Reading the recent postings, Scythians are related to Iranians more than to anyothers. That is why, I am interested in references comparing the religious complex of Scythians and Altaic-Uralic peoples? Does the horse complex of the points given below really extending from Manchuria to Eastern Europe? Anybody else to confirm or deny about this? Any publications on the horse culture civilization myths compared for the "Scythian-Uralic-Altaic" cultures? For the record, I don't believe in Computers just skipping language groups and reaching others. My cousins work for Microsoft and IBM in India. They tell me their gurus are American (some may be India born Americans). Just as Buddhism and Islam also did not hop over to other lands from the lands of their birth. Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------- Regarding the Altaic culture, the similarities between Hsiung-nu and later Turko-Mongol culture with the culture ascribed to Scythians by Herodotus and others is well-known. Here is a partial list: 1. The joint burial of humans with horses often oriented toward East. 2. Fully nomadic society on horseback. 3. Slitting the throat of the chief's wife and servants on tomb 4. Cutting one's enemy's skull at eyebrow level, inlaying with gold and covering with leather to make a drinking cup. 5. Head-hunting. 6. Hanging scalps of victims from bridles. 7. Wide trousers strapped to the ankle. 8. Fur cap and cape. 9. Mourn dead by gashing face with knives so "blood flows with tears." 10. Had flocks of sheep and herds of horses, camel and cattle. 11. Meat and milk diet.Rarely practiced regular agriculture. 12. Dressed in skins. 13. Wolf as totem guard and revival totem. 14. Used felt tents and brought women and children in wagons. 15. Practiced shamanism based on worship of Heaven and sacred mountains. 16. Supreme leader summoned all tribes in the autumn for census of humans and animals. 17. Used raiding and fleeing tactics. 18. Depended on mounted bowmen in battle. 19. Used same feigned retreat strategies. 20. Both were experts at firing bows to the rear while mounted. 21. Slept on furs. 22. Usually shaved head except small tuft on top. 23. Used similar small yet fierce pony. 24. Switched horses in battle. 25. Drank blood of horse during battle to prevent dehydration. 26. Usually no beard except tuft on chin. 27. Sheath of bow suspended from belt in front of left thigh. 28. Quiver attached to belt and suspended across back with arrows to right. 29. Preferred mare's milk to other types of milk. 30. Similar burial in raised mounds. 31. Similar "plank and file" coffins 32. Similar bows ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 13:44:15 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 08:44:15 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042394.23782.8884230044748816679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: > > > One of my teachers played this "joke" on us a long time ago. > > I have four bottles labeled A, B, C and X. > > I mix A & X and drink and get drunk. > I mix A & Y and drink and get drunk. > I mix A & Z and drink and get drunk. > > What can you say? > > Most people would say that X has alcohol. I mixed up my variables obviously. It should be X in all cases not X,Y, Z. > Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 14:39:46 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 09:39:46 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Turkic-Sumerian Connection Message-ID: <161227042398.23782.833392332271248762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are some of the words, some of them with additions by me to the original post by someone else. -------------------------------------------------- Here are some more additions. In a couple more iterations we can have more words for everyone to look at. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, TIMUR KOCAOGLU wrote: >( Sm. = Sumerian, Tk. = Turkic, % = the loss of the consonant) > >A. Sound equations which CANNOT be recognized easily: > >a. Initial consonants: D, g, m, n, S, Sh, % > >I. Sm. .D ~ Tk. .y, % > >1. Sm. dar : 'spalten, zerschneiden, zerstoeren' (D.71; MSL, III, 100) > Tk. yar-: 'yarmak' [to break in the middle] (DLT, I, 399; KBI, 523) > >2. Sm. dib : 'Band' (D. 83) > Tk. yip : 'ip' [string, rope] (KBI, 546) Note that in some Kipchak dialects these words would be /car/ and /cip/. Furthermore, in d-Bolgharic they would be /dar/ and /dip/. Here are a few more: Sm. dir : zerspalten, zerstoren, umwerfen (D.86) Tk. yir : yirmek (DLT, III, 58) Sm. dirig : 'to be excessive, to be too much, too many (Grd.341) 'ubervoll sein, voll sein (D.87), diri 'ubergrosss'. Tk. irig : 'sert, kaba, hasin, gayretli' (KBI,199) iri 'kaba, sert', 'large, huge, voluminous, big' (Rd. 546) This is the word that showed up in the name Eridanus (i.e. iri) by Herodotus. And again, Doerfer has reconstructed proto-Turkic as *d > *d' > c > y > 0. In some cases the initial y >0 in Turkic languages such as cip/ip, cilan/yilan/ilan, cirt/yirt, cer/yer. These would have originally been dip, dilan, dirt, der, etc according to Doerfer, and Doerfer did this decades before Tuna's book came out, and Doerfer is a big name in Altaic/Turkic studies. Furthermore the old name for the Yayik River (Volga/Don?) shows up in Greek as daichs/daix exactly as it should have been. And it shows up circa 200 BC. Other d-Bolgharic words have been deciphered on Runic writings such as daga, dog, der, in addition to one that was already known, dilom (yilan=snake). Sm dirra : 'Hulfe' (D.87) Tk. yarI " (yardim) (help) Sm. tir : 'country' (MSL,III.87) Tk. yir : 'yer, toprak, yeryuzu' (KBI, 546)(land, earth) Sm. tu(5): 'waschen, baden, libieren' (D.206) Tk. yu(w): yikamak (to wash) > >II. Sm. .g ~ Tk. %, .y > >1. Sm. gamar : 'wuctig sein' (D.41) > Tk. agIr : 'aghIr' [heavy] (DLT, I, 52) > >2. Sm. garim : 'Fluss-Aue' (MSL, III, 109) > Tk. arIq : 'Irmak' [river, canal] Sm. gaz : 'to crush' (Grd.356), gaza (zerbrechen (MSL,III.143) Tk. ez : 'to crush, to pound', ezme 'crushed, pounded' Sm geme: 'Magd' (MSL,III.1250 Tk. eke : 'buyuk kiz kardes' (DLT,I,685) (older sister) Sm. gishig : 'Tur' (D.130), 'door' (EHG,436) Tk. eshik : 'kapi' (KBI,206) (door) >III. Sm. .m ~ Tk. .K > >1. Sm. mal : (Emesal) 'to stay' (for gal), (Grd. 384) > Tk. kal-: 'kalmak' [to stay] (DLT, I, 41; KNI, 215) > >2. Sm. marun : 'Ameise' (D. 160) > Tk. karIncha: 'karInca' [ant] (DLT, I, 501; III, 375) Sm. mir : 'anger' (MSL,IV,35) Tk. kiz : 'to be angry, cross..." SM. mu : 'name, fame' (Grd.388, MSL,V,220) Tk. ku : "un, shan' (DLT,III,212) (fame) >IV. Sm. .n ~ Tk. .y > >1. Sm. nad(9) : 'sich niederlagen, beschlafen; sich lagern' (D. 168; MSL, III,152) > Tk. yad- : 'yaymak, doshemek, sermek' [to spread, to lay down] (DLT, I, 15) The name "yayik", or "daichs" comes from this root. Sm. nigin : 'Summe' (D,171,MSL,III,111) Tk. yigin : 'yigin,kume, yigilmis' This word shows up closer to original form in Balkar as nigish. Sm. nunuz : 'bead' (EHG, 21; Falkenstein, 29) Tk. yinchu: 'inci,cariye (DLT,I,273) Sm. nurum : 'Licht' (D.170) Tk. yaruk : 'isik, aydinklik, parlak' (DLT,I,46)(light) >V. Sm. .S ~ Tk. .y, % > >1. Sm. sar : 'schreiben' (MSL, III, 113), 'to write' (Grd. 403) ~ shar id. > Tk. yaz-: 'shashmak, yanIlmak, chozmek, yazmak' [to write with > other meanings] (DLT, I, 192; II, 20, III, 59) Sm. sig : 'prime, good' (Salonen,22) Tk. yig : 'yeg,iyi, daha iyi' (good) Sm. silig : (II2) 'Hand' (D.182) Tk. elig : 'el' (DLT, I, 72; 4KBI,145) (hand) Sm. sheg : 'rain' (Grd. 412) TK. yag : 'yagmak' (to rain, to precipitate) Sm. shir : 'singen und spielen' (MSL,III,150) Tk. yir : 'kosma, turku, hava,.." This word is still 'jir' in Balkar, Tatar, and 'ir' in kyrgyz. 'Shiir' is poem Turkish and related words mean poem in lots of Turk* languages. Sm. zag : 'Grenze' (MSL,III,85) 'border' (MSL,V,70) 'shoulder, outer edge, boundary, border' (Grd,432) Tk. yaka : 'taraf,yan,civar' (EUSz,280) Tuna missed "chek" which still means 'border' today in KB. Szekely (Chek-eli) in Hungary probably means "borderlands" and Czechs were probably named that way the same way Ukrain, and Krajina got their names. BTW, in Kipchak languages, 'yaka' would be more like 'jaga'. >VI. Sm. .Sh ~ Tk. .ch > >1. Sm. sag : 'small child' (MSL, III, 78) > Tk. chagha: 'yeni dogmush' [new born infant] (YTsz. 48) Sm. sag : 'schlagen' (D.175) Tk. chak : 'chakmak, vurmak' (EUSz,58) The word for nail, "chivi" in Turkish, and "chuy" in KB seem related. The word was probably more like "chuk" for nail (although it now means something else in slang). Sm. zibin : 'Insect' (D.120) Tk. chibin : 'sinek' ... (i.e. fly) >VIII. Sm. .u ~ Tk. .kV/a > >1. Sm. ubur : 'weibliche Brust' (MSL, III, 145; D. 102), 'teats' (Grd. 426; Falkenstein, 26) > Tk. koguz: 'goeghuez' [breast] (KBI, 274; EUSz, 114: DLT, I, 366) Sm. ud: 'day, time (in general' (Grd.425) ud 'day' (MLSb) the consonants after the initial vowel of the word: d, d, m, r, sh > >I. Sm. d/ ~ Tk. d/ > >1. Sm. adakur : 'ein opfergefass fuer Getraenke' (Sm. Lw.)(Akk. Hwb. 9) > Tk. adak : 'ichki kadehi' [wine glass] )Hs. S. 559; Nh. F. 370-8; Muh. 7) Sm. gid : 'l. entfernen' (D.60) Tk. id : 'salmak, gondermek.." Although in most Turk* languages this seems to be something like "jiber" in KB we still find this in the form "iy". Sm. ud : 'Zeit' (D.104) Tk. o"d : 'zaman, vakit..'(DLT,I,44...) (time) >II. Sm. d/,. ~ Tk. n/, . > >1. Sm. dugud : 'schwer' (MSL, III, 141) > Tk. yogun : 'kalin, yoghun' [thick, heavy] (KBI, 549; DLT, III, 29) Sm. kid(2): 'Sonne' (D.149) (il-SHAMASH..) TK. kun : 'gun, gunes,..' (sun, day) SM. mud : 'blood' (Grd. 389) Tk. kan : 'kan..' (blood) Sm. udu : 'sheep' (Grd. 427), udu, 'Schaf' (MSL,III,111) Tk. kong : 'koyun, (sheep) Sm. shid: 'number, voting board' (MSL,V,15); shiti 'Rechnung, 'Zahl' (MSL,III,144) Tk. san : 'sayi, sayma...' (to count) >III. Sm. VmV ~ Tk. VKV > >1. Sm. amash : 'Schafhuerde' (MSL, III, 145), 'Umfriedung, Stall' (D. 13) > Tk. agIl : 'aghIl, koyun yataghi' [sheepfold] (DLT, I, 65, 73) Sm. imma : 'two' (Emesal, (Falkenstein) Tk. ikki : SM. umush: 'discernment' (Grd, 428), 'Verstand' (D.108) Tk. ukush : 'anlayish; (understanding) >IV. Sm. r/ ~ Tk. z/ > >1. Sm. bur : 'to spread abroad, to disperse of (a thing)' (Grd. 336; MSL, III,140, 170) > 'undo' (especially a spell),' 'to make a hole' (MSL, III, 67), buru 'harvest (moun)" (Grd. 336) > Tk. buz-: 'bozmak, yIkmak' [to demolish, to ruin] (DLT, III, 8) Sm. gur(5) : 'zerbrechen, zerschneiden,abtrennen' (D.55) Tk. u"z: 'to break'... Sm. har :'dig,dig quickly' (Prince,176) Tk. kaz : dig Sm. mir: 'anger' (Emesal) (MSL,IV<35) Tk. kiz: (to anger) Sm. sur : 'to squeeze, to press out (oil, juice)' (Grd. 408) Tk. suz : 'suzmek: (to filter, to squeeze out) >V. Sm. sh/ ~ Tk. l/ > >1. Sm. ashsha : 'six' (Falkenstein, 41) > Tk. altI : 'altI' [six] (EUSz. 13) Sm. tush: 'seat, to sit' (MSL,III,58), 'to dwell (in a place) Tk. ol : 'bulunmak, kalmak..." (to be) Sm ush : 'dead, to die' (Grd.431) Tk. o"l : (die) DLT,IT,38) This word shows up in both versions in Karachay i.e. aush (to die). >VI. c. The word endings in ae, g, m, Vr/z > >I. Sm. ae. ~ Tk. An. > >1. Sm. mae : 'I' (Grd. 386) > Tk. men : 'ben' [I] (KBI, 309, DLT, I, 20) SM. zae : 'you' (sing) Tk. sen : >II. Sm. g. ~ Tk. ng. > >1. Sm. asha(g) : 'field' (Grd. 326) > Tk. alang : 'alan, duz ve achIk yer' [field, open space] (DLT, I, 135) Sm. dag : 'daybreak, morning, dawn' (D.43) Tk. tang : (daybreak, morning) Sm. kalag : 'to be strong, vigorous, have power' (Grd.349) Tk. kalIng: 'kalabalik, cok suru, kalin, kesif' >III. Sm. m. ~ Tk. K. > >1. Sm. alim : 'Steppentier, Widder' (D. 13) > Tk. elik : 'geyik' [deer] (ETY, Ir. 97, II, 90; ....) Sm. shurum : 'a cattle stable' (D.201) Tk. surug : 'suru' (herd) >IV. Sm. CVr/z. ~ Tk. Cr/chV. > >1. Sm. dingir : 'Gott' (D. 84), 'god' (Grd. 341) > Tk. tengri : 'TanrI' [god] (DLT, I, 53, 68) > 'goek, sema' [sky] (DLT, III, 377) Sm. dubur : 'Hode' (D.78) Tk. yumru : 'top gibi yuvarlak' (Mn.Gz.78, v5)..(round) >B. Sound equations which CAN be recognized easily: > >1. Sm. agar : 'lead (metal)' (EHG. 34, 58) > Tk. agIr : 'aghIr' [heavy] (DLT, I, 52) > >2. Sm. azgu : 'neck-stock (for use with animals)' (Grd. 331) > Tk. asgu : from as- 'asmak' [to hang] 'asgu' [hanger] (Dsz. 342) > 'asgI', 'asku', 'askI' > >3. Sm. bulug : 'Grenze, Grenzegebiet' (D. 31) > Tk. bulung: 'koshe, bucak, zaviye' [corner] (DLT, II, 371) > >4. Sm. di : 'to speak' (Grd. 342) > Tk. ti-: 'demek' [to say, to speak] (DLT, III, 231) Sm Tk Meaning esh es blow gim kipi/kimi like,as hum kom Lager, stall iduga yidig perfume kad kada knupfen kash kach speed, run, ki kI-L make, do ku ko werfen,lagen,grunden, koymak kur koru guard, watch,protect men men ich, I nammu neme how much, what sum sun geben, give te(ga) teg touch, attain tin tIn Leben, life, breath u u schlaf, uyku (sleep) umush yumush hizmet, vazife,werk ush us verstand,akil zag sag right side >Prof. Tuna compares about 165 Sumerian words with 149 Turkic, 7 >Mongolian, and 1 Akkadian words. > >Prof. Tuna discussed and argued with his thesis and examples with the >following scholars: > >1. 1971 in Harvard University (Boston): Erica Reiner, Guterbock, >Herbert Paper, Omeljan Pritsak, Denis Sinor. > >3. In 1974: with George Cardona & Henry Hoenigswald [bothIndo-Europeanists], >John Faught [American Native Languages], Ake Sjoberg [Sumerologist], >Earl Leichty [Akkadian], Omeljan Pritsak [Turcologist, Slavist]. > >In conclussion, Prof. Tuna argues that there is an historical link >between the Sumerian and the Turkic languages in the past, and whether >they are related or not is not relevant at this point. But, with >these 168 words, he thinks he has established a sound ground for this >"historical link." > >Any comments? > >Timur Now, the serious question of historical linguistics cannot be avoided. Everyone talks about 'regular sound change'. But not too many can answer the question of 'how many'. This data of Dr. Tuna (who is a linguist with a PhD from University of Pennsylvania) cannot be evaluated correctly until and unless we have an idea of how many cognates are required to establish "genetic relationship". Something this important, something that strikes deep into the very core of historical linguistics methodology should have shaken any normal scholar into action. PS. The Sumerian Dictionary from the University of Pennsylvania is by Ake Sjoberg. PPS. I can easily find 30-50% cognates between Turkic and the Sumerian list published by Halloran on the WWW, without even trying too hard. PPPS. If anyone wants more, I have a 20 page paper titled "Story of Life & Death, and Love & War" that treats related topics in historical linguistics via examples of sound changes in Turkic languages. Finally, there have been a few people who have done some mathematical calculations of how many words can be found to be cognates accidentally or how many pairs of cognates are needed to establish geneticity. The numbers are quite small, say 3-7 pairs (by people like Cowan, Bender, Greenberg). I have also made calculations of this type, much more thorough than these people and even tested it via a computer simulation. They can be found in my book, "Mathematical and Computational Linguistics", Mir Domu Tvoemu, Moscow, Russia or in electronic form from http://www.1stbooks.com. The chapter that deals with these computations can be found on my website for free. Enjoy your readings! Regards, Mark Hubey http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 16204 URL: From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 14:42:14 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 09:42:14 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042401.23782.12986148231909430302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > Nowhere in the present-day European scholarly literature you can > find any traces of racial or ethnocentric prejudices (if you can - please > tell us, we shall discuss it). The last grotesque renaissance of Are you kidding? > > Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. > Department of South and SE Studies > Institute of Oriental Studies > Dvortsovaya nab., 18, > St Petersburg, 191186, > Russia > > Home address: Fontanka, 2, > kv. 617, St Petersburg, > 191187, Russia > tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 > e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Nov 7 16:16:11 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 11:16:11 -0500 Subject: [Important REsults] Message-ID: <161227042406.23782.17074569780286544236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > > Mark wrote:[snip]>Very recently two articles in Science News and Science bear> > on some of these discussions.> 1. About 12,000 ya the sea levels were about > 300 feet lower.> That means that the Persian/Arab Gulf was probably dry land> > and ditto for the Red Sea. That means that the region comprising> the East > Coast of Africa, the Arabian Peninsula and parts of > > India were one contiguous land mass, at least a contiguous > > coastline. The Tigris and Euphrates probably flowed into the > > Indian Ocean. [snip] > > Recently? When, which issues of the journals: Science News and Science? > Was it, in any way, related the continental drift which is dated to millions > of years ago? How was the date ca. 12k years ago arrived at? The Science article (about sea levels) was within a couple of months maybe a few weeks. The Black Sea article was also very recent but in Science News( a few months or weeks). The river in Arabia is years old, but it was in Science News. > Thanks. Kalyan > > ____________________________________________________________________ > More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Nov 7 20:12:15 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 12:12:15 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042418.23782.14705692405601283771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > Nowhere in the present-day European scholarly literature you can > find any traces of racial or ethnocentric prejudices (if you can - please > tell us, we shall discuss it). I don't know specifically about European literature, since it is written in a broad range of languages. However, just giving a few of the more extreme examples from the U.S. try reading _The Bell Curve_ or the numerous works of Philippe Rushton. Or even, on the lighter side, some of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s recent writings where he lauds Western culture as superior to that of others. Also, you might try investigating the eugenic roots of a great segment of the modern anthropological and genetic community of today. As late as the 1970s, many of today's top geneticists and anthropologists were members of open eugenic societies. A great number are still members of those societies, which have changed their names and operate now on a cryptic level. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Nov 7 20:12:32 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 12:12:32 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042416.23782.17779163399036576357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: > > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > > > > > But what has Turkic *e:r, *erkek to do with PIE *wi:ros, or with > > Herodotus' "oior"? > > Word like /ar/ also shows up (I think in Nilo-Saharan) for 'man', or > 'people'. Words like /il/el/al/ or even /ur/ura/ etc also show up for > 'land', 'people', settlement, etc so this is probably a very old word. > Yes, you have the Sumerian "ur" and even in Southeast Asia and the Pacific you have words like uru, ari, aru, uran, oran, etc. for "man, people." > > -(ng)iz at the end, and the wrong meaning). I don't care too much > > for the etymology of "Caucasus", but the river names are surely > > Iranian. Forget about and just look at Ossetian > > "water, river"... > > Yes, Ossetian 'don' is water. But we'd have to see it in many other IE > languages don't you think? > Again in Austronesian you have dan, dano, danum, tano for "water," and "tunu" for "left-over water." In Sumerian, "tin" means "liquid." I think this illustrates how difficult it is to make theories based on limited numbers of words without any reliable examples of morphology or phonology. From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Nov 7 20:12:45 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 12:12:45 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042420.23782.14735396110828634965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > I was really surprised to read P. K. Manansala's > writing in Indology list earlier that > "...,but I don't recall the horse as a particularly important > symbol in the Greek, Roman, Persian or Celtic mythology > I have seen. ..." All my readings indicate the > opposite: Horse played a unique, important role in > IE religion and culture. For eg., horses and Aryans > go hand in hand in the Vedas. Yes, but could you address the cultures I mention above. I agree that horses are fairly important in the Vedas, and also in later Indian religion. My knowledge of European and Iranian mythology and ritual is limited to a few university courses and some personal reading (like Dumezeil, Campbell, _The Golden Bough_, etc.). I don't recall the prominence of horses in these mythologies, although they do exist. The horse played a great role in the ritual of Altaic and certain Uralic peoples though. > For the record, I don't believe in Computers just > skipping language groups and reaching others. > My cousins work for Microsoft and IBM in India. > They tell me their gurus are American (some may > be India born Americans). Just as Buddhism and Islam > also did not hop over to other lands from > the lands of their birth. > Yes, but it doesn't involve any significant migrations of the originating culture (whichever that is) to the places now using computers. Just as Marco Polo presumbaly brought technology regarding gunpowder, the printing press, the mechanical clock and so on to the West, ideas can be carried without the need for population movements. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -------------------- > Regarding the Altaic culture, the similarities between Hsiung-nu and > later Turko-Mongol culture with the culture ascribed to Scythians by > Herodotus and others is well-known. Here is a partial list: > > 1. The joint burial of humans with horses often oriented toward East. > 2. Fully nomadic society on horseback. > 3. Slitting the throat of the chief's wife and servants on tomb > 4. Cutting one's enemy's skull at eyebrow level, inlaying with gold > and covering with leather to make a drinking cup. > 5. Head-hunting. > 6. Hanging scalps of victims from bridles. > 7. Wide trousers strapped to the ankle. > 8. Fur cap and cape. > 9. Mourn dead by gashing face with knives so "blood flows with > tears." > 10. Had flocks of sheep and herds of horses, camel and cattle. > 11. Meat and milk diet.Rarely practiced regular agriculture. > 12. Dressed in skins. > 13. Wolf as totem guard and revival totem. > 14. Used felt tents and brought women and children in wagons. > 15. Practiced shamanism based on worship of Heaven and sacred > mountains. > 16. Supreme leader summoned all tribes in the autumn for census of > humans and animals. > 17. Used raiding and fleeing tactics. > 18. Depended on mounted bowmen in battle. > 19. Used same feigned retreat strategies. > 20. Both were experts at firing bows to the rear while mounted. > 21. Slept on furs. > 22. Usually shaved head except small tuft on top. > 23. Used similar small yet fierce pony. > 24. Switched horses in battle. > 25. Drank blood of horse during battle to prevent dehydration. > 26. Usually no beard except tuft on chin. > 27. Sheath of bow suspended from belt in front of left thigh. > 28. Quiver attached to belt and suspended across back with arrows to > right. > 29. Preferred mare's milk to other types of milk. > 30. Similar burial in raised mounds. > 31. Similar "plank and file" coffins > 32. Similar bows > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Nov 7 20:15:19 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 12:15:19 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042424.23782.2868676725522398768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [snip]...ideas can be carried without the need for population movements. > Paul Kekai Manansala This seems to be the crux of the discussion thread as it has evolved so far. Unless there is substantial material evidence, e.g., movements of pottery-types, weapons, or chariots, it would appear to be a tough problem to distinguish between the two categories of phenomena: diffusion of ideas and demography. There is a good possibility that many languages were the parole, ca. 3000 BC, even in small geographical zones, as evidenced in Sumer; it is also notable that multiple languages did not deter or handicap, the expansion of the economic imperatives generated by the bronze-age discoveries. Regards, Kalyan ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 7 07:10:21 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 12:40:21 +0530 Subject: My ensuing visit to London: message to Sanskritists Message-ID: <161227042390.23782.18362934094806194665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" To Members, INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Nov 7, 1998 Dear Members, I am visiting London from mid-April to mid-May, 1999 to give talks in some institutes there on Yoga and some general topics in the area of Sanskrit and related languages and literatures. I write this to explore the possibility of making myself available to Sanskritists in London or nearby who are interested in my areas of specialization for which vide attached file. Regards. KSA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ksacv.doc Type: application/msword Size: 25600 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Nov 7 22:38:35 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 14:38:35 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042428.23782.1882203161019688215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > > > As I said, there is pretty good evidence to link Etruscan (and > therefore Lemnian) to IE, especially to Anatolian/Hittite, consistent > with 7000 BC as an approximate date of separation. But I think most linguists do not see any relationship between Etruscan and IE. >The linguistic > vs. geographical terminology is a little confusing of course. In my > map for, say, 4000 BC, the "Etruscoids" are in Greece and Anatolia, > possibly also in the Balkans, the "Hittite/Anatolians" are in the > Balkans or the Tripolye area (Romania/W.Ukraine), and the "Greeks" > are in the Ukraine. It would be some time before everyone was in > their proper place (3000 ~ 2500 BC or so for Hittite and Greek, 1200 > BC for Etruscan). > > >I wonder also how you explain to > >yourself the fact that agriculture spread also around the Mediterranean > >coast from Turkey and Greece as far as Spain and then northwards to France > >and Britain. Do you maintain that it was by speakers of IE? > Many people explain the spread of agriculture through demic diffusion originating somewhere in Syro-Palestine or Mesopotamia. I'm sure if you can put a language tag, but the thrust seems more toward peoples like the Etruscans, Basques, Picts, etc. That is, people before IE migrations. > No, that is one of Renfrew's more silly theories. There is > sufficient evidence in SW Europe for non-IE speakers, especially in > Spain with Iberian, Tartessian? and Basque. Italy and France (apart > from Basque-speaking Aquitania) are less clear (Etruscan being a > recent arrival from the Aegean, not a pre-IE survival), but we have > the Novilara stela from E.Italy in a non-IE, non-Etruscan language, > and the toponymic evidence for non-Celtic elements in Ligurian. > Which is another thing that is absent in the area from the Low > Countries through Germany to Poland: traces of the pre-IE > inhabitants. If the LBK/TRB (5500-3000 BC) people were not IE, we > would expect to find something. > Well, the substratum could come from extinct languages that, unlike Etruscan, were not literate. Or they were literate and have not left traces that have been found. I don't think anyone would suggest that Germanic and Slavic are "pure" languages free of any non-IE influence. Certainly there are at least some Finno-Ugrian influences even in the oldest examples of these languages. Regards, Paul Kekai Manasala From info at TICONSOLE.NL Sat Nov 7 15:36:08 1998 From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 16:36:08 +0100 Subject: Paired Horse and blabla Message-ID: <161227042404.23782.11122700679838675790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: > > > One of my teachers played this "joke" on us a long time ago. > > I have four bottles labeled A, B, C and X. > > I mix A & X and drink and get drunk. > I mix A & Y and drink and get drunk. > I mix A & Z and drink and get drunk. > > What can you say? > > Most people would say that X has alcohol. And later: >I mixed up my variables obviously. It should be X in all cases >not X,Y, Z. Still a bit drunk of all those mixtures? Instead of three times A, it makes more fun with A, B, and C. So, I have four bottles labeled A, B, C and X. I mix A & X and drink and get drunk. I mix B & X and drink and get drunk. I mix C & X and drink and get drunk , which might led to the conclusion: X is the alcohol, neglecting the possibility of ABC being liquors. Anyway, I like your joke; it keeps people alarmed at one-sided conclusions. Sandra van der Geer Leiden, NL info at ticonsole.nl URL: http://www.ticonsole.nl/books From as at AS3442.SPB.EDU Sat Nov 7 13:43:08 1998 From: as at AS3442.SPB.EDU (Alexandre Sotov) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 16:43:08 +0300 Subject: test Message-ID: <161227042396.23782.11127975201784197968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> test From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Nov 7 17:13:55 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 18:13:55 +0100 Subject: Kusunda et al. Message-ID: <161227042409.23782.17656098110984660309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >Oops, I hadn't noticed the switch in mailing lists... >For puzzled Indology members, I should explain that this was a >discussion on the Nostratic list about Kusunda, Yes, how on earth did that thread jump from Nostratic to Indology? >In that context, Jacob had mentioned Elfenbein about >Brahui, and had subsequently consulted prof. Krishnamurti. My >response had gone to the Nostratic list, and I thoughtlessly failed >to add prof. Krishnamurti to the recipient list, for which I >apologise. Yes I was in the same situation. There was no good way to involve prof. Krishnamurti in the discussion since he does not read the Nostratic list and I think mixing lists and personal email addresses in messages can only result in confusion, so I simply gave his email in my message and relied on the fact that readers interested in his argument could contact him directly if they wished. >>Who said there are no IA loans in Brahui? Wrong! > >Not me. Grin. It was me, but it was from B.Sergent's account of J.E.'s paper. Please please do not rely on that to judge it. The reference is: Joseph Elfenbeim, "A periplus of the Brahui problem", Studia Iranica, 16.2 (1987), 215-233 From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Nov 7 17:14:00 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 18:14:00 +0100 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042411.23782.8956204791502581670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel wrote: >But I do agree with Renfrew that there's a striking similarity >between the expansion of Indo-European languages across Europe and >the expansion of agriculture across the same area. But your theory is based on nothing else than this "striking similarity" and attempting to deconstruct all the evidence assembled in favor of what you call the "standard theory", and that includes the argument of the lack of archeological signs of an invasion in northern Europe which may be a problem for the usual theory -- btw certainly not as much as what it is made out to be -- but certainly does not add any probability to your own theory. Your theory is probably based on the belief that language replacement functions according to one model only (demographic imbalance) and you want to find that demographic imbalance as a result of a neolithic "wave of advance". I'd say that simply denotes a lack of imagination. It is in fact probable, as in many historical situations, that language replacement can occur according to a variety of models and not one simple model fits all historical situations. So you do not need to posit demographic imbalance in favor of the "winner" of the process. My rule of thumb is, if one's picture of a historical situation is only based on a simple deductive argument, it is probably wrong. Of course you need models if you've got nothing else, but in this case we have face to face a simplistic deductive model (together with some deconstruction of the evidence painstakingly assembled by the other theory) and on the other hand a detailed careful set of inductive arguments stemming from linguistics, archeology, mythology, poetry, etc. Even if the inductive argument has some holes in it, there is no doubt in my mind as to which one is going in the right direction. But the most important point is, again, you have got not one single serious positive argument of your own to defend your theory. Assuming your deconstruction was pertinent, you would only have succeeded in showing that we don't know anything, or that we don't know as much as we thought we knew, but certainly not in showing that your own theory is more probable (than it would otherwise be). >It is easy to see how this came about: the Anatolian farmers, when they >crossed over into Greece... Into Greece??? By a very wide agreement I believe pre-Greek language(s) of Greece are considered non-IE as I'm sure you know. I'm really curious what you do to be able to disregard that. I wonder also how you explain to yourself the fact that agriculture spread also around the Mediterranean coast from Turkey and Greece as far as Spain and then northwards to France and Britain. Do you maintain that it was by speakers of IE? If not, why do you feel you need IE for the expansion northwards thru the Balkans, etc. but not in this other case? >Frankly, I have never looked at this comparative mythology / >comparative religion angle too closely. And what I've seen of it >doesn't convince me at all. I think there are great differences >between Roman and Indic religions. And there are similarities >between all religions, be they Indo-European or otherwise. For example 'jupiter', 'zeus pater' and 'dyauH pitaa' are just coincidences? Or go back to the neolithic? Btw, my questions are slightly rhetorical. I know you'll find a way to deconstruct such evidence, that is to find some alternative explanation that will be just marginally possible, but the thing is you have got to do that for a long list of items and one can start asking if it is not stretching it a bit that for every single one of those items it is precisely the less probable scenario that happened just so that your own theory becomes possible? (Incidentally 'less probable' does not refer here to a rigorous computation of probabilities which I doubt it is even possible to do but to the intuitive sense that allow specialists to estimate that one scenario or another is more plausible) From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Sat Nov 7 23:48:09 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 18:48:09 -0500 Subject: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042433.23782.16587517670424752626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > [Question: why cannot the Painted Grey Ware be dated more precisely?] I thought that it was because C14 dating stubbornly refuses to give anything older than 900 BCE while people, for various reasons, want older dates than that. -Nath From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Nov 7 17:50:17 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 18:50:17 +0100 Subject: I-I metrics (was SV: method of dating RV, III) Message-ID: <161227042413.23782.10979144321892854747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: >It is also hard to tell whether Z's 'primitive' syllable-counting metrics >represents an older, conservative stage of IE metrics, or whether it is >itself an innovative development from an older metrical system represented >by old Vedic. > >The questions that you ask are interesting, but I for one am unable to see >how one can legitimately answer them. > >Perhaps the list's ziSTas can. I was just interested in what the current majority thinking was, since people have obviously been thinking about that: Meillet (whom you have mentioned), Jakobson, Nagy, Schmitt, Kurylowicz and others. Here I can't resist quoting Beekes' short remark in the introductory part of his "Comparative IE Linguistics" (p.43) that "it is perhaps more likely that the Avestan system is the older of the two" since "in general, it is not very probable that metrical structures can be preserved over such a long time, that is, for 1500 to 2000 years" which is an absolute non sequitur. From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sun Nov 8 00:06:08 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 19:06:08 -0500 Subject: FYI---[Fwd: African ancestors of Ural-Altay peoples] Message-ID: <161227042434.23782.2687005797585263751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H. M. Hubey wrote: > > This if from McEvedy. I wonder if anyone can direct me to books from > which this knowledge is apparently/allegedly derived. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Anthropologists recognize four distinct sub-Saharan populations: > Negroes, Nilo-Saharans, Pygmies, and San. The Negroes' original homeland > was the forest and bush country of West Africa: they were, and are, big, > black-skinned and broad-nosed. The Nilo-Saharans are also big and black, > but noticeably thinner in both the body and face: at the time of this > map, they were probably confined to the Middle Third of the Nile Valley > and the area immediately round it. The rest of sub-Saharan Africa (bar > the Horn) was divided between the Pygmies and the San. The Pygmies' > habitat is the rain forest of the Zaire basin. They are really small > ...; their skin is brown to black, their noses broad and their hair > scanty. The San are bigger without being big and yellow rather than > brown or black; their hair grows in tufts that give it a characteristic > 'peppercorn' look. Now they are confined the Kalahari desert in the > south-west of the continent, but at the time we are talking of they had > the whole eastern and southern Africa to themselves. > > Africa north of the Sahara was part of the wider world and inhabited by > people descended from the 'out of Africa' contingent.The group they > belonged to includes Semites of Arabia and other parts of the Middle > East and is referred to by linguists as Afro-Asiatic: the African > (Hamitic) members are Berber (spoken in the Maghreb], Coptic, and > Cushitic. Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sun Nov 8 00:09:02 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 19:09:02 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Wake up call for the semester :-)] Message-ID: <161227042436.23782.16542965213522578882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: > > Other lists are doing it, why not us :-) > > How about these: > > 1. Meroitic -k, Barea -ge: Fenno-Urgic -k 'to' (e.g. Ingrelian ala-k > 'down'. > > 2. Meroitic -te, Nubian -do locative suffix 'in': Old Turkish -ta, -da > 'in' Finnish -ta 'in' > > 3. Meroitic -k feminine suffix: Mongolian -k-chin feminine of > adjectives; Meroitic kdi 'woman': Turkish kari 'woman' (correspondence > d:r looks better than d:ss but to make the matter even more surprising, > there is one Eastern Turkish language, where the word for woman is > kissi!) > > 4. Meroitic t demonstrative, Nubian ter 'he' etc. Mongolian tere 'he' > 'that', Finnish 'te' 'this one' (I used te instead of ta-unlaut) > > 5. Old Nubian -ka accusative suffix: Old Turkish -g, -ig, Mongolian -g, > -gi accusative suffix. > > 6. Old Nubian -ka dative suffix: Old Turkish -qa, -ke dative suffix > > 7. Old Nubian -n(a) genitive suffix: Mongolian -in, -n, Fenno-Ugric -n > genetive suffix. > > 8. Old Nubian -r 'intentive' verbal suffix; Old Turkish -r, Finno-Ugric > -r factitive verbal suffix. > > 9. Meroitic tar 'give' causative verbal affix (according to Dr. Priese) > Old Nubian tir 'give' causative verbal affix: Old Turkish -tur 'give' > causative verbal affix > > 10. Old Nubian -a participle, conjunctive converb: Old Turkish -a > conjunctive converb > > 11. Old Nubian -ra predicative converb: Mongolian -ra final converb > > 12. Old Nubian -sa verbal participle praeteriti: Mongolian -san > participle praeteriti > > 13. Old Nubian -s verbal suffix, praeteritum: Fenno-Ugric -s verbal > suffix, praeteritum (cf. Old Nubian ki-s-in 'you came' with Wogulian > min-s-en 'you came') > > 14. Old Nubian -men (-m-en) negation of verbs: Old Turkish -ma negation > of verbs > > 15. Old Nubian -in,-en verbal suffix, 'you' 2 sg: Wogulian -en verbal > suffix 'you' 2. sg. > > 16. Old Nubian possessive pronoun=genetive of personal pronoun (ir > 'you', in-na 'your'): Old Turkish the same ('sen' 'you', san-ing > 'your'), Mongolian the same (chi 'you', chinu 'your') > > 17. Old Nubian -t, -it deverbal nouns: Old Turkish -t, -it,-id deverbal > nouns > > 18. Old Nubian -ki deverbal nouns: Turkish -ki abstract nouns, > Finno-Ugric -k deverbal nouns > > 19. Old Nubian min 'what', Mongolian men 'what': Wogulian men 'what', > Hungarian mi 'what'; > > 20. Old Nubian -guria 'because of': Turkish -gore 'because of' > > This connects Eastern-Sudanic (Old Nubian) with Uralo-Altaic. > > OK. I spill the beans: these are from Fritz Hintze's article. That is > the reason for the strange spellings. Anyway, I think family > relationships based on less than this have already been proposed and > accepted in some cases in the Americas and in Africa. Is that right? -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/+AH4-hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Nov 8 03:13:30 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 19:13:30 -0800 Subject: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042447.23782.14295004636142337995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > > On this list, as opposed to others that Mark Hubey may be on, a preliminary > prerequisite is a basic command of the relevant languages. That is my > opinion, at least. > > Of course, I may be wrong. Joseph Greenberg and the Nostratic theorists would probably say you are wrong. I'm sure they have only the slightest knowledge of the thousands of languages they compare (usually on the basis of words lists). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Nov 7 18:36:30 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 19:36:30 +0100 Subject: I-I metrics (was SV: method of dating RV, III) Message-ID: <161227042415.23782.2175499601386664673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops. I wrote: >I can't resist quoting Beekes' short remark in the introductory part of his >"Comparative IE Linguistics" (p.43) that "it is perhaps more likely that >the Avestan system is the older of the two" since "in general, it is not >very probable that metrical structures can be preserved over such a long >time, that is, for 1500 to 2000 years" which is an absolute non sequitur. I chopped part of my quote. Here it is: "It is perhaps more likely that the Avestan system is the older of the two. In general, it is not very probable that metrical structures can be preserved over such a long time, that is, for 1500 to 2000 years. It is, then, more probable that IE verse consisted of a fixed number of syllables, as was the case with Avestan". Also I forgot to ask. In Skt 'gaatha' designates a stanza in the aaryaa meter. Now the word is just from gai 'to sing' so I don't know why there should be anything "deep" going in on here, but is it all significant that Av. also uses that term? More generally how do the non-Vedic IA meters relate to the supposed IE or IIr schemes? Could it be that IIr prosody was richer and more varied that is generally assumed and that there were several concurrent systems used according to, say, tradition or "repertoire"? (In that case the differences, ok, ok, the minor differences between V. and Av. system would not be a problem at all and there would be nothing to reconcile. That reminds me also of the question of the Gk hexameter. I think some people assumed it must have been borrowed from non-IE sources. But how necessary is that?) From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sun Nov 8 00:55:46 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 19:55:46 -0500 Subject: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042438.23782.12371314153296053482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > > > Sorry, but the logic of your teacher's "joke" kind of keeps escaping me - > even with the new set of two variables - A and X. The correct version was posted by someone; it is mix A&X, B&X, and C&X giving the impression that X must have alcohol while it is perfectly easy to have A, B and C to be alcoholic drinks. The real question is if this is a problem of probability or logic or possibility. 1. If it is one of probability and if any bottle can be alcoholic or nonalcoholic with equal probability then we can compute which is more likely. 2. If it is one of logic, then someone can purposefully rig it in any way, and we should not deduce one or the other. 3. Fuzzy logic is supposed to deal with "possibility theory". We have then other tools to decide if one or the other is "possible" etc. Many problems in HL (historical linguistics) are about attempts to reach conclusions. These may be deduced; they may be "most likely" events, or "possible" events, or simply beliefs due to inertia (and lots of wishful thinking and a residue of past ethnic/national chauvinism without the proponents being aware that it is so). > Which brings me to the question of logic as opposed to the way of thinking > that you seem to believe is prevalent in some "fuzzy" disciplines (like > historical linguistics). > > But first - a bit of personal reminiscing. > > During 1968/69 I had the opportunity to work as a documentalist at the > neolithic site (VI-II M BC) in Bylany (Czech Republic). I still remember > with what great caution syntheses were formulated, even if the specialists > working there had at that time over 250 000 carefully documented (and > statistically processed) objects at their disposal. The main problem - if I > remember well - had to do with the difficulty in evaluating the possible > impact of some important variables, like the natural horizontal and > vertical movement of the archaeological strata. There are two separate but related concepts here: 1. Reliability & Validity (of measurement) 2. Certainty The first is about errors in measurement, and that can also affect the second which is about how certain we are of the most likely answer. In physical measurements (such as with a ruler) both precision and accuracy usually go hand in hand. IOW, if we have a high-precision instrument we usually get good accuracy. For example, suppose I send two people (separately) to measure the length of something. One reports 175.988765 cm and the other reports 180 cm. Suppose I test it myself and find it 181 cm. The first has a high degree of precision but is not accurate, the second has less precision but more accurate. In nonphysical sciences, these terms are reliability and validity. Reliability refers to the capability to get the same measurement over and over if nothing changes. Validity refers to how good the measurement actually measures what it purports to measure. For example if I take 10 shots at a target and miss the bullseye with all but the shots all cluster in a small spot, I shot reliably (but not accurately/validly); if the shots scatter all around the target but are distributed randomly, the average can be bullseye (so it is not reliable but valid/accurate because social science tests are repeated in large numbers and averages are taken). 2. Now suppose I take some random samples of something (i.e. like a social science questionnaire) and average the results to arrive at some most likely conclusion. The relevant statistic is not just the average but also the variance. The variance tells how certain/uncertain the average is. Look at a single measurement. It may not be the average at all, so the variance (uncertainty) is high. But if I take a sample of 1000 (say of heights of adults) the variance (uncertainty) of the average height is small. In this case we don't have problems with reliability and validity because measuring spatial distance is easy, and reliable and valid. > Scantier or more doubtful material would have allowed only weak, tentative > hypotheses. With "fuzzy" stratigraphy (in historical linguistics - "fuzzy" > etymology and "fuzzy" diachronical fonology/morphonology), the use of > sophisticated statistical instruments isn't necessarily conducive to > producing better quality theories. [Question: why cannot the Painted Grey > Ware be dated more precisely?] But it certainly gives work to statisticians > and probability theory specialists. That is the small sample problem if the PGW contains carbon compounds. If it had carbon from living things it could be calculated reasonably accurately. I do not know if PGW contains such material or if the material is mixed with noncarbon compounds. > What kind of result can one expect if one wants to analyze statistically a > very limited set of words? Like the one posted by S. Kalyanaraman on Nov. 5 > (where he says: < also look at some transportation lexemes and IE synonyms, from Carl Darling > Buck to formulate some statistically testable hypotheses>>). If it is limited (small sample) the result is highly uncertain. Probability theory at least gives you a real number of uncertainty. As Pascal said; "Probability is common sense in numbers." But it also provides more. It makes it possible to compare things to each other by normalization. It also makes it possible to compute some baseline figures for comparison purposes. For example, we should have some idea of how many words could "resemble" each other between different languages if these languages were created independently of each other so that there would be no correlation of sounds and meanings. > > What is the minimum size of statistical series, below which there can be no > talk of statistically meaningful results (since probabilities would just > tend to dissolve in the thin air)? What happens if such a set contains > material of uncertain quality (mistakes, borrowings, calques; S. > Kalyanaraman's set has all these characteristics)? YOu can tell if some occurrence is possible/likely due to chance or not. > I do not think the reluctance with which historical linguists reach for > mathematics-derived methods has anything to do with the "fuzziness" of > their discipline, or lack in logic, or the unwilingness to let themselves > tested against the presence of some <<"Aryan Racist Philosophy" of the 20th > century>> virus. It's rather - it seems - a question of the very basic > demands - testable quality and a proper size of series of objects (words) > being the most important of them. I only do that if I am insulted :-) Most of this is "inertia". People stick to what they learned in school. This happens in comp sci too. It is not as well developed as math or even engineering. So if a student sees something in a book he thinks it is some kind of a standard truth, whereas it might be just something proprietary and transient. The problem is that things hang around for a long period of time because there are so many people who believe in them. So things don't get wiped out quickly. Their residue tends to hang around. There was email going around about a year ago that the width of the British railroads was due to an old Roman standard on road width which had to do with accomodating a two horse chariot. That's how long things can persist. > Employing probability theory as neutral referee (< branch of probability theory is younger but is available for all those not > too pompous.>>) may be only warranted by the kind of material one has at > hand. Certainly, it is available - but not always helpful. (Although - > ultimately, it might help someone suddenly discover their ability to speak > in prose...) There is one are in which it is immensely helpful. Speech recognition algorithms of computer science (which should have been "linguistics"). But it will also be immensely helpful if we can decide that two languages might have up to N chance "cognates". > > There are times when one is clearly better off by sticking to good old > s(t)olid procedures. > > Such procedures, however, since they are the product of pre-post-modernist > modes of thought, do not permit everything to be connected with everything. The reason I bring this up, is really point out that much of what passes for science (or truth) is basically "assertion" and "vote". Things get repeated for 2 decades and then nobody will change his mind. Only when pointed questions are asked are people forced to think about something which they thought they knew for sure. > Regards, > > Artur Karp, M.A. > > University of Warsaw > Poland -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sun Nov 8 01:25:15 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 20:25:15 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042442.23782.5396498736615029896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > I do accept all the *evidence* assembled in favour of a Ponto-Caspian > homeland. I do believe that during the Yama/Kurgan cultural phase > (3500 BC-2500 BC), and maybe beginning slightly before that, > Indo-European peoples spread out from there east and west and > established themselves in the Hungarian plain / the Balkans and in > Central Asia. There is good archaeological evidence for that, and it The northwestern part of the Black Lake (sea after the inundation circa 5500 BC?) was submerged because of the iruption of the Mediterranean. That area could have been home of early farmers and could have forced them to disperse from there into Europe. That much was written in the Science News article. What language they spoke remains a mystery. However, there are some strange things. The Black Sea was called "Carbolic" (Karbalik or karabalik) meaning either "much, abundant fish" or "black/dark mud" both in, yes, you guessed it Turkic or some language related to Sumerian or maybe even a "Mediterranean language" (due to Lahovary, who puts Etruscans, Sumerians, Berbers, Nilo-Saharans, Dravidians and some Caucasian languages into a pre-IE and pre-AA group). I think 'gar' is Sumerian for 'large, strong, abundant'. It should be noted that Lahovary's book dates from circa 1960s. Meanwhile the fact that the sea levels were 300 feet lower and thus that EAst Africa, Arabian Peninsula, and India were "one contiguous region" is a newer idea written up in Science recently. AT this time North Africa was humid and fertile. Tuna's Sumero-Turkic cognate book is circa 1990. So they are converging towards similar ideas and are mutually supporting. What probably happened was that as the glaciers melted the equatorial belt started to dry up, it not only separated this single region, but the drying up of the river in the Arabian peninsula also forced people to move around. The North Africans probably moved westwards into Egypt, and maybe the Congoids moved eastwards and forced the Nilo-Saharans also into motion. This time of great mixing in the Middle East probably gave rise to centuries of bilingualism and trilingualism and the mixture of these with the old languages of that area probably gave rise to a new set of languages now recognized as AA and IE. This also explains why some of these "mediterranean" languages' words pop up in both IE and AA. Probably one of these migrant peoples moved northwards via the CAucasus and into the plains and these could be the reasons for the Turkic-Sumer cognates, and why so much evidence points to the Turkic homeland in the West, and not East. IT also explains why the m > k (Sumer>Turkic) also occurs in Dravidian>Turkic (which I just discovered in Lahovary's book). It also explains how I could find about 30 pages of Hittite-Turkic cognates and why so much of Hittite is non-IE and why its syntax (verb grades) resembles AA binyanim, and why some of its words are practically identical with ancient-old Turkic. And the Sumer > Turkic change n > y can also be found in Mongol > Turkic. Other changes such as r > y or l>y or r>sh, or l>z can also be found in Dravidian>Turkic, etc. I should also note that Tuna does not claim Sumerian and Turkic are related at all. He notes that all the words he found, were labeled by the great Sumerologist Benno Landsberger as "proto-Euphratic" not Sumerian. That is essentially the region where a people named Turuk(ku) are found (check the Cambridge ANE series). Not only the Turuk(ku) but also the Kuman(ni) and the Khumuk(ku), and the Kashkai (all Turkic speaking at later times) are in that region. A large part of this evidence points to that region. > > Even if all IE languages spread out from the Pontic-Caspian between > 4000 and 3000 BC, in several different waves (and there's precious It is hard to believe that they could have spread in carts in a region without trees. it is likely that they were made in the civilization centers. A treeless steppe is hardly a place where nomads can make carts, wheels, cast bronze (especially since copper is lacking almost completely in that region) to make weapons etc. The impetus could have come from the south via the Caucasus and the Caucasus not only has metals but also trees and is close to the Middle EAst. That is also the place where the Caucasian speakers could have mixed with arrivals from Africa and the other "Mediterranean" folks to create new languages. The migration routes and other things would be very difficult to sort out, but Anatolia/ME looks like a good region or at least one of the regions. The other region could be those that moved from north of the Black Lake (after the inundation) into the surrounding regions. > little evidence for that), and assuming of course that the Hittites > were the first to leave, that only gives the rest of IE at most 1000 > years or so to develop all the innovations that separate it from > Anatolian. I say that's impossible. At least two millennia seems > like a much more credible margin (my date of 5500 BC, coinciding with > the split off of the Danubian/LBK-complex). If long term multilingualism was created in the ME things could have changed very rapidly to create languages like and unlike those that they were produced from. > No, that is one of Renfrew's more silly theories. There is > sufficient evidence in SW Europe for non-IE speakers, especially in > Spain with Iberian, Tartessian? and Basque. Italy and France (apart > from Basque-speaking Aquitania) are less clear (Etruscan being a > recent arrival from the Aegean, not a pre-IE survival), but we have There are also the Trojans, who Herodotus says moved to the Balkans. > >For example 'jupiter', 'zeus pater' and 'dyauH pitaa' are just > >coincidences? Or go back to the neolithic? Circassian Dza Yeus? Parma Thaus (Prometheus)? Tiat Tians (Titans?) Could be home-cooked by K. Natho, but you never know. Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Nov 7 19:47:41 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 20:47:41 +0100 Subject: diabetes, epilepsy, hedgehogs Message-ID: <161227042422.23782.15367413709276569773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Three >completely< unrelated questions: 1. Is it true that diabetes is particularly common in Bengal? If so, why? (I was just intrigued by a footnote in R. Rolland's "Vie de Ramakrishna", chap. 6, "Le diabete, un des fleaux du Bengale. Vivekananda aussi [comme Keshab Chunder Sen] y succomba" 2. Did epilepsy have in India the same kind of divine associations that it had in Europe? 3. Gypsies consider hedgehog a delicacy. They bake it inside a lump of clay (or so my mother described it to me; she used the French term "terre glaise". I'm not sure it is clay but it should be close. Sorry for any technical inaccuracy). My question is: could this custom have an Indian origin? (Btw, is the study of Gypsies considered to be part of Indology?) From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Nov 8 04:51:48 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 20:51:48 -0800 Subject: [On logic and fuzziness] Message-ID: <161227042451.23782.17593935147402435482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [snip]> Employing probability theory as neutral referee (< branch of probability theory is younger but is available for all those not> too pompous.>>) may be only warranted by the kind of material one has at> hand. Certainly, it is available - but not always helpful. (Although - > ultimately, it might help someone suddenly discover their ability to speak> in prose...)> > There are times when one is clearly better off by sticking to good old> s(t)olid procedures.> > Such procedures, however, since they are the product of pre-post-modernist> modes of thought, do not permit everything to be connected with everything.>[snip] Artur Karp I agree with Artur Karp. Fuzziness is, by definition, unavoidable, in dealing with lexemes, for example. There are so many variables which impact on the accuracy of the 'meanings' or 'phonetics' presented in the lexicons, a lot of caution has to be exercised in testing language hypotheses. As a statistical student, in my graduate studies, I was taught that there is something called 'spurious correlation' which a researcher should watch out for. A good example is a statement to this effect: geographical areas which have struck petroleum are likely to be of Islamic faith. Another example which can be cited relates to the century-old problem of Indus script decipherment. It is a statistical impossibility to decipher a set of about 3000 inscriptions each inscription having an average of 5 signs plus a pictorial motif, the total number of signs, pictorials and ligatures of the sign and pictorial stes, being more than 500. Cryptography will fail with such a set; assuming that an entire sentence can be read from an inscription, and assuming that each sign or pictorial is a syllable or an alphabet, one would need at least an average of seven signs per inscription and the total sample will have to be more than 10,000 for decoding the crypt with a reasonable level of assurance that the phonemes assigned to each sign are 'probable'. Lot of words...any statistician will reject this verbal jugglery and some may even declare it illogical. This has not prevented the appearance of nearly hundred claims of decipherment; every new claim of decipherment will render all the decipherment claims equally suspect! Almost any language can be read into such a limited sample. Fuzzy logic may help by introducing some additional control variables... Regards, Kalyan ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sun Nov 8 01:57:46 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 20:57:46 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042444.23782.11111648275693203123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > > > > > > > As I said, there is pretty good evidence to link Etruscan (and > > therefore Lemnian) to IE, especially to Anatolian/Hittite, consistent > > with 7000 BC as an approximate date of separation. > > But I think most linguists do not see any relationship between Etruscan > and IE. If Etruscan was one of the pre-IE languages and if IE and AA were created as a long-term mixture then it would not be impossible. Some Etruscan words could have sneaked into Latin and are probably unrecognizable. But there are remarkable parallels between Turkic and Etruscan. I think that some people (possibly Africans, maybe Nilo-Saharans) might have been getting shoved around or were moving around in the Mediterranean region around the time of the formation of IE and AA, and the Etruscan and Turkic parallels are due to that. Of course, Etruscans melted into Romans and the ones in Asia melted into the mass of peoples there. But look at these remarkable and highly unlikely occurrences. 1. Etruscans were called Tursi/Tusci by Romans. Nobody knows where the name 'Turk' really comes from. 2. Etruscans called themselves Rasenna or Rashna. Asena or Ashina was the name of the Tribe/Clan that produced Royalty for Turks. (Nasili(Hittite) is likely a cognate of this word.) 3. The River Tiber was where the Etruscans had their iron mines. Turkish legends tell of their discovery of iron. The early 'Turks' were either a tribe specializing in iron-working or were iron-workers. Tibira is Sumerian for iron and 'temir' is Turkic for iron. (Some years ago, and this is very significant, there was a report that the Africans (east africans) had already been using the "Bessemer process" of creating high-grade steel centuries before it became known in the west after the Industrial Revolution. I might have read a report that iron might have been worked in East Africa very early, but I am not sure.) Elteber was a Turkic title. I suspect this should be read as Teber-el and referred to something like the local geophysicist who was in charge of iron-finding and iron-making. 4. Etruscan legends tell of being descended from a she-wolf. Turkic legends tell of being descended from a she-wolf. Herodotus tells of people in 'Scyhia' turning to wolves although he does not believe it. The werewolf story is today still an East-European myth. 5. The chroniclers report that the Turks had a custom of seizing the king and threatening to kill them, and forcing him to blurt out in fear how many years he will rule. The concept of divinity for the king is not there. The African tribes (Nuer? and others) had a similar custom of killing the king after his appointed time was up. Being king was not such a nice thing. BTW, 'er' apparently means "man", for example in "Nu-er". Other words like this can be found in Lahovary, and more on Africa can be found in Diop. 6. The Etruscan goddess of love/fertility was Turan. Turan is always associate with Turks, but people think Iranians named them. But if Troy is also from "tur" and Turan shows up in Etruria, and since "tuw" in Turkic has to do with 'giving birth, and begetting" and in fact "tuurghan' means (she that gives birth), and since 'tud' is also a root found in Sumerian having to do with birth and begetting, it is pointless to argue this incessant Iranianism. Obviously Iranians invented their myths (and Tur and Iraj and other sons) to explain the peoples of the area like the ME myths of Shem and Ham, etc. 7. Nobody knows what Tarchon was to the Etruscans but it figures prominently. The Tarkhan in Turkic history show up in the plural as Tarkhat (a notable non-Turkic plural formation) and they are leaders and kings. One also finds Tarkhunza in Anatolia. Who knows? 8. The few words of Etruscans like tul (stone),or qutu (vase), clan (son), ril (age) easily have Turkic cognates, and these cognates match Chuvash (the lone l~r Turkic language found only in the west). There is more, but this is time to quit and get back to some real work. PS. It is obvious that most IEanists never consider peoples other than IEans. Mostly that is because they do not know these languages. That is one of the disadvantages of specialization. This is why mailing lists where free flow of information is allowed is so good for everyone. I especially join such lists so I can get relevant info from the experts in their own fields. > Many people explain the spread of agriculture through demic diffusion > originating somewhere in Syro-Palestine or Mesopotamia. I'm sure if you > can put a language tag, but the thrust seems more toward peoples > like the Etruscans, Basques, Picts, etc. That is, people before IE > migrations. If you have known people who know several languages but were not good at any of them, you will note that they readily mix both lexemes and syntax from several languages as they see fit. People like this are usually formally illiterate. This is probably how complete new languages can be created over several short centuries if the conditions are right. > Well, the substratum could come from extinct languages that, unlike > Etruscan, were not literate. Or they were literate and have not left > traces that have been found. I don't think anyone would suggest that > Germanic and Slavic are "pure" languages free of any non-IE influence. > Certainly there are at least some Finno-Ugrian influences even in the > oldest examples of these languages. For some reason nobody I asked has been able to give any reason for this, which I discovered quite accidentally since my knowledge of Russian consists of about 100 words. kar?nca > sarancha kat > soid kaplak/kapak > sapokh k?r?k/k?rk > sorug k?pek/k?bek >sabaka There is probably more, but I don't know any Russian. We have the unusual /sar?k/ 'sheep' in Tatar which then is from /kar/ 'sheep' in Uralic. Many more parallels can be found with Dravidian in Lahovary. So all the proponents of "regular sound correspondence" should tell us what to make of this. Does this point to a very early contact between Turkic and Slavic speakers? What time would that be? Is that say, 2,000 BC? > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manasala -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From mcv at WXS.NL Sat Nov 7 21:08:04 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 21:08:04 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042426.23782.18241083011888820319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: >>But I do agree with Renfrew that there's a striking similarity >>between the expansion of Indo-European languages across Europe and >>the expansion of agriculture across the same area. > >But your theory is based on nothing else than this "striking similarity" >and attempting to deconstruct all the evidence assembled in favor of >what you call the "standard theory", and that includes the argument of >the lack of archeological signs of an invasion in northern Europe which >may be a problem for the usual theory -- btw certainly not as much as what >it is made out to be -- but certainly does not add any probability to your >own theory. If that is your impression, then I haven't been explaining myself. Demography is certainly a powerful model for language spread. It has been estimated that mesolithic hunter-gatherers numbered 1 in every 10 km2. Early Neolithic techniques allowed 5 persons per km2. A 5000% increase. That is hard to beat. But that is not the reason I'm dissatisfied with the "standard theory". Please note that I'm not trying to deconstruct anything. I do accept all the *evidence* assembled in favour of a Ponto-Caspian homeland. I do believe that during the Yama/Kurgan cultural phase (3500 BC-2500 BC), and maybe beginning slightly before that, Indo-European peoples spread out from there east and west and established themselves in the Hungarian plain / the Balkans and in Central Asia. There is good archaeological evidence for that, and it makes sense both linguistically (explaining the affinities between Greek and Sanskrit) and historically (Magyars, Turks, Huns etc. have done similarly in teh past). But I simply don't believe that this can be the whole story. There's the lack of archaeological evidence for "Kurgan" invasions anywhwere else in Europe. There's the lack of historical precedent: no nomad invasion from the steppe has ever penetrated into Europe much beyond Hungary. Attila was the most successful of all, but his empire was extremely short-lived and left no linguistic traces at all. And most importantly, the "Kurgan" hypothesis provides no insights into the linguistic subgrouping of Indo-European. More specifically, it fails to explain the position of Hittite (and the Anatolian lgs. in general). Even if all IE languages spread out from the Pontic-Caspian between 4000 and 3000 BC, in several different waves (and there's precious little evidence for that), and assuming of course that the Hittites were the first to leave, that only gives the rest of IE at most 1000 years or so to develop all the innovations that separate it from Anatolian. I say that's impossible. At least two millennia seems like a much more credible margin (my date of 5500 BC, coinciding with the split off of the Danubian/LBK-complex). The Hittite evidence is crucial. If I may point out the parallel with linguistics: ever since the discovery of Hittite and its recognition as an IE language (by Hrozny in 1915), Hittite has forced Indo-Europeanists to reconsider many of the basic assumptions underlying the traditional (basically Indo-Greek) view of IE, because many things in the Hittite grammar couldn't comfortably be derived from the traditional model. So why should this not affect the homeland question as well? The Ponto-Caspian steppe is indeed the homeland of "Indo-Greek" (Eastern IE), I do not doubt that. But Hittite cannot be derived from it. Some other points: >>It is easy to see how this came about: the Anatolian farmers, when they >>crossed over into Greece... > >Into Greece??? By a very wide agreement I believe pre-Greek language(s) of >Greece are considered non-IE as I'm sure you know. I'm really curious >what you do to be able to disregard that. As I said, there is pretty good evidence to link Etruscan (and therefore Lemnian) to IE, especially to Anatolian/Hittite, consistent with 7000 BC as an approximate date of separation. The linguistic vs. geographical terminology is a little confusing of course. In my map for, say, 4000 BC, the "Etruscoids" are in Greece and Anatolia, possibly also in the Balkans, the "Hittite/Anatolians" are in the Balkans or the Tripolye area (Romania/W.Ukraine), and the "Greeks" are in the Ukraine. It would be some time before everyone was in their proper place (3000 ~ 2500 BC or so for Hittite and Greek, 1200 BC for Etruscan). >I wonder also how you explain to >yourself the fact that agriculture spread also around the Mediterranean >coast from Turkey and Greece as far as Spain and then northwards to France >and Britain. Do you maintain that it was by speakers of IE? No, that is one of Renfrew's more silly theories. There is sufficient evidence in SW Europe for non-IE speakers, especially in Spain with Iberian, Tartessian? and Basque. Italy and France (apart from Basque-speaking Aquitania) are less clear (Etruscan being a recent arrival from the Aegean, not a pre-IE survival), but we have the Novilara stela from E.Italy in a non-IE, non-Etruscan language, and the toponymic evidence for non-Celtic elements in Ligurian. Which is another thing that is absent in the area from the Low Countries through Germany to Poland: traces of the pre-IE inhabitants. If the LBK/TRB (5500-3000 BC) people were not IE, we would expect to find something. >If not, why >do you feel you need IE for the expansion northwards thru the Balkans, >etc. but not in this other case? Completely different circumstances. The expansion of Neolithic techniques (pottery, sheeps and goats before wheat and barley) from Greece to Italy, S. France and Iberia (Painted and Cardial Ware and related cultures) was initially a purely littoral affair, spreading fairly rapidly along the Mediterranean coast to essentially sedentary coast-dwellers (crustacean and mollusk eaters, presumably). Few if any population movements were involved, and it was more a spread of ideas to people already pre-adapted to receiving them. The "wave of advance" model only works if there's lots of free space available for agriculture, and even then only if the geographical/ climatic conditions don't vary too much (see the 1000-year delay [6500-5500] when the Neolithic hit temperate Europe), and provided the local hunter/gatherers don't beat you to it by converting to agriculture themselves (see the other 1000-year delay [5300-4200] when LBK hit Denmark, where the locals (Ertebolle-Ellerbek culture, another group of mollusk and crustacean eaters) were numerically strong enough and had adopted a number of Neolithical techniques [not farming, though] to resist being integrated until the TRB phase). >For example 'jupiter', 'zeus pater' and 'dyauH pitaa' are just >coincidences? Or go back to the neolithic? Why not? All it means is "heavenly father" ("father-heaven", to be exact). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From thompson at JLC.NET Sun Nov 8 02:11:31 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 21:11:31 -0500 Subject: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042445.23782.752009708827984294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Fuzzy logic" may be a useful concept in some, if not all, possible worlds, but if you do not know the relevant languages that you are discussing, then it is not a matter of fuzzy logic. It is simply fuzziness, with no logic whatsoever. What is the probability of one's being right about *anything* having to do with Vedic or Avestan or Hittite, for example, if one does not know these languages? On this list, as opposed to others that Mark Hubey may be on, a preliminary prerequisite is a basic command of the relevant languages. That is my opinion, at least. Of course, I may be wrong. GT [who tries to be logical, as well] From thompson at JLC.NET Sun Nov 8 02:25:35 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 21:25:35 -0500 Subject: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042449.23782.16650166910155510768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >George Thompson wrote: >> >> On this list, as opposed to others that Mark Hubey may be on, a preliminary >> prerequisite is a basic command of the relevant languages. That is my >> opinion, at least. >> >> Of course, I may be wrong. > >Joseph Greenberg and the Nostratic theorists would probably say you are >wrong. I'm sure they have only the slightest knowledge of the thousands >of languages they compare (usually on the basis of words lists). > >Regards, >Paul Kekai Manansala I would be happy to see this discussion moved over to the Nostratic list, where it belongs, slightest knowledge and all. regards, GT From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Nov 7 22:47:25 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 98 23:47:25 +0100 Subject: On logic and fuzziness In-Reply-To: <36444EAF.218D8218@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042431.23782.12641722253305888373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:44 7.11.98 -0500, you wrote: >H.M.Hubey wrote: >> >> >> One of my teachers played this "joke" on us a long time ago. >> >> I have four bottles labeled A, B, C and X. >> >> I mix A & X and drink and get drunk. >> I mix A & Y and drink and get drunk. >> I mix A & Z and drink and get drunk. >> >> What can you say? >> >> Most people would say that X has alcohol. > >I mixed up my variables obviously. It should be X in all cases >not X,Y, Z. > >> >Best Regards, >Mark > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, but the logic of your teacher's "joke" kind of keeps escaping me - even with the new set of two variables - A and X. Which brings me to the question of logic as opposed to the way of thinking that you seem to believe is prevalent in some "fuzzy" disciplines (like historical linguistics). But first - a bit of personal reminiscing. During 1968/69 I had the opportunity to work as a documentalist at the neolithic site (VI-II M BC) in Bylany (Czech Republic). I still remember with what great caution syntheses were formulated, even if the specialists working there had at that time over 250 000 carefully documented (and statistically processed) objects at their disposal. The main problem - if I remember well - had to do with the difficulty in evaluating the possible impact of some important variables, like the natural horizontal and vertical movement of the archaeological strata. Scantier or more doubtful material would have allowed only weak, tentative hypotheses. With "fuzzy" stratigraphy (in historical linguistics - "fuzzy" etymology and "fuzzy" diachronical fonology/morphonology), the use of sophisticated statistical instruments isn't necessarily conducive to producing better quality theories. [Question: why cannot the Painted Grey Ware be dated more precisely?] But it certainly gives work to statisticians and probability theory specialists. What kind of result can one expect if one wants to analyze statistically a very limited set of words? Like the one posted by S. Kalyanaraman on Nov. 5 (where he says: <>). What is the minimum size of statistical series, below which there can be no talk of statistically meaningful results (since probabilities would just tend to dissolve in the thin air)? What happens if such a set contains material of uncertain quality (mistakes, borrowings, calques; S. Kalyanaraman's set has all these characteristics)? I do not think the reluctance with which historical linguists reach for mathematics-derived methods has anything to do with the "fuzziness" of their discipline, or lack in logic, or the unwilingness to let themselves tested against the presence of some <<"Aryan Racist Philosophy" of the 20th century>> virus. It's rather - it seems - a question of the very basic demands - testable quality and a proper size of series of objects (words) being the most important of them. Employing probability theory as neutral referee (<>) may be only warranted by the kind of material one has at hand. Certainly, it is available - but not always helpful. (Although - ultimately, it might help someone suddenly discover their ability to speak in prose...) There are times when one is clearly better off by sticking to good old s(t)olid procedures. Such procedures, however, since they are the product of pre-post-modernist modes of thought, do not permit everything to be connected with everything. Regards, Artur Karp, M.A. University of Warsaw Poland From ysyoung at GIASPN01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 8 00:57:58 1998 From: ysyoung at GIASPN01.VSNL.NET.IN (Shinyoung Yoo) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 06:27:58 +0530 Subject: quit mail Message-ID: <161227042440.23782.17621889786043004137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> quit the mail please. From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Nov 8 17:31:46 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 09:31:46 -0800 Subject: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042468.23782.5200167090006816850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > Nowhere in the present-day European scholarly literature you can > > find any traces of racial or ethnocentric prejudices (if you can - please > > tell us, we shall discuss it). > > I don't know specifically about European literature, since it is written > in a broad range of languages. > > However, just giving a few of the more extreme examples from the U.S. > try reading _The Bell Curve_ or the numerous works of Philippe Rushton. > Or even, on the lighter side, some of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s recent > writings where he lauds Western culture as superior to that of others. > > Just a second there! I understood that Vassilkov was referring to linguists/philologists! He certainly does not make that clear when he states "nowhere present-day European scholarly literature." >The Bell Curve was not produced by "us". It is a work with a totally >different professional background. And it has been massacred in several >places by people with a similar background. Trying to pinpoint bias in linguistics work is a bit more difficult, especially when this is done in a more subtle manner. Yet one can still find prima facie bias in various theories out there. The idea of what I call the "Mt. Ararat" origin of languages as postulated in various circles is one example. When linguistics mysteriously backs up easily refutable genetic and anthropological theories, one has to be very suspicious. Also, it is more an idea of Western outlook altogether. If there is a tendency in academia to see Western culture as superior and central, how can we trust any segment of it to be totally free of that bias? > Also, you might try investigating the eugenic roots of a great segment > of the modern anthropological and genetic community of today. As late > as the 1970s, many of today's top geneticists and anthropologists were > members of open eugenic societies. A great number are still members of > those societies, which have changed their names and operate now on a > cryptic level. > > As for the eugenic societies, such societies were certainly very popular in the period before the second world war, but were not specifically directed against people of other races (although such >people were certainly also targeted, as we know). Having done personal research into eugenics, I cannot agree. While some segments of the Europe did apply eugenics to inferior members of their own race, at the same time they looked as other races as being entirely inferior. In fact, racial intermixture was often seen as a cause for "bad genes" in the white race. The situation in the Northern European countries was also very much different than that in the rest of Europe which was decidely pro-natal when it came to Europeans. However, eugenics was seen as a viable solution for peoples of color. If you read eugenics literature closely, you will find that there is a strong bias toward racial genetic inferiority/superiority. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: base64 From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sun Nov 8 10:25:19 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 11:25:19 +0100 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <3643DC30.3E3DA94C@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042458.23782.6220363322268132461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mark, You wrote (Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:35:44 -0500): >Doesn't this sound a little like ... But, few time before (Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:45:21 -0500): >I am a computer scientist and engineer. Hence, I'm able to suppose you have some knowledge of combinatories and statistics: - assuming that for each word there is a score of synonymous or quasi-synonymous (lying in the same semantic field) and twice many metaphores. - assuming that for each "sound" there is an half-dozen of "little like" sounds. You're surely able to compute how many "good" correspondances could be found between any two languages: incredible! With such methods and a touch of imagination, fabulous historical conclusions can be obtained: < Ancient dwellers of England were highly attracted by Roman girls and made < currently razzias to obtain them. That's proved by "woman < romana" and < "girl < clara" (fair complexion). In the same way, you have good forebears: A counsellor of Hitler (better to forget his name) gave him a good reason to invade England: they were all Jewish, as proved by "Saxon < Isaac-son". There is no doubt that "Turcs in Etruria" is in the same vein. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Nov 8 20:43:00 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 12:43:00 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042472.23782.7162887499866082921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > Could you be more specific here? What is the Mt. Ararat origin, where is it described? Furthermore, which easily refutable genetic and anthropological theories are mysteriously backed up by linguistics? > Well at the risk of annoying Miguel and others, the Nostratic theory and Greenberg's new theories (which demolish his old classification). The theories of demic diffusion reach their extreme in the example of the Kennewick Man controversy. A lot of this is just old "Aryan" diffusionist theory in new packaging. > Also, it is more an idea of Western outlook altogether. If there is a > tendency in academia to see Western culture as superior and central, how > can we trust any segment of it to be totally free of that bias? > > The idea of Western superiority in academic matters seems to be shared by other peoples than Westerners. > I'm referring to cultural superiority, although I'm don't think I agree with your analysis of Western academic standards. Either way, that would not excuse bias in scholarship. Try reading Schlesinger's _The Disuniting of America_, which claims that Eurocentrism is not so bad after all since the superiority of Western value systems if manifest. > If you read eugenics literature closely, you will find that there is a > strong bias toward racial genetic inferiority/superiority. > > Again, could you please supply us with the most central book titles? > Try G.K. Chesterton's _Eugenics and Other Evils_. Barry Mehler is an active writer on eugenics at the present. The very existence of terms like "racial hygiene" and "race betterment" in eugenics literature illustrates the importance of race. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 8 20:53:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 12:53:52 -0800 Subject: Tirukkural Message-ID: <161227042474.23782.5332955550083712520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H. M. Hubey wrote: > What is Tirukkural? Thanks for giving me the opportunity to introduce TirukkuRaL (ca. 4th-5th century A.D.). It has been dear to Tamils ever since its creation called as Tamil Veda. TirukkuRaL means Sacred Couplets. It is very secular in its outlook. In its third section on "pleasure", it is most poetic. The reason is that Sangam classical love poetry traditions are still strong here. Leo Tolstoy writes about Kural in his 'Letter to the Hindus'. "The maxims of Valluvar has touched my soul" - Mahatma Gandhi "With sure strokes, the Kural draws the idea of simple ethical humanity. There hardly exists in literature of the world, a collection of maxims in which we find so much wisdom" - Albert Schweitzer "Kural has entered into the very soul of a whole people. It proclaims in sweetest mystic couplets virtue, truth, wealth and joy" - G. U. Pope >?From 17th century translation into Latin, numerous attempts exist. For example, 1) P. S. Sundaram, The Kural, Penguin, 1990 For an authentic translation: 2) K. R. Srinivasa Iyengar, The Kural: lights of the righteous life, M. P. Birla foundation, 1988 Aiyangar writes: "The Kural is like no other book that India has produced in any of her languages. It is a gloriously life-affirming document. Valluvar openly says that there is no good life possible without material prosperity, and proserity is no use if it is not used well. Secular in his conception, like Confucius, not bothered about gods, with his eye on righteous human conduct, full of compassion and love for humankind, Tiruvalluvar, the author, has produced in his Tirukkural, a small masterpiece of pragmatic righteousness. Some of the kurals are interpretable in more ways than one. Most say the things they want to say in a direct manner, in a way that cannot be mistaken. The words fall like hammer strokes drving a nail into hardwood or stone. There are many persons who know the Kural by heart but few manage to live by the Kural, thereby defeating the very purpose for which it is written. It is a wise book, this Tirukkural of the Tamils, with a sagacity at once useful and practicable. Tiruvalluvar never lets you down - is the experience of all who read him." Regards, N. Ganesan Aside: Regarding Indian and Mediterranian cultural mileau, I am interested in learning about the Science News and Science article. Bull-baiting was famous in Mycenean art, Indus seals, and Tamil sangam poetry. Indus valley was a bronze age civilization. As far as bronzes go in India, the Chola masterpieces are justly famous. "The Tamils left brilliant legacies in poetry, painting and sculpture. But their finest creations were in bronze. Among their masterpieces is the image os Siva, cast in one piece in 1011 A.D., full four hundred years before Donatello in Florence. There had been nothing like it since the ancient Greeks." - Michael Grant, World civilizations, 1991. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Nov 8 12:55:27 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 12:55:27 +0000 Subject: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042461.23782.5240220741479746989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > Nowhere in the present-day European scholarly literature you can > find any traces of racial or ethnocentric prejudices (if you can - please > tell us, we shall discuss it). I don't know specifically about European literature, since it is written in a broad range of languages. However, just giving a few of the more extreme examples from the U.S. try reading _The Bell Curve_ or the numerous works of Philippe Rushton. Or even, on the lighter side, some of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s recent writings where he lauds Western culture as superior to that of others. Just a second there! I understood that Vassilkov was referring to linguists/philologists! The Bell Curve was not produced by "us". It is a work with a totally different professional background. And it has been massacred in several places by people with a similar background. Also, you might try investigating the eugenic roots of a great segment of the modern anthropological and genetic community of today. As late as the 1970s, many of today's top geneticists and anthropologists were members of open eugenic societies. A great number are still members of those societies, which have changed their names and operate now on a cryptic level. As for the eugenic societies, such societies were certainly very popular in the period before the second world war, but were not specifically directed against people of other races (although such people were certainly also targeted, as we know). Eugenics were popular in Scandinavian social democracies as well, and used as an excuse to weed out social "misfits" of various kinds. The governments wanted a "healthy stock". I assume that it is in the latter sense that eugenics are still alive. The abortion on demand policies of the Nordic social democracies have shown themselves to have a kind of "automatic" eugenic effect, because some couples have abortions when their child proves to have some kind of physical or mental deficiency, a fact which has caused consternation in pro-abortion circles. It is interesting that the Danish government once calculated the reduction of social costs given an abortion-on-demand policy. They found that such a policy would benefit the state by reducing the social budgets. Consequently, Denmark got abortion on demand, but with a less commercial motivation - "pro choice". Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3000 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Nov 8 12:59:21 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 12:59:21 +0000 Subject: SV: diabetes, epilepsy, hedgehogs Message-ID: <161227042463.23782.16800401201150435507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Baltuch wrote: (Btw, is the study of Gypsies considered to be part of Indology?) I would assume so. Here in Oslo, studies on Gypsy and Tater language (Taters being descendants of a Gypsy tribe that arrived in Scandinavia in the 16th century) have been conducted by Knut Kristiansen, who is a scholar of modern NIA languages. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1609 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Nov 8 13:24:08 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 13:24:08 +0000 Subject: SV: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042465.23782.18310070182225704066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: I do not think the reluctance with which historical linguists reach for mathematics-derived methods has anything to do with the "fuzziness" of their discipline, or lack in logic, or the unwilingness to let themselves tested against the presence of some <<"Aryan Racist Philosophy" of the 20th century>> virus. It's rather - it seems - a question of the very basic demands - testable quality and a proper size of series of objects (words) being the most important of them. Employing probability theory as neutral referee (<>) may be only warranted by the kind of material one has at hand. Certainly, it is available - but not always helpful. (Although - ultimately, it might help someone suddenly discover their ability to speak in prose...) There are times when one is clearly better off by sticking to good old s(t)olid procedures. Having written a thesis with a solid dose of statistics, I would like to second what Artur Karp is saying here. I often find that scientists/engineers have the attitude that what we do is "unscientific" because we don't use mathematics. This criticism is sometime relevant in cases where linguists / philologists actually give arguments made on the basis of numerical calculations. In my thesis, I have given an account of such attempts in Indology. However, today there is a special branch of linguistics/philology where advanced statistical methods are applied to numerical problems, so that the criticism is much less relevant than it would have been 30-40 years ago. I would like to remind the engineers/scientists among us that linguists and philologists do not operate in a field where they have the good fortune of dealing with natural laws. Apart from sound laws, which are fairly consistent, everything we deal with is fundamentally chaotic. When we interpret the past, we are really into a kind of pattern recognition process where we often have to make interpretations on the basis of incomplete data sets. Historical processes may work according to statistical principles, but not in the way that dice throwing does. Historical trends can only be established on the basis of a large number of observed cases, which leaves us with a classificatory problem: how do we classify an historical event of some kind in such a manner that we can make a consistent and realistic statistical analysis of it? Here, philology and linguistics come back to bite the statistician in the tail. Countables have to be defined, and such definitions have to be made on philological and linguistic criteria. My assumption is that what goes for linguistics and philology also goes for archaeology (as testified by Karp) and other disciplines that have a certain "fuzziness". Consequently, all theories and explanations have to be based on available data sets, which have to be documented. To produce correct interpretations, you need complete data sets, but since data sets are rarely complete, you end up with situations where you get several competing interpretations, because incomplete data sets allow this, just like equations with more than one unknown factor allow for two or more solutions. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3378 bytes Desc: not available URL: From as at AS3442.SPB.EDU Sun Nov 8 10:31:06 1998 From: as at AS3442.SPB.EDU (Alexandre Sotov) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 13:31:06 +0300 Subject: new member Message-ID: <161227042457.23782.16984447879677532450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: INDOLOGY list members My name is Alexandre Sotov; I am a student of St Petersburg State University, Indo-Arian Dpt. I am glad to join the Indology mailing list. Since a lack of study materials on Indology is experienced in St Petersburg I thought of this list to be a help and a kind of compensation of what I could miss here ;-) And btw have anyone seen something on Hindi and/or Sanskrit laying around in the net? --- Alexandre Sotov mailto: as at AS3442.spb.edu Sun, 08 Nov 98 13:06 +0300 MSK From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 8 09:09:34 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 14:09:34 +0500 Subject: Kusunda et al. Message-ID: <161227042455.23782.13794627778695800924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Incidentally, I am on the Nostratic list also, although I do not participate in much of their discussion. I sent my reply to Indology thinking that the thread originated there! Bh.K. At 18:13 07/11/98 +0100, you wrote: >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > >>Oops, I hadn't noticed the switch in mailing lists... >>For puzzled Indology members, I should explain that this was a >>discussion on the Nostratic list about Kusunda, > >Yes, how on earth did that thread jump from Nostratic to Indology? > >>In that context, Jacob had mentioned Elfenbein about >>Brahui, and had subsequently consulted prof. Krishnamurti. My >>response had gone to the Nostratic list, and I thoughtlessly failed >>to add prof. Krishnamurti to the recipient list, for which I >>apologise. > >Yes I was in the same situation. There was no good way to involve >prof. Krishnamurti in the discussion since he does not read the >Nostratic list and I think mixing lists and personal email addresses >in messages can only result in confusion, so I simply gave his email >in my message and relied on the fact that readers interested in his >argument could contact him directly if they wished. > >>>Who said there are no IA loans in Brahui? Wrong! >> >>Not me. > >Grin. It was me, but it was from B.Sergent's account of J.E.'s >paper. Please please do not rely on that to judge it. The reference >is: Joseph Elfenbeim, "A periplus of the Brahui problem", Studia >Iranica, 16.2 (1987), 215-233 > > ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 Telephone:40-7019665 From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Nov 9 00:29:58 1998 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 16:29:58 -0800 Subject: Audio RV Message-ID: <161227042479.23782.6342808690506611455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd appreciate your advice on how to get the Rg Veda, or parts thereof, on CD or audio cassettes. Thanks. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 9 01:06:08 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 17:06:08 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042478.23782.17210707972798672843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >Well at the risk of annoying Miguel and others, the Nostratic theory > >and Greenberg's new theories (which demolish his old classification). > > Which one? Greenberg has classified the languages of Africa (1950, > 1954, 1963), New Guinea (1971) and the Americas (1987). His > forthcoming book (announced, but not yet published) will attempt to > classify the languages of Eurasia. > Greenberg broke apart many of the old genetic language classifications that existed before while sparing sacred Indo-European. However, recently he is realizing that these languages are indeed genetically related under the banner of Caucasoids marching out of somewhere in Anatolia (Mt. Ararat?). Thus, Uralic and Altaic, which were formerly not related according to him, are now in fact related again! All of this relates to the idea of Caucasoid volksmarch from the Near East reaching even to the Western hemisphere (Kennewick Man). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 9 02:14:29 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 18:14:29 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042491.23782.13681353585818222237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >Greenberg broke apart many of the old genetic language classifications > >that existed before while sparing sacred Indo-European. > > Such as? The only language groups Greenberg ever broke up, in his > work on African languages, were the then current "Negro" and > "Hamitic" ones, precisely because these were not based on any kind of > linguistic relationships at all, but merely on racial criteria. There was never any such racial criteria for the older classification of languages. In fact, it was more racially neutral than the current classification. For example, Cushitic languages were grouped together with Semitic ones. Now they are separated. > > >However, recently he is realizing that these languages are indeed > >genetically related under the banner of Caucasoids marching out of > >somewhere in Anatolia (Mt. Ararat?). Thus, Uralic and Altaic, which > >were formerly not related according to him, > > Greenberg saying two language groups are unrelated? Reference! > Well, let's just say that the current language classification in vogue is that accepted by Greenberg. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Nov 8 19:16:15 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 19:16:15 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042470.23782.12780245257847660699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: Trying to pinpoint bias in linguistics work is a bit more difficult, especially when this is done in a more subtle manner. Yet one can still find prima facie bias in various theories out there. The idea of what I call the "Mt. Ararat" origin of languages as postulated in various circles is one example. When linguistics mysteriously backs up easily refutable genetic and anthropological theories, one has to be very suspicious. Could you be more specific here? What is the Mt. Ararat origin, where is it described? Furthermore, which easily refutable genetic and anthropological theories are mysteriously backed up by linguistics? Also, it is more an idea of Western outlook altogether. If there is a tendency in academia to see Western culture as superior and central, how can we trust any segment of it to be totally free of that bias? The idea of Western superiority in academic matters seems to be shared by other peoples than Westerners. Natural science was largely invented in the West, but has since got a following outside the West, so that it is now shared by Westerners and non-Westerners alike. For about 450 years, Europe, and later the US, functioned as an intellectual hothouse where new important ideas were developed. In modern times, Asians and Africans have made efforts to acquire this knowledge and use it to their own advantage, since Western knowledge obviously made it possible for them to conquer a very large part of the world, although for a short period, historically speaking. If you look at history, there are several such intellectual hothouses, both in Asia and in the West. But the last hothouse happened to be Western. Looking at Japan, we may perhaps assume that the hothouse is moving away from the West once more. If you read eugenics literature closely, you will find that there is a strong bias toward racial genetic inferiority/superiority. Again, could you please supply us with the most central book titles? My impression - which may be wrong, of course - was that eugenics and racist theories were more or less completely ousted from respectable academic circles after the Nazi experience. I do not count the political lunatic fringe, but would like to see references to academics with a footing in mainstream Western universities. (The Bell Curve has already been mentioned, and was, as I already said, not received with applause). Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2976 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Mon Nov 9 01:07:13 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 20:07:13 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042486.23782.8469833762140032164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > > H.M.Hubey wrote: > >That is also false. Romans called the Etruscans Tusci/Tursi. Turan was > >a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ is the root for > >birth and begetting in Turkic. > > Just a remark. The few we know about the Goddess Turan shows that > She is the Etruscan equivalent of the Latin Venus and the Greek Aphrodite > and nothing else. Hence, surely not a "fertility Goddess"! Assuming a link > between Turan and "birth and begetting" shows the same flimsiness than, > phonetically, between 'tur' and 'tuw'. I think that this old Kurd I talked to circa 1971 who said sex was the "entertainment for poor people" knew more about sex and love than you did :-) Nobody else except people with full stomachs usually in 20th century or royalty in earlier times could actually make a big deal of "love" as opposed to sex. IT is usually a euphemism, and poor and hungry people don't care if they screw sheep, and love is far from their minds. > Best regards, > Dominique > > PS: The confusion between love and fertility is probably a common idea in > some monotheistic religions, but Greeks and Romans made a clear difference > between the both ;-) > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Mon Nov 9 01:11:56 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 20:11:56 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042487.23782.18268987395956810945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > > Dear Mark, > You wrote (Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:35:44 -0500): > >Doesn't this sound a little like ... > But, few time before (Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:45:21 -0500): > >I am a computer scientist and engineer. > Hence, I'm able to suppose you have some knowledge of combinatories > and statistics: > - assuming that for each word there is a score of synonymous or > quasi-synonymous (lying in the same semantic field) and twice many > metaphores. > - assuming that for each "sound" there is an half-dozen of "little > like" sounds. > You're surely able to compute how many "good" correspondances could > be found between any two languages: incredible! PIck up my paper on the topic on my web site. That is for exact matches. With a semantic shift of N, and a phonetic similarity/shift of M, the average number is N*M times the calculations shown in my paper and my book. Since the average is 1. The average, providing "leeways", is simply about multiplying this number by some constant. One way is N*M as I showed above. I am sure that everyone can do multiplication, even you. > With such methods and a touch of imagination, fabulous historical > conclusions can be obtained: > < Ancient dwellers of England were highly attracted by Roman girls and made > < currently razzias to obtain them. That's proved by "woman < romana" and > < "girl < clara" (fair complexion). Maybe this could be obtained by people whose capabilities are about as high as yours, but certainly not by me :-) I know more about probability theory than sophomore level combinations and permutations. > In the same way, you have good forebears: A counsellor of Hitler > (better to forget his name) gave him a good reason to invade England: they > were all Jewish, as proved by "Saxon < Isaac-son". > There is no doubt that "Turcs in Etruria" is in the same vein. > Regards, > Dominique Little bit more sarcasm, even if only to prove that you are upset about something quite serious. > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Mon Nov 9 01:20:14 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 20:20:14 -0500 Subject: SV: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042489.23782.13525636089262058367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Having written a thesis with a solid dose of statistics, I would like to second what Artur Karp is >saying here. I often find that scientists/engineers have the attitude that what we do is >"unscientific" because we don't use mathematics. This criticism is sometime relevant in cases where >linguists / philologists actually give arguments made on the basis of numerical calculations. In my >thesis, I have given an account of such attempts in Indology. However, today there is a special >branch of linguistics/philology where advanced statistical methods are applied to numerical problems, >so that the criticism is much less relevant than it would have been 30-40 years ago. It may be true that (some) scientists/engineers do whatever it is you claim they do. However, my recommendations are a lot simpler (at least for a start). I am simply asking for a standardization of semantic distance. And that necessitates the use of the concept of distance. Nobody can go far without it. Once the concept of distance becomes embedded in linguistics many problems will solve themselves. > > I would like to remind the engineers/scientists among us that linguists and philologists do not >operate in a field where they have the good fortune of dealing with natural laws. The more difficult a problem is the more powerful the tools must be. >Apart from sound laws, which are fairly consistent, everything we deal with is fundamentally chaotic. >When we interpret the past, we are really into a kind of pattern recognition process where we often >have to make interpretations on the basis of incomplete data sets. Historical processes may work >according to statistical principles, but not in the way that dice throwing does. Historical trends >can only be established on the basis of a large number of observed cases, which leaves us with a >classificatory problem: how do we classify an historical event of some kind in such a manner that we >can make a consistent and realistic statistical analysis of it? Here, philology and linguistics come >back to bite the statistician in the tail. Countables have to be defined, and such definitions have >to be made on philological and linguistic criteria. The more complex the problem is, the more powerful the tools must be. Linguistics has been blessed with lots of measurable things so it is in much better shape than say, psychology or even parts of sociology. If math is good enough for them, for physicists, engineers and everyone else, it is good enough for linguists. It's irrational to deny it or claim the opposite. The worst that can happen is that at least some of the more farfetched claims and ridiculous and fuzzy methodologies will be clearly seen for what they are. Understanding is the key to a solution. First analysis, then synthesis. > My assumption is that what goes for linguistics and philology also goes for archaeology (as >testified by Karp) and other disciplines that have a certain "fuzziness". Consequently, all theories >and explanations have to be based on available data sets, which have to be documented. To produce >correct interpretations, you need complete data sets, but since data sets are rarely complete, you >end up with situations where you get several competing interpretations, because incomplete data sets >allow this, just like equations with more than one unknown factor allow for two or more solutions. One does not need complete sets. Economists are faced with this problem and have devised ways to get around it. > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Phone: 22 32 12 19 > Fax: 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: base64 -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Mon Nov 9 02:46:06 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 20:46:06 -0600 Subject: Audio RV Message-ID: <161227042493.23782.11641991719877746239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know of several items available. Could you say more about what you are looking for?? Do you want the whole thing?? Do you want it slow and divided up so it can be learned?? Do you want single pandit or multiple pandits?? Are you interested in computer software version for easy repetition?? Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu -----Original Message----- From: B. Reusch To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 6:26 PM Subject: Audio RV >I'd appreciate your advice on how to get the Rg Veda, or parts thereof, on >CD or audio cassettes. >Thanks. >Beatrice Reusch >University of California, Berkeley > From mcv at WXS.NL Sun Nov 8 21:50:37 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 98 21:50:37 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <36460254.23238706@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042476.23782.17475301824506420743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Well at the risk of annoying Miguel and others, the Nostratic theory >and Greenberg's new theories (which demolish his old classification). Which one? Greenberg has classified the languages of Africa (1950, 1954, 1963), New Guinea (1971) and the Americas (1987). His forthcoming book (announced, but not yet published) will attempt to classify the languages of Eurasia. The Nostratic theory (a term invented in 1903 by the Danish linguist Holger Pedersen), was developed by the Russian linguist V.M. Illich-Svitych in the 1960's, and claims that Afro-Asiatic, Kartvelian, Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic and Dravidian languages are ultimately related. This is based on systematic sound correspondences between the reconstructed proto-languages. The Nostratic theory is far from generally accepted, and much further work needs to be done (not easy, given the number of languages involved), but interest in it is steadily growing as more information becomes available (Illich-Svitych's work has never been translated from the original Russian). Given its scientific basis, the Nostratic theory is testable in principle, and we are now finally beginning to see critiques of Nostratic by people who have actually studied the evidence. The following fragment from Illich-Svitych's etymological dictionary of Nostratic ("Opyt sravnenija nostraticheskix jazykov", Moscow 1971) may serve as an example of what the Nostratic theory is actually about. I can assure you that the rest of the book (245 etymologies) is similar. Neither Mt. Ararat, Kennewick Man nor Adolf Hitler are mentioned. PN *bari "to take": AA *br- "to seize, to catch" ~ IE *bher- "to take, to bring, to carry" ~ ? Drav. *per_- "to choose, to collect" ~ Alt. *bari- "to take in the hand". AA || Semit.: Akk. (Babyl.) (praet. <-ba:r>) "to catch (fish)", "fisherman"; probably a secondary extension of original *br, cf. Mehri, Shahri (< *t-br) "to angle for fish" (it is likely that <3> is secondary in Soqotri "to angle"; cf. Leslau JAOS 82,2) || Berber: Tuareg (praet. <-uber>) "to take a handfull"; -b- < *-bb- < *w-b-, cf. without prefixal *w, which conditioned the doubling and retention of -b-, Tuareg (h < *-b- with weakening as in the cases described by Beguinot RANL 33, 186-100) "possession, goods, cattle" || Cush, *brj; Beja "to get, collect, to have, possess"; Saho (Irob, see Plaikowski-Wagner ZDMG 103, 198) "to seize, hold", Afar (Tajurax, see Lucas JSAfr 5, 198) "to carry away" || Chad.: Ngala (Kotoko group) "to seize" || Cf. Roessler Oriens 17, 215 IE || OI , Av. "carries"; OI "winnings" || Arm. "I carry, bring" || Phryg. "brings" || Grk. "I carry" (Myc. 3sg. praes. , see Morpurgo 240) || Alb. (< *bhero:, cf. imper. ) "I bring, carry" || Lat. Osc. "to carry" || OIr. "I carry" || Goth. "to carry, to bring" || OCS (inf. "I take" || Toch. AB "to bring, carry" || Cf. Pok. 128-132 (In Pok. formations are considered from an originally different root, with the meaning "to be born, offspring", see #32). In the light of external comparisons it is seen that the meaning "to take" in Slavic, usually considered an innovation, must be ancient. From this meaning developed the semantics that are more widely represented in IE: "to bring" --> "to carry". ? Drav. "to choose, collect" || S.Drav. *per_ukk-: Tamil, Malayal. , Toda , Kodagu || Telugu , || C.Drav.: Kolamo , Naiki , Parji , Gadaba (Salur) , Gondi (Adilabad) , Konda , Kui (< *peg-b-) || Kurux || See DED 293. Alt || Tur. *bary-: OTur., OUigh. "possession"; Azer. (Gazax) "to make use of, to receive advantage"; OTur. (TS 2, 104) "to earn a living", Turkish (Edirne) "to care for, protect"; Cf. Hung. , OHung. "cattle" (<-- "possessions"), borrowed from OBulg. (Gombocz BTL 40-41) || Mong. "to take with the hands, to seize" (and further "to offer s.o. s.t."): MMong. , Kalmyk , Moghol ; see Poppe Mong. 26, Zirni 89 || Cf. Ramstedt KW 38 (where, as in Ram. 56, a connection of the Mong. words is also suggested with Tur. *barNak "finger"). In Turk., the semantic development was "to take" --> "to get (possessions)" <> Cf. Ramstedt JSFOu 53(1), 23, Dolg. 12 (IE ~ Alt). The basic meaning "to take" is maintained in Alt., Drav. and partially IE. In Drav., *a > e umlaut apparently took place under influence of a front vowel in the second syllable in the position before (as with Drav. *e:r_- "to rise" < *Hora", #116). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Mon Nov 9 00:32:20 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 00:32:20 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <36464000.4A8FFE92@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042482.23782.6620374867883281412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Greenberg broke apart many of the old genetic language classifications >that existed before while sparing sacred Indo-European. Such as? The only language groups Greenberg ever broke up, in his work on African languages, were the then current "Negro" and "Hamitic" ones, precisely because these were not based on any kind of linguistic relationships at all, but merely on racial criteria. >However, recently he is realizing that these languages are indeed >genetically related under the banner of Caucasoids marching out of >somewhere in Anatolia (Mt. Ararat?). Thus, Uralic and Altaic, which >were formerly not related according to him, Greenberg saying two language groups are unrelated? Reference! ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Nov 9 00:55:22 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 00:55:22 +0000 Subject: Pointer to CFV: soc.history.early-modern (fwd) Message-ID: <161227042484.23782.15343117893039189691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 17:16:45 -0600 From: Curt Emanuel Subject: Pointer to CFV: soc.history.early-modern ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Call For Votes (CFV) for the proposed Usenet group soc.history.early-modern has been issued. If you are interested in the creation of this group then please read the CFV and cast a vote, for or against the proposed group, as you prefer. The CFV has been posted to the Usenet group news.announce.newgroups and crossposted to: news.groups, humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare, rec.music.early, soc.history, soc.history.medieval, soc.history.war.us-revolution, and soc.history.moderated. If you would like to vote, then please access the CFV through one of these newsgroups. It is NOT recommended that you vote from an archiving service such as Dejanews - the formatting often results in a ballot being invalidated. Please remember that: - It is a violation of the rules to try to influence the vote by campaigning either for or against the proposal - It is a violation to forward copies of the CFV to others. Only an original ballot sent by the votetaker will be considered valid. If you wish to inform others of the vote, please send them a pointer to the CFV, not the CFV itself. Voting will conclude on November 23, 1998. Thank you. -- Curt Emanuel (cemanuel at accs.net) proponent soc.history.early-modern From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Mon Nov 9 16:39:31 1998 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 08:39:31 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <3643B758.4729DE27@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042503.23782.18223903492442804263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > Wait a minute, Manu commands pouring molten lead into the ears of Sudras > who dared listen to the Vedas! If I recall, such a pronouncement is not found in the manu-smRti but in the gautama dharma-SAstra. Mani From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 9 09:30:16 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 09:30:16 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042497.23782.10718594631489094361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Having written a thesis with a solid dose of statistics, I would like to second what Artur Karp is >saying here. I often find that scientists/engineers have the attitude that what we do is >"unscientific" because we don't use mathematics. This criticism is sometime relevant in cases where >linguists / philologists actually give arguments made on the basis of numerical calculations. In my >thesis, I have given an account of such attempts in Indology. However, today there is a special >branch of linguistics/philology where advanced statistical methods are applied to numerical problems, >so that the criticism is much less relevant than it would have been 30-40 years ago. H.M.Hubey wrote: It may be true that (some) scientists/engineers do whatever it is you claim they do. However, my recommendations are a lot simpler (at least for a start). I am simply asking for a standardization of semantic distance. LMF: First of all: I was not referring specifically to linguistics or semantics, although these disciplines are certainly affected by the general problems I try to describe. Now a "standardization of semantic distance" sounds interesting. Could you be more specific here? Are you thinking of the amount of semantic "material" that is common to certain languages (such as: A and B speakers understand 20% of each other's language), or are you talking about the development of a certain root or stem? And that necessitates the use of the concept of distance. Nobody can go far without it. Once the concept of distance becomes embedded in linguistics many problems will solve themselves. LMF: I wish it were that easy. You really owe us a precise definition of such a distance. > > I would like to remind the engineers/scientists among us that linguists and philologists do not >operate in a field where they have the good fortune of dealing with natural laws. The more difficult a problem is the more powerful the tools must be. LMF: I couldn't agree more. I think we would all like to adopt that sentence as our morning mantra. It is just finding those tools, and find a way to calibrate them. You see, it is so terribly difficult to experiment with the past. (Not counting Thor Heyerdahl, who has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that people in the old days could sail anywhere in a shoebox). >Apart from sound laws, which are fairly consistent, everything we deal with is fundamentally chaotic. >When we interpret the past, we are really into a kind of pattern recognition process where we often >have to make interpretations on the basis of incomplete data sets. Historical processes may work >according to statistical principles, but not in the way that dice throwing does. Historical trends >can only be established on the basis of a large number of observed cases, which leaves us with a >classificatory problem: how do we classify an historical event of some kind in such a manner that we >can make a consistent and realistic statistical analysis of it? Here, philology and linguistics come >back to bite the statistician in the tail. Countables have to be defined, and such definitions have >to be made on philological and linguistic criteria. Linguistics has been blessed with lots of measurable things so it is in much better shape than say, psychology or even parts of sociology. If math is good enough for them, for physicists, engineers and everyone else, it is good enough for linguists. It's irrational to deny it or claim the opposite. LMF: I couldn't agree more. But as I said, there is a busy little group of linguists just wallowing in computers and statistics, analysing Shakespearean drama by means of clustering techniques and what not. The fact is: Some problems in linguistics and philology are numerical problems, and in the past, philologists have not unfrequently made themselves look silly when handling such problems. However, not ALL problems are numerical, and not EVERYTHING can be quantified. And statistics or maths will not always produce interesting answers to the really interesting questions. LMF: Some questions have to be dealt with by other means, and then we are back to our data sets. The worst that can happen is that at least some of the more farfetched claims and ridiculous and fuzzy methodologies will be clearly seen for what they are. LMF: Again, could you please be more specific? What would you call ridiculous and fuzzy methodologies? Understanding is the key to a solution. LMF: Isn't it always? First analysis, then synthesis. LMF: Isn't that what we are doing? > My assumption is that what goes for linguistics and philology also goes for archaeology (as >testified by Karp) and other disciplines that have a certain "fuzziness". Consequently, all theories >and explanations have to be based on available data sets, which have to be documented. To produce >correct interpretations, you need complete data sets, but since data sets are rarely complete, you >end up with situations where you get several competing interpretations, because incomplete data sets >allow this, just like equations with more than one unknown factor allow for two or more solutions. One does not need complete sets. Economists are faced with this problem and have devised ways to get around it. LMF: This is an interesting remark. I always thought that linguists/philologists should "read around" in other fields of knowledge to see if they could pick up new ideas to experiment with. My own assumption regarding data sets is that there is a kind of critical limit: When you are past that limit, the data set is basically clear and unambiguous, even it is not entirely complete. (it is like an ordinary puzzle: when you have assembled most of the puzzle, you understand what the motive is, even if you haven't got all the details). Unfortunately, very often we are not even close to that critical limit. If you could offer us a practical remedy, most of us would probably be quite happy. Regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no ---------- Fra: H.M.Hubey[SMTP:hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU] Svar til: Indology Sendt: 09. november 1998 02:20 Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Emne: Re: SV: On logic and fuzziness <> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5074 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mcv at WXS.NL Mon Nov 9 10:14:14 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 10:14:14 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <36465005.D9C382CF@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042499.23782.10197408637289204825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >There was never any such racial criteria for the older classification of >languages. In fact, it was more racially neutral than the current >classification. For example, Cushitic languages were grouped together >with Semitic ones. Now they are separated. They're not. You've got it backwards. Let's see how "racially neutral" pre-Greenberg classifications of African languages were, and how "racist" Greenberg's is. Starting point for the history of African language classification are the two obvious and long recognized language families of the continent: Semitic (which besides Arabic, now widely spoken in Northern Africa, includes the Ethiopic languages [Ge'ez, Amharic, Tigrinya, etc.]) and Bantu (the group where most languages from Central, Eastern and Southern Africa belong). Beyond these obvious families, linguists studying the African languages soon came to realize that some of the other 900 ~ 1000 languages spoken in the continent showed affinities with either Bantu or Semitic. The first attempt at a full classification was that of the German Egyptologist Lepsius. He divided the African languages into three groups (1880): 1. Semitic 2. Hamitic (Egyptian, Berber-Hausa, Cushitic, Nama [Hottentot]) 3. Bantu-Negro Note that the "Hamitic" group consists of those languages which show "Semitoid" characteristics (such as noun gender), but they are not included within the same group as Semitic. On the other hand, the "Negro" subgroup, classified with Bantu, consists of languages with "Bantoid" characteristics, plus all other languages spoken by black-skinned peoples (except such as already included in Hamitic). A different classification was arrived at by an Austrian scholar, Friedrich Mueller. Using mainly hair types [sic] as a criterion, he arrived at the following classification: 1. Semitic 2. Hamitic (Egyptian, Berber, Cushitic) 3. Nuba-Fula-Maasai 4. Khoisan (Nama, San) 5. Negro 6. Bantu But the most influential classification before Greenberg's was undoubtedly that of Meinhof, as published in his "Die Sprachen der Hamiten" (1912). Meinhof divided African languages in three groups: 1. Hamito-Semitic: a. Semitic b. Hamitic (Egypt., Berber, Cushitic, Hausa, Fulani, Maasai, Nama) 2. Sudanic (East-Sudanic, West-Sudanic) 3. Bantu Meinhof's "Hamitic" group included languages with obvious linguistic links to Semitic (Ancient Egyptian, Berber, Cushitic and Hausa/Chadic), but also languages that only share typological traits with Semitic, like grammatical gender (Masai/Nilo-Hamitic, Fulani, Nama/Hottentot). In general, Meinhof thought he had discovered a correlation between languages with such "Semitoid" characteristics and peoples whose main mode of subsistance was pastoralism, and who were known to have been dominant politically (e.g. the Fulani in Western Africa, and the "Nilo-Hamitic" Maasai/Tutsi in Eastern Africa). This was interpreted as evidence of a Semitic-derived "Hamitic master race" which had invaded Africa in ancient times from the Near East, establishing Egyptian civilization, and had further penetrated in the African continent, providing it with its more vigorous, war-like peoples, despite subsequent admixture of Negroid blood. Unfortunately for Meinhof, the linguistic evidence shows that the "Nilo-Hanmitic" languages are most closely related to those of the more sedentary Nilotic peoples (Dinka, Nuer) of S. Sudan, and that Fulani is a branch of the equally sedentary West Atlantic (Wolof, Serer) language family. There was some opposition to Meinhof's scheme, principally from his erstwhile pupil Westermann and from French anthropologists and linguists. Westermann's scheme (roughly equivalent to the French one of Delafosse, Homburger, Cohen etc.) was: 1. Hamito-Semitic a. Semitic b. Hamitic (Egyptian, Berber, Cushitic) 2. Khoisan (Nama, San) 3. Negro (Bantu, Semi-Bantu/Western Sudanic, Eastern Sudanic) Note that in this scheme (which is apparently still current in France today), Hamitic is stripped of languages which on linguistic grounds do not belong (Nama, Masai, Fulani, Nubian), but also of Hausa and the Chadic group, languages which are clearly related to the other "Hamito-Semitic" ones on linguistic grounds, but which were classified within Negro/Western Sudanic, presumably because the Hausa are racially indistinguishable from their black West African neighbours. Also, Semitic is still seen as related to, but distinct from a single "Hamitic" group. What Greenberg did in the 1950's and 60's, was to simply look at the linguistic evidence, independent of race, hair-type or mode of subsistance, and teh conclusion he reached were the following: 1. There is no reason to divide the "Hamito-Semitic" into Semitic versus "all the rest". Pending further research on the subclassification, it should be renamed to "Afro-Asiatic", consisting of four coordinate branches: Semitic, Ancient Egyptian, Cushitic, Berber and Chadic. 2. Chadic (Hausa and related languages) belongs with Afro-Asiatic. 3. The other languages classified as "Hamitic" by Meinhof belong with Niger-Kordofanian (Fulani), Nilo-Saharan (Nuba, "Nilo-Hamitic") or Khoisan (Nama/Hottentot). 4. Bantu is a subgroup of the much wider Niger-Kordofanian family, which consists of most of teh languages previously classified as "Western Sudanic" (but excluding Chadic, and including Fulani, as well as the Kordofanian languages of Sudan). 5. Most of the so-called Eastern Sudanic languages (including Nubian and "Nilo-Hamitic", excluding Kordofanian) can be grouped into a high level group called Nilo-Saharan. 6. The Nama language (Hottentot) belongs with the San (Bushman) languages, and so do the two "click" languages of Eastern Africa, Hatsa and Sandawe. This group was labelled "Khoisan" by Greenberg. Greenberg's conclusions 1-4 are now fully accepted and uncontroversial (despite initial opposition from Bantuists to point number 4). Point 5, the Nilo-Saharan hypothesis, is accepted as a working theory by linguists working on these languages, although further evidence for the genetic unity of Nilo-Saharan is still required. Point 6 remains controversial. The genetic unity of Khoisan is not accepted by most specialists, and even less so the inclusion of Hatsa and Sandawe. It is possible that Greenberg was wrong here, led astray, like his predecessors in African classification, by racial (the Khoi-San physical type) and typological (the presence of clicks in these languages) criteria. >> Greenberg saying two language groups are unrelated? Reference! > >Well, let's just say that the current language classification in vogue >is that accepted by Greenberg. That's either a really good joke, or a sign of complete ignorance about Greenberg's position and how it's regarded by "establishment" linguists. Please, next time you throw around accusations of racism, get yourself informed first of what those people's views actually are. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 9 18:34:21 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 10:34:21 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042505.23782.9547916695098919408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >There was never any such racial criteria for the older classification of > >languages. In fact, it was more racially neutral than the current > >classification. For example, Cushitic languages were grouped together > >with Semitic ones. Now they are separated. > > They're not. You've got it backwards. The former classification had Hamito-Semitic (which included Cushitic) together as a subfamily of Afro-Asiatic. According to Greenberg, Cushitic and Semitic are not part of the same subfamily. > But the most influential classification before Greenberg's was > undoubtedly that of Meinhof, as published in his "Die Sprachen der > Hamiten" (1912). Meinhof divided African languages in three groups: > > 1. Hamito-Semitic: > a. Semitic > b. Hamitic (Egypt., Berber, Cushitic, Hausa, Fulani, Maasai, Nama) > 2. Sudanic (East-Sudanic, West-Sudanic) > 3. Bantu > > Meinhof's "Hamitic" group included languages with obvious linguistic > links to Semitic (Ancient Egyptian, Berber, Cushitic and > Hausa/Chadic), but also languages that only share typological traits > with Semitic, like grammatical gender (Masai/Nilo-Hamitic, Fulani, > Nama/Hottentot). In general, Meinhof thought he had discovered a > correlation between languages with such "Semitoid" characteristics > and peoples whose main mode of subsistance was pastoralism, and who > were known to have been dominant politically (e.g. the Fulani in > Western Africa, and the "Nilo-Hamitic" Maasai/Tutsi in Eastern > Africa). This was interpreted as evidence of a Semitic-derived > "Hamitic master race" which had invaded Africa in ancient times from > the Near East, establishing Egyptian civilization, and had further > penetrated in the African continent, providing it with its more > vigorous, war-like peoples, despite subsequent admixture of Negroid > blood. Those considerations were provided by anthropologists and they still exist but in a new form. The Caucasoid blood is still seen in Semitic-Berber people, and is still thought to have penetrated among the more "civilized" peoples of Africa like the Ethiopians. However, other Caucasoid penetration involved adopting "native" languages. And "Hamitic" and "Semitic" languages are still genetically related as Afro-Asiatic, only the important "white" Hamitic languages are no longer more closer related to Cushitic which could open some unwanted possibilites in the minds of some. Now, Greenberg has come up with a scheme that attempts to group Uralic, Altaic, Indo-European and even some American Indian languages into a great herrenvolk tongue originating from the Near East (Mt. Ararat). Now that is really the great joke that so obviously smacks of 20th century hyperdiffusionist theories. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Nov 9 20:52:13 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 10:52:13 -1000 Subject: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness In-Reply-To: <364730F3.6B5A707C@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042517.23782.9634428762528784344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, H.M.Hubey wrote: > > LMF: I wish it were that easy. You really owe us a precise definition of such a distance. > > Definition of distance is precise and well known. > > d(x,z) <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) > > It means simply that if I take a detour (to go to z from x) via y then > the > sum of the two distances which comprise the detour (i.e. d(x,y)+d(y,z)) > must be greater than or equal to the direct distance d(x,z). Any kind > of a function that satisfies this can be called a distance metric. Y /| / | / | / | / | X-----Z Here is a simple case where d(x,z) is not <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) A precise definition of distance presupposes a precise definition of the "space" (to put it simplistically, at least how many dimensions are involved)! Is there a precise and uncontroversial definition of "linguistic space", or even of "evolutionary phonological space"? I doubt it. Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja (also a comp. scientist and electrical engineer) From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Nov 9 20:57:52 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 10:57:52 -1000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <199811091639.IAA28695@shasta.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <161227042519.23782.14972504686937515551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > Wait a minute, Manu commands pouring molten lead into the ears of Sudras > > who dared listen to the Vedas! Are historical instances known, say within the last 1500-2000 years (or any time at all), when this was actually done? Just curious, and wishing to know the facts rather than the rhetoric, Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Nov 9 21:31:36 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 11:31:36 -1000 Subject: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042521.23782.2909207783001011028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, H.M.Hubey wrote: > > > Definition of distance is precise and well known. > > > > d(x,z) <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) > > > > It means simply that if I take a detour (to go to z from x) via y then > > the > > sum of the two distances which comprise the detour (i.e. d(x,y)+d(y,z)) > > must be greater than or equal to the direct distance d(x,z). Any kind > > of a function that satisfies this can be called a distance metric. > > > Y > /| > / | > / | > / | > / | > X-----Z > > Here is a simple case where d(x,z) is not <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) Oops, forgot to mention that x,z are on the surface of a sphere and y is the center of the sphere. (The point is that adding an extra dimension, i.e., allowing tunneling thru the sphere, invalidates the previous definition of "shortest distance between two points". > A precise definition of distance presupposes > a precise definition of the "space" (to put > it simplistically, at least how many dimensions > are involved)! Is there a precise and uncontroversial > definition of "linguistic space", or even of > "evolutionary phonological space"? I doubt it. Raja. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Nov 9 19:34:39 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 11:34:39 -0800 Subject: [Re: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness] Message-ID: <161227042512.23782.8888236788445346157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [snip]> Definition of distance is precise and well known.> > d(x,z) <= d(x,y) + d(y,z)> > It means simply that if I take a detour (to go to z from x) via y then> the> sum of the two distances which comprise the detour (i.e. d(x,y)+d(y,z))> must be greater than or equal to the direct distance d(x,z). Any kind> of a function that satisfies this can be called a distance metric.> > IT is easy to create phonological distances this way. What is lacking> is semantic distance. Without semantics, the exercise will be meaningless (sic). Kalyan. ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 9 20:12:53 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 12:12:53 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042510.23782.11586905226125107110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >The former classification had Hamito-Semitic (which included Cushitic) > >together as a subfamily of Afro-Asiatic. According to Greenberg, > >Cushitic and Semitic are not part of the same subfamily. > > Since Greenberg invented the term "Afro-Asiatic", any former > classification would not have included Hamito-Semitic as a > "subfamily" of Afro-Asiatic. And which other subfamilies might this > mythical pre-Greenbergian "Afro-Asiatic" have had? > Yes you're right, Cushitic was grouped together with Egyptian and Berber as Hamitic and separate from Semitic. I confused my arguments (need to slow down). The separation of Egyptian from close relationship with Cushitic was what I was getting at. There are many reasons why this bears on the race problem, but the most important is the question of the racial identity of the ancient Egyptians. Another problem is the original "race" of the Afro-Asiatic speakers. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Mon Nov 9 18:14:11 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 13:14:11 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042507.23782.17895703345101486616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > > LMF: First of all: I was not referring specifically to linguistics or semantics, >although these disciplines are certainly affected by the general problems I try to >describe. Now a "standardization of semantic distance" sounds interesting. Could you >be more specific here? Are you thinking of the amount of semantic "material" that is >common to certain languages (such as: A and B speakers understand 20% of each other's >language), or are you talking about the development of a certain root or stem? This requires some kind of a committee and which could/should start with a small number of words (like the Swadesh list) and then build bottom up. > And that necessitates > the use of > the concept of distance. Nobody can go far without it. Once the concept > of distance > becomes embedded in linguistics many problems will solve themselves. > > LMF: I wish it were that easy. You really owe us a precise definition of such a distance. Definition of distance is precise and well known. d(x,z) <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) It means simply that if I take a detour (to go to z from x) via y then the sum of the two distances which comprise the detour (i.e. d(x,y)+d(y,z)) must be greater than or equal to the direct distance d(x,z). Any kind of a function that satisfies this can be called a distance metric. IT is easy to create phonological distances this way. What is lacking is semantic distance. > The more difficult a problem is the more powerful the tools must be. > > LMF: I couldn't agree more. I think we would all like to adopt that sentence as our morning mantra. It is just finding those tools, and find a way to calibrate them. You see, it is so terribly difficult to experiment with the past. (Not counting Thor Heyerdahl, who has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that people in the old days could sail anywhere in a shoebox). If the concept of distance is used (which cannot be used now because the semantic distance is missing) all the powerful tools of math, analysis, probability theory, correlation-regression analysis, fuzzyl-logic, differential equations etc become available. > Linguistics has been blessed with lots of measurable things so it is in > much better > shape than say, psychology or even parts of sociology. If math is good > enough for them, > for physicists, engineers and everyone else, it is good enough for > linguists. > > It's irrational to deny it or claim the opposite. > > LMF: I couldn't agree more. But as I said, there is a busy little group of linguists >just wallowing in computers and statistics, analysing Shakespearean drama by means of >clustering techniques and what not. The fact is: Some problems in linguistics and >philology are numerical problems, and in the past, philologists have not unfrequently >made themselves look silly when handling such problems. However, not ALL problems are >numerical, and not EVERYTHING can be quantified. And statistics or maths will not always >produce interesting answers to the really interesting questions. 1. Are there any lists in which these people congregate? I would like to join and even invite them to building this semantic space even if only for the Swadesh-100 list to test the ideas. 2. If there are people interested in building up this semantic distance metric I think they should join language at csam.montclair.edu by sending email to majordomo at csam.montclair.edu and it can be discussed in detail there. > One does not need complete sets. Economists are faced with this problem > and have devised ways to get around it. > > LMF: This is an interesting remark. I always thought that linguists/philologists should "read around" in other fields of knowledge to see if they could pick up new ideas to experiment with. My own assumption regarding data sets is that there is a kind of critical limit: When you are past that limit, the data set is basically clear and unambiguous, even it is not entirely complete. (it is like an ordinary puzzle: when you have assembled most of the puzzle, you understand what the motive is, even if you haven't got all the details). Unfortunately, very often we are not even close to that critical limit. If you could offer us a practical remedy, most of us would probably be quite happy. > > Regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse Economists are forced to deal with real world data from different countries from different time periods and different soci-economic systems and they have developed all sorts of mathematical tools to deal with all problems that crop up. Linguists have the same problem. They deal with data from different time periods, from different languages with different syntax, and different lexicons. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Nov 9 08:21:38 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 13:51:38 +0530 Subject: Audio RV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042495.23782.4809794877855428490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:29 PM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >I'd appreciate your advice on how to get the Rg Veda, or parts thereof, on >CD or audio cassettes. >Thanks. >Beatrice Reusch >University of California, Berkeley > >?From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" To Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley Nov 9, 1998 Dear Member, I can direct you to Secretary, Vedashastrottejak Sabha 2046 Sadashiv Peth, Opp. Sanas Ground PUNE 411 030, India for your need of audio cassettes of Vedic recitation. If I succeed in getting more details sooner, I shall e-mail them in Indology, unless you give me your e-mail address. Best wishes. KSA From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 9 22:38:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 14:38:52 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042525.23782.5365791747201722527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>From R. Drews, The coming of the Greeks: The Indo-European conquests >>in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton UP, 1988: >> Today many linguists are quite aware that linguistic change has not >>always proceeded at a glacial place. In preliterate societies, language >>may change rather rapidly: M. C. Vidal wrote >Or extremely slowly. What is clear is that language change proceeds >at highly unpredictable rates. >>literature has a conservative influence >>upon both vocabulary and grammar, and a people without literature >>might be relatively uninhibited in its linguistic innovation [22]. The rate of language change in preliterate societies is usually high, rather than "extremely slowly". In subsaharan Africa, thousands of nonliterary languages/dialects in the Bantu family exist because they did not develop writing. Writing definitely has a conservative effect. Once Andree Sjoberg, the linguist who studies Altaic, Dravidian languages told me something like: "Look at English grammar, it has changed greatly in the last 500 years. Whereas agglutinative languages like Dravidian don't change that much. The amazing thing about India is even though Sanskrit became the 'prestige/high status' language after ca. 1500 B.C., the effect on its grammar by 'low status' Dravidian is remarkable. From Vedic to Middle IA to NIA. It is the nature of IE languages." Now, scholars say that Vedic is more innovative than previously thought. Could Hittite, being an IE language, innovated faster in a 1000 years or so? Then a 3000-2500 B.C. PIE breakup from Pontic-Caspian would certainly become possible. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 9 23:17:52 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 15:17:52 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042523.23782.6380954776855706028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > > Wait a minute, Manu commands pouring molten lead into the ears of Sudras > > > who dared listen to the Vedas! > > Are historical instances known, say > within the last 1500-2000 years (or > any time at all), when this was > actually done? > > Just curious, and wishing to know the > facts rather than the rhetoric, > Actually this was meant as a humorous retort to Ganesan's comments on nomadic peoples. >?From a serious standpoint, there is no reason to surmise that Indian peoples are any less violent than those of the steppe. Just look at the abhorrent violence in Sri Lanka or in Northeast India today. And I don't think anyone can deny that there is a great deal of caste violence that still goes on today, although I haven't heard of anyone getting the molten lead treatment. >?From the historical standpoint, I don't see Indian history as any less inclined to warfare than other regions despite the doctrine of ahimsa. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 9 23:19:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 15:19:34 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042527.23782.1707345435307750640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > Thank God! Aryans or Dravidians were not this violent :-) P. K. Manasala wrote: *Wait a minute, Manu commands pouring molten lead into the *ears of Sudras who dared listen to the Vedas! Wait a minute :-) Your information seems to be legendary. This is not a strong motif in the entire Sanskrit corpus of letters. Tiny percenatge just like the horse in 10 Greek legends. Furthermore, you are ignoring the fact that there is absolutely NO archaeological evidence. Note that this idea must have hopped over to India like Buddhism to Japan. Yours N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Nov 10 00:41:38 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 16:41:38 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042531.23782.14393204749559001635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > N. Ganesan wrote: > > Thank God! Aryans or Dravidians were not this violent :-) > ^^^^^ Actually wait a minute again. Don't some people consider Scythians to be "Aryan." I thought the Vedic people, according to the AIT, were supposed to something along this line. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Mon Nov 9 14:30:17 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 17:30:17 +0300 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages Message-ID: <161227042556.23782.166075786022630540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In 1979 the participants of the IV World Sanskrit Conference were lucky to see an excellent performance of MudrArAkSasa at Deutschen Nationaltheater in Weimar (East Germany). It was staged in 1977; the translation by Prof. W.Morgenroth was used. There is a book: Mudrarakshasa oder des Kanzlers Siegelring. Dokumentation einer Inszenierung am Deutschen Nationalteater in Weimar unter der Regie von Vijaya Mehta und Fritz Bennewitz. Berlin, 1979 (contains German translation of the play, several articles and many photographs). Russian translation of zUdraka's MRcchakaTikA was done in 1956 by V.Vorob'jov-Desjatovskij; a year later the play was staged in Moscow as "The White Lotus" (in the 1960-ies it was still performed, but, as it seems to me now, under the original title: "The Little Clay Cart"). Best regards, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From mcv at WXS.NL Mon Nov 9 18:16:24 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 18:16:24 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <364735AD.844C971C@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042508.23782.14483039933769205594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >The former classification had Hamito-Semitic (which included Cushitic) >together as a subfamily of Afro-Asiatic. According to Greenberg, >Cushitic and Semitic are not part of the same subfamily. Since Greenberg invented the term "Afro-Asiatic", any former classification would not have included Hamito-Semitic as a "subfamily" of Afro-Asiatic. And which other subfamilies might this mythical pre-Greenbergian "Afro-Asiatic" have had? Maybe the following diagram can be of assistance: Former classification: Hamito-Semitic ______ Semitic |_____ Hamitic ____ Berber |___ (Chadic) [often excluded] |___ Cushitic |___ Egyptian Greenberg's classification: Afro-Asiatic _________ Berber |________ Chadic |________ Cushitic |________ Egyptian |________ Semitic Or simply consult any dictionary or encyclopaedia, like Merriam Webster's: Af.ro-Asi.at.ic adj (1953): of, relating to, or being a family of languages widely distributed over southwestern Asia and Africa comprising the Semitic, Egyptian, Berber, Cushitic, and Chadic subfamilies. Ham.i.to-Se.mit.ic adj (1901): of, relating to, or constituting the Afro-Asiatic languages -- Hamito-Semitic n. Ham.it.ic adj (1844): of, relating to, or characteristic of the Hamites or one of the Hamitic languages. Hamitic n (ca. 1890): -> hamitic languages Hamitic languages n pl (ca. 1890): any of various groupings of non-Semitic Afro-Asiatic languages (as Berber, Egyptian, and Cushitic) that were formerly thought to comprise a single branch of the Afro-Asiatic family. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 9 21:09:36 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 21:09:36 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042515.23782.578693412051216713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote: This requires some kind of a committee and which could/should start with a small number of words (like the Swadesh list) and then build bottom up. LMF: Oh dear, we are dealing with glottochronology here. I am afraid that glottochronology has been rather a fiasco. The linguistic premises simply don't work. I read a bit of glottochronology when I did my Ph.D. and the sad fact is that languages don't behave in the way the theory presupposes. That is why it is not so hot anymore. See, among others, R. M. W. Dixon: "The rise and fall of languages", 1997 and Bergsland and Vogt, 1962: "On the Validity of Glottochronology". Current Anthropology, 3.115-58. > LMF: I wish it were that easy. You really owe us a precise definition of such a distance. Definition of distance is precise and well known. d(x,z) <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) It means simply that if I take a detour (to go to z from x) via y then the sum of the two distances which comprise the detour (i.e. d(x,y)+d(y,z)) must be greater than or equal to the direct distance d(x,z). Any kind of a function that satisfies this can be called a distance metric. LMF: Could you give us a couple of precise examples from a linguistic context? If the concept of distance is used (which cannot be used now because the semantic distance is missing) all the powerful tools of math, analysis, probability theory, correlation-regression analysis, fuzzy-logic, differential equations etc become available. LMF: I doubt very much that a semantic distance can be produced. It has to be given a clear unequivocal definition, and then it must be measured on some kind of pragmatic basis, which is impossible for lack of data. 1. Are there any lists in which these people congregate? I would like to join and even invite them to building this semantic space even if only for the Swadesh-100 list to test the ideas. LMF: There used to be a list for statistical linguistics, but I haven't seen anything from it for a long time. I believe it was called "pragmatist" or something to that effect. There is also a journal called Literary and Linguistic Computing (If I remember correctly, I can't find any references right now). It is absolutely worth reading, you will find a lot of exciting stuff there. Economists are forced to deal with real world data from different countries from different time periods and different soci-economic systems and they have developed all sorts of mathematical tools to deal with all problems that crop up. Linguists have the same problem. They deal with data from different time periods, from different languages with different syntax, and different lexicons. LMF: As far as I know, economists are good at dealing with modern (or relatively modern) data, but economic theories about the ancient world are as full of question marks as historical linguistics or archaeology. In fact, I think the economists have much less data to work on that we do. You should take a look at some of the economic histories written in the field, and you will find a great many ifs and buts. As usual, it is the lack of appropriate data that is the problem. (You might for instance want to read A. H. M. Jones: The Later Roman Empire. A social, economic and administrative survey. Oxford 1973. ) Therefore, it is not so certain that economics offer us the wonder-tools that we need. But it might be worth trying. My basic point is this: Statistics and maths have a lot to offer the linguist or analyst of style. But everything has to be thought through from scratch: which methods are useful, how should they be used, how should the data be interpreted, etc.? Here are a couple of words from Douglas Biber, a highly competent linguist-cum-statistician: "First you spend two years preparing your data for analysis. Then you spend 20 seconds running them through your computer. Then you spend the next two years interpreting them". (Quoted from memory). You do simply not know in advance which methods are useful, and whatever you do statistically stands and falls with the quality of your linguistic or philological scholarship. You cannot automatically transfer methods or metrics from other branches of scholarship, you have to prove or demonstrate that a given method actually gives meaningful results in a linguistic or philological environment. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ysyoung at GIASPN01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Nov 9 16:03:07 1998 From: ysyoung at GIASPN01.VSNL.NET.IN (Shinyoung Yoo) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 21:33:07 +0530 Subject: quit mail Message-ID: <161227042501.23782.17294751705222478198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quit the mail please. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 9 22:46:10 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 22:46:10 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042539.23782.4408862539955522858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, H.M.Hubey wrote: > > LMF: I wish it were that easy. You really owe us a precise definition of such a distance. > > Definition of distance is precise and well known. > > d(x,z) <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) > > It means simply that if I take a detour (to go to z from x) via y then > the > sum of the two distances which comprise the detour (i.e. d(x,y)+d(y,z)) > must be greater than or equal to the direct distance d(x,z). Any kind > of a function that satisfies this can be called a distance metric. Narayan Sriranga Raja wrote: Y /| / | / | / | / | X-----Z Here is a simple case where d(x,z) is not <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) A precise definition of distance presupposes a precise definition of the "space" (to put it simplistically, at least how many dimensions are involved)! Is there a precise and uncontroversial definition of "linguistic space", or even of "evolutionary phonological space"? I doubt it. LMF: I think this is rather the point. Linguistic space has to be described on the basis of sufficient data, which we often lack. It is, however, obviously (from experience) unpredictable, and statistical laws are not easy to define, since linguistic space is fundamentally chaotic. Some trends are foreseeable (like language death, mixing of languages etc), and we may assume that such trends have been at work in the past, but that is about as far as we get. To say something specific, we need specific data. We cannot simply derive sound knowledge from general mathematical rules. However, given data, we can describe processes and evaluate the data with maths and stats. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2482 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Nov 10 06:52:34 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 22:52:34 -0800 Subject: [On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep] Message-ID: <161227042535.23782.12483964868873497662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: [snip]> I believe what connects them is the conviction that if the use of those> <>, for the application of which you appeal, wouldn't> go together with the transparency of basic rules/procedures (and among them> the rigid procedure for data evaluation), we all may become witness to a> lot of wasted effort.[snip]> P.S. It's cold outside (0.C) and raining. I would certainly wish to get out> of this miserable weather and be for a while in a warmer clima of India. If> only via this list. I will also not comment on Chuvash and Etrurian. Nor can I evaluate the contributions by Indo-European studies, say, in the last 5 decades, to enhancing methodological rigour. While seconding Karp's above-cited observations, one might add that these observations are equally applicable to the nearly 150 years of wasted effort in pursing the Proto-Aryan (demography-language equation) problem. May be 'wasted effort' is too strong a phrase; but we seem to be back to ground zero; it will be worth the while to look back on these years of philological studies to list the major landmark accomplishments: In linguists, the setum = kentum divide is a major discovery; a nother accomplishment which is noteworthy is the substantial decipherment of the Rigveda, excepting for the failure to identify Soma, which is a_tma_ yajn~asya; this in effect, means that the decipherment of the Rigveda is itself a doubtful accomplishment; we may ahve to hark back to Sa_yan.a of the 13th century AD for some help to recover the lost ground. Certainly, Karp will find a lot of warmth in South India now; and also a high price for onions, about Rs. 40 (about a dolar) a kilo. Best regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Mon Nov 9 23:37:32 1998 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 00:37:32 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages Message-ID: <161227042529.23782.9023064283062432479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I would like to know whether classical Sanskrit plays have ever been staged in European theaters during the past two centuries and whether it was a success. I know of course that some plays have been translated into european tongues but I have been wondering whether some of these had reached the general public. Thanks for any hint -- J.-L. Chevillard P.S. I am not talking about performances like Peter Brook's Mahabharata, but about traditional plays. From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Tue Nov 10 07:09:19 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 02:09:19 -0500 Subject: On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep Message-ID: <161227042537.23782.10886511567726587603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > However, the sentence: < Tusci/Tursi. Turan was a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ > is the root for > birth and begetting in Turkic.>> made me curious. [There is no reason why > an old Pole should be worse in this respect than any old Kurd. Or less > sententious.] The main problem (in problems of this type and generally in every kind of problem) is that we can all use only the tools and knowledge we have and not those we do not have. It is quite understandable that you should be able to spot words which are IE, Polish, Indic etc because that is what you know. It is also quite easily understandable when others do similar things. But what should also be remembered is that this happens all the time and over centuries. We do not have the knowledge that exists in books that we did not read. So it is easily understandable if an Altaic scholar with a narrow view, or one who has studied a little Iranian and Chinese and thinks of everything in terms of that not to know that Turan does not only exist in the minds of Iranians or that Iranians and Chinese did not invent everything. However, this attitude persists among scholars. What is worse is that it leads to circular thinking like; "we know X-people had nothing, so there is no need to look" and since people don't look, it is not amazing that they don't find anything. But then, it leads to "nobody has found anything, so they had nothing", which then leads to the original attitude. It also shows up in another fallacy; anytime you see a word written for the first time someplace, the word becomes a possession of that language. So if you see Turan written 200 BC in Behistun it automatically becomes an "Iranian". So it is standard practice to attribute almost any word in Turkic, Uralic etc to Iranian or Chinese and if not, then to Arabic. The only time anything can be done is if by luck this word can be shown to be some other place, like Etruscan or Sumerian and NOT IE. > > <>. > > If I get it rightly, this statement allows you to identify Etruscan tur- > and Turkic tuw-. The reasoning here hangs obviously on the equation > "fertility - birth and begetting". Let me note a couple of what might be > elementary problems here: I don't know if you read the two long posts in which you could see (1) a short list/example of Sumero-Turkic cognates and (2) a shorter list of Etruscan-Turk parallels. Much of whatever you need can be found from that point on. > > 1) Even if Turan were a fertility goddess, it doesn't follow that her > name's morphological structure must be tur-an; > > 2) Even if Turan were a fertility goddess and her name's morphological > structure were tur-an, it doesn't follow that her name must mean > "fertility" [in fact, the meaning of her name is thought to be something > closer to "Dispenseress" - which may agree with her nymphic (Aphrodite, > Venus) nature; Dominique Thillaud would certainly know better and more]. If Turan is Etruscan (and/or if Etruscan may be related to Sumerian, or proto-Euphratic) then we have a reasonable grounds for looking for roots of Turan in proto-Euphratic (and thus Turkic) or in Sumerian. I merely pointed out that 'tu' or 'tuw' is the root in Turkic having to do with 'birth', and 'begetting'. Almost miraculously, 'tuwurghan' or 'tuurghan' really does mean 'she that gives birth'. Now it could be that 'tu' might be related to a long set of words having to do with sex, penis, pointed objects, etc. But after 5,000 years anything can happen to a language. If we had a dictionary of Etruscan, Sumerian and Turkic from 3,000 BC until now, say, every 100 years, we would not have any problems, but since we don't have it we have only partial data to go on. > I would only be glad if my suspicions were not confirmed. > > But as it is, there is too much hypothetical element - too many ifs > involved here, for anyone to be so easy (and vehement) about connecting the > Turanians with Turks via the Etruscan goddess of fertility. > > And this is precisely the context in which protests start to appear. I think you did not read the other posts. > And: pardon me, that aside with sheep was not at all funny, especially > considering that it also was entirely without value as an argument or > illustration. I thought at the time it was quite appropriate since from my point of view the original post did not sound much like anything except heckling from an ignorant high-school dropout street bum. There are PhDs and maybe physicists here (and probably) many engineers and computer scientists and I can assure you that most of them understand quite well what distance, space, metric space, probability theory, diffusion equation, etc mean. Under the circumstances some ignorant laut making fun of a serious (and obviously something to him totally incomprehensible) concept/idea deserves an appropriate (equal and opposite) remark. This is how the demagogues (and religious fanatics) manage to rule and suppress science and free speech. It is simply through the power of the easily exciteable ignorant masses. Anyone is free to disagree. How you disagree does matter. > Regards, > > Artur Karp, M.A. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Tue Nov 10 07:25:46 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 02:25:46 -0500 Subject: [On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep] Message-ID: <161227042541.23782.10350994747799892247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > > While seconding Karp's above-cited observations, one might add that > these observations are equally applicable to the nearly 150 years of wasted > effort in pursing the Proto-Aryan (demography-language equation) problem. May > be 'wasted effort' is too strong a phrase; but we seem to be > back to ground zero; it will be worth the while to look back on these years of > philological studies to list the major landmark > accomplishments: These things happen all the time. For example, while reading books on Hittite I ran accross some strange things. One of them was that the word 'kaska' (if I recall correctly) is defined as "an insect of ominous import'. This is from the texts/dictionary by OI of Chicago. Similarly the word "uwaq" or "uwag" or "uvag" shows up in the Satrapies of Persia and also in some Hittite song. No matter. The word 'kaska' is locust/grasshopper. And it exists in Karachay-Balkar (KB) of the North Caucasus. Now Doerfer (a famous Turcologist) constructs the prototurkic sound(s) as *d > *d' > c > y. It so happens that most Turcologists apparently want to forget this and claim that c came after y. NOw KB is /c/ language which makes it older than the other versions. And it is in the west. The peoples which you can find mentioned in the Cambridge ANE like Turuk(ku), Khumuk(ku), Kuman(ni), Kashka etc are apparently lost from the way they are treated. But of course teh Kumans were Turkic speakers. Kumuk are alive and well in the Caucasus and speaking Turkic. Kashkai are alive and well in Iran and speaking Turkic. It is obvious who the Turuk are. Tuna's book shows 165 cognates between Sumerian and Turkic. The words belong to what Landsberger (a recognized authority in Sumerian) calls "proto-Euphratic" and the region is in the middle of the region where the Turuk, Kuman, Kashkai, Khumuk are mentioned. I found about 30 pages of Hittite-Turkic (which I am still sifting). Now Turkic belongs to two primary branches l~r (Bolgharic) and sh~z (Common Turkic) from the fact that one of the most common changes between them are l > sh and r > z. There was also d-Bolgharic. And some of the changes between KB and Chuvash (Bolgharic) is c > s or c>sh etc. There is so much evidence that I can't even write it all here, and yet there are people who do not even have the capacity to understand how complex problems are solved (because they have never solved any even medium complex problem in their lives) think it is fun to play "white-trash" and beat up on the "niggers" (figuratively speaking). Even someone who never even heard of probability theory should have enough common sense, given the evidence, that something seems to be amiss. They can write whatever their intellectual level allows them to understand. But they should also know that if that is the level of their (in)comprehension, then they are inviting retaliation at the same level. I don't like to turn the other cheek to idiots. I used to do that. They get worse. To some people silence signifies guilt. To me it was "the best answer to a fool is silence". I guess now I have changed my algorithms :-) especially after having gotten framed and slandered a few times. One can disagree. That does not matter,and is expected. How one disagrees does matter. > Best regards, > Kalyanaraman -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Tue Nov 10 07:35:42 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 02:35:42 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: SV: On logic and fuzziness Message-ID: <161227042543.23782.2255600553768051422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, H.M.Hubey wrote: > > > > LMF: I wish it were that easy. You really owe us a precise definition of such a distance. > > > > Definition of distance is precise and well known. > > > > d(x,z) <= d(x,y) + d(y,z) > > > LMF: I think this is rather the point. Linguistic space has to be described on the basis of sufficient data, which we often lack. It is, however, obviously (from experience) unpredictable, and statistical laws are not easy to define, since linguistic space is fundamentally chaotic. 1. Linguistic space does not have to be constructed on the basis of sufficient data. 2. Dynamical laws of linguistics are a far cry from construction of a simple metric space. HOwever, it is possible to analyze dynamical laws using metric spaces. Furthermore these metrics can also be used in statistical analysis of all sorts and types. It is only after all of this that you can make your model and then claim that it is chaotic. 3. YOu want to assert some truth and then deny the method that can show it to be false. This is not how the science I learned works. >Some trends are foreseeable (like language death, mixing of languages etc), and we may assume >that such trends have been at work in the past, but that is about as far as we get. To say >something specific, we need specific data. We cannot simply derive sound knowledge from >general mathematical rules. However, given data, we can describe processes and evaluate the >data with maths and stats. These trends (whatever they might be) can only be scientifically analyzed on the basis of measurements which imply metric spaces and hence distances. Without that statements will remain pre-scientific. That is the reason why phonetics (speech synthesis, speech recognition) has become a science but phonology remains a game in which people draw pictures at two different levels and draw arrows between them and use level 1 to "explain" level 2 and use level 2 to "explain" level one. Have you read any of the posts of "Metallaeus" on sci.lang? > -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hart at POLBOX.COM Tue Nov 10 06:24:40 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 07:24:40 +0100 Subject: On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep Message-ID: <161227042533.23782.1659602870906020854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:07 8.11.98 -0500, Mark Hubey wrote: >Dominique.Thillaud wrote: >> >> H.M.Hubey wrote: >> >That is also false. Romans called the Etruscans Tusci/Tursi. Turan was >> >a fertility goddes of Etruscans. Remarkably, /tuw/ is the root for >> >birth and begetting in Turkic. >> >> Just a remark. The few we know about the Goddess Turan shows that >> She is the Etruscan equivalent of the Latin Venus and the Greek Aphrodite >> and nothing else. Hence, surely not a "fertility Goddess"! Assuming a link >> between Turan and "birth and begetting" shows the same flimsiness than, >> phonetically, between 'tur' and 'tuw'. > >I think that this old Kurd I talked to circa 1971 who said sex was >the "entertainment for poor people" knew more about sex and love than >you did :-) > >Nobody else except people with full stomachs usually in 20th century >or royalty in earlier times could actually make a big deal of "love" >as opposed to sex. IT is usually a euphemism, and poor and hungry people >don't care if they screw sheep, and love is far from their minds. > > >> Best regards, >> Dominique >> >> PS: The confusion between love and fertility is probably a common idea in >> some monotheistic religions, but Greeks and Romans made a clear difference >> between the both ;-) >> >> Dominique THILLAUD >> Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > >-- >Best Regards, >Mark > ----------------------------------------------------------- As an indologist (able only to read some original Sanskrit, Pali & Hindi), I wouldn't dare to express any opinions concerning <>. However, the sentence: <> made me curious. [There is no reason why an old Pole should be worse in this respect than any old Kurd. Or less sententious.] <>. If I get it rightly, this statement allows you to identify Etruscan tur- and Turkic tuw-. The reasoning here hangs obviously on the equation "fertility - birth and begetting". Let me note a couple of what might be elementary problems here: 1) Even if Turan were a fertility goddess, it doesn't follow that her name's morphological structure must be tur-an; 2) Even if Turan were a fertility goddess and her name's morphological structure were tur-an, it doesn't follow that her name must mean "fertility" [in fact, the meaning of her name is thought to be something closer to "Dispenseress" - which may agree with her nymphic (Aphrodite, Venus) nature; Dominique Thillaud would certainly know better and more]. I would only be glad if my suspicions were not confirmed. But as it is, there is too much hypothetical element - too many ifs involved here, for anyone to be so easy (and vehement) about connecting the Turanians with Turks via the Etruscan goddess of fertility. And this is precisely the context in which protests start to appear. I believe what connects them is the conviction that if the use of those <>, for the application of which you appeal, wouldn't go together with the transparency of basic rules/procedures (and among them the rigid procedure for data evaluation), we all may become witness to a lot of wasted effort. You seem to be certain that the introduction of such tools would ultimately result in that <> [message to Lars Fosse, 8.11.]. The use of the phrase <> suggests a minimum program. What is the maximum program? And: pardon me, that aside with sheep was not at all funny, especially considering that it also was entirely without value as an argument or illustration. Regards, Artur Karp, M.A. University of Warsaw Poland P.S. It's cold outside (0.C) and raining. I would certainly wish to get out of this miserable weather and be for a while in a warmer clima of India. If only via this list. A. K. From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU Tue Nov 10 12:54:37 1998 From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Rebecca Manring) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 07:54:37 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981110003732.006e7400@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227042553.23782.8084049022193026052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes; I saw Bhasa's Broken Thigh staged in London about ten years ago, by a group of Asian-Britons, using the original staging as much as possible. It was performed in a small theatre and about half the audience left at intermission, but those of us who stayed, enjoyed it tremendously. Rebecca Manring India Studies Indiana University On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > I would like to know whether classical Sanskrit plays > have ever been staged in European theaters > during the past two centuries and whether it was a success. > > I know of course that some plays have been > translated into european tongues > but I have been wondering whether some of these > had reached the general public. > > Thanks for any hint > > -- J.-L. Chevillard > > P.S. I am not talking about performances > like Peter Brook's Mahabharata, but about > traditional plays. > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 10 08:28:22 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 08:28:22 +0000 Subject: SV: Sanskrit plays on European stages Message-ID: <161227042545.23782.12463558889035352669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. L. Chevillard wrote: I would like to know whether classical Sanskrit plays have ever been staged in European theaters during the past two centuries and whether it was a success. I don't think any Sanskrit plays have been staged in this country in a regular theatre, but Kalidasa's Shakuntala was staged and performed by the Norwegian Radio Theatre (thus reaching the entire population in principle). It was translated by one of our most brilliant literary translators, Mr. Rytter, into New Norwegian (the man even knew Sanskrit!), and the result was complete magic. Often, Sanskrit literature is massacred by the horrible philological translations that are necessary for scholars, but should not be given to anyone outside a university. Mr. Rytter's translation made Shakuntala sound as wonderful in Norwegian as it does in Sanskrit. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1981 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 10 08:59:37 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 08:59:37 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <19981109223852.27382.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042547.23782.10251015006492145928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > The rate of language change in preliterate societies is > usually high, rather than "extremely slowly". > In subsaharan Africa, thousands of nonliterary languages/dialects > in the Bantu family exist because they did not develop writing. > Writing definitely has a conservative effect. But only on the surface. Underneath it, language keeps changing. Writing did not stop English from udergoing the Big Vowel Shift... Of course in those days, literacy figures were low. I'm not sure what the effect is/will be on rate of language change of modern generalized literacy (in most parts of the world, anyway), but maybe because of TV linguists won't have to worry too much about that. The existence of a writing standard certainly does tend to exaggerate the "punctuated equilibrium" aspect of language change. Look at Latin and the Romance languages. For centuries, Classical Latin was the official language of the Roman Empire, and although one can see the language slowly developing during that time, the changes were relatively minor. Even after the fall of the Roman Empire Latin remained in use unchanged as the written standard. But when the first Romance texts appear in the period 900-1200, the changes [from Latin and between one Romance variety and another] are major and abrupt. How much of this sudden change is apparent only, and how much of it is real? Had the changes slowly accumulated, masked by the existence of a conservative writing standard for a thousand years, or did the rate of change really increase after the fall of the Roman Empire? Probably both. Language change isn't always gradual, but it isn't always as abrupt as the change from one writing standard to another appears to show. > Could Hittite, being an IE language, innovated faster in a > 1000 years or so? Then a 3000-2500 B.C. PIE breakup from > Pontic-Caspian would certainly become possible. Certainly. [I think that Hittite is actually the more archaic language, and that it were the others that innovated]. Still, the differences between Hittite/Anatolian and the other IE languages are very considerable. Hittite shows no sign of feminine gender, only animate/inanimate, no dual, no special declension for the o-stems, a genitive that in Luwian is still adjectival in character, a simple dative/locative case in -i, an allative case in -a, an instrumental in -it, no special forms for the dat/loc., ins. & abl. cases in the plural (no sign of the *-bh- and *-m- suffixes we see elsewhere), a pronominal gentive in -l, a pronominal infix -eda- (vs. -sm- in Sanskrit and other lgs.), a simple verbal system with only present and past tenses, with no sign at all of aspect/tenses like the imperfect, aorist, perfect, pluperfect, future, or of moods like the optative and conjunctive. No distinction between thematic and athematic conjugations, but instead a fundamental difference between active (-mi) and stative/deponent (-hi, -ha) verbs, mirroring the animate/inanimate distinction in the nominal system. Those are pretty big differences, and I find them almost impossible to reconcile with an IE breakup between 3000-2500, considering that we already have Hittite and Mycenaean Greek texts a millennium later, c. 1500 ~ 1000 BC (and that the Rgveda was probably composed somewhere in that same period). *Almost* impossible, of course. Language change *is* unpredictable. But if you ask me for an estimate (give or take a thousand years) of how long Greek and Hittite had been diverging at the time of our first records (say 1500 BC), I have to say that 3 ~ 4000 years seems more likely than 1 ~ 2000 years. I'd say the latter figure (1 ~ 2000 years) fits the divergence between Mycenaean Greek and Vedic Sanskrit better. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 10 09:10:18 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 09:10:18 +0000 Subject: On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981110072440.007a3980@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227042549.23782.7521249715450144206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: >2) Even if Turan were a fertility goddess and her name's morphological >structure were tur-an, it doesn't follow that her name must mean >"fertility" [in fact, the meaning of her name is thought to be something >closer to "Dispenseress" - which may agree with her nymphic (Aphrodite, >Venus) nature; Yes, Etruscan is "to give". There is possibly a connection with Pre-Greek "king, tyrant", which would fit the Minoan "palace economy" rather well (the king being the one who gives, or rather, redistributes). Whether that makes Venus/Turan the "Dispenseress" or "Tyrant Love", I don't know. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Nov 10 18:51:36 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 10:51:36 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042564.23782.7652649977162927323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote: > > [my explanation of how different Hittite is..] > > How was Hittite then classified as IE ? > > Because other things are not different. Hittite *has* a nominative > in -s, acc. in -n (< -m), plural in -es, verbal endings -mi, -si, > -ti, etc. What put Hrozny on the track of Hittite as an IE language > was the word , which means "water". > > As a crude measure, if we take the Swadesh list of the 100 most basic > words, we find some 13 (and a few doubtful ones) which are cognate > between Classical Greek and Hittite. Given that a large corpus of Greek words are thought to be non-IE in origin, how many of the 13 are found in other IE languages? How many words are cognate between Hittite and Hindi or English? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Nov 10 16:22:33 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 11:22:33 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042560.23782.4847232891935236766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> {..] * *Still, the differences between Hittite/Anatolian and the other IE *languages are very considerable. Hittite shows no sign of feminine *gender, only animate/inanimate, no dual, no special declension for *the o-stems, a genitive that in Luwian is still adjectival in *character, a simple dative/locative case in -i, an allative case in *-a, an instrumental in -it, no special forms for the dat/loc., ins. & *abl. cases in the plural (no sign of the *-bh- and *-m- suffixes we *see elsewhere), a pronominal gentive in -l, a pronominal infix -eda- *(vs. -sm- in Sanskrit and other lgs.), a simple verbal system with *only present and past tenses, with no sign at all of aspect/tenses *like the imperfect, aorist, perfect, pluperfect, future, or of moods *like the optative and conjunctive. No distinction between thematic *and athematic conjugations, but instead a fundamental difference *between active (-mi) and stative/deponent (-hi, -ha) verbs, mirroring *the animate/inanimate distinction in the nominal system. How was Hittite then classified as IE ? What are the other IE languages which don't have the gender but have animate/inanimate ? * *Those are pretty big differences, and I find them almost impossible ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *to reconcile with an IE breakup between 3000-2500, considering that *we already have Hittite and Mycenaean Greek texts a millennium later, *c. 1500 ~ 1000 BC (and that the Rgveda was probably composed *somewhere in that same period). * **Almost* impossible, of course. Language change *is* unpredictable. *But if you ask me for an estimate (give or take a thousand years) of *how long Greek and Hittite had been diverging at the time of our *first records (say 1500 BC), I have to say that 3 ~ 4000 years seems *more likely than 1 ~ 2000 years. I'd say the latter figure (1 ~ 2000 *years) fits the divergence between Mycenaean Greek and Vedic Sanskrit *better. * * *======================= *Miguel Carrasquer Vidal *mcv at wxs.nl *Amsterdam * Selvaa From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 10 19:44:06 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 11:44:06 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042570.23782.9027151996851818012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<<<<<<<<< Renfrew puts PIE around or before 6000 BC (the date of the earliest farmers in Greece and the Balkans) or even earlier, in Anatolia (Catal Huyuk, c. 7000 BC). Such dates are impossibly early, and Renfrew's arguments are linguistically unsound in other respects (if Hittite is the direct descendant of the "stay behinds" in Anatolia, and Greek the direct descendant of the language of the first farmers that crossed over from Anatolia to Greece, then we would expect Greek to be closest to Hittite. In fact, Greek is much more similar to Sanskrit than to Hittite). But I do agree with Renfrew that there's a striking similarity between the expansion of Indo-European languages across Europe and the expansion of agriculture across the same area. It has to be borne in mind, however, that this expansion was not entirely gradual as Renfrew has it, but proceeded in several stages. It is easy to see how this came about: the Anatolian farmers, when they crossed over into Greece, Bulgaria and southern parts of ex-Yugoslavia and Romania, found circumstances similar to the ones they were used to in Anatolia: basically hilly terrain and Mediterranean climate. Further north, in temperate Europe (Ukrainian and Hungarian steppe, North European flatlands), conditions were quite different, and the Mediterranean farming techniques simply did not work. ... >>>>>>>>>>> Catal Hayuk in Anatolia is not the only site where Agriculture originated. Mehrgarh in Indus valley culture may have done it even earlier. See Shaffer below. Mehrgarh has nothing to do with IE languages. Like Mehrgarh, the agriculturization of Europe may have nothing to do with IE languages. Found in the same region, Catal Hayuk and Hittites got to be linked and have been given too heavy weight to push back IE origin dates by Renfrew and others. Agriculture originates elsewhere also. How do we account for Mehrgarh? Should it be linked to the spread of agriculture in Europe also? The common vocabulary in IE for wheel transport technology (ca. 3500 BC), the Dnieper river boundary (ca. 3500 BC) pointing to a linguistic boundary puting IE in Pontic-Caspian area argue for a late PIE breakup. There is wide scholarly agreement on IE myth/ritual/culture relations even in historical times and need not be abandoned. Preliterate Africa had/s 1000s of languages all in Bantu family. Dr. Vidal's post tells me that Romance changed a lot even after Writing. Romance languages would have changed a lot further without the communications revolution brought about by increase in vehicles/mobility and standardization and mutual intelligibility from Roman script. IE languages innovate faster (eg., compared to agglutinative Dravidian). So, I think known IE innovation rates coupled with less mobility and no writing would argue for PIE fast reaching to observed differences between Greek, Vedic and Hittite in ca. 1500 B. C. As far as PIE splitting up, 2000 years appears sufficient where as 4000 years appears rather very high. (Not to speak of 6000 or 8000 years before ca. 1500 BC. Just as Sanskritized Indians say Rig Veda is 4000 BC or like Tamil nationalists say Tolkaappiyam is 3000 BC) Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------------- >?From Jim Shaffer, Migration, Philology and South Asian Archaeology, 1997 (to appear in Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia) "The Mehrgarh excavations (Jansen, Mulloy and Urban 1991; Jarrige, Jarrige Meadow and Quivron 1995), near Sibri, Pakistan, changed our understanding about the origins of South Asian food production. Prior to 1980, food production in South Asia was thought to be a Western, intrusive cultural invention. This interpretation is not now acceptable. Mehrgarh Period IA dates to the seventh millennium BC, but some scholars speculate that this dated cultural unit represents an even earlier culture due to its initial, complex level of development. Most important was the identification of wild representatives of domesticable plants and animals indicating their use by the local human populations. The Mehrgarh seventh millennium BC population had a plant economy already based on domesticated wheats and barley, with a high incidence (90%) of naked six-row barley, a variety which occurs only in a post-domestcation context. Gazelle were hunted along with wild sheep, goat, cattle and water buffalo. However, the small size of some goats, a post-domestication trait, and intentional placement of immature goats in human burials argues that goats were herded. In Mehrgarh Period IB, at 6000-5500 BC, fully domesticated sheep, goats and cattle were the major animals exploited. Shortly after Period II at Mehrgarh, domesticated cattle represented 60% of the animals consumed, reflecting an emphasis, albeit variable, upon cattle exploitation that persists into the second millennium BC. This is a rare pattern in the ancient Old World where domesticated sheep/goat were the domesticated animals emphasized most. Furthermore, by the Harappan period, after 2500 BC, specialized cattle pastoralists have been identified in the prehistoric record (Rissman and Chitalwala 1990). Equally important are recent cattle mtDNA studies(5 ref.s) indicating that South Asia is one of two regions where cattle were domesticated. [...] Indeed, the academic investment in this hypothesis is so great that the distinguished scholar Colin Renfrew (1987) opts to distort the archaeological record rather than to challenge it. Failing to identify archaeological evidence for such a migration in the European post-Neolithic periods, Renfrew argues instead for an IE/Aryan human migration associated with the spread of food production economies from ANATOLIA. In doing so, he ignores critical archaeological data from Southwest Asia (Lamberg-Karlovsky 1988) and South Asia (Shaffer 1990) ..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Nov 10 11:27:21 1998 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 12:27:21 +0100 Subject: Fritz Staal on meaning of ritual Message-ID: <161227042551.23782.12814518696611228450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm looking for substantial criticism on Fritz Staal's theory on the meaning of rituals. By substantial I mean elaborate articles or books. Thanks, Axel Michaels From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Nov 10 20:28:54 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 12:28:54 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042568.23782.3110529433502241510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C.R. Selvakumar wrote: > > * > I was curious about the animate/inanimate because Sumerian > has this (A-I)feature and Tamil and some of the indian languages > have this feature, Hello Selvaa, could you specify the Indian languages that you know of that have A-I categories? I know they exist in the Munda languages. Are they present in other Dravidian languages also? Thanks, Paul Kekai Manansala From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Nov 10 19:27:13 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 14:27:13 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042566.23782.7412757479044105596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * *"C.R. Selvakumar" wrote: * *[my explanation of how different Hittite is..] *> How was Hittite then classified as IE ? * *Because other things are not different. Hittite *has* a nominative *in -s, acc. in -n (< -m), plural in -es, verbal endings -mi, -si, *-ti, etc. What put Hrozny on the track of Hittite as an IE language *was the word , which means "water". * *As a crude measure, if we take the Swadesh list of the 100 most basic *words, we find some 13 (and a few doubtful ones) which are cognate *between Classical Greek and Hittite. Not much, but about the same as *between Classical Greek and Modern English (I don't have *Greek-Sanskrit handy, but Latin-Sanskrit is about 45 matches). Thanks for your explanation. Can you please contrast the features of syntax ? Are there any better lists than Swadesh 100? I remember that there was a list of 1000. * *> What are the other *> IE languages which don't have the gender but *> have animate/inanimate ? * *Well, animate and inanimate are genders too, grammatically speaking. *What happened after the split-off of Hittite, is that the other *languages divided the animate gender into "masculine" and "feminine" *words, which resulted in a 3-gender system (masc., fem. and inanimate *(neuter)). It is tempting to see that in the context of a *"masculinization" of society, but I doesn't necessarily follow. Interesting. Is it an accepted view that animate/inanimate(A-I) classification is *prior* to the 'evolution' of the three genders? I was curious about the animate/inanimate because Sumerian has this (A-I)feature and Tamil and some of the indian languages have this feature, but not many IE languages seem to have this feature. Now, of course, English and a few other modern IE languages are 'evolving into' this state of 'losing masculine/feminine gender', gramatically speaking, I don't know how many IE languages have (or had) this animate/inanimate feature. Thanks for your remarks, Selvaa * *======================= *Miguel Carrasquer Vidal *mcv at wxs.nl *Amsterdam * From strnad at SITE.CAS.CZ Tue Nov 10 15:02:05 1998 From: strnad at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jaroslav Strnad) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 16:02:05 +0100 Subject: Hindi in the net Message-ID: <161227042558.23782.4367354641647183227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hindi from Japan: Hindi Electronic Dictionary http://www3.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~kmach/hnd_la-e.htm Hindi Full-Text Search (Premcand=B4s Godan) http://www3.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~kmach/kw_gdn-e.htm Hindi from India: Indian Media : Regional Languages: http://www.mahesh.com/india/media/regional.html#hindi (on-line Hindi journals and newspapers) Hindustan - Search India http://hindustan.net/ Hindi from US: Hindi Links http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/hindilinks.html Of course, there may be more. Regards, PhDr.Jaroslav Strnad Oriental Institute, Czech Academy of Sciences,Prague strnad at orient.cas.cz From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Nov 11 00:40:19 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 16:40:19 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042589.23782.5920766376571679420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > "N. Ganesan" wrote: > > >Catal Hayuk in Anatolia is not the only site > >where Agriculture originated. Mehrgarh in > >Indus valley culture may have done it even earlier. > >See Shaffer below. Mehrgarh has nothing to do with > >IE languages. > > Of course not. Agriculture (of the wheat/barley kind) originated > neither in Catal Huyuk nor in Mehrgarh. The earliest sites so far > are in the "fertile crescent", from Palestine through Syria, Southern > Turkey and Northern Iraq to Western Iran. Presumably these earliest > farmers spoke Semitic, Sumerian and Elamite languages (and possibly > some others that have left no record). Maybe, but I would think at least pre-Semitic and pre-Sumerian. Sumerians by their own accord came by sea from Dilmun, although I know there is some controversy surrounding this subject. Semitic speakers probably came only around 5,000 to 4,000 BCE (using biological anthropology as a guide). Using the migrations occurred after the change of monsoons in the Sahara, it would seem the first evidence of AA speakers in Palestine is associated with the early wavy-handled pottery. The Elamites, however, might well be related linguistically to these early farmers. > Farming later spread NW into > Anatolia (Catal Huyuk) and Europe, SW into Egypt, Sudan and North > Africa and East into Iran and India (Mehrgarh), but it was not the > languages of the original farmers that spread, but rather those of > peoples that had been on the periphery of the initial agricultural > zone (Proto-Indo-Europeans? Proto-Dravidians? Proto-Egyptians?). Again, we come to the problem of whether the spread of agriculture requires demographic changes. Given the case in Europe, didn't the pre-IE languages have non-IE terms for agriculture? This would indicate the first people to spread agriculture to Europe were pre-IE folk like the Etruscans (and possibly the Basques, Iberians and Picts.) Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 10 17:05:30 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 17:05:30 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <199811101622.LAA21390@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227042562.23782.12808485838386621979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote: [my explanation of how different Hittite is..] > How was Hittite then classified as IE ? Because other things are not different. Hittite *has* a nominative in -s, acc. in -n (< -m), plural in -es, verbal endings -mi, -si, -ti, etc. What put Hrozny on the track of Hittite as an IE language was the word , which means "water". As a crude measure, if we take the Swadesh list of the 100 most basic words, we find some 13 (and a few doubtful ones) which are cognate between Classical Greek and Hittite. Not much, but about the same as between Classical Greek and Modern English (I don't have Greek-Sanskrit handy, but Latin-Sanskrit is about 45 matches). > What are the other > IE languages which don't have the gender but > have animate/inanimate ? Well, animate and inanimate are genders too, grammatically speaking. What happened after the split-off of Hittite, is that the other languages divided the animate gender into "masculine" and "feminine" words, which resulted in a 3-gender system (masc., fem. and inanimate (neuter)). It is tempting to see that in the context of a "masculinization" of society, but I doesn't necessarily follow. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 10 21:02:23 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 21:02:23 +0000 Subject: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042572.23782.7780168708105181853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Interesting. Is it an accepted view that animate/inanimate(A-I) classification is *prior* to the 'evolution' of the three genders? I was curious about the animate/inanimate because Sumerian has this (A-I)feature and Tamil and some of the indian languages have this feature, but not many IE languages seem to have this feature. Now, of course, English and a few other modern IE languages are 'evolving into' this state of 'losing masculine/feminine gender', gramatically speaking, I don't know how many IE languages have (or had) this animate/inanimate feature. An interesting feature of the Indo-European gender system is the fact that the ending for feminine nom is the same as the nom/voc/acc ending of the neutre plural. This has spawned the theory that the ending originally simply meant a collective (like -heit in German Mensch-heit). Notice that neutre nominative plurals in Greek have their verbs in the singular! This would mean that these suffixes were reinterpreted, giving either neutre plurals or feminine singulars: e.g. Latin bona (fem. good) or bona (neut. plur. good things). There is no need to assume a sexist attitude developing in society. Today, Norwegian, German and the slavonic languages have three genders, the Romance languages have the feminine and the masculine, Danish and Dutch have the masculine and the neutre, which in a way is reverting to the old animate/inanimate system. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2252 bytes Desc: not available URL: From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Tue Nov 10 20:26:00 1998 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 21:26:00 +0100 Subject: Fritz Staal on meaning of ritual Message-ID: <161227042579.23782.18101867270566959825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ich weiss nicht, ob meine Rezension in der OLZ Ihre Kriterien erf?llt. Axel Michaels schrieb: > I'm looking for substantial criticism on Fritz Staal's theory on the > meaning of rituals. By substantial I mean elaborate articles or books. > > Thanks, > > Axel Michaels From info at TICONSOLE.NL Tue Nov 10 20:43:32 1998 From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 21:43:32 +0100 Subject: RERE: Paired Horse and bladibla Message-ID: <161227042575.23782.12013586931818015877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: Today, Norwegian, German and the slavonic languages have three genders, the Romance languages have the feminine and the masculine, Danish and Dutch have the masculine and the neutre, which in a way is reverting to the old animate/inanimate system. Hoho, as a speaker of Dutch I lived under the impression that we also had feminine? Not visible in the determiner, but for example, in the relative possessive pronoun, de man wiens auto gestolen was (litt: the man whose car stolen was) de vrouw wier auto gestolen was (litt: the woman whose car stolen was) Especially in the older language this is clearly visible, and still so in a number of fixed expressions where the old case-system has been preserved. But of course there is a clear trend to simplifiy things (back?) into a gender/neuter system. Sandra van der Geer Leiden, NL info at ticonsole.nl http://www.ticonsole.nl/books From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 10 21:58:20 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 21:58:20 +0000 Subject: SV: RERE: Paired Horse and bladibla Message-ID: <161227042577.23782.15092463806420981817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: Today, Norwegian, German and the slavonic languages have three genders, the Romance languages have the feminine and the masculine, Danish and Dutch have the masculine and the neutre, which in a way is reverting to the old animate/inanimate system. Sandra van der Geer wrote: Hoho, as a speaker of Dutch I lived under the impression that we also had feminine? Not visible in the determiner, but for example, in the relative possessive pronoun, de man wiens auto gestolen was (litt: the man whose car stolen was) de vrouw wier auto gestolen was (litt: the woman whose car stolen was) Especially in the older language this is clearly visible, and still so in a number of fixed expressions where the old case-system has been preserved. But of course there is a clear trend to simplifiy things (back?) into a gender/neuter system. Dear Sandra, what can I say? It is several years since I read Dutch, and I never really had time to make an indepth study - I only got as far as to be able to read De Telegraph. What I really had in mind was the gender of the nouns, I can't remember that you have anything like the German system with "der Mann - die Frau - das Auto". But nevertheless: I stand corrected and ask humbly for forgiveness for spreading such false doctrines about Dutch. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2283 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 10 22:42:58 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 22:42:58 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <36488B38.770D4D2B@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227042581.23782.5095234880038968380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Given that a large corpus of Greek words are thought to be non-IE in >origin, how many of the 13 are found in other IE languages? How many >words are cognate between Hittite and Hindi or English? First of all, my previous message was in error. The matches between Hittite and Greek were based on a partial Swadesh list, with only 50 items. The score of 45 for the Latin-Sanskrit list should be halved to compare it with the Hitt/Grk score. There are many non-IE words in Greek, but hardly any in the basic vocabulary. I suspect there may be three or four in the whole 100 Swadesh list. I'll do Hittite compared with English, Classical Greek and Sankrit. XX valid Swadesh match (XX) cognate, but not the usual word for this item [hard to say in the case of Skt. of course] [XX] other cognate word with different meaning {XX} unclear relationship -- no related item (as far as I know) Hittite English Greek Sanskrit (amm)uk {I} {ego:} {aham} (I) zik (thou) su tvam (YOU) we:s we {heemeis} vayam (WE) ka:- [he] (ekeinos) -- (THIS) apa:- -- -- -- (THAT) kuis who tis ka- (WHO) kuit what ti ki-m (WHAT) natta not -- na (NOT) humant- -- -- -- (ALL) mekki- (much) -- -- (MANY) asma:- ? -- {heis} -- (ONE) ta:- two duo dva:(u) (TWO) salli- -- -- -- (BIG) taluki- long (dolikhos) di:rgha- (LONG) tepu- -- -- -- (SMALL) atuhsas -- {anthro:pos} -- (MAN) eshar -- (ear) asrk (BLOOD) hastai- -- osteon asthi- (BONE) harsan -- -- -- (HEAD) istamana- -- -- -- (EAR) sakuwa- [see] -- -- (EYE) ais- -- -- a:s- (MOUTH) lala- -- -- -- (TONGUE) kenu knee gonu ja:nu (KNEE) kissar- -- kheir {hasta-} (HAND) kir heart kardia {hrd} (HEART) eku-/aku- [island] -- -- (DRINK) et-/at- eat esthioo ad- (EAT) (a)u(s)- -- -- -- (SEE) istamass- -- -- -- (HEAR) s(a/e)kk- [seek] [he:geomai] -- (HEAR) ses-/sas- -- -- -- (SLEEP) akk- -- -- -- (DIE) kwen-/kun- -- (theino:) han(a)- (KILL) huwai- [wind] [ae:si] [va:-] (WALK) uwa- -- -- -- (COME) ki- -- keimai s'i:- (LIE) es- {sit} {-heemai} a:s- (SIT) ar- [run] (ornumi) (rno-) (STAND) pa:i- -- -- -- (GIVE) te-/tar- -- -- -- (SAY) watar water hudo:r (udan-) (WATER) heu- -- -- -- (RAIN) tekan [-groom] khtho:n ks.am (EARTH) pahhuwar fire pu:r -- (FIRE) kalmara- ? -- -- -- (MOUNTAIN) ispant- -- -- -- (NIGHT) newa- new (neos) nava- (NEW) assu- -- (eu) -- (GOOD) lama:n {name} {onoma} {na:ma-} (NAME) 50 12 + (2) 13 + (7) 17 + (2) ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 10 22:53:47 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 22:53:47 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <199811101927.OAA23865@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227042583.23782.10071204571174752353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote: > Are there any better lists than Swadesh 100? > I remember that there was a list of 1000. There is a list of 200 items, which Swadesh later reduced to 100. Since the object of the list is to include only basic vocabulary (assumed to be more resistant to change), less is better. > Interesting. Is it an accepted view that animate/inanimate(A-I) > classification is *prior* to the 'evolution' of the three genders? Generally yes. When Hittite was just discovered, it used to be thought that Hittite had simply lost all the feautures that it lacked compared to other IE languages. Now it's becoming increasingly clear that this is not always the case, and that Hittite generally represents a more archaic state of affairs. I think in the case of feminine gender it is almost universally accepted that early PIE was like Hittite in this respect (animate/inanimate), and the other languages have innovated, by creating a feminine gender. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Nov 11 04:09:20 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 23:09:20 -0500 Subject: Fritz Staal on meaning of ritual Message-ID: <161227042596.23782.17046015679675883567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frits Staal's theory of ritual has received a great deal of attention, though mot primarily by Vedicists. I have not seen all of the "substantial" criticism [e.g., Harry Falk's Rezension in OLZ, which I'm sure would be of interest]. But here are a few references that may be of use: Hans Penner [a specialist in ritual studies, but no Vedicist] has written a negative [and not very successful critique] "Language, Ritual and Meaning" in *Numen* 32 [1985]. I know that it is admired, though. You will find extensive discussion of Staal's theory scattered throughout Catherine Bell's very theoretical book *Ritual Theory, Ritual Practice* [Oxford Univ. Press, 1992]. Likewise, a non-Vedicist. Allan Grapard, Burton Mack, and Ivan Strenski [all non-Vedicists] led a symposium [entitled, as I recall, "Symposium: Ritual as Such", on Staal's book *Rules Without Meaning* in 1990 or 1991, the proceedings of which were published in *Religion* 21 [1991], along with a response by Staal. This is recommended as the most detailed response that I know of. Finally, you will find a a fairly elaborate response [25 pages] by a Vedicist [myself] entitled "On Mantras and Frits Staal" in *India and Beyond: Aspects of Literature, Meaning, Ritual and Thought: Essays in Honour of Frits Staal* [edited by Dick van der Meij, published jointly by Kegan Paul Intl. & the IIAS, 1997]. This article, you might guess, is a friendly critique, but a critique nevertheless, by a former student of Professor Staal. There is incidental reference to Staal's theory, here and there, among Vedicists [cf. especially J.C. Heesterman, passim], but I know of no book-length, or otherwise substantial, treatment of Staal's theory in itself. Hope this helps. George Thompson >I'm looking for substantial criticism on Fritz Staal's theory on the >meaning of rituals. By substantial I mean elaborate articles or books. > >Thanks, > >Axel Michaels From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 10 23:11:08 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 23:11:08 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <19981110194408.8946.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042585.23782.17364638334852283069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >Catal Hayuk in Anatolia is not the only site >where Agriculture originated. Mehrgarh in >Indus valley culture may have done it even earlier. >See Shaffer below. Mehrgarh has nothing to do with >IE languages. Of course not. Agriculture (of the wheat/barley kind) originated neither in Catal Huyuk nor in Mehrgarh. The earliest sites so far are in the "fertile crescent", from Palestine through Syria, Southern Turkey and Northern Iraq to Western Iran. Presumably these earliest farmers spoke Semitic, Sumerian and Elamite languages (and possibly some others that have left no record). Farming later spread NW into Anatolia (Catal Huyuk) and Europe, SW into Egypt, Sudan and North Africa and East into Iran and India (Mehrgarh), but it was not the languages of the original farmers that spread, but rather those of peoples that had been on the periphery of the initial agricultural zone (Proto-Indo-Europeans? Proto-Dravidians? Proto-Egyptians?). Also, there have been independent moves towards agriculture, in SE Asia (rice), N. China (millet), C. America (maize) and possibly in other places, although the Near East still seems to be the earliest such development. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Nov 10 23:25:33 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 23:25:33 +0000 Subject: SV: RERE: Paired Horse and bladibla In-Reply-To: <01BE0CF5.67550AE0@ti34a21-0008.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042587.23782.16434758283858522281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Sandra van der Geer wrote: > >Hoho, as a speaker of Dutch I lived under the impression that we also had feminine? Not visible in the determiner, but for example, in the relative possessive pronoun, > >de man wiens auto gestolen was (litt: the man whose car stolen was) >de vrouw wier auto gestolen was (litt: the woman whose car stolen was) > >Especially in the older language this is clearly visible, and still so in a number of fixed expressions where the old case-system has been preserved. > >But of course there is a clear trend to simplifiy things (back?) into a gender/neuter system. > >Dear Sandra, what can I say? It is several years since I read Dutch, and I never really had time to make an indepth study - I only got as far as to be able to read De Telegraph. What I really had in mind was the gender of the nouns, I can't remember that you have anything like the German system with "der Mann - die Frau - das Auto". That is true. We have only "de" (animate) and "het" (inanimate) words, even if the dictionaries still mark "de"-words as m. or f. But the problem is that the personal pronouns still make a three-way distinction (hij/zijn zij/haar het/zijn ~ he/his she/her it/its), so when a pronoun has to refer back to a "de"-word, and sexual gender does not apply, people are often at a loss which pronoun to use. In general, little attention is paid to what the dictionaries say, and "hij/zijn" is commonly used, excepty for abstract words, which tend to be referred to as "zij/haar". It's not uncommon for city dwellers to use the pronoun "hij" when referring to a cow. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From hart at POLBOX.COM Tue Nov 10 22:28:05 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 23:28:05 +0100 Subject: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <01BE0CED.AE3F0260@ti34a21-0008.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042594.23782.1620675171994373060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:02 10.11.98 +-100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Today, Norwegian, German and the slavonic languages have three genders< Polish has THREE genders in Singular (masculine, feminine, neuter), and TWO in Plural (masculine-personal and feminine-nonpersonal). [I'm afraid this is the kind of information that could cause an invasion of angry feminist activist(esse)s on my country.] Regards, A. Karp From hart at POLBOX.COM Tue Nov 10 23:43:45 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 00:43:45 +0100 Subject: On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep In-Reply-To: <3647E69F.3D3E9EDA@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042591.23782.11175287834498932239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:09 10.11.98 -0500, Mark Hubey wrote: >I don't know if you read the two long posts in which you could see >(1) a short list/example of Sumero-Turkic cognates and (2) a shorter >list of Etruscan-Turk parallels. Much of whatever you need can be >found from that point on. I read the long post on Sumero-Turkic cognates some time ago and have re-read it again. The Etruscan-Sumerian kind of lost itself in cyber-space. I'd be grateful if you sent it to me again. ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ >If Turan is Etruscan (and/or if Etruscan may be related to Sumerian, >or proto-Euphratic) then we have a reasonable grounds for looking for >roots of Turan in proto-Euphratic (and thus Turkic) or in Sumerian. I have no problem with this statement. If it were formulated so in earlier exchanges, I am certain no one would have protested: you would have had reasonable objections. Sometimes strong word (like <>) or the use of Indicative, where Subjunctive is really meant, instead of helping communication might effectively block it. ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ >I merely pointed out that 'tu' or 'tuw' is the root in Turkic having >to do with 'birth', and 'begetting'. Almost miraculously, 'tuwurghan' >or 'tuurghan' really does mean 'she that gives birth'. Now it could be >that 'tu' might be related to a long set of words having to do with >sex, penis, pointed objects, etc. But after 5,000 years anything can >happen to a language. If we had a dictionary of Etruscan, Sumerian >and Turkic from 3,000 BC until now, say, every 100 years, we would >not have any problems, but since we don't have it we have only partial >data to go on. It may be of interest to you (and to the other list members), that Dr. Jan Braun, Professor Emeritus from the Ancient East Studies Deptt, University of Warsaw, has been working since some time on a comparison of Sumerian and Old (VII-VIII C AD) Tibetan. He has already identified over 300 common lexemes. His list covers basic vocabulary, mostly verbs and it looks like it's going to grow. His first publication on the topic is in Polish; but he plans publishing his work in a book form in near future, and that is going to be in English. If there is anyone interested in his present work (or earlier - on the genetic relationship of Elamitic and Dravidian), I could post Prof. Braun's address (he doesn't use e-mail). _____________________________________________________________________________ >> And: pardon me, that aside with sheep was not at all funny, especially >> considering that it also was entirely without value as an argument or >> illustration. > >I thought at the time it was quite appropriate since from my point of >view the original post did not sound much like anything except heckling >from an ignorant high-school dropout street bum. There are PhDs and maybe physicists >here (and probably) many engineers and computer scientistsand I can assure you that >most of them understand quite well what distance, space, metric space, probability >theory, diffusion equation, etc mean. Under the circumstances some ignorant laut >making fun of a serious (and obviously something to him totally incomprehensible) >concept/idea deserves an appropriate (equal and opposite) remark. No - my feeling is it wasn't approppriate at all. Dominique Thillaud protested when you said <>. Within her discipline the lines dividing virgin-, nymph- and wife-goddesses are anchored in anthropological classificatory systems - and these should be approached with as much care and respect as any other system existing in the framework of human culture. If someone mixed up in your presence the concepts of (e.g. compound, total and conditional) probability, you would surely try to straighten things up, which would be tantamount to defending the form of your discipline. I believe Dominique's insistence on defending hers was as much justified. I admire her for having the courage to start writing in English. >Anyone is free to disagree. How you disagree does matter. >Best Regards, >Mark Regards, A. Karp From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Nov 11 08:07:32 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 03:07:32 -0500 Subject: On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep Message-ID: <161227042597.23782.6355691063412113290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > > I read the long post on Sumero-Turkic cognates some time ago and have > re-read it again. The Etruscan-Sumerian kind of lost itself in cyber-space. > I'd be grateful if you sent it to me again. It's attached to the end of email. > If it were formulated so in earlier exchanges, I am certain no one would > have protested: you would have had reasonable objections. Sometimes strong > word (like <>) or the use of Indicative, where Subjunctive is really > meant, instead of helping communication might effectively block it. One only points out what historical linguistics has agreed upon, that of 'regular sound change'. Those who read it have to reach the standard conclusions or else argue why the stds of linguistics need change. > It may be of interest to you (and to the other list members), that Dr. Jan > Braun, Professor Emeritus from the Ancient East Studies Deptt, University > of Warsaw, has been working since some time on a comparison of Sumerian and > Old (VII-VIII C AD) Tibetan. He has already identified over 300 common > lexemes. His list covers basic vocabulary, mostly verbs and it looks like > it's going to grow. His first publication on the topic is in Polish; but he > plans publishing his work in a book form in near future, and that is going > to be in English. Some of us should be looking forward to it. I will be. If there is anyone interested in his present work (or > earlier - on the genetic relationship of Elamitic and Dravidian), I could > post Prof. Braun's address (he doesn't use e-mail). Maybe you can post the results here :-) > Dominique Thillaud protested when you said < of fertility>>. Within her discipline the lines dividing virgin-, nymph- > and wife-goddesses are anchored in anthropological classificatory systems - > and these should be approached with as much care and respect as any other > system existing in the framework of human culture. My apologies to her. I guess I got upset at someone else and she happened to be there. I did not even notice the name, but then she might have gotten more upset that I treated her differently because she is female. > If someone mixed up in your presence the concepts of (e.g. compound, total > and conditional) probability, you would surely try to straighten things up, > which would be tantamount to defending the form of your discipline. I > believe Dominique's insistence on defending hers was as much justified. At this time range/difference, a semantic shift of that magnitude is not significant if we compare it to what has happened to some other words in, for example, IE languages. > > I admire her for having the courage to start writing in English. I was not aware of anything of this sort. I just got on the list. I also admire her posting in English, now that you have explained it. I hope she accepts my apology, if she is still on the list. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey If Etruscan was one of the pre-IE languages and if IE and AA were created as a long-term mixture then it would not be impossible. Some Etruscan words could have sneaked into Latin and are probably unrecognizable. But there are remarkable parallels between Turkic and Etruscan. I think that some people (possibly Africans, maybe Nilo-Saharans) might have been getting shoved around or were moving around in the Mediterranean region around the time of the formation of IE and AA, and the Etruscan and Turkic parallels are due to that. Of course, Etruscans melted into Romans and the ones in Asia melted into the mass of peoples there. But look at these remarkable and highly unlikely occurrences. 1. Etruscans were called Tursi/Tusci by Romans. Nobody knows where the name 'Turk' really comes from. 2. Etruscans called themselves Rasenna or Rashna. Asena or Ashina was the name of the Tribe/Clan that produced Royalty for Turks. (Nasili(Hittite) is likely a cognate of this word.) 3. The River Tiber was where the Etruscans had their iron mines. Turkish legends tell of their discovery of iron. The early 'Turks' were either a tribe specializing in iron-working or were iron-workers. Tibira is Sumerian for iron and 'temir' is Turkic for iron. (Some years ago, and this is very significant, there was a report that the Africans (east africans) had already been using the "Bessemer process" of creating high-grade steel centuries before it became known in the west after the Industrial Revolution. I might have read a report that iron might have been worked in East Africa very early, but I am not sure.) Elteber was a Turkic title. I suspect this should be read as Teber-el and referred to something like the local geophysicist who was in charge of iron-finding and iron-making. 4. Etruscan legends tell of being descended from a she-wolf. Turkic legends tell of being descended from a she-wolf. Herodotus tells of people in 'Scyhia' turning to wolves although he does not believe it. The werewolf story is today still an East-European myth. 5. The chroniclers report that the Turks had a custom of seizing the king and threatening to kill them, and forcing him to blurt out in fear how many years he will rule. The concept of divinity for the king is not there. The African tribes (Nuer? and others) had a similar custom of killing the king after his appointed time was up. Being king was not such a nice thing. BTW, 'er' apparently means "man", for example in "Nu-er". Other words like this can be found in Lahovary, and more on Africa can be found in Diop. 6. The Etruscan goddess of love/fertility was Turan. Turan is always associate with Turks, but people think Iranians named them. But if Troy is also from "tur" and Turan shows up in Etruria, and since "tuw" in Turkic has to do with 'giving birth, and begetting" and in fact "tuurghan' means (she that gives birth), and since 'tud' is also a root found in Sumerian having to do with birth and begetting, it is pointless to argue this incessant Iranianism. Obviously Iranians invented their myths (and Tur and Iraj and other sons) to explain the peoples of the area like the ME myths of Shem and Ham, etc. 7. Nobody knows what Tarchon was to the Etruscans but it figures prominently. The Tarkhan in Turkic history show up in the plural as Tarkhat (a notable non-Turkic plural formation) and they are leaders and kings. One also finds Tarkhunza in Anatolia. Who knows? 8. The few words of Etruscans like tul (stone),or qutu (vase), clan (son), ril (age) easily have Turkic cognates, and some of these cognates match Chuvash (the lone l~r Turkic language found only in the west). There is more, but this is time to quit and get back to some real work. PS. It is obvious that most IEanists never consider peoples other than IEans. Mostly that is because they do not know these languages. That is one of the disadvantages of specialization. This is why mailing lists where free flow of information is allowed is so good for everyone. I especially join such lists so I can get relevant info from the experts in their own fields. > Many people explain the spread of agriculture through demic diffusion > originating somewhere in Syro-Palestine or Mesopotamia. I'm sure if you > can put a language tag, but the thrust seems more toward peoples > like the Etruscans, Basques, Picts, etc. That is, people before IE > migrations. If you have known people who know several languages but were not good at any of them, you will note that they readily mix both lexemes and syntax from several languages as they see fit. People like this are usually formally illiterate. This is probably how complete new languages can be created over several short centuries if the conditions are right. > Well, the substratum could come from extinct languages that, unlike > Etruscan, were not literate. Or they were literate and have not left > traces that have been found. I don't think anyone would suggest that > Germanic and Slavic are "pure" languages free of any non-IE influence. > Certainly there are at least some Finno-Ugrian influences even in the > oldest examples of these languages. For some reason nobody I asked has been able to give any reason for this, which I discovered quite accidentally since my knowledge of Russian consists of about 100 words. karinca > sarancha kat > soid kaplak/kapak > sapokh kirk/kirik > sorug ko"pek/ko"bek >sabaka There is probably more, but I don't know any Russian. We have the unusual /sarik/ 'sheep' in Tatar which then is from /kar/ 'sheep' in Uralic. Many more parallels can be found with Dravidian in Lahovary. So all the proponents of "regular sound correspondence" should tell us what to make of this. Does this point to a very early contact between Turkic and Slavic speakers? What time would that be? Is that say, 2,000 BC? From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 11 13:44:32 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 05:44:32 -0800 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042614.23782.17791111395931751596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<<<<<< Admittedly, the common vocabulary for wheeled transport is a problem for my theory (not as much as for Renfrew's version, of course). If wheeled transport was invented c. 3500 BC, there is still a gap of two millennia between my date for PIE breakup and the wheel. There is of course the possibility that future archaeological finds may push the date a bit further back [we are dealing with perishable wooden, non-metallic, artifacts after all], but it seems unlikely that wheeled transport existed before 4000 BC, and 5500 BC is too much to hope for. But at the same time, what I am arguing for is an early Indo-European-speaking area which had not yet expanded into its present area (France, Great Britain & Ireland, Italy, Spain, Central Asia, Iran, N. India had not yet been Indo-Europeanized by 3500 BC). We can roughly compare the area occupied by IE between 5500 and 3500 with the present area of the Romance languages, and likewise the linguistic distance between the IE languages at the time (Romance is some 2000 years old). Now there are plenty of examples of tecnical vocabulary that has spread across the Romance area since the fall of the Roman Empire, which might be confused for original Proto-Romance (i.e. Latin) words is we didn't have Latin to know they weren't. >>>>>>>> Two important factors can be given consideration while comparing "Romance Language area" to PIE area: 1) Increase in mobility in the Romance language area. The Roman empire made that improvement. The roads and bridges (wonder of the ancient world with true arches) built by Roman engineers. The number of wagons, boats, chariots and so on increased a lot. 2) Increase in communication by Writing. People could read the common Roman script throughout the Romance language area. These two factors gave rise to a communications revolution and may be the reason why Romance languages are mutually understandable in that wide area for this long time. These two factors are absent in the Late Common IE area. Hence, for the wheeled wagon transport common vocabulary to develop, the Late Common IE will be in much more compact area compared to Romance language area. No writing and less mobility makes the Common IE in a small area around 3500 B.C. (Wheels are found only in and after 3300 BC). What about my thinking on a possible scenario? (after Dr. Vidal's posts, esp. Hittite, I read Macqueen's The Hittites also) Proto-Hittites left for Anatolia around 3500 B.C. There is 2000 years to develop Hittite. Indo-Greeks left for their destinations around 3000 B.C. The first literatures in Greek is 8th century BC (Homer) and in Sanskrit is 1000 BC (cf. recent Indology postings). There is 2000 years for the Greek or Sanskrit literature to develop. Also, this scenario allows for making Hittite the aunt of the sisters - Greek and Sanskrit. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Nov 11 11:34:16 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 06:34:16 -0500 Subject: Linguistic fights: Sanskrit vs Tamil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042610.23782.13421565996952080195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Folks, Here is an article from today's Times of India: Madhav Deshpande TIMES OF INDIA Wednesday 11 November 1998 Lingua franca of Tamil gods: Sanskrit or Tamil By Sudha G Tilak The Times of India News Service CHENNAI: What do the gods in Tamil Nadu temples want to hear from their devotees? ``Only Tamil,'' say Dravidian ideologues and Tamil scholars.``Nothing but Sanskrit,'' contend saffron groups. The issue heated up recently with petitions and counter-petitions being filed in the Chennai High Court. In the first week of October, president of the Hindu Temples' Protection Committee V S Sri Kumar filed a writ petition in the high court seeking to restrain the state government from interfering in the temple rituals. He argued that though Sanskrit was the language prescribed in the agama (mode of worship) texts, the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Act (HR&CE) secretary under the orders of the state government had directed that pujas and archanas in temples be conducted only in Tamil. This, he said was in violation of Articles 25 and 26 of the Constitution which stated that rituals and mantras could not be changed. Following his writ, the Madras High Court led by Chief Justice M S Liberhan issued a notice to the HR & CE secretary on October 15. The secretary had earlier claimed that there was no compulsion to perform pujas only in Tamil. On October 30, Pazha Karrupiah, a social worker made a counter plea in the high court that Sanskrit as the mode of chanting mantras was redundant as it was not understood by many, including Brahmins who since long conducted prayers in Tamil and Sanskrit. Tamil scholars point out that the agamas prescribe Tamil and 18 other Indian languages as a means of worship. Karuppiah contended in his petition that by insisting on Sanskrit, Mr Sri Kumar was giving the impression that the gods knew only Sanskrit and hence all other languages were inferior. Adding fuel to the court battles, a day later at a public meeting in Salem, state minister for Tamil culture and language M Tamilkudimaghan said the state needed a god who `listened' to Tamil prayers and there was no place for those who did not want the Tamil mode of worship. ``It is important that the government concentrates on solving problems like caste clashes rather than decide on the people's mode of worship,'' says L Ganesan, district secretary of the BJP. Asks Cho Ramaswamy, political commentator: ``If those using Sanskrit to worship in temples are asked to leave the state, will the minister ask Allah to leave since mosques conduct prayers in Arabic?'' Says Rama Gopalan, president of the Hindu Munnani: ``The DMK's language policy is now being thrust upon the temples, following their long-standing anti-north, anti-god tenets. God understands all languages, even those of the dumb. Hence the choice should be of the people's.'' ``Devotees should have the choice to conduct worship in traditional or non-traditional mode. A secular government has no business to dictate how devotees should act in religious matters,'' reiterates Mr Cho Ramaswamy. Ironically, Tamil and Sanskrit are known to have links in their structure and growth. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Nov 11 09:18:31 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 09:18:31 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: RERE: Paired Horse and bladibla Message-ID: <161227042604.23782.14424932072820547561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Sandra, what can I say? It is several years since I read Dutch, and I never really had time to make an indepth study - I only got as far as to be able to read De Telegraph. What I really had in mind was the gender of the nouns, I can't remember that you have anything like the German system with "der Mann - die Frau - das Auto". Sandra van der Geer wrote: That is true. We have only "de" (animate) and "het" (inanimate) words, even if the dictionaries still mark "de"-words as m. or f. But the problem is that the personal pronouns still make a three-way distinction (hij/zijn zij/haar het/zijn ~ he/his she/her it/its), so when a pronoun has to refer back to a "de"-word, and sexual gender does not apply, people are often at a loss which pronoun to use. In general, little attention is paid to what the dictionaries say, and "hij/zijn" is commonly used, excepty for abstract words, which tend to be referred to as "zij/haar". It's not uncommon for city dwellers to use the pronoun "hij" when referring to a cow. But this is more or less the same system as in English: he/she/it, with reference to female "things" as she (e.g. the ship - "she"). In Norwegian dialects, he/she is often used with reference to inanimate objects that have male or feminine grammatical gender (e.g. "skuda" - "ho" = the ship - she), whereas "bokm?l" would use den/det in such situations: "b?ten" - "den"/"skipet" - "det", or "kua" - "den" versus dialect "kua - ho" (the cow - it/she)). But I don't suppose there is such a thing as Dutch "landsmaal"..... Best regards, Lars Martin ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2527 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at TICONSOLE.NL Wed Nov 11 08:20:56 1998 From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 09:20:56 +0100 Subject: Paired Horse and so on Message-ID: <161227042599.23782.14706762715765745901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Dear Sandra, what can I say? It is several years since I read Dutch, and I never really had time to make an >indepth study - I only got as far as to be able to read De Telegraph. What I really had in mind was the gender >of the nouns, I can't remember that you have anything like the German system with "der Mann - die Frau - >das Auto". >But nevertheless: I stand corrected and ask humbly for forgiveness for spreading such false doctrines about >Dutch. Your apologies have been accepted. And as to the nouns, indeed, the gender is not obvious; it's invisible. The only way to see it is in combination with pronouns, which clearly have gender (hij 'he', zij 'she', het 'it' and so on). By the way, next time you read Dutch, try NRC Handelsblad instead of De Telegraaf; much more educated. Sandra van der Geer Leiden, NL info at ticonsole.nl From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Nov 11 08:42:26 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 09:42:26 +0100 Subject: Thanks again Message-ID: <161227042601.23782.9040001684479191042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Thank you, everyone who provided information about the Turmeric Valley and the Arabian Sea. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Nov 11 09:57:36 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 09:57:36 +0000 Subject: Dominique Thillaud Message-ID: <161227042606.23782.7174385743102421046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp and H. M. Hubey keep referring to Dominique Thillaud as "she". I believe that last time I was in contact with Dominique, she was a man. What has happened? Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Nov 11 09:34:57 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 10:34:57 +0100 Subject: SV: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <01BE0CED.AE3F0260@ti34a21-0008.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042608.23782.582151502480124150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >An interesting feature of the Indo-European gender system is the fact that >the ending for feminine nom is the same as the nom/voc/acc ending of the >neutre plural. This has spawned the theory that the ending originally >simply meant a collective (like -heit in German Mensch-heit). Notice that >neutre nominative plurals in Greek have their verbs in the singular! This >would mean that these suffixes were reinterpreted, giving either neutre >plurals or feminine singulars: e.g. Latin bona (fem. good) or bona (neut. >plur. good things). There is no need to assume a sexist attitude >developing in society. > Isn't this one of the features that connect Indo-European with the (or some?) Semitic languages? As far as I remember, in Arabic, which has (like the Romance languages) the two genders m. and f., any inanimate, regardless whether m. or f. in singular, is grammatically (i. e. if connected with an adjective or referred to by a pronoun) treated in plural as a *feminine singular*. Best regards Georg v. Simson From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Wed Nov 11 16:27:34 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 11:27:34 -0500 Subject: Horses and chariots again. Message-ID: <161227042620.23782.2015137495398492675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Given the recent flurry of messages about the horse arguments, this may be the right time to tie a loose end: I did not elaborate on the Sanchi representations at that time, pending a reply from Sparreboom. In a separate post, I will give my letter and paraphrase Sparreboom's reply. For now, I have just a few general comments. Some philologists and archeologists seem to assume that it is a proven fact that proto-Indo-Iranians invented the classic chariot and spread out conquering everything before them, like the Mongols under Genghis Khan (BTW, Mongols lost a few battles too, notably to Egyptians.) For example, the contributions of Soviet archeologists to SAA 93 seem odd those who distrust this claim. But distrust we must, for reasons I have gone over in great detail before, and which can be found in the archives. The number of ``experts'' who claim something is no measure of truth. The simple fact that the chief exponents of steppe invention of the classic chariot reconstruct a functional `chariot' with neck yoke and central axle is proof of this. The best that can be said, IMHO, seems to be Piggot's view: The steppe cultures were part of the milieu that perfected the chariot. But it is unlikely that they invented the functional chariot as found in 15th c. BCE Near East and sprang it on an unsuspecting world. Given the complex net of features of the chariot, it is likely that it emerged over a few centuries, with experience gained in real battles. Evidence for such is lacking in the steppes. In particular, any attempts to identify PIIrs with specific steppe culture based on supposed invention of chariots remains beset by lack of convincing data. And trying to see war chariots in the impressions in Sintasha graves ignores the very real objections raised by Littuaer and Crowell. Ignoring subtleties of fields one does not specialize in is not limited to scientists. Real vehicles have to conform to laws of physics and must be constructable with available technology. Just because some archeologists and philologists are not aware of the issues will not make them go away. ------- A few random notes: `yugo-' is from the root `yeug' which is clearly an extension of `yeu'. This makes it likely that it an internal coinage. Anthony's claim that `wegh' meant `convey in a >vehicle<' sounds suspect to me. It does not have that specific a meaning in RV. What about Hittite, Greek, etc? The use of the right hand horse cannot prove inheritance. There is a clear bias against left and preference for right, not just in IE but also elsewhere. [I have also pointed out possible pragmatic reasons for why the turns were to the left. Clearly the position of the archer on the left (save.s.tha) has to be pragmatic and has nothing to do with inherited patterns.] ----- The similarities between Sintasha burials and Vedic culture are not so convincing either. The RV references given by Genning in JIES article of late 70's seem too general to point especially to Sintasha burials. The find of one case of human body and horse head cannot be compared to Dadhyanc. The former is a funerary practice while the latter is a myth. Surely no one is proposing that Dadhyanc was a real live person and that the Asvins did perform the first case of head transplant. Comparing the burial of horse and dog cannot be compared to a"svamedha: In the latter the dog is killed when the horse starts its year long wandering; the two animals are not buried together. The Sintasha burial is a clear case of burying the man's possessions with him, a practice found quite widely. The graves give evidence of burial of various animals with the dead and that sometimes horses and dogs occur together is of no more significance than of horse and sheep or sheep and cattle or any other combination. ------- Is an English translation of Kuzmina's book on IIr origins available or in the works? ------ -Nath From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Wed Nov 11 16:28:10 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 11:28:10 -0500 Subject: Math, lingusitics, fuzzy logic etc. Message-ID: <161227042622.23782.7760200920227828047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought that philology and mathematics had some affinity for each other, because of the number of mathematicians who seemed to have a done a bit of philology. H. Grassmann is perhaps the only one who is widely known. But there were others: Gauss and Carl Gustav Jacobi both studied philology as ``undergrads'' and later decided to go into math. In more recent times, there was Andre Weil, who says that he attended lectures by Jules Bloch (and Meillet?) to pass time (!). ----- And please leave mathematicians out of the list of those who try to fit everything into a one dimensional linear scale. People from other departments, especially social sciences, when on hiring committees, seem to think that we can rate people on a numerical scale and then average them. Mathematicians, in my experience, prefer to partial orders (denying the possibility of comparing every pair). ----- The same goes for limiting ourselves to metric spaces. If one metric is always enough, why do people, and not just topologists like me, study topology? What is a round ball in one metric may look like a loaf of french bread in another. And that is a minor change of metrics. Reading ``Semantics: primes and universals'' by A. Wierzbicka led me think that it is the idea of connectedness that matters for semantic evolution. Let me try to inject some Indology here. It is usually assumed that the root `yu' can mean both join and separate in RV. But the latter meaning occurs only when there is another word in ablative (the case of separation) or with the preverb `vi'. Should we use the view of modern languages to assign `yu' a semantic region of large extent or should be assign a neutral meaning, with the actual connotation to be determined by adverbs/case endings around it? How can we handle this with >one< metric? Another example is na"sati vs na"syati. Again they seem to have completely opposite meanings. But na"syati is probably to be considered a reflexive/passive used as an euphemism (obtained by powers better left unsaid). Such developments do not seem to be systamatic enough to be captured even by a metric evolving in time (but applicable to all languages over a wide area like the Old World). [There are of course may other examples of this kind, such as gam vs aa+gam, daa vs aa+daa etc. But these depend on a preverb whereas yu and na"s do not.] ---- Fuzzy logic is not the only ``new logic''. There is also ``topos logic'', where the truth values have nothing to do with numbers. Fuzzy logic may be more useful where decisions need to be made >now<. In the scholarly world, hasty decisions between competing theories is a bad idea. They tend to become dogmas which require strong evidence to dislodge, much stronger then what used in the first place to ``establish'' them. An example close to home is the common picture of the Vedic verb. This is taken from Bopp and Whitney who had other axes to grind. But people think that there is a complete system of moods of aorist and perfect and a pluperfect etc in RV. The proposal for semantic metric to be used with currently popular methods seem to be the same idea as ``data mining''. Many of us do that often, whether on WWW or on combined catalogs such as WorldCAT. I will start believing in ``automated data mining'' when these searches become easy. This thought hit me in fact when I was searching for books on data warehousing and data mining for my wife. --------------- -Nath From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Nov 11 16:57:27 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 11:57:27 -0500 Subject: Dominique Thillaud Message-ID: <161227042625.23782.14757462182244221843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Artur Karp and H. M. Hubey keep referring to Dominique Thillaud as "she". I believe that last time I was in contact with Dominique, she was a man. What has happened? I refer to her as she because Artur does :-) > Best regards, > > Lars Martin > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Nov 11 17:10:31 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 12:10:31 -0500 Subject: Horses and chariots again. Message-ID: <161227042627.23782.16116641632381086577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: > > Some philologists and archeologists seem to assume that it is a proven > fact that proto-Indo-Iranians invented the classic chariot and spread > out conquering everything before them, like the Mongols under Genghis > Khan (BTW, Mongols lost a few battles too, notably to Egyptians.) > I always have problems understanding how nomads in a treeless steppe can 1. find trees with which to create chariots 2. create smelting ovens, make bronze/iron, make tools with which to create wooden planks, spokes, axles etc > The best that can be said, IMHO, seems to be Piggot's view: The steppe > cultures were part of the milieu that perfected the chariot. But it is > unlikely that they invented the functional chariot as found in 15th c. > BCE Near East and sprang it on an unsuspecting world. Given the complex > net of features of the chariot, it is likely that it emerged over a few > centuries, with experience gained in real battles. Evidence for such is > lacking in the steppes. Nomads in history have usually had a symbiotic relationship with settled peoples. They provide cheese, milk, meat and buy the rest from settled peoples. What makes it so difficult to believe that the settled peoples built wagons especially constructed for steppe nomads? > In particular, any attempts to identify PIIrs with specific steppe > culture based on supposed invention of chariots remains beset by lack > of convincing data. And trying to see war chariots in the impressions > in Sintasha graves ignores the very real objections raised by Littuaer > and Crowell. Ignoring subtleties of fields one does not specialize in > is not limited to scientists. Real vehicles have to conform to laws of > physics and must be constructable with available technology. Just > because some archeologists and philologists are not aware of the issues > will not make them go away. This is standard reasoning it goes like this: 1. You find Greek vases etc in Spain, Italy etc. Conclusion: Greeks colonized this place. 2. YOu find Phoenician materials in Greece. Conclusion: Greeks traded with Phoenicians. I don't see any reason to believe that "Scythian" treasures were built by Scythians, any more than nomad carts were build by nomads. One has to believe that the technology has to be available to the nomads before one can believe that is true. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Nov 11 17:13:26 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 12:13:26 -0500 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup Message-ID: <161227042629.23782.16584230179857753359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Of course, in order to make my case, I must find archaeological > parallels, and indeed the significant event in the period 5500 BC ~ > 5000 BC is the spread of agriculture into Central/Western Europe > (Danubian/Linear Ware/LBK culture) and the Ukrainian steppe > (Dnepr-Donets culture). I guess I posted about the article that the Mediterranean flowed into the Black Lake and made it into the Black Sea, circa 5500 BC (?). -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From omar at HARAPPA.COM Wed Nov 11 21:23:52 1998 From: omar at HARAPPA.COM (Omar Khan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 13:23:52 -0800 Subject: Indus Valley 35mm Slides Message-ID: <161227042636.23782.17385337365011858205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is to inform those interested that for the first time images of the finest ancient Indus Valley objects in Pakistani collections are available for educational use. Shot by Dr. Mark Kenoyer (Wisconsin) and Dr. R.H. Meadow (Harvard), they provide a complete overview of the archaeological finds from the 1920's to the present. The color slides have printed captions. The slides can be seen with more details at http://www.harappabazaar.com/slides.html The slides have been a great hit at US universities. Questions can be sent to slides at harappabazaar.com. A list of slides can also be mailed to those who request it. Regards, Omar Khan -- Harappa http://www.harappa.com A Match in a Cave Omar Khan Producer From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Nov 11 12:44:37 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 13:44:37 +0100 Subject: Dominique Thillaud In-Reply-To: <01BE0D59.D307B260@ti34a26-0010.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042612.23782.7911548976963958548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:57 11.11.98 +-100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Artur Karp and H. M. Hubey keep referring to Dominique Thillaud as "she". I believe that last time I was in contact with Dominique, she was a man. What has happened? > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin _____________________________________________________________________________ Dear Dominique --- I am terribly embarrassed. The mistake is exclusively mine, not M. Hubey's. It only shows that: 1) I tend to rely too much on analogies (always feminine: Veronique, Monique); 2) Dtto on my own language's feeling for gender (Dominik-Dominika). It's obvious now that I need to go deeper into your language - which I take on as a self-appointed task. I do hope you accept my apology. Artur Karp, M.A. University of Warsaw Poland From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Nov 11 15:28:02 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 15:28:02 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <19981111134434.20738.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042616.23782.17100963804249844683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > [mobility, writing...] > These two factors gave rise to a communications > revolution and may be the reason why Romance > languages are mutually understandable in that > wide area for this long time. I'm really not sure. As a native speaker (of Spanish and Catalan), I can vouch for Romance being largely mutually understandable. Happens all the time when Spaniards meet Italians. I'm pretty sure the same goes for Slavic, having once upon a time taken part in a conversation in Russko-Polski with a certain Malgorzata and a Bulgarian guy whose name I forget. Undortunately, I don't speak any Bantu or Polynesian language, but I would think that most of those languages (time depth comparable to the 1000 ~ 2000 years of Romance and Slavic) are also largely mutually intelligible, despite the lack of Roman roads or (until recently, and Easter Island excepted) writing. I also happen to be a native speaker of Dutch, which is mutually intelligible with German and to some extent with English. But the Scandinavian languages are practically incomprehensible without study. Now we're talking about a separation (N. vs. W. Germanic) that's probably in the range of 2500 ~ 3000 years or so. Since I have no reason to assume that IE languages are in any way special, my impression is that on average the cut-off point for mutual intellegibility is around 1500 ~ 2000 years. > What about my thinking on a possible > scenario? (after Dr. Vidal's posts, > esp. Hittite, I read Macqueen's The Hittites also) > Proto-Hittites left for > Anatolia around 3500 B.C. There is > 2000 years to develop Hittite. > Indo-Greeks left for their destinations > around 3000 B.C. The first literatures > in Greek is 8th century BC (Homer) > and in Sanskrit is 1000 BC (cf. recent Indology > postings). There is 2000 years for > the Greek or Sanskrit literature > to develop. Also, this scenario allows for > making Hittite the aunt of the > sisters - Greek and Sanskrit. Yes, this is precisely the scenario suggested by Gimbutas and Mallory, and others I suppose. I can't falt out deny that it might have happened that way, but with the numbers you give, the chance that it did so is, IMHO, very small indeed from a linguistic perspective. The thing is that Greek, Armenian and Indo-Iranian, and to a lesser degree Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Italic and Tocharian, share a rather large number of *identical* developments (such as creation of a feminine gender by adding *-[o]H2, etc.). If Hittite/Anatolian left 3500 BC, and Indo-Greek separated 3000 BC, as you say, there is only 500 years for all these *shared* developments to take place, followed by 2000 years wherein Sanskrit and Greek developed their differences. In other words, and based upon my [necessarily subjective, I might say "holistic"] assessment of Hittite, Greek and Sanskrit as linguistic systems, almost everything happened in the first 500 years, and very little in the next 2000 years. It's possible, but it's not parsimonious. Hence my alternative theory that if Indo-Greek separated c. 3500 ~ 3000, then Hittite must have separated already by 5500 (and the Western languages + Tocharian somewhere in between those dates). Of course, in order to make my case, I must find archaeological parallels, and indeed the significant event in the period 5500 BC ~ 5000 BC is the spread of agriculture into Central/Western Europe (Danubian/Linear Ware/LBK culture) and the Ukrainian steppe (Dnepr-Donets culture). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Wed Nov 11 15:40:39 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 15:40:39 +0000 Subject: Fritz Staal on meaning of ritual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042618.23782.3633399105368505721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following substantial article is not a response to Staal, but I think it's worth mentioning all the same, in case you don't know of it: Alexis Sanderson's `Meaning in Tantric Ritual' published (some years after composition) in Essais sur le rituel III. Colloque du centenaire de la section des sciences religieuses de l'Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes sous la direction de: Anne-Marie Blondeau et Kristofer Schipper. Louvain/Paris: Peeters, 1995, pp.15--95. Dominic Goodall. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 12 01:11:13 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 17:11:13 -0800 Subject: The ending "Amma" for men Message-ID: <161227042644.23782.13806828718954687900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Southern India, the name "Amma" is normally used as an ending for the first names of women. However, one does see the ending "amma" for men also( examples I know mainly consist of the ending "kr*SNamA" as in the names kr*SNamA-cAri,( there is also the name kr*SNACAri, which makes me think that the name "kr*SNamAcAri is from kr*SNamA and not kr*SNa), gOpAlakr*SNamma, zivarAmakr*SNamma, EccamA( apparently a folk hero in the Rayalaseema area of Andhra Pradesh), LakshmA/Laxma( a fairly common name in Telangana as in Laxma Reddy/Laxma Goud) etc.. I would like to know if 1. Any other male names ending in "Amma". 2. The reason for this i.e. why is it that some male names have an ending that is typically feminine? ( One reason that I heard some time ago( besides the obvious "mere coincidence") is that parents, who had hitherto lost male progeny, would take a vow to bring up a male child as a female IF he survived ; as a part of the process they would give the new born male a feminine name...This would be analogous to names like nAthUrAm( rAm with a "nath"i.e. nosering) in Northern India..In addition to this, is there any other reason?.... Looking forward to your replies, Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Nov 11 18:02:28 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 18:02:28 +0000 Subject: Paired Horse and PIE breakup In-Reply-To: <3649C5B6.F171CDCA@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042631.23782.9908341008047423949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "H.M.Hubey" wrote: >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >> >> Of course, in order to make my case, I must find archaeological >> parallels, and indeed the significant event in the period 5500 BC ~ >> 5000 BC is the spread of agriculture into Central/Western Europe >> (Danubian/Linear Ware/LBK culture) and the Ukrainian steppe >> (Dnepr-Donets culture). > >I guess I posted about the article that the Mediterranean flowed into >the Black Lake and made it into the Black Sea, circa 5500 BC (?). I guess you did. But how is that relevant? There was some speculation a while ago about the flooding of the Black Sea having triggered the IE diaspora, sending massive amounts of refugees into Europe and Asia, or even to have been the source of the Near Eastern flood myths. All of which is quite silly. Population densities on the north shore of the Black Sea would have been negligible, agriculture hadn't even been fully introduced there yet. All the farmers in that part of the world were high and dry on Balkan tells. There are no movements out of the Black Sea area around 5500 BC, only movements into it a few centuries later (Dnepr-Donets culture). The event must have been highly significant for the Black Lake fish, but otherwise not terribly important for people. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Nov 11 18:10:11 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 18:10:11 +0000 Subject: Horses and chariots again. In-Reply-To: <3649C507.96C4495F@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227042633.23782.2838202951271022533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "H.M.Hubey" wrote: >This is standard reasoning it goes like this: > >1. You find Greek vases etc in Spain, Italy etc. Conclusion: Greeks >colonized this place. > >2. YOu find Phoenician materials in Greece. Conclusion: Greeks traded >with Phoenicians. Actually, it goes like this: You find Greek vases etc. in Ullastret. Conclusion: Iberians traded with Greeks. You find Phoenician materials in Cyprus. Conclusion: Phoenicians colonized this place. You find Greek vases etc. in Emporion (Ampuries) or Rhode (Roses). Conclusion: Greeks colonized this place. You find Phoenician materials in Greece. Conclusion: Greeks traded with Phoenicians. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Thu Nov 12 02:54:53 1998 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 18:54:53 -0800 Subject: The ending "Amma" for men Message-ID: <161227042651.23782.9833377635440566604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the S'rivaiSNavite AcAryas is actually called NaTatUr AmmAL . -Srini. S Krishna wrote: > In Southern India, the name "Amma" is normally used as an ending for > the first names of women. However, one does see the ending "amma" for > men also( examples I know mainly consist of the ending "kr*SNamA" as > in the names kr*SNamA-cAri,( there is also the name kr*SNACAri, which > makes me think that the name "kr*SNamAcAri is from kr*SNamA and not > kr*SNa), gOpAlakr*SNamma, zivarAmakr*SNamma, EccamA( apparently a folk > hero in the Rayalaseema area of Andhra Pradesh), LakshmA/Laxma( a fairly > common name in Telangana as in Laxma Reddy/Laxma Goud) etc.. > I would like to know if > 1. Any other male names ending in "Amma". > 2. The reason for this i.e. why is it that some male names have an > ending that is typically feminine? ( One reason that I heard some time > ago( besides the obvious "mere coincidence") is that parents, who had > hitherto lost male progeny, would take a vow to bring up a male child as > a female IF he survived ; as a part of the process they would give the > new born male a feminine name...This would be analogous to names like > nAthUrAm( rAm with a "nath"i.e. nosering) in Northern India..In > addition to this, is there any other reason?.... > > Looking forward to your replies, > Regards, > Krishna > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Nov 12 02:26:43 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 21:26:43 -0500 Subject: Frits Staal on meaning of ritual Message-ID: <161227042645.23782.9217315047702106082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A little footnote to my earlier references: I have always admired the concluding article in the collection of essays: *Mantra* edited by H. Alper [SUNY Press 1989]. Andre' Padoux: "Mantras -- What Are They?" This article, which surveys the results of the entire volume, gives an interesting response to Staal's contribution, which I think was the central article of the whole thing. And Padoux's response was the most thoughtful. GT From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Nov 12 03:02:28 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 22:02:28 -0500 Subject: Math, lingusitics, fuzzy logic etc. In-Reply-To: <199811111628.LAA09661@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227042653.23782.14865131832627077855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: > ``Semantics: primes and universals'' by A. Wierzbicka led me think that > it is the idea of connectedness that matters for semantic evolution. I have no time now but as today is a holiday, a few notes: with regard to this item and the recent discussion on semantic shift in language and in establishing sucessful etymologies, it is useful to read the long list of requirements on the semantic side in K. Hoffmann (below*). On the other hand, sound shift, since it is (by and large) a automatic phenomenon (position of speech organs), is much easier to define. *K.Hoffmann, Aufsaetze zur Indoiranistik, vol. 3, (eds. S. Glauch, R. Plath, S. Ziegler), Wiesbaden (Reichert) 1992: "Checkliste zur Aufstellung bzw. Beurteilung etymologischer Deutungen", p. 761- 766. This contains 36 items (with sub-items). > Let me try to inject some Indology here. It is usually assumed that > the root `yu' can mean both join and separate in RV. But the latter > meaning occurs only when there is another word in ablative (the case > of separation) or with the preverb `vi'. Both meanings of 'the root' yu are clearly defined by their different present tenses (and maybe one of them had an additional laryngeal, too, see Mayrhofer's new etym. dict., EWA II 403-4). In Vedic (and earlier!) we thus have TWO different roots yu: 1. Ved. yuvati "to hold on, unite" IE: new Lith. pres. tense jauju 'to mix' (cf. AV yauti 'to mix') (cf. also Avest. ni-iuuant 'uniting') 2. Ved. yuyoti "to separate, to keep off", also -sk'e- pres: yu-ccha-ti 'to keep oneself distant from..., to separate" Subj. Aor.: Ved. vi yavanta "they will separate"; cf. Avest yUtO 'separated' thus an (already Indo_Iranian) new formation > Should we use the view of > modern languages to assign `yu' a semantic region of large extent or > should be assign a neutral meaning, with the actual connotation to be > determined by adverbs/case endings around it? How can we handle this > with >one< metric? Not for Vedic .... At best, if both roots indeed did not have laryngeal, for Indo-Ir. and maybe for IE, but with which meaning then? > Another example is na"sati vs na"syati. Again they seem to have > completely opposite meanings. Again, the different *formations* indicate precisely this. But in this case, Vedic gramar intervenes: nas"ati is Subj. Aor. 'will get lost, will perish' nas"yati is present tense: 'diappears' there is another nas" 'to obtain': Pres. as"noti 'obtains' (from zero grade nas") Sub. Aor. nas"ati 'will obtain'; root aor. AnAT 'has obtained just now' The overlap is only in the subjunctive of the aor.-- which disappears as a category, luckily for all who read Epic Skt., --- soon after the RV. (Plus, many more secondary forms in later Vedic). > [There are of course may other examples of this kind, such as > gam vs aa+gam, daa vs aa+daa etc. But these depend on a preverb whereas > yu and na"s do not.] preverbs obviously have the function to diferentiate meanings, cf. Engl. get, beget, forget... All these, thus, are apples and pears not to be put into one basket. > An example close to home is the common picture of > the Vedic verb. This is taken from Bopp and Whitney who had other axes > to grind. But people think that there is a complete system of moods of > aorist and perfect and a pluperfect etc in RV. see above.... who can get rid of all those Vedic subjunctives in the aorist? I for one prefer, for the time being, to be desctribed as: marati 'he will die" (Whitney is wrong with his "he dies") instead of mriyate "he dies" (now) ... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Nov 12 03:09:15 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 22:09:15 -0500 Subject: Horses and chariots again. In-Reply-To: <199811111627.LAA09652@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227042655.23782.10611895133177044196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: > Anthony's claim that `wegh' meant `convey in a >vehicle<' sounds > suspect to me. It does not have that specific a meaning in RV. What > about Hittite, Greek, etc? The attestation in a great number of IE languages points to a rather old meaning "to take something (in a vehicle) somewhere" (terminative action), which has become durative already in (late) Proto-IE and thus made an s-aorist necessary (Vedic avaaT, subj. aor. vakS-at; Greek (dial.) eFekse, Latin vexi, etc.): Present: Vedic vahati 'drives', Avest. vazaiti 'drives', Greek (dial.) FeksetO 'must bring', Latin veho 'drive', Old Norse vega 'move, drive' (plus engl. waggon, etc.), Lithuanian vez^u 'drive'. Old Church Slav. vezo, (vesti) 'drive', Tocharian B wask, A wAsk 'to move, twitch' (new formation with -sk'e- present). ----- > The find of one case of human body and horse head cannot be compared to > Dadhyanc. The former is a funerary practice while the latter is a myth. > Surely no one is proposing that Dadhyanc was a real live person and that > the Asvins did perform the first case of head transplant. Funerary rituals do not have a connection with local myths? E.g. what about the injunction against cremation in Christian societies not so long ago (since you need all of your bones to be resurrected)? Or the various Hindu practices? In myth you do not need *real live* persons. -- A transplant of sort - by horse head - was certainly performed on the Sintastha man after his death, just as it was done to Dadhyanc, to insure his (mythical) survival after Indra had cut off his head. The Sintastha man also has a flute next to his feet - it is in Yama's realm that the flute is blown (RV/AV).... > The Sintasha burial > is a clear case of burying the man's possessions with him, a practice > found quite widely. Fine but, please, do not bury me with a horse head, though I, like everybody, would like to speak/or to hear straight from the horse's mouth... especially if it is the secret of the (succesful) ritual, as in the case of Dadhyanc AatharvaNa. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Nov 11 21:33:41 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 22:33:41 +0100 Subject: Horses and chariots again. In-Reply-To: <199811111627.LAA09652@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227042638.23782.10620006506812965057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:27 11.11.98 -0500, you wrote: >Anthony's claim that `wegh' meant `convey in a >vehicle<' sounds >suspect to me. It does not have that specific a meaning in RV. What >about Hittite, Greek, etc? PSl >vezti< - with the meaning "to convey (in a vehicle)" belongs to All-Slavic Basic Vocabulary [cf. F. Kopecny, Zakladni vseslovanska slovni zasoba, Praha 1981, p. 400]. Similarly PSl >voz"< - "waggon, cart" [p. 411]. While commenting on PSl >v^e^za< (I do not know how to use standard ASCII characters to produce diacritical marks necessary to represent sounds in Slavic languages; in this case ^ should be reversed and imagined not before but over e and z) - meaning "tower" in modern Czech, Slovak and Polish - V. Machek [Etymologicky slovnik jazyka ceskeho, Praha 1971] makes an interesting remark that connects >wegh< with sleds: "Originally it meant, as is shown in Old Russian texts, tent, abode of nomads, temporary shelter (till now North Russian >v^e^za< = Lapponian yurt) [...]. In this connection an assumption was made, that [the word in question] was related [to the verb] >vezti<, and that originally it meant transportable [little] house. There are informations of such [houses] (on wheels) used by the Skyths and other nomads. Even nowadays sheds mounted on sleds are known [to be used] among Balkan Slavs: they are part of permanent farming equipment, in the summer they are dragged to the field which is to be guarded, and dragged back to the farm for the winter. Using sleds for transportation means in the summer was not uncommon, it was sanctified by the tradion to that extent, that not so long ago in the Trans-Karpathian Ukraine the bodies of deceased used to be carried to funerals on sleds" [p. 688]. Although Machek suspects that v^e^za may be an early borrowing from OHG >sweige< "cattle-shed/pen, shepherd's/herdsman's shelter", the new corrected Russian version of Max Vasmer's dictionary confirms connection with PSl >vezti<. According to Vasmer the original meaning was "transportable house [dom-povozka] on [sleds] runners or wheels" [M. Fasmer, Etimologiceskij slovar' russkogo jazyka, Moskva 1986, p. 285, (where also lit. on the history of the problem)]. Hoping it helps, Artur Karp, M.A. University of Warsaw Poland From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Nov 11 23:30:15 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 23:30:15 +0000 Subject: Horses and chariots again. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111223341.007aa290@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227042640.23782.7183733648573238130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: >While commenting on PSl >v^e^za< (I do not know how to use standard ASCII >characters to produce diacritical marks necessary to represent sounds in >Slavic languages; in this case ^ should be reversed and imagined not before >but over e and z) - meaning "tower" in modern Czech, Slovak and Polish - V. >Machek [Etymologicky slovnik jazyka ceskeho, Praha 1971] makes an >interesting remark that connects >wegh< with sleds: See also Old Norse "lever", pl. "sledge", "litter, stretcher, bier". The root *wegh- is also occasionally connected with aquatic means of transportation, as in Skt. vahitra-. English "weigh" and "way" are neutral as to the means, and only imply that something is carried from A to B. German/Dutch bewegen "to move" is even less specific. Still, the fact that so many words in this family refer specifically to *veh*icles and *wagg*ons does seem to imply an original meaning like "to carry using some means of transportation (stretcher, sledge)" as opposed to plain *bher- "to carry" For what it's worth, Gamq'relidze and Ivanov mention a Finno-Ugric root *weGe- ~ *wiGe- "to carry, to bring". ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Thu Nov 12 06:01:41 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 01:01:41 -0500 Subject: Horses and chariots again. Message-ID: <161227042658.23782.16331535264876172449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > > The attestation in a great number of IE languages points to a rather old > meaning "to take something (in a vehicle) somewhere" (terminative action), > which has become durative already in (late) Proto-IE and thus made an > s-aorist necessary (Vedic avaaT, subj. aor. vakS-at; Greek (dial.) > eFekse, Latin vexi, etc.): I am curious. Wouldn't this word have arisen via analogy out of something similar? What would it be? Driving animals? Carrying things on our back? What would you call hitching animals? Would the word have arisen out of "tying" or "binding" or putting the animals up front of the cart? Would it be from walking/running or the causative version of one of them? I am assuming, of course, that they had not yet picked up the habit of creating new names for things from Greek and Latin :-) -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hart at POLBOX.COM Thu Nov 12 00:54:50 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 01:54:50 +0100 Subject: Horses and chariots again. In-Reply-To: <366211f4.105718323@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227042642.23782.17091997964791186022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:30 11.11.98 GMT, you wrote: >Artur Karp wrote: > >>While commenting on PSl >v^e^za< (I do not know how to use standard ASCII >>characters to produce diacritical marks necessary to represent sounds in >>Slavic languages; in this case ^ should be reversed and imagined not before >>but over e and z) - meaning "tower" in modern Czech, Slovak and Polish - V. >>Machek [Etymologicky slovnik jazyka ceskeho, Praha 1971] makes an >>interesting remark that connects >wegh< with sleds: > >See also Old Norse "lever", pl. "sledge", >"litter, stretcher, bier". > >The root *wegh- is also occasionally connected with aquatic means of >transportation, as in Skt. vahitra-. English "weigh" and "way" are >neutral as to the means, and only imply that something is carried >from A to B. German/Dutch bewegen "to move" is even less specific. >Still, the fact that so many words in this family refer specifically >to *veh*icles and *wagg*ons does seem to imply an original meaning >like "to carry using some means of transportation (stretcher, >sledge)" as opposed to plain *bher- "to carry" > >For what it's worth, Gamq'relidze and Ivanov mention a Finno-Ugric >root *weGe- ~ *wiGe- "to carry, to bring". > > >======================= >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal >mcv at wxs.nl >Amsterdam > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Also for what it's worth - Machek [ESJC, pp. 685, 688] would want to see reflexes of two IE roots here: *weg'h - "to go (using means of transportation); to convey by cart or sled" *wegh - "to move (rapidly)" [akin to G. >bewegen<] He connects the All-Slavic >veslo< - "paddle, oar" - not with *weg'h (as is commonly accepted, veslo <-- *vez-slo), but with *wegh (veslo <-- *veg-slo, -slo being a suffix used to create words denoting tools). The meaning of >veslo< wouldn't then be "instrument of conveying", but rather "instrument of moving". A. Karp From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 12 12:45:01 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 04:45:01 -0800 Subject: The ending Message-ID: <161227042669.23782.12781392842021173878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was a internationally known scientist, the Director of a research institute also: Y. NaayuDammaa He died in a plane crash. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 12 13:40:11 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 05:40:11 -0800 Subject: Dr. Jan Braun Message-ID: <161227042671.23782.11679508531815951823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Karp, Please post Dr. Jan Braun's address. On Elamitic and Dravidian, only David McAlpin's books and one review are known. May be, Prof. Braun can be requested to post a summary and a list of words here? Regards, N. Ganesan Aside: Do you know Prof. K. Nachimuthu who was in Warsaw for 2 years and left for Trivandram? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Thu Nov 12 12:25:22 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 07:25:22 -0500 Subject: The ending "Amma" for men Message-ID: <161227042667.23782.8873966174411295995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the villages in Andhra Pradesh, people call their Grand Fathers and old people with feminite gender. They(WE) used to refer to them like 'her' 'she' and take their name in feminine gender. To express love and attachment to those people, We do that. --krishna DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > > You have the fomous scientist nAyuDamma. > > Ending in amma for kRSNa seems to be a term of endearment > for Lord KRSNa. > We have the telugu folk song > > " kiSTammA! gOpAlabAlA kiSTammA! > bhaja nanadAkumAra bAlakiSTammA - gOpAlabAlA kiSTammA!" > > I think kRSNamanIdu is also a usage. > > regards, > > sarma. > > At 05:11 PM 11/11/98 PST, you wrote: > > In Southern India, the name "Amma" is normally used as an ending for > >the first names of women. However, one does see the ending "amma" for > >men also( examples I know mainly consist of the ending "kr*SNamA" as > >in the names kr*SNamA-cAri,( there is also the name kr*SNACAri, which > >makes me think that the name "kr*SNamAcAri is from kr*SNamA and not > >kr*SNa), gOpAlakr*SNamma, zivarAmakr*SNamma, EccamA( apparently a folk > >hero in the Rayalaseema area of Andhra Pradesh), LakshmA/Laxma( a fairly > >common name in Telangana as in Laxma Reddy/Laxma Goud) etc.. > >I would like to know if > >1. Any other male names ending in "Amma". > >2. The reason for this i.e. why is it that some male names have an > >ending that is typically feminine? ( One reason that I heard some time > >ago( besides the obvious "mere coincidence") is that parents, who had > >hitherto lost male progeny, would take a vow to bring up a male child as > >a female IF he survived ; as a part of the process they would give the > >new born male a feminine name...This would be analogous to names like > >nAthUrAm( rAm with a "nath"i.e. nosering) in Northern India..In > >addition to this, is there any other reason?.... > > > >Looking forward to your replies, > >Regards, > >Krishna > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > -- ********************************************************************************* * Krishna Prasad Konduru * * GFX Systems, Merrill Lynch 790, NewArk Avenue * * 16th Floor, World Financial Center, New York Apartment 3F * * Ph: 212-449-5712 (O) Fax : 212-449-6789 (O) Jersey City * * : 201-239-1429 (R) New Jersey 07306 * * Pg: 917-314-3411 * * Be: 1-888-MERRIL0 * ********************************************************************************* From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 12 02:02:56 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 07:32:56 +0530 Subject: Dominique Thillaud In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111134437.007c5bd0@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227042647.23782.15999911638039549187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 12 02:27:16 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 07:57:16 +0530 Subject: Anandashram Newsletter Message-ID: <161227042649.23782.12960712452621512643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nov 12, 1998 Dear Sir, I reply-e-mailed to you twice to request you to send your postal address to enable us to send you the ANL; but the mail bounced with the remark 'user not found'. Hence this open letter. Please do the needful. Best wishes. KSA From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Nov 12 16:49:27 1998 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 08:49:27 -0800 Subject: [Re: Horses and chariots again.] Message-ID: <161227042683.23782.816606423035122940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Michael Witzel wrote:> [snip]> The attestation in a great number of IE languages points to a rather old > meaning "to take something (in a vehicle) somewhere" (terminative action),> which has become durative already in (late) Proto-IE and thus made an> s-aorist necessary (Vedic avaaT, subj. aor. vakS-at; Greek (dial.)> eFekse, Latin vexi, etc.): > > Present: Vedic vahati 'drives', Avest. vazaiti 'drives', Greek (dial.) > FeksetO 'must bring', Latin veho 'drive', Old Norse vega 'move, drive' > (plus engl. waggon, etc.), Lithuanian vez^u 'drive'. Old Church Slav. > vezo, (vesti) 'drive', Tocharian B wask, A wAsk 'to move, twitch' (new > formation with -sk'e- present). > > ----- > > The find of one case of human body and horse head cannot be compared to> > Dadhyanc. The former is a funerary practice while the latter is a myth.> > Surely no one is proposing that Dadhyanc was a real live person and that> > the Asvins did perform the first case of head transplant. [snip] There are two points related to semantic distance here: about semantics of Vedic vahati (drives?) and Dadhyan~c. Is the decapitation of Dadhyan~c and transplant attested in the Rigveda? Why can't it be interpreted literally in the context of materials used in the yajn~a, such as lacto products. The dha_tu, vah moves extraordinary semantic distances in lexemes such as nirva_ha, prava_ha. Based on the entire corpus of vah-based words, why can't we deduce that the proto-semantics of this root were more connected with 'moving' than with 'carrying'or 'driving'? In Tamil, va_ku means: attitude? I think this is a classic instance of the tough problem of measuring semantic distances, so long as motion was integral to an animate being from times immemorial, even in the pre-lithic states of evolution. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 12 04:28:31 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 09:28:31 +0500 Subject: The ending "Amma" for men In-Reply-To: <19981112011113.14659.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042656.23782.9338115990322047805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You have the fomous scientist nAyuDamma. Ending in amma for kRSNa seems to be a term of endearment for Lord KRSNa. We have the telugu folk song " kiSTammA! gOpAlabAlA kiSTammA! bhaja nanadAkumAra bAlakiSTammA - gOpAlabAlA kiSTammA!" I think kRSNamanIdu is also a usage. regards, sarma. At 05:11 PM 11/11/98 PST, you wrote: > In Southern India, the name "Amma" is normally used as an ending for >the first names of women. However, one does see the ending "amma" for >men also( examples I know mainly consist of the ending "kr*SNamA" as >in the names kr*SNamA-cAri,( there is also the name kr*SNACAri, which >makes me think that the name "kr*SNamAcAri is from kr*SNamA and not >kr*SNa), gOpAlakr*SNamma, zivarAmakr*SNamma, EccamA( apparently a folk >hero in the Rayalaseema area of Andhra Pradesh), LakshmA/Laxma( a fairly >common name in Telangana as in Laxma Reddy/Laxma Goud) etc.. >I would like to know if >1. Any other male names ending in "Amma". >2. The reason for this i.e. why is it that some male names have an >ending that is typically feminine? ( One reason that I heard some time >ago( besides the obvious "mere coincidence") is that parents, who had >hitherto lost male progeny, would take a vow to bring up a male child as >a female IF he survived ; as a part of the process they would give the >new born male a feminine name...This would be analogous to names like >nAthUrAm( rAm with a "nath"i.e. nosering) in Northern India..In >addition to this, is there any other reason?.... > >Looking forward to your replies, >Regards, >Krishna > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Thu Nov 12 08:40:03 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 09:40:03 +0100 Subject: SV: RERE: Paired Horse and bladibla Message-ID: <161227042660.23782.4260771865652800010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > That is true. We have only "de" (animate) and "het" (inanimate) > words, even if the dictionaries still mark "de"-words as m. or f. > > But the problem is that the personal pronouns still make a three-way > distinction (hij/zijn zij/haar het/zijn ~ he/his she/her it/its), so > when a pronoun has to refer back to a "de"-word, and sexual gender > does not apply, people are often at a loss which pronoun to use. In > general, little attention is paid to what the dictionaries say, and > "hij/zijn" is commonly used, excepty for abstract words, which tend > to be referred to as "zij/haar". It's not uncommon for city dwellers > to use the pronoun "hij" when referring to a cow. Most Flemish speakers of Dutch know perfectly well the distinction between feminine and masculine words and are seldom at a loss which pronoun to use. Sometimes this a reason for them to ridiculise the speach of the "Hollanders", who mostly no longer make this distinction. Erik Seldeslachts University of Ghent Ghent, Belgium From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Thu Nov 12 14:55:06 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 09:55:06 -0500 Subject: Dominique Thillaud Message-ID: <161227042679.23782.12372749867111315501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > PS: Dear Pr. Arjunwadkar, not using your transcription system, > I'm unable to read your verses ;- > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France here are the verses in roman script.. kaH kaa vaayamiyaM veti moohayantii budhaanapi . mahaamaayaavini kaachid bhaashaa jayatu laukikii.. vaagatitastayoraatmaa striipuMvyaktivivarjitaH . yee vidusteepi maayaayaaM klisyanti kraantadarshinaH .. --krishna From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Nov 12 18:16:14 1998 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 10:16:14 -0800 Subject: The ending "Amma" for men In-Reply-To: <19981112011113.14659.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042684.23782.8220226160903740629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > ( examples I know mainly consist of the ending "kr*SNamA" as > in the names kr*SNamA-cAri,( there is also the name kr*SNACAri, which > makes me think that the name "kr*SNamAcAri is from kr*SNamA and not > kr*SNa), The name kRshNamAcAri comes from the words kRshNam + AcArya, not kRshNamA. There is no female element here. In Tamil, male names ending in 'n' are often changed to end in 'm' -- hence rAmAnujan is also said and seen as rAmAnujam. kRshNan becomes kRshNam and with the "AcArya" honorific, the name becomes kRshNamAcArya/kRshNamAcAri. Srini Pichmani mentioned the 13th century Sri Vaishnava scholar naDAdUr ammAL, also known as vAtsya varadAcArya. varadAcArya acquired the name "ammAL" because of his unusual, motherly affection for God. This is a case where a feminine name was given to highlight a particular quality. Mani From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Nov 12 16:34:24 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 10:34:24 -0600 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <364AF6CA.5F8A@genesis.ml.com> Message-ID: <161227042681.23782.10172300655469089508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> more on Political Pedants.... Coloured Views of Saffron http://www.india-today.com/itoday/26101998/books.html *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 12 18:38:07 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 10:38:07 -0800 Subject: The ending Message-ID: <161227042686.23782.6847107311561785121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The name kRshNamAcAri comes from the words kRshNam + AcArya, >not kRshNamA. There is no female element here. In Tamil, >male names ending in 'n' are often changed to end in 'm' -- >hence rAmAnujan is also said and seen as rAmAnujam. kRshNan >becomes kRshNam and with the "AcArya" honorific, the name >becomes kRshNamAcArya/kRshNamAcAri. I also know S. Rajam, brother of Veenai Balachandar. A great painter; My family has a good collection of original paintings by him. Also, I knew the late Sri. Rajam (known as 'Murray' Rajam) He is no more. This Srivaishnavaite's service to Tamil is immeasurable. For all the sangam classics, naalaayiram, kamban, kallaaDam, cilambu, prabandhams like kuR. kuRavanji, nandik kalambakam, kal. paraNi, etc., he convened a team of scholars headed by T. P. Meenakshisundaram S. Vaiyapuri Pillai, M. Shanmugam, S. K. Ramarajan, Pi. Sri., They broke the texts into separate words (where they should break and where not; the rules themselves was an achievement which was condensed in a book - canti, kuRiyiiTTu viLakkam). After breaking the sandhi of classical tamil texts and adding the punctuation marks, Rajam issued these classics for Re. 1/- !! Nowadays, people sell his work for 300 times that price! The French Institute of Indology's Tevaram edition is basically what Rajam gave to them. Kamban Kazhagam edition is also Rajam's. What is available at Uni-Koeln website of classical Tamil texts is also Rajam's achievement. No Tamilnadu govt. by Dravidian or otherwise has done so much for Tamil! Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 12 18:41:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 10:41:34 -0800 Subject: Horses and chariots again Message-ID: <161227042688.23782.7460700540846122746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *The similarities between Sintasha burials and Vedic culture are not *so convincing either. The RV references given by Genning in JIES *article of late 70's seem too general to point especially to *Sintasha burials. Genning has not specialized in the Vedas. He might have browsed Vedic translations intended for general public. Hope Vedicists take a close look at the Russian archaeological reports and give us new data. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Thu Nov 12 10:58:04 1998 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 10:58:04 +0000 Subject: Membership BORI In-Reply-To: <36589f8b.76424563@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227042662.23782.8699469691717991750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Message: All the life members of BORI are requested to e-mail their postal address to Saroja Bhate in order to enable her to hand over to BORI for further correspondence. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Nov 12 10:13:20 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 11:13:20 +0100 Subject: Dominique Thillaud In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042675.23782.17409082527008774231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I thank Lars for his care ;-) Dear Artur and Mark, there was no need to apologize. I'm longly trained to receive and accept a feminine identity in various mails. I don't know why, despite the western renown of the Dominicus who founded a religious order, my name becomed ambiguous, but that's a fact and this situation is not so rare in French, where the widely used Claude, Yannick and Camille are in the same case. That's indeed true that's using the web, we exchange mails with highly abstract persons ;-( Hence, being a man, I'm 56 old, fat, bearded, chestnut-haired (with a lot of grey), blue-eyed and bearing glasses. I'm very quick-tempered, but I suppose you already know that ;-) Best Regards, Domenikos PS: Dear Pr. Arjunwadkar, not using your transcription system, I'm unable to read your verses ;-( Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 12 19:37:03 1998 From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 11:37:03 -0800 Subject: Anandashram Newsletter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042690.23782.15314990086124999310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize. My mailing address is: Naseem A. Hines 11310, 17th Ave. NE Seattle, WA 98125 OR Department of Asian Lang. and Litt. Box # 353521 University of WAshington Seattle, WA. 98195 On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > Nov 12, 1998 > > Dear Sir, > I reply-e-mailed to you twice to request you to send your postal address to > enable us to send you the ANL; but the mail bounced with the remark 'user > not found'. Hence this open letter. Please do the needful. > Best wishes. > KSA > From hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM Thu Nov 12 19:29:01 1998 From: hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM (Harold F. Arnold) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 12:29:01 -0700 Subject: Audio RV In-Reply-To: <01be0b8b$1940f640$14cc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227042814.23782.3540713982506741050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I know of several items available. Could you say more about what you are >looking for?? >Do you want the whole thing?? Do you want it slow and divided up so it can >be learned?? Do you want single pandit or multiple pandits?? >Are you interested in computer software version for easy repetition?? > >Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu I, for one, would be interested in any of these things. Please tell us what you know! From JHOUBEN at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Nov 12 12:03:37 1998 From: JHOUBEN at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 13:03:37 +0100 Subject: FritS Staal on meaning of ritual Message-ID: <161227042664.23782.605013321165108703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Axel Michaels wrote: >> I'm looking for substantial criticism on Fritz Staal's theory on the >> meaning of rituals. By substantial I mean elaborate articles or books. and Harry Falk answered >ich weiss nicht, ob meine Rezension in der OLZ Ihre Kriterien erf?llt. - When did Harry Falk's Recension (presumably of Staal's Rules without Meaning?) appear? Indologists, Anthropologists, Religious scientists have all reacted to Staal's theory of meaninglessness of ritual. Staal's own reaction to a number of reactions appeared in the Journal of Ritual Studies 7.2 (1993):11-32 under the title "From Meanings to Trees." One of the first elaborate reactions to Staal's theory of meaninglessness of the ritual is Penner, H.H. "Language, Ritual and Meaning," Numen 32 (1985):1-16. Further e.g.: H. Scharfe 1990: "The Great rituals -- were they really meaningless?" in Sanskrit and Related Studies, 89-98. ed. B.K. Matilal and P. Bilimoria. Poona: Shri Garibdas Oriental Series. Brian K. Smith wrote a review of Staal's Rules without Meaning in Journal of Ritual Studies 5 (1991):141-143. Ivan Strenski, 1991: "What's rite? Evolution, Exchange and the Big Picture." Religion 21:219-225. Bodewitz 1990 briefly in The Jyotistoma Ritual, JB 1.66-364, p. 7-9. Leiden: Brill. My own brief reaction e.g. on pp. 8-9 of the Pravargya Brahmana of the Taitt. Aranyaka, Delhi 1991:8-9. Those reading Dutch may be referred to Hoofdstuk 7 of Modern Orientalisme of anthropologist P.v.d.Veer (Meulenhoff, 1995). JH From JHOUBEN at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Nov 12 12:04:05 1998 From: JHOUBEN at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 13:04:05 +0100 Subject: FritS Staal on meaning of ritual, 2 Message-ID: <161227042666.23782.8348652908308740848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Axel Michaels wrote: >> I'm looking for substantial criticism on Fritz Staal's theory on the >> meaning of rituals. By substantial I mean elaborate articles or books. Further e.g.: Witzel, Michael 1992: "Meaningful Ritual. Vedic, Medieval and Contemporary Concepts in the Nepalese Agnihotra Ritual." Pp. 774-827 in: Ritual, State and History in South Asia. Essays in Honour of J.C. Heesterman, ed. by A.W. v.d. Hoek, D.H.A. Kolff, M.S. Oort, Leiden: Brill. Heesterman, J.C. The broken world of Sacrifice, pp. 1-4. Chicago Univ. Press, 1993. An anthropological reaction is further found in Michael Houseman and Carlo Severi's Back to Naven: a relational approach to ritual action (reworked English version of Naven ou le donner a voir: essai d'interpretation de l'action rituelle, to appear with Brill, Leiden). Part III contains elaborate theoretical considerations which take Staal's theory (among others) into account. JH From mcv at WXS.NL Thu Nov 12 14:49:38 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 14:49:38 +0000 Subject: On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042677.23782.7601155470977696404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Dominique.Thillaud" wrote: > Hence, the old idea Turan~turannos is commonly rejected by >hellenists (cf. Chantraine, DELG, sv). I recall that Aphrodite is the >Goddess of love and sex(*), and She never gives other gifts nor births. >Obviously, you can suppose that Turan is different, but that's never showed >on etruscan mirrors and remains just a supposition. Even if Etruscan tur- >is "to give" (could you give me the ref, please), Artur's remark remains >valid. "tur(u)ce" is one of the most common words on Etr. inscriptions. Some examples from Beekes/v.d.Meer "De Etrusken spreken", 1991: [on bronze statue:] TLE 740: tite:alpnas:turce:aiseras:thuflthicla:trutvecie "Tite Alpnas gave (this) to Aisera Thuflthica (because of an omen?)" [on Attic dish:] TLE 156: itun turuce venel atelinas tinas cliniiaras "This gave Venel Atelinas to the children of Tin (=Dioskouroi)" [on spade (persillum):] TLE 622: eca kavtha$:achuia$:persie // avle numna$ turke This spade for Kavtha Achuia, Avle Numnas gave (it). And of course on the Etruscan-Phoenician bilingual from Pyrgi (TLE 874), where probably corresponds to Phoen. , "(and he, ) Tiberius Velianas gave ..." ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Nov 12 14:19:50 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:19:50 +0100 Subject: On fertility, old Kurds, and sheep In-Reply-To: <365b00f5.142182931@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227042673.23782.5123705541331733021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Artur Karp wrote: > >>2) Even if Turan were a fertility goddess and her name's morphological >>structure were tur-an, it doesn't follow that her name must mean >>"fertility" [in fact, the meaning of her name is thought to be something >>closer to "Dispenseress" - which may agree with her nymphic (Aphrodite, >>Venus) nature; > >Yes, Etruscan is "to give". There is possibly a connection >with Pre-Greek "king, tyrant", which would fit the Minoan >"palace economy" rather well (the king being the one who gives, or >rather, redistributes). Whether that makes Venus/Turan the >"Dispenseress" or "Tyrant Love", I don't know. >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal Dear Miguel, Highly dubious. 1) we know many titles in Mycenian (qasireu > basileus; wanaka > anax; rawaketa > lagetas, &c.), but never turannos. 2) the only God who receives the title turannos in Greece is Ares, in Homeric Hymn to Ares (v.5); the context "antibioisi (dative plural) turanne (vocative)", where antibios is "ennemy, adversary", properly "who opposes the strength to the strength" (Greek bia: = Ved. jyA), excludes any "peaceful" meaning of the word turannos. Hence, the old idea Turan~turannos is commonly rejected by hellenists (cf. Chantraine, DELG, sv). I recall that Aphrodite is the Goddess of love and sex(*), and She never gives other gifts nor births. Obviously, you can suppose that Turan is different, but that's never showed on etruscan mirrors and remains just a supposition. Even if Etruscan tur- is "to give" (could you give me the ref, please), Artur's remark remains valid. Best regards, Dominique (*) sorry, Pr. Hubey, but I know many poor peoples who, despite an empty belly, make love, and who like that. Greeks knew well that nobody (even the Gods) escapes from the Goddess ;-) Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Nov 12 23:32:56 1998 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:32:56 -0800 Subject: The ending In-Reply-To: <19981112183808.3412.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042692.23782.1331211442662106349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naga Ganesan wrote: > They broke the texts into > separate words (where they should break and where not; > the rules themselves was an achievement which was condensed > in a book - canti, kuRiyiiTTu viLakkam). After breaking > the sandhi of classical tamil texts and adding the > punctuation marks, Rajam issued these classics > for Re. 1/- !! Nowadays, people sell his work > for 300 times that price! Are these editions collectively available anywhere today? I am particularly interested in kamba rAmAyaNam and nAlAyiram. Thanks, Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 13 12:59:40 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 04:59:40 -0800 Subject: The ending Message-ID: <161227042698.23782.12257697798145632000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Are these editions collectively available anywhere *today? I am particularly interested in kamba rAmAyaNam *and nAlAyiram. Many of Rajam's sangam book editions are available as New Century Book House editions. Naalaayiram is NOT available. May be as a single book of the entire naalaayiram will be a nice idea. The Srivaishnavas (N. American ??) can help in bankrolling this project. KaantaLakam or AinthiNai or Vaanathi will do good printing. (Dharmapuram Adheenam is reissuing their multivol. Tevaaram uraikaL thru' KaantaLakam.) Kamban is available at Kamban Kazakam edition; I saw them at Higginbothams. In a very thin, high quality paper (like Bible editions). KaaraikkuDi Saaw. Ganesan got this job done. Kamban has a new commentary: a multi-volume leather bound by university professors; Essentially Vai. Mu. Gopalakrishnnamachariyar's work. Lakshmi Mills G. K. Sundaram paid major portion of the costs. Reagarding commentaries on Paasurams, B. R. Purushothama Nayudu, T. K. Narayanasami of Kadaluur brought out good scholarly editions; (Nowadays, Sudharsanar) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Nov 13 12:06:48 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 07:06:48 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981113115705.0070c9e0@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227042696.23782.15174483016866833735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Folks, The enlargement of the original question will allow wider responses. It is not an uncommon event to see Sanskrit plays staged in Sanskrit in India. Long since I was in college in Pune (around 1962), the state government of Maharashtra annually sponsored staging of drama-competitions in Marathi and Sanskrit. Several groups from Maharashtra participated in these annual competitions. I myself acted in SvapnavAsavadatta, ZAkuntala, and MAlavikAgnimitra, and our group from the Fergusson College in Pune won second prizes. Besides staging classical dramas, the Bombay competitions also attracted modern Sanskrit dramas. I personally wrote two small plays, one on the life of the Marathi saint JnAnezvara and another on the life of RAmazAstri, a judge from the Peshwah period. Both of these were presented on stage by a junior high-school group from Pune and won first prizes. Pune alone often had several groups participating in these drama competitions. Around 1964, there was a celebration of the completion of 50 (?) years of German-teaching in Pune, and a group of us staged the whole of ZAkuntalam on stage in German. Pune also has a tradition of staging Sanskrit translations of Shakespeare's dramas. Professor S.D. Joshi's Sanskrit translation of Hamlet was staged in Pune around 1980. This is an important area and someone could do a comprehensive study. There are similar activities in Bombay, Madras etc. An important place to mention is the Vikram University at Ujjain. There is an annual Kalidasa festival, and among the regular activities of this festival is staging of Sanskrit plays by groups from all over India. The Marathi rendering of ZAkuntala by Mr. Annasaheb Kirloskar around 1880 is the beginning of modern Marathi musical dramas. To my knowledge, this was the first time in Maharashtra that a classical drama in translation was presented to larger audiences. The staging of Sanskrit dramas or dramatized versions of Sanskrit based stories especially in dance-drama format is common even among the Indian immigrant populations in the US. In Detroit, I and my wife, Shubhangi, have participated in the Kathak based versions of MeghadUta and ZAkuntala, and a BharatanATyam based version of KumArasambhava. We also staged a dance-drama version of Nala-DamayantI story. Such efforts are seen in many other places in North American Indian communities. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > Thanks to Lars Martin Fosse, Rebecca Manring > and Yaroslav V. Vassilkov for their answers. > > Of course, when I said "European stages", I did not mean > to exclude the United States of America (to mention at least > one country outside Europe ...). > > I think I should may be further extend my question > to performances of translations > into modern languages (including English) > of classical Sanskrit plays on Indian stages. > > The general question being of course > "Where is Sanskrit theatre alive?" > in the sense that we can say that > Shakespeare is alive to-day in Paris: > 1. you can go today or tomorrow > to the Th?atre de la Ville and see > a performance (in French) of > "La Nuit des Rois" ("Twelfth Night") > 2. you can go today or tomorrow > to the Th?atre Lucien Paye and see > a performance (in French) of > "Rom?o et Juliette" ("Romeo and Juliet") > 3. you can go today or tomorrow > to the Th?atre l'Ath?n?e and see a play > "librement inspir?e de William Shakespeare" > under the title of "La Trag?die de Coriolan" > > Where is Bhavabhuti alive? > Where is Kalidasa alive? > Why are they not so very much alive as Shakespeare is? > (I tend to think this is partly because the field of INDOLOGY > has been from the beginning confiscated to some extent > by indo-europeanists but this is of course > a very partial answer .... :-) > and not a criticism ;-) > > -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) > From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Fri Nov 13 10:57:05 1998 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 11:57:05 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042694.23782.13466823386635339730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Lars Martin Fosse, Rebecca Manring and Yaroslav V. Vassilkov for their answers. Of course, when I said "European stages", I did not mean to exclude the United States of America (to mention at least one country outside Europe ...). I think I should may be further extend my question to performances of translations into modern languages (including English) of classical Sanskrit plays on Indian stages. The general question being of course "Where is Sanskrit theatre alive?" in the sense that we can say that Shakespeare is alive to-day in Paris: 1. you can go today or tomorrow to the Th?atre de la Ville and see a performance (in French) of "La Nuit des Rois" ("Twelfth Night") 2. you can go today or tomorrow to the Th?atre Lucien Paye and see a performance (in French) of "Rom?o et Juliette" ("Romeo and Juliet") 3. you can go today or tomorrow to the Th?atre l'Ath?n?e and see a play "librement inspir?e de William Shakespeare" under the title of "La Trag?die de Coriolan" Where is Bhavabhuti alive? Where is Kalidasa alive? Why are they not so very much alive as Shakespeare is? (I tend to think this is partly because the field of INDOLOGY has been from the beginning confiscated to some extent by indo-europeanists but this is of course a very partial answer .... :-) and not a criticism ;-) -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Nov 13 12:43:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 12:43:50 +0000 Subject: SV: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) Message-ID: <161227042700.23782.5700144690802724295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: Where is Bhavabhuti alive? Where is Kalidasa alive? Why are they not so very much alive as Shakespeare is? (I tend to think this is partly because the field of INDOLOGY has been from the beginning confiscated to some extent by indo-europeanists but this is of course a very partial answer .... :-) and not a criticism ;-) I disagree with that. I think there are two major reasons: 1) India is not part of Europe's own cultural tradition. We still play Euripedes and Sophocles because they are part of our tradition, in spite of the fact that they are very distant to modern man. 2) The grotesquely mismanaged translations of much of Sanskritic literature in general. From most translations, it is impossible to guess that you are dealing with highly sophisticated plays and poems that take on a special kind of magic in their original language. This is where the Norwegian translator of Shakuntala succeeded. He turned exquisite poetry into exquisite poetry, and it worked like a dream! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2157 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 13 21:52:11 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 13:52:11 -0800 Subject: Elephants Message-ID: <161227042713.23782.2078971111866657685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Taking advantage of Dominique, Aphrodite, and so on. Once Dominique asked: * I'd like to take advantage of this return of the elephant to *ask again if the elephant is renowned in Indian tradition for a *specially high sexual power. I'm particularly interested by the *ability to have many intercourses. Not only reality but also *litterary, or even popular, metaphors would be useful to me. Ciivaka CintaamaNi, a late 9th - early 10th century Tamil Jaina epics has many poems of interest. CintaamaNi was edited by U. V. Saaminaataiyar before he went onto Sangam classics. mOTTu iLam kurumpai an2n2a mulaik kaTAk kaLiRu, muttam cUTTiya OTai pogka, nAN en2um tOTTi mARRi, ATTiya cAntam en2n2um muka paTAm azittu, vempOr OTTaRa OTTip, paintAr uzakki iTTu, vanta an2RE. (Poem 1688) My attempt at translation: A young tusker was inexperienced in war; Once adorned with pearls on its forehead ornament, it became overjoyed, overpowered the controlling goad; In the battlefield, it didn't mind the forehead jewellery getting destroyed and emerged victorious by destroying the front array of armed soldiers. Likewise: A young lady was inexperienced; Her breasts were adorned with pearls(/kiss), they became overjoyed; overpowered the natural shyness; In the bedfield, the sandal paste on them got destroyed; they emerged victorious by smacking the beautiful garland on the hero's chest! Both the meanings are contained in this poem of imagery. I don't know how to condense it. Metaphors ------------ 1) breasts --> war elephant 2) pearls/kisses --> pearls on a tusker's head jewels. 3) shyness --> aGkuzam (tOTTi in Tamil, prod) 4) sandal paste --> forehead ornaments 5) bed --> battlefield 6) enemy's front row of soldiers (taar in Tamil) --> Fresh, perfumed garland on hero (taar in Tamil) Note that the heroine is aggressive and the performer of war in the bedfield! The poet does not explicitly say that the battle he is talking about is sex. Would love to hear similar poems in Sanskrit, both in original and in translation. Thanks. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 13 22:20:24 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 14:20:24 -0800 Subject: The ending Message-ID: <161227042715.23782.16986086919533978325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to everybody who has responded to my question about "Amma". I however do have a further question: I wrote: >> ( examples I know mainly consist of the ending "kr*SNamA" as >> in the names kr*SNamA-cAri,( there is also the name kr*SNACAri, which makes me think that the name "kr*SNamAcAri is from kr*SNamA and not kr*SNa), to which Mani Varadarajan writes: >The name kRshNamAcAri comes from the words kRshNam + AcArya, >not kRshNamA. There is no female element here. In Tamil, >male names ending in 'n' are often changed to end in 'm' -- >hence rAmAnujan is also said and seen as rAmAnujam. kRshNan >becomes kRshNam and with the "AcArya" honorific, the name >becomes kRshNamAcArya/kRshNamAcAri. Sure, I can see how it works but then what I cannot understand is since rAmAnujan becomes rAmanujam, then shoouldn't we have names like rAmanujamAcArya( as well as rAmAnujAcAraya)? What is special about kr*SNa(m) that you have kr*SNamAcArya as well as kr*SNAcArya? I would also like to mention here the *sectarian* difference in the name: Most krS*NamAcAryas are zrIvaiSNava ; most kr*SNAcAryAs are mAdhva( consequently, the later seems to be common in Karnataka but is rare in Andhra Pradesh and Tamil NAdu). And from the responses I've seen, the phenomenon of male names ending in "amma" seems to be common in Andhra Pradesh but is less common elsewhere.. So, is the name kR*SNamAcArya originally from the Telugu speaking areas? Regards and thanking you for your help, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Nov 13 14:44:25 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 14:44:25 +0000 Subject: SV: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) Message-ID: <161227042702.23782.4384744114076232096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: Pune also has a tradition of staging Sanskrit translations of Shakespeare's dramas. Professor S.D. Joshi's Sanskrit translation of Hamlet was staged in Pune around 1980. I have once seen a short story by Tolstoy translated into Sanskrit. It would be interesting to know to what extent European literary works have been translated into that language, and if these editions are available. Anyone out there who knows more? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1737 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Nov 13 20:55:03 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 15:55:03 -0500 Subject: SV: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) In-Reply-To: <01BE0F1C.A453AA40@ti01a24-0026.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042711.23782.338883836275988218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor S.D. Joshi's Sanskrit rendering of Hamlet was published as: candrasena.h, durgadezasya yuvaraaja.h Sanskrit adaptation of Shakespeare's Hamlet, Publications of the CASS, Class G, No. 1 Pune, University of Pune, 1980 There are a number of renderings of European/ mostly English works into Sanskrit. I will go through the materials that I have and come up with a list of some of these items. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Pune also has a tradition of staging Sanskrit translations of Shakespeare's > dramas. Professor S.D. Joshi's Sanskrit translation of Hamlet was staged > in Pune around 1980. > > I have once seen a short story by Tolstoy translated into Sanskrit. It would be interesting to know to what extent European literary works have been translated into that language, and if these editions are available. > > Anyone out there who knows more? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Nov 13 18:13:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 18:13:50 +0000 Subject: Neo Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042708.23782.9130255962552761340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net: I have a question regarding the use of Sanskrit by the Hindutva people. I (believe I) know that the VHP has published a major political program document in Sanskrit. Are there any more such documents published in Skt., or other political tracts, and where would they be available? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Nov 13 16:21:00 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 21:21:00 +0500 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981113115705.0070c9e0@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227042706.23782.6413671577056401231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To some eextant the sanskrit theater is alive in Kerala. regards, sarma. At 11:57 AM 11/13/98 +0100, you wrote: >Thanks to Lars Martin Fosse, Rebecca Manring >and Yaroslav V. Vassilkov for their answers. > >Of course, when I said "European stages", I did not mean >to exclude the United States of America (to mention at least >one country outside Europe ...). > >I think I should may be further extend my question >to performances of translations >into modern languages (including English) >of classical Sanskrit plays on Indian stages. > >The general question being of course >"Where is Sanskrit theatre alive?" >in the sense that we can say that >Shakespeare is alive to-day in Paris: >1. you can go today or tomorrow > to the Th?atre de la Ville and see > a performance (in French) of > "La Nuit des Rois" ("Twelfth Night") >2. you can go today or tomorrow > to the Th?atre Lucien Paye and see > a performance (in French) of > "Rom?o et Juliette" ("Romeo and Juliet") >3. you can go today or tomorrow > to the Th?atre l'Ath?n?e and see a play > "librement inspir?e de William Shakespeare" > under the title of "La Trag?die de Coriolan" > >Where is Bhavabhuti alive? >Where is Kalidasa alive? >Why are they not so very much alive as Shakespeare is? > (I tend to think this is partly because the field of INDOLOGY > has been from the beginning confiscated to some extent > by indo-europeanists but this is of course > a very partial answer .... :-) > and not a criticism ;-) > >-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) > > From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Nov 13 16:25:07 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 21:55:07 +0530 Subject: Audio RV Message-ID: <161227042718.23782.15702815236013865852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" To Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley Nov 13, 1998 Dear Member, Further to my e-mail dated Nov 9, here are some more details: The Vedashastrottejak Sabha, a century-old institute of Pune, functioning as a university for the traditional type Sanskrit schools, has recorded the recitation of two complete Vedas on 90-minute audio cassettes: the Rigveda and the Samaveda (Kauthuma branch). The first (RV) consists of 34 cassettes; the second 32. These are priced at Rs. 150/- per cassette; shipping charges extra. (This would roughly come to about 300 US Dollars at the current exchange rate.) The RV recitation is by a traditionally trained Pandit from Pune (Shri D. M. Phadke); the SV recitation (that is, singing of the SV songs) is by a traditionally trained Pandit from Madras (Shri Vishvanath Sharma). On the basis of this information, you can directly contact the institute at the postal address already given. If you wish to get any further information, feel free to contact me. With best wishes, KSA From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 14 07:16:02 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 23:16:02 -0800 Subject: Neo-Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042720.23782.17018149570352092505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While one may describe hindutva-vAda as one kind of Neo-Hinduism, should one necessarily attach a similar label to the Sanskrit used by hindutva-vAdins, if and when they use it? Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 14 02:49:00 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 08:19:00 +0530 Subject: Dominique Thillaud In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042735.23782.2177935634767884725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:13 AM 11/12/98 +0100, you wrote: >Dear members, > I thank Lars for his care ;-) > Dear Artur and Mark, there was no need to apologize. I'm longly >trained to receive and accept a feminine identity in various mails. I don't >know why, despite the western renown of the Dominicus who founded a >religious order, my name becomed ambiguous, but that's a fact and this >situation is not so rare in French, where the widely used Claude, Yannick >and Camille are in the same case. > That's indeed true that's using the web, we exchange mails with >highly abstract persons ;-( > Hence, being a man, I'm 56 old, fat, bearded, chestnut-haired (with >a lot of grey), blue-eyed and bearing glasses. I'm very quick-tempered, but >I suppose you already know that ;-) > Best Regards, >Domenikos > >PS: Dear Pr. Arjunwadkar, not using your transcription system, I'm unable >to read your verses ;-( > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > Nov 14, 1998 Dear Member, Thank you for your interest in my Sanskrit composition. Here is its transliteration: kah kaa vaa 'yam iyam veti mohayantii budhaan api / mahaamaayaavinii kaachid bhaashaa jayatu laukikii // vaagatiitas tayor aatmaa striipumvyaktivivarjitah / ye vidus te 'pi maayaayaam klishyanti kraantadarshinah // Best wishes. KSA From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Nov 14 13:49:21 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 08:49:21 -0500 Subject: SV: Neo-Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <01BE0FD3.B87453A0@ti01a21-0073.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042729.23782.17971261551263211465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Sanskrit used by the HindutvavAdins is distinct not so much in its phonology and syntax, but in its semantics. It uses Sanskrit words with the meanings which are attached to them in their Hindi/Marathi usage in the Hindutva-circles like RSS. I have a few tracts of this kind with me. I will post details about some of these tracts once I comb through my personal collections. Madhav On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Vidyasankar wrote: > > While one may describe hindutva-vAda as one kind of Neo-Hinduism, should > one necessarily attach a similar label to the Sanskrit used by > hindutva-vAdins, if and when they use it? > > > No, not necessarily. My interest was in Sanskrit used as a medium of communication by Neo-Hindus/Hindutva people, but obviously, anybody can use Skt. for any purpose. Skt. as a language belongs neither to Hindutva nor to any other ideology in particular. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > From lnelson at ACUSD.EDU Sat Nov 14 17:36:15 1998 From: lnelson at ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 09:36:15 -0800 Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science Message-ID: <161227042733.23782.3270234268328532460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A colleague, Mike McClymond of Saint Louis University, who has organized a series of conferences on Science and Religion with Templeton Foundation funds, has been asked by the Foundation to broaden the scope of these conference beyond the Judeo-Christian sphere. He is therefore seeking suggestions of scholars, books, and articles dealing--in a substantive way- -with questions the interface between Hinduism and/or Buddhism and science (see below). If anyone has any ideas, he and I would very much appreciate your sending them to: michael at slu.edu Thanks, Lance ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:37:25 -0600 (CST) From: michael at SLU.EDU Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science As I mentioned on the phone, I am currently doing work with the John Templeton Foundation and the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences in Berkeley, and my task to broaden the science-religion dialogue to take account of Hinduism and Buddhism. There is an enormous body of work, both historical and philosophical, on the connections between Christianity and natural science, but thus far I have found relatively little on Hinduism and Buddhism in relation to the natural sciences. Generally the approach taken by Templeton/ C.T.N.S. is to start with a strong grounding in empirical science, and then to attempt a "dialogue" or even an "integration" with religion. So here's my question: What books and articles attempt this kind of dialogue or integration of science and religion with Hinduism or Buddhism? (I already know about Fritjof Capra's _The Tao of Physics_, and a few older books that present a kind of apologetic for Asian religions through an appeal to science.) Your suggestions would be very welcome. Appreciatively, Mike McClymond Saint Louis University E-mail: michael at slu.edu Phone: 314-977-2871 ------------------------ Lance Nelson Theology & Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at acusd.edu From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Nov 14 17:26:05 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 12:26:05 -0500 Subject: SV: Neo-Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042731.23782.17374689650157960034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the daily prayer recited at the branches of RSS. It was composed by Pt. N.N. Bhide who was, by the way, the highschool Sanskrit teacher for me and for Ashok Aklujkar: namas te sadA vatsale mAtRbhUme tvayA hindubhUme sukhaM vardhito 'ham | mahAmangale puNyabhUme tvad-arthe patatv eSa kAyo namas te namas te || prabho xaktiman hindurASTrAngabhUtA ime sAdaraM tvAM namAmo vayam | tvadIyAya kAryAya baddhA kaTIyam zubhAm AziSaM dehi tatpUrtaye || ayayyAM ca vizvasya dehIza xaktim suzIlaM jagad yena namraM bhavet | zrutaM caiva yat kaNTakAkIrNamArgaM svayaM svIkRtaM naH sugaM kArayet || samutkarSaniHzreyasasyaikam ugraM paraM sAdhanaM nAma vIravratam | tadantaH sphuratv akSayA dhyeyaniSThA hRdantaH prajAgartu tIvrA 'nizam || vijetrI ca naH saMhatA kAryazaktir vidhAyAsya dharmasya saMrakSaNaM | paraM vaibhavaM netum etat svarASTram samarthA bhavatv AziSA te bhRzaM || This was composed by Pt. Bhide in Nagpur at the request of Dr. Hedgewar, the founder of the RSS. The vocabulary is very significant in its new Hindutva semantics. Not only do the words hindubhUmi and hindurASTra appear here as new coinages, the new meanings of the words rAStra "nation", dharma "Hindu religion", and vIravrata "vow of heroism" are significant. This poem has become the anthem for RSS. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The Sanskrit used by the HindutvavAdins is distinct not so much in its > phonology and syntax, but in its semantics. It uses Sanskrit words with > the meanings which are attached to them in their Hindi/Marathi usage in > the Hindutva-circles like RSS. I have a few tracts of this kind with me. > I will post details about some of these tracts once I comb through my > personal collections. > Madhav > > On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > > > Vidyasankar wrote: > > > > While one may describe hindutva-vAda as one kind of Neo-Hinduism, should > > one necessarily attach a similar label to the Sanskrit used by > > hindutva-vAdins, if and when they use it? > > > > > > No, not necessarily. My interest was in Sanskrit used as a medium of communication by Neo-Hindus/Hindutva people, but obviously, anybody can use Skt. for any purpose. Skt. as a language belongs neither to Hindutva nor to any other ideology in particular. > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > > > > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Nov 14 13:32:54 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 13:32:54 +0000 Subject: SV: Neo-Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042724.23782.13754512547183255803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar wrote: While one may describe hindutva-vAda as one kind of Neo-Hinduism, should one necessarily attach a similar label to the Sanskrit used by hindutva-vAdins, if and when they use it? No, not necessarily. My interest was in Sanskrit used as a medium of communication by Neo-Hindus/Hindutva people, but obviously, anybody can use Skt. for any purpose. Skt. as a language belongs neither to Hindutva nor to any other ideology in particular. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Nov 14 13:30:07 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 14:30:07 +0100 Subject: Chariots & petroglyphs In-Reply-To: <19981114071603.22604.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042726.23782.12722491055939396114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List-Members, Two questions: 1) Where could I find good reproductions of Mirzapur cave drawings[? or are they petroglyphs]? What I have at hand now is a reproduction of one of them in D.D. Kosambi's "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India" [p. 123 in the Russian translation]. It seems to depict a warrior standing on the chariot and readying himself to hurl his discus [at his enemies?]. It curiously shows the chariot as four-wheeled [?]. Kosambi says the image may be dated at cca 800 BC. Has this date been confirmed independently in any way? Are there any older graphic images of chariots known from the territory of India? 2) I would also appreciate information on the petroglyph that can be seen in a small cave-shrine in Bhimagada-kund in Hardwar. Has it been mentioned/reproduced anywhere? Regards, Artur Karp From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 14 12:12:08 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 17:12:08 +0500 Subject: Charles Philip Brown Bicentennial Birth Anniversary Message-ID: <161227042722.23782.4257895899455054699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CHARLES PHILIP BROWN The Bicentennial birth anniversary of C.P.Brown is being celebrated on the 14th & 15th of this month at Cuddapah the place where C.P.Brown resided for a long time and did yeoman service for telugu literature. Born on 10 November 1798 in Calcutta, Charles Philip Brown acquired proficiency in Telugu, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Greek and Latin. He was appointed to serve as Assistant Collector in Cuddapah in 1820. On the exhortation of Sir Thomas Munroe, the then Governer of Madras Presidency, to learn the regional languages and carry out administration in them , he gathered round him a number of telugu scholars and not only learnt the language but got a number of telugu classics collated from manuscripts and published some of them. And he did all these things paying people out of his pocket. But for him a number telugu classics would have gone into oblivion. The dictionaries of English - Telugu and Telugu - English which he authored are still standard and are known as "brauNyaM". His appointment in various places in telugu region in various capacities as a civil servent helped his literary activities. The place where he lived in Cuddapah and did most of his telugu literary work has been acquired and a memorial library has been established in his name in a nice building which boasts of 18,500 + volumes which is recognised as a research center by the telugu university. regards, sarma. From mahesh at STARNETINC.COM Sun Nov 15 14:19:48 1998 From: mahesh at STARNETINC.COM (Mahesh) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 08:19:48 -0600 Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science Message-ID: <161227042747.23782.6119325998763527403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello! I was wondering where Jainism fits into this. I read in a book that Buddhists ( during the time Buddha was alive) found that Jains loved to debate. How about the science of logic? Logical thought processes that led to questioning of beliefs, and the concept of objectivity and illusion or "maya"? Mahesh >Budhdhism had the most exalted frame of logic and Hinduism was the most >accomodative , in fact Hinduism is not a relgion in the classical terms of >the meaning, itis pity that it is made out to be so by zealots, > > >I wish your conference very well, take care that it does not become a >platform for revivalism > >the science is the basis for any replicable, testable and generalizable >statement, > >every religion has many of such statements just as each has many belifes >that are beyond science > >but the important point is: where does morality spring from, and can >scientific pursuit be carried on without moral context > >anil > >Prof Anil K Gupta >Indian Institute of Management >Ahmedabad 380015 >india >and cordinator SRISTI and HOney bee network > >http://csf.colorado.edu/sristi/ >anilg at iimahd.ernet.in >http://www.iimahd.ernet.in/~anilg/unesco > From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 15 03:42:53 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 09:12:53 +0530 Subject: Neo Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <01BE0F31.7AF14940@ti01a24-0026.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042758.23782.15662361302709652530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:13 PM 11/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >Dear members of the net: > >I have a question regarding the use of Sanskrit by the Hindutva people. I (believe I) know that the VHP has published a major political program document in Sanskrit. Are there any more such documents published in Skt., or other political tracts, and where would they be available? > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > Nov 15, 98 Dear Member, You may be interested in knowing that books in Sanskrit on Hinduism have been published. I know the following ones as they were typeset on my PC: 1) Samskrita-raksanaartham Hindutva-posanam Aaavashyakam (1991) 2) Naanaatve Ekatvam Hinduunaam Vaishistyam (1992) 3) Atithidevo Bhava (1994). Originally written as a Doctoral thesis, but not submitted for fear of hurting feelings of people about the cow by references in ancient Sanskrit texts about cow-slaughter for meat. All these books are by M. P. Degvekar, an ex-RSS worker, who can be contacted at the following address: 4 Naik Appartments, 747 Guruwar Peth, PUNE 411 042, India. Sorry for the ugly spellings of Sanskrit words in the absense of the availability on e-mail of a Roman font with diacritical marks. I am tempted to offer our MaxMuller font (diacritical Roman) free to the members of Indology List, but cannot do so without the consent of my colleagues who worked hard to develop it. Best wishes. KSA From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 15 04:15:44 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 09:15:44 +0500 Subject: RSS prayer in devanagari Message-ID: <161227042737.23782.12331855174527768370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 15 04:29:24 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 09:29:24 +0500 Subject: RSS prayer in devanagari Message-ID: <161227042740.23782.11171994861919380770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There has been a small typo. Regret the error. Sending it again. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ysyoung at GIASPN01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 15 04:25:08 1998 From: ysyoung at GIASPN01.VSNL.NET.IN (Shinyoung Yoo) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 09:55:08 +0530 Subject: apology Message-ID: <161227042743.23782.6502775032373058740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm sorry to send "quit mail" to the wrong address and thank all who kindly send me a mail to help. with best wishes. From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 15 04:33:56 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil K Gupta) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 10:03:56 +0530 Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science Message-ID: <161227042745.23782.577217065835558761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Budhdhism had the most exalted frame of logic and Hinduism was the most accomodative , in fact Hinduism is not a relgion in the classical terms of the meaning, itis pity that it is made out to be so by zealots, I wish your conference very well, take care that it does not become a platform for revivalism the science is the basis for any replicable, testable and generalizable statement, every religion has many of such statements just as each has many belifes that are beyond science but the important point is: where does morality spring from, and can scientific pursuit be carried on without moral context anil Prof Anil K Gupta Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad 380015 india and cordinator SRISTI and HOney bee network http://csf.colorado.edu/sristi/ anilg at iimahd.ernet.in http://www.iimahd.ernet.in/~anilg/unesco From langstonrob at JUNO.COM Sun Nov 15 15:06:58 1998 From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (robert b langston) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 10:06:58 -0500 Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science Message-ID: <161227042752.23782.8386897936281884418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The first thing that comes to my mind is the turn of the century notions of "spirituality" mixed with the notions of "progress", or "modernism", starting with the World Parliament of Religions at the Chicago Columbian Exposition. Also the Spiritualist Movement of that time, or New Age pioneers like Annie Beasant, Madame Blavatsky, Rudolph Steiner. Around the same time you find titles like the "Holy Science" by Swami Sri Yukteswar and the "Science of Religion" by Paramahansa Yogananda. I would guess indologists might see this as either a mix of saints and charlatans , or perhaps charlatans all..... As an artist, though, I tend to appreciate these early attempts to put science and religion on the same level. At the same time, I believe that Professor Gupta's point should be well taken. Also, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Maharishi University in Fairfield, Iowa has a lot of resources on your topic. Best Regards, Robert From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sun Nov 15 11:55:32 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 14:55:32 +0300 Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science Message-ID: <161227042781.23782.17354027202313071166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lance and Michael, I would not limit the period of building bridges between science and Hindu world-pattern by the turn of the century only as Robert B. Langdon does. It went on all the time. Please don't forget such classics in the field as 1. What is Life? The Phisical Aspect of the Living Cell. By Erwin Schro(e)dinger. Dublin (?), 1945, 2. Works by modern "Transpersonal psychologists", such as S.Grof (Realms of the Human Unconscious. Observations from LSD Research. Viking Press, N.Y., 1975; Beyond the Brain. N.Y., 1985), Ken Wilber (The Atman Project. Wheaton, Quest, 1980; No Boundary. Eastern and Western Approaches to Personal Growth. Boston and London,Shambhala, 1989). To the same trend belonged the late Russian mathematician V.Nalimov (Faces of Science. Philadelphia, ISI Press, 1981; Realms of the Unconscious: The Enchanted Frontier. Philadelphia, ISI Press, 1982; Space, Time and Life. The Probabilistic Pathways of Evolution. Philadelphia, 1985), though his religious orientation was rather Christian, than Hindu-Buddhist. Best regards, Yaroslav ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Sun Nov 15 21:07:55 1998 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 15:07:55 -0600 Subject: Om <--> Amen In-Reply-To: <003001be10a3$1093fc00$97b4e3cf@default> Message-ID: <161227042754.23782.16478238342733362395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I was looking for information of any linguistic/historical connections between the Sanskrit Om and the Christian Amen. Does Amen derive from some similar word in Judaism ? If so, is there any connection at all with Om ? Thanks, ~sumedh From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Sun Nov 15 14:56:02 1998 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 15:56:02 +0100 Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science Message-ID: <161227042749.23782.7318714387622774291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So here's my question: What books and articles attempt this kind of dialogue or integration of science and religion with Hinduism or Buddhism? (I already know about Fritjof Capra's _The Tao of Physics_, and a few older books that present a kind of apologetic for Asian religions through an appeal to science.) A very important department in International Society for Krishna Consciousness called Bhaktivedanta Institute is studying and teaching the Vedic view of the modern science. If you contact bvi at com.bbt.se, I am sure they will provide with the lists of the books. Yours, Yashoda devi dasi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sun Nov 15 23:26:42 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 18:26:42 -0500 Subject: The RSS prayer -- text, translation, and anecdotes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981115092924.00837100@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227042756.23782.13170701386039055921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello. The following is from my new book on RSS and BJP. One chapter in this book is dedicated to the text and translation of the RSS prarthana (prayer) and Ekatmata Stotra (previously called Bharat Bhakti Stotra or pratahsmaran). I am sorry for this self-promotion of my book. But I think one is tempted to write on this subject which is so important and relevant these days as far as the rise of Hindutva fascism in India is concerned. -Partha Banerjee Author, In the Belly of the Beast: The Hindu Supremacist RSS and BJP of India -- An Insider's Story. Ajanta Books International, Delhi, India. 165 pages. 1998. _______________________ RSS Prarthana or Prayer: The Text [English translation by author is done after Sangh interpretation] Namaste sada vatsale matribhume Twaya hindubhume shukham vardhitoham Mahamangale punyabhume twadarthe Patatwesha kayo namaste namaste ||1|| Prabho shaktiman hindurashtrangabhuta Ime sadaram twam namamovayam Twadiyao karyao baddha katiyam Shubhamashisham dehi tatpurtaye | Ajayam cha vishwasya dehisha shaktim Sushilam jagad jena namra vabet Shrutam chaiva yat kantakakirnamargam Swayam swikritam nah sugam karyayet ||2|| Shamutkarshanihshreyasasaikamugram Param sadhanam naam veerabratam Tadantahsphuratwakshwa dheyanishtha Hridantah prajagartu teebrahnisham | Bijetree cha nah sanhata karyashaktir Vidhayasya dharmasya sanrakshanam Param vaibhavam netumetat swarashtram Samartha vabatwashisha te vrisham ||3|| Bharata mata ki jay || __________________________ Translation of the RSS prayer. Oh Mother (Bharatmata or Mother India) ever-affectionate to your children-salutation to thee. Oh Hindu land, I have been happily brought up by you. Oh the supreme benefactor holy land, this body be laid down for you. Many praises for you. Oh mighty Master, as integral parts of the Hindu nation, we respectfully bow to thee. We have resolved (fastened our waist-belt) to perform your works. Please give us your blessing to fulfill them. Give us the universe's unconquerable power; (and) give us good behavior and pure character that would make the world gentle. Give us the wisdom that would make our (voluntarily-taken) thorny roads smooth. The only supreme vigorous way to achieve earthly and after-life well-being and emancipation is the way of might -- this thought be expressed in our minds. May an unending devotion to ideology be ever-kindled in our hearts. Our vindicated organized work for the protection of this religion (creed) through your blessings be successful to bring our rashtra (Hindu nation) to supreme glory. [Note the emphasis on "only way is the way of might" and "vindicated organized work for the protection of this religion" - Author.] From ramakris at EROLS.COM Mon Nov 16 03:01:10 1998 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 22:01:10 -0500 Subject: Question about bhaTTa bhAskara/bhAskarAcArya Message-ID: <161227042760.23782.14544880328125043918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a question about the identity of bhaTTa bhAskara/bhAskarAcArya. There is a bhAskarAcArya who wrote commentaries on the prasthAnatrayI, from the point of view of bhedAbheda. His date from Buddhist sources is fixed 900-1000CE. He came after sha.nkara since he quotes and criticizes the bhagavatgItA bhAshhya of the latter [1]. He must have finished works by the 11th century since a Buddhist author, whose dates can be fixed reliably refers to him [2]. There is a commentary on the entire taittirIya recension of the yajur veda by one bhaTTa bhAskara mishra. He predates shAyaNa since the latter quotes him [2]. A.D.Burnell has fixed his date as From ramakris at EROLS.COM Mon Nov 16 03:17:59 1998 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 22:17:59 -0500 Subject: Question about bhaTTa bhAskara/bhAskarAcArya Message-ID: <161227042761.23782.16632909804881847908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Sorry for the previous mail, I accidentally pressed the send key] I have a question about the identity of bhaTTa bhAskara/bhAskarAcArya. There is a bhAskarAcArya who wrote commentaries on the prasthAnatrayI, from the point of view of bhedAbheda. His date (from Buddhist sources) is fixed 900-1000CE. He came after sha.nkara since he quotes and criticizes the bhagavatgItA bhAshhya of the latter [1]. He must have lived before/around the 11th century since a Buddhist author, whose dates can be fixed reliably refers to him [2]. There is a commentary on the entire taittirIya recension of the yajur veda by one bhaTTa bhAskara mishra. He predates shAyaNa since the latter quotes him. Sayana flourished ~1350 CE. A.D.Burnell has fixed bhaTTa bhAskara's date as the latter half of the 10th century, but Suryanarayana Sastri does not find the reason very convincing, though he accepts the approximate time frame [3]. The only study on this bhaTTa bhAskara mishra I found was "Contribution of BhaTTa bhAskara to Vedic Exegesis", by S.J.Carri. He doesn't mention anything about bhAskarAcArya and has not pinpointed any dates for bhaTTa bhAskara, except that he must have lived a few centuries before shAyaNa. Are these two bhAskara's the same? (there are also some other reasons to believe that both existed around the same time) If anyone could point me to some other literature on this topic: other studies on either of the bhAskara's works or about their identity, I'd be grateful. Thanks. [1] Bhaskaras gitAbhAshhya, Dr V. Raghavan Commemoration Volume. [2] History of early Vedanta, Hajime Nakamura [3] shivAdvaita of shrIkaNTha, by S.S. Suryanarayana Sastri Rama From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Mon Nov 16 09:10:09 1998 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 03:10:09 -0600 Subject: The RSS prayer -- text, translation, and anecdotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042764.23782.3522086190774009256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banerjee writes: > The following is from my new book on RSS and BJP. One chapter in this > book is dedicated to the text and translation of the RSS prarthana > (prayer) and Ekatmata Stotra (previously called Bharat Bhakti Stotra > or pratahsmaran). > > I am sorry for this self-promotion of my book. But I think one is > tempted to write on this subject which is so important and relevant > these days as far as the rise of Hindutva fascism in India is > concerned. I think it is only fair to mention the fact that Mr. Banerjee is a "well-known" leftist activist on the Net. The following URL can be used to view some of his "activities" online: http://www.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=&DBS=2&ST=PS&defaultOp=AND&LNG=ALL&format=terse&showsort=score&maxhits=25&subjects=&groups=&authors=partha%40capital.net&fromdate=&todate= I have not read the book Mr. Banerjee is promoting (and probably never will - far too many other books to read first), but I would like to caution potential readers about the heavy leftist bent of the author, not to mention the fact that coincidentally, he comes from West Bengal, which is one of the very few states of India to be under the rule of the Communist Party of India. Reading about the RSS from a leftist author is a bit like reading about Tibetan history in a Chinese government handout, or reading about American principles in an Iraqi newspaper. :-) ~sumedh From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Nov 16 15:19:31 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 10:19:31 -0500 Subject: Neo Sanskrit of VHP/RSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042775.23782.11537034903259881179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was going to list the same works which are now listed by Prof. Arjunwadkar. I found one more interesting booklet edited by S.B. Velankar (Devavanimandiram, Bombay, 1989) titled: kim nAma Hindutvam This 40 page booklet contains little articles (mostly in Sanskrit) by a number of people on the definition of Hindutva. Again, this is not an official publication by the RSS or the VHP, but reflects mostly that point of view. To add a historical note to the RSS daily prayer composed by Pt. N.N. Bhide, it reflects the sentiments at the beginning of the RSS. The Hindutva terminology found in his composition, i.e. mAtRbhUmi, hindubhUmi, hindurASTra, vIravrata, etc. is of course not original with him, nor with the RSS, but has deeper historical roots in the Sanskritized Marathi used by the HindumahAsabhA leader V.D. Savarkar. Most of these words are used in his prose and poetic works, and the inspiration for these words, I suppose, ultimately can be traced to the politics of LokamAnya Tilak in Maharashtra and the nationalistic politics in Bengal. The Neo-Hindutva terminology is not only seen in the writings such as the ones listed above, but is seen in a lot of modern Sanskrit works, i.e. the Sanskrit MahAkAvya by S.B. Varnekar on the life of Shivaji : zivarAjyodayam. In this epic poem written in exquisitly beautiful Sanskrit, one inevitably finds Sanskrit words used in their modern connotations, including the HindutvavAdi connotations. Varnekar has contributed an article "kA nAma HindutA?" to the booklet edited by Velankar I mentioned above. Madhav Deshpande From emstern at NNI.COM Mon Nov 16 15:23:36 1998 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 10:23:36 -0500 Subject: Chariots & petroglyphs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981114143007.007a3490@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227042778.23782.10557307627501077546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear List-Members, > >Two questions: > >1) Where could I find good reproductions of Mirzapur cave drawings[? or are >they petroglyphs]? What I have at hand now is a reproduction of one of them >in D.D. Kosambi's "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India" [p. 123 >in the Russian translation]. It seems to depict a warrior standing on the >chariot and readying himself to hurl his discus [at his enemies?]. It >curiously shows the chariot as four-wheeled [?]. > >Kosambi says the image may be dated at cca 800 BC. Has this date been >confirmed independently in any way? Are there any older graphic images of >chariots known from the territory of India? > *Myth and Reality*, another of D.D. Kosambi's books (Bombay: Popular Prakashan, 1962) advances the same dating claim (page 26), but footnotes it (#19). Here is the text of the footnote: "See JRAS 1960; 17-31, 135-144, or chapter IV of this book; for the cave painting (originally discovered by Carlleyle) Mrs. B. Allchin in Man, 58.1958, article 207 + plate M (pp. 153-5)." I am at home, and do not have access to these journals here, but hope that at least one of these references discusses criteria for dating the cave painting. > >2) I would also appreciate information on the petroglyph that can be seen >in a small cave-shrine in Bhimagada-kund in Hardwar. Has it been >mentioned/reproduced anywhere? > > >Regards, > >Artur Karp Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Nov 16 17:06:15 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 11:06:15 -0600 Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science In-Reply-To: <199811141737.JAA04534@barley.adnc.com> Message-ID: <161227042782.23782.4659550361788943740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Ritual Origin of Geometry and Origin of Mathematics by Seidenberg in the Archive for History of Exact Sciences There is a related paper by Seidenberg in Staals Agni as well. A recent publication which has a collection of some papers : Computing Science in Ancient India Editors: TRN Rao & Subhash Kak Subrahmanya At 09:36 AM 11/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >A colleague, Mike McClymond of Saint Louis University, who has organized a >series of conferences on Science and Religion with Templeton Foundation >funds, has been asked by the Foundation to broaden the scope of these >conference beyond the Judeo-Christian sphere. He is therefore seeking >suggestions of scholars, books, and articles dealing--in a substantive >way- -with questions the interface between Hinduism and/or Buddhism and >science (see below). If anyone has any ideas, he and I would very much >appreciate your sending them to: michael at slu.edu > >Thanks, Lance > >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date sent: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:37:25 -0600 (CST) >From: michael at SLU.EDU >Subject: Asian Religions and Modern Science > >As I mentioned on the phone, I am currently doing work with the >John Templeton Foundation and the Center for Theology and the Natural >Sciences in Berkeley, and my task to broaden the science-religion dialogue >to take account of Hinduism and Buddhism. > >There is an enormous body of work, both historical and philosophical, on >the connections between Christianity and natural science, but thus far I >have found relatively little on Hinduism and Buddhism in relation to the >natural sciences. Generally the approach taken by Templeton/ C.T.N.S. is >to start with a strong grounding in empirical science, and then to attempt >a "dialogue" or even an "integration" with religion. > >So here's my question: What books and articles attempt this kind of >dialogue or integration of science and religion with Hinduism or Buddhism? >(I already know about Fritjof Capra's _The Tao of Physics_, and a few >older books that present a kind of apologetic for Asian religions through >an appeal to science.) > >Your suggestions would be very welcome. > >Appreciatively, >Mike McClymond >Saint Louis University > >E-mail: michael at slu.edu >Phone: 314-977-2871 > > > > > >------------------------ >Lance Nelson >Theology & Religious Studies >University of San Diego >lnelson at acusd.edu > > *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Mon Nov 16 12:02:12 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 14:02:12 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) Message-ID: <161227042766.23782.15989264963290053581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues During the days I have not opened my e-mail the questions seems to have moved beyond European stages, but perhaps an answer to the original question is still in place. To make the post not too long, I just list those cases I know of, without adding information about theatres, directors etc. I am certain that even these are but a small part of actual cases. English 1899 ZakuntalA, Monier Williams' translation (1855) staged in London. 1912 same, in Cambridge, by Indian students. 1913 same, in London. 1924 MRcchakaTika, in New York, directed by Morgan and Irene Lewisohn (famous). German 1820 a stage version of the ZakuntalA by W. Gerhard published. I do not know, whther it was actually staged. 1869 New stage version of the Zakuntala by A. von Wollzogen published. It was staged several times in different parts of Germany (e.g. Breslau). 188? VikramorvazIya in Munich 1892 MRcchakaTika, stage version by E. Pohl published. Staged several times in different places both in Germany and elsewhere. 1903 ZakuntalA freely adapted by M.M?ller, performed in Berlin. 1916 MRcchakaTika adapted by L. Feuchtwanger, often performed in Germany and elsewhere. 1917 MAlavikAgnimitra by Feuchtwanger, performed by Winternitz. 1973 MAlavikAgnimitra, Weber's old translation staged in Plauen, DDR. French 1835 ZakuntalA in Paris, apparently the earliest performance of an Indian play in the West. 1850 or 58 MRcchakaTika by Mery and Nerval, in Paris, with little success. 1895 MRcchakaTika by Barrucand in Paris. Spanish 198? ZakuntalA, in Cuba Dutch 1958 ZakuntalA. Kern's old translation adapted into a famous theatre performance. Swedish 1894 Pohl's German MRcchakaTika translated and performed in Stockholm. 1905 M?ller's German ZakuntalA translated and performed in Stockholm. Russian 1910 or 14 ZakuntalA in Moscow, directede by A. Tairov, a famous performance. Polish 1960 ZakuntalA in Warsaw, directed by J. Grotowski. Czech 1922 BhAsa's CArudatta translated by V. Lesny, performed in Prague. Finnish (unlike others, this is fairly complete) 1895 Pohl's German MRcchakaTika translated and performed in Helsinki. again in 1903-04, now also in other towns. 1906 M?ller's German ZakuntalA translated and performed in Viipuri, 1908 same in Helsinki. 1926 Feuchtwanger's German MRcchakaTika translated and performed in Helsinki. 1950 ZakuntalA, from a German version, adapted to the Finnish radio 1987 ZakuntalA, my own translation adapted to stage, in Kuopio I have left out ballets and operas as these were discussed a few months ago under the heading Romantic India. See also R. Van Baumer and J. R. Brandon, Sanskrit Drama in Performance. Honolulu 1980. Regards Klaus From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 16 14:02:45 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 14:02:45 +0000 Subject: SV: Romantic India Message-ID: <161227042770.23782.3172618004310540932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Klaus Karttunen wrote: reminded of our discussion about Indian inspiration in Western music, I find it somewhat embarrassing to have to confess, that I recently found some additional information in my own bookshelf. The book India and Italy, edited by R.M.Cimino and F. Scialpi (Rome 1974), has a small chapter (p. 180-182) on this theme. Here we learn that F. Alfano (1876-1954) published also a revised version of his ZakuntalA in 1944/45. Illustration 77 of the book gives the first page of Alfano's manuscript, "lento e misterioso". Several Italian composers, such as Alfano, Alfredo Casella, Ottorino Respighi et al. also used Tagore's poems to compose songs. I don't know it this has been mentioned, but Holst wrote a three-act opera called Sita before he wrote his Savitri. It was very much imbued with the Wagnerian spirit and on the grandest scale. Sita (1900-1906) won third prize in the Ricordi competition, but was never performed. Holst later abandoned the Wagnerian style, which may be one of the reasons why Sita was never performed. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2170 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Mon Nov 16 12:12:24 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 14:12:24 +0200 Subject: Romantic India Message-ID: <161227042768.23782.15905104487512053981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues reminded of our discussion about Indian inspiration in Western music, I find it somewhat embarrassing to have to confess, that I recently found some additional information in my own bookshelf. The book India and Italy, edited by R.M.Cimino and F. Scialpi (Rome 1974), has a small chapter (p. 180-182) on this theme. Here we learn that F. Alfano (1876-1954) published also a revised version of his ZakuntalA in 1944/45. Illustration 77 of the book gives the first page of Alfano's manuscript, "lento e misterioso". Several Italian composers, such as Alfano, Alfredo Casella, Ottorino Respighi et al. also used Tagore's poems to compose songs. Regards Klaus From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Mon Nov 16 15:05:46 1998 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (Dermot Killingley) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 15:05:46 +0000 Subject: Om <--> Amen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042773.23782.10899450119462569572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Om, see inter alia my 'Om: the sacred syllable in the Veda' in _A net cast wide: Investigations into Indian Thought in Memory of David Friedman_, ed. J. J,. Lipner (Newcastle upon Tyne, Grevatt & Grevatt, 1986, ISBN 0 9507918 8 1). There's no etymological connection with Amen, but their analogous ritual use gives them some analogous semantic content. Dr Dermot Killingley (Reader in Hindu Studies) Department of Religious Studies, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Tel: (0191) 222 6730. Fax: (0191) 222 5185 From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Tue Nov 17 05:45:53 1998 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 00:45:53 -0500 Subject: Om <--> Amen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042787.23782.2559782702112941013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I was looking for information of any linguistic/historical >connections between the Sanskrit Om and the Christian Amen. Does Amen >derive from some similar word in Judaism ? Amen in Hebrew means "I believe" (first person singular). Similar term in Arabic. One of the traditional explanations of Om (actually A-U-M) is that it is a quick summary of the linguistic-sonic principles encoded in the Sanskrit alphabet, starting at the back of the throat (A) and moving the sound forward until the lips seal it off (M). In other words, it's an abbreviation of the Sanskrit alphabet, which as Sabda, spanda, bIjA, etc., is all inclusive and the creative principle in action. Om therefore means 'everything', not 'I believe.' Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Nov 17 13:37:52 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 08:37:52 -0500 Subject: SV: Neo-Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042794.23782.10801598593371299987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Folks, I found certain typographical mistakes in my previous version of the RSS Sanskrit prayer. Here is the corected version. Another historical note about Pt. N.N. Bhide, the author of the poem. While Pt. Bhide did compose this poem, later he was not actively associated with the RSS. He became a dedicated follower of the yogic/devotional tradition of Narasimha SarasvatI (believed to be an incarnation of DattAtreya) in ALandI near Pune. Throughout my association with him, from 1961 onwards, I did not detect any political interests in him till his passing a few years ago. The religious texts which he insisted upon were the gaNeza-atharvazIrSa and the viSNusahasranAma. He was a great Sanskrit teacher, and both Ashok Aklujkar and I loved him dearly. We have now set up a Sanskrit scholarship fund in Maharashtra in his name. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Here is the daily prayer recited at the branches of RSS. It was composed > by Pt. N.N. Bhide who was, by the way, the highschool Sanskrit teacher for > me and for Ashok Aklujkar: > > namas te sadA vatsale mAtRbhUme > tvayA hindubhUme sukhaM vardhito 'ham | > mahAmangale puNyabhUme tvad-arthe > patatv eSa kAyo namas te namas te || > > prabho zaktiman hindurASTrAngabhUtA > ime sAdaraM tvAM namAmo vayam | > tvadIyAya kAryAya baddhA kaTIyam > zubhAm AziSaM dehi tatpUrtaye || > > ajayyAM ca vizvasya dehIza zaktim > suzIlaM jagad yena namraM bhavet | > zrutaM caiva yat kaNTakAkIrNamArgaM > svayaM svIkRtaM naH sugaM kArayet || > > samutkarSaniHzreyasasyaikam ugraM > paraM sAdhanaM nAma vIravratam | > tadantaH sphuratv akSayA dhyeyaniSThA > hRdantaH prajAgartu tIvrA 'nizam || > > vijetrI ca naH saMhatA kAryazaktir > vidhAyAsya dharmasya saMrakSaNaM | > paraM vaibhavaM netum etat svarASTram > samarthA bhavatv AziSA te bhRzaM || > > This was composed by Pt. Bhide in Nagpur at the request of Dr. > Hedgewar, the founder of the RSS. > The vocabulary is very significant in its new Hindutva semantics. > Not only do the words hindubhUmi and hindurASTra appear here as new > coinages, the new meanings of the words rAStra "nation", dharma "Hindu > religion", and vIravrata "vow of heroism" are significant. This poem has > become the anthem for RSS. > Madhav Deshpande From efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Nov 17 03:59:35 1998 From: efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (efeoci) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 08:59:35 +0500 Subject: Release of new publications Message-ID: <161227042785.23782.10766281820604050761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NEWLY RELEASED from the Department of Indology of the French Institute of Pondicherry and the Centre for Indology of the Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient:--- 1. Soma'sambhupaddhati : Rituels dans la tradition siva?te selon Soma'sambhu. Quatri?me partie : rituels optionnels : prati.s.thaa. Texte, traduction, introduction et notes par H?l?ne Brunner-Lachaux. Publications du d?partement d'indologie 25.4. 1998. Introduction, Sanskrit text, French translation, index. Pp. lxv, 503. 14 plates. PRICE: Rs. 1100. Postage extra. 2. Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's Commentary on the Kira.natantra, volume I: chapters 1--6, critical edition and annotated translation, Dominic Goodall. Publications du d?partement d'indologie 86.1. 1998. Introduction, 2 plates (of folios of Grantha manuscripts), Sanskrit text, English translation, indices. Pp. cxxv, 487. PRICE: Rs. 900. Postage extra. The summaries of the two books are given below. These publications are distributed exclusively by: Motilal Banarsidass 41,U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-100 007 In case of any difficulty please contact: Institut fran?ais de Pondich?ry D?partement d'Indologie 11, St. Louis Street P.B. 33 Pondicherry-605 001 Tel: 0413-332504 Fax: 0413-335538 E-mail : efeoci at md2.vsnl.net.in SUMMARY OF Soma'sambhupaddhati , part 4 by H?l?ne Brunner-Lachaux The present volume, the fourth and last of our French translation of Soma'sambhupaddhati, is very homogeneous in content. After a first chapter that describes the laying of the first stones (named ``feet'') of a 'Siva temple, the following thirteen deal exclusively with installations (prati.s.thaa): of images of Gods ('Siva, Gaurii, the Sun, Vi.s.nu); of objects made into divine images (the door, a pot seen as the heart of the temple, the superstructures of the vimaana); then of various constructions ma.tha, pool, well), finally of a tree. The 'sivaprati.s.thaa is dealt with in two long chapters, and serves as a model for the others; it is completed by a chapter which describes the extraction of an old li"nga. Except for the drawing of the characteristic marks on the li"nga, Soma'sambhu gives no details concerning the material aspect of things, which actually is of concern to the 'silpin. He insists on the contrary, as he always does, on those acts which pertain to the ritual activity of the aacaarya: recitation of mantra-s, nyaasa-s, homa-s -- but also, rather surprisingly, on the preparation of the yaagama.n.dapa and on the numerous distributions of bali. This part of the text was badly preserved in the South, but its translation has been made possible by new manuscripts (not used in the first three volumes) from a Nepalese collection. The book includes a copious introduction, appendices, plates, a bibliography and a detailed index. SUMMARY OF Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's Commentary on the Kira.natantra, volume I: chapters 1--6. By D. Goodall This book contains a critical edition and annotated translation of the first six (of twelve) chapters of the Kashmirian Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha II's influential, hitherto unpublished tenth-century Sanskrit commentary on the Kira.natantra, a scripture of the theological school known as the 'Saiva Siddhaanta. The Kira.natantra in fact contains sixty-four chapters and touches on every aspect of the cult: its theology, its yoga, its observances, and its rituals and all that relates to them, including architecture and iconography. Raamaka.n.tha's commentary, however, covers only the first portion of the text, which deals with the cult's doctrines. The editor's introduction to the text presents newly uncovered evidence about the lineage of Raamaka.ntha, attempts a chronological arrangement of his extant works, provides the text of the surviving fragment of his Sarvaagamapraamaa.nyopanyaasa, and discusses the canon of extant tantras of the 'Saiva Siddhaanta that we can assume to have existed in the tenth century and so to have been accessible to Raamaka.ntha. The critical apparatus presents the readings of the four surviving South Indian palm-leaf manuscripts of the commentary and, in a separate register, the readings of twenty-seven manuscripts of the tantra from Nepal and South India. From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Tue Nov 17 14:59:26 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 09:59:26 -0500 Subject: Om <--> Amen Message-ID: <161227042797.23782.13920747985254467015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi The available literature upon the significance of this Vedic Mantra is voluminous. Nowhere in the world can we meet another sacred symbol that has got such a vast import or significance. The entire history of the syllable is in the revelations of the Vedas and in the declarations of the Upnishads. There is a Vedic verse as follows : Prajapati vai idam agra asit Tasya vak dvitiya asit Vag vai paramam Brahma "In the beginning was Prajapati, the Brahma with whom was the Word, and the Word was verily the Supreme Brahma." The same is echoed in the Gospel of St. John in the New Testament : "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Maharshi Patanjali also says in his Yoga Sutra : Tasya vachakha pranavaha -- " The indicator of Parmatama i.e his name is Pranava (OM). This indicate the supreme significance of Omkara - *OM* is itself God and, at the same time, it is also the means for realising God. Other Faiths too have a holy word like this OM in a little different or modified form. To the Christians, it is Amen, Muslims call it Amin, although their interpretation and usage is not quite identical with that of OM. ..krishna Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > > I was looking for information of any linguistic/historical > >connections between the Sanskrit Om and the Christian Amen. Does Amen > >derive from some similar word in Judaism ? > > Amen in Hebrew means "I believe" (first person singular). Similar term in > Arabic. One of the traditional explanations of Om (actually A-U-M) is that > it is a quick summary of the linguistic-sonic principles encoded in the > Sanskrit alphabet, starting at the back of the throat (A) and moving the > sound forward until the lips seal it off (M). In other words, it's an > abbreviation of the Sanskrit alphabet, which as Sabda, spanda, bIjA, etc., > is all inclusive and the creative principle in action. Om therefore means > 'everything', not 'I believe.' > > Dan Lusthaus > Florida State University -- ********************************************************************************* * Krishna Prasad Konduru * * GFX Systems, Merrill Lynch 790, NewArk Avenue * * 16th Floor, World Financial Center, New York Apartment 3F * * Ph: 212-449-5712 (O) Fax : 212-449-6789 (O) Jersey City * * : 201-239-1429 (R) New Jersey 07306 * * Pg: 917-314-3411 * * Be: 1-888-MERRIL0 * ********************************************************************************* From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Nov 17 20:02:29 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 10:02:29 -1000 Subject: Om <--> Amen In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981117113852.007a6320@postoffice.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227042807.23782.12399837636734913387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, Walker Trimble wrote: > Also in early Upanisads "Om" means just "yes," equivalent to "tathaa." Is > it possible that it could have first just been an affirmative particle that > later gained its cosmic signifcance and was not fabricated from the vowel > tables of the Sanskrit alphabet? Interestingly, in archaic or formal Tamil, "Aam" means "yes". Wonder if there's a connection. Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 17 19:05:58 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 11:05:58 -0800 Subject: Taranatha Message-ID: <161227042805.23782.1473277031560118708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> D. H. H. Ingalls, An anthology of Sanskrit court poetry, Harvard up,1965 p. 63 "One verse pictures Lokesvara seated on his mountain Potalaka which Hsuan Tsang and Taranatha placed in South India, though in the course of time other Potalakas were added". Keenly interested to know where and what the Tibetan Lama Taranatha in 1608 AD says about Potalaka being situated in South India? Can someone please check Taranatha's History of Buddhism in India? Thanks in advance, N. Ganesan Ingalls, p. 65 May Lokesvara protect you as he sits, surrounded by his mass of rays, on Mount Potalaka, which echoes with the roar of its deep caves; who thus is like the moon within the mass of waves churned in the Sea of Milk by the mountain Mandara, whirling with heavy roar and unwavering because of its great speed - J~nAnazrImitra ----------------------------------------------------------- The following is what I read on location of Potalaka. In addition we have GaNDavyUha. Marilyn M. Rhie, The Bodhisattva and the Goddess, 1980 p. 25: "This version of the compassionate bodhisattva may have evolved from the GaNDavyuuha (added to the Hua yan suutra in China in the T'ang dynasty), which describes in one episode the visit of the pilgrim Sudhana to Avalokitezvara on Mt. Potalaka in South India. He finds the Bodhisattva expounding the Sutra of Great Compassion to a host of other bodhisattvas on "western slope of the mountain, where water flows from many springs and rivulets and where soft and tender grass grows" (J. Fontein, The pilgrimage of Sudhana, p. 10)." T. Watters, On Yuan Chwang's travels in India, 1905 2.229 says: "In the south of the mo-lo-kuta (malakUTa) country near the sea was mo-lo-ya (malaya) mountain, lofty cliffs and ridges and deep valleys and gullies, on which were sandal, camphor and other trees. To the east of this was the pu-ta-lo-ka (potalaka) mountain with steep narrow paths over its cliffs and gorges in irregular confusion; on the top was a lake of clear water, whence issues a river which on its wayto the sea, flowed twenty times round the mountain. By the side of the lake was a deva place frequented by kuan-tzu-tsai-p?usa (avalokitezvara). Devotees, risking life, brave water and mountain to see the p?usa, but only a few succeed in reaching the shrine. To the people at the foot of the mountain who pray for a sight of the P?usa, he appears sometimes as a pazupata tIrthika, or mahezvara, and consoles the suppliant with his answer." S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884 2.233 says: "To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-la-ka (Potalaka)." L. M. Joshi, Studies in the Buddhist culture of India, 1967 "This Potalaka is located by Hsuan Tsang in MalakuuTa, identified by Cunningham with a tract between Madura, Tanjore and Travancore. Nandolal De suggested that Potalaka lay in Western Ghats. Nalinaksha Dutt suggests that modern Potiyam may represent Potalaka [203]" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Tue Nov 17 16:38:52 1998 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 11:38:52 -0500 Subject: Om <--> Amen In-Reply-To: <36518F4E.4817@genesis.ml.com> Message-ID: <161227042799.23782.9522764324314770728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Vedas and in the >declarations of the Upnishads. > Also in early Upanisads "Om" means just "yes," equivalent to "tathaa." Is it possible that it could have first just been an affirmative particle that later gained its cosmic signifcance and was not fabricated from the vowel tables of the Sanskrit alphabet? Walker Trimble From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Nov 17 10:40:28 1998 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 11:40:28 +0100 Subject: Question about bhaTTa bhAskara/bhAskarAcArya In-Reply-To: <364F9967.5993@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227042790.23782.18390240833603724438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 15 Nov 98 at 22:17, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: > I have a question about the identity of bhaTTa > bhAskara/bhAskarAcArya. > [...] > If anyone could point me to some other literature on this topic: > other studies on either of the bhAskara's works or about their > identity, I'd be grateful. Thanks. Klaus Rueping: "Studien zur Fruehgeschichte der Vedaanta-Philosophie. Teil 1. Philologische Untersuchungen zu den Brahmasuutra-Kommentaren des ;Sa:nkara und des Bhaaskara". Wiesbaden: Franz Steiner Verlag 1977. (Alt- und Neu-Indische Studien. 17.) From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Nov 17 12:24:32 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 12:24:32 +0000 Subject: new publications from Pondicherry Message-ID: <161227042792.23782.12300592253557273633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 15:05:01 +0500 From: efeoci Subject: message from Pondicherry From: The Librarian, Anurupa Naik Dept. of Indology, French Institute of Pondicherry, Pondicherry. -- Subject : Release of new publications NEWLY RELEASED from the Department of Indology of the French Institute of Pondicherry and the Centre for Indology of the Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient:--- 1.Soma'sambhupaddhati : Rituels dans la tradition siva?te selon Soma'sambhu. Quatri?me partie : rituels optionnels : prati.s.thaa. Texte, traduction, introduction et notes par H?l?ne Brunner-Lachaux. Publications du d?partement d'indologie 25.4. 1998. Introduction, Sanskrit text, French translation, index. Pp. lxv, 503. 14 plates. PRICE: Rs. 1100. Postage extra. 2.Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's Commentary on the Kira.natantra, volume I: chapters 1--6, critical edition and annotated translation, Dominic Goodall. Publications du d?partement d'indologie 86.1. 1998. Introduction, 2 plates (of folios of Grantha manuscripts), Sanskrit text, English translation, indices. Pp. cxxv, 487. PRICE: Rs. 900. Postage extra. The summaries of the two books are given below. These publications are distributed exclusively by: Motilal Banarsidass 41,U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-100 007 In case of any difficulty please contact: Institut fran?ais de Pondich?ry D?partement d'Indologie 11, St. Louis Street P.B. 33 Pondicherry-605 001 Tel: 0413-332504 Fax: 0413-335538 E-mail : efeoci at md2.vsnl.net.in SUMMARY OF Soma'sambhupaddhati , part 4 by H?l?ne Brunner-Lachaux The present volume, the fourth and last of our French translation of Soma'sambhupaddhati, is very homogeneous in content. After a first chapter that describes the laying of the first stones (named ``feet'') of a 'Siva temple, the following thirteen deal exclusively with installations (prati.s.thaa): of images of Gods ('Siva, Gaurii, the Sun, Vi.s.nu); of objects made into divine images (the door, a pot seen as the heart of the temple, the superstructures of the vimaana); then of various constructions ma.tha, pool, well), finally of a tree. The 'sivaprati.s.thaa is dealt with in two long chapters, and serves as a model for the others; it is completed by a chapter which describes the extraction of an old li"nga. Except for the drawing of the characteristic marks on the li"nga, Soma'sambhu gives no details concerning the material aspect of things, which actually is of concern to the 'silpin. He insists on the contrary, as he always does, on those acts which pertain to the ritual activity of the aacaarya: recitation of mantra-s, nyaasa-s, homa-s -- but also, rather surprisingly, on the preparation of the yaagama.n.dapa and on the numerous distributions of bali. This part of the text was badly preserved in the South, but its translation has been made possible by new manuscripts (not used in the first three volumes) from a Nepalese collection. The book includes a copious introduction, appendices, plates, a bibliography and a detailed index. SUMMARY OF Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's Commentary on the Kira.natantra, volume I: chapters 1--6. By D. Goodall This book contains a critical edition and annotated translation of the first six (of twelve) chapters of the Kashmirian Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha II's influential, hitherto unpublished tenth-century Sanskrit commentary on the Kira.natantra, a scripture of the theological school known as the 'Saiva Siddhaanta. The Kira.natantra in fact contains sixty-four chapters and touches on every aspect of the cult: its theology, its yoga, its observances, and its rituals and all that relates to them, including architecture and iconography. Raamaka.n.tha's commentary, however, covers only the first portion of the text, which deals with the cult's doctrines. The editor's introduction to the text presents newly uncovered evidence about the lineage of Raamaka.ntha, attempts a chronological arrangement of his extant works, provides the text of the surviving fragment of his Sarvaagamapraamaa.nyopanyaasa, and discusses the canon of extant tantras of the 'Saiva Siddhaanta that we can assume to have existed in the tenth century and so to have been accessible to Raamaka.ntha. The critical apparatus presents the readings of the four surviving South Indian palm-leaf manuscripts of the commentary and, in a separate register, the readings of twenty-seven manuscripts of the tantra from Nepal and South India. -- end of forwarded message -- From emstern at NNI.COM Tue Nov 17 18:58:20 1998 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 13:58:20 -0500 Subject: Request for email address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042803.23782.11121272025978645508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Prof. Saroja Bhate has asked me to find out the email address of Wilhelm >Halbfass. If someone could provide this, I will pass it on to her. > >John Smith > >-- >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html halbfass at sas.upenn.edu Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 17 14:42:57 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 14:42:57 +0000 Subject: Thanks Neo-Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042796.23782.17540126662095100236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Heartfelt thanks to everybody who has answered my question regarding Neo-Sanskrit! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue Nov 17 17:11:52 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 17:11:52 +0000 Subject: Request for email address Message-ID: <161227042801.23782.7315588728241210245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Saroja Bhate has asked me to find out the email address of Wilhelm Halbfass. If someone could provide this, I will pass it on to her. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 18 01:52:26 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 17:52:26 -0800 Subject: Om ---- Amen Message-ID: <161227042809.23782.12387528293548116528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Also in early Upanisads "Om" means just "yes," equivalent to >"tathaa." Is it possible that it could have first just been an > affirmative particle that later gained its cosmic signifcance and > was not fabricated from the vowel tables of the Sanskrit alphabet? >>Interestingly, in archaic or formal Tamil, >>"Aam" means "yes". >>Wonder if there's a connection. I was informed: "In earlier Sanskrit upon chanting mantrams, one has to say "Om" which means 'yes'. Only in the later times, tathaa takes its place." An example will be appreciated. Not only in archaic Tamil, even today "aamaam"; It is just "Am" repeated twice "Am Am = yes, yes". Jaffna dialect of Tamil possesses many archaic features of Old Tamil. In Jaffna Tamil, people say 'Om' for 'yes' all the time. I think the praNavam's meaning as a+u+m was formulated later. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 18 01:53:47 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 17:53:47 -0800 Subject: Om ---- Amen Message-ID: <161227042810.23782.3814761051524023842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Also in early Upanisads "Om" means just "yes," equivalent to >"tathaa." Is it possible that it could have first just been an > affirmative particle that later gained its cosmic signifcance and > was not fabricated from the vowel tables of the Sanskrit alphabet? >>Interestingly, in archaic or formal Tamil, >>"Aam" means "yes". >>Wonder if there's a connection. I was informed: "In earlier Sanskrit upon chanting mantrams, one has to say "Om" which means 'yes'. Only in the later times, tathaa takes its place." An example will be appreciated. Not only in archaic Tamil, even today "aamaam"; It is just "Am" repeated twice "Am Am = yes, yes". Jaffna dialect of Tamil possesses many archaic features of Old Tamil. In YaazhppaaNam/Jaffna Tamil, people say 'Om' for 'yes' all the time. I think the praNavam's meaning as a+u+m was formulated later. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA Wed Nov 18 02:25:54 1998 From: nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Noel Salmond) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 21:25:54 -0500 Subject: J.T.F. Jordens address Message-ID: <161227042812.23782.3010301055541248758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists Would anyone know of the address, (e-mail or other) of Prof. J.T.F. Jordens who taught at the Australian National University and who wrote the definitive English biography of Swami Dayanand Sarasvati? With thanks Noel Salmond College of the Humanities Carleton University Ottawa, Canada From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Wed Nov 18 05:20:54 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 23:20:54 -0600 Subject: Audio RV Message-ID: <161227042815.23782.4929049883101625783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am putting together a list and will send it to you in a few days. Claude -----Original Message----- From: Harold F. Arnold To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Audio RV >>I know of several items available. Could you say more about what you are >>looking for?? >>Do you want the whole thing?? Do you want it slow and divided up so it can >>be learned?? Do you want single pandit or multiple pandits?? >>Are you interested in computer software version for easy repetition?? >> >>Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu > >I, for one, would be interested in any of these things. Please tell us what >you know! > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Nov 18 06:19:25 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 01:19:25 -0500 Subject: Aryan Invasion Theory and Ambedkar Message-ID: <161227042817.23782.14883042698367982947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 Edwin Bryant wrote: <> Those interested in the history of the Aryan invasion theory seem not to be aware of the contribution Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's views on the Aryan invasion theory of the 1940s. In his book, Who Were the Shudras? (1946), he has at least three chapters directly related to the discussion of this issue. Not being a Vedic scholar himself, he had studied available materials in English and presented arguments against the version of the Aryan race/invasion theory prevailing at that time. Here are some excerpts. "What is however of particular importance is the opinion of Prof. Max Muller on the question of the Aryan race. This is what he says on the subject: There is no Aryan race in blood; Aryan, in scientific language, is utterly inapplicable to race. It means language and nothing but language; and if we speak of Aryan race at all, we should know that it means no more than ... Aryan speech. I have declared again and again that if I say Aryas, I mean neither blood nor bones, nor hair nor skull; I meansimply those who speak an Aryan language...in that sense, and in that sense only, do I say that even the blackest Hindus represent an earlier stage of Aryan speech and thought than the fairest Scandinavians...To me, an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar.... The value of this view of Prof. Max Muller will be appreciated by those who know that he was at one time a believer in the theory of Aryan race and was largely responsible for the propagation of it." In discussing the original home of Aryans, this is what he says of Mr. Tilak's theory of Arctic origins of Aryans, "This is of course a very original theory. There is only one point which seems to have been overlooked. The horse is a favourite animal of the Vedic Aryans. It was most intimately connected with their life and their religion. That the queens vied with one another to copulate with the horse in the Ashvamedha Yajna shows what place the horse had acquired in the life of the Vedic Aryans. Question is: was the horse to be found in the Arctic region? If the answer is in the negative, the Arctic home theory becomes very precarious." "Take the premise about the Aryan race. The theory does not take account of the possibility that the Aryan race in the physiological sense is one thing and anAryan race in the philological sense quite different, and that it is perfectly possible that the Aryan race, if there is one, in the physiological sense may have its habitat in one place and that the Aryan race, in the philological sense, in quite a different place." Being a scholar on the phenomenon of caste and a fighter for its annihilation, he sheds important light on the role played by caste in this issue. He says, "The Aryan race theory is so absurd that it ought to have been dead long ago. But far from being dead, the theory has a considerable hold upon the people. There are two explanations which account for this phenomenon. The first explanation is to be found in the support which the theory receives from Brahmin scholars. This is a very strange phenomenon. As Hindus, they should ordinarily show a dislike for the Aryan theory with its express avowal of the superiority of the European races over the Asiatic races. But the Brahmin scholar has not only no such aversion but he most willingly hails it. The reasons are obvious. The Brahmin believes in the two-nation theory. He claims to be the representative of the Aryan race and he regards the rest of the Hindus as the descendants of the non-Aryans. The theory helps him to establish his kinship with the European races and share their arrogance and their superiority. He likes particularly that part of the theory which makes the Aryan an invader and a conqueror of the non-Aryan native races. For it helps him to maintain and justify his overlordship over the non-Brahmins." This view may seem harsh towards Brahmins. But, that there is some truth in what Ambedkar says seems to be supported by what Prof. M. M. Deshpande said as part of a lecture delivered in September at SMU in Dallas. Deshpande narrated an anecdote in which when a Maharashtrian brahmin boy was enrolled in the primary school, his father wrote in the application form "Aryan" as the racial affiliation of the boy. Many of the arguments put forward by the present day proponents of Indigenous Aryan thoery have been argued by Ambedkar in 1946. He discusses in separate chapters, Shudras versus Aryans, Aryans against Aryans, and Shudras and Dasas. I think it will be good if the Vedic scholars on the list review his findings in light of the present interest in the topic. Regards S. Palaniappan From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 18 17:09:11 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 09:09:11 -0800 Subject: Aryan Invasion Theory and Ambedkar Message-ID: <161227042824.23782.5732700217461865614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Palaniappan writes: >Those interested in the history of the Aryan invasion theory seem not to be aware of the contribution Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's views on the Aryan invasion theory of the 1940s.....In his book, Who Were the Shudras? (1946), he has at".......In discussing the original home of Aryans, this is what he says of Mr. Tilak'stheory of Arctic origins of Aryans, "This is of course a very original theory." The first explanation is to be found in the support which the theory receives from Brahmin scholars.... .. This view may seem harsh towards Brahmins. But, that there is some truth in what Ambedkar says seems to be supported by what Prof. M. M. Deshpande .... Deshpande narrated an anecdote in which when a Maharashtrian brahmin boy was enrolled in the primary school, his father wrote in the application form "Aryan" as the racial affiliation of the boy.>> I believe that this argument was also used for by Indians for the purpose of immigration to N.America..The relevant case is called(AFAIK) viSnu sAkhArAm paNDit vs the INS( circa 1920)...The claimant argued that he was, for the purposes of immigration, an European (Immigration being closed to ASiatics) since he could prove that he was Brahmin and Aryan...This argument was accepted and was treated as being valid for some time till a California court pointed out that the "Aryan invasion theory" was only a "theory" and not well-established fact and therefore ruled against citing the AIT as credible proof. However, I must point out that some of the applicants who were admitted under this rule were NOT Brahmin; they belonged to the Non-Brahmin higher castes. As is known, while education(one of the main driving forces for which many immigrants came to the USA) was Brahmin dominated in the Madras province and to a lesser extent in the BOMbay province( erstwhile), both the Punjab and the Bengal provinces had a substantial Hindu non-Brahmin presence in the field of education( The Kayastha community in Bengal and assorted groups in Punjab). The fact that these "sat-Sudras"( to use M.N.Srinivas's expression) were admitted as being "Arya" would point to the fact that quite a few non-Brahmins adhered to the AIT( or to put it uncharitably,some of them adhered readily when it suited their purpose). Either way, given the community profiles of immigrants from Punjab( quite a few of the leading figures in the Ghadar party were non-Brahmin) and the fact that Dayananda Sarasvati's "Arya Samaj" ( which was founded on the priniciple of a spritual return to the Vedas)found a lot of acceptance and patronage in Punjab by non-Brahmin Hindus( the Maharajah of Nabha, e.g.) makes me think that the obsession with the AIT was not restricted to the Brahmins alone but was more a feature of the "haves"( of whom a large percentage were Brahmin) in order to distinguish themselves from the "have-nots". Just my views.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Wed Nov 18 09:37:26 1998 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 10:37:26 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit plays on European stages (and elsewhere) Message-ID: <161227042819.23782.11434604407727854864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Netters The impressive list of Sanskrit plays staged throughout Europe compiled and published on Indology by Klaus Karttunen could be amended as follows: > >Czech >1922 BhAsa's CArudatta translated by V. Lesny, performed in Prague. > Czech 1873 Kalidasa's Zakuntala translated by Cenek Vyhnis - published in Prague 1893 Kalidasa's "MAlavikAgnimitra" translated by Josef Zubaty published in Prague 1893 MRcchakaTika, translated as "Little Clay Cart" by the poet Jaroslav Vrchlicky from the German version by E. Pohl and staged in the National Theatre in Prague 1944 new poetic translation of Kalidasa's Zakuntala by Jaroslav Vrchlicky published in Moravska Ostrava, 3rd. ed., Praha 1961 1947 Vrchlicky's translation of Zakuntala staged in Disk Theatre, Prague 1959 MRcchakaTika (a new translation from the Sanskrit and Prakrit originals by Ivo Fiser and J. Pokorny) published in Prague 1963 the same staged in Disk Theatre in Prague 1968 the same staged in the State Theatre in Brno 1972 Vrchlicky's translation of Zakuntala staged in Oldrich Stibor Theatre in Olomouc 1987 new translations of Kalidasa's VikramorvazIyam and BodhAyana's prahasana "Ascetic and Courtesan" by Dusan Zbavitel published by Odeon in Prague Obviously, the literary excellence of Sanskrit dramas are better appreciated by readers than by a theatre audience. Best wishes, Jan Filipsky From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Nov 18 16:54:09 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 11:54:09 -0500 Subject: Bodhayana Message-ID: <161227042826.23782.17884921644048606777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have any information if the Bodhayana bhashya on the Vishishtadvaita philosophy and quoted by Ramanujacharya still exists. I have tried to find it online but most of the sites say that it has been destroyed. Thanks Ashish From krishna at TICNET.COM Wed Nov 18 18:30:44 1998 From: krishna at TICNET.COM (Krishna Susarla) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 12:30:44 -0600 Subject: Venkateshwara Press Message-ID: <161227042828.23782.16478828961086805411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know how I might obtain the Venkateshwara Press editions of the Puraanas in the original Sanskrit? These are the versions which the translators in the "Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology" series used for their translations. Unfortunately, their publications are English only; hence I'm looking for the Sanskrit versions which they used. thanks in advance, -- Krishna Susarla p.s. I am actually planning a trip to India next summer, so if the only way to get them is through bookstores over there, I would very much appreciate some names and addresses. From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Wed Nov 18 19:29:24 1998 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 14:29:24 -0500 Subject: subscription In-Reply-To: <3652F4EF.49F4@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227042830.23782.7396561344779798078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to request that subscription information/procedures for INDOLOGY be sent to my colleague T. P. Mahadevan, whose email addresses is indicated in the Cc above. Please excuse this irregular request. Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 18 22:58:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 14:58:24 -0800 Subject: Om <--> Amen Message-ID: <161227042832.23782.4091104558407005688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Also in early Upanisads "Om" means just "yes," equivalent to *"tathaa." Is it possible that it could have first just been an *affirmative particle that later gained its cosmic signifcance *and was not fabricated from the vowel tables of the Sanskrit *alphabet? Please see the important publication establishing 'Om' to be of Dravidian origin: Parpola, Asko, 1981. On the primary meaning and etymology of the sacred syllable ?m. Pp. 195-213 in: Asko Parpola (ed.), Proceedings of the Nordic South Asia Conference held in Helsinki, June 10-12, 1980. (Studia Orientalia, 50). Helsinki: The Finnish Oriental Society. Summary of the main theses: Original meaning: Om in the Vedic ritual = 'yes', om = tath? = 'yes' also in ordinary conversation, and in the Chandogya Upanishad ?m is expressly said to be a word expressing agreement. Etymology: < Dravidian ?m < ?kum 'yes' < 'it is (fitting, suitable)', ? labialized by the following m as Jaffna Tamil ?m < ?m. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Wed Nov 18 16:25:19 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 17:25:19 +0100 Subject: Dravidian influence on Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042823.23782.8938170871981798523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > Dear List Members, > > I read somewhere that "the composition of Sanskrit vocabulary is > (Classical Sanskrit) > > - 70 % non-Aryan, of which > > 40 % Dravidian > > 30 % Prakrit and only > - 30 % Vedic " > > Unfortunately, no reference was given. Could anybody provide some > references supporting or opposing the fractions given above? > Whatever the reference, it is not serious. To begin with, why is Prakrit considered as "non-Aryan"? Then, what base there is to say that 40 % is Dravidian, when the basic vocabulary of Dravidian has not been reconstructed ? Moreover, many of the so-called Dravidian etymologies of Indo-Aryan words are highly disputable. Erik Seldeslachts University of Ghent Ghent, Belgium From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Nov 19 00:44:56 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 19:44:56 -0500 Subject: Dravidian influence on Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <199811180937.KAA08001@lorien.site.cas.cz> Message-ID: <161227042821.23782.3781349328139519068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I read somewhere that "the composition of Sanskrit vocabulary is (Classical Sanskrit) - 70 % non-Aryan, of which > 40 % Dravidian > 30 % Prakrit and only - 30 % Vedic " Unfortunately, no reference was given. Could anybody provide some references supporting or opposing the fractions given above? Thanks. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 19 13:38:40 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 05:38:40 -0800 Subject: Lokayatam material Message-ID: <161227042837.23782.9297482190117924325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The usual analysis of Lokayatam centers around Sarvadarzanasamgraha and Jayaraasi's tattvopaplavasimha. Equally or more ancient materials on Lokayata philosophy exist in Tamil: 1) Manimekalai, a Buddhist epic (around 550 AD) 2) NiilakEci (around 950 AD) and 3) Civa~nAna cittiyAr (1253 AD). They are analyzed in: 1) Ruth Wallden, Materialism as expounded in the MaNimEkalai, the NiilakEci and the CivaJaanacittiyaar Orientalia Suecana 11, Stickholm: 1991, pp. 246-251 Also, see R. Wallden, The presentation of SaaMkhya in the MaNimEkalai. KalyaaNamitraagaNam: Essays in honor of Nls Simonsson, Ed. Eivind Kahrs, Oxford:1986 There is another text by Kavichakravarti JayamkoNTaar written in the second of eleventh century. Called as Kaaraanai Vizupparaiyan MaTal. There are inscriptions of Kaaraanai Vizupparaiyan Adhinaathan, a general of Chola Kulottunga I. This work, in a prabandham genre called vaLamaDal, runs to 550 lines. The entire text has the same second syllable (etukai/prAsam). Very beautiful poetry. Published by Gov. Oriental mss. library, 1994. Jayaraasi's text is really from the sceptic branch of Lokayatam. It does not talk of life generation by the proper mixture of four basic elements, the only heaven is on earth and achievable from women etc., Vizupparaiyan MaDal expounds the basic tenets of materialism in 550 lines very well, not covered by Jayaraasi at all. Manimekalai, Niilakeci, Sarvadarzanasamgraham or Siva~naanasiddhiyaar refute Lokaayatam. On the Lokaayatam viewpoint, Jayaraasi's text is explaining the "sceptic school" while JayamkoNDaar's explains the "materialistic philosophy". This MaDal text is indeed very rare among the entire literatures of India. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 19 14:08:55 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 06:08:55 -0800 Subject: Lokayatam material Message-ID: <161227042839.23782.17369484587290201988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Additional data: JayamkoNTar is the author of Kalingattup ParaNi, a war pirapantam of the Imperial Cholas. Between his two works, paraNi and maDal, there are certain unique phrases, words, expressions in common and found nowhere else in Tamil literature. Parani is in kalit taazicai and MaDal is in kaliveNpaa meter. Working with veNpaa meter along with the same etukai is very difficult for mediocre poets. In my last mail, I wrote Stickholm, The correct name is, of course, Stockholm. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 19 06:13:45 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 11:43:45 +0530 Subject: Venkateshwara Press In-Reply-To: <005001be1321$aca203a0$3adaddd0@krishna_susarla.swmed.edu> Message-ID: <161227042864.23782.10730842396038307428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:30 PM 11/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone know how I might obtain the Venkateshwara Press editions of the >Puraanas in the original Sanskrit? These are the versions which the >translators in the "Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology" series used for >their translations. Unfortunately, their publications are English only; >hence I'm looking for the Sanskrit versions which they used. > >thanks in advance, > >-- Krishna Susarla > >p.s. I am actually planning a trip to India next summer, so if the only way >to get them is through bookstores over there, I would very much appreciate >some names and addresses. > Nov 19, 98 Dear Member, You can contact the Venkateshvar Press people on the following address: Khemraj Shrikrishnadas 66, Hadapsar Industrial Estate Pune 411 013, India Phone/Fax 67 10 25 Best wishes. KSA From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Nov 19 01:10:24 1998 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 12:10:24 +1100 Subject: J.T.F. Jordens address Message-ID: <161227042834.23782.3548831755457076709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Jordens retired some years ago. His home telephone number is: 61-2-6295 9768 A letter sent to him c/o the Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200 Australia would reach him. Richard Barz ANU Canberra Indologists > >Would anyone know of the address, (e-mail or other) of Prof. J.T.F. Jordens >who taught at the Australian National University and who wrote the >definitive English biography of Swami Dayanand Sarasvati? > >With thanks > >Noel Salmond >College of the Humanities >Carleton University >Ottawa, Canada From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Thu Nov 19 11:28:53 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 13:28:53 +0200 Subject: Venkateshwara Press Message-ID: <161227042835.23782.830505857979938366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 18 Nov 98 at 12:30, Krishna Susarla wrote: > Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:30:44 -0600 > Send reply to: Indology > From: Krishna Susarla > Subject: Venkateshwara Press > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Does anyone know how I might obtain the Venkateshwara Press editions of the > Puraanas in the original Sanskrit? These are the versions which the > translators in the "Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology" series used for > their translations. Unfortunately, their publications are English only; > hence I'm looking for the Sanskrit versions which they used. > > thanks in advance, > > -- Krishna Susarla > > p.s. I am actually planning a trip to India next summer, so if the only way > to get them is through bookstores over there, I would very much appreciate > some names and addresses. Nag Publishers in Delhi have published reprints of many of them, perhaps all. Klaus From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Fri Nov 20 00:32:09 1998 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 16:32:09 -0800 Subject: Bodhayana In-Reply-To: <01BE12EA.27A00BC0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227042843.23782.15143415920696905461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anyone have any information if the Bodhayana bhashya on the > Vishishtadvaita philosophy and quoted by Ramanujacharya still exists. I > have tried to find it online but most of the sites say that it has been > destroyed. It does not exist. Some have doubted whether it even existed in full in Ramanuja's time. The traditional biographies make it clear that what Ramanuja procured in Kashmir was an already tattered copy of the vRtti. At the beginning of the SrIbhAshya, his commentary on the vedAnta sUtras, Ramanuja writes that Bodhayana wrote an extensive vRtti on the sUtras which succeeding authors abridged. Based on these (collective) works, Ramanuja writes, he wrote his own commentary on the sUtras. Ramanuja also quotes Bodhayana very sparingly, which is surprising given the importance paid to Bodhayana in the philsophical paramparA of the school. This topic is discussed in detail by J.A.B. van Buitenen in his edition of Ramanuja's Vedarthasangraha, as well as by several traditional scholars. One example of the latter can be found in Chetlur V. Srivatsankachariar's introduction to his edition of Venkatanatha's "Satadushani". Mani From KULIKOV at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Nov 19 20:45:30 1998 From: KULIKOV at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Leonid I. Kulikov) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 21:45:30 +0100 Subject: Kali-tantra Message-ID: <161227042841.23782.5322045635557502073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody knows anything about existing translations of (or studies on) the Kali-Tantra? (Information about other tantras closely related to Kali-T. will also be appreciated) thanks. Leonid Kulikov Leiden University From krishna at TICNET.COM Fri Nov 20 05:15:04 1998 From: krishna at TICNET.COM (Krishna Susarla) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 23:15:04 -0600 Subject: Venkateshwara Press Message-ID: <161227042845.23782.13754920581238806194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm aware of the Nag editions. But I need the ones done by Venkateshwara Press. Or are they exactly identical? -----Original Message----- From: Klaus Karttunen To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:28 AM Subject: Re: Venkateshwara Press On 18 Nov 98 at 12:30, Krishna Susarla wrote: > Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:30:44 -0600 > Send reply to: Indology > From: Krishna Susarla > Subject: Venkateshwara Press > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Does anyone know how I might obtain the Venkateshwara Press editions of the > Puraanas in the original Sanskrit? These are the versions which the > translators in the "Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology" series used for > their translations. Unfortunately, their publications are English only; > hence I'm looking for the Sanskrit versions which they used. > > thanks in advance, > > -- Krishna Susarla > > p.s. I am actually planning a trip to India next summer, so if the only way > to get them is through bookstores over there, I would very much appreciate > some names and addresses. Nag Publishers in Delhi have published reprints of many of them, perhaps all. Klaus From HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Nov 20 06:03:18 1998 From: HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 06:03:18 +0000 Subject: Where will I get Purana books in original Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227042847.23782.10392848567475906287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna Susarla Wrote:------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:30:44 -0600 From: Krishna Susarla Subject: Venkateshwara Press Does anyone know how I might obtain the Venkateshwara Press editions of the Puraanas in the original Sanskrit? These are the versions which the translators in the "Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology" series used for their translations. Unfortunately, their publications are English only; hence I'm looking for the Sanskrit versions which they used. thanks in advance, -- Krishna Susarla p.s. I am actually planning a trip to India next summer, so if the only way to get them is through bookstores over there, I would very much appreciate some names and addresses. -------Hari's reply:----------------------- Dear Krishna, 1 If you are interested in the famous Sri Venkateshawara Steam Press, the address is: Khemaraja Krishnadas Marg, Khethavadi, Mumbai - 400 004 Phone: no. 385 7456 66, Hadpasar Industrial Estate, Pune 411 013, Maharashtra Phone: 671 025 They have branches in Kalyan (Maharashtra), Varanasi (UP) and Delhi. 2 I have their 1997 catalogue which lists a few Maha - & Upa-puranas in the original & with commentary. 3 Another good source for Sanskrit originals of Puranas is- Chaukhamba Samskrutha PrathishThAna of Varanasi. Chaukhamba Vidyabhavan, Chauk (Behind Banaras State Bank Building) P O Box 1069, Varanasi 221 001 (Uttara Pradesha) Phone: 320 40 They have branches in Delhi, and other places, In Delhi: 38 U A , Jawahar Nagar, Bunglow Road, Delhi 110 007 Phone: 236 391 4 Their catalogue, that I have, lists almost all Mahapuranas like - Agni, Kurma, Garuda, Narada, Padma, Brahma, Brahmavaivartha, Brahmanda, Bhavishya, Matsya, Markandeya, Linga, Vamana, Varaha, Vishnu, Shiva, Skanda, Vayu and a few upa-puranas in Sanskrit with / without commentary in Hindi. 5 Nag Publications, 11 A/ U.A. Javahar Nagar, Delhi 110 007 also have quite a few Puranas in Sanskrit original. 6 If you live in USA, say in Philadelphia area, you may even contact/ go & visit: Nataraj Books, Publisher & Distributor of South Asian Books. I have their catalogue listing quite a few major Puranas in Sanskrit with Introduction Edited by Naga Sharan Singh. Address: 7073 Brookfield Plaza, Springfield, VA 22150 eMail: Phone: (703) 455 - 4996 7 Another source, I buy books from is: South Asia Books, PO Box 502, Columbia MO 65205 Phone: (314)474-0116 8 Motilal Banarasidas, 41-UA Bunglow Road, Jawahar Nagar, Delhi - 110 007 Phone: 291 1989; 291 8335, 252 4826 have many branches in all major cities in India. You will get help from them.They have helped me in the past. 9 Last - believe me there are quite a few, but this is enough, now - Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 54 Rani Jhansi Raod, New Delhi 110 055 Good Luck! Sincerely, -Harihareswara PS: Please do not blame me, if the address/phone number has since been changed! ======================================== From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Nov 20 15:01:19 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 10:01:19 -0500 Subject: learning Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042849.23782.16720696282367259018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to find a book which will enable me to learn Sanskrit well enough that I can read our scriptures without much need for translation. In other words, I would want to interpret them myself. I have studied 5 years of Sanskrit from grade 6 to 10th but have now forgotten most of it. Can anyone judge from my level which book will be best suited to learn Sanskrit or do I have to take instructions by enrolling in a school ? I would appreciate any help. Ashish Chandra From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Fri Nov 20 15:37:57 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 10:37:57 -0500 Subject: learning Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042854.23782.17681746347779796942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ashish The book `sa.nskR^ita-vyavahAra-sAhasrI' is published and copyrighted by Pallava Prakashan, Bangalore, India. For more details contact `Aksharam', 8th Cross, Girinagar, Bangalore 560 085 INDIA Ph: 080-6613052, 080-6617276. you can go to the web site ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/#A20 go all the way down the list and there you can find learning tools learning tutorial.html. learning tutorial wikner ...\ .... which can help you to learn. best of luck --krishna Ashish Chandra wrote: > > I am trying to find a book which will enable me to learn Sanskrit well > enough that I can read our scriptures without much need for translation. In > other words, I would want to interpret them myself. I have studied 5 years > of Sanskrit from grade 6 to 10th but have now forgotten most of it. Can > anyone judge from my level which book will be best suited to learn Sanskrit > or do I have to take instructions by enrolling in a school ? I would > appreciate any help. > > Ashish Chandra -- ********************************************************************************* * Krishna Prasad Konduru * * GFX Systems, Merrill Lynch 790, NewArk Avenue * * 16th Floor, World Financial Center, New York Apartment 3F * * Ph: 212-449-5712 (O) Fax : 212-449-6789 (O) Jersey City * * : 201-239-1429 (R) New Jersey 07306 * * Pg: 917-314-3411 * * Be: 1-888-MERRIL0 * ********************************************************************************* From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Nov 20 16:52:27 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 11:52:27 -0500 Subject: Learning Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042858.23782.12217796074930843292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Everyone, I have got a few responses from my earlier query about learning Sanskrit : < I am trying to find a book which will enable me to learn Sanskrit well enough that I can read our scriptures without much need for translation. In other words, I would want to interpret them myself. I have studied 5 years of Sanskrit from grade 6 to 10th but have now forgotten most of it. Can anyone judge from my level which book will be best suited to learn Sanskrit or do I have to take instructions by enrolling in a school ? I would appreciate any help. Ashish Chandra > I forgot to add that I was looking for a book that would have Hindi as the other medium i.e. how a Hindi speaking person can learn Sanskrit. Thanks again in advance Ashish Chandra From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Nov 20 17:07:35 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 12:07:35 -0500 Subject: Venkateshwara Press -Reply Message-ID: <161227042856.23782.9829941337081830666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Susarla, I am separately sending you as attachments to a private message two large Word Perfect files deriving from searches of the OCLC-FirstSearch database. One is from a combination of Title: Puranas and Publisher: Laksmivenkatesvara and the other Title: Puranas and Publisher: Srivenkatesvara. Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4714 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The usual disclaimers apply. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Nov 20 16:36:41 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 16:36:41 +0000 Subject: SV: learning Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042852.23782.3143035600599723909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may find Maurer's book on Skt very useful. Walter Harding Maurer: The Sanskrit Language. An Introductory Grammar and Reader. Curzon Press. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no ---------- Fra: Ashish Chandra[SMTP:achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM] Svar til: Indology Sendt: 20. november 1998 16:01 Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Emne: learning Sanskrit I am trying to find a book which will enable me to learn Sanskrit well enough that I can read our scriptures without much need for translation. In other words, I would want to interpret them myself. I have studied 5 years of Sanskrit from grade 6 to 10th but have now forgotten most of it. Can anyone judge from my level which book will be best suited to learn Sanskrit or do I have to take instructions by enrolling in a school ? I would appreciate any help. Ashish Chandra -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Nov 20 23:55:54 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 18:55:54 -0500 Subject: tiruvIzimizalai temple and kOtukulam Message-ID: <161227042860.23782.11086873933017813697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recently came across inscriptions from the tiruvIzimizalai temple providing clinching evidence to confirm my earlier suggestion that kOtukulam is associated with ziva. According to an inscription of year 1302 AD, there was a deity in the tiruvIzimizalai temple called aruLmukkiya kOtukula nAyakar. The main deity of the temple goes under different names tiruvIzimizalaiyTaiyAr, vIzivan2a nAyaka tEvar, vIzinAtar, etc. One inscription (12th century) mentions a deity antaNIsvaram uTaiyAr in the same temple. Another inscription (11th century) mentions a deity pirammIsvaram uTaiyAr in the same temple. May be a ziva deity in the temple had special legendary association with brahmins (probably ziva brahmins). Or it may be a reference to ziva being considered one of the 3000 ziva brahmins of chidambaram. In any case, the inscriptions reveal that potter scribe/accountants of the town and temple carry the names such as aiJURRuva antANa vELAn2 and ainURRuva antaNap piriyan2. This strange combination of "antaNa" meaning brahmin and "vELAn2" meaning potter/chieftain/landlord suggests that the name "antaNa" may refer to the name of a deity. (A similar case may be subrahmaNya pillai. We also find a name antaNap piraman2 with no explicit caste identification. Could this be a brahmin?) Can anybody shed more light on the legends/traditions associated with deities in tiruvIzimizalai temple? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Nov 21 00:13:26 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 19:13:26 -0500 Subject: JOB POSTING (Chicago) Message-ID: <161227042862.23782.14963668218654615663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job posting is being forwarded to your mailing list of listserv from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact job posters directly as below. DO NOT SEND SUCH QUERIES TO ME or to SARAI. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai =================================================================== Appointment in Hindi The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago invites applications for an assistant professor, tenure-track position in Hindi language and literature, to begin in AY 1999-2000. We are looking for someone with competence and interest in teaching modern Hindi as well as one or more of the pre-modern literary languages of North India, such as Brajbhasa and Avadhi. The position entails the responsibility for periodically teaching humanities courses included in the College's general education curriculum. Applicants are requested to send a detailed letter describing their current research project and teaching interests, a representative sample of their scholarly writing, and three letters of reference by February 1, 1999. The University of Chicago is an Affirmative Action Equal Employment Opportunity employer. Please direct all correspondence to: Hindi Search Committee Dept. of South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago 1130 E. 59th St. Chicago, IL 60637-1543, USA From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Nov 20 18:51:16 1998 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 19:51:16 +0100 Subject: Post in Bochum Message-ID: <161227042872.23782.2440009722141699761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This may be of interest to some of you: (I give the gist of the ad as it is in the original, since a full grasp of German is required anyway): Professur (C3) f?r Indologie zum 1.10.2000 Erwartet wird eine breite, philologisch fundierte Vertretung des Faches Indologie. Bewerberinnen (males included) sollten bereit sein, die Bereiche "Religion, Philosophie, Recht und Gesellschaft unter besonderer Ber?cksichtigung der Wechselbeziehungen zwischen Islam and Hindu- Religionen" und/oder "Rezeption und Darstellung Indiens in Europa" in Kooperation etc... zu vertreten. Voraussetzung: Habilitation oder Gleichwertiges. Frauen ....etc Schwerbehinderte... etc "?bliche Unterlagen" plus Verzeichnis der abgehaltenen Lehrveranstaltungen sowie 1 Exemplar aller Publikationen zum 20.12.98 an Dekan der Fakult?t f?r Philologie Ruhr-Universit?t Bochum D-44780 Bochum Christopher Fynn schrieb: > Subscribers to INDOLOGY who use diacritics for Romanised Indic > text on their web sites (or with Word '97) may be interested > looking at a page I've written on using these characters in > HTML 4.0 with the ISO/IEC 10646 character set: > > > > Regards > > - Chris > > P.S. although I've been very careful on that page to use only > plain HTML 4.0, with no non-standard tags, and verified it - > Netscape 4 occasionally seems to have problems with this page. > IE 4 works fine. > > If you have a browser which doesn't understand HTML 4.0 > tags you should still be able to load the page, though > you won't see the Unicode characters used in the tables > properly. > > -- > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 21 14:13:13 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 98 06:13:13 -0800 Subject: tiruvIzimizalai temple and kOtukulam Message-ID: <161227042870.23782.12256382840878879811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * (A similar case may be subrahmaNya pillai. We also find a name *antaNap piraman2 with no explicit caste identification. Could *this be a brahmin?) In mediaeval times, several brahmins had last names as Pillai. Examples from Srivaishnava community: 1) PeriyavAccaan Pillai 2) Pillai LOkAccAriyAr Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 21 02:56:31 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 98 08:26:31 +0530 Subject: learning Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <01BE146C.B93F27E0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227042866.23782.1521470164607945224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:01 AM 11/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am trying to find a book which will enable me to learn Sanskrit well >enough that I can read our scriptures without much need for translation. In >other words, I would want to interpret them myself. I have studied 5 years >of Sanskrit from grade 6 to 10th but have now forgotten most of it. Can >anyone judge from my level which book will be best suited to learn Sanskrit >or do I have to take instructions by enrolling in a school ? I would >appreciate any help. > >Ashish Chandra > Nov 21, 98 Dear Member, I recommend the following aid for your renewed study of Sanskrit. Sanskrit: An Easy Introduction to an Enchanting Language By Dr. Ashok Aklujkar (University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada) The self-sufficient book is divided into four volumes, supplemented by audio tapes, and priced at US $ 70 for the set. For copies, you can contact Svadhyaya Publications 5346 Opal Place Richmond, B. C., Canada V7C 5B4 Best wishes. KSA From ersand at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Sat Nov 21 11:23:53 1998 From: ersand at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Erik Reenberg Sand) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 98 12:23:53 +0100 Subject: Survey of India Message-ID: <161227042868.23782.11114832352000980814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, In January I tried in vain to purchase some topo-sheets of Pandharpur taluka at the local office of the Survey of India in Pune. The reason I got for not being allowed to buy them was that I needed a permit to take them out of India. Have anyone of you any experience of how and where to get such a permit? Thank you Erik Reenberg Sand From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Sat Nov 21 16:23:32 1998 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 98 17:23:32 +0100 Subject: Ghunyat-ul-Munya, Persian work on Indian Music Message-ID: <161227037779.23782.17460562958657533893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The earliest known Persian work on Indian Music, Ghunyat-ul-Munyat, was published in its origanel language in 1978. Is this work translated to English(or German or...)? Jon. From Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR Sun Nov 22 09:56:50 1998 From: Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR (Boris Oguibenine) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 98 10:56:50 +0100 Subject: New Publication Message-ID: <161227042874.23782.2387129308344086153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INDOLOGY might be interested in knowing about a new book just released by the Kommission fuer zentralasiatische Studien, Bavarian Academy of Sciences (address: Marstallplatz 8, D-80539 Muenchen, Germany): Lexicography in the Indian and Buddhist Cultural Field. Proceedings of the Conference at the University of Strasbourg (25 to 27 April 1996), ed. by Boris Oguibenine, Muenchen, 1998, 170 pp. From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Mon Nov 23 01:59:13 1998 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 02:59:13 +0100 Subject: Lord Krishna's presence in history Message-ID: <161227042876.23782.3625571639253801584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is my first message to this conference. I have reading from many, many scholars and enjoying it. A friend of mine asked me to find out something I have been wondering myself about for years: Lord Krishna stayed with us mayba 160 years, 5000 years ago. He stayed in Mathura, Vrindavan, Dwarka... where can we find books, articles, web-pages... as result of research for proves about his life? Yours, Yashoda devi dasi From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 23 17:28:18 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 09:28:18 -0800 Subject: Dravidian influence on Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042880.23782.2002696418153990635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > Moreover, many of the so-called Dravidian etymologies of > Indo-Aryan words are highly disputable. Interested in references where some words were initially said to be of Dravidian origin, and then shown to be IA, IIr., or IE. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 23 18:51:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 10:51:20 -0800 Subject: Om ---- Amen Message-ID: <161227042883.23782.11346209850793427694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< Parpola, Asko, 1981. On the primary meaning and etymology of the sacred syllable ?m. Pp. 195-213 in: Asko Parpola (ed.), Proceedings of the Nordic South Asia Conference held in Helsinki, June 10-12, 1980. (Studia Orientalia, 50). Helsinki: The Finnish Oriental Society. Summary of the main theses: Original meaning: Om in the Vedic ritual = 'yes', om = tath? = 'yes' also in ordinary conversation, and in the Chandogya Upanishad ?m is expressly said to be a word expressing agreement. Etymology: < Dravidian ?m < ?kum 'yes' < 'it is (fitting, suitable)', ? labialized by the following m as Jaffna Tamil ?m < ?m. >>>> In Tamil, Tirumantiram (5th century) is where Om occurs first. It says Om is a single letter and unique sound (naada). Om en2um OGkaarattuLLE oru mozi - tirumantiram 2676 Om en2um Or ezuttuL nin2Ra Ocai pOl - tirumantiram 2874 KantapuraaNam, a 12th century epic on Murukan legends, says Murukan/SubrahmaNya taught the meaning of Om to Brahma and 'Siva: Murukan teaching Om to Brahma: urai poruL en2a navila, mikaitta kaNkaLai vizittan2an2, veTkin2nan2, vikkit tikaittiruntan2an2, kaNTilan2 ap poruL tiRan2E! - kantapuraaNam 1-16-10 Murukan teaching Om to 'Siva (his father): 'mainta! emakku aruL maRaiyin2' en2n2At tan2 tiruc ceviyai nalkac, caNmukan2 kuTilai en2n2um on2Roru patattin2 uNmai uraittan2nan2. - kantapuraaNam 1-17-39 Murukan is known as "God for his father": takappan cAmi, or svAminAthan. In the 14th century tiruppukazh, Murukan teaches the meaning of Om, the praNavam to 'Siva at more than 50 places. Tiruppukaz, is to Murukan what is seventh century "tEvAram' to 'Siva. AruNagiri, the author of Tiruppukaz, was an expert in Sanskrit. In fact, some tiruppukazs have many Sanskrit words. The rare seamless blending of Sanskrit words in Tamil was never possible before or after him. (See Zvelebil's The Smile of Murugan on Tamil literature for an essay on Arunagiri's talent. For the dates of books, I follow Zvelebil). AruNagirinaathar explicitly says "Om is Tamil; He teaches this to his father!" Example 1: kon2Raic caTaiyaRku on2Rait teriyak KoJcit tamizil pakarvOn2E! "Siva wears red flowers from labernum trees; To him, Murukan explains the unique mantra, Om in Tamil". This occurs in a tiruppukaz starting as "ampotta vizi". This song is of akam/interior type (What her mother said will be the title by A. K. Ramanujan). Example 2: matittut tiNpuram cirittuk kon2RiTum maRattil tantai man2Rilil aaaaTi mazukkaik koNTa caGkararukkuc cen2Ru vaNTamzc col cantam on2Ru aruLvOn2E! "'Siva smiled and killed tripurams; He dances eternally in the sabhaa; To this brave father who sports an axe in a hand, Murukan went. And, he taught 'Siva the unique Tamil word, Om!" This occurs in a tiruppukaz starting as "nitikkup piGkalan2". Does these ancient Tamil legends indicate an awareness that Om is Dravidian? Regards, N. Ganesan Note: will check the tirumuruku aaRRuppatai and paripaaTal, the first full-fledged bhakti texts from India. tirumuruku is on Murukan and ParipaaTal is on Murukan and Tirumaal (Vishnu). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Nov 23 12:27:02 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 12:27:02 +0000 Subject: Venkateswara Press [Edition of the Puranas] (fwd) Message-ID: <161227042878.23782.5842402268423666155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Showing sesitivity towards the issue of advertising directly on the INDOLOGY list, WisdOMbooks sent me the fillowing information: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:25:59 +0530 From: Angelo Pugliese Subject: Venkateswara Press [Edition of the Puranas] [...] We just read in the Indology list a message with the subject: "Venkateshwara Press" sent by Krishna Susarla [krishna at TICNET.COM] We happened to know the information requested: the Venkateshwara Press edition of the original Sanskrit text in Devanagari of all the 18 MahaPuranas [plus some few other ones] is ready available with our services [trough email contact, preferably]. The edition is enriched by a wonderful feature, extremely useful for all researchers and scholars: each Purana contains an index of all the verses contained in its text. We can provide you more information about it, if you may need them. [...] Angelo Pugliese (Managing Director) at ------------------------------------------------------------ WisdOM Books Pvt. Ltd. Phones: +91 (33) 476-4311 or 4313 Regd.Off.: 11/B, Earle St. Fax: +91 (33) 476-4313 or 4311 Calcutta 700026 INDIA E-Mail: admin at WisdOMbooks.com http://www.WisdOMbooks.com ============================================================ From garzilli at SHORE.NET Mon Nov 23 21:57:32 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 22:57:32 +0100 Subject: New Publication Message-ID: <161227042887.23782.15892825266002616625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Congratulation on your new book. My best -- Enrica p.s. May I know its price? Boris Oguibenine wrote: > > INDOLOGY might be interested in knowing about a new book just released by the > > Kommission fuer zentralasiatische Studien, Bavarian Academy of Sciences > (address: Marstallplatz 8, D-80539 Muenchen, Germany): > > Lexicography in the Indian and Buddhist Cultural Field. Proceedings of the > Conference at the University of Strasbourg (25 to 27 April 1996), ed. by > Boris Oguibenine, Muenchen, 1998, 170 pp. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Tue Nov 24 07:30:21 1998 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 07:30:21 +0000 Subject: New publication In-Reply-To: <19981123185122.29511.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227042885.23782.11019756886762266206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Volume LII, 1 (1998) of Asiatische Studien / Etudes Asiatiques came out some weeks ago. It contains the following articles: Johannes Bronkhorst: "Does the Veda have an author? A reply to Professor Stephen H. Phillips." Mahinda Deegalle: "Marathon preachers: the two-pulpit tradition in Sri Lanka." Vincent Eltschinger: "Bhaavaviveka and Dharmakiirti sur aagama et contre la Miimaa.msaa (I)." Victoria Lyssenko: "La connaissance suprarationnelle chez Pra'sastapaada." Sheldon Pollock: "Bhoja's 'S.rngaaraprakaa'sa and the problem of rasa: a historical introduction and annotated translation." Renate Syed: "Objekt des Begehrens - Objekt des Abscheus: zum Bild des weiblichen Koerpers in ausgewaehlten altindischen Texten." Herman Tieken: "The distribution of the absolutive in -uu.na(.m) in Uttarajjhaayaa." The volume further contains a number of book reviews and book notices. Individual issues of the journal can be obtained from the publisher, Peter Lang. Johannes Bronkhorst From ebashir at UMICH.EDU Tue Nov 24 19:50:29 1998 From: ebashir at UMICH.EDU (E. Bashir) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 14:50:29 -0500 Subject: OCR of (transcribed) indic texts In-Reply-To: <365B0B13.1A68@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227042890.23782.18025261418380310728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am also interested in the answers to these questions. If anyone has helpful information on them, please reply to the list. Thanks, E. Bashir, Visiting Lecturer Dept. of Asian Languages and Cultures 3070 Frieze Bldg. The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Office Phone: 734-764-0214 Dept. Phone: 734-764-8286 (messages only) Fax: 734-647-0157 On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Juergen Neuss wrote: > Dear list-members, > maybe some of you are aware of the difficulties which arise if one wants > to scan transcribed (not to speak of original) indic texts. Of course > the scanning itself is not the problem but the subsequent transformation > of the image-file into a text-file by means of OCR (Optical character > recognition) programs. These programs often do recognise only the usual > set of ASCII-characters. Some of them include extended features ehich > means that in certain cases the user may direct the program to read a > certain difficult character in a certain way. As far as I know > diacritical signs are a problem for at least most of these programs. If > anyone of you has experience with OCR programs in this respect I would > be grateful for your recommendations. Moreover I would like to know > whether there are any OCR programs available which recognise Indian > characters of any kind. I hope this message does not provoke any > response which violates the non-commercial spirit of this list. > Thanks for reading. > jn > -- > jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > > > Juergen Neuss > > Freie Universitaet Berlin > > Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte > > K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a > > 14195 Berlin > From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Tue Nov 24 19:37:55 1998 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 20:37:55 +0100 Subject: OCR of (transcribed) indic texts Message-ID: <161227042889.23782.11625321773753254078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, maybe some of you are aware of the difficulties which arise if one wants to scan transcribed (not to speak of original) indic texts. Of course the scanning itself is not the problem but the subsequent transformation of the image-file into a text-file by means of OCR (Optical character recognition) programs. These programs often do recognise only the usual set of ASCII-characters. Some of them include extended features ehich means that in certain cases the user may direct the program to read a certain difficult character in a certain way. As far as I know diacritical signs are a problem for at least most of these programs. If anyone of you has experience with OCR programs in this respect I would be grateful for your recommendations. Moreover I would like to know whether there are any OCR programs available which recognise Indian characters of any kind. I hope this message does not provoke any response which violates the non-commercial spirit of this list. Thanks for reading. jn -- jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a 14195 Berlin From biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU Wed Nov 25 05:17:19 1998 From: biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 00:17:19 -0500 Subject: Learning Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <01BE147C.3F552F00.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227042892.23782.2725241808117732322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One pretty good Hindi medium Sanskrit primer is B.rhad Anuv.ada Candrik.a - published by Motilal Banarsidass. Loriliai Biernacki University of Pennsylvania According to Ashish Chandra: > > Hello Everyone, > > I have got a few responses from my earlier query about learning Sanskrit : > > < > I am trying to find a book which will enable me to learn Sanskrit well > enough that I can read our scriptures without much need for translation. In > other words, I would want to interpret them myself. I have studied 5 years > of Sanskrit from grade 6 to 10th but have now forgotten most of it. Can > anyone judge from my level which book will be best suited to learn Sanskrit > or do I have to take instructions by enrolling in a school ? I would > appreciate any help. > Ashish Chandra > > > > I forgot to add that I was looking for a book that would have Hindi as the > other medium i.e. how a Hindi speaking person can learn Sanskrit. > > Thanks again in advance > > Ashish Chandra > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Nov 25 06:13:35 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 01:13:35 -0500 Subject: Questions on word-final vowels in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042895.23782.17253290614265878348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some of the words borrowed from Sanskrit into Tamil give information about how Tamils perceived the pronunciation of some Sanskrit sounds. (If there was no difference between their representation in Tamil, their perception of the Sanskrit sound and the Sanskrit sound in reality, then it might say something about the pronunciation of Sanskrit itself in Tamilnadu more than 1100 years ago.) An analysis of pairs of words where most IA scholars agree on the direction of borrowing as from Dravidian into Sanskrit suggest that the converse may also be true. Consider the following. The word-final "a" in Sanskrit seems to have been perceived by Tamils in many cases as close to the extra-short "u" in Tamil. For instance, the word "soma" in Sanskrit has been rendered by periyAzvar as "cOmu" in the following line. tUya nAn2maRaiyALar cOmuc ceyya (Periya tirumoLi 2.10.1.6 or nAl. 1138.6) (translation: with the pure ones of the four vedas performing soma) Another interesting case seems to be where Sanskrit "kapAla" is rendered in Tamil as "kapAl" as shown below. vaittavan2 kapAl micai (tiruccanta viruttam 42.4 or nAl. 793.4) (translation: having placed on his skull) This seems to be very unusual. Normally, one would expect "kapAlam". The absence of any sound after "l" in the Tamil word suggests that the Sanskrit final "a" was so imperceptible as to justify removing it altogether. Alternatively, one could interpret it as the author hearing it as "kapAlu" and removing the final "u" to make it sound literary. (Many literary Tamil words are pronounced colloquially with an enunciative vowel often represented as extra-short "u".) Interestingly, there are Sanskrit words accepted by Indo-European scholars as borrowing from Dravidian which show a final "a" while the equivalent Tamil forms have final extra-short "u" or expected to have an enunciative "u" colloquially as shown by the pair, Sanskrit karambha and Tamil kuzampu or Sanskrit kuvalaya and Tamil kuvaLai (equivalent in pronunciation to kuvaLay). (This does not mean Sanskrit word was borrowed from Tamil.) I would like more information on the pronunciation of word-final vowels in Sanskrit and what happened to them in MIA and NIA? Is there any research on the presence or absence of enunciative vowels and their conditioning in Sanskrit? Why is there such a mapping between Sanskrit -a and Tamil zero/extra-short u? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Nov 25 06:21:29 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 01:21:29 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation of vocalic R in south India Message-ID: <161227042896.23782.18148597343956942335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a posting last year related to Jayadeva, Jakub Cejka wrote "As I have underlined above, I wrote vocalic R *was* pronounced 'ri' in Orissa. Of course I know it is not so now. I have checked this with an Oriya scholar ?. He informed me that "ru" pronounciation (together with other southern influences) came later on to Orissa (evidence is in inscriptions." There is some evidence showing that the pronunciation of vocalic R as "ri" was not unknown in Tamilnadu around 9th century AD as shown below. ciliGkArattAl kuzal tAza viTTu (PeriyAzvAr tirumozi 3.4.9.3) Here the Sanskrit word zRGgAra is rendered in Tamil as ciliGkAram. If one allows for the usual r-l alternation, cannot one can postulate that R > ri > li? Regards S. Palaniappan From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Wed Nov 25 10:44:15 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 05:44:15 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045615.23782.11216196949495930893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tragedy, eh ? Well, we Hindus are getting used to it. In case you haven't noticed, Hindus are being massacred every day. But they don't get burnt in cars - most of them don't own cars, you see.. Here are some pictures for you: http://www.kashmir-information.com/Atrocities/ Sumedh, Your remark sounds rather flippant - like you don't care about what happened to that Australian missionary and his family, I hope that is not the case. I know the tragedies of Kashmir, but Hindus getting killed in Kashmir, does not justify hindus killing Christians elsewhere in the country. We as humans, should fight against both atrocities. Terrorists also burnt many churches in Kashmir. Sujatha From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 25 13:53:02 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 05:53:02 -0800 Subject: Questions on word-final vowels in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042904.23782.5457196416513123944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Another interesting case seems to be where Sanskrit "kapAla" is *rendered in Tamil as "kapAl" as shown below. *vaittavan2 kapAl micai * (tiruccanta viruttam 42.4 or nAl. 793.4) *(translation: having placed on his skull) Does this have anything to do with metrics? May be, the sandha viruttam does not allow "kapAlamicai". So, the AzvAr uses "kapAlmicai"?? Indeed, many IA words come into Tamil via Prakrit. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Nov 25 11:34:38 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 06:34:38 -0500 Subject: Questions on word-final vowels in Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042900.23782.1233877446901324567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One possibility to consider is that Sanskrit words passed into Tamil through their somewhat Prakrit-like pronunciation. In many Prakrits, the nominative singular of Sanskrit (masc.) words in -a ends in -o. This o vowel is often reduced to u. One can see this already in Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit continuing all the way into Old Marathi of JnAnezvar in the 13th century A.D. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Some of the words borrowed from Sanskrit into Tamil give information about how > Tamils perceived the pronunciation of some Sanskrit sounds. (If there was no > difference between their representation in Tamil, their perception of the > Sanskrit sound and the Sanskrit sound in reality, then it might say something > about the pronunciation of Sanskrit itself in Tamilnadu more than 1100 years > ago.) An analysis of pairs of words where most IA scholars agree on the > direction of borrowing as from Dravidian into Sanskrit suggest that the > converse may also be true. > > Consider the following. > > The word-final "a" in Sanskrit seems to have been perceived by Tamils in many > cases as close to the extra-short "u" in Tamil. For instance, the word "soma" > in Sanskrit has been rendered by periyAzvar as "cOmu" in the following line. > > tUya nAn2maRaiyALar cOmuc ceyya (Periya tirumoLi 2.10.1.6 or nAl. 1138.6) > > (translation: with the pure ones of the four vedas performing soma) > > Another interesting case seems to be where Sanskrit "kapAla" is rendered in > Tamil as "kapAl" as shown below. > > vaittavan2 kapAl micai (tiruccanta viruttam 42.4 or > nAl. 793.4) > > (translation: having placed on his skull) > > This seems to be very unusual. Normally, one would expect "kapAlam". The > absence of any sound after "l" in the Tamil word suggests that the Sanskrit > final "a" was so imperceptible as to justify removing it altogether. > Alternatively, one could interpret it as the author hearing it as "kapAlu" and > removing the final "u" to make it sound literary. (Many literary Tamil words > are pronounced colloquially with an enunciative vowel often represented as > extra-short "u".) > > Interestingly, there are Sanskrit words accepted by Indo-European scholars as > borrowing from Dravidian which show a final "a" while the equivalent Tamil > forms have final extra-short "u" or expected to have an enunciative "u" > colloquially as shown by the pair, Sanskrit karambha and Tamil kuzampu or > Sanskrit kuvalaya and Tamil kuvaLai (equivalent in pronunciation to kuvaLay). > (This does not mean Sanskrit word was borrowed from Tamil.) > > I would like more information on the pronunciation of word-final vowels in > Sanskrit and what happened to them in MIA and NIA? Is there any research on > the presence or absence of enunciative vowels and their conditioning in > Sanskrit? Why is there such a mapping between Sanskrit -a and Tamil > zero/extra-short u? > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Nov 25 11:53:48 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 06:53:48 -0500 Subject: Info on Nirukta edns needed In-Reply-To: <365BE066.610474AB@public.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227042902.23782.11967690567548381745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ashok, I do have the Jivananda Vidyasagara edition of Nirukta. The first part, published in 1891 contains DevarAjayajvan's commentary and Durga's commentary on the first 6 chapters. I think that the NighaNTu part was originally Part I, and I assume that the Nirukta chapters were included as Part II, though they are bound in one volume. I think this to be the case because the remaining chapters of Nirukta (uttaraSaTka) are printed as part III (printed in 1891). Interestingly, the title page of Part I does not say that this is a second edition, but the title page of Part III says so. There is no title page available for part II in my copy. I do not see any mention of Satyavrat Samasrami in these volumes. They are not published in a particular series, but are printed in Calcutta in Sarasvati printing press. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > I need information on the following editions of Yaaska's Nirukta. Whatever > information I could piece together from the sources available to me has been > given below. The aspects regarding which I could not get the usual information > are marked with "xx". > > I have access to the first edn of Satyavrata Samasrami's edition published in > the Bibliotheca Indica series. M. B. Emeneau 1935:37 [= page 37 of his _A > Union List of Printed Indic ...] lists: "... 2nd ed. Revised by Hitavrata > Samakantha. 2 > fasc., 296. ... 1911. Bibl. Ind. work 89, nos. 1239, 1317." This is confirmed > in L. Renou's _Bibliographie Vedique_ p. 92 with "Nouv. ed. '11-'12 rev. > Hiravrata Somakantha." [Note the difference in the spelling of the last word > from Emeneau's]. Do any of the Indology members have access to this edn and > would they kindly inform me about the spelling of the editor's name as it > appears on the title pages? I would also like to know if the editor mentions > the areas in which he has revised Samasrami's edn, if he has used any new mss > and if he includes all parts of Samasrami's edn, including the concluding > essay and indices called Niruktaalocana. > > Two edns by Jivananda/Jibananda Vidyasagara (an important figure in the > history of propagation of Skt studies) are also mentioned in my sources. They > are invariably described as a reproduction or copy of Samasrami's edn. > However, it is not specified if they reproduce Samasrami's (a) annotation, (b) > edn of Deva-raaja-yajvan's Nigha.n.tu-bhaa.sya, and (c) Niruktalocana. Nor is > the date of the first edn given. The exact title, series specification, if > any, etc. are also the aspects regarding which I would like to be informed. As > there is no mention of these editions in Emeneau or Renou, it seems that their > copies probably did not reach North America and Europe at least until the > 1930's, > > This is the extent of my information on Jivananda's edns: > 18xx. Ed. J^v?nanda = J^v?nanda-vidy?s?gara-bha???c?rya. Exact title?xx. > Publisher: Calcutta:?xx. As those referring to the second edn speak of it as > containing Durga's comm, I surmise that the first edn also contained Durga's > comm. > 1891.Second edn. Exact title?xx. Calcutta:?xx. Includes Durga's comm. > > Thanks for your attention to this request. -- ashok aklujkar > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 25 18:26:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 10:26:24 -0800 Subject: Muulavaasa Lokanaatha Message-ID: <161227042908.23782.9232321501149292324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The historians, K. A. Nilakanta Sastri and T. A. Gopinatha Rao say that an avalokitesvara was discovered by M. Foucher in Gandhara region. It had an inscription, "dakSiNApatho mUlavAsa lokanAtha". Muulavaasam Buddhist monastery was in today's Kerala, few miles from Potiyil in the Malaya mountains. Where this Lokanatha is published? In one of Alfred Foucher's books?? Thanks for the help in advance. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Nov 25 10:48:07 1998 From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 10:48:07 +0000 Subject: Info on Nirukta edns needed Message-ID: <161227042898.23782.16106570625970780001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need information on the following editions of Yaaska's Nirukta. Whatever information I could piece together from the sources available to me has been given below. The aspects regarding which I could not get the usual information are marked with "xx". I have access to the first edn of Satyavrata Samasrami's edition published in the Bibliotheca Indica series. M. B. Emeneau 1935:37 [= page 37 of his _A Union List of Printed Indic ...] lists: "... 2nd ed. Revised by Hitavrata Samakantha. 2 fasc., 296. ... 1911. Bibl. Ind. work 89, nos. 1239, 1317." This is confirmed in L. Renou's _Bibliographie Vedique_ p. 92 with "Nouv. ed. '11-'12 rev. Hiravrata Somakantha." [Note the difference in the spelling of the last word from Emeneau's]. Do any of the Indology members have access to this edn and would they kindly inform me about the spelling of the editor's name as it appears on the title pages? I would also like to know if the editor mentions the areas in which he has revised Samasrami's edn, if he has used any new mss and if he includes all parts of Samasrami's edn, including the concluding essay and indices called Niruktaalocana. Two edns by Jivananda/Jibananda Vidyasagara (an important figure in the history of propagation of Skt studies) are also mentioned in my sources. They are invariably described as a reproduction or copy of Samasrami's edn. However, it is not specified if they reproduce Samasrami's (a) annotation, (b) edn of Deva-raaja-yajvan's Nigha.n.tu-bhaa.sya, and (c) Niruktalocana. Nor is the date of the first edn given. The exact title, series specification, if any, etc. are also the aspects regarding which I would like to be informed. As there is no mention of these editions in Emeneau or Renou, it seems that their copies probably did not reach North America and Europe at least until the 1930's, This is the extent of my information on Jivananda's edns: 18xx. Ed. J^v?nanda = J^v?nanda-vidy?s?gara-bha???c?rya. Exact title?xx. Publisher: Calcutta:?xx. As those referring to the second edn speak of it as containing Durga's comm, I surmise that the first edn also contained Durga's comm. 1891.Second edn. Exact title?xx. Calcutta:?xx. Includes Durga's comm. Thanks for your attention to this request. -- ashok aklujkar From roheko at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Nov 25 12:06:48 1998 From: roheko at T-ONLINE.DE (Rolf Koch) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 13:06:48 +0100 Subject: OCR of (transcribed) indic texts Message-ID: <161227042906.23782.15546245697063005683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I use an old version of the program RECOGNITA. Only this old one allows it to change the recogn.fon-file. Using a programm to edit FON-files I could change the model for the whole RECOGNITA programm. Now the programm can read all Indian diacritics like N. M etc. The latest versions of RECOGNITA never uses FON either TTF files, so it is never possible to use it for our purposes. In any way the old RECOGNITA with the edited FON-file (that is the model for the OCR process) works well, for example I am scanning at the moment books like DIE LEHRE DER JAINAS from Schubring. It is not possible to copy the RECOGNITA programm. Search in the INTERNET for this company. Ask for an old version with an editable FON-file (recogn.fon is the exact name). You may also change this file in a way to read devanagari-manuscripts. roheko at t-online.de Juergen Neuss wrote: > Dear list-members, > maybe some of you are aware of the difficulties which arise if one wants > to scan transcribed (not to speak of original) indic texts. Of course > the scanning itself is not the problem but the subsequent transformation > of the image-file into a text-file by means of OCR (Optical character > recognition) programs. These programs often do recognise only the usual > set of ASCII-characters. Some of them include extended features ehich > means that in certain cases the user may direct the program to read a > certain difficult character in a certain way. As far as I know > diacritical signs are a problem for at least most of these programs. If > anyone of you has experience with OCR programs in this respect I would > be grateful for your recommendations. Moreover I would like to know > whether there are any OCR programs available which recognise Indian > characters of any kind. I hope this message does not provoke any > response which violates the non-commercial spirit of this list. > Thanks for reading. > jn > -- > jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > Juergen Neuss > > Freie Universitaet Berlin > > Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte > > K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a > > 14195 Berlin From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 26 03:45:13 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 08:45:13 +0500 Subject: Learning Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <199811250517.AAA24001@ccat.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227042933.23782.12913128470017486944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A set of graded books published by the Saral Sanskrit Pariksha Vibhag of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan are good and are available in many of the Indian Languages incuding Hindi. Thay are relatively cheap. Details can be obtained from to that section of the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. They are available in English medium also. regards, sarma. At 12:17 AM 11/25/98 -0500, you wrote: > I forgot to add that I was looking for a book that would have Hindi as the > other medium i.e. how a Hindi speaking person can learn Sanskrit. > > Thanks again in advance > > Ashish Chandra > > > From pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH Thu Nov 26 09:47:05 1998 From: pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH (Peter Schreiner) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 10:47:05 +0100 Subject: OCR of (transcribed) indic texts In-Reply-To: <365B0B13.1A68@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227042912.23782.453507478498164257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear J. Neuss and list-members, Concerning the request for information about OCR I may mention that I used an (expensive!!) programme called proLektor (by improx GmbH, Rennweg 83, A-2345 Brunn am Gebirge) to skan the Sanskrit-Deutsches Woerterbuch by K. Mylius (cf. my project report in "Langue, style et structure dans le monde indien : Centenaire de Louis Renou", ed. N. Balbir et G.-J. Pinault, Paris 1996, p. 413-426). The programme has to be "taught" what to interpret (any pattern surrounded by white space); the distinction of small i, capital I, small l, numeral 1 in normal and bold fonts remained a problem. When used in "interactive" mode I had to enter ca. 100 letters per page (out of ca. 4000). The result is far from error free. I tested the programme with Gujarati text which works alright (but I did not skan enough text to be able to say whether manual transliteration would be not MUCH slower but less error prone). Mr. Neuss, please keep me informed about your experiences and other feed-back addressed to you directly. With thanks and best wishes, Peter Schreiner Abt. fuer Indologie Universitaet Zuerich Raemistr. 68 CH-8001 Zuerich ======== At 20:37 24.11.98 +0100, you wrote: >Dear list-members, >maybe some of you are aware of the difficulties which arise if one wants >to scan transcribed (not to speak of original) indic texts. Of course >the scanning itself is not the problem but the subsequent transformation >of the image-file into a text-file by means of OCR (Optical character >recognition) programs. These programs often do recognise only the usual >set of ASCII-characters. Some of them include extended features ehich >means that in certain cases the user may direct the program to read a >certain difficult character in a certain way. As far as I know >diacritical signs are a problem for at least most of these programs. If >anyone of you has experience with OCR programs in this respect I would >be grateful for your recommendations. Moreover I would like to know >whether there are any OCR programs available which recognise Indian >characters of any kind. I hope this message does not provoke any >response which violates the non-commercial spirit of this list. >Thanks for reading. >jn >-- >jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > > >Juergen Neuss > >Freie Universitaet Berlin > >Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte > >K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a > >14195 Berlin > From pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH Thu Nov 26 09:54:07 1998 From: pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH (Peter Schreiner) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 10:54:07 +0100 Subject: New book on satii Message-ID: <161227042914.23782.5007003295658435702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, the following new publication from Zuerich may be of interest to the list; I forward a brief description of its contents: >Joerg Fisch: Toedliche Rituale. Die indische Witwenverbrennung und andere >Formen der Totenfolge. Frankfurt a.M., New York: Campus Verlag 1998, 576 pp. > >This ist not only the most comprehensive historical account of sati to be >published so far, but it also puts sati for the first time into the wider >context of related customs all over the world. Totenfolge (following the >dead) means living individuals accompanying deceased persons voluntarily or >involuntarily into the hereafter. It is usually connected both with >religious beliefs about a future life and with power relationships which >force or induce one category of people to accompany another category. > >The first part of the book deals with Totenfolge outside India, for example >widow-burning in Bali, widow-strangling on the South Pacific Islands, >burying alive courtiers in China and Africa or sending messengers to famous >dead persons in Africa and Southeast Asia. > >The second part concentrates on sati. While it deals with all aspects of >the custom, historical analysis is at the center. There is no discernible >origin, but the gradual extension of the custom in India seems obvious. The >fact that the British administered sati for a few years before they >prohibited it has led to a unique body of sources which allows a detailed >sociological analysis of the custom, showing that it was comparatively rare >but occurred in all areas of India and in all social and age groups. > >The last chapter of the book analyzes the origin of the famous prohibition >of sati in 1829, showing that it was neither forced upon the British >administration from outside nor the result of a lonely decision of Lord >William Bentinck but the result of growing opposition inside the >administration by the Company's servants who refused to administer a custom >incompatible with their own moral views. The book thus also becomes a study >of the administrative limits of cultural relativism. > >Prof. Dr. Joerg Fisch >Historisches Seminar der Universitaet Zuerich >Karl Schmid-Str. 4, CH-8006 Zuerich/Switzerland >Tel: +41-(0)1-634 38 66 Fax: +41-(0)1-634 49 13 >Internet: hssek at hist.unizh.ch > > > From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 26 05:50:49 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 11:20:49 +0530 Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227042923.23782.7672577829153754712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nov 26, 1998 Dear Members, I have been studying and teaching works of the great Shankaracharya for more than four decades. During all these years I have felt that two kinds of aids would be extremely helpful to those who study Shankaracharya seriously: (1) A Dictionary of all important words in his philosophical works explaining them on the basis of their use in his works with full references to the texts; (cp. A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar by K. V. Abhyankar et al) (2) An anthology of select passages from his works, accompanied by their English translation, as a direct introduction to his philosophy. I do not know if any scholar of Shankara has thought or worked in this direction. Can any member enlighten me on this point? Regards. KSA From Jayant.Bapat at ARTS.MONASH.EDU.AU Thu Nov 26 01:01:45 1998 From: Jayant.Bapat at ARTS.MONASH.EDU.AU (Jayant Bapat) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 12:01:45 +1100 Subject: GIFT COPIES OF THE HISTORY OF MARATHI GRAMMAR Message-ID: <161227042910.23782.12197416523230845637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Arjunwadkar Thank you for your email of Nov.19. I am asking my relative Mr. S.P. Joshi of Pune to collect the book on my behalf. He will arrange to send it to me with a friend who is currently in India. Kindest regards Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr Jayant B Bapat Phone(ah):61-3-9886-3585 Chemistry Department Fax(ah):61-3-9884-4055 Monash University e-mail:jayant.bapat at arts.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Nov 26 14:23:42 1998 From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 14:23:42 +0000 Subject: Info on Nirukta edns Message-ID: <161227042916.23782.17149828601180513794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Madhav, Many thanks. The information you have so carefully supplied regarding Jivananda's edn makes it likely that there were really no two edns and that the mention of "second edn" in part III is inaccurate (or not intended in the conventional sense of the phrase; see below). To have three parts published in 1891 and a second edition too in the same year (even if the second edn was confined to part III) seems highly unlikely . The improbability increases when one realises that Samasrami's edn, on which Jivananda draws according to at least two independent sources, was completed in four vols published in 1882, 1885, 1886 and 1891. The completion of the Samasrami edn thus coincides with that of Jivananda's (entire) edn. Maybe, "second edn" is supposed to mean 'other than the one Samasrami just completed' for the Bibliotheca Indica series. You write: >I think that the NighaNTu part was originally Part I, and I assume that the Nirukta chapters were included as Part II, though they are bound in one volume.... There is no title page available for part II in my copy.< This guess seems correct. In Samsrami's edn too, the Nigha.n.tu with DR's comm is vol. 1. Vol. 2 contains the Nirukta and Durga's comm (from the beginning to the end of adhyaaya 4). However, the title of that vol does not reflect this fact at all. It continues with the same title as in vol. 1. Probably, therefore, the thought ofpart 2 occurred to Jivananda (or his assistant) after the title page of what was supposed to be part/vol 1 was printed and there was never a separate title page for part 2 (in other words, nothing is probably missing from your bound vol. 1) What Jivananda seems to have done, as he has done in many of his other edns, is to give a less expensive and more conveniently divided book (he preserves the *a?ka division whereas Samasrami does not) based on someone else's editing of the text. His is divided into two vols instead of Samasrami's four. His is printed at the Sarasvati Printing Press, whereas Samasrami's is printed at the European-run Baptist Mission Press. This might have been done through a formal or informal agreement, but, as we know, taking over of a text established by someone is a very common phenomenon in Sanskrit-Prakrit studies. Very commonly, this is done without even an acknowledgement. Jivananda's mission was to take the texts to the people. ('If Y?ska, DR and Durga did not receive any royalties, why should Samasrami?'). His publications are the equivalents of pocket books and paperbacks of our times (with some differences, of course). Madhav Deshpande wrote: > I do have the Jivananda Vidyasagara edition of Nirukta. The first > part, published in 1891 contains DevarAjayajvan's commentary and Durga's > commentary on the first 6 chapters. I think that the NighaNTu part was > originally Part I, and I assume that the Nirukta chapters were included as > Part II, though they are bound in one volume. I think this to be the case > because the remaining chapters of Nirukta (uttaraSaTka) are printed as > part III (printed in 1891). Interestingly, the title page of Part I does > not say that this is a second edition, but the title page of Part III says > so. There is no title page available for part II in my copy. I do not > see any mention of Satyavrat Samasrami in these volumes. They are not > published in a particular series, but are printed in Calcutta in Sarasvati > printing press.< From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Nov 26 15:27:49 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 15:27:49 +0000 Subject: OCR of (transcribed) indic texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042919.23782.15890584706618210403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This subject has been discussed before in INDOLOGY, and you may find information by scanning the archives with keywords like "OCR" or "KDEM" or "Kurzweil" or "Ingalls". The last discussion was some time ago, and things may have moved on, of course. Anyone got any piping hot new information? All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 27 02:04:58 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 18:04:58 -0800 Subject: Information about degrees Message-ID: <161227042925.23782.948452392695408612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, I would like information on the following degrees that were granted in India/England in the early part of this century.. 1. What is the full form of the medical degree M.B.C.M? I think this corresponds to modern M.B.B.S(India) and was given in India in the begining part of this century.. 2. With respect to Archealogy, can anybody give me information about "M.R.A.S"..I think it stands for "Member of the Royal Archealogical Society" but am not sure..If this is the case, I would like to know whether it is a peer-recognition ( as in say, Fellowship of the Royal Society) or is it a degree which could be obtained through passing an examination i.e. analogous to the M.R.C.P( Member of the Royal College of Physicians)... Looking forward to your help and suggestions.. Regards. Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Thu Nov 26 19:12:29 1998 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 20:12:29 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Subject: Re: OCR of (transcribed) indic texts] Message-ID: <161227042921.23782.2873112005216413145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apart from the messages we all found in our mailbox I received the following message, which might be of interest for other members too: -- jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a 14195 Berlin -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 2393 URL: From herrge at GEOCITIES.COM Fri Nov 27 06:22:51 1998 From: herrge at GEOCITIES.COM (Richard Gendron) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 01:22:51 -0500 Subject: Buddhist prayer or poem by Tagore ? Message-ID: <161227042929.23782.4173801485341154981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Laura Fiori wrote in Buddha-L : BODHISATTVA'S PRAYER Let me not pray to be sheltered from dangers but to be fearless in facing them. Let me not beg for the stilling of my pain but for the heart to conquer it. Let me not look to allies in life?s battlefields but to my own strength. Let me not crave in anxious fear to be saved but hope for patience to win my freedom. Can someone tell me what its source is? I thought it might be the Bodhicharyavatara, but couldn't locate it in the text. Thanks, laura jonathan lawson responded : Laura, I think the poem you mention is "Fruit Gathering" by Rabindranath Tagore. Anybody on this list knows the exact source ? Thanks, Richard _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Anthropologie, Ecologie, Sante - Health, Ecology, Anthropology http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/canopy/2653 _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ __/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ herrge at geocities.com From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 27 10:31:39 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 02:31:39 -0800 Subject: Q:Dehatmavada of Badarinath Sukla Message-ID: <161227042931.23782.7147658599628458752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, more than 10 years ago Badarinath Sukla, a great naiyayika, propounded his theory of dehatmavada at the conference of scholars held at Sarnath. The text of report has been translated into English and published in Journal of Indian Council of Philosophical Research, Vol.5, No3, 1988 under the title "Dehaatmavaada or the body as soul: exploration of a possibility within Nyaaya thought". In this connection I'd like to know whether the original text of the report (in sanskrit) has ever been published or not. Besides, this theory because of its originality must have caused lively discussion, so I'd like also to know of articles related to dehatmavada. Could you help me find relevant references? I'll be very grateful for any useful information. Sincerely Yours Dmitry Olenev _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From gkb at ICARUS.UOM.AC.MU Fri Nov 27 05:20:24 1998 From: gkb at ICARUS.UOM.AC.MU (Girish Kumar Beeharry) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 09:20:24 +0400 Subject: Information about degrees Message-ID: <161227042927.23782.17122096025487965989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >2. With respect to Archealogy, can anybody give me information about >"M.R.A.S"..I think it stands for "Member >of the Royal Archealogical Society" but am not sure..If this is the >case, I would like to know whether it is a peer-recognition >( as in say, Fellowship of the Royal Society) or is it a degree which >could be obtained through passing an examination i.e. analogous to the >M.R.C.P( Member of the Royal College of Physicians)... As far as I know MRAS stands for member of 'Member of the Royal Astronomical Society'. It has its main office in Saville Row (near Regent St). The URL is at: http://www.ras.org.uk/ras/index.html There are also Royal Astronomical Societies in Canada and New Zealand. Best wishes, Girish Kumar Beeharry From george9252 at MSN.COM Fri Nov 27 14:30:13 1998 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 09:30:13 -0500 Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227042937.23782.7802498643910567338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Response to K.S. Arjunwadkhar re: aids to the study of Shankaracharya: I have included substantial and "reader-friendly" selections (rendered in English only) from the Brahmasutra commentaries of both Shamkara and Ramanuja in my SIX CLASSICS OF EASTERN PHILOSOPHY (Harcourt Brace, 1998, ISBN 0-15-567749-7). This anthology is intended as an introduction to eastern philosophical classics for students at the undergraduate level and for general readers. It is not aimed at the scholarly community, but you might find it of some interest. -----Original Message----- From: K. S. Arjunwadkar To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 8:37 PM Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya >Nov 26, 1998 > >Dear Members, >I have been studying and teaching works of the great Shankaracharya for >more than four decades. During all these years I have felt that two kinds >of aids would be extremely helpful to those who study Shankaracharya >seriously: >(1) A Dictionary of all important words in his philosophical works >explaining them on the basis of their use in his works with full references >to the texts; (cp. A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar by K. V. Abhyankar et al) >(2) An anthology of select passages from his works, accompanied by their >English translation, as a direct introduction to his philosophy. >I do not know if any scholar of Shankara has thought or worked in this >direction. >Can any member enlighten me on this point? >Regards. >KSA > From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Fri Nov 27 13:27:13 1998 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 14:27:13 +0100 Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042935.23782.6660610835859445627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > Nov 26, 1998 > > Dear Members, > I have been studying and teaching works of the great Shankaracharya for > more than four decades. During all these years I have felt that two kinds > of aids would be extremely helpful to those who study Shankaracharya > seriously: > (1) A Dictionary of all important words in his philosophical works > explaining them on the basis of their use in his works with full references > to the texts; (cp. A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar by K. V. Abhyankar et al) > (2) An anthology of select passages from his works, accompanied by their > English translation, as a direct introduction to his philosophy. > I do not know if any scholar of Shankara has thought or worked in this > direction. > Can any member enlighten me on this point? > Regards. > KSA > As for point 2) You can refer to: Anthony J. Alston, *A /SaMkara Source Book*, 6 volls., Shanti Sadan, London 1986-1993 (I am not sure about the dates of publication). The passages are all translated into English, and no original sankrit is quoted. The reference edition is Gita Press unless otherwise specified. The volumes are thematical, one being derived to the polemic with rival schools, another to the concept of the soul, and so on. As far as I know Alston is a pupil of Hari Prasad Shastri. Best regards, Alberto Pelissero From sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM Fri Nov 27 20:51:31 1998 From: sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM (Shauna Singh Baldwin) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 14:51:31 -0600 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042938.23782.18383769157109565637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Historians on Indology: I would appreciate your assistance as I edit a novel, What the Body Remembers, scheduled for publication in Sept 1999, re the following question: Is there a consensus among historians about the Aryan invasion of India that was taught when I was in high school in India in the seventies? Lately I've been hearing more discussion about the "Myth of the Aryan Invasion" (there is a book by that name, published by Voice of India in 1995), saying that Max Mueller in particular dated the Aryan invasion at 3500 BC because of the prevailing Christian myth that the world was created in 4004 BC at 4 pm (!), that the Aryan *language and colorism/ideas of varna* may have mixed with Indian language and culture via the passes, but that the Aryan *people* were not a tribe from the Caucasus, but were *indigenous* to India. Bhagwan Gidwani's 1997 novel, "Return of the Aryans," is premised on this theory. Another book, "In Search of the Cradle of Civilization," also a 1995 Voice of India publication, says, I believe (I haven't yet read this book myself, however) that the Aryans did invade, only they came not from the Caucasus but from Persia. How rigorous is the scholarship and does it stand behind the hypotheses? Do you think, as the reviewers of these writers seem to, that the story was a myth concocted by the English to create a tie between the Brahmins and themselves? The "white Brahmin" idea? Or do you feel these people who say the Aryan invasion was a myth are indulging in wishful thinking? Where does the historical evidence point? Has there been carbon dating of archeological remains at Taxila, Harappa, Moenjodaro, for instance? What does it reveal? Perhaps you have already discussed these new theories on Indology. If so, please point me to the website where I may find the archives with discussion on this topic. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Shauna Singh Baldwin From emstern at NNI.COM Fri Nov 27 23:56:49 1998 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 18:56:49 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? In-Reply-To: <365F10D3.6C98B5FD@execpc.com> Message-ID: <161227042940.23782.16097941077308503908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Historians on Indology: >I would appreciate your assistance as I edit a novel, What the Body >Remembers, scheduled for publication in Sept 1999, re the following >question: > >Is there a consensus among historians about the Aryan invasion of India >that was taught when I was in high school in India in the seventies? >Lately I've been hearing more discussion about >the "Myth of the Aryan Invasion" (there is a book by that name, >published by Voice >of India in 1995), saying that Max Mueller in particular dated the Aryan >invasion at >3500 BC because of the prevailing Christian myth that the world was >created in >4004 BC at 4 pm (!), that the Aryan *language and colorism/ideas of >varna* may have >mixed with Indian language and culture via the passes, but that the >Aryan *people* >were not a tribe from the Caucasus, but were *indigenous* to India. >Bhagwan Gidwani's 1997 novel, "Return of the Aryans," is premised on >this theory. Another book, "In Search of the Cradle of Civilization," >also a 1995 Voice of India publication, says, I believe (I haven't yet >read this book myself, however) that the Aryans did invade, only they >came not from the Caucasus but from Persia. How rigorous is the >scholarship and does it stand behind the hypotheses? > >Do you think, as the reviewers of these writers seem to, that the story >was a myth concocted by the English to create a tie between the Brahmins >and themselves? The "white Brahmin" idea? > >Or do you feel these people who say the Aryan invasion was a myth are >indulging in wishful thinking? > >Where does the historical evidence point? Has there been carbon dating >of archeological remains at Taxila, Harappa, Moenjodaro, for instance? >What does it reveal? > >Perhaps you have already discussed these new theories on Indology. If >so, please point me to the website where I may find the archives with >discussion on this topic. Thanks in advance for your assistance. > >Shauna Singh Baldwin The Aryan migration theory, and other theories have recently been discussed on this list, though the discussion recently seems to have slowed down. Please visit the Indology List archives at http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html. I recall that the recent discussion began in July or August (although it may have begun earlier), and continued into early November. Earlier stages of discussions of Aryan migration into India, versus indigenous Aryans in India, may probably be found further back in the archives. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Nov 28 07:09:45 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 98 02:09:45 -0500 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227042946.23782.9914063414122272764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would very much like to know the following details regarding the dakSiNAmurti story in which ziva teaches four disciples/sages under the banyan tree. 1.The Sanskrit text that mentions this story for the first time and the date of the text 2. The subject that ziva taught these four disciples/sages 3. The names of these four disciples/sages 4. The earliest iconographic representation of this story Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 28 01:18:44 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 98 06:48:44 +0530 Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227042942.23782.7841816424123549329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:27 PM 11/27/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > >> Nov 26, 1998 >> >> Dear Members, >> I have been studying and teaching works of the great Shankaracharya for >> more than four decades. During all these years I have felt that two kinds >> of aids would be extremely helpful to those who study Shankaracharya >> seriously: >> (1) A Dictionary of all important words in his philosophical works >> explaining them on the basis of their use in his works with full references >> to the texts; (cp. A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar by K. V. Abhyankar et al) >> (2) An anthology of select passages from his works, accompanied by their >> English translation, as a direct introduction to his philosophy. >> I do not know if any scholar of Shankara has thought or worked in this >> direction. >> Can any member enlighten me on this point? >> Regards. >> KSA >> >As for point 2) You can refer to: Anthony J. Alston, *A /SaMkara Source >Book*, 6 volls., Shanti Sadan, London 1986-1993 (I am not sure about the >dates of publication). The passages are all translated into English, and >no original sankrit is quoted. The reference edition is Gita Press >unless otherwise specified. The volumes are thematical, one being derived >to the polemic with rival schools, another to the concept of the soul, and >so on. As far as I know Alston is a pupil of Hari Prasad Shastri. >Best regards, > > Alberto Pelissero > Nov 28, 98 Dear Member, Thanks a lot for the information. Regards. KSA From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 28 01:21:46 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 98 06:51:46 +0530 Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <002301be1a12$73069fa0$fe76ffd0@MSN/george9252> Message-ID: <161227042944.23782.15146454319939838739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:30 AM 11/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >Response to K.S. Arjunwadkhar re: aids to the study of Shankaracharya: > >I have included substantial and "reader-friendly" selections (rendered in >English only) from the Brahmasutra commentaries of both Shamkara and >Ramanuja in my SIX CLASSICS OF EASTERN PHILOSOPHY (Harcourt Brace, 1998, >ISBN 0-15-567749-7). This anthology is intended as an introduction to >eastern philosophical classics for students at the undergraduate level and >for general readers. It is not aimed at the scholarly community, but you >might find it of some interest. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: K. S. Arjunwadkar >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 8:37 PM >Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya > > >>Nov 26, 1998 >> >>Dear Members, >>I have been studying and teaching works of the great Shankaracharya for >>more than four decades. During all these years I have felt that two kinds >>of aids would be extremely helpful to those who study Shankaracharya >>seriously: >>(1) A Dictionary of all important words in his philosophical works >>explaining them on the basis of their use in his works with full references >>to the texts; (cp. A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar by K. V. Abhyankar et >al) >>(2) An anthology of select passages from his works, accompanied by their >>English translation, as a direct introduction to his philosophy. >>I do not know if any scholar of Shankara has thought or worked in this >>direction. >>Can any member enlighten me on this point? >>Regards. >>KSA >> > Nov 28, 98 Dear Member, Thanks a lot for the information. Regards. KSA From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 28 17:39:43 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 98 09:39:43 -0800 Subject: Buddhist prayer or poem by Tagore ? Message-ID: <161227042949.23782.4242400294805314706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Richard Gendron writes: > > Laura Fiori wrote in Buddha-L : > > BODHISATTVA'S PRAYER > Let me not pray to be sheltered from dangers > but to be fearless in facing them. [] to which >Thanks, laura > >jonathan lawson responded : >Laura, I think the poem you mention is "Fruit Gathering" by >Rabindranath Tagore. I really cannot tell you the source but I believe that Tagore was NOT the author of the mentioned poem ;though there is a poem by him that runs along similar lines i.e. It starts as "Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high.....". Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 29 15:45:19 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 07:45:19 -0800 Subject: Skanda-Murukan Conference, Chennai Message-ID: <161227042957.23782.2670440318170553661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nov. 29, 1998 Dear Friends, The Institute of Asian studies, Chennai (Madras) is hosting the first International Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murukan which will be held during December 28-30, 1998. As you may know, the Institute of Asian Studies have brought many valuable publications relating to South Indian studies. It publishes a bi-annual journal, the Jl. of the Inst. of Asian Studies in which many veterans of Indological pursuits have published during the last 12+ years. If you happen to be in {South} India during Christmas holidays, Chennai (Madras) is an worthy place to visit. During December, Madras has Carnatic music concerts, book fairs and good weather. The IAS website is at http://xlweb.com/heritage/asian/ Skanda-Murukan conference http://xlweb.com/heritage/murukan/ On Murukan bhakti: http://xlweb.com/heritage/skanda/ If you are planning to attend, please write to Dr. G. John Samuel, Chairman at ias at xlweb.com or to Dr. Patrick Harrigan, Secretary at harrigan at xlweb.com The IAS with its highly qualified and helpful staff, up-to-date computer facility, a great library is located in a million+ dollar facility on the sea shore en route to the seventh century Pallava site, Mamallapuram: Institute of Asian Studies Chemmancheri Sholinganallur Chennai 600 119 India Tel: 44- 4961662 Fax: 44- 4960959 Some topics of papers: 1) Iravatham Mahadevan, Murukan in the Indus inscriptions 2) Asko Parpola, Murukan in the Indus script 3) Alexander Dubianski, Skanda-Murukan: Time and Nature associations 4) Patrick Harrigan "My God, you are a trouble maker!" or The element of Play in Kaumara Mysticism 5) Hilde Link Where Valli meets Murukan: Landscape symbolism in Kataragama, Sri Lanka. 6) S. Pathmanathan, The Hindu-Buddhist interaction in Sri Lanka: a guardian God of Lanka 7) Dieter B. Kapp, An incarnation of Murukan and Valli according to a tradition of the Alu Kurumabas. 8) S. S. Janaki, Subrahmanya in Sanskrit agamic literature. 9) M. Shanmugam Pillai, veRiyaaTTu: Tribal worship in Cankam literature. 10) Indira Y. Junghare, Minnesota Skanda-kumara in Maharashtra and many more. Everyone is invited. Hope to see you at IAS, Chennai (Madras) A help request: Please post this for me in RISA-L With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Sun Nov 29 09:02:21 1998 From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 09:02:21 +0000 Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227042954.23782.8914178888635671711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A dictionary of the kind Prof. Arjunwadkar suggested is not available, as far as I know. To compile such a dictionary one would first need complete word indices to the works of ;Sa:nkaraacaarya. My information in that area extends only to the following: Mahadevan, T.M.P. Index to the Brahma-Sutra-Bhasya of Sankara. 2 parts. Madras: University of Madras. (This includes important words but leaves out verbs, particles etc. making stylistic and authorship studies difficult.) D'sa, F. 1985. Word-Index to Sankara's Gita-bhasya. Pune: Institute for the Study of Religion. Series: Linguistic Aids for the Study of Indian Religious Texts. As I recall, some work similar to these in that a few individual bhaa.syas were indexed has also been carried out at the Shri Dwarkadhish Sanskrit Academy andIndological Research Institute, located behind the Arts and Commerce college near the S.T. Bus Station, Dwarka 361 335, Jamnagar Dt., Gujarat. As I do not have my notes with me, I cannot be sure in this regard. The last I inquired the A.J. Alston volumes (?a?kara Source-book. London: Shanti Sadan, 29 Chepstrow Villas. Six vols: ?a?kara on the Absolute, ?a?kara on the Creation, ?a?kara on the Soul, ?a?kara on Rival views, ?a?kara on Discipleship, and ?a?kara on Enlightenment. The first vol also contains a historical introduction), were out of print. I hope they have been reprinted since. Of much more limited use for the particular inquiry would be: van Buitenen, J.A.B.; Deutsch, Elliot.19xx. A source book of Advaita Ved?nta. ashok aklujkar K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > > Nov 26, 1998 > > Dear Members, > I have been studying and teaching works of the great Shankaracharya for > more than four decades. During all these years I have felt that two kinds > of aids would be extremely helpful to those who study Shankaracharya > seriously: > (1) A Dictionary of all important words in his philosophical works > explaining them on the basis of their use in his works with full references > to the texts; (cp. A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar by K. V. Abhyankar et al) > (2) An anthology of select passages from his works, accompanied by their > English translation, as a direct introduction to his philosophy. > I do not know if any scholar of Shankara has thought or worked in this > direction. > Can any member enlighten me on this point? > Regards. > KSA From rambabu at YARLAGADDA.COM Sun Nov 29 19:59:29 1998 From: rambabu at YARLAGADDA.COM (Rambabu Yarlagadda) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 11:59:29 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042962.23782.18305523898069446646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any real evidence for Aryan invasion other than the theory one German scholar who never visited India? I know there are lots of postulations about the similarity of Sanskrit to European languages etc. What I mean is there any real evidence like archeological evidence? Rambabu Yarlagadda -----Original Message----- From: Partha Banerjee To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? >Shauna Singh Baldwin writes: > >... >>Is there a consensus among historians about the Aryan invasion of India >>that was taught when I was in high school in India in the seventies? >>Lately I've been hearing more discussion about >>the "Myth of the Aryan Invasion" (there is a book by that name, >>published by Voice >>of India in 1995), ... > >________________________ > >Voice of India is a publishing house run largely by the Sangh Parivar (RSS, >VHP, BJP, etc.) that preaches Hindutva (i.e., Hindu supremacist doctrines). >The Sangh Parivar has always been against the theory of Aryan invasion, not >on the basis of historical evidences, but on the basis of ideological >beliefs. > >These beliefs have often made other presumptions such as the "hypothesis" >that Taj Mahal was built by a Hindu king and not by Mughal emperor >Shah-Jehan. Even a conservative historian such as Dr. Ramesh Chandra >Mazumdar was outraged by such presumptions. > From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sun Nov 29 18:30:09 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 13:30:09 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? In-Reply-To: <365F10D3.6C98B5FD@execpc.com> Message-ID: <161227042960.23782.6765608651182897835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shauna Singh Baldwin writes: ... >Is there a consensus among historians about the Aryan invasion of India >that was taught when I was in high school in India in the seventies? >Lately I've been hearing more discussion about >the "Myth of the Aryan Invasion" (there is a book by that name, >published by Voice >of India in 1995), ... ________________________ Voice of India is a publishing house run largely by the Sangh Parivar (RSS, VHP, BJP, etc.) that preaches Hindutva (i.e., Hindu supremacist doctrines). The Sangh Parivar has always been against the theory of Aryan invasion, not on the basis of historical evidences, but on the basis of ideological beliefs. These beliefs have often made other presumptions such as the "hypothesis" that Taj Mahal was built by a Hindu king and not by Mughal emperor Shah-Jehan. Even a conservative historian such as Dr. Ramesh Chandra Mazumdar was outraged by such presumptions. From sajeel at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 29 08:21:52 1998 From: sajeel at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Ravi Khanna) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 13:51:52 +0530 Subject: learning Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227042951.23782.5395394196875135075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ashish, you should go about your study in stages :- 1. firstly get a couple of good dictionaries - like Sanskrit -Hindi kosh by vAman shivrAm Apte : motilal banarsidas. Another excellent dictionary is English to Sanskrit by Monier Williams : Southern publications, Madras. 2. Get a grammar text like - bR^had anuvAd chandrikA by chakradhar N. Shastri : motilal banarsidas. A Sanskrit to English grammar text is A higher Sanskrit Grammar by M.R.Kale : motilal banarsidas. 3. Decide which scriptures you really want to study. For sanskrit to hindi translations pick up books on the upanishads and sUtrabhaashya from Gita press, gorakhpur. get going its great knowledge. Ravi Khanna -----Original Message----- From: Ashish Chandra To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 9:26 PM Subject: learning Sanskrit >I am trying to find a book which will enable me to learn Sanskrit well >enough that I can read our scriptures without much need for translation. In >other words, I would want to interpret them myself. I have studied 5 years >of Sanskrit from grade 6 to 10th but have now forgotten most of it. Can >anyone judge from my level which book will be best suited to learn Sanskrit >or do I have to take instructions by enrolling in a school ? I would >appreciate any help. > >Ashish Chandra > From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Sun Nov 29 22:50:49 1998 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 14:50:49 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042965.23782.15586808771767703819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found your reply to the query below understandable, but less than helpful. There were 1050 items in the archives that turned up using the search term "Aryan," and most of those of course were totally unrelated to the topic. Of those that were, none (as far as my less-than-total review revealed) improved upon the following excerpt from a message Jayant Bapak rather early on in the debate: >Having perused many of the available works, I have come to the >conclusion that:1)There is a reasonably serious challenge to the >Aryan invasion theory 2)Unfortunately the proponents of the challenge >themselves have no firm conclusive evidence to justify their case and >3) This whole area is in need of some totally unbiased and thorough research. I take it that no one has as yet performed "some totally unbiased and thorough research." In lieu thereof, a summary of salient points made in the email debate on this list, or a websites like the one I describe below, with links to relevant source material, would be useful. For those who have an interest in the Sarasvati River, I recommend the website http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/ organized by Dr. S. Kalayanaraman, particularly the article by Puri, VKM, and BC Verma, Glaciological and Geological Source of Vedic Sarasvati in the Himalayas, included there, as well as Dr. Kalayanaraman's own monograph, available on http://www.probys.com/sarasvati/ . Puri and Verma made a geological and glaciological survey of the most likely headwaters area for the Sarasvati in the Himalayas, and concluded that the area did feed the Sarasvati River. Earthquakes diverted half the water southward towards the Ganges, and the Sutlej changed course and eventually joined the Indus, essentially changing the Sarasvati to a seasonal river. The melting of the major glaciers that once fed the river and a reduction in monsoon run-off also reduced its flow. Puri and Verma appear to depend on archeological studies of cities built along the old Saravasti riverbid for dating of when this might have taken place. Certainly, the fact that the Rig Veda speaks both of the Sarasvati as a full-flowing river that ran to the sea, and later as a river that dries up in the desert, to say nothing of the cities and towns along its former banks, indicates strongly that an ancient but historical date for the change is appropriate. They suggest about 2450 B.C. for the first major loss of water and perhaps 1700 B.C. for the drying up of the river into its present form. Other sources on these websites trace the river beyond its headwaters region through Rajasthan, Sind and Kutch to the sea. Others indicate that hundreds of new archeological sites have been found in the past two or three decades in this area, but almost all remain unstudied. The case for an ancient but historical Sarasvati is made objectively and scientifically and seems to me, a layman, to be unrefuted. (For the most part: Kalayanaraman's theory, thrown in for good measure, that soma was a gold-silver alloy called electrum, and that the references in the Veda to it bespeak the process of producing it, is less adequately explained and documented.) I think it is time to hear more from archeologists, and less from linguists. Do any belong to this list? David -----Original Message----- From: Elliot Stern To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, November 27, 1998 3:53 PM Subject: Re: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? >>Dear Historians on Indology: >>Is there a consensus among historians about the Aryan invasion of India >>that was taught when I was in high school in India in the seventies? >>Lately I've been hearing more discussion about >>the "Myth of the Aryan Invasion" (there is a book by that name, >>published by Voice >>of India in 1995), saying that Max Mueller in particular dated the Aryan >>invasion at >>3500 BC because of the prevailing Christian myth that the world was >>created in >>4004 BC at 4 pm (!), that the Aryan *language and colorism/ideas of >>varna* may have >>mixed with Indian language and culture via the passes, but that the >>Aryan *people* >>were not a tribe from the Caucasus, but were *indigenous* to India. >>Bhagwan Gidwani's 1997 novel, "Return of the Aryans," is premised on >>this theory. Another book, "In Search of the Cradle of Civilization," >>also a 1995 Voice of India publication, says, I believe (I haven't yet >>read this book myself, however) that the Aryans did invade, only they >>came not from the Caucasus but from Persia. How rigorous is the >>scholarship and does it stand behind the hypotheses? >> >>Do you think, as the reviewers of these writers seem to, that the story >>was a myth concocted by the English to create a tie between the Brahmins >>and themselves? The "white Brahmin" idea? >> >>Or do you feel these people who say the Aryan invasion was a myth are >>indulging in wishful thinking? >> >>Where does the historical evidence point? Has there been carbon dating >>of archeological remains at Taxila, Harappa, Moenjodaro, for instance? >>What does it reveal? >> >>Perhaps you have already discussed these new theories on Indology. If >>so, please point me to the website where I may find the archives with >>discussion on this topic. Thanks in advance for your assistance. >> >>Shauna Singh Baldwin > >The Aryan migration theory, and other theories have recently been discussed >on this list, though the discussion recently seems to have slowed down. >Please visit the Indology List archives at >http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html. I recall that the recent >discussion began in July or August (although it may have begun earlier), >and continued into early November. Earlier stages of discussions of Aryan >migration into India, versus indigenous Aryans in India, may probably be >found further back in the archives. > > > > >Elliot M. Stern >552 South 48th Street >Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >USA > >telephone: 215 747 6204 > From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sun Nov 29 15:47:25 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 18:47:25 +0300 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042989.23782.4553613054562269853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H.M.Hubey wrote (Nov.30): >1. The lower numerals (like 3,4,5) were apparently being developed in >the >Middle East/Sumeria around 3,000 BC. (see Denise Schmand-Bessarat, or >Diakanoff). But then circa 4500 BC a bunch of cattle-herders already >have >the integers (in decimal no less) up to a hundred! How is that possible? Do you mean that before the Sumerians (Turkic-speaking, of course), "developed numerals", all other poor devils could not count up to 3, 4, 5? >2. These people ran over, invaded and sacked half the world on horses >and >carts but cart-wheels can't be made without wood or metals, and there is >no wood or metals in the areas from which the IEans issued because they >are from the steppes. Why isn't it likely that they got their carts made >in civilized areas and which had wood, like North of India or north of >the Caucasus? Vedic chariots were made without any metal, there was no single nail in them. There is a lot of wood in the Ukraine or South Ural, for example, and metallurgy is well known there starting from the IV-III mill. B.C. Most intriguing problem is in what particular way these illiterate IE bums made their orders for imports of car(t)s from the "civilized areas" in the Near East? >3....Nomads could not even bake bread the normal way. After the iron age, >then made flat breads (pita), and these >flat breads can be found in historical times to be made by nomads, like >Turkic nomads (pide), Afghan bread, Berber bread etc. Before that the >easiest >way to cook grains was to boil them in water, hence the foods like >Polish >'pirogi' are thought to be from Turkic (burek) and these are the modern >nomads. Polish "pierogi" - Plural, "pierog" - Sing., Russian "pirog", Ukranian "pirig" go back to common Slavic word *pyro- meaning "ritual wheat bread" (there is also some connection with *pir "ritual feast"). Cf. Greek "pyros" "wheat", Lith. "purai", eventually common IE *pU-ro- (Pokorny I, 850). There is no possibility of its connection with "burek" or any other Turkic word. The link with Chuvash "pyrek", Chagat. "burek", suggested by Ramstedt and Rasanen was rejected nany decades ago by all linguists. In the same way anything else in this posting has no foundation in facts and is not even "intuitive", but simply a product of absolutely unbridled imagination. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- volcanic eruption like Thera/Santorini? The biggest problem is that there seems to be no way to date metals. Nobody knows where the bronze, iron items came from. Nobody even seems to want to know. At least I am not aware of anyone who has done any thorough analysis. There is more to metals then what "style" they look like. They probably have different amounts of impurities in them, and may even contain hints of different smelting and working techniques. Unfortunately some of these tests are destructive. Maybe archaeologists and museums will learn eventually to part with small bits of metal objects to further the goal of science than to learn to polish them and keep them sparkling for visitors. Even the amount of oxidation may be important in attempting to date their manufacture date but my guess is that the only thing archaeologists think about is getting them polished and cleaned as soon as possible and then look at the drawings on them so they can label them Greek, Latin, Scythian etc. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Mon Nov 30 01:36:55 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 20:36:55 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042967.23782.5529419911835651504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Salmon wrote: > For those who have an interest in the Sarasvati River, I recommend the > website http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/ organized by Dr. S. Kalayanaraman, > particularly the article by Puri, VKM, and BC Verma, Glaciological and > Geological Source of Vedic Sarasvati in the Himalayas, included there, as > well as Dr. Kalayanaraman's own monograph, available on > http://www.probys.com/sarasvati/ . Puri and Verma made a geological and > glaciological survey of the most likely headwaters area for the Sarasvati in > the Himalayas, and concluded that the area did feed the Sarasvati River. > Earthquakes diverted half the water southward towards the Ganges, and the > Sutlej changed course and eventually joined the Indus, essentially changing Can someone please tell me the etymology of "Sutlej"? > the Sarasvati to a seasonal river. The melting of the major glaciers that > once fed the river and a reduction in monsoon run-off also reduced its flow. This would make these stories about 10,000 years old or even older. Is that when the IE languages start to split? The problem of the IE Urheimat is something that gets discussed all the time. Every place from the Balkans to Central Asia has been suggested. I find it difficult to understand a few things; 1. The lower numerals (like 3,4,5) were apparently being developed in the Middle East/Sumeria around 3,000 BC. (see Denise Schmand-Bessarat, or Diakanoff). But then circa 4500 BC a bunch of cattle-herders already have the integers (in decimal no less) up to a hundred! How is that possible? 2. These people ran over, invaded and sacked half the world on horses and carts but cart-wheels can't be made without wood or metals, and there is no wood or metals in the areas from which the IEans issued because they are from the steppes. Why isn't it likely that they got their carts made in civilized areas and which had wood, like North of India or north of the Caucasus? 3. There is evidence for people riding reindeer (see Crossley on the Manchirians?) during the "upper Paleolithic"(?). I recall thinking at the time that this could be as far back as 25,000 ya or 10,000 ya. Now this area still had wild horses, Prezhawalski horses, thought to be the first horses domesticated and used for transport, relatively recently. Now did these people who were riding reindeer not think of domesticating horses for thousands of years? Isn't it easier to catch horses riding other animals than chasing them on foot in the treeless steppe? 4. Where are the metal working areas and mines? There is Cyprus, of course (for coppper), and tin mines in Anatolia whcih is what is needed for bronze. Carthaginians/Phonecians were apparently going as far as the British Isles in search of tin at one time. This is likely after the tin mines in Anatolia ran out. So where are the tin and copper mines in the steppes which these cattle herders accidentally discovered and exploited to make cart wheels? Smelting metal requires high temperaturs. Nomads could not even bake bread the normal way. After the iron age, then made flat breads (pita), and these flat breads can be found in historical times to be made by nomads, like Turkic nomads (pide), Afghan bread, Berber bread etc. Before that the easiest way to cook grains was to boil them in water, hence the foods like Polish 'pirogi' are thought to be from Turkic (burek) and these are the modern nomads. So if they can't even make a hot enough fire and bake bread how then did they get the metals needed to hold the wheels together so they could go raiding the world? 5. Now finally the two articles from Science and Science News I already wrote about. The glaciers starting melting then. One result was that the ME, EAst Africa and Indian subcontinent got separated by natural barriers whereas before that it was not so. Secondly, the Black Lake got flooded by the rising sea levels and became a Sea and also flooded the seacoast probably burying whatever civilizations lived there. So now it seems like all the evidence from every area is lined up against linguistic evidence, mostly from IEanists, using an intuitive method which most refuse to give up or allow others to improve, and yet based on it, people like Gimbutas claim to be able to tell us that their homeland was in the Ukraine (a treeless steppe) or further north (closer to Gimbutas' home :-)). IT is not surprising that others do not want to give up the honor of having hosted the 'Aryans'. How about working to create something more realistic and more consistent? First, the evidence from other branches of science have to be accounted for. Secondly, the toy model of linguistic change and language evolution has to be given up for something more realistic. > > Puri and Verma appear to depend on archeological studies of cities built > along the old Saravasti riverbid for dating of when this might have taken > place. Certainly, the fact that the Rig Veda speaks both of the Sarasvati > as a full-flowing river that ran to the sea, and later as a river that dries > up in the desert, to say nothing of the cities and towns along its former > banks, indicates strongly that an ancient but historical date for the change > is appropriate. They suggest about 2450 B.C. for the first major loss of > water and perhaps 1700 B.C. for the drying up of the river into its present > form. 1. How about the possible sunken city off the Japanese coast? Why couldn't it have been sunk as a result of the rising sea waters? If so then human civilization goes back a lot further than the 5-6,000 years people seem to want. 2. Why all of a sudden this great interest all over the world in wanting to build tall, pyramidal shaped, stone structures? Did they think that by being able to go higher, and looking further they could see disaster approaching? WAs it some volcanic eruption like Thera/Santorini? > Other sources on these websites trace the river beyond its headwaters region > through Rajasthan, Sind and Kutch to the sea. Others indicate that hundreds > of new archeological sites have been found in the past two or three decades > in this area, but almost all remain unstudied. > > The case for an ancient but historical Sarasvati is made objectively and > scientifically and seems to me, a layman, to be unrefuted. (For the most > part: Kalayanaraman's theory, thrown in for good measure, that soma was a > gold-silver alloy called electrum, and that the references in the Veda to it > bespeak the process of producing it, is less adequately explained and > documented.) > > I think it is time to hear more from archeologists, and less from linguists. > Do any belong to this list? The biggest problem is that there seems to be no way to date metals. Nobody knows where the bronze, iron items came from. Nobody even seems to want to know. At least I am not aware of anyone who has done any thorough analysis. There is more to metals then what "style" they look like. They probably have different amounts of impurities in them, and may even contain hints of different smelting and working techniques. Unfortunately some of these tests are destructive. Maybe archaeologists and museums will learn eventually to part with small bits of metal objects to further the goal of science than to learn to polish them and keep them sparkling for visitors. Even the amount of oxidation may be important in attempting to date their manufacture date but my guess is that the only thing archaeologists think about is getting them polished and cleaned as soon as possible and then look at the drawings on them so they can label them Greek, Latin, Scythian etc. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Nov 30 11:40:47 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 06:40:47 -0500 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? In-Reply-To: <01BE1C3F.BEF69120@ti34a22-0078.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227042984.23782.17809799918389701169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In connection with this question, it would be useful to mention that the proceedings of the 1996 Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar on the theme "Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation, and Ideology" are close to being published. The camera-ready copy is all set to go to the printer, and we expect the book to be out in the next few months. It should provide a state-of-the-art discussion on a number of related topics. Madhav Deshpande From mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK Mon Nov 30 08:08:35 1998 From: mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK (Margo von Romberg) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 08:08:35 +0000 Subject: maitri upanishad Message-ID: <161227042974.23782.5811375706831650025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the Maitri Upanishad (English translation)? I have searched the WWW but can't find it. None of the internet bookshops I have tried seem to have it. Best wishes, Margo von Romberg From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Nov 30 13:24:38 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 08:24:38 -0500 Subject: Buddhist prayer or poem by Tagore ? In-Reply-To: <199811300345.OAA22341@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227042987.23782.8231665386348600538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Tagore's collection of poems Katha o Kahini (Tales and Fables), there is an excellent poem on Buddha and his disciple Anathpindad and their sweeping effects on the mass. Then, in the same book, there is another well-known poem named Pujarini (the worshipper) that tells the story of Buddhist king Bimbisaar, his Hindu son Ajatshatru, and the self-sacrifice of the woman Buddhist worshipper Srimati who defied Ajatshatru's anti-Buddhist decrees. I don't know if Katha o Kahini is translated in English or any other language, but it would be a worthwhile project. -Partha Banerjee From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Nov 30 03:05:40 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 08:35:40 +0530 Subject: Aids to the study of Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <36610D9C.AB2E9996@public.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227043044.23782.4028150240572077603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:02 AM 11/29/98 +0000, you wrote: >A dictionary of the kind Prof. Arjunwadkar suggested is not available, as far >as I know. To compile such a dictionary one would first need complete word >indices to the works of ;Sa:nkaraacaarya. My information in that area extends >only to the following: > >Mahadevan, T.M.P. Index to the Brahma-Sutra-Bhasya of Sankara. 2 parts. >Madras: University of Madras. (This includes important words but leaves out >verbs, particles etc. making stylistic and authorship studies difficult.) > >D'sa, F. 1985. Word-Index to Sankara's Gita-bhasya. Pune: Institute for the >Study of Religion. Series: Linguistic Aids for the Study of Indian Religious >Texts. > >As I recall, some work similar to these in that a few individual bhaa.syas >were indexed has also been carried out at the Shri Dwarkadhish Sanskrit >Academy andIndological Research Institute, located behind the Arts and >Commerce college >near the S.T. Bus Station, Dwarka 361 335, Jamnagar Dt., Gujarat. As I do not >have my notes with me, I cannot be sure in this regard. > >The last I inquired the A.J. Alston volumes (?a?kara Source-book. London: >Shanti Sadan, 29 Chepstrow Villas. Six vols: ?a?kara on the Absolute, >?a?kara on the Creation, ?a?kara on the Soul, ?a?kara on Rival views, ?a?kara on >Discipleship, and ?a?kara on Enlightenment. The first vol also contains a >historical introduction), were out of print. I hope they have been reprinted since. > >Of much more limited use for the particular inquiry would be: van Buitenen, >J.A.B.; Deutsch, Elliot.19xx. A source book of Advaita Ved?nta. > >ashok aklujkar > >K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: >> >> Nov 26, 1998 >> >> Dear Members, >> I have been studying and teaching works of the great Shankaracharya for >> more than four decades. During all these years I have felt that two kinds >> of aids would be extremely helpful to those who study Shankaracharya >> seriously: >> (1) A Dictionary of all important words in his philosophical works >> explaining them on the basis of their use in his works with full references >> to the texts; (cp. A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar by K. V. Abhyankar et al) >> (2) An anthology of select passages from his works, accompanied by their >> English translation, as a direct introduction to his philosophy. >> I do not know if any scholar of Shankara has thought or worked in this >> direction. >> Can any member enlighten me on this point? >> Regards. >> KSA > To Dr. Ashok Aklujkar Dear Ashok, Thank you for the information. My idea is not so much of stylistic and other studies as of concepts. An instance in this regard is that of the Yoga dictionary published by Kaivalya Dham, Lonavla, besides the one of Sanskrit grammar already mentioned in my first posting. Best wishes. KSA From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 30 16:38:01 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 08:38:01 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042998.23782.15098360815269154005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Salmon writes: [...] * I think it is time to hear more from archaeologists, * and less from linguists. [...] Despite sustained archaeological searches, NO horse remains or equipment have been found in IVC dating prior to 1700 B.C. In about 4000 Indus seals, found in a wide area for about a century by archaeologists, horse is NOT depicted. On the other hand, Aryans and horses go hand in hand in the Rigveda. Linguistics points to the entry of Sanskrit into India and not the other way around. The Indigenous Aryan school is not able to dislodge this so far. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 30 08:59:20 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 08:59:20 +0000 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042971.23782.9887401738106922725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Elliot Stern wrote: I found your reply to the query below understandable, but less than helpful. There were 1050 items in the archives that turned up using the search term "Aryan," and most of those of course were totally unrelated to the topic. Of those that were, none (as far as my less-than-total review revealed) improved upon the following excerpt from a message Jayant Bapak rather early on in the debate: May I suggest that you in addition to "Aryan" also search for "Witzel". Witzel has on some occasions summed up the arguments in favour of the "invasion" (or rather "migration") theory. His emails will therefore give you a reasonably good overview of the "invasionist" argument. As for archaeology: it has been said several times on this list that archaeology is in no way so conclusive as som "indigenists" seem to think. There is no necessary link between ethnicity, race, material culture and language. (An argument for this was already developed by Boas in 1948, I believe in another context). The irony of the thing is that this insight now seems to have reached the Western side of the Indo-European question. After a 150 years or so of archaeological research, a number of tightly argued theories (e.g. Marija Gimbutas) and endless discussions, the German archaeologist Alexander Haeusler has reached the conclusion that there is no way European archaeology can be linked to an Indo-European invasion of Europe. Whoever they were, and whenever they came (assuming that they weren't here to begin with), archaeology doesn't give us any certain information. Looking for "proof" in archaeology is therefore a waste of time. What you do, is this: you collect as many data (linguistic and otherwise) as you can, configure them in such a way that they give a pattern that makes sense and interpret that pattern. It is the logic of the puzzle, and you may perform the following experiment: Imagine that you have a puzzle consisting of a 1000 pieces. Throw 800 of these pieces (chosen at random) away and then try to reconstruct the picture (or simply: guess what the picture represented). The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Mon Nov 30 15:40:42 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 10:40:42 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042993.23782.17715299190780292265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kjkarttu at Elo.Helsinki.FI wrote: > > On 29 Nov 98 at 20:36, H.M.Hubey wrote: > > > ... > > Can someone please tell me the etymology of "Sutlej"? > > ... > > Epic Zatadru, Vedic ZutudrI, Greek Zaradros (in Ptolemy), Latin > Sydrus (Pliny). Note that in Indic z stays for palatal sibilant, in > Greek for the letter zeta. See my India and the Hellenistic World. > Helsinki 1997. p. 116. Sorry, but this does not tell me anything. All I see are words that resemble one another. Is there a meaning attached to these words? -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Mon Nov 30 16:03:40 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 11:03:40 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042996.23782.15651619189315940567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > H.M.Hubey wrote (Nov.30): > > >1. The lower numerals (like 3,4,5) were apparently being developed in > >the > >Middle East/Sumeria around 3,000 BC. (see Denise Schmand-Bessarat, or > >Diakanoff). But then circa 4500 BC a bunch of cattle-herders already > >have > >the integers (in decimal no less) up to a hundred! How is that possible? > > Do you mean that before the Sumerians (Turkic-speaking, of course), > "developed numerals", all other poor devils could not count up to 3, 4, 5? I thought it went like this: God invented the IE peoples and then IE peoples invented speech and civilization :-) I guess you have to ask Diakoff, and Denise Schmand-Bessarat. Like in all science, they seem to have noticed patterns in the world's languages in which the bigger numbers are derived from the smaller numbers like one-passed-one, one-passed-two, one-passed-three. If these distinguished scientists (!) have come to the conclusion that the lower numerals as seen in the written record of the Middle East were being "invented" from even smaller ones, then it is strange that a bunch of cattle-herders (that is what the IE theory says) already could count up to 100 (in the decimal system too, amazing) millennia before that. One of these is likely wrong. > >2. These people ran over, invaded and sacked half the world on horses > >and > >carts but cart-wheels can't be made without wood or metals, and there is > >no wood or metals in the areas from which the IEans issued because they > >are from the steppes. Why isn't it likely that they got their carts made > >in civilized areas and which had wood, like North of India or north of > >the Caucasus? > > Vedic chariots were made without any metal, there was no single nail > in them. It's not necessary to use nails. But the outside rim (that goes on the spokes) is held together by metal. Otherwise it would fall apart. Besides, you are not suggesting that these great wheel-makers skipped all the middle-levels in the then high-technology of wheel-making and went right to spoked-wheels, are you? Or are you saying that the Vedic wheels were a culmination of many years of wheel-making experience and experiment starting a long time ago before the metals age possibly? > There is a lot of wood in the Ukraine or South Ural, for example, and > metallurgy is well known there starting from the IV-III mill. B.C. That is interesting. But South Urals are not the Ukrainian steppes. Secondly, perhaps you can tell us how the age of metal-making is known so well. It surprises me that if dating the age of metal making was so easy we should then have a good chronology of where the iron age started and the bronze age too while we are at it. PS. Is this copper, bronze, or iron? What kinds of evidence is there? Is it mines? What kind of mines? copper? tin? zinc? iron? How is the age dated? Unless I am mistaken, often numbers are just invented by linguists. Most of them who give the age of IE to be 6,000 do not know where it came from. It is not much more than fear by most to oppose the vocal few. > Most intriguing problem is in what particular way these illiterate > IE bums made their orders for imports of car(t)s from the "civilized areas" > in the Near East? The illiterate IE bums is part of IE theory, according to its staunch defenders. They do not have writing until Hittites which was borrowed from the Middle East. And the IE bums' "have horse, will travel" theory is also part of IE theory defended by most IEanists. Since the IE bums' miraculous invention of horse-riding and cart-making no other nomads seem to have been very literate so it is unlikely that the IE bums were literate either. What is amazing is why a bunch of cattle-herders would be digging the ground for anything at all unless they already knew something about metallurgy. So maybe humans knew a lot more about metals very long ago which is not factored into the theories, or else it is unlikely that cattle-herders discovered metals or worked them or knew how, unless some wandering tribesmen from an area which already knew metalworking wandered into the area and taught them. > > Polish "pierogi" - Plural, "pierog" - Sing., Russian "pirog", > Ukranian "pirig" go back to common Slavic word *pyro- meaning "ritual > wheat bread" (there is also some connection with *pir "ritual feast"). > Cf. Greek "pyros" "wheat", Lith. "purai", eventually common IE *pU-ro- > (Pokorny I, 850). There is no possibility of its connection with "burek" > or any other Turkic word. The link with Chuvash "pyrek", Chagat. "burek", > suggested by Ramstedt and Rasanen was rejected nany decades ago by all > linguists. Yes, I should have guessed. They could not have borrowed anything. I guess it is also not true that until the Mongols brought the cabbage to Europe, and before potatoes came from the new world, borscht was made with beets only. > In the same way anything else in this posting has no foundation > in facts and is not even "intuitive", but simply a product of absolutely > unbridled imagination. Tanenbaum has a nice saying; "if you don't like this year's standards, wait until next year; there will be plenty more." That is the great thing about the social scientists,; they are so sure of things that they have been taught to memorize while they were in school that they think "argument by repetetion" is one of the axioms of logic. If some of them knew how to think (and some do, unfortunately not you) they would know that most of these "theories" are based on two things: (1) unbridled imagination, (2) mass repetetion of childhood memorizations. If you repeat something enough times, and teach enough people to repeat it, it becomes "true" by virtue of repetition. This is why some people outside of Europe have realized that they can do the same thing; all they have to do is to teach their peoples to repeat the opposite things. Fortunately, there are still sane voices who are interested in truth and look for it. > Best regards, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > volcanic eruption like Thera/Santorini? > > The biggest problem is that there seems to be no way to date metals. > Nobody > knows where the bronze, iron items came from. Nobody even seems to want > to > know. At least I am not aware of anyone who has done any thorough > analysis. > There is more to metals then what "style" they look like. They probably > have > different amounts of impurities in them, and may even contain hints of > different smelting and working techniques. Unfortunately some of these > tests are destructive. Maybe archaeologists and museums will learn > eventually > to part with small bits of metal objects to further the goal of science > than > to learn to polish them and keep them sparkling for visitors. Even the > amount of > oxidation may be important in attempting to date their manufacture date > but > my guess is that the only thing archaeologists think about is getting > them > polished and cleaned as soon as possible and then look at the drawings > on them > so they can label them Greek, Latin, Scythian etc. > > -- > Best Regards, > Mark > -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged > material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, > or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you > received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the > material from any computer. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 30 19:13:29 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 11:13:29 -0800 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043008.23782.5706162168487619786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. I strongly disagree. Linguistic evidence is weak because there is no single linguistic theory. Just look at the history of linguistics. Just over the last century, or even the last few decades, there have been major changes in language classification. Even at the present, there are a number of major overhauls proposed to the classification system by the most noted linguists. Cultural evidence is interesting and helpful, but isolated cultural items pass easily from one people to the next without any need for migration much less invasion. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Mon Nov 30 10:18:18 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 11:18:18 +0100 Subject: Urdu speakers Message-ID: <161227042976.23782.11880024555199627427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I suddenly find I need to know the number of Urdu speakers in Bangladesh and Nepal, but do not have access to the censuses of these countries. For Nepal, I have the information provided by Wolf Donner in _Lebensraum Nepal_ (1994) that there were 2,650 Urdu speakers there in 1961. As according to the last, Indian census there were 8,542,463 Urdu speakers in Bihar and 1,455,649 in West Bengal, it seems reasonable that there may be some in Bangladesh and Nepal as well. Is there some kind soul out there who has access to this information who can send me the figures or tell me where to find it? I have access to reference works but not to censuses. With grateful thanks, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Nov 30 17:37:59 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 12:37:59 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043016.23782.12801339685688379544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pardon my intrusion into the world of this marvelous debate of linguistics vs. archaeology. But I have a doubt about archaeology that I would I would like to express with the following story. There was a town and in that town lived a man. The town was really old, perhaps dating back 1000 years before one man got there, and it had dilapidated buildings and all the pathways and pavements were paved with old 1000 year old bricks. This man, anguished at the state of this town decided to give it a facelift and started a project. He worked very hard for 30 years but was only able to replace about half of the town with new bricks and buildings. After that, he died. Then, a few years later, another man came to live in that town and he noticed the disparities in the town outlook. So he, anguished from the mixed appearance of his town, decided to replace the older structures with new ones. He worked for 40 years and by the time he died, one could fathom that he had finished 75%of the work that the man before him could not finish. And then came another man and so on. Finally, in a thousand years, the town's oldest building was the one the first man had built, in order to replace the past 1000 year old dilapidated structures. Then one day, an archaeologist came to this town and in his supreme knowledge, declared this town to be 1000 years old. He cited radio-carbon dating performed on the town bricks as his evidence. The whole world was happy at this man's achievement and this was written down in history books where this archaeologist was eulogized. In all his humility, this archaeologist sang paeans of the man who initially started the original project work, whose work in turn was inscribed on some of the inscriptions found in this town. How old was the town originally ? I am not trying to put archaeology down as even its proponents admit that it is not an exact science. I am merely trying to find out if archaeology can be considered as evidence to make blanket historical declarations which affect modern day civilizations. Please don't send me any emails like "you have amply demonstrated the size of your puny intellect by this observation". I am not knowledgeable in archaeology but I do question its use to write modern day history of old civilizations. Sincerely Ashish Chandra From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Nov 30 20:58:01 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 12:58:01 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043021.23782.7922697089967282447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. > > Paul K. Manansala wrote: > > I strongly disagree. Linguistic evidence is weak because there is no > single linguistic theory. Just look at the history of linguistics. > Just over the last century, or even the last few decades, there have > been major changes in language classification. Even at the present, > there are a number of major overhauls proposed to the classification > system by the most noted linguists. > > I don't think that language classification is very important here. As for archaeology, I have recently been in close contact with archaeological theory in connection with the Indo-European homeland, and >I fail to find a unified theory. Archaeology is quite different than linguistics though. Archaeology, at its base, is designed to trace movements of people. I agree it is not perfect, but how can you say that it is less relevant than linguistics? > > Cultural evidence is interesting and helpful, but isolated cultural > items pass easily from one people to the next without any need for > migration much less invasion. > > May I direct your attention to the following works: > > Bruce Lincoln: Myth, Cosmos and Society. Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction. Harvard University Press, 1986. > > Lincoln addresses the problem you mention (which, by the way, is a very real one). > > Bottom line: Whereas some cultural items undoubtedly migrate, there are some items that are hereditary and cannot be explained by migration. Well, as one who tracks the current issues of most of the top genetics journals, this statement comes as a surpise. I'm not sure how non-geneticists were able to ascertain that any aspect of culture is "hereditary" (if you mean here at a molecular level). Does this mean that an Asian cannot inherit certain Western cultural features from the media or from studying in the West? Could you give examples of such features? How do these apply to the Aryan invasion theory? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Mon Nov 30 11:27:31 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 13:27:31 +0200 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227042979.23782.5728948114228440200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 29 Nov 98 at 20:36, H.M.Hubey wrote: > ... > Can someone please tell me the etymology of "Sutlej"? > ... Epic Zatadru, Vedic ZutudrI, Greek Zaradros (in Ptolemy), Latin Sydrus (Pliny). Note that in Indic z stays for palatal sibilant, in Greek for the letter zeta. See my India and the Hellenistic World. Helsinki 1997. p. 116. Regards Klaus Karttunen From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Mon Nov 30 11:32:52 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 13:32:52 +0200 Subject: Information about degrees Message-ID: <161227042982.23782.16839991250552879239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If used with someone working on Indian archaeology I would say that "M.R.A.S" stands neither for "Member of the Royal Archealogical Society" nor for 'Member of the Royal Astronomical Society', but, what is much more likely, for 'Member of the Roya?l Asiatic Society'. Regards Klaus From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Mon Nov 30 18:58:34 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 13:58:34 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043010.23782.14533685292391603858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Note 1: Due to upcoming trips, I cannot really take part in this thread apart from this message. Note 2: I consider myself a sceptic in this matter, that is I find myself much less sure than those who believe that they know the past inside out. "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > 1. The lower numerals (like 3,4,5) were apparently being developed in > the Middle East/Sumeria around 3,000 BC. Are these numerals (notation for numbers) or number words (names for ordinals)? Mathematically speaking, the decimal system has no special status. There are actually a ``duodecimal society'' dedicated to the theory that the decimal system is a mistake and the base should be 12. They have a few very smart people among them. Of course, some of us are becoming quite good at base 16, the possible base of the future :-) On the other hand, philologists have been known to claim that Egyptians were inferior to Steppe people in making spoked wheels because the former used only 4 and occationaly 6 spokes, while the latter had 18 or more spokes. Somehow, such nonsense seems to escape ridicule. Lars Martin Fosse wrote > Imagine that you have a puzzle consisting of a 1000 pieces. Throw > 800 of these pieces (chosen at random) away and then try to reconstruct > the picture (or simply: guess what the picture represented). Isn't there supposed to be another step: try to fit the 800 pieces in, with a bit of shaving or padding (errors in observation!), or explain why they are from a different puzzle? > The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value > of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. Have you proposed this to archaeologists? What was the reaction? How about this: The best evidence of flying machines in Ancient India is textual, coming from the puranas. The value of archaeology and engineering, if any at all, is quite subsidiary. "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > Vedic chariots were made without any metal, there was no single nail > in them. Egyptian chariots had very little metal in them (to Mark: The tyres were made with skin, put on wet and then dried to shrink and tighten). But it would be confusing to say that they were made without metal: The tools were metal, presumably bronze. [ Spruytte's reconstruction used bronze tools and the chariot functioned perfectly and was quite durable.] There have been attempts to make wheels without metal tools. While the attempt was not a complete success (they made it with rotating axles, leading to premature failure), determined persons can probably make it work. The problem is that this invloved ``training'' branches to grow in circles. It is extremely unlikely that people without knowledge of wheels in the first place will do that. And solid or cross bar wheels clearly depended on metal. Lack of metal in chariots probably had to do with attempts to make them as light as possible. Remember, the early horses were really ponies, not Clysdales (sp?) [so much for horse drawn chariots frightening 3rd m. BCE Near Easterners]. Finally, there is clear evidence of trade between Kopet Dagh and Caspian-Aral steppes. I remember that there is some evidence of trade across the Caucases as well. I suspect that people in metal poor areas recyled their metal. So the lack of raw materials is not a big problem. I don't know about fuel. How did Andronovans manage? They lived in steppes, but are `famous' for metal working. [Of couse, the Andonovo sites are said to contain evidence for irrigation agriculture and grain milling, making them suspect fit for Indo-iranians who are supposed by some to be ignorant of agricultural work.] BTW, were the pins really of wood too, or of metal? --- -Nath From e8902730 at STUDENT.ANU.EDU.AU Mon Nov 30 03:45:43 1998 From: e8902730 at STUDENT.ANU.EDU.AU (Rahni Ennor) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 14:45:43 +1100 Subject: Buddhist prayer or poem by Tagore ? Message-ID: <161227042969.23782.4465624399435382396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Laura Fiori wrote in Buddha-L : > > BODHISATTVA'S PRAYER > Let me not pray to be sheltered from dangers > but to be fearless in facing them. > > Let me not beg for the stilling of my pain > but for the heart to conquer it. > > Let me not look to allies in life?s battlefields > but to my own strength. > > Let me not crave in anxious fear to be saved > but hope for patience to win my freedom. > >Can someone tell me what its source is? I thought it might be the >Bodhicharyavatara, but couldn't locate it in the text. >Thanks, laura > >jonathan lawson responded : >Laura, I think the poem you mention is "Fruit Gathering" by >Rabindranath Tagore. > >Anybody on this list knows the exact source ? > >Thanks, Richard I don't have the exact source with me, but it is definitely Tagore. Rahni Ennor From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Nov 30 21:02:25 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 15:02:25 -0600 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043024.23782.15789713491334681352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >In connection with this question, it would be useful to mention that the >proceedings of the 1996 Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar on the >theme "Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation, and >Ideology" are close to being published. > Another book of importance would be the Philadelphia Conference volumes edited by Dr. Victor Mair. The Bronze Age and Early Iron age peoples of Eastern Central Asia Prof.Narains identification and prediction of the "first indo-europeans" which now seems to have archeological confirmation has really made some of the extremist Europeanists like Mallory and many linguists very angry that their dogma is being questioned. In the Spring/Summer98 issue of JIES there is some entertaining writing with accusations of necromancy :). It is good to see that more people are shaking off the sheep mentality and questioning the dogma that has been peddled till now. I hope that the honest views of scholars like Denis Sinor, Narain and Linguists like R.M.W.Dixon will help in bringing some sanity. I must say that Dixon's "Rise and Fall of Languages" is an excellent book - lots of common sense in it. Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 30 23:03:50 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 15:03:50 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043038.23782.10466786366462019423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Lars, Every time you post, I do get attachments. Go to indology archives. There your attachments are included as unreadable scribble. Also, there are no return keystrokes of your writeup. It is one long line. The original writeup by someone and your response to it are not clearly demarcated. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Mon Nov 30 23:52:49 1998 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 15:52:49 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043042.23782.1907668441233933418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I quite agree with what you say. I did not mean that linguistics had nothing to offer: they have, and it has not been successfully refuted by those who claim an Indian, i.e., non-Aryan, origin for the Vedas. But they don't prove much beyond the likelihood of some kind of invasion from outside, and it seems unreliably facile as "science" goes. My point is that we need some hard facts to go with all the theory and supposition from both sides (both of which enlist linguists). I'd like to know what is down in the dirt and what it tell us about (1) how far back the Indus-Sarasvati civilization goes back, (2) what was the nature of its religious practices, (3) what was the nature of its social structure, and (4) how this compares with the Rig Veda accounts. We will then have a better idea of who wrote it. -My- theory is an old one: that an outside group (Aryans?) subjugated an existing Indian civilization, drove most of them away toward the south and the Ganges and made the remainder into outcaste slaves and serfs, adopted the learning of the existing civilization and profited from it, and over time, especially with the dessication of the Sarasvati valley, merged into the existing society through a blending of gods and admission of certain indigenous groups into the upper levels of the caste structure and continued subjugation of the rest. With time, most of the distinctions were smoothed away, except for the caste system. I suspect Indians would be on far sounder ground if they attacked the caste system as a foreign corruption of their religion, rather than claiming it proudly as their own indigenous product. Can I prove any of this? No. Could a linguist? Yes and no, and perhaps. Therein lies the rub. David -----Original Message----- From: N. Ganesan To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 8:38 AM Subject: Re: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? >David Salmon writes: >[...] >* I think it is time to hear more from archaeologists, >* and less from linguists. [...] > > Despite sustained archaeological searches, NO horse > remains or equipment have been found in IVC dating prior to > 1700 B.C. In about 4000 Indus seals, found in a wide > area for about a century by archaeologists, horse is > NOT depicted. On the other hand, Aryans and horses > go hand in hand in the Rigveda. > > Linguistics points to the entry of Sanskrit into India > and not the other way around. The Indigenous Aryan school > is not able to dislodge this so far. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Nov 30 22:19:41 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 17:19:41 -0500 Subject: pANini's inspiration and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227043026.23782.2362509003911998284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an earlier posting, I had requested some information regarding the dakSiNAmUrti motif. Since there were no responses, I decided to post it again with some additional information. I feel that the tradition of ziva inspiring pANini might have been inspired by the story of dakSiNAmUrti. Consider the following attestations aRam kiLarum nAlvEtam Alin2 kIz iruntu aruLi (tevAram 1.131.7) sitting under the banyan tree and having bestowed the four vedas which expound the Rta .... Alin2 kIz aRagkaL ellAm an2Ru avarkku aruLicceytu nUlin2 kIzavarkaTku ellAm nuNporuL Aki nin2Ru (tevAram 4.36.6.1-2) Having bestowed upon them the Rtas under the banyan tree and for all the owners/authors of texts becoming the fine inner meaning.... kal Alin2 puTai amarntu nAl maRai ARu agkam mutal kaRRa kELvi vallArkaL nAlvarukkum vAkku iRanta pUraNam Ay maRaikkap pAlAy (tiruviLaiyATal purANam 14.2.14.1-2) Becoming the ancient legend beyond words for the four who learnt well the four vedas and six angas sitting beside the banyan tree and transcending the vedas .... One of the six angas is, of course, the grammar. There is an interesting episode in cilappatikAram, the Tamil epic (not later than 5th century AD), regarding the grammar, aindra. When kOvalan2, kaNNaki, and the Jain nun kavunti are travelling to Madurai, on the way they meet a brahmin who talks to them about a pond called holy zaravaNa in tirumAlkunRam (present azakar kOyil). He says that if the travelers take a bath in that pond, they will attain proficiency in the text of the chief of the devas, i.e., aindra. The Jain nun replies that there is no need to do what the brahmin suggests and that the text by Indra of kalpas is included in a Jain text. (The Tamil word for the Jain text is "meyppATTiyaRkai" and the commentators call it "paramAgama".) The importance of grammar as felt in Tamil land at the time and competition between different religious schools to possess it seems to come through this episode. tEvAram texts cited above may be dated to the early 7th century AD. The tiruviLaiyATal purANam is a later text. But the tradition may be even older. ziva in Classical Tamil texts is usually referred to by the name "Al amar celvan2" (the Izvara who sits under the banyan tree). Thus the dakSiNAmurti motif is very old. What I would like is more information to see if there are any Sanskrit or Buddhist precursors to this motif as found in Tamilnadu. I would very much like to know the following details regarding the dakSiNAmurti story in which ziva teaches four disciples/sages under the banyan tree. 1.The Sanskrit text that mentions this story for the first time and the date of the text 2. The subjects that ziva taught these four disciples/sages 3. The names of these four disciples/sages 4. The earliest iconographic representation of this story Thanks in advance Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Nov 30 22:24:44 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 17:24:44 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043029.23782.6055633013037767853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Lars, In a message dated 11/30/98 11:54:12 AM Central Standard Time, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes: > Hello Jacob, > > I am sorry that you keep getting these attachments, but you seem to be the > only one. At least no one else reports them. However, another contact > yesterday received an email which not only contained the attachment that was > supposed to be there, but also a large section of a private letter to my > daughter. I haven't the faintest idea what goes on, but I just received my > Microsoft User Group card, and I'll call them and see if they know more. I have also been getting attachments every time you post in Indology. Regards S. Palaniappan From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Mon Nov 30 17:35:18 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 18:35:18 +0100 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043002.23782.14005270519764650939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars: I keep getting attachments when you reply to a list message. Here is what I got this time. Jacob >Elliot Stern wrote: > >I found your reply to the query below understandable, but less than helpful. >There were 1050 items in the archives that turned up using the search term >"Aryan," and most of those of course were totally unrelated to the topic. >Of those that were, none (as far as my less-than-total review revealed) >improved upon the following excerpt from a message Jayant Bapak rather early >on in the debate: > >May I suggest that you in addition to "Aryan" also search for "Witzel". >Witzel has on some occasions summed up the arguments in favour of the >"invasion" (or rather "migration") theory. His emails will therefore give >you a reasonably good overview of the "invasionist" argument. > >As for archaeology: it has been said several times on this list that >archaeology is in no way so conclusive as som "indigenists" seem to think. >There is no necessary link between ethnicity, race, material culture and >language. (An argument for this was already developed by Boas in 1948, I >believe in another context). The irony of the thing is that this insight >now seems to have reached the Western side of the Indo-European question. >After a 150 years or so of archaeological research, a number of tightly >argued theories (e.g. Marija Gimbutas) and endless discussions, the German >archaeologist Alexander Haeusler has reached the conclusion that there is >no way European archaeology can be linked to an Indo-European invasion of >Europe. Whoever they were, and whenever they came (assuming that they >weren't here to begin with), archaeology doesn't give us any certain >information. > >Looking for "proof" in archaeology is therefore a waste of time. What you >do, is this: you collect as many data (linguistic and otherwise) as you >can, configure them in such a way that they give a pattern that makes >sense and interpret that pattern. It is the logic of the puzzle, and you >may perform the following experiment: Imagine that you have a puzzle >consisting of a 1000 pieces. Throw 800 of these pieces (chosen at random) >away and then try to reconstruct the picture (or simply: guess what the >picture represented). > >The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value >of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > > >Content-Type: application/ms-tnef > >Attachment converted: Alliance Drive?:SV- Is the Aryan Invasion a Myt >(????/----) (0000D45E) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SV-_Is_the_Aryan_Invasion_a_Myt.bin Type: application/applefile Size: 113 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SV-_Is_the_Aryan_Invasion_a_Myt.a Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 30 18:48:43 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 18:48:43 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043006.23782.3838385702315632431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Jacob, I am sorry that you keep getting these attachments, but you seem to be the only one. At least no one else reports them. However, another contact yesterday received an email which not only contained the attachment that was supposed to be there, but also a large section of a private letter to my daughter. I haven't the faintest idea what goes on, but I just received my Microsoft User Group card, and I'll call them and see if they know more. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no ---------- Fra: Jacob Baltuch[SMTP:jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE] Svar til: Indology Sendt: 30. november 1998 18:35 Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Emne: Re: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? <><> Dear Lars: I keep getting attachments when you reply to a list message. Here is what I got this time. Jacob >Elliot Stern wrote: > >I found your reply to the query below understandable, but less than helpful. >There were 1050 items in the archives that turned up using the search term >"Aryan," and most of those of course were totally unrelated to the topic. >Of those that were, none (as far as my less-than-total review revealed) >improved upon the following excerpt from a message Jayant Bapak rather early >on in the debate: > >May I suggest that you in addition to "Aryan" also search for "Witzel". >Witzel has on some occasions summed up the arguments in favour of the >"invasion" (or rather "migration") theory. His emails will therefore give >you a reasonably good overview of the "invasionist" argument. > >As for archaeology: it has been said several times on this list that >archaeology is in no way so conclusive as som "indigenists" seem to think. >There is no necessary link between ethnicity, race, material culture and >language. (An argument for this was already developed by Boas in 1948, I >believe in another context). The irony of the thing is that this insight >now seems to have reached the Western side of the Indo-European question. >After a 150 years or so of archaeological research, a number of tightly >argued theories (e.g. Marija Gimbutas) and endless discussions, the German >archaeologist Alexander Haeusler has reached the conclusion that there is >no way European archaeology can be linked to an Indo-European invasion of >Europe. Whoever they were, and whenever they came (assuming that they >weren't here to begin with), archaeology doesn't give us any certain >information. > >Looking for "proof" in archaeology is therefore a waste of time. What you >do, is this: you collect as many data (linguistic and otherwise) as you >can, configure them in such a way that they give a pattern that makes >sense and interpret that pattern. It is the logic of the puzzle, and you >may perform the following experiment: Imagine that you have a puzzle >consisting of a 1000 pieces. Throw 800 of these pieces (chosen at random) >away and then try to reconstruct the picture (or simply: guess what the >picture represented). > >The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value >of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > > >Content-Type: application/ms-tnef > >Attachment converted: Alliance Drive?:SV- Is the Aryan Invasion a Myt >(????/----) (0000D45E) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3649 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 30 19:56:34 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 19:56:34 +0000 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043013.23782.1375103862942692726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. Paul K. Manansala wrote: I strongly disagree. Linguistic evidence is weak because there is no single linguistic theory. Just look at the history of linguistics. Just over the last century, or even the last few decades, there have been major changes in language classification. Even at the present, there are a number of major overhauls proposed to the classification system by the most noted linguists. I don't think that language classification is very important here. As for archaeology, I have recently been in close contact with archaeological theory in connection with the Indo-European homeland, and I fail to find a unified theory. But then, so what? Scholars and scientists disagree. Major overhauls occur in all fields of scholarship and science. There is nothing particularly damning about that, it only shows that scholarship and science are progressing. Cultural evidence is interesting and helpful, but isolated cultural items pass easily from one people to the next without any need for migration much less invasion. May I direct your attention to the following works: Bruce Lincoln: Myth, Cosmos and Society. Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction. Harvard University Press, 1986. Lincoln addresses the problem you mention (which, by the way, is a very real one). If you belong to the German reading crowd, you may want to have a look at Ruediger Schmitt's Dichtung und Dichtersprache in indogermanischer Zeit. Otto Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden, 1967. See also "Indogermanische Dichtersprache", a collection of articles he edited for Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, Darmstadt 1968. Then of course, there is the work of Dumezil and his school, which is not accepted by everybody. But you may want to read: C. Scott Littleton, The New Comparative Mythology. An Anthropological Assessment of the Theories of Georges Dumezil. University of California Press, 1982. Bottom line: Whereas some cultural items undoubtedly migrate, there are some items that are hereditary and cannot be explained by migration. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2837 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 30 20:31:34 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 20:31:34 +0000 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043018.23782.2045850669003283042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nath wrote: On the other hand, philologists have been known to claim that Egyptians were inferior to Steppe people in making spoked wheels because the former used only 4 and occationaly 6 spokes, while the latter had 18 or more spokes. Somehow, such nonsense seems to escape ridicule. Nath, who ever said a stupid thing like that? Lars Martin Fosse wrote > Imagine that you have a puzzle consisting of a 1000 pieces. Throw > 800 of these pieces (chosen at random) away and then try to reconstruct > the picture (or simply: guess what the picture represented). Isn't there supposed to be another step: try to fit the 800 pieces in, with a bit of shaving or padding (errors in observation!), or explain why they are from a different puzzle? Or for that matter, try finding 200 hundred pieces belonging to several puzzles, all of which have about a thousand pieces. :-) > The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value > of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. Have you proposed this to archaeologists? What was the reaction? I have not proposed this to archaeologist. I value my life and health. :-) But let me be slightly more precise: Sometimes, archaeological evidence is very valuable. But you need a certain amount of it, and you also need to be able to show that certain archaeological items actually go with a certain group of people. Let me give an illustration: We have two peoples, A and B, and two items, x and y. The distribution of items looks like this: 1) A B x 650 15 y 41 701 I reasonable interpretation may be that item x is typical of culture A, whereas item y is typical of culture B. The stray items in both cultures may be due to trade. But if you have this distribution: 2) A B x 15 12 y 9 17 What conclusions would you draw? It would seem that the items are fairly equally distributed and not typical of any of the cultures. And yet, case 1) may represent the "underlying" distribution, and case 2) be the result of insufficient digging. And then of course, peoples speaking different languages (even belonging to different language families) may share the same material culture to the extent that they are hardly distinguishable in archaeological terms. Therefore, this Indo-European will remain sceptical of archaeology until someone comes up with a potsherd upon which it is written: "I am an Indo-European potsherd". How about this: The best evidence of flying machines in Ancient India is textual, coming from the puranas. The value of archaeology and engineering, if any at all, is quite subsidiary. Ahem, well, yes, in a sense. There are no flying machines found by archaeologists, but that doesn't prove that they didn't exist. Theoretically, we may not have found them. The reason why we don't believe in them is that the ancients had no knowledge of the necessary principles, nor the technology to make them. And of course, we can have a look at the flying persons in ancient Indian art which would suggest that ancient flying was just a daydream. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3325 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 30 23:49:26 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 23:49:26 +0000 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043032.23782.17452691144172651540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul K. Manansala wrote: Archaeology is quite different than linguistics though. Archaeology, at its base, is designed to trace movements of people. I agree it is not perfect, but how can you say that it is less relevant than linguistics? I am not saying that it is less relevant than linguistics in an absolute sense. Sometimes, archaeology gives vast amounts of valuabel information. What I am saying, is that when archaeological material is ambivalent and open to a number of interpretations, its value is correspondingly less. In the Indo-European context, it is obvious from the various interpretations of the archaeological material that it is not very informative about the movement of people. However, it will tell you a lot about the movements of artifacts and items of material culture. > Cultural evidence is interesting and helpful, but isolated cultural > items pass easily from one people to the next without any need for > migration much less invasion. > > May I direct your attention to the following works: > > Bruce Lincoln: Myth, Cosmos and Society. Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction. Harvard University Press, 1986. > > Lincoln addresses the problem you mention (which, by the way, is a very real one). > > Bottom line: Whereas some cultural items undoubtedly migrate, there are some items that are hereditary and cannot be explained by migration. Well, as one who tracks the current issues of most of the top genetics journals, this statement comes as a surpise. I'm not sure how non-geneticists were able to ascertain that any aspect of culture is "hereditary" (if you mean here at a molecular level). If you read the books I mention, you would perhaps see what I mean. Myths and epical motives may travel over vast distances (and get changed on the way), but there are certain combinations of detail and linguistic expression that would travel in that manner. When exact parallels exist, such as akshita shravas (skt) = aphthiton kleos (Greek), we know from the linguistic forms that these poetic expression must have been part of a formulaic poetic language that goes back to the time when there was no difference between Greek and Indo-Iranian. For more info, see Schmitt above. Does this mean that an Asian cannot inherit certain Western cultural features from the media or from studying in the West? Could you give examples of such features? How do these apply to the Aryan invasion theory? The points made above were not maed in the context of the Aryan invasion theory. They are relevant to Indo-European culture as a whole, and the point is to show that some cultural items can be shown to be inherited. Regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3057 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 30 23:57:25 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 23:57:25 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043035.23782.12139266752675408808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmania wrote: It is good to see that more people are shaking off the sheep mentality and questioning the dogma that has been peddled till now. I hope that the honest views of scholars like Denis Sinor, Narain and Linguists like R.M.W.Dixon will help in bringing some sanity. I must say that Dixon's "Rise and Fall of Languages" is an excellent book - lots of common sense in it. I happen to agree with you verdict on Dixon's book, but I fail to see that Dixon and Sinor should be more "honest" than people like Mallory. I have read both, and enjoy both. You also seem to have overlooked that Dixon has a generally high opinion of Indo-European linguistics, even if he is critical of some aspects of it. By the way, his critique and his new model ("convergence - divergence") is basically the same as Trubetskoy's critique and model, which was published in 1939. You may be happy to hear that Trubetskoy places the Indo-European homeland somewhere in Eurasia for various linguistic reasons (such as comparisons with features of Kartvelian and Finno-Ugric languages). Presumably, Trubetskoy should belong to the "common sense" people, too, since his model is not much different from Dixon's. :-) Sheepishly, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2233 bytes Desc: not available URL: