From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  1 02:49:27 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 31 May 98 22:49:27 -0400
Subject: A question on brahmins as messengers
Message-ID: <161227039471.23782.5165227243735705111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the Indo-Aryan texts, is there any tradition of brahmins serving as
messengers? If so, how old is it and how do they carry the message - just
orally or in writing? Thanks in advance for any information.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  1 14:53:07 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 07:53:07 -0700
Subject: sarasvatI (etymology)
Message-ID: <161227039496.23782.13701320663004229099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

[snip]> sarit.  Indo-Ir *sal 'salt' is seen in Uralic (Ob-Ugrian) sala
'salt)> (what about maru 'desert'??).[snip]

In Tamil, marutam means a fertile plain. (Maybe, muddy but fertile
'bog'?) The earth formations are explained in another lexeme: 'pa_lai'
is explained as: marutam tirintu pa_lai (i.e. fertile plain
transformed into a semi-arid zone).

>[snip] After all, we know where Avestan Haraxuuaitii > (Arachosia)
is and always has been: SW Afghanistan.  In The Rgveda we > have only
one or two Sarasvatis, barring the mythological ramifications
> (BEI 2,1984). [snip]

Is the reference to SW Afghanistan Haraquaiti which is a tributary of
kubha (which is a tributary of the Sindhu)? There is no 'maru' nearby.
There is also no association with dr.is.advati or apaya_.

Re: the association  of *sal- with 'salt' (semant.): In Pachbhadra
(south of Jodhpur) there is a vast chasm from which Vasis.t.ha
reportedly rescued the cow nandini. This area supports a large-sized
salt industry on the banks of lavan.avati_ (Luni). In Paleogeography,
the Luni is also shown as linked with Chambal. The eggression and
recession of the tethis sea is used to explain also the existence of
sea-fossils in Jaisalmer.

Regards,
k.
==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jun  1 13:30:06 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 08:30:06 -0500
Subject: Saras.. (Painted Grey Ware)
Message-ID: <161227039484.23782.9308500144269189112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:22 AM 5/30/98 -0400, Michael Witzel wrote:
>
><...Erdosy quotes snipped...>
>
>I think this should do it. Texts and archaeological evidence, time period
>and geographical spread of Middle Vedic and PGW overlap to a large degree.
>
>
You might be jumping the gun here....

If you noticed - the Ganga valley seem to have been very well settled
by the 2nd millenium BC, which causes Erdosy to write "Clearly, cultural
evolution in the area did not await the 'Aryan' colonists of the Vedic
texts".

So if you want to consider this the middle vedic age, you will have
to push back your dating for the Rgvedic period.

Regards,
Subrahmanya




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  1 13:53:46 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 09:53:46 -0400
Subject: sarasvatI (etymology)
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b1940e6cc3dc@[134.59.129.67]>
Message-ID: <161227039485.23782.11216081423581637246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 29 May 1998, Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

>         I would give here some remarks about the name of the Goddess and of
> the river. My opinion is that there was an early confusion between two
> Eurindian roots, *ser- and *sel-, both giving Skr. *sar-.
>
Mayrhofer has a similar remark in his new etym. Dict.(EWA II p. 708):
he wants to separate ved. sar 'to run, start running, flow (of
rivers)' < IE *sal,  from saras 'stagnant pool' < IE *se'les, thus from a
different root. Two different IE vowesl here (though that would not matter
for SS Misra, The Aryan Problem, for whom IE *a >  Greek e,o,a...)

As you say the two roots become, as far as sounds are concernd, one in
Vedic.

cf. also B.Reusch's quotes form the (older) Pokorny's IE Dict.

NB: some (like P. Thieme) also want to see the sal- "salt" etc, root in
India: in Vedic salila, an epithet of the sea "salty?"  (see Mayerhofer
EWA II 712) and also, with his penchant for (far-fetched) etymologies
<guru-ninda, I'm afraid>, or as Mayrhofer often says of the same
etymologies, 'geistreich', well...).

He adds :Marut as storm gods < *mar-vat "blowing from the ocean" and in
sarit.  Indo-Ir *sal 'salt' is seen in Uralic (Ob-Ugrian) sala 'salt)
(what about maru 'desert'??).

>         The confusion between the two roots gave an unexpected importance
> to this river name and the river became definitively linked to the Goddess.
> I believe that many rivers were named "sarasvatI", early as a common name,
> later to honour the Goddess and perhaps to perform some rituals.

Nice point. If we compare the, not etym. of course, the quite similar
Areduuii Suuraa Anaahitaa of the Avesta (Yast 5), there is, as far as I
remember no reference to speech/poetry.

The connection of Vaac and rivers, samudra (by implication, Sarasvatii)
is as old as RV 10.125.

> Hence, any
> archeological or geographical conclusion about such river is probably
> fruitless.

I am not so sure. After all, we know where Avestan Haraxuuaitii
(Arachosia)  is and always has been: SW Afghanistan.  In The Rgveda we
have only one or two Sarasvatis, barring the mythological ramifications
(BEI 2,1984). The rest is LATER. Application of an existing, in part
mythological river name to other areas ....



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  1 13:55:29 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 09:55:29 -0400
Subject: sarasvatI (etymology)
In-Reply-To: <199805311121.NAA04315@d1o26.telia.com>
Message-ID: <161227039487.23782.9474294411284884927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 31 May 1998, Raoul Martens wrote:

> Couldn't the Sarasvati name thus be related to the time before the
> final drying  up of the shallow and swampy lakes, where evidently many
> settlements existed?

As I have suggested earlier and cf. map in BEI 2, 1984.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  1 13:56:13 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 09:56:13 -0400
Subject: Saras.. (Painted Grey Ware)
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980601133006.00991218@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <161227039489.23782.3917807142355914920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote:

> If you noticed - the Ganga valley seem to have been very well settled
> by the 2nd millenium BC, which causes Erdosy to write "Clearly, cultural
> evolution in the area did not await the 'Aryan' colonists of the Vedic
> texts".

Of course, well settled. We have two things here:
settlement and cultural evolution by whoever, and additional, *added*
population. Note that even Jim Shaffer who in 1984 tried to discard the
:"linguistic tyranny"  of earlier immigration models has a clear model of
shift of population from the Panjab to the Upper doab. Quotes if wished.

(that shift, of course was one of "Indus" people).

What was developed by these newcomers (Indus people) is the 2 season
cropping with rice/wheat, etc.

What I add to this is development of something *new* on the basis of this
cultural development of the 2nd millennium, i.e the PGW culture of
1200-800 BC. (with -locally developed - iron, and introduction and use of
horse), as quoted last time.

Note that Erdosy USES Middle Vedic texts to adumbrate this period...

Of course, "Aryan colonists" were not necessary: They could not care
less about agriculture, and (in the texts) went eastwards, robbing grains
in the Fall...

As Kuiper has shown by a study of the non IA words in the RV, agriculture
was not one the Indo-Aryan's favorite occupations. Even modern Hindi has
some 30 % of agricultural vocabulary which is not explainable as IA,
Drav., Munda...  (though those for cattle herding etc. are largely IA)
<All in Masica 1969>

I am talking of a new culture here, a symbiosis of local + "aryan" traits.

> So if you want to consider this the middle vedic age, you will have
> to push back your dating for the Rgvedic period.

Certainly, before 1200, as the RV does not yet have iron (PGW has)
All listed last time.


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From strnad at SITE.CAS.CZ  Mon Jun  1 07:58:35 1998
From: strnad at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jaroslav Strnad)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 09:58:35 +0200
Subject: Verbal Reflexives
Message-ID: <161227039473.23782.8588634195711970071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The most detailed analysis of compound verbal expressions in Hindi is to
be found in a series of articles written by the late Vincenc Porizka,
founder of Hindi studies in Czechoslovakia. See his:
On the Perfective Verbal Aspect in Hindi. In: Archiv Orientalni, vol.
XXXV (1967), pp.64-88, 208-231; XXXVI (1968), pp. 233-251; XXXVII
(1969), pp. 19-47, 345-364.
For a short general overview of his position in interpreting this
complex grammatical phenomenon, see also his:
Hindstina - Hindi Language Course. Cast I. - Part I. Praha 1972 (2nd
ed.), p. 232 and esp. pp. 554-567.
It should be said that Porizka's interpretation is not the only one,
although it is probably the most carefully thought-out, researched and
formulated. His line of interpretation has been continued by his pupil,
now professor, Helmuth Nespital, whose latest contribution (announced in
this list last December) bears the title:
Hindi Kriya-Kosh/ Dictionary of Hindi Verbs
(Subtitle) Containing all Simple and Compound Verbs, their
Lexical Equivalents in English and Illustrations of their Usage
xxviii + 1165 pages. Price: Rs. 1100.00
Publisher: Lokbharti Prakashan, Allahabad, India.
(I have not seen this book yet).
Sincerely,
                                        Jaroslav Strnad
                                        strnad at orient.cas.cz




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  1 13:58:36 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 09:58:36 -0400
Subject: Indo-Aryan im-/e-migration discussion and beyond
In-Reply-To: <01IXP76O81Z894DWRU@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl>
Message-ID: <161227039491.23782.15231367890570371780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 31 May 1998, Jan E.M. Houben wrote:

> Is there a way to proceed the discussion and to make it more fruitfull

> It could also be more fruitful to focus on part-problems rather than directly
> problem of the age of the Vedic literature.

good point, but you probably evoke the same spirits as before (note the
reaction to studying abroad!).... because the age of the Vedas is also a
matter of ... belief.

(from Feuerstein/Frawley to... let's say, W. Rau, (who , some decades
ago, wanted to put the RV later than 1000 BC...)

> The two periods of urbanization are now
> archeologically well established,  ...
> Aryans must have been around in the north of the Indian subcontinent.

Your statement about internal chronology (RV ---> YV  and no rice --->
rice)  are indeed staple food for Vedicists.

> though some variations in ordering and redaction remained possible <<of
RV>>.

precisely, though little REAL additions (the Rgveda Khila-s)

> later times the Rgvedic hymns are fixed in more and more precise ways
> (zAkalya, preceding pANini).

but RV Brahmanas  show how *little* phonetic variation there actually
was...

> creation of NEW hymns (according to authentic and traditional
> techniques)
vs:
> only few hymns as available now have been petrified.

Actually we can see the transition point (little observed!) in the NEW
speculative hymns of the AV (Saunaka Samhita 8-12, PS 16-17)
 (See: Inside the Texts, Beyond the texts, Cambridge 1997)

> To determine this
> melting point and to associate it with an archeological context will be
> an important task of cooperating Vedic philologists and South Asian
> archeologists,

See recent discussion on iron: no Iron in RV, first iron in AV (in its
"speculative section", but belonging to older part of AV, still to its
nucleus :  found both in Saun. and Paipp. stanzas). Details in "Inside the
texts..."  > >

Iron is dated in S. Asia to 1200 BC.

Therefore....


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun  1 10:58:01 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 12:58:01 +0200
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039477.23782.2041088689334254187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 13:26 31.05.98 -0700, you wrote:
>---Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:
>
>> I think you forget one very important factor here - MONEY.
>
>So, the thread should read: truth, method and money!
>I remember reading about an ancient Tibetan scholar (who came to India
>to study Buddhism and alchemy from Nagarjuna) stating that one needed
>lots of money to learn about religion in India...

Hmm... I didn't actually want to start a new thread. I just pointed to the
very obvious fact that to all knowledge acquisition, there is an economic
side :-)

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun  1 11:34:53 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 13:34:53 +0200
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039480.23782.208461519703474251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 16:28 31.05.98 PDT, you wrote:
>>If Indian universities and institutions make serious efforts to get the
>latest
>>information and get trained in the best methods in medical and
>technical
>>disciplines and establish international exchanges etc. in order to
>acquire the
>>ability to make reliable decisions in these fields
>>(and to make atom bombs that WORK . . . ),
>>why should much lower standards be accepted if someone claims to make
>reliable
>>statements about the cultural and linguistic past of South Asia ?
>
>May I point out that getting trained in Munchen or Paris or Cambridge
>(near Boston) is not at all a necessary prerequisite for making reliable
>decisions in any field? Do note that Dr. Abdul Kalam, the father of the
>Indian bomb and the Indian long-range missiles, is completely
>*Indi*genous - he does not have a single scientific degree from outside
>the country.

Nice pun. Also: India produces a certain amount of professional people every
year that are certainly up to world standards - in fact, the Americans
routinely try to capture some of them for work in the US. A few years ago,
when I did statistics, I noticed that a surprising amount of books on the
subject were written or co-written by Indians. In statistics, India
apparently is a leading nation.

But this is again a function of investments. India wants to be an economic
and military power, and consequently is willing to pay the price. Which is
why India can make nukes go bang, but has been unable to nearly teach half
its population how to read and write.

>This is not an argument for Indian isolationism, nor is it meant to
>legitimate the shoddy work that some Indian paNDitam-manyAH produce. I
>just want to point out that maybe international scholarship (in all
>fields) will stand to gain by giving a fair hearing to those not from
>the West, instead of dismissing their opinions as arising simply out of
>chauvinism or jingoism, or holding a lack of Western training against
>them. Being from a post-colonial nation, Indians are especially
>sensitive to this issue.

Granted. Scientific American some time ago ran an article on the plight of
scientists working in "third-world" countries. Some of them had returned
from the West, where they had had not problem publishing their work, only to
discover that when their address changed, so did their opportunities for
publishing.

On the other hand, certain standards have to be kept up. And a look at some
Indian research journals in our field makes one wonder where the editors
were when the edition was prepared.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun  1 11:34:55 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 13:34:55 +0200
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039482.23782.3460405810059923066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 And unbelievable as it may seem, a
>substantial portion (or all) of the newest Indian and Pakistani bombs is
>due to domestic expertise, and in spite of Western opposition, not due
>to any great assistance. This might be a bizarre thing to be proud of,
>but such is international politics.

According to international news agencies, the Indians had a certain amount
of assistance from Russian experts in the field. The Pakistanis got a lot of
assistance from China. Both countries have used the usual intelligence
techniques for extracting relevant information and material from the West.
Neither Pakistan nor India built their bombs from scratch. But this is not
to say that they couldn't have done so if necessary. It would just have
taken more time, and more money.

However, this is not an Indological theme, and I realise that I am drifting
off into a discussion that belongs elsewhere. So I'll stop here.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 21:27:56 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 14:27:56 -0700
Subject: A question on brahmins as messengers
Message-ID: <161227039507.23782.16708591715979490048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From:         Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>


In the Indo-Aryan texts, is there any tradition of brahmins serving as
>messengers? If so, how old is it and how do they carry the message -
just orally or in writing? Thanks in advance for any information.

>Regards
>S. Palaniappan


  I'm not sure of what you have in mind when you say "Indo-Aryan" texts,
but if you are refering to Samskrt texts in general, then there
is a story in the "vEtalapamchavimzatikA" where a Brahmin lad( from what
I remember of the story) helps his friend( a prince) court and marry a
princess by name padmAvatI. He is one of the messengers sent by the
prince, besides an old nurse who had looked after the princess.
AFAIK, the messages in this story are relayed by mouth.

Regards,
Krishna


______________________________________________________
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From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 22:28:54 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 15:28:54 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039515.23782.3992928272879626260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Perhaps attacks on religious scriptures would be better posted to
>alt.atheism rather than a scholarly forum for the discussion of
Indology.
>
>Best wishes,
>Chris

I'd take it one step further and request nettors not to discuss the
bomb(s), afterall it degenarates into vitriol-spewing or passing
meaningless resolutions a la the UNO after an iteration or two...

Regards,
Krishna
>


______________________________________________________
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From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  1 23:01:00 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 16:01:00 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039519.23782.5499896692296904235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---S Krishna <mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
[snip] request nettors not to discuss the > bomb(s), afterall it
degenarates into vitriol-spewing or passing > meaningless resolutions
a la the UNO after an iteration or two...
>
This mailing list may not be the appropriate forum, unless of course
someone says the stuff already existed in ancient times or used in the
great war!

Apart from the CNN bulletin board  or alt. groups, where people do
vent their feelings on this topic, is there a forum on the web to
discuss, professionally, political economy: say, the 'defense' issues
of energy security and nuclear strategies...? Or, is this 'use of
physics or defense economics' a taboo all over the web and by
definition, an 'emotional' subject? I couldn't find any on the
thousands of subjects listed in discussion or news groups. I would
appreciate help on this info.

Shouldn't the web have forums to expand the talk-shows hosted on many
TV channels (which normally include 'professional' spin-doctors)?

Regards,
k.


==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
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From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Jun  1 15:19:45 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 16:19:45 +0100
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039493.23782.768941560518849797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 31 May 1998, "S. Kalyanaraman" <kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>> ---Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:

>> I think you forget one very important factor here - MONEY.

>So, the thread should read: truth, method and money!

Money is everywhere, academic exchange programs are everywhere. Why are they
not or very little used for Vedic studies, in spite of their cultural
importance? I presume that if a study results in more than mere guesswork,
there are better chances to get (international) funding for it, or to get
acceptance for academic exchange, etc. So we come back at 'method'.

Note that I am not considering the exchange programs from the point of view of
well-intending individuals, but I am talking of the level of academic
administration. Moreover, I am aware of some international cooperation programs
in which Indian universities are involved (without focus on Vedic studies as
far as I know); but it seems that the exchange between Indological departments
of e.g. U.S., German, Japanese universities is much more intensive. I forgot
the details, but in pre-second world war Germany there was a conscious program
to accept a few excellent Indian students/scholars for philological training in
Germany. As far as I know this produced some internationally renowned
Indologists working (in India or elsewhere) according to the highest possible
scholarly standards of their time. To get afoot, now or in the future, any such
exchange program with places of academic excellence in India with support from
any government or university (India or elsewhere), a period of research
resulting in more than mere guesswork is needed, so we are back at the point of
'method'.

I could give a list of points on which Western (European) and Eastern
(Japanese) scholars could make *methodological* improvements in their research.
(Note that my interest concerns the root of the tree of knowledge rather than
its fruit; I am aware that many Indians would like to see different
*conclusions* from Indological research.) But I would like to get such a list
from an Indian student or scholar trained at and connected with an Indian
university, and focusing on Indology and Vedic studies. Why was there (as far
as I could discern) no such person among the participants in the Indian im-/e-
migration discussion last month and before? (For obvious reasons we have to
exclude all well-intending NRIs.) Computers are now present at many Indian
institutes and universities, and subscription to the Indology list is free
(thank you, Dominik). Is there eagerness to improve methods only in medical and
technical studies (remember the succesful atomic BOMB project), but not in
Indian Indology? We are back at the point of 'method'.

S'ubham astu, JH




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  1 23:42:24 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 16:42:24 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039521.23782.4089475305820469152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>According to international news agencies, the Indians had a certain
amount
>of assistance from Russian experts in the field.

The latest round took Boris as much by surprise as it did Bill and
Blair.

ity alam,

Vidyasankar

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From AppuArchie at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  1 20:45:11 1998
From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 16:45:11 -0400
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039503.23782.559756785192734537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-05-31 19:58:49 EDT, you write:

<< It is now almost three weeks after Pokhran-II, and a day after the most
 recent test in Chagai. I've seen no direct reference to the nuclear
 testing on this list. Maybe Sarasvati and Dravidian etymology are
 explosive enough for us here. Maybe the bomb is not one of the issues
 that Indology should bother about. >>
>?From Christian Bomb to Communist, Jew, Hindu and Islam Bombs. What more do we
need?

All nations are replete with mythological attribution to divine or devil
retribution. The almost whole world is into religious faith due to fear, or
lack of awareness of the hypocrisy of religious leaders.  Our religious works
have brain washed us with sordid tales of Sodom and Gomorrah, Angels and
Demons and the timely intervention of divine power to save or destroy the good
guys and the bad guys as they fit the authors fancy.

Hindus had a Krishna who encouraged killing, and also had a Gandhi  who in
time of total weakness practised non-violence and the British under a war torn
economy let go India and other colonies. Things have changed, each nation has
to be prepared to ensure security and in the process will get blown up. Or the
almighty will appear in some form, may be inanimate this time, in the form of
a nuclear weapon from unheard of tiny rogue nations such as Sri Lanka, who
think, Buddha has decreed that the Buddhist tenet will be maintained in its
pristine form by annihilating the Tamils of Tamil Eelam. Who is fooling whom?




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun  1 14:56:00 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 16:56:00 +0200
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039495.23782.7610193780849329321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 16:19 01.06.98 +0100, you wrote:
>On Sun, 31 May 1998, "S. Kalyanaraman" <kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>>> ---Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:
>
>>> I think you forget one very important factor here - MONEY.
>
>>So, the thread should read: truth, method and money!
>
>Money is everywhere, academic exchange programs are everywhere. Why are they
>not or very little used for Vedic studies, in spite of their cultural
>importance? I presume that if a study results in more than mere guesswork,
>there are better chances to get (international) funding for it, or to get
>acceptance for academic exchange, etc. So we come back at 'method'.

I agree that Indology could use some better methods. I have myself tried to
work in that direction when I did my study of statistical methods for use in
an Indological context. However, the money question is very real: When
Indological jobs are cancelled for money reasons, as happens here in the
West, then the subject suffers. As far as India is concerned, even with
modern computational technology, the acquisition of Indological literature
from outside India (as well as other literature pertaining to the
humanities) is a need to stay abreast with research. And it must be terribly
expensive, given the prices. I therefore think that it would be fairer to
India to publish Indological literature there, rather than i Europe/the US.
Thus, everybody would have a fair chance of reading the latest stuff.

>I could give a list of points on which Western (European) and Eastern
>(Japanese) scholars could make *methodological* improvements in their research.

Please do!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From bvi at AFN.ORG  Mon Jun  1 21:06:18 1998
From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 17:06:18 -0400
Subject: A question on brahmins as messengers
Message-ID: <161227039505.23782.13238120467403589021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:49 PM 5/31/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In the Indo-Aryan texts, is there any tradition of brahmins serving as
>messengers? If so, how old is it and how do they carry the message - just
>orally or in writing? Thanks in advance for any information.

BhAgavata PurANa 10.52.26 relates how rukmiNI, princess of vidarbha, once
sent a brAhmaNa messenger to Lord kRSNa. The translation I read indicated
the message was in writing. That incident would have occurred in the same
century as the mahAbhArata war.

Best wishes,

Chris




From bvi at AFN.ORG  Mon Jun  1 22:06:46 1998
From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:06:46 -0400
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039512.23782.6733277745139231024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 04:45 PM 6/1/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-05-31 19:58:49 EDT, you write:
>
><< It is now almost three weeks after Pokhran-II, and a day after the most
> recent test in Chagai. I've seen no direct reference to the nuclear
> testing on this list. Maybe Sarasvati and Dravidian etymology are
> explosive enough for us here. Maybe the bomb is not one of the issues
> that Indology should bother about. >>
>From Christian Bomb to Communist, Jew, Hindu and Islam Bombs. What more do we
>need?
>
>All nations are replete with mythological attribution to divine or devil
>retribution. The almost whole world is into religious faith due to fear, or
>lack of awareness of the hypocrisy of religious leaders.  Our religious works
>have brain washed us with sordid tales of Sodom and Gomorrah, Angels and
>Demons and the timely intervention of divine power to save or destroy the good
>guys and the bad guys as they fit the authors fancy.

Perhaps attacks on religious scriptures would be better posted to
alt.atheism rather than a scholarly forum for the discussion of Indology.

Best wishes,
Chris




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  1 22:24:22 1998
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:24:22 -0400
Subject: literature on commentarial style
In-Reply-To: <199805190423.OAA25382@anugpo.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <161227039513.23782.4010960523771449675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 19 May 1998, Adrian Burton wrote:

> Can anyone direct me to *any* discussion of the traditional style used by
> commentators ( i.e., the literary style employed by the writers of
> bhaashya, Tiikaa, TippaNii etc.).

Gary Tubb, whose e-mail is on the cc above, has written some excellent
notes on the commentarial tradition. They are, alas, unpublished, but
you might be able to get some kind of a copy.....Regards,  Edwin Bryant




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Mon Jun  1 16:31:07 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:31:07 +0200
Subject: The south Asian bombs
In-Reply-To: <19980531235748.695.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227039510.23782.9393287428240032474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote
>The ten (or eleven) explosions in south Asia have brought us no
>further into Kaliyuga than the thousands of explosions that preceded
>them elsewhere in the world.

        Undoubtly true. But not a reason to continue. As a French, I have
fought against a bomb in my home, I'll fight against all bomb.
        The vajra is a God's weapon, humans must be more humble.
Dominique

PS: Sorry, Dominik. I'll stop here.

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  1 22:58:16 1998
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:58:16 -0400
Subject: Indian Priorities
Message-ID: <161227039517.23782.7808990931350577306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>India produces a certain amount of professional people every
>year that are certainly up to world standards


A common observation I have heard from Indian Sanskrit faculty, teaching in
Indian universities, about their Indian students, is this:

In the 50s and 60s, Sanskrit attracted many of the best students. From the 70s
onwards, many of the students have been failed applicants to other fields such
as engineering.



--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com




From yaap at XS4ALL.NL  Mon Jun  1 20:04:16 1998
From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 22:04:16 +0200
Subject: "original" Buddhists -- Brahuis?
Message-ID: <161227039500.23782.3116683818491099487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:07:08 +0800 (CST)
Miroslav Rozehnal wrote:

>I wonder if there has been done any research on surviving Buddhist
>communities in Indian subcontinent.

An illustration of two stone structures in Brahui country,
called 'Cheda pillars' by the author, is to be found in
Henry W. Bellew's "From the Indus to the Tigris",
London 1874, on page 56.

The illustrated structures, although much smaller, look very similar
to stupas.  Bellew: "They are erected to the memory of
clansmen who have died without issue........"

Could these be distant memories to a buddhist past ?

Any clues/ opinions as to these structures ?


Regards,

Jaap Pranger

--




From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun  2 03:12:57 1998
From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 22:12:57 -0500
Subject: literature on commentarial style
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980601182032.29860I-100000@login5.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227039523.23782.17568177451579383202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My undergraduate mentor, Boyd H. Wilson, who is responsible for my current
Iowa residence as he did his Ph.D. here, wrote about Shankara's commentary
style in no small detail.  I think his diss can be accessed by
interlibrary loan.  Boyd is currently at Hope College, in Holland, MI.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner, Ph.D.  Obermann Center
School of Religion           for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa          University of Iowa
319-335-2164                319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org          www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Now, at some point you may encounter the Devil's Bargain.  Any old soul
is worth saving, at least to a priest, but not every soul is worth
buying.  So you can take the offer as a compliment. . . . "
                                --William S. Burroughs
                                "Words of Advice for Young People"

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Edwin Bryant wrote:

> On Tue, 19 May 1998, Adrian Burton wrote:
>
> > Can anyone direct me to *any* discussion of the traditional style used by
> > commentators ( i.e., the literary style employed by the writers of
> > bhaashya, Tiikaa, TippaNii etc.).
>
> Gary Tubb, whose e-mail is on the cc above, has written some excellent
> notes on the commentarial tradition. They are, alas, unpublished, but
> you might be able to get some kind of a copy.....Regards,  Edwin Bryant
>




From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL  Mon Jun  1 21:40:55 1998
From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 22:40:55 +0100
Subject: The south Asian bombs
In-Reply-To: <19980531235748.695.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227039542.23782.10969443975221780896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Op maandag, 01-jun-98 schreef Vidyasankar Sundaresan:

VS> It is now almost three weeks after Pokhran-II, and a day after the most
VS> recent test in Chagai. I've seen no direct reference to the nuclear
VS> testing on this list. Maybe Sarasvati and Dravidian etymology are
VS> explosive enough for us here. Maybe the bomb is not one of the issues
VS> that Indology should bother about.

VS> If so, it would be much appreciated if indirect references to it,
VS> frequently in a negative/contemptuous tone, are also avoided. If there
VS> is to be any talk about the bombs, let it be done directly and in the
VS> open. The ten (or eleven) explosions in south Asia have brought us no
VS> further into Kaliyuga than the thousands of explosions that preceded
VS> them elsewhere in the world. And unbelievable as it may seem, a
VS> substantial portion (or all) of the newest Indian and Pakistani bombs is
VS> due to domestic expertise, and in spite of Western opposition, not due
VS> to any great assistance. This might be a bizarre thing to be proud of,
VS> but such is international politics.

I think the problem is the angle. I think that no person with the slightest amount of common sense is applauding the latest fireworks of the party of Bombs Jabber and Poverty. But India is not alone. Other countries like France made the same mistake fairly recently. But what amazed me was the almost total absence of any antinuclear protest, like we've seen in France. Such demonstrations can count as kind of a slight rehabilitation. But they didn't happen in mother Bharat. Gandhi must be turning and tossing in his grave! I wonder if the popularity of the RAmAyana and Bhagavad GItA are causing this blindness. The real battle of power is going on in the field of economy and India (and Pakistan of course) are going down here. The battle on the nuclear field is over, since most politicians understand that nobody can win a nuclear war and the possession of nuclear weapens is very expensive and full of risks. 
Rama and Arjuna are no executives, but fighters who use mythical nuclearish weaponry to defie the bad guys. Maybe many Indians see the atom bomb just as a new episode of one of their great epics. My suggestion would be therefore to look at the question: 'in what way and to what extend does Indian mythology influence Indian economics and politics?' 




regards  erik


 *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
  Erik Hoogcarspel           <    jehms at globalxs.nl     ><       Boerhaaveln 99b     >
                             <    tl+31.(0)104157097    ><       3112 LE Schiedam    >
                             <    fx+31.(0)842113137    ><       Holland             >
 *===================================================================================*




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Tue Jun  2 10:11:16 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 04:11:16 -0600
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039526.23782.14227072349404535349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,

A fellow-instructor at The School of the Art Institute of Chicago--someone
who has been practicing ashtangi-yoga far longer than Madonna, I might
add--is currently researching the iconography of yoga-straps in Indian art
and contemporary meditational practice.  Though I am able to direct him to
numerous visual occurences instances of the motif [from the North torana at
Sanchi to the 16th c.Caurapanchashika mss. illuminations] neither of us
have been able to locate any textual references to this accouterment.

Here is Monier-Williams's citation: yoga-paTTa[ka] (HarSa-carita, PadmaP):
m. the cloth thrown over the back and knees of a devotee during meditation.

And the obvious query: if any one can direct us to a chapter and verse in
either cited work, or elsewhere, we'd be much obliged.

Much Thanks,
Michael Rabe
Assoc. Prof. of Art History
Saint Xavier University
&
The School of the Art Institute of Chicago




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Tue Jun  2 17:00:39 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 09:00:39 -0800
Subject: vimzati? -vimzatikA?
Message-ID: <161227039538.23782.14096984004027999104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

vi.m;satikaa is a diminutive of vi.m;sati. However, sometimes diminutives
lose their 'edge' or special connotation. Sometimes the connotation is
ignored for the sake of metre, etc. In the case of a text title ending in
vi.m;satikaa, there is an even greater likelihood that this would happen,
either because not much significance may be seen in the diminution of a
specific number or because 'twenty' is already (relatively) small or short
and hence not particularly inviting for further diminution.

The intention in applying the suffix -ka/-ikaa in the first place (assuming
that authors like Vasu-bandhu chose the title -- that the title with the
diminutive suffix is the original or genuine title) could have been to
indicate modesty (cf. usages such as 'my small contribution, my two cents
worth') or the short span of the metre (20 verses in sragdharaa or
;saarduula-vikrii.dita take far more space thatn 20 anu.s.tubh-s). The
application of the diminutive suffix could also be due to the affection the
later tradition had for the work. Diminutives frequently connotes
endearment.  -- ashok aklujkar

Jonathan SILK wrote:

>Probably this is a stupid question, but:
>
>Is there something more than free variation going on in the parallel use of
>both VetalapamcavimzatikA and Vetalapamcavimzati? A relatively brief look
>at the books I have which might mention this turned up nothing other than
>the fact that editions and studies seem to use the two interchangeably (as
>far as I could notice in a cursory glance).
>
>Jonathan SILK
>
>****Note New Email Address***:
>
>jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Tue Jun  2 17:00:39 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 09:00:39 -0800
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039540.23782.5631261077404033395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe in a naandii verse of the play M.rcchaka.tika there is a
reference to yoga-pa.tta. If that is not the case, I will write again. I do
not have the text handy. -- ashok aklujkar




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jun  2 13:35:23 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 09:35:23 -0400
Subject: "Crux of Chronology"
Message-ID: <161227039535.23782.15786603507088267464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could the publications details of "Crux of Chronology" be posted?  I don't
find it in LC's database even on order, or on OCLC.

Allen Thrasher
Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun  2 09:58:29 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 10:58:29 +0100
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039525.23782.11095309722791389681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wrote:

>I could give a list of points on which Western (European) and Eastern
>(Japanese) scholars could make *methodological* improvements in their research.

L.M. Fosse wrote:
>Please do!

However, I also wrote:

>But I would like to get such a list from an Indian student or scholar trained
>at and connected with an Indian university, and focusing on Indology and Vedic
>studies.

Nevertheless, let me mention a single point: further research in the direction
pointed out in your recent book The crux of chronology: statistics and
Indology: a study of method (Oslo 1997) will be of great value for a
methodologically improved Indology. In addition to the almost universal
chronology question, the many authorship-issues in Indology could be tackled
with the help of statistical tools. A recent, partly problematic yet
interesting attempt in this direction in the thesis van der Geer, Leiden 1998:
the bhAsa-problem.

Now I wait further for an Indian list. And, just to be on the safe side,  I
repeat my note that I am here interested in *methodological* problems:

>my interest concerns the root of the tree of knowledge rather than
>its fruit; I am aware that many Indians would like to see different
>*conclusions* from Indological research.

JH




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun  2 10:12:42 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 11:12:42 +0100
Subject: Truth and method in Indology
Message-ID: <161227039528.23782.7473082889070512913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 31 May 1998,  S Krishna <mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>  One interesting development from the discussion seems to be that
we have *obtained* *limits* for Veda composition: The Sarasvatists( from
what I understand) think that it happened in 8000 BC and Manansala-ists(
after Paul Kekai Manansala) think it was composed
in 500 BC...so why don't we just average the whole thing out?

What is the value of the average of two guesses of which at least one can be
quite easily disproved? Rather search for more satisfactory methods than for
quick and soothing results. See end of my first *truth and method* posting for
some hints on the methodological state of the art of the main disciplines
involved in the issue. And see my posting *Indo-Aryan im-/e-migration
discussion and beyond* for a suggestion how to proceed in a methodologically
sound way.

Greetings, JH




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun  2 09:25:48 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 11:25:48 +0200
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039530.23782.14303600290065439870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>However, I also wrote:
>
>>But I would like to get such a list from an Indian student or scholar trained
>>at and connected with an Indian university, and focusing on Indology and Vedic
>>studies.
>
>Nevertheless, let me mention a single point: further research in the direction
>pointed out in your recent book The crux of chronology: statistics and
>Indology: a study of method (Oslo 1997) will be of great value for a
>methodologically improved Indology. In addition to the almost universal
>chronology question, the many authorship-issues in Indology could be tackled
>with the help of statistical tools. A recent, partly problematic yet
>interesting attempt in this direction in the thesis van der Geer, Leiden 1998:
>the bhAsa-problem.

I have a comment concerning the use of statistics in Indology. I personally
think they could be very useful, but: If we want statistics to be useful we
have to reconsider the traditional scholars way of work. There are today two
potential models:

1: A single scholar slaves for years analysing texts and then run them
through various statistical packages in order to evaluate them. George
Biber, an American working in the field, summed up this model in the
following manner:

        you work for two years analysing data
        you spend 30 sekonds running them through the computer
        you spend the next two years evaluating the results.

Not a very economical method when Indological research is concerned,
considering the vastness of the literature.

2: You attack the problem as a team. 10 - 20 - 30 or more persons spend a
year analysing data (tagging). You run them through the computer. Two or
three people with specialist competence in statistics and Indology spend
half a year evaluating the results.

I think I can guarantee that this procedure would produce interesting and
valuable results, 1) because you can analyse much more data, and 2) because
you can draw on specialised expertise from various fields.

But notice: Model 2 explodes the traditional work style of the philological
scholar and turns him into an ordinary team member, working in the way
research is conducted in industry and large-scale science projects. So where
do we get the funding, and where does our academic merit go?

If we stick to the individualist way of working, we'll may never come much
further in some fields.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  2 15:50:25 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 11:50:25 -0400
Subject: A question on brahmins as messengers
Message-ID: <161227039536.23782.5878658212404495808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to all those who responded privately and publicly to this query.

In a message dated 98-06-01 17:28:58 EDT, mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<<  I'm not sure of what you have in mind when you say "Indo-Aryan" texts,
 but if you are refering to Samskrt texts in general, then there
 is a story in the "vEtalapamchavimzatikA" where a Brahmin lad( from what
 I remember of the story) helps his friend( a prince) court and marry a
 princess by name padmAvatI. He is one of the messengers sent by the
 prince, besides an old nurse who had looked after the princess.
 AFAIK, the messages in this story are relayed by mouth. >>

I am referring to Sanskrit, Pali, and Prakrit texts. I am trying to compare
the messenger traditions in north India and South, especially Tamil. In the CT
texts we find messengers who are called "pArppAn2". In one instance
(akanAn2URu 334) , he carries some message written on a palm leaf. The highway
robbers mistake the bright palm leaf he carried to be gold and kill him. After
they examine what he really carried, they leave, and a fox eats the body.
There are no descriptive terms in the poem such as "well-versed in the Vedas"
or "wearing the sacred thread", etc. referring to the messenger. To me this
suggests that the messenger was not a brahmin.

Earlier Chris Beetle has written
<<BhAgavata PurANa 10.52.26 relates how rukmiNI, princess of vidarbha, once
sent a brAhmaNa messenger to Lord kRSNa. The translation I read indicated
the message was in writing. That incident would have occurred in the same
century as the mahAbhArata war.>>

Regarding the bhAgavata purANa, I am not sure if this text can be used to
compare north Indian and Tamil traditions as outlined here because even though
this is a Sanskrit text, it was composed in the Tamil region and other
scholars have noted typical Tamil themes being used in this text.
Incidentally, in cilappatikAram which was written earlier than bhAgavata, a
brahmin does carry a message written on a palm leaf by mAtavi to kOvalan2 .

What would really help are any references from earlier texts such as
Mahabharata.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  2 20:24:46 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 13:24:46 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039552.23782.2826791870037172092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I think the problem is the angle. I think that no person with the
slighte=
>st amount of common sense is applauding the latest fireworks of the
party=
> of Bombs Jabber and Poverty. But India is not alone. Other countries
lik=
>e France made the same mistake fairly recently. But what amazed me was
th=
>e almost total absence of any antinuclear protest, like we've seen in
Fra=
>nce. Such demonstrations can count as kind of a slight rehabilitation.
Bu=
>t they didn't happen in mother Bharat.

One cannot expect serious protest from the people of a country where
Bombs are seen as a way out of the incoherent political Jabber and the
crushing Poverty. It is like the paradox of renunciation - it is worth
something to renounce one's wealth, but to do so, one first has to be
rich. The poor man has nothing to renounce in the first place. So he
first has to acquire and only then can he think of renouncing. And when
the poor man tells the rich man to renounce, he faces a huge wall of
cynicism. Think of nuclear arsenals in the same way as wealth, and
India's past attempts at preaching disarmament as the poor man's advice
to the rich.

And protest or no, the calculating minds of any country's military
machine will do their tests. All the protests did not stop France from
conducting a test a day before putting its signature on a treaty. Why
hold the rulers of India (irrespective of their ideologies) to any
different standards?

>Gandhi must be turning and tossing=
> in his grave! I wonder if the popularity of the RAmAyana and Bhagavad
GI=
>tA are causing this blindness. The real battle of power is going on in
th=
>e field of economy and India (and Pakistan of course) are going down
here=
>=2E The battle on the nuclear field is over, since most politicians
under=
>stand that nobody can win a nuclear war and the possession of nuclear
wea=
>pens is very expensive and full of risks. =
>

True, but the same politicians also realize that it is only the one who
is willing to take the risks of possessing nuclear weapons who can hope
for some gain. And nuclear bombs or no, the economy would have its own
problems. The basic attitude is - why not face the economic problems
with some military might at one's disposal, instead of without? There is
also the other possibility that defence spending might kick-start the
economy, as it did for the USA, throughout the decades of the Cold War.

>Rama and Arjuna are no executives, but fighters who use mythical
nucleari=
>sh weaponry to defie the bad guys. Maybe many Indians see the atom bomb
j=
>ust as a new episode of one of their great epics. My suggestion would
be =
>therefore to look at the question: 'in what way and to what extend does
I=
>ndian mythology influence Indian economics and politics?' =

What the unlettered man thinks in a remote village is of no real concern
to the intellectuals in New Delhi. India's South Block and RAW can be as
cynical and calculating as USA's Pentagon and CIA. It is first and
foremost, contemporary politics, domestic and international. Old
mythology only comes in handy, for creating and manipulating public
opinion.

More than Rama and Arjuna who use external weapons, the mythology should
be one of Siva, with his third eye. One hopes he keeps the third eye
closed, but there can be no Siva without the potential to open the third
eye if necessary. The subcontinent's nuclear Siva has just winked.

Vidyasankar

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From roheko at MSN.COM  Tue Jun  2 12:45:36 1998
From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:45:36 +0200
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039531.23782.5873060715576688207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To a great part the stories of Sanchi and Bharhut
are already identified: they reflect certain
Jatakas and similar Buddhist tales. There you will
find the literal description of what you call
yoga-straps.
RoHeKo
roheko at msn.com
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Michael Rabe <mrabe at ARTIC.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
<INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Datum: Dienstag, 2. Juni 1998 11:07
Betreff: yoga-paTTa


>Friends,
>
>A fellow-instructor at The School of the Art
Institute of Chicago--someone
>who has been practicing ashtangi-yoga far longer
than Madonna, I might
>add--is currently researching the iconography of
yoga-straps in Indian art
>and contemporary meditational practice.  Though I
am able to direct him to
>numerous visual occurences instances of the motif
[from the North torana at
>Sanchi to the 16th c.Caurapanchashika mss.
illuminations] neither of us
>have been able to locate any textual references
to this accouterment.
>
>Here is Monier-Williams's citation:
yoga-paTTa[ka] (HarSa-carita, PadmaP):
>m. the cloth thrown over the back and knees of a
devotee during meditation.
>
>And the obvious query: if any one can direct us
to a chapter and verse in
>either cited work, or elsewhere, we'd be much
obliged.
>
>Much Thanks,
>Michael Rabe
>Assoc. Prof. of Art History
>Saint Xavier University
>&
>The School of the Art Institute of Chicago
>


begin 666 Rolf Heiner Koch.vcf
M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"DXZ2V]C:#M2;VQF.TAE:6YE<@T*1DXZ4F]L9B!(96EN
M97(@2V]C: T*3D]413I0<F%K<FET(&%N9"!386YS:W)I="!L:71E<F%T=7)E
M+"!C;VUM96YT87)I97,L('1A;&5S(&%N9"!F86)L97,L(&AA9VEO9W)A<&AI
M8R!L:71E<F%T=7)E+"!R96QA=&EO;G,@=&\@86)O<FEG:6YA;"!T<F%D:71I
M;VYS#0I414P[2$]-13M63TE#13HT-R\X.2\R-C W.#(P#0I414P[2$]-13M&
M05 at Z-#<O.#DO,C8P,C0R.#0-"D%$4CM(3TU%.CL[2W)E=7IS='(N(#(S.TUU
M;FEC:#L[.# S,S$[1V5R;6%N>0T*3$%"14P[2$]-13M%3D-/1$E.1SU154]4
M140M4%))3E1!0DQ%.DMR975Z<W1R+B R,STP1#TP04UU;FEC:" X,#,S,3TP
M1#TP04=E<FUA;GD-"D5-04E,.U!2148[24Y415).150Z<F]H96MO0&US;BYC
/;VT-"D5.1#I60T%21 T*
`
end




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  2 21:55:02 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:55:02 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039555.23782.10580456527971554894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> The subcontinent's nuclear Siva has just winked.
>

Indologists also study civilizations. Here is one more step. When the
USA atomic bomb was put together, the scientists (intellectuals?) went
out with an open appeal fearing nuclear annihilation of mankind
(civilization--sic) as they then knew it. This did not stop the
accumulation of third-eyes and sops offered such as CTBT and NNPT.

There is the larger issue of sharing world's wealth, governed by
principles such as 'comparative advantage'. We have seen how the
export of oil could be held as a tactic of blackmail. Japan supports
its nuclear power development (depending on nuclear energy for about
70% of its total energy supply, as does France) purely on grounds of
'energy security'. The message to the defense expert is clear: power
flows from the barrel of the gun and perceived power status flows for
e.g. from technology to break or fuse nucleii (perhaps something else
may crop up in the future, from the physics or biology research labs.)

Academics tend to ponder on these issues faced with the reality of two
cultures: the 'literate' and the 'folk'. I am sure e.g. an Indian in a
Bihar village worrying about his next day's meal does not understand
the geopolitic; perhaps, he has a vague feeling that the pral.aya is
fast nearing and maybe, a S'iva has to reincarnate to hold keep the
whole world tottering on the brink, unless of course, something
remarkable happens and all the n. weapons just wither away. He feels a
sense of power; afterall, all is not lost. Human frailty will just
muddle through. He may not even know that the Americans have a saying,
'there ain't no free lunch these days.'

Regards,
k.


==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  2 22:37:37 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 15:37:37 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039557.23782.15420439991056440861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I was hoping that we would not be getting into all this bomb thing, but
now that the action has been initiated, I suppose we should carry the
chain reaction forwards:-)

>".........But what amazed me was the almost total absence of any
>antinuclear protest, like we've seen in France. Such demonstrations can
count as kind of a slight rehabilitation. But they didn't happen in
mother Bharat.....">>

Er, you mean you didn't notice all those photographs by activists in
nava dEhalI nagara protesting about " No food, No clothes, No jobs, but
we have a bomb!"...you mean you didn't read about the attention given by
the NY Times given to the remarks of "Mr Palaniappan Chidambaram, a
Harvard educated lawyer"...hmmmmmm!!!!!

Please remember that the validity of Newton's third law: Reaction
equalling action...If the protests in France were louder, the government
reaction was also more brutal...One of the "Greenpeace" boats was simply
sunk by the French secret service in the 80s when they tried to protest
nuclear tests by the French...


<<Just like you won't find a lot of concern for environmental pollution,
gay rights, deforestation, animal welfare etc in most developing
nations.  All these issues seem to belong in societies who 'have got it
all' and can spare that extra time, effort and cash to be 'aware'. >>


 Boy, I'm begining to discover that India is reallllly an *unknown
country*:-)...you mean you've never heard of Sunder Lal Bahuguna and his
*ChipkO* movement to prevent deforestation in the Garhwal district of
UP( This, when he went on to win international awards and what have you)
or the activities of the poet-professor B.Raj Rao regarding gay
people... additionally, please remember that the reason why such a
hulla-baloo is made about gay rights in the West is because Christianity
prohibits sexual relations between men, Hinduism does not, AFAIK...why
,even staunch Hindus like the late K.M.Munshi have written about the
*affection and love* that existed between sudAma and kr*SNa when they
were students together...such a thing in Christianity would have earned
him the rebuke of the Pope, while a similar thing in ISlam would have
been met by a fatwa....

<< ".......Gandhi must be turning and tossing in his grave!>>

Hmmmmm, why this sudden importance to Gandhiji and his thoughts?.. The
same Gandhi wrote letters to different people protesting against the
setting up of Israel in Palestine and would have wept bucketfuls upon
hearing of napalm attacks in Vietnam...why this sudden resurgence in
Gandhivaada now?


<<It isn't difficult to use the Bhagavad Gita to rationalize anything.
>>

idam ka:/kA uvAca? Seems to me that there are lots of Barbara Crossette
fans lurking here...if this is true i.e. everything is justifiable using
the BhG, I wonder why Bal Gangadhar Tilak called
his interpretation of the gItA "The Gita Rahasya"...or are there so many
rahasyas hidden in the BhG that are known in Indological institutes but
are not known to ordinary Hindus?


Regards,
Krishna



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From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  2 22:50:55 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 15:50:55 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039560.23782.4985666329780248807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---"Sn. Subrahmanya" <sns at IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
[snip]> Since the world began in 4004BC(November?),
> the world should have ended after 6000 years i.e in 1995 or 1996 >
(depending on whethar you want to count the year zero in or not).
>
Give it to the computer guys and they will create a super Y2K problem;
I hear that DOW 10,000 may also be a problem soon.

How can indology stay immune from this tremor though the timing is too
close to our living memory? With or without the web? The land of the
upanis.ads has come of age.

Regards,
k.
==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  2 22:50:56 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 15:50:56 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039562.23782.13664044996513211238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Erik mahAzaya uvAca:

>>I think the problem is the angle. I think that no person with the
slightest amount of common sense is applauding the latest fireworks of
the party of Bombs Jabber and Poverty.>>

I would have to conclude that atleast 50% of the bhAratIya people are
bereft of sense then...There was a poll by REdiff( I think) that said
90% of the people supported what was what...


 <<Maybe many Indians see the atom bomb just as a new episode of one of
their great epics. >>

Seems to be a very western interpretation...as you know, it was Von
NEumann mahAzaya: who recalled zlOkas 11:13 and 11:32 from the BhG
after the explosion...

<<'in what way and to what extend does Indian mythology influence Indian
economics and politics?'>>

Please read "The arrow of the blue-skinned God" which alternates between
mythology and describing Indian politics in the 80s...In any case I
thought that economics and politics are influenced by the way the
problem is percieved, not on the basis of mythological arguments
...


Regards,
Krishna

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From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  2 22:56:32 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 15:56:32 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs and RV date problem
Message-ID: <161227039564.23782.7169223381527847123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---S Krishna <mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>In any case I > thought that economics and politics are influenced by
the way the > problem is percieved, >not on the basis of mythological
arguments.

So too indology. I find in this statement an elaboration of the
problem of method that Houben had talked about in an earlier posting
commending a study of, say, the topic of the date of the RV. The
'method' in subjective disciplines (such as indology) tends to start
with a 'model': in the case of the RV, the model tends to be either
IE-centric or I-centric with the latter moving the centre of gravity
towards the Gangetic belt. The unravelling of the 'truth' has to occur
by testing the model with 'data'.

k.

==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  3 00:09:19 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 17:09:19 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039569.23782.9557370832643535743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>S Krishna wrote:
>> as you know, it was Von
>> NEumann mahAzaya: who recalled zlOkas 11:13 and 11:32 from the BhG
>> after the explosion...
>
>I think it was thiru Oppenheimer avargaL:-).

Ama, it was Oppenheimer avargaLE:-)(Pardon my mixing up the two)...I
would like to thank  Both Rama and Bapa Rao for bringing this to my
notice....

Regards,
Krishna


>
>Rama
>


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From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  2 22:46:18 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 17:46:18 -0500
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039559.23782.6224256170515070849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 07:03 PM 6/2/98 +0200, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote:
>.................
>...I wonder if the popularity of the RAmAyana and Bhagavad GItA are
>causing this blindness. ...............
>.............. My suggestion would be therefore
>to look at the question: 'in what way and to what extend does Indian
>mythology influence Indian economics and politics?'
>
>
Hundreds of books have been written on this most important subject
...ask someone in the Vatican library to get you a list.

Sure....satanic mythology is the cause of all this "blindness"
and evil influence on Indian politicians and people.
On the day of judgement, these heathen will answer for their sins.

Since the world began in 4004BC(November?),
the world should have ended after 6000 years i.e in 1995 or 1996
(depending on whethar you want to count the year zero in or not).

God is probably running a little late -
maybe He is using the Indians to quickly fulfill what has been predicted.

Anyway, your spin was pretty convincing, some even fell for it. :)

Regards,
Subrahmanya




From umadevi at SFO.COM  Wed Jun  3 00:46:22 1998
From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 17:46:22 -0700
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227039573.23782.2360529317430439331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings Indologists:

Could anybody tell me if India experienced the Black Death ( 1347-1351)
which so devastated Europe?
 It seems the Black Death originated in China and travelled with the
Golden Horde and affected areas in the Middle East and North Africa as
well as Europe, but I have not found references to India.
I am not having any luck finding info in places where I assume it should
be, e.g. Ibn Battuta.
Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks!!

Mary Storm




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  3 01:15:24 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 18:15:24 -0700
Subject: The south Asian bombs and RV date problem
Message-ID: <161227039575.23782.838721117044032495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >
> Briefly, let me tell you what my method is:
>
> I read the Rgveda as much as I can. I study its grammar, its
poetics, its > world-view -- from as many points of view as possible.
I compare it to > traditions that are known to be related to it,
starting with Avestan, and > other Indo-European traditions. I read
scholarship that places the RV > within the Indic linguistic area.
When I sense similarities with more
> remote cultures, I study those similarities too. I make regular
effort to > THINK about the RV in as many ways as I can conceive. But
I try always to
> be faithful to the text.
>
> I do not consider my knowledge of the RV "subjective." I consider it
the > product of many years of study of that text. As for the
Indo-Aryan > migration/emigration controversies, my method is very
simple, and very > limited in its scope:
>
> If a given position does not agree with what I know of the RV I
reject it. > If it agrees, I entertain it.
>

We can debate this.

At the outset, I agree fully with the method as outlined by George
Thompson. The problem is so immense that this has to be a collective
effort of all indologists.

The validating process is superb and should be the basis for
entertaining 'external' evidence.

Perhaps, one of the greatest 'collective' achievements of indology in
the last hundred or so years, is the 'decipherment' of the Rigveda.
The interpretation has been possible mainly because of the use of
lexemes from the lingustic area to 'read' what Michael Witzel calls
the tape-recordings.

Have we not move a long distance from Sa_yan.a who broke the ground
away from the 'oral' tradition?

What I meant by 'subjectivity' was this use of 'data' external to the
texts. The other element of 'subjectivity' relates to extrapolating
the RV evidence back and forth in time, either towards Iran or Avesta
or towards the 'traditions' noticed in the linguistic area in
historical periods.

Another aspect of 'external' evidence is archaeology which brings its
own baggage of methods.

Language is not mathematics, words have no embedded dates and
archaeological finds seem to get a life of their own with the
carbon-14 dating.

Regards,
k.

==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun  2 13:46:41 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 18:46:41 +0500
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039533.23782.16508463060350413916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 04:11 AM 6/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Friends,
>
>A fellow-instructor at The School of the Art Institute of Chicago--someone
>who has been practicing ashtangi-yoga far longer than Madonna, I might
>add--is currently researching the iconography of yoga-straps in Indian art
>and contemporary meditational practice.  Though I am able to direct him to
>numerous visual occurences instances of the motif [from the North torana at
>Sanchi to the 16th c.Caurapanchashika mss. illuminations] neither of us
>have been able to locate any textual references to this accouterment.
>
>Here is Monier-Williams's citation: yoga-paTTa[ka] (HarSa-carita, PadmaP):
>m. the cloth thrown over the back and knees of a devotee during meditation.
>
>And the obvious query: if any one can direct us to a chapter and verse in
>either cited work, or elsewhere, we'd be much obliged.
>
>Much Thanks,
>Michael Rabe
>Assoc. Prof. of Art History
>Saint Xavier University
>&
>The School of the Art Institute of Chicago
>
>

If you can get hold of a calender depicting Lord Ayyappa you
can easily know what it is.

regards,

sarma.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun  2 16:51:34 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 18:51:34 +0200
Subject: "Crux of Chronology"
Message-ID: <161227039544.23782.2733799875992663936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 09:35 02.06.98 -0400, you wrote:
>Could the publications details of "Crux of Chronology" be posted?  I don't
>find it in LC's database even on order, or on OCLC.
>

Lars Martin Fosse

The Crux of Chronology in Sanskrit Literature. Statistics and Indology. A
Study of Method. Scandinavian University Press/Universitetsforlaget, Oslo 1997.

Individual orders can be ordered from:

NORbillett
P.O. Box 600, 2601 Lillehammer, Norway
Phone: +47 61 28 79 00
Fax: +47 61 28 79 80

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun  2 17:03:12 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 19:03:12 +0200
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039546.23782.8853524477661286745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I think the problem is the angle. I think that no person with the slightest
amount of common sense is applauding the latest fireworks of the party of
Bombs Jabber and Poverty. But India is not alone. Other countries like
France made the same mistake fairly recently. But what amazed me was the
almost total absence of any antinuclear protest, like we've seen in France.
Such demonstrations can count as kind of a slight rehabilitation. But they
didn't happen in mother Bharat. Gandhi must be turning and tossing in his
grave! I wonder if the popularity of the RAmAyana and Bhagavad GItA are
causing this blindness. The real battle of power is going on in the field of
economy and India (and Pakistan of course) are going down here. The battle
on the nuclear field is over, since most politicians understand that nobody
can win a nuclear war and the possession of nuclear weapens is very
expensive and full of risks.
>Rama and Arjuna are no executives, but fighters who use mythical nuclearish
weaponry to defie the bad guys. Maybe many Indians see the atom bomb just as
a new episode of one of their great epics. My suggestion would be therefore
to look at the question: 'in what way and to what extend does Indian
mythology influence Indian economics and politics?'

This is an interesting question indeed. Personally, I believe that the
persons behind the Indian / Pakistani nuclear politics are modern
politicians making calculations in the way such calculations are made all
over the world. And strange as it may seem, both parties (India and
Pakistan) have rational reasons for acting the way they do. At least
rational seen from certain angles, and in a Machiavellan sense.

But what about the general public? A friend of mine once said that
Pakistanis thought the nuclear bomb was some kind of glorified handgrenade.
In other words, they had no idea what it really was. Are Indians in general
aware of what a nuke really is? And do their epics and mythology influence
their attitudes when they feel happy for being a nuclear power? Or is it the
same attitude you would find in the old Soviet Union, or in the US, the love
of power and prestige (which is simply human and not related to religion at
all?)

I would say this angle is Indological - even Sanskritic!

Let's have a go at it.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun  2 23:55:09 1998
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 19:55:09 -0400
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039566.23782.9699746506691605675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:

> >A fellow-instructor at The School of the Art Institute of Chicago--someone
> >who has been practicing ashtangi-yoga far longer than Madonna, I might
> >add--is currently researching the iconography of yoga-straps in Indian art
> >and contemporary meditational practice.  Though I am able to direct him to
> >numerous visual occurences instances of the motif [from the North torana at
> >Sanchi to the 16th c.Caurapanchashika mss. illuminations] neither of us
> >have been able to locate any textual references to this accouterment.
> >
> >Here is Monier-Williams's citation: yoga-paTTa[ka] (HarSa-carita, PadmaP):
> >m. the cloth thrown over the back and knees of a devotee during meditation.

> If you can get hold of a calender depicting Lord Ayyappa you
> can easily know what it is.

I missed the original question, there are also sculptures of Narasimha
and Dakshinamurti with the yogapaTTa, though rare. There is a brief
discussion of the Elements of Hindu Iconography, by T. A. Gopinatha Rao
Vol II, Part I about dakshinamurti with yogapaTTa (page 284-286). I
believe Vol I, part I has all the relevant Sanskrit sources. You may
want to look at all 4 volumes
to see if he has one about Narasimha also.

Rama.




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Wed Jun  3 00:01:15 1998
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 20:01:15 -0400
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039567.23782.16640718216892179693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S Krishna wrote:
> as you know, it was Von
> NEumann mahAzaya: who recalled zlOkas 11:13 and 11:32 from the BhG
> after the explosion...

I think it was thiru Oppenheimer avargaL:-).

Rama




From a9607945 at UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT  Tue Jun  2 18:22:26 1998
From: a9607945 at UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT (nathalie Pernstich)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 20:22:26 +0200
Subject: The south Asian bombs
Message-ID: <161227039548.23782.5756150738502870867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

".........But what amazed me was the almost total absence of any
antinuclear protest, like we've seen in France. Such demonstrations can
count as kind of a slight rehabilitation. But they didn't happen in mother
Bharat....."

Just like you won't find a lot of concern for environmental pollution, gay
rights, deforestation, animal welfare etc in most developing nations.  All
these issues seem to belong in societies who 'have got it all' and can
spare that extra time, effort and cash to be 'aware'.  That's the thing
with money, you think of nothing else when you don't have it and of other
things when you do (that was Baldwin, I think).
As for the rehabilitating effects of demonstrations...I do find protest
important, but
a question like 'to buy or not to buy French wine' on an individual basis
is more of a conscience-calming one rather than real political activism.
Decisions are made on the level of government (mostly by elected govts.),
and rehabilitation has to
come from that level.  The protest against 'bombs' and 'tests' by other
governments generally appear slight, unconvincing or hypocritical.

 ".......Gandhi must be turning and tossing in his grave! I wonder if the
popularity of the RAmAyana and Bhagavad GItA are causing this
blindness......Rama and Arjuna are no executives, but fighters who use
mythical nuclearish weaponry to defie the bad guys. Maybe many Indians see
the atom bomb just as a new episode of one of their great epics. My
suggestion would be therefore to look at the question: 'in what way and to
what extend does Indian mythology influence Indian economics and
politics?'"

It isn't difficult to use the Bhagavad Gita to
rationalize anything.   A text like the BhG lends itself to that, and it
has been decontextualised often enough.  However, it does seem a little far
fetched to explain India's nuclear ambition in one historical period with
the same text that was once used to explain (and motivate) the satyagraha
movement.  Maybe that's a point in case for what you're suggesting, but it
looks more like politics shapes the myth and its interpretation, and not
the other way around.
The motivations that influence modern politics are much more mundane (even
when power is in the hands of 'religion'), and there's not much point in
shifting responsibilities into the realm of mythology.  I'd stick to the
criticism of politics and its makers, not to the criticism of myths.


Regards,  NP




regards  erik


 *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



~~~~~~~~~*
  Erik Hoogcarspel           <    jehms at globalxs.nl     ><
Boerhaaveln 99b     >
                             <    tl+31.(0)104157097    ><       3112 LE
Schiedam    >
                             <    fx+31.(0)842113137    ><       Holland
         >
 *==========================================================================



=========*
----------




From thompson at JLC.NET  Wed Jun  3 00:41:57 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 20:41:57 -0400
Subject: The south Asian bombs and RV date problem
Message-ID: <161227039571.23782.4969484673209900237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to these remarks of S. Kalyanaraman:
>
>So too indology. I find in this statement an elaboration of the
>problem of method that Houben had talked about in an earlier posting
>commending a study of, say, the topic of the date of the RV. The
>'method' in subjective disciplines (such as indology) tends to start
>with a 'model': in the case of the RV, the model tends to be either
>IE-centric or I-centric with the latter moving the centre of gravity
>towards the Gangetic belt. The unravelling of the 'truth' has to occur
>by testing the model with 'data'.
>
>k.
>
Briefly, let me tell you what my method is:

I read the Rgveda as much as I can. I study its grammar, its poetics, its
world-view -- from as many points of view as possible. I compare it to
traditions that are known to be related to it, starting with Avestan, and
other Indo-European traditions. I read scholarship that places the RV
within the Indic linguistic area. When I sense similarities with more
remote cultures, I study those similarities too. I make regular effort to
THINK about the RV in as many ways as I can conceive. But I try always to
be faithful to the text.

I do not consider my knowledge of the RV "subjective." I consider it the
product of many years of study of that text. As for the Indo-Aryan
migration/emigration controversies, my method is very simple, and very
limited in its scope:

If a given position does not agree with what I know of the RV I reject it.
If it agrees, I entertain it.

I try to keep my mouth shut when I know that I don't know a given topic.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Tue Jun  2 20:38:16 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 21:38:16 +0100
Subject: diphthongs
Message-ID: <161227039550.23782.4474066602963518553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings:

Apologies for repeating this query. I'm rewording
a bit just in case it works better this time.
(No luck last time)

There was some (entirely incidental) talk some
time ago from (at least two) people who knew
the phonetic realization of e/ai/o/au in
(or at some stage of) Vedic. Hence my question:
what is generally accepted as certain/probable
in that respect? (E.g. when -- i.e. in relative
chronology, relative to the texts that is -- did
the first component of ai/au become short? when
did e/o become phonetically pure vowels?)

I'm more interested in how you can know such
things [*] (the methodological aspect of the
question, to use a word which has recently made
a comeback) than in what the precise answers
are.

[*] in this specific case; I'm somewhat aware of
    how people have tried to go about arguing such
    things in other contexts.




From swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun  2 17:08:14 1998
From: swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 22:38:14 +0530
Subject: Kannada vacanas
Message-ID: <161227039616.23782.18110900422876808442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr Krishna,

The original Kannada text of the Vacana which you wanted to know is as follows:

"haavaaDiganuu muukoratiyuu
tanna magana maduvege shakunava nooDalu hoohaaga
idirallobba haavaaDiga muukoratiya kaNDu
shakuna hollemba cadurana noDaa
        tanna sati muukorati, tanna kaiyalli haavu,
        taanuu muukoreya.
        tanna bhinnavanariyade anyaranemba
        kunniyaneenembe kuuDala-sangama-deevaa?"

A revised translation by me:

A snake-charmer with his noseless wife
- A snake in his hand -
Went to find the horoscope for
        The marriage of their son,

        He saw coming from the opposite direction
Another snake-charmer with his wife - also noseless.
"Bad Omen, Bad Omen" he cried
And went running home!

Look at the foolish fellow !
        His own wife is noseless
        In his own hand, a snake,
        Himeself had a cut nose !

O Lord KuuDala Sangama,
        What shall I say of the cur
        Who, heedless of his own defects,
        Points to the faults of others ?

Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sri Taralabalu Jagadguru Brihanmath   * Taralabalu Kendra
Sirigere - 577 541, Karnataka, India     * 3rd Main Road, 2nd Block
Email: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in     * RT Nagar, Bangalore - 560 032
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----------
From:   S Krishna[SMTP:mahadevasiva at hotmail.com]
Sent:   Monday, June 01, 1998 12:42 AM
To:     swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN
Subject:        Re: Kannada vacanas



Dr Shivamurthy,

   I am very grateful for your help and information with the thread
about basavEzvara....Can you please send me the kannaDa original for the
following verse by basavEzvara:

  "A snake charmer, snake in hand and his noseless wife
  went searching for omens in connection with their son's wedding
  In the opposite direction, they saw another snake charmer
snake in hand, and his noseless wife walk towards them..
 "Evil Omen!" "Evil Omen!" They shrieked and went running home
  The man had a snake in his hand, his own wofe had no nose,
  What can you say to a fool who looks at everybody's face
  except his own! O Lord of the meeting rivers!"

 I'm sorry that I can't give you the vacana number; I read it in
a trnalstion by Prof A.K.Ramanujan...

 Looking forward to your reply

Regards,
Krishna




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  3 03:40:09 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 23:40:09 -0400
Subject: diphthongs
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b19a0c949624@[194.134.29.11]>
Message-ID: <161227039577.23782.4786817583355081970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Since I dropped the hint some time ago, but did not get around to detail,
I add a few words here:

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote:

> There was some (entirely incidental) talk some
> time ago from (at least two) people who knew
> the phonetic realization of e/ai/o/au in
> (or at some stage of) Vedic. Hence my question:
> what is generally accepted as certain/probable
> in that respect? (E.g. when -- i.e. in relative
> chronology, relative to the texts that is -- did
> the first component of ai/au become short? when
> did e/o become phonetically pure vowels?)


I am not sure there is a way to show all of this, but there are, as
always, incidental obervations which can be expanded to more general
statements, open to proof / or disproof.

 long e < ai

probably the best case scenario.

We know from IA_Mitanni that eka was pronounced aika. We know the same
from innumerable correspodences in Avestan (Av daEuua [daeva] : Ved. deva)
But our recitation (no correct tape ecording here, perhaps) has -e-

Metrics do not help, as ai and e are both counted as long syllables.

(abhinihita  e ', o' needs a long special discussion, involving Panini 8).
(Sandhi rules may also help, later!)

Yet, we have an incidental case:
words such as zreSTha are counted a having 3 syllables, in the Rgveda.
This does not mean that metrics suddenly works here, just for this -e- as
it does not in deva.
Rather, we know that zreSTHa  is from the root zrI, from *IIr zriH,
with laryngeal lengthening short i > I, long i.

Thus, we get:
         *zraiH-iSTha > zrai'iSTha (with hiatus? or glide, cf.
jna-p-ayati)          > zreSTha,
with e in manuscripts & recitation, but still counted as if 3 syllables!


At some moment in the *post*-Rgvedic period thus, after the "RSis" who
still made their verses using zreSTha having 3 syllables, the monophtong e
developed. (nothing special about that, again in Pali, etc...)

As for the exact date,I cannot now think of a way to determine it.
Somewhere in the Pratisakhyas or in Grammar maybe, if the morae of a
syllable are mentioned, `a la Panini :  short-long-pluti (extra long ) u
in his rule about vowel length.

As I said, his rules about Abhinihita or Sandhi can / may help, but that
gets too long. Maybe another message. If here is interest. Note that
interest is rather specific, atomistic and/or selective. No answers on the
VERY interesting Q. about the development of Benares/Kashi so far...

What do the ZiSTa-s think?


> I'm more interested in how you can know such
> things [*] (the methodological aspect of the
> question, to use a word which has recently made
> a comeback) than in what the precise answers
> are.

In this case, obviously, a mixture of Vedic philology, metrical
information and historiacl linguistics, also general Indian (Skt.)
grammar.


PS: the old, Whitneyan, and partly still current, American method to write
all ai, au  with macron seems inappropriate for the post_RV period when ai
> e ...  (and au > o; by that time aai > ai and aau > au, I guess)



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From umadevi at SFO.COM  Wed Jun  3 15:00:32 1998
From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 08:00:32 -0700
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227039595.23782.3032187838239662229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

jayabarathi wrote:
>

>                         This happened in 1345 A.D.
>                         The Black Death in a way altered the course of
>                 the history of Tamil Nadu. Saving it from Tughlaq's
>                 punitive invasion; secondly saving it from the
>                 cruellest tyrant who was committing calculated genocide
>                 of the Tamils; weakening the Madurai Sultanate,
>                 to be conquered by Kampana of Vijayanagar at a later date.
>
>                 Vide:
>
>                 1.History of Pandya Country by S.A.Q.Hussaini
>
>                 2.Foreign Notices of South India by K.A.Nilakanta Sastri
>
>                 Regards
>
>                 Jayabarathi

Greetings

I am most grateful for your detailed help, typing all that out was
beyond the call of duty! I was (obviously!) not digging deeply enough,
or in the right areas of Ibn Battuta!! Thank you also for your further
references.
It would seem that the Black Death must have had enormous impact on the
social structures of India, as it did in other parts of the world. So
much has been written about its ravages upon European society, I am
surprised so little notice has been taken in Indian history.

Best Regards,
Mary




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  3 15:21:23 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 08:21:23 -0700
Subject: Method: RV date
Message-ID: <161227039602.23782.10629063817750004026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
I would appreciate comments on the following cullings to focus further
on the 'subjectivity' in linguistic method(s):

na_val a shout of joy made while heaping grain on the threshing-floor;
a shout of victory in the form of na_valo_-na_val (Tamil)

navate_ shouts, bellows (RV.); na_va shout of joy or triumph (RV.
viii.25.11; ix.4.5.5)

na_valar poets, orators, the learned; na_va_l. Sarasvati_; navil
(navilv-, navin-r--) to say, tell, learn, utter, sound loudly, sing;
na_, na_vu tongue  (Tamil)

nivacana invocation (RV.) jn~a_ know (Skt.); jata_na_ to make known (H.)

Regards,
k.

==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From rdsaran at UMICH.EDU  Wed Jun  3 12:53:58 1998
From: rdsaran at UMICH.EDU (Richard D. Saran)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 08:53:58 -0400
Subject: Black Death
In-Reply-To: <35749C9C.5A2D@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <161227039582.23782.10728864588606040453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajasthani chronicles compiled in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries
mention that much of western Rajasthan was depopulated between about 1330
and 1450.  They don't say why, but the Black Death might be one reason.
Another would be the Muslim policy of removing whole populations to areas
under their direct control.

Richard D. Saran
South Asia Division
Graduate Library
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
USA
(313) 936-2346
rdsaran at umich.edu


On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Mary Storm wrote:

> Greetings Indologists:
>
> Could anybody tell me if India experienced the Black Death ( 1347-1351)
> which so devastated Europe?
>  It seems the Black Death originated in China and travelled with the
> Golden Horde and affected areas in the Middle East and North Africa as
> well as Europe, but I have not found references to India.
> I am not having any luck finding info in places where I assume it should
> be, e.g. Ibn Battuta.
> Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks!!
>
> Mary Storm
>




From umadevi at SFO.COM  Wed Jun  3 16:09:50 1998
From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 09:09:50 -0700
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227039606.23782.8864913759035764775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone recommend a good medical history of India, focusing not on
modern issues, but more ca. A.D. 500-1500 ?
Lots of Thanks!!
Mary Storm




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  3 16:40:04 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 09:40:04 -0700
Subject: ..bombs / RV date problem
Message-ID: <161227039608.23782.17793953242722384510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
[snip]> That is our job and > the way science proceeds, by dialogue &
dialectic progress.  Something not
> always understood.  For ex., when we had a long-term visitor from
India > some 15 years ago, he *accused* me that I had *changed* my
mind about a > problem, to which I replied: and I am proud of it...
>
I am proud too that there are indologists who have the courage and
integrity to keep on open mind and re-visit the earlier hypotheses,
based on new 'data'. The progress we make in reaching the 'truth' will
be a lot faster if this method is used to restate the hypotheses in an
iterative exercise... There is, of course, the other problem of
'fairness'; this is perhaps related to a researcher's repertoire.
George Thompson has said it beautifully; if a discipline is alien, it
is better to keep silent. Something not always practised at times by
some.

k.
==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  3 14:17:33 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 10:17:33 -0400
Subject: email address needed
In-Reply-To: <357553DC.7E5E@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <161227039586.23782.3306498430008840717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Harry Falk wrote:

> I cannot find the address of
> Prof. Toshifumi Goto

it is :

 Goto Toshifumi <GOTOP at sal.tohoku.ac.jp>



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  3 14:21:45 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 10:21:45 -0400
Subject: ..bombs / RV date problem
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b19a42a75e2d@[199.201.159.146]>
Message-ID: <161227039588.23782.11890149098642040703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, George Thompson wrote:

L.Fosse:
> >'method' in subjective disciplines (such as indology) tends to start
> >with a 'model':

subjective? and models?  We may start out with models, but only to
demolish them when better evidence presents itself. That is our job and
the way science proceeds, by dialogue & dialectic progress.  Something not
always understood.  For ex., when we had a long-term visitor from India
some 15 years ago, he *accused* me that I had *changed* my mind about a
problem, to which I replied: and I am proud of it...

But back to method:

> I read the Rgveda as much as I can....
> .... be faithful to the text.
> I do not consider my knowledge of the RV "subjective."

I agree completely. However, a tinge of subjectivity is in anybody's
research & writing:  after all, we all are formed & influenced by our
individual backgrounds: local upbringing & local socialization, one's
teachers (eventually, one has to 'divorce' oneself from them...), the
knowledge of fields we have studied/acquired later on, -- as opposed to
the virtually *universal* knowledge required, from astronomy to zoology,
required to understand any text *alien to one's own time & culture*.

But, in a field like the Rgveda or the Vedas in general, we are blessed
with so many dictionaries, indexes, grammatical studies and all sorts of
comparable tools that we can TEST our theories in quasi- natural science
manner. Usually, we can see whether a proposed solution/theory fits *all
occurences* of the word/problem in question. If not, we have to
investigate the few cases where it does not, and see whether there are
special conditions that may explain the aberration. If that cannot be
done, abandon your pet idea. If you can, explain and publish!

The 3rd possibility is that a word/problem has to little evidence
available for testing. If a word/certain problem occurs only 1 time or a
just few times in the RV, forget it! In most of such cases we cannot reach
testable level. Then, we could make a proposal and *say* that it is a
suggestion or, maybe, even a probability. But don't build grand theories
on one word/sentence/sugestion that is not testable....

In other field of Indology, say in Tantra or early New Indo-Aryan texts,
where we miss good editions, grammars, indexes such standards are much
more difficult to attain. A lot of footwork needs to be done yet.
Subjectivity due to limited access to *all* texts/occurences of a problem
limits realibility here.

> As for the Indo-Aryan migration/emigration controversies, my method is
very simple, and very limited in its scope:

> If a given position does not agree with what I know of the RV I reject it.
> If it agrees, I entertain it.

i.e. keep it in mind (often for years!) and test it against further
evidence that becomes avaible (new RV explanations, new archaeological
finds, new methods for testing: such as C14 once was, or now genetic
studies, etc.)

> I try to keep my mouth shut when I know that I don't know a given topic.

I could not agree more. ---  Even on Indology.


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  3 18:33:33 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 11:33:33 -0700
Subject: nigama
Message-ID: <161227039611.23782.17194598462161211419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
Would appreciate further leads on the lexeme:

nigama the Veda or Vedic text; any passage or word quoted from the
Vedas, a Vedic sentence; a root (as the source of a word) (Skt.) This
lexeme is also used in Tamil to mean 'conclusion'.

In Tamil, nin-ai = to know, understand.

Would it be necessary to postulate the root ga_ to further unravel
nigama: as in nigantavya to be learnt (a_pastam.bha)?

Regards,
k.


==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
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From lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK  Wed Jun  3 11:28:43 1998
From: lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK (Simon John Haines)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 12:28:43 +0100
Subject: Black Death
In-Reply-To: <35749C9C.5A2D@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <161227039580.23782.3349960454970017170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi

Is it not the case, that some now believe the Black Death originated in
Northern India - and not China?
I'll try and find the reference and get back with it.

Simon

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Mary Storm wrote:

> Greetings Indologists:
>
> Could anybody tell me if India experienced the Black Death ( 1347-1351)
> which so devastated Europe?
>  It seems the Black Death originated in China and travelled with the
> Golden Horde and affected areas in the Middle East and North Africa as
> well as Europe, but I have not found references to India.
> I am not having any luck finding info in places where I assume it should
> be, e.g. Ibn Battuta.
> Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks!!
>
> Mary Storm
>




From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Wed Jun  3 13:47:08 1998
From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 15:47:08 +0200
Subject: email address needed
Message-ID: <161227039584.23782.7989804580695309673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I cannot find the address of
Prof. Toshifumi Goto
in the indology-review list. Does he have email? Could someone
please provide it? Or is a Japanese collegue in a position to
convey a message to him?
thanks in advance
H. Falk




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jun  3 14:34:24 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 16:34:24 +0200
Subject: ..bombs / RV date problem
Message-ID: <161227039591.23782.332695894647870461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

M. Witzel wrote:

At 10:21 03.06.98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, George Thompson wrote:
>
>L.Fosse:
>> >'method' in subjective disciplines (such as indology) tends to start
>> >with a 'model':

Ahemm... I don't think I said this (at least my outmail sais I didn't).
But correct me if I'm wrong.

>subjective? and models?  We may start out with models, but only to
>demolish them when better evidence presents itself. That is our job and
>the way science proceeds, by dialogue & dialectic progress.  Something not
>always understood.  For ex., when we had a long-term visitor from India
>some 15 years ago, he *accused* me that I had *changed* my mind about a
>problem, to which I replied: and I am proud of it...

But then, models aren't such a bad thing if we don't confuse reality with
the model we use to interpret it. We use models in everyday life when
handling the trivia of existence, and usually with excellent results.


Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jun  3 16:17:01 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 17:17:01 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV,              I (was: Indo-Aryan im-/e-migration discussion and beyond . . . )
Message-ID: <161227039599.23782.2492425723009623929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

So we come back to 'method'.

And I turn to Michael Witzel's reaction to my suggestion on "how to proceed the
discussion and to make it more fruitful"

(1 Jun 1998,  Michael Witzel on Indo-Aryan im-/e-migration discussion and
beyond)

I wrote:
>> The two periods of urbanization are now
>> archeologically well established,  ...
>> Aryans must have been around in the north of the Indian subcontinent.

Michael Witzel wrote:
> Your statement about internal chronology (RV ---> YV  and no rice --->
> rice)  are indeed staple food for Vedicists.

Yes, but now we proceed to apply the "indexing" as suggested in my post:
"Each statement . . . should probably be indexed according to the evidence and
estimates on which it is based."

Such indexing
- will reduce the risk of accidental mixing up of personal guesses in which one
strongly beliefs with statements which can really be backed up with solid
evidence;
- attracts attention of colleagues to weaker points where improvements are
still to be made;
- allows for more fruitful cooperation between archeologists, linguists, and
specialists in other disciplines
- will be more fair to a general public which may tend to take any statement by
a scholar as a result of scientific research, and hence to accept either all or
none of them;
- can stimulate a shift from personal judgements to the arguments in support of
them, hence something of the individualism regretted by L.M. Fosse can perhaps
be avoided (although lonely hours with the texts will remain necessary).

Let us make a start:
The two periods of urbanization are archeologically well established. What is
the methodological status of this statement? How strong are the data and
arguments in support of it? Ideally, we should distinguish several parameters:
(1) numerical strength of pieces of evidence (f.i. many sites show increasing
urbanization in certain period);
(2) individual qualitative strength of pieces of evidence (e.g. how clear are
the remains of houses, city plans, etc);
(3) mutual indepence of pieces of evidence (the more independent the better).
(4) strength of the additional arguments needed to arrive at final conclusion
(can we be sure that finding an increasing number of house-remains points to
increasing urbanization? perhaps the people changed from tent cities to cities
with houses, etc.)
For the sake of convenience we take the average of these parameters on a scale
of, say, 0-100. (100 only for well-documented recent events, such as, sorry for
the example, the nuclear explosions in India and Pakistan; but actually, were
there really five in Pakistan?)

The Gangetic urbanization from 6th century BCE onward can than be rated at,
say, 80: it is quite certain that there was such a thing.
The Sarasvati-Indus urbanization 3000-2000 BCE can be rated with as much
certainty at 80.

More in my next posting.

JH.




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jun  3 16:18:54 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 17:18:54 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, II
Message-ID: <161227039597.23782.16383003795699789179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Now to the date of the Rgveda.

For a Rgveda written at 500 BCE we get double negative evidence: the certainty
that writing was not employed at that time to transmit sacred scriptures is
sufficiently strong and diverse (cf. Falk's study - perhaps allowing for pre-
Asokan writing on pottery etc., Allchin), and the certainty that it was not
employed to transmit Brahminical texts is even stronger in the light of taboos
on writing; the evidence that the Rgveda was at that moment already in
existence (socially well-established) for centuries is also quite strong, and
it is obtained from separate sources.
No writing of Vedic texts: 75;
Rgveda well-established at 500 BCE: 80.

The *melting point* of the Rgveda. The Rgveda as specific collection has
already dissolved at the time of the early brAhmanNas. But many hymns are
presupposed. How strong is the argument that it must be pre-PGW, hence before
1200 BCE, not after? I largely follow Witzel. Congruence PGW and Brahmanic
culture and its spread, presence/absence of rice/iron . . . evidence is subtle,
not massive, but there is some mutual independence . . . let us rate it at 70.

As for Rau's "belief" (Witzel ca. 30 May) in a later beginning of the Rgvedic
period: as far as I can see this did not interfere with his methodologically
sound work on coordinating Vedic texts and archeological findings. In his Zur
vedischen Altertumskunde, 1983, he remarks that competent scholars generally
place the beginning of the Vedic time between 2000 and 700 BCE. And that he
sees small indications which "jede fuer sich genommen nahezu nichts bedeutet"
that the beginning was earlier than 1000 BCE. His suggestion to look for a
relatively more recent beginning is not unreasonable, e.g. in the light of the
fact that the tendency of a tradition to exaggerate its age is universal (cf.
C.Bell, Ritual theory, ritual practice, 1992, chapter 6.)
As for bronze/iron as indicator: In poetry and ritual older ideas and practices
may continue when they have become outdated in daily life. Only very few hymns
speak of metals, and they do so quite incidentally. Numerous 'modern' hymns not
referring to metals could have slipped into an existing collection. Since Rau
did not offer a definite hypothesis, I cannot assign a value to the
methodological strength of it.

Comments sollicited, more to follow,

JH




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jun  3 16:47:10 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 17:47:10 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039604.23782.11944954478656390128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

We ended with a probable *melting point* of the Rgveda in a  pre-PGW period,
hence before 1200 BCE.

But now it becomes more difficult to make definite statements.

We cannot check the stability of the Rgvedic hymns before the brAhmaNas. There
is more *room* for entropy, and the hymns themselves value originality. But
when did this entail a living creativity resulting in actual entropy? How
stable and for how long can a nucleus (rather: one nucleus for each 'family')
of established hymns have continued without refined supporting system of
brAhmaNas and later on the pada-pATha, etc.? Perhaps there were social factors
which maintained the stability of a great number of the Rgvedic hymns? It is
also well known that myths and ritual structures can remain stable for a
considerable period of time, some elements going back straight to the Stone
Age. But then, going back in time in India, we encounter the remarkable
urbanization period of Sarasv-Indus. Some Vedic fire-techniques like carrying
around a pot with fire (useful in a Stone Age when making fire is difficult and
uncertain) are preserved in Vedic ritual, but they were outdated already in
Sarasv-Indus period where fire was well controled and domesticated. Churning
fire is Rgvedic (RV 1.141.1, with apologies to the Madhvas who see in the hymn
a prophecy of Madhva's birth). The rice-mess in the ritual establishment of
fire (agnyAdheya), however, must be post Rgvedic (at least as far as the
specific substance rice is concerned).

Now to the date of 1900 BCE as the post quem of the Rgveda: the Rgveda points
to certain political relations; once the collections are divided into family
books, we have independent references to a battle against an alliance of ten
kings, etc. (details in Witzel, Vedic canon and its political milieu). Evidence
is there, once we place the Rgveda in a period before 1200 BCE, but the
evidence is relatively one-sided. We have to assume the Sarasv.Indus-civ. to be
incompatible with the indications in the Rgveda, etc. Texts seem to allow
several scenarios. General methodological strength of support: 30-40?
Next, as pointed out: composing Rgvedic hymns presupposes not only the
actuallity of certain events like a battle with ten kings, but also a pre-
established culture, ritual, myths and poetical techniques: How much
continuitiy was there in the latter?

And what was the methodological strength of Max Mueller's guestimate that the
Rgveda was pre-1000 BCE?
No archeological parallels were sought or known to him. In a previous posting I
wrote that the date of the Buddha was his most firm starting point. In his
Physical Religion, 1891, he has a firmer starting point: the contemproary of
Alexander the Great, Candragupta. From there he goes to Asoka and estimates the
rise of Buddhism at ca. 500 B.C. Argues that Vedic texts must be earlier. Next
step is weaker, more guesswork: 200 years for sUtra-period, 200 for Brahmana,
and arrives at 1000 B.C. as date when collection of hymns has taken place (but
now we know: oldest brAhmanas do not know our saMhitAs). For the whole argument
we can speak of a "shrewd guess" only with hindsight. Average methodological
strength: 30.

Alternative datings: Rgveda at 4500 BCE (Jacobi, calculated on basis of
astronomic hints in Rgveda). Most problematic in his argument is his acceptance
of Rgveda as single unit: the marriage-of-sUryA myth may have been an older
myth expressed in a Rgvedic hymn. Other weaknesses pointed out by Oldenberg.
Yet Jacobi's argument was not entirely worthless for some Rgvedic mythic
elements, and if there were no other arguments against an old date much more of
the Rgveda could be old.
Average strength, for entire RV: 10;
for some mythical Vedic elements: 30.

Tilak's Arctic Home? Tilak adopted a method -- a defensible method in his time -
- and followed it, even when it led him to unexpected results. Very good. But
there are similar weaknesses as in the case of astronomical datings:
Average strength, for entire RV: 10;
for some mythical Vedic elements: 30.

Rgveda at 8000 BCE:
I am insufficiently familiar with the relevant arguments to be able to judge
them.
One assumption is that Sarasv./Indus and RV-civilisation were not incompatible,
either because RV-poets did speak of 1000-pillared mansions, or because they
later on largely neglected co-existing urban cultures so might have done it
earlier as well. A more positive argument in support of it would have been
astronomical (Kak), in style similar to Jacobi's argument (please correct me if
I am wrong).
Hence:
Average methodological strength of arguments in support of 8000 BCE,
for entire RV: 10;
for some mythical Vedic elements: 30.

Greetings, JH




From barathi at PC.JARING.MY  Wed Jun  3 14:46:31 1998
From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 22:46:31 +0800
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227039593.23782.11844323360587530996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 05:46 PM 6/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings Indologists:
>
>Could anybody tell me if India experienced the Black Death ( 1347-1351)
>which so devastated Europe?
> It seems the Black Death originated in China and travelled with the
>Golden Horde and affected areas in the Middle East and North Africa as
>well as Europe, but I have not found references to India.
>I am not having any luck finding info in places where I assume it should
>be, e.g. Ibn Battuta.
>Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks!!
>
>Mary Storm
>

                Greetings Ms.Mary Storm,

                        Yes. There is reference to the Black Death
                in India. And it is recorded by Ibn Batuta himself.
                        Madurai, the capital of the Pandya Empire
                was ransacked by Malik Kafur, Kusrau Khan, and finally
                was captured by Mohamed bin Tughlaq in 1323 A.D.. He made
                it into the 23rd province of his Delhi Sultanate. He sent
                Jallaluddin Hassan Shah as its governor. Ibn Batuta had
                married one of the daughters of this Hassan Shah.
                        But Hassan Shah declared himself independant
                and created the Sultanate of Maabar(Madurai) in the
                year 1333 A.D. Muhammad bin Tughlaq himself led an
                army and marched towards Madurai to punish Jallaluddin
                in 1341 A.D. But when he was proceeding from Devagiri,
                the erstwhile kingdom of the Yadavas, to Warangal, the
                capital of the earstwhile kingdom of the Kakatiyas,...
               " a pestilence broke out in his camp and carried away some
                of his officers. The Sultan himself was subject to an
                attack of the dangerous disease. Rumours were set afloat
                to the effect that the Sultan was dead. He left Malik Maqbul
                at Warangal and himself returned to Dawlatabad(Devagiri) and
                thence to Dihli never to regain Ma'bar.
                        After a few years in Delhi, Ibn Batuta took leave
                of Muhammad bin Tughlaq and travelled to Calicut, the
                Maldives and went to Ceylon. From a place called Patlam,
                 he took a ship to go to the Madurai Sultanate. When he
                was eight miles off-shore, the ship wrecked and was
                abandoned. Ibn batuta was saved by some pagan natives(Hindus).
                        On reaching the land he reported his arrival to the
                de facto ruler of the country. This was Sultan Ghiasuddin
                Damghani Shah. He had married another of Jallaluddin
                Hassan Shah's daughters and hence was a co-brother of
                Ibn batuta. Ghiasuddin was a monster and was performing
                genocide in the Tamil country. He was the Sultan who
                treacherously played out the Hoysala emperor Ballala III,
                and finally skinned him and had it stuffed with sraw,
                and hung it from the walls of the Fortress of Madurai,
                where Ibn Batuta saw it hanging.
                        Ibn Batuta stayed with Ghiasuddin for some time,
                and then went to a place called Fatan(Kilzakkarai).
                After sometime he went to see the Sultan in Madurai.

                His description:
                        "On my arrival at Madurai, I found a contagious
                disease prevailing there: people died of it in a short
                time. Those who were attacked by it, succumbed on the
                second or third day; if death was delayed, it was only
                until the fourth day. When I went out, I saw only the
                sick or the dead. I bought a young slave girl here,
                being assured that she was healthy; but she died the
                next day.
                        Once a woman whose husband had been the Vazir of
                Sultan Hasan Shah came to me with her son, aged eight years,
                a nice lad full of intelligence and spirit. She omplained
                of poverty, and I gave some money to her and her son.
                Both of them were strong and healthy; but the next day the
                mother  returned, asking for a shroud for her son, as he
                had died suddenly. I saw in the audience hall of the Sultan
                at the time of his death, hundreds of women servants, who
                had been brought to pound rice for preparing for food
                for other persons than the souvereign; these women, taking
                ill, were thrown on the ground, exposed to the sun's heat.
                        When Ghiasuddin entered Madurai, he found that
                his mother, his wife and his son had fallen ill. He remained
                three days in the city, and then he went out to a river
                at distance of one parasang, on the banks of which is
                a temple belonging to the infidels.
                        I went to meet him on a Thursday and he ordered
                me to be lodged with the Qazi. When the tents had been
                erected for me, I saw people hastening along pushing one
                another. One of them said: "The Sultan is dead"; another
                asserted that it was his son that had died. We ascertained
                the truth and found that the son was dead. The Sultan had
                no other son, and the death aggravated his own disease.
                The Thursday following, the mother of the Sultan died.
                        The third Thursday, Ghiasuddin died. I heard of
                it and hastened to return to town, for fear of a tumult.
                        This happened in 1345 A.D.
                        The Black Death in a way altered the course of
                the history of Tamil Nadu. Saving it from Tughlaq's
                punitive invasion; secondly saving it from the
                cruellest tyrant who was committing calculated genocide
                of the Tamils; weakening the Madurai Sultanate,
                to be conquered by Kampana of Vijayanagar at a later date.

                Vide:

                1.History of Pandya Country by S.A.Q.Hussaini

                2.Foreign Notices of South India by K.A.Nilakanta Sastri

                Regards

                Jayabarathi


















>




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Wed Jun  3 22:05:10 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 23:05:10 +0100
Subject: diphthongs
Message-ID: <161227039613.23782.736240785596255194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:

>Yet, we have an incidental case:
>words such as zreSTha are counted a having 3 syllables, in the Rgveda.
>This does not mean that metrics suddenly works here, just for this -e- as
>it does not in deva.
>Rather, we know that zreSTHa  is from the root zrI, from *IIr zriH,
>with laryngeal lengthening short i > I, long i.
>
>Thus, we get:
>         *zraiH-iSTha > zrai'iSTha (with hiatus? or glide, cf.
>jna-p-ayati)          > zreSTha,
>with e in manuscripts & recitation, but still counted as if 3 syllables!
>
>
>At some moment in the *post*-Rgvedic period thus, after the "RSis" who
>still made their verses using zreSTha having 3 syllables, the monophtong e
>developed. (nothing special about that, again in Pali, etc...)

I'm afraid I have been left behind here. Maybe it's only a matter of one
or two smaller steps so I'd be grateful if Michael or anyone else who's
understood what's going on could fill those in. Just to make sure that
there's no ambiguity let us agree to use asterisks on reconstr. in which
*ai/*aai/*au/*aau are used, nothing for transcriptions and [...] for
the phonetics. Thus e/ai/o/au are reflexes (resp.) of *ai/*aai/*au/*aau
and today are pronounced [e:]/[ai]/[o:]/[au].

So, we have in (the written recension/modern recitation of) some Vedic
texts zre3STha 'best', and zre3STha < *zrai'iSTHa < *zraiHiSTha on com-
parative grounds.

The question is: what was the pronunciation of what e3 stands for, at the
time those texts were composed?

If I understand what you're saying, the pluti-ness of the e must be a relic
in the modern recitation of an original [ai'i] pronunciation. But if that's
the case I'm lost. Why couldn't it be the relic of a [e:'i] pronunciation?




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Wed Jun  3 22:21:42 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 23:21:42 +0100
Subject: diphthongs (correction)
Message-ID: <161227039615.23782.6745982981007452650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just to correct something I wrote in my previous post.

>If I understand what you're saying, the pluti-ness of the e must be a relic
>in the modern recitation of an original [ai'i] pronunciation. But if that's
>the case I'm lost. Why couldn't it be the relic of a [e:'i] pronunciation?

Michael of course never said the e was pluti, but that zreSTha was metrically
worth 3 syllables.

So let me rephrase:

>If I understand what you're saying the fact that zreSTha has 3 syllables
>must be a relic of an original [zrai'iSTha] pronunciation. But why couldn't
>it be the relic of a [zre:'iSTha] pronunciation?




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Jun  4 12:13:43 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 08:13:43 -0400
Subject: diphthongs (correction)
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b19b7a5790ef@[194.134.29.33]>
Message-ID: <161227039624.23782.10141765131221798064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote:

> So let me rephrase:
>
> >If I understand what you're saying the fact that zreSTha has 3 syllables
> >must be a relic of an original [zrai'iSTha] pronunciation. But why couldn't
> >it be the relic of a [zre:'iSTha] pronunciation?

Yes, [zrai'iSTha] or, as Kuiper probably would have it even for the RV,
[zraiHiSTha]  (with surviving laryngeal)

As for point 2:  Vedic [zrai'iSTHa] < Indo-Iranian *[c'raiHis`'tha]
                 < IE *k'reiHist(h)o-

In all these (pre-)forms, not [zre:'iSTha], as comparatives and
superlatives work with full grade (guNa) in the root, not long vowel grade
(vRdhhi).

cf. guru ;  gar-Iyas ; gar-iSTha,
or without the problems of laryngeal in guru:
dhan-iSTha, pan-, van-, san-, han-, tap-,vep-, rabh-, zobh-iSTha etc.etc.



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun  4 13:42:03 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 09:42:03 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039628.23782.7332019929878301639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, I don't know how Jan Houben will score the following no doubt
*subjective* speculations, but perhaps I will find out:

A factor that has not been mentioned so far is the close connection,
linguistic and cultural, between the RV and Avestan, esp. old Avestan
texts, the GAthAs and the Yasna HaptaNhAiti. No, I'm not suggesting that
comparison with these texts will enable us to date the RV more accurately,
since they are just as difficult to date as the RV is.

But I would find it hard to accept any dating that would greatly separate
the RV from these texts, either in time or in space.

I'm sure that Michael Wiztel does not need to be reminded, but the list
might be interested to know that there is a kind of revisionism going on in
Avestan studies that makes the GAthAs to seem more ritualistic in focus,
which is to say more like the RV.

I'm not sure that his arguments are entirely persuasive, but Helmut Humbach
has recently attempted to defend a dating of the GAthAs to about 1000 BCE
[in his 1991 re-translation]. Kellens & Pirart [*Les textes
vieil-avestiques* 1988] date the GAthAs to roughly the same date, or only a
bit later [though I have not seen the later volumes where they apparently
defend their views]. I myself would 'guesstimate' that most of the hymns of
the RV were composed at roughly this time, or only slightly before.

Lately I've been entertaining the idea that the RV and the GAthAs are more
or less contemporary, and that there may be references in the RV not so
much to Zarathustra or Mazdayasnians, but rather to their immediate
ancestors. Kellens & Pirart also have argued in favor of de-historicizing
Zarathustra, thus making him to look more like a legendary Vedic RSi than a
historical prophet. If there is some legitimacy in this argument, then it
might not be too far-fetched to suggest that terms like a'deva, devani'd,
or deva'zatru, etc., might refer to Iranians, whom the Aryans of the RV.

In fact, these terms, and the related phraseology of the hymns in which
they occur, are echoed in Avestan phraseology, which leads one to conclude
that they belong to a unified conceptual universe, common Indo-Iranian.
This is not controversial. But there is also evidence for contact, and not
just common, inherited tradition.

For example: Michael Witzel has cited the Scythian Kanites, who are
referred to, as he points out, in the 8th book of the RV, 8.46.21 and 24.
This passage is a dAnastuti praising the generosity of pRthuzra'vas kAnIta'
[pRthuzravas, son of KanIta].

Stanza 21 opens with the assertion that no "godless man" [a'deva] can be
found who has received as much dakSiNA as vaza azvya has from pRthuzravas.
Now, if pRthuzravas is a Scythian, a son of KanIta, then it seems
reasonable to suppose that this Vedic RSi, vaza azvya, is using the term
a'deva to refer to less successful rivals who are godless:

These must be Iranians for whom devas [daEuuas] are demons, not to be
worshipped [adaEuuaiiasna].

Note, by the way, that among the gifts given by this Scythian patron one
finds, besides thousands of horses and cows, 120 camels, and a golden
chariot.

Quite a wealthy man he was, this Scythian.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun  4 13:47:39 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 09:47:39 -0400
Subject: Correction to: Re: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039630.23782.17700284899508827384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following paragraph of my last post left out a final word:

"Lately I've been entertaining the idea that the RV and the GAthAs are more
or less contemporary, and that there may be references in the RV not so
much to Zarathustra or Mazdayasnians, but rather to their immediate
ancestors. Kellens & Pirart also have argued in favor of de-historicizing
Zarathustra, thus making him to look more like a legendary Vedic RSi than a
historical prophet. If there is some legitimacy in this argument, then it
might not be too far-fetched to suggest that terms like a'deva, devani'd,
or deva'zatru, etc., might refer to Iranians, whom the Aryans of the RV."

The last clause should read: "whom the Aryans of the RV knew."

With apologies,

GT




From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU  Thu Jun  4 17:00:52 1998
From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 12:00:52 -0500
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
In-Reply-To: <199806041655.SAA17857@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227039636.23782.10895372475250447219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> methods and according to different criteria (compare, for instance, the
> numerous studies of the letters of St. Paul, and the studies of the
> Federalist papers, which are important for methodical reasons).

Lars:

What citations/titles/authors are you referring to here?  Is there
anything online?  Methodological models of what you're discussing is an
excellent idea.  Having waded into the complex issues you address quite
succinctly viz. stats. and indology in your dissertation, I am very
curious to see these works to which your expertise would refer us.

jrg




From swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jun  4 09:10:29 1998
From: swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 14:40:29 +0530
Subject: Kannada vacanas
Message-ID: <161227039618.23782.10278846549341646695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------
From:   S Krishna[SMTP:mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM]
Sent:   Monday, May 11, 1998 2:45 AM
To:     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject:        Re: Kannada vacanas

<<As regards etymology, since kUdala= saGgama,
why wasn't this place simply called "sangamEzvara"
or "kUDAlEzvara"...why the doubling of the "kUDala" in samskrt and
kannaDa? Or is that there were so many sangamas in that area that they
came up with this thumb-of-rule to distinguish between the various
dieties and places?>>

The deity is still known as "sangameshvara" and the temple as "sangameshvara temple".  Only the place is called "kuuDala-sangama".  BasavaNNa spent his early days here.  Because of his close association with this place, he selected the term "kuuDala-sangama-deevaa" as the ankita (signature) for his Vacanas.  But this ankita should not be mistaken as referring to the deity in Kudala Sangama.  Though BasavaNNa must have been a worshipper of this deity as an young boy, later he became highly critical of the institution of temple:

"uLLavaru shivaalayava maaDuvaru
naaneena maaDali baDavanayyaa
enna kaalee kambha, dehavee deegula
shira honna kaLashavayyaa
kuuDala-sangama-deeva keLayyaa
sthaavarakkaLivuNTu, jangamakkaLivilla"

My translation:

"The rich construct temples for Shiva
What shall I do? 
A poor man I am
My legs are the pillars, 
My body, the temple
My head, the golden pinnacle
O Lord, kuuDala Sangama
Things standing shall fall,
But the moving ever will remain !"

BasavaNNa was also highly critical of the mediation of priests between the God and devotees:

Indulging in love with one's wife
or eating one's food
Does anybody ever get it done by his deputy?
You yourself should offer prayers to God
Perform the rites and rituals to Linga
And not through the mediation of somebody else
O Lord kuuDala sangama,
How can they know You,
Doing it for mere formality

The term "kuuDala sangama deevaa" used by BasavaNNa refers to the "ishTa-linga" on his palm and not to  the "sthaavara-linga" of the 
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From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  4 21:42:05 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 14:42:05 -0700
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039641.23782.13690960455073144005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jan Houben says:

(Please scroll down for my comments!)

>And what was the methodological strength of Max Mueller's guestimate
that theRgveda was pre-1000 BCE?
>No archeological parallels were sought or known to him. In a previous
posting I wrote that the date of the Buddha was his most firm starting
point. In his Physical Religion, 1891, he has a firmer starting point:
the contemproary of Alexander the Great, Candragupta. From there he goes
to Asoka and estimates the rise of Buddhism at ca. 500 B.C. Argues that
Vedic texts must be earlier. Next step is weaker, more guesswork: 200
years for sUtra-period, 200 for Brahmana,and arrives at 1000 B.C. as
date when collection of hymns has taken place (but
now we know: oldest brAhmanas do not know our saMhitAs).>>


>Alternative datings: Rgveda at 4500 BCE (Jacobi, calculated on basis of
astronomic hints in Rgveda).

>Average strength, for entire RV: 10;
>for some mythical Vedic elements: 30.

Rgveda at 8000 BCE:
>I am insufficiently familiar with the relevant arguments to be able to
judge them.
 A more positive argument in support of it would have been
>astronomical (Kak), in style similar to Jacobi's argument (please
correct me if I am wrong).


Yes, you are correct..Kak does base it on astronomical arguments as
listed in his book "The astronomical code of the Rigveda"..the
difference seems to be in the way in which the calculations for the
positions of the astral constellations were made...

  However, Kak's assumptions seem to be a little peculiar..I am no
astronomer but my gut level feeling is that his techniques of
calculating astral movements  are strange..A parallel example of where
he uses hitherto used techniques and comes to a different conclusion
from the existing is in his use of computer concordances to conclude
that the IV script is related to Brahmi..Asko Parpola who did a similar
thing in the 70s concludes that the script is Dravidian..
I.Mahadevan, summarizing both pieces, criticizes the lack of rigidity in
the shapes of letters in Kak's work...

Regards,
Krishna

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jun  4 09:25:53 1998
From: swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 14:55:53 +0530
Subject: Kannada vacanas
Message-ID: <161227039621.23782.6581743516070898607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The original Kannada text has been already posted by Prof Pierre Filliozat.  However, I am posting it again with minor corrections.

"HaRida gooNiyalobba kaLaveya tumbida
IruLella naDedanaa sunkakkanji
kaLaveyellaa hoogi baRi gooNi uLiyittu
aLimanadavana bhakti intaayittu Raamanaatha"

<<As for an explanation, I suggest this: many vacanas of that period deal with relationships between the (at that time) new Virasaiva community and the orthodox around them. It appears that many new followers hesitated to openly admit their beliefs for fear of public opinion. Daasimayya's imagery may mean this: the grain is the man's faith, the sack is his conduct (not firm and in agreement with the faith he would like to profess), the toll gate represents orthodox society, which he fears to face, and when finally he is confronted by the orthodox (which may be relatives, friends, or just anybody) his faith has weakened so much (because he is too faint-hearted to live in agreement with it) that it is practically no longer existant.
Robert Zydenbos>>

The explanation given by Robert Zydenbos is, no doubt, interesting.  But the meaning of this Vacana is quite different as I understand it from my traditional background.  If you refer to the previous Vacana of Daasimayya, it becomes clear.  

"God makes his devotees beg and suffer
(For testing the purity of their heart)
Rubs them like gold
Grinds them like a sandal-wood
Crushes them like a sugar-cane
If they remain unperturbed and unalarmed
(And continue to have unflinching faith)
Our Ramanatha
Would lift them up by hand."

It is a common belief in the Hindu society that a true devotee is put to all hardships by God and is made to suffer in order to test the purity of his/her heart .  From the life stories of many realized souls, we understand that the path of devotion (bhakti-maarga) which they followed, was not an easy task.  They had to face a lot difficulties and were even encoutered with dangerous situations in life.  But they made no compromise and strictly adhered to the principles they believed in, at the risk of their life.  Lord Shiva, pleased by their unflinching faith, finally took them to the abode of Kailasa (Eternity).  

Coming to the Vacana, "haRida gooNiyalobba...".   The peasant was afraid of the tax-collector.  He wanted to somehow evade the payment of tax.  He thought that he would escape the eyes of the tax-collector if he drove his cart at night when the latter will be sleeping.  In a hurry, he put the grains in a gunny bag which was torn.  He, no doubt, managed to sneak through the toll-gate as he had calculated, without paying any tax.  But after reaching the market, he noticed that he had only empty gunny bags on the back of his cart, as the grains had all fallen out from the holes of the torn gunny bag all along the way.  

The analogy is like this: Peasant here represents a devotee, grain (the taxable goods) is Bhakti,  cart is the body, the torn gunny bag represents the mind with no firm faith, fear of the tax-collector means fear of the difficulties in life, paying tax means undergoing difficulties in life. If the peasant wants to carry his agricultural produce to the market, he has to pay the tax while crossing the toll gate. It is painful to part with money.  Everybody wants to save as much as one can. In the case of Bhakti (devotion), God wants to test his devotee whether he loves him more than the material comforts in the world.  It is only after ascertaining his true devotion, God grants him the state of Eternity.  He who cares more for material comforts than for true love of God and makes compromises with principles, will not be successful in attaining the Eternity.  For entering the toll-gate of the market, one should not be afraid of paying the tax.  Similarly, for entering the gate of Divinity, one should not be afraid of undergoing difficulties in life and lose faith in God.

Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sri Taralabalu Jagadguru Brihanmath   * Taralabalu Kendra
Sirigere - 577 541, Karnataka, India     * 3rd Main Road, 2nd Block
Email: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in     * RT Nagar, Bangalore - 560 032
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

----------
From:   S Krishna[SMTP:mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM]
Sent:   Sunday, May 10, 1998 2:10 AM
To:     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject:        Kannada vacanas

I read the translation of a Kannada vacana by dEvara dasimaiya that goes
as:(paraphrase mine)

A man with a gunny sack
which was tattered
walked all night long
fearing the toll gate

By the time he reached the gate,
all the grain had fallen thru the holes
and all that he had was a torn gunny bag

It is thus with the devotion of the
  faint-hearted, O Ramanatha!

My questions are:
1. Can anybody please post the original in Kannada and provide a
translation/explanation for  the connection between being faint hearted
and the analogy given in the first part of the vacana

Krishna
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From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI  Thu Jun  4 13:44:20 1998
From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 15:44:20 +0200
Subject: News from Finland
Message-ID: <161227039626.23782.9710976905534445215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All
Because of several reasons I have all this spring been reading the
messages about two weeks behind. This in fact seems to be an
excellent arrangement. I have spared much time as others have already
answered and commented the messages.
Our Institute for Asian and African Studies (until recently called
Department of Asian and African Studies) has moved. The new adress is:
PJ 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
Finland
Phone and fax numbers as well as e-mail adresses remain same as
before.
My book, India and the Hellenistic World, came out a few months ago as
number 83 of our series Studia Orientalia. It contains 10+459 pages
and the price is 200 Finnish Marks (about the same as French Francs).
It can be ordered from:
Bookstore Tiedekirja
Kirkkokatu 14
FIN-00170 Helsinki
Finland
tel +358-9-635177; fax +358-9-635017; e-mail tiedekirja at pp.kolumbus.fi
This is the place for ordering all the books published by learned
societies of Finland.

Best regards

Klaus Karttunen




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Thu Jun  4 15:31:48 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 16:31:48 +0100
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039632.23782.14740815131411146699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:

>I have a comment concerning the use of statistics in Indology. . . .

>1. . . .
        you work for two years analysing data
        you spend 30 sekonds running them through the computer
        you spend the next two years evaluating the results.

>Not a very economical method when Indological research is concerned,
considering the vastness of the literature.

Perhaps you are aware of the TITUS-project (thesaurus of indo-european
literatures): you type in a (Vedic/Sanskrit) text and get access to the texts
typed in by others. More info via: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de

Best wishes, JH




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun  4 16:55:39 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 18:55:39 +0200
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039634.23782.7689760543238335212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 16:31 04.06.98 +0100, you wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:
>
>>I have a comment concerning the use of statistics in Indology. . . .
>
>>1. . . .
>        you work for two years analysing data
>        you spend 30 sekonds running them through the computer
>        you spend the next two years evaluating the results.
>
>>Not a very economical method when Indological research is concerned,
>considering the vastness of the literature.
>
>Perhaps you are aware of the TITUS-project (thesaurus of indo-european
>literatures): you type in a (Vedic/Sanskrit) text and get access to the texts
>typed in by others. More info via: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de

Yes, I am aware of the Titus-project, which is an important step in the
right direction. But a task of a more difficult nature is the tagging and
preparation of texts for various kinds of computerized study, including
statistical studies. For this to be done efficiently, we need some kind of
standard, and to produce a large amount of prepared text that can be used
for such purposes. For one thing, we need more smaller studies that can help
us decide what it is worth while tagging in a text (both grammatical and
content-related information). A good method will only chrystallize after a
few years of experiment and discussion.

In the statistical field, we need more studies dealing with authorship
problems, preferably the same texts analysed with different statistical
methods and according to different criteria (compare, for instance, the
numerous studies of the letters of St. Paul, and the studies of the
Federalist papers, which are important for methodical reasons).

I think that a new path will open up when we have a large corpus of texts
tagged for content and grammar in combination with standardized statistical
techniques.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun  4 18:10:42 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 20:10:42 +0200
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039638.23782.4370556167068019908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>Lars:
>
>What citations/titles/authors are you referring to here?  Is there
>anything online?  Methodological models of what you're discussing is an
>excellent idea.  Having waded into the complex issues you address quite
>succinctly viz. stats. and indology in your dissertation, I am very
>curious to see these works to which your expertise would refer us.

Most of this should be in the bibliography of my thesis:

Frederick Mosteller/David L. Wallace 1963, "Inference in an authorship
probem", Journal of the American Statistical Association, 58:274ff.

F. Mosteller and David L. Wallace 1964: Inference and Disputed Authorship.
The Federalist. Reading, Mass., Addison-Wesley Publishing Company.

Tweedie/Singh/Holmes: 1994, Neural Network Applications in Stylometry: The
Federalist Papers. Proceedings of the 3rd Conference on the Cognitive
Science of Natural Language Processing. Dublin, Dublin City University.

Holmes, D. I. 1995. The Federalist Revisited: New Directions in Authorship
Attribution. Literary and Linguistic Computing, p. 111-127.

Ledger, Gerard 1995. An Exploration of Differences in the Pauline Epistles
using Multivariate Statistical Analysis. Literary and Linguistic Computing.
10,2.

Greenwood, H. H. 1992. St. Paul Revisited - a Computational Result. Literary
and Linguistic Computing, 7,1. p. 43-47.

Apart from these titles, I suggest you check out the bibliography of my thesis.

Best regards,

Lars Martin


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Jun  4 18:13:38 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 22:13:38 +0400
Subject: "original" Buddhists -- Brahuis?
Message-ID: <161227039639.23782.15808498027056922781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 2 June 1998 Jaap Pranger wrote:

<An illustration of two stone structures in Brahui country,
<called 'Cheda pillars' by the author, is to be found in
<Henry W. Bellew's "From the Indus to the Tigris",
<London 1874, on page 56.

<The illustrated structures, although much smaller, look very similar
<to stupas.  Bellew: "They are erected to the memory of
<clansmen who have died without issue........"

<Could these be distant memories to a buddhist past ?

<Any clues/ opinions as to these structures ?

        As for their general FORM, Brahui "Cheda pillars" look very much like
constructions called by Mongols and related peoples "oboo" or "obon" - and
spread across vast territories in South Siberia, Mongolia and Tibet (mayby
even wider in mountainous regions of Central Asia). In the same way as "chedas",
oboo are "neatly built of loose stones closely set in a cylindrical form"
(Bellew). Oboos are smaller in height than chedas, they may reach 8-9, but never,
as far as I now,  12 feet. They are erected usually on mountain passes (where
travellers use to make some small offerings to them) and "on slight eminence on
the plain" (Bellew on "chedas") - hence probably an occasional meaning of
a "tumulus", "burial mound" (in Buryat-Mongol and Kalmyck). But the original
semantics of oboo seems to be connected with the cult of mountain-spirits.
Their origin may probably be referred to the same Neolithic culture of
Central Asian mountaineers which left in Sayan-Altai-Pamir-Hindukush mountain
belt petroglyphs of a specific style (studied, in particular, by K.Jettmar).
       But as for their FUNCTION (and some details of form, too), the "chedas"
certainly resemble stuupas, or, to be exact, the hypothetical proto-stuupas
made of stones (cairn-like, as opposed to earthen memorial or burial
constructions, like Vedic zmazaana or proto-stuupas excavated in the
beginning of this century at Lauriya, Bihar).
        The Brahui "chedas" can be explained, perhaps, as a result of the
convergence of the two areal traditions: a Central Asian and a South Asian
one.
        Best wishes to all
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jun  5 02:31:51 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 22:31:51 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV, III
In-Reply-To: <01IXT40UIQRO94DYL8@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl>
Message-ID: <161227039643.23782.4676280700145729059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Jan E.M. Houben wrote:

> We cannot check the stability of the Rgvedic hymns before the brAhmaNas.

In a way, we can check on them. As is well known,the Atharvaveda,
Yajurveda and Samaveda contain very many stanzas from the Rgveda, but in a
much inferior tradition; they have been transmitted in a less faithful way
and 'corrupted' by 'perseveration' (H. Oldenberg, Prolegomena, 1888).

One can study such perseverations (als O. has done, but few after him for
100 years) and then proceed to debate why/how the RV version is better. It
almost always is. (Some discussion in my Canon&Society paper).

As a gereral rule, we can accept the RV as is. The few changes made before
or during the redaction by Sakalya have been well studied (e. g. Cuv > Cv,
and metrically :paavaka for pavaaka, etc. etc.)

Many of the following questions discussed in the Canon&Society paper:
> But when did this entail a living creativity resulting in actual
> entropy?
>... which maintained the stability of a great number of the Rgvedic
> hymns?

> Now to the date of 1900 BCE as the post quem of the Rgveda:
> Evidence is there, once we place the Rgveda in a
> period before 1200 BCE, but the evidence is relatively one-sided. We
> have to assume the Sarasv.Indus-civ. to be incompatible with the
> indications in the Rgveda, etc. Texts seem to allow several scenarios.

Percentages aside, always sveral scenarios, with differing probablilities.

But: "assume" that RV was incompatible with the Indus Civ?  It must be
shown that it *can* be compatible. RV simply does not refer to Harrappan
towns (pur is a wild west style or mud rampart fort)...There a no ocean
going ships of Indus traders i teh RV. All bad philology (or teh lack of
it, e.g. in the hundreds of *untranslated* "proof" passages in
S.P.Gupta,The Indus Civilization,Delhi 1996, pp. 164-174). Cf.J. Houben,
below, on 1000-pilared houses.

A scenario that one could entertain is the "Roman/Arab style" one:  early
Indo_Aryan mercenaries in the Indus cities (if there were mercenaries
then!). Or one can think of occasional "horse traders" in Indus cities,
Pathans, before their day...  But all of this is speculation: no evidence
in the texts, and of course not in Archaeologuy, so far.

I do not think one can imagine IAs in the country-side, side by side with
Indus farmers & cattle herders: something of this would have transpired in
a few RV hymns... A simile or two: "this is like... selling your lame
horses to...the muuradeva-s in town", or whatever.

> And what was the methodological strength of Max Mueller's guestimate that the
> Rgveda was pre-1000 BCE?

I think we do not have to discuss Max Mueller any longer, this is like
pre-Linnean biology or pre-Copernicus astronomy. Interesting only for a
history of Indology.

> Alternative datings: Rgveda at 4500 BCE (Jacobi, calculated on basis of
> astronomic hints in Rgveda).

Well,  there is the old (Jacobi, now Kak's) discussion of the naksatra
passage in Satapatha Br. Needs a long, separate discussion. If SB would be
placed in 2300 or 2900 BC, then the RV should be older. But the SB "date"
can be dislodged easily. Any takers?

> One assumption is that Sarasv./Indus and RV-civilisation were not
> incompatible, either because RV-poets did speak of 1000-pillared
> mansions, or because they later on largely neglected co-existing urban
> cultures ...

See above...


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu

phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  5 14:05:32 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 07:05:32 -0700
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039651.23782.8296829399549939379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Jan E.M. Houben wrote:

> Now to the date of 1900 BCE as the post quem of the Rgveda: > >
Evidence is there, once we place the Rgveda in a > > period before
1200 BCE, but the evidence is relatively one-sided. We > > have to
assume the Sarasv.Indus-civ. to be incompatible with the
> > indications in the Rgveda, etc. Texts seem to allow several
scenarios.

---Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

> Percentages aside, always sveral scenarios, with differing
probablilities.
>
> But: "assume" that RV was incompatible with the Indus Civ?  It must
be > shown that it *can* be compatible. RV simply does not refer to
Harrappan > towns (pur is a wild west style or mud rampart
fort)...There a no ocean
> going ships of Indus traders i teh RV. All bad philology (or teh
lack of > it, e.g. in the hundreds of *untranslated* "proof" passages
in > S.P.Gupta,The Indus Civilization,Delhi 1996, pp. 164-174). Cf.J.
Houben, > below, on 1000-pilared houses.
>
[snip]
> I do not think one can imagine IAs in the country-side, side by side
with > Indus farmers & cattle herders: something of this would have
transpired in > a few RV hymns... A simile or two: "this is like...
selling your lame > horses to...the muuradeva-s in town", or whatever.
>

Scenarios and percentages... Should RV be expected to contain
EVERYTHING as Subrahmanya had observed in another context?

George Thompson had observed earlier that, RV's 'internal'
philological evidence can be used as a touchstone for 'external' data.

Maybe, some rigour in methods should be discussed here, before
'fitting' RV texts and poesy with the 'external' evidence from other
disciplines such as archaeology, historical metallurgy or earth
sciences.

Take for example, the problem of 'locus' and the two sarasvati_s
scenario. Which sarasvati is referred to, in what context and what
time sequence (of, say, movement, if any, between haraqaiti and
dr.s.advati_-apaya_- sarasvati_) can be inferred from the texts?

Regards,
k.
==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun  5 07:06:36 1998
From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 08:06:36 +0100
Subject: brahma sutra
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.96.970929074819.16803A-100000@jason.MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA>
Message-ID: <161227039646.23782.16659096098404212247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members,
   If someone has access to PK Sundaram's Word Index to the Brahma Sutras
and wouldn't mind looking up for me where and how many times the word
"anirvacaniya" appears in the BS, I would be most grateful.
   Thanks in advance,
   John Grimes
   MSU




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jun  5 13:17:30 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 09:17:30 -0400
Subject: Brahuis?../ Dravidian homeland
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980605104359.0082fab0@ms19.hinet.net>
Message-ID: <161227039648.23782.9006834772801951722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Miroslav Rozehnal wrote:

> That would mean linking Brahuis (Dravidians) to the Central Asian cultures.
> That's another interesting point that has been never much discussed here
> (at least I can not remember) - the origin of Dravidians. I remember
> reading somewhere (alas, I do not know where) the hypothesis of original
> Dravidian homeland in Central Asia. Do venerable shi.s.tas have any opinion
> on this?

Many answers:


* (McAlpin wanted to connect Dravidian with Elamite (in, Mesopotamia, now
SW Iran).


        McAlpin,D., Towards Proto-Elamo-Dravidian, Language 50, 1974, 89-101

        McAlpin, D. W. Proto-Elamian-Dravidian: the evidence and its
        implication.
        Transactions of the American  Philosophical  Society, 71, Philadelphia
        1981

Dravidologists have not agreed with his recostructions. See
B.K.Krishnamurti, recently in this list. F.B.J. Kuiper always told me the
same.

* F. Southworth wants to see an old IA-Dravidian meetings, still in Iran.
Term such as tanuu, discussed here last year. Both stress a
pre-agricultural Proto-Dravidian society, mainly cattle-herders (with
horse? Brahui hulli, Tamil ivuLi?)

        F. Southworth, , Lexical evidence for early contacts between Indo-Aryan
        and Dravidian. In: M. Deshpande and P.E.  Hook. (eds.). Aryan and
        Non-Aryan in India. Ann Arbor  1979, 191-233
        ---,  The reconstruction of Prehistoric South Asian language
        contact, in E. H. Bendix (ed.), The Uses of Linguistics. New York
        1990, p.207-234
        ---, Reconstructing social context  from language: Indo-Aryan and
        Dravidian prehistory. In: The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia, ed. G.
        Erdosy (ed.).  Berlin/New York  1995, 258-277

* Some linguists have seen a connection with Uralic (Finno-Ugrian) for
decades.

        MENGES, K.H.  Altajisch und Dravidisch, Orbis 13, 1964, 66-103

        Tyler, Stephen, Dravidian and Uralian: the lexical evidence.
        Language 44,1968, 798-812.

        Marlow, E.J.P. More on Uralo-Dravidian relationships... A comparison of
        Uralic and Dravidian etymological vocabularies  [PhD diss. ] Austin 1974

* Finally, there are, of course, the Nostratic linguists who have,
beginning with the Russian scholars, the late V.M. Illich-Svitych, and his
colleagues Dolgopolski, and Shevoroshkin, reconstructed a super-family
that includes Dravidian, Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic),
Uralic,  Altaic and some of the Caucasus (Kartvelian) languages.

        V.M. Illich-Svitych, Opyt sravneniya nostraticheskikh yazykov.
        Vvedeniye. Sravnitel'nyi slovar. Moskva 1971-76

        V. Shevoroshkin (ed.)  Explorations in language macrofamilies :
        materials from the first Iinternational Interdisciplinary Symposium on
        Language and Prehistory, Ann Arbor, 8-12 November, 1988. Bochum : N.
        Brockmeyer, 1989

        ---, Typology, relationship and time : a collection of papers on
        language change and relationship / by Soviet Linguists. Edited and
        translated with a critical foreword by Vitalij V. Shevoroshkin and
        T.L. Markey. Ann Arbor: Karoma Publishers, 1986.

        Bomhard, Allan R. Toward Proto-Nostratic : a new approach to the
        comparison of  Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Afroasiatic. Amsterdam ;
        Philadelphia : J. Benjamins, 1984.


That would solve all "Aryan problems" in India, isn't it: aarya and
Dravidans had been brothers all along, way back in Central Asia...

Many traditional IE scholars combat the Nostratic theory, a concept that
is not difficult to understand but hard to follow since you have to know
and handle everything from Old Irish to Finnish, Berber, Old Egyptian,
Akkadian, Georgian, Old Tamil, Vedic, Old Turkish and Old Japanese. Few
people that  I know can do that...

Of course, no need to mentional the crackpot comparisons which link
Dravidian directly to anything from W. African to  Japanese, or make Tulu
"the mother of English"....

Just one case:

        Lahovary, N. Dravidian origins and the West; newly discovered
        ties with the ancient culture and languages, including Basque, of the
        pre-Indo-European Mediterranean world.  Bombay: Orient Longmans 1963

* Some archaeologists, probably starting with S. P Tolstov, have connected
Central Asian cultural assemblages with the Dravidians.

        Tolstov, S.P. in: 13th annual report of the Institut eof Archaeology of
        the London University, London 1959, 8-26   (= Kelteminar culture of
        N.Uzbekistan) (or his book on Ancient Khorezm, 1948++)

        cf. now F. T. Hiebert,  South Asia from a Central Asian
        perspective,  In:
        The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia, ed. G. Erdosy (ed.).  Berlin/New
        York  1995, 192-212


Hope this makes for a beginning....



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From mirek at MS19.HINET.NET  Fri Jun  5 02:43:59 1998
From: mirek at MS19.HINET.NET (Miroslav Rozehnal)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 10:43:59 +0800
Subject: "original" Buddhists -- Brahuis?
In-Reply-To: <AAIFkTr0o2@YV1041.spb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227039644.23782.259855976053845165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:13 PM 1998/6/4 +0400, you wrote:>
>        As for their general FORM, Brahui "Cheda pillars" look very much like
>constructions called by Mongols and related peoples "oboo" or "obon" - and
>spread across vast territories in South Siberia, Mongolia and Tibet (mayby
>even wider in mountainous regions of Central Asia). In the same way as
"chedas",
>oboo are "neatly built of loose stones closely set in a cylindrical form"
>(Bellew). Oboos are smaller in height than chedas, they may reach 8-9, but
never,
>as far as I now,  12 feet. They are erected usually on mountain passes (where
>travellers use to make some small offerings to them) and "on slight
eminence on
>the plain" (Bellew on "chedas") - hence probably an occasional meaning of
>a "tumulus", "burial mound" (in Buryat-Mongol and Kalmyck). But the original
>semantics of oboo seems to be connected with the cult of mountain-spirits.
>Their origin may probably be referred to the same Neolithic culture of
>Central Asian mountaineers which left in Sayan-Altai-Pamir-Hindukush mountain
>belt petroglyphs of a specific style (studied, in particular, by K.Jettmar).
>       But as for their FUNCTION (and some details of form, too), the
"chedas"
>certainly resemble stuupas, or, to be exact, the hypothetical proto-stuupas
>made of stones (cairn-like, as opposed to earthen memorial or burial
>constructions, like Vedic zmazaana or proto-stuupas excavated in the
>beginning of this century at Lauriya, Bihar).
>        The Brahui "chedas" can be explained, perhaps, as a result of the
>convergence of the two areal traditions: a Central Asian and a South Asian
>one.
>        Best wishes to all
>                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov
>

That would mean linking Brahuis (Dravidians) to the Central Asian cultures.
That's another interesting point that has been never much discussed here
(at least I can not remember) - the origin of Dravidians. I remember
reading somewhere (alas, I do not know where) the hypothesis of original
Dravidian homeland in Central Asia. Do venerable shi.s.tas have any opinion
on this?

Regards,

Miroslav Rozehnal
Center for Buddhist Studies
National Taiwan University
Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  5 19:24:45 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 12:24:45 -0700
Subject: Horses
Message-ID: <161227039653.23782.5464450583121508342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,

Revisiting the horses argument.

I do not know if the following lexemes have any relevance:

risa_lu, risa_le a troop of horses (Kannad.a); risa_la_
(Mara_t.hi_.Hindi_.)

tat.t.u a small breed of horses, a pony or tattoo (Kannad.a, Telugu,
Tamir.., Malaya_l.am); tat.o, tat.t.o id. (Mara_t.hi_.Hindi_.);
tat.ava_n.i a female of the tat.t.u breed (Kannad.a); tat.a_n.i_
(Mara_t.hi_.Hindi_.); tat.t.uva_n.i (Tamir...); tat.ava_n.i a
trickish, deceitful woman (Kannad.a)

Regards,
k.



==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
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From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  5 21:16:00 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 14:16:00 -0700
Subject: Peacocks
Message-ID: <161227039658.23782.4268654875582429141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---Vidhyanath Rao <vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU> wrote:
>
> Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote [Context: Chariots
arguments]: [snip]

>We cannot know perfectly. [...] However, this is nothing unusual. We
> >cannot, I think, reconstruct the IE small finger. That does not
mean > >that IEs had only 4 fingers... (and, I think, there is a
Proto-Drav. > >peacock feather, but .... no peacock)
[snip]

I am just picking up one side issue from this larger debate on
chariots and horses. It is about the peacock. I do not know if the
etyma are settled, IA, Drav., Austro-as.

ma_ra_ peacock (<Savara)(Morgenstierne; Przyluski)
maru_ka peacock (<Bloch); med.u, melu (Kui); mellu (Kuwi)(DEDR 4642).
See also n~amali, naviram (Tamil); namili (Telugu)(DEDR 2902).

But, see cmpds. in RV: mayu_ri_ peahen; mo_ra peacock (Pali); mho_ru
(Kon:kan.i); mo_rachal fan of peacock's feathers (Ka_s.mi_ri)[Bailey
links IA lexemes with: mura_sa (Khotanese) with orig. Indo-Iranian
color word].

The habitat is quitessential Sarasvati River zone and areas of
Kris.n.a lore.

Even today, we can find the pheasants, peahens and peacocks roaming
freely along the white lotus ponds along the Sarasvati nadi_ from
Thanes'war to Pehoa, uttering their musical shrieks, ji_va-ji_va.

A note on the pheasant species: For further zoological notes, and
other URL links, please visit:

http://home.att.net/~DanCowell/monal.html

Himalayan Monal Pheasant
(Lophophorus impeyanus)

Commonly called the Impeyan after Lady Impey who first kept them in
captivity, the Himalayan Monal is the most commonly seen species of
the genus Lophophorus. As the name suggests, this majestic pheasant is
native to the Himalayas, from eastern Afghanistan to western China.

The males are adorned with beautiful metallic colors of green, purple,
red and blue; they also have a large white patch on the rump. The
breast and underparts are black and the tail is copper. The males also
have a very long crest, much like a peacock.

Association of the peacock with Sarasvati in sculpture is another
story. For those interested in tourist spots, there is in Kuruks.etra
on the GT Road a Sarasvati udya_n popular with the students. RV hymn:
ambitame_ nadi_tame devitame Sarasvati_ is enshrined here.

Regards,
k.




==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Fri Jun  5 13:54:51 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 15:54:51 +0200
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039650.23782.9489553069518097418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,
        I'd need the exact content of naighaNTuka i,11 where a meaning
"speech" of saras is given to explain sarasvatI. Had someone this niruktam
at hand?
        Thanks in advance,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Fri Jun  5 20:18:18 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 16:18:18 -0400
Subject: chariots (was horse argument), 1/2
Message-ID: <161227039655.23782.14850828361277924108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have changed the order of the quotes as what I have put first, it
seems to me, is the major point. I think that it is futile to continue
this thread unless this is addressed. The rest is incidental to this
and I have made that into a separate post, to come later.

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

> But I confidently predict more early chariots in Russia.
                            ^^^^
To me the ``more'' implies that `early chariots' have been found in
Russia. But the vehicle whose trace was found in Shintasha could not
have been very maneuverable. I have not seen any counter argument to
this.

To say that simply putting horses under the yoke instead of oxen somehow
makes for fast maneuverable vehicle is as absurd as saying that putting
a souped up engine and mag wheels on a Ford Pinto would make it into
high grade sports car. The transmission, the suspension and the steering
assembly must match the engine. So also, to make a fast maneuverable
chariot, the harnessing and axle/wheel/body attachments must be made to
match the animals.

The basic facts and descriptions of experiments with reconstructions
can be found in the references I gave. If you disagree with them, the
thing to do is to conduct experiments with reconstructions based on
plans supposedly used in Central Asia or India and show that they are
fit for the purpose. Or, if such experiments have been done, give
references to where they have been published. Without that, any further
discussion would be pointless and charges of ``ivory tower'' attitude
counter-productive. [And I thought that practical tests were the
anti-thesis of ``ivory tower'' attitude.]

Furthermore, given the size of early domesticated horses and horse
anatomy, horses strapped to a neck yoke would not be much better than
hemiones strapped to a neck yoke. And the latter were in use in the
Ancient Near East in mid 3rd millennium BCE. It is the development of a
decent harness for horses that made chariots usable in war, if not also
for races. It is the history of harness that matters.

-------------------------
-Nath




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Fri Jun  5 20:18:56 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 16:18:56 -0400
Subject: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2
Message-ID: <161227039656.23782.13644057471153888463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 May 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote:
>
>> I thought that I had made it clear that I believe the true chariot to
>> have been diffused from the Near East, not India. This has nothing to
>> do with the spread of IE languages.

>But the very word for "horse", horse driving, horse mythology, horse
>rituals go *together* in IE cultures.... Diffusion from a post-common IE
>center does not work here.

Word for horse does not prove chariots.

I guess I am totally ignorant. What PIE words are unquestionably
connected to chariotry? [Let us concentrate on chariots in this
thread.]

>> Anyway, are you arguing that chariots had been invented before I-Irs
>> and proto-Greeks separated?

>We cannot know perfectly. [...] However, this is nothing unusual. We
>cannot, I think, reconstruct the IE small finger. That does not mean
>that IEs had only 4 fingers... (and, I think, there is a Proto-Drav.
>peacock feather, but .... no peacock)

The situations are different. We have independent evidence that humans
had a little finger before PIE evolved. But there is no evidence that
true chariots existed before 1800 BCE.

>But, unfortunately, we have Homer's "Indian style" description of the
>race. If you then invoke the Hittites as transmitters, we are stuck with
>Kikkuli, the *Indo-Aryan*-inspired Mitanni.

A minor point: Kikkuli was a Hurrian, as were the young men recruited
into the mariannu (and according to Diakonoff, that word has a
satifactory Near Eastern etymology.

Anyway, there are books on Nyaya in one of our libraries. Bulk of the
books on formal logic are in a different library. If a visitor from
Alpha Centauri were to look only at the first and concluded that Frege
et. al were inspired by Indians, would it be correct?

The point is that we have fragments of other texts on horses and
chariots from the Hittite archives. Chariots are mentioned in >military
context<, used by both Hittites and Hurrians, during the >Old Hittite
period<, almost 300 years before Kikkuli.

And what is the evidence for claiming that Mitannis' methods were
better? Bear in mind that the Hittite archives contained other texts on
horse training. Just because, by chance, one text has come complete
while others have not, we cannot conclude that the former is better.

>> >the uneven number of turns
>> >with the Mitanni, the COUNTER-clockwise turning .... : all by
>> >diffusion?

>> The odd number of turns is a consequence of the race, which consists of
>> returning to the starting point after reaching a preset mark. If you
>> run n laps, you must make 2n+1 turns.

I am sorry for yet another fence-post error. If there are n circuits,
there would be 2n-1 turns.

>The turn (vartana) is around the pole at the end of the track. [...]
>Yes, but there also is 1 turn only: Thus, 1 turn: up to the post and back;
>2 turns = 2x the same; 3 turns = 3x etc. Only the turn around the post at
>the "end" of the track is counted. But only *odd* numbers are used. Why?

I did not know that only the turn at the end was counted. I will
appreciate textual citations that prove this (for each culture
involved).

>> But bits were completely unknown in India, according to Arrian and
>> others. Why was it so, if there were two different traditions?

>Arrian? Where? In the quoted passage, he onlys says that they have a
>management different from the Greek + Celtic one. (Indike 16).

You are right. I should have said that bits were not in use in India
and that the statements of Arrian and others supports this. Also,
archaeological evidence supports the conclusions that bits were
introduced into India only in historical times. See Leshnik AJA 1971
pp. 141--150 as well as Sparreboom, Chariots in the Veda, p. 115-117.

So the question remains:If there was a continuity of domesticated horses
from bit using people to early historical India, why was there a change
from bits to nose bands when the latter are inferior due to constriction
of air passages?

--------------


>(if imported from the Near East you would use the Near Eastern
>term,like gilgul 'wheel': see below).

Not always. People use loan translations too.

>Unfortunately she is not an Indo-Europeanist but a well known Russian
>archaeologist, and, AT THAT, horse woman herself. Not an ivory tower
>woman. (Neither do I belong to that tower myself, nor Sparreboom who has
>driven chariots a lot, *before* and after his thesis).

What matters is experience with reconstructed harness + vehicles.
I have written to Sparreboom concerning this, among other questions
about chariot construction and use that come from what he says in his
book. It would be proper for me wait for his reply before discussing
them here.

Modern harnessing is far removed from ancient practices. Even minor
changes can make adjustment tricky. There were a lot of experienced
drivers who were tripped by rear mounted engines which affect the
handling characteristics. And few of them are able to explain the
physics behind it.

That is why, till I see description of experiments with reconstructed
harnesses, bridling and vehicles that contradict them, I will continue
to accept the conclusions of Spruytte. No such experiments are described
by Sparreboom or Kuzmina. So I see no reason to change my conclusions.

>Simply, because the Hittites *imported* a Mitanni man, Kikkuli, to teach
>them [better methods].

A minor point: Kikkuli was a Hurrian (and the maryannu were recruited
from among Hurrians).

Anyway, this text was found in an archive, where fragments of other
texts dealing with horses and chariots were found. All of us buy books
for our collections when we already know what is in those books. Finding
this one book does not imply that Hittites imported Kikkuli to >teach<
them.

>One does not import and employ people whom one does not need.

But one does buy books one does not really need. And as a glance
around any US university or software company will show, people
can be imported for reasons other than total lack of knolwedge/
inferior technology in the importing country.



-Nath




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Sat Jun  6 15:24:21 1998
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 11:24:21 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039660.23782.3328993800739294209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues

A preliminary draft of an ISO Committee Draft for Indic transliteration
(CD15919) is now at:

   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trdcd1a.htm

Your comments are welcome.

With apologies to those who receive more than one copy of this posting.
Tony Stone 

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
Indic scripts.   Email: stone_catendompuserve.com             Thinking
aloud on transliteration:
   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun  7 00:24:46 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 17:24:46 -0700
Subject: chariots (was horse argument), 1/2
Message-ID: <161227039662.23782.17113533870787149467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---Vidhyanath Rao <vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU> wrote:
>It is the history of harness that matters.

It may be of interest to discuss the technical terms which evolved in
relation to the domestication of the horse. For example:

wag rein, tether (Ka_s.mi_ri); va_ga rein, halter (Sindhi); valge a
bridle, a rein (Kannad.a) valga_ bridle (Sam.skr.tam) ba_g-d.ori
tether for horses (Biha_ri_)

kat.iva_l.am horse's bit, bridle (Tamil); kad.iya_n.a, kad.iva_n.a
bit, bridle (Kannad.a) cf. kad.d.iya_na_ to bite (Gondi) cf. ba_l.u
small knife attached to
cock's spur when fighting (Tulu)

pragraha bridle ; pragra_ha bridle, rein (Sam.skr.tam.) cf. pan:ga
state of being astride (Kannad.a)

It would appear that semant. valgati springs, leaps (Va_jasneyi
sam.hita_)X -va_l (in: karava_la sword) metallic bit, may explain the
choice of the folks of the times as they mounted the stallion.

Regards,
k.
==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

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From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  7 01:03:30 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 18:03:30 -0700
Subject: News from Finland
Message-ID: <161227039664.23782.6388352673059291832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From:         Klaus Karttunen <Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI> says:


>My book, India and the Hellenistic World, came out a few months ago as
number 83 of our series Studia Orientalia. It contains 10+459 pages
>and the price is 200 Finnish Marks (about the same as French Francs).
>>


Could you please tell us:  1. What was the Indian way of keeping track
of time( i.e. in terms of days, weeks etc) when Alexander came to
India? I've read that the modern European system of classifying
everything into weeks, months etc was a Greek concept borrowed by the
Indians when the Greeks came to India( never minded if the Greeks
themselves obtained the concept of the minute, second etc from the
Babylonians:-).

2. Is there any critique of the Arthasastra by the Greeks? If so, how
did they compare Chanakya with their own political thinkers?


Any reply would be appreciated

Regards,
Krishna


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Jun  7 02:49:32 1998
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 19:49:32 -0700
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039666.23782.8829846383593643561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>         I'd need the exact content of naighaNTuka i,11 where a meaning
> "speech" of saras is given to explain sarasvatI. Had someone this niruktam
> at hand?

Nirukta 2.23;
'The following fifty-seven (words) [in the NighaNTu] are synonyms of
speech. From what (root) is vAc (speech) derived? It is derived from (the
root) vac (to speak). With reference to these, the word SarasvatI is used
both in the sense of 'a river' and of 'a deity' in Vedic passages" (trans.
by Lakshman Sarup).

Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Sun Jun  7 14:47:00 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 15:47:00 +0100
Subject: Truth and method in Indology, III
Message-ID: <161227039668.23782.14912541154549694723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 31 May 1998, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> - the assumption that if somebody has not been
trained in the West, he/she is not worth being listened to.

I am happy and proud I could spend a considerable amount of my research time in
Pune. There I was not just engaged in collecting material, but I had many
refreshing and stimulating scholarly encounters. Pune University (with Dep of
Sanskrit and Prakrit, and CASS) is one of the places where I could advise
advanced (M.A./PhD) students in Sanskrit studies to spend some time.

Are there any other places with comparably high academic standards for Sanskrit
studies in India (other list members will perhaps be interested in the same
with regard to Tamil, Kannada, Hindi studies)?

Best wishes, JH




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Sun Jun  7 16:31:27 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 17:31:27 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039670.23782.17897388533317101617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, George Thompson wrote:

>Well, I don't know how Jan Houben will score the following no doubt
>*subjective* speculations, but perhaps I will find out:

O.K. then, just to illustrate what kind of 'scoring' I had in mind.

First, to avoid misunderstandings: it is not a percentage of certainty. It
should reflect the strength of the methodological support for a statement. 0
means: no support; 100: well-established through several independent, sound
methods (usually reserved for recent events only). [negative means: there is
evidence against it.]
Next, several parameters are distinguished:
I mentioned:
periods of urbanization are archeologically well established. What is the
methodological status of this statement? How strong are the data and arguments
in support of it? Ideally, we should distinguish several parameters:
(1) numerical strength of pieces of evidence;
(2) individual qualitative strength of pieces of evidence;
(3) mutual indepence of pieces of evidence;
(4) strength of the additional arguments needed to arrive at final conclusion.

Applied to what seems to be your central proposition:
"most of the hymns of the RV were composed at roughly this time [of the Gathas,
1000 B.C.] . . .  there is also evidence for contact, and not just common,
inherited tradition"
and basing myself on your own explanations of the steps in your argument I
arrive at:

1: numerical strength of pieces of evidence: very low, you mention the two only
references to the Kanites in the RV, 8.46.21 and 24, and the occurrence of
adeva in that context.
2: that adeva would indeed refer to Iranians: from your own words I infer this
is a possibility rather than a necessity.
3: mutual independence: approaches zero (verses 21 and 24 are hardly
independent).
4: your own comments suggest: no tight argument to lead from pieces of evidence
to conclusion.
Average score: ca. 10?

STILL, proposals like this, speculatively investigating new possibilities, MAY
be very valuable, and new evidence may suddenly change the picture
dramatically.

AFTER this exercise some remarks/questions on the contents of your speculative
guestimate.
You speak of the "Scythian Kanites": in fact there is reference to the specific
kAnIt'a pRthuzra'vas who makes donations to the poet. Isn't this person a nice
instance of Allchin's "acculturated Aryans"? His father or grandfather or
greatgrandfather may have been a Scythian, but the present person's name and
his act of giving shows him as fully acculturated in Aryan language and
culture.
How do the Iranians exactly enter into the picture: is your reasoning that if a
Scythian has come from so far away, the Iranians who live in between must also
be around? Or do you take the giving of camels / 'uSTra-s as indicative of
Iranians? It occurs only a few times in book eight, in book one there is a
comparison with an uSTra without context of giving. The question arises how
much can be deduced for the entire Rgveda. Hoffmann speaks in this context of
"Iranic or half-Iranic kings" but I would at the most accept the latter
exclusively and think of the above-mentioned "acculturated Aryans" (whose
camels may have been imported from east-Iran, as Hoffmann suggests).
Geldner, moreover, gives a different interpretation of 'adeva, although he
already adopted the meaning "camel" (like Hoffmann later on) for 'uSTra
(Grassmann had "Bueffel"). And: wouldn't there be sufficient other 'local'
candidates for people not adoring the Aryan deva's (depending on the scenario
accepted, these could include those of an earlier wave of Indo-Aryan
immigrants, Parpola's Dasa's)?
How do you deal with the divergent and separated geographies which are usually
attributed to the RV and the Avestan texts (see Gnoli for the latter)?

Moreover, you write:
>I've been entertaining the idea that the RV and the GAthAs are more
>or less contemporary, and that there may be references in the RV not so
>much to Zarathustra or Mazdayasnians, but rather to their immediate
>ancestors.
>Kellens & Pirart also have argued in favor of de-historicizing
>Zarathustra, thus making him to look more like a legendary Vedic RSi than a
>historical prophet. If there is some legitimacy in this argument, then it
>might not be too far-fetched to suggest that terms like a'deva, devani'd,
>or deva'zatru, etc., might refer to Iranians, whom the Aryans of the RV knew.

The way I have so far understood the "de-historicizing of Zarathustra" is that
the "I" of the Gathas is not Zarathustra, and that the latter had already
become largely legendary when the Gathas were composed (and that the
composition was largely according to set ritualistic patterns). If then the RV
refers to ancestors of Zarathustra, and the Gathas are written by later
descendencts and followers, their date must have differed notably (at least two
generations difference). But this seems not what you want to argue for . . .

Greetings, JH




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Sun Jun  7 17:53:01 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 18:53:01 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039672.23782.2593992355053325076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 Michael Witzel wrote

>On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Jan E.M. Houben wrote:

>> We cannot check the stability of the Rgvedic hymns before the brAhmaNas.

>In a way, we can check on them. As is well known,the Atharvaveda,
>Yajurveda and Samaveda contain very many stanzas from the Rgveda, but in a
>much inferior tradition; they have been transmitted in a less faithful way
>and 'corrupted' by 'perseveration' (H. Oldenberg, Prolegomena, 1888).

I guess my point was rather that once we have arrived at a point X in time for
which we have no attested check on the stability of the Rgvedic hymns (before
the composition of the brAhmaNas, and, if you want, before AV, YV and SV), we
do not know how long the hymns have remained stable until point X was attained.

Michael Witzel wrote:
>> And what was the methodological strength of Max Mueller's guestimate that the
>> Rgveda was pre-1000 BCE?

>I think we do not have to discuss Max Mueller any longer, this is like
>pre-Linnean biology or pre-Copernicus astronomy. Interesting only for a
>history of Indology.

The value of such a discussion would still be to show how far the
methodological quality of available evidence has now improved since his time.
If someone wants to propose an "alternative chronology" it will not do to try
to surpass Max Mueller's arguments. Michael Witzel's Development of Vedic canon
and Schools (if I have to mention a single compact publication) has certainly
set a new standard (drawing on much preceding philological and archeological
work). But here too there are qualitative differences between the support
available for different dates. For instance, ante quem for RV is relatively
stronger and more direct (with converging iron and rice-argument) than post
quem; still, in the absence of better alternatives I would accept the date and
search for additional evidence, all the while remaining open for attempts to
establish an alternative date (which may further strengthen the accepted date
when it flounders).

Greetings, JH




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun  7 17:23:01 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 19:23:01 +0200
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039674.23782.3185865940304798832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Michael Witzel's Development of Vedic canon
and Schools

Could I get the full bibliographic details for this book, please?

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  8 12:27:54 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 08:27:54 -0400
Subject: Inside the Texts...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980602092834.23920L-100000@login6.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227039685.23782.15479443273051153804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

in answering L.Fosse's question:

> INSIDE THE TEXTS, BEYOND THE TEXTS
> NEW APPROACHES  TO THE  STUDY OF  THE  VEDAS
....
>  pp. xix, 380

   price $32.


> The Opera Minora of the Harvard Oriental Series  are available from

> South Asia Books,
> P.O. Box 502, Columbia, MO 65205, USA
> email: sabooks at juno.com; phone: 573-474-0116; fax: 474-8124.



If you have problems in getting it please write to:
>
> Editor, Harvard Oriental Series, Department of
> Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University,  2 Divinity Avenue,
> Cambridge MA 02138, USA;
> ph. 617-496-2990, email: witzel at fas.harvard.edu

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  8 12:30:32 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 08:30:32 -0400
Subject: chariots (was horse argument), 1/2
In-Reply-To: <199806052018.QAA01384@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227039688.23782.3690936600032721105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote:

> seems to me, is the major point. I think that it is futile to continue
> this thread unless this is addressed. The rest is incidental to this

Yes, indeed. Let us agree to disagree, --- at least for the moment.

I will get into Mr Spruytte if I get the time before Summer School
Sanskrit starts on June 22. For the moment, I am busy with other,
(actually more interesting things -- and a deadline --- regarding the
Rgvedic period -- not the items discussed recently, though!)

> the vehicle whose trace was found in Shintasha could not
> have been very maneuverable. I have not seen any counter argument to
> this.

Sine I have not yet seen Spruytte,I cannot tell, -- but it seems to me
that on the basis of the Sintashta chariot we can say little: we only have
the lower parts of its spoked wheels in impression, the width of the
chariot and the length of its body/pole (fom the size of the impressions
left of the supporting posts when putting the thing into the grave.) No
wooden remains. But again - later.


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu

phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun  8 12:33:14 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 08:33:14 -0400
Subject: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2
In-Reply-To: <199806052018.QAA01452@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227039690.23782.2955979612858662870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote:

> I guess I am totally ignorant. What PIE words are unquestionably
> connected to chariotry? [Let us concentrate on chariots in this
> thread.]

I think I gave a few last time and detailed the difficulties with them.

> A minor point: Kikkuli was a Hurrian, as were the young men recruited
> into the mariannu (and according to Diakonoff, that word has a
> satifactory Near Eastern etymology.

Yes as I have been saying all along : the MItanni had been in PRIOR
contact with some (Proto-)Indo_aryans.

Maria-nnu is a separate problem, as -nnu is a common Mitanni (Hurrite)
suffix. cf. babhru 'brown' (horse) and Mitanni babru-nnu. That leaves
maria- and that can be connected with Avestan mairiia [marya] 'scoundrel'
and Vedic marya 'young man, young warrior', etc. etc.  The case as been
under discussion for many decades.  No definite solution in sight.  (most
materials in M.  Mayrhofer, Etym. Woerterbuch, 1996 p. 330)

> The point is that we have fragments of other texts on horses and
> period<, almost 300 years before Kikkuli.

Fine, but the question remains. Why Kikkuli at all? The Hittite texts are
from a State Archive. You do not copy 'official' texts just "to have the
book". They all (including myths) have  their purpose.

> And what is the evidence for claiming that Mitannis' methods were
> better?

Better? Did I say so? -- maybe different, maybe better for certain
training situations, I vaguely remember some study to that effect:
When I get the time I will inform on recent studies of the Kikkuli text


> >The turn (vartana) is around the pole at the end of the track. [...]
> >Yes, but there also is 1 turn only:

> I did not know that only the turn at the end was counted. I will
> appreciate textual citations that prove this

Will have to search in my office...
At any rate, Avestan has (1) the normal case:

Yast 13.8: "they drive to the distant turning point (dUraE-uruuaEsa-) of
the path, to reach the turning point (uruuaesa)...

Zoroaster himself likes to use this ONE turning point (as may racing
terms) in his 'theology": 'at the furthest turning point of life (death)'
(usteme uruuaEse gaiiehe), Yasna 43.5 etc., "at the final aim of creation"
(from where the Christian' final judgement'): apEmE anghEus uruuaEsE,
(Vistasp Yast 51.6) , i.e. the decisive moment where you crash or not, in
his terms: go to 'heaven' or to fall into molten metal...

But (2), Avestan also has: races with not just one turn (Mitanni
aika-vartana) in a race but more (Mit. tri-, panza-, satta-, nava-vartana)
are also reflected, then of course requiring TWO turning points: "like
horses wanting to reach the turning point in front (fratara- uruaEsa-)
from the one in the back (apara- uruuaEsa-)." Vistasp Yast 29

> >(if imported from the Near East you would use the Near Eastern
> >term,like gilgul 'wheel': see below).

> Not always. People use loan translations too.

Yes, indeed, or rather also NEW (descriptive) formations imitating, before
their time, Engl. slang "my wheels" = my car, Latin currus etc.; -- but to
turn the table:  as may be the case in the Greek etc. words for
chariots...

In such cases we need other, corroborative evidence.


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From thompson at JLC.NET  Mon Jun  8 13:32:09 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 09:32:09 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039694.23782.13455073776175156432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, let's see if I can improve my score.

First of all, clarification: I think it is inappropriate to interpret my
ref. to RV 8.46 as proposed support for my dating of the RV. This seems to
me to be a confusion of levels, like arguing that footnote 38 of some book
doesn't provide enough evidence for the book's thesis: that is not the duty
of footnotes. Of course, my discussion on RV 8.46 does not provide enough
"numerical strength" to support a dating claim for the RV. How could it? It
is proposed as support for my claim that there is evidence of "contact"
between Vedic Aryans and Iranian Aryans in the RV. Jan Houben's objections
notwithstanding, I still see it as good evidence of such "contact."

Now, what is meant by "contact"? JH observes that the patron pRthuzravas
kaniTa is a "fully acculturated Aryan in language and culture." No doubt.
But my general claim, often overlooked in general as here, is that Iranian
Aryans are just as Aryan as Vedic Aryans. And in the case of pRthuzravas,
his lineage seems to be as much Iranian as Vedic [or perhaps both]. But my
point about a'deva [which, by the way, I do not mean to suggest is a
bahuvrIhi] perhaps was not made clear enough in my first post:

The RSi vaza azvya, the beneficiary of pRthuzravas's generosity, contrasts
his own good fortune against that of the a'deva: the one who does not
worship the devas. Now, such an a'deva could be: (1) a Vedic Aryan hostile
to the devas; (2) an Iranian Aryan hostile to the devas; (3) a Dravidian or
some other non-Aryan hostile to the devas.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on (2), especially since kanIta is a
non-Vedic, a Sythian, name. But there is other evidence to support this
claim. First, the general background: the eighth maNDala is a late book and
is located by Witzel [Erdosy volume p. 317] in the Panjab, in general in
the NW of the Vedic cultura area. This maNDala shows many signs of
connection with Iran [Witzel, ibid], including "settlement at close range,
as well as extensive trade relations between the various trives [Vedic and
Iranian -- paranthesis added by me]..." [Witzel, p.323]. I have already
mentioned the camels in my first post; there is also mention of 'mathra
horses' at 8.46.23. Both of these animals [as well as dogs] have been cited
by Witzel as indicators of 'Iranian connection', esp. when in association
with Iranian names, as at RV 8.5.37-39 kazu, cited by Witzel in his earlier
post on this thread. Likewise, parzu, also cited earlier.

I assumed that I could take for granted this previously cited evidence for
the lateness and the westness [Iranian-ness] of maNDala 8. And my
suggestion re the term a'deva was meant as further support for this.

On the other hand, consider the other non-Vedic names that appear in this
hymn: araTva akSa, associated with NahuSa, in st. 27, and the dAsa balbUtha
tarukSa in st. 32. [both cited by Kuiper in *Aryans in the RV*]. Besides
balbUtha, Witzel [ibid. 325] cites several other non-Vedic names that
appear in maNDala eight, possibly aboriginal rather than Iranian. To be
sure, the presence of possible indigenous peoples besides non-Vedic,
*Iranian*, Aryans complicates the picture. I will never claim that the RV
presents us with clear pictures of history.

But given this evidence of contact with Iranians in this book, given also
the obvious phraseological parallels between Vedic and Avestan that I could
adduce just from this hymn alone, I think that there is very good reason to
think that the term a'deva is semantically more specific than we have
recognized to date.

A general point might be made here: I myself have tended to look at the
large number of phraseological parallels between Vedic and Avestan as due
largely to shared cultural inheritance. I had not given much thought to the
possibility of fairly regular contact at RV levels. My views have changed.
The efforts of Witzel, Parpola, Falk, et al., to extract history from the
RV have allowed me to see the possibility of revising my understanding of
terms like a'deva.

[Aside to Jan: perhaps this post presents stronger evidence? More
available, if desired].

Best wishes,

George




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Jun  8 11:23:00 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 12:23:00 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039680.23782.12345715983585753048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 5 Jun  "S. Kalyanaraman" wrote:

>Scenarios and percentages... Should RV be expected to contain
>EVERYTHING as Subrahmanya had observed in another context?
>. . .
>Maybe, some rigour in methods should be discussed here, before
>'fitting' RV texts and poesy with the 'external' evidence from other
>disciplines such as archaeology, historical metallurgy or earth
>sciences.

"The Rigveda is not a book, but a library and a literature" (E.V. Arnold 1905).
We can expect quite a lot in this rich collection. Yet, the poets did not
intend to leave a record of their natural, political and social environment to
their decendents, still less to modern scholars.
Therefore, here are some thoughts on "methods [for] 'fitting' RV texts . . .
with the 'external' evidence":

The meaning of pu'r as philologically established by Rau does not suit the
Harappan cities. So the RV-poets did not refer to Harappan cities. But neither
did they refer to DESERTED Harappan cities. Nor did they refer to "a squatter
population living amid the ruins" although such populations must have been
around if the Aryans came into being (through South-Central Asian exchange and
acculturation) after the Harappans (for the post-Harappan squatters cf. Allchin
1995:31). If the RV-poets adhered strongly to a tradition  (poetic,
mythological and ritual), their perception of reality must have been somehow
restricted and selective. Someone told me several years ago that in Indonesian
politics people are wont to refer to each other in term of MahAbhArata-
personages: those are Kauravas, you behave like bhIma, etc. In the same way
mythological references may simultaneously refer to present circumstances. Yet,
certain restrictions and selections are unavoidably there.

Hence, rather than going for what Allchin calls so nicely "spurious certainty",
it will be important to try to establish how selective the perception and
representations of the RVic poets was. For this purpose, one could start with
making a list of things and situations which "must have been around" in the
RVic poets' time (e.g. under the hypothesis: RV post 1900, pre 1200 B.C.) but
to which they did not refer. Harappan ruins would be one item, but other quite
extensive settlements of the post-urban period seem also to have been neglected
if p'ur means what it philologically apparently means. Quite another thing
which must have been around but was not referred to is the iSTakA or brick (or
is there another RV-ic word referring to it?). But an iSTakA having technical
links with the Harappan culture appears soon after the RV in the YVic texts and
was used in the Agnicayana (cf. Romila Thapar in Staal's Agni, vol. 2).
Animals not referred to: nakula, not even in comparisons . . .
Any additions to this list ?

For the ante quem of ca. 1200 B.C. this would not have serious consequences.
But for the post quem at 1900 B.C. the argument would have to be elaborated.
It could be said that missing the much more conspicuous inhabited Harappan
cities is less likely than missing their ruins or the people squatting there.
Probably some more complicated argument is needed, which circumferes the
problem of a restricted perception and reflection of reality by RV poets.
A sketch of such an argument: earlier Vedic texts presuppose a social world
quite different from that of the second urbanized period (for an exploration of
the social structure and social institutions obtaining in this pre-urban period
see Falk 1986). This early Vedic social structure would also be incompatible
with a strongly urbanized society during the SarasvatI-Indus civ., as the
urbanized culture during its flourishing period would profoundly influence the
surrounding settlements as well. The wars and upheavels referred to in the
"bulk of the RV" (Witzel) would also be incompatible with an era in which urban
centers profoundly influence the environment, economically and politically. The
main RV-period must then be post Sarasv-Indus. Why not pre-Sarasv.-Indus? If a
long period of strong urbanization would have intervened between the
composition of the RV on the one hand and the AV etc. on the other (the latter
being linked with increasing importance of iron, rice), one could not expect so
many strong continuities between RV and AV etc. This would exclude a pre-
Sarasv.-Indus RV (at more than 2500 B.C.).

Greetings, JH




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Jun  8 11:52:25 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 12:52:25 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039683.23782.3963050351927121012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun 7 Jun 1998  Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote

>>Michael Witzel's Development of Vedic canon
and Schools

>Could I get the full bibliographic details for this book, please?

Michael Witzel: "The Development of the Vedic Canon and its School: the social
and political milieu" In: Inside the Texts - Beyond the Texts: New Approaches
to the study of the Veda (Proceedings of Intern. Vedic Workshop, Harvard Univ.
1989), ed. by M. Witzel, (Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, volume 2),
Cambridge 1997. ISBN 1-888 789-03-4.
[Book contains contributions by Brereton, Caillat, Cardona, Dandekar,
Elizarenkova, Fairservis, Falk, Fujii, Hock, Jamison, Klein, Minkowski,
Oguibenine, Parpola, Rau, H.-P. Schmidt, Soehnen, Watkins and Witzel.]




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jun  8 12:59:48 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 13:59:48 +0100
Subject: [Announcement] Inspiration of Astronomical Phenomenma (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227039692.23782.15300794548328422957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Our "corresponding member", Rolf Sinclair (of Antarctic fame) has passed
the following announcement to me for distribution to INDOLOGY.  The
conference's subject matter, Rolf feels, is sufficiently broad that
indologists might be interested.

All the best,
Dominik

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:16:01 -0400
From: Rolf Sinclair/NSF Physics Division <rsinclai at nsf.gov>
Subject: Inspiration of Astronomical Phenomenma

Dear Colleagues:

With this note, we wish to inform you of the up-coming
Second International Conference on

THE INSPIRATION OF ASTRONOMICAL PHENOMENA ("INSAP II"), to be held 7-14
January 1999 on the Mediterranean island of Malta

The sky makes up half of mankind's world; the Earth around us makes up the
other half.  This meeting will explore mankind's fascination with the
astronomical phenomena that define the sky -- the lights in the sky, by
day and by night -- which have been a strong and often dominant element in
human life and culture. Scholars from a variety of disciplines (including
Archaeology, Art, Classics, History and Prehistory, Mythology and
Folklore, Philosophy, the Physical Sciences, and Religion) will attend
"INSAP II"  to discuss the impacts astronomical phenomena have had on
mankind.  Presentations by attendees will be grouped under four main
topics: Literature; Art; Myth and Religion;  History and Prehistory.
Speakers will include (tentatively) Professor Albert Boime (Univ. of
California-Los Angeles): "The Artistic Portrayal of Starry Skies", and
Doctor Madanjeet Singh (UNESCO, Paris): "The Sun, Symbol of Power and
Life".

The Conference will allow the attendees to address the many and variegated
cultural impacts of the perceptions of the day and night skies, providing
a mechanism for a broad group of artists, historians, philosophers, and
scientists to meet, compare notes, and have the chance to ask those
questions of each other about their work which may have been lying fallow
for decades. Attendance will be by invitation from among those applying.
Full information on the Conference and an application form can be obtained
by contacting the Organizing Committee, or from our Website
(http://ethel.as.arizona.edu/~white/insap.htm).

This Conference is the second to be held on this general theme. Details of
the first meeting (held at Castel Gandolfo, Vatican State, 27 June-2 July
1994), and the publication references that include many of the papers
presented there, may be found also at the above Website (URL as given).

This Conference is sponsored by the OTS Foundation and the Vatican
Observatory.

Please circulate or post this announcement.

The Organizing Committee:

Professor Raymond E. White, Steward Observatory, University of Arizona
(Chair) (rwhite at as.arizona.edu)
Rev. George V. Coyne, S. J., The Vatican Observatory: (gcoyne at as.arizona.edu)
Dr. Rolf M. Sinclair, National Science Foundation, Arlington VA
(rsinclai at nsf.gov)
Prof. Frank Ventura, Malta (fven at cis.um.edu.mt)




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Jun  8 18:17:13 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 14:17:13 -0400
Subject: Search for 2 Bengali books
Message-ID: <161227039702.23782.3291908980004737709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for a patron for a copy of the following Bengali language book
on Bangladesh politics which does not appear in the Library of Congress
catalog, or Accessions List, or the Bangladesh National Bibliography (at
least I haven't found it there yet), or OCLC.  I told the patron that I would
make a broadcast in case someone owned a personal copy or knew of the
book otherwise.

Shaikh Mizanur Rahman, 1956-
Bangalira Mon, Bangalira  Bhasha.
Dhaka, 1972
The book is a parody of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's Bangladesh, My
Bangladesh, published in Delhi by Orient Longman in 1972.

The other request is from another patron.  She has reason to suspect that
a Bengali version of the autobiography of the American revolutionary leftist
Agnes Smedley, who was involved in politics in both India and China,
entitled Daughter of Earth, may have been published.  I have been unable
to locate any such thing after searching catalogs of Bengali libraries and of
translations into Bengali.  I have asked the patron to search Index
Translationum for herself.  I am not asking anyone to hit the books to find
this but if anyone happens to know of the book or to have a personal copy,
could they please contact me?

Thanks,

Allen Thrasher
Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE  Mon Jun  8 14:22:20 1998
From: gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 15:22:20 +0100
Subject: (Fwd) Book of Poisons
Message-ID: <161227039696.23782.933776663945136373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
I received the following mail which I 'd like to give to a wider
circle hoping that anyone could answer at least some of the
questions. Please answer directly to Meline Nielsen's address, NOT to
Indology and not to my address.
Thank you very much,
yours Gabriele
##################################
------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht / Forwarded message -------
Organization:  Westhill College Of HE
Date:          Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:33:23 +0100 BST
Reply-to:      m.nielsen at westhill.ac.uk
Priority:      normal
Subject:       Book of Poisons
From:          "Meline Nielsen" <nielsenm at wh2.westhill.ac.uk>
To:            lis-middle-east at mailbase.ac.uk

I have received this enquiry from Dr Manzoor Alam (a medical doctor).

"On 27 June 98 I am presenting a paper to an International Conference
and the subject I have chosen is the Book of Poisons by Shanaq
al-Hindi, 300 BC. Chanakya or Shanaq al-Hindi wrote 'Niti Shastra'
and 'Arthsastra'. The 'Arthsastra' has a chapter on poisons. Kitab
al-Sumum or the Book of Poisons was first translated in Persian in
815 by Abu Hatim Bulkhi and it was further translated in Arabic by
Abbas bin Said Jawhary in 825.
- Is there any trace of this work in Sanskrit (other than what is in
'Arthsastra)?
- What medium was used for the Sanskrit version ie. 'bhojpatter',
leather etc.?
- Does the Persian manuscript exist?
-Could the antidote be made and scientifically tested against
poisons?
-Did the poisonous girls (Vishya Kannya) really exist?
- Did people use poisons in small doses to develop immunity against
the poison?
It is said that Mahmud "Begra" of Gudjrant inoculated against poisons
by consuming it in gradually increasing doses "so that if a fly
settled on his hand it fell dead" (The Encyclopaedia of Islam, New
Ed. Vol 11, 1983, p1127).
-Were there dinner plates which could detect poisons by changing
colour or breaking if, poisons were put in them? Any evidence of
this?
Please help!"

The only reference I could find on the web was an article in a
journal of the Armed Forces of  Pakistan:
http://www.defencejournal.com/march98/chanakya1/htm

I wonder whether anyone can shed light on at least the
bibliographical enquiry.

Many thanks

****************************************************
Meline Nielsen
Services Manager and Deputy Director
Orchard Learning Resources Centre
Selly Oak Colleges
Hamilton Drive, Weoley Park Rd
Birmingham B29 6QW

E-mail : m.nielsen at westhill.ac.uk
****************************************************




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  9 03:37:26 1998
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 20:37:26 -0700
Subject: Saras... (Soma vessel)
Message-ID: <161227039704.23782.4958296626003625405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---Michael Witzel  wrote:
>>
>
> However, whatever the object on the seals and in ivory may be,
AGAIN, it
> does not fit the Rgvedic evidence.
> Even if it were a Soma filter/sieve, this filter looks different in
the
> RV:  We need a sheep skin and a vessel into which Soma flows.
>
  The fact that the filter looks different in the RV does not, IMHO,
make a very sound argument. Consider, for example, the coffee drinking
habit in South India. At the same time you can see 4 different types
of the coffee filter viz., made of steel, gauze cloth, brass and being
part of the international trade network, paper.

> Whoever the Harappans/Indus/Ghaggar-Hakra-Nara people were and
whatever
> their religion was, the Soma filter in the RV and Mahadevan's do not
fit.

Refer above. There can be filters and filters. Mahadevan does have the
following to say: " A comparison of the Harappan filter symbol and the
Rgvedic expressions cited above indicates that the upper vessel
corresponds to sAnu, the 'top' of the Vedic filter device, and the
horizontal bands of lines drawn across the upper vessel represent
layers of some porous medium for straining (probably sheep wool as
described in the RV)." (ibid. p 18)
>
> Geldner says, RV translation vol. III (Harvard Oriental seies 35) p.
5:
> (I translate from the German and summarize:)
>
> * watering the soma stems; repeated dipping, shaking, and watering
>
> * pressing the soma on a stone with the help of another stone
>   --  above a cow skin (sorry!!)
>   perhaps also by using 2 (wooden) pressing boards

Correct me if I'm wrong, I am however under the impression that the
pressing boards have not found any mention in the RV text itself
(barring "camvoh sutah"?)

>         (it sometimes seems that this pressed fluid runs down
directly into a
>         watery vessel) << I may add that Ahalya does all of this with
>         just her teeth... and Indra comes running >>

Refer in this context, IM's interpretation of
A yonim somah sukrtam niSHIdati (9.70.7) (ibid. p 19).

Also, refer the way the hymn dealing with Indra's birth has been
interpreted:
nAham ato nirayA durgahaitat tirazcatA pArzvAn nirgamAni (4.18.2).

Also, the path of the Soma thru the sieve:
ati zritI tirazcatA gavyA jigAty aNvyA (9.14.6)
>
> * the pressed juice is poured on a sieve made of ***sheep hair***.
>   and is cleansed of its filament remnants
>
>   on this sieve, Soma moves about in circles and flows down through
it,
>   with 'spouts/beams/rays' (Strahl = dhAra) into the large Soma
>   vessel or vessels  below it.

Refer in this connection the three part dashed line grapheme in the
Indus sign list. (Mahadevan 1977: Signs 119, 120 and 121 & their
graphic variants called the "Flow" signs. Also refer Signs 336, 337,
335 called "Mortar" signs. as well as Signs 332, 333, 334 called
"Sieve" signs )
>
> * water is added in order to water down the Soma and make it
drinkable.
>   Water is either poured into the vesel or it flows down via the sieve
>
> * Soma is then drunk pure, or mixed with milk, or with sour milk
>
I do not think an identical preparation and drinking process is being
advanced by anyone here. Also, refer interpretation of dhAmanI pratIcI
(9.66.2), samIcIne dhiSHaNe (10.44.8), yamyA samyAti (9.68.3), sa
mAtarA vicaran (9.68.4) in support of the twin vessels concept
advanced by IM.

>
> There are no (100) holes drilled in the RV sieve. Rather the texts
speak
> about Soma running like rivers to the samudra ... not into
caves/holes....
>

Refer above.
> A pity that one item after the other doesn't work out...

I am not so sure. Evidently, IM's paper needs to be read in the
original.

> One has to look for REAL survivals
>

I agree. But let us look at some very basic questions. Is Indra
attested outside IA? Is Soma attested outside IA-IIr? Is it
inconceivable that a pre-Aryan myth/ritual is adopted wholesale by the
Vedic speakers and grafted onto Indra, no doubt for authenticity etc?
Won't be the first time, would it?

I would like to close this long post with a quote: " Our sources of
information are scanty. The truth can often not be based on
incontestable facts but must be elicited from circumstantial evidence.
Yet, we can, ... piece together a fairly accurate picture of Vedic
material culture". (W. Rau, The Meaning of _Pur_ in Vedic Literature,
Munich 1973).

Thanking Lord Venkateswara for getting W. Rau to write this monograph
in English -;)))

Warm Regards.


==
Lakshmi Srinivas





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun  8 16:52:54 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 21:52:54 +0500
Subject: [Announcement] Inspiration of Astronomical Phenomenma (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227039698.23782.15965901759551331060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:59 PM 6/8/98 +0100, you wrote:
 "The Artistic Portrayal of Starry Skies", and
>Doctor Madanjeet Singh (UNESCO, Paris): "The Sun, Symbol of Power and
>Life".
>

sUrya AtmA jagatas tasThuSazca

Till the advent of nuclear energy all the sources of energy man
has ever used (  food, wood, running water, fossil fuels etc.) is
from the sun.

regards,

sarma.




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun  8 17:04:17 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 22:04:17 +0500
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039700.23782.12033536146542698708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues:
One point about the transliteration. Proto-Dravidian has a retroflex
fricative/frictionless continuant (Firth describes that it is somewhat like
the  Mideast American English r phonetically) which is retained in Tamil and
Malayalam. Emeneau and Burrow have transcribed it a r with <two subdots>. A
number of dravidian scholars now use a z <subdot>, because then it matches
with the other retroflexes which are transliterated with a <subdot>. This
symbol is not used for any other phoneme in Dravidian. Please consider it.
Regards, Bh.K.


At 11:24 06/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Colleagues
>
>A preliminary draft of an ISO Committee Draft for Indic transliteration
>(CD15919) is now at:
>
>   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trdcd1a.htm
>
>Your comments are welcome.
>
>With apologies to those who receive more than one copy of this posting.
>Tony Stone
>
>Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
>Indic scripts.   Email: stone_catendompuserve.com             Thinking
>aloud on transliteration:
>   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm
>
>
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Tue Jun  9 06:25:46 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 08:25:46 +0200
Subject: saras 2
In-Reply-To: <v04003a0ab19fab6da93c@[153.37.28.29]>
Message-ID: <161227039706.23782.2685054922219165674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Nirukta 2.23;
>'The following fifty-seven (words) [in the NighaNTu] are synonyms of
>speech. From what (root) is vAc (speech) derived? It is derived from (the
>root) vac (to speak). With reference to these, the word SarasvatI is used
>both in the sense of 'a river' and of 'a deity' in Vedic passages" (trans.
>by Lakshman Sarup).
>
>Beatrice Reusch
>University of California, Berkeley

Dear Beatrice,
        I thank you sincerely for this extract but, not understanting it
well, I'd have an other request:
        Despite the "With reference to these", it seems we have a big break
in the reasoning, between 'speech' and 'river'/'deity'. Even if we read
"vAc (deity)" and if we suppose a metonymy vAc/sarasvatI (both deities),
the 'river' is still far. An ellipsis of the metaphor 'speech'/'river'? Are
you (or someone else) in a position to explain this?
        Best regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK  Tue Jun  9 08:16:33 1998
From: jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK (John Richards)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 09:16:33 +0100
Subject: Vivekachudamani and Sanskrit for MS Word Utility
Message-ID: <161227039708.23782.15254933742759357123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

May I briefly draw the attention of members of the list to two small
items.

Firstly there is now a Sanskrit text + English translation of
Shankara's Vivekachudamani available on the Indology site text
collection OR on the Jaguar Sanskrit text collection OR on my own
site. I would welcome constructive criticism.

Secondly, I have devised, originally for my own use, a little Utility
(a suite of three templates) for typing Sanskrit very easily directly
into Word 97 in Devanagari, CSX or Nina 1.0 format. It is completely
Freeware, and not absolutely perfect, but very effective and
serviceable for all that. I would again welcome suggestions for
improvement. There is also a Word 6 version for just Devanagari and
Nina - but not fully complete yet.

Both the above are available from

  http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk/sanskrit/index.htm


Namaskar to all.

John Richards
Stackpole Rectory, Pembroke, UK
jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk
http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Jun  9 17:21:52 1998
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 10:21:52 -0700
Subject: saras 2
In-Reply-To: <l03020901b1a27df0d9c3@[134.59.129.68]>
Message-ID: <161227039719.23782.5984859456869413745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Nirukta 2.23;
>
>        Despite the "With reference to these", it seems we have a big break
>in the reasoning, between 'speech' and 'river'/'deity'. Even if we read
>"vAc (deity)" and if we suppose a metonymy vAc/sarasvatI (both deities),
>the 'river' is still far. An ellipsis of the metaphor 'speech'/'river'? Are
>you (or someone else) in a position to explain this?

Good points, Dominique.
I defer to Houben, Thompson, Witzel (alphabetical order) on this.

With best wishes,

Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun  9 11:01:23 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 12:01:23 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039710.23782.2125886790579758499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 George Thompson wrote:

>I assumed that I could take for granted this previously cited evidence for
>the lateness and the westness [Iranian-ness] of maNDala 8. And my
>suggestion re the term a'deva was meant as further support for this.

Focussing on method: don't you mean that the "previously cited evidence for the
lateness and the westness of maNDala 8" (for which, indeed, there is sufficient
evidence; not yet for its "Iranian-ness") could be taken as supportive for your
suggestion re the term a'deva (rather than the other way round)?

>This maNDala shows many signs of connection with Iran [Witzel, ibid],
>including "settlement at close range,
>as well as extensive trade relations between the various trives [Vedic and
>Iranian -- paranthesis added by me]..." [Witzel, p.323].

Significantly, in my view, the full sentence in Witzel's study in the Erdosy
volume reads:
"This indicates a settlement at close range, as well as extensive trade
relations between the various tribes, which were disturbed, nay severed, by
their migrations over various routes into Iran, Afghanistan and the Panjab."

a'deva specifically referring to Iranians with a Zarathustric religion?
The possibility has been established. But does this lead to a cluster of
mutually reinforcing positive probabilities (which is probably the highest
degree of success one can attain if one has to rely exclusively on rather one-
sided textual sources)? For instance, does the new suggestion give better
interpretations of a'deva at the numerous other occurrences in the RV? A quick
check did not convince me. But I will leave it now to others to give their
comments on your challenging suggestion.

JH




From jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK  Tue Jun  9 12:02:38 1998
From: jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK (John Richards)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 13:02:38 +0100
Subject: ... Sanskrit for MS Word Utility
In-Reply-To: <00a401bd9398$1c0bf660$0ec116c2@default>
Message-ID: <161227039714.23782.12461832309293649578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> >There is also a Word 6 version for just Devanagari
> >and Nina - but not fully complete yet.
>
> I may have made a mistake or overlooked something, but the
> macros for combining consonants don't seem to work. Is the
> font "Sanskrit New" (referred to in the macros Conjnct 1-3)
> something which will make the utility more complete or is
> it just an older name for "Sanskrit 1.2"? I.e., does
> "Sanskrit 1.2" cover all the possible combinations, so that
> a slight change in the macros will do?

No. My apologies. Most of my effort has been going into the Word 97
version. The Sanskrit 1.2 is an upgrade of the Sanskrit New font, and
I was switching over, but forgot to amend part of the coding. You
should find the version there now OK. Sorry to have put you to
inconvenience.

Best wishes

John




From urban.lindqvist at UPPSALA.MAIL.TELIA.COM  Tue Jun  9 11:14:45 1998
From: urban.lindqvist at UPPSALA.MAIL.TELIA.COM (Urban Lindqvist)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 13:14:45 +0200
Subject: SV: ... Sanskrit for MS Word Utility
Message-ID: <161227039712.23782.8115022363321542697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Richards wrote:

>There is also a Word 6 version for just Devanagari
>and Nina - but not fully complete yet.

I may have made a mistake or overlooked something, but the macros for combining consonants don't seem to work. Is the font "Sanskrit New" (referred to in the macros Conjnct 1-3) something which will make the utility more complete or is it just an older name for "Sanskrit 1.2"? I.e., does "Sanskrit 1.2" cover all the possible combinations, so that a slight change in the macros will do?

Regards
Urban Lindqvist
urban.lindqvist at uppsala.mail.telia.com




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  9 22:46:11 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 15:46:11 -0700
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039722.23782.16843625067865705103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to know the earliest known mention of the practice of
Niyoga in ancient India( historical/mythological).{Niyoga is the
practice of a woman marrying her brother-in-law on the demise of her
husband}.

  Further, from what I know of the Ramayana, rUmA the wife of sugrIva
is made to marry vAli when sugrIva is exiled by vAli. Is this an example
of niyOga i.e. the difference being that sugrIva wasn't dead
when rUma became the wife of vAli.

Regards,
Krishna

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From urban.lindqvist at UPPSALA.MAIL.TELIA.COM  Wed Jun 10 02:07:09 1998
From: urban.lindqvist at UPPSALA.MAIL.TELIA.COM (Urban Lindqvist)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 04:07:09 +0200
Subject: SV:      Re: ... Sanskrit for MS Word Utility
Message-ID: <161227039725.23782.7775844211585105026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ok, thanks!

Urban

>No. My apologies. Most of my effort has been going into the Word 97
>version. The Sanskrit 1.2 is an upgrade of the Sanskrit New font, and
>I was switching over, but forgot to amend part of the coding. You
>should find the version there now OK. Sorry to have put you to
>inconvenience.
>
>Best wishes
>
>John
>




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun 10 13:08:16 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 09:08:16 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV, III
In-Reply-To: <01IXZS5MMVPE94DZRX@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl>
Message-ID: <161227039730.23782.2649069353925706874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just a few notes on:

On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Jan E.M. Houben wrote:

> Therefore, here are some thoughts on "methods [for] 'fitting' RV texts . . .
> with the 'external' evidence":
> Neither did they refer to DESERTED Harappan cities.

except: armaka 1.133.3 and (if one follows Geldner): [mahaa-]vailasthaana
also in 1.133.1  (cf. paper on arma(ka) by Harry Falk: Vedisch arma.
Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenlandischen Gesellschaft 131, 1981,
160-171

> Nor did they refer
> to "a squatter
> population living amid the ruins"
Not in this passage. One would have to look more carefully. I do not
remember any passage to that effect right now.

> If the RV-poets adhered strongly to a tradition  (poetic,
> mythological and ritual), their perception of reality must have been somehow
> restricted and selective.
Yes,  but they CAN also be quite mercenary, esp. in their daanastutis...

restrictive also as the RV is a collection of hymns (almost exclusively?)
composed for the (New Year [thus, Kuiper]) Soma sacrifice. What do you
expect of a liturgy for Easter or Passover? David's latest military
exploits and his love affairs? As you pointed out: we have to be happy
with what the poets actually mentioned, often in their similes! (usually
one of the best sources for contemporary info).

> mythological references may simultaneously refer to present
> circumstances.

The famous daasa/dasyu references.... Or S'ambara with his mountain
fortresses... We still do that as well: foreign devils, the
great/small Shaitan, the Hun...

> a list of things and situations ...
> to which they did not refer.
> Harappan
> ruins would be one item, but other quite extensive settlements of the
> post-urban period seem also to have been neglected

Fine. Here H.Falk's comparison with the Godaar tribe of SW Afghanistan (in
the volume "Inside the texts..")  can serve as a starting point! Societies
can live side by side in that manner: RV poets and cattle herders have
little interest in agriculture and agriculturists, though they are
mentioned (kiinaaza) .- cf. similar situation in the later PGW culture,
discussed recently. -

They refer to these 'neighbors' occasionally: I like RV 3.33 best:  "what
is the use of cows with the KiikaTa"? i.e. a "Massai" attitude:  all cows
belong to us, and only we know how to handle them and how to offer them to
the gods...

> Quite another thing which must have been around but was not referred to
> is the iSTakA or brick (or is there another RV-ic word referring to
> it?).

But there is alrady Iranian (Avest.) is'tiia, from the same root...
Apparently they knew of bricks, maybe learned it from the (pre-)BMAC
cultures, before c.  2000 BC. at the northern fringes of Iran/Afghanistan.
Note the two separate formations (perhaps, also cf. Tocharian izcem).

> But an iSTakA having technical
> links with the Harappan culture appears soon after the RV in the YVic
> texts and was used in the Agnicayana (cf. Romila Thapar in Staal's Agni,
> vol. 2).

They did not take the closely related Iranian evidence into account...
Not everything must come from Harappa... (Staal now has a paper, forthc.,
which takes note of the Avestan evidence).

I agree for the rest...
 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun 10 13:10:04 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 09:10:04 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV, III
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b1a0e593055b@[199.201.159.50]>
Message-ID: <161227039733.23782.8665853339475262998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, George Thompson wrote:

> A general point might be made here: I myself have tended to look at the
> large number of phraseological parallels between Vedic and Avestan as due
> largely to shared cultural inheritance. I had not given much thought to the
> possibility of fairly regular contact at RV levels.

I agree. I wonder even about grammatical innovations shared across the s/h
IA/Iranian "border" (I think, a few hints in my paper in : C.Caillat, les
dialects indo-aryennes, Paris 1989). Things of that nature can happen
between such closely realted "dialects", e.g. Low German (more like Dutch,
Anglo-Saxon) and High German, or now between Dutch and Frisian (inside the
Netherlands only), and I would guess between Provencal and Paris French
(Dominique, maybe you can tell us?).  -- More in a forthc. paper for the
1997 Erlangen conf. of the Indogerman.Gesellschaft, due this year, ed.
B.Forssman.

And as for George's comments on book 8: his combination of IA, Old
Iranians, and non-IA tribes ... I agre; more in the next S.Asia conf. at
Madison (Indus Civ. panel) in Oct.... too early to tell now (I am working
on it right now) : A quite complicated picture but one which might inject
more reality, again, into our preception of the (later) RV period...

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun 10 13:24:30 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 09:24:30 -0400
Subject: method ../NIYOGA
In-Reply-To: <19980609224611.21642.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227039736.23782.8035116873497602702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

H.-P. Schmidt has discussed this custom at length  in his small book,
actually a series of lectures at Poona:

 Some womens' rites and rights in the Veda, Poona, 1987

I have a summary in Journal of South Asian women Studies (JSAWS) :
www.shore.net/~india/jsaws
The first few volumes have been published as book recently: E.Garzilli
(ed.), Milano 1997

The earliest mention is in Rgveda:

RV 10.40.2 is very clear about this: Who takes you (the As'vin) to bed,
like a widow the brother-in-law (devR), like a young woman a man, in
the dwelling.


On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, S Krishna wrote:

> I would like to know the earliest known mention of the practice of
> Niyoga in ancient India( historical/mythological).


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From thompson at JLC.NET  Wed Jun 10 14:40:27 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 09:40:27 -0500
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039743.23782.4576589970758865218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jan Houben is quite right to point out the circularity in my last post. I
will try to keep better watch over myself.

I am concerned to address his concerns re methodology, in particlular his
point re "numerical strength" of the evidence used [a point which, of
course, I accept -- basic philology].

I have in fact been studying all of the relevant passages. The material is,
I think, important, and raises many issues which I hope to be able to
explore [rest assured, though, that I do not intend to bombard the list
with this]. Just some general remarks here about the general context:

In his last post JH suggested, I think, that RV 8.46.21 was not
representative of all of the attestations of the term a'deva. In fact, this
is true, but that is also why it is of interest.

In general, one associates the term a'deva with the VRtra myth. VRtra is
probably the a'deva par excellence. The term a'deva also plays a key role
in Kuiper's theory of a cosmogonic rivalry between the asuras and the
devas. K makes much of RV 8.96.9 a'surA adevA'H [note the shift in accent:
this is the only example of *adeva* with end-accent -- perhaps marking it
as a bahuvrIhi only here, or perhaps there is more to it? or very little?].
There is also an interesting play on the phrase *vi'zve devA'H* at 7.1.10,
with vi'zvA a'devIH ... mAyA'H ['all the ungodly magical practices' of
those hostile to the Vedic Aryans; more on this below].

What is of particular interest is the relationship between those passages
[such as 8.46.21] in which the term a'deva [also adeva' and A'deva] seems
to refer to humans, rather than to demons [or rather 'non-gods' or gods who
are enemies of the devas; note that the terms ra'kSas (neut.)and rakSa's
(masc.) are both fairly common in a'deva contexts]. As is typical of
Rgvedic "evidence" in general, in the collection of passages where this
term occurs there is a complex interweaving of mythological and poetic
motives with historical ones. In other words, the references to historical
figures, i.e., the proper names that look Iranian or at least non-Vedic,
which have been discussed on this thread so far, are colored by semantic
associations with mythology. Such is the case too with the term a'deva. All
of this is very Vedic, of course. This makes the evidence difficult,
because of the multiple references radiating out from such culturally
loaded terms. But this complextiy is also one of the pleasures of Vedic.

So when we encounter an a'deva in the RV, we are not encountering some kind
of monad that can be isolated and clearly articulated. We are encountering
a piece of a very elaborate mosaic [many pieces of which, of course, are
missing].

The piece that we are looking at on this thread, the term a'deva, is linked
to many important motives in the RV. Among them, just to throw out another
issue, is the development of Indra within an Indo-Iranian context. The fact
that Iranians know of Indra only in late Avestan texts suggests to me that
Indra cannot be reconstructed to a common Indo-Iranian period or culture
area [even considering the presence of Indra in the Mitanni texts]. The
refs. in the Vendidad to Indra, as the first member of a list of demon
[daEuua] names, is to me good evidence of historical contact, rather than
common cultural inheritance.

Finally, an interesting hymn that links many of these motives and develops
them in a different direction is RV 5.2, a well-known hymn to Agni, to the
esoteric hidden Agni to whom many of the Vedic RSis were particularly
attracted [rather than, say, macho Indra]. In this hymn, there are
brahmodya-like riddles, priestly self-assertion [several times repeated
apazyam, atakSam], rare RV allusion to the zunaHzepa story [with the
assertion, contradicted it would seem by the fuller version at AB 7.13f.,
that it was Agni who freed zunaHzepa, rather than VaruNa or the gods
collectively].

We have reference in st. 3 to the priest's rivals as anindrA'H and
anukthA'H. So when we encounter the phrases a'devIr mAyA'H [magic practices
of the a'deva] in st. 9 and paribA'dho a'devIH [obstructions of the a'deva]
in st. 10, I think it is reasonable to suppose that the reference is to
human beings, not gods or demons.

Who are these? Again, we have these possibilities:  (1) a Vedic Aryan hostile
to the devas; (2) an Iranian Aryan hostile to the devas; (3) a Dravidian or
some other non-Aryan hostile to the devas. Given that this hymn occurs in a
family book with some evident awareness of the West [cf. Witzel in the
Erdosy volume, p.317, citing the Krumu and Sarayu rivers: the latter at
least appears in Old Persian as haraiva, and in Late Avestan as hArOiiu;
cf. Haria, a territory in Margiana controlled a bit later by the Medes (see
Diakonoff in Camb. Hist. of Iran II, p.127, 129)], In my view (2) seems
more likely than (1) or (3). If we were talking about later Vedic [or even
later RV], I'd be inclined to (3) instead.

Like Jan Houben I will turn to the list for its judgments on this.

BTW, JH questions the likelihood of Vedic acquaintance with "Iranians with
a Zarathustric religion". The point, as I see it, of the "de-historicizing
of Zarathustra" is that Iranians had something like "Zarathustric religion"
even before Zarathustra. In fact, I see traces of "Zarathustric religion"
even in the RV, but that would be the subject of another post.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Wed Jun 10 09:25:45 1998
From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 11:25:45 +0200
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039727.23782.7157657014996685521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S Krishna wrote:
>
> I would like to know the earliest known mention of the practice of
> Niyoga in ancient India( historical/mythological).{Niyoga is the
> practice of a woman marrying her brother-in-law on the demise of her
> husband}.
>
>   Further, from what I know of the Ramayana, rUmA the wife of sugrIva
> is made to marry vAli when sugrIva is exiled by vAli. Is this an example
> of niyOga i.e. the difference being that sugrIva wasn't dead
> when rUma became the wife of vAli.
>
> Regards,
> Krishna
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
niyoga is a topic in the Vasisthadharmasastra, in a chapter which
looks very old (it has several layers) and which has been preserved in a
rather corrupted form. The oldest parts of the VasDhS
certainly go back to the time of Panini (because Panini refers to
words which occur only there). So the 4th century BC may be possible.
Harry Falk




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Jun 10 20:53:55 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 15:53:55 -0500
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039739.23782.10792695955047807143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Michael Witzel wrote:
>
>But there is alrady Iranian (Avest.) is'tiia, from the same root...
>Apparently they knew of bricks, maybe learned it from the (pre-)BMAC
>cultures, before c.  2000 BC. at the northern fringes of Iran/Afghanistan.
>Note the two separate formations (perhaps, also cf. Tocharian izcem).
>
Unable to produce any evidence of new intrusive or different culture -
invasion/migration theorists are now reduced to postulating
"takeover of power"  or "learning" from pre-existing cultures !!.

Parpola writes "The BMAC emerged as a direct continuation of
previous cultural developments in southern Turkmenistan. Its local
origin can be reconciled with the hypothesis of BMAC's Aryan linguistic
affinity only by assuming that the dramatic changes in its
socio-political structure C 1800BC resulted from the takeover of
power in Margiana by small groups of Aryan-speaking nomads coming
from the North" (pg363,IndoAryans of Ancient South Asia. Ed:Erdosy ).

So, the data is 'reconciled' into a pre-supposed migrationist hypothesis!.
If this aint retrofitting, what is ?

Actually, this is "standard operating procedure" of invasion/migration
theorists :  Presuppose a invasion/migration first , and then proceed to
interpret the data to fit it.

Coming to Sambara's forts, maybe Witzel can explain why it cannot
be a case of the indigenous Rgvedic aryas campaign against the Dasas.
Because - as Parpola states "Bactria and Margiana is precisely the region
where the Dasas, Dahyus and Panis are placed in Old Persian, Greek and Latin
sources" (pg367)


Regards,
Subrahmanya




From Pandanet at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Jun 10 23:18:36 1998
From: Pandanet at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Jogesh Panda)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 18:18:36 -0500
Subject: Chatterji article
Message-ID: <161227039745.23782.12389732462640319693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anyone knows about a Suniti Kumar Chatterji article that addresses the
origin of SUnya-zero, published-most probably in an Indian Journal-in
the sixties ?

Jogesh Panda




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jun 10 21:07:34 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 23:07:34 +0200
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039741.23782.14284714019300319971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmania wrote:

>So, the data is 'reconciled' into a pre-supposed migrationist hypothesis!.
>If this aint retrofitting, what is ?

Isn't it fairly normal in all branches of science and scholarship to
reinterpret material in the light of new material? It is pretty evident to
me that we have to assign certain weights to evidence. Some evidence is more
fundamental than other. In the case of the migration theory, I, for one,
would regard the linguistic evidence as extemely important, whereas other
evidence would have to be interpreted in the light of the linguistic
evidence. The migration/invasion theory is basic, other evidence deals
rather with exactly HOW things happened. In other words, I don't doubt the
migration theory, but I am quite open as to how things may have happened.

>Actually, this is "standard operating procedure" of invasion/migration
>theorists :  Presuppose a invasion/migration first , and then proceed to
>interpret the data to fit it.

As for presuppositions: I have recently read books by Shrikant Talageri and
D. K. Sethna. Both make a very strong point about the social and political
unsuitability of the migration theory. It is obvious that the "indigenists"
have just as strong, if not stronger, pre-suppositions as the migrationists.
In fact, based on material I have gone through recently, I could easily
maintain that the indigenist theory is politically motivated. (Which, by the
way, does not mean that its followers don't believe passionately in it).

Now, we can either discuss pre-suppositions, or we can discuss the written
and archaeological material at hand. I suggest we stick to the latter.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Jun 11 12:06:29 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 08:06:29 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV/retro
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980610205355.0096fc5c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <161227039754.23782.1266831362103424676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote:


> > Michael Witzel wrote:
> >Apparently they knew of bricks, maybe learned it from the (pre-)BMAC
> >cultures, before c.  2000 BC. at the northern fringes of Iran/Afghanistan.

> Unable to produce any evidence of new intrusive or different culture -
> invasion/migration theorists are now reduced to postulating
> "takeover of power"  or "learning" from pre-existing cultures !!.

First let me state very clearly that I am not committed, life or death, to
an immigration theory. As I said before, new data will change our
perception and conclusions if we are not encrusted, fanatic etc.

So, if the "anti-immigration" theorists can show me how all of the
following items emerged locally in the (North-Western) Subcontinent I am
quite willing to change my stand. This has not happened so far and the
available data speak in favor of the trickling in or immigration of a
number of Indo_Aryan clans and tribes, followed by quick acculturation and
spread of the newly emerging model all over the Panjab. (e.g., Allchin
1995, myself 1995, and many others before that)

The items I would like to see explained as local development:

- emergence of (often innovative) Old Indo-Aryan language (Vedic), while
(often archaic) Old Iranian and (in some respetcs) even more conservative
Hittite, Greek, Latin etc. are found everywhere from Afghanistan to the
Atlantic.

- emergence of IA poetry which closely follows the O.Iranian and IE
models

- emergence of the complex IA religion which is very close to the OIr.
one, down to the names of their gods and to their myths,  while there
are close relations to other IE religions and myths

- emergence of a complex system of customs, beliefs and rituals which have
their cose relations in Iran and often surprising ones in the rest of the
IE area.

- emergence of the IA type of family structure, kinship, social
organization which is close to the rest of the IE area but not to the rest
of the subcontinent

- emergence of many sets of names for animals and plants which have links
with Iran and Europe but not to the subcontinent

- and of course the often discussed question:  horses and their importance
in IE language, myth, ritual etc., while there is no *proved, tested* case
of any horses in the subcontinent before c. 1700 BC, and while the horse
does not play the same role in the most ancient Dravidian, Munda, Indus
cultures.

I probably forgot some items. But this should be enough to keep this
discussion going for one year....

> Parpola writes "The BMAC emerged as a direct continuation of
> previous cultural developments in southern Turkmenistan. Its local
> origin can be reconciled with the hypothesis of BMAC's Aryan linguistic
> affinity only by assuming that the dramatic changes in its
> socio-political structure C 1800 BC resulted from the takeover of
> power in Margiana by small groups of Aryan-speaking nomads coming
> from the North" (pg363,IndoAryans of Ancient South Asia. Ed:Erdosy ).

Hiebert, in the same vol., has provided a detailed archaeological scenario
along the same lines. Cf also Allchin 1995.

> So, the data is 'reconciled' into a pre-supposed migrationist hypothesis!.
> If this aint retrofitting, what is ?

NB: 'reconciled' is choice of (Parpola's) words only. There are clearly
imported items/features in the newly emerging BMAC which, according to
archaeologists, not Parpola and not me either, that derive from the
northern steppe belt. A re-combinated culture.

> Actually, this is "standard operating procedure" of invasion/migration
> theorists :  Presuppose a invasion/migration first , and then proceed to
> interpret the data to fit it.

First the immigration theory is not 'pre-supposed', created out of
nothing,  but built up on data
collected over  the past 150 years or so. These data would have to be
dislodged if another 'pre-supposed' (e.g. the Indian homeland theory)
should be accepted.

In any theory, one has to fit in new data (cf. also L.Fosse). If the new
data do NOT fit, and cannot be explained by clearly defined special
conditions, one has to abandon the theory. The BMAC does NOT speak against
the immigration model, on the contrary.

> Coming to Sambara's forts, maybe Witzel can explain why it cannot
> be a case of the indigenous Rgvedic aryas campaign against the Dasas.

I would say so, yes, except for "indigenous". "Local", yes, after initial
trickling in and acculturation. But as usual, the case is more
complicated. NEVER simple solutions... (And as for Daasa, that needs another
investigation, because of the  confusion between real and mythological
enemies, see below. Parpola uses the word in serveral senses).

> Because - as Parpola states "Bactria and Margiana is precisely the region
> where the Dasas, Dahyus and Panis are placed in Old Persian, Greek and Latin
> sources" (pg367)

That also is correct. The Dahai, Parnoi  (O.Persian Dahyu is more complex)
are placed at the northern fringes of Iran/Afghanistan.

As I have explained already in the Erdosy vol. (and as Parpola has done in
1988, and others before him, e.g. Hillebrandt in 1907, a man who was
against all racial interpretations!), these are reminiscences of earlier
locations, along with others such as the Rasaa/Sindhu complex
(real & mythological).

It is a well known fact that mythological figures & people serve for
denigration, as mentioned just now (by L. Fosse I think) with ref. to
Indonesia... Examples abound. From this century: The Foreign Devils, The
Hun, The Great/Small Shaitan...

The boundary line between mythologcial and real enemies in the RV has
long been recognized, long before the present "Aryan" discussion had
begun both in India and on this list.

The situation, thus, is --as always-- more complex. There are, due to
acculturation, from the earliest parts of the RV onwards, "aarya" with
local, non-IA names (bRbu etc,) and there are others with such names who
are not included in the aarya groups, such as Pramaganda of the KiikaTa
people south of the (later) Kuruksetra area...

S'ambara is one such case. His name could perhaps be IA (though the -b-
would be a problem), but has no good etymology. His father, if indeed
that is the idea, Kulitara, could also pass as (half) of an IA name.

But he always is listed next to demons such as S'uSNa, Arbuda, Pipru, etc.
His mountain forts put him into the Afhanistan hills (I would not know of
a location for Sub-Himalayan forts at that time and the Vedic people do
not go there: they barter their Soma from local mountain people...).

All of this needs much more space. And I do not have the time now.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Thu Jun 11 16:45:18 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 08:45:18 -0800
Subject: [Q] Mar. mo.dasii (cholera)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.980611130528.50913E-100000@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227039763.23782.14237917425034071483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I once heard a paper by Prof. John Norris (retired from the Department of History of Medicine at my university, the University of British Columbia) that dealt with some aspect of the history of spread of cholera. He mentioned,on the basis of secondary sources (since Norris is neither a linguist nor an indologist) "mort-de-chien" as coming from Marathi mo.dasii. The impression I got from the rest of the points he made, however, was that the Marathi word itself was borrowed from an earlier Romance language expression meaning 'death (= a form of death) from China,' something like mort de Chine. In other words, we probably two different corruptions of an earlier European language expression, one in Marathi and another in later European sources. Linguistically too, I could not see a good etymology for mo.da;sii in Marathi. 
 (As a Maratha, I would never admit that cholera began its career in Maharashtra!).

I have not seen Prof. Norris for several years now. The UBC campus directory gives the following ways of contacting him: tel 822-3610, fax 733-5123, e <jnorris at unixg.ubc.ca. The country code for Canada is 1, area code for Vancouver/UBC 604. 

J.T. Molesworth's Marathi-English Dictionary (p. 669, right-hand column, according to the reprint edn 1975, ed. N.G. Kalelkar) gives mo.dava;sii as a variant for mo.da;sii (Dominik, it seems to me that you should have ";s" where you have "s" in your transcription).  It further informs that "the city and province of Rajapur and the country southwards" was especially the seat of either mo.da;sii  or  its variant mo.dava;sii. 

Molesworth suggests a connection with Marathi root mo.d (infinitive form customarily given as mo.da.ne) 'to twist, to break.' Although I do not specialize in Marathi etymologies, I consider this derivation unlikely. 

 -- ashok aklujkar

At 13:07 +0100 11-06-98, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>Colleagues,
>
>A Marathi word for Cholera seems to be "mo.dasii".  This was picked up by
>the Portuguese in the sixteenth century, and got into circulation in
>European sources as "mordisheen" and similar words (including
>"mort-de-chien", which seems very apt!).
>
>I've looked in the obvious places (CDIAL, Mayrhofer, various Prakrit and
>Pali dicts.), but can find no history for the word.
>
>Can anyone help?
>
>All the best,
>Dominik
>
>--
>Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
>Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
>  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
>Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
>London NW1 2BE, England.
>
>First Rule of History:
>  History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other.




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 11 17:36:18 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 10:36:18 -0700
Subject: [Q] Mar. mo.dasii (cholera)
Message-ID: <161227039767.23782.6789721773358106484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> wrote:
>[snip]
>By extension, the same verb is used to describe cramps of the >
stomach : po.taat ka.l mo.da.ne.  I suppose the word mo.dasii is
related > to stomach cramps in the course of Cholera.
> [snip]

I don't know if the following are relevant to the symptoms of cholera:

1. mod.avi, mod.ave small pimple on the face (Kannad.a)
2.mor.s- (mor.y-) to have foot-and-mouth disease (Toda). mut.an:ki
bed-ridden person (Tamil); mut.akkam being crippled by paralysis
(Tamil); mud.ucu, mud.u~cu to contract, shrivel (Telugu)

Regards,
kalyanaraman
==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jun 11 15:02:14 1998
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 11:02:14 -0400
Subject: [Q] Mar. mo.dasii (cholera)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.980611130528.50913E-100000@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227039759.23782.14541817021916007555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just some speculative comments.  The word mo.dasii is probably related to
the verb mo.da.ne "to break, to be broken" in Marathi.  A fractured hand
can be described as: haat mo.dalaa.  But when one feels muscle fatigue
during flu, one can say anga mo.duun aale aahe : lit. "my body is all
broken up."  By extension, the same verb is used to describe cramps of the
stomach : po.taat ka.l mo.da.ne.  I suppose the word mo.dasii is related
to stomach cramps in the course of Cholera.
                                                Madhav Deshpande

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> Colleagues,
>
> A Marathi word for Cholera seems to be "mo.dasii".  This was picked up by
> the Portuguese in the sixteenth century, and got into circulation in
> European sources as "mordisheen" and similar words (including
> "mort-de-chien", which seems very apt!).
>
> I've looked in the obvious places (CDIAL, Mayrhofer, various Prakrit and
> Pali dicts.), but can find no history for the word.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> All the best,
> Dominik
>
> --
> Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
> Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
>   the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
> Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
> London NW1 2BE, England.
>
> First Rule of History:
>   History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other.
>




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Thu Jun 11 11:26:01 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 12:26:01 +0100
Subject: Announcing CSX+
Message-ID: <161227039750.23782.12393126499203853415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subscribers to the Conv-dev mailing list on transliteration of
Indian languages <conv-dev at elot.gr> may already be aware that there
is a proposal to implement a new computer encoding (character set)
for use with material in such languages. The new encoding is to be
based on the existing CSX character set, which is probably the most
widely-used such encoding, and has been dubbed "CSX+". The intention
is that it should be as nearly as possible compatible with CSX, so
that most CSX users could start using CSX+ fonts and notice no
difference; however, it will extend the CSX set with extra
characters, in particular those required by the draft ISO standard
which the Conv-dev discussion has produced. This amounts to an
attempt to provide the most useful possible set of "Indian" accented
characters, and I should welcome input from others to ensure that
the best choice is made.

Documents presenting the draft standard for transliteration can be
seen at:

  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trdcd1a.htm

Those interested in contributing to a debate on what CSX+ ought to
be like should read on; others can simply await future announcements
with interest or apathy, as appropriate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

                               CSX+

1.  The two attachments to this email message present two different
"views" of a proposed CSX+ standard, one ordered by character
sequence, the other alphabetically by character name. The remainder
of this document consists of an explanation of how the proposal has
been arrived at. Earlier drafts were seen by and discussed with
Dominik Wujastyk, Anshuman Pandey, Anthony Stone and John Clews; I
am grateful to them for their comments.

2.  The underlying philosophy is that CSX+ ought to be a strict
superset of CSX, so that "upgrading" is painless; CSX text should
appear unchanged in CSX+ fonts. Specifically, (A) there should be no
changes to the position of existing CSX characters; (B) no existing
CSX character should be deleted; (C) no attempt should be made to
map draft ISO standard usage on to the encoding: "r-underdot-macron"
will appear in the same place in CSX+ as it does in CSX, even though
the draft standard states that the preferred usage for Sanskrit long
vocalic "r" is "r-underring-macron". (The form with underring will
also be made available, of course.)

3.  A single compromise has proved to be necessary, in the area of
aim (A) above. CSX, which came into being in the MS-DOS era, uses
position 160 (decimal) for a-acute. That slot on modern PCs is
sacred to the non-breaking space; the character has thus become
inaccessible to many people, and will have to be moved to a new
position. Fortunately, this one incompatible change will not
inconvenience the majority of users: documents containing Vedic are
likely to be the biggest problem. (The Macintosh uses slot 202 for
its non-breaking space, and this too will be held vacant.)

4.  Strictly speaking, a-acute is not part of the CSX character set,
but belongs to the PC's code page 437, along with other "European"
accented characters that CSX borrows. If we add all these characters
to those officially defined by CSX, and also add in the three extra
"Indian" characters that have become widely available in recognised
character positions (171 a-macron-tilde, 172 i-macron-tilde, 216
u-macron-tilde), we find that 91 positions in the upper half of the
encoding are already occupied, leaving 37 vacant for new characters.
However, to keep both Mac and PC non-breaking space free, this has
to be reduced to 35.

5.  The draft ISO standard requires the following 24 characters that
do not form part of CSX. Only lower-case versions are shown, and
where the standard proposes a "productive" usage (e.g. "tilde over a
vowel means nasalised vowel"), only forms known to occur are
included (so no "e-macron-tilde"):

   ae-macron
   u-breve
   r-underring
   r-underring-acute
   r-underring-grave
   r-underring-macron
   r-underring-macron-acute
   l-underring
   l-underring-acute
   l-underring-macron
   e-macron
   o-macron
   r-underdieresis
   y-overdot
   r-breve
   m-candrabindu
   n-breve
   t-underbar
   k-underbar
   kh-underbar
   g-overdot
   c-circumflex
   h-underbar
   h-underbreve

Note that the precise *form* of some of these may still change; for
example, there has been a recent proposal to replace r-underdieresis
by z-underdot. But such changes will not affect the number of
necessary new characters, and the final form of the draft submission
to ISO should be available very soon.

6.  I would wish to add M-overdot, since the draft standard now
recommends m-overdot for anusvara, and it would otherwise become the
only "core" character without a capital equivalent. I would also
wish to add the following, as being centrally useful characters in
any text font: sterling (which was normally available in CSX fonts),
quotedblleft, quotedblright, endash, emdash. This exercise uses up
all but five of the "spare" character positions. ("Smart quotes"
cannot, alas, be made to work in Word, since the program assumes
that the characters in question are located at specific positions,
and none of the positions in question is free for this use.)

7.  There is a single "European" accented character, y-dieresis,
that CSX borrows from code page 437 but that is not used in any
Indian or European language. (It was probably a mistaken version of
"Dutch y", written "ij".) I have eliminated it to save one more
slot: thus six slots are available for further new characters.

8.  It seems to me that the best use for these and any other spare
slots that we can manufacture is to assign them to capitalised
versions of those new characters with the most need for capital
forms. I have tentatively given these first six to AE-macron,
E-macron, O-macron, Kh-underbar, G-overdot and C-circumflex.

9.  A case could perhaps be made to eliminate some of the more
outr'e Sanskrit characters, if there are other genuinely worthy
claims to their slots. But it is clear that the room for manoeuvre
is very slight, so good cases would have to be made.

10. I am aware of one further problem, which affects character 183
in some of Gates's operating systems. There appears to be no
documentation of this feature, so I describe it as well as I can: in
Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 the character at position 183 of a font
is made inaccessible to the user if the font uses a non-Windows
encoding, apparently in order to simplify slightly the task of
displaying "soft spaces" in Word. In CSX+ this makes the character
i-macron-acute unavailable to users of these systems. It should be
said that exactly the same applies to existing CSX fonts, and that
as far as I know nobody has ever even noticed the problem; in
addition, I gather that in Windows NT the difficulty does not arise,
suggesting that perhaps newer Microsoft systems will act more
politely in this area. I shall try to find out how Windows 98 will
behave. I do not favour a change to the CSX(+) character set to get
round the problem, but it might be necessary to think up some way of
making i-macron-acute available to those who need it and cannot
currently use it.

10. I would welcome comments on these proposals. However, there are
real constraints on the time that can be spent on a discussion, so I
hope it can be brisk and focused. I should say that it would be very
hard to persuade me to make major changes in the areas covered by
paragraphs 2-5 above; most useful would be advice on which
characters ought to win the scramble for the last few places. I
shall place a copy of this message on Conv-dev also, but I suggest
that discussion takes place on Indology <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>.
I shall be happy to do a reasonable amount of message-forwarding for
Conv-dev members who do not subscribe to Indology.

11. After, say, two weeks of discussion, I shall finalise the CSX+
standard and build a set of fonts to implement it: virtual fonts for
TeX, and Type 1 PostScript and TrueType fonts for PCs and
Macintoshes. (I do not have access to good Mac font software, and
would only be willing to make a Mac translation of one of the five
typefaces that I shall build for the PC: would anyone else like to
volunteer to do the job?) The fonts should be available within a
matter of a few days once the standard is agreed. As time permits I
shall also try to produce programs to handle conversion of text in
other encodings to CSX+.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html


# CSX+ encoding for mkt1font and vpl2vpl
#
# Extended version of CSX (Classical Sanskrit eXtended encoding)
# for the representation of Indian languages in Roman script
#
# CSX+ aims to be downward compatible with CSX, save for moving aacute
# away from the slot (decimal 160) used as non-breaking space on PCs.
# It also seeks to implement the (draft) ISO/TC46/SC2 standard, while
# retaining a useful set of European accented characters and adding
# dashes and directional double quotes.


128	C cedilla
129	u dieresis
130	e acute
131	a circumflex
132	a dieresis
133	a grave
134	a ring
135	c cedilla
136	e circumflex
137	e dieresis
138	e grave
139	i dieresis
140	i circumflex
141	i grave
142	A dieresis
143	A ring
144	E acute
145	ae
146	AE
147	o circumflex
148	o dieresis
149	o grave
150	u circumflex
151	u grave
152	ae macron		# Was y dieresis in CSX
153	O dieresis
154	U dieresis
155	u breve			# Was cent in CSX
156	sterling
157	r underring		# Was yen in CSX
158	a acute
159	r underbar
160	space			# Non-breaking space on PC: was a acute in CSX
161	i acute
162	o acute
163	u acute
164	n tilde
165	N tilde
166	l tilde
167	m overdot
168	amacron breve
169	imacron breve
170	umacron breve
171	amacron tilde
172	imacron tilde
173	n underbar
174	runderring macron	# Was guillemotleft in CSX
175	l underring		# Was guillemotright in CSX
176	lunderring macron
177	runderring acute
178	runderring grave
179	runderringmacron acute
180	lunderring acute
181	amacron acute
182	amacron grave
183	imacron acute
184	imacron grave
185	e macron
186	o macron
187	r underdieresis
188	y overdot
189	umacron acute
190	umacron grave
191	r breve
192	M overdot
193	m candrabindu
194	t underbar
195	E macron
196	O macron
197	n breve
198	runderdot acute
199	runderdot grave
200	K h			# Overwritten by next definition
200	Kh underbar
201	k underbar
202	space			# Non-breaking space on Macintosh
203	AE macron
204	k h			# Overwritten by next definition
204	kh underbar
205	g overdot
206	c circumflex
207	runderdotmacron acute
208	a tilde
209	i tilde
210	u tilde
211	e tilde
212	o tilde
213	e breve
214	o breve
215	l underbar
216	umacron tilde
217	G overdot
218	C circumflex
219	h underbar
220	h underbreve
221	endash
222	emdash
223	quotedblleft
224	a macron
225	germandbls
226	A macron
227	i macron
228	I macron
229	u macron
230	U macron
231	r underdot
232	R underdot
233	runderdot macron
234	Runderdot macron
235	l underdot
236	L underdot
237	lunderdot macron
238	Lunderdot macron
239	n overdot
240	N overdot
241	t underdot
242	T underdot
243	d underdot
244	D underdot
245	n underdot
246	N underdot
247	s acute
248	S acute
249	s underdot
250	S underdot
251	quotedblright
252	m underdot
253	M underdot
254	h underdot
255	H underdot

# Alphabetical index of characters contained in proposed CSX+
# character set

A dieresis		142
A macron		226
A ring			143
AE 			146
AE macron		203
C cedilla		128
C circumflex		218
D underdot		244
E acute			144
E macron		195
G overdot		217
H underdot		255
I macron		228
Kh underbar		200
L underdot		236
Lunderdot macron	238
M overdot		192
M underdot		253
N overdot		240
N tilde			165
N underdot		246
O dieresis		153
O macron		196
R underdot		232
Runderdot macron	234
S acute			248
S underdot		250
T underdot		242
U dieresis		154
U macron		230
a acute			158
a circumflex		131
a dieresis		132
a grave			133
a macron		224
a ring			134
a tilde			208
ae 			145
ae macron		152
amacron acute		181
amacron breve		168
amacron grave		182
amacron tilde		171
c cedilla		135
c circumflex		206
d underdot		243
e acute			130
e breve			213
e circumflex		136
e dieresis		137
e grave			138
e macron		185
e tilde			211
emdash 			222
endash 			221
g overdot		205
germandbls 		225
h underbar		219
h underbreve		220
h underdot		254
i acute			161
i circumflex		140
i dieresis		139
i grave			141
i macron		227
i tilde			209
imacron acute		183
imacron breve		169
imacron grave		184
imacron tilde		172
k underbar		201
kh underbar		204
l tilde			166
l underbar		215
l underdot		235
l underring		175
lunderdot macron	237
lunderring acute	180
lunderring macron	176
m candrabindu		193
m overdot		167
m underdot		252
n breve			197
n overdot		239
n tilde			164
n underbar		173
n underdot		245
o acute			162
o breve			214
o circumflex		147
o dieresis		148
o grave			149
o macron		186
o tilde			212
quotedblleft 		223
quotedblright 		251
r breve			191
r underbar		159
r underdieresis		187
r underdot		231
r underring		157
runderdot acute		198
runderdot grave		199
runderdot macron	233
runderdotmacron acute	207
runderring acute	177
runderring grave	178
runderring macron	174
runderringmacron acute	179
s acute			247
s underdot		249
space 			160		# Non-breaking space on PC
space 			202		# Non-breaking space on Macintosh
sterling 		156
t underbar		194
t underdot		241
u acute			163
u breve			155
u circumflex		150
u dieresis		129
u grave			151
u macron		229
u tilde			210
umacron acute		189
umacron breve		170
umacron grave		190
umacron tilde		216
y overdot		188




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Jun 11 12:07:57 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 13:07:57 +0100
Subject: [Q] Mar. mo.dasii (cholera)
Message-ID: <161227039757.23782.11165642516950560116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Colleagues,

A Marathi word for Cholera seems to be "mo.dasii".  This was picked up by
the Portuguese in the sixteenth century, and got into circulation in
European sources as "mordisheen" and similar words (including
"mort-de-chien", which seems very apt!).

I've looked in the obvious places (CDIAL, Mayrhofer, various Prakrit and
Pali dicts.), but can find no history for the word.

Can anyone help?

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.

First Rule of History:
  History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other.




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Thu Jun 11 12:29:57 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 13:29:57 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039752.23782.1766730255569346871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Further remarks on Michael Witzel, who wrote on Wed, 10 Jun 1998:

>> Quite another thing which must have been around but was not referred to
>> is the iSTakA or brick (or is there another RV-ic word referring to
>> it?).

>But there is alrady Iranian (Avest.) is'tiia, from the same root...
>Apparently they knew of bricks, maybe learned it from the (pre-)BMAC
>cultures, before c.  2000 BC. at the northern fringes of Iran/Afghanistan.
>Note the two separate formations (perhaps, also cf. Tocharian izcem).

In any case, the Rgvedic poets did - apparently - not refer to a brick, neither
one for daily use, nor one for ritual purposes. Only the latter 'omission'
could perhaps be explained with reference to their association with the Hotr-
function.
As for word-history and etymology, is'tiia occurs only in young Avestan
(according to both Bartholomae and Mayrhofer) and in "altpersisch" (according
to Mayrhofer), i.e. in the cuneiform inscriptions from ca. 520 B.C. onwards.
Ritualistic, intra-vedic etymology of the Yajurvedic iSTikA/iSTakA seems
perspicuous, but Iranian terms are difficult to fit in, point to an older form
with a different but problematic etymology. Primacy of ritualistic term of the
Yajurveda is of course also problematic: why would the Iranians borrow it in a
time when they must already have been acquainted with the object?

>> But an iSTakA having technical
>> links with the Harappan culture appears soon after the RV in the YVic
>> texts and was used in the Agnicayana (cf. Romila Thapar in Staal's Agni,
>> vol. 2).

>They did not take the closely related Iranian evidence into account...
>Not everything must come from Harappa... (Staal now has a paper, forthc.,
>which takes note of the Avestan evidence).

Interesting. But, whatever the Iranian connections, the Harappan ruins were
still around (perhaps directly referred to by the RV poets), and presumably
also some local people who had not yet forgotten the technique of burning
bricks (cf. the acculturation), though they apparently could not get organized
any more to build monumental constructions like in the Sarasvati-Indus civ.

JH




From Sreenivasa.Nittala at BLR.SNI.DE  Thu Jun 11 11:08:09 1998
From: Sreenivasa.Nittala at BLR.SNI.DE (Sreenivasa Nittala)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 16:38:09 +0530
Subject: Chatterji article
Message-ID: <161227039747.23782.13124734567664859639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am not aware of this particular article. However, I am aware of a very useful and extremely good book that addresses this topic. The author traces various origins including the "Sutrya Siddhanta", etc. He weaves an interesting description around the ancient philosophical expositions and quite interestingly relates to the psyche of Indian Scientists : Ramanujan, Raman, Chandrasekhar, George Sudarshan.


It is : 

--- Anil Kumar Sarkar, "ZERO : Its Role and Prospects in Indian Thought"., South Asia Publishers, New Delhi.

I can give complete details if you are interested. This book is very much in print. I myself have a copy.

I hope this has been useful.

Best Regards,
Sreenivasa

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sreenivasa Subramanya Sharma Nittala

Associate Consultant                    |       Postgraduate Student (Part Time)
Siemens Information Systems Ltd.        |       Dept. of Computer Science & Engg.
B-8, Jungpura B,                                |       Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi
Mathura Road, New Delhi 110 014         |       New Delhi 110 016
INDIA.                                  |       INDIA.
Email: Sreenivasa.Nittala at blr.sni.de    |
Tel. : +91-11-431 7448 / 1959           |
Fax : +91-11-431 5674                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

-----Original Message-----
From:   Jogesh Panda [SMTP:Pandanet at WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
Sent:   Thursday, June 11, 1998 4:49 AM
To:     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject:        Chatterji article

Anyone knows about a Suniti Kumar Chatterji article that addresses the
origin of SUnya-zero, published-most probably in an Indian Journal-in
the sixties ?

Jogesh Panda
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From jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK  Thu Jun 11 15:39:52 1998
From: jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK (John Richards)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 16:39:52 +0100
Subject: Announcing CSX+
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980611122409.17088A-300000@taurus.cus.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227039761.23782.1909899989809795429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Smith writes

> Subscribers to the Conv-dev mailing list on transliteration of
> Indian languages <conv-dev at elot.gr> may already be aware that there
> is a proposal to implement a new computer encoding (character set)
> for use with material in such languages. The new encoding is to be
> based on the existing CSX character set, which is probably the most
> widely-used such encoding, and has been dubbed "CSX+". The intention
> is that it should be as nearly as possible compatible with CSX, so
> that most CSX users could start using CSX+ fonts and notice no
> difference; however, it will extend the CSX set with extra
> characters, in particular those required by the draft ISO standard
> which the Conv-dev discussion has produced. This amounts to an
> attempt to provide the most useful possible set of "Indian" accented
> characters, and I should welcome input from others to ensure that
> the best choice is made.
-------------------------------
> 10. I would welcome comments on these proposals. However, there are
> real constraints on the time that can be spent on a discussion, so I
> hope it can be brisk and focused. I should say that it would be very
> hard to persuade me to make major changes in the areas covered by
> paragraphs 2-5 above; most useful would be advice on which
> characters ought to win the scramble for the last few places. I
> shall place a copy of this message on Conv-dev also, but I suggest
> that discussion takes place on Indology <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>.
> I shall be happy to do a reasonable amount of message-forwarding for
> Conv-dev members who do not subscribe to Indology.
>
> 11. After, say, two weeks of discussion, I shall finalise the CSX+
> standard and build a set of fonts to implement it: virtual fonts for
> TeX, and Type 1 PostScript and TrueType fonts for PCs and
> Macintoshes. (I do not have access to good Mac font software, and
> would only be willing to make a Mac translation of one of the five
> typefaces that I shall build for the PC: would anyone else like to
> volunteer to do the job?) The fonts should be available within a
> matter of a few days once the standard is agreed. As time permits I
> shall also try to produce programs to handle conversion of text in
> other encodings to CSX+.

I am sure we have all used CSX fonts and benefited from having even a
provisional "standard", but that the "definitive" Indology character
set should necessarily be based on the present CSX is perhaps not
quite so obvious. It has had the advantage of a certain quasi official
seal of approval, and there have been enough implementations of the
CSX configuration to make it quite widespread - in the still very
limited circle of computer-literate Indologists. It MAY be that a
further refinement of the CSX allocations is the right way forward,
but there are also strong arguments AGAINST it.

Is it right, primarily, for the English-speaking scholars of the
present generation of Indologists to tie the future of Indology fonts
to what suits US very well, but not others. The CSX font has moved all
the accented characters of other European languages off their
traditional locations - which makes the effective use of a CSX font by
speakers of languages other than English a major problem. It is not
that there is no ROOM for the accented characters. They have just been
shunted aside out of the way as unimportant in a rather blythely
cavalier fashion. I do think that before we perpetuate this injustice,
we should think carefully whether it is really necessary and
justified. In many ways, the Nina 1.0 font, although itself neither
beautiful nor bug-free is IMO a better allocation of characters.
Traditional accented characters are left in their accustomed
positions, and can therefore be used equally conveniently by both
English-speakers and others alike. Surely that is preferable to a font
that can ONLY be used satisfactorily by English-speakers.

Although English-speaking myself, and myself quite content with the
CSX layout for my own use, I would personally, advocate that any
future attempt to arrive at a true "standard" for an Indology font
should have EVERYONE'S convenience in mind. I think it is more
important to arrive at a good and just final solution than to arrange
a "quick fix" for just Anglo-American convenience. An extended
Classical Sanskrit eXtended will condemn non-English speakers to keep
changing font every time they want to revert to commentary in their
own languages. Would the Anglo-American fraternity be happy with this,
if the boot were on the other foot?

I dare say the result is effectively a foregone conclusion (unless a
good number of other Indologists take the same line!), but I would not
like the above point to be passed over simply by default.

John Richards
Stackpole Rectory, Pembroke, UK
jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk
http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Thu Jun 11 16:01:46 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 17:01:46 +0100
Subject: Announcing CSX+
In-Reply-To: <000001bd954f$2d89c300$fc13989e@elidor>
Message-ID: <161227039765.23782.15897299946864465203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, John Richards wrote:

> ...

> It MAY be that a
> further refinement of the CSX allocations is the right way forward,
> but there are also strong arguments AGAINST it.

I tried to make my original posting reasonably brief. Perhaps it was too
brief.

The reason for staying with CSX and trying to extend it, rather than
starting from scratch with some new, improved encoding, is because CSX is
widely used, not because it is in some sense "good". It isn't good. It's
inelegant, illogical and out-of-date; but large bodies of text exist in it
*now*, and many systems have been converted to use it *now*, and it is
simply practical to start where we are, not where we might more suitably
be.

To respond to the main specific point: in historical fact, CSX has not
"moved all the accented characters of other European languages off their
traditional locations". CSX is based precisely on the standard locations
for European accented characters as they stood when it was devised. It is
Microsoft that made the incompatible change.

I hold no brief for CSX. Indeed,I regard all these 8-bit character sets
for Indian languages in Roman script as temporary evils. I hope in a few
years we shall all be using Unicode or something similar (an improved
ISCII, for instance). But in the meantime it would be useful at least to
have all the accented characters we actually need.

If people wish to discuss the merits of CSX as a starting-point I cannot
stop them, but I shall not join further in the discussion. An extension of
CSX is what is on offer, not a brand new start, and I would like to
encourage people to check the details of what is proposed and see if it
contains the characters they want to see.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Fri Jun 12 13:27:28 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 07:27:28 -0600
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039769.23782.14103248687129162696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My thanks to Rolf Heiner Koch,  Devakkonda Venkata Narayana Sarma, Ashok
Aklujkar, and Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian for their helpful leads,
numbered below.  But first, if I may  reframe the query:

Given the centrality of yoga in South Asian religious practice--with ample
visual evidence for its practice already in the IVC, a full millenium
before Patanjali's sutras--isn't it curious that the yoga-paTTa doesn't
appear more frequently than it does in Indian art?  With the single
exception of the north torana at Sanchi, I don't believe it occurs anywhere
in Buddhist or Jain contexts, for example, despite the ubiquity of
glorified meditator icons in both traditions.

For the record, that one exception is a depiction of the future Buddha as
the tapasvin father of the _unicorn boy_ Rishi-Shringa.  Unfortunately
(Rolf Koch), the corresponding text, Alambusaa-jataka No. 523, does not
mention the yoga-patta.  As translated by E.B. Cowell (1869, vol _ [?], p.
79), this is all that's said:
        _Once upon a time in the reign of Brahmadatta in Benares, the
Bodhisatta was born of a brahmin family in the kingdom of Kaasi, and when
of age he became proficient in all liberal arts, and adopted the ascetic
life he lived on wild berries and roots in a forest home.  Now a certain
doe in the brahmin's mingeling-place ate grass and drank water mingled with
his semen, and was so much enamoured of him that she became pregnant and
henceforth ever resorted to the spot near the  hermitage....  By and bye
the doe gave birth to a man child..._

With thanks to Prof. Aklujkar, here's the M.rcchaka.tika's opening lines (a
la van Buitenen):
        May Siva's Meditation favor thee,
        When doubling up the snake that spans his knees
        He folds His legs in the Paryanka Seat--...

And yes, Gopinatha Rao does supply agamic descriptions (and photographs) of
Siva-Dakshinamurti, complete with a yogapatta, thank you, Rama.
Yoga-Narasimha images, also concentrated in South India, were better known
to me, ever since I realized they are alluded to in a mid-7th c. visual
charade [an _antaraalaapa-prahelikaa_ according to the alamkaarika's] at
the lower center of the Great Tapas Relief at Mamallapuram. [cf. p. 229 of
my recently published article, _The Mamallapuram Prasasti: a Panegyric in
Figures_, _Artibus Asiae_ vol. 57,3/4 (1997): 189-241].  In other words, I
argue, that the now-headless tapasvin seated with the aid of a yoga-pata
before the Visnu-vimaana, was intended to be a portrait of Pallava king
Narasimhavarman I, his identity coded by an attribute already a commonplace
association with his name-sake deity.

Finally, there is the case of Ayyappa, and again, thank you Sharma-ji, for
a reminder of an image I already possessed examples of but hadn't thought
of in this context.

So, in brief--here's my query once again, risking overstatement for the
sake of eliciting further speculation and textual leads, hopefully.  Given
the contexts cited above, might the yoga-patta be, in effect, a visual
equivalent of the black-belt in the further Eastern martial arts
traditions?  Siva, Narasimha, and Ayyappa are demon-destroyers, now
pacified.  Thus, might the yoga-patta be a token of necessity for
restraint?  And likewise, in the context of heroic continence called for in
the face of an apsaras Alambusaa's seductive wiles?

Thus, the yoga-patta seems to be more than simply an aid for protracted
sitting in the lotus position.  Like the black-belt of a judo master, it
proclaims capacity for great exertion of violent or sexual prowess, but
held in check.  That's why I'm wondering if there's a much more prosaic
explanation I'm ignorant of, as a non-practioner of martial-yoga/tapas,
myself.

Hoping others shares of you share my interest in this thread,
Michael Rabe
Saint Xavier University
SAIC, Chicago
[Go Bulls!]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. >To a great part the stories of Sanchi and Bharhut
>are already identified: they reflect certain
>Jatakas and similar Buddhist tales. There you will
>find the literal description of what you call
>yoga-straps.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2. >If you can get hold of a calender depicting Lord Ayyappa you
>can easily know what it is.
>regards,
>sarma.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
3. >I believe in a naandii verse of the play M.rcchaka.tika there is a
>reference to yoga-pa.tta. If that is not the case, I will write again. I do
>not have the text handy. -- ashok aklujkar
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
4. >I missed the original question, there are also sculptures of Narasimha
>and Dakshinamurti with the yogapaTTa, though rare. There is a brief
>discussion of the Elements of Hindu Iconography, by T. A. Gopinatha Rao
>Vol II, Part I about dakshinamurti with yogapaTTa (page 284-286). I
>believe Vol I, part I has all the relevant Sanskrit sources. You may
>want to look at all 4 volumes
>to see if he has one about Narasimha also.
>Rama.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[& my original query]
>>Friends,
>>A fellow-instructor at The School of the Art
>Institute of Chicago--someone
>>who has been practicing ashtangi-yoga far longer
>than Madonna, I might
>>add--is currently researching the iconography of
>yoga-straps in Indian art
>>and contemporary meditational practice.  Though I
>am able to direct him to
>>numerous visual occurences instances of the motif
>[from the North torana at
>>Sanchi to the 16th c.Caurapanchashika mss.
>illuminations] neither of us
>>have been able to locate any textual references
>to this accouterment.
>>
>>Here is Monier-Williams's citation:
>yoga-paTTa[ka] (HarSa-carita, PadmaP):
>>m. the cloth thrown over the back and knees of a
>devotee during meditation.
>>
>>And the obvious query: if any one can direct us
>to a chapter and verse in
>>either cited work, or elsewhere, we'd be much
>obliged.
>>
>>Much Thanks,
>>Michael Rabe
>>Assoc. Prof. of Art History
>>Saint Xavier University
>>&
>>The School of the Art Institute of Chicago




From jrasik at COLMEX.MX  Fri Jun 12 20:47:55 1998
From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 11:47:55 -0900
Subject: help in sanskrit translation
Message-ID: <161227039773.23782.4213306256120245924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members
I have just completed the edition and translation of an
anthology of Sanskrit lyric poetry. I found three instances
where I was not able to translate the verses. I please
request the help of the learned members to read the following
and give me any suggestions. I should be very grateful if I
can get any help.

vedaardhayaantya iva te tu yapaadi yaayaac-
zaantam rasaardha-nayanendu-vRSaakSipatram
yad-godhigaarjuna-kareNa niriikSites'min
bhuuyo bhaviSyati na jaatvabalaadi-puSpe


ciraaya khinnaz-caturo vicaarya
punaH punar yad bhavataMca naazam
vidvadbhi-rapyaaptu-mazakya-ruupam
padam kimapyaadriyataam tadantaH


ekasyaa aakRtezcaritam
prayogo no dvitiyaadeH
tasyaam roSa-samaaptir
jaataanusara mat-sakhiim dhiiraH


thanking you all

Rasik Vihari Joshi
Visiting Professor of Sanskrit
El Colegio de Mexico.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 12 23:25:45 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 16:25:45 -0700
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039775.23782.11745237075080273938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>Thus, the yoga-patta seems to be more than simply an aid for protracted
>sitting in the lotus position.

Note that in the annual upAkarma rituals (usually in the month of
SrAvaNa), the new yajnopavIta is also first wrapped around the knees in
the manner of the yoga-paTTa, before being worn over the shoulder. There
may be other mantric associations with the manner of using the
yoga-paTTa.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From d.smith at LANCASTER.AC.UK  Fri Jun 12 16:09:29 1998
From: d.smith at LANCASTER.AC.UK (DAVID SMITH)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 17:09:29 +0100
Subject: Temporary Lectureship in Buddhist Studies
Message-ID: <161227039771.23782.2062657590030558182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lancaster University

Department of Religious Studies

Temporary Lecturer in Buddhist Studies

Applications are invited for this temporary post from candidates who can

contribute to the study of Buddhism as part of an existing team of

specialists within the Department in the religions of South and East
Asia.

This post is tenable for twelve months from 1 September 1998.

Closing date for applications, 29 June 1998. Interview date will be 13
July 1998.

Further details of the above vacancies are available from
personnel at lancaster.ac.uk

Informal enquiries to Dr. Deborah Sawyer (Tel. 01524 592415 or e-mail
d.sawyer at lancaster.ac.uk).




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Sat Jun 13 08:27:54 1998
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 04:27:54 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039782.23782.14704828450571466514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On June 8, 1998,  Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: 

>Dear Colleagues: One point about the transliteration. Proto-Dravidian 
>has a retroflex fricative/frictionless continuant (Firth describes that it
is
>somewhat like the  Mideast American English r phonetically) which is 
>retained in Tamil and Malayalam. Emeneau and Burrow have 
>transcribed it a r with <two subdots>. A number of dravidian scholars 
>now use a z <subdot>, because then it matches with the other retroflexes 
>which are transliterated with a <subdot>. This symbol is not used for any 
>other phoneme in Dravidian. Please consider it. 

[Abbreviations used below: -a = above,   -b = below,  dia = diaeresis (two
dots), macr = macron]

Among the many transliterations of this letter, scholars now seem to use
three in particular: l_macr-b, r_dia-b, z_dot-b.   As well as the fricative
aspect, the Malayalam and Tamil pronunciations sound something like 'r' and
'l', respectively.    Hence z_dot-b has three advantages:   (1) dot-b
matching retroflexes, (2) z suggesting a fricative, (3) no problem about
the r/l aspect.

I should be grateful if someone could point me to the discussion we had on
this letter a year or so ago; but unless r_dia-b is thought to be
especially valuable, I shall be happy to make z_dot-b the proposal.

Tony Stone

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
Indic scripts.   
Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com                             Thinking
aloud on  transliteration:
   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Sat Jun 13 14:48:24 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 08:48:24 -0600
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039788.23782.15421212650618405836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Vidyasankar:
Thank you for this information, certainly relevant, and prompting me to ask
if there are any published commentaries on this ritual you mention.

>Note that in the annual upAkarma rituals (usually in the month of
>SrAvaNa), the new yajnopavIta is also first wrapped around the knees in
>the manner of the yoga-paTTa, before being worn over the shoulder. There
>may be other mantric associations with the manner of using the
>yoga-paTTa.
>
>Vidyasankar
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Sat Jun 13 14:58:43 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 08:58:43 -0600
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039791.23782.15786333644364430911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Given this reasoning by DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA:

>In the yoga sutras of Patanjali, AsanA which is one of the aSTAngAs
>(which are the necessary aids) of yoga, is defined as
>
>sthira-sukhamAsanaM
>
>AsanA is the one that is stable and comfortable. This will be an aid in
>allowing the sAdhakA to forget his body and loose himself in meditation.
>Yoga-paTTa seems to help in making your posture stable and comfortable.

I wonder how widespread the use of a yoga-paTTa actually is.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 13 14:49:10 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 10:49:10 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039793.23782.11283669762128949080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-13 04:29:00 EDT, stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM writes:

<< Among the many transliterations of this letter, scholars now seem to use
 three in particular: l_macr-b, r_dia-b, z_dot-b.   As well as the fricative
 aspect, the Malayalam and Tamil pronunciations sound something like 'r' and
 'l', respectively.    Hence z_dot-b has three advantages:   (1) dot-b
 matching retroflexes, (2) z suggesting a fricative, (3) no problem about
 the r/l aspect. >>

As a person who has to constantly deal with the pronunciation of this letter,
I can say the following. My name in the Tamil version has this letter. It is
transliterated in my name with "l" which is a very common practice. In my
business card, to elicit a pronunciation as close to the original as possible
from Americans, I use a nickname using "r". In my postings on Indology, I use
the scheme set up by someone as "z". Personally, I do not see any difference
between the correct pronunciation of this letter by Tamils and Malayalis.
(There are many Tamils who mispronounce it as retroflex L. However, I think we
should go by the pronunciation considered correct by the Tamils.)  Many
Malayalis and Tamils do transliterate this with "zh" which I consider to be an
arbitrary scheme.

My preference would be to stick with the transliteration scheme of the Tamil
Lexicon (which uses l_macr-b) for the following reasons.

1. There is a considerable amount of scholarly work related to Tamil where
they have used it. Even many Dravidian Linguistic Association publications
(eg. The History of the Grammatical Theories in Malayalam) use it.

2. Having two sub dots with r may lead to confusion between this letter and
the r_macr-b used in Tamil and Malayalam. In many books printed in India when
the printing is not very good the two dots merge into a macron. I have
encountered this many times.

3. Using "z" seems to be very arbitrary.

So, my vote is for l_macr-b.

Regards

S. Palaniappan




From Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH  Sat Jun 13 09:10:17 1998
From: Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Sara McClintock)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 11:10:17 +0200
Subject: Chatterji article
In-Reply-To: <357F144C.478C@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <161227039784.23782.816006875366446906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi Jogesh!

It's been a long time . . . how are you and Tom? John and I miss you a lot,
but we are enjoying our sojourn in Switzerland.

See you soon, I hope,
Sara

At 06:18 PM 6/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Anyone knows about a Suniti Kumar Chatterji article that addresses the
>origin of SUnya-zero, published-most probably in an Indian Journal-in
>the sixties ?
>
>Jogesh Panda
>
>
____________________

Sara McClintock
Section de langues et civilisations orientales
Universit? de Lausanne
email: Sara.McClintock at orient.unil.ch




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jun 13 06:26:34 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 11:26:34 +0500
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039777.23782.8180549052371550687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the yoga sutras of Patanjali, AsanA which is one of the aSTAngAs
(which are the necessary aids) of yoga, is defined as

sthira-sukhamAsanaM

AsanA is the one that is stable and comfortable. This will be an aid in
allowing the sAdhakA to forget his body and loose himself in meditation.
Yoga-paTTa seems to help in making your posture stable and comfortable.

regards,

sarma.

At 07:27 AM 6/12/98 -0600, Michaei Rabe wrote:

>So, in brief--here's my query once again, risking overstatement for the
>sake of eliciting further speculation and textual leads, hopefully.  Given
>the contexts cited above, might the yoga-patta be, in effect, a visual
>equivalent of the black-belt in the further Eastern martial arts
>traditions?  Siva, Narasimha, and Ayyappa are demon-destroyers, now
>pacified.  Thus, might the yoga-patta be a token of necessity for
>restraint?  And likewise, in the context of heroic continence called for in
>the face of an apsaras Alambusaa's seductive wiles?
>
>Thus, the yoga-patta seems to be more than simply an aid for protracted
>sitting in the lotus position.  Like the black-belt of a judo master, it
>proclaims capacity for great exertion of violent or sexual prowess, but
>held in check.  That's why I'm wondering if there's a much more prosaic
>explanation I'm ignorant of, as a non-practioner of martial-yoga/tapas,
>myself.
>
>Hoping others shares of you share my interest in this thread,
>Michael Rabe
>Saint Xavier University
>SAIC, Chicago
>[Go Bulls!]
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++
>1. >To a great part the stories of Sanchi and Bharhut
>>are already identified: they reflect certain
>>Jatakas and similar Buddhist tales. There you will
>>find the literal description of what you call
>>yoga-straps.
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>2. >If you can get hold of a calender depicting Lord Ayyappa you
>>can easily know what it is.
>>regards,
>>sarma.
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>3. >I believe in a naandii verse of the play M.rcchaka.tika there is a
>>reference to yoga-pa.tta. If that is not the case, I will write again. I do
>>not have the text handy. -- ashok aklujkar
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>4. >I missed the original question, there are also sculptures of Narasimha
>>and Dakshinamurti with the yogapaTTa, though rare. There is a brief
>>discussion of the Elements of Hindu Iconography, by T. A. Gopinatha Rao
>>Vol II, Part I about dakshinamurti with yogapaTTa (page 284-286). I
>>believe Vol I, part I has all the relevant Sanskrit sources. You may
>>want to look at all 4 volumes
>>to see if he has one about Narasimha also.
>>Rama.
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>[& my original query]
>>>Friends,
>>>A fellow-instructor at The School of the Art
>>Institute of Chicago--someone
>>>who has been practicing ashtangi-yoga far longer
>>than Madonna, I might
>>>add--is currently researching the iconography of
>>yoga-straps in Indian art
>>>and contemporary meditational practice.  Though I
>>am able to direct him to
>>>numerous visual occurences instances of the motif
>>[from the North torana at
>>>Sanchi to the 16th c.Caurapanchashika mss.
>>illuminations] neither of us
>>>have been able to locate any textual references
>>to this accouterment.
>>>
>>>Here is Monier-Williams's citation:
>>yoga-paTTa[ka] (HarSa-carita, PadmaP):
>>>m. the cloth thrown over the back and knees of a
>>devotee during meditation.
>>>
>>>And the obvious query: if any one can direct us
>>to a chapter and verse in
>>>either cited work, or elsewhere, we'd be much
>>obliged.
>>>
>>>Much Thanks,
>>>Michael Rabe
>>>Assoc. Prof. of Art History
>>>Saint Xavier University
>>>&
>>>The School of the Art Institute of Chicago

>




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jun 13 06:26:40 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 11:26:40 +0500
Subject: Itrans version 1.2b
Message-ID: <161227039779.23782.12598563665357608952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The new 1.2b version of itrans appears to be great improvement on
the earlier version. I am attaching roman transliteration file (ribhu.txt)
I typed in and the Devanagari output (ribhu.rtf), which can be viewed in
Word with sanskrit 1.2 font, in the zip file ribhu.zip.

regards,

sarma.
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From Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH  Sat Jun 13 10:06:15 1998
From: Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Sara McClintock)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 12:06:15 +0200
Subject: apologies
Message-ID: <161227039786.23782.3482006338635664378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

List members,

My apologies for sending a private message to the list as a whole. 

aha.m laje



____________________

Sara McClintock
Section de langues et civilisations orientales
Universit? de Lausanne
email: Sara.McClintock at orient.unil.ch




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 13 21:57:23 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 17:57:23 -0400
Subject: Inscriptions and Dravidian sound changes "y" > "c" and "y" >
Message-ID: <161227039796.23782.10620421738247075751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-05-28 18:11:00 EDT, you write:

<< In Tamil Nadu you hear this word pronounced both as "sei" and "cei".
 According to the above theory (if I understand it correctly), people who
 have some sort of Sanskrit background would pronounce it as "sei". If this
 is so, what is the explanation for the same verb occuring in the -c- form in
 Malayalam, a language "supposedly" developed by the Namboodhris who of
 course had a strong Sanskrit background. E.g. in Malayalam - Avan ceidhu (he
 did). >>

An exhaustive discussion of the behavior of word-initial  "c" can be found in
the article "Proto-Dravidian *c- and its Developments" by M. B. Emeneau in the
Journal of the American Oriental Society , 1988, vol. 108, p.239-68. It is an
example of true scholarship. In addition to logically presenting his
arguments, Emeneau also, based on updated evidence,  openly acknowledges
problems in views he had in the past, and accepts others' point of view.
Thus, he offers an example of genuine scholarly inquiry of the highest order.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 13 22:20:46 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 18:20:46 -0400
Subject: Theory and fact in comparative Dravidian: the case of  -y-
Message-ID: <161227039799.23782.8875060513055922615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The case of -y- offers some interesting insight into how facts and theory play
out in the field of Comparative Dravidian.  Let us consider DEDR 5352 and DEDR
5354.

DEDR 5352 Ta. vAy mouth, beak of birds, mouth as of cup, bag, ulcer, etc.,
mouthful, lip, edge, rim, edge as of knife, word, speech, hole, orifice. Ma.
vAy, vA  mouth, opening, juncture, edge of a sword. Ko. va.y (mouth of living
thing, cup, bag, pot), mouthful, rim, brink, edge (as of knife); a.ke.r va.y
other bank, other side (of road). To. po.y mouth; po.neRf- to fill to brim.
Ka. bAy(i) mouth, mouth of a vessel, bag drain, etc., head of a drum, edge of
any cutting instrument. Kod. ba.y mouth. Tu. bAyi mouth, edge of a knife,
sword, etc., opening, speech, utterance; ....Te. vAyi mouth, face, edge of any
cutting instrument; vA-konu to speak, utter, say, cry out, vAdara edge of
sword; (K) vAya blade? sharpness.....Pa. (S) vAy mouth of pot. Ga. (P.) vAy
edge of knife; (Oll.) vAsi lip...Kur. baI mouth (of man and animal), aperture
of a vessel, mouthful....Br. bA mouth, aperture, edge of a knife.

What is the reconstruction of the original form? According to an earlier
posting by Dr. Krishnamurti, " PD *c and *y fell together in most of the
languages but the distinciton is preserved by some members (particularly
Kannada). where Ka also has an intervocalic -y- (bayal) it goes to PD *y. So
Kannada holds the clue for PD reconstriction (Ta. poy = Ka. pusi <*posi 'a
lie'; PD *poc-)."

If one were to apply this principle, one would reconstruct *vAy- for DEDR 5352
rather than *vAc-. Indeed in Telugu Verbal Bases, p. 487, Krishnamurti
proposes *vAy-/*vA and not *vAc for mouth.

DEDR 5354 Ta. vAyil, vAyal, vAcal doorway, entrance, gate, place, king?s
court; vAytal doorway, entrance. Ma. vAtil id., gateway. Ko. va.l entrance
door; va.gl entrance; kava.l ground in front of house (for ka-, ? see 1376).
To. po.s entrance;  po.s-a.r (obl. po._s-a._t-) id., doorway (see 405 Ta.
Aru); poxol entrance, in song unit....Ka. bAgil, bAgal, bAkal, (inscr., Gai
221) vAkkil gate, doorway. Tu. bAkilu door, gate; bAdhaLa door. Te. vAkili
door, doorway. Kol. va.kal outside. Nk. vAkal id. Pa. vAl id., menses. Ga.
(P.) vAl outside..

In Telugu Verbal Bases, p. 33, Krishnamurti states:

"Te. -g- < PDr. *-y-; sometimes -y- itself is a weakening of older *-c-; this
development is also shared by Ta. Ma. Ka. and Tulu." What is clearly implied
here is that -g- of Telugu can be ultimately derived from PDr. *-y- in some
cases and PDr. *-c- in some cases. Not all -g-/-k- are traced to *-c-.

To show that -y- passed through the stage of -k- before becoming -g-, in
Telugu Verbal Bases, p. 34, he states:

"..-g- proceeds from an older *-y-; that -y- passed through the stage of -k-
is evident from Ta. vici (*viki) corresponding to Te. Ka. bigi < *viki <
*viyi; another striking proof of this can be found in the following etymology:
Te. vAkili doorway; Tu. bAkil; Ka. bAgil; Ta. vAyil, vAcal; Ma. vAtil (Ma. -t-
< *-c-)"

In other words, both of the following processes are possible:

(1) Te. -g-/-k- < PDr. *-y-
(2) Te. -g-/-k- < *-y- < PDr. *-c-

Krishnamurti did not offer a PDr. reconstruction for Te. vAkil in this
discussion. However, one can state that the reconstructed form should be *vAy-
or that DEDR 5354 is derived from DEDR 5352. There is ample evidence in old
Tamil literature to show that vAy not only referred to the aperture but also
door-like mechanisms like lids, and gates. In fact, Tamil Lexicon includes the
meaning "vAcal" (gate) for "vAy".

The following examples from Tamil texts clearly show the linkage between "vAy"
and "vAyil"..

 matu294   cENOn2 akaznta maTi vAy payampin2            (maturaikkAJci 294)

This can be translated as the "ensnaring pit with its covered opening, which
was dug by the person from the mountain."

AyiramkaNNOn2 arugkalac ceppu
vAy tiRantan2n2a matil aka varaippil    (cilappatikAram  14.68-69)

This can be translated as "in the area inside the rampart which looked as if
the lid of the precious container of the thousand-eyed one (Indra) had
opened".

Even more direct connection between vAy, vAyil, and vAcal are provided by the
following.

palar pukat tiRanta paku vAy vAyil                      (maNimEkalai 7.92)

This is translated as "the entrance (vAyil) with split/open door (vAy) through
which many can enter". One cannot ask for a more explicit link between vAy and
vAyil. In another text, tirumantiram, in trying to portray the human body as a
temple of worship for god, tirumUlar says,

uLLam perum kOyil Un2 uTampu Alayam
vaLLal pirAn2Arkku vAy kOpura vAcal             (tirumantiram 1823.1-2)

This can be translated as "the heart/mind is the sanctum sanctorum, body is
the temple and mouth (vAy) is the temple tower entrance (vAcal)".

That is why, traditional Tamil scholars and T. Burrow have said that vAyil is
derived from vAy. In the book, "Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics",
1968, p.79, he said, "Ta. Ma. vAy "mouth; opening of a sack, etc.", O, Ovu
"door (of a sluice)"| Ka. bAy "mouth; the mouth of a vessel, bag, etc."| Tu.
bAyi "mouth; opening"| Tod. bOyi "mouth"--Te. vAyi "id."| Kur. bai "mouth,
aperture of a vessel"| Brah. bA "mouth"|| A derivative of this word is found
in the following; Ta. vAyil "gate, doorway, entrance" | Ma. vAtil| Ka. bAgil|
Tu. bAkil| Te. vAkili "id.""

This means that having derived vAyil from vAy, we would expect the
reconstruction for both to be *vAy-.

But Kamil Zvelebil in Comparative Dravidian Phonology, p. 121, apparently by
not properly considering cases where *-y- can be the proto-Dravidian
reconstruction as discussed by Krishnamurti in Telugu Verbal Bases p.34 and
p.50, reconstructs the following for Ta. vAyil, etc.

Ta. vAyil, vAyal/vAcal, Ma. vAtil (<*vAcil), To. pO_s ?entrance?: te.vAkili,
Tu. bAkilu, Ka.bAgil, bAgal ?doorway?, Kol. Nk. vAkal ?outside?: <
*vAyil/*vAyal<*vAc& -l/*vAc &-al."

He footnotes, "According to a kind of folk-etymology, followed by some Tamil
scholars, Ta. vAyil < *ilvAy (by metathesis) "mouth of the house", i.e.,
entrance, door?."

Actually the Tamil scholars? position is better than Zvelebil?s. At least they
get the base of the word right if one accepts the views of Krishnamurti  (for
*vAy) and Burrow (for the relationship between vAy and vAyil). Even though the
Tamil scholars? attempt to interpret the suffix -il as based on the word "il"
meaning "house" may not conform to modern linguistics, it is not very
different from that of Caldwell and Gundert. Krishnamurti (Telugu Verbal
Basesp. 145) says, "Caldwell thinks with Gundert that derivative -il and -uL
are identical with free forms il house, and uL to be (p.211). This sort of
explanation is outmoded in modern linguistics unless it can be demonstrated
that  all forms with the -uL suffix have some feature of distribution
(phonemic or morphemic) which can be explained only with reference to the free
form uL- to be."  (Tamil scholars base their interpretation on medieval
commentaries of the grammar nan2n2Ul, where a similar interpretation is
offered for the word munRil.) On the other hand Zvelebil totally misses the
basic semantics of "vAyil" in spite of virtually dedicating his scholarly life
to the study of Tamil.

How does all this relate to the -y->-c-/-s- alternation in Dravidian? Since
Tamil has some cases of intervocalic k>c before a front vowel, let us assume
one might argue that the form vAcal may be derived as vAcal<*vAcil<*vAkil<
*vAyil, and that this case really does not prove anything about -y- > -c-/-s-.
But, consider Toda words po.y for mouth and po.s for entrance. Here, s in po.s
is obviously  derived from an original -y-. Similarly, the cognates Ga. (P.)
vAy edge of knife; (Oll.) vAsi lip also show -y- > -s-.

I think Zvelebil gets a glimpse of the right solution when he talks about the
Tamil development of -y- > -c- as seen in medieval inscriptions. He says "The
view of sound change as a special case of total dialect borrowing, operating
through sound substitution, sound replacement (the phone representing -y- in
one or more sub-dialects was more similar, in the other sub-dialect(s), to
-c-, than to the phone representing -y- there), seems to be particularly
applicable in this case. We should certainly like to know much more, though,
about the isoglosses of the -y- > -c- replacement in Ta. dialects." But based
on the discussion of DEDR 5352 and 5354, we see that this type of alternation
is possible in other languages in South and Central Dravidian also. So, we
should have -y-/-c- alternation in PDr which is what G. Sambasiva Rao  says.
In fact, G. Sambasiva Rao?s etymology given in "A Comparative Study of
Dravidian Noun Derivatives" (published in 1991) is as follows.

"Ta. vAy-il, ma. vAtil, Ko. vAl, To. pOs_ ?doorway?, pox-ol ?entrance?, Ka.
bAkk-il, Tu. bAk-ilu, Te. vAk-il-i, Kol. vAk-al, Pa. vA-l ?doorway?
*vAy(kk)-Vl"

In his article, "Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments", M. B. Emeneau
comments on the position of Zvelebil regarding a different problem: "Zvelebil
(1970, p.106, fn. 23) offers an explanation for ?the c-/t- alternation? which
is of this same nature (?loss of one of the components?), but finds difficulty
in the statement, since the Prague School of that period insisted that ?a
simplex [t?] phoneme? not being ?a complex [t+?] cannot lose a component,
rigidity of theory here overriding fact."

I think, the case of -y- discussed here also seems to be a case of theory
overriding fact. P. S. Subrahmanyam, who published his work on Dravidian
Phonology in 1983, seems to have accepted Zvelebil?s views in toto and has not
allowed for the possibility that  *-y- may have reflexes other than the -j- of
Kui.

In a separate posting, I shall show how even Kannada exhibits -y- > -c-/-s-
change.

Regards

S. Palaniappan




From barathi at PC.JARING.MY  Sat Jun 13 15:12:02 1998
From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 23:12:02 +0800
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039794.23782.1151112038260386273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 08:48 AM 6/13/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Vidyasankar:
>Thank you for this information, certainly relevant, and prompting me to ask
>if there are any published commentaries on this ritual you mention.
>
>>Note that in the annual upAkarma rituals (usually in the month of
>>SrAvaNa), the new yajnopavIta is also first wrapped around the knees in
>>the manner of the yoga-paTTa, before being worn over the shoulder. There
>>may be other mantric associations with the manner of using the
>>yoga-paTTa.

        There certainly are. And much more also.

        Regards

        Jayabarathi




>>
>>Vidyasankar
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Sun Jun 14 12:30:40 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 98 08:30:40 -0400
Subject: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2
Message-ID: <161227039801.23782.12696016805057916280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

> > I guess I am totally ignorant. What PIE words are unquestionably
> > connected to chariotry? [Let us concentrate on chariots in this
> > thread.]
>
> I think I gave a few last time and detailed the difficulties with them.

So not unquestionably. All we are left with are really ek'wo, yugo
etc.

> > The point is that we have fragments of other texts on horses and

There is some thing left out here. I have been unable to find a source
for my belief that some of the texts are older than Kikkuli. So
I did not wish to assert it. It is the use of chariots in war that
is definitely attested in the Old Kingdom period.

> > period<, almost 300 years before Kikkuli.
>
> Fine, but the question remains. Why Kikkuli at all? The Hittite texts are
> from a State Archive. You do not copy 'official' texts just "to have the
> book". They all (including myths) have  their purpose.

What is the purpose of an archive? Archives often contain all sorts of
documents.

>
> > And what is the evidence for claiming that Mitannis' methods were
> > better?
>
> Better? Did I say so? -- maybe different, maybe better for certain
> training situations, I vaguely remember some study to that effect:

A paranthetical remark was `(better)'.

> But (2), Avestan also has: races with not just one turn (Mitanni
> aika-vartana) in a race but more (Mit. tri-, panza-, satta-, nava-vartana)
> are also reflected, then of course requiring TWO turning points: "like
> horses wanting to reach the turning point in front (fratara- uruaEsa-)
> from the one in the back (apara- uruuaEsa-)." Vistasp Yast 29

Two turning points => 2n-1 turns for n circuits. Precisely what I said
earlier.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Sun Jun 14 12:37:50 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 98 08:37:50 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039803.23782.13306364677792254064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Among the many transliterations of this letter, scholars now seem to use
> three in particular: l_macr-b, r_dia-b, z_dot-b.   As well as the fricative
> aspect, the Malayalam and Tamil pronunciations sound something like 'r' and
> 'l', respectively.    Hence z_dot-b has three advantages:   (1) dot-b
> matching retroflexes, (2) z suggesting a fricative, (3) no problem about
> the r/l aspect.

For those who know Tamil/Malayalam, the actual symbol makes little
difference; humans can get used to almost anything. I no longer
blanch when I see z for "s.  But for others,
z-underdot may be too confusing: There have been people who thought
that the sound is a voiced retroflex >sibilant<, a sound that is rare,
and not found in modern Dravidian languages, but is reconstructed for
proto-IA. I have never heard it in any natural language, but it is not
hard to voice .s, and the result does not sound anything like the sound
in question.

I doubt that there is any easy answer. Any choice will confuse those
who have never heard it.




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 14 17:34:59 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 98 12:34:59 -0500
Subject: yoga-paTTa
In-Reply-To: <028f45723040f68UPIMSSMTPUSR06@email.msn.com>
Message-ID: <161227039828.23782.17705408377153144925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Probably you can check the Jataka 547: Vessantara
>is also sitting before his hut and wearing thuch a
>thing. It is also shown in Sanchi. Vessantara, the
>king, who gave all away, also his 2 childs and
>finally his wife. Then Indra appeared and he got
>all back. In the PTS-dictionary there you may find
>sv paTTa the term AyogapaTTa.
>Check please Coomarasvami, Bulletin of Madras
>museum, s. v.: He seems to mention the term.
>

CPD sv AyogapaTTa:  bandage, strip of cloth, referring to AyogapallatthikA
(skt. paryastikA), refers to Lueders, Bharhut und die buddh. Lit (AKM XXVI
3), p. 5, and Coomaraswamy, La sculpture de Bharhut (Annales du Musee
Guimet, Bib d'art, nouv. ser VI), fig 202.

Apologies if this repeats what has already been said -- I haven't been
paying much attention to this thread.

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Sun Jun 14 17:26:15 1998
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 98 13:26:15 -0400
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039806.23782.6276106427204486349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Rabe wrote:

> So, in brief--here's my query once again, risking overstatement for the
> sake of eliciting further speculation and textual leads, hopefully.  Given
> the contexts cited above, might the yoga-patta be, in effect, a visual
> equivalent of the black-belt in the further Eastern martial arts
> traditions?  Siva, Narasimha, and Ayyappa are demon-destroyers, now
> pacified.  Thus, might the yoga-patta be a token of necessity for
> restraint?  And likewise, in the context of heroic continence called for in
> the face of an apsaras Alambusaa's seductive wiles?

This is an interesting hypothesis, I hadn't thought of it in this
manner.

> Thus, the yoga-patta seems to be more than simply an aid for protracted
> sitting in the lotus position.  Like the black-belt of a judo master, it

The yoga paTTa is not an aid for sitting in the lotus position, I think.
In the lotus position, both knees are to touch the ground, which if
achieved (for a protracted time without developing a back pain) will
keep the back straight. The importance of keeping the back straight has
been emphasized in many upanishhads, gita etc. I forget the name of the
Asana, which the yoga paTTa helps achieve. The benefit of this Asana is
supposedly that it places stress on the lower spine. This supposedly
stimulates the kunadalini in the muladhara chakra. The other Asana which
is supposed to do this is the siddhasana. However these two asanas are
not normally recommended by yoga texts, especially for beginners.
Perhaps Iyengar has some description of this Asana or a variant of it in
his book.

[ ... ]

> >>A fellow-instructor at The School of the Art
> >Institute of Chicago--someone
> >>who has been practicing ashtangi-yoga far longer
> >than Madonna, I might
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>add--is currently researching the iconography of

This cracked me up when I read it :-). Thanks.

Rama.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 14 21:02:15 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 98 17:02:15 -0400
Subject: Stomach/womb in Dravidian and -y-/-c- alternation
Message-ID: <161227039810.23782.13144258231517629341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In an earlier posting , I had said that "The placement of DEDR 5259 Ta. vayiRu
belly with an implied *-y- seems to be correct even though Kannada has basiR."
Krishnamurti disagreed with this saying, " -c- is older as I said earlier.
Konda and other SCD languages preserve the s form, Konda vasking(velar
nasal)'entrails'. You seem to think that the oldest forms are only foound in
Tamil in every respect. What is your basis for taking -y- in vayiRu as older?"

An examination of the following DEDR entries and Tamil texts shows why -y-
should be older.

DEDR 5259 Ta. vayiRu belly, stomach, pauch, womb, centre, heart of a tree,
interior, inner space, mind; vayin2 belly, stomach; vayA foetus, womb. Ma.
vayaRu belly, stomach, inside receptacle of fruit-seeds... Ko. vi.r (obl.
vi.t_-) belly, pregnancy;...To. pi.r (obl. pi.t_-) belly, pregnancy, womb. Ka.
basaR(u), basiR, basuR(u), basRu belly, abdomen, womb, pregnancy, embryo, the
inside, hold of a ship; basaRi, basURi pregnant woman...KonDa vaski (pl.
vasking) small intestines. Pe. vahing (pl.) intestines...Kui vahi intestine,
entrails, bowels....

DEDR 5549 Ta. vai (-pp-, -tt-) to put, place, seat, lay by, store up, possess,
keep, create, set up; vaippu placing, deposit, treasure; place; earth, land,
world, town; vaiyakam, vaiyam, vayam earth, world; vayin2 place. Ma. vekka to
put, lay, place, build, keep, retain, deposit, put aside; veppu placing,
deposit, treasure; vaikkam what is laid down, deposit, alluvial ground..Ko.
vay- (vac-) to keep, place, beget, bear (child)..To. poy- (poc-) to keep,
place; beget bear (child). Ka. bay, baycu, baccu, oy to deposit, put aside,
hide; bay(a)ke
deposit, treasure, hoard;  besana, besal, besale birth, production, bringing
forth; besal Agu to bear, bring forth; (K.2) vesale pregnant.....Te. vaicu,
(K. also) vayicu, (B. K.) vEyu to place, put. Kol. va.y- (va.yt-), (SR.) vAy-
to sow; Nk. vay- to sow; vayk- to put, put aside....Kur. uinA (uyyas) to put
down; retain, keep back. Malt. oje to keep; lay eggs, bring forth young.
[Krishnamurti, Language 39.562, suggests separating into two entries the items
meaning ?put, place, keep? and bear, beget? respectively.]...

DEDR 5554 Ta. vaiku (vaiki-) to stay, pass the night, dawn; vaikal staying,
daybreak, day that has passed away; vaikaRai, vaikuRu daybreak. Ma. vaikuka to
stay the night, delay, stay, be late; vaiku-nEram, vai-nEram evening; vaikikka
to detain, delay; vaikkam delay. Ka. bay, bay(i)ge evening, evening
twilight...Te. vEgu, vEvu to dawn; vEgincu to keep awake (intr.); vEgimpu
waking from sleep, keeping awake;...Kol. (SR.) vegeD, (Kin.) vEger.
tomorrow....KoNDa vige tomorrow; (BB) vEg-/vIg- to dawn....Kur. bijjnA to
dawn, begin to grow light; bijjta?AnA to protract till dawn. Malt. bije to
dawn..

According to an earlier posting by Dr. Krishnamurti, " PD *c and *y fell
together in most of the languages but the distinciton is preserved by some
members (particularly Kannada). where Ka also has an intervocalic -y- (bayal)
it goes to PD *y. So Kannada holds the clue for PD reconstriction (Ta. poy =
Ka. pusi <*posi 'a lie'; PD *poc-)."

If one were to accept the validity of Krishnamurti?s statement, for DEDR 5549
(in the sense of ?to put, place, deposit) and DEDR 5554 (to stay, etc) the
PDr. reconstruction would be *vay-. (Krishnamurti does reconstruct *-y- for
both of these in Telugu Verbal Bases, p. 496-497) In fact, it is obvious that
5554 and 5549 are related by the simple relationship that when one
puts/deposits an object in a place, it stays there. In "A Reference Grammar of
Classical Tamil Poetry", (p.502), V. S. Rajam translates the following lines

".....kaN akan2 cilampil
paTuttu vaittan2n2a pARai marunkil
eTuttu niRuttan2n2a iTTarum ciRu neRi"   (malaipaTukatAm 14-16)

as, "very small narrow path (iTTarum ciRu neRi) that looks as if it was raised
from the ground and made to stand up (eTuttu niRuttan2n2a) near (maruGkil) the
rock which looks as if it was caused to fall down and made to stay there
(paTuttu vaittan2n2a) on the spacious mountain (kaN akan2 cilampil)." Note the
use of "vai" in a context meaning "to stay". Thus the relationship between
putting/depositing and staying is very clear.

In fact, it is this concept which forms the basis for the Dravidian words for
stomach/womb.

Ta. vayiRu stomach/womb is a place where something is deposited/ something
stays. Ta. vayin2 which occurs in both DEDR 5259 and 5549 provides a critical
link between the two. It means "stomach" as well as "place". This will become
clear when we consider the following.

kaiyaik kaiyin2 nerikkum; tan2 kAtalan2,
vaikum Al ilai an2n2a vayiRRin2aip
pey vaLait taLirAl picaiyum...........                     (kamparAmAyaNam
2.4.10.1-3)

A rough translation of the relevant words is  "she would crush one hand with
another,  and would knead the stomach/womb (vayiRRin2ai) where her son/foetus
stays (vaikum)." Note the use of the word "vaikum" to describe the stay of the
foetus inside the stomach/womb.

....................................................pun2maiyOr
vaikuRum narakaiyum nakum vayiRRin2An2.    (kamparAmAyaNam 3.10.17.3-4)

In this poem, a demon is said to have a stomach (vayiRRin2An2) which was
worse/bigger than the hell where bad people stay (vaikuRum).

That the stomach is a place where things are put (vai-) is shown by the
following lines.

"vayiRRin2uL ulaku Ezin2OTu Ezaiyum vaikkum
ayirppu il ARRal en2 an2ucan2ai En2am on2Ru Aki
eyiRRin2Al eRintu in2 uyir uNTavan2 nAmam
payiRRavO nin2aip payantatu nAn2?" en2ap pakarntAn2.     (kamparAmAyaNam
6.3.51.1-4)

A rough translation is "Did I give birth to you for you to recite the name of
the one who became a pig and killed my brother who had the power to put
(vaikkum) seven plus seven worlds in his stomach (vayiRRinuL)?"

Thus the relationship between vai (to put/deposit), vaiku (to stay), and
vayiRu (stomach/womb) is clear from these examples. vayiRu is a derivative of
vai. In fact, the examples shown here provide the connection between the words
meaning "to put, place, keep? and words meaning ?bear, beget? discussed in
DEDR 5549. The Tamil form "vayin2" which was originally included in DED 4299
Ta. vayiRu  but not in DED 4565 Ta. vai finds its rightful place in both DEDR
5259 Ta. vayiRu and DEDR 5549 Ta. vai and it seals the relationship beyond
doubt.

Given this relationship, if we reconstruct *vay- for DEDR 5549 Ta. vai (Ka.
bay), and DEDR 5554 Ta. vaiku (Ka. bay, bay(i)ge), we have to reconstruct
*vay- for Ta. vayiRu (Ka. basiR) also. This means that -s- in Kannada forms
basiR, etc. are not originals.

Burrow and Emeneau were right in their placement of DEDR 5549 with an implied
*-y-.

Regards

S. Palaniappan




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 14 18:39:56 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 98 23:39:56 +0500
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039808.23782.16092879293513802175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:49 13/06/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-13 04:29:00 EDT, stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM writes:
>
><< Among the many transliterations of this letter, scholars now seem to use
> three in particular: l_macr-b, r_dia-b, z_dot-b.   As well as the fricative
> aspect, the Malayalam and Tamil pronunciations sound something like 'r' and
> 'l', respectively.    Hence z_dot-b has three advantages:   (1) dot-b
> matching retroflexes, (2) z suggesting a fricative, (3) no problem about
> the r/l aspect. >>
>
>As a person who has to constantly deal with the pronunciation of this letter,
>I can say the following. My name in the Tamil version has this letter. It is
>transliterated in my name with "l" which is a very common practice. In my
>business card, to elicit a pronunciation as close to the original as possible
>from Americans, I use a nickname using "r". In my postings on Indology, I use
>the scheme set up by someone as "z". Personally, I do not see any difference
>between the correct pronunciation of this letter by Tamils and Malayalis.
>(There are many Tamils who mispronounce it as retroflex L. However, I think we
>should go by the pronunciation considered correct by the Tamils.)  Many
>Malayalis and Tamils do transliterate this with "zh" which I consider to be an
>arbitrary scheme.
>
>My preference would be to stick with the transliteration scheme of the Tamil
>Lexicon (which uses l_macr-b) for the following reasons.
>
>1. There is a considerable amount of scholarly work related to Tamil where
>they have used it. Even many Dravidian Linguistic Association publications
>(eg. The History of the Grammatical Theories in Malayalam) use it.
>
>2. Having two sub dots with r may lead to confusion between this letter and
>the r_macr-b used in Tamil and Malayalam. In many books printed in India when
>the printing is not very good the two dots merge into a macron. I have
>encountered this many times.
>
>3. Using "z" seems to be very arbitrary.
>
>So, my vote is for l_macr-b.
>
>Regards
>
>S. Palaniappan

The latest book on Drravidian: The Dravidain Languages, published by
Routledge, edited by Sanford Steever uses z <subdot> for the Dravidian
retroflex ficative.The Tamil Lexicon transcription is archaic. Bh.K.
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From thompson at JLC.NET  Mon Jun 15 10:30:05 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 05:30:05 -0500
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039838.23782.5743942734950165093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To add to Jan Houben's note:
>
>Note that sarasvatI is also a (meaningful) proper name of a cow, already in the
>Rgveda: Cf. in the so-called "riddle hymn" RV 1.164 verse 49:
>ya's te sta'naH . . . sa'rasvati ta'm iha dhA'tave kaH.
>"This everflowing teat/udder of thine . . . Sarasvati, make it here ready to be
>sucked."
>The verse is pronounced when the calf is brought near the cow to stimulate the
>flow of milk (of which the calf gets only a part: the rest is for the Pravargya
>offering). The employment of the verse by the father when he gives his new born
>baby to the mother for breast-feeding (e.g. pAraskaragRhyasUtra 1.16.21) is
>clearly secondary. The cow is in the Rgveda and in later text a frequent
>metaphor of speech, e.g. in the same "riddle hymn" 1.164 verses 41-42 (here a
>buffalo-cow however: gaurI'). Cf. further J. Gonda, pUSan and sarasvatI,
>Amsterdam 1985 (e.g. p. 35ff, 44ff).
>
Dominique and I have discussed this a bit off-list already, but perhaps the
list will be able to add further insight. JH is quite right to assert that
the metaphor 'flow of cow's milk = flow of speech' is well attested already
in the RV, and that the image of goddess SarasvatI, as cow, has been
influenced by this metaphor. Of course, the identification of SarasvatI
with goddess VAc is made explicit later in the BrAhmanas, etc.

So one is not surprised to see the word *sarasvatI* included in the list of
words for "speech" at Naig. 1.11. But the presence of the word *saras* on
this list is less expected, since nowhere to my knowledge is this word used
directly as a metaphor for 'flow of speech'.

Dominique and I have discussed RV 7.103.7 in this context. I think that
this stanza may be the basis of the inclusion of *saras* on the Vac list.
Here it is:

brAhmaNA'so atirAtre' na' so'me
sa'ro na' pUrNa'm abhi'to va'dantaH
saMvatsara'sya ta'd a'haH pa'ri STha
ya'n maNDUkAH prAvRSI'NaM babhU'va

"Like Brahmins at the over-night soma rite,
talking as if around a full pond,
that day of the year do you attend,
o frogs, when the rainy season has begun."

If I am right, then it would appear that the inclusion of *saras* on the
list at Naig. 1.11 is a more or less *mechanical* association of the word
*saras* with the goddess VAc, purely on the basis of the familiar
association of SarasvatI and VAc. Note that the presence of the comparative
particle na' [twice] seems to be completely ignored, *if* this passage is
the basis for Naig 1.11, as I think it is.

My questions to the list's Nirukta-ziSTas:

1. How to explain the presence of *saras* at Naig. 1.11?

2. Are there other RV [or other] passages that might better justify this
inclusion that RV 7.103.7?

3. Is this not typical of Nirukta, also well-known for its inconsistent,
seemingly ad hoc etymologies?

4. Can the Nirukta be legitimately used as a source for lexical glosses
such as Dominique is seeking in this thread?

[P.S. I understand the book _Indian Semantic Analysis_, by E Kahrs, may be
available soon. Can anyone confirm this? Is this a translation of the book
of Kahrs discussed a year or two ago on the list, or is it something new?].

Thanks in advance,

George Thompson




From roheko at MSN.COM  Mon Jun 15 04:24:25 1998
From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 06:24:25 +0200
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039813.23782.15553148316655918962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Probably you can check the Jataka 547: Vessantara
is also sitting before his hut and wearing thuch a
thing. It is also shown in Sanchi. Vessantara, the
king, who gave all away, also his 2 childs and
finally his wife. Then Indra appeared and he got
all back. In the PTS-dictionary there you may find
sv paTTa the term AyogapaTTa.
Check please Coomarasvami, Bulletin of Madras
museum, s. v.: He seems to mention the term.

RoHeKo
roheko at msn.com
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Michael Rabe <mrabe at ARTIC.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
<INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Datum: Samstag, 13. Juni 1998 15:54
Betreff: Re: yoga-paTTa


>Given this reasoning by DEVARAKONDA VENKATA
NARAYANA SARMA:
>
>>In the yoga sutras of Patanjali, AsanA which is
one of the aSTAngAs
>>(which are the necessary aids) of yoga, is
defined as
>>
>>sthira-sukhamAsanaM
>>
>>AsanA is the one that is stable and comfortable.
This will be an aid in
>>allowing the sAdhakA to forget his body and
loose himself in meditation.
>>Yoga-paTTa seems to help in making your posture
stable and comfortable.
>
>I wonder how widespread the use of a yoga-paTTa
actually is.
>




From umadevi at SFO.COM  Mon Jun 15 14:23:34 1998
From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 07:23:34 -0700
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227039824.23782.5645253655095023562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>
> On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Mary Storm wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend a good medical history of India, focusing not on
> > modern issues, but more ca. A.D. 500-1500 ?
>
> There isn't one, I'm afraid.
>
> You could try looking at
>
> C. G. Uragoda, A history of medicine in Sri Lanka (Colombo, Sri Lanka
> Medical Association, 1987).  A good book.
>
> Asoke K. Bachi, Medicine in medieval India 11th to 18th centuries (Delhi:
> Konark Publishers, 1997).  Very poor on pre-Mughal stuff.
>
> P. V. Sharma, Indian medicine in the classical age (Varanasi: Chowkhamba
> Sanskrit Series Office, 1972).  Combs classical literature for medical
> info, but very far from being a social history of medicine.
>
> Journals like the Indian Journal of History of Medicine, Indian Journal of
> History of Science, Bulletin of the Indian Institute of History of
> Medicine, Studies in History of Medicine and Science, etc., are of uneven
> quality, but contain some articles on the social history of medicine from
> time to time.
>
> In the light of your Black Death question, I assume you have read
> McNeill's classic Plages and Peoples, which has quite a lot about India,
> plague, etc.  (including an interesting hypothesis linking disease ecology
> with the rise of the caste system).   Christopher Wills' _Plagues: their
> origin, history, and future_ (London: Flamingo, 1997) has a chapter on the
> 1994 plague outbreak in India, and much other interesting stuff.  Wills'
> chapter on choler in India is very interesting, but he is nearly two
> hundred years late on the date of the first outbreaks (mo.dasii again).
>
> All the best,
> Dominik
>
> --
> Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
> Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
>   the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
> Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
> London NW1 2BE, England.
>
> First Rule of History:
>   History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other.


WoW!!
Many thanks for all this information. This is incredibly helpful! I am
most grateful for your thoughts and suggestions.
Best Regards,
Mary Storm




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Mon Jun 15 08:50:55 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 09:50:55 +0100
Subject: Stomach/womb in Dravidian and -y-/-c- alternation
In-Reply-To: <9bd7c368.35843a58@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227039816.23782.15822674191026741914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Palaniappan,

with all due respect to your expertise
on Classical Tamil literature,
I fail to see how a verse from a medieval poet
(what is your date for kampan2?
 9th century? 10th century? 12th century?)
can be taken as a proof (or an argument inside a proof)
that two words are related? [vayiRu and vai]

IMHO, what we see here in these lines
is not an etymological explaination
but an example of moon2ai,
i.e. a kind of alliteration between the first syllable of the line
and the first syllable of some other foot in the same line.

As regards your conclusions, I have no opinion of my own
 ["7. What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence"]

Best wishes

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD


A 17:02 14/06/98 EDT,
vous (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>) avez ?crit :

>Ta. vayiRu stomach/womb is a place where something is deposited/ something
>stays. Ta. vayin2 which occurs in both DEDR 5259 and 5549 provides a critical
>link between the two. It means "stomach" as well as "place". This will become
>clear when we consider the following.
>
>kaiyaik kaiyin2 nerikkum; tan2 kAtalan2,
>vaikum Al ilai an2n2a vayiRRin2aip
>pey vaLait taLirAl picaiyum...........                     (kamparAmAyaNam
>2.4.10.1-3)
>
>A rough translation of the relevant words is  "she would crush one hand with
>another,  and would knead the stomach/womb (vayiRRin2ai) where her son/foetus
>stays (vaikum)." Note the use of the word "vaikum" to describe the stay of
the
>foetus inside the stomach/womb.
>
>....................................................pun2maiyOr
>vaikuRum narakaiyum nakum vayiRRin2An2.    (kamparAmAyaNam 3.10.17.3-4)
>
>In this poem, a demon is said to have a stomach (vayiRRin2An2) which was
>worse/bigger than the hell where bad people stay (vaikuRum).
>
>That the stomach is a place where things are put (vai-) is shown by the
>following lines.
>
>"vayiRRin2uL ulaku Ezin2OTu Ezaiyum vaikkum
>ayirppu il ARRal en2 an2ucan2ai En2am on2Ru Aki
>eyiRRin2Al eRintu in2 uyir uNTavan2 nAmam
>payiRRavO nin2aip payantatu nAn2?" en2ap pakarntAn2.     (kamparAmAyaNam
>6.3.51.1-4)
>
>A rough translation is "Did I give birth to you for you to recite the name of
>the one who became a pig and killed my brother who had the power to put
>(vaikkum) seven plus seven worlds in his stomach (vayiRRinuL)?"
>
>Thus the relationship between vai (to put/deposit), vaiku (to stay), and
>vayiRu (stomach/womb) is clear from these examples. vayiRu is a derivative of
>vai. In fact, the examples shown here provide the connection between the
words
>meaning "to put, place, keep? and words meaning ?bear, beget? discussed in
>DEDR 5549. The Tamil form "vayin2" which was originally included in DED 4299
>Ta. vayiRu  but not in DED 4565 Ta. vai finds its rightful place in both DEDR
>5259 Ta. vayiRu and DEDR 5549 Ta. vai and it seals the relationship beyond
>doubt.
>




From jkcowart at CARI.NET  Mon Jun 15 17:46:33 1998
From: jkcowart at CARI.NET (J. Kingston Cowart)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 10:46:33 -0700
Subject: Mail Test # 2 (plese delete)
Message-ID: <161227039831.23782.13833504650153242939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorting out difficulties brought on by the electronic demon.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jun 15 10:22:20 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 11:22:20 +0100
Subject: Black Death
In-Reply-To: <35757544.C66@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <161227039821.23782.9911249108266007367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Mary Storm wrote:

> Can anyone recommend a good medical history of India, focusing not on
> modern issues, but more ca. A.D. 500-1500 ?

There isn't one, I'm afraid.

You could try looking at

C. G. Uragoda, A history of medicine in Sri Lanka (Colombo, Sri Lanka
Medical Association, 1987).  A good book.

Asoke K. Bachi, Medicine in medieval India 11th to 18th centuries (Delhi:
Konark Publishers, 1997).  Very poor on pre-Mughal stuff.

P. V. Sharma, Indian medicine in the classical age (Varanasi: Chowkhamba
Sanskrit Series Office, 1972).  Combs classical literature for medical
info, but very far from being a social history of medicine.

Journals like the Indian Journal of History of Medicine, Indian Journal of
History of Science, Bulletin of the Indian Institute of History of
Medicine, Studies in History of Medicine and Science, etc., are of uneven
quality, but contain some articles on the social history of medicine from
time to time.

In the light of your Black Death question, I assume you have read
McNeill's classic Plages and Peoples, which has quite a lot about India,
plague, etc.  (including an interesting hypothesis linking disease ecology
with the rise of the caste system).   Christopher Wills' _Plagues: their
origin, history, and future_ (London: Flamingo, 1997) has a chapter on the
1994 plague outbreak in India, and much other interesting stuff.  Wills'
chapter on choler in India is very interesting, but he is nearly two
hundred years late on the date of the first outbreaks (mo.dasii again).

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.

First Rule of History:
  History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other.




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Mon Jun 15 15:23:52 1998
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 11:23:52 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039826.23782.454690604765701713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On June 13, 1998, S Palaniappan wrote:

>My preference would be to stick with the transliteration scheme of the 
>Tamil Lexicon (which uses l_macr-b) for the following reasons.
>
> . . .
>
>2. Having two sub dots with r may lead to confusion between this letter 
>and the r_macr-b used in Tamil and Malayalam. In many books printed 
>in India when the printing is not very good the two dots merge into a 
>macron. I have encountered this many times.

This is an important point.   And confusion is possible in any country when
small type is used.

>3. Using "z" seems to be very arbitrary.
>
>So, my vote is for l_macr-b.

A problem with this is that macr-b is otherwise used only for alveolar
consonants, and is useful as an indicator for them. 

Tony Stone

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
Indic scripts.  
Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com             Thinking aloud on
transliteration:
  
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htmerve.com/
homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun 15 09:40:31 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 14:40:31 +0500
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039818.23782.17428441535572939066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An aditional reason in favour of z-subdot is how early Skt borrowings are
represented in Tamil, e.g. u.sa: u.zai, se:.sa- :ce:.zam. Phonetically a
voiced counterpart of IndoA .s is not far off the mark of PDr or Ta. .z. I
published a longish paper on the developments of PD *.z as early as 1958
(Indian Linguistics, Turner Jubilee Volume). PD *.z becomes .l, .d, .r, r,
in most lgs.Toda also has .s and s(wedge-supra)beside the above. Being a
frictionless continuant, it leads to y and 0 also. The amjor advantage is to
match it with other retrofexes and .z eminently suits this. l-macr-b is ill
suited and is not used by scholars like like zvelebil. Bh.K.


At 08:37 14/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Among the many transliterations of this letter, scholars now seem to use
>> three in particular: l_macr-b, r_dia-b, z_dot-b.   As well as the fricative
>> aspect, the Malayalam and Tamil pronunciations sound something like 'r' and
>> 'l', respectively.    Hence z_dot-b has three advantages:   (1) dot-b
>> matching retroflexes, (2) z sugges) no problem about
>> the r/l aspect.
>
>For those who know Tamil/Malayalam, the actual symbol makes little
>difference; humans can get used to almost anything. I no longer
>blanch when I see z for "s.  But for others,
>z-underdot may be too confusing: There have been people who thought
>that the sound is a voiced retroflex >sibilant<, a sound that is rare,
>and not found in modern Dravidian languages, but is reconstructed for
>proto-IA. I have never heard it in any natural language, but it is not
>hard to voice .s, and the result does not sound anything like the sound
>in question.
>
>I doubt that there is any easy answer. Any choice will confuse those
>who have never heard it.
>
>
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, 00017
Telephone:40-7019665




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 15 21:43:18 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 14:43:18 -0700
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039840.23782.13826226452146432599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the ritual for changing the yajnopavIta, the sacred thread is spread
across the knees, from the beginning Acamana to the actual mantra
recited at the time of wearing the thread (yajnopavItam paramam pavitram
etc.). When reciting this mantra, it is removed from around the knees,
and held vertical between the two palms, right palm upward. The thread
is worn over the left shoulder at the close of this mantra. I'm not sure
if any dharma/gRhya sUtra text/commentary talks about it, or if it is
just one of those many ritual actions that one is supposed to do, with
no textual reference for it.

Vidyasankar

Michael Rabe <mrabe at ARTIC.EDU> wrote:

>Dear Vidyasankar:
>Thank you for this information, certainly relevant, and prompting me to
ask
>if there are any published commentaries on this ritual you mention.
>
>>Note that in the annual upAkarma rituals (usually in the month of
>>SrAvaNa), the new yajnopavIta is also first wrapped around the knees
in
>>the manner of the yoga-paTTa, before being worn over the shoulder.
There
>>may be other mantric associations with the manner of using the
>>yoga-paTTa.
>>
>>Vidyasankar



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Tue Jun 16 02:41:55 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 20:41:55 -0600
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039844.23782.15907738460582581898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Rolf,
        Amazingly, here I'd overlooked that example all these years.  And
I'll check the text of 547 next time I'm at the library, together with the
PTS dictionary...much thanks.

>Probably you can check the Jataka 547: Vessantara
>is also sitting before his hut and wearing thuch a
>thing. It is also shown in Sanchi. Vessantara, the
>king, who gave all away, also his 2 childs and
>finally his wife. Then Indra appeared and he got
>all back. In the PTS-dictionary there you may find
>sv paTTa the term AyogapaTTa.
>Check please Coomarasvami, Bulletin of Madras
>museum, s. v.: He seems to mention the term.
>
>RoHeKo
>roheko at msn.com
>-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: Michael Rabe <mrabe at ARTIC.EDU>
>An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
><INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>Datum: Samstag, 13. Juni 1998 15:54
>Betreff: Re: yoga-paTTa
>




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Jun 15 20:16:34 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 21:16:34 +0100
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039834.23782.13363201518639988568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 "Dominique.Thillaud" wrote (on Nirukta  2.23 on vAc and
sarasvatI):

>Dear Beatrice,
>. . . Despite the "With reference to these", it seems we have a big break
>in the reasoning, between 'speech' and 'river'/'deity'. Even if we read
>"vAc (deity)" and if we suppose a metonymy vAc/sarasvatI (both deities),
>the 'river' is still far. An ellipsis of the metaphor 'speech'/'river'? Are
>you (or someone else) in a position to explain this?

Note that sarasvatI is also a (meaningful) proper name of a cow, already in the
Rgveda: Cf. in the so-called "riddle hymn" RV 1.164 verse 49:
ya's te sta'naH . . . sa'rasvati ta'm iha dhA'tave kaH.
"This everflowing teat/udder of thine . . . Sarasvati, make it here ready to be
sucked."
The verse is pronounced when the calf is brought near the cow to stimulate the
flow of milk (of which the calf gets only a part: the rest is for the Pravargya
offering). The employment of the verse by the father when he gives his new born
baby to the mother for breast-feeding (e.g. pAraskaragRhyasUtra 1.16.21) is
clearly secondary. The cow is in the Rgveda and in later text a frequent
metaphor of speech, e.g. in the same "riddle hymn" 1.164 verses 41-42 (here a
buffalo-cow however: gaurI'). Cf. further J. Gonda, pUSan and sarasvatI,
Amsterdam 1985 (e.g. p. 35ff, 44ff).

greetings, JH




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Mon Jun 15 19:48:34 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 21:48:34 +0200
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227039848.23782.12617929489442937642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Mary Storm wrote:

> Can anyone recommend a good medical history of India, focusing not on
> modern issues, but more ca. A.D. 500-1500 ?

Dominik Wujastyk then replied

You could try looking at

C. G. Uragoda, A history of medicine in Sri Lanka (Colombo, Sri Lanka
Medical Association, 1987).  A good book.

and some more items.

Dominik seems rather well informed, so I'd like to ask him (and the others) if he also knows something about books on (history) of VETERINARIAN medicine?

Sandra van der Geer
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From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 16 02:42:59 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 22:42:59 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039846.23782.9244196349392140539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-15 05:12:27 EDT, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes:

<< An aditional reason in favour of z-subdot is how early Skt borrowings are
 represented in Tamil, e.g. u.sa: u.zai, se:.sa- :ce:.zam. Phonetically a
 voiced counterpart of IndoA .s is not far off the mark of PDr or Ta. .z. I
 published a longish paper on the developments of PD *.z as early as 1958
 (Indian Linguistics, Turner Jubilee Volume). PD *.z becomes .l, .d, .r, r,
 in most lgs.Toda also has .s and s(wedge-supra)beside the above. Being a
 frictionless continuant, it leads to y and 0 also. The amjor advantage is to
 match it with other retrofexes and .z eminently suits this. l-macr-b is ill
 suited and is not used by scholars like like zvelebil. Bh.K. >>

P. S. Subrahmanyam in his Dravidian Comparative Phonology (1983), p. 422-423
says the following.

"Different symbols are used for its transcription by different authors: r_dia-
b is used by Burrow and Emeneau (DED(S) and other works), z_dot-b by Ramaswami
Aiyar (1938) and Krishnamurti (1958b and subsequent works only in writing the
reconstructed forms), l by Narasimhia,  l_macr-b by Tamil lexicon, P. S.
Subrahmanya Sastri, L. V. Ramaswami Aiyar and Krishnamurti (1961), l_dia-b by
A.C. Sekhar and G. S. Gai and r_dot-b by Zvelebil and Pfeiffer. As remarked by
Emeneau (loc.cit,) it is futile to argue which symbol is correct. l_macr-b is
used in the present work mainly because of convenience in typing and printing.
As pointed out by Burrow (1968b) Krishnamurti's practice of writing z_dot-b
for this sound in the reconstructed forms in order to distinguish it from the
corresponding sound in Tamil-Malayalam and KannaDa (this reason was stated by
Krishnamurti) has little justification since there is no evidence that the
concerned proto-sound is phonetically different from the corresponding sound
in Tamil-Malayalam."

Contrary to what Krishnamurti says, Kamil Zvelebil in his writings on Tamil
literature uses l_macr-b (eg. The Smile of Murugan, 1973, E. J. Brill,  Tamil
Traditions on Subrahmanya-Murugan, 1991, Institute of Asian Studies) V. S.
Rajam's A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, 1992, American
Philosophical Society also uses l_macr-b.

The Tamil Lexicon's l_macr-b was adopted in 1936.  Ramaswami Aiyar used z_dot-
b in 1938. Thus in terms of their history they are virtually identical. But
l_macr-b is being used more widely than z_dot-b til today.

If one goes to any library with South Asian collection, the number of books
dealing with Dravidian linguistics using z_dot-b will be relatively few. The
number of books dealing with different Indological fields such as literature,
religion, archeology, history, etc. using Tamil materials using l_macr-b will
be considerably more.  Examples are John Carman and Vasudha Narayanan's Tamil
Veda , 1984, University of Chicago Press, Asko Parpola's Deciphering the Indus
Script, 1994, Cambridge University Press, Rajeshwari Ghose's The Lord of Arur:
The Tyagaraja Cult in Tamilnadu, 1996, Motilal Banarasidass.

Vidyanath Rao wrote:
>For those who know Tamil/Malayalam, the actual symbol makes little
>difference; humans can get used to almost anything. I no longer
>blanch when I see z for "s.  But for others,
>z-underdot may be too confusing:

I agree with this in general with one minor exception. As Rao said, many
ordinary Tamils would identify 'zh' used in commonly-encountered words
correctly. However I have heard them when they come across a word which they
have not encountered ordinarily, and they mispronounce it so badly any lover
of Tamil would cringe. I expect the same will happen with z_dot-b also. But as
Emeneau stated, it is futile to argue which is the "correct" one. My criterion
would be to choose one which causes the least number of people to change their
system.

One note about Tamil borrowing of Sanskrit words with "S". While there are a
few cases where IA "S" is replaced by Tamil l_macr-b, most of the time "S" is
replaced by "T"  as in meSa > mETam, veSa > vETam, etc.

Right now when diacritic marks are not used in writing, the word "Tamil_macr-
b" is written just without the macron  as "Tamil" and there is not much of a
difference between the two. But, if one were to follow the suggestion of
z_dot-b, are we going to end up with two different ways "Tamiz" and "Tamil"?
If the goal is to bring uniformity, this will actually work against it. It is
going to cause more confusion.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Jun 15 21:46:43 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 22:46:43 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039836.23782.3960389996599734687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Having initiated this thread a few weeks ago when I found the Indo-Aryan im-/e-
migration discussion somewhat stagnating, I would now like to conclude, for
reasons of time, my own contributions to it (others may continue, of course),
with a question:

Are we witnessing the transformation of part of South Asia's proto-history into
history?

The name proto-history was invented to take into account the peculiar situation
of South Asia, with its (Vedic) texts apparently without any corresponding
archeological traces, and archeological cultures without (written) testimonies
(cf. Sankalia in his book Prehistory and Protohistory of India and Pakistan,
Pune 1974). A book like Inside the Texts - Beyond the Texts (see earlier in
this thread) shows that the classical Indological paradigm has now progressed
to much more satisfactory models integrating textual and archeological data
than, say, 50 or 60 years ago. I am especially thinking of the contributions by
Falk, Parpola, Rau, and Witzel.

I thank
Sn. Subrahmanya
Lakshmi Srinivas
S Krishna
S Kalyanaraman
George Thompson
Lars M. Fosse
and others for their reactions,
and especially also Michael Witzel for becoming a spokesman of the progressing
classical paradigm (for its philological basis not just European, cf.
pataNjali: yat s'abdam Aha tad asmAkam pramANam . . . ). A state-of-the-art
overview of this succesful paradigm is found in Witzel's introduction to the
above-mentioned book (sorry to mention it so often, just now I am reading it;
other relevant publications have been mentioned in this and related threads).

I appreciate the challenges emerging from attempts to establish alternative
paradigms and hope they continue (and become of better quality).

I would not recommend banning a discussion of presuppositions (someone's
proposal in this thread), but it is to be admitted that presuppositions cannot
be discusse at each and every step. A better awareness of the history of
Indology and how certain models became dominant within the classical paradigm
(mainly without colonially or post-colonially biased state-support, and
nowadays even: in spite of the general neglect of Indological studies in
countries outside India) would be welcome. It is a pity that Oldenberg's
insightful Vedaforschung (1905) which discusses the struggle for the right
method in the beginning decades of Indology has not yet been translated into
English (or has it?).

JH




From barathi at PC.JARING.MY  Mon Jun 15 23:21:38 1998
From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 07:21:38 +0800
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039842.23782.1290365064463421666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:43 PM 6/15/98 PDT, you wrote:
>In the ritual for changing the yajnopavIta, the sacred thread is spread
>across the knees, from the beginning Acamana to the actual mantra
>recited at the time of wearing the thread (yajnopavItam paramam pavitram
>etc.). When reciting this mantra, it is removed from around the knees,
>and held vertical between the two palms, right palm upward. The thread
>is worn over the left shoulder at the close of this mantra. I'm not sure
>if any dharma/gRhya sUtra text/commentary talks about it, or if it is
>just one of those many ritual actions that one is supposed to do, with
>no textual reference for it.
>
>Vidyasankar
>

        The significance of placing the Yagna UpavIta across
        the knees temporarily is a ritual of a different
        nature. It does not however cause any changes in the
        body system. The function of the YOga PaTTa is
        entirely different. It has an esoteric as well as
        exoteric significances. It is neither an adornment,
        nor a just a mere limb/posture supportive sling.
        It has its specific purposes.
        I will get back to you with whatever can be divulged;-)
        later.

        Regards

        Jayabarathi




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun 16 08:45:28 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 09:45:28 +0100
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039850.23782.16552533365181097546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Correction and addition to previous message:
sorry for misquoting pataNjali: the quote should read:
yac chabda Aha tad asmAkam pramANam . . .  (MBh 1.11.1-2; 1.366.8)

As for the history of Indological studies and the emergence of a classical
paradigm, one may mention, apart from Oldenberg's Vedaforschung (1905), also
Manfred Mayrhofer's Sanskrit und die Sprachen Alteuropas: zwei Jahrhunderte des
Widerspiels von Entdeckungen und Irrtuemern, Goettingen: Vandenhoeck, 1983.
Here the emergence in the course of the 18th and 19th century is described of a
non-Sanskrit- and non-India-centered model after initial quite popular,
'romantic' models in which Sansrit was considered to be closest to a common
Indo-European language. A major role in this transition was played by the
French-speaking Swiss F. de Saussure, end 19th century (n.b.: Switzerland had
no colonial ties with India).

JH




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Tue Jun 16 09:28:01 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 10:28:01 +0100
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980616134500.19378cf2@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227039856.23782.16290165645900547182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 13:59 16/06/98 +0500, vous ("Bh.Krishnamurti" <bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN>)
 avez ?crit :

>..... Let Tamil scholars
>continue to use whatever they want. I appeal to Dr. Stone to provide
>z-subdot for the benefit of those who decide  to use it.In my TVB I used
>only l-sub-macron, but changed it later. LVRAiyar and French Scholars
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>consistently used z-subdot.

As a matter of fact,

Jules Bloch uses l-double-subdot
(l with two dots below) in his "Structure Grammaticale
des Langues Dravidiennes", Paris 1946.

We find the same scheme inside the English translation:
"The grammatical Structure of Dravidian languages"
that was published after his death
(Deccan College Hand-book Series, Poona, 1954)


After him, Jean Filliozat used a special scheme
for Tamil, where capital letters where mixed with lower case.
In his books,
 N = n-sub-macron
 R = r-sub-macron
 L = l-sub-macron (= z-subdot)

After him (except in his translation of paripATal),
prof. Fran?ois Gros has used the standard Tamil Lexicon Scheme
with l-sub-macron.

The majority of books I know (including my own) use the same scheme.

One recent (and outstanding) one that has come to my notice
thanks to a message of N.Ganesan on this list is
"The Study of Stolen Love",
 A translation of
kaLaviyal en2Ra iRaiyaz2Ar akapporuL
 with commentary by nakkIran2Ar
translated by David C. Buck and (the late) K. Paramasivam,
1997, Scholars Press, Atlanta, Georgia, ISBN O-7885-0331-6

For people who, like me, are more interested in the study
of (real?, attested?, not-too-much-reconstructed?)
Tamil literature (medieval, classical, modern)
than in general (or comparative) dravidian studies,
there seems to be no point in changing the transliteration
scheme, even though one can always adapt oneself.

So, from this angle, the answer seems:
1st choice: keep l-sub-macron
2nd choice: if the majority wants it, accept z-subdot
3rd choice: do your best to avoid the clumsy r-double-subdot
       (or l-double-subdot !!!)

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard(Paris)




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 16 15:44:16 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 10:44:16 -0500
Subject: Random cultural oddity?
Message-ID: <161227039931.23782.10162058523915116241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I haven't seen mention of this anywhere (but then, I haven't been looking
either)

So, I wondered:  Am I the only one who noticed this and thought it ...
interesting:

vyAgra :: Viagra

Surely this is more than a coincidence?

In a lighter mood, jonathan

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun 16 09:47:15 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 10:47:15 +0100
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039854.23782.12181058572652875711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon 15 Jun 1998 George Thompson asked:

>1. How to explain the presence of *saras* at Naig. 1.11?

>2. Are there other RV [or other] passages that might better justify this
>inclusion that RV 7.103.7?

If sarasvatI is a *meaningful* proper name for a cow, as I suggested in my
message, saras- must have been intended as "a pond of milk", and for a cow
called sarasvatI this must mean that it is hoped/expected that she gives
"pondfuls of milk".
The metaphorical usage of sa'ras not for natural ponds but for "a lot of . . .
(some liquid)" is frequent in the RV (more frequent than non-metaphorical
reference?). Cf. RV 5.29.8, 8.1.23, 8.77.4, 9.54.2 for "pondfuls of soma",
8.45.24 for "pondfuls of <soma> mixed with milk", and 8.7.10 for "pondfuls of
milk".

Interesting also: RV 9.67.32: sa'rasvatI "milks" (gives as a cow) "milk,
butter, honey and water/ and sweet water." (Verses 31-32 of this hymn are
missing in vanNooten and Holland's recent edition, HOS 50! I think the editors
went here a bit too far in their attempt to restore a more original text).

other questions asked were:
>3. Is this not typical of Nirukta, also well-known for its inconsistent,
>seemingly ad hoc etymologies?

>4. Can the Nirukta be legitimately used as a source for lexical glosses
>such as Dominique is seeking in this thread?

For the place of Nirukta in a larger context of emerging linguistic/semantic
awareness in the Sanskrit tradition, see now also my contribution "The Sanskrit
Tradition", especially sections 1-4 (from Vedic hymns to Brahmanas and
Nirukta), in:
The Emergence of Semantics in Four Linguistic Traditions: Hebrew, Sanskrit,
Greek, Arabic, by W.v. Bekkum, J. Houben, I. Sluiter and K. Versteegh. (Studies
in the History of the Language Sciences, vol. 82.)
Amsterdam/Philadelphia: John Benjamins, 1997. Price ca. Hfl 198 / US $ 99.

Best wishes, JH




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Tue Jun 16 09:06:18 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 11:06:18 +0200
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039861.23782.7313024196887997437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members,
        To justify my hypothesis on the name of the Goddess sarasvatI (from
a saras =? speech), I must add some Greek facts to the Latin sermO
(*sermOn):
        We have a word herme:neus "interpreter", (first used for the poets
as Gods' interpreters) which shows the usual suffix -eus of job's names and
leads to a *herma:n (e: < a: is given here by the Pindaric form
herma:neus). But this *herma:n is not totally unknown: Laconian (and
Arcadian) forms of the God's name Hermes give us a genitive Hermanos. Now,
one of the Hermes' features is to be the God of the Eloquence, one among
the numerous common traits pairing Him with Apollo, leader of the Muses
(and compared to the Goddess vAc by Dumezil). Hence, it's highly probable
that this *herma:n have something to do with the speech, especially the
poetic one.
        The suffix -ma:n is not attested in Greek, but the neutral -ma (<
-*mn) is widely used, and known to altern with the sigmatic neutral -os.
Hence, I'm highly interested by the possibility of a Vedic saras = speech.

        Thinking at the Nirukta 2.23, gently given by Beatrice:
"The following fifty-seven (words) [in the NighaNTu] are synonyms of
speech. From what (root) is vAc (speech) derived? It is derived from (the
root) vac (to speak). With reference to these, the word SarasvatI is used
both in the sense of 'a river' and of 'a deity' in Vedic passages" (trans.
by Lakshman Sarup).
        I'd try to understand it:
        * saras is synonym of speech.
        (* in fact that's an homonym of saras 'pond').
        * the name of the Goddess vAc is derived from the speech.
        * this explains why the name sarasvatI had two meanings in Vedic: a
river (from the usual saras, no comment) and the Goddess of Eloquence (in
the same way as vAc).
        Do you agree? It could be perhaps useful to have the Sanskrit text,
"with reference to these" being the key.

        Following George, lets go back to the frogs (RV 7.103.7):
brAhmaNA'so atirAtre' na' so'me
sa'ro na' pUrNa'm abhi'to va'dantaH
        the two "na'" could be parallel in a basic sentence:
brAhmaNA'so abhi'to va'dantaH
        one for the circumstance:
atirAtre' na' so'me
        one for the regime of vad-:
sa'ro na' pUrNa'm
        both expliciting the metaphore (I agree with na' < na'): that's not
a soma sacrifice, but (because it's night) it seems; that's not a "full
litany" (because inarticulate), but it seems.
        Could I be right?
        The metaphore frog/priest based on the song is perhaps an Eurindian
one and the variants of the frog's Greek name 'batrakhos' (bathrakos (<
*bathrax), botrakhos, bratakhos, brotakhos) could suggest a root
*bRgwh-akhos with a dissimilation b..bh > b..dh; in the Aristophane's play
"Frogs", the choir of frogs are the Eleusinian initiates and the homeric
epic "Batrakhomyomakhia" (Battle of frogs and mices) shows the Gods allied
to the frogs (except Athena Who is angry against them because, coming back
from war and tired, the frog's songs keep Her awaked (note 'end of war
season' = 'begin of rainy season')).

        I thank Jan but I don't believe the "cow" metaphore meaningful.
It's commonly used for any sort of abundant gift: the cow give ALL things.
The metaphore speech/river seems to be universal (French: 'un flot de
paroles', 'un discours-fleuve', &c.) but I agree with George: that could
explain sarasvatI(river)/speech, not saras/speech. Moreover, the metaphore
seems to refer (cf the medical Greek "logorrhee") to an unstructured
speech, with a slight pejorative connotation of overflowing, unacceptable
for the Goddess sarasvatI.

        Regards,
Dominique

PS: Could someone be rather courageous to give us the 57 synonyms of speech
from  naigh.1.11 ? Such a list could be very useful.



Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun 16 16:55:59 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 11:55:59 -0500
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039867.23782.18328615748273700549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dominique wrote:
>
>PS: Could someone be rather courageous to give us the 57 synonyms of speech
>from  naigh.1.11 ? Such a list could be very useful.
>
>
Here goes [from Roth's edition, p.7]:

zlokaH | dhArA | IfA [f = Vedic L]| gauH | gaurI | gandharvI | gabhIrA |
gambhIrA | mandrA | mandrAjanI | vAzI | vANI | vANIcI | vANaH | paviH |
bhAratI | dhamaniH | nAfI [in some MSS nIliH] | mefiH | menA [in some MSS
meniH]| sUryA | sarasvatI | nivit | svAhA | vagnuH [in some MSS gagnuH] |
upabdiH | mAyuH | kAkut [in some MSS kAkup] | jihvA | ghoSaH | svaraH |
zabdaH | svanaH | Rk | hotrA | gIH | gAthA | gaNaH | dhenA | gnAH [in some
MSS gnA] | vipA | nanA [in some MSS nagnA] | kazA | dhiSaNA | nauH |
akSaram | mahI | aditiH | zacI | vAk | anuSTup | dhenuH | valguH [in some
MSS vagnuH] | galdA | saraH [in some MSS rasaH] | suparNI | bekurA-iti
saptapaJcAzadvAGnAmAni ||

p.s. I wonder if there is any significance to the variant reading for
saras: rasaH.

Hope this helps.

GT




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun 16 11:02:19 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 12:02:19 +0100
Subject: Chariots (was horse argument)
Message-ID: <161227039858.23782.9081179716686897362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>?From etymologies and archeological remains to texts:

the relatively realistic hymn on the horse dadhikrA (RV 4.38) testifies to an
intensive use of horse and chariots. The king to which the horse dadhikrA
belonged was a destroyer of Dasyus (ghana'm da'syubhyo). But otherwise it was
apparently mainly used in "cattle raids", in which it was extremely succesful.
The horse, fast as the wind (vAtam iva dhra'jantam) overtook chariots
(rathatu'ram). It was apparently pulling a chariot itself, e.g. 4.40.4b
dadhikrA, by now fully deified, is still said to be tied at neck, apikakSa' (?)
and mouth). It "overtook" or "remained before" the whip (4.40.4a) so the driver
was behind the horse, not sitting on it.

Interpretation: some historical, royal horse was extremely fast and helped
greatly in fights and raids. That its praise was accepted as a hymn and was
circulated and transmitted as such shows how highly valuated a fast horse and
chariot were, apparently for practical purposes. Whether the necessary
techniques for horse-keeping and chariotry were taken from somewhere or locally
innovated, they must have played a role in the succes of the important Vedic
tribe the pUrus (speaking a partly already 'creolized' but still strongly 'Indo-
European' language).

Best wishes, JH




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 16 19:36:24 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 12:36:24 -0700
Subject: Tipu Sultan
Message-ID: <161227039889.23782.338793306398121980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Check the following references. Some are simply factual, with some old
original sources. The rest spans the spectrum of interpretations
(British/Indian/Pakistani/Hindu/Muslim - martyr/traitor, tyrant/humane,
fanatic/secularist).

Vidyasankar

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahmad Saeed, Tipu Sultan.  [1st ed.].  Lahore, Ferozsons [1969].

Ali, B. Sheikh. Tipu Sultan : a study in diplomacy and confrontation, B.
Sheik Ali. Mysore : Geetha Book House, 1982.

Ali, B. Sheikh. British relations with Haidar Ali, 1760-1782.  Mysore:
Rao and Raghavan, [1963].

Ali Haidara, 1690-1785. Kulliyyat i 'Ali Haidar 'Ali / 'Ali Haidar.
Lahaur : Pakistan Panjabi Adabi Bord, 1988.

Bowring, Lewin Bentham, 1824-1910. Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan and the
struggle with the Musalman powers of the South.  Dehra Dun, EBD Pub. &
Distributing Co. [1969]. Series title:  Rulers of India.

Captives of Tipu : survivors' narratives / edited by A.W. Lawrence.
London: Jonathan Cape, 1929. Series title:  SAMP early 20th-century
Indian books project ; item 10449.

Fernandes, Praxy, Storm over Seringapatam; the incredible story of Hyder
Ali & Tippu Sultan. [Bombay] Thackers [1969].

Fernandes, Praxy, The Tigers of Mysore : a biography of Hyder Ali & Tipu
Sultan / Praxy Fernandes.  Rev. and updated ed.  New Delhi ; New York,
N.Y., U.S.A. : Viking, c1991.

Forrest, Denys Mostyn. Tiger of Mysore: the life and death of Tipu
Sultan, by Denys Forrest. London, Chatto & Windus, 1970.

Hasan, Mohibbul. History of Tipu Sultan.  Calcutta, Bibliophile, 1951.

Henderson, John Robertson, The coins of Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan, by
J. R. Henderson.  Madras, Printed by the superintendent, Government
press, 1921.

Husain 'Ali, Kirmani, fl. 1781-1802. History of Tipu Sultan, being a
translation of the Nishan-i-Haidari / by Mir Husain Ali Khan Kirmani ;
translated from Persian by W. Miles.  Lahore: Islamic Book Service,
1974.

Jalaja Caktitaca_n. Tippu Sultan, a fanatic? / V. Jalaja Sakthidasan.
1st ed.  Madras: Nithyananda Jothi Nilayam, 1990.

Jeddy, Bilal Ahmed. Tipu Sultan : the making of the man and the martyr /
B.A. Jeddy. Karachi, Pakistan : Syed and Syed, c1995.

Kareem, C. K. Kerala under Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan / C. K. Kareem.
Ernakulam : Kerala History Association : distributors, Paico Pub. House,
1973.

Krasheninnikov, V. L. (Viacheslav Leonidovich) Lev Maisura. [Tipu
Sultan]. (Ist. povest'). [Predisl. kand. ist. nauk L. B. Alaeva].
Moskva, Nauka, 1971.

Michaud, J. Fr. (Joseph Fr.), 1767-1839. Michaud's history of Mysore,
under Hyder Ali & Tippoo Sultan / translated from the French by V.K.
Raman Menon ; with a foreword by the Raja of Panagal.  New Delhi : Asian
Educational Services, 1985-

Munro, Innes. A narrative of the military operations of the Coromandel
Coast, against the combined forces of the French, Dutch and Hyder Ally
Cawn, from the year 1780 to the peace in 1784 ...  London, T. Bensley,
1789.

Muthanna, I. M. Tipu Sultan x'rayed / I.M. Muthanna.  1st ed.  [Mysore?
: s.n.], 1980 (Mysore : Usha Press).

Palsokar, R. D., Tipu Sultan, by R. D. Palsokar. Foreword by S. S.
Maitra.  Poona, 1969.

Secret correspondence of Tipu Sultan / Kabir Kausar.  1st ed.  New Delhi
: Light and Life Publishers, 1980.

Sharma, H. D. (Hari Dev), The real Tipu : a brief history of Tipu Sultan
/ H.D. Sharma.  Varanasi : Rishi Publications, 1991.

Shushtari, Zayn al-'Abidin, fl. 1790. Fath-ul-mujahideen, a treatise on
the rules and regulations of Tipu Sultan's army and his principles of
strategy, compliled by Mir Zainul Abedeen Shushtari; edited by Mahmud
Husain, with a foreword by Liaquat Ali Khan. Karachi, Urdu Academy Sind,
1950.

Tigers round the throne : the court of Tipu Sultan (1750-1799).  London
: Zamana, 1990.

Tippu, Sultan, 1749?-1799. The dreams of Tipu Sultan / Translated from
the original Persian with an introduction and notes by Mahmud Husain.
[Karachi : Times Press, 19--]. Series title:  Pakistan Historical
Society. Publications no. 7.

Tipu Sultan, a great martyr / editor, B. Sheik Ali.  Bangalore :
Prasaranga, Bangalore University, c1993.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun 16 17:45:37 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 12:45:37 -0500
Subject: saras 2
Message-ID: <161227039878.23782.9557707050481797723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry. In my last post I should have added the following, in response to
Dominique's other request:

>        It could be perhaps useful to have the Sanskrit text,
>"with reference to these" being the key.
>
>
The Skt. text of Nir. 2.23 is:

vAJnAmAnyuttarANi saptapaJcAzat | vAkkasmAdvacateH | tatra
sarasvatItyetasya nadIvad devatAvaccha nigamA bhavanti tadyad
devatAvadupariSTAttad vyAkhyAsyAmaH | athaitannadIvat |

and here again is L. Sarup's translation, as given by Beatrice:

Nirukta 2.23;
'The following fifty-seven (words) [in the NighaNTu] are synonyms of
speech. From what (root) is vAc (speech) derived? It is derived from (the
root) vac (to speak). With reference to these, the word SarasvatI is used
both in the sense of 'a river' and of 'a deity' in Vedic passages" (trans.
by Lakshman Sarup).

GT




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Tue Jun 16 17:10:56 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 13:10:56 -0400
Subject: Origin of the use of zh (was Re: Draft transliteration ...)
Message-ID: <161227039880.23782.12428723201028123568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am curious about another common transliteration of the sound in
question, namely zh. Can anyone tell me the origin of this? Did
it originate as the transliteration of transliteration of Tamil into
Cyrllic?




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun 16 08:59:13 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 13:59:13 +0500
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039852.23782.376971601504203204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I do not care what Palaniappan uses for Tamil. For Prot0-Dravidian, z-subdot
makes better sense. As already pointed out by prof. Antony P. Stone, subbar
is used for alevolars consistently, _n, _r, _t. Let us not confuse
transliteration between Tamil and Proto-Dravidian. Let Tamil scholars
continue to use whatever they want. I appeal to Dr. Stone to provide
z-subdot for the benefit of those who decide  to use it.In my TVB I used
only l-sub-macron, but changed it later. LVRAiyar and French Scholars
consistently used z-subdot. The latest book on Dravidian languages
(Routledge, 1998) prefers z-subdot.If Tamil scholars think that the
phonetics of _l and PD *.z are the same (I do not know on what evidence!),
they can use either of  their pet symbols. While the use of symbols can be
arbitrary, there can be a method even in madness, just like using h for
aspirate stops, p:ph, k:kh, etc. Bh.K.



At 22:42 15/06/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-15 05:12:27 EDT, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes:
>
><< An aditional reason in favour of z-subdot is how early Skt borrowings are
> represented in Tamil, e.g. u.sa: u.zai, se:.sa- :ce:.zam. Phonetically a
> voiced counterpart of IndoA .s is not far off the mark of PDr or Ta. .z. I
> published a longish paper on the developments of PD *.z as early as 1958
> (Indian Linguistics, Turner Jubilee Volume). PD *.z becomes .l, .d, .r, r,
> in most lgs.Toda also has .s and s(wedge-supra)beside the above. Being a
> frictionless continuant, it leads to y and 0 also. The amjor advantage is to
> match it with other retrofexes and .z eminently suits this. l-macr-b is ill
> suited and is not used by scholars like like zvelebil. Bh.K. >>
>
>P. S. Subrahmanyam in his Dravidian Comparative Phonology (1983), p. 422-423
>says the following.
>
>"Different symbols are used for its transcription by different authors: r_dia-
>b is used by Burrow and Emeneau (DED(S) and other works), z_dot-b by Ramaswami
>Aiyar (1938) and Krishnamurti (1958b and subsequent works only in writing the
>reconstructed forms), l by Narasimhia,  l_macr-b by Tamil lexicon, P. S.
>Subrahmanya Sastri, L. V. Ramaswami Aiyar and Krishnamurti (1961), l_dia-b by
>A.C. Sekhar and G. S. Gai and r_dot-b by Zvelebil and Pfeiffer. As remarked by
>Emeneau (loc.cit,) it is futile to argue which symbol is correct. l_macr-b is
>used in the present work mainly because of convenience in typing and printing.
>As pointed out by Burrow (1968b) Krishnamurti's practice of writing z_dot-b
>for this sound in the reconstructed forms in order to distinguish it from the
>corresponding sound in Tamil-Malayalam and KannaDa (this reason was stated by
>Krishnamurti) has little justification since there is no evidence that the
>concerned proto-sound is phonetically different from the corresponding sound
>in Tamil-Malayalam."
>
>Contrary to what Krishnamurti says, Kamil Zvelebil in his writings on Tamil
>literature uses l_macr-b (eg. The Smile of Murugan, 1973, E. J. Brill,  Tamil
>Traditions on Subrahmanya-Murugan, 1991, Institute of Asian Studies) V. S.
>Rajam's A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, 1992, American
>Philosophical Society also uses l_macr-b.
>
>The Tamil Lexicon's l_macr-b was adopted in 1936.  Ramaswami Aiyar used z_dot-
>b in 1938. Thus in terms of their history they are virtually identical. But
>l_macr-b is being used more widely than z_dot-b til today.
>
>If one goes to any library with South Asian collection, the number of books
>dealing with Dravidian linguistics using z_dot-b will be relatively few. The
>number of books dealing with different Indological fields such as literature,
>religion, archeology, history, etc. using Tamil materials using l_macr-b will
>be considerably more.  Examples are John Carman and Vasudha Narayanan's Tamil
>Veda , 1984, University of Chicago Press, Asko Parpola's Deciphering the Indus
>Script, 1994, Cambridge University Press, Rajeshwari Ghose's The Lord of Arur:
>The Tyagaraja Cult in Tamilnadu, 1996, Motilal Banarasidass.
>
>Vidyanath Rao wrote:
>>For those who know Tamil/Malayalam, the actual symbol makes little
>>difference; humans can get used to almost anything. I no longer
>>blanch when I see z for "s.  But for others,
>>z-underdot may be too confusing:
>
>I agree with this in general with one minor exception. As Rao said, many
>ordinary Tamils would identify 'zh' used in commonly-encountered words
>correctly. However I have heard them when they come across a word which they
>have not encountered ordinarily, and they mispronounce it so badly any lover
>of Tamil would cringe. I expect the same will happen with z_dot-b also. But as
>Emeneau stated, it is futile to argue which is the "correct" one. My criterion
>would be to choose one which causes the least number of people to change their
>system.
>
>One note about Tamil borrowing of Sanskrit words with "S". While there are a
>few cases where IA "S" is replaced by Tamil l_macr-b, most of the time "S" is
>replaced by "T"  as in meSa > mETam, veSa > vETam, etc.
>
>Right now when diacritic marks are not used in writing, the word "Tamil_macr-
>b" is written just without the macron  as "Tamil" and there is not much of a
>difference between the two. But, if one were to follow the suggestion of
>z_dot-b, are we going to end up with two different ways "Tamiz" and "Tamil"?
>If the goal is to bring uniformity, this will actually work against it. It is
>going to cause more confusion.
>
>Regards
>S. Palaniappan
>
>
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Tue Jun 16 14:23:21 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 15:23:21 +0100
Subject: saras 2
In-Reply-To: <v01510102b1aaa01fe3d9@[199.201.159.75]>
Message-ID: <161227039863.23782.2115458587485455637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Since you mention a (forthcoming?) book by E.G. Kahrs,
I figure it is not out of place to mention an article by E.G.Kahrs
due to appear this june in the journal "Histoire, Epist?mologie, Langage"
(together with contributions by M. Deshpande, J. Bronkhorst,
P.-S. Filliozat, F. Zimmermann, & J.-L. Chevillard;)
[HEL, Tome XX, Fascicule 1, 1997; ISSN 0750-8069 ]

Kahrs's paper title is:
L'interpr?tation et la tradition indienne du Nirukta

This was his contribution to a "colloque"
organized in Paris in january 1995:
"Grammaires Indiennes: Th?orie et Histoire"
[It was advertized on this list]

[Usual disclaimer: ....]

A 05:30 15/06/98 -0500,
vous (George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET>) avez ?crit :

>My questions to the list's Nirukta-ziSTas:
>
>1. How to explain the presence of *saras* at Naig. 1.11?
>
>2. Are there other RV [or other] passages that might better justify this
>inclusion that RV 7.103.7?
>
>3. Is this not typical of Nirukta, also well-known for its inconsistent,
>seemingly ad hoc etymologies?
>
>4. Can the Nirukta be legitimately used as a source for lexical glosses
>such as Dominique is seeking in this thread?
>
>[P.S. I understand the book _Indian Semantic Analysis_, by E Kahrs, may be
>available soon. Can anyone confirm this? Is this a translation of the book
>of Kahrs discussed a year or two ago on the list, or is it something new?].
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>George Thompson
>




From lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK  Tue Jun 16 14:29:53 1998
From: lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK (Simon John Haines)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 15:29:53 +0100
Subject: Tipu Sultan
In-Reply-To: <199806121609.RAA18557@unixa.lancs.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227039865.23782.888563601938541960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings ...
As i am having some problem locating good texts on Tipu Sultan, i was
wondering if anyone could recommend anything ?
Any help would be greatly appreciated ...
Regards
Simon Haines




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jun 16 15:54:04 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 16:54:04 +0100
Subject: saras 2
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980616161432.2e5ff208@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <161227039870.23782.16594354270730195124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote:

> Since you mention a (forthcoming?) book by E.G. Kahrs, ...

The book, entitled Indian Semantic Analysis: the Nirvacana Tradition, is
due out from Cambridge University Press later this year.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From emstern at NNI.COM  Tue Jun 16 20:54:36 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 16:54:36 -0400
Subject: help: sangitaratnakara
In-Reply-To: <00ad01bd9955$80771680$c3a52ec3@alexande>
Message-ID: <161227039891.23782.4846849507462091982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>     Could somebody cite, please, the first two slokas of
>"Sangitaratnakara", as the copy that I have got lacks several  pages.
>Thank you beforehand.   Alexandre Elizariev

brahmagranthijamArutAnugatinA cittena hRtyaGkaje
sUrINAmanu raJjakaH zrutipadaM yo'yaM svayaM rAjate |
yasmAdgrAmavibhAgavarNaracanAlaGkArajAtikramo
vande nAdatanuM tamuddhurajagadgItaM mude zaGkaram ||1||

asti svastigRhaM vaMzaH zrImatkAzmIrasambhavaH |
RServRSagaNAjjAtaH kIrttikSAlitadiGmukhaH ||2||

(from Adyar Library Series No. 30, ed. S. Subrahmanya Sastri)


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH  Tue Jun 16 17:09:53 1998
From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 18:09:53 +0100
Subject: Tipu Sultan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980616152632.20185A-100000@suma3.reading.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227039872.23782.4104904479910993686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Greetings ...
>As i am having some problem locating good texts on Tipu Sultan, i was
>wondering if anyone could recommend anything ?
>Any help would be greatly appreciated ...
>Regards
>Simon Haines


A friend of mine has recently produced an interesting article on some
aspects of Tipu Sultan's cruelty to the Christians of South Kanara. He has
also collected a good bibliography. You might contact him:
ab875 at freenet.carleton.ca (Mohan Prabhu). All the best.

Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous
sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful
sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole
sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy

INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
Universit? de Fribourg
Route du Jura
CH-1700 Fribourg
Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
        026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
Fax;    026/ 300 9768

URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr

Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK        




From msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL  Tue Jun 16 16:22:06 1998
From: msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Daniel Baum)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 19:22:06 +0300
Subject: Suggestion for new Indo-Iranian linguistics mailing list
Message-ID: <161227039875.23782.12357111126955488754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If anyone would be interested in subscribing to, and participating in, a new
list, devoted to Indo-Iranian linguistics i.e. Vedic and Avestan phonology,
morphology, syntax and text linguistics, etc. I would be willing to set it
up and look after it.

I personally, as an (apprentice) Indo-Iranist and Vedicist have always felt
that such a list is missing. If anyone else feels the same, I would be happy
to fill the gap.


Daniel Baum
msdbaum at mscc.huji.ac.il
Home Page http://www.angelfire.com/il/dbaum
Tel: ++972-2-583-6634; Mob. ++972-51-972-829




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Tue Jun 16 18:51:52 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 20:51:52 +0200
Subject: Suggestion for new Indo-Iranian linguistics mailing list
Message-ID: <161227039886.23782.9484556865161325628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



If anyone would be interested in subscribing to, and participating in, a new
list, devoted to Indo-Iranian linguistics i.e. Vedic and Avestan phonology,
morphology, syntax and text linguistics, etc. I would be willing to set it
up and look after it.

I personally, as an (apprentice) Indo-Iranist and Vedicist have always felt
that such a list is missing. If anyone else feels the same, I would be happy
to fill the gap.


Daniel Baum
msdbaum at mscc.huji.ac.il
Home Page http://www.angelfire.com/il/dbaum
Tel: ++972-2-583-6634; Mob. ++972-51-972-829

Yes! I'd like to participate in such a list devoted to I.I. linguistics. A month ago, I defended my Ph.D. thesis on an authorship analysis (The Bhasa Problem). To reach my conclusions, I applied a model of Generative Grammar, based on amongst others Chomsky 1985. I used this model to establish coincidence between metrical and syntactical, which yielded a range of figures and patterns with the help of which I tried to tackle the authorship problem. However, as already a not too developed model of G.G. was sufficient, many problems remained. And now I'd like to have a closer look at specific Sanskrit problems regarding Deep and Surface Structure models. Unfortunately I hardly find anything in this direction on the present list.

So, if you set up a linguistic list, I'll join your wing.

Dr. A.A.E. van der Geer (Sandra)
Boerhaavelaan 98
2334 ET Leiden
The Netherlands
e-mail: info at ticonsole.nl
http://www.ticonsole.nl/books
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From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Wed Jun 17 01:16:46 1998
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 21:16:46 -0400
Subject: help: sangitaratnakara
Message-ID: <161227039896.23782.2517851062895985534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If I remember right,  this is the first verse of the Sangiitaratnaakara
is:

brahmagranthija maarutaanugatinaa cittena hrtpankaje
suurinaam anugata s'rutipadamyoyam svayam raajate
yasmaadgraamavibhaaga varNa racanaalankaara jaati kramo
vande nada tanum tamuddhura jagatgitam mude s'ankaram

-Srini.

Alexandre V. Elizariev wrote:

>    Part 1.1       Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
>               Encoding: quoted-printable




From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP  Tue Jun 16 13:16:45 1998
From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 22:16:45 +0900
Subject: Tipu Sultan
Message-ID: <161227039929.23782.8309948762522509975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anand Nayak wrote:
>
> >Greetings ...
> >As i am having some problem locating good texts on Tipu Sultan, i was
> >wondering if anyone could recommend anything ?
> >Any help would be greatly appreciated ...
> >Regards
> >Simon Haines

Another recent publication on Tipu Sultan is:

Kate Brittlebank: Tipu Sultan's Search for Legitimacy: Islam and
Kingship in a Hindu Domain. New Delhi 1997: Oxford University Press.

I can't personally recommend it, as it was only recommended to me and I
haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but, as the saying goes, it
might be of interest ...

regards,

--
birgit kellner
department for indian philosophy
hiroshima university


--
birgit kellner
department for indian philosophy
hiroshima university




From vlelizar at CITYLINE.RU  Tue Jun 16 18:34:28 1998
From: vlelizar at CITYLINE.RU (Alexandre V. Elizariev)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 22:34:28 +0400
Subject: help: sangitaratnakara
Message-ID: <161227039883.23782.9080518985873071073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could somebody cite, please, the first two slokas of "Sangitaratnakara", as the copy that I have got lacks several pages.
Thank you beforehand.

Alexandre Elizariev


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From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 17 03:45:35 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 22:45:35 -0500
Subject: Random cultural oddity?
In-Reply-To: <MAPI.Id.0016.00616e62727a20203030303630303036@MAPI.to.RFC822>
Message-ID: <161227039968.23782.11880143107475246378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

with shame at my bad typing (horrid Skt.??):  of course, vyAghra  (and
maybe it means something too that I lost my aspiration...?)

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Jun 17 06:29:35 1998
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 23:29:35 -0700
Subject: saras 2
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b1abb25bff58@[134.59.129.67]>
Message-ID: <161227039900.23782.13020015522692774608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

>It could be perhaps useful to have the Sanskrit text,

>"with reference to these" being the key.


Although George already posted the Skt. for NighaNTu 1.11 and Nirukta
2.23, I am pasting it all together here along with a few more details
on VAc, for easy reference.


NighaNTu 1.11:


zlokaH | dhArA | ifA [f = Vedic L]| gauH | gaurI | gandharvI | gabhIrA
| gambhIrA | mandrA | mandrAjanI | vAzI | vANI | vANIcI | vANaH | paviH
| bhAratI | dhamaniH | nAfI [in some MSS nIliH] | mefiH | menA [in some
MSS meniH]| sUryA | sarasvatI | nivit | svAhA | vagnuH [in some MSS
gagnuH] | upabdiH | mAyuH | kAkut [in some MSS kAkup] | jihvA | ghoSaH
| svaraH | zabdaH | svanaH | Rk | hotrA | gIH | gAthA | gaNaH | dhenA |
gnAH [in some MSS gnA] | vipA | nanA [in some MSS nagnA] | kazA |
dhiSaNA | nauH | akSaram | mahI | aditiH | zacI | vAk | anuSTup |
dhenuH | valguH [in some MSS vagnuH] | galdA | saraH [in some MSS
rasaH] | suparNI | bekurA-iti saptapaJcAzadvAGnAmAni || 11 ||


George:

"p.s. I wonder if there is any significance to the variant reading for
saras: rasaH."


Out of the above 57 names of vAc, Nirukta elaborates only on one:
sarasvatI, which "is [the only one] used both in the sense of 'a river'
and of 'a deity' in Vedic passages" (nadIvad devatAvacca nigamA
bhavanti).

As I see it, this is the sense of "whith reference to these," which is
L.S.'s translation of *tatra* in Nir. 2.23 below.


Nirukta 2.23:


vAGnAmAnyuttarANi saptapaJcAzat | vAk kasmAd | vaceH | tatra
sarasvatItyetasya nadIvad devatAvacca nigamA bhavanti | tad yad
devatAvadupariSTAt tad vyAkhyAsyAmaH | athaitannadIvat || 23 ||


L. Sarup's (complete) translation of Nirukta 2.23:


'The following fifty-seven (words) [in the NighaNTu] are synonyms of
speech. From what (root) is vAc (speech) derived? It is derived from
(the root) vac (to speak). With reference to these, the word SarasvatI
is used both in the sense of 'a river' and of 'a deity' in Vedic
passages; we shall explain the (Vedic passages) where it is used in the
sense of a deity later, and just now those where it is used in the
sense of a river" [trans. L. S.]


Nirukta 11.26-29:


[quote: RV 1.3.10]

pAvakA naH sarasvatI | annairannavatI | yajJaM vaSTu dhiyAvasuH
karmavasuH | tasyA eSAparA bhavati || 26 ||

"May SarasvatI, who purifies, who possesses large stores of food, and
who is rich in devotion, like our sacrifices [RV 1.3.10 trans. L.S.]

"May SarasvatI, our purifier, having abundant stores of food, and rich
in devotion, i.e. in acts of worship, like the sacrifice" [Nir. 11.26
trans. L.S.]


[Note on RV 1.3.10-12: Geldner says that stanzas 10 & 11 refer to the
goddess of sacred speech, whereas stanza 12, in his opinion, refers to
the river goddess.]


[quote: RV 1.3.12]

mahadarNaH sarasvatI pracetayati prajJApayati ketunA karmaNA prajJayA
vA | imAni ca sarvANiprajJAnAnyabhivirAjati | vAgartheSu vidhIyate |
tasmAnmAdhyamikAM vAcaM manyante | vAgvyAkhyAtA | tasyA eSA bhavati ||
27 ||


"With her banner SarasvatI makes the great ocean manifest. She presides
over all devotions [RV 1.3.12 trans. L.S.]

"With her banner, i.e. with her activity or wisdom, SarasvatI makes the
great ocean manifest, i.e. causes it to be known. She presides over all
these sacrifices. This is applied to the objects of speech; speech is
therefore regarded as belonging to the sphere of the atmosphere.

"Speech has been explained [at Nir. 2.23]. The following stanza is
addressed to her" [Nir. 11.27 trans. L.S.]


[quote: RV 8.100.10]

yadvAgvadanti | avicetanAnyavijJAtAni | rASTrI devAnAM niSasAda (or:
mandrA) madanA | catasro 'nudiza UrjaM duduhe
payA<underline>M</underline>si | kva svidasyAH paramaM jagAmeti |
yatpRthivIM gacchatIti vA | yadAdityarazmayo harantIti vA tasyA eSaparA
bhavati || 28 ||


"When vAc, speaking unknown words sat down as the charming queen of the
gods, the four milked food and milk, but where did her best portion go?
[RV 8.100.10 trans. L.S.]

"When VAc, speaking unknown, i.e. unintelligible, words sat down as the
(charming) pleasant queen of the gods, all the four quarters milked
food and waters. But where did her best portion go? It may be that
which goes to the earth or that which is taken away by the rays of the
sun. The following, another stanza, is addressed to her" [Nir. 11.28
trans. L.S.]


[quote: RV 8.100.11]

devIM vAcamajanayanta devAH | tAM sarvarUpAH pazavo vadanti |
vyaktavAcazcAvyaktavAcazca | sA no madanAnnaM ca rasaM ca duhAnA
dhenurvAgasmAnupaitu suSTutA | [...] || 29 ||


"The gods generated divine speech. Animals of all shapes speak it. May
that charming milch cow, in the form of speech bestowing on us
strength-giving food, easily approach us [ RV 8.100.11 trans. L.S.]

"The gods generated the goddess VAc. Animals of all shapes speak it,
i.e. animals whose sounds are articulate and those whose sounds are
inarticulate. May that pleasant milch cow, in the form of VAc bestowing
food and juice on us, easily approach us" [Nir. 11.29 trans. L.S.]


I hope this facilitates the conversation.


Beatrice Reusch

University of California, Berkeley
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From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 17 04:24:21 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 00:24:21 -0400
Subject: Stomach/womb in Dravidian and -y-/-c- alternation
Message-ID: <161227039898.23782.5460562976279752664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-15 04:52:27 EDT, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes:

<<I fail to see how a verse from a medieval poet
 (what is your date for kampan2?
  9th century? 10th century? 12th century?)
 can be taken as a proof (or an argument inside a proof)
 that two words are related? [vayiRu and vai]

 IMHO, what we see here in these lines
 is not an etymological explaination
 but an example of moon2ai,
 i.e. a kind of alliteration between the first syllable of the line
 and the first syllable of some other foot in the same line. >>


There is a very basic relationship between "mOn2ai" and etymology.

The first point is that both have a phonological basis. According to V. S.
Rajam?s "A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry" (p. 191-193), "Four
basic types of toTai are recognized: mOn2ai, etukai, iyaipu, and muraN. Among
these, the first three are phonological ...A subsequent type of these sub-
categorical alliterations is an an2u alliteration which treats the vowels or
consonants which have the same or closest points of articulation as a class.
For this purpose, a, A, ai, and au form a class, as do i, I, e, and E; u, U,
o, and O; c and t; J and n; and m and v." The Tamil grammarians? groupings
show possible results of phonological changes one would find in etymologically
related words. Of course, they were just describing what the poets had used
before them. Of course, etymology is based on phonology also.

Secondly, mOn2ai deals with the left-most part of a word - precisely where the
etymological roots of Dravidian words are. So it is not a coincidence that we
are dealing with mOn2ai when we are exploring the etymological relationships.

However the type of mOn2ai that will suggest probable etymological
relationship is one with the same (C1) v/VC2 occurring in two feet. (In some
cases where a long vowel is present, C2 may not be necessary like some cases
we had discussed earlier in the list.) For the purposes of alliteration, a
vowel ai can be taken as equivalent to ay-. (Anyway it is reconstructed as
PDr. *ay). See the example below

kaiyatu kELA aLavai oyyen2a             (porunarARRuppaTai 152)

The same feature can be found in a post-Kampan work shown below.

aiya in2n2um ik kuRaL paci aTaGkiTA vERu
veyya pAriTa vIrarai viTuttiyEl eTuttu
vaiyam yAvaiyum vayiRRiTai vaipparE atan2Al
ceyya kAla ruttirap peyar tERRam Am un2akkE (tiruviLaiyATal purANam 7.19.1-4)

But for real etymological relationship, mere mOn2ai relationship may not be
always sufficient. One can have mOn2ais as shown below

kallA iLaijnar kavaLam kaippa
kal tOyttu uTutta paTiva pArppAn2               (mullaippATTu 36-37)

Here the mOn2ai on kal offers no semantic connection between the two feet on
successive lines. What is needed for an etymological relationship is one
metrical foot of the mOn2ai relationship (with the same (C1)v/VC2)
representing a noun being modified/described by the other metrical foot as an
adjective or verb. This is as close as one can get to a real etymological
explanation of the involved words.  Some examples of such cases are shown
below.

The following lines show the same cognate words being used in mOn2ai by both
CT and Kampan2.

veLLi an2n2a viLagkum cutai uRIi     (neTunalvATai 110)

veLLi mAlvarai en2n2a viLagkuvAn2  (kamparAmAyaNam  4.10.19.4)

The common meaning is something "shines like silver"

DEDR 5496
veLLi - silver
viLaGku - to shine

Another example is given below.

polam tEr micai polivu tOn2Ri                                  (puRanAn2URu
4.14)

polam koL mAmaNi veLLi am kun2Ru en2ap poliya (kamparAmAyaNam 5.12.38.4)

DED 3717
poli - to bloom (as countenance), shine
polam - gold
polivu - brightness of countenance,beauty, splendour, gold

In the above pair, the cognates are more closely linked in the second.


Finally consider this. Here the shining bangles are described using the words
el and ilaGku.

cuTarntu ilagku el vaLai nekiznta nam vayin2            (akanAn2URu 68.12)

The same pair of words are also used by Kampan.

el iTap pacumpon2 vaittu ilagku pal maNik kulam  (kamparAmAyaNam 1.3.24.2)

DED 707
el - lustre
ilaGku - shine

Thus it does not matter which century Kampan belongs to. What is important is
the unique way in which the nature of mOn2ai, the nature of Dravidian root,
and the linked manner in which the words have been used in poetry can be used
to derive the etymology. Please note that in the examples I had shown in my
earlier posting, the verbs vai, vaiku, and vaikuRu indeed describe the nature
of vayiRu. In the tiruviLaiyATal purANam example cited above, one can see the
vayiRu as a place to keep (vai) the earth (vaiyam), where vaiyam  and vai are
cognates (DEDR 5549).

Even beyond this, the cognates of Ta. vayiRu , i.e, Ma. vayaRu receptacle of
fruit-seeds, Ka. hold of a ship make it very clear that vayiRu is some place
where things are kept. Moreover the receptacle of fruit-seeds clearly gives a
symbolic parallel to the womb. Thus the etymology explains how the meanings
"put, place, keep" and "bear, beget" are related. (Ta. vayiRu also means "hold
of a ship")

Regards

S. Palaniappan




From vlelizar at CITYLINE.RU  Tue Jun 16 23:02:46 1998
From: vlelizar at CITYLINE.RU (Alexandre V. Elizariev)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 03:02:46 +0400
Subject: help: sangitaratnakara
Message-ID: <161227039894.23782.1352354828961720087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you very much!
Alexandre


-----Original Message-----
From: Elliot Stern <emstern at NNI.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: 17 ???? 1998 ?. 0:54
Subject: Re: help: sangitaratnakara


>>     Could somebody cite, please, the first two slokas of
>>"Sangitaratnakara", as the copy that I have got lacks several  pages.
>>Thank you beforehand.   Alexandre Elizariev
>
>brahmagranthijamArutAnugatinA cittena hRtyaGkaje
>sUrINAmanu raJjakaH zrutipadaM yo'yaM svayaM rAjate |
>yasmAdgrAmavibhAgavarNaracanAlaGkArajAtikramo
>vande nAdatanuM tamuddhurajagadgItaM mude zaGkaram ||1||
>
>asti svastigRhaM vaMzaH zrImatkAzmIrasambhavaH |
>RServRSagaNAjjAtaH kIrttikSAlitadiGmukhaH ||2||
>
>(from Adyar Library Series No. 30, ed. S. Subrahmanya Sastri)
>
>
>Elliot M. Stern
>552 South 48th Street
>Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
>USA
>
>telephone: 215 747 6204
>




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 11:01:47 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 04:01:47 -0700
Subject: anvaya-vyatireka
Message-ID: <161227039920.23782.1691790401758068609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sankara (in Upadesasahasri) and his discipe, Suresvara (in
Naishkarmyasiddhi) use a technique of anvaya-vyatireka to establish the
identity taught in the sentence, tat tvam asi. Naiyyayikas and
Vaiyakaranikas also use this technique, the former to establish a vyApti
between hetu and sAdhya, the latter in the context of word meanings. The
early Advaita usage seems similar to the grammarian usage, but there
also seem to be some unique features to it. In later Advaita, starting
as early as Padmapada, another disciple of Sankara, and Sarvajnatman
(supposedly Suresvara's disciple, but this can be disputed), the
anvaya-vyatireka method is ignored, and the jahad-ajahal-lakshaNA method
is developed.

I would be very grateful if somebody can point me to literature in the
Advaita usage of these terms. Mayeda's translation of the Upadesasahasri
(SUNY, 1992) has a brief description (pp. 50-56), and I'm aware of
studies by Cardona, Staal, Scharfe and van Buitenen, that are given in
his references. I am more interested in seeing detailed studies on the
usage of this method Sankara and Suresvara, as also studies on the
presence or otherwise of anvaya-vyatireka in significant post-Sankaran
authors, e.g. Vacaspati Misra, Prakasatman, Vimuktatman, Citsukha,
Sriharsha etc. As far as I'm aware, the Pancadasi of Bharatitirtha &
Vidyaranya seems to be the only later work that uses this method, but
then, these two authors represent, in many senses, a renewal of the
Advaita tradition in the early 14th century. There is also a conscious
attempt in this work at reconciling the diverging views of the bhAmatI
and vivaraNa sub-schools. What about the intervening six centuries or
more?

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 17 05:41:56 1998
From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 06:41:56 +0100
Subject: anvaya-vyatireka
In-Reply-To: <19980617110147.14394.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227039922.23782.11348268447044404899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See Datta, Six Ways of Knowing p. 220ff; Phyllis Granoff Philosophy and
Argument in Late Vedanta (many pages);
John

>Sankara (in Upadesasahasri) and his discipe, Suresvara (in
>Naishkarmyasiddhi) use a technique of anvaya-vyatireka to establish the
>identity taught in the sentence, tat tvam asi. Naiyyayikas and
>Vaiyakaranikas also use this technique, the former to establish a vyApti
>between hetu and sAdhya, the latter in the context of word meanings. The
>early Advaita usage seems similar to the grammarian usage, but there
>also seem to be some unique features to it. In later Advaita, starting
>as early as Padmapada, another disciple of Sankara, and Sarvajnatman
>(supposedly Suresvara's disciple, but this can be disputed), the
>anvaya-vyatireka method is ignored, and the jahad-ajahal-lakshaNA method
>is developed.
>
>I would be very grateful if somebody can point me to literature in the
>Advaita usage of these terms. Mayeda's translation of the Upadesasahasri
>(SUNY, 1992) has a brief description (pp. 50-56), and I'm aware of
>studies by Cardona, Staal, Scharfe and van Buitenen, that are given in
>his references. I am more interested in seeing detailed studies on the
>usage of this method Sankara and Suresvara, as also studies on the
>presence or otherwise of anvaya-vyatireka in significant post-Sankaran
>authors, e.g. Vacaspati Misra, Prakasatman, Vimuktatman, Citsukha,
>Sriharsha etc. As far as I'm aware, the Pancadasi of Bharatitirtha &
>Vidyaranya seems to be the only later work that uses this method, but
>then, these two authors represent, in many senses, a renewal of the
>Advaita tradition in the early 14th century. There is also a conscious
>attempt in this work at reconciling the diverging views of the bhAmatI
>and vivaraNa sub-schools. What about the intervening six centuries or
>more?
>
>Vidyasankar
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Wed Jun 17 11:59:24 1998
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 07:59:24 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039924.23782.8905154274625508846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Collegues

I believe the issues are becoming clearer.  On June 15, 1998, S Palaniappan
wrote:

>P. S. Subrahmanyam in his Dravidian Comparative Phonology (1983), 
>p. 422-423 says the following.
>
>"Different symbols are used for its transcription by different authors:...
>As remarked by Emeneau (loc.cit,) it is futile to argue which symbol is 
>correct.   l_macr-b is used in the present work mainly because of 
>convenience in typing and printing. As pointed out by Burrow (1968b) 
>Krishnamurti's practice of writing z_dot-b for this sound in the 
>reconstructed forms in order to distinguish it from the corresponding 
>sound in Tamil-Malayalam and KannaDa (this reason was stated by 
>Krishnamurti) has little justification since there is no evidence that the

>concerned proto-sound is phonetically different from the corresponding 
>sound in Tamil-Malayalam."
...

>Thus in terms of their history they are virtually identical. But l_macr-b
is 
>being used more widely than z_dot-b til today.
>
>My criterion would be to choose one which causes the least number 
>of people to change their system.

That is indeed something to take into account.

[As a footnote:]

>Right now when diacritic marks are not used in writing, the word 
>"Tamil_macr- b" is written just without the macron  as "Tamil" and 
>there is not much of a difference between the two. But, if one were 
>to follow the suggestion of z_dot-b, are we going to end up with two 
>different ways  "Tamiz" and "Tamil"? If the goal is to bring uniformity, 
>this will actually work against it. It is going to cause more confusion.

"Tamil" is a well established form in English.   One may see "Tamizh"
already, but there would be no real need for "Tamiz" to come in.   (The
standard is not going to suggest a simplified transliteration with the
diacritics simply omitted.    Without diacritics,  Tamil .t usually becomes
t and t becomes th.   Also .s usually becomes sh and "s becomes either sh
or s.)

[end of footnote]
---

On June 16, 1998, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote:

>I do not care what Palaniappan uses for Tamil. For Proto-Dravidian, 
>z-subdot makes better sense. As already pointed out by prof. Antony P. 
>Stone, subbar is used for alevolars consistently, _n, _r, _t. Let us not 
>confuse transliteration between Tamil and Proto-Dravidian. Let Tamil 
>scholars continue to use whatever they want. I appeal to Dr. Stone to 
>provide z-subdot for the benefit of those who decide  to use it.  . . .
> . . .
>If Tamil scholars think that the phonetics of _l and PD *.z are the same 
>(I do not know on what evidence!), they can use either of  their pet
symbols. 

Now I am getting things clear in my mind!   The proposed standard is
required to deal with the transliteration of written symbols in actual
scripts.    As I understand it, treatment of PD is in fact transcription
[of sounds], which will  *not*  be covered by the standard.    So I see two
possibilities:

(A) l_macr-b in the standard.   This allows z_dot-b to be used for the PD
phoneme if a  distinction is desired.    

(B) z_dot-b in the standard.   No such scope. 
---

On June 16, 1998, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote:

>For people who, like me, are more interested in the study of (real?, 
>attested?, not-too-much-reconstructed?) Tamil literature (medieval, 
>classical, modern) than in general (or comparative) dravidian studies, 
>there seems to be no point in changing the transliteration scheme, 
>even though one can always adapt oneself.
>
>So, from this angle, the answer seems: 
>1st choice: keep l-sub-macron 
>2nd choice: if the majority wants it, accept z-subdot 
>3rd choice: do your best to avoid the clumsy r-double-subdot  (or
l-double-subdot !!!)

Certainly the forms with two dots below are ruled out on readability
considerations.

I do not see any majority wanting z_dot-b for transliteration of scripts as
opposed to transcription of sounds.   I myself noticed the logical aspects
in its favour, but they are not decisive.    It now looks to me as if
l_macr-b might be best for transliteration, but I wait for responses to
this posting.  

Regards,   Tony

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
Indic scripts.   
20 Harding Close, Redbourn, St Albans, Herts, AL3 7NT, UK.     Tel: +44 (0)
1582 792 497
Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com                             Thinking
aloud on  transliteration:
   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Wed Jun 17 17:20:04 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 09:20:04 -0800
Subject: Random cultural oddity?
In-Reply-To: <v03020900b1ac42d78ef2@[130.132.186.73]>
Message-ID: <161227039935.23782.9099258037425535438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For some weeks I have been saying to my family that Viagra looks suspicioulsy close to vyaaghra 'tiger.' However, I have not been energetic enough to investigate how the drug was named. (Could it be because I did not take Viagra?) -- ashok aklujkar

At 10:44 -0500 16-06-98, jonathan silk wrote:
>I haven't seen mention of this anywhere (but then, I haven't been looking
>either)
>
>So, I wondered:  Am I the only one who noticed this and thought it ...
>interesting:
>
>vyAgra :: Viagra
>
>Surely this is more than a coincidence?
>
>In a lighter mood, jonathan
>
>Jonathan SILK
>
>****Note New Email Address***:
>
>jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Wed Jun 17 17:27:15 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 09:27:15 -0800
Subject: anvaya-vyatireka
In-Reply-To: <19980617110147.14394.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227039937.23782.4140608246433129621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Must the anvaya-vyatireka method and the jahad-ajahal-lak.s.naa method be seen as mutually exclusive? After all, the anvaya-vyatireka method is essentially the basic scientific method of changing one variable at a time and seeing what the outcome is. -- ashok aklujkar




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jun 17 13:49:58 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 09:49:58 -0400
Subject: Romantic India -Reply
Message-ID: <161227039941.23782.15606244856948155851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Holst's Savitri is a brief opera in English.  I can tell it is brief because in
looking at a sample of the 36 hits for author Holst and title Savitri on OCLC
it is usually just part of a single disk or tape.  I don't have access to any
online audio catalog so don't know if it's currently available.  Amazon.com
has just brought up an audio section but doesn't include classical music yet.

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jun 17 13:53:10 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 09:53:10 -0400
Subject: romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039939.23782.5218268401879258597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is also Olivier Messiaen's Turanga-lila Symphony.

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From kishore at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Wed Jun 17 18:53:38 1998
From: kishore at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kishore Krishna)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 11:53:38 -0700
Subject: Tipu Sultan
In-Reply-To: <3586703D.5A208B31@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <161227039947.23782.13146608954949307711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On a slightly tangential note: Two Views of British India edited by Edward
Ingram provides a look at British strategy and objectives in India in
Tipu's time. It contains the correspondance of Henry Dundas who ran the
Board of Control of the East India Company in London and Lord Wellesley who
was the Governor General in India.

Kishore

At 10:16 PM 6/16/98 +0900, you wrote:
>Anand Nayak wrote:
>>
>> >Greetings ...
>> >As i am having some problem locating good texts on Tipu Sultan, i was
>> >wondering if anyone could recommend anything ?
>> >Any help would be greatly appreciated ...
>> >Regards
>> >Simon Haines
>
>Another recent publication on Tipu Sultan is:
>
>Kate Brittlebank: Tipu Sultan's Search for Legitimacy: Islam and
>Kingship in a Hindu Domain. New Delhi 1997: Oxford University Press.
>
>I can't personally recommend it, as it was only recommended to me and I
>haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but, as the saying goes, it
>might be of interest ...
>
>regards,
>
>--
>birgit kellner
>department for indian philosophy
>hiroshima university
>
>
>--
>birgit kellner
>department for indian philosophy
>hiroshima university
>




From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI  Wed Jun 17 09:54:25 1998
From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 11:54:25 +0200
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039902.23782.1022019539150743133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends
A few months ago someone briefly referred  to "Shubert's
opera Sakuntala". Finding the note I made then I have tried to check
it. Supposing Franz Schubert was meant, a list of his (nearly
forgotten) operas does not including anything Indian. Shubert I do
not know. There is at least one opera founded on KAlidAsa's play,
namely Franco Alfano's La leggenda di Sakuntala, premi?re at Bologna
town opera in 10.12.1921. Much earlier the Hungarian componist Karl
Goldmark composed a ZakuntalA ouverture, first performed in 1865.
There is further an opera about the VikamorvazIya by W. Kienzl,
performed in the 1880s "mit Erfolg" according to a contemporary
source. All these have been forgotten, I have not been able to hear a
note of them.There are also a few ballets on Indian themes, for
instance on ZakuntalA (music by S. Bachrich, performed in Vienna
1884; and another by Reyer, performed in Paris, I don't know when).
To these may be also added Elgar's Indian Suite, the only one I have
actually heard.
Strictly speaking, this is not Indology, but nevertheless an
interesting part of the Western conception of India. It would be
interesting to know, whether there are more examples.

Regards,
Klaus Karttunen




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jun 17 10:29:43 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 12:29:43 +0200
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039918.23782.12124910999111859249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:54 17.06.98 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear friends
>A few months ago someone briefly referred  to "Shubert's
>opera Sakuntala". Finding the note I made then I have tried to check
>it. Supposing Franz Schubert was meant, a list of his (nearly
>forgotten) operas does not including anything Indian. Shubert I do
>not know. There is at least one opera founded on KAlidAsa's play,
>namely Franco Alfano's La leggenda di Sakuntala, premi?re at Bologna
>town opera in 10.12.1921. Much earlier the Hungarian componist Karl
>Goldmark composed a ZakuntalA ouverture, first performed in 1865.
>There is further an opera about the VikamorvazIya by W. Kienzl,
>performed in the 1880s "mit Erfolg" according to a contemporary
>source. All these have been forgotten, I have not been able to hear a
>note of them.There are also a few ballets on Indian themes, for
>instance on ZakuntalA (music by S. Bachrich, performed in Vienna
>1884; and another by Reyer, performed in Paris, I don't know when).
>To these may be also added Elgar's Indian Suite, the only one I have
>actually heard.
>Strictly speaking, this is not Indology, but nevertheless an
>interesting part of the Western conception of India. It would be
>interesting to know, whether there are more examples.

I second that. Here is some more info on Western music inspired by India.

Gustav Holst (the guy with the Planets) actually learned a smattering of
Sanskrit because he wanted to set hymns from the Rigveda to music. This he
did in his opus 26, Hymns from the Rigveda, composed 1908-10. He also
composed a chamber opera called Savitri, but I have no info about it except
the name. Anyone else out there with such info? Is it available on CD?

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lpatton at EMORY.EDU  Wed Jun 17 17:46:49 1998
From: lpatton at EMORY.EDU (Laurie Patton)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 13:46:49 -0400
Subject: saras 2
In-Reply-To: <v01510102b1aaa01fe3d9@[199.201.159.75]>
Message-ID: <161227039943.23782.5946659489942128073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote,

> 4. Can the Nirukta be legitimately used as a source for lexical glosses
> such as Dominique is seeking in this thread?


In addition to E. Kahrs' volume forthcoming from Cambridge, there are also
older discussions of the question of the legitimacy of the Nirukta's
etymologies, which might be of interest in the history of Indology:

Hannes Skold, The Nirukta, its place in old Indian literature, its
etymologies (Lund: CWK Gleerup, 1926) Acta Regiae Societatis Humaniorum
Litterarum Ludensis 8)

Siddheshwar Varma, The etymologies of Yaska (Hoshiarpur: Vishveshvaranand
Institute Publications 1953)

Mantrini Prasad, Language of the Nirukta (Delhi: D K Publishing House,
1975)


Laurie L. Patton
Dept. of Religion
Emory University
Atlanta, GA 30322
PH: 404-727-5177
FAX: 404-727-7597




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 20:48:46 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 13:48:46 -0700
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039951.23782.17837113774518119757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Klaus Karttunen asks:

>Dear friends
>A few months ago someone briefly referred  to "Shubert's
>opera Sakuntala". Finding the note I made then I have tried to check
>it. Supposing Franz Schubert was meant, a list of his (nearly
>forgotten) operas does not including anything Indian. Shubert I do
>not know. There is at least one opera founded on KAlidAsa's play,
>namely Franco Alfano's La leggenda di Sakuntala, premi=E8re at Bologna
>town opera in 10.12.1921. Much earlier the Hungarian componist Karl
>Goldmark composed a ZakuntalA ouverture, first performed in 1865.
>There is further an opera about the VikamorvazIya by W. Kienzl,
>performed in the 1880s "mit Erfolg" according to a contemporary
>source. All these have been forgotten, I have not been able to hear a
>note of them.There are also a few ballets on Indian themes, for
>instance on ZakuntalA (music by S. Bachrich, performed in Vienna
>1884; and another by Reyer, performed in Paris, I don't know when).
>To these may be also added Elgar's Indian Suite, the only one I have
>actually heard.


In addition, Tchaikovsky has a small section in one of his operas(I
unfortunately don't remember the name of the opera), much like his
short sections on Arabic music( Coffee dance) or Chinese music(Tea?
dance) in the second part of "The Nutcracker suite". To my ears,
unfortunately the music did not sound Indian at all...


 sometime in the early 80s, there was a symphony composed with the name
"Satyagraha". This symphony describes the activities of Mahatma
Gandhi in S.Africa and consists mainly of verses of the Bhagavadgita
set to music. From an Indian point of view, it is a little difficult to
relate to the business of Mahatma Gandhi and KAsturba singing duets
, verses from the Bhagavadgita at that....

Last but not the least, there was some talk of a "Sitar Symphony"
sometime ago by Pandit Ravi Shankar...

Regards,
Krishna

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Wed Jun 17 12:07:17 1998
From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 14:07:17 +0200
Subject: Romantic India
In-Reply-To: <6BC788C7880@elo.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <161227039926.23782.13824525777450892512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have a video recording of Schubert's oper: Sakuntala, broadcast on German
Channel: 3Sat in late 80s/early 90s.

Regards,                        --Sreenivas

--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktpsp2.uni-paderborn.de
  sparuchuri at hotmail.com (in case of delivery problems at above address)




From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET  Wed Jun 17 21:22:19 1998
From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 14:22:19 -0700
Subject: Random cultural oddity?
In-Reply-To: <v04003a03b1ada7b20a74@[207.23.94.21]>
Message-ID: <161227039945.23782.13297986030084048162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I heard that it was formed from VItality and niAGARA.

>???From what I hear about it your Sanskrit folk etymology sounds more appropriate. Had you taken it, Ashok, you may not have been interested in investigating it, energetic or not.

Jan
----------
> For some weeks I have been saying to my family that Viagra looks suspicioulsy
> close to vyaaghra 'tiger.' However, I have not been energetic enough to
> investigate how the drug was named. (Could it be because I did not take
> Viagra?) -- ashok aklujkar
>
> At 10:44 -0500 16-06-98, jonathan silk wrote:
> >I haven't seen mention of this anywhere (but then, I haven't been looking
> >either)
> >
> >So, I wondered:  Am I the only one who noticed this and thought it ...
> >interesting:
> >
> >vyAgra :: Viagra
> >
> >Surely this is more than a coincidence?
> >
> >In a lighter mood, jonathan
> >
> >Jonathan SILK
> >
> >****Note New Email Address***:
> >
> >jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 21:56:06 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 14:56:06 -0700
Subject: anvaya-vyatireka
Message-ID: <161227039956.23782.14573810623033983940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Must the anvaya-vyatireka method and the jahad-ajahal-lak.s.naa method
be=
> seen as mutually exclusive? After all, the anvaya-vyatireka method is=
> essentially the basic scientific method of changing one variable at a
time=
> and seeing what the outcome is. -- ashok aklujkar

They are indeed quite compatible, and as Mayeda notes, Sankara's use of
anvaya-vyatireka does contain many features of the lak.sa.nA arguments
developed by Padmapada and others. But anvaya-vyatireka can also be
interpreted in a bhedAbheda sense, and later authors seem to stick to
the lak.sa.nA terminology. The examples used also change, from nIlA;sva
(Sankara) or nIlotpala (Suresvara) to so'yam devadattaH/pumAn (Padmapada
and later authors). So, my question is related more to one of style
and/or chronology - since Sankara and Suresvara seem to be the only
authors who use anvaya-vyatireka (to my knowledge), could this serve as
a criterion to test the traditional attribution of works which are
doubted in modern critical scholarship? Of course, this would depend on
the usage or otherwise in the works of other known authors, hence the
curiosity.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 17 22:02:23 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 15:02:23 -0700
Subject: Random cultural oddity?
Message-ID: <161227039958.23782.3351873191005845393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>It is reported by authentic sources that the formula for Viagra is
>contained in the last sutra of Panini's Astadhyayi.  He is reported to
>have died saying 'Viagra, Viagra', but evidently before someone would
>administer it to him.
>                        Madhav Deshpande

If he was an old man, his death was probably because he did take the
drug! He was trying to warn the world. :-))

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Jun 17 20:04:22 1998
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 16:04:22 -0400
Subject: Random cultural oddity?
In-Reply-To: <v04003a03b1ada7b20a74@[207.23.94.21]>
Message-ID: <161227039949.23782.1857513875752760837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is reported by authentic sources that the formula for Viagra is
contained in the last sutra of Panini's Astadhyayi.  He is reported to
have died saying 'Viagra, Viagra', but evidently before someone would
administer it to him.
                        Madhav Deshpande

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Ashok Aklujkar wrote:

> For some weeks I have been saying to my family that Viagra looks suspicioulsy close to vyaaghra 'tiger.' However, I have not been energetic enough to investigate how the drug was named. (Could it be because I did not take Viagra?) -- ashok aklujkar
>
> At 10:44 -0500 16-06-98, jonathan silk wrote:
> >I haven't seen mention of this anywhere (but then, I haven't been looking
> >either)
> >
> >So, I wondered:  Am I the only one who noticed this and thought it ...
> >interesting:
> >
> >vyAgra :: Viagra
> >
> >Surely this is more than a coincidence?
> >
> >In a lighter mood, jonathan
> >
> >Jonathan SILK
> >
> >****Note New Email Address***:
> >
> >jonathan.silk at yale.edu
>




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jun 17 21:29:16 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 17:29:16 -0400
Subject: Vidyanath Rao's request : locate perfect copy of book
Message-ID: <161227039953.23782.15361656601938723624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyanath Rao had an old request on Indology to locate a perfect copy of
A. Breunis, Nominal sentence in Sanskrit and Indo-Aryan.  I did not notice
that this ever got resolved on Indology.  The email address he used at the
time of that message (vidyanath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU) is no longer
valid.  At the time of his query the Library of Congress copy was missing
from the shelf.  Now it is back and I have it by me with the pages missing
from his library's copy.  Nath, if you still need these please contact me.

Allen Thrasher




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jun 17 21:33:05 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 17:33:05 -0400
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039954.23782.14215401827179045313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Satyagraha" is an opera by the highly popular "minimalist" composer
Philip Glass.

Allen Thrasher




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 17 23:57:39 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 19:57:39 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227039962.23782.6895947862016973768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-07 12:55:52 EDT, JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL writes:

<< For instance, ante quem for RV is relatively
 stronger and more direct (with converging iron and rice-argument) than post
 quem; still, in the absence of better alternatives I would accept the date
and
 search for additional evidence, all the while remaining open for attempts to
 establish an alternative date (which may further strengthen the accepted date
 when it flounders). >>

What is the current position of Vedic scholars with respect to the relative
dates of the text of the yajur veda vs the text of  RV and the relative dates
of the ideas in the YV vs ideas in the RV? I am interested in any updates of
Parpola's view that YV reflects a different tradition from RV, and "which
probably evolved in the Punjab and was incorporated in the Veda only during
the acculturation that may be assumed to have taken place after the descent of
the Rgvedic tradition from the Swat Valley." What are the possible dates for
the origin of agnicayana?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 18 04:05:42 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 23:05:42 -0500
Subject: Iranians in Ancient India
In-Reply-To: <AAeuBYr0o2@YV1041.spb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040012.23782.324226854474809629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Yaroslav ;

((I tried to email to your personal account but my mail was rejected.))

You wrote:

>I have now at my disposal a bibliography on the problem,

I -- and perhaps others too -- would be very interested in a copy of said
bibliography, if you would not mind sharing it.

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 18 03:17:21 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 23:17:21 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227039971.23782.5058384130927093001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-17 08:05:07 EDT, stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM writes:

<< "Tamil" is a well established form in English.   One may see "Tamizh"
 already, but there would be no real need for "Tamiz" to come in.   (The
 standard is not going to suggest a simplified transliteration with the
 diacritics simply omitted.    Without diacritics,  Tamil .t usually becomes
 t and t becomes th.   Also .s usually becomes sh and "s becomes either sh
 or s.) >>

But there is one context of relevance to scholars where this will happen. I am
talking about the computerized catalogs of libraries in US libraries and
possibly other countries using similar systems. For instance, I am listing an
item from the University of Texas at Austin's on-line library catalog.

Tiruvaymoli. / Nammalvar / Kancipuram / 1975-
BL 1226.3 N24 1975 V.1 PCL Stacks IN COLLECTIONS DEPOSIT LIB - ASK AT
CIRCULATION DESK

Please note that here no diacritic marks are possible. Dental "t" is just "t",
not "th". (In fact retroflex "T" will also be "t".) The l_macr-b letter is
just "l".  In fact, most of existing collections with titles with this letter
will be listed in the catalogs like this. If, according to the new standard,
they become z_dot-b, then the newer acquisitions will end up with lists
showing "-z-", while the old books will have -l-. Unless, the libraries modify
the software to automatically list both varieties, every time one searches for
an item with this letter in title (or even author) one will have to go through
twice as many steps. One has to search for items once with a title with -l-
and once with -z-. Allen Thrasher can probably add more to this.

Generally, life will be a lot simpler if we just continue with l_macr-b.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From barathi at PC.JARING.MY  Wed Jun 17 15:20:13 1998
From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 23:20:13 +0800
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227039933.23782.3977500841837776696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 07:23 AM 6/15/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Mary Storm wrote:
>>
>> > Can anyone recommend a good medical history of India, focusing not on
>> > modern issues, but more ca. A.D. 500-1500 ?


        Please try this list and ask if any material could
        be available.

        "H-NET List on the History of Science, Medicine, and Technology"

        Regards

        Jayabarathi


 ===========================================================================
========
>




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 18 04:01:45 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 00:01:45 -0400
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227039974.23782.5132267764785405801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In light of the on-going debate about the Aryan Migration Theory, I thought a
recent editorial (June 12, 1998) entitled Tampering with History from The
Hindu will be of interest to the scholars interested in archaeology,
revisionism in history, etc. I am quoting it below.

Regards
S. Palaniappan


"THE BJP GOVERNMENT'S decision to reconstitute the Indian Council for
Historical Research (ICHR), nominating persons who have supported the Sangh
Parivar's divisive campaign on the Ayodhya issue, suggests a disturbing effort
to
undermine the scientific temper that must serve as the basis for historical
enquiry. All the 18 nominated members who were hitherto part of the 25-member
Council - and all of them professional historians of repute - have been shown
the door. Even if it be true that they had completed their three-year term for
which they were appointed members of the Council and the prerogative for
making such appointments rests solely with the Ministry for Human Resource
Development, it is certainly cause for concern that most of those who have
been nominated were identified with the Sangh Parivar's partisan appropriation
and distorted representation of historical facts.

Leading the pack of the new nominees is Prof. B. B. Lal, a former Director-
General of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI); Prof. Lal had carried out
extensive excavations around the site where the Babri Masjid stood as part of
an ASI-sponsored project on the Ramayana sites; his initial conclusion was
that there was no evidence to suggest the ``historicity'' of the Ramayana from
the sites where he had carried out excavations. Yet, a few years later, when
the Ayodhya controversy was made into a vehicle for political mobilisation,
Prof. Lal began echoing the Sangh Parivar and even claimed to possess
``clinching'' evidence suggesting that the Babri Masjid stood on the ruins of
a Hindu temple. What is surprising in this case is that Prof. Lal did not care
to explain his ``new'' findings by way of facts obtained by him in the course
of the excavations. Interestingly, he even now refuses to hand over his field
diaries to the ASI and throw them open to fellow archaeologists; the field
diaries are an important source material for any serious and scientific
research in archaeology. Similarly, there are some known RSS pracharaks who
have been nominated members of the Council while historians of repute - all
those who had differed with the Sangh Parivar's views on Ayodhya as well as on
other aspects of historical research - have been refused renomination. This
suggests a more worrying game plan, given the Sangh Parivar's track record in
relation to the uses of history.

Apprehensions of this kind have been substantiated by a related decision. The
resolution by the Ministry for Human Resource Development - nodal Ministry
under which the ICHR comes - that details the new nominations carries with it
an
amendment to the Memorandum of Association by which the ICHR was set up;
while the institution was set up ``to foster objective and scientific writing
of history
such as will inculcate an informed appreciation of the country's national and
cultural heritage,'' the new Government's mandate is that the ICHR will give a
``national direction'' to ``an objective and national presentation and
interpretation of history.'' This amendment is certainly not just a matter of
semantics. Instead, one can clearly see in this an intention on the part of
the BJP-led Government to re-write history. The constitution of the ICHR
exclusively with members who endorse the Sangh Parivar's definition of
nationalism - its basis being exclusivism - and the related changes in the
objectives the ICHR must serve as clear indications of this larger project and
hence cause concern."




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Wed Jun 17 20:58:34 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 00:58:34 +0400
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039959.23782.10857540465416087345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Klaus,
        thank you and all other contributors for an interesting list of
works on Indian themes in European music. My own contribution to it:
"Nal' i Damayanti" ("Nala and Damayanti"), an opera by Anton Arensky
(1861-1906). Its libretto, based on V.Zhukovsky's translation of the poem,
was written by Modest Chaikovsky, the brother of the great composer.
The opera was written in 1897, first performed in concert in 1903, and
staged at the Bol'shoy theatre (Moskow) in 1904.
        All the best,
                                Ya.V.




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 18 12:52:54 1998
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 05:52:54 -0700
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227039988.23782.7771587187010282302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, this is not the first time. They tried doing that in 1977-80 too
when they re-wrote the school history textbooks. Many school teachers
at that time agreed that the new textbooks, which now had a pronounced
saffron aspect, were nowhere near the old ones even in terms of
production quality, leave alone in terms of presenting Indian history
as accepted by a majority of scholars.

This has some relevance for recent discussion in this forum as the
Cambridge History of India and the Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan histories
have rightly been deplored by some eminent ZiSTAs (although the
recommended alternative is not without problems viz., Kulke-Rothemund
with its  Kossinna-esque terminology like "Indo-Germans"). Well, you
ain't seen nothin' yet! Wait for their new volumes on Indian history.

I guess this would mean that Saraswati will now begin to overflow
(with funds) and we may truthfully say naditame!

On a lighter note, the impact of this on the dating of the RV will be
immediate. It will be dated to ca. 10,000 BC at least.

Warm Regards.







---Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan  wrote:
>
> In light of the on-going debate about the Aryan Migration Theory, I
thought a
> recent editorial (June 12, 1998) entitled Tampering with History
from The
> Hindu will be of interest to the scholars interested in archaeology,
> revisionism in history, etc. I am quoting it below.
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan
>
>
> "THE BJP GOVERNMENT'S decision to reconstitute the Indian Council for
> Historical Research (ICHR), nominating persons who have supported
the Sangh
> Parivar's divisive campaign on the Ayodhya issue, suggests a
disturbing effort
> to
> undermine the scientific temper that must serve as the basis for
historical
> enquiry. All the 18 nominated members who were hitherto part of the
25-member
> Council - and all of them professional historians of repute - have
been shown
> the door. Even if it be true that they had completed their
three-year term for
> which they were appointed members of the Council and the prerogative
for
> making such appointments rests solely with the Ministry for Human
Resource
> Development, it is certainly cause for concern that most of those
who have
> been nominated were identified with the Sangh Parivar's partisan
appropriation
> and distorted representation of historical facts.
>
> Leading the pack of the new nominees is Prof. B. B. Lal, a former
Director-
> General of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI); Prof. Lal had
carried out
> extensive excavations around the site where the Babri Masjid stood
as part of
> an ASI-sponsored project on the Ramayana sites; his initial
conclusion was
> that there was no evidence to suggest the ``historicity'' of the
Ramayana from
> the sites where he had carried out excavations. Yet, a few years
later, when
> the Ayodhya controversy was made into a vehicle for political
mobilisation,
> Prof. Lal began echoing the Sangh Parivar and even claimed to possess
> ``clinching'' evidence suggesting that the Babri Masjid stood on the
ruins of
> a Hindu temple. What is surprising in this case is that Prof. Lal
did not care
> to explain his ``new'' findings by way of facts obtained by him in
the course
> of the excavations. Interestingly, he even now refuses to hand over
his field
> diaries to the ASI and throw them open to fellow archaeologists; the
field
> diaries are an important source material for any serious and
scientific
> research in archaeology. Similarly, there are some known RSS
pracharaks who
> have been nominated members of the Council while historians of
repute - all
> those who had differed with the Sangh Parivar's views on Ayodhya as
well as on
> other aspects of historical research - have been refused
renomination. This
> suggests a more worrying game plan, given the Sangh Parivar's track
record in
> relation to the uses of history.
>
> Apprehensions of this kind have been substantiated by a related
decision. The
> resolution by the Ministry for Human Resource Development - nodal
Ministry
> under which the ICHR comes - that details the new nominations
carries with it
> an
> amendment to the Memorandum of Association by which the ICHR was set
up;
> while the institution was set up ``to foster objective and
scientific writing
> of history
> such as will inculcate an informed appreciation of the country's
national and
> cultural heritage,'' the new Government's mandate is that the ICHR
will give a
> ``national direction'' to ``an objective and national presentation and
> interpretation of history.'' This amendment is certainly not just a
matter of
> semantics. Instead, one can clearly see in this an intention on the
part of
> the BJP-led Government to re-write history. The constitution of the
ICHR
> exclusively with members who endorse the Sangh Parivar's definition of
> nationalism - its basis being exclusivism - and the related changes
in the
> objectives the ICHR must serve as clear indications of this larger
project and
> hence cause concern."
>

==
Lakshmi Srinivas





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jun 18 13:31:19 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 07:31:19 -0600
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227039982.23782.4772244365585956216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Michael,

>?From Chola period, Siddhars are depicted in sculpture with yoga paTTam.
Some sculptures appear on the cover of english books on
tamil siddhars.

Enjoying your Artibus Asiae paper,
N. Ganesan




From A.Fort at TCU.EDU  Thu Jun 18 14:28:27 1998
From: A.Fort at TCU.EDU (Fort, Andrew)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 09:28:27 -0500
Subject: anvaya-vyatireka
Message-ID: <161227039995.23782.4992069601764023370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See the section on anvaya-vyatireka in "Human Reason and Vedic
Revelation in Advaita Vedanta" in Wilhelm Halbfass' Tradition and
Reflection (SUNY, 1991), p. 162ff..




From J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU  Thu Jun 18 00:20:56 1998
From: J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU (John Napier)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 10:20:56 +1000
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039964.23782.14702335963167501624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:54:25 +020,
  Klaus Karttunen writes:

>Dear friends
>A few months ago someone briefly referred  to "Shubert's
>opera Sakuntala". Finding the note I made then I have tried to check
>it. Supposing Franz Schubert was meant, a list of his (nearly
>forgotten) operas does not including anything Indian. Shubert I do
>not know.

An early work, long lost, recently (ie since c1980) rediscovered.

There is at least one opera founded on KAlidAsa's play,
>namely Franco Alfano's La leggenda di Sakuntala, premi=E8re at Bologna
>town opera in 10.12.1921.

Co-incidently orientalist, Alfano is best remembered for completing
Puccini's "Turandot"

Much earlier the Hungarian componist Karl
>Goldmark composed a ZakuntalA ouverture, first performed in 1865.
>There is further an opera about the VikamorvazIya by W. Kienzl,
>performed in the 1880s "mit Erfolg" according to a contemporary
>source. All these have been forgotten, I have not been able to hear a
>note of them.There are also a few ballets on Indian themes, for
>instance on ZakuntalA (music by S. Bachrich, performed in Vienna
>1884; and another by Reyer, performed in Paris, I don't know when).
>To these may be also added Elgar's Indian Suite, the only one I have
>actually heard.

Lots of operas on Indian themes, ranging from the popular "Indian" operas
of early C19 England (Bishop's "Englishmen in India", Smith's "A
Trip to Bengal") many of which featured highly fashionable "Nautch" scenes
(performed by London dancers!), to later classics such as Bizet's "Pearl
Fishers", Delibes' "Lakme" and (I think) Massenet's "Le Roi de Lahore".

Sticking closer to Indian texts, there is Gustav Holst's "Savitri", and his
hymns from the Rig Veda (in translation). Untranslated is the Sanskrit text
(Bhagavad Gita) of Philip Glass's "Satyagraha": I'm
curious as to how European singers approach memorisation.


>Strictly speaking, this is not Indology, but nevertheless an
>interesting part of the Western conception of India. It would be
>interesting to know, whether there are more examples.

Also worth mentioning the work of three French composers, Albert Roussel
and Maurice Delage in the early part of this century, and of course Olivier
Messiaen. All three were profoundly influenced by Indian music, rather
than just text. Apart from merely the title of his enormous "Turangalila
Symphonie", Messiaen adopted rhythmic procedures derived from the
Sangitaratnakara, and a type of phrase structure which matches phrase ends
to form "musical rhyme" (comparable to the mukhra of North Indian Music).
Much European music matches phrase beginnings.


An interesting looking book, as yet unread by me, is Gerry Farrell's
"Indian Music and the West" (Oxford University press 1997). This is getting
a little far from core Indology!

John Napier




From J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU  Thu Jun 18 00:34:37 1998
From: J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU (John Napier)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 10:34:37 +1000
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227039966.23782.870704113157757100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

How incredibly unpatriotic of me. There is Australian composer Peggy
Glanville Hicks' opera "The Transposed Heads", based on a story by Thomas
Mann "Pariah", apparently drawn from Goethe (whose translation of
Shakuntala was of course the inspiration for Schubert). A tale of inter-
caste love, ritual self-decapitation and resuscitation gone wrong. The
liner notes for the Australian CD claim that the story derives from
Bhagavad Gita (we have a long way to go here in Western Classical Music
Land).

The music sounds like a Vaughan-Williams English Pastorale meets the Barber
of Bhagdad.

John Napier




From lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK  Thu Jun 18 10:04:59 1998
From: lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK (Simon John Haines)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 11:04:59 +0100
Subject: Tipu Sultan
In-Reply-To: <19980616193625.19710.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227039979.23782.15679128379103897540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi ..
I would like to thank Vidyasankar Sundaresan for this most thorough set of
references on Tipu Sultan. Unfortunately, i seem not to be able to reach
him directly, so hence this posting. Sorry, for any inconvience caused -
and thanks again Vidyasankar.
Regards
Simon Haines
University of Reading
United Kingdom

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> Check the following references. Some are simply factual, with some old
> original sources. The rest spans the spectrum of interpretations
> (British/Indian/Pakistani/Hindu/Muslim - martyr/traitor, tyrant/humane,
> fanatic/secularist).
>
> Vidyasankar
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ahmad Saeed, Tipu Sultan.  [1st ed.].  Lahore, Ferozsons [1969].
>
> Ali, B. Sheikh. Tipu Sultan : a study in diplomacy and confrontation, B.
> Sheik Ali. Mysore : Geetha Book House, 1982.
>
> Ali, B. Sheikh. British relations with Haidar Ali, 1760-1782.  Mysore:
> Rao and Raghavan, [1963].
>
> Ali Haidara, 1690-1785. Kulliyyat i 'Ali Haidar 'Ali / 'Ali Haidar.
> Lahaur : Pakistan Panjabi Adabi Bord, 1988.
>
> Bowring, Lewin Bentham, 1824-1910. Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan and the
> struggle with the Musalman powers of the South.  Dehra Dun, EBD Pub. &
> Distributing Co. [1969]. Series title:  Rulers of India.
>
> Captives of Tipu : survivors' narratives / edited by A.W. Lawrence.
> London: Jonathan Cape, 1929. Series title:  SAMP early 20th-century
> Indian books project ; item 10449.
>
> Fernandes, Praxy, Storm over Seringapatam; the incredible story of Hyder
> Ali & Tippu Sultan. [Bombay] Thackers [1969].
>
> Fernandes, Praxy, The Tigers of Mysore : a biography of Hyder Ali & Tipu
> Sultan / Praxy Fernandes.  Rev. and updated ed.  New Delhi ; New York,
> N.Y., U.S.A. : Viking, c1991.
>
> Forrest, Denys Mostyn. Tiger of Mysore: the life and death of Tipu
> Sultan, by Denys Forrest. London, Chatto & Windus, 1970.
>
> Hasan, Mohibbul. History of Tipu Sultan.  Calcutta, Bibliophile, 1951.
>
> Henderson, John Robertson, The coins of Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan, by
> J. R. Henderson.  Madras, Printed by the superintendent, Government
> press, 1921.
>
> Husain 'Ali, Kirmani, fl. 1781-1802. History of Tipu Sultan, being a
> translation of the Nishan-i-Haidari / by Mir Husain Ali Khan Kirmani ;
> translated from Persian by W. Miles.  Lahore: Islamic Book Service,
> 1974.
>
> Jalaja Caktitaca_n. Tippu Sultan, a fanatic? / V. Jalaja Sakthidasan.
> 1st ed.  Madras: Nithyananda Jothi Nilayam, 1990.
>
> Jeddy, Bilal Ahmed. Tipu Sultan : the making of the man and the martyr /
> B.A. Jeddy. Karachi, Pakistan : Syed and Syed, c1995.
>
> Kareem, C. K. Kerala under Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan / C. K. Kareem.
> Ernakulam : Kerala History Association : distributors, Paico Pub. House,
> 1973.
>
> Krasheninnikov, V. L. (Viacheslav Leonidovich) Lev Maisura. [Tipu
> Sultan]. (Ist. povest'). [Predisl. kand. ist. nauk L. B. Alaeva].
> Moskva, Nauka, 1971.
>
> Michaud, J. Fr. (Joseph Fr.), 1767-1839. Michaud's history of Mysore,
> under Hyder Ali & Tippoo Sultan / translated from the French by V.K.
> Raman Menon ; with a foreword by the Raja of Panagal.  New Delhi : Asian
> Educational Services, 1985-
>
> Munro, Innes. A narrative of the military operations of the Coromandel
> Coast, against the combined forces of the French, Dutch and Hyder Ally
> Cawn, from the year 1780 to the peace in 1784 ...  London, T. Bensley,
> 1789.
>
> Muthanna, I. M. Tipu Sultan x'rayed / I.M. Muthanna.  1st ed.  [Mysore?
> : s.n.], 1980 (Mysore : Usha Press).
>
> Palsokar, R. D., Tipu Sultan, by R. D. Palsokar. Foreword by S. S.
> Maitra.  Poona, 1969.
>
> Secret correspondence of Tipu Sultan / Kabir Kausar.  1st ed.  New Delhi
> : Light and Life Publishers, 1980.
>
> Sharma, H. D. (Hari Dev), The real Tipu : a brief history of Tipu Sultan
> / H.D. Sharma.  Varanasi : Rishi Publications, 1991.
>
> Shushtari, Zayn al-'Abidin, fl. 1790. Fath-ul-mujahideen, a treatise on
> the rules and regulations of Tipu Sultan's army and his principles of
> strategy, compliled by Mir Zainul Abedeen Shushtari; edited by Mahmud
> Husain, with a foreword by Liaquat Ali Khan. Karachi, Urdu Academy Sind,
> 1950.
>
> Tigers round the throne : the court of Tipu Sultan (1750-1799).  London
> : Zamana, 1990.
>
> Tippu, Sultan, 1749?-1799. The dreams of Tipu Sultan / Translated from
> the original Persian with an introduction and notes by Mahmud Husain.
> [Karachi : Times Press, 19--]. Series title:  Pakistan Historical
> Society. Publications no. 7.
>
> Tipu Sultan, a great martyr / editor, B. Sheik Ali.  Bangalore :
> Prasaranga, Bangalore University, c1993.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Jun 18 07:13:44 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 11:13:44 +0400
Subject: Iranians in Ancient India
Message-ID: <161227039976.23782.6036608735168097858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to express my belated thanks to Jonatan Silk for his additions
to a list of works bearing on the Iranian influence in Indian Religion. His
suggestions are not "off the original point" at all, but directly answer my
question. Due to the help from the members of the list and to my own search
I have now at my disposal a bibliography on the problem, which starts with
Major Wilford's notes in Asiatic Researches, vol. 9, and Fr. Buchanan's
"Account of the Districts of Bihar and Patna in 1811-1812" (published from
the original MS at Patna in 1920-s, no exact date). And I have found what
I was looking for: the indisputable evidence of Iranian cultural presence in
Magadha/Bihar during Late Antiquity and Middle Ages.
       With deep gratitude to all contributors,
                                                Yaroslav Vassilkov




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Thu Jun 18 09:41:55 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 11:41:55 +0200
Subject: saras 2 (echo)
Message-ID: <161227039985.23782.6507589232184177858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members,
        Many thanks for all this useful answers. I'll begin with some remarks.
        If we try to classify quickly the vAgnAmAni, we obtain few
categories (multiple appartenance allowed):
        The most numerous words are naturally linked to the speech,
directly (nivit), by the sound (vAzI, vANI, vANIcI, vANaH, mefiH, vagnuH,
upabdiH, mAyuH, ghoSaH, svaraH, zabdaH, svanaH, galdA, bekurA), the music
(dhamaniH, nAfI, vAnIcI), the organ (kAkut, jihvA), the poetical technic
(zlokaH, akSaram, anuSTup, suparNI), the prayer (Rk, hotra, gIH, gAthA,
svAhA, dhiSaNA, nauH), the epic 'immortal renown' (zlokaH, akSaram) or by
the generalization of epithets (gabhIrA, gambhIrA, mandrA, mandrAjanI,
dhiSaNA, valguH).
        Next, numerous Goddesses, some of Them naturally expected (IfA,
vANI, bhAratI, sarasvatI, mahI, vAk, suparnI), some less expected, probably
here by various identifications (gandharvI, gaurI, menA, sUryA, aditiH,
zacI) and two names perhaps generic (gnA, nanA).
        An unclear category could be linked to the missile weapons (vAzI,
paviH, meni, kazA, bekurA), the key perhaps given by suparNI if we refer to
the Homeric 'epea pteroenta' (*wekw-es-H2 *p(e)tH1ro-went-H2 *> vaca(aM)si
pattravanti), not 'winged words' as commonly translated but 'feathered
words' like an efficient arrow.
        The cow-metaphore is barely present (gauH, dhenA, dhenuH, aditiH),
perhaps gandharvI as daughter of surabhi, and the rain-metaphore just with
dhArA.
        Only two words remaind isolated, gaNaH and saraH, leaving open the
possibility they are in the same category ;-)
        Sure, that's just a quick lexicographic survey, with probably some
errors, and a fine contextual analysis should be necessary but we can find
interesting the lack of direct references to the river (dhenA being
secondary) or the soma (rasaH seems dubious), excluding apparently such
interpretations of saraH ..?
        Other later. Best regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun 18 17:26:55 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 12:26:55 -0500
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227039998.23782.9973150556372893670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:07 PM 6/10/98 +0200, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
> In the case of the migration theory, I, for one,
>would regard the linguistic evidence as extemely important, whereas other
>evidence would have to be interpreted in the light of the linguistic
>evidence.
>
Please provide references to linguistic evidence (collected since
150 years! ) that has conclusively proved a migration.
All the linguists seem to agree on "migration into India" but when
it comes to the details,  the solidarity breaks up, often contradicting
one another completely. Just check what the various scholars say , and
see how divergent and contradictory the views are.
Witzel in a previous posting provided references to many of
the bhai-bhai (kinship?) linguistic hypotheses and he even discounted
them - Do you realize why ?. Because,in my opinion, all such bhai-bhai
thories basically  weaken the Aryan invasion/migration theory. Just
as an example pick up the Aryan and Non-Aryan in India and verify if
the wide range of views presented there, corroborate or contradict one
another.

Because of the wide range of views (and contradicting one another),
your opinion, that there is conclusive linguistic evidence
of a migration into India, is not correct.

It is one thing to keep referring to  "linguistic
evidence" and totally another to provide conclusive evidence.

Coming to the recent political postings:
The "Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan" scholarship has had to live
up to better scrutiny than the migrationists.
Because of the lack of proper checks, balances and scrutiny, the
migrationists have for long evaded answering questions and felt free
to postulate all kinds of theories.
Now that the "Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan" scholars dont look
for big brother approval one has to resort to labelling and
villifying.

As for the comments  about  political motivation - All I can say is
invasion/migration theorists should look in the mirror before attributing
motives to others and  scholars living in the racist and political
invasion/migration theory glass house shouldnt  be throwing stones.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of history would know.


Regards,
Subrahmanya




From girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM  Thu Jun 18 19:51:56 1998
From: girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM (Girish Sharma)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 12:51:56 -0700
Subject: Svaras for Asato maa...
Message-ID: <161227040000.23782.15642630594017138759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Are there Vedic svaras associated with
Asato maa sadgamaya, etc?
The only written version I have found with
svaras does not seem to match any of the ways
I have heard it chanted.

Thank you for any help you can provide.


-------------------------------------------------------

Girish Sharma
San Diego, CA
girish at mushika.wanet.com




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 18 20:27:19 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 13:27:19 -0700
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040005.23782.13947901113451643645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lakshmi Srinivas writes:

>Well, this is not the first time. They tried doing that in 1977-80
toowhen they re-wrote the school history textbooks. Many school
teachersat that time agreed that the new textbooks, which now had a
pronouncedsaffron aspect, were nowhere near the old ones even in terms
ofproduction quality, leave alone in terms of presenting Indian history
as accepted by a majority of scholars.>>

My understanding is this that the *revised history* is already being
taught in Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat(?), states that have been under the
Saffron Banner earlier on.

>On a lighter note, the impact of this on the dating of the RV will be
>immediate. It will be dated to ca. 10,000 BC at least.

S.N.subrahmanya talks about the lack of agreement among the
Invasion/Migration historians...by the same token, it must be pointed
out that the nationalist Historians cannot agree on anything either..
For the dating of the Veda we have dates from 4000 BC to 8000 BC, for
the occurence of the Kurukshetra battle, E.Vedavyas of Hyderabad
gives a date of 4500+  BC while shri subhash Kak of Baton rouge proposes
a similar date for composition of the Vedas( both based on astronomical
calculations!)...My only conclusion is that while Yagnas were being held
peacefully on the banks of the Sarasvati, a few hundred miles away in
Kurukshetra the Kauravas and Pandavas were at each other's
throats...talk about "War and Peace" huh!:-)

  Of course, my own favorite in all this is the proposal of one Dr Sathe
of Pune who claims that Shri Rama( i.e. of the ramayana) was born in
7000 BC...now, since orthodox believers say that his reign was for 10000
years, am I to understand that Shri Rama is still ruling?
If so where? It certainly can't be in Ayodhya since what is going on in
UP can hardly be called Ram Rajya....

 Bottom Line: If we point a finger at others, we are pointing three
other fingers at our own selves....


Regards,
Krishna


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 18 14:08:45 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 16:08:45 +0200
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227039993.23782.3702346087275351735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>This has some relevance for recent discussion in this forum as the
>Cambridge History of India and the Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan histories
>have rightly been deplored by some eminent ZiSTAs (although the
>recommended alternative is not without problems viz., Kulke-Rothemund
>with its  Kossinna-esque terminology like "Indo-Germans"). Well, you
>ain't seen nothin' yet! Wait for their new volumes on Indian history.

In defence of Kulke-Rothermund, it should perhaps be mentioned that the book
originally was written in German. Perversely or not, the Germans insist upon
calling the Indo-Europeans "Indo-Germanen". I therefore suspect that
"Indo-Germans" is translation error.

>I guess this would mean that Saraswati will now begin to overflow
>(with funds) and we may truthfully say naditame!

>On a lighter note, the impact of this on the dating of the RV will be
>immediate. It will be dated to ca. 10,000 BC at least.

Why not six million BC? It is really eternal, remember?

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun 18 21:44:41 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 16:44:41 -0500
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040006.23782.704779885692459668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Let me make a point clear:

When I say "retrofitting" - I am questioning the methodology of
the migrationists - i.e first assuming that a migration happened
and then trying to interpret data accordingly.

This is crucial, especially when equally valid other options/interpretations
are avaliable - for eg: Retroflexion - is it because of migration or
is it an internal  development ?
If one chooses migration -  what evidence is there to choose it ?.
If one calls it internal development - then what is the available evidence ?.

I would pick internal development, because there is no evidence of
any migration  from evidences like archeology, textual or genetic.

If one notices, the original evidence for a invasion/migration
i.e textual (racist interpretations like dasa,anaasa etc) and archeological
(Harappa was destroyed by invading aryans..) are no longer valid.

Thus the original evidence on which invasion/migration was postulated
doesnt exist !...So - the linguistic evidence  which relied on such
archeological confirmation is also suspect !!.

The bottom line is - when linguistic evidence is proposed - corroborative
evidence from other sources should be available. Proceeding with an
initial assumption of a migration, interpreting linguistic data accordingly
and then asserting that there is linguistic evidence of a migration is
example of a "circular" evidence.

For the rest, I guess we should agree to diagree and leave it at that.

Regards,
Subrahmanya




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Fri Jun 19 00:17:49 1998
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 20:17:49 -0400
Subject: anvaya-vyatireka
Message-ID: <161227040010.23782.15102239404534450121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> Sankara (in Upadesasahasri) and his discipe, Suresvara (in
> Naishkarmyasiddhi) use a technique of anvaya-vyatireka to establish the
> identity taught in the sentence, tat tvam asi. Naiyyayikas and
> Vaiyakaranikas also use this technique, the former to establish a

Take a look at "Samkara and Suresvara: Their exegetical method to
interpret the great sentence. `TAT TVAM ASI'", S. Mayeda, Adyar Library
Bulletin, K. Kunjunni Raja Felicitation Volume, pp. 147-160.

IMO, this is only a restatement of the stuff found in the
Naishhkarmyasiddhi. Not much of historical details, since that's what
you seem interested in.

Rama.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 18 20:26:43 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 22:26:43 +0200
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040003.23782.5017226588940447382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sn. Subrahmania wrote:

>>
>> In the case of the migration theory, I, for one,
>>would regard the linguistic evidence as extemely important, whereas other
>>evidence would have to be interpreted in the light of the linguistic
>>evidence.
>>
>Please provide references to linguistic evidence (collected since
>150 years! ) that has conclusively proved a migration.
>All the linguists seem to agree on "migration into India" but when
>it comes to the details,  the solidarity breaks up, often contradicting
>one another completely. Just check what the various scholars say , and
>see how divergent and contradictory the views are.

It is hardly surprising that scholars disagree upon details. A number of
details are difficult to explain in an indisputable manner, which is what
you would expect. However, the agreement between linguists is due to the
fact that the main points of the migration theory fit and hang together. Not
only as far as language is concerned: see the list of phenomena that Witzel
provided a couple of weeks ago.

Everybody keeps talking about proof, but if there is no agreement upon what
proof would actually be, we can always keep doubting. To the members of the
"Earth is Flat" society, the earth is still flat, whatever the arguments of
natural science may be, just as Christian creationists keep refuting the
modern conception of the cosmos in favour of the Biblical narrative. Be that
as it may be, the linguistic evidence has been presented on this list
several times over, and all the data are in the archive. Maybe you should
take a look once more.

>Witzel in a previous posting provided references to many of
>the bhai-bhai (kinship?) linguistic hypotheses and he even discounted
>them - Do you realize why ?. Because,in my opinion, all such bhai-bhai
>thories basically  weaken the Aryan invasion/migration theory. Just
>as an example pick up the Aryan and Non-Aryan in India and verify if
>the wide range of views presented there, corroborate or contradict one
>another.

Witzel may want to answer for himself, but it is not my impression that he
rejects the migration theory. To the contrary: he has argued against it.

>Because of the wide range of views (and contradicting one another),
>your opinion, that there is conclusive linguistic evidence
>of a migration into India, is not correct.

What is "conclusive evidence" in your opinion? Based upon what we know of
languages in the Indo-European family, it is extremely improbable that they
came from India. People like Sethna is aware of this dilemma and posits an
area of "Aryanism" that includes parts of Europe/Eurasia. In other words,
Aryanism is a linguistic-cultural concept that covers an area comprising
both India and Europe in a very early period. But Sethna does not explain
how this cultural-linguistic area was created. Thus, he only pushes the
basic question back in time.

When I read your objections to the migrationist theory, I keep thinking of a
statistical exercise we did when I studied statistics. We were made to
evaluate the following problem: There is a test that with p % certainty will
tell you that  a patient has AIDS, given that he has AIDS, whereas there is
a q % probability that the test will tell you that s/he does not have AIDS,
in spite of the fact that s/he does. (p is 99.995%, and q is very small).
Furthermore, there is a z % chance (also a very small chance) that it will
tell you that the patient does not have AIDS, in spite of the fact that s/he
has. Now, would it be a good idea to test the whole Norwegian population? I
don't remember the mathematical details anymore, but the result of the
exercise was that some 40,000 Norwegians would be told that they had AIDS,
in spite of the fact that they were healthy, whereas 12,000 would be told
that they were healthy, in spite of the fact that they were sick. In other
words, it would not be a good idea to test the whole population, given the
error rate and the economic consequences it produces. (The vast majority,
4,2 million, would of course get the right message).

Now, given your logic, the test does NOT PROVE that a patient has AIDS. It
will only tell the doctor (and the patient) that there is a fairly high
chance that s/he has AIDS, or to the contrary that s/he hasn't.
Consequently, if the test says "AIDS" you could claim that there is no
reason to worry, because the test hasn't PROVED that you have AIDS.

Returning to the linguistic evidence, it works a bit like the AIDS-test. It
doesn't PROVE - in a mathematical sense, or experimentally - that the Aryans
migrated into India. But the probability that they did is extremely high.
That is why people with a bit of linguistic insight tend to prefer the
migration theory, in spite of the scholarly squabbles over details.

>Coming to the recent political postings:
>The "Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan" scholarship has had to live
>up to better scrutiny than the migrationists.
>Because of the lack of proper checks, balances and scrutiny, the
>migrationists have for long evaded answering questions and felt free
>to postulate all kinds of theories.

As far as I can see, the migrationists have been busy answering questions on
this list a long time now.

>Now that the "Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan" scholars dont look
>for big brother approval one has to resort to labelling and
>villifying.

Oh dear. Who has been vilified and labelled? And where is big brother?

>As for the comments  about  political motivation - All I can say is
>invasion/migration theorists should look in the mirror before attributing
>motives to others and  scholars living in the racist and political
>invasion/migration theory glass house shouldnt  be throwing stones.
>Anyone with a basic knowledge of history would know.

You have a point here. Anybody who has read Trautmann's book on the Aryans
and the British, would know that there were a few sins committed in this
respect on the European side. But I didn't raise the question of hidden
motivations. You did, when you talked about retrofitting. My point was this:
hidden motives can be found anywhere. In the case of the indigenists,
motives aren't even hidden, they are explicit and quotable. So if you stop
talking about retrofitting and the mentality of the migrationists, I won't
talk about the motives of the indigenists.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Thu Jun 18 23:12:44 1998
From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 01:12:44 +0200
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040008.23782.2102842759525395616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Subscribers,
Does anyone know whether there is any TrueTypeFont of Grantha characters
available? Or, alternatively, a good tool to create one?
--
jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de



Juergen Neuss

Freie Universitaet Berlin

Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte

K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a

14195 Berlin




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Fri Jun 19 10:28:47 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 04:28:47 -0600
Subject: yoga-paTTa
Message-ID: <161227040016.23782.10107873407250852183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ganesan,
        I was just thinking of you!  For several days I've been stumped
trying to recall where I read, way back when, about artisans from several
specific regions of India, at work for some South Indian king.  I thought
it might have been the Cilappatikaram, but couldn't find such a passage in
K.N Subramaniyam's _rendering_.  Can you help me out, or should I throw the
query out to the entire list?
        Glad to know my article's in good hands!

>Dear Michael,
>
>>From Chola period, Siddhars are depicted in sculpture with yoga paTTam.
>Some sculptures appear on the cover of english books on
>tamil siddhars.
>
>Enjoying your Artibus Asiae paper,
>N. Ganesan




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Fri Jun 19 11:01:47 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 05:01:47 -0600
Subject: Random cultural oddity?
Message-ID: <161227040018.23782.6999687410458445525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Au contraire,
        That's what killed him [and many others, more recently, I hear]

>It is reported by authentic sources that the formula for Viagra is
>contained in the last sutra of Panini's Astadhyayi.  He is reported to
>have died saying 'Viagra, Viagra', but evidently before someone would
>administer it to him.
>                        Madhav Deshpande
>
>On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Ashok Aklujkar wrote:
>
>> For some weeks I have been saying to my family that Viagra looks
>>suspicioulsy close to vyaaghra 'tiger.' However, I have not been energetic
>>enough to investigate how the drug was named. (Could it be because I did not
>>take Viagra?) -- ashok aklujkar
>>
>> At 10:44 -0500 16-06-98, jonathan silk wrote:
>> >I haven't seen mention of this anywhere (but then, I haven't been looking
>> >either)
>> >
>> >So, I wondered:  Am I the only one who noticed this and thought it ...
>> >interesting:
>> >
>> >vyAgra :: Viagra
>> >
>> >Surely this is more than a coincidence?
>> >
>> >In a lighter mood, jonathan
>> >
>> >Jonathan SILK
>> >
>> >****Note New Email Address***:
>> >
>> >jonathan.silk at yale.edu
>>




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Fri Jun 19 11:16:25 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 05:16:25 -0600
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227040020.23782.11558423298663413059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> sometime in the early 80s, there was a symphony composed with the name
>"Satyagraha". This symphony describes the activities of Mahatma
>Gandhi in S.Africa and consists mainly of verses of the Bhagavadgita
>set to music. From an Indian point of view, it is a little difficult to
>relate to the business of Mahatma Gandhi and KAsturba singing duets
>, verses from the Bhagavadgita at that....

That's Philip Glass, an indophile with roots of musical collaboration with
Ravi Shankar back in the 1960's and most recently celebrated, justifiably,
I might add, for the score of _Kundun_, the Dalai Lama tribute by Martin
Scorsese.
>
>Last but not the least, there was some talk of a "Sitar Symphony"
>sometime ago by Pandit Ravi Shankar...
>
>Regards,
>Krishna
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 19 13:53:17 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 08:53:17 -0500
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040025.23782.13113516262363278197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:49 AM 6/19/98 +0200, LArs Martin Fosse wrote:
>
>The reason for the "removal" of the Aryans from India to
>Europe, was the insight that there were far more Indo-European languages in
>Europe than in India, which, among other things, would suggest that Europe
>or Eurasia would be the starting point of the Indo-European expansion. Thus,
>your retrofitting hypothesis does not really stick.
>
This is very debatable. It is not right to say that India does not have
linguistic diversity !!. The range of languages in India is mind boggling.
Actually, the presence of Kentum traces in some of the Indian languages,
that has been suggested by Zoller isnt much of a surprise to Indigenists.
Also, it wouldnt be surprising at all if more Kentum traces are found in
the Dardic, Kafir and other languages in N.India.
>?From Tarim Basin to Baluchistan you find tremendous variety of languages -
Tocharian, Dardic,so called "Kafir", Bangani, Brahui etc...

Also migrationists typically tend to regard the language of the Rgveda as
indicative of all Arya presence in the subcontinent. This is not correct.
The Rgveda mostly represents a Puru dialect. There were most definitely
other people in the area who  considered themselves "Arya" as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Retroflexion may be both. Modern Norwegian and Swedish both have
>retroflexion, which developed quite independently of Dravidian languages!
>
You are right. That is why it is not correct to say that migration into
India caused the development of retroflexion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Archaeology: There is some evidence (see Parpola). Textual: See Witzel's
>reconstruction of early Indo-Aryan history based on Vedic. Genetic:
>According to the genetic studies I have read, there is genetic evidence. I
>believe a book on the subject is forthcoming in India with a contribution by
>Cavalli-Sforza.
>
Witzels reconstruction of Vedic Textual history demands all kinds
of reminiscences !!.  Let us not get into that again.
None of the archeologists seem to think that there is any evidence
of a migration.
As for the genetic evidence, let us wait for the book.
----------------------------------------------------------------
>>Thus the original evidence on which invasion/migration was postulated
>>doesnt exist !...So - the linguistic evidence  which relied on such
>>archeological confirmation is also suspect !!.
>
>Not true. SOME of the supposed evidence has been discarded. But certainly
>not all. And new evidence has emerged.
>
Please give details, as to what has not been discarded and what the new
evidence is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Corroborative evidence is always an advantage. But I know of no historical
>example where a language family has spread over a large part of a continent
>simply by dint of example. If the Aryan languages didn't come from India,
>they would have to have entered the subcontinent, and to be carried there by
>a group of people large enough to make a real impact.
>
You make an excellent point here !..Is central asia been capable of producing
the population needed to go all around Asia and Europe to make such an impact
as the Indo-Europeans have done. Nomads who generally do not have such surplus
food cannot be expected to produce the population needed to colonize such a
large
 area !!. Is Ukraine capable of producing the population neeeded to go out and
populate the whole area form India to Ireland so thorougly as the
Indo-Europeans have ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I suspect that by the
>year 1000 BCE, Northern India was a bit like Latin America 300 years ago:
>Lots of Europeans streaming in, mostly Spanish speaking, and confronting the
>local populations.
>
Wrong!. First you have to prove that whatever area in Central Asia could produce
the population needed to overwhelm all of North India and impose its own culture
and language on a more advanced civilization.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I am afraid you are right. It is a bit sad that you don't want to discuss
>the methodical problems involved in the study of ancient history. Discussing
>proofs when we don't even agree upon what would constitute a proof is a bit
>futile.
>
I am willing to discuss the methodical problem - but did not want to
get into a rhetoric match.

Regards,
Subrahmanya




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jun 19 13:07:15 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 09:07:15 -0400
Subject: Tampering with history 2
Message-ID: <161227040021.23782.5908693271213635952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(Part 2 : general)



In all the cases quoted in part 1: why is the bulk/weight of the evidence
is outside the subcontinent? How would it have left?

NB: We do not "start with immigration", rather one thought in the early
19th c.  that India could have been the home of the IE languages, but
items such as those above made scholars change their mind. Not the other
way round: *Inductive, not deductive* method.

One could go on. If someone can show me how the above and a host of other
items could have evolved in S. Asia, I will change my stace.

> Witzel in a previous posting provided references to many of
> the bhai-bhai (kinship?) linguistic hypotheses and he even discounted
> them -

Did I ? Only with the proviso repeated just now. (The only Bhai-bhai-s I
know of are the long past Hind-Ciin Bhai-Bhai days of the Fifties!).

> Do you realize why ?. Because,in my opinion, all such bhai-bhai
> thories basically  weaken the Aryan invasion/migration theory.

On the contrary. If words, grammar, poetry, meter, concepts, rituals,
religion, customs, animals, technology, are shared by the Indian and
European bhai's then this must have come from ... somewhere.

(AND I DO NOT CARE whether this somewhere is in the Pamirs (as some people
thought a hundred yearas ago), in the Ukraine, or in the Panjab: But it
should be made plausible, taking ALL evidence into account and not just
ONE item (say, Kak's calculations).

> Just
> as an example pick up the Aryan and Non-Aryan in India and verify if
> the wide range of views presented there, corroborate or contradict one
> another.

Scholarship is a dialectic process. Each one of us is not right all of the
time. But can be corrected by others. Hence disagreement and discussion.

But some positions are outdated. and it is a waste of time always to
repeat why the earth is NOT flat. -- IE *(h)ekwo-s does not look like
(Skt) azva-s "horse" as scholars thought (before the Junggrammatiker
c. 1860). SS Misra now reverts to these blissful days of incipient IE
studies of the early 19th cent. - No longer discussable and a waste of
time for all involved.

In the same way, one thought, in the 19th c., of "movements of people" in
terms of the Huns' invasion of Europe, of Germanic tribes on the move,
such as the Cimbri/Teutoni, Goths, or of Celtic ones such as the Helvetii
or Caesar's Belgae into Britain! (sorry, Mr Renfrew).  But we have
developed (often, while not even knowing about the current discussion in
India!)  much more sophisticated models for spread of language/ culture,
and (yes!) even people and their local acculturation.
<why people, see below>.

> Because of the wide range of views (and contradicting one another),
> your opinion, that there is conclusive linguistic evidence
> of a migration into India, is not correct.

Show how with (ling.) arguments! Statements (Mantras) like this one do not
suffice!! See above on scholarly disagreement.

> It is one thing to keep referring to  "linguistic
> evidence" and totally another to provide conclusive evidence.

Nobody does that (Who?). This is too easy. To quote Lars Fosse, if even
now some people disagree on the shape of the earth that does not disprove
the scientific description of it.  Linguistics works in comparable ways.
If the IE linguists had NOT developed a fool proof system, how could they
have *predicted*, way back in the 19th c., the laryngeals and decades
(i.e.  de Saussure) before they were found in Hittite (1916 I think) ? Or
pre-Greek *kw before it finally was detected in Mycenean Greek in 1948?

Again, we need detailed arguments, not general Mantras such as
"linguistics does not work" etc, to convince people like myself. I have
not seen that, neither on this list nor elsewhere.

> As for the comments  about  political motivation -
> racist and political
> invasion/migration theory glass house

Why, *nowadays*, racist and political? No one accuses the Bantu
specialists for having shown that speakers of Bantu come from the contact
zone in W.  Africa (like Cameroon; and a South African or, for that
matter, a Pygmy, does not look like a Cameroonian). Nobody accuses the
Polynesian linguists to have shown that all Polynesian speaking *peoples*
(Hawaii etc.) came from Fiji/Tonga (Savai)  c. 1100 BC (and ultimately
probably from Taiwan: *Sawaiki), or that Amerindians came from Siberia ...

To be clear:  Why is only an immigration *INTO S. Asia* racist (but not
the one OUT OF INDIA), and not those involving Polynesians, etc.?

In other words, why is only the (small scale) Indo_Aryan immigration not
allowed, but the movements of the Khasi/Mundas, Dravidians,
Tibeto-Burmese, Ahoms etc. into S. Asia are ok?  What is going on here?

The only peoples not (yet) suspected of immigration into India are the
Nahal (near Ellichpur, R. Narmada) and maybe the Burusho in Hunza/Pamirs.
All other languages (NOTE: NOT the bulk of the PEOPLE!)  seem to have
immigrated from outside... just like everywhere ELSE in the world.

Why should *just S. Asia* be different?

We have known for quite some time that language (+ culture) has nothing to
do with race. How could, to use the outdated terms, "black, white, yellow,
red, brown" or whatever people in the US all be American, that is,
Indo_European speaking people?

We do not live in 1947 but in 1998. Why not to concentrate on real
Indological issues not imaginary or long discredited ones?

iti samaaptam.
 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jun 19 13:18:01 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 09:18:01 -0400
Subject: Tampering with history I
Message-ID: <161227040023.23782.14961837015609631731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I really do not have the time now, but since I have been quoted... my (for
the time being) final answer.  And then, I have to divert to other
pursuits... (Answer in 2 parts):

On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote:

> Please provide references to linguistic evidence (collected since
> 150 years! ) that has conclusively proved a migration.

I provided a list of items from the spiritual and material culture
etc. of the Rgveda last week and invited members to show that these
items could have developed in South Asia and could have spread from there
to Iran, Turkey, Europe..

Interestingly, nobody has tried so far....

On the contrary, the evidence for language, concepts, plants, animals,
spiritual and material culture "foreign" to the subcontinent is a long
one, I will just mention a few selected examples here.

(Such items have been added to, of course, by local South Asian ("Indian"
for short) items, as hapens everywhere: American English has words
such as squaw, papoose, tipi, moose, woodchuck, etc. which everyone will
immediately recognize as non_Anglo_Saxon; though I could imagine some
zelots who would find an Anglo-Saxon etymology even for them...But the
British immigrants here still called a squirrel a squirrel as it is the
same animal, reddish in Europe, gray here in N. America... Compare this
well recognized procedure with the items below)

Some items:

1. Linguistics. How can even the oldest hymns of the Rgveda (1500, 4000,
8000 BC???) have the absolutive (ga-tvaa, samgam-ya etc)  but none of the
other Indo-European languages (not even the closely related dialects of
Old Iranian)??
If Early Sanskrit had spread from the Panjab westwards and become IE
elsewhere why did the emigrants forget their absolutives as soon as the
crossed the Khyber or Bolan passes?
(many more exx.)
If the absolutive is a local Panjab invention (as linguists think),
why did it develop there as a clear INNOVATION based on older IE materials
(the archaic  -tu stem!) and why not before?

2. Religion. Why does India have the clearly archaic "FATHER HEAVEN" DYAUS
PITAA(R) (e.g. 'wrong' accusative dyAm, Greek zEn etc.) who is found in
Greek, Latin etc. but lost as an "active" deity almost immediately after
the Rgveda; he survived into historical times in Rome, Greece, Sweden etc.
(and Engl. "Tues-day). Where is the Indian source for that concept (and of
mother earth) in Dravidian, Burushaski, Munda, the Indus Seals etc etc.?

3. Ritual. Horse sacrifice is widely spread from Ireland to Waragaean
Russia (and, yes, to the Sintashta burials East of the Urals) but it is
also found with the neighboring Turkic peoples ( I think down to be start
of this century in the Altai Mountains). But where is the Indian source of
this (before, let us be modest, the Swat Valley sites in the middle of the
2nd millennium BC.)
The central role of fire rituals?
Even nicer: the origin of the ancestor rituals, such as zraaddha &
pinda-s...

4.Domesticated Animals. Why do the Indo-Aryans (in the Rgveda) use
non-Indian (+ IE) terms for domesticated cows (same archaic accusative
forms as in Dyaus Pitaa), sheep, goat, -- all of which had been found
there since 7000 BC or so; (and of course for the horse which has not
conclusively been attested in S.  Asia before 1700 BC). Why not local
words such as Dravidian, Munda etc.???

5. Wild animals. Why do they also do so for *colder* climate animals such
as the wolf, beaver etc.? And conversely, why do the "emigrant'
Indo_Euro[peans in Iran and Europe do not use ANY linguistically local
Indian words for tropical animals such as tiger (pundarika), lion (simha)
etc. but OTHER, non_Indian words (tiger, leo(n)/lis/sher) ??  Again
collective amnesia the moment they crossed the Khyber into Iran??  (The
Gypsies who came from NW India *DO* remember: pani, churi...; "I/you..
do": karav, karas, karal...)

6. Plants. Why do some colder climate plants survive in Sanskrit but not
vice versa, Indian words in Iran/Europe? Bhuurja "birch tree", probably
the willow, but not: pipal tree, lotos flower (which is found in Iran, and
in a smaller variety even in Europe (though I do not know since when),etc.

7. Family. Why does IE family structure (patrilinear etc., Omaha type )
and the designation for it agree with the Vedic one but not with the
Dravidian and Munda one?

8. Society. Why does the structure of society (even without Dumezil) agree
with the IE one, including the role of "kings" and poets/priests? What
about the role of the poets, their training, maybe their several "levels
of status"?

9. Poetry. Why is early Dravidian poetry in concept and form so different
from the Rgvedic one, which shares many items with the Iranian and IE
poetry in general? Including the Vedic/Iranian/Greek 11-syllable meter?
The two level poetic language (sacred/non-sacred; gods: adversaries). And
why no export of the Tamil model westwards? What about IE sorcery spells
(Atharvaveda-Old High German, AV - Hittite, etc.)?

10. Technology. Why does Vedic share technological terms with Iran/Europe
(wheel, axle, axe, carpenter, etc.) but not with India?  (akSa > accu,
aaNi are early loans into Tamil).

(CONTD, in PART 2)
 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU  Fri Jun 19 17:12:12 1998
From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 10:12:12 -0700
Subject: Grantha characters
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980619215232.11274e0e@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040036.23782.902070392601343639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Isn't this an anachronism?  (I really don't know, not being a specialist.)

Peter Claus


On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:

> I believe Grantha chracters or GranthAkSaram is the script used in 
> Tamil Nadu to write sanskrit works. They have to use a different
> script because the tamil with a single letter for the first four 
> letters of each varga (absence of some other letters also) is inadequate 
> to transliterate sanskrit works.
> 
> regards,
> 
> sarma. 
> 
> At 06:57 PM 6/19/98 +0400, you wrote:
> >If you mean Gurmukhi, here is one I remapped myself (see att.)
> >
> >Alexandre Elizariev
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Juergen Neuss <jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
> >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> >Date: 19 ???? 1998 ?. 3:07
> >Subject: Grantha characters
> >
> >
> >>Dear Subscribers,
> >>Does anyone know whether there is any TrueTypeFont of Grantha characters
> >>available? Or, alternatively, a good tool to create one?
> >>--
> >>jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Juergen Neuss
> >>
> >>Freie Universitaet Berlin
> >>
> >>Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
> >>
> >>K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a
> >>
> >>14195 Berlin
> >>
> >
> >Attachment Converted: D:\EUDORA15\EUDORA\ATTACH\ftpnjam.TTF
> >
> 




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jun 19 08:49:00 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 10:49:00 +0200
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040014.23782.8236867403820690743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sn Subrahmania wrote:

At 16:44 18.06.98 -0500, you wrote:
>Let me make a point clear:
>
>When I say "retrofitting" - I am questioning the methodology of
>the migrationists - i.e first assuming that a migration happened
>and then trying to interpret data accordingly.

You do it again. You ascribe an assumption to the migrationists and then
accuse them of chosing data selectively to support their theory. Which is
exactly what your side could be accused of. However, historically, the
original assumption was NOT that the aryans came from Eurasia. (Mallory
gives an historical description here of the course of theoretical
development here). The reason for the "removal" of the Aryans from India to
Europe, was the insight that there were far more Indo-European languages in
Europe than in India, which, among other things, would suggest that Europe
or Eurasia would be the starting point of the Indo-European expansion. Thus,
your retrofitting hypothesis does not really stick.

>This is crucial, especially when equally valid other options/interpretations
>are avaliable - for eg: Retroflexion - is it because of migration or
>is it an internal  development ?
>If one chooses migration -  what evidence is there to choose it ?.
>If one calls it internal development - then what is the available evidence ?.

Retroflexion may be both. Modern Norwegian and Swedish both have
retroflexion, which developed quite independently of Dravidian languages!

>I would pick internal development, because there is no evidence of
>any migration  from evidences like archeology, textual or genetic.

Archaeology: There is some evidence (see Parpola). Textual: See Witzel's
reconstruction of early Indo-Aryan history based on Vedic. Genetic:
According to the genetic studies I have read, there is genetic evidence. I
believe a book on the subject is forthcoming in India with a contribution by
Cavalli-Sforza.

>If one notices, the original evidence for a invasion/migration
>i.e textual (racist interpretations like dasa,anaasa etc) and archeological
>(Harappa was destroyed by invading aryans..) are no longer valid.

That is perfectly true. A very good deconstruction of the racist theory is
given by Trautmann in his book on the Ayans and the British. And Indologists
ceased believing in the alleged Aryan destruction of the Harappan culture
many years ago. I think since Wilhelm Rau wrote about the forts that the
Aryans destroyed, which was in the early seventies.

>Thus the original evidence on which invasion/migration was postulated
>doesnt exist !...So - the linguistic evidence  which relied on such
>archeological confirmation is also suspect !!.

Not true. SOME of the supposed evidence has been discarded. But certainly
not all. And new evidence has emerged.

>The bottom line is - when linguistic evidence is proposed - corroborative
>evidence from other sources should be available. Proceeding with an
>initial assumption of a migration, interpreting linguistic data accordingly
>and then asserting that there is linguistic evidence of a migration is
>example of a "circular" evidence.

Corroborative evidence is always an advantage. But I know of no historical
example where a language family has spread over a large part of a continent
simply by dint of example. If the Aryan languages didn't come from India,
they would have to have entered the subcontinent, and to be carried there by
a group of people large enough to make a real impact. I suspect that by the
year 1000 BCE, Northern India was a bit like Latin America 300 years ago:
Lots of Europeans streaming in, mostly Spanish speaking, and confronting the
local populations.

>For the rest, I guess we should agree to diagree and leave it at that.

I am afraid you are right. It is a bit sad that you don't want to discuss
the methodical problems involved in the study of ancient history. Discussing
proofs when we don't even agree upon what would constitute a proof is a bit
futile.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 19 16:20:37 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 11:20:37 -0500
Subject: English retroflexion (was: Tampering with history)
In-Reply-To: <358d46f0.510283154@mail.wxs.nl>
Message-ID: <161227040084.23782.5685943558082837656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:

>Another example is English, where /r/ is pronounced as retroflex [R.]
>in some varieties (notably American English).
>
Can you give an example?  As a native speaker of American English, I am not
aware of any retroflexion in my speech.

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 19 20:14:07 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 13:14:07 -0700
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040049.23782.15821056800707716513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Check the URL <http://sdlcfsn.cs.iitm.ernet.in/tidbits.html>, for
software being developed for Grantha characters at IIT, Chennai. The
necessary files are not available on the IIT website or at their ftp
site, but write to <rkk at shiva.iitm.ernet.in>.

As an aside, the vehement discussion about Grantha on the Tamil
discussion list a few months ago didn't seem to know about this effort
at IIT at all. It might be useful not to duplicate effort.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jun 19 19:42:51 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 13:42:51 -0600
Subject: artisans
Message-ID: <161227040044.23782.3613797862892725270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  Different artisans working on royal buildings
  occurs in Manimekalai, the twin epic of Cilappatikaaram.
  Workers from Magada country, mechanic/smiths from Maharashtra,
  blacksmiths from Avanti, yavana carpenters, tamil artisans are
  referred to in the following Manimekalai section:

 "makata vin2aijnarum marATTak kammarum
 avantik kollarum yavan2at taccarum
 taN tamiz vin2aijnar tammoTu kUTik
 koNTu in2itu iyaRRiya kaN kavar ceyvin2aip
 pavaLat tiraL kAl pal maNip pOtikai
 tavaLa nittilat tAmam tAznta
 kONac canti mAN vin2ai vitAn2attu
 taman2iyam vEynta vakai peRu van2appin2
 paijn cERu mezukAp pacum pon2 maNTapattu .."

 For translation, see the recent one by
 T. V. Gopal Iyer & A. Danielou.

 Regards,
 N. Ganesan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 19 18:04:14 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 14:04:14 -0400
Subject: artisnas from different regions (Re: yoga-paTTa)
Message-ID: <161227040038.23782.8059173451912634365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-19 05:25:36 EDT, you write:

<< For several days I've been stumped
 trying to recall where I read, way back when, about artisans from several
 specific regions of India, at work for some South Indian king.  I thought
 it might have been the Cilappatikaram, but couldn't find such a passage in
 K.N Subramaniyam's _rendering_. >>

Since I did not see any response for this query, here is my suggestion. Did
you try maNimEkalai? As I am on the road, I cannot give the exact reference.
If my memory is right, the lines go something like this.

makata vin2aiJarum marATTak kammarum
avantik kollarum yavan2at taccarum
taNtamiz vin2aiJar tammoTuG kUTi...

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jun 19 20:06:23 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 14:06:23 -0600
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040046.23782.3263187704087534710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Creating PC fonts for grantha characters will be great and must be done.
Many outside TN have told me that grantha characters are beautiful.

Here is B. Philip Jonsson <bpj at netg.se> writing in Indology on
16 may 97
"If you don't find any, I might give a shot at designing a Grantha font --
.. I've been dreaming of it ever since I read Bartolomei's Sanskrit
grammar in fascimile! :-) I for one don't think Devanagarai particularly
beautiful -- with the possible exception of the font Whitney used in
his grammar ..."

The "SaivAgamAs printed by the Pondichery Institute can be made available
in the grantha script. Sivachariyars in temples in S. India,
Sri Lanka, Malaysia, US ... have expressed this. Grantha is the
"saiva aagamas' native script as many aagamas were collected from their
homes.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From mcv at WXS.NL  Fri Jun 19 14:42:47 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 14:42:47 +0000
Subject: Tampering with history
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980619135317.00949dfc@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <161227040028.23782.906575701860840336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Sn. Subrahmanya" <sns at IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:

>This is very debatable. It is not right to say that India does not have
>linguistic diversity !!. The range of languages in India is mind boggling.
>Actually, the presence of Kentum traces in some of the Indian languages,
>that has been suggested by Zoller isnt much of a surprise to Indigenists.
>Also, it wouldnt be surprising at all if more Kentum traces are found in
>the Dardic, Kafir and other languages in N.India.
>From Tarim Basin to Baluchistan you find tremendous variety of languages -
>Tocharian, Dardic,so called "Kafir", Bangani, Brahui etc...

Excuse me, but the question is _Indo-European_ linguistic diversity
in the _Indian subcontinent_.  That excludes Tocharian (the Tarim
Basin is in Central Asia) and Brahui (Dravidian) [as well as
Burushaski (isolate) and Nihali (isolate)].  This leaves just one
Indo-European subgroup (Indo-Iranian: subdivided into Iranian,
Nuristani (Kafiri), Dardic and Indo-Aryan).  Maybe two, if
Pre-Bangani is for real.

Between Anatolia, Europe and Central Asia there are a dozen or so
Indo-European subgroups, the most basic split of all being that
between Anatolian (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, etc.) and all the rest.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun 19 22:16:13 1998
From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 15:16:13 -0700
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
In-Reply-To: <01IYFDBB3NYQ00BWFQ@cl.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040059.23782.18145521933026974258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, N. Ganesan wrote:

> Thanks for choosing l_macron-b for
> the special "l" found only in Tamil and Malayalam.

For my clarity:

Isn't this the same l_macron-b used to transliterate the "L" in "iLe" --
"agniM iLe purohitaM ..."?

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 19 20:22:40 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 15:22:40 -0500
Subject: Tampering with history I
Message-ID: <161227040051.23782.7072660573556307512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 09:18 AM 6/19/98 -0400, Michael Witzel wrote:
>
>I provided a list of items from the spiritual and material culture
>etc. of the Rgveda last week and invited members to show that these
>items could have developed in South Asia and could have spread from there
>to Iran, Turkey, Europe..
>
>Interestingly, nobody has tried so far....
>

well here goes...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Some items:
>
>1. Linguistics. How can even the oldest hymns of the Rgveda (1500, 4000,
>8000 BC???) have the absolutive (ga-tvaa, samgam-ya etc)  but none of the
>other Indo-European languages (not even the closely related dialects of
>Old Iranian)??
>If Early Sanskrit had spread from the Panjab westwards and become IE
>elsewhere why did the emigrants forget their absolutives as soon as the
>crossed the Khyber or Bolan passes?
>

The Rgveda is mostly representative of the Puru language and not of all Arya
presence in Afghanistan,Tajikistan and the Tarim Basin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>2. Religion. Why does India have the clearly archaic "FATHER HEAVEN" DYAUS
>PITAA(R) (e.g. 'wrong' accusative dyAm, Greek zEn etc.) who is found in
>Greek, Latin etc. but lost as an "active" deity almost immediately after
>the Rgveda; he survived into historical times in Rome, Greece, Sweden etc.
>(and Engl. "Tues-day). Where is the Indian source for that concept (and of
>mother earth) in Dravidian, Burushaski, Munda, the Indus Seals etc etc.?
>
You are basing the argument on your dating the Rgveda to
1500BC and then stating it was lost 'immediately' afterwords.
The Vedic religion is the Indian source (more specifically Puru).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>3. Ritual. Horse sacrifice is widely spread from Ireland to Waragaean
>Russia (and, yes, to the Sintashta burials East of the Urals) but it is
>also found with the neighboring Turkic peoples ( I think down to be start
>of this century in the Altai Mountains). But where is the Indian source of
>this (before, let us be modest, the Swat Valley sites in the middle of the
>2nd millennium BC.)
>The central role of fire rituals?
>Even nicer: the origin of the ancestor rituals, such as zraaddha &
>pinda-s...
>
Again, you dont agree with the fire altars from SIVC. Also, it is strange
that if these were simple cooking places, that they would be on a raised
platform in an important location.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>4.Domesticated Animals. Why do the Indo-Aryans (in the Rgveda) use
>non-Indian (+ IE) terms for domesticated cows (same archaic accusative
>forms as in Dyaus Pitaa), sheep, goat, -- all of which had been found
>there since 7000 BC or so; (and of course for the horse which has not
>conclusively been attested in S.  Asia before 1700 BC). Why not local
>words such as Dravidian, Munda etc.???
>
I would suggest that you find out how long  the Akhal Teke horse has been
present in Turkmenistan. Then we will find out whethar the Harappans
knew about horses or not. The Rgvedic terms are local Indian terms.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
>5. Wild animals. Why do they also do so for *colder* climate animals such
>as the wolf, beaver etc.? And conversely, why do the "emigrant'
>Indo_Euro[peans in Iran and Europe do not use ANY linguistically local
>Indian words for tropical animals such as tiger (pundarika), lion (simha)
>etc. but OTHER, non_Indian words (tiger, leo(n)/lis/sher) ??  Again
>collective amnesia the moment they crossed the Khyber into Iran??  (The
>Gypsies who came from NW India *DO* remember: pani, churi...; "I/you..
>do": karav, karas, karal...)
>
>6. Plants. Why do some colder climate plants survive in Sanskrit but not
>vice versa, Indian words in Iran/Europe? Bhuurja "birch tree", probably
>the willow, but not: pipal tree, lotos flower (which is found in Iran, and
>in a smaller variety even in Europe (though I do not know since when),etc.
>
Of course Tarim Basin,Tajikistan and Afghanistan are cold regions.
AFAIK, there is no conclusive evidence in this matter. All kinds
of areas have been postulated based on these methods.
More on this after I get some more literature by ILL.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>7. Family. Why does IE family structure (patrilinear etc., Omaha type )
>and the designation for it agree with the Vedic one but not with the
>Dravidian and Munda one?
>
What kind of family structure have you been able to create for
Dravidian, Munda societies ?  How have you decided that the Dravidian
or Munda societies were not patrilinear ? .
You could very well be talking about family structure of any ancient
group of people. There is nothing special about the IE family structure.
All these are just vague generalities.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>8. Society. Why does the structure of society (even without Dumezil) agree
>with the IE one, including the role of "kings" and poets/priests? What
>about the role of the poets, their training, maybe their several "levels
>of status"?
>
Again,What is this special structure of the IE society ? All societies have
divisions in their society. How have you decided that this society is
incompatible with Harappan society. This could be any ancient society for
that matter. Again refer to 7.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>9. Poetry. Why is early Dravidian poetry in concept and form so different
>from the Rgvedic one, which shares many items with the Iranian and IE
>poetry in general? Including the Vedic/Iranian/Greek 11-syllable meter?
>The two level poetic language (sacred/non-sacred; gods: adversaries). And
>why no export of the Tamil model westwards? What about IE sorcery spells
>(Atharvaveda-Old High German, AV - Hittite, etc.)?
>
Relationships between Dravidian and Finno-Ugric languages have been postulated.
I hope that you realize you are talking of very different time periods.
Also, please provide some references.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>10. Technology. Why does Vedic share technological terms with Iran/Europe
>(wheel, axle, axe, carpenter, etc.) but not with India?  (akSa > accu,
>aaNi are early loans into Tamil).
>
This probably coulld be explained by a migration out of the Indian Linguistic
Area. I presume you are also not implying that the Harappans did not know
these items.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Additionally - I would also like to bring to your attention.
The celtic weaves "endless knot motifs" of the Tocharians, the
nomads of the Zagros region of Iran and later on in Europe -
and then figure out the direction of the movement of the tribes.

Bottom line - you havent provided any conclusive evidence that proves
that the Rgvedic people were not indigenous to India.
That is why, we have to wait for more data to be available.
Hopefully, in the coming years we will know more from the 'migration trail
archeology' and then we will definitely have conclusive evidence.
Also, if the Rgveda (or even parts of it) is dated to before the appearance
of the Hittites then there will have to be a reevaluation of the current
theories accepted in the West.

More later, when my wrist heals.

Regards,
Subrahmanya




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 19 20:24:14 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 15:24:14 -0500
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040054.23782.15906984676916340483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:42 PM 6/19/98 GMT, you wrote:
>
>Excuse me, but the question is _Indo-European_ linguistic diversity
>in the _Indian subcontinent_.  That excludes Tocharian (the Tarim
>Basin is in Central Asia) and Brahui (Dravidian) [as well as
>Burushaski (isolate) and Nihali (isolate)].  This leaves just one
>Indo-European subgroup (Indo-Iranian: subdivided into Iranian,
>Nuristani (Kafiri), Dardic and Indo-Aryan).  Maybe two, if
>Pre-Bangani is for real.
>

All the languages mentioned are from areas under Indian influence
-linguistically and culturally.

Regards,
Subrahmanya




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jun 19 22:11:27 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 16:11:27 -0600
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227040058.23782.15321184409674583668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for choosing l_macron-b for
the special "l" found only in Tamil and Malayalam.

As for Tamil literature, in all the US university press
publications and especially those of K. Zvelebil starting from his
Smile of Murugan to the recent "Lexicon of Tamil
literature" (E. J. Brill), l_mac-b is consistently
used following Madras univ. Tamil lexicon.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Jun 19 20:35:57 1998
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 16:35:57 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227040056.23782.11621224330893662084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues

Many thanks to all who contributed to the recent discussion.   It is
important that it was raised.

It is not critical that l_macr-b uses the diacritic otherwise used by
alveolars.   It is the choice of LC Tables for both Malayalam and Tamil,
hence common in library catalogs and listed as plain 'l' in their
computers.    Also, it is commonly used when transliterating S Indian
scripts in scholarly works.   Hence I shall put this in the draft standard.

LC Tables for Kannada have l_dia-b, which (like r_dia-b) makes for poor
readability.   The draft standard will have l_macr-b uniformly.

On June 18, 1998, S Palaniappan wrote: 

>> "Tamil" is a well established form in English.   One may see "Tamizh"
>> already, but there would be no real need for "Tamiz" to come in.   (The
>> standard is not going to suggest a simplified transliteration with the
>> diacritics simply omitted.    Without diacritics,  Tamil .t usually
becomes
>> t and t becomes th.   Also .s usually becomes sh and "s becomes either 
>sh or s.)
>
>But there is one context of relevance to scholars where this will happen. 
>I am talking about the computerized catalogs of libraries in US libraries 
>and possibly other countries using similar systems. . . .
> . . .
>Please note that here no diacritic marks are possible. Dental "t" is just
"t", 
>not "th". (In fact retroflex "T" will also be "t".) The l_macr-b letter is
just "l".  
>In fact, most of existing collections with titles with this letter will be
listed in 
>the catalogs like this. If, according to the new standard, they become
z_dot-b, 
>then the newer acquisitions will end up with lists showing "-z-", while
the old 
>books will have -l-. Unless, the libraries modify the software to
automatically 
>list both varieties, every time one searches for an item with this letter
in title 
>(or even author) one will have to go through twice as many steps. One has
to 
>search for items once with a title with -l- and once with -z-.  . . .
>
>Generally, life will be a lot simpler if we just continue with l_macr-b.

Regards,   Tony

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
Indic scripts.    Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com                       
     Thinking aloud on  transliteration:
   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU  Sat Jun 20 01:29:52 1998
From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 18:29:52 -0700
Subject: Grantha characters
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980619200710.451fc554@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <161227040063.23782.12659991923169206380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry for the confusion.  I was too hasty.  THe 'this' refers to the
explanation why Grantha was created.  It seemed to me the original
statemetnt made it seem as though writers of Tamil script had formed their
character set before they were familiar with Sanskrit and THEN, when they
did desire to write Sanskrit there was no existing alternative script and
so they created a new one (Grantha).  My confusion (ignorance) is with
regard to the historical relation between Grantha and Tamil scripts.

Peter Claus


On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote:

> It is difficult to know what the word "this"
> refers to in prof. Claus 's statement


> >> They have to use a different
> >> script because the tamil with a single letter for the first four
> >> letters of each varga (absence of some other letters also) is inadequate
> >> to transliterate sanskrit works.




From vlelizar at CITYLINE.RU  Fri Jun 19 14:57:08 1998
From: vlelizar at CITYLINE.RU (Alexandre V. Elizariev)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 18:57:08 +0400
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040031.23782.6888206937685003411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If you mean Gurmukhi, here is one I remapped myself (see att.)

Alexandre Elizariev

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Neuss <jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: 19 ???? 1998 ?. 3:07
Subject: Grantha characters


>Dear Subscribers,
>Does anyone know whether there is any TrueTypeFont of Grantha characters
>available? Or, alternatively, a good tool to create one?
>--
>jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>
>
>
>Juergen Neuss
>
>Freie Universitaet Berlin
>
>Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
>
>K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a
>
>14195 Berlin
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Fri Jun 19 18:14:38 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 19:14:38 +0100
Subject: Grantha characters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980619101103.3241A-100000@haywire.csuhayward .edu>
Message-ID: <161227040040.23782.10495425308594096229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is difficult to know what the word "this"
refers to in prof. Claus 's statement, which
will make matters even worse, since there is already
a confusion in the first answer

As I understand it, gurmukhi is a North Indian Script
(it has even a Unicode range assigned),
and there are commercial packages available for it
that should not be pirated ;;;  :-)

As regards Grantha, it is/was used, as explained below
by DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA, in Tamil Nadu
for writing Sanskrit (many sanskrit manuscripts are in Grantha).

As regards sanskrit fonts in Grantha Typeface,
the French Institute in Pondicherry was very much
desirous to find one, a few years ago, but could not
succeed. The situation might hopefully have improved
but it is not absolutely certain, since popular demand
will be low ...  :-)

As regards a font editor for creating a sanskrit font
in Grantha typeface from scratch, please consider that it is
a lot of work: you will lose a lot of time and the result
will not be satisfactory ... ;-)

If you are not afraid, join the comp.fonts newsgroup (on UseNet) !!!

The best solution would be to convince C-Dac or some company
like it to create one ... That's my best advice ...

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD



A 10:12 19/06/98 -0700,
vous ("Peter J. Claus" <pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>) avez ?crit :
>Isn't this an anachronism?  (I really don't know, not being a specialist.)
       ^^^^
       ^^^^
>
>Peter Claus
>
>
>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:
>
>> I believe Grantha chracters or GranthAkSaram is the script used in 
>> Tamil Nadu to write sanskrit works. They have to use a different
>> script because the tamil with a single letter for the first four 
>> letters of each varga (absence of some other letters also) is inadequate 
>> to transliterate sanskrit works.
>> 
>> regards,
>> 
>> sarma. 
>> 
>> At 06:57 PM 6/19/98 +0400, you wrote:
>> >If you mean Gurmukhi, here is one I remapped myself (see att.)
>> >
>> >Alexandre Elizariev
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Juergen Neuss <jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
>> >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>> >Date: 19 ???? 1998 ?. 3:07
>> >Subject: Grantha characters
>> >
>> >
>> >>Dear Subscribers,
>> >>Does anyone know whether there is any TrueTypeFont of Grantha characters
>> >>available? Or, alternatively, a good tool to create one?
>> >>--
>> >>jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Juergen Neuss
>> >>
>> >>Freie Universitaet Berlin
>> >>
>> >>Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
>> >>
>> >>K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a
>> >>
>> >>14195 Berlin
>> >>
>> >
>> >Attachment Converted: D:\EUDORA15\EUDORA\ATTACH\ftpnjam.TTF
>> >
>> 
>




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Fri Jun 19 23:14:47 1998
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 19:14:47 -0400
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040061.23782.12394521264340039239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Peter J. Claus wrote:

> Isn't this an anachronism?  (I really don't know, not being a specialist.)

If you are interested in getting Vedic texts with almost no svara-s
wrong you would find it very difficult to get these in the devanagari
script. All such good books are in grantha characters. Perhaps other
languages like Telugu may have good books also.

Rama.




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Fri Jun 19 18:31:17 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 19:31:17 +0100
Subject: artisnas from different regions (Re: yoga-paTTa)
In-Reply-To: <b0e1d6ae.358aa81f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227040042.23782.6782660778171248717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 14:04 19/06/98 EDT,
vous (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>) avez ?crit :

>In a message dated 98-06-19 05:25:36 EDT, you write:
>
><< For several days I've been stumped
> trying to recall where I read, way back when, about artisans from several
> specific regions of India, at work for some South Indian king.  I thought
> it might have been the Cilappatikaram, but couldn't find such a passage in
> K.N Subramaniyam's _rendering_. >>
>
>Since I did not see any response for this query, here is my suggestion. Did
>you try maNimEkalai? As I am on the road, I cannot give the exact reference.
>If my memory is right, the lines go something like this.
>
>makata vin2aiJarum marATTak kammarum
>avantik kollarum yavan2at taccarum
>taNtamiz vin2aiJar tammoTuG kUTi...
>
>Regards
>S. Palaniappan
>

The lines are almost exactly like this in U.V.S. 's edition (p.212)
except that it says "tammoTu kUTi ..." at the end ....

The reference is Canto XIX, lines 107-109

There is a "joint translation" by Danielou (he did not do much...)
and T.V.Gopal Iyer (ISBN 0-8112-1097-9 or ISBN 0-8112-1098-7)
that reads, on page 81 (description of an audience hall):

"It was the work of the best craftsmen from the cool
 Tamil country, together with sculptors from Magadha,
 skilled in working rare stone, goldsmiths from the Maratha
 country, blacksmiths from Avanti, and Greek (Yavana)
 carpenters. ........."

Regards

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Fri Jun 19 18:56:15 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 20:56:15 +0200
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040048.23782.11561574892403660605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

Retroflexion may be both. Modern Norwegian and Swedish both have
retroflexion, which developed quite independently of Dravidian languages!

I can add two more examples: two `remote' areas of the former Roman empire,
namely Puglia in South Italy and the island of Sardinia, have preserved the
the retroflex sound, spelled as a double dd, and pronounced as the Indian
retroflex .d On the whole, the language in these areas is far more archaic than
modern Italian, for example, they still say `kelu' for, where the Italians say
`cielo' (`heaven', Latin: celum. Pronunciation c=k). So, I cannot escape the
expression that there is a development WITHIN Indo-European of retroflex
sounds, and this already in an early stage.

Dr. Alexandra van der Geer
Leiden, The Netherlands
E-mail: info at ticonsole.nl




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jun 19 16:51:23 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 21:51:23 +0500
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040034.23782.2613352774168819591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe Grantha chracters or GranthAkSaram is the script used in 
Tamil Nadu to write sanskrit works. They have to use a different
script because the tamil with a single letter for the first four 
letters of each varga (absence of some other letters also) is inadequate 
to transliterate sanskrit works.

regards,

sarma. 

At 06:57 PM 6/19/98 +0400, you wrote:
>If you mean Gurmukhi, here is one I remapped myself (see att.)
>
>Alexandre Elizariev
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Juergen Neuss <jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>Date: 19 ???? 1998 ?. 3:07
>Subject: Grantha characters
>
>
>>Dear Subscribers,
>>Does anyone know whether there is any TrueTypeFont of Grantha characters
>>available? Or, alternatively, a good tool to create one?
>>--
>>jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>>
>>
>>
>>Juergen Neuss
>>
>>Freie Universitaet Berlin
>>
>>Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
>>
>>K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a
>>
>>14195 Berlin
>>
>
>Attachment Converted: D:\EUDORA15\EUDORA\ATTACH\ftpnjam.TTF
>




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sat Jun 20 07:10:42 1998
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 00:10:42 -0700
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040069.23782.17050802904609826384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 08:53 AM 6/19/98 -0500, Subrahmanya wrote:

>Please give details, as to what has not been discarded and what the new
>evidence is.


Dear Subrahmanya,

How can you ask for details only to dismiss them with one-liners such as:

>Witzels reconstruction of Vedic Textual history demands all kinds
>of reminiscences !!.  Let us not get into that again.

M. Witzel has been providing a lot of information that requires careful
consideration, not condescending statements such as the one above (whatever
it means).

Superficial generalizations won't do, such as:

"The Vedic religion is the Indian source (more specifically Puru)."

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I suspect that by the
>>year 1000 BCE, Northern India was a bit like Latin America 300 years ago:
>>Lots of Europeans streaming in, mostly Spanish speaking, and confronting the
>>local populations.
>>
>Wrong!. First you have to prove that whatever area in Central Asia could
produce
>the population needed to overwhelm all of North India and impose its own
culture
>and language on a more advanced civilization.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hasn't Witzel (and others) repeated this ad nauseam; it is not an invasion
of millions of people crushing everything in sight, it is an intruding
linguistic and cultural influence.  Or are you implying that millions of
Spaniards descended on Latin America, and that is why Spanish is now the
dominant language there (and Catholicism the main religion)?  Did Spain have
"the population needed to overwhelm all of" Latin America?

Please pay more careful attention to opinions that are derived from years of
careful analysis.  Please also dispel the ghosts of racist prejudices.  You
need to realize that you insist on attacking a long extinct enemy, at least
as far as discussions on this list are concerned.  Nobody on this list (that
I am aware) is attacking India, however you wish to construct it.


Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Sat Jun 20 06:32:48 1998
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 02:32:48 -0400
Subject: Draft transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227040067.23782.15873760734572026907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On June 19, 1998,  Anshuman Pandey wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, N. Ganesan wrote:
>
>> Thanks for choosing l_macron-b for > the special "l" found only in Tamil
and Malayalam.
>
>For my clarity:
>
>Isn't this the same l_macron-b used to transliterate the "L" in "iLe" --
"agniM iLe purohitaM ..."?

I believe that has sometimes been used, but in the draft scheme it is
l_dot-b.

Regards, Tony

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
Indic scripts.   
20 Harding Close, Redbourn, St Albans, Herts, AL3 7NT, UK.     Tel: +44 (0)
1582 792 497
Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com                             Thinking
aloud on  transliteration:
   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From mcv at WXS.NL  Sat Jun 20 05:21:54 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 05:21:54 +0000
Subject: Tampering with history
In-Reply-To: <01BD9BC8.C9FC1FB0@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040065.23782.5499141622210836938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"T.I. Console" <info at TICONSOLE.NL> wrote:

>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
>Retroflexion may be both. Modern Norwegian and Swedish both have
>retroflexion, which developed quite independently of Dravidian languages!
>
>I can add two more examples: two `remote' areas of the former Roman empire,
>namely Puglia in South Italy and the island of Sardinia, have preserved the
>the retroflex sound, spelled as a double dd, and pronounced as the Indian
>retroflex .d On the whole, the language in these areas is far more archaic than
>modern Italian, for example, they still say `kelu' for, where the Italians say
>`cielo' (`heaven', Latin: celum. Pronunciation c=k). So, I cannot escape the
>expression that there is a development WITHIN Indo-European of retroflex
>sounds, and this already in an early stage.

Not so early for Sardo and S. Italian (Campania, Sicily, Calabria,
Puglia) /ll/ > /d.d./, a change which is dated to the 14th c. AD. (In
Puglia, retroflexion has now been lost: d.d. > dd).  Some varieties
of Asturian (Bable) in Spain also have /d./ from Latin /ll/.

Another example is English, where /r/ is pronounced as retroflex [R.]
in some varieties (notably American English).

The "sh" sounds of Russian and Polish (sz) are also retroflex, at
least from an acoustical point of view, and are pronounced exactly
like Sanskrit <s.>, Swedish <rs> or Chinese <sh>.

Retroflex sounds occur in many other languages of the world, from
Africa through Eurasia to the Americas.  They are particularly common
in Australian Aboriginal languages.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU  Sat Jun 20 14:36:14 1998
From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 07:36:14 -0700
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <v01510100630b62c487f1@[199.201.159.75]>
Message-ID: <161227040081.23782.1187564293492513057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Although George Thompson has already made the point, and again I am
speaking to an issue for which I have very little expertise,
it seems to me that the almost random and non-systematic (not part of a
series of similar phonemes) development of retroflexion in a few examples
within a family could probably be found to have happened with almost any
sound shift.  To take this as a serious objection to the probability of
the effects of contact would seem so unreasonable as to disallow any such
argument in any language family.  Indeed, if one used a parallel argument
(similar sound and meaning occurring in unrelated languages) against the
occurrence of cognates without origin in genetic or
historic contact, where would historical linguistics be?


On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, George Thompson wrote:

> In response to the recent post of Sandra van der Geer:
>
> >in Australian Aboriginal languages.
> >
> >Consequently, it may be wiser not to conclude anything on the ground
> >of presence of lack of retroflex sounds. It seems to be intrinsic to
> >human speech.
> >
>
> While it is very useful to have the evidence of retroflexion cited by van
> der Geer, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal, and Lars Martin Fosse, -- reminding us
> that such phonemes are widespread in human language --, the *particular*
> problem of the origin of retroflexion in Vedic remains an open one. This is
> the view also of Hans Heinrich Hock in his recent overview of the problem
> "Pre-Rgvedic Convergence Between Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and Dravidian? A
> Survey of the Issues and Controversies" [in the volume edited by Jan
> Houben, *Ideology and Status of Sanskrit*, 1996].
>
> Leaving aside Subrahmanya [who appears unwilling to agree with anything],
> perhaps we can all agree that the problem is this:
>
> In the Common Indo-Iranian period there is no retroflexion [at least no
> phonemic retroflexion]. Then after the two branch away from each other
> retroflexion appears in Indic. It happens that retroflexion also appears in
> Dravidian [even if the phonemic system of proto-Dravidian is quite
> different from that of early Indic [e.g., Vedic].
>
> Now, either retroflexion arose internally or it arose as a result of
> contact between two distinct language families in the Indian sub-continent.
>
>
> As far as I can tell, there is still no definitive argument in favor of
> either one of these alternatives.
>
> Is this something everyone would agree to?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George Thompson
>




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sat Jun 20 14:23:55 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 08:23:55 -0600
Subject: Vivekananda &c.
Message-ID: <161227040077.23782.12596734491401863255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some were interested in Swami Vivekananda's "patterns" of
missionary speeches. The following is a recent study.

William Radice, Swami Vivekananda and the Modernization
of Hinduism, Oxford univ. press, 1998

Radice has translated from Bengali, edited Tagore poems for
Penguin, ..

N. Ganesan




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sat Jun 20 14:33:49 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 08:33:49 -0600
Subject: Nowhere/Now here
Message-ID: <161227040079.23782.15181273364198245969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Always charmed by English statement:
"God is nowhere" can be made into "God is now here" too.

In Tamil, "naTaraajar illAtatillai" is an equivalent.

This can be split as:
"naTaraajar illAtatu illai" - Nothing is without Nataraja.
   OR
"naTaraajar illAta  tillai" - Chidambaram (world) is without Nataraja.

Have a good weekend,
n. ganesan




From thompson at JLC.NET  Sat Jun 20 13:55:30 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 08:55:30 -0500
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040076.23782.5126166189003608088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to the recent post of Sandra van der Geer:

>in Australian Aboriginal languages.
>
>Consequently, it may be wiser not to conclude anything on the ground
>of presence of lack of retroflex sounds. It seems to be intrinsic to
>human speech.
>

While it is very useful to have the evidence of retroflexion cited by van
der Geer, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal, and Lars Martin Fosse, -- reminding us
that such phonemes are widespread in human language --, the *particular*
problem of the origin of retroflexion in Vedic remains an open one. This is
the view also of Hans Heinrich Hock in his recent overview of the problem
"Pre-Rgvedic Convergence Between Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and Dravidian? A
Survey of the Issues and Controversies" [in the volume edited by Jan
Houben, *Ideology and Status of Sanskrit*, 1996].

Leaving aside Subrahmanya [who appears unwilling to agree with anything],
perhaps we can all agree that the problem is this:

In the Common Indo-Iranian period there is no retroflexion [at least no
phonemic retroflexion]. Then after the two branch away from each other
retroflexion appears in Indic. It happens that retroflexion also appears in
Dravidian [even if the phonemic system of proto-Dravidian is quite
different from that of early Indic [e.g., Vedic].

Now, either retroflexion arose internally or it arose as a result of
contact between two distinct language families in the Indian sub-continent.


As far as I can tell, there is still no definitive argument in favor of
either one of these alternatives.

Is this something everyone would agree to?

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 20 15:09:27 1998
From: nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:09:27 -0400
Subject: Tampering with history
In-Reply-To: <199806200958.LAA11125@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227040083.23782.3213427445258774485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I read  a report in the Times of India, a few years, which said that some
scientists on the basis of genetic evidence had concluded that the
"Havyaka" brahmanas of coastal Karnataka had migrated from Anatolia around
10,000 years ago and that their genetical make up was a lot similar to
the Mukri tribe of the same region who had also migrated from the
Anatolian region around 40,000 years ago. has anyone on the list come
across such a study ?.

Nikhil
> both in Europe and elsewhere. As for South Asia, the genetic evidence would,
> according to Cavalli-Sforza, be compatible with a migration of people from
> Anatolia, which would imply that the Indo-Aryans spent some time in that
> area, and that Anatolians were part of the "genetic make-up" of the Aryans
> that entered Anatolia in the second millenium B.C.E.
>
>
> I do not have to prove anything of the sort. If the Aryans were a mixed lot
> of people, linguistically unified, but genetically diverse, and if there was
> a substantial component of Anatolians among them, there is no reason to
> doubt that there would be enough people to "fill up" parts of India with
> Indo-Aryans. Anyway, we have to define what "many" is supposed to mean.
> Since we do not have censuses for the period, we can only work on the basis
> of models. In other words, we must look at what happened in other places in
> the ancient world. And if we do, there is really little reason to doubt a
> migration theory.
>




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sat Jun 20 09:23:24 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:23:24 +0200
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040070.23782.15915768728021962800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------
Miguel Vidal wrote (regarding retroflex .d.d):

Not so early for Sardo and S. Italian (Campania, Sicily, Calabria,
Puglia) /ll/ > /d.d./, a change which is dated to the 14th c. AD. (In
Puglia, retroflexion has now been lost: d.d. > dd).  Some varieties
of Asturian (Bable) in Spain also have /d./ from Latin /ll/.

Thank you for this extra information. I checked a 14th century
old-Logudorese text, and indeed, I found `cavallu' instead of `caddu'.
Although we will perhaps never know if there was a difference
between text and speech. As to Puglia, ten years ago the retroflex
.d.d was still alive. The city of Gallipolli was pronouned Ga.d.dipo.d.di.

Retroflex sounds occur in many other languages of the world, from
Africa through Eurasia to the Americas.  They are particularly common
in Australian Aboriginal languages.

Consequently, it may be wiser not to conclude anything on the ground
of presence of lack of retroflex sounds. It seems to be intrinsic to
human speech.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
info at ticonsole.nl



=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 20 15:39:16 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:39:16 -0400
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040086.23782.4526361318790692624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-19 09:49:44 EDT, sns at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Wrong!. First you have to prove that whatever area in Central Asia could
produce
 the population needed to overwhelm all of North India and impose its own
culture
 and language on a more advanced civilization. >>

One does not not need overwhelming population to effect cultural change. An
example from historical times in South India can be used here.

There is no evidence to show that the west coast dialect Tamil was any more
Sanskritized than the east coast Tamils before 10th century AD. The
transformation of Kerala into a linguistic and cultural entity separate from
Tamilnadu can be largely attributed to the influence of nambudiri brahmins.
Reputed historians of Kerala, M.G.S. Narayanan and Kesavan Veluthat in an
article "A History of the Nambudiri Community in Kerala" in "Agni" ed.by Frits
Staal, (vol.2, p.256-278) say the following.

"There is every reason to attribute the foundation of the thirty-two
settlements of tradition to the post-Sangam period, preferably to the seventh
and eigth centuries, and to postulate a close connection between these brahmin
settlements and the ninth century phenomenon of the rise of the later cEra
kingdom of makOtai or mahOdayapuram.

....The new Cera or Kerala dynasty had its capital city at makOtai or
mahOdayapuram, which is identified with modern koduGgallUr. The perumALs
claimed kSatriya status and, like the guptas, cAlukyas, pallavas and others,
proudly proclaimed their championship of varNAzramadharma.  They were great
patrons of the temples, which were controlled by the Kerala brahmins. Among
these kings were cEramAn perumAL nAyan2Ar, one of the sixty-three Tamil zaiva
saints, and kulazEkhara AzvAr, one of the twelve  saints of Tamil vaiSNavism.
It was during the later cEra period that Kerala brahmins developed into an
organized, powerful, wealthy, landowning community enjoying the paronage of
the state. They formed an oligarchy supporting the perumAL's government, thus
accelerating the process by which a rigid hierarchical caste system  was
established. Gradually the influence of these brahmins from Tulu-Kannada areas
and their nAyar followers weaned Kerala away from the common Tamil heritage.
This period also witnessed the beginnings of the development that shaped
Malayalam into a separate language." (p.259)

What was the proportion of these nambudiri brahmins in the total population of
kerala?

"It may be suggested that, since we are able to identify about seventy temples
from this period, about a hundred or so may have been in existence. If we
calculate on an average ratte of ten brahmin families per temple we get a
thousand families. If again we assume an average of ten members per family,
the total nambudiri population during the later period may have been only
about ten thousand. Leaving a generous margin for unnoticed temples, this
number might be doubled. Since the armies of the cEra perumAL and his vassals
alone numbered several thousand, these ten or twenty thousand brahmins must
have formed only about one or two percent of the total population of Kerala.
However, they enjoyed high status and possessed property and influence out of
all proportion to their numbers." (p.265)

For comparison purposes, one should note that among the main castes of Kerala,
in 1931 nambudiris formed 0.15% in Travancore, 0.5% in Cochin and less than
0.7% in Malabar. (C. J. Fuller's "The Nayars Today", 1976, p. 37)

The similarities between the Kerala situation and the Vedic situation can be:

The pre-RV aryans can be compared to brahmins in Tamilnadu-Kerala who were
there for several centuries and who had even important CT poets among them.

Nambudiri brahmins can be compared to the RV aryans.

The linguistic and cultural changes resulting from the influence of nambudiris
can be compared to the far-reaching linguistic and social changes that have
been thought to have happened in the area under consideration. (If you are
interested in the Dravidian kinship system there is a book by Thomas Trautman
where you will also find a discussion about the differences between the north
and south Indian systems.)

The hypergamous conjugal relationship called sambandham of nambudiris with
nAyar women has parallels in the puranic tradition where many brahmin rishis
fathered children of kSatriya princesses.

In short, while the cAlukyas could not achieve alienation of any part of
Tamilakam on a permanent basis though their prolonged military conflicts with
the Tamil kings, the nambudiri brahmin immigrants were able to achieve through
linguistic/cultural conversion. Many Keralites (not linguistic scholars) still
think that Malayalam originated in Sanskrit in the same way many indigenous
Aryan theorists view all Dravidian languages as originating in Sanskrit.

With the right combination of socio-political factors, even a small group of
immigrants can effect major social changes.


Regards
S. Palaniappan




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sat Jun 20 18:47:54 1998
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:47:54 -0700
Subject: RV 9.67.31-32
In-Reply-To: <01IYAV4Q68JC94E4O3@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl>
Message-ID: <161227040088.23782.9761560430766415803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jan E.M. Houben wrote:
>
>Interesting also: RV 9.67.32: sa'rasvatI "milks" (gives as a cow) "milk,
>butter, honey and water/ and sweet water." (Verses 31-32 of this hymn are
>missing in vanNooten and Holland's recent edition, HOS 50! I think the editors
>went here a bit too far in their attempt to restore a more original text).

Fyi,
I forwarded the above quote to Gary Holland, who wrote back to me that he
had noticed the missing of these stanzas three years ago.
As far as I know, van Nooten & Holland worked last year on a revised
edition of their RV (HOS 50), which may come out, perhaps, in another year.

With best wishes,

Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Jun 20 09:58:02 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:58:02 +0200
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040072.23782.779679612657486938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sn Subrahmania wrote:

>>The reason for the "removal" of the Aryans from India to
>>Europe, was the insight that there were far more Indo-European languages in
>>Europe than in India, which, among other things, would suggest that Europe
>>or Eurasia would be the starting point of the Indo-European expansion. Thus,
>>your retrofitting hypothesis does not really stick.
>>
>This is very debatable. It is not right to say that India does not have
>linguistic diversity !!. The range of languages in India is mind boggling.

No one is denying that. I was talking about Indo-European languages.

>Actually, the presence of Kentum traces in some of the Indian languages,
>that has been suggested by Zoller isnt much of a surprise to Indigenists.
>Also, it wouldnt be surprising at all if more Kentum traces are found in
>the Dardic, Kafir and other languages in N.India.
>From Tarim Basin to Baluchistan you find tremendous variety of languages -
>Tocharian, Dardic,so called "Kafir", Bangani, Brahui etc...

The status of Bangani is so far debatable. As for Brahui, it is Dravidian,
not Indo-European. There is a debate on whether Brahui is the descendant of
the people that inhabited the Harappa region, or whether it was introduced
in its present place in medieval times through a migration.

>Also migrationists typically tend to regard the language of the Rgveda as
>indicative of all Arya presence in the subcontinent. This is not correct.
>The Rgveda mostly represents a Puru dialect. There were most definitely
>other people in the area who  considered themselves "Arya" as well.

I think it is clear from Prakrit languages that the dialect situation was
more complex than the written testimonies would seem to imply. But linguists
are aware of that.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Retroflexion may be both. Modern Norwegian and Swedish both have
>>retroflexion, which developed quite independently of Dravidian languages!
>>
>You are right. That is why it is not correct to say that migration into
>India caused the development of retroflexion.

Retroflexion in Sanskrit may be caused by contact with non-IE languages, or
it may be something that developed in Sanskrit for internal reasons. But
there is far more than retroflexion to indicate a migration.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Archaeology: There is some evidence (see Parpola). Textual: See Witzel's
>>reconstruction of early Indo-Aryan history based on Vedic. Genetic:
>>According to the genetic studies I have read, there is genetic evidence. I
>>believe a book on the subject is forthcoming in India with a contribution by
>>Cavalli-Sforza.
>>
>Witzels reconstruction of Vedic Textual history demands all kinds
>of reminiscences !!.  Let us not get into that again.
>None of the archeologists seem to think that there is any evidence
>of a migration.

Not true. Mallory is an archaeologist, and he doesn't seem to mind the
migration theory at all. The fact is that in the West, very few people in
Academia, whether linguists or archaeologists, disagree with the migration
theory. The ones that reject it, do so because there is little *material*
evidence that a migration took place. But this implies that all migrations
would have to be characterised by material evidence. This, however, is not
necessarily the case. Witzel has already given a couple of examples of this.

>As for the genetic evidence, let us wait for the book.
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Thus the original evidence on which invasion/migration was postulated
>>>doesnt exist !...So - the linguistic evidence  which relied on such
>>>archeological confirmation is also suspect !!.
>>
>>Not true. SOME of the supposed evidence has been discarded. But certainly
>>not all. And new evidence has emerged.
>>
>Please give details, as to what has not been discarded and what the new
>evidence is.

As far as I can see, details have been given several times over, often by
Witzel. E.g.: The idea that India was "invaded" by a military force of
Indo-Aryans that proceeded to destroy the Indus culture, has been rejected.
Apart from that, I refer to the lists presented by Witzel.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Corroborative evidence is always an advantage. But I know of no historical
>>example where a language family has spread over a large part of a continent
>>simply by dint of example. If the Aryan languages didn't come from India,
>>they would have to have entered the subcontinent, and to be carried there by
>>a group of people large enough to make a real impact.
>>
>You make an excellent point here !..Is central asia been capable of producing
>the population needed to go all around Asia and Europe to make such an impact
>as the Indo-Europeans have done. Nomads who generally do not have such surplus
>food cannot be expected to produce the population needed to colonize such a
>large area !!. Is Ukraine capable of producing the population neeeded to go
out and
>populate the whole area form India to Ireland so thorougly as the
>Indo-Europeans have ?

You seem to forget a few details here. The Indo-European expansion took
place over a period of 2-3000 years. Not all Indo-Europeans left Ukraina
directly. Based on genetic evidence, it seems more probable that they would
stay in a place for some centuries, then some of them would move on (a
multi-centre model). Basically the pattern you find among the Greeks and
their colonies in the Mediterranean in ancient times. It is also very
probable that Indo-Europeans mixed with the local populations they came to
dominate, so that the genetic basis of the Indo-Europeans was rather mixed
both in Europe and elsewhere. As for South Asia, the genetic evidence would,
according to Cavalli-Sforza, be compatible with a migration of people from
Anatolia, which would imply that the Indo-Aryans spent some time in that
area, and that Anatolians were part of the "genetic make-up" of the Aryans
that entered Anatolia in the second millenium B.C.E.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I suspect that by the
>>year 1000 BCE, Northern India was a bit like Latin America 300 years ago:
>>Lots of Europeans streaming in, mostly Spanish speaking, and confronting the
>>local populations.
>>
>Wrong!. First you have to prove that whatever area in Central Asia could
produce
>the population needed to overwhelm all of North India and impose its own
culture
>and language on a more advanced civilization.

I do not have to prove anything of the sort. If the Aryans were a mixed lot
of people, linguistically unified, but genetically diverse, and if there was
a substantial component of Anatolians among them, there is no reason to
doubt that there would be enough people to "fill up" parts of India with
Indo-Aryans. Anyway, we have to define what "many" is supposed to mean.
Since we do not have censuses for the period, we can only work on the basis
of models. In other words, we must look at what happened in other places in
the ancient world. And if we do, there is really little reason to doubt a
migration theory.

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>I am afraid you are right. It is a bit sad that you don't want to discuss
>>the methodical problems involved in the study of ancient history. Discussing
>>proofs when we don't even agree upon what would constitute a proof is a bit
>>futile.

>I am willing to discuss the methodical problem - but did not want to
>get into a rhetoric match.

I am afraid that we are in a rhetorical match no matter what we do :-)!

But I really think it is high time that we start to look at what we mean
when we use such words as "proof" and "evidence". What I tried to show with
my statistical story in my last posting, is that even very strong evidence
still does not constitute proof in the mathematical sense of the word. It is
a thread which deserves a follow-up.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lnelson at ACUSD.EDU  Sat Jun 20 20:56:44 1998
From: lnelson at ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 13:56:44 -0700
Subject: Grantha characters
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980619215232.11274e0e@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040096.23782.5154739576698350150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Those interested in Grantha may like to know--or be reminded, since
it was mentioned some time back on this list--of K. Venugopalan's _A
Primer in Grantha Characters_.  This small book was published
privately in 1983 by James H. Nye (bibliographer of the Southern
Asian Collection of the Univ. of Chicago Library).  I don't know to
what extent it is available in libraries.

Lance
------------------------
Lance Nelson
Religious Studies
University of San Diego
lnelson at acusd.edu




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Sat Jun 20 20:07:27 1998
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 14:07:27 -0600
Subject: artisans from different regions
Message-ID: <161227040090.23782.3594719555664399658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Perfect! MUCH thanks to Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD,
Nagamanickam Ganesan,and, by extension, to Dominik Wujastyk and all
participants that contribute critical mass to this listserv's success.
_____________________________________
>A 14:04 19/06/98 EDT,
>vous (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>) avez ?crit :
>
>>In a message dated 98-06-19 05:25:36 EDT, you write:
>>
>><< For several days I've been stumped
>> trying to recall where I read, way back when, about artisans from several
>> specific regions of India, at work for some South Indian king.  I thought
>> it might have been the Cilappatikaram, but couldn't find such a passage in
>> K.N Subramaniyam's _rendering_. >>
>>
>>Since I did not see any response for this query, here is my suggestion. Did
>>you try maNimEkalai? As I am on the road, I cannot give the exact reference.
>>If my memory is right, the lines go something like this.
>>
>>makata vin2aiJarum marATTak kammarum
>>avantik kollarum yavan2at taccarum
>>taNtamiz vin2aiJar tammoTuG kUTi...
>>
>>Regards
>>S. Palaniappan
>>
>
>The lines are almost exactly like this in U.V.S. 's edition (p.212)
>except that it says "tammoTu kUTi ..." at the end ....
>
>The reference is Canto XIX, lines 107-109
>
>There is a "joint translation" by Danielou (he did not do much...)
>and T.V.Gopal Iyer (ISBN 0-8112-1097-9 or ISBN 0-8112-1098-7)
>that reads, on page 81 (description of an audience hall):
>
>"It was the work of the best craftsmen from the cool
> Tamil country, together with sculptors from Magadha,
> skilled in working rare stone, goldsmiths from the Maratha
> country, blacksmiths from Avanti, and Greek (Yavana)
> carpenters. ........."
>
>Regards
>
>-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sat Jun 20 10:15:26 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 14:15:26 +0400
Subject: Iranians in Ancient India
Message-ID: <161227040074.23782.16000142058905029924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jonathan Silk (18 June) wrote:

<Dear Yaroslav ;

<I -- and perhaps others too -- would be very interested in a copy of said
<bibliography, if you would not mind sharing it.

Dear Jonathan, this bibliography is still very small, but grows day by day.
The contributors are: John Brockington, Kaie Mochizuki, Professor Vladimir
Livshits (Iranian Studies) and Jonathan Silk.
The order is chronological.


Wilford F., Capt. Anu-Ga'ngam, or the Gangetic Provinces, and more
        particularly on Magad'ha. - "Asiatic Researches", London, vol. 9,
        1809, pp. 32-82.
F.Buchanan. An Account of the Districts of Bihar and Patna in 1811-1812.
        Vol. I-II. Patna, s.a. Vol.I, p. 99 (Reprint done by BORS in the
        1920-ies).
Bhandarkar R.G. VaiSNavism, Zaivism and Minor Religious Systems. - In:
        Collected Works of Sir R.G.Bhandarkar, vol. IV. Poona, 1929, pp.
        215-221 (first ed. of this classical work - 1914).
Scheftelowitz J. Die Mithra-Religion der Indo-Skythen und ihre Beziehung zum
        Saura- und Mithraskult. - Acta Or., II, 1933, pp.293-333.
Biswas D.K. The Maga Ancestry of Varahamihira. - IHQ, vol. XXV, ? 3,
        Calcutta, 1949, pp. 175-183.
Hazra R.C. Studies in the Upapuranas. I. Calcutta, 1958, pp. 293-333.
Stietencron H. von. Indische Sonnenpriester: Saamba und die Zaakadviipiiya-
        BraahmaNa. Wiesbaden, 1966.
Humbach H. Iranische Sonnenpriester in Indien. - ZDMG, Supplementa  I,
        Teil 3. Wiesbaden, 1969, 882-884.
Srivastava V.S. The Puranic records on the sun-worship. - "PuraaNa", vol. 11,
        1969, pp. 229-272.
Srivastava V.S. Sun-Worship in Ancient India. Allahabad, Indological
        Publications, 1972.
Kawasaki S. A Reference to Maga in the Tibetan Translation of the Tarkajvaalaa.
        - "Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies", Tokyo, 23-2, 1975.
Humbach H. Mithra in India and the hinduized Magi. - Etudes Mithraiques.
        Actes du 2e Congres International. Teheran, 1-8 Sept. 1975.
        ("Acta Iranica", 17). Teheran-Liege, 1978, pp. 229-253.
Panaino A. The year of the Maga Brahmanas. - Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei.
        Atti dei convegni Lincei 127: Convegno internationale sul tema: La
        Persia e l'Asia Centrale da Alessandro al X secolo. Roma, 1996,
        pp. 569-587.

     A final version of this list will accompany the text of a paper on a
related subject which I am working now on and hope to publish in the nearest
future.
        Best regards,
                                Yaroslav Vassilkov
                        New private E-mail address:
                        yavass at YV1041.spb.edu




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 21 00:11:04 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 17:11:04 -0700
Subject: anvaya-vyatireka
Message-ID: <161227040104.23782.515043101163553359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to all those who gave me references on anvaya-vyatireka.
They are very useful ...

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Jun 20 21:39:53 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 17:39:53 -0400
Subject: Tampering with history
In-Reply-To: <bba21631.358bd7a6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227040098.23782.142228167960793631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> With the right combination of socio-political factors, even a small group of
> immigrants can effect major social changes.

I could not agree more. - A good analysis (though not about S. Asia)
is by Ehret:

Chr. Ehret. Language change and the material correlates of language and
ethnic shift. Antiquity 62, 1988, 564-74:

Paraphrase:  ***Such processes have been explained, in general terms
(mainly, extra-South Asian) by Ehret:  He stresses the relative ease with
which both ethnicity and language shift in small societies, due to the
cultural/economic/military choices made by a local population. An
intruding/influencing community bringing new traits may initially be small
and the features it contributes can be fewer in number than the features
of the pre-existing local culture. The newly formed, combined ethnic group
may then initiate a recurrent, expansionist process of ethnic and language
shift. The material record of such shifts is visible in archaeology only
insofar as new prestige equipment/animals (the "status kit", with
intrusive vocabulary!) are concerned, especially if pottery -- normally
culture-specific -- is continued to be made by local specialists of a
class-based society. ***

This description fits, as will be seen, the Indus/Vedic evidence
perfectly.


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From buddh at VORTEX.IS  Sat Jun 20 18:57:48 1998
From: buddh at VORTEX.IS (Buddistafelag Islands)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 18:57:48 +0000
Subject: English retroflexion
In-Reply-To: <v03020901b1b04006c8f7@[130.132.186.85]>
Message-ID: <161227040092.23782.12489980557102346520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jonathan Silk wrote:

>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>
>>Another example is English, where /r/ is pronounced as retroflex [R.]
>>in some varieties (notably American English).
>>
>Can you give an example?  As a native speaker of American English, I am not
>aware of any retroflexion in my speech.
>
>Jonathan SILK


Retroflexion is to be found in the Mid-Western pronunciation of "bird"
(after 1979 represented in the IPA by a turned r with right tail, i.e. a voiced
retroflex approximant). It is also noticeable in the accents of Southern
Ireland, Somerset, and N. Lancashire.

Dhammanando




From thompson at JLC.NET  Sun Jun 21 00:34:59 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 19:34:59 -0500
Subject: English retroflexion
Message-ID: <161227040100.23782.18314181006175426801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In defense of Jonathan Silk:

Isn't it true, though, that native speakers tend not to notice such
phonetic features of their own language, insofar as they operate with a
phonemic system that does not recognize the feature as phonemic? Whereas
non-native speakers [as we all are when it comes to Sanskrit, for example]
are very acutely aware of such things, insofar as they are
language-learners [second language acquisition is a more conscious process
than first language acquisition].

There is also he influence of the writing system, which in the case of
English, of course, does not recognize retroflex phonemes [or phones, for
that matter].

Also, recalling the examples of retroflexion from East Norwegian and
West Swedish which Lars Martin Fosse cited on the list a few months ago, I
wonder how cogent this "minimal pair" is, since it is derived from two
different languages [or dialects]. Can such minimal pairs
[retroflex-dental, or retroflex-alveolar, etc.] be cited *within* the same
dialect? In other words, it is still not clear to me that there are many
languages outside of the Indic linguistic area in which retroflexion is
*phonemic*.

Any help from the list's comparative linguists?

Best wishes,

George Thompson
>>
>
>Incidentally, about everytime someone mentions
>U.S. English as an example for some linguistic
>feature (I noticed that on other lists too)
>some "native speaker of American English" interjects
>that "as a native speaker of American English" he
>is not aware of the feature in question in his
>speech. It seems there is a huge conspiracy to
>misrepresent U.S. English in linguistic textbooks
>so maybe people should stop quoting U.S. examples :-)
>
>I wonder if it's not some kind of paranoia. After all
>it should seem odd that someone could be accurately
>informed on Pugliese, Calabrese, Sardo, Asturian, Swedish,
>Russian, Polish and Mandarin Chinese but get it completely
>wrong when it comes to U.S. English (not exactly an obscure
>exotic language). If someone quoted French as an example
>for a linguistic feature that I didn't immediately
>recognize, I think my first reaction would not be that he is
>necessarily ignorant. I would probably wonder first
>if the feature in question might not be present in a dialect
>with which I wasn't familiar or even if I understood correctly
>what he was talking about.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Sat Jun 20 21:27:27 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 22:27:27 +0100
Subject: English retroflexion
Message-ID: <161227040094.23782.6591586286154626330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>As a native speaker of American English,
>I am not aware of any retroflexion in my speech.

Maybe you don't speak a U.S. dialect that has it.
Generally mid-Western does, yes sir...

Incidentally, about everytime someone mentions
U.S. English as an example for some linguistic
feature (I noticed that on other lists too)
some "native speaker of American English" interjects
that "as a native speaker of American English" he
is not aware of the feature in question in his
speech. It seems there is a huge conspiracy to
misrepresent U.S. English in linguistic textbooks
so maybe people should stop quoting U.S. examples :-)

I wonder if it's not some kind of paranoia. After all
it should seem odd that someone could be accurately
informed on Pugliese, Calabrese, Sardo, Asturian, Swedish,
Russian, Polish and Mandarin Chinese but get it completely
wrong when it comes to U.S. English (not exactly an obscure
exotic language). If someone quoted French as an example
for a linguistic feature that I didn't immediately
recognize, I think my first reaction would not be that he is
necessarily ignorant. I would probably wonder first
if the feature in question might not be present in a dialect
with which I wasn't familiar or even if I understood correctly
what he was talking about.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Sun Jun 21 00:37:01 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 01:37:01 +0100
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040102.23782.8906813658990837314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>If the Aryan languages didn't come from India,
>they would have to have entered the subcontinent, and to be carried there by
>a group of people large enough to make a real impact.

My reading of Palaniappan's (as usual) excellent latest posting is that
"large enough" is so poorly defined as to become almost meaningless.
His example gives a group of 0.15 to 0.7 percent of the total population
(his sample, and note, not historical, figures) having a real cultural
and linguistic impact, to the point, if I understand him correctly,
of making Malayalam a language distinct of Tamil. So how large is "large
enough" for you? What do you have in mind as a figure for the number of
Aryans entering India?

>I suspect that by the
>year 1000 BCE, Northern India was a bit like Latin America 300 years ago:
>Lots of Europeans streaming in, mostly Spanish speaking, and confronting the
>local populations.

You must have a decidedly personal view of what happened in Latin
America. Using one of the numerous European colonial enterprises as
an analogy for how Aryans entered India brings us back to the image
of the conquering Aryan riding in and enslaving the indigenous popu-
lation. And I thought that stuff was history.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Sun Jun 21 01:51:23 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 02:51:23 +0100
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040107.23782.14756673339533817686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(Jumping threads)

George Thompson wrote:

>Also, recalling the examples of retroflexion from East Norwegian and
>West Swedish which Lars Martin Fosse cited on the list a few months ago, I
>wonder how cogent this "minimal pair" is, since it is derived from two
>different languages [or dialects]. Can such minimal pairs
>[retroflex-dental, or retroflex-alveolar, etc.] be cited *within* the same
>dialect? In other words, it is still not clear to me that there are many
>languages outside of the Indic linguistic area in which retroflexion is
>*phonemic*.

Good point. The southern Italian and Sardinian retroflexes seem to be
allophones of /l/ since the posters were saying they only occur as
geminates. I don't know about the Asturian example. There /ll/
becomes a non-geminate retroflex so if a real [d] (non lenited,
etc.) exists in that dialect then maybe, but we'll have to wait
for confirmation from Miguel. In any case the examples adduced so
far also seem to contrast with the Indian example in that they are
not a system involving a whole series of phonemes of the language.
I would imagine such isolated features would, for the sake of economy,
tend to get simplified out of the system (even if it is the case that
they are phonemic). Which brings me to the following: isn't a unique
feature of the Indian linguistic area the stability of retroflexes?
If proto-Dravidian had them, that's something like 5000 years of retro-
flexion. This doesn't seem to be the case in the other examples where
the retroflexes seem to be (relatively) ephemeral intermediate steps
in sequences of phonetic changes. Is that really the case?




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 21 14:40:22 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 10:40:22 -0400
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040125.23782.13623547584460035167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-21 06:40:38 EDT, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes:

<< After all, Tamil was changed, but
 into another Dravidian language. The Nambudiri brahmins did not create a
 whole linguistic family. >>

For a situation similar to the one Fosse is interested in, this may be of some
relevance. In his book, Sanskrit and Prakrit, 1993, p.115-117, Madhav
Deshpande states, "Franklin C. southworth (1971) puts forward the hypothesis
that Marathi developed through the interaction between the northern Indo-Aryan
settlers and local non-Aryan elements. He suggests that Marathi developed from
a creolized form of Prakrit and has its origin in the interaction between the
Upper-class Maharashtrian Prakrit and the Lower-class Maharashtrian Pidgin
Prakrit; this Pidgin itself is thought to have been derived from an
interaction between the Prakrit of the new-comers and the local non-Aryan
languages.
....
S.B. Joshi (1952)  shows that until the rivalry between the Yadava rulers of
Devagiri in the upper Godavari region and the Yadava rulers of Hoysal in
Karnataka became strong, the two languages, i.e., Marathi and Kannada were
used generally in the area now known as Maharashtra. Several OLd Marathi
inscriptions are found in Kannada script, while several Old Kannada
inscriptions are available in Devanagari. Joshi (1952) argues that with the
split between the two seats of Yadava power , there was also a split between
the political identity of Marathi and Kannada. The Yadavas of Devagiri came to
identify themselves with the local language, i.e., Marathi, and gave official
patronage to it."

Probably, the Marathi experts on the list can give more details about this
language change.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 21 14:40:23 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 10:40:23 -0400
Subject: A question about kumbhAr caste
Message-ID: <161227040128.23782.10630246977451964072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have come come across a name "kumbhAr" for a caste in Maharashtra. Can
anybody tell me what their traditional occupation is? Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 21 15:04:13 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 11:04:13 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <v01530508b1b20c3b2e9c@[194.134.29.23]>
Message-ID: <161227040130.23782.14181579514190327147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Australian example has been mentioned. Well, unfortunately, their
retroflexes are not that old either:

A. Capell, The history of Australian languages: A first approach,  in:
S.A. Wurm, Australian linguistic studies, Australian National University
1979,  p. 435, 437 regards them as secondary, derived from  *r+ cons.

(just as some presuppose for parallel developments in IA and Dravidian).


NB could the Drav. scholars on the list please provide some recent
information on this problem?


Bh.Krishnamurti wrote (june 21):

.>>>.. Dravidian had both *_t and *.t basically in
a large no of morphmes. It is true that in sandhi also _t and .t develop
from l+t, and .l+t. <<<

You you please elaborate on this and the preceding question? What do Drav.
specialists think, these days, about the age of this sandhi effect and
about the age of Drav. retroflexes in general?



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 21 15:36:53 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 11:36:53 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980621124545.2167b06e@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040133.23782.735478274478223550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Bh.Krishnamurti wrote:

> The Drav sandhi may have triggered these but such a mysterious convergence
> without contact and large scale bilingualism does not make sense.

I forgot to mention that

(A)  Southworth (1979: 201) has parallel development of *rt > .t  in
Drav. and IA;

see: Lexical evidence for early contacts between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian.
In: M. Deshpande and P.E.  Hook. (eds.). Aryan and Non-Aryan in India. Ann
Arbor : Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies, University of
Michigan 1979, 191-233

(B)  Hamp, Eric P. On the Indo-European Origins of Retroflexes in
Sanskrit. JAOS 116, 1996, 719-723,

wants to find a purely inner-Aryan development, quite similar to Prof.
Krishnamurti's scenario.


On a diff. topic:


> Aryan Migration from India westward. One can go from stage 1  to stage 2 and
> not the other way round. To be explicit, we cannot  derive niz"d- (Indo-Ir.)
> from ni:.da (old Indic).  It is impossible to a reverse a merger of that
> kind by a subsequent sound change. If Aryans went westward, how do we get
> retentions of an older stage in Avestan, and still older ones
> reconstructable to Indo-Ir-Slavonic.

This is of course entirely correct and one of the staple arguments for
INNOVATION in Vedic Sanskrit after the split of Iranian/Vedic ~ Old
Indo_Aryan; similar cases in nom. rAT 'chieftain' < *rAc'-s < IE
*(h)rEg'-s, (Latin rex) etc. ---

Indigenists, I imagine, would counter-argue that (Rg)Vedic innovated here
AFTER the Iranians, IEs had left the Panjab, which puts this emigration
and sound change change (depending on your RV,4000 -8000 BC!) well into
the stone age period, when even the word for dog/wolf were hardly
differentiated and when they had no copper, pottery, not to speak about
horses and chariots....  or at least into the pre-Harappan period, in the
early 3rd mill. when equally, there were no horses, spoked-wheeled
chariots, little copper in N. India. etc. etc.

Something does not fit, it seems...


(NB someone some weeks ago mentioned the Siwalik type horse... That,
unfortunately, belongs entirely to the realm of palaeo-zoology. Long gone
before the Indus period, just as the palaeo-horse in the Anericas...)


 ==========================================================================
MichaelWitzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 21 15:39:28 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 11:39:28 -0400
Subject: Maharashtra potters, warriors, and brahmins
Message-ID: <161227040135.23782.3780797003985278808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In preparing a posting on "Re: Tampering with History", I came across the
following in Madhav Deshpande's Sanskrit and Prakrit, 1993, p.115.

"Karve' (1968) also attempts to show that the Des'astha Rgvedi Brahmanas share
with certain non-Brahmana castes, i.e., certain Maratha and Kumbhar groups,
certain blood-group characteristics. The historical implications of this study
are unclear, and we may simply say that there is a great deal of similarity of
various features across the caste-boundaries."

This is very interesting. If my impression of Marathas being the dominant
land-owning warrior/agricultural elite is correct, then here we seem to have
an amazing corroboration of my theory regarding potters, chieftains, and
brahmins. The Maratha-Kumbhar situation parallels the Tamil case of Vellalas
and Velkovar/Velar.  Moreover, Maharashtra, as we have discussed earlier, was
part of the land of the vELs. It is also interesting that Rgvedi brahmins are
the brahmins in this study. Is there any information about the history of
caste exclusivity of these brahmins? Any geneological information on Des'astha
Rgvedi brahmins will be appreciated.

If Karve's research is accepted as valid by biologists or anthropologists even
today, then this will be a nice confirmation of what I have theorized based on
textual and linguistic evidence.

I will appreciate any more information/updates on this.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun 21 10:39:51 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 12:39:51 +0200
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040111.23782.2221859228716817083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:37 21.06.98 +0100, you wrote:
>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
>>If the Aryan languages didn't come from India,
>>they would have to have entered the subcontinent, and to be carried there by
>>a group of people large enough to make a real impact.

>My reading of Palaniappan's (as usual) excellent latest posting is that
>"large enough" is so poorly defined as to become almost meaningless.
>His example gives a group of 0.15 to 0.7 percent of the total population
>(his sample, and note, not historical, figures) having a real cultural
>and linguistic impact, to the point, if I understand him correctly,
>of making Malayalam a language distinct of Tamil. So how large is "large
>enough" for you? What do you have in mind as a figure for the number of
>Aryans entering India?

As far as a I can see, most shifts in language of the kind we see in India
are due to migrations: Greeks in Greece, Hittites in Anatolia, Italic
speakes in Italy, etc. etc. How to put "large enough" into figures is, of
course, a more difficult matter. But let me point to the fact that the
Muslim invasions in India did not change the linguistic map of India
substantially. You got Urdu, which is a Muslim version of Hindustani, but
basically an Indian language. Persian was widely used for a period by the
educated, but neither Turkish, Persian or any Central Asian language was
established as the everyday language of ordinary people. The same argument
applies to the Huns. But then the military Muslim elites were small. In the
case of the Aryan migrations, we must have had much more than military
elites. There will have been all kinds of people, if you like whole tribes,
men, women and children, pouring in, which means that Vedic/Sanskrit/Prakrit
would be met at all levels of society. This is a slightly different process
from the one described by Palaniappan. After all, Tamil was changed, but
into another Dravidian language. The Nambudiri brahmins did not create a
whole linguistic family. But apart from that, the example is interesting.

But how many? Impossible to say.

>>I suspect that by the
>>year 1000 BCE, Northern India was a bit like Latin America 300 years ago:
>>Lots of Europeans streaming in, mostly Spanish speaking, and confronting the
>>local populations.
>
>You must have a decidedly personal view of what happened in Latin
>America. Using one of the numerous European colonial enterprises as
>an analogy for how Aryans entered India brings us back to the image
>of the conquering Aryan riding in and enslaving the indigenous popu-
>lation. And I thought that stuff was history.

I don't think it is a personal view at all. To the contrary, it is very much
in keeping with the process described by Witzel, where he postulates a
steady trickle of Indo-Aryans into India for several generations. AS for
confrontation, we know that the Indo-Aryans were warlike - the Veda tells us
so - and that they probably would fight both other Indo-Aryans and
non-Aryans. What is outdated, is the "massive war-like invasion theory"
where the Aryans come storming down from the hills flattening the
Indus-culture on their way. But that was certainly not my point. What I was
talking about, was basically the demographic situation, not the quality of
human relationships in North India.

Best regards,

Lars Martin


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no

Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK  Sun Jun 21 11:52:19 1998
From: mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK (Margo Romberg)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 12:52:19 +0100
Subject: Meaning of samadhi
Message-ID: <161227040114.23782.15360102519576216968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to Feuerstein, The Philosophy of Classical Yoga, p. 85,the roots
of the word samadhi are sam (= with, together) + A + dhA (= to put, place)

I have also found another derivation in Swami Muktibodhananda's edition of
the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, p. 421, as sama (= equal) and dhi (=
"reflection", "to perceive").

I am a novice in sanskrit, but I can see that sam and sama are really the
same word, whereas dhA and dhi seem not to be the same.  I would be
grateful if someone with more knowledge if sanskrit could explain the
correct derivation.


Best wishes,
Margo von Romberg




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 21 08:00:20 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 13:00:20 +0500
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040109.23782.17439578955622311542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:51 21/06/98 +0100, you wrote:
   In any case the examples adduced so
>far also seem to contrast with the Indian example in that they are
>not a system involving a whole series of phonemes of the language.
>I would imagine such isolated features would, for the sake of economy,
>tend to get simplified out of the system (even if it is the case that
>they are phonemic). Which brings me to the following: isn't a unique
>feature of the Indian linguistic area the stability of retroflexes?
>If proto-Dravidian had them, that's something like 5000 years of retro-
>flexion. This doesn't seem to be the case in the other examples where
>the retroflexes seem to be (relatively) ephemeral intermediate steps
>in sequences of phonetic changes. Is that really the case?

Dear Indologists;

This is the most crucial argument. Let us make two assumptions:

Assumption 1: A non-inherited phonological feature can develop internally
within a language,  not induced by contact with other languages.

Assumption 2: A non-inherited phonological feature can develop internally
within a language induced by contact with other languages, which genetically
possess such a feature.

By A1, several languages may have developed retroflexion as isolated
instances,like Sweedish, Norwegian, certain Italian dialects, etc., first
allophonically and later perhaps phonemically. They only change the
distribution of certain phonemes marginally but not the whole phonological
system; mid-Western American English retro r in girl, world, word, is also
part of this phenomenon. The case of Australian languages is different,
since they have retroflexes as part of their genetic make-up.

By A2, through prolonged contact a language naturalizes a foreign
phonological feature by integrating it its system. Sanskrit retroflexion is
one such phenomenon. Look at the chronological profile.

Stage 1: Indo-Iranian and Slavonic share a phonetic rule (later called
ruki-rule in Sanskrit), i.e PIE dental s becomes retracted to alveopalatal
postion as s' or s" (like English sh)when preceded by high  vowels, r, .r
and k, all of which carried the feature [+hi]. This is a reconstructable
allophoneic change at an undivided stage.

Stage 2: Both Indic and Iranian perhaps had the same pronunciation, but when
Indic seperated,  Iranian retained s" (s with wedge=sh) but Old Ind speakers
phonetically changed this sound into a retroflex. At this point the
different phonetic representations betwen Iranian and Indic need to be
explained. This could be the impact of initial contact with Dravidian.

Stage 3: Maybe simultaneously with Stage2 was the developemnt of.t, .th, .d
and .dh from internal sandhi of *s"t, *s"th, *z"d, *z"dh; the dental stops
first became retroflexes phonetically after s" which then changed s" to a
retroflex. The articulation of phonemic s" (<*s *s') in Pre-OInd could have
been retroflexed by then. OI v.ri.s.ti, ni:.da, u:.dha are thus accounted
for. These do not account for intervocalic .t and .th which  deveoped later
during the Middle Indic period.

Stage 4: A precedig r or .r changed a dental to retroflex; thus we get
na.ta- from n.rt-, vika.ta- from vik.rta-; we notice this happening already
by the time of As'okan inscriptions. H.Hock says that the retroflex
representation was more in Northwest and East than in West and Central. This
distribution broadly corresponds to the concentration of Dravidian (and
Munda in the East)speaking peoples of that time.

There could be a few  missing links in the above scenario.I am not a
Sanskritist or a IE-ist. Such a transformation of Skt phonological system is
possible only under a contact situtaion. And retroflexion is one  of the so
many other features of Middle Indic both in phonology, morphology and syntax
that look to a Dravidian source. A phonlogical rule shared by both IA and
Drav is the emergence of the favourite syllable type (C)V:C or (C)VCC to the
elimination of *(C)V:CC.

H.Hock's argument that both IA and Drav developed retroflexes on parallel
lines is not defensible, because Dravidian had both *_t and *.t basically in
a large no of morphmes. It is true that in sandhi also _t and .t develop
from l+t, and .l+t. But Middle Indic retroflexes are a result of sandhi
alone and became phenemic later to fill a gap in the phonological system.
The Drav sandhi may have triggered these but such a mysterious convergence
without contact and large scale bilingualism does not make sense.

Aryan Migration from India westward. One can go from stage 1  to stage 2 and
not the other way round. To be explicit, we cannot  derive niz"d- (Indo-Ir.)
from ni:.da (old Indic).  It is impossible to a reverse a merger of that
kind by a subsequent sound change. If Aryans went westward, how do we get
retentions of an older stage in Avestan, and still older ones
reconstructable to Indo-Ir-Slavonic. Professor Witzel, I remember has
mentiond this point,  but I did not follow the thread later.

Regards, Bh.K.


Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun 21 12:42:17 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 14:42:17 +0200
Subject: Tampering with history
Message-ID: <161227040115.23782.9505069935249723278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ooops!

I wrote:

>As far as a I can see, most shifts in language of the kind we see in India
>are due to migrations: Greeks in Greece, Hittites in Anatolia, Italic
>speakes in Italy, etc. etc.


As the discerning reader will have guessed, something disappeared on the way
from the brain to the keyboard.

Please read:

As far as I can see, most shifts in language of the kind we see in India are
*in the Indo-European area* due to migrations: Greeks in Greece, Hittites in
Anatolia, Italic speakers in Italy, etc. etc.

Regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no

Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun 21 12:45:25 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 14:45:25 +0200
Subject: Meaning of samadhi
Message-ID: <161227040117.23782.4710190393143190732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:52 21.06.98 +0100, you wrote:
>According to Feuerstein, The Philosophy of Classical Yoga, p. 85,the roots
>of the word samadhi are sam (= with, together) + A + dhA (= to put, place)
>
>I have also found another derivation in Swami Muktibodhananda's edition of
>the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, p. 421, as sama (= equal) and dhi (=
>"reflection", "to perceive").
>
>I am a novice in sanskrit, but I can see that sam and sama are really the
>same word, whereas dhA and dhi seem not to be the same.  I would be
>grateful if someone with more knowledge if sanskrit could explain the
>correct derivation.

Dhaa and dhi belong together. Historically, this is explained by the
laryngeal theory, according to which dhaa would < dhaH (where H symbolizes a
laryngeal), whereas dhi would < dhH-i, where i is a suffix and the root dhaH
has lost its vowel, a quite common phenomenon in Indo-European languages.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no

Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sun Jun 21 13:13:57 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 15:13:57 +0200
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040121.23782.10563132668986666802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thomson wrote

While it is very useful to have the evidence of retroflexion cited by van
der Geer, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal, and Lars Martin Fosse, -- reminding us
that such phonemes are widespread in human language --, the *particular*
problem of the origin of retroflexion in Vedic remains an open one.

Right. Especially if we consider the fact that the Italic retroflexes are of one
particular kind only (voiced retroflex d, non-geminate. It is written as a geminate,
namely dd, but pronounced as a single consonant). The Indic retroflexes show
much more variation.

Now, either retroflexion arose internally or it arose as a result of
contact between two distinct language families in the Indian sub-continent.
As far as I can tell, there is still no definitive argument in favor of
either one of these alternatives.

Is this something everyone would agree to?

I do. And I have to admit that it sounds a bit too phantastic to me that in two
different language families exactly the same characteristic arises, especially
when they live almost together.

(In Paleontology you often see parallel evolution
of a certain pecularity, but never when the two orders or families live in the
same area. I know this has nothing to do with language, but to me it is part
of the same `logic type of developments'.)

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
The Netherlands
info at ticonsole.nl




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sun Jun 21 13:31:35 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 15:31:35 +0200
Subject: REtroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040119.23782.18088874564323505572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------
Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>The southern Italian and Sardinian retroflexes seem to be
>allophones of /l/ since the posters were saying they only occur as
>geminates.

Well, this is almost true indeed. In Sardinian, the spelling dd for the
geminate .d.d indeed occurs instead of the Latin double ll. For
example, `sa bidda' instead of `ipsa villa' (caseless Latin) for
`the village'. Lone-words from Italian after contact with Genova and
Pisa preserve the Italian spelling and pronunciation, for example,
`bellu' for `bello' (good, good-looking).
But there is also a retroflex voiced d, which is non-geminate, namely after
an n. This retroflex is written either dh, or simply d. Example: `su mundhu'
or `su mundu' for `ipsu mundu' (caseless Latin).

>In any case the examples adduced so
>far also seem to contrast with the Indian example in that they are
>not a system involving a whole series of phonemes of the language.
>I would imagine such isolated features would, for the sake of economy,
>tend to get simplified out of the system (even if it is the case that
>they are phonemic).

There you have a point. Indeed, the Sardinian retroflex system
does not include any other sound than the retroflex d, and, if
you like, also a retroflex n, but only in combination with the retroflex
d (this is of course a samdhi phenomenon).

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
The Netherlands
info at ticonsole.nl




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sun Jun 21 13:53:34 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 15:53:34 +0200
Subject: REtroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040123.23782.440940710698764722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------
Peter Claus wrote

>it seems to me that the almost random and non-systematic (not part of a
>series of similar phonemes) development of retroflexion in a few examples
>within a family could probably be found to have happened with almost any
>sound shift.  To take this as a serious objection to the probability of
>the effects of contact would seem so unreasonable as to disallow any such
>argument in any language family

I never meant to object to the probability of the effects of contact when I
mentioned Sardinian and Pugliese. I only wanted to contribute to the effort
to set the whole problem in a much wider context. And even more, maybe
such examples once will yield arguments in favour. As a matter of fact,
the Old Sardinian language of Carta de Logu of the 13-14th century does
not provide evidence of a retroflex sound. At that time, however, the greater
part of the island had never been under Roman influence, and was considered
barbaric by the influenced regions, or the culturized regions. It was in these
high-standard regions, such as Arborea, that the Cartas came into existence.
However, slowly the whole island became united, and
the language as a result changed. One of those changes is the occurence of
the retroflex dd (as allophone of ll) and d (in nd). Maybe once we will learn much
more about Nuragic (the pre-Roman language of the island), and see that the
retroflex sound came from them. It is only a suggestion.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
The Netherlands
info at ticonsole.nl




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Sun Jun 21 20:03:33 1998
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 16:03:33 -0400
Subject: A question about kumbhAr caste
In-Reply-To: <e43b3042.358d1b58@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227040148.23782.1684324027991581741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The word kumbhAr is Marathi is from Sanskrit kumbhakAra "potter, maker of
pots".  The Marathi word refers to the caste of potters.
        Madhav

On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> I have come come across a name "kumbhAr" for a caste in Maharashtra. Can
> anybody tell me what their traditional occupation is? Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan
>




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 21 22:38:12 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 18:38:12 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040150.23782.6195656721256432317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-21 11:37:48 EDT, witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes:

<< I forgot to mention that

 (A)  Southworth (1979: 201) has parallel development of *rt > .t  in
 Drav. and IA;

 see: Lexical evidence for early contacts between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian.
 In: M. Deshpande and P.E.  Hook. (eds.). Aryan and Non-Aryan in India. Ann
 Arbor : Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies, University of
 Michigan 1979, 191-233>>

The basis for this seems to be David McAlpin's Middle Elamite data, we can
defer  to Dr. Krishnamurti's view on this.

But, in the course of an unrelated research, I discovered some data which
seems to suggest *-r-, *-R- (or *-_t-), and *-l- become retroflexed in north
Dravidian. As far as I know, this has not been studied by Dravidian linguists.
(I am willing to be corrected on this. I have been trying to get some
linguists to review the data, to no avail.) The closest analysis is by Stephen
Hillyer Levitt in "The Alternation of r and l in Dravidian" in Indian
Linguistics, vol. 50, 1989, p. 130-147.

Levitt discusses how *-l- splits into *-l- and *-L- in South and Central
Dravidian and then uses the euphonic combination rules of Tolkappiyam to
explain the basis of Dravidian forms.

Examples for the retroflexion of *-r-/*-R-/*-l- in north Dravidian are as
follows. Here ".r" denotes retroflex r. # denotes item not in DEDR but found
in An Oraon-English Dictionary by A. Grignard or Malto-Hindi-English
Dictionary by B. P. Mahapatra)

DEDR 5400 Ta. vitir to scatter. Kur. bid.ra'AnA to scatter about in disorder,
Malt. biDrare to be dispersed

DEDR 5407 Ta. viracu to crowd together, join, unite. Malt. bir.ge to mix, add
(#Malt. bI.re crowd)

DEDR 1059 Ta. Or to consider, think, regard, etc.  #Kur. o.r'gnA to believe,
think, etc.

DEDR 3962  Ta. pari to separate, cut asunder, etc. Kui p.rApka to split open.
Kur. pa.rakhnA to separate or force asunder the two parts of some object.
Malt. par.ge to split.

DEDR 651 Ta. ural mortar. Ko. oLka.l mortar; oLka.l  kal a stone mortar.
#Malt. lo.ra a stone to grind spices.

(Note the Ko. form is closer to Vedic ulUkhala than ulakkai mentioned often,
which is in fact the pestle rather than mortar. My opinion is ulUkhala
probably stands for *ural(u)kal rather than *ulakkai.)

DEDR 3728 Ta. nURu to crush , reduce to powder. Malt. ni.rg/ni.rga - to
powder, grind.

DEDR 2639 Ta. cIRu to be infuriated, get angry with. #Kur. ci.rArnA  to lose
one's temper, to flare up. #Malt. ci.rAr to be angry.

DEDR 5538 Ta. vEli fence. #Malt. be.ri to build a fence, bE.ra - fence.

DEDR 833 Ta. eli rat, bandicoot. Te. eluka bandicoot. #Malt. e.rge a small
field rat.

The lack of realization of this has resulted in misidentification of the root
form for some Kurukh words such as a.rknA  "to knead with the hands, shampoo
by sqeezing from place to place, etc." with DEDR 63 Ta. aTaGku/aTakku "to
submit/press down" rather than correctly identifying it with DEDR 228 Ta.
arakku to rub with the palm of the hand or sole of the feet etc. A. Grignard
uses the word shampoo for massaging.

There are more items like these. But I hope these will be of some use to those
who want to model retroflexion in Dravidian.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sun Jun 21 17:45:35 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 19:45:35 +0200
Subject: RE Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040145.23782.16430434236412828346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------
Michael Witzel wrote

>IEs had left the Panjab, which puts this emigration
>and sound change change (depending on your RV,4000 -8000 BC!) well into
>the stone age period, when even the word for dog/wolf were hardly
>differentiated and when they had no copper, pottery, not to speak about
>horses and chariots....

Although I am an advocate of the idea of migration INTO India, and not vice-versa,
I cannot agree with this statement. In neolithic times they already had domesticated
dogs, and they made pottery. In addition, they had a lot of artefacts made of fire stone, other
stones like calcareum, and of bones. They were not that barbarious. The same
is true for the Paleolithicum (8.000 BC and older), except maybe for the pottery. No
remains have been found, but that is no definite proof, as fossilization is a
difficult and rare phenomenon. As to horses and cariots you certainly are right.

>(NB someone some weeks ago mentioned the Siwalik type horse... That,
>unfortunately, belongs entirely to the realm of palaeo-zoology. Long gone
>before the Indus period, just as the palaeo-horse in the Anericas...)

To consolidate this observation: the Siwalik period of Pakistan belongs to the
Miocene, which is older than eigth MILLION of years.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
info at ticonsole.nl




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 21 16:57:44 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 21:57:44 +0500
Subject: A question about kumbhAr caste
Message-ID: <161227040137.23782.397307820037310275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'Kumbhar' I think is a potter. The most famous of them is 'Gora Kumbhar'
a devotee of Lord Panduranga Vithal who tested Namdev.

regards,

sarma.

At 10:40 AM 6/21/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I have come come across a name "kumbhAr" for a caste in Maharashtra. Can
>anybody tell me what their traditional occupation is? Thanks in advance.
>
>Regards
>S. Palaniappan
>
>




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 21 17:20:40 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 22:20:40 +0500
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040140.23782.11872641129927242915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:04 21/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>The Australian example has been mentioned. Well, unfortunately, their
>retroflexes are not that old either:
>
>A. Capell, The history of Australian languages: A first approach,  in:
>S.A. Wurm, Australian linguistic studies, Australian National University
>1979,  p. 435, 437 regards them as secondary, derived from  *r+ cons.
>
>(just as some presuppose for parallel developments in IA and Dravidian).
>
>
>NB could the Drav. scholars on the list please provide some recent
>information on this problem?
>
>
>Bh.Krishnamurti wrote (june 21):
>
>.>>>.. Dravidian had both *_t and *.t basically in
>a large no of morphmes. It is true that in sandhi also _t and .t develop
>from l+t, and .l+t. <<<
>
>You you please elaborate on this and the preceding question? What do Drav.
>specialists think, these days, about the age of this sandhi effect and
>about the age of Drav. retroflexes in general?
 >===========================================================================
>Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu

The above stated sandhi is part of Proto-Dravidian morphophonemics (ca. 3000
BC). It does not correspond in time to MI-rt > .t; I have to look up
Southworth's article again for rt > .t in drav. It is not a common dravidian
development. Hans Hock's arguments are mixed up in chronology. I have a mss
of his article presented in Hawaii (you were also there, Prof. Witzel!) but
not its published form.  He quotes me to support his assumption, but it is
totally misplaced. The Australian ex. is not relevant to the problem of
retroflexion in IA through diffusion. Incidentally my scenario does not
support an entirely internal development of retroflexion within IA. The full
transformation of the IA phonological system must have taken about two
millennia of contact with Dravidian and perhaps Munda. A similar change
happened within most of the Dravidian languages in which voicing and
aspiration became distinctive.  Bh.K.
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun 22 02:41:34 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 22:41:34 -0400
Subject: RE Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <01BD9D4D.43DC5E00@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040152.23782.9959600222807631807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You are, of course, right --- but you took my facetious statement too
seriously:

On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, T.I. Console wrote:

> >and sound change change (depending on your RV,4000 -8000 BC!) well into
> >the stone age period, when even the word for dog/wolf were hardly
> >differentiated and when they had no copper, pottery, not to speak about
> >horses and chariots....

> dogs, and they made pottery. In addition, they had a lot of artefacts
> made of fire stone, other stones like calcareum, and of bones. They were
> not that barbarious. The same is true for the Paleolithicum (8.000 BC
> and older), except maybe for the pottery.


I should have been clearer:

(1) 8000 BC barely (!) dogs, no metals, and I think no pottery yet in S,
Asia:  For example no pottery in earliest Mehrgarh (6500 BC)

(As far as I remember, dogs make their entry as domesticated wolves by c.
10,000.)

(2) 4000 BC/PRE-INDUS :  no horses, chariots... little copper..

Bedankt voor de nauwkeurigkeid...
MW.
 ==========================================================================
MichaelWitzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun 22 02:42:42 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 22:42:42 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980621220605.27bfc4c4@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040154.23782.9464563188681575425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the clarification!

On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Bh.Krishnamurti wrote:

> The Australian ex. is not relevant to the problem of
> retroflexion in IA through diffusion.

Of course. I only mentioned it as parallel development (like in
Scandinavian, Sardinian). And, just in case that Aust. once had passed
through India (in the out-of-Africa scheme) and had left a substratum
there... which particular (retr.) scenario obviously does not work now.

> Incidentally my scenario does not
> support an entirely internal development of retroflexion within IA. The full
> transformation of the IA phonological system must have taken about two
> millennia of contact with Dravidian and perhaps Munda.

I believe in a similar scenario but I  am still at the stage of
collecting data/proofs. Hence my questions, to go beyond Zevebil 1970
(Comp.Drav.Phonology)


To provide two somewhat "outrageous" scenarios:

(1) If PDrav. _t, .t etc. are securely PDrav. (as also in Zvelebil/DED)
is there any INTERNAL evidence in PDrav. that they might have developed
(in *pre*-Proto-Drav.) from various Sandhi positions / particular phonetic
surroundings.

I gather, not?


(2) if  (1) does not work, and waht I also had in mind:  has anyone an
opinion on:

 Nostratic **t  > PDrav. *.t,  etc.?

A brief check of various sounds/and groups in : Illich-Svitych, Opyt...,
Moskva 1971-6 follows.

If I understand him correctly, he reconstructs Drav. retroflexes as
conditioned by *intervocalic position* in Nostratic. I am somewhat
hampered now as I have left my Russian Dict. in the office.

I am quoting from Illich's dictionary (nith his no.s) , merely adding DED2
numbers (hopefully correctly), as he only has DED1 page numbers (which I
don't have here)

        (Afro-Asiatic, AfrAs,  for his, older, Hamito_Semitic)
        (NB. Nostr. .t, .k,   etc. are of course NOT retroflexes)

Illich-Sv. no. 225 Drav. ke.t^ //  " padat'/to fall"
**Nostr. .ket^, IE ? keid/k'ad ( O.Isl. hitta,  Skt. zad)
Drav.   DED2 1124  Tam. ki.ta, Tel. ke.dayu

no. 306 Drav. muu.t  // "konchat's/konec/ to end"
Nostr. **muda, AfrAs. md, Alt. muda
Drav. DED2 4922  Tam. mu.ti, Tel. muu.du (Krish. 466)

no . 251 Drav. ne.t/naa.t  // "razyskivat', nakhodit'/ to seek"
**Nostr. ? lewda", Ural. Lewda"
Drav. (1. ) *neet   DED2 3766    Tam.  ne.tu,  Kodagu nee".d
(2) *naa.t  DED2  3637  Tam. naa.tu, Tulu naa.du

no. 205  Drav.  ku.d.d //  "malenkii/ small"
**Nostr. .ku.t^, AfrAs. q(w).t, k(w).t, kt, Kartv. .ku.t, .ko.t
Drav. ku.d.d  DED2 1670  Tam. ku.t.tam, Kui  guu.ta, Kurukh  gu.druu,
Brahui  _ghu.d.du
(As for Drav.  .d.d in mid-word position (inlaut), he presupposes some old
suffix *-H : *-.tH > Drav.  .d.d )

no. 194 Drav. ka.t/ka.t.ta //"ukhodit'/to pass through"  :
Nostr. **.kaLa, IE?, Kartv. .kel, Ural. kad'a, Alt. k'ala Drav. : DED2 no.
1109 'pass through' etc. Tam. ka.ta etc.

no. 204 Drav. ku.t.t //  "tainyi/secret"
Nostr. ** .kuLa,  AfrAs. q(w)l,  Kartv. .kwel, Alt. k'ula
Drav. DED2 1675  Tam. ku.t.tu, Tel gu.t.tu etc.  'secret'
etc.

no. 79 Drav. ka.n.t  // "samec/man, etc.,"
Nostr. **ga"ndu   (a" = a + umlaut) , Drav. ka.n.t, Alt. g"andu"
Drav.  DED2  1173 Tamil ka.n.ta_n, Tel. ga.n.de etc.

no. 301 Drav. mi.n(.t)  // "zhenshchina/samka/ <<promiscuous>> woman"
Nostr, **min'a", AfrAs. m(j)n, Ural. min'a"
Drav.   DED2  4858  Kan. mi.n.di <<lusty female>>, Tulu mi.n.di, -- cf.
Kota mi.n.d.n, Kan. mi.n.d.a; cf.  Brahui min.d; Skt. menaa  from N.
Dravidian.

no. 86  Drav. *ku.n.ta? //  rather doubtful. "serdce/heart"
Nostr. **golH^, Kartv. gul-. Alt. gol(^) -
Georgian gul, Old Uighur qo:l, Mong. gool, AfrAs some Chadian forms
gur/kor..
Drav. (?) DED2 1693  Tam. ku.n.ti, Kan. gu.n.dige, Tel. gu.n.de etc.


(He has many more  cases of _r, .r,  -l, .l)

Any opinion?   Or is that *too early* to ask?


This is important:
If one accepts the Nostraticists' position, then the Dravidians, too,
started to retroflex their tongues only *after* entering the
subcontinent.... as nearly everybody else.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET  Mon Jun 22 05:46:31 1998
From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 22:46:31 -0700
Subject: Meaning of samadhi
In-Reply-To: <199806211245.OAA12067@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227040157.23782.13033709720168788330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------
> At 12:52 21.06.98 +0100, you wrote:
> >According to Feuerstein, The Philosophy of Classical Yoga, p. 85,the roots
> >of the word samadhi are sam (= with, together) + A + dhA (= to put, place)
> >
> >I have also found another derivation in Swami Muktibodhananda's edition of
> >the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, p. 421, as sama (= equal) and dhi (=
> >"reflection", "to perceive").
> >
> >I am a novice in sanskrit, but I can see that sam and sama are really the
> >same word, whereas dhA and dhi seem not to be the same.  I would be
> >grateful if someone with more knowledge if sanskrit could explain the
> >correct derivation.

Swami Muktabodhananda has exploited the similarity between the word sama-dhIH and samAdhi to explain the meaning of the word. There is in fact no etymological relationship between the two words, except perhaps at a great distance, as Dr. Fosse has shown.

Jan




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Jun 22 05:55:09 1998
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 22:55:09 -0700
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980621225418.283fb61a@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040159.23782.14381818794561004226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bh.Krishnamurti wrote:
>Drav retroflexes are as old as PD, maybe 3000 BCE.

Could you elaborate on this, Prof. Krishnamurti, please?
How was the date for Proto-Dravidian arrived at?

Thanks,

Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 22 04:01:48 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 23:01:48 -0500
Subject: English retroflexion (was: Tampering with history)
In-Reply-To: <199806222258.PAA18421@tanga.sje.mentorg.com>
Message-ID: <161227040186.23782.9484948647488548469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Jonathan, while driving down from the Bay area to LA over
>the weekend, I heard some children's rhymes over and over
>again - they seemed to be the only thing that would quieten
>our 20-month old daughter - and, sure, there is tons of
>retroflexion in American English, particularly so in kids
>speech... the song that struck me particularly was
>
>                Five little fishes ....
>                First one said the pool is cool
>                ...
>                Third one sai...
>
>The pronunciation of First and Third are so retroflexed in the
>children's singing that I unconsciously cringe ! ....

OK!

Let me just quote a Japanese proverb (there must be Skt equivalents??)

Todai moto kurashi  =  The area below the lighthouse is dark/the darkness
below the light tower : meaning of course, missing something which has been
right before your eyes (or in this case: ears!)

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 21 18:08:54 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 23:08:54 +0500
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040143.23782.6168262673158697798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:04 21/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>The Australian example has been mentioned. Well, unfortunately, their
>retroflexes are not that old either:
>
>A. Capell, The history of Australian languages: A first approach,  in:
>S.A. Wurm, Australian linguistic studies, Australian National University
>1979,  p. 435, 437 regards them as secondary, derived from  *r+ cons.
>
>(just as some presuppose for parallel developments in IA and Dravidian).
>
>
>NB could the Drav. scholars on the list please provide some recent
>information on this problem?
>
>
>Bh.Krishnamurti wrote (june 21):
>
>.>>>.. Dravidian had both *_t and *.t basically in
>a large no of morphmes. It is true that in sandhi also _t and .t develop
>from l+t, and .l+t. <<<
>
>You you please elaborate on this and the preceding question? What do Drav.
>specialists think, these days, about the age of this sandhi effect and
>about the age of Drav. retroflexes in general?
>
>
>
>===========================================================================
>Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu

I forgot to mention. Drav retroflexes are as old as PD, maybe 3000 BCE. The
PD phonemes are: p t _t .t c k, m n .n ~n, l .l, r .z, w y H (a laryngeal)=
17 consonants; i e a o u (long and short)= 10 vowels. Alveolars and
retroflexes do not occur word initially. This distributional characteristic
is partly reflected in IA also, e.g no initial .n, .l, and .s. Through sound
change, initial  *_t (=*_r) .t, .d, l, *.l, *.z occur word initially in
South Central Drav languages. PD has contrastive minimal pairs for:

Initial: t-
Medial: t : _t : .t
also:   tt : _t_t; .t.t
post-nasal : nt: n_t: .n.t
             ntt: n_t_t: .n.t.t
Finally : no obstruent occurs; only sonorants occur

Alveolar and retroflex stops have the same distribution as the other
obstruents except that they do not occur word-initially.

There is no evidence to derive the alveolars and retroflexes as secondary
phonemes.
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From mcv at WXS.NL  Mon Jun 22 11:18:33 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 11:18:33 +0000
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980621135945.10044A-100000@login3.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040162.23782.12537539146674010770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

>(2) if  (1) does not work, and waht I also had in mind:  has anyone an
>opinion on:
>
> Nostratic **t  > PDrav. *.t,  etc.?
>

Illich-Svitych reconstructs three series of Proto-Nostratic stops,
along the lines of Afro-Asiatic and Georgian *d, *t and *t' (voiced,
unvoiced, "emphatic" or glottalic).  For PN > PDrav., the following
sound laws are postulated:

PN         PDr

*t-        t-
*-t-       -t-, -tt-

*d-        t-
*-d-       -t.-, -t.t.-

*t'-       t-
*-t'-      -t-, -tt-

[Other Proto-Dravidian retroflex sounds are the result of PN *-L-
(voiced lateral fricative), and PN *-l'- and *-n'- (palatal
lateral/nasal, respectively)]

That is to say, the 3 series merged in initial position.  In
intervocalic position, the voiced series gave the retroflex sounds,
the other two merged.

The problem of the three series of stops in Proto-Nostratic is far
from settled.  For instance, Alan Bomhard's reconstructions exchange
the reflexes of the unvoiced and glottalic series as compared to
Illich-Svitych.  Looking only at Dravidian, the system of stops seems
to be governed by two parameters: (1) fortis (TT) vs. lenis (T), and
(2) plain (t) vs. retroflex (t.), giving a total of 4 possible
intervocalic stops (t, tt, t., t.t.).  In the initial position, the
oppositions are neutralized (all merge to t-).  This is indeed
similar to the parameters found in Afro-Asiatic, Georgian and
Indo-European [glottalic version], which are (1) voiced vs. unvoiced,
(2) plain vs. glottalic, and is also comparable to the fortis-lenis
distinctions in Uralic (-t- vs. -tt-).

>?From a strictly phonetic point of view, a development ejective
(glottalized) -> retroflex is rather plausible.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 22 19:27:06 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 12:27:06 -0700
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040173.23782.10078647459160131904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Check

1. The Maratha rajas of Tanjore / K.R. Subramanian ; with a foreword by
P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar.  1st AES reprint.  New Delhi : Asian Educational
Services, 1988.

2. (In Tamil) Tancai Marattiya mannar varalaru : varalarrarayccik
kurippukkalutan / patippaciriyar K. M. Venkataramaiya = History of the
Maratha rulers of Thanjavur. Tanjavur : Tamilp Palkalaik Kalakam, 1987.

3. (In Tamil) Tancai Marattiya mannarkal araciyalum camutaya valkkaiyum
= Administration and social life under the Maratha rulers of Thanjavur /
K. M. Venkataramaiya. Tanjavur : Tamilp Palkalaik Kalakam, 1984.

4. The resistance of Mysore to the Maratha expansion, 1726-1761 / B.
Muddachari. [Mysore] Prasaranga, University of Mysore, 1970.

5. Maratha rule in the Carnatic. Introd. by Surendranath Sen, edited by
C. S. Srinivasachari.  Annamalai University, Chidambaram, 1944.
Series title: India Annamalai University historical series, no. 5.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 22 16:27:51 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 12:27:51 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040171.23782.14617968008125054675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-22 11:13:05 EDT, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes:

<< Only _t and .t are derivable in a few cases of
 inflection and derivation by sandhi. What about l,.l, r,.z which also do not
 occur word-initially? There is no way to derive them through sandhi.  >>

According to Tolkappiyam, n2, R, N, and T could result from conjoining
processes.

l + m > n2+m
l+ (k or c or t) > R+(k or c or R)
L + m > N+m
L + (k or or t) > T+(k or c or T)

So among the retroflexes, L cannot occur as a result of sandhi, only as a
result of split of l as discussed by Levitt.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun 22 07:27:14 1998
From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 12:57:14 +0530
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040160.23782.14491095547738821672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for information on king Shahaji of Tanjore. Has there been any
recent study of of the Maratha kings of South India in general, and on him
in particular?
Any refference would be welcome.
Yigal Bronner.




From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI  Mon Jun 22 12:50:24 1998
From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 14:50:24 +0200
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227040165.23782.13153172788501151813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members
Many thanks to Lars, Jaroslav, Allen Thrasher, John Napier and
others for interesting comments.
As to Schubert's opera Sakuntala, which, according to Napier, is

> An early work, long lost, recently (ie since c1980) rediscovered.

It seems that the opera encyclopedia checked by me was not up-to-
date (though a very recent edition). With the great popularity of
Jones' Sacontala in Germany (both literal translation and dramatic
adaptations in German, laud by such people as Goethe), it is rather
curious that so few were interested in turning it into music.

Best regards,

Klaus Karttunen




From rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA  Mon Jun 22 19:55:50 1998
From: rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA (D.Soneji)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 14:55:50 -0500
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040175.23782.1188806177680727504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yigal Bronner wrote:
>
> I am looking for information on king Shahaji of Tanjore. Has there been any
> recent study of of the Maratha kings of South India in general, and on him
> in particular?
> Any refference would be welcome.
> Yigal Bronner.

I am currently working on a project documenting the liturgical
music/dance traditions of the Tyagarajasvami Temple, Tiruvarur.
Siva-Tyagaraja was Sahaji's ista-devata, and was also the state deity
during his rule.  The following references may be of some use:

Marathi:
Tyagesa Padas of Shahaji Maharaj.  ed. N. Viswanathan.  Thanjavur: TMSSM
Library, 1980.

Telugu in Tamil and Nagari Script:
Keertanas of King Shahaji.  ed. K. Ramachandra Iyer and N. Viswanathan.
Thanjavur: TMSSM Library, 1988.

Pallaki Seva Prabandham (a Telugu composition by Shahaji).  ed. P.
Sambamoorthy.  Madras, 1955.

Pallaki Seva Prabandham.  ed. Gowri Kuppuswami.  Mysore, 1976.

Sanskrit:
Sahendravilasam of Appaya Diksita. ed. V. Raghavan.

English:
Raghavan, V.  "King Shahaji's Contributions to Music and Dance".
Souvenir of the 48th Conference of the Madras Music Academy, 1974-75.

One tradition claims that the Tiyakecar Kuravanci, which was staged
regularly in the Tyagaraja temple, was composed by Sahaji himself.  He
is said to have written the text identifying himself with the heroine,
Rajamohini.  You may want to see the printed edition of the text:
Tiyakecar Kuravanci.  ed. V. Premalata.  Thanjavur: TMSSM Library, 1970.

Regards,
Devesh Soneji




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Mon Jun 22 22:58:37 1998
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 15:58:37 -0700
Subject: English retroflexion (was: Tampering with history)
In-Reply-To: <v03020901b1b04006c8f7@[130.132.186.85]>
Message-ID: <161227040178.23782.16421928632880281893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>
> >Another example is English, where /r/ is pronounced as retroflex [R.]
> >in some varieties (notably American English).
> >
> Can you give an example?  As a native speaker of American English, I am not
> aware of any retroflexion in my speech.
>
> Jonathan SILK
>
> ****Note New Email Address***:
>
> jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Jonathan, while driving down from the Bay area to LA over
the weekend, I heard some children's rhymes over and over
again - they seemed to be the only thing that would quieten
our 20-month old daughter - and, sure, there is tons of
retroflexion in American English, particularly so in kids
speech... the song that struck me particularly was

                Five little fishes ....
                First one said the pool is cool
                ...
                Third one sai...

The pronunciation of First and Third are so retroflexed in the
children's singing that I unconsciously cringe !  Never mind
that my mother tongue is Tamil,  which has the unique retroflex
right in the name of the language... we would be better off
transliterating it as Tamir for Americans... that way, at least
Americans would pronounce it right... since most other Indians/
S.Indians can't even see what this uniquely Tamil-Malayalam
sound is all about ;-)

Regards,
-Srini.




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Tue Jun 23 01:20:36 1998
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 18:20:36 -0700
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02b1b3e8511ea8@[202.54.35.193]>
Message-ID: <161227040184.23782.3936262431875043078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> I am looking for information on king Shahaji of Tanjore. Has there been any
> recent study of of the Maratha kings of South India in general, and on him
> in particular?
> Any refference would be welcome.
> Yigal Bronner.
>

Vidyasankar and Devesh have already provided some references...
in addition,  please take a look at the following books by
Prof.S.Seetha, Retired Head of Dept of Music, Madras University.

        -  Tanjore as a seat of music, during the 17th, 18th, and
        19th centuries.  University of Madras. 1981

        -  Raga Lakshanamu.  Brhaddhvani, Madras. 1990.

The second book is a Telugu treatise on music authored/attributed
to Shahaji Maharaja.  His descendant's (Tulaja I) Sanskrit treatise
on music Samgita SaaraamRta is very much indebted to his ancestor's
Telugu work.

-Srini.




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun 22 15:38:35 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 20:38:35 +0500
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040167.23782.531013818621360508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Beatrice Reusch: It is an iformed guess. I am afraid I cannot produce
definite proof.
        A Russian scholar(Andronov), and two Indian scholars( Kameswari,
Namboodiri) used lexicostatistics and arrived at this date approximately.
Zvelebil has a chapter (Ch.3: The diachronic view) in his book Dravidian
Linguistics: An Introduction (Pondicherry, 1990). Convergence of different
kinds of evidence. For instance, Tamil Brahmi goes to early BCE and all
South and South Central Drav languages had independent growth by then. I
take their common stage to be 10th cent. BCE to account for a number of
innovations that occured in both the subgroups. Nobody has disputed RV
borrowings from Drav (about a dozen lexical items) including khala-
'threshing floor', bala- 'strength', mayu:ra- 'peacock', ka:.na- 'a blind
person', etc., besides some grammatical phenomena like -tva:, iti, etc.
Maybe you can put these around 1500 BC? (Because what is disputed is the
date of RV!). The Indus script had no prefixes and therefore the first
possibility was that was PD, ca. 2500-3000 BCE. We are still looking for
proof. Please note that there is no speech continuum between one Drav lg and
another as we have between Romance lgs., or between Germanic lgs. even after
2000 or so years of evolution.Thanks for making me think about dating
seriously, Bh.K.


At 22:55 21/06/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Bh.Krishnamurti wrote:
>>Drav retroflexes are as old as PD, maybe 3000 BCE.
>
>Could you elaborate on this, Prof. Krishnamurti, please?
>How was the date for Proto-Dravidian arrived at?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Beatrice Reusch
>University of California, Berkeley
>
>
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun 22 15:38:41 1998
From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 20:38:41 +0500
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040169.23782.18314256299741786079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 22:42 21/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Thanks for the clarification!
 >I believe in a similar scenario but I  am still at the stage of
>collecting data/proofs. Hence my questions, to go beyond Zevebil 1970
>(Comp.Drav.Phonology)

>To provide two somewhat "outrageous" scenarios:
>
>(1) If PDrav. _t, .t etc. are securely PDrav. (as also in Zvelebil/DED)
>is there any INTERNAL evidence in PDrav. that they might have developed
>(in *pre*-Proto-Drav.) from various Sandhi positions / particular phonetic
>surroundings.

>I gather, not?

No; Hans Hock also asked me if we could somehow derive  all retroflexes and
alveolars [which do not occur word-initially= the basis of the hunch] from
sandhi of some liquid+dental. Only _t and .t are derivable in a few cases of
inflection and derivation by sandhi. What about l,.l, r,.z which also do not
occur word-initially? There is no way to derive them through sandhi. So
non-occurrence word-initially is only a phonetic constraint (the tongue-tip
can be raised for coronal articulation only after a syllabic segment) and
not reminiscent of a historical event.

My Hawaii paper, Patterns of sound change in Dravidian, is published in The
Yearbook of South Asian Languagea and Linguistics 1998 (ed. Rajendra Singh),
Sage, 1998. I have discussed some PD morphophonemics in it.

>(2) if  (1) does not work, and waht I also had in mind:  has anyone an
>opinion on:
>
> Nostratic **t  > PDrav. *.t,  etc.?
>
>A brief check of various sounds/and groups in : Illich-Svitych, Opyt...,
>Moskva 1971-6 follows.
>
>If I understand him correctly, he reconstructs Drav. retroflexes as
>conditioned by *intervocalic position* in Nostratic. I am somewhat
>hampered now as I have left my Russian Dict. in the office.
>
>I am quoting from Illich's dictionary (nith his no.s) , merely adding DED2
>numbers (hopefully correctly), as he only has DED1 page numbers (which I
>don't have here)
>
>        (Afro-Asiatic, AfrAs,  for his, older, Hamito_Semitic)
>        (NB. Nostr. .t, .k,   etc. are of course NOT retroflexes)
>
>Illich-Sv. no. 225 Drav. ke.t^ //  " padat'/to fall"
>**Nostr. .ket^, IE ? keid/k'ad ( O.Isl. hitta,  Skt. zad)
>Drav.   DED2 1124  Tam. ki.ta, Tel. ke.dayu
>
>no. 306 Drav. muu.t  // "konchat's/konec/ to end"
>Nostr. **muda, AfrAs. md, Alt. muda
>Drav. DED2 4922  Tam. mu.ti, Tel. muu.du (Krish. 466)
>
>no . 251 Drav. ne.t/naa.t  // "razyskivat', nakhodit'/ to seek"
>**Nostr. ? lewda", Ural. Lewda"
>Drav. (1. ) *neet   DED2 3766    Tam.  ne.tu,  Kodagu nee".d
>(2) *naa.t  DED2  3637  Tam. naa.tu, Tulu naa.du
>
>no. 205  Drav.  ku.d.d //  "malenkii/ small"
>**Nostr. .ku.t^, AfrAs. q(w).t, k(w).t, kt, Kartv. .ku.t, .ko.t
>Drav. ku.d.d  DED2 1670  Tam. ku.t.tam, Kui  guu.ta, Kurukh  gu.druu,
>Brahui  _ghu.d.du
>(As for Drav.  .d.d in mid-word position (inlaut), he presupposes some old
>suffix *-H : *-.tH > Drav.  .d.d )
>
>no. 194 Drav. ka.t/ka.t.ta //"ukhodit'/to pass through"  :
>Nostr. **.kaLa, IE?, Kartv. .kel, Ural. kad'a, Alt. k'ala Drav. : DED2 no.
>1109 'pass through' etc. Tam. ka.ta etc.
>
>no. 204 Drav. ku.t.t //  "tainyi/secret"
>Nostr. ** .kuLa,  AfrAs. q(w)l,  Kartv. .kwel, Alt. k'ula
>Drav. DED2 1675  Tam. ku.t.tu, Tel gu.t.tu etc.  'secret'
>etc.
>
>no. 79 Drav. ka.n.t  // "samec/man, etc.,"
>Nostr. **ga"ndu   (a" = a + umlaut) , Drav. ka.n.t, Alt. g"andu"
>Drav.  DED2  1173 Tamil ka.n.ta_n, Tel. ga.n.de etc.
>
>no. 301 Drav. mi.n(.t)  // "zhenshchina/samka/ <<promiscuous>> woman"
>Nostr, **min'a", AfrAs. m(j)n, Ural. min'a"
>Drav.   DED2  4858  Kan. mi.n.di <<lusty female>>, Tulu mi.n.di, -- cf.
>Kota mi.n.d.n, Kan. mi.n.d.a; cf.  Brahui min.d; Skt. menaa  from N.
>Dravidian.
>
>no. 86  Drav. *ku.n.ta? //  rather doubtful. "serdce/heart"
>Nostr. **golH^, Kartv. gul-. Alt. gol(^) -
>Georgian gul, Old Uighur qo:l, Mong. gool, AfrAs some Chadian forms
>gur/kor..
>Drav. (?) DED2 1693  Tam. ku.n.ti, Kan. gu.n.dige, Tel. gu.n.de etc.
>
>
>(He has many more  cases of _r, .r,  -l, .l)
>
>Any opinion?   Or is that *too early* to ask?
>
>
>This is important:
>If one accepts the Nostraticists' position, then the Dravidians, too,
>started to retroflex their tongues only *after* entering the
>subcontinent.... as nearly everybody else.
>
>===========================================================================
>Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
>
> I am not a Nostraticist. I looked at some basic vocabulary, like numerals,
personal pronouns and kinship terms and did not find much support for a long
range genetic relationship. I believe that the time tested comparative
method will fail in establishing long range genetic relaionships, because
aspects of  diffusion from other families in contact cannot be accounted
for, as different from gentic phenomena. I have just started reading Bob
Dixn's new book The rise and fall of languages. He has some interesting
insights on this question. Bh.K.
Bh.Krishnamurti
H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati"
Street 9, Tarnaka
Hyderabad 500017
Telephone:40-7019665




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun 23 02:21:00 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 21:21:00 -0500
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040182.23782.14438760631267831909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to the recent post of Bh.Krishnamurti:

[snip]

>        Nobody has disputed RV
>borrowings from Drav (about a dozen lexical items) including khala-
>'threshing floor', bala- 'strength', mayu:ra- 'peacock', ka:.na- 'a blind
>person', etc., besides some grammatical phenomena like -tva:, iti, etc.

As a matter of fact, in his recent overview in the Erdosy volume already
cited [see pp.38f.], Hock refuses to accept mayUra and kANa as borrowings
[he also presents a fairly extensive discussion of budbuda, which he
likewise questions as a borrowing from Dravidian].

I am a little puzzled by his strategy here, which seems a little perverse.
His basic argument is that since every one of the early IA derivations from
Dravidian has been contested, these words cannot be relied upon as evidence
of "subversive" influence of Dravidian on early IA [I'm also struck by his
far from idiomatic use of this term "subversive"]. In any case, using this
line of reasoning, someone like Subrahmanya could argue that there is no
"reliable" evidence whatsoever of ANY influence on early IA from ANYWHERE,
except perhaps for the Sarasvati/Indus Valley culture, which of course we
know nothing about, linguistically....

Hock also seems inconsistent when he insists upon the relevance of
retroflexion in Norwegian and Sicilian, etc.[where retroflexion seems
allophonic rather than structural, as Jacob Baltuch has observed ], whereas
he balks at the relevance of Dravidian retroflexion with regard to IA
retroflexion, because Dravidian makes a three-fold distinction betweem
dental-alveolar-retroflex, in contrast to the IA two-fold distinction
between dental-retroflex. Could someone explain to me why a proto-Dravidian
language with such a three-fold distinction COULD NOT HAVE INFLUENCED early
IA in such a way as to induce a dental-retroflex distinction?

There is no question that, as Krishnamurti suggests, "we are still looking for
>proof." But that does not mean that anything goes. We must apply our
>principles in a principled way. I'm not sure that Hock has done so in this
>case.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Mon Jun 22 22:08:49 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 23:08:49 +0100
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040176.23782.4324166329376765233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> From a strictly phonetic point of view, a development ejective
> (glottalized) -> retroflex is rather plausible.

Why?


(Btw accoustically do glottalized and/or retroflexes have lower
spectra than the corresponding non-glottalized and say dentals?
Just wondering...)




From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU  Tue Jun 23 04:26:33 1998
From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart R. Sarbacker)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 23:26:33 -0500
Subject: Samadhi
Message-ID: <161227040192.23782.15488505499758363732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In _Vision of the Vedic Poets_, Jan Gonda links the Sanskrit dhi with
dhyaana (and I believe with Samaadhi as well), with particular reference to
Patanjali's Yoga and also with Buddhist developments.  I've found his
excursis on this relationship quite useful and I would highly recommend
checking it out.  I'm not sure what the current attitude in Indological
circles is towards his text at the moment, though.


All the Best,


Stuart Sarbacker
University of Wisconsin




From mcv at WXS.NL  Mon Jun 22 23:38:38 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 23:38:38 +0000
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b1b474712d3e@[194.134.29.32]>
Message-ID: <161227040180.23782.10888980354750409066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE> wrote:

>> From a strictly phonetic point of view, a development ejective
>> (glottalized) -> retroflex is rather plausible.
>
>Why?

My impression is that /t./ and /t'/ are rather similar in tehir
acoustic effect (articulation is very different).  I'm afraid I can't
confirm that with an authoritative quote.

>(Btw accoustically do glottalized and/or retroflexes have lower
>spectra than the corresponding non-glottalized and say dentals?
>Just wondering...)

According to Ladefoged ("A Course in Phonetics"), retroflex sounds
show a "general lowering of the third and fourth formants".
Unfortunately, no acoustic correlates are given for ejectives.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun 23 05:10:54 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 10:10:54 +0500
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040189.23782.12692850426271968250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:57 PM 6/22/98 +0530, you wrote:
>I am looking for information on king Shahaji of Tanjore. Has there been any
>recent study of of the Maratha kings of South India in general, and on him
>in particular?
>Any refference would be welcome.
>Yigal Bronner.
>
>
"cakci man2n2arin2 kIrttanaikaL" (Keerttanas of king Shahaji)
Edited by K.Ramachandra Iyer (Notation) and N.visvanathan
Tanjore Sarasvati Mahal Series No. 262, 1988
(Telugu,Sanskrit and MaraThi Text in Tamil and Devanagari scripts)

There is also a Sanskrit lexicon by Shahaji, published by Baroda Sanskrit
series.

regards,

sarma.




From mcv at WXS.NL  Tue Jun 23 10:12:28 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 10:12:28 +0000
Subject: Retroflex sounds
In-Reply-To: <v01530508b1b20c3b2e9c@[194.134.29.23]>
Message-ID: <161227040208.23782.16844244951252818810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE> wrote:

>The southern Italian and Sardinian retroflexes seem to be
>allophones of /l/ since the posters were saying they only occur as
>geminates. I don't know about the Asturian example. There /ll/
>becomes a non-geminate retroflex so if a real [d] (non lenited,
>etc.) exists in that dialect then maybe, but we'll have to wait
>for confirmation from Miguel.

Confirmed.  Asturian /d/ behaves like Spanish /d/: it's the stop [d]
in initial position, and in the combination <nd>, a light fricative
or continuant [D] elsewhere.

The Asturian retroflex (found only two separate enclaves, the
villages of Sistierna and Aller [Felechosa, Casomera]) has nothing to
do with gemination per se.  It's a development of palatal /L/, which
in Asturian can come from Latin -ll- (as in Spanish) or from Latin
initial l- (as in Catalan).  For instance (Sistierna dialect):
/d.una/ "moon" (Spa. luna, Cat. lluna), gad.inas "chickens" (Spa.
gallinas).  In Aller, the result is not [d.] but a retroflex
affricate [t.s.] or [s.d.] (ts.una, gats.ina etc.).  The development
/L/ > /tS/ found in a wider area of Asturias, as well as in Gascon
and Pyrinean Aragonese is also thought to have gone through a stage
with retroflex [d.] or [t.] by some authorities.

But enough about Romance...

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun 23 08:14:44 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 10:14:44 +0200
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227040194.23782.6296867484153224792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 14:50 22.06.98 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear members
>Many thanks to Lars, Jaroslav, Allen Thrasher, John Napier and
>others for interesting comments.

Here is a bit more info on Holst's "Sanskrit" works.

Savitri is available from Hyperion, CD CDA66099. The CD contains Savitri and
a work called Dream-City, a song cycle arranged and orchestrated by Colin
Mathews.

Choral Hymns from the Rig Veda, group 3 op 26 no. 3, is available from
Hyperion, CD CDA66175 together with works by Benjamin Britten and Arthur Bliss.

Cheers,

Lars Martin


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no

Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun 23 08:20:05 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 10:20:05 +0200
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040197.23782.5392341756948965487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Hock also seems inconsistent when he insists upon the relevance of
>retroflexion in Norwegian and Sicilian, etc.[where retroflexion seems
>allophonic rather than structural, as Jacob Baltuch has observed ],

At the risk of repeating myself (I am not sure if I have commented upon this
before): retroflexion in spoken East Norwegian is not allophonic.


Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no

Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun 23 09:39:15 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 10:39:15 +0100
Subject: rise and fall of languages
Message-ID: <161227040199.23782.3976553171507939919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 "Bh.Krishnamurti" wrote

> I have just started reading Bob
> Dixon's new book The rise and fall of languages. He has some interesting
> insights on this question.

So far I have not yet seen R.M.W. Dixon's recent book (Cambridge, 1997), I am
trying to get hold of a copy. But I understood he tries to apply insights of
'New Biology' to linguistics. The resulting model apparently gives a well-
defined place both to creative periods in which many new languages emerge, and
periods of equilibrium in which linguistic areas are formed by diffusion of
features.

This seems all very relevant to South Asia as a millennia old linguistic area
(Dixon focused on Australian languages), as well as to the reconstruction of
pre-Vedic, proto-Dravidian, proto-Munda etc. I will hence be interested in Bh.
Krishnamurti's learned opinion on the book, and sollicit also comments from
other Indological readers.

JH




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jun 23 09:44:15 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 10:44:15 +0100
Subject: Black Death
In-Reply-To: <01BD98FF.460C1000@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040204.23782.12409149612309582534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> ... books on (history) of VETERINARIAN medicine?
>
> Sandra van der Geer

There's almost nothing.  Some texts on Asvasastra and Hastyayurveda have
been printed, for example

_Gaja Sastram of Palakapya Muni with extracts from other works and
coloured illustrations_ ed. & tr. K. S. Subrahmanya Sastri and S. Gopalan
(Tanjore, TMSSM Library, 1958).

_Asvasastram by Nakula with coloured illustrations_, ed. & tr. by S.
Gopalan, V. Svaminatha Atreya and K. S. Subramanya Sastri (Tanjore, TMSSM
Library, 1952).

See also

F. Edgerton, _The elephant-lore of the Hindus; the elephant-sport
(Matanga-lila) of Nilakantha)_ (Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass, 1985).
Reprint of 1931 ed.

An important recent study is

G. Jan Meulenbeld, "Conformities and divergences of basic Ayurvedic
concepts in veterinary texts" in _Journal of the European Ayurvedic
Society_ 1 (1990): 1-6.

GJM's article has a useful bibliography of relevant texts.

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.

First Rule of History:
  History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jun 23 09:49:01 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 10:49:01 +0100
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02b1b3e8511ea8@[202.54.35.193]>
Message-ID: <161227040206.23782.18117217454971828200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Yigal Bronner wrote:

> I am looking for information on king Shahaji of Tanjore. Has there been any
> recent study of of the Maratha kings of South India in general, and on him
> in particular?

There's quite a bit of info on this dynasty in the appendix to
Julia Leslie's _The Perfect Wife_ (Delhi, Oxford UP, 1989).

Dominik




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jun 23 17:25:36 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 13:25:36 -0400
Subject: Turangalila -Reply
Message-ID: <161227040215.23782.8243860386084323042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dermot Killingley asked why Messiaen named his symphony turaNgalIlA,
horse-play.  I don't know, but one meaning turaNgalIlA has is the "knight's
move" in chess, or "the knight's tour" in chess problems.  It is also used for
the order in which a particular mantra arranged on a yantra of 8 X 8, like a
chess board, ought to have the syllables read, in Damodara's
YantracintAmaNi.  Does it have the same meaning of a move of one square
in one direction and 2 in another in CitrakAvya?  I preparing to leave for a
week at Nag's Head with my family Friday night and am too busy with
things associated with the American Library Association convention here
in Washington to check.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From omkar at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun 23 08:52:37 1998
From: omkar at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Swami Vishvarupananda)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 14:22:37 +0530
Subject: Laghu Nayasa
Message-ID: <161227040201.23782.11360275801977246232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Harih Om,

Could somebody tell me where Laghu Nyaasa:
a_gnir me' vaa_ci shR^i_taH | vaaghR^i_da'ye | ....
And also, where an English translation may be available.

Thanks and Om,
Swami Vishvarupananda




From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK  Tue Jun 23 15:35:59 1998
From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 16:35:59 +0100
Subject: Turangalila
In-Reply-To: <s587c37d.079@wpmail.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227040210.23782.2530666483032074422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Alan Thrasher's message prompts me to ask if anyone knows why Messiaen
called his symphony 'horse-play'. Could it be a mistake for taraGga-lIlA
'wave-play'?

Dr Dermot Killingley
Dept of Religious Studies
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
Phone 0191 222 6730    Fax 0191 222 5185

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Allen W Thrasher wrote:

> There is also Olivier Messiaen's Turanga-lila Symphony.
>
> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
> Senior Reference Librarian
> Southern Asia Section
> Asian Division
> Library of Congress
> 101 Independence Ave., S.E.
> Washington, DC 20540-4714
> tel. (202) 707-3732
> fax (202) 707-1724
> email: athr at loc.gov
>
> The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.
>




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 23 21:52:08 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 17:52:08 -0400
Subject: method of dating RV, III
Message-ID: <161227040225.23782.17401499756514768655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-11 07:34:02 EDT, JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL writes:

<< Further remarks on Michael Witzel, who wrote on Wed, 10 Jun 1998:

 >> Quite another thing which must have been around but was not referred to
 >> is the iSTakA or brick (or is there another RV-ic word referring to
 >> it?).

 >But there is alrady Iranian (Avest.) is'tiia, from the same root...
 >Apparently they knew of bricks, maybe learned it from the (pre-)BMAC
 >cultures, before c.  2000 BC. at the northern fringes of Iran/Afghanistan.
 >Note the two separate formations (perhaps, also cf. Tocharian izcem).

 In any case, the Rgvedic poets did - apparently - not refer to a brick,
neither
 one for daily use, nor one for ritual purposes. Only the latter 'omission'
 could perhaps be explained with reference to their association with the Hotr-
 function.
 As for word-history and etymology, is'tiia occurs only in young Avestan
 (according to both Bartholomae and Mayrhofer) and in "altpersisch" (according
 to Mayrhofer), i.e. in the cuneiform inscriptions from ca. 520 B.C. onwards.
 Ritualistic, intra-vedic etymology of the Yajurvedic iSTikA/iSTakA seems
 perspicuous, but Iranian terms are difficult to fit in, point to an older
form
 with a different but problematic etymology. Primacy of ritualistic term of
the
 Yajurveda is of course also problematic: why would the Iranians borrow it in
a
 time when they must already have been acquainted with the object?

 >> But an iSTakA having technical
 >> links with the Harappan culture appears soon after the RV in the YVic
 >> texts and was used in the Agnicayana (cf. Romila Thapar in Staal's Agni,
 >> vol. 2).

 >They did not take the closely related Iranian evidence into account...
 >Not everything must come from Harappa... (Staal now has a paper, forthc.,
 >which takes note of the Avestan evidence).

 Interesting. But, whatever the Iranian connections, the Harappan ruins were
 still around (perhaps directly referred to by the RV poets), and presumably
 also some local people who had not yet forgotten the technique of burning
 bricks (cf. the acculturation), though they apparently could not get
organized
 any more to build monumental constructions like in the Sarasvati-Indus civ.

 JH >>

If my understanding of Jan Houben's position is correct, there does not seem
to be a consenus on the etymology of iSTaka. I would appreciate if the experts
discuss what relationship, if any, the word for brick has to do with the word
iSTi and its etymology.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 23 21:58:58 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 17:58:58 -0400
Subject: A question about kumbhAr caste
Message-ID: <161227040229.23782.2523672343831665355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to all those who responded to this query. Now if I can ask for another
favor. Does anybody know the etymology for a Maratha caste by the name kunbi?
Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan

In a message dated 98-06-21 16:04:27 EDT, mmdesh at UMICH.EDU writes:

<<
 The word kumbhAr is Marathi is from Sanskrit kumbhakAra "potter, maker of
 pots".  The Marathi word refers to the caste of potters.
         Madhav >>




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 23 22:00:36 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 18:00:36 -0400
Subject: A question about kumbhAr caste
Message-ID: <161227040232.23782.1644042763400863061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-21 12:30:06 EDT, narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes:

<< The most famous of them is 'Gora Kumbhar'
 a devotee of Lord Panduranga Vithal who tested Namdev. >>

I would appreciate getting more details of this story or at least a reference.
Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun 23 23:27:58 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 19:27:58 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040237.23782.13021414516961832796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

No, I'm your pUrvapakSa, Lars Martin, and I accept the blame for
sloppiness, on both counts: re the Norwegian and the so-called "Sicilian"
examples. Jacob, on the other hand, deserves the credit for making the
point that really matters: re "isolated feature"/"systemic feature".

What I meant to say is that in his article Hock seemed to me to be
selective in his use of these examples of retroflexion. Perhaps the
question of their relevance can be clarified: is retroflexion in these
instances [as well as that of retroflexion in American English] a
relatively isolated feature or a relatively systemic one?

If they are relatively isolated, as retroflexion in Amer. English seems to
be, then their relevance to an examination of the Indic linguistic area
seems limited [i.e., they admittedly demonstrate that retroflexion is
fairly widespread as a phonological process, but they do not clarify the
particular process whereby a series of retroflexes arises in Vedic].

On the other hand, Hock insists upon the possibility that retroflexion in
IA and in Dravidian has developed independently of each other. Of course.
Besides pointing out the fact that Dravidian has a triple contrast whereas
IA has only a dental / retroflex contrast, he also points out other
differences. Dravidian permits word-final retroflex (and alveolar)
sonorants, whereas early IA doesn't, except in the case of onomatopoeic
*bhAN*. IA has retroflex sibillants, whereas Dravidian lacks them. Etc.

Now I'm certainly not competent to explain away all of these difficulties.
I would hope that B. Krishnamurti and others might step in and illuminate
these problems. It simply appears to me that Hock is being too stringent
with his requirements of proof in this instance, just as he seems to be in
his treatment of lexical borrowings in early IA from Dravidian. I will
repeat my earlier appeal to the list: "Could someone explain to me why a
proto-Dravidian
language with such a three-fold distinction COULD NOT HAVE INFLUENCED early
IA in such a way as to induce a dental-retroflex distinction?"

Now to the lexical evidence. As I mentioned in my last post, Hock does
point out the real difficulties of deriving Skt. mayUra, budbuda,and kANa
from Drav. Fair enough. But to say that there is a "dearth" of evidence of
lexical borrowing in the RV in the face of Kuiper's efforts to show exactly
the opposite in *Aryans in the RV* is a bit startling to me. Here again, I
think that Hock is being too stringent.

Let me close by expressing my admiration for Hock's work on this
question,as on so many others. His recently published article in the volume
edited by Witzel [*Inside the Texts - Beyond the Texts* in the HOS Opera
Minora Series], called "Chronology or Genre? Problems in Vedic syntax", is
another example of his cautionary wisdom. Needless to say, I have learned a
great deal from studying his *Principles of Historical Linguistics*, and
look forward to learning more.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Tue Jun 23 18:49:25 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 20:49:25 +0200
Subject: REtroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040217.23782.4007173771507087898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote

>Hock also seems inconsistent when he insists upon the relevance of
>retroflexion in Norwegian and Sicilian, etc.[where retroflexion seems
>allophonic rather than structural, as Jacob Baltuch has observed ],

Why do people always mix up the islands Sardinia and Sicily? Because of the
greater television impact of the latter? Sardinian (sa limba sarda) and Pugliese
were the retroflexe candidates.

>At the risk of repeating myself (I am not sure if I have commented upon this
>before): retroflexion in spoken East Norwegian is not allophonic.

And as regards Sardinian, maybe the double .d.d is indeed allophonic, but
the .n.dh combination is not.

Sandra van der Geer

Dr. A.A.E. van der Geer
Boerhaavelaan 98
2334 ET Leiden
The Netherlands
e-mail info at ticonsole.nl




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Tue Jun 23 18:58:18 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 20:58:18 +0200
Subject: Black Death
Message-ID: <161227040219.23782.18046394380224160531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik Wujastyk answered:

> books on (history) of VETERINARIAN medicine
>
>There's almost nothing.  Some texts on Asvasastra and Hastyayurveda have
>been printed, for example
>
>_Gaja Sastram of Palakapya Muni
>_Asvasastram by Nakula
>See also
>
>F. Edgerton, _The elephant-lore of the Hindus
>G. Jan Meulenbeld, "Conformities and divergences of basic Ayurvedic
>concepts in veterinary texts"

But luckily there seems to be at least something. Thank you!

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
The Netherlands




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Tue Jun 23 20:33:32 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 21:33:32 +0100
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040222.23782.5625820884813019525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Hock also seems inconsistent when he insists upon the relevance of
>>retroflexion in Norwegian and Sicilian, etc.[where retroflexion seems
>>allophonic rather than structural, as Jacob Baltuch has observed ],
>
>At the risk of repeating myself (I am not sure if I have commented upon this
>before): retroflexion in spoken East Norwegian is not allophonic.

Yes, you have commented upon this before, more than a month or two
ago if I recall correctly, and I don't think I ever mentioned
Norwegian. (Or, strictly speaking, Sicilian) Re: the Romance
dialects I did mention ("southern Italian" -- I had in mind basically
those Sandra van der Geer mentioned, i.e. if I remember correctly
Calabrese and/or Pugliese -- Sardinian, Asturian) I was asking more
than stating. Please refer to posting by Sandra van der Geer and Miguel
Carrasquer Vidal for the answers.

Most importantly I think the main distinction I had in mind (see my post)
was not so much the allophonic/phonemic one but "isolated feature"/"systemic
feature". I believe Peter J. Claus also made such an observation earlier on
(in a post on 6/20). Since in that post Peter expressly referred to an
observation made earlier by George Thompson it looks like George is
sufficiently aware of the distinction between the two and what's above
must be, if not a typo, maybe somewhat carelessly expressed.

Finally, Bh. Krishnamurti uses this (other) distinction too in the post
where he outlines a scenario of the appearance of retroflexion in IA (6/21)




From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun 23 17:00:48 1998
From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 22:30:48 +0530
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040212.23782.2337900790026449124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to:
Vidyasankar Sundaresan, Devesh Soneji, Srini Pichumani, D. V. Narayana
Sarma, Ulrike Niklas and Dominik Wujastyk for very useful references on
Shahaji.
I am very interested in the "MohinivilAca-KuRavanci", by the way, as I am
struggling with the single ms. of Kosalabhosaliya, a work which narrates
the life of Shahaji and that of Rama simultaneously. Perhaps it could
illuminate some of the issues relating to the Bhosala paksha.
So I'll contact you in Pondichery next month, Ulrike.
Best regards,
Yigal.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun 23 21:55:51 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 23:55:51 +0200
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040227.23782.14376347836769627260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To Sandra van der Geer and Jakub Baltuch:

The following opinion is somebody's purvapaksha:

>>>Hock also seems inconsistent when he insists upon the relevance of
>>>retroflexion in Norwegian and Sicilian, etc.[where retroflexion seems
>>>allophonic rather than structural, as Jacob Baltuch has observed ],

This is my answer to the issue of retroflexion in Norwegian:

>>At the risk of repeating myself (I am not sure if I have commented upon this
>>before): retroflexion in spoken East Norwegian is not allophonic.
>
>Yes, you have commented upon this before, more than a month or two
>ago if I recall correctly, and I don't think I ever mentioned
>Norwegian.

I am sorry about my rotten memory. And you didn't mention Norwegian. The
other guy did. I'll try to get the name of the purvapaksha person in the future!

BTW, I know the difference between Sardinia and Sicily. Sardinia is the
island with Canunau (hope I got the phonetics of that word right).

Best regards,

Lars Martin


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no

Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45




From khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Tue Jun 23 22:10:59 1998
From: khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Katja Hofmann)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 00:10:59 +0200
Subject: Gajendramoksha
Message-ID: <161227040234.23782.11667534263701409807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

dear colleagues,
i'm looking for iconographical material on 'Gajendramoksha',(welcome are
private and/or travel-made discoveries as well); are there recent
studies (after 1992) on that matter?
Thanks for any helpful hint,
Katja Hofmann
khofmann at zedat.fu-berlin.de




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Wed Jun 24 01:26:56 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 02:26:56 +0100
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040238.23782.12391538094321053901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote:

>No, I'm your pUrvapakSa, Lars Martin, and I accept the blame for
>sloppiness, on both counts: re the Norwegian and the so-called "Sicilian"
>examples. Jacob, on the other hand, deserves the credit for making the
>point that really matters: re "isolated feature"/"systemic feature".

I thank you George but Peter J. Claus raised the same question in an earlier
post, and what's more, I believe he wrote that you had raised it even earlier
on. Hello!? A sudden inspired moment you've completely forgotten about? :-)




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Wed Jun 24 07:44:45 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 09:44:45 +0200
Subject: method of dating RV, III
In-Reply-To: <2c39ca46.35902389@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227040242.23782.577125909353346122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>If my understanding of Jan Houben's position is correct, there does not seem
>to be a consenus on the etymology of iSTaka. I would appreciate if the experts
>discuss what relationship, if any, the word for brick has to do with the word
>iSTi and its etymology.
>
>Regards
>S. Palaniappan

There is a phonetic confusion between the roots iS- "to desire" and yaj-
"to sacrify" in the formation of the words iSTa (part.) and iSTi
"vow"/"offering". It seems natural here to suppose a yaj- origin with a
suffix -ka forming concret words as in varSaka "[refuge] intended to the
rain", hence the two variants iSTakA and iSTikA "intended to the sacrifice
or to the offering". Interesting is to ask why the brick, not the altar
itself? An hypothetic answer could be that early (or in domestic use) we
have just one-brick altars. Could archeology sustain such hypothesis? Could
this explain the gender? Or this last problem could be resolved by the
semantic analogy "iSTikA like a tree bearing offerings as fruits"?
        More questions than answers, I'm afraid ;-)
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jun 24 09:42:58 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 10:42:58 +0100
Subject: Query: 11th World Sanskrit Congress in Turin?
Message-ID: <161227040240.23782.3711665019936706807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have had a message from Prof. Bhate in Pune asking whether I know
anything about the 11th World Sanskrit Congress, which she says is to be
held in Turin. I have not heard anything about this; there aren't any
announcements on the Indology home page, and I can't find any reference in
recent discussion either.

Can anyone help?

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU  Wed Jun 24 18:05:49 1998
From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 11:05:49 -0700
Subject: craft items
Message-ID: <161227040250.23782.9904843993725366216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date: June 24, 1998

Indology List
indology at Liverpool.ac.uk

Dear Members,

We have exchanged many thoughts about horses.

I wonder if the philologists on the list could speak to the words in the
relevant language families (I-E, Dravidian, etc.) pertaining to some of
the craft items found in the Indus Civilization Tradition: particularly
carnelian (beads), steatite (seals, beads, and other objects), agate
(beads), pearl and other marine shell objects.  The production sites,
trade paths and locations of use of these items are fairly well documented
in the archeology. It would seem to me words for them might be good
indicators of who was in contact with whom, when and where.



Peter J. Claus
fax: (510) 704-9636
pclaus at csuhayward.edu




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 24 18:24:31 1998
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 11:24:31 -0700
Subject: craft items
Message-ID: <161227040255.23782.14073129519560616978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---"Peter J. Claus"  wrote:
>
> I wonder if the philologists on the list could speak to the words in
the
> relevant language families (I-E, Dravidian, etc.) pertaining to some
of
> the craft items found in the Indus Civilization Tradition:
particularly
> carnelian (beads), steatite (seals, beads, and other objects), agate
> (beads), pearl and other marine shell objects.  The production sites,
> trade paths and locations of use of these items are fairly well
documented
> in the archeology. It would seem to me words for them might be good
> indicators of who was in contact with whom, when and where.

Not to forget the term for a baked brick.

Some archaeologists, e.g., the late  W. A. Fairservis Jr., are of the
firm opinion that a reconstructed artifactual vocabulary of the IVC
would be a significant resource for the decipherment of the Indus
script.

It might also throw interesting sidelight on linguistic contact and
convergence (?!) or the lack of it , in prehistoric South Asia.

Warm Regards.
==
Lakshmi Srinivas





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Wed Jun 24 16:41:20 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 12:41:20 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040248.23782.1196602442986994396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:
>Now, either retroflexion arose internally or it arose as a result of
>contact between two distinct language families in the Indian sub-continent.
>As far as I can tell, there is still no definitive argument in favor of
>either one of these alternatives.

A basic methodological question is how to pick the null hypothesis?
After all, change happens all the time. Should we look for external
causes every time?

Another question is the mechanism of how contact produced retroflexion.
Mispronounciation by Dravidian speakers has to meet some serious
objections (Hock mentions one, another which I have mentioned before
is the preservation of voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
distinctions). Are are any others? At least Hock gives a potential
mechanism in internal evolution, one which has similarities to
what has happened elsewhere.

Bh. Krishnamurti wrote:
>Such a transformation of Skt phonological system is possible only
>under a contact situation.

Isn't this basically what is being questioned? Is there a universally
applicable theory that predicts what kind of changes can occur
internally and what cannot and which is applicable to reftroflexion?
[This is not rhetorical, but is a reflection of my ignorance.]

George Thompson wrote:
>Hock also seems inconsistent when he insists upon the relevance of
>retroflexion in Norwegian and Sicilian, etc.[where retroflexion seems
>allophonic rather than structural, as Jacob Baltuch has observed ], whereas
>he balks at the relevance of Dravidian retroflexion with regard to IA
>retroflexion, because Dravidian makes a three-fold distinction between
>dental-alveolar-retroflex, in contrast to the IA two-fold distinction
>between dental-retroflex. Could someone explain to me why a proto-Dravidian
>language with such a three-fold distinction COULD NOT HAVE INFLUENCED early
>IA in such a way as to induce a dental-retroflex distinction?

I have no idea of what Hock had/has in mind. But to me he seems to be
criticizing two claims that have been made in the past.

The first is that retroflexes are so bizarre, so alien to IE that they
cannot arise by internal development and can only be due to substratum
influence. [Perhaps nobody will openly admit to believing this in this
extreme form. But, IMHO, the remnants of this are not completely dead.
For example, I don't know why anyone should cringe at retroflexed
pronunciation of -rt- etc in AE. I wonder how much of this cringing is
due to how one was taught English pronunciation, or class distinctions
inferred from such a pronunciation in India.]

Second is the claim that retroflexes are due to Dravidians
mispronouncing alveolars. People do not confuse sounds which belong to
distinct phonemes in their primary language. There are other objections
to this theory which I have mentioned before. [Anyway, where were t/d/dh
produced in PIE/PIIr? At the alveolar ridge, at the `roots of the teeth'
as said by some praati"sakhyas, or at the middle/edge of the teeth?]

A question that just struck me: How should we define a phoneme or a
minimal pair? Should we use (inflected forms of) words as actually
pronounced in speech or do we use (dictionary forms of) stems without
inflectional endings? [After all, when people speak, they do not indicate
the stem of each word they say.] If we take the former view, then there
is at least one minimal pair: iDA'/iLA' (inst. sing. of iD) vs. idA'
(adverb). Also, do we really want to consider SaT (six) and sat
(existent) as homophones?

Of course, you can argue that Dravidian contact influenced the course of
evolution of incipient tendencies already present. But that is different
from arguing that the distinction cannot have any basis in internal
development.

----------

I don't know who said that retroflexes are remarkably stable in
Dravidian languages. I wonder if that is 100% true. The table of
correspondences given in DEDR show .t (and _t) undergo all sorts of
changes in Central and North Dravidian languages. Unfortunately the few
sources on individual languages that I have access to (or DEDR) do not
come with notes such as `the sound listed as r/rr (or y or s/z) here is
>not retroflex<'.

Of course, in many of these, n/_n and .n merge. Again I wonder if the
merged phoneme is always retroflex rather than alveolar. [If IA had a
dental vs non-dental contrast, while PD had only n/_n vs .n contrast,
contact may have produced some pressure towards eliminating all
contrasts. Perhaps that is what we are seeing here and in those
Prakrits where n and .n fall together.]

------------




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jun 24 11:46:58 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 12:46:58 +0100
Subject: Feedback on CSX+
Message-ID: <161227040244.23782.7915608039518811294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A couple of weeks ago I posted details of a proposed new encoding, CSX+,
based on and almost wholly compatible with CSX, and requested feedback. I
have received a number of comments, which I summarise below, together with
my responses.  Two of them concern bad-mannered behaviour on the part of
this or that specific piece of software. My overall feeling here is that
it would not be wise to take too much notice of such problems, so long as
they are relatively minor: if we do, (a) we may introduce
incompatibilities, (b) we may fail to include all the characters we want.
Further, (c) future releases of the same programs may anyway behave
differently (for better or for even worse).

(1) B.Philip Jonsson pointed out that y-dieresis is in fact used in
Afrikaans, and John Clews added that it is "used in French, and very
frequently in Belgium". However, neither they nor anyone else suggested
that it is worth retaining it in CSX+, and I continue to propose that it
should be eliminated in favour of something more generally useful for
Indologists.

(2) Birgit Kellner remarked that (Japanese versions of) Word for Windows
assume that character 150 is a dash, and freely introduce line-breaks
after it. In CSX and CSX+ the character in question is u-circumflex; my
hope would be that this is sufficiently rarely used for the problem to be
marginal. (I have not heard of any complaints from existing CSX users.)

(3) Anthony Stone reported that WordPerfect 6.1 for Windows replaces
character 171 (a-macron-tilde) by left guillemot and character 187
(currently r-underdieresis) by right guiullemot. (The guillemots are, I
think, used in WP's "reveal codes" mode.) He himself added that WP is
anyway less than ideal for other reasons for dealing with Indological-type
material; the two characters affected are relatively uncommon ones and I
propose to leave them where they are (but see next paragraph).

A change has been made in the draft standard for transliteration of Indian
languages: it is proposed to drop r-underdieresis in favour of l-underbar.
l-underbar already exists in CSX and CSX+ (character 215), so the
elimination of r-underdieresis frees up one more slot (187). I propose to
devote that slot to R-underring, which will be needed by Sanskritists
using the standard transliteration.

I am pleased -- and surprised -- to find that CSX+ now contains capital
versions of all the characters that are at all likely to require them. At
least, I *think* it does!

A revised definition file for the whole CSX+ encoding is attached. I shall
allow a few days for final comments to come in; after that a set of fonts
implementing the new encoding will be built, and an announcement will
appear on both the Indology and Conv-dev mailing lists.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html


# CSX+ encoding for mkt1font and vpl2vpl
#
# Enhanced version of CSX (Classical Sanskrit eXtended encoding)
# for the representation of Indian languages in Roman script
#
# CSX+ aims to be downward compatible with CSX, save for moving aacute
# away from the slot (decimal 160) used as non-breaking space on PCs.
# It also seeks to implement the (draft) ISO/TC46/SC2 standard, while
# retaining a useful set of European accented characters and adding
# dashes and directional double quotes.


128	C cedilla
129	u dieresis
130	e acute
131	a circumflex
132	a dieresis
133	a grave
134	a ring
135	c cedilla
136	e circumflex
137	e dieresis
138	e grave
139	i dieresis
140	i circumflex
141	i grave
142	A dieresis
143	A ring
144	E acute
145	ae
146	AE
147	o circumflex
148	o dieresis
149	o grave
150	u circumflex
151	u grave
152	ae macron		# Was y dieresis in CSX
153	O dieresis
154	U dieresis
155	u breve			# Was cent in CSX
156	sterling
157	r underring		# Was yen in CSX
158	a acute
159	r underbar
160	space			# Non-breaking space on PC: was a acute in CSX
161	i acute
162	o acute
163	u acute
164	n tilde
165	N tilde
166	l tilde
167	m overdot
168	amacron breve
169	imacron breve
170	umacron breve
171	amacron tilde
172	imacron tilde
173	n underbar
174	runderring macron	# Was guillemotleft in CSX
175	l underring		# Was guillemotright in CSX
176	lunderring macron
177	runderring acute
178	runderring grave
179	runderringmacron acute
180	lunderring acute
181	amacron acute
182	amacron grave
183	imacron acute
184	imacron grave
185	e macron
186	o macron
187	R underring
188	y overdot
189	umacron acute
190	umacron grave
191	r breve
192	M overdot
193	m candrabindu
194	t underbar
195	E macron
196	O macron
197	n breve
198	runderdot acute
199	runderdot grave
200	K h			# Overwritten by next definition
200	Kh underbar
201	k underbar
202	space			# Non-breaking space on Macintosh
203	AE macron
204	k h			# Overwritten by next definition
204	kh underbar
205	g overdot
206	c circumflex
207	runderdotmacron acute
208	a tilde
209	i tilde
210	u tilde
211	e tilde
212	o tilde
213	e breve
214	o breve
215	l underbar
216	umacron tilde
217	G overdot
218	C circumflex
219	h underbar
220	h underbreve
221	endash
222	emdash
223	quotedblleft
224	a macron
225	germandbls
226	A macron
227	i macron
228	I macron
229	u macron
230	U macron
231	r underdot
232	R underdot
233	runderdot macron
234	Runderdot macron
235	l underdot
236	L underdot
237	lunderdot macron
238	Lunderdot macron
239	n overdot
240	N overdot
241	t underdot
242	T underdot
243	d underdot
244	D underdot
245	n underdot
246	N underdot
247	s acute
248	S acute
249	s underdot
250	S underdot
251	quotedblright
252	m underdot
253	M underdot
254	h underdot
255	H underdot




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun 24 18:41:23 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 14:41:23 -0400
Subject: method/...istaka
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b1b654b8c6f5@[134.59.129.68]>
Message-ID: <161227040251.23782.10998504916120578501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As has been reported a few times by a some members, we have:

i'STakA  (fem.)  VS+       Young Avestan  is`'tiia-  (ntr.)
iSTikA   (fem.)  SUtras    perhaps also   zemOi`'tuua- clay brick
                           Old Persian    is`'ti-    (fem.)

        (Note `' is used here for  the hacek  sign, the upside down ^)

Note also Khowar us`'tu' 'sun-dried brick';  and the divergence :
Pali iTThakA- :: Pkt. iTTA-, iTTAla- / Mbhar. iSTA-.


The new Mayrhofer (etym. Woerterbuch..., 1986-1996)  reports older
attempts to find an IE etymology.  Mayerhofer says that one could think of
remnants of a ppp. IIr. *is`'ta 'heated' from root YAS which otherwise has
disappeared, due to homonyms (iSTa 'wished/offered' <<as D. Thillaud also
assumes>> and therefore has been replaced by: yasta-.

He rejects Dravidian or Austro-Asiatic etymologies.
(Przyludski IHQ 7, 1931, 735 sqq.; Joseph IHQ 8, 1932, 376).

One can compare Tocharian izcem 'clay'; but this is now regarded as
Iranian loan word (L. Isebaert, Diss., Leuven 1980, 117)

Thus:  an Indo-Iranian root  *is`'  from which VARIOUS words for clay
brick (burnt brick, or just sun-dried) have been formed. This is
important. We do not have ONE and the same word that has been taken over
from ONE source.

In the various Old IIr. languages one could still form their words
independently, or there were several words for brick that have been
transmitted  in the various languages. Note that Vedic has 2.

In this situation it is likely that the IIr-s either took over a foreign
word (say, in the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex) when they were
first confronted with bricks, and adjusted it to their language (note even
later, the  Vedic change from is`'- > iS-). Or they formed new words based
on the root IIr. *YAS, same period, when the necessity to have a word
arose.

This speaks against a takeover from the Indus Civ. Why would the Iranians
even in SW-Persia have to borrow from the Indus (**is`'ta/i--) if they
could do so from the pre-Iranian population or the Elamians? - Also, the
Iranians would have had to borrow something like *is`'tikA... but they
have:  is`'tiia-m, is`'ti-s`' (-is`'tuua-m).

The comparatively late attestation (post-RV, post-Zarathustra) does not
surprise: There is no use for bricks in the RV (the Agnicayana is not old;
even in the Yajurveda only of the 3rd level of these post-RV Mantras!).
Zoroaster does not speak about such mundane things as bricks; even the
(old Avestan) Yasna Haptanhaiti speaks only about the generalities of
ritual not about the details of the offering ground. Not much chance to
meet the word in both languages.

Nor was there much use for bricks in a cattle herding society (Zoroaster,
RV) where people live in Yurts(?)/ on wagons and in quickly assembled
bamboo huts. Yet, both Iranians and Indo-Aryans could see bricks, starting
with the BMAC culture, and may have formed their word(s) at that time.

Attestation is another matter. It is well known that certain words are
used and transmitted, but do not appear in our (early) texts. Best known
example: Skt. pardati 'farts'.  Only post-Vedic and New Indo-Aryan (from
Kashmiri to Simhala)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

M. Witzel                                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 25 00:26:03 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 17:26:03 -0700
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040260.23782.14123805821479769667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The recent query about the Tanjavur Marathas got me thinking about a
peculiar situation with respect to these rulers. The Tanjavur Marathas
and the Maharashtrian Marathas trace common descent from Shahaji
Bhosale, who was a jAgIrdAr under the Adilshah sultan of Bijapur. The
Tanjavur branch was descended from Venkoji, and the Maharashtra branch
from his better known half-brother, Sivaji.

However, there seems to have been a substantial difference between the
way the two branches were received by their respective subjects,
especially in the early formative stages. The Tanjavur branch extended
patronage to the brAhmaNa groups associated with the court of their
predecessor Nayakas, and we see works like sahendravilAsam and
kosalabhosalIyam being composed in their honor. The Marathas seem to
have simply stepped into the shoes of the earlier Telugu Nayakas in
Tanjavur, and there seems to have been no orthodox objection to their
rule. In Maharashtra proper, however, Sivaji faced substantial
resistance to being accepted as a ruler. The very kshatriya status of
the dynasty was being questioned. Sivaji was not crowned a king till
1680, just a few years before he died, and he is also supposed to have
obtained a sammati-patra from a brAhmaNa council before his coronation.
This can't have been simply because Sivaji's mother was a second wife,
and surely this also was not due to any loyalty of the people to the
Adilshahs in the south or to the Mughals in the north. Sivaji was the de
facto king of a substantial part of the land for at least a decade
before he was crowned.

It seems to me that brahma-kshatra relations in 17th-c. Maharashtra were
very different from the contemporary situation in Tamil Nadu. Most
studies of Maratha history simply focus on Sivaji and his descendents,
and in any case, what is called Maratha history is mostly Peshwa
history. The Bhosale houses of Kolhapur, Satara and Nagpur were all more
or less subordinate to the Peshwas, who were, interestingly enough,
brAhmaNas. And it took almost a century of expansion before the Shindes,
Holkars and Gaikwads asserted their independence from Peshwa rule.
Meanwhile, the collateral Tanjavur dynasty hardly receives the attention
of Maratha historians. This seems to be fully in keeping with the
uniform neglect of south Indian history by Indian historians. Somehow,
life south of the Narmada just doesn't seem that important to them. If
the Marathas had not become a power to contend with in Rajputana and in
Delhi, I think they would simply be put down as a small rebellion within
the Mughal empire.

If the vision of north Indian historians doesn't go south of the
Vindhyas, that of the Tamil historians doesn't seem to go much farther
north than Mysore. Those who study the Tanjavur Maratha dynasty simply
don't compare them with their cousins in Maharashtra, beyond giving a
genealogical table or two. Most of the attention paid to the Tanjavur
Marathas tends to be along the lines of their cultural patronage of
south Indian music and dance. A fully integrated study of the Marathas
should offer useful insight into Hindu state (re)formation, and its
regional variations, the more so because this history is quite recent.
It should also be more immediately relevant than studying the Guptas and
the Mauryas. Plenty of source material should be available, if one just
looks for it. But no one seems to have done such a study so far.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Wed Jun 24 17:31:33 1998
From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 19:31:33 +0200
Subject: [q] Info. on B(h)uleswar temple (near Pune)
Message-ID: <161227040246.23782.12503365679568850254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

                [Posting on behalf of an acquaintance]

---------------------------------------
Could you pl. provide any information on Bhuleswar temple near Pune,
where I could see, for the first time, Goddess Vinayaki - the female Ganesha,
and also female Shiva (not ardhanariswara!), female Garuda, female Vishnu ...
I find it fascinating. Are there any scholarly studies on this interesting
temple?

Meanwhile I could find 3 monographs on _Vinayaki_, and references to her
in matsya & skanda purana-s. What about others?

Thanks!

mfG,
R.Braun

---------------------------------------

Regards,
Sreenivas

--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de
  sparuchuri at hotmail.com (in case of delivery problems at above address)




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 25 01:11:18 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 21:11:18 -0400
Subject: A question about kumbhAr caste
Message-ID: <161227040263.23782.1144333428028261284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-24 14:52:36 EDT, you write:

<< Gora the Potter had various kirtanwalas over for supper, among them
 Muktabai, Jnanadev, Nivritti, Sopan, and Namdev.  All were sitting in a row
 waiting for their food when Jnanadev whispered in Gora's ear, "Gora, you're
 a potter.  See these pots placed before you?  Can you tell me which is baked
 and which is unbaked?"  Gora got the idea and he took a spoon from the
 kitchen.  He walked down the row hitting these holy people on the head with
 his spoon.  No one reacted until he came to the end of the line, to Namdev.
 "Ouch!" Namdev said.  Everyone began to laugh at poor Namdev.  Gora said to
 Jnanadev, "This is the one unbaked pot."  In humiliation, Namdev went to
 visit Vitthal at his temple in Pandharpur.  He related his story to Vitthal
 and Vitthal replied, "They are correct Namya.  You are unbaked because you
 do not have a guru."  Namdev realized the need for a guru and went to Visoba
 Khechar, a Shaiva, for initiation.

 The story takes some interesting turns from here.  You can read Mahipati's
 account in _Bhaktavijaya_, chapter XVIII

 But there is another very interesting story about Namdev and Gora that you
 might like to hear.  Briefly:

 Gora was entirely devoted to Vitthal and would repeat Vitthal's name in his
 mind while being oblivious to everything else.  Gora and his wife had a baby
 girl.  While Gora's wife was distracted, the baby girl wondered out into the
 garden where Gora was ecstatically dancing and reciting Vitthal's name.
 Engrossed in his dancing, Gora trampled his child to death under his feet.
 His wife came out and saw what Gora had done.  She yelled at him, but he
 told her not to disturb his repetition of God's name.  She told him to swear
 never to touch her again with his hands.  He swore he wouldn't.  Gora's wife
 then arranged for Gora to marry her younger sister so that she might get
 away from him.  One night as the three slept together, Gora's two wives put
 his hands on their breasts.  When he woke up and discovered that he had
 touched them both, he fastened a sword to a tree and cut off both his hands.
 Later, Gora and his wives were attending a kirtan of Namdev's at Pandharpur.
 Namdev had incited the crowd to wave their hands back and forth in the air
 in praise of Vitthal.  Gora the Handless Potter now, couldn't join in and
 cried to Vitthal.  Suddenly hands sprouted from the stumps at the end of his
 arms.  And to top it all off his infant daughter came crawling out of the
 crowd toward him, alive and untrampled.

 So Gora and Namdev have a history.

 Hope this was helpful. >>

Thanks very much for the interesting information.

If I remember my childhood experience of going to village markets well, when
you check for quality of a clay pot, you tap it with your finger and if it
makes ringing noise, it means it is well-made. The lack of sound being a sign
of well-baked pot in this story seems to be strange. Or are my impressions
wrong? Any comments from people experienced in buying clay pots?

Among the 63 individual zaivite saints of Tamilnadu, the first one mentioned
in hagiographical accounts is tirunIlakaNTar, a potter. Do the Maharashtra
potters have any special association with bhakti movements?

Irawathi Karve says that in Karwar and Kanara districts there are certain
temples in which the worshippers belong to the caste of Konkani Kumbhars. In
Thana district, among lower classes, these Kumbhars are favourite media and
are used for consulting the spirits of the dead. When a Kunbi dies at a
distance from his family and kin group a Kumbhar is supposed to perform his
funeral. Apparently Marathas eat food cooked by Kumbhars.

Does Maharashtra have a history of potter-priest tradition?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 25 01:36:37 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 21:36:37 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040266.23782.14042375288863530244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-23 19:29:06 EDT, thompson at JLC.NET writes:

<< I will
 repeat my earlier appeal to the list: "Could someone explain to me why a
 proto-Dravidian language with such a three-fold distinction COULD NOT HAVE
INFLUENCED early IA in such a way as to induce a dental-retroflex
distinction?" >>

I do not have access to Hock's paper. But from what I see in Tamil, the
reinterpretation of alveolar as dental or retroflex should be easily
understandable. Consider the following. (R here represents alveolar t)

oTTikkiraTTi < oRRaikkiraTTi
oTTUkkEL < oRRukkEL
tITTu < tIRRu
kazaTTu < kazaRRu

ottai < oRRai
kazattu < kazaRRu
pattu < paRRu
tottu < toRRu

I also have questions about Vidyanath's position that one does not confuse the
phonemes in one's primary language. Is there any sociolinguistic evidence for
this position? How do most Malayalis pronounce certain original Tamil sounds
correctly while many Tamils do not? If they were part of the same language
community at one time, at some point in time some people must have started to
confuse different phonemes.

In a lighter vein, just compare the Tamil enunciation of the famous actors
Sivaji Ganesan and his son Prabhu. Sivaji Ganesan is well known for his
enunciation but Prabhu's confusion between retroflex and alveolars (n2 vs N)
is very noticeable. How does one account for this within the same family?
According to a film industry source, Prabhu attributed his bad pronunciation
of Tamil to his studying in a convent school. In fact, in recent years, the
pronunciation of Tamil by public performers like actors, public speakers, and
debaters (of the paTTimanRam kind) has become so horrible that the linguistic
change seems to have accelerated a lot.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Wed Jun 24 20:37:28 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 21:37:28 +0100
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040257.23782.4447132276988260186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidhyanath Rao:

>I don't know who said that retroflexes are remarkably stable in
>Dravidian languages.

I was only wondering and I most certainly never meant that individual
retroflex phonemes were stable but that the use of that *feature* was!

It is probably better to say that "the use of retroflexion" appears
to have been extremely stable. I thought overal what I meant was
clear (I don't have my post anymore but didn't I say something like
"that's 5000 years of *retroflexion*"?) but apparently I was wrong.
Sorry for the sloppy wording.

In the same sense you might say that say a preference for CV and CVC
syllables (also CVCC in pausa) or the triconsonant root structure
have been remarkably stable features of Semitic languages. That of
course would not imply that individual syllables or roots didn't undergo
change!!




From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Wed Jun 24 18:38:27 1998
From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Novetzke)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 00:08:27 +0530
Subject: A question about kumbhAr caste
Message-ID: <161227040253.23782.2992862231305959334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 06:00 PM 6/23/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-21 12:30:06 EDT, narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes:
>
><< The most famous of them is 'Gora Kumbhar'
> a devotee of Lord Panduranga Vithal who tested Namdev. >>
>
>I would appreciate getting more details of this story or at least a reference.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Regards
>S. Palaniappan
>
>


The story goes:

Gora the Potter had various kirtanwalas over for supper, among them
Muktabai, Jnanadev, Nivritti, Sopan, and Namdev.  All were sitting in a row
waiting for their food when Jnanadev whispered in Gora's ear, "Gora, you're
a potter.  See these pots placed before you?  Can you tell me which is baked
and which is unbaked?"  Gora got the idea and he took a spoon from the
kitchen.  He walked down the row hitting these holy people on the head with
his spoon.  No one reacted until he came to the end of the line, to Namdev.
"Ouch!" Namdev said.  Everyone began to laugh at poor Namdev.  Gora said to
Jnanadev, "This is the one unbaked pot."  In humiliation, Namdev went to
visit Vitthal at his temple in Pandharpur.  He related his story to Vitthal
and Vitthal replied, "They are correct Namya.  You are unbaked because you
do not have a guru."  Namdev realized the need for a guru and went to Visoba
Khechar, a Shaiva, for initiation.

The story takes some interesting turns from here.  You can read Mahipati's
account in _Bhaktavijaya_, chapter XVIII

But there is another very interesting story about Namdev and Gora that you
might like to hear.  Briefly:

Gora was entirely devoted to Vitthal and would repeat Vitthal's name in his
mind while being oblivious to everything else.  Gora and his wife had a baby
girl.  While Gora's wife was distracted, the baby girl wondered out into the
garden where Gora was ecstatically dancing and reciting Vitthal's name.
Engrossed in his dancing, Gora trampled his child to death under his feet.
His wife came out and saw what Gora had done.  She yelled at him, but he
told her not to disturb his repetition of God's name.  She told him to swear
never to touch her again with his hands.  He swore he wouldn't.  Gora's wife
then arranged for Gora to marry her younger sister so that she might get
away from him.  One night as the three slept together, Gora's two wives put
his hands on their breasts.  When he woke up and discovered that he had
touched them both, he fastened a sword to a tree and cut off both his hands.
Later, Gora and his wives were attending a kirtan of Namdev's at Pandharpur.
Namdev had incited the crowd to wave their hands back and forth in the air
in praise of Vitthal.  Gora the Handless Potter now, couldn't join in and
cried to Vitthal.  Suddenly hands sprouted from the stumps at the end of his
arms.  And to top it all off his infant daughter came crawling out of the
crowd toward him, alive and untrampled.

So Gora and Namdev have a history.

Hope this was helpful.

Christian Novetzke




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jun 25 11:51:52 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 07:51:52 -0400
Subject: [q] Info. on B(h)uleswar temple (near Pune) -Reply
Message-ID: <161227040276.23782.9530643428781690022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is this book on Vinayaki:

OCLC NO: 5650691
   AUTHOR: Agrawala, Prithvi Kumar.
    TITLE: Goddess Vinayaki, the female Ganesa /
  EDITION: 1st ed.
    PLACE: Varanasi :
PUBLISHER: Prithivi Prakashan,
     YEAR: 1978
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: viii, 44 p., [6] leaves of plates : ill. ; 26 cm.
   SERIES: Indian civilisation series ; no. 20
    NOTES: Includes bibliographical references and index.
  SUBJECT: Ganesa (Hindu deity)
    OTHER: Vinayaki.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jun 25 14:20:47 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 08:20:47 -0600
Subject: Spoken Tamil
Message-ID: <161227040279.23782.6833186627839321823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

                      RE: Learning Tamil
                     *******************


Here are some self-study tools to acquire Tamil,
Modern computer websites were provided by Dr. Thomas Lehmann
in Indology a while ago. They can be found in Indology
archives.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


a) G. Sankaranarayanan, A programmed course in Tamil.
Central Inst. of Indian Languages, Mysore, 1994, 401 p.

b) Lawrence, S. Jean
Handbook Tamil: an autoinstructional course,
Int. Inst. of Tamil studies, Madras, 1988, 500 p.

c) Sowbhagyalakshmi Vaidyanathan,
Tamil newspaper reader. (tamil ceytittal vacakam)
Kensington, Maryland, 1990, 432 p.

d) Author:        Sundaram, N. Deiva.
Title:         Tamil, an auto instructional course / N. Deiva Sundaram, A.
                 Gopal. 1st [ed.] Madras [India] : International Institute of
                 Tamil Studies, [1984]
Description:   xiv, 223 p. : ill. ; 21 cm.
Notes:         Text in Tamil; introductory material in English.
               "Febrauary [sic], 1984"--T.p. verso.
Subjects:      Tamil language -- Study and teaching -- Foreign speakers.
               Tamil language -- Spoken Tamil.

e) S. Rajaram
A intensive course in Tamil: dialogues, drills, exercises, vocabulary,
grammar and word index.  Central Institute of Indian Languages,
Mysore, 1979, 842 p.

f) Nataraca Pillai, Na.
     Classified recall vocabulary in Tamil / N. Nadaraja Pillai.  Mysore :
     Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1990.
     Series title:  CIIL recall vocabulary series ; 2.

g) Author:        Nataraca Pillai, Na.
Title:            A guide for advanced learners of Tamil / N. Nadaraja Pillai.
                 Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1986.
Description:   xvi, 236 p. ; 22 cm.
Series:        Central Institute of Indian Languages occational sic monograph
Subjects:      Tamil language -- Textbooks for foreign speakers -- English.

h) Author:        Nataraca Pillai, Na.
Title:           Pi_lai ayvu : mo_li ka_rpittalil oru putiya parvai = Error
                 analysis : a new approach in language teaching / Na. Nataraca
                 Pillai, Ca. Vimala. Maicur : Te_n_nintiya Mo_likali_n
                 Payi_r_ru Maiyam, Intiya Mo_likali_n Natuvan Ni_ruva_nam,
                 1981.
Description:   ix, 133 p. ; 22 cm.

i) Author:        Subbu Reddiar, Nallappa, 1917-
Title:           Tami_l payi_r_rum mu_rai. [E_lutiyavar] N. Cuppurettiyar.
                 i.e. 2d ed.] Tirunelveli, Es. Ar. Cuppiramaniya Pillai [1964]
Description:   xxvi, 689 p. port. 19 cm.


j)   Asher, R. E.
     Tamil / R.E. Asher.  Amsterdam : North-Holland, c1982.


k) Author:        Asher, R. E. comp.
  Title:         A Tamil prose reader; selections from contemporary Tamil prose
                 with notes and glossary by R. E. Asher and R. Radhakrishnan.
                 Cambridge [Eng.] University Press, 1971.
Description:   x, 237 p. 23 cm.



l) Author:        Pattanayak, Debi Prasanna, 1931-
  Title:         Advanced Tamil reader / D. P. Pattanayak, M. S. Thirumalai, K.
                 Rangan. Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1974-
Description:   v. ; 25 cm.



m) Author:        Pope, G. U. (George Uglow), 1820-1908.
Title:         A handbook of the Tamil language : a Tamil prose reader. New
                 Delhi : Marwah, 1982
Description:   124 p


n) Author:        Rajaram, S.
Title:         Tamil phonetic reader [by] S. Rajaram. Mysore, Central Institute
                 of Indian Languages [1972]
Description:   viii, 82 p. illus. 23 cm.


o) Author:        Schiffman, Harold F.
Title:         A Reader for advanced spoken Tamil / Harold F. Schiffman.
                 Washington : U.S. Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare,
                 Institute of International Studies, 1971.

p)   Shanmugam Pillai, M 1919-
     A Tamil reader for beginners.  [1st ed.  Chidambaram? S. Muthu
   Chidambaram, 1966-68.

q) Author:        Shanmugam Pillai, M 1919-
   Title:         A Tamil reader for beginners. [1st ed. Chidambaram? S. Muthu
                 Chidambaram, 1966-68.
Description:   2 v. 14 x 23 cm.


r) Author:        Vacek, J. (Jaroslav)
  Title:         A Tamil reader, introducing sangam literature / J. Vacek, S.V.
                 Subramanian. 1st ed. Ce_n_nai : Ulakat Tami_laraycci
                 Ni_ruva_nam, 1989.
Description:   2 v. ; 22 cm.

******************************************************************************




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Thu Jun 25 07:50:15 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 08:50:15 +0100
Subject: Inquiry: spoken Tamil grammar?
In-Reply-To: <199806250356.MAA26641@ns1.tenrikyo.or.jp>
Message-ID: <161227040271.23782.2128847549918180663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 13:01 25/06/98 +0900, vous avez ?crit :
>An American friend of mine (who speaks Japanese fluently) has been trying
>with little success to find a grammar of SPOKEN Tamil. (None of the 10 or
>so books he has procured provides paradigms for conjugation in Spoken
>Tamil.) Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Yoshi Onishi
>Tenri Center for Intercultural Studies
>

Just to mention one, at a time, there was:

 A Grammar of Spoken Tamil
 Harold SCHIFFMAN
 The Christian Literature Society (CLS)
 Madras (Chennai)


But you should first of all check (under the South Asian Gopher)
the following URL (Inventory of Languages teaching resources)
the following URL (Inventory of Languages teaching resources)

gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia/Teaching/
ILM


Best wishes

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jun 25 15:37:33 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 09:37:33 -0600
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040286.23782.5151160190819838879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Tanjore Maratha period was for a brief period. Times were tough,
many contenders, their political power and impact extremely limited.

In court rituals, they followed the pattern set by
Tanjore and Madurai Nayaks, their immediate predecessors.
That is why we find studies on their courtly productions,
which are usually by Telugu brahmins.

One reason why there was no big resistance to them:
After the decline of Pandyas, the contact between
the ruler and ruled is lost mostly. In Tamil, there is a
Proverb that tells about the public attitude:
"Raman aaNDal enna? RavaNan aaNDaal enna?"
(Who cares whether Rama or Ravana rules?)

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 25 14:14:40 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 10:14:40 -0400
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040283.23782.9937420615613693125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-06-24 20:26:52 EDT, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< However, there seems to have been a substantial difference between the
 way the two branches were received by their respective subjects,
 especially in the early formative stages. The Tanjavur branch extended
 patronage to the brAhmaNa groups associated with the court of their
 predecessor Nayakas, and we see works like sahendravilAsam and
 kosalabhosalIyam being composed in their honor. The Marathas seem to
 have simply stepped into the shoes of the earlier Telugu Nayakas in
 Tanjavur, and there seems to have been no orthodox objection to their
 rule. In Maharashtra proper, however, Sivaji faced substantial
 resistance to being accepted as a ruler. The very kshatriya status of
 the dynasty was being questioned.  >>

I think in his book, "Who were the Shudras?" Dr. B. R. Ambedkar discusses the
problems faced by Sivaji in having coronated as a legitimate kshatriya by the
Maharashtra brahmins. I think he had to bring a brahmin from Benares and
finally in spite of his efforts, he had his coronation only with puranic
mantras and not vedic mantras.

Interestingly, Ambedkar also discusses a law suit filed by some brahmins
questioning the kshatriya status of the Tanjore king. I think the case went
all the way to Privy Council. I do not remember the decision. But it might
have been decided in favor of the brahmins. The brahmins' argument was that
Parasurama had killed all the kshatriyas and there were no more kshatriyas
left.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT  Thu Jun 25 10:42:17 1998
From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 12:42:17 +0200
Subject: Query: 11th World Sanskrit Congress in Turin?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624103849.5711A-100000@ursa.cus.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227040274.23782.1959721787727763135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As far as I know a proposal to organize the 11th IASS conference in Turin
came from the Ce.S.M.E.O. (via Cavour 17, 10123 Turin, ITALY, tel.
39+11+546564). I have no more information in detail at present. I suggest
anyone interested to contact directly the Ce.S.M.E.O.
Best regards,



Alberto Pelissero
via Belvedere 51
10028 Trofarello (TO)
I T A L Y
tel. +39-11-649.03.03 (home)
tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.)
fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.)
e-mail: pelisser at cisi.unito.it

On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, John Smith wrote:

> I have had a message from Prof. Bhate in Pune asking whether I know
> anything about the 11th World Sanskrit Congress, which she says is to be
> held in Turin. I have not heard anything about this; there aren't any
> announcements on the Indology home page, and I can't find any reference in
> recent discussion either.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> John Smith
>
> --
> Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
> Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
> Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
> Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html
>




From yoshi at TENRIKYO.OR.JP  Thu Jun 25 04:01:15 1998
From: yoshi at TENRIKYO.OR.JP (Yoshi Onishi)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 13:01:15 +0900
Subject: Inquiry: spoken Tamil grammar?
Message-ID: <161227040269.23782.9797252734724612566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An American friend of mine (who speaks Japanese fluently) has been trying
with little success to find a grammar of SPOKEN Tamil. (None of the 10 or
so books he has procured provides paradigms for conjugation in Spoken
Tamil.) Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Yoshi Onishi
Tenri Center for Intercultural Studies




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Jun 25 09:30:59 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 13:30:59 +0400
Subject: craft items
Message-ID: <161227040296.23782.9037097378973904779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On June 24, 1998 Peter J.Claus wrote:


<I wonder if the philologists on the list could speak to the words in the
<relevant language families (I-E, Dravidian, etc.) pertaining to some of
<the craft items found in the Indus Civilization Tradition: particularly
<carnelian (beads), steatite (seals, beads, and other objects), agate
<(beads), pearl and other marine shell objects.  The production sites,
<trade paths and locations of use of these items are fairly well documented
<in the archeology. It would seem to me words for them might be good
<indicators of who was in contact with whom, when and where.

        I would suggest to include in the list the words for such items as
lapis lazuli (beads) and instruments used by craftsmen (in particular -
special microdrills used for piercing stones).
        Regards
                                Yaroslav Vassilkov




From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun 25 19:08:42 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 15:08:42 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040294.23782.12412062390222130949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to the recent post of Vidhyanath Rao:
>
>A basic methodological question is how to pick the null hypothesis?
>After all, change happens all the time. Should we look for external
>causes every time?

Of course not. Nobody claims that retroflexion in Amer. English, in Eastern
Norwegian, or in Sardinian, arose from contact with Dravidian speakers [add
a smiley-face here]. But, seriously, if speakers of language A begin to
adopt a set of phonological features which is also found in contiguous
language B, and if there is enough lexical and syntactical evidence as well
to suggest contact, then I think that it is reasonable to conclude that
retroflexion in lang. A was triggered by contact with lang. B [I'm happy to
call this convergence, with Hock, rather than subversion].
>
>Another question is the mechanism of how contact produced retroflexion.
>Mispronounciation by Dravidian speakers has to meet some serious
>objections (Hock mentions one, another which I have mentioned before
>is the preservation of voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
>distinctions). Are are any others? At least Hock gives a potential
>mechanism in internal evolution, one which has similarities to
>what has happened elsewhere.

Contact could have produced retroflexion in this way:

IA clan is initially in minimal contact with Dravidian clan; there is
exchange of various sorts, including wives; there must be an initial period
where a pidgin is used for such interactions; children, and in particular
sons, are born of these unions; the sons of the IA clans at the appropriate
age are taught the familiy traditions, including the recitation of the
songs of the earlier poet-seers [pUrva RSi-s].

Now at this point the child is a bilingual speaker of IA [Vedic] and
Dravidian. Recitation requiring extensive memorization and minimal
comprehension is exactly the sort of activity where a little bit of
retroflexion might creep in [this retroflexion will be allophonic -- not
yet phonemic [e.g., inherited is`'ta becomes iSTa]. The teachers of course
correct this retroflexion when they do notice [but they do not always
ntoice, I think]. But since Dravidian is now fairly common, even in the
home, at the domestic fireplace, there will be a certain amount of
[unconscious, if not conscious] tolerance for it.

So you have two distinct phonological systems operating within a single
person, a bilingual person. I see no problem with a certain amount of
convergence between both systems. Palaniappan's post shows that within
Tamil itself there is a certain amount of slippage between dentals,
alveolars, and retroflexes. So why not the same in a case of convergence?
>
[snip]

>George Thompson wrote:
>>Hock also seems inconsistent when he insists upon the relevance of
>>retroflexion in Norwegian and Sicilian, etc.[where retroflexion seems
>>allophonic rather than structural, as Jacob Baltuch has observed ], whereas
>>he balks at the relevance of Dravidian retroflexion with regard to IA
>>retroflexion, because Dravidian makes a three-fold distinction between
>>dental-alveolar-retroflex, in contrast to the IA two-fold distinction
>>between dental-retroflex. Could someone explain to me why a proto-Dravidian
>>language with such a three-fold distinction COULD NOT HAVE INFLUENCED early
>>IA in such a way as to induce a dental-retroflex distinction?
>
>I have no idea of what Hock had/has in mind. But to me he seems to be
>criticizing two claims that have been made in the past.
>
>The first is that retroflexes are so bizarre, so alien to IE that they
>cannot arise by internal development and can only be due to substratum
>influence. [Perhaps nobody will openly admit to believing this in this
>extreme form. But, IMHO, the remnants of this are not completely dead.
>For example, I don't know why anyone should cringe at retroflexed
>pronunciation of -rt- etc in AE. I wonder how much of this cringing is
>due to how one was taught English pronunciation, or class distinctions
>inferred from such a pronunciation in India.]

In light of recent list discussion, I would think that the 'bizarreness' of
retroflexes is now a dead issue. As for cringing, I'll leave it to Srini
[is this 'cringing' a ref. to his post?] to explain that. But in the USA at
least retroflexion is an easily recognizable *sign* of 'Indian-ness', as
any number of examples from pop culture clearly shows.
>
>Second is the claim that retroflexes are due to Dravidians
>mispronouncing alveolars. People do not confuse sounds which belong to
>distinct phonemes in their primary language. There are other objections
>to this theory which I have mentioned before. [Anyway, where were t/d/dh
>produced in PIE/PIIr? At the alveolar ridge, at the `roots of the teeth'
>as said by some praati"sakhyas, or at the middle/edge of the teeth?]

No, it is not a matter of mispronunciation of Dravidians; it is the
'mispronunciation' of bilinguals. Conservative Brahmins might not have
liked it but there it was all the same. Recall the passage from Ait. Ar.
which Deshpande made so much of. At this relatively late point in Vedic,
Brahmins were still disputing about the correctness of [retrofex] *Na* and
*Sa*, as opposed to [dental] *na* and *sa*. Even if one believes, with
Kuiper, that this dispute is merely about the correctness of the saMhitA
text, as opposed to the padapATha [*mo Su NaH* vs. pp. *mo iti su naH*],
the dispute is still explicit.

Vidhyanath Rao has raised a number of other points in his preceptive post,
but perhaps this post is too long already.

Admittedly the scenario that I have painted is just a 'likely story' [or
perhaps a 'not so likely story'] that is not capable of proof. The reality
was surely more complicated -- by the likely presence, for example, of
Munda and other unknown languages.

The process by means of which IA retroflexes developed from mere allophones
to independent phonemes still needs to be illuminated. Surely it can be,
and I hope will be, illuminated by the list's ziSTas [now, say that fast
three times...].

George Thompson




From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV  Thu Jun 25 20:07:42 1998
From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (jay thakar)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 16:07:42 -0400
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <161227040298.23782.2672521463875120530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please remove my name from your e-mail list. This is a second request.
Thank you.




From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Thu Jun 25 15:33:29 1998
From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 17:33:29 +0200
Subject: [q] Info. on B(h)uleswar temple (near Pune) -Reply
In-Reply-To: <s592106e.083@wpmail.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227040285.23782.17329725927290084651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Thrasher,

Thanks for citing Agrawala's title! Infact I could find his work in U of
Tuebingen library, and infact two more elsewhere (one by Yadav, and the
other by ??). What I am precisely looking for is information about this
temple in the suburbs of Poona.

Thanks and Regards,
Sreenivas




From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jun 25 14:14:34 1998
From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 19:44:34 +0530
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040280.23782.5447894790922502014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a book by Stuart Gordon "The Marathas", Oxford U. Press, 1994 --I
haven't laid my hands on it yet-- which might address some of the issues
raised by Vidyasankar.
Does anyone happen to know the name of Shahaji's second wife (and third, if
there was one)? I know the first was Deepaa or Deepaambaa.
Yigal Bronner.




From mgansten at SBBS.SE  Thu Jun 25 18:52:13 1998
From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 20:52:13 +0200
Subject: Eric Lott
Message-ID: <161227040292.23782.18324727064058211930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Would anyone on this list know the whereabouts of Eric Lott (Ramanuja
scholar in Bangalore), if and how he can be contacted, etc? Many thanks in
advance.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jun 25 16:31:11 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 21:31:11 +0500
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040288.23782.8553600091042384411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Shahaji did not have an issue. He could have married again as this is
very common in those days. In some of his kIrtanas he prays to his
favourite diety TyAgarAja for an issue. I believe he died without
an heir and the his brother succeeded him.

regards,

sarma.

At 07:44 PM 6/25/98 +0530, you wrote:
>There is a book by Stuart Gordon "The Marathas", Oxford U. Press, 1994 --I
>haven't laid my hands on it yet-- which might address some of the issues
>raised by Vidyasankar.
>Does anyone happen to know the name of Shahaji's second wife (and third, if
>there was one)? I know the first was Deepaa or Deepaambaa.
>Yigal Bronner.
>
>




From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jun 25 17:02:45 1998
From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 22:32:45 +0530
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040290.23782.2769206364697129930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Correction: my question was about Ekoji's second wife, the possible
step-mother of Shahaji.
Sorry, hope the answer exists somewhere,
Yigal Bronner.




From roheko at MSN.COM  Thu Jun 25 23:08:59 1998
From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 01:08:59 +0200
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <161227040362.23782.17911494259744933324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You have to do it by your own.
Send an email to to server adress (where you
subscribed)
write (not in the subject line)
signoff indology your email-name
or
use your email-assistant and tell him to delete
all messages from the indology server.
There is no sense to send emails to indology. This
is the wrong adress.
RoHeKo
roheko at msn.com
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: jay thakar <thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV>
An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
<INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Datum: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 1998 22:08
Betreff: unsubscribe


>Please remove my name from your e-mail list. This
is a second request.
>Thank you.
>




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 26 05:22:59 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 01:22:59 -0400
Subject: RV 133.1-3
Message-ID: <161227040302.23782.5659091110459976285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following are RV 133.1-3 from the Vedavid website.

ubhe punAmi rodasI Rtena druho dahAmi saM mahIranindrAH |
abhivlagya yatra hatA amitrA vailasthAnaM pari tRLhA asheran ||
abhivlagyA cidadrivaH shIrSA yAtumatInAm |
chindhi vaTUriNA padA mahAvaTUriNA padA ||
avAsAM maghava? jahi shardho yAtumatInAm |
vailasthAnake armake mahAvailasthe armake ||

R. T. H. Griffith translates this as follows:

1. With sacrifice I purge both earth and heaven: I burn up great she-fiends
who
    serve not Indra,
    Where throttled by thy hand the foes were slaughtered, and in the pit of
death
    lay pierced and mangled.

2. O thou who castest forth the stone crushing the sorceresses' heads,
    Break them with thy wide-spreading foot, with thy wide-spreading mighty
foot.

3. Do thou, O Maghavan, beat off these sorceresses' daring strength.
    Cast them within the narrow pit, within the deep and narrow pit.

What I am interested here is the word "vailasthAna". It has been translated as
"pit". MW gives the following meanings for relevant entries.

vailasthAna - Meaning n. a place like a hole , lurking-place , covert RV. ; a
burying-place MW

vaila - Meaning mf(%{I})n. (fr. %{vila} = %{bila}) relating or belonging to or
living in a hole or pit MW. (cf. %{baila}).

bila - Meaning n. (also written %{vila} ; ifc. f. %{A}) a cave , hole , pit ,
opening , aperture RV. &c. &c. ; the hollow (of a dish) , bowl (of a spoon or
ladle) &c. AV. VS. S3Br. S3rS. ; m. Calamus Rotang L. ; Indra's horse
Uccaih2-s3ravas L. ; N. of two kinds of fish L.

baila - Meaning mf(%{I})n. (fr. bila , also written %{vaila} q.v.) living in
holes (m. an animal living in holes) Car.; relating , to or derived from
animals in holes MBh.

A scholar by name Dr. R. Mathivanan interprets "vailasthAna" to refer to a
city of vELs or Dravidian chiefs. Can the Vedic scholars give what in their
view is the correct interpretation?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jun 26 02:47:16 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 07:47:16 +0500
Subject: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040299.23782.11476378410954187159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Difficult to find out because ZarabhOji and tulajAji(tukkOji)
who were brothers of zahAji and who succeeeded him were both
sons of dIpAmbikA. Even if ekOji had other wives, since their
sons did not come to power, the likelihood of their names
being mentioned in literature is small. But you may be able
to get some information Sarasvati Mahal Library, Tanjavur.

regards,

sarma.

At 10:32 PM 6/25/98 +0530, you wrote:
>Correction: my question was about Ekoji's second wife, the possible
>step-mother of Shahaji.
>Sorry, hope the answer exists somewhere,
>Yigal Bronner.
>
>




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Fri Jun 26 07:58:25 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 09:58:25 +0200
Subject: Cannonau
Message-ID: <161227040304.23782.643659702442874414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote,

>BTW, I know the difference between Sardinia and Sicily. Sardinia is the
>island with Canunau (hope I got the phonetics of that word right).

If you mean the delicious, tasteful, rather strong red wines of Sardinia, and
I think you do, it is spelled Cannonau. No retroflexion in the n's (only when you
drink lots of it ...).

Let's get back to India.

Sandra van der Geer
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From lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK  Fri Jun 26 09:33:31 1998
From: lau96sjh at READING.AC.UK (Simon John Haines)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 10:33:31 +0100
Subject: Tipu Sultan
In-Reply-To: <19980616193625.19710.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227040306.23782.15690359419330527423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings

Strange as it may seem ... I was wondering if anyone might be able to
direct me towards any video tapes of the long running Indian T.V serial
"Sword of Tipu" - either loan or sale. I would also be very interested in
hearing views on either this programme or the popular view of Tipu Sultan.

Thanks in advance
With Best Wishes

Simon Haines
-----------------




From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun 26 20:39:48 1998
From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 13:39:48 -0700
Subject: ANNOUNCE - Indo-Iranian linguistics mailing list
In-Reply-To: <00c101bda0f0$40869940$52098b80@default>
Message-ID: <161227040317.23782.17743578273290994090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to join. Thanks.

On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Daniel Baum wrote:

> After receiving a good response to my previous postings, this is to announce
> the formation of a new Indo-Iranian linguistics mailing list.
>
> All those who answered the previous posting should have received a personal
> invitation to join.
>
>
> List description
> ============
>
> This is a list for the discussion of Indo-Iranian linguistics. While the
> main focus of the list will be Vedic and Avestan, discussion of any
> Indo-Iranian linguistic topic will be welcome.
>
> All aspects of these languages, e.g. phonology, morphology, syntax, text
> linguistics, and historical and comparative linguistics may be discussed,
> while any other language, whether non-IE Indian, or other branches of IE,
> will be considered off-topic unless it is relevant in some way to
> Indo-Iranian.
>
> All linguistic "schools' are welcome, as long as the topic of discussion
> remains Indo-Iranian.
>
> To subscribe, send an empty message to indo_iranian-subscribe at makelist.com
>
> Daniel Baum
> msdbaum at mscc.huji.ac.il
> Home Page http://www.angelfire.com/il/dbaum
> Tel: ++972-2-583-6634; Mob. ++972-51-972-829
>




From msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL  Fri Jun 26 10:50:30 1998
From: msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Daniel Baum)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 13:50:30 +0300
Subject: ANNOUNCE - Indo-Iranian linguistics mailing list
Message-ID: <161227040308.23782.12887680743983264175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

After receiving a good response to my previous postings, this is to announce
the formation of a new Indo-Iranian linguistics mailing list.

All those who answered the previous posting should have received a personal
invitation to join.


List description
============

This is a list for the discussion of Indo-Iranian linguistics. While the
main focus of the list will be Vedic and Avestan, discussion of any
Indo-Iranian linguistic topic will be welcome.

All aspects of these languages, e.g. phonology, morphology, syntax, text
linguistics, and historical and comparative linguistics may be discussed,
while any other language, whether non-IE Indian, or other branches of IE,
will be considered off-topic unless it is relevant in some way to
Indo-Iranian.

All linguistic "schools' are welcome, as long as the topic of discussion
remains Indo-Iranian.

To subscribe, send an empty message to indo_iranian-subscribe at makelist.com

Daniel Baum
msdbaum at mscc.huji.ac.il
Home Page http://www.angelfire.com/il/dbaum
Tel: ++972-2-583-6634; Mob. ++972-51-972-829




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 26 20:06:55 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 15:06:55 -0500
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040315.23782.11685735131123171401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:11 PM 6/26/98 +0500, Sarma wrote:
>
>Did such a pan-vedic religion exist? What can this contribute to our
>discussion of Aryan homeland.
>
>
>
This is an excellent question...

What is also most interesting is Tacitus in the Germania states that the
Germanic tribes in their ancient ballads trace their origin to
Mannus(Manu) the son of god Tvisto (Tvastr)!!.
Does anyone know which Manu was the son of Tvastr ? (5th or 6th??)

What is also fascinating is the presence of the Germanic
Chatti (Khatti?) tribe.

It is possible that the Guti and the Massagetae are the remnants
of the various Khatti tribes. The Massagetae being the Maha Khatti.


Regards,
Subrahmanya




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 26 16:02:35 1998
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Maureen Donovan)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 20:02:35 +0400
Subject: Query: 11th World Sanskrit Congress in Turin?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624103849.5711A-100000@ursa.cus.cam.ac.uk >
Message-ID: <161227040312.23782.6436268593683229140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Even we don't know about the conference! (I mean, in Italy)
You should ask Prof. Botto directly or Dr. Victor Agostini at the
University of Turin.

Enrica

At 10:42 24/06/98 +0100, you wrote:
>I have had a message from Prof. Bhate in Pune asking whether I know
>anything about the 11th World Sanskrit Congress, which she says is to be
>held in Turin. I have not heard anything about this; there aren't any
>announcements on the Indology home page, and I can't find any reference in
>recent discussion either.
>
>Can anyone help?
>
>John Smith
>
>--
>Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
>Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
>Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
>Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html
>
>




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jun 26 17:11:09 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 22:11:09 +0500
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040310.23782.14911411057835789908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following is a prose passage from Vishnu Purana (4.3.40-48)
It describes how Vasishta excommunicated Sakas, Yavanas, Paradas,
Pahlavas and others from the vedic religion. Unless you are in the
the fold you cannnot be excommunicated. That means the Vedic religion
was practiced by all these groups initially.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
tatazca pitRrAjyApaharaNAdamarSitO haihaya-tAlajaGghAdivadhAya pratijJA-
makarOt.(40) prAyazazca haihaya-tAlajaGghAJjaghAna.(41) zaka-yavana-
kAmbOja-pArada-pahlavAH hanyamAnAs tatkulaguruM vasiSTaM ZaraNaM jagmuH.(42)
athainAn vasiSTO jIvanmRtakAn kRtvA sagaram Aha.(43) vatsa! alamEbhir
jIvanmRtakair anusRtaiH.(44) EtE ca mayaiva tvat pratijJAparipAlanAya
nijadharma-dvijasaGgaparityAgaM kAritAH.(45) tathEti tat guruvacanam
abhinandya tESAM vESAnyatvam akarOt.(46) yavanAnmunDItazirasO'rddha-
munDitAJchakAn pralambakEZAn pAradAn pahlavAJzmazrudharAn nissvAdhyAya-
vaSaTkArAn EtAn anyAMzca kStriyAMzcakAra.(47) EtE ca AtmadharmapartyAgAd
brAhmaNaiH parityaktA mlEcchatAm yayuH.(48)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did such a pan-vedic religion exist? What can this contribute to our
discussion of Aryan homeland.


regards,

sarma.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jun 26 21:16:13 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 23:16:13 +0200
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040320.23782.13113372080942038398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sn Subrahmania wrote:
>
>What is also most interesting is Tacitus in the Germania states that the
>Germanic tribes in their ancient ballads trace their origin to
>Mannus(Manu) the son of god Tvisto (Tvastr)!!.
>Does anyone know which Manu was the son of Tvastr ? (5th or 6th??)

I am sorry to disappoint you, but Tvisto and Tvashtr have nothing to do with
each other. Tvisto means Twin (Yama), the first part of the word tvi- is the
same as skt. dvi-. As it happens, Germanic t usually corresponds to Skt. d.
(Skt. dh corresponds to Germanic d).

And Mannus - the words means "Man", and is still in use in various Germanic
languages, German "Mann", Scandinavian "mann" and English "man". Manu/Mannus
is part of the common Indo-European heritage.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE  Sat Jun 27 07:14:41 1998
From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 09:14:41 +0200
Subject: Tvashtr
Message-ID: <161227040327.23782.8181773424615640845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>I am sorry to disappoint you, but Tvisto and Tvashtr have nothing to do with
>each other. Tvisto means Twin (Yama), the first part of the word tvi- is the
>same as skt. dvi-. As it happens, Germanic t usually corresponds to Skt. d.
>(Skt. dh corresponds to Germanic d).

But who was Tvashtr and what may the etymology of this word be?

Regards Raoul Martens




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Jun 27 13:53:14 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 09:53:14 -0400
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980627150820.0cc72d44@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040337.23782.9796857934772876102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:

> I am extremely sorry if I have offended any of the list members
> by quoting the vishNu purANa passage. I tender an unconditional apology.
> My intention in quoting the passage is simply out of curiosity and
> purely academic. No political overtones are involved.

An apology was completely unnecessary, as nobody feels offended if some
old religious/political text of another cultural area talks about its
neighbors in that fashion. If so, we would have to stop reading and
quoting(!) all of our various classical literatures from Egypt to China...

The very fact that such an apology was offered thus tells  us something
significant about the mind-set of the apologizers and about the times we
live in.

A late text such as the Visnu Purana (Gupta period?) certainly can tell us
little about the Indo-Aryan homeland or immigration which should have
taken place some 2000 years earlier. Do you take medieval European
chronicles or religious tractates as serious sources for Near Eastern or
Greek history?

To be serious, if the Visnu Purana has a (politically motivated, Y.
Vassilkov) "excommunication", the *opposite* is seen much earlier, in late
Brahmana time, when the long dead Rgveda personality (and Vasistha's
enemy), Visvamitra, literally adopts the PuNDra, Zabara, Pulinda, Muutiba
(Muuciipa), Andhra, "who live in large numbers beyond the borders."
(Aitareya Brahmana 7.18). He thus *includes* the non-Indo-Aryan tribes of
the Eastern of North India . Note that such tribes are still called
dasyu.

I do not know of a better political strategy in the early period to expand
one's cultural and political influence.

NB.: Visvamitra works, in AB 7, for the (originally despised) Iskvaku
dynasty of the Eastern U.P. area. They make their ascendency in this
period by such 'dubious' means. The same strategy is still followed in the
hills of Central India or in the Himalayas. --- For details on all of
this, see "Inside the Texts," p. 307 sqq., p.321 and already: C. Caillat
(ed.), Dialectes dans les litteratures indo- aryennes, Paris 1989, Tracing
the Vedic dialects p. 237.

> ><Did such a pan-vedic religion exist? What can this contribute to our
> ><discussion of Aryan homeland.

Apparently the Vedic(--> Hindu) sphere was extending then, as it has ever
since up to Bali, GB/USA... A pan-Vedic religion, of course, belongs to
the realm of phantasy of those who see (Indo-)Aryans anywhere from Syria
(Sura), Assyria (Asura), Egypt (misr = Mizra), the Hittites (Heth = KaTha
school), Mitanni (Maitrayaniya), Phoenicians (paNi), to Mexico (Maya) --
the name says it all: maayaa!


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Jun 27 14:23:07 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 10:23:07 -0400
Subject: Tvashtr
In-Reply-To: <199806271323.PAA12625@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227040340.23782.3068725010534037133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> At 09:14 27.06.98 +0200, you wrote:
> >Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> >>I am sorry to disappoint you, but Tvisto and Tvashtr have nothing to do with
> >>each other. Tvisto means Twin (Yama), the first part of the word tvi- is the
> >>same as skt. dvi-. As it happens, Germanic t usually corresponds to Skt. d.
> >>(Skt. dh corresponds to Germanic d).
>
> Tvasht.r is the name used for the "builder" of the universe, in other words,
> ..... form tvasht.r, but it means the same as tasht.r,

Indeed, there is the Indo-Iranian root *tvarc' as in Avestan
thwOres`'tar- "creator' = tvaSTar- .

The Indo-Aryans have eliminated the -r-.  Mayrhofer, Etym.  Woerterbuch
1986-96, p. 685 thinks, either due to phonetic interference (note that
several r often have such effects) or due to, as Lars Fosse hinted at,
interference from takS. He compares greek sarx  'flesh', (Aeolian pl.
surkes). In that case, IE *twerk'.


As for Tuisto. Lars is of course right: Tuisto ~~  old Norse twistr
'bi-sexual being', or if with some MSS: Tuisco < Germ.
*Tiwisko, son of FatherHeavn, *Tiwas (= Dyaus Pitar).

The interesting correlate is that the (west) Germanic tribes did not only
have Mannus as their ancestor (Tacitus, Germania 2) but that the (north)
Germanic groups also (Old Norse) Ymir (Edda: Voeluspa 3) as a god, very
early in the mythological story of 'creation'...

We thus have Mannus (Tacitus' spelling)  = Manu and we have Ymir (Ymi-R)
< *Yemos = Yama.

Some want to add the Roman 'ancestor' Remus, brother of Romulus (Remus <
*Yemos ).

In short, some really old ideas about twins as ancestors of Indo-European
peoples.


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sat Jun 27 07:02:07 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 11:02:07 +0400
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040329.23782.15796639790683887890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

n June 26 D.V.Sarma wrote:

< a prose passage from Vishnu Purana (4.3.40-48)
< describes how Vasishta excommunicated Sakas, Yavanas, Paradas,
<Pahlavas and others from the vedic religion. Unless you are in the
<the fold you cannnot be excommunicated. That means the Vedic religion
<was practiced by all these groups initially.
 ...............
<Did such a pan-vedic religion exist? What can this contribute to our
<discussion of Aryan homeland.

    There are some peoples in the world who believe that foreigners
(preferable Europeans) originated from sexual union of a runaway criminal
and a female pig.
    In Sumer (and probably China) the state ideology supported a myth
according to which all the merchant goods imported into the country came not
as a result of trade exchange, but were just a tribute or a sign of submission
from neighbouring nations to a local king (Emperor) - the "Ruler of the World".
    The well-known purANic myth which ascribes to all nations living to the
West of the Sindhu and to the North of Hindukush an origin from
excommunicated criminals belongs to the same type of "political folklore".
    Do you really think ethnocentric and racist fables of this kind can
"contribute to our discussion of Aryan homeland"? Or may be you do think
that they can contribute to better mutual understanding between people
of different nations?
        Regards
                                Yaroslav Vassilkov




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sat Jun 27 17:05:05 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 11:05:05 -0600
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040345.23782.138436426448143613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion

>The following is a prose passage from Vishnu Purana (4.3.40-48)
>It describes how Vasishta excommunicated Sakas, Yavanas, Paradas,
>Pahlavas and others from the vedic religion. Unless you are in the
>the fold you cannnot be excommunicated. That means the Vedic religion
>was practiced by all these groups initially.
[...]

>Did such a pan-vedic religion exist? What can this contribute to our
>discussion of Aryan homeland.

The author of this section in the PuraaNa must have included
them in his own mind. ONLY, to excommunicate them later!

Does one of the reasons for excommunication have anything to do with
beef? Obviously, there is quite a bit of beef in the Vedic.
After Aryans (gently) intruded into India, they learnt to
avoid it wheras Yavanas, etal., continue comsuming.

Like systemic retroflexion, I believe the beef avoidance more due to
the local habits' catalytic effect than the internal independent development.
Even as late as in Classical Sangam texts, the great poet Kapilar,
a brahmin confesses to his relishing of meat dishes.
Kapilar may well predate VishupuraaNa by a 1000 years.


Regards,
N. Ganesan




From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jun 27 07:05:44 1998
From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 12:35:44 +0530
Subject: Fwd: King Shahaji of Tanjore
Message-ID: <161227040324.23782.1584145586193673716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks again to all who have responded to my query on Shahaji.
S. Krishna forwarded the following information to me:

I believe that the lineage is given in a book written in Marathi called
"kAvEri khoryAtIl yakSanagari" by P. SetumAdhava rAv, the well known
antropologist. This book in addition to discussing the lineage of the
Maratha dynasty of Tanjore also discusses the lineage of the
Jagirdar of Arni, whose ancestors also migrated from Maharashtra in the
17th century with the younger brother of Shivaji. I donot have access to
the book at this point of time, but the answer should appear there.

I wonder if any of the list's Marathi readers has access to the book.

Yigal Bronner.




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jun 27 10:07:30 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 15:07:30 +0500
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040332.23782.13183376459736132315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am extremely sorry if I have offended any of the list members
by quoting the vishNu purANa passage. I tender an unconditional apology.
My intention in quoting the passage is simply out of curiosity and
purely academic. No political overtones are involved. The passage
actually occurs at the end of a chapter and could be an interpolation.
Earlier only haihayAs and tAlajaGghAs are mentioned as the enemies of
King Sagara and sakAs, yavanAs etc., are not listed among them. This
strengthens the suspicion that it could be an interpolation. But if it
iS NOT an interpolation, I was wondering whether vedic religion with
its caste system ever existed among the people mentioned at any time.

The purANic passage considers sakAs, yavanAs etc., to belong to the
vedic fold but later excommunicated (can be for political reasons).
I was wondering whether there was reference here to mithraic religion
of Middle east.

regards,

sarma.

At 11:02 AM 6/27/98 +0400, Yaroslav Vassilkov wrote:
>n June 26 D.V.Sarma wrote:
>
>< a prose passage from Vishnu Purana (4.3.40-48)
>< describes how Vasishta excommunicated Sakas, Yavanas, Paradas,
><Pahlavas and others from the vedic religion. Unless you are in the
><the fold you cannnot be excommunicated. That means the Vedic religion
><was practiced by all these groups initially.
> ...............
><Did such a pan-vedic religion exist? What can this contribute to our
><discussion of Aryan homeland.
>

>    Do you really think ethnocentric and racist fables of this kind can
>"contribute to our discussion of Aryan homeland"? Or may be you do think
>that they can contribute to better mutual understanding between people
>of different nations?
>        Regards
>                                Yaroslav Vassilkov
>
>




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Jun 27 13:23:31 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 15:23:31 +0200
Subject: Tvashtr
Message-ID: <161227040335.23782.6549096508093205670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 09:14 27.06.98 +0200, you wrote:
>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
>>I am sorry to disappoint you, but Tvisto and Tvashtr have nothing to do with
>>each other. Tvisto means Twin (Yama), the first part of the word tvi- is the
>>same as skt. dvi-. As it happens, Germanic t usually corresponds to Skt. d.
>>(Skt. dh corresponds to Germanic d).
>
>But who was Tvashtr and what may the etymology of this word be?
>

Tvasht.r is the name used for the "builder" of the universe, in other words,
it is a name for the creator god. I haven't got any etymological
dictionaries here, and therefore I cannot offer a good explanation of the
form tvasht.r, but it means the same as tasht.r, which is based on the root
*tek- + the agent suffix -t.r (Greek -teer/-toor, Skt. -taa, -tar- t.r).
Tasht.r means the same as Greek tek-toon, which is based on a slightly
different suffix, -ton-/-toon. Meaning: "carpenter".

I leave it to others with a better library to throw more light on the form
Tvasht.r.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Sat Jun 27 15:40:46 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 16:40:46 +0100
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040342.23782.14565108367761967172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone have a reference to the facsimile of Bartolomei's
Sanskrit grammar (in Grantha characters) mentioned some time
ago. (Couldn't find anything in the LoC catalog)

Also, how does one get 1983 J.H.Nye's reprint of K.Venugopalan's
Primer? (When was that originally published?)




From mcv at WXS.NL  Sat Jun 27 16:46:38 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 16:46:38 +0000
Subject: Tvashtr
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980627095329.15198B-100000@login5.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040346.23782.10237485576747686076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

>Indeed, there is the Indo-Iranian root *tvarc' as in Avestan
>thwOres`'tar- "creator' = tvaSTar- .

Reminds me of Balto-Slavic *twor-/*twer- (as in Russian <tvorec>
"creator").  C.D. Buck's dictionary says "outside connections
dub[ious]."  I can't check my Pokorny whether he considers it cognate
with or borrowed from (Indo-)Iranian.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Sat Jun 27 18:15:56 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 19:15:56 +0100
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040349.23782.9933266467643541807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

N. Ganesan wrote:

> I believe the beef avoidance more due to
> the local habits' catalytic effect than
> the internal independent development.

Really? Haven't you considered the possibility that
there are vegetarians in Norway and Sardinia also?  :-)




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Jun 27 18:39:18 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 20:39:18 +0200
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040350.23782.11626019314966115442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 19:15 27.06.98 +0100, you wrote:
>N. Ganesan wrote:
>
>> I believe the beef avoidance more due to
>> the local habits' catalytic effect than
>> the internal independent development.

J. Baltuch wrote:

>Really? Haven't you considered the possibility that
>there are vegetarians in Norway and Sardinia also?  :-)

Yes, Jacob, but Norwegian vegetarians are a fairly recent phenomenon. Until
quite recently, fish and meat was part of every Norwegian's diet if he could
afford such things. (People would often subsist on herring, potatoes, and
porridge and would not necessarily be able to buy meat on a regular basis).
I think modern vegetarianism is an imported phenomenon.

Best regards,

Lars Martin


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 28 01:35:02 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 21:35:02 -0400
Subject: (Apa)Bharani constellation and potters
Message-ID: <161227040356.23782.4250388010226981098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to Asko Parpola, post-Vedic Sanskrit tradition associates the three
stars of (apa)bharaNi with womb/pubic triangle or fire-place of three stones.
According to him, the IA word cullI used to refer to bharaNi in Digambara
Jaina tradition is generally derived from Ta. cuLLai/cULai meaning ?potter?s
kiln, furnace, funeral pile?. However, because cognates of cULai and cuLLai
occur only in Tamil and Malayalam, he says "On the basis of the regular
morphophonemic rules governing Proto-Dravidian,*cul-ay/*cull-V 'fire-place,
hearth' may be assumed to have had a variant *cUl, homophonous with Proto-
Dravidian *cUl 'to become pregnant; pregnancy, pregnant'. This Dravidian
homophony may be reflected in the double-image of the (apa-bharaNI) asterism
as 'fire-place' and 'womb'." (See Deciphering the Indus Script, p.216-17). In
the discussion below, I shall show that the potter's kiln also has traditional
connection with pregnancy.

The Tamil tradition, in addition to the womb and fire-place, has other objects
to signify the apabharaNi constellation. According to Tamil Lexicon, Ta. kOy
'pot or vessel for taking out toddy' and tAzi 'a pot with a wide-mouth' are
both used to refer to the apabharaNi constellation. tivAkara nikaNTu gives
"kATukizavOL, pUtam, aTuppu, tAzi, tAci, cORu, taruman2 nAL, pOtam" as
referring to this constellation. Here taruman2 refers to yama discussed by
Parpola as associated with bharaNi. aTuppu (fire-place), tAzi (pot) and cORu
(cooked rice) have association with fire-place. kATukizavOL can be equated to
durghA. tAci (<Skt. dAsi) signifies a prostitute with associated sexual
connotations. Interestingly, dAsi also is referred to by another word "cULai"
homonymous with the word for kiln. pUtam is 'demon, goblin, malignant spirit,
described as dwarfish with huge pot-belly and very small legs' as well as "one
of the five elements". pOtam is 'vessel, ship, boat'. Thus we have the words
falling into one of three categories - vessel, creation, and death.

According to Parpola, apabharaNi is the very last asterism of the old nakSatra
cycle and is associated with death also. In the Tamil tradition, pots or
vessels are associated with both birth and death. Consider the following poem
by tirumUlar, the earliest Tamil tantric mystic.

in2pu uRRu iruvar icaivittu vaitta maN
tun2pak kalacam aNaivAn2 oruvan2E
on2patu nIrccAl kalacam patin2eTTu
ventatu cULai viLaintatu tAn2E.                             (tirumantiram 468)

A rough translation of this poem is: One person (life) joined the vessel
(body) of sorrow made from the clay which  two persons (male and female)
agreeably placed after enjoyment. The nine water pots (holes in the body) and
eighteen vessels (organs) were fired in the kiln (the fire of mUlAdhAra,
according to the commentator) and created.

In this Tantric mystic poem, we see the conception and birth of a living being
is compared to the creation of pots by a potter. The rural Tamil tradition of
cuLLai pirittal - when a pregant woman dies, a kilnful of baked pots is
purchased and distributed to the poor for propitiating the spirit of the
deceased - again clearly links pregancy and pottery-making. The potter?s art
of producing a pot from clay must have elicited awe and admiration from early
times. His art is compared to the creation of everything by God. Consider the
following poem.

kucavan2 tirikaiyil ERRiya maNNaik
kucavan2 man2attu uRRatu ellAm van2aivan2
kucavan2aip pOl egkaL kOn2 nanti vENTil
acaivu il ulakam atu itu AmE.                             (tirumantiram 443)

A rough translation is: In the same manner as the potter can make whatever he
sets his mind to, from the clay he placed on the wheel, our Lord Ziva, if he
wishes, can make many things from original motionlessness world/initial state.

The full creative control exercised by the potter is also compared to the
control of a king over his land in the following Classical Tamil poem.

vETkO ciRAar tEr kAl vaitta
pacu maN kurUu tiraL pOla avan2
koNTa kuTumittu i taN paNai nATu E              (puRanAn2URu 32.7-10)

A rough translation is: This cool cultivated land of his crown is his (to do
whatever he wishes) in the same manner as the colorful lump of clay which the
potter children placed on the potter?s wheel (can be made into anything the
potter wishes).

The pots also played a part when someone died. They served as urns for
interment also. Thus pots have a connection of creation to the womb which the
three stars of apabharaNi represented and a connection with death which was
signified by the last place of apabharaNi in the old star cycle.   It is
probably due to these associations that the womb, kiln, and pots came to be
associated with the apabharaNi constellation.

If the pre-RV Dravidian astral civilization elements were adopted by Vedic
culture, as put forth by Parpola, then is it possible that in that transition,
the association with potter's kiln was replaced with the association with the
sacrificial fire from which things are born?

Comments are welcome.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Jun 27 21:05:32 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 22:05:32 +0100
Subject: Gajendramoksha
In-Reply-To: <359027F3.B7@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <161227040352.23782.8061538849317495657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Katja Hofmann wrote:

> dear colleagues,
> i'm looking for iconographical material on 'Gajendramoksha' [...].

There are several "Pancaratna" manuscripts in the collection of the
Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, and several contain
miniature paintings of the Gajendramoksana episode to accompany the text.

See _A Handlist of the Sanskrit and Prakrit Manuscripts in the Collections
ofthe Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine_ vols. 1 (1985) and 2
(1998).  Available from t.tillotson at wellcome.ac.uk


All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.

First Rule of History:
  History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other.




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 28 01:48:14 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 06:48:14 +0500
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
Message-ID: <161227040354.23782.1379935063593008072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 09:53 AM 6/27/98 -0400, Michael Witzel wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:
>

>An apology was completely unnecessary, as nobody feels offended if some
>old religious/political text of another cultural area talks about its
>neighbors in that fashion. If so, we would have to stop reading and
>quoting(!) all of our various classical literatures from Egypt to China...
>
>The very fact that such an apology was offered thus tells  us something
>significant about the mind-set of the apologizers and about the times we
>live in.
>

It looks as though that I have committed a faux pas by apologigimg.
Professor Witzel, I apologige to you for apologiging. I hope that
puts the whole thing out of the way.

>A late text such as the Visnu Purana (Gupta period?) certainly can tell us
>little about the Indo-Aryan homeland or immigration which should have
>taken place some 2000 years earlier. Do you take medieval European
>chronicles or religious tractates as serious sources for Near Eastern or
>Greek history?
>

purANAs contain

1) myths
2) interpolations
3) sectarian propaganda
4) politically slanted accounts
5) fantasies that are sometimes obscure to interpret.

But that is the case with all such chronicles world over. Just as the
tendency of a school of Indian Indologists to treat everything in the
purANAs as infallible is wrong, so is the tendency of other scholars
to dismiss them summarily as source of information and history (some-
times the only source however unreliable it may be). purANAS I believe
were originally intended to be something like encyclopeadias and as such
they carry the body and the state of knowledge in those times.

>To be serious, if the Visnu Purana has a (politically motivated, Y.
>Vassilkov) "excommunication", the *opposite* is seen much earlier, in late
>Brahmana time, when the long dead Rgveda personality (and Vasistha's
>enemy), Visvamitra, literally adopts the PuNDra, Zabara, Pulinda, Muutiba
>(Muuciipa), Andhra, "who live in large numbers beyond the borders."
>(Aitareya Brahmana 7.18). He thus *includes* the non-Indo-Aryan tribes of
>the Eastern of North India . Note that such tribes are still called
>dasyu.
>
>I do not know of a better political strategy in the early period to expand
>one's cultural and political influence.
>

This shows that information can be extracted even from the motivated
and slanted accounts. By the way, Andhras (that is we) are to the south
not east.

I think that the Europian scholarship should take a more serious and
critical look at purANAs.

regards,

sarma.




From bandi at CS.UMN.EDU  Sun Jun 28 14:55:04 1998
From: bandi at CS.UMN.EDU (Vijay Bandi)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 09:55:04 -0500
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980628064901.25df2ddc@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040370.23782.17308770062944348396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> >To be serious, if the Visnu Purana has a (politically motivated, Y.
> >Vassilkov) "excommunication", the *opposite* is seen much earlier, in late
> >Brahmana time, when the long dead Rgveda personality (and Vasistha's
> >enemy), Visvamitra, literally adopts the PuNDra, Zabara, Pulinda, Muutiba
> >(Muuciipa), Andhra, "who live in large numbers beyond the borders."
> >(Aitareya Brahmana 7.18). He thus *includes* the non-Indo-Aryan tribes of
> >the Eastern of North India . Note that such tribes are still called
> >dasyu.
> >
> >I do not know of a better political strategy in the early period to expand
> >one's cultural and political influence.
> >
>
> This shows that information can be extracted even from the motivated
> and slanted accounts. By the way, Andhras (that is we) are to the south
> not east.
>

Didnt they come from southern bihar or there abouts? (source:
'Andhrula caritra' by Yetukuri). There is a hypothesis that they
started migrating south circa 1000 bce and completed the process
some 1500 years later. Another name for Andhra is Telugu (eponymous
with the language spoken by them) and the same author suggests
that this name means 'south-facing' ('ten' = south in proto dravid).

Its reasonable to assume that the immigrants from north and the
native nagas of deccan and river deltas merged to form what is now
telugu naadu.

regards,
-vijay

>
> sarma.
>




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 28 13:56:56 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 09:56:56 -0400
Subject: Tvashtr
In-Reply-To: <35b22059.1155860648@mail.wxs.nl>
Message-ID: <161227040364.23782.13770101453922164864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
> >Indeed, there is the Indo-Iranian root *tvarc' as in Avestan
> >thwOres`'tar- "creator' = tvaSTar- .
>
> Reminds me of Balto-Slavic *twor-/*twer- (as in Russian <tvorec>
> "creator").  C.D. Buck's dictionary says "outside connections
> dub[ious]."  I can't check my Pokorny whether he considers it cognate
> with or borrowed from (Indo-)Iranian.
>

Pokorny p. 1102 has an IE root twerk' 'schneiden'/to cut';
he compares  Avest. and Vedic,

plus:

Greek sarx, sarkos 'flesh', sarko-phagos 'coffin', and perhaps  OHG
dwerah 'oblique/transversely'

Further:
 *twrk' > *truk' > Lat. trux, trucis 'rough, pointed...', trucidare 'kill'
etc.

and O.Irish  trU < *truk-s 'consigned to death', gen. troch < *trukos.

 ==========================================================================
M. Witzel   witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 28 14:01:51 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 10:01:51 -0400
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980628064901.25df2ddc@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040366.23782.16759124230729508126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:

> It looks as though that I have committed a faux pas by apologigimg.
> Professor Witzel, I apologige to you for apologiging. I hope that
> puts the whole thing out of the way.

Funny eh?

O well, if you re-read my sentence: it was more of exasperation with the
present (mostly western) mode of expressing oneself which assumes that one
can fix everything by just renaming certain items ...

....

> purANAs contain ...
> But that is the case with all such chronicles world over. Just as the
> tendency of a school of Indian Indologists to treat everything in the
> purANAs as infallible is wrong, so is the tendency of other scholars
> to dismiss them summarily as source of information and history (some-
> times the only source however unreliable it may be).

We can all agree on this point, I believe.

Y.Vassilkov has said it all: the Puranic account of the de-Brahmanization
of the NW is just as politically motivated as the Aitareya Br. account of
the Vedicization of the East. Both promulgated by two famous Rsis long
deceased Rsis (at the time of the late Brahamna texts/Visnu Purana and the
Greeks etc.)

Legendary history read that way will show some real but only general
historical trends and developments ; but it cannot be taken at face value.
And that is their value.

No use to reconstruct imaginary lineages some thousand years after the
fact. If one does so, one has to stick with the Romans coming from Troy,
Jesus being of David's (sorry, Adam's) lineage, etc.

This is quite different from following (the European) Pargiter's
footsteps in reconstructing actual historical dates and chronology from
Puranic and Epic accounts. We have been through this before. No one
reconstructs Israeli history from Genesis 1-5 with people living 800-900
years and having sons at that age. If you do so, or use the Puranas in
that way, you are back to my grandmother's 19th cent. grade school books,
which derived universal history straight from the Bible + Greek accounts.
All of this is obvious. But there always is the trend, as you yourself
mention, to take such texts, literally, at their word...

It has been Indologists' aim to extract as much reality from such accounts
(whether Vedic, Puranic or whatever)  as possible, long before any
deconstructionalists. Therefore everyone, I believe, can agree with your
next sentence..

> This shows that information can be extracted even from the motivated
> and slanted accounts.

> By the way, Andhras (that is we) are to the south
> not east.

I am, o wonder, quite aware of the geographical position; I even spent
sometime among the Andhras in a Vedapathasala.

But the AitBr passage talks about eastern tribes and *also* includes the
Andhras (at what exact geopgr. position at that time?) as well.

> > I think that the Europian scholarship should take a more serious and >
> critical look at purANAs.

In the way mentioned above and in many other ways "European" (etc.)
scholars have since long labored on Puranic texts. I mention just one
recent undertaking, the Tuebingen Purana project, with ed. and indexes.
Let the Pauranikas on the list 'defend' themselves....

Y. Vassilkov is right: this is a useless discussion.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 28 14:22:35 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 10:22:35 -0400
Subject: excommunication
In-Reply-To: <AADgVbr0o2@YV1041.spb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040368.23782.7622545483447792864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote:

>   The historicity of the Puraa.nas, ....
often reflects/describes in the most generalised
> and idealised way the typical, long-termed historical situations

I think most will agree with you here. But there are always those who even
reconstruct, with the help of some Epic/Puranic account, the "gray ware
people" of the middle Vedic period....

> stayed there: but since the Zatapatha Br. the region is constantly
> characterised in the texts as inhabited by barbarians, as an impure
> land.

INDEED, and AB says the at the west has long wildernesses (dIrgha araNya)
as opposed to the settled "east". Hardly any post-RV texts (if at al,
Kapisthala Samhita? Parts of the older Ait. Br.) from the post-RV Panjab.

> the pre-Aryan (Late Harappan) cultural
> substratum raised again (the Kar.naparvan of the Mbh calles the
> barbarious tribes of the NW in their totality the "Arattans" - and there
> are good chances, I believe, that "Aratta" was the name which the IVC
> people themselves called their country).

I think, a good suggestion: Their name corresponds with the substrate
pattern of the Panjab etc., with its -Ta suffixes for tribes (in my
forthc.Michigan Aryan/NonAryuan conf. contribution).

Aratta is already attested in Baudhayana Srautasutra. (cf.  Early Eastern
Iran and the Atharvaveda. Persica 9, 1980, 86-128). Strange connection
with Aratta, the land of Lapis Lazuli in the east (from the point of view
of the Mesopotanians). Lapis is found in Badakhshan (N. Afghanistan) and
in the Baluchi Chagai Hills....

it is, however, my impression that the Gandharas (homeland of Panini,
and homeland of the best speech, in Kausitaki Br.) were often excluded
from the denigration met out to the "panjabis". But I did not check all
passages right now.

In this context, the oldest "Sikh joke", is in Patanjali who calls the
Panjabis (Bahika) an "ox". (gaur vai bahIkaH)


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From srirao at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 28 06:02:57 1998
From: srirao at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Srinivasa Rao)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 11:32:57 +0530
Subject: Eric Lott's address
Message-ID: <161227040358.23782.10271074553498434146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am glad that someone is looking for the excellent visistadvaita scholar
Eric Lott. He left Bangalore nearly a decade ago. He has settled down in
England. His address then was Dr.Eric J. Lott, 51, Clumber road,
Leicester, LE5 4FH, U.K. I think he is still at this address because he
has not spoken to me about changing house. He was in Bangalore about two
months ago.
srinivasa rao
srirao at blr.vsnl.net.in




From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET  Sun Jun 28 18:33:19 1998
From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 11:33:19 -0700
Subject: Adisura
Message-ID: <161227040374.23782.11270096681450586503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

Could anyone provide me with a little minimal info on Adisura, the (mythical?) Bengali Hindu king who invited brahmanas to come from Kanyakubja to live in the Bengali area.

If not mythical, when did he live? And what was his capital?

Thank you.

Jan




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sun Jun 28 08:10:53 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 12:10:53 +0400
Subject: excommunication
Message-ID: <161227040360.23782.12829928172341903227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
        in my previous message on the subject (may be a bit too emotional
because of my fear that D.V.N.Sarma's puraa.nic quotation and
the suggested approach to it will trigger a new fruitless discussion on
the "pan-Vedic religion" and the "out of India" exodus of mankind) I forgot
to mention one important point. Under its xenophobic colouring and possible
political motivation, the puraa.nic account of "excommunication" may have
some historical basis.
  The historicity of the Puraa.nas, i.e., the way in which they reflect
history, is very close, if not identical, to the epic historicity. And the
latter is of a very special type. It never reflects/describes particular
events of real history, but often reflects/describes in the most generalised
and idealised way the typical, long-termed historical situations (as, for
example, a situation of some centuries-long ethnic or religious conflict).
Well known example: there was no particular battle in the mountains
with the "Saracenes", which is glorified in the Old French "Song of Roland",
but its description absorbed the features of many real battles and the song
itself reflects, we may say, the centuries of political confrontation on the
southern borders of France between Christians and Muslims, Frenchmen - and Arabs and
even Basques.
       If we look at the puraa.nic story from the point of view of Epic
historicity, we shall see that it can not be based on any particular real
historical fact (such as real "excommunication" of the degraded Aryan tribes
by VasiSTha). But it seems most probable that this "excommunication" account
eventually describes - in a very generalised way - the historical fact of
gradual de-aryanisation or de-brahmanisation of the North-West (Sind and Punjab)
in the Late Vedic period. We know that the people of the Rgveda knew Punjab very
well and for a long time stayed there: but since the Zatapatha Br. the region
is constantly characterised in the texts as inhabited by barbarians, as an
impure land. Probably, when the main bulk of Aryan tribes moved southwards,
down the Ga.ngaa valley, the pre-Aryan (Late Harappan) cultural substratum
raised again (the Kar.naparvan of the Mbh calles the barbarious tribes of the
NW in their totality the "Arattans" - and there are good chances, I believe,
that "Aratta" was the name which the IVC people themselves called their
country). On the other hand, since VII-VI centuries BC we can see the growth
of Iranian
influence in the NW (both from Achemenian Empire and early Saka tribes). Then
the Yavanas came... No wonder that even such NW tribe as Madras, in Vedic time
considered Aryan and orthodox, in the Kar.naparvan are called mlecchas. Of course,
many Aryan ga.nas/sa.mghas (or "k.satriyan oligarchies") of the NW from the
very beginning could be alien to Vedic/Brahmanic orthodoxy.
        So, the puraa.nic "excommunication" account has some real
historical basis which is formed probably by the long process of
"barbarisation" of the NW region since the Late Vedic period.
        Too many words. Sorry.

                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From roheko at MSN.COM  Sun Jun 28 13:48:29 1998
From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 15:48:29 +0200
Subject: Gajendramoksha
Message-ID: <161227040391.23782.9582068957480937435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Why not starting with one of the "masterpieces of
sculpture in India" (Sivaramamurti): This is to be
found at DEOGARH. VishNu on GaruDa come to rescue
the elephant in distress
RoHeKo
roheko at msn.com




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Sun Jun 28 17:36:18 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 17:36:18 +0000
Subject: Grantha characters
In-Reply-To: <v0153050cb1bac0f51865@[194.134.29.33]>
Message-ID: <161227040372.23782.8617622446466508685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 16:40 27/06/98 +0100,
vous (Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE>) avez ?crit :
>
>Also, how does one get 1983 J.H.Nye's reprint of K.Venugopalan's
>Primer? (When was that originally published?)
>
The cover page says:
********************
A primer in Grantha Characters
 by
K. Venugopalam
********************

The page next to cover page says:
********************
Published by

James H. Nye
319 West Swift Street
St. Peter, Minnesota 56082

Price
$ 1.50

Copyright (c) 1983 by
James H. Nye

All rights reserved .............
.......................
Manufactured in the United States of America
********************

The preface (p. iii) refers to
"books on Indian paleography
by A.C. Burnell, G. B?hler, and others."
and has the following signature:

          K. Venugopalam

Deccan College
Pune 411 006
India

July, 1983

*********************
The primer itself has 14 pages

***********************

Best wishes

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sun Jun 28 18:01:21 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 20:01:21 +0200
Subject: One of Earliest excommunications from vedic religion
Message-ID: <161227040378.23782.4853771972606156055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

J. Baltuch wrote:

>Really? Haven't you considered the possibility that
>there are vegetarians in Norway and Sardinia also?  :-)

\begin{smile}
Objection. Never met any vegetarian in Sardinia. Till recent, the area was very poor, and many people couldn't afford buying meat. That's not vegetarianism. Standard Sardinian meal: sheep, goat, unions and potatoes cooked together.
\end{smile}

Sandra van der Geer
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From srirao at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 28 17:12:52 1998
From: srirao at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Srinivasa Rao)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 22:42:52 +0530
Subject: Next World Sanskrit Conference
Message-ID: <161227040376.23782.17257248795763930790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is possible that Dr.Shivakumara Swamiji who was the Hon. President of
the previous conference in Bangalore knows the details. His e-mail
address is: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in
srinivasa rao
bangalore




From patte at MATH-INFO.UNIV-PARIS5.FR  Mon Jun 29 06:41:44 1998
From: patte at MATH-INFO.UNIV-PARIS5.FR (Francois Patte)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 08:41:44 +0200
Subject: Turangalila
Message-ID: <161227040381.23782.3626180958513189433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

D.H. Killingley wrote:

> Alan Thrasher's message prompts me to ask if anyone knows why Messiaen
> called his symphony 'horse-play'. Could it be a mistake for taraGga-lIlA
> 'wave-play'?
>

When asked about the title of his symphony, Messiaen replied that turnaga
refered to rythm and lila to play, game.

-- Fran?ois Patte. UFR de math?matiques et informatique.
45 rue des St P?res. 75270 Paris Cedex 06
Tel: 01 44 55 35 59 -- Fax: 01 44 55 35 35
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte




From BascombeTJ at CARDIFF.AC.UK  Mon Jun 29 10:12:55 1998
From: BascombeTJ at CARDIFF.AC.UK (Tara Bascombe)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 10:12:55 +0000
Subject: Skyhawk
Message-ID: <161227040385.23782.16047125405830682017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anyone on the list let me have the e-mail address of Dr. Luke
van Skyhawk, lately of Heidelberg University. I understand he has
done research on Eknath and the Jnaneshwari.
        Thanks in advance,
               Tara Bascombe.




From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL  Mon Jun 29 08:22:19 1998
From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 10:22:19 +0200
Subject: Romantic India
Message-ID: <161227040383.23782.4106211353990404741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Replying on an older message:

Dear friends
A few months ago someone briefly referred  to "Shubert's
opera Sakuntala". Finding the note I made then I have tried to check
it. Supposing Franz Schubert was meant, a list of his (nearly
forgotten) operas does not including anything Indian. Shubert I do
not know. There is at least one opera founded on KAlidAsa's play,
namely Franco Alfano's La leggenda di Sakuntala, premi?re at Bologna
town opera in 10.12.1921. 
(...)
Strictly speaking, this is not Indology, but nevertheless an
interesting part of the Western conception of India. It would be
interesting to know, whether there are more examples.

Regards,
Klaus Karttunen

Dear listreaders,
there is the opera Padmavati by the French composer Albert Roussel. The work was first performed in Paris in 1923. There is a CD-recording of the opera: EMI 7478918. I have studied the relation of the opera to the legend of Padmavati of Chitor and other literary versions of this theme, but the article I wrote on it is in Dutch. (Th. de Bruijn (1991): 'De sati van Padmavati, inspiratiebron voor Muhammad Jayasi en Albert Roussel', in: Hanneke van den Muyzenberg and Th.de Bruijn eds. Waarom Sanskrit, Honderdvijfentwintig jaar Sanskrit in Nederland, pp.74-85. Leiden: Kern Institute. [Kern Institute Miscellanea 4].

By the way, this is certainly also Indology, as Indology is all about the perception of India in the West.

Best wishes,
Thomas de Bruijn
IIAS/NWO-Leiden University




From jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Mon Jun 29 15:44:54 1998
From: jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (James Nye)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 10:44:54 -0500
Subject: Grantha primer
In-Reply-To: <199806291205.HAA26365@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040395.23782.17154490231153049374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A Primer in Grantha Characters by K. Venugopalan is not a reprint, but a
first edition.

I inquired today at South Asia Books and found they still have 10 copies in
stock.  The original price was $1.50.  Please contact South Asia Books for
more information.

          South Asia Books
          P.O. Box 502
          Columbia, Missouri 65205 USA
          phone:        573-474-0116
          fax:  573-474-8124
          email:        sab at socketis.net
          homepage:     http://www.genius.net/indolink/Global/saBooks.html

Alternatively, Motilal Banarsidass may still have copies in Delhi.  They
have the beginnings of a site at <http://www.mlbd.com/index.html>.

James Nye
Bibliographer for Southern Asia
University of Chicago

At 06:58 AM 6/29/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:36:18 +0000
>From: Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR>
>Subject: Re: Grantha characters
>A 16:40 27/06/98 +0100,
>vous (Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE>) avez =E9crit :
>>
>>Also, how does one get 1983 J.H.Nye's reprint of K.Venugopalan's
>>Primer? (When was that originally published?)
>>
>The cover page says:
>********************
>A primer in Grantha Characters
>by
>K. Venugopalam
>********************

[SNIP]

>*********************
>The primer itself has 14 pages
>***********************
>Best wishes
>-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)
>




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Mon Jun 29 09:35:16 1998
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 11:35:16 +0200
Subject: Skyhawk
In-Reply-To: <694046D6F93@HUMSCF2S.CF.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227040387.23782.18038010978327002950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Hugh van Skyhawk
Ruprecht-Karls-Universitaet Heidelberg
Suedasien-Institut
Abt. Klassische Indologie
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
D-69120-Heidelberg
Tel.: +49-6221-544914

He does not seem to have an email account (?). Perhaps you can use
the email address of the secretary's office:
sai at www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de




From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI  Mon Jun 29 11:34:10 1998
From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 13:34:10 +0200
Subject: excommunication
Message-ID: <161227040389.23782.2264663264745391111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues
DVN Sarma started this discussion with a quotation from the
ViSNupurANa. The same story, Sagara conquering the Haihayas and
TAlajanghas and excommunicating their allies, various Northwesterners
including the Yavanas and the Zakas, is found in many PurANas (and a
combined text in Kirfel). It is an interesting documents of Indian
ideas ahbout the Northwesterners (see also KarNa's rebuke of them in
the MahAbhArata), but the chronological context seems here to be
something like 0-500 CE and has thus nothing to do with the Vedic
times.
Regards
Klaus Karttunen

P.S. I shall be away three weeks from now and cannot comment any
further discussion during that time.




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 29 20:40:32 1998
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 13:40:32 -0700
Subject: Gajendramoksha
Message-ID: <161227040408.23782.16590752877761532924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are many, many Vaishnava temples in South India
which either depict the Gajendramoksha episode in relief
on the gOpura or pillars, or have Vishnu as Gajendravarada
as a deity with a shrine of his own.  One could almost
say that this episode is ubiquitous in Sri Vaishnava
temple iconography, given the popularity of this episode
in the Alvars' poetry and southern Vaishnava devotionalism.

Two temples that immediately come to mind are "aTTabuya karan"
(ashTa-bhuja-kara) in Kanchipuram, where Gajendra-rakshaka
is the primary deity, and the Varadaraja shrine in Tiruvallikkeni
("Triplicane"), Madras, where Vishnu on Garuda is depicted as
saving the elephant. Both of these temples have been sung of
by Tirumangai Alvar, the temple-goer extraordinaire, and
hence predate the 8th-9th centuries C.E.

Mani




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jun 29 18:06:33 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 14:06:33 -0400
Subject: h, s, s-hacek in Iranian
Message-ID: <161227040399.23782.12341655044332246021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The recent discussion about retroflexion in IA raises, for me at least,
a question about Avestan and Iranian in general.

In Iranian, PIIr *s becomes h, PIE *k' becomes s and the
ruki-conditioned s becomes s with hacek. Can these three be stuffed into
just two phonemes? In particular, can h and s-hacek be considered
allophones of a single phoneme in Iranian?

Regards
-Nath




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jun 29 18:22:29 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 14:22:29 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040403.23782.3703888726520268887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote:

[I have deleted George Thompson's description of bilingual children
causing the change, so save bandwidth. I have also changed the order to
put what I consider to be the most serious objection first.
]

How did the bilingual children cause the splitting of `n'? In
Dravidian, dental and alveolar n's are allophones of the same phoneme,
contrasted with the retroflex. To judge by the situation in South
Dravidian languages, dental n occurs word initially and before dental
stops, alveolar n elsewhere. It does not matter whether you posit
bilingual children or pidgins or creoles. Why would they split what is
one phoneme in >both< languages involved, while preserving the dental
where it could not occur in Dravidian?

The same problem applies to the sibilants. Proto-Dravidian has no
sibilant phonemes. Sibilants seem to come only from assibilated stops
or affricates. So why was the sibilant system made >more< complicated
instead of being simplified or at least left alone?

Any theory that does not explain the two thing above is necessarily
incomplete.

Another problem is that the four way distinction based on voicing and
aspiration is preserved in IA, even though no such distinctions existed
in Dravidian. Why was there no effect on this distinction?

``mispronunciation of bilinguals'' ignores the distinction between
early bilinguals and late bilinguals. When not ghettoized, early
bilinguals quickly grow out of any interference between sounds that so
dog late bilinguals. And when contact with speakers of second language
outnumber contact with the speakers of the first language, the former
shows no ill effect whatsoever. And you are suggesting that the
`mispronouncing bilinguals' grew up in IA tribes.

And finally, a practical question: What did the children speak to their
parents? IA to one and Dravidian to another? In such cases, as long as
given person speaks the same language to the child at all times, modern
research indicates that the child will pick up both languages well,
speaking exactly like their model.

Or do you assume that they spoke a pidgin/creole and that Sanskrit was
always a second language? [That is another of those vexed questions
which I do not want to go into unless absolutely neccessary.]

>In response to the recent post of Vidhyanath Rao:
>
>>A basic methodological question is how to pick the null hypothesis?
>>After all, change happens all the time. Should we look for external
>>causes every time?

>But, seriously, if speakers of language A begin to adopt a set of
>phonological features which is also found in contiguous language B, and
>if there is enough lexical and syntactical evidence as well to suggest
>contact, then I think that it is reasonable to conclude that
>retroflexion in lang. A was triggered by contact with lang. B

But many of these features don't appear till much later than RV. On the
other hand, retroflexion goes back much further. In fact, in RV there
is less difference between internal sandhi and external sandhi in this
matter. How do you explain this? [This is also one of Hock's
objections.]

This is likely to be the explanation for the AA passage mentioned
elsewhere: If the pronunciation mo-Su-NaH was limited to rcs, while in
ordinary speech people said mo-su-naH, then the point would have been to
preserve the original pronunciation instead of using the daily
pronunciation.

I have pointed out another possibility before. In Prakrits, the
tendency [contact induced?] is to simplify the sibilant system, into
just one phoneme. Similar thing happened with the nasals, also in Central
and North Dravidian languages. The AA passage may be in reaction to this
tendency.

>[...] the sons of the IA clans at the appropriate age are taught the
>family traditions, including the recitation of the songs of the earlier
>poet-seers [pUrva RSi-s].

But what did these sons speak when they were two or three? A pidgin
(generation after generation)? A creole (syntactical changes in Vedic,
then Panini's bhaasha, Katyayana's language and that of Pali cannon are
too gradual to consider any of them a creole)? Dravidian languages (if
so, why did everybody switch to IA eventually?)? IA languages (see
above, about line 50-60, for the objection)?

You should not anachronistically transfer what happened much later, when
people spoke Prakrit at home and learned Sanskrit at 8 or after, back
to Vedic times. I had to memorize some of Bharatiyar's songs in school,
but that does not mean that I learned Tamil only at that time.

>But in the USA at least retroflexion is an easily recognizable *sign* of
>'Indian-ness', as any number of examples from pop culture clearly shows.

Pronouncing w as v is an easily recognizable sign of Germans, at least
in the pop culture. What substratum is that pronunciation due to.

The argument also works in reverse. Pronouncing dentals and retroflexes
as alveolars is, at least in Tamil Nadu, part of the stereotype of
non-South Asians. If all the PIE t/d/dh were alveolars and all alveolars
become retroflex, where did the dentals in Sanskrit come from?

>The process by means of which IA retroflexes developed from mere allophones
>to independent phonemes still needs to be illuminated.

I recall something Dominique Thalliand (sp?) said in March/April when
we at this: The occurance of front rounded vowels in French, German etc
used to be attributed to substratum influence. but now, it is taken to
be the result of internal development. Does this hold any lessons for
us?

Regards
-Nath




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jun 29 18:24:00 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 14:24:00 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040405.23782.4352484173947133433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalimutthu Palaniappan wrote:

>I do not have access to Hock's paper. But from what I see in Tamil, the
>reinterpretation of alveolar as dental or retroflex should be easily
>understandable. Consider the following. (R here represents alveolar t)
>oTTikkiraTTi < oRRaikkiraTTi etc
>ottai < oRRai etc

On the other hand, intervocalic _t becomes r, produced near the
alveolar ridge, but is not retroflex. Alveolar _n, which is still found
in some dialects at least. This differs from what happened in IA.
Furthermore there is no phonological pattern in Tamil. It seems to be
affected by semantics (oTTu) or by assimilation to retroflexes occurring
nearby, but no phonological pattern as we see in IA.


>I also have questions about Vidyanath's position that one does not confuse the
>phonemes in one's primary language. Is there any sociolinguistic evidence for
>this position? How do most Malayalis pronounce certain original Tamil sounds
>correctly while many Tamils do not? If they were part of the same language
>community at one time, at some point in time some people must have started to
>confuse different phonemes.

You are confusing language change with language learning. Pronunciation
can and change over time, and such changes can cause previously
distinct phonemes to merge or one phoneme to split. But synchronically
distinct phonemes in primary language(s) are not confused. In fact
it is more likely that what were learnt as distinct phonemes would
still be felt as different when hearing a language where they are not.
A good example of this was given in the very first book about phonetics
I read. A friend (I am not sure of his native language, but it was a minor
one in the Middle East) of the author told him that he always felt that
the sound of `t' in top and stop were different. The feelings of
English speakers learning Japanese concerning r and l are not any
different.


>According to a film industry source, Prabhu attributed his bad pronunciation
>of Tamil to his studying in a convent school.

He may not be completely wrong. People think that the first language
learnt will influence the others but not the other way around. This is
not quite true. My seven year old, when he was in preschool three and
half years ago, would become disconcerted if I spoke to him in English
in front of his teacher. But now, after a year of full-time school, he
sounds exactly like other neighborhood children; so much so that my
sister complained that she cannot understand him anymore!

But more seriously, this may be partly due to the more cosmopolitan
nature of Chennai. I did not go to a ``convent school'', but my younger
sister did go to a school (from 3rd grade) where talking in Tamil in
class was frowned upon (but it was Protestant run, so not quite Convent;
also the children did talk in Tamil in the playground and outside the
school, and of course in Tamil class). This seems to have been
sufficient to make her and her friends sound like typical Madurai kids
born in the 60's, although they did affect American mispronunciations of
some words, most irritatingly Tamil. That this was an affection was
obvious when they said, say `taLLippO' (of course their L and `zh' were
not clearly distinct).

Regards
-Nath




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jun 29 19:17:10 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 15:17:10 -0400
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
Message-ID: <161227040407.23782.15385303376774713235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

>To be serious, if the Visnu Purana has a (politically motivated, Y.
>Vassilkov) "excommunication", the *opposite* is seen much earlier, in late
>Brahmana time, when the long dead Rgveda personality (and Vasistha's
>enemy), Visvamitra, literally adopts the PuNDra, Zabara, Pulinda, Muutiba
>(Muuciipa), Andhra, "who live in large numbers beyond the borders."
>(Aitareya Brahmana 7.18).

How is the AB story the `opposite' of `excommunication'? Vi"svaamitra
wants to adapt "Suna.h"sepha as his eldest son. Of V's 100 sons, the
fifty who are older than "S object. Then V curses them (anyvyaajahaara)
saying ``antan va.h prajaa bhak.sii.s.ta''. This looks like
disinheriting rather than adopting.

N. Ganesan wrote:

>Does one of the reasons for excommunication have anything to do with
>beef? Obviously, there is quite a bit of beef in the Vedic.
>After Aryans (gently) intruded into India, they learnt to
>avoid it wheras Yavanas, etal., continue comsuming.

>Like systemic retroflexion, I believe the beef avoidance more due to
>the local habits' catalytic effect than the internal independent development.

The most serious objection to this is that evidence from IVS and other
sites indicates the use of beef there/then.

We have gone over the beef question before. In the Vedas, beef is
limited to ritual or guest reception (madhuparka). Other pastoral
societies too allow the consumption of beef in ritual while frowning on
the use of beef in general. Attacking this was an easy and obvious
propaganda ploy for the heterodox. Given the use of beef outside the
`Aryan' communities as well, their influence is a matter of stubborn
belief in face of contrary evidence.

On the question of ahi.msa in general, see H. P. Schmidt in Festschrift
Renou. Here too, internal development is likely. What we see with beef
is part of what happened in general.

It was(is?) quite common to believe in ``Unchanging East'' vs ``Dynamic
West''. For some eye-opening examples, see Schaffer and Lichtenstein in
the Erdosy volume so often mentioned recently. [But I do not recall
anyone proposing to discuss the issues raised in this paper.] The urge
to wave ones arms about shouting ``Substratum influence'' at every
change is a reflection of this attitude. Denial is easy. But prejudices
did exist among Western Indologists and it is important to sort out the
implications, or give an ab initio treatment, before their conclusions
can be cited.

Incidentally, the translation of `go' as `cow' in all contexts adds to
the clouding of the issue. When I see ``ayam gau.h'' translated as
``this is a cow'', I cannot help recalling the joke about the new
graduate from an Ag and Tech place telling the seasoned farmer ``I
would be surprised if you can get any milk out of this cow.'' [I have
deliberately omitted the punch line.]

Regards
-Nath




From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Mon Jun 29 14:31:17 1998
From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 16:31:17 +0200
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040393.23782.3914652913688015071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a reference to the facsimile of Bartolomei's
> Sanskrit grammar (in Grantha characters) mentioned some time
> ago. (Couldn't find anything in the LoC catalog)
>
> Also, how does one get 1983 J.H.Nye's reprint of K.Venugopalan's
> Primer? (When was that originally published?)

I have a copy of Nye's 1983 edition of Venugopalan's primer. However, it
is useful only for printed Grantha texts - not for manuscripts. If you
are interested I'll mail you a copy.

jn
--
jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de



Juergen Neuss

Freie Universitaet Berlin

Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte

K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a

14195 Berlin




From swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun 29 16:05:03 1998
From: swamiji at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 21:35:03 +0530
Subject: Next World Sanskrit Conference
Message-ID: <161227040397.23782.16588816475931706555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

I have NO communication whatsoever from Turin so far except the official announcement made at the Bangalore conference last year to hold the next World Sanskrit Conference in Turin in the year 2000.  I heard the other day in Paris that Prof Botto and his team are preparing the first circular and that it will be sent soon.

Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sri Taralabalu Jagadguru Brihanmath   * Taralabalu Kendra
Sirigere - 577 541, Karnataka, India     * 3rd Main Road, 2nd Block
Email: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in     * RT Nagar, Bangalore - 560 032
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

----------
From:   Srinivasa Rao[SMTP:srirao at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN]
Sent:   Sunday, June 28, 1998 10:42 PM
To:     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject:        Next World Sanskrit Conference

It is possible that Dr.Shivakumara Swamiji who was the Hon. President of
the previous conference in Bangalore knows the details. His e-mail
address is: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in
srinivasa rao
bangalore

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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jun 30 02:36:32 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 22:36:32 -0400
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
In-Reply-To: <199806291917.PAA11601@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040410.23782.17214247834122735586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote:

> Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
> > "excommunication", the *opposite* is seen much earlier, in late
> >Brahmana time, when the long dead Rgveda personality (and Vasistha's
> >enemy), Visvamitra, literally adopts the PuNDra, Zabara, Pulinda, Muutiba
> >(Muuciipa), Andhra, "who live in large numbers beyond the borders."
> >(Aitareya Brahmana 7.18).
>
> How is the AB story the `opposite' of `excommunication'? Vi"svaamitra
> wants to adapt "Suna.h"sepha as his eldest son. Of V's 100 sons, the
> fifty who are older than "S object. Then V curses them (anyvyaajahaara)
> saying ``antan va.h prajaa bhak.sii.s.ta''. This looks like
> disinheriting rather than adopting.

This is the pima facie, literal, mythological reading.
I was talking at a higher level...

In detail: this is (pseudo-)mythology:

(a) who has 100 sons, except for some really rich potentates?

(b) by the time of the late Ait.Br., the long deceased, now mythical
Visvamitra adopts the equally mythical Sunahsepa. (Diff. in RV)

(c) if some 50% of V's other 100 sons are the ancestors of the
Mundas, Andhras etc. etc. how would that work? Is this eastern Abraham
populating half of India? (Drav. & Mundas certainly have no linguistic or
other relationship with Vedic/Brahmanical culture until after
"Vedaization"/Hinduization)

Or is he including the Munda and Dravida by this very scheme?
I think rather the latter.
One should not forget that the Brahmana text frequently argue
"backwards", a well known fact.

(d) if these tribes/peoples are Visvamitras "grandsons", albeit sons of
cursed sons, they are depicted as (degraded) Aarya, like the Kasi,
Kamboja, Iksvaku, or not?

(e) if they are similar to the Aarya they can be "bettered" just like the
Kasi, Videha and others who have to be (re)taught the use of the sacred
fire and of the rules & regulations of Vedic "Hinduism". (Details
in: "Inside the Texts")

But they first have to acquire the status of being Aarya at all, somehow.
And that is precisely what this neat little tale does here.

(f) thus they are "in" and 'out' at the same time and can be (re)taken
into the fold as the opportunity presents itself. We have dozens of
examples of this actually taking place, from then on until present times.

...


> shouting ``Substratum influence'' at every
> change is a reflection of this ["eternal India"] attitude. Denial is
> easy. But prejudices
> did exist among Western Indologists and it is important to sort out the
> implications, or give an ab initio treatment, before their conclusions
> can be cited.

and, ditto, for some Indian indologists. Conspiracy, again??

Substrates exist anywhere in the world, except before the
Americas and Polynesia were first populated, comparatively
recently. E.g., Europe is full of substrates and no one denies or
deplores that. So why should it be different in South Asia? No one *ever*
entered ?

This is a belief only equalled by late Stalinist Marrism/archaeology and
now by Renfrew's *eternal *Britain, (well, he got a 'Sir' out of it)
which is supposed to have seen only 2 "invasions", that of
Caesar/followers and of the (few hundred!) Normans...

...

> Incidentally, the translation of `go' as `cow' in all contexts adds to
> the clouding of the issue. When I see ``ayam gau.h'' translated as
> ``this is a cow'',...

Well, we don't do that: Gaur bahIkaH.
But "iyam gauH"  means, at least in Vedic,
"the cow is this one (i.e. the earth)".

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun 29 18:05:35 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 23:35:35 +0530
Subject: Skyhawk
In-Reply-To: <199806290935.LAA26830@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Message-ID: <161227040401.23782.10918973286629057853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Roland Steiner wrote:

> Dr. Hugh van Skyhawk
> Ruprecht-Karls-Universitaet Heidelberg
> Suedasien-Institut
> Abt. Klassische Indologie
> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
> D-69120-Heidelberg
> Tel.: +49-6221-544914
>
> He does not seem to have an email account (?). Perhaps you can use
> the email address of the secretary's office:
> sai at www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de
>

He has the following, admittedly cryptic address:

ar2 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de

RZ.-




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jun 30 13:36:54 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 09:36:54 -0400
Subject: h, s, s-hacek in Iranian
In-Reply-To: <199806291806.OAA07699@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040418.23782.10857941037532534627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote:

> In Iranian, PIIr *s becomes h, PIE *k' becomes s and the
> ruki-conditioned s becomes s with hacek.

(1) as is well known,

IE * k'mtom >  Latin centum : Skt. s'ata- (zata-)   Avestan sata- /
(satem)  e = schwa
Hence, "Satem languages".

and ruki  is`', us`' etc.

but there are amny other cases.

>  Can these three be stuffed into just two phonemes? In particular, can h
> and s-hacek be considered allophones of a single phoneme in Iranian?

Certainly not. s`' (hacek) has several origins and is carefully
distinguished from both s and h in Avestan.

(2) s`' (hacek )  <  also from *k's/tk' (Avest. kas`'a/ Ved. kakSa);
and from ps > wz`';  etc. etc.
and of course from the ruki cases.

The whole is made more difficult be several sub-dialects of Avestan
How to write Avestan in a 7-bit scheme?!!

(3)
In addition there is also palatal s`' '  (hacek plus accent aigu on top)
which developed from the equivalent of Vedic cy
i.e. the famous Nirukta case of Kamboja (= East Iranian) s'avati  for
Young Avestan s`' ' auua(i)ti. ~ Ved. cyavate

In good MSS this is distinguished from simple s`'.


(4)  s and h are of course also clearly distinguished.

old *s is is only preserved in some cases (asti = ved. asti, etc.)

All of these various development resulted in phoneme status. No longer
just simple phonetic allohones of s/h/s`' sounds

This is not just phonetics or a specialty of priestly  recitation
You cannot substitute these in pairs.


We thus have  by now 4 phonemes: s, h s`', s`' ',


and one could add the dotted  s`' .  <   rt  (as`'.a ~ ved. Rta) Older
pronunciation probbaly [hl] (lateral l) as shown in mpers ahlavan for
Avest. as`',uuan-. Medieval (in India) > s`'.

Plus the xi(i) case from sy, plus ngh < s  in -asa-/AsA- surrounding,
plus xv  < sv etc etc


I sum: many phonemes. Plus  some phonetic variants, mostly due to dialects


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH  Tue Jun 30 07:58:08 1998
From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 09:58:08 +0200
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040412.23782.16576642899823500856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Juergen Neuss

even though you did not promise to send copies all over I still kindly
ask you whether you could send me a copy in the same go - as we would
appreciate to have it in Berne as well. 
Thank you very much!

yours sincerely

marianna


Juergen Neuss schrieb:
> 
> Jacob Baltuch wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have a reference to the facsimile of Bartolomei's
> > Sanskrit grammar (in Grantha characters) mentioned some time
> > ago. (Couldn't find anything in the LoC catalog)
> >
> > Also, how does one get 1983 J.H.Nye's reprint of K.Venugopalan's
> > Primer? (When was that originally published?)
> 
> I have a copy of Nye's 1983 edition of Venugopalan's primer. However, it
> is useful only for printed Grantha texts - not for manuscripts. If you
> are interested I'll mail you a copy.
> 
> jn
> --
> jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de
> 
> Juergen Neuss
> 
> Freie Universitaet Berlin
> 
> Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
> 
> K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a
> 
> 14195 Berlin




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jun 30 10:30:41 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 11:30:41 +0100
Subject: Word processing
In-Reply-To: <3598B8D7.777AE61D@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227040416.23782.6097522387517218990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Martin Bemmann wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> we are planning to switch from DOS to Windows (95) for our publication
> projects. Currently we are working with WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS) using the
> fonts and keyboard drivers of Prof. Emmerick.
> A ttf-font and keyboard layout (Caraka) is also available for
> WordPerfect vor Windows. Are there other systems recommendable esp. for
> Word for Windows?
> We need diacritical marks for romanized Brahmi/Kharosthi/Sarada and
> Sogdian/Partian/Bactrian. The font should have a times-roman like
> layout.

If you can supply me with a list of exactly what characters you want, and
preferably exactly where you want them to go (what positions they should
have in the encoding), I can supply you with suitable high-quality
freeware fonts. (This is on the assumption that all the diacriticals you
require are either standard ones -- e.g. macron, breve -- or easily
created from standard ones -- e.g. underring, underdieresis.)

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Tue Jun 30 10:07:19 1998
From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 12:07:19 +0200
Subject: Word processing
Message-ID: <161227040414.23782.3940066532677577122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

we are planning to switch from DOS to Windows (95) for our publication
projects. Currently we are working with WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS) using the
fonts and keyboard drivers of Prof. Emmerick.
A ttf-font and keyboard layout (Caraka) is also available for
WordPerfect vor Windows. Are there other systems recommendable esp. for
Word for Windows?
We need diacritical marks for romanized Brahmi/Kharosthi/Sarada and
Sogdian/Partian/Bactrian. The font should have a times-roman like
layout.

Regards,

--
Martin Bemmann

Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften
>Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway<
Karlstrasse 4
Postfach 102769
D-69017 Heidelberg  -- Germany

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From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 30 21:49:43 1998
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 14:49:43 -0700
Subject: Mani Varadarajan-Gajendramoksha
Message-ID: <161227040424.23782.6821905858300979318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Katja Hofmann wrote:
> Am I right in assuming that "aTTabuya karan" in Kanchi is the same as
> described by R. Champakalakshmi (1981):"appears to date from at least
> the sixth century A.D. as there is a reference to it in one of the hymns
> of PEyAlvAr..."-?

I do not recall the exact reference in Champakalakshmi's work, but
it is most likely the same temple. Here is the paasuram by Pey Alvar:

        toTTa paDaiyeTTum tolaata venRiyaan
        aTTa puyakarattaan a~n~naanRu, kuTTattuk
        kOLmutalai tu~ncak kuRitteRinta cakkarattaan
        taaL mutalE nangaTkuc caarvu.

                        -- mUnRaam tiruvantaati, 99

The sannidhi in Tiruvallikkeni is popularly known simply as
Varadaraja Sannidhi, so it is easy to think that this deity
is just a replica of Kanchipuram's Varadaraja Swami. Knowledgable
locals, however, regularly refer to this deity as Gajendra varadan
and Tirumangai's hymn in praise of this god refers to his saving
the elephant.  If you look carefully at the mUrti (the sannidhi
is not well lit and is frequently closed), you will see Vishnu
standing on Garuda ready to use his cakra, the classic
Gajendra-moksha pose.

Tiruvallikkeni, like many divya-desams, forbids photography of
mUla bera-s, so it is unlikely you will see a photograph of this
idol.  Gajendra varadan's shrine is also nowhere near as popular
as teLLiya singar (Narasimha), venkatakrishnan (parthasarathy),
or the goddesses, so artistic renderings of this particular
deity are also hard to come by.

Mani




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Tue Jun 30 19:59:55 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 20:59:55 +0100
Subject: h, s, s-hacek in Iranian
Message-ID: <161227040420.23782.5566183388477949492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I know this is a sily question but, I'm curious, why are
Avestan topics being discussed on this list when there's
now a brand new Indo-Iranian list? :-)




From khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Tue Jun 30 19:59:48 1998
From: khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Katja Hofmann)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 21:59:48 +0200
Subject: Mani Varadarajan-Gajendramoksha
Message-ID: <161227040422.23782.10093331661771677263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You wrote:
>
(...)
>
> Two temples that immediately come to mind are "aTTabuya karan"
> (ashTa-bhuja-kara) in Kanchipuram, where Gajendra-rakshaka
> is the primary deity, and the Varadaraja shrine in Tiruvallikkeni
> ("Triplicane"), Madras, where Vishnu on Garuda is depicted as
> saving the elephant. Both of these temples have been sung of
> by Tirumangai Alvar, the temple-goer extraordinaire, and
> hence predate the 8th-9th centuries C.E.
>
> Mani

Thank you for this information.
Am I right in assuming that "aTTabuya karan" in Kanchi is the same as
described by R. Champakalakshmi (1981):"appears to date from at least
the sixth century A.D. as there is a reference to it in one of the hymns
of PEyAlvAr..."-?
I didn't know anything about the other shrine in Tiruvallikkeni until
you wrote me.
Is there any publication or photography available of the scene that you
described ?
Sincerely,
Katja Hofmann
khofmann at zedat.fu-berlin.de




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun 30 22:04:13 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 03:34:13 +0530
Subject: Word processing
In-Reply-To: <3598B8D7.777AE61D@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227040426.23782.1009454433662667841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> we are planning to switch from DOS to Windows (95) for our
> publication projects. Currently we are working with WordPerfect 5.1
> (DOS) using the fonts and keyboard drivers of Prof. Emmerick.
> A ttf-font and keyboard layout (Caraka) is also available for
> WordPerfect vor Windows. Are there other systems recommendable esp.
> for Word for Windows?

Dr. Smith has made beautiful freeware fonts from Austria available
on his Cambridge ftp site earlier, in both TrueType and Postscript
versions and in two coding schemes: Norman and CSX.

The advantage of Norman coding is that a few signs which are
necessary for transliterating Dravidian are there, which are
missing in CSX. (Some users argue that CSX is better because it was
designed for use on PCs, but I do not notice any advantage and have
therefore never understood the argument.) Dr. Shivamurthy
Shivacharya intends to bring out an extended version of these
Austrian fonts which contains all the signs necessary for literary
Dravidian.

To facilitate the use of these fonts (and of (La)TeX) I have
written a program that takes a text file and makes the necessary
substitutions, starting from one of the transliteration systems in
use on the Indology List. This program can be used with an input
file in ASCII or in RTF format (a common option in all the better
word processors). If you are interested, I can give you (or anyone
else who is interested) the executable program for use with OS/2 or
DOS, along with instructions on how to use it.

RZ