From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Wed Jul  1 02:21:34 1998
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 22:21:34 -0400
Subject: Very very belated reply
Message-ID: <161227040428.23782.16487094268019778986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

About a year ago, I received an e-mail from someone on Indology who had
written an alternate history of India featuring word play from Hobson-Jobson.
I kept meaning to reply, didn't, and now can't find the e-mail. I checked the
Indology archives and wasn't able to find it, which leads me to think it was a
privately sent e-mail.

So if that someone would care to resend it, I'll be more careful this time
around.

Brian


--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jul  1 03:15:46 1998
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 23:15:46 -0400
Subject: h, s, s-hacek in Iranian
In-Reply-To: <v01530505b1bef293d6d6@[194.134.29.23]>
Message-ID: <161227040430.23782.1787242411286537505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote:

> I know this is a sily question but, I'm curious, why are
> Avestan topics being discussed on this list when there's
> now a brand new Indo-Iranian list? :-)

Good point!
Answer: because someone asked on this list...

In future please c/c to the IIr list.!

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Wed Jul  1 18:05:56 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 14:05:56 -0400
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
Message-ID: <161227040433.23782.12592673358235394626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
> Or is he including the Munda and Dravida by this very scheme?
> I think rather the latter. [...]
> But they first have to acquire the status of being Aarya at all, somehow.
> And that is precisely what this neat little tale does here.
>
> (f) thus they are "in" and 'out' at the same time and can be (re)taken
> into the fold as the opportunity presents itself. We have dozens of
> examples of this actually taking place, from then on until present times.


Should we really expect ancient/medieval Indians to know the difference
between considering Kambojas/Sakas etc to be `fallen Aryans' and
considering Andhras, Pulindas etc. to be such.

If my memory serves me right, Manusmrti lists Yavanas, Sakas, Dravidas
etc as `vraatyas'. For the writer at least, all these groups had the
same status: Possessing political power, and worth coopting.
In this respect, I agree with you on (f) above. I just think that all
the different cases of this kind of writing are motivated by the
same idea.

----

> > Incidentally, the translation of `go' as `cow' in all contexts adds to
> > the clouding of the issue. When I see ``ayam gau.h'' translated as
> > ``this is a cow'',...
>
> Well, we don't do that: Gaur bahIkaH.
> But "iyam gauH"  means, at least in Vedic,
> "the cow is this one (i.e. the earth)".

Off hand I cannot remember where all I have seen such translations.
One place I remember is subhramanya Sanstri's ``Lectures on Mahabhashya''.

Anyway, I just wanted to underline the mistake of beef = meat from cow.

Regards
-Nath




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Wed Jul  1 18:27:46 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 14:27:46 -0400
Subject: h, s, s-hacek in Iranian
Message-ID: <161227040435.23782.5731773441757496240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[I have cc'ed this to the Indo-iranian list. I have no objection to
moving it over there, together with the retroflexion thread.]

> > In Iranian, PIIr *s becomes h, PIE *k' becomes s and the
> > ruki-conditioned s becomes s with hacek.

I don't have any books on hisotrical Iranian phonology handy, but perhaps
I should have said intervocalic s.

I thank Professor Witzel for his detailed reply. Now I need to find out
how they were actually pronounced. Does anybody know if Beekes' grammar
of Gatha Avestan covers this? (It is checked out of the library at the
moment. I plan to read it at some future time anyway.)

> and one could add the dotted  s`' .  <   rt  (as`'.a ~ ved. Rta) Older
> pronunciation probbaly [hl] (lateral l) as shown in mpers ahlavan for
> Avest. as`',uuan-. Medieval (in India) > s`'.

Can hl or just l (both l's lateral) become s`', or did both come out of
some other common pronunciation? also wouldn't this change mean that
t in -rt- was pronounced differently than intervocalic t/tt?

The whole point of my question was if the triple distinction s/"s/.s
of Sanskrit can be considered as due to Dravidian influence or if
Iranian forces us to recongize this for a common PI-Ir stage. It looks
to me that the latter is the case.

Regards
-Nath




From Ar.Zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE  Wed Jul  1 13:59:36 1998
From: Ar.Zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 15:59:36 +0200
Subject: KOLAM
Message-ID: <161227040431.23782.3283290188965450571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here we are again:

the 2nd volume of "Kolam", our e-journal for Tamil Studies is ready and
accessible from our institute's homepage:

http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.e.html

Follow the link to Kolam.
Please feel free to send us your comments.

The Editors

-------
Arash Zeini
Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies
Lexicon of Iranian Languages:
http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/lil/lilframe.html




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Jul  1 22:23:34 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 17:23:34 -0500
Subject: my ignorance of Skt.
In-Reply-To: <199807011805.OAA10040@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040437.23782.7400832978375311745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am sure this is due to nothing more than my almost non-existent knowledge
of Skt., but I cannot understand Prof. Witzel's

Gaur bahIkaH.

 (well, I've got the first word ...).  Would someone save me from my ignorance?

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Jul  1 22:56:38 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 18:56:38 -0400
Subject: Retroflex sounds
Message-ID: <161227040439.23782.14258112944012507737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It looks like interest in this thread has dwindled. But let me propose the
following.

In a message dated 98-06-29 14:14:53 EDT, vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu writes:

<<
 Furthermore there is no phonological pattern in Tamil. It seems to be
 affected by semantics (oTTu) or by influence from retroflexes occurring
 in adjacent syllables, but no phonological pattern as we see in IA.
 The `easy understandability' ignores such details.

 As always, the devil is in the details. It is about time that we face him,
 instead of waving our hands and then running away. >>

I see a systematic connection between Dravidian and IA in this manner. In
Classical Tamil the following morphophonemic rules can be seen.

l + n > n2
kuricil +nI > kurucin2I
kal + neJcam > kan2n2eJcam

l + t > _t or _t_t
iyal + tEr > iya_tEr
kal + tAzai > ka_t_tAzai

L + n > N
tAL + nArai > tANArai
kaL + nurai > kaNNurai

L + t > T or TT
kaL + tAzi   > kaTTAzi
nAL + tO_tum > nATO_tum

If I understand the Fortunatov's law, as discussed in Madhav Deshpande's 1979
article, correctly, in IA

*l +d > D

Actually, if we use a transliteration system based on actual Tamil
pronunciation for intervocalic T, and Stephen Levitt's finding of the split of
Dravidian *l into l and L, we shall end up with Fortunatov's law as one of the
results of applying Dravidian morphophonemic rules to l+d cluster.

For example, if we had a hypothetical form *iyal splitting into iyal and iyaL,
then
iyal+tEr > iya_tEr
iyaL+tEr > iyaTEr

In other words, original iyal+tEr > iyaTEr, or l+t > T (pronounced as D).

I have been wondering if this type of alternation within Dravidian could have
a long history. I have found some pairs of words with very similar semantics
but one word having alveolar and the other one having aretroflex.

Examples
DED 4326 vala - to surround
DED 4348 vaLai - to surround

DED 859 o_t_tu - to press, hug close
DED 807 oTTu - to stick, glue on

DED 1311 cilampal (*kil-) - a chatterer
DED 1677 kiLappu - speech, utterance

In DED, kiLappu has been grouped with words like kEL - meaning to hear. The
semantics seem to suggest, it may not belong here. Tolkappiyam uses the verb
kiLa- so often in a sense of utterance that one should consider seriously if
the words speak and hear really belong together in that entry.

I have also pointed out that there are quite a few cases where North Dravidian
(and even Central Dravidian)changes *r to a retroflex. In that case, a dental
following the retroflexed r can easily become a retroflex T.  I think Levitt's
paper where he discusses r-l alternation and splitting of *l into l and Land
my finding regarding North and Central Dravidian reflexes of *r may offer some
useful explanation for the IA retroflexes.

Anyway, these are not final conclusions, but suggestions for further
consideration.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jul  2 02:46:35 1998
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 22:46:35 -0400
Subject: my ignorance of Skt.
In-Reply-To: <v03020901b1c0665c7cd7@[130.132.186.110]>
Message-ID: <161227040441.23782.9516359761210426550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Gaur bAhIkaH is taken as a derogatory comment meaning:  "The bAhIka (or
bAhlIka, a resident of the northwestern region of this name) is [stupid
like] a bull."  This is often cited as an example of gauNI lakSaNA.

                        Madhav Deshpande

On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, jonathan silk wrote:

> I am sure this is due to nothing more than my almost non-existent knowledge
> of Skt., but I cannot understand Prof. Witzel's
>
> Gaur bahIkaH.
>
>  (well, I've got the first word ...).  Would someone save me from my ignorance?
>
> Jonathan SILK
>
> ****Note New Email Address***:
>
> jonathan.silk at yale.edu
>




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Thu Jul  2 07:07:45 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 09:07:45 +0200
Subject: crocodile
Message-ID: <161227040443.23782.13387539115073205934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear listmembers,
        I'm not understanding well the tactical formation 'makaram' used
two times in the MBh (once by dhRSTadyumna (6.71), once by karNa (8.7)).
        I could imagine three lines (please, align with tabs ;-)
                   ^
                  oOo
                |||||||
- the 'tuNDa'
- the head between both eyes
- the nape with the biggest part of the warriors
        But, if the dangerous 'tuNDa' is occuped by bhIma or karNa, the
just as dangerous eyes are occuped by the twins or by zakuni and ulUka,
poor warriors, leaving much better ones in the head (arjuna, azvatthaman)
and in the nape (sAtyaki, duryodhana).
        Had somebody an explanation (actual strategy or grammatical
influence of the dual)? How translate here 'tuNDa': beak, snout, mouth? Do
an Indian ear hear the meaning tudati in this tuNDa?
        Merci d'avance,
Dominique

PS: to save bytes, I not send the text, but I can do it if you need.

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jul  2 15:08:03 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 09:08:03 -0600
Subject: R. E. Asher
Message-ID: <161227040445.23782.15289770988448312072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can someone please give me the address of Prof. R. E. Asher?
I need the address, telephone number. A friend wants to send him
a copy of a recent translation of TirukkuRaL by Kabalisvaran.

Thanks,
N. Ganesan




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jul  2 16:11:51 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 10:11:51 -0600
Subject: Early excommunications from / inclusions into vedic ...
Message-ID: <161227040453.23782.6059746024004946854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> the beef avoidance more due to
>> the local habits' catalytic effect than the internal independent development.

Vidhyanath Rao wrote:
>The most serious objection to this is that evidence from IVS and other sites
>indicates the use of beef there/then.

  If IVS refers to Indus Valley Sites, the beef consumption may be
  by certain sections of society even then. Just like today's India
  or in India from the beginning of history. Appar of Tevaaram
  talks of "aa urittut tin2Ru uzalum pulaiyarEn2um". Cankam texts
  also show variation in eating veg,/nonveg. food depending of the
   groups of people.

>In the Vedas, beef is limited to ritual or guest reception (madhuparka).
>Other pastoral societies too allow the consumption of beef in ritual while
>frowning on the use of beef in general.

   For anything to be accorded an important status in rituals,
   they must be valued highly amidst that society. Compare giving taambuulam
   to guests, using paddy (rice) in wedding rituals. Ciivaka CintaamaNi
   (8th century) describes taambuulam as muka vaacam (mukha vaasam), the then
   mouth fresheners!

   Any journal articles or books on meat in Rigveda or later vedic texts,
    upanishads, the Jain influence will be appreciated.

   Valluvar, who must have lived prior to 5th century CE, says:
    "avi corintu aayiram vETTalin2 on2Ran2 uyir cekuttu uNNaamai nan2Ru"
   He does not like killings in the name of Vedic rituals.


Regards,
N. Ganesan




From jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jul  2 15:24:06 1998
From: jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (James Nye)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 10:24:06 -0500
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040454.23782.2264941905274335551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I trust that members of the Indology list will respect the fact that "A
Primer in Grantha Characters" is both under copyright protection and also
still available for sale, as I mentioned in my message on June 29.  South
Asia Books have gone out of their way to stock the publication -- certainly
not a title with much turnover -- as a service to Indologists.  They should
not be deprived of sales through illegal copying.

James Nye

>Date:    Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:58:08 +0200
>From:    Marianna Kropf <marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH>
>Subject: Re: Grantha characters
>
>Dear Juergen Neuss
>
>even though you did not promise to send copies all over I still kindly
>ask you whether you could send me a copy in the same go - as we would
>appreciate to have it in Berne as well.=20
>Thank you very much!
>
>yours sincerely
>
>marianna
>
>
>Juergen Neuss schrieb:
>>=20
>> Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>> >
>> > Does anyone have a reference to the facsimile of Bartolomei's
>> > Sanskrit grammar (in Grantha characters) mentioned some time
>> > ago. (Couldn't find anything in the LoC catalog)
>> >
>> > Also, how does one get 1983 J.H.Nye's reprint of K.Venugopalan's
>> > Primer? (When was that originally published?)
>>=20
>> I have a copy of Nye's 1983 edition of Venugopalan's primer. Howeve=
>r, it
>> is useful only for printed Grantha texts - not for manuscripts. If =
>you
>> are interested I'll mail you a copy.
>>=20
>> jn
>> --
>> jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>>=20
>> Juergen Neuss
>>=20
>> Freie Universitaet Berlin
>>=20
>> Institut f=FCr Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
>>=20
>> K=F6nigin-Luise-Str. 34a
>>=20
>> 14195 Berlin




From Chantal.Lemay at TYPOLITHO.COM  Thu Jul  2 14:42:08 1998
From: Chantal.Lemay at TYPOLITHO.COM (Chantal Lemay)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 10:42:08 -0400
Subject: Looking for original sanskrit samhita
Message-ID: <161227040448.23782.6748265339180705090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To all members.

The following excerpts were spontaneously translated in India in 1982, reportedly from the Shiva Purana (or from a title like Bhashkhar Sangita... or samhita?), but I coudn't trace the same in english editions. Unfortunately, I do not understand sanskrit to find the original text.

1) Does anyone of you scholars have an idea about the original sanskrit text?

2) At least, has anyone heard about this dialog between Angiras and Brahma before?

3) If I can't find the bibliographical reference from here, I will search for it during my next trip in India (probably next spring). In this eventuality, does anyone have a contact of a scholar or an advanced sanskrit student, in North India (Delhi or Varanasi), that would be prepared to conduct this research for me? Of course, I agree to pay for any (reasonable) professional fees.

A reply would be greatly appreciated.


Ms Chantal Lemay
Qu?bec (Canada)
chantal at dynagram.com



Excerpts:
-------------
As Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva create, preserve and destroy the universe, they have also the duty to make the universe function. The Lord therefore ordered Brahma and Vishnu to create for mankind, but Shiva went deep into meditation, for it was not yet his time to work actively.


Brahma and Vishnu, after deep meditation and prayer, concentrated, and Ekandmuni appeared. At that moment, Brahma entered his creative state and, through the power of his thought, concentrated on the Word, uttered it, and Angiras was created by the power of the Word.


Then Brahma and Vishnu gave to Angiras the powers of the three worlds so that he could understand, create, control and maintain in the three worlds. For this knowledge and power Angiras was sent to Markande for Initiation. Markande initiated Angiras and said, "For you to continue your work, Angiras, I will always dwell within you so that you will be all-powerful."


Through the power of the Word Angiras could create and, as his soul was all-knowing, he was one with the Creator. In this state he created all the beings that were necessary for the protection and preservation of mankind. Among these were seven Rishis, three Sages, and sixteen others who each were given a different aspect of the Lord Shiva. They had their respective tasks, all very powerful.


It was through these beings that Angiras was able to maintain law, order and spiritual integrity in the universe. The arts of healing, agriculture, justice, mercy, law, order and harmony were restored. After this Angiras asked to be absorbed back into Brahma as his word had been completed.


Brahma said, "Your task is not completely finished, Angiras. You will come back in Treta Yuga as Vasishtha and again in Kali Yuga. One of the worst of all ages is yet to come, as in this Kali Yuga, lies, dishonesty, wine, pleasure, etc., will totally dominate, so that the lower desires will be rampant in the world. The spiritual structure of man will be destroyed, women will lose their virtue and destroy homes. Men will work only for material gain and lose their morality."


"When mankind has fallen very low there will be six nights and six days of floods. The earth will be covered with water. Then the power of the sun will come out like twelve suns, and this power will dry the earth. After this, Dharma or moral virtue, will return to the earth and Markande will initiate this new age of Dharma. Markande will then be able to influence mankind with the real truth and knowledge."


Angiras is the Son of Brahma. In Kali Yuga he will also be the Son of Brahma, and in Treta Yuga he will be Vasishtha. In Treta Yuga the work of the devotee will be to do Bhakti.


In the beginning, Angiras had every power and created. This power was the energy of the previous age that was the reservoir of spiritual energy for the next age. In Satya Yuga the aspect of power in Angiras was at its height. In the next age, Treta Yuga, when moral virtue again decreased in mankind, Vasishtha came and his spiritual power only became supreme through great devotion, love, ascetism, prayer and meditation. This power was created through Bhakti as only through Bhakti was he able to achieve total powers. The continuity of this energy moved into Kali Yuga and kept the spiritual energy active until mankind descended deeper into Kali Yuga.


At this time there will be no moral virtue, no peace; only vice and lies will reign. Even some of those who had spiritual powers previously will try to control mankind in a negative way. They will be in conflict and will misuse their power. When sin and evil are at their peak, then will come one who will save the world. 

... etc. ...




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980702/3a0aac05/attachment.htm>

From mvishnu at FORE.COM  Thu Jul  2 14:46:43 1998
From: mvishnu at FORE.COM (Meenaradchagan Vishnu)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 10:46:43 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040451.23782.13691664691923723463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following article is taken from

AUTHOR, ETC.: Walker, George Benjamin, 1913-
TITLE: The Hindu world; an encyclopedic survey of Hinduism by Benjamin Walker.
IMPRINT: New York, Praeger [c1968]

(Typos are mine.)  Comments from Sanskrit fans/scholars welcome.

Meenan Vishnu

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SANSKRIT (samskrita, 'elaborated'), the principal of the post-Vedic
languages of India, is regarded by Hindus as a sacred tongue,
'currently among the gods' (I, p.20).  Actually Sanskrit is a
comparatively late arrival among the ancient tongues, dating from about
300 B.C, while itd masterpieces were produced from some six centuries
later.  As its name implies, Sanskrit was an artificially 'put
together' medium of communication, as opposed to the spontaneously and
natuarally evolved Praakrit.  It constituted in effect an elaboration
of a decadent form of Vedic, built upon rules mainly fixed by the
grammarian PaaNini (c. 300 BC).

Four stages of Sanskrit are often distinguished, namely (I) PaaNinian
Sanskrit, after PaaNini who first codified the current rules governing
the language, (2) Epic Sanskrit, the language of the Mahaabhaaratha and
RaamaayaNa, (3) classical Sanskrit, the language of the kathaas,
dramas, kaavyas, histories, and PuraaNas, and (4) Medieval Sanskrit,
exemplified in the jargon of the monasteries, the 'dog Sanskrit' of
craftsmen's handbooks, and other variants (see Literature).

A comparison between Vedic and Sanskrit shows that in phonology the two
language did not differ much; while in accidence it might be called not
a development but a decadence from the Vedic system.  Several Vedic
grammatical forms are lost in Sanskri, aprticularly in respect of mood;
one form of the infinitive has survived in Sanskrit out of fifteen
forms used in Vedic.  A similar loss is found in tenses and prefixes.

Sanskrit however made up its losses by developing a technique of
coining massive compund words, rare in Vedic, and in a complex
grammatical and structural framework both in prose and verse.  In
addition to the seven Vedic metres a score of other metres came into
vogue in Sanskrit, some of them hardly usable without verbal
contortion.

The difference between Vedic and Sanskrit reflected the indigenous
'Hindu' milieu in which the latter language developed, as distinct for
the Indo-Iranian background of early Vedic.  The Indo-Iranian triabl
communities gave place to new territorial kingdoms situated on great
rivers and the jungle retreats of the rishis.  The old Iranian gods
faded in importance and were substituted by deities of new dimensions,
Brahmaa, Shiva, VishNu, KrishNa, the Naagas, the Linga.  The
supernatural, the demoniacal and the grotesque invaded Sanskrit almost
from the beginning.

The development of Sanskrit was considerably modified by the infusion
of a large number of foreign words.  The philosopher Kumaarila
commented on how foreign words were picked up and transformed into
Sanskrit by grammatical and phonetical alterations, often so cunningly
that the original wors were hardly recognizable.

Sanskrit thus had its roots in the decadent form of Vedic which gave it
its structural core.  The peculiarly Indian characteristis as distinct
from the Iranian were due to the prevailing influences of the older
dialectical forms of Praakrit which itself had been modified by a
diversity of aboriginal linguistic influences in India.  The word
borrowings give an indication of the areas in which these influences
operated.

The indiginous Austric 'ng' sounds are found in the name Gangaa (the
river Ganges) and the word linga, both Austric words.  Many place-name
endings, like garh (e.g. Ramgarh) are aboriginal or Munda in origin.
Tibeto-Burmese or north-eastern loan words include Bhullam-buthur,
'making a gurgling sound', which became Sanskritized into Brahmaputra,
the name of India's largest river.

Similarly, Dravidian elements are strong in Sanskrit which derives much
of its intonation from native speech.  The phonetics system of Sanskrit
is intermediate between Tamil and the Dravidian tongues on the one hand
and the Indo-Iranian languages on the other.  Certain sounds, unknown
to the Aryan family of speech notably the cerebrals, found their way
into Sanskrit from the Dravidian languages (VIII, p.202), and it has
been pointed out by some scholars that teh syntax of Sanskrit, as od
all other Aryan languages in India is fundamentally Dravidian rather
than Aryan in character.

Words borrowed from the Dravidian tongues were sometimes arbitratily
changed and it is therefore not always easy to recognize the original.
But in many cases, especially in the Sanskrit of the South, Dravidian
words were taken over with scarcely any attempt at modification.  The
following are a few such words:  chayra, 'thief'; maala, 'garland';
paapa, 'sin';pooja, 'worship'; putra,'son'; vaira, 'hostile'.
Name-endings such as cheri, 'place' (e.g Pondicherry); naad, 'country'
(e.g. Tamilnaad); nagar, 'town' (Vijayanagar); pur, 'city' (e,g
Durgapur), are likewise Dravidian.

>?From Iran came a wide vocabulary of Indo-Iranian words that were part
of the original inheritance of the Indo-Aryan period of history.  In
later times important words like divira (scribe), kshatrapa (satrap),
lipi (writings) mudraa (seal), were adopted from Persian.

The evolution of Sanskrit received further stimulus during the period
of foreign (barbarian) domination of the north, starting fromt the
Greeks who brought to bear on Indian life and culture fresh influences
deriving from Alexandria and the Mediterraean Greek world.  Evidence of
the Greek heritage is found in the Sanskrit vocabulary of mathermatics,
astronomy, numsimatics, warfare, the theatre and medicine, for
example:   harija (from horizon); hridroga (Greek hudrochoos); kendra
(kentron); lipta (lepte); leya (leon, lion); parthona (Parthenos);
trikona (trigonon); kona (gonia, angle).

Inevitably further mutations of Sanskrit speech continued throughout
the centuries of foreign domination and, as Kumaarila observed, many
loanwords from the Kushaans, Parthians and Sakas were picked and
assimilated (I,p.274).  Seed-beds of foreign influence enjoying great
celebrity in academic matters were places like Taxila and
Pushkalaavatee, and it was in this fertile soil of classical Sanskrit
was first developed (VIII, p.258).  The use of Sanskrit for profane as
opposed to sacred writing was to a great extent due to the initiatives
of Mongolian Saka amd Kushaan satraps of Western India during the
second century AD, one of whom, Rudradaaman, is responsible for the
first official inscription in Sanskrit throughout.

Its so-called final and present form was fixed during the braahmanical
revival whose vehicle was the Sanskrit language.  This period saw the
development of a characteristic feature, those strange linguistic
monstrosities, the lumbering sesquipedalian compounds which reached
their fulfilment in the kaavya and gadya forms of writing.

Sanskrit is capable of wonderful and varied sound effects because of
the alternation of the softer sounds with the drumming effect of the
aspirated consonants.  There is therefore much scope for verbal melofy
of a rather harsh type.  It is like the Indian elephant with a heavy
plodding rhythm fo alternating cadences.  It permits the formation of
long compounds whose sounds are juxtaposed in extraordinary confusion
that requires a precise knowledge of grammatical rules to sort out.  To
the ear unattunated to its heavy cadences it would appear harsh and
lacking in sweetness.

Because of its extremely complicated grammar it is highly improbable
that Sanskrit was ever a widely spoken language, current among the
general populace, and some scholars are inclined to think that literaru
works in Sanskrit never had any real life at all, but were altogether
scholastic productions.  Much has been made of the incident recorded in
Patanjali's Mahaabhaashya, where a charioteer is represented as holding
a discussion in Sanskrit with a grammarian on the derivation of an
obscure word.  Charioteers were court bards and their familiarity with
the priestly tongue does not necessarily indicate an acquantance with
it on the part of the general public.

The man in the street did not understand Sanskrit, and those who wished
to reach the common people resorted to the Praakrit vernaculars.  When
Buddha preached his doctrine he advocated the use of dialects of the
common folk.  Asoka used the language and scripts current in his
domains to spread the Gospel of the Good Law.  Tulseedaas, great
scholar of Sanskrit though he was, preferred to write in the
vernacular, defending his wise choice with the statement that his
language was an earthen vessel containing ambroisa, while Sanskrit was
a jewelled cup of extreme beauty which held poison.  Kabeer, the great
reformer, likened Sanskrit to the water of a well, and the language of
the people to a running stream.  Indeed, it is difficult to imagine
that the artificial, stilted forms of Sanskrit grammar could ever have
been used as medium of popular expresion in India.  In his *Loom of
Language* Frederick Bodmer discusses Sanskrit in a chapter entitled The
Diseases of Language.

Modern Hindu reformers have frequently reiterated the same plaint, and
have advoacated the abandonment of Sanskrit as a vehicle of thought
expression.  As Raammohan Roy put it,

' The Sanskrit language, so difficult that almost a lifetime is
necessary for its acquisition, is well known to have been for ages a
lamantabel check to the diffusion of knowledge, and the learning
concealed under this almost impervious veil is far from sufficient to
reward the labour of acquiring it'.

Contemporary scholarship has given similar appraisal of Sanskrit and
the Sanskrit classics.  The Indian epics, the work of Kaalidaasa, the
aphorism of Bhartrihari, when they first became known to the West,
aroused tremendous interest, for they represented a huge corpus of
writings till then unknown to the Western world.  These and other works
even today 'keep alive a certain superficial sympathy for Indian
literature', as Max Muller expressed it; but the first flush of
enthusiasm has passed, and scholars have considerably revised their
opinion of its merits.  Primarily the early writings retain their
significance in the study of the history of mankind in the primitive
stages of its development, but it were rash to go further in extolling
their merits.  That great advocate of Sanskrit studies. Max Muller
declared. ' I do not claim for the ancient Indian literature any more
that I should willingly concede to the fables and traditions and songs
of savage nations.  I simply say that in the Veda we have a nearer
approach to a beginning, and an intelligent beginning, than in the wild
invocations of the Hottentotes and Bushmen'.  Serious students 'while
gladly admitting their claim to be called pretty attractive, could not
think of allowing Sanskrit literature a place  by the side of Greek,
Latin, Italian, French, English or German'.  Harsh as this would appear
to be, current scholarship would not greatly modify this opion.

References (partial)

I. Chakravarthi, P.C. "The Linguistic Speculations of the Hindus", 1933.
II. Chandrasekaran, K. and Sastri, B. H. S. "Sanskrit Literature", 1951.
III. Frazer, R. W. "Literary History of India", London, 1898.
IV. Keith, A. B. "Classical Sanskrit Literature", 1924.
V. Keith, A. B. "A History of Sanskrit Literature", 1928.
VI. Krishnamachariar, M. "History of Classical Sanskrit Literature", 1937.

A few more of the references are on the next page which I did not photocopy.




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Thu Jul  2 16:41:17 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 11:41:17 -0500
Subject: my ignorance of Skt.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.980701224350.1979D-100000@tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040456.23782.16160090176991399926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Gaur bAhIkaH is taken as a derogatory comment meaning:  "The bAhIka (or
>bAhlIka, a resident of the northwestern region of this name) is [stupid
>like] a bull."  This is often cited as an example of gauNI lakSaNA.
>
So, as an example of a secondary/subordinate meaning, we should understand
"Panjabis [?] are dull like oxen" (or singular), rather than the pleonastic
(or tautological?) "oxen are oxen".  Is this correct? (I could not find
exactly this in Patanjali, but this seems to be the explanation in
ParibhASenduzekhara 15 -- is this correct?

Jonathan SILK

****Note New Email Address***:

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Fri Jul  3 01:50:15 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 17:50:15 -0800
Subject: G.B. Walker on Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040478.23782.3952776016668440804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to Meenan Vishnu for posting the long extract from G.B. Walker's _The Hindu World_. 

There is a review artilce written by the late Professor V. Raghavan on this book of Walker?s.  (I do not have the publication particulars handy. However, there are published bibliographies of Raghavan's writings. So it should not be difficult to locate the review.)  Raghavan, to my mind at least, establishes that Walker's is a work based on a maliciously selective utilization of secondary sources (many of them outdated) -- that the author's/compiler's purpose is more to undermine Hinduism than to inform his readers about it. 

A couple of inconsistencies in Walker's statement on Skt have already been pointed out and attention has appropriately, albeit indirectly, been drawn to the volume _Ideology and Status of Sanskrit_ edited by Jan Houben.

The answer to the old question whether Skt was a spoken language obviously depends to some extent on how one defines Skt. (Did a significantly large number of people speak the language found in the long sentences of Baa.na's Kaadambarii or in the fully worked out p.rthvii-lak.sa.nas etc. of Navya Nyaaya? Obviously not.). However, there is no reason why, *for example,* the predominantly  post-Vedic language described by Paa.nini, or the language employed by the bards of the Mahaa-bhaarata or the language attested in Pata;njali's Mahaa-bhaa.sya cannot be called or Skt or could not have been spoken.  -- ashok aklujkar




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Thu Jul  2 19:32:12 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 21:32:12 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040458.23782.16812311331562643773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Meenan Vishnu wrote:

>The following article is taken from

>AUTHOR, ETC.: Walker, George Benjamin, 1913-
>TITLE: The Hindu world; an encyclopedic survey of Hinduism by Benjamin Walker.
>IMPRINT: New York, Praeger [c1968]

>(Typos are mine.)  Comments from Sanskrit fans/scholars welcome.

On the whole, I cannot escape the impression that many statements in the article are based on own ideas and wishful thinkings.

For example, the idea that

>and it has been pointed out by some scholars that teh syntax of Sanskrit, as od
>all other Aryan languages in India is fundamentally Dravidian rather
>than Aryan in character.

sounds strange to me. I tried to apply Generative Grammar principles to Classical Sanskrit (still further removed from Vedic), and it worked out very well. Sanskrit `behaves' in a similar way as Latin and Dutch. So, why a fundamentally Dravidian sanskrit structure? As I pointed out in my book `The Bhasa Problem, a statistical research into its solution', locatives can be raised to subject position in a passive context, whereas this is impossible in Indo-european languages, like Sanskrit. There only indirect and direct objects can be raised  thus, like in English, Dutch etc. Fortunately, Walker contradicts himself in the same article with the statement,

>Sanskrit thus had its roots in the decadent form of Vedic which gave it
>its structural core.  

?????????? What does he want to say?

By the way, the very word decadent does not please me. Maybe he has forgotten the wide-spread way of language evolution: say things in a much simpler way. That is how all modern languages evolved from the more complex classical languages. `Decadent languages' have developed other ways in order to express the same: word order, extra particles and indeclinables, more use of demonstratives and other pronouns, adverbs of time etcetera. That is not decadent, it is different. More suitable for its new environment.

>Because of its extremely complicated grammar it is highly improbable
>that Sanskrit was ever a widely spoken language, current among the
>general populace

But then the same accounts for Vedic, as this language is even more difficult (15 infinitives against only 1 in Sanskrit etc.). By the way, maybe the people, or the better educated people spoke some variety of Sanskrit, with `helper cases' (tale, madhye + genitive and the like), no aorists, shorter compounds. Exactly the same is true for Latin; they spoke a kind of vulgar Latin, quite similar to the church Latin. (as people go to churches to understand something, it is convenient to speak the same language in church as in school and at home; like Buddha with Pali).

By the way, some years ago there was a conference Status of Sanskrit in India on this matter; please contact Jan Houben, Leiden

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
the Netherlands
e-mail info at ticonsole.nl
http://www.ticonsole.nl/books/science/bhasa.htm
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 3072 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980702/c25605cf/attachment.bin>

From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  3 04:52:02 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 21:52:02 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040482.23782.16049758844014755570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

asti usenet-iti cyber-mahaa-loka.h |  tatra bhaarata-sa.msk.rti-
draavi.da-sa.msk.rti-vi.saya-vyavahaaraartha.m soc.culture.indian,
soc.culture.tamil ity abhidhau upalokau |  tayor upalokayor
miinanvi.s.nu ity aakhya.h ka;scit sva-naama-bhagavaan iva
sarva-vyaapii-iva lak.syate, iti bhaarata- (vi;se.satayaa draavi.da-)
cyber-jana-prasiddham |  miinanvi.s.no.h cyber-loka-vyaapakatva.m tv
atiprayatnena siddham |  tasya eko hi puru.saartha.h |  yac ca,
sama.s.titayaa sa.msk.rta bhaa.saayaa.h, vya.s.titayaa
bhagavad-giitaayaa.h ca aparatvam, a;suddhatvam, anarthakya.m,
nik.r.s.tataa, mohaandhakaarakatva.m ca vaktavya.m, punarapi vaktavya.m,
muhurmuhu.h vaktavya.m iti |  etat-kaama-siddhyartham yat ki.mcit
kartavyamasti tat sarvam kartu.m sa.h samutsuka.h |  miinanvi.s.no.h
usenet-nibandha-maale Benjamin Walker mahodayaanaam bahv-abhipraayaa.h
tatra tatra santi |  ida.m sarva.m Deja-News-muula.m atisulabhena
siddham |  Walker-abhipraayaa eva miinanvi.s.nv-abhipraayaa ity alam |

adhunaa usenet-cyber-loke na ki.mcit prayojanam ava;si.syate |  naiva
ka;scit vinodas tatra |  ye cyber-janaa.h usenet-loke carann aasann,
adya itara-cyber-loke.sv eva {W(v)i;sva-W(v)yaapii-W(v)itaane,
Indology-iva bahu mailing-list-loke.su ca} caranti |  tasmaat
miinanvi.s.nurapi usenet-lokaad asmat mailing-list-loke aagacchann, atra
sa.msk.rta bhaa.saayaa.h nindaa kartum icchati |  bahu-;siighrameva
bhagavad-giitaayaa.h nindaa ca kari.syati, asmin vi.saye'pi
Walker-pustakaad eva kecit abhipraayaa.h bhavi.syanti |  atra ka;scit
vyavahaara.h kartavya.h, tasmaat tasya abhipraayaa.h pari.nami.syanti,
iti cen na, mataantara.m ki.mcin na hi ;sro.syati sa.h |  tasmaat
vyavahaara-le;sopi vyartha.h syaat - etat gha.n.taa-gho.sa.h
;srotavya.h, mantavya.h, nididhyaasitavya.h ca (yaaj~navalkya.h
k.samyataam) |  Indology-;si.s.to'py astu, na ka;scit ;suna.h puccham
aku.tiliikartu.m ;sakyati, na vaa?

iti,
Vidyasankar

Gist of the above:- Indology ;si.s.tas will be wasting their time, if
they take Mr. Meenan Vishnu's current posting of extracts from Walker's
book seriously.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Thu Jul  2 21:15:13 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 22:15:13 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040476.23782.1086651485744635590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>[in Drav. langauges?] locatives can be raised to subject position in a
>passive context, whereas this is impossible in Indo-european languages,
>like Sanskrit. There only indirect and direct objects can be raised thus,
>like in English, Dutch etc.

Could you give some examples of this raising business?




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jul  3 02:58:21 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 22:58:21 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227040480.23782.8477989836260244250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To me it looks as if Fortunatov's law, if we take into account Levitt's
finding regarding the splitting of *l, is almost a restatement of Tamil
morphophonemic rules beginning with tolkAppiyam.

For the benefit of those interested, the relevant rules in tolkAppiyam are
given below.

tol.1.150,

la n2a en2a varUum puLLi mun2n2ar
ta na en2a varin2 _ta n2a AkummE

If t and n join l and n2, they (t and n) become _t and n2.

tol.1.151

Na La en2 puLLi mun2 Ta Na en2at tOn2_tum

(If t and n join)  N and L (t and n) become T and N.

Other rules related to this discussion are tol.1.303, tol.1.333, tol.1.367,
tol.1.397, tol.1. 399. One can find a discussion of these rules in "The
Alternation of r and l in Dravidian" by Stephen Hillyer Levitt in Indian
Linguistics, Vol. 50, 1989, p.131-147.

Since Levitt does not connect these rules with Fortunatov's Law, he does not
discuss rule 151.

But he does say, "While this paper does not try to deal in full with the split
in Dravidian which has been referred to here, it should also be noted in this
context in passing that this split is also paralleled in Indo-Aryan by such
interchanges which occur in Pali and the Prakrits as between D, L and l."

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jul  3 05:21:06 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 01:21:06 -0400
Subject: Correction to Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227040484.23782.698460811730076679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-07-02 22:59:20 EDT,I wrote:

<< But he does say, "While this paper does not try to deal in full with the
split
 in Dravidian which has been referred to here, it should also be noted in this
 context in passing that this split is also paralleled in Indo-Aryan by such
 interchanges which occur in Pali and the Prakrits as between D, L and l.
 >>

Sorry, some words were left out in the above. Here is the full text.

But he does say, "While this paper does not try to deal in full with the split
 in Dravidian which has been referred to here, it should also be noted in this
 context in passing that this split is also paralleled in Indo-Aryan by such
 interchanges which occur in Pali and the Prakrits as between D and l as well
as between r and L and by occasional alternation in Old Indo-Aryan forms
between D, L and l."

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul  3 06:28:35 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 07:28:35 +0100
Subject: An old question (was Re: G.B. Walker on Sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227040487.23782.469983449868342378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ashok Aklujkar wrote:

> The answer to the old question whether Skt was a spoken language obviously
> depends to some extent on how one defines Skt. (Did a significantly large
> number of people speak the language found in the long sentences of Baa.na's
> Kaadambarii or in the fully worked out p.rthvii-lak.sa.nas etc. of Navya
> Nyaaya? Obviously not.). However, there is no reason why, *for example,* the
> predominantly  post-Vedic language described by Paa.nini, or the language
> employed by the bards of the Mahaa-bhaarata or the language attested in
> Pata;njali's Mahaa-bhaa.sya cannot be called or Skt or could not have been
> spoken.

Do you equate "spoken language" with "language having *native*
speakers"?




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul  3 06:28:44 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 07:28:44 +0100
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040489.23782.14140032488623754480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I personally think it is more interesting to ask when Sanskrit
ceased to have native speakers, not when it ceased to be "spoken"
(which incidentally may mean a number of different things)

Or rather: "During which periods did it have have native speakers?"

(Since examples of languages which ceased to have native speakers
and then later started to have native speakers again are rare but
not unknown that leaves that possibility open. Of course I don't
know and I'm not implying that anyone has argued that in the case
of the Vedic/Skt. continuum)

Another question one can ask is whether the liguistic processes
which led to the evolution of Classical Skt. from Vedic Skt. are
are the kind of processes normally exhibited in "normal" first
(native) language transmission.

(Whether Ashok Aklujkar makes that distinction in his quick answer
to the old question  and whether we'll know I don't know but I do
think it is a useful one to make)




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Fri Jul  3 07:37:14 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 09:37:14 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040493.23782.646341694935906509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>[in Drav. langauges?] locatives can be raised to subject position in a
>passive context, whereas this is impossible in Indo-european languages,
>like Sanskrit. There only indirect and direct objects can be raised thus,
>like in English, Dutch etc.

>Could you give some examples of this raising business?

I don't know what your knowledge on generative grammar business is, but let's assume it's almost zero, regarding your word `business'.

There are two options to analyse passive sentences: with raising and with movements. If you are fond of Deep Structures, both are an option, if you prefer Surface Structures only, only movements are an option. Maybe I should have given here the term movements or move-x instead of raising. But that are matters of definition (plus a bit more).

Active:

John gave a book to Mary
SU - verb - DO - IO

Passive

A book was given to Mary by John
Mary was given a book by John

You see, both original objects can occupy subject position. This is a common phenomenon in a number of IE languages (English, Sanskrit) and non-IE languages (Japanese), but not all languages. All languages permit DO to SU.

Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, German, Dutch and non-IE Tamil, Kannada.

Examples:

Sanskrit

1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate

Japanese

1) john-ga mari-ni hon-o atae-ta
2) hon-ga john-ni (yotte) mari-ni atae-rare-ta
3) mari-ga john-ni (yotte) hon-o atae-rare-ta

Tamil

1) nAn avan-ukku oru pustukam ko.tu-tt-E.n
2) oru pustukam avan-ukku enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-atu
3) * avan oru pustakam enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-An

Hindi

1) mai.mne usko ek kitAb dI
2) ek kitAb usko mujhse dI gayI
3) * vah mujhse ek kitAb dI gaya

In Tamil some locative phrases can move to subject position in a passive clause.

Example

1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu
water - tank-LOC - fill-PAST
2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
tank me-BY water-WITH fill-PAST-PASS

More examples and ample discussion in

K. Rangan: `Some Problems in Tamil passive structures', Indian Linguistics 40-4:218-229

(and of course my own book `The Bhasa Problem etc.)

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
Netherlands
email info at ticonsole.nl
http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\bhasa.htm
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2656 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980703/32eac785/attachment.bin>

From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Fri Jul  3 07:45:50 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 09:45:50 +0200
Subject: webpage
Message-ID: <161227040491.23782.6267672093694935395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I apologize for my incorrect notation of the webpage where my thesis can be found. I hope not too many people tried in vain!

The only RIGHT address is

http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\linguist\bhasa.html

This should work.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
NL
info at ticonsole.nl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1295 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980703/3dec6237/attachment.bin>

From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Fri Jul  3 09:50:01 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 10:50:01 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <01BDA676.DE26D300@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040499.23782.3324549103754596677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, T.I. Console wrote:

> Mathieu Latapy informed me:
>
> >The folowing address, published on the Indology mailing list,
> >doesn't seem to work :
> >http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\linguist\bhasa.html
>
> I don't understand what is going wrong. It should work, as all
> directories fit. Nevertheless, it certainly (?) works when you only try
> http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books, and furtheron click through the pages
> till Bhasa.

Shouldn't you be using forward slashes ("/") instead of backslashes ("\")?

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Fri Jul  3 15:11:52 1998
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 11:11:52 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040504.23782.7721273625931050582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

@Jacob Baltuch wrote:
@
@>[in Drav. langauges?] locatives can be raised to subject position in a
@>passive context, whereas this is impossible in Indo-european languages,
@>like Sanskrit. There only indirect and direct objects can be raised =
@thus,
@>like in English, Dutch etc.
@
@>Could you give some examples of this raising business?
@
@I don't know what your knowledge on generative grammar business is, but =
@let's assume it's almost zero, regarding your word `business'.
@
@There are two options to analyse passive sentences: with raising and =
@with movements. If you are fond of Deep Structures, both are an option, =
@if you prefer Surface Structures only, only movements are an option. =
@Maybe I should have given here the term movements or move-x instead of =
@raising. But that are matters of definition (plus a bit more).
@
@Active:
@
@John gave a book to Mary
@SU - verb - DO - IO
@
@Passive
@
@A book was given to Mary by John
@Mary was given a book by John
@
@You see, both original objects can occupy subject position. This is a =
@common phenomenon in a number of IE languages (English, Sanskrit) and =
@non-IE languages (Japanese), but not all languages. All languages permit =
@DO to SU.
@
@Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, =
@German, Dutch and non-IE Tamil, Kannada.
@
@Examples:
@
@Sanskrit
@
@1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
@2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
@3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate
@
@Japanese
@
@1) john-ga mari-ni hon-o atae-ta
@2) hon-ga john-ni (yotte) mari-ni atae-rare-ta
@3) mari-ga john-ni (yotte) hon-o atae-rare-ta
@
@Tamil
@
@1) nAn avan-ukku oru pustukam ko.tu-tt-E.n
@2) oru pustukam avan-ukku enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-atu
@3) * avan oru pustakam enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-An

      Why not the following?

      mErikku 'John'aal nUl kodukkappattathu.

      or

      mEri 'John'aal puththakkam peRRaaL(/peRRuk koNDaaL)

      If you want to use your example of tamil, the following appears
      okay.

      avanukku oru puththakam ennaal kodukkappattathu

      (sorry my transliteration scheme is not the same).
@
@Hindi
@
@1) mai.mne usko ek kitAb dI
@2) ek kitAb usko mujhse dI gayI
@3) * vah mujhse ek kitAb dI gaya
@
@In Tamil some locative phrases can move to subject position in a passive =
@clause.


     May be my examples fall under this category ?
@
@Example
@
@1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu
@water - tank-LOC - fill-PAST
@2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
@tank me-BY water-WITH fill-PAST-PASS
@
@More examples and ample discussion in
@
@K. Rangan: `Some Problems in Tamil passive structures', Indian =
@Linguistics 40-4:218-229
@
@(and of course my own book `The Bhasa Problem etc.)
@
@Sandra van der Geer
@Leiden
@Netherlands
@email info at ticonsole.nl
@http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\bhasa.htm


    C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Fri Jul  3 09:36:40 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 11:36:40 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040496.23782.2802264589768218764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mathieu Latapy informed me:

>The folowing address, published on the Indology mailing list,
>doesn't seem to work :
>http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\linguist\bhasa.html

I don't understand what is going wrong. It should work, as all directories fit. Nevertheless, it certainly (?) works when you only try http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books, and furtheron click through the pages till Bhasa.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2123 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980703/9299c7f3/attachment.bin>

From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jul  3 16:38:09 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 12:38:09 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit, centamiz, and diglossia
Message-ID: <161227040507.23782.49432717385161470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a posting entitled "Concept of text and its ramifications for Indian pre-
history"
dated   04/06/97, I wrote:

<<This leads to interesting possibilities, was the concept of a refined/well-
made language, (and the associated concept of lower language), and
sophisticated grammatical analysis due to the Indo-European/Indo-
Aryan/Sanskrit genius per se? Or could they also be due to earlier impulses
which have also manifested in Dravidian/Tamil? Compare the parallels in
Sanskrit-centamiz, Prakrit-koTuntamiz, (the Tamil diglossia), the grammatical
traditions with meta-languages as Sanskrit and Tamil, the importance of
grammar for the Jains as evidenced by Tamil tradition, etc.>>

The recent examination on the origin of retroflexion in IA as governed by the
Fortunatov's Law and the corresponding rules of Tamil tolkAppiyam raise some
interesting possibilities regarding the role of a standard/higher language and
colloquial/lower language in India.

The Tamil grammatical tradition seems to be more realistic in terms of
accepting language change (than the Sanskrit tradition) while giving
importance to a standard/high form also. It is because of that Fortunatov's
Law's implications are very interesting. In essence, Fortunatov's Law applies
to what would have happened in the colloquial language. The fact that even
today, the split of *l into l and L is far less frequent in Tamil than the
occurrence of retroflexion satisfying Fortunatov's law in IA means that
tolkAppiyar was realistically portraying the situation prevailing at his time.
(In other words, it was not such a big issue and so he was justified in not
explicitly addressing it.) The split of *l into l and L occurs in colloquial
language.

This means that in the so-called IA north of pANini and earlier, the
standard/high language had been developed on the basis of colloquial forms.
(To me this corroborates Ashok Aklujkar's view of Sanskrit being a spoken
language, mentioned in a different thread.) But the maintainers of this
standardization were far less willing to concede the changing nature of the
language once a standardization had taken place. This may have to do with the
northern religious doctrine of eternality of Sanskrit as discussed by
Deshpande  in his Sanskrit and Prakrit as opposed to the concept of a more
secular view of the language in the Tamil south.

This leads to an interesting contrast with respect to the Fortunatov's Law.
The Sanskrit of pANini said to be of 4th or 5th century BC reflects a language
which seems to have gone farther along the road of language change. But
tolkappiyam said to be of 1st or 2nd century BC reflects a language which has
preserved the phonemes (under discussion here) better. We should also consider
the fact that the correct pronunciation of Sanskrit was vested with religious
merit, but the correct pronunciation of Tamil did not have any such religious
association. These suggest to me that the tradition of deliberate fostering of
a standard/higher form of a language must have been pre-Sanskritic. During the
bilingual (IA/Dravidian) period of north India, as linguistic identity was
being switched from Dravidian to IA among the literates, the connection with
the original standard/high Dravidian language must have been severed. This
probably led to more tolerance for retroflexion (satisfying Fortunatov's law)
to become widely accepted. Then when standardization of Sanskrit tookplace,
these retroflexes became part of the standard language.

A person arguing for the origin of retroflexion within IE/IA may attempt to
say that what I have said shows that retroflexion is not borrowed from
Dravidian. That will not be true because of the lack of durable retroflexion
in Indo-Iranian or other IE languages.  Fortunatov's law seems to be
applicable to the splitting of Dravidian *l which can be seen in the
colloquial variety of Tamil. So, I would rather attribute the prevalence of
retroflexion satisfying Fortunatov's law in IA  to the elevation of colloquial
forms to a standard/higher form rather than a continuance of original
indigenous IA heritage.

What do the Sanskrit scholars think?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  3 20:00:26 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 13:00:26 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040514.23782.9467934901921506447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>[in Drav. langauges?] locatives can be raised to subject position in a
>>passive context, whereas this is impossible in Indo-european
languages,
>>like Sanskrit. There only indirect and direct objects can be raised =
>thus,
>>like in English, Dutch etc.
>

and, later,

>
>Example
>
>1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu
>water - tank-LOC - fill-PAST
>2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
>tank me-BY water-WITH fill-PAST-PASS
>

My knowledge of the grammar of my own mother-tongue is minimal, so I'll
ask the following questions, even if all this is too elementary.

Is 1) considered to be an active construction in Tamil? If so, it
doesn't presume another agent, does it? It seems to me that sentence 2)
is not the true passive form of 1). It relies on an additional agent,
denoted by enn-Al in the passive construction. Another form would be

2a) to.t.ti ta.n.nIr-(in)Al nirampiyatu/nirampi.r.ru.

However, if 1) is an active construction, so is 2a), and the locative
phrase from 1) has still moved to subject position in 2a).

Secondly, if 1) is not an active construction in Tamil, the comparison
is somewhat confusing. The equivalent English sentences are -

A. Water was filled in the tank.
B. The tank was filled with water.

A and B are both passive constructions, but the locative phrase in A has
been moved/raised to subject position in B. But isn't this supposed to
be impossible in IE languages?

Or is it that in IE languages, a locative phrase in an *active*
construction does not become subject in a *passive* construction? E.g.,

A1. The revolutionaries dumped tea into the ocean.
B1. Tea was dumped by the revolutionaries into the ocean.

Clarifications welcome,
Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Fri Jul  3 11:06:24 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 13:06:24 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040502.23782.6469478141970279349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Smith wrote:

>Shouldn't you be using forward slashes ("/") instead of backslashes ("\")?

Of course! I always mix these slashes up, as I work on four different computers, all with a different keyboard layout.

The address then should be:

http://www.ticonsole/books/science/index.htm

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
NL
info at ticonsole.nl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1370 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980703/b6bd2508/attachment.bin>

From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Fri Jul  3 17:52:02 1998
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 13:52:02 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040509.23782.15093372446676681216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

*[..]
*@Active:
*@
*@John gave a book to Mary
*@SU - verb - DO - IO
*@
*@Passive
*@
*@A book was given to Mary by John
*@Mary was given a book by John
*@
*@You see, both original objects can occupy subject position. This is a =
*@common phenomenon in a number of IE languages (English, Sanskrit) and =
*@non-IE languages (Japanese), but not all languages. All languages permit =
*@DO to SU.
*@
*@Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, =
*@German, Dutch and non-IE Tamil, Kannada.
*@
*@Examples:
*@
*@Sanskrit
*@
*@1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
*@2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
*@3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate
*@
*@Japanese
*@
*@1) john-ga mari-ni hon-o atae-ta
*@2) hon-ga john-ni (yotte) mari-ni atae-rare-ta
*@3) mari-ga john-ni (yotte) hon-o atae-rare-ta
*@
*@Tamil
*@
*@1) nAn avan-ukku oru pustukam ko.tu-tt-E.n
*@2) oru pustukam avan-ukku enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-atu
*@3) * avan oru pustakam enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-An
*
*      Why not the following?
*
*      mErikku 'John'aal nUl kodukkappattathu.
*
*      or


               I think even the following would be okay ( although
               would not be preferred):

               'Mary' ennaal nUl kodukkappattaaL.

               Consider other examples of the following type
               which are more realistic:

                'Mary' ennaal uNavu(/paricu) aLikkappattaaL
                (Active: naan 'Mary'kku uNavu(/paricu) aLiththEn)

                 DO as SU : uNavu ennaal 'Mary'kku aLikkappattathu.

                [uNavu = food
                 paricu = prize
                 aLi (verb) = give ( kindly/with love) ]


*
*      mEri 'John'aal puththakkam peRRaaL(/peRRuk koNDaaL)
*
*      If you want to use your example of tamil, the following appears
*      okay.
*
*      avanukku oru puththakam ennaal kodukkappattathu
*
*      (sorry my transliteration scheme is not the same).
*@
*@Hindi
*@
*@1) mai.mne usko ek kitAb dI
*@2) ek kitAb usko mujhse dI gayI
*@3) * vah mujhse ek kitAb dI gaya
*@
*@In Tamil some locative phrases can move to subject position in a passive =
*@clause.
*
*
*     May be my examples fall under this category ?
*@
*@Example
*@
*@1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu
*@water - tank-LOC - fill-PAST
*@2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
*@tank me-BY water-WITH fill-PAST-PASS
*@
*@More examples and ample discussion in
*@
*@K. Rangan: `Some Problems in Tamil passive structures', Indian =
*@Linguistics 40-4:218-229
*@
*@(and of course my own book `The Bhasa Problem etc.)
*@
*@Sandra van der Geer
*@Leiden
*@Netherlands
*@email info at ticonsole.nl
*@http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\bhasa.htm
*
*
*    C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar

C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul  3 20:48:50 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 21:48:50 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040512.23782.13286494036008421469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>>[in Drav. langauges?] locatives can be raised to subject position in a
>>passive context, whereas this is impossible in Indo-european languages,
>>like Sanskrit. There only indirect and direct objects can be raised thus,
>>like in English, Dutch etc.
>
>>Could you give some examples of this raising business?
>
>I don't know what your knowledge on generative grammar business is, but
>let's >assume it's almost zero, regarding your word `business'.

Thank you for your detailed answer to my question.

Sorry for the "business" business. It wasn't meant to be derogatory. It's
just that you seemed to be saying that raising of indirect *and* direct
objects was possible in all IE languages. Since that is obviously not
true I wasn't sure anymore that I knew what you were talking about.

Regarding your Sanskrit example: if pushed I would have probably guessed
that Sanskrit does not allow indirect objects to be raised to subject,
since I'd never have thought of the passive of the *causative*, but you
make an ingenious use of it, although it is not completely clear to me.

>1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
>2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
>3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate

I'd always thought the meaning of (3) was "N. is made to give a book by R."
(passive of "raamaH naalaM pustakaM daapayati" or "raamaH naaleNa pustakaM
daapayati", i.e. "R. makes/has N. give a book").

I could also understand something like "pustakaM raameNa nalaaya daapyate"
to mean  "a book is is made to be given to N. by R." or even I guess I could
maybe try to understand it, thru some specialization of meaning (where the
action producing the giving of a book to N. could be restricted simply to the
action of giving it to N.) to mean "a book is given to N. by R." (in other
words as synonymous to (2), i.e. to its simple non-causative counterpart --
but only maybe?)

But "nalo raameNa pustakaM daapyate" in the meaning of "N. is given a book
by R." with the crucial raising of the indirect object to the subject position
entirely stumps me.

I would really appreciate if you or any of the ziSTaas on the list (to use
an expression that's becoming traditional here) would enlighten me.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul  3 21:56:41 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 22:56:41 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040516.23782.16085590958912112562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Regarding my question to Sandra van der Geer on her examples
of indirect object to subject, what do she and others think
of the following examples:

indraayudhaM na kasya cid darzayati
              '(he) does not show the rainbow to anyone'
indraayudhaM na kaz cid darzyate
              as 'no one is shown the rainbow'?

aabharaNaM suutasyaa \rpayati
              '(he) hands over his insignia to his driver'
aabharaNaM suuta arpyate
              as 'the driver is handed over the insignia'?

(Both (pairs of) examples are with causatives which have
lost their causative meaning. The active examples I know
they're good. It's the passive examples I'm asking about)




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul  3 22:07:02 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 23:07:02 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040518.23782.18215216132530587778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar wrote:

> A1. The revolutionaries dumped tea into the ocean.
> B1. Tea was dumped by the revolutionaries into the ocean.

to which I add

  C1. The ocean was dumped tea into by the revolutionaries.

Why is that *not* a raising (or move-alpha or whatever) of
the locative to a subject position?

Is it simply that it is not correct English? (not such a
far-fetched option :-) or is there some other reason...?

(Ok, that's English but what the hell, if the principle
is operational in Sanskrit and an English example can
help clarify it, wouldn't you say that it becomes ok
on an Indological list?)

> Clarifications welcome

You can say that again :-)




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul  3 23:16:46 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 00:16:46 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040522.23782.366971230962835184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>The address then should be:
>
>http://www.ticonsole/books/science/index.htm

That ain't gonna work either because the correct URL is

    http://www.ticonsole.nl/books/science/index.htm

(See if you can spot the difference. Hint: what country is
that web server located in? :-)




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sat Jul  4 16:06:53 1998
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 09:06:53 -0700
Subject: Web site
In-Reply-To: <01BDA676.DE26D300@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040527.23782.13295332515130265956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Mathieu Latapy informed me:
>
>>The folowing address, published on the Indology mailing list,
>>doesn't seem to work :
>>http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\linguist\bhasa.html
>
>I don't understand what is going wrong.

I have not checked this Web site out. However, I believe the correct Url
should be as follows:

http://www.ticonsole.nl/books/science/linguist/bhasa.html


Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From thompson at JLC.NET  Sat Jul  4 18:10:09 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 14:10:09 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040530.23782.7825414054639631850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My apologies for not responding earlier. During his last series of storms,
very violent things they were, Indra struck my modem with his vajra, and
utterly destroyed it [I don't know what sins I may have committed against
him, but be assured that I have been performing all of the relevant
prAazcittas]. I am only now starting to get myself back on track [I've also
switched from Mac to Windows 95: not as easy as I had hoped].

Perhaps a Dravidianist will step in and help me, but in the meantime here
is a response to Vidhyanath Rao's observations:

>How did the bilingual children cause the splitting of `n'? In
>Dravidian, dental and alveolar n's are allophones of the same phoneme,
>contrasted with the retroflex. To judge by the situation in South
>Dravidian languages, dental n occurs word initially and before dental
>stops, alveolar n elsewhere. It does not matter whether you posit
>bilingual children or pidgins or creoles. Why would they split what is
>one phoneme in >both< languages involved, while preserving the dental
>where it could not occur in Dravidian?
>
I don't see the problem here. Retroflexes, alveolars, and dentals, at least
phonetically, are nothing but a series of gradients formed by contact of
the tongue to various points along the roof of the mouth, ending at the
teeth [or, if you will, the root of the teeth]. In proto-Indo-Iranian what
we call dentals could have been formed by contact of the tongue with a
relatively wide range of points, well into the range that we would call
alveolar. Articulation at the extremes of this spectrum may have seemed
unusual pronunciation, but since there was no phonemic opposition, such
variation would not have caused any significant disturbance to the system.

But when even rudimentary contact first occurred between IA speakers and
Dravidian speakers, IA speakers must have quickly noticed that Dravidian
speakers observed a phonemic distinction between dentals-alveolars on the
one hand and retroflexes on the other. Such recognition, in my view, would
have been enough to trigger a similar though not necessarily an identical
segmentation in their own language [that is, in their own phonemic system].

Bilingual speakers work with two phonemic systems. Prolonged contact
between two phonemic systems will inevitably lead to some amount of
convergence, I think. But the two systms will remain distinct. So the
different sorts of permitted segmentations that one sees in IA and in
Dravidian would not have been a problem. Bilinguals switch back and forth
like this all the time. This is not a problem. One expects the two systems
to remain distinct.

>And finally, a practical question: What did the children speak to their
>parents? IA to one and Dravidian to another? In such cases, as long as
>given person speaks the same language to the child at all times, modern
>research indicates that the child will pick up both languages well,
>speaking exactly like their model.

I think that they probably spoke both to both parents [both of whom became
increasingly bilingual themselves, of course], depending on context. I
assume that extensive bilingualism gradually increased as IA speakers
migrated deeper into the subcontinent. As far as I can tell, there is
little disagreement that eventually there was extensive convergenece
between Dravidian and IA [which is why we can now talk about a South Asian
linguistic area]. The real dispute, it seems to me, revolves around *when*
this convergence is assumed to have taken place, not *whether* it took
place. Perhaps V. Rao and I actually agree in this sense: significant
convergence may have been relatively late.

As the list well knows, Michael Witzel has been working on identifying with
greater precision the many stages of development of Vedic language as well
as Vedic culture. He informs me that he has measured increasing
retroflexion as we move from the family books of the RV to the later books.
It is reasonable to assume that future research will disclose other
evidence, syntactic and lexical, of the sort of convergence that we are
talking about. In any case, I think that the issue of *when* retroflexion
became a phonemic process in IA is still an open one. Early Vedic does not
seem to present a lot of evidence for convergence with Dravidian. As far as
I can tell, Deshpande's thesis remains viable, though certainly I would
agree with V Rao that it is open to debate.

>This is likely to be the explanation for the AA passage mentioned
>elsewhere: If the pronunciation mo-Su-NaH was limited to rcs, while in
>ordinary speech people said mo-su-naH, then the point would have been to
>preserve the original pronunciation instead of using the daily
>pronunciation.
>
Agreed. But the saMhitA text represents "the original pronunciation" only
within the context of surviving Vedic traditions of recitation [and who
knows what the recensions that we have lost read?]. Diachronically, the
reading mo-Su-NaH is clearly *later* than the "daily pronunciation"
mo-su-naH. It seems to me that those who objected to the retroflexed
version were objecting to a mechanical recitation tradition that differed
significantly from standard daily usage [i.e., . According to Deshpande the
Ur-RV had 'mo-su-naH', rather than what has been handed down in zAkalya's
recension. This still makes sense to me. Why assume that the zAkalya
recension represents the Ur-RV?

V. Rao continues:

>But many of these features don't appear till much later than RV. On the
>other hand, retroflexion goes back much further. In fact, in RV there
>is less difference between internal sandhi and external sandhi in this
>matter. How do you explain this? [This is also one of Hock's objections.]

Again, I think we may be talking about a recitation tradition, not a
linguistic one.

Enough for now. More later, if there is interest.

George Thompson

p.s. Would Indologists really prefer to see this sort of discussion removed
to an Indo-Iranian list?




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jul  5 00:39:06 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 17:39:06 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040547.23782.9456682902706034300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wrote:

>asti usenet-iti cyber-mahaa-loka.h |  .......

A belated postscript - pardon the grammatical errors in the passage.
Having lived in LA for some time, my language is like, bad, hmm
whatever. But I thought, like, Sanskrit in normal speech and writing?
and then I went, why not?, and like, ....

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Sat Jul  4 17:48:12 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 17:48:12 +0000
Subject: [Q] "I love you" (in Sanskrit, Tamil, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.980611130528.50913E-100000@link-1.ts.bcc.ac. uk>
Message-ID: <161227040524.23782.9841089747961006750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

while reading one KuRaL distich that contains
the love utterance <<vERu allam>>  "we are not distinct",
I had the feeling that a possible unsophisticated translation
(for a 20th century reader ...)
might be "I love you". I don't think the lover should be
made into a philosopher saying "there is no duality
between you and me!".

So the question is:
 are there similar ways of expressing love feelings
 in sanskrit literature?

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)

P.S. The story runs as follows:
  1. He says to her <<vERu allam>>
  2. She believes him
  3. They are separated and she suffers

P.S. (2) The original KuRaL (1209) says (in Tamil):
 viLiyum en2 in2 uyir,
 "vERu allam" enpAr aLi in2mai ARRa nin2aintu




From hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM  Sun Jul  5 02:23:25 1998
From: hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM (Harold F. Arnold)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 18:23:25 -0800
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040549.23782.11100983767057516711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Or is it that in IE languages, a locative phrase in an *active*
>>construction does not become subject in a *passive* construction? E.g.,
>>
>>A1. The revolutionaries dumped tea into the ocean.
>>B1. Tea was dumped by the revolutionaries into the ocean.
>
>This is true. As you see in your example, ocean cannot be a subject in a
>passive construction.

How about: "The ocean had tea dumped into it by the revolutionaries?" "The
ocean" is clearly the subject here, but I won't even begin to try to
analyse the phrase "into it by the revolutionaries"




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sat Jul  4 19:25:09 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 21:25:09 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040534.23782.737664454528679973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote

>1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu
>water - tank-LOC - fill-PAST
>2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
>tank me-BY water-WITH fill-PAST-PASS
>
>
>Is 1) considered to be an active construction in Tamil? If so, it
>doesn't presume another agent, does it? It seems to me that sentence 2)
>is not the true passive form of 1). It relies on an additional agent,
>denoted by enn-Al in the passive construction. Another form would be
>
>2a) to.t.ti ta.n.nIr-(in)Al nirampiyatu/nirampi.r.ru.
>

Here you are right. 2 is not meant here as the exact passive copy of 1. In fact, your
sentence (2a) is a better example. In your example 2a, too, the locative phrase has been
moved to subject position.

>
>Secondly, if 1) is not an active construction in Tamil, the comparison
>is somewhat confusing. The equivalent English sentences are -
>
>A. Water was filled in the tank.
>B. The tank was filled with water.
>
>A and B are both passive constructions, but the locative phrase in A has
>been moved/raised to subject position in B. But isn't this supposed to
>be impossible in IE languages?

This is not the point, as 1) is an active consturction in Tamil. I wrote in a shorter notation here to save time and space on the web, but as you see, the contrary became true. I shoud have said PAST-PNG, or PAST with person-number-gender agreement. It's an active past tense.

>Or is it that in IE languages, a locative phrase in an *active*
>construction does not become subject in a *passive* construction? E.g.,
>
>A1. The revolutionaries dumped tea into the ocean.
>B1. Tea was dumped by the revolutionaries into the ocean.

This is true. As you see in your example, ocean cannot be a subject in a passive construction. In Dutch, it seems to be possible, but on closer look the verb then has changed to a medium like one:

1) hij wandelt op de straat
he - walks - on - the - street
2) de straat wordt bewandeld
the - street - is - walked on

That `bewandeld' is not a simple perfect passive form of the active `wandelt' in 1) is seen in the alternative active construction of 1) without the preposition:

1b) hij bewandelt de straat
he - walks on - the - street

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
NL
info at ticonsole.nl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2464 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980704/756d5ce1/attachment.bin>

From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sat Jul  4 19:31:35 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 21:31:35 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040532.23782.4919590626533752784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>indraayudhaM na kasya cid darzayati
>              '(he) does not show the rainbow to anyone'
>indraayudhaM na kaz cid darzyate
>              as 'no one is shown the rainbow'?

>aabharaNaM suutasyaa \rpayati
>              '(he) hands over his insignia to his driver'
>aabharaNaM suuta arpyate
>              as 'the driver is handed over the insignia'?

Both passive examples sound good to me, but I am not a sa.msk.rtabhA.savAdinI, so I'm curious if how more versatile Sanskrit speakers understand these pairs.

Sandra van der Geer
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1464 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980704/146c7dd0/attachment.bin>

From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sat Jul  4 19:39:55 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 21:39:55 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040542.23782.14319273279087420539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote

>C1. The ocean was dumped tea into by the revolutionaries.
>
>Why is that *not* a raising (or move-alpha or whatever) of
>the locative to a subject position?
>
>Is it simply that it is not correct English? (not such a
>far-fetched option :-) or is there some other reason...?

C1 is a bit theoretical; not used in `normal' BBC English. The reason of non-moving/raising etc. is the fact that the loc phrase should have been deprived of the element that makes it a loc phrase if it would function as a subject. In other words, the preposition `into' should be missing. Therefore, C1 is not exactly the same as A (the rev. dumped tea into the ocean) in Deep Structure. `into' in C1 behaves more like a verbal preposition. But this is highly theoretical, especially if we consider the nature of C1.

We're drifting away from the pre-colonial India

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
NL
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1756 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980704/1db07737/attachment.bin>

From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sat Jul  4 19:54:24 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 21:54:24 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040539.23782.5233886526234759716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann informed me

>Whenever I receive one of your postings to the Indology list it comes with
>an attachment.  I would imagine the same to be true for all subscribers.
>Could this be avoided?

But how? Does anybody know why there are attachments to my postings? I do not attach anything actively. I work on a NT Windows server, with the Windows Messaging. I write my postings with the Compose command (Reply to Sender), then I send it to outbox, and from there to the server. The attachment may be of the following character

Attachment Converted: C:\NETWORK\EUDORA\ReSansk3

Strange enough, when I receive my own posting from the indology server, no such attachment is seen! WHO does receive the confusion attachment, and WHICH specifications does his machine? If it is machine dependent at least.

Sandra van der Geer

(apologize in advance if an attachment is shown to this posting!)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1740 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980704/6b5c722c/attachment.bin>

From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Sat Jul  4 20:07:45 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 22:07:45 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040536.23782.4991744768823880173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>Regarding your Sanskrit example: if pushed I would have probably guessed
>that Sanskrit does not allow indirect objects to be raised to subject,
>since I'd never have thought of the passive of the *causative*, but you
>make an ingenious use of it, although it is not completely clear to me.

>1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
>2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
>3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate

>I'd always thought the meaning of (3) was "N. is made to give a book by R."
>(passive of "raamaH naalaM pustakaM daapayati" or "raamaH naaleNa pustakaM
>daapayati", i.e. "R. makes/has N. give a book").
>But "nalo raameNa pustakaM daapyate" in the meaning of "N. is given a book
>by R." with the crucial raising of the indirect object to the subject position
>entirely stumps me.

I do not know if you understand Dutch (I see you have .BE as country code), but maybe you understand 3) if I say

1) rama geeft nala een boek
rama - gives - nala - a book
2) een boek wordt door rama aan nala gegeven
a book - is - by rama - to nala - given
3) nala is een boek gegeven geworden (door rama) / gegeven doen worden
nala - is - a book - been given (by rama) / given cause to be

Here, the idea of dative-like subject is felt.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
NL
info at ticonsole.nl




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Sun Jul  5 03:42:52 1998
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 22:42:52 -0500
Subject: unintended attachments
Message-ID: <161227040551.23782.11755377883559308125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: T.I. Console <info at TICONSOLE.NL>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>Date: Saturday, July 04, 1998 3:07 PM
>Subject: Re: Sanskrit

>But how? Does anybody know why there are attachments to my postings? I do
not attach anything actively. >I work on a NT Windows server, with the
Windows Messaging. I write my postings with the Compose >command (Reply to
Sender), then I send it to outbox, and from there to the server. The
attachment may be >of the following character

Receiving a message as an "attachment" (without sending it that way) is a
function of both the senders and the receiver's email package. I use Outlook
express as part of Microsoft Explorer 4 and I do not have any problem with
your email, but I do receive some people's messages as attached text, often
in addition to having it in the message box.

You can try changing the way your email package encodes the message, there
should be several options. It may also have something to do with how your
server processes the message.

Claude Setzer




From emil.hersak at ZG.TEL.HR  Sun Jul  5 00:59:05 1998
From: emil.hersak at ZG.TEL.HR (Emil HERSAK)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 00:59:05 +0000
Subject: Indoiranian
Message-ID: <161227040544.23782.115515830891003157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Having heard about the indoiranian list from this list, can someone perhaps 
give me some instructions on subscribing to it?


           Emil HER?AK
Institut za migracije i narodnosti
10.000 Zagreb, HRVATSKA
email: emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr
http://public.srce.hr/~ehersak/




From msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL  Sun Jul  5 02:47:00 1998
From: msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Daniel Baum)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 02:47:00 +0000
Subject: Indoiranian
Message-ID: <161227040546.23782.5308161157945277674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Certainly, send a message to indo_iranian-subscribe at makelist.com , then
reply to the invitation it sends you back.

Daniel Baum,

Indo_iranian list owner.




From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP  Sat Jul  4 17:54:58 1998
From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 02:54:58 +0900
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040561.23782.1047375589044715635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van de Geer wrote:

> C1 is a bit theoretical; not used in `normal' BBC English. The reason of non-moving/raising etc. is the fact that the loc phrase should have been deprived of the element that makes it a loc phrase if it would function as a subject. In other words, the preposition `into' should be missing. Therefore, C1 is not exactly the same as A (the rev. dumped tea into the ocean) in Deep Structure. `into' in C1 behaves more like a verbal preposition. But this is highly theoretical, especially if we consider the nature of C1.
>
> We're drifting away from the pre-colonial India

If I may be permitted to drift off a bit more, and to also admit to my
utter ignorance of English grammar in the process, here's a simple
question: What precisely ensures that the locative or dative phrase is
in fact deprived of its defining element? Surely, the presence or
absence of prepositions cannot be the decisive criterion. Consider

(a) A friend gave the man a book.
(b) The man was given a book by a friend.

How do I know that "the man" in (b) does NOT function as a dative? In
the analogous German examples

(c) Ein Freund gab dem Mann ein Buch.
(d) Dem Mann wurde von einem Freund ein Buch gegeben.

this is easy to figure out because of the definite article "dem", (using
proper names
in the examples is not such a good idea, by the way, because this point
gets obliterated). So the question is: How can it be known that (b) is
not the exact syntactic equivalent of the German sentence (d), but
actually exhibits loc raising?

by the way, I also get attachments with all your postings; with filename
"part 1,2", and filetype "ms-tnef". I tried to open one of these as a
text-file; it just produces confused characters with "Microsoft Mail"
printed somewhere in the middle. I'm using Windows 95 with Netscape
communicator as e-mail software.

--
birgit kellner
department for indian philosophy
hiroshima university




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Sun Jul  5 10:59:25 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 11:59:25 +0100
Subject: passive of causatives (moving IO to SU in Skt)
Message-ID: <161227040553.23782.10899504864161923567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>>indraayudhaM na kasya cid darzayati
>>              '(he) does not show the rainbow to anyone'
>>indraayudhaM na kaz cid darzyate
>>              as 'no one is shown the rainbow'?
>
>>aabharaNaM suutasyaa \rpayati
>>              '(he) hands over his insignia to his driver'
>>aabharaNaM suuta arpyate
>>              as 'the driver is handed over the insignia'?
>
>Both passive examples sound good to me, but I am not a sa.msk.rtabhA.savAdinI,
>so I'm curious if how more versatile Sanskrit speakers understand these pairs.

Another pair which ought to be good (as it is given as an example in
a course),

 raamaM veedam adhyaapayati   '(he) teaches the V. to R.'
 raamo vedam adhyaapyate      'R. is taught the V.'

I hope there is no problem taking the accusative 'raamaM' as an *indirect*
objet of 'adhyaapayati'. The same could apply to the first pair since (as
far as I know) a construction with double accusative is in principle
possible for 'darzayati' and it becomes a matter of whether you wish to
see the passive sentence as the passive counterpart of the double accusative
construction or of the accusative and dative construction like I do above.
(Note: indirect object in the genitive also possible)

Btw, why Rama and Nala? Isn't it supposed to be Rama and Krishna? :-)

Also why John and Mary in the Japanese example???




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul  5 16:05:34 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 12:05:34 -0400
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040557.23782.815802722093974632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The reference to the facsimile of Bartolomei's Sanskrit grammar that Jacob
Baltuch requested is:

Paulinus a S. Bartholomaeo, Dissertation on the Sanskrit language. A
reprint of the original Latin text of 1790, together with an introductory
article, a complete English translation, and an index of sources by Ludo
Rocher. Amsterdam Studies in the Theory and History of Linguistic Science.
Series III - Studies in the History of Linguistics. Volume 12. (Amsterdam:
John Benjamins B.V., 1977)

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sun Jul  5 18:44:25 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 12:44:25 -0600
Subject: TolkAppiyam
Message-ID: <161227040559.23782.12500252708444818295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard posted a query on the date of Tolkaappiyam.

Sri. S. Vaiyapuri Pillai was a lawyer who started studying Tamil
on his own. He did not get an M.A or Ph.D in Tamil. His editings
from manuscripts are very good. He is very analytical; However his
dating of early Tamil literature have been questioned by his own students
who did PhD in Tamil or from Western scholars.

All the following quotes are from a recent book:
K. V. Zvelebil, Lexicon of Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1995

KZ in p. 732 writes:
"In some of his original works, he [S. Vaiyapuri Pillai] prob.
postdated earlier works of Tamil literature".

KZ in p. 705 on Tolkaappiyam:
"it may be earlier than the classical poems preserved in
the anthologies (J. Filliozat and P. Meile, L'Inde Classique II,
1953, p.97). Scholars pointed out differences between rules of
TolkAppiyam and actual linguistic usage of classical poetry.
It is most prob. that the earliest version, the oldest layer
of Tolkaappiyam is somewhat earlier than majority of
extant classical poems". ...
"The final redaction of Tolkaappiyam including PoruLatikAram
may be prob. fixed as 5th c. A.D. However, it is most prob.
based on much earlier Urtext representing a bardic
grammar of possibly pre-PaaNinian  Aindra school which could
be dated back as far as 100 B.C (or earlier?)"

Two papers that analyze the problems of S. Vaiyaapuriyaar's datings:
1. S. N. Kandaswamy, The Age of TolkAppiyam,
Jl. of Tamil studies, Dec. 1981, 20, p. 37-71

2. K. Sivathamby, Vaiyapuri Pillai as a literary historian of Tamil,
Sri Lanka Jl. of South Asian studies, 1 (New Series) 1986/87,
p. 80-104

Hope V. S. Rajam's dissertation is published.
What does she give as date of Tolkaappiyam. I am sure it
is ealier than SVP's 5th century AD.

V. S. Rajam, A comparative study of two ancient grammatical
traditions: The Tamil Tolkaappiyam Compared with the Sanskrit
Rk-Pratisakhya, Taittiriya-Pratisakhya, Apisali Siksa and
Astadhyayi, PhD doss., U. Penn., 1981

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Sun Jul  5 13:06:55 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 13:06:55 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit, centamiz, and diglossia
In-Reply-To: <6cf1fb36.359d08f2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227040555.23782.10560253315315157933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 12:38 03/07/98 EDT,
 vous (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>) avez ?crit :

>The Sanskrit of pANini said to be of 4th or 5th century BC reflects a
language
>which seems to have gone farther along the road of language change. But
>tolkappiyam said to be of 1st or 2nd century BC reflects a language which has
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>preserved the phonemes (under discussion here) better.

>

I would be interested to know on what basis
you give such an early date.

I have always thought that S.Vaiyapuri Pillai, editor
of Tamil Lexicon (1924-1936 & 1938-39) argued convincingly
that a big part of Sangam literature pre-dated Tolkappiyam,
(and not the other way round).

He proposes that what we have of Sangam litterature was composed
after the beginning of the Christian Era (and later collected
into anthologies) but that Tolkappiyam was composed
in the second half of 5th century CE.

I know he was somehow BLACK-LISTED in Tamil Nadu
for giving late dates to Tamil classics
[this infuriated some people:
see the introduction to NCBH revised edition (1988)
of his "History of Tamil language and literature" (1956)].

This black-listing may have been part of the reason for Zvelebil
proposing (in the Smile of Murugan, if I remember correctly)
that an Ur-Tolkappiyam  was composed very early
(at a date that might even agree with what you suggest)
while the Tolkappiyam as we have it now was composed
at a date that agrees with some of Vaiyapuri Pillai's arguments.
(As we say in French, I thought he wanted to please
"la ch?vre et le chou" [the goat and the cabbage]
at the same time)

I am personnaly interested in matters more a-temporal
(we do not need to know precisely when a text was composed
before we find it interesting or not ...)
but I know that chronology cannot be altogether ignored
(even though some questions can never be answered).
So I would be very glad to know what you find
most authoritative in recent literature
concerning the chronology of Tamil corpora of classical texts.

Best regards

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Sun Jul  5 23:04:50 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 15:04:50 -0800
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040570.23782.13117962830642716624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE>  asked with reference to an earlier posting by me: >Do you equate "spoken language" with "language having *native* speakers"?<

No. However,  I see no good reason to doubt either that Sanskrit was a spoken language or that it  had native speakers (and dialects).

(As indicated in my earlier posting, my understanding of "Sanskrit" in this context is the following: a language generally agreeing with Vedic but distinguishable from it (mainly because of loss and innovation in morphological categories and loss of pitch accentuation) and having a significant degree of affinity with the language described by Paa.nini (some features such as loss of older accentuation excepted) and generally employed in the later parts of the Braahma.nas (including the Upani.sads) and in much of the Mahaa-bhaarata, Nirukta, Kau.tiliiya/Kau.taliiya Artha-;saastra and Mahaa-bhaa.sya  -- that is, a language having features *shared* by the (sub)languages attested in the specified texts and texts similar to them.  In linguistic features, this language was not significantly different from the language found in the earliest available classical authors such as Kaali-daasa and A;sva-gho.sa, although it could take different forms depending on the genre in which it was employed.) 

(While the above understanding is not so rigorous as to be called a definition, I believe, it is justified by the first occurrences of "Sa.msk.rta" to refer to a language or language group (I have discussed these occurrences on pp. 70-71 of the volume edited by Houben). If someone successfully challenges my working definition or comes up with a significantly different and better definition, I must reconsider my view. I am quite willing to do so.) 

 I do not have time to present a detailed argument in favour of why I think Sanskrit had native speakers. Let me, however, mention that it seems extremely unlikely to me that there were no native speakers among or behind the bards to whom we can attribute those parts of the Mahaa-bhaarata (for example) which bear signs of oral poetry. Vocabulary development seen in agricultural terminology etc. or in secondary (taddhita) formations also frequently seems to be of such character and such spontaneity as we would associate with the existence of native speakers.  

Actually, I find the resistence to thinking of Sanskrit as a language with native speakers  puzzling (I do not mean to imply that Jacob Baltuch has displayed such resistence, but I have frequently encountered it in discussions elsewhere).  I wonder if this resistence would be there if it is not assumed, as it seems to be implicitly (and uncritically) assumed many times, that in the distant past too Sanskrit was a language only of brahmins. If we had thought of Sanskrit all along as a language that, at least in the B.C. period, more than one class in the society used, how far likely is it that we would have entertained the possibility of its being a language without native speakers? 

(The ancient literature clearly establishes that brahmins and k.satriyas spoke Sanskrit. If I recall correctly, vai;syas like saarthavaahas are also represented as speaking it. The evidence which establishes that ;suudras were presumed to understand it -- e.g.,  pratyabhivaade ';sudre in Paa.nini --does not prove that they spoke it but it at least makes the possibility that they -- some of them if you will -- spoke it more likely than the opposite possibility.)

Another factor in the resistence to thinking of Sanskrit as a language with native speakers could be the way it has been taught in the period in which the cultural background necessary for raising questions regarding its nativity took shape -- in which a historical study of it began and continues to be made (India uninfluenced by contact with the West does not have, as far as I know, notions such as maat.r-bhaa.saa or janma-bhaa.saa in the required sociolinguistic or historical sense). There has been so much emphasis on grammar in the teaching of Sanskrit during this period (this is not to say that the emphasis was missing in the earlier periods; but it existed then in conjuction with very different cultural elements and institutions) that many students have developed and continue to develop the impression that a language requiring so much mastering of grammar could not have been anyone's native language (it is not realised by many that children in different parts of the world still learn to speak languages that are at least as complicated as Sanskrit in grammar and that there is no reliable or scientific way of deciding whether a language is difficult or easy.) 

(I do not attach any particular cultural or historical value to a language having native speakers. I do not subscribe to an equation like' native = natural, therefore, superior.' A language having near-native speakers in large numbers can be more important in its cultural contributions than a language with native speakers or many languages with native speakers taken together).

In the preceding lines I have approximately indicated when and where, in my view, Sanskrit is likely to have been a  language that had native speakers. 

Jacob Baltuch asks another good question (thank God, not directed at me individually this time): >whether the liguistic processes which led to the evolution of Classical Skt. from Vedic Skt. are  the kind of processes normally exhibited in "normal" first (native) language transmission.< 

The answer would obviously depend on our being able to identify the latter processes and to reach a consensus about them. The problem of how linguistic change occurs and in what way it is related to language acquisition, particularly to first/native language acquisition, is far from easy to tackle. 




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Sun Jul  5 23:06:23 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 15:06:23 -0800
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040572.23782.11397235306581010511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson asked: >Would Indologists really prefer to see this sort of discussion removed to an Indo-Iranian list?<

No -- at least from this indologist (with a small "i"). Copy it if you wish to the Indo-Iranian list but please do not deprive the Indology list of the truly scholarly discussion that is taking place.

-- ashok aklujkar




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul  5 19:47:10 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 15:47:10 -0400
Subject: English in Re: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <359E6C72.662C6FB8@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <161227040562.23782.11283171600095476350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Birgit Kellner wrote:

>(a) A friend gave the man a book.
>(b) The man was given a book by a friend.
>
>How do I know that "the man" in (b) does NOT function as a dative? In
>the analogous German examples
>
>(c) Ein Freund gab dem Mann ein Buch.
>(d) Dem Mann wurde von einem Freund ein Buch gegeben.
>
>this is easy to figure out because of the definite article "dem", (using
>proper names
>in the examples is not such a good idea, by the way, because this point
>gets obliterated). So the question is: How can it be known that (b) is
>not the exact syntactic equivalent of the German sentence (d), but
>actually exhibits loc raising?

We can probably see that "The man" in sentence (b) does not function as a
dative, and that (b) is not the exact syntactic equivalent of the German
sentence (b) by substituting an appropriate personal pronoun for "The man":

(b') He was given a book by a friend.

By contrast, if we substitute an appropriate personal pronoun for "the man"
in (a), we get:

(a') A friend gave him a book.

or

(a'') A friend gave a book to him.

When we now look back at (a) and (b), it is easier to see that the dative
or indirect object "the man" in (a) is raised to nominative or subject in
(b).
(Please pardon some terminological imprecision here; it is years since I
have studied generative grammar, etc.).


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jul  5 22:57:53 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 15:57:53 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040578.23782.16935786178187047525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Elliot Stern <emstern at NNI.COM> wrote:

<I>Secondly, if 1) is not an active construction in Tamil, the
<I>comparison is somewhat confusing. The equivalent English sentences
<I>are -
<I>
<I>A. Water was filled in the tank.
<I>B. The tank was filled with water.
<I>
<I>A and B are both passive constructions, but the locative phrase in
<I>A has been moved/raised to subject position in B. But isn't this
<I>supposed to be impossible in IE languages?
>>
<der Geer>This is not the point, as 1) is an active consturction in
<der Geer>Tamil. I wrote in a shorter notation here to save time and
<der Geer>space on the web, but as you see, the contrary became true.
<der Geer>I shoud have said PAST-PNG, or PAST with person-number-
<der Geer>gender agreement. It's an active past tense.
>
>
>Before Vidyasankar Sundaresan's English example A becomes well
established
>in this discussion, I would like to question that it is an appropriate
>translation for 1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu. Rather, I
think
>the expected English translation for 1> is:
>
>A'. Water filled in the tank.
>

You are right. I did not give A and B as English equivalents of the
Tamil sentences unconditionally. It was prefaced with the clause, "if 1)
is not an active construction," etc. Since as the Tamil sentence,
"ta.n.nIr to.t.tiyil nirampiyatu" is in fact in the active voice, your
construction A' is correct.

>Further, while I would not go so far as to say that the passive
>construction translation in A could not occur, my feeling as a native
>Brooklyn, NY, USA speaker of American English is that it is somehow
wrong;
>I would probably understand A as a mistake for A'.
>

Well, I'm used to writing what can be called technical English writing,
using almost 100% passive sentences, for purposes of scientific
publications. I've probably seen and used hundreds of sentences like A.
To my ears, A conveys a different meaning from A'. "Water was filled in
the tank" implies that a human being did this action. "Water filled in
the tank" implies that this happened of its own accord, or due to
non-human agency, e.g. due to rain or some such reason.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul  5 20:09:21 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 16:09:21 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <01BDA798.97958CB0@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040564.23782.15279557317167535113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote
>
>>1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu
>>water - tank-LOC - fill-PAST
>>2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
>>tank me-BY water-WITH fill-PAST-PASS
>>
>>
>>Is 1) considered to be an active construction in Tamil? If so, it
>>doesn't presume another agent, does it? It seems to me that sentence 2)
>>is not the true passive form of 1). It relies on an additional agent,
>>denoted by enn-Al in the passive construction. Another form would be
>>
>>2a) to.t.ti ta.n.nIr-(in)Al nirampiyatu/nirampi.r.ru.
>>
>
>Here you are right. 2 is not meant here as the exact passive copy of 1. In
>fact, your
>sentence (2a) is a better example. In your example 2a, too, the locative
>phrase has been
>moved to subject position.
>
>>
>>Secondly, if 1) is not an active construction in Tamil, the comparison
>>is somewhat confusing. The equivalent English sentences are -
>>
>>A. Water was filled in the tank.
>>B. The tank was filled with water.
>>
>>A and B are both passive constructions, but the locative phrase in A has
>>been moved/raised to subject position in B. But isn't this supposed to
>>be impossible in IE languages?
>
>This is not the point, as 1) is an active consturction in Tamil. I wrote
>in a shorter notation here to save time and space on the web, but as you
>see, the contrary became true. I shoud have said PAST-PNG, or PAST with
>person-number-gender agreement. It's an active past tense.


Before Vidyasankar Sundaresan's English example A becomes well established
in this discussion, I would like to question that it is an appropriate
translation for 1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu. Rather, I think
the expected English translation for 1> is:

A'. Water filled in the tank.

Further, while I would not go so far as to say that the passive
construction translation in A could not occur, my feeling as a native
Brooklyn, NY, USA speaker of American English is that it is somehow wrong;
I would probably understand A as a mistake for A'.


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul  5 20:17:05 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 16:17:05 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <01BDA798.9FDE8570@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040566.23782.1969252183155706836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>Jacob Baltuch wrote
>
>>C1. The ocean was dumped tea into by the revolutionaries.
>>

[snip]

>We're drifting away from the pre-colonial India

Yes, that's probably so, as the tea dumped into the oceans by the
revolutionaries was should have been ground in China. :-)



Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul  5 20:26:02 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 16:26:02 -0400
Subject: Correction to English in Re: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <l03110701b1c5839f7221@[206.205.247.64]>
Message-ID: <161227040568.23782.9062241469705663609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please correct part of the text of my message *English in Re: Sanskrit*:
"the German sentence (b)" should read "the German sentence (d)". The
corrected passage follows:

We can probably see that "The man" in sentence (b) does not function as a
dative, and that (b) is not the exact syntactic equivalent of the German
sentence (d) by substituting an appropriate personal pronoun for "The man": ...

Thanks.


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jul  5 23:28:51 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 16:28:51 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit (corrections)
Message-ID: <161227040580.23782.8668195397679836894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Thanks to Tim Cahill for his offlist correction of "ground" to "grown".
He
>also notes that the revolutionaries dumped the tea into the harbor,
rather
>than the ocean. Finally, he says:  "And anyway, they were dressed up as
>Indians so there really *is* a connection". A rather loose connection.
:-)
>

Well, that's why I chose the sentence in the first place! Columbus
*was* searching for India, before he landed in the Americas. Also, in
case this is forgotten, Cornwallis was defeated in America, the colony
in the New World, but soon after this, he was posted to India, the
colony in the Old World. I've often wondered how different colonial
history would have been, if England had managed to hold on to the
American states.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul  5 22:16:01 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 18:16:01 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit (corrections)
Message-ID: <161227040576.23782.1415722559275977466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>Jacob Baltuch wrote
>
>>C1. The ocean was dumped tea into by the revolutionaries.
>>

[snip]

>We're drifting away from the pre-colonial India

Yes, that's probably so, as the tea dumped into the oceans by the
revolutionaries was should have been grown in China. :-)


Thanks to Tim Cahill for his offlist correction of "ground" to "grown". He
also notes that the revolutionaries dumped the tea into the harbor, rather
than the ocean. Finally, he says:  "And anyway, they were dressed up as
Indians so there really *is* a connection". A rather loose connection. :-)


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jul  6 01:07:03 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 21:07:03 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit, centamiz, and diglossia
Message-ID: <161227040582.23782.2816178090571639982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-07-05 07:08:20 EDT, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes:

<< I would be interested to know on what basis
 you give such an early date.

 I have always thought that S.Vaiyapuri Pillai, editor
 of Tamil Lexicon (1924-1936 & 1938-39) argued convincingly
 that a big part of Sangam literature pre-dated Tolkappiyam,
 (and not the other way round).

 He proposes that what we have of Sangam litterature was composed
 after the beginning of the Christian Era (and later collected
 into anthologies) but that Tolkappiyam was composed
 in the second half of 5th century CE.

 I know he was somehow BLACK-LISTED in Tamil Nadu
 for giving late dates to Tamil classics
 [this infuriated some people:
 see the introduction to NCBH revised edition (1988)
 of his "History of Tamil language and literature" (1956)].

 This black-listing may have been part of the reason for Zvelebil
 proposing (in the Smile of Murugan, if I remember correctly)
 that an Ur-Tolkappiyam  was composed very early
 (at a date that might even agree with what you suggest)
 while the Tolkappiyam as we have it now was composed
 at a date that agrees with some of Vaiyapuri Pillai's arguments.
 (As we say in French, I thought he wanted to please
 "la ch?vre et le chou" [the goat and the cabbage]
 at the same time)

 I am personnaly interested in matters more a-temporal
 (we do not need to know precisely when a text was composed
 before we find it interesting or not ...)
 but I know that chronology cannot be altogether ignored
 (even though some questions can never be answered).
 So I would be very glad to know what you find
 most authoritative in recent literature
 concerning the chronology of Tamil corpora of classical texts.

 Best regards >>


I think it is high time scholars gave a decent burial to SVP's date for
Tolkappiyam, for the following reasons. Since I have only access to his tamizc
cuTar maNikaL I am basing my arguments on that. I think the views of SVP found
in TCM are essentially the same as the ones in HTLL because Zvelebil, in his
discussion of the date of Tolkappiyam uses TCM as well as HTTL.

There are two relevant issues here. One is the relative dating of T with
respect to Classical Tamil texts and the absolute dating based on the relative
dating of T w.r.t to Patanjali.

1. In his discussions, whenever there is a similarity between a feature in
Sanskrit and Tamil, SVP assumes Sanskrit is the donor and Tamil the borrower.
Take for example the etymology of the word "mAlai" garland. In page 25, he
says it is borrowed from Sanskrit into Tamil. However, with their
comparative/historical linguistic perspective Burrow and Emeneau, in DED 3954,
derive it from Dravidian.

2. As for similarities between Tolkappiyam and any specific Sanskrit
Grammarian, there is a problem here as well. I do not have access to V. S.
Rajam's dissertation. But this is what the dissertation abstract says. "The
question of the relation of the first available Tamil grammar TolkAppiyam to
various Sanskrit grammatical works remains unresolved.
Divergent views proposing Sanskrit sources for the Tamil grammar and vice
versa have been expressed in the past by Western and non-Western scholars.
However, there is no single, comprehensive, systematic and unbiased study that
brings out the methodological differences or similarities between the grammars
of the two traditions-- Tamil and Sanskrit.
The present study ias an attempt in that direction, and it lloks at the
methods of grammatical description adopted by the authors of various
grammatical works representing the two traditions.....
The study shows that: (1) The TolkAppiyam and each one of the Sanskrit texts
considered here share some characteristics regarding their methods of
description. (2) There are also significant dissimilarities between the
methods  of grammatical description found in the TolkAppiyam and those of
Sanskrit works. (3) The Sanskrit works vary considerably among themselves in
their approach in describing Sanskrit. At the same time, they are not totally
divergent from one another.
Considering all this, this study proposes a 'galaxy model' for the ancient
Indian grammatical tradition. This 'galaxy model' considers the authors of the
unknown grammatical works as numerous unidentifiable stars and the authors of
the extant grammatical works as giant stars."

In short, there is no clear linkage between any one particular Sanskrit
grammarian and Tolkappiyam. Any resemblance between T and a Sanskrit
grammarian could be just due to the different grammatical traditions. Thus one
cannot really say anything about the relationship between T and Patanjali.
(For a related discussion see a post entitled Amazing Patanjali... last year.

As for the relative dating of T with respect to CT, Zvelebil's arguments are
logical as found in The Smile of Murugan, pp.142-143.

As for the 5th century date for T, SVP asumes the integrity of the whole text
which others do not. That itself opens a fatal logical flaw. For instance, he
considers the contents of the pAyiram as valid. In fact, he uses that to
establish that T is from the Travancore area. If we pursue that further, we
should accept that T was presented in the court of a Pandiyan king. If SVP's
date of 5th century is valid, then T was presented in the court of a Pandiyan
king of the 5th century. But there was no such king. That was the post-
classical period of the Kalabhra interregnum. There were no Pandiyan kings in
the 5th century. The first Pandiyan king after the kalabhras, kaTuGkOn2, came
to power in AD 560 according to K. A. Nilakanta Sastry ( A History of South
India, p.172).  That means the 5th century date SVP established based on the
latest of Natyasastra, Arthasastra, Manava Dharmasastra and Kamasutra's dates
is wrong. The only way to resolve is to allow for the possibility of
interpolations/additions to an earlier text. This is what other scholars have
done.

As for the reasons of using 1st or 2nd century BC for T in my discussion, KZ
says, "Thus, the nuclear portions of Tolkappiyam were probably born sometime
in the 2nd or !st Cent. B.C., but hardly before 150 B.C." (The Smile of
Murugan, p. 147). The nURpAs I discussed were in the first book of T and I
think they are generally considered to be part of the earlier text.

Interestingly, the later the date of Tolkappiyam is, the more valid my
argument for a strong tradition of a Standard/high Tamil becomes. If we take
SVP's date of 5th century AD, it means almost a millennium after pANini, Tamil
had still maintained the distinction between l and L rather successfully, with
deviations from the standard being discouraged on the whole quite well.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From mvishnu at FORE.COM  Mon Jul  6 01:20:55 1998
From: mvishnu at FORE.COM (Meenaradchagan Vishnu)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 21:20:55 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <v01530504b1c313237f82@[194.134.29.17]>
Message-ID: <161227040584.23782.6088829133069310552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'S Krishna' wrote:

> Sidestory: In the not-too-distant past, somebody ;-) quoted the Same Dr
> Walker about the deleterious effect that Samskrt had on other languages
> and asked Dr George Hart for his reaction.. Dr Hart's reply was that
> such ideas were decidedly fascist.

Please do not put words into others mouth.  Regarding post-brahmanical
revival period *Sanskrit Literature* (not language!!!), Walker wrote:

--begin quote--
Everything', says Sidhanta, ` is viewed from the angle of the priest,
and instead of a straightforward narrative, we have didactic digression
on the sanctity of the priestly class.' As Pargiter points out, ` The
brahminical versions are a farrago of absurdities and impossibilities,
utterly distorting all the incidents.'
--end quote--


and said:

--begin quote--
The period of Brahminical revival was the age that fixed the criterion
for every subsequent interpretation of Hindu life and culture. It was
the time when the ancient Indian traditions as they existed in the
regional languages were taken over, adapted to the priestly bias and
hammered into the new mould of Sanskrit. Into the sacred tongue the
earlier tomes wer transcribed for the deification of brahmins and the
damnation of sudras. Under heavy pressure of brahmin orthodoxy the
indigenous writings were first sanskritized and then the whole of
Sanskrit literature brahminized.

It was in many ways a calamitous substitute. Local nomenclature was
altered to fit the Sanskrit alphabet; native sentiments were put
through the mill of Sanskrit syntax, and a great deal of indigenous
material irretrievably lost.

Interpretations of pre-Sanskrit and what might be called `un-Sanskrit'
life were further distorted by wilful tendentiousness that shaped into
orthodox form the mythology, history and even the geography of ancient
India. Its corruptions crept into the regional languages by its
insistence on its own sanctity and stilted rules.

And in most cases it debased what it influenced. The noble early poetry
of Tamil, characterized by simplicity and realism, never recovered its
freshness after contact with Sanskrit, and Tamil literature was
thereafter subjected to the artificialities of the northern tongue.
Practically every vernacular after contact with Sanskrit, and Tamil
literature was thereafter subjected to the artificialities of the
northern tongue. Practically every vernacular literature has suffered
in like manner as long as it lay under the influence of Sanskrit
influence.
--end quote--

I asked Dr. Hart his opinions on the above assetions by Walker.
However, I do not recall Dr. Hart calling Walker's ideas a "decidedly
fascist"

FYI
Word: fascist
fas-cism \'fash-,iz-em also 'fas-,iz-\ n
[It fascismo, fr. fascio bundle, fasces, group, fr. L fascis bundle
     & fasces fasces]
(1921)
1 often cap :a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that
     of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual
     and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed
     by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation,
     and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial
     control <early instances of army fascism and brutality
     --J. W. Aldridge>
-- fas-cist \-est\ n or adj, often cap
-- fas-cis-tic \fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-\ adj, often cap
-- fas-cis-ti-cal-ly \-ti-k(e-)le^-\ adv, often cap

Meenan Vishnu




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Mon Jul  6 00:04:11 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 00:04:11 +0000
Subject: TolkAppiyam
In-Reply-To: <01IZ1IRFJK2Q00E9F9@cl.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040574.23782.6544493650074652180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 12:44 05/07/98 -0600,
vous ("N. Ganesan" <GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU>) avez ?crit :
>Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard posted a query on the date of Tolkaappiyam.
>

It would be good indeed to sum up the arguments
(or the bibliography about arguments) concerning the date
of Tolkaappiyam.

To say again (in short) how the initial query was formulated
(since we start under a new title), I shall quote my own arguments
and an extract from a posting by S. Palaniappan that gave
the initial impulse.

On 12:38 03/07/98 EDT,
 Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>) wrote:

<SP> The Sanskrit of pANini said to be of 4th or 5th century BC
<SP> reflects a language
<SP> which seems to have gone farther along the road of language change. But
<SP> tolkappiyam said to be of 1st or 2nd century BC reflects a language
which has
<SP>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<SP>preserved the phonemes (under discussion here) better.

And I (J-L. Chevillard) answered:


<JLC> I would be interested to know on what basis
<JLC> you give such an early date.
<JLC> 
<JLC> I have always thought that S.Vaiyapuri Pillai, editor
<JLC> of Tamil Lexicon (1924-1936 & 1938-39) argued convincingly
<JLC> that a big part of Sangam literature pre-dated Tolkappiyam,
<JLC> (and not the other way round).
<JLC> 
<JLC> He proposes that what we have of Sangam litterature was composed
<JLC> after the beginning of the Christian Era (and later collected
<JLC> into anthologies) but that Tolkappiyam was composed
<JLC> in the second half of 5th century CE.
<JLC> 
<JLC> I know he was somehow BLACK-LISTED in Tamil Nadu
<JLC> for giving late dates to Tamil classics
<JLC> [this infuriated some people:
<JLC> see the introduction to NCBH revised edition (1988)
<JLC> of his "History of Tamil language and literature" (1956)].
<JLC> 
<JLC> This black-listing may have been part of the reason for Zvelebil
<JLC> proposing (in the Smile of Murugan, if I remember correctly)
<JLC> that an Ur-Tolkappiyam  was composed very early
<JLC> (at a date that might even agree with what you suggest)
<JLC> while the Tolkappiyam as we have it now was composed
<JLC> at a date that agrees with some of Vaiyapuri Pillai's arguments.


Then you (N. Ganesan) added the following remarks

>Sri. S. Vaiyapuri Pillai was a lawyer who started studying Tamil
>on his own. He did not get an M.A or Ph.D in Tamil. His editings
>from manuscripts are very good. He is very analytical; However his
>dating of early Tamil literature have been questioned by his own students
>who did PhD in Tamil or from Western scholars.

I do not think that the fact of having a Ph. D (or being a professor)
is a good criterion for deciding who is right
(Moreover, what SVP did amounted to many PhD-s .... )
(Did UVS have a PhD?)

Also, having one's students disagreeing with oneself
is not a proof that one is wrong

Also, doing PhD from a western scholar
is not a "trait pertinent" in the same respect

>
>All the following quotes are from a recent book:
>K. V. Zvelebil, Lexicon of Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1995
>
>KZ in p. 732 writes:
>"In some of his original works, he [S. Vaiyapuri Pillai] prob.
>postdated earlier works of Tamil literature".

Note the "probably" in KZ's sentence. He is very cautious
because he knows how knowledgeable SVP was

>
>KZ in p. 705 on Tolkaappiyam:
>"it may be earlier than the classical poems preserved in

again, note the "may be"

>the anthologies (J. Filliozat and P. Meile, L'Inde Classique II,
>1953, p.97).

As a matter of fact, what Filiozat and Meile say in the book you mention
is the following:

<F&M> Par.1538. Grammaires tamoules. La plus ancienne grammaire tamoule
<F&M> est le _Tolkaappiyam_, litt?ralement l'<<Ancien po?me>> (_kaappiyam_
<F&M> = skr. _kaavya_) ou plut?t sans doute <<ce qui [concerne] les
<F&M> anciens po?mes>>. Elle ne peut malheureusement ?tre dat?e
<F&M> dans l'?tat actuel de nos connaissances....

[note that they say (in French) we cannot give a date]

<F&M> .......... La l?gende fait de Tolkaappiyar ......
<F&M> un disciple imm?diat d'Agastya ? qui toute science
<F&M> est cens?e remonter et qui serait d'une antiquit?
<F&M> prodigieuse. Le Tolkaappiyam serait alors ant?rieur ? tous
<F&M> les po?mes dont il aurait par avance fix? la langue ....

[1st possibility: T is very very old ... and predates
 the whole of Sangam literature]

<F&M> Tolkaappiyar [...] est dit (Pan2ampaaran2aar)
<F&M> <<s'?tre rempli de l'_Aindiram_>> (aintiram niRainta
<F&M> tolkaappiyan2), c'est-?-dire de la grammaire d'Indra.
<F&M> Il ne s'agit pas l? d'un ouvrage d?termin? ...
<F&M> Il s'agit en tout cas de la grammaire sanskrite,
<F&M> peut-?tre telle qu'elle est repr?sent?e par le Katantra
<F&M> avec lequel le Tolkaappiyam pr?sente des analogies (Burnell)
<F&M> En ce cas, le Tolkaappiyam serait largement post?rieur
<F&M> ? l'?re chr?tienne ....

[2nd possibility: T is much later than the beginning
of the christian era]

> .....   Scholars pointed out differences between rules of
>TolkAppiyam and actual linguistic usage of classical poetry.

What one can conclude from that discrepancy is not so clear.
Some people have noted that a particular dialect may have been
the substratum for T (Travancore, Kerala, ...?)


>It is most prob. that the earliest version, the oldest layer
>of Tolkaappiyam is somewhat earlier than majority of
>extant classical poems". ...
>"The final redaction of Tolkaappiyam including PoruLatikAram
>may be prob. fixed as 5th c. A.D. However, it is most prob.
>based on much earlier Urtext representing a bardic
>grammar of possibly pre-PaaNinian  Aindra school which could
>be dated back as far as 100 B.C (or earlier?)"

It is because of such statements by KZ
that I said in my former posting that
he wanted to please "la ch?vre et le chou"
[the goat and the cabbage] at the same time)


>
>Two papers that analyze the problems of S. Vaiyaapuriyaar's datings:
>1. S. N. Kandaswamy, The Age of TolkAppiyam,
>Jl. of Tamil studies, Dec. 1981, 20, p. 37-71
>

This paper starts with the statement:
<SNK> At the outset, we have to record that there are two extreme views,
<SNK> one of which pushes forth Tolkaappiyam to 5000 B.C. or even before,
<SNK> mainly basing on the strength of the fabulous account found
<SNK> in the commentary of _iRaiyan2aar kaLaviyal_, while the other
<SNK> drags it down to 500 A.D. chiefly claiming the influence of some
<SNK> Sanskrit works of a later period on some portions of Tolkaappiyam.

It would not be easy to sum up in this initial (and already long)
posting this paper that runs on 35 pages (JTS, Number 20,
december 1981, pp. 37-71). If this discussion goes on, it will be
good to refer to its arguments later.
I will now simply quote its conclusion, without trying
to evaluate it.

<SNK> ... it is proper to conclude that the major portion
<SNK> of Tolkaappiyam (say 90% or even more) should have been
<SNK> composed not later than 300 B.C.



>2. K. Sivathamby, Vaiyapuri Pillai as a literary historian of Tamil,
>Sri Lanka Jl. of South Asian studies, 1 (New Series) 1986/87,
>p. 80-104

I do not have access to this item. It would be could if you could
summarize its starting point and its conclusion.


>
>Hope V. S. Rajam's dissertation is published.
>What does she give as date of Tolkaappiyam. I am sure it
>is ealier than SVP's 5th century AD.

Just to give an approximation of what she may have written
in her dissertation (I have not seen it), this is what
she writes on the first page 7 [there is another page 7 later!],
inside her 1992 book (_A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry_
[150 B.C. -- pre-fifth/sixth century A.D.],
American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia, U.S. ISSN 0065-9738)

<VSR> Tolkaappiyam:
<VSR>   the first extant traditional grammar of Tamil; written
<VSR>   in Tamil and applicable to classical Tamil poetry;
<VSR>   pre-fifth century A.D.

>
>V. S. Rajam, A comparative study of two ancient grammatical
>traditions: The Tamil Tolkaappiyam Compared with the Sanskrit
>Rk-Pratisakhya, Taittiriya-Pratisakhya, Apisali Siksa and
>Astadhyayi, PhD doss., U. Penn., 1981

Yes! I would very much like to be able to read this !!

>
>Regards,
>N. Ganesan
>

I hope we can go on gathering the evidences as to what
the most consistent chronology is, that can be reached at
in 1998. This can go on at a slow pace of course. No need
to hurry, ca. 2000 years after the events :-)

Best regards.

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD




From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP  Sun Jul  5 20:22:03 1998
From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 05:22:03 +0900
Subject: Sanskrit & English (the end)
Message-ID: <161227040618.23782.9681449465407162246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to Jacob Baltuch, Sandra van de Geer and Elliot Stern for
removing at least bits of my ignorance about English datives.

Just a few minor points regards Sandra van de Geer's reply. Regarding my
English and German examples

>(a) A friend gave the man a book.
>(b) The man was given a book by a friend.
>(c) Ein Freund gab dem Mann ein Buch.
>(d) Dem Mann wurde von einem Freund ein Buch gegeben.

she wrote:

>In my opinion, b indeed is not exactly the same as d. But there is more: a is not the equivalent in meaning >of b, and c not
> of d. To stick to the German: `ein Freund' is not necessary the friend of the favoured man (`dem Mann'), > > while `einem
> Freund' sounds more like a real friend of the man in question (`dem Mann). You see, meaning has changed, so
> apparently the underlying structures differ a bit.

I agree that (a) and (b) are not equivalent in meaning, but the question
is whether that affects the syntactical point you are trying to
make. I shouldn't think so; it seems to me that all relevant differences
in meaning between these sentence-pairs can be explained pragmatically.
While these differences may affect other syntactic matters (though I
can't really think of any at the moment), they do at least not
affect the issue of dative raising. Also, for clarification, let me add
that I have no doubts whatsoever that dative raising does not work in
German; it was the English that I was confused about.

Lastly:

>e) Den Maennern wurden von einem Freund ein Buch gegeben.
>
> Ich denke nein. I think e) is not grammatical, while f) is:
>
> f) Dem Mann wurden von einem Freund einige Buechern gegeben.

> In f) the books (`einige Buechern') are the subject, in e) the man (`den maennern').

The correct form of f) is "Dem Mann wurden von einem Freund einige
Buecher gegeben" (that's "Buecher", not "Buechern").

Also, I think what you may have aimed at with your ungrammatical
sentence e) is the equally ungrammatical sentence

e') Die Maenner wurden von einem Freund ein Buch gegeben.

For if you say "den Maennern", the definite article in the dative case
already rules out that "maenner" is the subject. Yes, e) is
ungrammatical, but simply because the plural verb is off (if you correct
that to the singular "wurde", it becomes grammatical, with "ein Buch" as
the subject and the dative "den Maennern"); the problem of whether or
not dative raising is possible does not arise at all. That's because, if
I understand you correctly, dative raising requires that a noun is put
into the subject position AND that all markers of the former dative are
removed. Which in this case includes changing the definite article from
the dative "den" into the nominative "die". End of digression on how to
be correctly incorrect.

Anyway, my question is answered, and if it's fine with everyone, I
shall end this sub-thread now from my end, and withdraw into a dense
forest populated exclusively with English grammar books.

As for the attachment-issue:

> Is it possible that Netscape is the bad guy (in general, I am AGAINST Microsoft!), as I have a  friend who > also uses
> Netscape, and she, too, receives the attachments?

If Netscape receives something, something must be sent. Hence there must
be a sender of that something. Which could be either your computer or
your server. Also, I have so far never received attachments that were
NOT sent, but then again, maybe that was simply because noone bothered
to non-send them -:)

regards,
--
birgit kellner
department for indian philosophy
hiroshima university




From gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE  Mon Jul  6 08:04:17 1998
From: gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 09:04:17 +0100
Subject: tuebingen catalogue
Message-ID: <161227040588.23782.2338698906008025520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To all South Asia Scholars,
we are happy to announce that our Online-Catalogue has an English
interface now. Our library is a university library with the special
collection of South Asian books and periodicals. The catalogue
contains the libraries' books from 1980 onwards as well as the
very old books from 1500-1850. We are continually trying to fill in
the gap by converting the pre-1980 titles into machine-readable form.
Here's the URL:
http://opac.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/olix_.html

Greetings
Gabriele

----------------------------------------------------------
Dr Gabriele Zeller
Universit?tsbibliothek T?bingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
72016 T?bingen
Tel:+49-7071-2974030
Fax:+49-7071-293123

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub
----------------------------------------------------------




From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL  Mon Jul  6 13:04:49 1998
From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 09:04:49 -0400
Subject: unintended attachments
Message-ID: <161227040590.23782.13347052160293455649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:42:52 -0500 you wrote:

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: T.I. Console <info at TICONSOLE.NL>
>>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>>Date: Saturday, July 04, 1998 3:07 PM
>>Subject: Re: Sanskrit
>
>>But how? Does anybody know why there are attachments to my postings? I do
>not attach anything actively. >I work on a NT Windows server, with the
>Windows Messaging. I write my postings with the Compose >command (Reply to
>Sender), then I send it to outbox, and from there to the server. The
>attachment may be >of the following character

To all attachment-valas,
By default Outlook sends the text of an e-mail-message together with an RTF-file of the same as an attachment. You have to specify in your Adressbook for each entry that you do not want to send RTF format messages. Uncheck the box with this option. This is one of the ways Micro$oft makes you aware that you have not bought their stuff. I.m.h.o. Outlook is one of the worst e-mail clients around, most freeware programs such as Eudora Lite and Pegasus are much more easy to use.

Thomas de Bruijn




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Jul  6 13:23:25 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 09:23:25 -0400
Subject: R. E. Asher -Reply
Message-ID: <161227040604.23782.4111330793085010620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to the 1997 AAS Directory, Asher's address is:

Frederick M. Asher
Art History
University of Minnesota
107 Jones Hall
27 Pleasant SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455
off.  612-624-4500
res. 612-377-8809
fax   612-377-8965

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Mon Jul  6 16:46:38 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 10:46:38 -0600
Subject: TolkAppiyam
Message-ID: <161227040606.23782.1123549799399687015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

N. Ganesan wrote:
>2. K. Sivathamby, Vaiyapuri Pillai as a literary historian of Tamil,
>Sri Lanka Jl. of South Asian studies, 1 (New Series) 1986/87,
>p. 80-104

J-L. Chevillard wrote:
>I do not have access to this item. It would be could if you could
>summarize its starting point and its conclusion.

Have not seen this paper either. KZ gives this reference.

Dr. V. S. Rajam's UPenn dissertation on TolkAppiyam would have
summarized the problems of dating.

This could be a starting point and Jean-Luc Chevillard and other
TolkAppiyam scholars can find its date.

In the last two decades several short Tamil Brahmi inscriptions
have been found on rock shelters, pot sherds in Kerala, Tamil Nadu,
Sri Lanka, some dating back to 100 B.C.. Iravatham Mahadevan's
book, Early Tamil paleography is in print. Mahadevan uses
Tolkaappiyam rules and Tamil-specific letters like the special zh,
the _n endings in personal names to ascertain that they are tamil.
Will this have any bearing on the date of Tolkaappiyam? (I don't know)

Dr. John Samuel, Director, Institute of Asian studies is with me for 4 days.
All I can is to help in getting Dr. Rajam's dissertation published.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Mon Jul  6 09:01:51 1998
From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 11:01:51 +0200
Subject: Grantha characters
Message-ID: <161227040592.23782.14000069271984150949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

James Nye wrote:
I trust that members of the Indology list will respect the fact that "A
Primer in Grantha Characters" is both under copyright protection and
also still available for sale, as I mentioned in my message on June 29.
South Asia Books have gone out of their way to stock the publication --
certainly not a title with much turnover -- as a service to Indologists.
They should not be deprived of sales through illegal copying.
James Nye

Dear Subscribers,
I am very sorry to have offered an illegal copy of James Nye's " A
Primer in Grantha Characters" to Jacob Baltuch. I was convinced that the
work was out of print. I meant to help a colleague who has to deal with
Grantha characters, a difficult task if one lacks the necessary
guidance. Of course I had no intention to deprive anyone of his/her
sales or profits. I am happy that the Primer is still available because
now I need not violate any copyright in order to help someone else. I
apologize to James H. Nye for my mistake.
jn

--
jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de



Juergen Neuss

Freie Universitaet Berlin

Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte

K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a

14195 Berlin




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Mon Jul  6 09:27:28 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 11:27:28 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040597.23782.9392257147366503824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Birgit Kellner schrieb:

>(a) A friend gave the man a book.
>(b) The man was given a book by a friend.

>How do I know that "the man" in (b) does NOT function as a dative? 

It cannot function as a dative, because it occupies the specifier-of-sentence position, in other words, it occupies the subject position. In English, which hardly has case-features, word order plays a decisive role. In German, which has case, word order plays a much smaller role in determining the role of a word or phrase.

>the analogous German examples

>(c) Ein Freund gab dem Mann ein Buch.
>(d) Dem Mann wurde von einem Freund ein Buch gegeben.

>this is easy to figure out because of the definite article "dem", (using
>proper names
>in the examples is not such a good idea, by the way, because this point
>gets obliterated). So the question is: How can it be known that (b) is
>not the exact syntactic equivalent of the German sentence (d), but
>actually exhibits loc raising?

In my opinion, b indeed is not exactly the same as d. But there is more: a is not the equivalent in meaning of b, and c not of d. To stick to the German: `ein Freund' is not necessary the friend of the favoured man (`dem Mann'), while `einem Freund' sounds more like a real friend of the man in question (`dem Mann). You see, meaning has changed, so apparently the underlying structures differ a bit. As to your question, is not `ein Buch' denn in d der Subjekt? Is it not just an example of scrambling? Scrambling to the left of the dative (not the locative)? Or can you equally say in German

e) Den Maennern wurden von einem Freund ein Buch gegeben.

Ich denke nein. I think e) is not grammatical, while f) is:

f) Dem Mann wurden von einem Freund einige Buechern gegeben.

In f) the books (`einige Buechern') are the subject, in e) the man (`den maennern').

Or am I totally wrong in my knowledge of German?

>by the way, I also get attachments with all your postings; with filename
>"part 1,2", and filetype "ms-tnef". I tried to open one of these as a
>text-file; it just produces confused characters with "Microsoft Mail"
>printed somewhere in the middle. I'm using Windows 95 with Netscape
>communicator as e-mail software.

Is it possible that Netscape is the bad guy (in general, I am AGAINST Microsoft!), as I have a  friend who also uses Netscape, and she, too, receives the attachments?

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2720 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980706/b1b217ae/attachment.bin>

From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jul  6 10:48:39 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 11:48:39 +0100
Subject: [Book publication info] Dowson's Classical Dictionary...
Message-ID: <161227040594.23782.16793977258027873805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 19:32:16 -0400
From: dkprint at 4mis.com
To: wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Subject: (no subject)

Dear Dr. Wujastyk,

I am pleased to inform you that only recently we have recomposed and
published  A Classical Dictionary Of Hindu Mythology And Religion  by John
Dowson. We wish that it may be circulated among the Indologist.  We would,
therefore, be grateful to you if you could kindly forward the following
message to the Indology list.  With regards,

Yours sincerely,

Susheel K. Mittal
Director
MESSAGE


D.K. PRINTWORLD (P) LTD., NEW DELHI has recently recomposed and
published the following Dictionary:

A Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology and Religion Geography,
History and Literature
by
John Dowson
ISBN: 81-246-0108-9
Reason for recomposing the text has been stated in the  Note From the
Publishers . This note is being reproduced at the end.

The book is priced at US $ 5.00. Additional delivery charges by
surfacemail is US $ 3.00 and by airmail is US $ 6.00. Interested
scholars may place their orders through their booksellers or directly to
the publishers at the following address:

D.K. PRINTWORLD (P) LTD.
 Sri Kunj , F.52, Bali Nagar
NEW DELHI - 110 015
Phone: (011) 545 3975, 546 6019
Fax: (011) 546 5926
E-mail: dkprint at 4mis.com

Note from the Publishers
(printed in the new edition)
It is often found that scholars and students of Indic studies are
confronted with a variety of transliteration schemes in various
publications which perplex and confuse them in their attempt to
correctly grasp the transliteration of Indic sounds into English. There
is a need for a system of transliteration that would accurately render
the Indic words into English and provide something like a standard for
transliteration in the case of future works on Indic studies. The basic
purpose of our recomposing of this  Classical Dictionary of Hindu
Mythology and Religion  is to fulfil this need; to familiarise the
reader with the correct transliteration of the Sanskrit alphabet into
English. We believe that there cannot be a better place to attempt this
exercise than a fundamental work such as a Dictionary, and that too one
on Hindu mythology and religion, a topic no doubt basically essential
for students of Indology.
Diacritical marks have been used in this edition to distinguish the
various sounds of the Sanskrit alphabet as against, in the original
edition, italicisation of English letter which in combination produce
the required sound in Sanskrit. These discriminative signs rule out any
confusion arising from combinations of English letter and sounds.
The proper names, Indic terms and concepts are italicised in this
edition to demarcate them as belonging to the classical language. In the
case of plural forms denoted by  s  or  es  suffixed to the Indic words,
the  s  and  es  are left unitalicised to indicate the plural sense. For
instance, in Pur"a]nas, the  s  is not italicised.
Many Sanskrit words in hyphenated form in the original edition appear
here without being split by the hyphens, as there is no reason for
retaining most of the hyphens within the Indic words and also in order
to avoid complicated conjunctive Indic words.
We hope these changes would make the Dictionary more lively to the
scholars and students of Indology.

D. K. Printworld (P) Ltd.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jul  6 16:49:37 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 12:49:37 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227040608.23782.4531837189187221424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

> To me it looks as if Fortunatov's law, if we take into account Levitt's
> finding regarding the splitting of *l, is almost a restatement of Tamil
> morphophonemic rules beginning with tolkAppiyam.

I would disagree with this.

First of all, change of l occurs in other contexts as well:
kal vs ka_tka (_t = _r, the alveolar two-tap of modern school Tamil),
nuul vs nuu_tpaa, nuu_tpu (spinning) etc. This can be seen in Tamil
borrowings from Sanskrit: kalpanaa => ka_tpa_nai, alpa => a_tpam etc.

Secondly, in Tamil, l+t => _t_t, but Fortunatov's law says that
lt => .t, without compensatory lengthening of the previous vowel
(palta => pa.ta etc). It is this aspect that I find most mysterious
about this law. Most other changes seems to preserve heavyness of vowels.

Another problem is the occurance of `galda' in RV. This led Burrow to
put the lt => .t change at RV times.

---

BTW, what is the current opinion about Fortunatov's law? Gonda, in
``Old Indian'', puts quotation marks around the word law and otherwise
discounts it. Mayrhoffer, in KEWA, did not use it. Has Burrow changed
people's minds?




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jul  6 17:08:02 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 13:08:02 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040610.23782.12942967165381437717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Elliot Stern <emstern at NNI.COM> wrote:

> >Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote
> >>2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
> >>[...]
> >>A. Water was filled in the tank.

> A'. Water filled in the tank.
>
> Further, while I would not go so far as to say that the passive
> construction translation in A could not occur, my feeling as a native
> Brooklyn, NY, USA speaker of American English is that it is somehow wrong;
> I would probably understand A as a mistake for A'.

What about the literal translation of 2)-like construction:
A''. The tank was filled with water by me.

This is also the typical construction in Sanskrit, according to
Macdonnel (Vedic Gr. for students) and Speyer. The ta.n.niiraati(?)
(should it be -.t.ti or ta.n.niiraikko.n.du or some such) seems to
be due to the desire to avoid two instrumentals in one sentence.

[Does double use of a single case in one sentence occur in Dravidian?
It seems to be rare to absent in Modern Tamil.]

Regards
-Nath




From dupuche at ONE.NET.AU  Mon Jul  6 13:35:24 1998
From: dupuche at ONE.NET.AU (John Dupuche)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 13:35:24 +0000
Subject: Turangalila Symphony
Message-ID: <161227040586.23782.1461839805193318443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In an interview reported in The Age newspaper, 21-5-88, Olivier Messiaen
explained his choice of the title 'Turangalila Symphony'.
'The title? "A Sanskrit work I chose purely for its phonetic qualities.
It does have a meaning, though. 'Lila' means a game; a game of life and
death.'Turanga' means the passing of time, very quickly, like a
galloping horse. Together, the word means a hymn to life, to death, to
love, to joy, to time and its duration."




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Mon Jul  6 12:25:48 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 14:25:48 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040600.23782.15905054083672509410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Harold Arnold wrote:

>How about: "The ocean had tea dumped into it by the revolutionaries?" "The
>ocean" is clearly the subject here, but I won't even begin to try to
>analyse the phrase "into it by the revolutionaries"

Neither do I. I cannot escape the impression that your, rather unrealistic, example might have the following underlying structure,

A2)  `x - to_have dumped - tea - into the ocean - by the revolutionaries'

which on its turn has the underlying active structure

A1) `the rev. - to_dump - tea - into the ocean'

After A2, the ocean has been raised to specifier position SPEC of I (subject position), leaving a trace in the form of the correlated neutral pronoun `it'. Finally, there is a chain `ocean - it', with `ocean' indeed in a subject position, but with the remaining loc phrase still in place. `it' has substituted `ocean'. I cannot see this as an example of LOC to SUBJECT.

A3) the ocean - had have dumped - tea - into it(self) - by the revolutionaries

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl
http://www.ticonsole.nl/science/index.htm
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1820 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980706/c60670ae/attachment.bin>

From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Mon Jul  6 12:32:30 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 14:32:30 +0200
Subject: passive of causatives (moving IO to SU in Skt)
Message-ID: <161227040602.23782.14924931951441368758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>raamaM veedam adhyaapayati   '(he) teaches the V. to R.'
 >raamo vedam adhyaapyate      'R. is taught the V.'

>I hope there is no problem taking the accusative 'raamaM' as an *indirect*
>objet of 'adhyaapayati'. The same could apply to the first pair since (as
>far as I know) a construction with double accusative is in principle
>possible for 'darzayati' and it becomes a matter of whether you wish to
>see the passive sentence as the passive counterpart of the double accusative
>construction or of the accusative and dative construction like I do above.
>(Note: indirect object in the genitive also possible)

I agree with you in considering one accusative the direct object, and the other accusative the indirect object, or the dative. As we all know, one and the same function or kAraka can be denoted by several cases.

>Btw, why Rama and Nala? Isn't it supposed to be Rama and Krishna? :-)

>Also why John and Mary in the Japanese example???

Good point. Nala and DamayantI, and Ichiro and Kiyoko. Better?

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1938 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980706/6e61b131/attachment.bin>

From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jul  6 20:47:39 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 16:47:39 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227040620.23782.1946996272372085252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-07-06 12:50:43 EDT, vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU writes:

<< I would disagree with this.

 First of all, change of l occurs in other contexts as well:
 kal vs ka_tka (_t = _r, the alveolar two-tap of modern school Tamil),
 nuul vs nuu_tpaa, nuu_tpu (spinning) etc. This can be seen in Tamil
 borrowings from Sanskrit: kalpanaa => ka_tpa_nai, alpa => a_tpam etc.

 Secondly, in Tamil, l+t => _t_t, but Fortunatov's law says that
 lt => .t, without compensatory lengthening of the previous vowel
 (palta => pa.ta etc). It is this aspect that I find most mysterious
 about this law. Most other changes seems to preserve heavyness of vowels. >>

These objections are easily answered.

To answer the second objection first:

There is no need for doubling of _t or T all the time. In fact, I had shown
examples where the doubling does not occur. They were:

iyal + tEr > iya_tEr

nAL + tO_tum > nATO_tum

Moreover, from the point of view of pronunciation, Sanskrit intervocalic -T-
is closer to Tamil -TT- than Tamil intervocalic -T- which is closer to
Sanskrit -D-.

As for the first objection, certainly l at the end of the first word
(nilaimozi) may change into _t  (and L may change into T) when the second word
(varumozi) begins with k, c, or p also. But there is an important difference
between these consonants and t. k, c, and p remain as they are. But t changes
either into _t or T. That is why tolkAppiyar gave special rules 1.150 and
1.151 to deal with the dentals. So, there is a qualitative difference between
other hard consonants and t in the beginning of the second word.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU  Mon Jul  6 20:59:32 1998
From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 16:59:32 -0400
Subject: Francois Bernier and Thomas Fryer
Message-ID: <161227040622.23782.9730129149270137056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Francois Bernier from France and Thomas Fryer from England visited India in the seventeenth- or eighteenth century.  As Thomas
was a physician and Francois was a natural philosopher, their travel accounts contain information on sciences in India.  I want
to read their travel accounts.  However, I cannot find the complete references of their works.  I wonder if the subscriber to
this list could provide me the information.
Alok Kumar
Department of Physics
State University of New York
Oswego, NY 13126.




From amccord at IBM.NET  Mon Jul  6 22:16:25 1998
From: amccord at IBM.NET (amccord)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 18:16:25 -0400
Subject: Francois Bernier and Thomas Fryer
Message-ID: <161227040625.23782.2405248333985123152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An English translation is
Travels in the Mughal Empire AD 1656-1668
by Francosi Bernier
Translated on the basis of Irving Brock's version and annotated by Archibald Constable

Second edition revised by Vincent A. Smith

London:  OUP, 1934

Reprinted by Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi, 1992

Alok Kumar wrote:

> Francois Bernier from France and Thomas Fryer from England visited India in the seventeenth- or eighteenth century.  As Thomas
> was a physician and Francois was a natural philosopher, their travel accounts contain information on sciences in India.  I want
> to read their travel accounts.  However, I cannot find the complete references of their works.  I wonder if the subscriber to
> this list could provide me the information.
> Alok Kumar
> Department of Physics
> State University of New York
> Oswego, NY 13126.




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980706/8e5b9df5/attachment.htm>

From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Mon Jul  6 19:25:11 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 19:25:11 +0000
Subject: R. E. Asher -Reply
In-Reply-To: <s5a0a66d.039@wpmail.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227040612.23782.11467350005442338820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe N. Ganesan is looking for another professor Asher,
who is a specialist of Tamil [and also a general linguist
(University of Edinburgh: he was the general editor for some
huge encyclopedia of linguistics that was published some 5 years back]

I was able to find some old adress,
but I am not sure it is still valid:

Professor R.E. Asher
Department of linguistics
15 Buccleuch place
 Edinbourough EH8 9LN
 United Kingdom

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD


A 09:23 06/07/98 -0400, vous avez ?crit :
>According to the 1997 AAS Directory, Asher's address is:
>
>Frederick M. Asher
>Art History
>University of Minnesota
>107 Jones Hall
>27 Pleasant SE
>Minneapolis, MN 55455
>off.  612-624-4500
>res. 612-377-8809
>fax   612-377-8965
>
>Allen
>
>Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
>Senior Reference Librarian
>Southern Asia Section
>Asian Division
>Library of Congress
>101 Independence Ave., S.E.
>Washington, DC 20540-4714
>tel. (202) 707-3732
>fax (202) 707-1724
>email: athr at loc.gov
>
>The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.
>




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Mon Jul  6 19:17:30 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 20:17:30 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040614.23782.15575357371980360591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>(a) A friend gave the man a book.
>>(b) The man was given a book by a friend.
>>How do I know that "the man" in (b) does NOT function as a dative?
>
>It cannot function as a dative, because it occupies the specifier-of-sentence
>position, in other words, it occupies the subject position.

Hmm, you can say "to the man a book was given by a friend" with the
dative opening the sentence. A bit "poetical" maybe but certainly
grammatical.

So your reason seems convincing only in conjuction with stating that
in that position a dative needs to be overtly expressed by a preposition.

Indeed in about any other position than immediately after the verb,
or at least after and with no major constituent in between, the dative
function must be expressed by a preposition (example: a friend gave
a book *to* the man and not **a friend gave a book the man)

But I think it is entirely adequate to say like Elliot that it is
immediately clear "the man" cannot be a dative just by replacing the
man with a pronoun (it's *he* was given a book by a friend and not **him
was given a book by a friend) which is much quicker and simpler and
just as adequate than all the reasons above.

Btw, you've gotta love this subject line! :-)

PS: Regarding "water was filled in the tank" I agree with Elliot. It
    presupposes "someone filled water in the tank" and that's not possible
    because you fill a tooth, a tank, land, a hole, a need, etc. but not
    water, earth, etc. In other words what you do the filling with cannot
    be the direct object of the verb "to fill". Maybe people in LA started
    talking like this (this sort of thing seems to be liable to change
    pretty fast in English -- the first time I went to the US I was amazed
    to hear people "freak" instead of freaking out, "fill" forms instead
    of filling them out and I suppose that applies also to the regime of
    verbs esp. monosyllabic ones although I can't think of a well-known
    example right now) but I don't think it's standard English yet. All
    of this is just a non-native speaker's opinion of course.




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Mon Jul  6 19:15:16 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 21:15:16 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040616.23782.8059593599121507217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote

>>(a) A friend gave the man a book.
>>(b) The man was given a book by a friend.
>>How do I know that "the man" in (b) does NOT function as a dative?
>
>It cannot function as a dative, because it occupies the specifier-of-sentence
>position, in other words, it occupies the subject position.

>Hmm, you can say "to the man a book was given by a friend" with the
>dative opening the sentence. A bit "poetical" maybe but certainly
>grammatical.
>
>So your reason seems convincing only in conjuction with stating that
>in that position a dative needs to be overtly expressed by a preposition.

And that is because immediately before the SPEC to I position (generally subject position) there is a COMPlement, the landing place for preambles, and raised phrases, like subordinated clauses and indirect objects, like in your example ``to the man a book etc''. In your example, the book still is the subject. Elements are moved to COMPlement in order to provide stress, emphasis, as we all know without studying Generative Grammar.

COMP - SU - V - Obj - IObj.

>But I think it is entirely adequate to say like Elliot that it is
>immediately clear "the man" cannot be a dative just by replacing the
>man with a pronoun (it's *he* was given a book by a friend and not **him
>was given a book by a friend) which is much quicker and simpler and
>just as adequate than all the reasons above.


Certainly! Simple and adequate. It is a nice mnemonic aid. Remember, however, it is not an explanation, it's only an adequate help to your memory.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2156 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980706/49802d19/attachment.bin>

From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Mon Jul  6 23:14:01 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 23:14:01 +0000
Subject: Francois Bernier and Thomas Fryer
In-Reply-To: <35A13AB4.72FE5C6C@oswego.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040623.23782.13388529630486399594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

In a journal called purusartha, edited by the EHESS (Paris),
I find inside issue Number 7, dated 1983,
on page 278 a bibliographic reference (attached to an article
by Sylvia Murr):

Bernier, F. Voyages de F. Bernier , contenant la description
des Etats du Grand Mogol, de l'Hindoustan, du Royaume
de Kachemire, etc.
(Amsterdam, P.Marret, 1699), 2 vol. Ed. moderne
par Fr. Bhattacharya (Paris, FAYARD, 1981)

I hope this helps

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)


A 16:59 06/07/98 -0400, vous avez ?crit :
>Francois Bernier from France and Thomas Fryer from England visited India
in the seventeenth- or eighteenth century.  As Thomas
>was a physician and Francois was a natural philosopher, their travel
accounts contain information on sciences in India.  I want
>to read their travel accounts.  However, I cannot find the complete
references of their works.  I wonder if the subscriber to
>this list could provide me the information.
>Alok Kumar
>Department of Physics
>State University of New York
>Oswego, NY 13126.
>




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Tue Jul  7 12:46:01 1998
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 08:46:01 -0400
Subject: Archaeologist explodes myth of Ram Janambhoomi being in Ayodhya              (http://209.19
Message-ID: <161227040631.23782.2909186650808983876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

      HOME | NEWS | SPECIALS
ELECTIONS '98
      COMMENTARY
      SPECIALS
      INTERVIEWS
      CAPITAL BUZZ
      REDIFF POLL
      DEAR REDIFF
      THE STATES
      YEH HAI INDIA!
      ARCHIVES


      The Rediff Special
      Archaeologist questions Ram Janambhoomi being in Ayodhya


      Banawali in Hisar district of Haryana, by which the long-lost river
Saraswati once flowed, is probably the Ram Janambhoomi (the birth place of
Lord Ram) and not Ayodhya as is the common belief.

      This theory has been propounded by veteran archaeologist M V N Krishna
Rao, a pioneer in deciphering the Indus Valley civilisation script, who
unravelled the famous 'Pashupati' seal in 1969.

      In a paper titled 'Rama and Ravana in Indus Seals', contributed to the
'J P Joshi felicitation volume', Dr Rao has based his conclusion on his
reading of the Banawali seals.

      Dr Joshi is the former director general of the Archaeological Survey
of India and Dr Rao, a former deputy superintending archaeologist with the
ASI.

      In his interpretation of the Ramayana, Dr Rao has identified 'Rama
Sana' of Indus seals with 'Ramachandra' and thereby with king 'Rim Sin of
Larsa' in Sumer, who ruled the vast lands of Sumer, Elam, the Indus Valley
and the present-day Iran and Afghanistan from 1753 to 1693 BC.

      'Rim Sin' assumed the title of 'king of all lands' by the consent of
Goddess 'Nin Makh' at 'Opis', his second capital in Babylonia.

      Dr Rao says the archaeological evidence found in the Indus seals
showed that 'Rim Sin' had fought for a long time an undecided war with King
'Hammurabi' identified as 'Ravana' of the Indus seals.

      The king of Babylonia was finally able to defeat 'Hammurabi' in the
joint action with the chief of 'Subartu', 'Hurrian' and 'Mitannian'.
'Hammurabi' was killed in the fight, as suggested by one of the Indus seals
which has a legend reading 'Ravani Dama' or destroyer of Ravana.

      Dr Rao says the Indus seals found on the banks of river Saraswati
suggest that Banawali must be Ram Janambhoomi and not Ayodhya.

      He points out that under project 'Archaeology of the Ramanaya Sites'
headed by Prof B B Lal, excavations were conducted at Ayodhya, Bharadwaja
Ashram and Sringaverpura from 1975 and 1980.

      At Ayodhya, the remains of a Hindu temple belonging to 'Gahadwal king
of Kannauj of 11th century AD' were found underlying the Babri mosque.

      The antiquity of the other Ramayana sites excavated does not go
earlier than 1000 BC.

      This late dating of the sites had ''dismayed the experts, and the view
that Ayodhya was Ram Janambhoomi was abandoned,'' Dr Rao claims.

      Dr Rao, who used the principle of acriphony to read the proto-Vedic
language of Indus seals, says Vedic texts and Puranas almost correctly
mentioned the names of different tribes and the kings of different dynasties
in different regions.

      Having read all the 1650 seals that were legible out of the total 2325
Indus seals, he says the names of rulers of Babylonia, Assyria, Elam, Juda
and Egypt. along with their country and city names were sanskritised in the
Vedic and Puranic texts.

      Written at a very later date, the epics and Puranas got confused in
the identification of geographical landmarks -- names of rivers, mountains
and cities. In such circumstances, he says, there is little wonder if they
placed Ayodhya on the river Saryu near Faizabad instead of Saraswati in
Haryana.

      Dr Rao says possibly it is also one of the reasons for their confusion
as the Aryans adopted the same names to the rivers and cities while
gradually migrating towards east from Iran, Afghanistan, Indus Valley to the
Jamuna-Gangetic valley. Such frequent changes of place names was a common
practice among the conquering and migrating races of the ancient world.

      The latest findings revealed that the Indus civilisation covered a
vast region on the east-west axis from Alamgirpur to Sutkagendor and on the
north-south axis from Ropar to Bhagatrav, about another 1600 km. No other
ancient civilisation could boast of such a vast distribution of space as
claimed by the Indus civilisation. Moreover, it had nearly 1300 km of
seaboard along the west coast.

      Archaeologists at the beginning of the present century, Dr Rao says,
had unearthed in Iraq some very important clay tablets, stone Stela with
carved inscriptions and other art objects revealing significant information
about 'Rim-Sin'' and 'Hammurabi', who became famous for establishing an
empire and for furnishing a law code.

      'Rim-Sin', whose name was read in the Indus seals as 'Rama Sana', was
the son of 'Kudur Mabug (or Mabhana of Indus seal)' and reigned in Larsa,
the modern Sankera in Iraq.

      'Rim' in Sumerian language means 'ruler' and 'Raman' is the name of
'thunder god of the Amorites'. 'Sin' means 'moon god' in Akkadian language
and 'Sana' means 'god of thunder storm' in the Indus language, Dr Rao
explains.

      Before his accession to the throne of Larsa in Sumer, Rim's brother
'Aard-Sin' ruled for 12 years. His father 'Kudur Mabug' reigned in Jamutbal,
a kingdom on the coast of the Persian Gulf towards east of river Tigris
adjoining Elam. ''This name is identical with Jabuna or Sapuna or Jambudvipa
of Indus Valley.'' Rim-Sin appears to be an Aryan chief ruling over
Elamites, Sumerians and Aryans of Indus civilisation, Dr Rao says.

      UNI

      The Rediff Specials

      Tell us what you think of this feature

      HOME | NEWS | BUSINESS | CRICKET | MOVIES | CHAT
      INFOTECH | TRAVEL | LIFE/STYLE | FREEDOM | FEEDBACK



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980707/6dbbae81/attachment.htm>

From emstern at NNI.COM  Tue Jul  7 13:15:09 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 09:15:09 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b1c78eea5715@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227040635.23782.2940378872819839969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>>PS: Regarding "water was filled in the tank" I agree with Elliot. It
>>    presupposes "someone filled water in the tank" and that's not possible
>>    because you fill a tooth, a tank, land, a hole, a need, etc. but not
>>    water, earth, etc. In other words what you do the filling with cannot
>>    be the direct object of the verb "to fill". Maybe people in LA started
>>    talking like this (this sort of thing seems to be liable to change
>>    pretty fast in English -- ...
>
>I fail to understand. As far as I can see, the verb "fill" can be used in
>different ways, see examples in Webster's Dictionary: 1. "to fill a jar
>with water"; 5. "to fill sand into a pail". And I doubt that this double
>use of the verb is recent, because you have the same in German: "einen Krug
>mit Wasser fuellen" and "Sand in einen Kuebel fuellen". The same holds god
>for the Norwegian verb "fylle".
>
>Regards
>
>Georg v. Simson

I did not actually claim that "fill" could not be used in the sense of "to
fill sand into a pail", or "to fill water in(to) the tank". Let me quote
what I wrote, and explain:

"Before Vidyasankar Sundaresan's English example A becomes well established
in this discussion, I would like to question that it is an appropriate
translation for 1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu. Rather, I think
the expected English translation for 1> is:

A'. Water filled in the tank.

Further, while I would not go so far as to say that the passive
construction translation in A could not occur, my feeling as a native
Brooklyn, NY, USA speaker of American English is that it is somehow wrong;
I would probably understand A as a mistake for A'."

I was more uncomfortable with the passive construction than the semantic
"fill water in the tank". Please also note that I was expressing a
*feeling* that
"Water was filled in the tank" is (that is, seems) *somehow wrong*, rather
than asserting as an authoritative pronouncement that it is wrong. Maybe I
should have written "seems somehow wrong" rather than "is somehow wrong".
When I wrote the message, I recall that I thought "seems" would represent
either a redundancy or overkill, as I was already explicitly talking about
a feeling.

When Vidyasankar replied,

"Well, I'm used to writing what can be called technical English writing,
using almost 100% passive sentences, for purposes of scientific
publications. I've probably seen and used hundreds of sentences like A.
To my ears, A conveys a different meaning from A'. "Water was filled in
the tank" implies that a human being did this action. "Water filled in
the tank" implies that this happened of its own accord, or due to
non-human agency, e.g. due to rain or some such reason."

I began to draft a reply, but trashed it. As my reply could have pushed the
discussion into a "my Sprachgefuehl versus your Sprachgefuehl" exchange on
an issue only tangentially related to a proper Indology list discussion, I
refrained.

I regret that I initiated this small diversion from indological discussion,
and hope that it ends here. At the same time I would like to express thanks
to Vidyasankar Sundaresan, Jacob Baltuch, and Georg v. Simson for their
contributions.



Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Tue Jul  7 08:49:19 1998
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 10:49:19 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <v01530515b1c6bf346335@[194.134.29.15]>
Message-ID: <161227040628.23782.1047437375102435298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>PS: Regarding "water was filled in the tank" I agree with Elliot. It
>    presupposes "someone filled water in the tank" and that's not possible
>    because you fill a tooth, a tank, land, a hole, a need, etc. but not
>    water, earth, etc. In other words what you do the filling with cannot
>    be the direct object of the verb "to fill". Maybe people in LA started
>    talking like this (this sort of thing seems to be liable to change
>    pretty fast in English -- ...

I fail to understand. As far as I can see, the verb "fill" can be used in
different ways, see examples in Webster's Dictionary: 1. "to fill a jar
with water"; 5. "to fill sand into a pail". And I doubt that this double
use of the verb is recent, because you have the same in German: "einen Krug
mit Wasser fuellen" and "Sand in einen Kuebel fuellen". The same holds god
for the Norwegian verb "fylle".

Regards

Georg v. Simson




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jul  7 21:02:51 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 14:02:51 -0700
Subject: on taNNIr/toyam and toTTis/taDAgas.
Message-ID: <161227040644.23782.18422657675748081462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE> wrote:

>
>Anyway, sorry for this lengthy non-Indological parenthesis that I'm
>entirely guilty of having started (I'm talking of the whole subthread).
>No more from me on this thread.
>

Well, let's put a dead-end sign on this little diversion. I wrote to the
Merriam-Webster Editorial Department. Their response is appended below.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Karen Wilkinson <kwilkinson at mail.m-w.com>
To: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vidya at cco.caltech.edu>
Cc: replytosuggest at m-w.com
Subject: Re: grammar question ..

Thanks for your message.

The sentence "water was filled in the tank" sounds a little odd to my
ear.  The verb in the passive voice makes it seem as if the water is
the receiver of the action--that is, that the water is being filled
(with something else), rather than the tank being filled with water.

I would recommend rewording the sentence in one of the following
ways:

Water filled the tank.
The tank was filled with water.
Water was poured into the tank.

I hope I've been helpful.

Sincerely,
Karen L. Wilkinson
Merriam-Webster Editorial Department
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That settles it. The sentence is "somehow wrong," or it "seems wrong,"
or it "sounds a little odd." I suppose this is why we experimental
scientist folks have been able to get away with it in our journals. As
for English language usage, since a lot rides on what "seems/sounds
right," I, for one, will try to avoid such constructions in the future!

Best Wishes,
Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jul  7 19:28:38 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 15:28:38 -0400
Subject: Source for Indian narrative textiles
Message-ID: <161227040642.23782.11760566531525100881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone know a firm or person in the US importing Indian wall
hangings, particularly those telling a narrative?  An interior decorator
would like to know.

Thanks,

Allen Thrasher

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From sharmave at UNIVE.IT  Tue Jul  7 14:36:19 1998
From: sharmave at UNIVE.IT (Ghanshyam Sharma)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 16:36:19 +0200
Subject: northwestern region?
In-Reply-To: <v03020900b1c16611140d@[130.132.186.110]>
Message-ID: <161227040637.23782.4456442178874563003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11.41 02/07/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Gaur bAhIkaH is taken as a derogatory comment meaning:  "The bAhIka (or
>>bAhlIka, a resident of the northwestern region of this name) is [stupid
>>like] a bull."  This is often cited as an example of gauNI lakSaNA.
>>

Forgive me for just adding something that might be of interest to someone:

"Gaur bAhIka" is an example of "PrayojanavatI gauNI lakSaNalakSaNA sAropA"
(a sub division of gauNI lakSaNA) and has been discussed in KAvyaprakAS'a
by MammaTa. The common belief (?) is that the word "vAhIka" was used to
refer to the people of Afghanistan because they didn't believe in the Veda.


>So, as an example of a secondary/subordinate meaning, we should understand
>"Panjabis [?] are dull like oxen" (or singular), rather than the pleonastic
>(or tautological?) "oxen are oxen".  Is this correct? (I could not find
>exactly this in Patanjali, but this seems to be the explanation in
>ParibhASenduzekhara 15 -- is this correct?
>
>Jonathan SILK
>




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Tue Jul  7 21:19:10 1998
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 17:19:10 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040647.23782.16927310663784574170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

I don't know whether my posting about the passive Tamil construction
got posted or not. I don't understand why Sandra van der Geer
considers that IO can not be 'raised' (occupy the subject position)
in Tamil. It may be to do with the verb in question.
As I pointed out, it is a valid construction in Tamil to say

   Active:   nAn avaLukku paricu aLittEn
              I     to her   prize  gave

   PassiveI: paricu ennAl avaLukku aLikkappaTTAtu
             Prize  by me  for her  given

   PassiveII:  avaL ennAl paricu aLikkappaTTAL
               She  by me  prize given

I don't think Sandra van der Geer's claim* about Tamil based on
K. Rangan's article (which I don't have access to at this moment)
is valid.  If I'm missing something here please let me know.

     *Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, =
      German, Dutch and non-IE Tamil, Kannada.

Thanks

C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.


[I've retained parts of her posting]
@There are two options to analyse passive sentences: with raising and =
@with movements. If you are fond of Deep Structures, both are an option, =
@if you prefer Surface Structures only, only movements are an option. =
@Maybe I should have given here the term movements or move-x instead of =
@raising. But that are matters of definition (plus a bit more).
@
@Active:
@
@John gave a book to Mary
@SU - verb - DO - IO
@
@Passive
@
@A book was given to Mary by John
@Mary was given a book by John
@
@You see, both original objects can occupy subject position. This is a =
@common phenomenon in a number of IE languages (English, Sanskrit) and =
@non-IE languages (Japanese), but not all languages. All languages permit =
@DO to SU.
@
@Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, =
@German, Dutch and non-IE Tamil, Kannada.
@
@Examples:
@
@Sanskrit
@
@1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
@2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
@3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate
@
@Japanese
@
@1) john-ga mari-ni hon-o atae-ta
@2) hon-ga john-ni (yotte) mari-ni atae-rare-ta
@3) mari-ga john-ni (yotte) hon-o atae-rare-ta
@
@Tamil
@
@1) nAn avan-ukku oru pustukam ko.tu-tt-E.n
@2) oru pustukam avan-ukku enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-atu
@3) * avan oru pustakam enn-Al ko.tukkap-pa.t-.t-An
@
@Hindi
@
@1) mai.mne usko ek kitAb dI
@2) ek kitAb usko mujhse dI gayI
@3) * vah mujhse ek kitAb dI gaya
@
@In Tamil some locative phrases can move to subject position in a passive =
@clause.
@
@Example
@
@1) ta.n.nIr to.t.ti(y)-il niramp-i(y)-atu
@water - tank-LOC - fill-PAST
@2) to.t.ti enn-Al ta.n.nIr-Ati ko.n.tu nirappa-pa.t-.t-atu
@tank me-BY water-WITH fill-PAST-PASS
@
@More examples and ample discussion in
@
@K. Rangan: `Some Problems in Tamil passive structures', Indian =
@Linguistics 40-4:218-229
@
@(and of course my own book `The Bhasa Problem etc.)
@
@Sandra van der Geer
@Leiden
@Netherlands
@email info at ticonsole.nl
@http:\\www.ticonsole.nl\books\science\bhasa.htm
@




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jul  8 00:49:26 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 17:49:26 -0700
Subject: kaTha upanishad IV. 1
Message-ID: <161227040649.23782.6533096177340153995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Under the 18th sUtra in the pratyabhijnAhRdayam, kshemarAja, the Kashmir
Saiva author, quotes kaThavallI, IV. 1, and attributes this upanishad to
the atharvaveda (AtharvaNikopanishatsu kaThavallyAM
caturthavallI-prathama-mantre). This is probably the only Veda quotation
in this work; in general, Kashmir Saiva authors prefer the Agama/tantra
texts. The kAThaka samhitA and upanishad are generally considered to
belong to the kRshNa yajurveda. Is there an alternative tradition
attributing it to atharva, or is kshmerAja mistaken? Or is this another
indication of the mysterious connection between tAntric traditions and
atharvavedic tradiitons?

A sub-question to the above - kshemarAja's quotation reads AvRtta
cakshur amRtatvaM aSnan, whereas the standard reading is AvRtta cakshur
amRtatvaM icchan. The difference is not without significance. Is aSnan a
reasonably well-known variant?

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Tue Jul  7 19:43:12 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 20:43:12 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040640.23782.2191783839837385153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that I knew
the reasons Elliot had for finding the passive construction seemed
somehow wrong.

I should've said I (Jacob) found it substandard. Plus, it turns out
it's my finding it substandard which is substandard. I was entirely
not used to that usage and would never have used it myself, but I'll
just have to get used to it. Thanks to Vidyasankar Sundaresan, Elliot
Stern and Georg von Simson for giving me the opportunity to learn some
more (about) English and to fine tune my "fill" feeling.

Btw, I'm not completely reckless (at least not this time) I *did* take
the trouble before posting to check my "feeling" with my small paperback
American Heritage dictionary (unfortunately I had no larger dictionary
handy) and it does not know of the usage mentioned by Georg von Simson.

It gives for fill:

1. to make or become full
2. to build up the level of (low lying land) with material such as sand or
   gravel
3. to stop or plug up
4. to satisfy or meet; fulfill
5. to complete (something) by insertion or addition: fill in the blanks
6. to supply as required: fill a prescription
7. to place a person in: fill in a job vacancy
8. to occupy completely; pervade.

Unless I'm not able to read a dictionary properly, I'd say Georg von
Simson's usage isn't in there. But I'm sure the large American Heritage
dictionary has it, just as (one of the) Webster's does. I wonder if its
missing in the smaller size American Heritage means it is slightly less
common than the others. I'm not trying to find an excuse :-) I'm just
trying to figure out the scope of that usage.

Anyway, sorry for this lengthy non-Indological parenthesis that I'm
entirely guilty of having started (I'm talking of the whole subthread).
No more from me on this thread.




From fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul  8 11:52:32 1998
From: fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM (Christina Fritsch)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 04:52:32 -0700
Subject: Indo-Kafiri-Iranians
Message-ID: <161227040654.23782.177005752457627779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have several questions relating to the Indo-Kafiri-Iranian languages.

1)  Is there a reliable? chronology for the separation of the Dardic
and Nuristani/Kafiri languages from those of Indo-Iranian ?

2)How similar are the languages to each other and do they form a
common system of communication ?

3)Is it possible to detect substratum influences within the same
language family:  such as Kafiri and Indo-Aryan ?

I apologise if these questions should be directed to the Indo-Iranian
page.

Caroline Fritsch
School of Fine Arts,  Classics and Archaeology
University of Melbourne
Parkville VIC 3052
Australia.



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From emstern at NNI.COM  Wed Jul  8 15:23:47 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 11:23:47 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040661.23782.11621274047903093968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I (Elliot) was paying uneven attention to this thread, and missed the
following exchange between Jacob Baltuch and Sandra van der Geer
completely. Soon after, Jacob asked me offlist to interpret three Sanskrit
utterances. These utterances, and my reply (with a brief new note), may be
found after the line of asterisks below.

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>Regarding your Sanskrit example: if pushed I would have probably guessed
>that Sanskrit does not allow indirect objects to be raised to subject,
>since I'd never have thought of the passive of the *causative*, but you
>make an ingenious use of it, although it is not completely clear to me.

>1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
>2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
>3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate

>I'd always thought the meaning of (3) was "N. is made to give a book by R."
>(passive of "raamaH naalaM pustakaM daapayati" or "raamaH naaleNa pustakaM
>daapayati", i.e. "R. makes/has N. give a book").
>But "nalo raameNa pustakaM daapyate" in the meaning of "N. is given a book
>by R." with the crucial raising of the indirect object to the subject position
>entirely stumps me.

Sandra van der Geer replied (Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:07:45)

>I do not know if you understand Dutch (I see you have .BE as country
>code), but >maybe you understand 3) if I say

>1) rama geeft nala een boek
>rama - gives - nala - a book
>2) een boek wordt door rama aan nala gegeven
>a book - is - by rama - to nala - given
>3) nala is een boek gegeven geworden (door rama) / gegeven doen worden
>nala - is - a book - been given (by rama) / given cause to be

>Here, the idea of dative-like subject is felt.

It seems to me (Elliot) that Sandra seeks to stretch the meaning of
*daapyate* by playing with some possibilities of the Dutch language (this
play is I think also possible in English). In this way, she allows
*daapyate* "has been caused to give" to lose its causative sense, and she
finds raising of the indirect object to the subject position, etc. I think
it is fair to say that the aSTaadhyaayii would have given rules allowing
such an interpretation, and paaNini's commentators would have provided such
an interpretation if it were possible in the Sanskrit language. They
evidently knew the language quite well, and they were quite thorough in
discussing kaarakaaNi and the use of the various "case endings". Please
consider the interpretation offered below.

********************************************************************************

In his offlist query, Jacob asked me (Elliot) to consider these three
utterances:

>  na kaz cid indraayudhaM darzyate
>  daaso bhaaraM haaryate
>  raamaH pustakaM daapyate

I (Elliot) replied offlist:

The meaning of these utterances becomes clearer when we follow the lead of
the vyaakaraNa scholars, and other commentators, by providing equivalent
active voice paraphrases for them. They do not, by the way, make or notice
any semantic distinction between the active and passive voice expressions
(this is why I have sometimes given alternative English renderings in
various constructions - the translator needs to decide on the appropriate
rendering in English, German, Dutch, Lakota or whatever language for a
given text in a given context ).  As a shortcut, I am relying here on Vaman
Shivaram Apte's *The Student Guide to Sanskrit Composition* on the use of
the accusative, etc. with the causal verb, pp. 28-33. He gives some
references to sources in a.s.taadhyaayii, mahaabhaa.syam,
siddhaantakaumudii.

"na kazcid indraayudhaM darzyate" should be equivalent to "na kaJcid
indraayudham darzayati" "he does not show the rainbow to anybody".

"daaso bhaaraM haaryate" should be equivalent to the "daasaM (daasena vaa)
bhaaraM haarayati" "he  has the servant carry the luggage".

"raamaH pustakaM daapyate" should be equivalent to "raamaM pustakaM
daapayati" "he makes R. give the book".

Thus "daaso bhaaraM haaryate" may be translated "the servant is made to
carry the luggage". It does *not* mean "the servant is carried the luggage
to" (which I understand to mean "the servant is carried to the luggage"
daaso bhaaraM prati hriyate). "raamaH pustakaM daapyate" may be translated
"R. is made to give the book". It does *not* mean "R. is given a book"
(ramaaya raamasya vaa pustakaM diiyate).

Let us now look at the Sanskrit examples Sandra van der Geer
provided (in a message Re: Sanskrit Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:37:14 +0200)

1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate

1) means "R. gives N. a book"/"A book is given to N. by R."/"N. is given a
book by R.".
2) means "R. gives N. a book"/"A book is given to N. by R."/"N. is given a
book by R.".
3) does not mean the same thing as 1) and 2). I believe it should be
paraphrased as "raamo nalaM pustakaM daapayati", and mean "R. makes N. give
a book"/"N. is made by R. to give a book" (N.B., if Apte explains an
utterance like this, I missed it. So be cautioned that the source of this
interpretation (Elliot) is a lesser, and fallible, authority!)*

If Sandra meant that 3) is semantically equivalent to 1) and 2), I too
would like to know how that can be so.

Elliot

________________________________________________________________________________

* Clarification (for Indology list posting): I should have begun this
parenthetical disclaimer (N.B., if Apte explains an utterance exactly like
this,...

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Wed Jul  8 09:26:49 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 11:26:49 +0200
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
In-Reply-To: <01BDA8EB.5ECBFE10@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040679.23782.4265626721277412106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote
>I agree with you in considering one accusative the direct object, and the
>other accusative the indirect object, or the dative. As we all know, one
>and the same function or kAraka can be denoted by several cases.

        I can't agree: to take one of both accusatives as a dative is an
anchronism, projecting ancient syntax to our own and above all forgiving
the pragmatical shift of some verbs. I believe that, in ancient time, to
give, to spell and some other ones were direct actions on the receiver,
constraining him strongly. I can go further: from sentences such:
        * vAkyam uvaca rAmam
        * dAnaM dadau rAmam
we can suppose the personnal accusative being the 'true' direct object, the
other one being just a reinforcement of the verb or, better, an unmarked
'formal place' where can occur a substitution to precise the actual vAkyam
or dAnam (I use here 'formal' and 'actual' with the same meaning as for the
parameters of a procedure in computing languages). In fact, the correct
sentences must be prefixed by the anaphoric 'idam', the role played by
'vAkyam' being to determine the semantical class of this 'idam' and I
believe that 'idaM vAkyam' is not here an accusative but the unmarked case
of neutral words.
        Other opinions?
        Regards,
Dominique
PS (for French readers only): mon professeur de sanskrit m'enseignait de
toujours commencer par traduire mot-a-mot vaktum:interpeller et
dAtum:gratifier afin de maintenir la transitivite la plus importante.

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE  Wed Jul  8 13:58:18 1998
From: ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 13:58:18 +0000
Subject: Postpone
Message-ID: <161227040652.23782.7976511524577442011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is the postpone command not available anymore?

Thanks,
Arash




From khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Wed Jul  8 12:18:42 1998
From: khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Katja Hofmann)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 14:18:42 +0200
Subject: ALB,1944
Message-ID: <161227040657.23782.4415834731835308548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm looking for the article by Stella Kramrisch "Gajendramoksa-an
identification" in Adyar Library Bulletin, Vol.8,1944.
which is not available in Berlin Libraries.
Does anyone have a copy of it and would be prepared to send it to me ?
THANKS
Katja Hofmann
Inst. fuer Indische Kunstgeschichte und Philologie
Koenigin-Luise-Str.34a
14195 Berlin




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Wed Jul  8 18:58:02 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 14:58:02 -0400
Subject: Indo-Kafiri-Iranians
Message-ID: <161227040663.23782.3348275318585971889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> 1)  Is there a reliable? chronology for the separation of the Dardic
> and Nuristani/Kafiri languages from those of Indo-Iranian ?

I have no answers to the actual questions, but
I thought that Dardic (Kashmiri etc.) are considered to be IA, while
Nuristani is considered to be the third branch (though dissenters
can be found. Szeremenyi, for one, who quotes an unpublished thesis
by Nelson to say that Nu. are closer to IA and then argues that
Iranian-like elements are due to contact.)

Is this a mistaken impression?




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Wed Jul  8 19:00:50 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 15:00:50 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040665.23782.10168851134835741468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:
>My apologies for not responding earlier.

I prefer a slower pace for personal reasons anyway :-)

>Dravidian speakers observed a phonemic distinction between
>dentals-alveolars on the one hand and retroflexes on the other.

A seemingly minor point, but one that, IMHO, matters is that
in Proto-Dravidian, t, _t and .t are distinct phonemes, but n/_n is
opposed to .n.

To me convergence implies two-way influence. If two different languages,
one with just one n and another with n/_n vs .n, interact with each
other, convergence should lead to merging of all n's. It would be rather
strange if _n becomes .n distinct from n. [In general, if two groups,
one which distinguishes two sounds and another which does not but
depends on context etc to differentiate words, interact, the typical
outcome is for the sounds to merge.]

As I keep pointing out, such a merger is what we see at a later stage
in MIA and in many North and Central Dravidian languages. I am yet to
see any explanation of why it did not happen at an earlier stage.

>I assume that extensive bilingualism gradually increased as IA speakers
>migrated deeper into the subcontinent. [...] I think that the issue of
>*when* retroflexion became a phonemic process in IA is still an open one.

How about the following:
    Stage 0: Speakers of Proto-IA/Pre-IA migrate into South Asia. At
    this stage, PIIr t, d, dh, n were each one phoneme. These must have
    had allophones already produced >behind< the alveolar ridge. But s
    and .s must be already distinct.

    Stage 1: A period in which many of PIA/OIA speakers are familiar
    with Dravidian languages, with some (many?) being early bilinguals. Due
    to borowings and/or other changes (i.d, which I meantioned earlier as
    giving a constrast of i.daa vs idaa, seems to be abstracted from a sandhi
    variant of i.s) there is a split of t etc. in OIA. Bilingualism may have
    helped along such a split.

    Stage 2-?: The use of OIA/MIA increases (both in the number of
    spkears and frequency of usage) eventually leading a sizable number
    of people who speak only OIA/MIA. At some point, convergence
    leads to the merger of s/"s/.s, n/_n/.n and _t/.t, but t vs .t is
    preserved because it is found in both groups of languages.

Assuming that dental vs alveolar vs retroflex distinction existed at
Stage 1 but simplified later would work for t/d/dh but is problematic
for n because n/_n are only allophones in Dravidian. If PIA had n vs _n
distinction, we may assume a three way contrast of n vs _n vs .n at
Stage 1, collapsing later. But we are explicitely assuming single n in
PIA. [Furthermore, this is different from Deshpande's theory: I am
proposing that it was the IA speakers who were the main engine behind
the merger of alveolar and retroflex phonemes. This may be shocking to
some. But to sombody from Madurai who has heard a North Indian trying to
sing the line ``pa_ni mazhai pozhikiratu'', it is not, at least in
hindsight.]

This problem disappears if some allophones of  t, d, dh and n were
already produced behind the alveolar ridge. That -rt- becomes some sort
of shibilant in some Iranian dialects would support this. Finally there
is the case of .s and the fact that .t etc occur mostly in combination
with .s in the oldest parts of RV.

I will discuss .s in a separate post.

Regards
-Nath




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Wed Jul  8 19:07:50 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 15:07:50 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA: The case of .s
Message-ID: <161227040667.23782.14078715959373762290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

First, let us look at Iranian changes: I will use S2 and
S3 for shibilants of unknown value that become s and s-hacek in Iranian
and "s and .s in Indian.

PIE s  ---------------------------------------------> h
         ruki ---------------------S3---------------> s-hacek
PIE k' ----------------------------S2---------------> s
And k' must have become an affricate before becoming a shibilant.

I don't see anyway of making S3 disappear and still explain this.
If we keep s/S2/S3, what were the sound values and how do you explain
both the Indian and the Iranian developments?

Beekes, in `Historical Phonology of Iranian', JIES vol 27 (1997) pp
1--??, puts ruki rule in pre-IIr days. He adds that, on phonological
grounds, we can expect .s => s-hacek, and not the other way around. I
don't know enough diachronic phonology to agree or disagree with this.
But it is an issue to deal with.

I still don't know if it is words that matter or stems, for establishing
phonemes. If t and .t were still unified in PIA, what do we do with
.sa.t vs sat?

The second problem here is the total lack of sibilants in
proto-Dravidian. Sibilants seem to come from borrowed words or are from
affricates (PDr c or out of PDr stops). [It is doubtful that PDr `zh' or
whatever you want to call it was a sibilant. Also, it does not seem to
lead to retroflexion, in Tamil at least : there are words such as
`vaazhttu', `vaazhtal'.] Contact in such cases lead to simplification,
not splitting.

>He informs me that he has measured increasing retroflexion as we move
>from the family books of the RV to the later books.

But you cannot leave it dangling there. Why did the s/.s split, if it
was really due to Dravidian influence, not survive into Pali and
Prakrits? Note however that s/"s/.s merger is what we should expect
from convergence with Dravidian languages.

>Diachronically, the reading mo-Su-NaH is clearly *later* than the "daily
>pronunciation" mo-su-naH.

Before I get to this, a digression is needed.

The distinction between external and internal sandhi grows with time.
This is clear in case of sandhi of as+k/p. In RV, s often stays,
especially if there is no metrical or syntactic break. But as time goes
on, it becomes restricted to smaller and smaller group of compounds.
But, -as+k- stays -ask- if k begins a suffix.

A similar thing happens with is/us+k/p. RV has agni.s.te etc. Later this
becomes restricted to (two-member) compounds and within words. [Panini
does allow .s to stand (optionally), even in sentence sandhi, if the
first word is neuter sing. of an is/us stem. But this is rather uncommon
and is unknown in modern editions (and manuscripts?).]

The two situations seem quite parallel. Rules of internal sandhi apply
to closely connected words, if the second word is unaccented, and in
standing phrases. This is steadily reduced in later texts. Why should
we consider the second case as due to `mechanical recitation', but not
the first?

Now to `mo.suna.h'. It is not at all clear to me that `mosuna.h' is
earlier, or even that it was more than marginal. What is usually printed
as `mo .su .na.h' is actually maa + (uu .su) + nas. uu.su is, AFAIK,
always retroflexed. su does not occur as an independent word in
Post-Vedic; not even in Vedic Prose, according to Macdonell. Taken
together, I don't see how `mosuna.h' could be older, anymore than Pali
bhavissati be older than Sanskrit bhavi.syati. (In fact, before ruki,
laryngeals were probably still there which means that I won't even try
to guess the probable form of pre-retroflex mo.su.na.h).

There may have been other recensions to RV than "Saakalya. But it is not
at all clear that they had `mosuna.h'. In fact, according to AA,
Maa.n.duukeya too used .s and .n.

Another point worth noting is that nothing is said concerning .t. Is it
just a coincidence that t and .t remain distinct in MIA but s/"s/.s
merge into one phoneme as do n/.n? [I suspect that what is written as .n
in MIA was originally intermediate between _n and .n. This is what I
would conclude from IA-Dravidian convergence leading to the merger of
n/_n/.n.]

Regards
-Nath




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Wed Jul  8 22:17:51 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 16:17:51 -0600
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040675.23782.14617161660530555741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. C. R. Selvakumar wrote:

>As I pointed out, it is a valid construction in Tamil to say
> Active:   nAn   avaLukku   paricu       aLittEn
>             I     to her   prize        gave
KANNADA     nAnu   avaLige   bahumAnavannu koTTE

>
>PassiveI:   paricu    ennAl    avaLukku  aLikkappaTTAtu
>             Prize    by me     to her     was given
KANNADA      bahmAnavu nanninde  avaLige   koDalpaTTitu

>
>PassiveII:    avaL   ennAl    paricu        aLikkappaTTAL
>               She   by me    prize         was given
KANNADA        avaLu  nanninde bahumAnavannu koDalpaTTaLu

>I don't think Sandra van der Geer's claim* about Tamil based on
>K. Rangan's article (which I don't have access to at this moment)
>is valid.

Dr. Sandra van der Geer wrote:
>>Your suggestion of passiveII sounds good. Maybe it depends on the =
>>kind of verb you use, but as to the occurrence of the characteristic, =
>>this makes no difference. Thus, looking at your sentence PassiveII, I'm =
>>inclined to say that IO to SU is possible in Tamil, and the same will =
>>probably be true for Kannada.

[...]
>>Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, =
>>German, Dutch?, and Sanskrit. Languages which do so are non-IE Tamil, =
>>Kannada?, and Japanese. So far, the only exception to IE is English.

May be now "Kannada?" can be changed into "Kannada" in the last sentence.


Regards,
N. Ganesan




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Wed Jul  8 20:41:25 1998
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 16:41:25 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040673.23782.5451943669857534853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[..]

*Your posting did reach the list, and did reach me, but as I have a job =
*which costs me five hours a day travelling, I'm often in a hurry when I =
*read the discussions of the list. So, apologize if I failed to answer =
*you. Your suggestion of passiveII sounds good. Maybe it depends on the =
*kind of verb you use, but as to the occurrence of the characteristic, =
*this makes no difference. Thus, looking at your sentence PassiveII, I'm =
*inclined to say that IO to SU is possible in Tamil, and the same will =
*probably be true for Kannada.

     Thanks so much for clarifying. No, there is absolutely no need to
     apologize. I'm truly sorry my words elicited such a response.
     I was just curious to know whether there was something
     patently wrong in my examples or understanding.

*
*As you can read in my answer-posting to Eliot Stern, I also started to =
*doubt the IO to SU `business' in Sanskrit. In that language it looks as =
*if IO to SU is not possible at all, except for one exception (at least). =
*This makes the following statement untrue:
*
*> *Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE =
*Hindi, =3D
*> German, Dutch and non-IE Tamil, Kannada.
*
*Now it should be
*
*Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, =
*German, Dutch?, and Sanskrit. Languages which do so are non-IE Tamil, =
*Kannada?, and Japanese. So far, the only exception to IE is English.
*
*Everybody happy now?

     I'm. Thanks :-)

     Selva
*
*Sandra van der Geer
*Leiden, NL
*info at ticonsole.nl
*




From Ar.Zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE  Wed Jul  8 15:03:46 1998
From: Ar.Zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 17:03:46 +0200
Subject: Postpone
In-Reply-To: <01BDAA78.78B27280@annexr2-37.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Message-ID: <161227040659.23782.14483106437023666686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,

please ignore my previous posting.

Thank you,
Arash



On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Arash Zeini wrote:

> Is the postpone command not available anymore?
>
> Thanks,
> Arash
>




From fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul  9 00:59:42 1998
From: fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM (Christina Fritsch)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 17:59:42 -0700
Subject: Indo-Kafiri-Iranian: a clarification
Message-ID: <161227040677.23782.4171565842415112957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry maybe I should clarify my question:

When did the Dardic languages diverge from the Indian or Prakit
languages,  if we accept a provisional date for the rise of
Prakit/Indian languages in the mid-second millennium B.C when they
apparently existed as spoken idioms alongside Vedic Sanskrit ?

Is there a chronological framework for the divergence of
Nuristani/Kafiri languages from the Proto-Indo-Iranian family ?

Is there any substantial evidence for whether Nuristani predates the
arrival of Dardic languages in the subcontinent ?

As an archaeologist,  I am finding the literature contradictory,  and
there seems to be little interest in the question of when the
Nuristani/Kafiri languages spread to the sub-continent and there
spatial relationship to Dardic and Iranian languages.

Caroline Fritsch.
School of Fine Arts,  Classics and Archaeology.
University of Melbourne.
Parkville VIC 3052
Australia


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Wed Jul  8 19:34:32 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 21:34:32 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040669.23782.5777766181590445658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Selvakumar wrote:

>As I pointed out, it is a valid construction in Tamil to say
> Active:   nAn avaLukku paricu aLittEn
>             I     to her   prize  gave
>
>PassiveI: paricu ennAl avaLukku aLikkappaTTAtu
>             Prize  by me  for her  given
>
>PassiveII:  avaL ennAl paricu aLikkappaTTAL
>               She  by me  prize given

>I don't think Sandra van der Geer's claim* about Tamil based on
>K. Rangan's article (which I don't have access to at this moment)
>is valid.  If I'm missing something here please let me know.

Your posting did reach the list, and did reach me, but as I have a job which costs me five hours a day travelling, I'm often in a hurry when I read the discussions of the list. So, apologize if I failed to answer you. Your suggestion of passiveII sounds good. Maybe it depends on the kind of verb you use, but as to the occurrence of the characteristic, this makes no difference. Thus, looking at your sentence PassiveII, I'm inclined to say that IO to SU is possible in Tamil, and the same will probably be true for Kannada.

As you can read in my answer-posting to Eliot Stern, I also started to doubt the IO to SU `business' in Sanskrit. In that language it looks as if IO to SU is not possible at all, except for one exception (at least). This makes the following statement untrue:

> *Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, =
> German, Dutch and non-IE Tamil, Kannada.

Now it should be

Languages which do not allow movement/raising of IO to SU are IE Hindi, German, Dutch?, and Sanskrit. Languages which do so are non-IE Tamil, Kannada?, and Japanese. So far, the only exception to IE is English.

Everybody happy now?

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Wed Jul  8 19:37:39 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 98 21:37:39 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040671.23782.725115045271315698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Eliot Stern wrote

>"na kazcid indraayudhaM darzyate" should be equivalent to "na kaJcid
>indraayudham darzayati" "he does not show the rainbow to anybody".

>"daaso bhaaraM haaryate" should be equivalent to the "daasaM (daasena vaa)
>bhaaraM haarayati" "he  has the servant carry the luggage".

>"raamaH pustakaM daapyate" should be equivalent to "raamaM pustakaM
>daapayati" "he makes R. give the book".

Finally back to Indology, after the English and German side-walk we took! I'm happy you (Eliot) took the trouble to take the commentaries into the discussion; they can provide another view. With the examples you gave, I start to doubt about {\dn rAma.h pustaka.m dApyate}. Although your first example, {\dn na ka"scid indrAyuDa.m dar"sayate} looks as if here the `nobody' is the subject, whereas it is the indirect object in the active version. So, in 1) there is IO to SU, but in 2) and maybe 3) this is not the case. Is it a possibility that the commentaries, who

>... do not, by the way, make or notice
>any semantic distinction between the active and passive voice expressions

also fail to analyse the passive causative?

I took my example from K. Rangan: `Some Problems in Tamil Passive Constructions', in {\em Indian Linguistics}, 40-IV, 1979:218-229. He, on his turn, relied on D.E. Johnson: `On relational constraints on grammar', in: {\em Syntax and Semantics}, vol. 8 (eds. Cole, P and J.M. Sadock), New York: Academic Press; pp. 151-178. If the example of Rama and the book fails to show dative raising, then the overall conclusion must be: IO can never act as a subject in IE languages, except for English. Perhaps the only Sanskrit exception then is Baltuch's nobody is shown the rainbow (by him). If this turns out to be a real exception, then there is IO to SU, but on a very limited scale. The commentaries in any case seem not have been aware of it.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2476 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980708/eb7a4bda/attachment.bin>

From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Thu Jul  9 07:45:10 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 09:45:10 +0200
Subject: Indo-Kafiri-Iranian: a clarification
In-Reply-To: <19980709005942.27486.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227040681.23782.475110977501610881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Caroline,
        Bernard Sergent, in his new book "Gene`se de l'Inde", Paris 1997
(Payot), give a  full analysis of your problem.
        Regards,
Dominique

>Sorry maybe I should clarify my question:
>
>When did the Dardic languages diverge from the Indian or Prakit
>languages,  if we accept a provisional date for the rise of
>Prakit/Indian languages in the mid-second millennium B.C when they
>apparently existed as spoken idioms alongside Vedic Sanskrit ?
>
>Is there a chronological framework for the divergence of
>Nuristani/Kafiri languages from the Proto-Indo-Iranian family ?
>
>Is there any substantial evidence for whether Nuristani predates the
>arrival of Dardic languages in the subcontinent ?
>
>As an archaeologist,  I am finding the literature contradictory,  and
>there seems to be little interest in the question of when the
>Nuristani/Kafiri languages spread to the sub-continent and there
>spatial relationship to Dardic and Iranian languages.
>
>Caroline Fritsch.
>School of Fine Arts,  Classics and Archaeology.
>University of Melbourne.
>Parkville VIC 3052
>Australia
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Thu Jul  9 14:01:31 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 10:01:31 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227040685.23782.10184331279928404266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> There is no need for doubling of _t or T all the time. In fact, I had shown
> examples where the doubling does not occur. They were:
> iyal + tEr > iya_tEr,  nAL + tO_tum > nATO_tum
>
> Moreover, from the point of view of pronunciation, Sanskrit intervocalic -T-
> is closer to Tamil -TT- than Tamil intervocalic -T- which is closer to
> Sanskrit -D-.

I am unable to look at comprehensive lists of Sanskrit borrowings
from Dravidian at the moment (because the sources are far away or
checked out of the library). I would appreciate it if someone can
tell me if this implication are justified by such borrowings. [Because
Prakrits voice intervocalic stops, borrowing in reverse are not conclusive.
Learned borrowings are affected by writing and so I don't want use
them. to claim that Tamil _t_t/.t.t cannot be borrowed as just .t.]

> [...] But  there is an important difference
> between these consonants and t. k, c, and p remain as they are. But t changes
> either into _t or T.

This can be split into two rules: (1) l=>_t and L=>.t before stops and
(2) retroflexes absorb dentals and alveolars, and alveolars absorb
dentals. (2) is needed for nasals anyway: ka.n + niir => ka.n.niir.
(2) applies to IA also, but (1) does not, except for the strange fact
that lt/ld are missing except for one occurance. [t+l and n+l do
occur in Sanskrit where they become ll and nasalized l+l.]
It is this difference that needs to be explained.

Regards
-Nath




 That is why tolkAppiyar gave special rules 1.150 and
> 1.151 to deal with the dentals. So, there is a qualitative difference between
> other hard consonants and t in the beginning of the second word.
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan
>




From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul  9 17:06:52 1998
From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 10:06:52 -0700
Subject: Indian pancake
Message-ID: <161227040691.23782.14272735122963497263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
Would it be apu_pa? It occurs in RV and in almost all Indian languages
(with dialectical variants)and is a cake of flour.
Regards.
Kalyanaraman




---"Dominique.Thillaud" <thillaud at UNICE.FR> wrote:
>
>         I'm unable to find what could be the Sanskrit word(s) for
> 'pancake', id est a thin disk-shaped bread/cake made by a movement of
> rotation on a pan or in the hands.
>         Someone able to help me? Thanks in advance,
> Dominique
>
> Dominique THILLAUD
> Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France
>

==
34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA.
http://www.probys.com/sarasvati
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)
kalyan97 at yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Thu Jul  9 08:27:09 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 10:27:09 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <l03110700b1c924f78afa@[206.205.247.13]>
Message-ID: <161227040683.23782.5775754436565801177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Let us now look at the Sanskrit examples Sandra van der Geer
>provided (in a message Re: Sanskrit Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:37:14 +0200)
>
>1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
>2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
>3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate
>
>1) means "R. gives N. a book"/"A book is given to N. by R."/"N. is given a
>book by R.".
>2) means "R. gives N. a book"/"A book is given to N. by R."/"N. is given a
>book by R.".
>3) does not mean the same thing as 1) and 2). I believe it should be
>paraphrased as "raamo nalaM pustakaM daapayati", and mean "R. makes N. give
>a book"/"N. is made by R. to give a book" (N.B., if Apte explains an
>utterance like this, I missed it. So be cautioned that the source of this
>interpretation (Elliot) is a lesser, and fallible, authority!)*
>
>If Sandra meant that 3) is semantically equivalent to 1) and 2), I too
>would like to know how that can be so.
>
>Elliot

        Perhaps just a problem with 'semantically'.
        At low-level we can consider passive and causative being reciprocal
functions:
1) le chat mange la souris
2) * le chat fait ?tre mangee la souris (= le chat fait que la souris est
mangee [par le chat])
3) * le chat est fait manger la souris (= que le chat mange la souris est
fait [par le chat])
        Evidently, 1) = 2) = 3) is just a low-level equivalence, not a
fully semantical equivalence. The same occurs with the double negation: not
just an assertion but a strong assertion.
        Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Thu Jul  9 16:49:46 1998
From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 10:49:46 -0600
Subject: Indian pancake
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b1ca49288a79@[134.59.129.66]>
Message-ID: <161227040689.23782.18198940473526066431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Professor Thillaud,
I believe the word you are looking for is:
roTI or roTIkA
which is a flat bread on the style of pita bread rather than a pancake.

best,

Edeltraud Harzer Clear
Asian Studies
University of Texas at Austin




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jul  9 19:26:25 1998
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 12:26:25 -0700
Subject: kaTha upanishad IV. 1
In-Reply-To: <19980708004926.3366.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227040699.23782.13374931385854781606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidya,

The "kaThavalli" is not necessarily the kaTha upanishad we
with which we are all familiar.  Vedanta Desika (13th century)
mentions the kaThavalli or kaTha Sruti frequently, but from
the context it is clear that he isn't referring to the kaTha
upanishad [see SrImad rahasya traya sAra, dvayAdhikAram, for
example.]

Mani




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Thu Jul  9 10:26:34 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 12:26:34 +0200
Subject: Indian pancake
Message-ID: <161227040687.23782.4280641201914030090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        I'm unable to find what could be the Sanskrit word(s) for
'pancake', id est a thin disk-shaped bread/cake made by a movement of
rotation on a pan or in the hands.
        Someone able to help me? Thanks in advance,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From emstern at NNI.COM  Thu Jul  9 17:14:08 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 13:14:08 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <l03020902b1ca26525a91@[134.59.129.66]>
Message-ID: <161227040693.23782.3705651928660399817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Let us now look at the Sanskrit examples Sandra van der Geer
>>provided (in a message Re: Sanskrit Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:37:14 +0200)
>>
>>1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
>>2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate
>>3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate
>>
>>1) means "R. gives N. a book"/"A book is given to N. by R."/"N. is given a
>>book by R.".
>>2) means "R. gives N. a book"/"A book is given to N. by R."/"N. is given a
>>book by R.".
>>3) does not mean the same thing as 1) and 2). I believe it should be
>>paraphrased as "raamo nalaM pustakaM daapayati", and mean "R. makes N. give
>>a book"/"N. is made by R. to give a book" (N.B., if Apte explains an
>>utterance like this, I missed it. So be cautioned that the source of this
>>interpretation (Elliot) is a lesser, and fallible, authority!)*
>>
>>If Sandra meant that 3) is semantically equivalent to 1) and 2), I too
>>would like to know how that can be so.
>>
>>Elliot
>
>        Perhaps just a problem with 'semantically'.
>        At low-level we can consider passive and causative being reciprocal
>functions:
>1) le chat mange la souris
>2) * le chat fait ?tre mangee la souris (= le chat fait que la souris est
>mangee [par le chat])
>3) * le chat est fait manger la souris (= que le chat mange la souris est
>fait [par le chat])
>        Evidently, 1) = 2) = 3) is just a low-level equivalence, not a
>fully semantical equivalence. The same occurs with the double negation: not
>just an assertion but a strong assertion.
>        Regards,
>Dominique

I think Sandra was thinking about 'semantic equivalence', not 'low-level
equivalence'. I infer that from her reply message  re: Sanskrit Wed, 8 Jul
1998 21:37:39 (my local time) beginning "Eliot Stern wrote".

When I said 'semantically equivalent', I meant that each utterance said to
be 'semantically equivalent' to another utterance may be considered as a
paraphrase of that other utterance. The given utterances may then be said
to express the same meaning. Evidently, at least two previously unstated
assumptions apply: first, the examples should be utterances that one might
speak or hear in the course of ordinary, everyday discourse; second, all
the examples in a given set of utterances use only the same bases (here,
for example, raama-, nala-, pustaka- and daa-). There seems also to be a
third assumption such that each base is used the same number of times in
each example (and there may be other assumptions). I think that the
paaNinIya and other commentators are asserting such 'semantic equivalence'
when they say that two utterances like

1) rAmo nalAya pustaka.m dadAti
2) rAme.na nalAya pustaka.m dIyate

are equivalent. They would *not* assert that

3) nalo rAme.na pustaka.m dApyate

is in this way equivalent to either 1) or 2), or that 1) or 2) is
equivalent to 3). While 3) satisfies seems to satisfy all of the
assumptions that I just stated, it falls outside of the set simply because
speakers would understand something rather different from what they
understand when they hear 1) or 2), when they hear 3). Speakers would,
however, understand much the same thing upon hearing either 1) or 2).

Dominique's French examples 1), 2), and 3), which may be rendered in
English as:

1') the cat eats the mouse
2') the cat causes the mouse to be eaten [by the cat]
3') the cat is caused to eat the mouse [by the cat]

make a strikingly different sort of set from Sandra's Sanskrit set. The
Sanskrit set consists of three utterances that we could imagine the average
devadatta uttering to the average yajJadatta on the road. The French and
English sets consist of one utterance that the average Jean, Jeanne, John
or Jane might utter (le chat mange la souris / the cat eats the mouse). on
the street. But the second and third both in the French and English are
most assuredly not utterances of the ordinary man/woman in the street, but
are most probably the utterances in some grammatical metalanguage.






Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU  Thu Jul  9 19:37:33 1998
From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 15:37:33 -0400
Subject: Indian pancake
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb1caa3c1621a@[128.83.75.63]>
Message-ID: <161227040701.23782.15845895051927862946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to the query (Dominique THILLAUD ):

DT>             I'm unable to find what could be the Sanskrit word(s) for
DT>   'pancake', id est a thin disk-shaped bread/cake made by a
DT>    movement of rotation on a pan or in the hands.  Someone able to help me?
DT>    Thanks in advance,

Edeltraud Harzer Clear wrote:

> Dear Professor Thillaud,
> I believe the word you are looking for is:
> roTI or roTIkA > which is a flat bread on the style of pita
> bread rather than a pancake.
>
> best,
> Edeltraud Harzer Clear
> Asian Studies
> University of Texas at Austin


As already noted, roTikA is not quite a pancake but unleavened bread.
I found the wordfor pancake to be "ghaavana (m.)" in a book called
nighaNtaratnaakara.

This book is not a classic, since it was published in 1867, but claims to
consolidate old books. It contains a description of properties of
various materials (edible or not!) as well as details of Ayurveda -
both diagnosis and treatment. It is in Sanskrit with Marathi
translation.

For some strange reason, it also contains detailed recipes for
cooking! I can supply more details
if needed. The original author was one Vaidya V. V. Godbole.



P.S. Monier Williams does not give any word but a descriptive phrase -
probably coined by himself. The word ghaavana is certainly in use in
Marathi even today! It is possible that the
author might have Sanskritized it, but I will let other experts decide
on the origin.


--
|Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) |
And now, the next thought is from our CPU ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jone's Motto:
        Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate.




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Thu Jul  9 21:52:34 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 16:52:34 -0500
Subject: another Indian pancake question
In-Reply-To: <MailDrop1.2d7d.980709193228@langmac6.york.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227040709.23782.12321314931187037852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

a side question:

        In Divyaavadaana (Cowell & Neil 258.9) occurs the word
ma.n.diilaka(a).  While apparently ma.n.daka is a kind of thin pancake-like
bread, I cannot discover the meaning of ma.n.diilaka.  (It is of course
possible that the text is corrupt...)

Any suggestions?

Jonathan SILK

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From emstern at NNI.COM  Thu Jul  9 22:37:06 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 18:37:06 -0400
Subject: Indian pancake
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb1caa3c1621a@[128.83.75.63]>
Message-ID: <161227040713.23782.2027005185095839455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear Professor Thillaud,
>I believe the word you are looking for is:
>roTI or roTIkA
>which is a flat bread on the style of pita bread rather than a pancake.
>
>best,
>
>Edeltraud Harzer Clear
>Asian Studies
>University of Texas at Austin


Hi,
Would it be apu_pa? It occurs in RV and in almost all Indian languages
(with dialectical variants)and is a cake of flour.
Regards.
Kalyanaraman


While both of these answers are acceptable, it may be added that only
apuupa is well attested from very early times.

I have no idea how far back roTii and roTikaa go in Sanskrit.
Monier-Williams' dictionary says that roTikaa occurs in bhaavamizra's
bhaavaprakaaza. Does Dominik or someone have a date for this author/work?
Has anyone seen any early attestations for either roTii or roTikaa in
Sanskrit?

It should be noted that roTii is probably a loan word into Sanskrit from
either MIA or NIA. roTikaa seems to be the same loan word with an affix, or
a sanskritized form of *roTiyaa. I recall having heard a form like this
uttered repeatedly in Varanasi, especially by servants in the house I lived
in, but I can't be sure that it wasn't really a plural form (I might, eg,
have missed nasalization of the final vowel). These servants mixed many
Bhojpuri words into their Hindi. CDIAL 10837 reconstructs an OIA form
*roTTa, and does not mention any NIA form like *roTiyaa (other than
ruTTiaa, given in Dezinaamamaalaa). Any comments?


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From emstern at NNI.COM  Thu Jul  9 22:37:48 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 18:37:48 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <01BDAAB8.A3D631F0@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040715.23782.1808724005444486625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Eliot Stern wrote
>
>>"na kazcid indraayudhaM darzyate" should be equivalent to "na kaJcid
>>indraayudham darzayati" "he does not show the rainbow to anybody".
>
>>"daaso bhaaraM haaryate" should be equivalent to the "daasaM (daasena vaa)
>>bhaaraM haarayati" "he  has the servant carry the luggage".
>
>>"raamaH pustakaM daapyate" should be equivalent to "raamaM pustakaM
>>daapayati" "he makes R. give the book".

*Oh dear, I have erred!* "raamaH pustakaM daapyate" should be equivalent to
"raameNa pustakam daapayati" "he makes R. give the book".

Likewise, when I said regarding Sandra's example "3) nalo raameNa pustakam
daapyate",

3) does not mean the same thing as 1) and 2). I believe it should be
paraphrased as "raamo nalaM pustakaM daapayati", and mean "R. makes N. give
a book"/"N. is made by R. to give a book" (N.B., if Apte explains an
utterance like this, I missed it. *So be cautioned that the source of this
interpretation (Elliot) is a lesser, and fallible, authority!* [how well I
know myself!])

I erred similarly. The correct paraphrase is "raamo nalena pustakaM
daapayati". My caution was well founded! Please excuse, and ignore the
error.

Again, when I wrote,

"na kazcid indraayudhaM darzyate" should be equivalent to "na kaJcid
indraayudham darzayati" "he does not show the rainbow to anybody"

I should also have mentioned that one could as well say "na kaJcid
indraayudhaM darzyate" with the same meaning. If we translate word by word,
we might render the three utterances as follows:

"na kaJcid indraayudhaM darzayati" is "he does not show the rainbow to anybody"
"na kazcid indraayudhaM darzyate" is "no one is shown the rainbow"
"na kaJcid indraayudhaM darzyate" is "the rainbow is not shown to anyone".

But the commentators understand them as paraphrases of each other, and I
can still translate them all by "he does not show the rainbow to anybody".

>Finally back to Indology, after the English and German side-walk we took!
>I'm happy you (Eliot) took the trouble to take the commentaries into the
>discussion; they can provide another view.

Before today, I have made some reference to the commentaries indirectly,
via Apte's *The student's guide to Sanskrit composition*. Today, I have
made use George Cardona's *Panini* volume one (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass,
1988), especially pages 204-207, and commentaries to sutras he discusses.

>With the examples you gave, I start to doubt about {\dn rAma.h pustaka.m
>dApyate}. Although your first example, {\dn na ka"scid indrAyuDa.m
>dar"sayate} looks as if here the `nobody' is the subject, whereas it is
>the indirect object in the active version.


>So, in 1) there is IO to SU, but in 2) and maybe 3) this is not the case.
>Is it a possibility that the commentaries, who
>
>>... do not, by the way, make or notice
>>any semantic distinction between the active and passive voice expressions
>
>also fail to analyse the passive causative?

We need to separate these two matters. When I wrote about the equivalence
of active and passive voice expressions, I was recalling such articulations
as "Active and passive pairs (19)-(20), (21)-(22), and so on are equivalent
utterances in that they not only involve the same particular kaarakas
related to the same action in a like manner but also the same time
reference or modality" (G. Cardona *Panini* volume one, p. 173; the paired
examples (19)-(34) precede on pages 170-172) and others I heard while I was
his student. Neither Panini nor the commentators seem to differentiate the
semantics. Even if they felt any nuanced differentiation between active and
passives of pairs, they did not think it important enough to mention in the
description of the language. If we take the view that no nuancing or nearly
no nuancing of meaning was felt, it fits with, and might even help to
explain the eventual virtual triumph of passive constructions in Sanskrit
and MIA and NIA -- why bother with many verb forms, if you can say the same
things with only a few?

That said, let's go on to the passive causative analysis question. The
short answer is that they analysed it according to the paninian system. We
have no reason to believe that any of them was familiar with our
Graeco-Roman derived grammatical categories like subject, object and
indirect object, and they lived well before the generative grammar era.
BTW, while other indigenous systems of grammatical analyses of Sanskrit had
some currency in ancient India, what we know about them is fragmentary.

I do not mean to discourage you or anyone else from applying categories
like subject, object, indirect object, or from doing generative grammatical
analysis of Sanskrit. Only bear in mind that we need to walk those extra
miles through paninian scholarship to understand how the object language
works in our set of examples.

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From mkv1 at YORK.AC.UK  Thu Jul  9 14:32:28 1998
From: mkv1 at YORK.AC.UK (Mahendra Verma)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 19:32:28 +0500
Subject: Indian pancake
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b1ca49288a79@[134.59.129.66]>
Message-ID: <161227040695.23782.7379926250819413455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

the word for a pancake in Hindi is "cillaa". "RoTii" is different from
"cillaa".




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Thu Jul  9 19:56:06 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 20:56:06 +0100
Subject: bookstores?
Message-ID: <161227040697.23782.5778714170314343956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anybody knows of a bookstore in the Netherlands with a decent
Sanskrit section (European publishing and/or Indian publishing
of e.g. M.R.Kale's editions, etc.) and/or a decent IE (lingu.)
section?

I've been to places such as Atleest in Leiden and Heremiet in
Eindhoven. Heremiet is fully a New Age bookstore with one dic-
tionary in lieu of a liguistics section. Atleest has two shelves
of Sanskrit (a few reference works; nothing of what I was looking
for; basically no texts except for a lone reader) and is also sort
of a half-New Age store. I asked the guy there about Beekes's
"Vergelijkende Taalwetenschap", a pretty basic introductory text-
book I thought, and he had never heard of it or of Beekes for that
matter. I've been told of Au Bout du Monde in Amsterdam but also
that its selection is basically similar...

There's good Dutch linguistics publishers, so why not good lingu.
bookstores?

How about in Germany within reasonable range (say 300 kms) of
Eindhoven?




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Thu Jul  9 19:33:18 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 21:33:18 +0200
Subject: double accusatives
Message-ID: <161227040703.23782.2053204823976598024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Domique Thillaud `a ecrit:

>Sandra van der Geer wrote
>>I agree with you in considering one accusative the direct object, and the
>>other accusative the indirect object, or the dative. As we all know, one
>>and the same function or kAraka can be denoted by several cases.

>        I can't agree: to take one of both accusatives as a dative is an
>anchronism, projecting ancient syntax to our own and above all forgiving
>the pragmatical shift of some verbs.

Honestly speaking, you do the same, with your projecting of computing procedures to Sanskrit, as regards formal and actual places. Never mind; Panini, too, must have been an innovator in his time, as he invented metagrammar. So we can apply modern ideas to the classical languages without insulting the ancient .r.si's and sadhu's.

I can go further: from sentences such:
>        * vAkyam uvaca rAmam
>        * dAnaM dadau rAmam
>we can suppose the personnal accusative being the 'true' direct object, the
>other one being just a reinforcement of the verb or, better, an unmarked
>'formal place' where can occur a substitution to precise the actual vAkyam
>or dAnam (I use here 'formal' and 'actual' with the same meaning as for the
>parameters of a procedure in computing languages). In fact, the correct
>sentences must be prefixed by the anaphoric 'idam', the role played by
>'vAkyam' being to determine the semantical class of this 'idam' and I
>believe that 'idaM vAkyam' is not here an accusative but the unmarked case
>of neutral words.
>        Other opinions?

Interesting point of view! For one reason or the other the vAkyam/dAnam noun phrases cannot be used without a determiner, in your example the non-anaphoric idam. It has nothing to do with the other noun phrase being occupied with a personal name, as when we insert gurum for instance, nothing changes. You explain this different behaviour by assuming a formal and an actual place. Maybe this is  a good explanation.

However, what if the other (in my eyes indirect object) accusative is lacking? I mean, what to think of the clause

idam uvAca rAjA

Now your `true' direct object is missing in this clause, and only the unmarked case of neutral words, nothing more than a reinforcement of the verb is remaining. This is unlikely, as as a rule, true transitives (and vAc- is one, it's even a bitransitive) often have an object. Therefore, I consider the `ida.m vAkyam' part still a direct object (the karman), expressed by the accusative, and the `rAmam' part an indirect object (the sa.mpradAna), expressed by the accusative, too. By the way, is Panini aware of an unmarked case of neutral words just to reinforce the meaning of the verb?


>PS (for French readers only): mon professeur de sanskrit m'enseignait de
>toujours commencer par traduire mot-a-mot vaktum:interpeller et
>dAtum:gratifier afin de maintenir la transitivite la plus importante

Mais `grativier' avec quoi? Le roi a gratifie le prince avec un chateau (rouge). Alors, le mot `vAkyam' en cet occasion a la function de instrumental?

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl




From rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jul 10 04:39:31 1998
From: rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA (Soneji)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 21:39:31 -0700
Subject: Hindi/Urdu word "Shabhash"
Message-ID: <161227040719.23782.4690143904814011371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for historical or etymological information on the Hindi/Urdu
word "Shabhash", often used as a term of encouragement especially in
artistic contexts.  I am not sure if I have even transliterated it
correctly, but the Telugu manuscript in which I have found it spells it
as "ShAbhAshu". Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
Devesh Soneji




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Thu Jul  9 20:01:34 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 22:01:34 +0200
Subject: bookstores?
Message-ID: <161227040705.23782.11017988828093065675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch asked for a linguist bookstore.

Well, I'm living in the Netherlands, but I've never found a good one. The better bookstores, like Ginsberg in Leiden (Breestraat) and Broese Keemink in Utrecht (Stadhuisbrug) have lots of Europa-oriented books, but hardly any on an exotic plan. I think it is logical: Dutch people want to rent, hire, lease, but never buy!

Why don't you try http://www.amazone.com, the greatest bookstore on the web? Look for References, than Linguistics, and type the keyword you like.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden, NL
info at ticonsole.nl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1531 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980709/94d7e7df/attachment.bin>

From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Thu Jul  9 21:44:12 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 22:44:12 +0100
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
Message-ID: <161227040707.23782.4319911678599207736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominique Thillaud wrote:

>Sandra van der Geer wrote
>>I agree with you in considering one accusative the direct object, and the
>>other accusative the indirect object, or the dative. As we all know, one
>>and the same function or kAraka can be denoted by several cases.
>
>        I can't agree: to take one of both accusatives as a dative is an
>anchronism, projecting ancient syntax to our own and above all forgiving
>the pragmatical shift of some verbs. I believe that, in ancient time, to
>give, to spell and some other ones were direct actions on the receiver,
>constraining him strongly.

We were talking about an example with the verb 'darzayati' I believe in the
meaning of 'show'.

That the 2nd accusative of the (theoretical) double accusative construction
of darzayati was considered an indirect object by the users of the language
themselves is made plain by the fact that that accusative is much more commonly
replaced by a dative or a genitive.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jul 10 02:47:11 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 22:47:11 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227040721.23782.5631166298932335041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-07-09 10:03:27 EDT, vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU writes:

<< > There is no need for doubling of _t or T all the time. In fact, I had
shown
 > examples where the doubling does not occur. They were:
 > iyal + tEr > iya_tEr,  nAL + tO_tum > nATO_tum
 >
 > Moreover, from the point of view of pronunciation, Sanskrit intervocalic
-T-
 > is closer to Tamil -TT- than Tamil intervocalic -T- which is closer to
 > Sanskrit -D-.

 I am unable to look at comprehensive lists of Sanskrit borrowings
 from Dravidian at the moment (because the sources are far away or
 checked out of the library). I would appreciate it if someone can
 tell me if this implication are justified by such borrowings. [Because
 Prakrits voice intervocalic stops, borrowing in reverse are not conclusive.
 Learned borrowings are affected by writing and so I don't want use
 them. to claim that Tamil _t_t/.t.t cannot be borrowed as just .t.]
>>

This is what Burrow says: "Intervocalically a single unvoiced consonant in
Sanskrit very often replaces a double consonant in Dravidian: cf. capeTA
(no.21), piTaka-, puTa-, (no.39), etc." (p. 265) in Some Dravidian Words in
Sanskrit, in Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics, 1968, p.236-284.

What is interesting is Sanskrit shows variant forms with single and geminate
Ts. For instance, in addition to Skt. paTa cloth, we also have paTTa . These
are of IE origin. But a parallel case can be shown for loans from Dravidian
also. Burrow says, " There is another word puTa- n. in Sanskrit ....It means
'anthill', and is found only in the cpd. pipIlakapuTa-, MBh. The Dravidian
word from which it is derived appears in the various languages as follows: Ta.
pu_t_tu anthill, Ka. puttu Te. puTTa, Kui pusi, Kuvi puci, Malt. pute id.  Of
these the Telugu form with -TT- (out of original affricate most closely
resembles the Sanskrit word. On the other hand, in another loanword from the
same Dravidian source, namely Skt. puttikA f. the white ant or termite, the
Sanskrit word shows the same development of the internal consonant as
Kanarese." (p.274) (This example also shows variations between alveolar,
dental and retroflex.) So I don't think the presence or absence of gemination
can be used to reject Dravidian as the source of IA retroflexion.

<<
> [...] But  there is an important difference
 > between these consonants and t. k, c, and p remain as they are. But t
changes
 > either into _t or T.

 This can be split into two rules: (1) l=>_t and L=>.t before stops and
 (2) retroflexes absorb dentals and alveolars, and alveolars absorb
 dentals. (2) is needed for nasals anyway: ka.n + niir => ka.n.niir.
 (2) applies to IA also, but (1) does not, except for the strange fact
 that lt/ld are missing except for one occurance. [t+l and n+l do
 occur in Sanskrit where they become ll and nasalized l+l.]
 It is this difference that needs to be explained.
  >>

I do not understand exactly what you mean here. But, in order for the
Dravidian origin of retroflexion to be accepted, if you require that Dravidian
should exhibit a tendency where L > T only before t and not before k, c, p
replicating the situation in Sanskrit, I think a case can be made as follows.

As I have noted in my earlier posting, we should look to the colloquial
Dravidian language for clues to the origin of retroflexion in IA. After all,
the split of *l into l and L also is based not on centamiz but colloquial
Tamil (and other central Dravidian languages). In many colloquial situations,
L does not become T before consonants like k, c, and p. Malayalam which has
severed its connections with centamiz offers evidence for the unique nature of
t vs k, c, and p. Consider the root kEL- to hear. From it are derived forms
like kELkkunnu, kELppin2, etc. Note L does not change into T. On the other
hand, with the suffix tt, it is kETTu and not kELttu. Similarly with the root
vaRaL - to dry up, we have vaRaLcca dryness, but vaRaTTuka to dry up, vaRaTi
barren woman.

So I do not see anything unique about the above situation in Sanskrit which
cannot be explained with a Dravidian origin of retroflexion.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Fri Jul 10 13:58:51 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 08:58:51 -0500
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b1cb9e7cfe42@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227040741.23782.1365260174189433367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I really very much hesitate to enter this discussion, which I but poorly
understand, but my friend Georg said something which prompted a thought:

> But is it not
>more sound to take case endings seriously

Is not the really crucial issue the one alluded to by Boris, namely
"semantic roles"? In other words, at least from the Indian viewpoint should
not the discussion be framed in terms of kaaraka theory, rather than case
endings?  (But probably I have thoroughtly misunderstood the argument, in
which case please ignore my babbles.)

Jonathan SILK

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Fri Jul 10 14:09:22 1998
From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 10:09:22 -0400
Subject: Hindi/Urdu word "Shabhash"
In-Reply-To: <35A59B03.71F9@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <161227040748.23782.10040475977884984227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Soneji wrote:

> I am looking for historical or etymological information on the Hindi/Urdu
> word "Shabhash", often used as a term of encouragement especially in
> artistic contexts.  I am not sure if I have even transliterated it
> correctly, but the Telugu manuscript in which I have found it spells it
> as "ShAbhAshu". Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> Devesh Soneji
>
>
>
from the Persian "shaad baash,"  "be happy!"  I believe-- an explanation
of approval like Bravo! or Well done!




From yoshi at TENRIKYO.OR.JP  Fri Jul 10 01:35:25 1998
From: yoshi at TENRIKYO.OR.JP (Yoshi Onishi)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 10:35:25 +0900
Subject: kaTha upanishad IV. 1
Message-ID: <161227040717.23782.14879839849739278869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 17:49 7/7/98 -0700, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
>Under the 18th sUtra in the pratyabhijnAhRdayam, kshemarAja, the Kashmir
>Saiva author, quotes kaThavallI, IV. 1, and attributes this upanishad to
>the atharvaveda (AtharvaNikopanishatsu kaThavallyAM
>caturthavallI-prathama-mantre). This is probably the only Veda quotation
>in this work; in general, Kashmir Saiva authors prefer the Agama/tantra
>texts. The kAThaka samhitA and upanishad are generally considered to
>belong to the kRshNa yajurveda. Is there an alternative tradition
>attributing it to atharva, or is kshmerAja mistaken? Or is this another
>indication of the mysterious connection between tAntric traditions and
>atharvavedic tradiitons?
>
>A sub-question to the above - kshemarAja's quotation reads AvRtta
>cakshur amRtatvaM aSnan, whereas the standard reading is AvRtta cakshur
>amRtatvaM icchan. The difference is not without significance. Is aSnan a
>reasonably well-known variant?
>
>Vidyasankar
>
-----------------------

Though I have no answer to the questions posed, may I just comment that
Jaideva Singh's English translation (The Secret of Self-recognition, p. 97)
says "wishing to taste immortality." (The aSnan version is printed there as
well.) Did Singh perhaps try to incorporate both versions somehow?

Yoshi Onishi




From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU  Fri Jul 10 15:19:34 1998
From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 11:19:34 -0400
Subject: many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040754.23782.10600423139530052379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

More about pancakes and other nice edibles!

Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

>         The ghAvana of Avinash Sathaye is puzzling, not found in
> Monnier-Williams, where the nearest form seems to be a root ghuN- 'to go or
> move about'. Mayrhofer (KEWA) precises ghuNati, ghoNati or ghUrNati 'moves
> to and fro' (only ghUrN- 'waver' in Whitney). The 'n' seems to be in the
> root but that's not sure, because MW and M give a link with ghola
> 'buttermilk', a product of churning. All this could suggest the ghAvana
> pancake to be made with a movement (rotative? alternative?). Any precision
> in the recipe? I think to the Greek kha(w)os 'original Chaos' (said in some
> traditions = Tartaros, agitated by perpetual winds).

Here is the precise recipe for the ghaavana:
 (The notation is ITRANS, the  whole material can be input into the ITRANSLATOR

for easy viewing in devnagari as needed. I have also included an rtf file for
this purpose.)

trivaaraM kaNDitaanaaM cha taNDulaanaaM supishhTakam.h |
ashhTamaa.nshadhR^itenaashu saMmardya tadanantaram.h ||
jalena cha draviikuryaadyaavaccha ghanadhaarayaa |
patishhyati tatashchullyaaM lohapaatre prataapite ||
ki.nchiddhR^itaM laapayitvaa pashchaatpishhTaM prasaarayet.h |
yavapramaaNaM pashchaattajjaate sachchhidrake tataH ||
pidhaanaM chopari nyasya pakve nishhkaasayettataH |
dugdhasharkarayaa bhaxyaa ghaavanaaH shaalivadguNaaH ||

##Thrice pounded fine rice flour should be thoroughly mixed with eighth part
clarified butter (ghee). Then dilute with enough water so it makes a thick
flow.
Then spread a little ghee on an iron pot  (preheated on a stove) and then
spread
the (prepared) flour. When it develops barley size holes, cover and remove
after cooked.
These ghaavanaas are to be eaten with milk and sugar and have the same
properties as rice.
##

>         Jonathan Silk suggests maNDaka and the (diminutive?) maNDIlaka.
> This last word is given by MW: m. 'a kind of cake' (diyAv.) (hidden after
> maNDa). Interesting. Made with cream (maNDa)? or shaped like the war-disk
> (maNDala)? In both cases the idea of a rotation is possible (manth- for the
> cream and for the poor head of Namuci).

My  book also has a recipe for maNDaka (termed maa.nDe in Marathi) and it is
like a very thin
and crisp version of roTii. It is to be roasted on the BOTTOM part of a clay
pot (sort of like
the Crepes) but it uses a thick kneaded dough, rather than  batter! The word
probably refers to
the shape, the professional versions are indeed as big as 1.5 feet in diameter!
(They just use a big
skillet and not a clay pot though!)

The apuupa is also mentioned in the and is basically Cream of Wheat mixed with
brown sugar and deep
fried in ghee. So not quite a pancake!
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ghaavana.rtf
Type: application/rtf
Size: 1433 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980710/b7b1f04f/attachment.rtf>

From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL  Fri Jul 10 15:21:19 1998
From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 11:21:19 -0400
Subject: bookstores?
Message-ID: <161227040725.23782.7545039805542122969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:56:06 +0100 you wrote:

>Anybody knows of a bookstore in the Netherlands with a decent
>Sanskrit section (European publishing and/or Indian publishing
>of e.g. M.R.Kale's editions, etc.) and/or a decent IE (lingu.)
>section?
>
Dear Indologists,

Atleest is a special case as it is run by an enthousiast owner who does not target scientists as clients. You might find very useful stuff or absolutely nothing. Books by Beekes and similar regular scholarly publications, if published by Brill and the likes, can be ordered by any bookshop at astonishing prices. You might try Kooyker in the Breestraat in Leiden and their other site in the same street. In Leiden, there is also Smitskamp's at the Nieuwe Rijn (across the bridge opposite V+D), the former Brill-shop who specialises in Oriental books. Most of it is Islamologist and Hebreist materials but on the attic there is a vast (antiquariate) collection of oriental publications on various subjects. Bring a decent amount of cash, though: the prices are staggering (a well-known book which is out of print may cost easily fl 200,00 = $100 there). It is a treasury of rare and hard to find publications, though.

Good hunting,
Thomas de Bruijn




From emstern at NNI.COM  Fri Jul 10 15:34:26 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 11:34:26 -0400
Subject: many pancakes
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b1cb7480e3c7@[134.59.129.66]>
Message-ID: <161227040751.23782.17622330594865860712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I thank all those who give me so many pancakes.
>        I was mainly interested by the making-off, hence the (a)pUpa of
>Kalyanaraman, despite the ancientness quoted by Elliot Stern, is, alas,
>useless.
>        Similarly the roTI(kA) of Edeltraud Harzer Clear, analysed by
>Elliot Stern. I resist to the temptation of latin rota 'wheel' which, in
>fact, is linked to ratha ;-(    but portuguese? ;-)
>        Mahendra Verma suggests Hindi cillaa but, being inexpert, I was
>unable to find a Sanskrit root to this word. A loan-word?

CDIAL #4827 *cilla-2 'unctuous, shining'
Pk. cillaa- cilliya 'shining'; Sindhi cilo 'pancake' ... Nepali cillo
'greasy, smooth, polished', substantive 'grease, ghee', Hindi cilaknaa 'to
be bright', cilcilaanaa 'to be very hot (of the sun)'

I would guess that 'shine, be bright' is the unifying meaning. Fresh rotis
shine when brushed with ghee.

>        The ghAvana of Avinash Sathaye is puzzling, not found in
>Monnier-Williams, where the nearest form seems to be a root ghuN- 'to go or
>move about'. Mayrhofer (KEWA) precises ghuNati, ghoNati or ghUrNati 'moves
>to and fro' (only ghUrN- 'waver' in Whitney). The 'n' seems to be in the
>root but that's not sure, because MW and M give a link with ghola
>'buttermilk', a product of churning. All this could suggest the ghAvana
>pancake to be made with a movement (rotative? alternative?). Any precision
>in the recipe? I think to the Greek kha(w)os 'original Chaos' (said in some
>traditions = Tartaros, agitated by perpetual winds).

When my eye wandered to CDIAL 4466 *ghaana 'mill', I noticed a Marathi word
ghaavan 'stone mortar'. I don't know Marathi, or exactly what sort of
mortar this is. That said, please accept the wild guess of a possible
connection.


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From emstern at NNI.COM  Fri Jul 10 15:56:06 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 11:56:06 -0400
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b1c8dcebf0f7@[134.59.129.66]>
Message-ID: <161227040760.23782.8953584719560084776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm not sure who introduced these utterances into the discussion, but I
have a simple question about the second one.

* vAkyam uvaca rAmam
* dAnaM dadau rAmam

If the asterisks before these utterances do *not* mean that these are
incorrect utterances, will somebody please direct me to a grammatical
authority who sanctions the double accusative with daa?

(I would expect only

daanaM dadau raamaaya

or

daanaM dadau raamasya)

Thank you in advance.

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From roheko at MSN.COM  Fri Jul 10 09:56:59 1998
From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 11:56:59 +0200
Subject: another Indian pancake question
Message-ID: <161227040728.23782.16408147963406321549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

see DezIn. 6.117 = a sweat cake or so
RoHeKo
roheko at msn.com
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: jonathan silk <jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
<INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Datum: Donnerstag, 9. Juli 1998 22:56
Betreff: another Indian pancake question


>a side question:
>
>        In Divyaavadaana (Cowell & Neil 258.9)
occurs the word
>ma.n.diilaka(a).  While apparently ma.n.daka is a
kind of thin pancake-like
>bread, I cannot discover the meaning of
ma.n.diilaka.  (It is of course
>possible that the text is corrupt...)
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Jonathan SILK
>
>jonathan.silk at yale.edu
>




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Fri Jul 10 10:02:19 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 12:02:19 +0200
Subject: many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040743.23782.10769067438358153098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I thank all those who give me so many pancakes.
        I was mainly interested by the making-off, hence the (a)pUpa of
Kalyanaraman, despite the ancientness quoted by Elliot Stern, is, alas,
useless.
        Similarly the roTI(kA) of Edeltraud Harzer Clear, analysed by
Elliot Stern. I resist to the temptation of latin rota 'wheel' which, in
fact, is linked to ratha ;-(    but portuguese? ;-)
        Mahendra Verma suggests Hindi cillaa but, being inexpert, I was
unable to find a Sanskrit root to this word. A loan-word?
        The ghAvana of Avinash Sathaye is puzzling, not found in
Monnier-Williams, where the nearest form seems to be a root ghuN- 'to go or
move about'. Mayrhofer (KEWA) precises ghuNati, ghoNati or ghUrNati 'moves
to and fro' (only ghUrN- 'waver' in Whitney). The 'n' seems to be in the
root but that's not sure, because MW and M give a link with ghola
'buttermilk', a product of churning. All this could suggest the ghAvana
pancake to be made with a movement (rotative? alternative?). Any precision
in the recipe? I think to the Greek kha(w)os 'original Chaos' (said in some
traditions = Tartaros, agitated by perpetual winds).
        Jonathan Silk suggests maNDaka and the (diminutive?) maNDIlaka.
This last word is given by MW: m. 'a kind of cake' (diyAv.) (hidden after
maNDa). Interesting. Made with cream (maNDa)? or shaped like the war-disk
(maNDala)? In both cases the idea of a rotation is possible (manth- for the
cream and for the poor head of Namuci).
        All this is very useful to me and I hope subsequent advices. Thanks
again,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Fri Jul 10 10:32:36 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 12:32:36 +0200
Subject: double accusatives
In-Reply-To: <01BDAB83.38FD9410@ILIAS>
Message-ID: <161227040746.23782.8228904803025242662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote
>Honestly speaking, you do the same, with your projecting of computing
>procedures to Sanskrit, as regards formal and actual places.

        I confess.

>Mais `gratifier' avec quoi? Le roi a gratifie le prince avec un chateau
>(rouge). Alors, le mot `vAkyam' en cet occasion a la function de
>instrumental?

        I don't believe. Why not a 'caseless' case? I assume the
gratification is the main point, strengthening the dependance relation
between the king and the prince (there is an important difference between
King Arthur who make gifts and later historical kings who prefer to levy
taxes). Hence, I understand the thing given as semantically IN the verbal
group. But I'm not an expert in grammar and my reading of Haudry's
'L'emploi des cas en vedique' is far...
        En tout cas, merci pour votre reponse precise,
Dominique

PS: Why the castle must be red ;-)

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From U.Almoneit at UNI-KOELN.DE  Fri Jul 10 10:49:49 1998
From: U.Almoneit at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ute Almoneit)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 12:49:49 +0200
Subject: IITS Cologne website
Message-ID: <161227040730.23782.6965186718012768132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear indologists,
since our webmasters are on leave until the middle of October, please, in
case of any problem concerning our webpages, wait with your complaints
until they are back.
Thanks,
Ute




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Fri Jul 10 11:06:33 1998
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 13:06:33 +0200
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
In-Reply-To: <v0153050ab1cae6a9c266@[194.134.29.19]>
Message-ID: <161227040733.23782.17262958758172854191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>Dominique Thillaud wrote:
>
>>Sandra van der Geer wrote
>>>I agree with you in considering one accusative the direct object, and the
>>>other accusative the indirect object, or the dative. As we all know, one
>>>and the same function or kAraka can be denoted by several cases.
>>
>>        I can't agree: to take one of both accusatives as a dative is an
>>anchronism, projecting ancient syntax to our own and above all forgiving
>>the pragmatical shift of some verbs. I believe that, in ancient time, to
>>give, to spell and some other ones were direct actions on the receiver,
>>constraining him strongly.
>
>We were talking about an example with the verb 'darzayati' I believe in the
>meaning of 'show'.
>
>That the 2nd accusative of the (theoretical) double accusative construction
>of darzayati was considered an indirect object by the users of the language
>themselves is made plain by the fact that that accusative is much more
>commonly
>replaced by a dative or a genitive.

Pace Panini I feel rather uneasy about the use of meta-grammatical
arguments, because they invite to pressing linguistic data into
preconceived schemes of interpretation. In this case: "tam pustakaM
darzayati" is felt to be equivalent to English "he shows him a book"
(German "er zeigt ihm ein Buch"), and since "him" in this case can be taken
(in analogy to the German "ihm") as an indirect object, we feel entitled to
interprete the accusative "tam", too, as an indirect object. But is it not
more sound to take case endings seriously and to understand the sanskrit
sentence as "he makes him see a book", where we feel no doubt about the
direct object character of both "him" and "the book"? And the fact that
"darzayati" could (since when?) be used with a dative or genitive shows
only that its semantics gradually shifted into the direction of "to show"
(i.e. "to give someone something to see") so that it could be used in
analogy to verbs like "dA". But that does not entitle us in my opinon to
call the accusative "tam" an "indirect object".
 Georg v. Simson




From Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR  Fri Jul 10 12:09:06 1998
From: Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR (Boris Oguibenine)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 14:09:06 +0200
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b1cb9e7cfe42@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227040736.23782.13342493891610702320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 13:06 10/07/98 +0200, vous avez ?crit :
>Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>>Dominique Thillaud wrote:
>>
>>>Sandra van der Geer wrote
>>>>I agree with you in considering one accusative the direct object, and the
>>>>other accusative the indirect object, or the dative. As we all know, one
>>>>and the same function or kAraka can be denoted by several cases.
>>>
>>>        I can't agree: to take one of both accusatives as a dative is an
>>>anchronism, projecting ancient syntax to our own and above all forgiving
>>>the pragmatical shift of some verbs. I believe that, in ancient time, to
>>>give, to spell and some other ones were direct actions on the receiver,
>>>constraining him strongly.
>>
>>We were talking about an example with the verb 'darzayati' I believe in the
>>meaning of 'show'.
>>
>>That the 2nd accusative of the (theoretical) double accusative construction
>>of darzayati was considered an indirect object by the users of the language
>>themselves is made plain by the fact that that accusative is much more
>>commonly
>>replaced by a dative or a genitive.
>
>Pace Panini I feel rather uneasy about the use of meta-grammatical
>arguments, because they invite to pressing linguistic data into
>preconceived schemes of interpretation. In this case: "tam pustakaM
>darzayati" is felt to be equivalent to English "he shows him a book"
>(German "er zeigt ihm ein Buch"), and since "him" in this case can be taken
>(in analogy to the German "ihm") as an indirect object, we feel entitled to
>interprete the accusative "tam", too, as an indirect object. But is it not
>more sound to take case endings seriously and to understand the sanskrit
>sentence as "he makes him see a book", where we feel no doubt about the
>direct object character of both "him" and "the book"? And the fact that
>"darzayati" could (since when?) be used with a dative or genitive shows
>only that its semantics gradually shifted into the direction of "to show"
>(i.e. "to give someone something to see") so that it could be used in
>analogy to verbs like "dA". But that does not entitle us in my opinon to
>call the accusative "tam" an "indirect object".
> Georg v. Simson
>
>


It is however useful to recall that "tam pustakaM darzayati/dadAti" can be
analyzed as possessing three semantic roles.The agent "he" acts upon "a
book" which is an affected object or patient and upon "him" which is the
recipient. On the other hand a current distinction is between the high
transitivity (a book is given or given to see) and the low transitivity
("he" is only secondarily affected by the agent). The point is that
"pustakam darzayati/dadAti" is a complete utterance, whereas"*tam
darzayati/dadAti" is an ellipsed utterance which may be understood
adequately, only if an additional information about the object of high
transitive verb (which information may be recovered from a foregoing
sentence or the general context or the accompanying gestures), is provided.
Thus the two verbs are semantically akin, but their semantic features are
distributed differently depending upon the semantic roles involved.

Boris Oguibenine




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul 10 21:13:07 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 14:13:07 -0700
Subject: kaTha upanishad IV. 1
Message-ID: <161227040763.23782.17241928279351541575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>A sub-question to the above - kshemarAja's quotation reads AvRtta
>>cakshur amRtatvaM aSnan, whereas the standard reading is AvRtta
cakshur
>>amRtatvaM icchan. The difference is not without significance. Is aSnan
a
>>reasonably well-known variant?
>>
>>Vidyasankar
>>
>-----------------------
>
>Though I have no answer to the questions posed, may I just comment that
>Jaideva Singh's English translation (The Secret of Self-recognition, p.
97)
>says "wishing to taste immortality." (The aSnan version is printed
there as
>well.) Did Singh perhaps try to incorporate both versions somehow?
>
>Yoshi Onishi

Perhaps so. However, the context of the quotation under sUtra 18 of the
text is the description of Sakti-sankoca (the turning inwards of
consciousnes) as a means to vikalpa-kshaya. So the translation does not
seem very far from kshmerAja's intent.

I sent a private response to Mani yesterday, re: the identity of the
kaThavallI, but I suppose other list-members would also be interested.
It seems clear that kshemarAja does have the familiar kaTha upanishad in
mind, since he quotes the entire verse beginning with parAnci khAni etc.
This is indeed the first verse of the fourth vallI, which marks the
beginning of the second adhyAya of the kaTha upanishad.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Jul 10 20:23:36 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 16:23:36 -0400
Subject: Brahma-Vidya (Adyar Library Bulletin) found
Message-ID: <161227040764.23782.9362813571808835631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For Indology and SACAP:

I managed to delete a query from someone requesting a photocopy from
Brahmavidya (Adyar Library Bulletin), v. 8 (1944), probably from one of
these lists.  I have the volume by me.  Would the person making the request
please contact me?

Allen Thrasher


Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Jul 10 20:37:29 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 16:37:29 -0400
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227040766.23782.4101649155903088694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Elliott Stern was asking about the form:

* dAnaM dadau rAmam

This is not directly related to his question, but in Latin inscriptions
commemorating donations one routinely finds the form Donum dedit, often
abbreviated D.D.  This leads one to think it's an Ur-IE legal formula,
however you interpret its grammar and semantics.

Allen Thrasher

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Jul 10 20:40:15 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 16:40:15 -0400
Subject: Double accusative
Message-ID: <161227040768.23782.12612299461357332759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Elliott Stern was asking about the form:

* dAnaM dadau rAmam

This is not directly related to his question, but in Latin inscriptions
commemorating donations one routinely finds the form Donum dedit, often
abbreviated D.D.  This leads one to think it's an Ur-IE legal formula,
however you interpret its grammar and semantics.

Allen Thrasher

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov




From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU  Fri Jul 10 07:42:45 1998
From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 17:42:45 +1000
Subject: Hindi/Urdu word "Shabhash"
Message-ID: <161227040723.23782.17326495926459554611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Shaabaash 'well done!': According to John Platts [A Dictionary of Urdu,
Classical Hindi and English, 1884, Munshiram Manoharlal(Delhi) reprint
1993, p. 716] shaabaash is from the Persian shaad 'pleased, delighted' +
baash, the imperative of buudan 'to be'.

Richard Barz


>I am looking for historical or etymological information on the Hindi/Urdu
>word "Shabhash", often used as a term of encouragement especially in
>artistic contexts.  I am not sure if I have even transliterated it
>correctly, but the Telugu manuscript in which I have found it spells it
>as "ShAbhAshu". Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>Devesh Soneji




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Fri Jul 10 15:48:36 1998
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 17:48:36 +0200
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
In-Reply-To: <v0302090bb1cbcdda3cbd@[130.132.186.108]>
Message-ID: <161227040757.23782.8396043104682762823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jonathan Silk wrote:
>I really very much hesitate to enter this discussion, which I but poorly
>understand, but my friend Georg said something which prompted a thought:
>
>> But is it not
>>more sound to take case endings seriously
>
>Is not the really crucial issue the one alluded to by Boris, namely
>"semantic roles"? In other words, at least from the Indian viewpoint should
>not the discussion be framed in terms of kaaraka theory, rather than case
>endings?  (But probably I have thoroughtly misunderstood the argument, in
>which case please ignore my babbles.)
>
Of course, we are talking about semantic roles or kArakas. But case endings
are *normally* correlated with a semantic role, and my point was that we
should not without necessity disregard such a normal correlation. The "low
transitivity" Boris Oguibenine was talking about, is not the same as the
role of "indirect object", and his analysis

> It is however useful to recall that "tam pustakaM darzayati/dadAti" can be
> analyzed as possessing three semantic roles.The agent "he" acts upon "a
> book" which is an affected object or patient and upon "him" which is the

does not quite convince me because you cannot say "taM pustakaM dadAti". It
is true that with transitive verbs there is a primary object and a
secondary object, but, as examples with intransitive verbs show ("dUtaM
grAmaM gamayati"), the person affected can and should still be taken as a
direct object (see also the conversion into passive, discussed earlier). It
is therefore I suggest in the case of darzayati a semantic shift from "he
makes someone (acc.) see something (acc.)" to "he makes something (acc.)
seen=visible to somebody (dat., later also gen.)." That seems to me a
better strategy than to jump to the conclusion that an accusative ending
can express the role "indirect object".

   Georg v. Simson




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Jul 11 01:06:17 1998
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 18:06:17 -0700
Subject: Sarasvati Sindhu Indus civilization, soma, language,              script and inscriptions
Message-ID: <161227040773.23782.4233869343893076086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,

Finally!

I am happy to announce a new multi-media
web http://sarasvati.simplenet.com
dedicated to the following indological resources:
Indus civilization (Sarasvati Sindhu civilization),
language, script, inscriptions,
Sarasvati river (historic legacy and developmental challenge);

decipherment of script and pictorials,
decipherment of inscriptions,
decipherment of soma in the Rigveda.

The language resources include an Indian Lexicon
covering over 500,000 ancient words of all Indian
languages framed in over 8000 etyma groups.

The Lexicon is presented in multiple clusters:
alphabetical, semantic and by English meanings.
The format is ITRANS compliant enabling the display of any
selected word in any Indian language script.
Advanced search facility is provided
by english meaning, by language lexeme.

The civilization artefacts presented from the finds of
a large number of archaeological sites include
copper-bronze weapons and lapidary crafts and
matched with many inscriptions.

A preliminary Indian Hieroglyphic Dictionary is
presented and is a result of proceeding
from the known to the unknown--
from Mesopotamian cuneiform inscriptions and
resolution of Gadd Seal 1
to Sumerian substrate language
to the dawn of bronze-age,
to Indian language and script,
governed by a langue formulation:
image = sound = meaning.

In sum, new light rises on the contribution of
armourers as civilization ca. 3000 B.C.
launched into the metals age of bronze,
soma (electrum) and the PAROLE (lingua franca)
covering a wide spectrum of
semantic categories and dialects.

Would deeply appreciate receiving critical comments.

Best regards,
Dr. S. Kalyanaraman
10 July 1998
kalyan99 at netscape.net

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Fri Jul 10 23:16:08 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 18:16:08 -0500
Subject: many pancakes
In-Reply-To: <35A63105.E8BDC573@ms.uky.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040770.23782.1614165338280109088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rolf Heiner Koch wrote:
>see DezIn. 6.117 = a sweat cake or so

What Dezinaamamaala 6.117 with commentary actually has is: ma.m.dillo
apuupa.h/  (For this Pischel/Ramanujaswami have in the glossary is "a small
round cake [f(rom) ma.m.dila]" No justification is given for this
understanding. But in any case, while I suspect this is related, it is not
the same form.)

Then, Dominique Thillaud wrote:

>>         Jonathan Silk suggests maNDaka and the (diminutive?) maNDIlaka.
>> This last word is given by MW: m. 'a kind of cake' (diyAv.) (hidden after
>> maNDa). Interesting. Made with cream (maNDa)? or shaped like the war-disk
>> (maNDala)? In both cases the idea of a rotation is possible (manth- for the
>> cream and for the poor head of Namuci).

And Avinash Sathaye added:


>My  book also has a recipe for maNDaka (termed maa.nDe in Marathi) and it is
>like a very thin
>and crisp version of roTii. It is to be roasted on the BOTTOM part of a clay
>pot (sort of like
>the Crepes) but it uses a thick kneaded dough, rather than  batter! The word
>probably refers to
>the shape, the professional versions are indeed as big as 1.5 feet in
>diameter!
>(They just use a big
>skillet and not a clay pot though!)
>

These still do not solve my essential problem. MW cites exactly the passage
I am trying to illucidate, so he definition is useless to me. I have
assumed that ma.n.diilaka is indeed some sort of diminutive, and that it is
probably some sort of round cake, but what I would really like to find is
whether the word appears anywhere else at all.  No help in that department?

Jonathan SILK

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Sat Jul 11 01:23:19 1998
From: khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Katja Hofmann)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 03:23:19 +0200
Subject: Australia,ALB 1944
Message-ID: <161227040775.23782.4632726408415780635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

hi Royce,
i losed today all informations, could you try again to connenct me ?
I'm happy about your willingness to help me.
Katja




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jul 11 10:52:03 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 15:52:03 +0500
Subject: many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040778.23782.12655692249063971355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:02 PM 7/10/98 +0200, you wrote:

>        Jonathan Silk suggests maNDaka and the (diminutive?) maNDIlaka.
>This last word is given by MW: m. 'a kind of cake' (diyAv.) (hidden after
>maNDa). Interesting. Made with cream (maNDa)? or shaped like the war-disk
>(maNDala)? In both cases the idea of a rotation is possible (manth- for the
>cream and for the poor head of Namuci).
>        All this is very useful to me and I hope subsequent advices. Thanks
>again,
>Dominique
>
According to suryarAyAndhra nighaNTu (A eight volume telugu dictionary)

maMDega= "a preparation made with fine wheat flour and ghee(ghRtam=clarified
butter)". kannaDa:'maMDage','maMDige'. tamil:'maMdihai'.sanskrit:'maNDakaH'

One lexicon (sabdaratnAkara)says it is sugarless puri (thin wheat flour
pancake fried in oil or ghee).

regards,

sarma.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Sat Jul 11 18:23:08 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 19:23:08 +0100
Subject: excommunication
Message-ID: <161227040781.23782.14467669634587636569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Again not related to India, but just so as not to leave the wrong impression
on non-European readers.

Yaroslav Vassilkov wrote:

>Well known example: there was no particular battle in the mountains
>with the "Saracenes", which is glorified in the Old French "Song of Roland",
>but its description absorbed the features of many real battles and the song
>itself reflects, we may say, the centuries of political confrontation on the
>southern borders of France between Christians and Muslims, Frenchmen - and
>Arabs and even Basques.

Well known example? You must be thinking of the "Slovo a polku Igoreve" :-)

What is well known to me is that there *was* a particular battle (not with
the "Saracenes" but with the Basques) on the 15th of August 778 at Roncevaux
in the Pyrenees where "Roland, le comte de la marche de Bretagne" (don't
know how to say this in English; the actual text of the chronicle is of
course in Latin) was killed while leading the rearguard of that Charles who
was later to become Chalemagne (at the time he wasn't yet emperor and not
even king)

Clearly the epic distorts the facts and includes many elements that have
nothing to do with history (even Germanic influences, if I remember cor-
rectly, e.g. the name of the emir "Ganelon", an entirely fictional character,
clearly) but the central theme of the epic does have its root in a (relatively
minor) historical event.

Btw, I was only kidding about the "Slovo". That epic too is rooted in a
historical event, namely the expedition of prince Igor' Svjatoslavic against
some Turkish people, in 1185. (Of course there have been questions about
the authenticity of the text, but that is a completely different probl?me.)




From roheko at MSN.COM  Sat Jul 11 17:48:54 1998
From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 19:48:54 +0200
Subject: many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040816.23782.16371851738156623628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please have a look to Edgerton's BHSD sv the word
you ask for.
illa is in Prakrit the same as ika
RoHeKo
roheko at msn.com
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: jonathan silk <jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
<INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Datum: Samstag, 11. Juli 1998 00:18
Betreff: Re: many pancakes


>Rolf Heiner Koch wrote:
>>see DezIn. 6.117 = a sweat cake or so
>
>What Dezinaamamaala 6.117 with commentary
actually has is: ma.m.dillo
>apuupa.h/  (For this Pischel/Ramanujaswami have
in the glossary is "a small
>round cake [f(rom) ma.m.dila]" No justification
is given for this
>understanding. But in any case, while I suspect
this is related, it is not
>the same form.)
>
>Then, Dominique Thillaud wrote:
>
>>>         Jonathan Silk suggests maNDaka and the
(diminutive?) maNDIlaka.
>>> This last word is given by MW: m. 'a kind of
cake' (diyAv.) (hidden after
>>> maNDa). Interesting. Made with cream (maNDa)?
or shaped like the war-disk
>>> (maNDala)? In both cases the idea of a
rotation is possible (manth- for the
>>> cream and for the poor head of Namuci).
>
>And Avinash Sathaye added:
>
>
>>My  book also has a recipe for maNDaka (termed
maa.nDe in Marathi) and it is
>>like a very thin
>>and crisp version of roTii. It is to be roasted
on the BOTTOM part of a clay
>>pot (sort of like
>>the Crepes) but it uses a thick kneaded dough,
rather than  batter! The word
>>probably refers to
>>the shape, the professional versions are indeed
as big as 1.5 feet in
>>diameter!
>>(They just use a big
>>skillet and not a clay pot though!)
>>
>
>These still do not solve my essential problem. MW
cites exactly the passage
>I am trying to illucidate, so he definition is
useless to me. I have
>assumed that ma.n.diilaka is indeed some sort of
diminutive, and that it is
>probably some sort of round cake, but what I
would really like to find is
>whether the word appears anywhere else at all.
No help in that department?
>
>Jonathan SILK
>
>jonathan.silk at yale.edu
>




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Sun Jul 12 07:27:56 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 23:27:56 -0800
Subject: Pancake
Message-ID: <161227040789.23782.4437421073663585857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Two Marathi words po.laa (different from po.lii, the Marathi synonym for capaatii; plural po.le) and dhira.de (written form; the actual form heard has a slightly lengthened vowel "a" in the place of "e"; plural dhira.dii) have not so far been mentioned in this discussion. Molesworth (p. 440, p. 534) does not give any etymologies or language family affiliations for these two lexemes. If Avinash Sathaye's book contains recipes for these, I hope he will reproduce them. 

An uneven exterior, frequently marked by holes (something like a beehive), is common in the case of these items. This suggests that Hindi (etc.) cilla might be related to Skt chidra. 

In Marathi, a beehive is  called po.la (lengthened closed, sa.mv.rta "a"), but that word is neuter, whereas po.laa mentioned above is masc. 

ghaavan could be related to Skt graavan, as the soaked lentil or dal used for it was in olden days turned into paste using tools made of stone. Now blenders and food processors are used for the same purpose.  

In translating verse 214 of Vidyakara's Subhaa.sita-ratna-ko;sa (ed. by D.D. Kosambi and V.V. Gokhale; Harvard Or. Ser.), D.H.H. Ingalls uses 'pancake' for  parpa.ta of the original: 

"The summer breaks the tight embrace
of God Naaraaya.na and Goddess ;Srii
already sleepy from the ocean?s rocking
of their water dripping palace.
And now the sun's fierce rays
do fry the moon, deprived of all its splendor,
as if it were a pancake
on the heated potsherd of the sky."

(I would use " sleeping inspite of" where Ingalls has "already sleepy from".)

To me, it seems that   parpa.ta is Skt for  pappa.dam, commonly served in Indian restaurants and south Indian homes.

(The origianl of the verse cited above is ascribed to poet Naaraaya.na-lacchii [= Lak.smii], but it is likely that the poet got this name/epithet because of striking imagery he employed in the verse.) 

-- ashok aklujkar




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Sun Jul 12 07:31:15 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 23:31:15 -0800
Subject: "I love you" (in Sanskrit, Tamil, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980704174812.007fb960@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <161227040791.23782.3166194076092814294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 17:48 +0000 04-07-98, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote:
>while reading one KuRaL distich that contains
the love utterance <<vERu allam>>  "we are not distinct",
I had the feeling that a possible unsophisticated translation
(for a 20th century reader ...)
might be "I love you". I don't think the lover should be
made into a philosopher saying "there is no duality
between you and me!".
So the question is:
are there similar ways of expressing love feelings
 in sanskrit literature?<

There are many Sanskrit love poems in which the feeling 'there is no duality between you and me' is expressed.  I will give you a few examples if you absolutely need them.  Otherwise, let us both save time.




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Sun Jul 12 07:38:44 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 23:38:44 -0800
Subject: B.rhatii edn particulars
Message-ID: <161227040793.23782.10024772395028165123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is a question for Miimaa.msaa specialists and librarians on the list.

I have four volumes of Prabhaakara's B.rhatii published in the Madras University Sanskrit Series. They are numbered I, II, IV and V. However, between II (published as MUSS no. 24 in 1962) and IV (published as MUSS no. 25 in 1964), I do not find any text missing that could have required another volume. Is the absence of volume III then due to an error in numbering? Are there any sets in which the numbering is corrected? 




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jul 12 04:11:04 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 00:11:04 -0400
Subject: Turtles in Vedic Sacrifice and the Dravidian concept of sacrifice
Message-ID: <161227040786.23782.4759748196887551023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a CT poem, the longing of hero's heart for the company of his beloved is
compared to the desire of the turtle in/near the vedic sacrificial pit with
rising fire, for the pond with (cool) shade.

kariyA pUvin2 periyOr Ara
azal ezu tittiyam aTutta yAmai
nizal uTai neTu kayam pukal vETTAGku
uLLutal Ompumati in2i nI muL eyiRRu
cil mozi arivai tOLE pal malai
vevvaRai marugkin2 viyan2 curam
evvam kUra iRantan2am yAmE              (akanAn2URu 361.10-16)

The word used for the vedic sacrificial pit is "tittiyam". Can anybody tell me
the corresponding Sanskrit word?

Interestingly, the poet uses the word "vETTAGku" (from the root vEL- to
desire) to indicate the turtle "desiring"/"seeking" the pond. The same verb
could also be used to indicate "sacrificing". From this, it looks as if the
Dravidian concept of the sacrifice (vELvi) was that it was desire-based and
not praise-based. In view of the techniques of suggestion employed in these
poems, the hero's suffering in the hot dry land away from his beloved in the
course of seeking his fortune is like a sacrifice.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jul 12 00:34:39 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 02:34:39 +0200
Subject: excommunication
Message-ID: <161227040783.23782.18350012019049250711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Well known example? You must be thinking of the "Slovo a polku Igoreve" :-)
>
>
>Btw, I was only kidding about the "Slovo". That epic too is rooted in a
>historical event, namely the expedition of prince Igor' Svjatoslavic against
>some Turkish people, in 1185. (Of course there have been questions about
>the authenticity of the text, but that is a completely different probl?me.)

Excuse me for an utterly non-Indological question:

Would this be the Igor of the Borodin opera Prince Igor??

By the way, ancient epics of all sorts are usually made up of standard
legendary/mythical material ("literary archetypes") interspersed with
nuggets of historical material that is often difficult to identify, not to
say verify. Just look at the description of Attila in Germanic epics! A
clear warning not to read too much history into the Niebelungen story. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul 12 07:08:16 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 03:08:16 -0400
Subject: B.rhatii edn particulars
In-Reply-To: <v04003a01b1ce16cc09b3@[207.23.94.148]>
Message-ID: <161227040795.23782.3474880170690194265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>This is a question for Miimaa.msaa specialists and librarians on the list.
>
>I have four volumes of Prabhaakara's B.rhatii published in the Madras
>University Sanskrit Series. They are numbered I, II, IV and V. However,
>between II (published as MUSS no. 24 in 1962) and IV (published as MUSS
>no. 25 in 1964), I do not find any text missing that could have required
>another volume. Is the absence of volume III then due to an error in
>numbering? Are there any sets in which the numbering is corrected?

The cover of MUSS no. 24 published in 1962 clearly says Part II, The series
title page (I think that is what is called) in my copy reads Part III, but
it appears as though the third stroke of III was penned in.

I think the solution is that Zaalikanaatha's BhASyapariziSTa [tarkapAda],
published as MUSS No. 3 Part II, under the general title BRhatii of
Prabhaakara Mizra,is considered as volume 2 of BRhatii. But after MUSS no.
24 was printed, and its cloth cover stamped as Part II, somebody must have
realized that there was already a Part II (even though it wasn't really
BRhatii), so some effort was made to mark at least some of the already
printed copies as Part III. MUSS no.25 then had to be published as Part IV,
etc.

So, Ashok, you're got all there is of BRhatii.

Best wishes,

Elliot


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Sun Jul 12 06:06:13 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 08:06:13 +0200
Subject: double accusative (was Re: passive of causatives)
In-Reply-To: <l03110703b1cbe778bafa@[206.205.247.53]>
Message-ID: <161227040797.23782.8156024461235171365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        You're absolutely right, raamam is wrong. I'm the culprit. I've
mixed too quickly grammar and extra-linguistic considerations.
        I apologize,
Dominique

 >I'm not sure who introduced these utterances into the discussion, but I
>have a simple question about the second one.
>
>* vAkyam uvaca rAmam
>* dAnaM dadau rAmam
>
>If the asterisks before these utterances do *not* mean that these are
>incorrect utterances, will somebody please direct me to a grammatical
>authority who sanctions the double accusative with daa?
>
>(I would expect only
>
>daanaM dadau raamaaya
>
>or
>
>daanaM dadau raamasya)
>
>Thank you in advance.
>
>Elliot M. Stern
>552 South 48th Street
>Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
>USA
>
>telephone: 215 747 6204


Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Sun Jul 12 07:43:32 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 09:43:32 +0200
Subject: pancake's making
Message-ID: <161227040799.23782.2966763139778756945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Avinash Sathaye,
        Many thanks for your very complete answer.
        Apparently, for the maNDaka, 'very thin' and 'thick kneaded dough'
seems contradictory, but I've seen old Italian pizzaioli making very big
and thin pizzas, doing jump and turn the initially small and thick disk in
their both hands with an astonishing dexterity. Do you believe the same
knack could be known in India?
        Namaste,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Sun Jul 12 09:05:01 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 11:05:01 +0200
Subject: excommunication
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b1cd4cb976a7@[194.134.29.12]>
Message-ID: <161227040819.23782.18247207676952792454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>What is well known to me is that there *was* a particular battle (not with
>the "Saracenes" but with the Basques) on the 15th of August 778 at Roncevaux
>in the Pyrenees where "Roland, le comte de la marche de Bretagne" (don't
>know how to say this in English; the actual text of the chronicle is of
>course in Latin) was killed while leading the rearguard of that Charles who
>was later to become Chalemagne (at the time he wasn't yet emperor and not
>even king)

        Not so simple. 'This' story is an historical romance reconstructed
from various and very partial (both meanings) roman sources, but ignoring
the arabic ones. I can give them off-list (in French) if someone is
interested.
        Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sun Jul 12 17:11:14 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 11:11:14 -0600
Subject: many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040806.23782.1243014200946585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Are dOsais also pancakes?!
N. Ganesan

*******************************************************************

Just like great people are ever humble, paddy plants heavy with
grain ears bow their heads. Mixing rice from such a morals-teaching plant
together with black grams whose peels remind us of Thirumaal, grinding
to a watery paste, fermenting for a day, dosa pancakes are made
over a skillet. Getting the dosa as full moon out of the pan is an art!



  cuulin  n^iraiyinaal  cuTarmuTi  paNin^tu
  meelin  n^ilaiyavar  vaazhn^eRi  viLakkum
  caalip  payirkkatir  caarn^taveN ariciyai
  maalin  vaNNamaam  maiyaar  uzhuntuTan
  paalin  n^iRampool  paTiya  araittu
  oorn^aaL  n^anku  puLittu
  vaarkkat  toocai  vaTTa   n^ilaavee.
                                        - N. Ganesan
____________________________________________________________________
Development from a Chintamani poem.

53. col arum cuul pacum paampin_ tooRRam pool,
mellavee karu iruntu, iin_Ru, meel alaar
celvamee pool, talai niRuvit, teernta nuul,
kalvi ceer maantarin_ iRainci, kaayttavee.

                               -   ciivaka cintaamaNi
____________________________________________________________________



               .--.     o       .--.                  .--.
    .___    _  | .|  ______   ._|_ |  ____  .____ .   | .|  ______ .____
    |_|__  ( \   || / /\ |    | |_ | / /\ \ |  |  |  |  || / /\ |  |  |
  0(__/ |_  O \_/   O \/ |    |  _)  \)\/ / |  |  v_/|__)  O \/ |  |  |
  \_____/                                     /
    o                     o                                .--.    o
 _    .    .___  .     .____ . .   __  .       .   .  _____|__| .___   .___ .
( \   |    |_|__ |     |  |  | |  |  | | /\    |   | / /\ /\ || | |_   |_|_ |
 O \_/    (__) | |____ |  |  | |__|__| |_|/_   |___| O \/ \/ |  |  _) (_./_)J
                         /   |____|      /                            (___/



   ___              .--.     o       .--.                                   o
  / (_) .   __   _  | .|  ______   ._|_ |  ____   _    . .     .  ___  . .____
  [  _  |  |  | ( \   || / /\ |    | |_ | / /\ \ ( \   | |  |  | (  /  | |  |
  \_(_) |__|__|  O \_/   O \/ |    |  _)  \)\/ /  O \_/  v_/|__)  O L__| |  |
                                                                           /
                   o    ___            .--.       .--.            o
   ___  . .____ .  .   /   \ .___   ._ |_.|    ___| .|  _  ___  .___  . .___
  (  /  | |  |  |_( )_ |_  | | |_  (  V  )|   (  /  || ( \| |   |_|_  | |_|_
   O L__| |  |     \.  (_) | |  _)  ____/      O L__|   O | |  (_./_) |(_./ )
                   /               /                                  \____/
    o
.   __
|  |  |
|__|__|




                  .--.    o              .--.    o     o             .--.    o
   .___ .____  _  | .| .   .   .   . .   | .| .____  .___   .___   ._|_ | .____
   |_|_ |  |  ( \   || |   |   |   | |  |  || |  |   |_|_   |_|_   |_|_ | |  |
  (__)  |  |   O \_/   |___|   |___| v_/|__)  |  |  (_./_) (_./_) (_./ )  |  |
                                                /                     /     /
                 o     o          ___               o               .--.   .--.
   .___ .____ .____ .___   .___  /   \  ___  .  ________     o    ._|__|  .|__|
   |_|_ |  |  |  |  | |_   |_|_  |_  | (  /  | / /\ /\ |   ___\_| |  | |  |_|_|
  (__)  |  |  |  |  |  _) (_./ ) (_) |  O L__| O \/ \/ |   \__/ | |  |   (__)
                /             /                                     /

 ____  .     .
/ /\ \ |  |  |
\)\/ / v_/|__)




                    .--.     o                  o
  .   __  .____  _  | .|  ______    ___  .  ________  ________ .   __  .____
  |  |  | |  |  ( \   || / /\ |    (  /  | / /\ /\ | / /\ /\ | |  |  | |  |
  |__|__| |  |   O \_/   O \/ |     O L__| O \/ \/ | O \/ \/ | |__|__| |  |

    o                                     o                       o
.   __     ____  .   __  .     . .____ .____   o.     | .  .   .___   .___ .
|  |  |   / /\ \ |  |  | |  |  | |  |  |  |     _)    | |_( )_ | |_   |_|_ |
|__|__|   \)\/ / |__|__| v_/|__) |  |  |  |    (_____  \   \.  |  _) (_./_)J
                                         /              \__/         (___/
          o
.      ______
|     / /\ |
|____ O \/ |




                  .--.     o       .--.             o    ___
  .   . .____  _  | .|  ______   ._|_ |  ._  _. .   __  / (_) .   . .____
  |   | |  |  ( \   || / /\ |    | |_ | (  V  ) |  |  | [  _  |   | |  |
  |___| |  |   O \_/   O \/ |    |  _)   ____/  |__|__| \_(_) |___| |  |
                                        /
    o                                                  o
 _    .   .   . .     .     .     o     ____  .____  .___   .___ .
( \   |   |   | | /\  |  |  |   ___\_| / /\ \ |  |   |_|_   |_|_ |
 O \_/    |___| |_|/_ v_/|__)   \__/ | \)\/ / |  |  (_./ ) (_./_)J
                  /                             /       /  (___/





    ._.      o                  o               o                       .--.
   /   \  .____ .___  .____  _  ___   .___   ______ . .___    .   .  _  |__|
  ()  ._) |  |  | |_  |  |  ( \| |    | |_  / /\ |  | |_|_    |   | ( \| | |
    o  \  |  |  |  _) |  |   O | |    |  _) O \/ |  |(_./ )   |___|  O | |
    \__/    /                                       \____/        |
   o
 .___   .___ .
 |_|_   |_|_ |
(_./ ) (_./_)J
    /  (___/





                   o     o             o      ___
   ___  . .____ .____  .___   .___   .___    / (_)  .___  .____  ____   .___
  (  /  | |  |  |  |   |_|_   |_|_   |_|_    [  _   |_|_  |  |  / /\ \  |_|_
   O L__| |  |  |  |  (_./_) (_./_) (_./ )   \_(_) (_./ ) |  |  \)\/ / (__)
                  /                     /              /
           o            .--.                ___
 ___  . .     .       ._|_ |  _    . .____ / (_)  ___  .
(  /  | |     |       | |_ | ( \   | |  |  [  _  (  /  |
 O L__| |____ |____   |  _)   O \_/  |  |  \_(_)  O L__| o




From emstern at NNI.COM  Sun Jul 12 15:43:45 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 11:43:45 -0400
Subject: B.rhatii edn particulars - correction
Message-ID: <161227040802.23782.10655019630280711132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>This is a question for Miimaa.msaa specialists and librarians on the list.
>
>I have four volumes of Prabhaakara's B.rhatii published in the Madras
>University Sanskrit Series. They are numbered I, II, IV and V. However,
>between II (published as MUSS no. 24 in 1962) and IV (published as MUSS
>no. 25 in 1964), I do not find any text missing that could have required
>another volume. Is the absence of volume III then due to an error in
>numbering? Are there any sets in which the numbering is corrected?

The cover of MUSS no. 24 published in 1962 clearly says Part II, The series
title page (I think that is what is called) in my copy reads Part III, but
it appears as though the third stroke of III was penned in.

I think the solution is that Zaalikanaatha's BhASyapariziSTa [tarkapAda],
published as MUSS No. 3 Part II, under the general title BRhatii of
Prabhaakara Mizra,is considered as volume 2 of BRhatii. But after MUSS no.
24 was printed, and its cloth cover stamped as Part II, somebody must have
realized that there was already a Part II (even though it wasn't really
BRhatii), so some effort was made to mark at least some of the already
printed copies as Part III. MUSS no.25 then had to be published as Part IV,
etc.

So, Ashok, you're got all there is of BRhatii.

Best wishes,

Elliot

*ADDITION*

I replied in haste sometime after three in the morning (that is, rather
late), and remembered shortly after shutting down the computer, that MUSS
No. 3 (published by the University of Madras in 1936), not only contains
BhASyapariziSTa, but a printed copy of the portion of the Madras Government
Oriental Manuscript Library transcript used for the edition in I, and a
list of variant readings in a second BRhatii ms. in the collection of the
Shringeri Math.

If this volume is not otherwise available to you, and you would like a copy
of all or part, I think my bound xerox copy will copy decently.

Elliot


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sun Jul 12 17:50:00 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 11:50:00 -0600
Subject: Kolam article
Message-ID: <161227040808.23782.10030985257193936791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My article in Tamil with the title, "viruntu uNNa varuka"
(Come, enjoy the feast!) appears in vol. 2, Kolam, Mirror of Tamil culture,
e-journal from IITS. (www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/kolam/...)
This gives an overview of food in Tamil literature from the beginnings.
To read Kolam, two fonts (IITS and Mylai-Sri) need to be in the system.

Comments are welcome to ganesans at cl.uh.edu

Regards
N. Ganesan

Personal note: Wrote this paper when my family was visiting India
and I was really longing for Indian food  :-)




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jul 12 16:01:52 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 12:01:52 -0400
Subject: Questions on "dhiSNya"
Message-ID: <161227040804.23782.12504471628358538420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It looks as if the CT usage "tittiyam", a vedic fire,  might refer to Sanskrit
"dhiSNya" which also has a variant form "dhiSTya" according to Monier
Williams. But the loan phonology has a problem. If the Tamil word was borrowed
directly from the Sanskrit form with retroflex "-ST-", in Tamil we should have
-TT- and not -tt- as we do in "tittiyam". So the source of the Tamil word
could not have had retroflexion. Is "dhiSNya" ever referred to in Pali or
Prakrit as "dhittya" or "dhittiya"? If Pali or Prakrit does not have the form
with dental, could the original form of "dhiSNya" before retroflexion be
"dhisnya" or "dhistya"?

Was this fire used to sacrifice animals such as turtles?

Can the Vedic scholars help? Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Sun Jul 12 11:29:53 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 13:29:53 +0200
Subject: Pancake
In-Reply-To: <v04003a03b1cdd3ac5cff@[207.23.94.192]>
Message-ID: <161227040821.23782.10303983897032745043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

ashok aklujkar wrote:
>In translating verse 214 of Vidyakara's Subhaa.sita-ratna-ko;sa (ed. by
>D.D. Kosambi and V.V. Gokhale; Harvard Or. Ser.), D.H.H. Ingalls uses
>'pancake' for  parpa.ta of the original
>To me, it seems that   parpa.ta is Skt for  pappa.dam, commonly served in
>Indian restaurants and south Indian homes.

        Welcome to this new pancake, well-described by the comparison with
the moon!
        Mayrhover (KEWA) confirm the link with praakr. pappa.da-(ga)- and
many other, like hindii paapar, &c. But he give nothing about etymology,
except a link with Ved. parphariikaa where PTS Pali-English Dictionary, sv.
papa.tikaa, is quoted (but the semantical link seems dubious and the
Sayana's or Yaska's commentary about parphariikaa is very far from the
pancakes).
        Why not parpa 'wheel-chair for cripples'? Or (MW) parpariika 'sun'?
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Sun Jul 12 21:57:14 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 13:57:14 -0800
Subject: B.rhatii edn particulars
In-Reply-To: <l03110700b1ce0ca4dd72@[206.205.247.53]>
Message-ID: <161227040814.23782.3255040199609007500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Elliot, for both of your promptly sent messages. I will try, as far as possible, not to make you take the trouble of photocopying for me. -- ashok




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jul 12 12:40:57 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 17:40:57 +0500
Subject: Many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040800.23782.11998673834860536968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 11 Jul 98 Dominique thillaud wrote:

>Apparently, for the maNDaka, 'very thin' and 'thick kneaded dough'
>seems contradictory, but I've seen old Italian pizzaioli making very big
>and thin pizzas, doing jump and turn the initially small and thick disk in
>their both hands with an astonishing dexterity. Do you believe the same
>knack could be known in India?
>       Namaste,
>Dominique

>Dominique THILLAUD
>Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France

They employ two methods. One is making the thick small disk thin by
pressing it with hands. The second is more spectacular. They throw
the disk up giving it a spin. Due to centrifugal force the disk
stretches itself and becomes thin by the time it lands back in to
the hands of the chef.

regards,

sarma.




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Sun Jul 12 19:09:44 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 19:09:44 +0000
Subject: "I love you" (in Sanskrit, Tamil, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <v04003a04b1cddad10ad6@[207.23.94.192]>
Message-ID: <161227040810.23782.2163370311024137937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>There are many Sanskrit love poems in which the feeling 'there is no
duality >between you and me' is expressed.  I will give you a few examples
if you >absolutely need them.  Otherwise, let us both save time.
>

Professor Aklujkar,

If I did not want to find out, I would not have asked...

So please do find a little time to answer,
since you have now given a short hint.

I don't believe Indology should be restricted to VIM or VVIM
("Very Very Important Matters"),
like discussions on etymology,
early datings or case grammar.

To find out whether certain idioms
are or are not pan-indian is also revealing
for those who come from other linguistic spheres.

In the case of Tamil, the ultimate goal
of "grammatical" studies is to be able to master
the "poruL" section (poetical matters),
where "akam" is probably the most interesting part.

[See the king's reaction in the _kaLaviyal_ [Stolen Love]
commentary when his messengers are not able to find a scholar
who has mastered the "poruL atikAram";
 (He says: ezuttum collum yAppum ArAyvatu
   poruLatikArattin2 poruTTu an2RE?
   "Is it not for the sake of poruLatikAram
   that one studies ezuttu [letters], col [words]
   and yAppu [metrics]?"]

Moreover, the arguments based on same-ness [tamil vERRumai]
vs. one-ness [tamil oRRumai]
are frequent in grammatical commentaries, and I wondered
whether the love reasoning resembled the scholastic
reasoning in Sanskrit (as it does in Tamil).

Thanks for your attention.

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Sun Jul 12 19:33:13 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 19:33:13 +0000
Subject: "I love you" (in Sanskrit, Tamil, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980712190944.007db5f0@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <161227040812.23782.15472880236684031242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 19:09 12/07/98 +0000, I wrote :
>>
>Moreover, the arguments based on same-ness [tamil vERRumai]
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>vs. one-ness [tamil oRRumai]
>are frequent in grammatical commentaries, and I wondered
>whether the love reasoning resembled the scholastic
>reasoning in Sanskrit (as it does in Tamil).
>
>
>-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD
>

I should, of course, have written:

>Moreover, the arguments based on different-ness [tamil vERRumai]
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>vs. one-ness (or same-ness) [tamil oRRumai]
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are frequent in grammatical commentaries, and I wondered
>whether the love reasoning resembled the scholastic
>reasoning in Sanskrit (as it does in Tamil).




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Mon Jul 13 06:15:01 1998
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 01:15:01 -0500
Subject: many pancakes
In-Reply-To: <00d673404220c78UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com>
Message-ID: <161227040823.23782.698561165549380729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rolf Heiner Koch wrote:
>Please have a look to Edgerton's BHSD sv the word
>you ask for.
>illa is in Prakrit the same as ika


BHSD again refers only to Divya.

Concerning -illa = -ika, I could not find this in Pischel 595 (where illa
is discussed, partly as pleonastic, partly as = -vat/-mat). Could you
direct me to a discussion of this, please?

Jonathan SILK

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sun Jul 12 23:01:29 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 03:01:29 +0400
Subject: excommunication
Message-ID: <161227040818.23782.3336941177898837358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

acob Baltuch (July 11) quoted my recent message:
:

>>Well known example: there was no particular battle in the mountains
>>with the "Saracenes", which is glorified in the Old French "Song of Roland"=
,
>>but its description absorbed the features of many real battles and the song
>>itself reflects, we may say, the centuries of political confrontation on th=
e
>>southern borders of France between Christians and Muslims, Frenchmen - and
>>Arabs and even Basques.
and wrote:

<Well known example? ...
<What is well known to me is that there *was* a particular battle (not with
<the "Saracenes" but with the Basques) on the 15th of August 778 at Roncevaux
<in the Pyrenees where "Roland, le comte de la marche de Bretagne" (don't
<know how to say this in English; the actual text of the chronicle is of
<course in Latin) was killed while leading the rearguard of that Charles who
<was later to become Chalemagne (at the time he wasn't yet emperor and not
<even king)

<Clearly the epic distorts the facts and includes many elements that have
<nothing to do with history .... but the central theme of the epic does have
<its root in a (relatively minor) historical event.

        Well, I just wanted to say that real epic

(that is, an epic of oral origin and oral-formulaic style, which we may say
about the "Song of Roland"
but not about the Old Russian "Tale of Igor's Campaign", mentioned by you,
which is, if genuine, an artificial epic, written, by the way, not in verse,
but in rythmical prose) -

the real epic does never describes a particular historical battle, but always
some typical, generalized and idealized event. Yes, there really was the battle
of 778 at Roncevaux, where some Roland was possibly killed (however, I am not
sure that anything mentioned in a chronicle necessarily is a historical fact;
sometimes epic tales find their way in the chronicles!). But you are right,
that battle was with Basques, not with the Saracenes, as in the "Song of
Roland", and the latter used and mixed to it also some details borrowed,
as far as I know, from other historical battles, including the Frenchmens'
defeat in the same mountainous region in the reign of king Dagobert. In the
same way Serbian songs about the battle at Kossovo combined reminicences of
the battle in 1389 with memories of several similar defeats, including the
catastrophic battle of 1457, which really put an end to Serbia's
independance.
        The epic poet may think, of course, that he describes real historical
event, and sometimes a historical name may be preserved by chance in his poem;
but what he really sings about is a typical, ideal battle with typical,
generalized enemy.
        Best regards
                                Yaroslav Vassilkov




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Mon Jul 13 12:51:35 1998
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 08:51:35 -0400
Subject: Many pancakes
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980712174246.34e7abe6@hd1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040829.23782.7134114157312604171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:

> On 11 Jul 98 Dominique thillaud wrote:
>
> >Apparently, for the maNDaka, 'very thin' and 'thick kneaded dough'
> >seems contradictory, but I've seen old Italian pizzaioli making very big
> >and thin pizzas, doing jump and turn the initially small and thick disk in
> >their both hands with an astonishing dexterity. Do you believe the same
> >knack could be known in India?
>
> They employ two methods. One is making the thick small disk thin by
> pressing it with hands. The second is more spectacular. They throw
> the disk up giving it a spin. Due to centrifugal force the disk
> stretches itself and becomes thin by the time it lands back in to
> the hands of the chef.

I've been reading this thread with great interest (just knew that hanging
out here would pay off eventually), and since the question of technique
has come up I'd like to raise a couple of points.

Firstly, the word 'pancake' as used in this context needs clarification. I
believe that in the 'occidental' sense it is use for the cooked result of
thin batter poured on to a hot griddle. (so dosai would be 'pancake', as
would aappam)

The methods described here refer to various ways of making 'breads' of
various kinds. (so all the other items probably classify as 'bread' or
'roti).

If the technique and etymology are to be used in understanding the history
of these entities, I believe this distinction is important. I think that
Avinash Sathaye made this point in his posting.

--Geeta




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Mon Jul 13 12:57:19 1998
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 08:57:19 -0400
Subject: many pancakes
In-Reply-To: <35A63105.E8BDC573@ms.uky.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040831.23782.16186816804670008114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Avinash Sathaye wrote:

> More about pancakes and other nice edibles!
>
> The apuupa is also mentioned in the and is basically Cream of Wheat mixed with
> brown sugar and deep fried in ghee. So not quite a pancake!
>

I believe that apuupa (Tamil appam) today is made from a rice dough that
is patted flat and deep-fried. Achaya mentions it in his book (name
escapes me, and BTW what does this group think of the book?). Does your
source say it is made of cream of wheat? Achaya mentions it i

Again, does your source have anythin on aappam, a pancake-like dish made
from rice-flour batter that contains fresh toddy for fermentation.? I am
most familiar with this as a dish from Kerala or southern Tamil Nadu.
Does Avinash's book have anything about this?

I'm curious about whether there is any substance to the theory that this
'pancake' was an introduction by the Portugese.

--Geeta




From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU  Mon Jul 13 13:14:17 1998
From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 09:14:17 -0400
Subject: pancake's making
Message-ID: <161227040834.23782.9125282993142812245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The art of making the maNDaka (or maa.nDe in Marathi) is very much alive even
today.
The dough is actually rolled out with skill using a rolling pin and not tossed
around by
hand like the pizza dough.

The skill is well appreciated and has even given rise to a saying in Marathi:
##maa.nDekaraNiichaa sheMbuuDa paNa kaaDhaavaa laagato ##
which can be roughly transformed as "you have to even help the blowing of the
nose for one making
maa.nDe". This is used to express the idea that you have to cater to every
little need of someone
who excels in some art.

Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

> Dear Avinash Sathaye,
>         Many thanks for your very complete answer.
>         Apparently, for the maNDaka, 'very thin' and 'thick kneaded dough'
> seems contradictory, but I've seen old Italian pizzaioli making very big
> and thin pizzas, doing jump and turn the initially small and thick disk in
> their both hands with an astonishing dexterity. Do you believe the same
> knack could be known in India?
>         Namaste,
> Dominique
>
> Dominique THILLAUD
> Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Mon Jul 13 09:43:26 1998
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 11:43:26 +0200
Subject: Turtles in Vedic Sacrifice and the Dravidian concept of              sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <9e373ac7.35a8375b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227040825.23782.14655911987609437938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Palaniappan wrote:

>In a CT poem, the longing of hero's heart for the company of his beloved is
>compared to the desire of the turtle in/near the vedic sacrificial pit with
>rising fire, for the pond with (cool) shade.
>
>kariyA pUvin2 periyOr Ara
>azal ezu tittiyam aTutta yAmai
>nizal uTai neTu kayam pukal vETTAGku
>uLLutal Ompumati in2i nI muL eyiRRu
>cil mozi arivai tOLE pal malai
>vevvaRai marugkin2 viyan2 curam
>evvam kUra iRantan2am yAmE              (akanAn2URu 361.10-16)
>
>The word used for the vedic sacrificial pit is "tittiyam". Can anybody tell me
>the corresponding Sanskrit word?
>
and:

> It looks as if the CT usage "tittiyam", a vedic fire,  might refer to
>Sanskrit
>"dhiSNya" which also has a variant form "dhiSTya" according to Monier
> Williams. But the loan phonology has a problem. If the Tamil word was
> borrowed
> directly from the Sanskrit form with retroflex "-ST-", in Tamil we should
>> have
> -TT- and not -tt- as we do in "tittiyam". So the source of the Tamil word
> could not have had retroflexion. Is "dhiSNya" ever referred to in Pali or
> Prakrit as "dhittya" or "dhittiya"? If Pali or Prakrit does not have the form
> with dental, could the original form of "dhiSNya" before retroflexion be
> "dhisnya" or "dhistya"?

"tittiyam" looks to me rather like derived from a Prakrit form "titthiya"
from skt. "tIrthika", derived from "tIrtha"; see Apte, Skt.-Engl. Dict.,
s.v. tIrtham, 20: "(in liturgical language) The path to the altar between
the cAtvAla and the utkara." In Pali, you find "tittika" in the expression
"samatittika" ("brimful", of a river); the word is also written "-titthika"
which is clearly derived from "tIrtha". The loss of the aspiration in Pali
might be due to Dravidian influence? The word appears also in Vinaya texts,
both in Pali and Sanskrit, see Edgerton, Buddh. Hybrid Skt Dict., s.v.
samatIrthika. In the PrAtimokSasUtra of the SarvAstivAdins I meet (in just
one ms.) the form "samatittik(am)" which I translate (following Edgerton):
"(the alms bowl filled) with food to the brim".

Regards,

   Georg v.Simson




From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT  Mon Jul 13 13:35:11 1998
From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 12:35:11 -0100
Subject: Help on an ancient indian stell with sanskrit inscription
In-Reply-To: <v03020900b1cc4eeb909a@[130.132.186.108]>
Message-ID: <161227040827.23782.15974115290384064101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologist



There are a couple of stones with inscriptions in sanskrit in Portugal. Two
of thwm were already decifered almost a century ago. At that period
historians were lookink for a stone that was spoused to be brought from the
temples of Elephanta. After knowing the contents of the inscriptions two of
the stells were excluded but recently it was discovered another one that
was upside down covering the grave of a Vice-King.
I am not a sanscristist neither an epigraphist, I am an anthropologist with
some knowledge of sanskrit and indian history and art. The Stella has three
friezes  with an inscription above that that depictes a sacrifice?
I just start to investigate what my knowledge alows and before to proceed I
would like to herar from some of you.
What is the kind of rock that it is used in the temples of Elefanta? have
you ever heard about a stone that was taken away during the Portuguese
invansions in XVI century in the zone of Salsete?

I am sending some images. The inscriptions in Sanskrit are hard to decifer
even on the original stone.

Thank for the help




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Mon Jul 13 17:53:23 1998
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 13:53:23 -0400
Subject: Many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040845.23782.6627152843539259634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Tamil Nadu, there are many different kinds of 'pancakes'.
As already mentioned tOcai (pronounced as dOsai) and appam are
used. Other examples are 'aDai' and 'aappam'.
In tOcai itself, there are many different kinds, made of  rice, wheat,
red-rice, kuccikkizaGku, ravai, maida etc.
Similarly there are many varieties in appam, aappam, adai. A rough
estimate may be some 25-30 varieties

selvaa




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jul 13 18:19:20 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 14:19:20 -0400
Subject: Joshi and Roodbergen on Panini 1.4.49-51
Message-ID: <161227040846.23782.9452612481572817684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is tangentially related to the question of double accusatives.
Specifically, I am perplexed by how Joshi and Roodbergen deal with
Panini 1.4.49-51, and I will be thankful to anyone who can throw some
light on this.

According to them, ``tathaayokta.m caaniipsitam'' is about double
accusative and ``akathita.m ca'' is a deletion rule that makes sentences
like ``raamaaya dadaati'' correct. The argument for the latter is that
sampradaana assumes a karman which is missing in that sentence, and we
must use 1.4.51 to conclude that a karman present even if unexpressed.

But deletion of the subject is also found: For example MS 1.6.4:
``agni.m vai devaa vibhaaja.m naa"saknuvan ... tam a"svena
puurvavaahodvahan.'' Subject is typically deleted if it is an indefinite
person. We also see verbs deleted when understood from context:
``braahmanebhyo dadhi diiyataam. takra.m kau.n.dinyaaya.'' or an extreme
case (RV 10.168.4c) gho.saa id asya s.r.nvire, na ruupam''. I don't see
why deletion of the understood object needs special treatment, but not
of subject or verb.

I also fail to understand their claim that the object is always
`iipsitatama' of the agent. Surely we can talk about incidental or
accidental occurrences. Extant Sanskrit texts may not have in-your-face
examples like ``snaatiim pa"syan "svapurii.sam am.rdnaat'', but why
can't ``graama.m gacchan v.rk.smuulam upasarati'' refer to an
incidental happening, with the agent not caring if he nears the
tree-root or not?

The statement that secondary object is covered by `tathaa yukta.m
caaniipsitam' is equally puzzling: In ``bali.m vasudhaa.m yaacate'',
I can't see why earth is connected to begging the same way as
Bali is.

I don't understand their comments about causative of passive
(pp.144-147). According to Comrie (Ling. universals and lang. typology)
causative of passive is not common among languages with morphological
causatives. I don't see why we should assume that Panini's Bhaa.saa had
it, unless examples from literature support it.
Regards
-Nath




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Mon Jul 13 18:24:43 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 14:24:43 -0400
Subject: Causatives in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040848.23782.8540470428447874256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The recent thread about passive reminded me about the questions I have
had for a while, about causative and double accusative in Sanskrit. I
hope that members of this list can shed some light on this.

Speyer (sect. 49, p36 of Sanskrit Syntax) says (essentially) that the
case, in the causative construction, of the agent of the simple
(transitive) verb is determined `naturally'. Thus `.r.siin karam
adaapayat' (M.Bharata 1.70.26b) means `(he) made the rsis give tribute';
but `lekha.m "saka.tadaasenaalekhayat' would mean `(he) got the letter
written by S.'

In terms of Panini's rules, this would seem to result if Panini had
simply left out 1.4.52, 53. But, the presence of these rules, especially
the `anyatarasyaam' of 1.4.53, implies that this is not allowed for
other verbs. In that case, how would we make the distinction made above?
The problem is that there are no automatic demotion rules in Sanskrit.
`.r.sibhi.h karam adaapayat' would imply that the rsis were the means or
the cause etc. Now one could presumably say `.r.siin karadaanam
akaarayat'. But it seems odd that this was acceptable whereas `.r.siin
karam adaapayat' was not.

Another observation of Speyer adds to the problem. He says that with the
ta-participle and the gerundive of the causative, the agent of the
simple verb is put in the nominative, even when the active causative would
not admit double accusative.

In languages with morphological causative, the case of the subject of
the simple verb varies. Comrie (in Ling. Universals and Lang. Typology,
the chapter on causatives) says that putting the agent of the simple
verb in accusative is more or less limited languages with double
accusatives. [I presume that he is leaving out languages such as English
in which causative is expressed with a separate verb.] The interesting
thing here is that double accusatives become less common in Sanskrit as
time goes on (Speyer, p.35  fn 1). The apparent conflict on the number
of verbs that allow double accusative in the Bhaa.sya on 1.4.51 may also
be from the same cause. This brings me to the next question: How do
causatives work in Prakrits? How common are double accusatives there?
[This may be silly question because the -aya- would become -e-, which
often forms >simple< presents in Prakrits. But I am not sure that
morphological causatives are totally lost in Prakrits.] What about
Modern Indian languages, IA or not?

-------

Regarding the sentence `daana.m dadau raamam' in the thread:
daana.m dadau is of course possible, like donum dedit. But
wouldn't we translate `daana.m dadau gaam' as `He gave a cow/bull
(as a) gift'?

-------

Regards
-Nath




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jul 13 15:18:51 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 16:18:51 +0100
Subject: [Admin] Maximum size of INDOLOGY postings
Message-ID: <161227040836.23782.316996236908786914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just a general reminder:

The maximum recommended size for an INDOLOGY message is about 2k, i.e.,
about what you can write on a single computer screen.   This limit is
imposed partly as a matter of general good practice, but also because we
have several members -- especially in S. Asia -- who pay by the byte to
receive email data.  It is unfair on these members to post very large
messages, graphics files, etc.

If you have a very long message, graphics file, or whatever, which you
feel should be available to the membership, please contact me directly,
and we'll see whether it can be made available on the INDOLOGY web site,
instead of as email.

Thank you,
Dominik
[Founder of the INDOLOGY list group]

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.

The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 13 23:25:57 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 16:25:57 -0700
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040856.23782.10771272401465055815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>"The explanation is that both of these are, in a sense, living
>languages.... As for Sanskrit, it has consistently acted, and continues
to
>act, as an inexhaustible reservoir of living tissue for the new
Indo-Aryan
>langauges, by supplying them with straight implants [*tatsam*a, 'just
as it
>was', scil. in Sanskrit] or its genetic progeny [*tadbhava* 'derived
from
>that', scil. from Sanskrit]."

For another aspect of this discussion, see "Atlas of the languages and
ethnic communities of South Asia" by Roland J.-L. Breton, Altamira
Press, Walnut Creek, CA, 1997. A small number of people have returned
Sanskrit as their first language in the most recent census in India.
Apparently, the highest numbers were in Chickamagalur district in
Karnataka and in almost every district of Kerala. Breton remarks that
even if this is a result of a conscious wish to make a (political)
statement, it is noteworthy that Varanasi did not return a single
Sanskrit speaker, in spite of the numbers of Skt pundits there.

Irrespective of the motivations of those who gave out Skt as their first
language in the census, doesn't this mean that it is indeed a living
language? Or perhaps a language which a few people are keeping alive?

Vidyasankar

ps. Is Mattur, where people have consciously started speaking in
Sanskrit, in the Chickamagalur district? I thought it was either in
Hassan or in Dakshin Kannada.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From thompson at JLC.NET  Mon Jul 13 21:38:08 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 17:38:08 -0400
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040853.23782.10304823142061341376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just a few brief comments [I got your message, Dominik] in response to
Ashok Aklujkar's interesting post of 7/5/98:

Last year I solicited definitions of, comments on, etc,, the term "dead
language" from the Linguist List. As a result I have a dozen or more pages
of notes from many linguists, most of whom know little or no Sanskrit,
buried somewhere on my desk [I'd had thoughts of writing a paper on the
topic, but perhaps I will never find those notes]. To summarize: they
tended to define 'dead language' as one that had no native speakers, i.e.,
no speakers for whom it was the first language. The typical example was the
Latin of medieval Europe, though several others were mentioned.

Obviously, Latin was an extremely vital language of culture for much of
Europe of that period. It was a different Latin than that of the classical
authors, so there was indeed evidence of it having undergone linguistic
change. But essentially it had become a static language which proved useful
for certain sorts of scientific, religious, and practical matters.

But it was not a language that people *lived* in. Or, to mix the metaphor,
it was not a language that *lived* in people. Thus, Dante, for example,
skilled in Latin though he was, turned to his native language, the language
of his mother and home, to write his *Divine Comedy*. Eventually, of
course, all of Europe did the same.

To what extent has the situation of Sanskrit over the millennia been
different from that of Latin?

BTW, in a recent book, *A Concise Compendium of the World's Languages* [a
1995 condensation of the much larger *Compendium...*, of 1991, by G.L.
Campbell], an interesting exception is made to the rule that the *Concise
Compendium* would include no articles on "dead languages":  while it
contains no article on Latin this compendium *does* contain an article on
Sanskrit, as well as Classical Chinese. Here is the editor's explanation of
this apparent "anomaly" [p. vii]:

"The explanation is that both of these are, in a sense, living
languages.... As for Sanskrit, it has consistently acted, and continues to
act, as an inexhaustible reservoir of living tissue for the new Indo-Aryan
langauges, by supplying them with straight implants [*tatsam*a, 'just as it
was', scil. in Sanskrit] or its genetic progeny [*tadbhava* 'derived from
that', scil. from Sanskrit]."

My 2k must be all used up. Comments anyone?

George Thompson




From roheko at MSN.COM  Mon Jul 13 15:55:09 1998
From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 17:55:09 +0200
Subject: many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040841.23782.14576010415582041936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry Jonathan,
it is my mistake.
RoHeKo
roheko at msn.com
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: jonathan silk <jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
<INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Datum: Montag, 13. Juli 1998 07:13
Betreff: Re: many pancakes


>Rolf Heiner Koch wrote:
>>Please have a look to Edgerton's BHSD sv the
word
>>you ask for.
>>illa is in Prakrit the same as ika
>
>
>BHSD again refers only to Divya.
>
>Concerning -illa = -ika, I could not find this in
Pischel 595 (where illa
>is discussed, partly as pleonastic, partly as
= -vat/-mat). Could you
>direct me to a discussion of this, please?
>
>Jonathan SILK
>
>jonathan.silk at yale.edu
>




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Mon Jul 13 22:15:13 1998
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 18:15:13 -0400
Subject: many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040855.23782.15627032212010452207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Talking of doocai/doose/uuttappam,  pancake/crepe, and all that,  I am
reminded of the menu,  circa 1984,  in Pasand (a popular Indian
restaurant
in San Jose, California) which listed uuttappam as an available item
with the
helpful explanation "thick Indian creep" !!!

-Srini.

Robert J. Zydenbos wrote:

> "Dominique.Thillaud" <thillaud at UNICE.FR> wrote:
>
> >         I'm unable to find what could be the Sanskrit word(s) for
> > 'pancake', id est a thin disk-shaped bread/cake made by a movement
> > of rotation on a pan or in the hands.
>
> What comes closest to a pancake in my experience is a doose
> (Kannada) / doocai (Tamil). Roo.ti etc. is two dry, while a doose
> has something fluffy about it, like a pancake (i.e. the thicker
> variety of pancake; a French crepe or Dutch flensje is of course
> something different).
>
> But there are varieties of doose that resemble a crepe or flensje
> too: for instance, what in Mysore is called a "paper doose". So
> perhaps 'doose' is not such a bad choice after all.
>
> RZ




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Tue Jul 14 02:08:38 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 20:08:38 -0600
Subject: TolkAppiyam
Message-ID: <161227040860.23782.6024729743126333539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 A tolkAppiyam poruL atikAram sUttiram says:

" nATaka vazakkin2um ulakiyal vazakkin2um
 pATal cAn2Ra pulan2eRi vazakkam
 *kaliyE paripATTu Ayiru pAvin2um*
 uriyatu Akum en2man2Ar pulavar. "

This tol. rule essentially says love poems must be written
in either kali or paripATTu meter and this custom is followed by
poets before him.

This contradicts with S. Vaiyapuri Pillai's theory that
tol. was written after Sangam poetry were composed.

In Sangam poetry, majority of older love-akam poems extant today
are in akaval/aaciriyam meter, NOT in kali or paripATal.
The paripATal we have is on Tirumaal (VishNu) and Murukan (Skanda),
one of the earliest bhakti texts of India, but they are not love
poems. kalittokai is also later compared to other sangam
love poetry.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Mon Jul 13 19:37:36 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 20:37:36 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit in the Low Countries (was Re: bookshops...)
Message-ID: <161227040850.23782.5164268224156750597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos wrote:

>You should realise that the Dutch government decided years ago that
>Indology is not important any more [...] so now the Univ. of Leiden
>alone has to hold up the flag of Dutch Indology.

In Belgium only two universities still teach Sanskrit, Ghent and Li?ge.

There was a time when some simple secondary school teachers in Belgium
could produce Sanskrit translations ("Cakuntala", trad. par Frans De
Ville, Office de Publicit?, Bruxelles, 1943).

One Indology dept per 7 million people in Belgium & the Netherlands.




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jul 13 15:32:02 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 21:02:02 +0530
Subject: many pancakes
In-Reply-To: <01IZB7J3FDYQ00FTR9@cl.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040838.23782.10704681869962129563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Dominique.Thillaud" <thillaud at UNICE.FR> wrote:

>         I'm unable to find what could be the Sanskrit word(s) for
> 'pancake', id est a thin disk-shaped bread/cake made by a movement
> of rotation on a pan or in the hands.

What comes closest to a pancake in my experience is a doose
(Kannada) / doocai (Tamil). Roo.ti etc. is two dry, while a doose
has something fluffy about it, like a pancake (i.e. the thicker
variety of pancake; a French crepe or Dutch flensje is of course
something different).

But there are varieties of doose that resemble a crepe or flensje
too: for instance, what in Mysore is called a "paper doose". So
perhaps 'doose' is not such a bad choice after all.

RZ




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jul 13 15:33:08 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 21:03:08 +0530
Subject: bookshops in the Netherlands
Message-ID: <161227040840.23782.17795234568585915712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE> wrote:

> Anybody knows of a bookstore in the Netherlands with a decent
> Sanskrit section (European publishing and/or Indian publishing
> of e.g. M.R.Kale's editions, etc.) and/or a decent IE (lingu.)
> section?

You should realise that the Dutch government decided years ago that
Indology is not important any more (apparently they believe that
all one really needs to know for India is English and some social
science or the other in a 'globalising' world where nobody cares
about culture any longer) so now the Univ. of Leiden alone has to
hold up the flag of Dutch Indology. So Leiden is the place where
you should look for Indological books. There are a few very decent
second-hand bookstores on Asian subjects there (I was there a few
months ago, but sorry, I forgot their names. Brill is one of them).

Au Bout Du Monde in Amsterdam is basically a new-age affair
(somewhat like De Heremiet in Eindhoven), but I remember that the
last time I was there (maybe 20 years ago - really) they had some
serious linguistic materials: dictionaries, grammars etc. from
India (mainly reprints of old publications). There was another such
shop in Amsterdam at the time, which looked more serious and less
fashionable; I believe its name was Van Gelderen, Van Gennep or
something similar, on one of the canals.

Occasionally one can chance upon some fine second-hand items at De
Slegte (branches in Amsterdam, Leiden, Utrecht, Eindhoven,...)

In Germany you could possibly consider visiting Otto Harrassowitz
in Wiesbaden, the *big* Asian bookseller, but I'm afraid that is a
little beyond the 300 km you stipulated from Eindhoven. But first
check whether they have a showroom. I have only ordered books from
them by mail.

RZ




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jul 13 16:44:03 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 21:44:03 +0500
Subject: Many pancakes
Message-ID: <161227040843.23782.9791885490421157462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In tamil the closest to pancake is not 'Dosa' but 'Utappam' or what we are
getting nowadays as 'Set-dosa'. But all of them contain black gram which,
I think, the western pancake does not have. Therefore the similarity is in
shape only not in ingradients.

regards,

sarma.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Mon Jul 13 22:12:23 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 23:12:23 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit in the Low Countries
Message-ID: <161227040851.23782.14313080036990974501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I said one Indology dept per 7 million. More like 8.5 million of course.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Tue Jul 14 12:30:50 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 08:30:50 -0400
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040864.23782.8263718924313903212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To save bandwidth, I am not quoting any of the two previous messages.

The concept of ``mother tongue'' or ``first language'' is problematic
for early bilinguals. And the cases where the dominant (in terms of
variety and frequency of use) lanuage changes over time or is not
the language spoken at home are common enough that some books on
bilingualism avoid the two terms in quotes.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jul 14 13:15:24 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 09:15:24 -0400
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040867.23782.489366649607328096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<"[a
1995 condensation of the much larger *Compendium...*, of 1991, by G.L.
Campbell], an interesting exception is made to the rule that the *Concise
Compendium* would include no articles on "dead languages":  while it
contains no article on Latin this compendium *does* contain an article on
Sanskrit, as well as Classical Chinese. Here is the editor's explanation of
this apparent "anomaly" [p. vii]:

"The explanation is that both of these are, in a sense, living languages.... As
for Sanskrit, it has consistently acted, and continues to act, as an
inexhaustible reservoir of living tissue for the new Indo-Aryan langauges,
by supplying them with straight implants [*tatsam*a, 'just as it was', scil. in
Sanskrit] or its genetic progeny [*tadbhava* 'derived from that', scil. from
Sanskrit].">>

Odd that they would think that Latin and Greek aren't the same, e.g.
neologisms like post-modernism, Eurocentric, gynophobia.  Not to mention
that the revised liturgical books of the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church,
for 950 million people, are composed in Latin before being translated or
adapted into the modern languages.

By the way, are there any Hungarians out there who could confirm or
disconfirm the assertion that Latin was used as a _household_ language by
males of the Hungarian nobility into the 19th c.?

Allen Thrasher

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From emstern at NNI.COM  Tue Jul 14 13:23:06 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 09:23:06 -0400
Subject: Qe: gandhavattvavat
Message-ID: <161227040866.23782.10028563364340897884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While skimming last night a few pages beyond a passage I was reading for my
own research, I noticed a further early source for the example
gandhavattvavat, which Jeson Woo made the subject of a query on 29 August
1997.

UddyotakaraH introduces gandhavattvam in conclusion of his comment on
NyAyasUtram 3.1.3 (NyAyadarzanam, ed. T. Nyaya-Tarkatirtha, 1985: 716.8-11:

pRthivyAdinityatvasAdhane gandhavattvAdiprasaGga iti cet | atha manyase
yadi vyatirekI heturbhavatyanvayamantareNa atha pRthivyAdinityatve sAdhye
gandhavattvaM kasmAnna hetuH | na heturubhayavyAvRtteH |
yasmAdgandhavattvaM nityAccAnityAcca vyAvarttate na punaravyavasthAnamevam
tasmAdavyasthAnaM heturna gandhavattvam

On 29 September 1997, I submitted this reply:

Some time ago (29 August), Jeson Woo inquired:
>
>In order to explicate that existence (sattva) is asAdhAraNAnaikAntika
>hetu, VAcaspatimizra gives 'gandhavattva' as an example in his
>TAtparyaTIkA (NyAyadarzanam, ed. T. Nyaya-Tarkatirtha,1985: 841.9)....
>
>It seems that the 'gandhavattva' is well-known example to both sides of
>debaters. So far, however, I have not succeeded in identifying the source
>of the example.

Within a few days Horst Lasic identified a source, and I contributed a comment.
Today I would like to give further evidence that the example was known, and
how it was understood. jayantaH uses the example at nyAyamaJjarI (ed.
Suryanarayana Sukla) 2.26.5-6:

arthakriyAsamarthasya tvaduktaM sattvamastu vA |
tadapi vyAptiZUnyatvAnna heturgandhavattvavat ||

cakradharaH explains this (nyAyamaJjarIgranthibhaGgaH 192.18-20): *na
heturgandhavattvavat* | yathA gandhavattvaM nityatvenityatve vA na hetuH
tena sahA[nya]trAdRSTeH evaM sarvasya sAdhyatvAt sattvasya kZaNikatvena
sahAnyatrAdRSTiH |


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jul 14 13:27:57 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 09:27:57 -0400
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040869.23782.4820043469152188090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos said:

"In his little book _Lateinisches Mittelalter:
Einleitung in Sprache und Literatur_ Karl Langosch wrote about mediaeval
Latin as the European "father tongue" ("Vatersprache", next to
"Muttersprache"), which I think is a beautiful and accurate expression.
Sanskrit is the Indian Vatersprache. And are fathers less 'living' than
mothers?"

Walter Ong throughout his works has a lot of valuable information and
insight on learned languages as part of male socialization, taught in
circumstances of separation from mothers and other females, and with
considerable infliction of corporal pain, and so not unlike male initiation
rituals in 'tribal' societies.

Allen Thrasher




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jul 14 14:36:34 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 10:36:34 -0400
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040870.23782.10289593365758901077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to RZ's observation:
>
>Questions of what constitutes a 'living language' are obviously
>more subtle than the linguists to whom George Thompson referred
>apparently thought. In his little book _Lateinisches Mittelalter:
>Einleitung in Sprache und Literatur_ Karl Langosch wrote about
>mediaeval Latin as the European "father tongue" ("Vatersprache",
>next to "Muttersprache"), which I think is a beautiful and accurate
>expression. Sanskrit is the Indian Vatersprache. And are fathers
>less 'living' than mothers?
>
Well, I myself wouldn't be so hard on those linguists [who after all
produced a dozen or so pages of more complicated observations]. Probably it
is better to dismiss my very reductive summary of their views as too
simplistic. And I agree that it is.

On the other hand, I did use the terms "vital language" and "dead language"
re Latin with a certain amount of calculation, signalling my own impression
that the situation seemed rather complicated. I'm glad that RZ picked up on
this.

Furthermore, my use of the phrase "the language of his mother and home," to
refer to Dante's Italian was calculated to play off those expressions that
RZ likes, such as Muttersprache and Vatersprache. The metaphor is
interesting.

And finally I cited the *Concise Compendium*'s 'anomalous' article on
Sanskrit precisely to highlight the rather complicated situation that we
find ourselves in when talking about this 'living dead language' which is
called Sanskrit.

I agree with everything that has been said so far, going back to Ashok
Aklujkar's original post....

Agreeably,

GT




From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU  Tue Jul 14 00:52:10 1998
From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 10:52:10 +1000
Subject: many pancakes / -illa suffix
Message-ID: <161227040858.23782.4475927162597142471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Concerning -illa = -ika, I could not find this in Pischel 595 (where illa
>is discussed, partly as pleonastic, partly as = -vat/-mat). Could you direct
>me to a discussion of this, please?
>Jonathan SILK

I think Rolf H. Koch may have had in mind the discussion of -illa / -ila in
MIA  presented by L. A. Schwarzschild in the article below, the context
there is mainly as a suffix for contrastive adjectives and numerals:

'First' 'second' and 'third' in Middle Indo-Aryan JAOS (1962) 82 517-22.
esp. p. 517-18. (Reprint details below).

Schwarzschild says: "  ... in the majority of cases the suffix -illa shows
one of the main characteristics of being a 'slang' suffix: like -kka it is
substituted for the entire final of the word in which it appears ..."

A second conclusion a bit later:

"Everything thus points to a very early substitution of -illa for the
suffix -ima."

For a discussion of -kka see Schwarzschild's article:

Prakrit thakka 'tired' Indian linguistics 1 (1958) p. 317. (Reprint details
below)


Both articles have been reprinted (with indexes) in:

Collected articles of L A Schwarzschild on Indo-Aryan 1953-1979 / compiled
by Royce Wiles. Canberra : Australian National University, 1991.ISBN: 0
7315 1220 0.
Price Australian $30.00 (which is not so much now the A$ continues to slide
downhill)
Available from: www.bibliotech.com.au




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Tue Jul 14 20:56:06 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 14:56:06 -0600
Subject: Fortunatov's law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227040876.23782.1970235305489700896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Palaniappan on 21-jun-98 wrote:
SP>Levitt discusses how *-l- splits into *-l- and *-L- in South and Central
SP>Dravidian and then uses the euphonic combination rules of Tolkappiyam to
SP>explain the basis of Dravidian forms.

S. Palaniappan on 1-jul-98 wrote:
SP>Actually, if we use a transliteration system based on actual Tamil
SP>pronunciation for intervocalic T, and Stephen Levitt's finding of the
SP>split of Dravidian *l into l and L, we shall end up with Fortunatov's
SP>law as one of the results of applying Dravidian morphophonemic rules to l+d
SP>cluster.

S. Palaniappan on 2-jul-98 wrote:
SP>To me it looks as if Fortunatov's law, if we take into account Levitt's
SP>finding regarding the splitting of *l, is almost a restatement of Tamil
SP>morphophonemic rules beginning with tolkAppiyam.

There were two followups by V. Rao to which SP answered.
Also, S. Palaniappan on 9-jul-98 wrote:
SP>So I do not see anything unique about the above situation in Sanskrit which
SP>cannot be explained with a Dravidian origin of retroflexion.

  To me, this finding of relationship between Dravidian phonology and
  Fortunatov's law has important implications for the sociolinguistic
  history of India and origin of retroflexion in IA.

  Is the Dravidian origin of retroflexion on a much firmer ground?
  What do Indologists think?

Regards,
N. Ganesan

I found three references that may be of use.
1) T. Burrow, A reconsideration of Fortunatov's law,
BSOAS, XXXV, 3, 1972, p. 531-545

2) Eric P. Hamp, An amendment of Fortunatov's law,
B. P. Mallik, S. K. Chatterji commemoration volume,
Burdwan, 1981, p. 106-112

3) L. V. Scerba, F. F. Fortunatov (1818-1914) in the History of Science
of language, Historiographia Linguistica,
3, 129-139, 1976




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Jul 14 22:39:41 1998
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 15:39:41 -0700
Subject: Downloadable pictures
Message-ID: <161227040882.23782.17888523586007556690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin,

Mark Kenoyer's pictures of the Indus Valley Civilization are online and can
be downloaded for non-commercial purposes.  Go to:

http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html

Best regards,

Luis

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley


At 09:27 PM 7/14/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear Netters!
>
>Would any of you know of a database where I can find pictures of
>India/Indian art etc that can be downloaded to my computer?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
>Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
>Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
>0674 Oslo
>
>Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
>Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
>Email: lmfosse at online.no
>Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
>
>Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no
>
>




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jul 14 10:10:13 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 15:40:13 +0530
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040862.23782.8222723169864230320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:

> Last year I solicited definitions of, comments on, etc,, the term
> "dead language" from the Linguist List.[...]
> To summarize: they
> tended to define 'dead language' as one that had no native
> speakers, i.e., no speakers for whom it was the first language. The
> typical example was the Latin of medieval Europe, though several
> others were mentioned.

I am not so sure about this, because:

> Obviously, Latin was an extremely vital language of culture for
> much of Europe of that period.[...]
> But essentially it had become a static language which proved useful
> for certain sorts of scientific, religious, and practical matters.

Is this really so obvious? Can a language really be "vital" and
"static" at the same time?

Some random bits of food for thought: was Erasmus' Latin "static"?
I should think not. Neither was Madhva's Sanskrit (and authors
who wanted their Skt. to be static were angry at him for it). The
fact that there are varieties of Skt. (Jaina, Buddhist, etc.) shows
that it was not static.

Or how should we judge the language written by non-mother-tongue
speakers today? Tulu speakers who write Kannada? Various kinds of
Indians who write English? And cases where the 'natural' mother
tongue is not exactly the written language, as in the case of much
of German-speaking Switzerland?

The argument that somewhere else there are 'real' mother-tongue
speakers of English etc. does not really hold good, because
language lives in the mind of the user, not in the mind of somebody
else. Users (of Skt., Latin, etc.) decide whether the language
lives and is vital or not.

Questions of what constitutes a 'living language' are obviously
more subtle than the linguists to whom George Thompson referred
apparently thought. In his little book _Lateinisches Mittelalter:
Einleitung in Sprache und Literatur_ Karl Langosch wrote about
mediaeval Latin as the European "father tongue" ("Vatersprache",
next to "Muttersprache"), which I think is a beautiful and accurate
expression. Sanskrit is the Indian Vatersprache. And are fathers
less 'living' than mothers?

RZ




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Wed Jul 15 00:09:13 1998
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 19:09:13 -0500
Subject: Downloadable pictures
Message-ID: <161227040884.23782.7587430522344074520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a university site in Finland that has thousands of pictures, some
related to India. Unfortunately, I have misplaced the URL, but maybe someone
else has found it too??

Claude Setzer

-----Original Message-----
From: Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Tuesday, July 14, 1998 2:25 PM
Subject: Downloadable pictures


>Dear Netters!
>
>Would any of you know of a database where I can find pictures of
>India/Indian art etc that can be downloaded to my computer?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
>Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
>Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
>0674 Oslo
>
>Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
>Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
>Email: lmfosse at online.no
>Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
>
>Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Tue Jul 14 19:07:34 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 21:07:34 +0200
Subject: an old question
Message-ID: <161227040879.23782.12953400805134712028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos wrote:

>In his little book _Lateinisches Mittelalter:
>Einleitung in Sprache und Literatur_ Karl Langosch wrote about
>mediaeval Latin as the European "father tongue" ("Vatersprache",
>next to "Muttersprache"), which I think is a beautiful and accurate
>expression. Sanskrit is the Indian Vatersprache. And are fathers
>less 'living' than mothers?

/off_stage:Depends. sometimes both are dead.

Personally, I think such a narrow, culture dependent and genealogical categorisation is a bit dangerous, especially in the case of languages. If a vernacular Prakrit was the Muttersprache for a certain north-Indian child, and Sanskrit was the Vatersprache, you suppose the child learned his first words from his Prakrit speaking mother, and learned his second words from his also Sanskrit speaking father. Education as a right of the father. This father-language then is par excellence an unpure language, as this very father on his turn learned first Prakrit from his mother, and only thereafter Sanskrit from his father, who on his turn etcetera. So the language will get a tiny little bit of contamination at each generation. I'm afraid this won't work. Sanskrit would survive much better if it were a guru language instead of a father language.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden,
NL
info at ticonsole.nl

(apologize if any attachments do reach you unintentionally)




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jul 14 19:27:41 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 21:27:41 +0200
Subject: Downloadable pictures
Message-ID: <161227040872.23782.8016411393475246178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Netters!

Would any of you know of a database where I can find pictures of
India/Indian art etc that can be downloaded to my computer?

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Tue Jul 14 20:46:21 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 21:46:21 +0100
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040874.23782.17172147712620312722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think philosophical arguments about what constitutes a 'living'
vs a 'dead' language from the point of view of linguistics miss the
point. If you don't like 'living' vs. 'dead' you may replace it
with 'having native speakers' vs. 'not having native speakers'.

Despite some troublesome borderline cases (bilinguals, standard
language different from the colloquial dialect, etc.) this is
most often easy enough to decide.

Here's a simple test which you may or may not find relevant
to your purpose: a language that has native speakers has
an *independant* phonology.

This cannot be said of medieval Latin or Sanskrit.

People spoke Latin with French, German, English, Spanish,
Polish, Dutch, ... accents. There was no "Latin accent" in the 16th
century. Similarly for Sanskrit. People speak it with a Marathi,
or a Bengali or a Kannada or some other accent. No such thing as
a "Sanskrit accent" in the 20th century. (This should allow me to
rephrase my question about Sanskrit in a simplistic way: Until
when was there such a thing as a "Sanskrit accent"? When did
Sanskrit cease to be a language with an independant phonology?)

(Btw, I'm not implying this is the only way languages with native
speakers differ from languages w/o native speakers, but this
feature at least should be obvious to anyone)

No one said a language not-having-native-speakers never changes,
and is necessarily static. (Or if they did, they'd be wrong)

But if it changes, it changes in other ways than a language
having-native-speakers, or so some linguists seem to think,
which explains why those linguists seem to think the distinction
is worth making.

It may very well be that the distinction is irrelevant in many other
cases.

Btw, I do agree that the term 'dead' (vs 'living') is annoying.

Maybe the term 'dead language' should be reserved for 'really
dead' languages such as Gothic, Egyptian, etc. To distinguish
the situation of a language such as Sanskrit from that of say English,
one can of course call them both 'living' and perhaps distinguish
them as a 'living culturally' vs. 'living naturally'. The term
'mother tongue' vs. 'father tongue' I like too but I have
a Tamil friend who speaks English with his father, Tamil
with his mother (note both mother and father are
Tamil-speakers) and Hindi (at least when he was in India)
with his friends. So now what happens? :-)




From thompson at JLC.NET  Wed Jul 15 01:48:12 1998
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 21:48:12 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227040886.23782.17482453168657480864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In deference to the 2k rule I will try to respond briefly, and only to one
or two points at a time:
>
>A seemingly minor point, but one that, IMHO, matters is that
>in Proto-Dravidian, t, _t and .t are distinct phonemes, but n/_n is
>opposed to .n.

This is beyond my competence. Perhaps others can help here [please].
>
>To me convergence implies two-way influence. If two different languages,
>one with just one n and another with n/_n vs .n, interact with each
>other, convergence should lead to merging of all n's. It would be rather
>strange if _n becomes .n distinct from n. [In general, if two groups,
>one which distinguishes two sounds and another which does not but
>depends on context etc to differentiate words, interact, the typical
>outcome is for the sounds to merge.]
>
Again, linguistic typology is beyond my competence, but in this case I fail
to see why the merging of all n's would be the necessary outcome of
convergence. The opposite would seem just as likely. There's a new book out
by Ladefoged and somebody else on the world's phonological systems, which
my bookstore is getting for me. I'll report back after I've had a chance to
look at it. Perhaps it will tell us what is "typical" in this regard.

[snip]

>How about the following:
>    Stage 0: Speakers of Proto-IA/Pre-IA migrate into South Asia. At
>    this stage, PIIr t, d, dh, n were each one phoneme. These must have
>    had allophones already produced >behind< the alveolar ridge. But s
>    and .s must be already distinct.

Yes, the RUKI rule is older than PIA, affecting Iranian as much as Indic.

I also see little to disagree with in general about your Stages 1 and 2.
But it would be imteresting to know what time-frame you picture for these
stages.

Enough for now. Are others willing [I know that some are able] to
contribute insights?

Many thanks to V. Rao for keeping this thread alive, and lively.

George Thompson




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Tue Jul 14 20:07:18 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 22:07:18 +0200
Subject: double accusatives
Message-ID: <161227040877.23782.8146331375240624549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Simpson wrote

>more sound to take case endings seriously and to understand the sanskrit
>sentence as "he makes him see a book", where we feel no doubt about the
>direct object character of both "him" and "the book"? And the fact that
>"darzayati" could (since when?) be used with a dative or genitive shows
>only that its semantics gradually shifted into the direction of "to show"
>(i.e. "to give someone something to see") so that it could be used in
>analogy to verbs like "dA". But that does not entitle us in my opinon to
>call the accusative "tam" an "indirect object".

The original situation of `rAma.m pustaka.m darzayati' then is like `(he) makes rama - see the book. In other words, rama as the higher object, and the book as the lower object.

However, Boris Oguibenine wrote

>On the other hand a current distinction is between the high
>transitivity (a book is given or given to see) and the low transitivity
>("he" is only secondarily affected by the agent). The point is that
>"pustakam darzayati/dadAti" is a complete utterance, whereas"*tam
>darzayati/dadAti" is an ellipsed utterance which may be understood
>adequately, only if an additional information about the object of high
>transitive verb 

The original situation of `rAma.m pustaka.m darzayati' then is more like `(he) makes the book - (so that) rAma sees (it). Much more difficult to analyse in terms of (apologize) generative grammar, but more satisfactory also. The analysis with rAma as the higher object goes wrong, as then `see the book' as a whole also functions as a direct object. Two direct obects are difficult. So, it looks as if Boris' observation yields the better conclusion.

George Simpson also wrote:
>therefore I suggest in the case of darzayati a semantic shift from "he
>makes someone (acc.) see something (acc.)" to "he makes something (acc.)
>seen=visible to somebody (dat., later also gen.)." That seems to me a
>better strategy than to jump to the conclusion that an accusative ending
>can express the role "indirect object".

Of course. Unless you indicate this shift-to-come-in-later-times already by a term like indirect object. As we all observe that there is `some' difference between the two accusatives.

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
The Netherlands
info at ticonsole.nl




From khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Tue Jul 14 22:26:13 1998
From: khofmann at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Katja Hofmann)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 00:26:13 +0200
Subject: new search for...
Message-ID: <161227040881.23782.4343513618411507311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
at first I have to thank all them of You they was prepared to send me
hints (or other helpful material) on my "Gajendramoksha" and
"ALB"-calls.
Today I'm looking for information, if does there exist any
"AvatAra-List" which include even this "Gajendramoksha".
I'm in possession of some notes I made some years ago during a seminar
but I can't find bibliographical specifications.
Thank you, best wishes,
Katja Hofmann
khofmann at zedat.fu-berlin.de.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Wed Jul 15 11:55:22 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 07:55:22 -0400
Subject: an old question
Message-ID: <161227040893.23782.11913921378190687326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"T.I. Console" <info at TICONSOLE.NL> wrote:
>So the language will get a tiny little bit of contamination at each
>generation.

But it does.

We pay too much attention to phonology, because that was the main
istinction in medieval India. But some registers of Sanskrit show
Prakritic influence in morphology. In case of syntax and the steady
loss of indeclinables (to be replaced by case forms or gerunds) this
conclusion is inescapable.

Also, I don't see any difference between vatersprache and gurubhaashaa
in this matter.

"D.H. Killingley" <D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK> wrote:
> If a Tamil speaker uses voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
> oppositions in pronouncing stops in Tamil, could they not be said to have
> a 'Sanskrit accent?'

What about those who have voice/voiceless distinction, but not
aspiration (typical of priests in minor temples in Tamil Nadu) :-)

Regards
-Nath




From emstern at NNI.COM  Wed Jul 15 12:30:31 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 08:30:31 -0400
Subject: Downloadable pictures
In-Reply-To: <199807141927.VAA12787@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227040894.23782.2988565985110741291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear Netters!
>
>Would any of you know of a database where I can find pictures of
>India/Indian art etc that can be downloaded to my computer?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
>Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
>Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
>0674 Oslo
>
>Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
>Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
>Email: lmfosse at online.no
>Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
>
>Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no

The Center for Electronic Text and Image at the University of Pennsylvania
Library has an ongoing project to digitize images from the AIIS photo
archive. Some images are already available for online use. I could not
determine, however,  whether online use may legally include  downloading to
an individual computer, or not. The main page for the South Asia Art
Archive is http://www.library.upenn.edu/etext/sasia/aiis/index.html. Follow
links under the heading Subject Categories of AIIS Photograph Archive.

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Wed Jul 15 07:29:42 1998
From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 09:29:42 +0200
Subject: Downloadable pictures
Message-ID: <161227040888.23782.4911045948044806783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse schrieb:
>
> Dear Netters!
>
> Would any of you know of a database where I can find pictures of
> India/Indian art etc that can be downloaded to my computer?

Here are some URLs from my bookmarks (unsorted and unchecked):

http://www.asianart.com/index.html
http://www.investindia.com/coverpage.html
http://www.fh-koeln.de/insider/insider3/alchi.html
http://www.fh-koeln.de/insider/insider3/kultur.html (Alchi)
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:80/arth/meister/pakistan.html
http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/
http://www.goloka.com/
http://www.lakshmi.com/

Regards,


--
Martin Bemmann

Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften
>Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway<
Karlstrasse 4
Postfach 102769
D-69017 Heidelberg  -- Germany

phone: ++49-6221-543276  fax: ++49-6221-543355
mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html




From nmuch at EXECPC.COM  Wed Jul 15 17:56:07 1998
From: nmuch at EXECPC.COM (N. C. Much)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 10:56:07 -0700
Subject: Downloadable pictures
In-Reply-To: <199807141927.VAA12787@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227040896.23782.3778270872655665162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Fosse,

There are some interesting exhibitions on the Web at present. One is Cooking for the Gods,
the Art of Home Ritual in Bengal.

http://dept.arth.upenn.edu/nalin/nalin.html

Another is an exhibit from the Sackler Gallery, Puja, Expressions of
Hindu Devotion.


http://www.si.edu/asia/puja/start.htm


Within the next month I will begin putting up somw of my own photographs
from Orissa.  These include persons and places, some temples and temple
sculpture, ancient and contemporary, and handloom silks.  If any of that interests
you, that site will be linked to my home page at

http://www.uwm.edu/People/ncm2/index.html


Nancy C. M. Ross

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nancy C. M. Ross, Ph.D. University of Chicago 1983, Human Development
Graduate Student, SLIS University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
Research Consultant, Office of Research and Evaluation, Alverno College
Email: nmuch at execpc.com;  Email: ncm2 at csd.uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/People/ncm2/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 7/14/98, at 9:27 PM, Lars Martin Fosse  wrote:

>Dear Netters!
>
>Would any of you know of a database where I can find pictures of
>India/Indian art etc that can be downloaded to my computer?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
>Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
>Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
>0674 Oslo
>
>Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
>Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
>Email: lmfosse at online.no
>Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
>
>Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK  Wed Jul 15 10:30:39 1998
From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 11:30:39 +0100
Subject: An old question
In-Reply-To: <v01530504b1d162673149@[194.134.29.30]>
Message-ID: <161227040890.23782.3367492366349090523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob's contribution is an interesting pointer to how we might find
subtler criteria than 'living' vs. 'dead', but there are still
complications.

If a Tamil speaker uses voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
oppositions in pronouncing stops in Tamil, could they not be said to have
a 'Sanskrit accent?'

The pair 'father-tongue/mother tongue' (for which Jacob was not
responsible) carries unwelcome implications that high culture belongs to
males, popular culture to females.

Dr Dermot Killingley
Dept of Religious Studies
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
Phone 0191 222 6730    Fax 0191 222 5185




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Wed Jul 15 17:01:16 1998
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 13:01:16 -0400
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040898.23782.6101402058179552219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

D.H. Killingley wrote:

> If a Tamil speaker uses voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
> oppositions in pronouncing stops in Tamil, could they not be said to have
> a 'Sanskrit accent?'

But the voiced/voiceless distinction for stops does exist in Tamil... it is
only aspiration that is missing.  So,  even a "native" Tamil would voice
stops under certain well-defined conditions like if a stop appears after
a nasal ("k" would become "g" in this case) or if it occurs anywhere other
than a word-initial position etc etc.

For example,  a name like that of the present Chief Minister of TN (a
firebrand, native Tamil... known in the lingo as "maRattamizhan2"),
karuNaaniti,  even if written as such would be pronounced even by the
most native of Tamils with the last syllable voiced, i.e. like Sanskrit "d".

What would be lost would be the aspiration... in Sanskrit,  the same word
would be "karuNaanidhi"... pronouncing the last syllable with a clear
aspiration,  or overdoing it as it happens sometimes,  would be clearly a
"Sanskrit" accent.

Regards,
-Srini.




From keltchix at PACBELL.NET  Wed Jul 15 22:24:20 1998
From: keltchix at PACBELL.NET (DaFamily)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 15:24:20 -0700
Subject: Lingua Systems
Message-ID: <161227040903.23782.3235850915107203815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
> Does anybody know the address/web-address of a company called Lingua
> Systems. LS has designed a concordance program. (I have so far been

I'm not positive it's the same company, but you could try

http://linguasy.com

There's concordance sw advertised on site, as well as contact info.




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Wed Jul 15 16:48:49 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 18:48:49 +0200
Subject: vAjapeya
Message-ID: <161227040907.23782.5917229686063378830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members,
        Reading the hymn to Soma RV 9.98, I observe:
- authors being IA kings: vArSAgiro 'mbarISo bhAradvAja RjizvA RSI
- precise dedication (zloka 10, part 1):
i'ndrAya soma pA'tave vRtraghne' pa'ri Sicyase |
- rare vAja-words (zloka 12, hymn's end):
ta'm sakhAyah puroru'cam yUya'm vaya'm ca sUra'yaH |
azyA'ma vA'jagandhyam sane'ma vA'japastyam ||
        I ask me if this hymn could be considered as written especially for
the occasion of a vAjapeya? How the zloka 12 is translated by experts?
        Regards,
Dominique
PS: reading Macdonnell (VGS, p.128 or 132), I expected the accent of the
last optative must be sa'nema. Where I'm wrong?

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jul 15 21:39:18 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 23:39:18 +0200
Subject: Lingua Systems
Message-ID: <161227040900.23782.13484869363827385221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Netters!

Does anybody know the address/web-address of a company called Lingua
Systems. LS has designed a concordance program. (I have so far been unable
to find it on the Internet, but I may just have been unlucky).

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From urban.lindqvist at UPPSALA.MAIL.TELIA.COM  Wed Jul 15 22:19:06 1998
From: urban.lindqvist at UPPSALA.MAIL.TELIA.COM (Urban Lindqvist)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 00:19:06 +0200
Subject: SV: Lingua Systems
Message-ID: <161227040901.23782.308142880293642444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear Netters!
>
>Does anybody know the address/web-address of a company called Lingua
>Systems. LS has designed a concordance program. (I have so far been unable
>to find it on the Internet, but I may just have been unlucky).
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse


Could this be it?
http://linguasy.com/

Urban Lindqvist




From riccardo.garbini at IOL.IT  Wed Jul 15 23:35:27 1998
From: riccardo.garbini at IOL.IT (riccardo garbini)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 00:35:27 +0100
Subject: Help on an ancient indian stell with sanskrit inscription
Message-ID: <161227040905.23782.18374476488311194146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear Indologist
>
>
>
>There are a couple of stones with inscriptions in sanskrit in Portugal. Two
>of thwm were already decifered almost a century ago. At that period
>historians were lookink for a stone that was spoused to be brought from the
>temples of Elephanta. After knowing the contents of the inscriptions two of
>the stells were excluded but recently it was discovered another one that
>was upside down covering the grave of a Vice-King.
>I am not a sanscristist neither an epigraphist, I am an anthropologist with
>some knowledge of sanskrit and indian history and art. The Stella has three
>friezes  with an inscription above that that depictes a sacrifice?
>I just start to investigate what my knowledge alows and before to proceed I
>would like to herar from some of you.
>What is the kind of rock that it is used in the temples of Elefanta? have
>you ever heard about a stone that was taken away during the Portuguese
>invansions in XVI century in the zone of Salsete?
>
>I am sending some images. The inscriptions in Sanskrit are hard to decifer
>even on the original stone.
>
>Thank for the help

Dear Mariana Caixeiro,
my name is Riccardo Garbini and my research field is Indian epigraphy.
You can easily infer what kind of interest stimulated your letter.
I would really like to study these inscription.
Likely, the more easy way would be to check the pictures of these inscription.
You may send some good picture (or drawings) of these inscriptions to the
following address:
                        Dr. Riccardo Garbini
                        c/o Istituto Italiano per l'Africa e l'Oriente
                                (IsIAO) - Via Merulana 248
                                00185 - Roma -Italia

Hoping to hear news from your side,

                                Yours, Riccardo.

sincerely yours,riccardo




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Thu Jul 16 11:56:41 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 07:56:41 -0400
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040914.23782.5663928267735570412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Srini Pichumani <srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM>
> For example,  a name like [...] karuNaaniti,  even if written as such
> would be pronounced even by the most native of Tamils with the last
> syllable voiced, i.e. like Sanskrit "d".

We have been through this before. In Tamil, if we disregard those who
(try to) preserve the original pronunciation of Sanskrit (not that common),
English (more common) etc words, the t vs d distinction is not
phonemic, nor is k vs g vs h, c vs j, .t vs .d or p vs b. The
distribution is conditioned by context.

The word `madam', intoxication is from Sanskrit `mada', while `madam'
religion, code of belief is from `mata'. Sanskrit accent would be to
pronounce these as `madam' and `matam' respectively. There are those
who do this while repeating slokams etc, but in normal conversation, is
is very rare.

That those familiar with other languages can tell allophones apart is
irrelavant. What matters is how native speakers, espeically monolingulas,
perceive them.

Regards
-Nath




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jul 16 14:35:49 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 08:35:49 -0600
Subject: TolkAppiyam
Message-ID: <161227040918.23782.2608370005613448426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Chevillard,

Have a good trip to India. Please meet with Prof. S. N. Kandasamy
at Thanjavur and it will be useful. He has written extensively on
SVP's datings.

After 1974, many tamil brahmi inscriptions including
that of AtiyamAn have been found. I. Mahadevan has written an
overview called Early Tamil paleography. That book is
in print from IAS, Madras.

BTW, George Hart has completed the entire puRanAnURu translation.
It will come out from Columbia university press.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jul 16 08:15:36 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 13:45:36 +0530
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040909.23782.11801722727053953815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

> Personally, I think such a narrow, culture dependent and
> genealogical categorisation is a bit dangerous, especially in the
> case of languages. If a vernacular Prakrit was the Muttersprache
> for a certain north-Indian child, and Sanskrit was the
> Vatersprache, you suppose the child learned his first words from
> his Prakrit speaking mother, and learned his second words from his
> also Sanskrit speaking father. Education as a right of the father.
> [...]

No, I never supposed any such thing. And any such projection of
meanings onto what I wrote involves unwarranted assumptions (e.g.,
that the only education worth mentioning can take place only
through Sanskrit, or that mothers cannot educate).

I was hoping that the list members would realise, without further
explanation, that expressions like "mother tongue" (and by
extension, "father tongue") are metaphorical. (For instance: what
about children whose mothers have died in childbirth? How can they
have a "mother tongue", if there is no mother to teach them the
tongue? I hope that the absurdity of taking these expressions
literally will now be clear.)

The terms Muttersprache and Vatersprache, it is true, do reflect
different spheres in which the languages are used: the
Muttersprache in the more personal and geographically more
proximate sphere ([extended] family, circle of friends, village
community, etc.), the Vatersprache in the impersonal and
geographically more remote sphere, learnt in a less personal
setting (school, academy). Of course the later use of the acquired
language is a different matter (e.g., were contacts through Latin
between Erasmus and Thomas More impersonal?). This is about as far
as the metaphor should be stretched. If I were unfair, I could take
Van der Geer's illustration and say that Prakrit too had become a
secondary Vatersprache among the Jainas in South India and in North
India in the Apabhramsa period (so instead of Muttersprache,
Prakrit would be an Onkelsprache or something, to be taught by an
uncle? maternal or paternal uncle? let's not be ridiculous).

As for "narrow" and "culture dependent": let us please note that a
term like "maat.rbhaa.saa" is current in India too. (Perhaps this
makes the use of the term 'politically correct' again.) -- And now
that I have already had the audacity to inflict this hateful narrow
cultural damage on our readers, maybe we can use the term
nevertheless. I will, in any case.

RZ




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jul 16 08:16:04 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 13:46:04 +0530
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040910.23782.4105909987395955616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

> Here's a simple test which you may or may not find relevant
> to your purpose: a language that has native speakers has
> an *independant* phonology.

> Similarly for Sanskrit. People speak it with a Marathi,
> or a Bengali or a Kannada or some other accent. No such thing as
> a "Sanskrit accent" in the 20th century. (This should allow me to
> rephrase my question about Sanskrit in a simplistic way: Until
> when was there such a thing as a "Sanskrit accent"? When did
> Sanskrit cease to be a language with an independant phonology?)

This is actually begging the question. The phonemics of literary
Dravidian languages like Telugu gand Kannada was thoroughly
Sanskritised, and thus they do not have a completely "independent
phonology". One could also ask where Marathi etc. phonology comes
from.

Since phonology is constantly undergoing change in all languages, I
wonder whether we should make it a key criterion.

RZ




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Thu Jul 16 13:55:32 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 13:55:32 +0000
Subject: TolkAppiyam
In-Reply-To: <01IZD4LX1L5U00FO6S@cl.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040912.23782.5705265132143483493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 20:08 13/07/98 -0600,
vous ("N. Ganesan" <GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU>) avez ?crit :
> A tolkAppiyam poruL atikAram sUttiram says:
>
>" nATaka vazakkin2um ulakiyal vazakkin2um
> pATal cAn2Ra pulan2eRi vazakkam
> *kaliyE paripATTu Ayiru pAvin2um*
> uriyatu Akum en2man2Ar pulavar. "
>
>This tol. rule essentially says love poems must be written
>in either kali or paripATTu meter and this custom is followed by
>poets before him.
>
>This contradicts with S. Vaiyapuri Pillai's theory that
>tol. was written after Sangam poetry were composed.
>

I feel your interpretation and your conclusions
are open to discussion but it would probably be a very
long one.

To add other elements to the total sum
of evidences and learned opinions, I will today
quote prof. George L. Hart III's viewpoint,
as it appears on page 10 in his 1975 book (PAT):
"The poems of Ancient Tamil, their milieu
 and their Sanskrit counterpart"
 University of California Press, ISBN 0-520-02672-1

"The _Tolkaappiyam_, a treatise on grammar and poetic convention,
 is generally said to have been written even before the anthologies.
 This claim, if true, would make that work of great importance
 in this investigation. However, Mahadevan has shown
 that the writing system described by the _Tolkaappiyam_,
 and specifically the part that calls for putting a dot (_puLLi_)
 over a letter to indicate that it is not followed by the vowel _a_
 (as a _virAma_ in Sanskrit), was not used until several centuries
 after the period of the anthologies. In other words, parts
 of the _Tolkaappiyam_ are quite late, though some parts
 may be as early as has been generally claimed. Unfortunately,
 since it is quite impossible to separate the early parts
 of the _Tolkaappiyam_ from the later parts, that work
 cannot be relied upon for historical data on the period
 of the anthologies" (PAT, p.10)


I am afraid I won't be able to take part in the discussion
on the date of Tolkaappiyam for some time, because I am leaving
for India during the weekend. But I hope it will still
be going when I come back, in September. Special thanks
to N.Ganesan and S.Palaniappan for their contributions
that I enjoyed very much, even when (or maybe, _especially when_)
I disagree with part of their views. I find it rewarding
to try to get near the core questions and to see
how authorities always boil down to the evidences they refer to.

Best wishes to all

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD




From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK  Thu Jul 16 13:04:40 1998
From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 14:04:40 +0100
Subject: An old question
In-Reply-To: <35ACE05C.1AF4A809@mentorg.com>
Message-ID: <161227040915.23782.9130848364453285497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, I should have expressed myself clearer. I was talking about
_phonological distinction_ between voiced and voiceless, not conditioned
variation which I know exists in Tamil. And I was thinking of the
pronunciation of tatsamas.

Dr Dermot Killingley
Dept of Religious Studies
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
Phone 0191 222 6730    Fax 0191 222 5185

On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Srini Pichumani wrote:

> D.H. Killingley wrote:
>
> > If a Tamil speaker uses voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
> > oppositions in pronouncing stops in Tamil, could they not be said to have
> > a 'Sanskrit accent?'
>
> But the voiced/voiceless distinction for stops does exist in Tamil... it is
> only aspiration that is missing.  So,  even a "native" Tamil would voice
> stops under certain well-defined conditions like if a stop appears after
> a nasal ("k" would become "g" in this case) or if it occurs anywhere other
> than a word-initial position etc etc.
>
> For example,  a name like that of the present Chief Minister of TN (a
> firebrand, native Tamil... known in the lingo as "maRattamizhan2"),
> karuNaaniti,  even if written as such would be pronounced even by the
> most native of Tamils with the last syllable voiced, i.e. like Sanskrit "d".
>
> What would be lost would be the aspiration... in Sanskrit,  the same word
> would be "karuNaanidhi"... pronouncing the last syllable with a clear
> aspiration,  or overdoing it as it happens sometimes,  would be clearly a
> "Sanskrit" accent.
>
> Regards,
> -Srini.
>




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Thu Jul 16 14:31:44 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 16:31:44 +0200
Subject: An old question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.980716134510.23220A-100000@bg1.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227040931.23782.4551315125296925957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos wrote:
>maybe we can use the term
>nevertheless. I will, in any case.
        I agree fully. 'langue maternelle' is clear and simple.
        We know well there is first a passive learning by the baby, such
that, when he begins to speak, he seems to have a secrete knowledge. This
gives the way to expressions such 'sucking the language with the milk from
the mother's breast'. Despite the gender's question, mother-tongue say
nothing else and father-tongue is nothing but the fault of style that we
call in French 'filer une metaphore'.
        Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Thu Jul 16 23:22:28 1998
From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 17:22:28 -0600
Subject: double accusatives
In-Reply-To: <v0153050db1d435a1e6b5@[194.134.29.30]>
Message-ID: <161227040923.23782.3365543820860606006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have not been watching the double accusative discusion, sorry if I have
missed
something, but I wanted to make a comment on the following:

Jan Baltuch wrote:
>Sorry if this is obvious but I don't understand this. Why two direct objects?
>
>If you took as the basic analysis 'he makes/causes [Rama to see the book]'
>where the whole clause 'Rama sees the book' would be the direct object and
>Rama
>the subject of that clause, where would there be two direct objects?
>
>(Or, to stay closer to the Sanskrit, something like 'he CAUSATIVE [Rama
>sees the book]'
>becoming 'he makes-see [Rama -- the book]')


The causative *darzayati* with the well-established meaning "shows,"
behaves like a simple verb
and takes two accusatives OR an accusative and a genitive of reference
(in the case above *rAmasya*).


Edeltraud Harzer Clear
Asian Studies
University of Texas at Austin
USA




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Thu Jul 16 17:34:19 1998
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 17:34:19 +0000
Subject: TolkAppiyam
In-Reply-To: <01IZGN9ZGBYA00GK0C@cl.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040919.23782.15482673065184405421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A 08:35 16/07/98 -0600, vous avez ?crit :

>BTW, George Hart has completed the entire puRanAnURu translation.
>It will come out from Columbia university press.
>
>Regards,
>N. Ganesan
>

That's a very good news!!!

Then to my knowledge, the only tokai-s
(among the eTTut tokai)
not having a full translation
will be akam (akanAn2URu) and kalittokai.
 (I am assuming that everybody can read the beautiful french
  translation of ParipATal by prof. Fran?ois Gros ...)

There is an unpublished translation of akam
in the library of the French Institute of Pondicherry
by V.M.Subramanya Ayyar, but he died before
he was able to have it revised for publication.

Since S.Palaniappan gave us several times
translations of parts of akam, he should be
encouraged to prepare a full translation of akam.
I am sure it would easily be published by any
of the institutions that are in the field.
But of course, only he can say what his projects are.

Best wishes

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD




From search at HINDUSTAN.NET  Fri Jul 17 02:17:44 1998
From: search at HINDUSTAN.NET (Hindustan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:17:44 -0700
Subject: Comprehensive Search Engine on India
Message-ID: <161227040925.23782.7450657016178920503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends

We are pleased to announce a new powerful and dynamic Search
engine dedicated to India and Indian people worldwide.
If you have any kind of personal or public webpages or site related to India
you are most welcome to submit them.

To do so, please visit the site http://hindustan.net and click on ADD URL
or go direct to  http://hindustan.net/add.cgi

You can choose one of the over 200 categories.

The search index will also lead to other specialized search engines
and directories.

We wait for your submissions. The submission must be done from the
website directly. This way you may modify the description or url anyitme.

Hope you will make use of it.
best regards
P Kumar
Hindustan Network
search at hindustan.net




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jul 17 03:54:15 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 21:54:15 -0600
Subject: TokAppiyam
Message-ID: <161227040927.23782.6317332157015759303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

("N. Ganesan" <GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU>) avez ?crit :
> A tolkAppiyam poruL atikAram sUttiram says:
>
>" nATaka vazakkin2um ulakiyal vazakkin2um

> pATal cAn2Ra pulan2eRi vazakkam
> *kaliyE paripATTu Ayiru pAvin2um*
> uriyatu Akum en2man2Ar pulavar. "
>
>This tol. rule essentially says love poems must be written
>in either kali or paripATTu meter and this custom is followed by
>poets before him.
>
>This contradicts with S. Vaiyapuri Pillai's theory that
>tol. was written after Sangam poetry were composed.
>

J-L. Chevillard wrote:
<<<
To add other elements to the total sum
of evidences and learned opinions, I will today
quote prof. George L. Hart III's viewpoint,
as it appears on page 10 in his 1975 book (PAT):
"The poems of Ancient Tamil, their milieu
 and their Sanskrit counterpart"
 University of California Press, ISBN 0-520-02672-1

"The _Tolkaappiyam_, a treatise on grammar and poetic convention,
 is generally said to have been written even before the anthologies.
 This claim, if true, would make that work of great importance
 in this investigation. However, Mahadevan has shown
 that the writing system described by the _Tolkaappiyam_,
 and specifically the part that calls for putting a dot (_puLLi_)
 over a letter to indicate that it is not followed by the vowel _a_
 (as a _virAma_ in Sanskrit), was not used until several centuries
 after the period of the anthologies. In other words, parts
 of the _Tolkaappiyam_ are quite late, though some parts
 may be as early as has been generally claimed. Unfortunately,
 since it is quite impossible to separate the early parts
 of the _Tolkaappiyam_ from the later parts, that work
 cannot be relied upon for historical data on the period
 of the anthologies" (PAT, p.10)
>>>>

>From I. Mahadevan, Orthographic sytems in early Tamil writing,
JIAS, 8, 1, 1990, p. 42
 "The silver portrait coins of the Satavahanas issued in
  second century A.D. with bi-lingual legends provide us
  with fairly firm dating for the use of puLLi. The lead
  coins of the Andipatti hoard (Mohandas 1968) and the cave 
  inscriptions (Anaimalai, Aivarmalai, etc.,) using puLLi
  broadly belong to this period."

>From I. Mahadevan, Recent trends in early Tamil epigraphy,
JIAS, 13, 1, 1995, p. 24 (On Vasisththiputra Satakarni (160 AD))
  "These features are all characteristic of the Tamil-Brahmi
   script, especially the puLLi known from the days of the
   TolkAppiyam, and also occuring in a number of Tamil-Brahmi
   cave inscriptions from about the second century A,D."

Is it possible that earlier inscriptions the puLLi is left
out just as in the practice of writing on palm leaves?
In any case, puLLi is found from 2nd century A.D.

I still subscribe to K. Zvelebil's opinion from 1970s to date
that Ur-tolkAppiyam was written around "150 B.C. (and
posssibly earlier?)". But some portions of the tol. 
could have been inserted even as late as 5th century A.D.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




 




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jul 17 03:55:23 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 21:55:23 -0600
Subject: TolkAppiyam
Message-ID: <161227040929.23782.11903510048048465529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>BTW, George Hart has completed the entire puRanAnURu translation.
>It will come out from Columbia university press.


J-L. Chevillard wrote:
<<<
Then to my knowledge, the only tokai-s
(among the eTTut tokai)
not having a full translation
will be akam (akanAn2URu) and kalittokai.
 (I am assuming that everybody can read the beautiful french
  translation of ParipATal by prof. Fran?ois Gros ...)

There is an unpublished translation of akam
in the library of the French Institute of Pondicherry
by V.M.Subramanya Ayyar, but he died before
he was able to have it revised for publication.
>>>

There is another puRam translation which is ready for print
from IAS, Madras. ParipaaTal translation by Seshadri is 
already published. Kalittokai and AkanaanuuRu are being
translated. May be, French Institute can give 
VMS' translation for comparison purposes.

Puranaanuuru & other sangam works are as important as
Vedic material to understand ancient India, once George Hart
told me. We must hold dear any scraps of kshatryavidya,
Lars Fosse wrote here not too long ago. Well, sangam poetry
is one such.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Thu Jul 16 23:36:16 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 00:36:16 +0100
Subject: double accusatives
Message-ID: <161227040921.23782.4807250944227291339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

[analysis 1]
>The original situation of `rAma.m pustaka.m darzayati' then is like
>`(he) makes rama - see the book. In other words, rama as the higher
>object, and the book as the lower object.

or

[analysis 2]
>The original situation of `rAma.m pustaka.m darzayati' then is more like
>`(he) makes the book - (so that) rAma sees (it). Much more difficult to
>analyse in terms of (apologize) generative grammar, but more satisfactory
>also. The analysis with rAma as the higher object goes wrong, as then
>`see the book' as a whole also functions as a direct object. Two direct
>obects are difficult.

Sorry if this is obvious but I don't understand this. Why two direct objects?

If you took as the basic analysis 'he makes/causes [Rama to see the book]'
where the whole clause 'Rama sees the book' would be the direct object and Rama
the subject of that clause, where would there be two direct objects?

(Or, to stay closer to the Sanskrit, something like 'he CAUSATIVE [Rama
sees the book]'
becoming 'he makes-see [Rama -- the book]')




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jul 17 18:21:28 1998
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 11:21:28 -0700
Subject: mahat?
Message-ID: <161227040940.23782.8447305120559869143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is a question that has been bothering
me for some time.  In the Vedantic/sAnkhyA
scheme of evolutes, what exactly is "mahat"?

What few traditional manuals of philosophy I
have consulted simply list mahat as that into
which prakRti evolves.  Is there a more concrete
answer?

Mani




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jul 17 07:32:07 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 13:02:07 +0530
Subject: An old question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.980716140048.27882B-100000@aidan.ncl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227040933.23782.14027228003818672668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Srini Pichumani <srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM> wrote:

> D.H. Killingley wrote:
>
> > If a Tamil speaker uses voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
> > oppositions in pronouncing stops in Tamil, could they not be said
> > a 'Sanskrit accent?'
>
> But the voiced/voiceless distinction for stops does exist in
> Tamil... it is only aspiration that is missing.

Are you not confusing phonetic and phonemic distinctions?

When Tamilians or Malayalis speak Kannada, Kannadigas usually hear
that the others' mother tongue is different precisely because the
voiced/voiceless distinction is not made, i.e.: the Kannadiga hears
"ma.da" and "uu.da" in their pronunciation for standard Kannada
"ma.tha" and "uu.ta". So there _are_ phonetic features in the
speech of the other that are recognised by the Kannadiga as
"voiced" vs. "unvoiced", but the other evidently does not attribute
the same meaning to them as the Kannadiga does.

RZ




From mvishnu at FORE.COM  Fri Jul 17 19:08:05 1998
From: mvishnu at FORE.COM (Meenaradchagan Vishnu)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 15:08:05 -0400
Subject: mahat?
In-Reply-To: <199807171821.LAA18818@shasta.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <161227040942.23782.17467085652666149155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'Mani Varadarajan' wrote:
>
>
> Here is a question that has been bothering
> me for some time.  In the Vedantic/sAnkhyA
> scheme of evolutes, what exactly is "mahat"?
>
> What few traditional manuals of philosophy I
> have consulted simply list mahat as that into
> which prakRti evolves.  Is there a more concrete
> answer?

Mahat (lit. 'great') means discriminative knowledge in Samkhya
philosophy.  Originallay (i.e., before interpolations) Samkhya was a
rational philosophy which advocated solving human problems not by
religious/mystical/ritualistic means but by rational means; i.e., by
using discriminative knowledge.

This is clear from the first two verses of Samkhya Karika of
Ishvarakrishna, the oldest surviving work on Samkhya philosophy:

Verse 1:  "The enquiry is into the means of precluding the three sorts
of pain; for pain is embarrassment: nor is the inquiry superfluous
because obvious means of alleviation exist, for absolute and final
relief is not thereby accomplished."

Verse 2:  "The revealed mode (vedic method) is like the temporal one,
ineffectual, for it is impure (because it spills blood); and defective
in some respects, as well as excessive in others.  A method different
from both (the temporal as well as the vedic) is preferable, consisting
in discriminative knowledge of perceptible principles (vyakta), and of
the imperceptible one (avyakta), and of the thinking soul (purusha).

(vyakta -- lit. clear, avyakta -- lit. unclear)

So the objective of the Samkhya philosphy is to preclude three sorts of
pain.  The three kinds of pain are: adyathmika (personal),
(adhibautika) social, and adhidaivika (cosmic).

Even though temporal methods such as taking a pill for headache,
drinking toxicants for mental worries exists, these temporal methods do
not give lasting solutions to the pain.

Neither the Vedic (ritual) method gives lasting solution for it is
impure and ineffectual.

So we need a method that is different from both the temporal methods as
well as the Vedic ritual method to preclude pain.  The Samkhya proposes
a method based on the discriminative knowledge (mahat, buddhi).

> Mani

Meenan Vishnu




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Jul 17 15:12:35 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 16:12:35 +0100
Subject: [Admin] WWW and ftp service shutdown for weekend
Message-ID: <161227040935.23782.8501453178122968164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The INDOLOGY WWW and ftp services will shut down from about 45 minutes
from now until Monday morning.  This is to permit maintenance of the
mainframe computers on which the INDOLOGY web and ftp services are run.

The listserv discussion, based at Liverpool, should not be affected.

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.

The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul 17 18:07:37 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 19:07:37 +0100
Subject: double accusatives
Message-ID: <161227040936.23782.458241142029385557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Edeltraud Harzer Clear wrote:

>I have not been watching the double accusative discusion, sorry if I have
>missed
>something, but I wanted to make a comment on the following:
>
>Jan Baltuch wrote:
>>Sorry if this is obvious but I don't understand this. Why two direct objects?
>>
>>If you took as the basic analysis 'he makes/causes [Rama to see the book]'
>>where the whole clause 'Rama sees the book' would be the direct object and
>>Rama
>>the subject of that clause, where would there be two direct objects?
>>
>>(Or, to stay closer to the Sanskrit, something like 'he CAUSATIVE [Rama
>>sees the book]'
>>becoming 'he makes-see [Rama -- the book]')
>
>
>The causative *darzayati* with the well-established meaning "shows,"
>behaves like a simple verb
>and takes two accusatives OR an accusative and a genitive of reference
>(in the case above *rAmasya*).

Or a dative.

Yes, if you take a look at earlier postings in this thread, you will see
that all participants are aware of this.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul 17 21:41:22 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 22:41:22 +0100
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040944.23782.18130148148261650236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

D.H. Killingley wrote:

>If a Tamil speaker uses voiced/voiceless and aspirated/unaspirated
>oppositions in pronouncing stops in Tamil, could they not be said to have
>a 'Sanskrit accent?'

It depends on how you use the word "accent".

I'd prefer to say they used a "Sanskritized" type of pronunciation
*in Tamil*. Their accent (the way I was using the word, that is their
phonology, phonetics, and more: intonation, rhythm, the way all of
the above interacts with syntax, meaning, style, situation, etc., in
other words the sum total of their speech habits) is still a Tamil
accent, but a (particular) Tamil accent that has included some
Sanskritized pronunciation features.

If you travelled in time, brought back someone (an adult) who spoke
Sanskrit as a native language, taught them Tamil, now that would be
someone who spoke Tamil with a Sanskrit accent. And I think it is
not unreasonable to conjecture that there'd be much more to their
Sanskrit accent (that would distinguish it from an un-Sanskritized
Tamil accent) than simply using a few additional phonological distinc-
tions.

I wonder if you think that the English scholar of Latin, who consciously
and rigorously applies the rules of the so called "scientific" pronun-
ciation to his Latin, can be said to pronounce Latin with a "Latin accent"
in the same sense that Caesar or Cicero pronounced their Latin with
a "Latin accent".




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Fri Jul 17 21:41:28 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 22:41:28 +0100
Subject: An old question
Message-ID: <161227040945.23782.11919498758133708143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos wrote:

>> Here's a simple test which you may or may not find relevant
>> to your purpose: a language that has native speakers has
>> an *independant* phonology.
>
>> Similarly for Sanskrit. People speak it with a Marathi,
>> or a Bengali or a Kannada or some other accent. No such thing as
>> a "Sanskrit accent" in the 20th century. (This should allow me to
>> rephrase my question about Sanskrit in a simplistic way: Until
>> when was there such a thing as a "Sanskrit accent"? When did
>> Sanskrit cease to be a language with an independant phonology?)
>
>This is actually begging the question. The phonemics of literary
>Dravidian languages like Telugu gand Kannada was thoroughly
>Sanskritised, and thus they do not have a completely "independent
>phonology". One could also ask where Marathi etc. phonology comes
>from.

That's not the "in/dependence" I had meant. I meant something quite
circular: I understand the independence of a phonology to be that
feature that only the phonology of a language that has native speakers
possesses. Logically I was just saying: a good way to tell if a language
has native speakers is to see if it has native speakers. That's because
I was not aiming at a logically tight definition but was trying to elicit
recognition of a something that was I thought basically clear to everyone.

Ok, "test" is not so good. I should've said: "A simple way to get a feel
for the difference between a language that has native speakers and one
that doesn't is..."

For example I might say: a good way to get a feel for what "green" is to
look at grass. To which some will probably answer: "But how do you know
that the grass is green?".

So by that "definition" of independence the phonology of literary Kannada
as spoken by a native speaker (assuming there is such a thing) who would
have acquired those Sanskritized features the same way they've acquired
any other feature of their language would be as independent of Sanskrit
as it is of Basque.

On the other hand the phonology of a language spoken as a non-native
language by someone would be dependent on the phonology of their native
language. That in fact could be (almost) the definition of speaking a
language as a non-native speaker, or we would not be talking about a
non-native speaker, but a bilingual, i.e. someone who'd have mastered
that language, for all intents and purposes, like a native speaker.
Almost, because there's more to mastering a language than just mastering
its speech habits, but in fact in practice this is so difficult to acquire
thru non-native acquisition that it can almost be taken as a test. Again,
I agree, completely circular. In fact all "definitions" of "native speaker"
I can come up with are either circular or too restrictive or ad hoc or
impossible to verify effectively. In practice though, this is no problem at
all. Everyone seems to be able to tell who is what for English, French or
Hindi. It's only when we start talking about Latin or Sanskrit that some
people seem to start having problems.




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jul 17 18:23:10 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 23:23:10 +0500
Subject: A hen-pecked husband of antiquity - viSNupurANa
Message-ID: <161227040938.23782.15911977906370471110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Given below is an account of a classical hen-pecked husband from
viSNupurANa (4.12.12-32)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
tasyAyamadyApi jayadhvajasya zlOkO gIyatE.(12)

bhAryAvazyAs tu yE kEcid bhaviSyantyadhavA mRtaH
tESaM tu jyAmaghaH zrESTaz zaivyApatir abhUn nRpaH. (13)
aputrA tasya sA patnI zaivyA nAma tathApyasau
apatyakAmO~pi bhayAn nAnyAM bhAryAm avindata. (14)

sa tvEkadA prabhUta-ratha-turaga-gaja-sammardAtidAruNE mahAhavE
yudhyamAnaH sakalam EvAricakram ajayat.(15) taccAricakram apAsta-
putra-kalatra-bandhu-bala-kOzaM svamadhiSTAnaM parityajya dizaH
prati vidrutam.(16) tasmiMca vidrutE~titrAsalOlAyatalOcanayugalaM
trAhi trAhi mAM tAtAmba-bhrAtar-ityAkula-vilApa-vidhuraM sa rAja-
kanyAmadrAkSIt.(17) taddarzanAcca tasyAm anurAgagatAntarAtmA sa
nRpO~cintayat.(18) sAdhvidaM mamApatyarahitasya vandhyAbhartuH
sAmprataM vidhinA~patyakAraNaM kanyAratnam upapAditaM.(19) tadEtat
samudvahAmIti.(20) athavainAM syandanamArOpya svamadhiSTAnaM
nayAmi.(21) tayaiva dEvyA saivyayAhamanujJAtas samudvahAmIti.(22)

athainAM rathamArOpya svanagaram agacchat.(23) vijayinaM ca rAjAnam
azESapaura-bhRtya-parijana-amAtya-samEta zaivyA draStum adhiSTAnadvAram
AgatA.(24) sA ca avalOkya rAjJaH savyapArzvavartinIM kanyAm
ISad-udbhUtAmarSa-sphurad-adharapallavA rAjAnam avOcat.(25)
aticapalacittAtra syandanE kEyamArOpitEti.(26) asAvapyanAlOcitOttara-
vacanO~tibhyAttamAha snuSa mayEyamiti.(27) athainaM zaivyOvAca.(28)

nAhaM prasUtA putrENa nAnyA patnyabhavattava
snuSasambandhatA hyESA katamEna sutEna tE.(29)

ityAtmErSyA-kOpa-kaluSita-vacana-muSita-vivEkO bhayAd durukta-
parihArArtham idam avanIpatirAha.(30) yastE janiSyata Atmajas tasyEyam
anAgatasyaiva bhAryA nirUpitEtyAkarNyOdbhUtamRduhAsA tathEtyAha.(31)
pravivEza ca rAjJA sahAdhiSTAnam.(32)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

regards,

sarma.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jul 18 04:52:39 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 00:52:39 -0400
Subject: Turtles in Vedic Sacrifice and the Dravidian concept of
Message-ID: <161227040949.23782.1138041016659838134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-07-13 05:45:44 EDT, g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO writes:

<< "tittiyam" looks to me rather like derived from a Prakrit form "titthiya"
 from skt. "tIrthika", derived from "tIrtha"; see Apte, Skt.-Engl. Dict.,
 s.v. tIrtham, 20: "(in liturgical language) The path to the altar between
 the cAtvAla and the utkara." In Pali, you find "tittika" in the expression
 "samatittika" ("brimful", of a river); the word is also written "-titthika"
 which is clearly derived from "tIrtha". ... In the PrAtimokSasUtra of the
SarvAstivAdins I meet (in justone ms.) the form "samatittik(am)" which I
translate (following Edgerton): "(the alms bowl filled) with food to the
brim".>>

Many thanks to Georg v.Simson for this suggestion. I explored this suggestion
further using Pali-English Dictionary and Buddhist Suttas. The Dictionary says
that the derivation and meaning are doubtful and refers to Buddhist Suttas
(p.178-9) which has a long discussion about tittika and says "it is almost
certain that the original word had nothing to do with tIrtha". Moreover, in
the CT poem, tittikam is described as "fire-rising". So obviously it referred
to a fire-place and not a path or crossing or a container and the probability
of tittika being the source seemed low.

However, the presence of turtle seems to offer a clue. In "Agni", Staal says,
"In the agnicayana, a live tortoise (kUrma) is buried under the altar. Dumont
(1957, 16-18) has shown that the tortoise was chosen as a symbol of the three
worlds (earth, sky, and atmosphere) because of its domelike shape. The
tortoise was, moreover, regarded as the juice or life sap (medha in taittirIya
saMhitA 5.2.85, erroneously translated by Keith as if it said medhA,
"intelligence") of the earth: when PrajApati created  the earth and threw it
into the waters, the juice that flowed from it became a tortoise". The source
of Ta. tittiyam is most probably Sanskrit citi. Tamil Lexicon gives titti as
an alternate form of tittiyam. Moreover there is Ta. cittiyam which the
Lexicon says may perhaps refer to caitya. Given the attested tendency of c- >
t- sporadically in Dravidian, and the possible equivalence of a -tt- in Ta. to
a -t- in Skt., I think Ta. tittiyam is Sanskrit citi. This means azal ezu
tittiyam (fire rising tittiyam) is nothing but agni citi. What we seem to have
here is a reference to agnicayana. The commentators without a clear
understanding of the Vedic rituals explain it as sacrificial pit while in fact
it is a mound/pyre.  The Tamil poem also locates the hero near hot rocky
hills.

It is interesting that in a quintessential Tamil love poem we find a poet from
a hunter background using elements of a very specific Vedic ritual!

Comments are welcome. I would also like to know if there are any other Vedic
rituals involving tortoise. Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jul 18 02:31:05 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 07:31:05 +0500
Subject: A hen-pecked husband of antiquity - correction
Message-ID: <161227040947.23782.17884950619827328473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry for an errorin the first line. It should be

        tasyAyamadyApi jyAmaghasya zlOkO gIyatE.(12)

regards,

sarma.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jul 18 13:54:58 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 09:54:58 -0400
Subject: Turtles in Vedic Sacrifice and the Dravidian concept of
Message-ID: <161227040951.23782.8713269724748663016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-07-18 00:52:39 EDT, Palaniappa writes:

<< Many thanks to Georg v.Simson for this suggestion. I explored this
suggestion further using Pali-English Dictionary and Buddhist Suttas. The
Dictionary says that the derivation and meaning are doubtful and refers to
Buddhist Suttas (p.178-9) which has a long discussion about tittika and says
"it is almost certain that the original word had nothing to do with tIrtha".
Moreover, in the CT poem, tittikam is described as "fire-rising". So obviously
it referred to a fire-place and not a path or crossing or a container and the
probability of tittika being the source seemed low.  >>

I should clarify something here. If tittika originally is not from tIrtha but
from a word meaning a vessel, then one could connect it to the sacrificial
altar in the following manner. If the raised altar has a crater-like hollow
into which the fuel and oblations are placed, then that can be thought of as a
vessel or bowl.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jul 19 05:47:49 1998
From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 11:17:49 +0530
Subject: bookstores?
Message-ID: <161227040952.23782.11983010488090616620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I hope you actually referred to http://www.amazon.com  because
the http://www.amazone.com is not a bookshop.

Here I may say that our website http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch
offers "Sanskrit" as a subject.  Selecting this subject yields
a list of those items which are published in English language
(may / may not include the original verse) and are critical
editions or translations of Vedic or Sanskrit works or on Sanskrit
language.

Our web development team is looking into the feasibility of
introducing an online database of works in Sanskrit also.
At present we are sending lists of Sanskrit books by email
and in paper format. Interested readers are requested to
indicate their preference.

Surya P. Mittal
surya at pobox.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053
A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067
Najafgarh Road               Orders ->E-mailto:ordproc at dkagencies.com
New Delhi - 110 059.         E-mailto:custserv at dkagencies.com

           Our Website :     http://www.dkagencies.com
         Online Search :     http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



T.I. Console wrote:
>
> Jacob Baltuch asked for a linguist bookstore.
>
> Well, I'm living in the Netherlands, but I've never found a good one.
> The better bookstores, like Ginsberg in Leiden (Breestraat) and Broese
> Keemink in Utrecht (Stadhuisbrug) have lots of Europa-oriented books,
> but hardly any on an exotic plan. I think it is logical: Dutch people
> want to rent, hire, lease, but never buy!
>
> Why don't you try http://www.amazone.com, the greatest bookstore on
> the web? Look for References, than Linguistics, and type the keyword
> you like.
>
> Sandra van der Geer
> Leiden, NL
> info at ticonsole.nl
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                 Part 1.2       Type: application/ms-tnef
>                            Encoding: base64




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 19 18:52:45 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 11:52:45 -0700
Subject: Crossposting an intriguing request (from RISA-L)
Message-ID: <161227040958.23782.8819372292708404325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 The question is: should we lett the
>market alone take care of the inkome distribution and then leave its
>failures to non-govenrmental charity, or should the government
>overrule the market and distribute income in accordance with its
>opinion of what fairness is.>>

  I remember reading about this topic a long time ago in Prof Amartya
Sen's book about famines.( I don't remember the exact name of the book,
but this is a standard text-book about famine causes and steps taken to
prevent/solve such problems). In the introductory chapters,
where the historical recording of famines is described, he quotes verses
from Chanakya's "Arthasastra" which say that the government should be
the ultimate arbiter of income distribution. It may be worthwile to
consult Dr Sen'd book which also lists the exact sloka numbers and other
details in the "arthasastra".



  There is also a reference( if my memory serves me correctly) to this
in "Choice, Welfare, DEvelopment: A festschrift for Dr Amartya Sen"
edited by Kaushik Basu, Clarendon press, Oxford where he refers to a
paper by Sukhamaya Chakravarty(?) who comments on a Buddhist text in
reference to the same question.

  Hoping to help,

Regards,
Krishna

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jul 19 12:28:51 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 14:28:51 +0200
Subject: Downloadable pictures
Message-ID: <161227040954.23782.1475180933474982398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the net!

Here is a summary of the information I received regarding downloadable
pictures with Indian motives. I have not had the chance to check all of
these sites out, but I hope they contain fascinating material!

http://www.christies.com/
http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html
http://www.asianart.com/index.html
http://www.investindia.com/coverpage.html
http://www.fh-koeln.de/insider/insider3/alchi.html
http://www.fh-koeln.de/insider/insider3/kultur.html (Alchi)
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:80/arth/meister/pakistan.html
http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/
http://www.goloka.com/
http://www.lakshmi.com/
http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/coins.html
http://www.library.upenn.edu/etext/sasia/aiis/index.html
http://dept.arth.upenn.edu/nalin/nalin.html
http://www.si.edu/asia/puja/start.htm
http://www.uwm.edu/People/ncm2/index.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Chitaree/index.html

Thanks to everybody who contributed!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jul 20 00:55:59 1998
From: fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM (Christina Fritsch)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 17:55:59 -0700
Subject: Distinction between dana & daksina in RgVeda
Message-ID: <161227040959.23782.7240611417889986728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone clarify the difference between the term 'dana' used in the
dana-stuti hymns of the RgVeda and the use of 'daksina' in later Vedic
literature ?  Does this indicate a shift in the rules governing
'gift-exchange' or redistribution of wealth ?

Regards,

C.Fritsch.






_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Sun Jul 19 17:37:11 1998
From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 19:37:11 +0200
Subject: Crossposting an intriguing request (from RISA-L)
Message-ID: <161227040956.23782.15441753560752245304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     To: Multiple recipients of list <risa-l at lists.acusd.edu>
     Subject: Relions and income distribution (fwd)
     From: "F. Smith" <fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
     Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:28:47 -0700 (PDT)

I received this very peculiar (and at the same time intriguing) request
from an uncharted quarter of cyberspace. Does someone with more interest,
time, and energy than me want to deal with this?

Fred Smith

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:23:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: niclas nilsson <niclasnilsson at yahoo.com>
Subject: Relions and income distribution

Hello!
My name is Niclas Nilsson and I am working for the Swedish Taxpayers
association. We are currently  researching different theories  and
problems of income redistibution. The question is: should we lett the
market alone take care of the inkome distribution and then leave its
failures to non-govenrmental charity, or should the government
overrule the market and distribute income in accordance with its
opinion of what fairness is.

We have now gone through the modern thinkers from the enlightenment to
today (Hobbes, Marx, Harsanyi, Rawls, Nozic, Gautier
..). They all
have one thing in common, namly that they exclude religious thoughts
from their theories of income redistribution. We have therefore in
order to make our projekt more balanced decided to look into the major
religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddism, Hinduism and
Chinese philosophy) and se what they have to say about income
redistribution.

We are specificly looking for research on the above mentioned
religions that deals with the rich and the poor, charity, taxes, the
role of government or rulers and wealth in relation to the meaning of
life. Unfortunately it seems like very little such research has been
done in Sweden, so I decided to check out and se if what I am looking
for is availible oversees. I would appreciate if you, in case you no
of any such research, could mail me that information. It would be of
great help and value as I feel that this debate on income
redistribution would greatly benefit from an injection of id?as that
has a religious basis.

Sincerly,

Niclas Nilsson
Assistant investigator
The Taxpayers Association of Sweden




From Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK  Mon Jul 20 10:29:21 1998
From: Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Alan Thew)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 11:29:21 +0100
Subject: repost for lmfosse@online.no
Message-ID: <161227040963.23782.13632985639624333254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[by list.admin at liverpool.ac.uk]

Dear members of the net!
Here is a summary of the information I received regarding downloadable
pictures with Indian motives. I have not had the chance to check all of
these sites out, but I hope they contain fascinating material!
http://www.christies.com/
http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html
http://www.asianart.com/index.html
http://www.investindia.com/coverpage.html
http://www.fh-koeln.de/insider/insider3/alchi.html
http://www.fh-koeln.de/insider/insider3/kultur.html (Alchi)
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:80/arth/meister/pakistan.html
http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/
http://www.goloka.com/
http://www.lakshmi.com/
http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/coins.html
http://www.library.upenn.edu/etext/sasia/aiis/index.html
http://dept.arth.upenn.edu/nalin/nalin.html
http://www.si.edu/asia/puja/start.htm
http://www.uwm.edu/People/ncm2/index.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Chitaree/index.html
Thanks to everybody who contributed!
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From prince at MX.KOBE-SHINWA.AC.JP  Mon Jul 20 05:16:44 1998
From: prince at MX.KOBE-SHINWA.AC.JP (Matsumura)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 14:16:44 +0900
Subject: Q: The Hibbert Journal
Message-ID: <161227040961.23782.7966997535552324464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members
I would like to know about religious background of _The Hibbert Journal --
A Quarterly Review of Religion, Theology, and Philosophy_ (Oct. 1902 - Jan.
1963). London-Oxford: Williams and Norgate.  Did any special religious
group found this journal?  The editor of the early stage was L.F. Jacks.
What kind of sect or school did he belong to?
If anybody gives some instruction, I am very grateful.


Hisashi MATSUMURA   prince at kobe-shinwa.ac.jp




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jul 20 13:18:01 1998
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 14:18:01 +0100
Subject: Postpone
In-Reply-To: <01BDAA78.78B27280@annexr2-37.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Message-ID: <161227040964.23782.4529191977188748133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Arash Zeini wrote:

> Is the postpone command not available anymore?

I believe so.  The way to find out is to send the message "help" to the
address "listserv at liverpool.ac.uk".

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.
--
NB: I shall be on vacation from 24 July to 10 August inclusive.




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jul 20 22:42:16 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 17:42:16 -0500
Subject: A hen-pecked husband of antiquity - viSNupurANa
Message-ID: <161227040966.23782.7010634880951669817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:23 PM 7/17/98 +0500, Sarma wrote:
>Given below is an account of a classical hen-pecked husband from
>viSNupurANa (4.12.12-32)
>
That is why, it is said -
Your mother is your misfortune, a wife is your own fault ! :)

Subrahmanya




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jul 21 06:44:09 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 23:44:09 -0700
Subject: prajnAnam Anandam brahma
Message-ID: <161227040970.23782.9696708433670337774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can somebody point me to a reference in one of the principal upanishads
where the sentence prajnAnam Anandam brahma occurs? aitareya has
prajnAnam brahma, while bRhadAraNyaka has vijnAnam Anandam brahma. I
couldn't find a reference where prajnAnam and Anandam are put together.

Thanks,

Vidyasankar


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jul 20 22:56:43 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 00:56:43 +0200
Subject: A hen-pecked husband of antiquity - viSNupurANa
Message-ID: <161227040968.23782.1999535716102904959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 17:42 20.07.98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:23 PM 7/17/98 +0500, Sarma wrote:
>>Given below is an account of a classical hen-pecked husband from
>>viSNupurANa (4.12.12-32)
>>
>That is why, it is said -
>Your mother is your misfortune, a wife is your own fault ! :)

Forgive a silly question: Is this said in India - with arranged marriages?

(Of course, in the West the sentence is laden with meaning...) :-)

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45

Check out: http://www.nofsa.uio.no




From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH  Tue Jul 21 08:51:46 1998
From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 08:51:46 +0000
Subject: prajnAnam Anandam brahma
Message-ID: <161227040971.23782.12923088924972157167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Trouve dans la "Mathamna-upanisad", 4eme paragraphe, in  :
TITRE: Upanisat-samgrahah : containing 188 Upani{.sads / ed. with sanskrit
introd. by J.L. Shastri
LIEU/DATE: Delhi ; Varanasi [etc.] : M. Banarsidass, 1984. 2eme partie, p. 48.
(reference trouvee par le "Upanisad-vakhya-maha-kosa". Delhi, 1987).
Mais ce n'est pas une upanisad principale.
Tout de bon.

Francois



Meilleures salutations       .  At 23:44 20.07.98 PDT, you wrote:
>Can somebody point me to a reference in one of the principal upanishads
>where the sentence prajnAnam Anandam brahma occurs? aitareya has
>prajnAnam brahma, while bRhadAraNyaka has vijnAnam Anandam brahma. I
>couldn't find a reference where prajnAnam and Anandam are put together.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Vidyasankar
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
Francois Obrist
Section de langues et civilisations orientales
Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne
CH-1015 Lausanne
e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch




From tcahill at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jul 21 18:50:36 1998
From: tcahill at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Tim Cahill)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 14:50:36 -0400
Subject: a book on scanning texts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.980520151407.58447U-100000@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227040973.23782.15550795339797188211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

About a year ago I was asked by someone on the list for information
regarding the effects of photocopying and scanning on manuscripts. I've
just recently come to know of the following:

        The Digitization of Primary Textual Sources
        by Peter Robinson
        Office for Humanities Communication Publications, No. 4
        Oxford University Computing Services, 1993.

A note on the last page (p. 104) says:

Copies can be obtained from The Office for Humanities Communication,
Oxford University Computing Services, 13 Banbury Road, Oxford  OX2 6NN,
enclosing cheque made payable to Oxford University Computing Services.
(The cost is 5 pounds.) Addition for postage and packing per copy:
1 pound for UK and Europe, 3 pounds outside Europe.

 best, Tim Cahill




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Tue Jul 21 21:49:35 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 01:49:35 +0400
Subject: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227040975.23782.17289296174987693011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
         participants of the recent discussion on horses, chariots, wheels etc.
will probably find some new useful information in an article written by a Russian
archaeologist now living in the USA:
        Yelena Izbitser. Wheeled vehicles and the home of the Indo-Europeans. -
Proceedings of the Seventh UCLA Indo-European Conference, Los Angeles, 1995.
Journal of Indo-European Studies, No. 27. 1998.
        The paper deals not with chariots, but with the earliest wheeled
vehicles: primitive wagons with disk-shaped wheels.
        Best wishes
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Jul 22 17:49:44 1998
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 10:49:44 -0700
Subject: Horse in Mesopotamia and ancient India
Message-ID: <161227040979.23782.8411070801900063079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,

As I was updating the Sarasvati web with lots of Mesopotamian metallurgical
and weaponry links,I came across this observation by MEL Mallowan (1965, Early
Mesopotamia and Iran, London, Thames and Hudson, p. 123):

"...dating Tepe Hissar IIIB a little before 2000 B.C... in Hissar IIIB the
skull of a horse was found and furthermore the horse is alleged to have been
domesticated at Shah Tepe much earlier still, thus long anticipating the first
appearance of it at Boghazkoy in Central Asia Minor in the early   Hittite
period...."

Tepe Hissar is a key archaeological site with vivid links to the Sarasvati
Sindhu civilization with many seals, motifs, artefacts...

Regards,
S. Kalyanaraman
kalyan99 at netscape.net
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail




From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN  Wed Jul 22 12:33:00 1998
From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 18:03:00 +0530
Subject: Micro Subject Booklists from DKA
Message-ID: <161227040977.23782.7906443330339764740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You are welcome to visit newly installed section called
"Micro Subject Booklists" on our website. Through this
section we shall offer booklists on very specific subjects
to meet the requirements of scholars/librarians.
The URL is:

http://www.dkagencies.com/microlst.asp

Please excuse us for any cross postings.

Thanks
Surya P. Mittal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053
A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067
Najafgarh Road               Orders ->E-mailto:ordproc at dkagencies.com
New Delhi - 110 059.         E-mailto:custserv at dkagencies.com

           Our Website :     http://www.dkagencies.com
         Online Search :     http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM  Thu Jul 23 02:08:34 1998
From: hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM (Harold F. Arnold)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 19:08:34 -0700
Subject: Turtles in Vedic Sacrifice and the Dravidian concept of
In-Reply-To: <4a05fb3.35b02a19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227041017.23782.6022634552694393574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In two separate postings S. Palaniappan writes,

>In a CT poem, the longing of hero's heart for the company of his beloved is
>compared to the desire of the turtle in/near the vedic sacrificial pit with
>rising fire, for the pond with (cool) shade.

and,

>It is interesting that in a quintessential Tamil love poem we find a poet from
>a hunter background using elements of a very specific Vedic ritual!


        Isn't it more likely that we are dealing with a poet from a Vedic
ritual background who is assuming the persona of a hunter?




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Thu Jul 23 16:32:56 1998
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 09:32:56 -0700
Subject: Horse in Mesopotamia and ancient India
Message-ID: <161227040984.23782.5580909302828554887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Yaroslav Vassilkov wrote:  >From yavass Thu Jul 23 15:55:49 MSD 1998
[snip]This region (southeast of Caspian sea) is supposed by many
  scholars to be the earliest centre of horse domestication in the Near East.
But Tepe Hissar in its periods III B and C demonstrates close cultural
connections not with the Indus/Sarasvati civilization, but with
  Margiana/Bactria and Mittanni in Syria - both cultures being probably
  connected with the movements of Indo_Iranian and Indo-Aryan tribes.
  See works by Ghirshman, Mallory and some recent articles by Asko Perpola.
So, if the aim is to prove that the first centre of horse
>  domestication was in India, this argument does not work.

Let me add the following information in the context of the horse argument,
which susbtantiate Vassilkov's observations on the movements of people
(without any aim to prove the first centre of domestication, but only to
correct the impressions that since the Harappan inscriptions do not depict the
horse, the animal did not exist there during the Mature phase of the
civilization):

[A.K.Sharma, The Harappan horse was buried under the dunes of..., in
Puratattva, Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society, No. 23, 1992-93,
pp. 30-34]: "At Surkotada the bones of the true horse (equus caballus Linn.)
identified are from Period IA, IB and IC. (radiocarbon dates: 2315 B.C., 1940
B.C. adn 1790 B.C respectively). With the correction factors, the dates fall
between 2400 B.C. and 1700 B.C... In 1938 Mackay (FEM, Vol. I, p. 289) had
remarked on the discovery of a clay model of horse from Mohenjodaro. 'I
personally take it to represent horse. I do not think we need be particularly
surprised if it should be proved that the horse existed thus early at
Mohenjo-daro'. About this terracota figurine Wheeler wrote: (Indus
Civilization, Cambridge, 1968, p. 92): 'One terracotta from a late level of
Mohenjodaro seems to represent a horse, reminding us that the jaw bone of a
horse is also recorded from the same time, and that the horse was known at
considerably early period in northern Baluchistan... It is likely enough that
camel, horse and ass were in fact all familiar feature of the Indus
caravans.'... appearance of true horse from the neolithic sites of Koldihwa
and Mahagara in Uttar Pradesh..." (Note: camel is also no depicted on Harappan
inscriptions)

Kalyanaraman

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jul 23 17:09:49 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 12:09:49 -0500
Subject: Horse in Mesopotamia and ancient India
Message-ID: <161227040990.23782.5963737824125474652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 04:05 PM 7/23/98 +0400, you wrote:
>>From yavass Thu Jul 23 15:55:49 MSD 1998
>Tepe Hissar IIIB  yielded also a cylinder seal (dated to c. 2250 B.C.)
>depicting a horse-drawn vehicle. In the same Gurgan culture as well as in
>the neighbouring and contemporary Bronze-Age Margiana/Bactria civilization
>trumpets made of gold and silver (needed in directing chariots in battle)
>have been found. This region (southeast of Caspian sea) is supposed by many
>scholars to be the earliest centre of horse domestication in the Near East.
>
The aim is NOT to prove that the first center of horse domestication was
in India, but it does show that the Harappans could not have been ignorant
about horses. The Akhal Teke has been present in Turkmenistan atleast from
Harappan times. So it is untenable to suggest that the Harappans did not
know horses or did not use them (albeit in smaller numbers -
when compared to cattle - and hence their high value!).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>But Tepe Hissar in its periods III B and C demonstrates close cultural
>connections not with the Indus/Sarasvati civilization, but with
>Margiana/Bactria and Mittanni in Syria - both cultures being probably
>connected with the movements of Indo_Iranian and Indo-Aryan tribes.

Exactly - if there was a migration into India then the influence
must appear later on in India as well, which doesnt seem to be !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>See works by Ghirshman, Mallory and some recent articles by Asko Perpola.
>        So, if the aim is to prove that the first centre of horse
>domestication was in India, this argument does not work.
>
If you notice, the BMAC also did not seem to need any "migrating Aryans" for
its development. On the other hand, the BMAC influence
seems to have spread into Iran (refer to Hiebert,Erdosy Vol).
Also,the BMAC is exactly where the Dasas,Dahyu and the Panis are placed
(Parpola in same vol).

Archeologists see no evidence of Indra Rommels with their chariot panzers
rumbling into India thru mountain passes - despite the vivid imaginations of
a few.

Subrahmanya




From emstern at NNI.COM  Thu Jul 23 18:58:02 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 14:58:02 -0400
Subject: Velthuis' Devanagari 1.5 for TeX on Macintosh
Message-ID: <161227040993.23782.15144634335395506334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Recently, I have been attempting to use Frans Velthuis DevanAgarI for TeX
version 1.5, together with the Devanagari preprocessor for Macintosh (dated
1 March 1997) on OzTeX 3.1 to produce a Sanskrit text edition. After
inputting several folia from the second chapter of the text successfully, I
decided to go back to the first chapter of the text, convert the text
encoding to the Velthuis scheme, enter the necessary LaTeX commands,
including commands to preserve footnotes in the previously entered version,
and produce a text only version (no wordprocessing formats carried over
from the Nisus source document).

The results so far are not quite satisfactory. When I run the Devanagari
preprocessor, I get error messages telling me that there are various
illegal characters in the document (one is @A), but the preprocessor
otherwise successfully converts the document. Searches in the source
document fail to locate this or the other illegal characters.

When I have TeX run the document produced by the preprocessor, it
encounters problems in the text, especially in the 9 point footnotes. For
example, there is a sequence nmU that occurs in the text in 11 point. This
sequence appears in the preview in correct Devanagari type. In the 9 point
footnote, however, I get an error message. The preview fails to give the
full sequence nmU. It gives the Devanagari for mU instead.

In the 11 point text, the sequence Dvi comes out as an unacceptable
sequence of the ligature for i, D (with a virAmaH) and va.

TeX sets only a little more than the first page of output from my many
pages ofmaterial before it gives up.

I hope that someone more experienced in the use of these software
components can offfer some advice. I suspect that part of the problem may
be that the Devanagari preprocessor for Macintosh is out of date for use
with DevanAgarI 1.5. If that is the case, is anyone working on an update of
this preprocessor? Also, is it possible that my text only, Velthuis scheme
encoded, LaTeX document has hidden formats or other hidden illegal
characters carried over from the Nisus document that are causing some of
the problems?

Thanks in advance for any help offered on the Indology list, or through
private communication.

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Thu Jul 23 14:11:51 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 15:11:51 +0100
Subject: CSX+: final draft
Message-ID: <161227040982.23782.10821378120684932254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This message is being posted to both the Indology and Conv-dev mailing
lists. Apologies to those who receive it twice.

Some weeks ago I announced a proposal for an enhanced version of the
CSX character set, to be named CSX+: the aim was to provide a broadly
CSX-compatible encoding containing a number of new characters whose
absence in CSX had caused problems to users. Specifically, it was
proposed that CSX+ should implement all the characters required by the
draft ISO/TC46/SC2 standard for transliteration of Indian languages:
this has been under discussion for the past year on the conv-dev
mailing list, and is now nearing completion.

Recent contributions to the conv-dev discussion have made it
impossible to finalise CSX+ until now, since significant changes to
the draft standard have continued to be debated. However, it does now
appear that a broad consensus may have been reached, and I think the
time has come to agree a definitive version of the encoding.

The attached file contains the proposed definition of the CSX+
character set. It differs in three respects from the previous version:
(1) character 156 is now e-macron-tilde, not sterling (pound sign);
(2) character 180 is now m-breve, not l-underring-acute; (3) character
192 is now o-macron-tilde, not M-overdot. The characters sacrificed
appear to me to be the most readily disposable ones, and their
replacements are necessary: m-breve is used for the Sinhalese
half-nasal before a labial, and e-macron-tilde and o-macron-tilde are
required for citing forms from northern Indian languages in a southern
(or pan-Indian) context.

I would welcome comments on this final draft of the CSX+ "standard".
Assuming it meets with general approval, I shall release a set of
fonts implementing it in about one week's time.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html

# CSX+ encoding for mkt1font and vpl2vpl
#
# Enhanced version of CSX (Classical Sanskrit eXtended encoding)
# for the representation of Indian languages in Roman script
#
# CSX+ aims to be downward compatible with CSX, save for moving aacute
# away from the slot (decimal 160) used as non-breaking space on PCs.
# It also seeks to implement the (draft) ISO/TC46/SC2 standard, while
# retaining a useful set of European accented characters and adding
# dashes and directional double quotes.


128	C cedilla
129	u dieresis
130	e acute
131	a circumflex
132	a dieresis
133	a grave
134	a ring
135	c cedilla
136	e circumflex
137	e dieresis
138	e grave
139	i dieresis
140	i circumflex
141	i grave
142	A dieresis
143	A ring
144	E acute
145	ae
146	AE
147	o circumflex
148	o dieresis
149	o grave
150	u circumflex
151	u grave
152	ae macron		# Was y dieresis in CSX
153	O dieresis
154	U dieresis
155	u breve			# Was cent in CSX
156	emacron tilde		# Was sterling in CSX
157	r underring		# Was yen in CSX
158	a acute
159	r underbar
160	space			# Non-breaking space on PC: was a acute in CSX
161	i acute
162	o acute
163	u acute
164	n tilde
165	N tilde
166	l tilde
167	m overdot
168	amacron breve
169	imacron breve
170	umacron breve
171	amacron tilde
172	imacron tilde
173	n underbar
174	runderring macron	# Was guillemotleft in CSX
175	l underring		# Was guillemotright in CSX
176	lunderring macron
177	runderring acute
178	runderring grave
179	runderringmacron acute
180	m breve
181	amacron acute
182	amacron grave
183	imacron acute
184	imacron grave
185	e macron
186	o macron
187	R underring
188	y overdot
189	umacron acute
190	umacron grave
191	r breve
192	omacron tilde
193	m candrabindu
194	t underbar
195	E macron
196	O macron
197	n breve
198	runderdot acute
199	runderdot grave
200	K h			# Overwritten by next definition
200	Kh underbar
201	k underbar
202	space			# Non-breaking space on Macintosh
203	AE macron
204	k h			# Overwritten by next definition
204	kh underbar
205	g overdot
206	c circumflex
207	runderdotmacron acute
208	a tilde
209	i tilde
210	u tilde
211	e tilde
212	o tilde
213	e breve
214	o breve
215	l underbar
216	umacron tilde
217	G overdot
218	C circumflex
219	h underbar
220	h underbreve
221	endash
222	emdash
223	quotedblleft
224	a macron
225	germandbls
226	A macron
227	i macron
228	I macron
229	u macron
230	U macron
231	r underdot
232	R underdot
233	runderdot macron
234	Runderdot macron
235	l underdot
236	L underdot
237	lunderdot macron
238	Lunderdot macron
239	n overdot
240	N overdot
241	t underdot
242	T underdot
243	d underdot
244	D underdot
245	n underdot
246	N underdot
247	s acute
248	S acute
249	s underdot
250	S underdot
251	quotedblright
252	m underdot
253	M underdot
254	h underdot
255	H underdot




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Jul 23 12:05:00 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 16:05:00 +0400
Subject: Horse in Mesopotamia and ancient India
Message-ID: <161227040980.23782.6127120196609081375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From yavass Thu Jul 23 15:55:49 MSD 1998
Tepe Hissar IIIB  yielded also a cylinder seal (dated to c. 2250 B.C.)
depicting a horse-drawn vehicle. In the same Gurgan culture as well as in
the neighbouring and contemporary Bronze-Age Margiana/Bactria civilization
trumpets made of gold and silver (needed in directing chariots in battle)
have been found. This region (southeast of Caspian sea) is supposed by many
scholars to be the earliest centre of horse domestication in the Near East.
But Tepe Hissar in its periods III B and C demonstrates close cultural
connections not with the Indus/Sarasvati civilization, but with
Margiana/Bactria and Mittanni in Syria - both cultures being probably
connected with the movements of Indo_Iranian and Indo-Aryan tribes.
See works by Ghirshman, Mallory and some recent articles by Asko Perpola.
        So, if the aim is to prove that the first centre of horse
domestication was in India, this argument does not work.
        All the best,
                                Yaroslav Vassilkov

<Hi,

<As I was updating the Sarasvati web with lots of Mesopotamian metallurgical
<and weaponry links,I came across this observation by MEL Mallowan (1965, Early
<Mesopotamia and Iran, London, Thames and Hudson, p. 123):

<"...dating Tepe Hissar IIIB a little before 2000 B.C... in Hissar IIIB the
<skull of a horse was found and furthermore the horse is alleged to have been
<domesticated at Shah Tepe much earlier still, thus long anticipating the first
<appearance of it at Boghazkoy in Central Asia Minor in the early   Hittite
<period...."

<Tepe Hissar is a key archaeological site with vivid links to the Sarasvati
<Sindhu civilization with many seals, motifs, artefacts...

<Regards,
<S. Kalyanaraman
<kalyan99 at netscape.net
<http://sarasvati.simplenet.com

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jul 23 23:23:48 1998
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 16:23:48 -0700
Subject: Velthuis' Devanagari 1.5 for TeX on Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <l03110702b1dd2c30284a@[206.205.247.11]>
Message-ID: <161227040995.23782.17886630427807291545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At one point, the Velthuis preprocessor could not handle
the TAB character. Make sure all TABs are removed and
spaces inserted instead. This is a serious bug that probably
never got fixed.

This is the only thing I can say without actually looking
at your manuscript.

Mani




From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jul 23 16:48:08 1998
From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 22:18:08 +0530
Subject: Saraswati Mahal Library
Message-ID: <161227040986.23782.15420848524374739363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone give me the phone number of the Saraswati Mahal library, Tanjavur?
Yigal Bronner.




From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jul 23 16:48:18 1998
From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 22:18:18 +0530
Subject: Mahabharata commentators
Message-ID: <161227040988.23782.5766570608037743913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for any study on the commentarial tradition of the Mbh.
Any historical survey, study of a specific commentator etc. would be helpful.
Yigal Bronner.




From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jul 24 05:12:21 1998
From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 01:12:21 -0400
Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 22 Jul 1998 to 23 Jul 1998
In-Reply-To: <199807232259.SAA08641@orion.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <161227040998.23782.13164417350008100704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Stern,

Elliot Stern <emstern at NNI.COM> writes:

> I hope that someone more experienced in the use of these software
> components can offfer some advice. I suspect that part of the problem may
> be that the Devanagari preprocessor for Macintosh is out of date for use
> with DevanAgarI 1.5. If that is the case, is anyone working on an update of
> this preprocessor? Also, is it possible that my text only, Velthuis scheme
> encoded, LaTeX document has hidden formats or other hidden illegal
> characters carried over from the Nisus document that are causing some of
> the problems?

Although I have not used OzTeX, Velthuis' Devanagari package, and my
computer as a Mac for a long time, the problem could be in 1) the
process of converting the document from Nisus document to LaTeX source
file, 2) in the preprocessor.

WRT 1): How did you convert the Nisus file to LaTeX source?

WRT 2): If I remember correctly, the older preprocessor was not
compatible with the current package.  If I still have a copy of
CodeWarrior on my hard drive, I will try to compile the source on my
Mac.

I might suggest using Sanskrit package instead if the document
contains no Hindi since the Sanskrit package has more options suited
for Sanskrit texts.  I think there is a Mac build of the preprocessor
for the Sanskrit package.

On the side note, I have been wondering if anyone on the list is
capable of converting C sources of Devanagari/Sanskrit preprocessor to
perl script.  Since perl has been ported to almost every platform and
its scripts requires no compiling, and it is designed to handle text
files, it seems to me that having the preprocessor in perl scripts is
better.  Modifying a C source code is a hassle for a non-programmer
like me...

--
kengo




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jul 24 00:59:46 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 05:59:46 +0500
Subject: Mahabharata commentators
Message-ID: <161227040997.23782.11119227929596506177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:18 PM 7/23/98 +0530, you wrote:
>I am looking for any study on the commentarial tradition of the Mbh.
>Any historical survey, study of a specific commentator etc. would be helpful.
>Yigal Bronner.
>
>

One of the earliest used by BORI is a tika by Devabodha. Bharatiya Vidya
Bhavan has published a small portion of it. Nilakantha's commentary is well
known.

regards,

sarma.




From jftzgrld at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Jul 24 12:08:28 1998
From: jftzgrld at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:08:28 -0400
Subject: Mahabharata commentators
Message-ID: <161227041004.23782.1838188433895911452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The BORI published parts of Devabodha's Jnaanadiipikaa in the 1940s and the
introductions to these provide some useful information.  As far as studies
go, all I know of are sections 14 & 15 of the third volume of Holtzmann's
MBh und seine Theile.  I think the greatest desideratum with regard to MBh
commentaries, and a pre-requisite for any serious comparative study, is an
edition of Arjunamisra.  For the small patches of his commentary I have
seen, I find him more laconic than NiilakaNTha (for whom I have a high
regard),  but also more penetrating.

Jim Fitzgerald
-----Original Message-----
From: Yigal Bronner <yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 12:39 PM
Subject: Mahabharata commentators


>I am looking for any study on the commentarial tradition of the Mbh.
>Any historical survey, study of a specific commentator etc. would be
helpful.
>Yigal Bronner.
>




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jul 24 15:42:21 1998
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:42:21 -0700
Subject: Velthuis' Devnag preprocessor in Perl
In-Reply-To: <19980724011221X.kharimot@postoffice.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041012.23782.5437704583936249544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I ported an early version of Velthuis's Devnag program
to Perl. The Perl version ran much slower in those days (about
5 years ago) but with today's faster computers, it should
be ok. I can send those who are interested the Perl script.
Once again, this is based on an older version of the Devnag
C source file.

Mani




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jul 24 16:27:35 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 10:27:35 -0600
Subject: Dr. Anne Monius' e-mail?
Message-ID: <161227041010.23782.2939306033981232764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can someone provide the e-mail address of
Dr. Anne Monius, please? She teaches at Univ. of Virginia.
Did PhD on Buddhist epic, Manimekalai
from Harvard university in 1997.

With many thanks,
N. Ganesan




From kskora at POST.CIS.SMU.EDU  Fri Jul 24 16:23:10 1998
From: kskora at POST.CIS.SMU.EDU (Kerry M. Skora)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 11:23:10 -0500
Subject: Dr. Anne Monius' e-mail?
In-Reply-To: <01IZRXI95MSI00HW3F@cl.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041014.23782.17727942886927427901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

am9s at virginia.edu

****

Kerry Martin Skora
Department of Religious Studies
Southern Methodist University

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, N. Ganesan wrote:

> Can someone provide the e-mail address of
> Dr. Anne Monius, please? She teaches at Univ. of Virginia.
> Did PhD on Buddhist epic, Manimekalai
> from Harvard university in 1997.
>
> With many thanks,
> N. Ganesan
>




From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ  Fri Jul 24 10:34:30 1998
From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 12:34:30 +0200
Subject: Verse that influenced M. GANDHI
Message-ID: <161227041000.23782.16614361681642061221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Netters,
could any knowledgeable person help me with identifying the source
of the following quotation, a verse that is said to have influenced
young Gandhi's views?

"But the truly noble know all men are one
And return with gladness good for evil done."

Gratefully Yours, J.F.
Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08  Praha 8
phone 004202 6605 3729
e-mail <filipsky at orient.cas.cz>
private: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 - Troja
phone 004202 855 74 53




From emstern at NNI.COM  Fri Jul 24 19:01:09 1998
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 15:01:09 -0400
Subject: Velthuis' Devanagari 1.5 for TeX on Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <199807232323.QAA12802@shasta.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <161227041015.23782.16608020988273266023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to thank Mani Varadarajan, and Kengo Harimoto for your replies
on the Indology list, I am a newcomer to TeX and LaTeX, but with a little
help from you and others, I may yet become a passable user. I have now
produced reasonable preview output from the problem file, and would like to
rest my case for the while.

Mani, I was lucky that I chose to avoid all TABs and other such formats
available in the wordprocessing package, when I did the original input
about eight years ago. Most of the problems seem to have involved invisible
remains of the original keystrokes for Maharshi font.

Kengo, I have for the moment given up on using the Wikner Sanskrit package,
as I have not yet succeeded in getting the Macintosh Sanskrit preprocessor
I have and the current version of the package to work together
satisfactorily.

Thank you.




Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Sat Jul 25 11:07:00 1998
From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 13:07:00 +0200
Subject: Search forTelugu Book
Message-ID: <161227041002.23782.10874228892491310993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for the following book and thought that someone may have
access to it:
Author: vIrarAghavAcarya
Title:  smRti saMgraha
        SarasvatInilaya Press
        Madras 1879
        (in Telugu characters)

As the title says it is a collection of smRti-s. I would be grateful for
the table of contents, or a list of the smRti-s which are printed in the
book. Any related information is highly welcome.

Thanks for reading
jn

--
jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de



Juergen Neuss

Freie Universitaet Berlin

Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte

K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a

14195 Berlin




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jul 25 20:00:16 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 16:00:16 -0400
Subject: Turtles in Vedic Sacrifice and the Dravidian concept of
Message-ID: <161227041019.23782.12191984072632910131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-07-24 20:19:06 EDT, hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM writes:

<< >It is interesting that in a quintessential Tamil love poem we find a poet
from
 >a hunter background using elements of a very specific Vedic ritual!


         Isn't it more likely that we are dealing with a poet from a Vedic
 ritual background who is assuming the persona of a hunter? >>

I am sorry that in my desire to keep the posting short, I left out some
important details. Following the conventions of CT love poems, this poem also
does not contain  the author's name. That information is obtained from outside
the poem.

The name of the poet is eyin2antai makan2 iLaGkIran2Ar "the respected young
kIran2 who is the son of eyin2antai". eyin2antai is a compound of eyin2
(hunter) and tantai (father). According to  U. V. Saminatha Aiyar, the poet
hailed from the hunter community. There are other CT poets from the hunter
community such as:

iLaveyin2an2Ar
eyin2antaiyAr
kaTuvan2 iLaveyin2an2Ar
viRRURu mUteyin2nan2Ar
kazArkkIran2 eyiRRiyAr (female)
kuRamakaL iLaveyin2i (female)
pEymakaL iLaveyin2i (female)

CT poets come from all walks of life.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From lnelson at ACUSD.EDU  Sun Jul 26 21:09:01 1998
From: lnelson at ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 98 14:09:01 -0700
Subject: Pali Manuscript Sale?
Message-ID: <161227041023.23782.4464901479343585806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've been approached by an elderly lady, a member of our local Indian
community.  She has an old Pali palm leaf manuscript that she'd like
to sell.  It's been in her family for ages.  Does anyone have any
suggestions as to how she might go about doing this?

Thanks, Lance
------------------------
Lance Nelson
Religious Studies
University of San Diego
lnelson at acusd.edu




From lnelson at ACUSD.EDU  Sun Jul 26 21:17:07 1998
From: lnelson at ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 98 14:17:07 -0700
Subject: Seeking Vallabhite Text
Message-ID: <161227041024.23782.11353993497612535015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm desperately looking for a copy of the following text by
Purusottama (18th cent.), the Vallabhite acarya:

PuruSottama.  avatAravAdAvalI.  Ed. by H. O. Shastri.  Bombay, 1928.

Interlibrary loan and internet searches have turned up nothing.  If
anyone can help me locate this or any other edition, I'd be very
greatful indeed.

Thanks, Lance
------------------------
Lance Nelson
Religious Studies
University of San Diego
lnelson at acusd.edu




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Sun Jul 26 15:57:21 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 98 16:57:21 +0100
Subject: Velthuis' Devanagari 1.5 for TeX on Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <l03110701b1de87570ede@[206.205.247.43]>
Message-ID: <161227041021.23782.17716055838913377389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have been interested to read the various messages that have appeared on
this topic, as I am now the maintainer of the Velthuis preprocessor. It
appears as though peace has been restored and there is nothing in
particular for me to do on this occasion; however, I'm glad to know that
there are people actively helping to keep the Macintosh version
functioning properly, and in particular to have the name of a user (Kengo
Harimoto) who is in a position to compile new versions for the Mac.

I am also interested to know that Mani Varadarajan has written a Perl
version of the program. Though it may well not tally with the current
version in various ways, and though it will inevitably be slower than the
original C program, I should be very interested to see it. Could you
email me a copy please, Mani?

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sun Jul 26 22:52:32 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 02:52:32 +0400
Subject: Horse in Mesopotamia and ancient India
Message-ID: <161227041027.23782.14729329297350696931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 23 July Sn. Subrahmanya wrote:
>... The Akhal Teke has been present in Turkmenistan atleast from
>Harappan times.
        I am afraid, the "Harappan" antiquity of Akhal Teke horses is
a myth. They appear much later (probably came with the Arabs?).
Archaelolgists working in Central Asia say that in South Turkmenia (in
contrast to North-East Iran = Gurgan region) there is no evidence of
domesticated horse till the Namazga VI period (= Late BMAC).


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>But Tepe Hissar in its periods III B and C demonstrates close cultural
>>connections not with the Indus/Sarasvati civilization, but with
>>Margiana/Bactria and Mittanni in Syria - both cultures being probably
>>connected with the movements of Indo_Iranian and Indo-Aryan tribes.

>Exactly - if there was a migration into India then the influence
>must appear later on in India as well, which doesnt seem to be !

        Yes, and this "influence" is so evident: the practice of chariot
warfare first appears in Gurgan region and BMAC, and THEN in Vedic India.
Could you refer to any evidence of such practice in Indus/Sarasvati
Civilization? I do not mean simply the acquaintance with horse and the
presence of horse remains.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>If you notice, the BMAC also did not seem to need any "migrating Aryans" for
>its development. On the other hand, the BMAC influence
>seems to have spread into Iran (refer to Hiebert,Erdosy Vol).
>Also,the BMAC is exactly where the Dasas,Dahyu and the Panis are placed
>(Parpola in same vol).

        OK, and who were the "Dasas, Dahyu and Panis"? According to Parpola,
whom you refer to, they were Aryans - though not Indo-Aryans, but Eastern
(or Northern) Iranians, proto-Scythians (Aryans all the same)!
       Now most archaeologists seem to agree that BMAC emerged as a result
of a synthesis in which an ancient local culture interacted with Aryan
newcomers (probably, two waves of them: Indo-Aryans from the West and then
Eastern Iranians from the North) - under strong influences from Elam,
Syria/Mesopotamia and Indus/Sarasvati.
       By the way, the discovery of BMAC just makes true the "heretical"
suggestion offered as early as in the 1940-ies and early 1950-ies by
R.N.Dandekar who wrote that the ancestors of Vedic Indians and Avestan
Iranians had lived together in the "region around Balkh" for a pretty long
time before their final separation (see e.g. his article on "VritrahA Indra").
        Best regards
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Mon Jul 27 07:16:47 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 11:16:47 +0400
Subject: Horse in Mesopotamia and ancient India
Message-ID: <161227041030.23782.14860717882725292353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Addition: Recently a rich tomb has been excavated in the upper part of the
Zaraphshan Valley (Tajikistan) with 6 horse psalia (designed to hold the bit
in the horse's mouth) - of the same type as at Sintashta. The dating is 20-18
century B.C., that is later than the new dating of Sintashta and indicating,
as Prof. V. Masson thinks, the movement of horse and chariot driving technique
from the steppe towards south. At the same tomb a figure of the horse at
the top of a bronze pin has been found.
        (This does not contradict in any way what has been said about the
slightly earlier evidence of horses and chariot from the Gurgan area, because
as I said in my previous posting, nowadays it seems more and more probable
that there were two directions of Indo-Iranian infiltration into the BMAC
area: from the West and from the North).

Correction: My guess about Arabs was wrong. The Akhal Teke horses
definitely appear in Central Asia for the first time in the PARTHIAN
period, i.e. in III-I centuries B.C.
        (Prof. Vadim M. Masson, personal communication).
        Best regards,
                                Yaroslav Vassilkov




From Jayant.Bapat at SCI.MONASH.EDU.AU  Mon Jul 27 11:24:53 1998
From: Jayant.Bapat at SCI.MONASH.EDU.AU (Jayant Bapat)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 11:24:53 +0000
Subject: Dana and Dakshina
Message-ID: <161227041028.23782.10822781456968782375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

IN answer to Christina Fritsch's question, I think the following are
the distinctions: Dana: This was (is) given by the kings and the
wealthy on auspicious days or on special occasions to deserving
Brahmins. It was meant to accrue 'Punya' for the donor 'Yajaman'.
Dakshina: This was(is) given to a brahmana for the performance of a
ritual at the request of the Yajamana.It is closest to an honororium
for the services provided. It is not however, a payment for regular
employment as it happens in the case of the temple priests and this
has been the main reason why temple priests have been looked down upon
by the brahmins who are happy to accept Dakshina but will not take a
regular job as a paid priest. Jayant Bapat
v
Dr. Jayant B. Bapat
Chemistry Dept.,Monash University,
Clayton, Victoria, Australia.




From vandana at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Mon Jul 27 13:44:57 1998
From: vandana at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (vandana)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 14:44:57 +0100
Subject: Pali Manuscript Sale?
In-Reply-To: <199807262111.OAA18756@gemini.adnc.com>
Message-ID: <161227041032.23782.7485080224876813862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

regarding the Pali palm leaf manuscript sale: You could try getting in
touch with some of the museums in the States that already have a small but
growing collection of Asian/Indian art. They may be interested. One could
also try the auction houses.


On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Lance Nelson wrote:

> I've been approached by an elderly lady, a member of our local Indian
> community.  She has an old Pali palm leaf manuscript that she'd like
> to sell.  It's been in her family for ages.  Does anyone have any
> suggestions as to how she might go about doing this?
>
> Thanks, Lance
> ------------------------
> Lance Nelson
> Religious Studies
> University of San Diego
> lnelson at acusd.edu
>




From danstender at METRONET.DE  Mon Jul 27 22:45:53 1998
From: danstender at METRONET.DE (Daniel Stender)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 00:45:53 +0200
Subject: Converting Devanagari
Message-ID: <161227041034.23782.2638842184537438612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Folks !

I?ve got some problems using the programm "devawin" which is connected with the TTF "Balaram" in some way.
The man who gave this package to me said that I must type the "Balaram" with diacritics and "DevaWin" is able to convert the whole into nagari via clipboard.
The Problem is that I can?t find any diacricitca within "Balaram".

Can anybody solve this problem ?

Greetings,
Daniel Stender





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980728/71fe3f69/attachment.htm>

From mgansten at SBBS.SE  Tue Jul 28 08:02:55 1998
From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 10:02:55 +0200
Subject: Converting Devanagari
Message-ID: <161227041038.23782.3410959964641763474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Daniel,

The name of the TTF to go with your version of Devawin is different from the
one I bought some years ago. But if it is indeed the same font, you can
switch the diacritic function on and off (provided Devawin is up and
running) by pressing <Alt + ;>. (Depending on your keyboard, it may not
actually be the <;> key, but the <,> or some other; you'll have to
experiment with this.) Once the diacritic function is on, you get diacritics
by using the same <;> key -- that is, ;a gives aa, etc.

Once you have typed the transliterated word, sentence, etc, you cut it, run
Devawin (by <Alt+F5>), paste it, and convert it to the Devanagari font.

Best regards,
Martin Gansten




From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU  Tue Jul 28 15:39:26 1998
From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 11:39:26 -0400
Subject: Experience with GlobalWriter 95/98?
Message-ID: <161227041040.23782.12361225980081466300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Colleagues,

Today I received a notice for a word processing CD ROM which includes in its
scripts, among other world languages, most of the fifteen "major" languages
of India (north and south) AND Sanskrit.  The product, GlobalWriter 98
(professional), is available from Unitype [http://www.unitype.com] at
$49.99.  Does anyone have experience with this program?  If so, does the
Sanskrit program contain all the euphonic combinations, that is, those not
found in Hindi but only in Sanskrit--a problem with some other programs I
have seen?

Three years ago, I talked in Pune with CDAC about adding Sanskrit to their
fine Indic word processing programs.  Does anyone know if they have done
this and, if so, how good is it and what is the price now?

Dan White




From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jul 28 18:22:06 1998
From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 13:22:06 -0500
Subject: Horse in Mesopotamia and ancient India
Message-ID: <161227041042.23782.16734823729714362565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:52 AM 7/27/98 +0400, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote:
>
>        Yes, and this "influence" is so evident: the practice of chariot
>warfare first appears in Gurgan region and BMAC, and THEN in Vedic India.
>Could you refer to any evidence of such practice in Indus/Sarasvati
>Civilization? I do not mean simply the acquaintance with horse and the
>presence of horse remains.

AFAIK, there is no evidence of any sudden increase
of the horse or chariots from 1800BC when the Aryans are supposed to have
trickled in. All the papers by archeologists that I have seen
say that the Harappan and the later Historic sites are a continous local
development  (no dark ages) If you think other wise, please give the references.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        OK, and who were the "Dasas, Dahyu and Panis"? According to Parpola,
>whom you refer to, they were Aryans - though not Indo-Aryans, but Eastern
>(or Northern) Iranians, proto-Scythians (Aryans all the same)!
>

This is what an indeginist would argue...the migration of the Dasa,Dasyu,PaNis
was from the BMAC area westwards.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       Now most archaeologists seem to agree that BMAC emerged as a result
>of a synthesis in which an ancient local culture interacted with Aryan
>newcomers (probably, two waves of them: Indo-Aryans from the West and then
>Eastern Iranians from the North) - under strong influences from Elam,
>Syria/Mesopotamia and Indus/Sarasvati.

Again, AFAIK, the BMAC was a local development. Migrationists try to explain
this away by coming up with bloodless coups executed by the Aryans!!!
Please give the references  to your above statements, then I can look it up
and we would be in a better position to discuss it later.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       By the way, the discovery of BMAC just makes true the "heretical"
>suggestion offered as early as in the 1940-ies and early 1950-ies by
>R.N.Dandekar who wrote that the ancestors of Vedic Indians and Avestan
>Iranians had lived together in the "region around Balkh" for a pretty long
>time before their final separation (see e.g. his article on "VritrahA Indra").
>

Maybe this is yet another example: that what was heresy yesterday becomes
standard history tomorrow - and also note that for a long time many in the west
would not even acknowledge the viewpoints from India!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Onto your second message:

Regarding the Akhalteke, This horse is unique and is one of the oldest breeds.
Since you have already spoken to Prof.Masson, I would like to request you to get
Masson's opinion on the following questions:
1. Is the AkhalTeke native to Turkmenistan ?
2. Are the unique physical features of the Akhalteke because
   of the Turkmen climate and geography ?
3. Is the AkhalTeke one of the four original types that has
   contributed to the modern horse ?
4. Since when has the Akhalteke been present in Turkmenistan ?.
These questions will be important in knowing whethar the Harappans knew
about horses or not .
Also it would be most interesting know the opinions of experts like Meadow on
the Akhalteke.  Also, linguists might want to take a look at the name
Akhalteke itself.


Regards,
S.Subrahmanya




From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU  Tue Jul 28 07:47:58 1998
From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 17:47:58 +1000
Subject: Pali Manuscript Sale?
Message-ID: <161227041036.23782.8134559269901456484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Lance Nelson wrote:
>
>> I've been approached by an elderly lady, a member of our local Indian
>> community.  She has an old Pali palm leaf manuscript that she'd like
>> to sell.  It's been in her family for ages.  Does anyone have any
>> suggestions as to how she might go about doing this?

It may be an idea to check that the palm leaf is in fact in "Pali".

If the MS is from Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand etc. then it is quite possible
that it is Pali and the script will be a definite clue, but if the MS is
from India it is not at all likely to be in Pali. I have heard Prakrit MSS
called "Pali" in India and this may be the case here.

Whatever the case I hope the MS is  investigated and if necessary the
findings published before it is "lost" to a private collection.




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jul 29 10:03:18 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:03:18 +0100
Subject: Experience with GlobalWriter 95/98?
In-Reply-To: <E0z1Bqo-0005vD-00@mailhub2.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227041044.23782.10807842287751154039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, J. Daniel White wrote:

> ...
> Three years ago, I talked in Pune with CDAC about adding Sanskrit to their
> fine Indic word processing programs.  Does anyone know if they have done
> this and, if so, how good is it and what is the price now?

I'm not entirely clear what you would require that isn't already available
in the CDAC products: a good Nagari typeface with very acceptable
conjuncts. Apart from Vedic accents, the only thing missing from the
original DOS word-processor (ALP) is vocalic "l", which seems to have been
missed out by mistake (long vocalic "r" is included). I've printed lots of
Sanskrit out this way, and it looks very nice. I haven't acquired a copy
of the new Windows program (LEAP), so can't report on it: I hope to buy a
copy while I'm in Pune in August, and I'll try and remember to post any
observations I have on it.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jul 29 18:46:03 1998
From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:46:03 -0700
Subject: help for a four year Sanskrit Course
In-Reply-To: <l03130309b1e4dfb201c5@[194.65.251.153]>
Message-ID: <161227041058.23782.9781424254914897957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

University of WAshington, Seattle, Washington 98195.
It is an excellent and very well recognized program.

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Mariana Caixeiro wrote:

> Dear Collegues
> 
> 
> A student of mine got a scholership to study Sansckrit during four years.
> He has to start from the beginning.
> Please can some of you send information of places in Europe, US or India
> where he can attend a four year course and also the cntents of the course
> if possible.
> 
> Thank you in advance
> 
> Mariana C?ndida Caixeiro
> Funda??o Lu?s de Molina
> Universidade de ?vora
> Fax: +351 66 746515
> Tel:  +351 66 746514
> 




From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT  Wed Jul 29 13:24:25 1998
From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 12:24:25 -0100
Subject: Help on the correct email address
Message-ID: <161227041046.23782.7536990974028043330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have been trying to send a mail to Michael Rabe
Assoc. Prof. of Indian Art History
Saint Xavier University
Chicago
& School of the Art Institute of Chicago

But I am always receiving the message back by the mail administrator
This is the email I have : artic.edu at artic.edu (michael Rabe)

Thank you




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Jul 29 16:56:49 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 12:56:49 -0400
Subject: question on the word "ratha"
Message-ID: <161227041056.23782.10134688513316762002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the Cologne online Digital Lexicon, the word "ratha" is given the following
meanings.

ratha
Meaning1 m. (4. %{R}) `" goer "' , a chariot , car , esp. a two-wheeled war-
chariot (lighter and swifter than the %{anas} q.v.) , any vehicle or equipage
or carriage (applied also to the vehicles of the gods) , waggon , cart RV. &c.
&c. (ifc. f. %{A}) ; a warrior , hero , champion MBh. Katha1s. BhP. ; the body
L. ; a limb , member , part L. ; Calamus Rotang L. ; Dalbergia Ougeinensis L.
; = %{pauruSa} L. ; (%{I}) f. a small carriage or waggon , cart S3is3

The word "tariratha" is given the following meaning.

tariratha
Meaningm. `" boat-wheel "' , an oar L.

Has the word "ratha" been used in Sanskrit texts to refer to the wheel per se
instead of the chariot/wagon? Is the meaning "wheel" found in Vedic?

Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT  Wed Jul 29 14:24:22 1998
From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 13:24:22 -0100
Subject: help for a four year Sanskrit Course
Message-ID: <161227041048.23782.3368983636440746458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Collegues


A student of mine got a scholership to study Sansckrit during four years.
He has to start from the beginning.
Please can some of you send information of places in Europe, US or India
where he can attend a four year course and also the cntents of the course
if possible.

Thank you in advance

Mariana C?ndida Caixeiro
Funda??o Lu?s de Molina
Universidade de ?vora
Fax: +351 66 746515
Tel:  +351 66 746514




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jul 29 16:15:03 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 16:15:03 +0000
Subject: SV: help for a four year Sanskrit Course
Message-ID: <161227041053.23782.5694424432011073007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Based on my personal experience, the S?d-Asien Institut in Heidelberg is a very good place to study anything South-Asian. I also had good experience with the Indologisches Seminar at the University of Bonn. The nice thing about Bonn is that you can also follow Indological lectures at the University of Cologne (which I did). Of course, you could also do vice versa!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


----------
Fra:    Mariana Caixeiro[SMTP:naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT]
Svar til:       Indology
Sendt:  29. juli 1998 16:24
Til:    INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Emne:   help for a four year Sanskrit Course

Dear Collegues


A student of mine got a scholership to study Sansckrit during four years.
He has to start from the beginning.
Please can some of you send information of places in Europe, US or India
where he can attend a four year course and also the cntents of the course
if possible.

Thank you in advance

Mariana C?ndida Caixeiro
Funda??o Lu?s de Molina
Universidade de ?vora
Fax: +351 66 746515
Tel:  +351 66 746514

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2036 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19980729/505577cb/attachment.bin>

From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jul 29 15:47:08 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 16:47:08 +0100
Subject: help for a four year Sanskrit Course
In-Reply-To: <l03130309b1e4dfb201c5@[194.65.251.153]>
Message-ID: <161227041049.23782.1049527484005298779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Mariana Caixeiro wrote:

> Dear Collegues
>
>
> A student of mine got a scholership to study Sansckrit during four years.
> He has to start from the beginning.
> Please can some of you send information of places in Europe, US or India
> where he can attend a four year course and also the cntents of the course
> if possible.

As far as I know (I'm not sure about Edinburgh), the only University in
the UK to offer a four-year course is Cambridge. You can get some basic
information off the web page (www.oriental.cam.ac.uk): the course covers a
large range of different types of literature, and involves study of
background culture as well. It can be combined with Hindi if wished, but
is more usually done by itself.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jul 29 16:24:24 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 17:24:24 +0100
Subject: CSX+ fonts now available
Message-ID: <161227041054.23782.8224360741236264140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A large set of fonts implementing the CSX+ character set is now available
on my server. Either connect to the URL below and follow the link to
"fonts", followed by the link to "csx+", or use ftp to connect
anonymously to bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk, and then change directory to
/pub/john/software/fonts/csx+.

Enjoy!

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Wed Jul 29 15:45:45 1998
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 19:45:45 +0400
Subject: Horses in India and Mesopotamia
Message-ID: <161227041051.23782.8153094525364476846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From yavass Wed Jul 29 19:24:52 MSD 1998
Dear Dr. Subrahmanya,
        in your last posting you wrote:

.AFAIK, there is no evidence of any sudden increase
.of the horse or chariots from 1800BC when the Aryans are supposed to have
.trickled in.
        Some months ago I already answered to it. How could there be a "sudden
increase...in chariots" in IVC times, if Harappans did not know any chariots
at all? They had perfectly developed figurative art, and if, as you think,
their culture was Vedic, how could it be that there is no one pictorial
representation of a chariot (we know that the chariot, its concept, its image
played a central role in Vedic religion)? As for the date "1800 BC and after" -
have not many representations of horses been found at Pirak? Have not various
metal items of horse's harness been found on mass scale in the early Megalithic
burials? Is it not a fact that as soon as the Gangetic civilization developed
a figurative art of its own, i.e. in the first centuries BC there appear
pictorial representations of chariots in large numbers (see, e.g. M.Sparreboom.
Chariots in the Veda. Leiden, 1983, Chapter VI).
         You also wrote:

>All the papers by archeologists that I have seen
>say that the Harappan and the later Historic sites are a continous local
>development  (no dark ages) If you think other wise, please give the references.

        But as far as I know, on the contrary, there is NO archaeological site,
where the Harappan culture would steadily grow into something "later Historic",
if only you don't mean by it Late Harappan). The only "exception" was Kaushambi,
with its excavated fortification wall, which archaeologists from
Allahabad University ar first interpreted as being of Harappan origin but used
in historical times. But now the wall is ascribed to Mauryan period, and the
old interpretation, AFAIK, is discarded. If you know any real case of
cultural continuity - then it is up to you to give references.
        On my part, I would gladly look for references and invent arguments,
if only I was sure that my words are heard by my opponent. But I have some
reasons to doubt it. For example, I wrote last time:

   >>The Akhal Teke horses definitely appear in Central Asia for the first time in the
   >>PARTHIAN period, i.e. in II-I centuries B.C. (Prof. Vadim M. Masson,
   >>personal communication).

        And after that you ask:

        >4. Since when has the Akhalteke been present in Turkmenistan ?.
        >These questions will be important in knowing whethar the Harappans knew
        >about horses or not .

        But if one of the two persons talking does not hear or does not want
to hear the words said by another, is there any reason to continue such a
discussion?
                Yours sincerely
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU  Wed Jul 29 22:12:13 1998
From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 08:12:13 +1000
Subject: help for a four year Sanskrit Course
Message-ID: <161227041059.23782.7370780132488271884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Studying Sanskrit in Britain will cost several thousand pounds per year 
in overseas student fees and living expenses will also be rather high 
(I'm not sure about costs in Europe) if the scholarship is generous this 
may not be a problem.

No one so far has recommended a place in India, the course at the 
University of Poona under the directorship of Prof. (Mrs) Saroja Bhate 
would have to be one of the best, if not the best option. They have quite 
a number of overseas students and some courses are even aimed especially 
at overseas students. Pune has a pleasant climate (well summmer can be a 
little warm but the nights are cool).

The courses are flexible and there are lots of friendly students, the 
immersion in Sanskrit is even helped along by Sanskrit-speaking days 
every now and then. It is possible to branch out into such areas as 
philosophy, grammar, kavya, Pali, Prakrits etc. A degree from there in 
Sanskrit would certainly place your student well for future study also, 
I'd suggest you write for a course prospectus to:

Prof. Saroja Bhate
Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages
University of Poona
Ganeshkhind
Pune, Maharashtra
INDIA

Unfortunately I don't have Prof. Bhate?s email address with me at the 
moment but if you email me in a day or so I should have found it by then.

Royce Wiles
Asian History Centre
Faculty of Asian Studies
Australian National University




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jul 30 15:55:04 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 09:55:04 -0600
Subject: Nannuul in English
Message-ID: <161227041062.23782.1828369158500037139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

PavaNanti (fl. 1178-1214)'s Nannuul, next in importance only
to TolkAppiyam, has been translated.

M. K. Sripathi (translator)
Nannuul, a perceptive and comprehensive translation in English.
Madurai, 831 p. 1995




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Thu Jul 30 15:56:36 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 09:56:36 -0600
Subject: M. Rabe's e-mail
Message-ID: <161227041064.23782.17157421199770826127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Michael Rabe's e-mail:
mrabe at artic.edu

Regards
N. Ganesan




From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK  Thu Jul 30 09:06:54 1998
From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 10:06:54 +0100
Subject: help for a four year Sanskrit Course
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980730081024.9436A-100000@leonard.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <161227041061.23782.13599265801599004394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Royce Wiles wrote:

> No one so far has recommended a place in India, the course at the 
> University of Poona under the directorship of Prof. (Mrs) Saroja Bhate 
> would have to be one of the best, if not the best option. They have quite 
> a number of overseas students and some courses are even aimed especially 
> at overseas students. Pune has a pleasant climate (well summmer can be a 
> little warm but the nights are cool).
> 
> The courses are flexible and there are lots of friendly students, the 
> immersion in Sanskrit is even helped along by Sanskrit-speaking days 
> every now and then. It is possible to branch out into such areas as 
> philosophy, grammar, kavya, Pali, Prakrits etc. A degree from there in 
> Sanskrit would certainly place your student well for future study also, 
> I'd suggest you write for a course prospectus to:
> 
> Prof. Saroja Bhate
> Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages
> University of Poona
> Ganeshkhind
> Pune, Maharashtra
> INDIA
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have Prof. Bhate?s email address with me at the 
> moment but if you email me in a day or so I should have found it by then.
> 
> Royce Wiles
> Asian History Centre
> Faculty of Asian Studies
> Australian National University
> 

I don't have direct personal knowlege of the content of the courses in
Pune, but in general terms I would strongly endorse what Royce has said:
it has certainly got to be an option worth checking out. 

Prof. Bhate's email address is saroja at unipune.ernet.in.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Thu Jul 30 17:13:52 1998
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 13:13:52 -0400
Subject: job reposting - BAS
Message-ID: <161227041065.23782.14157761070353997213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Job re-posting:

---------------------------
ASSOCIATE EDITOR FOR SOUTH ASIA,
BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ASIAN STUDIES,
ASSOCIATION FOR ASIAN STUDIES, INC.

and

EDITOR FOR SOUTH ASIA
SOUTH ASIA COOPERATIVE INDEXING PROJECT

The Association for Asian Studies, Inc. seeks an energetic
bibliographer, librarian or scholar to compile, input, and edit
bibliographical entries for Western-language journal articles,
chapters in edited volumes, and conference proceedings, etc. dating
from the 1990s and beyond in all academic disciplines and subject
areas concerning South Asia (Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India,
the Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka) for inclusion in the
Bibliography of Asian Studies (BAS).  The Associate Editor will be
expected to work at the Columbia University Libraries in New York
City, utilizing the Libraries' extensive holdings of South
Asia-related materials. The BAS project is a long-term half-time (20
hours per week) position, funded by the Association for Asian
Studies. The Associate Editor will work closely with and report
directly to Dr. Anna Leon Shulman, Editor of the Bibliography of Asian
Studies.  The successful applicant for this position will also be
expected to assume a second part-time position, doing an additional
10-20 hours per week of similar work at the Columbia University
Libraries in close coordination with the Libraries' South Asia
Librarian, Dr. David Magier, on the South Asia Cooperative Indexing
Project. This retrospective BAS indexing project, sponsored by a
consortium of South Asia libraries, covers older South Asian materials
not previously indexed in the BAS. The position is on the payroll of
Columbia University Libraries, with grant funding from various
sources, and is expected to last at least several years.  (Future
funding for this part-time position, however, is not guaranteed.)

Qualifications: The successful applicant will be expected to have (a)
a strong subject knowledge or background in one or more aspects of
South Asian studies (humanities or the social sciences strongly
preferred), (b) an awareness of the elements of bibliographical work
or cataloging, (c) familiarity with basic computer applications,
including the ability to enter bibliographical data into an electronic
database, (d) the ability to work efficiently and effectively on both
an independent basis and with the Editor of the BAS and the South Asia
Librarian at Columbia.  Some prior bibliographical and/or
library-related experience is desirable.  Familiarity with Macintosh
is preferred but not required.  Working hours can be flexible.

Salary:  Commensurate with experience and qualifications.

Starting Date: As soon as possible.  The search will continue until
the positions are filled.  The initial review will be conducted on
August 10.  It is therefore important that interested applicants be in
communication with the Search Committee by then even if their
applications are not complete.  Applications will be considered
without regard to gender, race, color, creed, age, national or ethnic
origin, or disability.

NOTE: Applicants for the Spring 1998 posting of the BAS position do
not need to resubmit an application, but to be considered, they must
inform both the Editor and David Magier that they are interested in
the position as described in this revised posting.

A formal letter of application including a resume and three or more
letters of references should be sent directly to the Editor with
copies to David Magier as follows:

Dr. Anna Leon Shulman
Editor, Bibliography of Asian Studies
Association for Asian Studies
9225 Limestone Place
College Park, MD 20740-3943

Tel. and Fax: 301-935-5614
aslshulman at aol.com


Dr. David Magier
South Asia Librarian
Columbia University
304 International Affairs
420 West 118 Street
New York, NY  10027

212-854-8046
FAX: 212-854-3834
magier at columbia.edu




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Thu Jul 30 17:30:26 1998
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 13:30:26 -0400
Subject: SARAI: Hindi job posting
Message-ID: <161227041067.23782.5162236512574776793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following job announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list
or listserv from the JOBS section of SARAI (South Asia Resource Access
on the Internet). Please contact Yale directly as indicated. Do not
send queries to me.

David Magier
SARAI
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai

--------------------------------

YALE UNIVERSITY.  The South Asian Studies Committee of the Yale Center
for International and Area Studies invites application for a part-time
lecturer of Hindi language for the academic year 1998-99. The
successful candidate will teach a year-long graduate-level
four-skills course in Hindi to both heritage and non-heritage learners
beginning fall 1998.  Applicants should have native fluency in modern
Hindi or clear proof of full equivalency; language teaching experience
with non-native speaking learners, preferably in an American college
or university setting; solid familiarity with word-processing and
e-mail in both Hindi and English.  Experience in the development of
pedagogical materials in Hindi is preferred. In addition, strong
English skills; familiarity with second-language acquisition theory
and practice; and familiarity with computer-aided language instruction
methods are desirable.

Renewal of this appointment would be contingent upon funding
availability as well as performance review.  This position is
announced solely for Yale University although similar teaching
opportunities at neighboring institutions may be possible.  Yale is
an affirmative action, equal employment opportunity employer.
Applications from women and minority candidates are encouraged.  Send
letter of application, C.V., and contact information for two
recommenders to Barbara Papacoda, South Asian Studies Committee,
P.O. Box 208206, New Haven, CT 06520.  Applications will be reviewed
upon receipt but should be received no later than August 10, 1998.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Thu Jul 30 17:46:26 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 13:46:26 -0400
Subject: Retroflexion in IA
Message-ID: <161227041068.23782.9332832009194392619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A bad case of poison ivy on my left hand made typing painful. That,
with other demands, delayed my replies quite a bit. I hope that it is
not too late pick up the thread again.

George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:

>In deference to the 2k rule I will try to respond briefly, and only to one
>or two points at a time:

The recommended way around the 2k rule is to have a private discussion.
Setting up a temporary mailing list seems overkill. Perhaps the posters
can mail their posts privately to all interested people. I volunteer to
collect the messages and send a digest to Dominik to post on the
Indology page for posterity (if it is interested :-). For now, I will
limit myself to just the first point.

>>In general, if two groups, one which distinguishes two sounds and
>>another which does not but depends on context etc to differentiate
>>words, interact, the typical outcome is for the sounds to merge.

>but in this case I fail to see why the merging of all n's would be the
>necessary outcome of convergence.

I based this on something I read about dialect interactions. My laziness
in keeping a notebook has come back to haunt me: I cannot locate the
book where I read it. [This was specifically about Pittsburg dialect.]
The basic argument is as follows: Dialect A distinguishes two phonemes P
and Q. Dialect B does not. Speakers of B rely on context etc. to tell
the words apart. This works even if P and Q are pronounced differently.
But speakers of A rely only on the sound and have trouble understanding
B-speakers. With repeated interaction, A-speakers start relying on context
to tell words apart. So the difference between P and Q becomes irrelevant.

Given the distributional peculiarities in Dravidian, the same argument
should work for n. In Dravidian, n occurs word-initially and before t;
_n everywhere else. Sanskrit anu would come out a_nu. If Sanskrit speakers
hear it as a.nu, then the anu vs a.nu distinction is lost. The same
works in reverse. [I don't know PDr lexion, so I will use Tamil.] Tamil
pa_ni and pa.ni will come out the same from Sanskrit speaker's mouth. In
both cases, the speakers must rely on context to distinguish the words,
leading to the irrelevance of the phonemic distinctions.

>Yes, the RUKI rule is older than PIA, affecting Iranian as much as Indic.

So the only question now is the pronunication:-) Or how substratum can
cause sounds that did not exist in it.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Thu Jul 30 17:48:17 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 13:48:17 -0400
Subject: double accusatives
Message-ID: <161227041070.23782.15540523859442165234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer <info at TICONSOLE.NL> wrote:

>As we all observe that there is `some' difference between the two
>accusatives.

But the real question is which is the `higher object' or whatever you
want to call it. In effect, the question is the precise semantics of
``dar"sayati''.

Boris Oguibenine wrote

>The point is that "pustakam darzayati/dadAti" is a complete utterance,
>whereas "*tam darzayati/dadAti" is an ellipsed utterance.

But it is precisely this that I am unsure of. If dar"sayati means `make
somebody see something', ``pustakam dar"sayati'' is incomplete. ``Make
see the book'' is no less incomplete than ``show him''. We cannot
analyze the syntax of a language based on translations to another, or
even a latter stage of the same language.

To give an example: In English, one says ``Milk the cow'' with milking
being something one does to the cow. In Modern Tamil, the typical
expression is ``paal ka_ra'', literally ``extract the milk'', with milk
as the object. There is a difference in the semantics of `milk' vs
`ka_ra', which makes for a difference in the passive. We cannot say that
the ablative is raised to the subject in ``cow is being milked'' because
in Tamil, the active is ``[maa.t.tiliruntu] paal ka_rakkiraan''. [I
deliberately chose this example because it is interesting to read the
Mahabhashya on double accusatives from this angle.]

The basic problem is that the definition of `direct object' depends on
the precise semantics of the verb. When semantics changes, the syntax
may or may not change in step [compare yaj]. We need to keep this in
mind before looking at passivization.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Thu Jul 30 17:48:58 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 13:48:58 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041071.23782.13568658532073922130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

>This is what Burrow says: "Intervocalically a single unvoiced consonant in
>Sanskrit very often replaces a double consonant in Dravidian.

Analogical reasoning would lead us to expect single intervocalic stops
in Dravidian loans to be voiced in Sanskrit. But there is no apparent
pattern here. Hamp restricts F's law to l[t|th|s]. This makes the
problem worse.

Even in case of doubled stops, there are examples with doubled stops in
Sanskrit also: ku.t.t, hu.dukka etc. As Drav. shows variation between
-CC- and -C- between languages, these are best taken as reflecting the
sound of the source langugage.

>This example also shows variations between alveolar, dental and
>retroflex.

All the examples of variation are based on _t/_t_t. We don't see t or
.t changing. What we see here is change in Dravidian dialects where _t
changes to something else, and the Sanskrit borrowings reflect what
happened in the source language. This is very different from
`Dravidians >mis<pronunciation of alveolars as retroflexes' theory
which implies that >all< alveolars must have become retroflexes.

>In many colloquial situations, L does not become T before consonants
>like k, c, and p. Malayalam which has severed its connections with
>centamiz offers evidence for the unique nature of t vs k, c, and p.

The trouble is that these are attested at a much later date. The
presence of words like `kalki' shows that -lk- is acceptable in Modern
Tamil. But that tells us nothing about the situation in early First
Millennium BCE. Anyway, quoting Tolkappiyam (how old is that name?)
for one part of the argument and rejecting it elsewhere leaves
something to be desired.

Analogical restoration is a known process. We need to be sure that it
did not happen here, i.e. that -lk- etc were possible in proto-Dravidian,
but that -lt- > _t_t and -Lt- > -.t.t-. The standard sources have nothing
about morpho-phonemics of proto-Dravidian. If we rely on Tolkappiyam
instead, the troulbe remains.

-------

We have been talking only about .t. But, there has been no attempt to
explain how Dravidian with its n/_n vs .n contrast could lead to n/_n
phoneme being split into n vs .n. I have not seen any reason to change
my view that convergence should in fact lead to collapsing of all
distinctions.

And nobody has even touched .s, the most commonly retroflexed sound in
Sanskrit. I see no way of getting there from s-hacek. And why would
Dravidian, with prominent lack of sibilants in the earliest stages
lead to a split in sibilants? I am yet see any one pick up this
gauntlet.

In sum, it is quite premature to assume that Dravidian origin of
retroflexes is established fact. If you have not explained .s, you have
explained nothing about the origin of retroflexes in IA.




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Thu Jul 30 18:45:27 1998
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 14:45:27 -0400
Subject: double accusatives
Message-ID: <161227041073.23782.10093619017452804081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyanath wrote:

[..]

@The basic problem is that the definition of `direct object' depends on
@the precise semantics of the verb. When semantics changes, the syntax
@may or may not change in step [compare yaj]. We need to keep this in
@mind before looking at passivization.

     This is exactly my point too. Semantics or semantic angle
     of the verb is important. The same verb, roughly meaning the same
     action in two different language, may not have the same
     connectivity with object or objects in different languages.


     Selva




From mcv at WXS.NL  Thu Jul 30 19:06:49 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 19:06:49 +0000
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
In-Reply-To: <199807301748.NAA04272@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041074.23782.2963027276067328135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidhyanath Rao <vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU> wrote:

>And nobody has even touched .s, the most commonly retroflexed sound in
>Sanskrit. I see no way of getting there from s-hacek.  And why would
>Dravidian, with prominent lack of sibilants in the earliest stages
>lead to a split in sibilants? I am yet see any one pick up this
>gauntlet.
>
>In sum, it is quite premature to assume that Dravidian origin of
>retroflexes is established fact. If you have not explained .s, you have
>explained nothing about the origin of retroflexes in IA.

Certainly the development of <s^> (Ascii-IPA [S]) out of PIE *s after
<i>, <u>, <r>, <k> has nothing to do with Dravidian, as it also
happened in Iranian, Slavic, Baltic and possibly Armenian.  The
development of this <s^> ("sh") to <s.> (retroflex) has nothing to do
with Dravidian either, but with the development of PIE *k^ to the
palatal shibilant <s'>.  This, as has happened relatively recently in
Polish, Russian and Mandarin Chinese, caused the old shibilant to be
backed to <s.> (Polish sz vs. s', Russian sh vs. shch, Mandarin sh
vs. x).  In Proto-Slavic RUKI /s^/ was backed to /x/ (velar
fricative) [except when palatalized] instead.  In Baltic RUKI /s^/
was allowed to merge with /s^/ < *k^.  In Iranian *k^ appears as /s/,
presumably by way of k^ > c^ ("ch") > c ("ts") > s [without a stage
as s^].   In tabular form:

        *s^ (RUKI)  *k^ (SATEM)
Skt.    s.          s'
Iran.   s^          s < c
Slav.   x           s < s^
Balt.   s^          s^



=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From mdje at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul 31 05:29:17 1998
From: mdje at HOTMAIL.COM (Manoje Jain)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 22:29:17 -0700
Subject: MRML's brand new internet site
Message-ID: <161227041076.23782.15160330180643473177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends

You may please visit MUNSHIRAM MANOHARLAL PUBLISHERS' brand new site at:

http://members.xoom.com/mdje/main.html

Sincerely,

Munshiram Manoharlal
Publishers Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Fri Jul 31 13:20:23 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 09:20:23 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041078.23782.14557052757325991141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv at WXS.NL> wrote:
>         *s^ (RUKI)  *k^ (SATEM)
> Iran.   s^          s < c

Does this mean that in Iranian, s>h and c>s occurred simultaneously,
without c becoming a shibilant first? I thought that assibiliztion of
c typically went through an `sh' stage first.

The fundemental question is the historical sequence of the three
changes in Iranian, without any two sounds even getting mixed up.
I don't see how to do it, if we insist that RUKI-s was always sh in
Iranian.

Regards
-Nath




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jul 31 15:56:17 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 09:56:17 -0600
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041079.23782.14094654737641863223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

V. Rao writes:
>Anyway, quoting Tolkappiyam (how old is that name?)
>for one part of the argument and rejecting it elsewhere leaves
>something to be desired.

>?From Columbia university seminar on Indology,
Prof. M. A. Selby, Dialogues of Space, Desire, and Gender in
Cankam Tamil Poetry and Poetics, Jan. 29, 1998
(available in the web at South Asia Gopher site)

"The Tolkappiyam itself, whose name means the 'old text', is of
uncertain date. Some divide into two strata, one part being
composed in the 2nd century B.C.E. and the latter some seven
centuries later. Another scholar claims that it could only have
been written by one author -all composed in 2nd century C.E.
Another scholar provides a clear and convincing account which
divides it into four parts,the oldest composed between the first
and third centuries C.E. andthe later sections
in the 4th through the 6th."

 The name of the text is found in the manuscripts from which
 it was printed in the last century, in later commentaries
 on it and later grammars.

 Evidently, the TolkAppiyam rule and Fortunatov rule have
 some connexions, as elicited by Stephen Levitt and S. Palaniappan.

 F.'s rule is being revised often, eg., Hamp, Amendment
 to F.'s law, 1981; Hamp, Revised amendment to F's law, IIJ, 1983.
 Likewise, TolkAppiyar's and Fortunatov's relations can be
 explored much further.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Jul 31 16:37:26 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 10:37:26 -0600
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041082.23782.10026609325532158067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The trouble is that these are attested at a much later date. The
>presence of words like 'kalki' shows that -lk- is acceptable in Modern
>Tamil. But that tells us nothing abouut the situation in early First
>Millenium BCE. [...]

>Analogical restoration is a known process. We need to be sure that it
>did not happen here, i.e., that -lk- etc were possible in proto-Dravidian,

 -lk- in Tamil was/is possible all the time. Not just kalki
 a medieval or later borrwing from Sanskrit.

 Just two examples from Old Tamil,
 cel + katir = celkatir (going sun)
 pal + kalai = palkalai (many arts, talented)
 and so on.

N. Ganesan




From mcv at WXS.NL  Fri Jul 31 15:06:27 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 15:06:27 +0000
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
In-Reply-To: <199807311320.JAA24499@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041081.23782.17737313813729006253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidhyanath Rao <vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU> wrote:

>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv at WXS.NL> wrote:
>>         *s^ (RUKI)  *k^ (SATEM)
>> Iran.   s^          s < c
>
>Does this mean that in Iranian, s>h and c>s occurred simultaneously,
>without c becoming a shibilant first? I thought that assibiliztion of
>c typically went through an `sh' stage first.

In Romance, CE/CI (/ke/, /ki/) first developed to /c^/ ("ch")
(Italian, Romanian), then to /c/ ("ts") (Old French, Old Spanish),
then to /s/ (French, Catalan, Portuguese) or to /T/ (Spanish, > s in
Southern and American Spanish).  There was no stage with /s^/.

On the other hand, in French, Latin CA later became /ke/ > /c^e/ >
/s^e/ (e.g. "cheval", /s^@val/, Old French still /c^eval/).

We see the same things in Semitic, where PS *c^ developed to /s^/ in
some languages (Akkadian, Hebrew), to /T/ > /t/, /s/ in others
(Arabic, Ethiopic, Aramaic).

Other examples can be given from Slavic.

In general the main developments seem to be:

c^ => s^
   => c => s
        => T => s
             => t

>The fundemental question is the historical sequence of the three
>changes in Iranian, without any two sounds even getting mixed up.
>I don't see how to do it, if we insist that RUKI-s was always sh in
>Iranian.

I don't see what else it could have been: it's "sh" in Balto-Slavic
too.  I see the Iranian developments as:

              1.    2.    3.
*s         =>    => h  => h
*sC        =>    =>    => s
*{ruki}s   => s^ =>    => s^
*k^        => c^ => c  => s


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  3 23:03:36 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna (by way of jacob.baltuch@euronet.be Jacob Baltuch))
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 00:03:36 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227040520.23782.14635966236386363357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------------------------------------------------------------------
>AUTHOR, ETC.: Walker, George Benjamin, 1913-
>TITLE: The Hindu world; an encyclopedic survey of Hinduism by Benjamin
Walker.
>IMPRINT: New York, Praeger [c1968]
>
 << The Indo-Iranian triabl
>communities gave place to new territorial kingdoms situated on great
>rivers and the jungle retreats of the rishis.  The old Iranian gods
>faded in importance and were substituted by deities of new
dimensions,Brahmaa, Shiva, VishNu, KrishNa, the Naagas, the Linga.>>

I am a little lost here...what exactly am I supposed to understand by
saying that kingdoms on great rivers and jungle retreats of the rishis?
Were they independent each of other? Er, no...Dr walker should know that
there was a lot of interaction between the RSis and the kings

Secondly, when did the Nagas become Gods ?

>Tibeto-Burmese or north-eastern loan words include Bhullam-buthur,
>'making a gurgling sound', which became Sanskritized into Brahmaputra,
>the name of India's largest river.

This seems to be a very..ahem... interesting theory and I would like to
know what establioshed scholars think of this...I would like to point
out
1. Tsangpo is the Tibetean name for the Brahmaputra.
2. Many tibetean name places and proper names are themselves from
Samskrt and have undergone the *Cunning changes* FROM samskrt (alluded
to by Dr Walker)..also , is "bhullum" phonetically correct? I have been
assured that the letters gh, jh, th, bh are missing in tibetean
(This from somebody who has studided Tibetean formally for ten long
years).

>
>
 << Charioteers were court bards and their familiarity with
>the priestly tongue does not necessarily indicate an acquantance with
>it on the part of the general public.>>

This, AFAIK, is inconsistent with : 1. The fact that Karna in the MBh
was insulted as the "Son of a charioteer" i.e. the status being very
much lower than a court bard....charioteers were not all that familar
with the priestly tongue and and were not court bards...


>Modern Hindu reformers have frequently reiterated the same plaint, and
have advoacated the abandonment of Sanskrit as a vehicle of thought
expression.  As Raammohan Roy put it,
>
>' The Sanskrit language, so difficult that almost a lifetime is
>necessary for its acquisition, is well known to have been for ages a
>lamantabel check to the diffusion of knowledge, and the learning
>concealed under this almost impervious veil is far from sufficient to
>reward the labour of acquiring it'.>>

Oh really! Boy, I wonder why Dayananda Saraswati, who was also a social
reformer in the 19th century went to the other end and insisted on
everybody learning Samskrt? Please also read about the
politics/activities of the DharmarakSana sabhA in Madras in the early
part of the century; you will soon discover how wrong the above
statement( about reformers that is) is...

Sidestory: In the not-too-distant past, somebody ;-) quoted the Same Dr
Walker about the deleterious effect that Samskrt had on other languages
and asked Dr George Hart for his reaction.. Dr Hart's reply was that
such ideas were decidedly fascist.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com