From russel at RHI.HI.IS Fri Jan 2 08:02:44 1998 From: russel at RHI.HI.IS (Russel Steven Moxham) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 08:02:44 +0000 Subject: Physical impediment, and fighting prowess, in Mahabharata In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19971229183621.22a793d2@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034557.23782.2294927435640677502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sarma! Actually I can't read Sanskrit--even if it's romanized. Also I figure there's a font I'm lacking to be able to read your transcription as I think it must have been intended. However, I can see from the Drono references that you've sent me the right stuff--so thanks a lot! I'd best be off to the library... Regards, Russ From russel at RHI.HI.IS Fri Jan 2 08:06:07 1998 From: russel at RHI.HI.IS (Russel Steven Moxham) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 08:06:07 +0000 Subject: Physical impediment, and fighting prowess, in Mahabharata In-Reply-To: <199712292016.OAA29284@moe.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <161227034559.23782.4993224267052898365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Edeltraud (since I at least SUPPOSE that's your first name--sorry I don't know)! Thanks for the info--fantastic! Regards, Russ From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 2 10:42:24 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 10:42:24 +0000 Subject: Physical impediment, and fighting prowess, in Mahabharata In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980102080244.009d9458@mail.rhi.hi.is> Message-ID: <161227034560.23782.4437593529893534131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:02 AM 1/2/98 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Sarma! > Actually I can't read Sanskrit--even if it's romanized. Also I figure >there's a font I'm lacking to be able to read your transcription as I think >it must have been intended. However, I can see from the Drono references >that you've sent me the right stuff--so thanks a lot! I'd best be off to >the library... > Regards, > Russ > > Dear Mr. Russel There is no special font. I used the transliteration scheme that is usally employed on this list. Anyway here is a rough translation. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Seeing Arjuna's persistent efforts towards learning archery, Drona secretly called the cook and said " Never give food to Arjuna in darkness and dont tell him that I have instructed you so." One day when Arjuna was eating, wind blew off the lamp. Arjuna continued eating and found that his hand did not go anywhere else except to his mouth. Understanding this to be due to practice(habit), Arjuna started practicing archery in the nights also. Hearing the twang of his bow string in the night Drona came to him, lifted and embraced him and said "I promise that I will try to make you such an archer that there will be no one equal to you in this world."" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The interesting point is that Drona tried to prevent Arjuna from learning to shoot arrows in the darkness. I guess that this is an effort to maintain his own superiority. But when he found that Arjuna has learnt it anyway by the chance incident, he resigned himself to the second position and tried to make his disciple the best. regards, sarma. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 3 07:17:27 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 02:17:27 -0500 Subject: Sandal mountain breeze Message-ID: <161227034562.23782.12692121797480089314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Jayadeva's gItagovinda, in several places, he uses the words "malaya samirE", "zrIkhaNDazailAnila", "malayAnila", "malayajapavanEna", "candanAnila", etc. In Barbara Stoler Miller's translation, all these occurrences are translated as sandal mountain wind. For instance, "Sandalwood mountain wind As you blow southern breezes To spread the bliss of love, Sooth me! End the paradox! Lifebreath of the world, If you bring me MAdhava For a moment, You may take my life!" (Gitagovinda 7.39) The sandal mountain wind is mentioned in connection with the suffering of the separated lovers. What is interesting to me here is the association of the southern breeze originating in the "malaya" mountain ("potiyil" in Tamil) exacerbating the suffering of the separated lovers. How old is this theme in the Sanskrit literature? Is Jayadeva following any earlier model like Kalidasa, etc? Or is he influenced by Tamil tradition where the southern wind/breeze originating in the potiyil (malaya) mountain with sandal wood is associated with the separation of lovers from cilappatikAram onwards. In the vaishnavite work of nAlAyirattivviyappirapantam, tirumankai AzvAr sings in the words of a love-sick girl longing for kriSNa, "the sweet gentle southern breeze which has mixed with the pollen of rich sandal trees of the potiyil mountain of the southern king (Pandyas) and has come to gladden the hearts of this world is indeed a scorching fire to me." (periya tirumaTal 83-84) While such a theme is native to Tamil literature, how did Jayadeva supposedly composing his songs in eastern India include it in his work? Does bhAgavatapurANa, which is supposed to have transmitted the viraha bhakti tradition of AzvArs to the world of Sanskrit have such a theme? Or did Sanskrit literature have an independent tradition of sandal mountain winds adding to the misery of separated lovers? Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 3 07:17:30 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 02:17:30 -0500 Subject: periya tirumozi and irregular forms - tA, taru, and tar Message-ID: <161227034565.23782.15600702273295275222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Dravidian, the hypothetical roots of tA, and vA are construed to be tar and var respectively by some linguists. I have come across an instance in the edition of nAlAyirattivviyappirapantam I have (periya tirumozi 1. 8) where we find the form "tiritarvEn2" instead of "tiritaruvEn2". I do not know if this is simply a printing error or indeed the correct reading of the poem. Can anybody check their editions and tell me what the correct reading of this poem is? Thanks in advance. kaRRilEn2 kalaika Laimpulan2 karutum karuttuLE tiruttin2En2 man2attai, peRRilE n2atan2Al pEtayEn2 nan2mai perunilat tAruyirk kellAm, ceRRamE vENTit tiritarvEn2 tavirntEn2 celkatik kuyyumA ReNNi, naRRuNai yAkap paRRin2E n2aTiyEn2 nArAya NAven2n2um nAmam If this form tarvEn2 is found to be correct, then this is an important finding. Regards S. Palaniappan From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Jan 3 18:35:46 1998 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Sfauthor) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 13:35:46 -0500 Subject: Tensegrity and sound Message-ID: <161227034567.23782.1089649569763909140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just read a fascinating article in the January, 1998 issue of _Scientific American_ entitled ?The Architecture of Life.? (The entire text of the article can be found online at http://www.sciam.com/0198issue/0198ingber.html) The article contained this passage: ?Remarkably, tensegrity may even explain how all these phenomena are so perfectly coordinated in a living creature. At the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, Donald S. Coffey and Kenneth J. Pienta found that tensegrity structures function as coupled harmonic oscillators. DNA, nuclei, cytoskeletal filaments, membrane ion channels and entire living cells and tissues exhibit characteristic resonant frequencies of vibration. Very simply, transmission of tension through a tensegrity array provides a means to distribute forces to all interconnected elements and, at the same time, to couple, or "tune," the whole system mechanically as one.? Does this strike any chords--so to speak--with members of this list? Any resonances with Indological texts on mantras or other sounds? Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From Hrid at AOL.COM Sun Jan 4 00:12:12 1998 From: Hrid at AOL.COM (Hrid) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 19:12:12 -0500 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034570.23782.8143270192342755007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/3/98 11:23:49 PM, you wrote: <> I would suggest the following: maataa-pitror is here parallel to pati- patnyor, with madhye yad to be understood in the second line. Thus svasya means "one's", i.e. it is not possible to know all the dealings even (api) in the midst of ONE'S father and mother." And of course, happy new year. Howard Resnick UCLA From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Jan 3 23:22:23 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 00:22:23 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034569.23782.1136137846882197447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aplogies for the following elementary question. The Sanskrit list if of course the place for such queries, and I have asked the question there, but received no answer. Maybe my question was swamped by the noise of more interesting debates. -------------------------------------------------------------- In a textbook I found the sentence: ``kah khalu pati-patnyoor madhyee yad vrttam tat sarvam jaanaati? svasya maataa-pitroor api sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' and I don't know what to make of ``svasya''. I wanna translate ``who indeed knows all that which went on between husband and wife? the whole life of one's father and mother even it is impossible to know''... but for that I should have expected ``svayoor maataa-pitroor api''. Can you help? Thanks. And Happy New Year to all. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 4 03:07:27 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 03:07:27 +0000 Subject: Help with a sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034572.23782.14222994528378180395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:22 AM 1/4/98 +0100, you wrote: >Aplogies for the following elementary question. The Sanskrit >list if of course the place for such queries, and I have asked >the question there, but received no answer. Maybe my question >was swamped by the noise of more interesting debates. >-------------------------------------------------------------- >In a textbook I found the sentence: >``kah khalu pati-patnyoor madhyee yad vrttam tat sarvam jaanaati? >svasya maataa-pitroor api sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' >and I don't know what to make of ``svasya''. I wanna translate >``who indeed knows all that which went on between husband and >wife? the whole life of one's father and mother even it is >impossible to know''... but for that I should have expected >``svayoor maataa-pitroor api''. Can you help? Thanks. And Happy >New Year to all. > > What I understand from a Professor of sanskrit is that sva has two meanings (applicable in this context) - one pronoun and another adjective (MMW also says so). sva - oneself (pronoun) sva - one's own (adjective) In the case sva being used as a pronoun "svasya maataa-pitrooh" is correct. If you use sva as adjective you should use "svayooh maataa-pitrooh". Please do not thank me. I got it from Dr.P.Sriramachandrudu, Retired Professor of Sanskrit,Osmania University, Hyderabad. regards, sarma. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sun Jan 4 06:45:06 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 07:45:06 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034574.23782.16567757794338712780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all for your help. Evidently if sva- can also be exactly synonymous to aatman- then that clears all problems. I didn't know that and I didn't know that (I did check whatever grammar, and text- books I own and they do not signal that usage of sva-, at least not explicitly, insofar as I didn't miss anything, obviously). So, if I understand you all well ``sveena maataa-pitroor api sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' would be just as correct (``the whole life of even a father and a mother it is impossible for one to know''), or is the equivalence of sva- and aatman- restricted to when sva- is used in the genitive? Incidentally, the former would mean that ``svasya maataa-pitroor api sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' could also be translated that way, i.e. as if the genitive ``svasya'' was not depending upon ``maataar-pitroor'' but upon ``zakyam'' with ``svasya...jJaatum na zakyam (asti)'' meaning ``(there is) not a possibility for one to know'', couldn't it? Note that if indeed the equivalence of (one of the meanings of) sva- and aatman- is complete then that raises a curious terminological question: are the sva- compounds (sva-ziras) tatpuruSa (sva- used as pronoun synonymous to aatman-) or are they karmadhaaraya (sva- used as an adjective). In other words, is sva-ziras equivalent to ``svam zirah'' or to ``svasya zirah''? :) What do the grammarians say? From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sun Jan 4 10:11:24 1998 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 11:11:24 +0100 Subject: Tantra texts/Woodroffe Message-ID: <161227034576.23782.5337701705718524018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend interested in the Mahanirvanatantra just asked me: (a) whether the translation by Sir John Woodroffe, alias Arthur Avalon, is acceptable by academic standards; and (b) whether any other useful English translations exist. I regret to say that I could not answer either question. Could anyone on the list help? Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jan 4 11:25:33 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 11:25:33 +0000 Subject: Tantra texts/Woodroffe In-Reply-To: <10112417314251@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227034580.23782.13790244798346562913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The credit for solving the long-standing problem of the true identity of the translator of the texts published under the pseudonym "Arthur Avalon" goes to Kathleen Taylor, whose interesting article "Arthur Avalon: the creation of a legendary orientalist" was published in _Myth and Mythmaking: continuous evolution in Indian tradition_, ed. Julia Leslie (London: Curzon, 1996). ISBN 0-7007-0303-9. In this fascinating article, Taylor draws particular attention to the little-known scholar Atal Behari Ghosh who "supervised the textual side of all the works under Avalon's name, including those in the Tantrik Texts series..." (p.157). All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From garzilli at SHORE.NET Sun Jan 4 10:42:38 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 11:42:38 +0100 Subject: Tantra texts/Woodroffe Message-ID: <161227034578.23782.17958942909027648436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: > > A friend interested in the Mahanirvanatantra just asked me: > (a) whether the translation by Sir John Woodroffe, alias Arthur > Avalon, is acceptable by academic standards; and > (b) whether any other useful English translations exist. > I regret to say that I could not answer either question. Could anyone on the > list help? > > Thanks in advance, > > Martin Gansten > mgansten at sbbs.se a) Like any other of his translation b) See on the MNT my recently published paper "First Greek and Latin Document on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems", part 2, *Indo-Iranian Journal*, No. 4, 1997. I also face the problem of the recent fabrication of the text, of its "discovery", and of its translations. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sun Jan 4 19:31:48 1998 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Sfauthor) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 14:31:48 -0500 Subject: Tensegrity and sound/2nd try Message-ID: <161227034584.23782.17137763946959137536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My first posting of this message came back to me with all the CRs stripped out. :-( Here's a second try.//////////// I just read a fascinating article in the January, 1998 issue of _Scientific American_ entitled ?The Architecture of Life.? (The entire text of the article can be found online at http://www.sciam.com/0198issue/0198ingber.html) The article contained this passage: ?Remarkably, tensegrity may even explain how all these phenomena are so perfectly coordinated in a living creature. At the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, Donald S. Coffey and Kenneth J. Pienta found that tensegrity structures function as coupled harmonic oscillators. DNA, nuclei, cytoskeletal filaments, membrane ion channels and entire living cells and tissues exhibit characteristic resonant frequencies of vibration. Very simply, transmission of tension through a tensegrity array provides a means to distribute forces to all interconnected elements and, at the same time, to couple, or "tune," the whole system mechanically as one.? Does this strike any chords--so to speak--with members of this list? Any resonances with Indological texts on mantras or other sounds? Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From roheko at MSN.COM Sun Jan 4 13:45:29 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 14:45:29 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034582.23782.9724060346426985234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sva is a so called reflexiv pronomina and in your zited sentence related to kah and therefore is the gen. correct svayoor is without sense -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Jacob Baltuch An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Sonntag, 4. Januar 1998 07:45 Betreff: Re: Help with a sentence? >Thanks to all for your help. Evidently if sva- can also be exactly >synonymous to aatman- then that clears all problems. I didn't know >that and I didn't know that (I did check whatever grammar, and text- >books I own and they do not signal that usage of sva-, at least >not explicitly, insofar as I didn't miss anything, obviously). > >So, if I understand you all well > >``sveena maataa-pitroor api sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' > >would be just as correct (``the whole life of even a father and >a mother it is impossible for one to know''), or is the equivalence >of sva- and aatman- restricted to when sva- is used in the genitive? > >Incidentally, the former would mean that ``svasya maataa-pitroor api >sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' could also be translated that >way, i.e. as if the genitive ``svasya'' was not depending upon >``maataar-pitroor'' but upon ``zakyam'' with ``svasya...jJaatum >na zakyam (asti)'' meaning ``(there is) not a possibility for one >to know'', couldn't it? > >Note that if indeed the equivalence of (one of the meanings of) sva- >and aatman- is complete then that raises a curious terminological >question: are the sva- compounds (sva-ziras) tatpuruSa (sva- used as >pronoun synonymous to aatman-) or are they karmadhaaraya (sva- used >as an adjective). In other words, is sva-ziras equivalent to >``svam zirah'' or to ``svasya zirah''? :) What do the grammarians say? > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 4 20:57:33 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 15:57:33 -0500 Subject: kuyava in RV Message-ID: <161227034586.23782.2319599957362794836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am inrigued by the following RV lines (Source: the Vedavid Web site), in which an enemy of Vedic Aryans is called "kuyava". \EN{110317081} shuSNaM pipruM kuyavaM vRtramindra yadAvadhIrvi puraHshambarasya |\\ \EN{110418032} kSIreNa snAtaH kuyavasya yoSe hate te syAtAM pravaNe shiphAyAH | \EN{219240601} sa randhayat sadivaH sArathaye shuSNamashuSaM kuyavaM kutsAya |\\ \EN{4016121} kutsAya shuSNam ashuSaM ni barhIH prapitve ahnaH kuyavaM sahasrA | \EN{631030301} tvaM kutsenAbhi shuSNamindrAshuSaM yudhya kuyavaM gaviSTau |\\ \EN{701929022} dAsaM yacchuSNaM kuyavaM nyasmA arandhaya ArjuneyAya shikSan ||\\ With respect to RV 1.103.8 Griffith says that kuyava "probably, "causing bad harvests," is the name of another of the demons of drought." In connection with RV 1.104.3, Griffith says that kuyava is "perhaps a name given by the Aryans to one of the non-Aryan chieftains". Does anybody know of any discussions related to "kuyava" in RV? This is interesting because "kuyavan" in Tamil means "potter". Also another Tamil word "iruGkOvEL" has been used to refer to potter as well as chieftain in Tamil texts. Regards S. Palaniappan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Jan 5 01:16:59 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 19:16:59 -0600 Subject: periya tirumozi and irregular forms Message-ID: <161227034587.23782.360167382489089896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have to check in print, But tEvAra mutalis use tarvar atleast 6 or 7 times as uzi tarvar, tiri tarvar. Also, this must be from yaappu/metrics?! So, your prabandham print may be OK. Regards, ng ************** paigkaNatu oru peru mazalai veL ERRin2ar; pali en2A# egkaNum uzitarvar; imaiyavar tozutu ezum iyalpin2ar;# agkaNar; amararkaL aTiiNai tozutu eza, AramA# veg kaNa aravin2ar; uRaitaru pati--vizimizalaiyE.# tERRappaTat tiru nallUr akattE civan2 iruntAl# tORRappaTac cen2Ru kaNTukoLLAR, toNTar, tun2matiyAl;# ARRil keTuttuk kuLattin2il-tETiya Ataraip pOl# kARRin2 kaTuttu ulaku ellAm tiritarvar, kANpataRkE.# ----- End Included Message ----- From Vaidix at AOL.COM Mon Jan 5 06:22:17 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 01:22:17 -0500 Subject: Tensegrity and sound/2nd try Message-ID: <161227034591.23782.12790999344629691193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Brian, In a message dated 98-01-04 14:36:25 EST, you write: >I just read a fascinating article in the January, 1998 issue of _Scientific >American_ entitled ?The Architecture of Life.? (The entire text of the article >can be found online at http://www.sciam.com/0198issue/0198ingber.html) Thanks for the information. >The article contained this passage: >?Remarkably, tensegrity may even explain how all these phenomena are so >perfectly coordinated in a living creature. At the Johns Hopkins School of >Medicine, Donald S. Coffey and Kenneth J. Pienta found that tensegrity >structures function as coupled harmonic oscillators. DNA, nuclei, cytoskeletal >filaments, membrane ion channels and entire living cells and tissues exhibit >characteristic resonant frequencies of vibration. Very simply, transmission of >tension through a tensegrity array provides a means to distribute forces to >all interconnected elements and, at the same time, to couple, or "tune," the >whole system mechanically as one.? >Does this strike any chords--so to speak--with members of this list? Any >resonances with Indological texts on mantras or other sounds? The principle of "tensegrity" that the scientist (Donald E. Ingber) was discussing that stabilizes an organism in terms of tensional and compressional forces is long known to Vedic seers. At cosmic level it is called agni, and at personal level it is called vAc (speech). agni and speech are equivalent for all practical purposes. Speech is not limited to the spoken word. Any tension found in the regions of mouth , neck, jaws etc is termed as speech. Again, agni is not limited to fire; any thermodynamic or other form or energy qualifies to be agni. Here is a cryptic on speech: Speech is the first born of existence. While existence has no reason to know or measure its own glory, the subject of statistics is also included in existence, and as a result, any statistical probability on the part of existence to realize its own glory makes that part of itself which realizes this glory devoid of that glory. That is ego (of the individual observer), and whatever that ego speaks of is speech. This speech is multifarious because the glory of existence is many-sided. But now one aspect of speech apears as ignorance to another aspect of speech, thus leading to conflict. Various Vedic deities such as indra, viSNu, bRhaspati, rudrA, etc are different forms of speech, and their need based interactions at diffrent stages of the thought cycle have been recorded in the Vedas and brAhmaNAs. A majority of these deities (with the exception of a few) are born, and spend their lives interacting, competing and compromising with each other (among other things but not limited to .. for somA, the secrections of brain like tissue recently discovered in the gut) in a way somewhat similar to "Evolutionary Programming" of modern mathematics/artificial intelligence theories. For more information on EP/ai follow links .. http://krypton.ugr.es/~encore/www/ (Hitch-Hiker's Guide to Evolutionary Computation) or http://www.phoaks.com/phoaks2/newsgroups/comp/ai/alife/index.html (People Helping One Another Know Stuff and look for ai). Even the sense organs and other parts of the body are born of this need based birth/interaction of Vedic deities. Explanations abound in Veda regarding the scriptural reasons why living beings have two eyes, or why eyes are in the front, or why ears are on the sides etc. Even the shape of oral cavity, or location of jaws and so on have philosophical origination, and the vedic seers have convinced themselves about it. I do not have any evidence, but my wild guess here is that the (sanskrit) alphabet is born some time around when indra slew viSvarUpA son of tvaStR (son of bRhaspati). (I am sure my guess in no more irresponsible than interpreting indra as cloud or electricity). Such stories found in Veda are not some epic stories that happened many thousands of years ago, or imaginations of poets. They are eternal stories that happen every moment in the thought process. The article in Scientific American sounds like science fiction to a casual reader, but we must realize that each statement in that article is backed by experiments and equations. In the same way the Vedic seers have their own ways of proving these relationships using various subjects like grammar, meters of Vedic stanzas, various processes of yajJa etc. For more information about this approach or for updates please visit http://members.aol.com/vaidix. The site is meant for exploring Veda as neuro- fuzzy rulesets that govern the thought process. This site is moving to http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/bailey/64. Please point your URLs to the new site. Regards B. Mallampalli From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Mon Jan 5 03:22:21 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 04:22:21 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034589.23782.8832811074069294809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rolf Heiner Koch wrote: >sva is a so called reflexiv pronomina and in your >zited sentence >related to kah and therefore is the gen. correct >svayoor is without sense What do you mean "without sense"? Aren't you being a bit hasty? The word sva- can also (maybe primarily) be used as an adjective. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Jan 5 11:32:03 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 06:32:03 -0500 Subject: Switchover from palm leaves to paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034594.23782.9158500687280231839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ruth has brought up an important question. I am not sure if writing on palm leaves was completely abandoned. When I was a highschool student in Pune, our drawing teacher, who had beautiful Devanagari handwriting, was contracted by a Jain establishment to make copies of old manuscripts on palm leaves, and I have seen him writing on palm leaves. Of course, the use of palm leaves as the primary material was discontinued a long time ago. All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > Can anyone provide information about when manuscript copyists left off > writing on palm leaves and began to write on paper? I am assuming (in all > ignorance) that this occurred prior to the widespread adoption of the > printing press, in preference to copying, but all corrections and > references will be gratefully accepted. > > I am especially interested in when this transition took place in Nepal. > > Thank you! > > Best wishes, > > Ruth Schmidt > > > *********************************************** > Ruth Laila Schmidt > Dept of East European and Oriental Studies > University of Oslo > P.O. Box 1030 Blindern > N-0315 Oslo, Norway > Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 > Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 > Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no > From jcvdfans at GEOCITIES.COM Mon Jan 5 14:57:55 1998 From: jcvdfans at GEOCITIES.COM (Fernando) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 06:57:55 -0800 Subject: Tantra texts/Woodroffe Message-ID: <161227034598.23782.8732498526138037846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arthur Avalon?s 3rd edition published in Madras by Ganesh & Co. seems to be acceptable. At least I found it acceptable myself though I don`t enjoy his commentaries very much. But the translation text is fine. I don?t know other translation, but it may exist. Cordially, Fernando At 11:11 04.01.1998 +0100, you wrote: >A friend interested in the Mahanirvanatantra just asked me: > (a) whether the translation by Sir John Woodroffe, alias Arthur >Avalon, is acceptable by academic standards; and > (b) whether any other useful English translations exist. >I regret to say that I could not answer either question. Could anyone on the >list help? > >Thanks in advance, > >Martin Gansten >mgansten at sbbs.se > __.----. __.----. __.----. __.----.___ (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' ;--` `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' | ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( | (o o) (o o) (o o) (o o) / `--'\_ (__).`--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ _(__)| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `||~|| /\|| ^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^ __.----. __.----. __.----. __.----.___ (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' ;--` `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' | ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( | (o o) (o o) (o o) (o o) / `--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ (__).`--'\_ (__).`--'\_ _(__)| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `||~|| /\|| ^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^ .,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., (o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o) : : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 5 11:32:47 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 11:32:47 +0000 Subject: Switchover from palm leaves to paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034596.23782.6470947563003734562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Can anyone provide information about when manuscript copyists left off > writing on palm leaves and began to write on paper? [...] > I am especially interested in when this transition took place in Nepal. Dear Ruth, There is a fine discussion of this in J. P. Losty's book, _The Art of the Book in India_ (London: British Library, 1982), ISBN 0-904654-78-8, pp.5-12 et passim. Jerry makes the important observation (p.11) that the Gilgit MS find "sugessts that papermaking was practised at least in the Himalayan regions of the Indian subcontinent by the 6th century AD.... Papermaking in another part of the Himalayan region, the valley of Nepal, was undertaken since at least the 12th century...". For more on Nepalese traditions, see M S Slusser's book _Nepala Mandala_ (Princeton: PUP, 1982), although a quick glance suggests that although Slusser makes several interesting and important remarks about bookmaking and writing in Nepal, she doesn't deal explicitly with the date and significance replacement of palm leaf by paper. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Jan 5 16:42:09 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 11:42:09 -0500 Subject: MacAuley's criticism of PurANic oceans Message-ID: <161227034599.23782.9825251299550561399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings. I have heard that MacAuley makes some critical remarks about the various oceans of ghee, liquor, etc. described in the PurANas. Do you know in what publication he makes such statements? Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Mon Jan 5 09:54:49 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 11:54:49 +0200 Subject: Switchover from palm leaves to paper Message-ID: <161227034592.23782.14216296492114293911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Can anyone provide information about when manuscript copyists left off writing on palm leaves and began to write on paper? I am assuming (in all ignorance) that this occurred prior to the widespread adoption of the printing press, in preference to copying, but all corrections and references will be gratefully accepted. I am especially interested in when this transition took place in Nepal. Thank you! Best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 5 17:23:30 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 12:23:30 -0500 Subject: jogayara in Samavayanga-suttam? Message-ID: <161227034601.23782.57131627439660884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Ardha-Magadhi dictionary the only source cited for the item yogaayaara (= yogaacaara) is Sama 1, which according to my understanding of the abbreviations means Samavaayaanga-suttam. In the edition I have (Jaina Agama Series 3), however, that term is not listed in the extensive index. Am I making some mistake somewhere, or what *is* the story here? This is apparently (if it exists) the only occurence of the term in (at least canonical?) Ardha-Magadhi, so I am eager to track it down. Any help much appreciated! Jonathan Silk Department of Comparative Religion Western Michigan University Kalamazoo MI 49008-5013 USA tel. 616-387-4399 fax 616-387-4914 silk at wmich.edu From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 5 17:36:00 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 12:36:00 -0500 Subject: jogayara in Samavayanga- correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034603.23782.1588767284923336204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my previous message, for yogaayaara of course read jogaayaara. jonathan From pmg6s at SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Tue Jan 6 01:56:57 1998 From: pmg6s at SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 17:56:57 -0800 Subject: Indra's Net Message-ID: <161227034605.23782.3881576950423330910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone please give me the reference for the story of Indra's net -- at each juncture a jewel reflecting all the other jewels, etc. Thanks! ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 5 23:49:52 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 18:49:52 -0500 Subject: Switchover from palm leaves to paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034606.23782.18058546081887279777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The answer should be different per area. In Kashmir, where one used birchbark, paper was introduced from Buchara/Samarkand by king Zain ul Abidin (1420-1470) but the last birchbark MSS I know is dated 1675 AD (von Huegel MS in Vienna State Libr.). All written with ink, of course. The earliest paper MSS are from the 17th c., I think (I am writing at home from memory). See collections of Kashmiri paper MSS (Marc Aurel Stein's collections) in Paris, London, Vienna, Tuebingen, Berlin; further: Goettingen, New Delhi and of course Srinagar (unpublished catalogue of c. 8000 titles). Information on birchbark and other MSS in Buehler's Report JRASBombay 1877 and last, W. Slaje, Book on Sarada script, and MSS, and Y.Ikari (ed.), A study of the Nilamata, Kyoto 1994(?) on Kashmiri mss. Though paper manufacture may be early in Nepal: from bushes, bast, see book by a Danish person whose name I forget(*) palm leaf MSS were written down to c. 1500 AD. The c. 2400 palm leaf MSS filmed by the NGMPP stop about that time. All written with ink (except for a very few South Indian MSS in the National Archives, inscised with stylus).--- The earliest local paper MS I know of is dated 1381 AD. This is a thyasaphu (Newari) "folded book", leporello, which was much in use in Nepal (also in S.E. Asia). I think Albiruni mentions a folded blue book, used for keeping of official records, in the Panjab of his time. Palm leaf documents (small strips of leaf, rolled up and sealed with the king's seal) for recording land sales and mortgages were used well into the 18th c. I think. Examples in Bernhard Koelver and Hemraj Sakya, Documents from the Rudravarna- Mahavihara, Patan. Sankt Augustin : VGH Wissenschaftsverlag,c. 1990 (*) It is: Trier, Jesper. Ancient paper of Nepal. Results of ethno-technological field work on its manufacture, uses and history - with technical analyses of bast, paper and manuscripts. Copenhagen, Gyldendal, 1972. ( 271 p. illus. 31 cm). Jutland Archaeological Society Publications, v. 10 The Jains in Gujarat have palm leaf MS around 1100 AD, but also some of the earliest paper MSS in India proper, if my memory does not fail me. In Orissa, palm leaf MSS were prepared well into this century; and fakes are of course very recent: A nice fake one is the palm leaf written with ink in NAGARI script in Orissa(!), photo in the Vastu Upanisad, ed. Alice Boner/ Sadashiva Rath Sharma. Some peope still know how to write with stylus on palm leaves. In the big India exhibition in Boston c.1990, an Oriya man did so, to show how things are done. In Central Asia use of paper for Skt. MSS is of course much earlier, see examples in Lore Sanders, Palaeographisches zu den Turfan MSS. Hope this helps. MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 6 02:32:47 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 21:32:47 -0500 Subject: Switchover from palm leaves to paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034610.23782.7281408773628902750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Michael Witzel wrote: > In Orissa, palm leaf MSS were prepared well into this century; and fakes > are of course very recent: A nice fake one is the palm leaf written with > ink in NAGARI script in Orissa(!), photo in the Vastu Upanisad, ed. Alice > Boner/ Sadashiva Rath Sharma. Some peope still know how to write with > stylus on palm leaves. In the big India exhibition in Boston c.1990, an > Oriya man did so, to show how things are done. > Palm leaf art and writing is an active pastime in Orissa. I visited a school in Bhubaneswar. They use stylus. I am not sure if they are duplicating older manuscripts. I don't know if there is an intent to "fake". Quite a bit of Geetagovindam material is reproduced in modern palm leaves though. - Bijoy Misra. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 6 04:26:33 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 04:26:33 +0000 Subject: Sandal mountain breeze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034612.23782.9814534151868854320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:17 AM 1/3/98 EST, you wrote: >In Jayadeva's gItagovinda, in several places, he uses the words "malaya >samirE", "zrIkhaNDazailAnila", "malayAnila", "malayajapavanEna", >"candanAnila", etc. In Barbara Stoler Miller's translation, all these >occurrences are translated as sandal mountain wind. For instance, > >"Sandalwood mountain wind >As you blow southern breezes >To spread the bliss of love, >Sooth me! End the paradox! >Lifebreath of the world, >If you bring me MAdhava >For a moment, >You may take my life!" (Gitagovinda 7.39) > >The sandal mountain wind is mentioned in connection with the suffering of the >separated lovers. What is interesting to me here is the association of the >southern breeze originating in the "malaya" mountain ("potiyil" in Tamil) >exacerbating the suffering of the separated lovers. > >How old is this theme in the Sanskrit literature? Is Jayadeva following any >earlier model like Kalidasa, etc? Or is he influenced by Tamil tradition where >the southern wind/breeze originating in the potiyil (malaya) mountain with >sandal wood is associated with the separation of lovers from cilappatikAram >onwards. In the vaishnavite work of nAlAyirattivviyappirapantam, tirumankai >AzvAr sings in the words of a love-sick girl longing for kriSNa, "the sweet >gentle southern breeze which has mixed with the pollen of rich sandal trees of >the potiyil mountain of the southern king (Pandyas) and has come to gladden >the hearts of this world is indeed a scorching fire to me." (periya tirumaTal >83-84) > >While such a theme is native to Tamil literature, how did Jayadeva supposedly >composing his songs in eastern India include it in his work? Does >bhAgavatapurANa, which is supposed to have transmitted the viraha bhakti >tradition of AzvArs to the world of Sanskrit have such a theme? Or did >Sanskrit literature have an independent tradition of sandal mountain winds >adding to the misery of separated lovers? > > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > There are plenty of references to Malaya mountain in MBh malayO durdurazcaiva mahEndrO gandhamAdanah indrakIlah sunAbhazca tathA divyau ca parvtau. (2.10.32) surabhIJzcandanarasAn hEmakumbhasamAsthitan malayAd durdurAccaiva candanAgarusaJcayAn. (2.52.34) (Can be interpolation because pAnDya and cOlA kings are mentioned as bringing these). niryAya tasmAduddEzAt pazyAmO lavaNAmbhasah samIpE sahyamalayau durduraJca mahAgirim. tatO malayamAruhya pasyantO varuNAlayam viSaNNA vythitah khinnA nirAzA jIvite bhruzam. (3.282.43-44) mahEndrO malayah sahyah zuktimanRukSavAnapi vindhyazca pAriyAtrazca saptaitE kulaparvatAh. (6.9.11) puSkarESvatha gOkarNE naimiSE malayE tathA apAkarSat svakam dEham niyamairmAnasapriyaih. (7.54.26) aNI kRtvailapatram ca puSpadantam ca tryambakah yUpam kRtva tu malayamavanAham ca takSakam. (7.202.73) rAmAyaNa also has references tatra drakSyatha kAvErIm vihRtAmapsarOgaNaih tasyAsInam nagasyAgrE malayasya mahaujasam drakSyathAdityasaGkAzamagastyamRSisattamam tatastEnAbhyanujJAtAh prasannEna mahAtmanA. (kiSkindhAkANDa.41 sarga. 15-16) There may be many others. All references are from Gita Press, Gorakhpur editions. regards, sarma. From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 6 15:29:53 1998 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 07:29:53 -0800 Subject: sva In-Reply-To: <199801052359.PAA05189@Hypatia.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <161227034635.23782.16162772869382264811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If sva as a "reflexive pronoun" works just like aatman, then singular sva should allow plural and dual antecedents, e.g. svam parirakSanti, like aatmaanam parirakSanti. It should also occur in the nominative, e.g. svaH parirakSitum zakyate, like aatmaa parirakSitum zakyate. Are these usages of sva attested? Paul Kiparsky From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Jan 6 13:24:48 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 08:24:48 -0500 Subject: Help with a sentence? In-Reply-To: <021312428110618UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <161227034630.23782.3677002234121378368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An example of sva as an adjective: sve sve karmaNy abhirataH samsiddhiM labhate naraH (Bhagavad Gita). The adjectival use of sva is as old as Vedic: uta svayaa tanvaa saMvade kadaa nv antar varuNe bhuvaani (RV). In Zakuntala, we find adjectival use of sva: saa nindantii svaani bhaagyaani baalaa ... Thus there is nothing non-sensical about svayor maataapitroH. Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Rolf Heiner Koch wrote: > I mean svayoour maataa-pitroor would be without > sense. Can you give me an example with sva- as an > adjective? > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Jacob Baltuch > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Datum: Dienstag, 6. Januar 1998 05:41 > Betreff: Re: Help with a sentence? > > > >Rolf Heiner Koch wrote: > > > >>sva is a so called reflexiv pronomina and in > your > >>zited sentence > >>related to kah and therefore is the gen. correct > >>svayoor is without sense > > > >What do you mean "without sense"? Aren't you > being > >a bit hasty? The word sva- can also (maybe > primarily) > >be used as an adjective. > > > From r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Tue Jan 6 07:45:09 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 09:45:09 +0200 Subject: Switchover from palm leaves to paper Message-ID: <161227034616.23782.10538683787721149280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I wish to thank all the list members who provided useful information and references on this subject! You have spared me days of floundering about in the library. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt >Can anyone provide information about when manuscript copyists left off >writing on palm leaves and began to write on paper? I am assuming (in all >ignorance) that this occurred prior to the widespread adoption of the >printing press, in preference to copying, but all corrections and >references will be gratefully accepted. *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Tue Jan 6 09:03:05 1998 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 10:03:05 +0100 Subject: Kashmiri Text of Gita In-Reply-To: <34B1D7B0.4D2287C3@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <161227034620.23782.8397123933723352447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Ramkumar wrote: > I have heard that there is a Kashmiri text of the Gita that has 744 > verses instead of the usual 700 or 701. Is there anyone in this group > who can give me the details about the extra verses from this version > that are not found in the standard text. F. Otto Schrader defended the authenticity in his work: The Kashmir Recension of the Bhagavadgita, Stuttgart 1930. S.K. Belvalkar argued against it in his introduction to the critical of the Bhii.smaparvan of the Mahaabhaarata. \bye Peter -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH Tue Jan 6 07:05:20 1998 From: ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH (Ramkumar) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 10:05:20 +0300 Subject: Kashmiri Text of Gita Message-ID: <161227034615.23782.4171483606309934780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, I have heard that there is a Kashmiri text of the Gita that has 744 verses instead of the usual 700 or 701. Is there anyone in this group who can give me the details about the extra verses from this version that are not found in the standard text. Thanks in advance, Sowmya Ramkumar _____________________________________________________________________________ Sowmya The Bhagavad Gita homepage http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ email: soms at geocities.com or ramkumar at batelco.com.bh From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Jan 6 00:13:35 1998 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 11:13:35 +1100 Subject: jogayara in Samavayanga-suttam? Message-ID: <161227034608.23782.11278786648121604283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In the Ardha-Magadhi dictionary the only source cited for the item >yogaayaara (= yogaacaara) is Sama 1, which according to my understanding of >the abbreviations means Samavaayaanga-suttam. In the edition I have (Jaina >Agama Series 3), however, that term is not listed in the extensive index. >Am I making some mistake somewhere, or what *is* the story here? This is >apparently (if it exists) the only occurence of the term in (at least >canonical?) Ardha-Magadhi, so I am eager to track it down. Any help much >appreciated! Hi Jonathan I don't have the Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi dictionary (1924, 1977) here with me (which I presume is the dictionary you are citing) but I remember that for some texts it did use the old Dhanapatisimha editions (referring to them as editions by "Babu" in the list of abbreviations). If the source of the word is the 1880 [samvat 1937?] edition of Samavayanga it would be very unreliable, the Prakrit text in those editions is notoriously bad. However if the source for the citation is the 1918 (Agamodaya Samiti) edition [by Anandasagara] that's another matter. There is a very useful but rare dictionary of the Agamodaya Samiti editions of the texts AND commentaries published as: Alpaparicitasaiddhantikasabdakosah. Surat : Sresthi-Devacandalalabhai-Jainapustakoddharakosa, 1954-79. 5 v. Unfortunately I only have access here to v.1, v.3-5 and of course v.2 contains just the entries needed now - ka to jho - so I can't check for you. Have you thought of checking Vijayarajendra's Abhidhanarajendrah 1910-25 (7 v.)? The Library at ANU has managed to misplace v.s 3 and 4, and v. 3 is just the one needed. The Jain Visva Bharati (Ladnun) edition of the Jain 'canon' (1974-89) is also well indexed. The first volume of the index -- published separately as 'Agama sabdakosa' in 1980 --- covers all the Anga texts but lists nothing like jogaayaara. Although I hesitate to suggest it in case its a wild-goose chase, I have occasionally been helped by two other sources (admittedly mostly Digambara): Jainendra siddhanta-kosa / Jinendra Varni. 1970-73. 4 v. Jaina-laksanavali : Jaina paribhasika sabda-kosa / Balacandra Siddhantasastri. 1972-79. 3 v. Best of luck. Royce From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Jan 6 10:57:43 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 11:57:43 +0100 Subject: Kashmiri Text of Gita Message-ID: <161227034622.23782.11882937933329608138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ramkumar wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I have heard that there is a Kashmiri text of the Gita that has 744 > verses instead of the usual 700 or 701. Is there anyone in this group > who can give me the details about the extra verses from this version > that are not found in the standard text. > > Thanks in advance, > > Sowmya Ramkumar _____________________________________________________________________________ (a.s.: diacr. omitted) Abhinavagupta commented on, or better summarized the subject-matters of the Kashmiri Bhagavadgita in his *Bhagavadgitarthasamgraha* (Srinagar 1933 or, included with other commentaries Bombay 1912). He of course gave the saiva interpretation which he learnt from one of his teachers Bhattenduraja. He comments on a text which is different from the usual in several verses, and he also commented on several verses which one cannot find in the other redactions of the Gita, such as III, 40-45. (In the Rajatarangini 5, 125 the historian Kalhana writes that Avantivarman, a king of Kashmir who died in the 9th century A. D. (I think), read the (Kashmiri) Bhagavadgita from the beginning to the end during his death.) Also the *Vasavi Tika* is a commentary on a longer Gita. It has been ascribed to another great saiva Kashmiri author, Vasugupta (9th cent.). Even though the complete ms. of the VT has not been discovered, a Kashmiri scholar friend of mine told me last year in Delhi that the text on which Vasugupta commented on is the Kashmiri Gita which is longer. (BTW, he claims to have found the complete ms). Enrica -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** From roheko at MSN.COM Tue Jan 6 11:23:54 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 12:23:54 +0100 Subject: jogayara in Samavayanga- correction Message-ID: <161227034624.23782.11013605126256592763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did you have a look to William's Jainayoga? -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: jonathan silk An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Dienstag, 6. Januar 1998 06:25 Betreff: jogayara in Samavayanga- correction >In my previous message, for yogaayaara of course read jogaayaara. > >jonathan > From roheko at MSN.COM Tue Jan 6 11:28:29 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 12:28:29 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034626.23782.10261514653080050201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I mean svayoour maataa-pitroor would be without sense. Can you give me an example with sva- as an adjective? -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Jacob Baltuch An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Dienstag, 6. Januar 1998 05:41 Betreff: Re: Help with a sentence? >Rolf Heiner Koch wrote: > >>sva is a so called reflexiv pronomina and in your >>zited sentence >>related to kah and therefore is the gen. correct >>svayoor is without sense > >What do you mean "without sense"? Aren't you being >a bit hasty? The word sva- can also (maybe primarily) >be used as an adjective. > From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Tue Jan 6 12:07:39 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 13:07:39 +0100 Subject: Two queries: MacAuley & Bruce Tapper In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980106140845.3a6f224a@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034628.23782.2929665119743680786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! Prof. Bh. Krishnamurti sagte: > Education in India dated 2nd February 1835. You will find the Minute in the > collected works of Macaulay. It is true he made very derogatory remarks > about the contents of classical (Sanskrit) literature in India. We ignore Could someone please quote the exact title (and/or Volume) of his collected works with the minute (from 1835)! When I search through S?dwestdeutscher Bibliotheksverbund - Catalogue, I get too many hits: Essays (Wien, 1924), Speeches (2 vols, Leipzig, 1853), Critical and miscellaneous essays (2 vols, 1843, Philadelphia), Critical and historical essays (5 vols, 1853), Life and Letters, etc. My 2nd query has nothing to do with the above discussion .... I am in search of an essay: Bruce Tapper, Andhra Shadow play jesters: Meaning, iconography, and history. Paper presented at the conference on Asian Puppet Theatre, London, 1979. Are these conference proceedings published as a book? Thanks and Regards, Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 6 09:15:27 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 14:15:27 +0500 Subject: MacAuley's criticism of PurANic oceans Message-ID: <161227034618.23782.11142391357830313926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:42 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings. > >I have heard that MacAuley makes some critical remarks about the various >oceans of ghee, liquor, etc. described in the PurANas. Do you know in what >publication he makes such statements? > >Thank you for your help. > >Chris Beetle > The reference occurs in Thomas Babington Macaulay's famous Minute on English Education in India dated 2nd February 1835. You will find the Minute in the collected works of Macaulay. It is true he made very derogatory remarks about the contents of classical (Sanskrit) literature in India. We ignore this arrogance born out of his ignorance. But the Minute is a brilliaant document and is very prophetic. Regards. Bh. Krishnamurti Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: Note:Please note what follows hd is digit 1 and not letter l. In vsnl the final character is letter l and not digit 1. From agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 6 19:31:29 1998 From: agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 14:31:29 -0500 Subject: kuyava in RV In-Reply-To: <01IS29B0LPN890MV8W@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227034648.23782.1195859304211410067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A small addition to what Jan just said on kuyava: the Vaajasaneyi SaMhitaa yajuS to which he refers occurs in the MS (2,11,4), KS (18,9), KapKS (28,9) and TS (4,7,4,2) and the KANva recension (VSK 19,4,4) as well, and with a variantin the TS the relevance of which I cannot judge: kUyavAs Note also that a list of grains and other foodcrops (in fact one of the longest ones I know of) follows in the same yajuS, and that the different versions play around both with the order of the grains, and with that of of the items akSiti and ku/Uyava/As. As to the fact that we would like to read akuyava: 'me' precedes the word so abhinihita sandhi seems possible, also in biew of the proximity of 'kSiti (WITH abhinihita sandhi). Mittwede ("Textkritische Bemerkungen zur MaitrAyaNI SaMhitA") does not discuss this option, however. Arlo Griffiths On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Am I right that so far no-one has reacted to: > > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:57:33 EST > From: Palaniappa > Subject: kuyava in RV > > I am intrigued by the following RV lines (Source: the Vedavid Web site), in > which an enemy of Vedic Aryans is called "kuyava". . . . (ref. to RV 1.103.8, > 1.104.3 etc.) . . . Does anybody know of any > discussions related to "kuyava" in RV? This is interesting because "kuyavan" in > Tamil means "potter". > > Some basic discussions can be found in Grassmann's Dict. and in Geldner's > transl. Ku'yava occurs in VaajSamhitaa 18.10 where it must mean something > related to food, acc. to Grassmann "bad harvest" [one would like to read a-ku- > yavam in the series of desirable things enumerated at this place]. In the RV > Grassm considers the word to be either an epitheton or a name of a demon > bringing bad harvest. Geldner on 1.103.8 suggests the word is an abbreviation > of ku'ya-vaac (which occurs RV 1.174.4), hence meaning "speaking > unintelligbly". So far no reason to assume the meaning "potter" for this word > in the RV (and VS), which does not resist an "intra-Vedic" etymology. Nor do I > see a contextual justification for the assumption that the meaning "potter" > played a (secondary) role in the language of the Vedic authors. > > Best wishes, JH > From russel at RHI.HI.IS Tue Jan 6 14:48:10 1998 From: russel at RHI.HI.IS (Russel Steven Moxham) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 14:48:10 +0000 Subject: Mahabharata duels, etc. Message-ID: <161227034637.23782.13838573932101032827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm back. (I doubt you missed me.) I've discovered just how hopeless the search is on Iceland for anything from Mahabharata, and the cost of importing books is prohibitive. So, for an essay I'm writing that touches on this stuff, would someone please just tell me where (including year of publication if possible) in the text: 1) Arjuna is defeated--and revived, stronger than ever--by Siva? 2) Indra defeats Vrtra? 3) First mention (if any) is made of Indra's consequently acquired power of Vrtrahan? Thanks, Regards, Russ From thillaud at UNICE.FR Tue Jan 6 14:35:38 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 15:35:38 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? In-Reply-To: <021312428110618UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <161227034640.23782.1623067384460998065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I mean svayoour maataa-pitroor would be without >sense. Can you give me an example with sva- as an >adjective? the FIRST litterary example of sva given in MMW lexicon (p.1275,c.1) is: taM svAd AsyAd asRjat (Mn i,94) easy to find, isn't it ? Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Tue Jan 6 22:02:10 1998 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Hardy) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 16:02:10 -0600 Subject: CANADIAN ACADEMIC TENURE TRACK POSITION Message-ID: <161227034650.23782.5216143907956823447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <---- Begin Included Message ----> From: umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca Subject: CANADIAN ACADEMIC TENURE TRACK POSITION To: south-asia at cunews.carleton.ca ************************************************************************ January 6, 1998 DEPARTMENT OF RELIGION THE UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA TENURE TRACK POSITION The Department of Religion at The University of Manitoba, an energetic and enthusiastic unit committed to excellence in teaching and research, offers undergraduate Major and Honours, M.A. and Ph.D. programs. The Department is pleased to invite applications for a full-time tenure track appointment, which is subject to final budgetary approval, at the Assistant Professor rank in World Religions/Asian Religions. The appointment will begin on July 1, 1998 or soon thereafter. The successful candidate must have a Ph.D. by the commencement of the appointment with a specialization in Asian Religions (Buddhism and/or Hinduism in particular) and have demonstrated competence in teaching World Religions/Asian Religions and in research in this field. The candidate will have the opportunity to teach an introductory course in World Religions, as well as specialized courses in Asian Religions, Hermeneutics, and Women and Religion, at a normal teaching load of 15 credit hours per year. The 1997-98 salary range for the position is $40,868- $48,000. Salary will be commensurate with experience and qualifications. The University of Manitoba encourages applications from qualified women and men, including members of visible minorities, aboriginal peoples, and persons with disabilities. Women are particularly encouraged to apply. In accordance with Canadian Immigration requirements, this advertisement is directed to Canadian citizens and permanent residents. Application, curriculum vita, and three letters of reference should be sent to Dr. Dawne McCance, Head, Department of Religion, 327 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, MB, Canada R3T 5V5. Closing date for applications is February 23, 1998. *********************************************************************** <---- End Included Message ----> From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Jan 6 15:04:57 1998 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 16:04:57 +0100 Subject: kuyava in RV Message-ID: <161227034646.23782.18113941574399266154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am I right that so far no-one has reacted to: Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:57:33 EST From: Palaniappa Subject: kuyava in RV I am intrigued by the following RV lines (Source: the Vedavid Web site), in which an enemy of Vedic Aryans is called "kuyava". . . . (ref. to RV 1.103.8, 1.104.3 etc.) . . . Does anybody know of any discussions related to "kuyava" in RV? This is interesting because "kuyavan" in Tamil means "potter". Some basic discussions can be found in Grassmann's Dict. and in Geldner's transl. Ku'yava occurs in VaajSamhitaa 18.10 where it must mean something related to food, acc. to Grassmann "bad harvest" [one would like to read a-ku- yavam in the series of desirable things enumerated at this place]. In the RV Grassm considers the word to be either an epitheton or a name of a demon bringing bad harvest. Geldner on 1.103.8 suggests the word is an abbreviation of ku'ya-vaac (which occurs RV 1.174.4), hence meaning "speaking unintelligbly". So far no reason to assume the meaning "potter" for this word in the RV (and VS), which does not resist an "intra-Vedic" etymology. Nor do I see a contextual justification for the assumption that the meaning "potter" played a (secondary) role in the language of the Vedic authors. Best wishes, JH From oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR Tue Jan 6 22:01:32 1998 From: oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR (Boris Oguibenine) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 17:01:32 -0500 Subject: Albrecht Weber etc. offprints : clarification Message-ID: <161227034632.23782.7401120713068472225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:30:15 -0500, Allen W Thrasher wrote: >Someone thought my message offering offprints of Weber's papers did not >make it clear what was offered was duplicate copies of offprints of >published papers. We are retaining first copies, usually in the form of the >bound vols. of the serial or Weber's own bound collections of offprints and >other pamphlets. We are retaining any copies of offprints that have >significant annotations by Weber. We are even retaining his galley proofs. >All of these will get some form of cataloging. > >We have treated the whole collection with extreme respect and don't want >to sound like we were giving away _manuscripts_ of his papers or anything >else unique. > >Susan McMahon of Berkeley and Harry Falk of Berlin have put in first and >second dibs on the duplicate offprints. > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, >Senior Reference Librarian >Southern Asia Section >Asian Division >LJ150 >Library of Congress >101 Independence Ave., SE >Washington, DC 20540-4810 >tel. 202-707-3732 >fax 202-707-1724 >athr at loc.gov Dear Dr. Thrasher, please put my library on the list, if possible. We would apreciate to have the offprints available. Boris Oguibenine University of Strasbourg 14, rue Descartes F 67084 Strasbourg France From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jan 6 17:48:46 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 17:48:46 +0000 Subject: Kashmiri Text of Gita In-Reply-To: <34B1D7B0.4D2287C3@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <161227034642.23782.15122054669904838049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "Kashmiri gita" which you have heard of is almost certainly the following book: Poojya Acharyashri Charantirtha Maharaj (Purvashram: Rajvaidya, Jivram Kalidas Shastri), _Sri Bhagavad Gita: 745 Verses, Bhojapatri Gita. Gondal Gita. First edition 1937 -- Latest edition 1990_ (Gondal: Shri Bhuvaneshwari Prakashan, 1990). You can probably get a copy by writing to Jivram's son, Ghanashyamji, who runs the Bhuvaneshwari Pith in Gondal today. Write to: Bhuvaneshwari Prakashan Ghanshyam Bhuvan, Gondal, India 360 311. My copy of the book cost Rs. 50/-. The manuscript on which this edition is based was part of the collection of Jivram Kalidas Shastri, and was catalogued in _Catalogue & Index of manuscripts: hastalikhita granthasuci_ published by the Shri Bhuvaneshwari Pith, Gondal, in 1960. The "Bhojapatropalikhita" Gita MS is described on p.17. This collection of MSS has been sold to the Gujarat State Govt. and relocated in Jamnagar, where it is now housed in the library building of the Gujarat Ayurvedic University (GAU). I examined the abovementioned MS some years ago, and in my opinion it is a modern manuscript (modern, blocky-looking Devanagari on stuck-together, cut sheets of birch bark). All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Tue Jan 6 17:48:39 1998 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 18:48:39 +0100 Subject: jogayara in Samavayanga-suttam? In-Reply-To: <199801060013.LAA21420@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227034644.23782.6526934111424357594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Royce Wiles wrote: [...] [Re: jogaayaara] > you. Have you thought of checking Vijayarajendra's Abhidhanarajendrah > 1910-25 (7 v.)? The Library at ANU has managed to misplace v.s 3 and 4, and > v. 3 is just the one needed. The Abhidhaanaraajendra gives "Samm 1 kaa.n.da" and "Vaacas" as references. The first refers to Siddhasena's Divaakara's Sammatitarkaprakara.na (which is written in Prakrit, also known as Sammaisutta), according to the table of abbreviations the second refers to Vaacaspatyabhidhaana, obviously a Kosha, but I am not sure what it really is (there is an old Kosha work, 'Sabdaar.nava by Vaacaspati which is lost, and a modern six or seven volume work by Taranatha Tarkavacaspati known as Vaacaspatyam; perhaps others?). I guess the reference in the "Illustrated Ardhamagadhi" dictionary was taken from Abhidhaanaraajendra (?). I have seen only one occurence of "joga" in the Sammatitarka: the compound "joganimmita" (1.kanda), but I may have overlooked others. It is a subtle work not meant for fast reading. Peter Wyzlic From roheko at MSN.COM Wed Jan 7 02:34:55 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 03:34:55 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034651.23782.8810452867920861353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sirs, being more clearly: sva as adjective connected with a compositum like maataa-pitroor is still without sense. I do not mean sva as an adjective to a single word -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Dominique.Thillaud An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Dienstag, 6. Januar 1998 17:25 Betreff: Re: Help with a sentence? >>I mean svayoour maataa-pitroor would be without >>sense. Can you give me an example with sva- as an >>adjective? > > the FIRST litterary example of sva given in MMW lexicon >(p.1275,c.1) is: >taM svAd AsyAd asRjat (Mn i,94) > easy to find, isn't it ? > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Jan 7 05:49:39 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 06:49:39 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034653.23782.12538995006799020196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >being more clearly: sva as adjective connected >with a compositum like >maataa-pitroor is still without sense. >I do not mean sva as an adjective to a single word How about svau maataapitarau = (one's) own father and mother svayoor maataapitrooH = of (one's) own father and mother Seems to me to make all the sense one could hope for. Btw, since when do adjectives care if they qualify a simple or a compound word? From roheko at MSN.COM Wed Jan 7 09:14:49 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 10:14:49 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034655.23782.5916512661977603125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You know dear Jakob, a lok. abs. is not very fair (since here you get your subject: but what would be the subject in the sentence you mentioned firstly, if you disconnect sva from kaH: svayoor ...... zakyate to handle as a separate sentence, how to translate this? In my opinion there is no sense - it could be with sense if there is like in the Jainprakrit also something as a gen. abs. = meaning of lok. abs.), but I give myself being overpowered (geschlagen). 1 point for you. Let us return to your first question: do you accept my advice for taking sva as a reflexiv pronomina or not? If not: What will be your final translation? In any way I am surprised that this special point raised such a discussion it should really be mentioned in the Sanskrit Grammars or not? You asked for help on your sentence, I sent you my opinion. I myself have no more questions. But let me win the next point, please. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Jacob Baltuch An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Mittwoch, 7. Januar 1998 06:50 Betreff: Re: Help with a sentence? >>being more clearly: sva as adjective connected >>with a compositum like >>maataa-pitroor is still without sense. >>I do not mean sva as an adjective to a single word > >How about > > svau maataapitarau = (one's) own father and mother > > svayoor maataapitrooH = of (one's) own father and mother > >Seems to me to make all the sense one could hope for. > >Btw, since when do adjectives care if they qualify a simple or a compound >word? > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Jan 7 15:49:28 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 10:49:28 -0500 Subject: Kuyava Message-ID: <161227034659.23782.9866463531225337011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In relation to the discussion of Kuyava, a previous message brought up the word kUyavasA. I am not sure if the two words are related, but certainly the latter expression has a parallel in the word sUyavasa which is understood by Surya Kanta to mean "full of grass". Related expressions are sUyavasAd, sUyavasin, and sUyavasyu. Most likely, the personal name Kuyava is not related to either of these words. Madhav Deshpande From ravi at TAMU.EDU Wed Jan 7 17:38:52 1998 From: ravi at TAMU.EDU (Ravi R. Iyer) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 11:38:52 -0600 Subject: Kuyava Message-ID: <161227034668.23782.6340288155535057456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> while we are talking of variants, may I bring up another word.. "kUyavA" which appears in the 4th anuvAka of the chamakaprashnah and has been translated as a grain of some sort.. (according to T. R. Rajagopala Aiyar, they are millets). -Ravi > In relation to the discussion of Kuyava, a previous message >brought up the word kUyavasA. I am not sure if the two words are related, >but certainly the latter expression has a parallel in the word sUyavasa >which is understood by Surya Kanta to mean "full of grass". Related >expressions are sUyavasAd, sUyavasin, and sUyavasyu. Most likely, the >personal name Kuyava is not related to either of these words. > Madhav Deshpande Center for Genome Research Albert B. Alkek Institute of Biosciences & Technology 2121 Holcombe Blvd., Houston, TX-77030 USA WWW - http://http.tamu.edu/~rri3004/ravi.html WWW2- http://home.earthlink.net/~ravi/iyer.html Email: ravi at tamu.edu ============================================================== Subhaashitam: (Ancient Sanskrit Couplet) ||Kshamaa balam a-shaktaanaam; shaktaanaam bhUshaNam kshamaa| Kshamaa vashikrte loke, kshamayA: kim na sidhyati ? | || Subhashitasya anuvaadam (Translation): Forgiveness is the strength of the weak. Forgiveness embellishes the mighty. In a world that can be conquered by forgiveness, what is not possible by forgiveness? ============================================================== From agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jan 7 18:29:05 1998 From: agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 13:29:05 -0500 Subject: Kuyava In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034663.23782.68158907053426901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are the long U's in the sUyavasa words a reflex of a laryngeal: Hyava? If so, the variant kUyava may, as Jan Houben points out, be more original than kuyava... Arlo Griffiths On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > In relation to the discussion of Kuyava, a previous message > brought up the word kUyavasA. I am not sure if the two words are related, > but certainly the latter expression has a parallel in the word sUyavasa > which is understood by Surya Kanta to mean "full of grass". Related > expressions are sUyavasAd, sUyavasin, and sUyavasyu. Most likely, the > personal name Kuyava is not related to either of these words. > Madhav Deshpande > From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Wed Jan 7 22:24:31 1998 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 14:24:31 -0800 Subject: tArakAmaya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034669.23782.11128613418368201023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Simson I read your message only today after Christmass vacations. I am quoting the gita Press edition of BhAgavata IX.14.7 "samarastArakAmayah" translated as "There raged a battle for the sake of Tara which caused the annihilation of gods an asuras." This interpretation is attested by VaMZIdhara in his commentary as "tAraiva tArakA tasyA hetorAgataH PrAptastArakAmayaH "mayaT ca" iti hetuvAcakAdAgata ityarthe mayaT. The suffix mayaT is added in three senses: 1.vikAra, meaning made of, or transformation of. ex. mRnmayo ghataH; kASThamayam gRham, a jar made of earth, a house made of wood or jar is the transformation of earth; a house is the transformation of wood. The analysyss of the example mRnmayo gataH is mRdo vikAraH. The question arises how there is SaSthi vibhakti i mRdah because SaSthi is always in vaiyadhikaranya and prathamA is in sAmAnAdhikaranya. Thus SaSthi in bheda or difference and prathamA is in abheda or non difference. In the example devadattaH brAhmaNaH, devadatta is not different from brAhmaNaH, therefore prathamA. But in the examples mRdo ghatah, pASANasya pratimA or mama gRham, there is difference. Why there is SaSthi vibhakti in mRdo ghataH in the absence of identity? 2. prAchurya, meaning profusion or excess or abundance. ex. ghRtamayo yaj?aH. The sacrifice having abundant clarified butter. 3. hetuvacakAdAgata. ex. a) viSamamayah and samamayah "kAZikA" b) anyA jagad-dhitamayI manasaH pravRttiH (paNDitarAja jagannAtha bhAminIvilAsa 1.68) c) tathAtma paramAtmanorupaniSanmayI saNgame vilAsa muralI bhavA virutiradya vairAyate.(rUpagoswami, vidagdhamAdhava 6.11) I hope that this will answer your query. Sincerely R.V. Joshi On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Georg von Simson wrote: > On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:32:43, Rasik Vihari Joshi wrote: > >I have been following the correspondance on tArakAmaya. It > >seems to me that the answer to the question of its meaning is > >quite simple. We have here a clear case of the use of the > >suffix mayaT as marked by PANini "mayaT ca" in the sense of > >"hetuvAcakAdAgataH". Thus tArA is tArakA plus mayaT. It > >qualifies samaraH. Meaning there was a battle for the sake of > >tArA. > >I hope this is of some use for the people who posed the question. > > That is a very interesting suggestion indeed (PANini4.3.74: tata AgataH, > plus 4.3.81: hetumanuSyebhyo 'nyatarasyAM rUpyaH, plus 4.3.82: mayaT ca)! > But then, in order to include the Skanda-TAraka myth, we should not > translate *(a battle) for the sake of tArA*, but *(a battle) caused by a > star (or: by stars) (tArakA)*. > On the other hand, -maya has normally the meaning *consisting of*, and hetu > might just mean *material cause*. The grammarians give as examples > Devadatta-maya and VAyudatta-maya to account for -manuSyebhyo in P. 4.3.81, > but what does that really mean? I found BhImasenamaya in MahAbhArata > 5.50.25 and 11.11.14, but here the meaning is nothing but *consisting of > BhImasena* (in a simile). Can you (or anyone else) give an example from the > literature for the actual use of -maya in the sense *for the sake of* or > *caused by*? > Otherwise I would still think that Amaya was originally intended, > especially since Ya. Vassilkov (thank you for your elucidating message > which arrived just now when I was writing this!) now found this > interpretation attested with NIlakaNTha. > > Best wishes > > Georg v.Simson > > Professor Georg von Simson > University of Oslo > Department of East European and Oriental Studies > Box 1030, Blindern > 0315 Oslo, Norway > From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Jan 7 15:06:28 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 16:06:28 +0100 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19980102160936.119fedb4@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034657.23782.5656979530673630207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> test; please ignore. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Jan 7 15:56:45 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 16:56:45 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya (another) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19971222221513.2c37846c@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034661.23782.5658613710999100982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a rather late reply - I was temporarily disconnected from the list because of a change of my e-mail address (see above). On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:47:47, D. V. NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >It is getting "curiouser and curiouser" (Alice in Wonderland). > >We have another tArakAmaya in harivamza purANA. It has nothing to do >with either tArA or tAraka. (Because it talks about viSNu as KriSNa >it is perhaps a latter addition.) In this war candra fights for the devAs >instead of against them. The only justifications I could find for calling >the battle tArakAmaya are (Gita Press, Gorakhpur Edition) > > EtasminnantarE mEghA nirvANAGgAravarSiNah > sArkacandragrahagaNam chAdayantO nabhasthalam (1.42.13) > >which can be thought as a tArakA+Amaya. Stars are effectively covered to >prevent them from shining. > >The other is > > tamRkSayOgAnugatam zizirAmzum dvijEsvaram > jagacchAyAGkitatanum naizasya tamasah kSayam (1.44.25) > >candra is followed by stars into the battle. So the interpretation is >tArakA+mayah i.e., full of stars. > >Though the passage most probably may be an interpolation, we can here >perhaps see interpretation of tArakAmayA as "full of stars". > >As I do not have critical edition of harivamza purANA I do not know >whether this portion is treated as prakSipta or not. > >regards, > >sarma. Indeed, the matter is getting "curiouser and curiouser". The passages you quote, are also to be found in the critical edition of the HarivaMza (32.13 and 34.24). The battle between dAnavas and devas is called saMgrAmas tArakAmayaH at the beginning of the whole episode, in vs. 32.10. And though a certain TAra is mentioned (and his chariot described) in 33.9 among the dAnavas, he does not play any major part in this story. We thus observe the application of the term tArakAmaya on a battle that is neither particularly concerned with TAraka nor with TArA. You suggest that the term could be interpreted as tArakA-Amaya in vs. 1.42.13 = Crit. Ed. 32.13, but that the other passage, 1.44.25 = Crit. Ed. 34.24, suggests the interpretation tArakA+mayah i.e., full of stars. But would one call, e.g., a battle where the gods participate, (yuddhaM) devamayam? That would sound odd to my ears. I would still prefer tArakA+Amaya, and considering the description of the HarivaMza, where sun, moon and stars are obscured in a kind of cosmic upheaval, the interpretation "(a battle) in which the stars are impaired" does not seem impossible. I would - considering all the evidence that has turned up so far - nevertheless prefer the interpretation: "(a battle) destructive by the influence of (bad) stars". We may compare the English term 'disastrous' (from Greek dys-, 'bad', and astEr- 'star'), meaning approximately the same. Before the MahAbhArata battle starts, lots of inauspicious configurations of planets and stars are mentioned (Mbh. VI), and, conversely, after KRSNa/ViSNu's intervention in our HarivaMza story, the whole cosmos becomes peaceful again, which includes that: na vigrahaM grahAz cakruH (Hariv., Crit. Ed., 32.36), "the planets do no longer fight each other". Thus, the term tArakAmaya might have had a more general meaning before it normally was applied to the Skanda-TAraka and the TArA-Soma-BRhaspati myths, where single stars were personified, but still called 'Star'. One possible objection to this hypothesis is the circumstance that HarivaMza usually is considered to be later than MahAbhArata. But does this preclude the possibility that it, for once, preserves an older meaning of a word? Perhaps you find still more evidence?? Best regards, Georg v. Simson From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Jan 7 18:40:03 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 19:40:03 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034666.23782.12503444946264217816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >what would be the subject in the >sentence you mentioned firstly, if you disconnect >sva from kaH: svayoor ...... zakyate to handle as >a separate sentence, how to translate this? The subject would be the (real) subject of jJaatum na zakyam: ``svayoor maataa-pitroor api sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' (transl: it is impossible (for one) to know the whole life even of (one's) own parents) >Let us return to your first question: do you >accept my advice for taking sva as a reflexiv >pronomina or not? I do. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Jan 8 14:30:45 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (SARAI) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 98 09:30:45 -0500 Subject: EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT from SARAI Message-ID: <161227034673.23782.4449721213886061770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Our apologies for any cross-posting. If you have any questions or comments, please contact event organizers DIRECTLY as listed below. Do not "reply" or send comments/questions to SARAI. ++++++++++++++++++ Himal Conference on South Asian Mediocrity 2-3 May 1998 (Sat-Sun), Kathmandu Himal, the South Asian Magazine, is organising a conference on South Asian Mediocrity in Kathmandu on 2-3 May 1998. The conference will seek to identify and explain the levels of mediocrity found in all aspects of South Asian life, from scholarship, business, politics to media, architecture and public health. The gathering will strive to survey the levels of mediocrity and understand why South Asians lag ever-further behind in terms of our economies, culture(s), intellectualism and self-image. Is it true that South Asians were generally less mediocre four decades ago than today? What is it anyway, 'nature' or 'nurture'? Scholars, specialists and generalists from across disciplines and national boundaries will come together in Kathmandu to present papers that are not necessarily restricted by theme, country or philosophical orientation. All discussions will be held in plenary, with a panel reacting to paper presentations to be followed by audience participation. Himal welcomes all who are interested in participating in the conference. To know more, check Himal magazine or our web site. You may direct enquiries to: Himal Magazine GPO Box 7251 Kathmandu, Nepal Tel: +977-1-522113, 523845 Fax: +977-1-521013 Email: himalmag at mos.com.np website: www.himalmag.com Most frequently asked questions about the Himal Conference on South Asian Mediocrity: Q. Is this a joke? A. No, this is dead serious. Q. But is it not negative? A. No, this is among the most positive of exercises Himal has been involved in in its ten years. Q. Do the conference papers themselves have to be mediocre to be accepted? A. No, we will have the best minds of South Asia presenting papers. Q. What if after all the trouble the conference turns out to be poor? A. Not to worry. It will only reflect the state of our politics, economics, scholarship, showmanship, sportsmanship, penmanship... Anyway, it is up to you. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Jan 8 11:14:13 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 98 12:14:13 +0100 Subject: Help with a sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034671.23782.6219958642547100784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>what would be the subject in the >>sentence you mentioned firstly, if you disconnect >>sva from kaH: svayoor ...... zakyate to handle as >>a separate sentence, how to translate this? > >The subject would be the (real) subject of jJaatum na zakyam: > >``svayoor maataa-pitroor api sarvam caritram jJaatum na zakyam'' > >(transl: it is impossible (for one) to know the whole life even of >(one's) own parents) > >>Let us return to your first question: do you >>accept my advice for taking sva as a reflexiv >>pronomina or not? > >I do. Don't me, perhaps because I don't understand all. According Stchoupak, Nitti, Renou's "Dictionnaire Sanskrit-Francais", sv zakya- : "le neutre peut aussi s'employer IMPERSONNELLEMENT, avec infinitif non passif" (I upcase). There is just a gnomic sentence without any subject and introducing (for one) and (one's) is artificial. Perhaps they exist in the deep structure, but they are neutralized in the nominal transformation who cut the common referent of zakyam and jJAtum: The "formal subject" in this nominal forms could be: I, you, she, we, Peter or the cat. About him, the only thing we can know is an almost empty semantic feature: it can be a subject for the verbs zak- and jJA-, nothing else (number, gender, person, &c.). Naming it the "real subject" is nothing but a improper projection. Without subject, how sva can be a pro-noun? how inflect it? Before a noun, sva acts clearly as an adjective qualifying here the parents as "belonging strongly to the context" (probably the ancient meaning of *swe: see Eurindian facts and Ved. svadhA "inherent power") and svayor could be replaced by priyayor, satyayor, janitavator, or even removed. The adjectival use of sva is well attested (previous mails), his Latin equivalent "suus" is an adjective and languages need commonly such adjectives (Fr. "propre", Eng. "own"). The fact that some of them can be used as pronouns ("this is my own car" / "that's my own") don't implies they ARE pronouns. This opinion is Renou's one (Gr. Sanscr. ?255): "sva-, beaucoup plus souvent adjectif que pronom (...), insiste en principe sur la notion de propriete" and Macdonell's one (Ved. Gr. for St. ?115c): "sva is a reflexive adjective (...). It is inflected like an ordinary adjective (priya) in the RV (except the two isolated pronominal forms svasmin and svasyAs)." (somebody able to count the number of sve in the RV ?) To give a personal answer at a connected problem, I believe that a compound such svapitR is originally a karmadhAraya, not a tatpuruSa, even if today both interpretations are possible. If I'm wrong, I would be very happy to know why. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU Fri Jan 9 00:16:52 1998 From: sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 98 16:16:52 -0800 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034675.23782.14664427105282574523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, Does anyone here have opinions on the location of Uttara Kuru? Please give your proposed boundaries and why you think that way. I'm interested mainly in theories placing it somewhere near the subcontinent and not in Siberia, the North Pole or the Western hemisphere. Respond to the list or by email. Thanks in advance, Paul Kekai Manansala From hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM Fri Jan 9 01:08:26 1998 From: hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM (Harold F. Arnold) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 98 17:08:26 -0800 Subject: Help with a sentence? Message-ID: <161227034677.23782.17116406679138814844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Aplogies for the following elementary question. The Sanskrit >list if of course the place for such queries, and I have asked >the question there, but received no answer. Maybe my question >was swamped by the noise of more interesting debates. How does one subscribe to the Sanskrit list? From thillaud at UNICE.FR Fri Jan 9 08:13:12 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 09:13:12 +0100 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034681.23782.1211493327196552554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anyone here have opinions on the location of Uttara Kuru? >Please give your proposed boundaries and why you think that >way. I'm interested mainly in theories placing it somewhere near >the subcontinent and not in Siberia, the North Pole or the Western >hemisphere. The Uttarakurus are clearly a mythical people (long life, happiness, &c.) and searching their exact location would be pointless, but 1) They seem to have many common features with the Hyperboreans, a Greek mythical people whose name means "beyond the North Wind" and who are linked with the cult of Apollo. From a long time I believe (without any proof) they are to be considered as the memory of an homeland, before the Greek come in Greece, perhaps an other Eurindian group ? 2) The Uttarakurus are said (MMW sv. kuru, without reference) the ancient home of the Aryans. 3) The Divine name apollOn is without etymology (a link with the Hittit Appaliuna is to forget) but he could be derived from a *H2-kv-o-l-w- who, at zero degree, is perfectly able to give Skr. kuru. Moreover Apollo is allways defined as the Bowman, a rare weapon in Greece but not in Indian epics! Hence, in my present research on the coherence of a subgroup Indo-Greek, I consider the location you ask for, is to search somewhere around Europa and Asia limits. Finding the exact place is a task for archeologists, but a very difficult one. From my point of view, I reject completely Renfrew's theory but Mallory (In Search of the Indo-Europeans ...) seem to make very fine and credible synthesis. He is considering the culture Andronovo (south of Oural mountains) as a good candidate for Indo-Aryan homeland but, clearly, the task is unfinished: Andronovo's people is a recent one (2nd mill.), too recent to be an Indo-Greek homeland. I would prefer the Yamnaya civilisation (4th-3rd mill.) lying along the North of the Caspian and Black Seas. Hoping to help, Dominique PS: searching an indirect phonetical link between [Uttara] Kuru and [Hyper]boreans (Gr. huper = Skr. upara) is very dubious but not strictly impossible: the mythical Ossetic family name Boratae and some other names give perhaps a track, but almost completely erased ... Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU Fri Jan 9 17:42:25 1998 From: sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 09:42:25 -0800 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034693.23782.12428113251574597901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > This is not entirely true. In Greek and Latin sources Uttarakuru is rendered Ottorokora (and > variants). In the Geography of Ptolemy Ottorokora is a city, Ottorokoras is a river and > Ottorokorai a people, all of them situated in the southern part of Serike. Serike, which is > definitely not China as is often thought, included not only extensive parts of Central Asia > including Tibet, but very probably also Assam and adjacent areas. > The Attacori of Pliny might also refer to the Uttarakuru people and are explicitly identified > by him with the Hyperboraeans. His description of their country as a valley secluded by > mountains and enjoying a beneficial climate (like the Hyperboreans) as well as the rest of his > geographical indications seem to me to point in the direction of Assam. > Interesting. Buddhist legends state that the Buddha and early Buddhists made pilgrimages to a lake in Uttarakuru that was surrounded by five mountains. One of these mountains was Kailasa. So that fits Pliny's description fairly well. Also thanks for all the other contributions thus far. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Jan 9 16:49:20 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 10:49:20 -0600 Subject: Sandal Mountain Breeze Message-ID: <161227034691.23782.13267124960819535246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sandal Mountain Breeze *********************** I am intrigued by Dr. S. Palaniappan's question relating to Sandal mountain breeze. Mr. Sarma quotes many passages from MBh. But are they from Southern recensions of MBh? Also, do they talk of malaya breeze tormenting separated lovers? This theme of malaya mountain breeze tormenting lovers in separation and being pleasant when lovers are together is as old as Tamil literature (cilappatikaaram, Azvaar poetry, Kamban etc.,) Who makes use of this theme first in Sanskrit? Is it Kalidasa or Jayadeva? Or is this concept as old as Ramayana or atleast Mahabharatha? The Madurai stalapuraaNam states that Nataraja comes down South and dances facing South because "the Southern sandal mountain breeze soothes him when he gets tired doing the cosmic dance". potiyilE viLaikinRana can^tanam, potiyil natiyilE viLaikinRana muttam, an^ nati cUz patiyilE viLaikinRana tarumam, ap patiyOr matiyilE viLaikinRana maRai mutal patti. kaTuk kavin peRu kaNTanum, ten ticai n^Okki aTukka van^tu van^tu ATuvAn;- ATalin iLaippu viTukka, vAra men kAl tiru mukattu iTai vIci maTukkavum, *tamiz tiruc cevi mAn^tavum* anRO?! - tiruviLaiATal purANam - by ParaJcOti munivar N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Thanks to IITS-Univ. of Koeln website of tamil texts, I could check my memory. From John.Powers at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Jan 9 01:07:04 1998 From: John.Powers at ANU.EDU.AU (John Powers) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 12:07:04 +1100 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034679.23782.5122874871957863203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala writes: > >Does anyone here have opinions on the location of Uttara Kuru? >Please give your proposed boundaries and why you think that >way. I'm interested mainly in theories placing it somewhere near >the subcontinent and not in Siberia, the North Pole or the Western >hemisphere. Respond to the list or by email. > I looked up some references to Uttarakuru when I saw it mentioned in a text I translated. Here is the note I wrote about it: According to Monier-Williams _A Sanskrit-English Dictionary_, p. 178), this is one of the nine divisions of the world in traditional Indian cosmology. This is the country of the northern Kurus, situated in the north of India, and described as a country of eternal beatitude. It is said to be square, measuring 20,000 yojanas per side, and the beings who live there have life-spans of 1,000 years. In addition to their long lifespans, the inhabitants are said to have exceptionally pleasant lives and to be naturally virtuous. See Visuddhimagga, ed. C.A.F. Rhys Davids (London: Pali Text Society, 1975), p. 15. Monier-Williams (p. 294) identifies the Kurus as a people of India, and states that Uttarakuru is the northernmost of the four mahaadviipas (great continents), or principal divisions of the world according to traditional Indian cosmology. Uttarakuru was probably thought to have been situated near the country of the Pa?calas, beyond the northernmost range of the Himalayas. John Powers Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Fri Jan 9 13:38:38 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 14:38:38 +0100 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034684.23782.7053337168128122584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > > >Does anyone here have opinions on the location of Uttara Kuru? > >Please give your proposed boundaries and why you think that > >way. I'm interested mainly in theories placing it somewhere near > >the subcontinent and not in Siberia, the North Pole or the Western > >hemisphere. > > The Uttarakurus are clearly a mythical people (long life, > happiness, &c.) and searching their exact location would be pointless,... This is not entirely true. In Greek and Latin sources Uttarakuru is rendered Ottorokora (and variants). In the Geography of Ptolemy Ottorokora is a city, Ottorokoras is a river and Ottorokorai a people, all of them situated in the southern part of Serike. Serike, which is definitely not China as is often thought, included not only extensive parts of Central Asia including Tibet, but very probably also Assam and adjacent areas. The Attacori of Pliny might also refer to the Uttarakuru people and are explicitly identified by him with the Hyperboraeans. His description of their country as a valley secluded by mountains and enjoying a beneficial climate (like the Hyperboreans) as well as the rest of his geographical indications seem to me to point in the direction of Assam. Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent, Belgium From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 9 15:48:43 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 15:48:43 +0000 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: <34B6285E.91D@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227034689.23782.15972717961810707045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:38 PM 1/9/98 +0100, you wrote: >Dominique.Thillaud wrote: >> >> >Does anyone here have opinions on the location of Uttara Kuru? >> >Please give your proposed boundaries and why you think that >> >way. I'm interested mainly in theories placing it somewhere near >> >the subcontinent and not in Siberia, the North Pole or the Western >> >hemisphere. >> >> The Uttarakurus are clearly a mythical people (long life, >> happiness, &c.) and searching their exact location would be pointless,... > >This is not entirely true. In Greek and Latin sources Uttarakuru is rendered Ottorokora (and >variants). In the Geography of Ptolemy Ottorokora is a city, Ottorokoras is a river and >Ottorokorai a people, all of them situated in the southern part of Serike. Serike, which is >definitely not China as is often thought, included not only extensive parts of Central Asia >including Tibet, but very probably also Assam and adjacent areas. >The Attacori of Pliny might also refer to the Uttarakuru people and are explicitly identified >by him with the Hyperboraeans. His description of their country as a valley secluded by >mountains and enjoying a beneficial climate (like the Hyperboreans) as well as the rest of his >geographical indications seem to me to point in the direction of Assam. > > >Erik Seldeslachts >Universiteit Gent >Gent, Belgium > > Here are the stanzas from MBh. describing Uttara kurus in the sabhA parvA. There are some in bhISma parvA also where the longevity of the people there is mentioned. uttaraM kuruvarSantu sa samAsAdya pANDavaH iyESa jEtuM taM dEzaM pAkazAsananandanaH. tata EnaM mahAvIryaM mahAkAyA mahAbalAh dvArapAlAh samAsAdya hRSTa vacanamabravIt. pArtha nEdaM tvayA zakyaM puraM jEtuM kathaJcana upAvartasva kalyaNa paryAptamidamacyuta. idaM puraM yaH pravizEd dhruvaM na sa bhavEnnaraH prIyAmahE tvayA vIra paryAptO vijayastava. Though it starts with "uttaraM kuruvarSaM", in the last two slokAs the reference is to a city. Perhaps the capital also is called Uttarakuru puraM. This tallies with Ptolemy's description of Ottorokoro as city. regards, sarma. From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Jan 9 20:56:30 1998 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 15:56:30 -0500 Subject: Draft scheme 2.01 on the Web Message-ID: <161227034695.23782.285427273006058748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues As part of the continuing work on developing an 8-bit transliteration standard for Indic scripts, being done under the ISO, I have put a draft scheme on my Web pages. It may be accessed from the Transliteration top page (URL at the end of this message) or directly at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd201a.htm Please take a look, try it out, and give me your comments (directly, unless of course you want to raise a discussion on the list). The scheme is my attempt to implement discussions being held on the Conv-dev mailing list, but it is the first time the 11 scripts involved have been shown in tabular form. The philosophy behind the style of transliteration adopted is explained further on my Transliteration pages. This posting is being sent to the mailing lists Conv-dev, TC46SC2, and Indology (with apologies to those who receive more than one copy). I should be very grateful if those interested in particular scripts or languages could pass on the URL to other people who might like to comment. Many thanks, Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI Fri Jan 9 15:21:49 1998 From: Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 17:21:49 +0200 Subject: Acta Orientalia vol. 58 / 1997 Message-ID: <161227034686.23782.2184785436986198687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A new issue of Acta Orientalia (ediderunt Societates Orientales Danica, Fennica, Norvegica, Svecica) has come out with the following contents: Abdelmadjid Allaoua: Sur les pronoms personnels: questions d'autonomie primitive (pp. 7-23) Jaakko Hameen-Anttila: Qur. 53: 19, the prophetic experience and the "Satanic verses" - a reconsideration (pp. 24-34) Philippe Provencal: Animal names gathered by interviews with members of the Muzin tribe in Sinai (pp. 35-46) Harry Falk: Refining gold in ancient India: ad JUB 3.17,3 (pp. 47-51) K. R. Norman: The Jain nijjuttis (pp. 52-74) Roger Greatrex: Tribute missions from the Sichuan borderlands to the Imperial Court (1400-1665) (pp. 75-151) Stephan Werner-Thuno: Chinese lexical cuisine: A study of the lexical field of cooking in Modern Chinese (pp. 152-184) Book reviews (pp. 185-294) My earlier appeal for more subscriptions to save Acta Orientalia from ceasing publication seems to have had some effect (many thanks for all who responded positively), but we are still near the danger zone. It would help us to keep Acta Orientalia alive if we got some more subscriptions!! Subscriptions for Acta Orientalia (which is an annual publication) can be placed with Munksgaard International Publishers, PB 2148, DK-1016 Copenhagen K, Denmark, Fax +45 33 12 93 87, or from Munksgaard, Commerce Place, 350 Main Street, Malden, MA 02148-5018 USA, Fax +1-617-388-8274. The price for vol. 58 is c USD 74. With best wishes for a Happy New Year, Asko Parpola Asko Parpola ------ e-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Jan 10 07:49:52 1998 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 02:49:52 -0500 Subject: Draft scheme 2.01 on the Web Message-ID: <161227034700.23782.16021300886088043243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Main Table, Part 2, now shows that ORI has no character VA. I made this change a few hours after the original upload. Nothing else is changed. Sorry for the hiccup, Tony Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 10 00:46:26 1998 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 06:16:26 +0530 Subject: Navagrahas and history of Indian iconography Message-ID: <161227034697.23782.5343299434910260071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Please check out the site: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/5349/ This is a comprehensive compendium, together with a bibliography of western and Indian sources on astrology, covering a spectrum of the history of iconography based on both Gopinatha Rao and Jitendra Nath Bannerjee, framework of Indian astrology, sample horoscope preview, excerpts from Encyclopaedia Britannica related to ancient astral omens, navagraha stotras and krtis, ashtottara-nama-vali for each graha, the recently introduced Navagraha Temple Tour to the nine unique, mammoth temples of the Chola period in Tamilnadu,links to the UNESCO world heritage site for Konarak (sun temple), an audio clip on Gayathri, and links to NASA for the planets of the Solar System. Kindly provide info.on the astral phenomena and events described in the Mahabharata, and kaalaganana as enumerated in the Sankalpas, so that these can also be annotated and added, to provide a perspective on the concept of and history of time as perceived by indologists. Best regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman kalyan97 at yahoo.com From roheko at MSN.COM Sat Jan 10 08:09:08 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 09:09:08 +0100 Subject: Indra and heat Message-ID: <161227034698.23782.9534764232991400979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is well known that we might get Indra's attention as a benefit for acquiring internal tapas (heat) and for external heat too. The following story I found in a 5th century Jain source. I suppose there are some traditional aspects hidden, which I am actually not able to understand. Probably anyone of the members can give me a tip? The charioteer Naaga is still childless together with his wife Sulasaa (a laywomen) and he worships Indra, Skandha etc (indakhanda-aadi) for the purpose of a child while his wife (a saavikaa) is unwillingly, adressing him: Looka for another wife (annaM pariNehi). He answered, that this is necessary for a son (jadi tava putto tenaM kajjam). In following the advice of a doctor he cooked 3time 100000 kuDavas of sesamoil (tenaM vijjovadeseNaM tihiM satasahassehiM tiNNi tella-kulavaa pakkaa). Indra noticed her (sakkaalae saMlaavo: erisaa Sulasaa saavika?). He appeared disguised as a Jaina monk (devo aagato saadhuu). Because he appeared before Sulasaa like a Jain she welcomed him asking for the purpose of his visit. Indra: You have 100000 of sesamoil, give it to me (tumha satasahassapaakaM tellaM taM dehi). Three times she brought a pattaka, three times it broke (vejjeNa uvadiTThaM. "demi" atigataa. otaarentiie bhiHHaM pattagaM. bitiyaM gahaaya niggataa. taM pi bhinnaM. taiyaM pi bhinnaM). Indra was satisfied and handed over to her 32 pills (tuTTho devo: saahati jathaa-vidhiM battiisaM guliyaao deti). Take one pill after one, you will get 32 sons (kameNa khaaejjaasi. battiisaM puttaa hohinti), if you get any problems I will come again (jadaa ya te kiMci payoaNaM taahe saMbharejjaasi to ehaami). She took all 32 pills at one time, became ill, started the kayotsarga, Indra returned, insulted her in a friendly manner, assisted her in getting calm (zaanti) and announced to the birth of 32 sons at one time. The sons became closed friends of Bhimbhasaara ZreNika and died during a war. Any association is welcome, especially the fact that the non-Jain husband Naaga produced the heat (for his Jain-wife), Indra noticed her, and three times she tried to bring a pattaka of oil (just testing her strongness?) The story of Srucaavatii in the Mahaabhaarata (9.47) seems to be not relevant. Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Jan 10 12:46:29 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 13:46:29 +0100 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: <34B6285E.91D@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227034704.23782.8522649263696543851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This is not entirely true. In Greek and Latin sources Uttarakuru is >rendered Ottorokora (and >variants). In the Geography of Ptolemy Ottorokora is a city, Ottorokoras >is a river and >Ottorokorai a people, all of them situated in the southern part of Serike. >Serike, which is >definitely not China as is often thought, included not only extensive >parts of Central Asia >including Tibet, but very probably also Assam and adjacent areas. >The Attacori of Pliny might also refer to the Uttarakuru people and are >explicitly identified >by him with the Hyperboraeans. His description of their country as a >valley secluded by >mountains and enjoying a beneficial climate (like the Hyperboreans) as >well as the rest of his >geographical indications seem to me to point in the direction of Assam. Why not ? But the myths and rumors about "Lost Happy Valleys", Shangri-La, Eden, Ultimate Thule, Eldorado, &c. are very common ones and I'm not sure the sources of Ptolemy and Pliny were verified ones. Their conception of the Geography was not the our own ;-) Without archeological or textual evidence, an identification with any real place is nothing but a gamble (but perhaps you win!). Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 10 20:57:45 1998 From: nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Nikhil Rao) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 15:57:45 -0500 Subject: Indra and heat Message-ID: <161227034706.23782.2177248740545436127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CC From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Jan 10 17:15:55 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 18:15:55 +0100 Subject: Indra and heat In-Reply-To: <0ab873809080a18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <161227034702.23782.6975270862251221055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not the same story but some common features: - ambiguous relations between Indra and the mother - weak role played by the father in the conception - muliple birth (but just one hoped) of warriors - importance of the tapas - breaking something related to a womb (?) - a ritual fault of the mother Hence, perhaps a pattern transformation (?) of the birth of the Maruts (bAl. of rAm.) ? (remember the exit of kAzyapa (R.I,45.7): ityuktvA sa tapase yayau) And see the link between sesamum and dauhitra. The role played by the tapas to obtain a birth is a very common feature (probably because sperm = agni). I'm not sure it is significant Birth of the dhArtarASTrAs, gAndhArI hurting his belly ? dubious, but ? just a pattern, nothing else, Dominique PS1: I don't understand "laywoman", my English being too poor: "laic jainist woman" (the story) ? or "sensual one" (his name su-lasA) ? PS2: in Greece, I have just a very far fact. The "birth" of the Myrmidons is a gift of Zeus to Aiakos, ants are like sesamum's seeds and I'm able to show links between the Myrmidons and the Maruts. Alas, no mother nor break in this story ;-( Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 11 11:03:15 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 03:03:15 -0800 Subject: Naciketas Message-ID: <161227034708.23782.15484980222504628007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shalom (Peace, Shanti) to all, I am a Ph.D. student at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, new to this list. I am writing a thesis about Naciketas, the human hero of Kathopanishad, and his occurrences in other scriptures. I shall be very grateful for any information about other researchers dealing at present with this subject. I am trying to get in touch with Y.K. Wadhwani, who published articles about Naciketas' name. I shall be glad to get any information that will help me in this matter. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Jan 12 22:15:58 1998 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 14:15:58 -0800 Subject: Help on sanskrit zloka Message-ID: <161227034710.23782.18443360845546172486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members I am currently editing and translating a manuscript of a Sanskrit Anthology collected by RAma PratApa. Here I came across some Sanskrit zlokas which are not clear to me. I shall appreciate if anyone of you could kindly explain the following one to me and also provide the exact reference if possible: vedArdhayAntya iva te tu yapAdi yAyAc- zAntam rasArdhanayanA~nghri vRzAkSipatram / tad godhigArjunakareNa nirIkSitesmin bhUyo bramiSyati na jAtvabalAdipuSpe // I hope that I can get some answer. Thank you Rasik Vihari Joshi Prof of Sanskrit El Colegio de Mexico Camino al Ajusco 20 Mexico DF 01000 From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Jan 12 20:46:38 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 15:46:38 -0500 Subject: Relationships Between Features of DvIpas, Devas, and Oceans Message-ID: <161227034712.23782.6690156149863360399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Feature of DvIpa Deva Ocean ---------------- ------------- ---------------- Indian fig tree sun sugar cane juice {Plaksa) Silk-cotton tree moon liquor (Salmali) Kusa grass fire (Agni) ghee Mt. Kraunca water (Varuna) milk fig tree (Saka) air (Vayu) yogurt Lotus (Puskara) Brahma fresh water ---------------------------------------------------------- In the rows of the above table there seem to be some relationships: Fire and ghee are used in fire sacrifices. A lotus is the source of Brahma's origin. >?From your knowledge of the PurANas and similar writings are their other relationships between the features of the dvIpas and the demigods (devas) or the demigods (devas) and the oceans that you are aware of? Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Tue Jan 13 13:04:35 1998 From: vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 08:04:35 -0500 Subject: Re Message-ID: <161227034715.23782.9461249020295650374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On this auspicious Bhogi pandigai day, we would like to wish your family a Happy Pongal. Vasudha. From vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Tue Jan 13 13:05:29 1998 From: vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 08:05:29 -0500 Subject: Sandal Mountain Breeze Message-ID: <161227034717.23782.8070043348382212713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I just sent out a personal message-- please ignore it! Vasudha> From r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Tue Jan 13 11:48:09 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 13:48:09 +0200 Subject: Sindhi sailing vessels Message-ID: <161227034713.23782.12444481630001941386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I am looking for publication(s) giving a general description of Sindhi sailing vessels of the traditional type. So far I have been able to find only one reference: Zur geschichtlichen Bedeutung der fr?hen Seefahrt. (Schlingloff 1982, in: Kolloquien zur Allgemeinen und Vergleichenden Arch?ologie, M?nchen, Verlag C. H. Beck, 2 vols., pp. 51-85). --Unfortunately, the volume of this series corresponding to the year 1982 is not available in any of the countries cooperating with our library. Could anyone suggest something else that might be available, that would provide the required information? I need only a general description and not detailed technical information. Or failing that, does any library in Germany provide the service of photocopying and mailing articles contained in German publications? I would of course be happy to pay the required charges. Thank you, and with best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI Tue Jan 13 13:54:21 1998 From: Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 15:54:21 +0200 Subject: Sindhi sailing vessels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034719.23782.1455088245301078100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See the following two articles in M. Jansen and G. Urban (ed.), Interim Reports vol. 2: Reports on field work carried out at Mohenjo-Daro, Pakistan, 1983-84 by the IsMEO - Aachen University Mission, Aachen: German Research Project Mohenjo-Daro, RWTH, and Rome: Istituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente, 1987: pp. 169-181: G. Mustafa Shar, The Mohanna: An unknown life on the Indus river. pp. 183-185: Salma Sultana Begum, Boats on the Indus. I used these when giving the Sindhi terms in the caption of a photo by my photographer Jyrki Lyytikka published on page 13 (fig. 1.9) of my "Deciphering the Indus script" (Cambridge U.P. 1994). I notice now that I have failed to give these references in the notes and bibliography. Best regards, Asko Parpola >Dear members of the list, > >I am looking for publication(s) giving a general description of Sindhi >sailing vessels of the traditional type. > >So far I have been able to find only one reference: > >Zur geschichtlichen Bedeutung der fr?hen Seefahrt. (Schlingloff 1982, in: >Kolloquien zur Allgemeinen und Vergleichenden Arch?ologie, M?nchen, Verlag >C. H. Beck, 2 vols., pp. 51-85). > >--Unfortunately, the volume of this series corresponding to the year 1982 >is not available in any of the countries cooperating with our library. > >Could anyone suggest something else that might be available, that would >provide the required information? I need only a general description and not >detailed technical information. > >Or failing that, does any library in Germany provide the service of >photocopying and mailing articles contained in German publications? I would >of course be happy to pay the required charges. > >Thank you, and with best wishes, > >Ruth Schmidt > > >*********************************************** >Ruth Laila Schmidt >Dept of East European and Oriental Studies >University of Oslo >P.O. Box 1030 Blindern >N-0315 Oslo, Norway >Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 >Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 >Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Asko Parpola ------ e-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Jan 13 21:31:57 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 16:31:57 -0500 Subject: Master Manimala titles available on Exchange Message-ID: <161227034721.23782.11800686600851950913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following titles are available on exchange to other libraries. They are all in the Master Manimala , from Master Khelarilal and Sons, Varanasi. 1. Gangadhara, 1798-1885. Ayurvediya-paribhasa. Hindi and Sanskrit. 1937? (LCCN 83-910414). MMM, 67; Ayurvedavibhaga 1. 2. Ramesvaradatta. Nutanavastuprabandha grharatnabhusanam nama pindadarpana. Sanskrit and Hindi. MMM, 14; Jyautisavibhaga, 6. 3. Suklayajurvediyopanayanapaddhatih. MMM, 43; Karmakandavibhaga, 11. I think I offered these among others a couple of years ago but found no takers. Last chance? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From roheko at MSN.COM Wed Jan 14 02:20:14 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 03:20:14 +0100 Subject: Sindhi sailing vessels Message-ID: <161227034732.23782.2371330023349867286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please write just a message, Prof. Schlingloff will assist you: Prof. Schlingloff Institut f?r Indologie an der L. M. Universit?t Munich Geschwister Scholl Platz 1 80333 Munich Germany -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Ruth Laila Schmidt An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Mittwoch, 14. Januar 1998 00:22 Betreff: Sindhi sailing vessels Dear members of the list, I am looking for publication(s) giving a general description of Sindhi sailing vessels of the traditional type. So far I have been able to find only one reference: Zur geschichtlichen Bedeutung der fr?hen Seefahrt. (Schlingloff 1982, in: Kolloquien zur Allgemeinen und Vergleichenden Arch?ologie, M?nchen, Verlag C. H. Beck, 2 vols., pp. 51-85). --Unfortunately, the volume of this series corresponding to the year 1982 is not available in any of the countries cooperating with our library. Could anyone suggest something else that might be available, that would provide the required information? I need only a general description and not detailed technical information. Or failing that, does any library in Germany provide the service of photocopying and mailing articles contained in German publications? I would of course be happy to pay the required charges. Thank you, and with best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Wed Jan 14 20:38:07 1998 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 12:38:07 -0800 Subject: Thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034723.23782.3064357102620249802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof Simson I am glad that you received my books and that you agree with my interpretation of the tarakAmAya issue. you refer to your message of 7January for your own explanation but I can't find any text in your message as it only reads "ignore, test". Please send again that message to the list so that we read your explanation. Thankyou, with kind regards Rasik Vihari Joshi. On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Georg von Simson wrote: > Dear Professor Joshi, > today I was surprised by a parcel containing five books with > sanskrit poems written by you: zivalinga-rahasya, bhaktimImAMsA, > zrIrAdhApancazatI, sparzAsparza-viveka, and upadeza-vallI. Thank you very > much indeed! I am glad to see that sanskrit is still in use for scholarly > and poetical purposes, and I am looking forward to reading your poems. > Thank you also for answering my question about the use of the > suffix -maya in our discussion about the term tArakAmaya and your reference > to vaMzIdhara?s commentary. This was very helpful, showing that the term > could indeed be interpreted the way you suggest. As far as its origin is > concerned, I still would - with some doubts - favour the interpretation > tArakA-Amaya (see my message to the Indology group of Wednesday, 7 January). > > With best wishes and kind regards > Yours > > Georg v. Simson > > Professor Georg von Simson > University of Oslo > Department of East European and Oriental Studies > Box 1030, Blindern > 0315 Oslo, Norway > > > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 15 00:47:12 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 16:47:12 -0800 Subject: Deciphering the Indua valley script Message-ID: <161227034730.23782.3852116627105122707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Will somebody please point me to the latest in terms of decipherment of the Indus Valley Script? I would like to have your ides and opinions on the new( ~ 10 years old) theory about it's being related to Sanskrit. May I also request for references and papers on the latest status as regards the "Aryan Invasion Theory?" Looking forward to your replies and thanking you very much Regards Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Jan 14 22:50:44 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 17:50:44 -0500 Subject: Master Manimala books claimed Message-ID: <161227034728.23782.4055543053124510493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All three Master Manimala books offered for exchange have been claimed, no. 1 by the Wellcome Institute, 2 and 3 by the University of Strassbourg. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From wieson at RAINBOW.CH Wed Jan 14 21:14:27 1998 From: wieson at RAINBOW.CH (wieson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 22:14:27 +0100 Subject: Bibliography of South Asian linguistics, 1998 Message-ID: <161227034726.23782.10376464825962356837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello! I am currently compiling a bilbiography on South Asian linguistics conducted by scholars residing/working in Europe for the 'Yearbook of South Asian Languages and Linguistics' (ed. by Rajendra Singh, Montreal), which will be published next year by Sage Publications, Delhi. Last year concentrated mainly on Hindi-Urdu and Himalayan research. The main emphasis of this year's bibliography for Europe will be on historical linguistics - of all the language families of the sub-continent. In addition, work done in the last year (1997) on ANY aspect of South Asian linguistics will be included under a separate heading. I would like to ask all scholars residing in Europe who have done research in the 1990's on historical aspects of any South Asian language who would like to have this information included in the bibliography - as well as any research done on any aspect concerning these languages in the last year - to send me the relevant information at the address below by January 23, 1998 at the very latest. I am especially interested in research done AFTER 1993 (the last year covered by the Bibliographie Linguistique) as well as any literature which may have been overseen there. Please be sure to include all relevant information (especially issue no., page nos., etc., with journals). Please pass this message along to any of your colleagues who may be interested. Thanks in advance for your help! John Peterson Seminar f?r Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Z?rich Switzerland Fax-Nr. (+41)-1-634 49 10 Email: (preferably:) peterson at spw.unizh.ch or wieson at rainbow.ch From vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Thu Jan 15 13:34:06 1998 From: vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 08:34:06 -0500 Subject: Deciphering the Indua valley script Message-ID: <161227034739.23782.13426737998910215369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was an interesting discussion on the Aryan "invasion" / "migration" theories about a year back in the listserv of Religion in South Asia (American Academy of Religion). It can be found at: http://www.acusd.edu/~lnelson/risa/d-iaryan.txt There is annotated biblio as well on this topic, but nothing on the Indus script. Best wishes, Vasudha At 04:47 PM 1/14/98 PST, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > Will somebody please point me to the latest in terms of decipherment of >the Indus Valley Script? I would like to have your ides and opinions on >the new( ~ 10 years old) theory about it's being related to Sanskrit. >May I also request for references and papers on the latest status as >regards the "Aryan Invasion Theory?" > > Looking forward to your replies and thanking you very much >Regards >Krishna > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Jan 15 09:26:59 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 10:26:59 +0100 Subject: Deciphering the Indua valley script Message-ID: <161227034734.23782.10192997472930864393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:47 14.01.98 PST, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > Will somebody please point me to the latest in terms of decipherment of >the Indus Valley Script? I would like to have your ides and opinions on >the new( ~ 10 years old) theory about it's being related to Sanskrit. >May I also request for references and papers on the latest status as >regards the "Aryan Invasion Theory?" Here are a few suggestions: Asko Parpola, "Deciphering the Indus Script", Cambridge U.P. 1994, which was reviewed in Frontline on Feb. 21 197. Furthermore, Manohar some time ago sent two lists of books for and against the "Aryan Invasion Theory" to Indology. They should be retrievable from the Indology database. Natwar Jha has attempted to interpret the Indus script language as Sanskrit. >?From what I have seen of his method, I am not very impressed. I don't think many scholars in the West would accept the alleged relation to Sanskrit. But this theory has a fair amount of adherents in India, I believe. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Thu Jan 15 09:47:01 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 10:47:01 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya (another) Message-ID: <161227034736.23782.4805037650020740846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since I was told that the following message has not reached the group, I try to send it once again. If you already know it, please ignore it! (This is a rather late reply - I was temporarily disconnected from the list because of a change of my e-mail address, see above). On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:47:47, D. V. NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >It is getting "curiouser and curiouser" (Alice in Wonderland). > >We have another tArakAmaya in harivamza purANA. It has nothing to do >with either tArA or tAraka. (Because it talks about viSNu as KriSNa >it is perhaps a latter addition.) In this war candra fights for the devAs >instead of against them. The only justifications I could find for calling >the battle tArakAmaya are (Gita Press, Gorakhpur Edition) > > EtasminnantarE mEghA nirvANAGgAravarSiNah > sArkacandragrahagaNam chAdayantO nabhasthalam (1.42.13) > >which can be thought as a tArakA+Amaya. Stars are effectively covered to >prevent them from shining. > >The other is > > tamRkSayOgAnugatam zizirAmzum dvijEsvaram > jagacchAyAGkitatanum naizasya tamasah kSayam (1.44.25) > >candra is followed by stars into the battle. So the interpretation is >tArakA+mayah i.e., full of stars. > >Though the passage most probably may be an interpolation, we can here >perhaps see interpretation of tArakAmayA as "full of stars". > >As I do not have critical edition of harivamza purANA I do not know >whether this portion is treated as prakSipta or not. > >regards, > >sarma. Indeed, the matter is getting "curiouser and curiouser". The passages you quote, are also to be found in the critical edition of the HarivaMza (32.13 and 34.24). The battle between dAnavas and devas is called saMgrAmas tArakAmayaH at the beginning of the whole episode, in vs. 32.10. And though a certain TAra is mentioned (and his chariot described) in 33.9 among the dAnavas, he does not play any major part in this story. We thus observe the application of the term tArakAmaya on a battle that is neither particularly concerned with TAraka nor with TArA. You suggest that the term could be interpreted as tArakA-Amaya in vs. 1.42.13 = Crit. Ed. 32.13, but that the other passage, 1.44.25 = Crit. Ed. 34.24, suggests the interpretation tArakA+mayah i.e., full of stars. But would one call, e.g., a battle where the gods participate, (yuddhaM) devamayam? That would sound odd to my ears. I would still prefer tArakA+Amaya, and considering the description of the HarivaMza, where sun, moon and stars are obscured in a kind of cosmic upheaval, the interpretation "(a battle) in which the stars are impaired" does not seem impossible. I would - considering all the evidence that has turned up so far - nevertheless prefer the interpretation: "(a battle) destructive by the influence of (bad) stars". We may compare the English term 'disastrous' (from Greek dys-, 'bad', and astEr- 'star'), meaning approximately the same. Before the MahAbhArata battle starts, lots of inauspicious configurations of planets and stars are mentioned (Mbh. VI), and, conversely, after KRSNa/ViSNu's intervention in our HarivaMza story, the whole cosmos becomes peaceful again, which includes that: na vigrahaM grahAz cakruH (Hariv., Crit. Ed., 32.36), "the planets do no longer fight each other". Thus, the term tArakAmaya might have had a more general meaning before it normally was applied to the Skanda-TAraka and the TArA-Soma-BRhaspati myths, where single stars were personified, but still called 'Star'. One possible objection to this hypothesis is the circumstance that HarivaMza usually is considered to be later than MahAbhArata. But does this preclude the possibility that it, for once, preserves an older meaning of a word? Perhaps you find still more evidence?? Best regards, Georg v. Simson From bvi at AFN.ORG Thu Jan 15 22:50:15 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 17:50:15 -0500 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034745.23782.1888399511530710757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:38 PM 1/9/98 +0100, you wrote: >Dominique.Thillaud wrote: >> >> >Does anyone here have opinions on the location of Uttara Kuru? >> >Please give your proposed boundaries and why you think that >> >way. I'm interested mainly in theories placing it somewhere near >> >the subcontinent and not in Siberia, the North Pole or the Western >> >hemisphere. >> >> The Uttarakurus are clearly a mythical people (long life, >> happiness, &c.) and searching their exact location would be pointless,... > >This is not entirely true. In Greek and Latin sources Uttarakuru is rendered >Ottorokora (and variants). For some research I am doing, I would like to know a reference for this. >In the Geography of Ptolemy Ottorokora is a city, Ottorokoras is a river and >Ottorokorai a people, Do you have a specific reference for this as well? >all of them situated in the southern part of Serike. Serike, which is >definitely not China as is often thought, included not only extensive parts of >Central Asia including Tibet, but very probably also Assam and adjacent areas. >The Attacori of Pliny might also refer to the Uttarakuru people and are >explicitly identified by him with the Hyperboraeans. His description of their >country as a valley secluded by mountains and enjoying a beneficial climate >(like the Hyperboreans) as well as the rest of his geographical indications >seem to me to point in the direction of Assam. Thank you very much for your informative comments. And thank you in advance for the references. Chris Beetle From roheko at MSN.COM Thu Jan 15 18:47:48 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 19:47:48 +0100 Subject: Kotishila Message-ID: <161227034743.23782.11865220309998049510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you kindly write more clearly what Jain Puranas are, and what you mean with Jain Ramayana and Mahabharata I may probably help you. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Yigal Bronner An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Donnerstag, 15. Januar 1998 18:05 Betreff: Kotishila >I will be grateful for any information about the kotishila story in Jain >puranas: the story's synopsis, where it occurs, secondary literature about >it, etc. In particular I am interested in possible ties to the narratives >of Jain Ramayanas and Mahabharatas: Do Lakshaman and \ or Krsna participate >in lifting it? >Thanks, >Yigal Bronner. > From Hrid at AOL.COM Fri Jan 16 01:44:30 1998 From: Hrid at AOL.COM (Hrid) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 20:44:30 -0500 Subject: Gita-mahatmya Message-ID: <161227034747.23782.8590069810193470320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings. Could anyone enlighten me about the origin, authorship, provenance etc of the Gita-mahatmya? Thank you very much, Howard Resnick From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 15 16:51:57 1998 From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:21:57 +0530 Subject: Kotishila Message-ID: <161227034741.23782.12463659848965498763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be grateful for any information about the kotishila story in Jain puranas: the story's synopsis, where it occurs, secondary literature about it, etc. In particular I am interested in possible ties to the narratives of Jain Ramayanas and Mahabharatas: Do Lakshaman and \ or Krsna participate in lifting it? Thanks, Yigal Bronner. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jan 16 04:21:44 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 23:21:44 -0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227034752.23782.6804846853552892418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For providing valuable information on "kuyava", I thank Jan Houben, and Arlo Griffiths and especially Madhav Deshpande for providing important clarification in a private communication which is also included in this posting. The reason the name "kuyava" was interesting to me was this. In a Classical Tamil poem, a chieftain named "iruGkOvEL" is praised by one of the most famous CT poets, kapilar, as belonging to the 49th generation descendant of a king who was born in the sacrificial pit of a northern muni and who ruled in tuvarai (dvArakA) with a fort made with copper. Strangely, the name iruGkOvEL is synonymous with "kuyavan2" both meaning "potter". The Buddhist epic maNimEkalai uses "iruGkOvEL" in the sense of "potter". That is why I was wondering if what we have in the personal name "kuyava" of RV is a Dravidian name for a non-Aryan person. (Even today in Tamilnadu, "vELAr" means potters, and "vEL" is a honarary title meaning "chief" given to persons of merit. For instance, an actor was given the title "naTikavEL".) In his communication to me, Madhav Deshpande said, "Looking at the discussion so far, I believe the traditional commentators are merely guessing when it comes to the meaning/etymology of the name kuyava. On the other hand, the parallel expressions kUyavas/sUyavas are clearly derived from ku+yavas and su+yavas, where the etymology seems to be transparent. Geldner's suggestion that kuyava in VS (and Rv) perhaps is to be understood as kUya+vaac would require that there be a separate item kUya, and kuyava evidently as coming from ku/Uya+va. However, as far as know, there is no separate attestation for kuya/kUya. What is possible is that kuyava (assuming it came from a non-Sanskrit source, and was understood as the name of a demon) was subsequently understood as having a negative prefix ku, and remainder being yava. This would be somewhat similar to the original asu+ra (with a positive possessive meaning) being reinterpreted later as a+sura (with a negative association)." In light of Deshpande's comments, with some further research, I think I have found a solution to the "kuyava" etymology. Classical Tamil provides a striking parallel to the Vedic material. CT has a homonym "kuyam". It means "community of potters" as well as the "harvesting/reaping sickle". "kuya" is used as the first member of compounds as in "kuyakkuTi" meaning "hamlet of potters". "kuyam" in the sense of potters occurs in puRanAn2URu 348 as given below. veNNel ariJar taNNumai verIik kaNmaTal koNTa tIntEn2 iriyak kaL arikkkuG kuyam... (puR. 348.1-3) Translation: "As the bees get scared of the noise of drums by the harvesters of white paddy, the honey-filtering potters...". DED 1468 lists "kuyam" in the sense of "potters" along with "kO". "kO" also means "king" as shown by DED 1810. "kuyam" in the sense of harvesting/reaping sickle occurs in the following poem. "kUn2ik kuyattin2 vAynel arintu" (porunarARRuppaTai 242) Translation: "reaping the paddy with the cutting edge of the curved sickle" DED 1763 shows that "kuyam" in the sense of "sickle" is derived from the word "koy" meaning "to pluck (as flowers), cut, reap, shear(as hair), snip off, choose, select. Cognates of "koy" in the sense of "reap/harvest" occur in all the branches of Dravidian. Hence, it must be traced to proto-Dravidian. I think the VS "kuyava" in the sense of "harvest" must be derived from this. The alternation of radical "o" and "u" is well-known in Dravidian linguistics. So, the lost dialect from which this word was borrowed probably had similar alternation. (If this etymology is accepted, it may shed some light on the geographic range of "o"/"u" variation in Dravidian also.) This etymology obviates the need for an artificial insertion of "a" in front of the VS "kuyava" to arrive at a positive meaning necessitated by the context (as in the nearby "akSita"). If we have "kuyava" as a borrowed word in VS having a positive meaning, the interpretation of RV occurrence in (1.103.8 etc.) as meaning "demon causing bad harvests" becomes unsupportable. Given the Dravidian words for "potter" also meaning "king" (kO) or "chieftain" (vEL), I think the RV "kuyava", which occurs in a list of "demons" who in all probability were non-Aryan kings or chieftains, can be defensibly equated to the Dravidian word for potter/king/chieftain. I would appreciate any comments on this proposed etymology. Regards S. Palaniappan From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 16 02:11:40 1998 From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 07:41:40 +0530 Subject: Kotishila Message-ID: <161227034749.23782.15895073674191632042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If you kindly write more clearly what Jain Puranas >are, and what you mean with Jain Ramayana and >Mahabharata I may probably help you. > I am not particular about a definition of Jain Puranas--basically any version of the lives of some or all of the 63 Zalaakapurushas, including the last two sets among the nine sets of vasudevas, baladevas and prativasudevas. These sets make for the heroes of the Jain Ramayanas and Mahabharatas. In Jain Ramayanas, the set consists of Rama (Padma, Pauma) Laksmana and Ravana, whose story is told in numerous versions beginning with Vimalasuri's Paumacariya. The Mahabharata story usually centers more on the exploits of Baladeva (Balarama), Krishna and Jarasandha than on the Pandava-Kaurava conflict in texts such as the Harivamsapurana or the Pandavacarita. I am working on a poem by a Jain writer that connects both Laksmana and Krshna to the story of lifting Kotishila, and I would like to know whether or not the poet is drawing on earlier tradition, and how exactly the traditional story goes. Thanks for any tip or clue, Yigal Bronner. From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Fri Jan 16 13:02:57 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 08:02:57 -0500 Subject: References on the authenticity of mAnasollAsa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034759.23782.1738989028814515795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for references on the authorship issue of the mAnasollAsa ascribed to sureshvarAchArya. I have read the section on this work by Karl Protter in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies. All references given there are quite old (pre 1940). Any references not given in Protter's book would be greatly appreciated. Also, is there a critical edition of this text available? Thanks. Rama. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 16 08:46:16 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 08:46:16 +0000 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology In-Reply-To: <38f8b475.34bee05c@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034756.23782.16397022046158460311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:21 PM 1/15/98 EST, S. Palaniappan wrote: > Geldner's suggestion that kuyava in VS (and Rv) perhaps >is to be understood as kUya+vaac would require that there be a separate >item kUya, and kuyava evidently as coming from ku/Uya+va. However, as far >as know, there is no separate attestation for kuya/kUya. > The >alternation of radical "o" and "u" is well-known in Dravidian linguistics. So, >the lost dialect from which this word was borrowed probably had similar >alternation. (If this etymology is accepted, it may shed some light on the >geographic range of "o"/"u" variation in Dravidian also.) This etymology >obviates the need for an artificial insertion of "a" in front of the VS >"kuyava" to arrive at a positive meaning necessitated by the context (as in >the nearby "akSita"). > >S. Palaniappan If we accept kuya/kUya refers to word kOya, we have a wellknown forest tribe in South India by that name. "u" "o" alteration obviously allows this. Then the word kuyavAc also can be interpreted as their language. regards, sarma. From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jan 16 08:01:23 1998 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 09:01:23 +0100 Subject: References on the authenticity of mAnasollAsa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034766.23782.16973009932576153064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rama, See Grimes, The Naiskarmyasiddhi of Suresvara, p. xii for a bibliographical list, all of R. Balasubramanian's books on Suresvara's works, and The Dakshinamurti Stotra, text and trans by Alladi Mahadeva Sastry of Samata Books, Madras.There is also a book in the Univ of Madras Philosophy library which contains one of the longer descriptions I have seen. However, I am sorry to say that I no longer recall the title of the book. It was put out by the Kancipuram Math some time in the 1960's or early 70's John >I am looking for references on the authorship issue of the mAnasollAsa >ascribed to sureshvarAchArya. I have read the section on this work by >Karl Protter in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies. All >references given there are quite old (pre 1940). Any references not >given in Protter's book would be greatly appreciated. Also, is there a >critical edition of this text available? Thanks. > >Rama. From roheko at MSN.COM Fri Jan 16 08:23:45 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 09:23:45 +0100 Subject: Kotishila Message-ID: <161227034754.23782.5845378421395984798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I work now for decades (pardon about 1 decade) about the Prakrit literature of the Jains that follows on the canonical scripts, e. g. mainly the still unpublished commentaries on the Avashyakas, which despite of the title delivers a complete picture of the Jain religious system in post-canonical time. As you propably know, this literature suggests to present all the stuff which is still missing for a complete description of the Jain religion. Apart of the religious themes this sources record a huge amount of tales and illustration, (one part about the namaskara-prayer includes more then 100 illustrations, which I published critically on my Ph D - beside a translation). Today we can already speak definitly: Hemacandras 63carita is a poetic Sanskrit work that is based on this source, a great part of the tales recorded in 63carita is already known in the early Prakrit version of these commentaries. I did never search for Jain tales about Krisna. Laksmana etc, but I also never came across any story which mentioned this names. Just the last week I took the first time a view to the Harivamsapurana, here there seems to be the stories you are looking for and I suppose that you will find some early parts of the stories of the Harivamsapurana in the Vasudevahindi. There is an absolut important book for you about the Harivamsapurana from Ludwig Alsdorf, Harivamsapurana, Alt- und Neu-Indische Studien, 5 (1936) - edited at the University of Hamburg. While this book is written in German you may find some english references to this book in the english translation of the Vasudevahindi: Ch. Jain, The Vasudevahindi, L. D. Series (Ahmedabad, 1977) from the same author: Life in Ancient India as depicted in the Jaina canon, Delhi, 1984. See Further: Abhidhanarajendra and the Agamic Index Prakrit Proper Names. Good Luck -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Yigal Bronner An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Freitag, 16. Januar 1998 03:06 Betreff: Re: Kotishila >>If you kindly write more clearly what Jain Puranas >>are, and what you mean with Jain Ramayana and >>Mahabharata I may probably help you. >> >I am not particular about a definition of Jain Puranas--basically any >version of the lives of some or all of the 63 Zalaakapurushas, including >the last two sets among the nine sets of vasudevas, baladevas and >prativasudevas. These sets make for the heroes of the Jain Ramayanas and >Mahabharatas. In Jain Ramayanas, the set consists of Rama (Padma, Pauma) >Laksmana and Ravana, whose story is told in numerous versions beginning >with Vimalasuri's Paumacariya. The Mahabharata story usually centers more >on the exploits of Baladeva (Balarama), Krishna and Jarasandha than on the >Pandava-Kaurava conflict in texts such as the Harivamsapurana or the >Pandavacarita. >I am working on a poem by a Jain writer that connects both Laksmana and >Krshna to the story of lifting Kotishila, and I would like to know whether >or not the poet is drawing on earlier tradition, and how exactly the >traditional story goes. >Thanks for any tip or clue, >Yigal Bronner. > From DUBINSE at DUVM.OCS.DREXEL.EDU Fri Jan 16 15:14:36 1998 From: DUBINSE at DUVM.OCS.DREXEL.EDU (Stephen Dubin) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 10:14:36 -0500 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034769.23782.8568001620793947346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please help me to settle a question. Is there a translation of the Gita into Yiddish? Is it readily available? Thanks for help and patience with frivolous inquiry. +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+ | Stephen Dubin VMD PhD | | Biomedical Engineering and Science Institute | | Drexel University, Philadelphia PA 19104 | | Phone: 215-895-2219 Fax: 215-895-4983 | | Email: dubinse at duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | | http://biomed6.coe.drexel.edu/faculty_profiles/dubin.html | | Guerir quelquefois, Soulager souvent, Consoler toujours | +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+ From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE Fri Jan 16 13:37:41 1998 From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 14:37:41 +0100 Subject: "Indus Script" , "Aryan Invasion Theory" and "horse(s) in the Indus Valley" In-Reply-To: <199801150926.KAA09932@online.no> Message-ID: <161227034761.23782.11776759298509023122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Below please find additions to recently stated references re above subjects: 1. "Indus Script" Rajaram, N.S.: Jha's decipherment of the Indus Script: a summary; transcript of talk delivered at the Mythic Society, Bangalore Jan. 9, 1997 Internet: Wallia C.J.S. http://www.indiastar.com/jha.htm The Hindu Nov. 4, 1997: Indus script can now be read (interview with Rajaram) 2. "Aryan Invasion Theory" Rajaram, N.S.: The Politics of History; Aryan invasion theory and the subversion of scholarship, New Dehli 1995 Rajaram, N.S. and Frawley, David: Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization, Second revised and enlarged edition, New Dehli 1997 Internet: Agrawal, Dinesh: The Demise of Aryan Invasion/Race Theory: http://www.cs.ac.uk/~pateld/aryan/_dir/vias_home/demise.html Mahajan, Jaynant: The Myth of Aryan Invasion of India: http://zeta.cs.adfa.oz.au/Spirit/Veda/myth-of-invasion.html Kalyanaraman, S.: Sarasvati-Sindhu civilization (c.3000 B.C.) http:www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indus.htm Wallia, C.J.S.: Ancient India in New Light: http://www.indiastar.com/ancient.htm Kak, Subhash: On the Aryan Invasion Theory: http://vedanet.com...kak_aryan_invasion.html 3. "horse(s) in the Indus Valley" Sethna, K.D.: The Problem of Aryan Origins; From an Indian point of view, New Dehli 1992 pp 278-279 Rajaram & Frawley 1997 (quoted above): pp 89-90, 125, 206, 224-225 Plate XCV 443, said to be from c. 1800 B.C., shows an entire horse Regards Raoul Martens From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Jan 16 14:07:49 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 15:07:49 +0100 Subject: "Indus Script" , "Aryan Invasion Theory" and "horse(s) in the Indus Valley" Message-ID: <161227034764.23782.15297951197963241885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:37 16.01.98 +0100, you wrote: >Below please find additions to recently stated references re above subjects: Hjertens takk, M?rtens! Alt dette er meget nyttig for meg. Vennlig hilsen Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Fri Jan 16 15:23:18 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 16:23:18 +0100 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034771.23782.11997184433219554250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chris Beetle wrote: > At 02:38 PM 1/9/98 +0100, you wrote: > >This is not entirely true. In Greek and Latin sources Uttarakuru is > rendered >Ottorokora (and variants). > > For some research I am doing, I would like to know a reference for this. > > >In the Geography of Ptolemy Ottorokora is a city, Ottorokoras is a river and > >Ottorokorai a people, > > Do you have a specific reference for this as well? Ottorokora etc.: Ptolemaeus, Geographia 6.16.2-3,5,8 (the only good edition of the 6th book of Ptolemy is that of Ronca 1971); Opurocorra: Ammianus Marcellinus, Res gestae 23.6.64; Ottorogora(e): Paulus Orosius, Historiae adversum paganos 1.2.14 and 1.2.44-45; Torgoris: Anonymus Ravennatis, Cosmographia 2.3 Attacori: Plinius, Naturalis historia 6.55; Solinus, Collectanea rerum memorabilium 51.1; Martianus Capella, De nuptiis philologiae et mercurii 6.693. Regards, Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent, Belgium From agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jan 16 22:08:49 1998 From: agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 17:08:49 -0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology In-Reply-To: <38f8b475.34bee05c@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034778.23782.5938211753596430247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The report on kuyava sounds very interesting to me. Could you explain at all why the CT word for potter apparently also means 'chieftain'. Do you think the dravidian vowel alternation may have anything to do with the u/U alternation within vedic... Arlo Griffiths From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sat Jan 17 01:36:24 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 19:36:24 -0600 Subject: Indian Culture and Society Free Course:help Message-ID: <161227034780.23782.15181303968099189962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Caixeiro, We often have to do such courses in the US. I can share only from my own experience. If you care this was my approach in one of the instances I faced. First I decided what the main topics had to be. Say I chose ten topics and I had ten weeks for a term. (I am simplifying this a bit.) Then I decided on the order of the topics: history of South Asia, religions (obviously you can use more than one week or time segment if you want to cover Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, and Islamic traditions), literatures, languages (including demography, geography), art and architecture (which could include paleography), political ideas, society and so forth. I think of the students as of an intelligent and educated audience, but unfamiliar with subjects on India. As an example for an inspiration I would recommend the little book of lectures of A.L.Basham, called THE ORIGINS AND DEVELOPMENT OF CLASSICAL HINDUISM, Oxford University Press 1992. Once I had a rough outline of my syllabus, I would ask myself what is it I would like the students to know after they finished the course. I came up with the Bhagavadgita (I am sure that there must be translations into Portugese, besides the students probably also read other European languages, so there certainly will be some translation available in the library.)Or any of the epics, whether from the Sanskrit or Tamil; or M.K. Gandhi's MY EXPERIMENTS WITH TRUTH. If you have a chance to obtain films or videos on some of the aspects that you will be teaching, that is always helpful, since you'll be talking about a world beyond the students' imagination. If you would like to pursue this further you can write to me directly on my email address: eclear at uts.cc.utexas.edu Good luck. Edeltraud Harzer Clear Asian Studies Univ. of Texas Austin, Texas, USA >Dear Collegues > >I was asked to teach a free Course on Indian Society and Culture to >students from a big variety of courses: Philosophy, Linguistics, >Anthropology,History, etc.The course is open to all the students of the >University. Before I know wich are the backgroud of my students I was asked >to write a previous programme. My problem is how to elaborate a programme >for students of such a diverse background and without any knowledge about >indian cultura. The ignorance about India in Portugal is generalised. I >have already teached a couse on Indian Cultura and Society to students of >Antropology wich was easear for me as I am an antropologist though with a >very strong componente of Indology, knowledge of Sanskrit , hindi, Indian >liteature, philosophy and history. >By chance any of you ever had to teach such a kind of course to students >with various educational background? Could someone give me some sugestions >on the content of the progrmma and how to start? I would like to give a >general and integrated knowledge of Indian cultura, its past and relation >to the present culture and society in order to motivate students to work on >Indian matters. > > >Thanks for help >and patience with frivolous inquiry. > >Mariana Caixeiro >e-mail:mcc.bissau at sol.gtelecom.gw > From mcc.bissau at SOL.GTELECOM.GW Fri Jan 16 19:57:54 1998 From: mcc.bissau at SOL.GTELECOM.GW (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 19:57:54 +0000 Subject: Indian Culture and Society Free Course:help Message-ID: <161227034773.23782.4993012015105888331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Collegues I was asked to teach a free Course on Indian Society and Culture to students from a big variety of courses: Philosophy, Linguistics, Anthropology,History, etc.The course is open to all the students of the University. Before I know wich are the backgroud of my students I was asked to write a previous programme. My problem is how to elaborate a programme for students of such a diverse background and without any knowledge about indian cultura. The ignorance about India in Portugal is generalised. I have already teached a couse on Indian Cultura and Society to students of Antropology wich was easear for me as I am an antropologist though with a very strong componente of Indology, knowledge of Sanskrit , hindi, Indian liteature, philosophy and history. By chance any of you ever had to teach such a kind of course to students with various educational background? Could someone give me some sugestions on the content of the progrmma and how to start? I would like to give a general and integrated knowledge of Indian cultura, its past and relation to the present culture and society in order to motivate students to work on Indian matters. Thanks for help and patience with frivolous inquiry. Mariana Caixeiro e-mail:mcc.bissau at sol.gtelecom.gw From roheko at MSN.COM Fri Jan 16 21:24:40 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 22:24:40 +0100 Subject: Indian Culture and Society Free Course:help Message-ID: <161227034776.23782.6871453081230354524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I sent you some very helpful links 1 a first class bibliography for Classical Indology from the University of Heidelberg in Germany 2 the curriculum for the introduction in Buddhism from the University of Tuebingen in Germany (German/English) so-called T?pfli 3 also from Tuebingen: Introduction into the exegis of Sanskrittexts 4 -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Mariana Caixeiro An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Freitag, 16. Januar 1998 21:07 Betreff: Indian Culture and Society Free Course:help >Dear Collegues > >I was asked to teach a free Course on Indian Society and Culture to >students from a big variety of courses: Philosophy, Linguistics, >Anthropology,History, etc.The course is open to all the students of the >University. Before I know wich are the backgroud of my students I was asked >to write a previous programme. My problem is how to elaborate a programme >for students of such a diverse background and without any knowledge about >indian cultura. The ignorance about India in Portugal is generalised. I >have already teached a couse on Indian Cultura and Society to students of >Antropology wich was easear for me as I am an antropologist though with a >very strong componente of Indology, knowledge of Sanskrit , hindi, Indian >liteature, philosophy and history. >By chance any of you ever had to teach such a kind of course to students >with various educational background? Could someone give me some sugestions >on the content of the progrmma and how to start? I would like to give a >general and integrated knowledge of Indian cultura, its past and relation >to the present culture and society in order to motivate students to work on >Indian matters. > > >Thanks for help >and patience with frivolous inquiry. > >Mariana Caixeiro >e-mail:mcc.bissau at sol.gtelecom.gw > begin 666 Klassische Indologie--Bibliographie Buddhismus.url M6TEN=&5R;F5T4VAO While I was searching for something else in the Indology archive, I came across Madhav Deshpande's translation of Mahishasuramardinistotra in May 1994. As I read it, I noticed the following interesting passage. #9 jaya jaya japyajaye jayashabda parastutitatatpara vishvanute || jhaNa jhaNa jhinjhimijhinkritanoopura sinjitamohita bhootapate || natita nataardhanatiinatanaayaka naatitanaatyasugaanarate || jaya jaya he ... || || be victorious! be victorious! whose victory should be sung, praised by the whole universe ready to sing the praise extolling her victory || who attracted the attention of shiva by twinkling of bells making various sounds of dancing || who delights in beautiful singing and in dance-drama presented by a leading dancer acting out the role of an actress with half of his body || The dance mentioned here is called "koTukoTTi" in Tamil. It was supposed to have been performed by ziva as ardhanArIzvara at the time he destroyed the three forts. It is mentioned in the late CT work kalittokai and the epic cilappatikAram. It is one of the famous 11 dances mentioned in cilappatikAram. In fact, in cilappatikAram 28.67-77, the performance of such a dance in the presence of the cEra king by a dancer by name 'kUttaccAkkaiyan" is described. Apparently, the dancer was trained to move only one part of the body and the associated ornaments. Considering the almost jati-like flow of the text, I wonder if it was really created for a dance performance. Do we have any certainty about the authorship? Could it have been an somebody other than zankara? Regards S. Palaniappan From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 17 08:30:28 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 00:30:28 -0800 Subject: Naciketas-2 Message-ID: <161227034785.23782.18288958360819195254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shalom to all, Last week I sent a message to the list, telling about my work on the above subject. At this stage of my work, I am mostly interested in information about other people who are engaged now in work on Naciketas, or have been recently working on the subject. furthermore, I would like to get in touch with Y.K. Wadhwani, who wrote the following articles: Wadhwani, Y.K. - "A Semantic Study of the Term 'Naciketas'." Journal of the University of Poona. Humanistic Section, No. 37, 1972, pp. 33-36 - " - "Implications of the Vedic Term Nacikets." Vishveshvarananda Indological Journal. No. 11, 1973, pp. 19-23 Thanks in advance for your help. Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Jan 17 12:30:54 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 07:30:54 -0500 Subject: Naciketas-2 In-Reply-To: <19980117083029.23127.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227034789.23782.16026848329259868751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I am not mistaken, Dr. Yashodhara Wadhwani works in the Sanskrit Dictionary department of the Deccan College, Pune 411 006, Maharashtra, India. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Amos Nevo wrote: > Shalom to all, > > Last week I sent a message to the list, telling about my work on the > above subject. > At this stage of my work, I am mostly interested in information about > other people who are engaged now in work on Naciketas, or have been > recently working on the subject. > > furthermore, I would like to get in touch with Y.K. Wadhwani, who wrote > the following articles: > Wadhwani, Y.K. - "A Semantic Study of the Term 'Naciketas'." > Journal of the University of Poona. > Humanistic Section, No. 37, 1972, pp. 33-36 > - " - "Implications of the Vedic Term Nacikets." > Vishveshvarananda Indological Journal. No. 11, 1973, > pp. 19-23 > Thanks in advance for your help. > > > Amos Nevo > 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem > 96746 > ISRAEL > fAX. 972 2 6419215 > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sat Jan 17 15:51:52 1998 From: jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (jp_stephens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 10:51:52 -0500 Subject: Deciphering the Indus valley script Message-ID: <161227034793.23782.7994064647321392493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may find some good links at: http://www.harappa.com/har/harres031.html Sujatha From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Jan 17 17:25:38 1998 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 12:25:38 -0500 Subject: Draft scheme 2.01 on the Web Message-ID: <161227034794.23782.1974172362863903284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Tables for the draft Indic transliteration scheme 2.01are now also available in a plain text file, without of course showing the forms of the Indic script characters. The URL is the same: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd201a.htm Tony Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 17 09:00:13 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 14:00:13 +0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227034787.23782.7335723373446016759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The alternation of i/e and u/o is a Proto-South Dravidian rule, which is as follows. Proto-Dravidian had all the four vowels i,e,u,o in the root syllable of (C)VC type. In Proto-South Dravidian they remained as such when high vowels or zero followed in the next syllable, i.e. (C)VC-i/u/0; but when a lowel -a followed i,u merged with e,o; i.e.PD*(C)i/eC-a >PSD*(C)e/oC-a- (rule of vowel harmony or umlaut). Then, Early Tamil (which included Malayalam) changed these sequences to i,u (rule of dissimilation)throughout. The rest of the Southern languages preserved PSD merged state(Kannada, Kodagu, Toda, Kota, Irula, Tulu; Telugu also joins this group in this phenomenon). Again, Old Tamil (C)i,uC-a- later became (C)e,oC-a in Medieval and modern Tamil. (I published an article on this problem in Languaage 1958 and my solution has been accepted by all Dravidian scholars). I am not expressing an opinion on kuyawa. I am not convinced that it has a Dravidian origin. Also note there is a group of South-Central Dravidian languages called Ku:i-Ku:vi-Ku:bi. PD *ku: means 'to call', a homophonous *ku: 'hill'. ko:'king, god'. The potter word is only confined to Tamil and does not have PD etymolgy. I do not think that 'potter' and 'chieftain, king' words are related. Bh.Krishnmurti. At 17:08 16/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >The report on kuyava sounds very interesting to me. Could you explain at >all why the CT word for potter apparently also means 'chieftain'. > Do you think the dravidian vowel alternation may have anything to >do with the u/U alternation within vedic... > >Arlo Griffiths > > Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: Note:Please note what follows hd is digit 1 and not letter l. In vsnl the final character is letter l and not digit 1. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 17 15:02:44 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 20:02:44 +0500 Subject: etymoogy of kuyava- Message-ID: <161227034791.23782.3238820319960502246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my posting this morning there was a typo. Proto-Dravidian *(C)i/uC-a became Proto-South Dravidian *(C)e/oC-a. I wrongly typed *(C)i/eC-a for the former. Please correct it. The Tamil word for potter is reconstructable to *kucawa in Proto-South Dravidian. Old Tamil had both kucavan and kuyavan.See DEDR (1984) entry 1762 The -c- form was older as in the case of PD*picar, PSD *pecar, Old Kannada pesaru 'name', Ta. peyar, pe:r, Telugu pe:ru; Pkt. sa:siram (< Skt. sahasra-), Ta. a:yiram, etc. Assuming that all non-SD languages have lost the potter form, at the time of borrowing from Dravidian during the Vedic period, the form should have been *kucawa[kusawa].. and not *kuyawa. If RV kuya-va:k means mrdhrawa:k 'a person speaking unclear language', a better Dravidian etymology would be *ku:y+awan_tu --> kuyawan_tu 'a man who babbles, crows, cries, etc.' *ku:(y) occurs in all soubroups of Dravidian (DEDR 1868; Skt. ku:jita- is said to have been derived from Dravidian). DEDR 2177 *ko:'king, god', DEDR 2178 ko:(y) 'mountain' (~ku:y) are different etymologies. I hope this will clarify the questions raised. Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: Note:Please note what follows hd is digit 1 and not letter l. In vsnl the final character is letter l and not digit 1. From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 18 04:12:45 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 22:12:45 -0600 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034796.23782.17573648338351960464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to me that linguists get all their "solutions" in a very democratic manner. Consensus seems to be the methodology to get to "solutions". One person suggests a possible way a word could have changed and then the others come up with their own versions and then the most acceptable version is considered the "solution". In mathematics - a initial 'assumption' is allowed, but again at the end it has to be shown that no other 'assumption' would have been valid. "Linguistis" seems to have this fatal flaw in that-it does not show that the initial assumption is the only valid possibility and nothing else is possible. So, linguists can add layers and layers of assumption and prove whatever they want. IMHO, researchers tend to get bogged down in linguistic evidence, because it is the most accessible thing (compared to other methods like archeology) to do. All you need are the original sources, a few cups of coffee and a fertile imagination. The most potent combination, would be a 'social scientist' and a 'linguist' - put the two togethar in a room and one can expect the solution all the problems in the world - and they will be absolutely sure of it too. It boggles my mind to see seemingly rational people deriving a proto language existing thousands of years before and hundreds of generations ago spread out over great land areas and through millions of people, based on assumptions,and then adding more assumptions to it - How in the world can one scientifically prove these assumptions ?? How can one be so confident of assumptions - without logically proving that it is the only possibility ??. Linguists have a ingenious solution - they just call these initial assumptions as "rules" - then there is no necessity for any scientific proof, only consensus from fellow researchers is necessary. When one reads Seidenbergs papers, one cannot but be impressed by the mathematical thoroughness with which he derives his conclusions. Linguists on the other hand tend to 'pick' and 'choose' options as and when it suits their pet theories. Subrahmanya From Vaidix at AOL.COM Sun Jan 18 09:49:49 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 04:49:49 -0500 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034802.23782.8353596014134754749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya, > It seems to me that linguists get all their "solutions" in > a very democratic manner. Consensus seems to be the > methodology to get to "solutions". One person suggests > a possible way a word could have changed and then the others come up with > their own versions and then the most acceptable version is considered the > "solution". Can you use mathematics to solve a real world problem such as "What is the best college for my son to do his masters?" You can only do what the linguists do. Not a bit different. What is the source of your data? Is there a formula to decide the "best college"? If so who would give you data to prove that formula? Neighbors? internet? > In mathematics - a initial 'assumption' is allowed, but again at > the end it has to be shown that no other 'assumption' would have > been valid. > "Linguistis" seems to have this fatal flaw in that-it > does not show that the initial assumption is the only valid possibility > and nothing else is possible. So, linguists > can add layers and layers of assumption and prove whatever they want. Whatever mathematics you mention in your letter is traditional mathematics based on crisp set theory. Now it is all outdated with the advent of fuzzy set theory in 1960s. The latter works precisely like a linguist. Crisp set theory is a subset of fuzzy set theory by definition and design. It is just unfortunate that we do not have any linguists who know fuzzy set theory. Again, mathematically speaking, how is "an initial assumption" more acceptable to you than a "subsequent assumption"? A "subsequent assumption" simply means you started on with your proof without considering all data. Again, isn't it a fact that allowing "subsequent assumptions" starts a new branch of mathematics? > IMHO, researchers tend to get bogged down in linguistic evidence, because > it is the most accessible thing (compared to other methods > like archeology) to do. All you need are the original sources, a few cups > of coffee and a fertile imagination. Is linguistic evidence "the most accessible thing"? The answer is yes or no. If we have all the lingustic evidence of the origin of a language say English, a book on that language would look like a book on calculus. So the answer is no. Precisely for the reason that we do not have enough evidence, any new evidence, however silly, starts a new chain of thoughts leading to excitement. So the answer is yes. Socialogically, "Just ask somebody who might know" is a good bet. > The most potent combination, would be a 'social scientist' and a > 'linguist' - put the two togethar in a room and one can expect the > solution all the problems in the world - and they will be absolutely > sure of it too. Good chance it may work just fine! You never know. > It boggles my mind to see seemingly rational > people deriving a proto language existing thousands of years before and > hundreds of generations ago spread out > over great land areas and through millions of people, based on > assumptions,and then adding more assumptions to it - It really boggles my mind, and I am really concerned about it, that when a scientist studies genetic patterns of dead skeletons in various parts of the world and declares for example, that "African genes are the oldest" everybody nods in agreement and the new theory gets into popular usage, even though most people are not aware of the actual proof. But at the same we ridicule a linguist who does a similar job based on the available grammar structures in different languages. It is not fair to criticize linguists for not being mathematical enough. On the contrary, let me warn you, you are waking up a sleeping tiger! When lingiusts take up mathematics, even mathematics can not win! What the linguists have been saying for ages, and we never get the message, is that the syllables and words we use today are encapsulated knowledge of earlier civilizations, and the same holds for languages of the future. > How in the world can one scientifically prove these assumptions ?? That is whole crux of the need for fuzzy set theory. Fuzzy set theory is needed precisely because it is not practical to prove those assumptions. If I am in the middle of the road, and I see a speeding vehicle, how do I escape? If I depend on science and mathematics I would be dead before I even start collecting the data. The mind does not measure speed and distance in meters and seconds, it uses fuzzy "rule-sets" to assess the variables involved into "vague" terms like "fast", "somewhat far" and so on, decides on clear instructions for the body, refuzzifies the instructions and transmits to body organs to act such as "speed up a little a bit" or "step back a little". > How can one be so confident of assumptions - without logically > proving that it is the only possibility ??. > Linguists have a ingenious solution - they just call these initial > assumptions as "rules" - then there is no necessity for any scientific > proof, only consensus from fellow researchers is necessary. The question on "rules" is answered above. Ofcourse no linguist claims a "final" solution, but at present it is the best possible solution and no one can deny it without contributing to the subject in a positive way. Any denial with proof gets included in the subject, and a denial without proof will be ignored. As for conjectures, even mathematics has them! > When one reads Seidenbergs papers, one cannot but be impressed by the > mathematical thoroughness with which he derives his conclusions. > Linguists on the other hand tend to 'pick' and 'choose' options as and > when it suits their pet theories. I have no idea of Seidenbergs papers, but there are Seidenbergs who work on maths, computer science and linguistics together as one subject. Check the internet. More Seidenbergs in the making? Bhadraiah Mallampalli From wieson at RAINBOW.CH Sun Jan 18 09:33:16 1998 From: wieson at RAINBOW.CH (wieson) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 10:33:16 +0100 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034800.23782.1609589870627411138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Strange, this is just the type of polemics I recently heard from a linguist about Indologists! By the way, one CAN prove - in as far as anything in the humanities is "provable" - a linguistic theory in as far as one makes a hypothesis and TESTS it. That is, many predictions, such as the laryngeal theory, were made and thought through long before the data for Hittite were found, which fit in very well with the theory. And one can base a hypothesis on data in one area of grammar and find that it also fits in with data in another. The theory of transitivity or the concept of grammatical relations are just two areas where one can see different parts of the grammar acting in - dare I say it - predictable ways. We linguists don't just sit around drinking coffee and making up scientific fairy tales. And concensus is just as important - but not more so - here as in other fields. If this message was in response to a discussion (which I seem to have missed) on an etymology, then I must add that Indo-European linguistics - and historical linguistics in general - MOST CERTAINLY are provable, if there's any substance behind them. This holds true for 'sound laws' as well as for semantics and the entire process of grammaticalization, as we see the same types of change over and over - this often tells us right at the beginning of our research what "solutions" will undoubtedly lead us in the wrong direction (thereby saving us a lot of "consensus-building"). May I ask what was the reason for this sudden attack on linguistics? John Peterson ---------- > Von: Sn. Subrahmanya > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Betreff: Linguists > Datum: Sonntag, 18. Januar 1998 05:12 > > It seems to me that linguists get all their "solutions" in > a very democratic manner. Consensus seems to be the > methodology to get to "solutions". One person suggests > a possible way a word could have changed and then the others come up with > their own versions and then the most acceptable version is considered the > "solution". > In mathematics - a initial 'assumption' is allowed, but again at > the end it has to be shown that no other 'assumption' would have > been valid. > "Linguistis" seems to have this fatal flaw in that-it > does not show that the initial assumption is the only valid possibility > and nothing else is possible. So, linguists > can add layers and layers of assumption and prove whatever they want. > > IMHO, researchers tend to get bogged down in linguistic evidence, because > it is the most accessible thing (compared to other methods > like archeology) to do. All you need are the original sources, a few cups > of coffee and a fertile imagination. > > The most potent combination, would be a 'social scientist' and a > 'linguist' - put the two togethar in a room and one can expect the > solution all the problems in the world - and they will be absolutely > sure of it too. > > It boggles my mind to see seemingly rational > people deriving a proto language existing thousands of years before and > hundreds of generations ago spread out > over great land areas and through millions of people, based on > assumptions,and then adding more assumptions to it - > How in the world can one scientifically prove these assumptions ?? > How can one be so confident of assumptions - without logically > proving that it is the only possibility ??. > Linguists have a ingenious solution - they just call these initial > assumptions as "rules" - then there is no necessity for any scientific > proof, only consensus from fellow researchers is necessary. > > When one reads Seidenbergs papers, one cannot but be impressed by the > mathematical thoroughness with which he derives his conclusions. > Linguists on the other hand tend to 'pick' and 'choose' options as and > when it suits their pet theories. > > Subrahmanya From umadevi at SFO.COM Sun Jan 18 19:47:43 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 11:47:43 -0800 Subject: Telegu Inscription Message-ID: <161227034814.23782.15885106500852221780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings to All You Linguists Out There: I am an art historian from U.C.L.A., in the throes of finishing my dissertation on heroic self-sacrifice imagery. I am working on hero stones, sculptures and paintings from many different regions of India. I read and speak Hindi, but am woefully ignorant of other Indian languages! I have found a group of 12th c. stones from the Nalgonda area (near Hyderabad) depicting self-oblation (also mentioned by P.A. Sreenivasachar in an article from the A.P. Arch Series, no 15, 1963, if you want to delve into this a bit). A few of the stones have Telegu inscriptions. I have carefully photographed the inscriptional sections of the stones and now am in search of someone who might be interested in helping with the translation of the inscription. Is there some person out there who might be interested in this little project? Many Thanks to all you aural people for thinking visually for a few moments! Mary Storm From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jan 18 20:21:14 1998 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 12:21:14 -0800 Subject: Linguists In-Reply-To: <199801180936.KAA11096@wes2.limmat.ch> Message-ID: <161227034817.23782.9967146012998983243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> wieson wrote: >many predictions, such as the laryngeal theory, were >made and thought through long before the data for Hittite were found, which >fit in very well with the theory. I am intrigued, too. If I may ask, do you see Saussure's coefficients sonantiques as exactly the same thing as what came to be labeled "the laryngeal theory"? Were Saussure, Moller, Cuny, Kurylowicz, Benveniste talking about exactly the same thing in your opinion? Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Jan 18 11:56:10 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 12:56:10 +0100 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034804.23782.3357265273994170303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >When one reads Seidenbergs papers, one cannot but be impressed by the >mathematical thoroughness with which he derives his conclusions. >Linguists on the other hand tend to 'pick' and 'choose' options as and >when it suits their pet theories. Dear Subrahmanya, would you happen to have any bibliographic references to the papers you are referring to? Anyway, thank you for an interesting attack on "my camp". I think you speak for a lot of people in the sciences, and I think people in the humanities are reaping the reward of years of neglected communication with people outside their field. If such attacts can start a fresh round of communication, nothing would be better. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 18 22:15:48 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 14:15:48 -0800 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034815.23782.14367811416613210094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sn Subrahmanya writes: >In mathematics - a initial 'assumption' is allowed, but again at >the end it has to be shown that no other 'assumption' would have >been valid. >"Linguistis" seems to have this fatal flaw in that-it >does not show that the initial assumption is the only valid possibility >and nothing else is possible. So, linguists >can add layers and layers of assumption and prove whatever they want. Dear MR Subrahmanya, your argument seems to be going the way in which many discussions among our beloved expatriate Indians go-A certain standard is introduced for what ever reason( in many cases, convenience) by a person and all judgements are made according to this standard, irrespective of whether the standard holds or not. For example, you have the classical "Engineers vs Doctors" debate. Engineers hold themselves to be superior to "doctors" because their field is "more analytical" i.e. there is moremathematics making the unverified assumption i.e. is mathematics the one and only analytical tool? Is that always the *best* tool? Of course, if you explain to them that using their own logic, mathematicians are superior to engineers( "mathematics" is more *mathematical* than engineering) then you will get the benefit of their combined dirty looks.(If dirty looks could kill, my friend, we'd be dead a thousand times over:-) Substitute Engineering in this paragraph by "Archeology" and Medicine by "Linguistics" and you can see the validity of the theory. (BTW, I myself am an engineer, and have degrees in two different engineering subjects, so there is no reason for me to envy/despise engineers) What makes you think that "archeology" is such a powerful tool? In the hands of the wrong person, anything can be misused..as an example, please read the writings of Shri P.N.Oak who always tells us that a mosque is essentially a stupa to which minarets have been added and the dome has been modified..this ostensibly appears logical and is chronological (Buddhism precedes ISlam) ; but show it to any trained archeologist or architecht and they will tell you ten different reasons why this couldn't have been true. > >It boggles my mind to see seemingly rational >people deriving a proto language existing thousands of years before and >hundreds of generations ago spread out >over great land areas and through millions of people, based on >assumptions,and then adding more assumptions to it - >How in the world can one scientifically prove these assumptions ?? >How can one be so confident of assumptions - without logically >proving that it is the only possibility ??. Well, since the word "assumption" seems to be bothering you so much, would it be OK if we called the same stuff "axioms" a la Euclid?:-) (Please try to prove any "axiom" as opposed to a theorem) > >When one reads Seidenbergs papers, one cannot but be impressed by the >mathematical thoroughness with which he derives his conclusions. ------------------------- I am not impressed by this "mathematical thoroughness"( an engineering /sciences concept, not true of liberal arts) thing...there are fields that can be described as mathematical, there are others that aren't, so you can't get mathematical in linguistics or history..In the 18th century, the French atheist philosopher Denis Diderot visited Russia , the Czar decided that he had to be defeated in a debate and appealed to his courtiers in coming up with an ingenuous solution.( Diderot was reputed to be undefeated in convetional debate). Euler( the mathematician) *proved* Denis Diderot wrong by introducing mathematical proof; mathematics was something that Diderot knew nothing about. Euler said " for all a>0,b>0, (ax+b)**n= m, therefore God exists..prove me wrong if you can..." . If you now try to pass off "Euler's proof " as being mathematical, you know what reaction you will be eliciting Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sun Jan 18 14:32:48 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 15:32:48 +0100 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034806.23782.6589795446350220297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin wrote: >I think you speak for a lot of people in the sciences... No he doesn't. I am supposedly "in the sciences" and he certainly doesn't speak for me. And who has ever counted them that they formed a majority? Incidentally those people in the sciences who hold such views I've run into are not necessarily in my experience the best scientists either. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Jan 18 15:03:02 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 16:03:02 +0100 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034808.23782.14159668792794665006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. Baltuch wrote: >>I think you speak for a lot of people in the sciences... > >No he doesn't. I am supposedly "in the sciences" and he >certainly doesn't speak for me. And who has ever counted >them that they formed a majority? I am not so sure. Subramania is not the only person with a scientific background to criticize the humanities. We should also remember the explosive debate in the fifties set off by P. C. Snow when he wrote about the "two cultures". The "two cultures", in my opinion, still exist, with a tragic lack of mutual communication. I would also like to point out that people in the humanities have lost a considerable amount of influence during the last 100 years, whereas the influence exerted by people in the sciences and technology has increased, partly dramatically. But I am glad, Jacob, that you are not one of our detractors! And by the way: I did not say that "they" formed a majority! Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP Sun Jan 18 08:22:48 1998 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 17:22:48 +0900 Subject: Personal web link collection Message-ID: <161227034798.23782.1641634874312790314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I have added yesterday a new page to my web site: a "Personal collection of links" page, where I gather about a hundred urls of Internet resources related to the Buddhist studies or other fields of my interests (each one with a brief description). Here is the url: http://www.bekkoame.or.jp/~n-iyanag/links.html Here are the main headings of this page: Search Engines/Miscellanea Asian Studies in general Buddhism Indology Sinology Japanology Books, Libraries, Bookstores Software/Computer Others Most of these urls have been reported and discussed in our electronic discussion group "Paso-kon Toohoo-kenkyuu" (Personal Computer and Asian Humanity Studies) in the Japanes commercial BBS (http://www.niftyserve.or.jp/) (GO command: FJAMEA MES 11), by some of the members of the group or by myself. In this sense, this page is the result of collaboration of many members of our group. I am most grateful for all goodwill of our members. There are many urls of Japanese interesting sites that are probably not very well known in the U.S. or other parts of the world. Although this page is "under construction", I hope that it can be useful for some of the members of this mailing list. And thank you in advance for any feedback or suggestions. Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan P.S. I posted the same message to Buddha-L list. I am sorry for those who received this twice... From vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 18 23:54:14 1998 From: vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM (Martin Epstein) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 18:54:14 -0500 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227034819.23782.2803801479644272083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know who the current Shankaracarya of the North is and any information about him i.e. who his Guru was, who his predecessor was and any other info around that. I heard there was some controversy around the current seat. Thank you for your help. Martin Hello Just a note to say "Hello". Your message here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 19 00:58:25 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 18:58:25 -0600 Subject: linguistic Message-ID: <161227034822.23782.2764109594437243522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Dear Subrahmanya, >>would you happen to have any bibliographic references to the >>papers you are referring to? Dear Dr. Fosse: As for Seidenbergs papers they are: The Ritual origin of Geometry (1962) and The Origin of Mathematics from the Archive for History of Exact Sciences. The thoughts about linguistics came to me as I was reading a book by Mr.H.M.Nayak, Kannada - Literary and Colloquial, a study of two syles with a foreword by T.Burrow, publishers:Rao & Raghavan, first published in 1967. One of the questions asked was - Can you use mathematics to solve a real world problem such as "What is the best college for my son to do his masters?". The answer is a YES. Many magazines (Newsweek & USNews &World report)come out with standards for each college based on many factors for eg: research funding,quality of faculty,Exam scores for admission, Size of classrooms,Fees etc. It seems to me that there are so many exceptions to "rules" that linguistic evidence cannot be depended upon to be the main foundation on which thousands of years of history can be built. In my opinion, it most definitely can only be used a supporting or secondary evidence not the main evidence. I did not intend to attack any "camp" and I havent used any pseudonyms :) As for as the personal attacks go - all I can do is ignore them. Those who mind dont matter Those who matter dont mind. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sun Jan 18 18:57:54 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 19:57:54 +0100 Subject: linguistic & mathematics Message-ID: <161227034812.23782.15618325998460551225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Subrahmanya, Being a mathematician and a linguist, I can't agree with your arguments. Strictly speaking, there is no proof in mathematics. We give usually this name to a sequence of conventional rewritings, just an abstract game never going out of the truth if the mathematician don't make mistakes. The English use of the word "proof" for this task is perhaps fallacious; In French we don't use more the old "preuve", but "demonstration" = "showing". This sort of proof don't exist out of mathematics. All other sciences, even the physic, use just mathematical models based on an hypothetic theory of the world and, after a mathematical computing, need an other sort of "proof": compare the computed result with the observed facts. And this "proof" is able to invalidate the hypothesis, that's the true sense of the Latin "excipio probat regulam". There is an other problem. Some sciences, studying continuous objects need hard mathematics, usually incomprehensible by non-specialists, a sort of "secret language", perhaps a mystical one who give them an aura of mystery and respect. Other ones, studying finite objects having a finite set of relations (chemistry, linguistic), don't need actually mathematics, just the colour: "2 H2 + O2 -> 2 H2O" or "Skr. zravas + Gr. kleos -> IE *klewos". (I'm not convinced the fuzzy set theory is a powerful tool in linguistic, I believe that's just a attempt to give some obscurity (hence seriousness) to simple facts.) Third and last, chemistry make money, don't linguistic: the late is not respectable by you and you're able to send us injurious words. With impunity. You don't say from where you're talking and I suppose Subrahmanya to be a proud pseudonym. That's your right to dislike the linguistic and to prefer your own intuition helped by a divine inspiration. But the sciences have nothing to do with your attacks. Sorry, Lars, that's not strange to find Jacob in "your" camp, because there is just ONE camp! I make the same job when I'm studying philology or computing languages theory (who is highly mathematical), I'm just trying to understand. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 19 04:28:48 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 22:28:48 -0600 Subject: linguistic & mathematics Message-ID: <161227034824.23782.16117258771001331214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ms. Thillaud: You struck the nail on the head with your following statement "All other sciences, even the physic, use just mathematical models based on an hypothetic theory of the world and, after a mathematical computing, need an other sort of "proof": compare the computed result with the observed facts." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Consider this example: The Turing test for Linguists Let us assume that we give a person a dictionary or literature from a present day language, say tamil or kannada. Also give him/her a set of "rules". Will it be possible for him/her to recreate all the words of old tamil or kannada of 2000 years ago ?. If this is possible, then I will accept that I am wrong, and so called linguistic evidence CAN be used as the MAIN foundation for reconstructing the history of a ancient civilization. Subrahmanya From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 18 17:40:30 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 22:40:30 +0500 Subject: Linguists Message-ID: <161227034810.23782.13121771949847147673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:12 17/01/98 -0600, you wrote: >It boggles my mind to see seemingly rational >people deriving a proto language existing thousands of years before and >hundreds of generations ago spread out >over great land areas and through millions of people, based on >assumptions,and then adding more assumptions to it - >How in the world can one scientifically prove these assumptions ?? >How can one be so confident of assumptions - without logically >proving that it is the only possibility ??. >Linguists have a ingenious solution - they just call these initial >assumptions as "rules" - then there is no necessity for any scientific >proof, only consensus from fellow researchers is necessary. >Subrahmanya Dear Subramanya: Do you really know how the comparative method and historical reconstruction work? It has taken over a hundred and fifty years to do it and the system is scientifically testable. How could a man land on the moon so many thousands of miles away during this century? If that has become possible because of many sciences working together, reaching the Proto-language has also become possible in the same way and in the same sense. The man who landed on the moon apparently did not survey or see the whole surface of the moon. So a comparativist does not reconstruct the whole language with its dialects and culture history of thousaands of years. But he has clues to show how varied the proto language was with the comparative method. Anyway, what is your problem with linguists? Tell us a specific problem, where you find proof lacking. Genuine historical linguists have no problem enlightening you on thier method. I wish you sent your posting to Histling. They would have taken up the challenge better than the Indology group which has some linguists but not many of that kind. From your name, I understand you must be a Kannada (or Tulu = Kannada culturally) native speaker. I have just guessed. If you were a Tamil, you would be Subramanyan, and if you were a Telugu, you would be Subra(h)manyam. Am I right? How did I guess? There is a pattern in naming in different South Indian languages and there are few exceptions. The cultural pattern is my proof. I would be correct in the above guess 95% of times. I will tell you more about the accuracy of reconstrcuting Proto-Dravidian if you are interested. Sincerely, Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: Note:Please note what follows hd is digit 1 and not letter l. In vsnl the final character is letter l and not digit 1. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Mon Jan 19 05:50:16 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 23:50:16 -0600 Subject: Vedic sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034826.23782.13826516539558711916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While there is no shortage of eulogies to water/aapas in the Vedic material, and its ritual purification role is well-attested, I am curious as to any mythology and liturgy as regards offerings of water--how are they performed and under what circumstances? I know that Agni is well-associated wtih water with regard to hiding there (RV 10.51.3, or coming from tehre 10.45.1), but is there anything else? Preferably from Early Vedic ritual rather than the later periods. thanks in advance, and Happy Martin Luther King Day to those folks knowing of it! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Jan 19 06:41:14 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 01:41:14 -0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227034827.23782.13096708534007146078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the formulation of the i/e and u/o sound change model proposed by Bh. Krishnamurthy, there seems to be some disagreements between Dr. Krishnamurthy and Dr. P.S. Subrahmanyam as has been pointed out by Dr. Krishnamurthy himself in his foreword to Subrahmanyam?s book, "Dravidian Comparative Phonology". But Subrahmanyam does agree with Krishnamurthy regarding Krishnamurthy?s basic view : Proto-Dravidian had all the four vowels i,e,u,o in the root syllable of (C)VC type. In Proto-South Dravidian they remained as such when high vowels or zero followed in the next syllable, i.e. (C)VC-i/u/0; but when a low vowel -a followed i,u merged with e,o; i.e.PD*(C)i/uC-a >PSD*(C)e/oC-a- (rule of vowel harmony or umlaut). Then, Early Tamil (which included Malayalam) changed these sequences to i,u (rule of dissimilation) throughout. Krishnamurthy based his conclusion regarding the nature of the proto-South Dravidian phonemic status (whether they were *i/*u or *e/*o) on the contraction of the root vowel and derivative vowel which takesplace when the intervening *-k-, *-y- (<*-c-) or *-v- is lost. In his book "Telugu Verbal Bases", Krishnamurthy gives the following processes I. (a). *iC-[I,u > I II (a). *uC-[I,u >U (b). *iC-[a > E (b). *uC-[a> O (c). *eC-[I,u,a > E (c). *oC-[i,u,a > O Krishnamurthy says, " From the above we notice that in contracted forms PDr. *e and *o do not change their qualities but are simply lengthened when any one of the three admissible vowel occurs in the derivative suffix. On the contrary, PDr. *i and *u in the sequences *iC[-a and *uC[-a behave in the same manner as original *e and *o in producing E and O in contractions. In contrast to this *i and *u preserve their quality even in contractions when they are not originally followed by a. In other words in the environment [C-a all the SDr. languages show E and O in contracted forms irrespective of whether the Pdr. quality is *i *e or *u *o respectively". There seems to be a fundamental problem with this. Let us consider some words in Classical Tamil texts with first vowel "u" as in our present problem. Consider the following words: "uvaRu" (kalittokai 136.2) "URu" (akanAn2URu 178.7) . Both mean "to spring, flow (as water in a well), etc. There are more pairs like this. If Krisnamurthy?s rule II (b) were to be valid, we should have ORu instead of URu. So, this example shows that the model of Krishnamurthy is not valid for all cases. This means at least in some dialects, PDr phonemes must have continued to exist right through proto-SDr to Classical Tamil stage as seen here. I am surprised that in 40 years Dravidian linguists have not realized this. (This underscores the importance of Classical Tamil for an accurate historical analysis of Dravidian.) F. B. J. Kuiper in his book "Aryans in the Rig Veda" gives evidence of i/e and u/o variation in foreign words in the Vedic texts. zI?pAla (RV) - ze?vala (AV) ogaNa (RV) - u?gaNa (YV) He also gives evidence of loss of initial "z" in two loan words between Vedic and post-Vedic materials. Examples are zirimbitha- (RV) - Irimbithi- (sarvAnukramaNI) zailUSa?- (VS) - AilUSa- (AB) All these charactereistics remind us of situations recorded in South Dravidian several centuries later. While Kuiper does not say the origin of these loan words, the fact that such alternation has existed at Vedic or post-Vedic periods indicates its long history. Coming to the present case, I am attempting to explore only the etymology of ?kuyava" in RV and VS. I leave the ?ku/UyavAc" to others. Among these two (RV and VS occurrences), I do not know if Krishnamurthy has any disagreements with the VS occurrence in light of the discussion above. As for the RV occurrence, Krishnamurthy says <> As far as I know, "kucava" does not occur in Old Tamil texts. What we do find is "kuyava". I would be interested to know when "kucava" is first attested. Be that as it may, even if the reconstructed form is *kucava, there is a possibility that the variant "kuyava" might have existed even during the Vedic period. According to P. S. Subrahmanyam, "*-c- is weakened to -y- in many cases even in Proto-Dravidian". So, one cannot rule out the possibility of Vedic borrowing "kuyava" from a dialect where such a weakening has takenplace. In a later posting, I shall address the cultural factors which make me think that RV "kuyava" might refer to the potter/chieftain. I welcome comments. Regards S. Palaniappan From Vaidix at AOL.COM Mon Jan 19 11:43:41 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 06:43:41 -0500 Subject: linguistic & mathematics Message-ID: <161227034840.23782.11227281264373256539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Thillaud, >(I'm not convinced the fuzzy set theory is a powerful tool in >linguistic, I believe that's just a attempt to give some obscurity (hence >seriousness) to simple facts.) Not yet, it is a new field in infancy. The digital computers are based on a design that uses some specific states "on" and "off". Everything else in the digital computer is definite. The brain and other neuro material in the body are made up of millions of neurons. These neurons do not work like digital switches, but have their own method of computing (called neuro-fuzzy computing). The neurons do not work as fast as the digital switches of a computer, it is like comparing a tortoise to a space rocket, but the neuro computing (of even a two year old child) can achieve miracles like pattern recognition (such as recognizing the caricature of a cow as a cow) which even digital computer can not do to this date. What is the secret of this miraculously great computing power of the brain? There are two aspects to this. Neuro and Fuzzy. Let us talk of "Fuzzy" to begin with. Each neuron knows pretty well, the futility of trying to digitize an observation and accurately measure it, there is just not enough time to do it, considering the urgency of the situation the organism faces. As a survival instinct, the neuron assess each event and categorizes the event into one of the "few" known "linguistic" states of mind. Let us say there is a neuron located in a certain place in the brain (which can be verified by scientific experiments) which is an expert in assessing distances. This neuron never attempts to measure the distance of a speeding vehicle in exact meters and milli meters to begin with. It just puts the distance into some knows states such as "very near", "near", "a little far" or 'far" etc. The brain then uses these fuzzified inputs in its processing. If the results are not satisfactory, next time the neuron learns to improve its assessment of distance. To actually measure the distance in meters, we have to probably go to other neurons in a different place in the brain, which are experts in that field. Depending on context, these neurons may translate "very near" as ten meters, "very far" as 100 meters etc. There would be other neurons that decide whether there is a need to measure the distance more accurately or whether to stop measuring and take necessary action considering the urgency. These neurons classify the time available into linguistic states such as "ample time available", "some what urgent" or "very urgent" etc. The list is endless. It is all a team work by neurons which are experts in different aspects like this. The other aspect of the miracle of the mind is "Neuro". The word neuro denotes a network of neurons. A single neuron can not achieve much other than express its own feelings in a chemical or electric language. A network can do wonders. "Making connections" between neurons has the linguistic effect of relating different concepts. "Transmission" of signals is the linguistic equivalent of deduction. Readjusting the connections between neurons depending on success or failure of present action is the lingustic equivalent of "Learning". The list is endless. Combining neuro and fuzzy concepts, computer scientists are able to write programs that can do near-human things like pattern recognition (such as signatures). These are the things that can not be achieved by tradition computer programming. When computer scientists can benefit from linguistic experience, why can't lingusts benefit from neuro-fuzzy theories? If a neuron assesses each event into certain lingustic states, conversely each syllable used in linguistics in any language is the result of such assessment by neurons. That is the connection. The field is brand new, and a lot more research is needed before it can be put to practical use, but we can make a beginning. Bhadraiah Mallampalli http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/bailey/64 (Vaidix). From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Mon Jan 19 07:54:56 1998 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 07:54:56 +0000 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034831.23782.7110453736360221274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Bhagavad-giitaa : an international bibliography of 1785-1979 imprints / Jagdish Ch. Kaoor. - New York, 1983" mention one translation of the Bhagavad-giitaa into yiddish : "Dos getlekhe lid. The song divine bhagavad-gita, ancient hindu poem of devotion. Translated into Yiddish by Aba Kliger. New York : [Printed by] Shulsinger Bros, 1955." All the best Francois At 10:14 16.01.98 EST, you wrote: >Please help me to settle a question. Is there a translation of the >Gita into Yiddish? Is it readily available? Thanks for help >and patience with frivolous inquiry. > > +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+ > | Stephen Dubin VMD PhD | > | Biomedical Engineering and Science Institute | > | Drexel University, Philadelphia PA 19104 | > | Phone: 215-895-2219 Fax: 215-895-4983 | > | Email: dubinse at duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | > | http://biomed6.coe.drexel.edu/faculty_profiles/dubin.html | > | Guerir quelquefois, Soulager souvent, Consoler toujours | > +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+ > > Francois Obrist Section de langues et civilisations orientales Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Mon Jan 19 10:25:13 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 08:25:13 -0200 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034834.23782.12853307650087726053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --->At 10:14 16.01.98 EST, you wrote: >>Please help me to settle a question. Is there a translation of the >>Gita into Yiddish? Is it readily available? Thanks for help >>and patience with frivolous inquiry. >> > >My God, who on earth would be interested in reading this classical text in a german patois ? What could be the meaning of such a translation? >> +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+ >> | Stephen Dubin VMD PhD | >> | Biomedical Engineering and Science Institute | >> | Drexel University, Philadelphia PA 19104 | >> | Phone: 215-895-2219 Fax: 215-895-4983 | >> | Email: dubinse at duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | >> | http://biomed6.coe.drexel.edu/faculty_profiles/dubin.html | >> | Guerir quelquefois, Soulager souvent, Consoler toujours | >> +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+ >> >> >Francois Obrist >Section de langues et civilisations orientales >Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne >CH-1015 Lausanne >e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch > From umadevi at SFO.COM Mon Jan 19 17:20:21 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 09:20:21 -0800 Subject: Telegu Inscription Message-ID: <161227034852.23782.2144884246175730012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Bh. Krishnamurti, Thank you for your very kind offer of translation help! I shall get a good 8"X10" black and white glossy printed (I now only have slides) and mail it off to you. So in a month or less, you will get a photo packet from San Francisco. Meanwhile, if you are curious, these stones are in the outer courtyard of the Archaeological Museum in the Public Gardens in Hyderabad. If you find yourself in the area you might find it interesting to take a look at them. With gratitude, Mary Storm From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 19 15:30:26 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 10:30:26 -0500 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034845.23782.10474077954761045729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When I was last in India ('94-'95), the Northern gadi was being contested by three different acaryas, but I don't know the lineage details of the third. Edwin On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I may be out of date, but I believe there are two acaryas who claim to > hold the Northern Sankara gadi: > > The first lineage goes Brahmanandasarasvati -> Santanandasarasvati -> > Visnudevanandasarasvati. > > The other one goes Santanandasarasvati -> Svarupanandasarasvati. > > Svarupananda is simultaneously (or was for some time) the incumbent of the > western gadi in Dwaraka. > > There is much more detail to this than the simple lineages above would > suggest. Perhaps someone else who is more up to date than me would like > to elaborate? > > All the best, > Dominik > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine > email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England > FAX: 44 171 611 8545 > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 19 11:15:34 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 11:15:34 +0000 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: <01bd246c$612c4100$ece06dd1@#vyasa> Message-ID: <161227034838.23782.615763296341464560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I may be out of date, but I believe there are two acaryas who claim to hold the Northern Sankara gadi: The first lineage goes Brahmanandasarasvati -> Santanandasarasvati -> Visnudevanandasarasvati. The other one goes Santanandasarasvati -> Svarupanandasarasvati. Svarupananda is simultaneously (or was for some time) the incumbent of the western gadi in Dwaraka. There is much more detail to this than the simple lineages above would suggest. Perhaps someone else who is more up to date than me would like to elaborate? All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 19 17:25:16 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 11:25:16 -0600 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227034850.23782.6784369456149769917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >What kind of rules are you talking about? >You need to compare words which are known to be cognates from across a >family and use the principle of contrast and complementation to reconstruct >the proto-forms. A rational methodology, requires that there be some kind of verification. If it's just a leap of faith then it becomes religion, not scientific enquiry. >?From H.M.Nayaks book, I was surprised to learn that a comprehensive comparision of all major Indian languages has never been done (atleast until the late 60's). I will really appreciate it, if you can point me to a study, which compares ALL major Indian languages - not just 1 or 2 from a presupposed language family. > Please check out >a text book on historical linguistics from your library and study >the method used before you attack the time-tested comparative >reconstruction. There are many people who have doubts about comparitive reconstruction. The problem is not about the contribution of linguistics. The question is whethar it is dependable enough to base ALL historical reconstruction. It seems to me, because of the 150year baggage,Indologists seem to be spinning their wheels in the sand of linguistic evidence without using inputs from fields like archeology, astronomy and a scientific/mathematical evaluation of original sources. Now, I will get off my soapbox :) S.Subrahmanya Houston, TX From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 19 11:51:06 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 11:51:06 +0000 Subject: Kerala cdrom publicity Message-ID: <161227034842.23782.7129946119860268067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hesitate to forward this advert to the group, but it is short and may be of interest. In principle, though, INDOLOGY is not an apropriate forum for advertising, except when the content is significantly indological (whatever that means :-). All the best, Dominik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:32:29 +0530 (IST) From: "HARI.M.R" Subject: Re: Kind Attn. Indologists > Dear Sir/Madam > A CD-ROM on the state of Kerala, Republic of India will be released > soon. > Contents include about 600colour transparencies,500 frames of text and > 100 audio/video clips. > Please visit www.invismultimedia.com for samplepages and send us > your > comments.Please forward this mail to those friends of yours ,interested > in > Kerala,India. > > Regards From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 19 12:07:55 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 12:07:55 +0000 Subject: Vedic sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034843.23782.18246268484617763761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:50 PM 1/18/98 -0600, JR Gardner wrote: >While there is no shortage of eulogies to water/aapas in the Vedic >material, and its ritual purification role is well-attested, I am curious >as to any mythology and liturgy as regards offerings of water--how are >they performed and under what circumstances? I know that Agni is >well-associated wtih water with regard to hiding there (RV 10.51.3, or >coming from tehre 10.45.1), but is there anything else? Preferably from >Early Vedic ritual rather than the later periods. > >thanks in advance, and Happy Martin Luther King Day to those folks knowing >of it! > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >John Robert Gardner Obermann Center >School of Religion for Advanced Studies >University of Iowa University of Iowa >319-335-2164 319-335-4034 >http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other >than that of which it is the transformation. > > As far as I know water is ritualistically offered in the following ways 1.arghya - oblative sUrya, gods, pitRs and atithis 2.pAdya - to wash feet 3.AcamanIya - to wet the mouth 4.pAnIya - to drink 5.tarpaNa - another kind of oblative to gods and pitRs 6.snAna - for bath 7.prOkSaNa - sprinking of water to purify things 8.upasparzana - to touch water to purify oneself There may be some more. regards, sarma. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 19 07:26:08 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 12:26:08 +0500 Subject: linguistic & mathematics Message-ID: <161227034829.23782.8913026042097676956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Consider this example: The Turing test for Linguists > >Let us assume that we give a person a dictionary or literature >from a present day language, say tamil or kannada. >Also give him/her a set of "rules". Will it be possible for >him/her to recreate all the words of old tamil or kannada of >2000 years ago ?. >If this is possible, then I will accept that I am wrong, and so >called linguistic evidence CAN be used as the MAIN foundation >for reconstructing the history of a ancient civilization. > >Subrahmanya > >Dear Subramanya: >?From the challenge that you have thrown it is clear you have no idea how linguistic reconstruction is done. No body does reconstruction on the basis of the dictionary of ONE language. What kind of rules are you talking about? You need to compare words which are known to be cognates from across a family and use the principle of contrast and complementation to reconstruct the proto-forms. Please look at my Telugu Verbal Bases (1961 Univ of Cal. Berkeley). You can see how reconstruction is done particularly with data from Dravidian. Within one language also you have to compare different chronological layers (if such data are available as for Kannada) and/or dialect forms (always involving cognate)and reconstruct the oldest stage of that language. Please check out a text book on historical linguistics from your library and study the method used before you attack the time-tested comparative reconstruction. Are we using the Indology List to educate each other on elementary things? What a waste of time! Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: Note:Please note what follows hd is digit 1 and not letter l. In vsnl the final character is letter l and not digit 1. From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Jan 19 17:40:45 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 12:40:45 -0500 Subject: Vedic sacrifice Message-ID: <161227034854.23782.14913016496575765059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:50 PM 1/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >While there is no shortage of eulogies to water/aapas in the Vedic >material, and its ritual purification role is well-attested, I am curious >as to any mythology and liturgy as regards offerings of water--how are >they performed and under what circumstances? In Bhagavad-gItA 9.26, Lord KRSNa recommends offering a leaf, flower, fruit, or water (toyam) to Him in devotion. Consequently, in KRSNa temples, the KRSNa Deity is offered water with His meals several times a day, and in addition, on the altar there is covered container of water near Him, usually to His right side. >thanks in advance, and Happy Martin Luther King Day to those folks knowing >of it! It is also the disappearance anniversary of GauDIya VaiSNava saint, Locana DAsa ThAkura, who wrote celebrated devotional songs. I hope this is of some help. Chris Beetle From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Jan 19 18:40:47 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 12:40:47 -0600 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227034855.23782.3782080558261841266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin, do you have the spiritual head of the Danda Sannyasis in mind? You may want to look in William Cenkner A TRADITION OF TEACHERS. SANSKARA AND JAGADGURUS TODAY, published by Motilal Banarsidass in Delhi,1983, repr.1995. Since this is not absolutely current, you may want to contact Prof. Andrew Fort at the Texas Christian University, who interviewed several of the Sanskaracaryas. I am not sure whether he went to Jyotirmath or Allahabad though. I know of his visits to the maths in the south of India. Good luck, Edeltraud Harzer Clear Asian Studies Univ. of Texas Austin >Does anyone know who the current Shankaracarya of the North is and any information about him i.e. who his Guru was, who his predecessor was and any other info around that. I heard there was some controversy around the current seat. > >Thank you for your help. > >Martin From umadevi at SFO.COM Mon Jan 19 21:35:37 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 13:35:37 -0800 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034869.23782.3875055358775916098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think it is quite wonderful that someone had the inclination and discipline to translate the Gita into Yiddish, a language that had a relatively small but intellectually and religiously vibrant community of speakers. This must have been a labor of love. It perhaps seems curious because Yiddish was a language of a predominately self-enclosed community, not noted for its curiosity about Indian religious thought. Some texts are translated into every arcane language imaginable, the Book of Mormon seems to be out there in almost every known language, including Esperanto. On a more frivolous note, if Winnie the Pooh can be translated into Latin, why not the Gita into Yiddish? The better question might be why there is hostility to the idea? From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 19 09:18:41 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 14:18:41 +0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227034833.23782.11335376747822919394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:41 19/01/98 EST, you wrote: >Let us consider some words in Classical Tamil texts with first vowel "u" as in >our present problem. Consider the following words: >"uvaRu" (kalittokai 136.2) >"URu" (akanAn2URu 178.7) . Both mean "to spring, flow (as water in a well), >etc. > >There are more pairs like this. If Krisnamurthys rule II (b) were to be >valid, we should have ORu instead of URu. So, this example shows that the >model of Krishnamurthy is not valid for all cases. This means at least in some >dialects, PDr phonemes must have continued to exist right through proto-SDr to >Classical Tamil stage as seen here. I am surprised that in 40 years Dravidian >linguists have not realized this. (This underscores the importance of >Classical Tamil for an accurate historical analysis of Dravidian.) > >Coming to the present case, I am attempting to explore only the etymology of >kuyava" in RV and VS. I leave the ku/UyavAc" to others. Among these two (RV >and VS occurrences), I do not know if Krishnamurthy has any disagreements with >the VS occurrence in light of the discussion above. As for the RV occurrence, >Krishnamurthy says <Proto-South Dravidian. Old Tamil had both kucavan and kuyavan.See DEDR (1984) >entry 1762 The -c- form was older as in the case of PD*picar, PSD *pecar, Old >Kannada pesaru 'name', Ta. peyar, pe:r, Telugu pe:ru; Pkt. sa:siram (< Skt. >sahasra-), Ta. a:yiram, etc. Assuming that all non-SD languages have lost the >potter form, at the time of borrowing from Dravidian during the Vedic period, >the form should have been *kucawa[kusawa].. and not *kuyawa.>> > >As far as I know, "kucava" does not occur in Old Tamil texts. What we do find >is "kuyava". I would be interested to know when "kucava" is first attested. Be >that as it may, even if the reconstructed form is *kucava, there is a >possibility that the variant "kuyava" might have existed even during the Vedic >period. According to P. S. Subrahmanyam, "*-c- is weakened to -y- in many >cases even in Proto-Dravidian". So, one cannot rule out the possibility of >Vedic borrowing "kuyava" from a dialect where such a weakening has takenplace. >In a later posting, I shall address the cultural factors which make me think >that RV "kuyava" might refer to the potter/chieftain. I welcome comments. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > >Old Ta. uvaRu has no cognate in any other Drav. language. But u:Ru ( -y-/-0- is found. You have correctly summarized my stand on the alternation of high and mid vowels and my position is widely accepted by Comp Drav scholars. What PSS says matters little except where he has strong arguments in favour of his stand. Also notice that the contracted form of kuyawa occurs as ko: within Ta.Kota, Toda and Kannada. Emeneau derives the name Kota from the potter word, ko:v 'a Kota man'.Regards, Bh.K. Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: Note:Please note what follows hd is digit 1 and not letter l. In vsnl the final character is letter l and not digit 1. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 19 15:56:33 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 15:56:33 +0000 Subject: New Ramayana book Message-ID: <161227034847.23782.3960922490865439992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A particularly beautiful new book has come into my hadnds: K. Vijayan (ed.), _Ramayana in palm leaf pictures: Citraramayana_ (Trivandrum: Oriental Research Institute and Manuscripts Library, 1997). Trivandrum Sanskrit Series No. 265. Copies available from Dr K. Vijayan, Professor of Sanskrit and Director, Oriental Research Institute & Manuscripts Library, Kariavattom, Trivandrum 695 581, INDIA. Price Rs. 1000 ($50.00). The book contains over three hundred colour photographs of a magnificent 15th century engraved palm leaf manuscript (Trivandrum ORIML Codex no. 12308), with useful introduction and appendices giving full documentation of the pictures and text. The whole book is exceptionally well produced on art paper, and the photos are very clear. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Mon Jan 19 21:22:13 1998 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 16:22:13 -0500 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) In-Reply-To: <01bd24cc$e94feea0$LocalHost@default> Message-ID: <161227034866.23782.10086515760074419906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>My God, who on earth would be interested in reading this classical text in >a german patois ? What could be the meaning of such a translation? What is the meaning of this 'hostile' (?) attitude? Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From jkirk at MICRON.NET Mon Jan 19 23:34:47 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk@micron.net) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 16:34:47 -0700 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034878.23782.18092190073677413010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In regard to this Gita in Yiddish thread, does anyone know if any of the marvelous works of Nobel Prize winner I.B. Singer, who wrote everything first in Yiddish (or almost everything, not sure of "all") have been translated into Hindi or Urdu? Joanna Kirkpatrick From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 19 11:43:26 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 16:43:26 +0500 Subject: Telegu Inscription Message-ID: <161227034836.23782.3948626627810778793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:47 18/01/98 -0800, you wrote: >Greetings to All You Linguists Out There: >I have found a group of 12th c. stones from the Nalgonda area (near >Hyderabad) depicting self-oblation (also mentioned by P.A. >Sreenivasachar in an article from the A.P. Arch Series, no 15, 1963, if >you want to delve into this a bit). A few of the stones have Telegu >inscriptions. I have carefully photographed the inscriptional sections >of the stones and now am in search of someone who might be interested in >helping with the translation of the inscription. >Is there some person out there who might be interested in this little >project? >Many Thanks to all you aural people for thinking visually for a few >moments! >Mary Storm > >Yes: please send me a copy of the Telugu inscription. I will try to help you. Sincerely, BhK Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: Note:Please note what follows hd is digit 1 and not letter l. In vsnl the final character is letter l and not digit 1. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Mon Jan 19 16:37:32 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 17:37:32 +0100 Subject: linguistic & mathematics In-Reply-To: <48bc82e9.34c33c6f@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034873.23782.15593598402936454101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>(I'm not convinced the fuzzy set theory is a powerful tool in >>linguistic, I believe that's just a attempt to give some obscurity (hence >>seriousness) to simple facts.) > >Not yet, it is a new field in infancy. Sorry, I have mixed up your term with an older theory of blurred sets (Fr. "ensembles flous"). There are many attempts to give a theory of brain or computer management, each one explaining or modelizing the other. That's very interesting but, in my opinion, perhaps too early. Nevertheless, each science needs precursors, hence good luck! Regards, Dominique PS: to Mr Subrahmanya: OK, you exist and I apologize for my "proud pseudonym". And I stop here, I need a nice cup of coffee ;-) Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jan 19 16:48:15 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 17:48:15 +0100 Subject: New Ramayana book Message-ID: <161227034849.23782.4448387872069610191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique Wujastyk wrote: >A particularly beautiful new book has come into my hadnds: > >K. Vijayan (ed.), _Ramayana in palm leaf pictures: Citraramayana_ >(Trivandrum: Oriental Research Institute and Manuscripts Library, 1997). >Trivandrum Sanskrit Series No. 265. > >Copies available from > >Dr K. Vijayan, >Professor of Sanskrit and Director, >Oriental Research Institute & Manuscripts Library, >Kariavattom, >Trivandrum 695 581, >INDIA. > >Price Rs. 1000 ($50.00). Dom, does prof. Vijayan have a fax number? Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Mon Jan 19 20:12:15 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 18:12:15 -0200 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034864.23782.12143166802226507843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Besides Yiddish, that mere "German patois" by some pompous ignoramuses, >is also a language that has been the medium of several great writers >(one of them a Nobel Prize winner) and of an important culture. How much affected and violent in language certain people get when not everyone accept fully what they believe to be truth. For me a translation in Hebrew would have quite sense, but not much in Yidish, a disapearing, second language , no doubt a patois and a german dialect, an exclusive vehicle for communication only between members of a certain community without any universal aim. That's why it sounds strange to me and don't come with that old paranoid talk of anti-semitism. From Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Mon Jan 19 17:40:00 1998 From: Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Sara McClintock) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 18:40:00 +0100 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) In-Reply-To: <01bd24cc$e94feea0$LocalHost@default> Message-ID: <161227034857.23782.18158103487878223735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>Please help me to settle a question. Is there a translation of the >>>Gita into Yiddish? Is it readily available? Thanks for help >>>and patience with frivolous inquiry. >>> >>My God, who on earth would be interested in reading this classical text in >a german patois ? What could be the meaning of such a translation? Yiddish is a literary language in which thousands of books have been written. It has a long history in Europe, where it was the primary language of millions of people before the Nazi Holocaust. The Yiddish translation of the Bhagavad Gita cited by Francois Obrist was published in 1955 in New York. I can well imagine that there would have been many educated Jewish intellectuals in New York at that time who would have been interested in reading such a famous Indian religious work in the language with which they were most familiar. Under certain definitions, Yiddish can be considered a patois. But looked at from another angle, it is a full blown literary language in its own right. ____________________ Sara McClintock Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne email: Sara.McClintock at orient.unil.ch From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 20 03:43:12 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 19:43:12 -0800 Subject: 2 Questions Message-ID: <161227034893.23782.15566292856656326804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear INDOLOGISTS, I have two questions for you: 1. Is there a word/grammatical classification to describe two separate Samskrt words which have the same meaning(paryAya pada) and the spellings are slight variants of each other? i.e. pr`thvI and pr`ithivI mean "earth" and the spelling is slightly different, but both are separate words. Other examples are : mukunda and mucukunda( both mean "viSNu"), vasudhA and vasundharA( both mean "earth") and probably zabarI and zaurI ( the lady who appears in the rAmAyaNa, though I'm not sure if "zaurI" can mean "zabarI"). How have these words been derived?( spelling is nearly the same but the words are treated as separate) 2. Can anyone point me towards the derivation/origins of the word "AI"( mother) in marATHI and assamese? The word AFAIK does not exist in Hindi and Bengali( the languages spoken in between Maharashtra and Assam) but is strangely present in these two geographically discontinuous areas. Are there any other examples of such words? Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jan 19 18:52:49 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 19:52:49 +0100 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227034860.23782.1482602220046674284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There are many people who have doubts about comparitive reconstruction. >The problem is not about the contribution of linguistics. The question is >whethar it is dependable enough to base ALL historical reconstruction. > >It seems to me, because of the 150year baggage,Indologists seem to be >spinning their wheels in the sand of linguistic evidence without using >inputs from fields like archeology, astronomy and a scientific/mathematical >evaluation of original sources. > >Now, I will get off my soapbox :) Not quite yet, if you please! No one ever claimed that historical reconstruction could solve ALL historical historical reconstruction problems. If you check out Mallory's book "In Search of the Indo-Europeans", you will find that linguists do not necessarily agree upon where exactly to place the I-E. "Urvolk". There are a number of problems that are just extremely difficult. (And by the way, Mr. Subrahmania is not the only person to be sceptical of historical linguistic reconstruction. I have met the same attitude in some Norwegian scholars ("literary", not linguistic scholars, that is. People who are well-read in historical linguistics normally believe in the method). It is, however, wrong to claim that Indologists are spinning their wheels in the sand of linguistic evidence. Certainly, linguistic evidence is extremely important (at least to us), but archaeology has been discussed for a long time. Asko Parpola's last book on the Indus script ("Deciphering the Indus Script", 1994, CUP) discusses archaeology, and so does Mallory, not to mention Marija Gimbutas. As for astronomy, the German philologist (ouch, that NASTY word again!) Jacobi wrote extensively about astronomical evidence in Indological issues. That was a 100 years ago. I am a little bit uncertain about what you mean when you talk about scientific/mathematical evaluation of the evidence. Could you be more specific? (Back on the soap box, please :)) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Mon Jan 19 19:40:30 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 20:40:30 +0100 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034862.23782.4738245653876931660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >My God, who on earth would be interested in reading this classical text in >a german patois ? What could be the meaning of such a translation? As pretentious, snobbish and ill informed statements go, I have not seen many that have come close. It would be worth having a translation of the giitaa (or any work of universal importance) in _any_ language, patois, dialect, idiom or creole whatsoever. Using what kind of argument can one reasonably justify the view that people who speak a given language should be denied access to a signi- ficant text? Besides Yiddish, that mere "German patois" by some pompous ignoramuses, is also a language that has been the medium of several great writers (one of them a Nobel Prize winner) and of an important culture. From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Jan 20 03:05:56 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 21:05:56 -0600 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227034888.23782.4373512891604946221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 5:17 AM Subject: Re: Shankaracarya of the North >I may be out of date, but I believe there are two acaryas who claim to >hold the Northern Sankara gadi: > >The first lineage goes Brahmanandasarasvati -> Santanandasarasvati -> >Visnudevanandasarasvati. > >The other one goes Santanandasarasvati -> Svarupanandasarasvati. Actually the dividsion started when Branmandasaraswati "left". Evidently, there was one who expected to be anointed by him when he left. However Branmandasaraswati gave his blessings to Santanandasarasvati and told him to take over. It seems that this may not have been completely public enough, and the other one, i don't remember his name, and think he did not live for long, decided, along with his followers to contest the decision. There has been a division of properties and a big legal dispute in the courts ever since. (40 years or so) I think there have been quite a few in the "secondary " line, and it may have split again, as suggested elsewhere. I visited Santanandasarasvati in the Hardwar residence of the Shankaracharya of the North in 1974, and he seemed to be pretty much in control at that time, but that was only an outsider's opinion. I have heard that the Joytir Math seat is much more in contest. > >Svarupananda is simultaneously (or was for some time) the incumbent of the >western gadi in Dwaraka. > >There is much more detail to this than the simple lineages above would >suggest. Perhaps someone else who is more up to date than me would like >to elaborate? > >All the best, >Dominik > >-- >Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine >email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England > FAX: 44 171 611 8545 > From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Mon Jan 19 23:55:34 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 21:55:34 -0200 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034880.23782.7695498073927808586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me remind >you that Hebrew startet out at the beginning of this century even "deader" >than Yiddish is today. Dying languages can be brought back to life. > Yes but Hebrew was ( and is ) a language which is deeply rooted in the foundations of Jewish mind and culture, being its very linguistical archetype, intrinsically connected with its various expressions. Not so with Yidish, which derives from a language with a largely different set of values. >And by the way, I am not Jewish, and I will be very cross with anybody who >accuses me of being politically correct. > >Best regards, > Well in that case it's just your own problem. >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jan 20 00:01:18 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 22:01:18 -0200 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034882.23782.17439765049814701298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Fine, you don't have to read it. Nobody asked you to, or for any advice, >btw. Apparently _some_ guy thought it was worth doing, but you are of >course so much more clever. That would seem to come close to what, in >English and Yiddish, is called to kibitz. > There is a word in Australian English: Wanking. It seems to apply to you. This an open List and I doubt if someone is interested in the exclusivity of _your_ opinion. >I'd say you look more like a ignorant and a snob to me. You do seem to be so much affected! > From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jan 20 00:05:43 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 22:05:43 -0200 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034884.23782.15487361711373781236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> - >What is the meaning of this 'hostile' (?) attitude? > >I assure you that it wasn't a hostile attitude at all. It was just a remark. > From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jan 20 00:14:50 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 22:14:50 -0200 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034886.23782.5564802469303765428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- > Let me remind >>you that Hebrew startet out at the beginning of this century even "deader" >>than Yiddish is today. Dying languages can be brought back to life. >> >Yes but Hebrew was ( and is ) a language which is deeply rooted in the >foundations of Jewish mind and culture, being its very linguistical >archetype, intrinsically connected with its various expressions. Not so with >Yidish, which derives from a language with a largely different set of >values. > >>And by the way, I am not Jewish, and I will be very cross with anybody who >>accuses me of being politically correct. >> >>Best regards, >> >Well in that case it's just your own problem. Best regards also ( och jag verkligen hoppas Ni icke missf?rsta mig . I sj?lva verket jag var bara f?rvanad ) From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 20 07:28:00 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 23:28:00 -0800 Subject: Naciketas-3 Message-ID: <161227034895.23782.10230997244570185064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shalom to all, Thanks for the responses to my previous messages. Naciketas is actually quite a neglected hero of the Hindu scripturtes and he deserves being treated, on the Internet and otherwise. One of the minor issues that I deal with in my work is the meaning of his name -"Naciketas". Traditionally it was believed to mean "someone who does not know", according to the division of the name "na+ciketas". This iterpretation was accepted by Bohtlingk, and other interpreters, European and Indian (Radhakrishnan, Whitney, Helfer, and others), assuming that the name is derived from the Sanskrit root?cit?, which means ?to know?. Wadhwani also derives the meaning of the name from "cit", but says that the meaning of "Naciketas" is "someone who knows", as the term "na-vedas" in the Rgveda, thus opposing tacitly the traditional interpretation. Charpentier is most original and does not derive the meaning of the name from "cit" or knowledge. He reads the name (following Wackernagel) as "naci+ketas", parallel to Kamadeva's name - "Makaraketu", and hence similar to the name "Svetaketu" of the Chandogya Upanisad. I shall be very grateful for any comments, information and sources, concerning the name Naciketas, or/and any clarification concerning the term "naci" and its affinity to "nakra" or "nakraa". I have sent a similar note to the "Sanskrit Digest List". My appologies to those who have received it twice. Thanks in advance, Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Mon Jan 19 22:32:46 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 23:32:46 +0100 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034871.23782.12510866242347884147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >How much affected and violent in language certain people get when not >everyone accept fully what they believe to be truth. For me a translation in >Hebrew would have quite sense, but not much in Yidish, a disapearing, >second language , no doubt a patois and a german dialect, an exclusive >vehicle for communication only between members of a certain community >without any universal aim. Fine, you don't have to read it. Nobody asked you to, or for any advice, btw. Apparently _some_ guy thought it was worth doing, but you are of course so much more clever. That would seem to come close to what, in English and Yiddish, is called to kibitz. You brought us valuable information indeed. Now we know you don't approve of the idea. Great. Future translators beware: there's one Winnie who doesn't think it's such a hot idea. Happy? Maybe you'd like to let know the world at large now what other language you don't think the giitaa should be translated in? >That's why it sounds strange to me and don't come >with that old paranoid talk of anti-semitism. Who said that? If there's anyone who looks paranoid to me here it's you. I'd say you look more like a ignorant and a snob to me. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jan 19 23:17:08 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 00:17:08 +0100 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034876.23782.2120590986228866684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:12 19.01.98 -0200, you wrote: >>Besides Yiddish, that mere "German patois" by some pompous ignoramuses, >>is also a language that has been the medium of several great writers >>(one of them a Nobel Prize winner) and of an important culture. > > >How much affected and violent in language certain people get when not >everyone accept fully what they believe to be truth. For me a translation in >Hebrew would have quite sense, but not much in Yidish, a disapearing, >second language , no doubt a patois and a german dialect, an exclusive >vehicle for communication only between members of a certain community >without any universal aim. That's why it sounds strange to me and don't come >with that old paranoid talk of anti-semitism. I don't claim to be an expert on Yiddish, but from the language specimens I have seen, it seems to be about as different from Standard High German as Dutch. (As do indeed more than one German dialect). Given that it is a "dying" language, it would make sense to blow some life into it by translating foreign language literature into it. If languages want to survive, they have to produce a certain amount of written material. The remark about the "German patois" was rather insensitive, and, in my opinion, not very intelligent, so a bit of anger seems rather relevant. Let me remind you that Hebrew startet out at the beginning of this century even "deader" than Yiddish is today. Dying languages can be brought back to life. And by the way, I am not Jewish, and I will be very cross with anybody who accuses me of being politically correct. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From roheko at MSN.COM Mon Jan 19 23:19:45 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 00:19:45 +0100 Subject: camel Message-ID: <161227034891.23782.12512040398494747159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there anybody among the members who came across a literally source, that explains the meaning of a camel (female) which is sent to an outside prince. Could it probably be similar to a horse looking for a new king? However, the prince got the message "come soon" and became king. The text can be explained as: Prasenajit sent a (female) camel (uTTavAmA) to Srenika, meaning "come soon" or: Prasenajit sent camelriders (with the message) "come soon". I would like to know about different sources, where a female camel alone stands for something like the inthronisation. Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 20 09:00:53 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 01:00:53 -0800 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034899.23782.13247297879933485665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From owner-indology at listserv.liv.ac.uk Mon Jan 19 12:25:30 1998 >Received: from listserv (138.253.144.10) by listserv.liv.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.563EF010 at listserv.liv.ac.uk>; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:25:09 +0000 >Received: from LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK by LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK (LISTSERV-TCP/IP > release 1.8c) with spool id 32674 for INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK; > Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:25:08 +0000 >Received: from BBS.unikey.com.br (200.255.207.5) by listserv.liv.ac.uk (LSMTP > for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.551E8BF0 at listserv.liv.ac.uk>; > Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:25:07 +0000 >Received: from [200.255.207.173] by BBS.unikey.com.br id 91a30.wrk; Mon, 19 Jan > 1998 18:13:08 GMT-0300 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >Message-ID: <01bd251e$eb34e200$LocalHost at default> >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:12:15 -0200 >Reply-To: Indology >Sender: Indology >From: winnie >Subject: Re: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >>Besides Yiddish, that mere "German patois" by some pompous ignoramuses, >>is also a language that has been the medium of several great writers >>(one of them a Nobel Prize winner) and of an important culture. > > >How much affected and violent in language certain people get when not >everyone accept fully what they believe to be truth. For me a translation in >Hebrew would have quite sense, but not much in Yidish, a disapearing, >second language , no doubt a patois and a german dialect, an exclusive >vehicle for communication only between members of a certain community >without any universal aim. That's why it sounds strange to me and don't come >with that old paranoid talk of anti-semitism. > >I am not to judge who is paranoidic or an antisemite, but I hold great appreciation to Yiddish, the language my ancestors spoke and in which great works were written. In fact there are several translations of the Gita in Hebrew. Three that I koww of are the works of prof. E. Olswanger, S. Kalo, and the translation of Swami Prabhupada's bhashia of the Gita. Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Jan 20 08:54:03 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 03:54:03 -0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227034897.23782.1094315808344026131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-19 03:50:58 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << Old Ta. uvaRu has no cognate in any other Drav. language. But u:Ru (> Setting aside the example of "uvaRu" to be taken up later, let me quote examples from DED, Madras University Lexicon (which is available now on-line at the Cologne IITS web site which can be easily checked), and his own Telugu Verbal Bases, which I hope Dr. Krishnamurthy will accept. (I do not have access to DEDR today. So let me use examples from DED. If these are different from DEDR, we can consider them later.) DED 2794 tuvaRal - raining, drizzling, sprinkling tURal - drizzling DEDS 525 tukaL - dust, particle of dust, pollen; tUL - dust, powder, particle, pollen TVB 750 niva - to rise, become high (puRanAn2Uru), grow (kalittokai); spread, swell, overflow (paripATal) nIttam - flood (from *nivattam) The reconstructed form is based on the paripATal reference Krishnamurthy seems to have used (paripAtal 12.34). The paripATal text is "nivantatu nIttam". The connection cannot be more clear. The meanings of individual words are: nivantatu - rose nITTam - flood (i.e., that which rose) In the following pair, the first item is left out of DED for no reason. nivaRu - to be powdered (Madras University Lexicon) nIRu - dust, ash (DED 3060) In TVB, Krishnamurthy uses only the contracted form "nIRu" for Tamil. For Telugu, he uses both "nivuRu" and "nIRu". If he had also used the non- contracted form in Tamil "nivaRu", he could have easily seen that his model did not work. The contracted form in both Tamil and Telugu are the same "nIRu", even though the second vowel is "a" in Tamil and "u" in Telugu. Thus in each of the cases involving "u", the attested contracted form is "U" while Krishnamurthy's model would predict "O" in Tamil. Similarly, in each of the cases involving "i", the attested contracted form is "I", while Krishnamurthy's model would predict "E". Therefore, the model is not valid. If you remember, the model calls for a *total and complete* change of PDr phonemes "i", "e", "u", and "o" to "e" and "o". It is enough for me to show just one case where the rule does not apply to prove my case. I have shown more than that. That many Dravidian linguists have accepted Krishnamurthy's formulation may be due to two reasons. Either linguists with the required knowledge of Tamil did not address this issue or those linguists who addressed the issue did not have the required knowledge of Tamil. I do not know why else the problem in the model could not have been realized until now. < -y-/-0- is found. >> I do not say that Vedic borrowed from SDr. Given the fact that the weakening of intervocalic "-c-" is traced to Proto-Dravidian, it is certainly possible to have the "-y-" form in the dialect encountered by Vedic. Thus, even with a *kucava form, my etymology will hold good. As for the process of one-way change of "-c-" to "-y-", is it universal? Then, can somebody explain the following? In DED, we find the following. *kAy, to grow hot, burn, etc. - Ta. kAy; Ma. kAyuka to be hot, To. ko.y- (ko.c-) to be hot; Tu. kAyuni to be hot; Go. kAsAnA to become hot. *koy, to pluck leaves, flowers, reap, harvest, etc. - Ta. koy; Ko. koy- (koc-) to cut; To. kwIy- (kwIs-) to pluck fruits, Go. kOiyAna harvest wheat or crops, etc., (M) koidAna to reap; Kur. khoynA (khoss-) to cut down grass and the like with the sickle, mow, reap *kAy and *koy are PDr forms reconstructed by Dr. Krishnamurthy in his TVB. Clearly, we have here "y" changing to "c"/"s"/"t". In what way, is the "kuyava"/"kucava" problem different, if we assume "kuy" is the base? Now why do I say, "kuy" might be a possible base. There is a stock Tamil expression which is considered by Madras University lexicon as just onomatopoetic expression signifying loud complaint. The expression is "kuyyO muRaiyO" describing how one laments. It can be interpreted as consisting of two words. The second word "muRaiyO" means "Is it lawful/just?". ("muRai" means law or justice.) The first part can be interpreted as "O kuy!" calling for "kuy". If the original meaning of "kuy" was "some higher authority like king or chief", it will make perfect sense. After all, from whom will one seek justice? This is not as outlandish as one might think. Consider the interjection of grief "aiyO". DEDR considers this related to the word "ai" meaning "lord, master, husband, king, guru, priest, teacher, father". So DEDR lists the two words as 196 (b) and 196 (a) respectively. The meaning of "kuyyO" has not been understood till now. Ultimately, this "kuy" may be related to "ku" meaning "high place" (or hill as Dr. Krishnamurthy pointed out) which can also be applied to a king. Compare the parallel similar concepts in Sanskrit "ka'kuda" Finally, I do agree that reconstructed words can help decide on a linguistic situation. Otherwise there is no way one can say Vedic borrowed anything from Dravidian. My reason of stating the chronology of "kuyava" vs "kucava" was to correct a factual error and satisfy my curiosity as to when "kucava" ever entered the literary world from the colloquial. I think I have tried to satisfactorily answer the questions/concerns raised regarding the issue. As always, I welcome comments. Regards S. Palaniappan From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jan 20 12:31:07 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 10:31:07 -0200 Subject: Samvega Message-ID: <161227034903.23782.13766194542540128258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Among the basic concepts of Indian aesthetics, such as rasa, vismaya, etc - there is one which remains problematic to me: samvega. Would someone elaborate on this ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 20 09:53:45 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 10:53:45 +0100 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034901.23782.4490747268588809975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:55 19.01.98 -0200, you wrote: > Let me remind >>you that Hebrew startet out at the beginning of this century even "deader" >>than Yiddish is today. Dying languages can be brought back to life. >> >Yes but Hebrew was ( and is ) a language which is deeply rooted in the >foundations of Jewish mind and culture, being its very linguistical >archetype, intrinsically connected with its various expressions. Not so with >Yidish, which derives from a language with a largely different set of >values. Before this turns into the Yiddish List, I'll allow myself one final remark since your description of Hebrew reminds me of old-fashioned language mysticism. Yiddish is a mixture of Hebrew, German and Slavonic languages, spoken before the Holocaust by approximately 10 million people in Eastern Europe. It has a 1000 year old history and was spoken exclusively by Jews. In this period, Hebrew was first and foremost a ceremonial language, like Latin in the Catholic Church. Yiddish is now a dying language for two historical reasons: 1) the Holocaust, which killed a great many Yiddish speakers, and 2) the language policies of the Jewish State, which chose a modernised form of Hebrew as the national language and wanted to get rid of "the language of the gettos". Not all Jews are equally happy about this, because Yiddish represents a living literary and cultural tradition that is very, very Jewish. Languages, by the way, do not have values. They transmit values. A language is just a neutral agent. Yiddish is just as rooted in the foundations of the Jewish mind and culture as Hewbrew, even if many modern Jews want to disown it. As it is today, Yiddish seems mostly to be used by ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel and the US. But there are Jews trying to revive the culture and to give Yiddish a broader platform than the ultra-orthodox one. And from what I read in the newspaper today, Yiddish songs are still popular in Israel. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jan 20 13:46:58 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 11:46:58 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita ) Message-ID: <161227034911.23782.2436097484748049690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You wrote: ---- >Languages, by the way, do not have values. They transmit values. A >language is just a neutral agent. I disagree with this statement. Not seldom the words of a language which served as tool for transmitting concepts belonging to the Weltanschauung of a culture may become the very substance, the very abstract object conceived.So the words and consequently the language incorporate values.Not even metalanguages as that of, say, P?nini in his Asht?dhyay?, are that neutral. Best regards From jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Tue Jan 20 16:53:58 1998 From: jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (jp_stephens) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 11:53:58 -0500 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034917.23782.12110545589272022267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Who is to say one language is not of value, be it dead, dying or alive. I thought this is a list for people on an intellectual quest. How can intellect survive amidst prejudice? Yiddish is alive and well among people that love it and those that have no need for it can stand aside. I'm sure every language started out as an "exclusive vehicle of communication between members of a certain community". Didn't yours? If translation of Gita into Yiddish does not make sense to you, so be it. I'm sure it makes perfect sense to many. You are entitled to your opinion, but let's not air our prejudices on this list. Its place is perhaps another forum. Sujatha > > -----Original Message----- From: winnie To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: January 19, 1998 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) >--- > >> Let me remind >>>you that Hebrew startet out at the beginning of this century even "deader" >>>than Yiddish is today. Dying languages can be brought back to life. >>> >>Yes but Hebrew was ( and is ) a language which is deeply rooted in the >>foundations of Jewish mind and culture, being its very linguistical >>archetype, intrinsically connected with its various expressions. Not so >with >>Yidish, which derives from a language with a largely different set of >>values. >> >>>And by the way, I am not Jewish, and I will be very cross with anybody who >>>accuses me of being politically correct. >>> >>>Best regards, >>> >>Well in that case it's just your own problem. > > >Best regards also ( och jag verkligen hoppas Ni icke missf?rsta mig . I >sj?lva verket jag var bara f?rvanad ) > > From CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA Tue Jan 20 17:07:19 1998 From: CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (R.P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 12:07:19 -0500 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034920.23782.13100063576570924776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About the Song of Bhagavad some wag did wax: >My God, who on earth would be interested in reading this classical textext = > in a german patois ? To which Sara the Quick of Wit did respond: > Yiddish is a literary language in which thousands of books have been > written. guage You think the German patois the gentleman was referring to was Yiddish? I just assumed he was talking about English. Anglo-Saxonically yers, Rickard Horselove of the Hay From kskora at POST.CIS.SMU.EDU Tue Jan 20 19:17:10 1998 From: kskora at POST.CIS.SMU.EDU (Kerry M. Skora) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 13:17:10 -0600 Subject: DPalatino Font Message-ID: <161227034922.23782.8846999292062324748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would any one know where the latest version of the DPalatino font [used for transliteration] might be purchased? Thank you. Sincerely, Kerry Martin Skora Department of Religious Studies Southern Methodist University kskora at post.cis.smu.edu From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 20 12:10:56 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 14:10:56 +0200 Subject: Sindhi sailing vessels Message-ID: <161227034907.23782.1237054715310097612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I would like to thank all my helpful colleagues who sent me information on Sindhi sailing vessels. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 20 12:23:36 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 14:23:36 +0200 Subject: Recorded Hindi conversations Message-ID: <161227034909.23782.13246048460270628273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, We are arranging language-laboratory practice for students of Hindi and would be very grateful for information about audio tapes of Hindi conversational material (with accompanying text) which we might be able to order. If the recorded conversations accompany a textbook, and/or are accompanied by drill or exercise materials, that would be even more useful. With many thanks (as usual!), and best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 20 14:59:04 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 15:59:04 +0100 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita ) Message-ID: <161227034913.23782.13354028078577557745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Languages, by the way, do not have values. They transmit values. A >>language is just a neutral agent. > >I disagree with this statement. Not seldom the words of a language >which served as tool for transmitting concepts belonging to the >Weltanschauung of a culture may become the very substance, >the very abstract object conceived.So the words and consequently >the language incorporate values.Not even metalanguages as that of, say, >P?nini in his Asht?dhyay?, are that neutral. I would still claim that any language, in terms of grammar and morphology, is capable of transmitting any value system. The problem is, of course, the vocabulary and concepts connected with the culture, as you say. However, vocabularies are not static. They develop, partly through loans, partly through the development of new meanings to words. Thus, a language that at a given moment in time lacks the words or concepts necessary to express a certain set of values, can be made to do so over time, just as it can loose the ability to express values it could express before. My point is: You have to see language as a flexible system. To use Yiddish as an example: Used for a 1000 years by Jews, and only by Jews, it would of course have all the concepts necessary to express Jewish values. However, if you convinced the British upper class to use Yiddish instead of the Queen's English, it could equally well be manipulated to express English upper class values. The same argument applies to any other language. Consequently, I will still maintain that a language is a neutral agent. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Jan 20 22:11:41 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 16:11:41 -0600 Subject: Naciketas-3 Message-ID: <161227034927.23782.17712223778832216975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Shalom to all, > >Thanks for the responses to my previous messages. Naciketas is actually >quite a neglected hero of the Hindu scripturtes and he deserves being >treated, on the Internet and otherwise. > >One of the minor issues that I deal with in my work is the meaning of >his name -"Naciketas". Traditionally it was believed to mean "someone >who does not know", according to the division of the name "na+ciketas". >This iterpretation was accepted by Bohtlingk, and other interpreters, >European and Indian (Radhakrishnan, Whitney, Helfer, and others), >assuming that the name is derived from the Sanskrit root"cit", which >means "to know". Wadhwani also derives the meaning of the name from >"cit", but says that the meaning of "Naciketas" is "someone who knows", >as the term "na-vedas" in the Rgveda, thus opposing tacitly the >traditional interpretation. > Charpentier is most original and does not derive the meaning of the >name from "cit" or knowledge. He reads the name (following Wackernagel) >as "naci+ketas", parallel to Kamadeva's name - "Makaraketu", and hence >similar to the name "Svetaketu" of the Chandogya Upanisad. > >I shall be very grateful for any comments, information and sources, >concerning the name Naciketas, or/and any clarification concerning the >term "naci" and its affinity to "nakra" or "nakraa". > >I have sent a similar note to the "Sanskrit Digest List". My appologies >to those who have received it twice. > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Amos Nevo >14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem >96746 >ISRAEL >fAX. 972 2 6419215 > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Dear Amos, did you have a chance to look up Manfred Mayhofer's Etymolog. Dictionary? Edeltraud. Edeltraud Harzer Clear Asian Studies UT at Austin Texas. From oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR Tue Jan 20 22:07:16 1998 From: oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR (Boris Oguibenine) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 17:07:16 -0500 Subject: Bibliography of South Asian linguistics, 1998 Message-ID: <161227034915.23782.10390512577235582528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:14:27 +0100, wieson wrote: >Hello! > >I am currently compiling a bilbiography on South Asian linguistics >conducted by scholars residing/working in Europe for the 'Yearbook of South >Asian Languages and Linguistics' (ed. by Rajendra Singh, Montreal), which >will be published next year by Sage Publications, Delhi. >Last year concentrated mainly on Hindi-Urdu and Himalayan research. The >main emphasis of this year's bibliography for Europe will be on historical >linguistics - of all the language families of the sub-continent. In >addition, work done in the last year (1997) on ANY aspect of South Asian >linguistics will be included under a separate heading. > >I would like to ask all scholars residing in Europe who have done research >in the 1990's on historical aspects of any South Asian language who would >like to have this information included in the bibliography - as well as any >research done on any aspect concerning these languages in the last year - >to send me the relevant information at the address below by January 23, >1998 at the very latest. I am especially interested in research done AFTER >1993 (the last year covered by the Bibliographie Linguistique) as well as >any literature which may have been overseen there. Please be sure to >include all relevant information (especially issue no., page nos., etc., >with journals). > >Please pass this message along to any of your colleagues who may be >interested. > >Thanks in advance for your help! > >John Peterson >Seminar f!r Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft >Universit!t Z!rich >Switzerland >Fax-Nr. (+41)-1-634 49 10 >Email: (preferably:) peterson at spw.unizh.ch >or wieson at rainbow.ch A recent publication which you might be willing to include in your bibliography: Boris Oguibenine, Initiation a l'etude pratique du sanskrit bouddhique, Paris, Picard, 1996. Regards, B.O. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 20 13:15:09 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 18:15:09 +0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227034905.23782.4456656591859848163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:54 20/01/98 EST, you wrote: >DED 2794 >tuvaRal - raining, drizzling, sprinkling >tURal - drizzling > Exceptions do not invalidate rules. DEDR 3398. In the case of Ta. tuvaR-: tu:R-, there is no guarantee that the underlying V2 was a and not i or u.Here the ultimate root seems to be *tum- which occurs in a closed syllable (cf. Tel. tumpara, tuppara); Tamil has tum-i 'drizzle'. The order of change was *tum-V- >*tuw-V- > tu:-. If you go through the DED or DEDR you can see scores of cases where the quality of the formative vowel is variable; since I showed contrasts mik-al >me:l, but mik-u >mi: type, the uderlying form wherever there is V1 lengthened without changing its quality, the suffix vowel has got to be a high vowel; thus Telugu nivuRu > ni:Ru is better explained than taking Ta. nivaRu and saying that the rule is invalidated.You need to judge the other cases in the same light. There are several etymologies given in TVB 40 years ago which need to be changed. Please note there was no DED when I worked out these etymologies. In reconstruction we set up intermediate stages on the basis of established correlations or patterns, e.g. pesar > peyar > pe:r; similarly mosaru > *moyar (no where attested) > mo:r (DEDR 4902)(Ta.has mocar, mo:r, Ma. mo:r,Ko. Ka. have the c/s forms); in terms of natural phonology, without the intermediate y form, you cannot have contraction. Since it is not attested you cannot call the rule is invalid. >As for the process of one-way change of "-c-" to "-y-", is it universal? Then, >can somebody explain the following? In DED, we find the following. >*kAy, to grow hot, burn, etc. - Ta. kAy; Ma. kAyuka to be hot, To. ko.y- (ko.c-) to be hot; Tu. kAyuni to be hot; Go. kAsAnA to become hot. >*koy, to pluck leaves, flowers, reap, harvest, etc. - Ta. koy; Ko. koy- (koc-) >to cut; To. kwIy- (kwIs-) to pluck fruits, Go. kOiyAna harvest wheat or crops, >etc., (M) koidAna to reap; Kur. khoynA (khoss-) to cut down grass and the >like with the sickle, mow, reap >*kAy and *koy are PDr forms reconstructed by Dr. Krishnamurthy in his TVB. >Clearly, we have here "y" changing to "c"/"s"/"t". In what way, is the >"kuyava"/"kucava" problem different, if we assume "kuy" is the base? Go. ka:s is a restuctured stem from the past ka:si:, just like Modern Telugu has ka:s-tu:; I discussed elsewhere how the roots have incorporated tense morphemes and got restructured. (Also discussed in TVB); in the case of koy what you find in parenthese are past stems with c/t in Sandhi. Kota koy-t --> koc; so also Toda; Kur. khoss- is past stem; -ss- is past tense marker in Kur-Malto. >Now why do I say, "kuy" might be a possible base. There is a stock Tamil >expression which is considered by Madras University lexicon as just >onomatopoetic expression signifying loud complaint. The expression is "kuyyO >muRaiyO" describing how one laments. It can be interpreted as consisting of >two words. The second word "muRaiyO" means "Is it lawful/just?". ("muRai" >means law or justice.) The first part can be interpreted as "O kuy!" calling >for "kuy". If the original meaning of "kuy" was "some higher authority like >king or chief", it will make perfect sense. After all, from whom will one seek >justice? Telugu also has kuyyo: moRRo:; This root kuy- is related to PD *ku: 'crow, cry, shout, call' etc. How in the world can it be the basis of kuy-awa.. 'potter' on this root? >This is not as outlandish as one might think. Consider the interjection of >grief "aiyO". DEDR considers this related to the word "ai" meaning "lord, >master, husband, king, guru, priest, teacher, father". So DEDR lists the two >words as 196 (b) and 196 (a) respectively. The meaning of "kuyyO" has not been >understood till now. Ultimately, this "kuy" may be related to "ku" meaning >"high place" (or hill as Dr. Krishnamurthy pointed out) which can also be >applied to a king. Compare the parallel similar concepts in Sanskrit "ka'kuda" This I must say is imagination running riot; not the science of etymology. Thanks. Bh.K. end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: [all small letters] From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jan 20 22:59:31 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 20:59:31 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227034929.23782.11818955396712293522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---- >Languages, by the way, do not have values. They transmit values. A >language is just a neutral agent. >>I disagree with this statement. Not seldom the words of a language >>which served as tool for transmitting concepts belonging to the >>Weltanschauung of a culture may become the very substance, >>the very abstract object conceived.So the words and consequently >>the language incorporate values.Not even metalanguages as that of, say, >>P?nini in his Asht?dhyay?, are that neutral. > >I would still claim that any language, in terms of grammar and morphology, >is capable of transmitting any value system. > >The problem is, of course, the vocabulary and concepts connected with the >> There you are. >However, if you convinced the British upper class to use Yiddish >instead of the Queen's English, it could equally well be manipulated to >express English upper class values. The same argument applies to any other >language. >Consequently, I will still maintain that a language is a neutral agent. > This question could lead us to the indian speculations about language. The spotha theory, for example. The ancient philosophy of grammar treated this highly important topic in connection with the theory of eternal sounds, etc. But just to remain more close to modern western paradigm I would like to point out that the values to be transmitted by any language- neutral as you say- are not always very well transmitted. Values are also underlying intentions or constitutents ( to use Adorno's aesthetic terminology ). Thus Joyces Ulysses translated into German lost terribly in its underlying values ( rythm, richness of images, interplay of sounds, etc ). The same is valid for the Japanese translations of the Finnegans Wake ( there are three of them ). That's a heroic tour de force and quite a linguistic chalenge. Great merit, but perhaps dangerous in the case of certain classical texts if there is not a reservoir of similar concepts capable to match. Not a few of the early ( and even later ) translations of Chinese classics into European languages were disastrous, to say the least.Those translators didn't have living matching concepts to do a proper job ( they didn't have often also the intention, since if they did it would mean to contest and put at stake their own christian values ).I do believe the G?t? must have been translated into Yiddish by highly intellectual people ( although I didn't check it yet :-) ) and all the efforts were for sure done in order to bring as close as possible such a universe of different philosophical concepts as that of the Hindu civilization aiming at specific audience of readers. But still it sounds exotic to me and that's the reason for my initial remark. Best regards From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jan 20 23:10:19 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 21:10:19 -0200 Subject: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) Message-ID: <161227034931.23782.17090284898523486406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Who is to say one language is not of value, be it dead, dying or alive. I >thought this is a list for people on an intellectual quest. How can >intellect survive amidst prejudice? Yiddish is alive and well among people >that love it and those that have no need for it can stand aside. > >I'm sure every language started out as an "exclusive vehicle of >communication >between members of a certain community". Didn't yours? > >If translation of Gita into Yiddish does not make sense to you, so be it. >I'm sure it makes perfect sense to many. You are entitled to your opinion, >but let's >not air our prejudices on this list. Its place is perhaps another forum. >Sujatha > >>Y?sya n?sti sv?yam pragy? >>t?sya sh?stram kim karoti > >-----Original Message----- >From: winnie >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: January 19, 1998 9:44 PM >Subject: Re: Yiddish translation of Gita (?) > > >>--- >> >>> Let me remind >>>>you that Hebrew startet out at the beginning of this century even >"deader" >>>>than Yiddish is today. Dying languages can be brought back to life. >>>> >>>Yes but Hebrew was ( and is ) a language which is deeply rooted in the >>>foundations of Jewish mind and culture, being its very linguistical >>>archetype, intrinsically connected with its various expressions. Not so >>with >>>Yidish, which derives from a language with a largely different set of >>>values. >>> >>>>And by the way, I am not Jewish, and I will be very cross with anybody >who >>>>accuses me of being politically correct. >>>> >>>>Best regards, >>>> >>>Well in that case it's just your own problem. >> >> >>Best regards also ( och jag verkligen hoppas Ni icke missf?rsta mig . I >>sj?lva verket jag var bara f?rvanad ) >> >> From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 21 04:20:36 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 22:20:36 -0600 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034933.23782.13668563861180804646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was watching a program called Nova on PBS about some mummies found in Western China and Tajikistan. The program was hosted by a Asian Studies Prof from Univ of Penn called Victor Meyer (not sure of the spelling). The mummies were about 2000 years old (i.e If I heard right). He called these people the "Tukarians" - which sounds pretty close to "uttara kuru". Also, this region is exactly north of the Kuru region in India. There were lot of wall paintings of people with a tilak. The mummies were more Caucasian than Chinese, also they had woolen clothes with designs which look exactly like Scottish kilts !! Another fascinating thing was a large bow that was shown, the shape of the bow looked exactly like what is shown on mythological soaps on TV in India (I am NOT kidding!! ). I had always thought bows of that shape would never work in real life !! Can anyone shed more light on these archeological finds. Subrahmanya From roheko at MSN.COM Tue Jan 20 21:49:59 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 22:49:59 +0100 Subject: 2 Questions Message-ID: <161227034924.23782.17274153256610067265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do you probably mean the Skt word for synonym egaartha (Pkt egaTTha)? -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: S Krishna An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Dienstag, 20. Januar 1998 06:24 Betreff: 2 Questions >Dear INDOLOGISTS, >I have two questions for you: >1. Is there a word/grammatical classification to describe two separate >Samskrt words which have the same meaning(paryAya pada) and the >spellings are slight variants of each other? i.e. pr`thvI and pr`ithivI >mean "earth" and the spelling is slightly different, but both are >separate words. >Other examples are : mukunda and mucukunda( both mean "viSNu"), >vasudhA and vasundharA( both mean "earth") and probably zabarI and >zaurI ( the lady who appears in the rAmAyaNa, though I'm not sure if >"zaurI" can mean "zabarI"). How have these words been derived?( spelling >is nearly the same but the words are treated as separate) > >2. Can anyone point me towards the derivation/origins of the word "AI"( >mother) in marATHI and assamese? The word AFAIK does not exist in Hindi >and Bengali( the languages spoken in between Maharashtra and >Assam) but is strangely present in these two geographically >discontinuous areas. Are there any other examples of such words? > >Regards, >Krishna > >_________________________________________________ _____ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Jan 21 12:11:15 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 07:11:15 -0500 Subject: GODS HELPLINE(fwd) Message-ID: <161227034943.23782.6001997515807149340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I thought you may enjoy reading this! Madhav Deshpande ---------- Forwarded message -------- All of us have, at sometime or other been in the doldrums.... At such times, we, turn to the GODS for help.... In modern times however, with changing times, all the GODS have E-Mail so that the likes of us can ask for their help easily.... The following are the E-Mail addresses, if you were ever to need them.... If you wanted to get rid of obstacles in your way, you should mail to: ganesha at kailasa.OnMouse.com If you wanted to "create" something.... anything, you should mail to: brahma at satyaloka.OnLotus.com If you wanted help with anything at all, you should try: vishnu at vaikunTHa.OnAdishesha.com If you wanted to destroy any thing, then your destination is: rudra at kailasa.OnNandi.com If you were in dire need of money you should try: lakshmi at vaikuntha.ByVishnu.com or kubera at swarga.com If you are in pursuit of knowledge then, saraswati at satyaloka.WithVeena.com or brihaspathi at swarga.com If you want combat evil (Rakshasas) advice can be found at: indra at swarga.OnAiravat.WithVajra.com (For ladies) If you wish your husband a long life: gowri at kailasa.com Advice for this can be found at Savitri at madradesha.com If your place is drought ridden, then you should contact: varuna at swarga.com If you are feeling very cold, then try: agni at swarga.com IF you absolutely NEED a date, then try: urvashi at swarga.withindra.com rambha at swarga.withindra.com menaka at swarga.withindra.com tilotthama at swarga.withindra.com Also can be contacted when you are feeling very down or when you want to destroy sombody's (your competitor when in school/college? concentration If you are travelling in a hot country, for a cool breeze contact: vayu at swarga.com If you are ever lost anywhere in the world, contact: Ashtadikpalakas at swarga.com If you were in the darkness light can be obtained from: Surya at Akasha.com If you were in a romantic mood then, for moonlight, contact: chandra at Akasha.com If at all you feel that your character needs a little building up, then yourhelpline would be: rama at ayodhya.com Suppose you had no access to (on-line? ) newspapers, then for keeping up with the times, try: Narada at everywhere.anywhere.com OR Narada at anywhere.anytime.com When you fall ill, instead of visiting a (very costly) doctor, try: ashwini at swarga.twins.com If ever you felt like getting something (but were not able to), you should have contacted: kamadhenu at rishiashramAs.edu or kalpavrikhsa at rishiashramas.edu Finally, if you've had enough of this world, (and enough of reading such useless things) then your contact will be: yama at yamaloka.onbuffalo.com BEST OF LUCK ...... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- The views expressed are those of the sender and do not necessarily represent the views of Northwest Airlines, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Sumedh Thakar Patni Computer Systems Ltd., INDIA Software Tech. Park, MIDC, Bhosari, Pune 411 026 E-mail: thakarss at pcsbom.patni.com Tel : [O] +91-212-792727 +91-212-799125 Ext: 271 [R] +91-212-337069 Fax : [O] +91-212-791882 Home Page: http://www.patni.com From jage at LOC.GOV Wed Jan 21 14:40:36 1998 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 09:40:36 -0500 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: <1998120231644341@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227034947.23782.8614197108404787732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > I was watching a program called Nova on PBS about some mummies > found in Western China and Tajikistan. The program was hosted by > a Asian Studies Prof from Univ of Penn called Victor Meyer > (not sure of the spelling). His name is Victor H. Mair; I believe he teaches Chinese there. I do not know his Internet address; a U. of Penn. indologist on this list might know. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Wed Jan 21 16:26:20 1998 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 10:26:20 -0600 Subject: Being Digital? Message-ID: <161227034950.23782.9217088609357194260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, In the award-winning Tamil documentary on sculpture (including a first-ever filming of an eye-opening ceremony for a stone Ganesh image), Sthapati Ganapati Shastri of Mamallapuram makes the following claim, quoted here verbatim from the subtitles: _What we worship is numbers. Truly the universe can be contained in numbers. The cosmic centre replicates in rhythm and order, It is this order that is illustrated in architecture. The Thalam measures are converted... to corresponding measures in the structure. Architecture is really the pinnacle of mathematics. The building is the very form of the measures. The building too is worthy of worship. That is why during the consecration of a temple, the holy water is poured on the 'kalasam' (spire)... and not on the idol in the sanctum-sanctorum._ from _Vaastu Marabu_, by Bala Kailasam, producer: Min Bimbangal, 1992 [Best Arts and Cultural Film, 38th National film festival, New Delhi] My question is whether the opening lines might be substantiated by citation of any traditional Indian texts? Is the statement reminiscent at all of anything in Vedic zulba or Shaiva Agamas, or any mathematical treatises, by any chance? Or has the esteemed sthapati, on the side, been reading Plato, or Nicholas Negroponte of the MIT Media Lab? Just wondering, before having to tell undergradutes who saw the film what to make of it all. Thanks in anticipation of any vague recollections or specific proof texts some of you might be able to offer without going to any trouble, Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University & The School of the Art Institue of Chicago From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jan 21 10:07:43 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 11:07:43 +0100 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034935.23782.386811794374626014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >There were lot of wall paintings of people with a tilak. The >mummies were more Caucasian than Chinese, also they had woolen >clothes with designs which look exactly like Scottish kilts !! >Another fascinating thing was a large bow that was shown, the >shape of the bow looked exactly like what is shown on mythological >soaps on TV in India (I am NOT kidding!! ). I had always thought >bows of that shape would never work in real life !! > >Can anyone shed more light on these archeological finds. I believe the journal Discover ran an article on these mummies (they were called Tocharians) some time ago (make that perhaps 1-2 years). Check back numbers of Discover! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jan 21 10:40:04 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 11:40:04 +0100 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227034937.23782.16759432613685576697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Consequently, I will still maintain that a language is a neutral agent. >> >This question could lead us to the indian speculations about language. The >spotha theory, for example. The ancient philosophy of grammar treated this >highly important topic in connection with the theory of eternal sounds, etc. >But just to remain more close to modern western paradigm I would like to >point out that the values to be transmitted by any language- neutral as you >say- are not always very well transmitted. Values are also underlying >intentions or constitutents ( to use Adorno's aesthetic terminology ). In my opinion, this is a slightly different discussion. Language corresponds to culture and is able to express the feelings and attitudes you find in a given culture at any given time. Yet I would claim that a modern Norwegian could communicate without serious linguistic problems with a Norwegian living 100 years ago (in terms of being understood semantically) in spite of the fact that values and attitudes have changed tremendously since 1898. But of course there would be some problems caused by a number of underlying assumptions (pragmatics). The question is: is this "language", or is it something else? However, to follow the thread you suggest, an interesting phenomenon is the elaborate "respect" categories that some languages have (Japanese, some Indic languages). To express similar things in e.g. a Scandinavian language would be very difficult, since these languages do not have such elaborate expressions of hierarchy built into the language, not for that matter into the culture. A popular parody of such language in Norway is the story of the Japanese business man who had insufficient knowledge of English business culture, and ended a business letter by saying "I remain your abjectly humble servant and kiss the dust in front of your feet". Which should be "yours sincerely". But again, is this simply language? >Thus Joyces Ulysses translated into German lost terribly in its underlying >values ( rythm, richness of images, interplay of sounds, etc ). The same is >valid for the Japanese translations of the Finnegans Wake ( there are three >of them ). That's a heroic tour de force and quite a linguistic chalenge. Obviously. Poetry is particularly difficult to translate. But I am not sure if this has to do with values. >Great merit, but perhaps dangerous in the case of certain classical texts if >there is not a reservoir of similar concepts capable to match. Not a few of >the early ( and even later ) translations of Chinese classics into >European languages were disastrous, to say the least.Those translators >didn't have living matching concepts to do a proper job ( they didn't have >often also the intention, since if they did it would mean to contest and >put at stake their own christian values ). This is definitely a different problem. I would claim that you could translate correctly from Chinese if you have concepts available to match the Chinese, but in practical life, you would have to use footnotes to explain the Chinese concepts (which is a way of introducing new concepts into a language). As for Chinese classics and the Christian values, that is not a translation - or a language - problem, but a question of prudery or prejudice. A number of texts that were incorrectly translated before, can now be translated correctly because ethics and atttitudes have changed. They could have been translated correctly 50 or 100 years ago, too, but this was impossible for cultural reasons. The language was there, but not the tolerance for what the texts actually had to say. I do believe the G?t? must have >been translated into Yiddish by highly intellectual people ( although I >didn't check it yet :-) ) and all the efforts were for sure done in order to >bring as close as possible such a universe of different philosophical >concepts as that of the Hindu civilization aiming at specific audience of >readers. But still it sounds exotic to me and that's the reason for my >initial remark. I am not sure how to interpret this remark. Any translation of the Gita is necessarily aimed at an audience of intellectuals or people with special religious interests. But this is true of any book: they are all aimed at a more or less precisely defined audiences, such as soccer fans, angling enthousiasts or outdoor freaks. Or some kind of intellectuals. You seem to be surprised that Yiddish speakers should have other interests than what goes on in their shtetl, but given that Yiddish was spoken by a very large group of people, there should theoretically be at least a small group with unconventional interests. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From W.Behr at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.D400.DE Wed Jan 21 11:05:34 1998 From: W.Behr at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.D400.DE (Wolfgang Behr) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 12:05:34 +0100 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: <1998120231644341@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227034939.23782.5865486995022641551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following websites contain information on the "Xinjiang mummies" (re)discovered by Professor Victor Mair of UPenn.: http://sln.fi.edu/inquirer/mummy.html http://www.silk-road.com http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~jkimball/conf.info.html I remember reading that someone recently established a homepage devoted exclusively to the scholarly sources & the fast growing lore around the Xinjiang mummies, but I can't seem to find the exact whereabouts of that site. The best starting point for serious information on the mummies is a special volume of the Journal of Indo-European Studies (1996) edited by Mair. Also watch out for the Proceedings of a conference devoted to the topic (The Bronze Age and Iron Age People of Eastern Central Asia) soon to be published by Mair and his colleagues. Cheers, Wolfgang ps: No link _whatsoever_ with Uttarakuru =================================================================== Wolfgang Behr, Research Fellow International Institute for Asian Studies, Leiden, The Netherlands e-mail: wbehr at rullet.leidenuniv.nl, w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de =================================================================== From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 21 17:16:21 1998 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 12:16:21 -0500 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: <1998120231644341@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227034954.23782.6221509933610682641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I was watching a program called Nova on PBS about some mummies >found in Western China and Tajikistan. The program was hosted by >a Asian Studies Prof from Univ of Penn called Victor Meyer >(not sure of the spelling). ... > >Can anyone shed more light on these archeological finds. > >Subrahmanya Victor Mair is Professor of Chinese Literature at the University of Pennsylvania. Email: vmair at sas.upenn.edu Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From Frank.vandenbossche at RUG.AC.BE Wed Jan 21 11:41:36 1998 From: Frank.vandenbossche at RUG.AC.BE (Frank Van Den Bossche) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 12:41:36 +0100 Subject: aage naath ... Message-ID: <161227034941.23782.16773475335561846716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology list, Does anyone know the literal meaning of the Hindi saying 'aage naath na piichhe pagahaa' rendered as 'to have neither home nor hearth' or 'to be without any near and dear ones'? Thanks in advance. Frank Van Den Bossche University of Ghent, Belgium frank.vandenbossche at rug.ac.be From Mak at THEPENTAGON.COM Wed Jan 21 13:25:36 1998 From: Mak at THEPENTAGON.COM (Mak P Makielan) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 13:25:36 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227034945.23782.10844725283664214595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> unsubscibe From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Wed Jan 21 19:25:22 1998 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 15:25:22 -0400 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034958.23782.8484660147126949797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This was an interesting program. Some of the pictures on the cave walls reminded me of Buddha. Also, the TILAK or BINDI on the forehead suggests that this may have HINDU connection. However the text did not mention anything on this possibility. Ancient indian travel to central asia are recorded. Jay. From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Wed Jan 21 19:35:48 1998 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 15:35:48 -0400 Subject: GODS HELPLINE(fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034960.23782.8145572693851353956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By having them as *.com *, they become a business. I thought most of them are free services. Should they be * .org * or * .gov *. Jay jay form Jay. From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Wed Jan 21 23:36:19 1998 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 15:36:19 -0800 Subject: Poison Message-ID: <161227034964.23782.4231050598754149607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi there Indologists, I was wondering if any of you savants in the field of Ayurveda and rasAyanazAstra would be familiar with any of the following terms, all of which are supposedly poisons: (1) amiras, Amirasa (2) isvarya ras, IzvarIya rasa (3) kulkarn, kunkAn All of these words were heard orally and are thus likely incorrectly spelt. Any information to any reasonable approximation to any of these terms would be helpful. Thanking you sincerely, Jan Brzezinski From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Wed Jan 21 19:48:06 1998 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 15:48:06 -0400 Subject: aage naath ... In-Reply-To: <199801211141.MAA28822@allserv.rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227034962.23782.10168164096513505599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear members of the Indology list, > >Does anyone know the literal meaning of the Hindi saying 'aage naath na >piichhe pagahaa' rendered as 'to have neither home nor hearth' or 'to be >without any near and dear ones'? >Thanks in advance. > >Frank Van Den Bossche >University of Ghent, Belgium >frank.vandenbossche at rug.ac.be aage=infront, naath= nose ring, na=not (there), piichhe=behind and pagahaa=turban =helmet. General meaning is the one without anything to lose. Jay From roheko at MSN.COM Wed Jan 21 15:20:31 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 16:20:31 +0100 Subject: 2 Questions Message-ID: <161227034948.23782.5883765249925061661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did you ever think about what we learned: the most worst etymology of a word is the derivation to a root the best one in contrast is the similar derivation of a second word -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: S Krishna An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Dienstag, 20. Januar 1998 06:24 Betreff: 2 Questions >Dear INDOLOGISTS, >I have two questions for you: >1. Is there a word/grammatical classification to describe two separate >Samskrt words which have the same meaning(paryAya pada) and the >spellings are slight variants of each other? i.e. pr`thvI and pr`ithivI >mean "earth" and the spelling is slightly different, but both are >separate words. >Other examples are : mukunda and mucukunda( both mean "viSNu"), >vasudhA and vasundharA( both mean "earth") and probably zabarI and >zaurI ( the lady who appears in the rAmAyaNa, though I'm not sure if >"zaurI" can mean "zabarI"). How have these words been derived?( spelling >is nearly the same but the words are treated as separate) > >2. Can anyone point me towards the derivation/origins of the word "AI"( >mother) in marATHI and assamese? The word AFAIK does not exist in Hindi >and Bengali( the languages spoken in between Maharashtra and >Assam) but is strangely present in these two geographically >discontinuous areas. Are there any other examples of such words? > >Regards, >Krishna > >_________________________________________________ _____ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Wed Jan 21 22:47:22 1998 From: hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (RAH) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 16:47:22 -0600 Subject: aage naath ... In-Reply-To: <199801211141.MAA28822@allserv.rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227034968.23782.10521058648257441186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Jay Thakar's reply is slightly off. aage -- in front naath -- nose rope na -- not piiche -- behind pagahaa -- tail rope, or tether When the nose rope is on, the ox is led around and is not tied down "at home". My handy-dandy _saahityik muhaavaraa-lokokti ko"s_, by Harivamsh Ray Sharma, defines this proverb as: "sa.msaar me.m akelaa honaa" to be alone in the world, and as: "koii sagaa-sambandhii na honaa" to have no friend or relation Then he gives an example from Renu. sevaa me.m, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies phone 1 204 474-6427 fax 1 204 474-7601 From ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Jan 21 16:32:19 1998 From: ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 17:32:19 +0100 Subject: IndoTimes Roman and copyright Message-ID: <161227034952.23782.7564321127386335839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I am searching for the distributer of the TTF 'Indo Times Roman'. Can anybody provide me with information ? The second question I have is about (freely distributed) fonts (or fonts in generall) and copyrights. If I change some characters of a font, like adding characters to it, am I free to handle it as it were my own font ? Is it possible to distribute this font for an e-journal ? Thank you in advance, Arash - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arash Zeini e-mail: ar.zeini at uni-koeln.de Tel./Fax: +49-221-4303060 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Jan 21 18:24:14 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 19:24:14 +0100 Subject: Languages (was Re: Yiddish etc.) Message-ID: <161227034956.23782.6308995582010915086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>However, if you convinced the British upper class to use Yiddish >>instead of the Queen's English, it could equally well be manipulated to >>express English upper class values. The same argument applies to any other >>language. >> >>Consequently, I will still maintain that a language is a neutral agent. > >This question could lead us to the indian speculations about language. The >spotha theory, for example. sphoTa, zmoTa!... :P From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Wed Jan 21 22:37:08 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 20:37:08 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227034966.23782.294650231783809031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Language corresponds to culture and is able to express the feelings and attitudes you find in a given culture at any given time. >> In MHO only if there already exists in that language the >>concepts which the words are to match. There are many >>feelings, attitudes and also concepts which the genius of a >>given language did not yet formulated. On the other hand when >>you import concepts and feelings ( through literature, for >>instance ) from another set of experiences and >>Weltanschauunge you may find and use matching words but it >>will not have real soundness untill they match inner >>corresponding experiences, both in feelings and ideas. > Yet I would claim that a modern Norwegian >could communicate without serious linguistic problems with a >Norwegian >living 100 years ago (in terms of being understood semantically) in spite of >the fact that values and attitudes have changed tremendously since 1898. >>Well some 100 years would more or less bring us back to time >>of Ibsen's Ett Dukkehjem. The transformations which took >>place are not that tremendous, are they? >Obviously. Poetry is particularly difficult to translate. But I am not sure >if this has to do with values. >>I'm not using the word value in a moral sense, but rather closed >>to that of Bedeutungstr?ger. >This is definitely a different problem. I would claim that you >could >translate correctly from Chinese if you have concepts available >to match the Chinese... >> That's the point. "If you have..." But you cannot have it just because you found this or that word for matching. You've got to have also the underlying cultural experience in order to have resonance. That was always the problem with the purists. Victor Rydberg translated Goethe's Faust in a quite ancient Swedish, full of words from Viking's times. It was a fiasko. >... but in practical life, you would have to use footnotes to explain >the Chinese concepts (which is a way of introducing new >concepts into a language). >> Well, that's indeed a useful device. >A number of texts that were incorrectly translated before, can >now be translated correctly because ethics and atttitudes have changed. They >could have been translated correctly 50 or 100 years ago, too, but this was >impossible for cultural reasons. The language was there, but not the >tolerance for what the texts actually had to say. > >> Not only the tolerance, but also the cultural predisposition and possibility for that. >You seem to be surprised that Yiddish speakers should have >other interests than what >goes on in their shtetl, but given that Yiddish was spoken by a >very large >group of people, there should theoretically be at least a small >group with >unconventional interests. >> That's truth and I fully agree with you. From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Thu Jan 22 03:09:54 1998 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Sfauthor) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 22:09:54 -0500 Subject: IndoTimes Roman and copyright Message-ID: <161227034974.23782.949604831016218226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/21/98 6:33:16 PM, you wrote: >The second question I have is about (freely distributed) fonts (or fonts in >generall) and copyrights. If I change some characters of a font, like adding >characters to it, am I free to handle it as it were my own font ? Is it >possible to distribute this font for an e-journal ? To the best of my knowledge, fonts are not copyrightable. ("Mere" variations of the letterforms are deemed insufficiently original to merit protection.) Commercial fonts, however, typically come with license agreements. These agreements spell out what you may do with them. For a noncommercial font, try checking with the creator. -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jan 21 23:17:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 00:17:50 +0100 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227034970.23782.2452622661286085408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:37 21.01.98 -0200, you wrote: >> Language corresponds to culture and is able to express the feelings and >attitudes you find in a >given culture at any given time. > > >> Yet I would claim that a modern Norwegian >>could communicate without serious linguistic problems with a >Norwegian >>living 100 years ago (in terms of being understood semantically) in spite >of >>the fact that values and attitudes have changed tremendously since 1898. > >>>Well some 100 years would more or less bring us back to time >>of Ibsen's >Ett Dukkehjem. The transformations which took >>place are not that >tremendous, are they? The change in Norway (and Scandinavia) has been tremendous. Nora was a revolutionary. Today, 80% of all women have work outside the home. In many respects, the change in Scandinavia has been more dramatic than in other European countries, that tend to be more conservative in outlook. >>>I'm not using the word value in a moral sense, but rather closed >>to that >of Bedeutungstr?ger. When you introduce the word Bedeutungstr?ger, I feel far more comfortable with your point of view. > >>This is definitely a different problem. I would claim that you >could >>translate correctly from Chinese if you have concepts available >to match >the Chinese... > >>> That's the point. "If you have..." But you cannot have it just because >you found this or that word for matching. You've got to have also the >underlying cultural experience in order to have resonance. That was always >the problem with the purists. Victor Rydberg translated Goethe's Faust in a >quite ancient Swedish, full of words from Viking's times. It was a fiasko. > >A number of texts that were incorrectly translated before, can >>now be translated correctly because ethics and atttitudes have changed. >They >>could have been translated correctly 50 or 100 years ago, too, but this was >>impossible for cultural reasons. The language was there, but not the >>tolerance for what the texts actually had to say. >> >>> Not only the tolerance, but also the cultural predisposition and >possibility for that. That is of course true. But my point was that it would have been linguistically *possible*. All the words and concepts needed to translate oscenities, for instance, were present in English a 100 years ago. They just weren't used in print. The fact that it wasn't done, had to do with non-linguistic values, but with moral concepts (Bowdlerization of Shakespear, for instance). When I consider our discussion, I have a sneaky feeling that our disagreement is slightly artificial. I seem to be discussing something closer to "la langue", whereas you seem to be discussing something closer to "la parole" (to use Saussure's expressions). I see language as a flexible and changeable system that can be manipulated to express any given concept *over time* while still being the same language in linguistic terms, whereas you pounce upon language as it is used at a given moment in time. A practical example: The manipulation of language performed by Communists and Faschists in this century. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 22 02:10:02 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 07:10:02 +0500 Subject: Poison In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034972.23782.10229247080210283851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:36 PM 1/21/98 PST, you wrote: >Hi there Indologists, > >I was wondering if any of you savants in the field of Ayurveda and rasAyanazAstra would be familiar with any of the following terms, all of which are supposedly poisons: > >(1) amiras, Amirasa >(2) isvarya ras, IzvarIya rasa >(3) kulkarn, kunkAn > >All of these words were heard orally and are thus likely incorrectly spelt. Any information to any reasonable approximation to any of these terms would be helpful. > >Thanking you sincerely, > >Jan Brzezinski > > IzvarIya ras. Izvari is a plant,the root of which is supposed to couteract snake venom. regards, sarma. From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Jan 22 13:06:21 1998 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 08:06:21 -0500 Subject: aage naath ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034982.23782.4043422516023871105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, RAH wrote: > Mr. Jay Thakar's reply is slightly off. > > aage -- in front > naath -- nose rope > na -- not > piiche -- behind > pagahaa -- tail rope, or tether > > When the nose rope is on, the ox is led around and is not tied down "at > home". > > My handy-dandy _saahityik muhaavaraa-lokokti ko"s_, by Harivamsh Ray Sharma, > defines this proverb as: > > "sa.msaar me.m akelaa honaa" to be alone in the world, and as: > "koii sagaa-sambandhii na honaa" to have no friend or relation > > Then he gives an example from Renu. > > sevaa me.m, > Bob Hueckstedt > Although I feel the temerity of disagreeing with an official proverb dictionary, I suggest a slightly more colloquial reading would be "(Neither) a nose-ring in front, nor a tail-rope behind." The initial "na" in neither-nor constructions is VERY commonly omitted-- I can think of countless other examples in proverbs (e.g., jaan na pahcaan baRii biibii salaam), poetry, and common speech. (Whereas in an if-then or when-then construction, the "to" is almost never omitted.) And this reading very well corresponds to the meaning suggested by the dictionary. It's at least another possibility, I would say... From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Jan 22 16:21:08 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 08:21:08 -0800 Subject: Hammir Message-ID: <161227034993.23782.8902880178339383072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings Indologists, I am looking for a group of four Hindi poems written about Hammir, the Chauhan hero of Ranthambhor. Has anyone read these poems, or know of them? Does anyone know where these poems might be found? I would be grateful for any leads. Thanks in advance, Mary Storm From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Thu Jan 22 12:52:40 1998 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 08:52:40 -0400 Subject: aage naath ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034984.23782.14939563041491377001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for correcting. jay From rajamani at EE.TAMU.EDU Thu Jan 22 15:05:19 1998 From: rajamani at EE.TAMU.EDU (Shashidhar Rajamani) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:05:19 -0600 Subject: Information request - References to Indian Astronomy Message-ID: <161227034986.23782.4377238414892717890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Greetings! > > This post may not be relavent directly to advaita or to the current topics > > A friend of mine is seeking information about the chronology of the Indian > thought developement of the Astronomy including the mapping of the stars > and establishment of time scales etc. Any authentic references related to > these are welcome. Particularly when and in what form the Indian thought > development of the astronomy occurred and in what form it was documented - > either in Vedas or Vedangaas and/.or subsequent tests with possible dates > and references. > > Any help in this? Thanks - please reply to my e-mail address. His email address is sada at ANVIL.NRL.NAVY.MIL > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > > K. Sadananda > Code 6323 > Naval Research Laboratory > Washington D.C. 20375 > Voice (202)767-2117 > Fax:(202)767-2623 > From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 22 15:49:51 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:49:51 -0600 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227034988.23782.12512419605596178676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Mr. Behr for the website about Xinjiang mummies. Geographically, Tajikistan and Southern TianShan mountains are very close to India. Tajikistan is just north of Kashmir. Only the state of Kashmir lies between Punjab/Haryana and Tajikistan (a very thin slice of Afghanistan juts in). The Tajikistan/Western China region is expected to be a archeologists paradise. There is a possibility that older archeological sites may also be found. It has been found that there was Indian influence(Buddhist) in this area. There is also a possibility that there could have been pre-buddhist influence. >>ps: No link _whatsoever_ with Uttarakuru The link with uttara kuru cannot be summarily dismissed as it fits geographical description. Only future archeological findings can confirm or dismiss it. Also, on surfing the websites of the "Silk Road Foundation" and others, I found that there is hardly any representation from scholars representing the Indian point of view. This is important because the region is so close to the Indus/Saraswati region. Without proper representation of scholars from the Indian perspective there is a possibility that collected data can be retrofitted to preexisting notions rather than causing a reevaluation. Subrahmanya From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Jan 22 10:02:40 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 10:02:40 +0000 Subject: IndoTimes Roman and copyright In-Reply-To: <710c44fd.34c6b884@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034976.23782.7050612041777207208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Sfauthor wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/98 6:33:16 PM, you wrote: > > >The second question I have is about (freely distributed) fonts (or fonts in > >generall) and copyrights. If I change some characters of a font, like adding > >characters to it, am I free to handle it as it were my own font ? Is it > >possible to distribute this font for an e-journal ? > > > To the best of my knowledge, fonts are not copyrightable. ("Mere" variations > of the letterforms are deemed insufficiently original to merit protection.) > > Commercial fonts, however, typically come with license agreements. These > agreements spell out what you may do with them. For a noncommercial font, try > checking with the creator. Oh, gosh. Fonts certainly are copyrightable: the legal position is complex and varies from country to country, but you certainly can't change an existing copyright font and then treat it as your own. The place to look for info on this is the Font FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). You can get it in various places, but http://www.ora.com/homepages/comp.fonts/FAQ.html is as good as any. Very short quote from the beginning of very long discussion of this issue in part 2 of the FAQ: It has been pointed out that this section deals primarily font copyright issues relevant to the United States and that this situation is not universal. For example, in many parts of Europe typeface designs are protectable. "First, the short answer in the USA: Typefaces are not copyrightable; bitmapped fonts are not copyrightable, but scalable fonts are copyrightable. In other words, "Times Roman" is not copyright (though it is a trademark), but Adobe Times Roman is. As well as copyright, there are issues of licensing, patent (not very relevant) and trademark (applies to names of typefaces). Trying to be helpful and practical: there exist a set of high-quality Type 1 PostScript fonts which are copyright, but which are released under the terms of the GNU General Public License, which permits them to be modified and redistributed provided certain simple decencies are observed. These are the Ghostscript fonts, available as part of the Ghostscript package from large numbers of net servers. My CSX and Norman fonts are based on these, and include TrueType and PostScript versons for PC and Mac -- to find them, visit the WWW site named below and follow the "fonts" link. If these don't do what you want, you could roll your own: the same link will give you access to the program (mkt1font) that I used to build the accented versions of the fonts. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Jan 22 18:55:17 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 10:55:17 -0800 Subject: Hammir Message-ID: <161227035002.23782.14216067632693215337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear John Smith, Thanks for your help. I shall certainly dig around for the Rajasthani poetry. I think there also has to be some Hindi poetry as well. I Have found several references to a specific set of four Hindi poems on Hammir. Mary From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jan 22 11:16:09 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 11:16:09 +0000 Subject: IndoTimes Roman and copyright In-Reply-To: <199801211632.RAA105852@rs1.rrz.uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <161227034978.23782.16752713299971685754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please send queries about fonts, copyright, etc. to one of the usenet discussion groups about fonts. E.g., comp.fonts Fonts and their designs are normally protected by copyright. So they can't be copied without permission. This is usually provided in the accompanying licence, but will normally be limited in some way. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 22 17:17:18 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 11:17:18 -0600 Subject: Tocharian Message-ID: <161227034999.23782.17710059867714368436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:29 PM 1/22/98 +0000, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > >> Geographically, Tajikistan and Southern TianShan mountains are very >> close to India. Tajikistan is just north of Kashmir. > >Well, close shmose. There are formidable natural barriers between these >areas! > >Dominik > Distance wise Tajikistan is close to India than any other major places. Your point is whethar the people could have crossed these mountains. Buddhist paintings indicate that there definitely was flow of people and exchange of ideas,also Indian history is replete with instances of people sweeping down these mountains into the plains for eg:Hunas,Kushans. On a different and present day note: These days you will find a tremendous number of Tajiks and other Central Asian people flying into New Delhi for trading goods.This explosive increase in travel and trade occured after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Subrahmanya From sharmave at UNIVE.IT Thu Jan 22 12:59:24 1998 From: sharmave at UNIVE.IT (SHARMA GHANSHYAM) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 13:59:24 +0100 Subject: aage naath ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034980.23782.12766760213052310928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Hueckstedt's suggestion is quite right. To translate the Hindi saying correctly, it would be useful to add "na" in the beginning of the sentence: "(na) aage naath na piiche paghaa (pagahaa)". Ghanshyam Sharma University of Venice On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, RAH wrote: > Mr. Jay Thakar's reply is slightly off. > > aage -- in front > naath -- nose rope > na -- not > piiche -- behind > pagahaa -- tail rope, or tether > > When the nose rope is on, the ox is led around and is not tied down "at > home". > > My handy-dandy _saahityik muhaavaraa-lokokti ko"s_, by Harivamsh Ray Sharma, > defines this proverb as: > > "sa.msaar me.m akelaa honaa" to be alone in the world, and as: > "koii sagaa-sambandhii na honaa" to have no friend or relation > > Then he gives an example from Renu. > > sevaa me.m, > Bob Hueckstedt > > Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages > Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba > Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada > http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies > phone 1 204 474-6427 fax 1 204 474-7601 > From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jan 22 19:47:39 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 14:47:39 -0500 Subject: Hammir Message-ID: <161227035004.23782.3719462205255916136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You don't mention the titles of the four Hindi poems so I did a larger search, not, moreover, excluding non-Hindi items. The following titles appear on a search of OCLC Firstsearch. The "Accession Number" is the same as an OCLC number, which would be needed by your interlibrary loan librarian. These are available at various libraries around the country. ACCESSION: 27433890 AUTHOR: Rathore, L. S. TITLE: Maharana Hammir of Mewar : Chitor's lost freedom restored / PLACE: Jodhpur : PUBLISHER: Thar Bliss, YEAR: 1991 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 98 p. ; 23 cm. NOTES: Poems. On Hammir, Maharana of Mewar, 14th cent. SUBJECT: Hammir, -- Maharana of Mewar -- 14th cent. -- Poetry. Middle Ages -- Poetry. ACCESSION: 35740146 AUTHOR: Thakkura, Narayana Visanaji. TITLE: Cakravarti Hammira, athava, Citodano punaruddhara eka aitihasika navalakatha / PLACE: Mumbai : PUBLISHER: "Gujarati" Printinga Presamam, YEAR: 1921 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: x, 165 p. ; 21 cm. SERIES: SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 14435. NOTES: Novel. On Hammiradeva, Raja of Ranthambhor, d. 1301. Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago : Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1996. On 1 microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 14435) SUBJECT: Hammiradeva, -- Raja of Ranthambhor, -- d. 1301 -- Fiction. ALT TITLE: Cakravarti Hammira Citodano punaruddhara ACCESSION: 36587918 AUTHOR: Jodharaja, fl. 1728. TITLE: Hammiraraso PLACE: Prayaga : PUBLISHER: Indiyana Presa, YEAR: 1929 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 1, 188 p. ; 18 cm. SERIES: Nagaripracarini granthamala ; 13 SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 17774. NOTES: Poem. Previous ed.: Kasi : Kasi Nagaripracarini Sabha, 1908. Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago : Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1995. On 1 microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 17774) OTHER: Dasa, Syamasundara, 1875-1945. ACCESSION: 20225310 AUTHOR: Amrtakalasa, 16th cent. TITLE: Hammiraprabandha. YEAR: 1973 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 16, 75 p. ; 23 cm. SERIES: Pracina Gurjara granthamala ; grantha 11. NOTES: In Gujarati. SUBJECT: Hamiradeva, -- Raja of Ranthambhor, -- d. 1301 -- Poetry. OTHER: Sandesara, Bhogilal Jayachandbhai, 1916?- Parekha, Somabhai Dhu. ACCESSION: 25656720 AUTHOR: Jayasimha. TITLE: Hammira-mada-mardana of Jayasinha Suri PLACE: Baroda : PUBLISHER: Central library, YEAR: 1920 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xv, 90, viii p. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Gaekwad's oriental series ; no. 10 NOTES: In Sanskrit and Prakrit; introd. in English. Includes appendixes. Master microform held by: University of Chicago Library. Microfilm. Chicago : University of Chicago Library, 1990. 1 microfilm reel : negative ; 35 mm. (N8077) ALT TITLE: Hammiramadamardana OTHER: Dalal, C. D. (Chimanlal Dahyabhai), 1881?-1918. ACCESSION: 21934879 AUTHOR: Jayasimha, disciple of Vira Suri, 13th cent. TITLE: Hammira-Mada-Mardana of Jayasinha Suri, PLACE: Baroda, PUBLISHER: Central Library, YEAR: 1920 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xv, 90, viii p. 25 cm. SERIES: Gaekwad's Oriental series, no. 10 NOTES: Title and author's name in Sanskrit at head of t.-p. Sanskrit text with Sanskrit paging; introd. in English. OTHER: Dalal, C. D. (Chimanlal Dahyabhai), 1881?-1918, ed. There are also these two editions of the Hammiraraso that are in the Library of Congress but for some reason don't appear on Firstsearch: sa62-132 Jodharaja Hammiraraso. 1908. PK2096 .J6 H3 1908 (Orien Hind) Das, Syam Sundar, Rai Bahadur, 1875-1945, ed. Nagari-Pracharini granthamala series, no. 13 (Microfilm ed. of this above.) Jodharaja. Hammiraraso. 3. 2005 [1948] PK2096 .J6 H3 1948 Das, Syam Sundar, Rai Bahadur, 1875-1945, ed. I hope this will be of assistance. Sincerely Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jan 22 21:11:00 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 16:11:00 -0500 Subject: Hammir, contd. Message-ID: <161227035006.23782.11728939747104491790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is another item on Hammir that was delayed in coming to me: ACCESSION: 37526544 AUTHOR: Thakkura, Narayana Visanaji. TITLE: Hammirahatha, athava, Ranathambhorano ghero PLACE: Mumbai : PUBLISHER: "Gujarati" Printinga Presa, YEAR: 1914 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xiv, 182 p. ; 22 cm. SERIES: SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 14439. NOTES: Novel. Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago : Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1997. On 1 microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 14439) ALT TITLE: Hammirahatha Ranathambhorano ghero Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jan 22 16:29:08 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 16:29:08 +0000 Subject: Uttara Kuru In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980122154951.00f8d104@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227034995.23782.13706436757184642012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > Geographically, Tajikistan and Southern TianShan mountains are very > close to India. Tajikistan is just north of Kashmir. Well, close shmose. There are formidable natural barriers between these areas! Dominik From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Jan 22 16:41:32 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 16:41:32 +0000 Subject: Hammir In-Reply-To: <34C771F1.78E8@sfo.com> Message-ID: <161227034997.23782.9799476558962242987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Mary Storm wrote: > Greetings Indologists, > I am looking for a group of four Hindi poems written about Hammir, the > Chauhan hero of Ranthambhor. Has anyone read these poems, or know of > them? Does anyone know where these poems might be found? I would be > grateful for any leads. > Thanks in advance, > Mary Storm I don't know of any Hindi poems, but there are said to be numerous Rajasthani poems on HammIr: the best known is BhAMDau VyAsa's HammIrAyaNa, which is also pretty early (firmly dated 1481 A.D.). It was edited by BhaMvarlAl NAhTA and published by the Sadul Rajasthani Research Institute, Bikaner in V.S. 2017. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 22 16:33:33 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 21:33:33 +0500 Subject: Malaya Message-ID: <161227034990.23782.18300933246776003475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the Oldest PurAnAS namely ViSNu PurANa incudes Malaya in the enumeration of the seven kula parvatAs. mahEndrO malayaH sahyaH ZuktimAnRkSaparvataH vindhyazca pAriyAtrazca saptAtra kulaparvatAh. 2.3.3 It notes that kRtamAlA and tAmraparNi as the rivers born in these mountains. kRtamAlA tAmraparNIpramukhA malayOdbhavAH. 2.3.13(1) By the way somebody was asking me today whether malayALI and malaya are related. Are they? regards, sarma. From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Fri Jan 23 14:17:56 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 09:17:56 -0500 Subject: Req: Variants in MBh, AB too Message-ID: <161227035015.23782.17494329735429587048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like a small favor from someone with ready access to the critical edition of Mahabharata, as it seems overkill to use interlibrary loan for this. Are there any variant reading in CE 1.13.25a and 1.176.35d? I am interested especially in variants of the word bhavitrii. A related question: Do editions of Aitreya Brahmana show variant readings for 3.22.1 ``sainaan abraviit praatar va.h prativaktaasmiiti''? Thanks in advance Nath From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Jan 23 11:24:41 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 09:24:41 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035011.23782.12045222335758680422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> - >I seem to be discussing something >closer to "la langue", whereas you seem to be discussing something closer to >"la parole" (to use Saussure's expressions). Oh yes, or something near to distinction of zabda and pada. What a reader reads are meaninfull words, not just devoided or neutral linguistic signs and the charge imbueded therein is proportional to the underlying semantic or "cultural" understanding of those bedeutungtr?gende words. > I see language as a flexible >and changeable system that can be manipulated to express any >given concept... Yes but when you manipulate it you're having corresponding cultural resonance to that. In the case of Faschism or Ccmmunism they had an ideological brainwashing together with ideological activism going on at the same time. Thus the cultural background was creating "reality" for the shifts of meaning of a number of words and concepts as well as the eventual introduction of new ones. Best regards Jesualdo Correia >*over time* while still being the same language in linguistic >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > From jftzgrld at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jan 23 15:00:22 1998 From: jftzgrld at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 10:00:22 -0500 Subject: Req: Variants in MBh, AB too Message-ID: <161227035025.23782.9709783606966719258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Are there any variant reading in CE 1.13.25a and 1.176.35d? I am >interested especially in variants of the word bhavitrii. For MBh 1.13.25a, there are no variants for bhavitrii; for sanaamnii yaa D2 reads mannaamnaa yaa; T G1.4.5 read svanaamnii (T2 -mnaa) yaa; G2.3 read saa hi jaayaa; M1 (before correction) sanaamaa vaa. For the yaa T1 and G5 read vaa. For 1.176.35d, S (excluding T1 G1.2) reads kRSNaa svasaa na mRSaa prabraviimi, essentially substituting svasaa for bhavitrii. Jim Fitzgerald From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 23 16:03:46 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 10:03:46 -0600 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227035028.23782.13000355594689984587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I went through the the Indology Archives and found some interesting info posted by the list members: Mr.Powers,Ms.Thillaud,Mr.Seldeslachts, Mr.Sharma and Mr.Paul Manan and a belated thanks to all of them. It seems to me that Uttara Kuru and Tocharian seems to be taken more seriously. 1)The geographical description of Uttara Kuru and Tocharian seem to match according to Monier Williams dictionary 2)Hyperboreans: In North India all the people know of the cold Eastern Wind that blows called "Puruvayya" - this word is used in many romantic poems and hindi film songs. If there is a North Wind that blows then I presume it would be called the Uttariya,and the Greeks would have dutifully recorded it as HyperBorean. The question is whethar there is indeed a wind that blows down into India from the North. 3)The Mahabharata's description seems to match the geographical location. Also, in Dr.Kalyanaramans website at http://www.probys.com/sarasvati/ he lists how accurate the Mahabharata has been with respect to the geography of the Saraswati river and location of cities. 4)Buddhist influence was present in Tocharian. It is very possible that it was frequented by Buddhist monks. This raises another possibility and a Very Important question. - If Buddhist influence can find its way into Tocharian, then is it not possible that Pre-Buddhist and Vedic influence from India also found its way into the area ?. According to Dr.Mair, the nomads used to trade with the people in the plains for their grains, without which their nutrition needs wouldnt be met. In my opinion, one of the most fertile places in the world for growing grains is the Punjab and it is very plausible that there was trade between the Tajiks and people of the Punjab/Haryana region. There is another interesting thing: Kashmiri Pandits believe that the Kashmir Valley of today is very different from what it was in ancient times. According to them,the whole of the Kashmir valley was under water. This is very possible because that region is pretty active geologically and prone to earthquakes, as the Indian plate strikes the Asian land mass. Subrahmanya. From sharmave at UNIVE.IT Fri Jan 23 10:20:09 1998 From: sharmave at UNIVE.IT (SHARMA GHANSHYAM) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 11:20:09 +0100 Subject: aage naath ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035008.23782.7582587361394900225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That's what I suggested in my last mail. "(na) aage naath na piichhe paghaa (pagahaa)" "(Neither) a nose-ring in front, nor a tail-rope behind." > I suggest a slightly more colloquial reading would be > > "(Neither) a nose-ring in front, nor a tail-rope behind." > > The initial "na" in neither-nor constructions is VERY commonly omitted-- I > can think of countless other examples in proverbs (e.g., jaan na pahcaan > baRii biibii salaam), poetry, and common speech. (Whereas in an if-then > or when-then construction, the "to" is almost never omitted.) Yes, it's true. > And this reading very well corresponds to the meaning suggested by the > dictionary. It's at least another possibility, I would say... Ghanshyam Sharma University of Venice From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Jan 23 14:13:19 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 12:13:19 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035018.23782.5060196620874206652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It seems that we have come full circle in our discussion, which has been >rather fun. > >> >>Best regards >> > >I may be dense, but I had the impression that I was discussing with a lady >called Winnie Fellows. So who is Jesualdo Correia? > Jesualdo Correia is the alias of the e-mail Winnie.Fellows. at unikey.com.br and Winnie Fellows is the alias of jesualdocorreia at hotmail.com From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Jan 23 14:15:37 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 12:15:37 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035020.23782.6830752276652546288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It seems that we have come full circle in our discussion, which has been >rather fun. > >> >>Best regards >> > >I may be dense, but I had the impression that I was discussing with a lady >called Winnie Fellows. So who is Jesualdo Correia? > Jesualdo Correia is the alias of the e-mail Winnie.Fellows. at unikey.com.br and Winnie Fellows is the alias of jesualdocorreia at hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Jan 23 11:58:44 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 12:58:44 +0100 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035013.23782.4449034494856688734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> I see language as a flexible >>and changeable system that can be manipulated to express any >given >concept... > >Yes but when you manipulate it you're having corresponding cultural >resonance to that. In the case of Faschism or Ccmmunism they had an >ideological brainwashing together with ideological activism going on at the >same time. Thus the cultural background was creating "reality" for the >shifts of meaning of a number of words and concepts as well as the eventual >introduction of new ones. But that is precisely what I said already! Language can be manipulated, and through various kinds of manipulation be made to express any idea or thought, or for that matter, any set of values. What is interesting about Faschism, is that the manipulation happened so quickly. In the matter of little more than a decade, the German language was imbued with all sorts of concepts and ideas that either hadn't been there before, or only had been known to a small group of people (the Nazis and their ideological adherents). After the war, the German language had to be "cleansed" of its Nazi concepts and vocabulary. In DDR, you got a new round of manipulation, this time with Communist terms and ideas. It seems that we have come full circle in our discussion, which has been rather fun. > >Best regards > >Jesualdo Correia I may be dense, but I had the impression that I was discussing with a lady called Winnie Fellows. So who is Jesualdo Correia? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Fri Jan 23 14:41:42 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 14:41:42 +0000 Subject: Req: Variants in MBh, AB too In-Reply-To: <199801231417.JAA09144@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227035023.23782.13407694903109772382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > I would like a small favor from someone with ready access to the > critical edition of Mahabharata, as it seems overkill to use > interlibrary loan for this. > > Are there any variant reading in CE 1.13.25a and 1.176.35d? I am > interested especially in variants of the word bhavitrii. V.ll. for 1.13.25a: D2 mannAmnA; T G1.4.5 svanAmnI (T2 -mnA). G2.3 sA hi jAyA; M1 (before corr.) sanAmA vA. T1 G5 vA (for yA). V.ll. for 1.176.35d (where bhavitrI na mRSA in text is marked with "doubtful" wiggly line): S (except T1 G1.2) kRSNA svasA na mRSA prabravImi. Someone else will have to do the AB passages, I'm afraid -- I don't have easy access to anything useful on that. John smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Fri Jan 23 17:13:28 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 18:13:28 +0100 Subject: Uttara Kuru Message-ID: <161227035030.23782.2225927901695015121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > > I went through the the Indology Archives and found some > interesting info posted by the list members: > Mr.Powers,Ms.Thillaud,Mr.Seldeslachts, Mr.Sharma and Mr.Paul Manan > and a belated thanks to all of them. > > It seems to me that Uttara Kuru and Tocharian seems to be > taken more seriously. > 1)The geographical description of Uttara Kuru and Tocharian > seem to match according to Monier Williams dictionary ... I do not think that the Tocharians are the same as the people of Uttarakuru. Probably they both belonged to the conglomerate of peoples of different origin but with a partially shared culture the ancient Greeks called Seres and whose mummified bodies now turn up in the desert. In this context it is interesting that while most of the mummies are of the European type, others are rather of the Indo-Afghan type and some are mongoloid (see the article 'On the silk road', The Asian Age, 15 May 1996, p.13). This is precisely what the Greek author Pausanias tells us: "others say that the Seres are (...) Scythians intermingled with Indians."(Descriptio Graeciae 6.26.8). The Journal of Indo-European Studies has devoted an entire issue to the discovery of the mummies and the Tocharian question (Vol. 23/3-4, 1995). Regards, Erik Seldeslachts From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Jan 23 20:42:40 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 18:42:40 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035036.23782.13102937962533368211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> - >What impresses me the patience with which some people take even patently un >called for remarks such as about Why have Gita in Yiddish so seriously and >explain teh whole issue. I salute you Mr lars >keep it up and those who asked this rather silly question, shoudl be more >considerate of traffic on inetrnet and avoid crowding it by posting such >remarks > >thanks >akg > This discussion which followed the remark was certainly above your intellectual level ( or below ) for you didn't have the courage to take part in it, being only concerned with a fruitless post festum observation. As a matter of fact the remark had the benefit of opening a healthy discussion which proved if nothing that it was neither hostile or unproductive . Jesualdo Correia From RPie at CONCENTRIC.NET Sat Jan 24 02:11:13 1998 From: RPie at CONCENTRIC.NET (Robert Phillips) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 21:11:13 -0500 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035038.23782.2778352935527989025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> winnie fellows wrote: > >What impresses me the patience with which some people take even patently un > >called for remarks such as about Why have Gita in Yiddish so seriously and > >explain teh whole issue. I salute you Mr lars > >keep it up and those who asked this rather silly question, shoudl be more > >considerate of traffic on inetrnet and avoid crowding it by posting such > >remarks > >thanks > >akg > > This discussion which followed the remark was certainly above your > intellectual level ( or below ) for you didn't have the courage to take part > in it, being only concerned with a fruitless post festum observation. Is that really a fair conclusion to draw from the above remark? Really, what does that say about you, that you would conclude anything of the sort? I'm sorry that you were stung by the remark and the implicit criticism, but you do yourself no favors with your above snit. It needn't be pointed out that of course many if not most people who did not participate in the overall discussion are in all capable of doing so, and chose not to for reasons of their own. It's quite an unflattering portrait you have painted of yourself, with this bitter remark and the one which initiated the discussion in the first place. > As a > matter of fact the remark had the benefit of opening a healthy discussion > which proved if nothing that it was neither hostile or unproductive . > Jesualdo Correia It did, indeed; it's fortunate that the good colleagues of the list helped you dig out of the hole you dug for yourself. What a pity you chose to jump back in... Pie From RPie at CONCENTRIC.NET Sat Jan 24 03:45:22 1998 From: RPie at CONCENTRIC.NET (Robert Phillips) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 22:45:22 -0500 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035043.23782.10009686501717885769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> winnie fellows wrote: > -----Mensagem original----- > De: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Para: Winnie Fellows > Data: Sexta-feira, 23 de Janeiro de 1998 21:27 > Assunto: Re: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita > > >winnie fellows wrote: > > > >> >What impresses me the patience with which some people take even patently > un > >> >called for remarks such as about Why have Gita in Yiddish so seriously > and > >> >explain teh whole issue. I salute you Mr lars > >> >keep it up and those who asked this rather silly question, shoudl be > more > >> >considerate of traffic on inetrnet and avoid crowding it by posting such > >> >remarks > >> >thanks > >> >akg > >> > > >> This discussion which followed the remark was certainly above your > >> intellectual level ( or below ) for you didn't have the courage to take > part > >> in it, being only concerned with a fruitless post festum observation. > > > >Is that really a fair conclusion to draw from the above remark? Really, > what > >does that say about you, that you would conclude anything of the sort? I'm > >sorry that you were stung by the remark and the implicit criticism, but you > do > >yourself no favors with your above snit. It needn't be pointed out that of > >course many if not most people who did not participate in the overall > discussion > >are in all capable of doing so, and chose not to for reasons of their own. > It's > >quite an unflattering portrait you have painted of yourself, with this > bitter > >remark and the one which initiated the discussion in the first place. > > > >> As a > >> matter of fact the remark had the benefit of opening a healthy > discussion > >> which proved if nothing that it was neither hostile or unproductive . > >> Jesualdo Correia > > > > It did, indeed; it's fortunate that the good colleagues of the list > helped you > >dig out of the hole you dug for yourself. What a pity you chose to jump > back > >in... > > > >In first place Winnie Fellows didn't write the top quote. You should pay > more attention to the thread. I'm unconcerned about names and aliases, etc. I responded - via e-mail - to the address from which the snit was sent. > In the second place nobody helped me to dig me > out of any hole. The hole you imagine is that of your own manicheistic view > of things which seems to be bound to rigid lines of thinking, missing the > possibility of exploring deeper regions beyond formal stetements. If anyone > of those who made the hostile observations about my astonishment would care > for discussing the topic, as Lars did, the whole issue would be much more > profitable. Powerful over-analysis of a pretty simple situation. > Of course it was a fair conclusion to draw for that post festum remark and > it was addressed exactly to the one made it and not to those who did not > participate in the debate. That fellow did not participate in the debate; you addressed it to him, and in doing so characterized him unfairly and probably incorrectly. > In some schools of spirituality certain > provocations are made on purpose just to stir some underlying some major > feature up. "...Some schools of spirituality...?" Powerful over-analysis of a pretty simple situation. What you're describing is called, to use a 'Net expression, flame-baiting. It's hardly a deeply significant spiritual or intellectual pursuit. What that fellow offered was not flame-bait. What was offered in the original post was not flame-bait, either. It was a callous and chauvinistic remark, and you were rightly called on it. > If the intention is not related to negative emotion or > ideological hostility- and my original remark WAS NOT- then the important > is that what follows. I'm sure your original remark was not meant "negatively" or with overt ideological hostility. Yet it smacked of both nonetheless. At best, it was a carelessly worded question. Really, you have over-analyzed a pretty simple situation. I'm not interested in an on-going e-mail battle with you; I've spent enough time on this issue as it is. I think you were wrong in both your initial remark and your outright and mis-placed hostility when that fellow offered perfectly valid criticism of your initial remark. That's pretty simple. Pie From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sat Jan 24 06:14:22 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 00:14:22 -0600 Subject: A transgression? In-Reply-To: <34C94DC0.D960EABA@concentric.net> Message-ID: <161227035045.23782.12821447364896361260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I have been reviewing the history of Vedic schoalrship and, especially, benefitting from T. Elizarenkova's recent 'Language and Style of the Vedic RSis', it is hard not to marvel and envy the wealth of scholarship from the former Soviet Union which, to my youthful experience, has only recently become readily accessible. I ask this with some trepidation in light of the possible politics I could be raising--and so apologize in advance as that is not my intent--but nonetheless I am quite curious what discourse--if any--and on what topics with the scholars of the former "eastern block" existed during the cold war. Further, did detente bring about a change, and if so where (topic and author-wise) in Indology? Perhaps the veterans in the field might indulge this inquiry about the recent history -- prior, say, to 1975 -- of our collective paramparaa? Thank you in advance, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sat Jan 24 06:30:11 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 00:30:11 -0600 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita In-Reply-To: <34C963D1.E16E84E5@concentric.net> Message-ID: <161227035047.23782.14957148765375523040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I couldn't help but note the following from the Chronicle of Higher Education for this past week, there is a website for Yiddish books, a collection of some 44,000 titles--gleaned from some 1.4 million, 22,000 of which are held at the center initiating the searchable resource. INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY Yiddish Book Center Announces Plan to Digitize Its Collections By GOLDIE BLUMENSTYK For 18 years, the National Yiddish Book Center has used trucks, handcarts, and an army of zamlers to rescue more than a million Yiddish books and periodicals from the libraries and basements of aging immigrants and their children and grandchildren. Now the center is turning to computer technology to help those zamlers -- or collectors -- preserve and share that literary legacy. The center has announced plans to scan and digitize the contents of its collection of more than 22,000 titles, and then to use those electronic "masters" to make the works available to libraries, scholars, and students in electronic and print formats. The Center hopes to have its World-Wide Web site (http://www.yiddishbookcenter.org) operating soon. Copyright (c) 1998 by The Chronicle of Higher Education http://chronicle.com Date: 01/23/98 Section: Information Technology Page: A25 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 23 19:24:23 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 00:54:23 +0530 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035033.23782.733834789140351608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What impresses me the patience with which some people take even patently un called for remarks such as about Why have Gita in Yiddish so seriously and explain teh whole issue. I salute you Mr lars keep it up and those who asked this rather silly question, shoudl be more considerate of traffic on inetrnet and avoid crowding it by posting such remarks thanks akg From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sat Jan 24 03:22:06 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 01:22:06 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035040.23782.10045980174218705872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Mensagem original----- De: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Para: Winnie Fellows Data: Sexta-feira, 23 de Janeiro de 1998 21:27 Assunto: Re: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita >winnie fellows wrote: > >> >What impresses me the patience with which some people take even patently un >> >called for remarks such as about Why have Gita in Yiddish so seriously and >> >explain teh whole issue. I salute you Mr lars >> >keep it up and those who asked this rather silly question, shoudl be more >> >considerate of traffic on inetrnet and avoid crowding it by posting such >> >remarks >> >thanks >> >akg >> >> This discussion which followed the remark was certainly above your >> intellectual level ( or below ) for you didn't have the courage to take part >> in it, being only concerned with a fruitless post festum observation. > >Is that really a fair conclusion to draw from the above remark? Really, what >does that say about you, that you would conclude anything of the sort? I'm >sorry that you were stung by the remark and the implicit criticism, but you do >yourself no favors with your above snit. It needn't be pointed out that of >course many if not most people who did not participate in the overall discussion >are in all capable of doing so, and chose not to for reasons of their own. It's >quite an unflattering portrait you have painted of yourself, with this bitter >remark and the one which initiated the discussion in the first place. > >> As a >> matter of fact the remark had the benefit of opening a healthy discussion >> which proved if nothing that it was neither hostile or unproductive . >> Jesualdo Correia > > It did, indeed; it's fortunate that the good colleagues of the list helped you >dig out of the hole you dug for yourself. What a pity you chose to jump back >in... > >In first place Winnie Fellows didn't write the top quote. You should pay more attention to the thread. In the second place nobody helped me to dig me out of any hole. The hole you imagine is that of your own manicheistic view of things which seems to be bound to rigid lines of thinking, missing the possibility of exploring deeper regions beyond formal stetements. If anyone of those who made the hostile observations about my astonishment would care for discussing the topic, as Lars did, the whole issue would be much more profitable. Of course it was a fair conclusion to draw for that post festum remark and it was addressed exactly to the one made it and not to those who did not participate in the debate.In some schools of spirituality certain provocations are made on purpose just to stir some underlying some major feature up. If the intention is not related to negative emotion or ideological hostility- and my original remark WAS NOT- then the important is that what follows. But some people stick just at that point and doesn't want to go ahead. Jesualdo Correia From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sat Jan 24 06:41:41 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 04:41:41 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035049.23782.13099855516119063318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- >Powerful over-analysis of a pretty simple situation. Not at all. The debate which followed treated fundamental questions in linguistics. >>Of course it was a fair conclusion to draw for that post festum remark and >> it was addressed exactly to the one made it and not to those who did not >> participate in the debate. > >That fellow did not participate in the debate; you addressed it to him, and in >doing so characterized him unfairly and probably incorrectly. I just replied to his fully mis-placed remark. But in the same manner as I'm open to reconsider the "value" of my first remark I have the absolute sincerity of saying that his remark was out of place, as it was with yours. > >> In some schools of spirituality certain >> provocations are made on purpose just to stir some underlying some major >> feature up. > >"...Some schools of spirituality...?" Powerful over-analysis of a pretty simple >situation. What you're describing is called, to use a 'Net expression, >flame-baiting. I can understand that you don't want to see beyond. Anyway, you may characterize it with any superficial internet label you wish. I still fully maintain the interpretation of the whole issue exactly as I did. It was a callous and chauvinistic >remark, and you were rightly called on it. I don't see it at all as callous and chauvinistic. And I answered to the replies at the same bon ton I think they deserved. What really interests me is the healthy debate and I'm not afraid of making remarks which may flow from my inner sincerity and thereafter go through the discussion of its content, reconsidering if necessary. > >> If the intention is not related to negative emotion or >> ideological hostility- and my original remark WAS NOT- then the important >> is that what follows. > >I'm sure your original remark was not meant "negatively" or with overt >ideological hostility. Yet it smacked of both nonetheless. It may have but in that case the fault is not mine. At best, it was a >carelessly worded question. To a certain extend it may even have been, but it holds a style and an intention which although sometimes clumsy runs accepted risks of being overly misunderstood. Really, you have over-analyzed a pretty simple >situation. I'm not interested in an on-going e-mail battle with you; I've spent >enough time on this issue as it is. Neither do I, since my main interest is around the richness of debates around important issues. I think you were wrong in both your initial >remark and your outright and mis-placed hostility when that fellow offered >perfectly valid criticism of your initial remark. The question of bein wrong or not is not affecting my ego or my intellectual pride and *that* remak of mine, a posteriori, may indeed have been hostile for I considered the criticism out of place. That's pretty simple. > > >Pie Perhaps here is one of our differences: what seems to be simple to you is not that simple to me and what is not simple to you is just simple for me. I have the feeling that we are looking at the finger and not at the moon. Jesualdo Correia Jesualdo Correia > From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Jan 24 12:52:21 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 07:52:21 -0500 Subject: aage naath ... Message-ID: <161227035051.23782.12985884506698046269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Frank Van Den Bossche >Does anyone know the literal meaning of the Hindi saying 'aage naath na >piichhe pagahaa' rendered as 'to have neither home nor hearth' or 'to be Naath is actually a variation of 'nath' , the nostrils of a bullock and 'pagha' means the rope that is used to pull the bullock. As you know bullocks are castrated bulls and have nostrils pierced and a rope threaded through them to control them. The bulls called 'Saand' do not have any such restraints and serve the only purpose to be studs and are not owned by anybody and are hard to control. From umadevi at SFO.COM Sat Jan 24 19:12:58 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 11:12:58 -0800 Subject: Hammir Message-ID: <161227035066.23782.9078910423000166025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to all of you who have offered Hammir suggestions, I have flooded inter-library loan, and am dusting off my dictionaries. Gratefully, Mary Storm From bvi at AFN.ORG Sat Jan 24 17:20:31 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 12:20:31 -0500 Subject: MacAuley's criticism of PurANic oceans Message-ID: <161227035060.23782.4559618177092924551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:15 PM 1/6/98 +0500, you wrote: >At 11:42 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I have heard that MacAuley makes some critical remarks about the various >>oceans of ghee, liquor, etc. described in the PurANas. Do you know in what >>publication he makes such statements? >> >The reference occurs in Thomas Babington Macaulay's famous Minute on English >Education in India dated 2nd February 1835. You will find the Minute in the >collected works of Macaulay. I have looked in vain through four different collections of Macaulay's works for this 'famous' Minute on education, and I am wondering if any of you have an exact reference for this. Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sat Jan 24 14:43:20 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 12:43:20 -0200 Subject: A transgression? Message-ID: <161227035053.23782.11722864676310302001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- >, it is hard not to marvel and envy the wealth of scholarship from >the former Soviet Union which, to my youthful experience, has only >recently become readily accessible. That's true. The russian-soviet tradition of Oriental studies was a quite wealthy one and for reasons of linguistic barriers and to some extend prejudice hardly known in Western Europe. In the field of Buddhist studies, Scherbatsky was of the few exceptions. In the lexicographic and grammatical studies there are still waiting to be translated dozens of important if not breakingthrough works. Of course the sociological, historical and related field-studies were inevitably impregnated by those rigid historical-materislistic dogma and whenever one of such books came into my hands ( I used to buy a good number of soviet indological and sinological books through Otto Harrassowits Verlag in the 70's ) I wouldn't be able to do more than to look here and there avoiding, above all, those liturgical marxist-leninistic prefaces. But as for the linguistic material it was a different question. Otto Harrassowitz of Wiesbaden did a quite remarkable job in making so many titles availlable. The soviet studies in the field of Tibetology was also remarkable. > >Jesualdo Correia From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Sat Jan 24 18:38:58 1998 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 13:38:58 -0500 Subject: MacAuley's criticism of PurANic oceans In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980124172031.00880b04@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227035062.23782.14335639785369832492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try T. B. Macaulay. LORD MACAULAY's LEGISLATIVE MINUTES. Eelected by C. D. Dharkar. Bombay: Indian Branch, Oxford universit Press. 1875 or Lady Trevelyan, ed. The Works of Lord Macaulay. London: Longmans, 1875. On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Chris Beetle wrote: > At 02:15 PM 1/6/98 +0500, you wrote: > >At 11:42 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >>I have heard that MacAuley makes some critical remarks about the various > >>oceans of ghee, liquor, etc. described in the PurANas. Do you know in what > >>publication he makes such statements? > >> > >The reference occurs in Thomas Babington Macaulay's famous Minute on English > >Education in India dated 2nd February 1835. You will find the Minute in the > >collected works of Macaulay. > > I have looked in vain through four different collections of Macaulay's works > for this 'famous' Minute on education, and I am wondering if any of you have > an exact reference for this. > > Thank you for your help. > > Chris Beetle > From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Sat Jan 24 19:02:09 1998 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 14:02:09 -0500 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita In-Reply-To: <01bd287f$a105a020$82cfffc8@default> Message-ID: <161227035064.23782.1663829306936225123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Jesualdo Correia Some free advice: Ignorance + attitude = arrogant stupidity You've sadly made yourself an abject lesson and exemplification of that principle. And any snide remark you plan to retort will just illustrate it further. The choice is yours. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 24 21:23:01 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 16:23:01 -0500 Subject: Dravidian "c"-"y" alternation (was Re: solution to the "kuyava' etymology) Message-ID: <161227035068.23782.14930592898950516025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-20 07:53:15 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << >As for the process of one-way change of "-c-" to "-y-", is it universal? Then, >can somebody explain the following? In DED, we find the following. >*kAy, to grow hot, burn, etc. - Ta. kAy; Ma. kAyuka to be hot, To. ko.y- (ko.c-) to be hot; Tu. kAyuni to be hot; Go. kAsAnA to become hot. >*koy, to pluck leaves, flowers, reap, harvest, etc. - Ta. koy; Ko. koy- (koc-) >to cut; To. kwIy- (kwIs-) to pluck fruits, Go. kOiyAna harvest wheat or crops, >etc., (M) koidAna to reap; Kur. khoynA (khoss-) to cut down grass and the >like with the sickle, mow, reap >*kAy and *koy are PDr forms reconstructed by Dr. Krishnamurthy in his TVB. >Clearly, we have here "y" changing to "c"/"s"/"t". In what way, is the >"kuyava"/"kucava" problem different, if we assume "kuy" is the base? Go. ka:s is a restuctured stem from the past ka:si:, just like Modern Telugu has ka:s-tu:; I discussed elsewhere how the roots have incorporated tense morphemes and got restructured. (Also discussed in TVB); in the case of koy what you find in parenthese are past stems with c/t in Sandhi. Kota koy-t --> koc; so also Toda; Kur. khoss- is past stem; -ss- is past tense marker in Kur-Malto. >> There is one unambiguous way we can check if the change of "y" > "c" can happen in Dravidian. If we compare loan words and how they are pronounced in Dravidian, we can see this. Let us consider the following words. 1. Greek ionia? > Sanskrit/Tamil yavana(n2) > Tamil cOn2akan2 2. Sanskrit yakSI > Tamil iyakki > Tamil icakki 3. Sanskrit vyAdhi > Tamil viyAti > Tamil vicAti 4. Sanskrit gAGgeya > Tamil kAGkEyan2 > Tamil kAGkEcan2 Items 1, 2, and 3 as well as "kAGkEyan2" can be checked in the Madras University Lexicon. The form "kAGkEcan" occurs as part of a name of a town in Northern Sri Lanka called "kAGkEcan tuRai". So the "c"-"y" variation could be a two-way street. No wonder then G. S. Rao, a Dravidian linguist and a former student of Dr. Krishnamurthy, in page 14 of his book "A Comparative Study of Dravidian Noun Derivatives" (published in 1991) says, "When we say that in ProtoDravidian *c and *y alternate in the rootfinal position we imply that it is a synchronic fact of Proto Dravidian whose traces we can find in the modern descendant dialects of the parent speech." Please note the use of the words "*c and *y alternate" as opposed to "*c weakens to *y". In fact, later in the book (p.98), he gives the following etymology: 1. Ta. acai 'to be weary', acar 'to become faint', ayar-ppu, ayar-vu 'forgetfulness', Ma. ayar-ppu 'forgetfulness, swoon' *ayar-p-(41). (41) refers to DED entry. If the weakening hierarchy of "c" > "y" were to be strictly followed would he not have to give "*acar-p-" as the root? In his book Telugu Verbal Bases, Dr. Krishnamurthy in connection with the words meaning "to weave, weaving" (Ta. ney tr. to weave; necavu, neyavu weaving; Te. nEyu to weave; ne/Eta weaving DED 3103) gives the root as PDr. *nec-/*ec->*ne/Ey-. But P.S. Subrahmanyam, in p. 198 of his book "Dravidian Comparative Phonology" (published in 1983) reconstructs a Proto-Dravidian root *ney- for the same. (However, he does not give "c" as a reflex of Proto Dravidian *-y-.) P. S. Subrahmanyam gives a reflex "-j-" in Kui for Proto-Dravidian "*-y-". We also know that Sanskrit "ja" is often transformed into Tamil "ca". This is not due to someone deliberately following Literary Tamil conventions. Illiterate persons often will say "rOcA" for "rojA" and "mavarAcan2" for "mahArAjan". Can one postulate a theoretical sequential operation of these two processes as explaining this "y"> "c" change? I have heard some Jaffna Tamil speakers pronounce "y" as "j". For instance, the name "yOgEsvaran" was pronounced as "jOgEsvaran". In fact, some even transliterate Tamil "ya" as "ja" as an earlier posting in the Indology list did. I wonder what caused "yAzppANam" to become "Jaffna" - Tamil's pronunciation as "jA" or Portuguese/Dutch/English naturalization of Tamil "yA" as their "jA". Regards S. Palaniappan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jan 24 17:11:05 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 17:11:05 +0000 Subject: Hammir In-Reply-To: <34C771F1.78E8@sfo.com> Message-ID: <161227035056.23782.5373827884837997302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There exists a Sanskrit play on Hammir, the Hammiiranaa.taka, if I recall correctly. I have a copy somewhere, if you want to know more. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jan 24 17:15:08 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 17:15:08 +0000 Subject: ADMINISTRATION (was: Re: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita)) In-Reply-To: <01bd289b$82c173c0$LocalHost@default> Message-ID: <161227035058.23782.7488434277570729440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should like to thank all the participants in this thread, and request that the topic now be closed, or continued privately. I'm afraid to say that I have not been following this particular thread, but a glance at a few recent messages suggests to me that the indological content of the discussion has been exhausted. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE Sat Jan 24 16:27:46 1998 From: ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 17:27:46 +0100 Subject: Indo Times Roman and copyright Message-ID: <161227035055.23782.5251719854559831119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you all for the information. With best wishes, Arash - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arash Zeini e-mail: ar.zeini at uni-koeln.de Tel./Fax: +49-221-4303060 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 25 00:17:57 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 19:17:57 -0500 Subject: Dravidian "c"-"y" alternation (was Re: solution to the "kuyava' etymology) Message-ID: <161227035074.23782.1586323130495119922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-20 07:53:15 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << >As for the process of one-way change of "-c-" to "-y-", is it universal? Then, >can somebody explain the following? In DED, we find the following. >*kAy, to grow hot, burn, etc. - Ta. kAy; Ma. kAyuka to be hot, To. ko.y- (ko.c-) to be hot; Tu. kAyuni to be hot; Go. kAsAnA to become hot. >*koy, to pluck leaves, flowers, reap, harvest, etc. - Ta. koy; Ko. koy- (koc-) >to cut; To. kwIy- (kwIs-) to pluck fruits, Go. kOiyAna harvest wheat or crops, >etc., (M) koidAna to reap; Kur. khoynA (khoss-) to cut down grass and the >like with the sickle, mow, reap >*kAy and *koy are PDr forms reconstructed by Dr. Krishnamurthy in his TVB. >Clearly, we have here "y" changing to "c"/"s"/"t". In what way, is the >"kuyava"/"kucava" problem different, if we assume "kuy" is the base? Go. ka:s is a restuctured stem from the past ka:si:, just like Modern Telugu has ka:s-tu:; I discussed elsewhere how the roots have incorporated tense morphemes and got restructured. (Also discussed in TVB); in the case of koy what you find in parenthese are past stems with c/t in Sandhi. Kota koy-t --> koc; so also Toda; Kur. khoss- is past stem; -ss- is past tense marker in Kur-Malto. >> I think there is one unambiguous way to check if the change of "y" > "c" can happen in Dravidian. If we compare loan words and how they are pronounced in Dravidian, we can see this. Let us consider the following words. 1. Greek ionia? > Sanskrit/Tamil yavana(n2) > Tamil cOn2akan2 2. Sanskrit yakSI > Tamil iyakki > Tamil icakki 3. Sanskrit vyAdhi > Tamil viyAti > Tamil vicAti 4. Sanskrit gAGgeya > Tamil kAGkEyan2 > Tamil kAGkEcan2 Items 1, 2, and 3 as well as "kAGkEyan2" can be checked in the Madras University Lexicon. The form "kAGkEcan" occurs as part of a name of a town in Northern Sri Lanka called "kAGkEcan tuRai". So the "c"-"y" variation could be a two-way street. No wonder then G. S. Rao, a Dravidian linguist and a former student of Dr. Krishnamurthy, in page 14 of his book "A Comparative Study of Dravidian Noun Derivatives" (published in 1991) says, "When we say that in ProtoDravidian *c and *y alternate in the rootfinal position we imply that it is a synchronic fact of Proto Dravidian whose traces we can find in the modern descendant dialects of the parent speech." Please note the use of the words "*c and *y alternate" as opposed to "*c weakens to *y". In fact, later in the book (p.98), he gives the following etymology: 1. Ta. acai 'to be weary', acar 'to become faint', ayar-ppu, ayar-vu 'forgetfulness', Ma. ayar-ppu 'forgetfulness, swoon' *ayar-p-(41). (41) refers to DED entry. If the weakening hierarchy of "c" > "y" were to be strictly followed would he not have to give "*acar-p-" as the root? In his book Telugu Verbal Bases, Dr. Krishnamurthy in connection with the words meaning "to weave, weaving" (Ta. ney tr. to weave; necavu, neyavu weaving; Te. nEyu to weave; ne/Eta weaving DED 3103) gives the root as PDr. *nec-/*ec->*ne/Ey-. But P.S. Subrahmanyam, in p. 198 of his book "Dravidian Comparative Phonology" (published in 1983) reconstructs a Proto-Dravidian root *ney- for the same. (However, he does not give "c" as a reflex of Proto Dravidian *-y-.) P. S. Subrahmanyam gives a reflex "-j-" in Kui for Proto-Dravidian "*-y-". We also know that Sanskrit "ja" is often transformed into Tamil "ca". This is not due to someone deliberately following Literary Tamil conventions. Illiterate persons often will say "rOcA" for "rojA" and "mavarAcan2" for "mahArAjan". Can one postulate a theoretical sequential operation of these two processes as explaining this "y"> "c" change? (Sanskrit vijAti and vyAdhi become Tamil "vicAti".) I have heard some Jaffna Tamil speakers pronounce "y" as "j". For instance, the name "yOgEsvaran" was pronounced as "jOgEsvaran". In fact, some even transliterate Tamil "ya" as "ja" as an earlier posting in the Indology list did. I wonder what caused "yAzppANam" to become "Jaffna" - Tamil's pronunciation as "jA" or Portuguese/Dutch/English naturalization of Tamil "yA" as their "jA". Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 25 00:18:01 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 19:18:01 -0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227035072.23782.10678067294345624435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-20 07:53:15 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << >This is not as outlandish as one might think. Consider the interjection of >grief "aiyO". DEDR considers this related to the word "ai" meaning "lord, >master, husband, king, guru, priest, teacher, father". So DEDR lists the two >words as 196 (b) and 196 (a) respectively. The meaning of "kuyyO" has not been >understood till now. Ultimately, this "kuy" may be related to "ku" meaning >"high place" (or hill as Dr. Krishnamurthy pointed out) which can also be >applied to a king. Compare the parallel similar concepts in Sanskrit "ka'kuda" This I must say is imagination running riot; not the science of etymology. >> Regarding the scientific method, if it includes observation, forming hypothesis, and hypothesis testing, etc., I am following a rational approach indeed. Let me give the reasons. There was, and is, reason to believe that the root of the word "kuyavan2" may not have anything to do with pottery. This is based on an occurrence of the words "vETkOk kuyakkoNTAn2" in a medieval Tamil poem. Independently, in the Classical Tamil poetry vETkO and kO have been used in the context of potters in relation to their craft. But the use of "kuyavan2" occurs only in the context of his role as priest. Moreover, if both "vETkO" and "kuyavan2" mean exactly the same thing "potter" the poetic concatenation of both terms in a context without any adoration is very unlikely. So what does "kuyavan2" really mean? Tolkappiyam 2.320 says "taTavum kayavum naLiyum perumai" meaning that "the words taTa, kaya, and naLi mean "great""". According to Burrow, "A fluctuation in Dravidian between a and i (also u) in the radical syllable is a feature very commonly met with, although the conditions that cause it are not very clear." This can be seen in "taLir" DEDR 3131 meaning "to sprout" and "tuLir" DEDR 3362. In both entries DEDR notes the possible connection. In light of other words for potter meaning "chieftain" and Krishnamurthy's suggestion of "ku" meaning hill, one has to wonder if the attribute "greatness" cannot be related to a chieftain. Further, in his study of "Ancient Indian Kingship from the Religious Point of View", Jan Gonda says that "we shall see further on that the same term for "summit" is also given to the king himself." So one could consider the possibility of "kaya" and "kuya" as potential variants of the same thing meaning "great". In addition to this, in peruGkatai, the Tamil version of Sanskrit bRhatkathA, there is an interesting episode where the use of "kuyam" in connection with a potter leads one to believe that the word could refer to a honorary title. (This is described in a separate posting.) Given all this, one cannot but consider the possibility of "kuyavan2" having to do with some honorable position. Further, the expression "kuyyO muRaiyo" does not follow any of the patterns of onomatopoetic expressions in Dravidian as described by Emeneau in his article "Onomatopoetics in the Indian Linguistic Area" in Language and Linguistic Area : Essays by M. B. Emeneau (1980). The second component of the expression also means "law, justice". When one considers expressions of grief, such as "aiyO, ammA", etc. they seem to be calling for succour from a higher person. That is the reason behind DEDR entries 196 (a) and (b). Regarding such entries, DEDR introduction says, "At times there has been separation, but cross-references have been supplied between groups which are certainly or almost certainly related...Other such related groups have been arranged as (a) and (b) under the same number.." It is for this reason, one may consider if the first part of expression is referring to a person who might dispense justice. I believe that information exchanged through the list can help test hypothesis. I am not committed to "kuyavan2" as a "great" being. But it is a hypothesis which should be tested and rejected if found wanting, but should be tested nevertheless. The etymology of "kuyavan2" from "kU" is discussed in a separate posting. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 25 00:18:05 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 19:18:05 -0500 Subject: "kuyava" and "ku (was "Re: solution to the "kuyava' etymology) Message-ID: <161227035076.23782.9200001064174677260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-20 07:53:15 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << This root kuy- is related to PD *ku: 'crow, cry, shout, call' etc. How in the world can it be the basis of kuy-awa..'potter' on this root? >> In Telugu Verbal Bases, the etymology of Te. kUyu to howl, cry, as animals, birds; to make outcry; to shout; call, prate; kUyi n. an outcry for help, an appeal, protection, etc. are traced to PDr. *kUy-/*kU-. The connection of this root with potter can be understood in light of his function as a priest. Tamil literature provides clear linkage between the two. Even today, in Tamil, the most common word for "calling/summoning/inviting somebody" is "kUppiTu". This is derived from "kU" or as Krishnamurthy has indicated *ku. Consider the following examples: katumen2a karaintu vam en2a kUuy (porunarARRuppaTai 101) Here the king calling/inviting the bards is expressed by "kUuy". kalam cey kammiyar varuka en2ak kUuy (maNimEkalai 25.124) Here calling/inviting smiths is expressed by "kUuy" tAyil tUvA kuzavi pOla OvAtu kUum nin2 uTaRRiyOr nATE (puRanAnURu 4.18-19) Here the crying for succour (indicated using "kUum") by the people of the country of king's enemies is compared to the hungry(not eating) child without the mother. Thus "KU" is used in connection with calling/inviting/seeking succour. It is also used in the context of worshipping. The following poem by nammAzvAr makes its use in worship very clear. pukazunal oruvan2 en2kO poruvilcIrp pUmiyen2kO tikazumtaN paravai en2kO tIyen2kO vAyu en2kO nikazum AkAcam en2kO nILcuTar iraNtum en2kO ikazvil ivvan2aittum en2kO kaNNanaik kUvumARE (nAlAyirat. 2930) Here the poet says, "Can I say he is one to be praised or he is the earth or he is the ocean or he is the fire or he is the wind or he is the sky or he is both the sun and the moon or he is all of these? How can I praise/adore krSNa?". In the last line the word used to denote "praise/adore" is "KUvu". In a poem by ANTAL, she says the following, "kUTTiliruntu kiLiyeppOtum kOvintA kOvintA enRU azaikkum UTTuk koTAtu ceRuppan2Akil ulakaLantAn2 enRu uyarak kUvum... (nalAyirat. 625) Here the devotee separated from kRSNa is getting mad at the parrot that keeps praising kRSNa. She says, "Staying inside the cage, the parrot will always call/praise "O Govinda! O Govinda". When I punish it by not giving food, it will call/praise loudly saying "He who measured the world". Here, the words "azai" and "kUvu" are used synonymously. It is in this sense "kuyavan2" might mean one who calls/summons/invites/praises the divinity in his role as priest. It looks as though "kuyavan2" was the potter-priest while "veLkO" or "vETkO" could have been the potter-warrior/chieftain. In RV 103.8, the negative interpretation "one who babbles" does not seem appropriate to be applied to just one of many non-RV-Aryan enemies, who all must be speaking non-RV-Aryan languages. On the other hand, if the name was Dravidian, they would not call themselves by such negative epithets. As I had mentioned in another posting, the earliest attestation of "kuyavan2" occurs in a "priestly" context. As the Sanskritization of the society increased, the origin of the name from a priestly role was probably forgotten and both "vELar" and "kuyavan2" being treated synonymously in all aspects. Any comments will be appreciated. Regards S. Palaniappan From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sat Jan 24 21:45:37 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 19:45:37 -0200 Subject: Languages ( was : Yiddish translation of Gita Message-ID: <161227035070.23782.8089220987828443974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- >Dan Lusthaus You're lucky for I'll respect the Administrator''s request and not answer to your provocation. Jesualdo Correia From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 25 09:19:03 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 14:19:03 +0500 Subject: MacAuley's criticism of PurANic oceans Message-ID: <161227035078.23782.15320064577721522769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please try H. Sharp (ed.), Selections from Educational Records, Part I, 1781-1839. Calcutta : Superintentent Govt Printing (1920) Also Sir George Otto Trevelyan, The Life and Letters of Lord Macaulay, 2vols. New York: harper and Row (1908) At 12:20 24/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:15 PM 1/6/98 +0500, you wrote: >>At 11:42 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>>I have heard that MacAuley makes some critical remarks about the various >>>oceans of ghee, liquor, etc. described in the PurANas. Do you know in what >>>publication he makes such statements? >>> >>The reference occurs in Thomas Babington Macaulay's famous Minute on English >>Education in India dated 2nd February 1835. You will find the Minute in the >>collected works of Macaulay. > >I have looked in vain through four different collections of Macaulay's works >for this 'famous' Minute on education, and I am wondering if any of you have >an exact reference for this. > >Thank you for your help. > >Chris Beetle > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 25 09:19:07 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 14:19:07 +0500 Subject: "kuyava" and "ku (was "Re: solution to the "kuyava' etymology) Message-ID: <161227035079.23782.2846818722701168294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My reaction to all this kind of discussion is to say "kuyyo: moRRo:".BhK. I hate to run classes on comparative Dravidian on internet. Thanks. At 19:18 24/01/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-20 07:53:15 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > ><< This root kuy- is related to PD *ku: 'crow, cry, shout, call' etc. How in >the world can it be the basis of kuy-awa..'potter' on this root? >> > >In Telugu Verbal Bases, the etymology of Te. kUyu to howl, cry, as animals, >birds; to make outcry; to shout; call, prate; kUyi n. an outcry for help, an >appeal, protection, etc. are traced to PDr. *kUy-/*kU-. The connection of >this root with potter can be understood in light of his function as a priest. >Tamil literature provides clear linkage between the two. > >Even today, in Tamil, the most common word for "calling/summoning/inviting >somebody" is "kUppiTu". This is derived from "kU" or as Krishnamurthy has >indicated *ku. Consider the following examples: > >katumen2a karaintu vam en2a kUuy (porunarARRuppaTai 101) > >Here the king calling/inviting the bards is expressed by "kUuy". > >kalam cey kammiyar varuka en2ak kUuy (maNimEkalai 25.124) > >Here calling/inviting smiths is expressed by "kUuy" > >tAyil tUvA kuzavi pOla >OvAtu kUum nin2 uTaRRiyOr nATE (puRanAnURu 4.18-19) >Here the crying for succour (indicated using "kUum") by the people of the >country of king's enemies is compared to the hungry(not eating) child without >the mother. > >Thus "KU" is used in connection with calling/inviting/seeking succour. It is >also used in the context of worshipping. The following poem by nammAzvAr makes >its use in worship very clear. > >pukazunal oruvan2 en2kO >poruvilcIrp pUmiyen2kO >tikazumtaN paravai en2kO >tIyen2kO vAyu en2kO >nikazum AkAcam en2kO >nILcuTar iraNtum en2kO >ikazvil ivvan2aittum en2kO >kaNNanaik kUvumARE (nAlAyirat. 2930) > >Here the poet says, "Can I say he is one to be praised or he is the earth or >he is the ocean or he is the fire or he is the wind or he is the sky or he is >both the sun and the moon or he is all of these? How can I praise/adore >krSNa?". In the last line the word used to denote "praise/adore" is "KUvu". > >In a poem by ANTAL, she says the following, > >"kUTTiliruntu kiLiyeppOtum >kOvintA kOvintA enRU azaikkum >UTTuk koTAtu ceRuppan2Akil >ulakaLantAn2 enRu uyarak kUvum... (nalAyirat. 625) > >Here the devotee separated from kRSNa is getting mad at the parrot that keeps >praising kRSNa. She says, "Staying inside the cage, the parrot will always >call/praise "O Govinda! O Govinda". When I punish it by not giving food, it >will call/praise loudly saying "He who measured the world". Here, the words >"azai" and "kUvu" are used synonymously. > >It is in this sense "kuyavan2" might mean one who >calls/summons/invites/praises the divinity in his role as priest. It looks as >though "kuyavan2" was the potter-priest while "veLkO" or "vETkO" could have >been the potter-warrior/chieftain. > >In RV 103.8, the negative interpretation "one who babbles" does not seem >appropriate to be applied to just one of many non-RV-Aryan enemies, who all >must be speaking non-RV-Aryan languages. On the other hand, if the name was >Dravidian, they would not call themselves by such negative epithets. As I had >mentioned in another posting, the earliest attestation of "kuyavan2" occurs in >a "priestly" context. As the Sanskritization of the society increased, the >origin of the name from a priestly role was probably forgotten and both >"vELar" and "kuyavan2" being treated synonymously in all aspects. > >Any comments will be appreciated. > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sun Jan 25 20:48:18 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 14:48:18 -0600 Subject: Q. Maaluwa Message-ID: <161227035083.23782.2158038034936939980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Was there a line of chiefs called Maluwas (MaaLuvar in Tamil) in Southern India? N.Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sun Jan 25 21:22:02 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 15:22:02 -0600 Subject: Telegu Inscription Message-ID: <161227035085.23782.10170202506320610394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some Chola inscriptions talk of soldiers from Kongu country (Coimbatore region) offered their heads at Srisailam on their own. (NavakaNTham offering) A useful reference could be: N. Subrahmanian, Self-immolation in Tamil society. Madurai, 1983, 107 p. (Many US libraies have this) Kalingattup paraNi, a prabandham describing Kulottunga I's war war in Kalinga country in 1112 AD has graphic details of self-oblation. Soldiers willingly giving their heads at Kali's feet. One of the many couplets: aTik kazuttinuTan cirattai arivaraalO! arin^ta ciram aNangin kaik koTupparaalO! koTutta ciram koRRavaiyaip paravumaalO! kuRai uTalam kumpiTTu niRkumaalO! My thinking is medical treatment was not improved in those days. Instead of suffering, they preferred to die. But of course, some died because their religious cults. N. Ganesan From umadevi at SFO.COM Sun Jan 25 23:56:11 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 15:56:11 -0800 Subject: Telegu Inscription Message-ID: <161227035089.23782.1447310676908588508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear N. Ganesan, Thanks for your comment. I've read N. Subrahmanian's article. I have been working on this for 4 years, so at this point I have run across numerous south Indian references to self-sacrifice in poetry and inscriptional material, but it is always interesting to find something new. The Chola reference you mention is also supported by imagery. Do you have any knowledge of pertinent Pallava inscriptional evidence (there is, of course a great deal, of sculptural imagery) ? Your idea about medical reasons for self-sacrifice are interesting, and may indeed have been the impetus for some oblations. I think, however that most self-oblations stemmed from religious fervor or even military bravado rather than medical necessity. Thanks for your help, Mary From roheko at MSN.COM Sun Jan 25 19:35:33 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 20:35:33 +0100 Subject: "kuyava" and "ku (was "Re: solution to the "kuyava' etymology) Message-ID: <161227035081.23782.12756810624276893496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Me too. I disabled the incoming of certain emails -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Bh. Krishnamurti An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Sonntag, 25. Januar 1998 09:50 Betreff: Re: "kuyava" and "ku (was "Re: solution to the "kuyava' etymology) >My reaction to all this kind of discussion is to say "kuyyo: moRRo:".BhK. I >hate to run classes on comparative Dravidian on internet. Thanks. > >At 19:18 24/01/98 EST, you wrote: >>In a message dated 98-01-20 07:53:15 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: >> >><< This root kuy- is related to PD *ku: 'crow, cry, shout, call' etc. How in >>the world can it be the basis of kuy-awa..'potter' on this root? >> >> >>In Telugu Verbal Bases, the etymology of Te. kUyu to howl, cry, as animals, >>birds; to make outcry; to shout; call, prate; kUyi n. an outcry for help, an >>appeal, protection, etc. are traced to PDr. *kUy-/*kU-. The connection of >>this root with potter can be understood in light of his function as a priest. >>Tamil literature provides clear linkage between the two. >> >>Even today, in Tamil, the most common word for "calling/summoning/inviting >>somebody" is "kUppiTu". This is derived from "kU" or as Krishnamurthy has >>indicated *ku. Consider the following examples: >> >>katumen2a karaintu vam en2a kUuy (porunarARRuppaTai 101) >> >>Here the king calling/inviting the bards is expressed by "kUuy". >> >>kalam cey kammiyar varuka en2ak kUuy (maNimEkalai 25.124) >> >>Here calling/inviting smiths is expressed by "kUuy" >> >>tAyil tUvA kuzavi pOla >>OvAtu kUum nin2 uTaRRiyOr nATE (puRanAnURu 4.18-19) >>Here the crying for succour (indicated using "kUum") by the people of the >>country of king's enemies is compared to the hungry(not eating) child without >>the mother. >> >>Thus "KU" is used in connection with calling/inviting/seeking succour. It is >>also used in the context of worshipping. The following poem by nammAzvAr makes >>its use in worship very clear. >> >>pukazunal oruvan2 en2kO >>poruvilcIrp pUmiyen2kO >>tikazumtaN paravai en2kO >>tIyen2kO vAyu en2kO >>nikazum AkAcam en2kO >>nILcuTar iraNtum en2kO >>ikazvil ivvan2aittum en2kO >>kaNNanaik kUvumARE (nAlAyirat. 2930) >> >>Here the poet says, "Can I say he is one to be praised or he is the earth or >>he is the ocean or he is the fire or he is the wind or he is the sky or he is >>both the sun and the moon or he is all of these? How can I praise/adore >>krSNa?". In the last line the word used to denote "praise/adore" is "KUvu". >> >>In a poem by ANTAL, she says the following, >> >>"kUTTiliruntu kiLiyeppOtum >>kOvintA kOvintA enRU azaikkum >>UTTuk koTAtu ceRuppan2Akil >>ulakaLantAn2 enRu uyarak kUvum... (nalAyirat. 625) >> >>Here the devotee separated from kRSNa is getting mad at the parrot that keeps >>praising kRSNa. She says, "Staying inside the cage, the parrot will always >>call/praise "O Govinda! O Govinda". When I punish it by not giving food, it >>will call/praise loudly saying "He who measured the world". Here, the words >>"azai" and "kUvu" are used synonymously. >> >>It is in this sense "kuyavan2" might mean one who >>calls/summons/invites/praises the divinity in his role as priest. It looks as >>though "kuyavan2" was the potter-priest while "veLkO" or "vETkO" could have >>been the potter-warrior/chieftain. >> >>In RV 103.8, the negative interpretation "one who babbles" does not seem >>appropriate to be applied to just one of many non-RV-Aryan enemies, who all >>must be speaking non-RV-Aryan languages. On the other hand, if the name was >>Dravidian, they would not call themselves by such negative epithets. As I had >>mentioned in another posting, the earliest attestation of "kuyavan2" occurs in >>a "priestly" context. As the Sanskritization of the society increased, the >>origin of the name from a priestly role was probably forgotten and both >>"vELar" and "kuyavan2" being treated synonymously in all aspects. >> >>Any comments will be appreciated. >> >>Regards >> >>S. Palaniappan >> >> >end >Bh. Krishnamurti >H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" >Street No.9, Tarnaka >Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. >India >Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 >E-mail: > From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 26 03:01:24 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 22:01:24 -0500 Subject: women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035093.23782.18256048319974021091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone point me to any references in any genre of Sanskrit texts where it is explicitly stated that women, as an essentialized gender group (ie not references to individuals) are in any way less intelligent than men? I know there are various tirades about women's fickleness and propensity for enjoyment in the Mahabharata, Manu and sannyasa sutras, etc, but I am particularly looking for statements referring to the intelligence, or rational faculty, of women as a group. The Sanskrit references (and context) of any such statements would be helpful. Thank you, Edwin Bryant From arbs at EROLS.COM Mon Jan 26 10:43:58 1998 From: arbs at EROLS.COM (Asian Rare Books) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 05:43:58 -0500 Subject: a few Indian tribal ethnology books for sale Message-ID: <161227035098.23782.17237509881884027536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Asian Rare Books has the following for sale selected from our larger stock. P.C. Ray: The Lodha and Their Spirit-Possessed Men. Calcutta 1969. K.N. Thusu: Dhurwa of Bastar. Calcutta 1965. T. Sinha: Psyche of the Garos. Calcutta 1966. S. Banerjee: Ethnographic Study of the Kuvi-Kandha. Calcutta 1969. All are clothbound. Some illust. Dustjackets. Reasonably priced but to avoid overt comercialism I desist from posting with pricetag dangling! Please inquire if interested! Stephen Feldman/Asian Rare Books http://www.erols.com/arbs/ From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 26 00:51:51 1998 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 06:21:51 +0530 Subject: maaluwa Message-ID: <161227035091.23782.1795645074421811311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi,---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > Was there a line of chiefs called Maluwas (MaaLuvar in Tamil) > in Southern India? > > Kathiraiver Pillai's tamil lexicon has an entry: mALuvEntar= mALavatEcattAr. Madras Univ.'s Tamil Lexicon cites cilappatikAram, 30,159: mALuvam = mALavam, the country of Malwa (cIvaka. 2159). regards, kalyanaraman From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 26 15:49:50 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 07:49:50 -0800 Subject: Naciketas Message-ID: <161227035114.23782.13913063373263147328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shalom to all, In response to my previous message, E. Harzer Clear suggested that I consult M. Mayrhofer?s etimology dictionary, for the meaning of the name "Naciketas". Since Mayrhofer does not deal with the name, nighter with the term "naci", I address you again: Charpentier (Indian Antiqary, vol. 57, 1928, p. 205 note 38) rejects the traditional interpretation "na+ciketas", endorsed by Bohtlingk, as "without any value". He reads the name as "naci+ketas", following Prof. Wackernagel?s observation that "naci is the form of nakra, to be used as the first part of a compound". Thus he finds it parallel to Kamadeva's epithet - "Makaraketu", and hence similar to the name "Svetaketu" of the Chandogya Upanisad. I shall be very grateful for any comments, information and sources, concerning the name Naciketas, and specially for answers on two questions: 1. What does the term "naci" mean, and how does it relate to nakra or nakraa? 2. How is Naciketas related to Kama, when he rejected cmpletely all the pleasures of love, according to the story in Kathopanishad? Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 26 03:47:35 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 08:47:35 +0500 Subject: Telegu Inscription In-Reply-To: <01ISSRC4Q20Y0029WB@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035095.23782.13158051438447151788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:22 PM 1/25/98 -0600, you wrote: >Some Chola inscriptions talk of soldiers from Kongu country >(Coimbatore region) offered their heads at Srisailam on their >own. (NavakaNTham offering) > >A useful reference could be: >N. Subrahmanian, Self-immolation in Tamil society. >Madurai, 1983, 107 p. (Many US libraies have this) > >Kalingattup paraNi, a prabandham describing Kulottunga I's war >war in Kalinga country in 1112 AD has graphic details of self-oblation. >Soldiers willingly giving their heads at Kali's feet. > >One of the many couplets: > > aTik kazuttinuTan cirattai arivaraalO! > arin^ta ciram aNangin kaik koTupparaalO! > koTutta ciram koRRavaiyaip paravumaalO! > kuRai uTalam kumpiTTu niRkumaalO! > >My thinking is medical treatment was not improved in those days. >Instead of suffering, they preferred to die. But of course, >some died because their religious cults. > >N. Ganesan > > >?From "Impact of the Saiva religion on memorial stones in Andhra Pradesh with special reference to Rayalaseema" by R.Chandrasekhara Reddy in the Silver Jubilee issue of Srisaila Prabha, 1989.( page 207) ======================================================================= "Loss of essential material intended for worship due to the devotee's oversight, or non-availability of the necessary pUjadravyAs according to the owe taken by him inspite of his sincere efforts, is in some cases considered to be one of the important reasons for self-sacrifice. The devotee takes such circumstances as god given opportunity to prove his deep devotion and smilingly offer his own limbs, which may stand as a substitute for the intended flowers which are not easily available, or offering one's own head if the necessary fruit is not available, is noticeable in some cases. ....................................................................... "An inscription at ZrIzailam temple of Kurnool district, dated saka 1299 (1378 A.D) that the king anavEma ReDDi constructed vIrazirOmaNDapa before the main temple of MallikArjuna of ZrIzailam where some Zaiva devotees used to cut off their heads, tongues and hands and offered to the God Ziva. It was the prevailing belief at once they attained the form of Ziva with 3 eyes, 10 hands and five faces." ======================================================================= The vIrazirOmanDapam can be seen in Zrizailam temple. regards, sarma. From jage at LOC.GOV Mon Jan 26 14:06:23 1998 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:06:23 -0500 Subject: Forwarded mail.... Message-ID: <161227035107.23782.16149926423746117802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Monday, January 26, 1998 Since it mentions publishing in India this may be of intertest. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:10:04 -0500 From: Jacques Michon Reply-To: "SHARP-L Society for the History of Authorship, Reading & Publishing" To: SHARP-L at LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU CALL FOR PROPOSALS Please feel free to cross-post to any other relevant lists. Dear colleague, Since the publication of the four-volume Histoire de l'?dition fran?aise (1983-86), a variety of research projects has led to the publication of regional or national histories of publishing. Soon it will be time to take stock of results thus far achieved on a world-wide scale; in other words, to make a general, if provisional, survey. Thanks to such a survey, scholars will have a better chance of avoiding errors in perspective, and the research projects they have already launched stand to gain from a more comprehensive view of results so far obtained. For these reasons, the Universit? de Sherbrooke's Groupe de recherche sur l'?dition litt?raire au Qu?bec has established cooperative links with the Centre d'histoire culturelle of the Universit? de Versailles Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines, the aim being to organize an international colloquium on comparative history to be held in May 2000. Five major themes have been agreed upon: altogether they cover the period running from the mid-18th century to the end of the 20th. We have put together a preliminary agenda that we hope will elicit your suggestions concerning relatively unexplored research areas, principally India, Asia, and Africa. These suggestions will be most welcome. We rely on them to help us perfect the colloquium agenda. Would you kindly inform either Jacques Michon or Jean-Yves Mollier as soon as possible of your interest in this projected conference. And perhaps you may wish to cooperate in some more tangible way. Sincerely yours, Jacques Michon GRELQ Universit? de Sherbrooke Sherbrooke, Qu?bec J1K 2R1 Fax: 819 821 7285 E-mail: jmichon at login.net Jean-Yves Mollier Centre d'histoire culturelle des soci?t?s contemporaines Universit? de Versailles Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines 47, Bd Vauban 78047 Guyancourt Cedex Fax: 01 39 25 53 00 INTERNATIONAL COLLOQUIUM - SHERBROOKE 2000 FROM OLD EUROPE TO NEW WORLDS The changes in publishing from the 18th century to the year 2000 Organizers: Jacques MICHON and Jean-Yves MOLLIER Universit? de Sherbrooke May 2000 Preliminary agenda, December 1997 1. THREE EUROPEAN PUBLISHING MODELS STRIVING FOR GLOBAL DIFFUSION A. British Model B. French Model C. German Model 2. EXPORT OF NATIONAL MODELS AND GROWTH OF LARGE PUBLISHING HOUSES A. British Model United States Australia India Canada France B. French Model Spain and South America Italy Switzerland Belgium North America Africa C. German Model Northern Europe Other countries 3. DEVELOPMENT OF HOMEGROWN PUBLISHING SYSTEMS United States English Canada French Canada (Qu?bec) Australia India Northern Europe French-speaking Europe Spanish America Portuguese America French-speaking Africa English-speaking Africa 4. CIRCULATION OF IDEAS AND INNOVATIONS The novel Children's literature Religious literature Scientific literature Almanacs Dictionaries International meetings of publishers 5. ELEVATING BOOKS TO THE STATUS OF A MASS MEDIUM THE TRIUMPH OF A FORMER COLONY, EXPORT OF THE AMERICAN MODEL Cher (e) coll?gue, Depuis la publication des quatre volumes de L'Histoire de l'?dition fran?aise (1983-1986), les projets et publications d'histoires r?gionales ou nationales de l'?dition se sont multipli?s. L'heure d'une premi?re synth?se mondiale, provisoire, approche. Elle devrait permettre d'?viter les erreurs de perspective et enrichir les recherches en cours. C'est pourquoi le Groupe de recherche sur l'?dition litt?raire au Qu?bec de l'Universit? de Sherbrooke et le Centre d'histoire culturelle de l'Universit? de Versailles Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines ont pris l'initative d'organiser en mai 2000 un colloque international d'histoire compar?e. Cinq th?mes ont ?t? retenus, destin?s ? couvrir la p?riode qui court du milieu du XVIIIe si?cle ? la fin du XXe si?cle. L'avant-projet que nous vous soumettons est destin? ? susciter des recherches sp?cifiques dans les espaces encore peu travaill?s : Inde, Asie, Afriquc notamment. Vos suggestions seront les bienvenues et serviront ? affiner ce programme. Nous vous demandons de confirmer votre accord ou d'indiquer des collaborations possibles en vous adressant ? Jacques Michon ou ? Jean-Yves Mollier. Dans l'attente, de vous lire, nous vous prions de croire, Cher(e) Coll?gue, ? l'expression de nos sentiments les plus cordiaux. Jacques Michon GRELQ Universit? de Sherbrooke Sherbrooke, Qu?bec J1K 2R1 Fax: 819 821 7285 E-mail: jmichon at login.net Jean-Yves Mollier Centred'histoire culturelle des soci?t?s contemporaine Universit? de Versailles Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines 47, Bd Vauban 78047 Guyancourt Cedex Fax: 01 39 25 53 00 COLLOQUE INTERNATIONAL - SHERBROOKE 2000 DE LA VIEILLE EUROPE AUX NOUVEAUX MONDES Les mutations du livre et de l'?dition du XVIIIe si?cle ? l'an 2000 Responsables: Jacques MICHON et Jean-Yves MOLLIER Universit? de Sherbrooke mai 2000 Avant-projet, novembre 1997 1. TROIS MOD?LES ?DITORIAUX EUROP?ENS ? L'ASSAUT DU MONDE A. Mod?le britannique B. Mod?le fran?ais C. Mod?le allemand 2. EXPORTATION DES MOD?LES NATIONAUX ET EXPANSION DES GRANDES SOCI?T?S A. Mod?le britannique ?tats-Unis Australie Inde Canada France B. Mod?le fran?ais Espagne et Am?rique du Sud Italie Suisse Belgique Am?rique du Nord Afrique C. Mod?le allemand Europe du Nord Autre pays 3. AUTONOMISATION DES SYST?MES ?DITORIAUX ?tats-Unis Canada anglais Canada fran?ais (Qu?bec) Australie Inde Europe du Nord Europe francophone Am?rique espagnole Am?rique portugaise Afrique francophone Afrique anglophone 4. CIRCULATION DES ID?ES ET DES INNOVATIONS Le roman Le livre de jeunesse Le livre religieux Le livre scientifique L'almanach Les dictionnaires Les congr?s internationaux d'?diteurs 5. MASSM?DIATISATION DU LIVRE LE TRIOMPHE D'UNE ANCIENNE COLONIE, EXPORTATION DU MOD?LE AM?RICAIN Jacques Michon Universit? de Sherbrooke Sherbrooke, Qu?bec J1K 2R1 Fax: 819-821-7285 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Jan 26 15:07:28 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:07:28 -0600 Subject: Telegu inscription Message-ID: <161227035109.23782.13411637204994691423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The self-oblation in Pallava inscriptions must be checked from the monumental book: T. V. Mahalingam, Inscriptions of the Pallavas, Delhi, 1988, 818 p. It is time to put the vast number of inscriptions, available in plenty in South India, on the web. Like Univ. of Koeln website of tamil texts, the Pallava, Chola, Pandya, Rashtrakuta, Chalukya and Vijayanagar inscriptions must be made available on the net. Hope thatday is not far off to check about self-oblation thru URL addresses! If Mary Storm writes a paper or thesis, I want to know the reference. Thanks, N. Ganesan From umadevi at SFO.COM Mon Jan 26 17:18:57 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:18:57 -0800 Subject: Telegu Inscription Message-ID: <161227035119.23782.5090063257085425660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sarma, Thanks for the reference to R, Chandrasekhara Reddy's article.I will check it out. He has also published a slim volume on Hero cults in A.P., titled Heroes, Cults and Memorials. Madras, 1994. The Srisailam temple has a number of interesting images which I have been working on. Mary From umadevi at SFO.COM Mon Jan 26 17:29:23 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:29:23 -0800 Subject: Telegu inscription Message-ID: <161227035121.23782.4679375816314854651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear N. Ganesan, I have already looked through the T.V. Mahalingam complilation of inscriptions. Thanks for the suggestion. I was hoping you might have run across some odd tid bit somewhere else. You wrote that you are interested in a reference: As I mentioned in the first "Telegu Inscription" email I am in the process of writing my Ph.D. dissertation, and am now almost finished. I have been doing this for four years, so I am really looking forward to the end! If you are patient, my dissertation, as are all PhD disserations, will be available from university libraries. Thanks for your interest, Mary From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Jan 26 15:40:00 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:40:00 -0600 Subject: Being Digital Message-ID: <161227035112.23782.17676040849805433962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Rabe, What the respected sthapati, Sri. Vai. Ganapathi Sthapati says can be checked thru' his magnificient work on temple architecture written in early 1970s. The book title is ciRpac cennUl. He got lot help to finish and publish this book from Saw. Ganesan of Karaikkudi, Rajaji and Annadurai. His paramapara is really astonishing and continuous for generations. They are innovators too. His father, Sri. Vaidhyanatha Sthapati built Ramanasramam in Tiruvannaamalai, Gandhi MaNDapam in Chennai, ... V. Ganapathi Sthapati designed Puumpukaar Art Gallery at the place where Kaveri enters the sea. There about 80 basrelief sculptures narrating the entire Cilappatikaaram are awesome. He later built almost a 70 feet temple car mimicking the aazit tEr at tiruvaaruur celebrated from the days of Tevaram saints. This temple car is built out of pure granite. Valluavar kOTTam in Madras, a memorial dedicated to the author of TirukkuRaL has this this temple car. I hear he is designing a very tall TiruvaLLuvar statue for Kanniyakumari. Regards, N. Ganesan From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Jan 26 16:17:59 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 11:17:59 -0500 Subject: Change in LC email addresses Message-ID: <161227035115.23782.13918028881514633419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has permanently disabled SoftSwitch, the system that connected the obsolescent older email system (CA-eMail) to outside addresses, including both individuals and lists. This means that addresses of the form: or are no longer valid. Instead valid addresses will usually look something like or , the "mail" part of the address being gone. The first element will usually be a four-letter abbreviation based on the first and last name of the person. People sending personal messages to addresses of the older type, or administering lists to which the LC person signed on via CA-eMail and SoftSwitch, can expect to receive messages bounced back. As chair of the automation team in the Asian Division I have asked all AD staff to notify correspondents and change list subscriptions. If you are still using an older address, I would be grateful if you contacted your LC contacts directly by phone rather than asking me what their new address is. Having made several new hires and a number of people having had their email address changed recently, we are composing a new directory of Asian Division people including email addresses and I plan to post it on this list soon. Please contact me only as a last resort, and of course privately not on the list. Some people's email addresses can be found in the LC Employee Directory on the Web at: http://lcweb.loc.gov/cgi-bin/p Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 26 11:21:12 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 11:21:12 +0000 Subject: New web documents Message-ID: <161227035100.23782.15784790823627378147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am glad to announce two additions to the "Important position or review papers on indological topics" section of the INDOLOGY web site (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html). The first is Lance Cousins' review article on recent scholarship about the date of the Buddha. The second is an article by Vidyasankar Sundaresan about the lineage of the Sankaracarya tradition of the north. This was sent to me directly after VS heard that this topic had come up recently for discussion on INDOLOGY. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 26 11:41:18 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 11:41:18 +0000 Subject: General interest (China libraries) Message-ID: <161227035102.23782.17943674429676446947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:11:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Wooff To: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Thought this might be of interest to the list... Volume 1, Number 38, January 20, 1995 http://scout.cs.wisc.edu/scout/report/archive/1-20-95.html Council on East Asian Libraries http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~felsing/ceal/welcome.html The Committee on East Asian Libraries was announced in the January 20 issue. Its purpose was and is to act as a forum for East Asian subject librarians to cooperatively develop information resources. The site is highlighted by connections to East Asian subject libraries, selected other international libraries, East Asian and other publishers, connections to CEAL member libraries, and seven meta-pages of pointers to country related information, as well as a pointer to the East Asia WWW Virtual Library. [JS] ------------------------------------------------------------ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jan 26 12:51:17 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 13:51:17 +0100 Subject: New web documents Message-ID: <161227035105.23782.6939545244733378385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The second is an article by Vidyasankar Sundaresan about the lineage of >the Sankaracarya tradition of the north. This was sent to me directly >after VS heard that this topic had come up recently for discussion on >INDOLOGY. Is it just me that screws up, or is there a part of the article missing??? I tried to print it, but it seems somehow to stop with the heading "Svarupananda at Dvaraka". Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Jan 26 21:18:42 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 16:18:42 -0500 Subject: Change in LC email addresses - correction Message-ID: <161227035122.23782.16355785869283575757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It has been pointed out to me that the address I gave in my previous message for the LC Employee Director is incorrect and incomplete. The correct address is: http://lcweb.loc.gov/cgi-bin/phf Sorry for the error. Allen Thrasher From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Jan 26 22:20:47 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 17:20:47 -0500 Subject: Women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035124.23782.14354927185848862336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For assertions of women's intellectual inferiority you could look at the sections entitlted StrI-nindA in traditional anthologies such as the SubhaSitarantabhANDAgAra. Allen Thrasher From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Mon Jan 26 16:32:12 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 17:32:12 +0100 Subject: Naciketas In-Reply-To: <19980126154952.10047.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035117.23782.15153081243950888773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:49:50 Amos Nevo wrote: >In response to my previous message, E. Harzer Clear suggested that I >consult M. Mayrhofer?s etimology dictionary, for the meaning of the name >"Naciketas". Since Mayrhofer does not deal with the name, nighter with >the term "naci", I address you again There is after all a short article -naciketas- in Mayrhofer's (second) dictionary: Et. Wb. des Altindoarischen, Vol.II. (Lieferung 11, 1992), p. 7, with some references to earlier literature. Best regards, Georg v. Simson From vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 26 23:34:56 1998 From: vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM (Martin Epstein) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 18:34:56 -0500 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035126.23782.984648462378959358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much Vidyasankar Sundaresan for such a comprehensive article on the Sankaracarya of the North. I very much appreciate your intelligent and comprehensive response to my question and you have helped me understand a little of what is going on there. A question came up in the reading about qualifications. Who determines the qualifications of a candidate put forth as a Sankaracarya and what qualifications might they be? If one is deemed qualified as Santananda how could be become disqualified? Thank you again for your response. Martin Hello Just a note to say "Hello". Your message here. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Jan 27 01:43:04 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 19:43:04 -0600 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035132.23782.7657974964034131791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you please post the article about the shankaracharya, or at least send me a copy. Thanks Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu PS: ther was an attachment, but it was only a .gif graphic file of a small yellow square. -----Original Message----- From: Martin Epstein To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 5:36 PM Subject: Sankaracarya of the North >Thank you very much Vidyasankar Sundaresan for such a comprehensive article >on the Sankaracarya of the North. I very much appreciate your intelligent >and comprehensive response to my question and you have helped me understand >a little of what is going on there. > >A question came up in the reading about qualifications. Who determines the >qualifications of a candidate put forth as a Sankaracarya and what >qualifications might they be? If one is deemed qualified as Santananda how >could be become disqualified? > >Thank you again for your response. > >Martin > > Hello > > Just a note to say "Hello". >Your message here. > From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Tue Jan 27 05:10:57 1998 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 21:10:57 -0800 Subject: question about Shankara (quotation source) Message-ID: <161227035136.23782.15957971270702088901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: > I would like to know the source of two quotations. The first one reads: zankaraH zankaraH sAkshAd vyAso nArAyaNo hariH. The second reads: caturbhiH saha zishyais tu zankaro'vatarishyati. These occur as citations in a text that I am currently translating. I have not been able to find their source. The second quotation is qualified with iti ArshavAkyAt. This probably refers to a Purana as its source.< Lines very similar to the second quotation occur in ;Sriimaccha:nkara-digvijaya (1.42cd-43ab) attributed to Maadhava or Vidyaara.nya: caturbhi.h sahita.h ;si.syai;s caturair harivad bhujai.h / yatiindra.h ;sa:nkaro naamnaa bhavi.syaami mahii-tale // A first person form, bhavi.syaami is used here because god ;Sa:nkara is the speaker. As the various ;Sa:nkara-vijayas overlap with each other in content, a line exactly or more similar to the one MD is trying to trace may exist in one of them. Of MD's first quotation, the reading I remember is naaraaya.na.h svayam, that is svaya.m in place of hari.h, which avoids redundancy and balances saak.saat. The second line went something like tayos tu vigrahe praapte na jaane ki.m karomy aham. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Jan 27 02:31:41 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 21:31:41 -0500 Subject: question about Shankara Message-ID: <161227035134.23782.12337278810980682351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While we are discussing Shankara tradition, I would like to know the source of two quotations. The first one reads: zankaraH zankaraH sAkshAd vyAso nArAyaNo hariH. The second reads: caturbhiH saha zishyais tu zankaro'vatarishyati. These occur as citations in a text that I am currently translating. I have not been able to find their source. The second quotation is qualified with iti ArshavAkyAt. This probably refers to a Purana as its source. With best wishes, Madhav Deshpande From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Jan 27 06:19:00 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 00:19:00 -0600 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: <01bd2ac4$e9064220$12cc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227035138.23782.14360729178635098629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I meant to post this a few days ago but have not had time to look in my notes of a trip I made to Joshimath / Jyotir Math in 1991. So what follows is from memory. In 1939 the well known Banaras Swami called Swami Karpatriji ("who uses his hand - kara - for a dinner plate pAtrI), who had been initiated into the da"snAmI order some years earlier by Brahmananda Sarasvati and given the name Svami Hariharananda Sarasvati, held a meeting in Allahabad to fill the vacant seat of the northern pI.th. In attendance, it is said, were the other Sankaracaryas (Kanchi excepted). The position went to Brahmananda Sarasvati himself, no surprise based on Karpatri's respected position. By the year 1953, when Brahmananda Sarasvati died, a rift developed between him and Karpatriji, and in his will Brahmananda left a list of his preferred successors, all of whom were his disciples, in order of preference. The first was Akhandananda Sarasvati, who by then had a big mission in Bombay, and turned down the position.. The next on the list was named Abhedananda Sarasvati. I didn't learn anything about him, but he also declined. The third was shantananda Sarasvati, who accepted. This, so the story goes, enraged Karpatriji, who decided to hold another convocation with other Shankaracaryas, in order to choose Brahmananda's successor. His authority, so it is said, was a passage in some Sankaradigvijaya which dictated this procedure. I do not know this passage, but maybe it's there. This supposedly "sAstrIya method then came into conflict with "tradition," namely a Sankaracarya or Mahant choosing his own successor. Karpatri held his meeting and selected someone whose name I only half remember" XYZ Ashram (Ashram is one of the da"snAmI" orders). I remember his photo from the wall at Jyotir Math: thin, shaved head, elderly. Thus began the lawsuits which I believe still are going on today. They were at least in 1991, with no end in sight, though they had reached the Allahabad High Court by then. XYZ Ashram died in 1972, after which Svarupananda Sarasvati, already Shankaracarya of Dvaraka, assumed the mantle of Jyotir Math. I believe he is still alive. Shantananda Sarasvati resigned his post in 1979(?), I believe, and was succeeded by Vishnudavananda Sarasvati. I believe he died a few years ago and another successor now occupies the gaddi. I have his name written down somewhere. Maybe someday I'll actually find it. The lawsuit ostensibly presented an interesting case of classical authority (the passage from an old Sanskrit text) vs. AcAra, the prevailing practice. I thought it might be a nice idea for a piece of research. I mentioned it to Richard Lariviere, who told me to forget it because (and why wasn't it obvious?) the case was probably moved through the courts by the usual mechanism: bribes. Which would have nullified most of the value of studying it. I have heard rumors that Svarupananda's side had won some of the legal skirmishes. Most of my information was from a vakil in Joshimath who had worked on the case in the 1960's. He gave me the name of a solicitor in Delhi who worked on it later, but I was not able to find him; perhaps he had died. He also gave me the name of a solicitor in Calcutta, but I never followed that up. The premises at Jyotir Math were divided in half, a fence between the lower section in the control of Svarupananda (this has a large lecture hall and an Ayurvedic dispensary) and the upper part, under the control of Shantananda and his successors (this has the major temples, homa ku.n.das, and residential space). If ever I can find my notes, I will tell all, so to speak, if anyone is interested. Fred Smith University of Iowa From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Jan 27 00:17:51 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 01:17:51 +0100 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035128.23782.6879253560931866756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: Everytime you post I get an empty gif file as an attachment. >Content-Type: image/gif >Content-ID: <003601bd2ab3$02a7b5e0$c5e06dd1@#vyasa> Is really necessary? If yes, could you tell me what for? If not, could you do something about it? Thanks. Cheers Jacob From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Jan 27 00:24:57 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 01:24:57 +0100 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035130.23782.13283237738241908790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A message intended for Martin Epstein got on list by mistake. Please ignore it and sorry bout it. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 27 13:57:07 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 08:57:07 -0500 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035140.23782.13454037627932940313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I haven't followed this. But couldn't understand the implication of this posting. Is this to understand: a) the succession of Sankaracharyas is a political affair b) India judicial system is corrupt c) some shaven head people have more ego than humility what is the research? Bijoy Misra On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, F. Smith wrote: > I meant to post this a few days ago but have not had time to look in my > notes of a trip I made to Joshimath / Jyotir Math in 1991. So what follows > is from memory. > > In 1939 the well known Banaras Swami called Swami Karpatriji ("who uses > his hand - kara - for a dinner plate pAtrI), who had been initiated into > the da"snAmI order some years earlier by Brahmananda Sarasvati and given > the name Svami Hariharananda Sarasvati, held a meeting in Allahabad to > fill the vacant seat of the northern pI.th. In attendance, it is said, > were the other Sankaracaryas (Kanchi excepted). The position went to > Brahmananda Sarasvati himself, no surprise based on Karpatri's respected > position. > > By the year 1953, when Brahmananda Sarasvati died, a rift developed > between him and Karpatriji, and in his will Brahmananda left a list of his > preferred successors, all of whom were his disciples, in order of > preference. The first was Akhandananda Sarasvati, who by then had a big > mission in Bombay, and turned down the position.. The next on the list was > named Abhedananda Sarasvati. I didn't learn anything about him, but he > also declined. The third was shantananda Sarasvati, who accepted. This, so > the story goes, enraged Karpatriji, who decided to hold another > convocation with other Shankaracaryas, in order to choose Brahmananda's > successor. His authority, so it is said, was a passage in some > Sankaradigvijaya which dictated this procedure. I do not know this > passage, but maybe it's there. This supposedly "sAstrIya method then came > into conflict with "tradition," namely a Sankaracarya or Mahant choosing > his own successor. Karpatri held his meeting and selected someone whose > name I only half remember" XYZ Ashram (Ashram is one of the da"snAmI" > orders). I remember his photo from the wall at Jyotir Math: thin, shaved > head, elderly. Thus began the lawsuits which I believe still are going on > today. They were at least in 1991, with no end in sight, though they had > reached the Allahabad High Court by then. XYZ Ashram died in 1972, after > which Svarupananda Sarasvati, already Shankaracarya of Dvaraka, assumed > the mantle of Jyotir Math. I believe he is still alive. Shantananda > Sarasvati resigned his post in 1979(?), I believe, and was succeeded by > Vishnudavananda Sarasvati. I believe he died a few years ago and another > successor now occupies the gaddi. I have his name written down somewhere. > Maybe someday I'll actually find it. > > The lawsuit ostensibly presented an interesting case of classical > authority (the passage from an old Sanskrit text) vs. AcAra, the > prevailing practice. I thought it might be a nice idea for a piece of > research. I mentioned it to Richard Lariviere, who told me to forget it > because (and why wasn't it obvious?) the case was probably moved through > the courts by the usual mechanism: bribes. Which would have nullified > most of the value of studying it. I have heard rumors that Svarupananda's > side had won some of the legal skirmishes. Most of my information was from > a vakil in Joshimath who had worked on the case in the 1960's. He gave me > the name of a solicitor in Delhi who worked on it later, but I was not > able to find him; perhaps he had died. He also gave me the name of a > solicitor in Calcutta, but I never followed that up. > > The premises at Jyotir Math were divided in half, a fence between the > lower section in the control of Svarupananda (this has a large lecture > hall and an Ayurvedic dispensary) and the upper part, under the control of > Shantananda and his successors (this has the major temples, homa ku.n.das, > and residential space). > > If ever I can find my notes, I will tell all, so to speak, if anyone is > interested. > > Fred Smith > University of Iowa > From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Jan 27 15:21:51 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 09:21:51 -0600 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035143.23782.17039298071484531875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra writes: a) the succession of Sankaracharyas is a political affair b) India judicial system is corrupt c) some shaven head people have more ego than humility what is the research? I'm just reporting, I'm not someone with a vested interest. But I might have been unclear in my posting last night. As for Bijoy's (a): I'm not sure "political" is the right word. Of the two claimants, one was employing an old Skt text as the lynchpin of his arguments while the other resorted to AcAra. These seem to have been integrated into the modern political system so as to render it a property dispute. As for (b): yes, the judicial system is corrupt, but that's not news. What makes this case difficult to research, and the topic might be the interface of classical dharma"sAstra with modern secular law, is that we have no way of knowing how much the judgments were based exclusively on the merits of the case and how much on exchange of money. It might nevertheless be of some interest to a researcher somewhere to track this case through the various court records. As for Bijoy's (c), I have little to say: everyone alive has some ego, and many even have humility as well, regardless of hair length. Fred Smith From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Tue Jan 27 17:47:12 1998 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 09:47:12 -0800 Subject: women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035149.23782.9843788363039004238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Edwin Bryant's inquiry Please look up the references under da:ngulapa;n;na/dva:ngulapa;n;na (= Skt. dvya:ngula-praj;na) in Pali (e.g. Rhys Davids and Stede p. 333, right hand column, bottom). Tracing this and similar expressions in Prakrit and Skt dictionaries and concordances should be fruitful, provided they are interpreted in a context-sensitive way, without reading too much of present thought in them. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 27 16:27:39 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 11:27:39 -0500 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035144.23782.13393797320078592526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Still don't get it. are we saying that the succession of sankaacharya gets complicated with various people trying to get on the wagon? regarding law and religion it's interesting that the courts even hear it. Through a personal experience in a local situation i came to know that the local courts (Boston) would even not admit a case that has religion it, unless it's criminal. I think the defeated party in the court case will tell how much bribe transferred hands. In any case, I had observed many years ago when the Sankaracharya of Puri was installed. From all operations it sounded noble and his scholarship seemed amazingly dense. Then he published the book Vedic Mathematics, which became rather controversial.. On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, F. Smith wrote: > Bijoy Misra writes: > a) the succession of Sankaracharyas is a political affair > > b) India judicial system is corrupt > > c) some shaven head people have more ego than humility > > what is the research? > > I'm just reporting, I'm not someone with a vested interest. But I might > have been unclear in my posting last night. As for Bijoy's (a): I'm not > sure "political" is the right word. Of the two claimants, one was > employing an old Skt text as the lynchpin of his arguments while the other > resorted to AcAra. These seem to have been integrated into the modern > political system so as to render it a property dispute. As for (b): yes, > the judicial system is corrupt, but that's not news. What makes this case > difficult to research, and the topic might be the interface of classical > dharma"sAstra with modern secular law, is that we have no way of knowing > how much the judgments were based exclusively on the merits of the case > and how much on exchange of money. It might nevertheless be of some > interest to a researcher somewhere to track this case through the various > court records. As for Bijoy's (c), I have little to say: everyone alive > has some ego, and many even have humility as well, regardless of hair > length. > > Fred Smith > From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Jan 27 16:54:46 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 11:54:46 -0500 Subject: Royal Palaces of Nepal Message-ID: <161227035147.23782.6666705469330795817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There have been several books on the royal palaces of Nepal, records for which from OCLC are given below. Accession number = OCLC number which an interlibrary loan librarian will need. All of these are in the Library of Congress. ACCESSION: 27937506 AUTHOR: Regmi, Jagadish Chandra, 1946- TITLE: Royal palace complex of Kathmandu / EDITION: Ed. 1st. PLACE: Kathmandu : PUBLISHER: Heritage Research, YEAR: 1991 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 60 p., 18 p. of plates : ill., map ; 20 cm. SERIES: Heritage series ; 1 Heritage series (Kathmandu, Nepal) ; 1. NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. 56-60). SUBJECT: Palaces -- Nepal -- Kathmandu. Kathmandu (Nepal) -- Description and travel. Next Record ACCESSION: 14167027 TITLE: The royal buildings and Buddhist monasteries of Nepal : a report on the historic buildings of the Kingdom of Nepal. PLACE: Miyashiro-machi, Saitama-ken, Japan : PUBLISHER: Nippon Institute of Technology, Research Mission for the Study of Old Royal Palaces of the Kingdom of Nepal, YEAR: 1985 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xl, 87, 154, 19 p. : ill. ; 33 cm. NOTES: Title on added t.p.: Neparu no okyu to Bukkyo zoin. English and Japanese. Includes bibliographical references. SUBJECT: Palaces -- Nepal. Monasteries, Buddhist -- Nepal. Historic buildings -- Nepal. OTHER: Nihon Kogyo Daigaku. Neparu Okoku Ko Okyu Chosadan. Neparu no okyu to Bukkyo zoin. Next record [A slightly different ed. of previous, or just a variation in cataloging of one and the same ed.?] ACCESSION: 18912619 TITLE: The royal buildings and Buddhist monasteries of Nepal : a report on the historic buildings of the Kingdom of Nepal. PLACE: [Tokoyo] : PUBLISHER: Chuo-Koron Bijutu Shuppan, YEAR: 1985 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xl, 154, 19 p. : ill. ; 33 cm. NOTES: English and Japanese. Includes bibliographical references. SUBJECT: Palaces -- Nepal. Monasteries, Buddhist -- Nepal. Historic buildings -- Nepal. OTHER: Nihon Kogyo Daigaku. Neparu Okoku Ko Okyu Chosadan. Next Record ACCESSION: 13271028 TITLE: Neparu no toshi to okyu = Cities and royal palaces of Nepal. PLACE: Saitama-ken Miyashiro-machi : PUBLISHER: Nihon Kogyo Daigaku Neparu Okoku Ko Okyu Chosadan, YEAR: 1983 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: [38], 26 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 30 cm. NOTES: Cover title. SUBJECT: Palaces -- Nepal. Cities and towns -- Nepal. Nepal -- Description and travel. OTHER: Nihon Kogyo Daigaku. Neparu Okoku Ko Okyu Chosadan. Cities and royal palaces of Nepal. Next Record ACCESSION: 10876389, 9729275 TITLE: The Royal buildings in Nepal : a report on the old royal palaces of the Kingdom of Nepal. PLACE: Miyashiro-machi, Saitama-ken, Japan : PUBLISHER: Nippon Institute of Technology, YEAR: 1981 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 120 p., [68] p. of plates (some folded) : ill. (some col.) ; 33 cm. NOTES: Title on added t.p.: Neparu no okyu kenchiku. In colophon: copyrighted by Nihon Kogyo Daigaku Neparu Okoku Ko Okyu Chosadan. Text in English and Japanese. Includes bibliographical references. SUBJECT: Palaces -- Nepal. Architecture, Domestic -- Nepal -- Research. OTHER: Nihon Kogyo Daigaku. Neparu Okoku Ko Okyu Chosadan. Neparu no okyu kenchiku. Next Record ACCESSION: 5731675 AUTHOR: Regmi, Mahesh C. (Mahesh Chandra), 1929- TITLE: Thatched huts and stucco palaces : peasants and landlords in 19th-century Nepal / PLACE: New Delhi : PUBLISHER: Vikas, YEAR: 1978 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xii, 173 p. : map ; 23 cm. NOTES: Includes index. Bibliography: p. [165]-169. ISBN: 0706906721 : SUBJECT: Agriculture -- Economic aspects -- Nepal -- History. Land tenure -- Nepal -- History. Social classes -- Nepal. Peasantry -- Nepal. Nepal -- Rural conditions. Next Record [Touching on the palaces via their costs??? Or just mentioning them for a snappier title?] ACCESSION: 18745667 AUTHOR: Regmi, Mahesh C. (Mahesh Chandra), 1929- TITLE: An economic history of Nepal, 1846-1901 / EDITION: 1st ed. PLACE: Varanasi : PUBLISHER: Nath Pub. House, YEAR: 1988 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: x, 184 [i.e. 284] p. ; 23 cm. NOTES: "This volume is the final part of the sequel promised in the author's Thatched huts and stucco palaces ... the first part being The state and economic surplus"--Pref. Includes index. Bibliography: p. [273]-281. SUBJECT: Finance, Public -- Nepal -- History -- 19th century. OTHER: Regmi, Mahesh C. (Mahesh Chandra), 1929- Thatched huts and stucco palaces. Regmi, Mahesh C. (Mahesh Chandra), 1929- State and economic surplus. Hope this helps, Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Jan 27 19:20:30 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (Frederick M. Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 13:20:30 -0600 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035151.23782.5620611836914139620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just read V. Sundaresan's excellent account of this question on Indology. Sorry if I repeated some things he said, and may have said better. I did have a few details that he did not have, however, that might be integrated into his account. One is that I had heard a few years ago that Vishnudevananda Sarasvati expired and was succeeded by Vasudevananda Sarasvati, which may account for VS's confusion over the names (cf. "Other Claimants"). And I reiterate that Karpatri-ji was, according to my sources, behind the lawsuits brought initially in 1955. F Smith Frederick M. Smith Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. + 319-335-2178 (O) + 319-338-7193 (H) + 319-353-2207 (Fax) fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Jan 27 21:59:54 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 16:59:54 -0500 Subject: Religion and philosophy databases Message-ID: <161227035153.23782.4337895519489546231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know any online or CD-ROM bibliographic databases specifically on religion or philosophy? Thanks, From hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Wed Jan 28 01:27:05 1998 From: hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (RAH) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 19:27:05 -0600 Subject: aage naath ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035157.23782.390070040500596063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > "(na) aage naath na piichhe paghaa (pagahaa)" > "(Neither) a nose-ring in front, nor a tail-rope behind." > The initial "na" in neither-nor constructions is VERY commonly omitted-- I > can think of countless other examples in proverbs (e.g., jaan na pahcaan > baRii biibii salaam), poetry, and common speech. (Whereas in an if-then > or when-then construction, the "to" is almost never omitted.) The above is cent per cent correct. RAH goofed, but the dictionary he mentioned didn't. The dictionary assumed that he would understand that the second "na" echoed a dropped "na". It's a good dictionary. RAH, on the other hand, . . . Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies phone 1 204 474-6427 fax 1 204 474-7601 From vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 28 00:29:59 1998 From: vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM (Martin Epstein) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 19:29:59 -0500 Subject: Vitthala, Pundalika and Panduranga Message-ID: <161227035155.23782.662639384333207574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am researching a chant - Jaya Jaya Vitthala. Would anyone know who Pundalika and Panduranga are and what is the significance of Vitthala, who I believe is the incarnation of Visnu, standing on a brick. Also is there significance in the names? The dictionary, i.e. Monier-Williams, does not indicate that. Thank you for your kind response. Martin From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 28 03:39:52 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 22:39:52 -0500 Subject: Dates of tiruvAymozi and tirumantiram Message-ID: <161227035160.23782.17616188265618675123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What are the widely accepted dates for tiruvAymozi and tirumantiram? Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 28 06:25:03 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 01:25:03 -0500 Subject: Question on bRhatkatha Message-ID: <161227035162.23782.4503865759023305289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a Tamil text called "peruGkatai". This is the story of king udayaNa. While there are apparently several versions of this story in IndoAryan, the Tamil text is believed to be based on the Sanskrit version. In this text, there is a character called "cAtaka" of the potter caste, who is an aide of yUgi, udayaNa's minister. cAtaka acts as a messenger between udayaNa's ministers when udayaNa is imprisoned. When udayaNa is regains his kingdom, he rewards him with a title(?) called "peruGkuyam" (great "kuya") and two towns/villages. The text is given below. "............cAtakan2 en2n2um kuLalaRku ERpap peruGkuyam aruLi iruntu in2itu uRaiken2a iraNTu Ur Ittu" (vatsa canto, peruGkatai 4.9.47-49) It will be nice to know if the author koGkuvEL is faithfully reproducing what is in the IA texts or he is inserting customs prevailing in south India. Does anybody know what is said in Prakrit/Sanskrit texts? What is the honor given to the potter called? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Tue Jan 27 22:47:15 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 01:47:15 +0300 Subject: A transgression? Message-ID: <161227035188.23782.8573889911784471382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Wed Jan 28 01:44:50 MSK 1998 >From yavass Wed Jan 28 00:05:58 MSK 1998 On Jan 25 1998 J.R.Gardner wrote: > As I have been reviewing the history of Vedic schoalrship and, especially, > benefitting from T. Elizarenkova's recent 'Language and Style of the Vedic > RSis', it is hard not to marvel and envy the wealth of scholarship from > the former Soviet Union which, to my youthful experience, has only > recently become readily accessible. > > I ask this with some trepidation in light of the possible politics I could > be raising--and so apologize in advance as that is not my intent--but > nonetheless I am quite curious what discourse--if any--and on what topics > with the scholars of the former "eastern block" existed during the cold > war. Further, did detente bring about a change, and if so where (topic > and author-wise) in Indology? Perhaps the veterans in the field might > indulge this inquiry about the recent history -- prior, say, to 1975 -- of > our collective paramparaa? If you are interested in the review material written in English on the history and main trends of Russian Indology in the XX century, you will probably find it useful to acquaint yourself 1) with the article: G.N.Roerich. Indology in Russia. - "The Journal of the Greater India Society", vol. 12, pt.2, Calcutta, 1945 - for the "pre-war", as we still call it in Russia, period. This period ended, in fact, as early as 1937, when all Scherbatsky's pupils were executed or imprisoned as "imperialist agents" and "propagandists of Buddhist religion". Before that, in the 1920-ies and the beginning of the 30-ies there was really some cooperation, exchange of ideas and polemics between Russia and the West - e.g., between Scherbatsky and L.de la Vallee Poussin. Then the Classical Indology was revived in the late 50-ies - by George N. Roerich, who had returned from India to Moscow. Some of his pupils later joined the so called Moscow-Tartu school of Semiotics and published their articles, in particular, in the famous series "Trudy po znakovym systemam" ("Works on Semiotics", a special series of "Acta et Commentationes" of The Tartu University, Estonia). Their work got some response in the West and was reviewed, in particular, by 2) Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty - in an article published in some journal in the U.S. and titled "The Disregarded Scholars" or something like that. Unfortunally, I am unable to give the exact evidence. But, contrary to people's expectations, the detente only worsened the situation in Soviet humanitarian sciences. Brezhnev decided to compensate the concessions he made to the West in politics by strengthening his control over "ideology". Some of Indologists lost their jobs after they signed the letters of protest against the persecution of dissidents, some had a lot of troubles after the fabricated trial in Buryatia of the Buddhist scholar and religious leader B.Dandaron (1972-73). For about 10 years any studies of Buddhism remained practically under ban in the USSR (at least they could not appear in print), and classical Indology in general was looked at by the authorities with suspicion. Many eminent specialists in Classical Indian culture were forced to emigrate - among them A.Pyatigorsky, A.Syrkin, B.Oguibenin and others. But other people stayed, and now the true leaders of Classical Indian studies in Russia - such as T.Ya.Yelizarenkova and V.N.Toporov - still belong to the same generatiom and the same scholarly circle. I think you may find some useful information on the general history of Indian studies in XX century Russia in the book: 3) G.M.Bongard-Levin, A.A.Vigasin. The Image of India. Moscow, 1984. Of course, the sad part of the tale could not be told in it in 1984 due to political censorship. The complete history of modern Russian Indology is yet to be written. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov. From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Tue Jan 27 23:05:19 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 02:05:19 +0300 Subject: correction Message-ID: <161227035212.23782.11077779044885969819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction to my previous letter: "I am unable to give the exact evidence" - "The exact reference" is meant, of course. Sorry, it's the middle of the night here. Yaroslav Vassilkov From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Jan 28 07:47:16 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 08:47:16 +0100 Subject: Vitthala, Pundalika and Panduranga In-Reply-To: <01bd2b83$de1a0800$ede06dd1@#vyasa> Message-ID: <161227035164.23782.14938464155746657120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am researching a chant - Jaya Jaya Vitthala. Would anyone know who >Pundalika and Panduranga are and what is the significance of Vitthala, who I >believe is the incarnation of Visnu, standing on a brick. Also is there >significance in the names? The dictionary, i.e. Monier-Williams, does not >indicate that. Are you sure of your transcription ? That would be easier if the names were puNDarIka, pANDuraGga and viTThala! Under this last name your dictionary will answer you fully. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Wed Jan 28 08:53:09 1998 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 08:53:09 +0000 Subject: Religion and philosophy databases Message-ID: <161227035169.23782.10071100147481828993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, Je pense que LE CD-ROM sur les religions est : TITRE: ATLA religion database on CD-ROM [Donn?es lisibles par machine] NUMEROTATION: 1993-> LIEU/DATE: Evanston : American Theological Library Association, cop. 1993-> COLLATION: DISQUES COMPACTS CD-ROM ; 12 cm. + 1 manuel (21 p.) NOTE: Contient: Religion index one: periodicals (RIO), 1949-1964 ; 1975->. Religion index two: multi-author works (RIT), 1960->. Index to book reviews in religion (IBRR), 1975->. Research in ministry (RIM), 1981->. Methodist reviews index, 1818-1985 NOTE: Pour syst?me IBM et compatibles Pour la philosophie : TITRE UNIF.: Philosopher's index. Palo Alto Calif. [Donn?es lisibles par machine] TITRE: Philosopher's index [Donn?es lisibles par machine] / prod. by the Philosophy Documentation Center, Bowling Green University NUMEROTATION: 1940->. LIEU/DATE: Palo Alto Calif. : Dialog Information Services COLLATION: 1 CD-ROM ; 12 cm + 1 classeur (User's guide ; 26 cm) + 1 fasc. (Quick tour ; 23 cm) COLLECTION: Dialog OnDisc PERIODICITE: Mises ? jour trimestrielles NOTE: Pour IBM PC et compatibles et encore (autre editeur) : TITRE UNIF.: Philosopher's index. Cassington GB. [Donn?es lisibles par machine] TITRE: KR information ondisc philosopher's index [Donn?es lisibles par machine] NUMEROTATION: 1940/91- LIEU/DATE: Cassington GB : Knight-Ridder Information COLLATION: 1 CD-ROM ; 12 cm PERIODICITE: Trimestriel NOTE: Licence 1-3 users pour r?seau LAN, version Windows NOTE: Variante de titre : Philosopher's index Tout de bon et a + Francois At 16:59 27.01.98 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know any online or CD-ROM bibliographic databases >specifically on religion or philosophy? > >Thanks, > > Francois Obrist Section de langues et civilisations orientales Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Jan 28 07:56:59 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 08:56:59 +0100 Subject: Marie-Louise Sjoestedt Message-ID: <161227035167.23782.6604904253265159775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've found "livre de Marie-Louise Sjoestedt" hand-writted at the begin of an old book (Grammont) and this name sounds to me familiar. Do someone knows who was this women? a sanskritist? Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Wed Jan 28 13:57:57 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 08:57:57 -0500 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035179.23782.1398995401040890685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fred Smith writes: > If ever I can find my notes, I will tell all, so to speak, if anyone is > interested. Please do, when you get the time. As regards Bijoy Mishra's comments I fail to see why he took offense at Fred Smith's mail. I found nothing derogatory about the tone of Fred Smith's mail. It is a fact that politics and religion combine together (more a rule than exception!) to form a dirty mess and it is also a fact that bribery is rampant in Indian courts. Why object to calling a spade a spade? Rama. From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Wed Jan 28 09:08:43 1998 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 10:08:43 +0100 Subject: Vitthala, Pundalika and Panduranga Message-ID: <161227035172.23782.16164555511502592200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am researching a chant - Jaya Jaya Vitthala. Would anyone know who >Pundalika and Panduranga are and what is the significance of Vitthala, who I >believe is the incarnation of Visnu, standing on a brick. Also is there >significance in the names? The dictionary, i.e. Monier-Williams, does not >indicate that. > >Thank you for your kind response. > >Martin ViTThala and PANDuraGga are names of the same deity, a form of ViSNu-KRSNa. PuNDarIka or PuNDalIka is the name of a sage devotee of the same. For the myth and cult of this deity prevalent in KarnATaka and MahArASTra you may consult: Deleury, The Cult of ViThobA, Deccan College, Poona, circa 1970. P.-S. Filliozat & V. Filliozat, Hampi-Vijayanagar, The Temple of ViTThala, Sitaram Bhartia Institute of Scientific Research, New Delhi, 1988. Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Wed Jan 28 12:25:31 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 10:25:31 -0200 Subject: Paramparaa Message-ID: <161227035177.23782.5664670765064831236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would someone be able to inform something about Ramezvara Jha and Zrii Gopaala Zaastrii ( Darzana Kezvarii). Both were active in Varanasi during the 70's, the first coming from Kashmir to teach Kashmirian Shivaism and smoTa theory ; the other, 20 years older and his disciple, taught strictly PaaNinian grammar with no concessions to whatever Kaumudi. He considered the krama fundamental for the esoteric side of the Ashtadhyayii. I would be glad to know something of their paramparaa. Jesualdo Correia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Wed Jan 28 09:09:03 1998 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 11:09:03 +0200 Subject: Vitthala, Pundalika and Panduranga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035174.23782.1664004870217229851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>I am researching a chant - Jaya Jaya Vitthala. Would anyone know who >>Pundalika and Panduranga are and what is the significance of Vitthala, who I >>believe is the incarnation of Visnu, standing on a brick. Also is there >>significance in the names? The dictionary, i.e. Monier-Williams, does not >>indicate that. >> >>Thank you for your kind response. >> >>Martin >Deleury, The Cult of ViThobA, Deccan College, Poona, circa 1970. >P.-S. Filliozat & V. Filliozat, Hampi-Vijayanagar, The Temple of ViTThala, >Sitaram Bhartia Institute of Scientific Research, New Delhi, 1988. To this bibliographie suggested by Prof. Filliozat, I can note the following: A important author on the Purandhradasa literature is Karmarkar A.P., Mystic Teachings of the Haridasa of Karnataka, Dharwar, 1939; The Puranic Anthology, Belgaum, 1955. Another important work: Ranade R.D., Pathway to God in Kannada Literature, Poona,1958. Consult also: Aiyangar S.K., Early Histroy of Vaishnavism in South India, Madras, 1920. Bhandarkar R.G., Vaisnavism, saivism and minor religious systems, Varanasi, Motilal,1965 (reprint of Strasbourg, 1913). The Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan (Bombay) has also published books and booklets on Purnadharadasa. Unfortunately I do not have the references here with me. Needless to say that much of the material is found only in Kannada, particularly the Kirtans of Purandharadasa which are sung by all Karnatic musicians and in the homes of devout vaishnavaites in Karnataka and also in Maharashtra. Bookshops in Mysore,Bangalore and Dharwar/Hubli have a number of popular kannada editions. The lyrics are powerful and worth studying and made known in the West. I wish you all well in your research. Contact me if you have aproblems with the Kannada texts. Anand Nayak. Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Jan 28 18:14:02 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 12:14:02 -0600 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North (fwd) Message-ID: <161227035182.23782.14855635390952646435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan, no longer on Indology (though he accesses it from the website), asked me to forward this to the listserv. Fred Smith ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:55:33 -0800 (PST) From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan To: "F. Smith" Subject: Re: Sankaracarya of the North Re: Fred Smith's and Bijoy Misra's mails on this topic - 1. I was unaware that Vishnudevananda had passed away, but my latest information about him is at least ten years old. So it could be possible that Vasudevananda is his disciple/successor, and that the Hinduism Today (Aug. 95) report has the name right. I also want to draw attention to Cenkner's book again, where he mentions Vishnudevananda and one Narayanananda Sarasvati, as possible successors of Santananda. Vasudevananda has not been named in Cenkner's work, but a lot could have changed in the years that have passed. 2. I'm also unaware that there was a serious rift between Hariharananda Sarasvati and his guru, Brahmananda Sarasvati. But then, I must point out that it is exceedingly difficult to get an honest account of events. Hariharananda's followers would naturally downplay the issue, if there were a rift, and all the blame would be attached to Santananda and/or Mahesh Yogi. The opposite camp would probably highlight any rift more than necessary. However, irrespective of the merits of either side, it is clear that Hariharananda's role has been that of the Earl of Warwick, to build upon my Wars of the Roses analogy. 3. Clarification - In 1972, Svarupananda was not the Sankaracarya of Dvaraka. Abhinava Saccidananda Tirtha was alive till 1982, which was when Svarupananda succeeded to the Dvaraka title. A large number of people seem to think that Svarupananda was already the Sankaracarya of Dvaraka before he became the Sankaracarya of Jyotirmath. The reverse is the case, although his Jyotirmath title is not accepted by all. 4. Re: the debate between required qualifications and traditional AcAra - The occupant of the Sankaracarya post is supposed to satisfy criteria of Suci, jitendriya-tva, veda-vedAntAngAdi vicakshaNa-tva. I'm not aware on what grounds Santananda was suspected, but Hariharananda and others seemed to have had their own reasons. An outgoing AcArya has the right to nominate his successor, but the candidate is expected to fulfil such criteria, which are mentioned in the maThAmnAya/mahAnuSAsana texts attributed to Adi Sankaracarya himself. The authenticity of these texts may be doubted, but it is clear that they represent the traditions of the mathas as they have developed over the centuries. Extracts from these texts are given as an appendix in Baldev Upadhyaya's Hindi translation of the mAdhavIya Sankaravijayam, attributed to vidyAraNya (second edition published from Sri Sravananatha Jnanamandiram, Hardwar, 1967). None of the Sankaravijayam texts that I've seen explicitly sets out the requirements for successors to the Sankaracarya title - only the maThAmnAya texts do so. The prAcina and/or bRhat Sankaravijayam texts are known only by name - no mss are available. Neither the mAdhavIya nor the anantAnandagirIya, which are the two most well-known among the currently available Sankaravijaya texts, elaborates upon the qualifications for the Sankaracarya post. mAdhavIya mentions the establishment of mathas in a very general way, and only in one verse. There is no mention of the said qualifications. anantAnandagirIya has two versions. A 19th-century edition from Calcutta (Bibliotheca Indica series, nos. 46, 137 and 138; reprinted in 1982 from Biblio Verlag, Osnabruck) mentions a matha only at Sringeri, and nowhere else, but no qualifications for successors are mentioned. The 1971 edition from University of Madras, prepared by TMP Mahadevan and N Veezhinathan, mentions a matha near Sringeri, and a matha at Kancipuram, but again, no such qualifications for successors are described. There is no mention of the mathas at Dvaraka, Puri and Jyotirmath in this edition also. I seriously question the 1971 version's claim to being a critical edition of this text. Mahadevan and Veezhinathan have allowed their devotion to the Kanchi matha to affect their scholarly judgement. The Sringeri tradition does not accept this text, even in its older, 19th-century version, but the Kanchi matha quotes it often. 5. Most of the lawsuits involved in the Jyotirmath succession controversy were about property. However, given that most of the property had been acquired post-1941, the primary issue is one of who succeeded Brahmananda Sarasvati. I'm not sure if the courts ever decided on this issue, unless a verdict was given about his will. And without studying the legal records, I would not jump to conclusions about the mechanisms by which the property lawsuits were settled. I guess that most of the writs obtained were of the nature of stay-orders, so that status-quo is maintained till the succession gets resolved. I still think that the issue is worthy of research, and more so today, given the political connections of the persons involved, and the projected victory of the BJP in the coming national elections. Besides, in addition to the two main rivals, there is also Madhava Asrama to account for. 6. It should also be remembered that for all the status and prestige associated with the Sankaracarya name, the following that they command often depends upon the individual AcArya's charisma. And there is no guarantee that the loyalty shown to a previous AcArya gets automatically transferred to his successor. Each new Sankaracarya has to rebuild his following, as it were. In institutions with a reasonably old history, the core of the following probably remains intact, but the new AcArya still has to prove himself, in some respects. Glenn Yocum's account of the transition that took place at Sringeri in 1989 has a few pertinent observations in this regard (in A Golden Thread, ed. Raymond B. Williams, Anima Publications, Chambersburg, PA, 1992). And I know of quite a few instances among followers of the Kanchi matha, who do not view Jayendra Sarasvati with the same reverence that they extended to Candrasekharendra Sarasvati. Still, the south Indian mathas have evolved a tradition which tries to smoothen the transition, by holding public ceremonies at the time of Sishya-svIkAra, with respect to the designated successor. A large number of the followers are present, and after the sannyAsa initiation, the Sishya offers pUjA to the guru, followed by the guru offering pUjA to the Sishya. This establishes both the philosophical notion of non-difference between guru and Sishya, and the pragmatic endorsement of the successor maThAdhipati, through a public ritual. Others who are initiated into sannyAsa, but not designated for the maThAdhipati post, do not get the same kind of publicity. Also, after the successor has been inducted, the senior Sankaracarya typically withdraws from matha administration, which is handed over to the junior one. And after the senior Sankaracarya passes away, the accession of the junior to the title is once again a very public ceremony. This is akin to a yuvarAjA's role in a kingdom, where the rAjA is still alive, and his succession to the throne when the rAjA dies. As an aside, it is interesting how the teachers of a philosophy which rejects the efficacy of ritual for liberation accept ritual when it comes to vyAvahArika and laukika issues. This is another poorly understood aspect of the advaita tradition. 6. It seems that the best candidate for a Sankaracarya title is he who least wants the job, but such a person would probably make a very unsatisfactory administrator. Whenever a will decides the succession, the first few nominees decline to take over. The one who becomes the next AcArya is usually the third or fourth choice in the will, and quite often, his motivations in accepting the post are questioned. A maThAdhipati's duties can often conflict with his vows of sannyAsa, but then a maThAdhipati must first be a sannyAsin. Still, one cannot renounce the world and become a sannyAsin, only to become a maThAdhipati and develop an attachment to one's matha. Every maThAdhipati must choose where his optimum lies. This is another feature worthy of research. Candrasekhara Bharati of Sringeri (1912-1954) represents a classic example of a sannyAsin who was a very unwilling maThAdhipati. A number of his own followers were dissatisfied with his apparent neglect of the secular matha administration, and viewed the growing following of the Kanchi matha among south Indian Brahmanas with dismay. And if it is true that a study of religion is basically a study of persons, this is more true in the case of guru/AcArya centered traditions. And as the personal is often political, yes, appointment to the Sankaracarya title is a political affair. It is saved from becoming too political only by those institutions which have a solid tradition of uninterrupted succession. My analogies with an old English war and with Indian kings seem right on dot. The contradictory pulls in the dharma of a maThAdhipati are quite akin to those in the dharma of the classical Indian king. At least at Sringeri, the Sishya-svIkAra, paTTAbhisheka and the annual Navaratri celebrations have traditionally carried more than a hint of royal/courtly atmosphere. 7. As for some shaven-heads having more ego than humility, some of the daSanAmIs will be the first to admit that this is so. After all, every true (vividishA) sannyAsin in the advaita tradition is trying to lose his ego and develop humility, to the point of denying all individuality, but this is easier said than done. One sannyAsin once told me, "unfortunately, not every sannyAsin has lost his attachment to mAyA and its effects." Now, I'm not going to judge any of the principals in the Jyotirmath controversy, but as a general observation, it seems true enough. Vidyasankar From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Jan 28 18:41:00 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 12:41:00 -0600 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North (fwd) Message-ID: <161227035184.23782.6765430872559924709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you both Vidya Sundaresan and Fred Smith for posting Sankaracarya of the North on the net. Edeltraud Harzer Clear From zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Wed Jan 28 21:27:53 1998 From: zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Leonard Zwilling) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 15:27:53 -0600 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035186.23782.7873458303075519124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm presently working on a Tibetan text which is purported to be a translation from a Sanskrit original. In this text the cat is used as an example for a person of savage and devious mentality which is the way cats are still customarily viewed by Tibetans. Can someone tell me whether this conforms to an/the Indian attitude towards the cat. Has anyone written on the cat in Sanskrit literature. Thanks. Leonard Zwilling From raja at GALILEO.IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Jan 29 01:56:48 1998 From: raja at GALILEO.IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 15:56:48 -1000 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035199.23782.13300362825853372932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >it is also a fact that bribery is rampant in Indian >courts. Why object to calling a spade a spade? Maybe you meant the police (not the courts). People in India dread court cases because they could go on forever (I read recently that two property disputes had just "celebrated" their golden jubilee, yes, 50 years in the courts). But it certainly isn't the common perception that "bribery is rampant in Indian courts". On the contrary, the judiciary is probably the only institution that continues to have, generally speaking, a good reputation. Regards, Raja. From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Jan 29 00:08:15 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 16:08:15 -0800 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035192.23782.19303220121342827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Leonard Zwilling, I don't know if you are concerned with modern attitudes towards cats, but I offer this, which might be helpful. In modern India cats are considered unclean, or maybe I should say "polluted" (probably because they clean themselves with their own saliva). Because of this cats are often regarded unfavorably in modern Indian society. Hindus rarely seem to have cats as pets, Muslims more often. The Prophet was himself a famous cat lover. A humourous Hindi short story about a wily cat and it's inadvertant "murder," and the complicated penances engendered, might be apropos and fun for you to read, the story is called "Penance," and is by Bhagavati Charan Varma. Cheers, Mary Storm From silk at WMICH.EDU Thu Jan 29 00:25:38 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 19:25:38 -0500 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035194.23782.17124689375620874251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The Pancatantra tradition knows a story of a deceitful cat. It is >acting like a sadhu and so it deceives the other animals. But its >only intention is -- of course -- to eat them. Of course, this sort of story (I do not know the textual source, if there is one) is illustrated in a striking and humorous manner in the famous bas-relief at Mahabalipuram, with the ascetic cat being done puja to by mice. It is illustrated in H. Zimmer, The Art of Indian Asia, plate 277 (central cleft of the stone, just to the right of the descent of the Ganga, to the right of the lower naga). Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jan 29 00:31:12 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 19:31:12 -0500 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035195.23782.5559510107462371012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Rama Balasubramanian wrote: > Fred Smith writes: > > Fred Smith's mail. It is a fact that politics and religion combine > together (more a rule than exception!) to form a dirty mess and it is > also a fact that bribery is rampant in Indian courts. Why object to > calling a spade a spade? > No offence. I was curious what was the point. To perceive a judge's opinion in a complex case like AcAra etc needs more than bribery. Judicial system could be politicaly driven, but I would disagree that it's bribe-driven. Any personal knowledge? - BM From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 29 04:06:13 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 20:06:13 -0800 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035201.23782.6331242273207458871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mary Storm writes: << Hindus rarely seem to have cats as pets, Muslims more >often. The Prophet was himself a famous cat lover. >A humourous Hindi short story about a wily cat and it's inadvertant >"murder," and the complicated penances engendered, might be apropos andfun for you to read, the story is called "Penance," and is by BhagavatiCharan Varma.>> Interesting, the same story "mArjArahatyA" came up for discussion some time ago in this net. IT is interesting to see that cats are regarded as unclean and inauspicious( vide the Hindi saying "billI rAstA kAT diyA"). The deviousness of the cat is best summed up in the Hindi/Urdu saying "Nau sau choohA khA billI haj kO chalI"( "The cat ate 900 mice and then embarked on the Haj pilgrimage", there are variants about the number of mice consumed, but generically, the saying does exist). Of course, as Jonathan Silk has pointed out, we have the famous sculpture in Mahabalipuram where we find the cat playing the part of the mendicant while eyeing the mice. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Jan 29 01:31:01 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 20:31:01 -0500 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035197.23782.2045956944174301357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-28 15:44:27 EST, zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU writes: << I'm presently working on a Tibetan text which is purported to be a translation from a Sanskrit original. In this text the cat is used as an example for a person of savage and devious mentality which is the way cats are still customarily viewed by Tibetans. Can someone tell me whether this conforms to an/the Indian attitude towards the cat. >> In one of the two Sri Vaishnavite devotional traditions, the love of a cat for its kitten is compared to the love of God for the devotee. (The cat grabs its kitten by the mouth and carries it in contrast to the situation involving a female monkey and its baby where it is the responsibility of the baby monkey to hold on to its mother.) Regards S. Palaniappan From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Wed Jan 28 22:37:49 1998 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 23:37:49 +0100 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: <55675.zwilling@facstaff.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227035190.23782.2262070215831763455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Leonard Zwilling wrote: > I'm presently working on a Tibetan text which is purported to be a > translation from a Sanskrit original. In this text the cat is used > as an example for a person of savage and devious mentality which is > the way cats are still customarily viewed by Tibetans. Can someone > tell me whether this conforms to an/the Indian attitude towards the > cat. Has anyone written on the cat in Sanskrit literature. Thanks. > Leonard Zwilling The Pancatantra tradition knows a story of a deceitful cat. It is acting like a sadhu and so it deceives the other animals. But its only intention is -- of course -- to eat them. The popular edition of the Pancatantra I have at home gives this story in the third book. I am not sure if it is already in the Tantrakhyayika. If I am not totally wrong, you will find, at least, a similar story in the Pali Jatakas; look into the PTSD, sub voce bi.laara. All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Jan 29 11:38:46 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 06:38:46 -0500 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035214.23782.17082090968167147745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to add support to Gopal's statement from the experience of my own family. Since my grand-mother's time, we always had cats in the family, and I, as well as my wife, practically grew up with cats. We have continued to have cats here in Michigan. The first thing my daughter did last year after she got married is to go and get a cat. Growing up in Pune in the Brahmin community, it was more common to have cats as pets than dogs. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, K V N Gopal wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, S Krishna wrote: > > > Mary Storm writes: > > << Hindus rarely seem to have cats as pets, Muslims more > > >often. The Prophet was himself a famous cat lover. > > >A humourous Hindi short story about a wily cat and it's inadvertant > > >"murder," and the complicated penances engendered, might be apropos > > andfun for you to read, the story is called "Penance," and is by > > BhagavatiCharan Varma.>> > > > > I am not sure if it can be generalized about modern Hindus/Indians. In > recent times I have seen many Hindus (even uppercaste conservative > families) having cats in their houses. Sure, the percentage may still be > very small but it is definitely increasing. In our own house after a few > dogs in the last 30 years we have been having about 5 generations of > cats.. including 7 currently. > > gopal > _____________________________________________________________________________ > K.V.N.Gopal |Full many a gem of purest ray serene > M-103, Students Hostel |The dark unfathom'd of ocean bear > IISc, Bangalore |Full many a flower is born to blush unseen > (Tel)80-309-2453(Hostel) |And waste its sweetness on the desert air > email:gopal at aero.iisc.ernet.in | - Thomas Gray > http://144.16.73.100/~gopal/ | > ___________________________________________________________________________ > From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Thu Jan 29 07:51:20 1998 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 07:51:20 +0000 Subject: Religion and philosophy databases Message-ID: <161227035210.23782.2655634022433193257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quelques informations supplementaires sur ATLA : ATLA Religion Database Soon The American Theological Library Association's ATLA Religion Database (formerly known as the Religion Index), is the leading international database indexing citations in the scholarly fields of religion. The ATLA Religion Database covers such topics as Biblical studies, world religions, Church history, and religious perspectives on social issues. The database consists of more than one million records covering the research literature of religion in more than 30 languages. It includes more than 200,000 articles from 650 journals, more than 300,000 essays from 14,000 multi-author works, and more than 300,000 book reviews. Dating from 1949 to the present, the database is an essential resource for researchers and students in theology as well as in social sciences, history and humanities. The full file covers data from 1949 to the present; the 10 year subset includes data from the most recent 10 years. Source: American Theological Library Association (ATLA) Access Options: CD; Hard Disk; Internet Coverage: 1949 - Present; Rolling 10 years Online Equivalent: None Print Equivalent: Religion Index One: Periodicals; Religion Index Two: Multi-Author Works; Index to Book Reviews in Religion Platform: Web; Windows; Macintosh; PC; UNIX Data Type: Bibliographic Number of Records: 1,000,000+ Records Added Annually: 30,000+ Subjects: Religion Ethics History Philosophy Current Events At 08:53 28.01.98 +0000, you wrote: >Bonjour, > >Je pense que LE CD-ROM sur les religions est : > > TITRE: ATLA religion database on CD-ROM [Donn?es lisibles par > machine] >NUMEROTATION: 1993-> > LIEU/DATE: Evanston : American Theological Library Association, cop. > 1993-> > COLLATION: DISQUES COMPACTS CD-ROM ; 12 cm. + 1 manuel (21 p.) > NOTE: Contient: Religion index one: periodicals (RIO), 1949-1964 ; > 1975->. Religion index two: multi-author works (RIT), > 1960->. Index to book reviews in religion (IBRR), 1975->. > Research in ministry (RIM), 1981->. Methodist reviews index, > 1818-1985 > NOTE: Pour syst?me IBM et compatibles > > >Pour la philosophie : > > TITRE UNIF.: Philosopher's index. Palo Alto Calif. [Donn?es lisibles par > machine] > TITRE: Philosopher's index [Donn?es lisibles par machine] / prod. > by the Philosophy Documentation Center, Bowling Green > University >NUMEROTATION: 1940->. > LIEU/DATE: Palo Alto Calif. : Dialog Information Services > COLLATION: 1 CD-ROM ; 12 cm + 1 classeur (User's guide ; 26 cm) + 1 > fasc. (Quick tour ; 23 cm) > COLLECTION: Dialog OnDisc > PERIODICITE: Mises ? jour trimestrielles > NOTE: Pour IBM PC et compatibles > > >et encore (autre editeur) : > > >TITRE UNIF.: Philosopher's index. Cassington GB. [Donn?es lisibles par > machine] > TITRE: KR information ondisc philosopher's index [Donn?es lisibles > par machine] >NUMEROTATION: 1940/91- > LIEU/DATE: Cassington GB : Knight-Ridder Information > COLLATION: 1 CD-ROM ; 12 cm > PERIODICITE: Trimestriel > NOTE: Licence 1-3 users pour r?seau LAN, version Windows > NOTE: Variante de titre : Philosopher's index > > >Tout de bon et a + > >Francois > > >At 16:59 27.01.98 -0500, you wrote: >>Does anyone know any online or CD-ROM bibliographic databases >>specifically on religion or philosophy? >> >>Thanks, >> >> >Francois Obrist >Section de langues et civilisations orientales >Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne >CH-1015 Lausanne >e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch > > Francois Obrist Section de langues et civilisations orientales Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Jan 29 12:52:15 1998 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 07:52:15 -0500 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: <55675.zwilling@facstaff.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227035217.23782.8190075985094156846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Leonard Zwilling wrote: > I'm presently working on a Tibetan text which is purported to be a > translation from a Sanskrit original. In this text the cat is used as an > example for a person of savage and devious mentality which is the way cats > are still customarily viewed by Tibetans. Can someone tell me > whether this conforms to an/the Indian attitude towards the cat. Has anyone > written on the cat in Sanskrit literature. Thanks. Leonard Zwilling > > > how about a great proverb, even if a little post-dated perhaps-- /nau sau cuuhe khaa ke, billii haj ko calii/ "Having eaten nine hundred mice, the cat went to do the Haj." From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Jan 29 16:43:51 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 08:43:51 -0800 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035223.23782.3988265002920464941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Gopal, Sorry, you are right, I should not generalize about the pet allegiances of 950 million people! I should have written with the caveat that I base my opinion on casual observation while living in a small North Indian town. A few years ago, when I was plagued with wood rats gamboling along the rafters and doing back flips across my kitchen floor, I decided I needed a cat. I asked the chowkidar if he could find a cat for the rat problem. Perhaps with his own agenda, he told me I should learn to live with the rats and not threaten them with a dirty cat. A rat should be respected because it is the vehicle of Lord Ganesh. Not with standing this advice, I did eventually find a cat. She is now fat and sassy, I have no rats, and the chowkidar's kids love the cat. This perhaps brings us to the problem of the idea of "pets," is this a modern idea? Did people in antiquity see pets in the same rather romantic way that modern society does? Was there a Puranic Rin Tin Tin ? Meow, Mary From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Jan 29 17:54:36 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 09:54:36 -0800 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035232.23782.13900199172229590587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gopal, There is also the story of Bhagadatta, ally of Dhuryodhana, who mourned the death of his gallant war elephant, Supratiika, when it was killed by Arjuna. Alexander the Great went into mourning upon the death of his horse, Bucephalus. I've actually run across some hero stones dedicated to pets, one to a dog named Loka who killed 75 wild boar. There is also the story of a king of the Goa Kadamba dynasty who immolated himself for the sake of his pet parrot killed by a cat. The king had lured the parrot out of its cage and when it was killed by the cat the king in remorse sacrificed himself. Woof, Mary From gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN Thu Jan 29 04:43:00 1998 From: gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN (K V N Gopal) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 10:13:00 +0530 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: <19980129040613.27216.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035203.23782.18137979734648444834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, S Krishna wrote: > Mary Storm writes: > << Hindus rarely seem to have cats as pets, Muslims more > >often. The Prophet was himself a famous cat lover. > >A humourous Hindi short story about a wily cat and it's inadvertant > >"murder," and the complicated penances engendered, might be apropos > andfun for you to read, the story is called "Penance," and is by > BhagavatiCharan Varma.>> > I am not sure if it can be generalized about modern Hindus/Indians. In recent times I have seen many Hindus (even uppercaste conservative families) having cats in their houses. Sure, the percentage may still be very small but it is definitely increasing. In our own house after a few dogs in the last 30 years we have been having about 5 generations of cats.. including 7 currently. gopal _____________________________________________________________________________ K.V.N.Gopal |Full many a gem of purest ray serene M-103, Students Hostel |The dark unfathom'd of ocean bear IISc, Bangalore |Full many a flower is born to blush unseen (Tel)80-309-2453(Hostel) |And waste its sweetness on the desert air email:gopal at aero.iisc.ernet.in | - Thomas Gray http://144.16.73.100/~gopal/ | ___________________________________________________________________________ From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 29 17:57:37 1998 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 12:57:37 -0500 Subject: Paramparaa In-Reply-To: <01bd2bf0$34dbb000$LocalHost@default> Message-ID: <161227035230.23782.14084547205817631517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Would someone be able to inform something about Ramezvara Jha and >Zrii Gopaala Zaastrii ( Darzana Kezvarii). Both were active in Varanasi >during the 70's, the first coming from Kashmir to teach Kashmirian >Shivaism and smoTa theory ; the other, 20 years older and his disciple, >taught strictly PaaNinian grammar with no concessions to whatever >Kaumudi. He considered the krama fundamental for the esoteric side of the >Ashtadhyayii. I would be glad to know something of their paramparaa. >Jesualdo Correia Some information about gopAla zAstrI may be found in the second part of *kAzI kI pANDitya paramparA* by baladeva upAdhyAya (viSvavidyAlaya prakAzana, vAraNasI, 1983) on pages 155 ka-156 ka. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From Srinivas at CBSINC.COM Thu Jan 29 18:00:01 1998 From: Srinivas at CBSINC.COM (SRINIVASAKRISHNAN L) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 13:00:01 -0500 Subject: Indian onomastics Message-ID: <161227035234.23782.15411165798989963909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in personal names which take after flora and fauna. For example, in modern Karnataka especially in the Dharwar-Belgaum belt, it is not rare to find personal names such as IruLLi (onion), meNasinakAyi (chillies), gubbi (sparrow) etc. It is possible that such names are used to ward off the 'Evil eye'. Is this a phenomenon in Karnataka alone or is there evidence for such names in other parts of India too? I am told that such names are not uncommon in rural Maharashtra. Can anybody confirm? Has anybody come across such names in our literature viz., Sanskrit, Classical Tamil, Marathi, Kannada? I would appreciate any help in this matter. Lakshmi Srinivas. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 29 22:52:05 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 14:52:05 -0800 Subject: Indian onomastics Message-ID: <161227035256.23782.1860715351342512894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> < Subject: Indian onomastics To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <> >Are the names given above first names or family names? If family names, I suppose you can also add "TeGginakAi"( coconut) to the list and badAmI to the list.( I however am not sure about the origin of "badAmI", could be from the name of the nut( almond) or could refer to the fact that the ancestors of this family came from the town of badAmI. As far as names which are flora and fauna inspired, I suppose in >addition to avoiding the evil eye, the names can also be given in view of the beauty/grace etc of the flowers i.e names like gulAbI/gulAb (Rose), champA/champakalakshmI( as in the name of the historian), palAz( Flame of the forest, a common name for males in Bengal), rajnigandhA, mahuA( a common name for women in Bengal, refers to a flower that is used for brewing liquor), kimzuka( a flower that looks beautifulbut lacks smell, refered to in the subhASitam "vidyahInA: na zObhantE nirgandhA iva kimzukA:", a very common name among men in Bengal),bElA( jasmine) etc....there is a long list of flowers which are used as first names for both men and women. As far as surnames go, I know that in Andhra, there are family names like zoNthi( asafoteida?), vEpa( neem), vEpacEdu( as bitter as neem) and paccimiriyam( raw pepper). These names I'm told, are a consequence of the fact that some ancestor/progenitor had a sense of humor/wit/intellect/all which was comparable in terms of sharpness/pungency to the spice in question. In mahArASTra, I know that there are surnames that run along similar lines though I'm not sure of the origin. It is interesting to note that there are family names like parATHE( not sure if this has to do with "parATHAs":-) > > Of course, in the realm of poetry, you have very flowery names being taken as nom-de-plumes:"bonophUl"( Bengali "Forest Flower") and kannaDa "kADumallige"( Forest Jasmine) being two random examples. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Jan 29 20:59:05 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 14:59:05 -0600 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035241.23782.13353604290225982385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. In Kamban's RamayaNam, Indra leaves in the form of a cat once Gautama, Ahalyaa's husband comes back to his home. 2. Few Pallava herostones with earliest Pallava inscriptions are erected for dogs. They have saved the cattle being stolen, helped the owner in a fight, etc., N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Jan 29 21:08:02 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 15:08:02 -0600 Subject: Question on Brhatkatha Message-ID: <161227035242.23782.6938387025433156498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For peruGkatai, please see: 1. Donald A. Nelson, The Brhatkatha: a reconstruction from BrhatkathaslOkasmgraha, PeruGkatai and Vasudevahimdi PhD thesis, 1974, Univ. of Chicago He published a peper in J. of Asian Studies (I think). Does anybody have a reference? Is Dr. D. A. Nelson a faculty in a Asian studies dept? 2. R. Vijayalakshmy, A study of the Perunkatai, an authentic version of the story of Udayana. IITS, 1981 N. Ganesan From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 29 21:33:30 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 15:33:30 -0600 Subject: A transgression? Message-ID: <161227035248.23782.15010461399576403343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr.Roerich also had property in Bangalore and a very valuable painting collection. He was married to Devika Rani, one of the first film actresses of India. I think the Roerich estate was taken over by the Karnataka Govt recently. Subrahmanya At 06:25 PM 1/29/98 -0200, you wrote: >----- >> Then the Classical Indology was revived in the late 50-ies - >>by George N. Roerich, who had returned from India to Moscow. > > >>>>>>>>>> > >George N. Roerich son of Yuri Nicolai Roerich, this one an aristocrat, >painter, mystic and Tibetologist who was an enigma to British colonial >administration in the beginning of this century while he was living in >Tibet. >I think there is museum with his name in the U.S and also a house in the >centre of Moscow with the inscription that there lived George Roerich. > >Jesualdo Correia > > > > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jan 29 21:33:25 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 16:33:25 -0500 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: <01ISYBP8IN5U002VZX@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035250.23782.976896561246100841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> one might have to check the jAtaka to compare cat vs. other pets. In our village (I spent summers at Puri), there were only cats used as pets. In my grandfather's home, the cat was more of a guard against the menace of the rats. The cats were luxuriously fed with milk and cooked food. Dogs are not allowed into the premises of the Temple at Puri. All food must be destroyed and the Temple cleaned if a dog enters. No such fuss on cats! Bijoy Misra On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > 1. In Kamban's RamayaNam, Indra leaves in the form of a cat > once Gautama, Ahalyaa's husband comes back to his home. > > 2. Few Pallava herostones with earliest Pallava inscriptions > are erected for dogs. They have saved the cattle being stolen, > helped the owner in a fight, etc., > > N. Ganesan > From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Thu Jan 29 15:41:53 1998 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 16:41:53 +0100 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035219.23782.7929467689240630722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:37 28/01/98 +0100, Peter Wyzlic wrote: >The Pancatantra tradition knows a story of a deceitful cat. It is >acting like a sadhu and so it deceives the other animals. But its >only intention is -- of course -- to eat them. The popular >edition of the Pancatantra I have at home gives this story in the >third book. I am not sure if it is already in the Tantrakhyayika. >If I am not totally wrong, you will find, at least, a similar >story in the Pali Jatakas; look into the PTSD, sub voce bi.laara. > >All the best >Peter Wyzlic ath'eko sigAlo ito c'ito ca vicaranto taM mUsikA-yUthaM disvA "imA musikA vaJcetvA khAdissAmIti" cintetvA mUsikAnaM Asayassa avidUre suriyAbhimukho vAtaM pivanto ekena pAdena aTThAsi... : In the Pali Jatakas, the story is called biLAra-jAtaka, but the deceitful animal "who stood on one foot, his face turned towards the sun, drinking the wind" is a jackal (sigAla-), not a cat, no cat appears in the text. This discrepancy between the title of the story and its contents could show that the cat had become such a symbol of fickleness that what should have been called "sigAla-jAtaka" was name "biLAla-jAtaka". Does anyone know if there are other cases (in the various paJcatantra recensions for instance) of a (later?) substitution of a cat to a(n original) jackal? NB. To the proverbs already cited, add Nepalese : "dUdh-ko sAchI birAlo" : "[Would you admit] the cat [as a] witness for [stolen] milk" ? "birAlA-lAi jap garna sidrA-ko mAlA" could mean "What a cat needs to mutter his prayers is a rosary a rotten fish" (sidrA is "a particular kind of food consisting of rotten fish"), and could link the (supposed) impurity of the cat to the kind of food it is known to be particularly fond of. (In puzkar zaMzer (ed.) : ukhAn TukkA-ko KoS) From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Jan 29 05:47:25 1998 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 16:47:25 +1100 Subject: Vitthala, Pundalika and Panduranga Message-ID: <161227035206.23782.14388130130306873579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hi Martin, Other information, of a popular nature, on Vitthala is on pp. 188-219 of M.S. Mate, Temples and Legends of Maharashtra (Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Bombay:1962) Richard Barz >I am researching a chant - Jaya Jaya Vitthala. Would anyone know who >>Pundalika and Panduranga are and what is the significance of Vitthala, who I >>believe is the incarnation of Visnu, standing on a brick. Also is there >>significance in the names? The dictionary, i.e. Monier-Williams, does not >>indicate that. >> >>Thank you for your kind response. >> >>Martin > >ViTThala and PANDuraGga are names of the same deity, a form of ViSNu-KRSNa. >PuNDarIka or PuNDalIka is the name of a sage devotee of the same. For the >myth and cult of this deity prevalent in KarnATaka and MahArASTra you may >consult: >Deleury, The Cult of ViThobA, Deccan College, Poona, circa 1970. >P.-S. Filliozat & V. Filliozat, Hampi-Vijayanagar, The Temple of ViTThala, >Sitaram Bhartia Institute of Scientific Research, New Delhi, 1988. > >Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Jan 29 15:57:09 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 16:57:09 +0100 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035221.23782.4809683902930665204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:38 29.01.98 -0500, you wrote: >I would like to add support to Gopal's statement from the experience of my >own family. Since my grand-mother's time, we always had cats in the >family, and I, as well as my wife, practically grew up with cats. We have >continued to have cats here in Michigan. The first thing my daughter did >last year after she got married is to go and get a cat. Growing up in >Pune in the Brahmin community, it was more common to have cats as pets >than dogs. > Madhav Deshpande I would like to ask a question concerning pets. As an Indologist, I "grew up" with the idea that dogs were regarded as impure by Hindus, and that Hindus for this reason did not keep dogs as pets. (Having seen the stray dogs of Benares, I somehow found this attitude rather understandable). But here you tell us that people in Pune (presumably Hindus, most of them!) keep both cats and dogs. I have also seen pure-bred dogs kept as pets in Bangalore, but I am curious: How does this square with the idea that dogs are impure? Is the question of caste involved here (as in : brahmins don't, kshatriyas do)? Or did I get this completely wrong? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Jan 29 06:08:26 1998 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 17:08:26 +1100 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035208.23782.14792053884308146010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's not Indian and not in Sanskrit, but there is a story involving the cat as a byword for greed in the Masnavi of Jalal al-Din Rumi, translated by R.A. Nicholson (London:1924-40). There is a short Urdu version on pp. 42-45 of Urdu:Readings in Literary Urdu Prose by G.C. Narang (University of Wisconsin, Madison:1968). Richard Barz >I'm presently working on a Tibetan text which is purported to be a >translation from a Sanskrit original. In this text the cat is used as an >example for a person of savage and devious mentality which is the way cats >are still customarily viewed by Tibetans. Can someone tell me >whether this conforms to an/the Indian attitude towards the cat. Has anyone >written on the cat in Sanskrit literature. Thanks. Leonard Zwilling From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 30 01:25:51 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 17:25:51 -0800 Subject: Indian onomastics Message-ID: <161227035259.23782.15053351153719545720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas: >>I am interested in personal names which take after flora and fauna. >Forexample, in modern Karnataka especially in the Dharwar-Belgaum belt, itis not rare to find personal names such as IruLLi (onion), >meNasinakAyi(chillies), gubbi (sparrow) etc. It is possible that such >names are used to ward off the 'Evil eye'.>> > Are the names given above first names or family names? If family names, I suppose you can also add "TeGginakAi"( coconut) to the list and badAmI to the list.( I however am not sure about the origin of "badAmI", could be from the name of the nut( almond) or could refer to the fact that the ancestors of this family came from the town of badAmI. > As far as names which are flora and fauna inspired, I suppose in >addition to avoiding the evil eye, the names can also be given in view of the beauty/grace etc of the flowers i.e names like gulAbI/gulAb (Rose), champA/champakalakshmI( as in the name of the historian), palAz( Flame of the forest, a common name for males in Bengal), rajnigandhA, mahuA( a common name for women in Bengal, refers to a flower that is used for brewing liquor), kimzuka( a flower that looks beautifulbut lacks smell, refered to in the subhASitam "vidyahInA: na zObhantEnirgandhA iva kimzukA:", a very common name among men in Bengal),bElA( jasmine) etc....there is a long list of flowers which are used as first names for both men and women. > As far as surnames go, I know that in Andhra, there are family names like zoNthi( asafoteida?), vEpa( neem), vEpacEdu( as bitter as neem) and paccimiriyam( raw pepper). These names I'm told, are a consequence of the fact that some ancestor/progenitor had a sense of humor/wit/intellect/all which was comparable in terms of sharpness/pungency to the spice in question. In mahArASTra, I know that there are surnames that run along similar lines though I'm not sure of the origin. It is interesting to note that there are family names like parATHE( not sure if this has to do with "parATHAs":-) Of course, in the realm of poetry, you have very flowery names "bonophUl"( Bengali "Forest Flower") and kannaDa "kADumallige"( Forest >Jasmine) ( as nom-de-plumes) being two random examples. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jkirk at MICRON.NET Fri Jan 30 01:08:31 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk@micron.net) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 18:08:31 -0700 Subject: The cat (and dog) Message-ID: <161227035258.23782.2389945534571964766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't help but get into this pet thing, by writing that I suspect a major reason why dogs are less welcome round a house or any other area where levels of ritual purity must be maintained is because dogs, if left to their own devices, eat human and animal manure, whereas cats would not touch either. If someone decides to bend the regulations a bit, cats would have a distinct edge over dogs. There's a similar problem with pigs. While pigs have become trendy pets in the USA, I doubt if anyone in India would treat a pig as a pet. Free roaming pigs also eat excrement. J. Kirkpatrick jkirk at micron.net From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Thu Jan 29 20:25:29 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 18:25:29 -0200 Subject: A transgression? Message-ID: <161227035244.23782.4046977898354843341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- > Then the Classical Indology was revived in the late 50-ies - >by George N. Roerich, who had returned from India to Moscow. >>>>>>>>> George N. Roerich son of Yuri Nicolai Roerich, this one an aristocrat, painter, mystic and Tibetologist who was an enigma to British colonial administration in the beginning of this century while he was living in Tibet. I think there is museum with his name in the U.S and also a house in the centre of Moscow with the inscription that there lived George Roerich. Jesualdo Correia From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Thu Jan 29 20:29:43 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 18:29:43 -0200 Subject: Paramparaa Message-ID: <161227035246.23782.4974160320217755612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -> >Some information about gopAla zAstrI may be found in the second part of >*kAzI kI pANDitya paramparA* by baladeva upAdhyAya (viSvavidyAlaya >prakAzana, vAraNasI, 1983) on pages 155 ka-156 ka. > > >Elliot M. Stern >552 South 48th Street >Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >USA Thanks for the precious information. JC From mfrstjsh at FS1.GO.MAN.AC.UK Thu Jan 29 18:44:50 1998 From: mfrstjsh at FS1.GO.MAN.AC.UK (Jacqueline Suthren Hirst) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 18:44:50 +0000 Subject: Religion and philosophy databases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035225.23782.5694124286520742994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Religion Index. Philosopher's Index. Religion Index has peculiarites which you need to get used to! Hope this helps Jackie Hirst From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jan 29 20:12:59 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 20:12:59 +0000 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: <55675.zwilling@facstaff.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227035236.23782.17502031840962804827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patrick Olivelle's new book _The Pa?catantra: the book of India's folk wisdom_ (OUP, 1997, ISBN 0-19-283299-9) has a nice section in the preface where he discusses the traditional Indian/Sanskritic attitudes to various animals (xxii-xxv). Of the cat he says, Cat: (domestic/wild) useful in catching mice.... Cats are cunning, with a calm and ascetic appearance hiding their murderous intentions.... All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Jan 30 04:44:16 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 20:44:16 -0800 Subject: Roerich, was: transgression? Message-ID: <161227035268.23782.10514438663536795000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Nicholas Roerich Museum is in New York: 319 West 107th St. New York, NY 10025-2799 tel. (212) 864-7752 fax: (212) 864-7704 The following book is informative and has many illustrations: Decter, Jacqueline, and the Nicholas Roerich Museum. 1989. Nicholas Roerich: The Life and Art of a Russian Master. Rochester: Park Street Press. Not much help with George Roerich, though. Both Roerichs (father and son) published several books. Among George Roerich's: Roerich, George. Trails to inmost Asia; five years of exploration with the Roerich central Asian expedition, by George N. Roerich; with a preface by Louis Marin. New Haven, Yale university press; London, H. Milford, Oxford university press, 1931. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 06:25 PM 1/29/98 -0200, you wrote: >----- >> Then the Classical Indology was revived in the late 50-ies - >>by George N. Roerich, who had returned from India to Moscow. > > >>>>>>>>>> > >George N. Roerich son of Yuri Nicolai Roerich, this one an aristocrat, >painter, mystic and Tibetologist who was an enigma to British colonial >administration in the beginning of this century while he was living in >Tibet. >I think there is museum with his name in the U.S and also a house in the >centre of Moscow with the inscription that there lived George Roerich. > >Jesualdo Correia > > > > From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Jan 30 04:12:38 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:12:38 -0600 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035266.23782.2634365089146801447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy, Point of fact: Fred Smith did not write what is below attributed to him. You should check your sources more thoroughly. At this point, I am out of the discussion. Fred Smith On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Bijoy Misra wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Rama Balasubramanian wrote: > > > Fred Smith writes: > > > > Fred Smith's mail. It is a fact that politics and religion combine > > together (more a rule than exception!) to form a dirty mess and it is > > also a fact that bribery is rampant in Indian courts. Why object to > > calling a spade a spade? > > > > No offence. I was curious what was the point. > To perceive a judge's opinion in a complex case like > AcAra etc needs more than bribery. Judicial system > could be politicaly driven, but I would disagree > that it's bribe-driven. Any personal knowledge? > > - BM > From silk at WMICH.EDU Fri Jan 30 03:36:07 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:36:07 -0500 Subject: women In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980129233248.0070fda8@pop-server.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227035261.23782.13928703543245574116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps one of the passages John Dunne was thinking of is the commentary (v.rtti) to Jnaanagarbha's Satyadvayavibhang-kaarikaa 3. This states, in a discussion of the two truths (what else did you think that text would talk about?) that the conventional truth is ascertained conventionally according to the experience of ordinary people, including female cowherds and so on. See the edition (tibetan only) and translation of Eckel 156.6-9 and 71. (ji ltar ba lang rdzi mo la sogs pa yan chad kyis mthong ba de ltar kun rdzob tu bden pa rnam par gnas kyi yang dang par ni ma yin te /... Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From silk at WMICH.EDU Fri Jan 30 03:38:43 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:38:43 -0500 Subject: gosava rite Message-ID: <161227035264.23782.5837188224743771698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have recently come across references to the gosava rite. I looked it up in Kane, History of D-sastra, which has apparently only a word or two on it, and I am afraid that here I lack decent resources to search more on my own. Could someone point me to what must at some point have grabbed the attention of some scholar with a taste for the bizzare? (Please give me enough of a reference to order materials by InterLibrary Loan!). many thanks! Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN Thu Jan 29 17:22:09 1998 From: gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN (K V N Gopal) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:52:09 +0530 Subject: The Cat In-Reply-To: <34D0B1C5.15C8@sfo.com> Message-ID: <161227035227.23782.5819945795049625980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Mary Storm wrote: > modern idea? Did people in antiquity see pets in the same rather > romantic way that modern society does? Was there a Puranic Rin Tin Tin ? > Meow, > Mary Even if it is not truly representative of people's attitude to 'pets', it is interesting to note the incident of Yudhisthira and the attachment he had to the 'dog' which accompanies him in the 'swargaarohana parva' of Mahabharata. Another story is of Bharata the son of Dushyanta playing with lion cubs (as pets) as a child. gopal _____________________________________________________________________________ K.V.N.Gopal |Full many a gem of purest ray serene M-103, Students Hostel |The dark unfathom'd of ocean bear IISc, Bangalore |Full many a flower is born to blush unseen (Tel)80-309-2453(Hostel) |And waste its sweetness on the desert air email:gopal at aero.iisc.ernet.in | - Thomas Gray http://144.16.73.100/~gopal/ | ___________________________________________________________________________ From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Thu Jan 29 19:52:28 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:52:28 +0300 Subject: the Cat Message-ID: <161227035239.23782.12796937063199491281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One more post-classical variation of the "Ascetic Cat" theme if represented by a popular subject of Bengali "Bal-talar chhapapat" - printed (and then hand-tinted) pat-s or pictures from Bal-tala, made in North Calcutta in the last century. Such pictures are called "Biraal-tapasvii" - and depict a cat masquerading as a sadhu - but holding a fish in his teeth. Redards, Ya.V. From John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Thu Jan 29 22:32:48 1998 From: John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (John Dunne) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 23:32:48 +0100 Subject: women Message-ID: <161227035254.23782.13110801407576964113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant asked: > Can anyone point me to any references in any genre of Sanskrit texts where > it is explicitly stated that women, as an essentialized gender group (ie > not references to individuals) are in any way less intelligent than men? I have seen a few Buddhist commentators who use phrases such as "this is known to even women and ...." Along with women are usually mentioned either children, cowherds or zuudras.=20 One specific example that I have readily at at hand comes from Praj~naakaragupta [=3DP] (a commentator on Dharmakiirti) and Yamaari, who commented on P. My recollection is that P uses this trope several times, but the instance I specifically have in mind is found in his comments on what is marked as v.33 in the only extant edition of the text (Widener has it, by the way). In this verse, Dharmakiirti notes that the Buddha is considered "omniscient" (sarvaj~na) because he knows the real nature of *heyopodeya* along with the means for obtaining/abandoning them (in the P edition, read *saabhyupaayasya* for *haanyupayasya*). P notes that this is indeed the case, but since he wishes to leave open the possibilitiy of a more expansive notion of what *sarva* means here, he goes on to remark: "but it is not impossible that in the Sugata's sayings there are other [things to be known] which would amaze zuudras and women" [anyat tu striizuudravismaapana.m sugatavacasi naasambhavi]. Yamaari (only available in Tibetan at this point: Derge, tshad ma be, 45a1) takes "women and zuudras" to be an *upalak.sa.na* (Tib., mtshon pa lhur byed pa) for "[those] who lack analytical judgment" (Tib., rnam par dpyod pa dang mi ldan pa). Unfortunately, the Sanskrit equivalent of the Tibetan is uncertain: the most likely could be *na~n* conjoined appropriately with *vicaarin*, but *aprek.savant* is also a possibility. P uses the trope again in the next verse. In both cases, the clear implication is that women and zuudras are rather "simple," to use a euphemism. It is, of course, quite interesting that this type of metaphor is used by Buddhist authors (I am not sure, but I think I've seen it in several places -- I have a dim memory of Candrakiirti, for example, using it somewhere).=20 In any case, I hope this proves helpful. Yours, John Dunne > I know there are various tirades about women's fickleness and propensity > for enjoyment in the Mahabharata, Manu and sannyasa sutras, etc, but I am > particularly looking for statements referring to the intelligence, or > rational faculty, of women as a group. The Sanskrit references (and > context) of any such statements would be helpful. > Thank you, Edwin Bryant _________________________________ John Dunne Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit=E9 de Lausanne ______________________________ John Dunne Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne From John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Thu Jan 29 22:32:55 1998 From: John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (John Dunne) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 23:32:55 +0100 Subject: Sly cats Message-ID: <161227035252.23782.107152998075909811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Zaantideva plays on the image of a cat as a sly animal in his Bodhicaryaavataara, Ch. 5, v.53: bako bi.daalaz cauraz ca ni.hzabdo nibh.rtaz caran / praapnoty abhimata.m kaaryam eva.m nitya.m yatiz caret // "The crane, the cat and the thief, acting silently and secretly, obtain their desired end; such is the way that the ascetic should always act." *ni.hzabda.h* and *nibh.rta.h* are technically appositional modifiers for *baka.h*, etc., but the translation of them as adverbs captures the sense of the verse in natural English (hence also my addition of "and" between these two words). Note the association of the cat with cranes, which are considered to be sly and deceitful. Of course, thieves are not particularly good company either. I have heard a few contemporary Tibetan scholars discuss this verse -- my recollection is that they didn't think much of cats. As for contemporary India, all I know is Benares (more than two years in India, and I hardly went more than 15 km from Benares -- not even to the Taj Mahal; I've seen the great sites of Pandeypur, Lahurabir, yes, even Ashapur, but no Taj Mahal). Most Banarsis don't seem terribly well disposed toward cats. But Varanasi may not be a good example. After all, it is Shiv's city; we know how Shiv feels about dogs -- and we know how dogs feel about cats. Slyly yours, John > I'm presently working on a Tibetan text which is purported to be a > translation from a Sanskrit original. In this text the cat is used as an > example for a person of savage and devious mentality which is the way cats > are still customarily viewed by Tibetans. Can someone tell me > whether this conforms to an/the Indian attitude towards the cat. Has anyone > written on the cat in Sanskrit literature. Thanks. Leonard Zwilling ______________________________ John Dunne Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jan 30 12:12:12 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 07:12:12 -0500 Subject: Sankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035272.23782.7211527561516045639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fred, What irked me was the casual remarks on the judicial system. The latter may not look the greatest, but it's not tainted as alleged. Any time a controversial case could come, the judgement would look unfair to a party. Judiciary in India has so far expressed its independence from various political pressures that run the country. That the judiciary can maintain its independence should be a matter of research if one is into law and political systems. Regards, - Bijoy Misra On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, F. Smith wrote: > Bijoy, > Point of fact: Fred Smith did not write what is below attributed to him. > You should check your sources more thoroughly. At this point, I am out of > the discussion. > Fred Smith > > On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Bijoy Misra wrote: > > > On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Rama Balasubramanian wrote: > > > > > Fred Smith writes: > > > > > > Fred Smith's mail. It is a fact that politics and religion combine > > > together (more a rule than exception!) to form a dirty mess and it is > > > also a fact that bribery is rampant in Indian courts. Why object to > > > calling a spade a spade? > > > > > > > No offence. I was curious what was the point. > > To perceive a judge's opinion in a complex case like > > AcAra etc needs more than bribery. Judicial system > > could be politicaly driven, but I would disagree > > that it's bribe-driven. Any personal knowledge? > > > > - BM > > > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Jan 30 12:39:26 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 07:39:26 -0500 Subject: gosava rite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035274.23782.12164705253963445382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gosava is a type of one-day sacrificial rite modelled on a Soma-sacrifice called Ukthya. Here the host is given an Abhisheka with cow's milk. Details may be found in TaittirIya-BrAhmaNa (2.7.6) and tANDya-brAhmaNa (19.13.10). By this sacrifice, the YajamAna is said to gain his own kingdom, svrAjyaprApti. The priestly fee is 10,000 cows, but there is no sacrifice of the cow. This is prescribed as a remedy for killing a Brahman, brahmahatyA, see: Manu 11.74. Details of this rite are to be found in a number of SrautasUtras, KAtyAyana (22.11.6), Apastamba (22.25.18) etc. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > I have recently come across references to the gosava rite. I looked it up > in Kane, History of D-sastra, which has apparently only a word or two on > it, and I am afraid that here I lack decent resources to search more on my > own. Could someone point me to what must at some point have grabbed the > attention of some scholar with a taste for the bizzare? (Please give me > enough of a reference to order materials by InterLibrary Loan!). many > thanks! > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu > From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Jan 30 16:40:01 1998 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 08:40:01 -0800 Subject: A transgression? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035284.23782.8636264503893321648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those interested, Roerich's collection is housed and on display at the Karnataka Chitrakala Parishath in Bangalore. The Parishath is located in the "Art Complex" on Kumara Krupa Rd. B'lore 560 001 and, incidentally, houses several other interesting collections including one of "Mysore School" paintings and one of leather shadow puppets from Karnataka. The General Secretary, Mr. M. S. Nanjunda Rao (Tel.. 226 1816) was most gracious when I visited the Parishath in January of 1997 and I am sure he would be happy to show the collections to any interested scholars. >On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote > >> Mr.Roerich also had property in Bangalore and a very valuable painting >> collection. He was married to Devika Rani, one of the first film actresses >> of India. >> I think the Roerich estate was taken over by the Karnataka Govt recently. > >Last I knew (about a year ago) there was still a legal wrangle going on >concerning the Bangalore estate. (It abutted the land of the school where >my children went from 1994-95, so I went past it frequently.) I believe >that Roerich's secretary or someone in that role made claims on the >property, and as we have recently discussed, such cases are not usually >resolved rapidly. :-) > >All the best, >Dominik > >-- >Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine >email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England > FAX: 44 171 611 8545 R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Chairman Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Jan 30 15:08:01 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 09:08:01 -0600 Subject: The Cat (and the Dog) Message-ID: <161227035278.23782.9284979376888672146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes. In India, cats are considered sly, but dogs are dirty. That is Saiva Saints, the Tevaram Nayanmars often describe themselves as lowly dogs (naayinEn, naayEn, ...) in their pleadings to Siva. A beautiful book, with an essay by Dr. Wendy Doniger is: Stella Snead, Animals in four worlds: sculpture from India, UChicago p. 1989 N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Jan 30 15:11:26 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 09:11:26 -0600 Subject: The woman Message-ID: <161227035279.23782.620028145566918278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read from P. Lutgendorf's The Life of a text: performing the Ramacaritamanas of Tulsidas, 1991 about a popular Hindi proverb: Women, Shuudras and drums are good only for beating. N. Ganesan From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Fri Jan 30 14:43:25 1998 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 09:43:25 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? Message-ID: <161227035276.23782.5301964185483248879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been lurking here for a couple of weeks, and present my question to this group with some trepidation. Firstly, I'm not an Indologist, just a plant evolutionary biologist with an interest in things Indian. So, if the answers are obvious, please do cut me some slack! A casual interest in the etymology of the word "curry" in English led me to a some insights, and I would greatly appreciate your comments, opinions, etc on this: The OED (and Hobson Jobson) says that the word "curry" in English was derived from the "tamizh word kari, meaning sauce". However, in contemporary, everyday tamizh (with which I am familiar) kari has no such connotation; it means either sauted vegetables (in the brahmin dialect), or meat. In malayALam, and Kannada and tulu, kari has exactly the "sauce" connotation. Finding this very intriquing, I urged my tamizh-scholar cousin to look into the question. This was the response I got from her: ======================================= The historical usage of the word `curry' I. The meaning of the word `curry' during `Sangam' Period (700 BC-100 BC) -- curry - pepper, pepper creeper, (in a general sense - spice) II `curry' Medieval period 1. vegetable curry 2. biting 3. eating 4. oru nAzhikai (60 seconds) III Present usage : vegetable curry, meat And, in response to my question about kuzhambu-- kuzhambu - The word occurs in the Sangam period itself. There are two other words too. 1. kuzhambu - Thick paste (Any thick paste) 2. cEru - Thick paste; e.g., a) candana cEru b) maN cEru c) kAykaRi cEru 3. pAkar - in the sense of `sAmbAr' ====================================== So here are some questions that come to mind (I'm still waiting for her response) -- Did the term "miLagu" for pepper exist in the Sangam period? What is known about the shift in usage from "curry" to "milagu", for black pepper? -- why (how come) did the meaning of "curry" diversify so much during the Medieval period? What dates do you place on the Medieval period? --when did "kuzhambu" replace "curry"? I could go on, but this should do for appetizers... --Geeta From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jan 30 17:02:40 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 12:02:40 -0500 Subject: women's intelligence In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980130122643.007800e8@pop-server.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227035288.23782.11007126075311855293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Sara, and everyone who responded to my query privately or on the list. Perhaps I could make a couple more comments in case anyone is interested in pursuing this thread. I have not yet collected all the references that have come in, some of which might pertain to my specific point of inquiry. Women are often aligned with sudras, vaishyas or children, etc and referred to in a demeaning fashion (ie Bhagavad Gita 9:32). There are also various statements denoting an idea of striipraj~naa, etc and individual women also often refer to themselves as mandhadhii.h when approaching spiritual personalities. But most of these statements seem explainable by the fact that women were generally denied higher learning and the focus or object of their intelligence was traditionally associated with the hearth, home and offspring, etc. With the rise of the ascetic Upanisadic/Buddhistic traditions, these domestic chores became relegated to the samsaric, inferior realm, and therefore, by extension, women's intelligence that had traditionally been tied up with this realm due to most women's social circumstances, was often described as inferior or particular to women, or dull, etc. And there are anecdotes as early as the Upani.sads that reveal that when women are able to step outside of these circumstances they often surprise the so-called intelligent men with their intellectual abilities. My query is whether there is any indication in the Sanskritic tradition (at any historical point) that the actual intelligence itself--the cognitive faculty--of women was considered inferior to men's (as opposed to the *focus* of the intelligence or the social or cultural realm within which it was applied). In other words, regardless of social circumstance, whether women's buddhi, or dhii, or praj~naa was a priori, constitutionally and inherently considered to be inferior or lesser than a man's. Bhagavat Purana 4:4:3 notes that Sati is strai.navimuu.dhadhii. But this could be explained in the manner outlined above (ie her intelligence was focused on [bewildered by] her concern for her family). The same text (7:7:16) has Narada stating that, unlike him, his mother had forgotten the instructions of the sages due to striitvat. This would seem to be an essentialized comment about the memory of women as a gender group (although memory is not quite the same as intelligence). Here, again, it could be argued that as a single mother, Narada's mother had to focus on rearing her child and the traditional chores of womanhood and therefore had to relegate other topics to the background. Is there anything really specific about women's intelligence that cannot be contextualized in this fashion? Again, your references may have already thrown some light on this, but I just wanted to throw this out again before the thread dies. Many thanks, Edwin Bryant On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Sara McClintock wrote: > Regarding Edwin Byant's request: > > One more example from a Buddhist author is found in Candrakiirti's > Madhyamakaavataarabhaa.sya ad 6.26. The relevant sentence reads as follows > (translated from the Tibetan, de la Vallee Poussin, p.105): > > "The Tiirthikas, who wish to attain Suchness, desire to reach the most > excellent (state) without having definitively and correctly understood such > things as production and destruction, which are well known by the > uneducated, up to and including even cowherds and women." > > The interesting thing here is that unlike the Yamaari passage cited by John > Dunne, in which the women and zuudras are said to be persons "who lack > analytical judgment" (Tib., rnam par dpyod pa dang mi ldan pa), > Candrakiirti's texts mentions that women, cowherds and so on are > "uneducated" (Tib., ma byang ba = Skt. *avyutpanna). The use of this > locution implies at least some degree of awareness of the role of education > in developing "intelligence." > > Regarding the passage from J~naanagarbha cited by Jonathan Silk, it is > interesting to notice the combination of the two qualities (being female > and being a cowherd) into one, i.e., "female cowherds" (Tib. lang rdzi mo). > It is difficult to interpret this because one doesn't know what assumptions > the author brings to the two categories, and we don't have the original > Sanskrit. If I had the text at hand, I would check the reading in the > subcommentary attributed to Zaantarak.sita. [Perhaps someone else has > access to it?] > > It seems possible that Indian authors were using two separate tropes: one > in which women and cowherds (or some other group) were seen as two separate > categories and one in which they singled out the women from within some > larger social category. An example of the first trope is found in the > Candrakiirti passage cited above. The translator, at any rate, clearly > understood the Sanskrit to indicate two separate groups (the translation > reads "gnag rdzi dang bud med"); this was probably a compound which the > translator interpreted as a dvandva. > > An example extant in Sanskrit of the second trope (wife of a cowherd or > female cowherd) is found in the Tattvasa.mgrahapa~njikaa by Kamalaziila ad > v.3185 in the Dwarikidas Shastri edition, 3186 in the Krishnamacarya > edition). The context is a discussion of omniscience, but this time we are > reading a purvapak.sa attributed to the Miimaa.msakaas. The sentence reads: > > katham abhaavapramaa.nagraastiik.rtamuurtter asatas tasya > pramaa.nabhuutenaagopaalaa:nganaadipratiitena vedena saamya.m bhavi.syati? > > "How could there by any equality between that non-existent entity that has > been eclipsed by the instrumental means of cognition for non-existence > [abhaavaprama.na] and the authoritative Veda, which is well-known even by > the wives of cowherds and so on!" > > The Tibetan translation, gnag rdzi'i chung ma'i bar, for aagopaalaa:nganaa > supports a tatpuru.sa interpretation of the compound. I have not located > the parallel passage in Kumaarila's writings (assuming that there is one). > > As a woman scholar, such passages have understandably irked me whenever I > have encountered them, but until now I have not realized the ambiguity that > lies at their heart: do the authors intend "women" to represent those who > are ignorant, or do they specifically intend women of a particular class > (in which case the ignorance could be understood as due either to the lack > of education or to the inherent ignorance of the group). In either case, it > seems clear that if a cowherd is considered stupid, how much more so is his > wife or daughter. > ____________________ > > Sara McClintock > Section de langues et civilisations orientales > Universit? de Lausanne > email: Sara.McClintock at orient.unil.ch > From Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Fri Jan 30 11:26:43 1998 From: Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Sara McClintock) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 12:26:43 +0100 Subject: women's intelligence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035270.23782.2761270716763627871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Edwin Byant's request: One more example from a Buddhist author is found in Candrakiirti's Madhyamakaavataarabhaa.sya ad 6.26. The relevant sentence reads as follows (translated from the Tibetan, de la Vallee Poussin, p.105): "The Tiirthikas, who wish to attain Suchness, desire to reach the most excellent (state) without having definitively and correctly understood such things as production and destruction, which are well known by the uneducated, up to and including even cowherds and women." The interesting thing here is that unlike the Yamaari passage cited by John Dunne, in which the women and zuudras are said to be persons "who lack analytical judgment" (Tib., rnam par dpyod pa dang mi ldan pa), Candrakiirti's texts mentions that women, cowherds and so on are "uneducated" (Tib., ma byang ba = Skt. *avyutpanna). The use of this locution implies at least some degree of awareness of the role of education in developing "intelligence." Regarding the passage from J~naanagarbha cited by Jonathan Silk, it is interesting to notice the combination of the two qualities (being female and being a cowherd) into one, i.e., "female cowherds" (Tib. lang rdzi mo). It is difficult to interpret this because one doesn't know what assumptions the author brings to the two categories, and we don't have the original Sanskrit. If I had the text at hand, I would check the reading in the subcommentary attributed to Zaantarak.sita. [Perhaps someone else has access to it?] It seems possible that Indian authors were using two separate tropes: one in which women and cowherds (or some other group) were seen as two separate categories and one in which they singled out the women from within some larger social category. An example of the first trope is found in the Candrakiirti passage cited above. The translator, at any rate, clearly understood the Sanskrit to indicate two separate groups (the translation reads "gnag rdzi dang bud med"); this was probably a compound which the translator interpreted as a dvandva. An example extant in Sanskrit of the second trope (wife of a cowherd or female cowherd) is found in the Tattvasa.mgrahapa~njikaa by Kamalaziila ad v.3185 in the Dwarikidas Shastri edition, 3186 in the Krishnamacarya edition). The context is a discussion of omniscience, but this time we are reading a purvapak.sa attributed to the Miimaa.msakaas. The sentence reads: katham abhaavapramaa.nagraastiik.rtamuurtter asatas tasya pramaa.nabhuutenaagopaalaa:nganaadipratiitena vedena saamya.m bhavi.syati? "How could there by any equality between that non-existent entity that has been eclipsed by the instrumental means of cognition for non-existence [abhaavaprama.na] and the authoritative Veda, which is well-known even by the wives of cowherds and so on!" The Tibetan translation, gnag rdzi'i chung ma'i bar, for aagopaalaa:nganaa supports a tatpuru.sa interpretation of the compound. I have not located the parallel passage in Kumaarila's writings (assuming that there is one). As a woman scholar, such passages have understandably irked me whenever I have encountered them, but until now I have not realized the ambiguity that lies at their heart: do the authors intend "women" to represent those who are ignorant, or do they specifically intend women of a particular class (in which case the ignorance could be understood as due either to the lack of education or to the inherent ignorance of the group). In either case, it seems clear that if a cowherd is considered stupid, how much more so is his wife or daughter. ____________________ Sara McClintock Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne email: Sara.McClintock at orient.unil.ch From hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Jan 30 22:20:37 1998 From: hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Michael Shapiro) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 14:20:37 -0800 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035294.23782.15022596291454088314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One reason for the confusion over the etymology of "curry" is the fact that there are perfectly good sources for the word from both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian. The Dravidian etymology is detailed in Burrow and Emeneau (A Dravidian Etymological Diction, 2nd edition) in entry 1391. The Tamil forms in this entry (in both nominal and verbal guises) have the glosses "vegetables (raw or boiled), meat (raw or boiled), pepper; to season (as curries with ghee or oil and spices). On the Indo-Aryan side, CDIAL 3637 shows NIA derivatives, usually in of the form ka.rii or ka.rhii of Skt. kvathitha- `boiled'. I think this is clearly a case where there has been a fortuitous convergence of two distinct etymological strands. The semantics of the "curry" morph in various Indian languages, as well as in various Anglo-Indian usages, displays trace vestiges of both sources. ============================================================================= Michael C. Shapiro Phone: (206) 543-4996 Dept. Asian Languages & Literature Fax: (206) 685-4268 University of Washington hindimcs at u.washington.edu Mail Box 353521 Seattle, WA 98195-3521 ============================================================================= From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jan 30 16:05:18 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 16:05:18 +0000 Subject: A transgression? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980129213330.0090f498@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227035281.23782.13430498686817097034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > Mr.Roerich also had property in Bangalore and a very valuable painting > collection. He was married to Devika Rani, one of the first film actresses > of India. > I think the Roerich estate was taken over by the Karnataka Govt recently. Last I knew (about a year ago) there was still a legal wrangle going on concerning the Bangalore estate. (It abutted the land of the school where my children went from 1994-95, so I went past it frequently.) I believe that Roerich's secretary or someone in that role made claims on the property, and as we have recently discussed, such cases are not usually resolved rapidly. :-) All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE Fri Jan 30 16:46:42 1998 From: u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 17:46:42 +0100 Subject: e-journal for TamilStudies Message-ID: <161227035286.23782.125785975889536069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> friends, here we are: our new on-line journal for Tamil-Studies, called "KOLAM", is now available on our IITS web-site. Just have a look at: www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/kolam/kolam.html still, a few extensions and additions will be carried out during the following week. waiting for feedbacks... The editors (Ulrike, Andreas, Sascha) From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Jan 30 18:06:46 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 19:06:46 +0100 Subject: women's intelligence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035290.23782.7416010224423695138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant asks: > My query is whether there is any indication in the Sanskritic >tradition (at any historical point) that the actual intelligence >itself--the cognitive faculty--of women was considered inferior to men's >(as opposed to the *focus* of the intelligence or the social or cultural >realm within which it was applied). In other words, regardless of social >circumstance, whether women's buddhi, or dhii, or praj~naa was a priori, >constitutionally and inherently considered to be inferior or lesser than a >man's. There is that nice story in the MahAvastu (ed. Senart, Vol. 3, p. 398 ff.) about a parivrAjikA (female ascetic wanderer) who gets engaged in a debate with a learned brahmin. The debate is going on for a whole week, and none is superior to the other. In the end, she is defeated by her own free will, because she has fallen in love with him (and he with her). Here it is quite clear that the general expectation is that he must win, because men are expected to be more intelligent than women and it would be a shame for him to be defeated by a woman: (p. 392, l. 11 ff.) anAzcaryaM ca bhaveya yad aham etAM parivrAjikAM nigRhNeyaM vadentsuH kim atrAzcaryaM yaM puruSeNa strI nigRhItA ti / atha khalu yaM eSA parivrAjikA mama nigRhNeyA tato haM sarvalokasya kutsito ca paribhUto ca bhaveyaM dvyangulaprajnAye strImAtrAye tvaM nigRhIto tti. (I.B.Horner translates: It would not be strange if I were to defeat this female Wanderer. Men would only say, 'What is there wonderful in a woman being defeated by a man?' But if the female Wanderer were to defeat me, then I should be reviled and despised by the whole crowd, and men would say to me, 'you have been defeated by a mere woman's two-inch wit.') So, even if she was a parivrAjikA and had enjoyed a special education, it was expected that she - as a woman - hat no more than a 'two-inch wit'! Best regards Georg v. Simson From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Jan 30 22:20:18 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 20:20:18 -0200 Subject: Sly cats Message-ID: <161227035296.23782.18142455522261990783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A propos the thread cat it might be helpful to consider an aphorism from G. Gurdjieff who lived in Tibet for quite a time where he was initiated. It may reflect a tibetan view: " A man is not a pig to forget good, nor is he a cat to remember evil (Life is Real only then, when "I Am " pag 56 ) From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Jan 30 22:31:29 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 20:31:29 -0200 Subject: Sly cats Message-ID: <161227035298.23782.2573361841882523196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> - > >A propos the thread cat it might be helpful >to consider an aphorism from G. Gurdjieff >who lived in Tibet for quite a time where >he was initiated. It may reflect a tibetan view: > >" A man is not a pig to forget good, nor is he >a cat to remember evil > >(Life is Real only then, when "I Am " pag 56 ) Jesualdo Correia > From roheko at MSN.COM Fri Jan 30 21:55:26 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 22:55:26 +0100 Subject: women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035292.23782.4793004589026824893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How is this: AAvazyaka-cuurNi for the illustration of the term utpattikii buddhi we read how a young monk defeats a female wandering ascetic, after she had made the proclamation: Whatever someone does, I also can do it (jo jaM karei taM mae kaayavvaM). The young monk, creating a lotus (in the sand) with his urin, won the contest. (teNa [khuDDaga] saagaariyaM daaiuuNa kaaiyaae paumaM lihiyaM. saa na tarai. jiyaa) -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Edwin Bryant An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Montag, 26. Januar 1998 04:01 Betreff: women's intelligence >Can anyone point me to any references in any genre of Sanskrit texts where >it is explicitly stated that women, as an essentialized gender group (ie >not references to individuals) are in any way less intelligent than men? > >I know there are various tirades about women's fickleness and propensity >for enjoyment in the Mahabharata, Manu and sannyasa sutras, etc, but I am >particularly looking for statements referring to the intelligence, or >rational faculty, of women as a group. The Sanskrit references (and >context) of any such statements would be helpful. > >Thank you, Edwin Bryant > From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 31 09:18:33 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 01:18:33 -0800 Subject: The Cat (and the Dog) Message-ID: <161227035302.23782.6204481806675221364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From owner-indology at listserv.liv.ac.uk Fri Jan 30 07:10:33 1998 >Received: from listserv (138.253.144.10) by listserv.liv.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.CBBD4000 at listserv.liv.ac.uk>; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:07:35 +0000 >Received: from LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK by LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK (LISTSERV-TCP/IP > release 1.8c) with spool id 40600 for INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK; > Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:07:34 +0000 >Received: from mailhub1.liv.ac.uk by listserv.liv.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT > v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.CB330160 at listserv.liv.ac.uk>; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 > 15:07:34 +0000 >Received: from uhcl2.cl.uh.edu [129.7.160.1] by mailhub1.liv.ac.uk with esmtp > (Exim 1.73 #2) id 0xyI25-0002dT-00; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:07:05 +0000 >Received: from cl.uh.edu by cl.uh.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #24992) id > <01ISZDQ8F04W0031KR at cl.uh.edu> for indology at liverpool.ac.uk; Fri, 30 > Jan 1998 09:08:01 -0600 (CST) >X-VMS-To: IN%"indology at liverpool.ac.uk" >MIME-version: 1.0 >Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >Message-ID: <01ISZDQ8GVNM0031KR at cl.uh.edu> >Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:08:01 -0600 >Reply-To: Indology >Sender: Indology >From: "N. Ganesan" >Subject: The Cat (and the Dog) >Comments: To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Yes. In India, cats are considered sly, but dogs are dirty. > >That is Saiva Saints, the Tevaram Nayanmars often describe >themselves as lowly dogs (naayinEn, naayEn, ...) in their >pleadings to Siva. > >A beautiful book, with an essay by Dr. Wendy Doniger is: > >Stella Snead, Animals in four worlds: sculpture from >India, UChicago p. 1989 > > >N. Ganesan > As far as I remember, there is a chapter in the Chandogya Upanishad dealing with "priest" dogs. Does it mean that in ancient times dogs were not considered dirty, or is it a satyric chapter, discribing the priests in a derogatory way? Amos nevo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Vaidix at AOL.COM Sat Jan 31 09:19:30 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 04:19:30 -0500 Subject: The Dog Message-ID: <161227035304.23782.13583922447066037302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N GANESAN Wrote.. > That is Saiva Saints, the Tevaram Nayanmars often describe > themselves as lowly dogs (naayinEn, naayEn, ...) in their > pleadings to Siva. Dog has always been a symbol of intinctual behavior. According to my findings (not published yet), viSNu can be defined as "First perception of the Unknown", and rudrA as "Last perception of the Known". viSNu removes ignorance by providing new knowledge not known hitherto, whereas rudrA removes the existing ignorance by melting the instincts which are themselves a symbol of knowledge that was once known but now forgotten. Thanks to Ganesan for the saivite evidence. Bhadraiah Mallampalli http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/bailey/64 (Vaidix) From Vaidix at AOL.COM Sat Jan 31 10:05:51 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 05:05:51 -0500 Subject: The Cat (and the Dog) Message-ID: <161227035306.23782.2946603967466177319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amos nevo asked.. > As far as I remember, there is a chapter in the Chandogya Upanishad > dealing with "priest" dogs. Does it mean that in ancient times dogs were > not considered dirty, or is it a satyric chapter, discribing the priests > in a derogatory way? The upaniSat's mention of uttering the syllable hiG in that context is notable. hiGkArA is a symbol of animalistic behavior according to chAndogyA (sevenfold sAmA). According to my interpretations, hiGkArA is the first stage of thought cycle when instincts drive the thoughts. Dog being an animal living on instincts is known to be worshipper of hiGkArA. The rite mentioned in which the priests move about holding their hands together on the last day of somayAga when they extract somA, is yet to be interpreted. It might point to a meditation. Bhadraiah Mallampali http://www.fornunecity.com/roswell/bailey/64 From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Sat Jan 31 07:53:35 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 10:53:35 +0300 Subject: A transgression? Message-ID: <161227035301.23782.14531985536049110699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Fri Jan 30 20:48:59 MSK 1998 As the two Roerichs are concerned, the father, Nikolas K.Roerich really was a mystic, a painter, and a traveller in Tibet, but it was only his son, George N.Roerich, whom we may call a professional Orientalist, and a Tibetologist in particular (well-known for his English translation of the "Blue Annals" and many other works). Our mention of his name in the INDOLOGY is not a transgression in any way, because he was a Sanskritist as well, and his many works bear directly on Ancient and Mediaeval Indian culture, e.g. the "Biography of Dharmasvamin" - a translation of a biography of a great Tibetan teacher who made pilgrimage to India in the XIII century (Patna, 1959), a multy-volumed Tibetan-Sanskrit-English-Russian Dictionary, and so on. Speaking about the exchange of ideas between East and West, Russia and Western Europe in the field of Indian studies, we should stress the fact that George Roerich, who had graduated University of London, Harvard and Sorbonne, worked for about 30 years in India and then, on his return to Russia, founded in Moscow a center for Classical Indian and Tibetan Studies - after they had been banned in the USSR for more than two previous decades. Roerich himself started teaching Sanskrit and Pali and guiding young Indologists in their work. He managed to revive the "Bibliotheca Buddhica" series (banned in 1937). But in 1960, when the first volume of the renewed "Bibliotheca Buddhica" (philologically exact and stylistically perfect translation of "Dhammapada", done by one of G.Roerich's pupils Vladimir Toporov) was in the press, somebody reported to the authorities, that G.Roerich and his pupils are going to publish a "Buddhist religious text". Immediately the printing process was stopped. Roerich was told that "Dhammapada", as a book containing "religious propaganda", will never be published in the USSR. But then suddenly Roerich's old friend, the Ambassador of Ceylon and a Buddhist scholar Malalasekera came to his help. He invited many high Soviet officials, including some leading "ideological workers", to a festive reception at the Ceylonese embassy. Only at the Embassy most of them learned that the reception had to celebrate "the would-be publication of the great work of Ceylonese literature - 'Dhammapada' - for the first time in Russian translation". Of course, after that the Party bosses could not ban the publication. But they had their revenge on Roerich next day after the book appeared in print. He was invited to Director's office at the Institute of Oriental Studies and crudely reprimanded by the Institute's Communist party officials who shouted at him accusing him in "subversive activities". People say that this incident caused Roerich's premature death from the heart attack several days after. I hope you will forgive me this excursus into the history of Indian studies in the former Soviet Union. Regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sat Jan 31 13:45:56 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 11:45:56 -0200 Subject: Roerich ( was: Transgression ) Message-ID: <161227035310.23782.7698984752738999219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -->As the two Roerichs are concerned, the father, Nikolas K.Roerich really was >a mystic, a painter, and a traveller in Tibet, but it was only his son, >George N.Roerich, whom we may call a professional Orientalist, and >a Tibetologist... > Yes indeed, but I think that his studies of Tibetan language and culture make of him more than just a " traveller in Tibet ", an expression which could lead to the impression that he was more akin to men like Sven Hedin.He was much, much more than that. The Roeriches, mutadis mutandis, remember me in love, commitment and production much of another family of Orientalists - Jean and Pierre Filliozat. Jesualdo Correia From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 31 17:09:23 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 12:09:23 -0500 Subject: women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035312.23782.10695200927030120854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Tamil literary tradition, there are three important works maNimEkalai, kuNTalakEci and nIlakEci. The protogonist in each of them is a woman. Each of them finally becomes a nun. There is an interesting episode from the Buddhist epic maNimEkalai. The protogonist, maNImEKalai is told by the patni goddess kaNNaki (maNimEkalai was the daughter of kaNNaki's husband and the other woman mAtavi.) to seek knowledge about different religious traditions. She says, "You systematically listen to the content of the different religious traditions. After understanding their true content, you embark on the path of the pitakas of Buddha. They (the proponents of religions) will consider you as a young woman and one who is wearing bangles and will not tell you the facts about their religions. Therefore, change your form." Saying this, the goddess taught her a mantra that would enable one to change one's form. Using that mantra, maNimEkalai changed herself into a male ascetic and learnt about the different religious traditions. This is in canto 26 of maNimEkalai. It is obvious that the author disagrees with the existing attitude among the religious elite and may be the society about women's intelligence. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 31 17:17:28 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 12:17:28 -0500 Subject: e-journal for TamilStudies Message-ID: <161227035314.23782.17701564876311173876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good idea. Looks great. I am lokking forward to the English version to become functional. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 31 17:53:17 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 12:53:17 -0500 Subject: Dogs (was Re. The Cat) Message-ID: <161227035316.23782.4578598189151073403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-29 06:42:30 EST, mmdesh at UMICH.EDU writes: << Growing up in Pune in the Brahmin community, it was more common to have cats as pets than dogs. >> In a Classical Tamil text perumpANARRuppaTai, there is a description of a brahmin neighborhood. A calf is tied under a small shed. The house has idols smeared with cow dung. There are no domestic chicken or dogs. The parrot in the house will utter vedic calls/mantras. (The word used is maRaiviLi , maRai- veda, viLi-call). Per. In non-brahmin neighborhoods and especially among the hunters there were dogs. yAn2ai an2aiyavar naNpu orIi nAy an2aiyAr kENmai kezIik koLalvENTum yAn2ai aRintu aRintum pAkan2aiyE kollum eRinta vEl meyyatA vAl kuzaikkum nAy A poem in nAlaTiyAr, a didactic work, says that "one should get as friends people who are like dogs instead of those like elephants. Elephant will kill the keeper whom it knows well. But the dog, even with a spear thrown into its body, will wag its tail." Regards S. Palaniappan From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 31 13:16:36 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 18:16:36 +0500 Subject: The Cat (and the Dog) In-Reply-To: <19980131091835.1641.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035308.23782.17334139589267449784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Jan 31 Amos Nevo writes: >As far as I remember, there is a chapter in the Chandogya Upanishad >dealing with "priest" dogs. Does it mean that in ancient times dogs were >not considered dirty, or is it a satyric chapter, discribing the priests >in a derogatory way? > >Amos nevo > > > At least according to Sankara it is not a satirical passage.He says svAdhyAyEna tOSitA dEvatarSirvA zvarUpaM gRhItvA zvA zvEtaH saMstasmA RSayE tadanugrahArthaM prAdurbabhUva prAduzcakAra. Pleased by the study of the vEda by baka ( alias glAva), a divine being or a RSi took the form of a white dog in order to confer grace on him. regards, sarma.