From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Sun Feb 1 03:35:03 1998 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 19:35:03 -0800 Subject: Women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035320.23782.13644961323109207485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The general inclination in Sanskrit literature such as ;Suka-saptati, Vetaala-pa;nca-vi.m;sati (in their various versions) and the surviving recasts of the B.rhat-kathaa is to depict women as naturally smart/intelligent/resourceful and as having a superior presence of mind. As I recall (but do not have time to verify at present) sometimes this view is even explicitly stated in this body of literature having a close connection with what we would call folk, popular or oral literature. Other authors who would probably have something to say on the intelligence of women in an essentialist way are Damodara-gupta (Ku.ttanii-mata) and K.semendra (many observant small texts to his credit). Note also the M.rcchaka.tika verse striyo hi naama khalv etaa nisargaad eva pa.n.ditaa.h / puru.saa.naa.m tu paa.n.ditya.m ;saastrair evopadi;syate //. Furthermore, Kaalidaasa's phrase in the fifth act of the ;Saakuntala: tad etat pratyutpanna-mati strai.nam iti yad ucyate (I am quoting both from memory, but should not be far off from the actual texts). I can recall, as others contributing to this thread have already recalled, remarks that express surprise or admiration for women doing something that they usually did not do in certain Indian societies of certain periods -- e.g., speak like a man in thegatherings of men (to be pu.mvat pragalbha, to use the phrase in Raghu-va.m;sa canto 6; the Mahaabhaarata should have similar phrases in Viduraa's tongue-lashing of her son Sanjaya, Draupadii's argumentations etc.); be learned in ;saastras. However, at least at present I cannot recall any remark that can mean without doubt or without being contextually circumscribed in some way that women are born with a lower or inferior intelligence. From thompson at JLC.NET Sun Feb 1 01:04:06 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 21:04:06 -0400 Subject: A transgression? Message-ID: <161227035318.23782.6687577962069377122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the post of Yaroslav Vassilkov: [snip] > I hope you will forgive me this excursus into the history of Indian >studies in the former Soviet Union. > Regards, > Yaroslav Vassilkov On the contrary, I hope that the entire list would accompany me in inviting you to say more. I think it is important that the history of Indology in the former Soviet Union be better known to us all. And it is important not only for historical reasons. Not only in Buddhist studies, but also in Vedic studies important advances have been made by scholars who have had to overcome ordeals like those that you have described. The remarkable thing is that even within such a hostile environment so much was accomplished! I myself, as a Vedicist, have benefitted greatly from the exposure that I have had to the work of scholars like Propp, Jakobson, Luria, Bakhtin, Lotman, Ouspenski, Toporov, Elizarenkova, Ivanov, Gamkrelidze, Oguibenine, et al., who move so skillfully among numerous disciplines -- historical and synchronic linguistics, semiotics, poetics, etc. This is a rich intellectual tradition that combines a mastery of traditional philology with great theoretical sophistication and the courage to experiment with new ideas. A combination, it seems to me, that will assure a thriving future for Vedic studies, as for Indology in general. So, please, tell us more. Best wishes, George Thompson From zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sun Feb 1 19:34:07 1998 From: zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Leonard Zwilling) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 98 13:34:07 -0600 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035331.23782.4554262454209578869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just wanted to thank all those who replied to my original query and to those who contributed to the thread which it initiated. LZ From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Sun Feb 1 11:00:19 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 98 14:00:19 +0300 Subject: A transgression? (Indian Studies in the USSR) Message-ID: <161227035323.23782.14200852110710751403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank all participants, particularly George Thopmson, John R. Gardner and Joseph Baltuch for their interest in and high evaluation of the tradition of Indian studies in Russia. I have no objection against my opinion being cited (as J.R.Gardner is going to do), but please don't cite too literally: I hope you will kindly correct in the process my English style and obvious mistakes. On Jan 31 J.Baltuch wrote: Speaking about the exchange of ideas between East and West, Russia and Western Europe in the field of Indian studies . . . (yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU, Sat, 31 Jan 1998) Though it precedes the period about which J.R. Gardner asked on 25 Jan, it may be interesting to those following this thread that "pre- and non-institutional Indology" seems to have flourished in pre-Sovjet Russia. One instance of this which struck me recently is that the notion of ahimsa/non-violence was adapted to Russian literature much earlier than to other European literatures, where it became well-known only in the 20'ies of this century, after Gandhi's actions in British India. But Gandhi "sought his own personal inspiration in Tolstoy and through him rediscovered his path toward the law of love and passivity. Writing Tolstoy from London in 1909, Gandhi signed himself 'Your humble disciple', and received back the advice to read Letter to a Hindu . . . " (cited from Raymond Schwab, The Oriental Renaissance, Eng. tr. New York 1984, p. 451f). Tolstoy's undertanding of Indian thought in general and of ahimsa inparticular, incidentally, is said to have been shaped very much by Buddhism. My triple question to Russian-speaking Indologits on this list: Which word was used by Tolstoy to express the notion of ahimsa? Did it gain much currency beyond the circle of Tolstoy-admirers? Did the term somehow remain in use in a similar meaning in the Sovjet period? Jan E.M. Houben Department of Languages and Cultures of South- and Central Asia ("Kern Institute") P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun Feb 1 14:09:07 1998 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 98 15:09:07 +0100 Subject: Rgvedic RbIsa Message-ID: <161227035327.23782.151846239767101174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the numerous problematic terms in the RV is RbIsa (.rbiisa), which occurs only four times: 1.116.8, 1.117.3, 5.78.4, 10.39.9. The context is always similar: Atri enclosed in it, and there is help by the Asvins. arvISa in JB 1.151 seems to have a similar meaning. After the RV, RbIsa occurs in Zrauta-sUtras, e.g. kZS, and ApZS 5.25.6, where commentators explain it as "fire hiding in coals". This is also sAyaNa's explanation of the Rgvedic occurrences. In PW, however, we find for the Rgvedic occurrence: "Erspalte, Schlund (aus welchem heisse Daempfe aufsteigen)" and thismeaning is echoed in many later works, e.g. MW, and in Kuiper 1955 ("volcanic cleft") where he quite justifiably lists the word as one of non-Indo-European descent (cf. dental s after i). My question concerns not so much the possible etymological connections of RbIsa with words of non-Indo-European Indian languages, but rather the set of possible referents of the term, more specifically whether at all there are (or were in the last few millennia) any "vulcanic clefts" or "chasms in the earth, from which hot vapours arise" in the Rgvedic geographical area (North-West India, Pakistan, Afghanistan). So far the nearest vulcanically active areas I could find on the map are at more than 1000 km distance from the Rgvedic area, viz. south of the Caspian Sea and Indonesia. I did see caves in India, but no "naturally heated" ones (nor did I hear of their existence). Is the "vulcanic cleft" just the imagination of scholarly recluses who were not (/insufficiently) acquainted with the area? Jan E.M. Houben Department of Languages and Cultures of South- and Central Asia ("Kern Institute") P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Sun Feb 1 18:55:27 1998 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 98 19:55:27 +0100 Subject: e-journal for TamilStudies Message-ID: <161227035329.23782.2937688667792193146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:17 31.01.98 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >Good idea. Looks great. I am lokking forward to the English version to become >functional. Thank you, English version will be available on Monday, 2nd February 1998. http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/kolam/kolam.html Yours Tobias *********************************** Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg Duerenerstr. 272, 50935 Koeln, Germany Fon: 0049-221-4302193 e-mail: grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.e.html http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/dig/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ //OM/ SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/ SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/ SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/ MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/ OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Feb 2 03:18:05 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 98 22:18:05 -0500 Subject: -vada / -vadin Message-ID: <161227035333.23782.15290617104870123909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recently "corrected" the draft of a friend's paper, and suggested that the usage Sarvastivada was correct for the sect, and Sarvastivadin for a follower of said sect. The same for Vibhajyavadin. However, in looking through some sources my friend tells me that the actual usage in texts seems to be inconsistent. Is this possible, grammatically speaking? In other words, can we take 'Sarvastivadin' as the name of the sect and 'Sarvastivada' is an adjective form (as the 'Mulasarvastivada-vinaya')? Apparently both Frauwallner and Bareau use Sarvastivadin as the name of the sect. Any comments welcome! Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Feb 2 05:14:07 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 00:14:07 -0500 Subject: gosava rite Message-ID: <161227035334.23782.5989624370579669094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Madhav Deshpande for classical references to the gosava rite. What he has not mentioned, and what I am particularly interested in, is that the rite is said to involve incest. This of course is what the Buddhists (e.g. Vasubandhu and Yasomitra) find useful in attacking the Brahmanical position. Has any scholar studied especially this aspect of the rite? Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Sun Feb 1 16:55:55 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 01:55:55 +0900 Subject: -vada / -vadin Message-ID: <161227035345.23782.1631333661876404963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> jonathan silk wrote: > > I recently "corrected" the draft of a friend's paper, and suggested that > the usage Sarvastivada was correct for the sect, and Sarvastivadin for a > follower of said sect. The same for Vibhajyavadin. However, in looking > through some sources my friend tells me that the actual usage in texts > seems to be inconsistent. Is this possible, grammatically speaking? In > other words, can we take 'Sarvastivadin' as the name of the sect and > 'Sarvastivada' is an adjective form (as the 'Mulasarvastivada-vinaya')? > Apparently both Frauwallner and Bareau use Sarvastivadin as the name of the > sect. A brief glance at Frauwallner's "Studies in Abhidharma Literature and the Origins of Buddhist Philosophical Systems" (SUNY 1995) shows that the INDEX has an entry for "Sarvaastivaada/in school", but I could not find any passage where Frauwallner uses -vaadin for the school, other than in expressions such as "the Abhidharma of the Sarvaastivaadin", but he only uses "Sarvaastivaada school" (not "Sarvaastivaadin school"). So the INDEX-entry is perhaps a shorthand, in the case of "-vaadin", for "school of the Sarvaastivaadin". Maybe the source of the confusion is Frauwallner's (and maybe also Bareau's?) habit of NOT affixing a plural -s to Sanskrit terms, so that the plural of Sarvaastivaadin is still "Sarvaastivaadin" (other people such as myself would write "Sarvaastivaadins"). In some contexts, this may leave the misleading impression that "-vaadin" indeed refers to the school or doctrine. I am not aware of any Sanskrit texts where an occurrence of "-vaadin" unambiguously refers to a school a doctrin, -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 2 13:36:05 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 08:36:05 -0500 Subject: gosava rite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035338.23782.17451317398691483488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About the Gosava rite, there is a fairly informative article in the Bharatiya SamskRtikosha, Vol. 3, p. 192, Editor, Mahadeva Shastri Joshi, Pune 1965, reprint in 1987. It just happens to be in Marathi. According to the information provided here (and I am now translating from Marathi): "After performing the Gosava rite, the host should behave like a cow for a year, or at least for 12 days. He should eat what a cow would eat and he should freely behave the way a cow would behave." The last clause with the words svacchanda AcaraNa is perhaps an oblique reference to what Jonathan is referring to, i.e. possible incestual relations, though I have not yet found any explicit description in a Sanskrit source. Perhaps, the Shrauta experts on the list can elucidate this further. Considering the fact that this rite is prescribed as an expiation rite for BrahmahatyA "killing of a Brahman", it would be difficult to understand incestual practices as part of this rite. Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > Many thanks to Madhav Deshpande for classical references to the gosava > rite. What he has not mentioned, and what I am particularly interested in, > is that the rite is said to involve incest. This of course is what the > Buddhists (e.g. Vasubandhu and Yasomitra) find useful in attacking the > Brahmanical position. Has any scholar studied especially this aspect of the > rite? > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu > > > > From jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Feb 2 13:46:18 1998 From: jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Jeson Woo) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 08:46:18 -0500 Subject: -vada / -vadin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035340.23782.326203617582726554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The meaning of -vAda is basically different from that of -vAdin. For instance, sarvAstivAda refers to the position that everything is real. On the other hand, sarvAstivAdin does people who hold the position. Jeson Woo Hiroshima University From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Mon Feb 2 18:51:01 1998 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 10:51:01 -0800 Subject: Rgvedic RbIsa Message-ID: <161227035349.23782.1286575339180251660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The postings of Jan Houben and Harry Falk remind me of an account I heard from a scientist friend of mine, Professor Emeritus Vinod Modi, who on a visit to the southern part of the former Soviet Union, just outside Baku near the Caspian Sea, photographed a shrine to ;Siva, built by Indian pilgrims/travellers in the 18th or early 19th century with the permission of some Czar. The shrine was built at the place because a natural gas flame was coming out of the ground. On an inscription at the shrine, a part of which I translated for Prof. Modi, as I recall, the word jvaalaa-mukha was used. If .rbiisa does not have to be a cave, it could stand for ground or pits out of which such flames come. If the flame is held to be evidence of divine presence, householders will naturally be discouraged from eating the meat cooked on it. (Isn't there an account somewhere of Zarathustra having been inspired by such a flame to give prominence to fire in Zoroastrian religious life?) As I do not have the time to check the contexts of the occurrences of .rbiisa, I am mentioning this simply as a possibility that occurred to me after reading the messages of Houben and Falk. The word agni-ku.n.da should also be investigated in this context. 'Pan with live coals' does not seem to be the older or only meaning of the term. Another natural phenomenon with a possible connection is that of hot springs. From kwiley at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Feb 2 19:13:14 1998 From: kwiley at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Kristi Wiley) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 11:13:14 -0800 Subject: women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035353.23782.11123542408158427328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a Jaina discussion on the inability of women to participate in debates, which is linked with the inability to develop the requisite occult powers, see Padmanabh S. Jaini, Gender and Salvation (UC Press, 1991, p. 18, #33ff and p. 53 #21 ff. Both Shvetamba (Yapaniya) and Digambara sources state that women lack supernatural powers such as skill in debate, do not have direct mental perception, and are inferior in scriptural understanding (because there are certain texts that are not to be taught to women). According to Shvetambara sources, this does not prevent the attainment of moksha but these are among the reasons cited in Digambara sources for their position that a woman cannot attain moksha. From kwiley at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Feb 2 19:38:10 1998 From: kwiley at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Kristi Wiley) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 11:38:10 -0800 Subject: women's intelligence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035373.23782.12234785908898164488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> . > > My query is whether there is any indication in the Sanskritic >tradition (at any historical point) that the actual intelligence >itself--the cognitive faculty--of women was considered inferior to men's >(as opposed to the *focus* of the intelligence or the social or cultural >realm within which it was applied). In other words, regardless of social >circumstance, whether women's buddhi, or dhii, or praj~naa was a priori, >constitutionally and inherently considered to be inferior or lesser than a >man's. For a Jaina discussion on the inability of women to participate in debates, which is linked with the inability to develop the requisite occult powers, see Padmanabh S. Jaini, Gender and Salvation (UC Press, 1991, p. 18, #33ff and p. 53 #21 ff. Both Shvetamba (Yapaniya) and Digambara sources state that women lack supernatural powers such as skill in debate, do not have direct mental perception, and are inferior in scriptural understanding (because there are certain texts that are not to be taught to women). According to Shvetambara sources, this does not prevent the attainment of moksha but these are among the reasons cited in Digambara sources for their position that a woman cannot attain moksha. > From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Feb 2 16:44:33 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 11:44:33 -0500 Subject: gosava rite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035343.23782.14064552779695829969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ap. XXII.13.1-3 is quoted as follows: tene.s.tvaa samvatsaram pazuvrato bhavati / upaavahaayodakam pibet t.r.naani caacchindyaat / upa maataram iyaad upa svasaaram upa sagotraam / Is not this an explicit reference to incest? Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Mon Feb 2 18:57:01 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 12:57:01 -0600 Subject: gosava rite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035351.23782.9489335612934960322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan I had just located this reference when your email came across. This is the opinion also of A.B. Keith, Rel & Phil of Veda & Ups, p. 338. Also see Jai Br 2.113. Caland translates the relevant part of Ap 22.13.2: ". . . er beschlafe seine Mutter, seine Schwester, und eine andere Frau aus seinem Geschlechte." The term "sleeps with" (beschlafe) is definitely suggested by upa iyaat. We have no way of knowing whether this actually happened or whether this passage was written in for reasons of "sAstraic completeness. The Gosava was certainly never a commonly performed "srauta yaj~na. Best regards Fred On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > Ap. XXII.13.1-3 is quoted as follows: tene.s.tvaa samvatsaram pazuvrato > bhavati / upaavahaayodakam pibet t.r.naani caacchindyaat / upa maataram > iyaad upa svasaaram upa sagotraam / > > Is not this an explicit reference to incest? > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 18:06:13 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 13:06:13 -0500 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects Message-ID: <161227035347.23782.13184534127104548039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in the colloquial forms of the Tamil word "vai" meaning "to scold". In Madurai dialect, when one wants to say he scolded one would say "vaJjAn2". (The other word used is "tiTTin2An2".) I have heard a person with East Tanjore ancestry using the form "vassAn2". The interesting thing is I distinctly hear two "s" es as opposed to "vasAn2" with a single "s". Have anybody else heard this form from in East Tanjore or any other dialect? Regards S. Palaniappan From mallon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Feb 2 21:52:20 1998 From: mallon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Mark Allon) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 13:52:20 -0800 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227035372.23782.15422593491354262320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the email address of Prof. W.B. Bollee? Thanks in advance. Mark Allon Department of Asian languages and literature University of Washington Box 353521 Seattle, WA 98195-3521 USA ph. (206)-543-4356 fax.(206)-685-4268 From u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE Mon Feb 2 13:32:16 1998 From: u.niklas at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 14:32:16 +0100 Subject: "Kolam" (e-journal) Message-ID: <161227035336.23782.1611768016233934732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Kolam", our new e-journal for tamil studies is now complete and should be working. you can reach it via our institute's homepage: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.html The editors (Ulrike, Andreas, Sascha and Arash) From LGoehler at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 19:54:30 1998 From: LGoehler at AOL.COM (Lars Goehler) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 14:54:30 -0500 Subject: gosava rite Message-ID: <161227035358.23782.7307907147942489426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << I had just located this reference when your email came across. This is the opinion also of A.B. Keith, Rel & Phil of Veda & Ups, p. 338. Also see Jai Br 2.113. Caland translates the relevant part of Ap 22.13.2: ". . . er beschlafe seine Mutter, seine Schwester, und eine andere Frau aus seinem Geschlechte." The term "sleeps with" (beschlafe) is definitely suggested by upa iyaat. We have no way of knowing whether this actually happened or whether this passage was written in for reasons of "sAstraic completeness. The Gosava was certainly never a commonly performed "srauta yaj~na. Best regards Fred >> An earlier paralell passage to this ApZs is JB II, 113. But not all Vedic texts dealing with the gosava, prescribe incest ceremonies (e.g. PB). In his article on gosava (Der Gosava, Archiv Oientalni 44/1976, pp. 43-53) Klaus Mylius (p. 52) writes "...Hauptinhalt [of the gosava - L.G.] ist eine Salbung (Weihe) des meist unmittelbar auf dem Erdboden sitzenden Opferveranstalters mit frischer Milch. Inzestriten haben sich auf die Dauer nicht durchzusetzen vermocht." Best regards Lars Goehler From nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Feb 2 21:06:48 1998 From: nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Nikhil Rao) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 16:06:48 -0500 Subject: Sutras. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035364.23782.17638333182178601592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, What are the different grhya sutras followed ?.From what I have know they are Sutra Veda Ashvalayana - Rgveda Apastambha - Krishna Yajur Parashara - ?? Gobhila - Sama Veda (?) Katyayana - ?? Sankhyayana - Rgveda (?) Latyayana - Samaveda (?) Jaiminiya - Samaveda Hiranyakeshaya - Krishna Yajur (?) Baudhayana - Krishna Yajur (?) Gautama. - ?? Manava - ?? Kauthuma - Sama veda. What are the sutras in practice today and what is the relation of the sutras to the vedas,gotras. Also not having gone through the sutras, what exactly is their content ?. Also, what information is available about the authors ?. Please accept my apologies if this list is not appropriate for my questions. Thanks in advance. Nikhil From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Mon Feb 2 15:07:14 1998 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 16:07:14 +0100 Subject: Rgvedic RbIsa In-Reply-To: <01IT2IXRLLTK90NBZ6@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227035341.23782.2076171235946742493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > ......... Is the "vulcanic cleft" just the imagination of scholarly > recluses who were not (/insufficiently) acquainted with the area? Most likely. There are two references, TMK, in the suutra-literature, listing different sorts of meat preparation. One very close to aama, raw meat, is arbisa, i.e. prepared in a rbisa. It could be smoked meat, so that arbisa could be something functioning as a smoking cabinet. If i remember it properly arbisa meat is forbidden for grhasthas. H. Falk From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 2 21:08:07 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 16:08:07 -0500 Subject: The cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035366.23782.14368385637355580116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The version of the story of the mongoose that is found in the HitopadeSa (Lanman, Sanskrit Reader, p. 44) reads: cirakAlapAlitam imam putranirviSezam nakulam ... Besides the animals Thrasher refers to, even trees are often treated in the same way by those who raise them. This is seen in KalidAsa's Shakuntalam, cf. verse: pAtum na prathamam vyavasyati jalam yuzmAsv apItezu yA ... etc. RaghuvamSa of Kalidasa describes a DevadAru tree as having been adopted as a child by Shiva and Parvati: amum puraH paSyasi devadArum putrIkRto'sau vRzabhadhvajena, yo hemakumbhastananiHsRtAnAm skandasya mAtuH payasAm rasaj~naH. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Mary Storm wrote: > > Did people in antiquity see pets in the same rather romantic way that > modern society does? Was there a Puranic Rin Tin Tin ? > > There was the story (Pancatantra?) of the mongoose who saves his master's > baby from a cobra but the master comes home and seeing his mouth bloody > concludes he's killed the baby and kills him, but then discovers his error. > > The ancient pets were I think mongooses, birds of various sorts (parrots, > mynas, geese), and deer. > > Allen Thrasher > From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Feb 2 21:43:29 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 16:43:29 -0500 Subject: The cat Message-ID: <161227035363.23782.17520201506447351330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mary Storm wrote: Did people in antiquity see pets in the same rather romantic way that modern society does? Was there a Puranic Rin Tin Tin ? There was the story (Pancatantra?) of the mongoose who saves his master's baby from a cobra but the master comes home and seeing his mouth bloody concludes he's killed the baby and kills him, but then discovers his error. The ancient pets were I think mongooses, birds of various sorts (parrots, mynas, geese), and deer. Allen Thrasher From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Feb 2 22:04:21 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 17:04:21 -0500 Subject: Question on Brhatkatha Message-ID: <161227035368.23782.3312545636388257651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Dr. D. A. Nelson a faculty in a Asian studies dept? Don Nelson, sometime assistant professor of Sanskrit at Chicago, moved into a career in computers in the 1980s. He was living in Washington DC in 1984 when I came here, but we have lost touch. He doesn't come to S. Asia related things in the DC area. Allen Thrasher From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Feb 2 22:24:40 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 17:24:40 -0500 Subject: Marie-Louise Sjoestedt Message-ID: <161227035370.23782.18436825889649677046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marie-Louise Sjoestedt was a Celticist, wrote Dieux et heros des Celtes, trans. as Gods and heros of the Celts (reprinted 1994), a book on the Kerry dialect of Irish, and one on the nasal affex and verb aspect in Celtic. Allen Thrasher From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 3 01:42:18 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 17:42:18 -0800 Subject: Don Nelson (not) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035387.23782.16278868472436413061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to set the record straight: The South Bibliography at U. Penn is David Nelson, who is not the same person as Don Nelson. RS On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, RAH wrote: > . . . is at the University of Pennsylvania, where he is the South Asian > Bibliographer and handles their website. > > (There may be many Don Nelsons, but I think this is the same one.) > > Bob Hueckstedt > > Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages > Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba > Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada > http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies > phone 1 204 474-6427 fax 1 204 474-7601 > From hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Tue Feb 3 00:21:03 1998 From: hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (RAH) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 18:21:03 -0600 Subject: Don Nelson . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035380.23782.3482820552676009694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> . . . is at the University of Pennsylvania, where he is the South Asian Bibliographer and handles their website. (There may be many Don Nelsons, but I think this is the same one.) Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies phone 1 204 474-6427 fax 1 204 474-7601 From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Feb 3 01:47:34 1998 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 19:47:34 -0600 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035389.23782.18371785794379076495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Better late than never, I hope, you'll want to track down a copy of the following: Heras, Fr. H.. "The Hypocritical Cat." Tamil Culture I (1952): 286-319 wherein the dissemination of this story is traced from the Mahabharata as UR text, all across the Middle East and throughout European literature! [If you'd can't find it, I'll can send you a xerox copy. Hope this helps, Michael Rabe > Just wanted to thank all those who replied to my original query and to >those who contributed to the thread which it initiated. LZ P From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 3 01:47:49 1998 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 20:47:49 -0500 Subject: Sutras. Message-ID: <161227035391.23782.15498277532241945601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> for this information you should first read Oldenberg's introduction to the Grhya sutras in teh SBE series....that would the most immediate thing.....unfortunately grhya texts is a very understudied topic now a days On Monday, February 02, 1998 4:07 PM, Nikhil Rao [SMTP:nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU] wrote: > Hello, > > What are the different grhya sutras followed ?.From what I have know > they are > > Sutra Veda > > Ashvalayana - Rgveda > Apastambha - Krishna Yajur > Parashara - ?? > Gobhila - Sama Veda (?) > Katyayana - ?? > Sankhyayana - Rgveda (?) > Latyayana - Samaveda (?) > Jaiminiya - Samaveda > Hiranyakeshaya - Krishna Yajur (?) > Baudhayana - Krishna Yajur (?) > Gautama. - ?? > Manava - ?? > Kauthuma - Sama veda. > > What are the sutras in practice today and what is the relation of the > sutras to the vedas,gotras. Also not having gone through the sutras, what > exactly is their content ?. Also, what information is available about the > authors ?. > > Please accept my apologies if this list is not appropriate for my > questions. > > Thanks in advance. > > Nikhil ************************************************************************* ye paakazaMsaM viharanta evair ye vaa bhadraM duuSayanti svadhaabhiH ahaye vaa taan pradadaatu soma aa vaa dadhaatu nirRter upasthe (RV 7.104.9) Those who keep apart the man who praises sincerely or those who willingly cause the fortunate man to become corrupt let Soma place them before Ahi or place (them) in the lap of annihilation ************************************************************************ Carlos Lopez clopez at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit Harvard University From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 3 02:00:07 1998 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 21:00:07 -0500 Subject: Sutras. Message-ID: <161227035392.23782.7273013409362241286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My apologies for the previous, short message sent to the list. It was intended for the original sender.... ************************************************************************* ye paakazaMsaM viharanta evair ye vaa bhadraM duuSayanti svadhaabhiH ahaye vaa taan pradadaatu soma aa vaa dadhaatu nirRter upasthe (RV 7.104.9) Those who keep apart the man who praises sincerely or those who willingly cause the fortunate man to become corrupt let Soma place them before Ahi or place (them) in the lap of annihilation ************************************************************************ Carlos Lopez clopez at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit Harvard University From vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Feb 3 02:06:22 1998 From: vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM (Martin Epstein) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 21:06:22 -0500 Subject: Vitthala, Pundalika and Panduranga Message-ID: <161227035394.23782.2924588896338892625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for your kind response. Regards, Martin -----Original Message----- From: Richard Barz To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 12:48 AM Subject: Re: Vitthala, Pundalika and Panduranga >>Hi Martin, >Other information, of a popular nature, on Vitthala is on pp. 188-219 of >M.S. Mate, Temples and Legends of Maharashtra (Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, >Bombay:1962) > >Richard Barz > >>I am researching a chant - Jaya Jaya Vitthala. Would anyone know who >>>Pundalika and Panduranga are and what is the significance of Vitthala, who I >>>believe is the incarnation of Visnu, standing on a brick. Also is there >>>significance in the names? The dictionary, i.e. Monier-Williams, does not >>>indicate that. >>> >>>Thank you for your kind response. >>> >>>Martin >> >>ViTThala and PANDuraGga are names of the same deity, a form of ViSNu-KRSNa. >>PuNDarIka or PuNDalIka is the name of a sage devotee of the same. For the >>myth and cult of this deity prevalent in KarnATaka and MahArASTra you may >>consult: >>Deleury, The Cult of ViThobA, Deccan College, Poona, circa 1970. >>P.-S. Filliozat & V. Filliozat, Hampi-Vijayanagar, The Temple of ViTThala, >>Sitaram Bhartia Institute of Scientific Research, New Delhi, 1988. >> >>Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat > From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Mon Feb 2 20:29:11 1998 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 21:29:11 +0100 Subject: A transgression? (on Tolstoy and ahimsa) In-Reply-To: <01IT2H5XXM2A90NBZ6@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227035410.23782.573932922425268065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 01-feb-98 schreef Jan E.M. Houben: Tolstoy's undertanding of Indian thought in general and of ahimsa >inparticular, incidentally, is said to have been shaped very much by Buddhism. Could you tell me what your sources are? As far as I know Tolstoy got all his 'compassion' from christianity and his idealism from Rousseau. What buddhist texts could Tolstoy possibly know? -erik From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Feb 3 02:49:52 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 21:49:52 -0500 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects Message-ID: <161227035396.23782.3650354579200631788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-02 14:49:38 EST, vasur at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU writes: << (vanjaan is used mostly in harijan and padayaacci dialects. vaisaan is used in other dialects.) >> The person who used the form "vassAn2" (with two "s"es) is a brahmin. Does brahmin dialect around man2n2ArkuTi use this form? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Mon Feb 2 19:10:03 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 22:10:03 +0300 Subject: A transgression? (on Tolstoy and ahimsa) Message-ID: <161227035361.23782.5588290489343646246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Feb. 1 Jan E.M.Houben wrote: <... "pre- and non-institutional Indology" seems to have At 13:52 02.02.98 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone know the email address of Prof. W.B. Bollee? > >Thanks in advance. > >Mark Allon > >Department of Asian languages and literature >University of Washington >Box 353521 >Seattle, WA 98195-3521 >USA >ph. (206)-543-4356 >fax.(206)-685-4268 > At least in 1997 the address of Prof. Boll?e was: [Office] Suedasien-Institut (=South Asia Institute) Universitaet Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 D-69120 Heidelberg Germany, resp. [Residence] Kleegarten 17 D-60123 Heidelberg Germany VTh ----------------------------------------- Freundliche Gruesse / Sincerely, Dr. Volker Thewalt D: +49-6221-477-134 // P: +49-6223-970122 Kapellenweg 8 , D-69257 Wiesenbach ----------------------------------------- From bq8 at MAIL.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Feb 3 00:22:35 1998 From: bq8 at MAIL.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Dr. Volker Thewalt) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 23:22:35 -0100 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227035378.23782.1168588992949707862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:52 02.02.98 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone know the email address of Prof. W.B. Bollee? > >Thanks in advance. > >Mark Allon > >Department of Asian languages and literature >University of Washington >Box 353521 >Seattle, WA 98195-3521 >USA >ph. (206)-543-4356 >fax.(206)-685-4268 > > Sorry, I misread your mail: you were asking for the e-mail-adress, not the snail-mail etc. adresses: obviously (according to http://www.uni-heidelberg.de) Prof. Boll?e does not have any e-mail address. Best regards, VTh ----------------------------------------- Freundliche Gruesse / Sincerely, Dr. Volker Thewalt D: +49-6221-477-134 // P: +49-6223-970122 Kapellenweg 8 , D-69257 Wiesenbach ----------------------------------------- From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 3 01:00:13 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 06:00:13 +0500 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects In-Reply-To: <93d9fa5.34d60b17@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227035382.23782.14249992814255817201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:06 PM 2/2/98 EST, you wrote: >I am interested in the colloquial forms of the Tamil word "vai" meaning "to >scold". In Madurai dialect, when one wants to say he scolded one would say >"vaJjAn2". (The other word used is "tiTTin2An2".) I have heard a person with >East Tanjore ancestry using the form "vassAn2". The interesting thing is I >distinctly hear two "s" es as opposed to "vasAn2" with a single "s". Have >anybody else heard this form from in East Tanjore or any other dialect? > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > The word "tiTTin2An2" appears to be borrowed from telugu. Perhaps the legasy of nAyaka rule over tanjAvur. In telugu the form is "tiTTinAnu" or "tiTTAnu" From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 3 01:19:03 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 06:19:03 +0500 Subject: Rgvedic RbIsa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035385.23782.14677136596736151847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:51 AM 2/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >The postings of Jan Houben and Harry Falk remind me of an account I heard >from a scientist friend of mine, Professor Emeritus Vinod Modi, who on a >visit to the southern part of the former Soviet Union, just outside Baku >near the Caspian Sea, photographed a shrine to ;Siva, built by Indian >pilgrims/travellers in the 18th or early 19th century with the permission >of some Czar. The shrine was built at the place because a natural gas flame >was coming out of the ground. On an inscription at the shrine, a part of >which I translated for Prof. Modi, as I recall, the word jvaalaa-mukha was >used. If .rbiisa does not have to be a cave, it could stand for ground or >pits out of which such flames come. If the flame is held to be evidence of >divine presence, householders will naturally be discouraged from eating the >meat cooked on it. (Isn't there an account somewhere of Zarathustra having >been inspired by such a flame to give prominence to fire in Zoroastrian >religious life?) > >As I do not have the time to check the contexts of the occurrences of >.rbiisa, I am mentioning this simply as a possibility that occurred to me >after reading the messages of Houben and Falk. > >The word agni-ku.n.da should also be investigated in this context. 'Pan >with live coals' does not seem to be the older or only meaning of the term. > > >Another natural phenomenon with a possible connection is that of hot springs. > > In vEda we have the word jvala linga. Perhaps it refers to such natural phenomena.( jvalAya namaH jvalalingAya namaH - mahAnArAyaNOpanishat) regards, sarma. From govind at ISC.TAMU.EDU Tue Feb 3 17:07:32 1998 From: govind at ISC.TAMU.EDU (Govind Rengarajan) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:07:32 -0600 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035402.23782.1281311388917810476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My father and grandfather (and so on) are from man2n2ArkuTi area. I have not heard them use "vassAn2". As pointed out by Smt. Vasu Renganathan, "tiTTu" is more common, though I have heard some of my relatives use "vasAn2" (like in "kuzandhaiyai vesAn2AmA?") occasionally. Regards, govindarajan On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Vasu Renganathan wrote: > > << (vanjaan is used mostly in harijan and padayaacci dialects. vaisaan is used > > in other dialects.) > > >> > > The person who used the form "vassAn2" (with two "s"es) is a brahmin. Does > > brahmin dialect around man2n2ArkuTi use this form? Thanks in advance. > > I think vaisAn2 is not a stigmatized form, but vassAn2 is. I doubt any > brahmin in man2n2ArkuTi area (although I don't belong to this region) > would use this form. Defintetly, mayilADuTurai area brahmins will not say > 'vassAn2'. To me, vassAn2 sounds exactly like Esu (as in Esin2An2) as for > as its usage in dialects is concerned. > > It may be the case that "vassAn2" was uttered in fast speech. I think > Brahmins use 'tiTTu' more frequently than 'vai'. > > Usually ai in initial syllable does not change to e or a as it does in > non-initial syllables. > > (kaiyai > kaiye *keyye; paiyai > paiye *peye). It is possible > that kayye, payye etc., are used in fast speech, like vas(s)An2. > > Regards, > Vasu. > From vasur at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:37:34 1998 From: vasur at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Vasu Renganathan) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:37:34 -0500 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects In-Reply-To: <3c29c4f0.34d685d2@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227035400.23782.17384789198876607908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > << (vanjaan is used mostly in harijan and padayaacci dialects. vaisaan is used > in other dialects.) > >> > The person who used the form "vassAn2" (with two "s"es) is a brahmin. Does > brahmin dialect around man2n2ArkuTi use this form? Thanks in advance. I think vaisAn2 is not a stigmatized form, but vassAn2 is. I doubt any brahmin in man2n2ArkuTi area (although I don't belong to this region) would use this form. Defintetly, mayilADuTurai area brahmins will not say 'vassAn2'. To me, vassAn2 sounds exactly like Esu (as in Esin2An2) as for as its usage in dialects is concerned. It may be the case that "vassAn2" was uttered in fast speech. I think Brahmins use 'tiTTu' more frequently than 'vai'. Usually ai in initial syllable does not change to e or a as it does in non-initial syllables. (kaiyai > kaiye *keyye; paiyai > paiye *peye). It is possible that kayye, payye etc., are used in fast speech, like vas(s)An2. Regards, Vasu. From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 3 21:22:03 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:22:03 -0800 Subject: Indian onomastics In-Reply-To: <41FB157A246BD01198A20020AF32497F9FCEAE@hqex01.cbsinc.com> Message-ID: <161227035408.23782.15401479091917354434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alfons Hilka's Die Altindische Personnamen (Breslau 1910) contains, among other possibly helpful information, a list of names derived from plants and parts of plants (pp.115-7). RS On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, SRINIVASAKRISHNAN L wrote: > I am still looking for some info on whether such names were in use > during an earlier period in Indian history viz., early centuries AD. If > so, has anybody come across literary or epigraphic evidence in Sanskrit > or Tamil. > k From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Feb 3 20:30:21 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 14:30:21 -0600 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035404.23782.8848112984671347272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mary Storm wrote: >There is also the story of a king of the Goa Kadamba dynasty who >immolated himself for the sake of his pet parrot killed by a cat. The The >king had lured the parrot out of its cage and when it was killed by the >cat the king in remorse sacrificed himself. Interesting. Is this told in some book of the Kadamba period? Or, is it a folk story? Any reference? Reminds me of the famous Chola story. A king, by the name of Manuniithi Cholan got his son killed. Because during a chariot ride, the son killed a calf. The mother cow came crying to the Chola palace and rang the bell. That bell usually is rung by a petitioner, then the palace staff listen to their grievances. This story is told in Cilappatikaaram onwards and pracAsti portion in 100s of Chola inscriptions. N. Ganesan From Srinivas at CBSINC.COM Tue Feb 3 20:38:09 1998 From: Srinivas at CBSINC.COM (SRINIVASAKRISHNAN L) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 15:38:09 -0500 Subject: Indian onomastics Message-ID: <161227035406.23782.13444150194788316174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am still looking for some info on whether such names were in use during an earlier period in Indian history viz., early centuries AD. If so, has anybody come across literary or epigraphic evidence in Sanskrit or Tamil. Krishna: Thanks for a detailed answer. > ---------- > From: S Krishna[SMTP:mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 8:25 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Indian onomastics > > Lakshmi Srinivas: > >>I am interested in personal names which take after flora and fauna. > >Forexample, in modern Karnataka especially in the Dharwar-Belgaum > belt, > itis not rare to find personal names such as IruLLi (onion), > >meNasinakAyi(chillies), gubbi (sparrow) etc. It is possible that such > >names are used to ward off the 'Evil eye'.>> > > > Are the names given above first names or family names? If family > names, > I suppose you can also add "TeGginakAi"( coconut) to the list > and badAmI to the list.( I however am not sure about the origin of > "badAmI", could be from the name of the nut( almond) or could refer to > the fact that the ancestors of this family came from the town of > badAmI. > > > As far as names which are flora and fauna inspired, I suppose in > >addition to avoiding the evil eye, the names can also be given in > view > of the beauty/grace etc of the flowers i.e names like gulAbI/gulAb > (Rose), champA/champakalakshmI( as in the name of the historian), > palAz( > Flame of the forest, a common name for males in Bengal), rajnigandhA, > mahuA( a common name for women in Bengal, refers to a flower that is > used for brewing liquor), kimzuka( a flower that looks beautifulbut > lacks smell, refered to in the subhASitam "vidyahInA: na > zObhantEnirgandhA iva kimzukA:", a very common name among men in > Bengal),bElA( jasmine) etc....there is a long list of flowers which > are > used as first names for both men and women. > > > As far as surnames go, I know that in Andhra, there are family > names > like zoNthi( asafoteida?), vEpa( neem), vEpacEdu( as bitter as neem) > and > paccimiriyam( raw pepper). These names I'm told, are a consequence of > the fact that some ancestor/progenitor had a sense of > humor/wit/intellect/all which was comparable in terms of > sharpness/pungency to the spice in question. In mahArASTra, I know > that > there are surnames that run along similar lines though I'm not sure of > the origin. It is interesting to note that there are family names like > parATHE( not sure if this has to do with "parATHAs":-) > > Of course, in the realm of poetry, you have very flowery names > "bonophUl"( Bengali "Forest Flower") and kannaDa "kADumallige"( Forest > >Jasmine) ( as nom-de-plumes) being two random examples. > > Regards, > Krishna > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Feb 3 22:44:08 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 17:44:08 -0500 Subject: Indian onomastics Message-ID: <161227035412.23782.15635703314604443374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-03 15:41:11 EST, Srinivas at CBSINC.COM writes: << I am still looking for some info on whether such names were in use during an earlier period in Indian history viz., early centuries AD. If so, has anybody come across literary or epigraphic evidence in Sanskrit or Tamil. >> Consider some of the classical Tamil names picirAntaiyAr, ezUup pan2Ri nAkan2 kumaran2Ar, akattiyar (Sanskrit agastya is believed by some to be related to akatti plant), nAkam pOttan2Ar, pEyan2Ar, nan2mullaiyAr, marutan2, pUtan2Ar, veLLerukkilaiyAr, mARpittiyAr (pitti could be piccippU ). Regards S. Palaniappan From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 3 16:36:31 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 21:36:31 +0500 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980203060013.006abf8c@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227035398.23782.11914409046881026159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 01:06 PM 2/2/98 EST, I wrote: > >The word "tiTTin2An2" appears to be borrowed from telugu. Perhaps the >legasy of nAyaka rule over tanjAvur. In telugu the form is "tiTTinAnu" >or "tiTTAnu" > > I want to post this correction. "tiTTinanu" is first person singular form in telugu. It is "tiTTinAdu" of telugu that corresponds to tiTTin2An2 which is third person singular. Further my friend Prof Bh. Krishnamurti says that that the word in tamil need not be considered as a borrowing from telugu because it has its origins in PD and is there in many dravidian languages. regards, sarma. From bvi at AFN.ORG Wed Feb 4 02:41:48 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 21:41:48 -0500 Subject: women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035419.23782.6013237152618748071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:38 AM 2/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >. >> >> My query is whether there is any indication in the Sanskritic >>tradition (at any historical point) that the actual intelligence >>itself--the cognitive faculty--of women was considered inferior to men's >>(as opposed to the *focus* of the intelligence or the social or cultural >>realm within which it was applied). In other words, regardless of social >>circumstance, whether women's buddhi, or dhii, or praj~naa was a priori, >>constitutionally and inherently considered to be inferior or lesser than a >>man's. > >For a Jaina discussion on the inability of women to participate in debates, >which is linked with the inability to develop the requisite occult powers, >see Padmanabh S. Jaini, Gender and Salvation (UC Press, 1991, p. 18, #33ff >and p. 53 #21 ff. Both Shvetamba (Yapaniya) and Digambara sources state >that women lack supernatural powers such as skill in debate, do not have >direct mental perception, and are inferior in scriptural understanding >(because there are certain texts that are not to be taught to women). >According to Shvetambara sources, this does not prevent the attainment of >moksha but these are among the reasons cited in Digambara sources for their >position that a woman cannot attain moksha. Regarding women and moksha, according to Vaisnava tradition, as expressed by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-gita verse 9.32, anyone, be they women or men of any class, can attain moksha by taking simply by taking shelter of Krishna. Chris Beetle From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Wed Feb 4 02:31:15 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 00:31:15 -0200 Subject: Paramparaa Message-ID: <161227035415.23782.6393407106599520814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --->>Sorry that my earlier reply was but a reference. I must confess that I only >>assumed then that there would be detailed information about paramparA, >>since other articles that I have read are fairly specific in this regard. I >>was, however, mistaken. The article mentions that gopAla zAstrI was born in >>1892 in jagannAthapura, sivAna maNDala, Bihar, and that he first studied >>Sanskrit at the "maNDala kI pAThazAlA". He then proceeded to Varanasi, >>where he studied vyAkaraNa and darzana with noteworthy pandits of that >>time, and passed the examination for vyAkaraNa zAstrAcArya at BHU in 1915. >> > >>Elliot M. Stern > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >When I studied pANini's grammar with him, during the 70's, he was indeed >in his 80 and although very active with his various - unfortunately badly >edited- >writings around the ashTadhyAI he seemed to be very disappointed the ways >Indian educational system were going. He was quite skeptical... His son was >a >lawyer with total disregard towards traditional culture and would often, >while >passing by us when we were working, ostensively show a cynical smile. >But gopAla zAstrI was also involved with Kashmirian zaivism and eventually >would >introduce me to his Guru, who used to come to Varanasi a couple times >yearly. >This was AcArya rAmezv?ra Jha, who was at my guess 20 to 30 years younger. >Perhaps the lack of material about his paramparA is a proof of his apparent >fears at that time. As far as I remember there were quite a few studying at >his >feet at that time. > >Jesualdo Correia > > From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Wed Feb 4 02:41:03 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 00:41:03 -0200 Subject: Paramparaa Message-ID: <161227035417.23782.1628345580319467953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please if this message is to be repeated disregard the second time. I've some problem with my e-mail and this has happened already a few times. JC From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Wed Feb 4 10:04:45 1998 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 04:04:45 -0600 Subject: Indus/Sarasvati Doab Message-ID: <161227035429.23782.17762489540084396564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Seeing Thiru "DR.S.KALYANARAMAN" on-line, I'm prompted to ask: What did you (all) think of the IndiaToday article last week on _The Indus Riddle_; _India Today International_, January 26, 1998; pp. 44-51? For the first time, I saw a clear mapping of the numerous sites that line the former Sarasvati River basin. Since none of them but Kalibangan is named, I'm wondering if any one of them can be considered an actual city, on the scale approaching INDUS sites of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa? Have steatite seals been found at any of them, and if so, where are they preserved and/or published? Sorry, Dr. Kalyanaaraman, if I'm asking questions already addressed on your web site. If so, please remind us again of its URL. Thanks, Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University & SAIC From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 4 01:23:04 1998 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 06:53:04 +0530 Subject: common language in India Message-ID: <161227035414.23782.1579975688244229766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi, I was asked a question: "How is it a common language did not evolve in India?" I hope I am not raising a hornet's nest of historical linguistic problems. Jules Bloch answered some in his magnificent Formation of the Marathi Language and Burrow in his Sanskrit Language. Are there any works which address the philological question in the context of Pali and Prakrits? Regards. kalyanaraman From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Feb 4 06:51:13 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 07:51:13 +0100 Subject: common language in India Message-ID: <161227035421.23782.12878156096823796434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I was asked a question: "How is it a common language > did not evolve in India?" Why should it have? There's nothing to explain. If a com- mon language had evolved, that you should have had to ex- plain. Languages change and diverge. That is the null option. From jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK Wed Feb 4 07:57:39 1998 From: jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK (John Richards) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 07:57:39 +0000 Subject: A transgression? (on Tolstoy and ahimsa) Message-ID: <161227035423.23782.14972123819817778588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Erik Hoogcarspel To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 10:30 PM Subject: Re: A transgression? (on Tolstoy and ahimsa) >Op 01-feb-98 schreef Jan E.M. Houben: > Tolstoy's undertanding of Indian thought in general and of ahimsa >>inparticular, incidentally, is said to have been shaped very much by >Buddhism. > >Could you tell me what your sources are? As far as I know Tolstoy got all his >'compassion' from christianity and his idealism from Rousseau. What buddhist >texts could Tolstoy possibly know? > >-erik This is largely true, but not so simple. As is well known, Tolstoy had great difficulties accepting the current Christian orthodoxies of his time. (Don't we all?!) He had to rethink it all virtually from scratch for himself, and cast his net quite wide to do so. In his private diary (He also kept a less private one that his wife knew of and used to read) he makes a comment on one occasion, "I am reading a book on Buddhism. Perhaps it is what I have been looking for all the time!" It is also well known that he knew and was deeply influenced by the Slavonic version of "Barlaam and Joasaph", a curious 12th. century work, austensibly about the Christianisation of India, but actually based on the life of the Buddha, through Arabic and Georgian sources. For anyone interested there is a Greek/English copy of this work in the Loeb Classics series - attributed to St. John of Damascus! In spite of its "Christian" clothing, Barlaam and Joasaph are very Buddhist in ethos and attitudes - forest ascetics, continually dwelling on the impermanence of all "earthly" things, etc. It was very influential throughout Europe for many centuries until about the 17th. century, when it was realised to be spurious, and now one never hears it mentioned in Church circles. Yet, for example, it was included in the Golden Legend, and was one of the first works published by Caxton. The incident of the 3 caskets in Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice is borrowed from it - which indicates how widely known it was. Tolstoy was not alone in being influenced by it, though he was probably one of the last to be so. -- John H Richards Stackpole Rectory, Pembrokeshire, UK jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 4 18:29:32 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 10:29:32 -0800 Subject: Dates of tiruvAymozi and tirumantiram Message-ID: <161227035439.23782.1916087388418581220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It would appear that some form of relative chronology exists for all the Vaishnava saints of the Tamil country. This relative chronology is based on literary criticism, tradition, hagiography etc.. An example of the first type would be that pEy, pUtam and poykai only used the venpA metre and not any of the more elaborate ones. Also, their relative tolerance of Siva and Saivite beliefs. An example of tradition-based relative chronology would be that nammAzwar predated kampan. Vaishnava hagiography gives elaborate details of the birth stories of the AzwArs, including the month and asterism in which each was born. I would not accept this uncritically. Once the relative chronology is known to some certainty, absolute dates may be determined by use of an astronomical event refered to in the tiruppAvai. This event would help us date the tiruppAvai to within a century or two. This event is similar to the Gajabahu synchronism, so some of the same caveats may apply here too. In the song "puLLinvAykIntAnai", there is a line which says "veLLi ezunthu viyAzam uRankiRRu" meaning Jupiter set and Venus rose in the morning sky. You would however have to further assume that AntAL is periyAzwar's daughter and choose the right pAntiyan for periyAzwar's time. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Wed Feb 4 10:44:03 1998 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 11:44:03 +0100 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? Message-ID: <161227035430.23782.5501401248767601517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Knowledge about curry came in Europe right from the beginning of 16th century through the Portuguese, most probably from Goa region. The name in Kanna.da is ka.di. There is a kind of cookery book in medieval Kanna.da, entitled Suupa 'saastra, composed by Mangaarasa in the 15th century. It describes ka.di as a preparation consisting of balls of uLu.n.du (Phaseolus radiatus) and rice well ground, mixed in equal quantity with salt, pepper, cumin, curry-leaves and coriander; the ball is fried in oil; and when cold,it is dripped in butter-milk. Vasundhara Filliozat Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Feb 4 20:07:50 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 12:07:50 -0800 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980204174657.2b9f0ebc@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227035441.23782.6924095680580183790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Food for thought: As regards the question, in general, of what "curry" implies in indigenous and English use: it caught my eye that E. Hultzsch, and others following him, translated suupa- in Asokan rock edict 1 as "curry." This word occurs in the context of Asoka's concerns about the number of animals (including "peacock' [moraa] and "deer" [mago]) being killed for food (suupaathaaya), so evidently suupa- refers to meat dishes. Does this term then perhaps correspond to Kannada kaRi, etc? (and was Hultzsch, who I think knew Kannada, consciously thinking of this in his translation?). [The terms are quoted according to the Girnar version of RE I; others are similar.] R. Salomon On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: > The original word is Proto-South Dravidian *kaRi 'seasoned vegetables or > meat'. Tamil, MalayaaLam kaRi, KannaDa kaRi, KoDagu kari, TuLu kajipu (Drav > Etymological Dictionary (Revised), entry:1391. KannaDa kaDi is not a cognate > of these. This item was borrowed into many European languages probably > through Portuguese and English. Its etymology can be found in the Great > OXford English Dictionary. > > From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Feb 4 18:58:18 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 12:58:18 -0600 Subject: Rock carvings found in Goa Message-ID: <161227035437.23782.16734956676225619120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Clipping from Deccan Herald Rock carvings found in Goa DHARWAD, Feb 3 (UNI) The archaeology department has found pre-historic rock carvings in laterite and stone at 'usgalimal` and 'kajur` respectively in south eastern Goa, according to the director of archaeology, archieves and museums of Goa,Dr P P Shirodkar. Speaking at the foundation lecture on 'Cultural relations of Goa with Karnataka` organised by the Karnataka University here on Monday, he said the animal-type carvings depicts various symbols including fertility cult symbol and mother goddesses. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 22:32:11 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 17:32:11 -0500 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects Message-ID: <161227035443.23782.15827549165397558857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all those on who responded to this question on the list and Srini Pichumani who said in a private communication that there is a form with an initial "e" and a double sibilant. Regards S. Palaniappan From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 4 12:41:25 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 17:41:25 +0500 Subject: women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035432.23782.17162814922690122095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the contrary, Kaalidaasa in s'aakuntalam says that females have superior innate intelligence (as'kSitapaTutwam) even in the case of non-humans (amaanuSiiSu), then, he says, 'think of women who are educated' (pratiboodhavatyah). A female cuckoo gets her chicks raised by other birds (crows). He gives this as metaphor. striiNaam as'kSitapaTutwam amaanuSiiSu sandrs'yate kim uta yaah pratiboodhavatyah praag antarikSagamanaat svam apatyajaatam anyaair dvijaai parabhrtaah khalu pooSayanti. DuSyanta was referring to the intelligence of S'akuntala, when he noticed her find some pretext or the other to look at him, as he was leaving (in a way not to be misunderstood by her women friends) Sorry this does not answer your question, but questions it! At 21:41 03/02/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:38 AM 2/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >>. >>> >>> My query is whether there is any indication in the Sanskritic >>>tradition (at any historical point) that the actual intelligence >>>itself--the cognitive faculty--of women was considered inferior to men's >>>(as opposed to the *focus* of the intelligence or the social or cultural >>>realm within which it was applied). In other words, regardless of social >>>circumstance, whether women's buddhi, or dhii, or praj~naa was a priori, >>>constitutionally and inherently considered to be inferior or lesser than a >>>man's. >> >>For a Jaina discussion on the inability of women to participate in debates, >>which is linked with the inability to develop the requisite occult powers, >>see Padmanabh S. Jaini, Gender and Salvation (UC Press, 1991, p. 18, #33ff >>and p. 53 #21 ff. Both Shvetamba (Yapaniya) and Digambara sources state >>that women lack supernatural powers such as skill in debate, do not have >>direct mental perception, and are inferior in scriptural understanding >>(because there are certain texts that are not to be taught to women). >>According to Shvetambara sources, this does not prevent the attainment of >>moksha but these are among the reasons cited in Digambara sources for their >>position that a woman cannot attain moksha. > >Regarding women and moksha, according to Vaisnava tradition, as expressed by >Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-gita verse 9.32, anyone, be they women or men of >any class, can attain moksha by taking simply by taking shelter of Krishna. > >Chris Beetle > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Wed Feb 4 21:42:22 1998 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 17:42:22 -0400 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035445.23782.17175262559071313015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adding to the spice of curry, I would like to mention that in Gujarati families we have a yogurt based liquid preparation called KADHI. Many times this is used to replace dal. It can be plain or some people add vegitables or pakora in it. Who is Girnar? Jay From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 4 12:55:09 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 17:55:09 +0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? Message-ID: <161227035433.23782.5594087392881643801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The original word is Proto-South Dravidian *kaRi 'seasoned vegetables or meat'. Tamil, MalayaaLam kaRi, KannaDa kaRi, KoDagu kari, TuLu kajipu (Drav Etymological Dictionary (Revised), entry:1391. KannaDa kaDi is not a cognate of these. This item was borrowed into many European languages probably through Portuguese and English. Its etymology can be found in the Great OXford English Dictionary. At 11:44 04/02/98 +0100, you wrote: >Knowledge about curry came in Europe right from the beginning of 16th >century through the Portuguese, most probably from Goa region. The name in >Kanna.da is ka.di. There is a kind of cookery book in medieval Kanna.da, >entitled Suupa 'saastra, composed by Mangaarasa in the 15th century. It >describes ka.di as a preparation consisting of balls of uLu.n.du (Phaseolus >radiatus) and rice well ground, mixed in equal quantity with salt, pepper, >cumin, curry-leaves and coriander; the ball is fried in oil; and when >cold,it is dripped in butter-milk. >Vasundhara Filliozat > >Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 23:35:11 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 18:35:11 -0500 Subject: Address request Message-ID: <161227035447.23782.3186041577086004739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody have the e-mail address of David McAlpin? Thanks. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 00:34:49 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 19:34:49 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? Message-ID: <161227035448.23782.9587449191915097881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-30 10:02:07 EST, geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU writes: << -- Did the term "miLagu" for pepper exist in the Sangam period? What is known about the shift in usage from "curry" to "milagu", for black pepper? -- why (how come) did the meaning of "curry" diversify so much during the Medieval period? What dates do you place on the Medieval period? --when did "kuzhambu" replace "curry"? >> miLaku occurs in Classical Tamil. "kaRi" in CT also refers to biting as well as the pepper plant/pepper. The word "miriyal" is also used in CT for pepper. kuzampu must have been of very ancient usage. According to Burrow and Southworth, Vedic karambha is said to be derived from kuzampu. Regards S. Palaniappan From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 5 05:02:00 1998 From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (Dr. S. Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 21:02:00 -0800 Subject: ancient words for 'ivory' Message-ID: <161227035450.23782.12162648133628387805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi, I request help on locating the corpus of ancient words used for 'ivory'and ivory products in Sumerian and in ancient epigraphical inscriptions in India. Regards. == Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, 19 Temple Avenue, Srinagar Colony Saidapet, Chennai 600015, India; Tel. +91 44 2354640; Fax. 4996380; kalyan97 at yahoo.com http://www.probys.com/sarasvati http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875 (Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 4 17:11:37 1998 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 22:41:37 +0530 Subject: Indus/Sarasvati Doab Message-ID: <161227035435.23782.13825167110244232631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This refers to Michael Rabe's inquiry... A beautiful map of the sites of the civilization (Mature Harappan and--in the NW-late Kot Dijian cultures)is presented in Asko Parpola, "Deciphering th Indus Script", Cambridge UP, 1994, p. 7. [This work is also a veritable encyclopaedia on the script problem.] I have attempted to superimpose the ancient courses of the Sarasvati River on these sites, which run about 200 kms. south of and parallel to the present-day course of the Sindhu river. I assume that the India Today Article did not identify all the 1200 sites on the banks of the Sarasvati.[see list in the URL given below.] Rakhigarhi and Ganweriwala are sites as large in extent as Mohenjodaro. Inscriptions were found in many sites in Gujarat, Kutch, Sindh, Bahawalpur province,Sreeganganagar district, Haryana and Punjab. Thanks to the superb and dedicated work of Parpola and Mahadevan, almost all the inscriptions have been documented in corpuses. In particular, the photographic corpuses of collections in Pakistan and India released so far in two volumes are source material on the 'epigraphy' of the civilization. (published with assistance from UNESCO, in 1991 and 1987 respectively from Helsinki, Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia. Best regards, S. Kalyanaraman, 19 Temple Avenue, Srinagar Colony Saidapet, Chennai 600015, India; Tel. +91 44 2354640; Fax. 4996380; kalyan97 at yahoo.com http://www.probys.com/sarasvati http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875 (Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja) From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Thu Feb 5 11:17:41 1998 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 05:17:41 -0600 Subject: Indus/Sarasvati Doab (& SYMPOSUIM announcement) Message-ID: <161227035452.23782.11957406808445116217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Dr. Kalyanaraman! Very timely information, in that the Asia Society, New York, is about to host an exhibition, entitled: _Great Cities, Small Treasures: The Ancient World of the Indus Valley,_ Feb. 11 - May 3, 1998. [Exhibited material, courtesy the Govt of Pakistan/Golden Jubilee Celebration Cell, et al.] An accompanying symposium, organized by Rita Wright, Dept of Anthroloplogy, NYU, and at the Asia Society, is scheduled for Friday March 6, (2 - 6 p.m); and all day Saturday, the 7th. The number to call for reservations (otherwise free) is 212-517-ASIA; presumably the entire program is posted on the ASIA society Web site: http://www.asiasociety.org >This refers to Michael Rabe's inquiry... > >A beautiful map of the sites of the civilization (Mature Harappan >and--in the NW-late Kot Dijian cultures)is presented in Asko Parpola, >"Deciphering th Indus Script", Cambridge UP, 1994, p. 7. [This work is >also a veritable encyclopaedia on the script problem.] >I have attempted to superimpose the ancient courses of the >Sarasvati River on these sites, which run about 200 kms. south of and >parallel to the present-day course of the Sindhu river. > >I assume that the India Today Article did not identify >all the 1200 sites on the banks of the Sarasvati.[see list in the URL >given below.] Rakhigarhi and Ganweriwala are sites as large in extent as >Mohenjodaro. Inscriptions were found in many sites in Gujarat, Kutch, >Sindh, Bahawalpur province,Sreeganganagar district, Haryana and Punjab. > >Thanks to the superb and dedicated work of Parpola and Mahadevan, >almost all the inscriptions have been documented in corpuses. In >particular, the photographic corpuses of collections in Pakistan and India >released so far in two volumes are source material on the 'epigraphy' of >the civilization. >(published with assistance from UNESCO, in 1991 and 1987 respectively >from Helsinki, Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia. > >Best regards, S. Kalyanaraman, 19 Temple Avenue, Srinagar Colony Saidapet, >Chennai 600015, India; Tel. +91 44 2354640; Fax. 4996380; >kalyan97 at yahoo.com >http://www.probys.com/sarasvati >http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha >http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875 (Cosmic Dancer >Shiva-Nataraja) From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Thu Feb 5 15:09:43 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 10:09:43 -0500 Subject: REQ: locate perfect copy of book Message-ID: <161227035454.23782.12349722092151281503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am currently reading ``The nominal sentence in Sanskrit and Middle Indo-Aryan'' by A.~Breunis, published by E. J. Brill [ISBN: 90-04-09123-8]. The copy at the Ohio State University Libraries has blank pages where the following pages should appear: 153, 156, 157, 160, 161, 164, 165, 168. If your library has a copy without this defect, I will appreciate knowing about it so that I can try to get copies of these pages. Or, better yet, if anyone knows an e-mail addr of the author. Thanks in advance Regards Nath From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 5 18:13:15 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 10:13:15 -0800 Subject: Indian Onomastics Message-ID: <161227035473.23782.8401425410315699729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List The library to which I have access i.e., the Grad Lib at U of Michigan does not have Hilka's Altindische Personnamen. Can somebody let me know if it's available at your library, so I could try an inter-lib loan. Thanks in advance. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 5 15:18:02 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 10:18:02 -0500 Subject: REQ: locate perfect copy of book -Reply Message-ID: <161227035457.23782.8827741395293146291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have paged LC's copy of this book and will send you the missing pages, assuming they aren't missing in our copy. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Thu Feb 5 16:58:29 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 10:58:29 -0600 Subject: REQ: locate perfect copy of book In-Reply-To: <199802051509.KAA04265@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227035464.23782.15458275507851123513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think UIOWA's copy had the same problem. I'll double check. If any listmember has a good copy, can you let both of us know? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > I am currently reading ``The nominal sentence in Sanskrit and Middle > Indo-Aryan'' by A.~Breunis, published by E. J. Brill [ISBN: 90-04-09123-8]. > The copy at the Ohio State University Libraries has blank pages where the > following pages should appear: 153, 156, 157, 160, 161, 164, 165, 168. If > your library has a copy without this defect, I will appreciate knowing > about it so that I can try to get copies of these pages. Or, better yet, > if anyone knows an e-mail addr of the author. > > Thanks in advance > > Regards > Nath > From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 5 19:31:53 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 11:31:53 -0800 Subject: Indian Onomastics In-Reply-To: <19980205181315.6634.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227035476.23782.8195580207981507492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hilka's Altindische Personennamen may be catalogued under the series title "Indische Forschungen" (vol. 3), ed. Alfred Hillebrandt; and/or under "Beitra:ge zur Kenntnis der indischen Namengebung." RS On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > Dear Members of the List > > The library to which I have access i.e., the Grad Lib at U of Michigan > does not have Hilka's Altindische Personnamen. > > Can somebody let me know if it's available at your library, so I could > try an inter-lib loan. > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > == > Lakshmi Srinivas > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Thu Feb 5 16:51:12 1998 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 11:51:12 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035459.23782.9803498554967553759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two questions in response to Richard Salomon's question-- 1. Would the answer to this depend upon when E. Hultzsch did the translation? If after "curry" had become established in the European context, then I imagine he mightt have equated the two (curry=kaRi) and come up with the closest approximation to what "suupa" must mean. I find it interesting that the term "suupa", rather than kaRi, is used in the edict; this raises the second set of questions-- 2. Where was this Asokan edict located? Given that kaRi is of Dravidian ancestry and therefore its usage prevalent in southern India, then my guess (sticking my neck out) would be that the edict was located in the northern region-- is this correct? If not, and the location is southern, then it seems to me that its date actually time the spread of the usage of kaRi in that part of southern India. Is this correct? Thank you, this is actually getting a little closer to answering the question that was in my mind when I first posted here. --Geeta On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Richard Salomon wrote: > As regards the question, in general, of what "curry" implies in indigenous > and English use: it caught my eye that E. Hultzsch, and others following > him, translated suupa- in Asokan rock edict 1 as "curry." This word > occurs in the context of Asoka's concerns about the number of animals > (including "peacock' [moraa] and "deer" [mago]) being killed for food > (suupaathaaya), so evidently suupa- refers to meat dishes. Does this > term then perhaps correspond to Kannada kaRi, etc? (and was Hultzsch, > who I think knew Kannada, consciously thinking of > this in his translation?). From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Thu Feb 5 16:53:34 1998 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 11:53:34 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035462.23782.12510211598080185677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat wrote: > Knowledge about curry came in Europe right from the beginning of 16th > century through the Portuguese, most probably from Goa region. This was exactly my problem with the OED's derivation of curry from the Tamil word kaRi, since in almost the same breath (or was it Hobson Jobson?) they talk of it being first used as "caril" by the Portugese. Given that the Portugese landed on the west, and not east, it was a little difficult to reconcile these two etymologies. So it seemed like it had to be either Dravidian (koDagu?) kaRi--> Portugese caril --> English curry or Tamil kaRi --> English curry ; AND west coast kaRi --> Portugese caril. The name in > Kanna.da is ka.di. There is a kind of cookery book in medieval Kanna.da, > entitled Suupa 'saastra, composed by Mangaarasa in the 15th century. It > describes ka.di as a preparation consisting of balls of uLu.n.du (Phaseolus > radiatus) and rice well ground, mixed in equal quantity with salt, pepper, > cumin, curry-leaves and coriander; the ball is fried in oil; and when > cold,it is dripped in butter-milk. This is fascinating, but I have a problem with suggesting this as the origin of the western concept of "curry", since this ka.di is a very specific dish, not the coverall concept of a spicy-stew-that-Indians-serve-with-rice. --Geeta From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Thu Feb 5 17:07:22 1998 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 12:07:22 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980204174657.2b9f0ebc@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227035466.23782.10739452615648042353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: > The original word is Proto-South Dravidian *kaRi 'seasoned vegetables or > meat'. Tamil, MalayaaLam kaRi, KannaDa kaRi, KoDagu kari, TuLu kajipu (Drav > Etymological Dictionary (Revised), entry:1391. Does this then imply that the early Tamil usage of kaRi for black pepper (Piper) was a later modification, or does it mean that the sense of black pepper was the prior, and that this sense (described above) was disseminated later? (knowing next ot nothing about the historical connections between these languages, I have no sense of which is a more reasonable hypothesis). > KannaDa kaDi is not a cognate of these. This seems to be consistent with what kaDi (ka.di?) represents in the northern and western regions of India today--the yogurt/buttermilk based dish described in one of the posters. > This item was borrowed into many European languages probably > through Portuguese and English. Its etymology can be found in the Great > OXford English Dictionary. By "this item" I suppose you mean kaRi, rather than kaDi ? (kaDi? ka.di?? Is there somewhere I could look up this notation?)? As I say in another response, this etymology raises several questions-- It seems to me that we can say that "curry" in English came from "caril" in Portugese derived from the Dravidian kaRi; but not that "curry" in English came from "caril" in Portugese derived from the Tamil word "kaRi", because of the geographical glitch in the second scenario. The first scenario remains too vague to answer the question about the role of Tamil in the etymology of "curry" in English. --Geeta From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Thu Feb 5 17:16:24 1998 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 12:16:24 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035469.23782.4525606510671620176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > miLaku occurs in Classical Tamil. "kaRi" in CT also refers to biting as well > as the pepper plant/pepper. The word "miriyal" is also used in CT for pepper. > kuzampu must have been of very ancient usage. According to Burrow and > Southworth, Vedic karambha is said to be derived from kuzampu. Does the difference in consistency/coninuity of usage imply anything about which word was the "original" one for pepper? I find it fascinating that miLaku should still be in use as the word for pepper, while connotations for kaRi should have been so variable over time (not to speak of its mutation into curry powder, etc in modern times and in other languages). --Geeta From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Thu Feb 5 17:42:44 1998 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 12:42:44 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035471.23782.169281796538419472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In a message dated 98-01-30 10:02:07 EST, geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU writes: > > --when did "kuzhambu" replace "curry"? >> > > kuzampu must have been of very ancient usage. According to Burrow and > Southworth, Vedic karambha is said to be derived from kuzampu. > What I really meant to ask here was this-- it appears that kaRi in Tamil was used, in days past, to refer to what is generally termed kuzampu in modern times (a thickish-fluidy dish containing either vegetables or meat or both, eaten mixed with rice). Clearly there was a switch in the usage at some point in time. My question is, when was that point in time? It seems to me that the etymology of the word "curry" in English as being derived from the Tamil word "kaRi meaning sauce" would be valid only if we are sure that the transition from kaRi to kuzampu did not happen until after the encounter with the British. And, what I find even more fascinating is, why did the transition occur in Tamil, whenever it did, while it not happen in malayALam, for instance? Did it get "fixed" in these other languages because of reinforcement from the English/British presence, just as the word "curry" spread to other parts of India where it had had not history prior to the British presence--e.g. in Bengal, where it is used as a generalized term to refer to dishes from other parts of India? But then, this does not explain what happened in Tamil. What are the historical forces that act on this word, kaRi, in Tamil?? (I don't think kaDHi in Hindi, Punjabi etc is either the same entity--it is a very specific type of dish, or the same word--soemeone pointed this out in another response.) --Geeta From jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Thu Feb 5 19:34:42 1998 From: jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (SStephen) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 14:34:42 -0500 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035509.23782.13309925341798866208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: S Krishna To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: February 5, 1998 9:55 PM Subject: Re: Tamil words in English >>> > koel < kuyil > > This is very interesting..i.e. koel (which is a bird) from kuyil... >However, the word koel is used only in Indian English and not in other >parts of the world, where it is invariably the nightingale... World book dictionary gives the meaning of koel as "any one of various cuckoos of India, New Guinea and Australia". They also seem to think it is derived from Hindi or Sanskrit. Sujatha From hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 5 23:26:25 1998 From: hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Michael Shapiro) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 15:26:25 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <01IT876HGHPE0044MT@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035481.23782.11374084796454806294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a small volume published by Oxford University Press (Delhi, 1984) entitled "Common English Words in English." It does not, however, provide detailed etymological information. ============================================================================= Michael C. Shapiro Phone: (206) 543-4996 Dept. Asian Languages & Literature Fax: (206) 685-4268 University of Washington hindimcs at u.washington.edu Mail Box 353521 Seattle, WA 98195-3521 ============================================================================= On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > Some Tamil words that have entered English. > > English Tamil > *************** > corundum < kuruntam > betel < veRRilai (spoken tamil word is vettilai) > areca < aTaikkaay > beryl < veLiRu > patchouli < paccilai > cot < kaTTu > orange < nAraGkaay > copra < koppaRai > coir < kayaRu > jackfruit < cakkaip pazam > teak < tEkku > mulligatawny < miLakuttaNNiir > catamaran < kaTTumaram > cash < kAcu > ginger < iJci > Pariah < paRaiyan > koel < kuyil > mango < mAGkaay > anicut < aNaikkaTTu > curry < kaRi > coolie < kUli > kangany < kaNkaaNi > cheroot < curuTTu > > Got these by searching Microsoft's Bookshelf.I am not a linguist. > Any additions or corrections? Interested > to know words of Dravidian words in English. Is there some good > dictionary of English available where we can search a keyword > like Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Tulu, Kannada, Dravidian in that database > > Are rice and tamil 'arici' related? > > Vaguely remember a book by Subbarao, Indian words in English. > Any bibliographical info is welcome. > > N. Ganesan > From hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 5 23:28:51 1998 From: hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Michael Shapiro) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 15:28:51 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035483.23782.14148989475150267403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my last message I accidently failed to give the name of the editor of the dictionary. It's R. E. Hawkins. ============================================================================= Michael C. Shapiro Phone: (206) 543-4996 Dept. Asian Languages & Literature Fax: (206) 685-4268 University of Washington hindimcs at u.washington.edu Mail Box 353521 Seattle, WA 98195-3521 ============================================================================= On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Michael Shapiro wrote: > There is a small volume published by Oxford University Press (Delhi, 1984) > entitled "Common English Words in English." It does not, however, provide > detailed etymological information. > > ============================================================================== > Michael C. Shapiro Phone: (206) 543-4996 > Dept. Asian Languages & Literature Fax: (206) 685-4268 > University of Washington hindimcs at u.washington.edu > Mail Box 353521 > Seattle, WA 98195-3521 > ============================================================================== > > On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > Some Tamil words that have entered English. > > > > English Tamil > > *************** > > corundum < kuruntam > > betel < veRRilai (spoken tamil word is vettilai) > > areca < aTaikkaay > > beryl < veLiRu > > patchouli < paccilai > > cot < kaTTu > > orange < nAraGkaay > > copra < koppaRai > > coir < kayaRu > > jackfruit < cakkaip pazam > > teak < tEkku > > mulligatawny < miLakuttaNNiir > > catamaran < kaTTumaram > > cash < kAcu > > ginger < iJci > > Pariah < paRaiyan > > koel < kuyil > > mango < mAGkaay > > anicut < aNaikkaTTu > > curry < kaRi > > coolie < kUli > > kangany < kaNkaaNi > > cheroot < curuTTu > > > > Got these by searching Microsoft's Bookshelf.I am not a linguist.. > > Any additions or corrections? Interested > > to know words of Dravidian words in English. Is there some good > > dictionary of English available where we can search a keyword > > like Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Tulu, Kannada, Dravidian in that database > > > > Are rice and tamil 'arici' related? > > > > Vaguely remember a book by Subbarao, Indian words in English. > > Any bibliographical info is welcome. > > > > N. Ganesan > > > From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Feb 5 22:37:28 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 16:37:28 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035480.23782.2489519546859504390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some Tamil words that have entered English. English Tamil *************** corundum < kuruntam betel < veRRilai (spoken tamil word is vettilai) areca < aTaikkaay beryl < veLiRu patchouli < paccilai cot < kaTTu orange < nAraGkaay copra < koppaRai coir < kayaRu jackfruit < cakkaip pazam teak < tEkku mulligatawny < miLakuttaNNiir catamaran < kaTTumaram cash < kAcu ginger < iJci Pariah < paRaiyan koel < kuyil mango < mAGkaay anicut < aNaikkaTTu curry < kaRi coolie < kUli kangany < kaNkaaNi cheroot < curuTTu Got these by searching Microsoft's Bookshelf.I am not a linguist. Any additions or corrections? Interested to know words of Dravidian words in English. Is there some good dictionary of English available where we can search a keyword like Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Tulu, Kannada, Dravidian in that database Are rice and tamil 'arici' related? Vaguely remember a book by Subbarao, Indian words in English. Any bibliographical info is welcome. N. Ganesan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 22:19:07 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 17:19:07 -0500 Subject: Women's intelligence Message-ID: <161227035478.23782.14162109611552897121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-01-31 22:35:50 EST, aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA writes: << However, at least at present I cannot recall any remark that can mean without doubt or without being contextually circumscribed in some way that women are born with a lower or inferior intelligence. >> An interesting thing to look into regarding the attitude about women's intelligence may be the gender classification in Central Dravidian vs. South Dravidian. Telugu apparently has male and non-male (which includes femininine as well as neuter) classification for singular while Tamil has persons (where males, and females are included) and non-persons classification. Regards S. Palaniappan From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Feb 6 02:33:32 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 18:33:32 -0800 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035489.23782.5602122632574112204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Geeta Bharathan wrote: > Two questions in response to Richard Salomon's question-- > > 1. Would the answer to this depend upon when E. Hultzsch did the > translation? If after "curry" had become established in the European > context, then I imagine he mightt have equated the two (curry=kaRi) and > come up with the closest approximation to what "suupa" must mean. Hultzsch's translation was published in 1925. It might be interesting to see whether A. Cunningham's earlier version (1877) and other early translations used the word "curry"--I don't have a copy at hand. But in any case I would assume that "curry" was widely current in Anglo-Indian use by Cunningham's time. > I find it interesting that the term "suupa", rather than kaRi, is used > in the edict; this raises the second set of questions-- > > 2. Where was this Asokan edict located? Given that kaRi is of Dravidian > ancestry and therefore its usage prevalent in southern India, then my > guess (sticking my neck out) would be that the edict was located in the > northern region-- is this correct? The "major rock edicts" were recorded at (at least) nine different places around India (at latest count); the version I cited is from Girnar (near Junagadh, Gujarat) [This is meant to also answer J. Thakur's earlier question about Girnar.] But the original text was presumably composed in the capital, namely Pataliputra (modern Patna) in Magadha (=Bihar); so you are right to think that the usage in question is essentially "northern." > > If not, and the location is southern, then it seems to me that its date > actually time the spread of the usage of kaRi in that part of > southern India. Is this correct? > > Thank you, this is actually getting a little closer to answering the > question that was in my mind when I first posted here. > > --Geeta > > On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Richard Salomon wrote: > > > As regards the question, in general, of what "curry" implies in indigenous > > and English use: it caught my eye that E. Hultzsch, and others following > > him, translated suupa- in Asokan rock edict 1 as "curry." This word > > occurs in the context of Asoka's concerns about the number of animals > > (including "peacock' [moraa] and "deer" [mago]) being killed for food > > (suupaathaaya), so evidently suupa- refers to meat dishes. Does this > > term then perhaps correspond to Kannada kaRi, etc? (and was Hultzsch, > > who I think knew Kannada, consciously thinking of > > this in his translation?). > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 6 02:55:14 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 18:55:14 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035490.23782.15724513109678675274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: >> <<<< Some Tamil words that have entered English. English Tamil *************** >> > orange < nAraGkaay ------------------ I remember that the standard derivation of the word "orange" is from Sanskrit nAraGgam i.e. Sanskrit narangam----> Farsi naarang---->Arabic naranj....Old french (forget what it becomes here....)---->Orange (I think that prof Luis Gonzalez-Reimann discussed this on INDOLOGY net 6-7 months ago) One of the theories about the word nAraGgam in Sanskrit is that it comes from tamizh "naru" (fragrance), but has this theory been accepted? >> > koel < kuyil This is very interesting..i.e. koel (which is a bird) from kuyil... However, the word koel is used only in Indian English and not in other parts of the world, where it is invariably the nightingale... The same is the case with the word "aNaikaTTu"/anicut...in fact I read a book called the "The Thousand rarest wprds in English" some time ago which listed "aNaikaTTu"/anicut and the Sanskrit grammatical forms dvandva/bahuvriihi etc in English...i.e. these forms have been accepted in English grammar also; the word "member-secretary" is an example of dvandva compounding. If this is true, can anybody please tell me when this development tool place? >> > Got these by searching Microsoft's Bookshelf.I am not a linguist.. >> > Any additions or corrections? Interested >> > to know words of Dravidian words in English. Among other words that I know off( i.e. from Dravidian languages other than Tamil) the word "bandicoot" is derived from Telugu "pandikokku", the word "bandy"( meaning a small cart, probably archiac now) is derived from telugu baNDi/tamizh vaNDi ( not sure which language). I am also told that the word "pundigay" ( from Tamil paNDikai i.e. festival) was used for religious fairs in southern India, but am not sure if this story is true i.e. was this word ever used in English? Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Thu Feb 5 18:28:23 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 19:28:23 +0100 Subject: Indian Onomastics In-Reply-To: <19980205181315.6634.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227035474.23782.4107948998970007466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Lakshmi Srinivas sagte : > The library to which I have access i.e., the Grad Lib at U of Michigan > does not have Hilka's Altindische Personnamen. > Can somebody let me know if it's available at your library, so I could > try an inter-lib loan. I am sure, one or the other library in USA 'd have it. Just FYI, here are complete biblio. details: TI: Beitraege zur Kenntnis der indischen Namengebung : die altindischen Personennamen AU: Alfons HILKA PP,PU, PY: Breslau : Marcus, 1910 XI, 160 pp Series: Indische Forschungen ; 3 Regards, --Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Feb 6 01:44:30 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 19:44:30 -0600 Subject: Indian Onomastics In-Reply-To: <19980205181315.6634.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227035487.23782.11008564349591765244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I xeroxed this book about 10 years ago from the Penn library. F Smith On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > Dear Members of the List > > The library to which I have access i.e., the Grad Lib at U of Michigan > does not have Hilka's Altindische Personnamen. > > Can somebody let me know if it's available at your library, so I could > try an inter-lib loan. > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > == > Lakshmi Srinivas > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Feb 5 23:46:45 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 19:46:45 -0400 Subject: A library in Moscow Message-ID: <161227035485.23782.5357801679610888570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About fifteen years ago I found at one of Berkeley's many good bookstores a three-volume set of Darmesteter's _Le Zend Avesta_, published in 1892 in the Annales du Muse'e Guimet. A very attractive set of D's translations and commentaries, with valuable photographs and diagrams of Zoroastrian rituals, ritualists, and ritual implements, etc. A real treasure. The set had once belonged to the Joseph M. Gleason Library [a library of San Francisco State Univ., I suppose?] from which it was withdrawn. There is a hand-written note in the first volume, made by an Ernest Dawson, stating that the set had been bought by him in Moscow in May 1937. There is a faint, faded stamp below this note indicating that the set had once belonged to "Biblioteka Moskovskoi Dyxovnoi Akademii", i.e., "The Library of the Moscow Spiritual Academy." I have often wondered about the sort of persons who may have studied at this academy and pored over the pages of these old, now very fragile, books. Would anyone on the list know anything about this academy? What was the fate of such organizations in general? Just curious. George Thompson From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 04:23:05 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 23:23:05 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? Message-ID: <161227035493.23782.10566666632982617885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you are trying to trace the evolution of kaRi, then you may want to consider the following: periyAzvAr tirumozi 3.4.8 kETTaRiyAtan2a kETkin2REn2 kEcavA kOvalar intiraRkuk kATTiya cORum kaRiyum tayirum kalantu uTan2 uNTAy pOlum....... periyAzvAr tirumozi 3.5.1 aTTuk kuvicORRup paruppatamum tayir vAviyum ney aLaRum aTaGkap poTTat tuRRi mArip pakai puNartta porumA kaTalvaNNan2 poRutta malai... In conection with the episode of kRSNa lifting the govardhana hill, periyAzvAr says that kRSNa ate rice, "kaRi", and yogurt (meant for Indra) in the first poem. In the second he says kRSNa ate rice, yogurt, and "ney aLaRu". I do not know if there is any specificity regarding what items kRSNa ate among zrivaiSNavas. Since aLaRu (synonymous with cERu) refers to a mushy stuff, if it is taken as a quasi-liquid stuff (kuzampu) made with ghee (and other items), it could suggest an instance where kaRi meant not just a side dish. If "ney aLaRu" meant only ghee, we have to look to some other sources. One can check the history of the usage of iyeGkAr's "kaRiyamutu". Inscriptions may help. They often have details on what specific food items were supposed to be offered using the endowments. Also, one can check bhAgavatapurANa and harivamza to see what items kRSNa ate in the govardhana episode. Particularly, bhAgavatapurANa (having been produced in Tamilnadu) might use a Sanskrit term which might throw some light on this. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 07:05:56 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 02:05:56 -0500 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? Message-ID: <161227035495.23782.18108868922778467821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-05 12:23:20 EST, geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU writes: << On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > miLaku occurs in Classical Tamil. "kaRi" in CT also refers to biting as well > as the pepper plant/pepper. The word "miriyal" is also used in CT for pepper. > kuzampu must have been of very ancient usage. According to Burrow and > Southworth, Vedic karambha is said to be derived from kuzampu. Does the difference in consistency/coninuity of usage imply anything about which word was the "original" one for pepper? I find it fascinating that miLaku should still be in use as the word for pepper, while connotations for kaRi should have been so variable over time (not to speak of its mutation into curry powder, etc in modern times and in other languages). >> There is one line in Classical Tamil work malaipaTukaTAm (521) where both words are used. karuGkoTi miLakin2 kAyttuNarp pacuGkaRi which means "the green bunches of unripe kaRi of the black creeper miLaku". There is a Classical Tamil poem puRanAn2URu 14 with the following lines: pulavu nARRatta paintaTi pUnARRatta pukai koLIi Un2tuvai kaRicORu uNTu........ (puR.14.12-14) Here kaRi can be taken to mean a mashed meat dish. On the other hand, in perumpANARRuppaTai, in a brahmin neighborhood (I referred to this in the posting on Cats), vegetarian dishes are described: cuTarkkaTaip paRavaip peyarppaTu vattam cEtA naRumOr veNNeyin2 mAtuLattu uruppuRu pacuGkAyp pOzoTu kaRi kalantu kaJcaka naRumuRi aLaiip paintuNar neTumarak kokkin2 naRuvaTi vitirtta takaimAN kAtiyin2 vakaipaTap peRukuvir (per.305-310) Here flavorful vaTu (naRuvaTi) mango pickle is described as being made with pepper (kaRi kalantu) and curry leaves (kaJcaka naRumuRi aLaii). This is among the various items the bards (pANar) can expect to be fed by the woman of the brahmin household. (Some difference between this and the story of tiruppANAzvAr!) Thus we have here kaRi used to mean seasoning, as well as a mashed dish. So, the extended meaning of kaRi must be very old. But even today, we have the term kaRimiLaku. Another poem talks about Greek/Roman (yavan2ar) ships coming to the cEra port of muciRi with gold and returning with pepper (akam. 149.10). So it may be worth looking into Latin/Greek/Arabic words for pepper. The west had an interest in kaRi long before the Portuguese. After all, is the discovery of the Americas not attributed to the west's need for kaRi and other spices? Regards S. Palaniappan From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 6 11:16:18 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 03:16:18 -0800 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227035500.23782.7201604681079357860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, does anybody of you know madhyamika and vijnanavada texts in which I could find the explanation of asatkhyati and atmakhyati theories of false cognition? I'll be very grateful for any helpful information. Sincerely Yours, Olenev Dmitry. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Feb 6 16:14:05 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:14:05 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035506.23782.17119954852333119848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Tamil words in English *************************** In Tamil, naRu means smell. Like in naRu malar = flower with a good smell. nARRam = smell. Prior to 10th century or so, nARRam meant only good smell. Compare the Srivaishnava Woman Saint Andal's song: karppUram nARumO? kamalap pU nARumO?. Here it definitely means good smell. nARRaGkAy or nARaGkaay means an unripened fruit with a unique smell. Nowadays, it is called nArttaGkAy or nArattaGkAy or nAraGkAy in spoken language. Webster's dictionary derives Orange from a Dravidian origin via Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, Old Provencal, French and finally, middle English. See S. Kichenassamy's Indology posting on 13 oct 1995. I am sure: nARRaGkAy -> nAraGkAy ... -> Orange N. Ganesan PS: A. K. Ramanujan once told me Koel is from tamil kuyil. He uses the word Koel in his translations from Tamil too. From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Fri Feb 6 09:25:50 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:25:50 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <01IT876HGHPE0044MT@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035497.23782.1400853188498515612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> N. Ganesan wrote: > Vaguely remember a book by Subbarao, Indian words in English. > Any bibliographical info is welcome. Interesting that you bring his name and dictionary into discussion here. It was the first book - authored by an Indian - I got hold of, in our university library :-). I was searching for _Hobson-Jobson_ (by Henry Yule) and came across this work by Subba Rao. Seems he died quite young, and the book is result of his thesis at Oxford (?) in late 1920s. Rao, G. Subba: Indian words in English : a study in Indo-British cultural and linguistic relations. - Repr Oxford : Clarendon Pr., 1969. - XII, 139 PP. Regards, --Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Fri Feb 6 09:45:32 1998 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:45:32 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035498.23782.12798448069077438146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding N. Ganesan's query about Tamil words that have entered English and "some good dictionary of English available where one can search a keyword like Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Tulu, Kannada, Dravidian in that database", I would suggest, in the first place, the OED on CD ROM. The search engine that goes with it makes it possible to compile a list of words of foreign origin in English with their etymologies and dates of their first (attested) appearance in the language. Then there are several specialized dictionaries, e.g. the time-hallowed Hobson Jobson, and several other books of reference and as well as special monographs, some of which can be found in the following select bibliography: Hankin, Nigel B. (1992, 1994). Hanklyn-Janklyn. A stranger's rumble-tumble guide to some words, customs and quiddities Indian and Indo-British. Banyan Books, New Delhi. Kachru, Braj B. (1983). The Indianization of English. The English Language in India. OUP Lewis, Ivor (1991). Sahibs, Nabobs and Boxwallahs. A Dictionary of the Words of Anglo-India. OUP Maclean, C.D. ed. (1893, 1982). Glossary of the Madras Presidency. Containing a Classification of terminology, a Gazetteer and Economic dictionary of the province and other information, the whole arranged alphabetically and indexed. Reprinted by Asian Educational Services, New Delhi. Rao, G. Subba (19540. Indian Words in English. A Study in Indo-British Cultural and Linguistic Relations. Clarendon Press, Oxford. Whitford, George Clifford (1885, 1976). An Anglo-Indian Dictionary. A Glossary of Indian Terms used in English, and of such English or other non-Indian Terms as have obtained special meanings in India. Kegan Paul, Trench & Co., London, reprinted by Indian Documentation Service, Gurgaon/New Delhi. Wilson, H.H. (1855, 1968). A Glossary of Judicial and Revenue Terms, and of useful words occurring in official documents relating to the administration of the government of British India..., reprinted by Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi. Yule, Henry - Burnell, A.C. (1886, 1903, 1968]. Hobson-Jobson. A Glossary of Colloquial Anglo-Indian Words and Phrases, and of Kindred Terms, Etymological, Historical, Geographical and Discursive. New edition ed. by W. Crooke. Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi. >Are rice and tamil 'arici' related? I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but also in other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). > >Vaguely remember a book by Subbarao, Indian words in English. This is perhaps the first scholarly treatment of the growth and development of South Asian element in English. Incidentally, I am presently engaged in preparing a study entitled (provisionally) "Anglo-Indian Encounters. Loanwords of South Asian Origin in English". Jan Filipsky Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 phone 004202 6605 3729 e-mail private: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 - Troja phone 004202 855 74 53 From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Feb 6 11:39:17 1998 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 12:39:17 +0100 Subject: A transgression? (on Tolstoy and ahimsa) Message-ID: <161227035502.23782.11317075641076797730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thank those who reacted to my queries regarding "Tolstoy and ahimsa", especially Yarosslav Vassilkov for his elaborate clarifications. My source regarding the Buddhist influence on Tolstoy (Eric Hoogcarspels question) was the one mentioned in my original posting, The Oriental Renaissance of Raymond Schwab, 1984 (originally in French, 1950), chapter 22 on Russian Orientalism and Nonviolence. On p. 451 a Markovitch is quoted: "Although he turned towards the Gospels in the end, his was a Christianity underpinned by the great Hindu doctrines, confirmed by the Buddha, from which he drew." It is further said that, when Tolstoy had to be hospitalized at the age of nineteen, a Buddhist lama "whose conversations he found edifying" happened to be in the bed next to him. A more detailed answer was provided by John Richards in his posting of 4 Feb 1998 07:57:39. JH From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Feb 6 19:07:57 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:07:57 -0600 Subject: "Curry" and its origins? Message-ID: <161227035507.23782.12063648233904719946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Salt and Pepper (kaRi in Dravidian) found on dinner tables remind Indians of the European contact, I was told. Europeans came to India looking for Pepper. Mahatma Gandhi got the British out using Salt satyagraha. :-) N. Ganesan From jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Fri Feb 6 18:33:38 1998 From: jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (SStephen) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:33:38 -0500 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035531.23782.11698603093270482360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate if any one on the list could shed some light on the following. When did each of Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada first appear? What is the earliest available literary work in these languages and what period does it belong to? Sujatha From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 6 22:05:35 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 14:05:35 -0800 Subject: Indian Onomastics Message-ID: <161227035514.23782.12961686229690182029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to the list members (S Krishna, Palaniappa S, Richard S, RD Saran and Sreenivas), for your helpful leads. Regards. ---Richard Salomon wrote: > > Hilka's Altindische Personennamen may be catalogued under the series title > "Indische Forschungen" (vol. 3), ed. Alfred Hillebrandt; and/or under > "Beitra:ge zur Kenntnis der indischen Namengebung." > > RS > > On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > > > Dear Members of the List > > > > The library to which I have access i.e., the Grad Lib at U of Michigan > > does not have Hilka's Altindische Personnamen. > > > > Can somebody let me know if it's available at your library, so I could > > try an inter-lib loan. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == > > Lakshmi Srinivas > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > DO YOU YAHOO!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Fri Feb 6 22:20:34 1998 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 14:20:34 -0800 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035516.23782.2277903211625221588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a note to inform list members that the article on the Jyotirmath succession at the Indology website has been updated on February 4, with some new information. See URL - http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/shank-jyot.html Vidyasankar From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Feb 6 13:39:24 1998 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 14:39:24 +0100 Subject: Rgvedic RbIsa Message-ID: <161227035504.23782.11269553037580544534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thank al those who reacted to my question regarding RbIsa and vulcanic clefts "from which hot vapours arise". The reactions strengthened me in my belief that such clefts did not occur in the area of the Rgvedic authors. Aklujkar's suggestion and the Iranian connection is to be investigated further, as also the suggestion in Falk's Bruderschaft p. 181 regarding the RNakuNDa on the basis of a vAdhUla-passage (especially now that new manuscriptmaterial on vAdhUla has been found). I am not aware of a word arbIsa in Zrautatexts, only of the compound RbIsa-pakva, e.g. ApZS 5.25.6 RbIsapakvaM nAZnIyAt. JH. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Feb 6 21:04:54 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 16:04:54 -0500 Subject: SARAI EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227035513.23782.12019978695531517836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact event organizers directly for any further information. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ANNOUNCEMENT David Magier, SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ====================================================================== CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT: Furthering the Dialogue: Domestic Violence & the South Asian Immigrant Community April 4, 1998 St. John's University, Jamaica, New York This one-day workshop will provide an opportunity for concerned organizations and individuals in the greater New York area to focus on ways in which domestic violence affects the South Asian community, and to build community coalitions around this important issue. Scheduled presenters range from academics, activists, and artists to social workers, healthcare professionals, and legal experts, as well as representatives of religious institutions. Topics for discussion include the role of religious institutions in tackling domestic violence, strategies for building community coalitions, effects of domestic violence on second generation South Asians, same-sex domestic violence, South Asian men's role, violence against the elderly, and the disabled, immigration, legal, and welfare challenges that face battered women, the challenging domestic violence through artistic expression. The conference will also include a forum for artistic presentations on domestic violence. Sponsors: St. John's University's Graduate School of Arts & Sciences, Vincentian Center for Church & Society, Center for Psychological Services & Clinical Studies, Department of Sociology/Anthropology, and Columbia University's Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center. Co-sponsors: Marine Midland Bank, American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, New York Asian Women's Center, and Pragati Inc. Special Assistance from: Catholic Charities, Diocese of Brooklyn and Queens and the Queens Borough President's Task Force Against Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence For registration materials, please provide your name and mailing address to dhirc at columbia.edu or call (212) 854-5300 ********************************************************************** Conference Program: 8:45 Registration 9:30 Opening Remarks Dr. Dipak Haldar, Professor of Biology, St. John's University 9:55 Domestic Violence in the South Asian Community: the Larger Context Dr. Sujata Warrier, NY State Office for the Prevention of Domestic Violence and Manavi 10:15 The Role of Religion in the South Asian Community and its Relation to Issues of Domestic Violence Virtue, Gender and the Family: Religious Texts in Hinduism and Islam Dr. Habib Rahim, Assistant Professor, Dept. of Theology and Religious Studies, St. John's University Panel Discussion: The Role of Religious Institutions in Tackling Domestic Violence Moderator: Dr. Mary McGee, Religion Department, Columbia University a) Ruksana Ayub, Long Island Islamic Center, Domestic Harmony Committee b) Chan Jamoona, Arya Spiritual Center c) Gagandeep Kaur, Sikh Women's International Organization d) Rev. John Mendonca, Mary Queen of Heaven, R.C. Church e) Prema Vora, Sakhi 12:30 - 2 pm Lunch 1-1:15 Luncheon Speaker: Where are we going from here? Mala Desai, Pragati Inc. 2:00 - 3:30 Workshops A) Negotiating the Institutional Maze: Domestic Violence in the South Asian Context. Leader: Sunita Rampersad, Sanctuary for Families' Center for Battered Women's Legal Services. B) Effects of Domestic Violence on the Second Generation Leaders: Sayu Bhojwani, Executive Director, South Asian Youth Action and Aparna Lal, Asian Women's Center C) Invisible Violence in the South Asian Community Leaders: Maura Bairley, New York City Anti-Violence Project. and Ram Kumar Iyer, Elmhurst Hospital Center D) Challenging Domestic Violence though Artistic Expression Moderator: To be announced. Presenters include the Nav Nirman Foundation. E) Roundtable Discussion: Strategies for Building Community Collaboration Moderator: Dr. Shamita Das Dasgupta, founding member of Manavi and Professor of Psychology, Rutgers University Panelists: Anju Bhargava, Asian Indian Women in America; Barbara Kuchuk, Queens Borough Task Force on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault; Dr. Munira Merchant, Valparaiso University, Rahul Sharma, Chicago School of Professional Psychology; 3:45 Not Remembering Roop Kanwar -- a performance piece on global issues of domestic violence choreographed by Ananya Chatterjee, Women's Studies Department, Temple University 4:50 Closing Remarks -- Dean Gingrich, Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, St. John's University From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Feb 6 22:59:08 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 16:59:08 -0600 Subject: khyaati Message-ID: <161227035518.23782.13049996976177316338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Olenev, It seems that the terms *asatkhyaati* and *aatmakhyaati* are used by non-Buddhists, criticizing and labelling as such the Buddhist positions of the M. and V. traditions. See NYAAYAMA~NJARII of Jayanta Bha.t.ta, Vol. 2, Varanasi, Chowkhamba, 1969, (mine is bound together with vol.1, 1971) pp.110-114. If you have a different edition, it is two short sections toward the end of the *prameyaprakara.na*, just before *sa.mzayaprakara.na*. Jayanta also discuses these views on Prabhaakara's behalf. If you do not get the answers on this net, somebody on Buddha-L at ULKYVM (I am not absolutely sure of the net address, you may have it already) might help. Good luck. Edeltraud Harzer Clear Asian Studies UT Austin, Texas Dear colleagues, > > does anybody of you know madhyamika and vijnanavada texts in which >I could find the explanation of >asatkhyati and atmakhyati theories of false cognition? >I'll be very grateful for any helpful information. > > Sincerely Yours, Olenev Dmitry. > > > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Feb 6 23:29:07 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 17:29:07 -0600 Subject: A transgression? (on Tolstoy and ahimsa) In-Reply-To: <01IT9D5PPOD090NGI9@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227035520.23782.4737242827156283891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been hesitant to thank Yarosslav, George, Jan, et al; for theier follow-up on my original Transgression question b/c I did not want to put this most interesting thread to bed. Nonetheless, else I otherwise seem ungrateful, please know that I have enjoyed everyone's comments, found them useful, and hope that any further info continues to come to light. jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Fri Feb 6 09:56:26 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 18:56:26 +0900 Subject: khyaati Message-ID: <161227035529.23782.15100046804127313370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev wrote: > > > > does anybody of you know madhyamika and vijnanavada texts in which > >I could find the explanation of > >asatkhyati and atmakhyati theories of false cognition? > >I'll be very grateful for any helpful information. > > > > I would recommend consulting Lambert Schmithausen's publication "Man.d.anami'sra's Vibhramavivekah. Mit einer Studie zur Entwicklung der indischen Irrtumslehre" (Vienna 1965). It's the most extensive and thorough treatment of theories of cognitive error I am aware of, and goes far beyond the necessary minimum in explaining the ontological and epistemological background of the theories involved. On p.148-151, Schmithausen briefly outlines Mahaayaana Buddhist theories. His textual sources are Catuh.'sataka XIII 25 (also Catuh.'satakavr.tti, p.197, both ed. Bhattacharya, Calcutta 1931); 'Siks.asamuccaya 140.17 (ed. Vaidya 1961). He also refers to Frauwallner's "Philosophie des Buddhismus", p.249f. for Candrakiirti. I don't have the book here, but suppose that Frauwallner gives the relevant textual references. Man.d.anami'sra's treatment of the aatma-/asatkhyaati is given on p.233-236, where, in addition to a Yogaacaara-aatmakhyaati, Schmithausen also refers to a "more complicated" Sautraantika-aatmakhyaati which can be found in Dignaaga's Pramaan.asamuccaya and in Dharmakiirti's texts. -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Fri Feb 6 20:44:11 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 21:44:11 +0100 Subject: Indian onomastics In-Reply-To: <19980130012551.10781.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035511.23782.9526960037113832649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have been forgetting to quote one more book, on Indian Onomastics, I am aware of; Ti: The book of Indian Names Au: Rajaram, Mehrotra (Ed) PP: New Delhi PU: Rupa & co. PY: 1994 ISBN: 81-7167-149-7. I should add that I haven't read the complete book, but just have one essay that is of interest to me; "Telugu personal names - a structural analysis" by Andre Sjoberg (pp. 147-160). Regards, Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Sat Feb 7 03:17:29 1998 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 22:17:29 -0500 Subject: khyaati In-Reply-To: <199802062259.QAA24149@curly.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <161227035524.23782.14260963318144471553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One place to look is Vasubandhu's trisvabhaavanirde"sa. Khyati is the key 'verb' (usually mishandled in translations), though more a prototype and analogy than a systematic treatment, but that's probably because this text precedes (but implies) the distinctions you asked about. Good luck. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 7 01:23:27 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 06:23:27 +0500 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <01IT983INXXE0047UI@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035522.23782.589160648413645436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:14 AM 2/6/98 -0600, N.Ganesan writes: >Re: Tamil words in English >*************************** > >In Tamil, naRu means smell. Like in naRu malar = flower with a good smell. >nARRam = smell. > >Prior to 10th century or so, nARRam meant only good smell. >Compare the Srivaishnava Woman Saint Andal's song: >karppUram nARumO? kamalap pU nARumO?. Here it definitely >means good smell. > > nARRaGkAy or nARaGkaay means an unripened fruit with a unique smell. >Nowadays, it is called nArttaGkAy or nArattaGkAy or nAraGkAy >in spoken language. > >Webster's dictionary derives Orange from a Dravidian origin >via Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, Old Provencal, French and finally, >middle English. See S. Kichenassamy's Indology posting >on 13 oct 1995. > >I am sure: >nARRaGkAy -> nAraGkAy ... -> Orange > >N. Ganesan > >PS: >A. K. Ramanujan once told me Koel is from tamil kuyil. >He uses the word Koel in his translations from Tamil too. > > Saying that all these words are from Tamil only may not be correct. For example Koel can be from telugu "koyila". Telugu word is much closer than "kuyil". Similarly English Telugu copra kobbari teak tEku coolie kulI anicut Anakatta cash kAcu What I see from the postings on this list from my tamil friends is that they forget that there are three MAJOR, well developed dravidian languages besides tamil in South India. Telugu at that time known as "Gentoo" was extensively used by European and East India company people. The borrowings cannot be only from tamil will be a more reasonable position. But then..... regards, sarma. From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Sat Feb 7 09:14:14 1998 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Mark F. Tritsch) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 10:14:14 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035526.23782.9124222521438287814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 05 Feb 1998 S Krishna wrote: > >> On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > >> > koel < kuyil > > This is very interesting..i.e. koel (which is a bird) from kuyil... > However, the word koel is used only in Indian English and not in other > parts of the world, where it is invariably the nightingale... The Koel is not a nightingale. It is a cuckoo (Eudonyamis scolopaceae) which lays its eggs in the nests of crows (which it resembles in appearance. Its call can be almost as irritating as that of the Brainfever Bird (also a cuckoo). Mark Tritsch *************************************************** Dr. Mark F. Tritsch Breslauer Strasse 14 B 65203 Wiesbaden GERMANY Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497 *************************************************** From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Feb 7 14:52:37 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 15:52:37 +0100 Subject: indrAdayaH surAH Message-ID: <161227035533.23782.6692017527107145160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I've found in MMW dictionary, under Adi, the syntagm indrAdayaH surAH (without any reference). But it seems to me that, in the Rg veda, the lists of Gods begin more frequently by vAyu than by indra. Even in the mahAbhArata, arjuna is a third son. What could be a list of Gods begining by indra? it's a canonical gaNa? from which text? I'd like to be enlightened. Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thompson at JLC.NET Sat Feb 7 22:11:07 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 18:11:07 -0400 Subject: indrAdayaH surAH Message-ID: <161227035535.23782.13183383605602542028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominique, You are right to note that such lists more frequently begin with vAyu. But there are many such lists beginning with indra. Here's one: RV 4.54.6 i'ndro dyA'vApRthivI' si'ndhur adbhi'r / Adityai'r no a'ditiH za'rma yaMsat// [others: RV 5.49.3; 7.34.25; 7.51.3; 7.82.10; 7.93.8, etc. etc. etc] George Thompson >Dear Indologists, > I've found in MMW dictionary, under Adi, the syntagm indrAdayaH >surAH (without any reference). But it seems to me that, in the Rg veda, the >lists of Gods begin more frequently by vAyu than by indra. Even in the >mahAbhArata, arjuna is a third son. What could be a list of Gods begining >by indra? it's a canonical gaNa? from which text? > I'd like to be enlightened. >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 8 03:05:33 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 19:05:33 -0800 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035540.23782.1200601481263238661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sujatha Stephens writes: < >Sujatha > First and foremost, I am not a literature expert, so I can only offer what I have come to know by studying various books..please feel free to correct me if corrections need to be made... The reason why I'm volunteering to reply is that this seems to be a fairly easy question and therefore beginers like me can attempt to answer it...unless there is some subtle trick hidden in the question:-) AFAIK, Tamil is obviously the oldest with a literary tradition dating back atleast to the first century...A.K.Ramanujan has a wonde rful translation of this poetry( the "akam" section, that is) in his book "The Interior Landscape". It is possible that the literary tradition is older...one very interesting claim that I've seen is that Megasthenes, the Grecian ambassador of Alexander ( approximately 3-4th century BCE) during the Mauryan times refered to the marriage of a Hindu Goddess in the city of "Methora" and it's versification etc, which could be a possible reference to the tiruviLaiyADALpurANam... Kannada, seems to be the second oldest( Kamil Zvelebil says it branched off from Tamil sometime in the 3rd or 4th century CE{Kannada enthusiasts, please don't flame me for this, I'm only quoting Prof Zvelebil, who is also a kannaDa scholar:-)})..the oldest known work is the"kavirAjamArga" dating back to the 9th century...since this work refers to many works not available today, it seems to be a fairly sensible to conclude that there were kannaDa works written prior to this... The oldest known work in Telugu is the Mahabharatam by nAnaiya bha TTa written in the 11th century. I remember reading a long time ago (I have NOT read the actual work, but am refering to a comment that I read) that even at this stage, sanskritization of the language seems fairly evident( this is not true of the earliest tamil literature and not true of kannada literature either, since the "kavirAjamArga" explicitly prohibits use of sanskrit-kannaDa compounds and the veerashiva writings of the 12th century i.e. DOhara kakkaiya, mahA dEviyakka etc are not sanskritized.In this context, I would like to know in this context if there was a period where it was common to find non-Samskrtized writing in telugu?( annamAcArya seems to have written some compositions using pure telugu words and the same seems true of the poetess molla's "molla rAmAyaNamu", but these are from a later period) In malayALam, the oldest work (AFAIK) is the grammatical treatise , the "lIlAtilakam" which dates back to the 14th century. As always, please correct me where I'm going wrong........ Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Sat Feb 7 23:24:04 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 02:24:04 +0300 Subject: A library in Moscow Message-ID: <161227035537.23782.16992666567043131242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Feb 06 George Thompson wrote: Shalom to all, I would like to thank E. Harzer Clear and G. von Simson for referring me to M. Mayrhofer's etimological dictionary. Mayrhofer also reads Naciketas as "naci+ketas", like Chrpentier. But unlike him, he relates the name to the root "cit" and knowlege, and says nothing about Makaraketu, the epithet of Kamadeva. Does anyone know about any text or commentary that connects Naciketas with Kama, beside Charpentier's note in his translation of the Katha Upanishad? Thanks in advance for your help. Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Feb 8 13:04:51 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 08:04:51 -0500 Subject: indrAdayaH surAH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035544.23782.16524817578665190687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The list of gods beginning with Indra commonly occurs in the Nala story from the Mahabharta. See the selection of this story in Lanman's Sanskrit reader: P.7, line 10, 13 (mahendrAdyAH); p. 9, line 7 (Sakro'gnir varuNo yamaH); p. 11, line 9 (devAS cendrapurogamAH). All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Dear Indologists, > I've found in MMW dictionary, under Adi, the syntagm indrAdayaH > surAH (without any reference). But it seems to me that, in the Rg veda, the > lists of Gods begin more frequently by vAyu than by indra. Even in the > mahAbhArata, arjuna is a third son. What could be a list of Gods begining > by indra? it's a canonical gaNa? from which text? > I'd like to be enlightened. > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > From prince at MX.KOBE-SHINWA.AC.JP Sun Feb 8 06:27:34 1998 From: prince at MX.KOBE-SHINWA.AC.JP (Matsumura) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 15:27:34 +0900 Subject: pronunciation of Leon Feer Message-ID: <161227035542.23782.2196644095975558423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear (French) colleagues, I would like to know pronunciation of a French name, Leon (e with accent) Feer. [fee], [fe:r], [fe] or any other? Thanks in advance. Hisashi Hisashi MATSUMURA prince at kobe-shinwa.ac.jp From hmueller at MAILER.FSU.EDU Mon Feb 9 00:42:50 1998 From: hmueller at MAILER.FSU.EDU (h-fom) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 20:42:50 -0400 Subject: Oxford University Press in India Message-ID: <161227035551.23782.6261820166948312387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I beg your pardon in advance for writing to you with a query that has little to do with the Indology list. I am a classicist with a special interest in Roman religion, and have only just begun studying Sanskrit. In beginning my studies, however, I purchased books originally published by Oxford University Press, but now reprinted in India. These books were surprisingly affordable in comparison with the prices OUP charges for reprints of classical texts in Greek and Latin. Inasmuch as OUP publishes in India, it occurred to me that perhaps Oxford licenses versions of its classical offerings for the Indian market, and that the prices of Greek and Latin texts printed in India might prove similarly affordable. As it is, I borrow most texts from the library, because Oxford's prices are so high. A recent commentary on Livy, for example, costs US$145. (By way of comparison, according to Books in Print, Oxford's version of Monier Williams' Sanskrit-English Dictionary costs US$125, the Indian version US$55.) In short, I am curious to know whether Oxford publishes less expensive versions of its classical offerings in India. Again, my apologies for the intrusion, and many thanks in advance for any information! Sincerely yours, Hans-Friedrich Mueller P.S. Please reply off list: hmueller at mailer.fsu.edu ______J o h a n n e s F r i d e r i c u s M o l i n a r i u s Dr. Hans-Friedrich Mueller _______________________________________________________________ Department of Classics fax 850.644.4073 The Florida State University Office 850.644.0310 Tallahassee, Florida 32306 / USA Department 850.644.4259 ___________T h e F l o r i d a S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 8 16:39:06 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 22:09:06 +0530 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages In-Reply-To: <0b1e04628180728UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <161227035548.23782.5346937753375656810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > When did each of Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada first appear? > What is the earliest available literary work in these languages and > what period does it belong to? Tamil: earliest dated inscription 270 CE Kannada: earliest inscription ca. 450 CE Telugu: earliest inscription 633 CE Malayalam will be later. (See: K.V. Zvelebil, _Dravidian Linguistics: An Introduction_. Pondicherry: Pondicherry Institute of Linguistics and Culture, 1990.) The earliest literary work in Kannada is the Kaviraajamaarga, 9th century CE, which contains fragments of older works which are lost. RZ From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 8 18:16:53 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 23:16:53 +0500 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035549.23782.5368243205285461496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You must avoid one pitfall; the earliest available written record has nothing to do with the branching and subgrouping of languages. Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada, Tulu (?), Kodagu, Toda, Kota, Irula, etc. belong to one subgroup which I call South Dravidian I; Telugu, Gondi, Konda, Kui, Kuvi, Pengo, Manda, etc. belong to another subgroup I call South Dravidian II (or South-Central Dravidian). Although the literary language Telugu has a later written record than Ta.Ka., (there is evidence of loss of earlier literature, perhaps Jaina works in Telugu), its branching off from SDI goes back to at least one millennium BC. Both SDI and SDII go back to an undivided period of say 10-11th century BC. The rationale of this can be found in several of my papers, particularly my review of Zvelebil's 1970 book in Lingua in 1974 and my article on Areal and lexical diffusion of sound change in the journal Language (1978). Bh.K. At 22:09 08/02/98 +0530, you wrote: >> When did each of Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada first appear? >> What is the earliest available literary work in these languages and >> what period does it belong to? > >Tamil: earliest dated inscription 270 CE >Kannada: earliest inscription ca. 450 CE >Telugu: earliest inscription 633 CE >Malayalam will be later. > >(See: K.V. Zvelebil, _Dravidian Linguistics: An Introduction_. >Pondicherry: Pondicherry Institute of Linguistics and Culture, 1990.) > >The earliest literary work in Kannada is the Kaviraajamaarga, 9th >century CE, which contains fragments of older works which are lost. > >RZ > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 9 14:36:40 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 06:36:40 -0800 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035560.23782.15898458772517150606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am afraid if you include the Tamil Brahmi inscriptions, the date does get pushed further back. ---"Robert J. Zydenbos" wrote: > > > When did each of Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada first appear? > > What is the earliest available literary work in these languages and > > what period does it belong to? > > Tamil: earliest dated inscription 270 CE > Kannada: earliest inscription ca. 450 CE > Telugu: earliest inscription 633 CE > Malayalam will be later. > > (See: K.V. Zvelebil, _Dravidian Linguistics: An Introduction_. > Pondicherry: Pondicherry Institute of Linguistics and Culture, 1990.) > > The earliest literary work in Kannada is the Kaviraajamaarga, 9th > century CE, which contains fragments of older works which are lost. > > RZ > == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 9 14:53:25 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 06:53:25 -0800 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035562.23782.15105057892157396367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the case of Malayalam, it is perhaps not very accurate to say that the earliest writing dates from ca. 14th century or so. For some reason, these dates seem to applicable to kavya type works in these languages. Prose might however be a different matter. In this context, I would like to draw the list members' attention to the fact that many lost Sanskrit classics viz., kavya, natya and even sastra works (and their commentaries) were uncovered from Kerala. Examples would be manuscripts of Bhasa's dramas etc.. In some cases, commentaries have been found with annotations written in what has traditionally been held to be Tamil. Expert opinion however confirms that these are in what has later come to be known as Malayalam. At least one of these commentaries ('tika') dates from the 12th century or before. Warm Regards. ---S Krishna wrote: > > Sujatha Stephens writes: > < following. > > When did each of Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada first appear? What > isthe earliest available literary work in these languages and what > period does it belong to? > > > >Sujatha > > > > > First and foremost, I am not a literature expert, so I can only offer > what I have come to know by studying various books..please feel free > to correct me if corrections need to be made... The reason why I'm > volunteering to reply is that this seems to be a fairly easy question > and therefore beginers like me can attempt to answer it...unless there > is some subtle trick hidden in the question:-) > > AFAIK, Tamil is obviously the oldest with a literary tradition > dating back atleast to the first century...A.K.Ramanujan has a wonde > rful translation of this poetry( the "akam" section, that is) in his > book "The Interior Landscape". It is possible that the literary > tradition is older...one very interesting claim that I've seen is that > Megasthenes, the Grecian ambassador of Alexander ( approximately 3-4th > century BCE) during the Mauryan times refered to the marriage of a Hindu > Goddess in the city of "Methora" and it's versification etc, which > could be a possible reference to the tiruviLaiyADALpurANam... > > Kannada, seems to be the second oldest( Kamil Zvelebil says it > branched off from Tamil sometime in the 3rd or 4th century CE{Kannada > enthusiasts, please don't flame me for this, I'm only quoting Prof > Zvelebil, who is also a kannaDa scholar:-)})..the oldest known work is > the"kavirAjamArga" dating back to the 9th century...since this work > refers to many works not available today, it seems to be a fairly > sensible to conclude that there were kannaDa works written prior to > this... > > The oldest known work in Telugu is the Mahabharatam by nAnaiya bha > TTa written in the 11th century. I remember reading a long time ago > (I have NOT read the actual work, but am refering to a comment that > I read) that even at this stage, sanskritization of the language seems > fairly evident( this is not true of the earliest tamil literature and > not true of kannada literature either, since the "kavirAjamArga" > explicitly prohibits use of sanskrit-kannaDa compounds and the > veerashiva writings of the 12th century i.e. DOhara kakkaiya, mahA > dEviyakka etc are not sanskritized.In this context, I would like to know > in this context if there was a period where it was common to find > non-Samskrtized writing in telugu?( annamAcArya seems to have written > some compositions using pure telugu words and the same seems true of > the poetess molla's "molla rAmAyaNamu", but these are from a later > period) > > In malayALam, the oldest work (AFAIK) is the grammatical treatise > , the "lIlAtilakam" which dates back to the 14th century. > > > As always, please correct me where I'm going wrong........ > > Regards, > Krishna > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Feb 9 17:15:28 1998 From: ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ditte Bandini) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 09:15:28 -0800 Subject: Curry Message-ID: <161227035553.23782.14243757144302140498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning the currency of the word "curry" by Cunningham?s time, it may be intersting to note that the first documented usage according to the Oxford English Dictionary is in the year 1598; it mentions also a Cooking book (Art of Cookery) of 1747 in which curry is described. etc. D.B. -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Mon Feb 9 08:31:13 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 09:31:13 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035555.23782.15873713999019460228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > >A. K. Ramanujan once told me Koel is from tamil kuyil. > >He uses the word Koel in his translations from Tamil too. > > Saying that all these words are from Tamil only may not be correct. > For example Koel can be from telugu "koyila". Telugu word is much > closer than "kuyil". Both forms and all the related names for the Koel or Eudynamis scolopaceus (Linn.) in modern Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages are of course derived from Sanskrit kokila, Prakrit kOila, *kOyila. Regards, Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Belgium From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Feb 9 15:45:04 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 09:45:04 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035564.23782.5292284800860135502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Are rice and tamil 'arici' related? >I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but also in >other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). Greetings, Prof. Filipsky. This is not widely known. Thanks for the suggestion for OED on CD-ROM. I will search for the keywords: tamil, dravidian, telugu, malayalam, kannada and tulu. Please feel free to add any words from Tamil. I don't think the OED compilers had or have any scholars who know well Tamil or Dravidian. Here is what Prof. K. Nachimuthu from Warsaw adds. May be useful for your project. His e-mail: tamizh at plearn.edu.pl ** Regarding Dravidian borrowals into English there is details in **Prof. T. P. Meenakshisundaram's History of Tamil Language.There are articles **in Indian Linguistics written by scholars like Dr.S.V.Subramanian.There **is also a book reprinted by DLA may be Indo Aryan loan words in Malayalam. **If you are interestedin curiosities you canalso refer the Hobson Jobson... **with greetings. Have a good Thai Pusam. anbudan, K. Nachimuthu. Regards, N. Ganesan Aside: To be on the safe side, I would add that arici is not only tamil but Telugu, ProtoDravidian as well. :-) From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 9 10:39:58 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 10:39:58 +0000 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035557.23782.4281184787053618514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > Tamil: earliest dated inscription 270 CE > Kannada: earliest inscription ca. 450 CE > Telugu: earliest inscription 633 CE > Malayalam will be later. This is very interesting, but does not speak to the history of the languages so much as to the history of writing. If we were to try to draw conclusions, for example, about the antiquity of the Sanskrit language from epigraphical data, we would fall into the extraordinarily contorted intellectual position adopted by Nirad Choudhuri in his book on Hinduism: he claimed that Prakrit preceeded Sanskrit chronologically (because Prakrit inscriptions are older than Sanskrit ones) and then used that old chestnut "the Brahmin conspiracy" to account for the creation of the "myth" of Sanskrit as an ancient language. It's great fun, but complete nonsense, of course. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Feb 9 16:59:23 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 10:59:23 -0600 Subject: Origin of Dravidian Languages Message-ID: <161227035567.23782.5911475119980567844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> When did each of Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada first appear? For Which Prof. R. J. Zydenbos replied: >Tamil: earliest dated inscription 270 CE >Kannada: earliest inscription ca. 450 CE >Telugu: earliest inscription 633 CE >Malayalam will be later. In the last 15 years or so, many short Tamil Brahmi inscriptions have been found belonging to first century BC and first century AD. Two recent articles are relevent here. I heard that Dr. I. Mahadevan is writing a book on early tamil epigraphy. 1) Iravatham Mahadevan, Recent trends in early Tamil epigraphy: An overview, Jl. of the Institute of Asian Studies, Madras, p. 1-32, XIII, 1, Sep. 1995. 2) Iravatham Mahadevan, Ancient Tamil contacts abroad: Recent epigraphical evidence, Jl. of the Institute of Asian Studies, Madras, p. 136-155, XII, 1, Sep. 1994. (Earlier delivered as Father X. S. Thani Nayagam Memorial Lecture, Colombo, Sri Lanka, 1994) Tamil has one of the largest number of inscriptions in any Indian language, if not the most. Very many remain unpublished languishing in ASI offices. An illustrious example. Rajendra Chola I's Karandai tamil sangam copper plate inscriptions in Tamil from early 11th century is the longest inscription in the entire medieval world, I was informed. For that copper plate inscription, See: Rajendra Chola (d. 1044 CE) Karandai Tamil Sangam plates of Rajendra Chola I. Editor: K. G. Krishnan, N. Delhi, Archaeological Survey Of India, 1984, 312 p. It was the dissertation research material in 1968 by Prof. George W. Spencer, Dept. of History, See his dissertation: Royal leadership and imperial conquest in medieval South Indua: the naval expedition of Rajendra Chola I, c. 1025 AD, Univ. California, Berkeley, 1968 Regards, N. Ganesan From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Mon Feb 9 10:19:35 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 12:19:35 +0200 Subject: Curry Message-ID: <161227035559.23782.18135825688935844076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the role of Portuguese in the history of curry I think the old and often forgotten, though very useful, dictionary of Dalgado, Glossario Luso- Asiatico, should be consulted. Unfortunately, I have not a copy at hand. Klaus Karttunen From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Mon Feb 9 21:43:43 1998 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 13:43:43 -0800 Subject: Oriental Institute, Thane Message-ID: <161227035574.23782.12183223917856533882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following message is going also to the BUDDHA-L list. If any of you wish to circulate it on the remaining relevant lists, please feel free to do so. ------- Many of you may not know that for the last several years an institution run with much dedication and systematic planning is functioning at Thane, Mumbai/Bombay. It is Oriental Institute, M. Karve Path, Naupada, Thane 400 602. The institute holds regular discussion sessions and seminars (with seminar dates publicised almost a year in advance and attracting scholars from as many parts of the world). It arranges tours of historically important sites for its members (with one site chosen per year and studied through lectures and research literature by members prior to visiting, as I understand) and publishes a periodical (newsletter and journal combination, as far as the issues I have seen go) titled_ Itihas Patrika_. It has also created a library consisting of about 15,000 vols. related to Indian culture and Sanskrit language and collected about 3,000 Sanskrit manuscripts(paper), mostly related to rituals. On 26 December 1997, I participated in the second session of the Brihan Maharashtra Prachya Vidya Parishad (= Greater Maharashtra Oriental Conference) organized by the Oriental Institute. At least 200 delegates must have been in attendance. The conference was a model of careful planning. As one would expect in such a gathering, the papers presented -- most of them in Marathi and Sanskrit -- were of uneven quality, but every effort was made to ensure that truly informative abstracts were distributed beforehand and that the papers were read at the announced time at the specified place. The speakers chosen for the plenary sessions presented very useful surveys of research and recent developments in their respective fields. I was rather sorry for having to miss the next two days of the conference on account of a promised seminar participation in Calcutta. As far as my information goes, the credit for the success of the Oriental Institute largely belongs to Dr. Vijay V. Bedekar, a busy medical doctor running a family hospital who pursues the study of Indian culture as a side activity, and to the group of dedicated volunteers that has gathered around Dr. Bedekar over the years. (The Bedekar family is also responsible for an arts, commerce and engineering college, on the campus of which the BMPVP meeting was held and which was the cleanest campus I have seen in my recent visits to India.) In my exchanges with him, Dr. Bedekar mentioned one acute need of the Oriental Institute -- access to scholarly journals in Oriental Studies, particularly in Indology, published outside India. Because the cost of subscription to such journals is high and because the Indian rupee has undergone so much devaluation in the last few decades, the Institute cannot carry out its goal of informing its members about recent Indological research in as comprehensive a manner as possible. .Thaa.ne (Skt Sthaana, Sthaanaka) is a very old town in Indian history. Some important archaelogical discoveries are being made around it, but I am sure there is much scope for further work. Most of Thane city itself at present is unattractive. Chemical industries have brought much pollution to it. The Oriental Institute reminded me of the Dhamma-pada verse yathaa sa.mkaara-dhaanasmi.m ujjhitasmi.m mahaa-pathe / paduma.m tattha jaayeta suci-gandha.m manoramam //. Whatever the Indologists and Orientalists (the latter term has no negative connotation in my usage) can do to help the Thane citizens in becoming historically better informed would be a good investment in my view. The declining standard, in India, of research on pre-modern India makes it all the more necessary that the libraries of institutions such as the Thane Oriental Institute be helped to build good collections. Periodical exchange arrangements, donations of old issues of non-Indian journals,and subscribing to one or two non-Indian Indological journals on behalf of the Institute are some of the ways in which the goal of a good library can be realised. I would appeal to you to help along these lines. If applicable, consider it a repayment for the hospitality you received from ordinary Indians on your last visit to India. Maybe, you could take a suitcase full of publications you no longer need in your library when you visit India next time and donate it to the Oriental Institute. If you have publications to contribute, please use the address given above. Dr. Bedekar can also be contacted by e-mail on . Thanks. -- ashok aklujkar From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Feb 9 20:32:16 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 15:32:16 -0500 Subject: more on vada / vadin Message-ID: <161227035569.23782.5976200546378435620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sasaki Shizuka, who started me on this vada/vadin business, took the trouble to look up some texts, and what he found (and me too, subsequently) is very interesting. What is most interesting is that the Abhidharmakosabhasya p. 296, for example, and the Abhidharmadipa (I forgot to note the reference, but the edition of Jaini is well indexed) us the word Sarvastivada in the plural! This must mean "followers of the Sarvastivada school." Of course, Sarvastivadin is also used in the plural (and singular), again in the sense of follower. Sasaki also refers to Pali materials such as Dipavamsa 5.47 and Kathavatthu-atthakatha p. 44, not available to me, for plural sarvastivada. Do not these uses suggest that -vada here means followers? (And perhaps the term sarvastivada should be a bahuvrihi?!) Finally, although of course this is much less relevant than consideration of the original texts, Kellner has written about Frauwallner, but it seems to me his usage is at best ambiguous. See "Studies in Abhidharma Literature and the Origins of Buddhist Philosophical Systems" (SUNY 1995): 20: The Dharmaskandha ... can ... be regarded as the Sarvastivadin's earliest Abhidharma work .... 130: There is only one other school besided the Sarvastivadin .... the picture given by the Abhidharma of the Sarvastivadin. Comments welcome! Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Feb 9 20:51:40 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 15:51:40 -0500 Subject: looking for a Sinologist Message-ID: <161227035571.23782.18368394762929215312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Non-Indological -sorry! Anyone know the: Email/Snail mail of Thomas Thilo, Sinologist in Berlin? thanks, jonathan Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 10 00:08:31 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 16:08:31 -0800 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035576.23782.11702673187051705951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote: [message about B. inscription at Ninnaur snipped] > And something completely different: > > I was surprised (given the metaphore) to read in some translation > of azoka's edicts he styled himself deevaanaaMpriya. What's the earliest > attested metaphorical use? According to what I read some time ago, the epithet "devanaampiya" was used by Ashoka's predecessors (namely, grandpa Chandragupta) and that Ashoka merely retained the name in his inscriptions. I think scholars initially thought that "devanaampiya" was a personal name, but after discovering inscriptions pre-dating Ashoka they believed it to only be an epithet. I'll dig up the text in which I read this and confirm/deny my statements. Dr. Richard Salomon would surely know. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 01:48:54 1998 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 20:48:54 -0500 Subject: FREE Tamil Character Phonetic Dependencies Yarzhan Tamil Editor Message-ID: <161227035581.23782.12349088445858413119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TAMIL WORD PROCESS MADE EASY - FREE 247 Tamil Letters with only 26 keys of the QWERTY Keyboard. Character Phonetic Dependencies Yarzhan Thamizh Editor. Technical Solutions has developed a proprietary technology which it intends to license to software publishers and electronic typewriter manufacturers. "Character Phonetic Dependencies" allow typing in both English and certain foreign languages with a simple keyboard translation technique using a standard QWERTY keyboard. Desktop publishing software is being developed for a variety of languages. A Windows-based editor is currently available for the Tamil language (an Indian dialect). An invention born from neccessity. R. Shanmugalingam ("Shan") originated the concept in 1993. "I could not find Tamil software that was easy to use. All of the Tamil fonts that I found removed most of the punctuation needed to write even a simple letter. In order to represent a single character, some of the fonts required four keystrokes." No need to use confusing key combinations. Current methods of keyboard translation provide a direct "one-to-one" translation of a keystroke to a character. Since the standard QWERTY keyboard provides only enough keys for the English language, additional "function keys" are usually used to allow a multiplicity of foreign characters on one English character key. Due to the richness of some languages, this may produce as many as four characters represented on one key. This requires the user to search frantically for the correct key combination, delaying the task at hand (i.e., writing a document). These methods do not consider the rules of grammar associated with the languages. In all languages, letters and letter combinations produce phonetic sounds (phonemes). Some languages use two or more letter combinations to produce a unique single letter. By using the phonetic dependencies, the unique character may be produced automatically. The technology may be embedded into PC software and electronic typewriter keyboards. Software publishers would use the technology as a keyboard device driver. Electronic typewriter manufacturers would implement the technology as microcode contained in integrated circuits (ICs) in electronic keyboards. Shan recently traveled to India to demonstrate the software to dignitaries and professional associations. The Yarzhan Thamizh Editor product received great accolades. Visit Yarzhan Thamizh Editor Home Page at URL: . Download CPDYTE for FREE. Enjoy simple Tamil document writing without the drudgery of multi key use for one single Tamil letter. Thanks. R. Shanmugalingam From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 9 15:58:07 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 20:58:07 +0500 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <34DEBED1.9A@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227035565.23782.12853633590740630577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:31 AM 2/9/98 +0100, you wrote: >DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > >> >A. K. Ramanujan once told me Koel is from tamil kuyil. >> >He uses the word Koel in his translations from Tamil too. >> >> Saying that all these words are from Tamil only may not be correct. >> For example Koel can be from telugu "koyila". Telugu word is much >> closer than "kuyil". > > >Both forms and all the related names for the Koel or Eudynamis >scolopaceus (Linn.) in modern Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages are of >course derived from Sanskrit kokila, Prakrit kOila, *kOyila. > >Regards, > >Erik Seldeslachts >Universiteit Gent >Belgium > > You are absolutely right. But here we are interested in how "kOel" entered English. That I do not think is from sanskrit or prAkrit. It can be from telugu "kOyila" or from north indian languages like Hindi which have the word "kOyal". regards, sarma. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Mon Feb 9 21:12:58 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 22:12:58 +0100 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) Message-ID: <161227035572.23782.18250393437410494696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can you tell me what the earliest attested use of brahmi is? I've always thought the earliest specimens of brahmi writing were azoka's. But last December someone posted an article from the "MP Chronicle" where I've found: "Archaeologists discover remains of temple in Sehore [...] A 6th century BC punch mark coin with an elephant and inscription in Brahmi on one side and svastika and Ujjaini signs and tree on the reverse was found at Ninnaur" And something completely different: I was surprised (given the metaphore) to read in some translation of azoka's edicts he styled himself deevaanaaMpriya. What's the earliest attested metaphorical use? From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 10 06:25:31 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 22:25:31 -0800 Subject: devaanaampriya? (was Re: something else) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035589.23782.8669976620647724111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >But this is not the earliest reference available. I have seen it > >in the Maitrayanisamhita (although written as two distinct words > >in von Schroeder's edition). > > But then since this connotation is so old, how come azoka (and per > Anshuman's post candragupta) were not worried people would chuckle? :) On another side note; The curious thing is, and as inscriptions at Jaugada, Shahbazgarhi, etc. show, Ashoka continued to use the epithet even after his 'conversion' to Buddhism. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Tue Feb 10 00:00:25 1998 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 01:00:25 +0100 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035578.23782.14067745925229224514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > And something completely different: > > I was surprised (given the metaphore) to read in some translation of > azoka's edicts he styled himself deevaanaaMpriya. What's the > earliest attested metaphorical use? Perhaps Katyayana (the grammarian) in a varttika to .sa.s.thyaa aakro"se (6.3.20 in Pathak/Chitrao's Sutrapatha) Katyayana adds: devaanaampriya iti ca. (This seems to give an abusive sense.) But this is not the earliest reference available. I have seen it in the Maitrayanisamhita (although written as two distinct words in von Schroeder's edition). Peter Wyzlic From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Feb 10 05:16:32 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 06:16:32 +0100 Subject: devaanaampriya? (was Re: something else) Message-ID: <161227035587.23782.13403911372035281533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Wyzlic wrote: >> I was surprised (given the metaphore) to read in some translation of >> azoka's edicts he styled himself deevaanaaMpriya. What's the >> earliest attested metaphorical use? > >Perhaps Katyayana (the grammarian) in a varttika to > .sa.s.thyaa aakro"se (6.3.20 in Pathak/Chitrao's Sutrapatha) >Katyayana adds: devaanaampriya iti ca. (This seems to give an >abusive sense.) > >But this is not the earliest reference available. I have seen it >in the Maitrayanisamhita (although written as two distinct words >in von Schroeder's edition). But then since this connotation is so old, how come azoka (and per Anshuman's post candragupta) were not worried people would chuckle? :) Btw, does anyone know of any other Indian rulers (besides the maurya) who ignored the meaning of fool and called themselves that? From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 10 17:13:26 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:13:26 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035603.23782.11444941177558721030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A very convincing derivation of Tamil arici etc.. has been given by Franklin Southworth in "Proto Dravidian Plant Names" (I do not recall the exact title of the paper) printed in the Walter A Fairservis Jr. Festschrift, edited by Greg Possehl. ---"Dominique.Thillaud" wrote: > > >>I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but also in > >>other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). > > 'a' --> Gr. 'o' is incredible. > We know in ancient Greek two words for the rice: > o'ruza is considered as borrowed from eastern iranian (see afgan vriZE) > ori'ndEs is considered as borrowed from western iranian (see persan birinj) > (for "wr" --> Gr. "or", see Schwyzer, Gr.Gr. 1,313, n.2) > Both are probably related to the vedic vrIhi'. > The first greek word give Latin oryza --> Italian rizo and all > other western names. > A long time before the Indo-Portuguese ... > It's highly probable that vriZE, birinj, vrIhi are not Eurindian > but loan words (rice is an eastern plant), nevertheless a link with Tamil > arici seems phonetically curious. > Regards, > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Tue Feb 10 08:52:09 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:52:09 +0100 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) Message-ID: <161227035591.23782.15276600103805324533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: > I was surprised (given the metaphore) to read in some translation > of azoka's edicts he styled himself deevaanaaMpriya. What's the earliest > attested metaphorical use? Deva in devAnAMpriya is used in the meaning of 'king'. In fact, devAnAMpriya seems to be a translation of the Hellenistic title filos tOn basileOn 'friend of the kings', applied to highly placed vassals. This might have important implications for the interpretation of the relationship between the Mauryas and the Seleucids: see SCHARFE, Hartmut, The Maurya dynasty and the Seleucids, Zeitschrift fuer vergleichende Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der indogermanischen Sprachen 85 (1971): 211-225. Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Belgium From hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 10 18:00:02 1998 From: hindimcs at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Michael Shapiro) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 10:00:02 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <19980210171326.7234.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227035605.23782.15993459370661702045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suspect the paper in question is "Cereals in South Asian Prehistory: the Linguistic Evidence." It appeared in ECOLOGICAL BACKGROUNDS OF SOUTH ASIA PREHISTORY, edited by K.A.R. Kennedy and G. L. Possehl, Ithaca, N.Y. South Asia Program, Cornell University, 1975. Southworth also treats the same topic in "Lexical evidence for early contact between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian," (Madhav M. Deshpande and Peter Edwin Hook [eds.], ARYAN AND NON-ARYAN IN INDIA, Michigan Papers of South and Southeast Asia, 1978, pp. 205, and 222). Professor Krishnamurti has pointed out that there are some chronological problems with the proto-Dravidian/IE connection for the 'rice etymology'. To this I should add that Southworth (at least in the 1978 paper; I haven't seen the 1975 one) adds a Munda factor into the equation. Southworth gets his Munda data from a 1973 paper by Arlene and Norman Zide ("Semantic Reconstructions in Proto-Munda Cultural Vocabulary 1, Journal of the Linguistics Society of India, 34:1). What all of this points to is the difficulty of making unequivocal statements about the Dravidian origins of the "rice" morpheme. It is a very interesting case and the Dravidian data are very suggestive, but not 100% conclusive. As is the case with words for many food and agricultural items, ultimate origins are very hard to pin down. ============================================================================= Michael C. Shapiro Phone: (206) 543-4996 Dept. Asian Languages & Literature Fax: (206) 685-4268 University of Washington hindimcs at u.washington.edu Mail Box 353521 Seattle, WA 98195-3521 ============================================================================= On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > A very convincing derivation of Tamil arici etc.. has been given by > Franklin Southworth in "Proto Dravidian Plant Names" (I do not recall > the exact title of the paper) printed in the Walter A Fairservis Jr. > Festschrift, edited by Greg Possehl. > > > > > > ---"Dominique.Thillaud" wrote: > > > > >>I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but > also in > > >>other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). > > > > 'a' --> Gr. 'o' is incredible. > > We know in ancient Greek two words for the rice: > > o'ruza is considered as borrowed from eastern iranian (see afgan > vriZE) > > ori'ndEs is considered as borrowed from western iranian (see persan > birinj) > > (for "wr" --> Gr. "or", see Schwyzer, Gr.Gr. 1,313, n.2) > > Both are probably related to the vedic vrIhi'. > > The first greek word give Latin oryza --> Italian rizo and all > > other western names. > > A long time before the Indo-Portuguese ... > > It's highly probable that vriZE, birinj, vrIhi are not > Eurindian > > but loan words (rice is an eastern plant), nevertheless a link with > Tamil > > arici seems phonetically curious. > > Regards, > > Dominique > > > > Dominique THILLAUD > > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > > > == > Lakshmi Srinivas > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 10 05:13:29 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 10:13:29 +0500 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035584.23782.16537127350417856803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:12 PM 2/9/98 +0100, you wrote: >Can you tell me what the earliest attested use of brahmi is? > >I've always thought the earliest specimens of brahmi writing >were azoka's. But last December someone posted an article from the >"MP Chronicle" where I've found: "Archaeologists discover remains >of temple in Sehore [...] A 6th century BC punch mark coin with an >elephant and inscription in Brahmi on one side and svastika and Ujjaini >signs and tree on the reverse was found at Ninnaur" > > > > >And something completely different: > >I was surprised (given the metaphore) to read in some translation >of azoka's edicts he styled himself deevaanaaMpriya. What's the earliest >attested metaphorical use? > > It was a practice of that age. Alexander considered himself to be the son of a greek god. Darius I claimed that he was favoured by gods. The grandfather Asoka was Chadragupta who was a contemporary of Alexander, knew about the Alexander legend. In addition we have "na aviSnuH prithvIpatiH". So it is no wonder that Asoka claimed himself to be dEvAnAmpiya. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 10 05:31:32 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 10:31:32 +0500 Subject: more on vada / vadin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035585.23782.11011863865985814958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:32 PM 2/9/98 -0500, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Do not these uses suggest that -vada here means followers? (And >perhaps the term sarvastivada should be a bahuvrihi?!) > But the plural can also refer to different flavours or sects of sarvAstivAda. I think full sentences should be analysed paying respect to context before drawing conclusions. regards, sarma. From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Tue Feb 10 09:51:28 1998 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 10:51:28 +0100 Subject: indrAdayaH surAH Message-ID: <161227035592.23782.14936244680545518920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Indologists, > I've found in MMW dictionary, under Adi, the syntagm indrAdayaH >surAH (without any reference). But it seems to me that, in the Rg veda, the >lists of Gods begin more frequently by vAyu than by indra. Even in the >mahAbhArata, arjuna is a third son. What could be a list of Gods begining >by indra? it's a canonical gaNa? from which text? > I'd like to be enlightened. >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France Indra is the LokapAla of the east direction. The directions are generally surveyed starting from the east and clockwise. In Tantric ritual texts one often sees the expression indrAdI"sAnaparyantam meaning "from east to north-east" (ex. AjitAgama XXIX.195). In this way indrAdayaH surAH may be the LokapAla-s. Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From thillaud at UNICE.FR Tue Feb 10 09:58:56 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 10:58:56 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <01ITDDXLJ56Q004JRZ@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035598.23782.6074369929961982268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but also in >>other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). 'a' --> Gr. 'o' is incredible. We know in ancient Greek two words for the rice: o'ruza is considered as borrowed from eastern iranian (see afgan vriZE) ori'ndEs is considered as borrowed from western iranian (see persan birinj) (for "wr" --> Gr. "or", see Schwyzer, Gr.Gr. 1,313, n.2) Both are probably related to the vedic vrIhi'. The first greek word give Latin oryza --> Italian rizo and all other western names. A long time before the Indo-Portuguese ... It's highly probable that vriZE, birinj, vrIhi are not Eurindian but loan words (rice is an eastern plant), nevertheless a link with Tamil arici seems phonetically curious. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Feb 10 10:13:14 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 11:13:14 +0100 Subject: devaanaampriya? (was Re: something else) Message-ID: <161227035594.23782.13363639301484199730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >But then since this connotation is so old, how come azoka (and per >Anshuman's post candragupta) were not worried people would chuckle? :) May I call attention to the following verse from the Ramayana (I.1.16): aarya.h sarvasa/scaiva sadaiva priyadar/sana.h "the Aryan is the same to all and always of a friendly countenance [agreeable to look at]" Here there is no trace of a negative sense. I would suggest that the use of priyadar/sin in a negative sense may be ironical. Whether it is positive or negative may depend upon context or upon inflection of voice. Compare similar uses of basically positive expressions in Western languages, such as "You are really something" (used as a reproach). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Feb 10 10:19:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 11:19:50 +0100 Subject: devanampriya - priyadarsin Message-ID: <161227035596.23782.17175232430276669394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please disregard my last message. Somehow, I confused devanampriya and priyadarshin, rather missing the contents of the question! (My mind seems to be working by Freudian association right now!). However, the use devanampriya in a negative sense may still be ironic. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Feb 10 00:49:27 1998 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 11:49:27 +1100 Subject: Jain (Deva)nagari font? Message-ID: <161227035580.23782.15961920797463994603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of an existing font (PC or Mac) for Jain (Deva)nagari? Before I go to the trouble of devising one for myself (probably using Fontographer) I'm hoping someone has already done it. Royce Wiles From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 10 19:52:35 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 11:52:35 -0800 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035610.23782.5963906516932119393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The idea that Asoka's inscriptions are the earliest in Brahmi is accepted by some, but not all. Still a matter of some controversy. I would refer you to Harry Falk's Schrift im alten Indien (Tu:bingen 1993); he makes strong arguments against dating any inscriptions or other Brahmi documents earlier than Asoka. The reference to inscribed coins of the 6th century BC strikes me as highly unlikely; early Indian coins are generally difficult to date, but could hardly be that early. Inscribed potsherds from Sri Lanka, allegedly of pre-Asokan date, remain controversial. I would summarize the matter by saying that the earliest definitely datable documents in Brahmi are Asokan inscriptions; it is possible, but as yet unproven and somewhat doubtful, that some other inscriptions are earlier. Many older books (e.g. Bu:hlers Origin and Development of the Indian Brahma Alphabet) talk confidently about early (pre-Mauryan) forms and examples of Brahmi, but all of these have now been thrown into doubt by Falk's authoriative work. R. Salomon On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > No one has answered my brahmi question, so I'm asking again. > Is it or is it not accepted that azoka's inscriptions are > the earliest extant in brahmi? > > If it is, what is that mention in an article posted here of > _sixth_ (6th) century BC coins carrying a brahmi inscription? > Just a typo? > From agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 10 21:19:12 1998 From: agriffit at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 16:19:12 -0500 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035612.23782.10277010316888090909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe this is not generally accepted, or at least should now be be considered sceptically, as excavations on Sri Lanka (Anuradhapura; cf. Allchin's reference in his 1995 book on Early Historical Urbanization in South Asia) seem to have yielded (I am not sure whether there were radiocarbon dates) sherds with Brahmi letters scratched on to them, from about the 4th or 5th centruries BC. Again, I am not 100% sure about this. Arlo Griffiths On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > No one has answered my brahmi question, so I'm asking again. > Is it or is it not accepted that azoka's inscriptions are > the earliest extant in brahmi? > > If it is, what is that mention in an article posted here of > _sixth_ (6th) century BC coins carrying a brahmi inscription? > Just a typo? > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 11 02:53:48 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 18:53:48 -0800 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035614.23782.8982963099565949341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those list members still interested in this topic, the latest information says that Sri Santananda Sarasvati passed away in December 1997, and Sri Vasudevananda Sarasvati is his current successor. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Feb 10 19:10:53 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:10:53 +0100 Subject: devaanaamp.? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) Message-ID: <161227035606.23782.16745832328905190551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Eric Seldeslachts wrote: >Deva in devAnAMpriya is used in the meaning of 'king'. In fact, >devAnAMpriya seems to be a translation of the Hellenistic title filos >tOn basileOn 'friend of the kings', applied to highly placed vassals. >This might have important implications for the interpretation of the >relationship between the Mauryas and the Seleucids: see SCHARFE, >Hartmut, The Maurya dynasty and the Seleucids, Zeitschrift fuer >vergleichende Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der indogermanischen >Sprachen 85 (1971): 211-225. Does Scharfe really suggest azoka may have considered himself "philos" of the Seleucid "basileus"? (i.e. a vassal). Was "devaanaampiya" (either translated or transcribed, cf "piodassEs") used in azoka's Greek inscriptions? From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Feb 10 19:34:00 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:34:00 +0100 Subject: brahmi? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) Message-ID: <161227035608.23782.8114368766759205881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No one has answered my brahmi question, so I'm asking again. Is it or is it not accepted that azoka's inscriptions are the earliest extant in brahmi? If it is, what is that mention in an article posted here of _sixth_ (6th) century BC coins carrying a brahmi inscription? Just a typo? From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 10 16:48:34 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 21:48:34 +0500 Subject: C-DAC's software in public domain Message-ID: <161227035599.23782.3253015517425012773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From telusa (telugu sahityam) listserv "Yesterday, C-DAC announced the public-domain release of two of it's Indian language word processing software. I have seen one of these, called LEAP-Lite, when i was in India recently. The telugu font that comes with it is the best that i have seen so far. see http://www.cdac.org.in/download/gist/disclaim.htm for further details" regards, sarma. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 10 17:11:39 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 22:11:39 +0500 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035601.23782.11749217732526223090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:58 10/02/98 +0100, you wrote: >>>I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but also in >>>other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). > > 'a' --> Gr. 'o' is incredible. > We know in ancient Greek two words for the rice: >o'ruza is considered as borrowed from eastern iranian (see afgan vriZE) >ori'ndEs is considered as borrowed from western iranian (see persan birinj) >(for "wr" --> Gr. "or", see Schwyzer, Gr.Gr. 1,313, n.2) > Both are probably related to the vedic vrIhi'. > The first greek word give Latin oryza --> Italian rizo and all >other western names. > A long time before the Indo-Portuguese ... > It's highly probable that vriZE, birinj, vrIhi are not Eurindian >but loan words (rice is an eastern plant), nevertheless a link with Tamil >arici seems phonetically curious. > Regards, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > I have recently submitted a paper on Dravidian languages in an Encyclopaedia, in which i mentioned the following: 'Robert Caldwell and other scholars have mentioned several words from Greek, Latin and Hebrew as being Dravidian in origin. The authenticity of many of these has been disputed. At least, two items seem plausible:(1) Greek oruza/oryza/orynda "rice" which must be compared with Proto-Dravidian *war-inci (Tamil-Malayalam-Telugu wari, Parji verci(l), Gadaba varci(l), Gondi wanji "rice, paddy" [DED 5265]) and not with Tamil arisi (South Dravidian *ariki) as proposed by Caldwell. Old Persian virinza and Sanskrit vri:hi "rice" which have no Indo-European etymology pose a problem in dating the borrowing from Dravidian, (2) Greek ziggiberis /zingiberis "ginger" from South Dravidian nominal compound *cinki-we:r ( Proto-Dravidian *we:r "root" ), Pali singi, singivera, Sansrit sRngavera-; Tamil-Malayalam in~ci derived from *cinki (by loss of *c and by changing -ki to -ci after a front vowel). A number of place names of South India cited by the Greeek geographers, Pliny (1st cen.AD) and Ptolemy (3rd cen. AD) end in -our or -oura which is a place name suffix u:r "town" from Proto-Dravidian *u:r (see Etymology 1 in Table2)'. Comments welcome. Bh.K. end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Feb 11 08:42:44 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 09:42:44 +0100 Subject: indrAdayaH surAH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035617.23782.16971148845534288235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Indra is the LokapAla of the east direction. The directions are generally >surveyed starting from the east and clockwise. In Tantric ritual texts one >often sees the expression indrAdI"sAnaparyantam meaning "from east to >north-east" (ex. AjitAgama XXIX.195). In this way indrAdayaH surAH may be >the LokapAla-s. > >Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat Thanks. That seems a good explanation but open an other request. The MMW dictionary (s.v. lokapAla) gives, refering to Mn.V,96, the list: E: indra SE: agni S: yama SW: sUrya W: varuNa NW: pavana or vAyu N: kubera NE: soma or candra and he gives the variants nirRti for SW and IzAnI or pRthivI for NE. This list seems without any structure. How it is theologically explained? I can't believe the choice was randomly made! Best, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Wed Feb 11 09:34:27 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 10:34:27 +0100 Subject: devaanaamp.? (was Re: Origin of Dravidian languages) Message-ID: <161227035616.23782.705323401250645964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: > > Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > > >Deva in devAnAMpriya is used in the meaning of 'king'. In fact, > >devAnAMpriya seems to be a translation of the Hellenistic title filos > >tOn basileOn 'friend of the kings', applied to highly placed vassals. > >This might have important implications for the interpretation of the > >relationship between the Mauryas and the Seleucids: see SCHARFE, > >Hartmut, The Maurya dynasty and the Seleucids, Zeitschrift fuer > >vergleichende Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der indogermanischen > >Sprachen 85 (1971): 211-225. > > Does Scharfe really suggest azoka may have considered himself "philos" > of the Seleucid "basileus"? (i.e. a vassal). He does suggest that Candragupta Maurya became a vassal of Seleukos, considering also that the treaty concluded between them is typically that between a sovereign and a vassal: land is conceded (in casu an enormous territory west of the Indus) in exchange for military assistance (in casu 5OO war elephants with their trainers). That the treaty stayed in vigour in later times can be seen when in 206 BC Antiochus III again received war elephants from SubhAgasena / SophagasEnos. Personally I deem it possible that the Mauryas were both sovereign in their own territory and vassals in the territory conceded to them by the Seleucids. > Was "devaanaampiya" (either translated or transcribed, cf "piodassEs") > used in azoka's Greek inscriptions? I do not know of any such Greek translation or transcription, but in the Aramaic inscriptions of Azoka at Taxila and Kandahar devAnAmpiya is translated with mr'n (marAn), which had been the title of the Achaemenid satraps of Egypt and Judea. This again strengthens the impression that he was a vassal. Regards, Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Belgium From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Feb 11 19:42:59 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 13:42:59 -0600 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035621.23782.6648332054624353000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2/11/98 K. Zvelebil, The Smile of Murugan - On Tamil literature of South India. Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1973 The Chart I in page 9 is reproduced below: ******* *TAMIL* ******* inscriptions literature ********************************************* Early Tamil Brahmi I. The "Urtext" (Damili) of the Tolkaappiyam, ie., inscriptions, the two first sections, 3-1 cent, B.C. EzuttatikAram and (Asokan Brahmi CollatikAram minus later introduced ca. 250 B.C interpolations, ca. 100 B.C. into the Tamil country II. The earliest strata of and adapted between bardic poetry in the 250-200 B.C. to Tamil). so-called CaGkam anthologies, ca. I cent. B.C. - 2 cent. A.D. *************************************************************** ********* *KANNADA* ********* inscriptions literature ****************************************************** ca. 450 A.D. beginnings in the 6-7 cent. A.D. (lost) Nrpatunga's Kaviraajamaarga (ca.850 A.D.) ******************************************************** ******* *TELUGU* ******* inscriptions literature ******************************************************** ca. 633 A.D. beginnings in te 7-9 cent. A.D. (lost) Nannayya's translation of the Mahabharata (11 Cent.) ********************************************************** *********** *Malayalam* *********** inscriptions literature ********************************************************** close of 9. cent. Raamacaritam (Kottayam plates of of Ciiraaman Sthaanu Ravi), (13-14. cent. A.D.) Chokur inscriptions, Unnuniili Sandesam ca. 925 AD. (anon.), 14. Cent. A.D.) *********************************************************** Regards, N. Ganesan From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Wed Feb 11 16:19:50 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 17:19:50 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035619.23782.10639551554263407928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > ---"Dominique.Thillaud" wrote: > > > > >>I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but > also in > > >>other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). > > > > 'a' --> Gr. 'o' is incredible. > > We know in ancient Greek two words for the rice: > > o'ruza is considered as borrowed from eastern iranian (see afgan > vriZE) > > ori'ndEs is considered as borrowed from western iranian (see persan > birinj) > > (for "wr" --> Gr. "or", see Schwyzer, Gr.Gr. 1,313, n.2) > > Both are probably related to the vedic vrIhi'. > > The first greek word give Latin oryza --> Italian rizo and all > > other western names. > > A long time before the Indo-Portuguese ... > > It's highly probable that vriZE, birinj, vrIhi are not > Eurindian > > but loan words (rice is an eastern plant), nevertheless a link with > Tamil > > arici seems phonetically curious. The statement "'a' --> Gr. 'o' is incredible" is not correct; in fact it is rather frequent. However, that does not mean that this rule applies in this case: oryza is not from arici. Your derivation from Iranian is probably the right one. Arici itself is probably a loanword from early Indo-Aryan *vrIjhi (p vrIhi). There are some names for 'rye' in European languages which suggest a possible Indo-European connection: Greek briza (from Thracian?), Lithuanian rugiai, German Roggen, Dutch rogge, English rye. Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Belgium From girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM Thu Feb 12 01:50:54 1998 From: girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM (Girish Sharma) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 17:50:54 -0800 Subject: Budha epithet Message-ID: <161227035624.23782.6302384337329540826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an epithet of the graha Budha, piya"ngugulikaabhaasa that seems to mean the "One with the appearance of balls of priya"ngu." According to Apte's Sankrit dictionary priya"ngu is a kind of millet. Perhaps "balls" refers to the shape of millet grain. Can someone confirm that priya"ngu grain is green in color? ------------------------------------------------------- Girish Sharma San Diego, CA From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 11 22:51:57 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 17:51:57 -0500 Subject: Oxford University Press in India Message-ID: <161227035622.23782.4338994700618140463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Mueller, Would that it were so. I have never seen OUP eds. of the Greek and Latin classics on sale in India (except perhaps secondhand), much less special versions for the Indian market. Unfortunately there is practically no interest or study of the Western Classics in India, except perhaps in Christian colleges for the sake of studying the Greek New Testament and church history and theology. But I suspect that this also is greatly reduced nowadays. So separate eds. for the South Asian market would scarcely be worth OUP's while, and they might find their way back to the West to undermine its full-cost market there. However, this raises an interesting historical question. Has any research been done on the study of Greek and Latin in colonial and post-colonial South Asia? They must have been taught at a great many schools and colleges in India for the sake of the ICS examinations, but I have seen nothing about the subject. Allen Thrasher From gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN Thu Feb 12 02:50:56 1998 From: gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN (K V N Gopal) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 08:20:56 +0530 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <19980210171326.7234.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227035626.23782.11750560467679253378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > A very convincing derivation of Tamil arici etc.. has been given by > Franklin Southworth in "Proto Dravidian Plant Names" (I do not recall > the exact title of the paper) printed in the Walter A Fairservis Jr. > Festschrift, edited by Greg Possehl. > > Lakshmi Srinivas > A good discussion on the etymological roots of the word can also be found in R.Swamintha Aiyer's 'Dravidian Theories' and S. Vaiyapuri Pillai's 'History of Tamil Literature'. -gopal From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Thu Feb 12 13:35:34 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 08:35:34 -0500 Subject: Oxford University Press in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035631.23782.2512200765633499987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen W Thrasher writes: > However, this raises an interesting historical question. Has any research > been done on the study of Greek and Latin in colonial and post-colonial > South Asia? They must have been taught at a great many schools and > colleges in India for the sake of the ICS examinations, but I have seen > nothing about the subject. Even the Central Board of Secondary Education, which offers the largest number of choices in languages for high school students, including Tibetan, does not offer Latin or Greek. I have not heard of such courses even in the Madras University. In general, humanities studies get little attention because they are not very remunerative. Sad, but true. I guess after the British left India, no one would have bothered about the classical European Languages. Rama. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Feb 12 15:14:27 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 09:14:27 -0600 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035633.23782.2188515010998954327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Most ancient Texts in Tamil ***************************** The following is an extract (Chart IV, p. 42-43) from the book "The Smile of Murugan" by Prof. Kamil Zvelebil on the most ancient texts in the Tamil language (Kamil Zvelebil, The Smile of Murugan - On Tamil literature of South India,E.J.Brill, Leiden, The Netherlands, 1973).The earliest poems contained in these texts belong roughly to 100 B.C.- 250 A.D. The upper limit for these anthologies is the 5th-6th Cent. A.D. Linguistically, this period is usually described as Early Old Tamil. At the beginning of this period, we have the Ur-text of the Tolkappiyam. At the end of this period, we have the earliest poetics of Tamil, the Akapporul of Iraiyanar. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Text Details Approx. date ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Early Tamil Brahmi The two rock-inscriptions of 3rd -1st Inscriptions. Netunceliyan at Mangulam. Cent. B.C. Asoka's Brahmi introduced around ca. 250 B.C. into the Tamil country. Adapted between 250-220 to Tamil. Ur-Tolkappiyum: First standardization of the 2nd-1st . Eluttatikaram and Tamil language; the first Cent. B.C Collatikaram minus literary norm of Maturai later interpolations. between ca. 200-50 B.C., based on oral bardic liter- ature, pre-literary tradi- tions and "pre-Sangam" lit- erature of ca 250-150 B.C. The earliest strata of Earliest "Sangam" poets: 1st Cent. B.C. extant Tamil literature Ammuvan (Ak. 10, 35, 140 etc. - 2nd A.D. in the Anthologies: Aink. 101-102, Kur. 49,125, early poems of 163 etc.; Nar. 4, 35 etc.) Ainkurunuru,Kuruntokai, Otalantai (Aink. 301-400, and Narrinai,prob.also Kur. 12, 21, 329), Orampoki purananuru and (Ak. 286, 316, Aink. 1-100 Akananuru Kur. 10, 70, 122 etc.,Nar. 20, 360, Pur. 284), Kapilar the Elder (Aink. 201-300 etc. Peyan (Aink. 401-500 etc.). Arikamedu graffiti and 1st-2nd Cent. the related group of Tamil A.D. Brahmi Inscriptions at Anaimalai etc. The Satavahana bilingual Ca. 150-200. coin. A.D The earliest strata in Kapilar the Elder, Mutat- 2nd-3rd Cent. the Pattuppattu tamakkanni, Katiyalur A.D. anthology: Uruttiran Kannan. Porunararruppatai, Perumpanarruppatai, Pattinappalai, Kurincippattu. The middle strata of the e.g.Paranar (150-230 A.D.), 2nd-4th Cent. Anthologies: Ainkuru- Nakkirar the First, A.D. nuru, Kuruntokai, Nar- Mankutimarutan. rinai, Patirruppattu, Akananuru, Purananuru, Malaipatukatam, Matu- raikkanci, Netunalvatai. Late Tamil Brahmi Later inscriptions from 3rd-4th Cent. Inscriptions:the Ceral Araccalur, Mamantur etc. A.D. inscriptions at Pukalur etc. Later strata of the e.g. Nagpputanar, 3rd-5th Cent. Anthologies: Nallur Nattattanar. A.D. Patirruppattu, Akananuru, Purananuru, Mullaippattu, Cirupan- arruppatai. Transitional Tamil Brahmi 5th-6th Cent. (Proto-vatteluttu) Inscrip- A.D. tions at Pillaiyarpatti and Tirunatarkunram. Latest strata of the 4th-6th Cent. Anthologies: e.g. A.D. Cirupanarruppatai (?). Iraiyanar's Akapporul. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Thu Feb 12 13:06:37 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 15:06:37 +0200 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035628.23782.14437414119580592778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Feb 98 at 9:45, N. Ganesan wrote: > Date sent: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:45:04 -0600 > Send reply to: Indology > From: "N. Ganesan" > Subject: Re: Tamil words in English > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >>Are rice and tamil 'arici' related? > > >I am sure it is a Tamil loanword appearing not only in English but also in > >other European languages (e.g. Czech ryze via Greek oryza). > > Greetings, Prof. Filipsky. This is not widely known. It is, at least among those interested enough in these things to read what has been written. They key is Greek oryza, which clearly seems to be related to Dravidian arici, though the position of Sanskrit vrIhi is problematic. I think this relationship arici : oryza has been suggested at least as early as the 18th century (in Hallische Missionsberichte) and commonly accepted in the 19th. In the 1920s J. Bloch wrote an article about it, and for scholars of Greek the question has been discussed e.g. in the etymological dictionary of Frisch. I have myself said a few words on this in my India in the Early Greek Literature. Unfortunately I have no references at hand. With best wishes Klaus Karttunen From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Thu Feb 12 13:28:02 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 15:28:02 +0200 Subject: Oxford University Press in India Message-ID: <161227035629.23782.10756934828851223864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 11 Feb 98 at 17:51, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > Would that it were so. I have never seen OUP eds. of the Greek and Latin > classics on sale in India (except perhaps secondhand), much less special > versions for the Indian market. Unfortunately there is practically no interest > or study of the Western Classics in India, except perhaps in Christian > colleges for the sake of studying the Greek New Testament and church > history and theology. But I suspect that this also is greatly reduced > nowadays. Some small interest there is (or was quite recently). In 1980 I visited a bookstore in Bombay and find a very good selection of Greek and Latin texts, mainly in bilingual Loeb editions. I bought myself the three volume edition of De natura animalium by Aelian. > So separate eds. for the South Asian market would scarcely be worth > OUP's while, and they might find their way back to the West to undermine > its full-cost market there. > This is certainly true. > However, this raises an interesting historical question. Has any research > been done on the study of Greek and Latin in colonial and post-colonial > South Asia? They must have been taught at a great many schools and > colleges in India for the sake of the ICS examinations, but I have seen > nothing about the subject. > This is really interesting question and I hope somebody is able to give some light on this. In Sri Lanka the University of Peradeniya still has a Department of Classics teaching Greek and Latin, but how is the situation in India. Klaus Karttunen From gregjay at POI.NET Fri Feb 13 00:15:02 1998 From: gregjay at POI.NET (Greg Jay) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 16:15:02 -0800 Subject: DEAR SIR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035638.23782.10241020101276120135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since you are staying in the Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Math, are you a Gaudiya Vaisnava? If you are not then you are in the wrong place to learn Sanskrit. Aren't there any Sanskrit colleges in Chandigarh? G. Keshava das I am a Westerner and Vaisnava for the last 26 years. I have had extensive dealings with Gaudiya Math. I was a pujari in ISKCON in Vrndavan for some years and have spent about 10 years living in India. I visit India every year with my wife as we have a house in South India, Sri Rangam. Please reply if you want help finding Sanskrit or other teachers. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Feb 12 22:05:19 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 17:05:19 -0500 Subject: Reference in Travancore Arachelogical Series Message-ID: <161227035636.23782.17684075597282213980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tamil Lexicon has a reference from Travancore Arachelogical Series "kotukula cavaiyAriR cUriyan2". Does anybody know the full reference/text where this phrase occurs? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From madhava at CH1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 12 15:52:20 1998 From: madhava at CH1.VSNL.NET.IN (Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 20:52:20 +0500 Subject: DEAR SIR Message-ID: <161227035635.23782.17295063074216490054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TO WHOM IT SO EVER MAY CONCERN Dear Professor, I am very happy to find out you ALL in this world. Its happened suddenly: I was searching on Web information about Sanskrit Studies (this my cordial interest) and got Indology page. CAN ANYBODY GUIDE ME? I would like to explain who I am. My name is Viktor V. Sukliyan (26 years old). I was born in the City of Odessa, Ukraine (former Soviet Union). From my childhood I was very much interested both in Science (Astronomy, Mathematics, Physics) and in Ancient Wisdom (Philosophy, Religion, Ancient Literature and History). To combine the diametrical interests was not easy. I joined Physics Department of Odessa University with specialisation in Astrophysics and Mathematical Physics. Simultaneously I attended evening classes of University in Latin Language, Ancient Greek and Roman Philosophy, History and Literature as well as in Hebrew and Bible Studies. At that time I had not heard anything about Indian Civilisation and its achievements in Sciences and Technology. First I was attracted by Philosophy and Yoga System of Aurobindo Ghosh. Then I started reading Gita, Upanishads etc. It was not clear and I decided to learn Sanskrit. Unfortunately in my country there is not a single course in Sanskrit nowhere. Same situation was in nearby Russia. So I decided to leave for India with purpose to study Sanskrit there. I left my Physics course (completed only two years(4 terms) out of Five-Year Integrated Baccalaureate Masters Degree Course) to fulfil my burning desire to Penetrate in Wisdom of Ancient Indian Scientists and Rishis. Oh, What a great misfortune, I cannot find out in India any Sanskrit course in English medium for foreigners like myself. And also nobody is interested in it. I am here for the last 1.5 years and trying to do on my own, but it is very slow process. I need some guidance and friendly help. Now I appeal to You. Sir, please instruct me, what should I do to quench my thirst for knowledge and wisdom. Sincerely Yours, Viktor V. Sukliyan P.S. I live now in Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math, Sector 20-B, Chandigarh, Punjab, India where I help this organisation with Computing. From Vaidix at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 09:16:11 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 04:16:11 -0500 Subject: DEAR SIR Message-ID: <161227035641.23782.1791303569115174586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Viktor I am an Indian myself, but unfortunately I missed the bus in my childhood and did not learn sanskrit. I plan to learn in future. It is necessary to learn sanskrit, even I am planning to start. But lack of sanskrit knowledge should not stop your progress in your research re: yoga etc. I have been researching into interpretation of vedas and upanisads for practice of meditation and yoga. Some of my latest findings are recorded at http://members.aol.com/vaidix Please visit. I am not finding time to maintain the site or write new stuff, but I can always answer specific questions any time. B. Mallampalli. From Vaidix at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 09:18:22 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 04:18:22 -0500 Subject: DEAR SIR Message-ID: <161227035643.23782.12749307380641486934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for sending personal email. I did not notice the return address is INDOLOGY. B. Mallampalli From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 13 12:36:54 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 04:36:54 -0800 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227035646.23782.7767034702407184185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank all those who answered my question of khyaati theory; all answers were very essential and helpful. Especially I appreciated the reference to Schmithusen's book about Vibhramaviveka. My problem was to know the point of buddhist theories of false cognition AS EXPLAINED IN BUDDHIST SOURCES because I'm not sure of maadhyasthyam of brahmanist philosophers who critisized these theories. Sincerely Yours, Olenev Dmitry. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 13 15:52:10 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 07:52:10 -0800 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227035653.23782.17402812254113001716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As for original texts, I know just one sanskrit text of sceptical wing of lokayata which was published in Choukhamba Sanskrit Series in 1940-s - "Tattvopaplavasi.mha". A detailed information about this text from the book "Perception, Knowledge and Disbelief" by Eli Franco. It was published, if I'm not mistaken, by "Motilal Banarsidass" (Delhi) in 1990. Could You give me more detailed information about the manuscript? Was it published? Does there exist traslation of this text into any european language? All the best! Olenev Dmitry ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > 2/13/98 > > Want to know the titles of texts on Lokayata philosophy in Sanskrit > and other Indian languages. I read that Madhava Vidyaranya's > Sarva Darshana Samgraha has few quotations. Where can I find > Brhaspati's sutras taught to Indra? Is there a complete text > in Sanskrit on Lokayatam? > > The reason I am asking this is because, in Tamil there is late > 11th century/early 12th century vaLamaTal prabandham > by Kaviccakravartti JayamkoNTaar. It is only 550 lines > and expresses Lokayata philosophy. Of course, Buddhist > Manimekalai, Jain Neelakesi and Saiva Siddhanta SivaJaana > Siddhiyaar refutes Lokayata princilpes. A palm leaf mss. > of the Lokayata prabandham is at GOML, Madras. The other > is at Perur Adheenam near Coimbatore. > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Feb 13 14:46:43 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 08:46:43 -0600 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227035652.23782.4373007201088234715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2/13/98 Want to know the titles of texts on Lokayata philosophy in Sanskrit and other Indian languages. I read that Madhava Vidyaranya's Sarva Darshana Samgraha has few quotations. Where can I find Brhaspati's sutras taught to Indra? Is there a complete text in Sanskrit on Lokayatam? The reason I am asking this is because, in Tamil there is late 11th century/early 12th century vaLamaTal prabandham by Kaviccakravartti JayamkoNTaar. It is only 550 lines and expresses Lokayata philosophy. Of course, Buddhist Manimekalai, Jain Neelakesi and Saiva Siddhanta SivaJaana Siddhiyaar refutes Lokayata princilpes. A palm leaf mss. of the Lokayata prabandham is at GOML, Madras. The other is at Perur Adheenam near Coimbatore. Thanks, N. Ganesan From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Fri Feb 13 08:29:29 1998 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 09:29:29 +0100 Subject: indrAdayaH surAH Message-ID: <161227035640.23782.10710502661033726025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Thanks. That seems a good explanation but open an other request. >The MMW dictionary (s.v. lokapAla) gives, refering to Mn.V,96, the list: >E: indra >SE: agni >S: yama >SW: sUrya >W: varuNa >NW: pavana or vAyu >N: kubera >NE: soma or candra >and he gives the variants nirRti for SW and IzAnI or pRthivI for NE. > This list seems without any structure. How it is theologically >explained? I can't believe the choice was randomly made! > Best, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France The theological diagram connecting regions of the world and deities, appears ready-made in Manu and MahAbhArata, and then remains unchanged except for the variants given above. Its origin may be in the Upanishadic meditations (upAsana) on homologies between different levels of entities. The most ancient homology between cardinal points and deities I know is in ChAndogya-Upanishad (prapA.thaka 3), in the context of a metaphor of Sun and honey, sky and beehive, directions and parts of the beehive, gods and mouths eating the nectar etc., with a distribution which is different from the classical one, but could be a fore-runner of it: south: Indra west: Varu.na north: Soma zenith: Brahman The logic of the diagram is the very poetical metaphor. It has to be read in full to be understood and appreciated. Best regards, Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Fri Feb 13 09:31:02 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 10:31:02 +0100 Subject: "Lord of animals" - Bibliography Message-ID: <161227035644.23782.6607116903346408085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! An acquaintance of mine, Professor in Catholic Theology, is looking for references/information about; "Lord of animals" (hope I got the right word in english! in German: Herr der Tiere) in various religions and asked me, if I could tell something about it from Indian context. I only know that "Siva" is known as the Lord of Animals in Hindu mythology, and as a native Telugu, know the story associated with the SreekALahasti (temple). Could the list members please point any books/articles on: Siva as the Lord of Animals. Please send a copy of your reply to the addresses given below too! Thanks in advance! Regards, --Sreenivas P.S. The book: _For the Lord of the Animals_ by Heifetz and NarayanaRao Velcheru is only a translation of a Telugu "Sataka". -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de sparuchuri at hotmail.com PLEASE ADDRESS YOUR PERSONAL MAILS TO BOTH THE ABOVE ADDRESSES From abigger at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH Fri Feb 13 14:07:47 1998 From: abigger at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH (Andreas Bigger) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 15:07:47 +0100 Subject: Postscript Devanagari Font Message-ID: <161227035648.23782.2812496231273985999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I was absent from this list for some time, so please excuse if I ask a question recently asked: I am looking for a Postscript Devanagari Font. Does anyone know of a good font? I would prefer a shareware-font, but I am also able to buy one, if no good shareware-font is available. Only it must be a postscript font and executable under different programms. I know of Wikners TEX-Devanagari-Font, but I believe it is only useful for TEX and not for other programms - or am I wrong in this? I am looking forward to your help! Andreas Bigger, Zurich ------------------------------------------------------------------ Andreas Bigger abigger at indoger.unizh.ch ================================================================== From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Fri Feb 13 14:34:43 1998 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 15:34:43 +0100 Subject: DEAR SIR Message-ID: <161227035650.23782.1892005297507571818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math schrieb: > > TO WHOM IT SO EVER MAY CONCERN Dear Victor I am not a professor but still: I would suggest you to try with the Department for Sanskrit Studies in Poona. The Head of Departement is Prof. Saroja Bhate. I followed two months of Sanskrit courses there. Most of them are teached in English medium, sometimes mingled with Marathi. The level - at least for me - was quite high, but I could arrange some additional private courses with advanced students which helped me a lot. I was not regularly inscribed but paid for my special lessons in accordance with local coustums. Unfortunately I don't have the complete adress here but you can find out from your place I suppose. Good luck! marianna kropf From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Feb 13 23:03:11 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:03:11 -0500 Subject: a Srauta question Message-ID: <161227035660.23782.15293615515878162669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am reading a text which refers to a Kalpa text in 16 adhyAyas beginning with the words athaitasya samAmnAyasya. As far as I know, this is the first sUtra of the ASvalAyana-Srauta-sUtra, but this sutra has only 12 adhyAyas. Does anyone know of another SrautasUtra which begins with the same words and has sixteen adhyAyas? All the best, Madhav Deshpande From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 00:33:25 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 19:33:25 -0500 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035662.23782.15053137621034429626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a book "The Harappan civilization and its writing : a model for the decipherment of the Indus script" (p. 21), Walter Fairservis quotes the results of some research by D. McAlpin, and F. L. Southworth. According to this, "the appearance of etyma identical in meaning in any two branches of Dravidian which can mean they represent proto-Dravidian etyma. This is the conventional way of arriving at proto-Dravidian etyma. As the authors see it, there are four cultural stages which are represented by these proto-forms for which tentative dates can be given based on P. Gardner's scheme of lexicostatistics [P. Gardner, 1980: Lexicostatistics and Dravidian Differentiation in situ. Indian Linguistics 41 (Nos. 3-4): 170-80] PDR-0: SDr/CDr - Brahui C.E. 3000-4100 B.C. PDR-1: SDr/CDr - Kurukh-Malto C.E. 1900-2800 B.C. PDR-2: SDr - CDr (Kolami, Naiki, Parji-) CE. 1100-1500 B.C. PDR-3: SDr I - SDr II (Tamil, Telugu) CE. 900-1000 B.C." Is the inclusion of Tamil in SDr II a printing error? I have only pages 21 and 22. Regards S. Palaniappan From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Fri Feb 13 18:37:25 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 19:37:25 +0100 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227035655.23782.2783066815112503220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Want to know the titles of texts on Lokayata philosophy in Sanskrit >and other Indian languages. I read that Madhava Vidyaranya's >Sarva Darshana Samgraha has few quotations. Where can I find >Brhaspati's sutras taught to Indra? Is there a complete text >in Sanskrit on Lokayatam? I have a vague recollection of having seen a mention of an article by A.L.Basham (who I suppose should be the same as the other one) on the naastika, lookaayata and other caarvaaka somewhere but I can't remember where. If you find it (assuming it really exists:) maybe that could be a a source of sources for you. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Fri Feb 13 19:27:13 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 20:27:13 +0100 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227035657.23782.18155528604026713973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops. I wrote: >>Want to know the titles of texts on Lokayata philosophy in Sanskrit >>and other Indian languages. I read that Madhava Vidyaranya's >>Sarva Darshana Samgraha has few quotations. Where can I find >>Brhaspati's sutras taught to Indra? Is there a complete text >>in Sanskrit on Lokayatam? > >I have a vague recollection of having seen a mention of an article >by A.L.Basham (who I suppose should be the same as the other one) >on the naastika, lookaayata and other caarvaaka somewhere but I can't >remember where. If you find it (assuming it really exists:) maybe >that could be a a source of sources for you. Two important details: it wasn't a paper but a book and it wasn't about the lokaayata but the aajiivika. Wrong extinct sect. Sorry. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 01:34:15 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 20:34:15 -0500 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035664.23782.2482396767015780699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-09 09:59:50 EST, lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes: << In the case of Malayalam, it is perhaps not very accurate to say that the earliest writing dates from ca. 14th century or so. For some reason, these dates seem to applicable to kavya type works in these languages. Prose might however be a different matter. In this context, I would like to draw the list members' attention to the fact that many lost Sanskrit classics viz., kavya, natya and even sastra works (and their commentaries) were uncovered from Kerala. Examples would be manuscripts of Bhasa's dramas etc.. In some cases, commentaries have been found with annotations written in what has traditionally been held to be Tamil. Expert opinion however confirms that these are in what has later come to be known as Malayalam. At least one of these commentaries ('tika') dates from the 12th century or before. >> Can you give some textual examples of this? I am really curious. According to Dr. K. N. Ezhuthachan of The University of Kerala, author of "The history of the grammatical theories in Malayalam", "Even though the West- coast dialect of Tamil had some special characteristics, it seems they were not so pronounced as to become a distinct language until the social and political changes, combined with the geographical factors, made Kerala separate from the Tamil land". The political events which precipitated the development of a separate Malayalam identity were the prolonged Coza-Cera wars of 10-11th centuries which led to considerable social changes. Even Classical Tamil poems contain almost Malayalam-like constructions. In a poem by nakkIrar of Madurai of pANTiya country praising a person of Coza country, (puRa.395) we find the following. ........ pazam cORRup pukavu aruntip putal taLavin2 pUccUTi arip paRaiyAl puL Oppi aviz nellin2 ariyal Aruntu .... nIrkkOzi kUppeyarkkuntu ...... akal aLLal puL irIiyuntu (cORRu = rice, pukavu = food, Aruntu - (will) consume, kUppeyarkkuntu = (will) call, irIiyuntu - (will) leave) According to K. N. Ezhuthachan, even at the time of Lilatilakam, 14th century A.D., the low caste people of Kerala used in their common speech forms like vantAn2 (he came), iruntAn2 (he sat), etc., just as the people east of the Western Ghats did. So he says, "This makes the surmise probable that those phonological and morphological changes which became the characteristic features of KeralabhASA first started in the higher strata of the society and spread gradually to the lower." Apparently temple story-telling was called by the term nampiyAr Tamil. The critical thing was the politico-social identity switch. After all, the best Tamil nationalist poet hailed not from the present Tamilnadu but from present Kerala. iLaGkO aTikaL's epic is infused with a common identity of Tamilness. KulacEkara AzvAr also affirms his Tamil identity. Joseph Kolangaden in "Tamil-Malayalam inter-relations: a linguistic study" in Malayalam Literary Survey, mentions that "Probably with our first eminent satirist, Thola popularising the Chera dialect of Tamil, Tamil-Malayalam distinction became noticeable." He does not give the date for Thola. He also says, "Even as late as the advent of the European missionaries, Lingua Malabarica was not much distinct from Tamil as the Jesuits published from Ambazhakad a series of books which to us today sound more Tamil than Malayalam". (I do not know if these books are really Tamil or Malayalam. Of course, the term Malabar also referred to Tamil as shown by the first grammar of any Indian Language authored by a European, Fr. Henrique Henriques' Arte de Lingua Malabar.) Regards S. Palaniappan From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Feb 13 20:51:07 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 21:51:07 +0100 Subject: JSAWS book: TOC Message-ID: <161227035658.23782.10521013374989954446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am very glad to announce that the printed book *Journal of South Asia Women Studies -- 1995-1997* is available. For the first time an electronic academic journal becomes a hard copy publication. 1st edition, December 1997. ISBN 88-900226-0-4. Pp. XXVII + 244, US$ 27.00 This volume comprises six JSAWS issues (Nov. 1995 - Aug. 1997). You can see and order the book at: http://www.asiatica.org/publications/jsawsbook.asp Contributions by: J. Acharya, C. Brewer, R. Bunwaree-Phukan, S. Chaturvedi, S. Kapadia, E. Garzilli, D. K. and A. Gurung, J. Leslie, T. Nasrin, B. Phukan, H. B. Thakur, R. N. Tripathi, M. Witzel. ********************************************************************* Table of Contents Foreword Introduction Abstract of the Papers * Vol. 1, No. 1 (November 1995)* Note From the Editor A Deb Papers: A Tribute to Mahatma Gandhi: His Views on Women and Social Change, by Sita Kapadia Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable Solution to the Dowry Problem in India, by Subhadra Chaturvedi New Titles: Gender and the Sexes in the Indonesian Archipelago, by L. Summers and W. D. Wilder, eds. (Enrica Garzilli) * Vol. 2, No. 1 (January 1996) * Note From The Editor How To Submit A Contribution? The Kyoto-Harvard Transcription Paper: StrIdhana: To Have and To Have Not, by Enrica Garzilli News * Vol. 2, No. 2 (May 15, 1996) * Note from the editor: Happy Mother's Day! Papers: Sati Was Not Enforced in Ancient Nepal, by Jayaraj Acharya The Daughters and the Hindu Rites, by Bandita Phukan Practical Steps Towards Saving the Lives of 25,000 Potential Victims of Dowry and Bride Burning in India, by Himendra B. Thakur New Titles: We Tried: Government Service in India and Nepal, by N. Damman (Enrica Garzilli) The Game in Reverse. Poems by Taslima Nasrin, transl. by Carolyne Wright (Enrica Garzilli) News * Vol. 2, No. 3 (December 1, 1996)* Note from the editor: Happy Birthday to Us! Paper: From 'Baylan' to 'Bruha': Hispanic Impact on the Animist Priestess in the Philippines, by Carolyn Brewer New Titles: Women, Information and the Future: Collecting and Sharing Resources Worldwide, by E. Steiner Moseley, ed. (Enrica Garzilli) * Vol. 2, No. 4 (December 22, 1996) * Note from the editor: Italian Dowry and Indian Dowry Deaths Papers: Domestic Violence: A Daily Terror in Most Mauritian Families, by Ranjita Bunwaree-Phukan Dowry, 'Dowry Deaths', and Violence Against Women, by Julia Leslie Hindu Marriage System, Hindu Scriptures, and Dowry and Bride-Burning in India, by Ram Narayan Tripathi Little Dowry, No SatI: The Lot of Women in the Vedic Period, by Michael E. J. Witzel * Vol. 3, No. 1 (May 20, 1997) * Note from the editor: The Independence of India: What Kind of Independence? Paper: The Perils of Free Speech, by Taslima Nasrin A Non-Conventional Woman: Two Evenings with Taslima Nasrin. A Report, by Enrica Garzilli New Titles: Bending Bamboo Changing Winds: Nepali Women Tell their Life Stories, by E. Kipp, ed. by D. Bayard Haber (Damber K. and Ambika Gurung) Notes on the Editors of the Journal Deb Photographs *********************************************************************** Enjoy the reading! -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) President, Asiatica Association http://www.asiatica.org ************************************************************* From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Fri Feb 13 21:46:29 1998 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 22:46:29 +0100 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035677.23782.3467372118424856580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 13-feb-98 schreef Jacob Baltuch: >Oops. I wrote: >>>Want to know the titles of texts on Lokayata philosophy in Sanskrit >>>and other Indian languages. I read that Madhava Vidyaranya's >>>Sarva Darshana Samgraha has few quotations. Where can I find >>>Brhaspati's sutras taught to Indra? Is there a complete text >>>in Sanskrit on Lokayatam? >> >>I have a vague recollection of having seen a mention of an article >>by A.L.Basham (who I suppose should be the same as the other one) >>on the naastika, lookaayata and other caarvaaka somewhere but I can't >>remember where. If you find it (assuming it really exists:) maybe >>that could be a a source of sources for you. >Two important details: it wasn't a paper but a book and it wasn't >about the lokaayata but the aajiivika. Wrong extinct sect. Sorry. For anyone who wants to know: A.L. Basham, 'History and Doctrines of the AjIvika's' Motilal Banarsidas Delhi 1981 repr. From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 14 09:36:25 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 01:36:25 -0800 Subject: Naciketas Message-ID: <161227035670.23782.13169963877616301650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shalom to all, Many of the MSS telling the story of Naciketas claim to be derived from Brahmanda Purana, including the MSS in the India Office of the British Library, that were translated by Belloni-Filippi. Unfortunately, I have not succeeded in tracing a text of the Brahmanda Purana that contains the Naciketa Katha. Does anyone know of such a text and where it can be found? Thanks in advance, Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 Email: amnev at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 06:36:40 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 01:36:40 -0500 Subject: "Lord of animals" - Bibliography Message-ID: <161227035669.23782.18321699971776760664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-13 04:35:06 EST, sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE writes: << An acquaintance of mine, Professor in Catholic Theology, is looking for references/information about; "Lord of animals" (hope I got the right word in english! in German: Herr der Tiere) in various religions and asked me, if I could tell something about it from Indian context. I only know that "Siva" is known as the Lord of Animals in Hindu mythology, and as a native Telugu, know the story associated with the SreekALahasti (temple). >> I think you have to consider the story of prajApati-rudra conflict wherein rudra is made pazupati. I remember reading an article (or was it a book?) by Wendy O'Flaherty discussing this in detail. I am sure other Sanskritists can give the necessary details. Some discussion of it is found in "The Presence of Ziva" by Stella Kramrisch in p.336. Regards S. Palaniappan From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Sat Feb 14 11:41:55 1998 From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 06:41:55 -0500 Subject: DEAR SIR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035672.23782.7358984778741357497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > TO WHOM IT SO EVER MAY CONCERN > > >Dear Professor, > >I am very happy to find out you ALL in this world. Its happened suddenly: I >was searching on Web information about Sanskrit Studies (this my cordial >interest) and got Indology page. CAN ANYBODY GUIDE ME? > >I would like to explain who I am. My name is >Viktor V. Sukliyan (26 years old). I was born in the City of Odessa, >Ukraine (former Soviet Union). From my childhood I was very much >interested both in Science (Astronomy, Mathematics, Physics) and in >Ancient Wisdom (Philosophy, Religion, Ancient Literature and History). >To combine the diametrical interests was not easy. I joined Physics >Department of Odessa University with specialisation in Astrophysics and >Mathematical Physics. >Simultaneously I attended evening classes of University in Latin >Language, Ancient Greek and Roman Philosophy, History and Literature as >well as in Hebrew and Bible Studies. At that time I had not heard >anything about Indian Civilisation and its achievements in Sciences and >Technology. First I was attracted by Philosophy and Yoga System of >Aurobindo Ghosh. Then I started reading Gita, Upanishads etc. It was not >clear and I decided to learn Sanskrit. Unfortunately in my country there >is not a single course in Sanskrit nowhere. Same situation was in nearby >Russia. So I decided to leave for India with purpose to study Sanskrit >there. I left my Physics course (completed only two years(4 terms) out of >Five-Year Integrated Baccalaureate Masters Degree Course) to fulfil my >burning desire to Penetrate in Wisdom of Ancient Indian Scientists and >Rishis. Oh, What a great misfortune, I cannot find out in India any >Sanskrit course in English medium for foreigners like myself. And also >nobody is interested in it. I am here for the last >1.5 years and trying to do on my own, but it is very slow process. I need >some guidance and friendly help. > Dear Viktor: I heard about a center (through a friend of mine) which is attempting to increase both the written and oral study of Sanskrit in India. The address is as follows. 73/2 Ranga Rao Road Sankarapuram Bangalore 560004 Phone: 0812-623-189 The person in charge used to be Krishna Sastry. Hope this helps, Lynken Ghose McGill University P.S. There are also centers for the study of Sanskrit at Thol (?sp) College in Calcutta, although I am not sure if the pandits there speak English, and in many other places in India, such as Poona, as was previously mentioned, and Sarnath (near Varanasi). >Now I appeal to You. Sir, please instruct me, what >should I do to quench my thirst for knowledge and wisdom. > >Sincerely Yours, >Viktor V. Sukliyan > >P.S. I live now in Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math, Sector 20-B, Chandigarh, >Punjab, India where I help this organisation with Computing. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 14 02:35:04 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 07:35:04 +0500 Subject: A book about the maritime contacts of telugus with S.E.Asia Message-ID: <161227035666.23782.4307963124878905277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The HINDU of Tuesday, Feb 10, has published a review on a book on the seafaring activities of Andhras and their interaction with South-East Asian countries. THE CULTURAL HISTORY OF LOWER KRISHNA VALLEY - Its Contacts with South-East Asia. A.Ramachandran; Publication Scheme,72, Mishra Rajaji Ka Rasta, Jaipur - 302001. Rs. 1500/- sarma. From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 13:12:58 1998 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 08:12:58 -0500 Subject: FREE Yarzhan Thamizh Editor Installation. Message-ID: <161227035674.23782.9711733728309410773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Since the CPDYTE file was compressed, some have experienced installation problems. This situation has been corrected and made easier. It is important to read the README.TXT before attempting instalallion. Hence a copy of README97.TXT is attached for ready reference. If you still have any problem please contact me. Thank you. R. Shanmugalingam. February 14, 1998. YOU MUST READ AND AGREE TO THIS LISCENSE AGREEMENT BEFORE USING THE SOFTWARE. IMPORTANT INSTALLATION AND SUPPORT INSTRUCTIONS ARE INCLUDED IN THIS DOCUMENT. *********************************************************************** * Character Phonetic Dependencies Editor: Yarzhan Tamil Editor V2.1 * * Copyright 1995 - 1998 C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalingam * *********************************************************************** WARNING: THIS COMPUTER PROGRAM IS PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT LAW AND INTERNATIONAL TREATIES. UNAUTHORIZED REPRODUCTION OR DISTRIBUTION OF THIS PROGRAM, OR ANY PORTION OF THIS PROGRAM, MAY RESULT IN SEVERE CIVIL AND CRIMINAL PENALTIES. VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT POSSIBLE UNDER THE LAW. This software is provided to you for evaluation and use throughout 1998. You are free to use this software to generate and read Tamil and English documents, but for those uses only. This is a full version of the Yarzhan Tamil Editor, but it will cease to function after 1998. It is being offered to you for no charge at this time in the interest of helping all those that desire a fast and simple method for typing Tamil on a standard computer keyboard. You must read and agree to the following License Agreement before installing, copying, or using the Yarzhan Tamil Editor. L I C E N S E A G R E E M E N T --------------------------------- Use of the Yarzhan Tamil Editor is subject to the following terms and conditions. Title To The Licensed Software ------------------------------ Title to the licensed software is NOT transferred or sold to the end user. The end user is granted a non-exclusive license to use the software on a SINGLE computer or computer workstation. EACH computer or computer workstation must have its own licensed copy of the software. Copyright Protection -------------------- The Yarzhan Tamil Editor is copyrighted material. It is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, the State of New Hampshire, international treaties, and other proprietary rights of C. Harrises / R. Shanmugaingam. You may not make any changes or modifications to the Yarzhan Tamil software or documentation. You may not decompile, disassemble, or otherwise reverse-engineer the software in any way. You may make copies of the Yarzhan Tamil Editor only under the terms of the section entitled "Limited License To Copy The Licensed Software". You may use the Yarhan Tamil Editor throughout 1998 on a trial basis only, provided you do not violate the protection afforded the licensed software by the copyright laws, and you agree to the terms of the license agreement. The Yarzhan Tamil Editor Software V2.1 expires after 1998. If you wish to use the Yarzhan Tamil Editor after the expiration date you must purchase the software. Limited Warranty ---------------- C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalingam does not warrant that the licensed software will meet your requirements or that the operation of the software will be uninterrupted or error free. The warranty does not cover any media or documentation which has been subjected to damage or abuse by you or others. The software warranty does not cover any copy of the licensed software which has been altered or changed in any way. Stated clearly, THERE IS NO WARRANTY PROVIDED FOR USE OF THE YARZHAN TAMIL EDITOR SOFTWARE. ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES INCLUDING ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE LIMITED TO THE TERM OF THE EXPRESS WARRANTIES. Some States do not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts, so the above limitation may not apply to you. Other Warranties ---------------- The warranties set forth above are in lieu of any and all other express or implied warranties, whether oral, written, or implied, and the remedies set forth above are the sole and exclusive remedies. Limitation Of Liability ----------------------- C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalingam is not responsible nor liable in anyway for any problems or damage caused by the licensed software that may result from using the licensed software. This includes, but is not limited to, computer hardware, computer software, operating systems, and any computer or computing accessories. End user agrees to hold C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalingam harmless for any problems arising from the use of the software. C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalingam SHALL NOT IN ANY CASE BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT OR OTHER SIMILAR DAMAGES ARISING FROM ANY BREACH OF THESE WARRANTIES EVEN IF C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalignam OR ITS AGENTS OR DISTRIBUTORS HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you. In no case shall C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalingam's liability exceed the license fees paid for the right to use the licensed software, or a sum no greater than one Dollar ($1.00), whichever is less. Limited License To Copy The Software ------------------------------------ You are granted a limited license to copy the Yarzhan Tamil Editor ONLY FOR THE TRIAL USE OF OTHERS subject to the terms of this software license agreement described herein, and that the conditions described below are met: * The Yarzhan Tamil Editor MUST be copied in an unmodified form, provided as the file TAMED.EXE which MUST contain only the following eleven files: CTL3D.DLL INSTALL.EXE LZEXPAND.DLL README.TXT TAMCHRT.WB3 TAMEDIT.EX_ TAMIL.HLP TAMKYBD.WB3 WELCOME.TXT WINSTALL.INF YARZHAN.TTF * No fee, charge or other compensation may be accepted or requested by anyone without the express written permission of C. Harrises / R. Shanmugalingam. The above constitutes the license agreement for the Yarzhan Tamil Editor. It supersedes any and all previous license agreements. Support ------- FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION, CONTACT: R. Shanmugalingam ("Shan") International Products Group 36 Farrell Court Marblehead, MA 01945, USA Voice/FAX (617)639-2612 email: appuarchie at aol.com DOCUMENTATION: -------------- The user should read not only this file (README.TXT), but the online help within the editor. Two files are provided as a courtesy to the user: TAMCHRT.WB3 TAMKYBD.WB3 These are Quatro Pro Version 7 spreadsheet files which contain the Character-Keyboard Dependencies Chart and the Keyboard Layout. The printout of these files may be easier to read than the graphics in the online help. INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS: -------------------------- The file TAMED.EXE is self-extracting and self-installing. For Windows 3.1: 1. For Windows 3.1, from the Program Manager menu, click on "File". For Windows 95, click on the Start button. 2. Click on "Run". 3. Type in "a:tamed.exe" if you are installing from a disk. If you downloaded the file, type in the drive and directory path of the download in place of the "a:" (for example, "c:\temp\tamed.exe"). 4. Click on "OK" 5. Follow the instructions on the screen. 6. After installation you must exit Windows. The required fonts will be correctly installed only after you restart Windows. TO RUN THE PROGRAM: ------------------- 1. Double click on the group "Thamizh Editor" 2. Double click on the item "Editor" RELEASE NOTES: -------------- 1. Due to a limitation in WordPerfect "cutting" from this editor and "pasting" into a WordPerfect document does not work properly. "Pasting" into Microsoft Write, Microsoft WordPad, and Microsoft Word does work fine. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sat Feb 14 16:26:38 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 10:26:38 -0600 Subject: Oxford University Press in India Message-ID: <161227035676.23782.13928139073075291155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Allen Thrasher wrote: > However, this raises an interesting historical question. Has any research > been done on the study of Greek and Latin in colonial and post-colonial > South Asia? One measure can be how the study percolates to Indian languages. For example, Rajaji, the first Governor General of India wrote a book in Tamil on Socrates. For info. about Greek/Latin translations, the following gives a wealth of info. S. Sivakami, Bibliography on translations - mozipeyarppu nUl tokai. International Inst. of Tamil Studies, Madras, 1983, 556 p. Regards, N. Ganesan From jkirk at MICRON.NET Sat Feb 14 19:29:55 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk@micron.net) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:29:55 -0700 Subject: Latin and Greek in India Message-ID: <161227035679.23782.3712270488669378810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This topic has jogged my interest and I am now pursuing my way slowly through some possible leads. Thus, I was reminded that Raja Ram Mohan Roy--having already learned Arabic and Sanskrit, (he "grew up" with Persian), some time after 1914 when he moved to Calcutta, studied and learned Latin, Greek and Hebrew, becoming quite proficient in the last two, such that he made extensive use of them in writing his PRECEPTS OF JESUS, The Guide to Peace and Happiness....Boston: Christian Register Office, 1828, see Preface by Thomas Rees, Secretary to the Unitarian Society, p.iv. This book was a polemic against Christian Trinitarianism. When he was appointed Dewan--collector of revenue-- in Calcutta, he also became adept in English, having begun the study of it some years earlier. Surely there were also other luminaries of the Renaisance who studied European classical languages? Nirad Chaudhuri often sprinkled his accounts with both Latin and French, but I haven't yet found out if he actually studied Latin, or if he simply used a phrasebook to create his sophisticated effects. Joanna Kirkpatrick From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 14 20:31:40 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:31:40 -0800 Subject: Latin and Greek in India Message-ID: <161227035685.23782.11299702684372063769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Joanna Kirkpatrick says: <> Raja Ram Mohun Roy( 1773-1833) may have been procifient as was this gentleman called "visvanath narayan mandlik" who was a native of Poona who in the 19th century is supposed to have mastered 4 or 5 languages well enough to write books in them....I've seen a biography of the late B.G.Kher, the former chief minister of Bombay which refered to a gentleman by name Jambhekar who is supposed to have mast ered Greek and Latin... Swathi Tirunal, the maharaja of Travacore had a dewan called Tanjavur Subba Rao, who was very well known for his Anglicization and love of western learning. He too(If I'm not wrong)was an expert in Greek and Latin...This gentleman, who was the first Indian to author a work of fiction in English( the drama "Cristna(Krishna) Covoor", a drama about palace intrigue circa 1840), which I'm told has liberal doses of Latin phraseology.... The government of India of course retains Latin and Greek in it's own peculiar way..the degree given to Doctors should be BMBS( Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery ) if the English version is adopted but this is called the MBBS( Medicine Bachelarius[sic] and Bachelor of Surgery, an expression that is half-English and half-Latin) and students( atleast in the ICSE board of more than 10 years ago) have it drilled into their heads that Caesar exclaimed "Wini, Widi, Wici" which seems to me a very weeny, weedy and witchy way of saying "Veni, Vidi, Vici"!:-),:-) (The reason why they do it this way is apparently that they think the "Wini" is connected to "I conquered" i.e. win/won) OF course, last but not the very least, you have all the bright souls who in the process of immigrating to the "Elysian Isles" ( also called U.S.A) learn by heart the meanings of archiac Latin phrases like "mare rostrum","ne plus ultra" and regularly pepper their pre-GRE talk with it..."Yaar, when we fly to the USA on Air India, we shall fly over the Mare Rostrum!"...the more bookish souls among them, I suppose, expect to be greeted with "Quo Vadis?" while stepping off the plane in New York:-) Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From tjlenz at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Feb 14 22:36:28 1998 From: tjlenz at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (T. Lenz) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 14:36:28 -0800 Subject: Indic Roman In-Reply-To: <19980214203140.24628.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035687.23782.16504167254802637020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of Indology, Does anyone have access to a font called Indic Roman? I am attempting to recover some files of one of our colleagues and my computer assures me that at least some of his files were written using this font. Unfortunately, the font is nowhere to be found in the materials with which I am working. Any assistance in this matter would be much appreciated. Tim Lenz University of Washington Box 353521 Seattle, Washington 98195 From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Feb 15 00:03:28 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 18:03:28 -0600 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227035689.23782.2824932075861252700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Lokayata see Eli Franco's Perception, Knowledge and Disbelief. A Study of Jayarasi's Scepticism. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 1994 (2nd ed.), orig. ed. 1987. Contains text of the Tattvopaplavasimha of Jayarasi, its translation, and a study of the material. Edeltraud Harzer Clear. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Feb 14 20:14:53 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 20:14:53 +0000 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North In-Reply-To: <19980211025348.15409.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035681.23782.6269015673229871950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know how widely it is known that the late Shankaracharya Shantananda Sarasvati published a collection of spiritual stories: Title: The man who wanted to meet God: myths and stories that explain the inexplicable. Author: His Holiness Shantanand Saraswati Publ.: Element Books Ltd., Shaftesbury, Dorset SP7 8BP, UK. Date: 1996 (first ed. 1992) ISBN: 1-85230-843-5 The blurb says: "His Holiness Shantanand Saraswati was Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math in Northern India from 1953 until his retirement in 1980. His Holiness comes from the ancient Advaita or nondualist tradition of knowledge and meditation and is one of Indas' greatest living saints. He continues the work of his predecessor HH Brahmananda Saraswati (Gurudeva), in making mantra meditation available to people of many religious traditions." Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Feb 14 20:17:54 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 20:17:54 +0000 Subject: Latin and Greek in India (Was: Oxford University Press in India) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035683.23782.13095841756911277500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > However, this raises an interesting historical question. Has any research > been done on the study of Greek and Latin in colonial and post-colonial > South Asia? They must have been taught at a great many schools and > colleges in India for the sake of the ICS examinations, but I have seen > nothing about the subject. It *is* a very interesting question, Allen. I think I recall seeing several classical texts in the bookshop of the late Dinkar Trivedi, the New Age Bookstore on Ellis Bridge Road in Ahmedabad. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From downingg at IS2.NYU.EDU Sun Feb 15 01:39:40 1998 From: downingg at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 20:39:40 -0500 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) Message-ID: <161227035690.23782.3683887888490899197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 14 Feb 1998 "jkirk at micron.net" wrote: >Nirad Chaudhuri often sprinkled his accounts with both Latin and French, >but I haven't yet found out if he actually studied Latin, or if he >simply used a phrasebook to create his sophisticated effects. > >Joanna Kirkpatrick > I'm familiar with this author from his very carefully researched biography of Max Mueller (1974), which is in my research area (history of language-study). But as a non-Indologist, I am not sure how prominent a figure Chaudhuri is. I notice his name was brought up (see above) in JK's short list of Indian scholars who might have studied or known Greek and/or Latin. Is that because Chaudhuri is unusual among Indian scholars in knowing Greek and Latin, or because he is a particularly prominent Indologist, and thus a good example of a well-known Indologist who perhaps knew Latin? When did he die, by the way (as the above para. seems to imply)? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From dvmason at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU Sun Feb 15 03:08:05 1998 From: dvmason at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Dave and Celia Mason) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 21:08:05 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit "Midsummer" Message-ID: <161227035692.23782.5391470702506383311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was an 1892 Sanskrit adaptation of "A Midsummer Night's Dream" somewhere on the Subcontinent. Supposedly there is a text of this production. The best bibliographical citation I can find is as follows: Krishnamacharya, R. Vasantikasvapnam. Kumbhakonam, the translator, 1892. xvi, 70p. 20cm. An adaptation. Can anyone tell me any more about this? Anybody know where it was produced? Most of all--anybody know how I might go about getting my hands on a copy? Thanks. Dave Dave and Celia Mason dvmason at students.wisc.edu http://igor.lis.wisc.edu/mason/cv.html From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Sun Feb 15 04:57:48 1998 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Hardy) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 22:57:48 -0600 Subject: Pande's 'Origins of Buddhism' Message-ID: <161227035697.23782.5522714624000883085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, I am currently reading Govind Chandra Pande's 'Studies in the Origins of Buddhism' (1957; revised 1974), and am curious as to how well, in general, this work stands up in light of more recent research in the area of Early Buddhism/Pali literature. Can anyone on this list with a better knowledge of this text and subject than I offer some thoughts on Pande's work in this regard? Thanks in advance, K. Hardy Student of Religion and Sanskrit, University of Manitoba (umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca) From srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU Sun Feb 15 07:15:30 1998 From: srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 02:15:30 -0500 Subject: Latin and Greek in India Message-ID: <161227035699.23782.17979555312362763373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This topic has jogged my interest and I am now pursuing my way slowly through some possible leads. Thus, I was reminded that Raja Ram Mohan Roy--having already learned Arabic and Sanskrit, (he "grew up" with Persian), some time after 1914 when he moved to Calcutta, studied and learned Latin, Greek and Hebrew, becoming quite proficient in the last two, such that he made extensive use of them in writing his PRECEPTS OF JESUS, The Guide to Peace and Happiness....Boston: Christian Register Office, 1828, see Preface by Thomas Rees, Secretary to the Unitarian Society, p.iv. This book was a polemic against Christian Trinitarianism. When he was appointed Dewan--collector of revenue-- in Calcutta, he also became adept in English, having begun the study of it some years earlier. Surely there were also other luminaries of the Renaisance who studied European classical languages? Nirad Chaudhuri often sprinkled his accounts with both Latin and French, but I haven't yet found out if he actually studied Latin, or if he simply used a phrasebook to create his sophisticated effects. Joanna Kirkpatrick Although he didn't belong to the Bengali Renaissance, P.Seshadri Iyer (? - 1969) of Kerala seems to have studied Greek and Latin. On the back cover of his book "Sandhyavandanam" (Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1978), there is a writeup on him. Apparently, he was a great linguist and scholar... and was renowned for his polyglotism. The writeup says that he learnt Greek to read Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus... and translated the former's Meditations into Malayalam... he also translated the History of Pelopponnesian War from Greek into Malayalam. Among his other translations into Malayalam are Plutarch's Lives, Montaigne's Essays... and he translated Rajaji's "viyAcar viruntu" (Mahabharata) from the original Tamil into Bengali ! -Srini. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Feb 15 13:02:23 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 08:02:23 -0500 Subject: a Srauta question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035700.23782.182017720914956118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The best answer I have come up with my own question is that the KalpasUtra beginning with athaitasya samAmnAyasya and having 16 adhyAyas is the AsvalAyana-Srauta-sUtra and the AsvalAyana-gRhya-sUtra taken together. The first has 12 adhyAyas and the second has 4 adhyAyas. The second one takes off where the first one ends: uktAni vaitAnikAni, gRhyANi vakzyAmaH (AGS 1.1.1). It looks like my author looked at these two texts as forming a single Kalpa. If there are any other suggestions, I would love to hear them. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Indologists, > I am reading a text which refers to a Kalpa text in 16 adhyAyas > beginning with the words athaitasya samAmnAyasya. As far as I know, this > is the first sUtra of the ASvalAyana-Srauta-sUtra, but this sutra has only > 12 adhyAyas. Does anyone know of another SrautasUtra which begins with > the same words and has sixteen adhyAyas? > All the best, > Madhav Deshpande > From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sun Feb 15 14:07:16 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 08:07:16 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035702.23782.16096230603710707329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Sarma wrote: >You are absolutely right. But here we are interested in how "koel" >entered English. That I do not think is from sanskrit or prAkrit. It >can be from telugu "kOyila" or from north indian languages like Hindi >which have the word "kOyal. I am not so sure. According to the Oxford dictionary, the word was first used by Erskine in 1826. There is a Erskine hospital in Madurai. It could have come from tamil too. N. Ganesan From mchari at BCM.TMC.EDU Sun Feb 15 14:49:58 1998 From: mchari at BCM.TMC.EDU (Mohan Vedantha Chari) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 08:49:58 -0600 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) In-Reply-To: <199802150139.UAA06493@is2.nyu.edu> Message-ID: <161227035709.23782.9812734163347010917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nirad Chaudhuri is still alive having just celebrated his 100th birthday in England, currently his country of domicile. Nirad Chaudhuri is very fond of using european expressions etc in his voluminous writings. His use of such expressions have on the whole been extremely pertinent.There is however no mention, to my knowledge, of his having learnt greek and lati Mohan V. Chari On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: > On 14 Feb 1998 "jkirk at micron.net" wrote: > >Nirad Chaudhuri often sprinkled his accounts with both Latin and French, > >but I haven't yet found out if he actually studied Latin, or if he > >simply used a phrasebook to create his sophisticated effects. > > > >Joanna Kirkpatrick > > > > I'm familiar with this author from his very carefully researched biography > of Max Mueller (1974), which is in my research area (history of > language-study). But as a non-Indologist, I am not sure how prominent a > figure Chaudhuri is. I notice his name was brought up (see above) in JK's > short list of Indian scholars who might have studied or known Greek and/or > Latin. Is that because Chaudhuri is unusual among Indian scholars in knowing > Greek and Latin, or because he is a particularly prominent Indologist, and > thus a good example of a well-known Indologist who perhaps knew Latin? When > did he die, by the way (as the above para. seems to imply)? > > Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu > From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 15 03:22:54 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 08:52:54 +0530 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) Message-ID: <161227035694.23782.8875263531187295374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> he is alive and is in england ---------- > From: Gregoryof a well-known Indologist who perhaps knew Latin? When > did he die, by the way (as the above para. seems to imply)? > > Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 15 05:08:44 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 10:08:44 +0500 Subject: Indic Roman Message-ID: <161227035696.23782.9321011186784040977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, Indic Roman is the software developed by Ecological Linguistics, PO Box 15156, Washington, DC 20003, USA. Costs about $70. It is pretty good. I have been using it for the last two years. Bh.K. At 14:36 14/02/98 -0800, you wrote: >Dear Members of Indology, > >Does anyone have access to a font called Indic Roman? I am attempting to >recover some files of one of our colleagues and my computer >assures me that at least some of his files were written using this font. >Unfortunately, the font is nowhere to be found in the materials with >which I am working. > >Any assistance in this matter would be much appreciated. > >Tim Lenz >University of Washington >Box 353521 >Seattle, Washington 98195 > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sun Feb 15 16:19:51 1998 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 10:19:51 -0600 Subject: a Srauta question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035712.23782.13916359567883637315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, I looked through my different SSus and could find nothing. You are probably correct, esp as your author referred to "kalpasUtra." But what is the text you were reading which refers to this KalpasUtra? Fred On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The best answer I have come up with my own question is that the > KalpasUtra beginning with athaitasya samAmnAyasya and having 16 adhyAyas > is the AsvalAyana-Srauta-sUtra and the AsvalAyana-gRhya-sUtra taken > together. The first has 12 adhyAyas and the second has 4 adhyAyas. The > second one takes off where the first one ends: uktAni vaitAnikAni, gRhyANi > vakzyAmaH (AGS 1.1.1). It looks like my author looked at these two texts > as forming a single Kalpa. > If there are any other suggestions, I would love to hear them. > > Madhav Deshpande > > On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > > Dear Indologists, > > I am reading a text which refers to a Kalpa text in 16 adhyAyas > > beginning with the words athaitasya samAmnAyasya. As far as I know, this > > is the first sUtra of the ASvalAyana-Srauta-sUtra, but this sutra has only > > 12 adhyAyas. Does anyone know of another SrautasUtra which begins with > > the same words and has sixteen adhyAyas? > > All the best, > > Madhav Deshpande > > > From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 15 18:58:34 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 10:58:34 -0800 Subject: -vada / -vadin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035707.23782.6497240364635201328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan et al.: In inscriptions, we find both sarvaasti-vaada- and -vaadin- to refer to adherents (usually "aacaarya-s") of the school. The former occurs, for example, in the Mathura lion capital (Konow CII II.2, line A-15 and J-3) and the Kurram casket ins. (ibid. p.11, line 1C). I haven't checked this point extensively, but I would expect that inscriptions would be useful in clearing up (or perhaps rather in further confusing) this issue. RS On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > I recently "corrected" the draft of a friend's paper, and suggested that > the usage Sarvastivada was correct for the sect, and Sarvastivadin for a > follower of said sect. The same for Vibhajyavadin. However, in looking > through some sources my friend tells me that the actual usage in texts > seems to be inconsistent. Is this possible, grammatically speaking? In > other words, can we take 'Sarvastivadin' as the name of the sect and > 'Sarvastivada' is an adjective form (as the 'Mulasarvastivada-vinaya')? > Apparently both Frauwallner and Bareau use Sarvastivadin as the name of the > sect. > > Any comments welcome! > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu > From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Sun Feb 15 08:19:37 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 17:19:37 +0900 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227035740.23782.7750086932855051234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > > > 2/13/98 > > > > Want to know the titles of texts on Lokayata philosophy in Sanskrit > > and other Indian languages. I read that Madhava Vidyaranya's > > Sarva Darshana Samgraha has few quotations. Where can I find > > Brhaspati's sutras taught to Indra? Is there a complete text > > in Sanskrit on Lokayatam? > > > > The reason I am asking this is because, in Tamil there is late > > 11th century/early 12th century vaLamaTal prabandham > > by Kaviccakravartti JayamkoNTaar. It is only 550 lines > > and expresses Lokayata philosophy. Of course, Buddhist > > Manimekalai, Jain Neelakesi and Saiva Siddhanta SivaJaana > > Siddhiyaar refutes Lokayata princilpes. A palm leaf mss. > > of the Lokayata prabandham is at GOML, Madras. The other > > is at Perur Adheenam near Coimbatore. > > > > Thanks, > > N. Ganesan Maybe the following publication would be of use: Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya: Caarvaaka/Lokaayata: An Anthology of Source Materials and Some Recent Studies. In collaboration with Mrinal Kanti Gangopadhyaya. New Delhi: Indian Council of Philosophical Research, 1990. -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 16 02:14:05 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 18:14:05 -0800 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) Message-ID: <161227035705.23782.12646043549764371473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Gregory {Greg} Downing asks: > Is that because Chaudhuri is unusual among Indian scholars in >knowingGreek and Latin, or because he is a particularly prominent >Indologist, nyet! He is a prominent *anti-Indologist*( A person who writes only on the negative aspects of India and tells a few tales in the process is an *anti-Indologist*) I'm not sure of his writings about Mueller, but I've read about his rants against Vaishnavism and can only say 1. He seems to be one of the most provincial and parochial people you can ever meet( His knowledge is restricted to Bengal and Bengal alone, he also seems to labor under the illusion that Bengal is representative /spokesman for the rest of India)... 2. His main penchant is for being trenchant; this results in a style that is far too belligerent and inelegant... 3. His favorite technique seems to be picking up on practice and then passing it off as theory/theology...using this technique, any religion can be proved to be meaningless, phony( use your favorite adjective here; BTW I am no supporter of Hinduttvavaada)....If you show him the archives of INDOLOGY net, it is a safe bet that he will condemn the whole thing as false since we are discussing "Latin and Greek in India " under the guise of "Indology". His autobiography reads "The autobiography of an unknown Indian!" After the publishing of this tome, he has indeed become known, but for all the wrong reasons...I find his works a more academic version of Katherine MAyo's "Mother India" or Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses", people whose main incentive for writing seems to be indulging in invective... REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 16 02:56:11 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 18:56:11 -0800 Subject: Shankaracarya of the North Message-ID: <161227035711.23782.9307056258850188581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I don't know how widely it is known that the late Shankaracharya >Shantananda Sarasvati published a collection of spiritual stories: > >Title: The man who wanted to meet God: myths and stories that explain the > inexplicable. >Author: His Holiness Shantanand Saraswati >Publ.: Element Books Ltd., Shaftesbury, Dorset SP7 8BP, UK. >Date: 1996 (first ed. 1992) >ISBN: 1-85230-843-5 > >The blurb says: "His Holiness Shantanand Saraswati was Shankaracharya of >Jyotir Math in Northern India from 1953 until his retirement in 1980. His >Holiness comes from the ancient Advaita or nondualist tradition of >knowledge and meditation and is one of Indas' greatest living saints. He >continues the work of his predecessor HH Brahmananda Saraswati (Gurudeva), >in making mantra meditation available to people of many religious >traditions." Two other publications of Sri Santananda Sarasvati are listed in the Amazon.com catalogue. 1. Good Company: An Anthology of Sayings, Stories and Answers to Questions 2. Pure Wisdom: Insights for Those Seeking Happiness and Peace of Mind In addition, see Andrew Rawlinson, "The Book of Enlightened Masters: Western Teachers in Eastern Traditions" for some general information on (ex-TM) British followers of Sri Santananda. This is a rather well researched publication, and provides reliable lineage information for a number of Hindu and Buddhist traditions that have found a home in the West. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 16 03:28:28 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 19:28:28 -0800 Subject: Naciketas Message-ID: <161227035704.23782.9840716180668924127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amos Nevo writes: >Many of the MSS telling the story of Naciketas claim to be derived from >Brahmanda Purana, including the MSS in the India Office of the British >Library, that were translated by Belloni-Filippi. >Unfortunately, I have not succeeded in tracing a text of the Brahmanda >Purana that contains the Naciketa Katha. The brahmANDa and skAnda purANa-s are convenient texts to which many a sundry myth (particularly a sthala-purANa) is ascribed. Given a story that claims to be derived from brahmANDa, there is approximately a 50% chance that it will be actually found in the currently available mss of the purANa. The statement "this is from the brahmANDa purANa" often really means, "this ought to be in the brahmANDa purANa". This does not necessarily mean that the story itself is suspect, although a lot of phony claims have been made. In any case, the Naciketas story probably predates the purANa. It might help to see if any of the standard commentaries on the kaTha upanishad quote details which they attribute to the brahmANDa purANa. If Sankara, Rangaramanuja and Madhva (especially Madhva, who quotes more purANas, and more often than the other two) do not say so, there is a good chance that the tradition of deriving the Naciketas story from the brahmANDa purANa is a recent one. Also check if sAyaNa's commentaries say something in this regard. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 16 08:18:10 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 00:18:10 -0800 Subject: Naciketas Message-ID: <161227035714.23782.14058588224941729316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am grateful to vidyasankar Sundaresan for his clarification: > >The brahmANDa and skAnda purANa-s are convenient texts to which many a >sundry myth (particularly a sthala-purANa) is ascribed. Given a story >that claims to be derived from brahmANDa, there is approximately a 50% >chance that it will be actually found in the currently available mss of >the purANa. > >The statement "this is from the brahmANDa purANa" often really means, >"this ought to be in the brahmANDa purANa". This does not necessarily >mean that the story itself is suspect, although a lot of phony claims >have been made. In any case, the Naciketas story probably predates the >purANa. > >It might help to see if any of the standard commentaries on the kaTha >upanishad quote details which they attribute to the brahmANDa purANa. If >Sankara, Rangaramanuja and Madhva (especially Madhva, who quotes more >purANas, and more often than the other two) do not say so, there is a >good chance that the tradition of deriving the Naciketas story from the >brahmANDa purANa is a recent one. Also check if sAyaNa's commentaries >say something in this regard. > >Vidyasankar Actually the MSS of the story of Naciketas, mostly variations of the name "NAsiketopAkhyAnam", are recent versions of the ancient story from the VrAha PurANa. All the commentators that I know of - old and modern, Western and Eastern - do not mention the recent story at all. Belloni-Filippi translated the MSS found in the British Library and S. Krause, who translated a Rajastani version of the story, refers to Belloni-Filippi. So, as far as I know, in commentating on KaTHopaniSad, no one refers to the recent versions of the story. If anybody could enlighten me about the subject, I shall appreciate it. Thanks in advance. Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 Email: amnev at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Mon Feb 16 12:08:25 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 07:08:25 -0500 Subject: `Vedic' vs Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227035716.23782.9844151813935023576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is a post in an Usenet group I made. I am curious about this claim that the term `Vedic Sanskrit' is incorrect. What do `real' Indologists think? Regards -Nath From: Vidhyanath Rao Subject: Re: IE homeland: Synthesis Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 6:50 AM Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote in message <34f1308f.488327551 at news.wxs.nl>... >I have been adviced by specialists *never* to utter the word "Vedic >Sanskrit". It's Vedic, or Sanskrit. The language codified by Panini >is Sanskrit, and there is no reason to assume it wasn't something >close to his native tongue. I am curious: Just who are these ``experts'', and how much do they know about Panini? I have seen blunders committed by those who one are respected indologists. For example, once Jan Gonda asserted that in a vartika, `lokavijnaate' is used as an explanation of `anadyatane' [the former is qualifies `parok.se', occuring in the vaartika and in a different suutra of Panini]. And do these same experts not use `Greek' for the language of Homer? Do they not use `Tamil' for the language of Sangam literature? [Mcdonell describes the difference between Vedic and Classical Sanskrit as similar to the difference between Homeric and Hellenistic Greek. Sangam and Modern Tamil differ as much as Vedic and early Prakrits.] While few would go as far as Bronkhorst (in a paper in IIJ in the early 1970's) and claim that `Vedic' texts, in an archaising dialect, were still being composed in Panini's day, I fail to see how anyone with firsthand knowledge of both Panini and the Vedic texts can deny that the langauge described Panini is closer to the latter Vedic texts than to that of the epics of other medieval texts. In particular, in the matter of the verb system, Panini's rules describe something very close to that of Aitreya and Satapatha Brahmanas. To give one example: The so-called conditional is used only in conditional sentences in medieval texts. Panini simply says that it is used whereever the optative would be, if the event did/will not take place. The Veic use conforms to Panini's rule, and in fact, the standard example, `naavindat yad aho.syat' is described in precisely the same terms by Mcdonell and others. In the last century, there was a tendency to imply that the Vedas, especially the Rgveda were non-Indian. It seems to me that the statement Vidal made is a residue of that. The unfortunate failure of Indologists to replace Whitney' grammar prevents the removal of the 19th century prejudices. In particular, the modern choronology is incompatible with the idea that Panini was or should be describing the language of epics etc, which in their present form are latter than Panini by 600 years or more. Yet people go on assuming that Panini's grammar is a grammar of medieval Sanskrit, and thinking that gap between middle and late Vedic texts and Panini is as great as the gap between Rgveda and Mahabharata/Ramayana. This is reinforced by the usual selection of reading material for Sanskrit classes. Any attempt to question conclusions arising from such faulty approach is just shrugged off, especially if they come persons of Indian origin. The exclusive use of material by those with axes to grind will never be tolerated if those affected were any group except Hindus. And people wonder why Hindus get angry at Indologists. Thank you for listening and I will now get off the soapbox. From jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Mon Feb 16 13:25:50 1998 From: jp_stephens at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (SStephen) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 08:25:50 -0500 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) Message-ID: <161227035752.23782.1897707552406136329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna: Yours is an insider's view on India and how different (yet more authentic) it is than the world's view! Sujatha :-) -----Original Message----- From: S Krishna To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: February 16, 1998 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) >Dominik Wujastyk says: >>On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, S Krishna wrote: ><Mayo's "Mother India" or Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses", people whose >main incentive for writing seems to be indulging in invective>> > > >Dominik: >Sorry, I can't let that one pass. First, freedom of speech allows you >toimpute "incentive" to whomever you like, of course. But if you expect >to have your claims taken seriously in an academic forum like INDOLOGY, >you can't just present condemnations of that kind without justification. >You have to back up your claim with genuine scholarship on the >topic,especially if your claim is that controversial. > ><for INDOLOGY>> > >This is the only thing, Dominik, on which I agree with you...Since you >are looking for "genuine scholarship" on the subject, I will being >up different people/scholars/editors and leave it to you to decide >what is what....(I assume you want to know about Rushdie and MAyo since >I've given the name of the text and specific topic on the >basis of which the comments on Nirad babu were made) > > I had said that Nirad babu's works are a more academic variety of >Rushdie's works and MAyo's works in that they misrepresent things, >and are known for their invective..... > > I will also prove that Rushdie jee is as provincial as Nirad Babu >(The difference being that Nirad babu thinks that Bengal can speak for >India, Rushdie thinks that Indian/Urdu writers are the best in the >whole of the Indian sub-continent) > > In the case of Rushdie, the first thing that one notices on reading >his works i.e. Midnight's Children, Shame and Satanic Verses is the >frequent use of four letter words...some soul once counted the number >of four letter words that are found all over Satanic Verses and >found that a four letter word could be expected atleast once in every >page. I am not sure of what is the literary purpose of all this..to >prove his expertise/familarity with four letter words? Well, if this >what he was trying to prove, I suppose that he can take pride in the >fact that his vocabulary would put the fisherwomen of Billingsgate >to shame, the difference being that they are not paid millions of pounds >to swear at and abuse people right, left and center. Trevor-Roper for >example says that if Rushdie were to be hit in some back street, then >his "Manners would improve"..this is the result >of his being so free with invective... > > The main thread in "Satanic Verses" is the Al-Gharaniq incident in >the Quran about the admissibility of the Gods MAnat, >Al Lat and Al Uzza in ISlam. Even assuming and granting that the >incident is true( a controversial assumption in itself), Rushdie >generalizes the whole thing( the actual lines that were abrogated are >just two and form part of just one ayat in one surah) to suggest that >the whole of the Quran was revealed by the Devil( it parallels Nirad >Babu's technique of lifting a single practice from the Vaishnavas of >Bengal, and then generalizing it to be representative of all the >Vaishnavas). This is a fine case of mixing fact with fiction to brew a >strong concoction that primarily serves the purpose of getting the cash >registers to ring. As you may be knowing,there exists in London a very >elite club consisting of journalists, academics and novelists called the >Page 15 club" whose common feature is that they've never read beyondPage >15 of any of Rushdie's books. The books they tell us, are "dense", >"convoluted", "unreadable" and "full of vile abuse". >(This fact was referred to by the NYer which ran an article on Rushdie ( >Will dig up the exact reference if you want me to)) > > As far as his proclivity towards sensationalism is concerned, we have >Roald Dahl who assures us that Rushdie "deliberately" sensationalized >"Satanic Verses" in order to make it a best seller. The same holds true >of Nirad Babu, who makes the claim that the Brahmins tampered with >things in order to make Sanskrit look greater and older; as >inscriptions indicate, it should be Prakrit that came in earlier... >such stuff will immideatly[sic] increase sales since all DMK wallahs, >and JNU based historians will make a bee line for purchasing this book >since it supports their own convoluted brand of thinking...Net result: >Sales go up and one achieves name and fame the easy way... These are the >commonalities between the worthy souls of Rushdie and Nirad babu, both >of whom personify the antiquated concept of the Brown Saheb... > > > >Dominik: ><flamboyant, funny, and closely-observed piece of well-written fiction, >very much in the vein of his earlier Midnight's Children.>> > >The difficulty, dear Dominik, is that much of the invective is actually >in URdu/Hindi..please reread "Satanic Verses" and count >the number oftimes he uses the Hindi expression "BehanC****" ( >and also find out the meaning, since I would desist from translating >such stuff here)...non-Hindi speakers may think of it is as a very cute, >exotic kind of expression, but I am sure that all Hindi speakers would >beg to disagree..... As for his *witty*( to quote you)versification, you >seem to think: >"Being God's postman is no fun, yaaar! >Butbutbut!.........(Can't remember what comes here) >God knows whose postman I've been" >(I've paraphrased the verse since I don't the book with me right now) >is an example of splendid versification and rivals Edward Lear's >Limericks, but I ( and I'm in distinguished company here, Khuswant >Singh thinks so too) think it the kind of doggerel that would do >an adolescent proud..it is certainly not the kind of stuff that would >help win an author the Baker Prize or the Noble Prize( he was nominated >for the Noble Prize 2 or 3 years ago) > >And yes, the whole thing is *fiction*...he wrote some nonsense about >Indira Gandhi in "Midnights Children" and she responded by suing him >on "defamation" grounds; Rushdie jee was forced to apologize and accept >that the fact that he had passed off *fiction* about Indira Gandhi as >*fact*...... > > >As far as the provincialism thing is concerned, Nirad jee confines >himself to Bengal..Rushdie declares very confidently that the best >writing in India is in English and URdu( as announced in the NYer >last year, a very interesting coincidence being that these are only two >languages that he knows)..has this creature read anything, in say, >Kannada( with 6 Jnanpiths) or Malayalam( with 4 Jnanpiths). Does this >creatureeven know where these languages are spoken? His knowledge of >Indian history and geography is terrible...he gets the date of the >construction of the Babri MAsjid wrong by a whole century!!!! >(This is in his latest work "The Moor's last sigh!") ><herbackground or motives, and I shall certainly take time now to find >out a bit more. But I did read her book years ago, and remember coming >awaywith the sense of someone who had come far closer than most people >to the disease and poverty in the India of her time, and who found it an >affront to her sense of common humanity.>> > > >Please read C.S.Ranga Iyer's "Father India" which is a good rebuttal >of "Mother India". As for her finding "disease in India an affront >to humanity", all that I can say is that Mahatma Gandhi, whose >humanitarian approach/credentials can hardly be doubted, pronounced the >following judgement on her book "A Drain Inspectors Report!" >THe 18th century Punjabi mystic Bulleh Shah tells us time and again "You >reach outfor what flies in the skies, but overlook what you have at >home"..verypertinent in the case of Katherine Mayo...the good lady >journeyed to India to discover slavery, poverty and what have you...what >a waste of time and money when better examples could have been found >among the African-Americans in the South. It is said that Winston >Churchillwas asked( when on a visit to America) as to why the condition >of the Indians was so bad/ why were they being persecuted ? Pat came his >reply "Which Indians are you taking about? Indians in >India or Indians in America?"( refering to native Indians)...The likes >of Mayo would do themselves a lot of good by reflecting upon this >statement..... > > > I can hold forth on this topic, my friend, but as said before, this >is essentially off topic and I wouldn't like to bore you any more than I >have. But I do hope the people whom I've quoted to back up my statement >will convince you that there is some depth and meaning in what I said > > >REgards, >Krishna > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From cnarayan at UCLINK2.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Feb 16 16:28:19 1998 From: cnarayan at UCLINK2.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan Raghava Narayan) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 08:28:19 -0800 Subject: Chess in India In-Reply-To: <01BD3AFE.66F3CD80@annexr3-4.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE> Message-ID: <161227035721.23782.366995627007292143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A comprehensive (for the time) account of catura_nga can be found in Manmohan Ghosh's critical edition of SUlapA.ni's catura_ngadIpikA: a manual of four-handed chess(Calcutta Sanskrit Series No.XXI, 1936). As a matter of fact, in a quick scan of this edition, Ghosh does mention the "earliest reference to chess" as occurring in the KarmAmak-i-ArtakshAtr-i-PApakAn, a Pahlavi romance. If you need more info from this edition, please contact me. chandan &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*& Chandan R. Narayan 510.642.4551 (work) 510.770.1734 (home) From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Feb 16 17:03:25 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 11:03:25 -0600 Subject: Chess in India Message-ID: <161227035725.23782.15297802281496214518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This from an old Indology posting. I think M. L. P. Patterson's South Asian civilzations: A bibliographic synthesis and Bibliography of Asian studies, annual volumes will have more citations. Regards, N. Ganesan **********************************8************************************** Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 11:33:57 +0100 (MET) From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Subject: board-games: two articles Two articles on "Sanskrit-studies and Board Games" appeared at a place where Sanskritists interested in the subject will perhaps not start searching, viz. in the IIAS Working Papers Series, vol. 3, New Approaches to Board Games Research: Asian Origins and Future Perspectives. Editor: A.J. de Voogt. Publisher: International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515, 2300 RA Leiden. The book contains the following parts: I: Introducing Board Games; II: Descriptive Research and Board Games; III: Archaeology and Board Games; IV: Sanskrit Studies and Board Games; V: Computer Science and Board Games; VI: Philosophy and Board Games. The articles in part IV are "The literary sources of Indian Chess and related board games" by Andreas Bock-Raming, and "Antiquity of Indian Board Games - a new approach" by C. Panduranga Bhatta. Unfortunately, the editor did not care to get all diacritics of Sanskrit words right. Jan Houben, research fellow IIAS From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Feb 16 16:52:58 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 11:52:58 -0500 Subject: negations and their names Message-ID: <161227035723.23782.4020223940144576339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recently was warned by Katsura Shoryu that it is incorrect to write a hyphen in the expression Paryudasa- and Prasajya-pratisedha. According to Katsura, "there is no cp. like 'paryudasa-pratisedha'. 'paryudasa' means 'negation.'" However, I have found the term in Mahavyutpatti 4510; to this Katsura suggests it may be a retranslation from Tibetan. OK. Again, I pointed out that in Frits Staals' Reader in the Skt. Grammarians, p. 496, note 55, so great an authority as Louis Renou uses the same term. OK. Even Homer nods. QUESTION: does the compound paryudaasa-pratis.edha exist in actual Sanskrit texts? (I would expect that if it comes up, it would be in grammar or logic, but any actual attestation would be of interest. ) Much out of my depth, jonathan Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 16 18:25:31 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 13:25:31 -0500 Subject: negations and their names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035731.23782.8988291186130985085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not come across the term paryudAsa-pratizedha in my reading of Sanskrit texts. The etymology of the word paryudAsa makes it clear that it refers to exclusion of an item. At least in the discussions in the Sanskrit grammatical texts, it is clear that cases of paryudAsa have a positive meaning: abrAhmaNam Anaya "bring someone other than a Brahmin", and this does not end with "do not bring a Brahmin". Within the context of Panini's rules, an expression like abrAhmaNa refers to someone other than a Brahman, but someone who is similar to a Brahman in other respects (cf. na~nivyuktam anyasadRSAdhikaraNe, Panini), e.g. a Kshatriya etc. Cases of prasajyapratizedha on the other hand result in a negative result: do not do something or other, kriyayA saha yatra na~n. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > I recently was warned by Katsura Shoryu that it is incorrect to write a > hyphen in the expression Paryudasa- and Prasajya-pratisedha. According to > Katsura, "there is no cp. like 'paryudasa-pratisedha'. 'paryudasa' means > 'negation.'" > > However, I have found the term in Mahavyutpatti 4510; to this Katsura > suggests it may be a retranslation from Tibetan. OK. Again, I pointed out > that in Frits Staals' Reader in the Skt. Grammarians, p. 496, note 55, so > great an authority as Louis Renou uses the same term. OK. Even Homer nods. > > QUESTION: does the compound paryudaasa-pratis.edha exist in actual Sanskrit > texts? (I would expect that if it comes up, it would be in grammar or > logic, but any actual attestation would be of interest. ) > > Much out of my depth, jonathan > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu > From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Mon Feb 16 04:32:28 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 13:32:28 +0900 Subject: negations and their names Message-ID: <161227035738.23782.6011368287261950526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > > > I recently was warned by Katsura Shoryu that it is incorrect to write a > > hyphen in the expression Paryudasa- and Prasajya-pratisedha. According to > > Katsura, "there is no cp. like 'paryudasa-pratisedha'. 'paryudasa' means > > 'negation.'" > > > > However, I have found the term in Mahavyutpatti 4510; to this Katsura > > suggests it may be a retranslation from Tibetan. OK. Again, I pointed out > > that in Frits Staals' Reader in the Skt. Grammarians, p. 496, note 55, so > > great an authority as Louis Renou uses the same term. OK. Even Homer nods. > > > > QUESTION: does the compound paryudaasa-pratis.edha exist in actual Sanskrit > > texts? (I would expect that if it comes up, it would be in grammar or > > logic, but any actual attestation would be of interest. ) I have never come across the compound paryudaasa-pratis.edha in a Sanskrit text, that is, in Buddhist writings on the subject-matter of apoha or anupalabdhi, and in related discussions (about abhaava and anupalabdhi) in Nyaaya or Miimaam.saa-treatises. It seems to me that the lexical asymmetry between the two technical terms paryudaasa and prasajyapratis.edha was definitely perceived, and occasionally deemed problematic. However, the commonly followed strategy to balance it out was cutting off the "pratis.edha" of prasajyapr. (which leads to constructions such as "paryudaasapaks.e ...., prasajyapaks.e tu ...", or other occurrences of "prasajya" in the sense of "prasajyapratis.edha"). The other option, that is, adding "pratis.edha" to "paryudaasa", does not seem to have been realized. The Tibetan translations "ma yin dgag" and "med dgag" (for paryudaasa/prasajyapratis.edha) are based on conceptual content rather than on an analysis of the terms into component parts, and I think Katsura is justified in considerind MVy 'paryudaasa-pratis.edha' as a retranslation (and not a good one at that). It might be of interest that Prof. Kajiyama has raised the same question at the last Dharmakiirti-conference (November last year in Hiroshima), and to my recollection, nobody could come up with a reference for "paryudaasapratis.edha". -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Feb 16 20:01:05 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 14:01:05 -0600 Subject: Chess in India Message-ID: <161227035732.23782.15677545349727244083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an article by Paul Thieme, "Chess and Backgammon (Tric-Trac) in Sanskrit Literature." Orig. publ. Indological Studies in Honor of W. Norman Brown. AOS 1962, also in Thieme's Kleine Schriften, vol.2. Wiesbaden 1971. Edeltraud Harzer Clear From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 16 23:20:38 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 15:20:38 -0800 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) Message-ID: <161227035736.23782.2017903175981298226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk says: >On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, S Krishna wrote: <> Dominik: Sorry, I can't let that one pass. First, freedom of speech allows you toimpute "incentive" to whomever you like, of course. But if you expect to have your claims taken seriously in an academic forum like INDOLOGY, you can't just present condemnations of that kind without justification. You have to back up your claim with genuine scholarship on the topic,especially if your claim is that controversial. <> This is the only thing, Dominik, on which I agree with you...Since you are looking for "genuine scholarship" on the subject, I will being up different people/scholars/editors and leave it to you to decide what is what....(I assume you want to know about Rushdie and MAyo since I've given the name of the text and specific topic on the basis of which the comments on Nirad babu were made) I had said that Nirad babu's works are a more academic variety of Rushdie's works and MAyo's works in that they misrepresent things, and are known for their invective..... I will also prove that Rushdie jee is as provincial as Nirad Babu (The difference being that Nirad babu thinks that Bengal can speak for India, Rushdie thinks that Indian/Urdu writers are the best in the whole of the Indian sub-continent) In the case of Rushdie, the first thing that one notices on reading his works i.e. Midnight's Children, Shame and Satanic Verses is the frequent use of four letter words...some soul once counted the number of four letter words that are found all over Satanic Verses and found that a four letter word could be expected atleast once in every page. I am not sure of what is the literary purpose of all this..to prove his expertise/familarity with four letter words? Well, if this what he was trying to prove, I suppose that he can take pride in the fact that his vocabulary would put the fisherwomen of Billingsgate to shame, the difference being that they are not paid millions of pounds to swear at and abuse people right, left and center. Trevor-Roper for example says that if Rushdie were to be hit in some back street, then his "Manners would improve"..this is the result of his being so free with invective... The main thread in "Satanic Verses" is the Al-Gharaniq incident in the Quran about the admissibility of the Gods MAnat, Al Lat and Al Uzza in ISlam. Even assuming and granting that the incident is true( a controversial assumption in itself), Rushdie generalizes the whole thing( the actual lines that were abrogated are just two and form part of just one ayat in one surah) to suggest that the whole of the Quran was revealed by the Devil( it parallels Nirad Babu's technique of lifting a single practice from the Vaishnavas of Bengal, and then generalizing it to be representative of all the Vaishnavas). This is a fine case of mixing fact with fiction to brew a strong concoction that primarily serves the purpose of getting the cash registers to ring. As you may be knowing,there exists in London a very elite club consisting of journalists, academics and novelists called the Page 15 club" whose common feature is that they've never read beyondPage 15 of any of Rushdie's books. The books they tell us, are "dense", "convoluted", "unreadable" and "full of vile abuse". (This fact was referred to by the NYer which ran an article on Rushdie ( Will dig up the exact reference if you want me to)) As far as his proclivity towards sensationalism is concerned, we have Roald Dahl who assures us that Rushdie "deliberately" sensationalized "Satanic Verses" in order to make it a best seller. The same holds true of Nirad Babu, who makes the claim that the Brahmins tampered with things in order to make Sanskrit look greater and older; as inscriptions indicate, it should be Prakrit that came in earlier... such stuff will immideatly[sic] increase sales since all DMK wallahs, and JNU based historians will make a bee line for purchasing this book since it supports their own convoluted brand of thinking...Net result: Sales go up and one achieves name and fame the easy way... These are the commonalities between the worthy souls of Rushdie and Nirad babu, both of whom personify the antiquated concept of the Brown Saheb... Dominik: <> The difficulty, dear Dominik, is that much of the invective is actually in URdu/Hindi..please reread "Satanic Verses" and count the number oftimes he uses the Hindi expression "BehanC****" ( and also find out the meaning, since I would desist from translating such stuff here)...non-Hindi speakers may think of it is as a very cute, exotic kind of expression, but I am sure that all Hindi speakers would beg to disagree..... As for his *witty*( to quote you)versification, you seem to think: "Being God's postman is no fun, yaaar! Butbutbut!.........(Can't remember what comes here) God knows whose postman I've been" (I've paraphrased the verse since I don't the book with me right now) is an example of splendid versification and rivals Edward Lear's Limericks, but I ( and I'm in distinguished company here, Khuswant Singh thinks so too) think it the kind of doggerel that would do an adolescent proud..it is certainly not the kind of stuff that would help win an author the Baker Prize or the Noble Prize( he was nominated for the Noble Prize 2 or 3 years ago) And yes, the whole thing is *fiction*...he wrote some nonsense about Indira Gandhi in "Midnights Children" and she responded by suing him on "defamation" grounds; Rushdie jee was forced to apologize and accept that the fact that he had passed off *fiction* about Indira Gandhi as *fact*...... As far as the provincialism thing is concerned, Nirad jee confines himself to Bengal..Rushdie declares very confidently that the best writing in India is in English and URdu( as announced in the NYer last year, a very interesting coincidence being that these are only two languages that he knows)..has this creature read anything, in say, Kannada( with 6 Jnanpiths) or Malayalam( with 4 Jnanpiths). Does this creatureeven know where these languages are spoken? His knowledge of Indian history and geography is terrible...he gets the date of the construction of the Babri MAsjid wrong by a whole century!!!! (This is in his latest work "The Moor's last sigh!") <> Please read C.S.Ranga Iyer's "Father India" which is a good rebuttal of "Mother India". As for her finding "disease in India an affront to humanity", all that I can say is that Mahatma Gandhi, whose humanitarian approach/credentials can hardly be doubted, pronounced the following judgement on her book "A Drain Inspectors Report!" THe 18th century Punjabi mystic Bulleh Shah tells us time and again "You reach outfor what flies in the skies, but overlook what you have at home"..verypertinent in the case of Katherine Mayo...the good lady journeyed to India to discover slavery, poverty and what have you...what a waste of time and money when better examples could have been found among the African-Americans in the South. It is said that Winston Churchillwas asked( when on a visit to America) as to why the condition of the Indians was so bad/ why were they being persecuted ? Pat came his reply "Which Indians are you taking about? Indians in India or Indians in America?"( refering to native Indians)...The likes of Mayo would do themselves a lot of good by reflecting upon this statement..... I can hold forth on this topic, my friend, but as said before, this is essentially off topic and I wouldn't like to bore you any more than I have. But I do hope the people whom I've quoted to back up my statement will convince you that there is some depth and meaning in what I said REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Feb 16 20:51:32 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 15:51:32 -0500 Subject: negations and their names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035734.23782.10623195915259194385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear in my posting. My question is not about the logic or meaning of these two types of negations -- this much is (relatively) clear. There is no cow in this room does not mean there is a horse, while the cow is not brown does mean it is black or white or some other color. Fine. The question is: **can one say paryudaasa-prati.sedha?** (All by the way: is not Madhav's pratizedha an example of Homer nodding?! In the romanization system he uses must it not be pratiSedha? I well remember from Madhav's Skt. teaching the RUKI rule for retroflexion!! And a propos Srini's slipping elephants, in Japanese one says Even a monkey can fall from a tree, and (more Buddhistically) even Kobo Daishi (Kukai -- the great Japanese culture hero, and putative inventor of the japanese hiragana alphabet) can make a slip of the brush -- some wits make this into: even Kobo Daishi can fall from a tree ;-) ) Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE Mon Feb 16 15:53:06 1998 From: ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 16:53:06 +0100 Subject: Chess in India Message-ID: <161227035717.23782.14729844114414525437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I am searching for Sanskrit literature about chess, it doesn't matter from which period. Does anyone know where I can begin to search ? Are there any references from the Indian side regarding the story of the middlepersian text called ' wizAriSn i Catrang ud nihiSn i nEwardaSEr', which tells the story of the Indian King Sacidarm (sometimes Iranists refer to him as Divsaram or Devasarm; in the text: 'sacidarm i wuzurg, SahryAr i hindUgAn-Sa'; transliterated as "scyd'lm") who sends a chess-board for the Sassanian King HusrOg anOSag ruwAn without sending him the rules. HusrOg is asked to find the rules for this play. It is meant to be a test for the Sassanian king. HusrOg or Khosrow I (Anushirvan) ruled from 531 AC to 579 A.C. Nyberg believes that 'Sacidarm' is the middlepersian version for Skr. 'Satyadharma'. Here the beginning of the story in the translation of J. C. Tarapore, Bombay, 1932: (1) It is said thus that during the reign of Khosraw of immortal soul, Divsaram, a great king of India, for the trial of the wisdom and knowledge of the Iranians and for securing his own benefit set up the game of Chatrang (or chess); 16 pieces were made of diamonds and 16 of red ruby. (2) With that game of chess were sent 1200 camels loaded with gold and silver and jewels and pearls and clothes, 90 elephants which carried selected things came with them and Takhtritus, who was the vizier among the Indians, came with them. (3) In the letter it was written thus: "As your name is the King of Kings, all your emperorship over us connotes that your wise men should be wiser than ours. Either you send us an explanation of this game of chess or send revenue and tribute to us." Are there references in the history of India which refer to such relationship between India and Persia ? Any comments on this topic are appreciated. Thanks in advance and with best wishes, Arash Zeini From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 16 17:33:04 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 17:33:04 +0000 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) In-Reply-To: <19980216021406.28608.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035727.23782.13156767101388993487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, S Krishna wrote: > I find his [Chaudhuri's] works a more academic version of Katherine > Mayo's "Mother India" or Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses", people whose > main incentive for writing seems to be indulging in invective... Sorry, I can't let that one pass. First, freedom of speech allows you to impute "incentive" to whomever you like, of course. But if you expect to have your claims taken seriously in an academic forum like INDOLOGY, you can't just present condemnations of that kind without justification. You have to back up your claim with genuine scholarship on the topic, especially if your claim is that controversial. At the risk of starting a flame war on a topic rather inappropriate for INDOLOGY, I have to say that until Khomeni issued his fatwah, it never occurred to me, or apparently most people including Muslims in the Middle-East or India, that Rushdie's book was anything but a witty, flamboyant, funny, and closely-observed piece of well-written fiction, very much in the vein of his earlier Midnight's Children. I have always felt that his editors were rather lenient with him, and that the book would have been much better if it had been about one-third shorter. But that's another issue. Khomeni issued his fatwah for his own reasons which seem to have been determined to some extent, at least, but the very local political situation in which he found himself in Qom, rather than by the contents of Rushdie's book. Rushdie's book does contain a lot of prose lampooning various people, public and private, contemporary and historical; this material is by and large extremely funny, and was explicitly intended to be so. Those who first reacted negatively to the book, like some of Mrs Thatcher's supporters, tended to be seen at the time as lacking in a sense of humour or the ability to take a tease in good part. The book is certainly not full of invective, nor does that appear to form any part of Rushdie's programme as a writer. Katherine Mayo is a very interesting case. I don't know much about her background or motives, and I shall certainly take time now to find out a bit more. But I did read her book years ago, and remember coming away with the sense of someone who had come far closer than most people to the disease and poverty in the India of her time, and who found it an affront to her sense of common humanity. Her goal in writing Mother India, she said in her introduction (p.18), was to hold up a mirror to India. She went on, "I am fully aware of the resentments I shall incur: of the accusations of muck-raking; of injustice; of material-mindedness; of lack of sympathy; of falsehood perhaps; perhaps of prurience. But the fact of having seen conditins and their bearings, and of being in a position ot present them, would seem to deprive one of the right to indulge a personal reluctance to incur consequences." She was writing about life-threatening issues of public-health and education, particularly as they affected untouchables, poor women, and children. Her book is strongly-worded in places, and she had views about Gandhi which could not have been popular amongst his supporters in 1927 when her book was published. I can think of several criticisms one could make about her work, but althought the book does contain a great deal of open criticsm of social conditions in India, having her "main incentive in writing ... indulging in invective" does not seem to be borne out by an actual reading of her book. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 16 17:39:32 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 17:39:32 +0000 Subject: Chess in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035729.23782.10719713661442212194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also S. R. Iyer, _Indian Chess: bhaaratiiya catura"ngam ("satara.mja); as embodied in the Kridakausalyam of Pt. Harikrishna Sharma Jyotishacharya_ (Nag Publishers, Delhi, 1982). Apparently reprinted from a 1900 edition of the Venkateshwara Steam Press, Bombay. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 16 16:45:19 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 21:45:19 +0500 Subject: `Vedic' vs Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <199802161208.HAA09991@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227035719.23782.2009408621642950603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:08 AM 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >The following is a post in an Usenet group I made. >I am curious about this claim that the term `Vedic >Sanskrit' is incorrect. What do `real' Indologists think? > >Regards >-Nath > >From: Vidhyanath Rao >Subject: Re: IE homeland: Synthesis >Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 6:50 AM > > >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote in message <34f1308f.488327551 at news.wxs.nl>... > >>I have been adviced by specialists *never* to utter the word "Vedic >>Sanskrit". It's Vedic, or Sanskrit. The language codified by Panini >>is Sanskrit, and there is no reason to assume it wasn't something >>close to his native tongue. > > >I am curious: Just who are these ``experts'', and how much do they >know about Panini? I have seen blunders committed by those who >one are respected indologists. For example, once Jan Gonda >asserted that in a vartika, `lokavijnaate' is used as an explanation >of `anadyatane' [the former is qualifies `parok.se', occuring in >the vaartika and in a different suutra of Panini]. > >And do these same experts not use `Greek' for the language of >Homer? Do they not use `Tamil' for the language of Sangam >literature? [Mcdonell describes the difference between >Vedic and Classical Sanskrit as similar to the difference >between Homeric and Hellenistic Greek. Sangam and >Modern Tamil differ as much as Vedic and early Prakrits.] > >While few would go as far as Bronkhorst (in a paper in IIJ in the >early 1970's) and claim that `Vedic' texts, in an archaising >dialect, were still being composed in Panini's day, I fail to see >how anyone with firsthand knowledge of both Panini and the >Vedic texts can deny that the langauge described Panini is >closer to the latter Vedic texts than to that of the epics of other >medieval texts. In particular, in the matter of the verb system, >Panini's rules describe something very close to that of Aitreya >and Satapatha Brahmanas. To give one example: The so-called >conditional is used only in conditional sentences in medieval texts. >Panini simply says that it is used whereever the optative would be, >if the event did/will not take place. The Veic use conforms to >Panini's rule, and in fact, the standard example, `naavindat yad >aho.syat' is described in precisely the same terms by Mcdonell >and others. > > > >In the last century, there was a tendency to imply that the Vedas, >especially the Rgveda were non-Indian. It seems to me that the >statement Vidal made is a residue of that. The unfortunate >failure of Indologists to replace Whitney' grammar prevents the >removal of the 19th century prejudices. In particular, the modern >choronology is incompatible with the idea that Panini was or >should be describing the language of epics etc, which in their >present form are latter than Panini by 600 years or more. >Yet people go on assuming that Panini's grammar is a grammar >of medieval Sanskrit, and thinking that gap between middle and >late Vedic texts and Panini is as great as the gap between >Rgveda and Mahabharata/Ramayana. This is reinforced by the >usual selection of reading material for Sanskrit classes. Any >attempt to question conclusions arising from such faulty >approach is just shrugged off, especially if they come persons >of Indian origin. The exclusive use of material by those with >axes to grind will never be tolerated if those affected were any >group except Hindus. And people wonder why Hindus get angry >at Indologists. > >Thank you for listening and I will now get off the soapbox. > > patanjali atha zabdAnuzAsanam. kESAM sabdAnAm? laukikAnAm vaidikAnAM ca. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ regards, sarma. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Feb 17 13:40:16 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 07:40:16 -0600 Subject: K. Mayo Message-ID: <161227035754.23782.4045198742557858408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Few years ago, browsed thru' a paper on K. Mayo. A feminist reading saying that Katherine Mayo did not have freedom in 1920s to criticize the American society. So, she chose India where social status of women was bad. In a collection of articles, within last 10 years. Must be from a US univ., Wrote down the reference somewhere. Can anyone tell the reference? Thanks, n. ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Feb 17 14:34:50 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 08:34:50 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035756.23782.2610538428076263416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Both forms and all the related names for the Koel or Eudynamis >scolopaceus (Linn.) in modern Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages are of >course derived from Sanskrit kokila, Prakrit kOila, *kOyila. > >Erik Seldeslachts kuyil could have arisen independently in Dravidian. Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (Revised edition) 1984 has the entry no. 1764 as: 1764 Ta. kuyil koel, Indian cuckoo, Eudynamis honorata; (kuyilv-, kuyin2R-) to call, whoop, halloo; utter, tell; kuyiRRu (kuyiRRi-) to tell, utter. Ma. kuyil, kuzil Indian cuckoo, Cuculus or E. Orientalis ... In connection with the meaning to call, etc., Dr. Bh. Krishnamurti in a posting on 1/17/98 said that the root "*ku:(y) occurs in all subgroups of Dravidian (DEDR 1868; Skt. ku:jita- is said to have been derived from Dravidian)." kuyil could be related to this root. We must consider another possibility. In Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics, T. Burrow says in p. 198 that Sanskrit kokila which is attested from mahAbhArata onward is from Dravidian. N. Ganesan From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Feb 17 08:52:38 1998 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 09:52:38 +0100 Subject: Chess in India In-Reply-To: <01BD3AFE.66F3CD80@annexr3-4.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE> Message-ID: <161227035742.23782.3968674583751892438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also: Andreas Bock-Raming: "The varieties of Indian Chess through the ages", in: Asiatische Studien / ?tudes Asiatiques 49 (1995), pp. 309-331. A. Bock-Raming: "Maanasollaasa 5,560-623: ein bisher unbeachtet gebliebener Text zum indischen Schachspiel, uebersetzt, kommentiert und interpretiert", in: Indo-Iranian Journal 39 (1996), pp. 1-40. Best wishes, Roland Steiner -- Dr. Roland Steiner Fachgebiet Indologie FB 11 der Philipps-Universitaet Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6 D-35032 Marburg (Briefanschrift / for letters) D-35039 Marburg (Paketanschrift / for parcels) Germany Tel.: +49-6421-282184 Fax: +49-6421-284995 email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~steiner/ From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Feb 17 18:29:04 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:29:04 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035764.23782.3222327599404403842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 08:34 AM 2/17/98 -0600, you wrote: >>kuyil could have arisen independently in Dravidian..... >>In connection with the meaning to call, etc., >>Dr. Bh. Krishnamurti in a posting on 1/17/98 said that >>the root "*ku:(y) occurs in all subgroups of Dravidian >>(DEDR 1868; Skt. ku:jita- is said to have been derived from Dravidian)." >>kuyil could be related to this root. >>.............. >>We must consider another possibility. >>In Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics, T. Burrow >>says in p. 198 that Sanskrit kokila which is attested >>from mahAbhArata onward is from Dravidian. >>............... >Even if we assume that kokila in sanskrit is of dravidian origin, >the word koel in english is more likely to be derived from telugu >kOyila or hindi koyel rather than kuyil of tamil from the affinity >sounds. It is amazing how, what starts of as guesswork, changes into attestations and then turns into undisputed fact a couple of iterations later with a little bit of tinkering here and there and hardly any kind of proof or verification. As the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory chokes,sputters and dies, so will its other face,the artificial Aryan(or the PC indo-european)/Dravidian language divide die under the weight of its own contradictions and distortions. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 17 12:33:16 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:33:16 +0000 Subject: Nirad Chaudhuri (Was Re: Greek and Latin in India) In-Reply-To: <19980216232038.25384.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035746.23782.9431929636932297069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, S Krishna wrote: > I can hold forth on this topic, my friend, but as said before, this > is essentially off topic and I wouldn't like to bore you any more than I > have. But I do hope the people whom I've quoted to back up my statement > will convince you that there is some depth and meaning in what I said Thank you for your reply. Like you, I think I'll hold off at this point. I'm afraid that your remarks on Rushdie, Mayo, Gandhi, etc., confirm my sense that we are miles apart in our understanding and interpretation of the literature, politics, and history of 20th century India. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 17 12:35:33 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:35:33 +0000 Subject: Sources for Hindu divination In-Reply-To: <11571157709238@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227035748.23782.3440126808342102226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Martin Gansten wrote: > >>Does anybody out there know of any scholarly work/s on Hindu techniques of > divination, apart from David Pingree's on ancient astrology? You will have to judge for yourself about scholarship, but there's a book in Penguin (or Arkana?) by Robert Svoboda and someone else on this topic. I think it's calle _Light on Life_. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From bvi at AFN.ORG Tue Feb 17 17:45:11 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:45:11 -0500 Subject: Biographical data on major Bhagavatam commentators Message-ID: <161227035761.23782.10998851630709630014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! Do you know if anyone has written a history of the Srimad Bhagavatam which contains biographical data on its major commentators? Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From mgansten at SBBS.SE Tue Feb 17 11:57:11 1998 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:57:11 +0100 Subject: Sources for Hindu divination Message-ID: <161227035744.23782.7543235665536142814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is a question I recently posted on RISA-L. The great silence that followed is perhaps an answer in itself, but I still thought I'd give it a try on Indology-L, too: >>Does anybody out there know of any scholarly work/s on Hindu techniques of divination, apart from David Pingree's on ancient astrology? I am trying to discern to what extent this particular aspect of Hinduism has been explored, and so far I've come up with very little. Haven't scholars of religion taken any interest in this topic?>> Best regards, Martin Gansten From arbs at EROLS.COM Tue Feb 17 18:07:50 1998 From: arbs at EROLS.COM (Asian Rare Books) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 13:07:50 -0500 Subject: 4 Alphabetum pubs of Sac. Cong. Propag. Fide Message-ID: <161227035762.23782.644936949165075038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We have these four South Asian titles published in the late 18th c. at Rome by the Sac. Congregation de Propag. Fide as follows: Alphabetum Grandonico-Malabaricum (1772) Alphabetum Tangutum sive Tibetanum (1773) all very good Alphabetum Brammhanicum seu Indostanum (1771) wrappers bound into Alphabetum Barmanorum seu Regni new cloth Avensis (1787) These are available for sale by Asian Rare Books. Please inquire and we will email you details of price, etc. Stephen Feldman/ASIAN RARE BOOKS http://www.erols.com/arbs/ FAX 1 212 316 3408 From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Feb 17 12:56:16 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 13:56:16 +0100 Subject: Sources for Hindu divination In-Reply-To: <11571157709238@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227035750.23782.2016377900952083518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten asks: >The following is a question I recently posted on RISA-L. The great silence >that followed is perhaps an answer in itself, but I still thought I'd give >it a try on Indology-L, too: > >>>Does anybody out there know of any scholarly work/s on Hindu techniques of >divination, apart from David Pingree's on ancient astrology? I am trying to >discern to what extent this particular aspect of Hinduism has been explored, >and so far I've come up with very little. Haven't scholars of religion taken >any interest in this topic?>> You find some references in Jan Gonda: Die Religionen Indiens, II, Der j?ngere Hinduismus, Stuttgart 1963 (I think there came a second edition in the meantime), p. 257. He mentions among others: E. Thurston, Omens and superstitions of Southern India, London-Leipzig, 1912; J.v.Negelein, Der Traumschluessel des Jagaddeva, Giessen, 1912. You also find some observations in J.J.Meyer, Trilogie altindischer M?chte und Feste der Vegetation, Z?rich, 1937 (see Vol.3, p. 309, headword 'Mantik'). I am sure there has been written a lot about these things, and you should not take 'the great silence' of RISA-L as an answer! Best regards Georg v. Simson From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Tue Feb 17 15:14:24 1998 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 15:14:24 +0000 Subject: Latin and Greek in India In-Reply-To: <34E5F0B3.4429@micron.net> Message-ID: <161227035757.23782.12535557989993581858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ramohun Roy is certainly relevant to the history of Indian interest in Latin and Greek, though it is uncertain how much of them he knew himself. Unfortunately, Joanna Kirkpatrick has picked up an exaggerated picture of his scholarship. _The Precepts of Jesus_ (1820) does not itself show any knowledge of Latin, Greek or Hebrew; it is merely a compilation from the King James (1611) version of the Gospels. Greek and Hebrew appear in his _Second Appeal to the Christian Public in Defence of the Precepts of Jesus_ (1821) and his _Final Appeal..._ (1823). Even here, we should not suppose that he thought up all his arguments from unaided first-hand reading of the texts. The ground had been well trodden by Unitarian scholars in the West. There is some material on this in my _Rammohun Roy in Hindu and Christian Tradition_ (Newcastle upon Tyne, Grevatt and Grevatt, 1993), but there is room for more research on Rammohun's place in the history of Unitarian biblical scholarship. By the way, Rammohun's position as dewan was not in Calcutta. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, jkirk at micron.net wrote: > This topic has jogged my interest and I am now pursuing my way slowly > through some possible leads. Thus, I was reminded that Raja Ram Mohan > Roy--having already learned Arabic and Sanskrit, (he "grew up" with > Persian), some time after 1914 when he moved to Calcutta, studied and > learned Latin, Greek and Hebrew, becoming quite proficient in the last > two, such that he made extensive use of them in writing his PRECEPTS OF > JESUS, The Guide to Peace and Happiness....Boston: Christian Register > Office, 1828, see Preface by Thomas Rees, Secretary to the Unitarian > Society, p.iv. This book was a polemic against Christian > Trinitarianism. > When he was appointed Dewan--collector of revenue-- in Calcutta, he also > became adept in English, having begun the study of it some years > earlier. > Surely there were also other luminaries of the Renaisance who studied > European classical languages? > > Nirad Chaudhuri often sprinkled his accounts with both Latin and French, > but I haven't yet found out if he actually studied Latin, or if he > simply used a phrasebook to create his sophisticated effects. > > Joanna Kirkpatrick > From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Feb 17 20:32:44 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 15:32:44 -0500 Subject: Bibliography of Max Muller Message-ID: <161227035769.23782.16092726719635222502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A patron is trying to find out if Max Muller routinely wrote books reviews, and in particular one of Alfred Percy Sinnett's book Esoteric Buddhism. The bibliography of MM's writings in his autobiography Life and Letters of the Rt. Hon. Friedrich Max Muller is very short and confines itself almost entirely to independent books. The patron is looking through MM's various collections of essays on his own. Did Muller write little in journals? Is there a detailed bibliography somewhere? Thanks for any help. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Feb 17 21:45:07 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 15:45:07 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035773.23782.9563064372758785873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Subrahmanya wrote: > As the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory chokes,sputters and dies, so will its > other face, the artificial Aryan(or the PC indo-european)/Dravidian language > divide die under the weight of its own contradictions and distortions. Even after revisionist attempts, majority of academics are confidant and write that Aryans migrated into India and not the other way around. That is., Aryans did not spread out from India. If there is no divide between Indo-Iranian languages and Dravidian languages, can Tamil (for eg.,) be derived from Sanskrit? N. Ganesan From jkirk at MICRON.NET Tue Feb 17 22:45:46 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk@micron.net) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 15:45:46 -0700 Subject: Latin and Greek in India Message-ID: <161227035778.23782.6513984608981113954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thank D.H. Killingley for his comment on Rammohun Roy's scholarship and his citation to his book. The two titles he thinks I was not aware of are contained in the 1828 edition of this material, which I cited in a shorthand manner with the one title. J. Kirkpatrick From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Feb 17 21:32:09 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 16:32:09 -0500 Subject: Chess in India Message-ID: <161227035771.23782.10904805016299256753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some misc. references on Indian chess off FirstSearch (OCLC). The Accession Number equals the OCLC number an interlibrary loan librarian would want. ACCESSION: 12759669 AUTHOR: White, John Griswold, 1845-1928. TITLE: A manuscript giving a detailed description of chess passages in manuscripts found in 145 European and Indian libraries, with the names of persons underlined in red ink; prefaced with an index of names. PLACE: Cleveland, Ohio, YEAR: 1928 PUB TYPE: Archive/Manuscript Control FORMAT: 2 v. Next Record ACCESSION: 6590289 AUTHOR: Thomas, Frederick William, 1867-1956. TITLE: The Indian game of chess. PLACE: [Leipzig, YEAR: 1898 uuuu PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 271-272 p. NOTES: Extract from the Zeitschrift der Deutschen morgenlandischen gesellschaft, v. 25. Next Record ACCESSION: 5695421 AUTHOR: Jones, William, Sir, 1746-1794. TITLE: Poems, consisting chiefly of translations from the Asiatick languages. To which are added two essays. PLACE: Oxford, PUBLISHER: Clarendon Press, YEAR: 1772 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: viii, 217 p. NOTES: Solima, an Arabian eclogue.--The palace of fortune, an Indian tale.--The seven fountains, an Eastern allegory.--A Persian song of Hafez.--An ode to Petrarch.--Laura, an elegy, from Petrarch.-- A Turkish ode on the spring by Mesihi.--Arcadia, a pastoral poem.- -Caissa, or The game at Chess.--Essays.--On the poetry of the Eastern nations.--On the arts, commonly called imitative. SUBJECT: Oriental poetry -- Translations into English. English poetry -- Translations from Oriental literature. Next Record ACCESSION: 5169326 AUTHOR: Jones, William, Sir, 1746-1794. TITLE: The Indian game of chess, PLACE: Edinburgh, PUBLISHER: Priv. printed for the Aungervyle society, YEAR: 1883 uuuu PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 36 p. 4 pl. SERIES: Aungervyle Society. Reprint, no. 13 NOTES: "Impression limited to 150 copies, of which this is no. 95." Contains also A key to "Epics of the ton," by E. M. Goldsmid. OTHER: Cox, Hiram. Next Record ACCESSION: 5156163 AUTHOR: Jivanji Jamshedji Modi, 1854-1933. TITLE: Firdousi's version of the Indian game of chess; and Cashmere and the ancient Persians; two papers read before the Bombay branch of the Royal Asiatic society. PLACE: Bombay, PUBLISHER: Printed at the Education society's steam press, YEAR: 1896 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: [4], 13, [1], 12 p. SUBJECT: Firdausi. Kashmir. Next Record ACCESSION: 4827442 AUTHOR: Jones, William, Sir, 1746-1794. TITLE: Poems, consisting chiefly of translations from the Asiatick languages. To which are added two essays ... EDITION: The 2d ed. PLACE: London, PUBLISHER: Printed by W. Bowyer and J. Nichols, for N. Conant, YEAR: 1777 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xv, 208 p. 21 cm. NOTES: Solima, an Arabian eclogue.--The palace of fortune, an Indian tale.--The seven fountains, an Eastern allegory.--A Persian song of Hafez.--an ode of Petrarch.--Laura, an elegy.--A Turkish ode on the spring.--The same, in Latin trochaicks.--Arcadia, a pastoral poem.--Caissa, or The game at chess.--Carminum liber.-- On the poetry of the Eastern nations.--On the arts, commonly called imitative. SUBJECT: Oriental poetry. English poetry -- Translations from foreign literature. Oriental poetry -- History and criticism. Next Record ACCESSION: 82740 AUTHOR: Karmarkar, S. P., 1911- TITLE: The Indian chess (budhibal), EDITION: 1st ed. PLACE: [Miraj] YEAR: 1968 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 100 p. illus., ports. 23 cm. NOTES: Pages 93-100 are blank for notes. SUBJECT: Chess -- Variants. Also, there might be something on the subject in this recent publication: Voogt, A., ed. New approaches to board games. Asian origins and future perspectives. Leiden : Internationa Institute for Asian Studies (IIAS) ISBN 90-74917-0-0 IIAS working papers series Dfl. 30,-- PO Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden The Netherlands Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Feb 17 22:03:26 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 17:03:26 -0500 Subject: Chess in India Message-ID: <161227035774.23782.16614964944036461654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The century old but still important works of van der Linde on the history of chess have much on Indian chess literature. L. was helped in his researches L. by Albrecht Weber. I append a list of various versions on L's major works, including microfilmed and reprint eds. Again, these are OCLC FirstSearch records, not Library of Congress records. AUTHOR: Linde, Antonius van der, 1833-1897. TITLE: Geschichte und litteratur des schachspiels PLACE: Berlin, PUBLISHER: J. Springer, YEAR: 1874 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 2 v. front. (v. 2) illus., ports. 26 cm. NOTES: Copy filmed: best copy available, pages 34-105 misnumbered (v. 1). Title in red and black. Microfilm. New York, N.Y. : Columbia University Libraries, 1997. 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm. SUBJECT: Chess -- History. Chess -- Bibliography. Next Record ACCESSION: 29084237 AUTHOR: Linde, Antonius van der, 1833-1897. TITLE: Quellenstudien zur Geschichte des Schachspiels : neudruck der Ausg. 1881. PLACE: Osnabruck : PUBLISHER: Biblio-Verlag, YEAR: 1968 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: vii, 412 p. : ill. ; 25 cm. NOTES: Bibliographical footnotes. SUBJECT: Chess -- History. Chess -- Bibliography. Next Record ACCESSION: 27698889 AUTHOR: Linde, Antonius van der, 1833-1897. TITLE: Quellenstudien zur geschichte des schachspiels PLACE: Berlin, PUBLISHER: J. Springer, YEAR: 1881 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: vii, [1], 412 p. illus. 19 cm. NOTES: Master microform held by: DLC. Microfilm. Washington, D.C., United States Library of Congress, 19--. 1 reel. 35 mm. SUBJECT: Chess -- History. Chess -- Bibliography. Next Record ACCESSION: 8234903 AUTHOR: Linde, Antonius van der, 1833-1897. TITLE: Geschichte und Literatur des Schachspiels / PLACE: Zurich : PUBLISHER: Edition Olms, YEAR: 1981 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xi, 422, 154, xvi, 524 p. : ill., port. ; 23 cm. SERIES: Darstellungen und Quellen zur Geschichte des Schachspiels ; Bd. 20 NOTES: Originally published: Berlin : Springer, 1874. Includes index. ISBN: 3283000794 SUBJECT: Chess -- History. Chess -- Bibliography. Next Record ACCESSION: 6684487 AUTHOR: Linde, Antonius van der, 1833-1897. TITLE: Quellenstudien zur geschichte des schachspiels, PLACE: Berlin, PUBLISHER: J. Springer, YEAR: 1881 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: vii, [1], 412 p. illus. 19 cm. SUBJECT: Chess -- History. Chess -- Bibliography. Next Record ACCESSION: 5619598 AUTHOR: Linde, Antonius van der, 1833-1897. TITLE: Das erste Jartausend der Schachlitteratur (850-1880) : facsimile / PLACE: Yorklyn, Del. : PUBLISHER: Caissa Limited Editions, YEAR: 1979 uuuu PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: [8], 112, [4] p. ; 20 cm. SERIES: Caissa limited editions ; v. 3 ISBN: 9060030214 SUBJECT: Chess -- Bibliography. Next Record ACCESSION: 1319775 AUTHOR: Linde, Antonius van der, 1833-1897. TITLE: Quellenstudien zur Geschichte des Schachspiels. EDITION: Neudruck der Ausg. 1881. PLACE: Osnabruck, PUBLISHER: Biblio-Verlag, YEAR: 1968 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: vii, 412 p. with illus. 25 cm. NOTES: Bibliographical footnotes. SUBJECT: Chess -- History Chess -- Bibliography Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Feb 18 00:23:36 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 18:23:36 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035782.23782.638700509311488259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am afraid Mr. Subrahmanya is dreaming a happy dream. I am very happy to be able to dream along with all Indian archeologists. I value an archeologists evidence more than any kind of arbitrary linguistic speculation. >I am reading Navaratna Rajaram and David Frawley's book "Vedic Aryans and > the Origins of Civilazation" now, and if the academic quality of that book is > typical of the revisionist scholarship, the chances of the revisionist theory in > Western Academia are as as great as the chances of a snowball in hell. It doesnt really matter what western academia(changed the uppercase to lower:) ) thinks , as long as Indologists pursue the truth and not be bogged down by 19th century thinking or by the colonial hangover of 'some' indian linguists educated under the British. >But having said this, it seems clear that theories about the Aryan >invasion/migration into South Asia need constant revision according to the >latest information. Even if the basic model remains fixed, there are lots of >details that are debatable. This sir, is called retrofitting.You seem to have agreed upon a basic model around which a story has to be built up. Shouldnt this story agree with and corroborate evidence from other sources like archeology, astronomy and original sources. When new archeological finds are pushing the boundaries of Indus-Sarasvati civilization into an area of more than a million square miles and reports of finds even in Goa, there must be atleast some kind of acknowledgement of error in past theories. Even if there are people who do not consider that the river bed along which so many sites have been found is not Sarasvati, how do they explain with their linguistic evidence, the overwhelming evidence from archeology that there is no sign of an invasion !!. >And by the way: It is not possible to derive Tamil from Sanskrit. Nor is it >possible to derive English from Finnish, or Basque from Chinese. We are >simply dealing with different language families. There is no formula by which one langauge can be completely derived from another. There are too many variables which cause changes in language. I (and many other Indians) personally find that Kannada and Telugu so similiar to other north-Indian languages that I refuse to believe that they belong to different language families until some concrete evidence that can be independently verified is offered. Even so called "Dravidian" experts acknowledge this structural similiarity and come up with all kinds of convoluted ideas along with lots of hand waving to explain it. S.Subrahmanya Houston From roheko at MSN.COM Tue Feb 17 18:46:06 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 19:46:06 +0100 Subject: Chess in India Message-ID: <161227035767.23782.16016180860170841715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mrs. Renate Syed from the University of Munich works years about chess in India. see also publications of Johann Klatt, DhanapAla's RishabhapancAzikA, -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Arash Zeini An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Montag, 16. Februar 1998 17:11 Betreff: Chess in India Dear members of the list, I am searching for Sanskrit literature about chess, it doesn't matter from which period. Does anyone know where I can begin to search ? Are there any references from the Indian side regarding the story of the middlepersian text called ' wizAriSn i Catrang ud nihiSn i nEwardaSEr', which tells the story of the Indian King Sacidarm (sometimes Iranists refer to him as Divsaram or Devasarm; in the text: 'sacidarm i wuzurg, SahryAr i hindUgAn-Sa'; transliterated as "scyd'lm") who sends a chess-board for the Sassanian King HusrOg anOSag ruwAn without sending him the rules. HusrOg is asked to find the rules for this play. It is meant to be a test for the Sassanian king. HusrOg or Khosrow I (Anushirvan) ruled from 531 AC to 579 A.C. Nyberg believes that 'Sacidarm' is the middlepersian version for Skr. 'Satyadharma'. Here the beginning of the story in the translation of J. C. Tarapore, Bombay, 1932: (1) It is said thus that during the reign of Khosraw of immortal soul, Divsaram, a great king of India, for the trial of the wisdom and knowledge of the Iranians and for securing his own benefit set up the game of Chatrang (or chess); 16 pieces were made of diamonds and 16 of red ruby. (2) With that game of chess were sent 1200 camels loaded with gold and silver and jewels and pearls and clothes, 90 elephants which carried selected things came with them and Takhtritus, who was the vizier among the Indians, came with them. (3) In the letter it was written thus: "As your name is the King of Kings, all your emperorship over us connotes that your wise men should be wiser than ours. Either you send us an explanation of this game of chess or send revenue and tribute to us." Are there references in the history of India which refer to such relationship between India and Persia ? Any comments on this topic are appreciated. Thanks in advance and with best wishes, Arash Zeini From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 17 17:41:57 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 22:41:57 +0500 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <01ITOHTA0IVM0062AE@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035759.23782.16868287334513578964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:34 AM 2/17/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Both forms and all the related names for the Koel or Eudynamis >>scolopaceus (Linn.) in modern Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages are of >>course derived from Sanskrit kokila, Prakrit kOila, *kOyila. >> >>Erik Seldeslachts > > >kuyil could have arisen independently in Dravidian. >Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (Revised edition) 1984 >has the entry no. 1764 as: > >1764 Ta. kuyil koel, Indian cuckoo, Eudynamis honorata; >(kuyilv-, kuyin2R-) to call, whoop, halloo; utter, tell; >kuyiRRu (kuyiRRi-) to tell, utter. Ma. kuyil, kuzil >Indian cuckoo, Cuculus or E. Orientalis ... > >In connection with the meaning to call, etc., >Dr. Bh. Krishnamurti in a posting on 1/17/98 said that >the root "*ku:(y) occurs in all subgroups of Dravidian >(DEDR 1868; Skt. ku:jita- is said to have been derived from Dravidian)." >kuyil could be related to this root. > >We must consider another possibility. >In Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics, T. Burrow >says in p. 198 that Sanskrit kokila which is attested >from mahAbhArata onward is from Dravidian. > >N. Ganesan > > Even if we assume that kokila in sanskrit is of dravidian origin, the word koel in english is more likely to be derived from telugu kOyila or hindi koyel rather than kuyil of tamil from the affinity sounds. regards, sarma. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Feb 17 22:50:41 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 23:50:41 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035776.23782.17935757078242546928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:45 17.02.98 -0600, you wrote: >Mr. Subrahmanya wrote: >> As the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory chokes,sputters and dies, so will its >> other face, the artificial Aryan(or the PC indo-european)/Dravidian language >> divide die under the weight of its own contradictions and distortions. Ganesan wrote: >Even after revisionist attempts, majority of academics are confidant >and write that Aryans migrated into India and not the other way around. >That is., Aryans did not spread out from India. > >If there is no divide between Indo-Iranian languages and Dravidian >languages, can Tamil (for eg.,) be derived from Sanskrit? I am afraid Mr. Subrahmanya is dreaming a happy dream. I am reading Navaratna Rajaram and David Frawley's book "Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilazation" now, and if the academic quality of that book is typical of the revisionist scholarship, the chances of the revisionist theory in Western Academia are as as great as the chances of a snowball in hell. The best that can be said for the Rajaram/Frawley oeuvre, is that it is extremely entertaining. If I engineered aircraft the way Rajaram writes about history, planes would come crashing down like raindrops. (R. is an aircraft engineer, and he should have stuck to what he understands). But having said this, it seems clear that theories about the Aryan invasion/migration into South Asia need constant revision according to the latest information. Even if the basic model remains fixed, there are lots of details that are debatable. The somewhat misguided debate in India concerning these questions may have the positive effect of a) forcing Western academics to brush up their theories and b) show politicos and others in the West that the study of the distant past is not such an innocent matter after all. God knows, Indological debates might become fashionable with the educated public again, as they were a 100 years ago! And by the way: It is not possible to derive Tamil from Sanskrit. Nor is it possible to derive English from Finnish, or Basque from Chinese. We are simply dealing with different language families. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From sharad at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 18 05:15:19 1998 From: sharad at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN (AGRAWAL SHARAD KUMAR AJIT) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 00:15:19 -0500 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <01ITOHTA0IVM0062AE@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035766.23782.3584821185953800736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Sir! I would like to unsubscribe myself. Please send me the message to be filled in the "SUBJECT" & in the "BODY" in order to unsubscribe. Sharad. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Feb 18 00:15:28 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 01:15:28 +0100 Subject: theory and "theory" (was Re: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035780.23782.4830410154518905504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Mr. Subrahmanya wrote: >> As the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory chokes,sputters and dies, so will its >> other face, the artificial Aryan(or the PC indo-european)/Dravidian language >> divide die under the weight of its own contradictions and distortions. > >[...] > >If there is no divide between Indo-Iranian languages and Dravidian >languages, can Tamil (for eg.,) be derived from Sanskrit? You forget Subrahmanya thinks historical linguistics is a fraud. He's got everything beautifully worked out. :) From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Wed Feb 18 13:58:59 1998 From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 07:58:59 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035796.23782.8733163647826606356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: IN%"INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK" "Indology" 17-FEB-1998 15:44:25.96 >Subj: RE: Tamil words in English > >Mr. Subrahmanya wrote: >> As the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory chokes,sputters and dies, so will its >> other face, the artificial Aryan(or the PC indo-european)/Dravidian language >> divide die under the weight of its own contradictions and distortions. Ganesan wrote: > >Even after revisionist attempts, majority of academics are confidant >and write that Aryans migrated into India and not the other way around. >That is., Aryans did not spread out from India. > > If my memory is right, Planck said somewhere that it is only DEATH that can separate scientistd from their pet theories. -Narahari Achar From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Wed Feb 18 13:13:55 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 08:13:55 -0500 Subject: Naciketas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035793.23782.5906087967220272866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amos Nevo writes: >Actually the MSS of the story of Naciketas, mostly variations of the >name "NAsiketopAkhyAnam", are recent versions of the ancient story from >the VrAha PurANa. >All the commentators that I know of - old and modern, Western and >Eastern - do not mention the recent story at all. Belloni-Filippi >translated the MSS found in the British Library and S. Krause, who >translated a Rajastani version of the story, refers to Belloni-Filippi. >So, as far as I know, in commentating on KaTHopaniSad, no one refers to >the recent versions of the story. >If anybody could enlighten me about the subject, I shall appreciate it. >Thanks in advance. I looked up "The Puranas", by Ludo Rocher and he hasn't mentioned any story about Nachiketa in his section the skanda or the brahmANDa purANa-s. He does mention a nachiketa story from the varAha purANa. Apparently nachiketa describes his experience in yamaloka after he gets back. However, as you might know, the varAha is considered one of the later purANa-s, dates range from 10th - 12th centuries. I have seen a quotation from the varAha in the pa.nchadashI, by vidyAraNya (mid 14th century work). So the varAha can't be later than that. Rocher also gives some work in the German which refers to this story. So you may want to look that up to see if you can get any leads from that. In any case this story would be much later than the story from the kaTha. It's no surprise that most commentators don't refer to this story, because the latest commentator was AnandatIrtha, who founded the dvaita school, circa 12??. Maybe vallabha who came much later, could have referred to it. Rama. From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Wed Feb 18 09:26:06 1998 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 09:26:06 +0000 Subject: -vada / -vadin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035814.23782.3578018508741012349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Richard Salomon writes: >In inscriptions, we find both sarvaasti-vaada- and -vaadin- to refer to >adherents (usually "aacaarya-s") of the school. The former occurs, for >example, in the Mathura lion capital (Konow CII II.2, line A-15 and J-3) >and the Kurram casket ins. (ibid. p.11, line 1C). I haven't checked this >point extensively, but I would expect that inscriptions would be useful in >clearing up (or perhaps rather in further confusing) this issue. I wish someone would make a handlist of the names of Buddhist sects occurring in inscriptions to update Lamotte's avowedly incomplete list. It would be extremely useful. Actually, it's the sort of thing that would be well-done on the Net, perhaps as a collective effort. You sometimes find Theravaada used in this way in verse. Plainly it _can_ be a bahu-vriihi compound used as a noun. >On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > >> I recently "corrected" the draft of a friend's paper, and suggested that >> the usage Sarvastivada was correct for the sect, and Sarvastivadin for a >> follower of said sect. The same for Vibhajyavadin. However, in looking >> through some sources my friend tells me that the actual usage in texts >> seems to be inconsistent. Is this possible, grammatically speaking? In >> other words, can we take 'Sarvastivadin' as the name of the sect and >> 'Sarvastivada' is an adjective form (as the 'Mulasarvastivada-vinaya')? >> Apparently both Frauwallner and Bareau use Sarvastivadin as the name of the >> sect. >> >> Any comments welcome! >> >> Jonathan Silk >> SILK at wmich.edu Well, I think you are right. Yes, Sarvaastivaada and Theravaada can probably be used as adjectives in Sanskrit. But you wouldn't often find that in well-written prose. I would certainly say to students that they should use Sarvaastivaadin and Theravaadin as the adjectival forms in English. I would also simply say that the alternative is wrong to avoid unnecessary complication. MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 18 09:34:55 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 10:34:55 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035789.23782.477784508885909162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It doesnt really matter what western academia(changed the uppercase to lower:) ) >thinks , as long as Indologists pursue the truth and not be bogged down by >19th century >thinking or by the colonial hangover of 'some' indian linguists educated >under the British. I would feel rather relieved if some Indian participants in the debate would discover that there have been Indologists in the West since Max Mueller. And that no modern Indologist or specialist in comparative linguistics believe in the "Aryan invasion theory" simply because Max Mueller said so (which is pretty much what Rajaram implies). >>But having said this, it seems clear that theories about the Aryan >>invasion/migration into South Asia need constant revision according to the >>latest information. Even if the basic model remains fixed, there are lots of >>details that are debatable. >This sir, is called retrofitting.You seem to have agreed upon a basic model >around which a story has to be built up. Shouldnt this story agree with and >corroborate >evidence from other sources like archeology, astronomy and original sources. I have seen some of the evidence from archaeology, astronomy etc that Rajaram uses in his argumentation, and I am not very impressed. As for retrofitting, the same accusation could easily be levelled against the Darwinist doctrine, where the basic model is accepted by biology without question, but where details are discussed on a regular basis. I am quite certain that the same is true of other branches of science. (e.g. the theory of the expanding/possibly contracting universe as against the "steady state" model, where the latter now seems to be out of the picture, and we are left with a discussion of the how exactly the first alternative works). >When new archeological finds are pushing the boundaries of Indus-Sarasvati >civilization into an area >of more than a million square miles and reports of finds even in Goa, there >must be atleast >some kind of acknowledgement of error in past theories. Even if there are >people who do not consider that the river bed along which so many sites have >been found is not Sarasvati, >how do they explain with their linguistic evidence, the overwhelming >evidence from archeology >that there is no sign of an invasion !!. There may not be a mystery at all. The archaeological argument is an argumentum ex nihilo. The fact that nothing is found, does not necessarily mean that nothing was there. It only means that nothing has been found. There may not even be a lot to find. Migrating people do not necessarily leave a trail of artifacts after them. Try, e.g. Gypsy archaeology! > >>And by the way: It is not possible to derive Tamil from Sanskrit. Nor is it >>possible to derive English from Finnish, or Basque from Chinese. We are >>simply dealing with different language families. >There is no formula by which one langauge can be completely derived from >another. >There are too many variables which cause changes in language. >I (and many other Indians) personally find that Kannada and Telugu so >similiar to >other north-Indian languages that I refuse to believe that they belong >to different language families until some concrete evidence that can be >independently >verified is offered. Indian languages have been in contact for several thousand years, and this creates similarities between languages, even if they don't belong to the same families. Similar phenomena are found in Europe. Finnish [a Finno-Ugric language] has a verbal system that clearly has been influenced by the Indo-European languages Finnish has been in contact with for the last millennia. Hungarian, another Finno-Ugric language, got its relative sentences from neighbouring Indo-European languages. When in contact, languages exchange vocabulary, idiomatic expressions and even grammatical structures! I believe this is the subject of a branch of scholarship called "contact linguistics". You should try it some day! >Even so called "Dravidian" experts acknowledge this structural similiarity >and come up with all kinds of convoluted ideas along with lots of hand >waving to explain it. I am sorry that I am waving my hand at you like this! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Feb 18 16:46:33 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 10:46:33 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035800.23782.2867194805655415199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:03 PM 2/18/98 +0100, you wrote: >If the linguistic argument is thought to be wrong, then the revisionist must >show that it is, not simply chant the mantra "linguistics is a fraud", or >something to that effect. I do not intend to debunk linguistics or chant that linguistics is a fraud. All that I did was question the way in which conclusions were drawn. The reason the argument started out was about Kuyil... some of the arguments that were put forth are listed below. >>kuyil could have arisen independently in Dravidian..... >>In connection with the meaning to call, etc., >>Dr. Bh. Krishnamurti in a posting on 1/17/98 said that >>the root "*ku:(y) occurs in all subgroups of Dravidian >>(DEDR 1868; Skt. ku:jita- is said to have been derived from Dravidian)." >>kuyil could be related to this root. >>.............. >>We must consider another possibility. >>In Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics, T. Burrow >>says in p. 198 that Sanskrit kokila which is attested >>from mahAbhArata onward is from Dravidian. Is it justifiable to jump to the conclusion that just because ku occurs in all subgroups southern languages that kuyil is dravidian. Has any effort been made to see if ku exists in other Indian languages ? doesnt ku exist in sanskrit ? Dont the words kuvate,kala, kilakila exist in sanskrit too ? and dont they all mean to make a sound ? All the evidence for a dravidian origin seems to based on "said to have been derived from"and the fact that ku occurs in all of presupposed dravidian subgroups. Please sir, provide more "evidence" than this. Like you have asked, I have listed why I think that linguistic evidence is not conclusive (not that it is a fraud). Please point out why I am wrong to question the conclusions ?. On a different matter: Some time ago, there was a vigorous defence of Alain Danielou when his credibility was questioned. Shouldnt the same apply to Rajaram too ? If there is a problem with his hypothesis, please spell out what they are and why you do not agree with it. Since Rajaram is not here to defend himself we cannot make blanket statements about his qualifications. Personally, I think Rajaram has enough scientific training to atleast recognize irrational speculations. Also, it is the invasion theorists who are revisionists, because the invasion theory started only in the mid 1800's. The indigenous theory has existed a lot longer and was accepted and still is in many parts of India, until the Church and the British decided to do something about it. S.Subrahmanya Houston, TX From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 18 05:59:09 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 10:59:09 +0500 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035787.23782.8081437038711516600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:23 17/02/98 -0600, you wrote: >>I am afraid Mr. Subrahmanya is dreaming a happy dream. >I am very happy to be able to dream along with all Indian archeologists. >I value an archeologists evidence more than any kind of arbitrary linguistic >speculation. >how do they explain with their linguistic evidence, the overwhelming >evidence from archeology that there is no sign of an invasion !!. How can you prove that a Platypus does not lay eggs by showing Platypus not laying eggs!? >>And by the way: It is not possible to derive Tamil from Sanskrit. Nor is it >>possible to derive English from Finnish, or Basque from Chinese. We are >>simply dealing with different language families. >There is no formula by which one langauge can be completely derived from >another. How do you know? What is 'completely derived' vs. 'partly derived'? In our last encounter I suggested that you read a basic book on linguistics and historical linguistics if you want to meaningfully participate on this listing. >There are too many variables which cause changes in language. Can you favour us with your knowledge and understanding of those variables? >I (and many other Indians) personally find that Kannada and Telugu so >similiar to other north-Indian languages that I refuse to believe that they belong to different language families until some concrete evidence that can be >independently verified is offered. Who are these 'many other Indians'? What are their credetials to talk on a problem of historical linguistics? >Even so called "Dravidian" experts acknowledge this structural similiarity >and come up with all kinds of convoluted ideas along with lots of hand >waving to explain it. What structural similarity are you talking about, historical, typological, convergence-born? which one? Do you know how to distinguish one from the other? ajnaaneen aavrtam jnaanam teena muhyanti jantavah--Bhagavadgiita. Bh.K. end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From silk at WMICH.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:03:01 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 12:03:01 -0500 Subject: BUDDHIST REJECTION OF MUSIC In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980218124033.0088bd10@pat.hint.no> Message-ID: <161227035802.23782.2286082736733817842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please check first of all in the Pali Vinaya in English -- I do not have a copy at hand, but there is a rule against seeing various performances, dance, music etc. However, there is an exception to this (although perhaps not in the Pali -- I don't remember) for performances at stupas. this has been discussed in detail by Sasaki Shizuka (alas, in Japanese). Anyway, the Vinaya stuff is the place to start, and perhaps that will answer your question, since of course it is the Pali vinaya which is appealed to in Thailand. Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Feb 18 18:21:57 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 12:21:57 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035805.23782.9453139199882472516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Subrahmanya wrote: >Is it justifiable to jump to the conclusion that just >because ku occurs in all subgroups southern languages that kuyil is >dravidian. >Has any effort been made to see if ku exists in other Indian languages ? >doesnt ku exist in sanskrit ? >Dont the words kuvate,kala, kilakila exist in sanskrit too ? >and dont they all mean to make a sound ? kuyil in Tamil does not come from Sanskrit kuvate, kalakala, kilakila, etc., kuyil in Tamil has definite Proto-Dravidian origins. Tamil has verbal roots: kuyiRRu-, kuyilv-, kuyin2R- etc., Tamil kuyil does not come from kOkila of Sanskrit either. N. Ganesan My earlier posting: kuyil could have arisen independently in Dravidian. Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (Revised edition) 1984 has the entry no. 1764 as: 1764 Ta. kuyil koel, Indian cuckoo, Eudynamis honorata; (kuyilv-, kuyin2R-) to call, whoop, halloo; utter, tell; kuyiRRu (kuyiRRi-) to tell, utter. Ma. kuyil, kuzil Indian cuckoo, Cuculus or E. Orientalis ... In connection with the meaning to call, etc., Dr. Bh. Krishnamurti in a posting on 1/17/98 said that the root "*ku:(y) occurs in all subgroups of Dravidian (DEDR 1868; Skt. ku:jita- is said to have been derived from Dravidian)." kuyil could be related to this root. We must consider another possibility. In Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics, T. Burrow says in p. 198 that Sanskrit kokila which is attested from mahAbhArata onward is from Dravidian. From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Wed Feb 18 11:40:33 1998 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 12:40:33 +0100 Subject: BUDDHIST REJECTION OF MUSIC Message-ID: <161227035791.23782.4146030463624500902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The buddhistmonks, at least in Theravada, are not allowed to listen to music, but why? What is in fact the definition of music according to the buddhists? So far I have found litte materials regarding the(se) subject(s) and will be very happy to receive and answers and/or references, both to primary- and secondary texts. Thank you! Jon From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:46:27 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 12:46:27 -0500 Subject: BUDDHIST REJECTION OF MUSIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035804.23782.6813656022580030536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This reminds me of my college days in Pune. There were a number of Thai and Cambodian monks studying at the Fergusson College in Pune, and they watched Hindi movies along with other college students with the same frequency. Once I asked one of these monks how they could watch these Hindi movies when the Buddha forbid them from watching dances, songs, etc. (nacca-giita-vaadita-visuukadassana etc. in the Vinaya). One of the monks responded by saying that the sole purpose of watching the Hindi movies was to feel disgusted by them, and that was not forbidden by the Buddha. All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > Please check first of all in the Pali Vinaya in English -- I do not have a > copy at hand, but there is a rule against seeing various performances, > dance, music etc. However, there is an exception to this (although perhaps > not in the Pali -- I don't remember) for performances at stupas. this has > been discussed in detail by Sasaki Shizuka (alas, in Japanese). Anyway, the > Vinaya stuff is the place to start, and perhaps that will answer your > question, since of course it is the Pali vinaya which is appealed to in > Thailand. > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu > From jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Wed Feb 18 13:24:24 1998 From: jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 13:24:24 +0000 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <01ITOWUQGY9U0065GA@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227035809.23782.1805249407731499023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Mr. Subrahmanya wrote: > > As the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory chokes,sputters and dies, so will its > > other face, the artificial Aryan(or the PC indo-european)/Dravidian language > > divide die under the weight of its own contradictions and distortions. > > Even after revisionist attempts, majority of academics are confidant > and write that Aryans migrated into India and not the other way around. > That is., Aryans did not spread out from India. > N. Ganesan I my opinion the Aryan Invasion Theory is indeed in its death throes and the theory to replace it is not entirely clear as yet. It is interesting to me that one critical assumption behind the AIT is the identifcation of the Aryans with the 'Teutons' as done by Comte Gobineau. If this assumption is false, then we do not have the picture of the' blonde blue-eyed' warriors conquering the South Asian region and then mixing with the natives to create the modern Indians. This is the general picture sustained by the AIT; Just pick up any encylopedia and read up on the section of ancient india. It is interesting to me that so much effort is put in preserving Gobineau's assumptions (for which he later admitted there was no historical basis), even after the mayhem this has wreacked on Europe in recent history. The fact that millions were killed for a false assumption will be a bitter pill to swallow, especially for European nationalists. Since these assumptions are never a part of public debate and are tied with the horrific past of WW2, they continue to fester. So how can we be so sure that Aryans came into India and Iran when we dont even know what they looked liked, and where they came from ? Is it terribly incorrect to assume that the Aryans were similar to the Indo-Iranians where there is a clear historical memory as opposed to Europeans where even word was forgotten till recent times ? Why are the Vedas/Avesta or proto-forms thereof not remembered in Europe, and scholars have to look at India/Iran to look into the Aryan past ? Most importantly, Karl Popper has emphasized the importance of falsification in scientific models. One case does not prove a general point, but one contradiction can destroy a scientific theory. If indeed we take the 'arrival' of Aryans in India to be around 1500 BC, how is it that they talk about the 'Sarasvati' river which is very likely the major 'dried up' river in the Hakkar-Ghagra Basin, which dried in 2000 BC ? The discovery of this rever bed it seems is a very exciting discovery with hundreds of settlements along it. The silence on the discussion of these finds is interesting. All of this must fit into the 'standard' model and it does not. What the 'new' picture may be is yet to clarify as yet, but the insistence on AIT (for whatever reasons- academic, nationalistic etc) preserves Gobineau's assumptions. Rajaram discusses many of these issues in his book on "AIT and the Subversion of Scholarship" . It will be very interesting for me to see refutations to the points raised in that book; I hope literature beyond polemic will be generated to settle the matter once and for all if indeed revision of the 'standard' model is unwarrented. If the refutation is simply 'this is not good scholarship', then a few reasons as to why would be more convincing. The comments of the Mathematician Seidenberg (on Shulba-Shastras) and Astronomer Caille on Indian Astronomy were dismissed by Whitney (and Keith ?) even though they did not know much about these subjects. I think that this has been recently looked at in detail a dissertation out of Columbia. U. And indeed if the study of the Vedic sky is in its infancy (as pointed out by M. Witzel in a beautiful article on the 'big dipper' in IJVS), then this matter needs more than a second look before historical chronolgies are cited as being absolute. In conclusion, it is questioning that keeps historical models healthy and pointed refutations that dispel 'revisionism'. I think that this is a very exciting time for Indology with the new archeological discoveries (ie Sarasvati river and the sites along it ) and the emerging evidence must be consistent with historical chronologies based primarily on philology. One more thing; Some time ago someone pointed out the 'manifesto' of this list discouraging folks from 'math and physics' to post on this list as this does not prepare them for 'humanities'. This points to an egregiously false notion that Indology is a field of 'humanities'. Humanities does not purport to construct historical chronologies, historical science does. And if indeed there is a place for construction of historical models in Indology based on linguistics, archeology, geology, physics (radio-carbon dating), astronomy (vedic sky) etc, there is a legitimate place for scientists to participate in the discussion. Scientists can comment on the methodologies historical science and that input is needed for the health of the field. Once more, a cursory glance at the historical wastebasket shows many a discarded paradigms. So AIT is subject to a Toynbeean 'challenge and response'. The challenge has been there for some time, and sadly the response has in most part been vilification of the challenger. It will perhaps take a generation of Indologists to remove this spectre of competing histories and get a clearer picture of 'what really happened (most likely).". I submit this note with great respect for those who have formally dedicated themselves to the study of India. Regards, J.B. Sharma Associate Professor of Physics From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Feb 18 03:48:56 1998 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 14:48:56 +1100 Subject: Sources for Hindu divination Message-ID: <161227035784.23782.13663773169507723427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>Does anybody out there know of any scholarly work/s on Hindu techniques of >divination, apart from David Pingree's on ancient astrology? I am trying to >discern to what extent this particular aspect of Hinduism has been explored, >and so far I've come up with very little. Haven't scholars of religion taken >any interest in this topic?>> At the risk of providing information you haven't asked for I'd mention a rather large volume on Jain divination: Angavijja / edited by Muni Punyavijaya. Varanasi : Prakrta grantha Parisad, 1957. (Prakrit Text Society series ; no.1). It might be interesting to see if "Hindu" divination and "Jain" divination have anything in common. From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Feb 18 12:55:16 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 14:55:16 +0200 Subject: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v Message-ID: <161227035795.23782.3178284615549510192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I would be grateful for references to descriptions of doubled nouns in Hindi-Urdu of the following type: First noun: is an ordinary noun Second noun: is a nonsense word that begins with v (or m) and rhymes with the first noun Examples: caae vaae, 'tea, etc.' saRak maRak, 'roads and highways, etc.' --If anyone would care to send further examples I would be very happy. --I am aware of Anvita Abbi's work on reduplicated words in South Asian languages, but it has not reached us yet. My apologies for cross-postings. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Feb 18 21:13:58 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 15:13:58 -0600 Subject: Lord of animals - Bibliography Message-ID: <161227035821.23782.17940034216019299107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Srinivas, Pl.see: Alf Hiltebeitel, The Indus valley 'Proto-Siva', Reexamined through reflections on the Goddess, the Buffalo, and the Symbolism of the vaahanas. Anthropos, 73:5-6 1978, p.767-797 In Karur, Tamil Nadu there is a massive temple to PashupatIsvarar. There is a "pacupatIcuvarar mAlai", still unpublished and Olai mss. is avaialble at tanjore sarasvathi mahal. In karUrp purANam, the stala purANam, there is story on a Siddhar. Called as KaruvUrt tEvar, he was a friend of Rajaraja I (fl. 1000 AD). Tanjore big temple has a Chola era painting of karUrt tEvar in Tanjore and that temple was consecrated by him. pacupatIsvarar mAlai is of the same age as kALahastIsvara satakamu translated by Heifetz and Hart. So far, no art historical study on karUr temple. Nor any thing on karUrt tEvar's songs which form part of the 11th Saiva canon (patinOraam tirumuRai), nor on karUrp purANam. Yours N. Ganesan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 18 15:03:52 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 16:03:52 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035798.23782.13993754766667174444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Even after revisionist attempts, majority of academics are confidant >>and write that Aryans migrated into India and not the other way around. >>That is., Aryans did not spread out from India. >> >> >If my memory is right, Planck said somewhere that it is only DEATH that can >separate scientistd from their pet theories. >-Narahari Achar > One should perhaps add that the WILL or NEED to believe - for various reasons - will sometimes make people adopt the most bizarr ideas and hang on to them in spite of all evidence to the contrary. There is of course much truth in Planck's statement - just ask young scholars fighting for new ideas - but the argument works both ways. Nice dreams are better than harsh truths. The reason that Western scholars - ALL acknowledged experts in the field, not just a few old geezers hanging on to ideas their younger colleagues don't believe in anymore - are unimpressed by the revisionist views on the "Aryan invasion", is that the arguments brought forward are poor. The revisionists will simply have to do better - MUCH BETTER - if they want to convince us. And they might start by quoting us correctly and showing that they are properly informed about what we think and why we think it. "Debunking" linguistics, as some do, is certainly not the way to do it. If the linguistic argument is thought to be wrong, then the revisionist must show that it is, not simply chant the mantra "linguistics is a fraud", or something to that effect. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Wed Feb 18 19:34:40 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 16:34:40 -0300 Subject: Alain Danielou Message-ID: <161227035812.23782.7816368127103238043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On a different matter: >Some time ago, there was a vigorous defence of Alain Danielou when his >credibility was questioned. Could someone inform me when did the discussion around Alain Danielou took place, so that I may pick it up from the archives ? Jesualdo Correia From silk at WMICH.EDU Wed Feb 18 22:16:32 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 17:16:32 -0500 Subject: -vada / -vadin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035829.23782.3739679580777315381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk wrote: >I wish someone would make a handlist of the names of Buddhist sects >occurring in inscriptions to update Lamotte's avowedly incomplete list. > There is such a list, by SHIZUTANI Masao. While the discussion and abstracts of the Indian Buddhist Inscriptions he treats are in Japanese, all names are printed in Roman type, are indexed, and provided with Lueders numbers. Take a look! (From memory: Indo Bukkyo Hibun Mokuroku --- but somehow I think that is not quite right. As always, my copy is at home :-( ) Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 18 18:31:26 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 18:31:26 +0000 Subject: Sources for Hindu divination In-Reply-To: <199802180349.OAA00761@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227035807.23782.11065063180631014950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Royce Wiles wrote: > At the risk of providing information you haven't asked for I'd mention a > rather large volume on Jain divination: > > Angavijja / edited by Muni Punyavijaya. > Varanasi : Prakrta grantha Parisad, 1957. > (Prakrit Text Society series ; no.1). Ah, isn't this the book which lists everything in the universe? All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 19 02:33:24 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 18:33:24 -0800 Subject: -vada / -vadin (and Buddhist schools generally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035841.23782.9831827786487457037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shizutani is indeed the best source for Buddhist schools in Indian inscriptions, and is usable even without a knowledge of Japanese; see especially the index of schools on p.153. But it is not quite up to date, as quite a number of inscriptions with such references have been published since 1979; for instance, a (previously) rare Mahisasaka inscription published by G. Fussman in BEFEO 74 (1985), pp. 47-51. In particular, numerous Kharosthi inscriptions referring to the Dharmaguptakas have been found recently; see A. Sadakata in JA 284 (1996), pp. 301-24. Several more Dharmaguptaka inscriptions will be presented in my forthcoming (later this year if all goes well) book on the British Library Kharosthi scrolls (at least some of which I believe to be Dharmaguptaka texts). RS On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, L.S.Cousins wrote: > > > I wish someone would make a handlist of the names of Buddhist sects > > occurring in inscriptions to update Lamotte's avowedly incomplete > > list. It would be extremely useful. Actually, it's the sort of > > thing that would be well-done on the Net, perhaps as a collective > > effort. > > There is already a Japanese work: > Shizutani, Masao: Indo bukkyo himei mokuroku. > Kyoto : Heirakuji shoten, 1979 > (Catalogue of Indian Buddhist inscriptions) > > It is said to contain a comprehensive (but not exhaustive) list > of inscriptions. It was unavailable in the German interlibrary > system, so I haven't seen it directly, though. In the late > eighties I contacted a bookseller in Tokyo who gave me the > information that it is out of print. > > Perhaps it may serve as a good starting point -- even if one does > not read Japanese. > > All the best > Peter > > -- > Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 18 18:36:43 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 18:36:43 +0000 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980218164633.00944270@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227035810.23782.10618488332198490003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > Since Rajaram is not here to defend himself we cannot make blanket > statements about his qualifications. Personally, I think Rajaram has > enough scientific training to atleast recognize irrational speculations. As is probably nauseatingly well known to my friends by now, I consider a scientific training to be a qualification for nothing but irrational speculations. Incidentally, I have a scientific training. Is this a question? :-) All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 19 03:36:05 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 19:36:05 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035843.23782.4938739922568105949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would first of all like to thank Edwin Bryant for his comments since he is obviously competent to comment upon it... While I disagree with Lars in terms of the need for acceptance of an idea in western scholarship, I do agree with him and Jacob Baltuch in terms of how Rajaram and Subhash Kak( please don't forget the "Bhishma Pitamaha" of all this fancy stuff) selectively use stuff from WEstern Scholars and reject it when they find it contradicts their thoughts.. One very silly point for the rejection of AIT brought up in Kak's book is: Nowhere do we find in the Tamil texts, any mention of the Dravidians losing a war.... I find this downright laughable...has any civilization/culture talked/sung about about a war which they've lost? In India, we always talk about the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars because we came out on top, there is far less discussion of the 1962 Indo-China war where we came out second best...Likewise, in the Tamil texts we find mention of incidents (real/imagined) where the Tamils came out on top..the third canto of the CilappadikAram talks about a king who went up north and gave the northern kings a thrashing, in the 10th-11th century Raja Raja Chola took on the title of gaGgaikoNDachOzhan2 for the simpl e reason that he came out on top(It is a safe bet that one wouldn't find this in northern texts)...I find it difficult to believe that people can swallow such reasoning given by Kak and company without questions.... They quote Aurobindo Ghose because he is a freedom fighter and therefore tried to debunk British theories; by the same token why can't they pay attention to the sayings of Bal Gangadhar Tilak, whose nationalist credentials are above question? Simple, because the former gives them legitimacy, the later( who talks about an Arctic home) does n't.... Prof R.E.Frykenberg(UWisconsin) mentions in his book "Guntur(1788- 1848)" that it was common for the zamindars to cook up tall stories about descent from ancient kings in order to give themselves respacta bility, the same also holds true of the king iruGkovEl who claims descent from the yAdavas of dvAraka and the maharAja of udaipUr who claims descent from the moon..this kind of story telling was common in India and it gladdens my heart to see that there are still some Indians who are holding so steadfastly onto this *ancient tradition* of coming up with fantastic claims to give themselves a legal standing as "sons of the soil"... BEfore I depart, may I request Subrahmanya to back up this claim: >Also, it is the invasion theorists who are revisionists, because the >invasion theory started only in the mid 1800's. The indigenous theory has existed a lot longer and was accepted and still is in many parts of India, until the Church and the British decided to do something about it. > I doubt this because in the days of the Mughals, especially Aurangazeb, discussion was invalid on these topics...they believed that the history of a country before Islam came there wasn't worth knowing..If you are refering to the Marathas , I'd be interested in knowing your reference since V.K.Rajwade,(itihAsAcArya) the noted historian mentions no such thing....such topics do not seem to have bothered the pEzvAs who were more interested in proving their own Brahminness thru the sahyAdri khaND.... so, I'm not sure of how the indigenous theory was believed.. Could you please give us a few references? Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From JSHARMA at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Wed Feb 18 19:43:12 1998 From: JSHARMA at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 19:43:12 +0000 Subject: Tamil words in English/AIT Message-ID: <161227035837.23782.2865563022832466230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First and foremost, History is a Social Science(sociology, psychology, anthropology etc) and not a part of Humanities(literature, lingustics, fine-arts etc). This is significant. Indology is not just the study of Sanskrit literature; it purports the construction of Indic past and chronolgies thereof. If it is the guardian of these facts, it certainly is significantly a Historical Science as well. The fundamental methodology of science remains the matching of theory and evidence. In the physical sciences, the fundamental asumptions underlying the model and the method of measurement are universally shared among scientists and it is hard to quibble with a repeatable measurement. In the social sciences, however, the fundamental assumptions (axioms) of the model and measurement method have to be defined within a school of thought and are not universally shared. The model is good only under these assumtions. This is obviously the case in the Aryan intrusion vs Aryan extrusion theories. Interestinly, for the 'intrusion' proponents the Aryans are 'their' forefathers (and looked just like them..a la Gobineau who founded this assumption), and the 'extrusion' folks say that the Aryans are 'their' forefathers. These questions will have their answers with the convergence of historical linguistics, archeology, geology, astronomy, physics, mathematics, the human genome project etc. And it is not necessary that one or the other is right and maybe both are true; There could have been an intrusion and an extrusion. The picture is just not clear as so much unexamined evidence does lie on the table. For those who insist on AIT on based purely on historical lingiustics and state chronologies as fact based on this fail to convince me and are on very shaky ground. This more so in the face of evidence that does not fit the the AIT model (the 'saraswati' river sites ). As a demand of historical science the model has to explain and accomodate all the evidence available. Even more interestingly, if AIT and the 'intrusion' idea and dates are revised, it will necessarily mean the revision of models of ancient european and middle eastern history. Because of these linkages the inertia for a change in the AIT is and will be great; However the vigor of the western academy is greater and a more plausible model will emerge from young and questioning scholars in time. As for the constellations in the Veda being obscure, some are very well known eg kritika (plaides), the big dipper etc. This does need further looking into. btw Jacobi was a mathematician as well as was Grassmann. As for the question about competent to speak on matters Indological because I am a physicist... you know... the matter of establishing credibility ... Firstly, in a debate, it is better to respond to the words/ideas presented and evaluate their merit as opposed to the degrees and other material tattoos we cart around with us. Secondly, questioning competence not only sidetracks the debate it ends it, and I promise never to do that to you or anyone once I choose to speak/debate with you. In matters of nonsense, silence is more civil. On matters of 'scenting' the territory of physics being off limits to non-physicists; Au contraire. The health of any field is dependent on the independent and concerned scholar. There are alive in academia and society many minds who have interest in subjects out of their professions and this helps sustain and grow this area of study. This applies to both physics and Indology. If you are capable of understanding the language of the field, your opinion will be welcome in professional circles; Nonsense will merit no response. If you can read the arcane language of math you to can discuss hard- core physics with professionals. Since history is written in this case is English and the facts accesible to those who can read, and more so to those trained as scholars in the liberal arts tradition. Forgive me if this is absurd, but do you think that it is incomprehsible for a Norweigen physicist to be able to speak reasonably knowledgeably about Norweigen history ? btw there is an interesting website by a fellow by the name of Leonard Reuter on the 'Aryan Problem'. Once more, I realize that the matter is contentious and in general I am content to lurk in this excellent forum. Regards, J.B. Sharma ___________________________________________________- Lars Martin Fosse wrote : The fantasies of Count Gobineau are of no account to AIT today. The Aryans may have been blond and blue-eyed, or not. They most likely mixed with other peoples on their way to India. But I believe that there are still blue-eyed people to be found in the Punjab, so some of them may very well have been blue-eyed. You may, by the way, want to read "The History and Geography of Human Genes" by Cavalli-Sforza. He discusses the realities of the AIT from a genetic point of view. >times ? Why are the Vedas/Avesta or proto-forms thereof not >remembered in Europe, and scholars have to look at India/Iran to look >into the Aryan past ? Comparative cultural studies show that there are ideas common to the Eastern and Western branch of the Indo-European "ethnic theatre". May I suggest a book on the subject: Bruce Lincoln, "Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction", Harvard University Press, 1986. > Most importantly, Karl Popper has emphasized the importance of >falsification in scientific models. One case does not prove a general >point, but one contradiction can destroy a scientific theory. If >indeed we take the 'arrival' of Aryans in India to be around 1500 BC, >how is it that they talk about the 'Sarasvati' river which is very >likely the major 'dried up' river in the Hakkar-Ghagra Basin, which >dried in 2000 BC ? There may be several explanations. For one thing, there is no reason to believe that no Indo-Aryans visited India before the "invasion". They may have come as traders. I suspect that the Aryan "invasion" occurred because the Indus culture became weakened by the ecological catastrophy that seems to have hit it and was unable to fend off intruders. Compare the influx of Germanic tribes in the Western Roman empire in the fifth and sixth centuries CE. Germans had been present in Rome for centuries before they were able to ravage the area. But they may also simply have talked to the locals - after all a mighty river that simply disappears could easily get stuck in mythology. ..... I don't think it is correct to say that the study of the Vedic sky is in its infancy. After all, Herman Jacobi wrote several hundred pages on astronomy and Indology at the turn of the century. But a fresh look at these matters might be interesting, particularly now that we are able to simulate the sky as it was millennia ago by means of computer programs. > One more thing; Some time ago someone pointed out the 'manifesto' of >this list discouraging folks from 'math and physics' to post on this >list as this does not prepare them for 'humanities'. This points to >an egregiously false notion that Indology is a field of 'humanities'. >Humanities does not purport to construct historical chronologies, >historical science does. This must be a misunderstanding. History is very much part of the humanities, and historians deal with chronological problems all the time. Indologists have been discussing chronological problems for a 150 years. And I fail to see how knowledge of physics and mathematics alone can sort out the tangled web of Indian literatures! I have tried to use statistics on the problem, and reached the conclusion that statistics may be useful, but only in conjunction with traditional methods. And if indeed there is a place for >construction of historical models in Indology based on linguistics, >archeology, geology, physics (radio-carbon dating), astronomy (vedic >sky) etc, there is a legitimate place for scientists to participate >in the discussion. Provided we know what constellations we are talking about. Part of the problem is that we do not always know exactly what the Vedic literature means when it talks about astronomical phenomena. But I agree that the sciences and their potensiality may have been neglected, and that many people in the humanities are deplorably lacking in even elementary scientific knowledge. > Once more, a cursory glance at the historical wastebasket shows many >a discarded paradigms. So AIT is subject to a Toynbeean 'challenge >and response'. The challenge has been there for some time, and sadly >the response has in most part been vilification of the challenger. It >will perhaps take a generation of Indologists to remove this spectre >of competing histories and get a clearer picture of 'what really >happened (most likely).". There is nothing wrong in challenging the AIT, as long as it is done in a competent manner. But let me ask you as a physicist: Do you accept a challenge against physical theory from a person without adequate mathematical knowledge and no proper qualifications in physics? If you were a geophysicist, would you spend much time discussing the reality of the earth's rotundity with a member of the "Flat Earth Society" (there really is - or at least recently was - such a thing)? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Feb 18 19:01:33 1998 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 20:01:33 +0100 Subject: "Lord of animals" - Bibliography Message-ID: <161227035816.23782.11689299726896622114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Informative is: Erich Hofsteter, Der Herr der Tiere im Alten Indien. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1980 More specific on the Pashupati temple in Nepal with further bibliographic details is: Axel Michaels, Die Reisen der G?tter. Der nepalische Pashupatiaatha-Tempel uns sein rituelles Umfeld. Bonn: VGH Wissenschaftsverlag, 1994. Best wishes, A.M. Sreenivas Paruchuri wrote: > > Greetings! > > An acquaintance of mine, Professor in Catholic Theology, is looking for > references/information about; "Lord of animals" (hope I got the right word > in english! in German: Herr der Tiere) in various religions and asked me, > if I could tell something about it from Indian context. I only know that > "Siva" is known as the Lord of Animals in Hindu mythology, and as a native > Telugu, know the story associated with the SreekALahasti (temple). > > Could the list members please point any books/articles on: Siva as the > Lord of Animals. Please send a copy of your reply to the addresses given > below too! > > Thanks in advance! > > Regards, --Sreenivas > > P.S. The book: _For the Lord of the Animals_ by Heifetz and NarayanaRao > Velcheru is only a translation of a Telugu "Sataka". > > -- > E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de > sparuchuri at hotmail.com > PLEASE ADDRESS YOUR PERSONAL MAILS TO BOTH THE ABOVE ADDRESSES From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 18 19:29:25 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 20:29:25 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035818.23782.8032610806546221402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:46 18.02.98 -0600, you wrote: >At 04:03 PM 2/18/98 +0100, you wrote: >>If the linguistic argument is thought to be wrong, then the revisionist must >>show that it is, not simply chant the mantra "linguistics is a fraud", or >>something to that effect. > >I do not intend to debunk linguistics or chant that linguistics is a fraud. >All that I did was question the way in which conclusions were drawn. >The reason the argument started out was about Kuyil... >some of the arguments that were put forth are listed below. I don't think that I'll enter the discussion about Kuyil. I am not competent do discuss the question. > >On a different matter: >Some time ago, there was a vigorous defence of Alain Danielou when his >credibility was questioned. Shouldnt the same apply to Rajaram too ? >Since Rajaram is not here to defend himself we cannot make blanket statements >about his qualifications. Personally, I think Rajaram has enough scientific >training to atleast recognize irrational speculations. There is a difference between publishing a book and participating in an Internet discussion. If you publish a book, any reader may feel free to critize your comptence. That kind of critique comes with the territory. The author cannot expect that he will only be critized when he is there to defend himself. >If there is a problem with his hypothesis, please spell out what they are >and why you do not agree with it. This is a reasonable request, and I shall be happy to oblige, although in a small way. 1. I claim that Rajaram does not have the educational background to discuss the matters he is discussing, anymore than I have the background necessary for constructing an aeroplane. This is plain from the errors made by Rajaram on a number of occasions. Here are a couple of examples: a) E.g., R. claims that the book on horsemanship written by Kikkuli is "written i pure Sanskrit". It is actually written in Hittite, but there are a number of Sanskrit terms related to horses and horseracing in the book. b) R. claims that the name of Hercules comes from Hari-Krishna because the Greeks and Romans (source: Pliny) identified Krishna with Hercules. R. is unaware of the fact that the Greeks and Romans habitually compared foreign gods with their own and then "identified" the foreign gods with this or that Greek or Roman god. In a similar manner, the Germanic god Odin (Wotan) was identified with Mercurius. The Romans called this the Interpretatio Romana. Hari-Krishna has nothing to do with Hercules. The name - in Greek Herakles - is a pure Greek name, meaning the "Fame of Hera" (Hera being a goddess and the wife of Zeus). c) R. claims to be a linguist, but is on occasion unable to translate Skt. correctly. I haven't checked all his translations, but have noticed two quite elementary mistakes so far. His attacks on the idea that Dravidian languages and Skt. belong to different families show no trace of linguistic compentence. To be short: R. doesn't get his facts right. Furthermore, R. introduces into the discussion the idea that mathematics spread from India to Babylonia and Egypt (basing himself on the Seidenberg papers). This argument is a non-starter unless you can show in detail how it happened. The reason is simple: Languages are arbitrary systems, which is why similarities are potentially highly significant. Mathematical rules and principles, on the other hand, are the same all over the universe, and if they can be discovered in one place, they can certainly also be discovered by an intelligence with similar capabilities elsewhere. (Compare the discovery of differential mathematics by Leibniz and Newton. It happened independently and at practically the same time). The representation of numbers, on the other hand, is somewhat arbitrary, compare the Roman system, the Indian system (with zero) and the Maya system, based on a 20-number system instead of ten. Furthermore, R.'s representation of Western Indology is highly uninformed. He spends a lot of time lambasting Indologist that lived 100 years ago - no doubt because they are well represented in Indian libraries - but shows very little knowledge of modern Indologists and comparative linguists. His reading is therefore slanted and arbitrary, and for these reasons he is not competent to discuss the questions he is discussing. His quotations are sloppy, with few references, so that it is difficult to check his statements, which is a desecrable shortcoming in a book that claims to be scholarly. >Also, it is the invasion theorists who are revisionists, because the >invasion theory started only in the mid 1800's. The indigenous theory has >existed a lot longer and was accepted and still is in many parts of India, >until the Church and the British decided to do something about it. The "Church and the British" did not do away with the indigenous theory. If that had been the case, the theory would not have survived. Or do you think that the French, with their old rivalry with the Brits, would have accepted such a theory if was based on decisions by the "Church and the British". And would the Germans accept it for such reasons? You are making the mistake - which verges on an insult - to suggest that Western scholars are feebleminded admirers of old theories without the critical acumen to drop a theory if it lacks foundations. Even R. has to admit that Max Mueller today means nothing at all. He is an historical relic, important in his time, but his theories have in most cases been rejected by modern scholars. The Aryan invasion theory survives because the facts support it. That will do for today. Now I must work, gentlemen! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Feb 19 02:31:37 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 21:31:37 -0500 Subject: I-A Migration dissertation In-Reply-To: <199802182245.XAA15693@online.no> Message-ID: <161227035839.23782.13530145068870245950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >Has there been any impartial examination of the "Out of India" > >scholarship by Western scholars? I seem to recall > >someone was writing a dissertation on that topic (Edwin > >Bryant?) but it was more than a year ago and I have heard > >nothing since. Is that dissertation now completed? > Yes. I defended the dissertation in Columbia Univertsity last year. I hope to rewrite and update it over the summer, and have it in the hands of Oxford University Press for review by late August. It is intended to be a complete overview of all rational points of views pertaining to the origins of the Indo-Aryans in the context of the current debate. > I think Edwin is the first to do so, and from what I have seen of his work, > his presentation is fair and good. But I agree that the question is > interesting and merits more attention from scholarship. > Thank you. The issue certainly merits scholarly and *detached* attention. Unfortunately, the whole issue is surcharged with emotional and political tension making it rather hard for many people to discuss things objectively. Frankly, while the topic intrigues me, I am sick to death of the sentiments that this issue arouses. As a result, I just want to get the thing published and move on to something else. I am not about to embark on any kind of a debate on this list. Suffice it to say that my investigations conclude that there is absolutely no grounds to propose that the IE languages factually left a possible Indian homeland to journey outside the subcontinent. Anyone so doing is arguing on the basis of predetermined convictions and not on the basis of the available data. However, almost all of the arguments that can be produced to insist that these languages must have rather intruded *into* the Northwest of the subcontinent *from* outside (including all the points raised so far on this thread), have been, or can be, problematized once certain assumptions have been brought into question. Accordingly, I conclude in my research that the present data does not allow us to determine how the languages are connected or where they came from. A corollary of this is that it is very hard or even impossible to definitively conclude that they must at least have been intruders into the Northwest of the subcontinent (although clearly they spread from there to the East and South). In other words, a Northwest Indian/Pakistan/Afghanistan origin can not be completely ruled out as one candidate amongst others. This possibility would not at all entail that Sanskrit was the Proto-Indo-European language (and certainly not that it is connected to Dravidian). I'm sorry to be tantalizing or provocative without providing any substance (I wouldn't have chipped in had my name not come up), but that's all I have time for. The data is so extensive and complex that any serious discussion would go on for ever. I should just note that Rajaram's book, and others of this kind, are hardly likely to inspire any critical scholar to reconsider the present status quo pertaining to the Indo-Aryan migrations. They rather do a disservice to alternative points of view. Regards, Edwin Bryant Edwin Bryant Committee for the Study of Religion Harvard University 12 Quincy Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 496 1010 From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Wed Feb 18 20:43:37 1998 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 21:43:37 +0100 Subject: -vada / -vadin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035830.23782.15967420735488618108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, L.S.Cousins wrote: > I wish someone would make a handlist of the names of Buddhist sects > occurring in inscriptions to update Lamotte's avowedly incomplete > list. It would be extremely useful. Actually, it's the sort of > thing that would be well-done on the Net, perhaps as a collective > effort. There is already a Japanese work: Shizutani, Masao: Indo bukkyo himei mokuroku. Kyoto : Heirakuji shoten, 1979 (Catalogue of Indian Buddhist inscriptions) It is said to contain a comprehensive (but not exhaustive) list of inscriptions. It was unavailable in the German interlibrary system, so I haven't seen it directly, though. In the late eighties I contacted a bookseller in Tokyo who gave me the information that it is out of print. Perhaps it may serve as a good starting point -- even if one does not read Japanese. All the best Peter -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 18 20:53:05 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 21:53:05 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035819.23782.1169703721622425604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I my opinion the Aryan Invasion Theory is indeed in its death >throes and the theory to replace it is not entirely clear as yet. It >is interesting to me that one critical assumption behind the AIT is >the identifcation of the Aryans with the 'Teutons' as done by Comte >Gobineau. If this assumption is false, then we do not have the >picture of the' blonde blue-eyed' warriors conquering the South Asian >region and then mixing with the natives to create the modern Indians. >This is the general picture sustained by the AIT; Just pick up any >encylopedia and read up on the section of ancient india. > It is interesting to me that so much effort is put in preserving >Gobineau's assumptions (for which he later admitted there was no >historical basis), even after the mayhem this has wreacked on Europe >in recent history. The fact that millions were killed for a false >assumption will be a bitter pill to swallow, especially for European >nationalists. Since these assumptions are never a part of public >debate and are tied with the horrific past of WW2, they continue to >fester. The fantasies of Count Gobineau are of no account to AIT today. The Aryans may have been blond and blue-eyed, or not. They most likely mixed with other peoples on their way to India. But I believe that there are still blue-eyed people to be found in the Punjab, so some of them may very well have been blue-eyed. You may, by the way, want to read "The History and Geography of Human Genes" by Cavalli-Sforza. He discusses the realities of the AIT from a genetic point of view. > So how can we be so sure that Aryans came into India and Iran >when we dont even know what they looked liked, and where they came >from ? Is it terribly incorrect to assume that the Aryans were >similar to the Indo-Iranians Not at all. They most probably were. where there is a clear historical memory >as opposed to Europeans where even word was forgotten till recent >times ? Why are the Vedas/Avesta or proto-forms thereof not >remembered in Europe, and scholars have to look at India/Iran to look >into the Aryan past ? Comparative cultural studies show that there are ideas common to the Eastern and Western branch of the Indo-European "ethnic theatre". May I suggest a book on the subject: Bruce Lincoln, "Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction", Harvard University Press, 1986. > Most importantly, Karl Popper has emphasized the importance of >falsification in scientific models. One case does not prove a general >point, but one contradiction can destroy a scientific theory. If >indeed we take the 'arrival' of Aryans in India to be around 1500 BC, >how is it that they talk about the 'Sarasvati' river which is very >likely the major 'dried up' river in the Hakkar-Ghagra Basin, which >dried in 2000 BC ? There may be several explanations. For one thing, there is no reason to believe that no Indo-Aryans visited India before the "invasion". They may have come as traders. I suspect that the Aryan "invasion" occurred because the Indus culture became weakened by the ecological catastrophy that seems to have hit it and was unable to fend off intruders. Compare the influx of Germanic tribes in the Western Roman empire in the fifth and sixth centuries CE. Germans had been present in Rome for centuries before they were able to ravage the area. But they may also simply have talked to the locals - after all a mighty river that simply disappears could easily get stuck in mythology. > Rajaram discusses many of these issues in his book on "AIT and the >Subversion of Scholarship" . It will be very interesting for me to >see refutations to the points raised in that book; I hope literature >beyond polemic will be generated to settle the matter once and for >all if indeed revision of the 'standard' model is unwarrented. >If the refutation is simply 'this is not good scholarship', then a >few reasons as to why would be more convincing. The comments of the >Mathematician Seidenberg (on Shulba-Shastras) and Astronomer Caille >on Indian Astronomy were dismissed by Whitney (and Keith ?) even >though they did not know much about these subjects. I think that this >has been recently looked at in detail a dissertation out of Columbia. > U. And indeed if the study of the Vedic sky is in its infancy (as >pointed out by M. Witzel in a beautiful article on the 'big dipper' >in IJVS), then this matter needs more than a second look before >historical chronolgies are cited as being absolute. I don't think it is correct to say that the study of the Vedic sky is in its infancy. After all, Herman Jacobi wrote several hundred pages on astronomy and Indology at the turn of the century. But a fresh look at these matters might be interesting, particularly now that we are able to simulate the sky as it was millennia ago by means of computer programs. > One more thing; Some time ago someone pointed out the 'manifesto' of >this list discouraging folks from 'math and physics' to post on this >list as this does not prepare them for 'humanities'. This points to >an egregiously false notion that Indology is a field of 'humanities'. >Humanities does not purport to construct historical chronologies, >historical science does. This must be a misunderstanding. History is very much part of the humanities, and historians deal with chronological problems all the time. Indologists have been discussing chronological problems for a 150 years. And I fail to see how knowledge of physics and mathematics alone can sort out the tangled web of Indian literatures! I have tried to use statistics on the problem, and reached the conclusion that statistics may be useful, but only in conjunction with traditional methods. And if indeed there is a place for >construction of historical models in Indology based on linguistics, >archeology, geology, physics (radio-carbon dating), astronomy (vedic >sky) etc, there is a legitimate place for scientists to participate >in the discussion. Provided we know what constellations we are talking about. Part of the problem is that we do not always know exactly what the Vedic literature means when it talks about astronomical phenomena. But I agree that the sciences and their potensiality may have been neglected, and that many people in the humanities are deplorably lacking in even elementary scientific knowledge. > Once more, a cursory glance at the historical wastebasket shows many >a discarded paradigms. So AIT is subject to a Toynbeean 'challenge >and response'. The challenge has been there for some time, and sadly >the response has in most part been vilification of the challenger. It >will perhaps take a generation of Indologists to remove this spectre >of competing histories and get a clearer picture of 'what really >happened (most likely).". There is nothing wrong in challenging the AIT, as long as it is done in a competent manner. But let me ask you as a physicist: Do you accept a challenge against physical theory from a person without adequate mathematical knowledge and no proper qualifications in physics? If you were a geophysicist, would you spend much time discussing the reality of the earth's rotundity with a member of the "Flat Earth Society" (there really is - or at least recently was - such a thing)? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Feb 18 21:56:06 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 22:56:06 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035823.23782.17693806136761724071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik W. wrote: >As is probably nauseatingly well known to my friends by now, I consider a >scientific training to be a qualification for nothing but irrational >speculations. Not to mention hasty generalizations. >Incidentally, I have a scientific training. I see. Unrelated observation: Why is it that Sanskrit always attracts geeks? :-) From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Feb 18 21:56:10 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 22:56:10 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035825.23782.4396261056765403305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: this discussion, on a more serious note maybe, has there been any impartial examination of the "Out of India" scholarship by Western scholars? The anecdotal evidence seems to be that its overall level is pretty amateurish, but surely there must be all kinds. Isn't there anything useful that can be gotten out of it? I seem to recall someone was writing a dissertation on that topic (Edwin Bryant?) but it was more than a year ago and I have heard nothing since. Is that dissertation now completed? To be fair it should be recognized that many important questions on the expansion of IE languages still remain. For example, regarding the IE expansion into Europe there are two main theories, that of a Neolithic expansion (Renfrew) and that of a Bronze Age expansion (Gimbutas, Mallory, etc.) Also the proposals for the center of dispersal are even more varied: Anatolia, the Balkans, the southern Ukraine, Central Asia and more. One thing which is intriguing to me was that the picture for India has not changed even while new proposals have appeared for Europe. Can anyone briefly explain why a theory like Renfrew came up with for Europe is simply not tenable (not even Renfrew proposes it) in the case of India, whereas it is, if not correct, at least not considered outright lunatic for Europe? From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 18 22:13:04 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 23:13:04 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035827.23782.981615434003381316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:56 18.02.98 +0100, you wrote: >Dominik W. wrote: > >>As is probably nauseatingly well known to my friends by now, I consider a >>scientific training to be a qualification for nothing but irrational >>speculations. > >Not to mention hasty generalizations. > >>Incidentally, I have a scientific training. > >I see. > > >Unrelated observation: > >Why is it that Sanskrit always attracts geeks? :-) > I BEG YOUR PARDON!!!!! I thought the geeks studied biology... Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 18 22:45:21 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 23:45:21 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035832.23782.16026124423862649436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:56 18.02.98 +0100, you wrote: >Re: this discussion, on a more serious note maybe, has >there been any impartial examination of the "Out of India" >scholarship by Western scholars? The anecdotal evidence >seems to be that its overall level is pretty amateurish, >but surely there must be all kinds. Isn't there anything >useful that can be gotten out of it? I seem to recall >someone was writing a dissertation on that topic (Edwin >Bryant?) but it was more than a year ago and I have heard >nothing since. Is that dissertation now completed? I think Edwin is the first to do so, and from what I have seen of his work, his presentation is fair and good. But I agree that the question is interesting and merits more attention from scholarship. >To be fair it should be recognized that many important >questions on the expansion of IE languages still remain. >For example, regarding the IE expansion into Europe there >are two main theories, that of a Neolithic expansion >(Renfrew) and that of a Bronze Age expansion (Gimbutas, >Mallory, etc.) Also the proposals for the center of >dispersal are even more varied: Anatolia, the Balkans, >the southern Ukraine, Central Asia and more. I think the communis opinio is that the Indo-Europeans originated north of the Himalayas for various reasons. But saying where exactly they originated is a much more difficult question. I am quite open-minded about the Eurasian hypotheses, my reasons for not buying the out-of-India hypothesis can partly be read out of Mallory's work. Here are some: The distribution of grammatical features is much more varied and complex among the languages in the Eurasian area than in Indian Sanskrit. If Sanskrit is the "original I-E language" which seems to be the logical premise for the out-of-India theory, it is strange that so many grammatical features that occur in the I-E languages of Eurasia are unknown in India. In fact, Sanskrit represents a subset of the total mass of grammatical features found in Indo-European languages. And Sanskrit - or Sanskritic dialects - are at the root of all Indo-Aryan languages in India. Furthermore, Sanskrit shows traces of Dravidian languages, but there are no such traces north of the Himalayas. Then there are ethnological considerations. The further up in the mountains you get in the North-West, the more European-looking people are. On the (Western) Gangetic plain, people tend to be more fairskinned in the upper casts, which conforms with the conservative marriage habits of high-cast Indians. In my opinion, you cannot have an upper class that is ethnically different from the lower class unless the upper class is a remnant of an ethnical group that migrated into the area. Both these observations would fit well with the AIT. >One thing which is intriguing to me was that the picture for >India has not changed even while new proposals have appeared >for Europe. Can anyone briefly explain why a theory like >Renfrew came up with for Europe is simply not tenable (not >even Renfrew proposes it) in the case of India, whereas it >is, if not correct, at least not considered outright lunatic >for Europe? I think the picture has changed in several respects. See Parpola's book on "Deciphering the Indus Script". But the basic idea - that the Indo-Aryans came from north of the Himalayas - has not changed. I believe Mallory gives a critique of Renfrew's work. My own opinion is that the distribution of agricultural techniques and artifacts do not have to be coextensive with any one language or culture. Coca-Cola bottles on the Rhine do not indicate that Germans speak American English. Artifacts and techniques can be spread across language and cultural barriers, as we all know. I would therefore be sceptical of theories based solely on archaeology. By the way, here is a reference you might enjoy: Robert R. Sokal, Neal L. Oden, and Barbara A. Thomson: "Origins of the Indo-Europeans: Genetic Evidence". Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol, 89, pp. 7669-7673, 1992. The authors discuss both the models of Renfrew and Gimbutas and reject them. They do so without the flamboyant rhetoric some contenders in the present discussion like to use, but they are still worth reading. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Feb 18 22:49:45 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 23:49:45 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035834.23782.12641390582110347022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a previous post I asked "is there anything useful that can be gotten out of the Out of India scholarship"? A few minutes later I saw the post by Lars Martin Fosse outlining some of the statements made by one such "scholar", one Rajaram. Boy, oh boy! I think I must apologize to everyone for an attack of temporary insanity. I think that some of his statements go beyond mere ignorance and are outright dishonest. Take the statement on that Hittite horsemanship document. He must have known he was making that up. It is enough to open the Encyclopaedia Britannica to get things straight, that's really not a terribly mysterious piece of information. What really kills me is that he seems to have no qualms using Western scholarship when it suits his purpose (not to mention knowingly distorting its conclusions) without worrying that it might have been influenced by "the Church (btw, *which* Church?) and the British". I mean, who deciphered Hittite? Who translated that hippology text? Who identified the Sanskrit words in it? Wasn't it Western scholars? Isn't he worried about it? Not a bit. He takes what suits him and even embellishes on it. Anyway, that'll teach me. Sorry again. From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 19 08:57:33 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 00:57:33 -0800 Subject: Naciketas Message-ID: <161227035845.23782.4932228310936889441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >>Actually the MSS of the story of Naciketas, mostly variations of the >>name "NAsiketopAkhyAnam", are recent versions of the ancient story from >>the VrAha PurANa. >>All the commentators that I know of - old and modern, Western and >>Eastern - do not mention the recent story at all. Belloni-Filippi >>translated the MSS found in the British Library and S. Krause, who >>translated a Rajastani version of the story, refers to Belloni-Filippi. >>So, as far as I know, in commentating on KaTHopaniSad, no one refers to >>the recent versions of the story. >>If anybody could enlighten me about the subject, I shall appreciate it. >>Thanks in advance. > >I looked up "The Puranas", by Ludo Rocher and he hasn't mentioned any >story about Nachiketa in his section the skanda or the brahmANDa >purANa-s. He does mention a nachiketa story from the varAha >purANa. Apparently nachiketa describes his experience in yamaloka >after he gets back. However, as you might know, the varAha is >considered one of the later purANa-s, dates range from 10th - 12th >centuries. I have seen a quotation from the varAha in the >pa.nchadashI, by vidyAraNya (mid 14th century work). So the varAha >can't be later than that. Rocher also gives some work in the German >which refers to this story. So you may want to look that up to see if >you can get any leads from that. In any case this story would be much >later than the story from the kaTha. It's no surprise that most >commentators don't refer to this story, because the latest commentator >was AnandatIrtha, who founded the dvaita school, circa 12??. Maybe >vallabha who came much later, could have referred to it. > >Rama. > Thanks for the remarks. The old stories of Naciketas - the variations in Taittiriya Brahmana, Katha Upanishad, Mahabharata, Varaha purana - call him "Naciketas" and speak only about his father as family, never mentioning his mother. In the MSS that I have seen until now, which seem to be variations of the story in Varaha Purana, there are two main differences: 1 - "Naciketas" is turned into "NAsiketa" (with some variations), and the name is derived from "nAsa" - nose. 2 - The story gives an extended history of Nasiketa's mother - Candravati - and of his conception and birth through the nose. I believe that these differences have got a significance beyond the literary interest. That is the reason why I would like to find the first source in the scriptures where the changes took place. As i have mentioned, most MSS claim their origin in Bramanda Purana, but I have not come accross any text of this purana where the NAsiketopAkhyAnam could be found. I shall be grateful for any information in this matter. Thanks in advance. Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 Email: amnev at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Feb 19 14:16:56 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 09:16:56 -0500 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <447C249045C@Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU> Message-ID: <161227035855.23782.14534848094895829618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The debate on the Aryans is heating up again. I do not have the energy to enter into it on the net. However, since there was a reference to the Michigan-Lausanne 1996 seminar on the topic "Aryan and Non-Aryan in south Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology" in the recent discussion, I would like to inform that the papers presented at this seminar are being edited at the moment and we expect the volume to appear toward the end of 1998 or early 1999. The question of whether the migration of indo-european languages outward from India be justified on the basis of the available evidence was discussed at length at this seminar, and a special paper devoted to this topic by Professor Hans H. Hock will be included in the seminar volume. The volume will be published by the Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, and is edited by Johannes Bronkhorst and Madhav Deshpande. All I can say is that the enthusiastic reports about the demise of the Aryan migration theory are indeed premature. All the best, Madhav Deshpande From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Thu Feb 19 13:11:40 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 10:11:40 -0300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Alain_Dani=C3=A9lou?= Message-ID: <161227035852.23782.15248326728622314748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone please inform when did the discussion about Dani?lou's schollarship take place. Just month and year are enough. Thanks Jesualdo Correia From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Thu Feb 19 09:24:50 1998 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 10:24:50 +0100 Subject: BUDDHIST REJECTION OF MUSIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035847.23782.10981658448153751209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Jonathan! But may I ask, which of Sasaki Shizukas books you are speaking about? Jon. At 12:03 18.02.98 -0500, you wrote: >Please check first of all in the Pali Vinaya in English -- I do not have a >copy at hand, but there is a rule against seeing various performances, >dance, music etc. However, there is an exception to this (although perhaps >not in the Pali -- I don't remember) for performances at stupas. this has >been discussed in detail by Sasaki Shizuka (alas, in Japanese). Anyway, the >Vinaya stuff is the place to start, and perhaps that will answer your >question, since of course it is the Pali vinaya which is appealed to in >Thailand. > >Jonathan Silk >SILK at wmich.edu > > From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Thu Feb 19 09:31:48 1998 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 10:31:48 +0100 Subject: Forget last mail Message-ID: <161227035849.23782.21095767139653896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Last mail was intended jus to Jonathan Silk. Please ignore it. Jon From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Feb 19 00:39:43 1998 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 11:39:43 +1100 Subject: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v Message-ID: <161227035836.23782.2478020120003973456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ruth, In Gurudatt's novel Vishvaas (Bhaaratii Saahity Sadan, New Delhi:1970) one character says to another in conversation (I can't locate the exact spot) "koii baccaa-vaccaa hogaa". Richard richard.barz at anu.edu.au >Dear members of the list, > >I would be grateful for references to descriptions of doubled nouns in >Hindi-Urdu of the following type: > >First noun: is an ordinary noun >Second noun: is a nonsense word that begins with v (or m) and rhymes with >the first noun > >Examples: >caae vaae, 'tea, etc.' >saRak maRak, 'roads and highways, etc.' > >--If anyone would care to send further examples I would be very happy. > >--I am aware of Anvita Abbi's work on reduplicated words in South Asian >languages, but it has not reached us yet. > >My apologies for cross-postings. > >With best wishes, > >Ruth Schmidt > > >*********************************************** >Ruth Laila Schmidt >Dept of East European and Oriental Studies >University of Oslo >P.O. Box 1030 Blindern >N-0315 Oslo, Norway >Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 >Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 >Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 19 20:15:59 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 12:15:59 -0800 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035858.23782.6588413340178276734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> I (and many other Indians) personally find that Kannada and Telugu >> so similiar to >> other north-Indian languages that I refuse to believe that they >> belong to different language families until some concrete evidence >> that can be independently >> verified is offered. > >"similar to other north-Indian languages"? I hope there is a typo >there. There are heaps of concrete evidence. I shouldn't presume to speak for someone else, but I think this was no typo. For many Kannada and Telugu speakers, saying that these languages are similar to north Indian languages, and that they are allied to Sanskrit, serves as a way of setting themselves apart from Tamil and Tamil speakers. Since Sanskrit is popularly thought to be older than any other language, it also serves as a means of suggesting that Kannada and Telugu are somehow older than Tamil. No serious linguistic argument this, but a political one. But then, they are caught between a rock and a hard place, as the Americans say nowadays. Most Tamilians revel in their Dravidian "other"-ness, while most Indians north of Belgaum consider themselves fair-skinned Aryans. The fact that Tamil politicians have appropriated the word "Dravida" means that non-Tamil south Indians want to downplay their own associations with things Dravidian, and to align themselves with things "Aryan". Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Thu Feb 19 12:39:04 1998 From: jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 12:39:04 +0000 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035856.23782.11681533730217306287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Once more, this is significant, and this time I am quoting from Websters Dictionary : Humainities - Those subjects, as philosophy, literature, and the fine arts, that are concerned with human beings and culture Social Science - gen held to include sociology, psychology, anthropology, economics, political science and history. Furthermore, and curiously enough, does biology, management, engg. etc prepare a person to contribute to 'humanities' as 'math-physics' does not ? If Indology is just 'Humanities', history and chronology is not in its domain and the debate is moot in this forum. This is operationally not the case. This is a severe contradiction. If indeed Indology ligitimately involves historical science (which it does) then it involves the scientific method as well. This is a legitimate domain for scientists to comment; the nature of the evidence , the underlying assumptions and on any empirical data. Models have to stand up to falsifying data as well. I realize that Indology has been dominated by historical linguists who have constructed chronologies on this basis, which many deem absolute (ie onset of Aryan 'invasion' ~1500 BC etc). These have to be consistent with the new evidence and the old unexamined evidence to and this procees in incomplete. I think that AIT is indeed sputtering (aryans 'invaded' India in 1500 BC); Aryan migrations picture needs more construction. I have no quibble with Aryans migration in/out or neither/both. How does this ancient major river and the settlements factor in ? There is a complete silence on this matter and is indicative of the answer not being known (as yet). The lack of discussion is however interesting. And models being able to withstand Popperian falsification are more believeable. This is a charged subject for many reasons; However, it is this dialectic tension that serves to create new knowledge. Regards, J.B. Sharma > I'll end this message with a quote from Dominik Wujastyk, from a > message which all the list members should have seen when they > joined the list or visited the web site: > > ---quote--- > > Curiously, a scientific background in mathematics or physics seems to > be a particularly strong reason for someone not to participate in this > discussion group. It is a common misconception amongst scientists that > a scientific training prepares one to talk authoritatively about the > humanities: it doesn't. > > ---end quote--- > > RZ > From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Feb 19 21:14:15 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 15:14:15 -0600 Subject: The Cat Message-ID: <161227035864.23782.1823885824668431106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ms. Mary Storm wrote about a Kadamba King who killed himself upon seeing his pet parrot killed by a cat. Got little more curious and found a recent title. Padma Sudhi, Virtues of parrot-learning: thirty parrot tales from Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism. Western Ghat edition. (There is another book by the author: Aesthetic theories of India, 1990) N. Ganesan Aside: This parrot story reminds me of the Tamil Chola king Manuneethi Cholan legend. Pardon me, I don't know the equivalent story in Telugu. :-) From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 19 10:04:51 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 15:34:51 +0530 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035851.23782.10958465854783215692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I am afraid Mr. Subrahmanya is dreaming a happy dream. > I am very happy to be able to dream along with all Indian > archeologists. I value an archeologists evidence more than any kind > of arbitrary linguistic speculation. Probably this is not a subject to pursue very far, given Sri Subrahmanya's earlier statements on linguistics -- but I have to admit that I am curious (no offence intended to serious archaeologists) about how he thinks broken pieces of pottery etc. can say more than words. (By the way: as a discipline, archaeology is hardly more resistant against free flights of imagination than any other. Examples of craziness can be found there too, if you only keep your eyes open for them.) > I (and many other Indians) personally find that Kannada and Telugu > so similiar to > other north-Indian languages that I refuse to believe that they > belong to different language families until some concrete evidence > that can be independently > verified is offered. "similar to other north-Indian languages"? I hope there is a typo there. There are heaps of concrete evidence. I'll give only a few illustrations for the lesser informed on the list, just in case they are confused by the obscurantist statements that occasionally are made here. Some words: Tamil Kannada Sanskrit Hindi ----- ------- -------- ----- ira.n.tu era.du dvau do muu_n_ru muuru trii.ni tiin kai kai hasta haatha pa.l.li ha.l.li graama gaaMv Enough. Grammar: just think of the Dravidian relative participle (also known under different terms: like 'oodida' in the Kannada 'naanu oodida pustaka' for English "the book which I read"), which to my knowledge does not exist in the Indo-Aryan languages. > Even so called "Dravidian" experts acknowledge this structural > similiarity and come up with all kinds of convoluted ideas along > with lots of hand waving to explain it. If you have taken the trouble to look through some of the convoluted 'linguistic studies' written by people claiming to be linguists who tried to 'prove' that the Dravidian languages are descendants of Sanskrit, you will have surely understood the socio-political ideology behind such thinking. Sorry, but for the time being I, for one, am not convinced that "I (and many other Indians) personally" are more highly qualified as linguists than people (also very patriotic Indian people, mind you) who have dedicated a good deal of their professional lives to the subject in a disciplined manner. > there is no sign of an invasion !!. Who cares? Linguists don't. What matters for them is that languages migrate and change in the course of time. So instead of an 'invasion' there was some other kind of migration: how great a difference does it make, linguistically? (For ancient history it is a different matter; but this does not affect the basic linguistic issue.) The consensus that Indo-European came from outside the sub-continent still seems to stand among the professionals. See, e.g., J.E.M. Houben (ed.), _Ideology & Status of Sanskrit_ (Leiden, 1996), introduction; or the 1996 Ann Arbor conference on "Aryan and Non-Aryan in India". I'll end this message with a quote from Dominik Wujastyk, from a message which all the list members should have seen when they joined the list or visited the web site: ---quote--- Curiously, a scientific background in mathematics or physics seems to be a particularly strong reason for someone not to participate in this discussion group. It is a common misconception amongst scientists that a scientific training prepares one to talk authoritatively about the humanities: it doesn't. ---end quote--- RZ From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Feb 20 02:04:04 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 18:04:04 -0800 Subject: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v In-Reply-To: <199802192307.AAA21838@grootstal.nijmegen.inter.nl.net> Message-ID: <161227035872.23782.12484029180131492024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By the way, these "echo-formations" are of course not limited to Hindi: C. Masica (The Indo-Aryan Languages, pp.80-1) discusses them in the NIA languages generally, and further (in Defining a Linguistic Area, p. 189) lists them as an "Indian Area-Defining" feature (no.10, with references to Emeneau and Bloch), attested also in Dravidian and Munda. RS On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Dick Plukker wrote: > A few more examples of these wonderful expressions (quoted from Kavita Kumar, > Hindi for non-Hindi speaking people, Calcutta etc., 1994, p. 255-56): > ro.tii-vo.tii, kaafii-vaafii. She also gives the following echo's: > ta.rak-bha.rak, aamne-saamne, bhii.r-bhaa.r, hallaa-gullaa. > ------ > > To speed up things for you I quote from Anvita Abbi, o.c., p. 23: > > naam-vaam, dil-vil, .khuun-vuun, phal-val, aasaan-vaasaan, > tho.raa-vo.raa, tej-vej, dekhnaa-vekhnaa, ghiisnaa-viisnaa, chuunaa-vuunaa, > gaanaa-vaanaa, traas-vraas, pyaas-vyaas, ha/snaa-va/snaa, pe.m.t-ve.m.t, > bhai.m-vai.ms, udhaar-vudhaar, aam-vaam, ainak-vainak, uun-vuun > ii.m.t-vii.m.t. > With loss of initial v: vardaan-ardaan, vika.t-uka.t, vaayu-aayu. > Without v: gholnaa-olnaa, .tuu.tnaa-uu.tnaa, somvaar-omvaar. > ----- > > Some more: kaam-vaam, mez-vez; > .dhiilii-.dhaalii, dhuum-dhaam, saj-dhaj; > pa.rhnaa-a.rhnaa, baccaa-accaa; .thiik-.thaak. > > I recall forms like minister-winister, dance-wance in writers as > Rushdie and Deshpande. But there are many, many more. Actually, I believe > you can make echo-words yourself if you should want so. > > > >Dear members of the list, > > > >I would be grateful for references to descriptions of doubled nouns in > >Hindi-Urdu of the following type: > > > >First noun: is an ordinary noun > >Second noun: is a nonsense word that begins with v (or m) and rhymes with > >the first noun > > > >Examples: > >caae vaae, 'tea, etc.' > >saRak maRak, 'roads and highways, etc.' > > > >--If anyone would care to send further examples I would be very happy. > > > >--I am aware of Anvita Abbi's work on reduplicated words in South Asian > >languages, but it has not reached us yet. > > > >My apologies for cross-postings. > > > >With best wishes, > > > >Ruth Schmidt > > > > > >*********************************************** > >Ruth Laila Schmidt > >Dept of East European and Oriental Studies > >University of Oslo > >P.O. Box 1030 Blindern > >N-0315 Oslo, Norway > >Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 > >Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 > >Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no > > > > > Dick Plukker > India Institute, Amsterdam > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 20 03:50:23 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 19:50:23 -0800 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035877.23782.7160407600289822699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan says: <> I have heard interesting variations of this *superiority* thing from the different people in the South: 1. People who want to tell you that Tamil stands miles above the rest of the languages will stress 1. age factor 2. alternative tradition in Tamil i.e. otherness 3. "holy language"- since many of the classics in Tamil indirectly/sirectly suggest the holiness of Tamil and it's equivalence to Sanskrit in terms of addressing God. 2. People who want to tell you that Telugu is a cut above the other languages will start off by saying 1. IT is the "ITalian of the East" 2. IT is the most popular(Telugu has more speakers than other languages. 3. It's "superiority" can be gauged by the fact that non Telugus chose Telugu to compose in i.e. many musicians were Tamil speaking but wrote in Telugu, true of the 18-19th centuries. 3. People who want to talk about Kannada superiority will stress the fact that 1. it has won 6 Jnanpeeth awards 2. It is the ideal bridge between the north and the south since northern KAnnada is close to the North Indian languages and southern KAnnada close to the southern languages 3. It is therefore very user friendly... The most sensible people in this respect seem to be the Malayalis (mind you, I'm not a Malayali:-) who seem to be a little too mature to descend into all this gee-gawing about superiority and what have you...may their tribe increase... The reason why I brought up this is to lament the number of "books, commentaries" written about these languages which contain longer diatribes than any useful material...I have read books on Tamil literature by scholars like S.Illakkuvanar, Mu Varadarasanar and others which seem to be devoted to longer diatribes about Sanskrit and it's evil influence than discussing Tamil literature.(I'm not doubting their erudition in Tamil,but simply commenting about their style of presentation). If one were to read R.NArasimhachar's book on Kannada literature, it starts off by saying that there should be more translations of KAnnada works( a very noble and good thought) ESPECIALLY when there are so many translations of Tamil works:-(,:-(..this book is devoted to rants against Tamil as much as discussing KAnnada ...I find these kinds of academicians and tomes appalling and wish that people were more mature in their views..it is this that makes me think at times that scholarship about India is safer in Western hands( or atleast Indians teaching in the west i.e A.K.Ramanujan being a very good example) than Indians since if nothing else, the westerner would look at a matter dispassionately and not rave and rant on these tenacious issues.... Speaking for myself, I find all this talk about age, superiority and what have you down right silly and would like to quote the poet Rahim on this issue: "baDA huA to kyA huA, jaise pED khajUr | panthI kO chAyA nahI, phal lagai ati dUr||" (What is the point in being huge, like the date tree. It can neither provide shade to travellers and the fruits are a little too high to reach.)- flat translation My request to all people who want to investigate the descent of a word from which ever tongue is to adopt whatever logic that would convince them that a particular word is derived from their favorite source language ALONE and nowhere else..prolonged discussions of this sort serve only to promote unfriendliness and unhealthy competition.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 20:50:36 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 20:50:36 +0000 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035860.23782.14174842297555140984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > ... later I saw the post by Lars Martin Fosse outlining some of > the statements made by one such "scholar", one Rajaram. Boy, > oh boy! ... > > I think that some of his statements go beyond mere ignorance > and are outright dishonest. You raise a very interesting and extremely sensitive point. Members of INDOLOGY have by now got used to going a few rounds from time to time on the topic of the Aryan Homeland. Those of us with doctoral or post-doctoral qualifications in formal Indic studies have tended to assume that the people who incessantly propound secret Rig Vedic codes, astrological secrets, Himalayan homelands, and so on must be lacking in either acumen or else correct information. What none of us has grappled with seriously, at least in public, is the possibility that such people are mischievous or worse. I actually think that this topic is probably too hot to discuss in a public forum. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Feb 20 00:50:23 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 21:50:23 -0300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Dani=C3=A9lou?= Message-ID: <161227035871.23782.3895437907029672947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank all the messages both in public and private concerning the information around the Dani?lou's debate. Jesualdo Correia From vasur at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU Fri Feb 20 02:53:55 1998 From: vasur at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Vasu Renganathan) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 21:53:55 -0500 Subject: Tamil echo formation (Was Re: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035875.23782.8241061903465077495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unlike in Hindi, echo formation in Tamil (possibly in other Dravidian languages also) is quite regular. Almost all nouns in Tamil can form echo construction. When the first syllable of a noun is replaced either with ki or kI, we get the echo counter part. ki is used to replace syllables with short vowels and kI is used for long vowels. Examples: puttakam kittakam, vITu kITu, pATTu kITTu etc. Proper names: jAn kiin, mEri kIri, rAmasAmi kImasAmi Vowel initial words: ATu kITu, eRumpu kiRumpu, ENi kINi etc. (Some verbal participle forms also undergo echo formation: ATi kITi paar, pEsi kIsi vacciTAtE...) However, those nouns that begin either in ki or kii do not undergo echo formation. *kiLi kiLi, *kiitA kiitA... I guess the same is the case with other Dravidian languages Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada etc. I think Masica uses the features such as reduplication, onomotopoeic words, free word order etc., besides echo formation to substantiate his claim that "India is a linguistic area". Vasu. > By the way, these "echo-formations" are of course not limited to Hindi: C. > Masica (The > Indo-Aryan Languages, pp.80-1) discusses them in the NIA languages > generally, and further (in Defining a Linguistic Area, p. 189) lists them > as an "Indian Area-Defining" feature (no.10, with references to Emeneau > and Bloch), attested also in Dravidian and Munda. > > RS > > On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Dick Plukker wrote: > > > A few more examples of these wonderful expressions (quoted from Kavita Kumar, > > Hindi for non-Hindi speaking people, Calcutta etc., 1994, p. 255-56): > > ro.tii-vo.tii, kaafii-vaafii. She also gives the following echo's: > > ta.rak-bha.rak, aamne-saamne, bhii.r-bhaa.r, hallaa-gullaa. > > ------ > > > > To speed up things for you I quote from Anvita Abbi, o.c., p. 23: > > > > naam-vaam, dil-vil, .khuun-vuun, phal-val, aasaan-vaasaan, > > tho.raa-vo.raa, tej-vej, dekhnaa-vekhnaa, ghiisnaa-viisnaa, chuunaa-vuunaa, > > gaanaa-vaanaa, traas-vraas, pyaas-vyaas, ha/snaa-va/snaa, pe.m.t-ve.m.t, > > bhai.m-vai.ms, udhaar-vudhaar, aam-vaam, ainak-vainak, uun-vuun > > ii.m.t-vii.m.t. > > With loss of initial v: vardaan-ardaan, vika.t-uka.t, vaayu-aayu. > > Without v: gholnaa-olnaa, .tuu.tnaa-uu.tnaa, somvaar-omvaar. > > ----- > > > > Some more: kaam-vaam, mez-vez; > > .dhiilii-.dhaalii, dhuum-dhaam, saj-dhaj; > > pa.rhnaa-a.rhnaa, baccaa-accaa; .thiik-.thaak. > > > > I recall forms like minister-winister, dance-wance in writers as > > Rushdie and Deshpande. But there are many, many more. Actually, I believe > > you can make echo-words yourself if you should want so. > > > > > > >Dear members of the list, > > > > > >I would be grateful for references to descriptions of doubled nouns in > > >Hindi-Urdu of the following type: > > > > > >First noun: is an ordinary noun > > >Second noun: is a nonsense word that begins with v (or m) and rhymes with > > >the first noun > > > > > >Examples: > > >caae vaae, 'tea, etc.' > > >saRak maRak, 'roads and highways, etc.' > > > > > >--If anyone would care to send further examples I would be very happy. > > > > > >--I am aware of Anvita Abbi's work on reduplicated words in South Asian > > >languages, but it has not reached us yet. > > > > > >My apologies for cross-postings. > > > > > >With best wishes, > > > > > >Ruth Schmidt > > > > > > > > >*********************************************** > > >Ruth Laila Schmidt > > >Dept of East European and Oriental Studies > > >University of Oslo > > >P.O. Box 1030 Blindern > > >N-0315 Oslo, Norway > > >Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 > > >Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 > > >Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no > > > > > > > > Dick Plukker > > India Institute, Amsterdam > > > From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT Thu Feb 19 22:37:07 1998 From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 22:37:07 +0000 Subject: negations and their names In-Reply-To: <34E7C15C.D95B3EB@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227035866.23782.5306300280415881425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: >> >> > I recently was warned by Katsura Shoryu that it is incorrect to write a >> > hyphen in the expression Paryudasa- and Prasajya-pratisedha. According to >> > Katsura, "there is no cp. like 'paryudasa-pratisedha'. 'paryudasa' means >> > 'negation.'" >> > >> > However, I have found the term in Mahavyutpatti 4510; to this Katsura >> > suggests it may be a retranslation from Tibetan. OK. Again, I pointed out >> > that in Frits Staals' Reader in the Skt. Grammarians, p. 496, note 55, so >> > great an authority as Louis Renou uses the same term. OK. Even Homer nods. >> > >> > QUESTION: does the compound paryudaasa-pratis.edha exist in actual >>Sanskrit >> > texts? (I would expect that if it comes up, it would be in grammar or >> > logic, but any actual attestation would be of interest. ) > >I have never come across the compound paryudaasa-pratis.edha in a >Sanskrit text, that is, in Buddhist writings on the subject-matter of >apoha or anupalabdhi, and in related discussions (about abhaava and >anupalabdhi) in Nyaaya or Miimaam.saa-treatises. > >It seems to me that the lexical asymmetry between the two technical >terms >paryudaasa and prasajyapratis.edha was definitely perceived, and >occasionally deemed problematic. However, the commonly followed strategy >to >balance it out was cutting off the "pratis.edha" of prasajyapr. (which >leads to constructions such as "paryudaasapaks.e ...., prasajyapaks.e tu >...", or other occurrences of "prasajya" in the sense of >"prasajyapratis.edha"). The other option, that is, adding "pratis.edha" >to "paryudaasa", does not seem to have been realized. > >The Tibetan translations "ma yin dgag" and "med dgag" (for >paryudaasa/prasajyapratis.edha) are based on conceptual content rather >than on an analysis of the terms into component parts, and I think >Katsura is justified in considerind MVy 'paryudaasa-pratis.edha' as a >retranslation (and not a good one at that). > >It might be of interest that Prof. Kajiyama has raised the same question >at the last Dharmakiirti-conference (November last year in Hiroshima), >and to my >recollection, nobody could come up with a reference for >"paryudaasapratis.edha". > >-- >Birgit Kellner >Department for Indian Philosophy >Hiroshima University Only an incidental remark: I have found the expression paryudaasapratis.edha listed both in the word index of Kajiyama's translation of Moks.aakaragupta's Bauddhatarkabhaas.ya and in the termini index of M.T.Much' edition and German translation of Dharmakiirti's Vaadanyaaya. However, when I checked the pages referred to there I found no direct reference to specific texts. Even in the lengthy excursus on negation in Arcat.a's commentary on the Hetubindu the expression does not occur. Regards, Raffaele Torella Raffaele Torella, Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" (fax: 6-4451209) From D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET Thu Feb 19 23:07:15 1998 From: D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET (Dick Plukker) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 00:07:15 +0100 Subject: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v Message-ID: <161227035869.23782.13192235003351057266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few more examples of these wonderful expressions (quoted from Kavita Kumar, Hindi for non-Hindi speaking people, Calcutta etc., 1994, p. 255-56): ro.tii-vo.tii, kaafii-vaafii. She also gives the following echo's: ta.rak-bha.rak, aamne-saamne, bhii.r-bhaa.r, hallaa-gullaa. ------ To speed up things for you I quote from Anvita Abbi, o.c., p. 23: naam-vaam, dil-vil, .khuun-vuun, phal-val, aasaan-vaasaan, tho.raa-vo.raa, tej-vej, dekhnaa-vekhnaa, ghiisnaa-viisnaa, chuunaa-vuunaa, gaanaa-vaanaa, traas-vraas, pyaas-vyaas, ha/snaa-va/snaa, pe.m.t-ve.m.t, bhai.m-vai.ms, udhaar-vudhaar, aam-vaam, ainak-vainak, uun-vuun ii.m.t-vii.m.t. With loss of initial v: vardaan-ardaan, vika.t-uka.t, vaayu-aayu. Without v: gholnaa-olnaa, .tuu.tnaa-uu.tnaa, somvaar-omvaar. ----- Some more: kaam-vaam, mez-vez; .dhiilii-.dhaalii, dhuum-dhaam, saj-dhaj; pa.rhnaa-a.rhnaa, baccaa-accaa; .thiik-.thaak. I recall forms like minister-winister, dance-wance in writers as Rushdie and Deshpande. But there are many, many more. Actually, I believe you can make echo-words yourself if you should want so. >Dear members of the list, > >I would be grateful for references to descriptions of doubled nouns in >Hindi-Urdu of the following type: > >First noun: is an ordinary noun >Second noun: is a nonsense word that begins with v (or m) and rhymes with >the first noun > >Examples: >caae vaae, 'tea, etc.' >saRak maRak, 'roads and highways, etc.' > >--If anyone would care to send further examples I would be very happy. > >--I am aware of Anvita Abbi's work on reduplicated words in South Asian >languages, but it has not reached us yet. > >My apologies for cross-postings. > >With best wishes, > >Ruth Schmidt > > >*********************************************** >Ruth Laila Schmidt >Dept of East European and Oriental Studies >University of Oslo >P.O. Box 1030 Blindern >N-0315 Oslo, Norway >Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 >Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 >Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no > > Dick Plukker India Institute, Amsterdam From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 19 21:12:02 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 02:42:02 +0530 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035862.23782.11705854531019751824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J.B. Sharma wrote: > Social Science - gen held to include sociology, psychology, > anthropology, economics, political science and history. > > If Indology is just 'Humanities', history and chronology is not > in its domain and the debate is moot in this forum. This is > operationally not the case. This is a severe contradiction. Your quote said "gen held" ("generally", I presume), and I do not know who holds this. In my alma mater, history was in the faculty of humanities, not social sciences, and from a methodological view there is a good deal to be said in favour of that. So it is not evident that we have a contradiction here. And history is, very happily, a part of Indology. > If indeed Indology ligitimately involves historical science (which > it does) then it involves the scientific method as well. This is a > legitimate domain for scientists to comment; Interesting as this is, this would involve a fundamental debate on what 'science' and 'knowledge' and 'truth' are. That the human sciences (or 'humanities') cannot follow the same methods as the natural sciences ('sciences' in the Anglo-Saxon world) and yet give access to truths was already established a long time ago by theoreticians such as W. Dilthey, and we need not go through all that again here. > And models being able to withstand Popperian > falsification are more believeable. I imagine that a publicly accessible time machine would be still better, so that anyone can go have a look at history in the making. But this too may be just a bit too unrealistic. > Furthermore, and curiously enough, does biology, management, engg. > etc prepare a person to contribute to 'humanities' as > 'math-physics' does not ? Certainly not; I think we could also add farming, hairstyling, and a host of other things to the list of non-preparatory professional activities. But I think Dominik singled out those two particular fields for special mention on the basis of personal experience with the Indology List, and they should be thought of more as examples than as an exhaustive list. I hope you will understand that the remarks in my earlier message, to which you responded, were in response to repeated immature and irritating remarks about linguistics in particular, made by a person who is charmed by mathematics. That is why my remarks concerned linguistics and why I quoted that particular passage by Dominik Wujastyk. I have nothing against archaeologists / historians / mathematicians / physicists (nor farmers and hairstylists). But before criticising what e.g. mathematicians do, I would first seriously study mathematics -- but I notice that some people with 'scientific' pretensions do not similarly respect linguists and their discipline. RZ From Vaidix at AOL.COM Fri Feb 20 11:25:20 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 06:25:20 -0500 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035885.23782.11827243268167336578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello everyone, Humanities vs sciences divide is artificial, it only exposes lack of openmindedness on either side. Every artist knows that his/her art has to follow certain (scientific) measurements to be valid as a piece of art. And every scientist knows (should know) that the entire edifice of science is based on the initial assumptions which are not necessarily scientific. Linguistics for Indology more appropriately needs an approach that combines scientific and linguistic approaches, not one that separates them. I am a big fan of Prof Max Mueller. He made some very valid observations even though many of his conclusions wrong. One that I can never forget is his comparision of Biblical poetry of David and Vedic poetry. Prof Mueller says that Vedic poetry is more mechanical and lacks the beauty of Biblical poetry. Such statements have only helped Prof. Mueller being branded the way he was; but the fact remains. Vedic poetry is mechanical, in my opinion, for the simple reason that it is written by observing the various stages of the thought cycle. Different stages of the thought cycle are subject to various mechanical stresses and strains of the muscles that are often stimulated by the nervous impulses which follow their own logics. For a beginning on this subject please visit my site. I have not encountered any one who proved me wrong so far. BTW, the difference in skin color between higher castes and others does not prove the higher castes are a different race. There is no difference between features of dark and fair skinned Indians except for skin color; definitely not as much as the difference between African and European features. The preference for a spouse having fair skin is well known in Indian marriages. Presence of people with blue eyes in north western India does not prove anything either (it is just a matter of settlements across the border) ; in fact it raises the question why the blue eyes are not to be seen in higher castes in most other parts of north India. Indians of south Indian origin do have dark features, but Indians from eastern states have mongoloid features (a fact conveniently ignored by IE gang), which again proves that India was seen as a good place to settle. The incoming races mixed thoroughly for many millennia, being protected by ocean on one side and snow mountains on the other, had enough time to research into various subjects - an advantage not available to other civilizations. Thanks, Bhadraiah Mallampalli http://members.aol.com/vaidix From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Feb 20 14:32:00 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 08:32:00 -0600 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227035889.23782.3656330621670707298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forthcoming Books: 1) M. Andronov, Comparative Dravidian Grammar, will be published from Germany this year. 2) Sanford B. Steever (editor) The Dravidian languages (Routledge Language Family Descriptions) Feb. 1998 N. Ganesan From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Fri Feb 20 13:33:07 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 08:33:07 -0500 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035887.23782.8252403206442820173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Robert J. Zydenbos" writes: >"similar to other north-Indian languages"? I hope there is a typo >there. There are heaps of concrete evidence. I'll give only a few >illustrations for the lesser informed on the list, just in case >they are confused by the obscurantist statements that occasionally >are made here. Some words: > >Tamil Kannada Sanskrit Hindi >----- ------- -------- ----- >ira.n.tu era.du dvau do >muu_n_ru muuru trii.ni tiin I have seen lots of Kannada and Telugu people arguing that their language is from Sanskrit and not of Dravidian origin because they feel that somehow that makes them superior. This argument is based on some common words between Sanskrit and these languages. I have tried to point out that Malayalam which has much more Sanskrit words than other South Indian languages is hardly of Sanskrit origin, but in vain. It's more a political issue than anything else! Subhramanya would do well to read some of the works of George Hart or Kamil Zvelebil where he can find tonnes of references. Rama. From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Feb 20 14:44:41 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 08:44:41 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035898.23782.3831795174495270398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well I am tired of the disscussion too... I will try to answer from some of the questions raised... Here goes .... 1. Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Your arguments about languages being more reliable than archeology is untenable. You undermine your own arguments by stating that languages are arbitrary and hence more valid !!!. If languages are arbitrary..how in the world can you draw conclusive answers from studying them. I believe that Archeology is NOT arbitrary As for your ethnological reasoning for the AIT, less said the better. That kind of reasoning belongs to 1898 and not in 1998. Please show me any kind of data that there is genetic differences between brahmins and non-brahmins and that they are a different race, in any part of India. By your ethnological arguments (based on skin colour) you are unwittingly stating arguments similiar to those subscribed to in the beginning of this century and the previous and in fact recently here in the US there was(and still is) a guy named David Duke who was spouting the same observations. I will NOT respond to such arguments. You seem to prefer linguistic evidence (also stating at the same time that languages are arbitrary), wheras I value archeological evidence. Dont you think at the least that the models should corroborate evidences from each other so that we arrive at the truth ?. You want to conveniently ignore archeological findings (infact thousands of them) when it does'nt suit your model. 2. Mr. Robert J. Zydenbos YES....there is a similiarity between Northern and Southern languages in India. In fact you can just about do a one to one substitution of words and can easily translate sentences. To account for this, linguists have come up with their own theories - please ask some of the expert linguists on their theories as to how they account for this. naanu odida pustaka - kannada mayaa paTitaM pustakaM - sanskrit In school when we were learning sanskrit, the teacher used to tell us that we would be able to translate from English to Sanskrit very easily, if we first translated the English to our own mother tongue and then to Sanskrit. He was right, and it used to work all the time. Seeing so much commonality, I find it very hard to believe that somehow, English and Sanskrit are closer to each other than Kannada & Sanskrit. Please read some of the arguments used by linguists to explain this commonality, and you will see, why I find it so hard to believe them. 3. Mr. S.Krishna If someone claims to be a descendant from the moon it IS logical to laugh at it... but if someone claims he is from Dwaraka, dont you think that it maybe possible ? Is an outright rejection valid ? All the original sources refer to only places within the subcontinent and there never was any argument among pandits about some kind of origin from some faraway lands - until the word Arya was bastardized and all kinds of racial connotations were ascribed to passages in the Vedas. I waited to see reactions to Edwin Bryants posting, but there doesnt seem to be any.Could it be one of shock ? Now that Mr.Edwin Bryant has made his position clear, maybe some of the vocal supporters of the AIT are thinking that the Invasion theory is not on such a sure footing after all - especially now that a **non-Indian** (ignoring Mr.Jim Shafer, after all he is a mere archeologist) has said that THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF A ALTERNATIVE TO THE INVASION/MIGRATION THEORY. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No one knows what that alternative is, but atleast accepting that there might be an alternative is indeed a mighty positive change. The so called "evidence" for the Invasion theory has been built up over almost 150 years wheras the challenge to it from has come only within the past 15-20 years and has become more organized only within the past decade or so. After all, India gained independence only 50 years ago and time is needed to discard old euro-centric colonial thinking. Atleast a beginning has been made. Again, at the end - the thing that started this discussion thread was kuyil. Does anyone out there have an answer as to why it HAS to be of Dravidian origin ? anything else other than just assertions ? BTW,is the word for crow in Sanskrit, also of a supposed dravidian origin ? coz after all a cuckoo depends on the crow for its survival. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri Feb 20 14:45:24 1998 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 08:45:24 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Alain_Dani=C3=A9lou?= Message-ID: <161227035900.23782.5102246251739486097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Could someone please inform when did the >discussion about Dani?lou's schollarship >take place. Just month and year are enough. Thanks > >Jesualdo Correia April, 1997 From thillaud at UNICE.FR Fri Feb 20 08:09:40 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 09:09:40 +0100 Subject: "Lord of animals" - Bibliography In-Reply-To: <34EB300D.21BC@urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227035909.23782.8746652295184307972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> An acquaintance of mine, Professor in Catholic Theology, is looking for >> references/information about; "Lord of animals" (hope I got the right word >> in english! in German: Herr der Tiere) in various religions and asked me, >> if I could tell something about it from Indian context. I only know that >> "Siva" is known as the Lord of Animals in Hindu mythology, and as a native >> Telugu, know the story associated with the SreekALahasti (temple). >> >> Could the list members please point any books/articles on: Siva as the >> Lord of Animals. Please send a copy of your reply to the addresses given >> below too! Not an answer but a linked query. Why translate pazupati by "Lord of animals", "Herr der Tiere"? pazu, opposed to mRga, seems to be just the livestock, the domestic animals; and, as far I know, mRgapati is not a name of ziva nor rudra but of lion or tiger. The distinction between domestic and wild animals is very important: only the first ones are sacrified. The terms "Lord of cattle", "Herr des Viehes" would be perhaps better. Any comment? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Feb 20 15:16:36 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 09:16:36 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035901.23782.11601209005809617898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I waited to see if there was going to be any kind of reponse from the list members to Mr.Jacob Baltuchs accusation of Rajaram as a liar. I am pretty disappointed that no one did. What seems to have caused Baltuch to erupt is the following. a) E.g., R. claims that the book on horsemanship written by Kikkuli is "written i pure Sanskrit". It is actually written in Hittite, but there are a number of Sanskrit terms related to horses and horseracing in the book. Also Jacob Baltuch makes a vague general accusation as well "I think that some of his statements go beyond mere ignorance and are outright dishonest. Take the statement on that Hittite horsemanship document.". Would Jacob have made such an damning accusation against an academic of European or American origin? he does so, knowing fully well that he will get away with it against Rajaram. I just hope that these is just a single case run amuck, and such attitudes are not prevalent in all academia. I would like to request Lars Martin, to post the whole passage so that the digest members can get the complete picture and decide for themselves. It would do very well for Mr.Baltuch to remember the stuff that has come out of "invasion theory scholarship" and the havoc it has caused in the world before accusing "Out of India" proponents of dishonesty. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Fri Feb 20 14:33:50 1998 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 09:33:50 -0500 Subject: Call for Papers: _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Message-ID: <161227035890.23782.6900345306573667029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ About the Journal The aim of the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is to examine Hinduism centrally and in a special way. It wishes to consider Hinduism analytically and comparatively as a "form of life" as clarified by its contrasts and similarities to other historical and present day forms. This is to say that we will be less concerned with the intrinsic forms of Hinduism and its history, as illuminated by philological and descriptive studies. Rather, our focus will be, on the one hand, on Hinduism's adaptations to a wide range of historical circumstances and ecological, economic, and political possibilities and, on the other, on the Hindu forms that work "on the ground" in particular places and times to generate special kinds of social, cultural, and psychological order and problems. We consider this to be necessarily a comparative exploration and welcome (and need) contributions from scholars in other fields who wish to bring their own studies of religion, world views, theories of modernity and pre-modernity, social organization and social control, and so on, into dialogue with Hindu studies. We equally encourage South Asia scholars to explore such perspectives in their own work. We wish to explore whether it may be productive to ask--in addition to the descriptive "_What_ is Hinduism?"--the theoretical question (or questions, for we expect there is a large and productive set of answers) "_Why_ is Hinduism the way it is?" The Journal, therefore, invites submissions of a comparative or theoretical nature in all fields of the social sciences and humanities in the hope of furthering a dialogue that centers on one of the great human creations, Hinduism, which differs in so many respects from the religions and societies that have informed much of classical Western thought. Articles falling within the broad and deliberately somewhat vague boundaries we envisage will be chosen on the basis of the quality, importance and general interest of the research, the force of theoretical argument, and felicity of expression. Three copies of the paper should be submitted. All submissions will be peer reviewed. Completed manuscripts, inquiries about material for possible publication, and correspondence to the editor should be sent to the Journal's editorial office: Sushil Mittal, Editor, _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, International Institute of India Studies, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2. Tel (514) 771-0213, Fax (514) 771-2776, Email . Books for review and correspondence concerning reviews should be sent to: Carl Olson, Review Editor, _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, Department of Religious Studies, Allegheny College, Meadville, Pennsylvania 16335-3902, USA. Tel (814) 332-3313, Fax (814) 333-8180, Email _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ (ISSN 1022-4556) is published three times a year in April, August, and December. Annual subscription rates: Institutional: $150 (North America); $156 (Rest of world). Individual: $60 (North America); $66 (Rest of world). Students: $30 (North America); $36 (Rest of world). Orders from outside Canada must be paid in US dollars. Prices include postage. To order a subscription, to receive advertising information, or to reserve ad space in the Journal, contact World Heritage Press, Journals Department, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2. Tel (514) 771-0213, Fax (514) 771-2776. CONTENTS VOLUME 1, 1997 ~ 656 pages Number 3 (December): ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A BOOK SYMPOSIUM OF ROBERT I. LEVY'S _MESOCOSM_: HINDUISM AND THE ORGANIZATION OF A TRADITIONAL NEWAR CITY IN NEPAL_ Goddesses dancing in the city: Hinduism in an urban incarnation A review article ~ 441-84 Steven M. Parish, University of California, San Diego Sacred Space and the city: Greece and Bhaktapur ~ 485-499 Michael H. Jameson, Stanford University Macrocosm, mesocosm, and microcosm: The persistent nature of 'Hindu' beliefs and symbolical forms ~ 501-39 Michael Witzel, Harvard University Does symbolism 'construct an urban mesocosm'? Robert Levy's _Mesocosm_ and the question of value consensus in Bhaktapur ~ 541-64 David N. Gellner, Brunel University Kingship and 'contra-priests' ~ 565-80 Declan Quigley, Queen's University of Belfast Afterthoughts ~ 581-95 Robert I. Levy, Duke University BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES ~ 597-643 Number 2 (August): ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ When Rahu devours the moon: The myth of the birth of Krsna Caitanya ~ 221-64 Tony K. Stewart, North Carolina State University The yogi and the Goddess ~ 265-87 Nicholas F. Gier, University of Idaho Jaina ideology and early Mughal trade with Europeans ~ 288-313 Ellison Banks Findly, Trinity College Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part II of III: The imperative of the wish ~ 314-36 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado What's a God? The quest for the right understanding of devata in Brahmanical ritual theory (mimamsa) ~ 337-85 Francis X. Clooney, Boston College Radhakrishnan as advocate of the class/caste system as a universal religio-social system ~ 386-400 Robert N. Minor, University of Kansas Scandals, cover-ups, and other imagined occurences in the life of Ramakrsna: An examination of Jeffrey Kripal's _Kali's child_ ~ 401-20 Svami Atmajnanananda [birthname, Stuart Elkman], Ramakrsna Order BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES, ~ 421-40 Number 1 (April): ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The center and circumference of silence: Yoga, poststructuralism, and the rhetoric of paradox ~ 3-18 George Kalamaras, Indiana Univeristy-Purdue University Imagining Ayodhya: Utopia and its shadows in a Hindu landscape ~ 19-54 Philip Lutgendorf, University of Iowa The power of space in a traditional Hindu city ~ 55-71 Robert I. Levy, Duke University Mountains of wisdom: On the interface between Siddha and Vidyadhara cults and the Siddha orders in Medieval India ~ 73-95 David Gordon White, University of California, Santa Barbara Temple rites and temple servants: Religion's role in the survival of Kerala's Kutiyattam drama tradition ~ 97-115 Bruce M. Sullivan, Northern Arizona University Bengali religious nationalism and communalism ~ 117-39 Peter Heehs, Aurobindo Ashram Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part I of III: The promise of a culture ~ 141-64 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado Advaita Vedanta and typologies of multiplicity and unity: An interpretation of nondual knowledge ~ 165-88 Joseph Milne, University of Kent BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES ~ 189-220 JOURNAL HOMEPAGE Full details on the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal homepage at: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ The site includes a statement of aims and scope, list of editors, information for prospective contributors, reviewers, subscribers, and advertisers. Also includes contents, abstracts, and information about authors for each issue as published, and plans for upcoming issues. APPEAL Currently the International Institute of India Studies and World Heritage Press are engaged in a subscription drive on behalf of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. If you like what we are doing help us obtain new subscribers. 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Please send your order and inquiries to: World Heritage Press, Journals Divison, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Fax 514,771-2776 Tel 514,771-0213 ========================================================================== From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Fri Feb 20 10:02:16 1998 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 10:02:16 +0000 Subject: -vada / -vadin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035880.23782.4737613502765466665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan silk writes: >There is such a list, by SHIZUTANI Masao. While the discussion and >abstracts of the Indian Buddhist Inscriptions he treats are in Japanese, >all names are printed in Roman type, are indexed, and provided with Lueders >numbers. Take a look! (From memory: Indo Bukkyo Hibun Mokuroku --- but >somehow I think that is not quite right. As always, my copy is at home :-( and Peter Wyzlic writes: >There is already a Japanese work: > Shizutani, Masao: Indo bukkyo himei mokuroku. > Kyoto : Heirakuji shoten, 1979 > (Catalogue of Indian Buddhist inscriptions) > >It is said to contain a comprehensive (but not exhaustive) list >of inscriptions. It was unavailable in the German interlibrary >system, so I haven't seen it directly, though. In the late >eighties I contacted a bookseller in Tokyo who gave me the >information that it is out of print. > >Perhaps it may serve as a good starting point -- even if one does >not read Japanese. Thanks to both of you. I'll take a look at this. I do seem to remember seeing it reviewed. I'll try and look it up when I am in Oxford next week. It could be helpful with something I am doing. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Feb 20 16:16:58 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 10:16:58 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035914.23782.13158996773970816551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:53 AM 2/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >Just because translating word for word from a modern Indian language >is acceptable Modern Sanskrit, you cannot conclude that modern Indian >languages are descended from Sanskrit. > I am NOT asserting that modern Indian languages are descended from Sanskrit. All that I am suggesting is that the gulf that is supposed to exist between North and South Indian languages may not be all that is made out to be. Also the tendency of linguists to hurriedly classify words to be of dravidian or Indo-european without any kind of comprehensive verification is not valid. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Fri Feb 20 15:53:39 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 10:53:39 -0500 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035911.23782.682210969621665722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Since nobody would bite my post about periodization of Sanskrit, I will try to steer this that way :-)] "Sn. Subrahmanya" wrote: >[...] YES....there is a similiarity between Northern and Southern languages >in India. In fact you can just about do a one to one substitution of >words and can easily translate sentences. There is Sanskrit, and then there is Sanskrit. It is not at all clear that ``mayaa pustakam pa.thitam'' would have struck Panini as Sanskrit. Even to Patanjali, it probably would have seemed weird unless the sentence meant ``I have read the book'', [as opposed to `I read the book']. Of course, it would be right at home in drama dialogs. Medieval Sanskrit, in its syntax, had been deeply influenced by Prakrit. So much so, that some genres, like drama dialog, are just Prakrits in Sanskrit phonology. Modern Sanskrit, being modelled on medieval S., (with some further influences from modern languages), continues this. [Compare things like `vadan asti': this is ok in Hindi or English, but was bad Sanskrit even in 1900, at least according to V. S. Apte.] Just because translating word for word from a modern Indian language is acceptable Modern Sanskrit, you cannot conclude that modern Indian languages are descended from Sanskrit. From mgansten at SBBS.SE Fri Feb 20 10:24:54 1998 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 11:24:54 +0100 Subject: Sources for Hindu divination Message-ID: <161227035882.23782.5956886609979328279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to those who responded to my question about scholarly works on Hindu divination. Despite Georg von Simson's optimism, the bottom line (at least so far) seems to be that very little has been done in this area. General books on Hinduism do of course contain stray references to divination, but since the two works cited by Prof. v. Simson were published in 1912, the real action seems to have been elsewhere. The recently published "Light on Life" by deFouw and Svoboda, mentioned by Dominik, is a balanced and readable introduction to jyoti.hshaastra by two practitioners, but not the sort of thing I was looking for. In any case, thanks again to all. Best regards, Martin Gansten From rupert.gethin at BRISTOL.AC.UK Fri Feb 20 11:26:22 1998 From: rupert.gethin at BRISTOL.AC.UK (Rupert Gethin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 11:26:22 +0000 Subject: BUDDHIST REJECTION OF MUSIC Message-ID: <161227035884.23782.9335955710102014887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Ross Carter has published an article: 'Music in the Theravaada Buddhist heritage: in chant, in song, in Sri Lanka' in _On Understanding Buddhists: Essays on the Theravaada Tradition in Sri Lanka_ (Albany, NY: SUNY, 1993), 133-52. The starting point of this article is the story of how Sakka (who wants to approach the Buddha who is absorbed in meditaion) first requests the gandabbha Pa~ncasikha to charm the meditating Buddha with his vii.naa and song (Sakkapa~nha Sutta, D II 263ff). ---------------------- Dr Rupert Gethin University of Bristol Centre for Buddhist Studies Department of Theology and Religious Studies 3 Woodland Road, Bristol, BS8 1TB, UK Telephone: +44 117 928 7760 Fax: +44 117 929 7850 From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 20 21:52:07 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 13:52:07 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035927.23782.9495470237913307027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr Subrahmanya writes: >3. Mr. S.Krishna > If someone claims to be a descendant from the moon it IS logical to laugh at it... but if someone claims he is from Dwaraka, dont you think that it maybe possible ? Now, the conventional interpretation is that the residents of dvAraka were all yAdava and that the yAdava race self annihilated as a result of debauchery/merry making/partying before the passing away of kr~SNa 1.unless you have proof that there are people who survivedthe deluge/annihilation, you couldn't have had migration from dvAraka( this is scientific, isn't it?)... 2. assuming they went to Tamil Nadu, how did iruGkOvEl come up with figure of 49 generations? Is the genealogy recorded in any place? How can you arrive at the number of generations elapsed without knowing the genealogy? Dear MR Subrahmanya, I had asked you for references on Indians asser ting that all languages are descended from Sanskrit and all I get is assertions from you that they exist but no proof i.e. no text is quoted..I wonder why?:-) Please give me a source that says: "Telugu, Tamil, Kannada,Malayalam sarvE samskrtabhASAya: zizava:"( or a paraphrase there of) or some text that says, ( pardon my poor Sanskrit/ versification/both) " yathA gajAnanaSaDAnanayO: gaurI jananI | tathA telugukannaDayO : samskrt jananI ||" FYI, Monier Williams was the first one to postulate that all languages are derived from Sanskrit( Monier Williams was a great *nationalist* scholar, eh?...Arun Shourie assures us that his dictionary was compiled to help missionaries translate the bible into samskrt)until Alexander Campbell noted something contrary and the Dravidian theo ry was postulated much later.... IF kannaDa were really descended from Samskrt, then why is it that the kavirAjamArga( 850 AD) tells us that "A compound consisting of kannaDa and samskrt words is like putting a drop of buttermilk on boiling milk"...the mother's milk is poison for the child, huh?:-) Regards Krishna > Is an outright rejection valid ? > All the original sources refer to only places within the subcontinent >and there > never was any argument among pandits about some kind of origin from some >faraway > lands - until the word Arya was bastardized and all kinds of racial > connotations were ascribed to passages in the Vedas. > >I waited to see reactions to Edwin Bryants posting, but there doesnt seem >to be any.Could it be one of shock ? >Now that Mr.Edwin Bryant has made his position clear, maybe some of the vocal >supporters of the AIT are thinking that the Invasion theory is not on such a >sure >footing after all - especially now that a **non-Indian** (ignoring >Mr.Jim Shafer, after all he is a mere archeologist) has said that >THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF A ALTERNATIVE TO THE INVASION/MIGRATION THEORY. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >No one knows what that alternative is, but atleast accepting that there >might be an alternative >is indeed a mighty positive change. > >The so called "evidence" for the Invasion theory has been built up over >almost 150 years >wheras the challenge to it from has come only within the past 15-20 years >and has become more organized only within the past decade or so. After all, >India gained independence only 50 years ago and time is needed to discard >old euro-centric colonial thinking. >Atleast a beginning has been made. > >Again, at the end - the thing that started this discussion thread was kuyil. >Does anyone out there have an answer as to why it HAS to be of >Dravidian origin ? anything else other than just assertions ? > >BTW,is the word for crow in Sanskrit, also of a supposed dravidian origin ? >coz after all a cuckoo depends on the crow for its survival. > >Subrahmanya >Houston, TX > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Feb 20 20:43:54 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 14:43:54 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035923.23782.7895330131658333873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subtitle: mAyAmOhana avatAra ******************************* Interestingly, anti-linguists remind us of the brahmanical redaction of the Buddha legend in Vishnupurana. The main intent is to lead to confusion. The Vishnupurana regards Buddha as a mischievous seducer and illusion maker who appeared in the world to delude the demons. Anti-linguist elites in India dislike Robert Caldwell to the core. Before him, South Indians were conventionally taught that all Dravidian languages come from Sanskrit. I hear that from some elites from South even today. Regards, N. Ganesan From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Feb 20 04:06:34 1998 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 15:06:34 +1100 Subject: Sources for Hindu divination Message-ID: <161227035878.23782.4099578953810752515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Angavijja / edited by Muni Punyavijaya. >> Varanasi : Prakrta grantha Parisad, 1957. >> (Prakrit Text Society series ; no.1). > >Ah, isn't this the book which lists everything in the universe? Quite true Dominik, from what I remember the prognostications from shadows are fun. From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Fri Feb 20 21:09:05 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 15:09:05 -0600 Subject: Windows 95 Message-ID: <161227035925.23782.4093644139243030131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Windows 95 itself should have nothing to do with fonts, although some software reportedly is less than compatible with some fonts. Evidently some font generators do not completely follow the standards and have problems when software goes to new version. I have used several different fonts on several different versions of word processors, and have not noticed any problems. My favorite software is Ralph Bunker's Vedatype, which has a fast and efficient stand alone version and also can support Microsoft word for slower typing but fancier text. It also can support a wide variety of fonts, when trained. Including Peter Freund's excellent devanagari font with over a thousand character pieces, transliteration, etc. He has experimental mappings for Telegu and Tamil fonts. -----Original Message----- From: Lars Martin Fosse To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 10:45 AM Subject: Windows 95 >Dear members of the honorable net! > >I am - finally - considering upgrading from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. > >Have any of you had problems with romanized fonts (or other Indologically >relevant fonts) in connection with such an operation? > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 20 15:21:58 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 15:21:58 +0000 Subject: Naciketas In-Reply-To: <19980219085741.27231.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227035905.23782.12150334657731823357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See New Catalogus Catalogorum / Raghavan et al. under "Naciketopaakhyaana" (9.321), "Naasiketopaakhyaana" (10.110) and especially "Naaciketopaakhyaana" (10.23-24), where a romanized edition and Italian translation in the Giornale dellla Soc. Asiatica Italiana 1902-4 is referred to. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Feb 20 14:36:02 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 15:36:02 +0100 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035896.23782.11469411760311177843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >BTW, the difference in skin color between higher castes and others does not >prove the higher castes are a different race. There is no difference between >features of dark and fair skinned Indians except for skin color; definitely >not as much as the difference between African and European features. The >preference for a spouse having fair skin is well known in Indian marriages. That is true. But you have to explain why fair skin is preferable. The most reasonable explanation, in my opinion, is that fair skin was once connected with high social status. >Presence of people with blue eyes in north western India does not prove >anything either (it is just a matter of settlements across the border) ; in >fact it raises the question why the blue eyes are not to be seen in higher >castes in most other parts of north India. >Indians of south Indian origin do have dark features, but Indians from eastern >states have mongoloid features (a fact conveniently ignored by IE gang), which >again proves that India was seen as a good place to settle. The incoming >races mixed thoroughly for many millennia, being protected by ocean on one >side and snow mountains on the other, had enough time to research into various >subjects - an advantage not available to other civilizations. This observation is, of course, quite true! India is a place where lots of people have met and mixed. It was a good place to live, and a place people would rather come to than leave. That there is a mixing of races in India is also obvious. Even the Indo-Europeans mixed with the locals, in spite of their conservative marriage habits. But I don't think the IE gang ignores the fact that Indians in the eastern states have mongoloid features! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 20 15:39:03 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 15:39:03 +0000 Subject: CASS Website Message-ID: <161227035907.23782.401390693906131629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. V. N. Jha of Pune University has asked me to publicize the new web site of the Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit. The address is http://www.unipune.ernet.in/dept/cass/san_home.htm and I have made a link from the INDOLOGY web page, under "Institutions...". The work of CASS is well known to many of us, of course, but they are now offering some new MA programmes, as well as courses specifically tailored for students from outside India, and possibilities for collaborative programmes with other universities. Definitely worth a shufti. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From umadevi at SFO.COM Fri Feb 20 23:54:08 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 15:54:08 -0800 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227035935.23782.5657606894415316832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is just too wierd and wonderful to pass up. I understand that there is apparently a cult in Kashmir dedicated to the propagation of this belief. It's sort of like the Mormon idea that Jesus spent time in South America after the Resurrection. I think Moses was also supposed to have spent some time in Kashmir as well? Anybody know anything about that? There is even a tomb of Moses' somewhere ? Mary Storm From John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Fri Feb 20 15:07:57 1998 From: John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (John Dunne) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 16:07:57 +0100 Subject: more on aatma-/asatkhyaati In-Reply-To: <19980213123654.21188.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227035903.23782.9882730609845216611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Olenev Dmitry remarks: > I would like to thank all those who answered my question of khyaati >theory; all answers were very essential and helpful. Especially I >appreciated the reference to Schmithusen's book about Vibhramaviveka. > My problem was to know the point of buddhist theories of false >cognition AS EXPLAINED IN BUDDHIST SOURCES because I'm not sure of >maadhyasthyam of brahmanist philosophers who critisized these theories. > Well, since I don't really have time to be writing this message, I've been waiting for someone else to state what is perhaps already obvious: the terms *aatmakhyaati* and *asatkhyaati* are not "Buddhist" terms, in the sense that they were neither coined nor favored by Buddhist authors. Dharmakiirti, for example, does not use them at all, and to my knowledge, they are not employed by the two earliest commentators on Dharmakiirti, namely, Devendrabuddhi and Zaakyabuddhi. The question of perceptual illusion is particularly important in "pramaa.navaada" discourse; hence, the fact that Dharmakiirti and his early commentators shun these terms may suggest either that they were unaware of them, or that they perceived the terms as a strategem to draw them into a debate that they could not win. For your information, two particularly important passages for Dharmakiirti's discussion of perceptual error come to mind. Since I already have all this stuff on my hard-disk, I'll just splatter it here: 1st passage: Pramaa.navaarttika III(pratyak.sa):299-300 (commentaries: Devendrabuddhi, Derge tshad ma che, 211b7ff; Zaakyabuddhi, tsad ma nye, 216a6ff); 2nd passage: Dharmakiirti's fairly lengthy comments on Pramaa.navaartika I.98-99ab in his Svav.rtti (Gnoli edition, pp. 49-51; commentaries: Zaakyabuddhi, Derge tsad ma je, 111a6ff, most of ZB's Sanskrit included in Kar.nakagomin's comments, p. 206ff -- read *zaktilak.sa.naahitaa* for the mistaken *zaktilak.sa.naaaditaa* on p.206, line 19-20; some interesting differences betweek Kar.nakagomin and Zaakyabuddhi here). There are, of course, other relevant passages, but these two are particularly approprite. The 2nd passage, which is ostensibly about *pratyabhij~naana* ("recognition"), is the most relevant, for it quickly digresses into the type of discussion about illusion in which one would expect some mention of aatma-/asatkhyaati (and anyathaakhyaati, vipariitakhyaati, etc.). Not only are these terms relevant, but the positions they describe are discussed; nevertheless, the terms themselves are not mentioned. Kar.nakagomin, in his usual zeal for (often incorrectly) identifying puurvapak.sas, says that the theories of both Uddyotakara and Kumaarila are being refuted here (p. 207, last para.). Although Uddyotakara is probably under discussion, I am still unconvinced that Dharmakiirti responds to the *Zlokavaartika* in his *Svav.rtti*. In any case, K-gomin's mention of these two once again points to the relevance of raising aatma-/asatkhyaati, if only for completeness. With regard to this passage from the Svav.rtti and its commentaries, the question remains whether these terms are deliberately avoided or simply not yet in current usage. Of course, by the time of Kar.nakagomin (ca. 1000), Vaacaspatimizra had already used the terms fairly extensively; nevertheless, their absence in Kar.nakagomin may simply reflect their absence in the earlier sources on which he relied ("relied" here usually means "copied"). Hence, for my purposes an interesting question would be: "were these terms in common usage by Zaakyabuddhi's time (ca. 700)?" Perhaps Schmithausen's book has already given an answer. As for later Buddhists, it might be worth a glance at Praj~naakaragupta's commentary on the first passage I mentioned. Speaking of Schmithausen's book, Birgit notes: left,outMan.d.anami'sra's treatment of the aatma-/asatkhyaati is given on p.233-236, where, in addition to a Yogaacaara-aatmakhyaati, Schmithausen also refers to a "more complicated" Sautraantika-aatmakhyaati which can left,out,outbe found in Dignaaga's Pramaan.asamuccaya and in Dharmakiirti's texts. < I assume that Schmithausen is referring to Ma.n.danamizra's version of Yogaacaara and Sautraantika. Since Dharmakiirti, at least, does not use these terms, it seems highly problematic to apply them to his philosophy. Indeed, *aatmakhyaati* is not a very accurate way of describing Dharmakiirti's theory of error, whether taken from the perspective of assuming or denying external objects. Oh, and by the way, the Svav.rtti passage I mentioned quite clearly deals with both *baahyaarthavaada* (or the so-called *sautraantika*) as well as *antarj~neyavaada* (the preferred term for *yogaacaara* in much of the commentarial literature on Dharmakiirti). Needless to say, *aalayavij~naana* and *vaasanaa* play an important role in Dharmakiirti's theory. Moving beyond Dharmakiirti (et. al.), I would also claim that *asatkhyaati* is a distorted way of describing a madhyamaka style theory of error, primarily because it collapses the distinction between the "two truths" (*satyadvaya*). It doesn't even work for Candarakiirti's radical form of Madhyamaka. A particularly relevant passage that comes to mind is Madhyamakaavataara 6.28 with the bhaa.sya; see also Jayananda's interesting commentary on this portion. You may also want to look at David Eckel's work on the use of the rope-snake illusion as a metaphor in Bhaavaviveka. For me, the best way to understand Buddhist theories of error is focus on the simple and ubiquitous formulation: *atasmi.ms tadj~naana*. But perhaps that is too easy an answer. I hope all this blabbing proved helpful. Yours, John Dunne ______________________________ John Dunne Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 5912 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Feb 20 21:53:16 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 16:53:16 -0500 Subject: Linguistics and Out-of-India model In-Reply-To: <199802201736.SAA08182@wes2.limmat.ch> Message-ID: <161227035929.23782.5726878472810671809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, wieson wrote: > I for one would be very interested in seeing hard evidence for an > 'out-of-India' model. I find the idea interesting, but I reserve the right > to be hesitant, which by the way has nothing to do with skin color. I > believe there are *linguistic* problems assuming an Indian homeland, > although there is always room for an alternative explanation. Dear John, There is no (or almost no) hard evidence for an out-of-India model. So, a priori, the terms of any kind of debate must be cast in negative terms, vis: what are the defects of the 'hard' evidence for the *into-India* model. Those questioning this standard model can only proceed by deconstructing this evidence, not by offering anything positive. The Indo-Aryan lacuna in the archaeological record is what has triggered off this whole debate which has been gaining momentum over the last decade (though it has been contested on philological and linguistic grounds by Indian intellectuals for over a century). However, the migration hypothesis was predicated on linguistic evidence and it is this that has to be addressed by those wishing to contest the theory. The linguistic evidence is primarily threefold: 1) linguistic palaeontology, 2) Dravidian or other non-Indo-European linguistic substratum in Sanskrit texts, 3) loan words from Indo-Aryan into other language families remote from the subcontinent such as Finno-Ugric. All this evidence, when trimmed of various excesses and unwarranted assumptions, still produces a very compelling case in support of an external origin for the Indo-Aryans into the subcontinent. Let us be clear: this theory has by no means been disproved, nor is it at all likely to be in the absence of additional data. The question is: does this evidence disallow any other possible interpretation? The Aryan invasion/migration theory is very widely rejected in India (and I suspect from the tenor of one or two recent comments that some members of this list have no idea how widespread this rejection is in mainstream academic, and not just in right-wing or neo-Hindu, circles). In view of this rising dissent from India, I felt that it was incumbent on critical scholars who have taken it upon themselves to write about the ancient history of the subcontinent to reexamine all the data and the assumptions upon which they are predicated to determine whether there is any legitimacy to alternative points of view. In my analysis of the linguistic evidence (and I dedicate a chapter to each of the three linguistic areas listed above), all the data can actually be reconfigured in ways which do not necessarily have to support the idea of an Indo-Aryan linguistic mouvement into the NW of the subcontinent (although the languages clearly spread from the NW to the East and South). This is not to say that it supports a mouvement out either. It definitely does not. Nor, as I mentioned, does such possible reconfiguration *disprove* the standard model: it is all negative evidence. but the fact that any kind of reconfiguration can be done at all, in my opinion, indicates how malleable the so-called evidence actually is. At this point, the scholar has to resort to Occam's razor, vis, what is the simplest and less convoluted way of accounting for the data? At the risk of venturing into futurology, I predict that there will be an increasingly widening divide between primarily (but by no means exclusively) scholars in India, and primarily (but not exclusively) Western scholars on the application of Occam's razor in this matter. Inevitably, at this point one runs into the issue of agendas. Why does one scholar *choose* (or even insist on) a certain interpretation of the data, and another scholar select a diametrically opposing model? Here again, we run into the stereotypification that immediately springs from such considerations, the standard: "Indologists are all neo-colonialists" mottos from one side and the becoming-just-as-standard: "Revisionists all have covert Hindutva or neo-Hindu agendas" mantras on the other. That's why I am not prepared to discuss this issue any further at this point (and I would appreciate it if my name kindly *NOT* be brandished in support of any position as it was in the posting this morning). My dissertation will hopefully be available soon. Madhav has notified you of the forthcoming Aryan and Non-Aryan volume, which, as I understand (but have not yet read since it was not presented at the conference), contains an article by Hock on the linguistic evidence *in support* of the Aryan migration hypothesis. I am also co-editing a volume with Laurie Patton specifically on this debate (hopefully for classroom use) which Curzon is picking up. So there will soon be plenty of extensive material on these issues by critical scholars upon which you can all draw your own conclusions. The important thing is to extract this debate from the exclusive monopoly of people who have overt agendas but a much less overt level of critical scholarly ability (or interest). In other words, there will soon be alternative sources to Rajaram and Frawley, etc. My work includes 3 chapters on the socio-religio-political environment of this debate (on the 19th Cent European context, on the 19th Cent Indian response, and on the modern Indian context of the debate-Hindutva, etc)--four chapters on linguistics (the 3 above plus one on the "dethronement of Sanskrit"), two on archaeology and one on the dating of the Veda (which includes an analysis of the so-called astro-chronological approach). It all needs considerable revision. I do not support a particular position but have attempted to present all the relevant data and all rational ways of interpreting it (although this alone makes me fearful that the work be appropriated and taken out of context). The edited volume will contain a variety of views and standpoints to make the flavour of this 'debate' available to the educated (but not necessarily specialized) public, and the Michigan volume will likewise contain a number of (perhaps slightly more specialized) articles relevant to this theme. So we will soon have plenty of 'scholarly' sources upon which to have a serious discussion. In the meantime, I suggest we drop this thread. Hope this information is of use. Regards, Edwin Bryant Edwin Bryant Committee for the Study of Religion Harvard University 12 Quincy Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 (617) 496 1010 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Feb 20 15:59:51 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 16:59:51 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035912.23782.10922699302301154533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I would like to request Lars Martin, to post the whole passage so that >the digest members can get the complete picture and decide for themselves. Here is Rajaram's own words, from "The Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization", p. 123: .... In the years following the discovery of the Hittite-Mittani treaty with its Sanskrit names, the linguistic situation has grown only murkier and bedeviled by more contradictions. For instance, among the Hittite records in Anatolia has been found a manual on horse training [i.e. the manual of Kikkuli, LMF] written in what is virtually pure Sanskrit. Now there are more than a hundred such records testifying to the use of Sanskrit and Indian names. And all this dating to a period well before the hypothetical division of the Indians and the Iranians, at a time when the Sanskrit language supposedly did not even exist. ..." Comment: Kikkuli's manual goes back to the middle of the second millennium BCE. The Indo-Aryans and Iranians are assumed to have split up about 2000 BCE, if I remember correctly. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Feb 21 01:08:28 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 17:08:28 -0800 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227035938.23782.10553880622487592117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 2/20/98 Jonathan Silk wrote: >A friend has sent me the following question: > >A book called The Lost Years of Jesus is going to be published in Japanese >translation and the translator wants to know what was the reaction of >Indologists in the West to the theory that Jesus was in India and Tibet >during those 17 years. > >Any references to debunking of this nonsense? Many thanks in advance! I recently received the American Academy of Religion's call for papers for the 1998 meeting in Nov. of this year. On page 5, under the heading Religion in South Asia, one of the suggested topics is, yes, "lost years of Jesus in India," and the contact person is said to be Brian Smith. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Feb 20 23:39:28 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 17:39:28 -0600 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035931.23782.12031399494607114239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Dear MR Subrahmanya, I had asked you for references on Indians asser >ting that all languages are descended from Sanskrit and all I get >is assertions from you that they exist but no proof i.e. no text is >quoted..I wonder why?:-) Please point out where I said that all languages are descended from Sanskrit ? Ask whoever asserted that all languages descended from sanskrit to give you the references. My response to Vidhyanath Rao's posting is given below. Hopefully that should answer your question. ----------------------- I am NOT asserting that modern Indian languages are descended from Sanskrit. All that I am suggesting is that the gulf that is supposed to exist between North and South Indian languages may not be all that is made out to be. Also the tendency of linguists to hurriedly classify words to be of dravidian or Indo-european without any kind of comprehensive verification is not valid. ------------------------ Your second comment was > IF kannaDa were really descended from Samskrt, then why is it that the >kavirAjamArga( 850 AD) tells us that "A compound consisting of kannaDa >and samskrt words is like putting a drop of buttermilk on boiling >milk"...the mother's milk is poison for the child, huh?:-) > I have no idea what you are talking about. I havent read the Kavirajamarga so I do not know. However, I have "heard" that there is a dispute among scholars as how to interpret 'anya desiya'. I believe some scholars assume that anya desiya automatically refers to sanskrit wheras others do not. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Feb 20 16:45:48 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 17:45:48 +0100 Subject: Windows 95 Message-ID: <161227035916.23782.4570615664134958050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the honorable net! I am - finally - considering upgrading from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. Have any of you had problems with romanized fonts (or other Indologically relevant fonts) in connection with such an operation? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU Sat Feb 21 01:10:44 1998 From: sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU (Paul (Kekai) Manansala) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: Linguistics and Out-of-India model In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035940.23782.17427952182229408409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Edwin Bryant wrote: > > My dissertation will hopefully be available soon. Madhav has notified you > of the forthcoming Aryan and Non-Aryan volume, which, as I understand > (but have not yet read since it was not presented at the conference), > contains an article by Hock on the linguistic evidence *in support* of the > Aryan migration hypothesis. I am also co-editing a volume with > Laurie Patton specifically on this debate (hopefully for classroom > use) which Curzon is picking up. So there will soon be plenty of > extensive material on these issues by critical scholars upon which you can > all draw your own conclusions. The important thing is to extract this > debate from the exclusive monopoly of people who have overt agendas > but a much less overt level of critical scholarly ability (or interest). > In other words, there will soon be alternative sources to Rajaram and > Frawley, etc. > There are already are alternatives. Try _The archaeology of ancient Indian cities_ by Dilip K. Chakrabarti (Delhi: Oxford India, 1995, 1997). Allchin's book also summarized many of the problems and contrary evidence against the Aryan migration theory. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From wieson at RAINBOW.CH Fri Feb 20 17:28:14 1998 From: wieson at RAINBOW.CH (wieson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 18:28:14 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan - Dravidian bhaaii bhaaii Message-ID: <161227035918.23782.1781606657613910662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have the feeling that there are a few misconceptions here about linguistics (here I go again!): > 1. Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Your arguments about languages being more reliable than archeology > is untenable. You undermine your own arguments by stating that > languages are arbitrary and hence more valid !!!. I believe what Lars meant was the following: language IS a relatively arbitrary system: It can be organized along a number of patterns (although it is never COMPLETELY arbitrary). What makes it valid (NOT more valid than archaeology) is when two supposedly arbitrary systems show surprising similarities. Then, depending on the circumstances, these may be: 1. coincidental, 2. due to typological considerations; 3. due to a genetic relationship, 4. due to LANGUAGE CONTACT. It seems to me that it is the language contact phenomenon that will undoubtedly prove the most useful in explaining similarites between Marathi and Kannada. This is actually a very well known example of contact phenomena and almost every beginning linguist gets a few sentences from a village in Maharashtra (it's been too long, I've forgotten the name) to see how, in the course of time, unrelated languages can converge in syntax and semantics. This is of course not a proof that they aren't related. Granted, that was the original assumption. But, assuming that they were unrelated, there is nothing which is at all atypical here. This has happened over and over in all parts of the world. That's why we speak of a 'South Asian linguistic area', a 'Balkan linguistic area', a 'Central American linguistic area', etc. And even if they were related, we still would never expect such a huge amount of exact correspondences, since genetic similarities in the syntax are often the first to fade - just compare English and German morphosyntax, or Latin and Italian. Or, for that matter, Vedic and Hindi or Shina and Sinhalese. When two languages can in fact be translated word-for-word (or rather, morpheme-for-morpheme) one into the other, this is most likely due to contact, not a genetic relation going back thousands of years, unless of course they were in close contact during that time. > 2. Mr. Robert J. Zydenbos > YES....there is a similiarity between Northern and Southern languages > in India. In fact you can just about do a one to one substitution of > words and > can easily translate sentences. To account for this, linguists have come up > with their own theories - please ask some of the expert linguists on their > theories as to how they account for this. > naanu odida pustaka - kannada > mayaa paTitaM pustakaM - sanskrit > In school when we were learning sanskrit, the teacher used to tell us > that we would > be able to translate from English to Sanskrit very easily, if we first > translated the > English to our own mother tongue and then to Sanskrit. He was right, and > it used to work > all the time. Seeing so much commonality, I find it very hard to believe > that somehow, > English and Sanskrit are closer to each other than Kannada & Sanskrit. > Please read some of the arguments used by linguists to explain this > commonality, > and you will see, why I find it so hard to believe them. I believe that several thousand years of non-contact will have left just as many marks on English and Sanskrit (or rather, Indo-Aryan) as will thousands of years of contact between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian. Nonetheless, it is certainly justified to ask what sense there is in making up a stammbaum-type history when other factors (such as contact, here) are involved. Another problem with this type of genetic relationship: Are creoles based on English Indo-European? If they're not Indo-European, what are they? Certainly not Bantu (or whatever), if most of the vocabulary comes from English and few signs of an African substratum are to be found. But one would normally hesitate to call them Indo-European (and certainly not English, as they have a full-fledged grammar of their own), seeing as they generally have only been in existence for a few hundred years, while with Indo-European we think in thousands. So what are they? This type of classification certainly has its limits, even though it is a useful guide sometimes. Another case in point, which I am currently working on:. Although it is not possible to translate morpheme for morpheme from Newari into Nepali, the grammars of the two languages have remarkable similarities, which can only be explained by the fact that the speakers of these two languages have been in close contact for centuries. This does not mean that Newari is Indo-Aryan, nor does it point to a Tibeto-Burman origin of Nepali. It just points to centuries of bilingualism. Newari has left an indelible mark on Nepali. Nepali is now doing the same in the Kiranti languages of Eastern Nepal. Here again - Nepali is not Kiranti, and Camling is not Indo-European. They are merely in a contact situation where virtually all Kiranti speakers are fluent in Nepali. I for one would be very interested in seeing hard evidence for an 'out-of-India' model. I find the idea interesting, but I reserve the right to be hesitant, which by the way has nothing to do with skin color. I believe there are *linguistic* problems assuming an Indian homeland, although there is always room for an alternative explanation. John From silk at WMICH.EDU Fri Feb 20 23:44:26 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 18:44:26 -0500 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227035933.23782.4891648805503520015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for this, but: A friend has sent me the following question: A book called The Lost Years of Jesus is going to be published in Japanese translation and the translator wants to know what was the reaction of Indologists in the West to the theory that Jesus was in India and Tibet during those 17 years. Any references to debunking of this nonsense? Many thanks in advance! Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE Fri Feb 20 17:59:58 1998 From: ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 18:59:58 +0100 Subject: Chess in India Message-ID: <161227035920.23782.15282444636817398703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you all for your help. I have now more than enough to read. With best wishes, Arash From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 21 05:57:06 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 21:57:06 -0800 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035952.23782.17003021769616359082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadriah Mallampalli: >Indians of south Indian origin do have dark features, but Indians from eastern >states have mongoloid features (a fact conveniently ignored by IE gang), There are verses refering to people as "anAsa"(nAsa,nAsikA =nose)..this was interpreted as refering to "aboriginals"...now, if one were to go to Eastern India, the hill tribes were treated as aboriginals by the more "advanced" races..the word "nAga" for the residents of nAgaland is derived from the samskrt "nAga:"( snake, cobra) by some people and from assamese "nOgA"( nude, naked, a reference to their primitiveness) by others....so there is a minor error in that the translator did not explicitly say "mongoloids" but this interpretation is backed up IF the AIT is true.... I thank S.Palaniappan for the interesting examples that he gave and for the correction inserted regarding puRam 201(I confused this poem with another one translated by Hart where the king becomes a "pulavan2"and sings his own praise, mea culpa). Along the lines of the Kharavela thing (mentioned in Orissa but not in Tamil NAdu), there is another interesting story in Orissa which to the best of my knowledge is not mentioned in Tamil NAdu..In Puri,(site of the JAgannatha temple) there was a king who went to Madurai and fell in love with the local princess, whose name was padmAvatI . padmAvatI's father agreed to the match and sent his minister along with the king of pUri( purushottama) back to pUrI. In the annual ratha yatra of the jagannatha temple,it was/is the custom for the rAja to come sweep the street in front of the "ratha"( the symbolic meaning being that the king was a servant of jagannatha). The minister from madurai saw this, felt offended by the thought of the king being a sweeper and went back to madurai and prevailed upon the king to cancel the wedding, upon which puruSOttama went to madurai, defeated the king and married padmAvatI...this story seems popular in orissa but seems unknown in TN.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 03:45:42 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 22:45:42 -0500 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035944.23782.2632827207055628057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-18 22:37:09 EST, mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << the same also holds true of the king iruGkovEl who claims descent from the yAdavas of dvAraka >> A minor correction. iruGkOvEL does not make the claim himself. It is the poet who praises him as belonging to the glorious lineage. Here is something I had earlier posted on this chieftain. "PuRam 201 describes the poet kapilar calling himself an 'antaNan2' (usually interpreted as brahmin) taking the daughters of pAri after pAri's death to the chieftain iruGkOvEL of erumaiyUr or present Mysore region. Kapilar praises him as belonging to the 49th generation descendant of a king who was born in the sacrificial pit of a northern muni and ruled in Tuvarai (dvArakA) with a fort made with copper. The western portion of peninsular India especially Karnataka and Maharashtra was called "vEL pulam" in Tamil (or the land of the vELs)." Another name of the chieftain iruGkOvEL which occurs in the poem is pulikaTimAal which can be translated as "kRSNa who defeated the tiger". ("mAal" = kRSNa). This story/name must have been popular in the region for a very long time because the origin myth of Hoysala kings who built a capital at dvArasamudra also had a king who defeated a tiger. The Hoysala origin myth is apparently given in an inscription of narasimha hoysaLa deva at bElavAdi in bElUr district as quoted by auvai cu. turaicAmi from Epigraphica Carnatica Vol.I, BI: 171. Note the similarity between Ta. vEL and Ka. bEl- (in the names of the two localities) and also the similarity between the names tuvarai, dvArasamudra and dvArakA. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 04:05:53 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 23:05:53 -0500 Subject: veracity regarding wars (was Re: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035946.23782.4453985396528438952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-18 22:37:09 EST, mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << I find this downright laughable...has any civilization/culture talked/sung about about a war which they've lost? In India, we always talk about the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars because we came out on top, there is far less discussion of the 1962 Indo-China war where we came out second best...Likewise, in the Tamil texts we find mention of incidents (real/imagined) where the Tamils came out on top.. >> People do concede an earlier defeat if they win at a later point in time. At least in inscriptions. The Velvikkudi grant of the neTuJcaTaiyan2 does mention the Pandya country being overrun and ruled by kalabhran. Ofcourse a Pandyan king regains the kingdom. Strangely, Classical Tamil texts do talk about an expedition of Mauryas into Tamilnadu which northern sources do not seem to mention. Kharavela's inscription mentions a Tamil confederacy lasting for a long time and finally being defeated by Kharavela. Tamil texts are silent about Kharavela. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 04:52:38 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 23:52:38 -0500 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227035948.23782.17140458589882702496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can check out the web site: http://www.ascension-research.org/lyj-rev.html for information about a book entitled "Lost Years of Jesus: On the Discoveries of Notovitch, Abhedananda, Roerich, and Caspari" by Elizabeth Clare Prophet regarding the very subject. "Well-written and provocative. The research was not only thorough and accurate but very, very careful." -- ROBERT S. RAVICZ, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, California State University, Northridge "The Autobiography of Jesus of Nazareth and the Missing Years" by Richard G. Patton seems to be another book to look into. Whether Jesus came to India/Tibet or not, a serious scholar D. D. Kosambi, who was no jingoist, says the following about the westward influence of Buddhism in his book "Ancient India". "The religion not only influenced Manichaeanism but must earlier have helped the formation of Christianity. The scholars who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, though good Jews, show peculiarities that appear to be of Buddhist origin. Their practice of living in a monastery almost on top of a necropolis would be repulsive to Judaism, though quite agreeable to Buddhists. The 'Teacher of Righteousness' mentioned in the documents of this (probably Essene) Palestinian foundation bears the precise title of the Buddha. It is not, therefore, surprising that the Sermon on the Mount should sound more familiar to Buddhists than to the followers of the Old Testament who first heard it preached. Some of the Christ's miracles such as walking on the water were current much earlier in literature about the life of the Buddha. For that matter, the Christian saint's legend that goes under the title 'Barlaam and Josaphat' is a direct adaptation of the Buddha's life-story". Kosambi's book was published in 1965. Does anybody know if the research on Dead Sea scrolls since then supports or opposes his conclusions? Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 05:31:12 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 00:31:12 -0500 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035950.23782.16852104018856063895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-19 22:52:16 EST, mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << The most sensible people in this respect seem to be the Malayalis (mind you, I'm not a Malayali:-) who seem to be a little too mature to descend into all this gee-gawing about superiority and what have you...may their tribe increase... >> Unfortunately, the general population of Malayalis is no different from others either. In his book, "Language of Middle Malayalam", Dr. Puthusseri Ramachandran said in 1973, "Until recently traditional research confined itself to ranscaking Sanskrit depositories of learning in an effort to find the roots of our cultural inheritance. We have now to concede that there are many valuable works in Tamil no less important than those in Sanskrit on which our literary historian has to concentrate. The works of writers of Kerala who wrote before the evolution of Malayalam have been abandoned to the dark corners of Tamil erudition. The theory that malayalam branched off from the parent Dravidian language earlier than Tamil and that though not extant there must have been many independent works in Malayalam like folklore, folk songs and proverbs etc., put forward by some literary historians and linguistic investigators misguided the later research workers and prevented them from studying these works." Even though this was written in 1973, many Malayalis still believe that the origin of their language is traceable to Sanskrit. I have also heard many Malayalis who believe that Kerala history begins with parazurAma creating the land that is Kerala. Regards S. Palaniappan From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 20 20:07:51 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 01:37:51 +0530 Subject: Tamil echo formation (Was Re: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v) Message-ID: <161227035921.23782.17409238669967660208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vasu Renganathan wrote: > When the first syllable of a noun is replaced either with ki or kI, > we get the echo counter part. ki is used to replace syllables with > short vowels and kI is used for long vowels. > I guess the same is the case with other Dravidian languages Telugu, > Malayalam, Kannada etc. In Kannada it is gi- / gii-, depending on the prosodic structure of the word that is reduplicated. RZ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 06:47:31 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 01:47:31 -0500 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035954.23782.8630432091357479549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-20 09:45:49 EST, sns at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: << All the original sources refer to only places within the subcontinent and there never was any argument among pandits about some kind of origin from some faraway lands - until the word Arya was bastardized and all kinds of racial connotations were ascribed to passages in the Vedas. >> In Rajaram's book also, I have come across this view that the ethnic connotation of "Arya" was the creation of Western scholars. This is not correct. Even the earliest Classical Tamil texts clearly make a distinction between Aryans and others in an ethnic sense even though they do not show any negative perception of brahmins who live among them and chant vedas. Both vaiSNavite AzvArs and zaivite nAyan2mArs were very conscious of the dual background of their religion. For instance, the zaivite saint appar of 6-7th century AD refers to ziva of tiruvaNNAmalai as one who is an Arya as well as a Tamil as shown by the the following line. "Ariyan2 kaNTAy; tamizan2 kaNTAy; aNNAmalai uRaiyum aNNal kaNTAy" (tEvAram 6.23.5) CilappatikAram has many such references. In this epic when the Cera king goes on an expedition against the northern Aryas he is assisted by many non-Tamil kings including Satakarni! Even dramatic arts were classified into two - AriyakkUttu and tamizkkUttu. The use of Ariyan2 in the sense of a noble person is found much later than the use in an ethnic sense. The different concepts of Arya according to Sanskrit/Prakrit traditions has been dealt with by M. M. Deshpande in his various works. Regards S. Palaniappan From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Feb 21 01:03:47 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 02:03:47 +0100 Subject: Linguistics and Out-of-India model Message-ID: <161227035936.23782.4826187327452720810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One last question. Edwin Bryant wrote: >The Aryan invasion/migration theory is very widely rejected in India >(and I suspect from the tenor of one or two recent comments that some >members of this list have no idea how widespread this rejection is in >mainstream academic, and not just in right-wing or neo-Hindu, circles). Does this include most Indian linguists??? I just can't imagine how one could learn proper modern linguistics if one's linguistic training included "theories" that Sanskrit was identical to PIE or that IA and Dravidian were close genetic relatives. That would be really something on a par with the Marr madness in Soviet linguistics. I do hope the answer is no. From Vaidix at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 10:37:13 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 05:37:13 -0500 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035963.23782.12684797709946548473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello again everyone, The rhetoric: AIT was a clever strategy that served two purposes at the same time: 1. To establish that Sanskrit originated outside Indian subcontinent, an idea that seemed to take away authorship of Vedas and Sanskrit, and 2. To divide the so called Aryans and Dravidians. The emotional trap of this double attack was so powerful that Indian Indologists of the last 100 years had driven themselves to take up the opposite positions (that of no Aryan migration, or reverse migration) which are actually on weaker ground and totally untenable, forced them on the defensive, and worse! it deprived them of the chance to exploit latest scientific developments. It may be surprising for some, but despite my total lack of knowledge of comparative linguistics, I really agree with the idea of outside origination of Sanskrit; for the simple reason: It agrees with geological facts. Just 65 million years ago, at the time when dinosaurs were wiped out from the face of the earth, the Indian continent was floating in the middle of the "Indian" ocean. It may have got detached from the African continent about 225 million years ago! The Indian plate has presumably hit Chinese plate some time around 3-5 million years ago. The Indian plate, after hitting the Chinese plate, has started sliding under the latter, giving birth to Himalayas. In fact the Himalayas are rising even now by a few inches every year. Also, the mass of sea life collected between the continents had so much limestone that Himalayas have really ended up being limestone moutains that are geologically weak. As the Indian plate was in the ocean for more than 225 million years, it did not participate in the human evolution at all! No aboriginal humanoid fossils comparable to those found in Africa are to be found in India. Around 2-3 million years ago human evolution just started happening. The first hominids were found to be 120,000 years old, and humans were known to have used boats to travel from Asia to Australia at about 50,000 years ago. Language must be developed by this time otherwise how can they build boats? While the Himalayas are still very young and the entire mountain belt under the grip of violent earthquakes almost every day, it is less probable any humans would have migrated into the Indian subcontinent. The modern civilization and evolution of grammars may have happened around the time 20,000 years ago, and Vedic civilization may have developed about 10,000 years ago in Central Asia and Iran. With the activity of Himalayas having subsided, the Civilized people may have started crossing the mountains and moved into Indian continent. The first batches may have gone further south to experience the warmth they never felt before (and therefore became dark skinned). It is ridiculous to think they would be lazy enough to settle in the colder Saraswati or Ganga basins. These are the present day Dravidians. As they were the earliest to migrate, their language was very remotely connected to Sanskrit. The later settlers had to remain in the colder Northern India as southern parts have been occupied. And the later settlers were more recent, and their language closer to Sanskrit. The Dravidians are from Asia because, despite their darker skin color, the texture of hair and their facial features are more like Indo Aryans than that of Africans. Further, the migrations into India have been continuous because the last interglacial period was about 120,000 years ago, and there could be no obstruction to their movement. The slow process of migration implies that there had never been any Aryan/Dravidian war of the proportions described by AIT protagonists; and also cultural continuity was maintained between different batches that settled at different places. There were surely local wars/battles which are most common in any society fragmented by different regions; and these battles have been happening till 1700AD. While most of the advanced civilizations had moved over to the newly found warmer subcontinent, many other tribes stayed back (you know what I am driving at! I have every right to be mischievous, no less than the first professor). It took me a little less than two hours to cook up this story from various internet sites on plate tectonics and human anthropology with some of my own imagination! And to top it all, it agrees with the IE comparative linguistics! For more information check the sites http://pubs.usgs.gov/publications/text/dynamic.html or look for plate tectonics or human anthropology, hominids etc. Thanks, Bhadraiah Mallampalli http://members.aol.com/vaidix From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 21 02:08:48 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 07:08:48 +0500 Subject: Tamil echo formation (Was Re: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035942.23782.17773842072681604130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:37 AM 2/21/98 +0530, you wrote: >Vasu Renganathan wrote: > >> When the first syllable of a noun is replaced either with ki or kI, >> we get the echo counter part. ki is used to replace syllables with >> short vowels and kI is used for long vowels. > >> I guess the same is the case with other Dravidian languages Telugu, >> Malayalam, Kannada etc. > >In Kannada it is gi- / gii-, depending on the prosodic structure of the >word that is reduplicated. > >RZ > > In telugu also like kannada it is gi/gI regards, sarma. From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Sat Feb 21 08:06:27 1998 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 08:06:27 +0000 Subject: -vada / -vadin (and Buddhist schools generally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227035961.23782.1158725045448813472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Richard Salomon writes: >Shizutani is indeed the best source for Buddhist schools in >Indian inscriptions, >and is usable even without a knowledge of Japanese; see especially the >index of schools on p.153. But it is not quite up to date, as quite a >number of inscriptions with such references have been published since >1979; for instance, a (previously) rare Mahisasaka inscription published >by G. Fussman in BEFEO 74 (1985), pp. 47-51. In particular, numerous >Kharosthi inscriptions referring to the Dharmaguptakas have been found >recently; see A. Sadakata in JA 284 (1996), pp. 301-24. Several more >Dharmaguptaka inscriptions will be presented in my forthcoming (later >this year if all goes well) book on the British Library Kharosthi scrolls >(at least some of which I believe to be Dharmaguptaka texts). Yes, I remembered some of this from your lecture to UKABS in London last year. Actually, it was partly that which led me to think that a new list was needed. Actually, I wonder what form the name takes in your inscriptions. As you know, it is Dhamma-guttaa in the oldest literary source (Diip V 47). The later accepted form is no doubt influenced by (probably later) stories of the origin of the school from an eponymous founder: Dharma-gupta - no doubt mythical. Lance Cousins, Manchester From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Feb 21 16:00:04 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 10:00:04 -0600 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227035973.23782.11281399586911671903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to me that there are contradictions here in the various postings by linguistic scholars. Dr. R.J. Zydenbos categorically states that there is no similiarity between North Indian and South Indian Languages. Dr. Bh. Krishnamurti states "The other kind, like Subrahmanya in the list, mistake aspects of convergence between languages through contact as genetic phenomena. They have basically no idea of how genetic relationships are established among languages" thereby implying that there are aspects of convergence. Mr.Jacob Baltuch writes: "In fact, by all serious scholars, the presence of Sanskrit words in Mitanni and Hittite documents is *precisely* our most solid basis for declaring that Sanskrit *did* already exist in 1500 BC. " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And there are other experts who say that the language of the vedas cannot even be called as Sanskrit and has to be termed as Vedic. Please explain to me as to who among all these is correct. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From umadevi at SFO.COM Sat Feb 21 18:22:35 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 10:22:35 -0800 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227035987.23782.2606971846599448600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While there may indeed be a tomb of Moses in Kashmir; I have just learned from a Japanese art historian that Moses also has a tomb in Japan. This idea that Jesus taught in Kashmir, or the Mormon idea that Jesus taught in South America, or that Moses ended his days in Japan is an interesting little problem. I have run across seemingly Islamic tombs in Pakistan, dedicated to "Bibi Hariti." These tombs are scenes of popular pilgrimage, and are draped with scarves and are circumabulated, and the surrounding trees are tied with scarves and threads as markers of vows or hopes for blessings. Hariti, the Buddhist goddess of children and pustular fevers was very popular in Gandhara, but presumably has no place in orthodox Islam. Residual beliefs surviving intrusive religious traditions or a new cultural usurpation (not very PC, but for want of a better term?) of a charismatic parallel religious leader seems to have been going on a long time. Perhaps we will finally learn that Elvis has been residing in Swat. Regards, Mary Storm From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sat Feb 21 17:29:06 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 11:29:06 -0600 Subject: tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035984.23782.16603198589482921945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >For many Kannada and Telugu speakers, saying that these languages are >similar to north Indian languages, and that they are allied to Sanskrit, >serves as a way of setting themselves apart from Tamil and Tamil >speakers. Since Sanskrit is popularly thought to be older than any other >language, it also serves as a means of suggesting that Kannada and >Telugu are somehow older than Tamil. >No serious linguistic argument this, but a political one. But then, they >are caught between a rock and a hard place, as the Americans say >nowadays. Most Tamilians revel in their Dravidian "other"-ness, while >most Indians north of Belgaum consider themselves fair-skinned Aryans. >The fact that Tamil politicians have appropriated the word "Dravida" >means that non-Tamil south Indians want to downplay their own >associations with things Dravidian, and to align themselves with things >"Aryan". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- With these powerful socio-political factors at play, academics need to be wary of attempts from few Kannada/Telugu elites to read sanskrit from Indus script. It could be like seeing Sanskrit in Hittite, Tamil, and indeed wherever they want to. I can understand their affection towards Sanskrit, but is their archaeological studies for real?! I don't think it is mere coincidence that the theory of negation of the Aryan-Dravidian divide is most actively written up by N. S. Rajaram, S. R. (Ranganatha) Rao, Srikanth Talageri, all natives of Southern Karnataka. A case of reverse research. Have the conclusion first and work towards the agenda. Regards, N. Ganesan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 21 10:58:25 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 11:58:25 +0100 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035965.23782.8341385892529635998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Sharma, I am sorry this answer comes a bit late, but I hope you don't mind getting an answer nevertheless: >Once more, this is significant, and this time I am quoting from >Websters Dictionary : >Humainities - Those subjects, as philosophy, literature, and the fine >arts, that are concerned with human beings and culture > >Social Science - gen held to include sociology, psychology, >anthropology, economics, political science and history. As it happens, there are several definitions of the "Humanities". I have found another one in another dictionary. The main point is this: AFAIK, at all Western universities the subjects belonging to he Faculties of Arts are collectively referred to as the "humanities". Since history and Indology both belong to the faculties of arts, and not to the faculties of social sciences or natural sciences, they belong to the humanities. >Furthermore, and curiously enough, does biology, management, engg. >etc prepare a person to contribute to 'humanities' as 'math-physics' >does not ? I think think that math could contribute to the humanities, and does so. I used statistics in my thesis, and I know that others are using statistics treating certain linguistic problems. But the scope for math is limited. Not all problems that the humanities deal with are quantifiable and therefore have to be dealt with through other methods. > If Indology is just 'Humanities', history and chronology is not in >its domain and the debate is moot in this forum. This is >operationally not the case. This is a severe contradiction. This is counterfactual. Indologists and historians have dealt with various kinds of chronological problems for many, many years. Therefore, chronology is part of their agenda. > If indeed Indology ligitimately involves historical science (which >it does) then it involves the scientific method as well. This is a >legitimate domain for scientists to comment; the nature of the >evidence , the underlying assumptions and on any empirical data. >Models have to stand up to falsifying data as well. There is no reason why scientists shouldn't comment. But evidence from natural science must be treated like other evidence. If you are dealing with text history and the relative chronology of texts, there is little that science can contribute except the use of statistics in connection with certain kinds of problems. The use of astronomical evidence is far more complicated than many seem to think. > I realize that Indology has been dominated by historical linguists >who have constructed chronologies on this basis, which many deem >absolute (ie onset of Aryan 'invasion' ~1500 BC etc). These have to >be consistent with the new evidence and the old unexamined evidence >to and this procees in incomplete. I don't think linguists deem chronologies absolute. They try to create relative chronologies for various events on the basis of probabilities (here not used in the strict statistical sense). But the debate between linguists do not show a consistent set of ideas supported by all. There is room for disagreement. > I think that AIT is indeed sputtering (aryans 'invaded' India in >1500 BC); Aryan migrations picture needs more construction. I have no >quibble with Aryans migration in/out or neither/both. How does this >ancient major river and the settlements factor in ? There is a >complete silence on this matter and is indicative of the answer >not being known (as yet). The lack of discussion is however >interesting. And models being able to withstand Popperian >falsification are more believeable. There is a problem with Popperian falsification here, which pertains to all kinds of scholarship dealing with the past. We cannot make experiments with the past, we cannot change things in the past. Therefore, we have to base our arguments on interpretation of available data. The interpretation can sometimes be definitely falsified if new data turn up, but very often the data allow for several possible configurations that cannot be definitely falsified or proved. Which is why people in the humanities sometimes tend to walk around in circles. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 21 11:10:25 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 12:10:25 +0100 Subject: Tamil words in English/AIT Message-ID: <161227035967.23782.638321628137776876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Sharma, here is another belated answer: > As for the question about competent to speak on matters Indological >because I am a physicist... you know... the matter of establishing >credibility ... Firstly, in a debate, it is better to respond to the >words/ideas presented and evaluate their merit as opposed to the >degrees and other material tattoos we cart around with us. Secondly, >questioning competence not only sidetracks the debate it ends it, and >I promise never to do that to you or anyone once I choose to >speak/debate with you. In matters of nonsense, silence is more civil. > On matters of 'scenting' the territory of physics being off limits >to non-physicists; Au contraire. The health of any field is dependent >on the independent and concerned scholar. There are alive in academia >and society many minds who have interest in subjects out of their >professions and this helps sustain and grow this area of study. This is perfectly true: There is no reason why a scholar should not take an interest in matters outside his own field of scholarship. However: If you do, you must learn the basics. Otherwise, the debate becomes a colossal waste of time. > This applies to both physics and Indology. If you are capable of >understanding the language of the field, your opinion will be welcome >in professional circles; Nonsense will merit no response. Again, perfectly true. > If you can read the arcane language of math you to can discuss hard- >core physics with professionals. This is pretty much what I was trying to say. You don't necessarily need a degree in math, but you need to know the relevant math. Since history is written in this >case is English and the facts accesible to those who can read, and >more so to those trained as scholars in the liberal arts tradition. >Forgive me if this is absurd, but do you think that it is >incomprehsible for a Norweigen physicist to be able to speak >reasonably knowledgeably about Norweigen history ? Not at all. Provided he had read the relevant literature, he may of course participate in the discussion. The problem with some persons who participate in debates outside their (academic) ken, is that their qualifications do not match the stringency of their voices. They talk nonsense, and not answering nonsense, as you suggest, can be a dangerous policy too. Today's world is full of nonsense: commercial nonsense, religious nonsense, political nonsense. Much of it fairly harmless, but when e.g. a religious leader manages to convince his flock to commit suicide collectively, the nonsense is not harmless any more. Sometimes, it is the moral duty of knowledgable people to speak up, even if it feels like a waste of time. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 21 08:09:50 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 13:09:50 +0500 Subject: Linguistics and Out-of-India model Message-ID: <161227035956.23782.1912998943880656034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jaco Baltuch: You are right; I do not think any genuine Indian linguist buys the theory that Sanskrit originated in India and travelled north and west. The rejection of the Skt descent of Dravidian is over 100 years old, although you occasionally come across pseudo experts/traditional pundits who repeat the abandoned theory, because they are not basicaly linguists. The other kind, like Subrahmanya in the list, mistake aspects of convergence between languages through contact as genetic phenomena. They have basically no idea of how genetic relationships are established among languages. I do not think Edwin Brynt is correct in saying that the main stream academia support the theory that India was the homeland of IE. Regards, Bh.K. At 02:03 21/02/98 +0100, you wrote: >One last question. Edwin Bryant wrote: > >>The Aryan invasion/migration theory is very widely rejected in India >>(and I suspect from the tenor of one or two recent comments that some >>members of this list have no idea how widespread this rejection is in >>mainstream academic, and not just in right-wing or neo-Hindu, circles). > >Does this include most Indian linguists??? > >I just can't imagine how one could learn >proper modern linguistics if one's linguistic >training included "theories" that Sanskrit >was identical to PIE or that IA and Dravidian >were close genetic relatives. That would >be really something on a par with the Marr >madness in Soviet linguistics. I do hope the >answer is no. > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 21 08:10:18 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 13:40:18 +0530 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035958.23782.8941634767916365438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > 2. Mr. Robert J. Zydenbos > YES....there is a similiarity between Northern and Southern > languages > in India. In fact you can just about do a one to one > substitution of words and > can easily translate sentences. To account for this, linguists > have come up > with their own theories - please ask some of the expert > linguists on their > theories as to how they account for this. > naanu odida pustaka - kannada > mayaa paTitaM pustakaM - sanskrit This is plainly outrageous and shameless. You are evidently not yet in a position to touch linguistics, and you should at least first learn some *basic grammar* (both Sanskrit and Dravidian) before having the audacity to criticise linguists. Your teacher apparently did not tell you that 'naanu' is prathamaa vibhakti.h and 'mayaa' is t.rtiiyaa vibhakti.h (and obviously you have not wondered what this means regarding the differences between a Dravidian relative participle and an Indogermanic past passive participle) -- to point out only the most immediately visible blunder in your composite error. > After all, > India gained independence only 50 years ago and time is needed to > discard old euro-centric colonial thinking. This politically ideological thinking (and racism too? ethnically Indian non-linguists know Indian linguistics better than ethnically non-Indian linguists, just because they are ethnically Indian?), bolstered with some fashionable, 'politically correct' buzzwords, cannot brush aside the heaps of empirical linguistic data which you refuse to consider. If you have any genuinely scholarly ambitions, you should know this; so we can safely assume that your intentions in this 'discussion' are not genuinely scholarly. > Well I am tired of the disscussion too... Perhaps you can return to mathematics, about which I hope you are better informed, instead of insulting the intelligence of people on an international academic list who have taken the trouble to seriously learn something about the subjects under discussion. Please note Dr. D. Wujastyk's cautioning remarks, which I have quoted earlier. In view of your proven unwillingness to genuinely learn anything that may upset your ideology (even when a few of the facts are handed to you on this list), I will right away bow out of this thread. ------------------------------------------------ Dr. R.J. Zydenbos, D.Litt. etc. etc. in Indology Mysore (India) ------------------------------------------------ From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sat Feb 21 14:10:23 1998 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 14:10:23 +0000 Subject: periodisation of Skt. Message-ID: <161227035989.23782.2340742120447025776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Medieval Sanskrit, in its syntax, had been deeply influenced by >> Prakrit. So much so, that some genres, like drama dialog, are just >> Prakrits in Sanskrit phonology. Modern Sanskrit, being modelled on >> medieval S., (with some further influences from modern languages), >> continues this. I'm afraid I've missed most of the discussion on the "periodisation of Sanskrit", but I can certainly attest to the fact that one writer who observes the surface forms of classical Skt. morphology can still produce very different sentences than any number of others. I've edited several chapters (c. 1500 verses) from an (est.) 16th century Newar Sanskrit Buddha-biography, the Bhadrakalpaavadaana. Although the narrative is based more or less on the third vol. of the Mahaavastu, the author of this voluminous (c. 10,000 verses) text adheres pretty closely to standard Skt. morphology. On the other hand, the language betrays both the influence of the type of Prakrit syntax familiar to readers of Paali and Buddhist Sanskrit literature and, in addition, other features which seem traceable to the fact that the author's vernacular was Newaarii, a Tibeto-Burman language. While I have not yet published any of this material, interested parties can find valuable observations on the influence of Newaarii on Sanskrit in Bernhard K?lver's "Newaarrii into Sanskrit: On the Language of the Svayambh?-pura.na", forthcoming in the _Manfred Taube Festschrfit_. Regards, Joel Tatelman. Dr. Joel Tatelman, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. Fax: (608) 265-3538 From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Sat Feb 21 13:49:38 1998 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 14:49:38 +0100 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036003.23782.6359729805106704461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > Apologies for this, but: > > A friend has sent me the following question: > > A book called The Lost Years of Jesus is going to be published in > Japanese translation and the translator wants to know what was the > reaction of Indologists in the West to the theory that Jesus was in > India and Tibet during those 17 years. > > Any references to debunking of this nonsense? Many thanks in advance! The "classic" for this form of the "Jesus-was-in-India"-theory is Nicolas Notovitch's book: La vie inconnue de Jesus-Christ. Paris 1894. At that time this book aroused a great upstir in Europe, it was very often reprinted and was translated in other European languages as well. During a travel through Ladakh, Notovitch allegedly found an old Tibetan book in the monastery of Hemis which was translated from a Pali (!) original. A short time after the publication Max Mueller wrote an article where all this is clearly unmasked as a forgery. You'll find a critical assessment in a book of Guenter Groenbold who is an indologist and tibetologist (and known as a serious scholar): Groenbold, Guenter: Jesus in Indien : Das Ende einer Legende. -- Muenchen : Koesel, 1985. -- 152 pp. Groenbold took pains to unravel the different threads of this theory which are often mixed together. For example, Notovitch deals only with Jesus' "lost years", he did obviously not know the story that Jesus survived the crucification and died later in Kashmir. This form of the Jesus legend appeared first with Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement. If one has sense of humour the reading of this sort of literature is great fun, otherwise it is merely annoying. \bye Peter Wyzlic From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Sat Feb 21 06:05:44 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 15:05:44 +0900 Subject: more on aatma-/asatkhyaati Message-ID: <161227035998.23782.12668511448012650074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Dunne wrote: > Well, since I don't really have time to be writing this message, I've been waiting for >someone else to state what is perhaps already obvious: the terms *aatmakhyaati* and >*asatkhyaati* are not "Buddhist" terms, in the sense that they were neither coined nor >favored by Buddhist authors. Dharmakiirti, for example, does not use them at all, and >to my knowledge, they are not employed by the two earliest commentators on >Dharmakiirti, namely, Devendrabuddhi and Zaakyabuddhi. This coincides with what can be gathered from Schmithausen's Vibhramaviveka-study (which is really a *must*! It covers a much wider range of epistemological issues than the title suggests). Schmithausen is very cautious in his phrasing of chronology, but suggests a date of ca. 700 C.E. for Man.d.ana, and implies, in several places, that Man.d.ana was active after Dharmakiirti. Take this together with Schmithausen's suggestion that Man.d.ana might have "coined" ("praegte") the *-khyaati*-terminology. Man.d.ana uses the terms *aatmakhyaati* (Yogaacaara), *asatkhyaati* (where we have two versions, one of Madhyamaka, one of old Vedaanta, whose later theory is often termed *anirvacaniiyakhyaati*), *akhyaati* (Prabhaakara), and *anyathaa khyaatih.* (also *vipariitaa khyaatih.*) (Kumaarila, Man.d.ana himself, the Naiyaayikas). (Warning: simplified presentation on my part). So, the absence of *khyaati*-terms in Dharmakiirti's texts should, chronologically speaking, not come as a surprise (IF Schmithausen is correct). An additional *khyaati*-term refers to the "odd" (Schmithausen's terminology, "merkwuerdig", p.268) theory of *alaukikakhyaati* of some Miimaam.sakas, which probably developed around the middle of 8th c. I think the earliest post-Man.d.ana-"khyaati-ist" Schmithausen mentions is Umbeka; Jayanta also uses the terminology. >The question of perceptual illusion is particularly important in "pramaa.navaada" >discourse; hence, the fact that Dharmakiirti and his early commentators shun these >terms may suggest either that they were unaware of them, or that they perceived the >terms as a strategem to draw them into a debate that they could not win. This passage, taken together with the following John wrote further below - > I assume that Schmithausen is referring to Ma.n.danamizra's version of Yogaacaara > and Sautraantika. Since Dharmakiirti, at least, does not use these terms, it seems > highly problematic to apply them to his philosophy. - prompts me, in turn, to point out the obvious: occurrence or non-occurrence of certain terms is not a sufficient condition for the acceptance or rejection of concepts which can be associated with these terms. Whether Dharmakiirti and his commentators *use* any of the "khyaati"-expressions is one issue; whether it is justifiable or useful to apply these terms when describing their theories is another. Sure enough, widespread usage of *khyaati*-terms might indicate that a particular model of analyzing philosophical theories had gained wide acceptance (investigating the reasons for that is another avenue), but that doesn't tell you anything about whether these labels do justice to the philosophical theories they are attached to. And while no term is coined without there being an at least somehow demarcated concept it could be coined for, the absence of a technical term in the literature is not enough to conclude that no such concept exists. (To put it in other words, reasoning along these lines would be a faulty *kaaryaanupalabdhihetu*). Deciding whether, and how exactly, Dharmakiirti could be called an *aatmakhyaativaadin*, requires taking a closer look at how these labels are used by different authors, how the theories of error labeled (or not labeled) in these ways are connected to larger issues, how the use of certain arguments is connected with basic doctrinal motivations ... but applying terms which do not occur in certain texts to describe concepts advocated therein is not per se problematic. I am curious about what makes you think that Devendrabuddhi et al. may have perceived the *khyaati*-terms as "a strategem to draw them into a debate that they could not win". Are you thinking of the argument that an acceptance of a Niraakaaraj~naanavaada-type theory entails the acceptance of the (unwanted) doctrine of *asatkhyaati*? As far as the issue Madhyamaka and *asatkhyaati* is concerned - Schmithausen voices the opinion that Man.d.ana's representation of Madhyamaka arguments have an ontologizing tendency which runs against at least Naagaarjuna's intentions. However, Schmithausen does not invoke the two-truth-framework in this context - what he considers problematic is the high emphasis placed on an "absolute non-existence" in the Maadhyamika position as it is presented by Man.d.ana. > For me, the best way to understand Buddhist theories of error is focus on the simple > and ubiquitous formulation: *atasmi.ms tadj~naana*. > But perhaps that is too easy an answer. Well, the other day, I discovered that the best way to understand Dharmakiirti's theory of negation was to focus on the simple fact that Dharmakiirti was a featherless biped. No feathered triped could have advanced such views. Seriously, "atasmi.s tad iti pratyayah." (or "j~naanam.") is over-abundant in Nyaaya-Vai'ses.ika literature (Nyaayabhaas.ya, Nyaayavaarttika, Padaarthadharmasa.ngraha, Candraananda's Vai'ses.ikasuutravr.tti, etc.). There's nothing specifically Buddhist about it; it's not too easy an answer, it's simply a non-starter. John makes two further remarks which arouse my curiosity (I don't know whether he really wants to get into these discussions, though):: > ... I am still unconvinced that > Dharmakiirti responds to the *Zlokavaartika* in his *Svav.rtti*. Do you intend that as a general statement, or with specific focus on theories of error? In the former case, I'm curious on what prompts your scepticism. >Needless to say, *aalayavij~naana* and *vaasanaa* play an important >role in Dharmakiirti's theory. This makes me really curious. I must confess that I have not yet considered the issue of Dharmakiirti and the *aalayavij~naana*, but I was just reminded that a couple of months ago, I was taught that Dharmakiirti does not accept an *aalayavij~naana* ... BTW, another article which covers theories of error is Eli Franco's "Studies in the Tattvopaplavasimha, II. The Theory of Error", Journal of Indian Philosophy 12/1984, 105-137. Franco modifies certain claims made by Schmithausen in connection with Nyaaya-theories and Kumaarila. -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Feb 21 21:11:40 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 15:11:40 -0600 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227035996.23782.6576344969937352255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am very sorry - I apologize for my mistake. I did not notice that the email was specifically addressed to me, and automatically assumed that an indology related email was from the Indology listserver. Once again - I am sorry. Subrahmanya Houston, TX > >It looks like Subrahmanya besides having some peculiar >ideas about linguistics also has his very own notion of >netiquette: my statement he quoted was from a personal >email where I was trying to show him rationally (I guess >I should've known better) why an excerpt from Rajaram's >book contained another probable piece of disinformation. > > From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Sat Feb 21 06:13:48 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 15:13:48 +0900 Subject: more on vada / vadin Message-ID: <161227036001.23782.9708097270598806450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two additional remarks on the vaada/vaadin-issue - (1) I suppose Sasaki has taken note of the relevant section (or one of the relevant sections) in the Mahaavyutpatti, where, judging from the viewpoint of Tibetan and Chinese translations, an "anything-goes"-style approach seems to have been taken. MVy 9077 aaryasarvaastivaadaah. (plural!) has the Tibetan equivalent 'phags pa thams cad yod par smra ba (In the BHS-dictionnary, Edgerton uses this as evidence for the lemma "sarvaastivada, m.pl.(!), 'n. of school'"). The plural in MVy 9078 muulasarvaastivaadaah., on the other hand, is translated with Tib. _gzhi thams cad yod par smra ba'i sde_ (=school!). In each of these cases, the Chinese has TWO equivalents each, one as "school" and one as "person". Several other entries of this section have Tibetan translations of _smra ba'i sde_ for _-vaadinah._ (the Chinese alternates between "school" and "person); and _sde_ is also affixed to other plural expressions for persons, e.g. Abhayagirivaasinah., Jetavaniiyaah., Mahaavihaaravaasinah., etc. See also S'iks.asamuccaya 148.13 _-vaadaanaam_ (ed. Bibliotheca Buddhica), where Bendall suggests reading _-vaadinaam._, and gives the Tibetan as _'phags pa thams cad yod par smra ba rnams kyi_ ... Anyway, maybe it would be possible to learn more about Sasaki's conclusions? (or should we wait for the publication, in which case - when, and where will the paper appear?) (2) On Frauwallner and secondary literature. The following is not immediately relevant to the issue whether or not "-vaada" can, grammatically, be used for a person (I believe this question is settled in the affirmative by now), but rather to the possibility of Frauwallner (or other scholars) having used "-vaada" as an adjective, and "-vaadin" as the name of the sect. J. Silk wrote: > Finally, although of course this is much less relevant than > consideration of the original texts, Kellner has written about Frauwallner, > but it seems to me his usage is at best ambiguous. See "Studies in > Abhidharma Literature and the Origins of Buddhist Philosophical Systems" > (SUNY 1995) I should have been more careful when I wrote my last remark. For the ambiguity, which J. Silk claims, applies NOT to Frauwallner's writing, but to the English translation, which (1) gives Sanskrit terms in their stem-form, and not in the nominative, (this was a decision made by Steinkellner, see the introduction, p.xii) and (2), as I already mentioned before, does not give any indication of plural (plural "the" is still "the"; no affixed -s). It is the combination of these two criteria which creates the seeming ambiguities, plus (3) the use of one and the same word both as a noun and adjective in English (e.g. "Buddhist"). This is not usually done in German. Even more, I believe it *cannot* be done, for specific morphological operations are required to either form nouns out of adjectives or vice versa (e.g. the noun "der Buddhist" vs. the adjective "buddhistisch"). Looking at the German originals of Frauwallner's "Abhidharma-Studien", the matter is very clear, because (1) Sanskrit terms are given in the nominative form, (2) number and case are clearly indicated with the definite article, and (3) nouns and adjectives are morphologically differentiated by the presence or absence of certain suffixes. See e.g. "Abhidharma-Studien" IV, WZKS 16, p.138: "im Abhidharma der Paali-Schule und der Sarvaastivaadii" etc. (where the genitive plural article "der" with "Sarvaastivaadii" makes it clear that the persons are meant). With "school", Frauwallner ALWAYS uses "... of the Sarvastivadins" (... "der Sarvaastivaadii"); with other nouns, he also uses "... of the Sarvastivada" (... "des Sarvaastivaadah."). With "system", he uses both. I could not find any adjectival use of either form, and, given what I've said before about the morphological distinction between German nouns and adjectives, it would indeed be surprising if such uses existed. In the Abhidharma-Studien, attribution of ideas, concepts or whatever else are expressed either as "suchandsuch of the Sarvaastivaadah./-ins" or (less often) as "the Sarvaastivaada-suchandsuch", which is a quasi-Genitive-tatpurus.a. (just like Muulasarvaastivaada-vinayah.). To make this clear, Frauwallner was either not aware of usages of "-vaadaah." as a plural for the followers, or did not consider such uses relevant enough to account for them in his choice of terminology, and there is no adjectival use of either "-vaada/-vaadin". The same also appears to hold for Bareau (at least in "sects bouddhiques du petit vehicule"). Sorry for the lengthy digression, -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 21 14:43:56 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 15:43:56 +0100 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035969.23782.3023389348021757545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:37 21.02.98 EST, you wrote: >Hello again everyone, > >The rhetoric: AIT was a clever strategy that served two purposes at the same >time: 1. To establish that Sanskrit originated outside Indian subcontinent, an >idea that seemed to take away authorship of Vedas and Sanskrit, and 2. To >divide the so called Aryans and Dravidians. There is no attempt to take away the authorship of the Vedas and Sanskrit! All Western Indologists recognize the Vedic literature as a specifically Indian creation. What they say, however, is that themes and ideas that we find in the Vedic literature sometimes are older than the Vedas, and are shared by other IE peoples. This, of course, may be felt to be provocative by some Indians who are used to regard the Vedas not as a "historical" product, but as a phenomenon originating beyond space and time. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 21 14:43:59 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 15:43:59 +0100 Subject: A question! Message-ID: <161227035971.23782.17277600022405119551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I bother the list with a totally non-Indological question? I need to know what the acronym IELTS stands for. It is apparently an English language test. THIS QUESTION IS TOTALLY UNRELATED TO THE AIT PROBLEM! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 21 16:10:25 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 17:10:25 +0100 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227035974.23782.7689198719630978236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:00 21.02.98 -0600, you wrote: >It seems to me that there are contradictions here in the various > postings by linguistic scholars. ...... >And there are other experts who say that the language of the >vedas cannot even be called as Sanskrit and has to be termed as >Vedic. This is partly a simple question of terminology. Vedic Sanskrit is Sanskrit in the same way that Homeric Greek is Greek. The point is that Vedic differs from classical Skt. in a number of ways, both in terms of grammar and vocabulary. But the difference is not so big that we could say that Vedic is a different language altogether! As far as I can see, the difference between Vedic and Classical Skt. is less than the difference between - say - avadhi or braj on the one hand and khari boli on the other. It is practical to have a term for Vedic Skt. Then we know what we are referring to: the language of the four Vedas, the Brahmanas and the classical Upanishads. >Please explain to me as to who among all these is correct. They are all correct! There is no contradiction. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sat Feb 21 21:13:23 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 18:13:23 -0300 Subject: A question! Message-ID: <161227035990.23782.15082617896489704936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> International English Language Testing System JC >May I bother the list with a totally non-Indological question? > >I need to know what the acronym IELTS stands for. It is apparently an >English language test. > >THIS QUESTION IS TOTALLY UNRELATED TO THE AIT PROBLEM! > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Feb 21 17:25:46 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 18:25:46 +0100 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227035982.23782.2546612284968797149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It looks like Subrahmanya besides having some peculiar ideas about linguistics also has his very own notion of netiquette: my statement he quoted was from a personal email where I was trying to show him rationally (I guess I should've known better) why an excerpt from Rajaram's book contained another probable piece of disinformation. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 21 18:24:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 19:24:50 +0100 Subject: periodisation of Skt. (was: Re: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035985.23782.3815119910590953968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Medieval Sanskrit, in its syntax, had been deeply influenced by >> Prakrit. So much so, that some genres, like drama dialog, are just >> Prakrits in Sanskrit phonology. Modern Sanskrit, being modelled on >> medieval S., (with some further influences from modern languages), >> continues this. > >This is in fact a very interesting and important topic, which too >few people have looked into. If more Sanskritists would try to >describe how and where Sanskrit was modified in the course of time, >a variety of colleagues would benefit from it: historians, students >of literature, etc. etc. This is of course not easy, but such >research has already been done for, e.g., later Latin, and it >should be possible for Sanskrit too. One thing that is interesting here, is that the quality of the Sanskrit depends partly upon the scholarship of the person writing it, but possibly also on the target group. When I did statistics on stylistic development of Skt. in my thesis, I discovered to my absolute astonishment that Somadeva (he of Kathasaritsagara) was practically undistinguishable from Epic Sanskrit (regarding, of course, the phenomena I was measuring). Otherwise, there is a clear tendency in "popular Sanskrit" (if I may coin the term) to use syntactic devices we find in Prakrits and NIA languages. E.g. the use of the passive with instrumental agent in the preterite, which eventually is turned into the ergative construction of such languages as Hindi. My own study only scratches the surface. There is, I think, much more to be found. Go for it! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 21 20:20:27 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 21:20:27 +0100 Subject: A question! Message-ID: <161227035993.23782.10532923261357135278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:13 21.02.98 -0300, you wrote: >International English Language Testing System > Thanx! LMF Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 21 16:55:14 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 22:25:14 +0530 Subject: Linguistics In-Reply-To: <199822195628741@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227035976.23782.5612680418895132484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > Dr. R.J. Zydenbos categorically states that there is > no similiarity between North Indian and South Indian Languages. No, I don't think so. Please see whether you can quote me. "Similarity" is not the same as "belonging to the same language family". This is what Bh. Krishnamurti also stated. RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 21 16:56:59 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 22:26:59 +0530 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227035978.23782.14569180285162645250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, one last comeback... the temptation is just too great. In response to S Krishna, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote on Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:39:28 -0600 (Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980220233928.0092bb08 at ix.netcom.com>): > Please point out where I said that all languages are descended from > Sanskrit ? Ask whoever asserted that all languages descended from > sanskrit to give you the references. And on Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:23:36 -0600 (Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980218002336.00fcf260 at ix.netcom.com>) Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > I (and many other Indians) personally find that Kannada and Telugu > so similiar to > other north-Indian languages that I refuse to believe that they > belong to different language families until some concrete evidence > that can be independently verified is offered. Indeed, in that passage you did not use the words "descended from "Sanskrit"... you only said that you refuse to accept that they belong to different language families. So perhaps you presume that Sanskrit and the Dravidian languages belonged to one language family in some distant past about which, most unfortunately, no empirical data are available? But indeed we should keep our eyes open for alternative interpretations which were not yet current some 20 years ago. India and Pakistan are playing cricket again, and the other day Afridi hit a lot of 4's in one over, which was quite impressive. This of course brings up many questions, like: was Urdu the language of the Indus Valley civilisation? After all, it is spoken in that area right now, and it has words and therefore shows a striking resemblance to, e.g., Turkish and Korean, which are spoken in Asia (i.e., not so far away: the extended Harappan area), and archaeologists tell us that all the people who spoke these languages used pots. What we have not yet considered in this discussion is that in the light of Adam and Eve being the progenitors of the entire human race, which in a different way is also expressed as 'sarva.m khalu ida.m brahma', Gujarati and Malayalam must be related, with Quechua too, as we already know from the archaeological data on Hindus having ruled the Americas, which all real scholars have heard about. I have also heard that flat objects, presumably ancient stone cricket bats, have also been found in Mohenjo Daro. This strengthens the HUH (Harappan Urdu Hypothesis). Yes, as you see: alternative interpretations of many things *are* possible - Q.E.D. (And if anyone dares argue against this, (s)he runs the risk of being branded Eurocentric with colonial ideas -- so watch out!) Have a nice day, everyone. RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 21 16:58:25 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 22:28:25 +0530 Subject: periodisation of Skt. (was: Re: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227035980.23782.3638624433267006907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > [Since nobody would bite my post about periodization of Sanskrit, I > will try to steer this that way :-)] > There is Sanskrit, and then there is Sanskrit. > Medieval Sanskrit, in its syntax, had been deeply influenced by > Prakrit. So much so, that some genres, like drama dialog, are just > Prakrits in Sanskrit phonology. Modern Sanskrit, being modelled on > medieval S., (with some further influences from modern languages), > continues this. This is in fact a very interesting and important topic, which too few people have looked into. If more Sanskritists would try to describe how and where Sanskrit was modified in the course of time, a variety of colleagues would benefit from it: historians, students of literature, etc. etc. This is of course not easy, but such research has already been done for, e.g., later Latin, and it should be possible for Sanskrit too. RZ From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 22 06:55:19 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 22:55:19 -0800 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227036005.23782.8141964984567646520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:54:08 -0800 >Reply-To: Indology >From: Mary Storm >Subject: Re: The Lost Years of Jesus >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >This is just too wierd and wonderful to pass up. >I understand that there is apparently a cult in Kashmir dedicated to the >propagation of this belief. It's sort of like the Mormon idea that Jesus >spent time in South America after the Resurrection. >I think Moses was also supposed to have spent some time in Kashmir as >well? Anybody know anything about that? There is even a tomb of Moses' >somewhere ? >Mary Storm > Dear Ms. Storm, Many years ago, some Muslim students in Jammu gave me a book to read, called "Jesus in Heaven on Earth". Unfortunately I don't have the exact reference. It is a common belief among the mmuslims of pakistan and afganistan ( and also among the Ahmadies living in Israel) that: 1. All Patans and other tribes, are the descendants of the 10 lost tribes of Israel. 2. jesus, after his resurrection, spent the rest of his life in Kashmir and the rest of the Northern region. 3. moses, who is called Kaka, also visited kashmir, and they have a stone there, called "The Kaka Stone", which they believe has some cnnection to Moses. How scientific this is, remains to everyone's judjment. Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 Email: amnev at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Vaidix at AOL.COM Sun Feb 22 12:04:37 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 07:04:37 -0500 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036010.23782.9531589640144525936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr fosse >> Dr Sharma wrote. > >Furthermore, and curiously enough, does biology, management, engg. > >etc prepare a person to contribute to 'humanities' as 'math-physics' > >does not ? > You wrote. > I think think that math could contribute to the humanities, and does so. I > used statistics in my thesis, and I know that others are using statistics > treating certain linguistic problems. But the scope for math is limited. Not > all problems that the humanities deal with are quantifiable and therefore > have to be dealt with through other methods. Othrs also raised questions on Sanskrit vs Vedic Sanskrit. The fact is, whoever recorded the Vedas did not bother to name the language. The word is "Sanskrit" clearly belongs to a later period. The subject was called Veda for obvious reasons: Veda was supposed to be a repository of knowledge known at that time. This includes proven knowledge as well as beliefs (that might one day become knowledge or otherwise) or superstitions or other folk stories (including those of the IE tribes or Japanese). The reason for inclusion of the "unproven ideas" or other "folklore" in Veda (despite the danger of Vedic knowledge being branded as substandard) is that an opinion once lost is historically lost forever. In http://members.aol.com/Vaidix/vpp1.htm I wrote.. The confidence of the Vedic Rsis is that they can approach the highest reality from any(literally any) subject. They held the opinion that if the highest reality can not be arrived at by following a lead from any subject, then that subject falls under a different ruler other than Existence (which is an impossibility)! Taking up that idea as a challenge, the Vedic Rsis approached the subject with the confidence that all subjects converge into Existence, and again originate from it. That leads to a funny situation somewhat similar to that popular science illustration (I don't remember who narrated it first) in which a person living in a three dimentional world appears to possess supernatural power (by appearing and disappearing) to a person living in a two dimensional world. Likewise a person living close to Existence can mix and match subjects at will, at times trying to derive grammar from sociology or trying to prove a point on human anatomy using ritualistic prayers and so on. (Sounds like the effect somA drinking had on indrA?) What better example can be given regarding this, than the following passage from aitareya brAhmaNA! "The Silent Praise is the eye of the yajJa. The exclamation being one is said twice; therefore the eye being one is (manifested) twice." My opinion is, there is no limit to use of any subject while trying to explain any other subject. The division among subjects is artificial and is limited by our own minds. I am not suggesting people should start mixing up subjects at will without any logical basis, in fact there have been such attempts to claim far reaching conclusions by "somehow" relating unrelated subjects. I think it is only to be limited by professional ethics; otherwise there is no limit. Regards. Bhadraiah Mallampalli From umadevi at SFO.COM Sun Feb 22 19:39:50 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 11:39:50 -0800 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227036020.23782.12122437837152379601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amos Nevo wrote: > Dear Ms. Storm, > Many years ago, some Muslim students in Jammu gave me a book to read, > called "Jesus in Heaven on Earth". Unfortunately I don't have the exact > reference. > It is a common belief among the mmuslims of pakistan and afganistan ( > and also among the Ahmadies living in Israel) that: > 1. All Patans and other tribes, are the descendants of the 10 lost > tribes of Israel. > 2. jesus, after his resurrection, spent the rest of his life in Kashmir > and the rest of the Northern region. > 3. moses, who is called Kaka, also visited kashmir, and they have a > stone there, called "The Kaka Stone", which they believe has some > cnnection to Moses. > How scientific this is, remains to everyone's judjment. > > Amos Nevo > 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem > 96746 > ISRAEL > fAX. 972 2 6419215 > Email: amnev at hotmail.com Mr Nevo, Many thanks for such interesting info. There are an awful lot of people in the world claiming descent from the lost tribe! This theory is in conflict with the Mormon mythology which also claims a lost tribe descent, as well as a belief that Jesus was teaching in South America after the Resurrection. But maybe Jesus spent the post-Resurrection years in a kind of bi-continental commute. "The Kaka Stone" sounds like some kind of relic? This is sort of reminiscent of medieval saints who had bits and pieces of themselves all over the Christian world. There were probably enough pieces of the "True Cross" to build a museum to house all the shrouds, swaddling clothes and bits of Jesus' Crown of Thorns which pinpointed the pilgrimage routes. Scientific proof is irrelevant and unnecessary, and even threatening, when one is operating on faith. Best Regards, Mary From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Feb 22 11:11:22 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 12:11:22 +0100 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227036007.23782.328824075826347433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Any references to debunking of this nonsense? Many thanks in advance! > >The "classic" for this form of the "Jesus-was-in-India"-theory is >Nicolas Notovitch's book: La vie inconnue de Jesus-Christ. Paris >1894. At that time this book aroused a great upstir in Europe, >it was very often reprinted and was translated in other European >languages as well. During a travel through Ladakh, Notovitch >allegedly found an old Tibetan book in the monastery of Hemis >which was translated from a Pali (!) original. A short time after >the publication Max Mueller wrote an article where all this is >clearly unmasked as a forgery. > >You'll find a critical assessment in a book of Guenter Groenbold >who is an indologist and tibetologist (and known as a serious >scholar): > Groenbold, Guenter: > Jesus in Indien : Das Ende einer Legende. -- Muenchen : > Koesel, 1985. -- 152 pp. > The following book may be of interest here: Roman Heiligenthal, "Der verf?lschte Jesus. Ein Kritik moderner Jesusbilder", Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1977. It adresses such questions as : Did Jesus live in India? Did he survive the crucifixion? Was he the first feminist? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Sun Feb 22 10:31:23 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 12:31:23 +0200 Subject: Echo words in Hindi-Urdu Message-ID: <161227036009.23782.16579762055039766166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Grateful thanks to all who responded to this query with references and examples! With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sun Feb 22 15:44:33 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 12:44:33 -0300 Subject: the Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227036017.23782.4795115788132100524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear colleagues, > does anybody know more or less definitely what was the Roerichs' >role in spreading "Jesus in India" fairy-tale? ( Tchto Vy ! konietchna nielizia eto znats ). How would that be possible to "know more or less definitely "... N. Roerich, an extraordinary man, was a mystical painter deeply attracted to India and Tibet from both political and "spiritual " reasons. I don't think he did perform _a role_ in spreading that unfundamented assumption of Jesus' "passage to India". On the other hand, assuming that Christ was a Jew and that his teaching was radically different from the tradition he came from, except for the monotheism, it's not impossible that part of his teaching could have been drawn from Hinduism, whose sages seem to had been around the Mediterranean areas since at least Alexander's time. He may have done a trip to India... I have only some vague >information that Nikolas Roerich (the father) visited Hemis and "confirmed >the authencity" of the "Notovich manuscript". Hmmmmmmmmmm! How could he do it we may only >guess because, as far as I can judge on the basis on his writings, he did >not know Tibetan or any Indian languages. N. Roerich did know Tibetan, not to the extend as his son did, of course, for he was not an schollar in stricto sensu. But he knew for sure much more about the soul of that region than you and me. I do hope that his son >George (Yuri) Roerich, who was a serious and really high-class scholar, >had nothing in common with it. But I would like to have this suggestion >verified. You do hope ? > The answer probably is to be found in Groenbold's book, but it may >prove to be very difficult to consult it while staying in Russia. > Thanks in advance > Yaroslav V.Vassilkov > St.Petersburg > Oh don't worry. If I find one copy here I send it to you. Jesualdo Correia From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Feb 22 18:50:26 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 13:50:26 -0500 Subject: Out-of-India model: last comments In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980221130049.2bc737bc@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227036018.23782.7346324209497509498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Last comments. On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: > I do not think > Edwin Bryant is correct in saying that the main stream academia support > the theory that India was the homeland of IE. Regards, Bh.K. That's not quite what I said. A considerable majority of scholars I interviewed simply felt that there is no evidence for the Indo-Aryans intruding into the subcontinent. Few actually then proceed to argue that they went out (although, as we all know, some scholars, usually the more motivated, do). Obviously, if the languages didn't come in then they must have gone out. But the more sober scholars simply feel that the evidence is insufficient to determine anything conclusively. There are certainly scholars still supporting the I-A migration hypothesis, but I found them to be in the minority. Most at least felt the need for reconsideration and reexamination of the evidence. My research was based on umpteen hours of recorded interviews in around 25 University campuses across the subcontinent (and most of the Arch and other surveys of India). If you have any additional substantive data you can share, please contact me privately: I will eagerly include it. > Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >One last question. Edwin Bryant wrote: > > > >I just can't imagine how one could learn > >proper modern linguistics if one's linguistic > >training included "theories" that Sanskrit > >was identical to PIE or that IA and Dravidian > >were close genetic relatives. That would > >be really something on a par with the Marr > >madness in Soviet linguistics. I do hope the > >answer is no. One last answer: The more sober members of the so-called Indigenous Aryan school do not argue either that Sanskrit is equal to PIE, or that Dravidian is from the I-A language family (although obviously some have done so). The relationship of Sanskrit to PIE need have no bearing on the geographical location of the so-called homeland (ie, I-A could have evolved from PIE in a variety of different places). I should note that most of the scholars in the Indigenous Aryan school are archaeologists, historians and philologers. When I was last in India (94-95) I could only find three departments where serious courses in IE linguistics were being offered: Calcutta, Varanasi and Poona (Annamalai had closed its department, and, as I recall, the Poona IE post had been vacant for a year, at the time). The odd course is offered here and there (ie in Delhi U.), but historical IE linguistics is not seen as a priority for scarce university resources. Accordingly, most Indigenous-Aryanists reveal a blatant lack of awareness (and interest) in the IE linguistic evidence. This is an obvious Achilles heel, since the whole I-A migration hypothesis was originally predicated on the linguistic evidence and can only be dismantled by addressing this evidence. There have been some attempts to address the linguistic evidence, however, of varying worth. That's really all I have time for due to teaching overload. And I have experience that these discussions tend to go on for ever and pretty soon people start becoming emotional and offensive and the scholarly value of the discussion evaporates. Regards, Edwin Bryant From John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Sun Feb 22 12:59:18 1998 From: John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (John Dunne) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 13:59:18 +0100 Subject: again on Khyaati, aalaya in Dharmakiirti, etc. In-Reply-To: <34EE6EB8.95C53A9F@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227036014.23782.16466996682332866932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit noted: > Schmithausen...suggests a date of >ca. 700 C.E. for Man.d.ana, and implies...that >Man.d.ana was active after Dharmakiirti. Take this together with >Schmithausen's suggestion that Man.d.ana might have "coined" ("praegte") >the *-khyaati*-terminology. This is what I suspected, actually. Thanks for supplying the info, Birgit. I still wonder about the relative chronology of Zaakyabuddhi and Ma.n.dana. Perhaps it will become obvious at some point. In my message, I had noted that the absence of the term in Dharmakiirti, Devendrabuddhi and Zaakyabuddhi may suggest two possibilities: that they were unaware of the terms, or that they deliberately avoided them. If we accept that Ma.n.dana was active after all three of these Buddhists, then the first possibility explains the situation rather nicely. However, if Zaakyabuddhi was aware of Ma.n.dana's work, or if the terms continue to be absent in later Buddhist pramaa.anavaadins, then we may need to ask other questions. Birgit went on to say: > occurrence or >non-occurrence of certain terms is not a sufficient condition for the >acceptance or rejection of concepts which can be associated with these >terms. Whether Dharmakiirti and his commentators *use* any of the >"khyaati"-expressions is one issue; whether it is justifiable or useful >to apply these terms when describing their theories is another. Yup. My point, however, is that an absence of these terms in later Buddhist works would probably not a matter of sheer spite. Indeed, these kinds of lacunae are exactly the type of clue that can lead to useful results. In other words, that absence in earlier works may add support to a relative chronology of authors. But in a more interesting fashion, an absence in later works may suggest some problem that later Buddhists had with that particular formulation. >... widespread usage of *khyaati*-terms might indicate that >particular ... theories had gained wide >acceptance..., but that doesn't tell you anything about whether these labels >do justice to the philosophical theories they are attached to. And ...the >absence of a technical term in the literature >is not enough to conclude that no ... concept [for it] exists. Ah, but it is one thing for a concept to be interpretively applicable to a text, it is quite another for that text's author to be aware of (or accept) that concept. A common example is the problem of the so-called *praasa.mgika* and *svaatantrika* madhyamaka. The Tibetans (such as Tsongkha pa in his *lhag mthong chen mo*) explicitly admit that they invented these terms; they acknowledge that this distinction was not made in India. Nevertheless, we might choose to use these concepts to interpret the works of Candrakiirti, Bhaavaviveka, or even Naagaarjuna, but when we do so, what kind of intepretation are we seeking? Clearly, this mode of intepretation could easily be called perennialist, and it might well be accused of blithely creating anachronisms. Now, I do not mean that it is entirely invalid to apply anachronistic or author-alien concepts in an attempt to understand a text. I just mean that the type of understanding derived thereby differs in significant ways from a hermeneutic that avoids anachronistic and author-alien concepts. And certainly, from an historical point of view, the latter approach is preferable. > ...applying terms which do >not occur in certain texts to describe concepts advocated therein is not >per se problematic. Well, it all depends on what you're trying to do. If you are trying to do history, it may well be problematic. And if you are trying to understand an author within his/her context, it may be even more problematic. In any case, as I suggested in the earlier message, the formulation of *aatmakhyaati* also raises certain issues that do not work well in the Buddhist system. It places unwanted emphasis on the problem of accounting for the notion that two entities are *sad.rza* without postulating a hypostasized *saad.r.zyam*. > >I am curious about what makes you think that Devendrabuddhi et al. may >have perceived the *khyaati*-terms as "a strategem to draw them into a >debate that they could not win". Are you thinking of the argument that >an acceptance of a Niraakaaraj~naanavaada-type theory entails the >acceptance of the (unwanted) doctrine of *asatkhyaati*? No, although this points to one of the reasons why *aatmakhyaati* does not work well as an intepretive device: it collapses the distinction between a *satyaakaara* and an *aliikaakaara* reading of Dharmakiirti. I was thinking more of the issue of simalarity mentioned above. Kar.nakagomin kind of puts his foot into this one (see his additions to Zaakyabuddhi's comments on p. 207, line 19ff, etc.). > >...Schmithausen voices the opinion that Man.d.ana's representation of >Madhyamaka arguments have an ontologizing tendency which runs against at >least Naagaarjuna's intentions. However, Schmithausen does not invoke >the two-truth-framework in this context - what he considers problematic >is the high emphasis placed on an "absolute non-existence" in the >Maadhyamika position as it is presented by Man.d.ana. > Well, I'll have to look more closely at Schmithausen's book one of these days. As I recall, Vaacaspatimizra's formulation ignores the distinction between claiming that something is ultimately nonexistent, but conventionally existent. It thus does not allow for the distinction between *mithyaasa.mv.rtti* and *tathyasa.mv.rtti* (or, for Candrakiirti, *sa.mv.rttisatya* and *sa.mv.rttimaatra*). That is, from a conventional perspective, some things appear real, while others appear illusory/false; but in ultimate terms, all those things -- whether conventionally real or conventionally illusory/false-- are equally unreal. Without this distinction (between tathya- and mithyaasa.mv.rtti or between sa.mv.rttisatya and sa.mvr.ttimaatra), one arrives at Hegel's "night in which all cows are black," which is the formulation heaped upon those poor madhyamakas by the nasty *asatkhyaati* analysis. >Seriously, "atasmi.s tad iti pratyayah." (or "j~naanam.") is >over-abundant in Nyaaya-Vai'ses.ika literature (Nyaayabhaas.ya, >Nyaayavaarttika, Padaarthadharmasa.ngraha, Candraananda's >Vai'ses.ikasuutravr.tti, etc.). There's nothing specifically Buddhist >about it; it's not too easy an answer, it's simply a non-starter. Hmmm... I wouldn't say so. Certainly, *atasmi.ms tadj~naana* is not just all over Nyaaya, it's found in nearly every system (and the qualifier "nearly" is probably not even necessary). The point for Dharmakiirti is that any elaboration beyond that point necessarily leads to the construction of a universal or an entity that functions like a universal. As usual when confronted by the problem of similarity, Dharmakiirti essentially retreats to *svasa.mvedana*: when an entity is mistaken for an other, their apparent similarity is accounted for by nature (*prak.rti*) of those particulars; they just present themselves in that fashion in perception, and this fact is given by apperception. In a sense, then, Dharmakiirti is struggling not to elaborate beyond the simple *atasmi.ms tadj~naana*. Of course, he does present a mechanism to describe how this works, but in ontological terms, he is seeking to base error on the particulars themselves: the particulars involved are the basis for the error. This is all comes clear in the passage I cited previously (PVSV ad PV 1.98-99ab). So I suppose I would not say that *atasmi.ms tadj~naana* is a "non-starter"; rather, this is the starting place for all Indian theories of error. The interesting thing about Dharmakiirti is that, as I read him, he is trying to say that any attempt to move beyond the starting point carries you into realism of some kind. You might call this an aspect of Dharmakiirti's "madhyamaka" side. When I said: >> ... I am still unconvinced that >> Dharmakiirti responds to the *Zlokavaartika* in his *Svav.rtti*. Birgit asked: >Do you intend that as a general statement, or with specific focus on >theories of error? In the former case, I'm curious on what prompts your >scepticism. I was thinking specifically of theories of error, for I doubt that Ka.rnakgomin's reference to Kumaarila is accurate. But since you mentioned it, I do think that there is a general problem here: we have only the most tenuous evidence for fixing a relative chronology for Kumaarila and Dharmakiirti even in general. Krasser's Hiroshima paper certainly adds weight to the argument, but it rests on the presumption that certain arguments against iizvara did not exist in Miimaa.msaka circles before Dharmakiirti. The history of Miimaa.msaa between Zabara and Kumaarila is so sketchy that I find this presumption difficult to accept. The other obvious question is: if Dharmakiirti knew of Kumaarila's iizavaraduu.sa.na arguments, does this mean that he knew of the whole *Zlokavaarttika*? Were texts only circulated in their complete form, or were various verses or sections circulated independently? Was a text such as the *Zlokavaarttika* composed all at once, or was it composed over several years during which completed portions were circulated? When I read the *pratyak.sapariccheda* of Dharmakiirti's *pramaa.navaarttika*, I often get the impression that it was meant to stand on its own -- otherwise, it is simply too repetitive with regard to other portions of the PV. The same argument has already been made for the *Svav.rtti*, although there are strong reasons to reject that argument. Now, I am NOT saying that either the *pratyak.sa* or *anumaana* chapters of the PV were in fact composed and circulated as separate treatises. I am just saying that this is a possibility worthy of examining. Remember there is a precedent for this way of producing texts: legend has it that the *Pramaa.nasamuccaya* was Dignaaga's attempt to draw together various scattered works that were already in circulation. In any case, the relationship between Kumaarila and Dharmakiirti is certainly not a straightforward one, in the sense that we have no clear evidence for fixing a relative chronology. I suspect that we will always be somewhat in doubt about this issue, perhpas because they were contemporaries. Birgit also said: > I must confess that I have not yet >considered the issue of Dharmakiirti and the *aalayavij~naana*, but I >was just reminded that a couple of months ago, I was taught that >Dharmakiirti does not accept an *aalayavij~naana* ... > Ah, yes, the triumph of the Tibetans! As near as I can tell, the ubiquitous claim that Dharmakiirti did not accept *aalayavij~naana* has entered into contemporary discourse through various Tibetan sources (perhaps promulgated by Stcherbatsky?). The dGe lugs pas (who have a severe allergy to *kun gzhi*) hit this notion particularly hard. I too was first taught that Dharmakiirti rejects *aalayavij~naana* -- imagine my surprise when I began to run into passages that are based on the theory. In the passage I metioned earlier, for example, *vaasanaa* plays a crucial part. It's a bit lengthy to go into it now (although I could send a translation, if you would like). It is worth noting, however, that Zaakyabuddhi (111b=K206, with correction) does use yogaacaara language when he glosses the various instances of *vaasanaa* in this passage.For example, in glossing *svaanubhavavaasanaa-* [Gnoli, 49.22], he gives (derge je, 11b5-6): *dngos po de dag gi rang nyams su myong ba sngar skyes pa des ngo shes pa skye bar byed pa'i bag chags nus pa'i mtshan nyid gzhag pa gang yin pa* [=K20618-20: *te.saam bhaavaanaa.m ya.h svonabhuaava.h puurva.m utpannas tena yaa pratyabhij~naanotpattaye vaasanaa zaktilak.sanaahitaa {corrected from -aaditaa}]. One can argue that *Aalayavij~naana* is assumed as the place where the *vaasanaa* is "placed" (*aahitaa*). In response, some would argue that *vaasanaa* can simply be placed in *manovij~aana*. A clearer reference appears later in this passage: *sarve.saa.m [=vikalpapratyayaanaa.m] viplave'pi pramaa.natadaabhaasavyavasthaa aa aazrayaparaav.rtter arthakriyaayogyaabhimatasa.mvaadanaat* [Gnoli, 51.3-4] By Dharmakiirti's time, any discussion of *aazrayaparaav.rtti* would assume *aalayavij~naana*. In any case, this is how Zaakyabuddhi understands it. He glosses (115a1): *gnas pa ni kun gzhi rnam par shes pa'i mkhrul pa'i sa bon can no / gnas gyur pa ni sgrib pa an bral ba'o* [Skt preserved in K(211.8-9): *aazrayo bhraantibiijam aalayavij~naa.m tasya paraav.rttir aavara.navigama.h*]. Thus, for Zaakyabuddhi (and Kar.nakagomin) at least, Dharmakiirti is explicitly referring to aalayavij~naana. I tend to agree, especially in view of the way *vaasanaa* is used in the passage. There are other, even more obvious places where Dharmakiirti refers to *aalayavij~aana*. For example, at after rejecting in PV3.334-335 the notion that a *baahyaartha* is necessary to account for the fact that there are limits on perception, he remarks: *kasyacit ki.mcid evaantarvaasanaayaa.h prabodhakam/ tato dhiyaa.m viniyamo na baahyaarthavyapek.sayaa* //PV3.336// This is classic yogaacaara, and it requires *aalayavij~anaana* as part of the process. But the most explicit is: *sak.rdvijaatiiyajaataav apy ekena pa.tiiyasaa/ cittenaahitavaigu.nyaad aalayaan naa.nyasambhava.h //PV3.522// All the extant Indian commentaries (in Tibetan trans. or Skt.) gloss *aalayaat* here as *aalayavij~naanaat*; it is also clear that Dharmakiirti means to defend this position. In any case, the Indian commentarial tradition certainly understood Dharmakiirti to be accepting *aalyavij~naana* (I have seen other references in Devendrabuddhi, Zaakyabuddhi, Viniitadeva and Praj~naakaragupta). In part, they understand this position to be linked to the refutation of *baahyaartha* in the *pratyak.sa* chapter of PV. Since the other passage (PVSV ad PV1.98-99ab) also refers to a yogaacaara position, it is not surprising to find implicit reference to *aalayavij~aana* there as well. >BTW, another article which covers theories of error is Eli Franco's >"Studies in the Tattvopaplavasimha, II. The Theory of Error", Journal of >Indian Philosophy 12/1984, 105-137. Hey, I forgot this one! I read it about ten years ago, which means I probably had no clue what it meant. Thanks for the reminder. Well, it's time to stop. Ciao, John ______________________________ John Dunne Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Sun Feb 22 12:19:24 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 15:19:24 +0300 Subject: the Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227036012.23782.15844786719860498457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, does anybody know more or less definitely what was the Roerichs' role in spreading "Jesus in India" fairy-tale? I have only some vague information that Nikolas Roerich (the father) visited Hemis and "confirmed the authencity" of the "Notovich manuscript". How could he do it we may only guess because, as far as I can judge on the basis on his writings, he did not know Tibetan or any Indian languages. I do hope that his son George (Yuri) Roerich, who was a serious and really high-class scholar, had nothing in common with it. But I would like to have this suggestion verified. The answer probably is to be found in Groenbold's book, but it may prove to be very difficult to consult it while staying in Russia. Thanks in advance Yaroslav V.Vassilkov St.Petersburg From dvmason at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU Sun Feb 22 21:31:51 1998 From: dvmason at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Dave and Celia Mason) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 15:31:51 -0600 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus In-Reply-To: <34F07EFB.4FF4@sfo.com> Message-ID: <161227036023.23782.14068343413277209607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Mary Storm wrote: > >There are an awful lot of people in the world claiming descent from the >lost tribe! This theory is in conflict with the Mormon mythology which >also claims a lost tribe descent, as well as a belief that Jesus was >teaching in South America after the Resurrection. But maybe Jesus spent >the post-Resurrection years in a kind of bi-continental commute. > >Mary Not necessarily in conflict with Mormon mythology. The Mormons don't claim that the American people Jesus visited have "lost tribe" status. They also explicitly teach that America was only one stop on a kind of "world tour" for Jesus, and that we don't yet have any record of where else he hung out. So why not Kashmir? There is some contradiction, though: the Mormon idea is that Jesus started globe-trotting after the resurrection, so while they probably wouldn't object to the concept of Jesus in India, they wouldn't likely buy the idea that his grave is there. Dave Dave and Celia Mason dvmason at students.wisc.edu http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/tnd/tas/mason/cv.html From umadevi at SFO.COM Mon Feb 23 01:13:53 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 17:13:53 -0800 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus Message-ID: <161227036028.23782.9306849237689216022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dave and Celia Mason wrote: > > >Mary Storm wrote: > > > >There are an awful lot of people in the world claiming descent from the > >lost tribe! This theory is in conflict with the Mormon mythology which > >also claims a lost tribe descent, as well as a belief that Jesus was > >teaching in South America after the Resurrection. But maybe Jesus spent > >the post-Resurrection years in a kind of bi-continental commute. > Not necessarily in conflict with Mormon mythology. The Mormons don't claim > that the American people Jesus visited have "lost tribe" status. They also > explicitly teach that America was only one stop on a kind of "world tour" > for Jesus, and that we don't yet have any record of where else he hung out. > So why not Kashmir? Hi Dave, We are getting a little far afield here, but as far as I can tell, The Book of Mormon (which is similar in style to The Old Testament in King James translation) does indeed purport to detail the history of a tribe of Israel that migrated from Jerusalem to the New World in about 600 BCE, they were led by the prophet Lehi. Once they arrived in the New World they migrated and split into 2 groups: the virtuous Nephites and the sinful Lamanites. Cheers, Mary From thompson at JLC.NET Mon Feb 23 00:14:11 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 20:14:11 -0400 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227036026.23782.8553913696246800854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been overburdened by other responsibilities, and I regret not being able to participate in the recent discussion. However, perhaps it is not too late to make an observation, and a suggestion. In spite of what may have been suggested or implied, the question of the Aryan migration should not be understood as a dispute between indigenous scholars as opposed to alien, i.e., European or Western, scholars. No. The recent posts of M. Deshpande and B. Krishnamurti show that such a division is wrong. Since this is a scholarly list, we all have a responsibility to try to make ourselves reasonably informed about the issues raised. Of course, all members of the list can and should feel free to solicit opinions or advice from ziSTas. We also all have a certain right [and even a responsibility!] to challenge these ziSTas when we are persuaded that they are wrong. But there is a reasonable expectation that all list members will make some effort to be informed about the issues that they debate on the list. Clearly, some members of the list need to pick up an introductory book on linguistics and read it. There are ziSTas on the list who could recommend good ones. But beyond that, it might be reasonable to expect that an extended discussion like the recent one on "linguistics" should be focussed on a particular issue concerning linguistics, rather than on blanket assertions about the general inadequacies of linguistics, etc. A modest proposal: perhaps we can discipline ourselves to focus future discussions around particular issues and particular texts. It seems to me that this "linguistics" thread would have been far more useful if we had all agreed at some point to focus our debate on a key article or book. Perhaps we could collectively decide to read a particular article by Schaffer or Witzel or Hock or Parpola or Deshpande or Aklujkar or Krishnamurti, and use this as the focal point of a debate. We need to find a way to make this list more rigorous. Best wishes, George Thompson From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sun Feb 22 20:58:45 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 21:58:45 +0100 Subject: Linguistics In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980221130049.2bc737bc@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227036037.23782.8953935571661153327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:09:50 +0500 Bh. Krishnamurti wrote >You are right; I do not think any genuine Indian linguist buys the theory >that Sanskrit originated in India and travelled north and west. The >rejection of the Skt descent of Dravidian is over 100 years old, although >you occasionally come across pseudo experts/traditional pundits who repeat >the abandoned theory, because they are not basicaly linguists. The other >kind, like Subrahmanya in the list, mistake aspects of convergence between >languages through contact as genetic phenomena. They have basically no idea >of how genetic relationships are established among languages. It's absolutely normal that many Indian people don't know well the genetic linguistic because it is mainly based on Eurindian studies. As stated few time ago, they don't know Latin and Greek nor other (modern and ancient) westerner languages except English. And it's very difficult to see links between English and Sanskrit for two reasons: 1) the English grammar have lost most of the Eurindian features. As an example, the well known parallelism between Sanskrit asti/santi, Latin est/sunt, German ist/sind don't match English is/are! 2) the vocabulary of English comes from two sources, Germanic and Italic, and it's hard to distinguish them by someone not knowing other Germanic languages nor French and Latin. Hence, reading past mailings, I believe that many of Indian people don't know the regularity of phonetical correspondancies, just thinking that likeness is sufficient. Going back to the source of the discussion, I suppose they would be amazed to know that the words: Greek kokkUx, Modern Greek koukos, Latin cucUlus, French coucou, English cuckoo, German Kuckuck, Sanskrit kokilaH are NOT phonetically related. Their likeness is nothing but a common onomatopoeia, based on the bird's song. Hence, searching which is the FIRST between kokilaH and kukil is probably wasting time! But this example is a rare one. Usually the correspondancies are very good and SCIENTIFIC ones, but need to know ancient languages. A form such Sanskrit bharanti don't had good cognates in modern languages: English bear have lost the final, German tragen and French portent use other roots; but Latin ferunt, Greek pherousi (Dorian pheronti) and Gotic bairand are able to give us a reconstruction *bheronti. And not just by likeness! We have, well attested by many other examples: *bh > Skr. bh, Gr. ph, Lat. f (initial), Got. b *e > Skr. a, Gr. e, Lat. e, Got. ai (before r) *r unchanged *o > Skr. a, Gr. o, Lat. u (in this position), Got. a cp. the thematic nominatives Skr. -aH, Gr. -os, Lat. -us, Proto-Germ. -az &c. It's hard to have a serious debate between peoples who don't share the same cultural background! Not knowing some languages is not a fault, just an educational fact: I don't know any of the modern Indian languages ... Regards, Dominique PS: I know that some Indian scholars are perfectly knowing what I've said. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From dvmason at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU Mon Feb 23 04:08:15 1998 From: dvmason at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Dave and Celia Mason) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 22:08:15 -0600 Subject: The Lost Years of Jesus In-Reply-To: <34F0CD05.730C@sfo.com> Message-ID: <161227036030.23782.10615332951577762062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hi Dave, >We are getting a little far afield here, but as far as I can tell, The >Book of Mormon (which is similar in style to The Old Testament in King >James translation) does indeed purport to detail the history of a tribe >of Israel that migrated from Jerusalem to the New World in about 600 >BCE, they were led by the prophet Lehi. Once they arrived in the New >World they migrated and split into 2 groups: the virtuous Nephites and >the sinful Lamanites. >Cheers, >Mary Right. We were talking about "lost tribe" status, correct? The Mormons don't group these "Nephites" and "Lamanites" with the "lost tribes." By the way: I'm still looking for the Sanskrit "Midsummer Night's Dream" from 1892. I've received one lead so far. Can anyone confirm that this was published in Tamil Nadu? Any other information about this would be much appreciated. Dave Dave and Celia Mason dvmason at students.wisc.edu http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/tnd/tas/mason/cv.html From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Feb 23 09:12:41 1998 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 10:12:41 +0100 Subject: more on vada / vadin In-Reply-To: <34EE709C.F7AEC660@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227036032.23782.16955188514214714965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 21 Feb 98 at 15:13, Birgit Kellner wrote: > (1) I suppose Sasaki has taken note of the relevant section (or one > of the relevant sections) in the Mahaavyutpatti, where, judging from > the viewpoint of Tibetan and Chinese translations, an > "anything-goes"-style approach seems to have been taken. MVy 9077 > aaryasarvaastivaadaah. (plural!) has the Tibetan equivalent 'phags > pa thams cad yod par smra ba (In the BHS-dictionnary, Edgerton uses > this as evidence for the lemma "sarvaastivada, m.pl.(!), 'n. of > school'"). The plural in MVy 9078 muulasarvaastivaadaah., on the > other hand, is translated with Tib. _gzhi thams cad yod par smra > ba'i sde_ (=school!). In each of these cases, the Chinese has TWO > equivalents each, one as "school" and one as "person". Several other > entries of this section have Tibetan translations of _smra ba'i sde_ > for _-vaadinah._ (the Chinese alternates between "school" and > "person); and _sde_ is also affixed to other plural expressions for > persons, e.g. Abhayagirivaasinah., Jetavaniiyaah., > Mahaavihaaravaasinah., etc. See also S'iks.asamuccaya 148.13 > _-vaadaanaam_ (ed. Bibliotheca Buddhica), where Bendall suggests > reading _-vaadinaam._, and gives the Tibetan as _'phags pa thams cad > yod par smra ba rnams kyi_ ... The new critical edition of the Mahaavyutpatti (ed. by Yumiko Ishihama and Yoichi Fukuda, Tokyo: The Toyo Bunko 1989, Materials for Tibetan and Mongolian Dictionaries 1) gives the following relevant readings for the Tibetan: No. 9014 (= No. 9077 ed. Sakaki): 'phags pa thams cad yod par smra No. 9015 (= No. 9078 ed. Sakaki): gzhi thams cad yod par smra ba'i sde No. 9022 (= No. 9085 ed. Sakaki): 'phags pa kun gyis bkur No. 9026 (= No. 9089 ed. Sakaki): dge 'dun phal chen No. 9032 (= No. 9095 ed. Sakaki): 'phags pa gnas brtan Judging from this, it seems at least to be questionable whether the Tibetans have actually taken an "anything-goes"-style approach in that case. Best regards, Roland Steiner -- Dr. Roland Steiner Fachgebiet Indologie FB 11 der Philipps-Universitaet Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6 D-35032 Marburg (Briefanschrift / for letters) D-35039 Marburg (Paketanschrift / for parcels) Germany Tel.: +49-6421-282184 Fax: +49-6421-284995 email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Mon Feb 23 10:32:40 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 11:32:40 +0100 Subject: Caldwell, Dravidian Linguistics (was: : Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036035.23782.972901951555338164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> S Krishna sagte : > FYI, Monier Williams was the first one to postulate that all languages > are derived from Sanskrit( Monier Williams was a great *nationalist* > scholar, eh?...Arun Shourie assures us that his dictionary was compiled > to help missionaries translate the bible into samskrt)until > Alexander Campbell noted something contrary and the Dravidian theo > ry was postulated much later.... It was not A.D. Campbell, the first, to note something contrary, I believe. Its F.W. Ellis (?-1819), an eminent linguist and orientalist, who unfortunately died quite young (accidentally swallowing some unidentified poison during his visit to RamnaaD). It is Ellis, in his scholorly: "Note to the introduction" (pp. 1-31) to AD Campbell's: A Grammar of the Teloogoo Language, commonly termed the Gentoo, Peculiar to the Hindoos Inhabiting the north eastern provinces of the Indian Peninsula (1816, 2nd ed. 1820, 3rd ed. 1848) who opined, long before Caldwell, that Tamil, Telugu and other cognate languages of South India donot belong to the stock of the Sanskrit language. Campbell did unequivocally disagree with Carey's convention in his introd. to the above book (i-XXi) that the languages of south India had the same origin of the north. But, (after paying a glowing tribute to Ellis) ADC considered Ellis a better authority on this. Ellis, in this long note, clearly anticipates Caldwell. The note has all the elements in germ which the author might have developed into an authoratative work, if he didnot die so suddenly. It is little strange that Caldwell in his monumental work: "A comparative grammar of the Dravidian .......", did not mention (?) Ellis's note although he mentioned Campbell's introduction. Regards, --Sreenivas P.S. I don't have access to Caldwell's work off-hand, but remember that he didn't acknowledge Ellis - as the first person to show the path -. Pl. correct me! From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Feb 23 21:12:33 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 15:12:33 -0600 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036042.23782.5055709510444352798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jean Leopald, The Aryan theory of Race in India, 1876-1920. Nationalist and Internationalist Views. Indian Economic and Social History Review, 7, 2, June 1970. This volume is important because this was written much before Indian theories with Out-of-India models started appearing. N. Ganesan From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 23 21:34:32 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 16:34:32 -0500 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) In-Reply-To: <199802232129.WAA28609@online.no> Message-ID: <161227036047.23782.12031035600313963752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'll look for it Lars. It's somewhere buried dowstairs (I hope). Edwin On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > At 15:12 23.02.98 -0600, you wrote: > >Jean Leopald, The Aryan theory of Race in India, 1876-1920. > >Nationalist and Internationalist Views. > >Indian Economic and Social History Review, 7, 2, June 1970. > > > >This volume is important because this was written much before > >Indian theories with Out-of-India models started appearing. > > > > Is there anybody out there with access to this article? I am pretty certain > that the University of Oslo does not have it, and I would very much like to > read it for a talk I am giving on March 4th. > > If anyone could send me a copy of the article - or fax it to me - I would be > eternally grateful, not to mention the punya that that person would achieve > (I think we are practically talking instant moksha here!) > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > > Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 23 17:13:16 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 22:13:16 +0500 Subject: Caldwell, Dravidian Linguistics (was: : Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036040.23782.5773048692604116818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, Caldwell may not have seen Ellis' intro to Campbell. I mentioned about Ellis' work in my article on comparative Dravidian published in Current Trends in Linguistics, Vol. 5, ed. by Thomas Sebeok. Nidadvolu Venkata Rao was the first to bring Ellis' dissertation to light. I gave a reference in my article. Ellis discovered the Dravidian family. But it was Sir William Jones who intuitively discovered the concept of a language family some 30 years before 1786.Bh.K. At 11:32 23/02/98 +0100, you wrote: >>> S Krishna sagte : > >It is little strange that Caldwell in his monumental work: "A comparative >grammar of the Dravidian .......", did not mention (?) Ellis's note although >he mentioned Campbell's introduction. > >Regards, --Sreenivas > >P.S. I don't have access to Caldwell's work off-hand, but remember >that he didn't acknowledge Ellis - as the first person to show the path -. >Pl. correct me! > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Feb 23 21:29:05 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 22:29:05 +0100 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036044.23782.8419547995227059582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:12 23.02.98 -0600, you wrote: >Jean Leopald, The Aryan theory of Race in India, 1876-1920. >Nationalist and Internationalist Views. >Indian Economic and Social History Review, 7, 2, June 1970. > >This volume is important because this was written much before >Indian theories with Out-of-India models started appearing. > Is there anybody out there with access to this article? I am pretty certain that the University of Oslo does not have it, and I would very much like to read it for a talk I am giving on March 4th. If anyone could send me a copy of the article - or fax it to me - I would be eternally grateful, not to mention the punya that that person would achieve (I think we are practically talking instant moksha here!) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 23 23:45:13 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 23:45:13 +0000 Subject: Hindi posts in the UK (fwd) Message-ID: <161227036050.23782.3556947674325976768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:18:12 +0000 From: Richard Gombrich To: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Subject: Hindi posts in the UK Please would you be so kind as to publicise the following job advertisements to members of the INDOLOGY list: --------------------------- DE MONTFORT UNIVERSITY, LEICESTER FACULTY OF HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES HALF-TIME (.5) FIXED-TERM RESEARCH FELLOWSHIP IN HINDI Salary: ?16,961 to ?23,123 per annum pro rata Applications are invited for a half-time fixed-term Research Fellowship in Hindi in the University's Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences. The post is tenable for 3 years from 1 October 1998. Candidates should have a research interest in the field of South Asian Religions. Preference may be given to candidates with an interest in Hinduism and/or Jainism. A proven high standard of research excellence and the ability to provide postgraduate supervision are necessary conditions of appointment. Informal enquiries about the post may be directed to Dr Richard Fynes, tel 0116-2551551 ext 8316; fax 0116-2577199; email rccfynes at dmu.ac.uk. Application forms and further particulars can be obtained from Pam Hawcroft, Personnel Department, De Montfort University, The Gateway, Leicester LE1 9BH. Tel 0116-2551551. Formal applications should be received by Friday, 13 March 1998. The attention of prospective candidates for the Research Fellowship at De Montfort is drawn to the Half-Time Fixed-Term Lectureship in Hindi currently being advertised by the University of Oxford. Candidates may wish to apply for both posts. To facilitate this, De Montfort University and the University of Oxford are synchronising their appointment processes. Further information about the Oxford post may be obtained from Dr A. M. Knowland, The Faculty of Oriental Studies, Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE (tel 01865-278200; fax 01865-278190; email orient at orinst.ox.ac.uk). -------------------- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD FACULTY OF ORIENTAL STUDIES HALF-TIME FIXED-TERM UNIVERSITY LECTURERSHIP IN HINDI Salary ?16,045 - ?33,202 per annum pro rata Applications are invited for a new half-time and fixed-term University Lecturership in Hindi in the University's Faculty of Oriental Studies, tenable for five years from 1 October 1998. The University salary will be according to age on the scale ?16,045 - ?33,202 per annum pro rata. The lecturer will be required to teach modern and mediaeval Hindi at both elementary and more advanced levels. Preference may be given to candidates with an interest in Hinduism and/or Jainism. A proven high standard of research excellence and the ability to provide graduate supervision are necessary conditions of appointment. Further particulars of the post (which all candidates are asked to consult) may be obtained from the office of Dr A. M. Knowland, Secretary to the Board of the Faculty of Oriental Studies, Oriental Institute, Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE (Tel: 01865 278200; Fax: 01865 278190; E-mail: orient at orinst.ox.ac.uk). Formal applications naming three referees (twelve typed copies, or only one from overseas) should be sent to Dr Knowland by Tuesday 10 March 1998. From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Mon Feb 23 18:12:58 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 03:12:58 +0900 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227036094.23782.16710015964990645146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev wrote: > > ---Birgit Kellner wrote: > > > > > Maybe the following publication would be of use: > > > > Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya: > > Caarvaaka/Lokaayata: An Anthology of Source Materials and Some Recent > > Studies. In collaboration with Mrinal Kanti Gangopadhyaya. New Delhi: > > Indian Council of Philosophical Research, 1990. > > > > I were You, I would not recommend this book since it is real science > fiction (as Eli Franco said and I cannot but agree with him). But if > somebody is Marxism fan, I would advise to read and enjoy Ruben's > articles as well. :-)) > > With best regards, Dmitry Olenev If you were me, you wouldn't be you anymore. In which case you would not possess the knowledge which enables *you* to write the above (because, I, being me, can assure you that I don't possess it, or didn't, until I read your message). From which it follows that you, being me, would have no reason NOT to indicate that the publication in question might be useful; from which we can conclude that, ESPECIALLY if you were me, you would be more than likely to "recommend" this book :-) Anyway, thanks for the information. Now, me being me, I recommend without any hesitation another publication which recently came my way - Shigeaki Watanabe: koten Caarvaaka-ha no ninshikiron - danpen no keifuu (the epistemology of the classical Caarvaaka school: Genealogy of Fragments). Journal of Naritasan Institute for Buddhist Studies 17: Papers in Honour of the Reverend Chief Abbot Shoseki Tsurumi on the Occasion of His 77th Birthday, 1994, pp. 11-131. I can't remember whether Watanabe actually gives titles of Lokaayata texts (which was the original question), but he gives plenty of Sanskrit passages which *might*, in turn, mention titles (which I would know, if I had the article right here, but I don't). Counterfactually yours, -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 24 12:10:01 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 04:10:01 -0800 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227036070.23782.10525154659261669610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---Birgit Kellner wrote: > > > ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > > > > > 2/13/98 > > > > > > Want to know the titles of texts on Lokayata philosophy in Sanskrit > > > and other Indian languages. I read that Madhava Vidyaranya's > > > Sarva Darshana Samgraha has few quotations. Where can I find > > > Brhaspati's sutras taught to Indra? Is there a complete text > > > in Sanskrit on Lokayatam? > > > > > > The reason I am asking this is because, in Tamil there is late > > > 11th century/early 12th century vaLamaTal prabandham > > > by Kaviccakravartti JayamkoNTaar. It is only 550 lines > > > and expresses Lokayata philosophy. Of course, Buddhist > > > Manimekalai, Jain Neelakesi and Saiva Siddhanta SivaJaana > > > Siddhiyaar refutes Lokayata princilpes. A palm leaf mss. > > > of the Lokayata prabandham is at GOML, Madras. The other > > > is at Perur Adheenam near Coimbatore. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > N. Ganesan > > Maybe the following publication would be of use: > > Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya: > Caarvaaka/Lokaayata: An Anthology of Source Materials and Some Recent > Studies. In collaboration with Mrinal Kanti Gangopadhyaya. New Delhi: > Indian Council of Philosophical Research, 1990. > > > -- > Birgit Kellner > Department for Indian Philosophy > Hiroshima University > I were You, I would not recommend this book since it is real science fiction (as Eli Franco said and I cannot but agree with him). But if somebody is Marxism fan, I would advise to read and enjoy Ruben's articles as well. :-)) With best regards, Dmitry Olenev _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 24 14:28:13 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 06:28:13 -0800 Subject: Naciketas Message-ID: <161227036079.23782.5864629231160416217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:21:58 +0000 >Reply-To: Indology >From: Dominik Wujastyk >Subject: Re: Naciketas >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >See New Catalogus Catalogorum / Raghavan et al. under "Naciketopaakhyaana" >(9.321), "Naasiketopaakhyaana" (10.110) and especially >"Naaciketopaakhyaana" (10.23-24), where a romanized edition and Italian >translation in the Giornale dellla Soc. Asiatica Italiana 1902-4 is >referred to. > >All the best, >Dominik > >-- >Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine >email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England > FAX: 44 171 611 8545 > I am grateful for the reference. Actually, Catalogus Catalogorum was my main source for the information about MSS dealing with Naciketas. I am looking now for the source of the story in these MSS, where Naciketas is born out of his mother's nose. Most MSS claim that the source is Brahmanda Purana. If anyone knows of a text of Brahmanda Purana that includes the Naciketa Katha (NAsiketopAkhyAna), I shall be most grateful for the information. Thanks in advance. Amos Nevo 14/51 Bolivia St. Jerusalem 96746 ISRAEL fAX. 972 2 6419215 Email: amnev at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 24 03:57:11 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 08:57:11 +0500 Subject: "Occasional Papers" by Budaraju Radhakrishna Message-ID: <161227036052.23782.3950971286803367385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JUST OUT A book by Dr.Budaraju Radhakrishna, a renowned linguist in telugu, erstwhile Deputy Director of Telugu Akademi and presently Principal, Eenadu School of Jounalism, Hyderabad. ************************************************************************* OCCASIONAL PAPERS (In Language and Literature) by Budaraju Radhakrishna Demmy 8vo, x+155 pages, HB, $15 Contents Homomorphy and Semantic Restrictions in Telugu Is Negative a Tense in Telugu? Role of Poetry in Language Teaching Some Rare Alternations in Telugu Dialects Methodological Contribution of Telugu Dialect Dictionaries Grammatical Theories and Lexicography in Telugu Grammer Teaching in Telugu Contributions of European Scholars to Telugu Grammer and Lexicography Language Movements in Telugu Language Surveys in India Language Use in Administration of Law Terminology, Etymology and Linguistics Diglossia in Telugu Study of Diglossia and Telugu Situation Diglossia and Related Concepts Place Names and Literature Telugu Language and Literature India as a Literary Area - Unsolved Problems in Literary Trends ************************************************************************* For Copies Prachee Publications 1-1-336/73, Chikkadpally Hyderabad - 500 020 India. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Feb 24 15:01:54 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 09:01:54 -0600 Subject: Caldwell, Dravidian Linguistics (Was: : Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036084.23782.17839721787798705346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Francis Whyte Ellis, a British administrator, is a very interesting figure. He is the original founder of the idea of Dravidian language family. This is given in Encyclopaedia Brittanica. He appointed A. Muttusami Pillai of Pondichery as a Munshi (language-pundit) to teach Tamil in the College of Fort St. George, Madras. It was at the instigation of F. W. Ellis that Muttusami Pillai began collecting Tamil manuscripts. In point of fact, it was most probably Muttusami Pillai who was the *first* scholar to make an extensive tour of Tamil Nadu, in 1816, with the explicit purpose to search for, collect and classify Tamil palmleaf manuscripts in particular the works of Beschi (1680-1747), a Jesuit missionary, who tamilized his name as Veeramaamunivar. Ellis visited the palace of the Sethupatis of Ramnad, because he can get in touch with erudite scholars. The fate of the Ellis collection of South Indian manuscripts, mainly with the help of A. Muttusami Pillai, was unfortunate. The successor to Ellis in Madras was not interested in S. Indian languages. His name is Peter, I recollect. Collector Peter's butler used Ellis' 2 or 3 rooms-full manuscripts to kindle the oven fires, for the Collectors' evening parties. It seems this information is given in an obituary to an English scholar of Tamil that appeared in Sunday Times, London. F. W. Ellis' life, his manuscripts, their fate etc., is well worth investigating. Or, is it already done? I read about the manuscripts and their burning about 15 years ago in K. Meenakshisundaram, The contribution of European scholars to Tamil, Univ. of Madras, 1974, 370 p. Ellis published his translation of 13 short chapters of Tirukkural when he was alive. From his handwritten manuscripts, Prof. R. P. Sethu Pillai edited for the whole of Arattuppaal section of Tirukkural. Tirukkural: Ellis' commentary. Edited by R. P. Sethu Pillai, Univ. of Madras, 1956, 406 p. It appears some more of Ellis' manuscripts, translations remain unpublished. R. E. Asher, Notes on F. W. Ellis and an Unpublished fragment of His Commentary on Tirukkural. Proc. of the First International Conference Seminar of Tamil studies, Kuala Lumpur, (2 vol.), 1968-69 It is interesting that Beschi(1680-1747) wrote the Christian epic, Tembavani in chaste Tamil on the life of St. Joseph. Likewise, F. W. Ellis composed several poems that are included in tanippaaTal tiraTTu (Anthology of solitary verses). After Beschi and Ellis, I do not know of non-south-asian scholars who can compose tamil poetry using ancient or medieval meters. May be, in 18th/19th centuries, in order to prove oneself in tamil scholarship, composing poetry was deemed essential. Nowadays, prose would do. Regards, N. Ganesan Some related references: 1) R. E. Asher, 250 years after: Some features of Ziegenbalg's study of Tamil, Proc. I Int. Conf. Seminar of Tamil studies, Kuala Lumpur, 1968-69. 2) K. Zvelebil, One hundred years of Dravidian comparative philology, Archiv Orientalni, 24, 1956, p. 599-609 3) K. Zvelebil, A note on early history of Dravidology, J. of Tamil Studies, Madras, 27, 1985, p. 1-23 4) K. Zvelebil, Dravidian Linguistics today, J. of Asian studies, Madras, 2, 1, 1984, p. 1-40 5) K. Zvelebil, Beginnings of the history of Dravidian civilization in South India J. of Tamil studies, Madras, 23, 1983, p. 17-25 From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Tue Feb 24 06:46:41 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 09:46:41 +0300 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036054.23782.10809809886508430256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Mon Feb 23 22:15:25 MSK 1998 I send this message on behalf of my colleague Dmitry Olenev: Dear members of the list, recently I learned a very curious fact from the preface to the edition of "NyaayaalaMkaara" (Gaekwad Oriental Series, N169, 1981, p.XXII): the real author of SarvadarzanasaMgraha was, perhaps, a certain nayayika CannibhaTTa, and not Maadhavaacaarya. I think, there is no need to emphasize the importance of the fact since SDS is one of the most popular sources on Indian philosophy and its history. Does anyone of you know how far the solution of the authorship problem progressed? Regards, Dmitry Olenev From roheko at MSN.COM Tue Feb 24 08:53:54 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 09:53:54 +0100 Subject: vibhUSana Message-ID: <161227036056.23782.6045584454278369881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apart few vedic issues, where vi-bhUSa- has to be explained as "working for someone else, etc.", I am looking for later sources with a similar meaning. Middle Indian occurances of vi-bhUSa-na "working for someone else, etc." would be fine. Someone can help me? Probably in connection with a term describing "property"? I am not searching for vibhUSana = "decoration, etc." (which of course is also done by someone to the object of decoration) Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Feb 24 15:14:15 1998 From: nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Nikhil Rao) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 10:14:15 -0500 Subject: Tamil words in English In-Reply-To: <19980220215208.25178.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227036089.23782.3582449258568846786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Coincidentally 49 generations are supposed to seperate "pravaras". This gap was stated probably by Baudhayana. Nikhil On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, S Krishna wrote: > 2. assuming they went to Tamil Nadu, how did iruGkOvEl come up with > figure of 49 generations? Is the genealogy recorded in any place? How > can you arrive at the number of generations elapsed without knowing the > genealogy? > > Dear MR Subrahmanya, I had asked you for references on Indians asser > ting that all languages are descended from Sanskrit and all I get > is assertions from you that they exist but no proof i.e. no text is > quoted..I wonder why?:-) > > Please give me a source that says: "Telugu, Tamil, Kannada,Malayalam > sarvE samskrtabhASAya: zizava:"( or a paraphrase there of) or some text > that says, ( pardon my poor Sanskrit/ versification/both) > > " yathA gajAnanaSaDAnanayO: gaurI jananI | > tathA telugukannaDayO : samskrt jananI ||" > > FYI, Monier Williams was the first one to postulate that all languages > are derived from Sanskrit( Monier Williams was a great *nationalist* > scholar, eh?...Arun Shourie assures us that his dictionary was compiled > to help missionaries translate the bible into samskrt)until > Alexander Campbell noted something contrary and the Dravidian theo > ry was postulated much later.... > > > IF kannaDa were really descended from Samskrt, then why is it that the > kavirAjamArga( 850 AD) tells us that "A compound consisting of kannaDa > and samskrt words is like putting a drop of buttermilk on boiling > milk"...the mother's milk is poison for the child, huh?:-) > > Regards > Krishna > > > Is an outright rejection valid ? > > All the original sources refer to only places within the > subcontinent > >and there > > never was any argument among pandits about some kind of origin from > some > >faraway > > lands - until the word Arya was bastardized and all kinds of racial > > connotations were ascribed to passages in the Vedas. > > > >I waited to see reactions to Edwin Bryants posting, but there doesnt > seem > >to be any.Could it be one of shock ? > >Now that Mr.Edwin Bryant has made his position clear, maybe some of the > vocal > >supporters of the AIT are thinking that the Invasion theory is not on > such a > >sure > >footing after all - especially now that a **non-Indian** (ignoring > >Mr.Jim Shafer, after all he is a mere archeologist) has said that > >THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF A ALTERNATIVE TO THE INVASION/MIGRATION > THEORY. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >No one knows what that alternative is, but atleast accepting that there > >might be an alternative > >is indeed a mighty positive change. > > > >The so called "evidence" for the Invasion theory has been built up over > >almost 150 years > >wheras the challenge to it from has come only within the past 15-20 > years > >and has become more organized only within the past decade or so. After > all, > >India gained independence only 50 years ago and time is needed to > discard > >old euro-centric colonial thinking. > >Atleast a beginning has been made. > > > >Again, at the end - the thing that started this discussion thread was > kuyil. > >Does anyone out there have an answer as to why it HAS to be of > >Dravidian origin ? anything else other than just assertions ? > > > >BTW,is the word for crow in Sanskrit, also of a supposed dravidian > origin ? > >coz after all a cuckoo depends on the crow for its survival. > > > >Subrahmanya > >Houston, TX > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Feb 24 10:03:37 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 11:03:37 +0100 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036064.23782.13059030688292763853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:40 24.02.98 +0530, you wrote: >I have taken the liberty of sending you a complimentary copy of >the desired article. > >I am now entitled to THE PUNYA and hope you will bestow your >grace leading me to MOKSHA. > >With warm personal regards, >Surya P. Mittal Dear Surya P. Mittal, thank you very much! The net is an invaluable source of information. As for the punya and the moksha, I can assure you that you will be recommended for INSTANT moksha as soon as I am able to talk to the right person! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Feb 24 10:25:02 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 12:25:02 +0200 Subject: Nisus 5.1 with Arabic Language Kit Message-ID: <161227036067.23782.1248116359698778303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Is there anyone out there who has used Nisus 5.1 with Indic fonts (such as Norman or South Asia Times), or with the Apple Arabic Language Kit, who would be willing to send me his/her comments on the compatibility of Nisus with these? We are discussing an upgrade, but I hope to ascertain in advance that I will not get any surprises when I try to use it with all my weird and wonderful fonts. Many thanks, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE Tue Feb 24 12:34:43 1998 From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 13:34:43 +0100 Subject: Books on Yantras In-Reply-To: <34F3263C.4393@4mis.com> Message-ID: <161227036071.23782.2870256976478789056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An obvious suggestion: Ernest G. McClain: The Myth of Invariance; The Origin of Gods, Mathematics and Music from the Rg Veda to Plato, Shambala Publications Inc. 1123 Spruce Street, Boulder, Colorado 80302. Distributed in the United States by Random House, in Canada by Random House of Canada Ltd and in the Commonwealth by Kegan Paul Ltd., London and Henly-on-Thames. Sincerely R. Martens From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 24 21:59:34 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 13:59:34 -0800 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036099.23782.14520694604171461150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote on behalf of Dmitry Olenev - > recently I learned a very curious fact from the preface to the >edition of "NyaayaalaMkaara" (Gaekwad Oriental Series, N169, 1981, p.XXII): >the real author of SarvadarzanasaMgraha was, perhaps, a certain nayayika >CannibhaTTa, and not Maadhavaacaarya. I think, there is no need to emphasize >the importance of the fact since SDS is one of the most popular sources on >Indian philosophy and its history. The author of the preface to the nyAyAlaMkAra is perhaps confused. The author of SDS specifically names himself as mAdhava, and he is also related to the famous sAyaNa - SrImat sAyaNadugdhAbdhi kaustubhena vipaScitA kriyate mAdhavAryeNa sarvadarSanasangrahaH. The first verse of SDS salutes one sarvajnavishNu - pAraM gataM sakaladarSanasAgarANAM AtmocitArthacaritArthitasarvalokaM | SArngapANitanayaM nikhilAgamajnaM sarvajnavishNugurumanvahamASraye'haM || Here, sarvajnavishNu is described as the son of one SArngapANi. In the section on advaita, SDS also quotes sarvajnavishNu's .rjuvivaraNa (a commentary on prakASAtman's vivaraNa), as follows - taduktaM vivaraNavivaraNe sahajasarvajnavishNubhaTTopAdhyAyaiH ..... In the .rjuvivaraNa, sarvajnavishNu is described as the son of janArdana and a disciple of svAmIndra pUjyapAda - iti SrI svamIndrapUjyapAdaSishya sarvaSAstraviSArada janArdanAtmaja sarvajnavishNubhattopAdhyAyak.rtau .... Probably, SArngapANi and janArdana are the same person, since the quotation from "vivaraNavivaraNa" in SDS is definitely from the .rjuvivaraNa. Another way to resolve this is to postulate that the sarvajnavishNu mentioned in the salutation (son of SArngapANi) is different from the sahajasarvajnavishNu (son of janArdana) described as the author of the vivaraNavivaraNa. sahajasarvajnavishNu is relevant to the problem because cennubhaTTa was his younger son. In cennubhaTTa's tarkabhAshA prakASikA, we have the following - SrI hariharamahArAjaparipAlitena sahajasarvajnavishNu devArAdhyatanUjena sarvajnAnujena cennubhaTTena viracitA. The king named here is most probably Harihara II of Vijayanagar. cennubhaTTa also gives his father's name in his commentary on the rAmasaundaryalaharI - SrIvishNudevArAdhyasya cennubhaTTo'yamAtmajaH rAmasaundaryalaharIkAvyaM vyAkhyAtumicchati. The relationship between sahajasarvajnavishNu (son of janArdana) and cennubhaTTa is clearly that of father and son. That between sarvajnavishNu (son of SArngapANi) and the author of SDS is that of guru and disciple. And if the words "sAyaNadugdhAbdhi kaustubha" from the SDS are to be accepted, mAdhava, the author of SDS, is the *son* of sAyaNa, although many modern scholars identify him with mAdhava, the *brother* of sAyaNa. mAdhava has further been identified with vidyAraNyasvAmin, the author of many advaita works. In either case, the author of SDS cannot be cennubhaTTa, who is not related to sAyaNa, as far as one can make out. However, there are still many unresolved questions about other things. 1. Was mAdhava, the author of SDS, the brother or the son of sAyaNa? 2. Was vidyAraNya the same as mAdhava, and if so, which one was he - son or brother of sAyaNa - or was he a completely different mAdhava? This has been debated back and forth for many years now, with no clear answers. 3. Was janArdana, the father of sarvajnavishNu, the same as janArdana, the author of a work named tarkasangraha? The latter has been identified with Anandagiri, the TIkAkAra of the advaita school. 4. An intriguing question, which I'm pretty sure nobody has asked before, is the name devArAdhya appended to sarvajnavishNu. Does it indicate that he belonged to the ArAdhya groups of brAhmaNas from Karnataka? The ArAdhyas revered Basava, and followed some vIraSaiva rituals, although they did not accept the extreme vIraSaiva rejection of the authority of the Vedas. Another ArAdhya author in the advaita school was mallanArAdhya, who wrote the advaitaratna, which has a commentary named tattvadIpana, written by n.rsimhASrama of bhedadhikkAra fame. The relationship between vIraSaivas and advaitins is relevant to the early history of Vijayanagar, as there is a legend that revANasiddha (one of the four siddhas of vIraSaiva tradition) appeared in a dream to harihara, and directed him to go to vidyAraNya. Some vIraSaivas also seek to identify vidyASankara, guru of vidyAraNya, with one kASIvilAsa kriyASakti, who is mentioned in early Vijayanagar inscriptions. S. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU Tue Feb 24 21:00:59 1998 From: sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU (Paul (Kekai) Manansala) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 14:00:59 -0700 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) In-Reply-To: <01ITX9G0XPUQ000L1J@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227036102.23782.13213627136830127791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > Jean Leopald, The Aryan theory of Race in India, 1876-1920. > Nationalist and Internationalist Views. > Indian Economic and Social History Review, 7, 2, June 1970. > > This volume is important because this was written much before > Indian theories with Out-of-India models started appearing. > > N. Ganesan > Also of interest: Maw, Martin, _Visions of India : fulfilment theology, the Aryan race theory & the work of British Protestant missionaries in Victorian India_, (Frankfurt am Main; New York: P. Lang, 1990). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue Feb 24 14:25:06 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 14:25:06 +0000 Subject: CSX fonts In-Reply-To: <01bd4123$4faf6f00$LocalHost@default> Message-ID: <161227036076.23782.11303420431938423117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daniel Baum wrote: > ... > > Under Linux, The Washington Indic fonts do not display the letter e-acute or > a-acute, either in their Truetype or Type 1 varieties. I have checked using > Character Map and its Linux equivalent (xfd). Xfd shows these letters to be > actually missing, while character map under W95 shows them to be there. This > is very bizarre, as the Truetype font is exactly the same file under both > operating systems. > > What I would really like to do is use xemacs, with a hypertext extension > called Hyperbole, and TeX. This will work very well if I can only get those > two letters to display in the Washington font. > > Does anyone have any idea what is going on? Not really. But it seems that what you want boils down to CSX fonts that will work in TeX. You might like to look at the collection of TeX virtual fonts, implementing CSX for both Computer Modern and various PostScript typefaces, that you can find by following the "fonts" link from the URL given below. I use these on a Linux system and they work fine. (There are also CSX PostScript and TrueType fonts using a Times-lookalike, in case these are of use.) John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 24 09:10:32 1998 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 14:40:32 +0530 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036059.23782.3087113985278020563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have taken the liberty of sending you a complimentary copy of the desired article. I am now entitled to THE PUNYA and hope you will bestow your grace leading me to MOKSHA. With warm personal regards, Surya P. Mittal surya at pobox.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053 A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067 Najafgarh Road E-mail: dka at pobox.com New Delhi - 110 059. E-mail: custserv at dkagencies.com Our Website : http://www.dkagencies.com Online Search : http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > At 15:12 23.02.98 -0600, you wrote: > >Jean Leopald, The Aryan theory of Race in India, 1876-1920. > >Nationalist and Internationalist Views. > >Indian Economic and Social History Review, 7, 2, June 1970. > > > >This volume is important because this was written much before > >Indian theories with Out-of-India models started appearing. > > > > Is there anybody out there with access to this article? I am pretty > certain that the University of Oslo does not have it, and I would > very much like to read it for a talk I am giving on March 4th. > > If anyone could send me a copy of the article - or fax it to me - I > would be eternally grateful, not to mention the punya that that > person would achieve (I think we are practically talking instant > moksha here!) > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo From msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Tue Feb 24 12:54:14 1998 From: msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Daniel Baum) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 14:54:14 +0200 Subject: CSX fonts Message-ID: <161227036074.23782.12668130232252395271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am trying to put together a suite of programs with which to write my doctoral thesis on Vedic linguistics. My computer is a Pentium II 233, and it has both Windows 95 (Hebrew version) and RedHat Linux 5.0. What I need to do is to use the Harvard electronic RigVeda, and the metrically restored version, which is in a kind of CSX coding, as well as a few other e-texts. I need to take examples from these and put them in a database, and thence into TeX, probably with Itrans, to do the actual writing at some time in the future. My problem is that I can't seem to find a font that works in all the programs I am trying to use, for whatever reason. I have tried converting all the texts to Titus coding under W95. This worked, up to a point. I could load the texts into a text editor, and export examples to the database. However on my system, for whatever reason, any paragraph which contains characters above ascii 224 won't print. In any case TeX etc. need the CSX coding, so I think this is probably not an option. Now, I have an unusual problem caused by the Hebrew Windows, in that some of the high characters appear as Hebrew in most programs. The exception to this are some simple text editors, but this probably means that I will have to work under Linux, which is my personal preference anyway. Under Linux, The Washington Indic fonts do not display the letter e-acute or a-acute, either in their Truetype or Type 1 varieties. I have checked using Character Map and its Linux equivalent (xfd). Xfd shows these letters to be actually missing, while character map under W95 shows them to be there. This is very bizarre, as the Truetype font is exactly the same file under both operating systems. What I would really like to do is use xemacs, with a hypertext extension called Hyperbole, and TeX. This will work very well if I can only get those two letters to display in the Washington font. Does anyone have any idea what is going on? Sorry for the length of this message, and thank you all very much, Daniel Baum, The Department of Linguistics, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel. From dkprint at 4MIS.COM Tue Feb 24 19:57:48 1998 From: dkprint at 4MIS.COM (DK Printworld) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 14:57:48 -0500 Subject: Books on Yantras Message-ID: <161227036062.23782.11364557827030545994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Can anybody advise me names of books (and details of their publishers) where I can find maximum diagrams of Yantras alongwith their descriptions and relevance with deities. Susheel K. Mittal for D.K. Printworld Dkprint at 4mis.com From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Tue Feb 24 15:00:42 1998 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 15:00:42 +0000 Subject: Hindi-Urdu echo-nouns in v In-Reply-To: <199802192307.AAA21838@grootstal.nijmegen.inter.nl.net> Message-ID: <161227036087.23782.7296905677681841662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From memory, I think Jan Gonda's early work _Sanskrit in Indonesia_ describes similar formations in SE Asian languages. In English we have 'toil and moil', 'fudge and mudge', but I don't know of others. (The well-known formations such as 'job schmob', modelled on Yiddish, have a different sort of meaning.) Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 24 16:30:20 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 16:30:20 +0000 Subject: Caldwell, Dravidian Linguistics (Was: : Tamil words in English) In-Reply-To: <01ITYAP1I95E000PH2@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227036092.23782.8679897855240649099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, FW Ellis is indeed a fascinating figure, and if there is actually surviving unpublished material on or about him, it would be very worthwhile to follow it up. I came across him some years back when I was writing a piece on the smallpox vaccination debates that were very topical in South India at the beginning of the nineteenth century. I would be extremely interested in any writings by Ellis on vaccination. I strongly suspect that he wrote pro-vaccination tracts, perhaps in Tamil and/or Sanskrit, but they have never been found. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Tue Feb 24 14:48:18 1998 From: msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Daniel Baum) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 16:48:18 +0200 Subject: CSX fonts Message-ID: <161227036081.23782.7926629900200108795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Thanks for your answer to my question. I actually forgot to mention in my last message that the Washington Indic .PK fonts work fine under TeX. But then TeX is a world unto itself anyway. I have actually solved the problem since I last wrote, purely by luck, by changing over to a different Windows 95 text editor (Ultra Edit). This can handle the Indic truetype fonts perfectly well. I should be able to use this encoding directly within TeX, if I have understood the Itrans documentation properly, and thus not have to rewrite about 2000 examples in my thesis. I would still not mind knowing why those characters were missing in Linux though. Thanks for your help, DB -----Original Message----- From: John Smith To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 4:32 PM Subject: Re: CSX fonts >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daniel Baum wrote: > >> ... >> >> Under Linux, The Washington Indic fonts do not display the letter e-acute or >> a-acute, either in their Truetype or Type 1 varieties. I have checked using >> Character Map and its Linux equivalent (xfd). Xfd shows these letters to be >> actually missing, while character map under W95 shows them to be there. This >> is very bizarre, as the Truetype font is exactly the same file under both >> operating systems. >> >> What I would really like to do is use xemacs, with a hypertext extension >> called Hyperbole, and TeX. This will work very well if I can only get those >> two letters to display in the Washington font. >> >> Does anyone have any idea what is going on? > >Not really. But it seems that what you want boils down to CSX fonts that >will work in TeX. You might like to look at the collection of TeX virtual >fonts, implementing CSX for both Computer Modern and various PostScript >typefaces, that you can find by following the "fonts" link from the URL >given below. I use these on a Linux system and they work fine. (There are >also CSX PostScript and TrueType fonts using a Times-lookalike, in case >these are of use.) > >John Smith > >-- >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html > From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Feb 25 01:00:54 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 17:00:54 -0800 Subject: CSX fonts In-Reply-To: <01bd4123$4faf6f00$LocalHost@default> Message-ID: <161227036104.23782.12653768731585273635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daniel Baum wrote: > What I need to do is to use the Harvard electronic RigVeda, and the > metrically restored version, which is in a kind of CSX coding, as well as a > few other e-texts. I need to take examples from these and put them in a > database, and thence into TeX, probably with Itrans, to do the actual > writing at some time in the future. The electronic Rig Veda you have is probably in the ITRANS encoding (unless you happen to have got it from someone who converted it to CSX). John Gardner did a lot of work in reconstructing the Harvard e-RV into the present ITRANS format. I took these files from his http://vedavid.org/ server and converted them to CSX. I have also gone through and edited the first two mandalas; adding missing portions, etc. using the Harvard RV hardcopy as the proof. These CSX versions of the RV are available in a ZIP'd archive from: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~apandey/texts/rv-new.zip Also, Avinash Sathaye has worked with Gardner's ITRANS files and added accents to the text. Preprocessing Sathaye's files with ITRANS and then running them through LaTeX will produce Devanagari text of the RV with the appropriate accents. I don't know if, or the extent to which Sathaye proofread the files before he added the accents, but I suspect he must have done a very thorough job. I don't know if these files are publically available. > My problem is that I can't seem to find a font that works in all the > programs I am trying to use, for whatever reason. If you mean that the diacritics won't appear when using CSX fonts, that might be because the texts you are working with are not in the CSX encoding. > Under Linux, The Washington Indic fonts do not display the letter e-acute or > a-acute, either in their Truetype or Type 1 varieties. I have checked using > Character Map and its Linux equivalent (xfd). Xfd shows these letters to be > actually missing, while character map under W95 shows them to be there. This > is very bizarre, as the Truetype font is exactly the same file under both > operating systems. The Washington Romanized Indic fonts are outdated. I've been working with the METAFONT (TeX) sources, modifying details of accent placement and character design. If you want to use a CSX-encoded font, then I suggest you turn to the Norman, CS-Utopia, or CS-Charter fonts. These are available in both TrueType and Postscript varieties from the INDOLOGY archive or from John Smith's site: ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/ These three TTF and PS fonts are much more aesthetically pleasing than the WNRI TTF and PS fonts. The WNRI TTF and PS fonts are rather crude versions which the developer, Thomas Ridgeway, threw together for users who wanted to use CSX in Windows. I believe this was before Dominik Wujastyk and Peter Schreiner adapted Adobe Utopia and Bitstream Charter for CS. I wish to snuff out the current TrueType and Postscript versions of WNRI and eventually replace them with newer ones based on the Computer Modern TTF and PS fonts. Also, if you intend to use a Romanized font for your dissertation, then you really ought to use a beautiful font; and for not having to write a check to a foundry, Utopia and Charter do the job quite well. The updated METAFONT sources for WNRI are available in the file wnri2e.zip from: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~apandey/texts/wnri2e.zip and within a few days from the Comprehensive TeX Archive Network (CTAN) in directory: ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/fonts/wnri/ OR ftp://ftp.dante.de/tex-archive/fonts/wnri/ Best of luck. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Feb 25 01:05:05 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 17:05:05 -0800 Subject: CSX fonts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036108.23782.11418395948857543849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Anshuman Pandey wrote: > WNRI TTF and PS fonts. The WNRI TTF and PS fonts are rather crude versions > which the developer, Thomas Ridgeway, threw together for users who wanted > to use CSX in Windows. I believe this was before Dominik Wujastyk and > Peter Schreiner adapted Adobe Utopia and Bitstream Charter for CS. I wish ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > to snuff out the current TrueType and Postscript versions of WNRI and > eventually replace them with newer ones based on the Computer Modern TTF > and PS fonts. Whoops! That should read: Dr. Peter Friedlander Regards, Anshuman Pandey From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 25 02:27:02 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 18:27:02 -0800 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036111.23782.9415562552818884177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>3. Was janArdana, the father of sarvajnavishNu, the same as janArdana, >>the author of a work named tarkasangraha? The latter has been identified >>with Anandagiri, the TIkAkAra of the advaita school. >> > >Is this tarkasangraha different from the famous tarkasangraha by >AnnambhaTTu. Quite different. annambhaTTa lived in the 17th century, and his tarkasangraha is a compendium of the nyAya-vaiSeshika school. janArdana's tarkasangraha is a *refutation* of vaiSeshika categories, along advaita lines. It has been published in the Gaekwad Oriental Series. And if janArdana was the father of sarvajnavishNu, and/or identical with Anandagiri, the TIkAkAra (the identification has been made by S. Kuppuswami Sastri), he must have lived in the 13th century, early 14th century at the latest. Both tarkasangraha-s are quite popular among traditional advaita circles, as a strong grounding in nyAya-vaiSeshika is deemed essential for students of mImAmsA and vedAnta. annambhaTTa's text is generally more well-known than janArdana's. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Tue Feb 24 18:12:36 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 19:12:36 +0100 Subject: Caldwell, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036096.23782.7132254450432225256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Dominik Wujastyk sagte : > Yes, FW Ellis is indeed a fascinating figure, and if there is actually > surviving unpublished material on or about him, it would be very > worthwhile to follow it up. I came across him some years back when I was I don't know about Ellis's work on pre-vaccination, but weren't all his manuscripts (and library) acquired by Walter Elliot posthumously? And later donated to Bodelain (sp?) library at Oxford? Regards, --Sreenivas From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Feb 24 19:44:22 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 20:44:22 +0100 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227036098.23782.15440125411282047753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If you were me, you wouldn't be you anymore. In which case you would not >possess the knowledge which enables *you* to write the above (because, >I, being me, can assure you that I don't possess it, or didn't, until I >read your message). From which it follows that you, being me, would have >no reason NOT to indicate that the publication in question might be >useful; from which we can conclude that, ESPECIALLY if you were me, you >would be more than likely to "recommend" this book :-) >Now, me being me, .... I realize this may be a complicated philosophical question, Birgit, but are you absolutely certain that YOU are YOU??? Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 03:30:06 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 22:30:06 -0500 Subject: Smoke and flower in Classical Tamil Message-ID: <161227036113.23782.3993502355003219136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The participation in this list yields unexpected insights. Sometime ago, as I was responding to a query on "curry", I noticed something interesting. As I researched it later, it gave an important insight into how Dravidians viewed flowers and smoke. In a Classical Tamil poem, we find the following: pUtta pukaiyum aviyum... (par 16.53) Here, "pukai" (smoke) is described by the past adjectival participle (pUtta) of the verb "pU" which is interpreted as "to spread (like flowers)". For this meaning of "pU", see V. S. Rajam?s "A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry", p. 551. Similar use of the verb "pU" is also found in other works like kamparAmAyaNam. The context gives the meaning for "pUtta pukai" as "smoke that spread". Since the nature of smoke is to spread, the connection between the verb and the noun is obvious and we can consider the possibility that the noun is indeed derived from the verb. But the verb has long "U" while the noun has short "u" in the radical position. We know that radical "u" elongates to "U" in contractions when a consonant following the radical vowel is lost and the derivative vowel is also a high vowel. This suggests that the original verb root describing the action of smoke is *puk- which is the same as the one in the verb base Ta. puku "to enter". One of the meanings Tamil Lexicon gives for "pukai" is "to begin to be spoken of or made public; to come out". Here we seem to have the aspects of emanating and spreading both commingled. This leads one to wonder if the word puku might refer to a transition from one state to another , i.e., not only entering from outside to inside but also emanating from inside to outside/spreading. The use of "pU" to describe the actions of smoke as well as flower also implies that the root for words referring to flower could also be *puk-. If the verb base is "puku", then "pukai" is a derived noun which is later used as a verb also. Compare the following: paku - to be split, divided pakai - hatred, to hate naku - to laugh nakai - laughter, to laugh puku - to enter / to emanate/spread pukai - smoke (that which spreads/comes out of any burning object), to smoke The verb "pU" is also used to describe smell as in the Classical Tamil poem puRanAn2URu 14 with the following lines: pulavu nARRatta paintaTi pUnARRatta pukai koLIi... (puR.14.12-14) Here the flesh-smelling meat piece is made to have the seasoning with spreading/emanating good smell (pU nARRatta). "pU" is used here as a non-past adjectival participle. Thus, if the word "pU" is ultimately derived from the root *puk-, then the idea that the original root in the word "pukai" is *pok- based on comparative evidence needs to be changed. According to P. S. Subrahmanyam (Dravidian Comparative Phonology, 1983, p.203) , "The following criteria will enable one to discover the original Proto-Dravidian vowel: (i) related word in which the root contains a short vowel and is followed by either no derivative element or one that begins with -i or -u; and (ii) a related word in which the root contains a long vowel or a double consonant (for this purpose it is immaterial whether or not such a root is followed by a derivative element beginning with a vowel (including a) because such a derivative element can have no influence on this type of root.)". P. S. S gives the following cognates for pukai. (DCP, 1983, p.208) "Ta. pukai ?smoke, mist, vapour, steam?; (-v-, -nt-) ?to smoke?; (-pp-, -tt-) ?to cause to smoke?; pukAr ?mist, fog, haze?. Ma. puka ?smoke, vapour?, pukay- ?to be darkened by smoke?; puke- ?to fumigate?. Ko. peg ?smoke?; pog, pO ?tobacco? (l.w.). To. pax ?smoke, tobacco?. Ka. poge, hoge ?to smoke?, n. ?smoke, steam, vapour?. KoD. poge ?smoke?. Tu. (C) puge. (B) poge; puge- ?to smoke; pugepu-pogepu- ?to fumigate?. Te, poga ?smoke, fume?; pogayu, povayu ?to smoke?; pogucu, pogacu, pogapu ?to season with spices?; pogapu, pogupu, pOpu ?seasoning?. Kol. Nk. Ga. (Oll.) pog ?smoke?. Ga. (S) pOgu. Go. (A) pOyA; (Mu) poy- ?to smoke? KonDa. pogo ?smoke?. Kui (K.) pOkari. Kuwi (Su.) bOyi, (P.) b~uy. (o and the long O in many CDr. languages indicate that they were original here. 3483)" On the other hand G. Sambasiva Rao (A Comparative Study of Dravidian Noun Derivatives , 1991, p. 34) shows the following. "Ta. puk-ai. Ma. puk-a, Ka. pog-e, Kod. pug-e, Tu. pug-e, Te. pog-a, Go. poy- a, po-e, pog-a, Kond. pog-o, Kuvi. bhoy-i, bo-i ?smoke? *puk-ay (3483)" In the above lists of cognates, 3483 refers to DED entry. Given the new evidence from Tamil with "pU" satisfying P.S. Subrahmanyam's condition (ii), the radical vowel root seems to be *-u- confirming G. Sambasiva Rao?s position. Regards S. Palaniappan From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Tue Feb 24 18:51:22 1998 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 03:51:22 +0900 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts; Sorry! Message-ID: <161227036138.23782.11517435837166540588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev wrote: > > I'm sorry, I mistook the book you recommended for another book by > Debiprasad Ch. Unfortunately, I don't remember its title (something > like "Lokayata: a study of Indian materialism"), but in any case it > had quite different title and been published very long ago, so long > ago that it was translated even into Russian :-)) > I read it in Russian and must admit that it made a bad impression... This is probably (data from the Library of Congress (at http://lcweb.loc.gov/z3950/gateway.html#lc): Author: Chattopadhyaya, Debiprasad. Title: Lokayata; a study in ancient Indian materialism. Published: [New Delhi] People's Pub. House [1959] (2nd ed. 1968) Just to add this, I didn't *recommend* the book I mentioned earlier at all; I simply suggested that it *might* be of use to somebody who was searching for Lokaayata-related materials. (Also, *that* book was published after Franco's "perception and disbelief", so I was actually curious how Franco could have referred to it, but that question seems to be answered now.) -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 25 01:43:37 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 06:43:37 +0500 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha In-Reply-To: <19980224215934.24953.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227036110.23782.3612362940042339453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:59 PM 2/24/98 PST, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >3. Was janArdana, the father of sarvajnavishNu, the same as janArdana, >the author of a work named tarkasangraha? The latter has been identified >with Anandagiri, the TIkAkAra of the advaita school. > Is this tarkasangraha different from the famous tarkasangraha by AnnambhaTTu. regards, sarma. From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 25 16:14:51 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 08:14:51 -0800 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036129.23782.5440419736185958141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The author starts with chArvAka and ends > with pata.njala yoga. Since nyAya is somewhere in the middle, it can > hardly have been written by a naiyAyika. Then, as I said, he says he > has explained advaita elsewhere. I cannot agree with this assertion; it's enough to remember a great naiyayika Raghunaatha Siroma.ni (or Vaacaspati Mi'sra) to understand the simple fact that it was well possible for Indian philosophers to be adepts of several traditions. Furthermore, nyaya is intellectual tradition, not spiritual, so I don't see any reasons for which a naiyayika couldn't be a vedantist, i. e. an adept of spiritual tradition. Yours, Dmitry Olenev _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Wed Feb 25 16:26:31 1998 From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 08:26:31 -0800 Subject: pu-/pU-/po- Message-ID: <161227036131.23782.7869459767206770884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: February 25, 1998 Indology List Another meaning of pu/pU/po has to do with praise, spreading the fame of someone. Thus in Tulu certain of the words spoken in ritual context are described as pugaranu, eulogizing the Spirit/God. The genre of oral literature, pADdana, "epic, ballad, song" is also often described as pugarunu, spreading the fame of the particular God. It is THE central act of much south Indian local (non- Brahman) [I dare say pre-Aryan?] ritual. The equivalent word for this genre in coastal Kannada is hogalikke, a noun form of the verb and having the same meaning and root. I have often thought this might be connected to the original term for worship in general, pUja. We have discussed the origin of this word on the LIST earlier, and I do not want to revisit that, but just to remind us in this context ... Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 25 16:27:05 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 08:27:05 -0800 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha; a passage from the preface Message-ID: <161227036132.23782.13350084292180885273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > The author of the preface to the nyAyAlaMkAra is perhaps confused. I don't think so; perhaps, you didn't read the preface, so I'm giving the relevant passage: ...But among the other Sa.mgraha works the Taarkikarak.saa of Varadaraaja along with his own commentary, the Saarasa.mgraha is the best of all as it faithfully presents the views of the traditional Nyaaya authors. This work, though published long ago, unfortunately did not receive the attention of scholars, which it richly deserves. I have consulted a manuscript of a commentary on it by CannibhaTTa and Raame'svara of Vijayanagara court. It shows that the Sarvadar'sanasa.mgraha, so far attributed to Maadhavaacaarya is really the contribution of CannibhaTTa himself... It remains to add, that there are no reasons to think that CannibhaTTa=CennubhaTTa. Or I'm mistaken? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Wed Feb 25 13:49:31 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 08:49:31 -0500 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036122.23782.18296415015571515230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: >The author of the preface to the nyAyAlaMkAra is perhaps confused. > >The author of SDS specifically names himself as mAdhava, and he is also >related to the famous sAyaNa - SrImat sAyaNadugdhAbdhi kaustubhena >vipaScitA kriyate mAdhavAryeNa sarvadarSanasangrahaH [ ... ] An excellent summary of the history of the SDS. I would like to add two more facts about the SDS: 1. The author also salutes vidyAsha.nkara, who was a pontiff of the Sringeri Mutt before bhAratI kR^ishhNa tIrtha, who was the predecessor of vidyAaNya (1386-139?). However the main guru of vidyAraNya is supposed to be vidyAsha.nkara. I am pretty sure that the author salutes vidyAsha.nkara. I'll check up in my copy today and correct this statement if necessary. 2. In the end of the SDS he says that he is omitting advaita since he has explained it elsewhere. These two facts will definitely rule out the possibility of a naiyAyika authorship. In fact, the structure of the book is something like this: darshana A, explanation of darshana A, and in the end objection to darshana A which is rectified by darshana B, then darshana B, it's explanation and finally it's defects which are rectified by darshana C, and so on and so forth. The author starts with chArvAka and ends with pata.njala yoga. Since nyAya is somewhere in the middle, it can hardly have been written by a naiyAyika. Then, as I said, he says he has explained advaita elsewhere. Another curious fact about the SDS is that it's explanation of the pUrva mImA.nsA is supposedly very terse and can be understood only by scholars of that field. Rama. From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 25 16:50:13 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 08:50:13 -0800 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts; Sorry! Message-ID: <161227036134.23782.3105518360127986318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---Birgit Kellner wrote: > If you were me, you wouldn't be you anymore. Are You sure? The lack of modal logic is real problem :-)) I'm sorry, I mistook the book you recommended for another book by Debiprasad Ch. Unfortunately, I don't remember its title (something like "Lokayata: a study of Indian materialism"), but in any case it had quite different title and been published very long ago, so long ago that it was translated even into Russian :-)) I read it in Russian and must admit that it made a bad impression... Yours, Dmitry Olenev _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Feb 25 15:30:13 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 09:30:13 -0600 Subject: linguistics (was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036124.23782.15383296279740763433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two more recent books: 1) Thomas R. Trautmann, Aryans and British India, Univ. of Calif. press, 1997 2) Dorothy M. Figueira, The exotic: a decadent quest. State univ. of NY, 1994 (origins of sanskrit studies in Europe, connexions between Indo-Germanism and National Socialism, politics of language and exoticism, relationship between Indian thought and Aryan ideology) N. Ganesan From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Wed Feb 25 09:43:11 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 09:43:11 +0000 Subject: CSX fonts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036118.23782.9143228385261083008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Anshuman Pandey wrote: > ... > The Washington Romanized Indic fonts are outdated. I've been working with > the METAFONT (TeX) sources, modifying details of accent placement and > character design. If you want to use a CSX-encoded font, then I suggest > you turn to the Norman, CS-Utopia, or CS-Charter fonts. These are > available in both TrueType and Postscript varieties from the INDOLOGY > archive or from John Smith's site: > > ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/ > Just a correction to the above (I think you need to take a break from Metafont and get more sleep, Anshuman!): the Norman encoding is completely diferent from CSX -- don't attempt to use it if CSX is what you're after. The site named above does contain CSX as well as Norman fonts, however. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Feb 25 15:44:43 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 09:44:43 -0600 Subject: Smoke and flower in Classical Tamil Message-ID: <161227036126.23782.5270341794248681721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:30 PM 2/24/98 EST, you wrote: > One of the meanings Tamil Lexicon gives >for "pukai" is "to begin to be spoken of or made public; to come out". Here we >seem to have the aspects of emanating and spreading both commingled. Just curious, that Hindi also has "pukaar". S.Subrahmanya Houston, TX From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Feb 25 16:56:56 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 10:56:56 -0600 Subject: pu-/pU-/po- Message-ID: <161227036136.23782.1684569501660469453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Dr. Claus, Hello from N. Ganesan Tulu pugaranu, Kannada hogalikke have Tamil cognates: pukal (to state, announce), pukazh (to praise) From barathi at PC.JARING.MY Wed Feb 25 03:38:13 1998 From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 11:38:13 +0800 Subject: Books on Yantras Message-ID: <161227036116.23782.8422533235499031377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:57 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Indologists, >Can anybody advise me names of books (and details of their publishers) >where I can find maximum diagrams of Yantras alongwith their >descriptions and relevance with deities. > >Susheel K. Mittal >for D.K. Printworld >Dkprint at 4mis.com Dear Susheel, The following are the books solely on yantras: 1. Mantra Mahodadhi of Mahidhara - (English translation) Sri SatGuru Publications, India Book Centre, 40/5,Shakti Nagar, Delhi-110 007. 2. Yantras S.K.Ramachandra Rao, Sri Satguru Publications....etc. 3. Practicals of Yantras - (487 diagrams) L.R.Chaudhury Sagar Publications, Ved Mansion 72, Janpath, New Delhi-110 001 4.The Theory and Practice of Mandalas Giuseppe tucci Ridder & Co, 3, Fitzroy Square, London W. 5. Mantra Mahodadhi (Original version) Khemraj. (Publisher unknown) Miscellaneous Notes on Malay Magic William Shaw Volume 18 (1973) Federation Museums Journal, Museum Negara, Kuala Lumpur. Malaysia. The above-mentioned source contains some yantras which are used by the Malays and Thais. There are several books in Tamil which deal directly with the subject., diagrams, prayoga, deity, etc. They are very comprehensive and straight to the point. It would need somebody to transcribe or translate. Some are from rare sources like the Siddhars. If you are interested I can post you the titles. I was feeling it would have been more appropriately posted into the RISA list, Hindu-net, or IJTS. Regards Jayabarathi > > From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Wed Feb 25 19:38:40 1998 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 11:38:40 -0800 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036140.23782.8615462008505609136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The information given by Rama Balasubramanian in his 25 Feb 1998 08:49:31 -0500 posting does not seem to be accurate in the following respects: >The author also salutes vidyAsha.nkara< and > In the end of the SDS he says that he is omitting advaita since he has explained it elsewhere.< I did not find a reference to Vidyaa-;sa:nkara. Also, in the editions I have access to, the SDS concludes with a fairly long section on ;Saa:nkara-dar;sana. As for the earlier post by Vidyasankar Sundaresan, it should be noted that his observations do not rule out the possibility that Canni-bha.t.ta/Cennu-bha.t.ta was the real author (of the entire SDS main text or a substantial part of it) and Saaya.na-maadhava was the editor or presenter of the final version (probably as the head of a committee of pa.n.ditas or as an appontee of the ruler). The Nyaayaala:nkaara Introduction is written by Prof. Anantlal Thakur, a scholar unlikely to write without careful thinking. His words are: "I have consulted a manuscript of a commentary on it [= Varada-raaja's Taarkika-rak.saa] by Cannibha.t.ta and Rame;svara of the Vijayanagara court. It shows that the Sarvadar;sanasa.mgraha, so far attributed to Maadhavaacaarya, is really the contribution of Cannibha.t.ta himself. This has been confirmed by a comparison of the Sarvadar;sanasa.mgraha with the commentary in question as well as with his Tarkabhaa.saaprakaa;sikaa." As I recall, Prof. Kunjunni Raja had come to the same conclusion as Professor Anantlal Thakur in an article published sometime after 1981 (I have access to a list of Kunjunni Raja's publications until 1981. I could not locate in it the article I was looking for. Hence my guess that it was probably published after 1981). From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Feb 25 20:15:10 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 14:15:10 -0600 Subject: Books on Yantras Message-ID: <161227036142.23782.5146808053743166998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanakkam, Dr. Jayabarathi, I am interested to know the books on yantras in tamil. May be, I can add a few to large collection of tamil titles that I have, about 70,000. Thanks, N. Ganesan From zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Wed Feb 25 13:25:05 1998 From: zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 14:25:05 +0100 Subject: Multimedia Hindi Message-ID: <161227036120.23782.18280427547655406011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here at Copenhagen University we would like to start a teaching archive of multimedia resources for Hindi language. Resources would include the following: 1. Interactive CD ROM's 2. Videotapes 3. Satellite access to Hindi Language TV 4. Good Language Cassette Tapes I should greatly appreciate any advice and suggestions about materials and where to obtain them (esp. if there is a web site). Many thanks in advance, Ken Zysk From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 25 23:25:44 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 15:25:44 -0800 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036148.23782.14341757173795879862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA wrote - > Also, in the editions I have access to, the SDS concludes with a fairly > long section on ;Saa:nkara-dar;sana. Yes, I thought so too. The quotation from sarvajnavishNu's .rjuvivaraNa is in the section on advaita. > As for the earlier post by Vidyasankar Sundaresan, it should be noted that > his observations do not rule out the possibility that Canni-bha.t.ta/Cennu-bha.t.ta was the real author (of the entire SDS > main text or a substantial > part of it) and Saaya.na-maadhava was the editor or presenter of the final > version (probably as the head of a committee of pa.n.ditas or as an > appontee of the ruler). Possibly. I'm unaware of any other works of mAdhava where he salutes sarvajnavishNu. Incidentally, I remember having read that the salutation verse pAraM gataM .... is also found in a commentary to another work of cennubhaTTa's. In any case, it is clear that sAyaNa, mAdhava and cennubhaTTa were contemporaries, and that sAyaNa/mAdhava acted as editors of other texts too, so cennubhaTTa's contribution cannot be ruled out. May be, a good way to look at the SDS is as an anthology, bringing together important extracts from different works. But it is odd that cennubhaTTa's name is nowhere mentioned in the SDS. >The Nyaayaala:nkaara Introduction is written by Prof. Anantlal Thakur, a > scholar unlikely to write without careful thinking. I don't mean to doubt Prof. Thakur's scholarship, but just want to point out that the traditional attribution of SDS to a mAdhava is not without its merits. The identity of this mAdhava is another question. Perhaps, mAdhava's authorship of the works attributed to him is like vyAsa's authorship of the purANas. But this raises the question, which works *did* sAyaNa and/or mAdhava compose? There is still a lot that remains to be sorted out. > His words are: "I have > consulted a manuscript of a commentary on it [= Varada-raaja's > Taarkika-rak.saa] by Cannibha.t.ta and Rame;svara of the Vijayanagara > court. It shows that the Sarvadar;sanasa.mgraha, so far attributed to > Maadhavaacaarya, is really the contribution of Cannibha.t.ta himself. This > has been confirmed by a comparison of the Sarvadar;sanasa.mgraha with the > commentary in question as well as with his Tarkabhaa.saaprakaa;sikaa." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This answers Dmitry Olenev's question regarding the name cannibhaTTa/cennubhaTTa. Obviously, both names refer to the same person, the author of the tarkabhAshAprakASikA. In the BORI editions of this work (1931 and 1979), his name is given as cinnaMbhaTTa. Re: Rama Balasubramanian's and Dmitry Olenev's remarks concerning naiyAyikas and vedAntins - I'm not convinced that one can classify all Indian authors into water-tight labels, like intellectual, spiritual, realist, idealist etc. Was somebody like vAcaspati miSra a realist naiyAyika or an idealist/illusionist/non-dualist vedAntin? He may have been one of the "four pillars" of nyAya, but what about his bhAmatI, which is the basis of an entire sub-school of advaita vedAnta? Somehow, the widely different isms of nyAya and vedAnta co-exist in the same person, not to forget other isms from his texts on mImAMsA, yoga and sAMkhya. Focussing on one aspect/text does not do justice to the rest of his work. And if the tradition were not strong that he composed works in diverse fields, it may well be doubted if all the works attributed to vAcaspati miSra come from the same hand. appayya dIkshita is a similar personality from later times. It should also be remembered that advaitins like madhusUdana sarasvatI count udayana, a naiyAyika, as an AcArya in their own tradition. Besides, one finds naiyAyika sons of advaitin fathers (as in the case of cennubhaTTa and sarvajnavishNu), and other permutations with the six so-called Astika darSanas. Surely, generalizations are misleading. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From silk at WMICH.EDU Wed Feb 25 20:26:10 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 15:26:10 -0500 Subject: Nisus 5.1 with Arabic Language Kit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036143.23782.13875696311250649785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I use Nisus with Norman fonts/ CSX fonts/Japanese/Tibetan (although no Arabic), and in general it is OK, although I am becoming less and less happy with the failure of the company to fix bugs (like hyphenation problems), and various unnecessary things which clutter up the program. Still, search etc. is unbeatable. If you have 4.6, I would not upgrade to 5.1.1, unless you need to index footnotes etc. Also there are severe bugs with the way Japanese is treated! They claim they are working on a fix, but they have stopped answering my emails! Not a good sign (or perhaps just another sign that the Mac is on the way out!) More or less a dissatisfied user, but with few alternatives, Jonathan Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Feb 25 22:30:53 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 16:30:53 -0600 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227036145.23782.14116454995751598880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev wrote: > Could you give me more detailed information about the manuscript? >Was it published? Does there exist traslation of this text into any >european language? The Tamil lokayata text is published. In 1995, edited by S. Soundarapandian at Govt. Oriental Mss. Library, Madras. I must say that this edition contains many errors. Only the mss. at GOML is consulted, and NOT the one at Perur Adheenam. If both were seen together, the edition would have been much better. In general, the Govt. editions from GOML really are not upto high standards. For a long time, it is known that Kavichakravarti JayamkoNTaar wrote a vaLamaTal, known as kArAn2ai vizupparaiyan2 maTal. This is it. From this text, we can ascertain the birthplace of JayamkoNTaar who served in the court of Kulottunga Chola I. (1070-1120 AD) JayamkoNTaar composed this poem on behalf of his patron, Adhinaatan. The patron belonged to the family of Vizupparaiyar from the village of kArAn2ai. JayamkoNTaar hails from Deepangudi. Both kArAn2ai and Deppangudi are near Dindivanam in South Arcot district. Vizupparaiyar served Cholas as officials. JayamkoNTaar seems to have written this work in his early years, later introduced to the Chola King by Adhinaatan and composed the famous Kalingattup paraNi. There are only four vaLamaTals in tamil. Two tirumaTals by Tirumangai Alvar, vaLamaTal by JayamkoNTaar, kalimaTal by TattuvarAyar. In Alvar's maTals and kalimaTal, the male poet assumes the persona of a girl and pines to win love from Krishna, Narayana, Guru respectively. Being a Lokayata text, JayamkoNTar's work is the statement from a male and how 'kAmam' is a worthwhile pursuit. In the tamil interior landscape poetry convention (akam poetry), the lover's name should never be mentioned and girls' should not ride maTal, a mock-horse out of palmyrah blades. Only JayamkoNTaar maintains the ancient tradition. Both Tirumangai Alvar and TattuvarAyar (one of the first to write Advaita philosophy in tamil, 16th century) mention their lover's names, -Krishna, Narayana, Guru SvarUpAnanadar - for reasons of bhakti. These four vaLamaTals are the only texts in tamil that have the same etukai/prAsam throughout. In poetic beauty, JayamkoNTar wins all the other three works. Unfortunately, this vaLamaTal is not known widely yet. So, no translations exist. By the way, what century does tattvopaplavasi.mha belong to? Regards, N. Ganesan From shankars at SPRINT.CA Wed Feb 25 21:41:55 1998 From: shankars at SPRINT.CA (Sanjeev Shankar) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 16:41:55 -0500 Subject: Potala(ka) etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046925.23782.17743462618293988048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf > Of Narayan > S. Raja > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 10:20 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Potala(ka) etc > > > > > How about Sabarimalai? It fits the > description "GuangMing Shan" (shining mountain), > because one of its most famous features > is the "makara jyothi" (a divine light > or radiance which, devotees say, > can be seen from a nearby mountain). LAst year when I was in India I recall reading an article about Sabarimala which talked about the Buddhist past of Sabarimala ( and the geographic area now called Kerala). Regards Sanjeev > > Regards, > > > Raja. > > PS: I have no opinion regarding Potalaka's > location. I'm just mentioning another > candidate. > From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 26 01:47:28 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 17:47:28 -0800 Subject: Forms of "Dharmaguptaka" in inscriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036154.23782.14190955107503826367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Kharosthi inscriptions, Dharmaguptaka appears in the forms dha.mmagutaka- (Qunduz vase; also in a Brahmi ins. from Mathura, L:uders Mathura Inscriptions no. 150) and dhamautea- (Jamalgarhi; corrected reading by L:uders, AO 1940, pp.17ff.). (dhar*)mautaa- occurs in a potsherd ins., to be published in my book. And (dhar*)mautaka- appears in another potsherd published by Sadakata (JA 1996, pp.301ff). Another Brahmi ins. from Mathura is reported to read dharmaguptika (Shizutani p.131), but this has not be definitively published, as far as I know. All of these forms are usually found in the gen. pl., in formulaic phrases along the lines of "acaryana dha.mmagutakana parigrahe". That's the information I have, for what's it's worth. But I doubt that it will help much in solving the question of the origin of the name. RS > > Actually, I wonder what form the name takes in your inscriptions. As you > know, it is Dhamma-guttaa in the oldest literary source (Diip V 47). The > later accepted form is no doubt influenced by (probably later) stories of > the origin of the school from an eponymous founder: Dharma-gupta - no doubt > mythical. > > Lance Cousins, > Manchester > From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Feb 26 00:59:34 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 18:59:34 -0600 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036152.23782.18810802444833660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Aklujkar wrote about the authorship of the SDS: "...Saaya.na-maadhava was the editor or presenter of the final version (probably as the head of a committee of pa.n.ditas or as an appontee of the ruler)." I think this is as close as we can get at the moment in assessing the involvement of Saaya.na/Maadhava with the SDS. Prof. Aklujkar continued: ">As I recall, Prof. Kunjunni Raja had come to the same conclusion as Professor Anantlal Thakur in an article published sometime after 1981 (I have access to a list of Kunjunni Raja's publications until 1981. I could not locate in it the article I was looking for. Hence my guess that it was probably published after 1981)." Prof. Anantlal Thakur published an article "Cannibha.t.ta and the Authorship of the SDS," in The Adyar Library Bulletin 25, 1961, 524-538. I have not seen an article on this issue by Prof. Kunjunni Raja, if you find the reference, I am very much interested in it. Thank you. As for Zankaradarzana (the 16th chapter of the SDS), in Cowell and Gough's editions and translations that chapter is missing, including the 6th reprint of the translation of 1961. I have not checked the Chowkhamba editions past that year mentioned. In recent Indian editions of the SDS in Sanskrit, including the one from Anandasrama, the 16th chapter is included. I wonder why in some of those earlier editions the SDS ends with the Patanjala darsana and only mentions that Vedanta is dealt with elsewhere. If anyone knows where that elsewhere is/was, please share it with us. Also where did the 16th chapter come from in those editions and translations that have it? How do we know that it is identical with the "one elsewhere"? Edeltraud Harzer Clear Asian Studies UT at Austin, TX From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Thu Feb 26 06:24:51 1998 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 22:24:51 -0800 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha Message-ID: <161227036156.23782.10967885811055427138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:59 25-02-98, Edeltraud Harzer Clear wrote: >Prof. Anantlal Thakur published an article "Cannibha.t.ta and the Authorship of the SDS," in The Adyar Library Bulletin 25, 1961, 524-538. I have not seen an article on this issue by Prof. Kunjunni Raja, if you find the reference, I am very much interested in it. < Because Prof. Kunjunni Raja has been strongly associated with The Adyar Library Bulletin for a long period, it may be that I attributed the Thakur article to him by mistake. I will confirm by writing to Prof. Raja when I have time, but most probably your information is all that there is to the bibliography on the matter. Thanks for the precise reference. -- aklujkar From b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT Wed Feb 25 23:16:57 1998 From: b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT (Bruno Lo Turco) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 00:16:57 +0100 Subject: Oriental Research Institute Message-ID: <161227036150.23782.10482008677381137027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Is there anyone who knows the name and address of the Director of the Oriental Research Institute and Manuscript Library in Trivandrum? Many thanks, Bruno LoTurco b.loturco at agora.stm.it From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 06:34:37 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 01:34:37 -0500 Subject: pu-/pU-/po- Message-ID: <161227036158.23782.11919359988989374563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-02-25 11:24:07 EST, pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU writes: << Another meaning of pu/pU/po has to do with praise, spreading the fame of someone. Thus in Tulu certain of the words spoken in ritual context are described as pugaranu, eulogizing the Spirit/God. The genre of oral literature, pADdana, "epic, ballad, song" is also often described as pugarunu, spreading the fame of the particular God. It is THE central act of much south Indian local (non- Brahman) [I dare say pre-Aryan?] ritual. The equivalent word for this genre in coastal Kannada is hogalikke, a noun form of the verb and having the same meaning and root. I have often thought this might be connected to the original term for worship in general, pUja. We have discussed the origin of this word on the LIST earlier, and I do not want to revisit that, but just to remind us in this context ... >> Peter Claus has anticipated me. I was going to discuss the etymology of Ta. pukaz. However, I should thank him for reminding us of the discussion on "pUjA". In fact, the etymology for "pukaz" can also help to deal with the etymology for "pUjA" if IA specialists take up further analysis. Consider the following poem from a Tamil text called paripATal tiraTTu. taN tamiz vEli tamiznATTu akam ellAm nin2Ru nilaI pukaz pUttal allatu kun2Rutal uNTu O maturai koTi tErAn2 kun2Ram uNTAkum aLavu (pari. tir. 8) Here the action of "pukaz" (fame) is described as "pUttal" (spreading). From this, it is clear that this is also from the same root as pukai (smoke, vapor, incense) is, i.e., *puk- discussed in an earlier posting. Here "-az" is a suffix. (*pok- that has been accepted earlier by Comparative Dravidianists will have to be revised.) Compare Ta. kam-az from the root Ta. kam emitting fragrance. There are many instances in Classical/post-Classical Tamil texts where "pukai" referring to incense and "pU" referring to flowers are mentioned together as part of worship. pU um pukai um cAvakar pazicca (matu. 476) pU um pukai um pogkal um corintu (cil.5.69) pukai pU avi ArAtan2ai azal pala Enti (pari. 6.1) The worship itself is often described as praising the fame of the divinity. Often, the word used for praising is "paravu" which also has a basic meaning of spread/expand. See below. tEyA vizu pukaz teyvam paravutum (kalittokai 103.76) Translation: We praise the deity with non-diminishing excellent fame. Note the use of pukaz as verb and noun in the following poem. niRai avan2 pun2aloTu matiyum vaitta poRaiyavan2 pukaz avan2 pukaza nin2Ra maRai avan2 maRikaTal najncai uNTa iRaiyavan2 vaLa nakar iTaimarutE. (tevAram 1.110.6) Thus, one can see that the worship act was conceived of as one of praising the fame of the divinity both of which (praising and fame) have an underlying aspect of spreading/expanding. So, it is not a coincidence that they used pU and pukai in worship rituals. If they smeared anything such as blood or turmeric, one should note that the word for smearing "pUcu" can be a cognate of "puku" and "pukai" because smearing involves spreading something over another body. Thus all these different elements of the ritual act involving "pukaz" are linked by the root *puk- to spread. I have checked the earlier postings in Indology on the etymology of "pUjA". The etymological connections between "pU, pukai, pukaz, pUcu" revealed by Classical Tamil as shown here are not found in those postings. To go from *puk-u- to pUjA may need the joint effort of Dravidian and Indo- Aryan experts. **If** IA experts accept the equivalence of praising/worshipping found in Dravidian and honoring in IA, **and if** they look for possible Dravidian etymological possibilities, let me offer a tentative suggestion. The hypothetical form (similar in concept to Kannada "hogalikke" Peter Claus mentions) *puku-kai (where kai is a verbal noun suffix ) could mean "spreading" leading to a possible semantic development as "praising/worshipping". V. S. Rajam has discussed this suffix "kai"for Classical Tamil in "A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry", p. 697. (This can also be thought of as "k + ay" following G. Sambasiva Rao?s approach, since "ai" is not considered a PDr. phoneme.) The contraction of the base *puku- will result in *pU-. It is possible for intervocalic *-k- to become *-y- in some Dravidian languages such as Gondi, Kuwi, and Parji (Dravidian Comparative Phonology, p. 303). (Even in modern colloquial Tamil, pukaiyilai (tobacco) often becomes povayilai or pOyilai.) If the dialect from which this word was borrowed had such a reflex, it will give us *pUyai. Final Dravidian "ai" can become Sanskrit "A" as in Dr. kalai, mAlai > Sanskrit kalA, mAlA respectively. Intervocalic -y->-j- is found in some languages. **If all these changes occur**, we will have *pukukai > *pUkai > *pUyai > *pUyA> *pUjA. Only an IA specialist such as Michael Witzel who has studied the dialectal situations in Vedic will be able to decide, if these are possible. Regards S. Palaniappan From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Thu Feb 26 13:16:20 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 08:16:20 -0500 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036160.23782.12205047010278407096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aklujkar writes: >The information given by Rama Balasubramanian = > in his 25 Feb 1998 08:49:31 -0500 posting does not seem to be accurate in= > the following respects: >The author also salutes vidyAsha.nkara< and > In= > the end of the SDS he says that he is omitting advaita since he has= Yes I was mistaken. There is no verse saluting vidyAsha.nkara. I checked iit up yesterday. Sorry about that. > explained it elsewhere.< I did not find a reference to Vidyaa-;sa:nkara.= > Also, in the editions I have access to, the SDS concludes with a fairly= > long section on ;Saa:nkara-dar;sana.=20 In my book the last verse says that the crest jewel of all systems, namely the shA.nkara vedAnta is explained elsewhere and hence not explained here! This is very strange. I forget the name of the translator now, but it's a reprint by Motilal Banarsidas of an early 20th century translation by some European scholar. Anyway, the footnote by the translator says that the "elsewhere" probably refers to the pa.nchadashI. Rama. From rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM Thu Feb 26 13:35:17 1998 From: rama at HOMER.CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 08:35:17 -0500 Subject: Authorship of Sarvadarzanasamgraha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036162.23782.3567969182146038058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev writes: > The author starts with chArvAka and ends >> with pata.njala yoga. Since nyAya is somewhere in the middle, it can >> hardly have been written by a naiyAyika. Then, as I said, he says he >> has explained advaita elsewhere. > >I cannot agree with this assertion; it's enough to remember a great >naiyayika Raghunaatha Siroma.ni (or Vaacaspati Mi'sra) to understand >the simple fact that it was well possible for Indian philosophers to >be adepts of several traditions. Certainly I agree with that. But, it seems I have a different version of the sarvadarshanasa.ngraha than others! But, at least in my copy, the author follows this method of exposition. He points out some defect of darshana A and gives darshana B which removes that defect. But then he points out some defect in darshana B and gives darshana C and so on. The list (at least in my copy!) ends with yoga. nyAyA is much before that. And then of course (in my copy) he says the _crest jewel of all systems_, advaita, has been explained elsewhere by him! So you see why I thought the author must have been an advaitin. However, it seems there are multiple versions of the same text floating around. > Furthermore, nyaya is intellectual tradition, not spiritual, so I >don't see any reasons for which a naiyayika couldn't be a vedantist, >i. e. an adept of spiritual tradition. Not so. If you see the some jaina texts (of the sarva darshana sa.ngraha type), they describe the nyAya authors as pAshupata-s in practice. References can be found in Dasgupta's (Vol 5 I think, not sure). This is not a well known fact, but most nyAyA authors were pAshupatas in practice. Further, they do accept and worship Ishvara. So I fail to see why it is not "spiritual". Rama. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Feb 26 15:37:39 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 10:37:39 -0500 Subject: Doordarshan live on web: Uday Shankar Ballet Message-ID: <161227036163.23782.16225678101423065781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This notice is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from SARAI. -------------------- For your information, there is a wonderful full-video program of the Third Uday Shankar Ballet Festival (Jaipur, 1997) available on the web direct from Doordarshan (the Indian National Television Network). It is in three parts. As long as you have (or get) the free RealPlayer software, you can connect to the Doordarshan web page at http://ddindia.net Then just click on the button for "Real Video Broadcast", and you will be able to click an any of the three parts of the Uday Shankar Ballet program, to play the video stream on your computer. (If you just click on the Doordarshan icon in the little TV screen, you'll get their current live broadcast video stream of whatever is playing now in India). I've got this Doordarshan site linked in SARAI (the World Wide Web Virtual Library for South Asia), under the heading of "News Sources, Current Affairs, Mass Media of South Asia". Since Doordarshan is also going to be providing live up-to-minute web-broadcasts of coverage of the Indian elections (exit polls, results, analysis, etc.), I have also linked this site in SARAI along with several other sources of South Asian election information, on the subpage devoted to "Government and Politics of South Asia". SARAI is at: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai David Magier Columbia (editor of SARAI) From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Thu Feb 26 19:15:58 1998 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 14:15:58 -0500 Subject: Nisus 5.1 with Arabic Language Kit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036169.23782.16921409330759829389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since no on else besides Jonathan Silk has responded to this question, I will throw in my two bits, for what they're worth. I use Nisus 5.0.1 (not 5.1.1) with several language kits: Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Persian, and Hebrew, and as advertised it is clearly the best program for worldscript implementation. With Arabic and Persian you have three text-entry methods for each, two following typewriter keyboard patterns, and one using a 'transliterated' scheme. Nisus is smart, and will shift into the right language and direction by either selecting the keyboard or font, and it remembers, so that later visiting various parts of a documents it will automatically shift into the right language configuration, including font, keyboard, right-to-left vs. left-to-right, etc. Like Jonathan, however, I find NisusWriter itself to be over-wieldy, and sometimes downright arcane, so I primarily use it only for documents that are language intensive, and use other wordprocessors for most other tasks. The only advantage to upgrading to a 5.x version is that you will no longer have to worry about that annoying language key doohickey hardware that the earlier versions require to be installed on any computer while using Nisus. But it's a hefty price to pay if you already have a language key are aren't inconvenienced by using, for instance, both a home and an office computer and only having one language key. Take note, that at least in the version of 5.0.1 that I received, Nisus was no longer supplying Hebrew, Arabic, or Persian kits and fonts with Nisus Writer, so if you have language software from earlier versions, you'll still need them. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Feb 26 20:37:01 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 14:37:01 -0600 Subject: Q. Lokayata texts Message-ID: <161227036171.23782.5642578678112977382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The tamil text, aatinaatan2 vaLamaTal says in one place that the lokaayata is a friend of mahAvratin. Why is that lokAyatas and mahAvratins are friends? Any explanations? Thanks N. Ganesan From jkirk at MICRON.NET Thu Feb 26 23:51:00 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (Jo Kirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 16:51:00 -0700 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036173.23782.4649833097119250216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently I read that the so-called mystery plays of the middle ages in EU were not so called because they had something to do with "religious mysteries" but because they were staged by guilds called mystry or mystery. This rang a bell, as the term *mistri* in North India (I don't know if it also entered Dravidian languages) is usually glossed similarly to sense 2 below from the OED. I checked with the OED, which wrote that senses 2-4 were "probably confused with *maisterie*, MASTERY." Thus, senses 2 (and maybe 3?) under *mystery* accorded with the meaning of *mistri* in India and Bangladesh. (The OED also said that "In med. Latin *mistera* was a form commonly used with senses 2 & 3." That explains its use in connection with "mystery plays".) Sense 2: "Handicraft; craft, art. One's trade, profession, or calling." Sense 3: "A trade guild or company" Would some kind listmember inform as to how the term *mistri* entered into languages of the subcontinent. Thanks for any information, Joanna Kirkpatrick From jkirk at MICRON.NET Fri Feb 27 01:13:14 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (Jo Kirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 18:13:14 -0700 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036180.23782.394370562708755320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So did you mean to suggest that the word entered Telugu from English? What I hope to find out is how the word came into Indian languages, and from which probable language source (colonial, e.g. English, Portuguese, French? or.....?) JK ********************* The word appears to be derived most probably > from the word 'master' or 'mastery'. It is also used to indicate > an expert in a trade. Thus 'tApI mEstrI' stands for 'master mason'. > > regards, > > sarma. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 27 02:40:07 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 18:40:07 -0800 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036184.23782.4449455387395437988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jo Kirkpatrick says: > >So did you mean to suggest that the word entered Telugu from English? > >What I hope to find out is how the word came into Indian languages, and >from which probable language source (colonial, e.g. English, Portuguese, >French? or.....?) >JK >********************* The word is most certainly from English...the English word "master" becamed transformed into "mEstrI"..We have this on the word of Dr M.V.Raja Ramanna( the nuclear physicist) who discusses this while giving us the details of his genealogy in his autobiography..This seems to have occured sometime in the late 18th century.. Another word of similar origin is "sOjiri"( from English soldier).. tyAgarAja had a disciple called "sOjiri sitAramiya" who got the name because he was very hefty appearancewise and reminded the locals of the British soldiers.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 26 16:14:55 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 21:14:55 +0500 Subject: Astronomy in ViSNupurANa Message-ID: <161227036165.23782.7122357484306824834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> parAzarA is supposed to be one of the famous ancient astronomers. But in viSNupurANa he appears to believe that the Sun in addition to going round the zodaic once in an year, goes round the zodaic once in a day also as can be seen from the following verses in viSNupurANa. ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.45.(2) SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.46(1) But this could have been easily found to be incorrect by the observation at the time of a total solar eclipse. Thank you in advance for any elucidation of this. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 26 17:03:34 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 22:03:34 +0500 Subject: pu-/pU-/po- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036167.23782.8600325575136798727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:34 AM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: From >this, it is clear that this is also from the same root as pukai (smoke, vapor, >incense) is, i.e., *puk- discussed in an earlier posting. Here "-az" is a >suffix. (*pok- that has been accepted earlier by Comparative Dravidianists >will have to be revised.) Compare Ta. kam-az from the root Ta. kam emitting >fragrance. > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > In telugu we have one word which contains both kam- and pu-. kampu = bad smell In Telugu kam- appears to be associated with bad smell. kamuru vAsana = bad smell due to burning of oil or animal fat ( especially of animal fat). regards, sarma. From sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU Fri Feb 27 06:04:38 1998 From: sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU (Paul (Kekai) Manansala) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 23:04:38 -0700 Subject: Astronomy in ViSNupurANa In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980227120945.00687240@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227036189.23782.1607904960274028714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > At 09:14 PM 2/26/98 +0500, I wrote: > >parAzarA is supposed to be one of the famous ancient astronomers. > >But in viSNupurANa he appears to believe that the Sun in addition to going > >round the zodaic once in an year, goes round the zodaic once > >in a day also as can be seen from the following verses in viSNupurANa. > > > > ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.45.(2) > > SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.46(1) > > > >But this could have been easily found to be incorrect by the observation > >at the time of a total solar eclipse. > > > >Thank you in advance for any elucidation of this. > > > >regards, > > > >sarma. > > > > The sloka numbers are given wrongly. They should be > > ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.8.45.(2) > SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.8.46(1) > > Observation of the stars just after sunset also should convince one > that Sun does not go round the zodiac daily. Possibly it means the Sun goes around with the zodiac daily? Of course, this is also not quite correct as the Sun moves about a degree from one sunrise/sunset to another. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Fri Feb 27 03:24:09 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 04:24:09 +0100 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036186.23782.10455492117396125335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I do not know for certain. Given that French, Portuguese and Dutch were >there in South India for considerable periods, it could have been from >these languages also. I guess one has to dig. French is out since the `s' of that word had ceased to be pronounced long before the 18th century. One down, three to go. >The word is most certainly from English...the English word "master" >becamed transformed into "mEstrI" And is it usual for English long `ah' (the vowel of `master') to be borrowed as `E' in Telugu? Are there other examples of that? >Another word of similar origin is "sOjiri"( from English soldier).. >tyAgarAja had a disciple called "sOjiri sitAramiya" who got the name >because he was very hefty appearancewise and reminded the locals of the >British soldiers.... I'm curious why the long `I' in `mEstrI' and a short `i' in `sOjiri'? Also what's with the `r's? Were there lots of Scots in India? :) From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 27 01:10:01 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 06:10:01 +0500 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* In-Reply-To: <34F5FFE4.42F0@micron.net> Message-ID: <161227036178.23782.9220339793494114029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:51 PM 2/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >Recently I read that the so-called mystery plays of the middle ages in >EU were not so called because they had something to do with "religious >mysteries" but because they were staged by guilds called mystry or >mystery. This rang a bell, as the term *mistri* in North India (I don't >know if it also entered Dravidian languages) is usually glossed >similarly to sense 2 below from the OED. > >I checked with the OED, which wrote that senses 2-4 were "probably >confused with *maisterie*, MASTERY." Thus, senses 2 (and maybe 3?) under >*mystery* accorded with the meaning of *mistri* in India and Bangladesh. >(The OED also said that "In med. Latin *mistera* was a form commonly >used with senses 2 & 3." That explains its use in connection with >"mystery plays".) >Sense 2: "Handicraft; craft, art. One's trade, profession, or calling." >Sense 3: "A trade guild or company" > >Would some kind listmember inform as to how the term *mistri* entered >into languages of the subcontinent. > >Thanks for any information, > >Joanna Kirkpatrick > > In telugu the word that is used is 'mEstrI'. The word is used to indicate a person who is the leader of a group of labourers who are engaged to do a particular job.(For example construction job or quarrying etc.) The word appears to be derived most probably from the word 'master' or 'mastery'. It is also used to indicate an expert in a trade. Thus 'tApI mEstrI' stands for 'master mason'. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 27 02:23:55 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 07:23:55 +0500 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* In-Reply-To: <34F6132A.74DD@micron.net> Message-ID: <161227036182.23782.14684937952775431746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:13 PM 2/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >So did you mean to suggest that the word entered Telugu from English? > >What I hope to find out is how the word came into Indian languages, and >from which probable language source (colonial, e.g. English, Portuguese, >French? or.....?) >JK I do not know for certain. Given that French, Portuguese and Dutch were there in South India for considerable periods, it could have been from these languages also. I guess one has to dig. regards, sarma. From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Fri Feb 27 13:49:27 1998 From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 07:49:27 -0600 Subject: Astronomy in ViSNupurANa Message-ID: <161227036206.23782.2140071429994371129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >At 09:14 PM 2/26/98 +0500, I wrote: >>parAzarA is supposed to be one of the famous ancient astronomers. >>But in viSNupurANa he appears to believe that the Sun in addition to going >>round the zodaic once in an year, goes round the zodaic once >>in a day also as can be seen from the following verses in viSNupurANa. >> >> ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.45.(2) >> SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.46(1) >> >>But this could have been easily found to be incorrect by the observation >>at the time of a total solar eclipse. >> >>Thank you in advance for any elucidation of this. >> >>regards, >> >>sarma. >> > >The sloka numbers are given wrongly. They should be > > ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.8.45.(2) > SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.8.46(1) > >Observation of the stars just after sunset also should convince one >that Sun does not go round the zodiac daily. > >regards, > >sarma > There is a very simple explanation of this statement. Please refer to VP (1. 3. 10): ayanam dakSiNam rAtrirdevAnAm uttaram dinam The ahorAtra referred (2.8.45-6) is the ahoratra of the devAs, which corresponds to one year of the mAnavAs. Hence the sun progresses through all the rAzi s in one ahorAtra. It is unfortunate that sometimes the statements are misunderstood and comments about the incapability of simple observations by ancient Indian astronomers are hurled. Pingree swears that Indian astronomers were not interested in making the simplest of observations. regards, Narahari Achar From thompson at JLC.NET Fri Feb 27 12:52:39 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 08:52:39 -0400 Subject: Indo-Aryan invasion Message-ID: <161227036209.23782.17521136353506850204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the post of Erik Seldeslachts: [snip] > of the ancient Near-East are the first and most clearly attested of those >emigrants from India, but they are not the only ones. By the way, there >are still out-of-India people living among us, viz. the Gypsies. Of course >there migration started much later, but under the comparable conditions of >the economic crisis of the 5th-6th century A.D.> Interesting. But I see things quite differently. I interpret the Mitanni texts as evidence rather that the Aryans *hadn't reached* the Indian sub-continent yet. Or otherwise that these people, whose language is Indic rather than Indo-Iranian, turned west instead of east [a lost tribe?], and *never made it* to the sub-continent. >On the other hand it is perfectly possible to reconcile this picture with an >into-India model, which in any case seems also inevitable on linguistic >and othergrounds. The reason why archeologically and genetically nothing >is found of an intrusion of Indo-Aryans in India may simply be that one is >not looking in the right period. I believe - and this is also what Renfrew >proposes - the intrusion of Indo-Aryans has to be pushed much further back >in time, at least to the 4th millennium BC, but possibly even much further >back.> I agree that one might not be looking at the right period. If we are going to revise the dates, say, of the RV, I would recommend revising upward: in my view the RV may well be contemporary with Avestan and as late or even later than 1000 BCE. In my view, Renfrew is uttterly wrong [very ignorant about things Vedic]. And I cannot see how any possible 'intrusion' in the 4th millennium BCE can have anything at all to do with Vedic Aryans. I see the RV as best understood as an Indo-Iranian text, and the culture area out of which it came as an Indo-Iranian culture area. >The weakness of the traditional Indo-Aryan invasion model lies precisely in the >fact that the arguments are maybe partially right in se but do not tally with a >number of findings about the period envisaged for that invasion. I have the >impression that more and more researchers, also in the West, begin to feel very >uneasy about the fact that every fact known about ancient India is pressed into >the straitjacket of a theory that has brought no new insights in the past >century. This researcher, a Vedicist not a historian, calls this model the "Aryan migration thesis", and I do not see it as a straitjacket at all. The only revision that I would recommend, besides the later dating, would be to abandon the images of war-like Aryans on horses and war-chariots, which I agree were conjured up by the lurid imagination of a previous generation of scholars. In my view, which comes from studying the RV, these Aryans did not march into the sub-continent. They drifted in, in small waves. And the vehicle that they rode in on was not so much the chariot as the mantra. But who know? Perhaps my imagination is rather lurid too. Best wishes, George Thompson From jkirk at MICRON.NET Fri Feb 27 16:49:32 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (Jo Kirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 09:49:32 -0700 Subject: Term -mistri Message-ID: <161227036218.23782.11398745884418660077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to both Royce Wiles, who sent me the post below, and S. Krishna, who said on the List that the word derives from English and cites a source. Apparently source is not entirely definitive, although I'd be tempted to give priority to the Dictionary entry. Joanna Kirkpatrick ************************* Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...> > Full citation: > > The Oxford Hindi-English dictionary / edited by R. S. McGregor. Oxford : > OUP, 1997. > > mistrI appears on p. 814, column b, fifth word down > > The full entry is brief, no indication of source or dates in this dictionary: > > mistrI [Portuguese mestre], m. a skilled tradesman; mechanic -- > mistarI-khAnA m. workshop > > Glad to be of help. From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Fri Feb 27 08:57:08 1998 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 09:57:08 +0100 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036191.23782.7690161520401193774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jo Kirkpatrick wrote: > >What I hope to find out is how the word came into Indian languages, and >from which probable language source (colonial, e.g. English, Portuguese, >French? or.....?) >JK George Clifford Whitworth?s "An Anglo-Indian Dictionary", Kegan Paul, Trench & Co., London 1885, reprinted by IDS, Gurgaon/New Delhi 1976 gives the following definition (p. 207, s.v. Mistry): "Mistry. [A corruption of mister, or of the French maistre.] A head smith or head armourer, or head workman of any kind. The word is also used among Europeans and their servants to designate the cook." My pennorth. Regards, Jan Filipsky From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Feb 27 13:11:45 1998 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 10:11:45 -0300 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036204.23782.1281747422522138585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Would some kind listmember inform as to how the term *mistri* entered >>into languages of the subcontinent. > >R. W. McGregor in his wonderful Oxford Hindi-English dictionary gives a >Portuguese word (mestre) as the basis for the Hindi word, you may like to >contact him for the source of that etymology. >>> Indeed the Portuguese * mestre* was quite in use during the XV and XVIth centuries meaning the "master "or "maistre"of some craft, often in the shipping and civil and military construction arts. It's use became later on restrict to the educational area where it was synonim for "teacher" and nowdays it's just honorific. I believe the Hindi "mistri" does indeed come from the Portuguese during their early times in India.. JC > From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Fri Feb 27 10:49:24 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 11:49:24 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan invasion Message-ID: <161227036194.23782.3288347899472901473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > I suspect that the Aryan "invasion" occurred because > the Indus culture became weakened by the ecological catastrophy that seems > to have hit it and was unable to fend off intruders. Compare the influx of > Germanic tribes in the Western Roman empire in the fifth and sixth centuries > CE. Germans had been present in Rome for centuries before they were able to > ravage the area. Why should the Indo-Aryans have been so keen on entering an ecologically and economically ruined but still overcrowded country like that of the Sindhu/Sarasvati? In this there is no comparison with the Roman empire of the fifth and sixth centuries, which was still economically attractive to all kinds of intruders. More likely, the local population would have migrated away in several directions. In that way there is ample scope for an out of India model, not of Indo-Europeans of course, but of the Indo-Aryan population of the Sarasvati area. The Indo-Aryans of the ancient Near-East are the first and most clearly attested of those emigrants from India, but they are not the only ones. By the way, there are still out-of-India people living among us, viz. the Gypsies. Of course there migration started much later, but under the comparable conditions of the economic crisis of the 5th-6th century A.D. On the other hand it is perfectly possible to reconcile this picture with an into-India model, which in any case seems also inevitable on linguistic and other grounds. The reason why archeologically and genetically nothing is found of an intrusion of Indo-Aryans in India may simply be that one is not looking in the right period. I believe - and this is also what Renfrew proposes - the intrusion of Indo-Aryans has to be pushed much further back in time, at least to the 4th millennium BC, but possibly even much further back. The weakness of the traditional Indo-Aryan invasion model lies precisely in the fact that the arguments are maybe partially right in se but do not tally with a number of findings about the period envisaged for that invasion. I have the impression that more and more researchers, also in the West, begin to feel very uneasy about the fact that every fact known about ancient India is pressed into the straitjacket of a theory that has brought no new insights in the past century. Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent Belgium From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Feb 27 00:51:38 1998 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 11:51:38 +1100 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036175.23782.14946310894013336158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Would some kind listmember inform as to how the term *mistri* entered >into languages of the subcontinent. R. W. McGregor in his wonderful Oxford Hindi-English dictionary gives a Portuguese word (mestre) as the basis for the Hindi word, you may like to contact him for the source of that etymology. From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Feb 27 00:57:40 1998 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 11:57:40 +1100 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036177.23782.16675047257285051909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Would some kind listmember inform as to how the term *mistri* entered >>into languages of the subcontinent. > >R. W. McGregor in his wonderful Oxford Hindi-English dictionary gives a >Portuguese word (mestre) as the basis for the Hindi word, you may like to >contact him for the source of that etymology. Sorry that should be R. S. McGregor. Royce Wiles Asian History Centre Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Office +61 02 6279 8853 Fax +61 02 6279 8326 Home +61 02 6258 5134 Mobile +61 0411 287 569 email Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Fri Feb 27 20:01:09 1998 From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:01:09 -0800 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036224.23782.14010342537543927617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is it mEstrI or mE.s.trI (ie. retroflex 's' and 't') and if not, why not? From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 27 07:09:45 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:09:45 +0500 Subject: Astronomy in ViSNupurANa In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980226211455.006c6cd4@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227036187.23782.3695610433089442280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:14 PM 2/26/98 +0500, I wrote: >parAzarA is supposed to be one of the famous ancient astronomers. >But in viSNupurANa he appears to believe that the Sun in addition to going >round the zodaic once in an year, goes round the zodaic once >in a day also as can be seen from the following verses in viSNupurANa. > > ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.45.(2) > SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.46(1) > >But this could have been easily found to be incorrect by the observation >at the time of a total solar eclipse. > >Thank you in advance for any elucidation of this. > >regards, > >sarma. > The sloka numbers are given wrongly. They should be ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.8.45.(2) SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.8.46(1) Observation of the stars just after sunset also should convince one that Sun does not go round the zodiac daily. regards, sarma. From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Fri Feb 27 10:35:13 1998 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof P Kumar) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:35:13 +0200 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036193.23782.3811444585273564454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Jo Kirkpatrick wrote: >> >>What I hope to find out is how the word came into Indian languages, and >>from which probable language source (colonial, e.g. English, Portuguese, >>French? or.....?) >>JK I just want to add or supplement to the points that have already been made by pointing out that in South Africa "Mistri" "Maistrie" ( spelled in different ways) currently exists as a family name among some Gujarati and Hindi speaking families. This certainly has to do with the colonial context and most likely it came via English. Pratap From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 27 12:45:52 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:45:52 +0000 Subject: Introducing Academy of Sanskrit Research (fwd) Message-ID: <161227036198.23782.10791740132156646476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:50:30 +0530 (IST) From: Academy of Sanskrit Research Subject: Introducing Academy of Sanskrit Research Academy of Sanskrit Research Melkote - 571 431 Karnataka, India Tel:(0821)38741,38781(O) 38742? Around 60 kilometers north-east of Mysore city in the State of Karnataka is to be found a hilly tract comprising some of the oldest rock formations on the earths crust. Nestling in the heart of these hills lies the temple town of Melkote. The origins of the town ae lost in antiquity, but it rose to cultural and religious importance in the 12th AD when the great South Indian philosopher and teacher, Sri Ramanuja lived in the town for twelve years. Today life in Melkote revolves around the Cheluvanarayanaswamy temple within the township and the Yoganarasimhaswamy temple on the hill overlooking Melkote. These temples are repositories of Melkotes living tradition as well as storehouses of academic knowledge of our culture. Thus, as part of the temple precincts is the oldest Sanskrit Pathashala in India, dating back to 1853, imparting regular instruction in Sanskrit and Indian philosophy. One of the best-preserved towns, Melkote is unique in that it has retained its traditional character over the centuries. Historical studies have shown relatively little change in the plan of the town, the type and character of dwellings and its cultural practices.in this sense, a visit to Melkote or Tirunarayanapuram (as it is also called) is a unique experience of our own cultural heritage in its living form. The essence of Indian philosophical as well as religious thought comes alive in the temples of Melkote where the temple rituals and festivals involve many, if not most of the towns population. Some of the more important annual festivals such as the Vairamudi Utsava, Teppotsava and the birthday or Tirunakshatram celebrations of importand saints are occasions which bring all the people of the town together. Indeed Melkote is unique in that certain fold festivals such as the Angamani festival have been integrated into the temple rituals, thus making them meaningful to the common man. It is a matter of general serious concern in India that with the rapid pace of social and economic change, our ancient wisdom and culture is in danger of being lost. The increasing impact of the mass media as the main source of knowledge and entertainment is likely to further contribute to this and the next generation may well lose contact completely with the well springs of our past. The Academy of Sanskrit Research was set up in Melkote in 1978 with the specific aim of promoting serious acholarship in Indian philosophy, particularly the Vedantic systems, by seeking to blend modern research methods with the traditional approach to these subjects. As an additional aim, the Academy also intends to embark on a systematic programme for making specific areas of Indian philosophy more accessible to the layman and in general promoting a serious awareness of our culture to all those whoa may be interested in it, but lack guidance in this respect. Thus the Academy intends to link the invaluable knowledge contained in our ancient texts to the contexts of modern living and also use this as a foundation for suggesting ways and means of meeting the social dominate societies of the futute. Set in a beautiful, sylvan campus of 14 acres at the Southern end of Melkote town, the Academy has re-created a gurukula like atmosphere for its 20 full-time traditional and modern research scholars who are also training 22 external students of the Academy. A library with over 2f2,000 volumes is a part of the facilities. Palm-leaf manuscripts are being collected, listed and scientifically preserved. Research work includes the kriya project where, in a fully equipped computer lab, work is being done on developing Sanskrit as a natural language for semantic processing. 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We would request you to kindly write to us immediately with your acceptance of any of the schemes above, and we will respond very soon with a complete listing of our services. Please also indicate in your letter your special areas of interest in Indian philosophy and culture. This information of your interest areas will be recorded by us in our contrubutor database at the Academy, thus allowing us provide our services to you with your preferences in mind. Your values support is more necessary than ever to help the Academy carry out it s important mission. All contributions to the Academy may kindly be made our by cheque or bank draft in fvour of the Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote.please also note that such contributins are exempt from Income Tax under Section 35(1)(iii) of the Income Tax Act,1961. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 27 12:46:48 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:46:48 +0000 Subject: Melkote ASR Seminar on Taittireyopanisad Message-ID: <161227036200.23782.12445983239061011359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:53:43 +0530 (IST) From: Academy of Sanskrit Research Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote 571 431 Vol. 9 October-December 1997 No.4 Seminar on Taittireyopanisad Academy organised a Seminar on Taittireyopanisad on 18.11.97 and 19.11.97 in the premises of Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Advanced Scientific Research, Bangalore. Prof. M.A.Lakshmithathachar in his welcome speech gave a brief account of the various activities of the Academy especially its role in bringing together the traditional Pundits and modern Scientists on a common platform. Noted Scientist Prof. Roddam Narasimha, Director, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, inagurating the seminar said how one can easily learn Sanskrit by remaining in any corner of the world in this advanced age of Science and Technology and especially in the field of Electronics, Computers, Networking and Communication. Speaking on Taittireyopanisad he said that the eternal principles such as student-teacher relationship, the discipline, ethics and the code of conduct, knowledge and experiences as explained in the Upanisads still speak to a large number of people even today with such a clarity, dignity and magic and lead them in the right path. Sri M.A.S.Rajan in the course of his Presidential remarks said that essentially the work carried out in the Academy is the preparation of Sanskrit research material, such as critical editions, word encyclopedias, bibliographies, and so on, as to attend to their printing and publication. Undoubtedly the field of Sanskrit or Kannada publication was not virgin territory. So, one of the first concerns was to eschew imitation and redundancy. Ensuring scholarly excellence was another strong requirement. Publications were chosen with great care, with an eye on the gaps in existing scholarly literature. By and large, outstanding commentaries not widely known, were utilized. The Academys encyclopedias and directories are entirely new, and fill a known lacuna in scholarly literature. He went on to add that mention of the word research usually calls to mind the most common and dramatic kind of research, namely scientific research. Since not all topics, taken from the scriptures, are amenable to scientific examination-nation, one needs to be selective and pick up topics which deal with phenomena and material objects but not the texts which are based on intuitive experience? This is an issue that needs to be given deep thought before choosing topics of study. Concluding, he felt that one point seemed to be clear. Each of the domains such as Scientific or Philosophic has a frontier and those from either side looking across the frontier, have to do so with a certain regard for the erudition and integrity of those on the other side. Dr. N.S.Anantha Rangachar in his keynote address gave a detailed description on the contents, structure and the greatness of the Upanisad and its relevance to the modern age. Apart from the scholars of the Academy many other scholars participated in the Seminar and presented papers. Following were the papers presented in the seminar : 1. Panditaratnam K.S.Varadacharya - Message of the Taittireyopanisad 2. Dr. N.S.Anantha Rangachar - Siksavalli A study 3. Prof. M.A.Lakshmithathachar & Dr.M.A. Jayashree -The five sheaths in Taittireyopanisad 4. Vidvan N.K. Srinivasa Iyengar - Taittireyopanisad & Shanti Pata 5. Dr. P.Narasimhan - Satyam Jnanam Anantam Brahma 6. Vidvan S.Narasaraja Bhattar - Sribhasya and Taittireyopanisad 7. Vidvan S.Narayana - Taittireyopanisad - Text and its commentaries 8. Vidvan M.A.Alwar- Puccha Brahmavada 9. Vidvan B.V.Ramapriya - Bhoktr Bhogya sahitya vicara 10. Vidvan V.Sowmyanarayanan - Brahman as blissful (Ananda Meemamsa as explained in Bhagavadvisayam) On 19.11.1997 in the Valedictory Session Prof. B.V.Sreekantan, Radhakrishna Visiting Professor, NIAS, while delivering his valedictory address spoke on Consciousness in Upanisads. Sri B.K.Bhattacharya, IAS., Chief Secretary Government of Karnataka in his presidential remarks beautifully brought out the impact of the upanisads on the lives of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Ravindranath Tagore and also mentioned about the insights he got, with regard to the intuitive and mystic experiences of the Upanisadic seers. H.H.Rangapriya Swamiji blessed the audience and the organisers of the seminar. A Short Term Course on Vedanta in day to day life was organised by the Academy from October 25th to 29th in Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Advanced Research, Bangalore. This was inagurated by H.H.Rangapriya Swami with the lighting of a lamp, the jnana depa. Swamiji in his first lecture showered his blessings on the audience, who were from all walks of life both men and women, students, working and retired professionals. Before stepping into the field of Vedanta every seeker of knowledge should try to find the answer to the question `Who am I?. Answering this question he said every individual is not merely the physical body but also the individual soul inhabiting and controlling the body. Further he has also the inner soul or the Lord who is all pervasive. The initial response ignited by Sri Swamiji was followed by the enlightening lectures of several scholars of profundity, who kept intact the zeal and enthusiasm- of the participants throughout the course. Sri Sri Sri Rangapriya Swamiji in his first lecture impressed upon the audience of knowing ones own self before venturing into the field of Vedanta. Smt. Rama Srinivasan dealing with the topics matter and conscious principles briefly described the theory of evolution according to Vedanta and said every individual soul is not only of the nature of consciousness but also possesses consciousness as its attribute. The individual soul should strive hard to overcome restrictions caused by this material body and attain its natural state she said. Dr. N.S.Anantha Rangachar speaking on the Eruvaratattva tattva - the controller of matter and soul said that this supreme self is devoid of all inauspicious qualities and a repository of all auspicious qualities and the individual soul should surrender unto him for his emancipation. Dr. P.B.Vidyarthi, (philosopher) of Ranchi explained the purpose of life and said physical pursuits and spiritual pursuits are not opposed to each other; On the other hand they go hand in hand. Professor M.A. Lakshmithathachar in his lecture vividly brought out that ones own enjoyment derived by offering services to the Lord may also become an obstacle in offering such services. While offering such services to the Lord absolute selflessness is a must he said. Dr. S.M.S.Chari and Prof. Bhuvarahacharya Swamiji spoke about the fundamental Vedantic texts in Sanskrit and Tamil respectively and explained concept of Ubhayavedanta. Vidvan N.Viraraghavacharya from Chennai in his lecture on the final emancipation said that offering services with the one and the only goal of pleasing the Lord, Parartha Kainkarya is the summum bonum of Vedanta. He quoted ample instances to show how Alwars and Acharyas had brought into practice all the Vedantic teachings in their day to day life. Vidvan M.A.Alwar spoke on Karma, free will and destiny, and Varnasrama Dharma. On 29.10.1997 H.H. Harshananda Swamiji presided over the Valedictory function while blessing the participants he stressed the need of such courses to rejuvenate the society and said that many of the vedantic messages can easily be incorporated in our day to day life. Prof. K.T. Pandurangi in his valedictory address lauded the efforts of the Director in arranging such useful courses. Workshop on Manuscriptology & Paleography A workshop was organised jointly by Indira Gandhi National Centre for Arts and Oriental Research Institute, Mysore University Campus. The Director of the Academy, Prof. M.A. Lakshmithathachar was invited as a resource person. In his lecture cum demonstration he mentioned how Sanskrit could play a vital role in the field of computer science. For instance, the compression techniques found in the soutra works, the operating system used in the meemamsa system, sangatis explained in the purva and the uttara meemamsa systems could be of much use to the computer scientists. Similarly computers could also render invaluable service in the field of Sanskrit as it could show the practical application of the grammatical rules without any flaw. In the usage of words in a sentence, semantic analysis etc. the application of the rules of Paninian grammar, the rules of semantic analysis could be done more efficiently by the computer than by the learned pundits he said. Later he gave a detailed account of the Sabdabodha Project undertaken by the Academy, which was followed by the demo of various software, developed- under this project. Many of the scholars in the audience expressed their eagerness to undergo training in the field of Sanskrit and computers after listening to the lecture. Sri S.Narayana and Sri S.Krishnan, Research Scholars of the Academy attended the work-shop from 27.11.97 to 17.12.97. The workshop proved to be very useful as the scholars working in various fields of Sanskrit were introduced to ancient scripts like Sarada, Grantha, etc. Participants in the workshop also visited the Academy and acquainted themselves with the activities of the Academy. Seminar on The Vedic base of Tantra Sastras Vidvan Sri S.Narasaraja Bhattar, scholar of the Academy participated in the seminar on The Vedic base of Tantra Sastras between 27.11.97 29.11.97, conducted jointly by Maharshi Sandipani Rashtriya Veda Vidya Pratishthan, ujjain and Akhila Bharatiya Sanskrit Parishat at Lucknow. He presented his paper on The validity of Pancharatra Agamas Demo at Kannada Ganaka Parishat, Mysore Sri R.Sudhakar, Computer Programmer, ASR, attended the inaugural function of Kannada Ganaka Parishat at Mysore, on 19.10.1997 and presented a demo of latest software developed by ASR especially the Kannada software for generation and identification of the nominal and verbal forms in Kannada. Guest Lectures At the invitation of the Academy Dr. Kapil Kapoor, Dean, School of languages, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi, delivered lectures on the Structure of Astadyayi, the Paninian grammar. He explained about the processing system of the Paninian grammar to derive a verbal form from its root. Speaking on what Sanskrit grammar can do for computers he said as the computational linguists are in need of a particular kind of grammar, which must be formal, algorithmic, explicit, rule-bound and exhaustive, it is only the Paninian grammar which comes to this expectations. Later going through the softwares developed by the Academy he expressed his willingness to associate himself with the activities of the Academy in whatever manner possible. Directors Programmes a) A seminar Ramanuja and Melkote was organised under the auspices of Yadugiri Yatiraja Mutt at Chennai in connection with the 80th year celebrations of H.H Yadugiri Yatiraja Jeeyar swamiji. Speaking on the subject Prof. M.A.Lakshmithathachar said there is an inseparable connection between Sri Ramanuja and Melkote. Without Sri Ramanuja Melkote would have ceased to be a Jnanamantapa, the abode of knowledge. Sri Ramanuja was responsible for the renovation of Melkote Temple and organising the worship of Lord Tirunarayana in accordance with Eruvarasamhita. Considering the role played by Melkote in reviving Divyaprabandha tradition and also the feeling of Nammalwar towards Lord Tirunarayana Sri Ramanujacharya dedicated the decade Orunayakamai to Lord Tirunarayana at Melkote. Sri Ramanuja lived for 12 years in Melkote and propagated his philosophy, Visistadvaita after vanquishing all his opponents in scholarly debates. At this place he prayed to Lord Tirunarayana to restore Srirangam to its original glory as the centre of Srivaisnavism. For these reasons Melkote is also called the place of victory of Sri Ramanuja or Samyami Sarvabhauma Vijayasthana by Vedantadesika. b) Refresher Course Department of Sanskrit Studies in Kuvempu University, Shimoga organised a UGC sponsored Refresher Course in Sanskrit for Sanskrit lecturers from 8th to 31st October 1997. Prof. Lakshmithathachar inaugurated the course at Sahyadri College campus, Shimoga. In his speech, he urged the participants to infuse self confidence in learners of Sanskrit and tell them that they should be proud to learn Sanskrit, a storehouse of knowledge. Most of the times Sanskrit pundits are very much depressed because they dont have social recognition like other professionals. There is no reason for this inferiority complex, as Sanskrit has a world of know-ledge in it and it can contribute to all the fields of studies. c) Gita Jayanti Samiti of Chikkaballapur organised Gita Jayanti for a period of one month in connection with their golden jubilee celebrations. Prof. M.A.Lakshmithathachar was invited to deliver a lecture on the Message of Bhagavadgita, on 18.12.1997. In his lecture he brought out the significance of the first and the last chapters of Bhagavadgita and said everyone should follow Arjuna and surrender oneself unto the Lord. When there is confusion with regard to right and wrong, Lord Krishna the charioteer of Arjuna will also be the charioteer of each and every soul and lead him in the proper direction. Those who neglect the inner voice of the Lord will be doomed to destruction. Once the individual soul accepts Him as his charioteer he should stop backseat driving. Dignitaries visit Prof. K.T.Pandurangi, Kulapati, Poorna Prajna Vidyapeeta & Vice President, Dvaita Vedanta Research Foundation, Bangalore, and Sri Narasimha Rau, former Chief Secretary, Government of Karnataka and the present Chairman of the foundation visited the Academy on 11.12.1997. Going through the Academys activities and its output they lauded the efforts of the founders of the institution who strived hard in creating the institution. Prof. K.T.Pandurangi said that he could feel that Sanskrit is still alive here, but not the same when he visited other Sanskrit institutions. It was the opinion of the visiting dignitaries that both the Academy and the Dvaita Vedanta Research Foundation must interact more and more towards achieving certain common aims and goals and thereby rejunevating the cultural heritage of our country. c) Nupura - Navaba Nandini Nupura, an organisation specialising in dance ballets on various themes like Srikrishna Parijata, Deva Kannika and so on, organised Navaba Nandini, a dance drama based on the theme of Bibi Nachiyar, a muslim princess falling in divine love with Selvapillai, the procession deity of Melkote, on 27.12.97. The performance was remarkable for its depiction of sarasa, viraha and other rasas connected with the theme. Prof. Lakshmithathachar who was invited as the Chief Guest of the function, said that the story is an allegory of the individual soul yearing for the union with the Lord. He suggested Nupura to choreograph a dance ballet on the life of Ramanuja based on Ramanuja Asupadi, a composition written in the style of Gita Govinda. d) Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan (RSS), New Delhi nominated Prof. Lakshmithathachar as an expert member of a committee constructed for the purpose of automation of several RSS centres. Automating the RSS Centres, Examinations, Academic activities etc. were discussed in the meeting held on 10.11.97. Academy thanks the following individuals for their kind gesture. * Sri Vilas M.Vaidya, New York $100 * Mrs. Vijaya Pandit, USA 10,000-00 * Sri S.Lokanathan, Satyamangalam 5,000-00 * Sri M.S.Chaktravarthi, Bangalore 2,001-00 * Sri C.S.Rangaswamy, Bangalore 1,000-00 * Smt. Alamela Venkataraman, Bangalore 501-00 * Sri C.S.Venugopal, Bangalore 500-00 * Others 605-00 Local programmes Tiruppavai Upanyasams As a part of Alwar Divya Prabandham Project, T.T. Devasthanams, Tirupati organised a month long Tiruppavai discourse in Andavan Ashramam, Melkote. In the course of his lecture Prof. Lakshmithathachar said that the message of Tiruppavai which is nothing but the essence of all vedas and the upanisads must be presented in a way to facilitate the adoption of the same by everybody irrespective of caste and creed. Hayagrivaradhana As in the previous years, this year also the worship of Lord Hayagreva, presiding deity of learning, was performed on 6.10.97 in the premises of the Academy. Staff and citizens of Melkote participated and received the blessings of Lord Hayagreva. Tulasi P?ja On the day of Uthana Dvadasi (12.11.97) the staff of ASR organised Tulasi P?ja at the Academy campus. Book Exhibition Janapada Seva Trust, Melkote organised its annual book exhibition called Bharati from 21-11-97 to 24.11.97. Prof. Lakshmithathachar inagurated the exhibition. He appreciated the efforts of Sri Surendra Koulagi, Secretary of the Trust in inculcating reading habit among the citizens of Melkote, particularly children. He said that knowledge is available at the doorsteps of every reader due to the advent of modern printing technology. But utilisation of this opportunity lies with the readers. Vidvan Umakantha Bhatta, Pundit, Sanskrit College, Melkote who spoke on the occasion described how, in ancient times, books were revered. Referring to the importance of books he said Acharya Ramanuja who went all the way to Kashmir to refer to Bodhayana Vritti grantha to write his great commentary on Brahmasutras viz. Sribhasya. Vedic learning for the modern age - Visistadvaita vedanta goes Hitech computers in operation to spread the message of the Vedanta. A library having collection of books not available any where else in India and a faculty carrying on the work of Ramanuja in a manner he would have blessed and admired. Only Prof. M.A Lakshmithathachar can gift this type of a project to the world of Hindu philosophy. May his tribe increase. T.C.A. Ramanujam Former Chief Commissioner of Income Tax, Chennai. A Great service to preserve the Sanskrit language. All Indians are proud of Prof. Lakshmithathachar and the Academy. We pray for all success for this esteemed institution. K. Jyoti Kumaran Hon. Secretary Indian Hockey Federation Annanagar (E), Chennai. A massive effort to revive our ancient language and culture. It is indeed awe inspiring. Calls for substancial support from the urban elite. N.Sivaraman Centre Manager, IIT Study circle, 15th Main Road, RMV Extension, Bangalore. My friends and I visited the Academy today. My present visit was after about two decades after my previous one. I was delighted to see the progress made during this period under the guidance and leadership of Sri Lakshmithathachar. The garden reminds one of the ancient ashramas. The Academy itself has the latest equipment and has been rendering excellent service to the cause of Philosophy and Vedanta. I wish the Academy a bright future. N.Narasimha Rau Former Chief Secretary, Goa & Chairman, Dvaita vedanta Study and Research Foundation, Bangalore. Thank you for your gracious hospitality. I am extremely impressed with the wonderful resources and the great spirit of scholarship and good will that I find here. Best wishes. Leslie Orr Associate Professor Department of Religion Concordia University Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I am both deeply moved and deeply honored to have been here and to have seen this place, the garden, the texts, the good people here. Thank you for your generous hospitality. Steven P.Hopkins Assistant Professor Department to Religion Swarthmore College Swarthmore, PA 1908. Additions to the Library During the last quarter 748 valuable books were added to the library. Out of which 20 books were purchased and the remaining 728 books were received as donations from the well wishers. Some important titles are listed below; 1. Srivaisnava Samhita Vol.I-III (Eng) by Krishnapremi Maharaj, 1992-94, Akhila Bharata Sadhu Sangha, Bombay 2. Jaina Dharma by Rajendramuni Shastri (Hin), University Publication, New Delhi, 1996, Rs.600/- 3. Sugama Hindi Jnanesvari by Santa Jnanesvar, Sahitya Academy, New Delhi, 1996, Rs.250/- 4. Samaveda Samhita: Text with English Translation by Griffith RTH, Parimal Publication, Delhi, 1996, Rs.450/- 5. Vaidikatva in Indian Philosophy and Religion (Eng) by Mudgal SG, Aarsh Shodha Samsthan, Gandhinagar, 1996, Rs.90/- 6. Hamare Purvaj (Hin) by Harith DP, Harith Sahitya Prakashana, New Delhi, 1997, Rs.225/- 7. Advaitabodhaviveka (Skt) by Digambara Mahapathra, MVVV Vidyapeetha, Gaziabad, 1992, Rs.25/- 8. Post Independence Sanskrit Epics (Eng) by Ranganath S, Eastern Book Linkers, Delhi, 1996, Rs.300/- 9. Srimad Visnu Bhakti Kalpa Lata (Hin) Padmashree KB, Pitambar Publication, New Delhi, 1995, Rs.46/- 10. Art & Science of Sadhana : Meditation (Eng) by Virajeswara Swami, Cave Temple, Bangalore, 1996, Rs.3/- 11. Kavya Kiranavali (Skt) by R.K.Mishra, Meerut, 1994, Rs.80/- 12. Keeta Bh?ng?rcikam (Hin), by Triveni Prasad T, Triveni Prasad Tripathi, Jounpur, 1996, Rs. 50/- 13. Rgvedadasagrantha (Rgveda Samhita) (Skt) by Vinayakasharma, Veda Patashala, Punyapatnam 411004, 1986, Rs.200/- 14. The Scientific Approach of Shankara Vedanta by Gangolli D.B, Adhyatma Prakashana Karyalaya, Holenarasipur, 1997, Rs.30/- 15. Tatvadepa, ASR, Journal, Jan-June-1994 V (1) 94 Ed. by K.S. Narayanachar, ASR, Melkote, 1997/- Rs.40/- 16. Ravana Bhasyam (Hin), edited by Sudhir Kumar Gupta, Bharati Mandir, Jaipur, 1967, Rs.15/- 17. A Constructive Survey of Upanisadic Philosophy by Ranade, Bharateeya Vidyabhavan, Bombay, 1968, Rs.20/- 18. Bharateeya Samskrita Kosha, (Marathi), edited by Mahadevashastri Joshi. * * * * From sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Fri Feb 27 13:00:01 1998 From: sreeni at KTPSP2.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 14:00:01 +0100 Subject: Availability of 3 books Message-ID: <161227036202.23782.12778837505266446786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! apologies in advance for posting a personal query! Could someone please tell me about the availability of following three titles in India (and/or eventually elsewhere), preferably as Paper-Backs: Krishna Chaitanya: Sanskrit Poetics-A critical and comparative Study Friedhelm Hardy: Viraha Bhakti (OUP, 1980) and N.R. Acharya: Subhaashita_ratna_bhaanDaara (NSP, 1978) What about _Hist. of Sanskrit Poetics_ by P.V.Kane and S.K.De (2 separate books!)? Or, are there any better works than the aforementioned ones in the past ~20 years? Thanks in advance! Regards, --Sreenivas From msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Fri Feb 27 12:14:05 1998 From: msdbaum at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Daniel Baum) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 14:14:05 +0200 Subject: CSX fonts Message-ID: <161227036196.23782.14427586696280316053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Thanks to all for your help with my problem. Although I have solved it to my satisfaction, there are still a couple of things I don't understand; I downloaded the Times-CSX font as suggested, and it almost works with the Harvard Rigveda, except that the acute-e appears to be missing. How come these fonts appear to have characters missing? The solution in the end was to use the Washington Indic truetype font as a screen font, and then compile the document in TeX using the Washington Indic PK font. Surprisingly the two fonts are coded slightly differently; the a-acute is in a different place. I simply programmed a macro in my text editor to do a search and replace before I compile the TeX file, and another afterwards. I will definitely have a look at the alternative TeX fonts you suggested, although I've never used .vf fonts before; is there anything I should know before I start? Thanks again, Daniel Baum -----Original Message----- From: Anshuman Pandey To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 3:01 AM Subject: Re: CSX fonts >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Daniel Baum wrote: > >> What I need to do is to use the Harvard electronic RigVeda, and the >> metrically restored version, which is in a kind of CSX coding, as well as a >> few other e-texts. I need to take examples from these and put them in a >> database, and thence into TeX, probably with Itrans, to do the actual >> writing at some time in the future. > >The electronic Rig Veda you have is probably in the ITRANS encoding >(unless you happen to have got it from someone who converted it to CSX). >John Gardner did a lot of work in reconstructing the Harvard e-RV into the >present ITRANS format. I took these files from his http://vedavid.org/ >server and converted them to CSX. I have also gone through and edited the >first two mandalas; adding missing portions, etc. using the Harvard RV >hardcopy as the proof. > >These CSX versions of the RV are available in a ZIP'd archive from: > > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~apandey/texts/rv-new.zip > >Also, Avinash Sathaye has worked with Gardner's ITRANS files and added >accents to the text. Preprocessing Sathaye's files with ITRANS and then >running them through LaTeX will produce Devanagari text of the RV with the >appropriate accents. I don't know if, or the extent to which Sathaye >proofread the files before he added the accents, but I suspect he must >have done a very thorough job. I don't know if these files are publically >available. > >> My problem is that I can't seem to find a font that works in all the >> programs I am trying to use, for whatever reason. > >If you mean that the diacritics won't appear when using CSX fonts, that >might be because the texts you are working with are not in the CSX >encoding. > >> Under Linux, The Washington Indic fonts do not display the letter e-acute or >> a-acute, either in their Truetype or Type 1 varieties. I have checked using >> Character Map and its Linux equivalent (xfd). Xfd shows these letters to be >> actually missing, while character map under W95 shows them to be there. This >> is very bizarre, as the Truetype font is exactly the same file under both >> operating systems. > >The Washington Romanized Indic fonts are outdated. I've been working with >the METAFONT (TeX) sources, modifying details of accent placement and >character design. If you want to use a CSX-encoded font, then I suggest >you turn to the Norman, CS-Utopia, or CS-Charter fonts. These are >available in both TrueType and Postscript varieties from the INDOLOGY >archive or from John Smith's site: > > ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/ > >These three TTF and PS fonts are much more aesthetically pleasing than the >WNRI TTF and PS fonts. The WNRI TTF and PS fonts are rather crude versions >which the developer, Thomas Ridgeway, threw together for users who wanted >to use CSX in Windows. I believe this was before Dominik Wujastyk and >Peter Schreiner adapted Adobe Utopia and Bitstream Charter for CS. I wish >to snuff out the current TrueType and Postscript versions of WNRI and >eventually replace them with newer ones based on the Computer Modern TTF >and PS fonts. > >Also, if you intend to use a Romanized font for your dissertation, then >you really ought to use a beautiful font; and for not having to write a >check to a foundry, Utopia and Charter do the job quite well. > >The updated METAFONT sources for WNRI are available in the file wnri2e.zip >from: > > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~apandey/texts/wnri2e.zip > >and within a few days from the Comprehensive TeX Archive Network (CTAN) in >directory: > > ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/fonts/wnri/ OR > ftp://ftp.dante.de/tex-archive/fonts/wnri/ > > >Best of luck. > >Regards, >Anshuman Pandey > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Feb 27 14:29:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 15:29:50 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan invasion Message-ID: <161227036211.23782.14103135267617904642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:49 27.02.98 +0100, you wrote: >Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >> I suspect that the Aryan "invasion" occurred because >> the Indus culture became weakened by the ecological catastrophy that seems >> to have hit it and was unable to fend off intruders. Compare the influx of >> Germanic tribes in the Western Roman empire in the fifth and sixth centuries >> CE. Germans had been present in Rome for centuries before they were able to >> ravage the area. E. Seldeschlachts wrote: >Why should the Indo-Aryans have been so keen on entering an ecologically and >economically ruined but still overcrowded country like that of the >Sindhu/Sarasvati? In this there is no comparison with the Roman empire of the >fifth and sixth centuries, which was still economically attractive to all kinds of >intruders. I suggest that you take a look at a book called "Mohammed, Charlemagne & The Origins of Europe". It deals with the late Roman empire and argues that both the economy and the population took a battering for various reasons, leading among other things to a depopulation of the Roman countryside and to a reduction in the size of Roman cities. This in turn opened up parts of the old R. E. to the barbarians from the North (but in the end also to the Arabs). Of course, there is a discussion on the Late R. E. going on, and not everybody will agree that depopulation played a role. A military historian argues that Rome "fell" because the Romans lost their superior military qualities. The point of the Sindhu/Sarasvati region is that we don't know exactly how attractive it was to the Indo-Aryans. They may still have found lots of interesting things there, or perhaps in the areas beyond those that had been most damaged by the hydrological upheavals. My point is that the balance of power may have tipped, just as it did in the Western Roman Empire, giving the Aryans an edge. By the way, if we are talking about a real invasion, armies move quickly and cover a lot of territory without leaving archaeological traces behind them. >More likely, the local population would have migrated away in several directions. >In that way there is ample scope for an out of India model, not of Indo-Europeans >of course, but of the Indo-Aryan population of the Sarasvati area. The Indo-Aryans >of the ancient Near-East are the first and most clearly attested of those >emigrants from India, but they are not the only ones. By the way, there are still >out-of-India people living among us, viz. the Gypsies. Of course there migration >started much later, but under the comparable conditions of the economic crisis of >the 5th-6th century A.D. I am very happy you that mention the gypsies, because they are really an out-of-India case, and they show all the features you would expect in such a situation: Their language has clearly Indian features. Even the come-down version of a gypsy language like the "tater" language of Norway still have Indian words that are recognisable as such. In addition to that, the gypsies have cultural features that are recognizable Indian - after having left India about 1400 years ago! As for the Iranians, there are no traces of anything Indian to the best of my knowledge. >On the other hand it is perfectly possible to reconcile this picture with an >into-India model, which in any case seems also inevitable on linguistic and other >grounds. The reason why archeologically and genetically nothing is found of an >intrusion of Indo-Aryans in India may simply be that one is not looking in the >right period. Ah well, the genetic argument again. I think I shall have to quote something. I refer to the magnum opus on the genetics of the world by Cavalli-Sforza called "The History and Geography of Human Genes". Princeton University Press 1994. Summing up the population movements in India the book says: "1. The first component (Australoid or Veddoid) is an older substrate of Paleolithic occupants, perhaps represented today by a few tribals, but probably almost extinct or largely covered by successive waves and presumably leaving no linguistic relics, except perhaps for the Hunza and Nahali. There seems to be no linguistic trace of the Australoid-Negrito language but Andamanese speak languages of the Indo-Pacific family. This may or may not be their original language. 2. The second is a major migration from Western Iran that began in early Neolithic times and consisted of the spread of early farmers of the eastern horn of the Fertile Crescent. These people were responsible for most of the genetic background of India; they were Caucasoid and most probably spoke proto-Dravidian languages. These languages are now confined mostly, but not exclusively, to the south because of the later arrivals of speakers of Indo-European languages, who imposed their domination on most of the subcontinent, especially the northern and central-western part. But the persistence of a very large number of speakers of Dravidian languages in the center and south is an indirect indication that their genetic identity has not been profoundly altered by later events. 3. The most important later arrival was that of Indo-European speakers, the Aryans, who, about 3500 years ago entered the Indian subcontinent from their original location north of the Caspian Sea, via Turkmenia and northern Iran, AFghanistan, and Pakistan (see sec. 4.6). [.......] 4. In the northeast and in the center, the many populations speaking Austroasiatic and Sino-Tibetan languages are a witness to other major migrations and infiltrations, mostly from the east and northeast. These are even less well known than the other three components and probably more diverse. In the case of the Munda, their genetic similarity with Dravidians indicates that their migration may have taken place before the Aryan expansion to the eastern part of India. [p. 241]" Furthermore, on page 210: "In agreement with the indigenist trend in Anglo-American arcaeology, it has been suggested that the Aryan migration is a total invention (see Shaffer 1984). However, as briefly discussed in section 4.3, events in the Neolithic cultures of Turkmenia, northwest of the Indus Valley, are well explained by assuming a migration of pastoral nomads from the north at about the same time; the end here was also not abrupt and violent. Linking the two series of events in Turkmenia and the Indus Valley, it seems very likely that both were due to the takover of power by Aryan pastoral nomads who came from the steppes of Cental Asia, spoke an Indo-European language and used iron and Horses. More about their origin was given in section 4.3. [.....]" The genetic study shows that Indo-Europeans and Dravidians tend to form two different clusters. This fits nicely with the general impression that Cavalli-Sforza et al. get: That linguistic families tend to be genetically different from other linguistic families on a world-wide basis (with exceptions, of course!). If you are interested in the specifics about the distribution of various genes and an in-depth discussion of these matters, I suggest that you turn to Cavalli-Sforza's book yourself. I am afraid that it is a bit too much to copy! >The weakness of the traditional Indo-Aryan invasion model lies precisely in the >fact that the arguments are maybe partially right in se but do not tally with a >number of findings about the period envisaged for that invasion. I have the >impression that more and more researchers, also in the West, begin to feel very >uneasy about the fact that every fact known about ancient India is pressed into >the straitjacket of a theory that has brought no new insights in the past century. As new data emerge, they will clearly demand new configurations of the total mass of data. Parpola tries to do this in his latest book on the Indus Script. The discussion will certainly go on for a long time. But the genetic data seem to support the into-India model, one way or another. For the next few days, I shall be very busy with other stuff, so I am not going to participate in the debate. Bear with me if I don't answer counter-arguments! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Fri Feb 27 17:20:43 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 18:20:43 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan invasion Message-ID: <161227036221.23782.7930515235662800767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > I suggest that you take a look at a book called "Mohammed, Charlemagne & The > Origins of Europe". It deals with the late Roman empire and argues that both > the economy and the population took a battering for various reasons, leading > among other things to a depopulation of the Roman countryside and to a > reduction in the size of Roman cities. This in turn opened up parts of the > old R. E. to the barbarians from the North (but in the end also to the > Arabs). Of course, there is a discussion on the Late R. E. going on, and not > everybody will agree that depopulation played a role. A military historian > argues that Rome "fell" because the Romans lost their superior military > qualities. The point of the Sindhu/Sarasvati region is that we don't know > exactly how attractive it was to the Indo-Aryans. They may still have found > lots of interesting things there, or perhaps in the areas beyond those that > had been most damaged by the hydrological upheavals. My point is that the > balance of power may have tipped, just as it did in the Western Roman > Empire, giving the Aryans an edge. By the way, if we are talking about a > real invasion, armies move quickly and cover a lot of territory without > leaving archaeological traces behind them. I agree, but then there is an even more conspicious difference between de Roman and the Sarasvati case. In the Roman world, despite centuries of invasions and a final collapse Latin survived and developed further after the collapse into the Romanic languages. The languages of the invaders did participate to a certain extent in the formation of the Romanic languages, but - some peripheral areas excepted - failed to get a definitive foothold in the ares formerly occupied by the Romans (except for Arabic and Turkish later on). In the Sarasvati case, if one accepts the view that Dravidian was the language spoken in North-Western India at that time, how to explain the fact that this language has been wiped out from that area by intruders, who certainly could have formed only a minority in a culturally superior environment? How to explain the absence of Dravidian elements in the oldest forms of Indo-Aryan (the few such elements proposed are all heavily disputed). Finally, how is it possible that there is no trace of a Dravidian substratum in placenames and rivernames in most of North-Western India and even in most of Nortern India as a whole. The Dravidian hypothesis has to be abandoned. Of course, in the course of time Indo-Aryan became very much structurally influenced by Dravidian while Dravidian became very much Aryanised lexically, but these are later developments. > As for the Iranians, there are no traces of > anything Indian to the best of my knowledge. You are right, except for the fact that there are Gypsies among the Iranians too and that there are a number of Indian loan-words in Persian. However, I do not understand why you make this remark. The early migration route of Indians towards the west must have followed the Oxus bassin (formerly leading to the Caspian Sea), an area which came only relatively late under Iranian controll. > Ah well, the genetic argument again. I think I shall have to quote > something. I refer to the magnum opus on the genetics of the world by > Cavalli-Sforza called "The History and Geography of Human Genes". Princeton > University Press 1994. I must confess that I haven't read the work of Cavalli-Sforza, but I have the impression that he is trying to fit his genetic data into tradional theories. As far as I know there is no substantial genetical difference between the population of the Indus-Sarasvati culture and the present population of that area. > Summing up the population movements in India the book says: > 2. The second is a major migration from Western Iran that began in early > Neolithic times and consisted of the spread of early farmers of the eastern > horn of the Fertile Crescent. These people were responsible for most of the > genetic background of India; they were Caucasoid and most probably spoke > proto-Dravidian languages. These languages are now confined mostly, but not > exclusively, to the south because of the later arrivals of speakers of > Indo-European languages, who imposed their domination on most of the > subcontinent, especially the northern and central-western part. But the > persistence of a very large number of speakers of Dravidian languages in the > center and south is an indirect indication that their genetic identity has > not been profoundly altered by later events. Here Cavalli-Sforza implicitly admits the shortcomings of his research saying "they were Caucasoid and most probably spoke proto-Dravidian languages". Why couldn't they "most probably" have spoken Indo-Iranian or proto-Indo-Aryan ? He does not say that there genetic constitution closely resembles that of the present day Dravidians. He only has "an indirect indication" which is not based on genetic evidence but on linguistic and historical assumptions which form part of the traditional Indo-Aryan inavasion model. In fact he is turning in circles. > 3. The most important later arrival was that of Indo-European speakers, the > Aryans, who, about 3500 years ago entered the Indian subcontinent from their > original location north of the Caspian Sea, via Turkmenia and northern Iran, > AFghanistan, and Pakistan (see sec. 4.6). As is the case with so many factors, the genetic shift can easily be interpreted here as going the opposite way: from east to west. The time and areas indicated are more or less the period and areas of the westward movement of Indo-Aryan peoples, who by then had mastered the skills of horse-riding. > Furthermore, on page 210: > > "In agreement with the indigenist trend in Anglo-American arcaeology, it has > been suggested that the Aryan migration is a total invention (see Shaffer > 1984). However, as briefly discussed in section 4.3, events in the Neolithic > cultures of Turkmenia, northwest of the Indus Valley, are well explained by > assuming a migration of pastoral nomads from the north at about the same > time; the end here was also not abrupt and violent. Linking the two series > of events in Turkmenia and the Indus Valley, it seems very likely that both > were due to the takover of power by Aryan pastoral nomads who came from the > steppes of Cental Asia, spoke an Indo-European language and used iron and > Horses. More about their origin was given in section 4.3. [.....]" Again, no genetic argument at all, but a purely traditionalist explanation, which can be easily reversed. Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent Belgium From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Feb 28 05:40:45 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 21:40:45 -0800 Subject: CSX fonts In-Reply-To: <01bd4379$32aacc80$d73073c0@default> Message-ID: <161227036228.23782.10494540486887919099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Daniel Baum wrote: > The solution in the end was to use the Washington Indic truetype font as a > screen font, and then compile the document in TeX using the Washington Indic > PK font. Surprisingly the two fonts are coded slightly differently; the > a-acute is in a different place. I simply programmed a macro in my text > editor to do a search and replace before I compile the TeX file, and another > afterwards. I will definitely have a look at the alternative TeX fonts you > suggested, although I've never used .vf fonts before; is there anything I > should know before I start? The reason the TrueType font differs from the METAFONT is because certain character positions are rejected or reserved in Windows, so any character appearing in that position will appear empty. Tom Ridgeway, who made the WNRI TrueType and Postscript fonts, made copies of certain characters in duplicate positions to account for this behavior of Windows. These WNRI fonts really need to be revamped. Here's another suggestion: Move completely over to TeX and your problems will be solved! Ask anyone... :-P Regards, Anshuman Pandey From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 27 17:04:38 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 22:04:38 +0500 Subject: Astronomy in ViSNupurANa In-Reply-To: <01IU2ERH6AGI9G2YP2@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU> Message-ID: <161227036214.23782.13573388042010627985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:49 AM 2/27/98 -0600, Narahari Achar wrote: >> >> >>At 09:14 PM 2/26/98 +0500, I wrote: >>>parAzarA is supposed to be one of the famous ancient astronomers. >>>But in viSNupurANa he appears to believe that the Sun in addition to going >>>round the zodaic once in an year, goes round the zodaic once >>>in a day also as can be seen from the following verses in viSNupurANa. >>> >>> ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.45.(2) >>> SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.46(1) >>> >>>But this could have been easily found to be incorrect by the observation >>>at the time of a total solar eclipse. >>> >>>Thank you in advance for any elucidation of this. >>> >>>regards, >>> >>>sarma. >>> >> >>The sloka numbers are given wrongly. They should be >> >> ahOrAtrENa yO bhuKktE samastA rAzayO dvija 2.8.45.(2) >> SaDEva rAzIn yO bhuKktE rAtrAvanyAJsca SaDdivA 2.8.46(1) >> >>Observation of the stars just after sunset also should convince one >>that Sun does not go round the zodiac daily. >> >>regards, >> >>sarma >> > > There is a very simple explanation of this statement. >Please refer to VP (1. 3. 10): > > ayanam dakSiNam rAtrirdevAnAm uttaram dinam > >The ahorAtra referred (2.8.45-6) is the ahoratra of the devAs, which >corresponds to one year of the mAnavAs. Hence the sun progresses through all >the rAzi s in one ahorAtra. > >It is unfortunate that sometimes the statements are misunderstood and comments >about the incapability of simple observations by ancient Indian astronomers are >hurled. Pingree swears that Indian astronomers were not interested in making >the simplest of observations. >regards, >Narahari Achar > > I do not think this explanation is valid. These slokas occur in the context of explaining the lengthening of the day in uttarAyana and the shortening in dakSiNAyana. rAzipramAnAjanitA dIrghahrasvAtmatA dinE 2.8.46(2) tathA nizAyAM rAzInAM pramANairlaghudIrghatA dinAdErdIrghahrasvatvaM tadbhOgEnaiva jAyatE 2.8.47 Obviously the context here is not the ahOrAtra of dEvAs but of earthly beings. regards, sarma. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 27 17:21:42 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 22:21:42 +0500 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036216.23782.5132548160470090413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No, the Telugu word is derived from Portuguese.Bh.K. At 18:13 26/02/98 -0700, you wrote: >So did you mean to suggest that the word entered Telugu from English? > >What I hope to find out is how the word came into Indian languages, and >from which probable language source (colonial, e.g. English, Portuguese, >French? or.....?) >JK >********************* > The word appears to be derived most probably >> from the word 'master' or 'mastery'. It is also used to indicate >> an expert in a trade. Thus 'tApI mEstrI' stands for 'master mason'. >> >> regards, >> >> sarma. > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 27 17:24:33 1998 From: yigal at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (Yigal Bronner) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 22:54:33 +0530 Subject: Hindi and Chinese Summer Courses Message-ID: <161227036220.23782.214891115385688598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>Loyola University Chicago >>> >>>Summer Asian Languages >>> >>>Hindi & Chinese >>> >>>at loyola's Water Tower Campus >>>820 N. Michigan Ave. Chicago Il 60611 >>> >>> >>>Loyola University Chicago's Department of Modern Languages and Literatures >>>is pleased to announce two new intensive summer Asian language courses: >>>First-year Hindi and first-year Chinese (Mandarin). During the first >>>summer session, May 15-June 26, Hindi-I and Chinese-I will be offered; >>>during the second summer session, June 29-August 7, Hindi-II and >>>Chinese-II will be offered. Basic writing system skills and conversation >>>will be covered in both language sequences. The courses will meet twice a >>>week in the evenings (Hindi: Tuesday-Thursday; Chinese: >>>Monday-Wednesday), for three hours a session (6 to 9 P.M.), at Loyola's >>>Water Tower Campus located on Michigan Avenue in downtown Chicago. >>> >>> >>> >>>Instructors >>> >>>Hindi: Daisy Rockwell Chinese: Haiyan Fu >>> >>> >>>For More Information, Please Contact: >>> >>>The Department of Modern >>>Languages & Literatures >>>Loyola University Chicago >>>6525 N. Sheridan Rd. >>>Chicago, IL 60626 >>>(773) 508-2850 From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 27 19:40:13 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 01:10:13 +0530 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* In-Reply-To: <199802270857.JAA10346@lorien.site.cas.cz> Message-ID: <161227036223.23782.17215888321417470716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna wrote: > The word is most certainly from English...the English word "master" > becamed transformed into "mEstrI"..We have this on the word of > Dr M.V.Raja Ramanna( the nuclear physicist) who discusses this > while giving us the details of his genealogy in his > autobiography..This seems to have occured sometime in the late 18th > century.. Kittel gives the Portuguese 'mestre' as the source for Kannada 'meestri', and the Tamil Lexicon does the same for Tamil 'meestiri'. The Tamil Lexicon outlines its own history in its preface to vol. 1, saying it began as an update of Winslow's 1862 dictionary. The editorial board consisted entirely of Indians and Brits (who were considered authorities on _language_, not physics), and so we may expect that they would not say that this word is of Portuguese origin if actually it were otherwise. One would also expect a different transformation, if these words had had an English origin (something like 'myaas.taru', analogous to other borrowings from English). (Earlier in this list we had a mathematician declaring linguists idiots, and now Ramanna is an authority on linguistics because he is a nuclear physicist... this is decadent.) RZ From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 28 00:51:47 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 05:51:47 +0500 Subject: pu-/pU-/po- In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980226220334.006c1738@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227036226.23782.2608699787432194373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:03 PM 2/26/98 +0500, you wrote: >At 01:34 AM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: > From >>this, it is clear that this is also from the same root as pukai (smoke, >vapor, >>incense) is, i.e., *puk- discussed in an earlier posting. Here "-az" is a >>suffix. (*pok- that has been accepted earlier by Comparative Dravidianists >>will have to be revised.) Compare Ta. kam-az from the root Ta. kam emitting >>fragrance. >> >>Regards >> >>S. Palaniappan >> >> > >In telugu we have one word which contains both kam- and pu-. > > kampu = bad smell > >In Telugu kam- appears to be associated with bad smell. > > kamuru vAsana = bad smell due to burning of oil or animal fat > ( especially of animal fat). > >regards, > >sarma. > > In addition to the above we have a verb kammu- in telugu with the meaning 'spread' or 'fill up'. AkAzaM niMDA mabbulu kammukonnAyi = the whole sky is filled with clouds or clouds have spread through the whole sky inTi niMDA poga kammukoMdi = smoke has spread throghout the house or the whole house is filled with smoke kam- appears to have good smell meaning in the word 'kammani', if we assume that kam- which originally qualified smell has later been used to qualify taste. kammani ruci = pleasent taste kammani vAsana = pleasent smell regards, sarma. From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Sat Feb 28 14:39:32 1998 From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 06:39:32 -0800 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036234.23782.14601220596811039253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Robert. That would seem to settle it. Peter On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Peter J. Claus wrote: > > > Is it mEstrI or mE.s.trI (ie. retroflex 's' and 't') and if not, why > > not? > > > Exactly: because it is from the Portuguese and not from the English word. > Had the original word been English, we would most probably have seen a > retorflex 't', as is usual in such borrowings. > > RZ > From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Feb 28 07:41:22 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 08:41:22 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan invasion In-Reply-To: <34F6F5EB.D7A@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227036262.23782.18026013524947934373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Erik Seldeslachts wrote: >I agree, but then there is an even more conspicious difference between de >Roman and the >Sarasvati case. In the Roman world, despite centuries of invasions and a >final collapse >Latin survived and developed further after the collapse into the Romanic >languages. The >languages of the invaders did participate to a certain extent in the >formation of the >Romanic languages, but - some peripheral areas excepted - failed to get a >definitive >foothold in the ares formerly occupied by the Romans (except for Arabic >and Turkish later >on). In the Sarasvati case, if one accepts the view that Dravidian was the >language >spoken in North-Western India at that time, how to explain the fact that >this language >has been wiped out from that area by intruders, who certainly could have >formed only a >minority in a culturally superior environment? How to explain the absence >of Dravidian >elements in the oldest forms of Indo-Aryan (the few such elements proposed >are all >heavily disputed). Finally, how is it possible that there is no trace of a >Dravidian >substratum in placenames and rivernames in most of North-Western India and >even in most >of Nortern India as a whole. The Dravidian hypothesis has to be abandoned. >Of course, in >the course of time Indo-Aryan became very much structurally influenced by >Dravidian while >Dravidian became very much Aryanised lexically, but these are later >developments. There are many ways for an "invasion" and History gives us many various examples of moving populations, peaceful or violent. About the linguistical problem there is an useful question: who comes? just few warriors (eventually first used as mercenaries)? or whole families? In the first case, they find wifes in situ and the babies, breeded by the women, learn the mother language. A good example is the coming of Norsemen in the part of France still called Normandie: in very few generations they completely loose Norse and all speak French. But, in the other case, even in a "culturally superior environment", the political power is able to give a preference to the newcomers language: an example is found in France where the Gallic is fully replaced by the Latin. And the religion can be an other powerful vector: in the Mediterranean aera, the islamization gives the way to the arabization. On an other way, we must remember that, even scientifically conducted, archeology is just able to show us what remains: very few! stones don't talk! Worse, archeological facts are rarely pure facts but interpretations via a reading grid based on an unconscient theory. Despite the Dr Subrahmania point of view, that's not sure that archeology is more "scientific" than linguistic! In my opinion, it's highly probable that Aryans were coming IN, even if we don't know today how, when and why. Other points of view are nothing but nationalist ones, respectable only in a political scope. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From jkirk at MICRON.NET Sat Feb 28 17:05:51 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (Jo Kirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 10:05:51 -0700 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036238.23782.2286621626226961878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all who have settled it! (More hip than before) Joanna Kirkpatrick From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sat Feb 28 17:28:48 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 11:28:48 -0600 Subject: Origin of Dravidian languages Message-ID: <161227036244.23782.12144951944747165103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tholan, the legend says, served the court of Kulasekaravarman. Kulacekara Alvar belonged to Kerala. 9th century? His paasurams in Naalaayira Divya Prabandham (Tamil) are famous. Sanskrit Mukunda maala is ascribed to him. >?From Ambalakkaad, Jesuits printed only Tamil books, and NOT Malayalam books, as far as I know. I am sure the correct info can be got from Katherine Smith Diehl's recent book on first Indian printing (1996). Two references may be of use to your linguistic queries: 1) K. Raghavanpilla, Caldwell and A. R. Rajarajavarma on Malayalam grammar, 1996. (book) 2) B. Gopinathan Nair, The treatment of Malayalam in comparative Dravidian studies: An overview Int. jl. Dravidian Linguistics, Trivandram, 14, 2, p. 246-262, 1985 Regards N. Ganesan ******************************************************************************* DR. S. PALANIAPPAN WROTE: Can you give some textual examples of this? I am really curious. According to Dr. K. N. Ezhuthachan of The University of Kerala, author = of "The history of the grammatical theories in Malayalam", "Even though = the West- coast dialect of Tamil had some special characteristics, it seems they = were not so pronounced as to become a distinct language until the social and political changes, combined with the geographical factors, made Kerala separate from the Tamil land". The political events which precipitated = the development of a separate Malayalam identity were the prolonged = Coza-Cera wars of 10-11th centuries which led to considerable social changes. Even Classical Tamil poems contain almost Malayalam-like constructions. = In a poem by nakkIrar of Madurai of pANTiya country praising a person of = Coza country, (puRa.395) we find the following. ........ pazam cORRup pukavu aruntip putal taLavin2 pUccUTi arip paRaiyAl puL Oppi aviz nellin2 ariyal Aruntu .... nIrkkOzi kUppeyarkkuntu ...... akal aLLal puL irIiyuntu (cORRu =3D rice, pukavu =3D food, Aruntu - (will) consume, = kUppeyarkkuntu =3D (will) call, irIiyuntu - (will) leave) According to K. N. Ezhuthachan, even at the time of Lilatilakam, 14th = century A.D., the low caste people of Kerala used in their common speech forms = like vantAn2 (he came), iruntAn2 (he sat), etc., just as the people east of = the Western Ghats did. So he says, "This makes the surmise probable that = those phonological and morphological changes which became the characteristic features of KeralabhASA first started in the higher strata of the = society and spread gradually to the lower." Apparently temple story-telling was = called by the term nampiyAr Tamil. The critical thing was the politico-social identity switch. After all, = the best Tamil nationalist poet hailed not from the present Tamilnadu but = from present Kerala. iLaGkO aTikaL's epic is infused with a common identity = of Tamilness. KulacEkara AzvAr also affirms his Tamil identity. Joseph Kolangaden in "Tamil-Malayalam inter-relations: a linguistic = study" in Malayalam Literary Survey, mentions that "Probably with our first = eminent satirist, Thola popularising the Chera dialect of Tamil, = Tamil-Malayalam distinction became noticeable." He does not give the date for Thola. = He also says, "Even as late as the advent of the European missionaries, Lingua Malabarica was not much distinct from Tamil as the Jesuits published = from Ambazhakad a series of books which to us today sound more Tamil than Malayalam". (I do not know if these books are really Tamil or = Malayalam. Of course, the term Malabar also referred to Tamil as shown by the first = grammar of any Indian Language authored by a European, Fr. Henrique Henriques' = Arte de Lingua Malabar.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------= From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sat Feb 28 18:33:32 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 12:33:32 -0600 Subject: Caldwell, Dravidian Linguistics (Was: Tamil words in English) Message-ID: <161227036247.23782.14216394944804471798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Want to know where in the USA, I can find the PhD thesis of U. Dharmarajan on the College of Fort St. George, Madras. In 1980s from univ. of Madras. F. W. Ellis was associated with it, may be more on his Indian mss. collection, its fate, the vaccination papers from this dissertation?! Regards N. Ganesan From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Feb 28 21:56:45 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 13:56:45 -0800 Subject: Tamil words in English Message-ID: <161227036249.23782.18237416492008556894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After a couple of days of "not pressing the button," here goes: Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: >Since Rajaram is not here to defend himself we cannot make blanket statements >about his qualifications. Personally, I think Rajaram has enough scientific >training to atleast recognize irrational speculations. More recently, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: >Earlier in this list we had a mathematician declaring linguists >idiots, and now Ramanna is an authority on linguistics because he >is a nuclear physicist... this is decadent. And Lars Martin Fosse had written: >There is nothing wrong in challenging the AIT, as long as it is done in a >competent manner. But let me ask you as a physicist: Do you accept a >challenge against physical theory from a person without adequate >mathematical knowledge and no proper qualifications in physics? If you were >a geophysicist, would you spend much time discussing the reality of the >earth's rotundity with a member of the "Flat Earth Society" (there really is >- or at least recently was - such a thing)? Another example, maybe closer to home than the Flat Earth Society, is Richard L. Thompson's attempt at rationalizing Swami Prabhupada's comments on the flight to the Moon. A few quotes from a longish discussion: "Srila Prabhupada has often said that the astronauts have never actually visited the Moon...these statements mainly fall into two categories (1) that the demigods will not allow human beings to enter higher planets because human beings are not qualified to do so, and (2) that the astronauts have not experienced the celestial opulences actually existing on the Moon, and therefore they could not have gone there." " ...he [Prabhupada] comments that since the moon-god is the presiding deity of vegetation, there must be vegetation on the moon, and yet the scientists say that it is a barren desert... he argues that those who reach the moon attain a life of 10,000 years, and thus the astronauts could not have gone." "...This leaves open the question of whether or not the astronauts traveled in three-dimensional space to the moon that we directly perceive in the sky..." "...This brings us to the question of whether or not there was a moon hoax." "...Prabhupada mentioned a few tentative possibilities as to what might have actually transpired on the moon flight, and he expressed general doubts as to the honesty of the people involved with space exploration. In this area there are many opportunities for cheating, and there is evidence suggesting that some cheating has taken place. However, to obtain conclusive proof of large-scale cheating would be very difficult, and possibly dangerous." ----- Dangerous? Is NASA involved in a massive coverup? Are the men in black lurking behind our computer monitors while the black helicopters hover above our campuses? Now, R. Thompson is described on the book's cover as having received a Ph.D. in mathematics from Cornell University, and as having done research in quantum theory and mathematical biology at the State University of New York and at Cambridge University (UK). Have Dr. Thompson's scientific credentials helped him here? Would our physicist friends on Indology consider this an appropriate discussion for a scientific forum on space exploration, because one has to keep an open mind? The ref. is: Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy, Richard L. Thompson, 1989. Bhaktivedanta Book trust (U.S.), pp. 130-134. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley P.S. Although he probably won't live to be 10,000, John Glenn, who is over seventy, will again go out into space. Or will this just be another one of NASA's Hollywood-esque tricks? From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 28 22:45:44 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 14:45:44 -0800 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036253.23782.5337700906787420957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I had written: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, S Krishna wrote: > >> The word is most certainly from English...the English word "master" >> becamed transformed into "mEstrI"..We have this on the word of >> Dr M.V.Raja Ramanna( the nuclear physicist) who discusses this while >[...] and Dominik says( in addition to Robert Zydenbos who said something similar) >Um, this examplifies quite neatly just how useless a background in nuclearphysics is in a question concerning historical lexicography and philology.As has already been pointed out, the linguistic evidence points to theword having entered Indian languages from Portuguese. > The mistake that I made in the posting seems to be in my refering to Raja Ramanna as an "eminent nuclear physicist"...which has given the people the impression that the reason why I'd quoted him is because he was a physicist...this is not true, the reason why I quoted him is 1.because he had made a statement to this effect which I'd read 2. the "eminent nuclear physicist" part came in to distinguish him from umpteen numbers of others who may have the name Raja Ramanna, since Ramana, Ramanna are very common names in South India.. the point I was trying to make had nothing to with his profession.. I realise that there are some people who think that a background in Engg/Science is qualification enough to comment on everything from geography to metaphysics to astrology, but I am not one of them and I'd therefore appreciate people not reading in meanings and attributions that were never intended in the first place..... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 28 11:00:02 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 16:30:02 +0530 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036230.23782.16574383692887457246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Peter J. Claus wrote: > Is it mEstrI or mE.s.trI (ie. retroflex 's' and 't') and if not, why > not? > Exactly: because it is from the Portuguese and not from the English word. Had the original word been English, we would most probably have seen a retorflex 't', as is usual in such borrowings. RZ From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sat Feb 28 22:38:26 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 16:38:26 -0600 Subject: KaaThaka SaMhitaa typo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227036251.23782.18271234315322822190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone with a copy of the KS possibly help me be sure of the following passage which is blurred in the copy I have of the Svaadhyaaya-MaNDala edition (1983), page 139, KS 14.6, second line (6th line on the page)--asterisks/*** mark the unsure bit: . . . . . paapmopazliSTo ***yadyatiSa^NgaM*** grahaan gRhNaatya^Ngaad [end of 6th line].... Many kind thanks in advance jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From roheko at MSN.COM Sat Feb 28 15:59:47 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 16:59:47 +0100 Subject: HTML formatted papers via Indology? Message-ID: <161227036236.23782.16395076396091491327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know if the Indology-server accepts HTML-messages? For example to send a paper with HTMLinks in order to facilitate the reading of such papers for all members? Are the emails restricted absolutely to text-format? Any members I contact by their personal email-adress receive HTML-emails easily. Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Feb 28 17:13:06 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 17:13:06 +0000 Subject: Oriental Research Institute In-Reply-To: <01bd4243$787f69a0$LocalHost@carlos> Message-ID: <161227036240.23782.13113206325846991675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Bruno Lo Turco wrote: > Dear members of the list, > Is there anyone who knows the name and > address of the Director of the Oriental > Research Institute and Manuscript > Library in Trivandrum? The Director Oriental Research and Manuscripts Library University of Kerala Kariavattom 695581 Trivandrum, India The former Director, Dr Vijayan, has recently retired, and the new Director is Dr P. P. Thampi. I have a colleague in Trivandrum who uses email regularly, and who has friends at the MSS library. Let me know if this would help. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Feb 28 17:24:06 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 17:24:06 +0000 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* In-Reply-To: <19980227024008.8661.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227036242.23782.16697250952759755674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, S Krishna wrote: > The word is most certainly from English...the English word "master" > becamed transformed into "mEstrI"..We have this on the word of > Dr M.V.Raja Ramanna( the nuclear physicist) who discusses this while [...] Um, this examplifies quite neatly just how useless a background in nuclear physics is in a question concerning historical lexicography and philology. As has already been pointed out, the linguistic evidence points to the word having entered Indian languages from Portuguese. Words don't just "transform" from one thing into another. There are phonological laws involved, and not everything is possible (including "master > mEstrI"). All the best, Dominik From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 28 12:39:57 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 17:39:57 +0500 Subject: Query on the term *mistri* Message-ID: <161227036232.23782.10451640841246284559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> both s and t are dental in me:stri:. English 'master' becomes Telugu, Ka. me:STa:ru. Bh.K. At 12:01 27/02/98 -0800, you wrote: >Is it mEstrI or mE.s.trI (ie. retroflex 's' and 't') and if not, why >not? > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 28 18:30:33 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 98 00:00:33 +0530 Subject: TrueType fonts, TeX etc. Message-ID: <161227036245.23782.3344340020982856651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey wrote (about TrueType and PK fonts, etc.): > Here's another suggestion: Move completely over to TeX and your > problems will be solved! Ask anyone... :-P I'm quite willing to believe you: TeX looks like a wonderful system. My one problem is, however, that I have not been able to install any font successfully except the standard Computer Modern font (I am using emTeX with OS/2) -- with which I can write practically anything I want in transliteration, using any diacritics I want, but I have not been able to fully install either other Latin fonts (the system refuses to produce accented European characters in these other fonts, although the Metafont files say that they are there) or, for instance, the ITRANS fonts. Is there any clever source of information available anywhere on how to install other TeX fonts? I have gone through all the documentation on TeX and Metafont that came with emTeX, but I still have not understood what I am doing wrong. RZ