From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Dec 1 00:33:43 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 16:33:43 -0800 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043040.23782.16245747316451176857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >> > The points made above were not maed in the context of the Aryan invasion theory. They are relevant to Indo-European culture as a whole, and the point is to show that some cultural items can be shown to be inherited. > Well I'm sure that many cultural items can be inherited, but I still don't understand how such items can not migrate independently of demographic movement. No matter how precise the link between any cultural item, this in no way indicates that item was not borrowed. There is some research on cultural memes, which appear to be passed on through socialization processes. There are even a few who link genetic features like instinct, to the inheritance of culture. But given all of this how would you explain the differences between contemporary Scythians and Persians (assuming the former were Iranian)? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Dec 1 06:10:36 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 22:10:36 -0800 Subject: Attachments Message-ID: <161227043046.23782.14057014954870425484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin, I have also been receiving most (though not all!) your postings with attachments. But the best part is that Jacob's posting telling you about the attachments came with an attachment! Are you there jacob! Luis Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 06:48 PM 11/30/98 +-100, you wrote: >Hello Jacob, > >I am sorry that you keep getting these attachments, but you seem to be the only one. At least no one else reports them. However, another contact yesterday received an email which not only contained the attachment that was supposed to be there, but also a large section of a private letter to my daughter. I haven't the faintest idea what goes on, but I just received my Microsoft User Group card, and I'll call them and see if they know more. > >Lars Martin > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > >---------- >Fra: Jacob Baltuch[SMTP:jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE] >Svar til: Indology >Sendt: 30. november 1998 18:35 >Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Emne: Re: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? > ><><> >Dear Lars: > >I keep getting attachments when you reply to a list message. >Here is what I got this time. > >Jacob > > > >>Elliot Stern wrote: >> >>I found your reply to the query below understandable, but less than helpful. >>There were 1050 items in the archives that turned up using the search term >>"Aryan," and most of those of course were totally unrelated to the topic. >>Of those that were, none (as far as my less-than-total review revealed) >>improved upon the following excerpt from a message Jayant Bapak rather early >>on in the debate: >> >>May I suggest that you in addition to "Aryan" also search for "Witzel". >>Witzel has on some occasions summed up the arguments in favour of the >>"invasion" (or rather "migration") theory. His emails will therefore give >>you a reasonably good overview of the "invasionist" argument. >> >>As for archaeology: it has been said several times on this list that >>archaeology is in no way so conclusive as som "indigenists" seem to think. >>There is no necessary link between ethnicity, race, material culture and >>language. (An argument for this was already developed by Boas in 1948, I >>believe in another context). The irony of the thing is that this insight >>now seems to have reached the Western side of the Indo-European question. >>After a 150 years or so of archaeological research, a number of tightly >>argued theories (e.g. Marija Gimbutas) and endless discussions, the German >>archaeologist Alexander Haeusler has reached the conclusion that there is >>no way European archaeology can be linked to an Indo-European invasion of >>Europe. Whoever they were, and whenever they came (assuming that they >>weren't here to begin with), archaeology doesn't give us any certain >>information. >> >>Looking for "proof" in archaeology is therefore a waste of time. What you >>do, is this: you collect as many data (linguistic and otherwise) as you >>can, configure them in such a way that they give a pattern that makes >>sense and interpret that pattern. It is the logic of the puzzle, and you >>may perform the following experiment: Imagine that you have a puzzle >>consisting of a 1000 pieces. Throw 800 of these pieces (chosen at random) >>away and then try to reconstruct the picture (or simply: guess what the >>picture represented). >> >>The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. The value >>of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. >> >>Best regards, >> >>Lars Martin Fosse >> >>Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >>Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >>0674 Oslo >>Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >>Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >>Email: lmfosse at online.no >> >> >>Content-Type: application/ms-tnef >> >>Attachment converted: Alliance Drive?:SV- Is the Aryan Invasion a Myt >>(????/----) (0000D45E) > > > > >Attachment Converted: C:\NETWORK\EUDORA\SVSVIsth > From das at NETCOM.COM Tue Dec 1 06:18:30 1998 From: das at NETCOM.COM (Das Devaraj) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 22:18:30 -0800 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? In-Reply-To: <01BE1C3F.BEF69120@ti34a22-0078.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227043049.23782.3701963982096903050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. > The value of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Quite a provocative statement... wonder how many linguists feel the same way? Nice to see at least one person with a firm conviction. [ donning linguistic resistant flame suit ] This is too good to resist :-) In the not too distant past (month or so ago?) there was a very brief and interesting discussion about Dominique Thillaud's name and gender. Somebody posted a message (one might add, a message with a linguistic slant) for the reason why Dominique's name (a man by his own admission) was mistaken for a woman's name. Just out of idle curiousity, I am wondering... If linguistic interpretation is so great that a mistake like this can be made about a living person's name, wonder how good it is for predicting what happened thousands of years ago? [ ducking and running for cover... ] das From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 1 13:19:48 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 05:19:48 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043070.23782.10877327662515643420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Lars, Another point. When you reply to an Indology message, your e-mail software automatically adds SV: in front of the title. As an example, this message has THREE SV:'s! (In the archives, your replies have done this for all your replies.) Others send it with Re: or RE: something like that. In the archives, those messages with "Re" get grouped whereas those with "SV" start a separate thread. I was always thinking your replies should start with "Re:". Yours, n. ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 1 12:15:12 1998 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 07:15:12 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043065.23782.5333001949966563506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? 'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to pre-classical kshatriya culture. I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is not conclusive. Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is action for an epic kshatriya. Thanks, Kevin McGrath. Sanskrit Dept. Harvard College. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 1 09:39:29 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 09:39:29 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043054.23782.5710951262984178240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ATTACHMENTS I begin to see that the problem that has been bothering Jacob Baltuch in fact has been bothering the whole list. I am terribly sorry, but I'll contact the Microsoft User Group and see if they have a solution. I am honestly at a loss to understand what goes on. I guess this will come with an attachment, too. Bear with a little while longer! Please. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no ---------- Fra: N. Ganesan[SMTP:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Svar til: Indology Sendt: 01. desember 1998 00:03 Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Emne: Re: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Hi Lars, Every time you post, I do get attachments. Go to indology archives. There your attachments are included as unreadable scribble. Also, there are no return keystrokes of your writeup. It is one long line. The original writeup by someone and your response to it are not clearly demarcated. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2177 bytes Desc: not available URL: From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Tue Dec 1 14:50:43 1998 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 09:50:43 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043072.23782.17843290242163043178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why would one assume 'daivam' to be related to pre-classical Kshatriya culture? Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Kevin McGrath wrote: > Dear List Members, > > Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? > > 'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to > pre-classical kshatriya culture. > > I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is > not conclusive. > > Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is > action for an epic kshatriya. > > Thanks, > > > Kevin McGrath. > > > Sanskrit Dept. > Harvard College. > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 1 09:54:02 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 09:54:02 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043057.23782.17385983377160342370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > The best evidence is still the linguistic (and cultural) data. > The value of archaeology (if any at all) is quite subsidiary. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Quite a provocative statement... wonder how many linguists feel the same way? Nice to see at least one person with a firm conviction. I suppose I asked for it... Let me be more precise: In the context of Indo-European studies, archaeology has less value that previously assumed when it comes to tracking the movements of Indo-Europeans. Please read Winfred P. Lehmann, Theoretical Bases of Indo-European Linguistics, Routledge, 1993. In the last part of the book, Lehmann deals with the homeland problem and the archaeological theories that have been developed for the Indo-European incursion into Western Europe. As I stated before, it is difficult, if not impossible, to link language, ethnicity, and artifacts in a convincing manner. This of course does not mean that it cannot be done in other cases. Sometimes it can, sometimes it can't. [ donning linguistic resistant flame suit ] This is too good to resist :-) In the not too distant past (month or so ago?) there was a very brief and interesting discussion about Dominique Thillaud's name and gender. Somebody posted a message (one might add, a message with a linguistic slant) for the reason why Dominique's name (a man by his own admission) was mistaken for a woman's name. Just out of idle curiousity, I am wondering... If linguistic interpretation is so great that a mistake like this can be made about a living person's name, wonder how good it is for predicting what happened thousands of years ago? You are perfectly right! Linguistics make mistakes, and spend a lot of time telling each other so. But then, isn't this the case with most lines of scholarly business? [ ducking and running for cover... ] Don't worry, I am a mildmannered person, of a kind and gentle disposition. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2741 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 1 11:02:24 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 11:02:24 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043060.23782.14916610005239780533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a test of my email function! I would be grateful if Jacob Baltuch and N. Ganesan would answer me (so that not everybody on the list sends me a message). Please let me know if there are any unwanted attachments with this email! Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2037 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 1 12:20:22 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 12:20:22 +0000 Subject: [Announcement] New devanagari font (fwd) Message-ID: <161227043063.23782.14716470611673925968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:46:15 EST From: TSTEC at aol.com Subject: re devanagari font Dear Sirs, We have recently finished a devanagari font. It is comprised of 365 charaters and was designed for Sanskrit. Though you might be interested in knowing of it. It is available through Theosohical University Press. We have a sample page at: http://members.aol.com/tstec/hmpage/deodars.html Sincerely, Randell Grubb From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Dec 1 11:22:42 1998 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 12:22:42 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227043077.23782.5724893498427147087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members: Could someone send me the email address of Jonathan Bader? Thank you. John Grimes MSU From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Tue Dec 1 18:08:23 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 13:08:23 -0500 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043051.23782.5205134718561911376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The number of Urdu speakers in Bengal is a controversial topic; the govt. of Pakistan did not recognize the Bengali language as being spoken by Muslims and officially declared that all `East Pakistanis' spoke Urdu. Subsequently after independance the govt. of Bangladesh only recognized Bengali (the converted Hindus took over with the help of the Indian govt.), and declared that only a few thousand persons spoke Urdu or Hindustani. Both the views are wholly biased, although several `censuses' have data supporting one view or the other. The best unbiased censuses were made by the British. Sir H.H.Risley in his book, `The People of India' states that the number of `Foreign Immigrant Mussulmans' in Bengal was estimated to be half of the total Muslim population by the British Indian Census. These are all Urdu speakers. I think this is a good compromise between the two extremes; thus I would say about half of the Bengali Muslims speak the eastern dialect of Hindustani ( I think it is called Sharqi but am not sure), while the other half (the converts) speak Bengali. Otherwise some figures are given at the Ethnologue database at http://www.sil.org/ethnologue but the estimate of 50-50 Urdu-Bengali is still the best. Samar On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > I suddenly find I need to know the number of Urdu speakers in Bangladesh > and Nepal, but do not have access to the censuses of these countries. For > Nepal, I have the information provided by Wolf Donner in _Lebensraum Nepal_ > (1994) that there were 2,650 Urdu speakers there in 1961. > > As according to the last, Indian census there were 8,542,463 Urdu speakers > in Bihar and 1,455,649 in West Bengal, it seems reasonable that there may > be some in Bangladesh and Nepal as well. > > Is there some kind soul out there who has access to this information who > can send me the figures or tell me where to find it? I have access to > reference works but not to censuses. > > With grateful thanks, > > Ruth Schmidt > > > *********************************************** > Ruth Laila Schmidt > Dept of East European and Oriental Studies > University of Oslo > P.O. Box 1030 Blindern > N-0315 Oslo, Norway > Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 > Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 > Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 1 13:39:54 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 13:39:54 +0000 Subject: SV: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043068.23782.12114746397551914226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kevin McGrath wrote: Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? 'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to pre-classical kshatriya culture. I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is not conclusive. Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is action for an epic kshatriya. I can make a wild guess (have not got Mayrhofer available, so you must take this for what it is). Could daiva be connected to the root div (gamble)? In that case, a translation might be "chance", and daivaat could mean "by chance", "accidentally". Just a thought... Regards, Lars Martin Fosse Sanskrit Dept. Harvard College. Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1871 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 1 19:29:34 1998 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 14:29:34 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043079.23782.11700205002041104675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working on Karn.a in MBh., and consider him somewhat 'archaic' as a hero. His many references to daivam are thus, for me, somewhat pre-classical in a sense. I do take your point though. Thanks, Kevin McGrath. On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > Why would one assume 'daivam' to be related to pre-classical Kshatriya > culture? > > Alf Hiltebeitel > Director, Human Sciences Program > Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences > The George Washington University > Phillips Hall 412 > 202/ 994-4297 > Fax: 202/ 994-7034 > > Department of Religion > 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 > Fax: 202/ 994-9379 > > > > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Kevin McGrath wrote: > > > Dear List Members, > > > > Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? > > > > 'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to > > pre-classical kshatriya culture. > > > > I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is > > not conclusive. > > > > Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is > > action for an epic kshatriya. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Kevin McGrath. > > > > > > Sanskrit Dept. > > Harvard College. > > > From bprasad at CISCO.COM Tue Dec 1 23:03:09 1998 From: bprasad at CISCO.COM (Bal Prasad) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 15:03:09 -0800 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? In-Reply-To: <199812010000.QAA27426@proxy2.cisco.com> Message-ID: <161227043085.23782.11915500969534123197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars, I too get an unreadable attachments with EACH of your postings. -Prasad From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 1 16:57:18 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 16:57:18 +0000 Subject: Archaeology and Indo-Europeans Message-ID: <161227043075.23782.4246198458784259953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a service to the list, I will give you the bibliographic references that Lehmann gives in his Theoretical Bases of Indo-European Linguistics. I have not read anything of this, but some of you may find them useful: Alexander Haeusler (1983) "Zu den aeltesten Streitwagen in Osteuropa" in Peter Snoy (ed.) Ethnologie und Geschichte: Festschrift f?r Karl Jettmar, Wiesbaden. Steiner, 222-33. Alexander Haeusler (1985). "Die Anfaenge von Rad und Wagen in der Kulturgeschichte Europas" i Produktivkraefte und Produktionsverhaeltnisse, Berlin: 121-33. Alexander Haeusler (???) "'Kurgankultur' und Urgeschichte Griechenlands," 6th International Colloquium on Aegean History, Athens 1988. (Proceedings of...???) Alexander Haeusler (1992) "Archaeologie und Ursprung der Indogermanen", Das Altertum 38: 3-16. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 2 01:21:00 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 17:21:00 -0800 Subject: pANini's inspiration and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227043094.23782.16045319367518602655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My random thoughts. The most important study on dakSiNAmUrti is published by TiruvAvaTutuRai AtIn2am: S. Narayanacuvami, TaTciNAmUrtti: Akamam & Cilpam, TiruvAvaTutuRai AtIn2am, 1991 (OCLC Number: 34114086) (A similar book by ca. taNTapANi tEcikar got expanded into Nataraja in art, thought and literature in English). The Rishis are canakar, canantanar, canAtanar and canatkumarar. (Coined to sound like Sanatkumara? Brahma-Sanatkumara myth??) This book will give all tamil and sanskrit verses on dakSiNAmUrti as well as icons. Tevaram (or Cankam Texts?) say the banyan tree underwhich Al amar celvan2 (the god under the banyan tree, dakSiNAmUrti) has small pots hanging. These small pots are represented in Chola era dakSiNAmurti images! I have seen an article by P. L. Samy, IAS (Retd.) showing these. (P. L. Samy did excellent studies on biological names of fauna/flora of Cankam Texts.) Have not seen dakSiNAmUrti images, north of Tamilnadu compared to literally 100s of them in the deep South. Do they occur in Badami, Aihole, Pattadakal? What about Kashmir? Kashmir 'Saiva texts exist from ninth century AD. The Kashmir agamic saivism and Tamil saivism are related. Where are the early dakSiNAmUrti images apart from the deep South?? DakSiNAmUrti worship occurs in 'Saivagamas of Sivachariar priests. It is probably taken into Smarta tradition by Sankaracharya. Does Ritual in an oscillating universe (Richard Davis) speak of DakSiNAmUrti worship? May be Helene Brunner has written on DakSiNAmUrti?? Pl. check books on 'Siva. Meister, Discourses on Siva, works by S. Kramrisch, F. Clothey and W. Doniger come to my mind. If Daksinamurti is in Sanskrit, these will have something about Him. Talking of the aindra episode in CilappatikAram: Kamban says an2uman2 is an expert in aindra grammar in many places. (Much) Before CilappatikAram, the Preface of TolkAppiyam, the first extant book in Tamil, talks of aindra grammar and four vedas as well. So, the competition between PaninIya and non-pANinian aindra occurs even earlier than CilappatikAram. (A. C. Burnell, The aindra school of Sanskrit grammarians, 1875). The entire life story of mANikkavAcakar is built around the theme of 'Siva as his Teacher. AtmanAthasvAmi temple at AvuTaiyArkOil temple legends. They have been well analyzed by G. E. Yocum 1) The goddess and the guru: two models of Universal order in Tamil India, Religion and Global order, p. 87-117, NY: Paragon House, 1991 2) Wisdom made visible: the divine teacher in Tamil 'Saiva temple and monastic rituals, Studia Missionalia, 36, 1987, p. 175-193 3) God and Man in the Tamil 'Savia Siddhanta, In search of the divine, p. 41-58, NY: Paragon House, 1987. Potiyil (Potalaka in Buddhist Sanskrit), Tamil, Agastya, and Agastya being taught by 'Siva are narrated for atleast 1500 years. Potiyil/Potikai rain forests with a lofty mountain and great waterfalls is the ideal abode of Avalokitezvara. Some early texts in Sanskrit call Potalaka 'Paradise on Earth'. (cf. M-T. Mallmann, Avalokitecvara, 1949). For 'Siva in a grove, see Paul Younger, The family of 'Siva in a South Indian grove, Studies in religion, 11, 3, 1982, p. 245-263. 'Siva, in the garden of Potiyil Mountain teaches Agastya. Apart from TiruvAvaTutuRai work, consult: 1) T. M. P. Mahadevan, The hymns of Sankara, 1980 2) Sri Sankaracharya's Daksinamurti stotra with the vArttika of Manasollasa of Suresvaracharya. Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore, 1992 On South Indian Iconography of dakshinamurti: consult the series: J. Filliozat, Les images de 'Siva dans l'Inde du Sud, Arts Asiatiques (Paris), 8, 1961, p. 43-56 M. E. Adiceam, Les images de 'Siva dans l'Inde du Sud, Arts Asiatiques (Paris), 11 (1964) 23-44; 12 (1965) 83-112; 13 (1966) 83-99; 17 (1968) 143-172; 19 (1969) 85-106. I also think that 'Siva as the teacher, 'Siva as the teacher of Tamil and Sanskrit originated in the deep South. In the case of Buddhism, it is Avalokitezvara of Potalaka. Legends of Agastya, ManikkavAcakar, aindra grammar etc., These myths are attested first in Tamil and Sanskrit letters produced in the South. Regards, N. Ganesan Dr. S. Palaniappan writes: ------------------------------------- I feel that the tradition of ziva inspiring pANini might have been inspired by the story of dakSiNAmUrti. Consider the following attestations aRam kiLarum nAlvEtam Alin2 kIz iruntu aruLi (tevAram 1.131.7) sitting under the banyan tree and having bestowed the four vedas which expound the Rta .... Alin2 kIz aRagkaL ellAm an2Ru avarkku aruLicceytu nUlin2 kIzavarkaTku ellAm nuNporuL Aki nin2Ru (tevAram 4.36.6.1-2) Having bestowed upon them the Rtas under the banyan tree and for all the owners/authors of texts becoming the fine inner meaning.... kal Alin2 puTai amarntu nAl maRai ARu agkam mutal kaRRa kELvi vallArkaL nAlvarukkum vAkku iRanta pUraNam Ay maRaikkap pAlAy (tiruviLaiyATal purANam 14.2.14.1-2) Becoming the ancient legend beyond words for the four who learnt well the four vedas and six angas sitting beside the banyan tree and transcending the vedas .... One of the six angas is, of course, the grammar. There is an interesting episode in cilappatikAram, the Tamil epic (not later than 5th century AD), regarding the grammar, aindra. When kOvalan2, kaNNaki, and the Jain nun kavunti are travelling to Madurai, on the way they meet a brahmin who talks to them about a pond called holy zaravaNa in tirumAlkunRam (present azakar kOyil). He says that if the travelers take a bath in that pond, they will attain proficiency in the text of the chief of the devas, i.e., aindra. The Jain nun replies that there is no need to do what the brahmin suggests and that the text by Indra of kalpas is included in a Jain text. (The Tamil word for the Jain text is "meyppATTiyaRkai" and the commentators call it "paramAgama".) The importance of grammar as felt in Tamil land at the time and competition between different religious schools to possess it seems to come through this episode. tEvAram texts cited above may be dated to the early 7th century AD. The tiruviLaiyATal purANam is a later text. But the tradition may be even older. ziva in Classical Tamil texts is usually referred to by the name "Al amar celvan2" (the Izvara who sits under the banyan tree). Thus the dakSiNAmurti motif is very old. What I would like is more information to see if there are any Sanskrit or Buddhist precursors to this motif as found in Tamilnadu. I would very much like to know the following details regarding the dakSiNAmurti story in which ziva teaches four disciples/sages under the banyan tree. 1.The Sanskrit text that mentions this story for the first time and the date of the text 2. The subjects that ziva taught these four disciples/sages 3. The names of these four disciples/sages 4. The earliest iconographic representation of this story --------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Dec 2 02:13:41 1998 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 18:13:41 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Audio RV Message-ID: <161227043097.23782.5292435201868508344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Shashidhar Rajamani >Subject: Audio RV >To: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu >Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:19:17 -3000 (CST) >Reply-to: shashi at tamu.edu > >Hi, > >Check this website : >http://www.ahista.com/dvt/vedchant.html > >shashi. > >ps: Am not currently subscribed to indology. >Can you forward this to the list ? > From bj462 at SCN.ORG Wed Dec 2 02:44:10 1998 From: bj462 at SCN.ORG (Bradley A. Esparza) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 18:44:10 -0800 Subject: Attachments Message-ID: <161227043099.23782.6000998020165542086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Hello Jacob, >> >>I am sorry that you keep getting these attachments, but you seem to be the >only one. At least no one else reports them. Oh, no! I get all those darn attachments. And Herr Fosse is not the only one on the list I get them from. I have text-only capabilities and have only one megabyte mail storage, so the attachments add up. Sometimes, they are three times longer than the message! Please read your MS card! Thanks Ever, Bradley A. Esparza From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Dec 1 19:36:44 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 20:36:44 +0100 Subject: Urdu speakers Message-ID: <161227043082.23782.10134961432964254048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net, The warmest thanks to those who responded to my plea for information about Urdu speakers in Bengladesh! I recommend everyone to have a look at http://www.sil.org/ethnologue (yes another website but a very useful one). Now, if I am not overly importunate, is there someone out there who knows the number of Urdu speakers in: The United Kingdom Germany The United States This information will be included in an article to be published in a book on Indo-Aryan Languages by Curzon Press (it is a good cause), so if you will be so kind as to cite your source I would be very grateful. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From das at NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 2 05:40:49 1998 From: das at NETCOM.COM (Das Devaraj) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 21:40:49 -0800 Subject: On avoiding attachments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043107.23782.17350988065495410914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > Since this seems to be a particularly tough nut to crack > maybe someone who's had to deal with such problems before > can volunteer some help to Lars? Not necessarily a step by step solution to that particular problem, but a more general answer. - Get a "shell" account with your ISP. Then use the free software program "pine" a program developed by University of Washington. This email is composed using the above setup. Advantages: Even an ancient computer with a modem will do. Also, you do not have to download the mail to your PC. Till this year, I have used a fully loaded "286 PC" to read mail, off and on! (used to get 500+ emails most days) PINE is a very simple program to use. (there is also a PC pine) - May be you are into fancy graphics and run MS products (95/NT/DOS) or Macintosh Install "Pegasus mail" a free, incredibly powerful and easy to use mailer. See http://pmail.usa.com All the above platforms and more supported. In addition to English, is available (supposedly) in Catalan, Czech, Danish, Dutch, French, German, Hungarian, Italian, Polish, Spanish, Swedish - no Sanskrit, so far - Use the email program that comes with Netscape Navigator. (also freely(?) available) If you don't fall into any of these categories - well, you can move into one of these categories. If you use anything else, make sure that the program (at least basically) understands and complies with RFC822 (Internet standard for emails). das From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Dec 2 04:23:42 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 23:23:42 -0500 Subject: aryan invasion Message-ID: <161227043101.23782.3341589068559520091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > Note 1: Due to upcoming trips, I cannot really take part in this > thread apart from this message. > > Note 2: I consider myself a sceptic in this matter, that is I > find myself much less sure than those who believe that they > know the past inside out. > > "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > 1. The lower numerals (like 3,4,5) were apparently being developed in > > the Middle East/Sumeria around 3,000 BC. > > Are these numerals (notation for numbers) or number words (names > for ordinals)? Linguists deal with number-words. > > Mathematically speaking, the decimal system has no special status. > There are actually a ``duodecimal society'' dedicated to the > theory that the decimal system is a mistake and the base should be > 12. They have a few very smart people among them. Of course, some > of us are becoming quite good at base 16, the possible base of > the future :-) The significance of the decimal system is its naturalness; we have 10 fingers. That makes it easy for computation learning. For the same reason, the use of base 20 in early societies is just as natural. For primitive societies in which the illiterates were the 99%, base 20 is easy because you can go to your toes after you are finished with your fingers. For two people the maximum is 40, and that is why in Middle-East stories the number 40 is used in many stories/legends as a kind of "maximum number". It would have taken some sophistication to standardize on 10, and it did. > > > "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > > Vedic chariots were made without any metal, there was no single nail > > in them. > > Egyptian chariots had very little metal in them (to Mark: The > tyres were made with skin, put on wet and then dried to shrink > and tighten). But it would be confusing to say that they were > made without metal: The tools were metal, presumably bronze. > [ Spruytte's reconstruction used bronze tools and the chariot > functioned perfectly and was quite durable.] It was probably so because metal was stil expensive. Drilling for spokes requires metal and so does the axle. Without those you'd have serious problem. Leather would wear out quickly and was probably a cheap-grade substitution. > There have been attempts to make wheels without metal tools. > While the attempt was not a complete success (they made it with > rotating axles, leading to premature failure), determined > persons can probably make it work. The problem is that this > invloved ``training'' branches to grow in circles. It is > extremely unlikely that people without knowledge of wheels in > the first place will do that. And solid or cross bar wheels > clearly depended on metal. > The biggest problem is in getting planks from trees. How does one cut along the tree to make planks? It would have been a major undertaking for a society to make those things. It is not the kind of thing that can be made by roving bands of herdsmen. IT is too ridiculous to consider. It is possible that meteoric iron might have been discovered (accidentally) and used for a short while and maybe the knowledge spread, but mining is a serious business. Making fires hot enought for baking bread is too much for nomads. How are they supposed to smelt metal? > > Lack of metal in chariots probably had to do with attempts to > make them as light as possible. Remember, the early horses were > really ponies, not Clysdales (sp?) [so much for horse drawn > chariots frightening 3rd m. BCE Near Easterners]. The metal rim on wheels and metal axles would not make it worse, but better. After all friction and unevenness is probably worse than having a few pounds to roll. > > Finally, there is clear evidence of trade between Kopet Dagh > and Caspian-Aral steppes. I remember that there is some > evidence of trade across the Caucases as well. I suspect that > Yes, there is. > people in metal poor areas recyled their metal. So the lack > of raw materials is not a big problem. > Yes, but it would have to be discovered and then created and then spread. It is not impossible for axes, drills and hammers to be bought by nomads for repairs after the technology has spread everywhere. They might have been able to find wood during some of their travels, or cannibalize old carts but to actually propose that the nomads were importing wood, running mines, smelting operations, etc is too much to believe, especially when none of this was being done in civilized, sedentary societies in which one might expect this kind of organization to exist. > I don't know about fuel. How did Andronovans manage? They lived > in steppes, but are `famous' for metal working. [Of couse, the > Andonovo sites are said to contain evidence for irrigation > agriculture and grain milling, making them suspect fit for > Indo-iranians who are supposed by some to be ignorant of > agricultural work.] Horse-dung and Cattle-dung is used for cooking and heating probably even now. Nomads probably always lived on the fringe of settled societies or were partially agriculturalists. Probably in some desperate times or special circumstances they started picking wars on settled peoples and that is what we notice, not when they are dragging their cows around not bothering anyone. > BTW, were the pins really of wood too, or of metal? YOu have to drill wood for spokes. YOu also need to probably cut planks to make the round part of the wheel itself that the spokes go into. It could be from a sapling but then it would have to be choopped and made into something like a flat piece and that would require tools also. YOu can probably make arrows from saplings. You break it off, strip the bark and then heat treat it slowly and patiently until it is as straight as you can make it. YOu can't break off a branch; it would be too crooked, but some tree saplings shoot up straight for relatively long heights. I can't recall the name but these trees grow really tall with relatively little growth and branching sideways. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Dec 1 23:19:46 1998 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 00:19:46 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043088.23782.5400398686696636344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >ATTACHMENTS > >I begin to see that the problem that has been bothering Jacob Baltuch in >fact has been bothering the whole list. I am terribly sorry, but I'll >contact the Microsoft User Group and see if they have a solution. I am >honestly at a loss to understand what goes on. > >I guess this will come with an attachment, too. Bear with a little while >longer! Please. While you fix this problem could you please do this: avoid REPLYing to messages. Instead cut and paste the part of a message you want to reply to into a new message. I have noticed that in that case you do not send around attachments. This might be a little burdensome (but not functionally crippling since you can still reply you just don't do it with REPLY or whatever the equivalent functionality is called in your software) but please think of all the people who have to clean up their desktop (or wherever their attachments go) every time. Only today my desktop was littered with six useless attachments as a left over of your activity on the list :-) Btw, this has been, to my recollection, the longest running "attachment problem" on this list, starting around the end of September; most similar problems get fixed in a week. Since this seems to be a particularly tough nut to crack maybe someone who's had to deal with such problems before can volunteer some help to Lars? From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 2 13:13:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 05:13:34 -0800 Subject: Attachment problem Message-ID: <161227043136.23782.200761752648812222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TO: Anybody having this problem: The suggestion is to register a web based e-mail account. Available for free at many locations. Let us say, from hotmail site. (This idea & hotmail was started by an Indian.) or from Yahoo, ... Register a free account at http://www.hotmail.com If you send messages from that account to Indology, no attachments. This will save money for those who pay by number of words they receive and bandwidth. If need be, after the problem is resolved, you can go back to the original account. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Wed Dec 2 13:55:17 1998 From: ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Jan Seifert) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 05:55:17 -0800 Subject: thuggees? Message-ID: <161227043138.23782.5663558692269237556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear list members, i?m looking for information about the thugs (thuggees). know bout dasguptas "obscure religuous cults" and a sheet in "journal of indian history (is it 29?)". where can i find more information? thanks in advance jan seifert stud. univ. leipzig [admin note: changed date from Sat, 11 Jun 1904 14:52:39 +0100] From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 2 13:55:17 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 05:55:17 -0800 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043140.23782.13801115959557219573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I think the answer to your question is partly to be found in internal Indian politics. I have been digging around in the little nationalisms that India produced at the turn of the century and that partly are still there (particularly Dravidianism), and it would seem that Indigenous Aryanism is a knee-jerk reaction to some of the more Aryan-unfriendly ideas that turned up in the South. (I think there are other reasons as well of a non-scholarly nature). >>> Indigenous Aryan schoolers point to Europeans wanting to come out of their long hold from "Bible, Neareast, Semiticism" etc., William Jones' discovery gave Europe a good avenue to do that. So, Europeans all of a sudden became "Indo-Europeans". It is natural that Anybody likes to dig for their roots. Sanskrit professorships got endowed all over the West. Hitler took the Aryan idea too far! The writeup from Dr. Fosse shows that Dravidian culture plays an important role in modern India. Others say it did in ancient times as well. To understand India, neglecting ancient literatures from Dravidian side and focussing exclusively on Sanskrit will be lopsided. For example, Sanskrit literary theories and Dravidian literary theories (tolkAppiyam) have not been compared so far. (Dhvany of Anandavardhana is related to uLLuRai plus iRaicci of TolkAppiyam, predating Anandavardhana by several centuries.) To understand India, I am confidant that Dravidian studies in the West will go a long way. Hopefully yours, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 2 11:47:16 1998 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 06:47:16 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043125.23782.14590241441295251341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominique, Yes, I see your point. It is strange though that these ksatriyas talk so much about what is 'action': often these speeches are in the mouths of women - Draupadii, Kuntii. I feel that translating daivam by 'fate' misses something. It also assumes a sense of personal autonomy or volition which I am not sure is part of this culture. Kevin. On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Dear Kevin, > You wrote: > >'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to > >pre-classical kshatriya culture. > > I can't agree fully. Hero's fate and it's acceptation by him is a > very important topos in Eurindian epics as you can see in many Germanic (cf > Jan de Vries "Die geistige Welt der Germanen") or Greek (cf Akhilleus) > stories. Even if I don't have knowledge of Indian divine characters > equivalent to Moira or the Norns, it seems that heroes like karNa or > zizupAla fit very well with the fact to be 'marked' by their destiny. In > this scope, it's probably interesting to remark that such heroes > (Starkadhr, Sigurdr, Herakles, Akhilleus) are never fully 'positive': sins > are their fate. > Incidentally, I find very interesting the link dIvyati/daiva > suggested by Lars, much better than the classical derivation from deva > (curious evocation of the Einstein's sentence "God not plays dices"). > Best regards, > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 2 14:58:22 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 08:58:22 -0600 Subject: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <01BE1DD6.F2119D00@ti01a23-0034.dialup.online.no> Message-ID: <161227043146.23782.10215758655228649869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Robert Zydenbos wrote: > >>This 'debate' (why do I place quotation marks? because it is too >amateuristic, dirty and vicious to be considered a true debate) has >been on this list before, > Please, look up the Spring/Summer98 issue of JIES to know what viciousness is. It is ok to label people and attribute motives to Indian scholars .....but it becomes vicious to oppose existing dogma ? On an IE homeland...etc You obviously havent read what Denis Sinor has to say on this whole Indo-European concept. The least that is expected is that people should first make the effort to read up on the current ideas. I suggest that you please look it up "The Bronze Age and Early Iron age peoples of Eastern Central Asia" volumes. Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 2 17:00:02 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 09:00:02 -0800 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043166.23782.3175660569252034047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Ashish Chandra writes: * In fact the word Dravid means wealth in Sanskrit. The facts are different, I am afraid. Dravya in Sanskrit means Wealth. Tamizh -> Damila -> Dramila -> Dramida. Robert Caldwell coined the term, Dravidian from Dramida which means Tamil in Sanskrit. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 2 09:12:26 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 09:12:26 +0000 Subject: Attachment problem Message-ID: <161227043110.23782.17386366134245269583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to everyony who sent me examples of how my mails look. Apparently, Microsoft User Group's good helper did not succeed yesterday. I'll send her some of the data I have received today, to see if she can find out more. Once again, I am sorry about this. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 2 17:12:55 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 09:12:55 -0800 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043171.23782.14239304169800665683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * The word "Musa" in Sanskrit is "Mouse" in English : So * What ? But anyway, that's really beside the point. This relationship is one of the main concerns in historical linguistics. *Well, that is their opinion. What [..] Bharatiyas should know is that *mindless text-torturing is irrelevant and undesirable. What's *important is not the origin of who wrote the Vedas but what is in * them. For historians of religion and others who study ancient cultures, this origin question is very important. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 2 15:15:13 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 09:15:13 -0600 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <01BE1E0D.9DC082C0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227043156.23782.15374253176008615778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Could you please give me/us the precise bibliographic reference to Sinor's >work? > The Bronze Age & Early Iron Age Peoples of Eastern Central Asia (Journal of Indo-Eastern Studies Monograph Series No. 26) by Victor H. Mair, A. N. Zhimin, Elena E. Kuzmina(Cor) Hardcover (May 1998) Institute for the Study of Man; ISBN: 0941694631 *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 2 15:17:11 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 09:17:11 -0600 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043158.23782.4599124061407080631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Could you please give me/us the precise bibliographic reference to Sinor's >work? > Sorry for the typo..in the previous message.... The Bronze Age & Early Iron Age Peoples of Eastern Central Asia (Journal of Indo-European Studies Monograph Series No. 26) by Victor H. Mair, A. N. Zhimin, Elena E. Kuzmina(Cor) Hardcover (May 1998) Institute for the Study of Man; ISBN: 0941694631 *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Dec 2 14:45:31 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 09:45:31 -0500 Subject: thuggees? In-Reply-To: <199812021351.OAA13184@studserv.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227043144.23782.16899047238807225591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the Thuggees, see the following informative account: The Stranglers The Cult of Thuggee and its Overthrow in British India by George Bruce Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., Inew York, 1968, First American edition in 1969 Best, Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 11 Jun 1904, Jan Seifert wrote: > dear list members, > i?m looking for information about the thugs (thuggees). > know bout dasguptas "obscure religuous cults" and a sheet in "journal of > indian history (is it 29?)". > where can i find more information? > thanks in advance > > jan seifert > stud. univ. leipzig > From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Dec 2 18:04:50 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:04:50 -0800 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043169.23782.3863394384186992327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maybe I'm the only one, but I haven't found the debate, at least on this list, particularly vicious. Obviously there is a deep-rooted sensitivity on this subject of origins, which strikes at the heart of self-identity on both sides. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 2 10:18:57 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:18:57 +0000 Subject: 4996enno Message-ID: <161227043114.23782.17248408241577447978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hei Hildegunn! Her kommer de tre setningene. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4996enno.doc Type: application/msword Size: 19456 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Dec 1 23:20:00 1998 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:20:00 +1100 Subject: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043090.23782.16750167611682660406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't have any comment on daivam or 'fate' or 'destiny' in pre-classical kshatriya culture, but my article "Free Will in the Ramayan of Bhanubhakt" in M. Thiel-Horstmann (ed) Ramayana and Ramayanas (Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden:1991) might be of interest for later views on fate in South Asia. Richard Barz ANU, Canberra >Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? > >'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to >pre-classical kshatriya culture. > >I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is >not conclusive. > >Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is >action for an epic kshatriya. > >Thanks, > > > Kevin McGrath. > > >Sanskrit Dept. >Harvard College. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 2 09:33:39 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:33:39 +0100 Subject: Sorry Message-ID: <161227043117.23782.6630317707664420947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net! I am sorry for the last message that erronously got spread all over the world. This time a matter of the wrong address. Another attachment that you didn't need. I wonder if I should simply bury myself in a hole.... Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 2 16:35:25 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:35:25 -0600 Subject: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043162.23782.10606380617556508452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:59 AM 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote: > >The "indigenous Aryan" debate has a tendency to get vicious for a very >simple reason. For people of Indian origin, this issue has close >connections with their own perceptions of their identiy. > This may be partially true. But,I must say that it is the Europeans who have had more problems with perceptions about their identity - especially with their jewish heritage and religion. Thankfully, more scholars in the U.S are realizing that as well. By focussing and looking at only the Indian people, there is a tendency to label and attribute motives. Why isnt anyone looking at the German interest in Indian studies ? Is it because somehow that Germans and European scholars in general do not have any biases and only Indians do ? Why should it be - that it is always the Indian people who should be observed and the Europeans the observers ? It is high time that the motives of eurocentric academics be studied and commented upon. Again,I repeat, please look up the Spring/Summer98 issue of JIES to see who has identity problems. It is European academia that is paranoid about the so called Indo-European people - because of obvious identity questions. Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * ? * * * *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Dec 2 18:48:37 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:48:37 -0800 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043174.23782.1946579766394576705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Pollock deals with German Indology. Trautmann, of course, deals with British > prejudice in his book on "Aryans and the British", which I am sure you know. > Probably you're referring to the book, _Aryans and British India_ (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1997). Try also Leon Poliakov's older _The Aryan Myth_ which deals with European racial theories in general. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 2 05:19:30 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:49:30 +0530 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? In-Reply-To: <199812010619.LAA24993@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043104.23782.5996933545683395538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Fosse has already summed up the importance of lingustic evidence in this matter. It should be clear that when we are dealing with what is essentially a *linguistic* question, linguistic evidence is far more relevant than archaeological (or whatever other) evidence ever can be. It looks unbelievable that there are still people around who dare question this. This 'debate' (why do I place quotation marks? because it is too amateuristic, dirty and vicious to be considered a true debate) has been on this list before, and we may assume that the same noises will be made again. What is still lacking, however, is a deconstruction of why anyone could be fanatically and irrationally interested in opposing the well-established conclusion that the Indo-Germanic languages entered the Indian subcontinent from outside. It looks like a thinly disguised attempt at reviving E. Said's "Orientalism" thesis (which has already been thoroughly exploded) using quasi-scientific arguments. RZ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Dec 2 15:59:52 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:59:52 -0500 Subject: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <19981202135517.27490.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043160.23782.8515220280047083159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "indigenous Aryan" debate has a tendency to get vicious for a very simple reason. For people of Indian origin, this issue has close connections with their own perceptions of their identiy. Before the modern period, there were other "vicious debates" in different parts of India. For instance, in Maharashtra, many vicious debates developed in the 16th and 17th century over whether there were true Kshatriyas around and whether a particular contemporary caste was or was not to be counted among Shudras. The ruling Maratha rulers like Shivaji were denied the status of Kshatriya by many local Brahmanas, including the later Peshwahs who became the prime ministers of this dynasty. This was prompted in part by the Brahmana claim that in the Kali age there were only two Varnas to be found: Brahmana and Shudra. The debate over the status of Kayasthas was equally vicious. The Brahmanas of Maharashtra were among the first to begin using the term Arya as a self-referring term in the modern era, and this term was understood within the context of the contemporary Brahmana beliefs about there being only two Varnas in the Kali age. The Brahmana and Shudra were often replaced with Arya and non-Arya in the 19th century writings. Later, the Aryanism proliferated to other movements such as the Arya Samaj, the Hindu Maha Sabha, the RSS, and BJP/VHP etc. But one can historically look at the roots of the ideologies in the 19th century. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > <<< > I think the answer to your question is partly to be found in > internal Indian politics. I have been digging around in the little > nationalisms that India produced at the turn of the century and that > partly are still there (particularly Dravidianism), and it would > seem that Indigenous Aryanism is a knee-jerk reaction to some of the > more Aryan-unfriendly ideas that turned up in the South. (I think > there are other reasons as well of a non-scholarly nature). > >>> > > Indigenous Aryan schoolers point to Europeans wanting to > come out of their long hold from "Bible, Neareast, Semiticism" > etc., William Jones' discovery gave Europe a good avenue to > do that. So, Europeans all of a sudden became "Indo-Europeans". > It is natural that Anybody likes to dig for their roots. > Sanskrit professorships got endowed all over the West. > Hitler took the Aryan idea too far! > > The writeup from Dr. Fosse shows that Dravidian culture > plays an important role in modern India. Others > say it did in ancient times as well. > To understand India, neglecting ancient > literatures from Dravidian side and focussing exclusively on > Sanskrit will be lopsided. For example, Sanskrit literary > theories and Dravidian literary theories (tolkAppiyam) > have not been compared so far. (Dhvany of Anandavardhana > is related to uLLuRai plus iRaicci of TolkAppiyam, predating > Anandavardhana by several centuries.) > > To understand India, I am confidant that Dravidian > studies in the West will go a long way. > > Hopefully yours, > N. Ganesan > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Dec 2 10:22:04 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 11:22:04 +0100 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043123.23782.15093133861825319560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Kevin, You wrote: >'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to >pre-classical kshatriya culture. I can't agree fully. Hero's fate and it's acceptation by him is a very important topos in Eurindian epics as you can see in many Germanic (cf Jan de Vries "Die geistige Welt der Germanen") or Greek (cf Akhilleus) stories. Even if I don't have knowledge of Indian divine characters equivalent to Moira or the Norns, it seems that heroes like karNa or zizupAla fit very well with the fact to be 'marked' by their destiny. In this scope, it's probably interesting to remark that such heroes (Starkadhr, Sigurdr, Herakles, Akhilleus) are never fully 'positive': sins are their fate. Incidentally, I find very interesting the link dIvyati/daiva suggested by Lars, much better than the classical derivation from deva (curious evocation of the Einstein's sentence "God not plays dices"). Best regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Adrian.Burton at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Dec 2 00:32:17 1998 From: Adrian.Burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 11:32:17 +1100 Subject: attachment and detachment Message-ID: <161227043092.23782.5004718424579162250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a short note to say that the problem of attachment seems to have been conquered. I must admit that I have had a problem of attachment and duality with Dr. Fosse's messages, but we seem to have mastered the art of action without attachment, since the last message from Dr. LMF came to me (and others I assume) "anaasakta" and "nirdvandva". Adrian ______________________________________________________________ Adrian Burton tel:(61) (2) 6279 8240 South and West Asia Centre fax:(61) (2) 6279 8326 Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University 0200 ACT Australia From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 2 19:32:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 11:32:34 -0800 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043181.23782.15171300132739170306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, I would rather say that Dravidian jingoism/chauvinism of the early 20th century is a knee-jerk reaction to what the West was doing. For centuries, Indians were repeatedly told that Sanskrit is the Language of the Gods; Brahmanas are the Gods walking on earth; Sanskrit is eternal, and never changing. Shudras should not learn it and kaliyuga has only brahmanas or shudras. (cf. pApa yoni shloka in Bhagavad giitha and the bhAshyams). In European rush/'race' to disentangle themselves out of Semiticism, they transformed suddenly to "Indo"-Europeans. The Western universities started the study of Sanskrit, and the brahmanas in India were favored by the British in acquiring Western style of modern education. This Western help led to Indian masses being told: "German language came out of Sanskrit, All music comes from Sama veda, ..." etc., A modern myth: "Sanskrit is ideal to build/run computers". George Hart told me: "If it is so, People will soon realize that Tamil is even more suited." When OCR becomes a reality, it will be first in Tamil. Remember that Printing, Typewriters came to Tamil first - Compact, shorter set of alphabets and no cluster letters in its orthography. Seeing that the table is set by the British for Indo-Aryanization of the whole of India and over 90% of the professions like Doctors, Lawyers are going to Brahmanas, and an ancient language with 2300 years of literatures will become endangered, Dravidian movement got started to oppose this imperialism. I agree, it was not done in a sophisticated way. It is interesting that N. Rajaram, Shrikant Talageri are South Indian Brahmanas. It may be the same for Indigenous Aryans in Indology also. The findings about IVC and by historical linguistics upsets the status quo of caste hierarchy in India. So, false theories are formulated and propagated with vigor. The first thing Indigenous Aryan schoolers do is to deny the existence of a whole language family. They assert that Dravidian languages cannot be grouped as a family!! And, they are quite stubborn about it. They retort to polemics on anybody who says something is Dravidian. It is interesting those polemical about the writings of Dravidian scholarship never criticize the blunders done by their own school. Tamils have a proverb: You can always wake up a guy from real sleep; but, your efforts will be futile to try it on a person predending to be in deep sleep. Regards, N. Ganesan > <<< > I think the answer to your question is partly to be found in > internal Indian politics. I have been digging around in the little > nationalisms that India produced at the turn of the century and that > partly are still there (particularly Dravidianism), and it would > seem that Indigenous Aryanism is a knee-jerk reaction to some of the > more Aryan-unfriendly ideas that turned up in the South. (I think > there are other reasons as well of a non-scholarly nature). > >>> > > Indigenous Aryan schoolers point to Europeans wanting to > come out of their long hold from "Bible, Neareast, Semiticism" > etc., William Jones' discovery gave Europe a good avenue to > do that. So, Europeans all of a sudden became "Indo-Europeans". > It is natural that Anybody likes to dig for their roots. > Sanskrit professorships got endowed all over the West. > Hitler took the Aryan idea too far! > > The writeup from Dr. Fosse shows that Dravidian culture > plays an important role in modern India. Others > say it did in ancient times as well. > To understand India, neglecting ancient > literatures from Dravidian side and focussing exclusively on > Sanskrit will be lopsided. For example, Sanskrit literary > theories and Dravidian literary theories (tolkAppiyam) > have not been compared so far. (Dhvany of Anandavardhana > is related to uLLuRai plus iRaicci of TolkAppiyam, predating > Anandavardhana by several centuries.) > > To understand India, I am confidant that Dravidian > studies in the West will go a long way. > > Hopefully yours, > N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sani at LING.UNIPI.IT Wed Dec 2 10:38:49 1998 From: sani at LING.UNIPI.IT (Saverio Sani) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 11:38:49 +0100 Subject: tila Message-ID: <161227043121.23782.13263566727396147183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, I would like information on the following subject (references in sanskrit texts): tila or sesamum indicum. Can anyone help me? Thanks S.Sani =================================================================== Prof. Saverio Sani Dipartimento di Linguistica Universita' di Pisa Via S.Maria 36 56126 PISA tel: 05024773; fax: 05044100; cellulare: 0347*3793507 e-mail: sani at ling.unipi.it =================================================================== From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 2 16:44:46 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 11:44:46 -0500 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043164.23782.6025351966505011301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin wrote : I think the answer to your question is partly to be found in internal Indian politics. I have been digging around in the little nationalisms that India produced at the turn of the century and that partly are still there (particularly Dravidianism), and it would seem that Indigenous Aryanism is a knee-jerk reaction to some of the more Aryan-unfriendly ideas that turned up in the South. (I think there are other reasons as well of a non-scholarly nature). > * But this is really another debate. I have no doubt that the followers of Indigenous Aryanism believe strongly in their ideas, and that we therefore have to relate to I.A the way we relate to any other set of ideas. But it is a puzzle that persons like Dayanand Saraswati and Tilak had no problems accepting the idea that the Aryans came from outside India, whereas their nationalist followers find this highly unpalatable. I would really like to know when I.A. became a fixed part of the Hindutva nationalist ideology, or for that matter, when I.A. "got started". Dear Lars, I am not really conversant with the existing debate here and elsewhere about the origin of the Aryans. But I can easily point out to you that Swami Vivekananda himself had debunked the Aryan invasion theory. In fact, the Vedas themselves mention the word Arya and not Aryan, which means noble, as I am sure you know. As far as the current political scene in India goes, I think you have been digging in futility as you are way off the mark. Dravidianism actually started with the Justice Party in Tamil Nadu. In fact the word Dravid means wealth in Sanskrit. Indian neo-nationalism, according to the so-called nationalists, is ascribed to none other than Ramakrishna Paramhamsa then Swami Vivekananda and then Sri Aurobindo Ghosh. All other recent nationalistic organizations have taken inspiration from these great men. As far as Dayananda Saraswati is concerned, I am not sure but Lokamanya Tilak himself depended on a large part on the interpretation of Max Mueller who interpreted that "darkness covered with darkness" actually meant that the sun did not rise for several days. Lokamanya Tilak ascribed that to the origin of the Aryans ( Indians ) being the Arctic region. Nowhere in the history of Aryavarta (Bharat) has it been said that the Aryans had come to India. Personally I don't consider either archaeology or linguistics to be of any consequence. The word "Musa" in Sanskrit is "Mouse" in English : So What ? But anyway, that's really beside the point. What you should know is that nationalism is not a phenomenon of this century alone. It has existed in some form or the other for the past 1000 years. There are ample examples in the history of Bharat wherein men have sought to replace the tyranny of the Mlechchas by the rule of Sanatan Dharma. Western historians as well as our own have labeled them as scattered rebellions based on self-interest. Well, that is their opinion. What we as Bharatiyas should know is that mindless text-torturing is irrelevant and undesirable. What's important is not the origin of who wrote the Vedas but what is in them. Om Shanti Shanti Shanti Ashish Chandra From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL Wed Dec 2 11:15:05 1998 From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 12:15:05 +0100 Subject: Address Prof Namvar Singh Message-ID: <161227043119.23782.16703850893319421110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, A small question: does anyone know if prof Namvar Singh still teaches at JNU, New Delhi and does anyone happen to have his address (e-mail or snail-mail). Many thanks in advance. Thomas de Bruijn From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Wed Dec 2 17:46:09 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 12:46:09 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043173.23782.6699566156098027624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Nath wrote: > > On the other hand, philologists have been known to claim that > Egyptians were inferior to Steppe people in making spoked wheels > because the former used only 4 and occationaly 6 spokes, while the > latter had 18 or more spokes. Somehow, such nonsense seems to > escape ridicule. > > Nath, who ever said a stupid thing like that? [The gist of what I wrote is true, but refering to the sources, I see that 18 should be replaced by other numbers, 10 for the particular one I am going to quote. I was going to reply off-list, but the repeated assertions that only linguistics matters here changed my mind. When you start saying things like ``Andronovo culture was (proto)-Aryan'' or ``Invasions from BMAC brought I-Ir languages into India'', archaeology matters. When realia of chariots enters the debate Engineering, or at least carpentary, matters. When you say things like ``chariots were the tanks of {Bronze Age etc}'' or ``horse-drawn chariots would have struck fear into the hearts of inhabitants of ancient Near East/Northwest India'' the state of art of wheeled vehicles and comparisons of ancient horses and hemiones matter.] Here is a quote from Paropola, ``Deciphering the Indus Script'', p151., col 2 para 3: ``The horse chariot ... Sintasha cemetry had two wheels with ten spokes each (fig 8.20) In the ancient Near East most chariots continued to have only four spokes until aboput 1400 BC. Thus the chariotry of the early Andronovo of the northern steppes was more advanced.'' Note the ``thus''. > The reason why we don't = > believe in them is that the ancients had no knowledge of the necessary = > principles, nor the technology to make them. So, physics and engineering do matter, at times at least. And we need to point to evidence of metal-working in Andronovo sites to satisfy Mark Hubey. Not knowing Russian, I have little ability to read original reports. But isn't there some survey in English/French/German of Andronovo culture, written >without< any reference to the ``Aryan problem''? From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Wed Dec 2 18:02:33 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 13:02:33 -0500 Subject: aryan invasion Message-ID: <161227043176.23782.16864358908067507890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > It was probably so because metal was stil expensive. Drilling > for spokes requires metal and so does the axle. Without those > you'd have serious problem. Leather would wear out quickly and > was probably a cheap-grade substitution. Please, read Spruytte's ``Early Harness systems''. Wooden axles, from suitable trees are durable enough. I am not contesting that metal tools would be required. I am just not convinced that they were lacking in the steppes, whether imported or made locally or both. > The metal rim on wheels and metal axles would not make it > worse, but better. After all friction and unevenness is > probably worse than having a few pounds to roll. Lack of fit was taken care of (again in Tut's chariot) by having a long sleeve extend from the hub over the axle. In fact, this is precisely why Littauer and Crowell reject the idea that the Sintasha vehicle was a ``real'' chariot. Also I doubt that casting a cyldrincal axle to the required tightness or polishing metal axles is that easy. -------- May be someone can tell me the answers to the questions this thread raises: What IE tree names are there in Indo-Iranian? Isn't Skt bhuurja cognate to birch? If so, how long could PI-Ir speakers live in treeless areas without losing that word? Anybody know references to pollen studies or such that can tell us about the flora of 3rd-2nd m. BCE steppes? --- Nath From pahlke at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Dec 2 12:18:15 1998 From: pahlke at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Michael Pahlke) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 13:18:15 +0100 Subject: Cervus elaphus hanglu Message-ID: <161227043127.23782.16922486083640819264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cervus elaphus hanglu is the zoological name of the red deer that is native to Kashmir. "hangul" or "hanglu" is said to be an Indian word, but I cannot find it in my Hindi and Urdu dictionaries? Can anyone tell me something about it? -- Prof. Dr. Ronald E. Emmerick Hamburg University From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 2 18:24:57 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 13:24:57 -0500 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043178.23782.212745322834447148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The point I was trying to make was that just as the Arabs took the Hindu numerals from India and the Europeans took it from them, does it prove that the Arabs came from India or that the modern day Europeans are actually Arabs ? Why is Mouse a "Musa" but Tiger is "Vyagraha" ? Ashvaha and Horse ? Why is there a difference ? Needless to say that there has been interaction between different cultures over the centuries but it does not prove that a whole people migrated. Regards Ashish -----Original Message----- From: N. Ganesan [SMTP:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 12:13 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Vicious Debate * The word "Musa" in Sanskrit is "Mouse" in English : So * What ? But anyway, that's really beside the point. This relationship is one of the main concerns in historical linguistics. *Well, that is their opinion. What [..] Bharatiyas should know is that *mindless text-torturing is irrelevant and undesirable. What's *important is not the origin of who wrote the Vedas but what is in * them. For historians of religion and others who study ancient cultures, this origin question is very important. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From roheko at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Dec 2 12:28:57 1998 From: roheko at T-ONLINE.DE (Rolf Koch) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 13:28:57 +0100 Subject: tila Message-ID: <161227043129.23782.2198527283872707912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> tao raNNA tilA pesiyA: tila-samaM tillaM dAyavvaM tti. tillaM addAeNa paNAmiyaM. Then the king sent sesam (ordering:) Give back sesam oil (tilla) that corresponds with the sesam. The sesam was changed (paNAmiya - into oil) by means of a mirror. Saverio Sani wrote: > Dear List members, > > I would like information on the following subject (references in sanskrit > texts): > tila or sesamum indicum. > Can anyone help me? > Thanks > S.Sani > > =================================================================== > Prof. Saverio Sani > > Dipartimento di Linguistica > Universita' di Pisa > Via S.Maria 36 > 56126 PISA > tel: 05024773; fax: 05044100; cellulare: 0347*3793507 > > e-mail: sani at ling.unipi.it > =================================================================== From biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 2 19:05:14 1998 From: biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 14:05:14 -0500 Subject: thuggees? In-Reply-To: <199812021351.OAA13184@studserv.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227043180.23782.4499929418434913871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A quick bit of historical evidence can be found in Wilhelm Halbfass' Tradition and Reflection pp.102-107. Loriliai Biernacki University of Pennsylvania According to Jan Seifert: > > dear list members, > i?m looking for information about the thugs (thuggees). > know bout dasguptas "obscure religuous cults" and a sheet in "journal of > indian history (is it 29?)". > where can i find more information? > thanks in advance > > jan seifert > stud. univ. leipzig > From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Dec 2 13:10:05 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 14:10:05 +0100 Subject: Cervus elaphus hanglu In-Reply-To: <36653007.772180@uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227043133.23782.6038158270420531677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Cervus elaphus hanglu is the zoological name of the red deer that is >native to Kashmir. "hangul" or "hanglu" is said to be an Indian word, >but I cannot find it in my Hindi and Urdu dictionaries? Can anyone tell >me something about it? > >-- >Prof. Dr. Ronald E. Emmerick >Hamburg University Turner, CDIAL no. 12410, derives hangul from *zArngala, "horned". Best regards, Georg v. Simson From LD5 at SOAS.AC.UK Wed Dec 2 14:51:39 1998 From: LD5 at SOAS.AC.UK (Lalita du Perron) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 14:51:39 +0000 Subject: Urdu speakers Message-ID: <161227043142.23782.14476156734981278255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following on from the messages on the number of Urdu speakers in various countries, I am puzzled as to what is the 'official' or indeed accepted definition of an 'Urdu speaker'. Lalita du Perron Dept of South Asian Studies SOAS, University of London From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Dec 2 15:10:56 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 15:10:56 +0000 Subject: thuggees? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043151.23782.3838200364179673351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: >For the Thuggees, see the following informative account: > > The Stranglers > The Cult of Thuggee and its Overthrow in British India > by > George Bruce > Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., Inew York, 1968, First American > edition in 1969 > > Best, > Madhav Deshpande > >On Sat, 11 Jun 1904, Jan Seifert wrote: ^^^^ That reference is too recent :-) Jan, your computer clock seems to be set to 1904. Or what we have is another sample of a fine Microsoft mail product ("Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295)" according to the headers). In any case, since I have set my mailer to sort threads by date, this is now by far the earliest in Indology. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 2 15:05:36 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 16:05:36 +0100 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043149.23782.1345389885477266311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmania wrote: > On an IE homeland...etc > You obviously havent read what Denis Sinor has to say on > this whole Indo-European concept. The least that is expected is that > people should first make the effort to read up on the current ideas. > I suggest that you please look it up "The Bronze Age and Early Iron > age peoples of Eastern Central Asia" volumes. Could you please give me/us the precise bibliographic reference to Sinor's work? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse PS: If there are any unwanted attachments here, please let me know. My version of Microsoft Outlook has been patched, and should in theory now work correctly. Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Dec 2 15:15:12 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 16:15:12 +0100 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: <2A626AC1645@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227043153.23782.17268455761644499166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lailita du Perron, That is indeed a problem. In Europe, "An Urdu speaker" is someone who reports him or herself as such, or who studies Urdu as the mother tongue subject at school. I doubt anyone has ever surveyed actual language use among South Asian Muslims in Europe, and members of the community do not always give importance to the language spoken in the home, because Urdu is a symbol of their cultural and religious identity. For example, a Panjabi-speaking Pakistani in Norway would not report Panjabi as his mother tongue, because Urdu is his South Asian literary language, and also the language he would like his children to learn to read (in addition to Norwegian and English). In South Asia, "Urdu speaker" should mean "mother-tongue Urdu speaker" (as opposed to speakers of one of the provincial languages). Even there, different languages are used for different purposes and one might well consider himself a Panjabi speaker at home and an Urdu speaker in the office. All the statistics are badly affected by these blurred definitions, unfortunately we do not have more accurate information. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt > Following on from the messages on the number of Urdu speakers in >various countries, I am puzzled as to what is the 'official' or indeed >accepted definition of an 'Urdu speaker'. > >Lalita du Perron >Dept of South Asian Studies >SOAS, University of London *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 2 17:04:47 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 18:04:47 +0100 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043167.23782.7217095094741973185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmania wrote: > By focussing and looking at only the Indian people, there is a tendency > to label and attribute motives. Why isnt anyone looking at the German > interest in Indian studies ? Is it because somehow that Germans and European > scholars in general do not have any biases and only Indians do ? You should read Sheldon Pollock's paper on this subject: Deep Orientalism? Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj. In: Orientalism and the Postcolonial Predicament. Perspectives on South Asia. Ed. Carol A. Breckenridge and Peter van der Veer. University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia 1993. Pollock deals with German Indology. Trautmann, of course, deals with British prejudice in his book on "Aryans and the British", which I am sure you know. As you will see, a number of Europeans and Americans are aware of Western prejudices. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 2 19:51:49 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 20:51:49 +0100 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043188.23782.8869437271025363037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello again, you are of course perfectly right. This sort of interplay is crucial to understanding Indigenous Aryanism. Knee-jerk usually follows upon knee-jerk. But I don't claim to know the final answer to this history of knee-jerks. I am looking into it and trying to piece it together. What matters to me is not just "private" jingoism - whereever it is - but above all the fact that a political movement "adopts" a past, or a new version of the past, as part of its official ideology. And seen from that point of view, the Indigenous Aryanism is a knee-jerk reaction to Dravidian jingoism. Which does not rule out the fact that the Tamils had good reasons for jerking their own knees! :-) Lars Martin BTW, I have not forgotten your question earlier today. But please give me some time. I have to think a bit. > Dear Lars, > > I would rather say that Dravidian jingoism/chauvinism > of the early 20th century is a knee-jerk reaction to > what the West was doing. > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 2 20:00:46 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 21:00:46 +0100 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043190.23782.12547042365280141221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nath wrote: > > > The reason why we don't = > > believe in them is that the ancients had no knowledge of the necessary = > > principles, nor the technology to make them. > > So, physics and engineering do matter, at times at least. > And we need to point to evidence of metal-working in Andronovo > sites to satisfy Mark Hubey. Not knowing Russian, I have little > ability to read original reports. But isn't there some survey in > English/French/German of Andronovo culture, written >without< > any reference to the ``Aryan problem''? Yes, physics and engineering do matter, and particularly when we are dealing with physical things and processes. However, I have the disturbing feeling that many people in the sciences think that the humanities should function the way natural science functions, and that is not necessarily the case. Cultural and linguistic processes must in many cases be described in a different manner using different methods. For one thing, cultural and historical processes are not subject to "laws" (pace Marx), and even if we assume that these processes function according to statistical trends, we have - at least! - a VERY severe sampling problem when we try to evaluate such trends. Another problem is that we cannot make experiments with the past. BUT: Having said that, I'll say once more what I have said many times already: The humantities (and Indology) could do with a bit of statistics and mathematics. As for physics and engineering, you should have noticed that archaeology uses such methods already. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Dec 2 23:08:39 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 00:08:39 +0100 Subject: thuggees? In-Reply-To: <199812021905.OAA28799@ccat.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227043184.23782.7121446055542516982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:05 2.12.98 -0500, you wrote: >A quick bit of historical evidence can be found in Wilhelm Halbfass' >Tradition and Reflection pp.102-107. > >Loriliai Biernacki >University of Pennsylvania > >According to Jan Seifert: >> >> dear list members, >> i?m looking for information about the thugs (thuggees). >> know bout dasguptas "obscure religuous cults" and a sheet in "journal of >> indian history (is it 29?)". >> where can i find more information? >> thanks in advance >> >> jan seifert >> stud. univ. leipzig >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Useful information on the term "thug" may be found in "Hobson-Jobson. The Anglo-Indian Dictionary", pp. 915-917. On p. 916 data on a classic, but rare, position: Sir William Sleeman's "Ramaseeana; or a Vocabulary of the Peculiar Language used by the Thugs, with an Introduction and Appendix, descriptive of that Fraternity, and of the Measures which have been adopted by the Supreme Government of India for its Suppression", Calcutta, 1836 [I am not aware of any newer edition of this book]. See also William Crooke's "Things Indian. Being Discursive Notes on Various Subjects Connected with India", London, 1906, pp. 473-477 [Indian reprint: Delhi, 1972 - Oriental Books Reprint Corporation (Distributed by Munshiram Manoharlal)]; Crooke's article on Thugs is in part based on W. Sleeman's "Report on Depredations committed by the Thug Gangs". Some additional literature on the subject is to be found in John Campbell Oman's "Cults, Customs and Superstitions of India", Indian Reprint Delhi 1972, pp. 248-252. Try also - I admit I enjoyed reading it - John Masters' "The Deceivers", Penguin Books 1952 [reprinted many times since, and made into a popular film]. In the Postscript to his book [pp. 249-250] Masters says: "There are not many source books about Thuggee. One of them is a novel, first published in 1839, by an officer who had taken part in operations against Thugs: Confessions of a Thug by Meadows Taylor. If my story of this terrible byway of man's religious faith has interested you, you will find more details in three books by Sleeman himself: Ramaseeana, or a Vocabulary of the peculiar language used by Thugs; Report on the depredations committed by the Thug gangs of upper and central India; The Thugs or Phansigars of India, and in one by Sleeman's grandson, Colonel James L. Sleeman - Thug or A Million Murders." Hoping this is of help, Artur Karp From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 3 13:55:25 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 05:55:25 -0800 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043207.23782.4566742750663214713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Fosse writes: *Which does not rule out the fact that *the Tamils had good reasons for jerking their own knees! :-) Your explorations will show that they have to. They are given no other option. :-) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 3 13:55:50 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 05:55:50 -0800 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043209.23782.1014991520651710477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Fosse writes: *Which does not rule out the fact that *the Tamils had good reasons for jerking their own knees! :-) Your readings will show they have to. They have no other choice. :-) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Dec 3 11:42:24 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 06:42:24 -0500 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043205.23782.4605913879583040223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While the chart given by Samar Abbas looks nice, it has major historical problems. By tracing the origins of Urdu exclusively to Arabic, Persian, and Turkic, the chart overlooks the main core of the language. In its basic grammatical core and basic vocabulary, Urdu is an Indo-Aryan language, with Arabic, Persian, and Turkic features superimposed on this basic IA core. It is not that Urdu borrowed the IA features as a subsequent phenomenon. The IA base absorbed the other features to become a distinct sub-variety of IA. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Samar Abbas wrote: > To answer this question, one must first define `Urdu'. The famlly tree > of Urdu is given below: > > Arabic Persian Turkic > \ | / > Zaban-e-Urdu (`Urdu') ca.1000 AD > | > Hindustani (or `Hindi' in short) ca.1200 AD > / / / \ \ > Punjabi Avadhi Delhvi Dakhini Sharqi > Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani > / | > Punjabi Mughal Hindustani > ( ca. 1700s) > | > Khari Boli > or Nagari Hindi `High Hindi' > (ca. 1900s ) > > > Urdu is a contraction of `Zaban-e-Urdu' (`Language of the Camp') which > arose in the camps of Mahmud of Ghazni in the 10th century as a common > language of the Turkic, Afghan, Arab and Persian ghazi liberators. At this > stage, it only contained Islamicate words (Arabic, Persian, Turkic, > Pashto) and was only written in Arabic. > > When these persons established the Hindustani Califate of Delhi (which > lasted for almost 1000 years and is one of the greatest empires the world > has seen), this langauge became de facto national language of the Islamic > Empire of Hindustan (Hindustan = `Land of the Indus' in Persian; later > erroneously rendered `Land of Hindus' by the British), ie. India north of > the Narmada. Thus Urdu absorbed a number of words from the Prakrit > langauges (Vangi/Bengali, Braj, Kanauji, Ayodhyi etc.), Vedic langauges > (Rigvedic, Samavedic, Yajurvedic, etc.), Pali, Sanskrit, Dravidian > languages etc. Thus this simplified Urdu (still more than 80 % > Perso-Arabic) became the national language of North India (Hindustan), and > thus came to be known as Hindustani or Hindi in short. It replaced the > Prakrits in Hindustan (Braj, Kannauji etc.) and became in fact the mother > tongue of most Hindustanis (somthing English has not done). It is the most > liberal langauge as far as vocabulary is concerned, and only English has a > source as wide. > > In the 19th century the British encouraged Brahman fundamentalists who > enforced the Prakrit Nagari script for the use of Hindustani (which till > then had been always written in the Perso-Arabic script). This Nagari > Hindustani which arose out of Mughal Hindustani is called Khari Boli or > Nagari Hindi. The introduction of the Devanagari script naturally led to > many problems which still persist (eg. more than 500 characters required > etc.: Madan Gopal in his book `This Hindi and Dev Nagari' has fully > documented the grave defects of the Nagari script), as did the > introduction of more Sanskrit words which the common man did not > understand. Although it is the official langauge of the Indian Republic, > it is only spoken by a very small percentage of the population, who prefer > Hindustani. This Hindustani is still predominantly written in the Arabic > script, but smaller fractions use Devanagari (Khari Boli dialect), Roman > (Christians and Britishers), Bengali etc. > > Sometimes the simplified Urdu called Hindustani is also referred to as > Urdu, but technically Urdu is the pure Islamicate language without the > pre-Islamic influence. So the number of speakers of Urdu is practically > the entire emigrant Indian population, who know some Urdu or Hindustani. > The use is by no means dead, thus Hindustani films are spreading the usage > of Urdu. So asking about the number of Urdu speakers is like asking about > the number of speakers of Anglo-Saxon: Practically every Englishman > would understand some Old Anglo-Saxon since it is the presursor of > English, so similarly practically every North Indian (and most South > Indians at that) understands some Zaban-e-Urdu since it is the presursor > of his/her mother tongue, Hindustani. > > Thus there is only a linguistic definition of Urdu, no such thing as an > `official definition'. Official definitions have very little meaning esp. > in South Asia; thus the official national langauge of India is Khari Boli, > a Sanskritised version of Hindustani,; but it is to all effects and > purposes a dead language (despite official support and the money wasted in > propagating it). > > Samar > > On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Lalita du Perron wrote: > > > Following on from the messages on the number of Urdu speakers in > > various countries, I am puzzled as to what is the 'official' or indeed > > accepted definition of an 'Urdu speaker'. > > > > Lalita du Perron > > Dept of South Asian Studies > > SOAS, University of London > > > From dkprint at 4MIS.COM Thu Dec 3 12:32:34 1998 From: dkprint at 4MIS.COM (dkprint) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 07:32:34 -0500 Subject: Address Prof Namvar Singh Message-ID: <161227043203.23782.294099409210326596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Th. de Bruijn wrote: > > Dear Indologists, > > A small question: does anyone know if prof Namvar Singh still teaches at JNU, New Delhi and does anyone happen to have his address (e-mail or snail-mail). > > Many thanks in advance. > > Thomas de Bruijn Prof. Namwar Singh's address 32-A Shivalik Apartment SFS Alakhananda, Kalkaji New Delhi - 110 019 Thanks, Susheel K. Mittal Director D. K. Printworld (P) Ltd. 'Sri Kunj', F-52, Bali Nagar New Delhi - 110015 From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 3 14:58:04 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 08:58:04 -0600 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043215.23782.14362750282320005721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Dr.Zydenbos: I do not have an inclination to get into arguments over this issue and am sure that you arent also. I do however have to briefly respond because your arguments were most unacceptable. If you had a fair mind - you would have pointed out the viciousness in the attacks against Indian scholars, like BB.Lal and others. Just go thru the Indology archives when you get the time. Also, look up the Indo-Aryans of South Asia, edited by Erdosy. You will find numerous attacks on Indian scholars for their views and attributing policital motives. Mallory calls Gamkrelidze and Ivanov "idiosyncratic" and then attributes political motives to Indian scholars who argue that there was no Aryan invasion/migration. I would also suggest that you talk to Herr Zimmer(Univ of Bonn) about viciousness. I find it amazing that people are so eager and willing to attribute political motives against Indian scholars, but do not have the courage to look at their own motives and prejudices. As for your comments about Swami Vivekananda - I think that they do not even merit a response. Remember the time when Swamiji was writing, the late 19th century, a time when "race sciences" were the in thing. Swamiji was far ahead of his time and does not have to be defended. Considering that Swami Vivekananda was a religious reformer, compare what Swami Vivekananda wrote to what Christian missionaries were writing at that time and you can make your own judgement. Once again, Please, atleast take some time to read the various current views on the so called Indo-European people and the PIE homeland, before arguing that everything has been decided and agreed upon. Subrahmanya. *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Thu Dec 3 14:21:01 1998 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 09:21:01 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043213.23782.16477740919030705844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> OK, but does Brahma really have a will? Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Vielle Christophe wrote: > Since that daivam results in fine from the supreme will of BrahmA > (as DhAtR or VidhAtR) in the epic, especially in the Mbh, the concept is > very close with the Greek Dios boul?, the supreme will of Zeus in the > Iliad. The "divine will" could be a translation (the two ideas are compared > in the recent book by myself: Le mytho-cycle h?ro?que dans l'aire > indo-europ?enne: correspondances et transformations hell?no-aryennes, > Louvain-la-Neuve: Peeters Press, 1996, Publications de l'Institut > orientaliste de Louvain 46, p. 119-121). > Christophe Vielle > > > > >On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Kevin McGrath wrote: > > > >> Dear List Members, > >> > >> Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? > >> > >> 'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to > >> pre-classical kshatriya culture. > >> > >> I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is > >> not conclusive. > >> > >> Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is > >> action for an epic kshatriya. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> Kevin McGrath. > >> > >> > >> Sanskrit Dept. > >> Harvard College. > >> > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 3 09:26:30 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 09:26:30 +0000 Subject: soc.history.early-modern (fwd) Message-ID: <161227043192.23782.8577623818687747901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 18:52:00 -0600 From: Curt Emanuel To: editor at chass.utoronto.ca, ingrao at omni.cc.purdue.edu, jim.cocks at louisville.edu, k_besio at colby.edu, saillant at pilot.msu.edu, SMintz at uh.edu, d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk, barkerp at ou.edu, blackflag at mindspring.com, bcj at psu.edu Subject: soc.history.early-modern Dear Listowner, Please pass the following message on to your mailing list. And a big thank you to all of you for your assistance with getting the word out to your respective mailing lists. It IS appreciated. Curt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For those of you who are interested, the proposed Usenet group soc.history.early-modern passed its vote. The group has appeared on some news servers. I encourage mailing list members to join in on the discussion - there's not much yet, but I'm confident that will change. If you look for the group and don't find it, then your news server probably hasn't started carrying it yet. Sometimes it takes a couple of weeks for new groups to show up, however you may want to drop a note to your news administrator asking them to start carrying it. Thanks to all of you who participated in the news.groups discussions and cast a vote. -- Curt Emanuel (cemanuel at accs.net) From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 3 18:06:51 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 10:06:51 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043237.23782.13404799264598862900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > p151., col 2 para 3: ``The horse chariot ... Sintasha cemetry had > two wheels with ten spokes each (fig 8.20) In the ancient Near East > most chariots continued to have only four spokes until aboput 1400 BC. > Thus the chariotry of the early Andronovo of the northern steppes > was more advanced.'' Note the ``thus''. <<< Russian cars built for Siberia were better for cold climates. The concept of the Greek trireme came from the Assyrian direme which was an improvement over the single layer boats. To my mind the direme was a bigger invention. After seeing two decks, thinking of 3 decks is not hard. Adding extra spokes for rough riding over the steppes doesn't say much about levels of technology. Cities had things like roads and it was probably not necessary to have 10 spokes. This is like comparing a jeep 4 wheel drive against a Maserati and concluding the jeep is more advanced. >>> Can I then understand that Sintashta chariots are more advanced than the Neareast variety?? To make sense, Steppe-valas added more spokes. A technolgical advance. (For cities 4 would suffice; Steepes needed more) Regards, N. Ganesan -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Dec 3 18:23:14 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 10:23:14 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043233.23782.8645034929659789681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Subrahmania wrote: > > > I find it amazing that people are so eager and willing to attribute > > political motives against Indian scholars, but do not have the > > courage to look at their own motives and prejudices. > > So is it really only those blasted Westerners? > Subrahmania, was basically asking you the same thing in reverse (see above). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Dec 3 20:30:35 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 10:30:35 -1000 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043248.23782.4992904537707138977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > OK, but does Brahma really have a will? And am I mentioned in it? Yours deservingly, Raja. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 3 18:40:41 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 10:40:41 -0800 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan Message-ID: <161227043239.23782.2995413788337362709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Prof. Deshpande for telling us the situation in 19th c. Maharashtra. Please publish the study: "Clashing Reconstructions of History: Arya and Non-Arya in 19th century Maharashtra". Heard that the Sanskrit scholar and Indologist, R. N. Dandekar interpreted Ramayana as a clash between Northern Aryas and Southern Rakshasas. On the opposite side, 'Periyar' E. V. Ramasamy Naicker was interpreting Ramayana in his own way. See P. Richman on Periyar's Ramayana in Many Ramayanas (Unic. California press) Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:59:52 -0500 From: Madhav Deshpande The "indigenous Aryan" debate has a tendency to get vicious for a very simple reason. For people of Indian origin, this issue has close connections with their own perceptions of their identiy. Before the modern period, there were other "vicious debates" in different parts of India. For instance, in Maharashtra, many vicious debates developed in the 16th and 17th century over whether there were true Kshatriyas around and whether a particular contemporary caste was or was not to be counted among Shudras. The ruling Maratha rulers like Shivaji were denied the status of Kshatriya by many local Brahmanas, including the later Peshwahs who became the prime ministers of this dynasty. This was prompted in part by the Brahmana claim that in the Kali age there were only two Varnas to be found: Brahmana and Shudra. The debate over the status of Kayasthas was equally vicious. The Brahmanas of Maharashtra were among the first to begin using the term Arya as a self-referring term in the modern era, and this term was understood within the context of the contemporary Brahmana beliefs about there being only two Varnas in the Kali age. The Brahmana and Shudra were often replaced with Arya and non-Arya in the 19th century writings. Later, the Aryanism proliferated to other movements such as the Arya Samaj, the Hindu Maha Sabha, the RSS, and BJP/VHP etc. But one can historically look at the roots of the ideologies in the 19th century. Madhav Deshpande --------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU Thu Dec 3 15:49:48 1998 From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 10:49:48 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043217.23782.13374242922446364778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me preface this note by asking that anyone who sent me personal email between last Wednesday 11/25 and Monday 11/30 to retransmit that mail as it was rejected or discarded by the system here. Also would everyone who corresponds with me personally note the new email address jfitzge1 at utk.edu and use it to replace the old one. Thanks, Jim Fitzgerald ================================ Kevin McGrath asked "Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'?" Even when we limit "daiva" to the 'fate-topos' (it is sometimes used in other ways; e.g., at 12.121.13, in a presentation of the nature of daNDa [the king's 'rod of force,' i.e., here, "punishment," sometimes "military force" or "violence" in general] "parama daNDa" is said to be a daivam that looks like a blazing fire and the passage goes on with the description of ugra and adbhuta bhuuta/daiva), it is not used to refer to a precisely defined, univocal concept in the MBh. The characters do talk about action a great deal in the course of the MBh, and one of the recurring themes of those discussions juxtaposes human initiative (karman, puraSakaara, utthaana ["energetic effort, exertion;" mistranslated by van Buitenen as "resurrection" at 3.33.6 & 7]) to various "agencies" beyond human ken and control--daiva, diSTa, vidhaatr, yadrcchaa, haTha, krtakarman (at MBh 12.56.14-15 Arjunamisra glosses daiva with "pre-existing karma," ["daivam praagbhaviiyam karma"; and I might add, he here glosses "utthaanena puruSakaareNa"]). Daiva seems to be the most general way of referring to these agencies, and of course one of the fundamental issues it poses is whether humans should bother to pursue their own artha-s with their own efforts or not. Shulman's insightful essay in the Heesterman Festschrift shows the MBh coming at these issues from a different angle, and his juxtaposition of the words daiva and devana certainly is provocative. I don't have the indo-germanisch background to evaluate Mayrhofer's idg etymologies behind "diiv -- spielen, mit 'Wuerfeln'" (for devana) and (for deva/daiva) "dyav -- Himmel, Himmelsgottheit, Vater Himmel, Tag," but the indo-germanisch reconstructions look like they might be sufficiently close to justify wondering if the root diiv might not be historically connected to dyav. But even if that is not viable in terms of historical linguistics, one must suspect that many of the poets heard and postulated a connection there. Mr. McGrath postulates that KarNa is "somewhat 'archaic' as a hero" and KarNa's "many references to daivam are thus, for me, somewhat pre-classical in a sense." While I certainly don't think that the MBh we have is the product of a single compositional effort, we need more than hunches to discuss meaningfully any postulated history of the text. While Mary Carroll Smith tried to articulate an evidentiary framework for the discussion of the MBh's history through the diffential analysis of triSTubhs (advancing the work of earlier scholars, such as Edgerton), she has so far not delivered a convincing argument about the "archaic kSatriya warrior code" at the heart of "India's Sacred Song." I think differential triSTubh analysis is one good kind of evidence for pursuing a discussion of the MBh's history; but it hasn't yet been sufficiently pursued and developed as an analytic tool. So, at least for now, I have to agree with the sceptical question Alf Hiltebeitel posed in response to McGrath's initial post. Jim Fitzgerald ======================================================================== James L. Fitzgerald jfitzge1 at utk.edu Religious Studies Phone: office: 423-974-6982; 423-974-2466; 423-690-9525 University of Tennessee home 423-539-2881 501 McClung Tower Fax: 423-974-0965 Knoxville, TN 37996-0450 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 3 19:03:38 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:03:38 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043242.23782.15178309868755960744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All I am suggesting is that there is a possibility that more-spoked chariots are advanced than the less-spoked ones. As Mr. Mark Hubey has outlined, it is not nonsense after all. I don't think anybody knows the direction of of chariot technology. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Thu Dec 3 10:04:35 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:04:35 +0100 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043200.23782.4925653783092227831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List, I am reluctant to get into this debate, however it needs to be pointed out that most scholars, including most (but not all) South Asian scholars of Urdu have accepted an Indo-Aryan pedigree for all of the following: (1) Zabaan-e-Dehlavi (the precursor of Zabaan-e-Urdu), spoken in Delhi under the Delhi Sultanate (1211 to 1504), carried to the Deccan and spoken there as Dakhini, and surviving today as Kaarkhandaari Urdu; (2) Zabaan-e-Urdu-e-Mu'alla (its successor), developing in Delhi after the shifting of the Mughal Court there in 1648, and differing from Zabaan-e-Dehlavi in having more influence from the dialect of Agra, where the court was formerly; (3) Modern Urdu as standardized by the poets, written first in Delhi and later also in Lucknow, and first mentioned as "Urdu" in a couplet written by the poet Mushhafi (1750-1824), dated to ca. 1776. Khari Boli is the speech on which the Zabaan-e-Dehlavi is based, and after the shifting of the Mughal Court to Delhi it survived as a sort of country cousin of Zabaan-e-Dehlavi. Standard Urdu has abandoned many Khari Boli forms. The identification of Urdu as Indo-Aryan is based on analysis of its grammar (verbs, nouns, pronouns, postpositions) and its core vocabulary, as contained in texts. Modern Urdu is indeed quite Persianized (and Arabicized), but this was a gradual process. The poems of Amir Khusrau (1236-1324), which are usually considered the first Urdu texts, are not heavily Persianized. The poets of the Delhi School of Urdu poetry (Mir, Sauda etc.) wrote a somewhat less Persianized Urdu than those of the later Lucknow School. The elite of the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire spoke Persian, and considered Zabaan-e-Urdu an Indian (Hindi, Hindavi) language. Hindi and Hindavi are Persian words. Standard Hindi based on Khari Boli is a modern language which has been around for some two centuries. Before being Sanskritized it was almost identical to Urdu, but without the Perso-Arabic vocabulary. Before the evolution of Standard Hindi, the literary languages for north Indian Hindus were Braj Bhasha, Avadhi and Rajasthani. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt > To answer this question, one must first define `Urdu'. The famlly tree >of Urdu is given below: > > Arabic Persian Turkic > \ | / > Zaban-e-Urdu (`Urdu') ca.1000 AD > | > Hindustani (or `Hindi' in short) ca.1200 AD > / / / \ \ > Punjabi Avadhi Delhvi Dakhini Sharqi > Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani > / | > Punjabi Mughal Hindustani > ( ca. 1700s) > | > Khari Boli > or Nagari Hindi `High Hindi' > (ca. 1900s ) > > > Urdu is a contraction of `Zaban-e-Urdu' (`Language of the Camp') which >arose in the camps of Mahmud of Ghazni in the 10th century as a common >language of the Turkic, Afghan, Arab and Persian ghazi liberators. At this >stage, it only contained Islamicate words (Arabic, Persian, Turkic, >Pashto) and was only written in Arabic. > > When these persons established the Hindustani Califate of Delhi (which >lasted for almost 1000 years and is one of the greatest empires the world >has seen), this langauge became de facto national language of the Islamic >Empire of Hindustan (Hindustan = `Land of the Indus' in Persian; later >erroneously rendered `Land of Hindus' by the British), ie. India north of >the Narmada. Thus Urdu absorbed a number of words from the Prakrit >langauges (Vangi/Bengali, Braj, Kanauji, Ayodhyi etc.), Vedic langauges >(Rigvedic, Samavedic, Yajurvedic, etc.), Pali, Sanskrit, Dravidian >languages etc. Thus this simplified Urdu (still more than 80 % >Perso-Arabic) became the national language of North India (Hindustan), and >thus came to be known as Hindustani or Hindi in short. It replaced the >Prakrits in Hindustan (Braj, Kannauji etc.) and became in fact the mother >tongue of most Hindustanis (somthing English has not done). It is the most >liberal langauge as far as vocabulary is concerned, and only English has a >source as wide. > > In the 19th century the British encouraged Brahman fundamentalists who >enforced the Prakrit Nagari script for the use of Hindustani (which till >then had been always written in the Perso-Arabic script). This Nagari >Hindustani which arose out of Mughal Hindustani is called Khari Boli or >Nagari Hindi. The introduction of the Devanagari script naturally led to >many problems which still persist (eg. more than 500 characters required >etc.: Madan Gopal in his book `This Hindi and Dev Nagari' has fully >documented the grave defects of the Nagari script), as did the >introduction of more Sanskrit words which the common man did not >understand. Although it is the official langauge of the Indian Republic, >it is only spoken by a very small percentage of the population, who prefer >Hindustani. This Hindustani is still predominantly written in the Arabic >script, but smaller fractions use Devanagari (Khari Boli dialect), Roman >(Christians and Britishers), Bengali etc. > > Sometimes the simplified Urdu called Hindustani is also referred to as >Urdu, but technically Urdu is the pure Islamicate language without the >pre-Islamic influence. So the number of speakers of Urdu is practically >the entire emigrant Indian population, who know some Urdu or Hindustani. >The use is by no means dead, thus Hindustani films are spreading the usage >of Urdu. So asking about the number of Urdu speakers is like asking about >the number of speakers of Anglo-Saxon: Practically every Englishman >would understand some Old Anglo-Saxon since it is the presursor of >English, so similarly practically every North Indian (and most South >Indians at that) understands some Zaban-e-Urdu since it is the presursor >of his/her mother tongue, Hindustani. > > Thus there is only a linguistic definition of Urdu, no such thing as an >`official definition'. Official definitions have very little meaning esp. >in South Asia; thus the official national langauge of India is Khari Boli, >a Sanskritised version of Hindustani,; but it is to all effects and >purposes a dead language (despite official support and the money wasted in >propagating it). > >Samar > >On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Lalita du Perron wrote: > >> Following on from the messages on the number of Urdu speakers in >> various countries, I am puzzled as to what is the 'official' or indeed >> accepted definition of an 'Urdu speaker'. >> >> Lalita du Perron >> Dept of South Asian Studies >> SOAS, University of London >> *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 3 19:05:26 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:05:26 -0800 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan Message-ID: <161227043244.23782.11047820439841779470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In 18th century, 'Saivaite adheenams of Tamilnadu were publishing Sanskrit books on issues like: Whether Shudras can become Head of Religious Mutts? Whether Shudras can receive Dhiiksha? Whether they can ride a palanquin? etc., The Mataathipathis were Vellalas. In varnasramachandrika, many quotes were collected from Saivagamas. K. Koppedrayer has a paper: Can a Shudra ride a palanquin? It will be interesting to collect and publish all the quotes on Shudras in the dharmasastras, the agamas, 'Saivaite and Srivaishnavaite handlings of the Shudra issue, what philosophers like Sankara say about shudras. Has this been done? In 19th century, Nadars were fighting to show that they were really kshatryas. Their profession was toddy-tapping. Izhavas in Kerala and Nadars in Tamilnadu were fighting for the right of their women to wear breast-cloths. Breast cloth controversies and Christianity's spread broke the neck of Caste imperialism in Kerala. Vellalas enlisted Brahmanas to write that Nadars who were by economic successes moving up in the caste ladder. Kaasivaasi CentinAta Ayyar wrote several booklets to claim that Nadars are shudras. He showed it from several Sanskrit sources. There were bitter fights in the Newspapers run by Christian missionaries in 19th century in Jaffna, Colombo, Madras (and Burma & Malaysia to a little extent) between Ramalinga Vallalar's AruTpA vs. Arumuka Navalar (Jaffna) calling it as maruTpA. On the face of it, - these court cases, public debates, newspaper accounts, letters to the editor (often under assumed names; anyone in Indology??), the controversy was whether or not to include Vallalar's poetic corpus inside of 'Saiva canon called TirumuRais. It is not that simple. But really it is a fight between conservatives and liberals. Heavy opposition from Liberals asserting that no Tamil is a Shudra and one cannot be an antaNan2 (brahmana) by the accident of birth. They showed that varNa and jAti are Aryan terms and Tamil has no equivalent originals. A book, varuNa cintAmaNi running to 900 papges, was produced showing Vellalas as Shudras. (Many vellalas gladly wrote why they are shudra in that book along with majority contribution from Brahmanas). Before the decaying newspapers, court records wither away as time marches on, hope some PhD theses are done on this important caste history of 19th century. Nobody has done it so far. Of course, the caste tensions and accomodations can be seen clearly in Srivaishnavism's ubhaya vedanta philosophy. Read vaarttaa maalai anthology and Ramanuja's life. The Telugu country's clashes between Aryan ideology's sides are well described in Velcheru Narayanrao's translation of Somanatha's BasavapuraaNamu. Social reformers in the South have been calling for reforms within Hinduism. That is, Priesthood and Sankaracharyaship should become available for any Hindu, not for a particular group determined just by birth. For Hinduism to become modern, the only qualifications to be a priest or a Sankaracharya, must be 1) be a Hindu and 2) be proficient in Samskrit and few more Indian langauges. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:59:52 -0500 From: Madhav Deshpande The "indigenous Aryan" debate has a tendency to get vicious for a very simple reason. For people of Indian origin, this issue has close connections with their own perceptions of their identiy. Before the modern period, there were other "vicious debates" in different parts of India. For instance, in Maharashtra, many vicious debates developed in the 16th and 17th century over whether there were true Kshatriyas around and whether a particular contemporary caste was or was not to be counted among Shudras. The ruling Maratha rulers like Shivaji were denied the status of Kshatriya by many local Brahmanas, including the later Peshwahs who became the prime ministers of this dynasty. This was prompted in part by the Brahmana claim that in the Kali age there were only two Varnas to be found: Brahmana and Shudra. The debate over the status of Kayasthas was equally vicious. The Brahmanas of Maharashtra were among the first to begin using the term Arya as a self-referring term in the modern era, and this term was understood within the context of the contemporary Brahmana beliefs about there being only two Varnas in the Kali age. The Brahmana and Shudra were often replaced with Arya and non-Arya in the 19th century writings. Later, the Aryanism proliferated to other movements such as the Arya Samaj, the Hindu Maha Sabha, the RSS, and BJP/VHP etc. But one can historically look at the roots of the ideologies in the 19th century. Madhav Deshpande --------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL Thu Dec 3 16:16:18 1998 From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (TB) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:16:18 -0500 Subject: attachment Message-ID: <161227043194.23782.6473914004822461188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, The Indology list has an excellent memory in the form of a searchable archive. Look what i found there: my own previous message on attachments. The problem is ancient and it is a joke that the Microsoft helpdesk can not solve it. My posting presupposes that the sender of the unintended attachments uses MS Outlook or Outlook Express as email client. The problem is that this program likes to send formatting options in email-messages to other users of the program. As I also use Windows messaging, Mr Fosse's mails are beautifully laid out. For those who read e-mail as it should be: without formatting, plain ASCII, the formatting is send in the form of an attached file in RTF-format. The producer of attachments should turn the option of sending RTF-files off in his Address Book, or in the options tabel of the Internetmail service. then he will only send plain ASCII (or ANSI in some cases) as email, without attachments. The suggestion of using more straightforward mail clients like Eudora and Pegasus for discussion lists is absolutely useful. Use the fancy stuff for private e-mail, it only takes up bandwidth. Greetings and good luck Thomas de Bruijn This is the archived message: On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:42:52 -0500 you wrote: knip> >Windows Messaging. I write my postings with the Compose >command (Reply to >Sender), then I send it to outbox, and from there to the server. The >attachment may be of the following character knip> To all attachment-valas, By default Outlook sends the text of an e-mail-message together with an RTF-file of the same as an attachment. You have to specify in your Adressbook for each entry that you do not want to send RTF format messages. Uncheck the box with this option. This is one of the ways Micro$oft makes you aware that you have not bought their stuff. I.m.h.o. Outlook is one of the worst e-mail clients around, most freeware programs such as Eudora Lite and Pegasus are much more easy to use. Thomas de Bruijn From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 3 19:26:00 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:26:00 -0800 Subject: E. Said's Orientalism Message-ID: <161227043246.23782.15820756808156556354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Want to read critiques, both for and against, on E. Said's Orientalism thesis. Any references will be appreciated. Recently, R. Zydenbos told that this has been exploded. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Thu Dec 3 16:46:33 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:46:33 -0500 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043223.23782.4161117365548495089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The criticism of Vivekananda reminds of a question that I have asked before: Why is Whitney, in spite of his well-known biases which are no less obnoxious than anything Vivekananda might have said and are full of `essentialist' attributions to `Hindu Grammarians', the standard grammar book even today? It is not as if replacements do not exist, for example Renou's two books. It is not as if it is not without effect. I was told, in the IE list, that Panini is unreliable as a guide to synchronic grammar or list of roots. I can point to a recent book which attributes the meaning ``used to go'' to `agacchat', to be contrasted with `tena gatam'. I have known linguists who thought that the syntactic role of the so-called pluperfect in RV is similar to the formation of the same name in European languages. --- Nath From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Dec 3 19:48:59 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:48:59 -0800 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043240.23782.17609294828998628497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > > p151., col 2 para 3: ``The horse chariot ... Sintasha cemetry had > > two wheels with ten spokes each (fig 8.20) In the ancient Near East > > most chariots continued to have only four spokes until aboput 1400 BC. > > Thus the chariotry of the early Andronovo of the northern steppes > > was more advanced.'' Note the ``thus''. > > <<< > Russian cars built for Siberia were better for cold climates. The > concept of the Greek trireme came from the Assyrian direme which was > an improvement over the single layer boats. To my mind the direme was > a bigger invention. After seeing two decks, thinking of 3 decks is not > hard. Adding extra spokes for rough riding over the steppes doesn't say > much about levels of technology. Cities had things like roads and it > was probably not necessary to have 10 spokes. This is like comparing a > jeep > 4 wheel drive against a Maserati and concluding the jeep is more > advanced. > >>> > > Can I then understand that Sintashta chariots are > more advanced than the Neareast variety?? If the Sintashta remains were indeed chariots, then that is a valid question. > > To make sense, Steppe-valas added more spokes. > A technolgical advance. > (For cities 4 would suffice; Steepes needed > more) > This seems to presuppose (the word "added") that the Sintashta "chariots" were derived from the Near Eastern ones. However, what if the Near Eastern ones were developed from Sintashta? That would mean reducing the number of excess spokes (streamlining?), producing less weight, work and waste. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala > -- > Best Regards, > Mark > -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged > material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, > or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you > received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the > material from any computer. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Thu Dec 3 16:57:25 1998 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:57:25 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: <004901be1ed4$8f232de0$c811a980@jfitzge1> Message-ID: <161227043227.23782.7108178964134433939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The discussion on daiva should not omit to mention the provocative and insightful treatment by Madeleine Biardeau in her "Nala et Damayanti: Heros epiques," Parts 1 and 2, Indo-Iranian Journal vol. 27 (1984), 247-74 and vol. 28 (1985), 1-34. As I recall, the chief discussion would be in Part 2. Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, James L. Fitzgerald wrote: > Let me preface this note by asking that anyone who sent me > personal email between last Wednesday 11/25 and Monday 11/30 to > retransmit that mail as it was rejected or discarded by the > system here. Also would everyone who corresponds with me > personally note the new email address jfitzge1 at utk.edu and use it to > replace the old one. Thanks, Jim Fitzgerald > > ================================ > > Kevin McGrath asked "Does anyone have a good translation for epic > 'daivam'?" > > Even when we limit "daiva" to the 'fate-topos' (it is sometimes > used in other ways; e.g., at 12.121.13, in a presentation of the > nature of daNDa [the king's 'rod of force,' i.e., here, > "punishment," sometimes "military force" or "violence" in > general] "parama daNDa" is said to be a daivam that looks like a > blazing fire and the passage goes on with the description of ugra > and adbhuta bhuuta/daiva), it is not used to refer to a precisely > defined, univocal concept in the MBh. The characters do talk > about action a great deal in the course of the MBh, and one of > the recurring themes of those discussions juxtaposes human > initiative (karman, puraSakaara, utthaana ["energetic effort, > exertion;" mistranslated by van Buitenen as "resurrection" at > 3.33.6 & 7]) to various "agencies" beyond human ken and > control--daiva, diSTa, vidhaatr, yadrcchaa, haTha, krtakarman (at > MBh 12.56.14-15 Arjunamisra glosses daiva with "pre-existing > karma," ["daivam praagbhaviiyam karma"; and I might add, he here > glosses "utthaanena puruSakaareNa"]). > > Daiva seems to be the most general way of referring to these > agencies, and of course one of the fundamental issues it poses is > whether humans should bother to pursue their own artha-s with > their own efforts or not. Shulman's insightful essay in the > Heesterman Festschrift shows the MBh coming at these issues from > a different angle, and his juxtaposition of the words daiva and > devana certainly is provocative. I don't have the > indo-germanisch background to evaluate Mayrhofer's idg > etymologies behind "diiv -- spielen, mit 'Wuerfeln'" (for devana) > and (for deva/daiva) "dyav -- Himmel, Himmelsgottheit, Vater > Himmel, Tag," but the indo-germanisch reconstructions look like > they might be sufficiently close to justify wondering if the root > diiv might not be historically connected to dyav. But even if > that is not viable in terms of historical linguistics, one must > suspect that many of the poets heard and postulated a connection > there. > > Mr. McGrath postulates that KarNa is "somewhat > 'archaic' as a hero" and KarNa's "many references to daivam are > thus, for me, somewhat pre-classical in a sense." While I > certainly don't think that the MBh we have is the product of a > single compositional effort, we need more than hunches to discuss > meaningfully any postulated history of the text. While Mary > Carroll Smith tried to articulate an evidentiary framework for > the discussion of the MBh's history through the diffential > analysis of triSTubhs (advancing the work of earlier scholars, > such as Edgerton), she has so far not delivered a convincing > argument about the "archaic kSatriya warrior code" at the heart > of "India's Sacred Song." I think differential triSTubh analysis > is one good kind of evidence for pursuing a discussion of the > MBh's history; but it hasn't yet been sufficiently pursued and > developed as an analytic tool. So, at least for now, I have to > agree with the sceptical question Alf Hiltebeitel posed in > response to McGrath's initial post. > > Jim Fitzgerald > > ========================================================================= > > James L. Fitzgerald jfitzge1 at utk.edu > Religious Studies Phone: office: 423-974-6982; > 423-974-2466; 423-690-9525 > University of Tennessee home 423-539-2881 > 501 McClung Tower Fax: 423-974-0965 > Knoxville, TN 37996-0450 > From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Thu Dec 3 16:59:23 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 11:59:23 -0500 Subject: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043225.23782.5675965334104138360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > p151., col 2 para 3: ``The horse chariot ... Sintasha cemetry had > two wheels with ten spokes each (fig 8.20) In the ancient Near East > most chariots continued to have only four spokes until aboput 1400 BC. > Thus the chariotry of the early Andronovo of the northern steppes > was more advanced.'' Note the ``thus''. Russian cars built for Siberia were better for cold climates. The concept of the Greek trireme came from the Assyrian direme which was an improvement over the single layer boats. To my mind the direme was a bigger invention. After seeing two decks, thinking of 3 decks is not hard. Adding extra spokes for rough riding over the steppes doesn't say much about levels of technology. Cities had things like roads and it was probably not necessary to have 10 spokes. This is like comparing a jeep 4 wheel drive against a Maserati and concluding the jeep is more advanced. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Thu Dec 3 17:06:28 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 12:06:28 -0500 Subject: aryan invasion Message-ID: <161227043229.23782.2751660391319392877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > Please, read Spruytte's ``Early Harness systems''. > Wooden axles, from suitable trees are durable enough. I am a mechanical engineer. Wood is anisotropic. It's strength runs lengthwise. Either it has to be cut into planks and semi-circular half-wheels have to be cut out of it and then fashioned into wheels or the wheel has to be kept together by something else like metal. In any case, something that falls apart in the steppes in the middle of the winter thousands of kilometers away from civilization would be hard to fix. It is likely that sturdier versions of carts were made to nomad specifications. > I am not contesting that metal tools would be required. > I am just not convinced that they were lacking in the steppes, > whether imported or made locally or both. It is possible that like every other technology the knowledge of wheelmaking spread everywhere and that there were nomadic cartwrights. What is at stake is how anyone could assume that the nomads got these ideas and created them while moving around in treeless steppes and never even knew of the existence of metal. Herodotus reports that the Scythians (?) were cooking meat by putting it in the stomach of the animal. Miziev gives reference to nomads doing this relatively recently as observed by some people. Didn't they have pots, cauldrons etc? That was in the iron age, and Herodotus reports that the Scythians had a humongous cauldron also. If this is happening during the metal age how then could the nomads have built carts? Don't you think that they would fashioned pots for themselves and carried them around instead of using bull stomachs? Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Thu Dec 3 17:11:17 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 12:11:17 -0500 Subject: SV: Is the Aryan Invasion a Myth? Message-ID: <161227043231.23782.17938763969341864025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > using different methods. For one thing, cultural and historical processes are > not subject to "laws" (pace Marx), and even if we assume that these processes > function according to statistical trends, we have - at least! - a VERY severe This is as bad an assumption that they are! But evidence shows indeed that cultural processes do have plenty of determinism even if not at the same level as physical processes. Look at civilization all around you. Why do they all modern civilizations resemble each other? Why do traditional civilizations resemble each other? If they do not, then what exactly causes scholars to create these categories? What you are writing contradicts even what social scientists themselves say and do. What you want to say is something like "we do not yet have equations like Maxwell's Equations of sociology". > sampling problem when we try to evaluate such trends. Another problem is that > we cannot make experiments with the past. That's true enough but it never stopped economists from posing theories and testing them using math and statistics. The only thing stopping social scientists and historical linguists is inertia and obstructionism. BUT: Having said that, I'll say once > more what I have said many times already: The humantities (and Indology) could > do with a bit of statistics and mathematics. As for physics and engineering, > you should have noticed that archaeology uses such methods already. Yes, they should use more :-) -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 3 17:40:39 1998 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 12:40:39 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043235.23782.10405272518602428057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am still uncertain how karma relates to daivam however, where the two meet, in an epic context. K.M. On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Vielle Christophe wrote: > Since that daivam results in fine from the supreme will of BrahmA > (as DhAtR or VidhAtR) in the epic, especially in the Mbh, the concept is > very close with the Greek Dios boul?, the supreme will of Zeus in the > Iliad. The "divine will" could be a translation (the two ideas are compared > in the recent book by myself: Le mytho-cycle h?ro?que dans l'aire > indo-europ?enne: correspondances et transformations hell?no-aryennes, > Louvain-la-Neuve: Peeters Press, 1996, Publications de l'Institut > orientaliste de Louvain 46, p. 119-121). > Christophe Vielle > > > > >On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Kevin McGrath wrote: > > > >> Dear List Members, > >> > >> Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? > >> > >> 'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to > >> pre-classical kshatriya culture. > >> > >> I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is > >> not conclusive. > >> > >> Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is > >> action for an epic kshatriya. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> Kevin McGrath. > >> > >> > >> Sanskrit Dept. > >> Harvard College. > >> > From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Dec 3 18:12:24 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 13:12:24 -0500 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: <2A626AC1645@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227043186.23782.2739811062655618336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To answer this question, one must first define `Urdu'. The famlly tree of Urdu is given below: Arabic Persian Turkic \ | / Zaban-e-Urdu (`Urdu') ca.1000 AD | Hindustani (or `Hindi' in short) ca.1200 AD / / / \ \ Punjabi Avadhi Delhvi Dakhini Sharqi Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani Hindustani / | Punjabi Mughal Hindustani ( ca. 1700s) | Khari Boli or Nagari Hindi `High Hindi' (ca. 1900s ) Urdu is a contraction of `Zaban-e-Urdu' (`Language of the Camp') which arose in the camps of Mahmud of Ghazni in the 10th century as a common language of the Turkic, Afghan, Arab and Persian ghazi liberators. At this stage, it only contained Islamicate words (Arabic, Persian, Turkic, Pashto) and was only written in Arabic. When these persons established the Hindustani Califate of Delhi (which lasted for almost 1000 years and is one of the greatest empires the world has seen), this langauge became de facto national language of the Islamic Empire of Hindustan (Hindustan = `Land of the Indus' in Persian; later erroneously rendered `Land of Hindus' by the British), ie. India north of the Narmada. Thus Urdu absorbed a number of words from the Prakrit langauges (Vangi/Bengali, Braj, Kanauji, Ayodhyi etc.), Vedic langauges (Rigvedic, Samavedic, Yajurvedic, etc.), Pali, Sanskrit, Dravidian languages etc. Thus this simplified Urdu (still more than 80 % Perso-Arabic) became the national language of North India (Hindustan), and thus came to be known as Hindustani or Hindi in short. It replaced the Prakrits in Hindustan (Braj, Kannauji etc.) and became in fact the mother tongue of most Hindustanis (somthing English has not done). It is the most liberal langauge as far as vocabulary is concerned, and only English has a source as wide. In the 19th century the British encouraged Brahman fundamentalists who enforced the Prakrit Nagari script for the use of Hindustani (which till then had been always written in the Perso-Arabic script). This Nagari Hindustani which arose out of Mughal Hindustani is called Khari Boli or Nagari Hindi. The introduction of the Devanagari script naturally led to many problems which still persist (eg. more than 500 characters required etc.: Madan Gopal in his book `This Hindi and Dev Nagari' has fully documented the grave defects of the Nagari script), as did the introduction of more Sanskrit words which the common man did not understand. Although it is the official langauge of the Indian Republic, it is only spoken by a very small percentage of the population, who prefer Hindustani. This Hindustani is still predominantly written in the Arabic script, but smaller fractions use Devanagari (Khari Boli dialect), Roman (Christians and Britishers), Bengali etc. Sometimes the simplified Urdu called Hindustani is also referred to as Urdu, but technically Urdu is the pure Islamicate language without the pre-Islamic influence. So the number of speakers of Urdu is practically the entire emigrant Indian population, who know some Urdu or Hindustani. The use is by no means dead, thus Hindustani films are spreading the usage of Urdu. So asking about the number of Urdu speakers is like asking about the number of speakers of Anglo-Saxon: Practically every Englishman would understand some Old Anglo-Saxon since it is the presursor of English, so similarly practically every North Indian (and most South Indians at that) understands some Zaban-e-Urdu since it is the presursor of his/her mother tongue, Hindustani. Thus there is only a linguistic definition of Urdu, no such thing as an `official definition'. Official definitions have very little meaning esp. in South Asia; thus the official national langauge of India is Khari Boli, a Sanskritised version of Hindustani,; but it is to all effects and purposes a dead language (despite official support and the money wasted in propagating it). Samar On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Lalita du Perron wrote: > Following on from the messages on the number of Urdu speakers in > various countries, I am puzzled as to what is the 'official' or indeed > accepted definition of an 'Urdu speaker'. > > Lalita du Perron > Dept of South Asian Studies > SOAS, University of London > From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 3 20:39:45 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 14:39:45 -0600 Subject: SV: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043249.23782.10957272802306823261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sure that many people on this list are tired of this whole Aryan/Indo-European thing - and so am I - we can pick it up again sometime in the future. There is no point in restating the same views from both sides, and we have more important things to do as well. Lars wrote.. >Would you please enlighten me? > I am afraid, I cannot give you instant moksha at this time :) But, let me give the next best thing -- a quote "....But, the most powerful reason which has kept this theory [i.e IE homeland] alive is that the vast majority of the scholars interested in the subject were Europeans, and the idea that their ancestors could have come from another region simply did not occur to them....... Perhaps the time has come to wrench 'Indo European' prehistory out of the century old scholarly ruts......" Pretty strong indictment, eh ? Guess...who wrote it ? Regards, Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 3 19:40:14 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 14:40:14 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan Message-ID: <161227043257.23782.15906121595095696730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote : Social reformers in the South have been calling for reforms within Hinduism. That is, Priesthood and Sankaracharyaship should become available for any Hindu, not for a particular group determined just by birth. For Hinduism to become modern, the only qualifications to be a priest or a Sankaracharya, must be 1) be a Hindu and 2) be proficient in Samskrit and few more Indian languages. I could not agree more. In fact, one should take process a step further and base the interpretation of caste purely as our scriptures define them, i.e. not by birth but intellectual/physical inclinations. There is no need for people like Mulayam Singh Yadav to be considered a backward caste just as a so-called forward caste can't be one just by being born into one of the Traivarnikas. A Brahmin engaged in trade is not a Brahmin anymore and should not consider himself as such. Of course, this process will take decades if not centuries but it is an ideal well chosen and based on our own scriptures. Ashish From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Thu Dec 3 14:15:11 1998 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 15:15:11 +0100 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043211.23782.1128523285611436993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since that daivam results in fine from the supreme will of BrahmA (as DhAtR or VidhAtR) in the epic, especially in the Mbh, the concept is very close with the Greek Dios boul?, the supreme will of Zeus in the Iliad. The "divine will" could be a translation (the two ideas are compared in the recent book by myself: Le mytho-cycle h?ro?que dans l'aire indo-europ?enne: correspondances et transformations hell?no-aryennes, Louvain-la-Neuve: Peeters Press, 1996, Publications de l'Institut orientaliste de Louvain 46, p. 119-121). Christophe Vielle > >On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Kevin McGrath wrote: > >> Dear List Members, >> >> Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? >> >> 'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to >> pre-classical kshatriya culture. >> >> I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is >> not conclusive. >> >> Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is >> action for an epic kshatriya. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Kevin McGrath. >> >> >> Sanskrit Dept. >> Harvard College. >> From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 3 09:46:11 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 15:16:11 +0530 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <199812030846.OAA14422@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043197.23782.4493656376352206075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Viciousness and amateurism have already set in again, not surprisingly. Now I can, and perhaps should, point out some examples to illustrate what I meant. Subrahmania wrote: > It is ok to label people and attribute motives to Indian scholars > .....but it becomes vicious to oppose existing dogma ? There we are: two centuries of research is labelled "dogma", and "Indian scholars" are portrayed as innocent victims of evil Westerners. (Which "Indian scholars"? Do all Indian scholars toe the indigenous line?) To explain what is happening, Madhav Deshpande (who, by the way, is a scholar from India) wrote: > The "indigenous Aryan" debate has a tendency to get vicious for a very > simple reason. For people of Indian origin, this issue has close > connections with their own perceptions of their identity. This seems a simple and reasonable explanation. But not denying this, and implicitly affirming it, Subrahmania wrote: > But,I must say that it is the Europeans who have had more problems > with perceptions about their identity - especially with their jewish > heritage and religion. > Thankfully, more scholars in the U.S are realizing that as well. Again Subrahmania's ethnic bias shows: "Europeans are worse than Indians." No proof given. Besides, it is irrelevant sidetracking. > By focussing and looking at only the Indian people, there is a tendency > to label and attribute motives. Why isnt anyone looking at the German > interest in Indian studies ? And he contradicts himself in one and the same message. Wonderful. Back to the trash of "German Indology", which we had on the list some time ago? That is for cheap Anglo-American paperback novels and war movies, not for an academic list. There has also been mention on this list of the U.S. scholars who wrote about "German Indology". Here Subrahmania, with his usual stress on ethnicity, could have immediately said that those scholars are biassed because they are Jews; but he did not, for reasons best known to him. (The majority position among critical European colleagues, by the way, does seem to be that American-Jewish problems are not so relevant for an adequate understanding of India, which is what Indology should be about. And this is most reasonable. Nor does it have anything to do with the other, good work which those American scholars have done.) And, by the way, let us be fair: has any other nation done as much for modern, critical, scientific Indian studies as the Germans have? Perhaps Mr. Subrahmania does not know; perhaps he does not read German either and cannot know. > Why should it be - that it is always the Indian people who should be > observed and the Europeans the observers ? Because it is Indology and not Europology. (May we assume that North Americans and Oceanians are included among the evil 'Europeans'?) And Indians, Japanese and anyone can and do participate. Sorry, no colonialistic conspiracy here! Everyone has a right to speak up: and everybody has a right to criticise, on the basis of relevant material and relevant argumentation. Not like Rambabu Yarlagadda, who wrote: > Is there any real evidence for Aryan invasion other than the theory > one German scholar who never visited India? > [...] > What I mean is there any real evidence like archeological evidence? This too is vicious (let us note that little word "real"!). Who is the mythical "one German scholar"? (Max Mueller, perhaps? He gets the blame for quite a lot these days. In that case, let us look again at Ambedkar's quote from Mueller, posted on this list on 18 November by Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan, to rehabilitate him.) And Subrahmania wrote: > It is high time that the motives of eurocentric academics be studied and > commented upon. This has already been done: hence I referred in my earlier message to E. Said and his "Orientalism", the falseness of which has been amply pointed out by several scholars in different forums. Subrahmania is just not up to date -- and yet this does not deter him from maligning the professionals. (_Why_ does he keep doing this? Why? What have we done, besides being non-Indian? Is he suffering from Said's reifying Occidentalism?) As for amateurism, Ashish Chandra wrote: > But I can easily point out to you that Swami Vivekananda himself had > debunked the Aryan invasion theory. In fact, the Vedas themselves > mention the word Arya and not Aryan, which means noble, as I am sure > you know. (N. Ganesan has already taken care of "Dravid = wealth". Yes, linguistics does matter.) Vivekananda is _not_ an authority on scholarly matters concerning history, linguistics, religious studies or whatever. Professional researchers will not make such a mistake. Just as Biblical concepts like 'Israel', 'the chosen people' etc. were 'reinterpreted' to suit non-Jewish Christians, a good deal of what passes as 'Vedic' has been 'reinterpreted' too by later religious and political leaders. Perhaps Mr. Chandra was not yet on the list when, already some time ago, I quoted racist passages from V.'s writings. If one goes through Vivekananda's writings and does not notice his racism and Hindu supremacism, one is remarkably insensitive (or reads very selectively. Modern excerpts from V. as a rule do not contain the uglier passages). Anyhow, I continue to believe that we do have the humanistic right to study and learn about fellow human beings in any part of the world along critical, rational lines, without present-day political activists (and their forebears) from such parts dictating to us what to believe. And we *are* free to use useful materials from publications of sincere researchers of old, irrespective of where they are from, also if the final conclusions in those old publications prove to be not tenable, because that is how science progresses. And now I am going back to serious matters and probably will not return to this 'debate'. Have a nice day. RZ From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 3 20:43:59 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 15:43:59 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043253.23782.922561322212672233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan Raja wrote : On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > OK, but does Brahma really have a will? And am I mentioned in it? Yours deservingly, Raja. I don't know the entire debate on Brahma but he is either 1) Nirguna (propertiless) or 2) Saguna with the only attributes of Satchitananda (Truth,Existence and Eternal Bliss). I don't think any possessions are mentioned for Brahma to have a will :) Regards Ashish Chandra From rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Thu Dec 3 20:56:01 1998 From: rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 15:56:01 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043251.23782.15282195365150045504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Book 10, beginning in chapter 2, K.rpa tries to convince A"svatthAman not to attack the Pandava camp during the night. Throughout most of his speech in chapter 2, and occasionally later in this Book, he says that both daiva and puru.sakAra are necessary for an activity, or maybe even a desire, to become accomplished. Here, daiva is clearly juxtaposed to "human action", so I have understood its meaning to be, here, "divine action". Elsewhere, of course, its meaning may differ. Bob Hueckstedt From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 3 23:29:16 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 17:29:16 -0600 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <01BE1F0B.823400A0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227043264.23782.3292011868439665150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >The reason why I go on about this, is that it often seems to be assumed that >Western Indologists somehow share the same prejudices as their colleagues a >century ago. Therefore, a clear answer to the question stated above would be >most interesting. > Ok...Infact, I had a reply prepared..but decided not to send it to the list. Anyway, here goes... Do you think that the Indian scholars will gain anything financially or politically ? They are honest people as well - why is it ok to accuse them of politics. They are as interested in knowing the truth about India's past as anyone else. As has already been stated there is a tendency among Western scholars to make these so called Indo-Europeans somehow more equal than others. Please read Jim Shaffers papers to see how these biases worked -these are not from a century ago, they are from Wheelers time. There has not been much change since then. What is so special about these so called Indo-Europeans ? European identity depends a great deal on who these so called Indo-Europeans were, so they found no problem in interpreting data to fit according to their perception who they are. A perception about themselves which was created by colonial history and economic superiority. It is just plain impossible to know the rate of change of language. There is no way of even knowing that there was 'a Proto-Indo-European Language' whethar it was in 3000BC,6000BC or whatever. Dixon,sees the possibility of a Proto-Indo-European linguistic area. This area could very well have been an area from NW-India to TarimBasin. New archeological and linguistic data are now available which have to be taken into consideration. The views of Indian scholars are as important as anyone else. So, an open mind is needed to look at all possibilities. The only people who will lose something are those academics who have projected themselves as scholars on India and have dissertations,papers and books that wont be worth anything. That is a great personal loss - and a great reason to keep the status quo going. ` Anyway, the quote that I gave in the previus message was Denis Sinor's. Regards, Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Dec 3 16:31:28 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 17:31:28 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043219.23782.6774322231178015283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmania wrote: > I find it amazing that people are so eager and willing to attribute > political motives against Indian scholars, but do not have the > courage to look at their own motives and prejudices. I am a bit curious about this. When we look at the arguments put forward by German Indologists in the 1930's about the homeland (which was preferably to be put somewhere in the middle of Germany :-)), it is easy to see a political bias. However, it would be interesting (at least for me) to know how you construe the motives and prejudices of modern Western Indologists like e.g. Witzel, Zydenbos and myself. For one thing: how do we profit politically or otherwise from assuming that the homeland was somewhere in Eurasia? (Mind you: personally, I have no dogmatic idea about WHERE in Eurasia it was. I only contend that it wasn't in India, and for this I state linguistic and cultural reasons). Furthermore, it cannot have escaped your attention that there are Indian scholars working in India (as well as at Western universities) who do not share the ideas of the Indigenous Aryanism, and ascribe political motives to the proponents that same theory. I have read enough Indigenous Aryanism to see that strong political and ideological matters are at stake, simply because men like Talageri and Rajaram keep saying so persistently. So is it really only those blasted Westerners? Would you please enlighten me? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 3 22:41:30 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 17:41:30 -0500 Subject: Announcement for Hindi-Urdu preceptor (fwd) Message-ID: <161227043262.23782.2304526889247449593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:37:22 -0500 (EST) From: Ali Asani To: Edwin Bryant Subject: Re: Announcement for Hindi-Urdu preceptor (fwd) > >The Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University, seeks >applications for a preceptor in Hindi-Urdu beginning September 1999. The >position is renewable on a yearly basis but is not tenure-track. >Duties will include language and literature instruction and course >development at all levels. Native or near native proficiency in Hindi-Urdu >and in English is required. The successful applicant should have >experience in teaching all levels of Hindi-Urdu, competency in both the >Devanagari and Perso-Arabic alphabets, and interest in developing >instructional materials. Applicants should have at least an MA or a PhD in >a relevant field, preferably with a sub-specialization in South Asian >literature and/or culture. > >Applications, including a curriculum vitae, three letters of >recommendation, and publications should be sent before February 1, 1999 to >Professor Ali Asani, Chair, Hindi-Urdu Search Committee, Harvard >University, Barker Center 305, 12 Quincy St, Cambridge, Ma. 02138. > >Harvard University is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer. >Women and minority scholars are encouraged to apply. > From ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Dec 3 16:46:32 1998 From: ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Wolf J.) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 17:46:32 +0100 Subject: attachment In-Reply-To: <3666B952.559905EF@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <161227043221.23782.11699858546080338285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> the outlook-express client for mac is better. the difference is: it works.... but eudora is always a good choice. greetings jan ------------------------------------------------ end of transmission From partha at CAPITAL.NET Fri Dec 4 00:34:29 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 19:34:29 -0500 Subject: Indian scholars, political gains, honesty, truth... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981203172916.007a0320@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227043266.23782.1700910450393016516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi. I am tempted to make a quick comment or two on the following. It is *not* meant to hurt anyone who is objective and reasonable. But I understand objectivity and reasonability are terms that could be used vaguely and/or appropriated. -Partha Banerjee ___________________ >Do you think that the Indian scholars will gain anything >financially or politically ? They are honest people >as well - why is it ok to accuse them of politics. >They are as interested in knowing the truth about >India's past as anyone else. ___________________ Financial gain -- I am not sure, likely not. But politically -- yes, specially if those "scholars" are preoccupied or prejudiced. And there are many such "scholars." Some of them at present are in the throne of power thereby empowering themselves to be "neutral", "moderate", and "reasonable." I don't want to name names unless I am forced to. Honest people -- okay, what kind of honesty? Honest to a political belief? See, (if I may say this now without much risk of inviting personal emails -- a recurring event), from that point of view, Hitler and Stalin were honest too, were they not? So, why is it okay to accuse them of politics? Because political beliefs shape us all -- and beliefs/ideologies are supposed to be different from biases. We don't "accuse" anyone unless we have enough reasons to accuse. If we don't "accuse", Hitlers and Stalins get by doing things *they* want to do and things that *we* don't want them to do. And there are and have been so many Hitlers and Stalins (of course their degrees of atrocity have been different, and atrocity has often been represented by the hegemony as political prudence) -- I heard that Einstein wrote Truman urging him not to drop the N-bomb on Hiroshima. Was Truman "honest"? I bet he was, to his own agenda that is. Was Einstein "accusing" him? He was, in his own civilized way. We are all interested to know the truth, but we must be careful as to when "knowing the truth" crosses the border of objectivity and enters the realm of manufacturing history (or the future for that matter). Are scholars supposed to be political? They'd be better off if they were. ____________________ From flmolina at UEVORA.PT Thu Dec 3 21:36:20 1998 From: flmolina at UEVORA.PT (Mariana caixeiro) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 21:36:20 +0000 Subject: need of True Type Devanagari fonts Message-ID: <161227043259.23782.12704547705830086353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues I would like to get some information on places and ways to acquire True Type fonts to write Sanskrit and Hindi and another true type font to write this languages in roman alphabet. I have been a Mac user but know I had to change to Windows. I got a set of Devanagari fonts for Mac but now I need another for Windows 95/98 and also a set of fonts based on Times type that allows me to write all diacritical marks using Shift, Ctrl e Alt. I tried to get a font from Theosophical University Press but they do not accept credit cards which is not practical at all for persons living in South of Europe. Thank you I would appreciate your information and help Mariana C?ndida Caixeiro School of Languages University of Evora From SKTPDS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Thu Dec 3 21:45:40 1998 From: SKTPDS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (Paul Dundas) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 21:45:40 +0000 Subject: thuggees ? Message-ID: <161227043199.23782.9075291117148524494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On this subject, see now Martine van Woerkens, " Le voyageur etrangle: l'Inde des thugs, le colonialisme et l'imaginaire ", Paris: A. Michel 1995 and my short paper " Some Jain References to the Thags and the Samsaramocaka ", Journal of the American Oriental Society 115 1995, pp. 281-4. Best wishes, Paul Dundas -------------- Paul Dundas Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit Department of Sanskrit School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW Scotland, U.K. Email: P.Dundas at ed.ac.uk Phone: 0131 650 4175 ( office ) 0131 229 4701 ( home ) Fax: +44 0131 650 6804 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Dec 3 21:22:26 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 22:22:26 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043255.23782.11089981343422332229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmania wrote: > I am sure that many people on this list are tired of this > whole Aryan/Indo-European thing - and so am I - we can > pick it up again sometime in the future. > There is no point in restating the same views from both sides, > and we have more important things to do as well. It seems to me that you are dodging the question. I don't recollect that we have discussed that question before. So let me repeat the question: You wrote: > I find it amazing that people are so eager and willing to attribute > political motives against Indian scholars, but do not have the > courage to look at their own motives and prejudices. I wrote: I am a bit curious about this. When we look at the arguments put forward by German Indologists in the 1930's about the homeland (which was preferably to be put somewhere in the middle of Germany :-)), it is easy to see a political bias. However, it would be interesting (at least for me) to know how you construe the motives and prejudices of modern Western Indologists like e.g. Witzel, Zydenbos and myself. For one thing: how do we profit politically or otherwise from assuming that the homeland was somewhere in Eurasia? (Mind you: personally, I have no dogmatic idea about WHERE in Eurasia it was. I only contend that it wasn't in India, and for this I state linguistic and cultural reasons). The reason why I go on about this, is that it often seems to be assumed that Western Indologists somehow share the same prejudices as their colleagues a century ago. Therefore, a clear answer to the question stated above would be most interesting. > Lars wrote.. > >Would you please enlighten me? > > > I am afraid, I cannot give you instant moksha at this time :) What a pity! Having to wait for moksha makes it less instant :-( > But, let me give the next best thing -- a quote > > "....But, the most powerful reason which has kept this > theory [i.e IE homeland] alive is that the vast majority > of the scholars interested in the subject were Europeans, > and the idea that their ancestors could have come from > another region simply did not occur to them....... > Perhaps the time has come to wrench 'Indo European' > prehistory out of the century old scholarly ruts......" Unfortunately, the quote (whoever said it) contains an error: To begin with, Europeans thought that the Indo-Europeans came from somewhere in Asia. A party was in favour of the Hindu Kush. Others claimed the point of origin would be somewhere in Asia north of the Himalayas. It is only in the second half of this century that Asia is "out" and Eurasia "in". > Pretty strong indictment, eh ? > Guess...who wrote it ? However strong the indictment, it is not born out by the facts. So, whoever wrote it did not have a good day :-) Regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Dec 4 08:16:01 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 03:16:01 -0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043284.23782.16603060716332503645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-12-03 11:02:48 EST, jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU writes: << The characters do talk about action a great deal in the course of the MBh, and one of the recurring themes of those discussions juxtaposes human initiative (karman, puraSakaara, utthaana ["energetic effort, exertion;" mistranslated by van Buitenen as "resurrection" at 3.33.6 & 7]) to various "agencies" beyond human ken and control--daiva, diSTa, vidhaatr, yadrcchaa, haTha, krtakarman (at MBh 12.56.14-15 Arjunamisra glosses daiva with "pre-existing karma," ["daivam praagbhaviiyam karma"; and I might add, he here glosses "utthaanena puruSakaareNa"]). >> The following is not from Sanskrit sources. But it is from the Tamil didactic work, tirukkuRaL. It occurs in a section of ten verses dealing with effort (ALvin2ai uTaimai). teyvattAn2 AkAtu en2in2um muyaRci tan2 mey varuttak kUli tarum (kuRaL 62.9) My translation: Even if it will not succeed (fully) because of teyvam (Sanskrit daiva) , effort will give reward in relation to the physical effort. Uzaiyum uppakkam kANpar ulaivu in2Rit tAzAtu ujnaRRupavar (kuRaL 62.10) My translation:Those who tirelessly exert effort will even turn back Uz. While some have translated Tamil Uz as karma, according to Dr. R. Vijayalakshmi, Uz corresponded to the concept of 'destiny' of Ajivikas. vaLLuvar, the author of kuRaL, may have been juxtaposing the benefit of voluntary effort against agencies which tend to impede the fruition of those efforts. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 4 15:35:39 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 07:35:39 -0800 Subject: Chin-sheng (688-740 AD), T'ang dynasty Message-ID: <161227043306.23782.17405171645238596848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shu Hikosaka says: "Chin-sheng (ChishO, 688-740 AD) of T'ang dynasty has also mentioned about Malaya country is near the Potalaka mountain which is the place of Avalokitezvara." Who is Chin-sheng? Any books, papers on him in Chinese, Japanese or Western languages? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcv at WXS.NL Fri Dec 4 07:40:34 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 07:40:34 +0000 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043282.23782.8675707313775254619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > Zaban-e-Urdu actually developed in the camps of the armies of Mahmud of >Ghazni. Zaban-e-Delhavi is derived from this Zaban-e-Urdu. The >Ghaznavid Urdu is an amlagam of Persian, Arabic and Turkic. Yup. And Franconian (Frankish) is Germanic, while Francien (French) is Romance. Same thing. Typical confusion of signifiant and signifie. >> Khari Boli is the speech on which the Zabaan-e-Dehlavi is based, and after >> the shifting of the Mughal Court to Delhi it survived as a sort of country >> cousin of Zabaan-e-Dehlavi. Standard Urdu has abandoned many Khari Boli >> forms. > >This is the older view propagated by the Sanskrit-centric Brahmanical >fundamentalist scholars. As per this view, > Sanskrit -> Prakrit -> Apabrahmsa -> Khari Boli -> Urdu. >These same linguists also claimed that Tamil, Greek, and English were >degraded forms of Sanskrit. These same people have claimed that : > > 1. "Taj Mahal is a Hindu temple" [cf. Oak's book] > 2. "Qutb Minar is a Hindu temple" > 3. "Shakespeare and Homer copied Sanskrit texts" > 4. "Aryans did not invade India, but were created by Brahma in the > Punjab" etc.etc. > >Fortunately, these lunacies have now been discarded by serios indologists. >It is thus accepted that Tamil is a Dravidian langauge, and that Urdu is >not a degraded form of Sanskrit. Sanskrit was created in 500 BC by Panini >et al and did not exist before that. Tamil is Dravidian (with Indo-Aryan borrowings), Urdu is Indo-Aryan (with Persian-Arabic borrowings), and Sankrit was codified (not created) by Panini. Linguists stopped talking about "degraded" forms of speech about 200 years ago. We leave that kind of talk to the amateurs, or to the lunatics on both sides. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 4 12:58:11 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 07:58:11 -0500 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043298.23782.7392019574061457478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, Some of the postings in this track are getting personal and that's unfortunate. Can people think twice before letting out any emotional outbursts? Debate is good, "vicious debate" is no good. Let's try more sanity.. Happy holidays.. - Bijoy Misra On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > Since my name appeared in Subrahmania's mail and I have a free moment, I > think I will contribute a few lines: > > > Remember the time when Swamiji was writing, the late 19th century, a > > time when "race sciences" were the in thing. Swamiji was far ahead of > > his time and does not have to be defended. > > First Subrahmania defends Vivekananda by saying he was a child of his > time. In the next sentence he says V. was ahead of his time... Great. > > What makes V. relevant is that he is still seen as a cultural > figurehead today; 19th-century Western 'race scientists' have no such > status in the West. V.'s admirers and defenders are clearly lagging > behind. > > Elsewhere, he wrote: > > > Do you think that the Indian scholars will gain anything > > financially or politically? > > Again, "the Indian scholars"... Please tell us, Subrahmania, why do you > not write more precisely 'indigenous Aryanists', or something like that? > It is *not* a matter of "India vs. the rest of the world". > > Yes, they do gain. _The Hindu_ has run several articles over the past > few months about how the present Indian government has been > restructuring the Indian Council for Historical Research and has > attempted to do the same with the Centre for Advanced Study in Simla, by > appointing people with such ideas in those bodies. Members of the Simla > institute have written their protest in the Indian press. > > > I find it amazing that people are so eager and willing to attribute > > political motives against Indian scholars, but do not have the > > courage to look at their own motives and prejudices. > > Not "Indian scholars"... Subrahmania, PLEASE STOP THIS VICIOUS DEMAGOGY. > The identity of a scholar as "Indian" does *not* depend on whether one > supports the indigenous Aryan theory or not. At the Ann Arbor / Lausanne > conference, with participants from different countries, an _Indian > scholar, from India_ requested that the conference issue a statement > condemning the political pressure put to bear on historians in India. > Understandably, nobody wanted the conference to become politicised, > hence nothing of the sort happened. The scholar at the end expressed > relief that the results vindicated those in India who do not toe the > present 'politically correct' line. > > Lars Fosse has already invited you to analyse the motives and prejudices > of persons like himself, Witzel and myself. *Please* do that. Don't be > shy or cowardly. Tell me what _my_ "motives and prejudices" are. (But > please do it quickly. I will be out of town next week and will > temporarily unsubscribe, and then I cannot see you teach me about > myself. :-) ) > > On the other hand, if you continue to pretend to be certain that > persons like Fosse, Witzel and I write out of pernicious motives and > prejudices, and yet if you cannot do better than pollute this list with > demagogy and further silly insults, then please do your > > > more important things > > RZ > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 4 13:43:50 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 08:43:50 -0500 Subject: Against Aryan Invasions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043301.23782.2629091327012873293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's a horrible summary. "ved acharya"s only know their view. We should keep away.. On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Samar Abbas wrote: > Re. the recent debate on Aryan invasions, I think this is a good summary > of the points that are raised against the idea. It was posted by > Ved Acharya to Usenet. > _________________________________________________________________ > > Author: Ved Acharya > Email: ved_acharya at vedas.bharat.org Date: 1998/12/04 > Forums: soc.culture.indian, soc.culture.tamil, > sci.anthropology, alt.religion.hindu > > AGAINST ARYAN INVASIONS > > The fallacious concept of Aryan Invasions is now wholly discarded by the > most sacred acharyas and sannyasis. These august persons have declared > that the Aryan invasion was a theory proposed by the crafty British who > wished to divide and rule. We have amassed a wealth of evidence in their > favour: > > 1. HORSE BONES - The horse bones found in the Indus cities were wrongly > claimed to belong to Aryan invaders. Instead they could equally well have > been due to large scale ashvamedhas (horse-sacrifices) by the pious Vedic > Aryans. Charred horse bones substantiate this view. > > 2. FRACTURED SKULLS - The fractured skulls that the biased Europeans said > were those of Dravidians slaughtered by invading Aryans were in fact the bones > of pious volunteers sacrificed during purushamedhas (Vedic human > sacrifices). > > 3. THICH ASH LAYERS - The mischievious Europeans proposed that the thick > ash layers found in the Indus cities were due to Aryans burning down the > Dravidian Indus cities. In fact these could have well been the ashes of > the pious Vedic Aryan ladies performing sati and jauhar. Some fragments of > charred bones substantiate this fact, and many bangles have been found in > the IVC. > > 4. FALL OF THE INDUS - The Europeans have always claimed that the Indus > Valley civilization was destroyed by the nomad Ayrans. In fact, it was > destroyed by the Dravidians who invaded from the sea, and the Muslims, who > invaded from the north. Europeans have always tried to portray Islam as > a young religion, when in fact Abraham and all the Jews and Christians > were in fact Muslim. So Muslims existed in the centuries BC, and the > concept of Muslims having destroyed the Indus is confirmed by the numerous > temples (like the Rama mandir at Ayodhya ) being destroyed by Muslims. > References to Yavana invasions in the sacred Poorans also confirm this > fact. > > 5. SUDROID RACE - The Imperialist scholars tried to propagate the notion > of the Sudroid race to divide the Hindus. These were supposed to be the > black aboriginals enslaved by the Aryans. This is all falsehood, as will > be shown point-by point below: > > - The sage Vivekanada has declared that this theory is false. So how can > it be right ? > - Some Dravida chauvinists claim that Dravidian is older than Sanskrit. > These are deluded, since these languages have no independant history; > they are merely degraded forms of Sanskrit. The recent `purification' > of Tamil by the removal of Sanskrit words is merely delusion spread by > the Europeans. Both shall be reborn as cockroaches in their next life. > - Moreover, the sacred Poorans declare that the Dravidians are > degraded Kshatriyas, and so they are the Aryans. The Sudras were > created from the foot of Brahma. Since this could have happened when > Brahma stood in a puddle of mud, the Sudras became black. > Unfortunately the Europeans do not accept the Vedas as anthropological > texts, and so the holy Panditas have given anthropological revelations > to convince the European mlecchas (barbarians). > Thus, the Sudras stayed in the sun, and so got black skin. > They took to eating pan leaf, so they developed thick lips. > They were employed as hunters, and so they > had to develop broad noses to smell better. Thus the concept of a > Sudra race is wrong. > > > SUDROID NEGROES - Another concept propagated by the African nationalists > is the concept of the Sudras being Negroes, who built up the Indus Valley > civilization. These Sudric Negroes were then enslaved by the white Aryans, > just as Bantu Negroes were enslaved by the Anglo-Saxons. They do not > realize that they are all Indian, and are hence all Aryans. The > Sudras became the Sudanese, and the Gonds became the Kongos (whence Congo > river). Thus the Negroes are all Indian, just as the Anglo-Saxons are. > > As shown above > the Sudroids degraded from Aryans, and these Sudroids then invaded Africa, > giving rise to the Negroes. This is proven by the fact that the genetic > differences between Aryan and non-Aryan are very small. > > EVOLUTION - The theory of evolution of man from monkeys as proposed by > Darwin is completely false. The acharyas have declared that the notion of > holy Brahmanas being descended from monkeys was merely proposed to cast a > slur on the Brahmans and to insult Hinduism. When the sacred revealed > scriptures of Vedas and Mahabharat declare that the Brahmanas were created > from the head of Brahma, how can anything else be true? But Darwin's false > theory was jumped upon by the European scholars to prove their Aryan > invasion theory. > > > OUT OF AFRICA - The African nationalists have propagated the false notion > of all humans having come out of Africa. This was seized upon by the > propagators of the Aryan invasion theory, who claimed that since the > Aryans evolved from Negroes of Africa, they could not have originated in > India, and must have invaded from Africa. This sinister conspiracy has now > gained wide acceptance by anthropologists. > > 1 MILLION YEAR OLD VEDAS > Another fiction spread by the Christian scholars is that the Vedas date to > 1500 BC. This was because they could not comprehend any date before 3000 > BC, when the Bible says the world was created by God in 7 days. So when > they read of dates and eras millions of years old, they dismissed it as > nonsense. But now it is accepted that the world existed before 3000 BC. In > fact, the Vedas are millions of years old, having been in existence from > the time of creation of the world itself in the yugas. > > GERMAN ARYANS > Another lie propagated by the Europeans is that the Germans were the > purest Aryans. This is evidently not so, since they speak a highly > degraded form of Sanskrit and not the original pure devabhasha. Moreover > the Aryans in India have black hair, which due to snow falling on it > became bleached in the north. So they are not the original Aryans. > > SIVA NON_ARYAN > Another myth propagated by the Europeans is that Shiva was a Dravidian > god. They cite the occurrence of obscene sculptures in the walls of > temples as evidence that Shiva and many other ascpects of Hinduism were of > Dravidian origin. This has been shown to be false, and the sculptures were > made for the entertainment of the European visitors; hippies who came to > India in 100 BC. They are obviously not for the Aryans, who would never > tolerated such things in their sacred shrines. The discovery of some nude > mother-goddess figurines is also cited as evidence that the Indus people > were the aboriginals. In fact these were imported by the European hippies, > who brought their obscene sculptures to India. These hippies were the > Greeks, who brought their obscene Priapus cult (whence the phallic nature > of Shiva worship) and other vulgarities that corrupted the Aryans. As > evidence such sculptures are only found after the Greeks invasded India, > introducing decadent Western culture and proto-AIDS (ancient venereal > diseases) that killed the Aryas. > > SHAKEPEARE AND GREEK ART > The Europeans have indulged in hero-worship of the Greeks (Homer etc.) > and Latin poets. They have also eulogized Shakespeare as `the greatest > writer of all times'. These are all bogus claims, since it has been shown > that these works were in fact renditions of original Sanskrit texts. All > these langauges, Greek, Latin and English, are merely degraded forms of > Sanskrit. Also, their literature is almost wholly copies of Sanskrit > originals. Tnus, Aesop copied the Ocean of Story, Shakespeare copied the > Pancatantra etc. The Trojan War is only a local re-enactment of the > Mahabharat War. So these are merely the degraded Aryas. When the holy > SIndhu river dried up in 1500 BC, they migrated to different parts of the > world, preserving only faint memories of their origins. > > So it is evident that the Arya invasion theory is wrong. > > VED ACHARYA > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 4 16:46:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 08:46:24 -0800 Subject: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043314.23782.12825964494238732919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Do you think that the Indian scholars will gain anything *financially or politically ? They are honest people *as well - why is it ok to accuse them of politics. *They are as interested in knowing the truth about *India's past as anyone else. I too am busy on a forthcoming visit to Japan. However ... *What about the class interests of Indian "scholars" pushing Indigenous Aryanism to Indian masses?* The major difference between Western academic publications and Indigenous Aryan propaganda is that Western books are too expensive, and do not reach people whose numbers are never more than few hundred. Compare this to: Max Mueller's mistakes are debunked daily to Indian masses running to few hundred MILLIONS. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Dec 4 08:35:31 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 09:35:31 +0100 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043286.23782.11880408071665291597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sama Abbas, I comment on your post at the relevant places. Perhaps there are other scholars who would like to contribute to this thread, as I do not have time to pursue it at length. > > Zaban-e-Urdu actually developed in the camps of the armies of Mahmud of >Ghazni. Zaban-e-Delhavi is derived from this Zaban-e-Urdu. The >Ghaznavid Urdu is an amlagam of Persian, Arabic and Turkic. Please give me the names of the texts in Zaban-e-Urdu written by Mahmud of Ghazi so that I may take a look at them. To the best of my knowledge the only texts earlier than Amir Khusrau are Nath texts in Saddhukari. If texts by Mahmud of Ghazni exist, I suspect they would be in Persian, as this was the language used by the various Muslim conquerors until the end of the Mughal Empire. A Persian text does not prove than the language of Ghazni is the same as Old Urdu. > >>> (3) Modern Urdu as standardized by the poets, written first in Delhi and >> later also in Lucknow, and first mentioned as "Urdu" in a couplet written >> by the poet Mushhafi (1750-1824), dated to ca. 1776. > >The first mention of `Zaban-e-Urdu' is in reference to the language >of the camps of Mahmud of Ghazni. The first poet was Masud, who lived >during the Ghaznavid era. > We must have more than a reference to a name, as Zaban-e-Urdu mnerely means "language of the camp" and does not carry any linguistic information. In which text is this reference, and does the text supply any samples of the speech of "Zaban-e-Urdu"? >> Khari Boli is the speech on which the Zabaan-e-Dehlavi is based, and after >> the shifting of the Mughal Court to Delhi it survived as a sort of country >> cousin of Zabaan-e-Dehlavi. Standard Urdu has abandoned many Khari Boli >> forms. >> >>This is the older view propagated by the Sanskrit-centric Brahmanical >fundamentalist scholars. As per this view, > Sanskrit -> Prakrit -> Apabrahmsa -> Khari Boli -> Urdu. >These same linguists also claimed that Tamil, Greek, and English were >degraded forms of Sanskrit. These same people have claimed that : > > 1. "Taj Mahal is a Hindu temple" [cf. Oak's book] > 2. "Qutb Minar is a Hindu temple" > 3. "Shakespeare and Homer copied Sanskrit texts" > 4. "Aryans did not invade India, but were created by Brahma in the > Punjab" etc.etc. > The term "Sanskrit-centric Brahmanical fundamentalist scholars" could hardly be applied to scholars like Abdul Haq and Inshaullah Khan and many other serious scholars who have worked on Urdu. Please supply the names of the scholars whose work you rely on. >Fortunately, these lunacies have now been discarded by serios indologists. >It is thus accepted that Tamil is a Dravidian langauge, and that Urdu is >not a degraded form of Sanskrit. Sanskrit was created in 500 BC by Panini >et al and did not exist before that. I leave comment on this above to my Sanskritist colleagues! >> The identification of Urdu as Indo-Aryan is based on analysis of its >> grammar (verbs, nouns, pronouns, postpositions) and its core vocabulary, as >> contained in texts. > >It would be so if it were derived from Persian via the route > Persian -> Indo-Persian -> Urdu >or if it were a hybrid langauge; it could still be classed as >Indo-Iranian even in this case. This fact has been misused by Hindu >fundamentalist linguists to claim that Urdu is derived from Sanskrit. We cannot throw out the principles of historical linguistics before we even begin our analysis. Several hundred years of historical research on many language families of the world have shown that we can still determine the grammatical and phonological basis of a language even when it has borrowed heavily and become, from the lexical standpoint, a mixed language. > >> Modern Urdu is indeed quite Persianized (and >> Arabicized), but this was a gradual process. > >Urdu originally had only Perso-Arabo-Turkic words. It was the language of >the Ghaznavid camp, where only Iranian, Turkish and Arab warrioirs were >present. Khari Boli was not spoken in Afghanistan. How could they have >adopted Khari Boli, which nobody there would have known? Also Khari Boli >was not the literary language of India at the time; it was (mainly) >Sanskrit. These Ghazis would obviously not have learned Sanskrit. Khari Boli was an important element in the devotional poetry of the (then) northen India, including modern Pakistan, so we know that it existed. The various Muslim courts as I mentioned used Persian (we have enormous numbers of records to prove it). They distinguished between this Persian and the languages of India, which they lumped together and did not consider fit for poetry. >> The poems of Amir Khusrau >> (1236-1324), which are usually considered the first Urdu texts, are not >> heavily Persianized. > > In fact the first Urdu poet is Masud who died a century after the death >of Mahmud of Ghazni [ `Alberuni's India', transl. Sachau vol.II p.258 ]. >Sachau refers to him as `the Dante of Urdu'. > > Actually Amir Khosrow was, along with Malik Muhammed Jaisi, one of the >first Hindustani writers. Their langauge conatains a higher proportion of >Prakrit, Vedic, Sanskrit, Dravidian etc. words, which they adopted into >the original Zaban-e-Urdu. This was an innovation at the time. > >> The poets of the Delhi School of Urdu poetry (Mir, >> Sauda etc.) wrote a somewhat less Persianized Urdu than those of the later >> Lucknow School. > > These were attempts to restore the language to its purity as it existed >in the Ghaznavid era, considered by many to have been a `golden age'. >There were also periods of Turkic, Arabic and `New Hindustani' influences. >It was just a question of fashion as to when Persian, Turkish, New >Hindustani or Arabic words were preferred. Mir and Sauda are anything but linguistic reformers! Read their poetry, it is full of complaints about the dark days which had fallen on the Mughal Empire. Read Mir's memoirs. >> Hindi and >> Hindavi are Persian words. > >This in itself indicates that the language Hindi cannot be >Sanskrit-derived. The Indians call English `Angrez', but the English will >not start calling their language `Angrez' too. Similarly the Persians >referred to Urdu os `Hindi'(as you say), but Indo-Aryans will not start >referring to their langauges (Kanuaji, Braj etc. ) as Hindi. THis goes >against the Sanskritic origin of Hindi. It doesn't indicate anything except the geographical location of the language. I can point out to you at least a dozen separate languages called "Kohistani" (of the mountains) in Pakistan. Knowing that they are "of the mountains tells us nothing, which we can find out by recording the languages. In short, you have brought many opinions for consideration, but you have not furnished names of scholars, names of texts, quotations from the text that contain more than the mere mention of the names of languages, or any of the other data which are indispensable for linguistic and textual analysis. I invite you to do so. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 4 18:03:26 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 10:03:26 -0800 Subject: pANini's inspiration and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227043321.23782.5341527774958846239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > In an earlier posting, I had requested some information regarding the > dakSiNAmUrti motif. R Nagarajan while discussing Appar's poetry says that both dakshiNAmUrti and vINAdhara dakshiNAmUrti are generic puranic references. Refer Siva Bhakti by R Nagarajan, Navrang Publ., New Delhi, 1989. (p 39). The purana that is refered here is LingapurANa. Hope this helps. Thanks and Warm Regards. PS: BTW, there is a similar reference to dakshinamurti in the Divyaprabandham too: neRivAcal tAnEyAyninRanai aindu poRivAcal pOrkkadavam cArtti aRivAnAm AlamaranIzal aRam nAlvarkkanRuraitta Alamamarkandattaran. (poy. div. 2085) It is remarkable as it is one of the few benign references to Siva in the entire Vaishnava canon ;-))) == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 4 16:36:58 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 10:36:58 -0600 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043311.23782.13073841635654455827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Zydenbos wrote: > <...ranting clipped...> > Tell me what _my_ "motives and prejudices" are. > You are just someone who thinks that any Indian scholar who doesnt agree to your eurocentric nonsense is politically motivated. Subrahmanya. *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 4 19:25:16 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 11:25:16 -0800 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan Message-ID: <161227043323.23782.11486099823221135622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *According to KRSNa in Bhagavad-gItA 4.13: *cAtur-varNyaM mayA sRSTaM *guNa-karma-vibhAgaZaH *The four castes (cAtur-varNyaM) were created by Me, according to *quality (guNa) and activity (karma). *Race and birth are not mentioned. Generally, karma is not translated as activity. It is a loaded term in Indic tradition. Another example is dharma. For your quote below, Well, Bhagavatam was written in the Tamil South. Many Indian and Western professors assure me that Bhagavatham is just Tamil Srivaishnava literature written in Samskrit. Pl. read Alvar paasurams in Tamil or the book, viraha bhakti in English along with Bhagavatham to know what I am hinting. Regards, N. Ganesan Furthermore, the sage, NArada, states in the BhAgavata PurANa 7.11.35: yasya yal lakSaNaM proktaM puMso varNAbhivyanjakam yad anyatrApi dRSyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiZet "If one shows the symptoms of being a brAhmaNa, kSatriya, vaiZya or ZUdra [varNa]. . . even if he has appeared in a different class [anyatra], he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification." I hope these references shed some light on the discussion. Chris Beetle ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bvi at AFN.ORG Fri Dec 4 16:29:42 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 11:29:42 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan Message-ID: <161227043308.23782.3491994291263929545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:02 PM 12/4/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: >> N. Ganesan wrote : >> >> Social reformers in the South have been calling for reforms within >> Hinduism. That is, Priesthood and Sankaracharyaship should become available >> for any Hindu, not for a particular group determined just by birth. For >> Hinduism to become modern, the only qualifications to be a priest or a >> Sankaracharya, must be 1) be a Hindu > >Hindu is taken as a synonym for Aryan nowadays. > >> and 2) be proficient in Samskrit and >> few more Indian languages. > >> I could not agree more. In fact, one should take process a step further and >> base the interpretation of caste purely as our scriptures define them, i.e. >> not by birth but intellectual/physical inclinations. > > Show me one person who has changed his caste. The fact is, it is racial >in basis. According to KRSNa in Bhagavad-gItA 4.13: cAtur-varNyaM mayA sRSTaM guNa-karma-vibhAgaZaH The four castes (cAtur-varNyaM) were created by Me, according to quality (guNa) and activity (karma). Race and birth are not mentioned. Furthermore, the sage, NArada, states in the BhAgavata PurANa 7.11.35: yasya yal lakSaNaM proktaM puMso varNAbhivyanjakam yad anyatrApi dRSyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiZet "If one shows the symptoms of being a brAhmaNa, kSatriya, vaiZya or ZUdra [varNa]. . . even if he has appeared in a different class [anyatra], he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification." I hope these references shed some light on the discussion. Chris Beetle From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 4 19:40:02 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 11:40:02 -0800 Subject: Chin-sheng (688-740 AD), T'ang dynasty Message-ID: <161227043325.23782.10229322097326855255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I checked OCLC database with author as Wang Gang-wu or Wang Gang Wu. Nothing shows up. As a subject I get 3 titles: all unrelated to Buddhism, T'ang dynasty etc., Can please Harbsmeier be asked to give few titles? More biblio info please. Thanks, N. Ganesan ----------------------------- My colleague C. Harbsmeier (sinologist), who happened to be in my room when your message came, suggests that you consult the publications of Wang Gang-wu (former president of Hong Kong University) to find relevant information about the author in question. Best wishes G.v.Simson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 4 19:43:02 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 11:43:02 -0800 Subject: Bu-ston query Message-ID: <161227043327.23782.198565225826675444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does the historian of buddhism from Tibet in 14th century say anything about the location of Potalaka, the abode of avalokitezvara? 300 years later, Taranatha, the Tibetan lama, says it is located in South India. So does, GaNDavyUha and Xuanzang. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Dec 4 17:27:49 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:27:49 -0500 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043270.23782.1402114624910968606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My replies to the post are given at the appropriate places below: > On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > I am reluctant to get into this debate, however it needs to be pointed out > that most scholars, including most (but not all) South Asian scholars of > Urdu have accepted an Indo-Aryan pedigree for all of the following: > (1) Zabaan-e-Dehlavi (the precursor of Zabaan-e-Urdu), spoken in Delhi > under the Delhi Sultanate (1211 to 1504), carried to the Deccan and spoken > there as Dakhini, and surviving today as Kaarkhandaari Urdu; Zaban-e-Urdu actually developed in the camps of the armies of Mahmud of Ghazni. Zaban-e-Delhavi is derived from this Zaban-e-Urdu. The Ghaznavid Urdu is an amlagam of Persian, Arabic and Turkic. > (2) Zabaan-e-Urdu-e-Mu'alla (its successor), developing in Delhi after the > shifting of the Mughal Court there in 1648, and differing from > Zabaan-e-Dehlavi in having more influence from the dialect of Agra, where > the court was formerly; This is correct. It was denoted -e-Mu'alla to differentiate it from the Ghaznavid original Urdu, which is denoted only `Zaban-e-Urdu'. > (3) Modern Urdu as standardized by the poets, written first in Delhi and > later also in Lucknow, and first mentioned as "Urdu" in a couplet written > by the poet Mushhafi (1750-1824), dated to ca. 1776. The first mention of `Zaban-e-Urdu' is in reference to the language of the camps of Mahmud of Ghazni. The first poet was Masud, who lived during the Ghaznavid era. > > Khari Boli is the speech on which the Zabaan-e-Dehlavi is based, and after > the shifting of the Mughal Court to Delhi it survived as a sort of country > cousin of Zabaan-e-Dehlavi. Standard Urdu has abandoned many Khari Boli > forms. > This is the older view propagated by the Sanskrit-centric Brahmanical fundamentalist scholars. As per this view, Sanskrit -> Prakrit -> Apabrahmsa -> Khari Boli -> Urdu. These same linguists also claimed that Tamil, Greek, and English were degraded forms of Sanskrit. These same people have claimed that : 1. "Taj Mahal is a Hindu temple" [cf. Oak's book] 2. "Qutb Minar is a Hindu temple" 3. "Shakespeare and Homer copied Sanskrit texts" 4. "Aryans did not invade India, but were created by Brahma in the Punjab" etc.etc. Fortunately, these lunacies have now been discarded by serios indologists. It is thus accepted that Tamil is a Dravidian langauge, and that Urdu is not a degraded form of Sanskrit. Sanskrit was created in 500 BC by Panini et al and did not exist before that. > The identification of Urdu as Indo-Aryan is based on analysis of its > grammar (verbs, nouns, pronouns, postpositions) and its core vocabulary, as > contained in texts. It would be so if it were derived from Persian via the route Persian -> Indo-Persian -> Urdu or if it were a hybrid langauge; it could still be classed as Indo-Iranian even in this case. This fact has been misused by Hindu fundamentalist linguists to claim that Urdu is derived from Sanskrit. > Modern Urdu is indeed quite Persianized (and > Arabicized), but this was a gradual process. Urdu originally had only Perso-Arabo-Turkic words. It was the language of the Ghaznavid camp, where only Iranian, Turkish and Arab warrioirs were present. Khari Boli was not spoken in Afghanistan. How could they have adopted Khari Boli, which nobody there would have known? Also Khari Boli was not the literary language of India at the time; it was (mainly) Sanskrit. These Ghazis would obviously not have learned Sanskrit. > The poems of Amir Khusrau > (1236-1324), which are usually considered the first Urdu texts, are not > heavily Persianized. In fact the first Urdu poet is Masud who died a century after the death of Mahmud of Ghazni [ `Alberuni's India', transl. Sachau vol.II p.258 ]. Sachau refers to him as `the Dante of Urdu'. Actually Amir Khosrow was, along with Malik Muhammed Jaisi, one of the first Hindustani writers. Their langauge conatains a higher proportion of Prakrit, Vedic, Sanskrit, Dravidian etc. words, which they adopted into the original Zaban-e-Urdu. This was an innovation at the time. > The poets of the Delhi School of Urdu poetry (Mir, > Sauda etc.) wrote a somewhat less Persianized Urdu than those of the later > Lucknow School. These were attempts to restore the language to its purity as it existed in the Ghaznavid era, considered by many to have been a `golden age'. There were also periods of Turkic, Arabic and `New Hindustani' influences. It was just a question of fashion as to when Persian, Turkish, New Hindustani or Arabic words were preferred. > > The elite of the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire spoke Persian, and > considered Zabaan-e-Urdu an Indian (Hindi, Hindavi) language. Similarly the American English (considered by some to be a separate langauge) was considered `American' and `degraded' by many Anglo-Saxon settlers in New England (who encouraged the usage of `pure' English English). That does not mean that American (English) is derived from Sioux. Similarly Urdu is not derived from Khari Boli. American English vocabulary (and perhaps even certain forms of grammar and phonology) is a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, German, French, Dutch etc. with a minor admixture of Native Amerind words. That is because the bulk of settlers were from Europe and looked towards Europe. Similarly the bulk of Indo-Muslim settlers came from Iran, Turkestan and Arabestan. So they naturally looked towards those nations for their heritage. A few converts introduced the Prakritic words. > Hindi and > Hindavi are Persian words. This in itself indicates that the language Hindi cannot be Sanskrit-derived. The Indians call English `Angrez', but the English will not start calling their language `Angrez' too. Similarly the Persians referred to Urdu os `Hindi'(as you say), but Indo-Aryans will not start referring to their langauges (Kanuaji, Braj etc. ) as Hindi. THis goes against the Sanskritic origin of Hindi. > Standard Hindi based on Khari Boli is a modern language which has been > around for some two centuries. This is correct, it is of modern origin only. It arose out of the Hindustani Urdu spoken. > Before being Sanskritized it was almost > identical to Urdu, but without the Perso-Arabic vocabulary. I agree that it was almost identical to Urdu, but not the `without the Perso-Arabic vocabulary'. Many Hindus learned Persian, etc. so they were not unfamiliar with Perso-Arabic vocabulary. Even Khari Boli has 20 % Perso-Arabic words, and some letter of the Maratha peshwas in Marathi have up to 50 % Perso-Arabic words. Secondly, if it was without the Perso-Arabic vocabulary, then there was obviously no connection with Urdu. > Before the > evolution of Standard Hindi, the literary languages for north Indian Hindus > were Braj Bhasha, Avadhi and Rajasthani. I agree fully with this, Hindi did not exist. Aslo `Rajastan' is a Persian word and came into general use in the 18th century. So the pre-Islamic inhabitants of Rajastan did not call themselves Rajastanis; this was the gift of the Hindustanis. > > With best wishes, > > Ruth Schmidt The problem here is not the origin of Urdu, which I have clealry given above, but the origin of Khari Boli. The origin of Khari Boli has, I fell no relation to the origin of Urdu. I think that it is either a Prakrit or is also a Sanskritised/Prakritised form of Hindustani. Whatever it may be, it is of little importance. The Indo-Aryans themselves never patronized this Khari Boli in the pre-Islamic era. Please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that you are wrong. I am just saying that many Europeans have been misled by the Hindu fundamentalist indologists. In fact, I agree with you on many points. It is now accepted that Qutb Minar and Taj Mahal were the creations of Hindustanis, and it is now being realized that Urdu was also the creation of Hindustanis too. I here only state that European indologists should remove the biases that have been planted into Indology by certain organizations, otherwise wrong things will continue to be said. With best wishes, Samar From bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 4 20:36:48 1998 From: bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM (Bapa Rao) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:36:48 -0800 Subject: Against Aryan Invasions Message-ID: <161227043328.23782.17825123387754155558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Indology list charter says that the list is for discussions among practicing indology scholars, and others are welcome to read, but are definitely discouraged from posting. I read the list mainly to add to my knowledge of indology, but there is also an important side-effect of fostering meta-impressions of the state and quality of the field in general. With that background, I would like to understand if the recent postings of Samar Abbas are thought to represent serious professional "Indological" opinions. I find it astonishing that a serious researcher (assuming Abbas is one) would take unbaked opinions like those purportedly of Ved Acharya below and pass them off as a "good summary" of a position on a controversial research issue. Talk of knocking down strawmen and shooting fish in a barrel. Both amusing activities, no doubt, but they are not research. Also, re Samir Abbas's crude revisionst theories about the linguistic history of Urdu: I would certainly hope, for the sake of integrity of the field of indology, that, if a graduate student of indology came up with such a purported historical chart, his advisor would do the student the kindness of telling him that "crappy" and "bogus" aren't inappropriate terms to describe his thesis and his methodology. Samir Abbas, if you consider yourself a researcher, be kind enough to provide the name of the institution you work for, so that I can take appropriate precautions. Bapa Rao >Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:41:12 -0500 >Reply-To: Indology >From: Samar Abbas >Subject: Against Aryan Invasions >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Re. the recent debate on Aryan invasions, I think this is a good summary >of the points that are raised against the idea. It was posted by >Ved Acharya to Usenet. > _________________________________________________________________ > > Author: Ved Acharya > Email: ved_acharya at vedas.bharat.org Date: 1998/12/04 > Forums: soc.culture.indian, soc.culture.tamil, > sci.anthropology, alt.religion.hindu > > AGAINST ARYAN INVASIONS > > The fallacious concept of Aryan Invasions is now wholly discarded by the >most sacred acharyas and sannyasis. These august persons have declared >that the Aryan invasion was a theory proposed by the crafty British who >wished to divide and rule. We have amassed a wealth of evidence in their >favour: > >1. HORSE BONES - The horse bones found in the Indus cities were wrongly >claimed to belong to Aryan invaders. Instead they could equally well have >been due to large scale ashvamedhas (horse-sacrifices) by the pious Vedic >Aryans. Charred horse bones substantiate this view. > >2. FRACTURED SKULLS - The fractured skulls that the biased Europeans said >were those of Dravidians slaughtered by invading Aryans were in fact the bones >of pious volunteers sacrificed during purushamedhas (Vedic human >sacrifices). > >3. THICH ASH LAYERS - The mischievious Europeans proposed that the thick >ash layers found in the Indus cities were due to Aryans burning down the >Dravidian Indus cities. In fact these could have well been the ashes of >the pious Vedic Aryan ladies performing sati and jauhar. Some fragments of >charred bones substantiate this fact, and many bangles have been found in >the IVC. > >4. FALL OF THE INDUS - The Europeans have always claimed that the Indus >Valley civilization was destroyed by the nomad Ayrans. In fact, it was >destroyed by the Dravidians who invaded from the sea, and the Muslims, who >invaded from the north. Europeans have always tried to portray Islam as >a young religion, when in fact Abraham and all the Jews and Christians >were in fact Muslim. So Muslims existed in the centuries BC, and the >concept of Muslims having destroyed the Indus is confirmed by the numerous >temples (like the Rama mandir at Ayodhya ) being destroyed by Muslims. >References to Yavana invasions in the sacred Poorans also confirm this >fact. > >5. SUDROID RACE - The Imperialist scholars tried to propagate the notion >of the Sudroid race to divide the Hindus. These were supposed to be the >black aboriginals enslaved by the Aryans. This is all falsehood, as will >be shown point-by point below: > > - The sage Vivekanada has declared that this theory is false. So how can > it be right ? > - Some Dravida chauvinists claim that Dravidian is older than Sanskrit. > These are deluded, since these languages have no independant history; > they are merely degraded forms of Sanskrit. The recent `purification' > of Tamil by the removal of Sanskrit words is merely delusion spread by > the Europeans. Both shall be reborn as cockroaches in their next life. > - Moreover, the sacred Poorans declare that the Dravidians are > degraded Kshatriyas, and so they are the Aryans. The Sudras were > created from the foot of Brahma. Since this could have happened when > Brahma stood in a puddle of mud, the Sudras became black. > Unfortunately the Europeans do not accept the Vedas as anthropological > texts, and so the holy Panditas have given anthropological revelations > to convince the European mlecchas (barbarians). > Thus, the Sudras stayed in the sun, and so got black skin. > They took to eating pan leaf, so they developed thick lips. > They were employed as hunters, and so they > had to develop broad noses to smell better. Thus the concept of a > Sudra race is wrong. > > >SUDROID NEGROES - Another concept propagated by the African nationalists >is the concept of the Sudras being Negroes, who built up the Indus Valley >civilization. These Sudric Negroes were then enslaved by the white Aryans, >just as Bantu Negroes were enslaved by the Anglo-Saxons. They do not >realize that they are all Indian, and are hence all Aryans. The >Sudras became the Sudanese, and the Gonds became the Kongos (whence Congo >river). Thus the Negroes are all Indian, just as the Anglo-Saxons are. > >As shown above >the Sudroids degraded from Aryans, and these Sudroids then invaded Africa, >giving rise to the Negroes. This is proven by the fact that the genetic >differences between Aryan and non-Aryan are very small. > >EVOLUTION - The theory of evolution of man from monkeys as proposed by >Darwin is completely false. The acharyas have declared that the notion of >holy Brahmanas being descended from monkeys was merely proposed to cast a >slur on the Brahmans and to insult Hinduism. When the sacred revealed >scriptures of Vedas and Mahabharat declare that the Brahmanas were created >from the head of Brahma, how can anything else be true? But Darwin's false >theory was jumped upon by the European scholars to prove their Aryan >invasion theory. > > >OUT OF AFRICA - The African nationalists have propagated the false notion >of all humans having come out of Africa. This was seized upon by the >propagators of the Aryan invasion theory, who claimed that since the >Aryans evolved from Negroes of Africa, they could not have originated in >India, and must have invaded from Africa. This sinister conspiracy has now >gained wide acceptance by anthropologists. > >1 MILLION YEAR OLD VEDAS >Another fiction spread by the Christian scholars is that the Vedas date to >1500 BC. This was because they could not comprehend any date before 3000 >BC, when the Bible says the world was created by God in 7 days. So when >they read of dates and eras millions of years old, they dismissed it as >nonsense. But now it is accepted that the world existed before 3000 BC. In >fact, the Vedas are millions of years old, having been in existence from >the time of creation of the world itself in the yugas. > >GERMAN ARYANS > Another lie propagated by the Europeans is that the Germans were the >purest Aryans. This is evidently not so, since they speak a highly >degraded form of Sanskrit and not the original pure devabhasha. Moreover >the Aryans in India have black hair, which due to snow falling on it >became bleached in the north. So they are not the original Aryans. > >SIVA NON_ARYAN > Another myth propagated by the Europeans is that Shiva was a Dravidian >god. They cite the occurrence of obscene sculptures in the walls of >temples as evidence that Shiva and many other ascpects of Hinduism were of >Dravidian origin. This has been shown to be false, and the sculptures were >made for the entertainment of the European visitors; hippies who came to >India in 100 BC. They are obviously not for the Aryans, who would never >tolerated such things in their sacred shrines. The discovery of some nude >mother-goddess figurines is also cited as evidence that the Indus people >were the aboriginals. In fact these were imported by the European hippies, >who brought their obscene sculptures to India. These hippies were the >Greeks, who brought their obscene Priapus cult (whence the phallic nature >of Shiva worship) and other vulgarities that corrupted the Aryans. As >evidence such sculptures are only found after the Greeks invasded India, >introducing decadent Western culture and proto-AIDS (ancient venereal >diseases) that killed the Aryas. > >SHAKEPEARE AND GREEK ART > The Europeans have indulged in hero-worship of the Greeks (Homer etc.) >and Latin poets. They have also eulogized Shakespeare as `the greatest >writer of all times'. These are all bogus claims, since it has been shown >that these works were in fact renditions of original Sanskrit texts. All >these langauges, Greek, Latin and English, are merely degraded forms of >Sanskrit. Also, their literature is almost wholly copies of Sanskrit >originals. Tnus, Aesop copied the Ocean of Story, Shakespeare copied the >Pancatantra etc. The Trojan War is only a local re-enactment of the >Mahabharat War. So these are merely the degraded Aryas. When the holy >SIndhu river dried up in 1500 BC, they migrated to different parts of the >world, preserving only faint memories of their origins. > >So it is evident that the Arya invasion theory is wrong. > >VED ACHARYA > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Dec 4 17:41:05 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:41:05 -0500 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043272.23782.9787096089701180845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My replies to this post are given in the original text. > On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > While the chart given by Samar Abbas looks nice, it has major > historical problems. By tracing the origins of Urdu exclusively to > Arabic, Persian, and Turkic, the chart overlooks the main core of the > language. In its basic grammatical core and basic vocabulary, Urdu is an > Indo-Aryan language, with Arabic, Persian, and Turkic features > superimposed on this basic IA core. How do you define this core? The core should refer to the original Urdu, as found in its oldest manuscripts. If,as you state, the oldest Urdu manuscripts contain only Indo-Aryan vocaublary, I will agree with you. Which Urdu poet of the Ghaznavid era used IA vocabulary ? None that I am aware of. The oldest Urdu manuscripts and poems unfortunately have few Indo-Aryan features. > It is not that Urdu borrowed the IA > features as a subsequent phenomenon. The IA base absorbed the other > features to become a distinct sub-variety of IA. > Madhav Deshpande As I said, I will agree if I am shown that the oldest Urdu manuscripts and poets (ie. of the Ghaznavid era) onnly contain IA words. But they do not, Moreover, Persian is classed as an Indo-Iranian language, and many Indo-Iranian features thus exist in Urdu. They are due to Iranian influence and not IA. Moreover, it is intuitively clear that Mahmud of Ghazni, iconoclast as he was, would have permitted IA langauges to be used at his court. Some of his coins have Sanskrit inscriptions, but they were mainly for circulation in India. There were no IA speakers in the camps of Ghazni, (though there were Sudroid Dravidian warriors) and so IA influence could not have existed even intuitively speaking. Samar From ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Fri Dec 4 11:41:26 1998 From: ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (jan seifert) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:41:26 +0100 Subject: need of True Type Devanagari fonts In-Reply-To: <36670454.8285D380@uevora.pt> Message-ID: <161227043294.23782.277750838040250412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> do you know, that a set of nagaris built in in os 8.5? better rechange to mac.... greetings jan (another way: the built ins are tt so you may try to use them on win) ------------------------------------------------ end of transmission From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Dec 4 17:45:41 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:45:41 -0500 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043274.23782.940427539845142947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Richard Barz wrote: > Perhaps the most straightforward way of looking at the linguistic genealogy > of Hindi and Urdu would be to say that Urdu is a development of the > Indo-Aryan spoken language of Delhi with an addition of Persian vocabulary > (which includes a large proportion of Arabic words). This would be correct if Urdu arose at Delhi. In fact it arose in Ghazni in Afghanistan during the reign of Mahmud of Ghazni. So there was no possibility of any IA influence. The only influence was Iranic, and thismay have confused some scholars to assume IA influence. > Hindi stems from 19th > century Urdu written in Devanagari script with the replacement of much > Persian vocabulary with borrowings from Sanskrit. I agree with this. > > To the pre-modern literary languages of North India mentioned by Ruth > Schmidt one should add Maithili. > Yes, Mithili existed for a very long time and has a rich heritage. Samar From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 4 07:24:26 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:54:26 +0530 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <199812030846.OAA14422@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043278.23782.11424570576163166425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since my name appeared in Subrahmania's mail and I have a free moment, I think I will contribute a few lines: > Remember the time when Swamiji was writing, the late 19th century, a > time when "race sciences" were the in thing. Swamiji was far ahead of > his time and does not have to be defended. First Subrahmania defends Vivekananda by saying he was a child of his time. In the next sentence he says V. was ahead of his time... Great. What makes V. relevant is that he is still seen as a cultural figurehead today; 19th-century Western 'race scientists' have no such status in the West. V.'s admirers and defenders are clearly lagging behind. Elsewhere, he wrote: > Do you think that the Indian scholars will gain anything > financially or politically? Again, "the Indian scholars"... Please tell us, Subrahmania, why do you not write more precisely 'indigenous Aryanists', or something like that? It is *not* a matter of "India vs. the rest of the world". Yes, they do gain. _The Hindu_ has run several articles over the past few months about how the present Indian government has been restructuring the Indian Council for Historical Research and has attempted to do the same with the Centre for Advanced Study in Simla, by appointing people with such ideas in those bodies. Members of the Simla institute have written their protest in the Indian press. > I find it amazing that people are so eager and willing to attribute > political motives against Indian scholars, but do not have the > courage to look at their own motives and prejudices. Not "Indian scholars"... Subrahmania, PLEASE STOP THIS VICIOUS DEMAGOGY. The identity of a scholar as "Indian" does *not* depend on whether one supports the indigenous Aryan theory or not. At the Ann Arbor / Lausanne conference, with participants from different countries, an _Indian scholar, from India_ requested that the conference issue a statement condemning the political pressure put to bear on historians in India. Understandably, nobody wanted the conference to become politicised, hence nothing of the sort happened. The scholar at the end expressed relief that the results vindicated those in India who do not toe the present 'politically correct' line. Lars Fosse has already invited you to analyse the motives and prejudices of persons like himself, Witzel and myself. *Please* do that. Don't be shy or cowardly. Tell me what _my_ "motives and prejudices" are. (But please do it quickly. I will be out of town next week and will temporarily unsubscribe, and then I cannot see you teach me about myself. :-) ) On the other hand, if you continue to pretend to be certain that persons like Fosse, Witzel and I write out of pernicious motives and prejudices, and yet if you cannot do better than pollute this list with demagogy and further silly insults, then please do your > more important things RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 4 07:25:03 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:55:03 +0530 Subject: Orientalism (was: Re: SV: Vicious Debate) In-Reply-To: <199812030846.OAA14422@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043280.23782.17949444914703868180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > Want to read critiques, both for and against, > on E. Said's Orientalism thesis. > Any references will be appreciated. > > Recently, R. Zydenbos told that this has been > exploded. What comes to mind here is what Halbfass has written in the collection of articles _Beyond Orientalism: The Work of Wilhelm Halbfass and its Impact on Indian and Cross-cultural Studies_, ed. E. Franco and K. Preisendanz (Amsterdam / Atlanta: Rodopi, 1997). It was reviewed by J.E.M. Houben not very long ago in the _IIAS Newsletter_ (no. 15 (Winter 1998), p. 16.). Houben quotes Halbfass, who in the book asks whether he, by studying India, is an agent of evil colonial powers. (I too ask that question now and then.) Also examples of Said's tendentious sloppiness are given. RZ From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Dec 4 17:56:51 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 12:56:51 -0500 Subject: Urdu and Hindsutani In-Reply-To: <01BE1EB0.9FA942E0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043276.23782.16666658546882772950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My replies to Ashish Chandra are below. On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > It was just about the crappiest pieces I have seen in a long time. I apologize for his language. It is to be hoped that he phases out his use of such vulgarities in his postings. He is also advised to use scientific methods and arguments. > You have the gall to call the invaders "liberators" ? How dare you. Most indologists agree in calling the few centuries preceding the Delhi Sultanate as a `dark age'. This was after the fall of the mighty empries of the Mauryas and Guptas, after the Huns had invaded India. Many features of post-Gupta society are considered barbaric by many. Thus they were in a sense liberators. > Hindi has > existed long before Urdu was born. Please note: Hindi, Hindu, Hindustani are all Perso-Arabic words. THey are not found in original Sanskrit. The name of the language being non-IA is against an IA origin of Hindustani. > It was never a language of learning > per > se but its form has existed long before the so-called "greatest empire" of > your ancestors came into being in Bharatvarsha. The languages that existed before that empire weree Kanauji, Braj and Mithili. They were never referred to as `Hindi' by their speakers, who considered Hindi a short form of Hindustani, and hence a Muslim language. Braj and Kanauji are still spoken, but their usage is declining, being replaced by Hindustani, the language of the Mughal Empire. Samar From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Dec 4 12:46:29 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 13:46:29 +0100 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043296.23782.16661277942592242944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Samar Abbas, > >If you had read my reply to your post, you would have seen that I gave the >reference for the Ghaznavid origin of Urdu: `Alberuni's India', transl. >E.C.Sachau, vol.ii, p.253-258 clearly states that the origin of Urdu was >in the Ghaznavid camps. Another good reference is A.Springer in >`Catalogue of the Arabic, Persian and Hindustani Manuscripts of the >libraries of the King of Oudh', Calcutta 1854 pp.405 ff he mentions the >works by Masud during the Ghaznavid era. The King of Oudh still had >manuscripts by Masud in his library. Some more comments are at the >appropriate places below. I have run out of time; so I guess there will >still be theories claiming a Khari Boli origin for Urdu and a Sioux origin >for American English (and maybe a Celtic origin for Norwegian). Please, Samar Abbas Sahib, I was not the author of any trival remarks, like mentioning a Sioux origin for American English, which might be taken amiss. My apologies for not checking your reference earlier. I have before me E.C. Sachau, Albiruni's India, Vol. II (1910), pp. 253-258 (annotations on Abiruni by Sachau). I find the following references to Hindi on pp. 257-8: "In a similar way to Albiruni, the poet Mir Khusrau discourses on classical and vernacular in his Nuh-sipihr [a Persian work]. He mentions the word Sanskrit, while Alberuni only speaks of Hindi... There were Hindi dragomans in the service of Mahmud, both in the civil administration and in the army, large portions of which were Hindus under Hindu officers...Part of these troops were Kannara, i.e., natives of KarnatadeSa... A specimen of these interpreters is Tilak, the son of Jai Sen...After having pursued his studies in Kashmir, he became interpreter first to Kadi Shirazi Bulhasan Ali, a high civil official under Mahmud and Masud, and rose afterward to be a commanding officer in the army...This class of men spoke and wrote Hindi (of course with Arabic characters) and Persian (perhaps also Turkish, as this language prevailed in the army) and it is probably in these circles that we must look for the origin of Urdu or Hindustani. The first author who wrote in this language is one Masud, who died a little more than a century after the death of King Mahmud (A.H. 525 = A.D. 1131). Cf. Sprenger, Catalogue of the Arabic, Persian and Hindustany Manuscripts of of the Libraries of the King of Oudh," Calcutta 1854, pp. 407, 485. If we had any of the Hindi writings of those times, they would probably exhibit the same kind of Indian speech as that which is found in Alberuni's book." This passage dates the manuscript in Hindi to a poet Masud who died in 1131. It would be nice to have a look at the manuscript. The only "Indian speech" I can find in Sachau's translation of Alberuni appears to be Sanskrit, not surprising as it was still an important literary language at the time. The passage distinguishes between the Persian and Hindi languages, and mentions an interpreter, Tilak, who pursued his studies in Kashmir (which was early a center of Persian learning). But "Hind" meant India in Persian, and "Hindi" might well be used with reference to any Indian language. The important thing is that the Indian language(s) were not understood by the Persians, so that they required someone to translate them. It would not be surprising if a creole began to develop under these circumstances, but we have few written traces of it. Sachau is of the opinion that the origin of Urdu or Hindustany must be sought in the army of Mahmud. This 88-year old statement must be understood in the light of the considerable research on texts which has been done in the meanwhile. The Hindu troops which served under Mahmud brought their own speech, about which we know little except a name, and they encountered Persian as an administrative language. This process continued for some seven to eight hundred years, and the complex interactions between the various Indian speeches of the Punjab and Delhi area, with Persian, are still being traced. I believe I have already responded to your other comments as best as I can, so end this thread here. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 4 23:04:51 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 15:04:51 -0800 Subject: Urdu and Hindsutani Message-ID: <161227043330.23782.14254052727716002284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas writes: > >> You have the gall to call the invaders "liberators" ? How dare you. > > Most indologists agree in calling the few centuries preceding the Delhi Sultanate as a `dark age'. This was after the fall of the mighty empries of the Mauryas and Guptas, after the Huns had invaded India. Many features of post-Gupta society are considered barbaric by many. Thus they were in a sense liberators.>> My dear Samar, I am genuienly confused now...It is true that the Gupta period is called the "Golden Age of the Guptas" but which historian has classified the few centuries preceding the Delhi sultanate as "The Dark ages"? What exactly do you have in mind when you say "features of post-Gupta period were considered barbaric"? If, by barbaric, you are refering to the ravages of worthies like Mahmud of Ghazni, then I would agree:-)...About the only place where I have seen something along the lines of the stuff you have written is in Nehru's "Glimpses of World History", but then Nehru can hardly be called an interpreter of history.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From slaje at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE Fri Dec 4 14:24:21 1998 From: slaje at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 15:24:21 +0100 Subject: Epic DAIVAM In-Reply-To: <8dcb0e87.36679a41@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227043303.23782.16655724294672962582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I suggest to try the Journal of Indian Philosophy 26(1): 27-50 (Nasti daive prabhutvam, however, in English), where one (!) particular notion of the concept has been dealt with and where the historical development of the term can be found at least touched upon? Walter Slaje Institute or Indology Martin-Luther-University Halle-Wittenberg (Germany) From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Dec 4 20:41:12 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 15:41:12 -0500 Subject: Against Aryan Invasions In-Reply-To: <8dcb0e87.36679a41@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227043288.23782.8259609330186082209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re. the recent debate on Aryan invasions, I think this is a good summary of the points that are raised against the idea. It was posted by Ved Acharya to Usenet. _________________________________________________________________ Author: Ved Acharya Email: ved_acharya at vedas.bharat.org Date: 1998/12/04 Forums: soc.culture.indian, soc.culture.tamil, sci.anthropology, alt.religion.hindu AGAINST ARYAN INVASIONS The fallacious concept of Aryan Invasions is now wholly discarded by the most sacred acharyas and sannyasis. These august persons have declared that the Aryan invasion was a theory proposed by the crafty British who wished to divide and rule. We have amassed a wealth of evidence in their favour: 1. HORSE BONES - The horse bones found in the Indus cities were wrongly claimed to belong to Aryan invaders. Instead they could equally well have been due to large scale ashvamedhas (horse-sacrifices) by the pious Vedic Aryans. Charred horse bones substantiate this view. 2. FRACTURED SKULLS - The fractured skulls that the biased Europeans said were those of Dravidians slaughtered by invading Aryans were in fact the bones of pious volunteers sacrificed during purushamedhas (Vedic human sacrifices). 3. THICH ASH LAYERS - The mischievious Europeans proposed that the thick ash layers found in the Indus cities were due to Aryans burning down the Dravidian Indus cities. In fact these could have well been the ashes of the pious Vedic Aryan ladies performing sati and jauhar. Some fragments of charred bones substantiate this fact, and many bangles have been found in the IVC. 4. FALL OF THE INDUS - The Europeans have always claimed that the Indus Valley civilization was destroyed by the nomad Ayrans. In fact, it was destroyed by the Dravidians who invaded from the sea, and the Muslims, who invaded from the north. Europeans have always tried to portray Islam as a young religion, when in fact Abraham and all the Jews and Christians were in fact Muslim. So Muslims existed in the centuries BC, and the concept of Muslims having destroyed the Indus is confirmed by the numerous temples (like the Rama mandir at Ayodhya ) being destroyed by Muslims. References to Yavana invasions in the sacred Poorans also confirm this fact. 5. SUDROID RACE - The Imperialist scholars tried to propagate the notion of the Sudroid race to divide the Hindus. These were supposed to be the black aboriginals enslaved by the Aryans. This is all falsehood, as will be shown point-by point below: - The sage Vivekanada has declared that this theory is false. So how can it be right ? - Some Dravida chauvinists claim that Dravidian is older than Sanskrit. These are deluded, since these languages have no independant history; they are merely degraded forms of Sanskrit. The recent `purification' of Tamil by the removal of Sanskrit words is merely delusion spread by the Europeans. Both shall be reborn as cockroaches in their next life. - Moreover, the sacred Poorans declare that the Dravidians are degraded Kshatriyas, and so they are the Aryans. The Sudras were created from the foot of Brahma. Since this could have happened when Brahma stood in a puddle of mud, the Sudras became black. Unfortunately the Europeans do not accept the Vedas as anthropological texts, and so the holy Panditas have given anthropological revelations to convince the European mlecchas (barbarians). Thus, the Sudras stayed in the sun, and so got black skin. They took to eating pan leaf, so they developed thick lips. They were employed as hunters, and so they had to develop broad noses to smell better. Thus the concept of a Sudra race is wrong. SUDROID NEGROES - Another concept propagated by the African nationalists is the concept of the Sudras being Negroes, who built up the Indus Valley civilization. These Sudric Negroes were then enslaved by the white Aryans, just as Bantu Negroes were enslaved by the Anglo-Saxons. They do not realize that they are all Indian, and are hence all Aryans. The Sudras became the Sudanese, and the Gonds became the Kongos (whence Congo river). Thus the Negroes are all Indian, just as the Anglo-Saxons are. As shown above the Sudroids degraded from Aryans, and these Sudroids then invaded Africa, giving rise to the Negroes. This is proven by the fact that the genetic differences between Aryan and non-Aryan are very small. EVOLUTION - The theory of evolution of man from monkeys as proposed by Darwin is completely false. The acharyas have declared that the notion of holy Brahmanas being descended from monkeys was merely proposed to cast a slur on the Brahmans and to insult Hinduism. When the sacred revealed scriptures of Vedas and Mahabharat declare that the Brahmanas were created from the head of Brahma, how can anything else be true? But Darwin's false theory was jumped upon by the European scholars to prove their Aryan invasion theory. OUT OF AFRICA - The African nationalists have propagated the false notion of all humans having come out of Africa. This was seized upon by the propagators of the Aryan invasion theory, who claimed that since the Aryans evolved from Negroes of Africa, they could not have originated in India, and must have invaded from Africa. This sinister conspiracy has now gained wide acceptance by anthropologists. 1 MILLION YEAR OLD VEDAS Another fiction spread by the Christian scholars is that the Vedas date to 1500 BC. This was because they could not comprehend any date before 3000 BC, when the Bible says the world was created by God in 7 days. So when they read of dates and eras millions of years old, they dismissed it as nonsense. But now it is accepted that the world existed before 3000 BC. In fact, the Vedas are millions of years old, having been in existence from the time of creation of the world itself in the yugas. GERMAN ARYANS Another lie propagated by the Europeans is that the Germans were the purest Aryans. This is evidently not so, since they speak a highly degraded form of Sanskrit and not the original pure devabhasha. Moreover the Aryans in India have black hair, which due to snow falling on it became bleached in the north. So they are not the original Aryans. SIVA NON_ARYAN Another myth propagated by the Europeans is that Shiva was a Dravidian god. They cite the occurrence of obscene sculptures in the walls of temples as evidence that Shiva and many other ascpects of Hinduism were of Dravidian origin. This has been shown to be false, and the sculptures were made for the entertainment of the European visitors; hippies who came to India in 100 BC. They are obviously not for the Aryans, who would never tolerated such things in their sacred shrines. The discovery of some nude mother-goddess figurines is also cited as evidence that the Indus people were the aboriginals. In fact these were imported by the European hippies, who brought their obscene sculptures to India. These hippies were the Greeks, who brought their obscene Priapus cult (whence the phallic nature of Shiva worship) and other vulgarities that corrupted the Aryans. As evidence such sculptures are only found after the Greeks invasded India, introducing decadent Western culture and proto-AIDS (ancient venereal diseases) that killed the Aryas. SHAKEPEARE AND GREEK ART The Europeans have indulged in hero-worship of the Greeks (Homer etc.) and Latin poets. They have also eulogized Shakespeare as `the greatest writer of all times'. These are all bogus claims, since it has been shown that these works were in fact renditions of original Sanskrit texts. All these langauges, Greek, Latin and English, are merely degraded forms of Sanskrit. Also, their literature is almost wholly copies of Sanskrit originals. Tnus, Aesop copied the Ocean of Story, Shakespeare copied the Pancatantra etc. The Trojan War is only a local re-enactment of the Mahabharat War. So these are merely the degraded Aryas. When the holy SIndhu river dried up in 1500 BC, they migrated to different parts of the world, preserving only faint memories of their origins. So it is evident that the Arya invasion theory is wrong. VED ACHARYA From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Dec 4 21:02:00 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 16:02:00 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan In-Reply-To: <01BE1ECA.D72E10A0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043290.23782.2350836889348080778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is no reason to suppose that caste was based on profession at any time in ancient India. Caste arose whenever members of one race conquered members of a different race. The different castes in India can still be distinguished as to when they entered India. Thus, Ahirs are Avars, Thakurs are Tokharians, Jats are Getae and the Rajputs are all Indo-Scyth. Each now forms a separate caste. Moreover, the Sudras are the Negroid inhaitants of India who were subjected to the lowest caste. A caste systems have arisen in the southern US, etc. I have given more replies below: On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > N. Ganesan wrote : > > Social reformers in the South have been calling for reforms within > Hinduism. That is, Priesthood and Sankaracharyaship should become available > for any Hindu, not for a particular group determined just by birth. For > Hinduism to become modern, the only qualifications to be a priest or a > Sankaracharya, must be 1) be a Hindu Hindu is taken as a synonym for Aryan nowadays. > and 2) be proficient in Samskrit and > few more Indian languages. But the texts of the Dravidian Shaivite religion are in Dravidian languages. What you suggest goes against the sacred Aryan Hindu scriptures, which forbid a non-Aryan from doing these things. > > > I could not agree more. In fact, one should take process a step further and > base the interpretation of caste purely as our scriptures define them, i.e. > not by birth but intellectual/physical inclinations. Show me one person who has changed his caste. The fact is, it is racial in basis. > There is no need for > people like Mulayam Singh Yadav to be considered a backward caste just as a > so-called forward caste can't be one just by being born into one of the > Traivarnikas. The scriptures state that only Aryans can belong to the three varnas or colours. This was meant to prevent racial mixing, and is advocated by eugenicists today. > A Brahmin engaged in trade is not a Brahmin anymore and > should not consider himself as such. But he is still an Arya. A negroid Sudra obviously cannot become and Aryan, whether in India or in the US South. > Of course, this process will take > decades if not centuries but it is an ideal well chosen and based on our > own scriptures. Then you are talking about some `new' religion. It is not Aryan Vaishnava Orthodoxy, which is as strong as ever. > > Ashish > Samar From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Dec 4 05:22:39 1998 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 16:22:39 +1100 Subject: Urdu speakers Message-ID: <161227043268.23782.13832067699272259827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps the most straightforward way of looking at the linguistic genealogy of Hindi and Urdu would be to say that Urdu is a development of the Indo-Aryan spoken language of Delhi with an addition of Persian vocabulary (which includes a large proportion of Arabic words). Hindi stems from 19th century Urdu written in Devanagari script with the replacement of much Persian vocabulary with borrowings from Sanskrit. To the pre-modern literary languages of North India mentioned by Ruth Schmidt one should add Maithili. Richard Barz ANU Canberra > From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Dec 4 21:56:02 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 16:56:02 -0500 Subject: Urdu speakers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043292.23782.4190237162003137652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ruth Schmid If you had read my reply to your post, you would have seen that I gave the reference for the Ghaznavid origin of Urdu: `Alberuni's India', transl. E.C.Sachau, vol.ii, p.253-258 clearly states that the origin of Urdu was in the Ghaznavid camps. Another good reference is A.Springer in `Catalogue of the Arabic, Persian and Hindustani Manuscripts of the libraries of the King of Oudh', Calcutta 1854 pp.405 ff he mentions the works by Masud during the Ghaznavid era. The King of Oudh still had manuscripts by Masud in his library. Some more comments are at the appropriate places below. I have run out of time; so I guess there will still be theories claiming a Khari Boli origin for Urdu and a Sioux origin for American English (and maybe a Celtic origin for Norwegian). On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Dear Sama Abbas, > > Please give me the names of the texts in Zaban-e-Urdu written by Mahmud of > Ghazi so that I may take a look at them. To the best of my knowledge the Actually they were by Masud and not by Mahmud of Ghazni himself, as I had stated earlier. > only texts earlier than Amir Khusrau are Nath texts in Saddhukari. If texts The earlier ones are largely lost. They existed in 1854 in the library of the King of Oudh, but I don't know if they still exist in MS form. No paper manuscript exists in India before the 12th century. > by Mahmud of Ghazni exist, I suspect they would be in Persian, as this was > the language used by the various Muslim conquerors until the end of the > Mughal Empire. A Persian text does not prove than the language of Ghazni is > the same as Old Urdu. Yes, that is correct. But any non-standard Persian text could be taken as a precursor of Urdu. If Old Urdu is derived from Persian, there would be transitional phases. Such a phase exists in Indo-Persian. Many texts exist in the Indo-Persian languages. Indo-Persian is like Indo-Portuguese, the local dialect of Persian, and like American English. ( You can see the Ethnologue database I had suggested to you earlier at www.sil.org/ethnologue where they estimate the number of Indo-Portugues speakers as being 700. They could not get data for Indo-Persian though.) Except that here Indo-Persian developed into a separate langauge, while American did not (although some say it did). A gradual divergence can be seen from Persian, as per the tree: Persian -> Indo-Persian -> Urdu > We must have more than a reference to a name, as Zaban-e-Urdu mnerely means > "language of the camp" and does not carry any linguistic information. In > which text is this reference, and does the text supply any samples of the > speech of "Zaban-e-Urdu"? I suggest some materials on the Ghaznavid era (any material will do, including the ones I have given above). > The term "Sanskrit-centric Brahmanical fundamentalist scholars" could > hardly be applied to scholars like Abdul Haq and Inshaullah Khan and many > other serious scholars who have worked on Urdu. Please supply the names of > the scholars whose work you rely on. I do not resort to attacking persons by name; I use only facts. Personal attacks are unfortunately too common in this field, which I will not resort to. I think persons can always change their view as new data emerges, which is the scientific viewpoint. Unfortunately nationalism, dogma, etc. are more often behind the views propagated in this field. > > We cannot throw out the principles of historical linguistics before we even > begin our analysis. Several hundred years of historical research on many It is only in recent times that the Sanskrit origin of Urdu was proposed. Several centuries of Urdu speakers saw their language as being derived from Persian, etc. As you say, hundreds of years of historical research should not be thrown out. You are coming close to what I am saying, and I know that intuitively you feel that what I am saying is right. Unfortunately time does not permit me to continue this thread. So let me stop here. Samar From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Dec 4 16:28:07 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 17:28:07 +0100 Subject: Chin-sheng (688-740 AD), T'ang dynasty In-Reply-To: <19981204153539.14993.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043309.23782.4648386134848995163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan asks: >Shu Hikosaka says: > >"Chin-sheng (ChishO, 688-740 AD) of T'ang dynasty >has also mentioned about Malaya country is near >the Potalaka mountain which is the place of >Avalokitezvara." > >Who is Chin-sheng? Any books, papers on him >in Chinese, Japanese or Western languages? > >Thanks, >N. Ganesan > My colleague C. Harbsmeier (sinologist), who happened to be in my room when your message came, suggests that you consult the publications of Wang Gang-wu (former president of Hong Kong University) to find relevant information about the author in question. Best wishes G.v.Simson From bprasad at CISCO.COM Sat Dec 5 01:52:00 1998 From: bprasad at CISCO.COM (Bal Prasad) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 17:52:00 -0800 Subject: Urdu and Hindustani In-Reply-To: <199812050000.QAA22986@proxy3.cisco.com> Message-ID: <161227043332.23782.4730613677728425519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- Samar Abbas enscribed thusly -- > Sanskrit was created in 500 BC by Panini et al and did not exist before that. Foot in the mouth??? Later when writing about the muslim invaders of India, he claims ... > Thus they were in a sense liberators. In the same sense that Nazis were 'liberators' of Jews??? Methinks a rather bigoted slip is showing. -Prasad From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 4 17:20:12 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 22:20:12 +0500 Subject: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043319.23782.5046069839539313646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:15 AM 12/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > >Does anyone have a good translation for epic 'daivam'? > >'Fate' or 'destiny' seem to be terms which have very little relation to >pre-classical kshatriya culture. > >I am aware of Shulman's article in the Heesterman Festschrift, but that is >not conclusive. > >Devaat Aagatam does not really help us too much in explaining what is >action for an epic kshatriya. > >Thanks, > > > Kevin McGrath. > > >Sanskrit Dept. >Harvard College. > > In sanskrit literature and in the psyche of Hindus (and in the other religions also) there is a belief that for any endevour to bear fruit two things are neccessary. One is human effort and the other is the bunch of all other factors and circumstances which are not in individual's control. The first factor is called "paurusham" or "purusha prayatnam". The second factor is called "daivam". For an endevour to bear fruit the other factors and circumstaneces should permit it. This is called "daiva anukUlyam". The reason for using the word 'daivam' is the belief that it is god/gods that control these other factors. Hence the expressions "god willing" "inshA allAh" in christianity and islam. Another belief is that god will be favourably disposed to your endevours if you have "good karma". In the anuzAsana parva of mahAbhArata the sixth chapter (uncritical edition of Gita Press) is devoted to this question. The first sloka of this chapter starts with query which dharmarAja makes of bhISma pitAmaha! mahAprAjJa! sarvazAstravizArada! daivE puruSakArE ca kiMsvicchrESThataraM bhavEt. regards, sarma. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 4 17:21:08 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 22:21:08 +0500 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate Message-ID: <161227043316.23782.11149675354629610135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree completely with Sri Subrahmanya about his observations about Swami Vivekananda. To call Swami Vivekananda a racist taking some select quotations from his writings without reference to the circumstances prevailing at that time is bad and without doubt motivated analysis. We should not forget Swami Vivekananda was a great admirer of American people and a number of westerners and Americans in particular became his devotees. Some of them adopted India as their country and did selfless service to India. If Swamiji was a racist they would not have done that. Even when Dr.Zydenbos wrote earlier about Swamiji I felt very bad and wanted to write, but refrained because I put myself in his place and examined what will be my reaction if as a christian I read those things. regards, sarma. At 08:58 AM 12/3/98 -0600, S.N. subrahmanya wrote: >In response to Dr.Zydenbos: >As for your comments about Swami Vivekananda - I think that they >do not even merit a response. Remember the time when Swamiji >was writing, the late 19th century, a time when "race sciences" were the in >thing. >Swamiji was far ahead of his time and does not have to be defended. >Considering >that Swami Vivekananda was a religious reformer, compare what Swami >Vivekananda >wrote to what Christian missionaries were writing at that time and you can >make >your own judgement. > >Subrahmanya. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 5 14:23:05 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 06:23:05 -0800 Subject: Kashmir 'Saivism Message-ID: <161227043362.23782.17116232415601553143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *An eye-witness just recently told me how in a *public lecture Lakshman Joo of Kashmir told some *female devotees of his that they were ugly because *they were Americans, and they were delighted. Reading Lakshman Joo's books. Is he one of the only few 'Saivaites of Kashmir? Always wondering why Kashmir 'Saivism attracts so much Weatern academic interest? Enjoying many publications. It is good, then we can compare these materials to Southern 'Saivism. As I read on Kashmir 'Saivism, its texts are only from 9th century onwards. Tamil 'Saivaite texts are from 5th century onwards (Karaikkaal Ammai whose sculptures first start under the feet of NatarAja in South East Asia first, then only in Tamil South in granite and bronze). NatarAja is never mentined in Kashmir Saivaite texts. Tamil material must be 50 times abundant on 'Saivism compared to Kashmir Saivism. Does K. 'Saivam have impact from Buddhism too? In Tantraloka, Abhinavagupta talks of ideas getting into Kashmir from kumarikaadviipa (Tamil South). Are there any references on the relations, commonalities, contrasts between Kashmir and Southern 'Saivisms? I look for a monograph in the future where three scholars of religion, one who has studied 'saivaagamas, one who who has studied Tamil 'Saivaite texts and agamas, and a scholar on Kashmir 'Saivism collaborate and write. BTW, what is the opinion on Alain Danielou, While the Gods play? This emphasizes on Dravidianness of 'Saivism. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 5 02:13:02 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 07:43:02 +0530 Subject: Vicious debate on Aryan, Non-Aryan Message-ID: <161227043334.23782.17760798188695903629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan Cc: Dec 4, 98 The 'Maharashtrian' zeal for 'vicious debate' involving Aryan and Non-Aryan division has in recent times centred around Charvak, who is taken by some motivated writers as the champion of Non-Aryan opposition to Vedic cult. In his thesis on Charvak and other writings, A. H. Salunkhe, a Sanskrit scholar and a champion of the non-Brahmanic school of thought, relates Charvak to the mythological Asura cult and the pre-historical Indus valley culture. (S. N. Dasgupta goes to the extent of tracing Charvak to Assyrian origin.) My article in Marathi focussing on Salunkhe's works (Charvakache Punarutthan) has been published in Navabharat, April-May 1998. My article on this subject in English focussing on D. P. Chattopadhyay's Lokayata (The Resurrection of Charvaka) will be published in near future in Prof. M. A. Mehendale Felicitation Volume. In both, I have questioned the validity of research in which imagination enjoys priority over evidence, -- the type of research Indian intellectuals have borrowed from the West. Would the term 'motivated' be a better substitute for 'vicious'? KSA From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 5 08:20:35 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 08:20:35 +0000 Subject: [Announcement] New Devanagari-editor (fwd) Message-ID: <161227043349.23782.12021657020908312957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Haunert is offering a brand new Devanagari/transliteration editing program which he has written. There is a free test version, and the registration price is moderate. Here are details. DW ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:58:53 -0500 From: Peter Haunert Subject: Devanagari-editor [...] A new editor for Devanagari and transliteration running under Windows 3.1 and higher that is called "Devakey". I have worked hard to make my program DEVAKEY bug-free and user-friendly and I think it?s good enough now to give it a first look. What I am just now working on is the possibility of editing the keyboard-layout through a comfortable user menu. That will be available soon. It is already easy to change the keyboard by editing an ASCII-file. This functionality makes it possible to use Devakey in any country ? even in Japan, etc. I hope. Anyway the software creates all the ligatures, etc., so you don?t have to memorize any finger-acrobatics. I have set up a Website for "Devakey" where you can download a fully functional version (only you cannot save texts without registering). I offer the program to all Indology-members for 125 DM (= 70 US$). If several copies are ordered or if someone finds the price too high, because he is from India or a low-income country, etc. then other prices may be negotiated. If you like the version you downloaded, it can be made complete by entering a registration-number. Also free updates are available from the website, a sample-text to see the font, and you can have a online-look at the manual, to see how easy "Devakey" is to use. Also you will find a detailed description of the features of Devakey ? you can write in transliteration or in Nagari, - you can switch between the two, - you can import and export files in different formats. Some problems are still with the Itrans-format, but CSX import and CSXplus export work well. And I?m waiting for the new 7bit standard for email to get finalized. The Internet-address of "Devakey" is http://www.netlink.de/sanskrit I would like to invite everyone from Indology to test "Devakey" and to give some input for further developement. Kind regards, Peter Peter Haunert phaunert at altavista.net from Berlin, Germany From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Dec 5 13:29:59 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 08:29:59 -0500 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043356.23782.3108797777714732066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > Complete Works vol. 7, p. 283). Of course it is ridiculous to admire > Americans or whatever people totally and indiscriminately (thus > S.N. Subrahmanya, Bijoy Misra a.o. have seen that I refuse to admire > uncritically each and every thing that comes from India and claims to be > "Indian"). That Vivekananda said nice things about America does not mean > that he did not have some nasty ideas as well. A balanced, unbiassed, I do not know Dr. RJZ personally. His various postings have been cotroversial and the views are partisan. I always thought partisan views had no place in a discussion group like this. Putting Vivekananda's prceived racism is no academic research, in my opinion.. Those are in politics and religion which have their own forums for debate. Noboby should accept anything because it has an origin. Hence, why should we accept all that simply came from India? At the same time, to look down on Indian scholarship and India's contributions is individual's choice and is not a scholarly pursuit. Let me say that it is disturbing to see the strong partisan current of the exchanges in this list. I sincerely hope that all join in objective Indologic research without any religious or nationalistic bias. Let's try.. - Bijoy Misra From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Dec 5 13:46:32 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 08:46:32 -0500 Subject: Against Aryan Invasions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043358.23782.16431156244006477045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ved Acharya's material is like communist textbooks in Hungary. It's not worth examining the motive or give it any credence. All lies have their natural deaths. One should probably make political protests in UP against fabrication and miseducation People in politics can be dogmatic and we can't do much to change it. Creationist theories are taught in some schools in US, and we just do not have the energy to challenge it. It's local.. From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sat Dec 5 15:39:29 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 10:39:29 -0500 Subject: SV: Against Aryan Invasions Message-ID: <161227043364.23782.14093088641407877496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Samar Abbas wrote: > >> You have questioned the relevance of my repost of Ved Acharya's article. >> Ved Acharya's views are NOW BEING TAUGHT IN INDIAN SCHOOLS. Yes, >> - "Homer and Shakespeare copied Sanskrit classics" is now taught in UP >> schools, and forms part of the syllabus >> - "Germans and Anglo-Saxons are emigrants from the Indus Valley." is also >> taught to kids. >> - "Out-of-Africa is wrong, the Aryans evolved in India" is also taught. >> - "Dravidian and Indo-European languages are derived from Sanskrit" are >> also taught. >> >> These were recently introduced into the syllabi of UP schools, and an >> attempt is being made to introduce these teachings into all Indian >> textbooks. What kind of evidence are the above based on? This seems to be another kind of baseless theory? If this is being taught in Indian schools, the students are the losers. Two wrongs do not make a right. Veering off topic, in most videos on evolution (of course these are backed by years of research and renowned scientists) out of Africa the early man is always dark with no sharp features (i.e., more negroid) whereas the modern man is fair, tall, sharp featured (i.e., more caucasian). To me these programs seem to be spreading a subtle message that negroid=less evolved. Has anyone noticed this? Does it bother you? Sujatha Stephen From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 5 05:44:56 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 11:14:56 +0530 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <199812030846.OAA14422@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043338.23782.7651388986251742848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya wrote: > Zydenbos wrote: > > <...ranting clipped...> > > Tell me what _my_ "motives and prejudices" are. > > > > You are just someone who thinks that any Indian scholar who > doesnt agree to your eurocentric nonsense is politically > motivated. Congratulations. You have again ignored the facts which I mentioned, have again refrained from substantiating your insulting accusations (after two requests from Lars Fosse and one from me), persist in using your vicious, provenly demagogic phrase "Indian scholars", and persist in using empty catchwords like 'eurocentric'. Thank you for showing your true colours and rendering the 'debate' more clear. You may continue it on your own. RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 5 05:45:26 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 11:15:26 +0530 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: <199812030846.OAA14422@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043341.23782.17135854936804569994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > To call Swami Vivekananda a racist taking some select quotations from > his writings without reference to the circumstances prevailing at that > time is bad and without doubt motivated analysis. You will surely remember that at that time I wrote that I was not looking for such statements, nor did I wish to see them. I mentioned them as a necessary corrective to a totally uncritical adulation of Vivekananda which is based on a highly selective reading of his writings -- selective in a different manner. > We should not forget Swami Vivekananda was > a great admirer of American people and a number of westerners and > Americans in particular became his devotees. Some of them adopted > India as their country and did selfless service to India. If Swamiji > was a racist they would not have done that. Things are not so simple as that. We know of coloured people in South Africa who faithfully went to the churches that advocated apartheid and who quietly sat in the pews allotted to them. Apparently they wanted that kind of religion. An eye-witness just recently told me how in a public lecture Lakshman Joo of Kashmir told some female devotees of his that they were ugly because they were Americans, and they were delighted. And by the way, V.'s simplistic essentialisations of ethnic groups deal not only with Euro-Americans. And V. was also selective in his admiration of Americans ("You Americans worship what? The dollar." -- Complete Works vol. 7, p. 283). Of course it is ridiculous to admire Americans or whatever people totally and indiscriminately (thus S.N. Subrahmanya, Bijoy Misra a.o. have seen that I refuse to admire uncritically each and every thing that comes from India and claims to be "Indian"). That Vivekananda said nice things about America does not mean that he did not have some nasty ideas as well. A balanced, unbiassed, truthful evaluation demands that we look at all sides of the issue and are not carried away by our very personal appreciation of a famous person. > Even when Dr.Zydenbos wrote earlier about Swamiji I felt very bad and > wanted to write, but refrained because I put myself in his place and > examined what will be my reaction if as a christian I read those > things. (Do you think that I am a Christian? I have never said so. I also do not see the relevance.) RZ From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat Dec 5 16:17:32 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 11:17:32 -0500 Subject: Urdu and Hindsutani In-Reply-To: <19981204230451.12030.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043336.23782.14182978453089366328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, S Krishna wrote: > > My dear Samar, I am genuienly confused now...It is true that the Gupta > period is called the "Golden Age of the Guptas" but which historian > has classified the few centuries preceding the Delhi sultanate as > "The Dark ages"? What exactly do you have in mind when you say "features > of post-Gupta period were considered barbaric"? Compared to the splendid Gupta empire, the period following its disruption involved a period of almost continuous warfare among the various petty kingdoms. The Huns invaded from India, destroying the Gupta culture. > If, by barbaric, you are > refering to the ravages of worthies like Mahmud of Ghazni, then I would > agree:-)... No doubt these were ravages, but you must realize that the Huns, and many other allied tribes had entered into India during the post-Gupta empire. It is recorded that Mihirakula persecuted Buddhists and was very cruel. So Mahmud was not the first in the line, but rather a late-comer. By barbaric, I was only referring to post-Gupta society, not the Gupta. Thus large-scale sati was practiced; the rigid caste system and religious persecution as those by Mihirakula were other features. There seems to have been constant warfare as the small `Gupta successor' petty states fought one another. > About the only place where I have seen something along the > lines of the stuff you have written is in Nehru's "Glimpses of World > History", but then Nehru can hardly be called an interpreter of > history.... That is true; it may not be explicitly stated in text books, but I am not aware of any historian who classes the post-Gupta period as a Golden Age. It is implicitly implied in the standard text-books today (ie. `Marxist histories') that the post-Gupta period was similar to that after the fall of any great empire: a collapse of the economy. a decline in trade and material well-being, and general confusion. This happended after the fall of the Roman Empire, as well as after the fall of the Soviet Empire. Nehru may not be an interpreter of history, but his view represented the general official line which was subsequently taken by the Govt. of India and is still to be found (as you say, it may not be explicitly stated, but it is implicit ) in standard text-books published by that body today. I am also not aware of even the RSS and BJP historians claiming that the post-Gupta period was a `Golden Age' (please correct me if I am wrong). Samar From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat Dec 5 16:43:54 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 11:43:54 -0500 Subject: Urdu and Hindustani In-Reply-To: <199812050152.RAA28110@sj-cse-264.cisco.com> Message-ID: <161227043342.23782.14726133035054590194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Bal Prasad wrote: > -- Samar Abbas enscribed thusly -- > > Sanskrit was created in 500 BC by Panini et al and did not exist before that. > > Foot in the mouth??? The modern view is that the Vedic and `Classical' Sanskrit languages are different languages. It may sound strange, but the word `Sanskrit' is not found in the Vedas, it is found in much later texts of the Mahabharata and Ramayana. So it is perhaps wrong to call the language of the Vedas as `Sanskrit', as was done some time back, but as `Vedic'. Sanskrit is derived from the Vedic language. Features found in the Prakrits can also be traced to the Vedic language, but are not found in Sanskrit. So the family tree is: Vedic (Old Indo-Aryan) / \ Sanskrit Prakrits Also, Vedic is close to the language spoken by the early Aryans (referred to as Old Indo-Aryan); while Sanskrit was never the language of the masses, and the elite that used Sanskrit used it as a second language. This is the standard view; I personally feel that Vedic was actually spoken by the `average Aryan'. Moreover, the language of the Vedas was `pure' Vedic; while Sanskrit has a large fraction of non-Aryan vocabulary (some say more than 50 %). This has given rise to the `Dravidian origin of Sanskrit' theory. So since Panini codified Classical Sanskrit, I simply stated that he `created Sanskrit'. With people claiming that Sanskrit is derived from Tamil (Indians and no `foreigners'), why should they get so upset when I say Panini created Sanskrit ? What I am saying is not eccentric, as some persons on this list would have us believe, but can be found in standard text books. Only thing is, I am saying it in a much clearer fashion than it ordinarily is; and I state things that most people knew intuitively. I admit the statement may be construed controversial, but I invite anybody to prove my statment wrong: `Panini created Sanskrit', and `The Vedas are in the Vedic Language'. Read my posts, I have never `insulted' the Vedic language in any way. > > Later when writing about the muslim invaders of India, he claims ... > > Thus they were in a sense liberators. > > In the same sense that Nazis were 'liberators' of Jews??? > Methinks a rather bigoted slip is showing. In my previous postings I had discussed the short-comings of the post-Gupta period; I would like to state that the lot of the average Hindu under the Islamic Empire was better than that before. Don't misunderstand me; I am comparing it to the post-Gupta `dark age', and not with Ram-rajya. The Islamic Empire was much larger than those that existed immediately preceding it, and there was an upsurge in trade and economic development. Alexander the Great may have conquered, but the lot of the `conquered races' was better during the Hellenistic empires than immediately preceding it (due to the growth in trade); and similarly Mahmud of Ghazni may have conquered, but the standard of living in India improved due to economic development (this is my opinion, and not accepted by many people). Samar From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sat Dec 5 07:36:47 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 12:36:47 +0500 Subject: SV: Vicious Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043344.23782.708199563378503280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:15 AM 12/5/98 +0530, you wrote: >DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > >> To call Swami Vivekananda a racist taking some select quotations from >> his writings without reference to the circumstances prevailing at that >> time is bad and without doubt motivated analysis. > >You will surely remember that at that time I wrote that I was not >looking for such statements, nor did I wish to see them. I mentioned >them as a necessary corrective to a totally uncritical adulation of >Vivekananda which is based on a highly selective reading of his writings >-- selective in a different manner. What you wish to see or do not wish to see does not make any difference to me. I have a right to say what I want to say. >> We should not forget Swami Vivekananda was >> a great admirer of American people and a number of westerners and >> Americans in particular became his devotees. Some of them adopted >> India as their country and did selfless service to India. If Swamiji >> was a racist they would not have done that. > >Things are not so simple as that. We know of coloured people in South >Africa who faithfully went to the churches that advocated apartheid and >who quietly sat in the pews allotted to them. Apparently they wanted >that kind of religion. An eye-witness just recently told me how in a >public lecture Lakshman Joo of Kashmir told some female devotees of his >that they were ugly because they were Americans, and they were >delighted. > This has absolutely no relevence. In your eagerness to denigrate Swamiji you do not even notice the asbsurdity of your argument. In S.A. there was political & economic coercion. Swamiji did not and cannot coerce independent Americans. And finally I will give you one example. A person who is venerated by many as son of god said "But he answered, and said, it is not meet to take the chidren's bread, and to cast it to dogs." Matthew 15.26 The dogs in the above statement are Canaanites. Do you call Jesus racist. (I do not.) Do you call him a child of his times and not ahead of his times. ( I do not.) regards, sarma. From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sat Dec 5 17:38:18 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 12:38:18 -0500 Subject: Details of my book on RSS and BJP In-Reply-To: <366306D9.27E9E382@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227043366.23782.13488500138115410975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends and respected scholars: A few Indology listmembers asked me for this information. Here is the details of my book on RSS and BJP. I am posting this information here because I make NO PROFIT on it, therefore, I believe, it passes the ethical standards of posting in usenets and mailing lists. Some of you may know that I was in RSS, BJP (Jana Sangh), and Vidyarthi Parishad for more than fifteen years of my life. Yes, this life. If you want to get an overview of the book, please look up the proXsa (www.foil.org) website. I would much appreciate if you let friends know about the book on RSS and BJP. I heard that Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer is writing a review in his journal. Dr. Partha Chatterjee is also reading it. I will try to post their comments when I get them. If you/they want to get a copy of the book, please send me an email to partha at capital.net The price is $15; please add $5 for mailing. Thanks. Partha p.s. -- If you school or organization wants a copy, please write me or my publisher. Publisher's address is: S. Balwant, Ajanta Books International, 1-U.B., Jawahar Nagar, Delhi 110007, India. ______ Partha Banerjee. 1998. In the Belly of the Beast: The Hindu Supremacist RSS and BJP of India -- An Insider's Story. Ajanta Books International, Delhi. 165 pages. ISBN 81-202-0504-2. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 5 12:43:21 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 12:43:21 +0000 Subject: [ADMINISTRATION] "Aryan and Non-Aryan" and "Vicious Debate" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043352.23782.17106485803963697984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should like to thank the participants in this debate for their interest, but I think we should draw a firm line at this point and stop this discussion thread, since the exchanges have become somewhat heated, and it seems to me that the factual content of each of the participant's views has been adequately represented. Members can easily examine the various points of view in the debate using the INDOLOGY archive. This also gives access to previous occasions when the same debate has been conducted. I am hoping soon to be able to add a position paper from Ed Bryant to the INDOLOGY web site, and I hope that paper will place on record some of the main debating points on this subject, so that we are spared the need to rehearse them repeatedly on the discussion list. I really do mean to stop this discussion at this point. Any further postings on this topic will attract possible cancellation of your INDOLOGY membership. Thank you once again, --- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 5 21:06:46 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 13:06:46 -0800 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227043374.23782.10401525186880201989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<<<< There are many features about this sytem of philosophy which makes it appealing to moderns and that includes those in the West. While reatining its Idealist (spiritual) stance it maintains a joyous and life affirming position as opposled to Shankara's Advaita Vedanta. The prototypical experience it advocates is an aesthetic experience and thereby includes art objects, both sacred and secular, as objects of contemplation. >>>>>>> This is true of Southern 'Saivism as well. That's the reason why Chola masterpieces on 'Siva NaTarAja were created. Of course, the 'Saiva Saint, MaaNikkavAcakar ('Saint whose words are rubies', 9th century AD) chides Sankara's advaita (maayaa vAda) in his TiruvAcakam. <<<< The icon it celebrates most is the ardhanarisvara and regards Nataraja as a form of ardhanarisvara as well. The Nataraja sports a female earring (kundala) in his left ear and this is the only give away of its female aspect. >>>> In which text this is told: Na.taraaja is a form of ardhanArizvara? Is it a Kashmiri 'Saivaite text? Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 5 21:11:38 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 13:11:38 -0800 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227043375.23782.10566420091924413149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< While retaining its Idealist (spiritual) stance it maintains a joyous and life affirming position as opposed to Shankara's Advaita Vedanta. The prototypical experience it advocates is an aesthetic experience and thereby includes art objects, both sacred and secular, as objects of contemplation. >>> 'aesthetic experience' - This gives reason for the creation of DhvanyAloka. Centuries earlier, TolkAppiyar started the definitions: techniques of suggestion suutras of Tol. on uLLuRai and iRaicci. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 5 21:15:21 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 13:15:21 -0800 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227043377.23782.16785180944349317620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *The Nataraja sports a female earring (kundala) in his left ear * and this is the only give away of its female aspect. Tevaram (640 AD) canon starts with the words - "tOTu uTaiya ceviyan2" - He who sports kuNDala in his ear. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat Dec 5 18:31:54 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 13:31:54 -0500 Subject: Against Aryan Invasions In-Reply-To: <19981204203649.14299.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043347.23782.15879361644207262955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Bapa, You have questioned the relevance of my repost of Ved Acharya's article. Ved Acharya's views are NOW BEING TAUGHT IN INDIAN SCHOOLS. Yes, - "Homer and Shakespeare copied Sanskrit classics" is now taught in UP schools, and forms part of the syllabus - "Germans and Anglo-Saxons are emigrants from the Indus Valley." is also taught to kids. - "Out-of-Africa is wrong, the Aryans evolved in India" is also taught. - "Dravidian and Indo-European languages are derived from Sanskrit" are also taught. These were recently introduced into the syllabi of UP schools, and an attempt is being made to introduce these teachings into all Indian textbooks. If this hadn't been the case, I would never have posted the message. Yes, NEVER. This was the backdrop to my post, and it should be evident, since you are the only one complaining about its relevancy, that most list members `got the message' the first time around. Please note that I am not condemning or supporting this, I just brought these to the attention of list members. I however stand by the following statments: - " What Ved Acharya has explicitly stated, is implicit in many serious indological theories" - " What Ved Acharya has said, is believed in by the majority of Indo-Aryans." Please note that it is just a small step from saying that `All Indo-European languages are derived from Sanskrit' to `All IE languages are degraded from Sanskrit'. I did not say anything against these notions, I just stated them. If you do not accept them, please say so, rather than blaming me. Surely what is being taught in Indian schools is relevant to Indology, because the next generation of Indians are going to hold to these ideas. I only brought this to the attention of the list members, it is up to them to accept this or not. Ved Acharya differs only slightly from what serious indologists say, eg. while Indigenous Indologists claim that Aryans evolved from apes in India instead of Africa (implicit in their arguments), he holds that Brahma created the Aryans. He also points out that Out of Africa is against the Indigenous Aryan model; the Aryans in this case came from Africa and all other theories (incl. the usual Central Asian origin) are out the window. This is again relevant since there was some discussion on this list as to whether linguistics or archaeology was more relevant. The fact is, it may actually be genetics which finally decides the question. Some more replies are below: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Bapa Rao wrote: > The Indology list charter says that the list is for discussions among > practicing indology scholars, and others are welcome to read, but are > definitely discouraged from posting. You are implying that I have violated the charter for the indology list. First, let me clear myself: - I have not indulged in any personal attacks on this list. Many others have and one need only follow the thread `Vicious Debate' to see what kind of attacks are made. One can also read the replies to my posts to see how `vicious' people can be. I, for my part, have never referred to any body on this list, and have never attacked any person. - I have only posted articles of relevance to the discussions going on. The thread on Urdu was not started by me, as you can check by going to the archives. It arose out of a discussion of the number of speakers of that language, which necessarily bears on its origin. I also did not start the thread on Aryan Invasions. The debate was going on, so I posted something I thought relevant. From the replies, the list also thought them relevant, maybe unconventional. - The only theory I supported was the Ghaznavid Urdu model. Even here I never used any personal attacks, but only attacked the models. I never said anything in support or against Aryan Invasions. I just reposted somthing which was posted to usenet. I have seen less relevant posts on this list. > > Also, re Samir Abbas's crude revisionst theories about the linguistic > history of Urdu: They are not revisionist; they were the views held by Prof. E.C.Sachau, a highly distinguished scholar, almost 100 years ago. He was of the opinion that Urdu originated in the Ghaznavid camps. It has also gained a kind of quasi-acceptance, if you read the replies carefully. It goes against what is taught, but is logical. Being unconventional, people are unwilling to accept it in public. > I would certainly hope, for the sake of integrity of > the field of indology, that, if a graduate student of indology came up > with such a purported historical chart, his advisor would do the student > the kindness of telling him that "crappy" and "bogus" aren't > inappropriate terms to describe his thesis and his methodology. I invite you to come up with scientific evidence against what I have said about Urdu. I have given my references, and more importantly, the facts. I invite you to do the same. As I have said, what I have stated in unconventional. > > Samir Abbas, if you consider yourself a researcher, be kind enough to > provide the name of the institution you work for, so that I can take > appropriate precautions. Should I understand such `precautions' would involve some complaints to my `colleagues' and `instructors' ? You state that you think I have violated the Indology charter. So do you now imply that I should be removed from the list ? If so, please state so explicitly. > I read the list mainly to add to my > knowledge of indology, but there is also an important side-effect of > fostering meta-impressions of the state and quality of the field in > general. This is important, Indology is a vast field conering History, Archaeology, Anthropology (and thus Genetics, Molecular Biology etc.) and many other fields (Mathematics, etc.) which at first sight are not related to Indology, but every worker in the field must know. So postings should involve crisp to-the-point `facts' rather than long philiosophical discussions. Thus the indigenous Aryan theory has a bearing on evolution, genetics, etc. which was not evident from the other more factual and detailed discussions. > Talk of knocking down > strawmen and shooting fish in a barrel. Both amusing activities, no > doubt, but they are not research. > With that background, I would like to understand if the recent postings > of Samar Abbas are thought to represent serious professional > "Indological" opinions. I find it astonishing that a serious researcher > (assuming Abbas is one) would take unbaked opinions like those > purportedly of Ved Acharya ^^^^^^^^^^^ You can verify that Ved Acharya actually posted the message at the date I had given to the newsgroups by going to http://www.dejanews.com. (In case your statement may be misunderstood that they represent my opinions). You raise an objection that Ved Acharya is not an `Indologist'. That is true, but if he isn't, why are the books of many other religious leaders constantly quoted ? I don't want to give any names. People constantly quote from books that are published by people who have links to religious organizations. So what is wrong if I post an article posted by a religious person ? If my posting was not serious, then what about theirs ? The views aired by Ved Acharya are spread into millions of ears every day and are implicitly held ny many serious indologists. Moreover, he has raised serious questions which were not answered on this list before. > below and pass them off as a "good summary" > of a position on a controversial research issue. WHY VED ACHARYA IS A GOOD SUMMARY A good summary because he touches on anthropology, genetics, evolution etc. Many revisionists have left out large blanks in their works, such as what they feel about evolution, Out-of-Africa etc. Ved acharya has done that. He may sound mad, but he leaves no blanks. Samar From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Dec 5 12:53:37 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 13:53:37 +0100 Subject: SV: Against Aryan Invasions Message-ID: <161227043354.23782.2758659886871545599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > You have questioned the relevance of my repost of Ved Acharya's article. > Ved Acharya's views are NOW BEING TAUGHT IN INDIAN SCHOOLS. Yes, > - "Homer and Shakespeare copied Sanskrit classics" is now taught in UP > schools, and forms part of the syllabus > - "Germans and Anglo-Saxons are emigrants from the Indus Valley." is also > taught to kids. > - "Out-of-Africa is wrong, the Aryans evolved in India" is also taught. > - "Dravidian and Indo-European languages are derived from Sanskrit" are > also taught. > > These were recently introduced into the syllabi of UP schools, and an > attempt is being made to introduce these teachings into all Indian > textbooks. Dear Samar Abbas, As I take an interest in these things, I would be very grateful for any bibliographic data that you (or anybody else) have/has on the UP textbooks. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat Dec 5 18:56:23 1998 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 13:56:23 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19981204162942.00909400@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227043351.23782.9990349210192667919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Chris Beetle wrote: Thanks for the references, Chris. Krishna created the 4 castes would only imply that these were all human. Your references were good, but did not explicitly state that caste conversion was allowed (although they may be interpreted as implying a more equal relationship). So Bhishma explains, " The state of Brahmanhood is hard to be acquired by men of the other 3 classes, the Kshatriyas etc., for this Brahmanhood is the highest rank of all living creatures. It is only after passing through nemerous wombs, and being born again and again, that such a man, in some revolution of being, becomes a Brahman." -- [ Mahabharata Anushashana Parvan 1869-70 in Muir `Original Sanskrit Texts on the Origin of the People of India' I p.441 ] Indra explains to Matanga, who was of Mulatto race (mixed Brahman-Chandalla) and desired Brahman status: "He asks for Brahmanhood, but Indra tells him he must perish if he continues to make that request." [ Muir I.441 ] So when some liberals speak about `rise in caste' being allowed in scriptures, they should also add that it is only possible after several rebirths. There are liberal verses as you have quoted giving a more equal relation to the castes, allowing salvation to the outcaste races etc., but nowhere is it stated how a Chandella can become a Brahman (and if at all, these are only in texts that are followed by the minority heterodox sects; the Aryan Vaishnavite Orthodoxy does not approve of this). So you may find quotes in the Dravidian Shaivite texts, or in Bengal Shaktist texts to this regard, but not in Aryan Vaishnava ones (except the a few heterodoxies here too). I am not saying anything in favour or against the caste system; I am just saying that it is an integral feature of Indo-Aryan life, and finds abundant scriptural sanction. Whether it is `good or bad' is up to the sociologists. The much-denigrated caste system has some merits in the eyes of many persons. In fact, attacks on the caste system are speaking against a fundamental Aryan Vaishnavite institution. Samar > According to KRSNa in Bhagavad-gItA 4.13: > > cAtur-varNyaM mayA sRSTaM > guNa-karma-vibhAgaZaH > > The four castes (cAtur-varNyaM) were created by Me, according to > quality (guNa) and activity (karma). > > Race and birth are not mentioned. > > Furthermore, the sage, NArada, states in the BhAgavata PurANa 7.11.35: > > yasya yal lakSaNaM proktaM > puMso varNAbhivyanjakam > yad anyatrApi dRSyeta > tat tenaiva vinirdiZet > > "If one shows the symptoms of being a brAhmaNa, kSatriya, vaiZya or > ZUdra [varNa]. . . even if he has appeared in a different class [anyatra], > he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification." > > I hope these references shed some light on the discussion. > > Chris Beetle > From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Sat Dec 5 19:29:01 1998 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 14:29:01 -0500 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227043372.23782.6642136284562325879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists: This is in response to Prof. Ganesan's recent querry about Kashmir Shaivism. There are many features about this sytem of philosophy which makes it appealing to moderns and that includes those in the West. While reatining its Idealist (spiritual) stance it maintains a joyous and life affirming position as opposled to Shankara's Advaita Vedanta. The prototypical experience it advocates is an aesthetic experience and thereby includes art objects, both sacred and secular, as objects of contemplation. The icon it celebrates most is the ardhanarisvara and regards Nataraja as a form of ardhanarisvara as well. The Nataraja sports a female earring (kundala) in his left ear and this is the only give away of its female aspect. Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia 256, Elgin Street, Ottawa, ON Canada. K2P 1L9. Telephone 613-233-3103 Facsimile 613-829-2560 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Dec 5 11:57:02 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 14:57:02 +0300 Subject: SV: Epic DAIVAM Message-ID: <161227043388.23782.11635400907925121172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, as far as I can judge, with your "wild guess" about the genetic connection between epic *daiva* with the root div- "to gamble" (and in its IE depth, probably, "to divine"), you have surely fit the mark. But please don't look into Mayrhofer: you will not find this etymology there. It seems to have been offered for the first time by the Croatian indologist, Klara Gonc-Moacanin in her article "Znacenje kokanja u Mahabharate: Kokanje kao sudbina" ("The Significance of the Game of Dice in the Mbh: Dicing as Fate", in Croatian) - "Knjizevna smotra", 1984, n.3, pp. 60-64. Now reprinted in her book "sahRdaya. Knizevno putovanje sa srcem u Indiju. Zagreb, 1996, pp.37-46. I learned about it quite recently. In the course of my work on the large monograph on the concepts of Fate in the Mbh (which is based on the complete corpus of relevant material in the epic and is now close to being completed) I have come independently to the same conclusion. I mentioned this etymology in a paper summarizing my results which I read at the Modern SA Conference 1996 at Copenhagen, and was told then that this etymology had been suggested also by Madelaine Biardeau in some of her recent works (no exact reference). Shulman probably had this etymology in his mind when he formulated the title of his contribution to the Heesterman volume. But in spite of its most archaic original meaning, *daiva* never means "chance" in the Mbh (there is a special word for *chance* - yadRcchA). In the basic "classical heroic" (as I call it, in opposition to "archaic heroic") worldview layer in the Mbh *daiva* is always the blind, non-personal, unpredictable and usually cruel Fate which is higher than the gods, which is mystery to the gods, and so on. Therefore the best translation, in my opinion, would be the traditional one: Fate, Destiny. By the way, dhAtR (dhAtA) is not identical with BrahmA in the Mbh (with the exception of some very late contexts). dhAtA is the specific Epic god of Fate, its apportioner and supervisor. Here are some titles which may prove to be useful for the list-members interested in *daiva*: Bhattacharji S. Fatalism in Ancient India. Calcutta, 1995. Bharadwaj S. The Concept of "Daiva" in the Mahabharata. Delhi, 1992 Krishan Y. The Doctrine of Karman, Daiva and PuruSakAra. - ALB, vol. 48 (1984), pp. 119-132. Hara Minoru. Kodai indo-no ummeikan. [Tokyo], 1971 (large monograph on Fate in the Mbh; in Japanese; Skt references in Latin transcription). On Daiva and PuruSakAra Kar B. Indian Philosophy: An Analytical Study. Delhi, 1985. Rocher L. The Purana of Fate and Human Effort. - ABORI Diamond Jubilee Volume, Poona, 1978, pp. 271-279. Best wishes to all, Yaroslav Vassilkov ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From roheko at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Dec 5 13:57:29 1998 From: roheko at T-ONLINE.DE (Rolf Koch) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 14:57:29 +0100 Subject: devanagari ttf font win31/95/98 Message-ID: <161227043360.23782.12536986262082833370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please have a look into the paper: Udayana and VAsavadattA according to the Avazyaka tradition in INDOLOGICA TAURINENSIA vol. 21/22 (1995-96), pp. 188-92. This devanagari print is based on my devanagari-ttf font. If you like it, please contact me privately. It is free. Just copy the font into the directory windows\fonts and find out the keyboard layout by yourself. contact: roheko at t-online.de From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Dec 5 21:43:30 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 16:43:30 -0500 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism In-Reply-To: <19981205211521.23192.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043379.23782.5537170122310329817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The passage cited by Ganesan need not indicate a female earring. The kings and other folks in the society used to wear Kundalas, the ear-rings. Wearing an earring was a common thing for Pandits in Maharashtra until my grand-father's time. There are instances of kings honoring a Pandit with a gift of an earring ( = bhikbaaLii in Marathi). Male children have their ears pierced in Maharashtra to this day. My ears were pierced as a child and this came handy when I acted in zaakuntalam and maalavikaagnimitram as the king (during my college days in Pune), and I had to wear the Kundalas. I have a photograph of myself as Duzyanta to prove it. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > *The Nataraja sports a female earring (kundala) in his left ear > * and this is the only give away of its female aspect. > > Tevaram (640 AD) canon starts with the words - > "tOTu uTaiya ceviyan2" - He who sports kuNDala > in his ear. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From george9252 at MSN.COM Sat Dec 5 21:44:55 1998 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 16:44:55 -0500 Subject: [ADMINISTRATION] "Aryan and Non-Aryan" and "Vicious Debate" Message-ID: <161227043380.23782.2306413867540139525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik: I think you are right to stop this discussion now. It has gone on too long & has gotten out of hand. You refer to the Indology archive. How does one access that? -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 7:45 AM Subject: [ADMINISTRATION] "Aryan and Non-Aryan" and "Vicious Debate" >I should like to thank the participants in this debate for their interest, >but I think we should draw a firm line at this point and stop this >discussion thread, since the exchanges have become somewhat heated, and it >seems to me that the factual content of each of the participant's views >has been adequately represented. > >Members can easily examine the various points of view in the debate using >the INDOLOGY archive. This also gives access to previous occasions when >the same debate has been conducted. > >I am hoping soon to be able to add a position paper from Ed Bryant to the >INDOLOGY web site, and I hope that paper will place on record some of the >main debating points on this subject, so that we are spared the need to >rehearse them repeatedly on the discussion list. > >I really do mean to stop this discussion at this point. Any further >postings on this topic will attract possible cancellation of your INDOLOGY >membership. > >Thank you once again, > >--- >Dominik Wujastyk >http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ > From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Dec 5 17:35:10 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 18:35:10 +0100 Subject: On a bit of Internet satire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043370.23782.17865570926090025681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:46 5.12.98 -0500, Bijoy Misra wrote: >Ved Acharya's material is like communist textbooks in >Hungary. It's not worth examining the motive or >give it any credence. All lies have their natural deaths. >One should probably make political protests in UP >against fabrication and miseducation > >People in politics can be dogmatic and we can't do >much to change it. Creationist theories are taught >in some schools in US, and we just do not have the >energy to challenge it. It's local.. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Let's not be too serious about it. After several years spent in India (teaching in one of the central universities there), I believe I can recognize the Indian students' way of making fun of what they think are puffed up authorities - and of exploding what they think are pompous views. I suspect - no, I'll bet anything that - the message posted by Ved Acharya to Usenet (if it were posted there at all) is nothing else but a viciously puerile hoax. [Cf. the phrase "purportedly of Ved Acharya" used by Bapa Rao in his posting of 4.12.98.] And there is nothing better than Internet to challenge the currently hot issues by publicizing them in a form that reduces them ad absurdum. In order, one may suspect, to elicit from those in the positions of authority (political/religious) more studied and balanced opinions. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland P.S. Who is the real Veda Acharya? P.S.2 What is the place of satire and humor in Indian literary tradition? The oldest examples? A. K. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sat Dec 5 16:57:54 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 21:57:54 +0500 Subject: devanagari ttf font win31/95/98 In-Reply-To: <36693BC9.5F406DE1@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227043368.23782.15506124527856256856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be obliged if you can send me the font. Thanking you. regards, sarma. At 02:57 PM 12/5/98 +0100, you wrote: >Please have a look into the paper: Udayana and VAsavadattA according to >the Avazyaka tradition in INDOLOGICA TAURINENSIA vol. 21/22 (1995-96), >pp. 188-92. This devanagari print is based on my devanagari-ttf font. If >you like it, please contact me privately. It is free. Just copy the font >into the directory windows\fonts and find out the keyboard layout by >yourself. >contact: >roheko at t-online.de > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Dec 6 08:00:37 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 03:00:37 -0500 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227043382.23782.4144853914807872537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-12-05 16:44:48 EST, mmdesh at UMICH.EDU writes: << The passage cited by Ganesan need not indicate a female earring. The kings and other folks in the society used to wear Kundalas, the ear-rings. Wearing an earring was a common thing for Pandits in Maharashtra until my grand-father's time. There are instances of kings honoring a Pandit with a gift of an earring ( = bhikbaaLii in Marathi). Male children have their ears pierced in Maharashtra to this day. My ears were pierced as a child and this came handy when I acted in zaakuntalam and maalavikaagnimitram as the king (during my college days in Pune), and I had to wear the Kundalas. >> The passage cited by Ganesan indeed denotes a female ear-ring. The problem is in Ganesan's translation of Tamil "tOTu" as Sanskrit kuNTala. "tOTu" as an ear-ring specifically refers to female ear-ring. Tamil "kuzai" is indeed the equivalent of kuNTala which can be worn by male as well as females. The line in question tOTu uTaiya ceviyan2 viTai ERi Or tU veNmati cUTi (tEvAram 1.1.1.1) is the first line of the zaivite corpus tEvAram. Although, chronologically it was not the earliest zaivite poem, in the zaivite canon which begins with the child devotee campantar's songs, this is the first song sang by the devotee. According to the zaivite hagiography, the child sang this song in reply to his father who questioned him who gave him the milk he has drunk. (Earlier, while the father stayed under water in the bathing tank, the child devotee cried saying "O mother! O father!". Then ziva came with pArvati and pArvati filled a gold cup with her breast-milk and fed the child. The milk was indeed zivaJAna.) What is interesting is that the child devotee did not say that pArvati fed him the milk. But it was the one who wears the female ear-ring in one ear, ziva, who gave the milk. Thus the concept of ardhanArIzvara is subtly but unmistakably established in the first song of tEvAram. This significance of the first tEvAram song is well-known in Tamil zaivism. Thus Ganesan's statement has a sound basis if the correct meaning of tOTu is taken into account. Consider the following line also by the same devotee: tOTu akam Ay Or kAtum oru kAtu ilagku kuzai tAza vEza uriyan2 (tEvAram 2.87.3.3) translation: with the female ear-ring (tOTu) in one ear (kAtu) and hanging bright kuNTala (kuzai) from one/the other ear (kAtu), the one wearing the elephant skin... tOTu originally meant a leaf such as a palm leaf rolled and inserted in the hole in the ear-lobe. Of course, ear-piercing for all children is a common practice in Tamilnadu even today. Palani, one of the six sacred places of murukan2, is well-known for shaving of the head and ear-piercing. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Dec 6 08:07:15 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 03:07:15 -0500 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227043383.23782.6289319960688462740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A correction to my earlier message. I should have shown the translation of Tamil kuzai as Sanskrit kuNDala. My transliteration as kuNTala shows the influence of the Tamil transliteration convention. Sorry for the error. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 6 13:12:29 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 05:12:29 -0800 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227043389.23782.11416099178125626151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the confusion caused by my translation. In both sculpture and texts (eg., tEvAram), 'Siva is explicitly shown and told of wearing FEMALE ear rings (tOTu). Reagards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------ The passage cited by Ganesan need not indicate a female earring. The kings and other folks in the society used to wear Kundalas, the ear-rings. Wearing an earring was a common thing for Pandits in Maharashtra until my grand-father's time. There are instances of kings honoring a Pandit with a gift of an earring ( = bhikbaaLii in Marathi). Male children have their ears pierced in Maharashtra to this day. My ears were pierced as a child and this came handy when I acted in zaakuntalam and maalavikaagnimitram as the king (during my college days in Pune), and I had to wear the Kundalas. I have a photograph of myself as Duzyanta to prove it. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > *The Nataraja sports a female earring (kundala) in his left ear > * and this is the only give away of its female aspect. > > Tevaram (640 AD) canon starts with the words - > "tOTu uTaiya ceviyan2" - He who sports kuNDala > in his ear. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 6 13:22:54 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 05:22:54 -0800 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043882.23782.2017558529985026421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Nataraja wears a female earring in his left ear (kundala) while his *right ear, though pierced, is bare. One can explain this by child *like stories which say that his right earring fell off while dancing. * The truth of the matter is that Nataraja is an ardhanirshvara and *therefore must express his feminine aspect. Is this attested in Kashmir 'Saivaite texts? With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Sun Dec 6 10:49:25 1998 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 05:49:25 -0500 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043385.23782.5043342860498222258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists: Nataraja wears a female earring in his left ear (kundala) while his right ear, though pierced, is bare. One can explain this by child like stories which say that his right earring fell off while dancing. The truth of the matter is that Nataraja is an ardhanirshvara and therefore must express his feminine aspect. This is stylised by the kundala. Nataraja cannot be in a state of ananda (bliss) without a dynamic harmony of purusha and prakriti, Shiva and Parvati, male and female. This is the foundational doctrine of Kashmir Shaivism. The image of the ardhanarisvara is a visual paradigm of Kashmir Shaivism epistemology (see my Parvatidarpana, Motilal Banarasidass, 1997). So is the marriage of Shiva and Parvati Harsha V. Dehejia 256, Elgin Street, Ottawa, ON Canada. K2P 1L9. Telephone 613-233-3103 Facsimile 613-829-2560 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 6 17:07:08 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 09:07:08 -0800 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043884.23782.2536368834086703578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Nataraja wears a female earring in his left ear (kundala) while his right ear, though pierced, is bare. One can explain this by child like stories which say that his right earring fell off while dancing. The truth of the matter is that Nataraja is an ardhanirshvara and therefore must express his feminine aspect. This is stylised by the kundala. >>> Does the theme - 'NatarAja is an ardhanArizvara' figure anywhere in Kashmir Shaivaite texts? With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 6 22:11:26 1998 From: bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM (Bapa Rao) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 14:11:26 -0800 Subject: On a bit of Internet satire Message-ID: <161227043394.23782.8240256443833554323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >P.S. Who is the real Veda Acharya? I would guess that Veda Acharya is a made-up name. Regards, Bapa Rao ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 6 22:54:37 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 14:54:37 -0800 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043888.23782.5971590004835041049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Nataraja wears a female earring in his left ear (kundala) while his right ear, though pierced, is bare. One can explain this by child like stories which say that his right earring fell off while dancing. The truth of the matter is that Nataraja is an ardhanirshvara and therefore must express his feminine aspect. This is stylised by the kundala. >>> Is this attested in any Kashmiri Shaivaite text that the Dancing 'Siva is a form of ArdhanAri? (I was informed that the term, Nataraja does not occur pre-19th century Kashmiri texts.) With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Dec 6 16:04:46 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 21:04:46 +0500 Subject: Sanskrita font Message-ID: <161227043407.23782.18175097369985373789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The font developed by Rolf Koch is a very nice looking font and appears to follow phonetic principles. regards, sarma. <> From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 6 16:34:54 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 22:04:54 +0530 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism In-Reply-To: <199812060939.PAA22247@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043391.23782.1211057404467835257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > In Tantraloka, Abhinavagupta talks of ideas getting into > Kashmir from kumarikaadviipa (Tamil South). > > Are there any references on the relations, commonalities, > contrasts between Kashmir and Southern 'Saivisms? Of course there were contacts between ;Saivas all over South Asia. I have read of a Virasaiva ;siva;sara.na of the 12th century who is said to have migrated southward from Kashmir and to have composed vacanas in Kannada. At the same time, the Virasaivas held the 63 ;Saiva saints of the Tamil region in high esteem. Some people have written in Kannada on similarities between Kashmir Saivism and Virasaivism. RZ From garzilli at SHORE.NET Sun Dec 6 21:58:19 1998 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 22:58:19 +0100 Subject: JSAWS vol.4, no. 1 (Dec. 6, 1998) Message-ID: <161227043392.23782.11576744397151336877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am glad to inform you that the *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* has just been distributed to our members via email. It will be published on our WWW page http://www.asiatica.org/ Bagchee Associates, a leading Indological book dealer (http://www.bagchee.com) supports this publication. You will be able to read the JSAWS by becoming a member of the journal (Life membership: US$ 35). http://www.asiatica.org TABLE OF CONTENTS NOTE FROM THE EDITOR: The *Asiatica Association * PAPER: * The Peasant Women's Movement in the Philippines: Alternative Perspectives on Development* by Ligaya Lindio-McGovern PAPER REVIEW: *Pretty Plant in Arid Soil: Misogyny and Genteel Morality in Satyajit Ray's Charulata *, by Narasingha P. Sil. NEW TITLES: *Frauenforschung International. Dokumentation/Bibliographie. Teil 2/3: Asien, Ozeanien, Australien *, by Margarete Maurer and Barbara Smetschka, Wienna: Verein fuer Interdisziplinaere Forschung und Praxis/ Rosa-Luxenburg-Institut, 1997. Pp. LIX+ 860. ISBN 3-901229-04-3. Price DM 128. (E.G.) *The Calf Became an Orphan. A Study in Contemporary Kannada Fiction *, by Robert J. Zydenbos, 1996 (Institut Francais de Pondichery & Ecole Francaise d'Extreme Orient). Pp. XVII + 301. ISSN 0073-8352 (E. G.) COPYRIGHT NOTICE ************************************************* Abstract of the paper: * The Peasant Women's Movement in the Philippines: Alternative Perspectives on Development* by Ligaya Lindio-McGovern This paper examines the alternative views on development that the peasant women's movement in the Philippines is forging. The main focus is on AMIHAN, the National Federation of Peasant Women in the Philippines, and one of its local chapters in Mindoro, KAMMI (Kababaihang Magbubukid ng Mindoro, translated as Peasant Women of Mindoro).[1] It is appropriate to focus on AMIHAN for two reasons: (1) it is the national non-governmental organization that leads the peasant women's movement in the Philippines, and (2) it advocates for development policies that offer alternatives to what are currently legitimized by the Philippine government. Lindio-McGovern gathered the data presented in this paper during her fieldwork in the Philippines in the Summers of 1989 and 1996. She interviewed a total of 39 Filipino peasant women: 35 were members of KAMMI and four were national leaders of AMIHAN. She also participated in, observed, and took down field notes about their activities, as well as gathered and content analyzed their organizational documents. To have a direct experience of the village life of the peasant women of KAMMI, she stayed in Mindoro and visited the villages of some of the peasant women. She did most of the interviews and observations during the 1989 fieldwork. In 1996 she went back to the Philippines in order to observe first hand new developments there. AMIHAN was formally launched in 1986 to organize peasant women on the national level and to advocate for agrarian reforms that will respond to the particular situation of peasant women. In this paper, the Author will focus on the following themes in AMIHAN's views on development: a) peasant women and land reform, b) peasant women, usury and control of traders, c) peasant women, foreign debt, the International Monetary Fund, and GATT (General Agreement on Tariff and Trade), and d) empowerment not integration into an exploitative nature of Philippine development.[2] ********************************************************************** Have a nice reading! -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Mon Dec 7 04:54:00 1998 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 05:54:00 +0100 Subject: On a bit of Internet satire Message-ID: <161227043396.23782.7855590028284816296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is natural saying that is made-up, but there is nothing wrong in saying. Just like, guru is not a guru if he is not teaching spiritual knowledge, so acarya is acarya if he is not teaching us Veda. "You should go to a guru who has complete knowledge from the sruti. Sruti means Vedas. Acarya am purusah veda. Veda means you have to approach acarya. He knows everything. Unless he is not followers of the Vedas, sruti, he's a rascal. What is the use of going there? What you'll get by approaching a so-called rascal guru? One who does not know sruti. Therefore Srila Rupa Gosvami has forbidden. Sanatana Gosvami has forbidden. Avaisnava puto hari kathamrtam sravanam na kartavyam. Because sravanam, sruti...To go to guru means to hear from him, to inquire from him. (c) 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Yours, Yashoda devi dasi Bapa Rao wrote: > >P.S. Who is the real Veda Acharya? > > I would guess that Veda Acharya is a made-up name. > > Regards, > > Bapa Rao > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 7 17:01:47 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 09:01:47 -0800 Subject: pANini's inspiration and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227043402.23782.15048210693254811304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You must mean R. Nagasamy, I guess. Kind regards, N. Ganesan --------------- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: R Nagarajan while discussing Appar's poetry says that both dakshiNAmUrti and vINAdhara dakshiNAmUrti are generic puranic references. Refer Siva Bhakti by R Nagarajan, Navrang Publ., New Delhi, 1989. (p 39). The purana that is refered here is LingapurANa. Hope this helps. Thanks and Warm Regards. PS: BTW, there is a similar reference to dakshinamurti in the Divyaprabandham too: neRivAcal tAnEyAyninRanai aindu poRivAcal pOrkkadavam cArtti aRivAnAm AlamaranIzal aRam nAlvarkkanRuraitta Alamamarkandattaran. (poy. div. 2085) It is remarkable as it is one of the few benign references to Siva in the entire Vaishnava canon ;-))) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 7 15:55:33 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 10:55:33 -0500 Subject: Urdu and Hindsutani Message-ID: <161227043398.23782.13762696028256721050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote : I apologize for his language. It is to be hoped that he phases out his use of such vulgarities in his postings. He is also advised to use scientific methods and arguments. It is very good that Mr. Abbas hopes to maintain his "civility" but it's clearly "scholars" like him who would beat the drum of Brahminical fanatisicm whilst ignoring the misdeed of his ancestral liberators. I think he well knows that his view is a minority view in India (which ofcourse does not make it wrong automatically). What you are seeking to do is to say that Sanskrit did not exist before 500 B.C. What are you scientific methods anyway ? Most indologists agree in calling the few centuries preceding the Delhi Sultanate as a `dark age'. This was after the fall of the mighty empries of the Mauryas and Guptas, after the Huns had invaded India. Many features of post-Gupta society are considered barbaric by many. Thus they were in a sense liberators. Who are these Indologists pray say ? I would definitely like to know the opinion of these experts who share the view that Bharat was in a disarray and so the invaders from West Asia came and liberated us. In so doing, so what if we had to pay the price of getting our temples broken and our women raped and Hindu ritualism almost vanish from everyday social life ? Please tell me who these experts are. And who did these Muslim invaders liberate. Maybe made India a home for the Turks and the Afghans and the Bukharis. Next label that you are going to force me to wear is that of a Hindu fundamentalist. Well, I would not give you that pleasure and wear it even as I write this mail. You can see Samar that I have taken you advice very well about following scientific methods. And maybe, just to confirm your doubts about me, I am a Brahmin too. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 7 19:23:04 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 11:23:04 -0800 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043403.23782.11337738487997755491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Nataraja wears a female earring in his left ear (kundala) while his right ear, though pierced, is bare. One can explain this by child like stories which say that his right earring fell off while dancing. The truth of the matter is that Nataraja is an ardhanirshvara and therefore must express his feminine aspect. This is stylised by the kundala. >>> Is something like "Dancing 'Siva is a form ArdhanAri" attested anywhere in Kashmiri 'Saivaite texts? Want to know because the term, "NaTarAja" does not appear in Kashmir 'Saivism texts before 19th century. So if at all, the above statement appears in a 'Saivaite text decidedly from a Northern school of 'Saivism, what would Shiva, the dancer be called? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 7 19:32:40 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 11:32:40 -0800 Subject: zIrSa = gozIrSa? Message-ID: <161227043405.23782.10424341654370338207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P. L. Vaidya, mahAyAna sUtra saMgraha. Buddhist Sanskrit texts Nr. 17, 267.22; 295.7, 305.9 refers to KaaraNDavyUha. A rhetorical question is asked in those instances: It is ever possible to count the leaves in a forest of zIrSa trees, but it's impossible to reckon Avalokitezvara's virtues. gozIrSa is sandalwood in many texts. Please note that Avalokita's residence is Potalaka and many sources place it in Malaya range known for candana trees in ancient texts. Then, is zIrSa a contraction of gozIrSa in kaaraNDavyUha? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 7 17:00:55 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 12:00:55 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-Aryan Message-ID: <161227043400.23782.17624373343240183980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote on Dec 04 : There is no reason to suppose that caste was based on profession at any time in ancient India. Caste arose whenever members of one race conquered members of a different race. The different castes in India can still be distinguished as to when they entered India. Thus, Ahirs are Avars, Thakurs are Tokharians, Jats are Getae and the Rajputs are all Indo-Scyth. Each now forms a separate caste. Moreover, the Sudras are the Negroid inhaitants of India who were subjected to the lowest caste. A caste systems have arisen in the southern US, etc. I have given more replies below: For your information, Thakurs are Rajputs. I confess that I have no idea of who the Avars, Tokharians and the Indo-Scyth people are. On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > N. Ganesan wrote : > > Social reformers in the South have been calling for reforms within > Hinduism. That is, Priesthood and Sankaracharyaship should become available > for any Hindu, not for a particular group determined just by birth. For > Hinduism to become modern, the only qualifications to be a priest or a > Sankaracharya, must be 1) be a Hindu Hindu is taken as a synonym for Aryan nowadays. Really. I thought you mentioned in one of your emails that Hindu is a Persian-Arabic word. How ,then, can it be Arya since all the Muslim invaders were considered Mlechhas and hence not Aryan ? On what basis do you make the statement that Hindu and Aryan are synonymous words ? > and 2) be proficient in Samskrit and > few more Indian languages. But the texts of the Dravidian Shaivite religion are in Dravidian languages. What you suggest goes against the sacred Aryan Hindu scriptures, which forbid a non-Aryan from doing these things. I challenge you to produce anything from the Vedas that says anything about Sudra not being allowed to read this scripture or that. As a matter of fact, Rishi Vashishta was born out of marriage, Sage Narada, was born to a maidservant out of wedlock, Rishi Valmiki was a robber and there are various instances. Even if these people never existed, their very lineage points to the fact that there was no such thing as knowledge to the "Brahmins" alone i.e. there is nothing in the Vedas that prevents a Sudra from reading them and then a Brahmin sitting at the feet of this Sudra and gaining knowledge. In fact, and you have criticized Vaishanavism as bigoted Arayan discrimination, was spread in no uncertain means by Ramanujacharya, one of whose earliest teachers/guide was a Sudra preist named Kanchipurna. He lived in or around Kancheepuram. It was Ramanuja who created the custom in Sourthern India of allowing Sudras into temples wherein they had been hitherto been forbidden from attending. > > > I could not agree more. In fact, one should take process a step further and > base the interpretation of caste purely as our scriptures define them, i.e. > not by birth but intellectual/physical inclinations. Show me one person who has changed his caste. The fact is, it is racial in basis. Why do you make this so simple for me. If you only bother to read history, you will realise that Adi Shankaracharya converted whole tribes of Baluchis into Rajputs. He converted a lot of Rajputs into Sannyasins which was not so prevalent in his time when only Brahmins were undertaking the quest of Jnana through Sannyas. These Rajputs carried Trishuls and other weapons woth them even though they were Sannyasis. These customs are visible even today and the only reason for carrying a trident (Trishul) is not just that one is a Saivite. > There is no need for > people like Mulayam Singh Yadav to be considered a backward caste just as a > so-called forward caste can't be one just by being born into one of the > Traivarnikas. The scriptures state that only Aryans can belong to the three varnas or colours. This was meant to prevent racial mixing, and is advocated by eugenicists today. Which scriptures state that "Aryans" can belong to the three top Varnas. If you have read any of the Hindu scriptures, you will realise that the Hindu society was into divided into Varna, Jati and Kula. But nowhere have any of the Vedic scriptures mentioned birth. It is only later on in the Puranas that we see some of the texts from Vedas being contradicted. Whereas in the Vedas it was said that one should attain knowledge from anyone who holds it, the Puranas have differentiated this and laid down which parts of the Vedas are for which Yuga i.e. Satya, Dwapar, Treta and Kali. It is also said in the Puranas that so and so lived for thousands of years when the Vedas clearly declare that man lives for 100 years. It is taken for granted that Vedas are the authority and anything that contradicts them later on should be rejected. So take your eugenicists and stuff them. > A Brahmin engaged in trade is not a Brahmin anymore and > should not consider himself as such. But he is still an Arya. A negroid Sudra obviously cannot become and Aryan, whether in India or in the US South. Actually, there are no more Aryans(noble men) left in India as we have been under the rule of Mlecchhas for a very long time. There is an instance of a Hindu Brahmin priest who left Bharat with Alexander and after he realized that the food he was consuming had been prepared in an impure way by a Mlecchha, he immolated himself. Then we have the example of Kumarila Bhatta who studied the Buddhist scriptures from a Buddhist guru, with an eye to propound his philosophy of Purva Mimamsa and after he had learnt everything about them, he used his own counter arguments to defeat the Buddhist scholars in a debate. After that, to expiate for his sin of Gurudroha (treachery against one's own Guru), he immolated himself in a fire of Tusha. By being under the rule of Mlechhas for so long, we are no more Arya. So technically and scripturally, a person is not an Arya throughout his/her life but that fact is determined by his/her actions. > Of course, this process will take > decades if not centuries but it is an ideal well chosen and based on our > own scriptures. Then you are talking about some `new' religion. It is not Aryan Vaishnava Orthodoxy, which is as strong as ever. As a matter of fact, India has not one but many religions. But unlike Islamic monotheism, a person can be pursuant of Advaita school of philosophy and yet be worshipping Lord Siva or Lord Visnu. There have been umpteen instances wherein scholars of Advaita school have been worshippers of Vishnu. And when you call it Vaishnava Orthodoxy, I am not sure what you mean because there are millions of people who are Vaishnava, Saiva and Shaktas at the same time. And then there are people who are Vaishanava alone and Shaktas alone. Each of these have their own ways and rituals. SO which one are you exactly talking about because I am not sure I am aware of the fact that Vaishanava "Orthodoxy" has been imposed on any section of Indian society. And there is no such thing as Aryan Vaishnavism. If there is anything that you want to call Arya, it is Vedanta and Vedanta alone, something that is Upanishadic. All the sects and religions that arose in Bharat have based their birth on some interpretation of these Upanishads. So are you calling them Orthodox. Yes, then that they are indeed - Orthodox and The most sublime literature that ever graced mankind. > > Ashish > Samar And might I add at this point. Are you aware of an Upanishad called Allopanishad ? It was written at the time of Akbar and at his request. It talks of Prophet Mohammed as Rajasulla. Even though it is not considered amongst the 108 Orthodox Upanishads, it is still an Upanishad. And many more can be written as Upanishad merely means Come near, Sit and Listen. So one might advise you to get your facts in order and not throw your mental garbage out here. Ashish From bprasad at NETCOM.COM Tue Dec 8 03:04:46 1998 From: bprasad at NETCOM.COM (Bal Prasad) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 19:04:46 -0800 Subject: Urdu and Hindustani In-Reply-To: <199812072359.PAA01270@mail3.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227043409.23782.17880507273631108145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists, I apologise for responding again to his blinkered statements, but this will hopefully be the last one. -- Samar Abbas enscribed thusly -- > Mahmud of Ghazni may have conquered, but the standard of living in India > improved due to economic development (this is my opinion, and not accepted This is like saying that the standard of living of the plantation owners in the southern US 'improved' after the introduction of slavery. By your yardstick, the southern African economy too 'improved' after apartheid was introduced. Or is your perceived 'economic development' (which is moot) the only yardstick for improvement? Ever bothered to consider the viewpoint of the victims? -Prasad From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 8 05:35:05 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 00:35:05 -0500 Subject: A Nepalese Manuscript and Potalaka Message-ID: <161227043411.23782.6215188695124898576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the book "Expansion of Indo-Aryan Culture During Pallava Rule" (published January 1965) B. Ch. Chhabra presents his thesis about the pivotal role played by the Pallava influence in South-East Asia. This is based on his doctoral work at the State University of Leyden, Holland in 1934. In this he says, "A Nepalese manuscript, containing miniature paintings of famous Buddhist sanctuaries and deities worshipped in India and abroad, mentions temples raised to Avalokitezvara in KaTAha and zrivijayapura. Though the manuscript is much later, the sanctuaries depicted in the miniatures must have existed in the 6th and 7th centuries. The same manuscript mentions a sanctuary at the mount Potalaka, which is mentioned by Hieun Tsiang, too. Since this Chinese pilgrim travelled in India in the first half of the 7th century, it shows that the Buddhist shrines mentioned in the Nepalese manuscript may have been in existence a considerable time anterior to the date of the manuscript in question. What is characteristic of this colonial Brahmanism and Buddhism is that they present a blending which is unknown in India. ziva and Buddha are often represented as identical. maJjuzrI, for example, in the Kelurak inscription is praised in these terms: ayaM sa vajradhRk zrI-mAn brahmA viSNur mahezvaraH. Moreover, avalokitezvara seems to occupy the same place in Buddhism as agastyain Brahmanism. The latter appears as an attendant to ziva in the same manner as avalokitezvara to Zakyamuni. Then again they are worshipped separately as saviours of the world..." (p.80-1) Apparently, the Nepalese manuscript is cited by A. Foucher in Etude sur l'iconogr. Bouddhique, Paris, 1900. It will be interesting to find out what that Nepalese mansucript says about Potalaka. Regards S. Palaniappan From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 8 11:00:29 1998 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 03:00:29 -0800 Subject: pANini's inspiration and dakSiNAmurti In-Reply-To: <19981204180326.2278.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227043426.23782.15844645503195600871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > PS: BTW, there is a similar reference to dakshinamurti in the > Divyaprabandham too: > > neRivAcal tAnEyAyninRanai aindu > poRivAcal pOrkkadavam cArtti aRivAnAm > AlamaranIzal aRam nAlvarkkanRuraitta > Alamamarkandattaran. (poy. div. 2085) > > It is remarkable as it is one of the few benign references to Siva in > the entire Vaishnava canon ;-))) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This may be a joke, but I feel obliged to reply. In general, the Divya Prabandham has very few abusive references to Siva. [The poetry of Tondaradippodi and Tirumangai Alvar do contain several abusive references to Buddhists and Jains]. I do not recall a single one off the top of my head, unless a description of Siva as "the naked Lord" (nakkapirAn) counts. While the Alvars clearly place Vishnu at the top of the heap, Siva is pictured generally as a major deity who is respected but not worshipped. When taken out of context, certain statements from the first three Alvars and Nammalvar even tend toward identifying Siva and Vishnu as one. It is a myth that the Alvars regularly abuse Siva. Mani From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Tue Dec 8 09:35:54 1998 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 04:35:54 -0500 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043413.23782.14216136256483328812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologolists: I will find a reference from Abhinavagupta where the ardhanari is the paradigm of ultimate and perfect knowledge. Harsha V. Dehejia From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 8 13:56:43 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 05:56:43 -0800 Subject: A Nepalese Manuscript and Potalaka Message-ID: <161227043415.23782.8597281222135097149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are interesting and important Potalaka material in Buddhist tradition all around. 1) In Tibet: Po ta la'i lam yig, contained in the bsTan'gyur, was written by Spyan ras gzigs dban p'yug, supposed to be Avalokitezvara himself. (G. Tucci, 1958, Minor Buddhist texts, Part 2, Rome) This travel account to Potala must be studied. Then, TArAnAtha (b. 1575) narrates the travel of 'Saantivarman to Potala. After all this, of course, Potala palace, Dalai Lama's home, is built. 2) M.-T. de Mallmann, Introduction a l'etude d'Avalokitezvara, 1967 shows a Pala era Avalokitezvara. First published by Stella Kramrisch. (You know her at Penn.). This image contains inscription: zrI potalake lokanAtha. It is in Indian museum, Calcutta. This avalokita is seated in a mountain grotto, just as GaNDavyUha and Xuanzang describe Potalaka in the Malaya mountain. Flora and fauna in a rain forest mountain. 3) Sung dynasty Guanyins in wood, bronze, etc., also follow the same pattern. Just like GaNDavyUha and Xuanzang describe Potalaka in the Malaya mountain. There are amazing parallels between Avalokitezvara found in NakapaTTinam, Tamil Parvati bronzes, Sri Lankan Avalokitezvaras and Sung dynasty Guanyins. All seated in rAjalIlAsana posture. What is unique in Sung wooden sculptures is that Guanyin is placed in a grotto of a mount (Potalaka) full of vegetation and wildlife. More later, N. Ganesan ----------------------------------------------------------- S. Palaniappan writes: In the book "Expansion of Indo-Aryan Culture During Pallava Rule" (published January 1965) B. Ch. Chhabra presents his thesis about the pivotal role played by the Pallava influence in South-East Asia. This is based on his doctoral work at the State University of Leyden, Holland in 1934. In this he says, "A Nepalese manuscript, containing miniature paintings of famous Buddhist sanctuaries and deities worshipped in India and abroad, mentions temples raised to Avalokitezvara in KaTAha and zrivijayapura. Though the manuscript is much later, the sanctuaries depicted in the miniatures must have existed in the 6th and 7th centuries. The same manuscript mentions a sanctuary at the mount Potalaka, which is mentioned by Hieun Tsiang, too. Since this Chinese pilgrim travelled in India in the first half of the 7th century, it shows that the Buddhist shrines mentioned in the Nepalese manuscript may have been in existence a considerable time anterior to the date of the manuscript in question. What is characteristic of this colonial Brahmanism and Buddhism is that they present a blending which is unknown in India. ziva and Buddha are often represented as identical. maJjuzrI, for example, in the Kelurak inscription is praised in these terms: ayaM sa vajradhRk zrI-mAn brahmA viSNur mahezvaraH. Moreover, avalokitezvara seems to occupy the same place in Buddhism as agastyain Brahmanism. The latter appears as an attendant to ziva in the same manner as avalokitezvara to Zakyamuni. Then again they are worshipped separately as saviours of the world..." (p.80-1) Apparently, the Nepalese manuscript is cited by A. Foucher in Etude sur l'iconogr. Bouddhique, Paris, 1900. It will be interesting to find out what that Nepalese mansucript says about Potalaka. Regards S. Palaniappan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 8 16:41:18 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 08:41:18 -0800 Subject: Chin-sheng (688-740 AD), T'ang dynasty Message-ID: <161227043416.23782.3157736293392060063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can a member please check: Daiyu Goto, Kanzeon Bosatsu no kenkyu, Tokyo: Sankibo Busshorin, 1976, 400 p., (OCLC number: 39173167) Edition: Shutei Zoho Daiyu Goto's book on Avalokitesvara was first published in 1928. Later reprinted in 1958 and 1970 and 1976. >"Chin-sheng (ChishO, 688-740 AD) of T'ang dynasty >has also mentioned about Malaya country is near >the Potalaka mountain which is the place of >Avalokitezvara." What does Daiyu Goto say about Chin-sheng's writing on Potalaka? Is it in Malaya country? Please help me if you know Japanese. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Tue Dec 8 19:00:38 1998 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 11:00:38 -0800 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043419.23782.15631811417542097915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As regards Nataraja's earring(s), here is what Kamil Zvelebil says in his recent monograph "Ananda tANDava of S'iva-sadAnrttamUrti" : "The difference of the two earrings is of course of utmost iconographic-iconologic importance: the fact that one earring is the patrakuNDala, i.e. the twisted golden palm leaf in the left ear-lobe as worn by village belles, whereas the other earring is the makarakuNDala, i.e. the man's ornamental earring in the shape of a crocodile, this fact symbolizes the unity of the male and the female, the dual nature of the Lord, the ardhanArIs'vara concept." In the footnotes to patrakuNDala, he says "other name: karNapatra, Ta. Olia". In the next footnote, he says "Sometimes, the right earlobe of naTarAja remains free of ornament." Harsha V. Dehejia wrote: > Nataraja wears a female earring in his left ear (kundala) while his > right ear, though pierced, is bare. One can explain this by child like > stories which say that his right earring fell off while dancing. The > truth of the matter is that Nataraja is an ardhanirshvara and > therefore must express his feminine aspect. This is stylised by the > kundala. Nataraja cannot be in a state of ananda (bliss) without a > dynamic harmony of purusha and prakriti, Shiva and Parvati, male and > female. This is the foundational doctrine of Kashmir Shaivism. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Dec 8 22:12:14 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 12:12:14 -1000 Subject: Family jewels In-Reply-To: <19981208214022.9062.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043428.23782.2180778441950145305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Various people wrote: > [... Female earrings ...] Is it OK to keep my studs in the same box as my wife's female earrings? Yours prudishly, Raja. PS: Could I be held liable for brooch of promise? From pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Dec 8 21:26:25 1998 From: pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (P. Cooper) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 13:26:25 -0800 Subject: Himachal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043421.23782.16407993064765056666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello All, I'm trying to track down the Sanskrit source for the following quote: "There is no mountain like Himachal, for in it are Kailas and Manasarovar. As the dew is dried up by the morning sun, so are the sins of mankind dried up at the sight of Himachal." E.T. Atkinson in his Himalayan Gazetteer refers to the above as coming from the Manasa Khanda (purportedly part of the Skanda Purana), and C.A. Sherring in Western Tibet and the Indian Borderland says that it's from the Ramayana. If anyuone could help clear this up for me, I'd be very grateful. More specific references to where in either text this quote can be found would especially be appreciated. Thanks, Paul Cooper From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 8 21:40:21 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 13:40:21 -0800 Subject: Nataraja's Earring Message-ID: <161227043423.23782.1547301348222057645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Zvelebil, the pioneer Dravidianist, writes the Tamil term, "Olai". "Olai" and "tOTu" are Tamil terms for leaf, the Samskrit `patra`. Female earrings were initially made by rolling plant leaves. Hence, female earrings are called "Olai" or "tOTu" in Tamil. Tevaram, the Saivaite collection of thousands of songs written in 7th century AD starts by calling 'Siva as He who wears female earrings. Pallava, Pandya and Chola NaTarAjas sport "Olai" or "tOTu" in His left ear all the time. Regards, N. Ganesan In shopping malls, American youth, like NaTarAja, wear female earring in left ears. Is it due to an invasion of Tamils/Dravidians or a material borrowing or a mere coincidence ?? :-) Mr. S. Pichumani quotes: ----------------------------- As regards Nataraja's earring(s), here is what Kamil Zvelebil says in his recent monograph "Ananda tANDava of S'iva-sadAnrttamUrti" : "The difference of the two earrings is of course of utmost iconographic-iconologic importance: the fact that one earring is the patrakuNDala, i.e. the twisted golden palm leaf in the left ear-lobe as worn by village belles, whereas the other earring is the makarakuNDala, i.e. the man's ornamental earring in the shape of a crocodile, this fact symbolizes the unity of the male and the female, the dual nature of the Lord, the ardhanArIs'vara concept." In the footnotes to patrakuNDala, he says "other name: karNapatra, Ta. Olia". In the next footnote, he says "Sometimes, the right earlobe of naTarAja remains free of ornament." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 9 04:03:06 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 20:03:06 -0800 Subject: Where was PANini inspired? (Part I) Message-ID: <161227043435.23782.10110039748079845069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Part I: Where does 'Siva or Avalokitezvara inspire? ------------------------------------------------------ Reading M. Deshpande, Who Inspired Panini? Reconstructing the Hindu and Buddhist Counter-Claims, Journal of the American Oriental Society, 117.3 (1997), pp. 444-465. p. 444: "In the surviving tradition of PANinian grammar, there is a pervasive belief that the founding grammarian PANini was inspired by the divinity 'Siva to formulate his grammar". The excellent article tries to show that this belief started in Northwest India. p. 454-455 refers to S. Beal, Buddhist Record of the Western world, 1884: 114-116:: Hsuan Tsang talking about 'SalAtura, Paninini's hometown and his inspiration coming from 'Siva. p. 455 refers to S. Beal, 1884: 117-118 Hsuan Tsang tells the story he heard about a child in 'SalAtura and an arhat asserting to the child's guru that "this little boy whom you are instructing was that very (PANini) RSi. As he devoted his vigorous mind to investigate worldly literature, he only produced heretical literature ...and he has run through the cycles of continued birth ..." Later the child converts to Buddhism. Please note the reincarnation of PANini as a child after several cycles of birth. This child converts to Buddhist faith. Nowhere does Hsuan Tsang say that PANini was inspired by Avalokitevara. p. 457 refers to Taranatha's history of Buddhism, p. 202ff. "In the DhAnyakaTaka caitya there, he [=CandragomI] worshipped TArA and Arya Avalokitezvara and built a hundred temples for each of them. He went to the Potala hill and is still living there without renouncing his mortal body". p. 457 continues: "If this Potala is the same as the Potalaka mountain referred to by Hsuan tsang [in the Northwest?], then Candragomin also gets associated with a prominent shrine of Avalokitezvara where Avalokitezvara was popularly known to appear also in the form of Mahezvara". p. 459 continues: "Referring to the legend of the Avalokitezvara on the Potalaka mountain in the NORTHWEST corner of the Indian subcontinent, Hsuan Tsang says: 'to the people at the foot of the mountain Potalaka who pray for a sight of the Bodhisattva, he appears sometimes as a Pazupata TIrthika or as Mahezvara' (Watters 1905: p. 229)." Note that ALL translators of Hsuan Tsang say Potalaka is in the Malaya mountains of the deep South, never do they say Potalaka is in the Northwest India. My findings: 1) Potalaka is in the Malaya mountains of the deep South, according to gaNDavyUhasUtra (2-3 century AD), Hsuan Tsang (640 AD), Chisho (700 AD), Taaraanaatha (1600 AD).Buddhist tradition from gaNDavyUha to Taaraanaatha is remarkably consistent in locating Potalaka with Potiyil Mount of Malaya range. Potiyil/Potikai mountain is a lofty peak rising to 4000 feet in the Western Ghats, (8 deg. 37 sec. N and 77 deg. 15 sec. E). It is a rain forest known for its great waterfalls, the most famous of which is the KuRRAlam falls. 2) It is in this Potalaka of South India, (NOT in the Northwest) Avalokitezvara appears as Paazupata tIrthika or Mahezvara. 3) Hsuan Tsang only states that in nearby towns, different religions flourished: In Kapiza (afghanistan), Avalokitezvara is present where as near PuSkalAvatI, 'Siva is present. That's all. Nowhere does Tsang say that in the same place Bodhisattva appears as Mahezvara. According to Tsang, it only happens in Potalaka of the South. 4) Hsuan Tsang says, in 'SalAtura Panini was inspired by 'Siva. After several cycles of birth, he was reborn and converted to Buddhist faith. Nowhere Tsang says Panini or a later reincarnation of Panini was inspired by Avalokitezvara. 5) Candragomin who saved Mahabhasya tradition from extinction settled in Potalaka in the deep South, according to Taaraanaatha (1600 AD). Taranatha tells about 'Saantivarman's journey to Potalaka also. This is consistent with the Tamil tradition (from 11th century onwards) that Siddhas' residence par excellence is Potiyil/Potikai mountain. Ptolomy calls Potikai(Potiyil) Mountain as Bettigo. Mahabhaarata vanaparvan has Agastya in the Malaya mountain. Dandin calls Potiyil as the Southern mountain(dakSiNAdri). Dandin's usage parallels with the earlier Tamil tradition from Sangam era onwards that Malaya is THE Southern mountain. PuRanaanUru and Cilappatikaaram refers to Himalayas and Potiyil (Malaya) mountains in the same line. They are the cultural symbols of North and South in early Tamil literature. Consider Hsuan Tsang's narrative: The pilgrim, after having completed his studies at Nalanda set out to visit other places in India. "Heading eastwards through a dark forest he came to a monastery in which there was a miracle working sandal image of the Bodhisattva Avalokitezvara ..." He worshipped the image for fulfillment of his desire. He was surprised to see indications that the god has approved all his prayers. (J. Mirsky, The Great Chinese travellers, London, 1964, p. 85-86) Since Malaya is known in Tamil and Sanskrit literature as the Sandalwood mountain (CandanAdri), it appears the icon of Avalokitezvara associated with Potalaka/Malaya was made out of sandalwood. In buddhist tradition, Malaya is known for gozIrSa (candana) just like in other texts of Tamil and Sanskrit. For example, in gaNDavyUha (ch. XXIV), a gAndhikazreSThin utphalabhUti sells many perfumes and balms in which gozIrSa from Malaya figures prominently. It may be the same in KaaraNDavyUha which also connects Avalokitezvara with candanavana: "It is impossible to count the number of leaves in zIrSavana, so too are Avalokita's virtues". (This is true only if zIrSa is a contraction of gozIrSa.) Regards N. Ganesan S. Palaniappan in Indology on 11 Nov 1997 "But based on the evidence presented by Deshpande, the Tamil grammatical and literary traditions, and Chinese accounts of Tamil region, a case could be made that the zaivite and Buddhist claims originated not in the northwest of Indian subcontinent but in the southern portion of ancient Tamil region which includes present Tamilnadu and Kerala. For this to be resolved, the critical problem is the identification of a mountain called "potalaka". Deshpande has used S. Beal?s report of Yuan Chwang?s travelogue. Other scholars such as Lal Mani Joshi and Shu Hikosaka based on Thomas Watter's work on Yuan Chwang's travels, have identified the "potiyil/potiyam/potikai" mountain in Tamilnadu as "potalaka". According to Joshi, maJjuzrimUlakalpa was discovered from Manalikkara Matam near Padmanabhapuram in South India. Cunnningham, Nandolal De, and N. Dutt all suggest that "potiyil" is "potalaka". LOCATION OF POTALAKA -------------------- The following is what I read on location of Potalaka. - N. Ganesan GaNDavyUha sUtra locates Potalaka in the deep South. GanDavyUha was written around 2-3rd centuries AD. We have Chinese translations of it from 3rd century onwards. It forms the last section of Avatamsaka Sutra. It is elaborately carved in Borabudur (800 AD), painted in China, Korea and Japan. P. L. Vaidya edited GaNDvyUha in 1960. It is an improvement over the D. T. Suzuki's earlier edition. "dakSiNApathe potalako nAma parvatah" (GanDavyUha, p. 158, ch. 29, line 20). Not only does gaNDavyUha locate Potalaka in the South, it situates Potalaka after 7 places in the South and before a Southern place. It is called "girirAja potalaka". The Potiyil/Potikai mountain is 4000+ feet high. D. H. H. Ingalls, An anthology of Sanskrit court poetry, Harvard up,1965 p. 63 "One verse pictures Lokesvara seated on his mountain Potalaka which Hsuan Tsang and Taranatha placed in South India, though in the course of time other Potalakas were added". Taranatha talks of 'santivarman's journey to Potalaka hill. Marilyn M. Rhie, The Bodhisattva and the Goddess, 1980 p. 25: "This version of the compassionate bodhisattva may have evolved from the GaNDavyuuha (added to the Hua yan suutra in China in the T'ang dynasty), which describes in one episode the visit of the pilgrim Sudhana to Avalokitezvara on Mt. Potalaka in South India. He finds the Bodhisattva expounding the Sutra of Great Compassion to a host of other bodhisattvas on western slope of the mountain, where water flows from many springs and rivulets and where soft and tender grass grows" (J. Fontein, The pilgrimage of Sudhana, p. 10)." T. Watters, On Yuan Chwang's travels in India, 1905 2.229 says: "In the south of the mo-lo-kuta (malakUTa) country near the sea was mo-lo-ya (malaya) mountain, lofty cliffs and ridges and deep valleys and gullies, on which were sandal, camphor and other trees. To the east of this was the pu-ta-lo-ka (potalaka) mountain with steep narrow paths over its cliffs and gorges in irregular confusion; on the top was a lake of clear water, whence issues a river which on its wayto the sea, flowed twenty times round the mountain. By the side of the lake was a deva place frequented by kuan-tzu-tsai-p?usa (avalokitezvara). Devotees, risking life, brave water and mountain to see the p?usa, but only a few succeed in reaching the shrine. To the people at the foot of the mountain who pray for a sight of the P?usa, he appears sometimes as a pazupata tIrthika, or mahezvara, and consoles the suppliant with his answer." S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884 2.233 says: "To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-la-ka (Potalaka)." Daiyo Goto, Kanzeon Bosatsu no kenkyu, Tokyo, 1970 says: Chin-sheng (Chisho, 688-740 AD) of T'ang dynasty has mentioned that Malaya country is near the Potalaka mountain, the residence of Avalokitezvara. L. M. Joshi, Studies in the Buddhist culture of India, 1967 "This Potalaka is located by Hsuan Tsang in MalakuuTa, identified by Cunningham with a tract between Madura, Tanjore and Travancore. Nandolal De suggested that Potalaka lay in Western Ghats. Nalinaksha Dutt suggests that modern Potiyam may represent Potalaka [203]" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 9 04:11:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 20:11:34 -0800 Subject: Where was PANini inspired? (Part II) Message-ID: <161227043437.23782.15487369544382056338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where does 'Siva or Avalokitesvara inspire? ******************************************** Hindus claim Panini was inspired by 'Siva. Buddhists say it is actually from Avalokitezvara. These competing claims originated in the Tamil India. Reasons are given below. With kind regards, N. Ganesan Section A: From Sanskrit Sources: ---------------------- a) Inspired by 'Siva: --------------------- <<< Within the Paninian tradition, the first author to make reference to this story is Haradatta, the author of the commentary PadamaJjari on the KaazikaavRtti. In the introductory section (vol. I, pp. 8-9), Haradatta (10th century?) says, about PaaNini's extraordinary ability to see the entire infinite language: kathaM punar asmadAdInAM sarvalakSyadarzitvam? mA bhUd asnadAdInAm, asmadviziSTAnAM maharSINAM sambhavati/ yasya vA IzvarAnugrahaH sa sarvaM pratyakSayati/ atraiva hi laukikAH smaranti - yenAkSarasamAmnAyam adhigamya maheZvarAt kRtsnaM vyAkaraNam proktaM tasmai pANinaye namaH iti/ akSarasamAmnAyaM ca vyAcakSate devasUtrANiti How can folks like us see all the target language? Perhaps not for folks like us, but such [an ability] is possible for the great sages who are superior to us. Or, a person who has been graced by God can directly see everything. In this context, the learned of the world remember, "Salutations to Panini, who having acquired the akSarasamAmnAya from the Great Lord [='Siva] narrated the whole grammar." They call the akSarasamAmnAya by the term devasUtra. >>> from Ref. 1. Haradatta is a South Indian author from the Chola area. b) Inspired by Avalokitezvara: ------------------------------ PART I: ------- Tibetan Lamas, Bu-ston (13th century) and TArAnAtha (1608 AD) expand on ManjusrimUlakalpa. This sutra called Manjusrimulakalpa (10th century) awards a lower form of enlightenment (=zrAvakabodhi) to Panini. It never explicitly says that Avalokitezvara taught Panini the grammar nor more specifically akSarasamAmnAya (alphabet). Manjusrimulakalpa is one of the very few buddhist Sanskrit texts that have survived in India. It was found at Manalikkara Matam near PadmanAbhapuram, a stone's throw from Cape Comarin and was edited by T. Ganapati Sastri at Tiruvananthapuram. Possibly this is from Muulavaasam buddhist monastery, few miles from Potiyil mountain in the deep South. An avalokitezvara from Muulavaasam monastery was discovered in Gandhara region with the inscription, 'dakSiNApatho mUlavAsa lokanAtha'. Avalokita is said to be a resident of Potalaka. GaNDavyUha(2-3 centuries AD) and Taaranaatha locate Potalaka in the deep South. Potalaka is located in the Malaya mountains by Hsuan Tsang. N. Dutt, B. C. Law, S. Hikosaka, K. A. Nilakanta Sastri and others identify Potalaka with Potiyil in the Malaya mountain range. Candragomin, who saved the Mahabhasya tradition from extinction went and settled down at the Mount Potalaka. He is still living there, according to Taranatha. Hsuan Tsang says that in Potalaka od South India, "to the people at the foot of the mountain Potalaka who pray for a sight of the Bodhisattva, he appears sometimes as a Pazupata TIrthika or as Mahezvara" (Watters 1905: p. 229). We have inscriptional evidence for the presence of pAzupathas in a management role of the temple at kuRRAlam at the foot of potiyil in the tenth century. Manimekalai has an episode where a vidyAdhara couple make a pilgrimage to Potiyil. Manimekalai, the only Buddhist epic (6th century) we have, does not say whether Potiyil is Buddhist or Hindu. Hsuan Tsang says that Panini was born in the Northwest and inspired by 'Siva. He never says that Panini in the Northwest was inspired by Avalokitezvara. >?From Hsuan Tsang, we understand that In the Northwest they make a belated conversion of Panini to Buddhism. After 500 years of his times, Panini was reborn a bright boy who converts to Buddhism. We are NOT told by Hsuan Tsang that this boy, a reincarnation of Panini after some 500 years, was inspired by Avalokitezvara. PART II: -------- DharmakIrti, the author of the grammar RUpAvatAra is from South India. Malur Rangacharya in his RUpAvatAra edition done at Madras guesses him to be the Ceylonese DharmakIrti, author of bAlAvatAra. When Rangacharya made this guess, Manimekalai, the Tamil Buddhist epic was not discovered. After that, 10s of avalokitas and 100s of buddha statues have been discovered standing in maNDapams of Siva or Vishnu temples. Inst. of Asian studies, Madras is bringing out a book on these Tamil Buddhist sculptures. But Rupavatara is attested in many inscriptions widely in Tamilnadu and Kerala at least 100 years before the time of bAlAvatAra."At eNNAyiram in South Arcot the Chola Rajendra I endowed a large collection of (1) 270 junior students of whom 40 studied the elements of grammar according to the rUpAvatAra..." (A History of South India by K. A. Nilakanta Sastri, p.323). He must have been named after the famous logician, DharmakIrti who hailed from Tamil South also. DharmakIrti, a Buddhist of 10th century, cites the same verse as quoted by Haradatta earlier. First is that prayer to Mahesvara and then only to Buddha. In the Mahayana Buddhist context, it means that DharmakIrti makes a prayer to Bodhisattva Avalokitezvara first and then only to Buddha. Section B: From Tamil Sources: ------------------------------ c) Inspired by 'Siva --------------------- uzakkum maRai nAlin2um uyarntu, ulakam Otum vazakkin2um, matik kaviyin2um, marapin2 nATi, - nizal poli kaNicci, maNi neRRi umiz cegkaN, tazal purai cuTark kaTavuL tanta tamiz tantAn2. - kampan2 2762 (9th or 11th century) Here, Kamban in his Ramayana, talks of Agastya teaching Tamil in Potiyil mountain. "Greater than the four Vedas, widely used by common folk, and also in learned poetry, Tamil excels; Agastya teaches that Tamil, which he learnt from 'Siva, holding an axe, with a third eye red as a ruby, and with a body glowing like fire." The 11-12th century Saivaite text Nandikezvara kArikA/kAzikaa says that from 'Siva's dance the Sanskrit letters were born. nRttAvasAne naTarAjarAjo nanAda DhakkAM navapaJcavAram/ uddhartukAmaH sanakAdisiddhAn etad vimarze zivasUtrajAlam // (MaAabhASya (nirNayasAgar ed.) I:132 This text is most likely Southern and not Kashmiri as the name, naTarAja never occurs in Kashmiri 'Saivaite texts. Also, Nandikezvara Kaarikaa is never quoted in any Kashmiri text. Furthermore, Upamanyu, the commentator on this work refers to Chidambaram Nataraja's dance and, myths of RSis like vyAgrapAda and pataJjali. Upamanyu bhakta vilAsam is a popular Sanskrit text retelling the PeriyapurANam stories of Tamil 'Saivaite saints (nAyanmAr). Prof. Raffaele Torella informed that "This is strongly my impression" when I queried whether Nandikezvara KArikA is a Southern text. Tamil kuutta nUl, a dance treatise, (13-14th century?) says: "From one side of 'Siva's drum comes Sanskrit letters and the other side gives birth to Tamil letters." This myth is retold in Kanchi purANam also. (((Aside: Relations between Kashmir Saivism and Southern Agamic and Tamil Saiva SiddhAntam need to be explored much further. Dance is celebrated in many poems of sangam texts. Siva's dance is portrayed vividly many times in Tirumantiram, CilappatikAram, Karaikkal Ammai's (fifth century) decads of songs, Tevaram etc., For entry of Dance in Sanskrit tradition, a) Indu Sekhar, Origin and decline of Sanskrit drama, b) S. A. Srinivasan, On the origin of Natyasastra, For Nataraja concept, see Zvelebil, AnandatANDava mUrti. A. Danielou, While the Gods play talks of Dravidian part in SaivAgamas. Compared to Tamil sources, Siva's dance in Mahabharata and Kumarasambhava are meagre, only a couple of words. Kalidasa more over, has Southern connexions (cf. G. Hart's works)))). d) Inspired by Avalokitezvara: ------------------------------ Ayum kuNattu avalOkitan2 pakkal akattiyan2 kETTu Eyum puvan2ikku iyampiya taNTamiz IGku uraikka nIyum uLaiyO? en2il, 'karuTan2 cen2Ra nIL vicumpil Iyum paRakkum', itaRku en2 kolO collum! EntizaiyE. - puttamittiran2Ar, (11th century) This is from a 11th century grammar, ViiracOziyam. Its author is puttamittiran2 (Buddhamitra), the Chieftain of PonpaRRi naaDu. He says in the foreword (paayiram) of the book that AvalOkitiisvara taught Tamil to Agastya first. In such explicit terms, Avalokitezvara never inspires Panini in Sanskrit texts at all. "My dear girl, adorned with jewels! My attempt at explaining Tamil grammar which Agastya learnt from Avalokitesvara, is like a house fly trying to follow the Garuda's path in the big sky." Summary: --------- Tamil (its grammar), Agastya, Potiyil (Potalaka), 'Siva are intimately related in all possible combinations in post-classical Tamil literature all the time. 'Siva inspiring Panini within the Paninian tradition is told for the first time by Haradatta of Chola area. Around 10th century, manjusrimulakalpa, which may well be Southern, tells Avalokitezvara awarded 'srAvakabodhi enligtenment to Panini. Outside the Paninian tradition, Hsuan Tsang narrates Panini being inspired by 'Siva in 'Salatura. This story he might have heard during his years in the South. However Tsang might have narrated it during his travelogue writing on 'Salatura and its most famous son, Panini. In any case, there is no association of 'Siva and Panini before Hsuan Tsang. No Sanskrit text tells us that Avalokitezvara inspired Panini to write his grammar whereas in Tamil viiracOziyam tells us that Avalokitezvara taught Tamil grammar to Agastya. Lokesh Chandra,1979, ODDiyAna: a new interpretation says: "the acculturation of 'Siva into Buddhist tradition may have takenplace in South India and thence it was transmitted to Indonesia where 'Siva-Buddha syncretism was deeply entrenched." Given that 'Siva teaches Tamil grammar to Agastya is attested early in Tamil and that competing Buddhist and Hindu claims originate and evolve both in Southern Sanskrit and Tamil texts, then these ideas about Panini's inspirers travelled northward. With kind regards, N. Ganesan Acknowledgement: Inspiration for this writeup came from M. Deshpande, Who Inspired Panini? Reconstructing the Hindu and Buddhist Counter-Claims", Journal of the American Oriental Society, 117.3 (1997), pp. 444-465. (Ref.1). My e-disscussions with Prof. Deshpande and Dr. S. Palaniappan are always useful. My thanks to them. - N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 9 04:15:37 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 20:15:37 -0800 Subject: Where was PANini inspired? (Part III) Message-ID: <161227043440.23782.12841356401683374638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What started my trail to locate Potalaka is the following mail from Dr. S. Palaniappan. Please bear in mind that the following was written taking that Potalaka is identified to be in the Northwest India. Subsequent research has revealed that NO old author locates it in the Northwest. All place Potalaka in the deep South as Potiyil/Potikai mountain. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: S. Palaniappan Subj: potalaka, potiyil, pANini, avalokitezvara, agastya, and tolkAppiyar Date: 11/08/97 Yesterday, I read M.M. Deshpande?s recent JAOS article on Buddhist claims on pANini. It evoked some questions regarding possible linguistic one-upmanship regarding Tamil which seems to have some connection with Deshpande?s research through the name "potalaka", the mountain which was the abode of avalokitezvara. I do not know if an identity of "potalaka" is established with certainty. Shu Hikosaka identifies potalaka as potiyil or potikai mountain in Tirunelveli District in Tamilnadu based on the following. A mahAyAna text, "gaNDavyUha says, "In the southern direction, there is a mountain named potalaka, where lives a bodhisattva of the name avalokitezvara." The travelogue of Yuan Chwang says, "In the south of the mo-lo-kuta (malakUTa) country near the sea was mo-lo-ya (malaya) mountain, lofty cliffs and ridges and deep valleys and gullies, on which were sandal, camphor and other trees. To the east of this was the pu-ta-lo-ka (potalaka) mountain with steep narrow paths over its cliffs and gorges in irregular confusion; on the top was a lake of clear water, whence issues a river which on its wayto the sea, flowed twenty times round the mountain. By the side of the lake was a deva place frequented by kuan-tzu-tsai-p?usa (avalokitezvara). Devotees, risking life, brave water and mountain to see the p?usa, but only a few succeed in reaching the shrine. To the people at the foot of the mountain who pray for a sight of the P?usa, he appears sometimes as a pazupata tIrthika, or mahezvara, and consoles the suppliant with his answer." Chin-sheng (ChishO 688-740 A.D.) of T?ang dynasty has also mentioned that malaya country is near the potalaka mountain which is the place of avalokitezvara. While Hikosaka?s etymology of potiyil as deriving from "bodhi" has been rightly criticized as flawed, I have not seen any criticism of his identification of potiyil with potalaka. "potiyil" refers to "a public place (for religious gathering)" Of course, I would like to know the views of Buddhist scholars on this identification. Even if potiyil is not potalaka, potiyil is interesting in its own right. The earliest Tamil texts do not associate potiyil with RSi agastya. A late classical text with considerable Sanskrit influence mentions "potiyil munivan2", meaning "the muni of potiyil". Even here agastya is not mentioned by name. Perhaps the earliest association of potiyil with agastya occurs in mahAbhArata. In Vanaparvan we find, "..in the land of the pANDyas the Fords-of-agastya and varuNa: there too are the Holy-Maidens said to be, bull among men. I shall now mention the tAmraparNI, listen, kaunteya, where the Gods, longing for a great reward, did austerities. GokarNa is celebrated in the three worlds, bhArata, holy and auspicious, my son, and the water is cool and abundant there. There is a lake of extremely difficult access to people who have not perfected their souls. There too is the holy hermitage of agastya?s pupil tRNasomAgni on Mount devasabhA, with plenty of fruit and roots. There is the propitious and illustrious Mount vaiDUrya, which is made of precious stones, and agastya?s- hermitage with abundant roots, fruit, and water." Here, devasabhA seems to be translation of potiyil. The temple at kuRRAlam at the base of potiyil is one of the primary sabhAs (like Chidambaram, Madurai, etc.) where ziva is supposed to dance. The post-classical Tamil tradition says agastya authored the first Tamil grammar and tolkAppiyar, the author of the earliest extant Tamil grammar, was a disciple of agastya. A medieval commentator says tolkAppiyar?s real name was tiraNatumAkkin2i. The similarity to mahAbhArata is obvious. When we consider the fact that in the preface to tolkAppiyam, he is praised as well-versed in "aintiram" or "aindra". Aindra was supposedly a grammatical text with Jain influence. Also, it seems that there are indications that tolkAppiyar might have been a Jain. Given this, the attempt to give a Vedic origin for the Tamil grammatical tradition seems to be the opposite of what Buddhists were doing with respect to pANini. Is it possible to say who was copying whom? There is an interesting episode in cilappatikAram, the Tamil epic, regarding the grammar, aindra. When kOvalan2, kaNNaki, and the Jain nun kavunti are travelling to Madurai, on the way they meet a brahmin who talks to them about a pond called holy zaravaNa in tirumAlkunRam (present azakar kOyil). He says that if the travelers take a bath in that pond, they will attain proficiency in the text of the chief of the devas, i.e., aindra. The Jain nun replies that there is no need to do what the brahmin suggests and that the text by Indra of kalpas is included in a Jain text. (The Tamil word for the Jain text is "meyppATTiyaRkai" and the commentators call it "paramAgama".) While the Veda-philes might have one-upped the Jains by creating a Vedic agastya as teacher for a Jain tolkAppiyar, a medieval (11th /12th century) Buddhist Tamil grammarian, puttamittiran, one-upped them in turn by saying that avalokitezvara was the teacher of agastya. Incidentally, puttamittiran?s reliance on Sanskrit grammatical models has been noted by Rajam Ramamurti. Hikosaka suggests that the association of agastya with avalokitezvara might have been due to akittajAtaka (akitta-being an altered form of akattiya). It should be noted, the location of potiyil is close to the probable home of tolkAppiyar in southern Kerala. TolkAppiyam was presented first in the court of a Pandya king and was reviewed to be without faults by a teacher of ataGkOTu (present Trivandrum area). In any case, the choice of a pot-born RSi is also interesting because of other "potter" resonances. If indeed potalaka is identified with a place in the northwestern region, the similarity in myths suggest some connection between southern Tamilakam and the north/northwest. Is this another possible indication of linkage between tolkAppiyar and the kApyas of the northwest of the upaniSads? Finally, Deshpande quotes Ashok Aklujkar?s discussion on the identification of "Parvata" the place in the southern india from where the mahAbHSya tradition was received. "Last in terms of acceptability is the equation of ?parvata = tri-kUTa (as mountain or region)?." I do not have access to Aklujkar?s paper. But, I thought it is interesting that tirikUTamalai (tri-kUTa mountain) or kuRRAlam is the potiyil mountain. Regards S. Palaniappan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 9 04:20:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 20:20:20 -0800 Subject: Where was PANini inspired? (Part IV) Message-ID: <161227043488.23782.13262515225112778917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following has relevance to the question "Where is Panini inspired?". The earliest Tamil sangam texts refer to 'Siva as God under the banyan tree. Those Pre-Pallava references from Tamil sangam texts on 'Siva under the banyan tree: a) aal amar kaTavuL an2n2a nin2 celvam - puRam b) kaTavuL aalattu taTavu cin2ai pal pazam - puRam c) tAtu eru maRukin2 A puRam tINTum neTu vIz iTTa kaTavuL aalattu uku pali aruntiya toku viral kAkkai - naRRiNai d) Al amar celvan2 aNi caal makan2 vizaa - kalittokai e) Al kezu kaTavuL putalva, mAl varai malai makaL makan2E! - tiru muruku. In 4-5th centuries, CilappatikAram and Manimekalai refer to dakSiNAmUrti. Later, 'Siva teaching vedas under the banyan tree occurs in Tevaram many times. According to Tevaram, 'Siva is the inner meaning of all authors. Some dakSiNAmUrti images are seated in rAjalIlAsana similar to Avalokitezvara images. As dakSiNAmUrti is the only Hindu image (that is known to me) shown in deep contemplation, does it show Buddhist influences? On 8 dec 1998, Southeast Asian connections during Pallava era between Potalaka, ziva, avalokitezvara, agastya were given. (cf. Indology archives) Regards, N. Ganesan Dr. S. Palaniappan writes in Indology: ------------------------------------- I feel that the tradition of ziva inspiring pANini might have been inspired by the story of dakSiNAmUrti. Consider the following attestations aRam kiLarum nAlvEtam Alin2 kIz iruntu aruLi (tevAram 1.131.7) sitting under the banyan tree and having bestowed the four vedas which expound the Rta .... Alin2 kIz aRagkaL ellAm an2Ru avarkku aruLicceytu nUlin2 kIzavarkaTku ellAm nuNporuL Aki nin2Ru (tevAram 4.36.6.1-2) Having bestowed upon them the Rtas under the banyan tree and for all the owners/authors of texts becoming the fine inner meaning.... kal Alin2 puTai amarntu nAl maRai ARu agkam mutal kaRRa kELvi vallArkaL nAlvarukkum vAkku iRanta pUraNam Ay maRaikkap pAlAy (tiruviLaiyATal purANam 14.2.14.1-2) Becoming the ancient legend beyond words for the four who learnt well the four vedas and six angas sitting beside the banyan tree and transcending the vedas .... One of the six angas is, of course, the grammar. There is an interesting episode in cilappatikAram, the Tamil epic (not later than 5th century AD), regarding the grammar, aindra. When kOvalan2, kaNNaki, and the Jain nun kavunti are travelling to Madurai, on the way they meet a brahmin who talks to them about a pond called holy zaravaNa in tirumAlkunRam (present azakar kOyil). He says that if the travelers take a bath in that pond, they will attain proficiency in the text of the chief of the devas, i.e., aindra. The Jain nun replies that there is no need to do what the brahmin suggests and that the text by Indra of kalpas is included in a Jain text. (The Tamil word for the Jain text is "meyppATTiyaRkai" and the commentators call it "paramAgama".) The importance of grammar as felt in Tamil land at the time and competition between different religious schools to possess it seems to come through this episode. tEvAram texts cited above may be dated to the early 7th century AD. The tiruviLaiyATal purANam is a later text. But the tradition may be even older. ziva in Classical Tamil texts is usually referred to by the name "Al amar celvan2" (the Izvara who sits under the banyan tree). Thus the dakSiNAmurti motif is very old. What I would like is more information to see if there are any Sanskrit or Buddhist precursors to this motif as found in Tamilnadu. I would very much like to know the following details regarding the dakSiNAmurti story in which ziva teaches four disciples/sages under the banyan tree. 1.The Sanskrit text that mentions this story for the first time and the date of the text 2. The subjects that ziva taught these four disciples/sages 3. The names of these four disciples/sages 4. The earliest iconographic representation of this story S. Palaniappan --------------------------------------- On 1 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan replied in Indology <<<< My random thoughts. The most important study on dakSiNAmUrti is published by TiruvAvaTutuRai AtIn2am: S. Narayanacuvami, TaTciNAmUrtti: Akamam & Cilpam, TiruvAvaTutuRai AtIn2am, 1991 (OCLC Number: 34114086) (A similar book by ca. taNTapANi tEcikar got expanded into Nataraja in art, thought and literature in English). The Rishis are canakar, canantanar, canAtanar and canatkumarar. (Coined to sound like Sanatkumara? Brahma-Sanatkumara myth??) This book will give all tamil and sanskrit verses on dakSiNAmUrti as well as icons. Tevaram (or Cankam Texts?) say the banyan tree underwhich Al amar celvan2 (the god under the banyan tree, dakSiNAmUrti) has small pots hanging. These small pots are represented in Chola era dakSiNAmurti images! I have seen an article by P. L. Samy, IAS (Retd.) showing these. (P. L. Samy did excellent studies on biological names of fauna/flora of Cankam Texts.) Have not seen dakSiNAmUrti images, north of Tamilnadu compared to literally 100s of them in the deep South. Do they occur in Badami, Aihole, Pattadakal? What about Kashmir? Kashmir 'Saiva texts exist from ninth century AD. The Kashmir agamic saivism and Tamil saivism are related. Where are the early dakSiNAmUrti images apart from the deep South?? DakSiNAmUrti worship occurs in 'Saivagamas of Sivachariar priests. It is probably taken into Smarta tradition by Sankaracharya. Does Ritual in an oscillating universe (Richard Davis) speak of DakSiNAmUrti worship? May be Helene Brunner has written on DakSiNAmUrti?? Pl. check books on 'Siva. Meister, Discourses on Siva, works by S. Kramrisch, F. Clothey and W. Doniger come to my mind. If Daksinamurti is in Sanskrit, these will have something about Him. Talking of the aindra episode in CilappatikAram: Kamban says an2uman2 is an expert in aindra grammar in many places. (Much) Before CilappatikAram, the Preface of TolkAppiyam, the first extant book in Tamil, talks of aindra grammar and four vedas as well. So, the competition between PaninIya and non-pANinian aindra occurs even earlier than CilappatikAram. (A. C. Burnell, The aindra school of Sanskrit grammarians, 1875). The entire life story of mANikkavAcakar is built around the theme of 'Siva as his Teacher. AtmanAthasvAmi temple at AvuTaiyArkOil temple legends. They have been well analyzed by G. E. Yocum 1) The goddess and the guru: two models of Universal order in Tamil India, Religion and Global order, p. 87-117, NY: Paragon House, 1991 2) Wisdom made visible: the divine teacher in Tamil 'Saiva temple and monastic rituals, Studia Missionalia, 36, 1987, p. 175-193 3) God and Man in the Tamil 'Savia Siddhanta, In search of the divine, p. 41-58, NY: Paragon House, 1987. Potiyil (Potalaka in Buddhist Sanskrit), Tamil, Agastya, and Agastya being taught by 'Siva are narrated for atleast 1500 years. Potiyil/Potikai rain forests with a lofty mountain and great waterfalls is the ideal abode of Avalokitezvara. Some early texts in Sanskrit call Potalaka 'Paradise on Earth'. (cf. M-T. Mallmann, Avalokitecvara, 1949). For 'Siva in a grove, see Paul Younger, The family of 'Siva in a South Indian grove, Studies in religion, 11, 3, 1982, p. 245-263. 'Siva, in the garden of Potiyil Mountain teaches Agastya. Apart from TiruvAvaTutuRai work, consult: 1) T. M. P. Mahadevan, The hymns of Sankara, 1980 2) Sri Sankaracharya's Daksinamurti stotra with the vArttika of Manasollasa of Suresvaracharya. Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore, 1992 On South Indian Iconography of dakshinamurti: consult the series: J. Filliozat, Les images de 'Siva dans l'Inde du Sud, Arts Asiatiques (Paris), 8, 1961, p. 43-56 M. E. Adiceam, Les images de 'Siva dans l'Inde du Sud, Arts Asiatiques (Paris), 11 (1964) 23-44; 12 (1965) 83-112; 13 (1966) 83-99; 17 (1968) 143-172; 19 (1969) 85-106. I also think that 'Siva as the teacher, 'Siva as the teacher of Tamil and Sanskrit originated in the deep South. In the case of Buddhism, it is Avalokitezvara of Potalaka. Legends of Agastya, ManikkavAcakar, aindra grammar etc., These myths are attested first in Tamil and Sanskrit letters produced in the South. Regards, N. Ganesan >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 9 06:05:17 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 01:05:17 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043447.23782.13918322044015306923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Several Tamil inscriptions have intriguing names of brahmins who received royal grants. The names contain words meaning pot, bowl or urn. These are not very rare occurrences either. For instance, along with droNa/tONa, we find maNTai/maNTa (manDa), tA_li, caTTi. Take for instance, the Pullur plates of Nandivarman II lists the names of 108 brahmins. Of these there are seventeen with names like caTTi zarman, tA_li zarman, maNTai zarman, tONa zarman. (That the Tamil form tONa stands for doNa is clear from other inscriptions.) caTTi (DEDR 2306), tA_li (DEDR 3182), maNTai (DEDR 4682) all refer to different type of earthern vessels. We should note that Pallavas claimed themselves to be brahmin descendants of droNa born in a bucket/trough. As a result one can assume many brahmins could have had droNa/tONa in their names. But, we also have the form tONamaNTa zarman ( ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > You must mean R. Nagasamy, I guess. > Thank you, Dr Ganesan, for pointing this out. I must have been wool gathering! BTW, in the cover page of the book as well as in self-referential contexts, the author seems to spell his name as R. Nagaswamy. Thanks and Regards. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 9 13:00:07 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 05:00:07 -0800 Subject: Where was PANini inspired? (Part I) Message-ID: <161227043452.23782.1157323951091981198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following has relevance to the question "Where is Panini inspired?". The earliest Tamil sangam texts refer to 'Siva as God under the banyan tree. Those Pre-Pallava references from Tamil sangam texts on 'Siva under the banyan tree: a) aal amar kaTavuL an2n2a nin2 celvam - puRam b) kaTavuL aalattu taTavu cin2ai pal pazam - puRam c) tAtu eru maRukin2 A puRam tINTum neTu vIz iTTa kaTavuL aalattu uku pali aruntiya toku viral kAkkai - naRRiNai d) Al amar celvan2 aNi caal makan2 vizaa - kalittokai e) Al kezu kaTavuL putalva, mAl varai malai makaL makan2E! - tiru muruku. In 4-5th centuries, CilappatikAram and Manimekalai refer to dakSiNAmUrti. Later, 'Siva teaching vedas under the banyan tree occurs in Tevaram many times. According to Tevaram, 'Siva is the inner meaning of all authors. Some dakSiNAmUrti images are seated in rAjalIlAsana similar to Avalokitezvara images. As dakSiNAmUrti is the only Hindu image (that is known to me) shown in deep contemplation, does it show Buddhist influences? On 8 dec 1998, Southeast Asian connections during Pallava era between Potalaka, ziva, avalokitezvara, agastya were given. (cf. Indology archives) Regards, N. Ganesan Pl. see Postings under the title dakSiNAmUrti also in Indology archives. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Dec 9 02:09:00 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 07:09:00 +0500 Subject: Family jewels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043430.23782.8587486600886034054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:12 PM 12/8/98 -1000, you wrote: >Various people wrote: > >> [... Female earrings ...] > > >Is it OK to keep my studs >in the same box as my wife's >female earrings? > Certainly. And if they breed in the box you will have ornaments galore. >Yours prudishly, > >Raja. > >PS: Could I be held liable for > brooch of promise? Yes. But you can always atone by giving away golden brooches to deserving people like me. regards, sarma. From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 9 12:49:58 1998 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 07:49:58 -0500 Subject: Yasas - Sura. Message-ID: <161227043450.23782.12547808005134739620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List, Does anyone have a sense of the difference between Yazas and Kiirti, usually both translated as 'Fame'. Also, does anyone understand the difference between Zuura and Viira, both usually translated as 'Hero'. My MBH. readings seem to show me that Yazas concerns material power, whereas Kiirti is more related to report or renown. Similarly, Zuura would appear to be more connected with one who possesses the latter, whilst Viira is more related to Yazas. I would be grateful for any comments. Your suggestions about Epic DAIVAM were all very useful: thank you for these. Kevin McGrath. From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 9 16:28:19 1998 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 08:28:19 -0800 Subject: "Conceptional Purging of Indology" Message-ID: <161227043459.23782.13697901280363502803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his preface to volume IX of The Study of Indian History and Culture, entitled "Dharma and Vedic Foundations," general editor S.D.Kulkarni refers to an article "Conceptional Purging of Indology" by Y.S.Yerkuntwar, a renowned traditional Indologist and scholar from Nagpur. The article appeared in the June and August, 1975 issues of Hindutva, a journal published from Varanasi. If any member of Indology list is familiar with this article I would request him/her to put the essence of Yerkuntwar's arguments on the Indology list so that academics can have a debate on how a traditional rationalist and scholar perceived Indology; what according to him, needs to be purged from Indology as it generally understood by scholars etc. I understand that Mr Yerkuntwar was editor of a Marathi trimonthly "Prajnalok" and died about two years ago. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 9 04:04:44 1998 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 09:34:44 +0530 Subject: maitri upanishad Message-ID: <161227043433.23782.5663151435025019542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was a book: Maitri or Maitrayaniya Upanishad / translated by E.B. Cowell. Published by Asiatic Society, Calcutta, in 1935 To my knowledge no reprint edition is available. You may like to approach some library in order to find a copy on inter-library-loan. Best regards, Surya P. Mittal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053 A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067 Najafgarh Road Orders->E-mailto:ordproc at dkagencies.com New Delhi - 110 059. E-mailto:custserv at dkagencies.com Our Website : http://www.dkagencies.com Online Search : http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Margo von Romberg wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the Maitri Upanishad (English > translation)? > > I have searched the WWW but can't find it. None of the internet bookshops > I have tried seem to have it. > > Best wishes, > Margo von Romberg From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Dec 9 20:27:05 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 10:27:05 -1000 Subject: Yasas - Sura. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043463.23782.10325106220568842079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Kevin McGrath wrote: > Also, does anyone understand the difference between Zuura and > Viira, both usually translated as 'Hero'. The words "sooran" and "veeran" (borrowed from Skt) exist also in Tamil. Perhaps the difference in their meanings may be useful to you. In Tamil, "veeran" means "hero". "Sooran" can also mean "hero". But "sooran" has some additional overtones of being victorious or successful in an endeavour. A loser could be a "veeran", but in Tamil it doesn't sound right to call a loser a "sooran". In fact, in Tamil another meaning of "sooran" is "a person who is skillful, accomplished, or intelligent". There are many dialects in Tamil. The above information may or may not be correct for all of them. Regards, Raja. From roheko at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Dec 9 14:03:49 1998 From: roheko at T-ONLINE.DE (Rolf Koch) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 15:03:49 +0100 Subject: devanagarifont SANSKRITA keyboard layout Message-ID: <161227043454.23782.11851725741415054828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The number of total characters possible under windows ANSI standard is the same as under DOS: 224, due to the number of possible combinations in a 8-bit byte, minus the 32 nonprinting control characters. The main keyboard provides keys for each of the alphabetic characters and punctuations marks, numbered 32 through 127. Additional characters are numbered from 128 to 255. To find out the keyboard layout of SANSKRITA font make a list. In each line you access a character by holding down the ALT key, typing the number (from 032 upto 0255) on the n u m e r i c keypad (on the right side - with the NumLock light on) and then releasing the ALT-key. ALT+0196, for example, produces the ligature t(underdot)tha(underdot). Print out the final list. To put a character on a shortcut (for easier access) see the WINDOWS help (catchword: producing a SHORTCUT). This should help you. Greetings roheko at t-online.de From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Wed Dec 9 21:14:41 1998 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 16:14:41 -0500 Subject: Eklingj Research Message-ID: <161227043465.23782.9693320852048443462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues, I have begun a project of several years duration which will result in two monographs: (1) An English translation of the EKALINGAMAHATMYAM (using Prem Lata Sharma's and other editions) and (2) a study of the Eklingji mandir: its art, architecture, and ritual life, including its intimate relationship to the royal family of Mewar this with the cooperation of Shriji Arvind Singh Mewar, the former Maharana of Mewar. Apart from Tod, Sharma and others who include some descriptive material in their studies of Mewar and/or Rajasthan, I have yet to find anyone who has done any serious work on either EKALINGAMAHATMYAM or Eklingji. I would be grateful if anyone on the list could suggest additional materials that they may have encountered on either. I am looking also for copies of a related Sanskrit text, DAINIK-KRIYA, which G. N. Sharma notes on page 63 of his BIBLIOGRAPHY OF MEDIAEVAL RAJASTHAN as a ritual text associated with Eklingji. Please feel free to email me directly at jdwhite at email.uncc.edu. I shall be away in India and U. K. December 24--January 14 searching and will put my INDOLOGY subscription on hold during that time, so anything before or after those dates will be appreciated. Thanks, Dan White From J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU Wed Dec 9 06:52:29 1998 From: J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU (John Napier) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 16:52:29 +1000 Subject: Horror vacuii Message-ID: <161227043445.23782.14837574229336572815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The recent discussion of Siva's earrings prompts me to ask a question. In "The Wonder that was India" Basham writes of Indian plastic arts that they exhibit "horror vacuii" or "fear of blank spaces". Of course, this is a rather perjorative way of putting it. I seek a parallel Indian aesthetic term for the impulse to ornament, or the desirability of alamkar. If any body can point me to a source, I would be most grateful. John Napier From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Wed Dec 9 15:52:14 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 17:52:14 +0200 Subject: thuggees Message-ID: <161227043457.23782.4835426960597603303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few more references in addition to those given by A. Karp: Reynolds, Notes on the T'hags, JRAS 4, 1837, 200-213. I. Sahai, The crime of Thagi and its suppression under Lord W. C. Bentinck, Indian Culture 3, 1936-37, 147-152, 319-327, 455-463. J. Shakespear, Observations regarding Badheks and T'hegs, Asiatic Researches 13, 1820, 282-292. Of Taylor's book there should be an edition with introduction and glossary by W. Stewart. Oxford 1916. A. J. Wightman, No friendsw for Travellers. London 1959 (cf. JRAS 1960, 84). Regards Klaus From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 10 02:28:57 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 18:28:57 -0800 Subject: Horse breeding in India Message-ID: <161227043494.23782.10079147777755151412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote in Indology: >>But can we really say that *the horse has always been imported* while >>since the Vedic period Sanskrit literature constantly mentions horse-breeding >>in the North-West of the subcontinent? On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Vidyanatha Rao replied: <<< In Jan/Feb 97, there was a discussion in this list about the alleged difficulty of breeding horses in India. In spite of confident assertions of such difficulty, attributed to the climate, horse-breeding (of local breeds, naturally, not of thorough-breds:-) was alive and well in India, including Central India and parts of the peninsula, as attested by one of the references I gave. >>> Dr. V. Rao's references are by the British in colonial days. British had less problems in horse breeding due to advances in vetenary sciences, etc., But Indians always had trouble breeding horses. Arab settlers on the Kerala coast sold horses brought by sea. Pre-3rd century AD Pattin2appAlai tells: "nIrin2 vanta nimir parip puraviyum" - horses that came via the sea waters. In Sangam classical texts, princes have horses and people were awed by their speed. Major portion MaanikkavAcakar's (9th century) life revolves around going to the West coast to purchase horses for the Pandyan army. Peacocks are SubrahmaNya-Murukan's vAhana. After Muslims were employed as horse trainers and riders in Vijayanagar armies, ArunagirinAthar calls Murukan as the Peacock riding Rahout in 14th century (mayil ERu rAvuttan2 - tiruppukaz). Portugese residents at Vijayanagar have kept accounts of the number of horses bought every year. I have seen some references on this horse trade across the sea. My books, notes are in the boxes, Will post the references some day. Definitely, India had trouble breeding horses until the British arrived. Any data on horse imports in Mauryan, Gupta and Moghul periods? Regards, N. Ganesan Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: >By the way, I think that the participants in the debate on the spread of >horses in India quite undeservedly ignored the archeological materials >of the *megalithic* culture which at some sites (e.g. on the territory >of historical Vidarbha) can be dated now as early as the beginning of >the I mill. BC. Here we can speak really in terms of MASS material, >consisting of bone remains and innumerable articles of metal harness. On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Vidyanatha Rao replied: [...] <<< The ``articles of metal harness'' seem to be, for the most part, bits, often snaffle bits, and in one case a curb bit. Now Hellenistic writers clearly state that bits were unknown to Indians, presumably at the time of Alexander. >>> Arrian's writing on horse bits was given by Prof. Witzel. Even if the small book by Arrian does not tell us of 'bits', it just may mean that he missed the 'bits'. Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------------------------------- On 12 Feb 1997, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: Several weeks back, there was a query about claims of difficulty in breeding, in India, horses for cavalry. It seems to me that books written during the last century would be better, as cavalry was more important in those days. I was able to locate three reports on horses of India, two of which I was able to obtain. The bibliographic details are below. I do not wish to take up space summarizing what is in these books. I just wish to note that the authors do not see the climate as a disadvantage in breeding horses of cavalry. The only comment on the influence of climate is the Bergmann's Rule: animals of hotter and drier areas tend to be smaller/lighter. This applies not just to Indian breeds, but also to Arabians. Henry Shakespear, who as commander of an irregular cavalry regiment stationed at Nagpur must have been familiar with the Decan breed(s?), does not consider the small size to be a drawback. ------------------------- AUTHOR Shakespear, Henry. TITLE The wild sports of India: with remarks on the breeding and rearing of horses, and the formation of light irregular cavalry. By Captain Henry Shakespear. PUBLISH INFO Boston, Ticknor and Fields, 1860. DESCRIPT'N viii, 283 p. 18 cm. SUBJECTS Sports -- India. Horses -- Breeding -- India. ------------- AUTHOR Gilbey, Walter, Sir, 1831-1914. TITLE Horse-breeding in England and India, and army horses abroad. EDITION 2d ed. PUBLISH INFO London, Vinton & Co., 1906. DESCRIPT'N v, 65 p. plates. 22 cm. NOTE Bibliographical footnotes. SUBJECTS Horses. ------------- AUTHOR: India. Horse and Mule Breeding Commission. TITLE: Report of the Horse and Mule Breeding Commission assembled under the orders of the government of India, 1900-1901. PLACE: [London : PUBLISHER: s. n., YEAR: 1901 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 64 p. : ill. ; 34 cm. SUBJECT: India. -- Army. -- Remount service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 9 17:46:50 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 18:46:50 +0100 Subject: SV: "Conceptional Purging of Indology" Message-ID: <161227043461.23782.10738056992599807213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srinivas Tilak wrote: > > In his preface to volume IX of The Study of Indian History and > Culture, entitled "Dharma and Vedic Foundations," general editor > S.D.Kulkarni refers to an article "Conceptional Purging of Indology" by > Y.S.Yerkuntwar, a renowned traditional Indologist and scholar from > Nagpur. The article appeared in the June and August, 1975 issues of > Hindutva, a journal published from Varanasi. > If any member of Indology list is familiar with this article I > would request him/her to put the essence of Yerkuntwar's arguments on > the Indology list so that academics can have a debate on how > a traditional rationalist and scholar perceived Indology; what according > to him, needs to be purged from Indology as it generally understood by > scholars etc. I second this motion, and I would be very grateful to anyone who could tell me where these issues of the Hindutva journal can be found. A reference to a library would enable me to order a copy through the University library service here in Oslo. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 10 05:28:22 1998 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 00:28:22 -0500 Subject: maitri upanishad In-Reply-To: <199812092359.SAA09366@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227043467.23782.4354891371464914808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replying to a digest... Some mailer may not show the thread correctly. Anyways, I thought J. A. B. Buitenen, _The Maitraaya.niiya Upani.sad, A Critical Essay, with Text, Translation, and Commentary_, Hague 1962 was the definite source on the Maitri/Maitreya/Maitraaya.na/Maitraaya.nii/Maitraaya.niiya Upani.sad :-) Should be avialable somewhere, I think. -- kengo From latamahesh at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 10 08:39:36 1998 From: latamahesh at HOTMAIL.COM (lata deokar) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 00:39:36 -0800 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227043471.23782.6080862706361879612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know about the English translation of Situ's commentary on Sum - Chu - Pa and Tag - Jug - Pa and also that of A lecture on SITU SUM - TAG ? Lata. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 10 13:01:18 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 05:01:18 -0800 Subject: Horse breeding in India Message-ID: <161227043475.23782.11998645214353531016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote in Indology: >>But can we really say that *the horse has always been imported* while >>since the Vedic period Sanskrit literature constantly mentions horse-breeding >>in the North-West of the subcontinent? On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Vidyanatha Rao replied: <<< In Jan/Feb 97, there was a discussion in this list about the alleged difficulty of breeding horses in India. In spite of confident assertions of such difficulty, attributed to the climate, horse-breeding (of local breeds, naturally, not of thorough-breds:-) was alive and well in India, including Central India and parts of the peninsula, as attested by one of the references I gave. >>> Dr. V. Rao's references are by the British in colonial days. British had less problems in horse breeding due to advances in vetenary sciences, etc., But Indians always had trouble breeding horses. Arab settlers on the Kerala coast sold horses brought by sea. Pre-3rd century AD Pattin2appAlai tells: "nIrin2 vanta nimir parip puraviyum" - horses that came via the sea waters. In Sangam classical texts, princes have horses and people were awed by their speed. Major portion MaanikkavAcakar (9th century) revolves around going to the West coast to purchase horses for the Pandyan army. Peacocks are SubrahmaNya-Murukan's vAhana. After Muslims were employed as horse trainers and riders in Vijayanagar armies, ArunagirinAthar calls Murukan as the Peacock riding Rahout in 14th century (mayil ERu rAvuttan2 - tiruppukaz). Portugese residents at Vijayanagar have kept accounts of the number of horses bought every year. I have seen some references on this horse trade across the sea. My books, notes are in the boxes, I will post the references some day. Definitely, India has trouble breeding horses until the British arrived. Any data on horse imports in Mauryan, Gupta and Moghul periods? Regards, N. Ganesan Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: >By the way, I think that the participants in the debate on the spread of >horses in India quite undeservedly ignored the archeological materials >of the *megalithic* culture which at some sites (e.g. on the territory >of historical Vidarbha) can be dated now as early as the beginning of >the I mill. BC. Here we can speak really in terms of MASS material, >consisting of bone remains and innumerable articles of metal harness. On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Vidyanatha Rao replied: [...] <<< The ``articles of metal harness'' seem to be, for the most part, bits, often snaffle bits, and in one case a curb bit. Now Hellenistic writers clearly state that bits were unknown to Indians, presumably at the time of Alexander. >>> Arrian's writing on horse bits was given by Prof. Witzel. Even if the small book by Arrian does not tell us of 'bits', it just may mean that he missed the 'bits'. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 10 13:02:18 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 05:02:18 -0800 Subject: Horse breeding in India Message-ID: <161227043479.23782.15444456923812464033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --------------------------------------------------------------------- On 12 Feb 1997, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: Several weeks back, there was a query about claims of difficulty in breeding, in India, horses for cavalry. It seems to me that books written during the last century would be better, as cavalry was more important in those days. I was able to locate three reports on horses of India, two of which I was able to obtain. The bibliographic details are below. I do not wish to take up space summarizing what is in these books. I just wish to note that the authors do not see the climate as a disadvantage in breeding horses of cavalry. The only comment on the influence of climate is the Bergmann's Rule: animals of hotter and drier areas tend to be smaller/lighter. This applies not just to Indian breeds, but also to Arabians. Henry Shakespear, who as commander of an irregular cavalry regiment stationed at Nagpur must have been familiar with the Decan breed(s?), does not consider the small size to be a drawback. ------------------------- AUTHOR Shakespear, Henry. TITLE The wild sports of India: with remarks on the breeding and rearing of horses, and the formation of light irregular cavalry. By Captain Henry Shakespear. PUBLISH INFO Boston, Ticknor and Fields, 1860. DESCRIPT'N viii, 283 p. 18 cm. SUBJECTS Sports -- India. Horses -- Breeding -- India. ------------- AUTHOR Gilbey, Walter, Sir, 1831-1914. TITLE Horse-breeding in England and India, and army horses abroad. EDITION 2d ed. PUBLISH INFO London, Vinton & Co., 1906. DESCRIPT'N v, 65 p. plates. 22 cm. NOTE Bibliographical footnotes. SUBJECTS Horses. ------------- AUTHOR: India. Horse and Mule Breeding Commission. TITLE: Report of the Horse and Mule Breeding Commission assembled under the orders of the government of India, 1900-1901. PLACE: [London : PUBLISHER: s. n., YEAR: 1901 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 64 p. : ill. ; 34 cm. SUBJECT: India. -- Army. -- Remount service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Thu Dec 10 09:59:47 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 10:59:47 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <116644f0.366e131d@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227043473.23782.8197245155462536664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote >Several Tamil inscriptions have intriguing names of brahmins who received >royal grants. The names contain words meaning pot, bowl or urn. These are not >very rare occurrences either. For instance, along with droNa/tONa, we find >caTTi (DEDR 2306), tA_li (DEDR 3182), maNTai (DEDR 4682) all refer to >different type of earthern vessels. - cut - >We should note that Pallavas claimed themselves to be brahmin descendants of >droNa born in a bucket/trough. As a result one can assume many brahmins could >have had droNa/tONa in their names. But, we also have the form tONamaNTa >zarman ( Why would brahmins have words >referring to different kinds of earthern vessels in their names? - cut - >The epic droNa is of course similar to bhArgava rAma in >being born a brahmin but behaving as a kSatriya. I have in my earlier postings >pointed out the potter-priest-warrior connections. > Though kumbhayoni can be used as an argument in this case, the problem (at least for me) is that droNa - probably to be derived from dru/dAru, "wood" - means "wooden vessel" (or has this meaning changed in the Dravidian languages?), and therefore cannot directly be connected with pottery. Regards, Georg v. Simson From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Dec 10 08:54:05 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 13:54:05 +0500 Subject: maitri upanishad In-Reply-To: <19981210002822M.kharimot@postoffice.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227043469.23782.13768126412652494204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A Maitreya Upanishad of Samaveda has been translated by K.Narayanasvami Aiyar in 1914 in his "Thirty Minor Upanishads". He was a member of Theosophical Society, Madras and the book was marketed by Theosophical Publishing House, Adayar, Madras-8 regards, sarma. At 12:28 AM 12/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >Replying to a digest... Some mailer may not show the thread correctly. > >Anyways, > >I thought > >J. A. B. Buitenen, _The Maitraaya.niiya Upani.sad, A Critical Essay, >with Text, Translation, and Commentary_, Hague 1962 > >was the definite source on the >Maitri/Maitreya/Maitraaya.na/Maitraaya.nii/Maitraaya.niiya Upani.sad :-) > >Should be avialable somewhere, I think. > >-- >kengo > > From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Thu Dec 10 14:37:39 1998 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 15:37:39 +0100 Subject: Mahabharata (literal) translation in German In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043477.23782.64844839592853662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Could someone tell me if a German translation of the Mahabharata is available in print or on the web? Not in summary form (like the one published in Diederichs GR) nor the old summaries of Holtzmann/Winternitz, Bopp, Hertel or Porzig. I am also aware of the Mahabharata episodes (like Nala-Damayanti) available in German. What I am looking for is a literal translation of the sanskrit text (even partial) like Peterfalvi has done in French or Van Buitetenen in English. Thanks in advance for your help. Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Dec 10 23:42:54 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 18:42:54 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043483.23782.7602489545237158409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-12-10 18:01:24 EST, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: << Dro.na/dro.n_i might have lost its original connection with 'wood' quite early. Despite CDIAL 6641, where Pali don.i_ is explained as "wooden trough" - don.i_ seems to denote rather a certain type of vessels ("trough, vat, tub"). [Cf. The PTS Pali-English Dictionary, p. 331, where don.i_ "a (wooden) trough...] >> I think this is the case in Dravidian also. DEDR Appendix 45 (IA loans in Dravidian) lists Ta. ton2n2ai cup made of plantain or other leaf. Ma.donna cup made out of a leaf, for brahmans to drink pepper-water....Kuwi (F) dunnO, (Su.) dono id.; (Isr.) Tono cup-like container made of leaves/Turner, CDIAL, no. 6641, droNa- (e.g. H. donA, Mar. DoNA leaf-cup). Here the material is not wood. Clearly the inscriptions indicate that the author of the inscription considered kumbha and droNa were interchangeable. Can someone explain the accepted IE etymology of droNa? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From hart at POLBOX.COM Thu Dec 10 22:49:46 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 23:49:46 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043481.23782.6092734803482269792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:59 10.12.98 +0100, you wrote: >Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote >>Several Tamil inscriptions have intriguing names of brahmins who received >>royal grants. The names contain words meaning pot, bowl or urn. These are not >>very rare occurrences either. For instance, along with droNa/tONa, we find >>caTTi (DEDR 2306), tA_li (DEDR 3182), maNTai (DEDR 4682) all refer to >>different type of earthern vessels. >- cut - >>We should note that Pallavas claimed themselves to be brahmin descendants of >>droNa born in a bucket/trough. As a result one can assume many brahmins could >>have had droNa/tONa in their names. But, we also have the form tONamaNTa >>zarman (- cut - >> Why would brahmins have words >>referring to different kinds of earthern vessels in their names? >- cut - >>The epic droNa is of course similar to bhArgava rAma in >>being born a brahmin but behaving as a kSatriya. I have in my earlier postings >>pointed out the potter-priest-warrior connections. >> > Though kumbhayoni can be used as an argument in this case, the problem (at >least for me) is that droNa - probably to be derived from dru/dAru, "wood" >- means "wooden vessel" (or has this meaning changed in the Dravidian >languages?), and therefore cannot directly be connected with pottery. > >Regards, > >Georg v. Simson > > _________________________________________________________________________ A remark on Georg v. Simson posting and a question in connection with pots. Dro.na/dro.n_i might have lost its original connection with 'wood' quite early. Despite CDIAL 6641, where Pali don.i_ is explained as "wooden trough" - don.i_ seems to denote rather a certain type of vessels ("trough, vat, tub"). [Cf. The PTS Pali-English Dictionary, p. 331, where don.i_ "a (wooden) trough...] In order to be more specific about material out of which the don.i_ type vessels were made, one had then - at least in some cases - to resort to the use of attributive adjectives. One such case is when tela-don.i_ is attributed by a_yasa_, making it of course not "iron wooden oil trough" but simply "iron oil trough". It might be of possible interest that in the Mahaparinibbana-sutta [5.11; Sacred Books of the Buddhists, Vol. III, Pali Text Society 1995, pp. 155-156] don.i_ is mentioned in connection with death: "Then they place the body in an oil vessel of iron [ayasa_ya tela-don.iya_], and cover that close up [pat.ikujjitva_] with another oil vessel of iron. They then build a funeral pyre..., and burn [jha_penti] the body of the king of kings..." [In the footnote to ayasa_ya tela-don.iya_ the translator (T. Rhys Davids) says: "Ayas was originally used for bronze, and only later for iron also, and at last exclusively for iron. As kam.sa is already a common word for bronze in very early Buddhist Pali texts, I think a_yasa (not ayasa) would here mean 'of iron'..." And he goes on: "The whole process as described is not very intelligible; and one might suppose that ayasa after all had nothing to do with any metal, and was a technical term descriptive of some particular size or shape or colour of oil vessel. But it is frequently found in the MSS. when iron is clearly meant."] Body [s'ari_ra], (closed) vessel, and oil seem to form a triad. Or tetrad - if we add heat. Could it be equivalent to the triad: foetus [garbha]/(closed) vessel/(warm) liquid? Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland From HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Dec 11 03:49:26 1998 From: HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 03:49:26 +0000 Subject: Maitri/Maitreya/Maitraaya.na/Maitraaya.nii/Maitraaya.niiya Upani.sad :-) Message-ID: <161227043486.23782.5094934004516393412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology friends, Here is another list of sources for English translation of Maitri/Maitreya/Maitraaya.na/Maitraaya.nii/ Maitraaya.niiya Upani.sad :-) belonging to Krishna Yajurveda possessing a Samhita of 4 Kandas of 54 Prapatakas: 1 Robert Ernest Hume, Thirteen Principal Upanishads, Oxford University Press, 2nd Edn, 1993 pages 412 to 458 2 S Radhakrishnan, The Principal Upanishads, Harper Collins Publishers / Indus, 3rd Impression, 1996 pages 793 to 860 3 Paul Deussen (Translated to English by V M Bedekar & GB Palsuke) Motilal Banarasidaas, 1990 Vol 1, pages 327 to 386 4 E B Cowell The Maithri Or Maithrayaniya Upanishad English translation with the commentary of Ramathirtha, Watts, London, 1870, 291 pages (Bibilotheca Indica) 5 Vidyarnava, Srisa Chandra & Mohanlal Sandal, Maithri Upanioshad, the with notes & commentary, Panini Office, Allahabad, 1926, 155 pages (Sacred Books of Hindus, Vol 30, part 2) Sincerely, -Harihareswara Stockton, California ============================= From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 11 16:29:59 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 08:29:59 -0800 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043500.23782.2960119228064868402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In KaaraNDavyUhasUtra, is the word Potalaka as the residence of Avalokitezvara mentioned? Does SimhaladvIpa occur in KaaraNDavyUha? Does dakSiNApatha come there & Avalokita travels from there by vimAna to Jetavana near Benaras? If SimhaladvIpa occurs, I wonder are there any mahAyAna texts that mention SimhaladvIpa? Are there any Western language studies on KaaraNDavyUha? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Dec 11 15:56:11 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 10:56:11 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043498.23782.3542341781393162762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Simson, In a message dated 98-12-11 09:57:32 EST, you write: << This is the kumbha that later on (51.17) is given to the brahmin who in the Pali MPS is called doNa and in the Sanskrit version dhUmrasagotra. >> I would appreciate if you could give the traditional explanation of the name dhUmrasagotra. Also is this a common name for brahmins? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From gimello at U.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Dec 11 19:12:02 1998 From: gimello at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Robert M Gimello) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 12:12:02 -0700 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha In-Reply-To: <19981211162959.22883.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043505.23782.15744329127151614362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are some bibliographical notes on the Karandavyuha that may be of some use. (I have deliberately removed all diacriticals, Chinese characters, and special formatting for the sake of those recipients who may not have the right fonts or the capacity to received highly formatted texts). If anyone knows of other relevant sources on the Karandavyuha, I would be grateful if they could be posted as well. R. M. Gimello Univ. of Arizona --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Concering the Karandavyuha This important text -- transitional between Mahayana and early Tantra, and concerned chiefly with Avalokitesvara (its full title is Avalokitesvaraguhyakarandavyuha) -- survives in Sanskrit and in Chinese and Tibetan translations. In Sanskrit there are, in fact, two versions of the text, a prose original in Buddhist or "Hybrid" Sanskrit and a much later versified version in polished classical Sanskrit. The prose version survives in a Gilgit manuscript dating from the sixth century (very near the presumed time of the text's composition) and in some twenty Nepalese manuscripts, the earliest of which is no earlier than the twelfth century. It is probable that the verse version was composed sometime after the thirteenth century. For (poor) editions of the prose version see: Samasrami, Satyavrata, ed. "Karandavyuha." In The Hindu Commentator (Clacutta), vol. 5, 1873. Vaidya, P. L. ed. Karandavyuha. Buddhist Sanskrit Texts Series. Darbhanga: The Mithila Institute, 1961. There exists in manuscript, in the Bibliotheque Nationale (Fonds sanskrit no. 24), a complete French translation of the prose version done in 1837 by Eugene Burnouf. Burnouf also discussed the text in his epochal work, Introduction a l'histoire du Bouddhisme indien et le Lotus de la Bonne Loi, tr. du Sanskrit, 2d ed. (Paris: Adrien Maisonneuve, 1876), 197 [note: the first edition of Burnouf's work was published in 1844, by the Imprimerie Imperiale]. In the 1960's Marcelle Lalou and Constantin Regamey were working together on a new, critical edition of the Karandavyaha, but this seems not to have been finished before these two outstanding scholars died (Lalou in 1971, Regamey in 1982). On the versified version of the text see: Giuseppe Tucci, "La redazione poetica del Karandavyuha," Atti della Reale Accademia delle Scienze di Torino, Classe di Scienza Morali, Storiche e Filologiche 58 (1922-1923): 271 (605)-296 (630). Prabhas Chandra Majumder, "The Karanda Vyuha: The Metrical Version," Indian Historical Quarterly 24, no. 1 (1948): 293-299. The Chinese translation was done in 983 by T'ien-hsi-tsai (Devasanti ?) Ta-sheng chuan-yen pao-wang ching, 4 fascicles (Taisho # 1050, vol. 20, pp. 47a-64a). We seem to know neither who did the Tibetan translation hpags-pa za-ma-tog bkod-pa shes-bya-ba theg-pa chen-po'i mdo (Otani # 784, Tohoku # 116), nor when it was done. [See the entry on T'ien-hsi-tsai's translation in Ono Gemmyo's bibliographical encyclopedia, Bussho kaisetsu daijiten 7, 312b-313a (in Japanese).] Further Secondary Literature: Mallmann, Marie-Therese de. Introduction a l'Etude d'Avalokitecvara, preface de Paul Mus, dessins de Jeannine Auboyer. Annales du Musee Guimet, Bibliotheque d'Etudes, tome cinquante-septieme. Paris: Civilisations du Sud, 1948. Lalou, Marcelle. "A Tun-huang Prelude to the Karandavyuha." Indian Historical Quarterly 14 (1938): 198-200. Regamey, Constantin (Konstanty). "Randbemerkungen zur Sprache und Textuberlieferung des Karandavyuha." In Asiatica: Festschrift Friedrich Weller zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet von seinen Freunden, Kollegen und Schulern, 514-527. Leipzig: O. Harrasowitz, 1954. Regamey, Constantin (Konstanty). "Lexicological Gleanings from the Karandavyuha." Indian Linguistics, Chatteriji Jubilee Volume 16 (1955): 1-11. Regamey, Constantin (Konstanty). "Le psuedo-hapax ratikara et la lampe qui rit dans le Sutra des Ogresses bouddhiques." Etudes asiatiques 18-19 (1965): 175-206. Regamey, Constantin (Konstanty). "Motifs vichnouites et saivaites dans le Karandavyuha." In Etudes tibetaines dediees a la memoire de Marcelle Lalou, edited by Ariane Macdonald, 411-431. Paris: Librairie d'Amerique et d'Orient - Adrien Maisonneuve, 1971. Thomas, E. J., editor and translator. The Perfection of Wisdom: the Career of the Predestined Buddhas, A Selection of Mahayana Scriptures Translated from the Sanskrit. Wisdom of the East Series. London: John Murray, 1952. [Chapters XV & XVI in this anthology are translations of brief excerpts from the Karandavyuha.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > In KaaraNDavyUhasUtra, is the word Potalaka as the > residence of Avalokitezvara mentioned? > > Does SimhaladvIpa occur in KaaraNDavyUha? > Does dakSiNApatha come there & Avalokita > travels from there by vimAna to Jetavana > near Benaras? > > If SimhaladvIpa occurs, I wonder are there > any mahAyAna texts that mention SimhaladvIpa? > > Are there any Western language studies on > KaaraNDavyUha? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 11 21:17:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 13:17:24 -0800 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043507.23782.4801656899250782168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dr. Gimello for responding to my query. I enjoy reading your 'Changing Shang-ying on Wu-tai Shan' (1992). I know Chun-fang Yu at Rutgers. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 11 21:45:21 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 13:45:21 -0800 Subject: GaNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043510.23782.16772212803248549098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, Prof. Gimello Do you have a bibliography on GaNDavyUha similar to the one you gave on KaaraNDavyUha? Material from South Indian history and from Tamil sangam poetry of about 2500 songs (about 20 centuries old) help to identify about 9 places where Sudhana, the merchant boy meets KalyaaNamitras. I will write about them. (So far, it has not been done this way I think). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Dec 11 12:59:36 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 13:59:36 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210234946.007a4530@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227043491.23782.6621215953446473773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:49 10.12.98 +0100, you wrote: >At 10:59 10.12.98 +0100, you wrote: >>Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote >>>Several Tamil inscriptions have intriguing names of brahmins who received >>>royal grants. The names contain words meaning pot, bowl or urn. These are >not >>>very rare occurrences either. For instance, along with droNa/tONa, we find >>>caTTi (DEDR 2306), tA_li (DEDR 3182), maNTai (DEDR 4682) all refer to >>>different type of earthern vessels. >>- cut - >>>We should note that Pallavas claimed themselves to be brahmin descendants of >>>droNa born in a bucket/trough. As a result one can assume many brahmins >could >>>have had droNa/tONa in their names. But, we also have the form tONamaNTa >>>zarman (>- cut - >>> Why would brahmins have words >>>referring to different kinds of earthern vessels in their names? >>- cut - >>>The epic droNa is of course similar to bhArgava rAma in >>>being born a brahmin but behaving as a kSatriya. I have in my earlier >postings >>>pointed out the potter-priest-warrior connections. >>> >> Though kumbhayoni can be used as an argument in this case, the problem (at >>least for me) is that droNa - probably to be derived from dru/dAru, "wood" >>- means "wooden vessel" (or has this meaning changed in the Dravidian >>languages?), and therefore cannot directly be connected with pottery. >> >>Regards, >> >>Georg v. Simson >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >A remark on Georg v. Simson posting and a question in connection with pots. > >Dro.na/dro.n_i might have lost its original connection with 'wood' quite >early. > >Despite CDIAL 6641, where Pali don.i_ is explained as "wooden trough" - >don.i_ seems to denote rather a certain type of vessels ("trough, vat, >tub"). [Cf. The PTS Pali-English Dictionary, p. 331, where don.i_ "a >(wooden) trough...] > >In order to be more specific about material out of which the don.i_ type >vessels were made, one had then - at least in some cases - to resort to the >use of attributive adjectives. > >One such case is when tela-don.i_ is attributed by a_yasa_, making it of >course not "iron wooden oil trough" but simply "iron oil trough". > >It might be of possible interest that in the Mahaparinibbana-sutta [5.11; >Sacred Books of the Buddhists, Vol. III, Pali Text Society 1995, pp. >155-156] don.i_ is mentioned in connection with death: > >"Then they place the body in an oil vessel of iron [ayasa_ya >tela-don.iya_], and cover that close up [pat.ikujjitva_] with another oil >vessel of iron. They then build a funeral pyre..., and burn [jha_penti] the >body of the king of kings..." > >[In the footnote to ayasa_ya tela-don.iya_ the translator (T. Rhys Davids) >says: "Ayas was originally used for bronze, and only later for iron also, >and at last exclusively for iron. As kam.sa is already a common word for >bronze in very early Buddhist Pali texts, I think a_yasa (not ayasa) would >here mean 'of iron'..." And he goes on: "The whole process as described is >not very intelligible; and one might suppose that ayasa after all had >nothing to do with any metal, and was a technical term descriptive of some >particular size or shape or colour of oil vessel. But it is frequently >found in the MSS. when iron is clearly meant."] > >Body [s'ari_ra], (closed) vessel, and oil seem to form a triad. Or tetrad - >if we add heat. > >Could it be equivalent to the triad: foetus [garbha]/(closed) vessel/(warm) >liquid? > > >Regards, > >Artur Karp > >University of Warsaw >Poland > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Let me add that the division of the remains of the Buddha was performed by a brahman named Don.a. And he himself obtains "the vessel" [i.e. kumbha]. MPS 6.25: "Don.o bra_hman.o tesam. sam.gha_nam. gan.a_nam. pat.issutva_ Bhagavato sari_ra_ni at.t.hadha_ samam. suvibhattam. vibhajitva_ te sam.ghe gan.e etad avoca: 'Imam. me bhonto kumbham. dadantu, aham. pi kumbhassa thu_pan~ mahan~ ca karissa_mi_ti'. Adam.su kho te Don.assa bra_hman.assa kumbham.". Translated by T. Rhys Davids as: "...said Don.a the brahmin, in assent to the assembled brethren. And he divided the remains of the Exalted One equally into eight parts, with fair division. And he said to them: - 'Give me, sirs, this vessel, and I will set up over it a sacred cairn, and in its honour will I establish a feast.' And they gave the vessel to Don.a the brahmin." Was the vessel [kumbha] given to Don.a the same with the iron oil trough [a_yasa_ tela-don.i_], in which the body of the Buddha was placed prior to its cremation? Or an urn to which the relics were transferred after cremation and prior to their division by Don.a? (Thus, it seems, Buddhaghosa; but the text of the MPS does not say anything on the matter.) Artur Karp From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Dec 11 14:52:10 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 15:52:10 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981211135936.007a5b20@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227043496.23782.2085126795974555414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote (I quote just the last part of your last message): >Was the vessel [kumbha] given to Don.a the same with the iron oil trough >[a_yasa_ tela-don.i_], in which the body of the Buddha was placed prior to >its cremation? > >Or an urn to which the relics were transferred after cremation and prior to >their division by Don.a? (Thus, it seems, Buddhaghosa; but the text of the >MPS does not say anything on the matter.) The Sanskrit MahAparinirvANasUtra (with its Tibetan and Chinese parallels), ed. E. Waldschmidt, Berlin 1950-51, p. 410 (Vorgang 46.7) is quite clear on this point: First mentioning the "tailapUrNA ayodroNI" into which the body of the king/Buddha is laid, and a second "ayodroNI" which is used as a cover, the text says that the body is burnt and, thereafter, the bones (asthIni) are put in a golden urn: "sauvarNa kumbha". This is the kumbha that later on (51.17) is given to the brahmin who in the Pali MPS is called doNa and in the Sanskrit version dhUmrasagotra. Georg v. Simson From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 12 01:25:28 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 17:25:28 -0800 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043514.23782.5680761107516100936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Concering the Karandavyuha *This important text -- transitional between Mahayana and early *Tantra, and concerned chiefly with Avalokitesvara. Is it at the fountainhead of Buddhist Tantra literature, because Avalokitesvara's important mantra - Om maNi padme hUm - is explained there. maNi refers to linga of 'Saivism and padma is yoni (A. Francke, The meaning of Om maNi padme hUm formula, JRAS, 1915, 0. 397-404.) Does the many Indus civilization seals showing bulls, the way bulls are portrayed have anything to do with later linga worship? The male power of bulls is shown in Indus seals, bull baiting is portrayed there with a complete absence of cows in Indus seals. Nandin becomes the vaahana of 'Siva in later Hinduism. On the other side, cow symbolism permeates Vedic texts with near absence of bulls. Any work on Indus religion? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Dec 11 16:52:59 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 17:52:59 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043502.23782.323309482733442597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Palaniappan, I am afraid there is no "traditional explanation" of the name dhUmrasagotra. Andre Bareau discusses the episode in detail in his book RECHERCHES SUR LA BIOGRAPHIE DU BUDDHA ...II: LES DERNIERS MOIS, LE PARINIRVANA ET LES FUNERAILLES, Vol. II (Paris 1971), pp. 288 ff. He also discusses the Chinese versions of the name (my translations of Bareau's French: "Lineage of the Perfumes" referring possibly to a Sanskrit name dhUpagotra, and "Lineage of Smoke") and is of the opinion that these names are invented to connect this brahmin in one way or the other with the smoke of the funeral pile or with the incense offered to the relics. They are certainly not "common names for brahmins", but ad hoc inventions (dhUmra meaning "smoky", from dhUma, "smoke"). Bareau mentions also the possibility that the name droNa might be invented to allude to the urn which this brahmin receives, but he, too, sees the problem that the urn is called kumbha and that droNa "at least in principle" should mean "a wooden vessel". By the way, droNa appears also in the Sanskrit version, namely as the name of the village where the brahmin comes from. I am inclined to see a connection of droNa (also of the droNa of the Mahabharata) with fire, and I favour, therefore, the derivation from dru/dAru "wood" (proposed in Mayrhofer's Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindischen. But he does not seem do be quite sure!). An article of mine where I touch the subject in passing is in print. Regards G.v.Simson >Dear Dr. Simson, > >In a message dated 98-12-11 09:57:32 EST, you write: > ><< This is the kumbha that later on > (51.17) is given to the brahmin who in the Pali MPS is called doNa and in > the Sanskrit version dhUmrasagotra. >> > >I would appreciate if you could give the traditional explanation of the name >dhUmrasagotra. Also is this a common name for brahmins? Thanks in advance. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Dec 11 21:33:40 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 22:33:40 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043512.23782.1499024991842687176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:52 11.12.98 +0100, Georg v. Simson wrote: >The Sanskrit MahAparinirvANasUtra (with its Tibetan and Chinese parallels), >ed. E. Waldschmidt, Berlin 1950-51, p. 410 (Vorgang 46.7) is quite clear on >this point: >First mentioning the "tailapUrNA ayodroNI" into which the body of the >king/Buddha is laid, and a second "ayodroNI" which is used as a cover, the >text says that the body is burnt and, thereafter, the bones (asthIni) are >put in a golden urn: "sauvarNa kumbha". This is the kumbha that later on >(51.17) is given to the brahmin who in the Pali MPS is called doNa and in >the Sanskrit version dhUmrasagotra. > >Georg v. Simson > > ________________________________________________________________ Dear Dr. Simson, Thank you very much for your answer. Unfortunately, at this moment I cannot consult Waldschmidt's book - a couple of days ago I found out that our copy had been lent out. I would be then very grateful, if you would kindly answer several more questions. There are also questions directed to the participants of the Indology list in general. 1) which verb is used to describe the process of placing the body of the Buddha in the "iron trough filled with oil" [tailapUrNA ayodroNI]? Pali MPS uses pakkhipitvA ("having placed in"), which may be suggestive of laying the body down in ayodroNI horizontally. But Dr. Karol Piasecki from this University (a friendly anthropologist with considerable experience in archeology) tells me, that the bone-relics enumerated by Buddhaghosa in his commentary (The Sumangala-Vilasini, Buddhaghosa's Commentary on the Digha-Nikaya, Part II, published by PTS, London 1971, p. 604) suggest cremation of a body that is placed on the pyre in sitting position. They all belong to the upper part of the body: four (canine) teeth, two collar bones and the upper part of the cranium [cattaso dAThA, dve akkhakA uNhIsan ti]. General question: Is there any evidence in the older strata of the Buddhist tradition pointing to the custom of cremating bodies in sitting position? Iconographic evidence? 2) which verb is used to describe the process of the cremation of the Buddha's body? Pali MPS uses jhApenti, which is translated as: "they burn". However, considering the configuration described in the MPS, would oil in the closed ayodroNI burn or boil? Cf. The PTS Pali-English Dictionary, where jhApeti explained as "to set fire to, to burn", but also "to cook". My brother, who is a chemical engineer, tells me that with the body placed in an iron vessel which is in turn covered by another iron vessel and with the wood-fire underneath, the oil inside the lower vessel would boil and not burn, and even if the oil inside ignited, it would only burn as long as it would have oxygen, and then it would return to boiling. General question: Is it possible, that the process described in the MPS wasn't meant to burn the body, but rather to separate the softer parts from the skeleton? Is there any evidence for such funeral practice in the Indian tradition? Or is the story of the two iron vessels just one more example of mythological imagination? 3) how many bone-relics [asthIni] were left after the cremation? Buddhaghosa says seven (and some smaller remnants). The Pali MPS insists that brahmin DoNa divided the relics into eight parts. General question: Could that mean that what he was dividing was sarIraTThaka - "the [consisting of eight parts] bony framework of the body"? 4) is there any additional information on who was this mysterious brahmin named DoNa/DhUmrasagotra? General question: is there any evidence in the Indian tradition of any group of brahmins performing the task of handling, dividing and apportioning human bone(-relic)s? With regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland P.S. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Sat Dec 12 11:26:34 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 98 12:26:34 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981211223340.007b9670@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227043516.23782.3930214839763800271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: >Dear Dr. Simson, > >Thank you very much for your answer. Unfortunately, at this moment I cannot >consult Waldschmidt's book - a couple of days ago I found out that our copy >had been lent out. I would be then very grateful, if you would kindly >answer several more questions. There are also questions directed to the >participants of the Indology list in general. > >1) which verb is used to describe the process of placing the body of the >Buddha in the "iron trough filled with oil" [tailapUrNA ayodroNI]? The Sanskrit text (which is, by the way, rather fragmentary) uses n(i)kSip(ya) (46.7) and there is nothing that would suggest a sitting position of the body on the funeral pile. >Pali MPS uses pakkhipitvA ("having placed in"), which may be suggestive of >laying the body down in ayodroNI horizontally. But Dr. Karol Piasecki from >this University (a friendly anthropologist with considerable experience in >archeology) tells me, that the bone-relics enumerated by Buddhaghosa in > his >commentary (The Sumangala-Vilasini, Buddhaghosa's Commentary on the >Digha-Nikaya, Part II, published by PTS, London 1971, p. 604) suggest >cremation of a body that is placed on the pyre in sitting position. They >all belong to the upper part of the body: four (canine) teeth, two collar >bones and the upper part of the cranium [cattaso dAThA, dve akkhakA > uNhIsan ti]. > >General question: Is there any evidence in the older strata of the Buddhist >tradition pointing to the custom of cremating bodies in sitting position? >Iconographic evidence? > > >2) which verb is used to describe the process of the cremation of the >Buddha's body? The Sanskrit text says: ... citAM citvA dhyApyate, which is just a resanskritisation of the Pali verb jhApenti which you quote in the following. Subject of the sentence seems to be "rAjnaz cakravartinaH kAyo", mentioned in the beginning of the passage, and then the Sanskrit text would say the same as the Pali text, namely that the body of the king/Buddha is burnt. But, as you point out in the following, it does not seem likely that the body could be burnt to ashes if it was put in an iron vessel filled with oil and covered by an other iron vessel! >Pali MPS uses jhApenti, which is translated as: "they burn". However, >considering the configuration described in the MPS, would oil in the closed >ayodroNI burn or boil? Cf. The PTS Pali-English Dictionary, where jhApeti >explained as "to set fire to, to burn", but also "to cook". My brother, who >is a chemical engineer, tells me that with the body placed in an iron >vessel which is in turn covered by another iron vessel and with the >wood-fire underneath, the oil inside the lower vessel would boil and not >burn, and even if the oil inside ignited, it would only burn as long as it >would have oxygen, and then it would return to boiling. >General question: Is it possible, that the process described in the MPS >wasn't meant to burn the body, but rather to separate the softer parts from >the skeleton? I find this idea very tempting, and I think you will find parallels in the anthropological literature. >Is there any evidence for such funeral practice in the Indian >tradition? Or is the story of the two iron vessels just one more example of >mythological imagination? > I can't answer this question. The whole episode may be a blend of real customs and mythological imagination. >3) how many bone-relics [asthIni] were left after the cremation? > >Buddhaghosa says seven (and some smaller remnants). The Pali MPS insists >that brahmin DoNa divided the relics into eight parts. In the Sanskrit MPS (51.2,6; 51.8), too, the bones are divided into eight parts (but the text has to be reconstructed here after the Tibetan Vinaya parallel). >General question: Could that mean that what he was dividing was >sarIraTThaka - "the [consisting of eight parts] bony framework of the body"? An interesting idea. But it may also be (and this is, as far as I remember, Bareau's explanation) that the tradition happened to know about eight zarIrastUpas. As the story goes, the relics are divided into eight parts for political reasons. Regards G.v.Simson From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Sat Dec 12 21:05:59 1998 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 98 15:05:59 -0600 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha In-Reply-To: <19981212012529.15104.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043518.23782.4263710059213801613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isn't there a more recent study that explains maNipadme as the vocative of a feminine maNipadmA (as the name of a goddess)?--"O jewel-lotus goddess!" I cannot recall the reference. > > Is it at the fountainhead of Buddhist Tantra literature, >because Avalokitesvara's important mantra - Om maNi padme hUm - >is explained there. maNi refers to linga of 'Saivism and >padma is yoni (A. Francke, The meaning of Om maNi padme hUm >formula, JRAS, 1915, 0. 397-404.) Burt Thorp English Department University of North Dakota Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 13 02:38:05 1998 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 98 21:38:05 -0500 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha In-Reply-To: <19981212012529.15104.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043524.23782.11864927447819877799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please see now: Adelheid METTE, Die Gilgitfragmente des KAraNDavyUha. Indica et Tibetica 29 (Swisttal-Odendorf: Indica et Tibetica Verlag, 1997). ISBN 3923776292. On the dhAraNI, see Donald S. Lopz, Prisoners of Shangri-La (U of Chiacgo Press, 1998) chapter 4: "The Spell," in which the most recent studies are referred to, such as those of Pieter Verhagen. See especially p. 131. Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 12 21:41:35 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 98 21:41:35 +0000 Subject: thuggees? In-Reply-To: <199812021351.OAA13184@studserv.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227043520.23782.7918101741066296364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 11 Jun 1904, Jan Seifert wrote: > i?m looking for information about the thugs (thuggees). It doesn't deal with the Thugs, but is relevant and certainly very interesting (and illustrated!). Chapter 8 is "Criminal tribes and classes". George MacMunn, _The underworld of India_ (London: Jarrolds, 1933). All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Dec 13 00:49:01 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 98 00:49:01 +0000 Subject: thuggees? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043522.23782.13737272721724364752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, I wrote: > It doesn't deal with the Thugs, but is relevant and certainly very > interesting (and illustrated!). Chapter 8 is "Criminal tribes and > classes". > > George MacMunn, _The underworld of India_ (London: Jarrolds, 1933). A closer look reveals that MacMunn does indeed deal with "The Appalling Story of Thuggism" (p.211-18 in the chapter "Darkest India"). This section just isn't referred to in the index. The writers on Thuggee mentioned by MacMunn include Dr Sherwood, in the _Literary Journal_ of Madras, 1816; Meadows Taylor, _Confessions of a Thug_; B. A. Stewart (a note in the above book?) Captain (Col.) Sleeman; Best, DW From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Dec 14 04:36:46 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 98 23:36:46 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043527.23782.18138489788202459205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-12-13 18:27:26 EST, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: << As far as the brahmins are concerned, their hierarchy seems to rest on the opposition between being uninvolved or involved in the handling and division of the relics. >> This is a very interesting question. This seems to be a case of early entrants to brahminhood discriminating against later entrants/aspirants. Consider the following. In a message dated 98-12-11 11:56:55 EST, Dr. G. Simson wrote: << I am afraid there is no "traditional explanation" of the name dhUmrasagotra. Andre Bareau discusses the episode in detail in his book RECHERCHES SUR LA BIOGRAPHIE DU BUDDHA ...II: LES DERNIERS MOIS, LE PARINIRVANA ET LES FUNERAILLES, Vol. II (Paris 1971), pp. 288 ff. He also discusses the Chinese versions of the name (my translations of Bareau's French: "Lineage of the Perfumes" referring possibly to a Sanskrit name dhUpagotra, and "Lineage of Smoke") and is of the opinion that these names are invented to connect this brahmin in one way or the other with the smoke of the funeral pile or with the incense offered to the relics. They are certainly not "common names for brahmins", but ad hoc inventions (dhUmra meaning "smoky", from dhUma, "smoke"). >> In a posting entitled "Smoking, seasoning, and cooking in Dravidian" on May 31, 1998, I discussed the meaning of Dravidian word "kuy". I am showing a portion of that below. "?..One set of meanings given for "kuy" by Tamil Lexicon is "burnt odors, incense, odorous smoke". In fact, the original meaning of "kuy" is embedded in the word "kuyin" (DEDR 1765) meaning "cloud". A comparison of the word "kuyin" meaning "cloud" and the lines "kurUuk kuyppukai mazai magkulin2 parantu?" indicates that the original meaning of the root "kuy" is also "to smoke" same as "pukai". That the basic meaning of "kuy" is smoking is also indicated by related words in other Dravidian languages. The recent finding that the alternation of radical u>o is possible even without the presence of any derivative vowel "a" (See DEDR 4281 Ta. puy, poy - to be pulled out), allows us to link Tamil "kuy" with central and north Dravidian words such as the following. DEDR 2226 KonDa gOyi smoke (of kitchen). Pe. koy smoke; kOd- (kOtt-) to smoke (intr.); kOt- (kOtt-) id. (trans.), burn incense. ?Pa. gUJ- to smoke; gUJi, gUJjkud smoke. ? Go. (W. Ph.) kusso smoke; (SR. Ch. Mu.) kosso, (Mu. Ma.) kosoy, (G.) kosoyi soot; (Tr.) kossO soot on bottom of cooking-pot (Voc. 954). ?Kui kuhula smoke. Although DEDR does not show them, Kurukh kuhkuhrnA meaning "to rise up in clouds (said only of smoke and dust)", kuhRa'Ana "to apply smoke to, to fumigate", kuilA "charcoal" (Source: An Oraon-English Dictionary); and Malto kuhe "mist fog" (Source: Malto-Hindi-English Dictionary) also seem to be related "to kuy". Based on the above analysis, I have come to believe that the word meaning smoke seems to form the basis for deriving one of the Dravidian words meaning potter, "kuyavan2" as one who makes/is associated with smoke. (DEDR 1762 lists Ta. kuyam, kuyavan2, and kO as cognates meaning potter.) Consider the following Classical Tamil poem. kalam cey kO E kalam cey kO E iruL tiNintan2n2a kurUu tiraL parUu pukai akal iru vicumpin2 Un2Rum cULai nan2am talai mUtUr kalam cey kO E aLiyai nI E ????. ??????????. ???????. neTumAvaLavan2 tEvar ulakam eytin2an2 Atalin2 an2n2On2 kavikkum kaN akal tAzi van2aital vETTan2ai Ayin2 en2aiyatUum iru nilam tikiri A peru malai maN A van2aital ollum O nin2akku E (puRanAn2Uru 228.1-15) Here, the poet asks a potter who is making the burial urn to inter the Chola king, "O potter (kO)! who makes the pot in the old town's tall kiln which raises darkness-concentrated smoke which spreads in the sky. You are to be pitied?Since neTumAvaLavan2 reached the world of the devas, if you desire to throw a wide urn to inter him, can you somehow do it with the wide world as the wheel and the big mountain as the lump of clay?" Another CT poem (akanAn2Uru 308.5) describes a country as one where the clouds covering the hills are like the smoke from the potter's kiln (kalam cuTu pukai). Certainly, the smoke from the potter's kiln was significant enough that the poets linked it with the clouds so readily. I was struck by the name dhUmrasagotra in the text Dr. Simson mentioned. It would almost seem to be a Sanskrit translation of the Dravidian word for potter and offer another clue to the transformation of potters into brahmins. In explaining the term kulAlikAmnAya for one of the Tantric traditions, J. A. Schoterman (The SaTsAhasra saMhitA, 1982, p.8) says, "In a rural community the presence of a potter is almost indispensable because of the product he manufactures, namely a pot. Besides as the producer of this important daily utensil the potter appears to have carried out "certain ritual tasks which may date from prehistoric urn burial and have augmented to make him virtually the priest to certain lower classes" (Kosambi 1977:21). Next to this the potter is credited with the invention of the clay-plaster in bone-setting (Kosambi 1977:22). All this makes it clear that the potter played a significant role in the socio-religious life of an Indian village community from very early times onwards. The pot manufactured by the potter is an important daily utensil, but next to this the pot is often regarded as DevI Herself or Her local manifestation?.During Tantric rituals and ceremonies DevI is born again in the pot for the duration of the ritual?.From the foregoing the relation of the potters with one of the AmnAyas becomes acceptable." Unfortunately, I do not have Schoterman's book. So I cannot give the Kosambi references. Even here, the brahmin may indeed have been considered to be a brahmin. But the name seems to betray his intended cultural origins. Also my research has shown that the past status of potters has been severely underestimated. The valuable Tamil epigraphical data reveal that they were the chief accountants of major orthodox brahminic temples in Tamilnadu such as the one at tiruvArUr. The ambiguity in brahmin-potter relationship brought out in the ghaTIkArasutta in majjhima-nikAya is also very interesting. (I. B. Horner's translations are given in quotes.) In this story, "in the village township of vebhaLiGga, the potter named ghaTIkAra was a supporter-the chief supporter-of the Lord Kassapa" and "a brahman youth named jotipAla was a friend - dear friend - of the potter ghaTIkAra." In the story, in his enthusiasm to encourage the brahmin to visit Lord Kassapa, the potter youth first "laid hold of the brahman youth by the waist-band" and spoke. Later he "having laid hold of the brahman youth by the hair - he had just performed an ablution of his head - spoke. Then it occurred to the brahmin that if the potter ghaTIkAra , being of lowly birth, should grab his hair after he had performed an ablution of the head, the intended visit must have been significant. The potter does not have any hesitation in touching the brahmin. The brahmin does not openly criticize the potter for touching him. It seems as though the social separation of brahmins from potters had not been completed at the time. The Mahabharata episode where the pANDavas disguised as brahmins staying in a potter's house also seems to reflect this. Compare this with the view of zankara (who comes after a millennium)who, in trying to prove that janazruti could not have been a zUdra, says that only persons of the same varNa can be mentioned together. He says, "For as a rule equals are mentioned together with equals." (Commentary on Vedanta Sutra 1.3.35) Another thing to note is that the personal names of both characters in ghaTIkArasutta seem to be nothing but descriptive of their castes (ghaTIkAra - maker of pots and jotipAla - protector, keeper of fire, i.e., brahmin). If a similar pattern were to be assumed in the MPS story, then the name dhUmrasagotra/doNa would indicate the ancestral calling of the brahmin which would have been that of a potter. I do not think the relationship between the potter scribes and brahmins of 13th century Tamilnadu was very different from the one we find in ghaTIkArasutta. The only thing is Tamil society has preserved the original high status of the potter for a much longer time than other parts of India. Can we say that, comparatively speaking, the Pali texts seem to be more descriptive of the real society at the time than the Sanskrit texts which seem to be more prescriptive of what an "ideal" society they wished for? Regards S. Palaniappan From hart at POLBOX.COM Sun Dec 13 23:19:57 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 00:19:57 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043525.23782.3694590119481212777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:26 12.12.98 +0100, Georg v. Simson wrote: >In the Sanskrit MPS (51.2,6; 51.8), too, the bones are divided into eight >parts (but the text has to be reconstructed here after the Tibetan Vinaya >parallel). > >>General question: Could that mean that what he was dividing was >>sarIraTThaka - "the [consisting of eight parts] bony framework of the body"? > >An interesting idea. But it may also be (and this is, as far as I remember, >Bareau's explanation) that the tradition happened to know about eight >zarIrastUpas. As the story goes, the relics are divided into eight parts for >political reasons. >Regards > >G.v.Simson > > ____________________________________________________________________ Dear Dr. Simson, Thank you for your patience in answering my questions. I do hope you would be able to withstand two more. One understands well, why AjAtasattu, the king of Magadha, and the six tribes (the Licchavis of VesAlI, the Sakyas of KApilavatthu, the Bulis of Allakappa, the Kolis of RAmagAma, the Mallas of PAvA and the Mallas of KusinArA) would want to possess the relics of the Buddha. However, one of the eight recipients of the relics does not seem to represent any power, and yet also he obtains the full share [bhAga] of the relics. He is a brahmin and he is either called VeThadIpaka, or he comes from a place named VeThadIpa. What is his name in the Sanskrit MPS? Does Bareau write anything about him? VeThadIpa is not present at the funeral ceremony. The message he sends to the Mallas of KusinArA to inform them about the validity of his claim doesn't contain any hint of humility. DoNa is his opposite. He is present at the funeral ceremony. Although he personally divides the relics into eight portions, he isn't entitled to a share in them. In order to obtain the urn he has to humbly ask for it. As they are entitled to 'primary relics'[bhAge], the king, the six tribes and the brahmin VeThadIpa seem to form a higher status group. The lower status group is entitled to only 'secondary relics' and is represented by the tribe of Moriyas of Pipphalivana, who as late-comers have to satisfy themselves with the ashes [angAram], and the brahmin DoNa who is given the empty urn [kumbha]. As seen from the text, the relative hierarchy of the tribes is based on the opposition between early and late entrants. As far as the brahmins are concerned, their hierarchy seems to rest on the opposition between being uninvolved or involved in the handling and division of the relics. It may well be that in order to get to know more about DoNa (and his type of brahminhood), we would have to know more about VeThadIpa. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 12:57:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 04:57:24 -0800 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043534.23782.17533757289497114385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:36:53 N. Ganesan wrote: >>> >>> Is it at the fountainhead of Buddhist Tantra literature, >>>because Avalokitesvara's important mantra - Om maNi padme hUm - >>>is explained there. maNi refers to linga of 'Saivism and >>>padma is yoni (A. Francke, The meaning of Om maNi padme hUm >>>formula, JRAS, 1915, 0. 397-404.) > B. Thorp wrote: >>Isn't there a more recent study that explains maNipadme as the >>vocative of a feminine maNipadmA (as the name of a goddess)? >>--"O jewel-lotus goddess!" I cannot recall the reference. KaaraNDavyUha is on the male deity, avalokitezvara. Why would Om maNi padme hUm occuring in K. exclusively refer to the female goddess and not the male deity at all? Post 14th century Chinese Buddhism transforms the male deity, avalokitezvara (the Hindu 'Siva in a Buddhist garb) into a female goddess, Guanyin. At that time maNipadmaa may refer to exclusively to a goddess. Is the paper working from late Chinese suutras of indegenous origin that have no sanskrit originals? Or, the Tibetan tantras may have an explanation. However, originally I would guess that it meant only mani+padma. Interested in this reference where maNipadmaa is a female divinity rather than a maNi-padma/linga-yoni combo. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 14:28:23 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 06:28:23 -0800 Subject: Backup tapes of Indology archives Message-ID: <161227043538.23782.12765383873650386366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. D. Wujastyk, It is great to have INDOLOGY. Thanks. Is there a procedure to back up all the Indology archives? It will be very valuable, say after 50 years, to check on many debates, references, themes, ideas, speculations etc., Also, In the Indology archives, there are lot of unreadable scribble emanating from the Microsoft Attachment problem. They can be scrapped to save computer space. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 15:19:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 07:19:20 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Murukan conference Website announcement Message-ID: <161227043539.23782.14433932204310871056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 14 December 1998 Madras Dear Murukan conference participant, We are pleased to inform you that the 16-page announcement/invitation for the Murukan Conference has been printed and is being posted this week. In the meantime, you may visit the newly-updated Conference Website where you will find the full conference schedule for all four days as well as the schedule for the Aru Padai Veedu coach tour 31 Dec to 4 Jan. If you do not have Internet access you may contact me and the announcement (7kb = 10 pages in size) may be sent to you by email. The Murukan Conference Website is located at this URL: http://XLweb.com/heritage/murukan/index.htm The conference schedule-announcement is found at this URL: http://XLweb.com/heritage/murukan/announce.htm If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us by e-mail. Looking forward to meeting you here later this month. Sincerely, Patrick Harrigan Secretary, Working Committee *********************************************** First Intl Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murukan December 28-31, 1998 at: Institute of Asian Studies Chemmancherry, Sholinganallur Madras 600 119 India Tel: (091)044-496-1662 Fax: (091)044-496-0959 E-mail: ias at xlweb.com Website: http://xlweb.com/heritage/index.htm ********************************************** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 15:27:06 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 07:27:06 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Murukan conference Message-ID: <161227043541.23782.10108633521175857770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly check the Conference Website and you will find that the speakers' list has been updated as of today. The list is found at this URL: http://XLweb.com/heritage/murukan/speakers/index.htm Everything here is running smoothly and on schedule. We look forward to seeing you here later this month. Sincerely, Patrick Harrigan Secretary, Working Committee P.S. Here is the schedule of the Aru Padai Veedu coach tour: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Arupataivitu Tour - Schedule 31st December 1998 Thursday 2.00 P.M. Departure from Chennai Conference venue 8.00 P.M. Arrival at Swami Malai, tour-cum-worship 9.30 P.M. Dinner courtesy of Swami Malai Devasthanam 10.00 P.M. Departure from Swami Malai (night bus journey) 1st January 1999 Friday 6.00 A.M. Arrival at Tiruchendur (Devasthanam hospitality) 8.00 A.M. Breakfast 9.00 A.M. Tour-cum-worship at Senthil Andavar Devasthanam 1.00 P.M. Lunch 4.00 P.M. Tour of shrines etc surrounding Devasthanam 9.00 P.M. Dinner 2nd January, Saturday 7.00 A.M. Breakfast 8.00 A.M. Departure from Tiruchendur 12.00 P.M. Arrival at Tirupparankundram 1.00 P.M. Lunch courtesy of Tirupparankundram Devasthanam 2.00 P.M. Departure from Tirupparankundram 5.30 P.M. Arrival at Palani, take Devasthanam accommodation 9.00 P.M. Dinner 3rd January, Sunday 7.00 A.M. Breakfast 8.00 A.M. Climb or take cog rail up Palani Malai 11.00 A.M. Visit Avinankudi Subrahmanya Devasthanam 12.30 P.M. Lunch 1.30 P.M. Departure from Palani 4.00 P.M. Reception in Salem 8.00 P.M. Arrival at Tiruttani, take Devasthanam accommodation 9.00 P.M. Dinner courtesy of Tiruttani Devasthanam 4th January, Monday 8.00 A.M. Breakfast 9.00 A.M. Climb steps and tour-cum-worship Tiruttani Devasthanam 12.30 P.M. Lunch courtesy of Devasthanam 1.30 P.M. Departure from Tiruttani 4.00 P.M. Arrival to Chennai *********************************************** First Intl Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murukan December 28-31, 1998 at: Institute of Asian Studies Chemmancherry, Sholinganallur Madras 600 119 India Tel: (091)044-496-1662 Fax: (091)044-496-0959 E-mail: ias at xlweb.com Website: http://xlweb.com/heritage/index.htm ********************************************** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 16:02:07 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 08:02:07 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Skanda-Murukan conference Message-ID: <161227043543.23782.14059785555360317307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * MADRAS HOSTS THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON SKANDA-MURUGAN Murugan and His cult come under the Magnifying Glass Question: What happens when you take a paradoxical child-god as subject and mix together one hundred and forty or so of his scholars and devotees from six continents for eight days of free-swinging discussions? Answer: Until December 1998, it never happened. But from 28 December onwards, the world of Kaumara (concerning Kumara, the young god) scholarship may never be the same. Scholars and devotees from all over the world will soon descend upon Chennai to meet and interact for the first time. For scholars and devotees alike, the event represents a watershed and ushers in a new millennium of serious interest in the child-god Skanda or Subrahmanya or Murugan as he is variously known in India and around the world. Complex Deity Since late Vedic times in the Sanskrit tradition and perhaps far earlier among proto-Dravidian and tribal peoples of the South, the vigorous and complex deity Skanda or Murugan has exerted a powerful influence upon Indian literature and religious thought. To this day, his cult commands the allegiance of millions of devotees in South India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and wherever there are expatriate Tamil communities. And not only Tamils, but millions of non-Tamils as well. The First International Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murugan will bring together for the first time scholars of various disciplines sharing a common interest in the composite Aryan-Dravidian god Skanda-Murugan. English-articulate devotees from India and other countries in the region will also give their presentations before the learned audience. Never before has such an international assemblage met to discuss, praise, criticise, analyse and humbly try to understand the workings of the cult of Skanda or Murugan as he is best known. Recognizing the pressing need for dialogue among scholars and devotees, early last year an international committee was formed with Tamil scholar-industrialist Dr. N. Mahalingam as its chairman. Dr. G. John Samuel, whose Institute of Asian Studies had already hosted an international Buddhist conference in Madras in 1992, offered to organize and host the event. No one imagined that the concept would generate such widespread interest. Never-ending Story "The god we know as Murugan the Tamizh Katavul is also known in North India as Skanda-Kumara or Karttikeya," says Dr. Samuel. "Sri Lankan Buddhists know him as Kataragama Deviyo, their most popular god." "Nowadays Murugan has so many foreign devotees also. In Malaysia many of his devotees are ethnic Chinese. Even Muslims pay respect to al-Khadir, as they call him." "Indeed, Murugan is a universal archetype who belongs to all peoples and not to Tamils only," says Samuel. Some 140 scholars and devotees from all over the world have been conducting research on a dazzling range of topics ranging from 'Murugan in the Indus Script' of four thousand years ago to 'The Never-ending Love Story of Valli & Murugan' and 'Islamic traditions of Kataragama'. There will also be exhibitions of paintings and books as well as live performances by outstanding singers and Bharata Natyam dance troupes. Video documentaries will be screened continuously. More than a seminar, it will be a scholarly and artistic extravaganza. "Simply to host so many delegates from twenty-one nations and to give them an opportunity to meet and present their research findings is a great achievement," says Conference Chairman Dr. N. Mahalingam, adding "It is also a great honour for everyone involved and for all the people of Tamil Nadu." Multi-media Ancient Tamil poetry describes Murugan as having been a tribal fertility god in remote prehistory. Over the centuries, he has evolved with the times and remains as popular today as he was two thousand years ago. It should not surprise one, therefore, to find that he and his cult continue to change, often in startling new ways. For instance, Murugan of late has entered the digital Age of Information even while enjoying a resurgence in his following at the grass-roots village level. For not only has Murugan long been featured in television documentaries but now he has Internet Web sites of his own (notably http://xlweb.com/heritage/skanda). Likewise, the first interactive CD-ROMs on Skanda-Murugan will debut detailing His legendary career, famous devotees and temples in text, picture, audio and video all in one package. Side-by-side with CD-ROM demonstrations there will be continuous showings of video documentaries in Tamil and English. Paintings will be on exhibition, as well as books about Murugan. Interest in the cult of Murugan is not confined to people of one religion alone, so Buddhists, Christians and Muslims as well as Hindus will be participating. The story of the ancient multi-faceted cult and the lessons it contains will be told as seen through the eyes of various communities. Conference observers will hear foreign scholars tell how Murugan is worshipped in such far-flung places as South Africa, Mauritius, Fiji, United Kingdom, Malaysia and Singapore. Foreign devotees from Australia, Europe and America will tell their stories, often with the help of colour slides and photos.The Conference will also host dramatic performances such as Murukan Tiruvilaiyatal in the Bharata Natyam genre. An international conference in Chennai bringing together Murukan scholars and bhaktas will be an unequaled opportunity for all parties to exchange findings and insights. Undoubtedly, the First International Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murukan will long be remembered as a watershed in the study of one of the world's great religious and literary traditions. * * * * * * * * * * * * * Patrick Harrigan has been studying the cult of Skanda-Murukan since 1971. The Murukan Conference Website URL is: http://xlweb.com/heritage/index.htm *********************************************** First Intl Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murukan December 28-31, 1998 at: Institute of Asian Studies Chemmancherry, Sholinganallur Madras 600 119 India Tel: (091)044-496-1662 Fax: (091)044-496-0959 E-mail: ias at xlweb.com Website: http://xlweb.com/heritage/index.htm ********************************************** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Dec 14 20:21:01 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 10:21:01 -1000 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha In-Reply-To: <19981214125725.8778.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043554.23782.6346732838330030487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > avalokitezvara (the Hindu 'Siva in a Buddhist garb) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I presume this is a theory rather than an established fact. There is almost nothing in common between the "personalities" of these two deities, Siva and Avalokiteshvara. In fact, they are almost exact opposites. Siva is often wrathful, Avalokiteshvara never so; one is a hunter, the other saves animals; one is sometimes cruel, the other is always compassionate; one is hot-tempered, the other patient; one is associated with destruction, the other with protection; etc. etc. etc. Further, Avalokiteshvara is definitely the sidekick or subsidiary of a big shot, i.e., the Buddha Amitabha, whereas Siva stands alone. Just a few differences... Regards, Raja. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Mon Dec 14 09:22:27 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 10:22:27 +0100 Subject: Om mani padme hum (was: Karandavyuha) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981212150559.007a2bc0@plains.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <161227043529.23782.2805785922903818076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Isn't there a more recent study that explains maNipadme as the vocative of >a feminine maNipadmA (as the name of a goddess)?--"O jewel-lotus goddess!" >I cannot recall the reference. > >> >> Is it at the fountainhead of Buddhist Tantra literature, >>because Avalokitesvara's important mantra - Om maNi padme hUm - >>is explained there. maNi refers to linga of 'Saivism and >>padma is yoni (A. Francke, The meaning of Om maNi padme hUm >>formula, JRAS, 1915, 0. 397-404.) > > >Burt Thorp >English Department >University of North Dakota >Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 See David L. Snellgrove, Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, London 1987, p. 195, where he quotes the spell "OM MANIPADME HUM = O thou with the jewelled lotus" adding a footnote (no. 134): "These "spells" (vidyA) are all feminine in form, which is entirely normal, and the oft seen translation of "Jewel in the Lotus" is a later misunderstanding of someone who is unaware of the nature of such "spells" and the whole feminine context of their application." Regards, G.v.Simson From umadevi at SFO.COM Mon Dec 14 19:39:22 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 11:39:22 -0800 Subject: SV: diabetes, epilepsy, hedgehogs Message-ID: <161227043550.23782.2982457554249529267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A while ago J. Baltuch wrote asking about hedgehogs, diabetes, epilepsy and gypsies (sounds like a new age rock group). I don't know if this helps, but: Epilepsy is sometimes considered a blessing of the goddess (or god). A while back I was checking out some Newari ladies who were considered to be devata chadne or deo maju, they would "channel" the goddess Hariti. One woman in particular knew that she had epilepsy, but considered it a lucky coincidence that her epileptic seizures also allowed her to be accessible to Hariti Ma. Mary From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 19:58:57 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 11:58:57 -0800 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati Message-ID: <161227043552.23782.10800317953025632146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kalidasa`s epic heroines, princesses have pets - does or peacocks. Would this be some thing like that. May be Kumaragupta shows that Laxmi (or Sarasvati?) protects him. Kumara Karthikeya has peacock as the vAhana. Regards, N. Ganesan -------------------------------------- What is the relationship between Laxmi, the goddess of wealth and Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge in Indian mythology? Secondly, is there any mention of association of Laxmi with peacock, the vehicle of Saraswati? I have an ancient gold coin minted by great Gupta emperor, Kumargupta which depicts a goddess feeding a peacock. All the gupta emperors minted coins showing Laxmi sitting on lotus. But this coin seems to be totally different from rest of them. I have a feeling that perhaps Kumargupta tried to mint coins showing Saraswati instead Laxmi which many of the scholars simply considering `Laxmi feeding peacock'. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From roheko at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Dec 14 11:45:41 1998 From: roheko at T-ONLINE.DE (Rolf Koch) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 12:45:41 +0100 Subject: Om mani padme hum (was: Karandavyuha) Message-ID: <161227043531.23782.18347017832208633305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In regards to the difference between mantra and vidyA I came across the following AryA stanza in the Avazyaka-niryukti vs. 931 (according to the version of the Niryukti as cited by the commentator Haribhadra): itthi vijjA-abhihiyA puriso mantu tti tav-viseso-ayaM vijjA sa-sAhaNA vA sAhaNa-rahio a mantu tti "vidyA is feminine, mantra is masculine, that is the difference between both of them. vidyA is done with or without sAdhana and mantra is done without sAdhana" Georg von Simson wrote: > >Isn't there a more recent study that explains maNipadme as the vocative of > >a feminine maNipadmA (as the name of a goddess)?--"O jewel-lotus goddess!" > >I cannot recall the reference. > > > >> > >> Is it at the fountainhead of Buddhist Tantra literature, > >>because Avalokitesvara's important mantra - Om maNi padme hUm - > >>is explained there. maNi refers to linga of 'Saivism and > >>padma is yoni (A. Francke, The meaning of Om maNi padme hUm > >>formula, JRAS, 1915, 0. 397-404.) > > > > > >Burt Thorp > >English Department > >University of North Dakota > >Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 > > See David L. Snellgrove, Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, London 1987, p. 195, where > he quotes the spell "OM MANIPADME HUM = O thou with the jewelled lotus" > adding a footnote (no. 134): "These "spells" (vidyA) are all feminine in > form, which is entirely normal, and the oft seen translation of "Jewel in > the Lotus" is a later misunderstanding of someone who is unaware of the > nature of such "spells" and the whole feminine context of their > application." > > Regards, > G.v.Simson From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU Mon Dec 14 18:04:06 1998 From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Dr. Nupam Mahajan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 13:04:06 -0500 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati In-Reply-To: <003601be25fe$948c5be0$7c5407c2@default> Message-ID: <161227043546.23782.14267131489988611151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, What is the relationship between Laxmi, the goddess of wealth and Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge in Indian mythology? Secondly, is there any mention of association of Laxmi with peacock, the vehicle of Saraswati? I have an ancient gold coin minted by great Gupta emperor, Kumargupta which depicts a goddess feeding a peacock. All the gupta emperors minted coins showing Laxmi sitting on lotus. But this coin seems to be totally different from rest of them. I have a feeling that perhaps Kumargupta tried to mint coins showing Saraswati instead Laxmi which many of the scholars simply considering `Laxmi feeding peacock'. The coin can be seen at http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/Sgupta1.html Your veiws in this regard would be greatly appreciated. With best wishes, Nupam Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D. Room 230, CB#7295 Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center UNC, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA Fax: 919-933-5455 http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 14 18:20:13 1998 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 13:20:13 -0500 Subject: Backup tapes of Indology archives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043549.23782.3491859013309098003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> However, there is no medium in existence which will >still be readable in 50 years. how about BOOKS!!! (not that we want to print out the Indology archives... but old conservative that I am, I could not resist pointing out that *some* things do survive longer than 50 years...) Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 21:32:31 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 13:32:31 -0800 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043556.23782.15352542039560483980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Avalokita is a major deity for billion+ people., Kuanyin for China, Kannon for Japan and in preislamic Indonesia (Borabudur) and in all countries of Southeast Asia. Many published references exist explaining 'Siva-Avalokita relations. N. S. Raja wrote: "There is almost nothing in common between the "personalities" of these two deities, Siva and Avalokiteshvara." Many publications write materials running to several pages on 'Siva-Avalokitezvara commonalities. Regards, N. Ganesan On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > avalokitezvara (the Hindu 'Siva in a Buddhist garb) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I presume this is a theory rather than an established fact. There is almost nothing in common between the "personalities" of these two deities, Siva and Avalokiteshvara. In fact, they are almost exact opposites. Siva is often wrathful, Avalokiteshvara never so; one is a hunter, the other saves animals; one is sometimes cruel, the other is always compassionate; one is hot-tempered, the other patient; one is associated with destruction, the other with protection; etc. etc. etc. Further, Avalokiteshvara is definitely the sidekick or subsidiary of a big shot, i.e., the Buddha Amitabha, whereas Siva stands alone. Just a few differences... Regards, Raja. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 21:55:43 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 13:55:43 -0800 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043558.23782.6696100428306846581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. S. Raja writing on opposites of 'Siva and Avalokita*izvara*: .... "one is a hunter, the other saves animals" ... Avalokita-*izvara* sports an antelope skin; SimhanAda Avalokitezvara has a trident. SadhanamAla (11-12th century) has several avalokitas' prayers. Avalokitamurtis described are: Nilakanta A., Halahala A., & so on. Avalokitezvara has the third eye in his forehead, acc. to texts. In fact, many Chola sculptures have been identified as 'Siva. But they are really Avalokitezvaras, one can confirm this by looking at "the Buddha in the crown". There is a huge Avalokita-Tara pair at Terur near Kanyakumari worshipped today as 'Siva-Parvati. I went inside the garbagrham/karuvaRai to look at the Buddha in the crown. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 14 22:04:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 14:04:24 -0800 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha Message-ID: <161227043560.23782.5923386213443484954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let us see what an authority on Mahayana Buddhism has to say on 'siva-avalokita acoonexions. Lokesh Chandra,1979, ODDiyAna: a new interpretation says: "the acculturation of 'Siva into Buddhist tradition may have takenplace in South India and thence it was transmitted to Indonesia where 'Siva-Buddha syncretism was deeply entrenched." Avalokita is enshrined in Borabudur. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Mon Dec 14 13:05:36 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 14:05:36 +0100 Subject: Buddha's funeral (was: pots, brahmin names, and potters) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981214001957.007a82a0@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227043536.23782.6257906065362315247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Artur Karp, you wrote: > >Thank you for your patience in answering my questions. I do hope you would >be able to withstand two more. > >reasons.> > >One understands well, why AjAtasattu, the king of Magadha, and the six >tribes (the Licchavis of VesAlI, the Sakyas of KApilavatthu, the Bulis of >Allakappa, the Kolis of RAmagAma, the Mallas of PAvA and the Mallas of >KusinArA) would want to possess the relics of the Buddha. > >However, one of the eight recipients of the relics does not seem to >represent any power, and yet also he obtains the full share [bhAga] of the >relics. He is a brahmin and he is either called VeThadIpaka, or he comes >from a place named VeThadIpa. > >What is his name in the Sanskrit MPS? Does Bareau write anything about him? In the Sanskrit MPS instead of a single individual (the brahmin veThadIpaka) another group of people appears, the "viSNudvipIyaka brAhmaNa-s", called after the locality viSNudvIpa. The Chinese versions point into the same direction. Bareau considers them as just another group living in the neighbourhood of Kuzinagara (as to the geography, he refers in a footnote to an article of Voegel, JRAS 1907). He overlooks the peculiarity of the fact that the Pali version here mentions an individual and not a group. But since the Pali version generally represents the oldest tradition, I think you are fully entitled to take this anomaly seriously. >VeThadIpa is not present at the funeral ceremony. The message he sends to >the Mallas of KusinArA to inform them about the validity of his claim >doesn't contain any hint of humility. > >DoNa is his opposite. He is present at the funeral ceremony. Although he >personally divides the relics into eight portions, he isn't entitled to a >share in them. In order to obtain the urn he has to humbly ask for it. > >As they are entitled to 'primary relics'[bhAge], the king, the six tribes >and the brahmin VeThadIpa seem to form a higher status group. The lower >status group is entitled to only 'secondary relics' and is represented by >the tribe of Moriyas of Pipphalivana, who as late-comers have to satisfy >themselves with the ashes [angAram], and the brahmin DoNa who is given the >empty urn [kumbha]. > >As seen from the text, the relative hierarchy of the tribes is based on the >opposition between early and late entrants. As far as the brahmins are >concerned, their hierarchy seems to rest on the opposition between being >uninvolved or involved in the handling and division of the relics. > >It may well be that in order to get to know more about DoNa (and his type >of brahminhood), we would have to know more about VeThadIpa. > I am afraid the texts do not contain much useful information (and that means that we are free to speculate!). According to the Pali commentary literature, there was also a king VeThadIpaka who was a friend of the king of Allakappa (see Malalasekera, DPPN). Regards, G.v.Simson From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 15 00:51:22 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 16:51:22 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043561.23782.5041031765047391185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. S. Raja writes: <<< I presume this is a theory rather than an established fact. There is almost nothing in common between the "personalities" of these two deities, Siva and Avalokiteshvara. In fact, they are almost exact opposites. >>> M.-T. de Mallmann, Introduction a l'etude d'Avalokitezvara, Paris, 1967. See the section: Avalokitezvara et la tendance zivaite. Also, sAdhanamAlA section where halahala A. nilakantha a., padmanarttezvara A. are vividly described. Dancing Avalokita is obviously imitating Nataraja in texts or icons. ------------------------------------ M. Deshpande, Who inspired Panini?, JAOS, 1997 (The entire paper deals with Mahezvara and Avalokitezvara competitions and commonalities. I can't type major portions) "Such affinity is particularly evident between Avalokitezvara and Mahezvara. The close connection of Avalokitezvara and ziva was brought out by Alice Getty in her famous work, The Gods of Northern Buddhism, Their history and iconography (1928): Avalokitezvara is sometimes represented with five heads, in which case he resembles 'siva as Mahadeva with five heads; but his form with more than one head has usually double that number, with the head of Amitabha on top, making eleven heads in all. He is often represented in yab-yum attitude with his 'sakthi, but there are examples where he holds the yum on his knee in archaic manner, as 'Siva holds Parvati. (p. 59) She also refers to forms of A. with kapAla (p.60), a third eye, wearing a tiger skin, a trident, his throat blue because of poison, a serpent, and a crescent (p.69). These are all clearly 'saivaite motifs. Referring to avalokitezvara, Dietrich Seckel (1964: 224-5) points out: Religious speculation and popular piety invest him with immense wisdom and the power to work miracles, as a result of which, as Buddhism becomes hinduized and popularized, he becomes Cosmic ruler of the world, resembling Brahma, and finally, in tantrism, is assimilated to shiva ... Like Shiva, Avalokitezvara possesses various magical powers, symbolized in many of his guises by his having several heads and arms. Like Shiva again, he could also take on a fearsome guise, and could put his arms around a 'sakthi in mystical union " -------------------------------------------- R. Banerjee, The Eight Great Bodhisattvas, 1994 p. 50 "Most of the later iconographic history of Avalokitezvara is a process of gradual merger with his Hindu rival. Like Siva he acquires a female consort, sprouts multiple arms and heads, widens his personality to include terrible forms as well as benign ones, ..." p. 54 "Further the eleven headed Avalokitezvara reminds us of Ekadasa rudras. A figure of Ekadasa Rudra (with 11 heads and many arms) has been found at Peddaveggi, Andhra Pradesh. This figure has abundant similarity to the eleven-headed A. from Central Asia and Dunhuang" I. K. Sharma, the art historian, has an article on similarities between Avalokitezvara and Siva. To Xuan Zang, at Potalaka in the MalakUTa country of the Malaya mountains, the bodhisattva appears as Avalokita to Buddhists and as 'Siva to Buddhists. According to R. Raghava Aiyangar writing in 1920s, Parvati is praised as MalayavAsini in Lalita SahasranAmam while Tara, her Buddhist counterpart, is praised as Potalagiri nivAsini in tARaSuktam. There are more references on these affinities. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Dec 14 17:13:37 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 17:13:37 +0000 Subject: Backup tapes of Indology archives In-Reply-To: <19981214142824.18328.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043544.23782.1043799964863775470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > Is there a procedure to back up all the Indology archives? > It will be very valuable, say after 50 years, to check on > many debates, references, themes, ideas, speculations etc., I agree completely with your general sentiment; there are several PhDs-worth of sociology, history of scholarship, historiography, etc., in the INDOLOGY archive. However, there is no medium in existence which will still be readable in 50 years. (Or, at least, for which reading technology can be guaranteed still to be available.) So having data on an active hard disc, with a good local periodic backup routine, is probably the best that one can do at present. > Also, In the Indology archives, there are lot of unreadable > scribble emanating from the Microsoft Attachment problem. The amount of space these consume is negligible from the point of view of storage, and not worth the effort necessary to find and delete them. Thank you for your suggestions. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 15 13:40:17 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 05:40:17 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043568.23782.18267836254072842716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indeed, Avalokitezvara has legends from other Hindu Gods. Purushasuukta legend is told for Avalokita too; Some from Krishna cycle also. However, the majority of myths are from 'Saivaite corpus. As time passes by, Avalokita more and more resembles 'Siva. Both Avalokita and 'Siva are called dRshTiguru. Mallmann's classic study of Avalokitezvara (p. 114): Avalokitezvara has trizUla, kapAla, khaDga, vajra, pAza, aGkuza, ghaNTaa, agni, zakti (lance), khaTvAGga, Damaru, Dhakka, dhanus (cApa), bana (zara). 1)KaaraNDavyUha's mantra Om maNi padme hUm is really 'Saivaite motif, linga-yoni (A. Francke, JRAS, 1915). 2) In Sanskrit tradition, 'Siva (padamanJjari) and Avalokita (manjusrimulakalpa) inspire Panini; In Tamil tradition, contemporaneously 'Siva (Kamban) and Avalokita (viiracOzhiyam) insprire Agastya. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 15 14:21:08 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 06:21:08 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043570.23782.5962273407206921410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [...] see Lokesh Chandra, The Thousand-armed Avalokitezvara, New Delhi, 1988, especially Ch. 2 (pp. 18-28): "The Origin of Avalokita-svara/Avalokit-ezvara." [...] Have not seen this book yet. But, I have read a little on Avalokita-iizvara and Avalokita-svara (from Avalokita-lokasvara?). Avalokita -svara may be an ingenous way of delinking Avalokitezvara from Hindu ('Siva) connections. The problem is Hsuan Tsang translates iizvara and not svara into Chinese. He calls Avalokitezvara as Kuan tzu-tsai, Avalokita iizvara and not Avalokita Svara. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lnelson at ACUSD.EDU Tue Dec 15 15:42:30 1998 From: lnelson at ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 07:42:30 -0800 Subject: Hindu-Christian Studies Book Award Message-ID: <161227043572.23782.9600158544927072272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HINDU-CHRISTIAN STUDIES BOOK AWARD ANNOUNCEMENT The Society for Hindu-Christian Studies invites nominations for the Best Book in Hindu-Christian Studies, 1997-1999. At its annual meeting in conjunction with the American Academy of Religion in 2000, the Society for Hindu-Christian Studies will give the award to a book published in the time period 1997-1999. To celebrate the winning book, the Society will sponsor a panel discussion of the book, to which (if he or she can be present) the author will respond. The members of the Book Committee are: Francis X. Clooney, S.J. (Boston College), committee chair; Laurie Patton (Emory University); Tamal Krishna Goswami (Cambridge University); Tinu Ruparell (Liverpool Hope University College) ; Corinne Dempsey (Syracuse University); Sushil Mittal (University of Florida) Between now and November 1999, the Society invites nominations for this award. Standards for nominated books include: 1) publication in 1997, 1998, or 1999; 2) scholarly excellence; 3) the book should be a distinguished contribution to the field of Hindu-Christian studies, according to criteria such as the following: a) a comparative study of a theme in the Hindu and Christian traditions, or of two (or more) thinkers from those traditions; and/or b) a study which traces some aspect of the interaction of Hindus and Christians (e.g., in the colonial period, in a missionary context, in a contemporary setting, inside or outside India); and/or c) a study in which the author, belonging (religiously and/or culturally) to either the Hindu or the Christian tradition, reflexively undertakes a study of some idea, image, ritual, author, text, etc., from the other tradition, and thus bring it into dialogue with his or her own tradition. Nominations should be sent to Francis X. Clooney, S.J., Chair of the Book Committee (Theology Department, Boston College, Chestnut Hill, MA 02467- 3806; clooney at bc.edu) no later than November 19th, 1999. (Authors are welcome to nominate their own books.) Please include some brief indication of the appropriateness of the book for consideration for the award. Publishers are urged to send a copy of the book itself. The committee will make its decision by the spring of 2000, and invite the author to come to the Society's annual meeting for 2000, in conjunction with the American Academy of Religion's annual meeting. At its annual meeting in November, 1997, the Society gave its first book award, for the years 1994-1996, to Francis X. Clooney, for his _Seeing through Texts: Doing Theology among the Srivaisnvas of South India_ (SUNY: 1996). ------------------------ Lance Nelson Theology & Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at acusd.edu From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Dec 15 08:56:21 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 09:56:21 +0100 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043564.23782.9943152648662235345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja wrote: >On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > >> avalokitezvara (the Hindu 'Siva in a Buddhist garb) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I presume this is a theory rather >than an established fact. There >is almost nothing in common between >the "personalities" of these two deities, >Siva and Avalokiteshvara. In fact, they >are almost exact opposites. > >Siva is often wrathful, Avalokiteshvara never so; >one is a hunter, the other saves animals; one >is sometimes cruel, the other is always >compassionate; one is hot-tempered, the >other patient; one is associated with destruction, >the other with protection; etc. etc. etc. Further, >Avalokiteshvara is definitely the sidekick or >subsidiary of a big shot, i.e., the Buddha Amitabha, >whereas Siva stands alone. > >Just a few differences... > >Regards, > > >Raja. Indeed, there is much more to connect Avalokiteshvara with Brahman (who in many respects can be considered an opposite of Shiva!), see Lokesh Chandra, The Thousand-armed Avalokitezvara, New Delhi, 1988, especially Ch. 2 (pp. 18-28): "The Origin of Avalokita-svara/Avalokit-ezvara." Or has Lokesh Chandra's theory about the origin of Avalokiteshvara been refuted? To me it sounded quite convincing. Regards, Georg v. Simson From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Dec 15 09:09:37 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 10:09:37 +0100 Subject: KaaraNDavyUha In-Reply-To: <19981214220424.15203.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043566.23782.18329799003489560245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >Let us see what an authority on Mahayana Buddhism >has to say on 'siva-avalokita acoonexions. > >Lokesh Chandra,1979, ODDiyAna: a new interpretation says: >"the acculturation of 'Siva into Buddhist tradition >may have takenplace in South India and thence it was >transmitted to Indonesia where 'Siva-Buddha >syncretism was deeply entrenched." > >Avalokita is enshrined in Borabudur. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan It's funny that we both refer to Lokesh Chandra (see my last message). It seems that the common features of Shiva and Avalokiteshvara are due to that process of "acculturation of 'Siva into Buddhist tradition" L. Ch. mentions in your quotation whereas Avalokiteshvara's origin points into a different direction. Regards, G.v.Simson From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Dec 15 20:44:03 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 10:44:03 -1000 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043582.23782.132055177439878172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan, What I questioned was the description of Avalokitesvara as "the Hindu 'Siva in a Buddhist garb". Possibly you just said it casually and din't expect to debate it seriously. If so, we can just leave it at that. Sugar is whitish, crystalline, is produced by boiling a liquid, is prized by humans, and is added to tea in small quantities. Salt is also whitish, crystalline, is produced by evaporating a liquid, is prized by humans, and -- in Tibet -- is added to tea in small quantities. Yet, one would be seriously mistaken to say "salt is sugar in a Tibetan garb". The basic "flavours" of Siva and Avalokitesvara are totally different. I already pointed out some such differences in my previous posting. If I were to characterize these two deities in terms of their main rasas (moods), I would come up with: Siva: raudra (furious), vira (heroic), bhayanaka (frightening), adbhuta (marvellous), sringara (erotic), hasya (funny), shanta (peaceful) Avalokitesvara: karuna (compassionate), adbhuta (marvellous), shanta (peaceful) These are my own reactions (not based on any authority or citation). But I believe most people would agree with the above characterization. The difference is dramatic and obvious. Best regards, Raja. From cbmuseu at ATT.NET Tue Dec 15 18:47:43 1998 From: cbmuseu at ATT.NET (Catherine Benkaim) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 10:47:43 -0800 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <161227043578.23782.9877153176563530855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> regarding Indian palm leaf ms. Perhaps I can help you. Contact:cbmuseu at att.net. What is it that you request? Arvind Acharya wrote: > Hello: > > I am interested in getting in touch with collectors of Indian palm leaf > manuscripts. Would you know of any? > > Thank you. > Arvind Acharya From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 15 20:37:09 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 12:37:09 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043580.23782.3462492847020296941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: <<< Lokesh Chandra's point of departure are the two companions of Buddha in early Buddhist mythology (in which rudra-ziva does not yet play any part): zakra (indra) as lord of the sky, and brahmA sahAMpati as lord of the earth (sahA). Later, when the buddha was seen as amitAbha, the two companions became the bodhisattvas mahAsthAmaprApta and avalokitasvara, "He by whom the Sound (svara, word, logos) is perceived". >>> I read that "avalokita" is to gaze, to look down, to perceive. I do not understand why Mahayanists would coin a name "to look down at the Sounds (svara)". Rather, "One who hears sounds of the world" sounds natural. ^^^^^ avalokita+svara is little strange. A scholar wrote in a publication that avalokitaSvara sounds very odd to Indian ears. (Trying to recollect the paper or book. I will give it soon.) Before Hsuan Tsang's times, are there any Buddhist sanskrit texts where avalokitezvara is linked to Brahma but not 'Siva in the same text? It will be good for the theory of avaolokita-svara originating from Brahma if there is an earlier strata of texts where avalokitezvara is linked to Brahma and not 'Siva. Thanks for your time. Sincerely, N. Ganesan I think Dr. Marie-Therese Mallmann makes some errors on the origins of avalokitezvara. I will try to explain that soon. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From AsifJah at AOL.COM Tue Dec 15 18:12:27 1998 From: AsifJah at AOL.COM (Arvind Acharya) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 13:12:27 -0500 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <161227043576.23782.7089317090484237917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello: I am interested in getting in touch with collectors of Indian palm leaf manuscripts. Would you know of any? Thank you. Arvind Acharya From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 15 21:24:44 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 13:24:44 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043586.23782.12877089435740404111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. S. Raja writes: <<< Sugar is whitish, crystalline, is produced by boiling a liquid, is prized by humans, and is added to tea in small quantities. Salt is also whitish, crystalline, is produced by evaporating a liquid, is prized by humans, and -- in Tibet -- is added to tea in small quantities. Yet, one would be seriously mistaken to say "salt is sugar in a Tibetan garb". >>> I do not know if Tibetan Tea has sugar or salt. Is salt added really? I would think milk will get spoiled, unless one drinks salty tea soon after its preparation. Want to read on the recipes of salty Tibetan tea. I am afraid that this analogy of salt and sugar to 'Siva and Avalokitezvara does not work. At the very least, post 630 AD. Compare salt and sugar: density, taste, chemical structure, ... are very different. So, I will never say that "Salt is sugar in a Tibetan garb". Compare 'Siva and Avalokitezvara: Both have nrttezvara, nIlakantha, hAlahAla forms. Both sport 20 common weapons. Both teach grammar to Panini and Agastya. Both are drishti gurus. Both have siva-sakthi, maNi-padma unions, .... That's why I said that "Avalokitezvara is Siva in Buddhist garb". Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Dec 15 23:00:42 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 15:00:42 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043590.23782.6306405937330845413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > N. S. Raja writes: > <<< > Sugar is whitish, crystalline, is produced by > boiling a liquid, is prized by humans, and is > added to tea in small quantities. Salt is also > whitish, crystalline, is produced by evaporating > a liquid, is prized by humans, and -- in Tibet -- > is added to tea in small quantities. Yet, > one would be seriously mistaken to say > "salt is sugar in a Tibetan garb". > >>> > > I do not know if Tibetan Tea has sugar or salt. > Is salt added really? I would think milk > will get spoiled, unless one drinks salty > tea soon after its preparation. > Want to read on the recipes of salty Tibetan tea. > > I am afraid that this analogy of salt and sugar > to 'Siva and Avalokitezvara does not work. > At the very least, post 630 AD. > > Compare salt and sugar: density, taste, chemical > structure, ... are very different. > So, I will never say that "Salt is sugar in a > Tibetan garb". > > Compare 'Siva and Avalokitezvara: Both have > nrttezvara, nIlakantha, hAlahAla forms. > Both sport 20 common weapons. Both teach > grammar to Panini and Agastya. Both are > drishti gurus. Both have siva-sakthi, > maNi-padma unions, .... > That's why I said that "Avalokitezvara is > Siva in Buddhist garb". Some of these attributes are rather general in Vajrayana and Kalacakra Buddhism. For example, the Kalacakra supreme deity wears a tiger skin, has the third eye, has yab-yum and mani-padma characteristics, is the destroyer of the universe, is time incarnate, has multiple heads (usually four or five), and multiple arms (usually 12 or 24), and has his hair in a high topknot. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 15 23:16:54 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 15:16:54 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043597.23782.12563603461387289429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >[...] see Lokesh Chandra, >The Thousand-armed Avalokitezvara, New Delhi, 1988, especially Ch. 2 >(pp. >18-28): "The Origin of Avalokita-svara/Avalokit-ezvara." [...] > >Have not seen this book yet. But, I have read a little >on Avalokita-iizvara and Avalokita-svara (from Avalokita-lokasvara?). > >Avalokita -svara may be an ingenous way of delinking >Avalokitezvara from Hindu ('Siva) connections. **It seems rather to be the other way round: the zivaitic **avalokitezvara as an ingenious way of delinking him from his **origins. Lokesh Chandra's point of departure are the two companions ** of Buddha in early Buddhist mythology (in which rudra-ziva does ** not yet play any part): zakra (indra) as lord of **the sky, and brahmA sahAMpati as lord of the earth (sahA). **Later, when the buddha was seen as amitAbha, the two companions **became the bodhisattvas mahAsthAmaprApta and avalokitasvara, ** "He by whom the Sound (svara, word, logos) is perceived". The Bodhisattva doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit literature, Har Dayal (author), Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1932 p. 44 "In the early Mahayaana, the bodhisattvas are inferior and subordinate to the Buddhas; but they acquire greater importance in course of time till they are at last regarded as equal to the Buddhas in many respects.... They are to be worshipped like the Buddhas, or even in preference to them. This gradual exaltation of the Bodhisattvas at the expense of the Buddhas culminates in the apotheosis of Avalokitezvara, who is declared to be a kind of "Buddha-maker", while he himself remains the eternal bodhisattva. .."" p. 46, "MahAsthAmapraapta is one of the two active ministers in the Buddha AmitAbha's paradise SukhaavatI and Vajra-garbha figures in the Da. BhU. .. VajrapaaNi is described as the chief of Buddha's servants (zikSA 316, 7). But all these are rather shadowy figures. The two most important bodhisattvas are Manjusri and Avalokitezvara". p. 47 "It has been objected that avalokita-svara is a queer sort of compound, which would convey no clear meaning to an Indian [71]". [71] E. J. Thomas, JRAS, 1929, p.359 -------------------------- I would rather take the Japanese Scholar Daiyo Goto's and Har Dayal's view that Avalokitezvara is the original Indian name. Chinese translator KumarajIva delinks the 'Saivaite connection at 400 AD. Hsuan Tsang (630 AD), the Pilgrim Prince makes the necessary correction to restore Avalokitezvara. Sanskrit texts portray 'Siva as horrifying and terrorful. Further we go back in time, 'Siva appears to be more terrible according to Sanskrit texts. May be 'Siva is a late incomer into Vedic Aryan society. But 'Siva is very benign in Classical Sangam texts; A joyous dancer all the time in Tamil texts. He is very compassionate in literally 1000s of poems in the Tamil Saiva texts (from 5th century). Tamil stalapurANams, 1200 in all, must contain about 200,000 extant viruttams on 'Siva. Even their surface has not been scratched academically. "anbE 'Sivam" - Lord 'Siva is Love, Tirumantiram, 5-6th century. "appan nI, ammai nI, anbuDaiya maaman nI .." tEvAram (7th century). - Lord 'Siva is my father, my mother, my beloved maternal uncle. Traditional vyAkhyAnakartAs explain this line: Look, The Saivaite saint gives no adjectives to mom and dad, but see what he says about maternal uncle. In Dravidian kinship systems, maternal uncle is close to sisters' kids than anybody else. Learnt from Indology, cross-cousin weddings were present at Buddha's household too. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 15 21:02:37 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 16:02:37 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043584.23782.13905173365455771450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/15/98 2:38:42 PM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > I read that "avalokita" is to gaze, to look down, to perceive. > I do not understand why Mahayanists would coin a name > "to look down at the Sounds (svara)". Rather, > "One who hears sounds of the world" sounds natural. > ^^^^^ > avalokita+svara is little strange. A scholar wrote in > a publication that avalokitaSvara sounds very odd to Indian ears. > (Trying to recollect the paper or book. I will > give it soon.) I do not know if the following will be of any help. Regarding the terms avalokitezvara and avalokitasvara, this is what Shu Hikosaka says in Buddhism in Tamilnadu: A New Perspective, p.78. "The differences of opinion regarding the terminology continued till recent times. In 1927, some fragments of an old manuscript namely avalokitezvara bodhisattva samanta-mukha-parivarta have been discovered from east Turkestan, in which this name is mentioned as avalokitasvara. On the basis of this evidence, many scholars express the opinion that there are two Sanskrit forms namely avalokitezvara and avalokita-svara. Among them the name avalokita-svara is considered to be the oldest form. In the later period, under the influence of Hinduism as well as Tantric Buddhism, this has changed into avalokitezvara. Although this opinion has been accepted in general, it could be interpreted in a different way. TaiyU GotO gives an interesting suggestion in this regard. According to him, in the Buddhist texts which have been brought from Central Asia, this term has been translated as Kanzejizai. This gives the clue by which to consider that this term was originallyavalokitezvara in India. when this term had entered into Central Asia, it might have been written as valokita-svara owing to dialectal change or the misreading of the copyists." Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 15 21:24:29 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 16:24:29 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043588.23782.3076875898153363870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/15/98 2:45:08 PM Central Standard Time, raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU writes: > > The basic "flavours" of Siva and Avalokitesvara > are totally different. I already pointed out > some such differences in my previous posting. > > If I were to characterize these two deities > in terms of their main rasas (moods), I would > come up with: > > Siva: raudra (furious), vira (heroic), > bhayanaka (frightening), adbhuta (marvellous), > sringara (erotic), hasya (funny), > shanta (peaceful) > > Avalokitesvara: karuna (compassionate), > adbhuta (marvellous), shanta (peaceful) > While ziva in his multivalent aspects may represent more than avalokitezvara, I believe the syncretism that developed may have had the dakSiNAmurti form as its zaivite component. In the book "Dakshinamurti (Agamam & Silpam)" IInd Part, p.133, S. Narayanaswamy says, "The great Sankaracharya, among several other celebrities, have sung the Praise of this aspect of Siva, which is as remarkable for its peacefulness as the Nrittamurti is for joyfulness." Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 15 22:12:51 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 17:12:51 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043592.23782.12492405858833250796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/15/98 3:05:39 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote: > it might have been written as valokita-svara owing to dialectal change ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please read avalokita-svara. My "a" was lost in the periodical AOL time-out prompts. Sorry for the oversight. Regards S. Palaniappan From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Dec 16 03:22:51 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 17:22:51 -1000 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: <19981215212445.18173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043603.23782.15617089025100254091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > Compare 'Siva and Avalokitezvara: Both have > nrttezvara, nIlakantha, hAlahAla forms. I have not made a special study of this, so I'm relying on daily experience. I have seen hundreds of images/pictures of Avalokitesvara/Kuan Yin/Kwanseum Posal/Kannon. I can assure you that "nrttezvara, nIlakantha, hAlahAla forms" are rare (in fact, I don't remember a single one). I don't doubt that they exist. But they are untypical. You will have to search hard for them. There is a famous picture of Mao in his sixties, swimming across the Yangtze river in winter. This is an untypical aspect of Mao. On the basis of this untypical aspect of Mao, we cannot conclude that he is closely related to the "baiji" or Yangtze river dolphin. :-) :-) No offence, can't resist. :-) > Both sport 20 common weapons. Many Indian, esp. Tantric, deities do. Why, my own 11-year old nephew... well, let me leave it at that. > Both teach > grammar to Panini and Agastya. This is a really interesting link, one that I din't know about. Thank you. Would like to know more... > Both are drishti gurus. Pardon my ignorance, but what's that? Is it an astrological term? > Both have siva-sakthi, maNi-padma unions, .... Many Tantric deities do. Why, I myself... well, let's stop here. Best regards. No offence intended by the silly jokes. Raja. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Dec 15 22:57:23 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 17:57:23 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: <956d8052.3676dee3@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227043594.23782.18088930895686484532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The alternation of avalokitasvara and avalokitezvara in all likelihood points to some underlying Prakrit where svara and -zvara would both be reduced to -(s)sara, cf. the usage of Pali where Skt. svara is represented by sara, and Skt. iizvara by issara. Sanskritization of originally Prakrit words creates multiple possibilities in Sanskrit. Madhav Deshpande From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Dec 15 17:05:04 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 18:05:04 +0100 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: <19981215142108.9537.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043574.23782.3294490858086668549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >[...] see Lokesh Chandra, >The Thousand-armed Avalokitezvara, New Delhi, 1988, especially Ch. 2 >(pp. >18-28): "The Origin of Avalokita-svara/Avalokit-ezvara." [...] > >Have not seen this book yet. But, I have read a little >on Avalokita-iizvara and Avalokita-svara (from Avalokita-lokasvara?). > >Avalokita -svara may be an ingenous way of delinking >Avalokitezvara from Hindu ('Siva) connections. It seems rather to be the other way round: the zivaitic avalokitezvara as an ingenious way of delinking him from his origins. Lokesh Chandra's point of departure are the two companions of Buddha in early Buddhist mythology (in which rudra-ziva does not yet play any part): zakra (indra) as lord of the sky, and brahmA sahAMpati as lord of the earth (sahA). Later, when the buddha was seen as amitAbha, the two companions became the bodhisattvas mahAsthAmaprApta and avalokitasvara, "He by whom the Sound (svara, word, logos) is perceived". >The problem is Hsuan Tsang translates iizvara >and not svara into Chinese. He calls Avalokitezvara >as Kuan tzu-tsai, Avalokita iizvara and not Avalokita Svara. > Yes, Hsuan Tsang translates avalokita Izvara, no doubt. But he is late, and the older Chinese form of the name is, as you know, kuan-yin, where kuan means "see" and yin "sound", which clearly points to avalokita-svara. Your evidence of the relation between avalokitezvara and ziva is impressive, but, as I would see it, it shows no more than the gradual assimilation of the two gods (and I think we can call the bodhisattva a god for all practical reasons). The reason why Narayan S. Rajan feels uncomfortable with this identification is the other and less benign aspect of ziva, present e.g. in the mahAbhArata or in the Vedic Rudra. Regards, G.v.Simson From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Dec 16 04:05:40 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 18:05:40 -1000 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: <19981215231656.5904.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043606.23782.8275081628017137595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > But 'Siva is very benign in Classical Sangam texts; > A joyous dancer all the time in Tamil texts. > He is very compassionate in literally 1000s > of poems in the Tamil Saiva texts (from 5th century). Yes, this is an interesting fact that non-Tamils may not be aware of... Legends like that of "thAyumAnavar" (in which Siva takes the form of a pregnant woman's mother, to help her during labour) come to mind... Regards, Raja. From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Dec 16 00:01:10 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 19:01:10 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043599.23782.12885783971645504812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > N. S. Raja writes: > <<< > Sugar is whitish, crystalline, is produced by > boiling a liquid, is prized by humans, and is > added to tea in small quantities. Salt is also > whitish, crystalline, is produced by evaporating > a liquid, is prized by humans, and -- in Tibet -- > is added to tea in small quantities. Yet, > one would be seriously mistaken to say > "salt is sugar in a Tibetan garb". > >>> > > I do not know if Tibetan Tea has sugar or salt. > Is salt added really? Kalmuck tea (Mongolians of Russia) also has salt and cream or milk in it. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 16 02:54:32 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 21:54:32 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043601.23782.1666453551201948076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is probably a bad time of year to put out a request for info, but I am looking for appropriations of the Indo-European (then known as Aryan) connection by Indian intellectuals in the 18th and early 19th century. To be specific, I am looking for ways in which the discourses of common Aryan linguistic, cultural and racial ties between the Hindus and Europeans were appropriated by Hindus for various agendas, ie, to stress Aryan commonality and therefore equality with the British, or to advocate Hindu Aryan spiritual superiority over European Aryan materialistic decadence, or to acknowledge Hindu Aryan material weakness with a view to soliciting assistance from the European Aryan brethren, etc, etc. Lots of work has been done on Aryan discourse in the West, but can anyone refer me to any primary or secondary sources on parallel or contrasting manifestations of this phenomenon in India along the lines outlined above? I have a few bits and pieces from rummaging around as best I can, but am sure there must be a lot more out there. Thanks in advance, Edwin Bryant. From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 16 04:49:54 1998 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 23:49:54 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: <19981215005122.24785.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043609.23782.12993061423274829837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please notice that things have been written about Avalokitezvara more recently than the 1930s (or even 60s). Now of course newer is not always better, but... See for example John Brough, "Nugae Indo-Sericae" in Mary Boyce/Ilya Gershevitch, eds. Henning memorial volume (London, 1970): 83-84, reprinted in JB's Collected Papers pp. 360-61, in which most careful remarks are made on the phonology of the names. [just to contradict myself, see also A von Stael-Holstein, HJAS 1 (1936): 350-62, "Avalokita and Apalokita"] There is a massive literature on A. in Japanese, much of which is not worth much from a scholarly point of view of course, but any *serious* study of A. will have to take into account this work. (And sorry to say relying on Shu Hosaka for references to up-to-date Japanese work is not the best idea...) Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 16 05:58:14 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 00:58:14 -0500 Subject: The Aryans: correction. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043611.23782.15572461157598376199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I meant to say 19th, and early 20th century, in my previous posting. On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Edwin Bryant wrote: > This is probably a bad time of year to put out a request for info, but I > am looking for appropriations of the Indo-European (then known as Aryan) > connection by Indian intellectuals in the 18th and early 19th century. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 16 13:16:12 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 05:16:12 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043615.23782.16887234394233138163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri. N. S. Raja, I can understand that Narayana of Srirangam ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ has to contest the 'Siva-Avalokita connections :-) :-) ---------- On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > Both teach > grammar to Panini and Agastya. *This is a really interesting link, one *that I din't know about. Thank you. *Would like to know more... Please read M. Deshpande, Who inspired Panini? JAOS, 1997. Also, I posted 4 long postings (about 35k) under the title, Where was Panini inspired? (Part i), where i=I,II,III and IV to INDOLOGY. Pl. read them after the above paper to know the context. > Both are drishti gurus. *Pardon my ignorance, but what's that? *Is it an astrological term? Avalokita means to look down, gaze, see. 'Siva is called dhrishtiguru. That's the connection. > Both have siva-sakthi, maNi-padma unions, .... *Many Tantric deities do. Why, I myself... *well, let's stop here. But they are later. KaaraNDavyUha, in an early occurence talks of "Om maNi padme hUm" as the Avalokitezvara's mantra. Many other such occurences are later. Best regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 16 15:30:50 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 07:30:50 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043628.23782.9338109202553003219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Fontein, The pilgrimage of Sudhana, A study of GaNDavyUha illustrations in China, Japan and Java, 1967. p. 3 "The history of the translation into Chinese of the many different parts of this voluminous sUtra is extremely complicated and cannot be reviewed in detail here. The GaNDavyUha in all probability dates back to the first centuries of our era. The text is probably of South Indian origin. The starting-point of Sudhana's pilgrimage lies in the South and the sages of the South play a most important role in it. Some of the nonfictional place names mentioned in the text can be localized in the South." 'Siva, Avalokite'svara, Southern connections are brought out in the GaNDavyUha beautifully. This text is 2-3rd centuries AD. Much before KumarajIva or Hsuan Tsang. In South India (dakSiNApatha), more than 10 places are told as places of kalyaaNamitras (Sudhana's "good friends"). The kalyaaNamitra just before the last one in South India is Avalokitezvara. Immediately after Avalokitezvara's home Potalaka, Sudhana goes to the next Kalyanamitra site, the last Southern site mentined in GaNDavyUha. This kalyaaNamitra situated in the final, last Southern site whom Sudhana meets is Mahadeva. After meeting Avalokitezvara, and then Mahadeva in their homes, Sudhana goes back to BodhimaNDa, the home of historic Buddha. GaNDavyUha narrates the residences of Avalokitezvara and Mahadeva ('Siva) next to each other and as a concluding segment of the Southern pilgrimage. And, this is quite significant. May be this grand ultimate placement in GaNDavyUha gives us an indirect hint of the importance of 'Saivism, the role of 'Siva in South India, coalescing of Avalokitezvara and 'Siva in the first centuries AD. From fifth century AD, we are on more solid ground, these phenomena can be observed in texts and sculptures in South India (and Southeast Asia). Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------- Paul Wheatley, The Mount of the Immortals, A note on Tamil cultural influence in fifth-century Indochina, Oriens Extremus, v. 21, no. 1, 1974, p. 97-109. In 484 A.D., King KauNDinya Jayavarman of Funan sent an envoy to China, reported in Chinese chronicles. Wheatley's primary focus is to show that "Siva's mountain called as Mayentiram in Tamil is what is transcribed into Chinese and Cambodian. In his own words, "But it is still the Sanskrit name Mahendra that is associated with the god, and this is a form that cannot have been the original of the Chinese transcripion Mu^a-t^.am. Somewhat unexpectedly in the general context of the brahmanization of Southeast Asia as it had been customarily presented, it is in *Tamil* (not Sanskrit) "saivaite literature that the source of the Chinese transcription must be sought. The relevant texts have recently been assembled in convenient translation by Professor Filliozat ("New researches"), from whose versions the following citations are taken. The earliest extant Tamil reference to 'Siva as the King of Gods occurs in the 6th century TiruvirattaimaNimaalai of the woman saint Karaikkaalammaiyar, who unequivocally designates the god as "Lord of the Immortals" (amarar piraan). But the most numerous and most explicit passages ensconcing "Siva on Mount Mahendra are to be found in Tiruvaacakam, the 'Sacred Utterances' that constitute a veritable spiritual autobiography of the Tamil saint MaNikkavAcakar, perhaps the greatest of all exponents of the "saivasiddhaanta, who lived probably during the 9th century." [...] "Phonology and context here combine to support the conjecture that in MayEntiram, the Tamil form of the name of the abode of "Siva, is to be discerned the origin of the Chinese Mu^a-t^.am" ... "The use of the Tamil form of a name in a deposition submitted to the Chinese court in 484 A.D. is at first sight surprising in view of the general function of Sanskrit in the early centuries of the Christian era as the language of literary communication both within the Indian subcontinent, and abroad, but it is not the only instance of Tamil cultural influence in southern Indo-China during the B'iu-n^.am period, nor is the earliest. In the style of an ancestor of a ruler tributory to B'iu-n^.am who is mentioned on the famous stele from Vo-ca.nh, Filliozat has discerned a tamil royal title (BEFEO, 55, 1969, p.107-116). The ancestor in question appears on the stele as "Sri Maara, which Filliozat has shown, in the context established by the inscription, can only have been a Sanskrit rendering of MaaRan, a frequent element in the titularies of the Pandyan Kings of Madurai" ... Because Tamil Mayentiram is found in China in 484 A.D., Saivism should have flourished in the South India in 3-4rd centuries. Of course, we have Sangam texts and the famous linga from GuDimallam, Tamilnadu (2nd or 1st cent. BC) for proof. Additionally, GaNDavyUha also points to early prevalences of 'Saivism in South India. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 16 16:31:44 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 08:31:44 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043634.23782.1521718195253822188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< To solve the problem of the seeming incompatibilty of the cruel Vedic god and the benign South-Indian 'Siva = avalokitezvara, there are probably more than one way to go. What about the following (not very original or idiosyncratic, I hope) sketch: Let us assume there was a Great (and benign) God (mahAdeva) in the (linguistically Dravidian?) IVC. And the later South-Indian god 'Siva would be a direct successor of this ancient god. When the Aryans arrived (I am stubborn enough to keep to the Aryan invasion theory), they identified their (rather cruel) god Rudra with this native mahAdeva, because 1) both were regarded as powerful and 2) the dreaded god Rudra was not a participant of the Vedic sacrifice and could therefore more easily be identified with a god of non-Vedic origin than any other god they brought with them. When Buddhism arrived in South India, the popular bodhisattva avalokitasvara could without major difficulties be adapted to the benign South-Indian god 'Siva (dakSiNamUrti). >>> Dear Prof. Thiru. G. v. Smimson, I love this model. Thanks for explaining avalokitasvara. I do not know Sanskrit & quoted Har Dayal. But your explanation convinces me. I take that Avalokitasvara is the origin. But Avalokitasvara became Avalokitezvara mainly from South India from early centuries AD. Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 16 14:28:22 1998 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 09:28:22 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043617.23782.1235489096934089258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Due probably to my growing senility I forgot to mention: Rolf Stein, Avalokitezvara/Kouan-yin, un example de transformation d'un dieu en deesse, in Cahiers d'Extreme-Asie 2 (1986): 17-80 [with English summary]. As one would expect, Stein's paper is exhaustive and detailed, -- and reliable! Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 16 15:45:14 1998 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 10:45:14 -0500 Subject: Backup tapes of Indology archives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043632.23782.8573577638830892035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >However, maybe only books printed on acid-free paper will be around in 50 >years. Most of what is published in the 20th century will not survive the >acid and chlorine in its own fibres. Talk to librarians about this if >you feel like getting seriously depressed. All one has to do is pick up a book printed during the war -- 1944 is a good year -- or right after. they are already almost dust (Lin Li-Kouang's L'Aide-Memoire de La Vrai Loi from 1949 is an excellent example -- does one even dare to try to open it? Japanese books printed during the war are wonderful in this respect -- I doubt many of them can even be microfilmed, so brittle are they...) Still, at least the *technology* for reading them exists and will continue to exist into the future ( I *think*!) :-) jonathan Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 16 10:50:10 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 10:50:10 +0000 Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Sankhyakarikas uploaded Message-ID: <161227043613.23782.7983483939604264188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Rusza (f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu) has generously provided the electronic text of the Sankhyakarikas for free download from the INDOLOGY ftp server (ftp://ftp.ucl.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/texts). Rusza's etext is richer than usual, including variant readings from many editions, and an index verborum. I'm sure all INDOLOGY members will join me in thanking Ferenc for his hard work and generosity in making these materials freely available to scholars. DW From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 16 19:15:50 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 11:15:50 -0800 Subject: Locating the Lotus sutra Message-ID: <161227043641.23782.9336240691075957451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> M.T. Mallmann, Avalokitezvara, 1968 p. 35 "32. - Et ce chef AmitAbha, assis sur un trOne-`a-lions (8), dans un p'ericarpe de lotus, immacul'e, charmant, resplendit comme le roi des zAla (9)" "(9) Dans le ch. XXV, on recontre un Tathaagata appel'e zAlendrarAja, le roi des chefs zAla. On peut se demander si cette expression ne pre'serverait pas le souvneir des rois l'egendaires du Dekhan, les zAlavAhana" Are Saatavaahanas also known as Saalavaahanas? Or, is this zAlavaahana different? Does this point to SaddharmapuNDarika being a Southern text? In the Ch. 24 of the Lotus sutra, avalokitezvara's function is to save people from shipwrecks on the sea waters. Saatavaahanas issued coins with big boats (ships?). Are the patrons of SaddharmapuNDarika the sea-faring people of the Southeast India? Any results on the place where Lotus sutra got written? Thanks for your answers. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 16 20:20:55 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 12:20:55 -0800 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043645.23782.8738049015885159050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If it's not too troublesome, could you describe the royal burial > ceremony of the Cholas? Or any other royal family from the South? > Who are ritual functionaries involved in performing the ceremony? For 2000 or more years old funerary practices, some thing is told in: George Hart, The poems of ancient Tamil, their milieu and their sanskrit counterparts, 1975, U.of California press. (ISBN: 0520026721) George's translation of the whole puRanAnURu is in print from Columbia univ. press (1999). >One of them is a potter's son Dhaniya, who being already a Buddhist > monk, uses his familial skills and makes himself a 'house of clay' > - (sabba-)mattikA-mayaM kuTikam. The Pali expression reminds one > of the Vedic mRGmayaM gRham [RV VII,89.1; hymn to Yama]. It's a > highly interesting parallel and I am now preparing a paper on it. >The Pali text (Vinaya II.1.1-2) suggests that this house is not the > typical adobe construction, but rather a large urn - baked and red > in color. On seeing it, the Buddha orders the house of Dhaniya to > be immediately destroyed. Very interesting. Sangam texts, especially puRanAnURu describe burying in large vases. Big vases (like the Greek vases) have been unearthed in AdicchanallUr near Tirunelvely. They are of the same period as Tamil classical sangam texts. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 16 21:04:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 13:04:52 -0800 Subject: AW: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043646.23782.7693998124303880451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How do we link the following to Brahman? May be it can be done. How? Is the concept of Avalokitezvara formulated in the South? Then, Avalokita iizvara would make sense. If it is from the Northwest, then Avalokita-svara. We have only one instance of avalokitasvara and many avalokita-iizvara in manuscripts. For now, I am wondering whether avalokita-iizvara is completely debunked? But Mallmann, L. Chandra, Prof. G. v. Simson, ... avalokita-svara looks plaasible. But if avalokitezvara was formulated in the South (Nagarjuna's Suhrllekha, Lotus sutra are the earliest occurences of Avalokitezvara), I wonder whether avalokita-iizvara is completely later? Just a thought. Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------------------------------- Avalokita Izvara could mean "The Lord of the Percieved (World)" The unpercieved or unpercievable in that case would be nirvANa. Note that Avalokitezvara is also often called Lokezvara, where loka can mean world. All the lokas as parts of saMsAra are percievable for beeings having some kind of senses and 'kaya'. As bodhisattvas are enlightened beeings that renounce to nirvANa and stay in saMsAra, Avalokitezvara would be the Izvara of all but nirvANa. best regards T. Kovacs ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 16 20:08:09 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 14:08:09 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043643.23782.1431622440774762983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:54 PM 12/15/98 -0500, Edwin Bryant wrote: > >To be specific, I am looking for ways in which the discourses of common >Aryan linguistic, cultural and racial ties between the Hindus and >Europeans were appropriated by Hindus for various agendas, ie, to stress >Aryan commonality and therefore equality with the British, or to advocate >Hindu Aryan spiritual superiority over European Aryan materialistic >decadence, or to acknowledge Hindu Aryan material weakness with a view to >soliciting assistance from the European Aryan brethren, etc, etc. > It is funny that how the same data can be interpreted differently and mean different things to various people.... In a message, some time ago, Palaniappan had referred to Dr.Ambedkars writings. The following link might be of interest, to see what Shrikant Talageri had to say to Times of India. http://www.hvk.org/hvk/articles/0996/0030.html A Question: Mallory now uses the term Indo-European Stock - does that mean that Indo-European refers to something more than a language family ? or is there something in linguistics about IE-stock - Could someone please explain ? Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 16 14:32:36 1998 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 14:32:36 +0000 Subject: Q:Raghuuttama, the author of Bhaashyacandra Message-ID: <161227043620.23782.443430771445179504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, does anybody of you know anything about Raghuuttama who wrote a commentary on "Nyaayabhaashya" called "Bhaashyacandra"? He seems to have lived between XIII and XVI cent. a.d. His work was published by MM. G.Jha in Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series (No281) in 1920. Thanks in advance. Sincerely Yours, Dmitry Olenev _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 16 14:58:28 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 14:58:28 +0000 Subject: Backup tapes of Indology archives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043622.23782.5868686188191235699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > how about BOOKS!!! Garn! Of course, you are right. I was thinking of computer media. However, maybe only books printed on acid-free paper will be around in 50 years. Most of what is published in the 20th century will not survive the acid and chlorine in its own fibres. Talk to librarians about this if you feel like getting seriously depressed. All the best, Dominik From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 16 23:01:30 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 15:01:30 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043650.23782.1237089444443338248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: *When Buddhism arrived in South India, the popular *bodhisattva avalokitasvara could without major difficulties *be adapted to the benign South-Indian god 'Siva (dakSiNamUrti). [...] * Is this model still far away from yours? My model would replace the above with something like: "When Mahayana deity Avalokitezvara was developed in South India, the popular bodhisattva avalokitezvara meant to the masses, their always familiar god, iizvara. A small group of learned monks developed the smart explanation on avalokitasvara which can be linked to Brahman, attested earlier as assistant to Buddha. They admitted Avalokitezvara with the satisfaction that A. is after all old assistant to Buddha. This explanation was sometimes carried to Gandhara and China also." Would like to hear your views on this scenario. The two terms might have started concurrently in time - avalokitezvara among the masses, avalokitasvara among a small elite group. The available ratio of svara to iizvara supports this statement. There is only one fragment mss. saying avalokitasvara. The earliest occurences of Avalokitezvara are Southern (saddharmapuNDarika, suhrllekha). GaNDavyUha (2-3rd cent. AD) places Avalokitezvara and Mahadeva right next to each other. It says Avalokitezvara's permanent home is in South India. Devotinal piety was hard to resist by priests or monks. We know for sure the later Hindu bhakti as a mass movement was first established in the Tamil India and spreads northward, both in 'Saivism and Vaishnavism. The foundations of Mahayanism also are from devotional piety stemming from the masses. Avalokitezvara, who is first attested in Southern texts, whose residence is South India may well be a precursor to bhakti movement three centuries later. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Dec 16 15:16:15 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 16:16:15 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043624.23782.11435084048406063926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A small bibliographical detail in the direction of the "Drona connection". "And there is Daruna (sic! A.K.), the Acharaj, the guru of the Pandavas, from whom the Acharaj clan, the Brahmans who accept gifts at deaths and conduct the funerals of the dead, trace their descent. The Kumhars in the same way reverence their prototype Prajapati, whether this implies some human or semi-human progenitor, or refers to Brahm, the Lord of Creatures, the Great Potter who shapes the plastic world". [H.A. Rose, A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, reprinted by Languages Department Punjab 1970, Vol. I, p. 120; more information on Acharajs and Kumhars in Vol. II]. Rose's "Glossary" was compiled basing on the Census Reports for the Punjab 1883 and 1892 by (respectively) Sir Denzil Ibbetson and Sir Edward Maclagan. I believe a lot of useful materials can be found in similar works based on the Census Reports for Bombay, Madras, United Provinces and Bengal. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ------------- Oszcz?dzaj na komunikacji - rozmawiaj przez Internet. Twojemu rozm?wcy wystarczy telefon. www.netphone.pl ------------------------------------------------------- From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Dec 16 15:24:28 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 16:24:28 +0100 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: <19981215231656.5904.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043626.23782.14674278340659709673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri. N. Ganesan, from your many messages on the above topic I should like to quote: > > The Bodhisattva doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit literature, > Har Dayal (author), Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1932 >p. 47 >"It has been objected that avalokita-svara is a queer >sort of compound, which would convey no clear meaning >to an Indian [71]". > >[71] E. J. Thomas, JRAS, 1929, p.359 > What is so queer about a bahuvrIhi "svaro 'valokito yena sa" (he by whom the sound has been perceived)? > I read that "avalokita" is to gaze, to look down, to perceive. > I do not understand why Mahayanists would coin a name >"to look down at the Sounds (svara)". Rather, >"One who hears sounds of the world" sounds natural. But ava-lok- usually does not mean "to look down", but "to look at, perceive". One could object, of course, that sound and the root ava-lok-, to see, perceive, do not fit together. But didn't the Vedic RSis see (paz-) the Veda, which is sound? See about this subject J. Gonda, The Vision of the Vedic poets. And svara, meaning more specifically the Vedic accent, would indeed point into the direction of the god Brahman, whose chief wife was the goddess svarA (for reference see Shabdakalpadruma) so that (if the myth is old enough, which by no means is certain) avalokitasvara might also mean "He by whom svarA has been looked at/perceived". See also the compound svarabrahman, "brahman as manifested in sound: the sacred texts", BhAgavatapurANa (see Monier-Williams). And for the Buddhists such a compound with -svara in the end, preceded by a ppp. would probably not sound peculiar, see e.g. the name of a Bodhisattva in Gandavyuha 4.9: sAgaranigarjitasvara (acc. to Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Skt. Dict.). > Before Hsuan Tsang's times, are there any > Buddhist sanskrit texts where avalokitezvara > is linked to Brahma but not 'Siva in the same text? > It will be good for the theory of avaolokita-svara > originating from Brahma if there is an earlier strata of texts > where avalokitezvara is linked to Brahma > and not 'Siva. If avalokitasvara, as Lokesh Chandra has made probable, is a further development of brahman, you cannot expect that the two are mentioned together. Concerning the form avalokita-Izvara, this compund, on the other hand, looks more odd to me. Because almost all compounds having Izvara as the second member are genitive tatpurushas, like gaNezvara, nandIzvara, yogezvara etc. But what should *avalokitasya/avalokitAnAm Izvara mean? Is it not easier to assume that the name was changed (after the prestige of the god Brahman had declined and 'Siva had risen to the most prominent place) so that the name reminded more of this latter god? Because Izvara like Iza are indeed often used to designate 'Siva. > >I would rather take the Japanese Scholar Daiyo Goto's >and Har Dayal's view that Avalokitezvara is the original >Indian name. Chinese translator KumarajIva delinks >the 'Saivaite connection at 400 AD. Hsuan Tsang (630 AD), the >Pilgrim Prince makes the necessary correction to restore >Avalokitezvara. > If you are firmly determined not to give up your theory of the *original* identity of avalokitezvara and ziva (do I understand you right?), you can, of course, follow this idea of KumArajIva delinking the zaivite connection which than later on was restored by Hsuan Tsang - to me it sounds a bit far-fetched. >Sanskrit texts portray 'Siva as horrifying and terrorful. >Further we go back in time, 'Siva appears to be more >terrible according to Sanskrit texts. May be 'Siva is >a late incomer into Vedic Aryan society. > >But 'Siva is very benign in Classical Sangam texts; >A joyous dancer all the time in Tamil texts. >He is very compassionate in literally 1000s >of poems in the Tamil Saiva texts (from 5th century). >Tamil stalapurANams, 1200 in all, must contain >about 200,000 extant viruttams on 'Siva. Even their >surface has not been scratched academically. > >"anbE 'Sivam" - Lord 'Siva is Love, Tirumantiram, 5-6th century. >"appan nI, ammai nI, anbuDaiya maaman nI .." tEvAram (7th century). > - Lord 'Siva is my father, my mother, my beloved > maternal uncle. To solve the problem of the seeming incompatibilty of the cruel Vedic god and the benign South-Indian 'Siva = avalokitezvara, there are probably more than one way to go. What about the following (not very original or idiosyncratic, I hope) sketch: Let us assume there was a Great (and benign) God (mahAdeva) in the (linguistically Dravidian?) IVC. And the later South-Indian god 'Siva would be a direct successor of this ancient god. When the Aryans arrived (I am stubborn enough to keep to the Aryan invasion theory), they identified their (rather cruel) god Rudra with this native mahAdeva, because 1) both were regarded as powerful and 2) the dreaded god Rudra was not a participant of the Vedic sacrifice and could therefore more easily be identified with a god of non-Vedic origin than any other god they brought with them. When Buddhism arrived in South India, the popular bodhisattva avalokitasvara could without major difficulties be adapted to the benign South-Indian god 'Siva (dakSiNamUrti). We all have to invent our models of understanding the hard, chaotic, and unstructured reality (like archaeological finds, text-fragments from Central Asia and so on). Is this model still far away from yours? Best regards, Georg v. Simson From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Dec 16 15:36:56 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 16:36:56 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043630.23782.5604052094395652694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:36 13.12.98 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >Here, the poet asks a potter who is making the burial urn to inter the Chola >king, "O potter (kO)! who makes the pot...> ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dr. Palaniappan, If it's not too troublesome, could you describe the royal burial ceremony of the Cholas? Or any other royal family from the South? Who are ritual functionaries involved in performing the ceremony? Now - returning to the potters. The Pali TipiTaka knows quite a number of them, and I believe it would be worthwhile to have a closer look at all those personages. One of them is a potter's son Dhaniya, who being already a Buddhist monk, uses his familial skills and makes himself a 'house of clay' - (sabba-)mattikA-mayaM kuTikam. The Pali expression reminds one of the Vedic mRGmayaM gRham [RV VII,89.1; hymn to Yama]. It's a highly interesting parallel and I am now preparing a paper on it. The Pali text (Vinaya II.1.1-2) suggests that this house is not the typical adobe construction, but rather a large urn - baked and red in color. On seeing it, the Buddha orders the house of Dhaniya to be immediately destroyed. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland P.S. I would be very grateful to the members of the Indology List for bibliographical directions concerning the possible history of the 'house of clay' problem. A.K. ------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ------------- Oszcz?dzaj na komunikacji - rozmawiaj przez Internet. Twojemu rozm?wcy wystarczy telefon. www.netphone.pl ------------------------------------------------------- From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 16 23:16:37 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 18:16:37 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043652.23782.14003115351243537908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/16/98 2:10:42 PM Central Standard Time, sns at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > It is funny that how the same data can be interpreted differently > and mean different things to various people.... > In a message, some time ago, Palaniappan had referred > to Dr.Ambedkars writings. Since the time I mentioned Dr. Ambedkar's writings, I have come across a book, "Indigenous Indians: Agastya to Ambedkar" by Koenraad Elst, first published in 1993 by Voice of India. This is a pro-Indigenous Aryan viewpoint. Has anybody reviewed this work? There is a chapter called "Dr. Ambedkar: A True Aryan". Regards S. Palaniappan From Kovacst at LIBRARY.ETHZ.CH Wed Dec 16 17:34:34 1998 From: Kovacst at LIBRARY.ETHZ.CH (Tibor Kovacs) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 18:34:34 +0100 Subject: AW: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043638.23782.6328237795786539737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning the form avalokita-Izvara, this compund, on the other hand, looks more odd to me. Because almost all compounds having Izvara as the second member are genitive tatpurushas, like gaNezvara, nandIzvara, yogezvara etc. But what should *avalokitasya/avalokitAnAm Izvara mean? Is it not easier to assume that the name was changed (after the prestige of the god Brahman had declined and 'Siva had risen to the most prominent place) so that the name reminded more of this latter god? Because Izvara like Iza are indeed often used to designate 'Siva. Georg v. Simson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Avalokita Izvara could mean "The Lord of the Percieved (World)" The unpercieved or unpercievable in that case would be nirvANa. Note that Avalokitezvara is also often called Lokezvara, where loka can mean world. All the lokas as parts of saMsAra are percievable for beeings having some kind of senses and 'kaya'. As bodhisattvas are enlightened beeings that renounce to nirvANa and stay in saMsAra, Avalokitezvara would be the Izvara of all but nirvANa. best regards T. Kovacs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2412 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 17 03:37:16 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 19:37:16 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043654.23782.14689256727109125023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About Koenraad Elst, of Belgium, I think Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote in Indology long ago. Pl. search the archives. Mr. Elst is a curious phenomenon, acc. to that Indology posting. Mr. Elst was touring US Hindu temples, his speech was full of polemics against Muslims and very appealing to Neo-Hindus. He is rarely seen nowadays. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcv at WXS.NL Wed Dec 16 22:00:21 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 22:00:21 +0000 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981216140809.009352d0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227043648.23782.6459889497401380560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SNS wrote: >A Question: Mallory now uses the term Indo-European Stock >- does that mean that Indo-European refers to something more than >a language family ? or is there something in linguistics about >IE-stock - Could someone please explain ? I haven't seen Mallory use that term, but in any case it's not common practice. I suppose it depends on how one defines a language "family" as against a language "stock". I you take "stock" simply as a "family of families", then IE qualifies (since it consists of families like Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Indo-Iranian, etc.) But that would make Indo-Iranian a "stock" as well, which would definitely be an eccentric usage of the term. If you take "stock" as a term for a group of sufficiently distinct / remote branches, IE qualifies if you accept the Indo-Hittite hypothesis (IE would then consist of the Anatolian language family on the one hand, and Indo-European "proper" on the other). But what is "sufficiently distinct"? In glottochronology, a "family" was defined as a group of languages sharing 26~35% of cognates (corresponding to a separation of 35~45 centuries), and a "stock" or "phylum" as a group sharing only 14~19% of cognates (corresponding to a separation of 55~65 centuries). But glottochronology has been disproved. We might still take the % of cognates as a rule of thumb for distinguishing between families and stocks, but the "centuries of separation" are definitely out. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 17 13:01:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 05:01:20 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043665.23782.17957942478263473980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Bryant, Like you, Dr. B. R. Ambedkar went to Columbia university for a PhD. In addition to his writings, please check into the Dravidian reaction for Aryan appropriations by E. V. Ramasamy Naicker (Periyar). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 17 13:07:39 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 05:07:39 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043671.23782.16454211091202153980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read the Times of India piece cited by Mr. S. N. Subrahmanya. Interesting piece from Editor's desk on S. Talageri's work. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------- Times of India 9 September 1996 Title : The Aryan Issue Author : Shrikant G Talageri Publication : The Times of India Date : September 9, 1996 [...] If the Indian homeland theory is to be branded a "pet Hindutva theory", may we call the foreign homeland theory, supported by Tilak and Savarkar as well as Phadke and Date, a "pet Brahmin theory"? Shrikant G Talageri Mumbai ----------------------------------------------- Our Correspondent replies: Mr Talageri seems to be needlessly worked up over a single paragraph in my report. He cannot deny that the main concern of the Hindutva forces on the Aryans were originally the inhabitants of India. It is very important to them politically. I was referring to the Hindutva forces of today. The view of Tilak and Savarkar cited by Mr Talageri are irrelevant in this context. Editor, Times of India. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 17 13:44:18 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 05:44:18 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043673.23782.4514489887794142105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Lokesh Chandra's point of departure are the two companions of Buddha in early Buddhist mythology (in which rudra-ziva does not yet play any part): zakra (indra) as lord of the sky, and brahmA sahAMpati as lord of the earth (sahA). Later, when the buddha was seen as amitAbha, the two companions became the bodhisattvas mahAsthAmaprApta and avalokitasvara, "He by whom the Sound (svara, word, logos) is perceived". >>> In the Lotus Sutra of KumArajIva's translation (400 AD), Avalokitasvara (avalokitezvara in available Sanskrit maunscripts) is larger than either Brahma or Zakra. "If they need King Brahma to be saved, immediately he becomes King Brahma and preaches the Law for them; If they need lord Shakra to be saved, immediately he becomes lord Shakra and preaches the Law for them" (p. 301, Burton Watson's translation, Columbia UP, 1993) Clearly, Avalokitezvara does not appear to be direct descendant of Brahma in the Lotus sutra from the above statement. He is, in fact, a greater god larger than Powers of Sky (Indra) or Earth (Brahma). This Lotus sutra quote clearly acknowledges Brahma and Zakra, the Earth and Sky powers, as early attendents to AmitAbha. But both are much lower in stature compared to Avalokitezvara. Textually, Avalokitezvara's appearance is Southern. Nagarjuna in Suhrllekha to Gotamiputra SatakarNi advises the King to pray to Avalokitezvara and AmitAbha. The Lotus sutra (2nd century AD) has the first detailed description of Avalokitezvara. Lotus sutra contains passages that point to a Southern origin. GaNDavyUha, a Southern text, places Avalokitezvara and 'Siva Mahadeva right next to each other. This should be quite significant. >?From the time Buddhism arrived in South India, 2nd century AD, Avalokitezvara is linked to 'Siva (Izvara). I realize that one or two Avalokitezvaras have been found in Gandhara in 2-3rd centuries (first published by Ananda Coomaraswamy.) At the same time as SaddharmapuNDarika and GaNDavyUha. That is the nature of development of Indian art history. May be contemporaneous Southern, not so elaborate, Avalokitezvaras were made in wood, but not available today. Note that the first bronze ever found in South India is a Pallava avalokitezvara (5th century AD). It is published in C. SivaramamUrti, South Indian bronzes, 1963. In South India, devotional piety (later this developed into Hindu bhakti movement) is what made Mahayana buddhism acceptable. From second century AD, 'Siva-Avalokitezvara syncretism developed, much before KumArajIva or Central Asian sutra fragments. There is no earlier occurence of avalokitasvara than avalokitezvara occurences I gave. A humble request for Dr. Jonathan Silk: Can you please summarize the 1936 avalokita/apalokita and the R. Stein's paper some time for me please? Within the next 2 months is fine for me. Regards, N. Ganesan Note: In all the Avalokitezvara works, I would rather doubt that the Southern Indian dimension will be explored at all. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 17 15:04:12 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 07:04:12 -0800 Subject: candana references Message-ID: <161227043675.23782.13924200423753972664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please provide me the names of articles, book(?)etc., on sandalwood (candana) in Samskrit literature. Am I right that in early Sanskrit texts, whenever candana occurs, it is usually associated with the Malaya mountain range. Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From info at TICONSOLE.NL Thu Dec 17 08:23:08 1998 From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 09:23:08 +0100 Subject: Tea Message-ID: <161227043655.23782.14019592510427123000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote >I do not know if Tibetan Tea has sugar or salt. > Is salt added really? I would think milk > will get spoiled, unless one drinks salty > tea soon after its preparation. > Want to read on the recipes of salty Tibetan tea. Well, it's not milk they use, but butter, made of yak-milk. This is a high-fat type of milk. Butter consists of far more fat than proteins, so salt doesn't spoil the structure. But you are right as to the moment of drinking this tea: immediately after its preparation. I guess this has something to do with the emulsion. Sandra van der Geer Kern Institute Leiden info at ticonsole.nl From zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Thu Dec 17 08:49:59 1998 From: zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 09:49:59 +0100 Subject: Rasaratnasamuccaya Message-ID: <161227043657.23782.5552764456529054789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should be most grateful for information on the following: An English translation of Vagabhata's _Rasaratnasamuccaya_ was published serially as a supplement to the Indian Journal of History of Science from 1987-1992 (?). I would like to know the extent of the work. Was it completed or not? And which chapters were published in which volumes of the IJHS. With much appreciation, Ken Zysk -- Kenneth G. Zysk University of Copenhagen Department of Asian Studies Leifsgade 33, 5 DK-Copenhagen S Denmark Phone: +45.35.32.88.32 FAX: +45.53.32.88.35 Email: zysk at coco.ihi.ku.dk From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Dec 17 18:40:57 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 10:40:57 -0800 Subject: candana references Message-ID: <161227043677.23782.14097728754589884654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Please provide me the names of articles, book(?)etc., > on sandalwood (candana) in Samskrit literature. > > Am I right that in early Sanskrit texts, whenever > candana occurs, it is usually associated with > the Malaya mountain range. > Is the Malaya mountain range in South India an important producer of candana? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Dec 17 18:44:35 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 10:44:35 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043679.23782.7563417605734219337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Talageri's letter, he claimed that the Hindutva side did not hold the position that Indo-European languages originated in India. Does anyone know where they do believe IE came from? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala N. Ganesan wrote: > > I read the Times of India piece cited by Mr. S. N. Subrahmanya. > Interesting piece from Editor's desk on S. Talageri's work. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > ------------------------------------- > > Times of India > 9 September 1996 > > Title : The Aryan Issue > Author : Shrikant G Talageri > Publication : The Times of India > Date : September 9, 1996 > > [...] > If the Indian homeland theory is to be branded a "pet > Hindutva theory", may we call the foreign homeland > theory, supported by Tilak and Savarkar as well as Phadke > and Date, a "pet Brahmin theory"? > Shrikant G Talageri > Mumbai > ----------------------------------------------- > Our Correspondent replies: Mr Talageri seems to be > needlessly worked up over a single paragraph in my > report. He cannot deny that the main concern of the > Hindutva forces on the Aryans were originally the > inhabitants of India. It is very important to them > politically. I was referring to the Hindutva forces of > today. The view of Tilak and Savarkar cited by Mr > Talageri are irrelevant in this context. > > Editor, Times of India. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 17 17:53:30 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 11:53:30 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <369121a2.515152279@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227043681.23782.118478851104596025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I haven't seen Mallory use that term, but in any case it's not common >practice. Mallory, A European Perspective on Indo-Europeans in Asia. " One of the most frequently violated principles of establishing the homeland of the Indo-Europeans states that there can be no solution to the IE homeland problem that does not solve the distribution of all the Indo-European stocks. In the history of research into Indo-European origins, a traditional dichotomy has generally been proposed between the Asiatic Indo-European stocks (Indo-Iranian,Tocharian) and those of Europe. This has governed discussion of both the economy and the historical trajectories of the various IE stocks. " Could anyone please provide references that deal with proof or provide sufficient reason to believe that there was one PIE language and one PIE homeland. Also, what are the characteristics of this IE homeland that would help in identifying and confirming this homeland archeologically. Coz, without such a specification there can be no end to the search of this hypothetical homeland. Also, if there is something that can be identified archeologically, then the very idea the IE merely refers to a language family is wrong. So, is there a solution to this problem ? Are the initial fundamental assumptions correct ? Is Mallory right in assuming that IE has to mean something more than just a language family and is more of a Culture - because he now has a Encyclopedia of IE Culture !!. (the usage of the term IE 'stock', which has all kinds of 19th century connotations, is also puzzling). So is IE now accepted as a culture ? > > We might still take the % of >cognates as a rule of thumb for distinguishing between families and >stocks, but the "centuries of separation" are definitely out. > Yet another question: How does one distinguish between what is genetic and what is due to borrowing when many languages are adjacent to each other for a long time?. It seems to me that in such cases, it just depends on the whims of the scholars involved or majority acceptance. I ask these questions because I do not know the answer and are not rhetorical. Answers will be greatly appreciated. Regards, Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 17 19:56:28 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 11:56:28 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043692.23782.14645310498231911894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashish Chandra wrote: <<<< Just like N.Ganesan, I am adamantly holding on to the view that Aryan means noble and that it does not refer to race. The Vedic people are our ancestors and I will never believe that Indians came from anywhere but the Sarasvati region. Call me Hindutvavadi or whatever. >>>> Dear Asish, I want to know what view N. Ganesan is adamantly holding. I usually give reasons, quotations from academic works, references along with what I say. You said in Indology that Dravid is used in Sanskrit in the meaning of "Wealth". Simply this is not true, according to great Indian Sanskrit vidhvans. Of course, we can create one today. N. Ganesan, PhD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Thu Dec 17 12:14:08 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 13:14:08 +0100 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara In-Reply-To: <19981216230131.27535.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043660.23782.1605136961492268045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: >*When Buddhism arrived in South India, the popular >*bodhisattva avalokitasvara could without major difficulties >*be adapted to the benign South-Indian god 'Siva (dakSiNamUrti). >[...] >* Is this model still far away from yours? > > My model would replace the above with something like: > >"When Mahayana deity Avalokitezvara was developed in >South India, the popular bodhisattva avalokitezvara >meant to the masses, their always familiar god, iizvara. A small >group of learned monks developed the smart explanation >on avalokitasvara which can be linked to Brahman, >attested earlier as assistant to Buddha. They admitted >Avalokitezvara with the satisfaction that A. is after all old >assistant to Buddha. This explanation was sometimes carried to >Gandhara and China also." > > Would like to hear your views on this scenario. > >The two terms might have started concurrently in time - >avalokitezvara among the masses, avalokitasvara among >a small elite group. The available ratio of svara to >iizvara supports this statement. There is only one >fragment mss. saying avalokitasvara. > >The earliest occurences of Avalokitezvara are Southern >(saddharmapuNDarika, suhrllekha). > >GaNDavyUha (2-3rd cent. AD) places Avalokitezvara and >Mahadeva right next to each other. It says Avalokitezvara's >permanent home is in South India. > >Devotinal piety was hard to resist by priests or monks. >We know for sure the later Hindu bhakti as a mass movement >was first established in the Tamil India and spreads >northward, both in 'Saivism and Vaishnavism. The foundations of > Mahayanism also are from devotional piety stemming >from the masses. Avalokitezvara, who is first attested >in Southern texts, whose residence is South India >may well be a precursor to bhakti movement three >centuries later. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > It might very well be that you are right. The reason for my entering this discussion was that I remembered Lokesh Chandra's theory and just wondered whether in the meantime anybody had refuted it (I have not read all the literature Jonathan Silk was kind enough to draw our attention to, because MahAyAna Buddhism is not my field of study). The evidence for avalokitasvara seems to be weak indeed, and if there were not the Chinese translation "Kuan Yin", which seems to confirm it, one could perhaps follow M. Deshpande's suggestion (see 15 Dec.) and try to eliminate the problem by finding a Prakrit explanation. In one of the manuscripts from Central Asia (to be dated around 500 AD), a protection magic (vidyA) written in a hybrid language and unregulated orthography (published in Sanskrithandschriften aus den Turfanfunden, Ed. by E. Waldschmidt, Vol. 3, Wiesbaden, 1971, Ms. no. 844) we find the formula: namo buddhAya dharmAya sa(M)ghAya arya-(a)palokidasvaraya (sic! some lines later we read: aryavalok(i)t(...) bodhisatvaya) mahasatvaya sarvvakarmasadhakaya abhayadataya! ("Obeisance to the Buddha, the dharma, the sangha, to the noble Apalokidasvara, (the bodhisatva), the great being who accomplishes all works (finishes all karma?) and grants safety"). Allow me to withdraw from the discussion with this pious little contribution! Regards, G.v.Simson From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 17 19:24:40 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 13:24:40 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <369f4a6c.591141964@mail.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227043689.23782.9203694278613257604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It was announced (e.g. in the Bibliography of Beekes, op.cit.) as >"Encyclopaedia of IE Studies". I cannot find either title at >amazon.com. > Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture by James Mallory (Editor), D. Q. Adams (Editor) Our Price: $135.00 Hardcover illustrate edition (October 1997) Fitzroy Dearborn Publishers; ISBN: 1884964982 *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From indologie at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Thu Dec 17 12:25:02 1998 From: indologie at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (=?utf-8?Q?Indologie_T=C3=BCbingen?=) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 13:25:02 +0100 Subject: Job announcemnt Message-ID: <161227043662.23782.15698159736361521276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> EBERHARD-KARLS-UNIVERSIT?T Seminar f?r Indologie und Vergleichende Religionswissenschaft Abt.: Indologie M?nzgasse 30 D - 72070 T?bingen Tel.: 07071/2972675 Fax: 07071/292675 e-mail: indologie at uni-tuebingen.de Am Seminar f?r Indologie und Vergleichende Religionswissenschaft (Abteilung Indologie) der Universit?t T?bingen ist zum 1. April 1999 die Stelle eines / einer WISSENSCHAFTLICHEN ASSISTENTEN / ASSISTENTIN (C 1) zu besetzen. Das Dienstverh?ltnis wird zun?chst auf drei Jahre begr?ndet und kann bei Vorliegen der Voraussetzungen des ?71 Abs.1 UG auf h?chstens sechs Jahre verl?ngert werden. Zu den Dienstaufgaben des Stelleninhabers / der Stelleninhaberin geh?ren Lehre, Forschung und Verwaltung: Ein Lehrdeputat von vier Wochenstunden; selbst?ndige Forschung mit dem Ziel der Habilitation; Assistenz in Forschung und Lehre der Fachvertreter; verantwortliche Betreuung der Seminarbibliothek (kein Bibliothekar, keine Bibliothekskraft vorhanden); Teilbereiche der Haushaltsverwaltung. Einstellungsvoraussetzung ist die Promotion. Vorausgesetzt werden sehr gute Kenntnisse des klassischen Sanskrit sowie Vertrautheit mit den vedischen und mittelindischen Sprachstufen. Erw?nscht ist die Kenntnis einer neuindischen Sprache und/oder des Tibetischen. Es wird erwartet, da? der/die k?nftige Stelleninhaber/in seinen/ihren Hauptwohnsitz nach T?bingen verlegt und w?hrend seiner/ihrer gesamten Arbeitszeit im Seminar f?r Indologie pr?sent ist. Die Universit?t T?bingen strebt eine Erh?hung des Anteils von Frauen in Forschung und Lehre an und fordert deshalb entsprechend qualifizierte Wissenschaftlerinnen nachdr?cklich auf, sich zu bewerben. Schwerbehinderte werden bei gleicher Eignung vorrangig ber?cksichtigt. Bewerber/innen werden gebeten, ihre Unterlagen (Bewerbungsschreiben, Lebenslauf, Schriftenverzeichnis, Verzeichnis der bisher gehaltenen Lehrveranstaltungen, Promotionsurkunde) bis zum 1. Februar 1999 einzureichen: An die Direktorin des Seminars f?r Indologie und Vergleichende Religionswissenschaft (Abt. Indologie) der Universit?t T?bingen, M?nzgasse 30, 72070 T?bingen. Die Auswahlgespr?che finden zwischen dem 8. und 12. Februar 1999 in T?bingen statt. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 17 21:36:47 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 13:36:47 -0800 Subject: Potala in the Near East!! Message-ID: <161227043696.23782.4835322505550085450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See Mallmann's work on Avalokitezvara. Despite GaNDavUha and Xuanzang saying that Potalaka, the home of Avalokitezvara, is situated in the Malaya mountains' verdantly green and tropical rain forests, earlier attempts were made to trace Potalaka to 'Garden of Eden', the paradise of the Near East!!! Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 17 18:40:55 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 13:40:55 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043685.23782.1696223726346075777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Manansala wrote : In Talageri's letter, he claimed that the Hindutva side did not hold the position that Indo-European languages originated in India. Does anyone know where they do believe IE came from? If you mean the IE languages, there is a belief that language itself grew because of peoples' interactions and not because there was some commonality of stock. As for IE people, the RgVedic people (wrongly referred to as being Aryans) were the original inhabitants of the land around Sarasvati river. Where di they come from, no one knows. But there was certainly no move from Europe or Caspian Sea into the land of the seven rivers. Just like N.Ganesan, I am adamantly holding on to the view that Aryan means noble and that it does not refer to race. The Vedic people are our ancestors and I will never believe that Indians came from anywhere but the Sarasvati region. Call me Hindutvavadi or whatever. Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 17 21:47:45 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 16:47:45 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043738.23782.13796041980181089274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar Ganesan and others, I had said that I would quota a Sanskrit sloka that had mentioned the word Dravidam as meaning wealth. When I had sent that to you, you wrote back saying that Dravida was coined by someone named Caldwell who used the following : Tamizh -> Damila -> Dramila -> Dramida. Robert Caldwell coined the term, Dravidian from Dramida which means Tamil in Sanskrit. I also aked you to give me the name of the Sanskrit dictionary that mentions Dramida as Tamil. I am not disagreeing with this but the one I have does not have the word Dramida. I have the mails if you need them. You had also mentioned that Sankaracharya had called a Tamil saint as Dramida. I think I had asked you some questions to which you did not respond. There is also no need to take this as an attack on yourself as I was merely quoting you, not twisting your words. I have sent you Baltuch's mail in that context. Regards Ashish From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 17 17:55:06 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 17:55:06 +0000 Subject: Rasaratnasamuccaya In-Reply-To: <3678C5B7.8AD647E9@coco.ihi.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227043683.23782.1587131343292699579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It was all published (text and tr.), and then reissued as a single bound volume by the INSA, I believe. We've got all the journal issues here at the Wellcome. If you *really* want, I'll go and find out which ones they are. All the best, Dominik From mcv at WXS.NL Thu Dec 17 19:08:02 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 19:08:02 +0000 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981217115330.00954b10@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227043687.23782.16807515456143360197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SNS wrote: >Mallory, A European Perspective on Indo-Europeans in Asia. >" One of the most frequently violated principles of establishing >the homeland of the Indo-Europeans states that there can be no >solution to the IE homeland problem that does not solve the >distribution of all the Indo-European stocks. In the history >of research into Indo-European origins, a traditional dichotomy >has generally been proposed between the Asiatic Indo-European >stocks (Indo-Iranian,Tocharian) and those of Europe. This has >governed discussion of both the economy and the historical >trajectories of the various IE stocks. " Odd. I would definitely have used the term "subgroup" or "branch" here. >Could anyone please provide references that deal with proof >or provide sufficient reason to believe >that there was one PIE language and one PIE homeland. Brugmann, K. (& B. Delbrueck), "Vergleichende Grammatik der Indogermanischen Sprachen" vols. I-V, Strassburg 1897-1916 Meillet, A. "Introduction a` l'e'tude comparative des langues indo-europe'ennes", Paris 1937 Szemere'nyi, O. "Einfuehrung in die vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft", Darmstadt, 1989 Beekes, R.S.P. "Comparative Indo-European Linguistics", Amsterdam/Philadelphia, 1995. Etcetera... There is simply overwhelming evidence that a Proto-Indo-European language once existed in a certain area during a certain period of time. There is no other way to explain the countless similarities and exact correspondences between the different IE languages. Of course it never was *one* PIE language at *one* single coordinate: different dialects were always in existence, and in fact we can be pretty specific about the features of the different dialects as well. And obviously the PIE dialects changed in the course of time, allowing us to distinguish between features that are pre-PIE, early PIE, late PIE etc. It is sometimes claimed that this wholly natural lack of precision (no *single* PIE at a *single* place) invalidates the PIE hypothesis. If there never was a single unified PIE language, then why assume PIE existed at all? Well, why assume English exists at all? There isn't and never was a single unified English language at a single spot. But it's still meaningful to talk about the abstraction we call the "English language". >Is Mallory right in assuming that IE has to mean something more >than just a language family and is more of a Culture - >because he now has a Encyclopedia of IE Culture !!. It was announced (e.g. in the Bibliography of Beekes, op.cit.) as "Encyclopaedia of IE Studies". I cannot find either title at amazon.com. >Yet another question: >How does one distinguish between what is genetic and what is >due to borrowing when many languages are adjacent to each other >for a long time? It depends on whether the languages that are adjacent are (genetically) related to each other in the first place. If we have a group of closely related languages, it is often difficult to distinguish borrowings from cognates, especially if interborrowing goes on for an extended period of time. If the languages are not related, or only remotely related (no mutual intellegibility), it is easy to sort out the borrowings from the rest. The borrowings will be very different from the inherited items, show ad-hoc adapatations to the phonology of the borrowing language, often violate phonotactic constraints in the borrowing language, etc. etc. It is very easy to recognize French borrowings into English, harder to recognize Old Norse borrowings, often very hard to recognize items borrowed from other dialects, like Mercian or Kentish. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Fri Dec 18 04:52:24 1998 From: zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 20:52:24 -0800 Subject: Rasaratnasamuccaya Message-ID: <161227043691.23782.1764543870974872948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dom: A student in the department went to India, and while there obtain for me the translation in the separate volumes, as the one volume edition and trans is no longer available. This is what he got for me: Edition and trans of Rasaratnasamuccaya, chapters 1-8 (1987-89, with nothing published in 1989). My question is: Were any more chapters published that I don't have. If so, which ones, so I can have the student obtain those. The single volume edition was published in 1991-92, so no more chapters could have appeared after that. Thanks for the help. Ken From mcv at WXS.NL Thu Dec 17 21:04:41 1998 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 21:04:41 +0000 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981217132440.00952dc0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227043694.23782.13991897378083045163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SNS wrote: >>It was announced (e.g. in the Bibliography of Beekes, op.cit.) as >>"Encyclopaedia of IE Studies". I cannot find either title at >>amazon.com. >> >Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture >by James Mallory (Editor), D. Q. Adams (Editor) >Our Price: $135.00 >Hardcover illustrate edition (October 1997) >Fitzroy Dearborn Publishers; ISBN: 1884964982 Correct. My mistake, I had searched for "Mallory, J.P.". Frankly, I don't think that's a meaningful title. We can reconstruct the PIE language, but I'm very sceptical of "Indo-European culture". To take the analogy with English again: if we didn't have the Old English documents, what would modern English vocabulary and culture(s) tell us about the culture of the Anglo-Saxons of AD 500? Not much, I think. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Fri Dec 18 04:10:40 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 23:10:40 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043701.23782.17012415839682331787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > > > What is lost in some translations of the Mbh (I haven't checked Van > Buitenen though) is the fact that the text of the SvayaMvaraparvan calls > the potter at first kumbhakAra and then bhArgava [kumbhakAra(sya zAlAyAM), I wonder if this word has spread to the neighborhood in the form of "kumbara" meaning "piggy bank". Does this word exist in Iranian or Arabic? -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Dec 18 06:12:50 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 01:12:50 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043705.23782.1012173057602400333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Karp, In a message dated 12/16/98 9:46:04 AM Central Standard Time, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: > If it's not too troublesome, could you describe the royal burial ceremony > of the Cholas? Or any other royal family from the South? Who are ritual > functionaries involved in performing the ceremony? On a quick checking of Tamil texts I do not find a detailed description of the burial ceremony listing the functionaries. (We have more details of cremation ceremonies.) The use of the word "kavi" to denote interment in an urn indicates that the pots were "inverted" over the body. This suggests that the body was probably in a sitting posture. There is evidence that the pots were also left standing above ground (patRRuppattu 44.22-23, puRanAn2URu 238.1-5). The installation/worship of hero stones are described in more poems. (The story of a Chola king, kOpperuJcOzan2, who starved himself to death facing north and accompanied by other poets, is an interesting one.) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Dec 18 06:33:29 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 01:33:29 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043707.23782.15619327684005400003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Karp, In a message dated 12/16/98 9:46:04 AM Central Standard Time, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: > Now - returning to the potters. The Pali TipiTaka knows quite a number of > them, and I believe it would be worthwhile to have a closer look at all > those personages. > > One of them is a potter's son Dhaniya, who being already a Buddhist monk, > uses his familial skills and makes himself a 'house of clay' - > (sabba-)mattikA-mayaM kuTikam. The Pali expression reminds one of the Vedic > mRGmayaM gRham [RV VII,89.1; hymn to Yama]. It's a highly interesting > parallel and I am now preparing a paper on it. > > The Pali text (Vinaya II.1.1-2) suggests that this house is not the typical > adobe construction, but rather a large urn - baked and red in color. On > seeing it, the Buddha orders the house of Dhaniya to be immediately > destroyed. > The following is part of a posting of mine titled "potters, philosophers, and kings", dated November 5, 1997. "In an earlier posting, I had cited a reference in jAbAla upaniSad which included the potter?s shed as one of the places of stay of seers/philosophers. As I investigate the connection between potters and philosophers, more interesting facts keep appearing. PaiGgala upaniSad 1.12 says, "The Omniscient lord possessed of a particle of mAyA, on entering the several bodies and getting deluded by it attained the state of the individual soul. By identification with the three bodies (gross, subtle and causal) he attained the state of the doer and the enjoyer, ever performing the functions of waking, dreaming, sleeping, fainting and dying, he twirls round and round, like a potter?s wheel, as if dead though alive, in keeping with the adage relating to the potter?s wheel." (I wonder what the adage is.) We also find that gozAla maskarIputra, the founder of the AjIvika sect lived in the shed of a female potter in the city of ZrAavastI. Prince siddhArta on his renunciation was supposed to have received the outward marks of an arhant from the demi-god ghaTikAra. (ghaTikAra means "potter".) In a story in samyutta nikAya, when a buddhist monk , vakkali, falls ill, he is moved to a potter?s workshop and Buddha visits him there. In another story, Buddha taught pukkusAti the noble the sutta of the system of elements in the house of a potter." Please also check the following postings of mine in the Indology archives. There are other related postings as well. 97/11/06 Question on bhRgus 97/11/08 Re: Question on bhRgus 98/04/25 Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters When the mahAbhArata potter is called bhArgava, there is no "disguise". As you will note from the above postings, the bhRgus were Dravidian potter-priest- warriors who adopted IA culture quite early. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Dec 18 06:41:58 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 01:41:58 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043708.23782.12269508196893921575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/17/98 8:39:25 PM Central Standard Time, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: > Just to make sure that the reader sees through the potter's 'disguise', the > commentary to the Kumbakonam edition of the Mbh (Srimanmahabharatam..., I, > Bombay 1906, p. 350) takes care to explain bhArgavavezma (abode of BhRguid) > as kulAlagRhaM (house of potter). In fact, the Tamil villipAratam (mahAbhArata by the poet villi) explicitly says that the pANDavas arrived at the house of a potter (kulAlan2) in the following words: ....Or kulAlan2atu irukkai cErntAr (villipAratam 5.21.4) Regards S. Palaniappan From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Dec 18 02:34:01 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 03:34:01 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <8a7428cc.367495de@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227043699.23782.3013218213902606310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:36 13.12.98 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >It seems as though the social separation of >brahmins from potters had not been completed at the time.The Mahabharata >episode where the pANDavas disguised as brahmins staying in a potter's house >also seems to reflect this. What is lost in some translations of the Mbh (I haven't checked Van Buitenen though) is the fact that the text of the SvayaMvaraparvan calls the potter at first kumbhakAra and then bhArgava [kumbhakAra(sya zAlAyAM), bhArgava(vezma), bhArgava(karmazAlAM), bhArgava(sya nivezane)]. The disguises are then on both the sides: kshatriyas disguised as brahmins stay with the potter who is 'disguised' as a bhArgava (brahmin). If I remember well, Pali texts know two cases of potters being actually called bhaggavas. A nice hint of social dynamics. Just to make sure that the reader sees through the potter's 'disguise', the commentary to the Kumbakonam edition of the Mbh (Srimanmahabharatam..., I, Bombay 1906, p. 350) takes care to explain bhArgavavezma (abode of BhRguid) as kulAlagRhaM (house of potter). Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ------------- Oszcz?dzaj na komunikacji - rozmawiaj przez Internet. Twojemu rozm?wcy wystarczy telefon. www.netphone.pl ------------------------------------------------------- From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 18 13:47:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 05:47:24 -0800 Subject: Indian children born abroad Message-ID: <161227043714.23782.3254964778846397832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a book about Indian first generation emigrants and their children growing in an alien culture. The kids refuse to visit Hindu temples once they are 10 or more. I have heard a description: a) ABCDs - American born Confused Deshis b) Oreo cookies - brown outside, white inside (derived from the Chinese term - bananas - yellow outside only, but white inside) :-) :-) N. Ganesan -------------------------------------------------- Sunaina Maira and Rajini Srikanth, Contours of the Heart: South Asians map North America, 1997, Temple univ. press This anthology critically explores the immigrant conflict between home as a physical site in North America and home as an emotional concept tied to the ancestral country, and the second generation's questiong of both notions. It challenges undifferentiated, steriotypical images of South Asians in America, ... -------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Dec 18 01:34:52 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 06:34:52 +0500 Subject: Itranslator 98 Message-ID: <161227043697.23782.10498520590091132792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A new freshly baked Windows98 compatible version (works on Win 95 and NT also) of Itranslator is released. It is a free ware. The bugs present in ITRANSlator 1.2 (Beta) are coreected. It can be downloaded from http://www.geocities.com/~omkara/Itrans.htm Below is the description of the software. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Itranslator Itranslator is a free utility for PCs developed by Omkarananda Ashram Himalayas, which converts ITRANS 5.1 (as well asITRANS 4) Sanskrit text or text files into Devanagari scipt (True Type), which can then be exported or pasted via the clipboard to any application. Itranslator produces results that are fully editable, printable on any printer, and of book-quality. This is usefull for converting existing texts like those available at the Sanskrit Documents List into Devanagari, as well as for typing your own texts. You do not need ITRANS, TeX, LaTeX, ghostview/ghostscript, web browser, MS words or any word processor to get this program working. Itranslator is not well-suited for Hindi, Marathi and other languages, since it uses ligatures that are not commonly used in those languages, while it lacks some of the characters needed for them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 18 17:16:14 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 09:16:14 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043727.23782.11426193015252071725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Paul K. Manansala wrote: * In Talageri's letter, he claimed that the Hindutva side *did not hold the *position that Indo-European languages originated in India. Does anyone *know where they do believe IE came from? Mr. Ashish Chandra wrote: $If you mean the IE languages, there is a belief that language itself grew $because of peoples' interactions and not because there was some commonality $of stock. As for IE people, the RgVedic people (wrongly referred to as $being Aryans) were the original inhabitants of the land around Sarasvati $river. Where di they come from, no one knows. But there was certainly no $move from Europe or Caspian Sea into the land of the seven rivers. $Just like N.Ganesan, I am adamantly holding on to the view that Aryan means $noble and that it does not refer to race. The Vedic people are our $ancestors and I will never believe that Indians came from anywhere but the $Sarasvati region. Call me Hindutvavadi or whatever. Mr. P. K. Manansala, often times, writes in Indology about the need to realize that materials, culture, religion, language travel/diffuse without movement of people. Indigenous Aryan schoolers like Mr. A. Chandra extend that to extremes. Establishment of English in India required British in good numbers for 2 centuries+. Not as low stature immigrants. But as the colonizing, imperialistic, all-powerful rulers. This happened with the help modern secular education for all, tremendous improvements in communications (eg., rail roads), publishing, printing, literacy & so on. In the Rig veda, Aryans and horses go together hand in hand. Also, note that No horse bones before 1700 BC in Indus valley and no horses in 4000 Indus seals. It still has to be explained how Sanskrit was borrowed wholesale "because of peoples' interactions". In the late bronze age, how Sanskrit was borrowed from outside without people moving in and spread to the whole of India. In those days, there were less roads, no modern technolgy, less communication methods. Any examples in the world around 1500 BC (or 4000 BC, if Indigenous Aryans insist) where a language spread without "elite dominance" in preliterate late bronze age societies? In preliterate communities? I know how Spanish language spreads in Latin America. 120 years of academic research in India and the West has established that Aryans and Sanskrit entered India around 1500 BC. Sri. Iravatham Mahadevan IAS (Retd.), is a pioneer in reading Tamil Brahmi inscriptions and reading the Indus script as a Dravidian language. He and his forefathers kne/ow Sanskrit very well. He writes that many of the descendants the Indus people, most likely Dravidian speakers and the Vedic Aryans entering Indus valley are in Pakistan today. Mr. A. Chandra writes: "the RgVedic people (wrongly referred to as being Aryans)" HOW? Regards, N. Ganesan To Mr. Chandra: FYI, I collected a bibliography of about 17000 Western languages publications on (South) India and on about 70000 Tamil books. I write to Indology where Professors whose works I love to read interact and inform me. My writings are not intended to any alt.culture(?)... newsgroups where kids in 20s whose native language C++ write/fight and HindutvavAdins are pretty active. Still waiting to be enlightened on what views N. Ganesan adamantly holding. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Fri Dec 18 14:41:30 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 09:41:30 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad In-Reply-To: <19981218134724.19928.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043716.23782.1539561896873441431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I feel happy that someone has finally raised this issue here. However, this is not exactly a matter to talk about so lightheartedly. The fact that Indian-American kids refuse to visit Hindu temples has a lot to do with how stereotypically the temples function, how conservative and patriarchal class- and caste-based Hinduism functions, what relevance these kids find with their parent-imposed "Indianness" (or the lack of it), and how these youngsters relate to India vs. their country of birth. There is a huge cultural vacuum in the minds of these children, and right-wing Hindutva proponents Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and and its offshoot Hindu Student Council (HSC) [or Shiv Sena] keep taking advantage of this vacuum cunningly. Their version of Hinduism is of course racist, isolationist, ultraconservative, and jingoist. VHP does not want to admit here in America that it is a DIRECT offshoot of RSS and that it has created so much communal problems in India. Most immigrant Indians do not know their link with RSS, BJP, or Shiv Sena. However, because of a lack of any organized attempt on the part of the Indian liberals, secular, and progressive, VHP and HSC's version of Hinduism is getting ground abroad which is unfortunate. Sunaina Maira who is a Ph.D. from Harvard has been trying hard to organize these children (at least in some big U.S. cities) based on secularism and progressive agenda. I would recommend her book to everybody who is interested in this extremely important and sensitive subject, i.e., the subject of South Asian children born and brought up outside India. -Partha Banerjee __________________ >This is a book about Indian first generation >emigrants and their children growing in an >alien culture. > >The kids refuse to visit Hindu temples once they >are 10 or more. > >I have heard a description: >a) ABCDs - American born Confused Deshis >b) Oreo cookies - brown outside, white inside >(derived from the Chinese term - >bananas - yellow outside only, but white inside) > >:-) :-) > >N. Ganesan > > >-------------------------------------------------- >Sunaina Maira and Rajini Srikanth, >Contours of the Heart: South Asians map >North America, 1997, Temple univ. press > >This anthology critically explores the immigrant >conflict between home as a physical site in North >America and home as an emotional concept tied to >the ancestral country, and the second generation's >questiong of both notions. It challenges undifferentiated, >steriotypical images of South Asians in America, ... From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Dec 18 17:52:32 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 09:52:32 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043725.23782.12436673809434700054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > I think you may have heard about Theory 3. This is, as far as I know, the > only variant of the Indo-centric theories that postulates a non-Indian > origin of Aryans. But it is not in favour because Meru is (probably) in> Red China. > Yes, I seem to remember that in one of David Frawley's early books on indigenous Aryanism (published by a "new age" press) he claims that Aryans might have originated somewhere in the South Pacific or in the "East." Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 18 18:19:32 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 10:19:32 -0800 Subject: Impulse to adorn Message-ID: <161227043731.23782.12329100344998061925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Napier wrote: <<< The recent discussion of Siva's earrings prompts me to ask a question. In "The Wonder that was India" Basham writes of Indian plastic arts that they exhibit "horror vacuii" or "fear of blank spaces". Of course, this is a rather perjorative way of putting it. I seek a parallel Indian aesthetic term for the impulse to ornament, or the desirability of alamkar. If any body can point me to a source, I would be most grateful. >>> Tamil has 'aNital' - to adorn; aNikalan - jewellery. Also, 'aNi' is the term used in Tamil grammatical treatises on poetics. Pl. see: 1) The impulse to adorn: studies in traditional Indian architecture, Marg, 34, 4, 1982 2) Nirad C. Chaudhuri, Culture in the vanity bag, being an essay on clothing and adornment in passing and abiding India, Jaico, 1976 3) Kamala Dongerkery, Jewelry and personal adornment in India, ICCR, Delhi, 1970 4) Alamkara: 5000 years of Indian art, Exhibition at National museum, Singapore, 1994 (Mapin publishers) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Dec 18 15:32:23 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 10:32:23 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad Message-ID: <161227043718.23782.16668870385306605707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is indeed unfortunate that people who claim to be in the center actually don't know what being in the center means. Is it a surprise that RSS continually gets attacked here by the author of the following email ? Quote (PB): Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and and its offshoot Hindu Student Council (HSC) [or Shiv Sena] Some points of clarification would be in order. HSC is NOT Shiv Sena. If this were true, then everywhere in India, the Congress is Indian Union Muslim League and the Communists are casteist parties. I don't think I understand the following statement : Quote (PB): Their version of Hinduism is of course racist, isolationist, ultraconservative, and jingoist. VHP does not want to admit here in America that it is a DIRECT offshoot of RSS and that it has created so much communal problems in India. To talk of India being one nation and hence its people being one is considered racist, isolationist etc. etc. ? How ? VHP has been in the US for over 20 years now. It is an independent organization with its own constitution. What is there to admit ? It was formed at the behest of several leaders in India, one of who was Guruji M S Gowalkar, the second Sarsanghachalak of RSS. Acharya Sushil Muni and Swami Chinmayananda were also its original founders. So what exactly is it that you would want VHP to admit ? Quote (PB): Most immigrant Indians do not know their link with RSS, BJP, or Shiv Sena. Shiv Sena has nothing to do with VHP even remotely. As for the people not knowing, I'd like to know where you got that information. If you have attended any of the VHP organized utsavs (festivals), there is open mention of the Sangha Parivar. If you know of any people who are unaware of this, please let me know and I think I can personally write to them and inform them even though I don't speak for the VHP. Look, the original theme was that Indian children here don't wish to go to the temples etc. The issue is obviously one of identity: Am I more Indian or American ? The family at home pressurizes children to take an active interest in cultural and community affairs. This is not limited to the Indian community but is a phenomenon that is observed amongst all ethnic groups - namely, the desire to maintain the "home" touch. Because of the vastly different cultures of India and the West, the pressure from the parents is even more pronounced. The kid in the meanwhile faces additional questions of being looked down upon by his/her "American" friends because of the sometimes strange, and most definitely different, customs of his parents and community. After we combine these reasons, there comes a tug between the home (parents) and the outside. If the tug at home is strong enough, the child forges an identity that is more to the liking of his/her parents, something that might make him/her openly defensive in the outside world, or sometimes, even aggressively defensive. If the tug from home is not strong enough, he/she would naturally adopt a lifestyle that is more conducive to their surroundings. This has nothing at all to do with a despise amongst the children here for their religion, but rather a lack of understanding for it. ________________________________________________ ___ I feel happy that someone has finally raised this issue here. However, this is not exactly a matter to talk about so lightheartedly. The fact that Indian-American kids refuse to visit Hindu temples has a lot to do with how stereotypically the temples function, how conservative and patriarchal class- and caste-based Hinduism functions, what relevance these kids find with their parent-imposed "Indianness" (or the lack of it), and how these youngsters relate to India vs. their country of birth. There is a huge cultural vacuum in the minds of these children, and right-wing Hindutva proponents Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and and its offshoot Hindu Student Council (HSC) [or Shiv Sena] keep taking advantage of this vacuum cunningly. Their version of Hinduism is of course racist, isolationist, ultraconservative, and jingoist. VHP does not want to admit here in America that it is a DIRECT offshoot of RSS and that it has created so much communal problems in India. Most immigrant Indians do not know their link with RSS, BJP, or Shiv Sena. However, because of a lack of any organized attempt on the part of the Indian liberals, secular, and progressive, VHP and HSC's version of Hinduism is getting ground abroad which is unfortunate. Sunaina Maira who is a Ph.D. from Harvard has been trying hard to organize these children (at least in some big U.S. cities) based on secularism and progressive agenda. I would recommend her book to everybody who is interested in this extremely important and sensitive subject, i.e., the subject of South Asian children born and brought up outside India. -Partha Banerjee From bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 18 18:34:35 1998 From: bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM (Bapa Rao) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 10:34:35 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043736.23782.11105354830399604496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> va side did not hold the >> position that Indo-European languages originated in India. Does anyone >> know where they do believe IE came from? > > There is no one theory that the "Indic Home for Aryans" side holds, there >are many different variants: > >1. The Aryans originated in Aryavarta (modern UP), then spread into >Sapta Sindhu and then expanded all across the world after the Comments in text and below. collapse of >the Indus Valley >2. The Aryans originated in Sapta Sindhu (Punjab) and then after the >collapse of the "Vedic Indus" migrated all across the world. >3. The Aryans originated near Mt.Meru (in Tibet/Himalayas ?) and then >spread all across the world. In favour of this theory are the following >points: > + Mt. Meru is sacred to Aryas. > + Some legends claim lost cities exist near Mt.Meru, > + Other legands hold that underground cities with the > "pure Aryans" (`devatas' ?) still live in a pure > hyper-civilization there. Numerous `bottomless caves' are said to lead > to those cities. > > Theory 2. is favoured by some, but many Aryanists don't like it because >Sapta Sindhu is now located in Pakistan. a. Aside from your statement here, I don't know "how many" "Aryanists" don't like this theory and for what reason. I could make a similar unsupported statement that theory 2 is popular among "many" "xyz" (where both "many" and "xyz" are undefined or vaguely defined) because it justifies a territorial claim on Pakistan. > Theory 1. is now the most popular (in fact, that is the view propagated >in most of the Aryanist books, incl. Talageri's). > I think you may have heard about Theory 3. This is, as far as I know, the >only variant of the Indo-centric theories that postulates a non-Indian >origin of Aryans. But it is not in favour because Meru is (probably) in >Red China. b. see a, replace Pakistan with China. Of course, I am using a and b above only for illustration. Seriously, I am sure it would be instructive to study the political dynamics of the popularity of various alternative speculations on the "indo-aryan" origins. But simply speculating on those dynamics without bothering to adduce any basis serves no purpose other than to add another (possibly more palatable to some) political layer to the existing political layers. In short, Samar Abbas, if you don't have a political agenda here and you are simply indulging in random speculations, I respectfully suggest you are wasting your time. If you are actually a student of the politics of origin theories, then again I hope you are able to substantiate your claims more rigorously than you have done here. Bapa Rao ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Dec 18 18:48:03 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 10:48:03 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043729.23782.9495525455420938513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Mr. Paul K. Manansala wrote: > * In Talageri's letter, he claimed that the Hindutva side > *did not hold the > *position that Indo-European languages originated in India. Does anyone > *know where they do believe IE came from? > > Mr. Ashish Chandra wrote: > $If you mean the IE languages, there is a belief that language itself > grew > $because of peoples' interactions and not because there was some > commonality > $of stock. As for IE people, the RgVedic people (wrongly referred to as > $being Aryans) were the original inhabitants of the land around > Sarasvati > $river. Where di they come from, no one knows. But there was certainly > no > $move from Europe or Caspian Sea into the land of the seven rivers. > > $Just like N.Ganesan, I am adamantly holding on to the view that Aryan > means > $noble and that it does not refer to race. The Vedic people are our > $ancestors and I will never believe that Indians came from anywhere but > the > $Sarasvati region. Call me Hindutvavadi or whatever. > > Mr. P. K. Manansala, often times, writes in Indology about > the need to realize that materials, culture, religion, language > travel/diffuse without movement of people. > > Indigenous Aryan schoolers like Mr. A. Chandra extend that > to extremes. > > Establishment of English in India required British in > good numbers for 2 centuries+. Not as low stature immigrants. > But as the colonizing, imperialistic, all-powerful rulers. > This happened with the help modern secular education for all, > tremendous improvements in communications (eg., rail roads), > publishing, printing, literacy & so on. > > In the Rig veda, Aryans and horses go together hand in hand. But does the Rgveda have any bearing on Indian demographic or other history? It still has to be explained > how Sanskrit was borrowed wholesale "because of peoples' > interactions". In the late bronze age, how Sanskrit was borrowed > from outside without people moving in and spread to the > whole of India. In those days, there were less roads, no > modern technolgy, less communication methods. >?From what I understand, Mr. Chandra is not saying Sanskrit was "borrowed" but it arose out of a convergence of language influences. > > Any examples in the world around 1500 BC (or 4000 BC, > if Indigenous Aryans insist) where a language spread > without "elite dominance" in preliterate late bronze > age societies? In preliterate communities? Why would you limit it to this time period? Communication in Asia was much the same in the late bronze age (if that indeed is the relevant period) as it was until just several centuries ago. > 120 years of academic research in India and the West has > established that Aryans and Sanskrit entered India > around 1500 BC. > This is indeed an overstatement. Even the AI theorists are divided about when "Aryans" entered India. The Allchin's recent work on Indian civilization clearly shows that even in the West there is growing doubt about the AI theory (or even a mass migration theory). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From partha at CAPITAL.NET Fri Dec 18 16:14:32 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 11:14:32 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: <01BE2A71.B3BF91E0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043721.23782.12993674587311554661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't want to start bickering here, but some clarifications of my post are in order. Ashish Chandra (AC) made some comments on my post. I am trying to answer them here. -Partha Banerjee _____________________ (AC)>It is indeed unfortunate that people who claim to be in the center actually >don't know what being in the center means. Is it a surprise that RSS >continually gets attacked here by the author of the following email ? _____ The author of the following mail, i.e., me, was a longtime active member of RSS, and its offshoot groups. So, when someone lime me attacks the so-called Sangh Parivar, that shows some objectivity. I am not the one who resorts to mudslinging. Of course, an abviously avid pro-RSS, pro-VHP person like AC wouldn't admit. That's okay. I would again ask AC and others to read my newly-published book on RSS which is almost a personal diary on the Sangh Parivar written by an ex-RSS member for 15+ years. _____ >Quote (PB): >Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and and its >offshoot Hindu Student Council (HSC) [or Shiv Sena] > > (AC)>Some points of clarification would be in order. HSC is NOT Shiv Sena. If >this were true, then everywhere in India, the Congress is Indian Union >Muslim League and the Communists are casteist parties. _____ I put Shiv Sena under parenthesis to distinguish this group from HSC which is a direct offshoot of RSS and VHP. A VHP/RSS member founded HSC in America. But VHP and RSS have direct connections with Shiv Sena, and recent vandalism in India on the issue of the controversial film Fire was done by both Shiv Sena and VHP (actually, VHP doesn't admit, but Bajrang Dal, a direct offshoot of VHP was involved in the vandalism, along with Shiv Sena) And we all know about the VHP's role in the Babri Masjid demolition in 1992. In 1992 December, and in January 1993, BJP (a sister organization of VHP) and Shiv Sena began a series of communal riots in Bombay that killed many people mostly poor Muslims. An independent judiciary commission (Shri Krishna Commission) found BJP and Shiv Sena guilty (the report was finally released, reluctantly, by the central BJP government and the local Maharashtra government). No action has been taken against them. _____ (AC)>I don't think I understand the following statement : > >Quote (PB): >Their version of Hinduism is of course racist, >isolationist, ultraconservative, and jingoist. > (AC)>VHP does not want to admit here in America that it is a DIRECT offshoot of >RSS and that it has created so much communal problems in India. > >To talk of India being one nation and hence its people being one is >considered racist, isolationist etc. etc. ? How ? _____ This is a common ploy used by the Sangh Parivar and we have discussed it many times before on various forums. RSS/VHP's concept of India being one nation is a concept based on prevarication and distortion of Indian history and Hinduism. We have MANY examples where RSS leaders such as Golwalkar talked about Muslims, Christians, and communists to be "enemies" of the so-called Indian nation a la RSS. Golwalkar (the most well-known RSS chief now deceased) and the late Savarkar, who was the mentor of Gandhi-killer Nathuram Godse, spoke of India and Hindutva in a fascistic way. Presently, Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray's rhetorics are in those lines. By the way, we know that Godse was an RSS member. That would be enough reason for someone like me to quit RSS. There are other reasons too. And BJP and RSS and VHP have strong ties, political and social, with Shiv Sena. If you want quotes from Golwakar, Savarkar, and other right-wing leaders, we can post some. We have posted them before, but still... _____ (AC)>VHP has been in the US for over 20 years now. It is an independent >organization with its own constitution. What is there to admit ? It was >formed at the behest of several leaders in India, one of who was Guruji M S >Gowalkar, the second Sarsanghachalak of RSS. Acharya Sushil Muni and Swami >Chinmayananda were also its original founders. So what exactly is it that >you would want VHP to admit ? _____ Here is another trick. VHP in America never admits openly that it was floated in India by RSS and the fact that since its inception, it has been found guilty of communal troubles the Babri Masjid demolition episode being just one of them. VHP in America or Europe has a very different and naive look. People don't know what's in there behind the mask. _____ >Quote (PB): >Most immigrant Indians do not know their link with RSS, BJP, or Shiv Sena. > (AC)>Shiv Sena has nothing to do with VHP even remotely. As for the people not >knowing, I'd like to know where you got that information. If you have >attended any of the VHP organized utsavs (festivals), there is open mention >of the Sangha Parivar. If you know of any people who are unaware of this, >please let me know and I think I can personally write to them and inform >them even though I don't speak for the VHP. _____ I have been keeping close touch with VHP activities in USA and Europe. American and European children of Indian origin DO NOT know the connection of RSS, BJP, VHP, and HSC. And they are fed with a very distorted kind of Hinduism. And then, why Hindu children only? Why not invite Muslim children or Christian children or other children of South Asian origin at VHP/RSS/HSC gatherings? Or, are they considered "enemies" here too? _____ (AC)>Look, the original theme was that Indian children here don't wish to go to >the temples etc. The issue is obviously one of identity: Am I more Indian >or American ? The family at home pressurizes children to take an active >interest in cultural and community affairs. This is not limited to the >Indian community but is a phenomenon that is observed amongst all ethnic >groups - namely, the desire to maintain the "home" touch. Because of the >vastly different cultures of India and the West, the pressure from the >parents is even more pronounced. The kid in the meanwhile faces additional >questions of being looked down upon by his/her "American" friends because >of the sometimes strange, and most definitely different, customs of his >parents and community. After we combine these reasons, there comes a tug >between the home (parents) and the outside. If the tug at home is strong >enough, the child forges an identity that is more to the liking of his/her >parents, something that might make him/her openly defensive in the outside >world, or sometimes, even aggressively defensive. If the tug from home is >not strong enough, he/she would naturally adopt a lifestyle that is more >conducive to their surroundings. This has nothing at all to do with a >despise amongst the children here for their religion, but rather a lack of >understanding for it. _________ If the children feel alienated, it's because of the reason that capitalist systems make people alienated -- adults and children alike. "American" children are alienated too. Look at them. Many come from broken families. Many are blacks, or other minorities. Colored minorities have additional problems. But in spite of that, many South Asian children are fitting very well with their white American counterpart. It is the conservative mindset of most Indian immigrants that make them feel not at par. These parents wouldn't let them go out with white American kids, not to say anything about poor or specially black kids. The same mindset that keeps out Muslims or "lower castes" in India. It's a false consciousness and comes out of a rigid class- and caste-based structure in India. Girls are taught different values than boys, in most immigrant families. There are many other problems. All this makes the child alienated. The panacea however is not Hindutva. If there is any panacea, it's a progressive thought process. Just like the Christian Coalition with its separatist and isolationist right-wing Christian agenda can't solve the problems of white America, the Sangh Parivar can't do it for Indian-American kids or Indian-European kids. Let's face it. Dogmatic religion only makes the situation worse. From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Fri Dec 18 16:16:01 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 11:16:01 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <36795113.B2AF3D77@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227043703.23782.8760601817906421044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > In Talageri's letter, he claimed that the Hindutva side did not hold the > position that Indo-European languages originated in India. Does anyone > know where they do believe IE came from? There is no one theory that the "Indic Home for Aryans" side holds, there are many different variants: 1. The Aryans originated in Aryavarta (modern UP), then spread into Sapta Sindhu and then expanded all across the world after the collapse of the Indus Valley 2. The Aryans originated in Sapta Sindhu (Punjab) and then after the collapse of the "Vedic Indus" migrated all across the world. 3. The Aryans originated near Mt.Meru (in Tibet/Himalayas ?) and then spread all across the world. In favour of this theory are the following points: + Mt. Meru is sacred to Aryas. + Some legends claim lost cities exist near Mt.Meru, + Other legands hold that underground cities with the "pure Aryans" (`devatas' ?) still live in a pure hyper-civilization there. Numerous `bottomless caves' are said to lead to those cities. Theory 2. is favoured by some, but many Aryanists don't like it because Sapta Sindhu is now located in Pakistan. Theory 1. is now the most popular (in fact, that is the view propagated in most of the Aryanist books, incl. Talageri's). I think you may have heard about Theory 3. This is, as far as I know, the only variant of the Indo-centric theories that postulates a non-Indian origin of Aryans. But it is not in favour because Meru is (probably) in Red China. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 18 19:56:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 11:56:20 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043742.23782.16772832273447466769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. A. Chandra writes: <<< I had said that I would quota a Sanskrit sloka that had mentioned the word Dravidam as meaning wealth. When I had sent that to you, you wrote back saying that Dravida was coined by someone named Caldwell who used the following : Tamizh -> Damila -> Dramila -> Dramida. Robert Caldwell coined the term, Dravidian from Dramida which means Tamil in Sanskrit. I also aked you to give me the name of the Sanskrit dictionary that mentions Dramida as Tamil. >>> Namaskar, Ashish. In the shloka you sent there was no word, DramiDa in it. There was a word 'dravina'. You said that dravina will sound like dravida while reading Sanskrit. I lost your mail. Can you please post the Sanskrit shloka in Indology? Let us all see. Sankaracharya mentions Dramida child in Saundaryalahari. Traditonally this is taken to refer to Saint Gnanasambandhar, because Parvati fed him milk. Zvelebil writes that 'DramiDa' occurs in Sanskrit there. When asked privately about modern Dravidian political movement, my reply is to check some good university libraries. There are scores of books on them in English or Indian languages. I did not get any Baltuch mail from you. What date in Indology he wrote? Or, is it a private mail to you from Mr. J. Baltuch? Can you point out the date or post that mail, please. Sorry and excuse me for my inability to summarize those books for want of time. My interest is old Tamil literature or Tamil books printed pre-1947. Namaskar again. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Dec 18 18:18:32 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 13:18:32 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Message-ID: <161227043740.23782.2337099340316913248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the interest of this list, this discussion is now going to be carried in private between me and Shri P. Banerjee. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: Partha Banerjee [SMTP:partha at CAPITAL.NET] Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 11:15 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications I don't want to start bickering here, but some clarifications of my post are in order. Ashish Chandra (AC) made some comments on my post. I am trying to answer them here. -Partha Banerjee From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Dec 18 12:52:55 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 13:52:55 +0100 Subject: mysterious syllables In-Reply-To: <36272B2D.EFDA152F@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227043710.23782.12175837038241877423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am still struggling with my edition of the (bhikSu-)prAtimokSasUtra of the sarvAstivAdins. In this connection I have the following question: In some (not all) of the manuscripts (from Central Asia) there appear sometimes (not always, and mostly in the first part of the text and for me quite unpredictably) at the end of a rule, usually after the number of the rule, one of the following syllables: a, azr(A?), kau, ni, ra, rA, rAH, vai, zraH, zrA, zrAH, sa, sA. Has anybody an idea what function these syllables might have? Is this phenomenon known from other mss.? The prAtimokSasUtra is a law-text, where one would not expect mantras or magic. But: these syllables are clearly not a part of the main text; they might have to do with the writing or with the recitation of the text? In the large collection of the "Turfan-manuscripts" these syllables do not seem to appear at other places, but just in this text - created by the scribes only to annoy me? :-). Georg v. Simson From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 18 22:14:42 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 14:14:42 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043759.23782.17275083910642621310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashish Chandra writes: ?From the way he writes in Indology, will I ever write a private e-mail to him like this? He must be kidding. (unless I am totally crazy). In the slogan provided by him there is no 'draviDa'. In the last few days he sent unsolicited emails most of which never had any reply back. Regards, N. Ganesan (signed) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Dec 18 13:27:31 1998 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 14:27:31 +0100 Subject: Rasaratnasamuccaya Message-ID: <161227043712.23782.8849370073359602709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Zysk, I have looked up the concerning volumes of the IJHS and the references which you have asked for are the following: IJHS Vol. 22, No. 2 (April 1987) 1st adhyaya, Foreword, Text, engl. Translation, Notes, pp. 1-34 IJHS Vol. 22, No. 3 (July 1987) 2nd adhyaya, Text, engl. Transl., Notes, pp. 35-80 IJHS Vol. 22, No. 4 (October 1987) 3rd adhyaya, Text, engl. Transl., Notes, pp. 81-130 IJHS Vol. 24, No. 1 (January 1989) 4th adhyaya, Text, engl. Transl., Notes, pp. 131-182 IJHS Vol. 24, No. 2 (April 1989) 5th adhyaya, Text, engl. Tansl., Notes, pp. 183-266 IJHS Vol. 24, No. 3 (July 1989) 6th and 7th adhyaya, Text, engl. Transl., Notes, pp. 267-302 IJHS Vol. 24, No.4 (October 1989) 8th adhyaya, Text, engl. Transl., Notes, pp. 303-334. It seems that IJHS Volume 23 has not been published but I am not sure about that. I hope this will be the information that you needed. Best regards jn Kenneth G. Zysk wrote: > > I should be most grateful for information on the following: > > An English translation of Vagabhata's _Rasaratnasamuccaya_ was > published serially as a supplement to the Indian Journal of > History of Science from 1987-1992 (?). > > I would like to know the extent of the work. Was it completed or > not? And which chapters were published in which volumes of the > IJHS. > > With much appreciation, > > Ken Zysk > > -- > Kenneth G. Zysk > University of Copenhagen > Department of Asian Studies > Leifsgade 33, 5 > DK-Copenhagen S Denmark > > Phone: +45.35.32.88.32 > FAX: +45.53.32.88.35 > Email: zysk at coco.ihi.ku.dk -- jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a 14195 Berlin From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Dec 18 19:54:54 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 14:54:54 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043757.23782.13788326932421859189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N Ganesan wrote : To Mr. Chandra: FYI, I collected a bibliography of about 17000 Western languages publications on (South) India and on about 70000 Tamil books. I write to Indology where Professors whose works I love to read interact and inform me. My writings are not intended to any alt.culture(?)... newsgroups where kids in 20s whose native language C++ write/fight and HindutvavAdins are pretty active. Still waiting to be enlightened on what views N. Ganesan adamantly holding. Dear Shri Ganesan, I have, through this medium and in private mails to you, have always addressed you with respect and have always deferred to your opinion, as you may be aware from the discussion I had with you about Dravidam meaning wealth and so forth. But you, in your infinite wisdom of having a " bibliography of about 17000 Western languages publications on (South) India and on about 70000 Tamil books", have found it so easy to get so worked up over such a small thing. It is indeed my misfortune that I cannot trace the email in which you had made, probably with some humor, a remark that you were "still adamant enough to hold on to the idea that Aryans entered India from outside." I just cannot find that email but what I do remember is that it was pretty short and didn't provide any explanations. That was not a problem (absence of explanation in that mail) as I, fairly recent to Indology, was trying to find out more about the Dravidian movement in India. Having being condemned to being a North Indian Brahmin, I don't think I can make any remark here without someone frowning. You have not been untouched by this phenomenon either as in one of your emails, you have mentioned that "It is interesting that N.Rajaram and Shrikant Talageri are South Indian Brahmanas." [Letter dated 12/02/98 Sub : RE: Vicious Debate]. Needles to say, no matter what they say, it would always come under a shadow of doubt as they are the opponents of the AIT whereas you and the 120 years of research are absolutely the benchmark. Should these gentlemen start saying that they have n number of bibliographies to their credit ? I was using one aside comment you made in one of your emails to express my belief. Not to quote you as saying that you were being blindly adamant. Then someone started something about my "scientific gem of a remark" and everybody gets so worked up. You can't take criticism well it seems, even though I wasn't criticising. This In-his-20s C++ speaking Hindutvavadi never doubted your remarks. I have read each and every one of your emails and wherever necessary, I have asked you for clarifications, some you have provided, others, on account of your being busy, you have not. But there is one thing I do have that you have demonstrated that you lack. And that is HUMILITY. I think that is a quality that our friends here seem to lack in general. RgVedic people <> Aryans because Arya means Noble and apparently conquered and destroyed the Dravidians !!! Are you convinced now ? But of course, that was not what I had meant. What I had meant was that to consider the word Arya which means noble and equate it with a race of people is wrong. Do we know that the RgVedic Aryans were of one race ? Anyway, don't pick on small tid-bits and try to fight with someone who posts to alt.culture.(?). I already consider you a Dramid Vidhwan. Why don't you take it easy. Ashish Chandra From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Dec 18 20:10:42 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 15:10:42 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043749.23782.14995335473998126327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As per Sri Ganesan's request, here is the sloka : Here is the sloka : Tvameva maata cha pitaa tvameva O Lord. Thou art my mother and thou art my father also Tvameva bandhuscha sakhaa tvameva | thou art my brother and my friend thou art Tvameva vidyaa dravinam tvameva Thou art knowledge and wealth unto me Tvameva sarvam mama deva deva || thou art my all-in-all, O Lord of Lords The sloka is in reference to the position of a Guru. It reads draviNam in Devanagiri ( as in N ). I am also asking if anyone can point me to a Sanskrit dictionary that mentions Dramida is Tamila in Sanskrit. Ashish -----Original Message----- Mr. A. Chandra writes: <<< I had said that I would quota a Sanskrit sloka that had mentioned the word Dravidam as meaning wealth. When I had sent that to you, you wrote back saying that Dravida was coined by someone named Caldwell who used the following : Tamizh -> Damila -> Dramila -> Dramida. Robert Caldwell coined the term, Dravidian from Dramida which means Tamil in Sanskrit. I also aked you to give me the name of the Sanskrit dictionary that mentions Dramida as Tamil. >>> Namaskar, Ashish. In the shloka you sent there was no word, DramiDa in it. There was a word 'dravina'. You said that dravina will sound like dravida while reading Sanskrit. I lost your mail. Can you please post the Sanskrit shloka in Indology? Let us all see. Sankaracharya mentions Dramida child in Saundaryalahari. Traditonally this is taken to refer to Saint Gnanasambandhar, because Parvati fed him milk. Zvelebil writes that 'DramiDa' occurs in Sanskrit there. When asked privately about modern Dravidian political movement, my reply is to check some good university libraries. There are scores of books on them in English or Indian languages. I did not get any Baltuch mail from you. What date in Indology he wrote? Or, is it a private mail to you from Mr. J. Baltuch? Can you point out the date or post that mail, please. Sorry and excuse me for my inability to summarize those books for want of time. My interest is old Tamil literature or Tamil books printed pre-1947. Namaskar again. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Fri Dec 18 20:40:34 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 15:40:34 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: <01BE2A88.E9DAC4E0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043744.23782.16921879391546392625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In the interest of this list, this discussion is now going to be carried >in private between me and Shri P. Banerjee. > >Ashish ___________ So, what does it mean?? ;-) From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Dec 18 20:49:51 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Message-ID: <161227043747.23782.411646510930911058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It means exactly what you read. 8-{| -----Original Message----- From: Partha Banerjee [SMTP:partha at CAPITAL.NET] Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 3:41 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications >In the interest of this list, this discussion is now going to be carried >in private between me and Shri P. Banerjee. > >Ashish ___________ So, what does it mean?? ;-) From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 18 16:07:38 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:07:38 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Rasaratnasamuccaya] In-Reply-To: <367A590E.82AF05AF@coco.ihi.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227043719.23782.3064014251536636872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Damodar Joshi's reprint and translation of the Rasaratnasamuccaya by pseudo-Vagbhata was serialized in the IJHS as follows: adhyaya Apr 1987 22.2 1 Jul 1987 22.3 2 Oct 1987 22.4 3 Jan 1989 24.1 4 Apr 1989 24.2 5 Jul 1989 24.3 6, 7 Oct 1989 24.4 8 Jul 1991 26.3 9 Oct 1991 26.4 10 Apr 1992 27.2 11 Jul 1992 27.3 twelve appendices. That seems to be all that was published. Dominik From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 19 00:34:54 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:34:54 -0800 Subject: dramiDa/dramiDa = Tamil Message-ID: <161227043762.23782.232566742410442506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dramiDa/draviDa = Tamil in Sanskrit K. Zvelebil, Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1975 p.49 "However, in early historical times, Sanskrit text composed in the North of India show a rather unfriendly, even contemptuous, attitude towards the Dravidians, cf. MAn. X, 44. CarakasaMhitA, IndriyasthAna V, 28 mentions draviDa and Andraka in one breath with CaNDaalas, pizAcas, dogs, etc., ie., with beings one should not see in one's dreams since they are highly inauspicious. BANa, in the kAdambarI describes the draviDa dharmika very unfavorably (Kadambari edition, K. P. Parab, Bombay, 1921, p. 398-401) The different kAmazAstras usually deal with the women of the South in not too flattering terms". p. 53 "It is obvious that the Sanskrit drAviDa, Pali damila, damiLo and Prakrit dAviDa are all etymologically connected with "tamizh" [48] [48] The *r* in tamizh > drAviDa is a hypercorrect insertion, cf. an analogical case of DED 1033 Ta. Ma. kamuku, Tu. kaGgu, "areca palm"; Skt. kramu." p. 59 "There is also a reference to a dramiDa saGghAta in the commentary to DaNDin's kAvyadarza by TaruNa VAcaspati. cf. V. Narayana Aiyar, JORM, 2, 1928, p. 149-151." p.140 "In Saundaryalaharii 76 ascribed to zaGkara, Campantar is called draviDazizu. For this tradition of "the boy-saint", cf. also his other epithets, ALuTaiya piLLaiyAr ..." -------------------------------------- K. Zvelebil, Companion studies to the history of Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1992 p. 18 "the word Dravidian, coined by R. Caldwell, in 1856 on the base of the Sanskrit term draaviDa- found in a 7th century AD Sanskrit author [kumArila bhaTTa], is in fact most probably connected with the indigenous term for the Tamizh language, ie., tamizh, whereby the development might have been *tamiz > *damiL > damiLa-/damila- and further, with the intrusive 'hyper-correct' (or perhaps analogical) -r- into draaviDa- 'Dravidian'. cf. the forms damiLa-, damila- occuring in Prakrit, and the alternative Sanskrit for dramila-. The -m/-v alternation is a common phenomenon in Dravidian." Nammalvar's TiruvAymozi is called dramiDopaniSad. Vedanta Desikan wrote dramiDopaniSattAtparyaratnAvalI. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 18 16:53:05 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:53:05 +0000 Subject: mysterious syllables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043723.23782.15950420663506575937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This sounds a bit like the 's.rnkhalaa, chain, which one finds at the end of adhyayas in MSS of the Astadhyayi. In that case, the strange syllables are the first ak.saras of every n-th sutra in the adhyaya, and the idea is to have a little mnemonic check on correctness. It sounds as though you have single syllables, which wouldn't work, so perhaps it is something different. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Dec 18 20:04:53 1998 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 19:04:53 -0100 Subject: Test, please ignore.. Message-ID: <161227043733.23782.190708147437718386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Test, please ignore! Sorry.... From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Dec 18 20:12:28 1998 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 19:12:28 -0100 Subject: Test. Please ignore.. Message-ID: <161227043734.23782.2660205647974749200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please ignore.. Sorry for the inconvenience! From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sat Dec 19 02:57:21 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 21:57:21 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981218221517.008abb10@popix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227043764.23782.6260260073080610513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Actually, I personally do not have the impression that this is a topic for >the *Indology*-list! >Regards, >Volker ________ As long as the moderator thinks it's suitable for the Indology, it will be posted, right? My feeling is that theoretical discussions with no relevance to praxis are almost meaningless. Best, Partha From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Dec 18 23:15:17 1998 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 22:15:17 -0100 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043752.23782.12382809223796796275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, I personally do not have the impression that this is a topic for the *Indology*-list! Regards, Volker At 15:40 18.12.98 -0500, you wrote: >>In the interest of this list, this discussion is now going to be carried >>in private between me and Shri P. Banerjee. >> >>Ashish >___________ > >So, what does it mean?? > >;-) > > --------------------------------- LaserSatz Thewalt Dr. Volker Thewalt fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de http://www.w3pro.de http://www.uebersatz.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Dec 18 23:18:02 1998 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 22:18:02 -0100 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <01BE2A98.A77DFD00.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043754.23782.2000353193991421489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please check your mailer: all your mailings appear twice in the list. Regards, Volker At 15:10 18.12.98 -0500, you wrote: >As per Sri Ganesan's request, here is the sloka : > >Here is the sloka : > > Tvameva maata cha pitaa tvameva O Lord. Thou art my mother and thou art >my father also > Tvameva bandhuscha sakhaa tvameva | thou art my brother and my friend >thou art > Tvameva vidyaa dravinam tvameva Thou art knowledge and wealth unto me > Tvameva sarvam mama deva deva || thou art my all-in-all, O Lord of Lords > >The sloka is in reference to the position of a Guru. > >It reads draviNam in Devanagiri ( as in N ). I am also asking if anyone can >point me to a Sanskrit dictionary that mentions Dramida is Tamila in >Sanskrit. > >Ashish > > >-----Original Message----- > >Mr. A. Chandra writes: ><<< >I had said that I would quota a Sanskrit sloka that had mentioned the >word >Dravidam as meaning wealth. When I had sent that to you, you wrote back >saying that Dravida was coined by someone named Caldwell who used the >following : > > Tamizh -> Damila -> Dramila -> Dramida. Robert Caldwell >coined the term, >Dravidian from Dramida which means Tamil in Sanskrit. > >I also aked you to give me the name of the Sanskrit dictionary that >mentions Dramida as Tamil. >>>> > > Namaskar, Ashish. In the shloka you sent there was > no word, DramiDa in it. > > There was a word 'dravina'. You said that > dravina will sound like dravida while reading > Sanskrit. > > I lost your mail. Can you please post the Sanskrit > shloka in Indology? Let us all see. > > Sankaracharya mentions Dramida child in Saundaryalahari. > Traditonally this is taken to refer to Saint Gnanasambandhar, > because Parvati fed him milk. Zvelebil writes that > 'DramiDa' occurs in Sanskrit there. > > When asked privately about modern Dravidian political > movement, my reply is to check some good university > libraries. There are scores of books on them in > English or Indian languages. > > I did not get any Baltuch mail from you. What date in Indology > he wrote? Or, is it a private mail to you from Mr. J. Baltuch? > Can you point out the date or post that mail, please. > > Sorry and excuse me for my inability to summarize > those books for want of time. My interest is old > Tamil literature or Tamil books printed pre-1947. > > Namaskar again. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > --------------------------------- LaserSatz Thewalt Dr. Volker Thewalt fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de http://www.w3pro.de http://www.uebersatz.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 19 00:20:25 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil K. Gupta) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 05:50:25 +0530 Subject: Tea plus salt Message-ID: <161227043761.23782.2241030929929094368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> i donotthink the tibetan tea ( if it is similar to Bhutanese tea) has to be taken immediately. It has salt and doesnot have to be taken immediately. In fact weadd salt ( a litlebit) even in tea with milk when we have sore throat. It doesnot spoill the tea. The quantity ofsalt is very little. In general salt shoudl not be added to milk preparations. But in south India, rice ie taken with milk and osme time preparations with salt are inded added to the same -----Original Message----- From: T.I. Console To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: 17 December 1998 13:55 Subject: Tea >N. Ganesan wrote > >>I do not know if Tibetan Tea has sugar or salt. >> Is salt added really? I would think milk >> will get spoiled, unless one drinks salty >> tea soon after its preparation. >> Want to read on the recipes of salty Tibetan tea. > >Well, it's not milk they use, but butter, made of yak-milk. This is a high-fat type of milk. Butter consists of far more fat than proteins, so salt doesn't spoil the structure. But you are right as to the moment of drinking this tea: immediately after its preparation. I guess this has something to do with the emulsion. > >Sandra van der Geer >Kern Institute >Leiden >info at ticonsole.nl > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 19 09:29:29 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 09:29:29 +0000 Subject: [ADMINISTRATION] Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043768.23782.3198870409426540282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Okay, everyone. I am calling a halt to this discussion thread. Once again, the debate is moving towards personal antagonisms and unfalsifiable hypotheses. This is just "Viscious debate" under a different title. This discussion thread is now closed. Discussants are of course perfectly free to continue the discussion in private, or to set up a list somewhere else for this topic. However, it will not proceed further at this time on INDOLOGY. As before, I must warn INDOLOGY members that continued discussion of this topic at this time may lead to the cancellation of your membership. Thank you, --- Dominik Wujastyk, Founder of the INDOLOGY list. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Dec 19 18:18:34 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 10:18:34 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043778.23782.5235720631886947097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > > What I had meant was that to consider the > > word Arya which means noble and equate it with a race of people is wrong. > > Recently, anaylses of the genes of Indo-Aryans and other Caucasoids > using the most advanced techniques avaliable showed that the Indo-Aryans > belong to the "White Race". Not really. In fact, most broad recent genetic studies show that Northern Indians are closer to Asians than to Europeans or North Africans. Genetics are hardly the smoking gun that some believe. > > The earliest Aryans in India were of predominantly brachycephalic Lunar > stock. Solar Aryans (predominantly dolicocephalic) came later. Actually, in terms of long-headed and broad-headed people, the reverse happened. I don't know about solar and lunar "Aryans." The term > race is often loosely applied to macro-races (such as the Indo-European > Caucasoids) as well as sub-races (like the Anglo-Saxon, Slav, etc.). So, > if you want to be correct, the RigVedic Aryans were of different sub-races > belonging to one race. Again, not really. > Further genetic analyses have shown the Sudroids (Dravidoids and > Kolarians) to be of Negroid stock, closely related to Africans. Racial > conflict has always been more acute where white races have encountered > black races. Cf. US South, South Africa, etc. The evidence is quite mixed. Only a few genetic studies show that Dravidians are more closely related to Africans. In fact, most studies try a bit too hard to deny any connection. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Dec 19 18:30:58 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 10:30:58 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043782.23782.17441689418839947919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the transgression. I read Samar's letter before reading the ban on this thread. From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 19 18:53:28 1998 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 10:53:28 -0800 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227043787.23782.16030694710831490719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a book about Indian first generation emigrants and their children growing in an alien culture. Thank you for the reference, I will try to follow it up. The kids refuse to visit Hindu temples once they are 10 or more. Please clarify - is this a description of the kids in the book you are referring to? As a trained refuge worker in the UK, now living in the US (with training in social work among others) my observations are as follows: 1. The religious leanings of first generation Indian emigrant children may be influenced by the time when their parents emigrated. I use time in the sense of the 1950's, 1960's 1970's etc.. Indians migrating to the west (US, UK and other European nations) during the 50's, 60's and 70's were relatively (as compared to the recent increase in migration of computer experts to the US)fewer in numbers. The children of these Indian immigrants often attended schools that had a majority of white children and few formal or informal support structures that disseminated information/guidance regarding their religion and culture. In those decades (50's, 60's &70's) - there were far fewer Indian Temples, mosques and even grocery stores than there are today. Parents tended to be busy struggling to settle down in a new country and culture. As these emigrants adapted in their individual ways to their new countries they struggled to transmit their culture to the younger generation. These early emigrants slowly arranged to build the temples, mosques and cultural associations that now exist in European countries as well as the US. The children of early immigrants, may have faced racism in schools where their religion and countries of origin. They may have been less valued and respected than during the eighties and 1990's when awareness of these issues is much higher everywhere. These children (now adult) again sought their identities in their varied and individual ways. Some as depicted in the book by Sunaina Maira and Rajini Srikanth, may have refused to visit temples. Others as per my observation (including my 15 year old son and his Indian friends) visit the Livermore Temple and other US Temples. The now adult 'children' of Indians who migrated west also make use of Indian cultural organisations in their adopted country to find life partners. Some children moved temporarily to India, studied in India during their teens and married young men and women from India and moved back to their respective countries (US or European). Some children including 2 in my immediate social circle grew up and are working for shelters in the US out of conviction. 2. More recent Indian emigrants in the US and some of the European countries have benefited culturally in the sense - that they and their children have been able to gain immediate access to temples and Bal Vihars - since earlier immigrants had established them. For example, in California where I live most relatively recent(4-5 years)immigrants go to temples with children over 10 (who also go to Bal Vihars) and learn about the Hindu religion and culture. There are some children who may turn away from their religion either temporarily or permanently. Of those who turn away permanently - some do so out of disbelief in all religion - and may or may not change their opinions later. This is a part of a painful process of identity formation - which also happens to Indian children in India. I have heard a description: a) ABCDs - American born Confused Deshis b) Oreo cookies - brown outside, white inside (derived from the Chinese term - bananas - yellow outside only, but white inside) Yes, I too have heard the description you write of above. I have also heard nasty descriptions of Indians living in India - from Indians living in the US. I dismiss both these kinds of descriptions (whether of Indians or their children in the US or of Indians in India) as simplistic generalisations and crude stereotyping that ignore the variety of individual experiences that shape the equally valuable cultural and religious identities of both groups. I also believe that Indians living in India and people of Indian origin living out of India are people who cannot be pigeonholed as their problems and achievements are complex and often individual. "The Needs of Children" by Mia Kellmer Pringle reprinted in 1993 by Routledge has been published in the UK, USA & Canada & describes in a a brief way some of the difficulties faced by ethnic minority children in a majority culture that is difficult from theirs. The point I have perhaps laboured overlong to make is - that the book you have refered to (by Sunaina Maira & Rajini Srikanth - may represent a valid description of the religious identity (or lack of it) of some Indian children abroad. It cannot however claim to represent the religious identity of all children of Indian origin living abroad. Nor can it be related in any way to uninteresting stereotypes like "I have heard a description: a) ABCDs - American born Confused Deshis b) Oreo cookies - brown outside, white inside (derived from the Chinese term - bananas - yellow outside only, but white inside)" Unless ofcourse you are quoting from the book - in which case I still stand my position. With warm regards Asha Naidu ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 19 19:59:41 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 11:59:41 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227043791.23782.14707721734611391523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a beautiful sculptural representation of Avalokitezvara with attributes of 'Siva, see the GaNDavyUha panels in Borobudur. Avalokitezvara is having a Dhyani Buddha in his head. His head decoration reminds us of 'Siva. He is sitting cross-legged like a great yogin. He is seated on a simhAsana. He has six hands, three on each side. Leaving out the broken palms, the available palms hold: 1) rosary beads (upper right hand) 2) broken (middle right hand) 3) vara mudhra giving charity (lower right hand) 4) broken (upper left hand) 5) lotus stem (middle left hand) 6) a kamaNDalam (lower left hand) The temple where he is seated looks like the Southern Dravidian type where Sudhana prays to him. This about 800 AD sculpture is published in p. 132& 133, John Miksic, Borobudur, Golden tales of the Buddhas, 1990 Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sat Dec 19 18:12:40 1998 From: zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Leonard Zwilling) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 12:12:40 -0600 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokite'svara Message-ID: <161227043789.23782.392580981399278183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> UdbhaTasiddhasvAmin was also the author of an antibrahmanical polemic, the VizeSastava, in which the superiority of the Buddha is established by comparing his character and deeds with those of Hindu deities. A translation and study of this work with its commentary (surviving in Tibetan translation only) has also been published by Dr, Johannes Schneider as "Der Lobpreis der Vorzuglichkeit des Buddha", volume 23 in the series Indica et Tibetica, Bonn, 1993. My own small contributions to the study of the VizeSastava published in 1978 and 1979 have, needless to say, been entirely superseded by the work of Dr. Schneider. At 01:52 PM 12/19/98 +0100, you wrote: >Dear John, >While going through the exchange of information on ?Siva / >Avalokite?svara, I was reminded of the Stotra you have mentioned. It has >already been translated by Dr.Johannes Schneider : `` Der Buddha als der >wahre ?Siva : Udbha.tasiddhasvaamins Sarvaj~namahe?svarastotra??, >Berliner Indologische Studien, Band 8, 1995,153-187. >As far as I know, no Sanskrit original has been traced so far. > >S.S.Bahulkar > From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sat Dec 19 17:26:58 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 12:26:58 -0500 Subject: dramiDa/dramiDa = Tamil Message-ID: <161227043780.23782.11974045161065884442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When I was living in India (Tamilnadu), I have heard it said that if you are going on any important mission, it is very unlucky to see a single brahmin man on your way. Does anyone know when this originated and if there's any reference to this any ancient books? From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sat Dec 19 17:35:00 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 12:35:00 -0500 Subject: Dravidian and Atlantis Message-ID: <161227043784.23782.2976606698530943792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like the opinion of the esteemed members of this list on the following page which talks of a linguistic connection between Dravidian and the lost continent of Atlantis. http://www.atlan.org/articles/dravida/index.html Sujatha From John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Sat Dec 19 11:54:11 1998 From: John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (John Dunne) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 12:54:11 +0100 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokite'svara Message-ID: <161227043770.23782.5285323935840160655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To add a bit to the 'siva / avalokite'svara fray, I though I would send in the following draft translation of the *Sarvaj~namahe'svarastotra* of Udbha.t.tasiddhisvaamin (Mtho btsun grub rjes, possibly also known as Mudgaragomin). According to my notes, I prepared the translation below from the Derge edition of the Tibetan canon, bstod tshogs ka 42b5-43b3 (Tibetan Translation attributed to Jalandhara and Rin chen bzang po). I am obliged to say "according to my notes" because I prepared this translation some ten years ago, and I can scarcely remember the details of my efforts. My notes indicate that this draft is deliberately somewhat literal, and that a few lines (i.e., those marked with asterisks=*) were particularly baffling to me. Unfortunately, I do not have immediate access to the aforementioned Tibetan translation, so I cannot check my translation (perhaps someone else could post it?). Despite the provisional nature of the translation, I think you will find the stotra rather interesting, since it offers what may amount to an explicit equation of Avalokite'svara and Mahe'svara. Naturally, I would welcome anyone who could identify Sanskrit fragments or formulae that might correspond to the Tibetan. Yours, John ********* Homage to the three jewels! He is the god of gods (devaatideva), The guru of the gods, The guru of gurus-- In him I seek refuge. He has such greatness, Might and lordliness, Yet he is free from the three worlds-- Homage to the Great Lord (mahe'svara) With the blaze of wisdom's fire He incinerated the triple city Whose nature is desire and confusion -- I bow to him who burned the triple city. He always bears the skull of love, And he is smeared with the ashes of compassion; The moon of morality ('siila) adorns his head-- I bow to that Great Lord. The great lord rides on the Mahaayaana bull Whose horns are love and compassion And whose eyes are joy and equanimity; In this way he travels with his wives- Generosity, morality, patience, Perseverance, meditation and such -- With the host (ga.na) and the foremost, Homage to that Great Lord. His curved horns are all pervasive; His blazing gaze has burned *the wild son of existence (bhavaatmaja) who [compells beings] *To go onward into the midst of afflicted sa.msaara. *He has a mind suitable to a cemetery *and a form (ruupa) of various emanations (nirmaa.na); *He is alway embraced by the one with the host; Homage to that Great Lord. Due to the three worlds' desire, He destroyed yearning; through accomplishing His instruction there is no sa.msaara; Homage to that Great Lord. He keeps the eight-fold precepts And accompanied by Ga.nanapati, the miracles' support (.rddhipaada) , He, completely pure, shattered the door Of the land of Mahaabhaya ; He holds the river of the dharma In which flows the waters of compassion: Homage to that Great Lord. With his trident of wisdom He pierced the demon of ignorance Who had terrified all the world -- He is the Great Lord. >???From all that is unpeaceful he liberates Those in whatever state-whether high, low or in between, Whether peaceful or unpeaceful. Homage to that Great Lord. Through his distinctive, supreme compassion He has utterly stolen away All of birth's suffering -- I bow to that Thief. The lord is replete with goodness; He has given up thirsting for desire's waters - I bow to the Great Lord Who makes all beings blissful. And since all follow him He gathers all beings together; Desire's demon could not defeat him - Homage to the conqueror of desire. He is the good, Great Lord, The remover of sins - Homage to the Great Lord Who has promised to aid all beings. Although he is harm's enemy, Through love he is attached; He has perfected all good qualities - Homage to the Great Lord. With a mere word quickly he calms Beings who are sorely afflicted By astral misfortune, plague and poverty - I bow to the Peaceful One. Through whatever merit I might have gathered By praising the lord of all May the entire world Become Great Lords of wisdom. ______________________________ John Dunne Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Sat Dec 19 17:54:59 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 12:54:59 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <01BE2A96.5F9342E0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043766.23782.8763121715172759769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > What I had meant was that to consider the > word Arya which means noble and equate it with a race of people is wrong. Recently, anaylses of the genes of Indo-Aryans and other Caucasoids using the most advanced techniques avaliable showed that the Indo-Aryans belong to the "White Race". This invalidates the concept of Arya meaning only `noble', but shows that Aryans were a race (and still are). You can claim that this race originated in India, but to claim that it does not exist is rather completely false (and denies the identity of millions). It also confirms the linguistic evidence of the common Indo-European heritage, viz. that Indo-Aryans and European Aryans form two branches of the same race. > Do we know that the RgVedic Aryans were of one race ? The earliest Aryans in India were of predominantly brachycephalic Lunar stock. Solar Aryans (predominantly dolicocephalic) came later. The term race is often loosely applied to macro-races (such as the Indo-European Caucasoids) as well as sub-races (like the Anglo-Saxon, Slav, etc.). So, if you want to be correct, the RigVedic Aryans were of different sub-races belonging to one race. Miscegenation with other races in India was curtailed by strict laws restricting marriage between Aryans and non-Aryans. So there was probably very little genetic contribution from non-Aryan races, and it is correct to say that the "RigVedic Aryans were of Aryan race". > RgVedic people <> Aryans because Arya means Noble and apparently conquered > and destroyed the Dravidians !!! Further genetic analyses have shown the Sudroids (Dravidoids and Kolarians) to be of Negroid stock, closely related to Africans. Racial conflict has always been more acute where white races have encountered black races. Cf. US South, South Africa, etc. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 19 21:50:09 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 13:50:09 -0800 Subject: Dr. J. G. Williams' e-mail Message-ID: <161227043799.23782.4735318403913679848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can some member please give the e-mail of: Prof. Joanna G. Williams. She is an art historian. Is she at Berkeley? Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bahulkar at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Sat Dec 19 12:52:31 1998 From: bahulkar at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 13:52:31 +0100 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokite'svara In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981219125411.007120d8@pop-server.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227043772.23782.5296694152894955001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear John, While going through the exchange of information on ?Siva / Avalokite?svara, I was reminded of the Stotra you have mentioned. It has already been translated by Dr.Johannes Schneider : `` Der Buddha als der wahre ?Siva : Udbha.tasiddhasvaamins Sarvaj~namahe?svarastotra??, Berliner Indologische Studien, Band 8, 1995,153-187. As far as I know, no Sanskrit original has been traced so far. S.S.Bahulkar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 19 22:16:55 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 14:16:55 -0800 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati Message-ID: <161227043801.23782.5753235044973771404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Laxmi & Saraswati "The coins of Kumaaragupta bear out this estimate of the importance and creativity of his reign. He continued with certain modifications, four types of his father, and revived four discontinued earlier types. These last suggest ... deliberately invoking the period of greatest Gupta glory in the fourth century. There were certain innovations as well. For example, the KArttikeya type, with the war god seated frontally upon his peacock vehicle, refers clearly to KumAragupta's own name. This theme is echoed in several other coin types that gratuitously include a peacock on the reverse." (p. 64, The Art of Gupta India, J. G. Williams, Princeton UP, 1982) KumAragupta (=Kaarttikeya in Hindu pantheon) named his crown prince and successor, Skandagupta. He issued an inscription at JunAgaDh inscription declaring that LakSmI selected him above "the sons of Kings". (J. F. Fleet, Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum, III, 2nd edition, 1963) In North Indian history, KumAragupta is one of the few Kings interested in KumAra cult. (Though KumAra is present in Indus valley civilization (cf. I. Mahadevan, A. Parpola)) So, I would think your coin represents Laxmi feeding (protecting?) Peacock (Kumaaragupta symbolically?), rather than Sarasvati feeding her vAhana. With kind regards, N. Ganesan <<< I have an ancient gold coin minted by great Gupta emperor, Kumargupta which depicts a goddess feeding a peacock. All the gupta emperors minted coins showing Laxmi sitting on lotus. But this coin seems to be totally different from rest of them. I have a feeling that perhaps Kumargupta tried to mint coins showing Saraswati instead Laxmi which many of the scholars simply considering `Laxmi feeding peacock'. >>> I wrote earlier: Kalidasa`s epic heroines, princesses have pets - does or peacocks. Would this be some thing like that. May be Kumaragupta shows that Laxmi (or Sarasvati?) protects him. Kumara Karthikeya has peacock as the vAhana. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 19 14:53:30 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 14:53:30 +0000 Subject: [ADMINISTRATION] Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043774.23782.10629690474290311148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just one exception to my ban on this thread. If someone has a tightly-focussed and scholarly answer to Ed Bryant's original query, then by all means go ahead. --- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Dec 19 21:11:59 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 16:11:59 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara, pANinian tradition and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227043793.23782.14897031735883259872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following verses from tirumantiram, the oldest Tantric work in Tamil and perhaps one of the oldest Tantric works, are very interesting from the point of view of Zaivite-Buddhist syncretism. It should be noted that these verses occur in the "autobiographical" section. The verses are based on kazakam edition. cErntu iruntEn2 civa maGkai tan2 paGkan2aic cErntu iruntEn2 civan2 AvaTu taN tuRai cErntu iruntEn2 civa pOtiyin2 nIzalil cErntu iruntEn2 civan2 nAmaGkaL OtiyE (tiru. 140) JAn2at talaivitan2 nanti nakar pukku Un2am il on2patu kOTi yukam tan2uL JAn2ap pAl ATTi nAtan2ai arccittu yAn2um iruntEn2 nal pOtiyin2 kIzE (tiru. 142) In the first verse ziva is said to be staying in the shade of the "zivabodhi" tree. The commentators take it to be pipal tree but we cannot be certain if tirumUlar is not calling banyan tree by the term zivabodhi. But the use of the term bodhi indicates a buddhist precursor. In the second verse, bodhi is not qualified by any modifier. Here the auhor is said to have been under the same tree. Earlier when the author's lineage of teachers is described, the following verse is the first verse. nanti aruL peRRa nAtarai nATiTin2 nantikaL nAlvar civayOka mAmun2i man2Ru tozuta pataJcali viyAkramar en2Ru ivar en2n2OTu eNmarum AmE (tiru. 129) Here the first students taught by nanti (ziva) are four nantis (four students, i.e., can2kar, can2antan2ar, can2Atan2ar, canaRkumArar based on the commentary) civayOka mAmun2i, and pataJcali (pataJjali) and viyAkramar both who worshipped in the hall, and tirumUlar himself. The form of ziva referred to here is clearly dakSiNAmUrti who in earlier texts is associated not with pipal tree but banyan tree. This opens the possibility that while the sacredness of banyan (ziva), pipal (buddhist) and saraca indica (jain) trees may be pre-Vedic in origin, the motif of a teacher sitting under a tree may very well have been buddhist in origin but adopted by zaivites or at least the term ziva bodhi suggests that the replacement of banyan with pipal could be due to buddhist influence. Since the dakSiNAmUrti (ziva as a teacher) motif is a southern motif, I suggest that the story regarding pANini must have originated in south India and travelled to northwest. Regards S. Palaniappan From John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Sat Dec 19 16:12:02 1998 From: John.Dunne at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (John Dunne) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 17:12:02 +0100 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokite'svara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043776.23782.15590749881496386053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bahulkar-ji, Aare! Nice to see you on the list. Thanks for the information on the Schneider translation-- it escaped my attention. Has the stotra yet been mentioned in the present discussion? John PS--You'll hear from me off-list for more chit-chat. At 13:52 12/19/98 +0100, you wrote: >Dear John, >While going through the exchange of information on ?Siva / >Avalokite?svara, I was reminded of the Stotra you have mentioned. It has >already been translated by Dr.Johannes Schneider : `` Der Buddha als der >wahre ?Siva : Udbha.tasiddhasvaamins Sarvaj~namahe?svarastotra??, >Berliner Indologische Studien, Band 8, 1995,153-187. >As far as I know, no Sanskrit original has been traced so far. > >S.S.Bahulkar > > ______________________________ John Dunne Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 19 20:42:44 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 02:12:44 +0530 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Message-ID: <161227043795.23782.584371452342736087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banerjee wrote: > I have been keeping close touch with VHP activities in USA and Europe. > American and European children of Indian origin DO NOT know the connection > of RSS, BJP, VHP, and HSC. > And they are fed with a very distorted kind of Hinduism. On the VHP in the USA (and how it cultivates an image that in some ways is quite different from that in India) see Arvind Rajagopal, "Expatriate Nationalism: Disjunctive Discourses", pp. 109-139 in Rajeshwari Ghose (ed.), _In Quest of a Secular Symbol - Ayodhya and After_. Perth (Australia): Indian Ocean Centre & South Asian Research Unit, Curtin University of Technology, 1996 (South Asian Issues Monograph no.2). > If the children feel alienated, it's because of the reason that capitalist > systems make people alienated -- adults and children alike. "American" > children are alienated too.[...] Since this is the _Indology_ List, we naturally discuss matters relating to India and Indians, and from time to time also to expatriate Indians; but Partha Banerjee has a point: this is _not_ merely a problem for NRIs in the US (and so it is not really an Indological matter, though some details may be of Indological interest). Basically similar, though perhaps less poignant examples of frantic identity searches and assertions can be given from European immigrant groups in North America (see, for example, the support for the IRA among ethnically Irish groups in the US). > The panacea however is not Hindutva. If there is any panacea, it's a > progressive thought process. Just like the Christian Coalition with its > separatist and isolationist right-wing Christian agenda can't solve the > problems of white America, the Sangh Parivar can't do it for > Indian-American kids or Indian-European kids. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at vsnl.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 19 20:51:21 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 02:21:21 +0530 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043797.23782.10514360588286830584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashish Chandra wrote: > It reads draviNam in Devanagiri ( as in N ). I am also asking if anyone can > point me to a Sanskrit dictionary that mentions Dramida is Tamila in > Sanskrit. B?htlingk and Roth, Sanskrit-W?rterbuch (Delhi reprint 1990, of the 1855-1875 original), vol. 3, col. 797: "N. pr. eines Volkes (und des von ihm bewohnten Gebietes) an der Ostk?ste des Dekhan's" (with references to the Mahaabhaarata, Hariva.m;sapuraa.na and Bhaagavatapuraa.na); "Collectivname f?r 5 V?lker: aandhraa.h kar.naa.takaa;s caiva gurjaraa dravi.daas tathaa / mahaaraa.s.traa iti khyaataa.h pa;ncaite dravi.daa.s sm.rtaa.h//" M. Monier-Williams, A Sanskrit-English Dictionary (Delhi, 1984), p. 501: "N.[...] of a district on the east coast of the Deccan; [...] collect. N. for 5 peoples, viz. the Andhras, Karnatakas, Gurjaras, Tailangas, and Maharashtras (cf. draavi.da below)". V.S. Apte, A Student's Sanskrit-English Dictionary (Delhi, 2976 (repr.)), p. 263. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at vsnl.com From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Sun Dec 20 09:56:57 1998 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 03:56:57 -0600 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043809.23782.9168134292705614339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banerjee writes: > My feeling is that theoretical discussions with no relevance to > praxis are almost meaningless. So is communism, and the other extreme left-wing thought that is advocated in your book, your posts on this mailing list, and in general on the Usenet. With all due respect, I don't know which world you are living in - but in mine, we have already learnt that communism and other left-wing nightmares are one of the few sure-fire ways to comprehensive social, political and economic failures. Mr. Banerjee, please stop these theoretical discussions with no relevance to praxis - out of these come extremist biased leftist hatred for respected religous organizations like the RSS and VHP. And don't give me the "I spent 15 years in RSS hence I know better than you." You are obviously old enough to know that mere age means nothing - wisdom is everything. Stop slinging mud on RSS and VHP. Why don't you make your own institution based on communism, atheism or whatever it is that you are advocating ? If your system is indeed that effective, people will desert the RSS and VHP en masse, and your system will thrive on it's own merit. Lastly, regarding the topic of "Indian children born abroad", I think that the topic itself is perhaps a little biased. I think the topic should instead be "American children with Indian parents", or something along those lines. :-) ~sumedh "who-thought-everyone-knew-communism-is-dead" From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Dec 20 09:48:17 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 04:48:17 -0500 Subject: [ADMINISTRATION] Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043805.23782.11052887895810131251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dominik (I had a feeling that might be a bad move). My thanks to Jack Llewellyn and N. Ganesan for their responses, nonethless. On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Just one exception to my ban on this thread. If someone has a > tightly-focussed and scholarly answer to Ed Bryant's original query, then > by all means go ahead. From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Dec 20 09:52:44 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 04:52:44 -0500 Subject: [ADMINISTRATION] Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043807.23782.5676051777602585652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I meant raising the Aryan spectre on my part was a bad move, of course, not the ban! On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Edwin Bryant wrote: > Thanks, Dominik (I had a feeling that might be a bad move). My thanks to > Jack Llewellyn and N. Ganesan for their responses, nonethless. From riccardo.garbini at IOL.IT Sun Dec 20 07:41:49 1998 From: riccardo.garbini at IOL.IT (riccardo garbini) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 08:41:49 +0100 Subject: Indian Gemmology Message-ID: <161227043803.23782.3231334670561452722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Scholars, I'm going to study Indian treatises on Gemmology, and with this aim I have already collected some basilar books edited in the last century by western scholars. Moreover, I got also several articles on the subject published on the Indian Journal of History of Science. Would anyone suggest other books or articles on this subject? Many thanks in advance. Riccardo Garbini. sincerely yours,riccardo From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Sun Dec 20 19:22:21 1998 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 13:22:21 -0600 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043816.23782.16221558381502780825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banerjee writes: > (SM)>So is communism, and the other extreme left-wing thought that is > >advocated in your book, your posts on this mailing list, and in > >general on the Usenet. > ___ > > Have you read my book already? Thank you. Please quote some lines from my > book where you found it to be extreme left-wing. Thanks again. As I mentioned already (in response to one of your repeated self-advertisements of your book), I haven't read your book - and I probably never will - but this is the information age. If you need references, here is a URL of all your posts on USENET: http://www.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=&DBS=2&ST=PS&defaultOp=AND&LNG=ALL&format=terse&showsort=score&maxhits=25&subjects=&groups=&authors=partha+AND+banerjee&fromdate=&todate= In it, there are about four HUNDRED articles from you that do nothing but monger hate against a variety of organizations, including the RSS and VHP. I have no wish to engage you in a discussion regarding your "philosophies". The only philosophy you sem to have exhibited in your posts is "spread hatred about everything right-wing". That philosophy merits no discussion. [...] > Normally, right-wingers refuse to read Marx, Engels, Gramsci, > Derrida, et al. They only talk against them without knowing much > (other than what they are fed with by their "scholarly" leaders). Been there, done that. And no - it didn't take us 15 years to realize what it means. Is it a coincidence that you are Bengali, and one of the only states in India to vote for communist parties is West Bengal? I visited Calcutta lately, and I was shocked to see it's state - the red colored buildings, the utter poverty, and trams that move slower than I can walk, merely because no one has the power to dismantle them out of fear for the "labor" organizations. I also visited Russia lately. Thanks, I have made my conclusions on this issue. Once upon a time you were a RSS member. 15 years later you made a complete volte face, and have dedicated your life to hate-mongering about it. Who knows, 15 years from now, you will start hate-mongering about the dead left-wing stuff you so passionately advocate now. I think I'll just wait it out. :-) [...] > (SM)>Mr. Banerjee, please stop these theoretical discussions with no > >relevance to praxis - out of these come extremist biased leftist > >hatred for respected religous organizations like the RSS and VHP. And > >don't give me the "I spent 15 years in RSS hence I know better than > >you." You are obviously old enough to know that mere age means nothing > >- wisdom is everything. > ___ > > RSS and VHP are ANYTHING but "respected religious organizations." They are > exclusionary, hate-mongering, and fascist sociopolitical bodies. RSS, VHP, > Jana Sangh, BJP, Hindu Mahasabha, Shiv Sena, and their sibling and > offspring organizations have time and time again been held responsible for > *numerous* communal riots in India since RSS' inception in 1925 where they > have been indicted of killing people and destroying their property. I am very sad to say this, but the only thing that is hate-mongering in all of this is you, Mr. Banerjee - for the past several years, you seem to have dedicated your life to mongering hate about these organizations. You seem to have little to contribute in the positive direction. As I mentioned earlier, if you think these organizations are so evil, why don't you channel your energy in the positive direction and start a "good social organization"? After all your presumptious statements about almost everything to do with Indian society, it seems like you would be able to compete with them effectively, right ? :-) > Yes, my book indeed talks about some of this violence. Oh I'm sure it does. It must wax eloquently about the evils of Hinduism. Do you have any references to the repeated genocides of the Hindu people over the centuries ? Oh I forgot. That was just another rumor started by the RSS, and millions of Hindus are just too stupid to know otherwise. You are the only intelligent person around that knows that the RSS is the root cause of everything that has gone wrong with India. Why don't you talk about what you would like to do, rather than just sling mud on other people ? Is that what Marx taught you ? Is that what the collapse of every left-wing political/religious organization has taught you ? To send four HUNDRED hate-mongering posts on USENET, many more on other mailing lists, and now to start the same thing on a respected list like Indology ? > As I said before, RSS and VHP people want immigrant Indians to > believe that they are naive, "respected religous organizations" that > have nothing to do with politics. We have challenged RSS and VHP > people of USA and Europe before to face the truth and admit to > people that they are indeed political organizations and are linked > with hate activities in India. They haven't accepted our challenge > so far. Probably, they are too busy doing "real work"? Where is the temple your left-wing cronies built ? Please let me know the address, and I will surely visit it. Oh you don't have one ? Okay, I think I'll stick to the VHP temple, thanks. Do let us know when your temple is ready, though. > This above paragraph tells me that SM is neither sensitive to issues > pertaining to Indian children born abroad nor he understands their cultural > identity problems. Have you even considered the fact that I might be one of them ? :-) Jeez. ~sumedh From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sun Dec 20 18:32:27 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 13:32:27 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043813.23782.16763476551965621753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in response to Sumedh Mungee's (SM) another usual personally-acrimonious post. I am responding with as much restraint as possible and I thank Indology for the opportunity to respond. -Partha ___ >Partha Banerjee writes: > >> My feeling is that theoretical discussions with no relevance to >> praxis are almost meaningless. > (SM)>So is communism, and the other extreme left-wing thought that is >advocated in your book, your posts on this mailing list, and in >general on the Usenet. ___ Have you read my book already? Thank you. Please quote some lines from my book where you found it to be extreme left-wing. Thanks again. I have not said anything about communism in my post. If Indology wants, we can start discussing about communism here. Otherwise, not. Normally, right-wingers refuse to read Marx, Engels, Gramsci, Derrida, et al. They only talk against them without knowing much (other than what they are fed with by their "scholarly" leaders). ___ (SM)>With all due respect, I don't know which world you are living in - but >in mine, we have already learnt that communism and other left-wing >nightmares are one of the few sure-fire ways to comprehensive social, >political and economic failures. ___ Again, I haven't said anything in my post about communism. So, I don't know where this verbiage is coming from. ___ > (SM)>Mr. Banerjee, please stop these theoretical discussions with no >relevance to praxis - out of these come extremist biased leftist >hatred for respected religous organizations like the RSS and VHP. And >don't give me the "I spent 15 years in RSS hence I know better than >you." You are obviously old enough to know that mere age means nothing >- wisdom is everything. ___ RSS and VHP are ANYTHING but "respected religious organizations." They are exclusionary, hate-mongering, and fascist sociopolitical bodies. RSS, VHP, Jana Sangh, BJP, Hindu Mahasabha, Shiv Sena, and their sibling and offspring organizations have time and time again been held responsible for *numerous* communal riots in India since RSS' inception in 1925 where they have been indicted of killing people and destroying their property. Yes, my book indeed talks about some of this violence. As I said before, RSS and VHP people want immigrant Indians to believe that they are naive, "respected religous organizations" that have nothing to do with politics. We have challenged RSS and VHP people of USA and Europe before to face the truth and admit to people that they are indeed political organizations and are linked with hate activities in India. They haven't accepted our challenge so far. ___ > (SM)>Stop slinging mud on RSS and VHP. Why don't you make your own >institution based on communism, atheism or whatever it is that you are >advocating ? If your system is indeed that effective, people will >desert the RSS and VHP en masse, and your system will thrive on it's >own merit. ___ I am neither a communist nor an atheist, therefore, I don't know what SM is up to here. ___ > (SM)>Lastly, regarding the topic of "Indian children born abroad", I think >that the topic itself is perhaps a little biased. I think the topic >should instead be "American children with Indian parents", or >something along those lines. :-) ___ This above paragraph tells me that SM is neither sensitive to issues pertaining to Indian children born abroad nor he understands their cultural identity problems. From hart at POLBOX.COM Sun Dec 20 13:47:33 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 14:47:33 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227043811.23782.16500198429563073816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:33 18.12.98 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >When the mahAbhArata potter is called bhArgava, there is no "disguise". As you >will note from the above postings, the bhRgus were Dravidian potter-priest- >warriors who adopted IA culture quite early.> We may safely accept that what is alluded to in the SvayaMvaraparvan rather confirms the supposition that certain groups of potters (in different localities and different periods) may have succeeded in obtaining high ritual status. It seems again safe to see such succesful groups as reference groups and models for those that had been "left behind", or late entrants - everywhere where the local caste structure was flexible enough to allow for upward mobility. Both the epic and Buddhist narrators seem to know well the range of instruments available to all those groups that decided to signal "claims to certain ritual statuses". In his classic paper on "Little Communities in an Indigenous Civilization" (in: Village India. Studies in the Little Community, Edited by McKim Marriott, Chicago 1955, p. 190) McKim Marriott comments on that: "Hocart points out that many of the kinds of ritual relationships which exist among Indian village castes today may be regarded as results of a "degradation of the royal style" (Hocart 1950:155 [Hocart A.M., Caste, A Comparative Study, London 1950]). [...] Even a poor hoseholder in Kishan Garhi today retains six or seven servants of different castes mainly to serve him in ceremonial way demonstrative of his own caste rank. Householders and their servants formally address each other by courtly titles. Thus the Brahman priest is called "Great King" (MahArAj) or "Learned Man" (PaNDitjI), the Potter is called "Ruler of the People" (PrajApat), the Barber "Lord Barber" (NAU ThAkur), the Carpenter "Master Craftsman" (MistrI), the Sweeper "Headman" (Mehtar) or "Sergeant" (JamAdAr), etc. About half of the twenty-four castes of Kishan Garhi also identify themselves with one or another of the three higher varNa, thus symbolizing their claims to certain ritual statuses in relation to the sacrifice or the sacrificer of Sanskrit literary form." I wish I could hear the word "bhArgava" as it was pronounced in the original context. Wouldn't it have ironical undertones? Similar to those that usually accompany some of the above high-falutin 'courtly titles'? Or like these produced by the narrator's sudden shift from the simple kumbhakArasya zAlAyAM (potter's compound) to pompous bhArgavavezma (BhRguid's abode)? And then on to funny bhArgavakarmazAlAM (BhRguid's work-compound)? It's clear that heroic epithets cannot be always treated literally. Their character points oftentimes to a conscious use of irony - especially if they are found out of heroic context. Whenever such accents are lost in the process of translation, we as the readers cannot see the narrator giving us the wink - as if telling us: "look, these are pretensions, appearances, disguises - but this here is reality". The Pandavas are of course in the rules of the game, and so they do not seem to be fooled by mere appearances. It's quite possible that they take to collecting alms in order to complete their disguise as brahmins [I,176.7]. But it is also possible that they have to do it - because they do not wish to accept food from their "bhArgava" host. Disguises seem to play an important role in the Indian literary tradition. Is there any monograph dedicated to this question? >Please also check the following postings of mine in the Indology archives. >There are other related postings as well. > >97/11/06 Question on bhRgus >97/11/08 Re: Question on bhRgus >98/04/25 Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters> As a late comer to the List I am very much grateful for the directions to your earlier postings. But I would have to master the art of using the archives yet (my first attempt ended in a failure). If it's not too much trouble, could you please forward the relevant postings to my private address (hart at polbox.com)? With highest regards, Artur Karp, M.A. University of Warsaw Poland ------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ------------- Oszcz?dzaj na komunikacji - rozmawiaj przez Internet. Twojemu rozm?wcy wystarczy telefon. www.netphone.pl ------------------------------------------------------- From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Dec 20 20:01:07 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 15:01:07 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043818.23782.5830189886083382633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suggest that E. Bryant look at the views of the members of the Theosophical Society. From what Ambedkar writes in his "What Congress and Gandhi have done to the untouchables", Edwin might find what he is looking for. In the 1917 annual session of the Indian National Congress held at Calcutta presided by Mrs. Annie Besant, the Congress passed the following resolution. "This Congress urges upon the people of India the necessity, justice and righteousness of removing all disabilities imposed by custom upon the Depressed Classes, the disabilities being of a most vexatious and oppressive character, subjecting those classes to considerable hardship and and inconvenience." Discussing the strangeness of this event, Ambedkar says the following: In the first place, the President of the Session was the late Mrs. Annie Besant. She was a well-known public figure and had many things for which she will be remembered by the future historian of India. She was the founder of the Theosophical society which has its Home at Adyar. Mrs. Annie besant was well-known for rearing up Mr. Krishnamurti, the son of a Brahmin retired Registrar for a future Massiah. Mrs. Annie Besant was known as the founder of the Home Rule League. There may be other things for which friends of Mrs. Annie Besant may claim for her a place of honour. But I don't know, that she was ever a friend of the Untouchables. So far as I knowshe felt great antipathy towards the untouchables." Then he discusses her her opinion on the question of of whether the children of the Untouchables should be admitted to the common school, written in an article headed 'The Uplift of the Depressed Classes' which appeared in the Indian Review for February 1909. Here are some excerpts from her article as quoted by Ambedkar. "In every nation we find, as the basis of the social Pyramid, a large class of people, ignorant, degraded, unclean in language and habits, people who perform many tasks which are necessary for Society, but who are despised and neglected by the very society to whose needs they minister...In India, this class forms one-sixth of the total population, and goes by the generic name of the 'Depressed Classes.' It springs from the aboriginal inhabitants of the country, conquered and enslaved by the Aryan invaders,...The children of the depressed classes need, first of all, to be taught cleanliness, outside decency of behaviour, and the earliest rudiments of education, religion and morality. Their bodies, at present, are ill-odorous and foul with the liquor and strong-smelling food out of which for generations they have been built up; it will need some generations of purer food and living to make their bodies fit to sit in the close neighbourhood of a school-room with children who have received bodies from an ancestry trained in habits of exquisite personal cleanliness, and fed on pure food-stuffs.." I would like to know if the Theosophists of Indian origin identified themselves as Aryan in the same manner as Europeans. If they and other elite Congress leaders did believe in their Aryanhood, such a thinking might have played a role in the negative attitude to social reform held by Tilak and Congressmen in the early part of the 20th century India. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 20 23:09:11 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 15:09:11 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043820.23782.4251496378798069052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Dr. S. Palaniappan for pointing the biases of Annie Besant & company. She, Madam Blavatsky, etal., - Their views on Aryanhood must be well researched. Her (and her friends') collusion with the Madras Brahmins who were monopolizig the Lawyer profession led to the Dravidian reaction to form the Justice party. E. V. Ramasamy Naicker left years in Congress to join Justice party later to protest the Brahmin domination in professional education and jobs It is significant that Dr. Subhash C. Kak, a leader among the Indigenous Aryan school writes often in Brahmavidya, Adyar library bulletin. ALB is a Theosophical socitey production, supported by the Central Govt. Kak's important writeup, denying any distinctness or independence to Dravidian languages from Sanskrit, appeared in Adyar Library Bulletin. The reference (Kak's paper) was given long ago in INDOLOGY. Anyone starting out in Indigenous Aryan school makes attempts, often very amateurish, to classify Dravidian languages, mainly Tamil whose 2200 years of Sangam literature not derivable from Sanskrit texts of that era, as mere Prakrits. Swami Vivekananda, Besant, Blavatsky, Ambedkar, Naicker, ... must be studied closely. Regards, N. Ganesan <<<< Here are some excerpts from her article as quoted by Ambedkar. "In every nation we find, as the basis of the social Pyramid, a large class of people, ignorant, degraded, unclean in language and habits, people who perform many tasks which are necessary for Society, but who are despised and neglected by the very society to whose needs they minister...In India, this class forms one-sixth of the total population, and goes by the generic name of the 'Depressed Classes.' It springs from the aboriginal inhabitants of the country, conquered and enslaved by the Aryan invaders,...The children of the depressed classes need, first of all, to be taught cleanliness, outside decency of behaviour, and the earliest rudiments of education, religion and morality. Their bodies, at present, are ill-odorous and foul with the liquor and strong-smelling food out of which for generations they have been built up; it will need some generations of purer food and living to make their bodies fit to sit in the close neighbourhood of a school-room with children who have received bodies from an ancestry trained in habits of exquisite personal cleanliness, and fed on pure food-stuffs.." I would like to know if the Theosophists of Indian origin identified themselves as Aryan in the same manner as Europeans. If they and other elite Congress leaders did believe in their Aryanhood, such a thinking might have played a role in the negative attitude to social reform held by Tilak and Congressmen in the early part of the 20th century India. >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 21 02:48:05 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 21:48:05 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043822.23782.14846167091687180898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Mungee and Dr. banerjee, This is not as forum for a debate between communism and RSS. I think there are suitable forum exist for such discussion. Kindly refrain. Happy holidays to all.. Bijoy Misra On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Sumedh Mungee wrote: > Partha Banerjee writes: > > > (SM)>So is communism, and the other extreme left-wing thought that is > > >advocated in your book, your posts on this mailing list, and in > > >general on the Usenet. > > ___ > > > > Have you read my book already? Thank you. Please quote some lines from my > > book where you found it to be extreme left-wing. Thanks again. > > As I mentioned already (in response to one of your repeated > self-advertisements of your book), I haven't read your book - and I > probably never will - but this is the information age. > > If you need references, here is a URL of all your posts on USENET: > > http://www.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=&DBS=2&ST=PS&defaultOp=AND&LNG=ALL&format=terse&showsort=score&maxhits=25&subjects=&groups=&authors=partha+AND+banerjee&fromdate=&todate= > > In it, there are about four HUNDRED articles from you that do nothing > but monger hate against a variety of organizations, including the RSS > and VHP. > > I have no wish to engage you in a discussion regarding your > "philosophies". The only philosophy you sem to have exhibited in your > posts is "spread hatred about everything right-wing". That philosophy > merits no discussion. > > > [...] > > > Normally, right-wingers refuse to read Marx, Engels, Gramsci, > > Derrida, et al. They only talk against them without knowing much > > (other than what they are fed with by their "scholarly" leaders). > > Been there, done that. And no - it didn't take us 15 years to realize > what it means. Is it a coincidence that you are Bengali, and one of > the only states in India to vote for communist parties is West Bengal? > I visited Calcutta lately, and I was shocked to see it's state - the > red colored buildings, the utter poverty, and trams that move slower > than I can walk, merely because no one has the power to dismantle them > out of fear for the "labor" organizations. I also visited Russia > lately. Thanks, I have made my conclusions on this issue. > > Once upon a time you were a RSS member. 15 years later you made a > complete volte face, and have dedicated your life to hate-mongering > about it. Who knows, 15 years from now, you will start hate-mongering > about the dead left-wing stuff you so passionately advocate now. I > think I'll just wait it out. :-) > > [...] > > > (SM)>Mr. Banerjee, please stop these theoretical discussions with no > > >relevance to praxis - out of these come extremist biased leftist > > >hatred for respected religous organizations like the RSS and VHP. And > > >don't give me the "I spent 15 years in RSS hence I know better than > > >you." You are obviously old enough to know that mere age means nothing > > >- wisdom is everything. > > ___ > > > > RSS and VHP are ANYTHING but "respected religious organizations." They are > > exclusionary, hate-mongering, and fascist sociopolitical bodies. RSS, VHP, > > Jana Sangh, BJP, Hindu Mahasabha, Shiv Sena, and their sibling and > > offspring organizations have time and time again been held responsible for > > *numerous* communal riots in India since RSS' inception in 1925 where they > > have been indicted of killing people and destroying their property. > > I am very sad to say this, but the only thing that is hate-mongering > in all of this is you, Mr. Banerjee - for the past several years, you > seem to have dedicated your life to mongering hate about these > organizations. You seem to have little to contribute in the positive > direction. > > As I mentioned earlier, if you think these organizations are so evil, > why don't you channel your energy in the positive direction and start > a "good social organization"? After all your presumptious statements > about almost everything to do with Indian society, it seems like you > would be able to compete with them effectively, right ? :-) > > > Yes, my book indeed talks about some of this violence. > > Oh I'm sure it does. It must wax eloquently about the evils of > Hinduism. Do you have any references to the repeated genocides of the > Hindu people over the centuries ? Oh I forgot. That was just another > rumor started by the RSS, and millions of Hindus are just too stupid > to know otherwise. You are the only intelligent person around that > knows that the RSS is the root cause of everything that has gone wrong > with India. > > Why don't you talk about what you would like to do, rather than just > sling mud on other people ? Is that what Marx taught you ? Is that > what the collapse of every left-wing political/religious organization > has taught you ? To send four HUNDRED hate-mongering posts on USENET, > many more on other mailing lists, and now to start the same thing on a > respected list like Indology ? > > > As I said before, RSS and VHP people want immigrant Indians to > > believe that they are naive, "respected religous organizations" that > > have nothing to do with politics. We have challenged RSS and VHP > > people of USA and Europe before to face the truth and admit to > > people that they are indeed political organizations and are linked > > with hate activities in India. They haven't accepted our challenge > > so far. > > Probably, they are too busy doing "real work"? Where is the temple > your left-wing cronies built ? Please let me know the address, and I > will surely visit it. Oh you don't have one ? Okay, I think I'll stick > to the VHP temple, thanks. Do let us know when your temple is ready, > though. > > > This above paragraph tells me that SM is neither sensitive to issues > > pertaining to Indian children born abroad nor he understands their cultural > > identity problems. > > Have you even considered the fact that I might be one of them ? :-) > > Jeez. > > ~sumedh > From hart at POLBOX.COM Mon Dec 21 07:13:00 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 08:13:00 +0100 Subject: Prof. Lutze Message-ID: <161227043826.23782.16262177792246764771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the List, Could any of you help me in locating Prof. Lutze's e-mail address? Thanking you in advance, Artur Karp ------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ------------- Oszcz?dzaj na komunikacji - rozmawiaj przez Internet. Twojemu rozm?wcy wystarczy telefon. www.netphone.pl ------------------------------------------------------- From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 21 14:19:06 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 09:19:06 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <9058fa11.367d5783@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227043838.23782.1505565432939962388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > I would like to know if the Theosophists of Indian origin identified > themselves as Aryan in the same manner as Europeans. If they and other elite > Congress leaders did believe in their Aryanhood, such a thinking might have > played a role in the negative attitude to social reform held by Tilak and > Congressmen in the early part of the 20th century India. Thank you for your comments and lengthy quotes from Ambedkar. Figueira, in her book 'The Exotic: A Decadent Quest' finds groups such as the Theosophists forming a kind of bridge between Orientalism and Nazism (they were officially suppressed during the 3rd Reich, which she suggests underscores their influence). In the second volume of 'The Secret Doctrine', Blavatsky describes seven cycles and seven root races. One of these root races was the Aryans which had various underraces one of which was the Indians, another, the Jews. Yet another Aryan underrace, the Teutonic was on the ascendency in her system. On a related note, the theosophist Olcott, was still partial to an Indian Aryan homeland at the end of the 19th century (most Europeans had abandoned such an idea by the middle of the century). Also of relevance, Blavatsky held the Vedas to be thousands of years older than the date contemporary scholars were advocating. Her grounds for so doing combine statements taken from Muller (that the Vedas represented the infancy of humankind), and the claim by geologists of her day that humans could be traced back to Tertiary times (240, 000 years ago). I haven't found any Aryan discourse in Tilak (except his two books on astronomy, of course). Does anyone know of any? Best, Edwin Bryant From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 21 14:22:51 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 09:22:51 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043840.23782.16513896210505738208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, J. E. Llewellyn wrote: > But then the idea of Aryan in Dayanand's usage still has something to do > with migratory groups. In the eighth chapter of _Satyarth Prakash_ Dayanand > writes that humans first appeared in Tibet at the beginning of history. > Then an argument developed between the good people (the Aryans) and the bad > people (the Dasyus), and the Aryans were forced to migrate south into India. > This statement is the only comment I have encountered from Dayananda where he engages directly with western scholarship, however vaguely, on the Aryan issue. > Lest you think that this is just the standard European scholarly theory > about Aryan migration, but with a little bad geography thrown in, I should > add that Dayanand goes on to bring up the theory that the Aryans migrated > into India from Iran (a theory whose source he does not explicitly > identify), but he responds, "This idea is entirely false." I wonder if he is referring to William Jones, who held this view. Muller simply held "somewhere in Asia." Before a 'European homeland' was promoted by Gordon Latham around 1860, most scholars held that the 'homeland' was in the Pamir/Bactria area. > In another place in _Satyarth Prakash_ at the beginning of the eleventh > chapter, the term "Arya" occurs again, to refer to the people of India, who > were the universal rulers of the ancient world, at least according to > Dayanand. Here again Dayanand insists that Aryans are just good people, but > it is clear enough that he has a specific people in mind. So, to make a > long story short, the term "Arya" both is and is not a racial designation in > the early discourse of the Arya Samaj. How do you like them apples? You are right. Dayananda seems to use the term culturally, and racially. But there is no reference to Western Indologists. He seems to be operating and engaging in a context exclusively composed of Sanskrit texts with no reference of other types of pramANa (except for the comment on Iran, that you noted above). Even his comment that the Aryans once ruled the world doesn't attempt to coopt the implication of the IE language connection or reverse the logic of the IE linguistic argument, so to speak. It is simply based on a literal reading of Mahabharata statements. Vivekananda and Aurobindo, on the other hand, seem much more up on what Western critical scholars were doing. The question I have, accordingly, is why did Dayananda use the word 'Arya' for his Samaj? Was it a term that came spontaneously to him from his own reading of Sanskrit texts, or was he picking up on the Aryan debates raging in Europe (to which I can find no reference in his works)? Best, Edwin Bryant From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 21 18:01:37 1998 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 10:01:37 -0800 Subject: Indian children born abroad Message-ID: <161227043852.23782.13793768852113157086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have accidentally mis-posted (without the appropriate heading)a response to Mr. Ganeshan's posting re. the thread at item 42 'Indian children born abroad' and it now appears in Item 7. under the heading 'No Subject'. My regrets for the inconvenience. With best wishes. Asha Naidu ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 21 15:17:05 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 10:17:05 -0500 Subject: APOLOGY TO SRI GANESAN Message-ID: <161227043842.23782.1232367229565951857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar All, I must apologize to you all, and Sri Ganesan, for having mistaken Georg V. Simson's remark "stubborness of clinginging" to AIT, with Sri Ganesan's. My sincerest apologies to him for distracting him from his pursuits to this unscholarly discussion about who-said-what. I also apologize to others who have had to endure the unhelpful exchange of useless clarifications that have been flying forth from me in this regard. Regards Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 21 15:34:30 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 10:34:30 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Message-ID: <161227043846.23782.15943599634498245175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ahimsa sakalo dharma. Ahimsa is not only the absence of himsa but the active opposition of it (himsa). - Paramhamsa Yogananda (Autobiography of a Yogi) Shri Banerjee, it is not in the saying but in the doing. Our forefathers realized this a long time ago and have preached it through their works and words. No more comments on this please. Please visit http://www.idrf.org for some of the work "hate-mongers" have done and are doing. Thanks Ashish [ Sumedh's and Shri Banerjee's dialogue deleted] From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 21 15:43:52 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 10:43:52 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Message-ID: <161227043848.23782.1245671345522662828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos wrote : Where did your book appear, Partha Banerjee? It is available online at http://www.foil.org/politics/hindutva/partha.html It is called "In the Belly of the Beast : The Hindu Supremacist RSS and BJP of India. An Insider's Story". It would be good for one of the scholars here to review this book. Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 21 15:54:43 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 10:54:43 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043850.23782.10744251084120459785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant wrote : The question I have, accordingly, is why did Dayananda use the word 'Arya' for his Samaj? Was it a term that came spontaneously to him from his own reading of Sanskrit texts, or was he picking up on the Aryan debates raging in Europe (to which I can find no reference in his works)? My grandfather is an Arya Samajist and to the best of my formation on this topic, Arya Samaj was founded to rid Hinduism from its "ritualistic and dogmatic" practices that Swami Dayananda had criticized. It was meant to be of people committed to the authority of the Vedas alone. Such people were deemed to be acting towards, and were proponents of, an Arya Samaj, a society of decent people. I have never heard that he used the word Arya to either support a foreign homeland theory, or conversely, to debunk one. Can anyone tell me why were there "raging Aryan debates" in Europe, i.e. their locus standi. Thanks Ashish From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Dec 21 19:02:28 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 11:02:28 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043854.23782.13659767849731158272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, J. E. Llewellyn wrote: > > > But then the idea of Aryan in Dayanand's usage still has something to do > > with migratory groups. In the eighth chapter of _Satyarth Prakash_ Dayanand > > writes that humans first appeared in Tibet at the beginning of history. > > Then an argument developed between the good people (the Aryans) and the bad > > people (the Dasyus), and the Aryans were forced to migrate south into India. > > > This statement is the only comment I have encountered from Dayananda where > he engages directly with western scholarship, however vaguely, on the > Aryan issue. > > > Lest you think that this is just the standard European scholarly theory > > about Aryan migration, but with a little bad geography thrown in, I should > > add that Dayanand goes on to bring up the theory that the Aryans migrated > > into India from Iran (a theory whose source he does not explicitly > > identify), but he responds, "This idea is entirely false." > > I wonder if he is referring to William Jones, who held this view. Muller > simply held "somewhere in Asia." Before a 'European homeland' was > promoted by Gordon Latham around 1860, most scholars held that the > 'homeland' was in the Pamir/Bactria area. > > I believe the idea of a homeland in Tibet or Tian Shan arises from the geographical location of Mt. Meru suggested in Indian astronomical and Puranic texts. According to the astronomers, Meru lied on the same meridian as Lanka, but far to the north. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Mon Dec 21 10:03:35 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 11:03:35 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981220144733.007a8100@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227043830.23782.16687770123100702238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote (I quote only part of his message): >I wish I could hear the word "bhArgava" as it was pronounced in the >original context. Wouldn't it have ironical undertones? Similar to those >that usually accompany some of the above high-falutin 'courtly titles'? Or >like these produced by the narrator's sudden shift from the simple >kumbhakArasya zAlAyAM (potter's compound) to pompous bhArgavavezma >(BhRguid's abode)? And then on to funny bhArgavakarmazAlAM (BhRguid's >work-compound)? > >It's clear that heroic epithets cannot be always treated literally. Their >character points oftentimes to a conscious use of irony - especially if >they are found out of heroic context. Whenever such accents are lost in the >process of translation, we as the readers cannot see the narrator giving us >the wink - as if telling us: "look, these are pretensions, appearances, >disguises - but this here is reality". > I doubt very much that this is a valid method of interpreting the text of the Mahabharata. Irony is a rhetorical device, and we may expect to find it sometimes in the dialogues, which are often of a polemical character. But does the narrator himself ever use irony in the narrative parts of the story? Please give convincing examples! Heroic epithets out of context can be explained as a feature of the formulaic style of (originally) oral composition and not as examples of irony, I would say. Best regards, G.v.Simson From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL Mon Dec 21 10:05:10 1998 From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (P.Vlugter) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 11:05:10 +0100 Subject: JNU Guesthouse/hostel Message-ID: <161227043828.23782.12908742355088462684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, A very unacademic question, if allowed by the moderator, but even scholars have to eat and sleep: does anyone have infromation on guesthouses or hostels connected with JNU, New Delhi and how one can apply to stay there? Many thanks in advance Thomas de Bruijn From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 21 19:08:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 11:08:34 -0800 Subject: APOLOGY TO SRI GANESAN Message-ID: <161227043857.23782.11561752208379520331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< I must apologize to you all, and Sri Ganesan, for having mistaken Georg V. Simson's remark "stubborness of clinginging" to AIT, with Sri Ganesan's. My sincerest apologies to him for distracting him from his pursuits to this unscholarly discussion about who-said-what. I also apologize to others who have had to endure the unhelpful exchange of useless clarifications that have been flying forth from me in this regard. >>>> Thank you very much. You are truly noble (Arya in Sanskrit, cAnROn in Tamil). Just a sample (Sorry, I have to do this because what you said earlier in every word about me is quite misleading). I quoted my bibliographic skills. This was done to show that I have spent about 20 years of my time in Indological pursuits. You said it demomnstrates me not being 'humble' and N. Rajaram and S. Talageri can write about 'n' books etc., They are welcome to do so. Both are powerful. They are pushing varNa-enhancing theories to millions of people in lavish publications. They are welcome to join Indology & discuss their home-grown pseudo-scientific theories with all of us here. One historical note: Dr. Subhash Kak used to write here. People were not buying his ideas/theories. Soon, he realized his market is elsewhere. Not seen in Indology for 4+ years. We welcome any Indigenous Aryan school theorist to join Indology and discuss their theories scientifically amidst all of us. My best wishes to all your life's pursuits. With kind regards, N. Ganesan, PhD Lead Engineer Loads & Dynamics Division, Lockheed Martin, Houston My NASA-Johnson e-mail: nas_ng at vaxp.jsc.nasa.gov ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 21 05:56:59 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 11:26:59 +0530 Subject: Q:Raghuuttama, the author of Bhaashyacandra Message-ID: <161227043824.23782.5211636925989710699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev wrote: > does anybody of you know anything about Raghuuttama who wrote a > commentary on "Nyaayabhaashya" called "Bhaashyacandra"? He seems to > have lived between XIII and XVI cent. a.d. His work was published by > MM. G.Jha in Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series (No281) in 1920. B.N.K. Sharma, in his _History of the Dvaita School of Vedanta and Its Literature_, mentions one Raghuuttama Tiirtha who lived 1557-1596. According to Sharma, this author wrote 7 works (listed in the book); there is no "Bhaa.syacandra" listed among them. This author was from northern Karnataka (modern Bijapur district). If the Raghuuttama whom you are looking for turns out to be the same, this would be an interesting discovery. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at vsnl.com From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Dec 21 11:05:59 1998 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 12:05:59 +0100 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokite'svara In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981219125411.007120d8@pop-server.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227043832.23782.9396575947513543032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 19 Dec 98 at 12:54, John Dunne wrote: > To add a bit to the 'siva / avalokite'svara fray, I though I would > send in the following draft translation of the > *Sarvaj~namahe'svarastotra* of Udbha.t.tasiddhisvaamin (Mtho btsun > grub rjes, possibly also known as Mudgaragomin). See also: Johannes Schneider, "Der Buddha als der wahre ;Siva. Udbha.tasiddhasvaamins Sarvaj;namahe;svarastotra", in: Berliner Indologische Studien 8 (1995), pp. 153-187 (contains an edition of the Tibetan text together with a German translation). From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 21 21:22:21 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 13:22:21 -0800 Subject: APOLOGY TO SRI GANESAN Message-ID: <161227043864.23782.16597840356559395188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Thank you for calling me Arya Dr. Ganesan. You are Arya too :). On a personal note Dr. Ganesan, where are you currently and where do you work out of ? >>> Dear Thiru. Asish, aneka koTi vandanam (In Tamil, vaNakkam kaNakkila.) I am pleased to receive the rare honor of admission into Aryanhood. My professional address is given in my original to your post "APOLOGY TO SRI GANESAN". Ever yours n. ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 21 18:25:16 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 13:25:16 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043856.23782.6018438120939777993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote : <<< I believe the idea of a homeland in Tibet or Tian Shan arises from the geographical location of Mt. Meru suggested in Indian astronomical and Puranic texts. According to the astronomers, Meru lied on the same meridian as Lanka, but far to the north. >>> Correct me if I am wrong but the Vedic peoples' movement eastwards towards the Ganga river is prior to the writing of the Purans. That would indicate that the Vedic people moved from the Sarasvati region eastwards and came to be known as Pauraniks. Would that still agree with the idea of a Tibetan homeland ? Ashish From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 21 22:01:09 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 14:01:09 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043869.23782.13200009096880791000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kamban wrote the Tamil Ramayanam in 9th or 11th century AD. One of the greatest pieces of world literature. For a 10% translation and a historical introduction, see G. Hart, The Book of the Forest, AraNyakANTAm of Kampan, Univ. of California press. It is of note that When Hanuman meets Ravana in his court, he talks to Ravana in vaTamozi (Northern language) whereas when Hanuman meets Seethai in the forest of Asoka trees he comforts her in chaste Tamil to tell the news that Rama will come soon to rescue her. (Told to me by an Annamalai univ. Professor, I have to check Kamban.) What a difference with: 1) R. N. Dandekar saying Ramayana is a story where Northen noble Arya goes to civilize the uncultured Southern Dravidians. or, 2) E. V. R. Naicker saying that Ramayana is a story describing how Dravidian leader, well versed in music and a devotee of "Siva, was cunningly defeated by Northern Aryans. These views are their own, not mine :-) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Mon Dec 21 12:17:30 1998 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 14:17:30 +0200 Subject: Indian Gemmology Message-ID: <161227043836.23782.2894470789011645912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 20 Dec 98 at 8:41, riccardo garbini wrote: > Date sent: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:41:49 +0100 > Send reply to: Indology > From: riccardo garbini > Subject: Indian Gemmology > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear Scholars, > I'm going to study Indian treatises on Gemmology, and with this aim I have > already collected some basilar books edited in the last century by western > scholars. Moreover, I got also several articles on the subject published on > the Indian Journal of History of Science. Would anyone suggest other books > or articles on this subject? Many thanks in advance. Riccardo Garbini. > > sincerely yours,riccardo I suppose, you know Garbe's and Finot's editions. In around 1900-1920 B. Laufer wrote several monographs on gems (and other articles of ancient international trade) using Chinese, Greek and Latin, Indian and Arabic sources. My book, K. Karttunen, India and the Hellenistic world, Helsinki 1997 contains some further references and discusses the stones from the viewpoint of Greek and Latin literature (p. 233-252). See also G. Wojtilla, Indian precious stones in the ancient East and West, Acta Orientalia 27, Budapest 1973, 211-224. From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 21 19:39:55 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 14:39:55 -0500 Subject: APOLOGY TO SRI GANESAN Message-ID: <161227043862.23782.10735701924978295520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Ganesan wrote : <<< I quoted my bibliographic skills. This was done to show that I have spent about 20 years of my time in Indological pursuits. You said it demomnstrates me not being 'humble' and N. Rajaram and S. Talageri can write about 'n' books etc., They are welcome to do so. Both are powerful. They are pushing varNa-enhancing theories to millions of people in lavish publications. They are welcome to join Indology & discuss their home-grown pseudo-scientific theories with all of us here. One historical note: Dr. Subhash Kak used to write here. People were not buying his ideas/theories. Soon, he realized his market is elsewhere. Not seen in Indology for 4+ years. We welcome any Indigenous Aryan school theorist to join Indology and discuss their theories scientifically amidst all of us. >>> What I meant Dr. Ganesan was that it took just such little criticism (not even) for you to get incited about a small remark (a mistake on my part as it turned out). I don't know N.Rajaram and S.Talageri and am not familiar with their works. My only peeve was that you ascribe some "motive" behind their research given the fact that both are South Indian Brahmins. Never heard of Dr. Kak either. When you term someone else's theory as pseudo-scientific, what exactly is the scientific standard ? If one is to speak against the AIT, one is bound to come up against your experience and the "120 years of research in Europe" that is considered the standard here ? Or is it. Pardon me but I am presuming that you and the other historians who write and post here have been traditionally the proponents of AIT. So just as there are holes in debunking AIT, there are holes in accepting it. Preferring one to the other does not automatically imply considering one as being "scientific" and the other as "motivated by rightist movements". Such generalizations are rampant everywhere and hence, arrogating to oneself the sole title of "scientific"-method bearers is not correct. Again, I would like to clarify that I am merely stating this based on my own perceptions of why the Europeans are intent on pushing the AIT, but am in no way implying everyone here considers themselves as being scientific and all others as not. This is absolutely my opinion and it may be wrong. But in the absence of enough knowledge, I am meanwhile ascribing to the proponents of AIT the same motives just as the opponents of AIT are ascribed a "rightist Brahminical motive". I accept that this approach is unscientific but so far, my gut accepts it. Also, I have far less proof of questioning you all and the AIT, compared with the proof you have of questioning the (motives of) debunkers of AIT, given the current political situation in India. But like I had said, there are gaps everywhere. I hope to read more of the postings here and learn more about my own country, culture, peoples, things that a majority of my own countrymen unaware of. Thank you for calling me Arya Dr. Ganesan. You are Arya too :). On a personal note Dr. Ganesan, where are you currently and where do you work out of ? Ashish From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 21 22:49:03 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 14:49:03 -0800 Subject: Madame Blavatsky Message-ID: <161227043871.23782.3070139652538000134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It appears one of the founders of Theosophical society was a racist. Any studies on Madame Blavatsky, Theosophical society's Nazi connections? In the http://www.dejanews.com searches, 100s of postings come up for searches like "Blavatsky racism" or "Blavatsky Aryan" etc., For Blavatsky's dupes, see Smithsonian magazine, May 1995. Did Mme. Blavatsky know Sanskrit? For how many years she was in India (Madras)? Some samples given from Usergroups. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Blavatsky - Theosophy - Mankind Author: GaiaNM Date: 1998/11/29 Forums: alt.metaphysics.lightwork Sorry, but Blavatsky was not what I consider a terribly enlightened person....she was very racist and patriarchal. ------------------------------------------------------ Author: Padraic42 Date: 1998/10/30 Forums: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Modern man was a distant remnant of the original god-like race whose psychic abilities had atrophied as a result of breeding with biological inferiors (again, some of these ideas had first been suggested by H.P. Blavatsky and other Theosophists.) Lanz differed from List by believing that Judaism and Christianity had originally been Aryan religions. As God's chosen people Aryans were the least contaminated race of humanity; ------------------------------------------------------ Madame Blavatsky: Ugly Sub-human SLAV Author: Patriot88 Forums: alt.politics.nationalism.white, alt.feedme I purposely might add this little tidbit: Madame Blavatsky. She is very representative among many Asiatic Slavic women. Her round, flat face reveals her Mongoloid genes and Gook eyeballs. Despite her pompous glamorization of all things truly Aryan, at least her immaterial and non-empirical attempts too, she was physically repulsive and by no proverbial stretch of the imagination, not an Aryan, [...] She is not White but a product of nature's genetic garbage. She ought to be dug up and shot! ------------------------------------------------------ Author: Randolph Parrish author profile Email: rbp233 at primenet.com view thread Date: 1996/08/05 Forums: alt.messianic Message segment 2 of 2 - Get Previous Segment - Get All 2 Segments Dietrich Eckart, one of the leading Thulists, became a mentor to Hitler, and said that he had recieved 'word' that one day he would tutor 'a vessel for the anti-christ' who would lead the Aryans to victory over the Jews. As he lay dying, he said, 'Follow Hitler! He will dance, but it is I who have called the tune! I have initiated him inot the Secret Doctrine (ie, of Madame Blavatsky) opened his centers to vision and given him the means to communicate with the powers'. (Mein Kampf was later dedicated by Hitler to Eckart.) [...] Dr. Theodore Morell, Hitler's personal physician, used to draw samples of the Fuhrer's blood for him to stare at and contemplate. Himmler requied his SS to swear blood oaths, belived in reincarnation and karma, and designated Wewelsburg castle as a temple for his new SS order. He carried with him a noteboodk of verses which he had copied out from the Bhagavad-Gita and the Vedas. Every July 2 he descended at midnight into the crypt of Henry I of Saxony to commune with the spirit of the dead king. He dispatched agents to search throughout the world for occult relics. (Some of the Indiana Jones' movies reflect this) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Email: loqqi at aol.com view thread Date: 1998/07/27 all the German neo-pagans of those decades were intensely anti-Semitic. They were obsessed with race, partly because of their political agenda (which involved the unification of Germany along ethnic lines), but also because of influences such as Darwin and Madame Blavatsky -- the latter of whom even used the swastika in her seal for the Theosophical Society. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Email: sidonian at ggms.com view thread Date: 1997/08/23 Forums: alt.pagan In my opinion,the Nazi's and Mme. Blavatsky were under the asumption that since the lagnuage of the Vedas (Sanskrit) is related to the European languages, that they must have been written by white people who invaded India, conquered the indiginous darker-skinned people (the Dravidians) and set up a a caste system that evntually failed thus explaining why most Indians, even in the upper castes, are not as fair as Europeans. I don't think Mme. Blavatsky was overtly racist, but it seems that her ideas were used by the Nazis to endorse their racist beliefs. I think that these theories come from an over-simplification of history. Back in Blavatsky's day, people of different color were still considered different "races." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Author: walter alter author profile Email: walter at teleport.com view thread Date: 1996/03/24 Bailey become active in the occult movement in 1915 when she joined the Theosophical Society, which was then headquarted in Hollywood, California. Her introduction to theosophy was through two English women of the ``same [aristocratic] social status'' as she, who then introduced her to two other elderly women who had been personal students of Helena Blavatsky. She advanced rapidly in their ranks and in 1921 married Foster Bailey, who had become the national secretary of Blavatsky's Theosophy Society in 1919, and was also a high-ranking Freemason. At the end of 1919, Alice Bailey became editor of the Theosophical magazine {The Messenger.} The job only lasted until 1920 when her husband led a faction fight for control of the Theosophy Society at their Chicago convention. Both Baileys had argued for a rapid infiltration of non-occult institutions, but failed to win the majority of the Theosophists to their position. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- & many. many more on Blavatsky, Nazis, Aryans, Racism etc., ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Dec 21 21:26:07 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 16:26:07 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: <367E2A30.22882712@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043865.23782.18162854486313241444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for your supportive comments, Robert Zydenbos. I didn't know there was a third book written by an ex-RSS. The only one I know is the one by Des Raj Goyal (RSS, published in 1979 from Delhi, Radha Krishna Prakashan). Goyal is now a veteran member of the progressive group Communalism Combat. He also belongs to CPI of India now. My book "In the Belly of the Beast" is now published from Delhi (Ajanta Books International). I have some copies with me here in U.S. in case someone is interested. This is a not-for-profit venture. Like Subbayyaa, I was enlisted by RSS leaders to go to jail during the Emergency, but instead they later put me in charge of publishing and distributing underground anti-Indira Gandhi literature in Calcutta. Just a brief history. -Partha p.s. -- Is there any way for me to get a copy of Subbayya's book? ________ >> Partha Banerjee writes: >> [...] >> Once upon a time you were a RSS member. 15 years later you made a >> complete volte face, and have dedicated your life to hate-mongering >> about it. Who knows, 15 years from now, you will start hate-mongering >> about the dead left-wing stuff you so passionately advocate now. I >> think I'll just wait it out. :-) > >There is a similar publication in Kannada: > >A.K. Subbayya, _Aar. Es. Es.: antara.mga_. Bangalore: Sa.mgaati >prakaa;sana, 1988. 80 pp., price Rs. 10. > >Subbayya was with the RSS for 11 years and also went to prison with >fellow members during Indira Gandhi's emergency. According to the >author, the Hinduism propounded by the RSS is typical of the highest >castes, and the leadership is keen on preserving the caste system (p. >12). The organisation demands slavish obedience to its leaders (p. 17), >and the brand of religion which it propagates is, unlike that of truly >traditional institutions like ma.thas etc., a diseased religion of >hatred (p. 14). > >This sounds very much like what I hear from my wife's cousin, who too >was an enthusiastic RSS member once upon a time. And he is a >traditionally devout, very patriotic, brahmin gentleman, and he cannot >possibly be accused of being a communist or Hinduism-hater. > >Such reports should at least alert us that perhaps not all is fine and >glorious about those three-letter organisations. > >I have written in detail about how the best-selling Kannada novelist >seeks to promote the RSS through his novels, in my _The Calf Became An >Orphan - a study of contemporary Kannada fiction_ (Pondicherry: >EFEO/IFP, 1996): xenophobia, communal discrimination, distorted readings >of history and world geography, misrepresentations of Christian >religious practices (no, sorry, I am not in the least interested in >'defending Christianity', and I am not a Christian either, thank you), >and much more (lengthy, detailed summaries are given, with page numbers >and everything else for those who wish to check). I know the author in >question personally (he too is a distant relative-in-law of mine), and >as a person I cannot think of him as 'evil' or anything of the kind; he >seems rather misled and ill-informed. (And, very noteworthily, he too >has moved away from his original energetic enthusiasm in his more recent >novels.) > >Where did your book appear, Partha Banerjee? > >-- > >Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >Mysore (India) >e-mail zydenbos at vsnl.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 21 11:00:00 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 16:30:00 +0530 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Message-ID: <161227043834.23782.16038576141448055454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sumedh Mungee wrote: > > Partha Banerjee writes: > [...] > Once upon a time you were a RSS member. 15 years later you made a > complete volte face, and have dedicated your life to hate-mongering > about it. Who knows, 15 years from now, you will start hate-mongering > about the dead left-wing stuff you so passionately advocate now. I > think I'll just wait it out. :-) There is a similar publication in Kannada: A.K. Subbayya, _Aar. Es. Es.: antara.mga_. Bangalore: Sa.mgaati prakaa;sana, 1988. 80 pp., price Rs. 10. Subbayya was with the RSS for 11 years and also went to prison with fellow members during Indira Gandhi's emergency. According to the author, the Hinduism propounded by the RSS is typical of the highest castes, and the leadership is keen on preserving the caste system (p. 12). The organisation demands slavish obedience to its leaders (p. 17), and the brand of religion which it propagates is, unlike that of truly traditional institutions like ma.thas etc., a diseased religion of hatred (p. 14). This sounds very much like what I hear from my wife's cousin, who too was an enthusiastic RSS member once upon a time. And he is a traditionally devout, very patriotic, brahmin gentleman, and he cannot possibly be accused of being a communist or Hinduism-hater. Such reports should at least alert us that perhaps not all is fine and glorious about those three-letter organisations. I have written in detail about how the best-selling Kannada novelist seeks to promote the RSS through his novels, in my _The Calf Became An Orphan - a study of contemporary Kannada fiction_ (Pondicherry: EFEO/IFP, 1996): xenophobia, communal discrimination, distorted readings of history and world geography, misrepresentations of Christian religious practices (no, sorry, I am not in the least interested in 'defending Christianity', and I am not a Christian either, thank you), and much more (lengthy, detailed summaries are given, with page numbers and everything else for those who wish to check). I know the author in question personally (he too is a distant relative-in-law of mine), and as a person I cannot think of him as 'evil' or anything of the kind; he seems rather misled and ill-informed. (And, very noteworthily, he too has moved away from his original energetic enthusiasm in his more recent novels.) Where did your book appear, Partha Banerjee? -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at vsnl.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Dec 21 21:53:03 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 16:53:03 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications In-Reply-To: <01BE2CCD.7E7B9A20.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043867.23782.10522445818726667184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashish Chandra writes: >Ahimsa sakalo dharma. ... _____________ Yes, this is what Ramakrishna Paramahansa or Sri Chaitanya taught us. We only hope the saffron brigade of "Hindutva" (i.e., a distorted and exclusionary version of Hinduism) followed them. From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 21 22:18:42 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 17:18:42 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Message-ID: <161227043873.23782.4758615243922513304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Then and then alone you are Hindu when the distress of anyone bearing that name comes to your heart and makes you feel as if your own son were in distress." This was said by Swami Vivekananda in one of his lectures printed in the book "Lectures from Colombo to Almora". Swami Vivekananda is considered an ideal freedom fighter. In fact, there have been several bauddhiks (spiritual discourses) wherein time and again it is emphasized Ramakrishna Paramhamsa, Swami Vivekananda and Guru Aurobindo Ghosh have been instrumental in the re-awakening of the spiritual theme of dharma that flows through India. In fact the word Hindutva itself is defined as the "defence of Dharma". This is no sham as might be pointed out later by some. The RSS actually inculcates these values through its branches and camps. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: Partha Banerjee [SMTP:partha at CAPITAL.NET] Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 4:53 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Indian children born abroad -- some (more) clarifications Ashish Chandra writes: >Ahimsa sakalo dharma. ... _____________ Yes, this is what Ramakrishna Paramahansa or Sri Chaitanya taught us. We only hope the saffron brigade of "Hindutva" (i.e., a distorted and exclusionary version of Hinduism) followed them. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 21 13:49:37 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 18:49:37 +0500 Subject: Dravidian and Atlantis Message-ID: <161227043844.23782.12790625258445965303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sujatha: I have looked at the article. It does not make sense linguistically. The so-called Dravidian words cited from Burrow and Emeneau are hardly recognizable. except one, the word meaning 'sandals' (Proto-Dr. *kerppu). It could be a chance resemblance. The person who wrote this article is not a linguist, to be sure. Bh.K. At 12:35 19/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >I would like the opinion of the esteemed members of this list on the >following page which talks of a linguistic connection between Dravidian and >the lost continent of Atlantis. > >http://www.atlan.org/articles/dravida/index.html > >Sujatha > > ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Dec 21 21:28:14 1998 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 20:28:14 -0100 Subject: Please ignore... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981221081300.0079db70@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227043859.23782.6171515828680517604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please ignore.. sorry for the inconvenience, but I have to test the reply-function... At 08:13 21.12.98 +0100, you wrote: >Dear members of the List, > >Could any of you help me in locating Prof. Lutze's e-mail address? > > >Thanking you in advance, > >Artur Karp > > >------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ------------- >Oszcz?dzaj na komunikacji - rozmawiaj przez Internet. >Twojemu rozm?wcy wystarczy telefon. www.netphone.pl >------------------------------------------------------- > > From partha at CAPITAL.NET Tue Dec 22 03:33:26 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 22:33:26 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- RSS and Vivekananda In-Reply-To: <01BE2D05.F5D95520.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043875.23782.15816977397533626802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About Swami Vivekananda: Hindu Student Council, VHP, BJP, and RSS leaders frequently quote Swami Vivekananda. But they rather misuse him - because they do not ever bring up his words that are not comfortable to them or suitable for their hate-doctrines. For example, Vivekananda said, "Our experience is such that if there is one religion that followed true socialism, that religion is Islam. Therefore, we strongly believe that Vedanta, without the help from Islam, is meaningless to mankind. We want to take humanity to a goal where there is no Vedas, no Bible, or no Koran. For our country, a combination of Islam and Hinduism is the only hope." (Collection of letters - translated from Bengali). Vivekananda said, "there will be a time when the Shudras will rise with their Shudra identity." He said, "this rising sun has already showed its light in the West. Socialism, and other such philosophies, in other words, the complete destruction of the state-sponsored status quo is indeed the pioneer of a future social revolution." [From, Bhupendranath Dutta (Swami Vivekananda's brother), Swami Vivekananda] Vivekananda's disciple Sister Nivedita was one of the foremost leaders of Indian armed revolutionaries. She, with help from Bhupendranath Dutta (a leading socialist activist-scholar), Barindranath Ghosh, and Aurobindo Ghosh first established socialist revolutionary groups in Bengal for armed struggles against the-then tyrant and colonial British government. The so-called Sangh Parivar never mentions these facts either. -Partha Banerjee ____________________________________________ >"Then and then alone you are Hindu when the distress of anyone bearing that >name comes to your heart and makes you feel as if your own son were in >distress." > >This was said by Swami Vivekananda in one of his lectures printed in the >book "Lectures from Colombo to Almora". Swami Vivekananda is considered an >ideal freedom fighter. In fact, there have been several bauddhiks >(spiritual discourses) wherein time and again it is emphasized Ramakrishna >Paramhamsa, Swami Vivekananda and Guru Aurobindo Ghosh have been >instrumental in the re-awakening of the spiritual theme of dharma that >flows through India. In fact the word Hindutva itself is defined as the >"defence of Dharma". This is no sham as might be pointed out later by some. >The RSS actually inculcates these values through its branches and camps. > >Ashish From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Dec 22 09:11:41 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 01:11:41 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043886.23782.16667072334657826778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashish Chandra wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote : > <<< > I believe the idea of a homeland in Tibet or Tian Shan arises from the > geographical location of Mt. Meru suggested in Indian astronomical and > Puranic texts. According to the astronomers, Meru lied on the same meridian > as Lanka, but far to the north. > >>> > > Correct me if I am wrong but the Vedic peoples' movement eastwards towards > the Ganga river is prior to the writing of the Purans. That would indicate > that the Vedic people moved from the Sarasvati region eastwards and came to > be known as Pauraniks. Would that still agree with the idea of a Tibetan > homeland ? > > That would depend on the route taken from the proposed homeland. Crossing the Himalayas is no easy task and it generally would be easier to go through certain passes. For example, study the nomadic intrusions into India. None came right over the Himalayas but around them and then down into Northwest India. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 22 13:37:13 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 05:37:13 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043897.23782.3327787382978822392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kamban is the earliest, fully extant Ramayana in Tamil. But some Ramayana incidents occuring in classical sangam texts are not found in Sanskrit versions. There is an earlier Jain Ramayana in akaval meter earlier than Kamban. We have only few poems. Of course, Alvars refer to Rama's story many times. While Bhagavatham is a direct offshoot of Alvar poetry on the life of Krishna, not much at all about Bhagavad Gita. I know only one instance in Alvar pAsurams that talks of Krishna advising Arjuna. Alvar is clear that this advice happended after the battle, not in the thicj of or before the battle. This is strange - given the importance of Gita in political discourses in India? How is Gita dated? What is the first occurence of its verses before Sankara? Indira Peterson in the Norton Anthology calls it was written by "anonymous brahmin writers". Is it a brilliant rebuttal to Buddhism? Is the date for bhagavad giita closer to UpaniSads or MahayAna sUtras? Regards, N. Ganesan Note: In the semiticization of Hinduism (missions got started from Vivekananda's sishyas. In the desperate search for an equivalent to Bible and Quran, Hindus found their answer in Gita. In the constructs of Indian nationalism, Gita plays a larger role in the last century or so. But TirukkuRaL of Tiruvalluvar is much more egalitarian and secular compared to Bhagavad Gita) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 22 11:33:36 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 06:33:36 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <367F624D.BD8194DF@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227043889.23782.1149950395547828777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Aryans, again?! What about reading a few history books before writing something like this: On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > That would depend on the route taken from the proposed homeland. > Crossing the Himalayas is no easy task and it generally would be easier > to go through certain passes. For example, study the nomadic intrusions > into India. None came right over the Himalayas but around them and then > down into Northwest India. The Sakas, came, in part, via the Baltistan crossing as did a few Turkish invaders into Kashmir (Haidar Dughlat i think) in the Middle ages, just before Babur... And there was the Chinese/Nepalese army coming to the plains after Harsha's death, early in the 7th c ., to help his successor... For Baltistan (and traders) read Jettmar in Studien zur Indologie & Iranistik a few years ago.... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Tue Dec 22 12:47:30 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 07:47:30 -0500 Subject: An interesting web page Message-ID: <161227043893.23782.11015533487027622025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.stanford.edu/class/wct3b1/sjaiswal/aryan.html From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Tue Dec 22 07:59:42 1998 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 07:59:42 +0000 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika Message-ID: <161227043915.23782.9269221589403521807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Madame Blavatsky -- the latter of whom >even >used >the swastika in her seal for the Theosophical Society This is pretty silly. The Nazis used both the cr oss and the svastika; that does not make either of them racist symbols. The svastika has been used as some kind of religious symbol rather widely in the Buddhist world and is of course a rather old auspicious (and religious?) symbol in South Asia. More generally, one should not confuse the ideas of the 1920s and 1939s with those of a half century earlier in an entirely different context. L.S.Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Dec 22 17:22:08 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 09:22:08 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227043908.23782.13787935995547134745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm not sure how Baltistan in Northern Pakistan is relevant. I only said that invaders into the Northwest (by which I meant horse-bound nomadic invaders) do not cross directly over the Himalayas but through passes. Not that you can't trek through the Himalayas, it's just impossible terrain for horses and wagons. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Michael Witzel wrote: > > The Aryans, again?! > > What about reading a few history books before writing something like > this: > > On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > > That would depend on the route taken from the proposed homeland. > > Crossing the Himalayas is no easy task and it generally would be easier > > to go through certain passes. For example, study the nomadic intrusions > > into India. None came right over the Himalayas but around them and then > > down into Northwest India. > > The Sakas, came, in part, via the Baltistan crossing as did a few Turkish > invaders into Kashmir (Haidar Dughlat i think) in the Middle ages, just > before Babur... > > And there was the Chinese/Nepalese army coming to the > plains after Harsha's death, early in the 7th c ., to help his > successor... > > For Baltistan (and traders) read Jettmar in Studien zur Indologie & > Iranistik a few years ago.... > > =========================================================================== > Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Dec 22 15:42:49 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 09:42:49 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043900.23782.9595961673123792950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant wrote: > >I wonder if he is referring to William Jones, who held this view. Muller >simply held "somewhere in Asia." Before a 'European homeland' was >promoted by Gordon Latham around 1860, most scholars held that the >'homeland' was in the Pamir/Bactria area. > Could you please give the reference details about any other pre-1860 books/papers. Thanks. Subrahmanya *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ? From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Tue Dec 22 15:19:07 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 10:19:07 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043898.23782.16798544347612671917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi schollars namaskara! We believe (and according to our scriptures too), GOD created human kind. Does it mean we contradict Darwin theory of evolution of mankind? Does any of our scriptures suggest similar to the theory of Darwin? thanks krishna From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Dec 22 15:42:36 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 10:42:36 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- RSS and Vivekananda Message-ID: <161227043902.23782.9863468606535562587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banerjee wrote : <<< About Swami Vivekananda: Hindu Student Council, VHP, BJP, and RSS leaders frequently quote Swami Vivekananda. But they rather misuse him - because they do not ever bring up his words that are not comfortable to them or suitable for their hate-doctrines. For example, Vivekananda said, "Our experience is such that if there is one religion that followed true socialism, that religion is Islam. Therefore, we strongly believe that Vedanta, without the help from Islam, is meaningless to mankind. We want to take humanity to a goal where there is no Vedas, no Bible, or no Koran. For our country, a combination of Islam and Hinduism is the only hope." (Collection of letters - translated from Bengali). Vivekananda said, "there will be a time when the Shudras will rise with their Shudra identity." He said, "this rising sun has already showed its light in the West. Socialism, and other such philosophies, in other words, the complete destruction of the state-sponsored status quo is indeed the pioneer of a future social revolution." [From, Bhupendranath Dutta (Swami Vivekananda's brother), Swami Vivekananda] Vivekananda's disciple Sister Nivedita was one of the foremost leaders of Indian armed revolutionaries. She, with help from Bhupendranath Dutta (a leading socialist activist-scholar), Barindranath Ghosh, and Aurobindo Ghosh first established socialist revolutionary groups in Bengal for armed struggles against the-then tyrant and colonial British government. The so-called Sangh Parivar never mentions these facts either. >>> Let us not get led away here by what Swami Vivekananda said. In one of his lectures, he has criticized the Theosophists and Christian Missionaries who were opposed to him throughout his American tour. One other occasions, he has said that there are religions (with direct reference to Islam) where if you try and help them with talking to them about the concept of God, they will try and kill you. I think the one thing he has reiterated over and over again is that the need of the hour is for our knowledgeable men to take the gem of Vedanta and present it to our masses. He (Swamiji) was of the firm belief that just as the theme of capitalism is what drove America, similarly the theme of Dharma ran through the veins of India. He has said this on several occasions. As goes the Shudras rising to their Shudra identity, I think you have misrepresented what the Swami said. He said that when you present the beauty of Vedanta to even a fisherman, who is a Shudra, he will realize and say that he is also God and that will help him be a better fisherman and so forth. He is not talking of a Shudra revolt here mind you. Merely the essence of the theme gaining ground that we are all the same, One with Brahma. As goes the relationship between Socialist concepts as they are and the use of Guru Aurobindo Ghosh, I am reminded of something I had read that Guruji has said. He said that if there is one thing Indians have ignored, it is materialism, the gathering of wealth. Of course, what one would do with it is different in his eyes from what wealth is generally used for. The Sangha encourages the reading of our national heroes like Swami Vivekananda. I am indeed surprised that Swami Vivekananda, if he was socialistically inclined, was not prescribed as a must-read in Indian schools where socialism is a favored ideology over capitalism. He was, and I can say this with all the confidence, a foremost proponent of the primacy of Vedanta over all else. At one occasion, he is said to have remarked, "I am the proudest Hindu that was ever born". This remark can be misconstrued but it reflects the Swami's belief in the Vedanta philosophy. What the Sangha does not encourage is selective quotations as being the true embodiments of the entire message, something you and I are both guilty of, at the moment. I am not sure about the remark Swami made about Vedanta being meaningless without Islam. Could you provide more info. I have access to all the Swami's writings through the Vedanta Society of New York. I would like to read that letter. Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Dec 22 15:59:08 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 10:59:08 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043912.23782.8716920929787328862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote : <<< Note: In the semiticization of Hinduism (missions got started from Vivekananda's sishyas. In the desperate search for an equivalent to Bible and Quran, Hindus found their answer in Gita. In the constructs of Indian nationalism, Gita plays a larger role in the last century or so. But TirukkuRaL of Tiruvalluvar is much more egalitarian and secular compared to Bhagavad Gita) >>> In Adi Sankaracharya's Bhaja Govindam, there is a verse that says the following : For him, who has studied the Bhagavadgita even a little, who has drunk a drop of the Ganga water, and who has performed the worship of the Destroyer of the demon Mura (viz. Shri Krishna) at least once, there is no tiff with Yama (the Lord of Death). The primacy to Bhagvadgita is old, probably predating Sankaracharya himself. Similarly we know the popularity of Sri Krishna and the Ganga river. Not to say that the primacy was accorded to these after Sri Sankara wrote the Bhaja Govindam. He was merely expounding the known facts about society . Ashish From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 22 19:06:40 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 11:06:40 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043919.23782.7763315794165933809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The primacy to Bhagvadgita is old, probably predating Sankaracharya himself. Similarly we know the popularity of Sri Krishna and the Ganga river. Not to say that the primacy was accorded to these after Sri Sankara wrote the Bhaja Govindam. He was merely expounding the known facts about society . Ashish >>> I have listened to M. S. Subbulakshmi herself singing Bhajagovindam few times in person. Rajaji's exposition is beautiful. Want to know how far back Gita quotes go before Sankara? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 22 19:08:44 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 11:08:44 -0800 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227043921.23782.6071776608938260426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Parpola's e-mail: asko.parpola at helsinki.fi Holiday greetings, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 22 16:20:28 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 11:20:28 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- RSS and Vivekananda In-Reply-To: <01BE2D97.CA7F3B00.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043904.23782.4084658468868390682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This thread on RSS and counter-RSS has little to do with Indology as perceived in this forum. Any scholarship and debate emanating from such groups are necessarily biased. If any one has studied the Hindu non-vedic literature (Srimad Bhagavatam and other puranas) some further light on migration and geography might evolve. Thank you for your non-indulgence.. Bijoy Misra On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Partha Banerjee wrote : > <<< > About Swami Vivekananda: > > Hindu Student Council, VHP, BJP, and RSS leaders frequently quote Swami > Vivekananda. But they rather misuse him - because they do not ever bring up > his words that are not comfortable to them or suitable for their > hate-doctrines. For example, Vivekananda said, > > "Our experience is such that if there is one religion that followed true > socialism, that religion is Islam. Therefore, we strongly believe that > Vedanta, without the help from Islam, is meaningless to mankind. We want to > take humanity to a goal where there is no Vedas, no Bible, or no Koran. For > our country, a combination of Islam and Hinduism is the only hope." > (Collection of letters - translated from Bengali). > > Vivekananda said, "there will be a time when the Shudras will rise with > their Shudra identity." He said, "this rising sun has already showed its > light in the West. Socialism, and other such philosophies, in other words, > the complete destruction of the state-sponsored status quo is indeed the > pioneer of a future social revolution." [From, Bhupendranath Dutta (Swami > Vivekananda's brother), Swami Vivekananda] > > Vivekananda's disciple Sister Nivedita was one of the foremost leaders of > Indian armed revolutionaries. She, with help from Bhupendranath Dutta (a > leading socialist activist-scholar), Barindranath Ghosh, and Aurobindo > Ghosh first established socialist revolutionary groups in Bengal for armed > struggles against the-then tyrant and colonial British government. > > The so-called Sangh Parivar never mentions these facts either. > >>> > > > Let us not get led away here by what Swami Vivekananda said. In one of his > lectures, he has criticized the Theosophists and Christian Missionaries who > were opposed to him throughout his American tour. One other occasions, he > has said that there are religions (with direct reference to Islam) where if > you try and help them with talking to them about the concept of God, they > will try and kill you. I think the one thing he has reiterated over and > over again is that the need of the hour is for our knowledgeable men to > take the gem of Vedanta and present it to our masses. He (Swamiji) was of > the firm belief that just as the theme of capitalism is what drove America, > similarly the theme of Dharma ran through the veins of India. He has said > this on several occasions. > > As goes the Shudras rising to their Shudra identity, I think you have > misrepresented what the Swami said. He said that when you present the > beauty of Vedanta to even a fisherman, who is a Shudra, he will realize and > say that he is also God and that will help him be a better fisherman and so > forth. He is not talking of a Shudra revolt here mind you. Merely the > essence of the theme gaining ground that we are all the same, One with > Brahma. > > As goes the relationship between Socialist concepts as they are and the use > of Guru Aurobindo Ghosh, I am reminded of something I had read that Guruji > has said. He said that if there is one thing Indians have ignored, it is > materialism, the gathering of wealth. Of course, what one would do with it > is different in his eyes from what wealth is generally used for. > > The Sangha encourages the reading of our national heroes like Swami > Vivekananda. I am indeed surprised that Swami Vivekananda, if he was > socialistically inclined, was not prescribed as a must-read in Indian > schools where socialism is a favored ideology over capitalism. He was, and > I can say this with all the confidence, a foremost proponent of the primacy > of Vedanta over all else. At one occasion, he is said to have remarked, "I > am the proudest Hindu that was ever born". This remark can be misconstrued > but it reflects the Swami's belief in the Vedanta philosophy. What the > Sangha does not encourage is selective quotations as being the true > embodiments of the entire message, something you and I are both guilty of, > at the moment. > > I am not sure about the remark Swami made about Vedanta being meaningless > without Islam. Could you provide more info. I have access to all the > Swami's writings through the Vedanta Society of New York. I would like to > read that letter. > > Ashish > From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Tue Dec 22 16:30:07 1998 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 11:30:07 -0500 Subject: Vegetarianism Message-ID: <161227043906.23782.14570441158832349474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wonder if any member of this list is teaching a course on vegetarianism. I would like to get the course outlines and the textbook(s) used. Is there any study on this topic from the vedic perspectives? Alok Kumar Department of Physics State University of New York Oswego, NY 13126. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 22 19:35:38 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 11:35:38 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043927.23782.4340037439877451372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< No early religion or scripture suggest a theory of evolution similar to Darwin. As for God's actions, scripture does not contradict Darwin as long as it does not suggest a creative method or procedure that is different from the one suggested by Darwin. In principle, God may be behind evolution. But strictly speaking, scientific models do not include God. They only deal with what can be studied systematically and explained in natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which can neither prove nor disprove his existence. >>> What about Dasavataarams of Vishnu? Does this concept have anything to with Darwin's theory? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Dec 22 08:56:18 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 11:56:18 +0300 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043957.23782.1118283629173749683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: >> It is of note that >> When Hanuman meets Ravana in his court, he talks to >> Ravana in vaTamozi (Northern language) whereas >> when Hanuman meets Seethai in the forest of Asoka trees >> he comforts her in chaste Tamil to tell the news >> that Rama will come soon to rescue her. And on 22 Dec Samar Abbas commented on this: > Hanuman is thought by some to have been originally a Dravidian monkey-god >who was later incorporated into the Aryan pantheon. So it is only natural >to expect him to have originally spoken Tamil. Older Dravidian versions >of the Ramayana are more likely to have preserved this feature. >Sanskritization came later, and there is no contradiction. The situation from Kamban's RAmAyaNa, described by N.Ganesan, does not give any ground for such generalization. Hanuman speaks with Seethai in the forest of Asoka trees just because SHE IS A WOMAN, and the antaHpura is not a place to speak Sanskrit! In the Mbh there is a story of Indra's attempt to seduce RucI, wife of a RSi. To prevent it, the RSi's pupil Vipula leaves his own body and keeps guard inside the body of RucI. When Indra gallantly addresses the beauty, Vipula answers him in her voice. Indra is greatly astonished to hear correct Sanskrit speech from a woman (even the wife of a great Brahmin sage)! He immediately understands that some other person speaks through her mouth. Best regards, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Dec 22 09:02:16 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:02:16 +0300 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043959.23782.179846223192190041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction: Hanuman speaks with Seethai in the Asoka grove IN TAMIL, because SHE IS A WOMAN... Sorry for this misprint Ya.V. From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Tue Dec 22 17:02:55 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:02:55 -0500 Subject: Some more websites Message-ID: <161227043910.23782.16730343362458948235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To find Tirukural and other tamil literary works and traslations on the web http://www.cs.utk.edu/~siddhart/ To find info, news on India www.freeindia.org Sujatha From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Tue Dec 22 17:06:54 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:06:54 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan In-Reply-To: <19981221220110.18277.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043878.23782.4369894595012362582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > It is of note that > When Hanuman meets Ravana in his court, he talks to > Ravana in vaTamozi (Northern language) whereas > when Hanuman meets Seethai in the forest of Asoka trees > he comforts her in chaste Tamil to tell the news > that Rama will come soon to rescue her. Hanuman is thought by some to have been originally a Dravidian monkey-god who was later incorporated into the Aryan pantheon. So it is only natural to expect him to have originally spoken Tamil. Older Dravidian versions of the Ramayana are more likely to have preserved this feature. Sanskritization came later, and there is no contradiction. > 2) E. V. R. Naicker saying that Ramayana is a story > describing how Dravidian leader, well versed in > music and a devotee of "Siva, was cunningly > defeated by Northern Aryans. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 22 20:07:42 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:07:42 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043935.23782.13714654479510244155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< What do you accept as the date of Sankara's birth Dr. Ganesan ? >>>> I have not spent enough time to read all relevant publications on Sankara's date. I have heard/read it as 9th century AD. There is an inscription in Cambodia mentioning a Sankara. Usually, Sri KamakoTi Sankaracharya (Maha PeriyavAL who recently pased away) tells about this inscription. Dr. R. Nagaswamy has written that this Khmer rule inscription refers to a different Sankara. C. Sivaramamurti has published a sculpture from a kanchipuram temple wall, a Saint with an ekadaNDam claiming it to be that of Sankara. Others have expressed doubts. There are usually differences of opinion between Sringeri & Kanchi maths on many things. TiruvAcakam, by MaaNikkavAcakar (9th century?) clearly refers to advaita in a disparaging manner. He must have lived close to Sankara's time. U. V. SwaminAtaiyar and Maraimalai aDigaL date MaaNikkavAcakar in 4th century AD. I have to read on Sankara's time more. Any references? Very interested in the references on issues of dating of the Bhagavad Giithaa too. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Tue Dec 22 17:28:46 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:28:46 -0500 Subject: Dravidian and Atlantis In-Reply-To: <001b01be2b75$e80bad80$57c3a7d1@win98> Message-ID: <161227043880.23782.9472991526775562147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Atlantis website you have given sets forth what at first sight are highly unconventional linguistic theories. Basically, it seeks to establish a connection between the Guanches and Dravidians. This is however, not so far-fetched because: - A Mediterranean element is established for some Dravidian langauges and the Indus Valley in particular [ cf. N.Lahovery, `Dravidian Origins and the West' ]. So the connection may have been due to the common Mediterranean influence that stretched from the Maghrib through Mesopotamia into the Indus. Alost half of the Indus Valley consisted of Mediterraneans. - A strong affinity between Dravidian and Bantu, Sudanic, Chadic and Manding African languages has also been established [ cf. Lahovery, op cit., Mlle. Homburger's works, Clyde A. Winters' papers, and K. Aravanan's works ]. The common features thus may be due to the African influence on Guanche from across the Sahara. More than half of the Indus Valley consisted of peoples with Negroid or Australoid affinities. At the present state of linguistic knowledge, it is not possible to state whether the influence was African or Mediterranean, but only that it was due to either of the two (or both). Even if the features occur in Mediterranean, they may have been adopted from an African substratum. Much more work needs to be done. Needless to say, the Atlantis theory does not derive any support from these connections. I think the creators of the website are confusing Atlantis with the Lemuria theory, which says that the `bedrock Dravidians' (ie. non-Mediterranean Dravidians who did not come from Mesopotamia) came from Lemuria, a lost continent in the Indian Ocean that formed a bridge to Africa, and is thought to be the home of the Indo-African peoples. This idea is perhaps less speculative than Atlantis. Samar On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Stephen wrote: > I would like the opinion of the esteemed members of this list on the > following page which talks of a linguistic connection between Dravidian and > the lost continent of Atlantis. > > http://www.atlan.org/articles/dravida/index.html > > Sujatha > From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Tue Dec 22 17:47:25 1998 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:47:25 -0500 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227043914.23782.11381531484456408455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me whether and where Asko Parpola has published his "From istar to Durga: Sketch of a Prehistory of India's Feline-riding and Buffalo-slaying Goddess of Victory," which I have from him only in a draft? I would also like to know Dr. Parpola's email address if possible. Thanks, Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 22 20:55:14 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:55:14 -0800 Subject: Vidya Dehejia's e-mail Message-ID: <161227043937.23782.13888069111191840013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have Dr. Vidya Dehejia's e-mail. I have her address at Arthur Sackler foundation, The Smithsonian. Also, Dr. Joanna G. Williams address & e-mail. Have a great holiday. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Dec 22 13:59:47 1998 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:59:47 -0100 Subject: Manikyala Message-ID: <161227043891.23782.16008421217866339041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some months ago there was a questions about the Manikyala stupa. In the mean time I have found two of my slides showing the interior chamber of the stupa (for the exterior views I am still searching...). For those interested here is the WWW-Site: http://www.thewalt.de/manik1.html and http://www.thewalt.de/manik2.html . But beware: the JPGs are rather voluminous: 104 and 230 KB respectively (thats why I do not send them as attachments to all of the list). I hope I can make some more photographs available soon. VTh --------------------------------- LaserSatz Thewalt Dr. Volker Thewalt fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de http://www.w3pro.de http://www.uebersatz.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Tue Dec 22 18:32:25 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 13:32:25 -0500 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227043917.23782.392437513437466009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe his email add is Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi Sujatha From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Tue Dec 22 12:49:32 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 13:49:32 +0100 Subject: Academic scrutiny of Vivekananda In-Reply-To: <367E2A30.22882712@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043895.23782.15496848907697773781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following book review may be of interest to some nettors ..... ------------------ http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/981222/13/13220175.htm 'Academic scrutiny' of Vivekananda Date: 22-12-1998 :: Pg: 28 :: Col: d SWAMI VIVEKANANDA AND THE MODERNISATION OF HINDUISM: William Radice - Editor; Oxford University Press, 219, `Oxford House', Anna Salai, Chennai (Madras)-600006. Rs. 475. The book under review is a collection of 14 papers written for a lecture and workshop held at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London, on November 26 and 27, 1993, to mark the centenary of Swami Vivekananda's electrifying address at the World Parliament of Religions. ----------------------- Regards, --Sreenivas From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Dec 22 19:14:36 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 14:14:36 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043923.23782.12038962158503031361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N.Ganesan wrote: I have listened to M. S. Subbulakshmi herself singing Bhajagovindam few times in person. Rajaji's exposition is beautiful. Want to know how far back Gita quotes go before Sankara? Thanks, N. Ganesan ___________ Sure. I would like to know. Also, please mention the scriptures. Thanks Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Dec 22 19:18:38 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 14:18:38 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043933.23782.1548962193294371949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I also forgot to add in the last email about how "far back the Gita quotes go before Sankara", the following question : What do you accept as the date of Sankara's birth Dr. Ganesan ? Thanks Ashish From partha at CAPITAL.NET Tue Dec 22 19:33:24 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 14:33:24 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- RSS and Vivekananda In-Reply-To: <01BE2D97.CA7F3B00.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043929.23782.7208753170856000250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am not sure about the remark Swami made about Vedanta being meaningless >without Islam. Could you provide more info. I have access to all the >Swami's writings through the Vedanta Society of New York. I would like to >read that letter. > >Ashish _________ I thought I already said it was in his collection of letters. It is published in Bengali by the Ramakrishna Vedanta Society of Calcutta. This particular letter was written by Vivekananda to one Mr. Sarfraz Hossain. As far as Vivekananda's socialist leanings, I would ask you to read Bhupendranath Dutta's and Sister Nivedita's writings on SV. They are the two closest people SV had. Both Bhupendranath and Nivedita wrote in English. As far as RSS' interpretation of SV (and other distortions of Indian history and religions), the less we talk, the better. -Partha From partha at CAPITAL.NET Tue Dec 22 19:41:15 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 14:41:15 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- RSS and Vivekananda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043931.23782.10824092890612132860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to know from Mr. Misra why he thinks this thread is non-Indologic. Of course, namecalling or racist remarks are not to be encouraged. But discussions on one of the most important issues of India today (i.e., the politics of Hindutva and the rise of fascism) - how can they be irrelevant to Indology? Why censor this discussion just because it has political connotations? -Partha ______ >This thread on RSS and counter-RSS has little to do with Indology as >perceived in this forum. Any scholarship and debate emanating >from such groups are necessarily biased. ... >Thank you for your non-indulgence.. > >Bijoy Misra From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Tue Dec 22 20:58:47 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 15:58:47 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043938.23782.10160898353058032596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Given the unanswered questions that evolution leaves in its path, it sounds more like philosophy than science to me. If one can believe in evolution, one should find it much easier to believe in creation. Sujatha From partha at CAPITAL.NET Tue Dec 22 23:13:37 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 18:13:37 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <000601be2df0$7686cfa0$daaec28e@win98> Message-ID: <161227043940.23782.12862840060454983092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Given the unanswered questions that evolution leaves in its path, it sounds >more like philosophy than science to me. If one can believe in evolution, >one should find it much easier to believe in creation. > >Sujatha __________ The theories of evolution have much fewer questions unanswered than the "theories" of creation do. And unlike creationists, evolutionists do not pretend that they have all the answers. The creationist theory on the other hand is only a myth, but pro-creation philosophers (mostly status quo politicians and the religious right) clothe it in a quasi-scientific garb. "Creationists for the most part are fundamentalist Christians (make it fundamentalists - PB) whose central premise is a literal interpretation of the Bible (make it Puranas or the Quran - PB) and a belief in its inerrancy. In adopting a literal interpretation of the Bible, they differ from nearly all other Christians and Jews (make it other Hindus or Muslims - PB). Scientists, many of whom are religious, have no wish to deny fundamentalists their own beliefs, but the creationists are determined to impose their views on others. In particular, they are lobbying to have science classes teach the ideas of: a sudden creation from nothing by God; a worldwide flood; a young Earth; and the separate ancestry of humans and apes.[...] And because they depend on supernatural intervention, not natural law, they are also unscientific. There is no scientific evidence, or even an appeal from common sense or experience, to suport the creatinists' claims." [From Tim M. Berra, Evolutoin and the Myth of Creationism. Stanford University Press, 1990] Creationists also take advantage of the reluctance of the scientific community to get into raucous political fights. That's how Christian Council has become so powerful in USA, a country that has thousands of extremely intelligent scientists. The same logic could be applied to the situation in India or say, Pakistan or Iran. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 22 17:48:12 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 18:48:12 +0100 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043925.23782.7516873932181725274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna Konduru wrote: We believe (and according to our scriptures too), GOD created human kind. Does it mean we contradict Darwin theory of evolution of mankind? Does any of our scriptures suggest similar to the theory of Darwin? [Lars Martin Fosse] No early religion or scripture suggest a theory of evolution similar to Darwin. As for God's actions, scripture does not contradict Darwin as long as it does not suggest a creative method or procedure that is different from the one suggested by Darwin. In principle, God may be behind evolution. But strictly speaking, scientific models do not include God. They only deal with what can be studied systematically and explained in natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which can neither prove nor disprove his existence. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 22 19:35:36 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 20:35:36 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043961.23782.3166433525098054199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< No early religion or scripture suggest a theory of evolution similar to Darwin. As for God's actions, scripture does not contradict Darwin as long as it does not suggest a creative method or procedure that is different from the one suggested by Darwin. In principle, God may be behind evolution. But strictly speaking, scientific models do not include God. They only deal with what can be studied systematically and explained in natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which can neither prove nor disprove his existence. >>> [Lars Martin Fosse] N. Ganesan wrote: What about Dasavataarams of Vishnu? Does this concept have anything to with Darwin's theory? [Lars Martin Fosse] No, I don't think so. The avataras of V. represent something entirely different. Best regards, Lars Martin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com [Lars Martin Fosse] Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Wed Dec 23 05:28:21 1998 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 23:28:21 -0600 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- RSS and Vivekananda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043952.23782.1877380523207010815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I see why Mr. Banerjee would like to see this discussion continue. Cut out his one-point agenda, and he would have nothing left to say! One only has to peruse the Indology Archives and the Usenet to see what I mean. Mr. Banerjee, don't you think it is a little ironic that the very thing you hate (hindu organizations) have become the only thing you can discuss? I ask you again - why don't you do something useful for us Hindus, like build us a nice temple or something, rather than spreading hate about the organizations that do build us nice temples ? Ever heard of fair competition ? Offering a better product has been known to be an effective way of causing harm to your competitor, as opposed to grabbing a loudspeaker and forcing hate down the throat of everyone within earshot.. Oh, and Mr. Banerjee's brave attempts to start painting Swami Vivekananda in a crimson hue is providing some much needed comic relief on this list, atleast for me. There is atleast one website dedicated to proving that Swami Vivekanda was a Muslim in private. Mr. Banerjee might want to search for it to get more "quotes", perhaps. As long as no one is taking it seriously, I guess it is harmless for him to continue.. ~sumedh Partha Banerjee writes: > I would like to know from Mr. Misra why he thinks this thread is > non-Indologic. Of course, namecalling or racist remarks are not to be > encouraged. But discussions on one of the most important issues of India > today (i.e., the politics of Hindutva and the rise of fascism) - how can > they be irrelevant to Indology? > > Why censor this discussion just because it has political connotations? > > -Partha > ______ > > >This thread on RSS and counter-RSS has little to do with Indology as > >perceived in this forum. Any scholarship and debate emanating > >from such groups are necessarily biased. > > ... > > >Thank you for your non-indulgence.. > > > >Bijoy Misra From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 23 04:40:38 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 23:40:38 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981223074643.00866830@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043948.23782.7296975415416084167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Taittiriya Upanisad has a faithful rendition of cosmology including the evolution. Srimad Bhagavatam takes it somewhat further. I don't know the exact dates of these two compositions. Others may help. Bijoy Misra On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > No less person than J.B.S.Haldane has said that the > dazAvatArA of Hindus is very good guess of theory of evolution. > > regards, > > sarma. > > At 06:48 PM 12/22/98 +0100, you wrote: > >[Lars Martin Fosse] > >No early religion or scripture suggest a theory of evolution similar to > >Darwin. As for God's actions, scripture does not contradict Darwin as long > >as it does not suggest a creative method or procedure that is different > >from the one suggested by Darwin. In principle, God may be behind > >evolution. But strictly speaking, scientific models do not include God. > >They only deal with what can be studied systematically and explained in > >natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which can neither prove > >nor disprove his existence. > > > > > >Best regards, > > > >Lars Martin Fosse > > > > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > >0674 Oslo > >Norway > >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > >Email: lmfosse at online.no > > > > > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 23 04:46:39 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 23:46:39 -0500 Subject: Indian children born abroad -- RSS and Vivekananda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043950.23782.2915181622467719496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Partha Banerjee wrote: > I would like to know from Mr. Misra why he thinks this thread is > non-Indologic. Any topic on India could be Indology, provided one has substance to discuss. Simple experiences or opinions are pure waste.. Politics of hindutva etc could be interesting. I assume there are other forums for such topics. Of course, namecalling or racist remarks are not to be > encouraged. But discussions on one of the most important issues of India > today (i.e., the politics of Hindutva and the rise of fascism) - how can > they be irrelevant to Indology? > > Why censor this discussion just because it has political connotations? > > -Partha > ______ > > >This thread on RSS and counter-RSS has little to do with Indology as > >perceived in this forum. Any scholarship and debate emanating > >from such groups are necessarily biased. > > ... > > >Thank you for your non-indulgence.. > > > >Bijoy Misra > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 12:46:44 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 04:46:44 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043968.23782.4172242921242373924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. D. V. Sarma wrote: >No less person than J.B.S.Haldane has said that the >dazAvatArA of Hindus is very good guess of theory of evolution. Very interesting. Which book or article Haldane talks about the Vishnu dashaavataaram? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 12:48:23 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 04:48:23 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043970.23782.285409989422067192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhagavatham is around 10th century AD. <<< Taittiriya Upanisad has a faithful rendition of cosmology including the evolution. Srimad Bhagavatam takes it somewhat further. I don't know the exact dates of these two compositions. Others may help. >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 12:58:26 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 04:58:26 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043972.23782.8975397979213007276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< The situation from Kamban's RAmAyaNa, described by N.Ganesan, does not give any ground for such generalization. Hanuman speaks with Seethai in the forest of Asoka trees just because SHE IS A WOMAN, and the antaHpura is not a place to speak Sanskrit! In the Mbh there is a story of Indra's attempt to seduce RucI, wife of a RSi. To prevent it, the RSi's pupil Vipula leaves his own body and keeps guard inside the body of RucI. When Indra gallantly addresses the beauty, Vipula answers him in her voice. Indra is greatly astonished to hear correct Sanskrit speech from a woman (even the wife of a great Brahmin sage)! He immediately understands that some other person speaks through her mouth. >>> Thanks, Prof. Vassilkov. Tamil poets from the sangam classical era pay devotion to Tamil. Kamban, the greatest Tamil poet, just uses that idea. To relieve pain and comfort Seetha, Hanuman uses Tamil to soothe her. That's all. Devotion to Tamil continues. Old habits die hard. :-) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 13:08:28 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 05:08:28 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227043975.23782.4899397417329121694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the USENET news groups (cf. searches of www.dejanews.com), there are thousands of postings where Nazis used translations from Sanskrit (Vedas, Bhagavad Giithaa, etc.,) to take blood oaths, etc., Are there academic scrutiny of this Nazi usage of Sanskrit materials? Any references? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 13:33:59 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 05:33:59 -0800 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika Message-ID: <161227043977.23782.15456063639311367386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Japanese use it because of Swastika in Buddhism. The poor Swastika was invented and in use from the Indus Valley Civilization, (IVC). Most likely scenario: the dominant people of IVC were Dravidians. (cf. A. Parpola, Decipherment of the Indus script, Oxford uinv. press, 1994 and decades of work by I. Mahadevan) If true, the IVC people have nothing to do with the later appropriations and usage of their symbol, Swastika by Aryans either for good or bad. Regards, N. Ganesan <<<< No they can't. The problem is that most people don't know the origin of those signs and symbols. I always recall an history some twenty years ago. I played Judo in a sports center and the bathrooms were shared by all sports. One day there were people that practiced Shorinji Kempo, a Japanese Martial Art that uses a green swastika as their symbol. My country - Portugal - had just thrown away a fascist dictatorship a couple of years before. So, a man that practised another sport just starts shouting at the Shorinji practitionners because they were carrying a Nazi symbol. How could they have the nerve to do it? I remember all too well the surprised and confusion of the Sensei, and his innability to explain the mistake. >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 13:48:51 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 05:48:51 -0800 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika Message-ID: <161227043979.23782.533836008751374318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the book you are refering to is the French translation, 1989 (ISBN: 2867140692). The Czech translation is done in 1998 (Praha edition) It is being translated in Europe everywhere. English originals by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke: 1) The occult roots o Nazism: the Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935 1985, 294 p. 2) The occult roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan cults and their influenze on Nazi ideology. New York Univ. press, 1992, 292 p. 3) Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the Hindu Aryan myth and neo-Nazism. New York Univ. press, 1998, 269 p. I have not read any of these books. As a Dravidian, you can understand I am a little worried and will see the books some day. Holiday greetings, N. Ganesan Note: 1) Your e-mail has some unreadable attachment. To find how not to send to Indology, search Indology archives with the word, attachment. 2) All the quotes given on Blavatsky come from a 2-minute search on her in www.dejanews.com. In the future, I will read more more on her and her Madras connections. I come from there. <<< There is a book written, if I recall well, by an American historian of which I've read the French translation some years ago. In French it is called 'Les Racines Ocultistes du Nazisme'. One of the main points addressed by the author are the connections between Nazism and the Theosophical movement. >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Dec 23 02:46:43 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 07:46:43 +0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01BE2DE9.09BA8080.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227043943.23782.435207540695538547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No less person than J.B.S.Haldane has said that the dazAvatArA of Hindus is very good guess of theory of evolution. regards, sarma. At 06:48 PM 12/22/98 +0100, you wrote: >[Lars Martin Fosse] >No early religion or scripture suggest a theory of evolution similar to >Darwin. As for God's actions, scripture does not contradict Darwin as long >as it does not suggest a creative method or procedure that is different >from the one suggested by Darwin. In principle, God may be behind >evolution. But strictly speaking, scientific models do not include God. >They only deal with what can be studied systematically and explained in >natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which can neither prove >nor disprove his existence. > > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Dec 23 02:53:26 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 07:53:26 +0500 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227043945.23782.16897988873221800887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The spokes of Nazi swastika point in opposite direction to the swastika of Indians. I heard some people remark that this the reason why Hitler was defeated. Thank god Hitler reversed the direction! regards, sarma. At 07:59 AM 12/22/98 +0000, you wrote: >>Madame Blavatsky -- the latter of whom >>even >>used >>the swastika in her seal for the Theosophical Society > >This is pretty silly. The Nazis used both the cr oss and the svastika; that >does not make either of them racist symbols. The svastika has been used as >some kind of religious symbol rather widely in the Buddhist world and is of >course a rather old auspicious (and religious?) symbol in South Asia. > >More generally, one should not confuse the ideas of the 1920s and 1939s >with those of a half century earlier in an entirely different context. > >L.S.Cousins > >MANCHESTER, UK > >CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: >Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 16:21:24 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 08:21:24 -0800 Subject: Madame Blavatsky Message-ID: <161227043989.23782.3049329467957058965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some references: 1) Peter Washington, Madame Blavatsky's Baboon: A history of the mystics, mediums and misfits who brought Spiritualism to America. New York: Schocken books, 1995,470 p. 2) K. Paul Johnson, The Masters revealed: Madame Blavatsky and the Myth of the Great White Lodge. SUNY, 1994 3) George M. Kren, Race and spirituality: Arthur Dinter's theosophical antisemiticism. Holocaust and Genocide studies, 6, 3, 1991, p. 233-252 4) Edward Hower, A spiritual story of the psychic and the Colonel H. S. Olcott had expected to scoff at Madame Blavatsky ... Smithsonian, 26, 1995, p. 110-127 5) N. C. Ramanuja Charya T. Subba Row, "the Secret Doctrine" and Madame Blavatsky, Theosophical History, 2, 1987, p.96-103 (Query: What is the connexion of Thiruvalam Subba Rao to Madame? Did she learn Sanskrit? Who were her Sanskrit interpreters? ...) It is significant that many papers of Indigenous Aryan theorists are published now, See Kak's works in Adyar Library Bulletin. Any links to Theosophical Society? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM Wed Dec 23 14:05:12 1998 From: krisk at GENESIS.ML.COM (Krishna P Konduru) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 09:05:12 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043980.23782.10912605932433715046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all Sumarian civilization is considered to be the first Civilization dating back to 3000BC from the history books. But Geeta was dating back to 5561 BC [Ref. The scientific Dating of Mahabharata by Dr.PV.Vartak] which is contradicting the history books that Sumarian is the first civilization. can you through some more light on this? thanks krishna From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 23 14:09:39 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 09:09:39 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01BE2E61.31D683C0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227043982.23782.10784432326227055358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > [Lars Martin Fosse] > > N. Ganesan wrote: > What about Dasavataarams of Vishnu? Does this concept > have anything to with Darwin's theory? > > > [Lars Martin Fosse] > No, I don't think so. The avataras of V. represent something entirely different. > what do they represent? On the face of it they would appear to create a progressive evolution (rather incomplete since a flood has to take place to submerge the vedas). I will like to hear research on the topic. Bijoy Misra From sermasalmeida at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Wed Dec 23 09:53:16 1998 From: sermasalmeida at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Sergio Mascarenhas) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 09:53:16 +0000 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika Message-ID: <161227043965.23782.10916888260182610615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a book written, if I recall well, by an American historian of which I've read the French translation some years ago. In French it is called 'Les Racines Ocultistes du Nazisme'. One of the main points addressed by the author are the connections between Nazism and the Theosophical movement. One of the issues covered was how the Nazis used a false document, written in the 19th century and attributed to the 'Sages of Sion', as an instrument against Jews. I also recall a TV program a couple of years ago with interviews of members of an extreme-right movement in Russia after the fall of Comunism. One of the intervewed man mentioned that false document as proof of what contemporary Jews are attempting to do in Russia... So, the connection between 19th century occultist movements, Nazism, and today extreme right is not all that silly after all. Sergio Mascarenhas -----Original Message----- From: L.S.Cousins [SMTP:L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK] Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 8:00 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika >Madame Blavatsky -- the latter of whom >even >used >the swastika in her seal for the Theosophical Society This is pretty silly. The Nazis used both the cr oss and the svastika; that does not make either of them racist symbols. The svastika has been used as some kind of religious symbol rather widely in the Buddhist world and is of course a rather old auspicious (and religious?) symbol in South Asia. 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M`````````!X`1( (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````` @```>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``EX6% ` end From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 15:08:30 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 10:08:30 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227043985.23782.10546895593500756430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banerjee wrote : The theories of evolution have much fewer questions unanswered than the "theories" of creation do. And unlike creationists, evolutionists do not pretend that they have all the answers. The creationist theory on the other hand is only a myth, but pro-creation philosophers (mostly status quo politicians and the religious right) clothe it in a quasi-scientific garb. "Creationists for the most part are fundamentalist Christians (make it fundamentalists - PB) whose central premise is a literal interpretation of the Bible (make it Puranas or the Quran - PB) and a belief in its inerrancy. In adopting a literal interpretation of the Bible, they differ from nearly all other Christians and Jews (make it other Hindus or Muslims - PB). Scientists, many of whom are religious, have no wish to deny fundamentalists their own beliefs, but the creationists are determined to impose their views on others. In particular, they are lobbying to have science classes teach the ideas of: a sudden creation from nothing by God; a worldwide flood; a young Earth; and the separate ancestry of humans and apes.[...] And because they depend on supernatural intervention, not natural law, they are also unscientific. There is no scientific evidence, or even an appeal from common sense or experience, to suport the creatinists' claims." [From Tim M. Berra, Evolutoin and the Myth of Creationism. Stanford University Press, 1990] Creationists also take advantage of the reluctance of the scientific community to get into raucous political fights. That's how Christian Council has become so powerful in USA, a country that has thousands of extremely intelligent scientists. The same logic could be applied to the situation in India or say, Pakistan or Iran. ___ Dear Sri Banerjee, I suggest that you provide some proof in support of your statements that Hinduism supports the creation theory or the so-called Hindu right supports the creation theory. Hinduism (I mean all the religions in Hinduism) support the belief that there is no creation. There is a projection and then there is contraction (destruction) and this is a never ending process. I suggest you might want to read the Nasadiya Sukta of RgVeda. Alternately, you might read some works of Hindu philosophers (from any of the six Darshanas) and their ideas about the Jagat (universe). Swami Vivekananda is one. There are many. Without having any basis for saying whatever it is you have said, you demonstrate a desire to drag the Hindu right into anything that is controversial and, sometimes, abhorrent. Please try and be a little more focused in your criticism. I have read nearly all your postings and never have you desisted from criticizing the RSS and BJP whether or not they are related to the topic or not. I don't think the fact that you spent 15 years with the RSS holds much water in light of the theme of criticism that you have chosen to adopt. It does not automatically make you an authority on what RSS stands for and what it doesn't. Ashish From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 23 18:14:37 1998 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 10:14:37 -0800 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika Message-ID: <161227043997.23782.1277940124023503557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > The poor Swastika was invented and in use from > the Indus Valley Civilization, (IVC). It is not clear that the IVC people "invented" the swastika. They have certainly used it. It would appear that this symbol was already known to the Proto-Elamite cultures. Also, in the course of discussion of their art, at least one writer has speculated that this symbol is an abstraction of a kneeling adorant with outstretched hand(s). I do not have the reference off the top of my head but you can consult with profit Harappan Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective, ed. G. Possehl. Thanks and Warm Regards. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kusuma19 at IDT.NET Wed Dec 23 18:32:15 1998 From: kusuma19 at IDT.NET (Kusuma Cunningham) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 10:32:15 -0800 Subject: Happy Holidays !! Message-ID: <161227043987.23782.5540523363191783252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Krishna: How are you and how is work going? You seem to have started a fundamental debate on the list!! I have been quietly lurking and watching all the happenings. I hope all is well. Wish you a Joyous Holiday Season !!! regards, kusuma From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 18:41:58 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 10:41:58 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044001.23782.12266529299953344267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Giithaa could be as old as 100 BC. Or, even 200 AD, possibly even later. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sermasalmeida at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Wed Dec 23 11:12:00 1998 From: sermasalmeida at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Sergio Mascarenhas) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 11:12:00 +0000 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika Message-ID: <161227043967.23782.13148832429701746379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos: > Indians, Tibetans, Amerindians and others *cannot* be held > responsible for what other persons at much later times have > done with the same signs and symbols. No they can't. The problem is that most people don't know the origin of those signs and symbols. I always recall an history some twenty years ago. I played Judo in a sports center and the bathrooms were shared by all sports. One day there were people that practiced Shorinji Kempo, a Japanese Martial Art that uses a green swastika as their symbol. My country - Portugal - had just thrown away a fascist dictatorship a couple of years before. So, a man that practised another sport just starts shouting at the Shorinji practitionners because they were carrying a Nazi symbol. How could they have the nerve to do it? I remember all too well the surprised and confusion of the Sensei, and his innability to explain the mistake. > There was a question here recently about what constitutes > scientific methodology. A good start on the scientific path is: > *look at things the way they are*. Then you will discover that > in India svastikas can turn in either direction, hence also (and > in fact more often) in the 'Nazi' direction. Once more, the problem is that not everybody uses, or wishes to use, good scientific methodology (not even scientists do it in their dailly life). And science is not detashed, and cannot be detashed, from non scientific misconceptions. The best way to defend science, and to insure that we *look at things the way they are* is to acknowledge that there are people that don't do it, and to discuss this. It is not to act like if it didn't happen, just as you want to do: > Let us hope that all this amateuristic nonsense quickly moves > away from this list back to the USENET, where it apparently > belongs. The worst thing that can be done is to think that you can define a place for science, and a place for nonsense. That's the best way to ensure that nonsense keeps prevailing. Sergio begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@D+`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 at 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`E $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````0@`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````$EN9&]L;V=Y`%--5% `24Y$3TQ/1UE M3$E35%-%4E8N3$E6+D%#+E5+````'@`", $````%````4TU44 `````>``,P M`0```!P```!)3D1/3$]'64!,25-44T525BY,258N04,N54L``P`5# $````# M`/X/!@```!X``3 !````"P```"=);F1O;&]G>2<```(!"S !````(0```%-- M5% Z24Y$3TQ/1UE 3$E35%-%4E8N3$E6+D%#+E5+``````,``#D`````"P! M.@$````>`/9?`0````D```!);F1O;&]G>0`````"`?=?`0```$(````````` M at 2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!);F1O;&]G>0!33510`$E.1$],3T=90$Q) M4U1315)6+DQ)5BY!0RY52P````,`_5\!`````P#_7P`````"`?8/`0````0` M```````"24@!!( !`"8```!213H at 36%D86UE($)L879A='-K>2!A;F0@=&AE M('-W87-T:6MA`$(-`06 `P`.````S@<,`!<`"P`,`````P`2`0$@@ ,`#@`` M`,X'# `7``L``0`$``,`"P$!"8 !`"$```!&1D0R049!0S4T.4%$,C$Q03(U M.#0T-#4U,S4T,# P, `*!P$#D 8`! 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M*[$9D 3P;W\A(""!'J$=%BCQ&7,BD';_.20O at 4#R"' #H"CQ.> >\_\9D"MQ M1:(9X%W!+Z J\1]P_" H&V%?:3V0-0`F\3%1LRD@(&!N*2[2(F(G2 +^)V(X M) LRX&,A9.(9X")BKR8.'%%0T%[A>0;@9"4P_S at R&> >8 at 0`&\ FD23 at .#'_ M&>!8M%424P\5!@9F4I6'$C8FR2 M8R'?)H%IT@$``9!K861/9!PD_QR2(=>DC at P)I($`"K!;X%QY/]\4P5 4&!1\"9P*3!O<1F0 M]F0GXA$`#^:U4!!& A(%:'/2-T8X=C/U!@)R$PD'R0 M2J(B8E53\$5.1509X!Z0,4)OG4F MI&$2HEX"81(!`0N _V,Q+A)C(1Y2>!N3ZHB&):+]'K G M>N1VZD\1>4>(AU'P_W80!" F`&H0<$%$`20+!F']*.!O%O\8!A??#R0*H -@ M7R!@-0`D&IU$$?$`H* #`! 0``````,`$1 ``````P" $/____] ```": "" &``````# ````````1@`` M``!4A0```0````0````X+C ``P`G@ @@!@``````P ```````$8``````84` M```````+`#" "" &``````# ````````1@`````.A0````````,`,8 (( 8` M`````, ```````!&`````!&%`````````P`S@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M````&(4````````>`$* "" &``````# ````````1@`````VA0```0````$` M````````'@!#@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-X4```$````!```````` M`!X`1( (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````````>`#T` :`0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``(;*% ` end From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 19:14:27 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 11:14:27 -0800 Subject: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044006.23782.13492863609433728921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< Hinduism (I mean all the religions in Hinduism) support the belief that there is no creation. There is a projection and then there is contraction (destruction) and this is a never ending process. >>>> Some Hindu sects speak of Creation of Atman: For example, a Lokayata text in Tamil composed by Kavichakravarti JayamoNTaar around 1070 AD. The poet had the patronage under Kulottunga I (whose dad was an Eastern Chalukya of Vengi, AP). See GOML, Madras edition, 1994. Atman (uyir) is a feeling created by proper mix four bhUtams. a) Just like adding 1) aatti/taataki flowers, 2) jaggery 3) old rice fermented for a day or so 4) water. Heat the combo, you produce liquor. (This metaphor comes in Manimekalai too) or, b) Just like adding 1) betel leaves, 2) betel nuts 3) lime (chuNNam) 4) saliva. Chew the tAmbUlam, you produce red color. Not that Lokayata fellows have only four bhUtams, they do not accept ether as it does not have pratyaksha pramANam. This work known as kArAnai vizupparaiyan maDal for ages. maDal genre occuring in TolkAappiyam, sangam works describe a guy pining for love, riding a palmyrah horse drawn by friends, tatooed all over his body publically pronounces in the village of his love and that he will die if the girl refuses him. This Tamil concept of teenage boys' declaration, tamil grammars and TiruukuRaL saying that 'riding a maDal is only good for boys, banned for girls is inverted in the Bhakthi age. Thirumangai AlvAr wrote two maDals assuming the persona of a girl riding a palm maDal and declarating that she will die for Kannan (Krishna) and Narayanan. Seeing maDal with tinges of Lokayata, JayamkoNTaar reverts back to the old theme of maDal of the boys and uses maDal genre to explain Lokayata philosophy. This work is unmatched in its beauty. Only possible by a Kavichakravarti. All the 550 lines have the same second syllable, "ta" varga after a long first syllable (etukai/prAsam). Pretty soon, it will be available in English. Tattvopaplavasimha of Jayaraasi is a different kind of text. Too dry in my opinion compared to JayamkoNTaar's creation. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 16:49:33 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 11:49:33 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227043995.23782.1628434733038899050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N.Ganesan wrote : In the semiticization of Hinduism (missions got started from Vivekananda's sishyas. In the desperate search for an equivalent to Bible and Quran, Hindus found their answer in Gita. In the constructs of Indian nationalism, Gita plays a larger role in the last century or so. But TirukkuRaL of Tiruvalluvar is much more egalitarian and secular compared to Bhagavad Gita) ____ Couple of questions Dr. Ganesan, 1. What does the term "semiticization of Hinduism" mean and how have Vivekananda and Ramakrishna missions promoted it ? Could you provide instances ? 2. As far as I understood the term "In the desperate search for an equivalent to Bible and Quran, Hindus found their answer in Gita. In the constructs of Indian nationalism, Gita plays a larger role in the last century or so", what you are trying to say is that there was no one single Hindu text that was given utmost importance but several, and, that it is because Hindus wanted an equal for the Bible and Quran, they(Hindus) adopted the Gita as the most important of Hindu books. Is that your purport ? If yes, then I don't know if that has emerged from the need for having a "Holy Book" like the Christians and the Muslims. On what basis do you base this conclusion ? Also, as far as I know, the Bhagvatgita is a Smriti text and not a Shruti. Smriti is available to general society whereas the Shrutis were only to be heard by the Sannyasis. Out of the Smritis that were available to the general public (non-Sannyasis), the Bhagvatgita has been historically the prime Hindu scripture although it is a part of the Mahabharata written by Rshi Ved Vyas. I don't think I have any proof that BG was the most important text but that has been the historical view in Hindu society. It is another thing to say that the Christians have the Bible, the Muslims the Qoran and the Hindus the Bhagvat Gita. This is an incorrect interpretation to the importance Hindus accord to BG and this should not be construed as meaning that "semiticization" has been introduced. What are your thoughts on this ? Thanks Ashish From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 23 06:37:42 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 12:07:42 +0530 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika Message-ID: <161227043955.23782.14159963476311567917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > > The spokes of Nazi swastika point in opposite direction > to the swastika of Indians. I heard some people remark > that this the reason why Hitler was defeated. Thank god > Hitler reversed the direction! This is just a plain untruth. I don't know how it is possible that so many people can insist on believing something that is so easily disproven. When I disproved it once before an American anthropologist (not an Indian hindutvavadi; but he had other ideological reasons for believing the untruth), he had the impertinence to say that the photographs I showed must be wrong. And so, many cases of stupidity appear to be incurable. And all this is so utterly absurd, because, as L.S. Cousins wrote: > >This is pretty silly. The Nazis used both the cross and the svastika; that > >does not make either of them racist symbols. [...] > > > >More generally, one should not confuse the ideas of the 1920s and 1939s > >with those of a half century earlier in an entirely different context. Indians, Tibetans, Amerindians and others *cannot* be held responsible for what other persons at much later times have done with the same signs and symbols. There was a question here recently about what constitutes scientific methodology. A good start on the scientific path is: *look at things the way they are*. Then you will discover that in India svastikas can turn in either direction, hence also (and in fact more often) in the 'Nazi' direction. Let us hope that all this amateuristic nonsense quickly moves away from this list back to the USENET, where it apparently belongs. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at vsnl.com From umadevi at SFO.COM Wed Dec 23 20:15:22 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 12:15:22 -0800 Subject: Email Address Message-ID: <161227044012.23782.4769229769946070316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Holiday Greetings Indologists: I need Gerard Foekema's email address (he writes about Hoysala temples). Can anyone help ? Thanks in advance, Mary Storm From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 20:20:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 12:20:52 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044013.23782.1546329328112096945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 20th century Indian homes are filled with the pictures/handicrafts of Krishna and Arjuna on a chariot drawn by horses? How old is this art motif? Is it created aftr Giithaa's rise to the position of the Hindu equivalent of Bible and Koran? Or, does this have an earlier representation? How old is this in Indian art? For Krishna in the South, usually he is Baalakrishna with butter or Kaaliyamardana, etc., In Pahari or Rajput paintings, it is the lover, Krishna with Radha. In Gupta art, I don't recall any of Giithopadesham. Are there any old representations of Krishna preaching to Arjuna in Indian art? How old these go back? My recollection is it is very rare, not the position portrayed by Neohindus now. Is this correct? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 23 21:01:36 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 13:01:36 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044017.23782.4229830607686980860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone here in INDOLOGY check Aazhvaar paasurams on TiruvallikkENi PaarthasArathy temple please? Do the Alvars refer to Giithaa episodes? What are the lines referring to Giithaa or vaarthai? Does Arjuna's name come in TiruvallikkENi paacurams? Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 23 18:25:45 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 13:25:45 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01BE2E5C.31492A20.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227043999.23782.12623804469757396964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I again request both Mr. Chandra and Mr. Banerjee to refrain from RSS and counter-RSS exchanges. This discussion seems highly biased.. Let there be peace in the holidays! Bijoy Misra On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Partha Banerjee wrote : > > > The theories of evolution have much fewer questions unanswered than the > "theories" of creation do. And unlike creationists, evolutionists do not > pretend that they have all the answers. > The creationist theory on the other hand is only a myth, but pro-creation > philosophers (mostly status quo politicians and the religious right) clothe > it in a quasi-scientific garb. > "Creationists for the most part are fundamentalist Christians (make it > fundamentalists - PB) whose central premise is a literal interpretation of > the Bible (make it Puranas or the Quran - PB) and a belief in its > inerrancy. In adopting a literal interpretation of the Bible, they differ > from nearly all other Christians and Jews (make it other Hindus or Muslims > - PB). Scientists, many of whom are religious, have no wish to deny > fundamentalists their own beliefs, but the creationists are determined to > impose their views on others. In particular, they are lobbying to have > science classes teach the ideas of: a sudden creation from nothing by God; > a worldwide flood; a young Earth; and the separate ancestry of humans and > apes.[...] And because they depend on supernatural intervention, not > natural law, they are also unscientific. There is no scientific evidence, > or even an appeal from common sense or experience, to suport the > creatinists' claims." [From Tim M. Berra, Evolutoin and the Myth of > Creationism. Stanford University Press, 1990] > Creationists also take advantage of the reluctance of the scientific > community to get into raucous political fights. That's how Christian > Council has become so powerful in USA, a country that has thousands of > extremely intelligent scientists. The same logic could be applied to the > situation in India or say, Pakistan or Iran. > > ___ > > Dear Sri Banerjee, > > I suggest that you provide some proof in support of your statements that > Hinduism supports the creation theory or the so-called Hindu right supports > the creation theory. Hinduism (I mean all the religions in Hinduism) > support the belief that there is no creation. There is a projection and > then there is contraction (destruction) and this is a never ending process. > I suggest you might want to read the Nasadiya Sukta of RgVeda. Alternately, > you might read some works of Hindu philosophers (from any of the six > Darshanas) and their ideas about the Jagat (universe). Swami Vivekananda is > one. There are many. > > Without having any basis for saying whatever it is you have said, you > demonstrate a desire to drag the Hindu right into anything that is > controversial and, sometimes, abhorrent. Please try and be a little more > focused in your criticism. I have read nearly all your postings and never > have you desisted from criticizing the RSS and BJP whether or not they are > related to the topic or not. I don't think the fact that you spent 15 years > with the RSS holds much water in light of the theme of criticism that you > have chosen to adopt. It does not automatically make you an authority on > what RSS stands for and what it doesn't. > > Ashish > From rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU Wed Dec 23 19:26:39 1998 From: rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 13:26:39 -0600 Subject: Avadhi Ramayan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044133.23782.600682052619328765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: >> > What do we say about Ramayana then ? It has been popularized >> > in the North by Kavi Tulsidas who wrote in Avadhi (I think). >> > This is correct. And incidentally, TulasI's RAma-carita-mAnasa has >indeed been compared to the Bible, on numerous occasions, by various >authors. Baburam Saxena says that Baisvari, or KosalI, are other names >that have been used for the dialect of Avadhi which was spoken around >Lucknow and adjacent areas. For more on TulasI's RAmAyaNa, see Phil >Lutgendorf's _Life of a Text_. > > MT I'm very interested in this issue of the propogation of epic literature and motives into popular media and the re-entry of classical motives into epic literature. What is Lutgendorf's _Life of a Text_ about? Why should I look there to find out more about the TulsI? Robin Kornman Robin Kornman Fellow, National Endownment for the Humanities Associate, Joint Center for International Studies University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee 414-967-0311 fax 414-967-0064 rkornman at csd.uwm.edu From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 18:47:35 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 13:47:35 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044003.23782.12421893196740123204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Bhagvat Gita has been dated anywhere between 200 BC and 300 BC to unknown. There is no certain date, much like most of the Vedic literature. Ashish From partha at CAPITAL.NET Wed Dec 23 18:58:52 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 13:58:52 -0500 Subject: creation of the human kind (and why some are so unhappy :) In-Reply-To: <01BE2E5C.31492A20.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044004.23782.10385623692721845492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please see my response at the bottom. Thanks. -pb- ________ >Partha Banerjee wrote : > > >The theories of evolution have much fewer questions unanswered than the >"theories" of creation do. And unlike creationists, evolutionists do not >pretend that they have all the answers. >The creationist theory on the other hand is only a myth, but pro-creation >philosophers (mostly status quo politicians and the religious right) clothe >it in a quasi-scientific garb. >"Creationists for the most part are fundamentalist Christians (make it >fundamentalists - PB) whose central premise is a literal interpretation of >the Bible (make it Puranas or the Quran - PB) and a belief in its >inerrancy. In adopting a literal interpretation of the Bible, they differ >from nearly all other Christians and Jews (make it other Hindus or Muslims >- PB). Scientists, many of whom are religious, have no wish to deny >fundamentalists their own beliefs, but the creationists are determined to >impose their views on others. In particular, they are lobbying to have >science classes teach the ideas of: a sudden creation from nothing by God; >a worldwide flood; a young Earth; and the separate ancestry of humans and >apes.[...] And because they depend on supernatural intervention, not >natural law, they are also unscientific. There is no scientific evidence, >or even an appeal from common sense or experience, to suport the >creatinists' claims." [From Tim M. Berra, Evolutoin and the Myth of >Creationism. Stanford University Press, 1990] >Creationists also take advantage of the reluctance of the scientific >community to get into raucous political fights. That's how Christian >Council has become so powerful in USA, a country that has thousands of >extremely intelligent scientists. The same logic could be applied to the >situation in India or say, Pakistan or Iran. > >___ > >Dear Sri Banerjee, > >I suggest that you provide some proof in support of your statements that >Hinduism supports the creation theory or the so-called Hindu right supports >the creation theory. Hinduism (I mean all the religions in Hinduism) >support the belief that there is no creation. There is a projection and >then there is contraction (destruction) and this is a never ending process. >I suggest you might want to read the Nasadiya Sukta of RgVeda. Alternately, >you might read some works of Hindu philosophers (from any of the six >Darshanas) and their ideas about the Jagat (universe). Swami Vivekananda is >one. There are many. > >Without having any basis for saying whatever it is you have said, you >demonstrate a desire to drag the Hindu right into anything that is >controversial and, sometimes, abhorrent. Please try and be a little more >focused in your criticism. I have read nearly all your postings and never >have you desisted from criticizing the RSS and BJP whether or not they are >related to the topic or not. I don't think the fact that you spent 15 years >with the RSS holds much water in light of the theme of criticism that you >have chosen to adopt. It does not automatically make you an authority on >what RSS stands for and what it doesn't. > >Ashish _________ I would like to quote a line or two that was posted recently in Indology. "strictly speaking, scientific models do not include God. They only deal with what can be studied systematically and explained in natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which can neither prove nor disprove his existence." I agree with the above. I have no problems with those who believe in God as long as they don't want to impose their God on us. Having said that, it is no surprise that pro-RSS pro-VHP/BJP scholars are so disturbed by our exposure of their much-beloved "respected religious" groups. In my above post, I have said *nothing* directly against the RSS (in fact most of it covers Christian fundamentalists' views on evolution and creation), but I have tried to point out some analogy amongst the various rightist groups across religions. I am no Sanskrit scholar (and we don't have to be one in order to fight fascism and politics of religion), but I was trained as an evolution biologist and systematist. Manu, Parashar, the concepts of Kalpams or Kalpas, the concept of Dasavatars, the great flood, etc. are Hindu mythological stories that have allusion to the Hindu "theory" of creation (or can we say, a disjunct or discontinuous mode of birth of the human and other species). At least, they do not corroborate the theory of Darwinian evolution that is based on scientific evidence, origin of species, and natural selection. Of course, Hindu stories are not the same as, say, a Christian version of creation, however, we find analogous discourses. Creationists can also justify racial and other such inequalities via their theory of ununiform and/or disjunct modes of development of the human race. Here Hinduism is no different at all when we see notions such as Brahmins and "upper castes" to have been derived from the upper parts of God's body and the lowest parts giving birth to the shudras. Is this evolution? Not by any stretch of imagination. I am not really against the puranic or vedic stories when it comes to spiritualism. In fact, I like them a lot. But I have problems when they are imposed on us with a connotation of supremacism and as scientific evidence. Fundamentalist Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. are no exception to this rule. This is what I wanted to say in my above post where I quoted Tim Berra. My 15 years with RSS, etc. has nothing to do with our present discussion. -Partha From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 23 19:16:15 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 14:16:15 -0500 Subject: creation of the human kind (and why some are so unhappy :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044008.23782.341168391687703286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These simplistic theories are simply annoying. I would again request you to study literature hard before making up prolonged unsubstantial comments. Not knowing sanskrit is not an enough excuse to start writing arbitrary phrases.. Kindly give us respite.. Bijoy Misra On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Partha Banerjee wrote: > Please see my response at the bottom. Thanks. -pb- > > ________ > > > >Partha Banerjee wrote : > > > > > >The theories of evolution have much fewer questions unanswered than the > >"theories" of creation do. And unlike creationists, evolutionists do not > >pretend that they have all the answers. > >The creationist theory on the other hand is only a myth, but pro-creation > >philosophers (mostly status quo politicians and the religious right) clothe > >it in a quasi-scientific garb. > >"Creationists for the most part are fundamentalist Christians (make it > >fundamentalists - PB) whose central premise is a literal interpretation of > >the Bible (make it Puranas or the Quran - PB) and a belief in its > >inerrancy. In adopting a literal interpretation of the Bible, they differ > >from nearly all other Christians and Jews (make it other Hindus or Muslims > >- PB). Scientists, many of whom are religious, have no wish to deny > >fundamentalists their own beliefs, but the creationists are determined to > >impose their views on others. In particular, they are lobbying to have > >science classes teach the ideas of: a sudden creation from nothing by God; > >a worldwide flood; a young Earth; and the separate ancestry of humans and > >apes.[...] And because they depend on supernatural intervention, not > >natural law, they are also unscientific. There is no scientific evidence, > >or even an appeal from common sense or experience, to suport the > >creatinists' claims." [From Tim M. Berra, Evolutoin and the Myth of > >Creationism. Stanford University Press, 1990] > >Creationists also take advantage of the reluctance of the scientific > >community to get into raucous political fights. That's how Christian > >Council has become so powerful in USA, a country that has thousands of > >extremely intelligent scientists. The same logic could be applied to the > >situation in India or say, Pakistan or Iran. > > > >___ > > > >Dear Sri Banerjee, > > > >I suggest that you provide some proof in support of your statements that > >Hinduism supports the creation theory or the so-called Hindu right supports > >the creation theory. Hinduism (I mean all the religions in Hinduism) > >support the belief that there is no creation. There is a projection and > >then there is contraction (destruction) and this is a never ending process. > >I suggest you might want to read the Nasadiya Sukta of RgVeda. Alternately, > >you might read some works of Hindu philosophers (from any of the six > >Darshanas) and their ideas about the Jagat (universe). Swami Vivekananda is > >one. There are many. > > > >Without having any basis for saying whatever it is you have said, you > >demonstrate a desire to drag the Hindu right into anything that is > >controversial and, sometimes, abhorrent. Please try and be a little more > >focused in your criticism. I have read nearly all your postings and never > >have you desisted from criticizing the RSS and BJP whether or not they are > >related to the topic or not. I don't think the fact that you spent 15 years > >with the RSS holds much water in light of the theme of criticism that you > >have chosen to adopt. It does not automatically make you an authority on > >what RSS stands for and what it doesn't. > > > >Ashish > > _________ > > I would like to quote a line or two that was posted recently in Indology. > > "strictly speaking, scientific models do not include God. > They only deal with what can be studied systematically and explained in > natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which can neither > prove nor disprove his existence." > > I agree with the above. I have no problems with those who believe in God as > long as they don't want to impose their God on us. > > > > Having said that, it is no surprise that pro-RSS pro-VHP/BJP scholars are > so disturbed by our exposure of their much-beloved "respected religious" > groups. In my above post, I have said *nothing* directly against the RSS > (in fact most of it covers Christian fundamentalists' views on evolution > and creation), but I have tried to point out some analogy amongst the > various rightist groups across religions. > > I am no Sanskrit scholar (and we don't have to be one in order to fight > fascism and politics of religion), but I was trained as an evolution > biologist and systematist. Manu, Parashar, the concepts of Kalpams or > Kalpas, the concept of Dasavatars, the great flood, etc. are Hindu > mythological stories that have allusion to the Hindu "theory" of creation > (or can we say, a disjunct or discontinuous mode of birth of the human and > other species). At least, they do not corroborate the theory of Darwinian > evolution that is based on scientific evidence, origin of species, and > natural selection. > > Of course, Hindu stories are not the same as, say, a Christian version of > creation, however, we find analogous discourses. Creationists can also > justify racial and other such inequalities via their theory of ununiform > and/or disjunct modes of development of the human race. Here Hinduism is no > different at all when we see notions such as Brahmins and "upper castes" to > have been derived from the upper parts of God's body and the lowest parts > giving birth to the shudras. Is this evolution? Not by any stretch of > imagination. > > I am not really against the puranic or vedic stories when it comes to > spiritualism. In fact, I like them a lot. But I have problems when they are > imposed on us with a connotation of supremacism and as scientific evidence. > Fundamentalist Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. are no > exception to this rule. This is what I wanted to say in my above post where > I quoted Tim Berra. > > My 15 years with RSS, etc. has nothing to do with our present discussion. > > -Partha > From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 19:29:29 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 14:29:29 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044010.23782.3971824552026000172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N.Ganesan wrote : Some Hindu sects speak of Creation of Atman: For example, a Lokayata text in Tamil composed by Kavichakravarti JayamoNTaar around 1070 AD. The poet had the patronage under Kulottunga I (whose dad was an Eastern Chalukya of Vengi, AP). See GOML, Madras edition, 1994. ________ Dr. Ganesan, I had also mentioned that one should refer to the Shad-Darshanas(Six Astika philosophies). Lokayata belongs to the Nastika school of Indian philosophy and hence rejects the authority of the Vedas. The Lokayata Sutras of bRhaspati were known to have promoted crass materialism and hence the Lokayata/Carvaka school has died out in India. This is not to say that ideas of creation did not exist in India but just that they could not gain ground. I am not aware of any debates between Adi Sankaracharya and followers of Lokayata school. Any info anyone ? Regards Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 20:39:58 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 15:39:58 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044015.23782.1475214213964146883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N.Ganesan wrote : 20th century Indian homes are filled with the pictures/handicrafts of Krishna and Arjuna on a chariot drawn by horses? How old is this art motif? ________ Actually, this is not true. Most of the pictures of Bhagwan Krsna even today are as Nandlala(baby Krsna) or together with Radha (Radhekrishna). Simply art-motifs cannot be considered indicative of how popular a piece of literature is. What do we say about Ramayana then ? It has been popularized in the North by Kavi Tulsidas who wrote in Avadhi (I think). Why is the Ramayana not considered the most important book on par with the Bible and Koran even though it has been traditionally read for centuries now ? ________ NG: Is it created aftr Giithaa's rise to the position of the Hindu equivalent of Bible and Koran? Or, does this have an earlier representation? ______ I am not sure if this is true. BG is considered as the embodiment of all Vedanta and Sri Krsna is its teacher, as he himself says. I am not sure if the BG has "risen" to be the Hindu equivalent of Bible and Koran. I don't think I understand this question well. _____ NG: How old is this in Indian art? For Krishna in the South, usually he is Baalakrishna with butter or Kaaliyamardana, etc., In Pahari or Rajput paintings, it is the lover, Krishna with Radha. In Gupta art, I don't recall any of Giithopadesham. Are there any old representations of Krishna preaching to Arjuna in Indian art? How old these go back? ________ NG: My recollection is it is very rare, not the position portrayed by Neohindus now. Is this correct? ____ Who are these neoHindus ? Dr. Ganesan, could you please clarify the last part. Thanks Ashish From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Dec 23 10:56:21 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 15:56:21 +0500 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika In-Reply-To: <36808FB5.3AF5837B@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227043963.23782.16058835920293969967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:07 PM 12/23/98 +0530, Robert Zydenbos wrote: >And so, many cases of stupidity appear to be incurable. > >Let us hope that all this amateuristic nonsense quickly moves away from >this list back to the USENET, where it apparently belongs. > >-- > >Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >Mysore (India) >e-mail zydenbos at vsnl.com > > I want the list members to note this unprovoked uncivil language. Mr. Robert Zydenbos, I have posted what I know. You are at liberty to post what you know. In future please see that your words do not hurt others. You have no business to do that. Let us maintain some semblence of good manners on this list. regards, sarma. From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 21:21:05 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 16:21:05 -0500 Subject: Oops Message-ID: <161227044020.23782.8942525302082057283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As it so happens, I presumed Dr. Ganesan's inquiries regarding the popularity of Srimad Bhagvat Gita were directed at me. That last response was a slip on my part. I should have mailed him (Dr. Ganesan) directly and not posted here as his questions weren't specifically directed at me but at everyone in general. Sorry about that. Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 21:42:22 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 16:42:22 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044029.23782.1126074285092051758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna wrote : Sumarian civilization is considered to be the first Civilization dating back to 3000BC from the history books. But Geeta was dating back to 5561 BC [Ref. The scientific Dating of Mahabharata by Dr.PV.Vartak] which is contradicting the history books that Sumarian is the first civilization. can you through some more light on this? Anyone wants to respond to this ? This dating has been done using the position of the stars and planets as described in the Mahabharata of Rshi Ved Vyas. Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 23 21:52:48 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 16:52:48 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044031.23782.8916799689047568351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel: This is open for discussion. There are quite a few philosophers of science who think science does disprove the existence of God. Wasn't it Laplace who said 'I don't need this hypothesis'? And why do you think Nietzsche declared God dead? I know even theologians who think the belief in the existence of God is outdated. _____ Dear Erik, Which science has been able to prove the non-existence of God ? Which science has actually been able to define God ? Have you heard of Yajnavalkya Smriti ? Yajnavalkya in his dialogue with his wife Maitreyi describes Aatman(Brahma(God)) as Net Neti. (Not this, Not this). It(God) is an experience, not an object of perception that can be known. Ashish From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Wed Dec 23 22:17:49 1998 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 17:17:49 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044033.23782.16004921591471183271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Bannerjee > >The theories of evolution have much fewer questions unanswered than the >"theories" of creation do. And unlike creationists, evolutionists do not >pretend that they have all the answers. > >The creationist theory on the other hand is only a myth, but pro-creation >philosophers (mostly status quo politicians and the religious right) clothe >it in a quasi-scientific garb. This is not true. Creation as the cause of mankind's appearance on earth has been around a long time. If this has to be debunked I would need a much worthier opponent than evolution. >"Creationists for the most part are fundamentalist Christians (make it >fundamentalists - PB) whose central premise is a literal interpretation of >the Bible (make it Puranas or the Quran - PB) and a belief in its >inerrancy. In adopting a literal interpretation of the Bible, they differ >from nearly all other Christians and Jews (make it other Hindus or Muslims >- PB). Scientists, many of whom are religious, have no wish to deny >fundamentalists their own beliefs, but the creationists are determined to >impose their views on others. In particular, they are lobbying to have >science classes teach the ideas of: a sudden creation from nothing by God; >a worldwide flood; a young Earth; and the separate ancestry of humans and >apes.[...] And because they depend on supernatural intervention, not >natural law, they are also unscientific. I beg to disagree. I was born and brought up a Christian, but I have questioned my religion many times and have always found the answers. Believing in creation does not make me a fundamentalist. You would be surprised at the number of scientists that find the theory of evolution lacking in scientific evidence. I can give you quotes and books but am unable to do at this time so since I am enroute to India on vacation. If you want a list of renowned scientists that believe in creation, I can provide you with one on my return. There is no scientific evidence, >or even an appeal from common sense or experience, to suport the >creatinists' claims." [From Tim M. Berra, Evolutoin and the Myth of >Creationism. Stanford University Press, 1990]\ Evolution is just an effort by man to find an answer, but it is not *the* answer. If it is the answer, we should have no problem explaining the duck billed platypus or similar plants and animals. >Creationists also take advantage of the reluctance of the scientific >community to get into raucous political fights. That's how Christian >Council has become so powerful in USA, a country that has thousands of >extremely intelligent scientists. The same logic could be applied to the >situation in India or say, Pakistan or Iran. Once again not true, since there are many in the scientific community that find evolution scientifually and logically flawed. Sujatha From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Dec 23 16:15:41 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 21:15:41 +0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19981223124644.8964.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227043993.23782.17569037727338010979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If my memory is right, he said this when he was residing in India. There was a newspaper story about this. regards, sarma. At 04:46 AM 12/23/98 PST, you wrote: >Mr. D. V. Sarma wrote: >>No less person than J.B.S.Haldane has said that the >>dazAvatArA of Hindus is very good guess of theory of evolution. > > Very interesting. > > Which book or article Haldane talks about > the Vishnu dashaavataaram? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Dec 24 02:28:10 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 21:28:10 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044037.23782.6984017282439340545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-12-21 09:20:32 EST, ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: << On a related note, the theosophist Olcott, was still partial to an Indian Aryan homeland at the end of the 19th century (most Europeans had abandoned such an idea by the middle of the century). >> The marriage of Rukmini Devi, a Tamil brahmin lady who played a significant role in the field of bharatanatyam of 20th century, with Arundale of the Theosophical society was considered somewhat controversial. It would be interesting to find out if the Aryan theory (equating the Indians and Europeans as Aryans) was ever used by those defending the marriage against the orthodox opposing it. If they did, that may be an example of Indians using the concept of "Aryan", which Edwin is looking for. Regards S. Palaniappan From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Wed Dec 23 19:56:13 1998 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 21:56:13 +0200 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika In-Reply-To: <01BE2E65.151C3FA0@int.ifb.pt> Message-ID: <161227044022.23782.3194367472028311285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Sergio, maybe you read the 'Celestine promiss' lately? Op woensdag, 23-dec-98 schreef Sergio Mascarenhas: SM> The worst thing that can be done is to think that you can define a place SM> for science, and a place for nonsense. That's the best way to ensure that SM> nonsense keeps prevailing. Is this a scientific observation or a nonsensical or both? You puzzle me here. BTW I know perfect places for nonse: the pub around the corner and the church two blocks dwon the road. And a place for science would be the university, am I missing something? ;-) Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Wed Dec 23 20:01:36 1998 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 22:01:36 +0200 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the swastika In-Reply-To: <19981223133400.26970.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044024.23782.2527989641584649573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hallo N. Op woensdag, 23-dec-98 schreef N. Ganesan: NG> Japanese use it because of Swastika in Buddhism. NG> The poor Swastika was invented and in use from NG> the Indus Valley Civilization, (IVC). Most likely scenario: NG> the dominant people of IVC were Dravidians. NG> (cf. A. Parpola, Decipherment of the Indus script, Oxford NG> uinv. press, 1994 and decades of work by I. Mahadevan) NG> If true, the IVC people have nothing to do with the later NG> appropriations and usage of their symbol, Swastika by Aryans NG> either for good or bad. NG> Regards, NG> N. Ganesan NG> <<<< NG> No they can't. The problem is that most people don't know the origin of NG> those signs and symbols. I always recall an history some twenty years NG> ago. NG> I played Judo in a sports center and the bathrooms were shared by all NG> sports. One day there were people that practiced Shorinji Kempo, a NG> Japanese NG> Martial Art that uses a green swastika as their symbol. My country - NG> Portugal - had just thrown away a fascist dictatorship a couple of years NG> before. So, a man that practised another sport just starts shouting at NG> the NG> Shorinji practitionners because they were carrying a Nazi symbol. How NG> could NG> they have the nerve to do it? I remember all too well the surprised and NG> confusion of the Sensei, and his innability to explain the mistake. NG>>>>> In short: some symbols like the swas are like homonyms, a pity a lot of stupid people don't realise this. There are people who think that the evil (or good) is in the form and not in the combination meaning-context. Ever chased away a vampire with a cross? ;-) Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Wed Dec 23 20:14:16 1998 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 22:14:16 +0200 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01BE2DE9.09BA8080.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227044026.23782.7861916097029504931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Op dinsdag, 22-dec-98 schreef Lars Martin Fosse: But strictly speaking, scientific models do not LMF> include God. They only deal with what can be studied systematically and LMF> explained in natural terms. God is beyond the reach of science, which LMF> can neither prove nor disprove his existence. This is open for discussion. There are quite a few philosophers of science who think science does disprove the existence of God. Wasn't it Laplace who said 'I don't need this hypothesis'? And why do you think Nietzsche declared God dead? I know even theologians who think the belief in the existence of God is outdated. Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 24 12:22:36 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 04:22:36 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044050.23782.18279851369962418440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was a suggestion by Morarji Desai to appoint Rukmani Devi who married Arundale, the famed dancer, reviver of Bharatha Natyam to be appointed India's President. Arundale is a Theosophist, close to Annie Besant, Helena Blavatsky, .. S. Radhakrishnan, Professor of Philosophy at Oxford served as President of India earlier to Desai's recommendation on Rukmani Devi Arundale. Do these cultural celebrities as Presidents of India send a signal of cultural superiority in the world? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Dec 23 23:57:19 1998 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 04:57:19 +0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <19981223202053.6571.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044034.23782.18090991922421927220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Atleast from the time of Adizankara, gitA has been considered as one of the important texts of Hinduism. Adizanakara has written commentaries on 1)brahmasUtrAs 2)Principal upaniSads 3)bhagavadgItA These three are called "prasthAnatrayam" in Hinduism. The latter philosophers have more or less followes suit and written commentaries on the above. The respectability of a system of philosophy was measured by the ability of that school to interpret these triple texts in its favour. regards, sarma. At 12:20 PM 12/23/98 PST, you wrote: >20th century Indian homes are filled with the >pictures/handicrafts of Krishna and Arjuna on >a chariot drawn by horses? How old is this >art motif? > >Is it created aftr Giithaa's rise to the position >of the Hindu equivalent of Bible and Koran? >Or, does this have an earlier representation? >How old is this in Indian art? > >>Regards, >N. Ganesan > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 24 14:26:23 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 06:26:23 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044055.23782.4341643593519427260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< There was never a process of cleaning in the Indology in after Nazis times and therefore it is one reason for the unscholarity methode which is still dominating the after-Nazi German Indology. >>> Hope some scholars take up the task of the study of how Sanskrit played in the Nazi hands. Was surprised to find that the grand historian of religion, Mircea Eliade had some Nazi connections. German universities can institute some Dravidian studies endowments, Professorships to give the necessary correction to understand the complex interplay of Dravidian and Aryan cultures over the last 4 millennia. Overstudy of Sanskrit does not help. As an indirect result of the West's interest (they have their own reasons to study it), misrepresentations of Sanskrit abound in India. Other literatures, cultures, their study are languishing and are in dire need of support. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 24 14:28:10 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 06:28:10 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227044057.23782.17198331593116371430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote Avalokitezvara is the Hindu deity 'Siva in a Buddhist garb. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A. C. Soper writes 'Siva has a Buddhist alter ego Avalokitzevara. Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, Artibus Asiae publishers, 1959 p.59: "; not, I think, by abrupt transition to a rival cul, but because 'Siva had probably been accepted for the time being in the Cambodian Buddhist pantheon as a Bodhisattva, with attributes similar in many ways to those of his Buddhist *alter ego* Avalokitezvara." For many details, Soper's classic study is highly recommended. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 24 15:16:00 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 07:16:00 -0800 Subject: Where was Panini inspired? (Part II) Message-ID: <161227044061.23782.14921714661972632177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where does 'Siva or Avalokitesvara inspire? ******************************************** Hindus claim Panini was inspired by 'Siva. Buddhists say it is actually from Avalokitezvara. These competing claims originated in the Tamil India. I was checking VeeracOzhiyam, the 11th century Tamil grammar by a Buddhist author. This is only one of the two surviving buddhist tamil works,the rest were destroyed. Buddhamitran, the ViiracOziyam author, tells that "Avalokitezvra's fame has several 100,000 facets and this Tamil is that Avalokitezvara's Tamil". This is in addition to his declaration about Avalokitezvara teaching Tamil to Agastya in the foreword of the book. "pan2n2URaayiram vitattil poliyum pukaz avalOkitan2 meyttamiz" - the last poem in kiriyaapatap paTalam, viiracOziyam. This is an important new evidence that Buddhist grammarians fostered Tamil by the grace of Avalokitezvara. Manjusrimuulakalpa, 11th-12th centuries, awards a lower form of enlightenment, zrAvakabodhi to Panini. This could very well be a Southern text. (cf. Indology archives) Regards, N. Ganesan <<<< Inspired by Avalokitezvara: ------------------------------ Ayum kuNattu avalOkitan2 pakkal akattiyan2 kETTu Eyum puvan2ikku iyampiya taNTamiz IGku uraikka nIyum uLaiyO? en2il, 'karuTan2 cen2Ra nIL vicumpil Iyum paRakkum', itaRku en2 kolO collum! EntizaiyE. - puttamittiran2Ar, (11th century) This is from a 11th century grammar, ViiracOziyam. Its author is puttamittiran2 (Buddhamitra), the Chieftain of PonpaRRi naaDu. He says in the foreword (paayiram) of the book that AvalOkitiisvara taught Tamil to Agastya first. In such explicit terms, Avalokitezvara never inspires Panini in Sanskrit texts at all. "My dear girl, adorned with jewels! My attempt at explaining Tamil grammar which Agastya learnt from Avalokitesvara, is like a house fly trying to follow the Garuda's path in the big sky." Summary: --------- Tamil (its grammar), Agastya, Potiyil (Potalaka), 'Siva are intimately related in all possible combinations in post-classical Tamil literature all the time. 'Siva inspiring Panini within the Paninian tradition is told for the first time by Haradatta of Chola area. Around 10th century, manjusrimulakalpa, which may well be Southern, tells Avalokitezvara awarded 'srAvakabodhi enligtenment to Panini. Outside the Paninian tradition, Hsuan Tsang narrates Panini being inspired by 'Siva in 'Salatura. This story he might have heard during his years in the South. However Tsang might have narrated it during his travelogue writing on 'Salatura and its most famous son, Panini. In any case, there is no association of 'Siva and Panini before Hsuan Tsang. No Sanskrit text tells us that Avalokitezvara inspired Panini to write his grammar whereas in Tamil viiracOziyam tells us that Avalokitezvara taught Tamil grammar to Agastya. Lokesh Chandra,1979, ODDiyAna: a new interpretation says: "the acculturation of 'Siva into Buddhist tradition may have takenplace in South India and thence it was transmitted to Indonesia where 'Siva-Buddha syncretism was deeply entrenched." Given that 'Siva teaches Tamil grammar to Agastya is attested early in Tamil and that competing Buddhist and Hindu claims originate and evolve both in Southern Sanskrit and Tamil texts, then these ideas about Panini's inspirers travelled northward. With kind regards, N. Ganesan Acknowledgement: Inspiration for this writeup came from M. Deshpande, Who Inspired Panini? Reconstructing the Hindu and Buddhist Counter-Claims", Journal of the American Oriental Society, 117.3 (1997), pp. 444-465. --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 24 15:34:54 1998 From: mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Tandy) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 07:34:54 -0800 Subject: Avadhi Ramayan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044063.23782.6024300682433680517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > > What do we say about Ramayana then ? It has been popularized > > in the North by Kavi Tulsidas who wrote in Avadhi (I think). > This is correct. And incidentally, TulasI's RAma-carita-mAnasa has indeed been compared to the Bible, on numerous occasions, by various authors. Baburam Saxena says that Baisvari, or KosalI, are other names that have been used for the dialect of Avadhi which was spoken around Lucknow and adjacent areas. For more on TulasI's RAmAyaNa, see Phil Lutgendorf's _Life of a Text_. MT From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 24 16:16:55 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 08:16:55 -0800 Subject: Barabudur etymology Message-ID: <161227044065.23782.15454163882022160163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Barabudur etymology ********************* B. Forman, Borobudur, The Buddhist legend in stone, Prague, 1980 p. 11: "Indonesian sources suggest that the name Borobudur might be a composite of two words: the word 'Budur' as a place name, and the Sanskrit word 'vihara', meaning monastery, which later became 'byhara' and then 'bara'. If this were the case, the name Borobudur would simply mean 'monastery at Budur'.The name appears in the medieval Javan panegyric Nagarakertagama." p. 17: There is a picture of the Tamilnadu coast. Legend to explain: "The same enchanting picture since time immemorial: sunset on the coast of souhern India. It was from here that, about 20 centuries ago, the first Indian colonists set off. They took leave of the shores of their homeland and, led by the constellations, they set sail in a south-easterly direction to the remote islands of Indonesia. It was the beginning of a new chapter in the cultural history of India and Indonesia." Baaraabuduur = baara + buduur where 1) 'baaraa' < byhaara < vihaara 2) buduur = pudu (new in Tamil) + uur (village in Dravidian). So, baarabuduur would mean "vihaara of the new village". Comments, corrections on this suggestion are welcome. Vajrabodhi and his disciple, Amoghavajra are from the Potikai/Potalaka hills of the Malaya mountain range. They lived in the Muulavaasam monastery in the 7th century AD. Went to Anuraadhapuram, Sri Lanka and were important teachers in Abhayagiri vihaara. Their Mahayana teachings were considered heretic and later cleansed out from Ceylon. Vajrabodhi was living at Kanchi and at the request of Pallava King set sail off to China via Java. Want to read the biography of Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra, the founders of Tantric Buddhism in China and Indonesia. References are highly appreciated. It is of note that Borobudur is considered to represent a maNDala of esoteric Buddhism. In all the 1400 big sculptural panels, calmness and serenity prevails. No death, violence, sex is displayed at all. I am reminded of the grammatical rules of Tamil poetics to write love poems: no descriptions explicitly of death, violence, or sex should occur in akam/"interior landscape" poems. What a difference with today's TV, magazines, Cinema??!! Mostly they concentrate on opposite things of Borobudur reliefs or Tamil sangam love poetry. Happy holidays, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 24 16:42:52 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 08:42:52 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara, pANinian tradition and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227044067.23782.10482125447983212649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For an early, far away representation of a teacher of grammar (vyAkaraNam), see Barabudur (800 AD) representation of GaNDavyUha episode. Sudhana is seated next to the teacher. Megha is the name of Sudhana's teacher and he is seated in padmAsana under a bodhi tree. The representation is very beautiful and big. Apsaras are floating above them and dropping flowers and a garland on Sudhana.(Figure 88, B. Forman, Borobudur, 1980, Prague) Note that Sudhana meets the grammar teacher in the Tamil city, (dramiDa paTTaNam in GaNDavyUha) called Vajrapura. Vajrapura may refer to Kanchipuram. Since Kanchi is Mekhala and vajra is diamond. Barabudur is a Vajrayana MaNDala (cf. Lokesh Chandra). Vajrayana Buddhism was taught by Vajrabodhi in Indonesia. Vajrabodhi went to Java (and then China) from Malaya country in 7th century AD aided by the Kanchipuram King. Alternatively, Vajrapura, the DramiDapaTTaNam may refer to KaveripaTTaNam at the mouth of Kaveri river. Buddhadatta lived in KaveripaTTaNam wrote Pali texts, Vinayaviniccaya and AbidammAvatAram. References on Vajrabodhi and Buddhadatta from DramiDa country are appreciated. Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------------------- <<<< The following verses from tirumantiram, the oldest Tantric work in Tamil and perhaps one of the oldest Tantric works, are very interesting from the point of view of Zaivite-Buddhist syncretism. It should be noted that these verses occur in the "autobiographical" section. The verses are based on kazakam edition. [...] Here the first students taught by nanti (ziva) are four nantis (four students, i.e., can2kar, can2antan2ar, can2Atan2ar, canaRkumArar based on the commentary) civayOka mAmun2i, and pataJcali (pataJjali) and viyAkramar both who worshipped in the hall, and tirumUlar himself. The form of ziva referred to here is clearly dakSiNAmUrti who in earlier texts is associated not with pipal tree but banyan tree. This opens the possibility that while the sacredness of banyan (ziva), pipal (buddhist) and saraca indica (jain) trees may be pre-Vedic in origin, the motif of a teacher sitting under a tree may very well have been buddhist in origin but adopted by zaivites or at least the term ziva bodhi suggests that the replacement of banyan with pipal could be due to buddhist influence. Since the dakSiNAmUrti (ziva as a teacher) motif is a southern motif, I suggest that the story regarding pANini must have originated in south India and travelled to northwest. S. Palaniappan >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Dec 24 08:03:42 1998 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 09:03:42 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit primers in Hindi? Message-ID: <161227044041.23782.14289648130580072521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Christmas Eve is probably not a very good time to post a question, but I'll give it a shot: an Indian friend wishing to learn Sanskrit asked me about good primers and dictionaries, primarily in Hindi. Being Hindi-illiterate myself, I am wholly ignorant on this subject. Can anyone recommend any particular introductory texts and dictionaries for Hindi-speakers trying to learn Sanskrit on their own? Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 24 15:01:36 1998 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 10:01:36 -0500 Subject: Care with criticism (was: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands) In-Reply-To: <368240C0.883140EB@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227044059.23782.8341035230932575266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rolf Koch wrote: ... > Check for example only one publication of >ALSDORF very carefully and believe nothing, check the manuscripts and >compare it with the texts as given by ALSDORF: you will be surprised. I >have checked nearly all publications of ALSDORF, they may be ignored all >together: the Studies on the Uttarajjhayana, The Kumarapalapratibodha, >The Agadadatta-story, or, another wonderful example: The translation of >the Prakrit Kokasa-tale. Be again very carefully in the publications of >METTE etc.(pupil of ALSDORF, as BRUHN - as far as I know). ... I am sure I am far from the only member of this list who would prefer *very* detailed documentation of such charges. Moreover, I also feel (perhaps unreflectively and emotionally) that it is one thing to criticize a dead scholar such as Alsdorf -- or I should more carefully say, the scholarship of the dead; there is little damage one can do to Alsdorf's career or his happiness now, I think. It is quite another to criticize the living. The scholarship of no one is beyond critique, to be sure. But we owe it to the field and to each individual to undertake such criticism with the utmost care and humility. I have never met Drs Metter or Bruhn, but I would certainly hope we show a healthy respect for the validity of their work unless and until we can PROVE that it has flaws severe enough to warrent such criticism. Please Mr Koch, document your allegations. (As far as I am concerned, such allegations have nothing to do with Nazism; whether someone has such sentiments is a grave matter, but one which can be to some great extent disconnected from the issue of the reliability of his or her philology!) Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Dec 24 19:19:28 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 11:19:28 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044076.23782.13094900686277552457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > > There are very good reasons to doubt the existance of God. You seem to use the term "God" to apply to the Christian concept. > A few of them > are: > 1) there's no place for him in the universe Why would there need to be a "place for him." > 2) there's no trace of any divine activity That's a subjective judgement. Some people would say that the complexity of life is not coincidental and is evidence of creative activity. > 3) the world shows it's not the result of an intelligent creator, because > nature is a mess Again, a subjective and somewhat emotional judegement. > 4) The suffering in the world shows that there's no benevolent being who has > any influence Here you have the concept of the benevolent God. It is one thing to argue whether God is benevolent or not, another to argue whether God exists or not. > 5) the concept of God is logically impossible > Yet, how many famed works of logic actually argue for divine existence? I think we need to separate the idea of the Christian concept of "God" with the general idea of "God." In Hinduism, God cannot control the law of karma, yet God is still seen as all-powerful. Even in Abrahamic religions, you have the idea of a God *incapable* of doing evil. Yet, even here God is still seen as "all-powerful." Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From eceanshr at PROTOCOL.ECE.IISC.ERNET.IN Thu Dec 24 06:42:17 1998 From: eceanshr at PROTOCOL.ECE.IISC.ERNET.IN (Kulkarni Sunil Suresh (ME)) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 12:12:17 +0530 Subject: Kamban's Aryan In-Reply-To: <01BE2E6A.4F717800.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044039.23782.7800985611761455169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not a scolar of this subject but then I think we can have very good reference to The Marathi Version of the Gita, the 'Gyaneshwari ' ( exact translation in english means Goddes of Knowlege ) wrriten by 'Saint Gyaneshwar' at the edge of 18 around, 12 or 13 th centuary . This is taken as the most importent work in Marathi language and is considered to be a root cause of the evolved 'BhatiSaMparadaya' in Maharashtra. It seems that before this centuary also, atleat in Maharashtra, 'Gita' in form of 'Gyaneshwari' was given high importence. Sunil Suresh Kulkarni ME(Telecommunications) Dept. of Electrical Communication Engg. Indian Institute of Science. Bangalore-560012. On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > N.Ganesan wrote : > > In the semiticization of Hinduism (missions got started from Vivekananda's > sishyas. In the desperate search for an equivalent to Bible and Quran, > Hindus found their answer in Gita. In the constructs of Indian nationalism, > Gita plays a larger role in the last century or so. But TirukkuRaL of > Tiruvalluvar is much more egalitarian and secular compared to Bhagavad > Gita) > > ____ > From bvi at AFN.ORG Thu Dec 24 17:16:16 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 12:16:16 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044068.23782.5889569034083310431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:52 PM 12/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >Erik Hoogcarspel: > >This is open for discussion. There are quite a few philosophers of science >who think science does disprove the existence of God. Wasn't it Laplace who >said 'I don't need this hypothesis'? >And why do you think Nietzsche declared God dead? I know even theologians >who think the belief in the existence of God is outdated. >_____ > >Dear Erik, > >Which science has been able to prove the non-existence of God ? Which >science has actually been able to define God ? Have you heard of >Yajnavalkya Smriti ? Yajnavalkya in his dialogue with his wife Maitreyi >describes Aatman(Brahma(God)) as Net Neti. (Not this, Not this). It(God) is >an experience, not an object of perception that can be known. > >Ashish God is beyond the power of the our senses to perceive as quite rightly pointed out. However, in different scriptures and in different traditions, God promises to reveal Himself to those who qualify themselves in certain ways. One example is in Bhagavad-gita 18.55, where Lord Krishna states that He (God) can be known by devotion (bhaktya mam abhijanati). He also states that He reveals Himself to those who are always engaged (satata-yuktanam) in His devotional service with love (bhajatam priti purvakam) (Bg. 10.10-11). One could take such processes recommended in whatever scripture or tradition he has faith and apply them practically in his life. In this way, one may become a recipient of God's revelation. Then God would not be a theoretical principle anymore but a practical reality. In this way one could prove the reality of God for oneself. This methodology in itself may also be termed a science because he deals with a certain theory, practical activity, and results confirming the theory, as do other sciences. Best wishes, Chris Beetle From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Dec 24 17:21:55 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 12:21:55 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara, pANinian tradition and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227044070.23782.2728787880141284165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/24/98 10:43:37 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Alternatively, Vajrapura, the DramiDapaTTaNam may refer to > KaveripaTTaNam at the mouth of Kaveri river. Buddhadatta > lived in KaveripaTTaNam wrote Pali texts, Vinayaviniccaya > and AbidammAvatAram. This is probably the correct interpretation. In the Tamil tradition, paTTin2am referred to a coastal town. Also, vajra has an association with indra. KavirippUmpaTTin2am was said to have seven indra viharas as the following text shows. paNai aintu Ogkiya pAcilaip pOti aNi tikaz nIzal aRavOn2 tirumozi antara cArikaL aRaintan2ar cARRum intira vikAram Ez uTan2 pOki cil.10.11-14 Regards S. Palaniappan From barkhuis at SARASVATI.COM Thu Dec 24 11:23:12 1998 From: barkhuis at SARASVATI.COM (Roelf Barkhuis) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 12:23:12 +0100 Subject: SIGNOFF INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227044048.23782.12816322011736655262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SIGNOFF INDOLOGY -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1457 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Dec 24 17:26:00 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 12:26:00 -0500 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara, pANinian tradition and dakSiNAmurti Message-ID: <161227044072.23782.12911959841008856118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/24/98 11:23:06 AM Central Standard Time, Palaniappa at AOL.COM writes: > Also, vajra has an association with indra. > KavirippUmpaTTin2am was said to have seven indra viharas as the following > text > shows. I forgot to mention the tradition of indra festival here. Also the association of megha with indra. Regards S. Palaniappan From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 24 18:24:48 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 13:24:48 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044079.23782.6754644032333786405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To discuss God's existence on the eve of Christams should have some message on God's behalf. See below. On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Dear Ashish > > Op woensdag, 23-dec-98 schreef Ashish Chandra: > > AC> Which science has been able to prove the non-existence of God ? Which > AC> science has actually been able to define God ? Have you heard of > AC> Yajnavalkya Smriti ? Yajnavalkya in his dialogue with his wife Maitreyi > AC> describes Aatman(Brahma(God)) as Net Neti. (Not this, Not this). > It(God) > AC> is an experience, not an object of perception that can be known. > > you seem to be a victim of the theosofical fallacy, according to which God > is a name for "THE universal metaphysical being". I think this is a fallacy > mainly for two reasons. 1) THE universal metaphysical being doesn't exist, > because all metaphysics are stories and all are different. (there is no > universal music either). 2) in order to be a being you have to be spoken > and written about, that means that you have certain qualities and miss > others. If you are a person and not a thing you have a unique identity. God > is the central person of the chrsitian bible. This bible is his passport, > his identity. God is not Zeus, Wodan or Ziva, and certainly not the > unpersonal brahman from the unpaniZads, which resembles much more a kind of > natural substance like energy or electricity. > There are very good reasons to doubt the existance of God. A few of them > are: > 1) there's no place for him in the universe God is the cause of the universe. > 2) there's no trace of any divine activity All activities are divine. > 3) the world shows it's not the result of an intelligent creator, because > nature is a mess The apparent mess is only a perception. > 4) The suffering in the world shows that there's no benevolent being who has > any influence The sufferings are human frailties, stemming from ignorance. > 5) the concept of God is logically impossible > Logic is mathematically limited. How about that? Good to ponder on holidays.. - Bijoy Misra From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Thu Dec 24 18:43:14 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 13:43:14 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <01BE2E8A.7FCC1BC0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044042.23782.8345377375755216681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > What do we say about Ramayana then ? It has been popularized > in the North by Kavi Tulsidas who wrote in Avadhi (I think). Actually the Ramayana was written in Old Baiswari ( cf. Kellog's `Grammar of Hindi' ). Samar From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Thu Dec 24 19:04:55 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 14:04:55 -0500 Subject: Sumeria In-Reply-To: <3680F898.76CC@genesis.ml.com> Message-ID: <161227044044.23782.10338641761293681146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Krishna P Konduru wrote: > Sumarian civilization is considered to be the first Civilization > dating back to 3000BC from the history books. 'Civilization' means some material remains, cities, etc. > > But Geeta was dating back to 5561 BC [Ref. The scientific > Dating of Mahabharata by Dr.PV.Vartak] which is contradicting > the history books that Sumarian is the first civilization. > This is indeed evidence that the Indus Valley may have existed as far back as, perhaps not 5000 BC, but 3000-4000 BC. This is based on, as Ashish Chandra has correctly pointed out, on astronomic evidence, ie. certain observations are mentioned in that work which could only have been made in 5000 BC. - The same astronomical system you mention also contains other information, ie. WHERE those observations must have been made. The location is not U.P. ( Aryavarta ) but the Indus Valley. The conventional view is that these observations were made in the Indus Valley and then later adopted into Aryan texts. - That does not imply `a civilization'; songs by certain tribes in West Africa are said to contain astronimical evidence indicating that those songs were composed in 10000 BC. Only if material remains are found, and are dated to 5000 BC, will people say that civilization existed at that place and at that time. Oral tales are not sufficient. So till now, this view will be considered speculative, but it is an INIDICATION that perhaps, the Indus Valley `Civilization' existed. However, it is unlikely that it will be shown to be older than Sumerian since the civilization (mostly) came from Sumeria by direct colonization. Thus, Sumerian seals, Mediterranean skeletons and ziggurats have been found. The technology of brick-making also came from there. Some authorities (eg. Sir Mortimer Wheeler) have suggested that there was actual domination from Mesopotamia. Samar From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Thu Dec 24 19:17:43 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 14:17:43 -0500 Subject: Visnu & Evolution In-Reply-To: <01BE2E94.ACB604C0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044046.23782.14487471930533812207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does the concept of Visnu's incarnations have anything to do with > evolution ? Orthodox Aryan Vaishnavism holds that there an infinite number of incarnations of Vishnu, with 10 main incarnations. When I use incarnation, I will imply main incarnation below. The standard view of evolution is : Fish -> Amphibians -> Reptiles -> Bipedal Mammals -> Quadrupedal Mammals while the incarnations run : Fish -> Turtle -> Boar -> Man-Lion .... A. The first incarnation of Vishnu is a FISH (Matsya), the second a TURTLE (a Reptile). So Fish -> Reptile here again. [ ! ] B. The 2nd incarnation is a TURTLE, the 3rd incarnation of Vishnu is a Boar (Bipedal Mammal) So Reptile -> Bipedal Mammal [ !! ] C. The 4th incarnation is Man-Lion, and the later ones are human. So Bipedal Mammal -> Quadrupedal Mammal D. Proto-Homonids are shorter and more hairy than Humans. Man-Lion incarnation is the first `semi-human' incarnation, vaguley resembling Cro-Magnons or Neandertals, while later ones are human. [ !!! ] The transition from Reptile to Mammal is thought to have occurred in the Tertiary. [ !! ] Samar Abbas From roheko at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Dec 24 13:25:20 1998 From: roheko at T-ONLINE.DE (Rolf Koch) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 14:25:20 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044053.23782.7848442925383108531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At the Nazi times it were the German Indology which delivered all the material about blood etc to the Nazis. There was never a process of cleaning in the Indology in after Nazis times and therefore it is one reason for the unscholarity methode which is still dominating the after-Nazi German Indology. Check for example only one publication of ALSDORF very carefully and believe nothing, check the manuscripts and compare it with the texts as given by ALSDORF: you will be surprised. I have checked nearly all publications of ALSDORF, they may be ignored all together: the Studies on the Uttarajjhayana, The Kumarapalapratibodha, The Agadadatta-story, or, another wonderful example: The translation of the Prakrit Kokasa-tale. Be again very carefully in the publications of METTE etc.(pupil of ALSDORF, as BRUHN - as far as I know). The actual German Indology is not possible to understand without the Nazitime. The very low standard has to be explained with a very strong view on the Nazitime. N. Ganesan wrote: > In the USENET news groups (cf. searches of www.dejanews.com), > there are thousands of postings where Nazis used > translations from Sanskrit (Vedas, Bhagavad Giithaa, etc.,) > to take blood oaths, etc., > > Are there academic scrutiny of this Nazi usage of Sanskrit > materials? Any references? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Thu Dec 24 22:09:24 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 17:09:24 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044081.23782.14711920191191387165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra (BM) writes in response to Erik Hoogcarspel: ______ >On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: >> There are very good reasons to doubt the existance of God. A few of them >> are: >> 1) there's no place for him in the universe > >(BM) God is the cause of the universe. ____________ It's a spiritual concept, not scientific and objective. ____________ > >> 2) there's no trace of any divine activity > >(BM) All activities are divine. ____________ Emotion-laced subjective argument. Objectivity is, rapes, murders, wars, slavery, and poverty cannot be divine (if there is any supernatural divinity in the first place). They are all man-made. ____________ > >> 3) the world shows it's not the result of an intelligent creator, because >> nature is a mess. > >(BM) The apparent mess is only a perception. ____________ And a realistic perception indeed. ____________ > >> 4) The suffering in the world shows that there's no benevolent being who has >> any influence > >(BM) The sufferings are human frailties, stemming from ignorance. ____________ Another argument is that most sufferings are deliberately caused and sustained by the socially, economically, and religiously privileged. ____________ > >> 5) the concept of God is logically impossible >> > >(BM) Logic is mathematically limited. ____________ Mathematical reasoning can't "prove" the existence of God. Only spirituality and beliefs can. So, it's ironic that someone avidly using subjectivity is now trying to bring up objective reasoning such as mathematics. ____________ From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Dec 24 14:13:49 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 17:13:49 +0300 Subject: wrong address: sorry Message-ID: <161227044094.23782.18295653225860664300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all my correspondents whom I gave my second, hotmail address as yavass at hotmail.com - Sorry, it is WRONG! Please correct, the right address is vassilkov at hotmail.com I use it only on special occasions and so rare that I have managed to forget the login. Excuse me. All the best, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 24 12:08:32 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 17:38:32 +0530 Subject: Happy Holidays !! In-Reply-To: <3681372F.1B67@idt.net> Message-ID: <161227044086.23782.17565092585755374113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:32 AM 12/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Krishna: > >How are you and how is work going? >You seem to have started a fundamental >debate on the list!! I have been quietly >lurking and watching all the happenings. > >I hope all is well. Wish you a Joyous >Holiday Season !!! > >regards, >kusuma > Dec 24, 1998 To Kusuma Cunningham: Thank you for your response and good wishes. I reciprocate your good wishes heartily. I however fail to identify you exactly, although you seem to know me intimately. Kindly enlighten me and give me your private e-mail address. Best wishes. KSA From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 24 22:46:20 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 17:46:20 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044083.23782.12994220325010247486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't imagine how far you're off the point. Merry Christmas.. Bijoy Misra On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Partha Banerjee wrote: > Bijoy Misra (BM) writes in response to Erik Hoogcarspel: > ______ > > >On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > >> There are very good reasons to doubt the existance of God. A few of them > >> are: > >> 1) there's no place for him in the universe > > > >(BM) God is the cause of the universe. > ____________ > > It's a spiritual concept, not scientific and objective. > ____________ > > > >> 2) there's no trace of any divine activity > > > >(BM) All activities are divine. > > ____________ > > Emotion-laced subjective argument. Objectivity is, rapes, murders, wars, > slavery, and poverty cannot be divine (if there is any supernatural > divinity in the first place). They are all man-made. > ____________ > > > >> 3) the world shows it's not the result of an intelligent creator, because > >> nature is a mess. > > > >(BM) The apparent mess is only a perception. > ____________ > > And a realistic perception indeed. > ____________ > > > >> 4) The suffering in the world shows that there's no benevolent being who has > >> any influence > > > >(BM) The sufferings are human frailties, stemming from ignorance. > ____________ > > Another argument is that most sufferings are deliberately caused and > sustained by the socially, economically, and religiously privileged. > ____________ > > > >> 5) the concept of God is logically impossible > >> > > > >(BM) Logic is mathematically limited. > ____________ > > Mathematical reasoning can't "prove" the existence of God. Only > spirituality and beliefs can. So, it's ironic that someone avidly using > subjectivity is now trying to bring up objective reasoning such as > mathematics. > ____________ > From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 24 12:26:39 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 17:56:39 +0530 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <19981223202053.6571.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044088.23782.17449300985068357426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:20 PM 12/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >20th century Indian homes are filled with the >pictures/handicrafts of Krishna and Arjuna on >a chariot drawn by horses? How old is this >art motif? > >Is it created aftr Giithaa's rise to the position >of the Hindu equivalent of Bible and Koran? >Or, does this have an earlier representation? >How old is this in Indian art? > >For Krishna in the South, usually he is >Baalakrishna with butter or Kaaliyamardana, etc., >In Pahari or Rajput paintings, it is the >lover, Krishna with Radha. In Gupta art, >I don't recall any of Giithopadesham. > >Are there any old representations of Krishna >preaching to Arjuna in Indian art? How old these >go back? > >My recollection is it is very rare, not the >position portrayed by Neohindus now. Is this correct? > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Dec 24, 1998 Dear Member, A possible source of knowing how old such illustrations are is the illustrated manuscripts preserved in Indological institutes such as the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute of Pune. Dr Dominic Wujastic who is in charge of such a collection may be able to throw light on this topic. I have myself seen illustrated Mss of other works (e. g. the Bhaagavata Puraana), if not of the Giitaa, which are fairly old. I do not find anything neo-Hindu in the pictures you have referred to. KSA From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Thu Dec 24 16:45:00 1998 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 18:45:00 +0200 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01BE2E94.ACB604C0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044074.23782.12749771787808515356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ashish Op woensdag, 23-dec-98 schreef Ashish Chandra: AC> Which science has been able to prove the non-existence of God ? Which AC> science has actually been able to define God ? Have you heard of AC> Yajnavalkya Smriti ? Yajnavalkya in his dialogue with his wife Maitreyi AC> describes Aatman(Brahma(God)) as Net Neti. (Not this, Not this). It(God) AC> is an experience, not an object of perception that can be known. you seem to be a victim of the theosofical fallacy, according to which God is a name for "THE universal metaphysical being". I think this is a fallacy mainly for two reasons. 1) THE universal metaphysical being doesn't exist, because all metaphysics are stories and all are different. (there is no universal music either). 2) in order to be a being you have to be spoken and written about, that means that you have certain qualities and miss others. If you are a person and not a thing you have a unique identity. God is the central person of the chrsitian bible. This bible is his passport, his identity. God is not Zeus, Wodan or Ziva, and certainly not the unpersonal brahman from the unpaniZads, which resembles much more a kind of natural substance like energy or electricity. There are very good reasons to doubt the existance of God. A few of them are: 1) there's no place for him in the universe 2) there's no trace of any divine activity 3) the world shows it's not the result of an intelligent creator, because nature is a mess 4) The suffering in the world shows that there's no benevolent being who has any influence 5) the concept of God is logically impossible Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 25 03:19:39 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 19:19:39 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044090.23782.17855775758573665617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Dear Member, A possible source of knowing how old such illustrations are is the illustrated manuscripts preserved in Indological institutes such as the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute of Pune. Dr Dominic Wujastic who is in charge of such a collection may be able to throw light on this topic. I have myself seen illustrated Mss of other works (e. g. the Bhaagavata Puraana), if not of the Giitaa, which are fairly old. I do not find anything neo-Hindu in the pictures you have referred to. KSA >>> How old are the mss.? 13th century?? 16th century?? Any guesses? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Fri Dec 25 06:01:25 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 00:01:25 -0600 Subject: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044093.23782.3704230225573628631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banarjee said: - >Mathematical reasoning can't "prove" the existence of God. Only >spirituality and beliefs can. Do you know what mathematics is???? In fact, mathematics is every bit as much human as "spirituality" and it would seem to me much more so. Mathematics can only "prove" human models of nature and are rarely very accurate. For example, Bohr's theory changed the whole scientific description of nature, but it just barely approaches an accurate description of even the simplest atom, Hydrogen, and is far too complicated to describe anything else in nature. Yet most of our modern "understanding" of the microscopic world came out of this. If we look closely, we might find that "scientists" take just as many leaps of faith as those who accept the existence of God, may be a lot more!! In fact even the concept of "proof" is only human imagination. At least "spirituality" has some aspect of divinity to it, and would be a much more reasonable tool for use of describing the existence and nature of God. In fact it very often seems that experience of God is far easier and more practical than experience of certain mathematical proofs. I don't understand why you think your beliefs should over ride every one else's. Claude Setzer From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 25 14:56:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 06:56:20 -0800 Subject: Tiger skin on "Siva's waist Message-ID: <161227044098.23782.587280185455135433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, What are the occurences of Tiger skin/fur as a waist dress for 'Siva Mahadeva? Does Lord 'Siva wear this, according to Samskrit texts? What about Sri Rudram, Matsya, Kuurma and Skanda puraaNams? Any quotes are highly appreciated. Have a great 1999, the last year of the century. With warm regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From das at NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 25 19:03:07 1998 From: das at NETCOM.COM (Das Devaraj) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 11:03:07 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19981225174826.0090e9f8@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227044117.23782.4670564346805977030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >1) there's no place for him in the universe > Of course, if He is transcendental, He could go undetected. Of course, God could be a "She" - then everybody looking for a "He" will not find God! God could be even be "it" (oh, horrors). Looking at all the dares to prove the negative and other interesting(?) assertions made in this thread, reminded me of that all time science fiction favorite (sorry not indology related) Flatland by Edwin Abbot. This classic book is very small (less than 100 pages) and is in its 70+ printing(?). This book attempts to explain in the form of a story, what is "knowable" and what is "not knowable" to a thinking layperson. > If I randomly change the statements of a > computer program repeated in the course of time, what are the odds I'll get > a better, more ingenious program with additional useful features? If by "random" you imply haphazard or deliberately jumbled up with an aim to foul things up, then the answer is NO. Otherwise the answer is (surprisingly) YES! Just check "Genetic programming" or "Emergent Behavior." > >5) the concept of God is logically impossible Thought Brahman was God (with a capital G), at least as far as Hinduism was concerned. There are of course other gods (with small letter "g") like Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma etc. In Hinduism one can even have one's own personal god! Wonder whether people are getting god and God mixed up, when reading various scriptures. das From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Dec 25 10:23:47 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 11:23:47 +0100 Subject: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044160.23782.3965257829281636235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is very interesting. Could you give us some examples of how Alsdorf manipulates the texts? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Rolf Koch [SMTP:roheko at T-ONLINE.DE] Sendt: 24. desember 1998 14:25 Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Emne: Re: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands At the Nazi times it were the German Indology which delivered all the material about blood etc to the Nazis. There was never a process of cleaning in the Indology in after Nazis times and therefore it is one reason for the unscholarity methode which is still dominating the after-Nazi German Indology. Check for example only one publication of ALSDORF very carefully and believe nothing, check the manuscripts and compare it with the texts as given by ALSDORF: you will be surprised. I have checked nearly all publications of ALSDORF, they may be ignored all together: the Studies on the Uttarajjhayana, The Kumarapalapratibodha, The Agadadatta-story, or, another wonderful example: The translation of the Prakrit Kokasa-tale. Be again very carefully in the publications of METTE etc.(pupil of ALSDORF, as BRUHN - as far as I know). The actual German Indology is not possible to understand without the Nazitime. The very low standard has to be explained with a very strong view on the Nazitime. N. Ganesan wrote: > In the USENET news groups (cf. searches of www.dejanews.com), > there are thousands of postings where Nazis used > translations from Sanskrit (Vedas, Bhagavad Giithaa, etc.,) > to take blood oaths, etc., > > Are there academic scrutiny of this Nazi usage of Sanskrit > materials? Any references? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 25 20:41:38 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 12:41:38 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227044125.23782.6355235390412985322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Of course, many Hindus started accepting Gita when many western scholars started talking about it. >>> Anything 'phoren' appeals to us. eg., The lure foreign goods in India. I agree. When Western missionaries said something good on Giithaa, Indians might have expanded on the theme. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bvi at AFN.ORG Fri Dec 25 17:48:24 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 12:48:24 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044109.23782.3711801895080140420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:19 AM 12/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >In Hinduism, God cannot control the law >of karma, yet God is still seen as all-powerful. Just for the record, as far as I am aware, in the Hindu tradition, God is described as the controller of the law of karma. One reference for this is a quote from a translation of Brahma-samhita by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition: "I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, for all those who walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas" (Sri Brahma-samhita, verse 54). From bvi at AFN.ORG Fri Dec 25 17:48:26 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 12:48:26 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044112.23782.4707273525666478275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:45 PM 12/24/98 +0200, you wrote: >There are very good reasons to doubt the existance of God. Very good? Hmmm... >A few of them are: >1) there's no place for him in the universe Of course, if He is transcendental, He could go undetected. >2) there's no trace of any divine activity >3) the world shows it's not the result of an intelligent creator, because >nature is a mess If someone made a machine that could grow and reproduce, you would be amazed by his intelligence. Thus, logically, when we see the large array of various species of living forms with these amazing properties, we might conclude that a greater intelligence produced them. Certainly the conclusion that a few fortunate random events produced such works of genius is logically subject to doubt. If I randomly change the statements of a computer program repeated in the course of time, what are the odds I'll get a better, more ingenious program with additional useful features? Is it more likely in the case of the forms of the organisms which are far more complicated than computer programs? >4) The suffering in the world shows that there's no benevolent being who has >any influence One might ask "Is the suffering the prisoner undergoes in prison proof that the government is not benevolent?" Of course, God recommends we leave this world of suffering, and He teaches how. He also teaches how to become transcendental to the suffering conditions, while while we are here, and He advises that we not harm His other creatures. The disobedient, rascal sons of a responsible father sometimes make a mess of things until he punishes and corrects them but that is their fault not his. Were God to force us to behave then He would violate the freedom of choice He gave us and make us mere automatons. Then the experience of love of God would be impossible. If I force you to love me at gun point, how can that be real love and how can that be real life? >5) the concept of God is logically impossible Logical arguments stem from initial premises or assumptions and perhaps the ones you choose appear to rule God out, but they are not the only possible or rational ones. Just some Christmas thoughts... Best wishes, Chris Beetle From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 25 20:50:59 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 12:50:59 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044127.23782.6585889046828392279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Vaishnava bhakti tradition of the power of God to cancel karma is similar the Mahayana doctrine where bodhisattvas cancel the karma of those suffering in different types of hell (cf. Har dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine in Buddhist sanskrit lit.) The ability of God's control increases after Bhakti assumes prominence. Regards, N. Ganesan >In Hinduism, God cannot control the law >of karma, yet God is still seen as all-powerful. Just for the record, as far as I am aware, in the Hindu tradition, God is described as the controller of the law of karma. One reference for this is a quote from a translation of Brahma-samhita by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition: "I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, for all those who walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas" (Sri Brahma-samhita, verse 54). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 25 18:35:44 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 13:35:44 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19981225174824.0091c7b8@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227044114.23782.2544199972677966528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 25 Dec 1998, Chris Beetle wrote: > At 11:19 AM 12/24/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >In Hinduism, God cannot control the law > >of karma, yet God is still seen as all-powerful. > > Just for the record, as far as I am aware, in the Hindu tradition, God is > described as the controller of the law of karma. One reference for this is > a quote from a translation of Brahma-samhita by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati > Thakura of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition: > This is narrow and to label it against Hinduism is not appropriate. The rest makes sense.. Good Christmas discussion.. - BM > "I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive > activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for > each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, for all those who > walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously > performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name > indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas" (Sri Brahma-samhita, > verse 54). > From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Dec 25 11:20:40 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 14:20:40 +0300 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227044153.23782.1997820652746795965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dec. 24 =?ISO wrote: >>Gita itself is a very insignificant chapter >>in a vast fictional epic of Mahabharat. Hinduism as it occurs in Vedas is neither >>monotheistic nor messianic. >>Of course, many Hindus started accepting Gita when many western >>scholars started talking about it. Well, and what about great VedAntic thinkers Zankara and RAmAnuja, who considered the GItA to be the central, most important piece in the MahAbhArata and the quintessence of divine wisdom? Yaroslav Vassilkov From cbmuseu at ATT.NET Fri Dec 25 23:58:06 1998 From: cbmuseu at ATT.NET (Catherine Benkaim) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 15:58:06 -0800 Subject: Vidya Dehejia's e-mail Message-ID: <161227044135.23782.1466670339135857546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidya Dehejia is: dehejvi at asia.se.edu. As far as I know Joanna does not have an e mail but her address is History of Art, 405 Doe Library, Univ. of Calif, Berkeley 94720, fax: 510/643-2185. Hope this helps "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Does anyone have Dr. Vidya Dehejia's e-mail. > I have her address at Arthur Sackler foundation, The Smithsonian. > > Also, Dr. Joanna G. Williams address & e-mail. > > Have a great holiday. > > Regards > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 26 00:18:39 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 16:18:39 -0800 Subject: Vidya Dehejia's e-mail Message-ID: <161227044138.23782.503301355734352015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much. Happy holidays, N. Ganesan <<< Vidya Dehejia is: dehejvi at asia.se.edu. As far as I know Joanna does not have an e mail but her address is History of Art, 405 Doe Library, Univ. of Calif, Berkeley 94720, fax: 510/643-2185. Hope this helps >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri Dec 25 15:12:23 1998 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 17:12:23 +0200 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <368293BF.AA16540A@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227044102.23782.11632609648422729227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for kicking in the allready wide open door of the theodicee. I'm sure that no one can be convinced of the nonexistence of God if he or she doesn't want to. The human mind is cunning enough allways to find a back door when faced with a logically consistent and valid argument. So let's not pursue a pointless discussion. I would however like to defend the athe?st or nonthe?st position as a valid one against this front of new age or old age misty mythical and mystical believers who take their own prejudice for granted. My second point is that the remark that 'God's nonexistence cannot be proved', which started the discussion, should be replaced with the observation that this list is not the right place for a discussion about the existence of God. This is because of the duplex ordo, the seperation of worldly and religious matters. This is a list for scientific discussion and science belongs to the world of cause and effect, it is the same for a hindu(tva), muslim or athe?st. The arguments in favour of God's existence which I have seen would also fail the minimal criteria for decent philology, hermeneutics, logic or semiotics. Op donderdag, 24-dec-98 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala: PKM> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: PKM>> PKM>> PKM>> There are very good reasons to doubt the existance of God. PKM> You seem to use the term "God" to apply to the Christian concept. PKM>> A few of them PKM>> are: PKM>> 1) there's no place for him in the universe PKM> Why would there need to be a "place for him." PKM>> 2) there's no trace of any divine activity PKM> That's a subjective judgement. Some people would say that the PKM> complexity of life is not coincidental and is evidence of creative PKM> activity. PKM>> 3) the world shows it's not the result of an intelligent creator, PKM>> because nature is a mess PKM> Again, a subjective and somewhat emotional judegement. PKM>> 4) The suffering in the world shows that there's no benevolent being PKM>> who has any influence PKM> Here you have the concept of the benevolent God. It is one thing to PKM> argue whether God is benevolent or not, another to argue whether God PKM> exists or not. PKM>> 5) the concept of God is logically impossible PKM>> PKM> Yet, how many famed works of logic actually argue for divine existence? PKM> I think we need to separate the idea of the Christian concept of "God" PKM> with the general idea of "God." In Hinduism, God cannot control the law PKM> of karma, yet God is still seen as all-powerful. Even in Abrahamic PKM> religions, you have the idea of a God *incapable* of doing evil. Yet, PKM> even here God is still seen as "all-powerful." PKM> Regards, PKM> Paul Kekai Manansala Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri Dec 25 15:28:46 1998 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 17:28:46 +0200 Subject: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01be2fcc$01a0c5a0$0ccc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227044105.23782.12657592433935516139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Claude I happen to jave written a review of a book by a logician about religion. If you can read Dutch you can look it it yourself: 'Tot in der eindigheid' by J.P van Bendegem (ISBN 90 5240 425 9). What I found remarkable is that many arguments against common articles of belief are not only put into words but also into strict logical formulae, so that you can see that they're waterproof (if you are familiar with logical symbols that is). The observation that maths has something to do with religious believe is underscored in the book by a criticism of the concept of ethernity, which is accordig to the writer one of main the causes of the fallacy of believe in a god. The discussion about human or divine concepts has already been decided by Xenophon, one of the first European philosophers: 'if horses could speak they would adore gods with horses heads'. Op vrijdag, 25-dec-98 schreef Claude Setzer: CS> Partha Banarjee said: CS> - CS>> Mathematical reasoning can't "prove" the existence of God. Only CS>> spirituality and beliefs can. CS> Do you know what mathematics is???? CS> In fact, mathematics is every bit as much human as "spirituality" CS> and it would seem to me much more so. CS> Mathematics can only "prove" human models of nature and are rarely very CS> accurate. CS> For example, Bohr's theory changed the whole scientific description of CS> nature, CS> but it just barely approaches an accurate description of even the CS> simplest atom, Hydrogen, CS> and is far too complicated to describe anything else in nature. Yet most CS> of our modern "understanding" of the microscopic world came out of this. CS> If we look closely, we might find that "scientists" take just as many CS> leaps of faith as those who accept the existence of God, may be a lot CS> more!! CS> In fact even the concept of "proof" is only human imagination. CS> At least "spirituality" has some aspect of divinity to it, CS> and would be a much more reasonable tool for use of CS> describing the existence and nature of God. In fact it CS> very often seems that experience of God is far easier and more practical CS> than CS> experience of certain mathematical proofs. CS> I don't understand why you think your beliefs should over ride every one CS> else's. CS> Claude Setzer Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Dec 25 19:34:12 1998 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 18:34:12 -0100 Subject: Address of Martha L. Carter Message-ID: <161227044107.23782.13222392902655324483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any help regarding the address and e-mail of Martha L. Carter would be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance -- and a "Happy New Year" to all, VTh --------------------------------- LaserSatz Thewalt Dr. Volker Thewalt fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de http://www.w3pro.de http://www.uebersatz.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 26 02:40:10 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 18:40:10 -0800 Subject: 'Siva and Avalokitezvara Message-ID: <161227044144.23782.10376482557162912893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> daza bhUmika sUtra (200-225 AD) --------------------------------- The bhUmis where bodhisattva is progressively reborn ---------------------------------------------------------------- Birth no. Name of bhUmi Attributes -------------------------------------------------------------- 1. pramuditA (joyful) King of JambudvIpa 2. vimalA (pure) Universal Monarch - ruler of four dvIpas, - owner of seven jewels. 3. prabhAkarI (light giving) Indra in the heaven 4. arciSmatI (radiant) SuyAma, ruler of higher devas 5. sudurjayA (difficult to conquer) Ruler of TuSita heaven 6. abhimukhI (face-to-face) Ruler of nirmANa-rati devas 7. dUrangamA (far reaching) Ruler of paranirmitavazavartins 8. acalA (immovable) Mahaabrahmaa, ruler of 1000 worlds 9. SaadhumatI(holy wisdom) Mahaabrahmaa, ruler of 2000 worlds 10. dharma megha (law cloud) Mahezvara ziva In this last stage, the bodhisattva is anointed and experiences great samAdhis. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine, p. 284, "In each bhUmi, a bodhisattva's glory and power (prabhAva) increase a hundredfold, a thousandfold, a millionfold and so on. His rebirths exhibit a similar progressive tendency. [...] This last stage betrays the influence of the "saiva sect, which is also apparent in the list of the heavens in the MahAvyUtpatti". In the GaNDavyUha, Avalokitezvara appears before "Siva Mahadeva. SaddharmapuNDarika where the first occurence of Avalokitezvara is found is quoted by Nagarjuna. In addition, the early 3rd century AD text, dazabhUmikasUtra clearly shows the power of "Siva and how a Bodhisattva raises to the position of "Siva as a final attainment. The power/attraction of "Siva to Avalokitezvara can be seen from A.'s birth to final growth. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 26 02:44:59 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 18:44:59 -0800 Subject: A request to Bijoy Misra Message-ID: <161227044146.23782.8568976411121462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In short, fast, crisp replies, all the original message is repeated. My feeling is that this may not be necessary. People just see the original,they don't have to see it again in seconds. In India and elsewhere, people pay by the number of words they receive in e-mails. If you just post your reply, this will save lot of money and bandwidth. Just a thought. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Sat Dec 26 01:28:59 1998 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 19:28:59 -0600 Subject: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044141.23782.13800365686294222550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Erik Hoogcarspel, You said: - I happen to jave written a review of a book by a logician about religion. ... also into strict logical formulae, so that you can see that they're waterproof ... Mathematics, logic (even Dutch Logic!), and philosophy are only tools that must be used carefully and integrated with experience to be of any benefit to humankind. Otherwise, like any tool, they can easily lead to false "knowledge," pain, suffering, even death of thousand's or millions of people. The songwriter, Donovan, in singing about the Vedic experience said: "..innocence in childhood falsely misconstrued to be years of darkness spent enchained, denying childhood's vision of the God of man, so that TRUTH be turned about and UNTruth made..." A few years ago a small 5 year old Indian girl gave dynamic expression to this natural integration of logic and experience. Although I had not seen her for about a year, she came running up to me without any hello or introduction. Her face was wondrously glowing with bliss and excitement, and she blurted out to me, "God must be real, because he is so beautiful!!!" On the other hand, there are many cases of some of the world's most famous and supposedly deepest thinkers that have abused logic, etc. to create UNTruth that has causes lack of knowledge and even immense suffering for thousands or millions of people. A fairly recent example of this is famous physicist, Max Plank I think, "proved" in the early 1900's that cosmic bodies could not give off microwave radiation. He was so highly respected that when many engineers and scientists started to observe microwave radiation from cosmic bodies they were ridiculed and disbelieved. The result was a substantial loss of knowledge in the 1920s and 1930s, that may well have been able to reduce the immense suffering or even to have prevented World War II. Another example is that of Georg Ohm, who's meticulous experimental results led him to propose Ohm's Law. The logic of the time, however, caused him to be ridiculed and exiled for most of his life, holding up the progress of electrical engineering for nearly 50 years, Perhaps one of the most famous philosophers was Aristotle, falsely known as the Father of Science. In reality, he so deluded himself that his "knowledge" of "science" caused immense pain and suffering for nearly 2000 years, until the last of his logical nonsense was finally disproved by Isaac Newton. Before that, Aristotle's theories were so respected that they were even adopted by religion, and those who proved them wrong were put out of society if they were lucky, put to a painful death if not. My point is that clever use of "logic" can be used to "prove" or "disprove" just about anything. Why would anyone want to wade through a book that "disproved" the existence of God??? You either believe in God or not, and a book is unlikely to change that. More to the point of this discussion group, I think your statement about Indolgy being for "scientific" discussion is rather surprising, since a large portion of Vedic literature is very closely linked with God. If by "science" you mean non-belief in God, then it would seem very difficult to get to a profound understanding of literature that places so much emphasis on the nature of God and gods if you do not believe in their existence. Then we would be again under a spell like the ignorance created by Aristotle. I am not in any way trying to be offensive, but we often place far to much importance on logic without considering the truth that it may be related to. Sincerely, Claude Setzer From amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 26 03:42:19 1998 From: amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (m m agrawal) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 19:42:19 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit primers in Hindi? Message-ID: <161227044096.23782.14446706329917550098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin Gansten, I suggest the following Sanskrit Primers and a Dictionary in Hindi to learn Sanskrit : 1.Sanskrit - Vyaakara.na-kaumudii, by Ishvara Chandra Vidyasagar, in four parts. 2.Sanskrit - svayam-''sikshaka-prabhaa, by Gauri Shankar Shastri. 3.Kale Higher Sanskrit Grammar (Hindi Edition). 4.Sanskrit-Hindi-ko''sa, by Vaman Shivaram Apte. With regards, M.M.Agrawal Martin Gansten wrote: > > Dear list members, > > Christmas Eve is probably not a very good time to post a question, but I'll > give it a shot: an Indian friend wishing to learn Sanskrit asked me about > good primers and dictionaries, primarily in Hindi. Being Hindi-illiterate > myself, I am wholly ignorant on this subject. Can anyone recommend any > particular introductory texts and dictionaries for Hindi-speakers trying to > learn Sanskrit on their own? > > Thanks in advance, > Martin Gansten From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Dec 26 01:35:08 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 20:35:08 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19981225205059.23858.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044142.23782.3415245300216861541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would think that the karma theory emanates from Jainism and gets absorbed into other lines of faith. Jainism bases its doctrines on the creation and annihiliation of Karma. Doesn't need a God to monitor it though.. Creates a scale for karma and you may measure. Just be good and all sins are gone (in time). (The Scientific Foundations of Jainism, K.V., Mardia, Motilal Banarsidas) Bijoy Misra On Fri, 25 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > The Vaishnava bhakti tradition of the power of God > to cancel karma is similar the Mahayana doctrine > where bodhisattvas cancel the karma of those suffering > in different types of hell (cf. Har dayal, Bodhisattva > doctrine in Buddhist sanskrit lit.) > > The ability of God's control increases after Bhakti > assumes prominence. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > >In Hinduism, God cannot control the law > >of karma, yet God is still seen as all-powerful. > > Just for the record, as far as I am aware, in the Hindu tradition, God > is > described as the controller of the law of karma. One reference for this > is > a quote from a translation of Brahma-samhita by Bhaktisiddhanta > Sarasvati > Thakura of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition: > > "I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all > fruitive > activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains > for > each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, for all those > who > walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their > previously > performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the > name > indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas" (Sri Brahma-samhita, > verse 54). > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ellraven at WXS.NL Fri Dec 25 20:50:20 1998 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Raven, E.M.) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 21:50:20 +0100 Subject: Address of Martha L. Carter Message-ID: <161227044129.23782.16995859372074314022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Volker Thewalt wrote: > > Any help regarding the address and e-mail of Martha L. Carter would be > highly appreciated. > Thanks in advance -- and a "Happy New Year" to all, > VTh > --------------------------------- > LaserSatz Thewalt > Dr. Volker Thewalt > fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 > http://www.thewalt.de > http://www.w3pro.de > http://www.uebersatz.de > e-mail: vt at thewalt.de > --------------------------------- Dr. Martha L. Carter 325 Lakewood Blvd. Madison WI 53704 USA tel. home and office: 608-244-8795 fax: 608-244-1946 e-mail: homaas at aol.com source: ACSAA membership directory May 1998 Ellen Raven ABIA Index, Leiden From ellraven at WXS.NL Fri Dec 25 21:02:38 1998 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Raven, E.M.) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 22:02:38 +0100 Subject: Email Address Message-ID: <161227044131.23782.10073493207146303922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mary Storm wrote: > > Holiday Greetings Indologists: > > I need Gerard Foekema's email address (he writes about Hoysala temples). > Can anyone help ? > > Thanks in advance, > Mary Storm Dear Mary Storm, I have not been able to trace an e-mail address for Gerard Foekema, but below are his address and tel. number. Tel. :020-6621081 FOEKEMA, DRS G M M. WOUWERMANSTR 38 HS 1071MA AMSTERDAM Ellen Raven ABIA Index, Leiden From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Fri Dec 25 15:18:49 1998 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 23:18:49 +0800 Subject: Last year of the century? Message-ID: <161227044100.23782.11341287354751745315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:56 AM 12/25/98 PST, you wrote: >Dear Indology members, > >What are the occurences of Tiger skin/fur as >a waist dress for 'Siva Mahadeva? > >Does Lord 'Siva wear this, according to Samskrit >texts? What about Sri Rudram, Matsya, Kuurma >and Skanda puraaNams? > >Any quotes are highly appreciated. > >Have a great 1999, the last year of the century. > >With warm regards, >N. Ganesan The last year of the century should be 2000 A.D. The next century would only start with 2001 A.D. As was the case with the 1st century A.D. which started with 1 A.D. and ended with 100 A.D. A century is 1-100 and a millenium is 1-1000. Ninty-nine runs don't make a century, do they?:-) Regards JayBee ============================================================================ > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 26 13:39:10 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 05:39:10 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044155.23782.4808115776555010994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> p. 32, Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine, "In fact, the very word bhakti, as a technical religious term, occurs for the first time in Indian literature in a Buddhist treatise and not in a Hindu scripture. The TheragAthA speaks of bhatti: 'so bhattimA nAma ca hoti paNDito JatvA ca dhammesu visesi assa'. This anthology contains verses that go back to the earliest period of the history of Buddhism, and its final redaction took place in the middle of the third century BC." N. Chutiwongs, Buddha of the Future, 1994, p.70 "The worship of Maitreya as a bodhisattva on earth and as an inhabitant of the Tushita heaven spead from Northwest India throughout Central Asia to China. Worship of Maitreya was particularly important in the Central Asian kingdom of Khotan. Acc. to later Tibetan texts, Vijayasambhava and Vijayavirya two kings who ruled Khotan in the first century CE are considered to have been incarnations of Maitreya. Moreover, The Book of Zambasta, a famous Buddhist text in which Maitreya prophesies the utopia he will lead as the Buddha of the future and urges his followers to practice the proper forms of Buddhism was written in Khotan." A. Soper, Lietrary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, p. 212 "Finally, Maitreya was the Buddha-to-be, who in the far distant future is to return to a purified and happy world, attain Enlightenment, and lead countless hosts to salvation. ... The last-named role must have been the primary one. It seems clear that Maitreya was first of all, the Buddhist solution to the yearning for a Messiah that took on such strength over the whole Near and Middle East in the centuries after Alexander. The strongest encouragement toward defining His personality and mission probably came into India from the outside world. The Indian mind, with its instinct for expansion and multiplication, was entirely capable of projecting the Buddha idea into the future. ... The Maitreya myth was unlike all other Buddhist projections across space and time in being unique, not merely a duplication or an equivalent of something else. .. 'Saakyamuni had come to be counted the seventh of those who had come in succession to preach and to convert, Maitrreya was the single saviour imaginable in the future.... The similarity between these themes and those of the great saviour cults of the lands farther to the west is unmistakable. (though the Buddhist version was purged of all terror and destruction, and Maitreya was pictured neither as a conqueror nor as a judge.) In view of the general pressure exerted by Iranian culture on Northwest India in the age of foreign rulers between the Mauryan and Guptan dynasties, it is most likely that the resemblance points to Persia as a source. In this connection there may be more than a coincidence in the fact that the very name Maitreya is phonetically close to Mitra; and that His occasional pseudonym Ajita has the same meaning as Mithra's epithet, which the Romans rendered as "invictus". .. The belief in Maitreya's golden age must have developed fairly early, since it is recorded in Hinayana and Mahayana texts, and there in the Pali versions as well as in the Sanskrit sUtras that were translated into Chinese." I think this idea of Maitreya, the future Buddha (Messiah) was borrowed into the majority religion, Hinduism. The Hindu priest-philosophers transferred the Maitreya concept onto Vasudeva Krishna. Bhagavad giithaa with the theme of God talking to Man was created at that time. This may have happened at the time Sanskrit sutras of Mahayana, 1st or 2nd century AD. Sankaracharya chose to use Giithaa in the war against Buddhists because it is closer to Buddhist texts themselves (eg., Lotus sutra and Giithaa, cf. H. Kern). Before Sankara, in what texts other than Mahabharata, Giithaa is mentioned? In India what are the early representations in texts or sculptures of Krishna as a Charioteer? Any suggestions? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 26 13:53:07 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 05:53:07 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044157.23782.16595982494130746908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "In the Mahavastu, MaudgalyAyana returns from a visit to the purgatories and only delivers a sermon on the well-deserved punishment of the sinners. But a few centuries later, the people of India could not bear to think of such cruel pains and penalties as the doctrine of karma inflicted on the unfortunate transgressors of the moral law. They had developed that almost feminine tenderness and sentimentality, which would not allow the representation of tragic scenes on the stage and banned real tragedy from Indian literature. The same gentle temper rose in revolt against the old doctrine of karma. The Mahayanists evolved the humane teaching that even a sinner was not destined to suffer in the three states of woe, as the bodhisattvas could cancel his Demerit (pApa) by giving him some of their Merit (puNya). Avalokitezvara was described as releasing the sufferers from the purgatories (hells) without paying any regard to the law of karma. Here again the Mahayanists nearly abrogated the old law of karma and replaced it by the new gospel of karuNA. The old teachers proclaimed that the cosmic law demanded "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But Mahayanists taught that love was the supreme law. ... It sprang from the heart of the Indian people, who could not tolerate the idea of protracted suffering of any description. The philosophers subsequently provided it with a rationale." p. 191, Har Dayal, The Bodhisattva doctrine. Please note that Vaishnava bhakti movement comes few centuries later than the bodhisattva bhakti of Mahayanism. Vaishnava bhakti mass movement starts in the Tamil Alvar poems and spreads northward until Chaitanya was born in Bengal. p. 32, Har Dayal, "In fact, the very word bhakti, as a technical religious term, occurs for the first time in Indian literature in a Buddhist treatise and not in a Hindu scripture. The TheragAthA speaks of bhatti: 'so bhattimA nAma ca hoti paNDito JatvA ca dhammesu visesi assa'. This anthology contains verses that go back to the earliest period of the history of Buddhism, and its final redaction took place in the middle of the third century BC." Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------------------- <<<< >In Hinduism, God cannot control the law >of karma, yet God is still seen as all-powerful. Just for the record, as far as I am aware, in the Hindu tradition, God is described as the controller of the law of karma. One reference for this is a quote from a translation of Brahma-samhita by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition: "I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, for all those who walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas" (Sri Brahma-samhita, verse 54). >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 26 17:01:28 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 09:01:28 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227044171.23782.12072054168068896771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sreenivas, Greetings from Ganesan. When does the Sufi movemement in Baasra get started? What century? I think Hindu bhakti, which as a mass movement gets going from KaraikkAl Amma (5th cent.), Tevaram saints, Srivaishnava Alvars, draws its inspiration from earlier Mahayana traditions of Bodhisattva bhakti (cf. Avalokitezvara, ch. XXIV, Lotus sutra etc., GaNDavyUha is a Southern text, ..). Similar bhakti-like phenomenon can be detected in Jain rituals, texts, especially from the South, 1-5 ceturies AD. Hinduism absorbs these popular longigs and expresses them as Bhagavad Giithaa, Tevaram, Divya prabandham, etc., I do not think Sufism is the cause of bhakti origins. But, later than 8th or 9th century AD, Sufism could be a factor. Inversely, Sufism could have been influenzed by Muslim contacts with India too. It could be an ubhaya mArga between bhakti and sufi cults. Regards, N. Ganesan <<< Ch. Vaudeville in her oft-cited essay: Evolution of love symbolism in Bhagavatism (JAOS, 1962) writes about a possible link between the Sufi movement (with its origins in Baasra) and the Bhakti movement (in south). There were already strong trade links between Baasra and the Malabar coast. >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Sat Dec 26 15:58:24 1998 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 10:58:24 -0500 Subject: Avadhi Ramayan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044148.23782.17823014558857745730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, M. Tandy wrote: > Baburam Saxena says that Baisvari, or KosalI, are other names > that have been used for the dialect of Avadhi which was spoken around > Lucknow and adjacent areas. That is as wrong as saying that Ligurian, Umbrian and Tuscan are other names for Italian. Baiswari, etc. are dialects of the Koshali language, just as Ligurian etc. are dialects of Italian. One may argue whether these have now evolved into separate langauges, but they are not synonyms. Koshal was a large empire, like France, and had its own langauge Koshali, just like French. As tradition is restored, we should be hearing a lot more about this language. The subj: should have been `Koshali Ramayana' or `Baisvari Ramayan' to be correct because that is what Tulsidas wrote in. Samar From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Sat Dec 26 11:17:00 1998 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 12:17:00 +0100 Subject: "Your eyes are divine" In-Reply-To: <01be2fcc$01a0c5a0$0ccc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227044150.23782.18059213324787365096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Partha Banarjee said: >- >>Mathematical reasoning can't "prove" the existence of God. Only >>spirituality and beliefs can. > >Do you know what mathematics is???? >In fact, mathematics is every bit as much human as "spirituality" >and it would seem to me much more so. > >Mathematics can only "prove" human models of nature and are rarely very >accurate............... > >I don't understand why you think your beliefs should over ride every one >else's. > >Claude Setzer There are 4 types of knowledge: 1/ Mathematical: 2+2=4 2/ Juridical: "Keep to the left" or "smoking is prohited" 3/ Metaphysical:"where there is smoke, there is fire" 4/ Metaphorical: "Your eyes are divine" Now each of this knowledge has its strength and its weakness. Mathematical knowledge is understandable. In given circumstances the human mind can have difficulties to understand, but with a growth of knowledge the hurdles gradually diappear. The juridical language makes room for interpretation. Here in Switzerland there is a middle line marked on all roads; in France, the left and the right is often with reference to the on coming traffic. As we go down southwards in Europe, the middle lines diappear. And in my country, India, the left and right is left to the good wish and grace of the drivers. The metaphysical laws know no exception. But they need to be proved and a perfect proof is often difficult to be obtained. But the 4/ metaphorical knowledge is a special one. There the hearer is as important as the speaker for knowledge to take place. When I say "your eyes are divine" I mean something. But my hearer will understand it in his or her own way. And the on-hearers will, every one of them- will understand my phrase in his/her own way. That is the power of the metapher. You got to be in a bodily and inner receptivity to catch a metapher. The seed will bear abundant fruit if it falls in the rich soil. Now to try to prove or disprove God mathematically is as ridiculous as trying to understand mathematical laws metaphorically. People have often tried to apply juridical knowledge to God's knowledge; and their dogmas have killed the living metapher. Only spirituality (which means awakening from sleep- another metapher! ) can recognise (pratyaabhijnaa) God like the baby recognises her mother and smiles. That is not over-riding. It is scientific humility. Anand Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Dec 26 17:46:09 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 12:46:09 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan Message-ID: <161227044179.23782.15333754072987026466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/26/98 11:02:30 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > I think Hindu bhakti, which as a mass movement gets going > from KaraikkAl Amma (5th cent.), Tevaram saints, Srivaishnava Alvars, > draws its inspiration from earlier Mahayana traditions of > Bodhisattva bhakti (cf. Avalokitezvara, ch. XXIV, Lotus sutra etc., > GaNDavyUha is a Southern text, ..). Similar bhakti-like > phenomenon can be detected in Jain rituals, texts, especially from the > South, 1-5 ceturies AD. Hinduism absorbs > these popular longigs and expresses them as Bhagavad Giithaa, > Tevaram, Divya prabandham, etc., > > I do not think Sufism is the cause of bhakti origins. But, > later than 8th or 9th century AD, Sufism could be a factor. > Inversely, Sufism could have been influenzed by Muslim > contacts with India too. It could be an ubhaya mArga > between bhakti and sufi cults. > Friedhelm Hardy in his "viraha bhakti" shows the linkage between Classical Tamil traditions and the bhakti movements. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Dec 26 17:50:15 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 12:50:15 -0500 Subject: ghaTikA as college Message-ID: <161227044182.23782.16311607569801501731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate if anybody can give me information/references about the early uses of the word "ghaTikA" in the sense of "college" in Sanskrit/Prakrit/Pali. (I know about the Kadamba inscription referring to the ghaTikA in Kanchi.) Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Dec 26 18:17:14 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 13:17:14 -0500 Subject: Tiger skin on "Siva's waist Message-ID: <161227044188.23782.4912021656194457146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/26/98 11:30:43 AM Central Standard Time, amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > 1.There is one reference of TANTRASAARA, which quotes : > 'Vyaaghra-tvak-paridhaana.m Niilaka.n.tha.m Bhaje' > 'I pay homage to Niikala.n.tha or 'Siva, who wears waist-dress of > the > skin/fur of tiger'. > 3.There is a different reference of KAALIKAA-PURAA.NA, chapter 43, which > presents the beauty of 'siva during His ceremony of marriage and quotes > : > 'vicitra-vasana.m vyaaghra-k.rttiraasiittadaa'... What are the accepted dates for these texts? The invocatory verse of kalittokai, a late CT text has ziva wearing tiger's skin and dancing after destroying tripura. Even if the invocatory verse is considered to be later than the main text, clearly the zaivite texts have innumerable references to ziva wearing tiger's skin. Interestingly, cilappatikAram portrays koRRavai wearing tiger's skin in vETTuvavari. This text is not later than 5th century AD. Regards S. Palaniappan From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Dec 26 10:28:18 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 13:28:18 +0300 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044201.23782.8993699029985617992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dec. 26 N.Ganesan wrote: > I think this idea of Maitreya, the future Buddha (Messiah) > was borrowed into the majority religion, Hinduism. > The Hindu priest-philosophers transferred the Maitreya > concept onto Vasudeva Krishna. Bhagavad giithaa with the > theme of God talking to Man was created at that time. > This may have happened at the time Sanskrit sutras > of Mahayana, 1st or 2nd century AD. > Sankaracharya chose to use Giithaa in the war against Buddhists > because it is closer to Buddhist texts themselves (eg., Lotus sutra > and Giithaa, cf. H. Kern). > Before Sankara, in what texts other than Mahabharata, Giithaa is > mentioned? In India what are the early representations > in texts or sculptures of Krishna as a Charioteer? > Any suggestions? The pictures of KRSNArjunasaMvAda appear rather late in Indian art, it is true. But does it mean that theism and bhakti are late phenomena in India, too? By the way, KRSNa is historically THE FIRST of the Mbh personages to appear in Indian art (Agathocles's coins and a terracotta from Sugh, both belonging to the 2nd cent. BC). KRSNa then dominates in Hindu iconography of the KuSANa period, and Govardhanadhara KRSNa theme is popular in sculpture of 4th-6th AD (see V.P.Dwivedi. Mbh in Indian art. - In: Mahabharata: Myth and reality. Differing Views. Delhi, 1976, pp. 126-134). Is not the bhakti cult of VAsudeva evidenced in the same 2th century BC by the famous "Heliodoros" column? Is not the theism of the GItA firmly rooted both in theistic tendencies of early SAMkhya-Yoga and in theistic UpaniSads? Participants of this discussion are probably right asserting that MASS bhakti cult of the Middle ages could develop under some Buddhist or foreign influences. But this is not the case with GItA's theism and bhakti. Best regards, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu vassilkov at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 27 00:14:45 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 16:14:45 -0800 Subject: Tiger skin on "Siva's waist Message-ID: <161227044198.23782.5294099145916232994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is tantrasaara a Kashmir 'Saivaite text? Thanks, N. Ganesan > 1.There is one reference of TANTRASAARA, which quotes : > 'Vyaaghra-tvak-paridhaana.m Niilaka.n.tha.m Bhaje' > 'I pay homage to Niikala.n.tha or 'Siva, who wears waist-dress of > the > skin/fur of tiger'. > 3.There is a different reference of KAALIKAA-PURAA.NA, chapter 43, which > presents the beauty of 'siva during His ceremony of marriage and quotes > : > 'vicitra-vasana.m vyaaghra-k.rttiraasiittadaa'... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sat Dec 26 22:32:01 1998 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 17:32:01 -0500 Subject: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01be2fcc$01a0c5a0$0ccc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227044192.23782.8997690026738662804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banarjee said: - >Mathematical reasoning can't "prove" the existence of God. Only >spirituality and beliefs can. _______ Claude Setzer (CS) responded: Do you know what mathematics is???? In fact, mathematics is every bit as much human as "spirituality" and it would seem to me much more so. [...] I don't understand why you think your beliefs should over ride every one else's. _______ In relation to CS's last line, if I have imposed on anyone's beliefs, I am sorry. Repeated personal snide remarks on me aside, I thought we were only exchanging opinions and debating based on our own convictions. From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Dec 26 16:35:44 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 17:35:44 +0100 Subject: Kamban's Aryan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044166.23782.40984319784540502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ch. Vaudeville in her oft-cited essay: Evolution of love symbolism in Bhagavatism (JAOS, 1962) writes about a possible link between the Sufi movement (with its origins in Baasra) and the Bhakti movement (in south). There were already strong trade links between Baasra and the Malabar coast. Are there any other (/further) studies exploring this link? Regards, --Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From dhada at MINDSPRING.COM Sat Dec 26 22:51:56 1998 From: dhada at MINDSPRING.COM (Mustafah Dhada) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 17:51:56 -0500 Subject: Would this query be appropriate for this list Message-ID: <161227044194.23782.1751936322235500698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would this query ber appropriate for this list? Forgive me if not. I have recently joined the list and therefore am new at this. I am conducting research on two issues: migration, and the origins and development of Kthatri - as an ontological as well as a caste. The migration patterns of interest to me is that of the Sindhis (in particular Khatris) stretching as far back as I can. My particular interest is migration emanating from Sindh itself in and around Hala outward bound into the southeast and or thence overseas. If you have any bibliographic pointers and ideas as to archival and or primary sources I would appreciate an e-buzz. Rather than clog the list with responses I would suggest that perhaps respondents use my dhada at mindspring.com address. I will eventually collate the information in a synthesis and post it for others to view and critique. One possible source I thought useful to prove to pin this topic to the impirical wall was to deploy genealogical records. I am however, not aware that such things do exist and if they do how accurate are these records likely to be in the context of apocrypohal orality or in terms of telescoping distortions of records set to paper years after the event. M. Dhada., FRSA, D.Phil(Oxon), Associate Professor Graduate School of International Affairs and Development Clark Atlanta University From dhada at MINDSPRING.COM Sat Dec 26 23:12:10 1998 From: dhada at MINDSPRING.COM (Mustafah Dhada) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 18:12:10 -0500 Subject: Errata Message-ID: <161227044196.23782.3747452037696622215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I regret several typos im my earlier posting. I mean Khatris and not Kthatris and ontology as opposed to ontological From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Dec 26 17:35:22 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 18:35:22 +0100 Subject: [q] Iravati Karwe's essays on raamaayaNa In-Reply-To: <19981226170129.23018.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044176.23782.5976839729839411149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings all. I understand that late Iravathi Karwe also wrote a series of essays on _raamaayaNa_ which were published in a Marathi (?) magazine/journal "satyaprabha". Were these ever translated into English (like her essays on MBh, pblished under the title: yugaanta)? Thanks and Regards, Sreenivas P.S. Re: my earlier query; Vaudeville & Sufism ... I didn't want to (nor Vaudeville!) imply that "Sufism is the cause of 'bhakti' movement". I am only looking for studies exploring the links between these two, how both 'd have influenced each other. -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 27 07:03:35 1998 From: amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (m m agrawal) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 23:03:35 -0800 Subject: Tiger skin on "Siva's waist Message-ID: <161227044173.23782.14610444463419370276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Dear Indology members, > > What are the occurences of Tiger skin/fur as > a waist dress for 'Siva Mahadeva? > > Does Lord 'Siva wear this, according to Samskrit > texts? What about Sri Rudram, Matsya, Kuurma > and Skanda puraaNams? > > Any quotes are highly appreciated. > > Have a great 1999, the last year of the century. > > With warm regards, > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Dear N. Ganesan, 1.There is one reference of TANTRASAARA, which quotes : 'Vyaaghra-tvak-paridhaana.m Niilaka.n.tha.m Bhaje' 'I pay homage to Niikala.n.tha or 'Siva, who wears waist-dress of the skin/fur of tiger'. Here 'Vyaaghra-tvak-paridhaana' means 'a paridhaana = a lower garment of the skin/fur tiger'. There are four words for waist-dress : Antariiya, upasa.mvyaana, paridhaana and adho.m'suka (see Amarako'sa, 2.6.117 : Antariiyopasa.mvyaanaparidhaanaanyadho.m'suke'.). 2.There is another reference of TANTRSAARA, which quotes : 'dhyaayennitya.m mahe'sa.m vyaaghra-k.rtti-vasana.m' 'One should regularly meditate on Mahe'sa or 'Siva, who wears a cloth or a long cloth of the skin/fur of tiger'. Here 'vyaaghra-k.rtti-vasana' means 'a cloth or long cloth of the skin/fur of tiger'. There are six words for only cloth : vastra, aacchaadana, vaasa, caila, vasana and a.m'suka (see Amarako'sa, 2.6.115 : 'vastramaacchaadana.m vaasa's caila.m vasanma.m'sukam') This is the diference. 3.There is a different reference of KAALIKAA-PURAA.NA, chapter 43, which presents the beauty of 'siva during His ceremony of marriage and quotes : 'vicitra-vasana.m vyaaghra-k.rttiraasiittadaa'..... Best regards and a Happy New Year'. Madan Mohan Agrawal From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 27 04:08:10 1998 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 23:08:10 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryanand other topics In-Reply-To: <19981222190640.4850.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044185.23782.4588701944890404089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been following wit interest the exchanges on some varied topics. i have some comments by way of loud-thinking. Re suggestions that Bull-worshipping could have metamorpho sised into linga worship, one would always consider that linga worship is anthrophomorphic and could not have origins from bull-worship however mighty penis we may endow the bulls with.Why should the phallus worship of some autocthons be lifted up and assigned to the worship of Siva who was the original Lord of the Universe after jettisoning the nature gods? When and why was the phallus wedded to Yoni giving rise to the delectable dressing given to linga worship? Anyway given the attribtes of Siva (or,should it be attribute-less Siva) representing any other way would look silly-definitely not the north indian calender type effiminate Siva with mascaraed eyes! Incidentally what was there in sanctum sanctorum of early Siva temples? I am told that this format had come into being in case the great Kailasanatha temple in Kanchi(600-700AD) when it was first consecrated. Now to Hanuman being appropriated as monkey-god of Tamil country origins- why we should consider at all that Ramayana episodes had peninsular India as locale? After all if the Ramayana events took place at the time it is believed to be now,the country would not have been colonised fringes of Gangetic plains notwithstanding the assertions Kishkinda,SEthu,Lanka etc in their present locations. There is a strong view that Ramayana events are extra- peninsular.Though the Asuras are demonised in Hindu belief,we are coming to agree that they could be ancient Iranians. Gita-Geetha-Giita In the orthodox and conservative environment we grew up Gita was never dinned into us for rote or for daily recitations. Vishnu Shahasranamam and like the preferred rotes. Perhaps the elders thought they more benifit-accruing ritualistic and rote value than the philosophising and moralistic Gita.In our younger days for popular expositions- upanyas-episodes from puranas,Ramayana,Mahabharata were in vogue.It is only in recent times there are so many Gita-Exponents,Gita schools, Gita seminars etc. As one rightly pointed out,the Krishna of south is more antics playing Krishna ,Balakrishna or Aalilai Kannan THe famous Tanjore school of painting depicts only infant Krishna or Rukmani-sathyabama Krisna and not the philosophising KrishnaThe Classical composer Dikshitar also adopted Ruk-Sat Krishna for paying his reverence in his compositions The ubiquitous plaster of paris philosophy touting Lord is as modern as TV. sorry for boring you all, XKrish. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 27 13:24:46 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 05:24:46 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044205.23782.1062458150064035893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< [...] Govardhanadhara KRSNa theme is popular in sculpture of 4th-6th AD (see V.P.Dwivedi. Mbh in Indian art. - In: Mahabharata: Myth and reality. Differing Views. Delhi, 1976, pp. 126-134). Is not the bhakti cult of VAsudeva evidenced in the same 2th century BC by the famous "Heliodoros" column? Is not the theism of the GItA firmly rooted both in theistic tendencies of early SAMkhya-Yoga and in theistic UpaniSads? >>> I heard that there is a difference between Vasudeva Krishna and Gopala (Giridhara) Krishna cults. Can someone explain this difference, please? <<< Participants of this discussion are probably right asserting that MASS bhakti cult of the Middle ages could develop under some Buddhist or foreign influences. But this is not the case with GItA's theism and bhakti. >>> After the 1962 paper of Charlotte Vaudeville, many important progresses in bhakti studies have been made. Pl. see A. K. Ramanujan's Speaking of Siva, Hymns for the drowning, F. Hardy's virahabhakti, Vidya Dehejia's Path of the Tamil saints, Indira Peterson's Poems for 'Siva, V. Narayanrao's, Warriors of 'Siva, .... Hindu bhakti does not have any foreign origin. Sufism has nothing to do with bhakti origins. Bhakti-like phenomenon can be seen in the development of Bodhsattva bhakti in Buddhism and similar ones in Jainism earlier. Later, Hindu MASS bhakti starts in the Tamil South in 5th century AD and spreads northward. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 27 13:38:40 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 05:38:40 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044207.23782.12128515208575429056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Is not the bhakti cult of VAsudeva evidenced in the same 2th century BC by the famous "Heliodoros" column? Is not the theism of the GItA firmly rooted both in theistic tendencies of early SAMkhya-Yoga and in theistic UpaniSads? >>> I understand that GItA has theistic tendencies of early SAMkhya-Yoga and UpaniSads. But is it the only reason why GItA is dated so early? For me, it appears not a sufficient evidence. Some guy/s living in say, 2nd century AD (or say, 4th century AD?) who is well-versed on YogasUtras and UpaniSads might have authored GItA and placed it in MahabhArata. This could be a reaction to bhakti-like phenomenon in Mahayana and Jainism. These queries can be settled, (given that Krishna as a charioteer or advisor to Arjuna appear very late, post-14th centuy AD in art.) by pointing out GItA quotes in other Samskrit or other language texts, whose approximate dates we know. Hence, what are the earlier Giitaa citations in other Indian texts? Before Sankara. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 27 15:52:34 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 07:52:34 -0800 Subject: [q] transl. of Biardeau's essay Message-ID: <161227044211.23782.6810365235611582385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Sreenivas, Please don't send your posts as attachments. We can't read it. Thanks, n. ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From umadevi at SFO.COM Sun Dec 27 18:07:55 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 10:07:55 -0800 Subject: Email Address Message-ID: <161227044216.23782.12424135678821104203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear E, M. Raven, Many thanks for your help. Mary Raven, E.M. wrote: > > Mary Storm wrote: > > > > Holiday Greetings Indologists: > > > > I need Gerard Foekema's email address (he writes about Hoysala temples). > > Can anyone help ? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Mary Storm > > Dear Mary Storm, > > I have not been able to trace an e-mail address for Gerard Foekema, but > below are his address and tel. number. > > Tel. :020-6621081 > FOEKEMA, DRS G M M. > WOUWERMANSTR 38 HS 1071MA AMSTERDAM > > Ellen Raven > ABIA Index, Leiden From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Dec 27 10:49:06 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 10:49:06 +0000 Subject: SIGNOFF INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: <01BE2F38.3190CD80@dc2-modem1924.dial.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <161227044203.23782.3031896022743370368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Roelf, To unsubscribe from INDOLOGY, just send the message unsubscribe indology to the address listserv at liverpool.ac.uk All the best for 1999, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From umadevi at SFO.COM Sun Dec 27 20:00:25 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 12:00:25 -0800 Subject: Barabudur etymology Message-ID: <161227044218.23782.10561456317421171492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Dr. Ganesan, Hate to throw a wet blanket on this idyll, but check out the lowest friezes in the now covered (or mostly covered) basement level. There are photographs in a few monographs. This level deals with all the miseries of this world. The basement level, which has relief carving illustrating the Karmavibhanga Sutra was encased and completely concealed in a wide processional path. The issue has been debated whether the basement was concealed as part of the original plan, with the symbolic intent to suppress the Kamadhatu, the realm of desire, or whether the basement was encased later to shore up the heavy building that began to collapse in the later half of the ninth century. If it was originally encased it would support the mandala symbolism of a structure with layers of meaning, each posing an initial barrier and then leading the pilgrim to deeper levels of understanding. Cheers, Mary > > In all the 1400 big sculptural panels, calmness and serenity > prevails. No death, violence, sex is displayed at all. > I am reminded of the grammatical rules of Tamil poetics to write love > poems: no descriptions explicitly of death, violence, or sex > should occur in akam/"interior landscape" poems. > > What a difference with today's TV, magazines, Cinema??!! > Mostly they concentrate on opposite things of Borobudur > reliefs or Tamil sangam love poetry. > > Happy holidays, > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sun Dec 27 13:54:38 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 14:54:38 +0100 Subject: [q] transl. of Biardeau's essay Message-ID: <161227044209.23782.10822351882404629957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am wondering if a translation (or atleast a 1-2 page long summary) of Madeleine Biardeau's paper: "Nala et Damayanti, heros epiques," Indo-Iranian Journal (1984) is available. Thanks in advance! Regards, --Sreenivas P.S. Not related to above query .... There are a couple of essays by Ch. Vaudeville, on govardhana myth, published in Indo-Iranian journal between years 1976 and 1980 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 28 00:42:57 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 16:42:57 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227044221.23782.18369200645858746431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dec. 23, 1998 Dear Sri Krishna, NamaskAram. Bhagavad Giithaa was written by "anonymous Brahmin writers". (cd. Norton anthology of World literature) Around 100 BC. It is a composite text compiled over centuries, inserted into the middle of Mahabharata. It could be as late as 200 AD. Regards, N. Ganesan <<< Hi all Sumarian civilization is considered to be the first Civilization dating back to 3000BC from the history books. But Geeta was dating back to 5561 BC [Ref. The scientific Dating of Mahabharata by Dr.PV.Vartak] which is contradicting the history books that Sumarian is the first civilization. can you through some more light on this? thanks krishna >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 28 00:51:49 1998 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 19:51:49 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <01BE29DC.F962D3A0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044223.23782.15424102670490699878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:47 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dravidam as meaning wealth. When I had sent that to you, you wrote back >saying that Dravida was coined by someone named Caldwell who used the >following : > > Tamizh -> Damila -> Dramila -> Dramida. Robert Caldwell coined the term, >Dravidian from Dramida which means Tamil in Sanskrit. I do not have Bp. Caldwell's pioneering grammar with me, but, from memory, I believe that he outlines the etymology of Tamil differently, the reverse: dravi.da/(var.)drami.da > drami.la > dami.la > tamil It would be very easy to check by rereading the introduction to his __Grammar of the Dravidian or South Indian Family of Languages__. I think it is a wonderful piece of scholarship. There was a reprint of it from Oriental Books Reprint in 1974. Also, he could not have gotten the name *Dravidian by deriving it from Tamil (!). He mentions a specific passage in Kumarila's commentary on the third pada of the Jaimini Sutras (sorry no better reference during Christmas) where he describes the Sanskritisation of "Mleccha" words. I don't recall Caldwell citing what I think must be (*please correct!*) the first mention of "dravi.das" in the Manava Dharmasastra. The use of "dravi.da" in Sanskrit as the classification of a group of people occurs in many places -- Cf. Puranas, Architecture, &c. However, Caldwell is the first scholar to use the term "Dravidian" as a term for linguistic group derived by comparative methods. Earlier scholars (Fr. Paul Tedesco, I believe), used the term "Tamilian". Campbell thought he needed a term that was more general and he used "Tamilian" as a subset. Respectfully, Walker Trimble From amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 28 06:21:59 1998 From: amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (m m agrawal) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 22:21:59 -0800 Subject: Tiger skin on "Siva's waist Message-ID: <161227044214.23782.17216967336057003100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Is tantrasaara a Kashmir 'Saivaite text? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > > > 1.There is one reference of TANTRASAARA, which quotes : > > 'Vyaaghra-tvak-paridhaana.m Niilaka.n.tha.m Bhaje' > > 'I pay homage to Niikala.n.tha or 'Siva, who wears > waist-dress of > > the > > skin/fur of tiger'. > > > 3.There is a different reference of KAALIKAA-PURAA.NA, chapter 43, > which > > presents the beauty of 'siva during His ceremony of marriage and > quotes > > : > > 'vicitra-vasana.m vyaaghra-k.rttiraasiittadaa'... > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com TANTRASAARA is a Kashmir 'Saivaite text. Regards, M. M. Agrawal From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 28 13:02:01 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 05:02:01 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044229.23782.6478199505645575976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I do not have Bp. Caldwell's pioneering grammar with me, but, from memory, I believe that he outlines the etymology of Tamil differently, the reverse: dravi.da/(var.)drami.da > drami.la > dami.la > tamil .... >>> R. Caldwell's works were published in 1856. In the intervening 140 years, lot of linguists have written that Caldwell is mistaken in this. In fact, the derivation is the otherway around. Will give Zvelebil's writing on Caldwell soon. Pl. see in Indology archives my posting with the title "dramiDa/dramiDa". Well, it should be "dramiDa/draviDa". V. I. Subramaniam, K. V. Zvelebil, and other Dravianists say: tamiz > dami.la > drami.la > dravi.da/(var.)drami.da Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 28 15:40:07 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 07:40:07 -0800 Subject: Barabudur etymology Message-ID: <161227044233.23782.18008405146676712195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ms. Mary Storm wrote: <<< Hate to throw a wet blanket on this idyll, but check out the lowest friezes in the now covered (or mostly covered) basement level. There are photographs in a few monographs. This level deals with all the miseries of this world. The basement level, which has relief carving illustrating the Karmavibhanga Sutra was encased and completely concealed in a wide processional path. The issue has been debated whether the basement was concealed as part of the original plan, with the symbolic intent to suppress the Kamadhatu, the realm of desire, or whether the basement was encased later to shore up the heavy building that began to collapse in the later half of the ninth century. If it was originally encased it would support the mandala symbolism of a structure with layers of meaning, each posing an initial barrier and then leading the pilgrim to deeper levels of understanding. >>> Don't have many books on Barabudur at home. Initially thought bArAbudUr = < vihAra + pudUr (Tamil, new village) is shot down. Thanks for the correction. Out of 1460 panels, the submerged, lowest level(by intentional design?? or, by a design failure??) 70-80 panels show suffering in hot hells, This is from mahAkarmavibhanga. However, a big contrast to TV: John Miksic, Borobudur, Golden tales of the Buddhas, 1990, Shambala. p.22 "Some scholars have argued that Borobudur was not influenced by Tantric beliefs because the relief panels do not depict erotic ceremonies or demonic gods .." p.61 "Various factors made it difficult to identify the stories told in reliefs... They avoided showing conflicts, violence or suffering - precisely the scenes that are easiest to identify. The large size of the panels has produced another source of confusion..." Regards, N. Ganesan NG> In all the 1400 big sculptural panels, calmness and serenity NG> prevails. No death, violence, sex is displayed at all. NG> I am reminded of the grammatical rules of Tamil poetics to write love NG> poems: no descriptions explicitly of death, violence, or sex NG> should occur in akam/"interior landscape" poems. NG> NG> What a difference with today's TV, magazines, Cinema??!! NG> Mostly they concentrate on opposite things of Borobudur NG> reliefs or Tamil sangam love poetry. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Dec 28 20:14:45 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 10:14:45 -1000 Subject: request for reading literature. In-Reply-To: <01BE3260.5C2DB0A0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044259.23782.9573656869695746519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture that talks > of the flight from the North to the South after the "Aryan invasion". I There isn't any such traditional literature or belief. On the contrary, according to ancient Tamil literature, the Tamil land extended even further south, but that part became covered by the sea. If so, presumably the inhabitants came NORTHward. FYI, Raja. From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 28 15:41:29 1998 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 10:41:29 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <19981228130202.12506.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044235.23782.16874514341196566499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:02 AM 12/28/98 PST, you wrote: > R. Caldwell's works were published in 1856. In the intervening > 140 years, lot of linguists have written that Caldwell is > mistaken in this. In fact, the derivation is the otherway around. > Regards > N. Ganesan > So, the Sanskrit "dravi.da" is derived from the Tamil . . "tamil"? At what point in you string is are the words Sanskrit and Prakrit and at what point "Dravidian" Tamil > dami.la > drami.la > drami.da/dravi.da ?? From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 28 19:27:46 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 11:27:46 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044246.23782.11376060890503688765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. W. Trimble wrote: *I believe that he outlines the etymology of Tamil differently, the reverse: *dravi.da/(var.)drami.da > drami.la > dami.la > tamil. dramiDa/draviDa is Sanskritization of the term, "tamizh" ****************************************************** K. Zvelebil, Companion studies to the history of Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1992: p.ix, "Let me only stress that I (Zvelebil) am only convinced that the Aryan words are ultimately borrowings from an underlying Dravidian form, and not *vice versa*, as believed by Caldwell." For more details, please see Companion studies ..., 1992 Avant-Propos: The term Tami_z, p. ix-xvii. The term "tamizh" occurs abundantly in Sangam texts (2nd century BC to 2nd century AD). This term, Tamil occurs in TolkAppiyam as well. The term, "tamizh" is not derived from Sanskrit "DramiDa". Respectfully yours, N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------- K. Zvelebil, Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1975 p.49 "However, in early historical times, Sanskrit text composed in the North of India show a rather unfriendly, even contemptuous, attitude towards the Dravidians, cf. MAn. X, 44. CarakasaMhitA, IndriyasthAna V, 28 mentions draviDa and Andraka in one breath with CaNDaalas, pizAcas, dogs, etc., ie., with beings one should not see in one's dreams since they are highly inauspicious. BANa, in the kAdambarI describes the draviDa dharmika very unfavorably (Kadambari edition, K. P. Parab, Bombay, 1921, p. 398-401) The different kAmazAstras usually deal with the women of the South in not too flattering terms". p. 53 "It is obvious that the Sanskrit drAviDa, Pali damila, damiLo and Prakrit dAviDa are all etymologically connected with "tamizh" [48] [48] The *r* in tamizh > drAviDa is a hypercorrect insertion, cf. an analogical case of DED 1033 Ta. Ma. kamuku, Tu. kaGgu, "areca palm"; Skt. kramu(ka)" p. 59 "There is also a reference to a dramiDa saGghAta in the commentary to DaNDin's kAvyadarza by TaruNa VAcaspati. cf. V. Narayana Aiyar, JORM, 2, 1928, p. 149-151." p.140 "In Saundaryalaharii 76 ascribed to zaGkara, Campantar is called draviDazizu. For this tradition of "the boy-saint", cf. also his other epithets, ALuTaiya piLLaiyAr ..." -------------------------------------- K. Zvelebil, Companion studies to the history of Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1992 p. 18 "the word Dravidian, coined by R. Caldwell, in 1856 on the base of the Sanskrit term draaviDa- found in a 7th century AD Sanskrit author [kumArila bhaTTa], is in fact most probably connected with the indigenous term for the Tamizh language, ie., tamizh, whereby the development might have been *tamiz > *damiL > damiLa-/damila- and further, with the intrusive 'hyper-correct' (or perhaps analogical) -r- into draaviDa- 'Dravidian'. cf. the forms damiLa-, damila- occuring in Prakrit, and the alternative Sanskrit for dramila-. The -m/-v alternation is a common phenomenon in Dravidian." Nammalvar's TiruvAymozi is called dramiDopaniSad. Vedanta Desikan wrote dramiDopaniSattAtparyaratnAvalI. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pf at CIX.CO.UK Mon Dec 28 11:36:00 1998 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 11:36:00 +0000 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <19981227133840.7326.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044226.23782.14438094873637929266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Which early bhakti phenomena in Jainism do you have in mind? Peter From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 28 19:40:49 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 11:40:49 -0800 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044252.23782.8690891706509026689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also, I would like to read Sanskrit scriptures where it is mentioned that Aryans are living in IVC around 4000-3000 BC and spreading to Greece and beyond. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 28 19:43:43 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 11:43:43 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044254.23782.1523205440212389732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A ChOzha king's descendent is called ChoDaganga Deva in Kalinga. Is chOzha > choDa something related to tamizh > dramiDa? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 28 17:16:10 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 12:16:10 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044238.23782.1668049991273396816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N.Ganesan wrote : Some guy/s living in say, 2nd century AD (or say, 4th century AD?) who is well-versed on YogasUtras and UpaniSads might have authored GItA and placed it in MahabhArata. This could be a reaction to bhakti-like phenomenon in Mahayana and Jainism. These queries can be settled, (given that Krishna as a charioteer or advisor to Arjuna appear very late, post-14th centuy AD in art.) by pointing out GItA quotes in other Samskrit or other language texts, whose approximate dates we know. Hence, what are the earlier Giitaa citations in other Indian texts? Before Sankara. Regards, N. Ganesan I believe I have read somewhere, I think it was in introduction to Sankara's Gita Bhashya (I am not sure of the translator - Swami Panavananda ???) that the BG is placed as far back as 3102 BC which was the date for the Mahabharata war and the beginning of Kali Yuga. I believe there are several references to Vasudeva (Krishna) in various Vedic scriptures. Also, several verses in BG resemble verses in the Upanisads. Which came first ? Can this be determined ? Thanks Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 28 17:48:24 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 12:48:24 -0500 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044241.23782.18293489047300985701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture that talks of the flight from the North to the South after the "Aryan invasion". I would appreciate if someone could direct me to the oldest such surviving scripture. Thanks Ashish From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 28 21:35:21 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 13:35:21 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044269.23782.13421664124230582291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I believe I have read somewhere, I think it was in introduction to Sankara's Gita Bhashya (I am not sure of the translator - Swami Panavananda ???) that the BG is placed as far back as 3102 BC which was the date for the Mahabharata war and the beginning of Kali Yuga. ... >>> Just reading Eric Wolf's People without History. When the chronological thinking came to India, first from Muslims, and then Europeans, Hindus have a problem. I do not know how to explain Giitaa's date as 3102 BC. Just like Vedas are 5000 BC & Giitaa told to be 3100 BC, some overenthusiastic Tamils date Sangam age, Tolkaappiyam to be 4000 BC, 8000 BC, so on. They try to connect Continental Drift, Lemuria, Gondwana, etc., The main source is 8th century AD, iRaiyanAr akapporuL, recently made available in a scholarly English edition by David C. Buck and K. Paramasivan. They calculate the age of I, II, III Tamil sangams, from generation of poets, kings told there; the flood myths narrated in CilappatikAram, iRaiyanAr akapporuL etc., However, I have a belief in dates proposed in Academic university press publications. There may be some fixes needed there, but not 4000 BC stories. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Dec 28 21:53:09 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 13:53:09 -0800 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044265.23782.8734561801269468810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > > > Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture that talks > > of the flight from the North to the South after the "Aryan invasion". I > > There isn't any such traditional literature > or belief. > > On the contrary, according to ancient > Tamil literature, the Tamil land > extended even further south, but that > part became covered by the sea. If so, > presumably the inhabitants came NORTHward. > There is quite a bit of literature on this subject, and some have attempted to link this Tamil homeland with the land of "Lemuria." Lemuria is a name given to that submerged land that was supposedly inhabited by, among other things, lemurs. A great deal of "new age" theories revolve around Lemuria and its counterpart Atlantis. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Dec 28 19:34:39 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:34:39 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044249.23782.1386844910713846009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/28/98 9:41:25 AM Central Standard Time, wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU writes: > So, the Sanskrit "dravi.da" is derived from the Tamil . . "tamil"? At > what point in you string is are the words Sanskrit and Prakrit and at what > point "Dravidian" > > Tamil > dami.la > drami.la > drami.da/dravi.da ?? > While it is possible for some dead Dravidian language to have had a form damiLa, but the forms with intrusive "r" are clearly Indo-Aryan. See Kuiper's "Aryans in the Rigveda", p. 70-79 for a discussion of the insertion of "r" when words are borrowed into Indo-Aryan. eg. tamiz > dramiDa, kamuku > kramu(ka), pavazam, pavaLam > pravAla, pravADa (p. 70-71). Regards S. Palaniappan From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 28 20:02:46 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 15:02:46 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044256.23782.11003272398979591915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found this piece at a website. It tries to date the Bhagavat Gita. _________ [...] It is possible to date the bhagavadgItA, and the mahAbhArata that it is part of, to a time before the advent of Buddhism. Considering that there is a specific reference to the brahma-sUtra in the 'gItA, in verse XIII-5 of the latter work, it is possible to date the brahma-sUtra also to a time before Buddhism. In fact, bodhAyana, a scholar dated to 400 B.C., refers to the bhagavadgItA and mahAbhArata. In his commentary upon the brahma-sUtra, rAmAnuja refers to a varttika (explanatory text) by bodhAyana in which the latter shows familiarity with both the mImAmsa-sUtra and the brahma-sUtra, and in fact considers them to be two parts of a complete exposition. Unfortunately, no copies of this varttika survive to the present day, and it is also not quoted from by any other scholar. However, it may be presumed that the text did exist in rAmAnuja's time, and combined with the known familiarity of bodhAyana with the bhagavadgIta, goes to show that the brahma-sUtra was definitely already accepted as a canonical text by his time. _________ I don't know the nature of bodhAyana's familiarity with the BG as I have not read Ramanuja's Gita Bhashya. But those who have are welcome to comment on whether or not bodhAyana is seen to be thoroughly familiar with BG. Ashish From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Dec 28 15:20:52 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 15:20:52 +0000 Subject: [Forwarded message] Migrations from Sindh Message-ID: <161227044231.23782.10256611641288064027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 17:03:27 -0500 Mustafah Dhada wrote: > I have recently joined the list and therefore am new at this. I am > conducting research on migration patterns of Sindhis stretching as far back > as the eleventh century. My particular interest is migration emanating from > Sindh itself in and around Hala outward bound into the southeast and or > thence overseas. If you have any bibliographic pointers and ideas as to > archival and or primary sources I would appreciate an e-buzz. Rather than > clog the list with responses I would suggest that perhaps respondents use my > dhada at mindspring.com address. I will eventually collate the information in a > synthesis and post it for others to view and critique. > > One possible source I thought useful to prove to pin this topic to the > impirical wall was to deploy genealogical records. I am however, not aware > that such things do exist and if they do how accurate are these records > likely to be in the context of apocrypohal orality or in terms of > telescoping distortions of records set to paper years after the event. > M. Dhada., FRSA, D.Phil(Oxon), > Associate Professor > Graduate School of International Affairs and Development > Clark Atlanta University > 3360 Archwood Drive, Atlanta, Georgia 30340 > Telephones: (Home) 770 939 1698; (Office) 404 880 6669 > Fax: (Home) 770 939 4755; (Office) 404 880 6676 > Home e-mail: dhada at mindspring.com > Office e-mail: mdhada at cau.edu > __________________________ > Motto: Nunquam Dedere! > > ---------------------------------------------------- From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 28 20:44:01 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 15:44:01 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <01BE3273.21BFD340.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044262.23782.17955743701036708626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Should it not be fair that you post the site that you cite from? There are too many of these cursory observations. thank you. Happy New Year.. Bijoy Misra On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > I found this piece at a website. It tries to date the Bhagavat Gita. > > _________ > [...] > > It is possible to date the bhagavadgItA, and the mahAbhArata that it is > part of, to a time before the advent of Buddhism. Considering that there is > a specific reference to the brahma-sUtra in the 'gItA, in verse XIII-5 of > the latter work, it is possible to date the brahma-sUtra also to a time > before Buddhism. In fact, bodhAyana, a scholar dated to 400 B.C., refers to > the bhagavadgItA and mahAbhArata. In his commentary upon the brahma-sUtra, > rAmAnuja refers to a varttika (explanatory text) by bodhAyana in which the > latter shows familiarity with both the mImAmsa-sUtra and the brahma-sUtra, > and in fact considers them to be two parts of a complete exposition. > Unfortunately, no copies of this varttika survive to the present day, and > it is also not quoted from by any other scholar. However, it may be > presumed that the text did exist in rAmAnuja's time, and combined with the > known familiarity of bodhAyana with the bhagavadgIta, goes to show that the > brahma-sUtra was definitely already accepted as a canonical text by his > time. > _________ > > > I don't know the nature of bodhAyana's familiarity with the BG as I have > not read Ramanuja's Gita Bhashya. But those who have are welcome to comment > on whether or not bodhAyana is seen to be thoroughly familiar with BG. > > Ashish > From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Dec 28 21:00:06 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 16:00:06 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044267.23782.17855936907336816339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.isc.rit.edu/~mrreee/madhva/brahma_suutra.html With all due respect, the remark "Bodhayana was familiar with the Bhagwat Gita" is not in dispute. Just how familiar he was and what was the form of BG in his time i.e. has it been worked upon and improved since Bodhayana or that it exists today as it existed when Bodhayana made quotes from it. It is already a foregone conclusion that if he was familiar with it, and if his date of existence 400 B.C. is not in question, the BG is already dated in the pre-Buddhistic era. Any comments ? Ashish Bijoy Misra wrote : Should it not be fair that you post the site that you cite from? There are too many of these cursory observations. thank you. Happy New Year.. Bijoy Misra From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 29 01:58:21 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 17:58:21 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044276.23782.6954484009810585040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Which early bhakti phenomena in Jainism do you have in mind? Actually, I have not read anything on Jainism yet. Suggestions for me please. Ainslie T. Embree, Encyclopaedia of Asian history, 1988 Bhakti, p. 154 --------------- "Early Bhakti: The ancient roots of Vedic practice are easy to establish, since the relevant texts have been preserved. Equally ancient bhakti texts do not exist, but it would be a mistake to conclude that the emphases of bhakti religion are on that account more recent in their origins. When non-Vedic religion does begin to leave its traces - in early Buddhist and Jain texts - much of it sounds like bhakti. In these texts one hears of such characteristic bhakti practices as the enthusiastic offering of flowers and perfumes; the love of music, singing, and dancing; the veneration of particularly sanctified places. The divinities who are the objects of worship change over time, from the spirits and snakes whose images dominate the earliest Hindu sculptures ..." In South India, about 100 short one- or two-line Tamil inscriptions exist. They are dated from 2nd century BC to 1st century AD. Most of them are by patrons to Jain monks, excavating a rock shelter, .. In the formation and growth of Tamil literature and grammar, the contributions from Jainism are quite large. Similarly, in the jump-starting of Kannada language and nurturing its growth, Jain stamp is highly visible. In PaaTalipuram (modern Cuddalore),a Jain monk translated LokavibhAga from Prakrit to Sanskrit in early 5th century. Buddhist monks were doing the same things. eg., Buddhadatta in Kaveri delta. The schools (paLLi in Tamil) started by Jain and Buddhist (?) monks were spreading literacy. People started supporting these institutions and managers with money and other resources. Seeing all the support for heretic religions and the eventual result that they will lose the mass following, the Hindu priests devised a process, that allowed popular emotional outpourings in the peoples' native language. This process, known as bhakti mass movement, first gets going in the Tamil South and spreads northward. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 29 02:51:33 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 18:51:33 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044283.23782.9291046310626861259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An unorthodox view on bhakti. Regards, N. Ganesan -------------------------------------------------------- REVERENCE TO THE PURSUIT OF KNOWLEDGE! An Indian Strength Email: msriniva at aludra.usc.edu Date: 1998/03/29 view thread Hello/Namashkar/Vanakkam, India's last thousand years, politically, socially, culturally and ecnomically have been defined by two primary issues: poverty and religion. Whether religion offered justification for social injustices and exploitation or offered coping strategies for enduring economic hardship, it led mostly to renunciation of material things, conflict with other religions and development of belief systems that emphasized tolerance and acceptance. This is true for Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and other religions to varying degrees. [...] The best example of this is the Bhakti movement with Meera Bai, Ramanuja, Kabir, Chaitanya Prabhu, and many others who attempted to revive certain sectarian beliefs. The Bhakti movement also assisted people in developing the notion of devotion and pleasure so one may overcome cynicism and hardship of the religious wars that was going on at that time. This is not unlike the gospel music developed among the Blacks in the United States that was devotional, entertaining, pleasure-centered but was also a way of coping with slavery. [...] ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Mon Dec 28 19:17:09 1998 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 20:17:09 +0100 Subject: address request, German musicologist Message-ID: <161227039328.23782.9328353338461176270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Anybody having the address to Mr. Manfred Junius, the author of "Die TAlas der Nordindischen Musik"? Regards, Jon. From sandon at CITCOM.NET Tue Dec 29 02:20:49 1998 From: sandon at CITCOM.NET (Don Traxler) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 21:20:49 -0500 Subject: Lalla Message-ID: <161227044278.23782.10792910712118491822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is anyone working on the sayings of Lalla (Lal Ded, Lalleshwari), the fourteenth century mystic and poet of Kashmir? I am aware that a similar question was asked by another subscriber to this list a couple of years ago, but would like an update. Also, is anyone working on old Kashmiri? Thanks in advance. Donald Traxler yav? t?:r tsali tim ambar hyaty, bvachi yav? tsali tim a:ha:r ann | tsyat? svapar svavyatsa:ras pyat?, tsyata: dihas va:n kya: van || --Lalleshvari Wear only enough clothes to keep away the cold, Eat only enough food to banish hunger. Contemplate your own self in meditation, O mind, give this advice to the body. --Lalla (Lal Ded), 14th Century Poet and Mystic of Kashmir From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 29 02:48:44 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 21:48:44 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044281.23782.10301930193378822947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/28/98 4:06:29 PM Central Standard Time, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: > Conditions prevailing in the "potter's compound" stand in sharp contrast > with the epithet/title the narrator gives to its owner. The situation from > Bakavadhaparvan undergoes a specific transformation here: 'deserving guests > and deserving host' become 'deserving guests and undeserving host'.... > > ... The narrator leaves > several clues ("winks") that should be sufficient to establish the real > status of the "BhrRguid": he is a potter, who - although unable to receive > guests - would like to be considered as belonging to the priestly line of > the descendants of BhRgu. I do not know why potters should be considered "undeserving hosts". J. A. Schoterman says, "Being the offspring of an illicit union of a Brahmin and a Vaizya-female (Kane II-1: 78) they are regarded as bhojyAnnas, i.e., food prepared by them could be paratken by Brahmins (Kane II-1:122)".(SaTsAhasra saMhitA, p. 8) Note however that the marriage is still anuloma. There is also another origin given for the potters. Monier Williams gives the meaning of kumbhakAra, as "a potter (being according to some authorities the son of a brAhman by a wife of the kSatriya caste) yAjJ5. iii , 146 MBh. &c. Compare this with "Gods, Priests, and Warriors: The Bhrgus of the Mahabharata", in which Robert Goldman says the following, "The sages descended from Cyavana are further remarkable for the fact that, despite the tension between them and the warrior class, they almost unanimously take kSatriya wives.....The tendency to marry nonbrahmans is not restricted to the line of Cyavana. In fact it is difficult to find a single case in the literature of any bhRgu marrying a brahman." (pp. 97-99) The parallel between the kumbhakAra definition and the bhRgu tradition is striking. Even if one concedes that the bhArgava author/s of the svayamvaraparvan were mocking the pretensions of the potters, consider the following. In The Book of the Kindred Sayings", part III, p. 101, venerable Vakkali was staying in a potter's shed and Buddha visits him there. Rhys Davids in the Commentator's introduction to "Psalms of the Early Buddhists: I-Psalms of the Sisters", p. 4, writes, "Mounting his horse Kanthaka, and with Channa as his companion, at midnight, though the gate set open by spirits, he went forth on the Great Renunciation. During the remainder of that night he traversed three kingdoms, and coming to the bank of the river anomA, and taking the outward marks of an arahant, brought to him by the brahmA-god ghaTikAra, he left the world. Thereupon, as though he were already an Elder with the eight requisites, comely in appearance and of graceful deportment, he came in due course to rAjagaha, and there going round for alms, he ate his meal in the cave of Mount paNDava. There the king of magadha offered him his kingdom. but he, refusing it, went to bhaggava's hermitage and learnt his system; thence to ALAra and uddaka and learnt their systems." Compare this story with the one in ghaTikArasutta. kikI, the king of kAzi has invited Lord Kassapa to his rains-residence in Benares. But Kassapa refuses. The majjhima nikAya text translated by I. B. Horner reads, "Then, Ananda, kikI, the king of kAzi thought: 'The Lord Kassapa [51]... does not consent to (accept) my rains-residence in Benares, ' and he was depressed and grieved. Then Ananda, kikI, the king of kAzi, spoke thus to the Lord Kassapa...: 'Then, have you, revered sir, some other supporter than me?' 'There is, sire, a village township called vebhaLiGga. There is a potter there called ghaTikAra; he is my supporter-the chief supporter." After describing the potter's qualities, Kassapa continues, "At one time I, sire, was staying in the village township of vebhaLiGga. Then I, sire, having dressed in the morning, taking my bowl and robe, approached the parents of the potter ghaTikAra; having approached, I spoke thus to the parents of the potter ghaTikAra: "Now where has this potter [bhaggava] gone?" "Revered sir, your supporter has gone out, saying:Now, having taken conjey from the pot, having taken curry from the cauldron, enjoy them." Then I, sire, having taken conjey from the pot, having taken curry from the cauldron, enjoyed them, and rising up from my seat I departed." I do not know why the use of bhaggava in this story should be taken as ironic. In fact, according to Horner's footnote, bhaggava seems to have been a generic name for all potters. According to PED bhArgava in the sense of potters occurs also in other texts such as mahAvAstu. On the other hand, I think what the mahAbhArata story reveals is a rare glimpse of what the society really had been instead of what the brahminic authors usually wanted it to be. It will be a mistake to rely on the status of castes as propounded by brahmanic law-givers. The far-reaching ramifications of a similar misguided adoption of brahmanic law by the British as the basis for the establishment of Indian legal system is discussed in the chapter "The Modernity of Brahmanic Law" in the book "The Modernity of Tradition" by Lloyd I. Rudolph and Susanne H. Rudolph. According to the Rudolphs, Mayne, the author of "A Treatise on Hindu Law and Usage", criticized those judges and pandits who "seem to imagine that those rules which govern civil rights among Hindus, which we roughly speak of as Hindu law, are solely of Brahmanic origin." They admit that conflicting customs exist and must be respected; but he emphasized, "these are looked on as local violations of a law which is of general obligation, and which ought to be universally observed; as something to be checked and put down, if possible, and to be apologized for, if the existence of the usage is proved beyond doubt". I would like to know why the BrahmA-god who brings to Buddha the outward marks of an arhant is called ghaTikAra. Regards S. Palaniappan From hart at POLBOX.COM Mon Dec 28 22:01:36 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 23:01:36 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044271.23782.15634385581214945997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:03 21.12.98 +0100, Georg von Simson wrote: >Artur Karp wrote> >>It's clear that heroic epithets cannot be always treated literally. Their >>character points oftentimes to a conscious use of irony - especially if >>they are found out of heroic context. Whenever such accents are lost in the >>process of translation, we as the readers cannot see the narrator giving us >>the wink - as if telling us: "look, these are pretensions, appearances, >>disguises - but this here is reality".>> >I doubt very much that this is a valid method of interpreting the text of >the Mahabharata. Irony is a rhetorical device, and we may expect to find it >sometimes in the dialogues, which are often of a polemical character. But >does the narrator himself ever use irony in the narrative parts of the >story? Please give convincing examples! Heroic epithets out of context can >be explained as a feature of the formulaic style of (originally) oral >composition and not as examples of irony, I would say.> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed, . However, the narrative parts themselves are embedded in a much larger dialogical structure. (On embedding as a narrative technique employed throughout the epic cf. C. Z. Minkowski, Janamejaya's Sattra and Ritual Structure, JAOS, 109.3 (1989), pp. 401-420.) >But does the narrator himself ever use irony in the narrative parts of the story> The successive narrators (Ugrazravas, VaizampAyana, SaMjaya) converse with their listeners - who may become narrators of stories in their turn - and, simultaneously, with other audiences, inside and outside the epic. Considering that this is so, it would have been at the very least surprising if traces of irony weren't to be found also in the narrative parts of the epic. Whether it is expressed directly or indirectly, the signs of awareness of the distance between appearances and reality are not so hard to come by. >Please give convincing examples!> In each of the two examples I have selected irony is expressed directly, using the means available within smaller narrative units, and indirectly - via the relationship of the given episode with a similar episode contained in a larger narrative whole. This is in line with what I feel constitutes the basic rule for the reception of the epic as a closed text. For the external audiences (and I count myself among them) the Mahabharata is attractive not because it shows the dynamics of literary-creative processes, but because its contents can be related to their life experience. In order to establish that connection all the elements of the text (from words to episodes to groups of episodes) are constantly checked for their ability to carry meaningful information. Of course, meaningfulness is a time- and place-specific concept. Which means there will always be many different ways of interpreting the text of the Mbh. I.158.4, 12, 28-31. The PANDdavas interrupt a spiteful [IrSyuH] gandharva named AGgAraparNa ('He of red wings') while he is sporting in the waters of the Ganges with his wives. The gandharva enters into a heroic fight with Arjuna but loses it. His wife implores YudhiSThira to spare her husband's life. Her name is KumbhInasI ('She of jar-like nose'). As I see it, irony is related here to the opposition "heroic epithet vs. wife's name", that is - "pretensions vs. reality". The narrator explores in this case the well-known epic theme of "dangerous interruption". However, by placing in it an undeserving personage, he produces the outcome that is very different from what could be expected. [Aren't we here only one step away from the transformation of such relativized mythological themes into the class of popular funny tales with heroes presenting excessive expectations, such as for example the "Tale of Two-headed Weaver" from the Panchatantra?] I.3.52-55. Ayoda Dhaumya sends his disciple Upamanyu out to tend the cows but forbids him to eat any kind of food. Upamanyu doesn't return, because he has fallen into a pit [narrator: kUpe 'patat]. The teacher says to his other disciples: "he must be angered" [sa niyataM kupitaH], using a heroic epithet. But instead of being wrathful (kupita), as could have been expected by the disciples, Upamanyu shows humility and behaves just like someone who "must have fallen into a pit" (kupita = kUpe patita). While using a heroic epithet (cf. wrathful BhRgu in I.6.9, wrathful serpents in I.119.36, wrathful brahmins in II.72.20 and III.110.24, and so on) to build this interesting word play, the narrator treats it without reverence. I would add - with irony. Let's now look again at the episode in which the "potter's house" appears. But this time we should consider it together with a slightly earlier episode. Both the episodes are built on the epic theme of "the hero's taking abode in someone's house". In the Bakavadhaparvan the PANDavas are hosted by a brahmin. The text has brAhmaNasya nivezane I.144.18, brAhmaNasya nivezane 145.2, brAhmaNasya nivezane 145.9, brAhmaNasya nivezane 145.12, viprasya bhavane 150.13, brAhmaNavezma 152.7, brAhmaNasya nivezane 153.2, vezma brAhmaNasya 153.3, brAhmaNasya nivezane 156.3. Out of the nine mentions of the house, its owner is named eight times brAhmaNa, once vipra. The house itself is called six times nivezana, twice vezma and once bhavana. Although this repertoire of formulaic terms is rather poor (neither the name nor the gotra of the brahmin are given), the relations between the PANDavas and their host seem to be far from casual. KuntI wishes to repay the brahmin for his hospitality 145.13; BhIma wants to know the reason of the brahmin's misfortune 145.16; KuntI enters the brahmin's antaHpura 145.18, KuntI questions the brahmin 148.1; KuntI promises to send one of her sons to fight Baka 149.3; the brahmin reminds KuntI of the duties hosts have towards their guests 149.10; KuntI and the brahmin ask Bhima to act 149.20; YudhiSThira asks KuntI to disclose the secret of the PANDavas disguise to the brahmin 150.27; the brahmin guards the secret of the PANDavas 152.13; the PANDavas take their leave of the brahmin 156.11. The SvayaMvaraparvan paints a totally different picture. The text doesn't offer even one instance of contacts between the PANDavas and their host. They have to sleep on the ground (bhUmau zayanaM 184.8; suSupurdharaNyAm 184.8; azeta bhUmau 184.10; pRthivyAM zayanam ca teSAm 185.10). It's not so very strange, if the place where they stay is seen for what it really is - not a house but rather a potter's work-compound located outside the town (bAhyAM purAdbhArgavakarmazAlAM, 185.6). Conditions prevailing in the "potter's compound" stand in sharp contrast with the epithet/title the narrator gives to its owner. The situation from Bakavadhaparvan undergoes a specific transformation here: 'deserving guests and deserving host' become 'deserving guests and undeserving host'. It seems then that similarly to the themes of "dangerous interruption" and "wrathful brahmin", also the theme of "the hero's taking abode in someone's house" was used from time to time without respect, to present an ironic view of the reality. With a big inventory of formulas and formulaic models at their disposal, the Indian epic makers seem to have had a freedom of choice from among many synonyms and shades of meaning and could insert practically anything they needed in any given (metrical) position (cf. P.A. Grintser, Drevneindijskij epos. Genezis i tipologija, Moskva 1974, p. 70). It is highly probable then that the choice of the title was not left to chance. The narrator leaves several clues ("winks") that should be sufficient to establish the real status of the "BhrRguid": he is a potter, who - although unable to receive guests - would like to be considered as belonging to the priestly line of the descendants of BhRgu. I would end this rather over-long and over-due posting with a nice example of mistaken identities, where nothing agrees with anything - just like in the BhRguid's case, when the meaning of the title is taken literally. In SuvaNNakakkaTaka-jAtaka a crow is caught by the neck by a golden crab. But thinking it to be the golden deer, he cries out: "What a strange deer! With eyes on antennae! Has bone instead of skin! And it lives in water! And is bald!" Best regards, Artur Karp ------------------ [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Popieraj tansze rozmowy - kup zestaw POP dzialajacy w sieci IDEA Promocyjna sprzedaz w naszym sklepie internetowym: http://sklep.centertel.pl ---------------------------------------------------------------- From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 29 04:35:58 1998 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 23:35:58 -0500 Subject: request for reading literature. In-Reply-To: <01BE3260.5C2DB0A0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044243.23782.7011525084221625549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nothing whatsoever one has heard of. Sometimes the race memories exist in the form of legnds.myths,folk tales etc.In the present subject no such thing exists.It all makes one to wonder whether it is apiece of fiction that theancestors of present day inhabitants were driven south by the onslaught of aryans.Nevertheless i would read any authentic account if it exists. Krish. On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Dear Members, > > Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture that talks > of the flight from the North to the South after the "Aryan invasion". I > would appreciate if someone could direct me to the oldest such surviving > scripture. > > Thanks > Ashish > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 29 09:06:26 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 04:06:26 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044298.23782.17484416389202175063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In responding to my personal message with my suggestion on dhuUmrasagotra, Dr. G.v. Simson wrote that that there might be more behind this peculiar name dhUmrasagotra than he (together with Bareau and others) thought. He also asked the following. "What about (black)smiths? Do not they too play a role that has been underrated? (In spite of Walter Ruben's "Eisenschmiede und Daemonen", 1939). The Buddha - since we were talking about his last days - has his last meal with the smith (kammAraputta/karmAraputra) Cunda." I have given this question considerable thought. Based on the semantics of the etymology, there is a straight equivalence between vELAn2 and bhRgu (and similarly between kuyavan2 and dhUmrasagotra). The words for smiths in Dravidian and IA do not suggest a similar relationship. But there is something very interesting when one looks at the products made by these artisans. Each one of the following -- pot/vessel, jewelry, ship/boat, weapon, inscribed palm-leaf -- can be indicated by the word kalam in Tamil. Often kalam is used in conjunction with a modifier such as aNikalam (jewelry/ornament), marakkalam (ship/boat made of wood), paTaikkalam (battle weapons such as a spear). Depending on the context, the modifier aNi, maram, and paTai can be done away with. For instance the word for lighthouse in Tamil is kalaGkarai viLakkam based on kalam -boat/ship, karai-shore and viLakkam-light. (One can see why droNa came to be used for non-wood vessels/boats as well.) DEDR does not list all the possible meanings of Ta. kalam as listed in the Tamil Lexicon. These usages go back to Classical Tamil and Tolkappiyam. The use of the same word to represent the products of potter, carpenter, blacksmith, bronze/gold smith, and scribe is very interesting indeed. In fact, we get some fundamental insight into Indian culture if we investigate the etymology of kalam. According to DEDR 1305 Ta. kalam vessel, plate, utensil, earthernware, ship ?Br. kalanD broken earthen pot, any old pot. ? Cf. 1301 Ta. kallai./Cf. Skt. kalA- boat; ? kalaza- pot. According to Kuiper, etymologically, kalaza is of Dravidian origin. (See Kuiper, Aryans in the Rig Veda, p. 14.) DEDR 1301 Ta. kallai plate made of leaves sewn together .Malt. kale leaf-cup. ? Cf. 1305 Ta. kalam. /Cf. Pkt. (Sheth, suppl.) khallaga-, khallaya- leaf-cup. (One can see how the use of droNa is synonymous with kalam in being used as equivalent to a pot, boat, leaf-cup, etc.) It looks like kalam was, in general, a product of any art/craft such as pottery, carpentry, smithy or writing. It seems to be derived from the root kal-. According to DEDR 1297 Ta. kal (kaRp-, kaRR-) to learn, study, practice (as arts), acquire skill in the use of arms; kalai arts, sciences, learning, erudition; /Cf. Skt. kalA-an art. What is interesting is that the scribe/accountants par excellence as seen in the Tamil inscriptions have been potters. (And other artisans did the actual inscribing on stone or copper plate.) Moreover, since kalaza is of RV usage, one can see how early the Dravidian artisans' interaction with the Aryan culture had been. kalaza occurs even in hymns (3.32.15, 4.32.19, 6.69.2, and 6.69.6) in the books considered among the oldest of RV books. (These hymns are not included in the late hymns listed by Witzel in "Rgvedic history: poets, chieftains and polities" chapter in "The Indo-Aryans of South Asia".) According to MMW dictionary, kalazayoni can refer to agastya (kAdambarI) and droNa (harSacarita). kalaza is equal to a measure called droNa. In an earlier post, I mentioned the equivalent use of kumbha and droNa. Thus kumbha, kalaza, and droNa can be used synonymously. In this context, one can see how "kalam" referring to palm-leaf texts can be associated with an educational institution/college teaching "kalai". Of course "kalam" also could mean pot. But IA does not have such a concept linking pots and a college for brahmins. In South Indian inscriptions of Kadamba and Pallava kings (kacAkkuti plates of Nandivarman Pallavamallan, vElUrppalayam plates of Nandivarman II, etc.), we find the use of the word "ghaTikA" in the sense of college for brahmins. We find also the royal officials called tiruvAykkELvi who transcribed oral orders onto palm leaves were given the titles kaTikai mArAyan2 (ghaTikA maharAjan). Thus we find that IA words were created by translating Dravidian words. While I have not researched the heritage of other artisans as much as that of the potters, I am on firmer ground when it comes to potters and brahmins. My analysis of the words suggest, that the culture of pre-Vedic Dravidian culture was not hierarchical as the tri-partite Aryan culture was supposed to be. The semantics of the word vEL signifying priests, warriors, and potters suggests this. (On the other hand according to the IA system, each of these would have had to belong to a separate class.) The earliest technologists of the early Dravidian culture might have been potters who were also priests. (Probably other artisans developed out of this group later on.) A section of these native potter-priest-warriors must have adopted the IA culture very early. These became the bhRgus, etc. The entry into brahminhood must have been going on even after Vedic period. These acculturated potter-brahmin-warrior Dravidians must have adopted the tri-partite Aryan class system (later expanded to four classes) and manufactured enough textual "evidence" that they succeeded in elevating themselves above the rest of their original cohorts! Depending on what archaeology and Vedic scholarship conclude, the number of immigrant Aryan priests must have been far fewer compared to the recruits from the native potter-priest-warrior community. In his article, "Genesis of Rgvedic Retroflexion: A Historical and Sociolinguistic Investigation", M. M. Deshpande says (p.260), "Already in the brAhmaNa texts, we hear of dark- complexioned brahmins proving themselves academically superior to the fair- complexioned brahmins (Chatterji 1962:69-70)." He also wonders if the descendants of the original Aryans were numerically not a minority in this mixed Aryanized society (p. 297). Michael Witzel in his article "Rgvedic history: poets, chieftains and polities" says, "The idea of a cataclismic invasion has, in fact, been given up long ago by Vedic scholars - the view that "Aryan hordes" sacked the cities of the Harappans (Wheeler 1946 etc.), in particular, has found few takers lately. What is not yet clear is how the process of immigration actually took place. As suggested in my previous paper (Chapter 4), even a limited number of Indo-Aryan speakers could have triggered a process of acculturation, especially if they enjoyed a dominant social position due to their superior (military) technology." If a considerable portion of Kannada-speaking area could become Marathi-speaking area in historical times, there is no reason why Dravidian-speaking areas could not have become IA-speaking areas in Vedic times. They must have coined new words translating Dravidian concepts into Indo-Aryan forms, such as pAvai/tanU. Two years ago, I started with the view that the Vedas and early brahminic texts were the products of descendants of Aryan immigrants who were ethnically different from the Dravidians. What I have discovered in the last two years leaves no other option but to support the theory that, by and large, the IA linguistic culture in India even from Vedic times must have been the product of mainly acculturated Dravidians (based on etymology of words for important concepts such as image worship, text, etc.) and possibly others to a lesser extent. Specifically, it was the Dravidian potter-priest-warriors who must have played a critical role in the Aryanization process. In his article on Rgvedic retroflexion, Deshpande quotes Dandekar as saying "In the long and continual history of Hinduism, the age of the Veda must be said to have occurred more or less as an interlude." It was a very important interlude linguistically, but in terms of many cultural attributes, the pre- Vedic traits seem to have held their own quite successfully. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 29 14:29:12 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 06:29:12 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044303.23782.1096846257548146144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< So what we often have to deal with in discussions on the Internet is not only a Hindu problem. Even though scholars had already accepted historical thinking, fundamentalist Christians in the US a hundred years ago used arguments very similar to those which their Hindu counterparts brandish today. Even if it is true that traditional India has an unhistorical / antihistorical tendency (cf. also Hajime Nakamura, _Ways of Thinking of Eastern Peoples_), the attitude that says we should pick up an old text, ardently believe in it and construct the whole of history on that text is not exclusively Hindu. But percentagewise, it seems more a Hindu problem today than, e.g., a Muslim or Christian one. >>> I quite agree with you, Dr. Zydenbos. Sincerely N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 29 14:57:20 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 06:57:20 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044305.23782.1869419210866568662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< And if bhakti could be traced to the practices which are described in ancient Jaina and Buddhist sources, then it would also be wrong to think of bhakti as a specifically Tamil phenomenon, even if Tamil authors gave the bhakti movement an impetus. After all, the kind of phenomena which Embree mentions are also found in Prakrit, Sanskrit and Kannada Jaina texts from Karnataka. (And of course definitions of 'bhakti' differ from one religious tradition to another.) >>>> In my little readings on Buddhism, especially Mahayana, I could see bhakti-like phenomenon towards Bodhisattvas/Avalikta. Is a similar process observable in Jain texts of say, 1-5th centuries AD? Of course, within the Hindu religion, Tamil authors made bhakti into a mass movement from 5th centuries AD. This is a major transformation of Hinduism. Nowadays, Hinduism is mostly bhakti. Quite an achievement. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 29 15:15:07 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 07:15:07 -0800 Subject: do you receive this message as an attachment? Message-ID: <161227044313.23782.12548468874423304263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I get your message as attachment. Yours n. ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 29 12:52:19 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 07:52:19 -0500 Subject: Hindu traditional view In-Reply-To: <36886530.885CE72B@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044300.23782.3692145257024673825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Comments on Hindu traditional views ----------------------------------- Any assertion that a Hindu traditional view is akin to a fundamentalist Christian view is wrong. I have lived half of my life in India and half in west and the following is my observation. No Hindu believes that God is a man and hence no one believes that there is a time scale for the creation. Creation is an unseen God's will and manifests itself with various life forms, which are incarnations of God. God resides in everyone's heart and (in an elitist way) permeates everywhere. The underlying principle always is God is much larger and hugely unquantifiable object and hence it's best left to inner realization and spiritual visualization. Icons, dieties come into play and they become symbols towards the journey in discovering God. While the above might sound philosophical, an illiterate Hindu unserstands the concept and humbly accepts the largeness of the universe and God. It's not clear to me how the average person accepts the oneness of the universe, which seems to be a very difficult concept intellectually and scientifically. History and terrestrial lives become a speck in this large canvas and a concepts of rebirth and reincarnation kick in to maintain a continuity. Hindus buy this easily and that gives them a sense of discipline against disorder and immorality (as much as humanly sustainable) and the necessary recourse to punishments and inferior births. Amidst these are statements like "God lived here", "God spoke the following", "God, help the nation" and these have been profitably used by preachers to create a faith and initiate a cult. Once God's dwelling is curtailed, the cultists would favor their dwelling against others' and these have been viewed by modern historians as new traditions. It's my firm belief that an average Hindu is more philosophical than a cultist. In this sense, the average Hindu does not follow a religion, but follows a set of practices that the family inherits and posseses a deep inner sense of divinity towards a mystic and cosmic creator. The above is definitely at odds with any christian view on creation and invoke a sense of time-bound history to the happenings in the universe. It's not clear to me how the illogical time scales have been literally used by Christian preachers to create a sense of awe among people. My only speculation is that any missionary activity has to show a sense of imminence and long time scales don't help in creating an urgency. I have not researched this well to appreciate the motivation. This discussion is not for people who would create a Hindu supremacy through political force or using national chaunvinism. An average Hindu never believed in superiority and still does not. Some people use the religion to create a small local profit and that is more in the realm of sociology and economics. Such efforts are not new, neither are they confined to any country. The beauty is that a large fraction of human population philosophically appreciates the largeness and eternity of consciousness and this fraction seems to be growing. The further beauty is that it happens in spite of the cults to throttle it. Happy New Year to all of you.. Bijoy Misra Cambridge, MA. On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > N. Ganesan wrote: > > <<< > > I believe I have read somewhere, I think it was in introduction to > > Sankara's Gita Bhashya (I am not sure of the translator - Swami > > Panavananda > > ???) that the BG is placed as far back as 3102 BC which was the date for > > the Mahabharata war and the beginning of Kali Yuga. ... > > >>> > > > > Just reading Eric Wolf's People without History. > > When the chronological thinking came to India, > > first from Muslims, and then Europeans, Hindus > > have a problem. > > I have a book titled "Universal History", written by an American lady > savant in the 1870s. There she writes that although there are some > strange people who claim that the earth is millions of years old, we can > safely dismiss such speculations as deranged and evil, since the Bible > clearly says that the world was created in 6006 BC and there are no > solid reasons why we should think otherwise. > > So what we often have to deal with in discussions on the Internet is not > only a Hindu problem. Even though scholars had already accepted > historical thinking, fundamentalist Christians in the US a hundred years > ago used arguments very similar to those which their Hindu counterparts > brandish today. > > Even if it is true that traditional India has an unhistorical / > antihistorical tendency (cf. also Hajime Nakamura, _Ways of Thinking of > Eastern Peoples_), the attitude that says we should pick up an old text, > ardently believe in it and construct the whole of history on that text > is not exclusively Hindu. But percentagewise, it seems more a Hindu > problem today than, e.g., a Muslim or Christian one. > > Perhaps it would be a nice study to find out relative differences in > historical / chronological consciousness between various Hindu > traditions. E.g., it seems that in Karnataka Maadhvas seem relatively > more historically conscious than Smaartas, which could be due to the > Maadhva belief that the world is real, whereas for Advaitins it is all > maayaa and hence does not really matter. > > -- > > Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Mysore (India) > e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 29 15:52:48 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 07:52:48 -0800 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044316.23782.5105648034641373634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K.V. Zvelebil's _Dravidian Linguistics: An Introduction_, 1990 "Dravidian speakers came from the West by the _same_ route or at the _same_ time. Some may have come through Afghanistan via the mountain passes and river valleys; others may have come along the coast, possibly even by sea." (p. 47). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Does this have anything to do with David McAlpin's Elam - Brahui - South Dravidian theory. Recently, Mr. Karp informed of Prof. J. Braun's work on the relations between Elamite and Dravidian. Interestingly, Tamils in Sri Lanka are called Elamites! (Eelam). (cf. Sangam Tamil texts). ----------- Dravidians could have reached South India and Ceylon in very early times by Sea voyages. This is corroborated atleast in historical times. For example, expansion from South India into Southeast Asia, SaatavAhanas, Pallavas, Cholas, ... This shows seafaring abilities of Dravidians. Tamil inscriptions have been found in Egypt (last 3-4 years old article, JAOS), China (Southern coast, found in 1956), Malaysia and Indonesia. Any compreshensive studies on Tamil inscriptions found outside of India. Any pointers are highly appreciated. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 29 05:14:24 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 10:44:24 +0530 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044286.23782.12435719762597500352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > <<< > I believe I have read somewhere, I think it was in introduction to > Sankara's Gita Bhashya (I am not sure of the translator - Swami > Panavananda > ???) that the BG is placed as far back as 3102 BC which was the date for > the Mahabharata war and the beginning of Kali Yuga. ... > >>> > > Just reading Eric Wolf's People without History. > When the chronological thinking came to India, > first from Muslims, and then Europeans, Hindus > have a problem. I have a book titled "Universal History", written by an American lady savant in the 1870s. There she writes that although there are some strange people who claim that the earth is millions of years old, we can safely dismiss such speculations as deranged and evil, since the Bible clearly says that the world was created in 6006 BC and there are no solid reasons why we should think otherwise. So what we often have to deal with in discussions on the Internet is not only a Hindu problem. Even though scholars had already accepted historical thinking, fundamentalist Christians in the US a hundred years ago used arguments very similar to those which their Hindu counterparts brandish today. Even if it is true that traditional India has an unhistorical / antihistorical tendency (cf. also Hajime Nakamura, _Ways of Thinking of Eastern Peoples_), the attitude that says we should pick up an old text, ardently believe in it and construct the whole of history on that text is not exclusively Hindu. But percentagewise, it seems more a Hindu problem today than, e.g., a Muslim or Christian one. Perhaps it would be a nice study to find out relative differences in historical / chronological consciousness between various Hindu traditions. E.g., it seems that in Karnataka Maadhvas seem relatively more historically conscious than Smaartas, which could be due to the Maadhva belief that the world is real, whereas for Advaitins it is all maayaa and hence does not really matter. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Dec 29 20:57:56 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 10:57:56 -1000 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <36886530.885CE72B@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044324.23782.16257808289955675095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Eastern Peoples_), the attitude that says we should pick up an old text, > ardently believe in it and construct the whole of history on that text > is not exclusively Hindu. But percentagewise, it seems more a Hindu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > problem today than, e.g., a Muslim or Christian one. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'd be interested to know why you make this observation, because it is the exact opposite of my experience. In fact, the Western controversies over evolution, the age of the universe, the non-specialness of human beings, abortion, contraception, etc. are simply not found among Hindus. In my experience, Hindu scriptural literalists are negligible in number. On the other hand, political pseudo-Hinduism (e.g., the BJP) is clearly a problem. But this is not based on literal interpretation of any text. Every Western problem doesn't have to have an exact Indian counterpart... Regards, and best wishes for a happy new year, Raja (a proud "pseudo-secularist"). From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 29 05:46:10 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 11:16:10 +0530 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044289.23782.8021996077350566263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashish Chandra wrote: > Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture that talks > of the flight from the North to the South after the "Aryan invasion". I > would appreciate if someone could direct me to the oldest such surviving > scripture. This would presume that Tamil and other Dravidian speakers had all been driven southwards by the invaders / migrants. In K.V. Zvelebil's _Dravidian Linguistics: An Introduction_ (Pondicherry: Pondicherry Institute of Linguistics and Culture, 1990), we read: "Linguistic evidence gathered so far strongly suggests that the present locations of Dravidian languages result from a number of _distinct movements,_ involving a number of groups of speakers. We have no reason to assume that all of the Dravidian speakers came from the West by the _same_ route or at the _same_ time. Some may have come through Afghanistan via the mountain passes and river valleys; others may have come along the coast, possibly even by sea." (p. 47). He also quotes himself, from an earlier work: "The Dravidians were a highlander folk, sitting, sometime round 4000 B.C., in the rugged mountainous areas of North-Eastern Iran... whence, round about 3500 B.C., they began a South-Eastern movement into the Indian sub-continent which went on for about two and a half millenia. 'Along the route', various Dravidian speaking tribes 'peeled off' the main stock, the first to come off being the peoples speaking some form of North-Western Dravidian, who might have played an important, even a leading role in the ethnolinguistic composition of the Indus Valley peoples. The movement went on, and with it the 'losses along the route', until the Southernmost part of the peninsula was reached by the Proto-Tamils, who established, between ca. 600-400 B.C., the first historically recognizable literate and highly cultured Dravidian-speaking civilization." (p. 48). (From his article "The Descent of the Dravidians", IJDL 1 (1972), 2.57-63.) So the presumption of Tamilians and others being driven southwards by invaders should not be taken for granted. And so we need not expect any 'scripture' describing this. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 29 06:08:24 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 11:38:24 +0530 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044291.23782.18197471681847267921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > A ChOzha king's descendent is called ChoDaganga Deva in Kalinga. > > Is chOzha > choDa something related to tamizh > dramiDa? This could very well be, if you are referring to something written in Sanskrit. The retroflex voiced fricative _l (also written "zh", etc.) has become the retroflex lateral in modern Kannada and also in some Tamil dialects. The retroflex lateral was given up in Sanskrit a very long time ago and replaced by retroflex ".d". -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 29 06:33:05 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 12:03:05 +0530 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044294.23782.14387716233853148703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > *Which early bhakti phenomena in Jainism do you have in mind? > > Actually, I have not read anything on Jainism yet. > Suggestions for me please. I have written on this in my _The Concept of Divinity in Jainism_ (Toronto: Univ. of Toronto, 1993), in connection with Jaina yak.sa worship, which is quite ancient (see particularly pp. 19-27). > Ainslie T. Embree, Encyclopaedia of Asian history, 1988 > Bhakti, p. 154 > --------------- > "Early Bhakti: The ancient roots of Vedic practice are easy to > establish, since the relevant texts have been preserved. Equally > ancient bhakti texts do not exist, but it would be a mistake to > conclude that the emphases of bhakti religion are on that account > more recent in their origins. When non-Vedic religion does begin > to leave its traces - in early Buddhist and Jain texts - much of > it sounds like bhakti. In these texts one hears of such > characteristic bhakti practices as the enthusiastic offering of > flowers and perfumes; the love of music, singing, and dancing; > the veneration of particularly sanctified places. The divinities > who are the objects of worship change over time, from the spirits > and snakes whose images dominate the earliest Hindu sculptures ..." > Seeing all the support for heretic religions and the eventual > result that they will lose the mass following, the Hindu priests > devised a process, that allowed popular emotional outpourings in the > peoples' native language. This process, known as > bhakti mass movement, first gets going in the Tamil South and > spreads northward. I doubt whether it is simply a cynical matter of priests wanting to consolidate their grip on the lay populace. If bhakti in essence was already so old, there would no question of 'losing' a following, since any adherence to brahminical Hinduism would have to be seen as a relatively later development and a gain. It looks much more like a slow, gradual process of cultural interpenetration, a kind of osmosis. And if bhakti could be traced to the practices which are described in ancient Jaina and Buddhist sources, then it would also be wrong to think of bhakti as a specifically Tamil phenomenon, even if Tamil authors gave the bhakti movement an impetus. After all, the kind of phenomena which Embree mentions are also found in Prakrit, Sanskrit and Kannada Jaina texts from Karnataka. (And of course definitions of 'bhakti' differ from one religious tradition to another.) -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 29 20:46:47 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 12:46:47 -0800 Subject: ghaTikA as college Message-ID: <161227044321.23782.16521691461403462261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> kalA, the Sanskrit word for "arts/learning" comes from Dravidian word, "kal-", to learn, to dig deeper, ... (cf. DED) Always thought that kalA from Dravidian will have a wider significance in Indian protohistory. "kalam" - a vessel, pot would have been coined from "kal-", (to learn). After all, one of the major advances of humankind is to learn to make pottery. This "kalam" from the root 'to learn', is specically used in Tamil as "inscribed palm-leaf" also. This specific usage could easily be extended to a "school", because it has to do with "kal-", (to learn). Sanskrit authors translated the Dravidian "kalam" meaning school as "ghaTikA" perhaps mistakenly. But "kalam" in Dravidian means "school", rather than "vessel" in this context. Otherwise, how else one would explain the term, ghaTikA "vessel/water clock" for "school"? In Tamil, kalam means both vessel and palmleaf manuscript. Any instances in early Tamil literature where "kalam" is used as inscribed palm-leaf? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Tue Dec 29 15:01:04 1998 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 16:01:04 +0100 Subject: do you receive this message as an attachment? Message-ID: <161227044309.23782.8764353660360065520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sorry for wasting the band width, but I would like to know if other subscribers also receive my posts "as attachments". If you do, please forward the entire message to: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de I checked the Indology list archives and there I don't see my message as "an attachment", nor the copy (of my own posting) I received. I am puzzled ... Regards, --Sreenivas > Please don't send your posts as attachments. We can't read it. > Thanks, n. ganesan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 29 21:19:43 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 16:19:43 -0500 Subject: ghaTikA as college Message-ID: <161227044326.23782.16346221339971072469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/29/98 2:47:44 PM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Any instances in early Tamil literature where "kalam" is > used as inscribed palm-leaf? tolkAppiyam collatikAram 80 dealing with ARAm vERRumai has the following line ... karuviyin2 tuNaiyin2 kalattin2 mutalin2 ...... Commentator cEn2Avaraiyar gives examples by saying "nilattatoRRik kalam cAttan2atu vilaittITTu en2pan2a kalak kizamai." Regards S. Palaniappan From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Tue Dec 29 16:02:11 1998 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 18:02:11 +0200 Subject: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044319.23782.214358279437002254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Partha Op zondag, 27-dec-98 schreef Partha Banerjee: PB> I don't understand why you think your beliefs should over ride every one PB> else's. PB> _______ PB> In relation to CS's last line, if I have imposed on anyone's beliefs, I PB> am sorry. Repeated personal snide remarks on me aside, I thought we were PB> only exchanging opinions and debating based on our own convictions. I think you're right: a sensible discussion should be a dialogue and not a battle of monologues. This brings me to the observation that some voices have been rather sloppy in their use of pramANa's (recognised sources of knowledge). It's useless to write to an athe?st or a buddhist 'God exists because it's written in the Veda's', because the Veda's are not a pramANa for such a person. I used the word 'scietific' for this list, because in science there are only two pramANa's: perception and logical proof. There are alos shared by Indian and western philosophy at large. So these are the only pramANa's which everyone on this list should stick to. The use of others like old texts or the smile of a child are no pramANa's which can be supposed to convince ohters on the list and certainly not me (I don't believe in Santa Claus either ;-)). It's not strange to investigate texts about gods without beleiving they exist, the best analysis often come from outside observers. To the critics of logic I would say: logic is nothing but a means of communication. It's the only way we have to get things clear. Any rejection of logic has to use arguments in order to make itself acceptable and is therefore selfcontradictory. So my friends: hold your retorical horses and ENJOY the discussions on the list. Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 30 05:37:34 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 00:37:34 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044334.23782.12980495266560006233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/29/98 6:53:48 PM Central Standard Time, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: > The State was founded by PahAr Singh, one of four Brahman > brothers from GayA Warrior and priestly roles are mixed up here too. Regards S. Palaniappan From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Dec 30 00:48:01 1998 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 01:48:01 +0100 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <5436fec0.36889b92@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227044328.23782.16264603153745147012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan, I do not know all the reactions to your earlier postings, so I am sending mine at the risk of forcing an open door. Consider the following three texts: 1. "The KumhArs give their name to KumhArsain, one of the smaller Simla Hill States. The State was founded by PahAr Singh, one of four Brahman brothers from GayA, who had a pet cat which was killed by a mouse that sprang upon her from beneath one of the 18 potters' wheels than at work at KumhArsain. He complained to Koteshar MahAdeo, who is said to be the owner of the chiefship (gaddi), and the god promised him redress. So all the Kumhars were killed, except a pregnant woman and her descendants still live in the State". [A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Provinces, vol. II, Indian Reprint, Delhi 1970, p. 570] 2. Mbh. I.169. KRtavIrya had the descendants of BhRgu as his priests. He satisfied them with riches [dhanena... tarpayAmAsa vipulena, 12]. When he died his sons were in need of money. They asked the BhArgavas for it, but (some of) the BhArgavas buried their riches [bhUmau... nidadhuH...dhanamakSayam, 15]. One day when one of the kshatriyas was digging the earth in a BhArgava's house, he found the money [mahItalaM... kSatriyeNa... khanatAdhigataM vittaM kenacidbhRguvezmani, 17]. On seeing it, the kshatriyas started exterminating the BhArgavas. All the BhArgavas were killed. Their wiwes escaped into the mountains. One of them carried in her thigh a child of great power and he was to prolong her husband's line [tAsAmanyatamA garbhaM bhayAddadhAra taijasam/ UruNaikena vAmorurbhartuH kulavivRdhaye, 20]. The child was to become RSi Aurva. 3. Panchatantra II.2. An ascetic named BUTakarNa lives in a hut near Shiva's temple [mahezvarAyatanam, 134.26.]. A mouse named HiraNya harasses him in the nights by jumping up to get to the food that he places high up in a pot hanging from the wall [135.1-6]. The ascetic wonders why is it that the mouse can jump higher than cats, monkeys, and so on. His friend BRhatsphij suspects that the mouse must live over a treasure, because it is obviously the heat of the treasure that gives him the power to jump so high up [nUnaM nidhAnasyopari tasya bilam/ nidhanoSmaNa nizcitaM drakkUrdate 'sau, 136.15-16]. Brhatsphij finds HiraNya's hole and digs out the treasure buried under it. HiraNya is deprived of his power and cannot reach the food anymore. When HiraNya tries to regain his treasure, BRhatsphij hits him on the head with a reed. HiraNya somehow manages to escape with his life. [The Panchatantra, A collection of Ancient Hindu Tales, J. Hertel Ed., Harvard 1908, HOS XI, pp. 134-136, 140-147] A bit of textual archaeology - very sketchy at this stage - to show in what way the mouse named HiraNya ("Gold") can provide a clue to what connects the genealogical story of the BhArgavas with the dynastic legend of the rulers of the KumhArsain Gaddi. "BhArgava's Genealogy" - Bh "The Story of the KumhArsain Gaddi" - G "The Story of the Mouse and Two Monks" - M 1. Bh: King KRtavIrya employs the BhArgavas as his priests. 2. Bh: The king pays substantial fees to the BhArgavas. 3. Bh: After the death of the king his heirs find the royal treasure empty. 4. Bh: The heirs of the king go to the BhArgavas and ask them to return the money. 5. Bh: The BhArgavas bury the money in the earth // M: A mouse named HiraNya ("Gold") lives in a hole in an ascetic's hut. 6. Bh: The heirs start searching for the treasure in the BhArgavas' huts // [G: The royal cat enters the KumhArs' compound] 7. G: A mouse springs from beneath one of the wheels at the royal cat // M: The mouse can jump higher than any cat and gets to the ascetic's food. 8. G: The royal cat is killed by the mouse // M: The ascetic's food is spoiled by the mouse. 9. G: The ruler complains to Koteshar MahAdeo // M: The ascetic complains to his friend BRhatsphij // M: The ascetic's hut is in the vicinity of Mahezvara's shrine. 10. G: The ruler is promised redress // M: BRhatsphij explains his friend the reason for HiraNya's extraordinary power and promises to end his problem. 11. Bh: The treasure is found under the floor in the hut of one of the BhArgavas // M: Brhatsphij finds HiraNya's hole and digs out the treasure buried under it. 12. Bh: The BhArgavas ask for pity but to no avail // M: HiraNya is deprived of his power and cannot reach the food anymore. 13. Bh: The heirs of the king start killing the BhArgavas // G: The ruler and his brothers start killing the KumhArs // 14. Bh: All the BhArgavas are killed with reed-made arrows// G: All the KumhArs are killed // M: BRhatsphij hits HiraNya on the head with a reed. 15. Bh: One BhArgava woman stays alive // G: One pregnant KumhAr woman stays alive // M: HiraNya manages to escape with his life. 16. Bh: The BhArgava woman carries a child in her thigh // M: BRhatsphij means "One of big thighs". 17. Bh: A son is born to the BhArgava woman and he will continue the line of her husband // G: The descendants of the KumhAr woman "still live in the State". There is no symmetry in the way the three texts relate with each other. Their comparison does not seem to add anything to M. One element from M could be inserted in the Mbh. story of the BhArgavas' extermination (the treasure might have been discovered thanks to the observation of the behavior of mice), but it's not really necessary. It seems, however, that M is needed if we want to understand why the royal cat was killed by a mouse in the KumhArs' compound. M is definitely related to both G and Bh, but the relation is not always clear. Large parts of Bh and G are identical. If the motif of the hidden treasure from M is added to G, the drama at the KumhArs' compound becomes more comprehensible: the KumHars were exterminated not because they let a mouse to attack the royal pet, but because they may have amassed too much wealth thanks to their prior services to the Gaddi - very possibly as royal priests. It looks like Bh and G are two variants of one multiform. Its heroes would be the BhArgavas/KumhArs. With highest respects, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ------------------ [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Popieraj tansze rozmowy - kup zestaw POP dzialajacy w sieci IDEA Promocyjna sprzedaz w naszym sklepie internetowym: http://sklep.centertel.pl ---------------------------------------------------------------- From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 30 12:27:49 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 07:27:49 -0500 Subject: Hindu traditional view In-Reply-To: <3689FBFD.FE704A69@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044349.23782.17115873873344786616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > Comments on Hindu traditional views > > ----------------------------------- > > Any assertion that a Hindu traditional view is akin to > > a fundamentalist Christian view is wrong. > > I fail to see how anyone can seriously make such a sweeping categorical > statement, esp. when so many examples of the contrary are readily > available. > As I said (or didn't say) my observations are based on extensive travel and interviews with hunderds of people all around India over the decades. I agree that a good sociological study has to be done. What gets written is cursory and is biased to support one view or the other, in the name of the totality. > You may discover at some later time that almost > all of the remainder of your sermon reflects merely one possible > ideological view, at the best, and certainly not 'the' traditional > Hindu way of looking at things. (S. Radhakrishnan set an example for > Advaitin fundamentalism with writings like his _Hindu View of Life_, > which seems just one minority view.) I hope the choice of the word "sermon" was not sarcastic. To some, any contradictory opinion may sound like a sermon. I know this since I say similar stuff to the organizers in the local temple and they would use the word "sermon" to ignore it. Listening itself is an art. >But this will demand a serious and > open-minded study of materials from a variety of traditions, The variety that seems to be a part of scholarly work does not enter the fabric of life. The variety appears to be in religious parctices, but not in the philosophy of life. The latter would not present itself unless one lives with people and understands their intrinsic nature. I am not clear how an illiterate man in a remote area develops this broad intrinsic nature of universality and mysticism. But you discover it by just travelling around the country and meeting ordinary people. > which may > not at all be possible next to your regular astronomical work. For > professional Indologists, it is a full-time occupation. > good point. I try. At least have developed strong fluency in Sanskrit and read Sanskrit literature as time permits. >?From this point, my views are based on original sources than any interpretations. How the literature has been compiled, is another matter and we have to think as we proceed. I might put together a course on Sankhya and astronomy. I have been teaching in a local Indian cultural school for the last fifteen years, and am trying to put together a book. More on this as I make more progress. > Anyhow, I too wish a > > > Happy New Year to all of you.. > > in which ideologies may recede into the background and the full, rich > diversity and richness of, and truth about, India may receive greater > attention. > I can't agree more.. On a more personal note, St Paul's Cathedral in Boston does a midnight interfaith service on the New Year's Eve and somehow, I was recruited two years ago to recite sections of Hindu scriptures. I have to prepare a 5 minute recitation. I will like people to recommend any favorites. I had chosen the last hymn of Rkveda in 1996 and the nasadiya sukta in 1997. I wish to give another try on the vedas this year. You may post it here or send me private mail. Thank you and all the best in 1999.. - Bijoy Misra. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Dec 30 13:52:38 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 08:52:38 -0500 Subject: from SARAI: South Asia Postdoc announcement Message-ID: <161227044352.23782.5054055492503350839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following POSTDOCTORAL FELLOWSHIP announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the JOB POSTINGS section of SARAI (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai). >>Please contact announcers directly for any further information.<< David Magier ====================================================================== PLEASE FORWARD THIS ANNOUNCEMENT TO APPOPRIATE CANDIDATES Bryn Mawr College invites applications for a Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow whose work focuses on the politics of gender and women's organizatins or movements in South Asia, preferably, but not necessarily, in its cities. Applicants will be part of the College's Program in Feminist and Gender Studies and should have a background in the social sciences and an interdisciplinary orientation towards research and teaching. The Fellow will pursue research interests, teach one course per semester and engage in the intellectual life of the college. Fellowships are for two years, subject to annual review and recommendation. Applicants must have completed the PhD degree by June 1999. Stipend: $31,000. Applications must be received by February 15, 1999 To apply send vita, 3 letters of recommendation, and research proposal to: Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowship Committee, c/o Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, Bryn Mawr College, 101 N. Merion Avenue, Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania 19010-2899. Bryn Mawr College is an equal opportunity affirmative action employer. The College particularly wishes to encourage individuals interested in joining a multicultural and international academic community. Minority candidates and women are especially encouraged to apply. From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Dec 30 18:32:21 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 10:32:21 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044358.23782.14590150696389886201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > Narayan S. Raja wrote: > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > > > Eastern Peoples_), the attitude that says we should pick up an old text, > > > ardently believe in it and construct the whole of history on that text > > > is not exclusively Hindu. But percentagewise, it seems more a Hindu > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > problem today than, e.g., a Muslim or Christian one. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > I'd be interested to know why you make > > this observation, because it is the > > exact opposite of my experience. In > > fact, the Western controversies over > > evolution, the age of the universe, > > the non-specialness of human beings, > > abortion, contraception, etc. are > > simply not found among Hindus. > > Right here, on the Indology List, and in this thread, there was a list > member who claimed that the Bhagavadgiitaa was written at the beginning > of the Kaliyuga. But that's certainly not the view of the scholars embraced by the Hindutva crowd. If they took the literal view, as do Biblical literalists, then they would have to believe that the metal ages were millions of years before current estimates and that astronomy was invented by an Asura at the beginning of Kaliyug. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From sani at LING.UNIPI.IT Wed Dec 30 09:33:11 1998 From: sani at LING.UNIPI.IT (Saverio Sani) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 10:33:11 +0100 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) Message-ID: <161227044336.23782.17350930149411722749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be grateful to receive information about the use of sesame in old indian food habits (sanskrit or pali quotations etc.). Thanks!! S.Sani 0000,0000,FFFF=================================================================== Prof. Saverio Sani Dipartimento di Linguistica Universita' di Pisa Via S.Maria 36 56126 PISA tel: 05024773; fax: 05044100; cellulare: 0347*3793507 e-mail: sani at ling.unipi.it =================================================================== -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Dec 30 18:37:26 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 10:37:26 -0800 Subject: Hindu traditional view Message-ID: <161227044361.23782.14922745229402071274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am finding that while it is fair game to discuss Indian bias, it is not always the same concerning Eurocentrism. During the last heated discussion on this issue, I found that I suddenly was unable to post back responses after bringing up Euro bias. I had to wait for awhile and re-subscribe using a different version of my address. Remember that the whole AIT theory is based on very liberal interpretation of a group of religious hymns whose date of origin is highly speculative. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Dec 30 09:53:41 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 10:53:41 +0100 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044340.23782.6810644967764934950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>> I would be grateful to receive information about the use of sesame in old indian food habits (sanskrit or pali quotations etc.). Thanks!! S.Sani 0000,0000,FFFF=================================================================== Prof. Saverio Sani 0000,0000,FFFF Sesame oil (taila) is mentioned among the "superior foods" (praNItabhojana) in the bhikSu-prAtimokSasUtra of the SarvAstivAdins and its pAli parallel, rule pAtayantikA 40 (= pAcittiya 39). It may be used as a medicine for sick monks: NiHsargikA pAtayantikA 30 (= nissaggiya pAcittiya 23). Best regards, G.v.Simson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 706 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 30 19:32:15 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 11:32:15 -0800 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044363.23782.14755921157542977437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. S. Palaniappan writes: <<< I do not know why potters should be considered "undeserving hosts". J. A. Schoterman says, "Being the offspring of an illicit union of a Brahmin and a Vaizya-female (Kane II-1: 78) they are regarded as bhojyAnnas, i.e., food prepared by them could be paratken by Brahmins (Kane II-1:122)".(SaTsAhasra saMhitA, p. 8) Note however that the marriage is still anuloma. >>> [...] <<< On the other hand, I think what the mahAbhArata story reveals is a rare glimpse of what the society really had been instead of what the brahminic authors usually wanted it to be. It will be a mistake to rely on the status of castes as propounded by brahmanic law-givers. >>> [Explanation of how the brahmanic law as applied to every Hindu (strictly all Non-Muslims) may have undesirable rigidity - snipped] >?From another followup mail by SP <<< While I have not researched the heritage of other artisans as much as that of the potters, I am on firmer ground when it comes to potters and brahmins. My analysis of the words suggest, that the culture of pre-Vedic Dravidian culture was not hierarchical as the tri-partite Aryan culture was supposed to be. The semantics of the word vEL signifying priests, warriors, and potters suggests this. (On the other hand according to the IA system, each of these would have had to belong to a separate class.) The earliest technologists of the early Dravidian culture might have been potters who were also priests. (Probably other artisans developed out of this group later on.) A section of these native potter-priest-warriors must have adopted the IA culture very early. These became the bhRgus, etc. The entry into brahminhood must have been going on even after Vedic period. These acculturated potter-brahmin-warrior Dravidians must have adopted the tri-partite Aryan class system (later expanded to four classes) and manufactured enough textual "evidence" that they succeeded in elevating themselves above the rest of their original cohorts! >>> I think these thoughts are essential to the understanding of the varNa formation. The modification of Indian society into what L. Dumont calls as Homo Hierarchicus society would have been accomplished along these lines. Pl. see B. K. Smith, Classifying the Universe, Oxford UP, 1994. Prof. Smith notes in p. 10 that Vedic literature represents a world view of its authors, the Brahmins which need not adequately reflect the world views of other strata, particularly the lower strata of Shudras. Even yesterday in Indology, quite an elitist view of Hindu religion was presented from an Ivory tower. As I try to explain, these are not the majority Indian viewpoint. In my view, "outsiders" view for the last few centuries have revealed the real India much more than if it was left to ahistorical thinking of Hindu dominant elites whose views on advaita is understood very little even by themselves. eg., They will brush aside Tamil as a mere Prakrit! They often claim Dravidian language family is "Maayaa", a sabotage on India let loose by Missionaries (cf. Indigenous Aryan school publications). I have not seen any Hindu elite considering "Money is Pure Maayaa". It is a lipservice then and now. Show me one if there is any. For example, Sankara mutts, true heirs to advaita, seek big money and (polical) power all the time. They hobnob with politicians frequently. (cf. major newspapers from India's cities). While there is pushing down the throats of unwilling people, a date of Giitaa as 3102 BC (not at all accepted by the West), there is heavy, urgent rush to emigrate and get the money/job from the West whose inventions directly come from scientific thinking and which all humankind enjoys. With a date of Giitaa as 3102 BC or for Bodhayana as 8000 BC, will e-mail sattra like this become ever possible?? So, Hindu elites compartmentalize their actions: 1) to get a job in the West; 2) to push unsustainable dates for Veda, Giitaa, Westward expansion of Sanskrit from IVC .. These are two different things. I think one should practice what s/he preaches. Once an Indologist wrote here something like "if Rajaram designs an aeroplane, it will fall like rain drops". The pioneering studies from Prof. B. K. Smith, data from Indus valley, and Sangam Tamil texts must be co-studied together. It is interesting that farm laborers are asked: "What vakuppu are you?" by Landlords, usually Vellala castes. vakuppu is division in Tamil. Jaati and varNa are based on birth and color (race) respectively and are Aryan words. These foreign loans exist in Dravidian. The horizontal emerging divisions ('vakuppu') based on labor differentiation is transformed into a vertical, rigid hierarchy, obviously for the benefit of those at the top of the caste pyramid. What is striking about Indus valley culture is the total absence of palaces and temples there. No Kings' tombs either. I hear that IVC is different from other ancient civilizations in that there is not much social stratification found by archaeology. The earliest IA texts are full of varNa hierarchy (cf. G. Dumezil, W. Doniger, B. K. Smith, J. C. Heesterman, ....) Read Sangam texts. Not much of social stratification. The PaaNar, musician-bards are often poor, but they dine and party with the highest of kings. The great poet, Kapilar, a brAhmaNa says that his teeth are worn out by eating fat, tender meat at the king's feasts; he enjoys fine liquor, exchanging 'cheers` with the kings. The IVC data, Sangam Tamil texts, IA text studies (eg Smith), etymological/textual pointers (eg. S. Palaniappan's posts) all point to a good understanding of the earliest India. This territory is mostly uncharted and new paths are just beginning to emerge. Summary: In the dominant Aryan worldview, 'potters' are "undesrving hosts" while it is NOT so in the subaltern Dravidian worldview. Any corrections, additions, references are welcome. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ History of Religions, May 1997 v36 n4 p393(3) Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian "Varna" System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) By Brian K. Smith. New York: Oxford University Press, 1994. Pp. xv + 408. $24.95 (paper). In the five years that have passed since publication of his splendid Reflections on Ritual, Resemblance, and Religion, Brian Smith has brought out a number of articles that suggest he is expanding his research on the logic of homology and preparing to engage a vast and daunting topic--the Vedic classificatory system of varna ("caste" or, more literally, "color") in all its diverse applications, with particular attention to its treatment of (and importance for) the social order.(1) Classifying the Universe fulfills the promise of that earlier work, and it does not disappoint. Indeed, even those who could see that Smith was up to something big, and who hold his scholarship in high regard, may not have been prepared for what an extraordinary piece of work this book would be. To my mind, it is nothing short of a landmark achievement, for here he demonstrates in absolutely conclusive fashion, first, that Vedic knowledge was no hodgepodge of random details but was absolutely systemic and, second, that this system served to anchor and buttress a rigid social hierarchy by providing it with an elegant ideological justification of virtually all-encompassing scope. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Journal of the American Oriental Society, April-June 1996 v116 n2 p344(3) Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian Varna System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) Frederick M. Smith. The next time you run into a neo-Hindu chauvinist - say on a train between Varanasi and Lucknow, or at a health food store in New Mexico - who delivers an impromptu (and unwanted) lecture on the unity of all the peoples of ancient India and the absence of the evil of the caste system in the Vedas, you can come prepared to beat this benighted perpetrator of bliss and harmony into submission with a copy of Brian K. Smith's Classifying the Universe. For B.K.S.'s primary contention, which he pursues relentlessly, is that not only was the varna system thoroughly in effect in the "Vedic Age," but it served, at least in the Vedas, as the primary means of organizing and thinking about nearly everything imaginable. Varna was, he contends, "a totalistic classificatory system" (p. 8). [...] More generally, accepting as support Dumezil's tripartite division of religion and society, B.K.S. advocates that religious discourse can be reduced to its social bases. J. C. Heesterman's Broken World of Sacrifice: An Essay in Ancient Indian Ritual (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1993; [...] Heesterman reads Vedic myth as thinly veiled history, Brian Smith as thinly veiled sociology. Both studies are, however, strongly influenced by the idea that violence lies at the root of their subject: physical, sacrificial violence in Heesterman's case ("anthropophagy cannot be ruled out" [p. 176]), and the violence of word, ideology, and class oppression in Brian Smith's case ("the vis or 'masses' are regarded as the special delicacy of the Kshatriyas" [p. 47]). Heesterman's Veda seems guided by the intoxicating aroma of roast beef, Brian Smith's by the insatiable quest for status and power. Nevertheless, class and sacrifice commingle closely in the Veda, as both Heesterman and Brian Smith are fully aware. So there is a complementarity in their work, even if neither would claim bandhuta with the other. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU Wed Dec 30 17:32:25 1998 From: rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 11:32:25 -0600 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044417.23782.3283478188960403482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm a mere watcher usually, but I couldn't help but add this bit: heroic epithets in other oral epics are often quite funny. I'm translating a Tibetan epic, which quite irrevlantly to this point, has bits of Indian epic in it, and the text is full of irony--- particularly with reference to the heroes. You've got to remember that when epics are performed in villages, people like to make fun of the great. Witness the satire and irony that occur in village performances of Javanese Shadow Plays about Indian epics. Robin Kornman >Artur Karp wrote (I quote only part of his message): > >>I wish I could hear the word "bhArgava" as it was pronounced in the >>original context. Wouldn't it have ironical undertones? Similar to those >>that usually accompany some of the above high-falutin 'courtly titles'? Or >>like these produced by the narrator's sudden shift from the simple >>kumbhakArasya zAlAyAM (potter's compound) to pompous bhArgavavezma >>(BhRguid's abode)? And then on to funny bhArgavakarmazAlAM (BhRguid's >>work-compound)? >> >>It's clear that heroic epithets cannot be always treated literally. Their >>character points oftentimes to a conscious use of irony - especially if >>they are found out of heroic context. Whenever such accents are lost in the >>process of translation, we as the readers cannot see the narrator giving us >>the wink - as if telling us: "look, these are pretensions, appearances, >>disguises - but this here is reality". >> >I doubt very much that this is a valid method of interpreting the text of >the Mahabharata. Irony is a rhetorical device, and we may expect to find it >sometimes in the dialogues, which are often of a polemical character. But >does the narrator himself ever use irony in the narrative parts of the >story? Please give convincing examples! Heroic epithets out of context can >be explained as a feature of the formulaic style of (originally) oral >composition and not as examples of irony, I would say. > >Best regards, >G.v.Simson Robin Kornman Fellow, National Endownment for the Humanities Associate, Joint Center for International Studies University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee 414-967-0311 fax 414-967-0064 rkornman at csd.uwm.edu From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 30 20:46:48 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 12:46:48 -0800 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044373.23782.15432447779160756957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At least "scholars" do not say Kannada is an offshoot of Sanskrit. Also, my post is lot more benign than what is said of Shudras (eg., dharmasastras) in Sanskrit. Prof. B. K. Smith's theory explains many things more than insults, polemics, side tracks from the most vocal Indigenous Aryan in INDOLOGY. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Dec 30 14:13:08 1998 From: HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 14:13:08 +0000 Subject: Kashmiri Poet Lalla & her poems Message-ID: <161227044355.23782.5195034860966547726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is some info on Lalla,the mysric poet of Kashmir: Prof. Louis Renou writes in his edited book "Hinduism" (George BrazillerInc, 215 Park Ave South, New York, Sccond Printing Dec 1961), page 206: "Lalla, the prophetess of Kashmir who lived in the 14th Century, taught a method of Yoga which is connected with Kashmirian Shaivism and has 'advaita' Vedanta as a basis. Her novel contribution to the religious tonality of India lies in not so much she knew and assimilated the Sufi doctrines as that, with the elaborate and often very esoteric symbols which she adopted, she preserved or discovered a most pure and profound mystical sentiment" In the same book (pages 206 - 209), he gives 17 (seventeen) poems selected from Lalla's works. These English translations are from the book :"The Word of Lalla, the Prophetess" by R.C. Temple (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge Mass., 1924, pages 167-173) Sincerely, -Harihareswara Stockton, California ------------------------------ Don Traxer wrote: Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:20:49 -0500 From: Don Traxler Subject: Lalla Is anyone working on the sayings of Lalla (Lal Ded, Lalleshwari), the fourteenth century mystic and poet of Kashmir? I am aware that a similar question was asked by another subscriber to this list a couple of years ago, but would like an update. Also, is anyone working on old Kashmiri? Thanks in advance. Donald Traxler yav=E0 t=E0:r tsali tim ambar hyaty, bvachi yav=E0 tsali tim a:ha:r ann | tsyat=E0 svapar svavyatsa:ras pyat=E0, tsyata: dihas va:n kya: van || --Lalleshvari Wear only enough clothes to keep away the cold, Eat only enough food to banish hunger. Contemplate your own self in meditation, O mind, give this advice to the body. --Lalla (Lal Ded), 14th Century Poet and Mystic of Kashmir ------------------------------ From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 30 20:31:18 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 14:31:18 -0600 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <19981230193215.9424.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044367.23782.4065495189396618864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> gosh....what a frustrated man ! Lookup.... http://www.spiritweb.com/Spirit/Veda/classifying-universum.html Actually, the long rant is very useful. We get an idea of the quality and venom of the people who have been interpreting Indian history so far. And for the first time in a long time there is atleast the possibilty of responding to the venom that the so called "scholars" spew. Subrahmanya From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 30 23:13:25 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:13:25 -0800 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044378.23782.10501176121746333280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I doubt if you have studied people of India. Books don't say what people think. I suggest that you go and visit the villages. You would discover. Interview as many people as you can to get a sample. >>> I spent many decades in village India, interviewed several people all across India for years. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 30 09:59:00 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:29:00 +0530 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044345.23782.16725723277802643084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > Eastern Peoples_), the attitude that says we should pick up an old text, > > ardently believe in it and construct the whole of history on that text > > is not exclusively Hindu. But percentagewise, it seems more a Hindu > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > problem today than, e.g., a Muslim or Christian one. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I'd be interested to know why you make > this observation, because it is the > exact opposite of my experience. In > fact, the Western controversies over > evolution, the age of the universe, > the non-specialness of human beings, > abortion, contraception, etc. are > simply not found among Hindus. Right here, on the Indology List, and in this thread, there was a list member who claimed that the Bhagavadgiitaa was written at the beginning of the Kaliyuga. On the basis of what? This is the kind of antihistorical attitude I was referring to. > In my experience, Hindu scriptural literalists > are negligible in number. Quite the contrary. It happens over and over that I try to start a historical discussion with traditional pundits about, e.g., the relative dating of puraa.nas, and the reply will be that such a question cannot arise because all puraa.nas have been written by Vedavyaasa, who is Vi.s.nu himself, hence they are all equally old. Similarly, there are other questions of a historical or textually critical nature which are practically not discussable: e.g., the actual (small) number of works that are truly by ;Sa:nkaraacaarya (despite the writings of Paul Hacker and Agehananda Bharati); that Madhvaacaarya wrote not 37, but 39 works which have been preserved till today (because some other old author wrote '37', and this idea remains current, despite the publication of those 2 other works by the editor of Madhva's collected writings, Bannanje Govindacharya). I am quite sure that any researcher working on any Indian religious scriptural tradition can report more such matters (because I have yet to see a tradition in which this is not the case). > On the other hand, > political pseudo-Hinduism (e.g., the BJP) is > clearly a problem. But this is not based on > literal interpretation of any text. But neither are those Western (or do you mean 'American'?) controversies to which you referred above. What matters is that the persons who present such 'interpretations' _believe_ that they are literal and (what is more important to them) objective. It is rather characteristic of various fundamentalisms that they are _not_ based on a critical reading of texts, taking into consideration the general circumstances under which the texts were created, but rather on some later ideology that is projected onto a text or texts. And the 'psychological' or 'emotional' investments (to use expressions from Agehananda Bharati) made in those ideologies are so great that they are not open to critical investigation and discussion. As a result, criteria for determining the appropriateness of a view or interpretation or theory are based neither on a text, nor on logic, nor on a comprehensive view of history, but on other things: ethnic / communal hatred and arrogance, or vested political interests, or chips on the shoulders of certain sections of society, or an ongoing culture shock from which in some cases Indian expatriates sadly suffer, etc., or combinations of these. Unfortunately, some of this keeps cropping up in this List. > Every Western problem doesn't have to have an > exact Indian counterpart... I, for one, never said so (and I fully agree with you on that point). At the same time, we can see that some problems do have their counterparts, and in the interest of general modesty it helps to point this out. > Regards, and best wishes for a happy new year, The same, -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Dec 30 20:37:46 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:37:46 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044370.23782.6466740804268375275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I could not agree more. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: SNS [SMTP:sns at IX.NETCOM.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 3:31 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: pots, brahmin names, and potters gosh....what a frustrated man ! Lookup.... http://www.spiritweb.com/Spirit/Veda/classifying-universum.html Actually, the long rant is very useful. We get an idea of the quality and venom of the people who have been interpreting Indian history so far. And for the first time in a long time there is atleast the possibilty of responding to the venom that the so called "scholars" spew. Subrahmanya From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 30 10:10:06 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:40:06 +0530 Subject: Hindu traditional view Message-ID: <161227044343.23782.2599959730383560683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra wrote: > > Comments on Hindu traditional views > ----------------------------------- > Any assertion that a Hindu traditional view is akin to > a fundamentalist Christian view is wrong. I fail to see how anyone can seriously make such a sweeping categorical statement, esp. when so many examples of the contrary are readily available. You may discover at some later time that almost all of the remainder of your sermon reflects merely one possible ideological view, at the best, and certainly not 'the' traditional Hindu way of looking at things. (S. Radhakrishnan set an example for Advaitin fundamentalism with writings like his _Hindu View of Life_, which seems just one minority view.) But this will demand a serious and open-minded study of materials from a variety of traditions, which may not at all be possible next to your regular astronomical work. For professional Indologists, it is a full-time occupation. Anyhow, I too wish a > Happy New Year to all of you.. in which ideologies may recede into the background and the full, rich diversity and richness of, and truth about, India may receive greater attention. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Dec 31 03:00:19 1998 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 17:00:19 -1000 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <3689F964.3E17B622@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044388.23782.3395326959886806362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Right here, on the Indology List, and in this thread, there was a list > member who claimed that the Bhagavadgiitaa was written at the beginning > of the Kaliyuga. On the basis of what? This is the kind of > antihistorical attitude I was referring to. Anyone can say anything. But did anyone take her/him seriously? Has it ever been an issue in India? (In a mythological sense, of course, the Bhagavad Gita was indeed written at the beginning of the Kaliyuga. It's true in the same sense that "Siva rides on a bull called Nandi"). > > In my experience, Hindu scriptural literalists > > are negligible in number. > > Quite the contrary. It happens over and over that I try to start a > historical discussion with traditional pundits about, e.g., the relative > dating of puraa.nas, and the reply will be that such a question cannot > arise because all puraa.nas have been written by Vedavyaasa, who is > Vi.s.nu himself, hence they are all equally old. Traditional pandits are a valuable resource in the same sense that a traditional mahout (elephant handler) or snake charmer is a valuable resource. The mahout handles elephants every day. He can handle elephants for us. He can tell us how much food they eat, how long they need to sleep, etc. He can help us with a rogue elephant. But if we discuss the origin of elephants, quite possibly the mahout will tell us that they all descended from Indra's elephant, Airavata. The mahout is not a reliable source of information about the origin of elephants. A pity, of course. But it merely means we should talk to a zoologist instead. We face a serious problem only if zoology professors teach that elephants were descended from Indra's elephant, Airavata. In actual life, there do exist traditional pandits who are also capable of a historical discussion. These are like modern zoo veterinarians. They can handle the elephant and also discuss its comparative anatomy. But I think that's a bonus. Best wishes, Raja. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 30 22:25:32 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 17:25:32 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <19981230193215.9424.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044375.23782.285389231099500530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Pl. see B. K. Smith, Classifying the Universe, Oxford UP, 1994. > Prof. Smith notes in p. 10 that Vedic literature represents > a world view of its authors, the Brahmins which need not > adequately > reflect the world views of other strata, particularly the lower > strata of Shudras. > Looks like one would show anything to put forth a claim that Dravidian culture foreshadowed IA. Could be true, but not thru Smith. Poor connection. > Even yesterday in Indology, quite an elitist view of Hindu > religion was presented from an Ivory tower. As I try to > explain, these are not the majority Indian viewpoint. > In my view, "outsiders" view for the last few centuries > have revealed the real India much more than if it was > left to ahistorical thinking of Hindu dominant elites > whose views on advaita is understood very little even by > themselves. I do understand these a little more than you would assume. I doubt if you have studied people of India. Books don't say what people think. I suggest that you go and visit the villages. You would discover. Interview as many people as you can to get a sample. You may do that in the US to get a sense. eg., They will brush aside Tamil as a mere Prakrit! > They often claim Dravidian language family is "Maayaa", a > sabotage on India let loose by Missionaries (cf. Indigenous > Aryan school publications). I have not seen any Hindu elite > considering > "Money is Pure Maayaa". It is a lipservice then and now. > Show me one if there is any. For example, Sankara mutts, > true heirs to advaita, seek big money and (polical) power all > the > time. They hobnob with politicians frequently. (cf. major > newspapers from India's cities). While there is pushing > down the throats of unwilling people, a date of Giitaa > as 3102 BC (not at all accepted by the West), there is heavy, > urgent > rush to emigrate and get the money/job from the West whose > inventions > These look like attacks than any substance. Please refrain from making casual political comments. What the mutts do has nothing to do with what people think. Please don't get agitated and get off-track. By the way, your earlier postings had some good new stuff. My knowledge of Dravidian material is miniscule. To discover the linguistic connection from Tamil to Sanskrit and find the foundation of IA in Dravidian culture will be a very significant contribution indeed. Have a peaceful new year.. - Bijoy Misra From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Dec 30 23:17:21 1998 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 18:17:21 -0500 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044380.23782.11150214345411088509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > So the presumption of Tamilians and others being driven southwards by > invaders should not be taken for granted. And so we need not expect any > 'scripture' describing this. so, then was a Munda or Austranesian-like language being spoken in these lands before the Dravidian speakers came? > -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 31 01:03:08 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 20:03:08 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <19981230231325.18230.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044383.23782.12059632133059604182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > <<< > > I spent many decades in village India, interviewed > several people all across India for years. On the New year's eve vein, let me suggest to interview some more.. All the best.. - BM From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 30 16:35:29 1998 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 22:05:29 +0530 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044393.23782.12204123844389916000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > K.V. Zvelebil's _Dravidian Linguistics: An Introduction_, 1990 > "Dravidian speakers came from the > West by the _same_ route or at the _same_ time. Some may have come > through Afghanistan via the mountain passes and river valleys; others > may have come along the coast, possibly even by sea." (p. 47). > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Does this have anything to do with David McAlpin's > Elam - Brahui - South Dravidian theory. Recently, > Mr. Karp informed of Prof. J. Braun's work on the > relations between Elamite and Dravidian. No, Zvelebil says his hypothesis is based on "the frequent occurrence of the elements *ko-/koo- or *ku-/kuu- (DEDR 2178), (DEDR 1864) as well as *mal-ay (DEDR 4742) in the names which various Dravidians used to identify themselves." (the same book, p. 50). > Interestingly, Tamils in Sri Lanka are called Elamites! > (Eelam). (cf. Sangam Tamil texts). We'd have to see what the 'Elam' in Iran means. > For example, expansion from South India into Southeast Asia, > SaatavAhanas, Pallavas, Cholas, ... This shows seafaring abilities > of Dravidians. I dimly recall that someone had reported a Tamil inscription from New Zealand, but I don't have the reference here, nor can I say whether the identification is correct. And there is the hypothesis of a relationship between Dravidian and Japanese. When I first heard this on NHK (the Japanese shortwave radio) and mentioned it to Zvelebil, he was utterly skeptical (he presumed it was just another kookie theory), but several years down the road, in that book from Pondicherry, he has devoted a short chapter to the matter. But all this is still in a hypothetical stage. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 31 05:06:32 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 00:06:32 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <199812310247.HAA04564@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044390.23782.15083884579925072586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > From > "K. S. Arjunwadkar" > To > List members > > Dec 31, 98 > > The concept of Mukti (liberation) as expounded in Vedanta texts cannot > logically co-exist with conscious worldly activities of a man; since the > former presumes total freedom from instincts and efforts towards a worldly > object, while the latter can proceed only from a worldly, howsoever noble, > motivation. I can't claim to be a learned scholar on this, but this is my take. The coexistence with worldly activities takes place, once you do acts for the sake of doing and for the sake of achieving. Achievements are external perceptions of your deeds, you not waiting on them. (beautifully said in Bhagavadgita). > Does Shankaracharya himself, with his persistent and admirable > intellectual and missionary work as vindicated by the record of his vast > literary and organisational achievements, fit in this concept as most of > his admirers and traditional biographers believe he does? In other words, > was he a liberated soul? > He himself defines the stages of liberation in vivekacuDamaNi. The aspiration of liberation is the last stage of a yogi's life. All activities indeed cease at that time. > If we choose to set apart his biographical details replete with miracles > and rely only on evidence from his scholarly works, we come across remarks > against his opponents which are in no way different from those of a total > worldly man. Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on > logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking > with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of > the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was > either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking pleasure > in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my > statements. >?From his own definition, these are the sraddha stages and are induced by one's teacher. These lead to samadhana when the arguments lose meaning and finally the mumuksuta, when one realizes one's "true nature" (not easy!) > > Shankaracharya was undoubtedly an intellectual giant and an able social > organiser whose influence on Indian people is as much alive today as it was > centuries ago. Personally, too, I owe him a great debt inasmuch as a > sustained study of his works moulded my thinking habit through several > decades. The issue I have raised should be taken as purely academic which, > strangely enough, has its roots in his effective teaching in the art of > logical thinking. > > I shall be thankful to learned list members for a feedback. A simple minded feedback.. How does one categorize SriKrishna if he lived or Buddha, Jesus Christ or Mahammed as part of history? Something to think in new year.. - BM From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 31 13:48:46 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 05:48:46 -0800 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044395.23782.4751657932082546267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I dimly recall that someone had reported a Tamil inscription from New Zealand, but I don't have the reference here, nor can I say whether the identification is correct. And there is the hypothesis of a relationship between Dravidian and Japanese. When I first heard this on NHK (the Japanese shortwave radio) and mentioned it to Zvelebil, he was utterly skeptical (he presumed it was just another kookie theory), but several years down the road, in that book from Pondicherry, he has devoted a short chapter to the matter. But all this is still in a hypothetical stage. >>> I have to check my collection of papers: In New Zealand, it is a big bell, inscribed in Tamil. Well, I think of Susumu Ono's works; P. Pelliot wrote in early 1900s an article on the realtions between Tamil and Japanese alphabetical order. Some have shown the similarities between Maanyoshu and Sangam poetry. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 31 02:06:04 1998 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 07:36:04 +0530 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044386.23782.320804789281306063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" To List members Dec 31, 98 The concept of Mukti (liberation) as expounded in Vedanta texts cannot logically co-exist with conscious worldly activities of a man; since the former presumes total freedom from instincts and efforts towards a worldly object, while the latter can proceed only from a worldly, howsoever noble, motivation. Does Shankaracharya himself, with his persistent and admirable intellectual and missionary work as vindicated by the record of his vast literary and organisational achievements, fit in this concept as most of his admirers and traditional biographers believe he does? In other words, was he a liberated soul? If we choose to set apart his biographical details replete with miracles and rely only on evidence from his scholarly works, we come across remarks against his opponents which are in no way different from those of a total worldly man. Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking pleasure in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my statements. Shankaracharya was undoubtedly an intellectual giant and an able social organiser whose influence on Indian people is as much alive today as it was centuries ago. Personally, too, I owe him a great debt inasmuch as a sustained study of his works moulded my thinking habit through several decades. The issue I have raised should be taken as purely academic which, strangely enough, has its roots in his effective teaching in the art of logical thinking. I shall be thankful to learned list members for a feedback. KSA From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 31 15:36:05 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 07:36:05 -0800 Subject: B. K. Smith's books Message-ID: <161227044397.23782.1051009006032033462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: NG> Pl. see B. K. Smith, Classifying the Universe, Oxford UP, 1994. NG> Prof. Smith notes in p. 10 that Vedic literature represents NG> a world view of its authors, the Brahmins which need not NG> adequately reflect the world views of other strata, particularly NG> the lower strata of Shudras. Mr. Bijoy Misra's comment: >Looks like one would show anything to put forth a claim that >Dravidian culture foreshadowed IA. Could be true, but not thru >Smith. Poor connection. [...] >My knowledge of Dravidian material is miniscule. It is interesting that if one studies Dravidian culture/literature (atleast from translations), s/he won't be pushing the Indigenous Aryan "theories" or justify varNa color theories. Reading the books by B. K. Smith and the favorable reviews, a sample of which is attached, I tend to believe in Prof. Smith's theory on varNa. Of course, David Frawley and company confuse and distort. I wait for the day when Mr. Bijoy Misra writes a book or a journal article disproving Smith's varna theory. Until then, I would rather go with Prof. Smith. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------------------------ Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian "Varna" System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) Bruce Lincoln. History of Religions May 1997 v36 n4 p393(3) Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian Varna System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) Brian A. Hatcher. Journal of the American Academy of Religion Winter 1996 v64 n4 p863(4) Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian Varna System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) Kenneth G. Zysk. The Journal of Asian Studies August 1996 v55 n3 p770(2) Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian Varna System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) Frederick M. Smith. The Journal of the American Oriental Society April-June 1996 v116 n2 p344(3) Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian Varna System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) Bradley R. Hertel. The Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion June 1995 v34 n2 p283(2) Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian Varna System and the Origins of Caste. (book reviews) George W. Spencer. American Historical Review Feb 1995 v100 n1 p214(2) Reflections on Resemblance, Ritual and Religion. (book reviews) Wendell L. Minnick. Journal of Asian History Spring 1991 v25 n1 p85(2) Reflections on Resemblance, Ritual and Religion. (book reviews) J.C. Heesterman. History of Religions Feb 1991 v30 n3 p296(10) Reflections on Resemblance, Ritual, and Religion. (book reviews) Frederick M. Smith. The Journal of the American Oriental Society Oct-Dec 1990 v110 n4 p735(3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 31 17:04:14 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 09:04:14 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044408.23782.5758677118043894792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SA> These were recently introduced into the syllabi of UP schools, SA> and an attempt is being made to introduce these teachings into SA> all Indian textbooks. LMF>As I take an interest in these things, I would be very grateful LMF> for any bibliographic data that you (or anybody else) LMF> have/has on the UP textbooks. Dear Dr. Lars Fosse, P. Robb, The concept of Race in South Asia, Oxford UP, 1997, p. 342: "In order to make this point without contradicting prestigious predecessors such as Tilak, Golwalkar concedes that the 'Aryans, i.e., the Hindus, lived in the region of the North POle'. But he argues that modern palaeontological researches demonstrate the the North Pole is not stationary, and that 'quite long ago it was in that part of the world, we find, is called Bihar and Orissa at the present' [59] [59] Golwalkar, We, or our nationhood defined, p. 13. Interestingly, this theory has been introduced in the history textbooks in the States controlled between 1990 and 1992 by the Bharatiya Janata Party, the political front of the R.S.S." Robb's collection contains important essays. This looks like a sure case of zoologists teaching humble folk that all world's bulls descend from 'Siva's Nandin. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 31 17:05:43 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 09:05:43 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044410.23782.3620366055531480423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Har Bilas Sarda (1867-1955), Arya Samajist from Ajmer, Rajasthan organised the celebration for Dayananda's birth centenary in 1924. Pl. see the second chapter, Hindu colonization of the world, in H. B. Sarda, The Hindu superiority - an attempt to determine the position of the Hindu race in the scale of nations, 1906 ((several) Reprint, N. Delhi, 1975). This author rejects the Central Asia theory for IE origins. He asserts that the Aryavarta was the birth place of a race which spread annd settled in Egypt, Ethiopia, Persia, Asia Minor, Greece, Rome, Turkistan, Germany, Scandinavia, Hyperborean countries, Great Britain, Eastern Asia and America. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 31 15:48:13 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 10:48:13 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044399.23782.8412441433833857093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If this indeed were true, how come the sudden outburst ? I guess you interviewed a lot of people who told you of the treachery of the Sankara Matths all over India. Indeed, everyday, several hundred thousand people are brainwashed into going to the different Tirtha-Dhams and Sankara Matths and offering prayers, money and political patronage !!! That is some conclusion. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: N. Ganesan [SMTP:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 6:13 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: pots, brahmin names, and potters <<< I doubt if you have studied people of India. Books don't say what people think. I suggest that you go and visit the villages. You would discover. Interview as many people as you can to get a sample. >>> I spent many decades in village India, interviewed several people all across India for years. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 31 15:52:57 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 10:52:57 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044401.23782.9177733264254790768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't think this forum is the one that you should pose this question to. There is an ADVAITA-L subscription list at http://LISTSERV.TAMU.EDU . Several scholars on Sankara's history and his writings post to this list. Ashish ________ <<< From "K. S. Arjunwadkar" To List members Dec 31, 98 The concept of Mukti (liberation) as expounded in Vedanta texts cannot logically co-exist with conscious worldly activities of a man; since the former presumes total freedom from instincts and efforts towards a worldly object, while the latter can proceed only from a worldly, howsoever noble, motivation. Does Shankaracharya himself, with his persistent and admirable intellectual and missionary work as vindicated by the record of his vast literary and organisational achievements, fit in this concept as most of his admirers and traditional biographers believe he does? In other words, was he a liberated soul? If we choose to set apart his biographical details replete with miracles and rely only on evidence from his scholarly works, we come across remarks against his opponents which are in no way different from those of a total worldly man. Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking pleasure in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my statements. Shankaracharya was undoubtedly an intellectual giant and an able social organiser whose influence on Indian people is as much alive today as it was centuries ago. Personally, too, I owe him a great debt inasmuch as a sustained study of his works moulded my thinking habit through several decades. The issue I have raised should be taken as purely academic which, strangely enough, has its roots in his effective teaching in the art of logical thinking. I shall be thankful to learned list members for a feedback. KSA From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 31 15:59:10 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 10:59:10 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044404.23782.16643241789911412624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think I should set the record straight here. Swami Gambhirananda, in his introduction to Adi Sankaracharya's Gita Bhashya mentions that there are several dates proposed for the Mahabharata, and hence the writing of the Gita. In that introduction, I read that there are several scholars who hold the view that it was written around 3102 BC. Who these people are and why they say so is for you all to find out. But don't start saying things like "on what basis". You have the name of the book and the publisher is Advaita Ashrama, Mayavati, Himalaya. You can find out for yourself. You don't have to take me seriously. I am, only quoting, just like a lot of us here. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: Narayan S. Raja [SMTP:raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 10:00 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Early Giithaa sculptures On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Right here, on the Indology List, and in this thread, there was a list > member who claimed that the Bhagavadgiitaa was written at the beginning > of the Kaliyuga. On the basis of what? This is the kind of > antihistorical attitude I was referring to. Anyone can say anything. But did anyone take her/him seriously? Has it ever been an issue in India? (In a mythological sense, of course, the Bhagavad Gita was indeed written at the beginning of the Kaliyuga. It's true in the same sense that "Siva rides on a bull called Nandi"). > > In my experience, Hindu scriptural literalists > > are negligible in number. > > Quite the contrary. It happens over and over that I try to start a > historical discussion with traditional pundits about, e.g., the relative > dating of puraa.nas, and the reply will be that such a question cannot > arise because all puraa.nas have been written by Vedavyaasa, who is > Vi.s.nu himself, hence they are all equally old. Traditional pandits are a valuable resource in the same sense that a traditional mahout (elephant handler) or snake charmer is a valuable resource. The mahout handles elephants every day. He can handle elephants for us. He can tell us how much food they eat, how long they need to sleep, etc. He can help us with a rogue elephant. But if we discuss the origin of elephants, quite possibly the mahout will tell us that they all descended from Indra's elephant, Airavata. The mahout is not a reliable source of information about the origin of elephants. A pity, of course. But it merely means we should talk to a zoologist instead. We face a serious problem only if zoology professors teach that elephants were descended from Indra's elephant, Airavata. In actual life, there do exist traditional pandits who are also capable of a historical discussion. These are like modern zoo veterinarians. They can handle the elephant and also discuss its comparative anatomy. But I think that's a bonus. Best wishes, Raja. From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Dec 31 19:36:44 1998 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 11:36:44 -0800 Subject: SV: Hindu traditional view Message-ID: <161227044420.23782.2842791814489466187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > [Lars Martin Fosse] > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > Remember that the whole AIT theory is based on very liberal > interpretation of a group of religious hymns whose date of origin is > highly speculative. > > [Lars Martin Fosse] > The AIT is not simply based on the interpretation of the Vedas (if that is > what you refer to as a group of religious hymns). The AIT is based on the > combined interpretation of a vast material of a literary, linguistic and > archaeological character, involving Iranian as well as Greek, Italic, > Germanic, Slavonic, Baltic sources. In the final analysis, the AIT depends > upon the interpretation of the Indo-European material as a totality. I disagree. While some of the other evidence you cite might help explain the theory of Indo-European linguistic and cultural influence, it hardly has any bearing on the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT). There is nothing in external historical sources that suggests an invasion of India, and really nothing in the archaeological or anthropological record either. I believe the archaeological record now strongly shows that IVC was *not* overthrown by invaders from the North or West. Also, there is no biological evidence to show a sudden intrusion anywhere near the time of the downfall of IVC. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 31 19:46:39 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 11:46:39 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044423.23782.13859399886893276936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Why don't you get a copy of one such textbook and then quote from there wherein it is said that Bihar and Orissa were once part of North Pole. The book, We, or our Nationhood Defined, is not in print anymore. If you have one such copy, please let me know. I'd like to take a look at it. Guruji ki Jai Ashish >>> If the word, "you" in Asish's post refers to me: Please do not order me into submission. The quotes are in the book edited by P. Robb, 1997, OUP which I am sure will be correct even if one gets the copy and checks it. My quote from the Oxford univ. book is intended for thoughtful academic discussions and I would like to hear from learned members of INDOLOGY list. N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 31 17:24:46 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 12:24:46 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044415.23782.16213584058443867990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why don't you get a copy of one such textbook and then quote from there wherein it is said that Bihar and Orissa were once part of North Pole. The book, We, or our Nationhood Defined, is not in print anymore. If you have one such copy, please let me know. I'd like to take a look at it. Guruji ki Jai Ashish -----Original Message----- From: N. Ganesan [SMTP:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 12:04 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. SA> These were recently introduced into the syllabi of UP schools, SA> and an attempt is being made to introduce these teachings into SA> all Indian textbooks. LMF>As I take an interest in these things, I would be very grateful LMF> for any bibliographic data that you (or anybody else) LMF> have/has on the UP textbooks. Dear Dr. Lars Fosse, P. Robb, The concept of Race in South Asia, Oxford UP, 1997, p. 342: "In order to make this point without contradicting prestigious predecessors such as Tilak, Golwalkar concedes that the 'Aryans, i.e., the Hindus, lived in the region of the North POle'. But he argues that modern palaeontological researches demonstrate the the North Pole is not stationary, and that 'quite long ago it was in that part of the world, we find, is called Bihar and Orissa at the present' [59] [59] Golwalkar, We, or our nationhood defined, p. 13. Interestingly, this theory has been introduced in the history textbooks in the States controlled between 1990 and 1992 by the Bharatiya Janata Party, the political front of the R.S.S." Robb's collection contains important essays. This looks like a sure case of zoologists teaching humble folk that all world's bulls descend from 'Siva's Nandin. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Dec 31 11:46:15 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 12:46:15 +0100 Subject: SV: Hindu traditional view Message-ID: <161227044413.23782.13629541680112876430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Lars Martin Fosse] Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: Remember that the whole AIT theory is based on very liberal interpretation of a group of religious hymns whose date of origin is highly speculative. [Lars Martin Fosse] The AIT is not simply based on the interpretation of the Vedas (if that is what you refer to as a group of religious hymns). The AIT is based on the combined interpretation of a vast material of a literary, linguistic and archaeological character, involving Iranian as well as Greek, Italic, Germanic, Slavonic, Baltic sources. In the final analysis, the AIT depends upon the interpretation of the Indo-European material as a totality. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 31 20:55:59 1998 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 12:55:59 -0800 Subject: Vedic Anatolia, 7500 B.C. Message-ID: <161227044428.23782.4329296486723253085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vedic in Anatolia, 7500 BC? ----------------------------- S. Kak, On the classification of Indic languages, Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 75, p. 185-195, 1994 Just before the Section 6. Conclusions: "This scenario also explains the striking resemblance between Vedic form and a head unearthed at Nevali Cori in Anatolia by H. Hauptmann. The site of Nevali Cori dates to about 7500 B.C. The striking thing about the head is that it is clean shaven except for a long tuft at the top that looks strikingly similar in style to the zikhA that a student wore in the Vedic times. B. G. Siddharth [22] has taken this similarity to mean that this Anatolian civilization was Vedic. Our model, that considers the Indo-Europeans to be already spread from Anatolia to Northwest India at the time of Nevali Cori, is consistent with such identification." Siddharth and Kak identify Anatolia of 7500 B.C. as Vedic civilization. Any comments? Have a good 1999, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Dec 31 11:19:06 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 14:19:06 +0300 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044439.23782.6082848928960404769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the very eve of the New Year restless Ashish Chandra wrote: >What is wrong with the view that the Europeans want us to believe >in AIT because it gives credence to the idea that India has always been >invaded and settled ? Dear Ashish, thank you for so clear and honest formulation of the concept which is really basic for your favourite Out-of-India "theory". But can not you see yourself that the concept which helds that ALL Europeans are scoundrels and politically (or otherwise?) biased falsifiers of facts, is racist? And it can not be a base for any scientific theory, but only for the racist, nationalistic propaganda. What makes your words particularly insulting and unjust is that you mean by the wicked "Europeans" first of all Indologists - i.e. the people who devoted their lives to the study of India, the country they love. And love quite disinterestedly, though I doubt you can believe it. >Where is the damn proof for AIT ? If we change (which is absolutely necessary) the AIT for AMT (Aryan Migration theory) - the exhaustively full answer has been given in the last posting by R.Zydenbos. Such thing as AIT does not exist now (for several decades at least). Fighting with "AIT", you fight with Don Quixote's windmills. Best wishes for 1999 to all, Yaroslav Vassilkov From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Dec 31 20:01:59 1998 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 15:01:59 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044425.23782.10319907993743242082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is quite natural that you should expect to hear from scholars of Indology Dr. Ganesan. Anyone who does not agree with you is not a scholar is it ? You had mentioned that Dr. Subhash Kak used to write here on Indology a few years back but left when members objected to his "unscientific" theories. In fact, I find nothing in Indology archives (I apologize in advance if I have missed) that indicates any acrimony arising out of Shri Kak's postings, expect for one individual who did not want Shri Kak to indulge in, what he called it, self-publicity. Which of his writings on Indology are you referring to ? Or every one who opposes AIT and is a North Indian, wrong and anyone, with even a single book from Oxford University Press to his/her credit an automatic Vidwaan (scholar) on Indology. What is wrong with the view that the Europeans want us to believe in AIT because it gives credence to the idea that India has always been invaded and settled ? This may be unscientific to you but I am not performing surgery on this statement. I am taking it as, is in light of what we know of our history. Scholars like you, and Mr. B.K. Smith have their own agendas and expect others to always reply and provide proof. Where is the damn proof for AIT ? In Sankara Maths ? In Tamil literature ? Where ? I am might be puny brained non-entity in your view but you are one BIASED individual Sri Ganesan. And you have only a one-point agenda when it comes to discussing AIT. Every Brahmin is suspect in your eyes and every European scholar (not David Frawley and likes, of course) is correct in interpreting our history because they can give a "non-biased outside view". I asked you if you had seen a school textbook which said that Orissa and Bihar were once a part of North Pole. You can probably take your thoughtful scholary discussion offline because I don't find anything scholarly about it. Just a one-point agenda. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: N. Ganesan [SMTP:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 2:47 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. <<< Why don't you get a copy of one such textbook and then quote from there wherein it is said that Bihar and Orissa were once part of North Pole. The book, We, or our Nationhood Defined, is not in print anymore. If you have one such copy, please let me know. I'd like to take a look at it. Guruji ki Jai Ashish >>> If the word, "you" in Asish's post refers to me: Please do not order me into submission. The quotes are in the book edited by P. Robb, 1997, OUP which I am sure will be correct even if one gets the copy and checks it. My quote from the Oxford univ. book is intended for thoughtful academic discussions and I would like to hear from learned members of INDOLOGY list. N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Dec 25 19:13:20 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 14:13:20 -0500 Subject: An interesting web page In-Reply-To: <000a01be2da9$3dce3640$6baec28e@win98> Message-ID: <161227044119.23782.7086383080578330740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not read any discussion on this nor is there a link to express one's opinion on the author's views. In my view the author is very confused. The fact that Mahabharat and Ramayan are books of fiction and not history has nothing to do with AIT. One can evaluate the character of the two epics by its story line and style and easily come to the conclusion that the authors were just writing an allegory to illustrate their own ideas and nothing else. On 22 Dec 98, Stephen wrote: > http://www.stanford.edu/class/wct3b1/sjaiswal/aryan.html > From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Dec 25 20:15:38 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 15:15:38 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan In-Reply-To: <01BE2E6A.4F717800.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044121.23782.2501699906944652119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 23 Dec 98, Ashish Chandra wrote: > 1. What does the term "semiticization of Hinduism" mean and how have > Vivekananda and Ramakrishna missions promoted it ? Could you provide > instances ? No doubt Gita is the only text is which god talks to a man like Messiahs of semitic religions. Gita itself is a very insignificant chapter in a vast fictional epic of Mahabharat. Hinduism as it occurs in Vedas is neither monotheistic nor messianic. > 2. As far as I understood the term "In the desperate search for an > equivalent to Bible and Quran, Hindus found their answer in Gita. In the > constructs of Indian nationalism It is incorrect to say that Hindus found the answer in Gita but rather it is the christians who found the answers in Gita as a text which supports their faith in revealed religions. Rightly or wrongly, Vedas were restircted to study only by a priviledged class of Hindus and it was considered one of highest crime to disclose its content to unauthorized people, as the story of Sudrak illustrates. However, even after German scholars got hold of the Vedas, they did not support the western tradition of revealed truths. I am not sure of how it came about but many missionaries were not happy with what they found in Vedas and must have jumped with joy on finding Gita. Of course, many Hindus started accepting Gita when many western scholars started talking about it. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Dec 25 20:30:52 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 15:30:52 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <01BE2E93.3775F4A0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044123.23782.10903069109064246974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 23 Dec 98, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Anyone wants to respond to this ? This dating has been done using the > position of the stars and planets as described in the Mahabharata of Rshi > Ved Vyas. Something like Nostradamus text and a recent book that claims all kind of historical events based by codes imagined by the author. You can interpret it to mean anything you want. As far I can see Mahabharat was written a fictional account which may have accidentally used some place names and events as a crutch to the story line. The style of the story and its narration in the first person is one of the clues that is was a book of fiction where the author wanted to impress the listeners. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Dec 26 16:22:02 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 11:22:02 -0500 Subject: Kamban's Aryan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044163.23782.12093612075380175142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 25 Dec 98, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > Well, and what about great VedAntic thinkers Zankara and RAmAnuja, > who considered the GItA to be the central, most important piece in the > MahAbhArata and the quintessence of divine wisdom? As far as I can say they may have been influenced by Arabic Islamist invasions. Mahabharat is not part of Vedas but is a Puran. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Dec 26 16:55:19 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 11:55:19 -0500 Subject: "Your eyes are divine" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044168.23782.7343557646332575968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 26 Dec 98, Anand Nayak wrote: > There are 4 types of knowledge: > 1/ Mathematical: 2+2=4 > 2/ Juridical: "Keep to the left" or "smoking is prohited" > 3/ Metaphysical:"where there is smoke, there is fire" > 4/ Metaphorical: "Your eyes are divine" Your classification appears too contrived. Actually #1 and #3 are essentially the same as they pertain to the process of logic (deductive or inductive). #3 is not based on any knowledge but power of the person making the statement. 4 is also arbitrary and in the systematic study of knowledge it falls under the process of "analogy" which is considered the weakest form logic. > Now to try to prove or disprove God mathematically is as ridiculous as > trying to understand mathematical laws metaphorically. I dont think anybody has claimed that. As a matter of fact a mathematician, Godel, has proved that there are certain propositions which are beyond proof by mathematics or logic. > People have often > tried to apply juridical knowledge to God's knowledge; and their dogmas > have killed the living metapher. I think you are talking about the imposition of belief by the state but it falls beyond any logic. > Only spirituality (which means awakening > from sleep- another metapher! ) can recognise (pratyaabhijnaa) God like > the baby recognises her mother and smiles. That is not over-riding. It is > scientific humility. I do not see it as scientific humility but a case of split personalty of some scientists who can compartmentalize their rationality. It seems many capable scientists carry out excellent logical analysis to their chosen discipline but fail to use it in their everyday life. In the language of your metaphor of sleep, some of us either never sleep or are never awakened since they fail to experience any evidence or need of spirituality. From Periannan.Chandrasekaren at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Dec 29 00:08:22 1998 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaren at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 19:08:22 -0500 Subject: Thirumaal's kutam (vessel) dance and VaaNan Message-ID: <161227044274.23782.18183477396350911683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Greetings Everyone. > [Apologies for using a different translieration scheme than what I see > commonly used here] > > > The exquisite ancient Tamil work Chilappathikaaram, when enuemerating the > eleven different > prototypical dances of the Tamil drama (pathinOru kuththugaL of n-aatakath > thamiz) > performed by Maathavi at pUmpuhaar during the In-thiran festival, > mentions that > Thirumaal (VishNu) performed the dance by the name of "Kutam" or > "kutakkUththu" > on the streets of the city governed by his adversary called "VaaNan". > kutam = vessel; kUththu = dance > > "vaaNan pEr Ur maRukitai natan-thu > n-IL n-ilam aLan-thOn aatiya kutamum" > > [Chilappathikaaram:Inthira VizavUr Etuththa kaathai: ] > > txln: > "...and the vessel dance that was perfomed by the One who scaled the > immense earth > while pacing the streets of vaaNan's great city" > > Here the phrase "the one who scaled the immense earth" refers to Thirumaal > who > performed that feat in the vaamana avathaaram. > > There is also a temple within a few miles of the coastal city of > PUmpuhaar > in a place called Thirun-AngkUr where Thirumaal's image is shaped as a > dancer > standing in a posture with his foot on top of a kutam (vessel). > > Are there any references to such an episode in Sanskrit texts at all? > And the earliest such Sanskrit text? > > Thanks > P. Chandrasekaran > > From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Dec 30 04:16:03 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 23:16:03 -0500 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <01BE325B.DB4E3120.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044331.23782.227685948496085020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 28 Dec 98, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Panavananda ???) that the BG is placed as far back as 3102 BC which was > the date for the Mahabharata war and the beginning of Kali Yuga. There is no evidence that Mahabharat is based on any real war. From the style of the book it is easier to understand it is an allegory and the fact that it has it mentions some real place names is just common today when any fiction must have a real locale. Just because a movie or fiction talks about a place which is real or of a person that may have been real does not mean the story teller has not taken liberty with twisting and exaggerating the facts. if anything the real villains of Mahabharata are the Pandvas since they resorted to more lies and injustices than Kauravs. Legalistically speaking (Dur/Su)yodhan had the right of succession to the thrown of Dhritrashtra according the accepted rules of primogeniture. Dhratrastra was the elder brother but being blind had graciously abdicated in favor his seeing but otherwise more sick younger brother Pandu who was not only impotent but had jaundice and other diseases that killed him before his older brother, who then took over the thrown in his own right with the help of his wife who was not blind or sick. In normal order of succession Dhratrsta's eldest son should have succeeded him but Pandavas were not even biological sons of Pandu were the cry babies. Even then Dhratrastra did not discriminate between his own sons and the bastard sons of his younger brother and provided the same teacher for them. It is stated that the teacher was not only a racist but also discriminated amongst his pupils. Pandavs turned out to be gamblers and polygamous and polyandrous nincompoops who did not want to earn their living honestly. During the so called war, Pandavas resorted to so many lies and deceptions but still suffered such a great loss of life that their victory was shallow at best and to consider the mastermind of these tactics to claim godliness is hypocrisy at the worst. Have a peaceful and joyous day. ?1998 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya Page me online via http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1131674 Random thought of the day: BE ALERT!!!! (The world needs more alerts ....)