From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Aug  1 00:00:24 1998
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 17:00:24 -0700
Subject: [Re: Horses in India and Mesopotamia]
Message-ID: <161227041084.23782.5090334427433416952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
You may like to view some Mesopotamian (Ur, Tell Agrab) and IVC (Chanhudaro)
images of the carts/war-chariots and an overview of Gordon Childe) at
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/html/bronzeage1.htm
There are parallels in the use of non-spoked wheels, wheels moving with the
axle and the yoke and pole fixed to the frame. Of course, onagers were used...
Regards, K.

[snip]>how could it be that there is no one pictorial> representation of a
chariot (we know that the chariot, its concept, its image > played a central
role in Vedic religion)? As for the date "1800 BC and after" -
> have not many representations of horses been found at Pirak? Have not
various > metal items of horse's harness been found on mass scale in the early
Megalithic > burials? [snip]> Chariots in the Veda. Leiden, 1983, Chapter
VI).[snip]>Yaroslav Vassilkov



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From search at HINDUSTAN.NET  Sat Aug  1 05:44:35 1998
From: search at HINDUSTAN.NET (Hindustan Search)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 98 00:44:35 -0500
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227041086.23782.17905154412254430569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Very Respected indology at liverpool.ac.uk

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From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Sun Aug  2 11:46:41 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 07:46:41 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041088.23782.15910121682758882230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv at WXS.NL> wrote:
> c^ => s^
>    => c => s
>         => T => s
>              => t

Doesn't PIE *k't become s^t in Avestan (and OP?). In the above
development, we will need a special treatment for that.

> I don't see what else it could have been: it's "sh" in Balto-Slavic
> too.  I see the Iranian developments as:

Beekes, in his recent paper (JIES) on historical phonology of
Iranian suggests that ruki-s was .s to begin with.

In the past, the there was a strong prejudice that retroflex sounds
could not occur in `real IE', and people attempted to restrict it
to Indic. Old habits die hard.




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sun Aug  2 17:32:40 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 11:32:40 -0600
Subject: Buddha in Chinese script
Message-ID: <161227041093.23782.17562629893327280521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is the word, Buddha written in Chinese in early centuries A.D.,
as Pu-ta or Po-ta?

S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884
2.233  says:
"To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-la-ka (Potalaka)."

T. Watters, On Yuan Chwang's travels in India, 1905
2.229 says:
"In the south of the country near the sea was the Mo-la-ya (Malaya)
mountain, with lofty cliffs and ridges and deep valleys and gullies,
on which were sandal, camphor and other trees. To the east of this was
Pu-ta-lo-ka (putalaka) mountain ..."

In the Malaya mountain range, there is a famous mount
called Potiyil. Its other names are Potikai and Potiyam
in tamil literature.

May be to Chinese Buddhsit ears, Potiyil was heard as
something related to Buddhaloka. To test this, I want to
know:
Is the word, Buddha written in Chinese in early centuries A.D.,
as Pu-ta or Po-ta?

Many thanks,
N. Ganesan

BTW, I checked the above two books thoroughly. Potalaka/Putalaka
is only mentioned near Malaya mountaions. In the MalakuuTa
country of the far south.

It is true that Kwan-tsz'-tsai Bodhisattva (= Avalokitesvara) is mentioned by
Xuanzang in Kapi"sa of Afghanistan also. But Potalaka/Putalaka
is not mentioned there at all. Nor is Potalaka mentioned
as the famous Buddhist sites in Andhra either.

Several scholars for the last 100 years or so, identify
Potalaka to Potiyil/Potikai. I will summarize them in the
future.




From mcv at WXS.NL  Sun Aug  2 13:27:45 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 13:27:45 +0000
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
In-Reply-To: <199808021146.HAA16746@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041089.23782.16544102646795055445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidhyanath Rao <vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU> wrote:

>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv at WXS.NL> wrote:
>> c^ => s^
>>    => c => s
>>         => T => s
>>              => t
>
>Doesn't PIE *k't become s^t in Avestan (and OP?). In the above
>development, we will need a special treatment for that.

Correct:

              1.    2.    3.
*s         =>    => h  => h
*sC        =>    =>    => s
*{ruki}s   => s^ =>    => s^
*k^        => c^ => c  => s
*k^C       => c^ => s^ => s^

>> I don't see what else it could have been: it's "sh" in Balto-Slavic
>> too.  I see the Iranian developments as:
>
>Beekes, in his recent paper (JIES) on historical phonology of
>Iranian suggests that ruki-s was .s to begin with.

Yes, but [s.] _is_ "sh"...  Unless there are two or more contrasting
kinds of shibilants in a language, it doesn't really matter if the
sound is described/realized as palato-alveolar (laminal
post-alveolar) [s^], alveolo-palatal (palatalized/domed
post-alveolar) [s'] or retroflex (apical/flat post-alveolar or
sub-apical/sub-laminal palatal) [s.].  They are all allophones of the
same basic shibilant sound /S/.

It was only when *k^ became /s'/ (laminal/domed post-alveolar) in
Sanskrit that ruki-/S/ became the retroflex (apical/flat
post-alveolar) phoneme /s./.  Same as in Polish or Mandarin Chinese
or Ubykh.

>In the past, the there was a strong prejudice that retroflex sounds
>could not occur in `real IE', and people attempted to restrict it
>to Indic. Old habits die hard.

Nonsense: English, Swedish, Sardo, Asturian, Polish and Russian are
`real European IE' and have retroflex sounds.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Sun Aug  2 20:30:54 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 14:30:54 -0600
Subject: Buddha in Chinese script
Message-ID: <161227041097.23782.14893974155391251279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The word was sometime translated sometime transliterated. When
>transliterated it of course would sound completely different in different
>parts of Chinaeven when written with same character.
>When translated it will of course only carry the meaning of awakening
>without the sound connection.
>The pronounciation of same charecters changes in time as well as locally.

  Would Xuan Zang (Hsuan Tsang) around 640 A.D.write Buddha as
  Pu-ta or Po-ta?? It does not appear that he travelled south
  of Kanchi where he stayed. He must have heard about Potiyil/Potikai from
  Kanchi or north of Kanchi.

[...]

>I am very interested if you will find more on Malaya in Sanskrit sources
>since for years I work on Lankavatara Sutra in its first (second) Chinese
>translation which in Chinese says that it is being delivered in the city of
>Lanka in Malaya mountains on the shore of the South [China] Sea.
>(I am just looking for more connections with Lankasuka kingdom [and Kedah
>inscriptions] in various Chinese sources from the early A.D.)

  I remember Dr. Jayabarathi's mentioning of Malaya, Lankasuka, ...
  Indians named many places in South East Asia after Indian placenames.
  eg., Vietnam as Amaravati, etc., This Malaya in SE Asia must be one such
  naming.

  However, Potalaka in Hsuan Tsang's narrative is said to be near the
  Malaya mountain range in the extreme South of India.
  The Malaya mountains in South India are mentioned from Ramayana
  onwards.

Dr. Anne Monius informed me:
*a variety of Chinese folktales speak of Hsuan Tsang bringing
*Potalaka mountain with him from South India and depositing it in Western
*China.

   Note that these tales also place Potalaks in the South India.
   Does the Journey to the West novel speak of Potalaka?

More later,
N. Ganesan




From wfsands at MUM.EDU  Sun Aug  2 14:48:55 1998
From: wfsands at MUM.EDU (Bill Sands)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 16:48:55 +0200
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227041091.23782.13384719037142042791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A friend of mine who is not a member of this list wonders if anyone knows
of a version of the northern recension of Mahabharata or southern recension
of the Ramayana on computer.

Thanks

--

William F. Sands, Ph.D.
Station 24
6063 NP Vlodrop
The Netherlands
Phone: (31) 475-53-9582
Fax: (31) 475-53-5575
e-mail: wfsands at mum.edu




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Aug  3 00:26:09 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 20:26:09 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041100.23782.13403328211687445277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This posting is long because I am combining respones to two postings into one.

In a message dated 98-07-30 13:49:37 EDT, vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU writes:

<< >This is what Burrow says: "Intervocalically a single unvoiced consonant in
 >Sanskrit very often replaces a double consonant in Dravidian.

 Analogical reasoning would lead us to expect single intervocalic stops
 in Dravidian loans to be voiced in Sanskrit. But there is no apparent
 pattern here. Hamp restricts F's law to l[t|th|s]. This makes the
 problem worse.

 Even in case of doubled stops, there are examples with doubled stops in
 Sanskrit also: ku.t.t, hu.dukka etc. As Drav. shows variation between
 -CC- and -C- between languages, these are best taken as reflecting the
 sound of the source langugage.>>

I do not think this particular loan phonology issue has any relevance to the
operation of Fortunatov's law and Tolkappiyar's rules we are discussing. The
point we are interested in is if a "T" in IA could be a result of the l/L+t
similar to that discussed by Tolkappiyar's rules with respect to Tamil. The
answer is yes. As I had pointed out more than once, doubling is not mandatory.

 <<>This example also shows variations between alveolar, dental and
 >retroflex.

 All the examples of variation are based on _t/_t_t. We don't see t or
 .t changing. What we see here is change in Dravidian dialects where _t
 changes to something else, and the Sanskrit borrowings reflect what
 happened in the source language. This is very different from
 `Dravidians >mis<pronunciation of alveolars as retroflexes' theory
 which implies that >all< alveolars must have become retroflexes.>>

Examples relevant to the discussion have already been given in the past.

 <<>In many colloquial situations, L does not become T before consonants
 >like k, c, and p. Malayalam which has severed its connections with
 >centamiz offers evidence for the unique nature of t vs k, c, and p.

 The trouble is that these are attested at a much later date. The
 presence of words like `kalki' shows that -lk- is acceptable in Modern
 Tamil. But that tells us nothing about the situation in early First
 Millennium BCE.>>

I am amazed at the logical inconsistency here. Vidynath bases his view of n,
n2, N convergence on a situation in Pittsburgh much farther removed in time
and space than the South Asian Malayalam. See below the excerpt from his post
in the other thread "Re: Retroflexion in IA".(The Malayalam examples used have
been attested at least a few hundred years earlier than modern Pittsburgh
dialects.) If one can base one's conclusion about convergence in early First
Millennium BC in South Asia on a situation prevailing in Pittsburgh, cannot
one base one's conclusion about L+t >T on a situation in Kerala in South Asia,
that too a few hundred years earlier?

 <<Anyway, quoting Tolkappiyam (how old is that name?)
 for one part of the argument and rejecting it elsewhere leaves
 something to be desired.>>

There is no inconsistency here. Please see my posting related to diglossia.
Also see the next note.

 <<Analogical restoration is a known process. We need to be sure that it
 did not happen here, i.e. that -lk- etc were possible in proto-Dravidian,
 but that -lt- > _t_t and -Lt- > -.t.t-. The standard sources have nothing
 about morpho-phonemics of proto-Dravidian. If we rely on Tolkappiyam
 instead, the troulbe remains.>>

There is no trouble here. Please see Leavitt's paper for a discussion of all
the rules. Tolkappiyar himself gives a special treatment for the dentals.

<< We have been talking only about .t. But, there has been no attempt to
 explain how Dravidian with its n/_n vs .n contrast could lead to n/_n
 phoneme being split into n vs .n. I have not seen any reason to change
 my view that convergence should in fact lead to collapsing of all
 distinctions.>>

Please see below the discussion of Vidynath's posting in the other thread.

<<>but in this case I fail to see why the merging of all n's would be the
>necessary outcome of convergence.

I based this on something I read about dialect interactions. My laziness
in keeping a notebook has come back to haunt me: I cannot locate the
book where I read it. [This was specifically about Pittsburg dialect.]
The basic argument is as follows: Dialect A distinguishes two phonemes P
and Q. Dialect B does not. Speakers of B rely on context etc. to tell
the words apart. This works even if P and Q are pronounced differently.
But speakers of A rely only on the sound and have trouble understanding
B-speakers. With repeated interaction, A-speakers start relying on context
to tell words apart. So the difference between P and Q becomes irrelevant.

Given the distributional peculiarities in Dravidian, the same argument
should work for n. In Dravidian, n occurs word-initially and before t;
_n everywhere else. Sanskrit anu would come out a_nu. If Sanskrit speakers
hear it as a.nu, then the anu vs a.nu distinction is lost. The same
works in reverse. [I don't know PDr lexion, so I will use Tamil.] Tamil
pa_ni and pa.ni will come out the same from Sanskrit speaker's mouth. In
both cases, the speakers must rely on context to distinguish the words,
leading to the irrelevance of the phonemic distinctions.>>

There are several problems with these assertions.
First of all, the phonology of Tamil n given by Vidynath is wrong. n can occur
medially -intervocalically as well as doubled. It can also occur in the word-
final position as in "verin".

Secondly, if this theory were true, IA in India should not have maintained any
phonemic distinction of voiced and unvoiced stops. (PDr did not have such
contrasts. But apparently IE did.)

 <<And nobody has even touched .s, the most commonly retroflexed sound in
 Sanskrit. I see no way of getting there from s-hacek. And why would
 Dravidian, with prominent lack of sibilants in the earliest stages
 lead to a split in sibilants? I am yet see any one pick up this
 gauntlet.>>

Kuiper (Aryans in the Rig Veda, p. 26) says "On the basis of class. kaluSa-
'turbid' : Tamil kalUz- 'to become turbid' it has been suggested that class. S
can sometimes stand for the Dravidian retroflex /.r/, for which in Roman
script the symbols _l, L, ..l, .r, ..r and .z are in use." Dravidianists also
posit a dialectal alternation of *-c- and *-z- in PDr itself. The similarity
between Dravidian z and Sanskrit S has been noted by Bh. Krishnamurti. BhK
says, "This may suggest that a dialectal (less probably positional) variant of
*c-, having a phonetic value similar to Skt. S was replaced by z with a later
dialect mixture which produced two series of correspondences in the same
language." (Telugu Verbal Bases, p.48) Thus at least in some Dravidian
dialects, there was a sound similar to S.

 <<In sum, it is quite premature to assume that Dravidian origin of
 retroflexes is established fact. If you have not explained .s, you have
 explained nothing about the origin of retroflexes in IA.
 <FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3> >>
I leave it to IE scholars if this statement is justified. Further, even if
internal development did occur, what was so unique about South Asia that an
internal development was able to sustain itself at such a level as in South
Asia? Madhav Deshpande noted in his article in "The Indo-Aryans of Ancient
South Asia" that " The contacts with non-Aryans outside India did not lead to
retroflexion either in the Indo-Iranian dialects, or in the pre-Indo-Iranian
(r-and-l) dialects. The retroflexing influence was manifest in India." To me
biology gives an analogy. Genetic mutations can occur spontaneously all the
time. But only certain mutations which give some advantage towards survival of
the species in an environment get passed on in the long term. In the case of
retroflexion, whatever independent or spontaneous developments there might
have been in IA in common with IE, they were able to become permanent features
in South Asia because of the presence of prior retroflexion prevailing in
South Asia. This is my view.

In any case, I do not have any emotional attachment to the origin of IA
retroflexion one way or other. I have presented some evidence which has not
been noticed till now and which can be used by scholars with the objective of
pursuit of truth. As I cannot devote more time to this discussion, I wish
others good luck.

Regards
S. Palaniappan
</PRE></HTML>




From erpet at COMP.CZ  Sun Aug  2 18:46:42 1998
From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 20:46:42 +0200
Subject: Buddha in Chinese script
Message-ID: <161227041095.23782.10525861066209582399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Ganesan
The word was sometime translated sometime transliterated. When
transliterated it of course would sound completely different in different
parts of Chinaeven when written with same character.
When translated it will of course only carry the meaning of awakening
without the sound connection.
The pronounciation of same charecters changes in time as well as locally.
There were dozens of charecters with differrent pronounciation used to
transcribe the word as well as transliterate and especially before the Tang
dynasty. You would have to know the location in China as well as the exact
time to be able to reconstruct the pronunciation.

>May be to Chinese Buddhsit ears, Potiyil was heard as
>something related to Buddhaloka.

It is very possible. Chinese would care much more for the tone and the
initial consonant than for the wovel.
There is no difference in modern Chinese between P and B. They use the
letter P now for what was in time of Watters written P'.
What is now in Modern Standard Mandarin (Beijing Dialect)  pronounced FO in
second tone [Buddha] was in 6th century in the same area  pronounced [BUT]
(international phonetic alphabet - not BUT as in English) in tenth cent.
A.D. something like [fhut] ( i cannot use IPA in email) and in 14th [FU].
That is for northern dialect, which formed the basis for the standard
pronounciation.
The same character is ALSO  in today Modern Standard Mandarin pronounced FU
in the second tone which will however have no impact on early Middle Chinese
pronounciation [BUT] (IPA). It is again only one of the many translitaration
that ware used and the one that survived till now.

I am very interested if you will find more on Malaya in Sanskrit sources
since for years I work on Lankavatara Sutra in its first (second) Chinese
translation which in Chinese says that it is being delivered in the city of
Lanka in Malaya mountains on the shore of the South [China] Sea.
(I am just looking for more connections with Lankasuka kingdom [and Kedah
inscriptions] in various Chinese sources from the early A.D.)
Sincerely
Petr Mares




From erpet at COMP.CZ  Sun Aug  2 21:26:16 1998
From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 23:26:16 +0200
Subject: Buddha in Chinese script
Message-ID: <161227041099.23782.9073967773740852586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The word was sometime translated sometime transliterated. When
>transliterated it of course would sound completely different in different
>parts of Chinaeven when written with same character.
>When translated it will of course only carry the meaning of awakening
>without the sound connection.
>The pronounciation of same charecters changes in time as well as locally.
  Would Xuan Zang (Hsuan Tsang) around 640 A.D.write Buddha as
  Pu-ta or Po-ta?? It does not appear that he travelled south
  of Kanchi where he stayed. He must have heard about Potiyil/Potikai from
  Kanchi or north of Kanchi.
Dear Mr. Ganesan
I am not at all expert on the 6th century China neither on Xuan Zang's Ta
Tang Xi Yu Ji (he traveled much later than Lankavatara was first
translated).
I have the the Yi Jing and Fa Xian's travel diaries in Chinese here but
unfortunately not the Xuan Zang's Ta Tang Xi Yu Ji. If I see the Character
he used for Buddha I can tell you its 7th century pronounciation in Northern
China. If nobody else will tell you before I will know after I visit
University Library where I saw XuanZang in Chinese some time ago.
Waters was using Modern Standard pronounciation in kind of Wide-Gilles
transcription (even that not correctly) not considering that  characters
were pronounced very differently 1300 years ago.
I have small part of his translation here where he shows some chinese
characters for places.
The first of the four characters of what Waters in his book mentions as
P'o-ta-li-pu would in 7th century Northern China from where Xuan Zang came
sounded almost certainly BA ( meaning "old lady").
The first of the four character that  Waters transcribes as P'o-ta-li-tzu
(should be Po in his transcription) would in 7th century N. China according
to original character sound PA (ipa transcription) (meaning "wave").

I have just a very small part of Waters translation and he does not show the
character for Buddha there. If you know see the character anywhere in the
book I can tell you its 6th cent. pronouncition. Otherwise I will have to
look into Xuan Zang original sometime next week.
There is a wanderfull article on location of Lanka of Ramyana in one of the
recent Journal of American Oriental Society considering many places where it
could have been. And Ceylon is I remember not taken in account, neither is
South India. This is not much of my field (India) but in the article are
mentioned many studies placing the Lanka of Ramayana variously to Western
Ghats, Eastern Coast and many other places.
I wander why the story of Lankavatara is first time being connected with
Ravana (and e.i. Ramayana) only in its second and third translation starting
from 6th century  (the first translation only mentions the Malaya mountains
and Lanka City=Kingdom)
  >However, Potalaka in Hsuan Tsang's narrative is said to be near the
  >Malaya mountain range in the extreme South of India.
  >The Malaya mountains in South India are mentioned from Ramayana
  >onwards.
>Dr. Anne Monius informed me:
>*a variety of Chinese folktales speak of Hsuan Tsang bringing
>*Potalaka mountain with him from South India and depositing it in Western
>*China.
   Note that these tales also place Potalaks in the South India.
   Does the Journey to the West novel speak of Potalaka?
I have not read the novel. But there are English translationa, one I think
by Arthur Waley, so you can check it.

More later,
Petr Mares




From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU  Mon Aug  3 11:45:31 1998
From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 06:45:31 -0500
Subject: Buddha in Chinese script
In-Reply-To: <01J04QN18FHU00JJH9@cl.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041102.23782.7985274931145962226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>  Would Xuan Zang (Hsuan Tsang) around 640 A.D.write Buddha as
>  Pu-ta or Po-ta??

By the seventh century in China Buddha was commonly written as the
character fo (BUT by the old pronunciation; still Butsu in Japanese
pronunciation). Xuanzang used that character.


Dan Lusthaus
Florida State University




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Mon Aug  3 17:14:09 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 09:14:09 -0800
Subject: Learning Skt, Pkt, Marathi privately in India
Message-ID: <161227041108.23782.16481145135792201057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There have occasionally been inquiries on this list concerning where in India one should go to study Sanskrit, Pali, Prakrit or some modern language on a private or personal basis. In that context I would like to share the following information. I have just learned that Prof. Krishna S. Arjunwadkar is available to teach students coming to India for such a purpose. 

Prof. Arjunwadkar can be contacted at 1192 Shukrawar Peth, Pune 411 002, India (Phone 47 94 19 / 48 73 80. e-mail: <panini at pn2.vsnl.net.in>). He is a retired professor of Sanskrit and Marathi (linguistic studies), having orientation in old Sanskrit tradition and modern university education,author of several books and about 200 articles and creative pieces for varying readership, having teaching experience of over 40 years at various levels and extensive exposure in India and abroad. In my view, he would be an excellent guide for  research students in ;saastras as well as for students wishing to gain knowledge of Sanskrit, Prakrit and Marathi at any level. His areas of specialization are:  Sanskrit language and literature; philosophy in Sanskrit tradition, particularly Vedanta; Sanskrit poetics and prosody; spoken Sanskrit; Marathi linguistic studies.




From erpet at COMP.CZ  Mon Aug  3 10:54:19 1998
From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 12:54:19 +0200
Subject: Malaya, Lanka,, Patala?
Message-ID: <161227041104.23782.7309929659806615323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Ganeshan (and anybody else interested)

Very interesting article by prof. U.P. Shah of Oriental Institute of Boroda
in JAOS 96.1 "The Salakatankatas of Lanka" made me change my believe about
the location of Malaya, Patala and Lanka recently. I know not about Sanskrit
language neither literature as much as anybody in this list being
specialised in Chinese. So I would like to hear your opinion.

This article mentions Raamayaana, Uttarakaanda, sargas 4-15. Where Agastya
speaks to Rama. It is sayd that Sandhya (Saalakatankataa) and Vidyutkesa had
son Sukesha, who with his wife had three childs MALAYAvanta, Sumali and
Mali. (to me it reminds Meru, Sumeru and Malaya since Chinese do not
differentiete between "L" and "R"). These thre asked Vishvakarma for a place
of residence and he said he made already for them "LANKA" on top of the
middle peak of Trikuta-parvata on the bank of southern ocean.(Uttaara.,
sarga 7). This place was called "Lanka-durga". This place will almost agree
with place of Lankavatara sutra. These raakshasas vanquished by Vishnu,
deserted later the city and went to stay in PATALA (sarga 8). They were the
predecessors of Kubera and Ravana.

Prof. Shah says, that there is no ancient reference identifying Lanka with
Ceylon, nor any archeological evidence in Ceylon (article was written in
1976) and than he cites various modern scholars and their research regarding
the Lanka of Ramayana and Salakantankatas tribe. He says that it was pointed
out already by T Paramasiva Iyer in "Ramayana and Lanka, 1940" thet the
Lanka of the Ramayana is a city built built on the Trikuta -parvata amd not
at all island like Ceylon. Varaahamihaara in Brhatsamhita, adhyaya 14
mentions Lanka and Simhala as two different regions.

Place prevailing in the article as possible location is near Jabalpur, near
Amarakantaka in modern Madhya Pradesh, (generally place where ancient Gonds
were living)

But since the name Salakatankata does not sound Indoeuropean and since
Valmiki does not have fair knowledge of geograpfy and culture of South India
(beyond the Vindhyas) (as stated by H. D. Sankalia in "Ramayana, myth or
reality", 1973 Delhi pp 17-18) I wander what the consequencies can be with
regard to Lankasuka in Malaya peninsula.

In Mahaabhaarata, Malayan product is sandalwood oil, it is the same product
mentioned by Xuan Zang in Malaya mountain 1000 years later

In Satapatha Brahmana Manu's ark is said to come to rest in on Malaya
Parvatas a peak in the northern mountains, the present Western Ghats, when
the flood waters, which covered the continent where the Indian Ocean now
lies, subsided.

Prof Ramachandra Dikshitar identifies Malaya of 48th chapter of Vaayu
Puraana (close to Xuan Zang in time) with Sumatra, since nearly all the
mountains in India mentioned in Vaayu Purana have their counterparts in
Sumatra's West Coast.


I cannot judge any of these but I would like very much to hear opinion of
some of the scholars here on locating the Malaya  mountain and Lanka Kingdom
within the Buddhist community of the early centuries AD.

Regarding the Buddha transcription of Xuan Zang:

>In your university library, please check what Xuan Zang
>has written on Potalaka.
I will as soon as I can.


>Pl. send it as character by character.
I guess you mean "send it as it was pronounced in 6th century-transcribed to
phonetic script such as IPA. I cansend you the chinese characters but unless
you have chinese  system on your computer you will not see it. I can also
send the characters as images but will it help to you to see the glyphs?

The question of yours is complicated by the fact that although at sixth
century certainly more than 10.000 characters were in use many of them had
more then one pronounciation, from which one may have been reserved for
transcription of foreign words, The second difficulty is the nature of
Chinese language at all. An example: Chinese are now transcribing France Fa
Guo, Deutschland De Guo, America Mei Guo (mei- beautifull, Guo country) they
often want to transcribe and transliterate at once and it may shift the
sound.

>How does PA (IPA) sound? In an English word. Can you
>give me an example of an English word?
In IPA (intl. phonetic alphabet) B is voiceless bilabial (made by two lips)
plosive. It will sound as english B in [bad]

>How does BA (IPA) sound? Pl. give an English example.
in IPA, P is voiced bilabial plosive.
A is open front wovel. in these cases in a level tone (in contrast to EMC
(Early Middle Chinese) Rising, Departing and Entering tones)
It will sound as English P, but not like P of modern Chinese transcription
which sound like Ph. Chinese P and B in modern translitarations differ just
in aspiration, same pays for T and D.

It may sound all too complicated, but it is due to the nature of chinese
script, not very suitable for carrying sound.

Just for your reference, bilabials in early middle chinese (6th century) are
as follows P PH B M

I have just found in between my material some parts of the Xuan Zang
original writing in Chinese (Taisho 2087). I have here his preface, 10th
11th and 12th Fasciculi. Unfortunately these three Fasciculy are usualy
regarded by Chinese scholars as  either later additions or not genuine.
They are mentioned as not to be written by Bian Ji, who compiled Xuan Zang's
descriptions into Xi Yu Ji.

I remember it was the reason I abonded Xuan Zang writing as important
regarding Malaya and studied other sources, since the fasciculi 10 is where
Xuan Zang speaks about Malaya and Potalaka.

In just a brief looking I see that he transcribes the word Buddha as F02,
character, which would in 7th century Northern Dialect sound BUT1.

To study the writting more deeply would require a considerable time, but I
can give you a brief look into any part which is contained in 10th to 12th
Fasciculy and which seems obscure or wrong in Watters if you are interested.

Sincerely

Petr Mares




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Aug  3 20:01:18 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 16:01:18 -0400
Subject: Potter's wheel in the Indus valley
Message-ID: <161227041106.23782.11299342715606330996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anybody have any information about whether the potters of the Indus
culture had discoid wheels or spoked wheels? Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Aug  4 07:03:01 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 12:33:01 +0530
Subject: Aryan migration archive?
Message-ID: <161227041109.23782.2852276077928125903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik,

Is there already an INDOLOGY archive available of the recent "Aryan
migration" debate? I've noticed that Hindutva people are trying to
get their foot into other Internet forums too, and it would be nice
if one could give a reference to an archive rather than write out
and repeat the same refutations that were already given here.

RZ






From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU  Tue Aug  4 20:41:25 1998
From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 15:41:25 -0500
Subject: Frog Hymn Article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.980505210058.164948E-100000@yellow.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041111.23782.12873573032885528378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I thought that Gautama V. Vajracharya's 1997 (?) Frog Hymn (RV 7.103)
article "The Adaptation of Monsoonal Culture by Rgvedic Aryans: A Further
Study of The Frog Hymn" was part of Elect. Jnl. of Vd. St. but when I go
to this site, only 1995 seems to be there, and the searcher claims to have
heard of neither him, nor frogs, nor Monsoons, --

Does soemone know where this article exists online?

TYIA

___________________
John Robert Gardner
http://vedavid.org/
____________________________________________________
Obermann Center             The Graduate College
for Advanced Studies        Gilmore Hall
University of Iowa          University of Iowa
319-335-4034                319-335-2144
http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
____________________________________________________
"Never give up.  Never give up.  Never give up."
                        "Commencement Address" (complete text)
                        W. Churchill




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Wed Aug  5 02:32:10 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 07:32:10 +0500
Subject: Book on Socio-linguistics by Prof.Bh.Krishnamurti
Message-ID: <161227041113.23782.10201591233183947677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A collection of selected essays on socio-linguistics and dilectology
published in various journals and books between the years 1962 to 1995
by Prof.Bh.Krishnamurti has been brought out in the form of a book by
Sage Publications under the title

                 "LANGUAGE, EDUCATION AND SOCIETY"

The essays are grouped under three catogories

I Language Variations ( Regional and Social ) and Dilectology

II Language:Policy, Planning and Developement

III Language in Education

Total Pages: 327
The Indian Price is Rs.475/-

Copies can be had from

Sage Publications India Pvt.Ltd.                Sage Publications Inc
32-M Block Market                               2455 Teller Road
Greater Kailash - I                             Thousand Oaks
New Delhi - 110 048                             California 91320

                        Sage Publications Ltd.
                        6 Bonhill Street
                        London EC2A 4PU


regards,

sarma.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Aug  5 22:03:44 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 15:03:44 -0700
Subject: Bhairava on coin
Message-ID: <161227041120.23782.909284157800578620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I have a gold coin from southern India possibly minted in 11th to 13th
>century AD by a Telugu-Choda chief (called themselves Bhujababala) who
most
>likely was feaudatory of W. Chalukyas.

Do you mean E. Chalukyas of Vengi in Andhra Pradesh? Because -

1. The Telugu-Chodas, as the name indicates, were a branch of the
Tanjavur Colas, and they ruled around the Nellore region. It seems
improbable for them to have been feudatories of the Western Calukyas.
They must have been allied either to the Colas or to the Eastern
Calukyas. In any case, both these major dynasties were getting closely
allied through matrimonial relations.

2. The time period 11th to 13th c. is too vast. In the 10th and early
11th c., the Colas from Tanjavur were the biggest power in the south,
with kings like Rajaraja and Rajendra. Western Calukyas had been reduced
to the status of local chieftains by this time. The more important power
that was rising in the western region of south India was the Hoysala
dynasty. By the end of the 11th c., Kulottunga Cola had united the Cola
dynasty and the Eastern Calukya dynasty in his person. The Telugu Codas
were definitely vassals of Kulottunga, as long as he lived. They are
known to have rebelled in the time of his son, but were again subdued by
Vikrama Cola. In the 13th c., the Tanjavur Colas had been subdued by the
Madurai Pandyas in the south, who were allied militarily and
matrimonially with the Hoysalas from Karnataka. It was around this time
that the Telugu Codas became more independent and issued their own coins
and inscriptions.

Perhaps a narrower time frame can be obtained if you figure out the name
of the chieftain who issued the coin. Isn't there an x-gaNDagopAla or a
y-siddhi somewhere in it? These were frequent among the Telugu Codas. A
period can be fixed by identifying the prefixes.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Aug  5 20:08:57 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 16:08:57 -0400
Subject: Indology participants
Message-ID: <161227041117.23782.12444533509005574408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indology seems to have very little traffic nowadays. So, this may a good time
to ask this question which has been at the back of my mind for sometime.

If I am not mistaken, the geographical distribution of Indology participants
of Indian origin seems to be abnormal in one sense. Most seem to be from the
pancadrAviDa area. The rest of India seems not to be well represented. Is
there an explanation for this?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Aug  5 23:41:52 1998
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 16:41:52 -0700
Subject: Nine Planets (Nava Graha)
Message-ID: <161227041122.23782.16783902410124608463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is one reference that will also lead to others:

Pingree, David.  Indian Planetary Images and the Tradition of Astral Magic.
Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes vol. 52, 1989:1-13.

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley


At 06:09 PM 8/5/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear members,
>
>As a student in master's degree in Indian Art
>History and Archeology in Paris (Sorbonne),
>I am working on the iconography of the
>Nine Planets (Nava Graha).
>I am looking for bibliographical references
>and any information on this topic.
>
>Every answer will be welcome.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Magali Vacherot
>
>




From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU  Wed Aug  5 21:22:38 1998
From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Nupam P Mahajan)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 17:22:38 -0400
Subject: Bhairava on coin
Message-ID: <161227041119.23782.12916199441765439599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members,

I joined this list just a week back and found discussions quite
interesting. I am a collector of ancient and medieval Indian coins
and have a website dedicated for them. I invite all of you to visit
it and let me know what you think about it. Any criticism and/or
advice would be welcome. The address is as follows:

http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html

I have a gold coin from southern India possibly minted in 11th to 13th
century AD by a Telugu-Choda chief (called themselves Bhujababala) who most
likely was feaudatory of W. Chalukyas. On the coin one can read the old
Telugu-Kanarese inscription  which reads "Bhairava". I have two questions:

1. Does the inscription that I read is correct? The image of this coin
is available at my webpage in subsection of southern Indian coins.
(http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/postg1.html)

2. What is meaning/s of word Bhairava apart from being name of Lord
Shiva?

Thanks,

With best wishes,

Nupam


Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D.
Room 230, CB#7295
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill, NC 27599
USA
Fax: 919-933-5455




From latapy at ECOLEDOC.LIP6.FR  Wed Aug  5 16:09:05 1998
From: latapy at ECOLEDOC.LIP6.FR (Matthieu LATAPY)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 18:09:05 +0200
Subject: Nine Planets (Nava Graha)
Message-ID: <161227041115.23782.4349792559889778719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members,

As a student in master's degree in Indian Art
History and Archeology in Paris (Sorbonne),
I am working on the iconography of the
Nine Planets (Nava Graha).
I am looking for bibliographical references
and any information on this topic.

Every answer will be welcome.
Thanks in advance.

Magali Vacherot




From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU  Wed Aug  5 20:59:37 1998
From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Dr. Nupam Mahajan)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 20:54:37 -0005
Subject: Bhairava on coin
Message-ID: <161227041123.23782.18346505208858739912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr.Sundaresan

This coin was debated among few of my friends and it was generally
agreed that it was issued by Bhujbalas. The style of this coin
ruling in Nellore region of modern Andhra pradesh and Bolangir
district of modern Orissa state issued coins in the name of Bhujabalas
or Bhujavalas (literally strong armed ones).  On this coin there is
a legend in Kanarese/Telugu which reads :Bhairava". The question
is if Bahirava is the name of the ruler who issued the coin
or it suggest the name of deity of ruler's fancy. Alternately, do
we know any Telugu Choda ruler whose name or title was Bhairava?

This is an uniface gold coin with four punches (in similar style as that
of Yadava and Kakatiya dynasties with Devnagri or Telugu-Kanarese
inscription). Two punch marks create two "Shri" alphabates in Telugu which
depicts lord Vishnu. The third punch mark correspond to the Telugu
inscription on this coin which reads "Bhairava". Apart from inscription,
there is a triangular motif which most likely represents temple or crown
mark with Ankush. This triangular motif was peculiar to Chalukyas of
Kalayani. There are no other legends. The image of coins is available at:
http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/postg1.html

Thus, as you can see, it is bit difficult to assign the coin to any
specific ruler of Bhujabala dynasty. I tentatively assigned 11th-13th
century for this coin because of the above reason.

Regards,

Nupam


Dr. Nupam Mahajan, PhD
School of Medicine, CB#7090
Dept of Cell Biolody & Anatomy, UNC
Chapel Hill, NC 27599
Tel: 919-966-6316
http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html



>
> Do you mean E. Chalukyas of Vengi in Andhra Pradesh? Because -
>
> 1. The Telugu-Chodas, as the name indicates, were a branch of the
> Tanjavur Colas, and they ruled around the Nellore region. It seems
> improbable for them to have been feudatories of the Western Calukyas.
> They must have been allied either to the Colas or to the Eastern
> Calukyas. In any case, both these major dynasties were getting closely
> allied through matrimonial relations.
>
> 2. The time period 11th to 13th c. is too vast. In the 10th and early
> 11th c., the Colas from Tanjavur were the biggest power in the south,
> with kings like Rajaraja and Rajendra. Western Calukyas had been reduced
> to the status of local chieftains by this time. The more important power
> that was rising in the western region of south India was the Hoysala
> dynasty. By the end of the 11th c., Kulottunga Cola had united the Cola
> dynasty and the Eastern Calukya dynasty in his person. The Telugu Codas
> were definitely vassals of Kulottunga, as long as he lived. They are
> known to have rebelled in the time of his son, but were again subdued by
> Vikrama Cola. In the 13th c., the Tanjavur Colas had been subdued by the
> Madurai Pandyas in the south, who were allied militarily and
> matrimonially with the Hoysalas from Karnataka. It was around this time
> that the Telugu Codas became more independent and issued their own coins
> and inscriptions.
>
> Perhaps a narrower time frame can be obtained if you figure out the name
> of the chieftain who issued the coin. Isn't there an x-gaNDagopAla or a
> y-siddhi somewhere in it? These were frequent among the Telugu Codas. A
> period can be fixed by identifying the prefixes.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Aug  6 05:36:34 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 22:36:34 -0700
Subject: Bhairava on coin
Message-ID: <161227041125.23782.14318191133606792700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bhujabalas
>or Bhujavalas (literally strong armed ones).  On this coin there is
>a legend in Kanarese/Telugu which reads :Bhairava". The question
>is if Bahirava is the name of the ruler who issued the coin
>or it suggest the name of deity of ruler's fancy. Alternately, do
>we know any Telugu Choda ruler whose name or title was Bhairava?

I'm not a numismatics expert, but is there concrete evidence to equate
the bhujabalas with the Telugu Codas? It's hard to say whether there was
a Bhairava among the Telugu Codas. In the 12th-13th c., there were names
like Nallasiddha, Tammusiddha, Vijayagandagopala, Rajagandagopala etc.
Still, they are a quite minor family, not very well studied, although
they claimed descent from karikAla cozha of cankam fame.

>there is a triangular motif which most likely represents temple or
crown
>mark with Ankush. This triangular motif was peculiar to Chalukyas of
>Kalayani. There are no other legends.

Wasn't the motif ever used by the Eastern Calukyas? They were, after
all, cousins of the Western Calukyas, being descended through
Vishnuvardhana, brother of Pulakesin II of Badami. And the Eastern
branch had a more continuous history than the Western branch. The latter
folks came under the sway of the Rashtrakutas for more than a century,
and had to abandon Badami and regroup in Kalyani.

I only find it hard to believe that the Telugu Codas in Nellore were
feudatories of the W. Calukyas, when there were other, stronger powers
in their own neighbourhood, who would have wanted to bring this region
under their sphere of control.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU  Thu Aug  6 14:18:23 1998
From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Dr. Nupam Mahajan)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 10:18:23 -0400
Subject: Bhairava on coin
In-Reply-To: <19980806053634.7848.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227041126.23782.17305664632797748170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Wasn't the motif ever used by the Eastern Calukyas?

This is a possibility which I have overlooked. I shall look into it and
shall get back. Unfortunately, unlike many of the northern dynastic
coinage, medieval southern dynasties never bothered to write complete
names or titles on the coins. They were simply happy with few specific
puches corresponding to their dynasty. If there were legends, they were
very short (after all, there was hardly much space left after all those
multiple punches on a flan of a coin of 4 gms).

Nupam


Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D.
Room 230, CB#7295
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
UNC, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA

Fax: 919-933-5455
http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Thu Aug  6 14:42:07 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 10:42:07 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041128.23782.1670230168129185920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>

[To keep the post within reasonable bounds, I will limit myself to the
general points.]

>I am amazed at the logical inconsistency here. Vidynath bases his view
>of n, n2, N convergence on a situation in Pittsburgh much farther
>removed in time and space than the South Asian Malayalam.

You are confusing two different things, namely general processes and the
specific initial conditions where/when they come into play. It is a
basic principle of all science that general processes should be same
(i.e, similar causes should lead to similar effects). It is easier to
observe them in contemporary situations (or labs), which is why they are
used in theoretical discussions. But when we apply the theory to
specific situations, we need to pay close attention to the initial
conditions. [The reference I have in mind dealt with other examples too.
I mentioned Pittsburgh because that is only book I have seen which dealt
with it in detail and I was hoping that somebody else will know which
book it is.]

>First of all, the phonology of Tamil n given by Vidynath is wrong. n can
>occur medially -intervocalically as well as doubled. It can also occur
>in the word- final position as in "verin".

What I said concerning the phonology of Dravidian in general is based
on Zvelebil's Comparative Dravidian Phonology, pp. 113-114. `verin'
seems to be from a pre-form in -nt-. The forms with -n- are isolated
and do not contradict the fact that n and _n belong to the same
phoneme.

>Secondly, if this theory were true, IA in India should not have
>maintained any phonemic distinction of voiced and unvoiced stops.

The same problem, as I have pointed out before, affects the claim that
retroflexes are due to Dravidian speakers mispronouncing alveolars.

Regarding the presence of .s in Dravidian: The nature of Dr .z or
whatever you want to call it is still a matter of much discussion. But
very few people consider it to be a shibilant. Nor does it seem to
cause retrolfexion of following t. [It does not in Tamil.]

In borrowings, .s sometimes becomes `zh', other times .t.
In reverse, Dr `zh' is sometimes l (phala < pazham), other times
.l/.d (Tamil cozha is co.da already in a vartika, presumably for co.la).

The evidence for c/zh alternation seems to admit other explanations.
See CDP pp 129--130.

It is not true that retroflexes are not found in other IE languages.
Deshpande's assertion (in the same paper) that pre/proto-Dravidian must
have lacked retroflexes before it entered India and must be
attributed to some non-Dravidian substratum is symptomatic of the
prejudice which I mentioned elsewhere, and to me, vitiates the whole
argument.

This ties in nicely with what Vidal wrote, in response to another post
of mine:

>>In the past, the there was a strong prejudice that retroflex sounds
>>could not occur in `real IE', and people attempted to restrict it
>>to Indic. Old habits die hard.

>Nonsense: English, Swedish, Sardo, Asturian, Polish and Russian are
>`real European IE' and have retroflex sounds.

I am not sure what is characterized as `nonsense'. If it is the belief
of special connection between India and retroflexion, I agree fully. If
it the claim that such prejudice is not totally dead, I think that you
need to read more widely.

Regards
-Nath




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Aug  6 20:07:27 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 13:07:27 -0700
Subject: Bhairava on coin
Message-ID: <161227041130.23782.5642188382715101699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nilakantha Sastri's History of South India (4th ed., Oxford University
Press) talks of a hoard of Telugu Coda coins that was discovered early
this century (p. 5-7). Someone somewhere (Altekar, T. A. Gopinatha Rao,
H. Krishna Sastri?) must have done an analysis of them. It might help to
check for references on this.

Vidyasankar

ps. Wonderful website, by the way. Congratulations.

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From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Aug  7 01:28:23 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 18:28:23 -0700
Subject: Bhairava on coin
Message-ID: <161227041131.23782.15513680183720334556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nupam Mahajan writes:

>I have a gold coin from southern India possibly minted in 11th to 13th
century AD by a Telugu-Choda chief (called themselves Bhujababala) who
most likely was feaudatory of W. Chalukyas. On the coin one can read the
old Telugu-Kanarese inscription  which reads "Bhairava". I have two
questions:


2. What is meaning/s of word Bhairava apart from being name of Lord
Shiva?


The word Bhairava can mean "formidable", "frightening" and is given as a
synonym of viSNu by Monier Williams. Since you have refered to viSNu's
presence already in the coin, this may be an epithet for viSNu
(I'm no numismatist, but am just guessing).



   I however read something very interesting in your section on South
Indian coins( for which you certainly deserve a chorus of
congratulations). While detailing the exploits of kr*SNadevarAya, you
mention that he constructed the "hazara" temple. Are you refering to
the hazara rAmasvAmi temple in Warangal? As I remember it, this temple
is older and dates back to the days of the kAkatIya dynasty. I am
requesting you for details about the "hazAra temple". May I also ask you
for information about the importance of vizAkhapaTnam in the exploits of
kr*SNadevarAya? AFAIK, the town was insignificant until the days of the
East India company which saw the advantages of the
harbor here. ( Throught out the 16th and 17th centuries, vizAkhapaTnam
was simply regarded as a part of the Asifnagar province which was
headquartered near Behrampur and was just the midway point between the
Asifnagar and Murtazanagar( headquartered in Rajamundry) provinces.


Regards,
Krishna



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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Aug  7 02:05:06 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 19:05:06 -0700
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041135.23782.8384769431546409576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>My own feeling is that until the time comes when Dravidian
>gets the same level of attention from the scholarly world as IA gets,
any
>explanation regarding Indian pre-history will remain problematic. I do
not see
>the situation changing any time soon.
>

My dear Palaniappan,

Your assumption is that the scholarly motivation is to explain *Indian*
pre-history, as opposed to I-A or I-Ir or I-E pre-history. So long as
this is not satisfied, Dravidian will not receive the same level of
attention. That is why your prediction will come true.

>As for the Hindutva folks, their arguments about Indian pre-history are
marked
>by appalling ignorance about the Dravidian side. Of course, they are a
lot
>more sure of their positions than scholars like Deshpande.

Indeed. Forget pre-history, which involves a lot of careful
reconstruction from often meagre leads. Even the recorded history of the
south is not very well-known, is it?


Vidyasankar


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From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Aug  7 01:33:26 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 21:33:26 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041133.23782.11225931888942632895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Because of some basic problems in Vidynath's posting, I decided to add this
final note to this thread.

In a message dated 98-08-06 10:43:25 EDT, vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU writes:

<< You are confusing two different things, namely general processes and the
 specific initial conditions where/when they come into play. It is a
 basic principle of all science that general processes should be same
 (i.e, similar causes should lead to similar effects).>>

Having been familiar with the scientific method, I am yet to see a clear
explanation of why using Pittsburgh dialect situation to draw conclusions
about first millennium BC Sanskrit-Dravidian convergence on nasals should be
deemed qualitatively different from using Malayalam to draw conclusions about
the fate of stops after l/L.

<< What I said concerning the phonology of Dravidian in general is based
 on Zvelebil's Comparative Dravidian Phonology, pp. 113-114. `verin'
 seems to be from a pre-form in -nt-. The forms with -n- are isolated
 and do not contradict the fact that n and _n belong to the same
 phoneme.>>

Zvelebil's discussion of n vs. n2 occurs in pp.129-30 and not in pp.113-114 of
CDP, 1970, Mouton. (I think Vidynath has the page references switched.) As for
Zvelebil's views, they are wrong and outdated. I do not know how anybody
familiar with Classical Tamil can say they are part of the same phoneme. P. S.
Subrahmanyam in his Dravidian Comparative Phonology, 1983, pp. 380-382
demonstrates the PDr contrast of n vs. n2. I do not know what Vidynath means
by "isolated forms". Any cursory examination of CT texts and even post CT
texts will show forms with -n- are not isolated.

P.S.S notes, "The Old Tamil material on the occurrence of the dental n in non-
initial positions has been collected and analysed by S. V. Shanmugam (1972).
According to him, the words that contain the dental n (in positions other than
initial and before t) fall into three types: (i) participial nouns in which
the n is the non-past marker; (ii) nouns derived from other nouns by the
addition of -n-ar, and (iii) nouns in which the n has no morphemic value.....

Of all the evidence, that of the non-past dental suffix is very strong for
reconstructing the contrast between the dental and the alveolar nasals to
Proto-Dravidian." (pp.381-382)

I wish people would pay the necessary attention to Dravidian material and
especially Classical Tamil material before they make categorical statements
about the nature of Dravidian or relationship between IA and Dravidian of the
early first millennium BC.

 <<>Secondly, if this theory were true, IA in India should not have
 >maintained any phonemic distinction of voiced and unvoiced stops.

 The same problem, as I have pointed out before, affects the claim that
 retroflexes are due to Dravidian speakers mispronouncing alveolars.>>

The fact that the contrasts are maintained in IA shows that the theory is not
valid at least as far as South Asia is concerned. In short, it is not a
"general" principle like Newton's laws.

 <<Regarding the presence of .s in Dravidian: The nature of Dr .z or
 whatever you want to call it is still a matter of much discussion. But
 very few people consider it to be a shibilant. Nor does it seem to
 cause retrolfexion of following t. [It does not in Tamil.]

 In borrowings, .s sometimes becomes `zh', other times .t.
 In reverse, Dr `zh' is sometimes l (phala < pazham), other times
 .l/.d (Tamil cozha is co.da already in a vartika, presumably for co.la).

 The evidence for c/zh alternation seems to admit other explanations.
 See CDP pp 129--130.>>

I think Vidynath is referring to pp.113-114. Those other explanations do not
deny a dialectal similarity between z and S.  Kuiper derives Skt. kavaSa
(straddle-legged) from Dravidian related to Ta. kavar, kavalai, and kavaTu
(fork of legs)  in Aryans in Rig Veda, p.26.  While Kuiper notes the absence
of the form kavaz in Dravidian, if one takes into account Stephen Levitt's
findings, one can see how a kaval >*kavaz/*kavaL which can lead to kavaSa in
Sanskrit and with a dental suffix, one can get kavaTu in Tamil.

 <<It is not true that retroflexes are not found in other IE languages.
 Deshpande's assertion (in the same paper) that pre/proto-Dravidian must
 have lacked retroflexes before it entered India and must be
 attributed to some non-Dravidian substratum is symptomatic of the
 prejudice which I mentioned elsewhere, and to me, vitiates the whole
 argument.>>

I am sure Deshpande can speak for himself. But, in the article, what I find
Deshpande to be saying is this. "One may also speculate whether Dravidian
itself acquired retroflexion after entering India through contact and
convergence with pre-Dravidian populations." I do not think this can be called
an assertion.

One sad aspect which should be noted here in connection with this Aryan --
non-Aryan issue is the virtual absence of participation of Dravidian
specialists. For example, in the whole book edited by George Erdosy, there is
not a single article by a Dravidian scholar.  So, I would attribute any
speculation by Deshpande not to any prejudice but a desire on the part of a
genuine scholar to get at some explanation for a fact he feels has not been
explained well. My own feeling is that until the time comes when Dravidian
gets the same level of attention from the scholarly world as IA gets, any
explanation regarding Indian pre-history will remain problematic. I do not see
the situation changing any time soon.

As for the Hindutva folks, their arguments about Indian pre-history are marked
by appalling ignorance about the Dravidian side. Of course, they are a lot
more sure of their positions than scholars like Deshpande.

That is all I have to say.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Aug  7 18:16:11 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 11:16:11 -0700
Subject: Indology participants
Message-ID: <161227041137.23782.8171061266618028674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Palaniappan writes:
>If I am not mistaken, the geographical distribution of Indology
participants
>of Indian origin seems to be abnormal in one sense. Most seem to be
from the pancadrAviDa area. The rest of India seems not to be well
represented. Is there an explanation for this?>>

AFAIK, there are many reasons:-) but let us just restrict ourselves to
the politically correct one..the distribution of states that are
over-represented are also over-represented in terms of representation
in the USA( generically speaking outside India). It is not very often
that one sees people from the Hindi heartland outside India. Therefore
if interest in Indology is a uniformly distributed function, one would
expect to see more samples from over-represented states in the overall
sample.

regards,
Krishna


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From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Fri Aug  7 19:05:29 1998
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 12:05:29 -0700
Subject: Indology participants
Message-ID: <161227041140.23782.6242302188279069946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---S Krishna  wrote:
>
> Palaniappan writes:
> >If I am not mistaken, the geographical distribution of Indology
> participants
> >of Indian origin seems to be abnormal in one sense. Most seem to be
> from the pancadrAviDa area. The rest of India seems not to be well
> represented. Is there an explanation for this?>>
>
> AFAIK, there are many reasons:-) but let us just restrict ourselves to
> the politically correct one..the distribution of states that are
> over-represented are also over-represented in terms of representation
> in the USA( generically speaking outside India).
> Krishna

  I am amazed that an astute observer and Ann Arbor resident such as
Gopi Krishna is so blissfully unaware of this institution called
Patel Stores (the Indian grocery chain in the US) ;-)))

Warm Regards.


==
Lakshmi Srinivas





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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Aug  7 19:49:12 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 12:49:12 -0700
Subject: Bhairava on a coin
Message-ID: <161227041144.23782.156216784673163225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Also see

T. Balakrishnan Nayar,
The Dowlaishweram hoard of eastern Chalukyan and Chola coins.
Madras : Printed at Solar Works for the Director of Stationery
and Printing, Govt. of Madras, 1966. Series title:  Bulletin
of the Madras Government Museum. New series, general section;
v. 9, no. 2.

Vidyasankar

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From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Aug  7 19:43:23 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 13:43:23 -0600
Subject: Bhairava on a coin
Message-ID: <161227041139.23782.10809324920080717910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Will the following help to locate the ruler's name or title?

G. Satyanarayana Rao, The Telugu Chodas of Kanduru,
New Era, Madras, 1987

N. Ganesan




From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU  Fri Aug  7 20:14:52 1998
From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 14:14:52 -0600
Subject: Aryan migration archive?
Message-ID: <161227041142.23782.5253606893105536017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. R. J. Zydenbos wrote:
>Is there already an INDOLOGY archive available of the recent "Aryan
>migration" debate? I've noticed that Hindutva people are trying to
>get their foot into other Internet forums too,[...]

Ask them to use any search engine for the word Indology.
All postings are stored from 1990 in Indology discussion archive.
Let them see for themselves.

But the problem is HindutvavAdins also know all this.
Especially the book writers, many of them are from South,
do not like to hear from the West that Sanskrit entered
India, that too after the peaks of IVC had been reached.
This upsets many things socially!

They keep on rehashing the same things -
Missionary motives of Max Mueller, one clay figurine
is a horse for them. People say it might be a donkey
or onager!

Can the Missionaries come back alive and apologize
for fixing the date of the Veda or that Dravidian
is not a derivative of Sanskrit?

Just wondering,
N. Ganesan




From gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Sat Aug  8 18:13:33 1998
From: gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Gautama Vajracharya)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 98 13:13:33 -0500
Subject: Frog Hymn Article
Message-ID: <161227041145.23782.6604436361818139950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear John Gardner,
For my article on the Frog Hymn, write to the editor of Elect.Jnl. of Vd.
St.  His email address is <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU>  He will release the
article for you when you subscribe the journal.
Sincerely,
Gautama Vajracharya

At 03:41 PM 8/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I thought that Gautama V. Vajracharya's 1997 (?) Frog Hymn (RV 7.103)
>article "The Adaptation of Monsoonal Culture by Rgvedic Aryans: A Further
>Study of The Frog Hymn" was part of Elect. Jnl. of Vd. St. but when I go
>to this site, only 1995 seems to be there, and the searcher claims to have
>heard of neither him, nor frogs, nor Monsoons, --
>
>Does soemone know where this article exists online?
>
>TYIA
>
>___________________
>John Robert Gardner
>http://vedavid.org/
>____________________________________________________
>Obermann Center             The Graduate College
>for Advanced Studies        Gilmore Hall
>University of Iowa          University of Iowa
>319-335-4034                319-335-2144
>http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
>____________________________________________________
>"Never give up.  Never give up.  Never give up."
>                        "Commencement Address" (complete text)
>                        W. Churchill
>




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sat Aug  8 23:13:57 1998
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 98 16:13:57 -0700
Subject: Copies of journal articles
Message-ID: <161227041147.23782.11237509338959151679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear INDOLOGY members,

Those of you (individuals or organizations) who are interested in looking
for and getting copies of journal articles, especially if you don't have
access to a good interlibrary borrowing service, might want to take a look
at the website of The UnCover Company:

http://uncweb.carl.org/

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From bprecia at COLMEX.MX  Mon Aug 10 16:17:56 1998
From: bprecia at COLMEX.MX (Benjamin Preciado)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 11:17:56 -0500
Subject: question on the word "ratha"
Message-ID: <161227041153.23782.17754992138248046645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Palaniappan
Could you please give me the e-address of the Cologne online lexicon you mention in your message? Thanks and congratulations for your learned postings.
Benjamin Preciado

-----Mensaje original-----
De:     Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [SMTP:Palaniappa at AOL.COM]
Enviado el:     Mi?rcoles 29 de Julio de 1998 11:57 AM
Para:   INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Asunto: question on the word "ratha"

In the Cologne online Digital Lexicon, the word "ratha" is given the following
meanings.

ratha
Meaning1 m. (4. %{R}) `" goer "' , a chariot , car , esp. a two-wheeled war-
chariot (lighter and swifter than the %{anas} q.v.) , any vehicle or equipage
or carriage (applied also to the vehicles of the gods) , waggon , cart RV. &c.
&c. (ifc. f. %{A}) ; a warrior , hero , champion MBh. Katha1s. BhP. ; the body
L. ; a limb , member , part L. ; Calamus Rotang L. ; Dalbergia Ougeinensis L.
; = %{pauruSa} L. ; (%{I}) f. a small carriage or waggon , cart S3is3

The word "tariratha" is given the following meaning.

tariratha
Meaningm. `" boat-wheel "' , an oar L.

Has the word "ratha" been used in Sanskrit texts to refer to the wheel per se
instead of the chariot/wagon? Is the meaning "wheel" found in Vedic?

Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan
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From girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM  Tue Aug 11 20:28:42 1998
From: girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM (Girish Sharma)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 13:28:42 -0700
Subject: Kanakadhaaraastotram verse
Message-ID: <161227041151.23782.14355974015720453685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could someone please help me understand the derivation
and meaning of k.r.sii.s.ta in the following verse.
Thank you.

i.s.taavi"si.s.tamatayo.api yayaa dayaardra-
d.r.s.tyaa trivi.s.tapapada.m sulabha.m labhante|
d.r.s.ti.h prah.r.s.takamalodaradiiptiri.s.taa.m
pu.s.ti.m k.r.sii.s.ta mama pu.skaravi.s.taraayaa.h| 9||

9. By which Eye moist with compassion, even those
with minds not possessed of desires obtain a suitable
place in the three worlds,
that Eye of the One seated on a lotus,
whose beauty delights the lotus-naveled One,
<k.r.sii.s.ta?> my desired wealth.

-------------------------------------------------------

Girish Sharma
San Diego, CA
girish at mushika.wanet.com




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Tue Aug 11 19:32:20 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 15:32:20 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041148.23782.16001004871548146432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv at WXS.NL> wrote:
> *s         =>    => h  => h
> *sC        =>    =>    => s
> *{ruki}s   => s^ =>    => s^
> *k^        => c^ => c  => s
> *k^C       => c^ => s^ => s^

I missed this point till now.

The change c^ -> c cannot be later than the second palatalization (change
of PIE *k/*k-super-w to c^ before e/i) which must have preceded the
merger of e/o/a. So, under the above scenario, the merger of e/o/a must
be later than the split of Indian from Iranian.

I find this quite incredible.




From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Tue Aug 11 19:34:19 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 15:34:19 -0400
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041150.23782.8659353154557019569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have finally located the book I had in mind. It is V. Labov
``Principles of linguistic change; vol. 1, internal factors'',
Blackwell, Oxford UK & Cambridge USA, 1994. The general principle
(Herzog's P.) that mergers tend to expand at the expense of
distinctions is discussed in chapter 11, pp. 313--331.

I switched the page references to CDP, due to my sloppy notes. I
apologize for any confusion this may have caused.

--
Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

>Having been familiar with the scientific method, I am yet to see a clear
>explanation of why using Pittsburgh dialect situation to draw conclusions
>about first millennium BC Sanskrit-Dravidian convergence on nasals should be
>deemed qualitatively different from using Malayalam to draw conclusions about
>the fate of stops after l/L.

This is hardly the place to discuss the Uniformatarian Principle in
general or its use in linguistics since the Neogrammarians. Labov has a
good discussion of the whole thing, with further references, to which I
refer those not already familiar with the ideas.

>As for Zvelebil's views, they are wrong and outdated.

Both Zvelebil in his `Inroduction to Dravidian lingusitics' and
DEDR, written well after 1972, maintain that n and _n are allophones
for Dravidian as a whole. Knowing nothing about North and Central
Dravidian or non-literary languages of South, I defer to them.

>Kuiper derives Skt. kavaSa (straddle-legged) from Dravidian related to
>Ta. kavar, kavalai, and kavaTu (fork of legs)  in Aryans in Rig Veda,
>p.26.  While Kuiper notes the absence of the form kavaz in Dravidian, if
>one takes into account Stephen Levitt's findings, one can see how a
>kaval >*kavaz/*kavaL which can lead to kavaSa in Sanskrit and with a
>dental suffix, one can get kavaTu in Tamil.

There are too many assumptions here for my taste. In any case, kava.sa
does not mean straddle-legged. Perhaps kava.saa+uuruu does, but that is
not clear. kava.sya.h occurs as an adjective to dura.h in MS 3.11.1 and
3, KS 38.6 and 8, VS 20.40 etc, where it seems to mean open.

Can somebody with access to the new Mayrhofer tell us what he has about
this? [I have access only to KEWA.]

This weak evidence must be set against the following two facts: One, zh
does not seem to retroflex a following t in Dravidian. [it certainly
does not in Tamil.] Second, and more serious, is that in MIA, starting
with Pali, all sibilants merge into s while in syntax we see greater
convergence with Dravidian, and greater retroflexion in stops. I am yet
see any explanation of this (other than what I proposed).

---
>As for the Hindutva folks, their arguments about Indian pre-history are
>marked by appalling ignorance about the Dravidian side. Of course, they
>are a lot more sure of their positions than scholars like Deshpande.

I guess there is a modified version of Godwin's law for Indology: If any
discussion lasts long enough, somebody will mention Hindutva/Parivar etc.
I thought that we successfully avoided that. Sigh.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Aug 12 01:02:23 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 21:02:23 -0400
Subject: question on the word "ratha"
Message-ID: <161227041155.23782.14739727505769913468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 98-08-11 17:15:54 EDT, you write:

<< Could you please give me the e-address of the Cologne online lexicon you
mention in your message? Thanks and congratulations for your learned postings.
>>

Thanks for your kind words.

Here is the address you wanted.

http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/gopher.e.html

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Aug 12 08:00:12 1998
From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 01:00:12 -0700
Subject: Search for a book by Swami Sahajananda Saraswati
Message-ID: <161227041159.23782.1751114183805152398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

I'm having some difficulty locating a book by Swami Sahajananda Saraswati
titled "Brahmar.si-vam"sa-vistaara". Swami Sahajananda was a peasant
activist during the 1920s-50s who wrote extensively about the Bhumihar
Brahmans. In that context he talked of the Sarayuparin Brahmans, which is
what I am interested in.

I searched OCLC but could not find this title. I did, however, come across
his autobiography, titled "Meraa jiivana sa"nghar"sa". If anyone knows of
this text, or whether a particular library possesses a copy of it, I would
really appreciate being contacted.

Thank you.

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey




From thillaud at UNICE.FR  Wed Aug 12 04:35:42 1998
From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 06:35:42 +0200
Subject: Kanakadhaaraastotram verse
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980811132842.006f2dd4@mailhub1.wanet.net>
Message-ID: <161227041157.23782.11955754770804964602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A compound with iSTa could be "the One who is desired as field" but I don't
know any other such compound. Perhaps a mistake for kRSISTha "best of the
fields", comparatives can be formed from nouns, like brahmiSTha (and
Homeric basileuteros "better king", basileutatos "best of the king").
In both cases the meaning could be "in You, I would like to grow".
Not sure. Trying to help,
Dominique

>Could someone please help me understand the derivation
>and meaning of k.r.sii.s.ta in the following verse.
>Thank you.
>
>i.s.taavi"si.s.tamatayo.api yayaa dayaardra-
>d.r.s.tyaa trivi.s.tapapada.m sulabha.m labhante|
>d.r.s.ti.h prah.r.s.takamalodaradiiptiri.s.taa.m
>pu.s.ti.m k.r.sii.s.ta mama pu.skaravi.s.taraayaa.h| 9||
>
>9. By which Eye moist with compassion, even those
>with minds not possessed of desires obtain a suitable
>place in the three worlds,
>that Eye of the One seated on a lotus,
>whose beauty delights the lotus-naveled One,
><k.r.sii.s.ta?> my desired wealth.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>Girish Sharma
>San Diego, CA
>girish at mushika.wanet.com


Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Aug 12 09:05:28 1998
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 11:05:28 +0200
Subject: Kanakadhaaraastotram verse
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980811132842.006f2dd4@mailhub1.wanet.net>
Message-ID: <161227041161.23782.7292140318734861821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

k.r.sii.s.ta is obviously a 3. sg. aatmanepadam precative (or benedictive)
of the root k.r: "may him make". See M. R. Kale, A Higher Sanskrit Grammar,
#587 (p.358). The form is rare, of course. Whitney, Sanskrit Grammar, #925
b (p. 328) says: "The precative middle is virtually unknown in the whole
later literature, not a single occurrence of it having been brought to
light." So this seems to be a discovery!

Georg v. Simson


>Could someone please help me understand the derivation
>and meaning of k.r.sii.s.ta in the following verse.
>Thank you.
>
>i.s.taavi"si.s.tamatayo.api yayaa dayaardra-
>d.r.s.tyaa trivi.s.tapapada.m sulabha.m labhante|
>d.r.s.ti.h prah.r.s.takamalodaradiiptiri.s.taa.m
>pu.s.ti.m k.r.sii.s.ta mama pu.skaravi.s.taraayaa.h| 9||
>
>9. By which Eye moist with compassion, even those
>with minds not possessed of desires obtain a suitable
>place in the three worlds,
>that Eye of the One seated on a lotus,
>whose beauty delights the lotus-naveled One,
><k.r.sii.s.ta?> my desired wealth.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>Girish Sharma
>San Diego, CA
>girish at mushika.wanet.com




From lasic at OEAW.AC.AT  Wed Aug 12 09:27:37 1998
From: lasic at OEAW.AC.AT (Horst Lasic)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 11:27:37 +0200
Subject: Kanakadhaaraastotram verse
Message-ID: <161227041163.23782.16154639933131429104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Girish Sharma wrote:
>
> Could someone please help me understand the derivation
> and meaning of k.r.sii.s.ta in the following verse.
> Thank you.
>
> i.s.taavi"si.s.tamatayo.api yayaa dayaardra-
> d.r.s.tyaa trivi.s.tapapada.m sulabha.m labhante|
> d.r.s.ti.h prah.r.s.takamalodaradiiptiri.s.taa.m
> pu.s.ti.m k.r.sii.s.ta mama pu.skaravi.s.taraayaa.h| 9||
>
> 9. By which Eye moist with compassion, even those
> with minds not possessed of desires obtain a suitable
> place in the three worlds,
> that Eye of the One seated on a lotus,
> whose beauty delights the lotus-naveled One,
> <k.r.sii.s.ta?> my desired wealth.

Dear Girish Sharma,

maybe some considerations may help you. Considering the context, I would
expect k.r.sii.s.ta to be a finite verb (not a nomen as Dominique Thillaud
seems to suggest). Further, I expect to find the expression of a wish.
On the morphological level -ii.s.ta looks like a precative ending (3 sg of
the middle voice), -s- seems to be an augment. k.r should belong to the root
k.r (to make). Remains the question which stem the precative is formed of. I
guess, it is formed from an aorist stem (but that is my usual guess whenever
I cannot explain a finite verb).

Horst Lasic




From mcv at WXS.NL  Wed Aug 12 17:46:11 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 17:46:11 +0000
Subject: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
In-Reply-To: <199808111932.PAA13693@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <161227041166.23782.5572864454922566411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidhyanath Rao <vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU> wrote:

>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv at WXS.NL> wrote:
>> *s         =>    => h  => h
>> *sC        =>    =>    => s
>> *{ruki}s   => s^ =>    => s^
>> *k^        => c^ => c  => s
>> *k^C       => c^ => s^ => s^
>
>I missed this point till now.
>
>The change c^ -> c cannot be later than the second palatalization (change
>of PIE *k/*k-super-w to c^ before e/i) which must have preceded the
>merger of e/o/a. So, under the above scenario, the merger of e/o/a must
>be later than the split of Indian from Iranian.
>
>I find this quite incredible.

It depends on the exact phonetics of Proto-Indo-Iranian.

Clearly, the satem and the ruki-phenomena are the oldest, as they are
shared by Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic and Armenian.  For "proto-satem"
(proto-East-Indo-Eropean), we can assume:

PIE    PEIE
*k^ >  *c^  (satem)
*ke >  *k^e (palatal allophone of /k/ before e, i)
*s  >  *s
*rs >  *s^  (or *is, *us, *ks: RUKI-s)


In Indo-Iranian we have:

PIE   PEIE   Avest  Skt
*k^   *c^    s      s'
*ke   *k^    c^     c^
*s    *s     h      s
*rs   *s^    s^     s.

After the (Indo-Iranian) merger of e/a/o, PEIE *k^ (i.e. PIE *k, *kw
before *e, *i) became phonemic rather than allophonic.  But was it
already [c^] or simply [k^]?  If it was [c^], then PIE *k^ (the satem
sound) must have already been something else in PII, probably *s',
from which it follows that RUKI-s was already *s. ("retroflex"
shibilant) in PII:

PIE   PII
*k^   *s'  (> s in Iranian)
*ke   *c^
*s    *s   (> h in Iranian)
*rs   *s.

[PII == Skt. in this analyis, at least for these four sounds]

On the other hand, if we reconstruct *k^ (palatalized [k]) for PIE
*ke/i, *kwe/i, we get:

PIE   PII
*k^   *c^  (> s' in Skt., > c > s in Iranian)
*ke   *k^  (> c^ in Skt, Iranian)
*s    *s
*rs   *s^  (> s. in Skt.)

Both options are possible.

The same two analyses are possible for Balto-Slavic, where we have:

PIE    Balt  Slav  PBS?
*k^    s^    s     c^ ~ s'
*ke    k     c^    k  ~ k  (allophonically: [k^])
*s     s     s     s  ~ s
*rs    s^    x     s^ ~ s.

We know the 2nd. palatalization in Slavic is recent.  Ruki-s has
shifted back to /x/ in Slavic, which must have happened under the
influence of satem-*k^ becoming /s^/, which means that it wasn't /s^/
initially.  What was it?  The two likely candidates are /c^/ and /s'/
(and consequently, RUKI-s becomes either /s^/ or /s./).


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From mcv at WXS.NL  Wed Aug 12 19:24:39 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:24:39 +0000
Subject: SV: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
In-Reply-To: <01BDC62C.AC8B1A60@ti01a24-0124.dialup.online.no>
Message-ID: <161227041170.23782.5517136097575772624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:

>The fact that a certain phenomenon is shared by some languages does not exclude
>the possibility that they occurred independently in some of  - or all of - the
>languages. How do we know that the changes are not independent?

Indeed.  We know that for instance the change *k(w)e > c^e is
independent in Slavic (c^etyre), Indo-Iranian (catva:ra-) and
Armenian (c^'ork') [PIE *kwetwores "4"].  This is very common sound
change, which makes it unsurprising that it should have happened
independently many times over.  The "satem"-change (*k^ becomes some
kind of s(h)ibilant) is just as common and trivial, but there are
reasons to believe that this change was not independent, but affected
a single dialect of IE.  This has to do with the fact that the
"satem" languages have several other things in common, things that
less trivial.  One of them is the RUKI-rule (*s > /s^/ after i, u, r,
k (and H?)).  This makes it more likely that we are dealing with a
set of shared innovations, and that it is probably justified to speak
of a "satem" subgroup of IE (on the other hand, there is no "centum"
group: those are just the languages that fail to be "satem").

But there can't be 100% certainty: the satem-change might have
happened in all these languages independently.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Aug 12 20:05:34 1998
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 20:05:34 +0000
Subject: SV: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041168.23782.16806913251395645756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have a question regarding these sound changes:

>The change c^ -> c cannot be later than the second palatalization (change
>of PIE *k/*k-super-w to c^ before e/i) which must have preceded the
>merger of e/o/a. So, under the above scenario, the merger of e/o/a must
>be later than the split of Indian from Iranian.
>
>I find this quite incredible.

It depends on the exact phonetics of Proto-Indo-Iranian.

Clearly, the satem and the ruki-phenomena are the oldest, as they are
shared by Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic and Armenian.  For "proto-satem"
(proto-East-Indo-Eropean), we can assume:

The fact that a certain phenomenon is shared by some languages does not exclude the possibility that they occurred independently in some of  - or all of - the languages. How do we know that the changes are not independent?


Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse
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From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Wed Aug 12 16:50:11 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 21:50:11 +0500
Subject: Kanakadhaaraastotram verse
Message-ID: <161227041164.23782.5577334331933165541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:28 PM 8/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Could someone please help me understand the derivation
>and meaning of k.r.sii.s.ta in the following verse.
>Thank you.
>
>i.s.taavi"si.s.tamatayo.api yayaa dayaardra-
>d.r.s.tyaa trivi.s.tapapada.m sulabha.m labhante|
>d.r.s.ti.h prah.r.s.takamalodaradiiptiri.s.taa.m
>pu.s.ti.m k.r.sii.s.ta mama pu.skaravi.s.taraayaa.h| 9||
>
>9. By which Eye moist with compassion, even those
>with minds not possessed of desires obtain a suitable
>place in the three worlds,
>that Eye of the One seated on a lotus,
>whose beauty delights the lotus-naveled One,
><k.r.sii.s.ta?> my desired wealth.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>Girish Sharma
>San Diego, CA
>girish at mushika.wanet.com
>
>

According to Prof.P.Sreeramachadrudu, Retired Head of the Department
of Sanskrit, Osmania University, Hyderabad, kRSISTa is the AzIrliG
form (benediction) of root kR (to do). The meaning of last line will be
"May the look of the one who sits on the lotus do (= give) nourishment
to me."

regards,

sarma.




From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE  Wed Aug 12 21:36:16 1998
From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 22:36:16 +0100
Subject: SV: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
Message-ID: <161227041172.23782.2255353145411450065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:

>Indeed.  We know that for instance the change *k(w)e > c^e is
>independent in Slavic (c^etyre), Indo-Iranian (catva:ra-) and
>Armenian (c^'ork') [PIE *kwetwores "4"].  This is very common sound
>change, which makes it unsurprising that it should have happened
>independently many times over.  The "satem"-change (*k^ becomes some
>kind of s(h)ibilant) is just as common and trivial, but there are
>reasons to believe that this change was not independent, but affected
>a single dialect of IE.  This has to do with the fact that the
>"satem" languages have several other things in common, things that
>less trivial.  One of them is the RUKI-rule (*s > /s^/ after i, u, r,
>k (and H?)).  This makes it more likely that we are dealing with a
>set of shared innovations, and that it is probably justified to speak
>of a "satem" subgroup of IE (on the other hand, there is no "centum"
>group: those are just the languages that fail to be "satem").

Wouldn't it be better then to speak of "rooky" IE? (since satm includes
Albanian)




From mcv at WXS.NL  Thu Aug 13 06:17:06 1998
From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 06:17:06 +0000
Subject: SV: Fortunatov's Law and tolkAppiyar's rules
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b1f7b96a9e1d@[195.74.194.11]>
Message-ID: <161227041173.23782.15625862430107399184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE> wrote:

>Wouldn't it be better then to speak of "rooky" IE? (since satm includes
>Albanian)

Yes, "ruki" in principle would make a better diagnostic than "satem".
However, the term "satem-group" is traditional, and there are a few
problems with the RUKI-rule.  Because it affects less words than the
satem-rule, and because PIE *s has suffered other changes over time
in the different languages, it is quite easy to determine that
Albanian and Armenian are satem, but less easy to determine whether
they are RUKI.  I know little about Albanian, but from the sound laws
as given in Beekes' "Comparative IE Linguistics", it is impossible to
determine whether Albanian is a RUKI-language or not:

*s => sh- (initially before unstressed vowel: shtate" < s(ep)tmti- 7)
   => gj- (initially before stressed vowel: gjashte" < sek^sti- 6)
   => sh  (before consonant: asht "bone" < *Host-)
          (between vowels: jeshe" < esa < esm "I was")
   => zero (before resonants, final: mi < muHs "mouse")

If Albanian was RUKI, the evidence has disappeared, either because
other instances of *s became sh, or because both normal *s and
RUKI-*s disapeared in certain positions.

The case of Armenian is even more complex, as the RUKI-ness of
Armenian and the fate of PIE *s in Armenian in general are linked to
the old problem of the origin of the Armenian plural in -kh.  The
cluster -rs appears in Armenian as <r.> (/rr/), presumably by way of
/rs^/.  Final -is and -us appear as -r in some words, while we have
<k> in cases like <mukn> "mouse" (< *mu:s) and <jukn> "fish" (<
*dhghu:s), and -k` (aspirated /kh/) as the plural marker (from *-es
or from *-u:s < *-o:s ?).  But normally, *s (RUKI or not) becomes /h/
or disappears (e.g. nu "sister-in-law" < *hnuh < *snuso-).


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam




From girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM  Thu Aug 13 20:02:13 1998
From: girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM (Girish Sharma)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 13:02:13 -0700
Subject: Kanakadhaaraastotram verse
Message-ID: <161227041177.23782.3345232330536927057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you to everyone who contributed answers to
my question about k.r.sii.s.ta in the Kanakadhaaraastotram verse.


-------------------------------------------------------

Girish Sharma
San Diego, CA
girish at mushika.wanet.com




From barathi at PC.JARING.MY  Thu Aug 13 12:30:33 1998
From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 20:30:33 +0800
Subject: Bhairava on coin
Message-ID: <161227041175.23782.1739753883916113337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 05:22 PM 8/5/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Dear Members,
------------cut
>http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html
>
>I have a gold coin from southern India possibly minted in 11th to 13th
>century AD by a Telugu-Choda chief (called themselves Bhujababala) who most
>likely was feaudatory of W. Chalukyas. On the coin one can read the old
>Telugu-Kanarese inscription  which reads "Bhairava". I have two questions:
---------------------cut
>
>2. What is meaning/s of word Bhairava apart from being name of Lord
>Shiva?

        Dear Dr.Nupam,

                Though belated, I thought it appropriate to
        provide $0.02 input on the above subject.

                Bhairava is commonly known as the terrifying and
        fierce aspect of Siva. Apart from it there is one more
        meaning to the name also.
                Worship of Bhairava became one of the sub-sects of
        Saivism and was quite prevalent about one and a half millenia
        ago.Bharavism had its own doctrines and tenets with rituals.
        Certain agamas and Tantras belonged to this sect.
                The followers of Bhairavism were also known as the
        "Bhairava"s. The name was more commonly applied to the Yogins
        of the Bhairava cult.
                At one time, they were a common sight in Tamilnadu.
        along with the Kapalikas, KaLamukhas, Pasupathas, and the
        MahaViradhis.
                In fact, in the Periya PurAraNam, in the chapter on
        "CiRuththoNdar nAyanAr purAnNam", Siva appears as a Yogin
        belonging to the Bhairava sect.

                He is denoted as,
                        "thudi sEr karaththu bayiravar"
                        "periya bayirava kOlap perumAn"
                        "parivu kaNdu bayiravarum"
                        "periya bayiravath thoNdar"

                These Bhairava Yogins weilded great power and influence
        and were the preceptors to some kings. Their influence was
        very great in the Malay Peninsula. In this place, the Shaktha cult
        and the Bhairava Siva worship reigned supreme. Their influence
        is still to be seen in certain of the Black Magic Rites performed
        by the Malay Sorcerers.
                Some kings who were followers of the Bhairava cult also
        called themselves as the "Bhairava"s. Some of them even adopted
        the "Skull-Humerus" combination called the "KatvAnga" as their
        insignia. (No! The "Phantom" does not belong to the Bhairava
        Cult. Nor does Blue Beard the Pirate, who flew the "Jolly Roger"
        flag - skull and cross bones!)
                Certain important temples had deep Bhairava influence.
                One of them was the "Ira - OttIswarar" temple. This
        name was slurred into "IrOttIsWaram". Finally, the name was
        further corrupted into "Irode" or "Erode" as it is known today.
                The female Yoginis of the Bhairava Sect were known as the
        "Bhairavis". Bhairavas and Bhairavis are around in various parts
        of India, even today. Some of the Bhairava rituals have passed
        into some special pujas.
                In certain of these pujas, large numbers of stray dogs
        make their appearance from somewhere. When the offerings are
        made to them, they accept the offerings and eat them with
        great discipline. Then they depart to whence they came from,
        until no dog remains.
                Some Bhairavas and Bhairavis can be identified when
        they are seen accompanied by dogs.
                The dog, as you know, is the vehicle of Bhairava, and
        the DEvata GAyatri for SrI Bhairava, addresses Him as,
        "SuvAnadhvajAya  vidmahe"

                Coming to the question of the coin, such coins have
         been found  in the Nellore, Godavari regions.  Some of them
         bear similar motifs. Almost all of them bear the letter "Shri"
        in at least two places - just as your coin does.
                In fact Dr.Parameshwari Lal Gupta's book titled "Coins"
        describes them. They are the coins No. 192 - 203 in the photo-plates.
                They are grouped under the Telegu/Chalukya and
        associated coins. They have not been identified specifically.
        It could have been Vengi Chalukya, or Telegu Choda coin.
        The Vengi Chalukya coin sometimes would have the "Wild Boar"
        emblem - the Varaha Lancana.

                The Triangular motif is actually a dagger. Its not
         a gopura.

        Regards

        Jayabarathi

>
>Thanks,
>
>With best wishes,
>
>Nupam
>
>
>Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D.
>Room 230, CB#7295
>Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
>University of North Carolina
>Chapel Hill, NC 27599
>USA
>Fax: 919-933-5455
>
>
 ========================================================================




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Aug 15 17:35:47 1998
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 98 10:35:47 -0700
Subject: Mitanni treaty and date of the Rigveda
Message-ID: <161227041179.23782.6190100132017340481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
In the WAVES (World Association of Vedic Studies) conference in
LA between Aug. 7 to 9, one point came up which may be of interest to
indologists.

This is in reference to the well-known Boghaz Keui inscription (dated to 14th
cent. BC) of a treaty between Hittite King Suppiluliuma and Mitanni king
Matiwaza, invoking Indra, Mitra, Na_satya and varun.a as witnesses. In the
archives of the Hittite capital has been found a treatise which deals with
horse-training and tems used are: ekavartana, trivartana, pan~cavartana. T.
Burrow (1955, The Sanskrit Language, London, Faber and Faber, p.29) notes:
'The Aryans appear in Mitanni from 1500 BC as the ruling dynasty, which means
that they must first have entered the
country as conquerors.'

The question is: Conquerors from where? Around 1500 BC, there was
no other region where the above-mentioned gods were worshipped,
except the Indian sub-continent.

Kalibangan on the banks of the Sarasvati celebrated in the Rigveda, was
abandoned ca. 1900 BC due to the drying up of the river.

Does this event and Mitanni evidence push the date of the Rigveda
to antedate 1900 BC?

Regards,
Dr. S. Kalyanaraman
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Aug 18 14:49:39 1998
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 07:49:39 -0700
Subject: Self-immolation
Message-ID: <161227041180.23782.7432761277769711433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Few months ago, Mary Storm was writing of her dissertation topic:
sculptures in Srisailam showing self-mutilation, head offerings
etc., Pallava and Chola sculptures are also referred to.
There is a book: N. Subrahmanian, Self-immolation in Tamil
country. Also, the funerary temples, called PaLLippaTai,
for 3 Chola kinngs and ine Chola Princess are known.
The learned Chola scholar, Sri. S. R. Balasubrahmanyam's
suggestions of a possible link to Southeast Asian funerary monuments
was cited.


Here is some comparative material:
R. M. Gimello, Relics andd Flesh bodies,
The creation of Ch'an Pilgrimage sites
in the book,  Pilgrims and Sacred sites in China, 1982, U. Calif.
p.166
"Major relics such as the tooth or finger bone of the Buddha became
the object of a fervent cult in China. In 819, the Confucian Han Yu
wrote his famous memorial to protest against the periodic transfer
of the finger bone from the Fa-men monastery to the capital and
the collective frenzy it occasioned. As we know from Han Yu's
account and various other resources, an important aspect of the
cult of relics was self-immolation or self-mutilation ..."

Jan Yun-hua, Buddhist self-immolation in medieval China,
History of Religions, 4, p. 243-268, 1965

Jacques Garnet, Les suicides par le feu chez les bouddhistes
chinois du V au X siecle, 1959

Regards,
N. Ganesan





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From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA  Wed Aug 19 13:42:40 1998
From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof P Kumar)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 15:42:40 +0200
Subject: Cloning
Message-ID: <161227041182.23782.11968800307973907709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does any one know of any concept similar to cloning as we know it from the
recent modern scientific experiment in the Hindu mythological,
philosophical or Vedic materials. Secondly, any views on this as to how
Hindus would respond to such a concept? Your responses would be most
valuable for me. Thanks in advance.

Pratap

Prof. P. Kumar (Head of Dept)
Department of Science of Religion
University of Durban-Westivlle
Private BagX54001
Durban
4000
South Africa
Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work)
Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work)
Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za

Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000
For more info on the Congress please see:
http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr




From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Aug 20 01:42:18 1998
From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 18:42:18 -0700
Subject: Cloning
In-Reply-To: <v02130503b20086aa5512@[196.21.160.119]>
Message-ID: <161227041186.23782.906104782429670514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Prof P Kumar wrote:

> Does any one know of any concept similar to cloning as we know it from the
> recent modern scientific experiment in the Hindu mythological,
> philosophical or Vedic materials. Secondly, any views on this as to how
> Hindus would respond to such a concept? Your responses would be most
> valuable for me. Thanks in advance.

Although not directly related to cloning, a story which could be
considered along these lines is the birth of Va"si.s.tha and Agastya from
the infusion of Varu.na and Mitra's seed.

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Wed Aug 19 17:10:18 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 22:10:18 +0500
Subject: Cloning
In-Reply-To: <v02130503b20086aa5512@[196.21.160.119]>
Message-ID: <161227041184.23782.1110522366330881815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 03:42 PM 8/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Does any one know of any concept similar to cloning as we know it from the
>recent modern scientific experiment in the Hindu mythological,
>philosophical or Vedic materials. Secondly, any views on this as to how
>Hindus would respond to such a concept? Your responses would be most
>valuable for me. Thanks in advance.
>
>Pratap
>
>Prof. P. Kumar (Head of Dept)
>Department of Science of Religion
>University of Durban-Westivlle
>Private BagX54001
>Durban
>4000
>South Africa
>Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work)
>Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work)
>Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za
>
>Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12
2000
>For more info on the Congress please see:
>http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr
>
>

May be the birth of Prithu from Vena is a sort of cloning.

In Devibhagavata you have Demon Raktabija whose every drop of blood
produced another Raktabija. This also is very close to cloning.

regards,

sarma.




From smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU  Thu Aug 20 12:35:17 1998
From: smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Sushil Mittal)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 08:35:17 -0400
Subject: TOC: Volume 2, Number 1, 1998 is now available
Message-ID: <161227041189.23782.9840100987024976499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES, the only fieldwide triannual
scholarly, refereed journal on Hindu religion. IJHS is the preeminent
scholarly publication in Hindu studies today.

Full details on the  _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found
on the Journal Home Page at: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/


                   International Journal of Hindu Studies
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                        Volume 2, Number 1, 1998


ARTICLES:

The Indo-European prehistory of yoga  ~ 1-20
        N. J. Allen, University of Oxford

At home in the world: The lives of Sitadevi  ~ 21-42
        Rebecca J. Manring, Indiana University

Vivekananda and Ramakrsna face to face: An essay
         on the alterity of a saint  ~ 43-66
        Carl Olson, Allegheny College

Early Advaita and Madhyamaka Buddhism: The case
         of the Gaudapadiyakarika  ~ 67-83
        Richard King, University of Stirling

Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology
         Part III: Culture, imagination, and the wish  ~ 85-106
        Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorada

RESEARCH REPORT:

Matrimonials: A variation of arranged marriages  ~ 107-115
        Rajagopal Ryali, Auburn University Montgomery

BOOK REVIEWS (30)  ~ 117-154

 =========================================================================

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 =========================================================================




Dr. Sushil Mittal
University of Florida
Department of Religion
125 Dauer Hall, PO Box 117410
Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410

Tel   (352) 392-1625
Fax   (352) 392-7395
Email <smittal at religion.ufl.edu>




From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU  Thu Aug 20 16:14:47 1998
From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Dr. Nupam Mahajan)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 12:14:47 -0400
Subject: Bhairava on a coin
In-Reply-To: <19980807194913.9218.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227041190.23782.16990647645436187850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to all of you who provided very useful information about
Bhairava and Telugu Choda kings.

Regards,

Nupam

Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D.
Room 230, CB#7295
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
UNC, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA

Fax: 919-933-5455
http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Thu Aug 20 22:14:59 1998
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 15:14:59 -0700
Subject: Cloning
Message-ID: <161227041192.23782.16150636734742872909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My son Muktak, who studies mythology as a hobby, when he is not occupied with Microbiology, etc., has given me the following note when I conveyed to him the inquiry on cloning that was recently made on this list:

 Examples of "cloning" (i.e. making a whole organism with the same genetic inheritance from a part of another):

(1) Mahaabhaarata, Puraa.nas, etc.: Vena's mother Suniithaa was a bad influence, so he was killed.  The braahma.nas "churned? Vena's body, making first the Ni.saada from his bad qualities, then P.rthu (Vi.s.nu) and Arci (Lak.smii) from the good.

(2) Bhaagavata puraa.na: Upon the death of Nimi, his body was "churned" to create his son Janaka.

(3) Mahaabhaarata: Vi.s.nu plucks his white and black hairs and puts them into Rohi.nii and Devakii; they become Raama and K.r.s.na. The 101 Kauravas are born from the flesh of Gaandhaarii?s stillborn child. The 60,000 sons of Sagara are born from the gourd delivered by Vaidarbhii.

(4) Puraa.nas: All seers and supernatural beings are born from the cast-off bodies of Brahman, including Manu and ;Sataruupaa. Rudra mentally produces the innumerable Rudras, all like him in shape and personality.

(5) Deviimaahaatmya etc.: Each drop of Raktabiija?s blood becomes a new Raktabiija when it touches the ground.

(6) ;Sivapuraa.na etc.: Paarvatii makes Ga.ne;sa from her scrubbed-off body-dirt.

(7) Kathaasaritsaagara: Indra hurls his vajra at Kumaara, and ;Saakha and Vi;saakha are born.

(8) Mahaabhaarata, Padma puraa.na, etc.: Urva;sii etc. are born from the thigh of Naaraaya.na. A;srubindumatii is born from the tears of Rati. Vallii and Devasenaa are born from the tears of Vi.s.nu.

(9) Yogavaasi.s.tha:haven't read it, but should contain a few examples.




From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Fri Aug 21 02:35:32 1998
From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 21:35:32 -0500
Subject: arrival
Message-ID: <161227041194.23782.9428010382064824613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Sushil,
it looks like that you have arrived in Florida safely.
The issue of the Journal that you just put up looks
interesting.

Did you receive my manuscript and the diskette?
They were shipped under separate covers.

Waiting to hear from you.

Cordially,

Edeltraud.

NB
>?From next week onwards I will have the following new e-mail address:
harzer at uts.cc.utexas.edu




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Aug 21 18:49:28 1998
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 98 11:49:28 -0700
Subject: Cloning
Message-ID: <161227041196.23782.10410162783698498646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Re: Cloning
>(5) Deviimaahaatmya etc.: Each drop of Raktabiija=E6s blood becomes a
new=
> Raktabiija when it touches the ground.

  In the story of Ziva, dakSa and satI, vIrabhadra and mahaGkAlI are
created by Ziva from his hair.

>(7) Kathaasaritsaagara: Indra hurls his vajra at Kumaara, and ;Saakha
and=
> Vi;saakha are born.
 In addition, in the hitOpadEza tales, we have the story of 3
knowledgable Brahmins naieve to the ways of the world and 1 Brahmin
who is unknowledgable but wise to the ways of the world. The 4 Brahmins
come accross a skeleton of a tiger. The first 3 reconstruct
the skeleton of the tiger, give it flesh and blood and then life and
get killed. The fourth , who warns the others against giving the
skeleton life climbs up a tree and saves his life. Would this qualify as
cloning?

Regards,
Krishna
>


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Sat Aug 22 19:11:34 1998
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 98 15:11:34 -0400
Subject: IJTS Vol. 3, No. 1 (Aug. 23, 1998)
Message-ID: <161227041200.23782.7047893766575252276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

It is a pleasure to inform you that a new issue of the *International
Journal of Tantric Studies* has just been distributed via email to our
members.

IN THIS ISSUE:

          INTERNATIONAL  JOURNAL  OF  TANTRIC  STUDIES
              Vol. 3 (1998), No. 1, August 23, 1998
                           ISSN 1084-7553
       (c) Copyright IJTS 1995-98. All rights reserved.
                       http://www.asiatica.org/
                   ftp://ftp.shore.net/india/members/

- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
- PAPERS:
* MahAmahopAdhyAya Dr. Gopinath Kaviraj, My Teacher: As I Saw Him*
  by Debabrata Sen Sharma
* Philosophie de l'akula-kula selon les ecoles des kaulas du Tantrisme
de
  l'Inde*, by  Dominique Boubouleix

- COMPUTER SPACE:
* An Interview to T. Matthew Ciolek: Asia Academic Resources on The
Internet: How To Collect, Organize, And Manage Them *,
  by Enrica Garzilli and Ludovico Magnocavallo

- REVIEW PAPER:
  *The Mythology of BrahmA *, by G. BAILEY, with a Foreword by A. L.
Basham. Pp. xvi + 256. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1983. Rs. 100.
  By Paolo Magnone

- NEW TITLES:
  * Il Monoteismo Hindu. La storia, i testi, le scuole *, by F.
Squarcini -   C. Bartoli, Pisa: Pacini, 1997. ISBN: 88-77-81-193-5. Pp.
191. Price:
  Lit 29,000. (P. M.)
  * Rta-Ritu. An Exhibition on Cosmic Order and Cycle of Seasons (Jan 4
-
  Mar 30 1966)*, Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts (IGNCA).
  Pp. 95. (P. M.)
* Aforismi dello Yoga (YogasUtra)*, by PATAJjALI, transl. by PAOLO
MAGNONE,
  Torino: Promolibri, 1991. Pp. 183. Price: Lit 24,000. (E.G.)
  *Brahmins of Nepal *, by PRAKASH RAJ, Kathmandu: Nabeen Publications,
  1996. Pp. 47. Price: Nep. Rs 100, Ind. Rs. 70. (E.G.)
* Mongolian Portrait - Land of Big Skies*, a photographic essay by
  ANDREW PAX, Plymouth, Vermont: Five Corners Publications, Ldt., 1996.
  ISBN: 1-886699-03-8. Pp. 60. (E. G.)

- NEWS:
  * A French-Sanskrit Dictionary * by Andre Signoret
  * Watch the AOS!, * by Enrica Garzilli

  - COPYRIGHT NOTICE
*********************************END*************************************

Enjoy the reading!
--
Dr. Enrica Garzilli                 University of Perugia (ITALY)
Istituto di Linguistica                      Piazza Morlacchi, 11
06123 Perugia                  Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office)
Editor-in-Chief,
Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies
htpp://www.asiatica.org/
*****************************************************************




From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU  Sun Aug 23 00:42:39 1998
From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 98 19:42:39 -0500
Subject: tanuu' and Shankara
In-Reply-To: <4a05fb3.35b02a19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227041197.23782.1908739862164146918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Are there any Shankara specialists out there who know if tanuu' is a
regular part of Shankara's vocabulary-- or, if only periodic, what
commentaries has it more than others?  What about glossings of it-- e.g.,
with what word?

On a related point-- is there a concordance a la the VPK-- for his many
works?

__________________________
John Robert Gardner, Ph.D.
http://vedavid.org/
____________________________________________________
Obermann Center             The Graduate College
for Advanced Studies        Gilmore Hall
University of Iowa          University of Iowa
319-335-4034                319-335-2144
http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
____________________________________________________
"Never give up.  Never give up.  Never give up."
                        "Commencement Address" (complete text)
                        W. Churchill




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Aug 23 15:09:50 1998
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 98 08:09:50 -0700
Subject: Announcing Sarasvati Sindhu Web club
Message-ID: <161227041202.23782.4108478024443206850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello!

  I invite you to join the listed
  Yahoo! Club named "sarasvati sindhu".

  The objective is to bring together ALL WORLD CITIZENS
  interested in the historic legacy of two great
  Himalayan rivers which have nurtured
  almost 25% of humanity and to promote development efforts
  in ALL FIELDS OF HUMAN ENDEAVOR
  to the benefit of the people of this region, the children of
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  So, ALL BRANCHES OF KNOWLEDGE will be
  the canvas for this SARASVATI SINDHU club and you will
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  the club are all yours.

  The club uses the latest web technologies and has a
  private chat room, message boards and other features.

  If you have no interest in joining this club, there is
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  enrolled as a member.

  To become a member of this club, just go to the
  Web address below:
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  You can take a look at the club by going to:
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  You can learn more about kalyan97 by
  looking at the Yahoo! Public Profile:
  http://profiles.yahoo.com/kalyan97

  Thanking you and with the best regards,

  Dr. S. Kalyanaraman
  http://sarasvati.simplenet.com
  kalyan99 at netscape.net

  P.S. If you need some help on getting started, go to:

  http://help.yahoo.com/help/clubs/

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From smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU  Mon Aug 24 00:26:23 1998
From: smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Sushil Mittal)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 98 20:26:23 -0400
Subject: CFP: _International Journal of Hindu Studies_
Message-ID: <161227041204.23782.15043375296988895682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

                                                               Call for Papers


                   International Journal of Hindu Studies
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


The aim of the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is to examine
Hinduism centrally and in a special way. It wishes to consider Hinduism
analytically and comparatively as a "form of life" as clarified by its
contrasts and similarities to other historical and present day forms. This
is to say that we will be less concerned with the intrinsic forms of
Hinduism and its history, as illuminated by philological and descriptive
studies.  Rather, our focus will be, on the one hand, on Hinduism's
adaptations to a wide range of historical circumstances and ecological,
economic, and political possibilities and, on the other, on the Hindu
forms that work "on the ground" in particular places and times to generate
special kinds of social, cultural, and psychological order and problems.

We consider this to be necessarily a comparative exploration and welcome
(and need) contributions from scholars in other fields who wish to bring
their own studies of religion, world views, theories of modernity and
pre-modernity, social organization and social control, and so on, into
dialogue with Hindu studies. We equally encourage South Asia scholars to
explore such perspectives in their own work.

We wish to explore whether it may be productive to ask--in addition to the
descriptive "_What_ is Hinduism?"--the theoretical question (or questions,
for we expect there is a large and productive set of answers) "_Why_ is
Hinduism the way it is?"

The Journal, therefore, invites submissions of a comparative or theoretical
nature in all fields of the social sciences and humanities in the hope of
furthering a dialogue that centers on one of the great human creations,
Hinduism, which differs in so many respects from the religions and
societies that have informed much of classical Western thought.

Articles falling within the broad and deliberately somewhat vague
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submissions are reviewed by at least two independent reviewers.

Completed manuscripts and inquiries about material for possible publication
should be sent to the Editor:

                                    Dr. Sushil Mittal
                                    University of Florida
                                    Department of Religion
                                    125 Dauer Hall, PO Box 117410
                                    Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410, USA

                                    Tel (352) 392-1625, Fax (352) 392-7395
                                    Email <smittal at religion.ufl.edu>.

_International Journal of Hindu Studies_ (ISSN 1022-4556) is published
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 =========================================================================
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 =========================================================================




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Aug 24 16:18:08 1998
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 09:18:08 -0700
Subject: DivyAvadAna
Message-ID: <161227041210.23782.12934236583226439264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the GaNDavyUha sUtra, Sudhana after visiting
what is today's Orissa, Andhra, Karnataka, Tamilnadu
places and mountains, visits Potalaka mountain.


Is the Potalaka mountain mentioned in the Divya avadAnam?
Especially, in the Chapter 30: SudhanakumAra avadAnam. ??

Regards,
N. Ganesan




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From efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Aug 24 11:27:28 1998
From: efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (efeoci)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 16:27:28 +0500
Subject: Proposal for Exchange of Publications
Message-ID: <161227041206.23782.2946066958413861820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

We're attempting to extend our exchange of publications to new
institutions and would welcome all proposals from interested
parties. The exchange will be with indological publications only.
The modalities of the exchange will be worked out with individual
institutions.


Thank you,

Librarian
Department of Indology
French Institute of Pondicherry
P.B. 33
11, St. Louis Street
Pondicherry-605 001
Ph. 91-413-332504
Fax 91-413-335538




From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH  Mon Aug 24 16:16:39 1998
From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 18:16:39 +0200
Subject: IABS Conference: Call for Contributions
Message-ID: <161227041208.23782.2510011651322761475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

We put the following document on our WWW site (http://www-orient.unil.ch/):

-------------------------

CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS

"THE CULT OF VAIROCANA"

A round-table discussion to be held at the August 1998 meeting of The
International Association of Buddhist Studies, Lausanne, Switzerland

Organizer: Matthew Kapstein

--------------------------

(This message has been cross-posted to: BUDDHA-L, TIBET-L and INDOLOGY
mailing lists. Sorry for inconvenience if you received multiple
copies.)

Toru Tomabechi
University of Lausanne




From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH  Mon Aug 24 19:18:40 1998
From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 21:18:40 +0200
Subject: IABS Conference: Correction
Message-ID: <161227041212.23782.7224650069825029131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry for typo in my previous message.

> -------------------------
>
> CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS
>
> "THE CULT OF VAIROCANA"
>
> A round-table discussion to be held at the August 1998 meeting of The
                                                    ^^^^
> International Association of Buddhist Studies, Lausanne, Switzerland
>
> Organizer: Matthew Kapstein
>
> --------------------------

The IABS meeting will be held: August 1999 (not August 1998).

Toru Tomabechi
University of Lausanne




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Aug 25 12:49:49 1998
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 05:49:49 -0700
Subject: Cloning
Message-ID: <161227041217.23782.12630596452921584343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

D. Kherdian, Monkey: A journey to the West
(A retelling of the Chinese folk novel by Wu Ch'eng=en)
!992

p. 33
"How many of these can I possibly carry by myself? Monkey
pondered. 'I'd better use mu Body-out-of-Body magic.'
He plucked several hairs from his body and, chewing them into bits,
spat them into the air, saying 'Change!' The armory was suddenly
filled with chattering monkeys. At once they began to collect the
weapons, each according to his size or strength."

This 16th century Chinese novel tells the story of
Buddhist scriptures seeking Monk (Hsuan-tsang) and his companion,
the rogue-trickster Monkey. It is an allegorical piece
and very popular in East Asia. The events happen in the
West ie., India.

Body-out-of-Body magic is one of the eight mahAsiddhis concept
of India, I guess.

Regards
N. Ganesan





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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Aug 25 13:21:45 1998
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 06:21:45 -0700
Subject: Question on Chinese folk novels
Message-ID: <161227041219.23782.8912293957798122213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Heard that Chinese folktales telling that
Hsuan-tsang took Potalaka from South India and deposited it
in Western China. I am curious to find where this is narrated.
In the Journey to the West, the return back  travel is very
short and no mention of Potalaka during the return journey.

Could this taking of Potalaka occur in any of the follow-ups
on the Journey to the West? Does any ofthe Xiyou bu (supplement to
the Westward journey), Hou Xiyou ji (Later record of the
Westward journey), Xu Xiuou ji (Sequel to the Westward journey)
speak of the carrying of Potalaka? Do the follow ups
of the Westward journey exist in English translation?

Your help is deeply appreciated. I will be grateful
if this message is posted in Chinese literaturem, Buddhism,
Religion in East Asia, China lists. Since I'm not a member
in those lists, any answers can be forwarded to
naga_ganesan at hotmail.com

Many thanks.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


PS:

David Kherdian (translator) Monkey: A journey to the West,
Shambala, 1992 has  Kuan-yin (Avalokitezvara) coming from
Potalaka of the Southern ocean to help the Monk
and Monkey goes to Potalaka once.

p.94
"Monkey peered at her with his fiery eyes.'Of course I
recognize you. You are the All-compassionate, All-merciful
Bodhisattva Kuan-yin from the Potalaka mountain of the Southern
Ocean. Thank mercy you've come all the way to see me".

p. 139
"Monkey turned and somersaulted off into his loud and in less than
a half hour he came in sight of the Southern Ocan and saw Mount
Potalaka rise up before him".


*******************************************

Hsuan Tsang wrote in the 7th century of Potalaka
"In the south of the Mo-lo-ku-t'a (malakuuTa) country,
near the sea was the Mo-la-ya (malaya) mountain, with lofty cliffs
and ridges and deep valleys and gullies, on which were sandal,
camphor and other trees. To the east of this is the Pu-a-la-ka
(Potalaka) mountain  with steep narrow paths over its cliffs
and gorges in irregular fashion" (Th. Watters, 1905)



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From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Aug 25 10:05:06 1998
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 11:05:06 +0100
Subject: address Prof. K.C. Acharya
Message-ID: <161227041213.23782.10216744633620690842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Listmembers,

On behalf of Arlo Griffiths, who has at present no direct access to the list,
the following question:
Does anyone know the current address of Prof. K.C. Acharya, formerly professor
of Sanskrit at Utkal University, Bhuvaneshvar?

Yours, Jan E.M. Houben




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Tue Aug 25 11:23:37 1998
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 13:23:37 +0200
Subject: DivyAvadAna
In-Reply-To: <19980824161808.4244.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227041215.23782.13563816751394873552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>In the GaNDavyUha sUtra, Sudhana after visiting
>what is today's Orissa, Andhra, Karnataka, Tamilnadu
>places and mountains, visits Potalaka mountain.
>
>
>Is the Potalaka mountain mentioned in the Divya avadAnam?
>Especially, in the Chapter 30: SudhanakumAra avadAnam. ??
>
Edgerton mentions in his Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary s.v. potalaka
(2) (n. of a mountain) in addition to GandhavyUha 208.8 only MahAvyutpatti
4154, and not the DivyAvadAna. And s.v. Pautalaka = Po. his only reference
is MahAmAyUrI (ed. Oldenbourg 1899) 253.27 (prose).

Regards

   Georg v. Simson




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Aug 26 20:36:55 1998
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 98 16:36:55 -0400
Subject: Cleveland Public Library
Message-ID: <161227041221.23782.16828387068131654482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does any kind gentleman or lady on this list work at the Cleveland Public
Library?  I need a Ramayana there examined to compare it with one
offered to LC.

Thanks,

Allen



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4714
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Aug 27 09:05:21 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 02:05:21 -0700
Subject: Implications of iti and ca.
Message-ID: <161227041223.23782.1152578924081614894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

How final is the word "iti" in Indian philosophical writing, especially
when the author is quoting earlier material? For example, take the two
structures -

1. SrUyate hi, "sentences a, b, c" iti | "sentence d" iti ca |
2. "sentences a, b ..." iti | "sentences i, ii .." ityAdi SrutibhyaH |

In case 1, does the first iti serve to completely exclude sentence d
from the Sruti category represented by a, b and c? To my eyes, this
seems not only correct, but also reinforced by the use of "iti ca," so
that sentence d is set apart from a, b and c. Is this a valid reading?

How about case 2? Is the set of sentences a, b etc. similarly demarcated
from the set i, ii etc.? It seems to me that some of the sentences
included under the set a, b etc. could be from Sruti. However, the
author clearly considers every sentence in the set i, ii etc. to be
Sruti, and seems to separate the two sets this way because the latter
set validates the former set, which is part of his siddhAnta.

This would have implications for whether a text which is the source of
the quotation is to be considered as Sruti or not. One example over
which there is such a controversy is the Agama-prakaraNa of the
gauDapAda kArikAs.

How about a more general case, where example 1 above is modified to read
as follows?

1A. uktam hi, "sentences a, b, c" iti | "sentence d" iti ca |

The more general "uktam" in place of "SrUyate" seems to have suddenly
removed the importance of attaching a sense of finality to the "iti".

Or, should one expect all quotations between the "uktam" and the first
"iti" to be from the same author/text? Does one have to supply an
implicit "AcAryaiH" or something similar, to go with "uktam"? Then, is
the sentence d again set apart by the use of "iti"?

I would appreciate pointers from the Sanskrit experts on the list.

Vidyasankar

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From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Thu Aug 27 16:24:28 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 12:24:28 -0400
Subject: The word ciciirSu from padmaprAbhRtaka
Message-ID: <161227041225.23782.2144307130223125094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am reading Manmohan Ghosh's edition of the Caturbhaa.ni. There are a
few things there about the use of `grammarians' forms' that I find
puzzling.

In Padmapraabh.rtaka, Dattakala"sin, described as a grammarian, says
``kva sa.mciciir.su.h? ... ki.m dudru.su.h?'' Ghosh translates
`sa.mciciir.su' as `intending to go', as if it is from `car'. But I can
find no indication that `car' takes samprasaarana in any context, nor
is there a variant c.r for car. In spite of the claim to be a critical
edition, the notes refer only to readings of other editions. I am not
sure if the form `ciciir.su' is a joke on Dattakala"sin's pretensions
or if it a scribal error/typo for something else (cikiir.su?).

dudru.su is also puzzling. As far as I can see, only the regular
dudruu.su is given in grammar books (if this form is specifically
mentioned).

---

A somewhat tangential question, brought on by the mention of Kaatantra
in Padma. in this context and the well-known legend on the composition
of Kaatantra: Does Kaatantra permit the use of imperative with the
prohibitive particle maa?

---

thanks in advance for any help.
-Nath




From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Aug 27 16:10:51 1998
From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 21:10:51 +0500
Subject: Implications of iti and ca.
In-Reply-To: <19980827090521.19013.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227041227.23782.3746510988519553077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:05 AM 8/27/98 PDT, you wrote:
>How final is the word "iti" in Indian philosophical writing, especially
>when the author is quoting earlier material? For example, take the two
>structures -
>
>1. SrUyate hi, "sentences a, b, c" iti | "sentence d" iti ca |
>2. "sentences a, b ..." iti | "sentences i, ii .." ityAdi SrutibhyaH |
>
>In case 1, does the first iti serve to completely exclude sentence d
>from the Sruti category represented by a, b and c? To my eyes, this
>seems not only correct, but also reinforced by the use of "iti ca," so
>that sentence d is set apart from a, b and c. Is this a valid reading?
>
>How about case 2? Is the set of sentences a, b etc. similarly demarcated
>from the set i, ii etc.? It seems to me that some of the sentences
>included under the set a, b etc. could be from Sruti. However, the
>author clearly considers every sentence in the set i, ii etc. to be
>Sruti, and seems to separate the two sets this way because the latter
>set validates the former set, which is part of his siddhAnta.
>
>This would have implications for whether a text which is the source of
>the quotation is to be considered as Sruti or not. One example over
>which there is such a controversy is the Agama-prakaraNa of the
>gauDapAda kArikAs.
>
>How about a more general case, where example 1 above is modified to read
>as follows?
>
>1A. uktam hi, "sentences a, b, c" iti | "sentence d" iti ca |
>
>The more general "uktam" in place of "SrUyate" seems to have suddenly
>removed the importance of attaching a sense of finality to the "iti".
>
>Or, should one expect all quotations between the "uktam" and the first
>"iti" to be from the same author/text? Does one have to supply an
>implicit "AcAryaiH" or something similar, to go with "uktam"? Then, is
>the sentence d again set apart by the use of "iti"?
>
>I would appreciate pointers from the Sanskrit experts on the list.
>
>Vidyasankar
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

I am not a expert in sanskrit, but

1. SrUyate hi, "sentences a, b, c" iti | "sentence d" iti ca |

may indicate sentences a, b, c, and sentence d occur in different places
in the same treatise or they occur in two different srutis.

regards,

sarma.




From info at TICONSOLE.NL  Thu Aug 27 19:11:37 1998
From: info at TICONSOLE.NL (T.I. Console)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 21:11:37 +0200
Subject: ciciir.su.h and dudru.su.h
Message-ID: <161227041229.23782.12334417884135589242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyanath Rao wrote that he found these two words in the Padmaprabh.rtaka.

I'd like to know where exactly did you find these instances? In my opinion you are right in considering them awkward. cikiir.su.h and dudruu.u.h clearly sound more normal. It seems indeed a joke at the cost of Dattakala'sin's knowledge of grammar. Is there a reason in the context to do so? If not, I'm inclined to interpret them as typo's, but if these are the only serious typo's in the whole edition......

Sandra van der Geer
Leiden
NL
info at ticonsole.nl




From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Aug 28 06:13:23 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 98 11:43:23 +0530
Subject: Implications of iti and ca.
In-Reply-To: <19980827090521.19013.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227041231.23782.15609097525767233346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> How final is the word "iti" in Indian philosophical writing,[...]

> 1. SrUyate hi, "sentences a, b, c" iti | "sentence d" iti ca |
> 2. "sentences a, b ..." iti | "sentences i, ii .." ityAdi SrutibhyaH |

Sarma's interpretation,

> 1. SrUyate hi, "sentences a, b, c" iti | "sentence d" iti ca |
>
> may indicate sentences a, b, c, and sentence d occur in different
> places in the same treatise or they occur in two different srutis.

is what I too would first expect: a, b and c forming one continuous
fragment and d coming from elsewhere. But I believe that ultimately we
cannot make hard rules here, because (a) not each and every author is
equally careful in his use of language, (b) 'iti' can be used in
different ways (e.g., when introducing a new argument or someone else's
point of view). We have to look at contexts to decide what makes sense
in any specific case.

RZ






From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Aug 28 16:03:20 1998
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 98 12:03:20 -0400
Subject: An interpretation of RV "pura" made of "ayas"
Message-ID: <161227041234.23782.10652870472577695431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yesterday, I read the review of "The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia:
Language, Material Culture, and Ethnicity" in the Journal of the American
Oriental Society 118.1 (1998), pp.120-121, by Greg Possehl. In the review,
Possehl says, "The Rgveda does refer to places as pur, "walled," a "fort" or a
"stronghold." There is  a reference to places of this sort as being of metal
or ayas."

In light of Michael Witzel's discussions on the meaning of RV ayas as actually
meaning copper or perhaps bronze, anybody familiar with Classical and post-
Classical Tamil literature cannot but be struck by the implications of the RV
pura of ayas. I think one might have to revisit the view that Vedic texts "do
not know of cities or towns but speak, instead, of ruined places where one
might collect potsherds for ritual purposes." (Michael Witzel in Early Indian
history: Linguistic  and textual parameters, p.98, in Indo-Aryans of Ancient
south Asia)

Some of the instances of RV pura made of ayas are given below. (Source: John
Gardner's Vedavid web site)

prati yadasya vajraM bAhvordhurhatvI dasyUn pura AyasIrni tArIt || (RV
2.20.8.2)

shatam mA pura AyasIr arakSann adha shyeno javasA nir adIyam || (RV 4.2.1.2)

manojavA ayamAna AyasImatarat puram | (RV 8.89.8.1in Griffith RV 8.100.8.1 in
Vedavid web site)

A misinterpretation of ayas as iron led Griffith to explain the last example
as referring to the stronghold or cloud in which Soma or ambrosial rain was
imprisoned. If ayas meant copper, the interpretation "cloud" is not correct.

The pura made of ayas seems to be a translation of a longstanding Dravidian
literary device to describe a brick fort. Consider the following examples from
Tamil texts. The Tamil texts will be followed by necessary translation.

cempu uRaz puricai cemmal mUtUr  (puR. 37.11)

"The prominent old city/town with copper-like fort". Please note the obvious
etymological connection of "puricai" with "pura".

cempu iyan2Ran2n2a ceJcuvar pun2aintu (matu.485)

"Having built a read wall as if made of copper"

We also have following examples where by the use of metonymy, the fort is said
to be made of copper.

cempu pun2aintu iyaRRiya cEN neTu puricai
uvarA Ikai tuvarai ?..                                   (puR.201.9-10)

"The city of tuvarai (dwAraka?) of non-exhausting philanthropyvery tall fort
made using copper"

The motif of forts like copper or made of copper can be found even in medieval
tamil texts.

cempu iTTuc ceyta ijncit tirunakar?(kamparAmAyaNam 6.15.160.1)

"The auspicious town with a rampart made with copper"

What are these forts/walls made of which gave rise to the comparison with
copper? It is clear from the examples below.

nAL pali maRanta narai kaN iTTikai
puricai mUzkiya pori arai Alattu          (aka.287.6-7)

Here an enclosing wall around a sacred banyan tree is mentioned. The wall
(puricai) is made of brick (iTTikai).

cempu iyan2Ran2n2a ceyvu uRu neTu cuvar  (neT. 12)

"The tall wall made as if with copper'

iTTikai neTu cuvar ?             (aka.167.13)

"The tall wall (made of) bricks"

A comparison of CT usages in neT.12 and aka.167.13 show that the bricks were
viewed as copper-like. The following post-CT text explicitly describes the
bricks (iTTikai) as red metal or  copper-like (cempon2).

aLavu il cempon2 iTTikaikaL ALmEl neruGki aNi ArUrt (periyapurANam 3208.2)

Of course, the common word for brick in Tamil is ceGkal (red stone)

Why do I think that this literary device of describing a brick fort as copper
fort is Dravidian? For one thing, the bricks were not part of RV culture.
Secondly, if the concept was widely prevalent in the Sanskrit tradition, with
the long history of Vedic/Sanskrit scholarship, the correct interpretation for
pura made of ayas would have been arrived at by now. The fact that an
archaeologist such as Possehl (who would be expected to rely on the
interpretation of Vedic scholars) refer to forts made of metal suggests to me
that the Sanskrit scholars have not interpreted the usage as referring to
brick forts. I am willing to be corrected on this.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Aug 29 03:25:06 1998
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (Dr.S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 98 20:25:06 -0700
Subject: Tracing the Sarasvati River
Message-ID: <161227041236.23782.9252519940591993852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
Today's news report from New Delhi announcing an ambitious
project to trace the Sarasvati River will be of interest to
all indology members.
The URL is: http://www.deccan.com
The report is reproduced below. Best regards, Kalyanaraman

New Report: Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad, Aug. 29, 1998

Ambitious project to trace river Saraswati 

New Delhi, Aug. 28: The Centre has embarked on an ambitious project to trace
Saraswati,the mythological river believed to be flowing underground and
forming the Sangam in confluence with the Ganga and the Jamuna.

If the latest scientific observations are confirmed, then the river Saraswati
could still be flowing under the deserts of Rajasthan, most probably somewhere
near the Indo-Pakistan border. 

The Central Ground Water Board is launching a massive project next month with
the assistance of the Bhaba Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai, Physical Reserach
Laboratory, Ahmedabad, Indian Space Research Organisation and Rajasthan State
Ground Water Board. 

The attempt to trace the holy river is being launched from Longowala, which
became part of the sub-continent?s history during the 1971 Indo-Pakistan war.
Starting from the far western part of the state, the project is expected to
cost Rs 1.25 crores.

?We hope to complete the project in two years. The first phase of the project
covering Western Jaisalmar will be completed in four months,? CGWB Jaipur
regional director S C Sharma said. 

The project, claimed to be the final culmination of a series of observations
made in the last 10 years by the CGWB, is the most scientific attempt in
Indian history to trace the holy river, which a group of historians say was
the craddle of a Vedic culture. 

Sharma said the hydro-geological surveys in the past 10 years by the Central
and State ground water boards, and the satellite imageries in the last three
years have shown ?signature marks? of the path of ?some hidden flowing
systems? in Rajasthan. 

Incorporating this with historical works, especially a paper published in 1968
on Saraswati, the board and other experts believe that the river could have
been flowing somewhere in the state. The CGWB authorities have identified
eight areas in Rajasthan where the ?signatures? have been found for further
investigations. 

While the board will carry out the bore hole electrical logging, BARC will
carry out dating of water to judge how old it is, and the Physical Laboratory
will determine the sediments in different depths. 

Specialised atomic tests, further investigations, and a detailed Lytho Chart
could finally throw light on the hidden river, says Mr Sharma, a former UN
consultant and a senior hydro-geologist who will be overseeing the entire
project. 

The board will employ a costly Geophysical Resistivity equipment recently
imported from Japan for the project. A group of historians have claimed in the
recent past that by the river there could have been a pre-Harappan culture
which ?is the mother of a matured Harappan culture?. 

This group of historians, who claim Aryans were not invaders, wants to call
the Indus Valley civilization as the ?Saraswati Civlization?. The particular
group of Indian historians also question the claims of Mortimer Wheeler, who
excavated Mohenjodaro and Harappa, that light skinned Aryans invaded from
Central Asia destroying Indus Civlization. 

?Research (to find Sarswati) is one part of the project. If there are hidden
channels of rechargable water then it could be of great use to a state like
Rajasthan for more water supply,? says Mr Sharma, refusing that the project
has any politics to it. 



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From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU  Sun Aug 30 18:23:19 1998
From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 14:23:19 -0400
Subject: ciciir.su.h and dudru.su.h
Message-ID: <161227041237.23782.4155208292923311904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sandra van der Geer wrote:

>I'd like to know where exactly did you find these instances? In my
>opinion you are right in considering them awkward. cikiir.su.h and
>dudruu.u.h clearly sound m ore normal. It seems indeed a joke at the
>cost of Dattakala'sin's knowledge of grammar. Is there a reason in the
>context to do so? If not, I'm inclined to interpret them as typo's, but
>if these are the only serious typo's in the whole edition

These occur in M. Ghosh's edition of padmapraabh.rtaka (The actual
title is ``Glimpses of sexual life in Ancient India''. It is actually
an edition and translation of four bhaa.nas) on p.52 at l.13
(between verses 16 and 17). The text runs as follows:
    ki.m bravii.si bhavaan| kva sa~nciciir.su.h| ti.s.tha taavat|
    kim asi dudru.su.h| iti
`dudru.su' may be a typo, but `ciciir.su' is not because Ghosh
glosses it as ``intend to run'' which does not fit `sa.mcikiir.su'. From
the notes, it seems that Ghosh did not use any manuscripts, but used
other editions. These seem to hard to come by, and if anyone with access
to them can tell me what they have here, I will be thankful.

Similar thing also occurs in the following bhaa.na, ``Paadataa.ditakam''.
But here I will be able check Schokker's edition in a few days and I
will wait till I do that before expanding on this.




From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU  Sun Aug 30 22:54:04 1998
From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 98 08:54:04 +1000
Subject: Mysore inscriptions
Message-ID: <161227041239.23782.3835900677639016377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A colleague working on Indian dating has asked me the questions below,
any information would be welcome.


>I am working from L. Rice's Mysore inscriptions (Bangalore, 1879) ...

>and he worked from "Major Dixon's photographs" (22nd Regiment, Madras

>Native Infantry, circa 1879).  Now and again I need to know the original

>word. For instance it would be odd if "the last day of the moon's

>decrease" was not merely "amavasya" in the original. But how can I tell?

>Where are the orginals, who knows about them?




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Aug 31 19:47:43 1998
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 98 12:47:43 -0700
Subject: Mysore inscriptions
Message-ID: <161227041241.23782.539174912834374455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Royce Wiles <Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU> wrote:
...
>>I am working from L. Rice's Mysore inscriptions (Bangalore, 1879) ...
>
>>and he worked from "Major Dixon's photographs" (22nd Regiment, Madras
>
>>Native Infantry, circa 1879).  Now and again I need to know the
original

Check Epigraphiya Karnatika = Epigraphia Carnatica.  1st rev. ed.
Mysore: Kannada Adhyayana Samsthe, Maisuru Visvavidyanilaya : copies
availabe from Prasaranga, <1972-1990>. There are nine volumes in this
set, based on Lewis Rice's earlier edition with the same name.

Vidyasankar

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From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Aug 31 21:55:53 1998
From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 98 03:25:53 +0530
Subject: Mysore inscriptions
Message-ID: <161227041243.23782.18172723430805568431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Royce Wiles <Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU> wrote:

> A colleague working on Indian dating has asked me the questions below,
> any information would be welcome.
>
> >I am working from L. Rice's Mysore inscriptions (Bangalore, 1879) ...

He should not be working with that antiquated edition! Since 1971 a
_very_ enhanced edition has been brought out by the University of Mysore
as _Epigraphia Carnatica_. (To give one example: vol. 2, the epigraphs
from Sravanabelagola, contained 144 insciptions. The revised version
(1973) contains 573.) All the inscriptions are given in Kannada script,
the more interesting ones also in Latin transliteration, and
translations are given at the back of the volume.

RZ