From sudheerbirodkar at YAHOO.COM Wed Apr 1 10:15:44 1998 From: sudheerbirodkar at YAHOO.COM (sudheer birodkar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 02:15:44 -0800 Subject: The Origins of OM or Omkar - A Hypothesis Message-ID: <161227037300.23782.14767254596599157320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Given below is an extract from my webpage on Symbols and Symbolisms from Ancient India. I seek the feedback of Indologists on this hypothesis. Regards Sudheer Birodkar ____________________________________ OM or Omkar is a religious syllable that occurs in every Hindu prayer. Invocation to most Hindu gods begin with this syllable. For instance we have Om Namaha Shivaya, Hari Om, Om Shanti etc. OM is also pronounced as AUM. But this term also occurs in various ancient and modem civilizations in different form though. It exists Hinduism, Christianity and Islam. In Arabic the first alphabet is pronounced as aliph. In Greek it is alpha, in the Roman script it is A. Thus in many languages the first letter in the alphabet has the syllable A, with which the word AUM or OM begins. In the Greek alphabet the last letter is Omega which comes very close to OM. Thus the significance of the syllable OM as the beginning and end finds a parallel in many of the scripts associated with ancient languages. This indicates a possible link between the various symbols and perhaps a common origin. Even in the English language the syllable ?m occurs in words having a similar meaning. for instance; Omniscience means infinite knowledge, Omnipotent means having infinite powers Omnivorous means eating or reading every thing. This syllable also occurs in words such as Omen which means a sign of something that is to occur in future, Ombudsman means a person having authority to pronounce a verdict. Thus Om is also used to signify divinity and authority. The syllable OM is not specific to Indian culture. It has religious significance in other religions also. The word Amen used among Christians at the end of a prayer is also said to be derived from the the syllable OM. Although OM is not given any specific definition and is considered to be a cosmic sound, a primordial sound, the totality of all sounds etc., Amen is said to mean 'May it be so'. In Arabic a similar term 'Amin' has a religious significance. Thus the origin of the syllable OM is lost in the misty past. Its not being specific to any one country or civilization is indicative of its being an universally perceptible sound for the human race. This reason for this universal perceptibility possibly lies in the fact that AAAH is the most natural sound that issues from the human larynx. This is evident when a man cries out naturally in extreme pain, anger or fear. When emotions reach an extreme pitch the articulate sounds evolved by man are not the ones that are heard, but the syllable natural to man which is AAAH. This sound it can be said would have been associated with man, in absence of articulate speech, as are the various sounds of barking, meowing, bellowing that we associate with different animals. This perhaps is the reason why the syllable beginning with the letter 'A' is the first one in most alphabets. And this perhaps is also the reason for the Deification of the syllable AUM or OM. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM Wed Apr 1 14:09:06 1998 From: kalyan97 at YAHOO.COM (S. Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 06:09:06 -0800 Subject: Strabo, Geography: Indus River and Linguistic area Message-ID: <161227037309.23782.16649790265784291041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Erik Seldeslachts for reminding us of the following quote: In Strabo,Geography 15.1.19, there is a parallel piece of information - drawn from Aristoboulos, a companion of Alexander -, which puts into perspective the quotations above: "He says that when he was sent upon a certain mission he saw a country of more than a thousand cities, together with villages, that had been deserted because the Indus had abandoned its proper bed, and had turned aside into the other bed on the left that was much deeper, and flowed with precipitous descent like a cataract, so that the Indus no longer watered by its overflows the abandoned country on the right, since that country was now above the level, not only of the new stream, but also of its overflows." In Marshall's archaeological report, the Mihran (referred to by Strabo as the abandoned channel of the Indus) (or Sarasvati river as we now know) dry bed has been referred to; in fact, Mohenjodaro was an island caught between the Indus left bank and Mihran right bank channels. Beas was flowing into Sutlej; Sutlej was flowing into Sarasvati at Shatrana in Punjab. (Satellite images show the width of palaeo channels of Sarasvati river at this place to be about 20 kms. and also signatures of migratory channels of Sutlej as the latter tributary migrated westwards towards the Indus.) The archaeological evidence of over 1000 archaeological sites (settlements) on the banks of Sarasvati (Note the latest work by Mughal, Ancient Cholistan, 1997) is dramatic. Ca. 3000 B.C. settlers on the banks of this river used Harappa (accessible directly over land from Kalibangan since Beas and Sutlej did not intervene at that time) and Mohenjodaro were trading outposts supported by the 1000 + support bases of settlements. Alexander did travel up the Mihran during his campaign in Punjab; this was a river mightier than the Indus... Further work on the languages of the region will unravel the script of the people. Another hypothesis: Languages of the Aryans or Dravidians or Mundas might have constituted an 'Indian linguistic area', at the time the settlements flourished? cf. Emeneau's work... Regards, Kalyanaraman == Sarasvati-Sindhu Research Center, 34315 Eucalyptus Terrace, Fremont, CA 94555, USA. http://www.probys.com/sarasvati http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch1208a.htm http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875 (Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja)kalyan97 at yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Apr 1 06:43:33 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 08:43:33 +0200 Subject: The horse argument, part 1 In-Reply-To: <199803311829.NAA25195@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227037302.23782.6810648757086169349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: >Dominique Thillaud had written a post saying that evidence of horse is >not found in Mycenean Greece. If I remember right, cheek pieces of the >type used in the Near East and Central Asia have been found in the >shaft graves of Mycenean times. I don't know the precise figures, but >from what I have read, these cheek pieces were not rare. You say here more than I do. Horse's bones and chariots were found in Mycenian digs. But their number was fewer than expected by a simple reading of epics. The remains show a great importance of the horse as a prestige animal, but we don't have prooves of an actual use of chariots in the warfare. Nothing else. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Wed Apr 1 16:50:21 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 08:50:21 -0800 Subject: Speculations... Message-ID: <161227037311.23782.16242505095707312806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Sn. Subrahmanya" wrote: > This is what Mallory writes in his Speculations on Xinjiang mummies > (JIES,Vol23,Fall/Winter95) -- > " The tendency to prefer a north-south split in the Aryan languages > as envisaged by Burrow(1973) continues to some extent (with a 90deg > shift in orientation) in the more recent works of Parpola(1988, > and forthcoming) which confront one of the greatest problems of > Indo-Iranian origins, i.e it is far easier to find Indo-Iranian 'culture', > eg: chariots, horse sacrifice, pastoral economies, in the steppe region > from the Black Sea to the Yenisei than in the actual historical seats > of the Indo-Aryans, Persains & Medes (Mallory in press, a). Any putative > Aryan migration into northwest India will find more archeological > evidence constructed from parallels with Central Asian urban sites than > with their steppe neighbours and hence the historically attested Indo-Aryans > or Iranians generally involves a model whereby the northern steppe tribes > come to dominate those of the Central Asian urban centres, and having > acquired the latter's material culture penetrate farther east. In this way, > for example Parpola ascribes the Timber-grave culture to the 'West Aryans' > while the more easterly Andronovo culture is regarded as 'East Aryan', i.e > the Proto-Indo-Aryans, who move into the area of Central Asian urbanism > during the period 1800-1500BC." > One can question how these cultures are labelled "Aryan," which must mean they were IE speakers. Since the cultural complexes do not relate closely with historical Indo-Aryans and they left no writing, then the basis seems biological. However, we can certainly question whether the 'liberal' interpretaton of Gimbutas' "steppe type" and [primitive] 'Mediterranean' as Aryan is correct. There seems to be a tendency to classify any skeleton that does not fit into the "typical" Mongoloid pattern as Caucasoid. However, in the above cases, the phenotypes are much closer to typical Turco-Mongols or Dravidian/Australoids respectively than to "typical" Caucasoids. > So with the 90deg shift in orientation, dominating urban sites, > acquiring material wealth the Aryans turn up in time in north-west India, > and all this using their chariot-tanks -- It sounds more like a panzer > blitzkrieg. > And we are told that the invasion theory is "out" and migration is the "in" > thing. However, the important evidence of settlements built upon the remains of destroyed Indus cities by chariot-equipped armies remains lacking. The Painted Grey Ware Culture, for example, often cited as the best candidate for aryanhood was almost entirely located outside of the IVC territority. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 1 15:32:02 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 09:32:02 -0600 Subject: The horse argument, part 2 Message-ID: <161227037305.23782.9560233971299239464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: The horse argument, part 2 Vidyanath Rao wrote: *If the bits are earlier *than 400 BCE, then we have a clear anomaly. Central and southern India, *presumably dominated by Dravidian speakers, who, it is said, did not *know of the horse till it was brought in by the `Aryans', are up-to-date *but the `horse centered Aryans' of North India are quite backward, and *managed to avoid leaving large scale evidence of the horse. On the other hand, it shows Horses may be found in North India in the future. The evidences of horses in South India, (even in Sri Lanka) from megalithic burials dating from much before 400 BC makes it a high possibility. Or, the flood plains, population pressure, invasions in North India over the centuries. Have they destroyed the evidence. Regards, N. Ganesan From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Apr 1 15:40:17 1998 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 09:40:17 -0600 Subject: Speculations... Message-ID: <161227037307.23782.8599004314994433078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is what Mallory writes in his Speculations on Xinjiang mummies (JIES,Vol23,Fall/Winter95) -- " The tendency to prefer a north-south split in the Aryan languages as envisaged by Burrow(1973) continues to some extent (with a 90deg shift in orientation) in the more recent works of Parpola(1988, and forthcoming) which confront one of the greatest problems of Indo-Iranian origins, i.e it is far easier to find Indo-Iranian 'culture', eg: chariots, horse sacrifice, pastoral economies, in the steppe region from the Black Sea to the Yenisei than in the actual historical seats of the Indo-Aryans, Persains & Medes (Mallory in press, a). Any putative Aryan migration into northwest India will find more archeological evidence constructed from parallels with Central Asian urban sites than with their steppe neighbours and hence the historically attested Indo-Aryans or Iranians generally involves a model whereby the northern steppe tribes come to dominate those of the Central Asian urban centres, and having acquired the latter's material culture penetrate farther east. In this way, for example Parpola ascribes the Timber-grave culture to the 'West Aryans' while the more easterly Andronovo culture is regarded as 'East Aryan', i.e the Proto-Indo-Aryans, who move into the area of Central Asian urbanism during the period 1800-1500BC." So with the 90deg shift in orientation, dominating urban sites, acquiring material wealth the Aryans turn up in time in north-west India, and all this using their chariot-tanks -- It sounds more like a panzer blitzkrieg. And we are told that the invasion theory is "out" and migration is the "in" thing. Only the terminology changes, the concepts remain. Subrahmanya Houston, TX From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Wed Apr 1 08:50:49 1998 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 09:50:49 +0100 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' In-Reply-To: <01IVBBF67KBM002L23@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037290.23782.13879750397731240581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The text which Burrow translates here is not Rig-Veda but Taittiriya Brahmana II, 4, 6, 8. He discusses it in 'On the significance of the term _arma-, armaka-_ in early Sanskrit literature', in _Journal of Indian History_ (University of Kerala), Vol 41 Part 1 (April 1963) pp. 159-66. In this article he says that these words refer to ruined sites, and gives occurrences of them from Rig-Veda Samhita to Panini. The commentaries on Panini explain it as vinaSTagrAma or zUnyagrAmanivAsa. Burrow concludes (p. 166): 'They confirm the theory that it was in fact the Aryans who were responsible for the overthrow of the Indus civilisation, they show that for centuries the most important of these ruins were conspicuous features of the countryside and they supply interesting information about the location of some of them.' Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > Reading an article by Prof. Thomas Burrow on Aryans intruding > into India. Reference: Arthur Cotterell, Encyclopaedia of > ancient civilizations, 1980 > > "The Aryans were aware of the numerous ruined Indus sites > among which they lived, and they referred to them by the term > arma, armaka, 'ruined site, ruins'. Among the references to these > the following is of particular significance: *The people to > whom these ruined sites, lacking posts, formerly belonged, > these many settlements widely distributed. they, O, Vaishvaanara, > having been expelled by thee, having migrated to another > land*." - T. Burrow > > What is the verse number in Rig Veda of the above? > When the ecological balance and balance of power in the > pre-aryan society turned against the indus valley people, > Aryans established. This verse appears to be referencing > that critical event. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Apr 1 08:26:59 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 10:26:59 +0200 Subject: The horse argument, part 3 Message-ID: <161227037288.23782.652253521847433190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:10 31.03.98 -800, you wrote: >Even if we acknowledge that the domesticated horse in India came >from Central Asia, it does equate that the Vedic people also >came from there. That would be like saying that since modern >Indians use motorized vehicles they all came from Detroit. > >Regards, >Paul Kekai Manansala > Good point! Incidentally, I think this is a major problem of archaeology: Various kinds of goods travel, often over very long distances. This means that language and material culture are not necessarily coextensive in so far as people may share the same material culture and yet belong to different linguistic communities, not to mention the fact that they may even be at war with each other! Another problem with archaeological material is that you have to FIND it. A lot of stuff simply gets lost for ever. That is why I am not overtly impressed by archaeological evidence (or lack of it) as against linguistic evidence. But on the other hand, archaeological evidence certainly matters when it grows to certain proportions and the number of possible interpretations dwindle. Anyway, thanks to Vidyanath Rao for sending his references.! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Apr 1 09:38:01 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 11:38:01 +0200 Subject: Chariots Message-ID: <161227037293.23782.496361480868144623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to Vidyanath Rao's bibliographic info on chariots, here is another piece on the chariot: Jacqueline Manessy-Guitton: Recherches sur la terminologie du "char" en v?dique, en myc?nien et chez Hom?re. Etudes Indo-Europeennes, numero 20. (1987?). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 1 12:17:19 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 13:17:19 +0100 Subject: Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math (fwd) Message-ID: <161227037295.23782.15566496273745794664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A colleague tells me that: --- begin quote --- > suspect that Vasudevananda is only a misprint for Vishnudevananda. If > this is not a mistake, then Vasudevananda must be considered to be > another claimant to the Jyotirmath title. I can say authoritatively, as a member of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's movement living in India, that Vasudevananda was the successor of Vishnudevananda. Vasudevananda passed away a few months ago. [...] --- end quote -- Dominik From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Wed Apr 1 13:00:58 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 14:00:58 +0100 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037297.23782.8291307508987552546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > Reading an article by Prof. Thomas Burrow on Aryans intruding > > into India. Reference: Arthur Cotterell, Encyclopaedia of > > ancient civilizations, 1980 > > > > "The Aryans were aware of the numerous ruined Indus sites > > among which they lived, and they referred to them by the term > > arma, armaka, 'ruined site, ruins'. Among the references to these > > the following is of particular significance: *The people to > > whom these ruined sites, lacking posts, formerly belonged, > > these many settlements widely distributed. they, O, Vaishvaanara, > > having been expelled by thee, having migrated to another > > land*." - T. Burrow > > > > What is the verse number in Rig Veda of the above? > > When the ecological balance and balance of power in the > > pre-aryan society turned against the indus valley people, > > Aryans established. This verse appears to be referencing > > that critical event. > > > > Regards, > > N. Ganesan It is difficult to see how this can be taken as a proof of a pre-Aryan urbanised culture being followed by Aryans without cities but living among ruins. It is just an indication of population shifts caused by major geological shifts, nothing more. It does not say whether these ruins were relatively recent in Vedic times or quite ancient; it doesn't say that the Aryans themselves did not live in cities or that the former inhabitants of the ruined sites were not Aryans themselves. In Strabo, Geography 15.1.19, there is a parallel piece of information - drawn from Aristoboulos, a companion of Alexander -, which puts into perspective the quotations above: "He says that when he was sent upon a certain mission he saw a country of more than a thousand cities, together with villages, that had been deserted because the Indus had abandoned its proper bed, and had turned aside into the other bed on the left that was much deeper, and flowed with precipitous descent like a cataract, so that the Indus no longer watered by its overflows the abandoned country on the right, since that country was now above the level, not only of the new stream, but also of its overflows." Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent, Belgium From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 1 22:21:26 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 14:21:26 -0800 Subject: Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math (fwd) Message-ID: <161227037320.23782.7441590521580745643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the forwarded message. I came across the same information late last month. It seems that Vishnudevananda was slated to succeed Santananda, but predeceased him. I'm not sure when he passed away. Santananda passed away only in December 97, and was succeeded by Vasudevananda, who is a different person. Should I update the text, or add a short note at the end? Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sushil at WWDG.COM Wed Apr 1 22:17:31 1998 From: sushil at WWDG.COM (Sushil Kumar Singh) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 15:17:31 -0700 Subject: membership cancellation req. Message-ID: <161227037318.23782.1438215024426658846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi This message is for indology administrator if there is any one. I want to get disconnected from indology discussion group. please tell me how i can do that. From silk at WMICH.EDU Thu Apr 2 00:07:20 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 19:07:20 -0500 Subject: Vaishesikasutra E-text In-Reply-To: <199803100755.AA00253@Aristotle.la.numazu-ct.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227037322.23782.3774103827318896303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps I misunderstood this, but I downloaded the Vaishesikasutra E-text and tried to read it with a CSX font, without success (I mean it was garbled). Is a CS font different from a CSX font? Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From silk at WMICH.EDU Thu Apr 2 00:13:56 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 19:13:56 -0500 Subject: Carvakas and incest Message-ID: <161227037325.23782.13166985690176067748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend told me a few days ago that according to his memory Tibetan Siddhanta (grub mtha') texts say that the Carvakas system was devised to account for the fact that the founder of the system was (this was not quite clear to me) a product of incest/a participant in incest with his own mother. Are there Indic sources for such a legend? (I don't even have an exact Tibetan source, and have no materials at hand to check in.) (I am not particularly interested in the Carvakas per se -- but rather in the incest part of the whole thing.) Many thanks for any hints! Jonathan Silk Department of Comparative Religion Western Michigan University Kalamazoo MI 49008-5013 USA tel. 616-387-4399 fax 616-387-4914 silk at wmich.edu From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 1 18:15:49 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 23:15:49 +0500 Subject: The Origins of OM or Omkar - A Hypothesis Message-ID: <161227037314.23782.3037338415481703015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:15 AM 4/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > >Given below is an extract from my webpage on Symbols and Symbolisms >from Ancient India. I seek the feedback of Indologists on this >hypothesis. > >Regards > >Sudheer Birodkar >____________________________________ > Omiti brahma OmitIdagM sarvaM OmityEtadanukRti hasma vA apyOzrAvayEtyAzrAvayanti Omiti sAmAni gAyanti OgM-zO-miti ZastrANi ZagMsanti OmityadhvaryuH pratigaraM pratigRNAti Omiti brahmA prasauti OmityagnihOtramanujAnAti Omiti pravakSyannAha brahmOpApnavAnIti brahmaivOpApNOti taittirIya upaniSad 1-1-16 From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Apr 2 06:51:26 1998 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 01:51:26 -0500 Subject: Indic transliteration draft Message-ID: <161227037332.23782.17319235194388982301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On March 31, 1998, George Baumann wrote: > 5) Is the representation of Kannada palatal -n- correct? Isn't the half circle on >the right side necessary? > > 7) the graph for Kannada retroflex -t- seems to have a circle at the right top, >which isn't necessary. > >8) the dental -t- in Oriya could be written a bit better, >perhaps. It shouldn't be fully closed at the top. > >10) The graph for Kannada -m- is not quite correct at the base, I think. The same > is true of the -v- in Kannada. These have now been uploaded in corrected forms. Thanks, Tony Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From Vaidix at AOL.COM Thu Apr 2 07:52:55 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 02:52:55 -0500 Subject: The Origins of OM or Omkar - A Hypothesis Message-ID: <161227037340.23782.13276100086535144862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, The syllable Om is said to be same as uthgItha (chandogya upaniSat). uthgItha is the last portion of inhalation when free and unconstrained inhalation takes place (as per comparision of breathing cycle with other cycles described therein, such as rain, seasons etc. uthgItha is the last portion of ArohaNA. The meditation on last portion of inhalation sounds like Om. It can be concluded that meditation regarding uthgItha is superior to spelling out the word 'OM' because meditation is superior to rite as per zaGkarA's commentary. uthgItha represents the leadership within. If we consider uthgItha is a brick, all the vedic gods such as indra, brhaspati, viSNu &c are made up of this brick. They are all different forms of uthgItha. Hope this helps. Bhadraiah Mallampalli From Vaidix at AOL.COM Thu Apr 2 07:58:09 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 02:58:09 -0500 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037342.23782.11453652917892324286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I remember having read a verse in RGveda (page 583 in Indian edition by Griffith, I believe it is 10th mandala) which says 'O Agni, you successfuly quelled the hateful dASas and AryAs'. (Or look for AryAs in index to find the verse, that is how I found it.) Doesn't this mean the vedic tribes were other than both dAsAs and AryAs? Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 2 00:51:39 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 05:51:39 +0500 Subject: The Origins of OM or Omkar - A Hypothesis Message-ID: <161227037327.23782.14437750246953305604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:15 AM 4/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > >Given below is an extract from my webpage on Symbols and Symbolisms >from Ancient India. I seek the feedback of Indologists on this >hypothesis. > >Regards > >Sudheer Birodkar >____________________________________ > OmityEdakSaramidagM sarvaM tasyOpavyAkhyAnaM bhUtambhavatbhaviSyaditi sarvamOkAra Eva yacchAnyaH trikAlAtItaM tadapyOGkAra Eva sarvaM hyEtadbrahma ayamAtmA brahma sOyamAtmA catuSpAt. mAndukyOpaniSad 1. From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Thu Apr 2 07:29:28 1998 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 08:29:28 +0100 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037337.23782.9629326547003402222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > > Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > >It is difficult to see how this can be taken as a proof of a pre-Aryan > >urbanised > >culture being followed by Aryans without cities but living among ruins. It > >is just an > >indication of population shifts caused by major geological shifts, nothing > >more. > > Why "geological" ? I can understand why the Aryans are excluded by > you: "that's the other theory". But why not God's wrath, or anything else ? > Almost all rivers of plains change their course along their history > without destroying civilizations! To my knowledge, countries such > Bangla-Desh suffer each year major geological disasters but survive. This is precisely what I wanted to say: Indian culture did survive in spite of local geological disasters or more general geological changes inducing local or more extensive population shifts. Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent, Belgium From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 2 14:41:19 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 08:41:19 -0600 Subject: Horses in Megaliths Message-ID: <161227037349.23782.6077544381370788022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are about 10 references I have about the HORSES in megalithic burials. Thanks to Prof. Y. V. Vassilkov's comment to look for them. This is only a skimming of titles. There are many reports titled as "Excavation: Place X"; "Megalithic Complex: Place X (Year Y)"; etc., which can be searched inside. Prof. Gregory Possehl, Univ. of Pennsylvania, informed me that there are horses and horse trappings in megalithic burials and Ms. Praveena Gullapalli is working with him on this topic. Prof. Possehl said they will send a bibliography. I will post what I have next week. I also contacted Prof. K. Rajan, Dept. of Archaeology, Tamil univ., Thanjavur. He got his Ph.D from Dr. S. R. Rao. Dr. K. Rajan has worked extensively for the last 15 years on Tamil Nadu megaliths. See K. Rajan, Archaeology of Tamil Nadu (Kongu country), Noida: Books India 1994 . There are 72 pages full of pictures from megaliths. When I get replies from K. Rajan, R. Nagaswamy, or F. C. Southworth, I will post. The 'horse-centered' Aryan texts, classical Tamil sangam texts, sculptures from historical period (eg., Sanchi), the huge terracota horses that potters make (prehistoric?) show horses increase manyfold compared to IVC. Further, Indian megalithic horse culture may be analogous to Greek situation of texts vs. archaeology like what Dr. Thillaud says. Regards, N. Ganesan From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Thu Apr 2 17:01:42 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 09:01:42 -0800 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037361.23782.3052146519805977827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Dominique.Thillaud" wrote: > Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > >It is difficult to see how this can be taken as a proof of a pre-Aryan > >urbanised > >culture being followed by Aryans without cities but living among ruins. It > >is just an > >indication of population shifts caused by major geological shifts, nothing > >more. > > Why "geological" ? I can understand why the Aryans are excluded by > you: "that's the other theory". But why not God's wrath, or anything else ? > Almost all rivers of plains change their course along their history > without destroying civilizations! To my knowledge, countries such > Bangla-Desh suffer each year major geological disasters but survive. > Strong climatic changes occur in Mesopotamia but it seems that > Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans and Arabians play a greater role in the > cultural changes of the country ... But then you have civilizations like those in Mesoamerica and Ponape which vanish due to geological/climatic change. The Sahara was once a fairly populated and wet region until weather changes caused mass migrations. > > I understand well why a theory showing the Indus Valley > civilization (eventually "Dravidian") destroyed by invaders (eventually > "Aryan") don't is today a "politically correct" one. But the arguments > against it are poor (most of them "in absentia") and highly suspect to be > justified by non-historical motives. > We have some simple facts: > - Indus Valley civilization disappears, just leaving ruins. More like remains of deserted cities. > - subsequent dwellers of the country speak a language strongly > related to a great lot of languages spoken out of this country. And related to languages spoken within the country. > - the same dwellers have ancient text talking about destruction of > cities. But not about origin elsewhere. In fact, all the peoples in the Vedas are already situated in India. The destruction of cities comes from warfare between different kingdoms in India. > Against: > - We've never found a "Dravidian" corpse with an "Aryan" spade in > the breast. Nor an "Aryan" cultural complex. Or even an "Aryan" skeletal series in a relevant time period. > - We've never found prooves of incendy in the ruins. Nor of Kurgan or other Central Asian complexes. > - The Dravidian tradition don't knows stories about his own > destruction. > - The Aryans living today in India are very peaceful. > Not anymore so than most people. Remember the subcontinent has had almost continuous strife since WWII. At least four major insurgencies, and cold/hot conflicts between India and Pakistan and internally in Sri Lanka. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Apr 2 07:12:26 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 09:12:26 +0200 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' In-Reply-To: <35223A8A.1DE5@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227037334.23782.17960996517158331199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Seldeslachts wrote: >It is difficult to see how this can be taken as a proof of a pre-Aryan >urbanised >culture being followed by Aryans without cities but living among ruins. It >is just an >indication of population shifts caused by major geological shifts, nothing >more. Why "geological" ? I can understand why the Aryans are excluded by you: "that's the other theory". But why not God's wrath, or anything else ? Almost all rivers of plains change their course along their history without destroying civilizations! To my knowledge, countries such Bangla-Desh suffer each year major geological disasters but survive. Strong climatic changes occur in Mesopotamia but it seems that Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans and Arabians play a greater role in the cultural changes of the country ... Like England, France, Italia, China, &c., India was invaded many times. Just judging by this list, the last invader succeeded to impose his language, at least in the elite. But it would be difficult to show the archeological remains of the destructions caused by him. And not because he was peaceful! I understand well why a theory showing the Indus Valley civilization (eventually "Dravidian") destroyed by invaders (eventually "Aryan") don't is today a "politically correct" one. But the arguments against it are poor (most of them "in absentia") and highly suspect to be justified by non-historical motives. We have some simple facts: - Indus Valley civilization disappears, just leaving ruins. - subsequent dwellers of the country speak a language strongly related to a great lot of languages spoken out of this country. - the same dwellers have ancient text talking about destruction of cities. Against: - We've never found a "Dravidian" corpse with an "Aryan" spade in the breast. - We've never found prooves of incendy in the ruins. - The Dravidian tradition don't knows stories about his own destruction. - The Aryans living today in India are very peaceful. My choice is easy. I recall that I don't prefer Hindi-speakers to Tamil-speakers, nor the contrary. I respect both, Dominique PS without any link: the TAB and CR characters need just 1 byte and give texts easier to read. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Thu Apr 2 17:12:29 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 09:12:29 -0800 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037368.23782.8414863023437185209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vaidix > Dear list members, > > I remember having read a verse in RGveda (page 583 in Indian edition by > Griffith, I believe it is 10th mandala) which says 'O Agni, you successfuly > quelled the hateful dASas and AryAs'. (Or look for AryAs in index to find the > verse, that is how I found it.) > > Doesn't this mean the vedic tribes were other than both dAsAs and AryAs? > Another perplexing matter is that in the Rgveda , the Supreme Deity is called an Asura, and the latter are held in a favorable light. Eventually, Asuras become demons opposed to the Devas. In Iran, it is the Daevas who are demons opposed to the Ahura. In my view, the texts preceeding the polarization of Asuras and Devas represent the earliest period and these appear only in India (as far as I'm aware). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 2 04:20:24 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 09:20:24 +0500 Subject: information solicited Message-ID: <161227037330.23782.15670958391020093273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall be grateful if any member on the list can help me with the details of the publisher of the following title: Watt, George, A. 1889-96. A Dictionary of Economic Products of India, 6 vols. Calcutta. I used these volumes when I was at UC Berkeley in the sixties. Thanks in anticipation. Bh.K. end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Apr 2 07:41:29 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 09:41:29 +0200 Subject: Carvakas and incest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037385.23782.17191014034146162516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >A friend told me a few days ago that according to his memory Tibetan >Siddhanta (grub mtha') texts say that the Carvakas system was devised to >account for the fact that the founder of the system was (this was not quite >clear to me) a product of incest/a participant in incest with his own >mother. Are there Indic sources for such a legend? (I don't even have an >exact Tibetan source, and have no materials at hand to check in.) > >(I am not particularly interested in the Carvakas per se -- but rather in >the incest part of the whole thing.) >Jonathan Silk Until today, cArvAka was just for me the false brahman of the MBh and I'm astonished to learn that a philosoph had choosed a so evil name! What link between the mythical and actual character? There is a possibility that the legends about the last could be influenced by the ones about the first? I don't remember incest in the rakSasa's story but better specialists of the MBh have perhaps something to say ... Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Thu Apr 2 14:54:45 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 09:54:45 -0500 Subject: Chariots Message-ID: <161227037351.23782.9013949134834832887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > In addition to Vidyanath Rao's bibliographic info on chariots, here is > another piece on the chariot: > > Jacqueline Manessy-Guitton: Recherches sur la terminologie du "char" en > v?dique, en myc?nien et chez Hom?re. Etudes Indo-Europeennes, numero 20. > (1987?). Thanks for the ref. This must be be classified as a journal, for I could not find it in worldcat. There is also Sparreboom's ``Chariots in the Veda'' and some material in Rau's ``altertumskunde'' (I don't have the precise details handy). I avoided mentioning them because they start from assumptions about construction of chariots then proceed to interpret the textual data. I have reservations about some of these assumtions. I had intended to write to Sparreboom and Littauer about some of these, but never did. I want to do that before I talk about them. Regards -Nath From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Thu Apr 2 15:00:10 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 10:00:10 -0500 Subject: The horse argument, part 1 Message-ID: <161227037353.23782.5257634529154518346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > >Dominique Thillaud had written a post saying that evidence of horse is > >not found in Mycenean Greece. If I remember right, cheek pieces of the > >type used in the Near East and Central Asia have been found in the > >shaft graves of Mycenean times. I don't know the precise figures, but > >from what I have read, these cheek pieces were not rare. > > You say here more than I do. Horse's bones and chariots were found > in Mycenian digs. But their number was fewer than expected by a simple > reading of epics. The remains show a great importance of the horse as a > prestige animal, but we don't have prooves of an actual use of chariots in > the warfare. I apologize for misinterpreting what you wrote. My understanding is that how chariots were used is not clear. Homer writes as if chariots were simply transportation (a classicist friend of mine called it `glorified taxis'). It is not practical to joust from chariots as some people assume. Chariots can serve as mobile missile firing platforms, and vedic texts do suggest such an use. So we might expect more evidence for horses and chariots from sites associated to Indo-Aryans than in Mycenean sites. But it seems that the reverse is the case. Regards -Nath > Nothing else. Regards, > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Thu Apr 2 09:29:53 1998 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 10:29:53 +0100 Subject: information solicited In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980402091017.354f6e72@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227037344.23782.16630126213794887296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 2 Apr 98 at 9:20, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: > I shall be grateful if any member on the list can help me with the > details of the publisher of the following title: > > Watt, George, A. 1889-96. A Dictionary of Economic Products of > India, 6 vols. Calcutta. George Watt. A Dictionary of the Economic Products of India. In Six Volumes. First published 1889. Second reprint 1972: Published by Mrs. Rani Kapoor, Cosmo Publications, 10178 Library Road, Delhi-6. All the best, Roland Steiner -- Dr. Roland Steiner Fachgebiet Indologie, FB 11 der Philipps-Universitaet Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6 D-35032 Marburg (Briefanschrift / for letters) D-35039 Marburg (Paketanschrift / for parcels) Germany Tel.: +49-6421-282184; Fax: +49-6421-284995 email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Apr 2 09:32:30 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 10:32:30 +0100 Subject: Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math 2 [Correction] Message-ID: <161227037347.23782.5602542393381285589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My colleague adds the following: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:27:27 -0500 Subject: Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math 2 Ooops, sorry when I wrote my previous email it was very late last night and I made a mistake. The current Shankaracharya recognized by Maharishi's movement is Vasudevanand. He's presiding at the Kumbha Mela that is happening now in Haridwar. It was Shantanand who just passed away this last February. Vishnudevanand passed away some time ago. Vasudevanand was a disciple of Shantanand. To my knowledge there was never any ill-will between Shantanand and Vishnudevanand and they often appeared together at our movement yagyas. One of my Indian friends was just initiated into Brahmacharya by Vasudevanand a few weeks ago. By the way, although Shantanand may have been a simple man and may not have been as flashy as some people may like, my friends that have seen him said that his darshan was extremely powerful. He was obviously a highly enlightened yogi. One interesting thing came up [recently]. Several people mentioned that in 1986 there was a decision by the U.P. High Court that decided the controversy about Jyotir Math in favor of Vishnudevanand and as part of the decision offered Dwaraka Peeth to Swarupanand so that everyone would be happy. I guess he took Dwaraka and decided to hold on to Jyotir Math also. Anyway, its all a big mess [...] :-) ---- end forwarded message ---- -- DW From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Thu Apr 2 15:37:23 1998 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 10:37:23 -0500 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037358.23782.3452718284821668821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Just judging by this list, the last invader succeeded to impose his > language, at least in the elite. But it would be difficult to show the > archeological remains of the destructions caused by him. But there is plenty of inscriptional and matrial evidence of connections with a distant place. Can you point to such evidence for Aryans? I am not sure the British delibrately destroyed previous constructions. On the other hand, evidence of sieges of forts, mining and sapping are there. For one example, you may to wish to visit Mysore and the surrounding areas. > - subsequent dwellers of the country speak a language strongly > related to a great lot of languages spoken out of this country. > - the same dwellers have ancient text talking about destruction of > cities. Does `pur' in RV really mean city? And what do you think of Rau's ``Meaning of pur in Vedic literature''? Archaeologists do not see evidence of destruction at IVC sites. Are they being merely `politically correct'? Regards -Nath > My choice is easy. I do envy your certainity. I wish I could believe so easily. Unfortunately, I was trained to look even at my own proofs with a very critical eye, and raise objections to myself before others did. Unfortunately, this carries over to everything I read. Regards -Nath From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Thu Apr 2 23:15:14 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 15:15:14 -0800 Subject: "Asura" in the Vedas Message-ID: <161227037379.23782.4970580832989231851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen W Thrasher wrote: > This is the dissertation Bob Hueckstedt recalled: > > TITLE: ASURA--IN EARLY VEDIC RELIGION. > AUTHOR: HALE, WASH EDWARD > DEGREE: PH.D. > YEAR: 1980 > INSTITUTION: HARVARD UNIVERSITY; 0084 > SOURCE: ADD, VOL. X1980, , 00001 Pages > Thanks to you and Bob for this information. Now can Edwin dig this article out of his basement and send it to Lars. ;) Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Thu Apr 2 21:39:03 1998 From: hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (RAH) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 15:39:03 -0600 Subject: "Asura" in the Vedas In-Reply-To: <199804021646.IAA13892@dry.jps.net> Message-ID: <161227037374.23782.11379170008487744197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Paul K. Manansala wrote: > Another perplexing matter is that in the Rgveda , the Supreme > Deity is called an Asura, and the latter are held in a favorable > light. Eventually, Asuras become demons opposed to the Devas. In > Iran, it is the Daevas who are demons opposed to the Ahura. In my > view, the texts preceeding the polarization of Asuras and Devas > represent the earliest period and these appear only in India (as far > as I'm aware). > > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala > About twenty years ago a fellow graduate student at Harvard, who was ahead of me and whose name was, I believe, Ed Hale, did his dissertation on the meaning and usage of _asura_ in the Vedas. I think it came out as a book later, but I have no references. Someone else may know. Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies phone 1 204 474-6427 fax 1 204 474-7601 From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Apr 2 21:15:46 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 16:15:46 -0500 Subject: Philosophy bibliography Message-ID: <161227037372.23782.10162738557993393246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A number of requests for bibliographic information on topics, persons, and works in Indian philosophy have been posted on INDOLOGY recently. IMHO this list is an excellent venue for asking for critical bibliographic commments, such as what is the best book or article on this, which is the best edition, does anyone know anything recent and good and important on this. But I have the feeling some people are putting out queries absolutely cold. Might I suggest that everyone first check the standard bibliography of Indian philosophy: ACCESSION: 38440888 AUTHOR: Potter, Karl H. TITLE: Encyclopedia of Indian philosophies. Bibliography / EDITION: 3rd rev. ed. PLACE: Delhi : PUBLISHER: M. Banarsidass, YEAR: 1995 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 2 v. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Encyclopedia of Indian philosophies ; v.1 NOTES: Vol. 1 of earlier edition titled: Bibliography of Indian philosophies. Includes indexes. ISBN: 8120803086 (v. 1) 8120803078 (set) SUBJECT: Philosophy, Indic -- Bibliography. This is copublished in the U.S. by Princeton University Press and should be easily available in Europe from Otto Harrasowitz. It might be good when requesting bibliographical assistance to specify where one has already searched so helpful colleagues do not duplicate one's labors. Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Pennsylvania Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Apr 2 22:05:46 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 17:05:46 -0500 Subject: "Asura" in the Vedas Message-ID: <161227037377.23782.508077171861586229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is the dissertation Bob Hueckstedt recalled: TITLE: ASURA--IN EARLY VEDIC RELIGION. AUTHOR: HALE, WASH EDWARD DEGREE: PH.D. YEAR: 1980 INSTITUTION: HARVARD UNIVERSITY; 0084 SOURCE: ADD, VOL. X1980, , 00001 Pages This was published as: ACCESSION: 16219224 AUTHOR: Hale, Wash Edward, 1947- TITLE: Asura- in early Vedic religion / EDITION: 1st ed. PLACE: Delhi : PUBLISHER: Motilal Banarsidass, YEAR: 1986 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xvi, 226 p. ; 22 cm. NOTES: Includes passages in Sanskrit (Sanskrit in roman) Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--Harvard University, 1980) Includes index. Bibliography: p. [205]-217. ISBN: 8120800613 : SUBJECT: Asura (The Sanskrit word) Vedic language -- Etymology. Asuras (Hindu deities) Allen Thrasher From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Apr 3 01:13:06 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 17:13:06 -0800 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037388.23782.17380153012646525497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:01 AM 4/2/98 -800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >But then you have civilizations like those in Mesoamerica and Ponape >which vanish due to geological/climatic change. Which Mesoamerican civilization are you referring to? I have always thought that a comparison between the demise of the IVC and the decline (not vanishing) of the Mayas of Mesoamerica could be fruitful and stimulating. Our present knowledge attributes the decline of the Mayas to several factors, including depletion of natural resources (partly due to agricultural techniques) and warfare between different Maya city-states. The arrival of the Spanish in the 15th century dealt the final blow, but it is quite clear that, by then, the civilization was in decline, and many cities had already been abandoned and swallowed up by the jungle (or, maybe, I should say the rain forest). But, after the Spanish conquest, the Mayans didn't disappear. They were conquered and acculturated, and Spanish became the dominant language, but the Mayans remained in the area. Several Mayan languages survive today, and Christianity was syncretized with previous religious traditions. (All of this also applies to other cultures in Mesoamerica and the Andean region of South America). In a different area of Mesoamerica, the Teotihuacan culture, an impressive, huge urban center that includes the pyramids of the Sun and the Moon (so-called), was already in ruins by the time the Aztecs entered the scene and built an empire that subdued most other groups and imposed their own language (Nahuatl). The Aztecs themselves were, soon after, conquered by the Spanish who then imposed the Spanish language. There is an interesting contrast between the study of pre-Columbian America and ancient India. For pre-Columbian America there is very little literary evidence, both because many texts (the codices) were destroyed and also because there was no writing system. Neither was there an oral tradition of textual transmission resembling the Indian one. On the other hand, there is a seemingly endless supply of archaeological remains. Even today, new cities are being discovered, and sealed tombs opened up. The result is that knowledge of pre-Columbian cultures depends heavily on archaeology. The linguistic study of pre-Columbian families of languages, I must add, is in its infancy, compared to the study of Indo-European. In India, on the other hand, it is only recently that archaeology has come more to the forefront, and this has very much to do with the IVC. Ancient Indian history has been studied largely through the impressive amount of textual evidence we have, and through linguistics. So here we have, in a sense, two extremes of the spectrum: In Mesoamerica there is plenty of archaeological information, but little textual evidence, while linguistics still has a lot of ground to cover (the Mayan glyphs, by the way, have been deciphered only recently). In India, we have a large amount of textual evidence, while archaeology is only recently becoming more important, and linguistical studies have gone a long way (although there is, obviously, much more to be done). This could serve as a reminder that linguistics and archaeology are both very important. The problem is not the data itself, but how we interpret it. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Apr 3 01:23:06 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 17:23:06 -0800 Subject: Copyright on the Internet Message-ID: <161227037390.23782.6446963368781619094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, There is a new copyright law (HR2281) making its way through the U.S. Congress that could make it illegal to share certain published materials through the internet. A strong opponent of this law is Pamela Samuelson, a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley. A conference on these proposed changes will take place in UC, Berkeley, towards the end of April, and there is a Web site for the conference that explains aspects of the law. For those interested, the url is: http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/BCLT/events/ucc2b/ Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Thu Apr 2 15:32:06 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 17:32:06 +0200 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' In-Reply-To: <3bb9a1cc.35234514@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227037356.23782.10837530337262861348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > >I remember having read a verse in RGveda (page 583 in Indian edition by >Griffith, I believe it is 10th mandala) which says 'O Agni, you successfuly >quelled the hateful dASas and AryAs'. (Or look for AryAs in index to find the >verse, that is how I found it.) > >Doesn't this mean the vedic tribes were other than both dAsAs and AryAs? > No, I do not think this would be a correct conclusion. There are several passages where the poets seem to identify themselves with the Aryas, and - on the other hand - others where their party fights both against dAsas/dasyus and Aryas. It seems reasonable to me to keep to the traditional explanation that Aryan tribes often fought against each other. Best regards, Georg v. Simson From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Apr 2 23:01:19 1998 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 18:01:19 -0500 Subject: "Asura" in the Vedas In-Reply-To: <199804022249.OAA05803@dry.jps.net> Message-ID: <161227037382.23782.18280252326838409448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Paul K. Manansala wrote: > > TITLE: ASURA--IN EARLY VEDIC RELIGION. > > AUTHOR: HALE, WASH EDWARD > > DEGREE: PH.D. > > YEAR: 1980 > > INSTITUTION: HARVARD UNIVERSITY; 0084 > > SOURCE: ADD, VOL. X1980, , 00001 Pages > > > > Thanks to you and Bob for this information. Now can Edwin dig > this article out of his basement and send it to Lars. ;) Don't have this in my basement, I'm afraid. But I have seen it sitting on the dissertation shelf upstairs in the library of the Center for the Study of World Religion where I live. Edwin From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Apr 2 16:41:30 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 18:41:30 +0200 Subject: Chariots Message-ID: <161227037363.23782.11869105321932630009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:54 02.04.98 -0500, you wrote: >Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >> In addition to Vidyanath Rao's bibliographic info on chariots, here is >> another piece on the chariot: >> >> Jacqueline Manessy-Guitton: Recherches sur la terminologie du "char" en >> v?dique, en myc?nien et chez Hom?re. Etudes Indo-Europeennes, numero 20. >> (1987?). > > >Thanks for the ref. This must be be classified as a journal, for >I could not find it in worldcat. Correct. This is a journal. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Apr 2 16:46:42 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 18:46:42 +0200 Subject: The horse argument, part 1 Message-ID: <161227037366.23782.1815018976835566433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> You say here more than I do. Horse's bones and chariots were found >> in Mycenian digs. But their number was fewer than expected by a simple >> reading of epics. The remains show a great importance of the horse as a >> prestige animal, but we don't have prooves of an actual use of chariots in >> the warfare. > >I apologize for misinterpreting what you wrote. > >My understanding is that how chariots were used is not clear. >Homer writes as if chariots were simply transportation (a classicist >friend of mine called it `glorified taxis'). One of my old Classics teachers said exactly the same thing: "They come to the battle on their chariots as if they were riding taxis." His conclusion was that Homer knew about chariots but that he had not seen them used in battle. The Romans used chariots too, but only for racing. Old instruments of war sometimes end up as pure sports articles. Today, we throw spears and shoot the bow at the Olympics, but - pace Rambo - both weapons keep a low profile in today's warfare. Best regars, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Apr 2 17:29:07 1998 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 19:29:07 +0200 Subject: Madhva's bhashya on the BS Message-ID: <161227037370.23782.18105811541127888438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone on this list know of -- or even better, own -- an acceptable English translation of Madhva's Brahmasutrabhashya? No such translation seems to be available from Swedish university libraries. I particularly need the commentary on the first sutra (+ introductory remarks, if any, by Madhva). Thanks in advance! Best regards, Martin Gansten From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 3 03:33:57 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 19:33:57 -0800 Subject: Carvakas and incest Message-ID: <161227037399.23782.5202579253527905966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>A friend told me a few days ago that according to his memory Tibetan >>Siddhanta (grub mtha') texts say that the Carvakas system was devised to >>account for the fact that the founder of the system was (this was not quite >>clear to me) a product of incest/a participant in incest with his own >>mother. Are there Indic sources for such a legend? (I don't even have an >>exact Tibetan source, and have no materials at hand to check in.) The cArvAka/lokAyata system is usually ascribed to bRhaspati. The so-called bRhaspati sUtras and a commentary on them are both lost. Indian tradition says that bRhaspati, indra's purohita, devised it to mislead the daityas. Vedic prajApati and bRhaspati are prototypes for brahmA. Both prajApati and brahmA have no option but to create through an act of incest with a daughter, which is denounced by rudra and/or mind-born sons who become Rshis. See "The Mythology of Brahma" by Greg Bailey. In one account, brahmA spills his semen, which is cast into the fire by the outraged devas. From the burning coals (angAra), angiras is born, and when they are ignited again, bRhaspati is born. Perchance, this is where the incest theme for bRhaspati's birth comes from? Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Fri Apr 3 04:00:07 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 20:00:07 -0800 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037402.23782.8850840207692316365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > At 09:01 AM 4/2/98 -800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >But then you have civilizations like those in Mesoamerica and Ponape > >which vanish due to geological/climatic change. > > Which Mesoamerican civilization are you referring to? > > I have always thought that a comparison between the demise of the IVC and > the decline (not vanishing) of the Mayas of Mesoamerica could be fruitful > and stimulating. Our present knowledge attributes the decline of the Mayas > to several factors, including depletion of natural resources (partly due to > agricultural techniques) and warfare between different Maya city-states. > The arrival of the Spanish in the 15th century dealt the final blow, but it > is quite clear that, by then, the civilization was in decline, and many > cities had already been abandoned and swallowed up by the jungle (or, maybe, > I should say the rain forest). > > But, after the Spanish conquest, the Mayans didn't disappear. T I was really referring to the regions that had been abandoned. I really don't think the IVC people have disappeared either. You can still see the same type of faces displayed in IVC art in India today. Conditions may have caused mass migrations; possibly similar to what happened in the Holocene Sahara. Btw, do you know what eventually happened to the Inca civilization? > > So here we have, in a sense, two extremes of the spectrum: In Mesoamerica > there is plenty of archaeological information, but little textual evidence, > while linguistics still has a lot of ground to cover (the Mayan glyphs, by > the way, have been deciphered only recently). In India, we have a large > amount of textual evidence, while archaeology is only recently becoming more > important, and linguistical studies have gone a long way (although there is, > obviously, much more to be done). Somewhat surprising that nothing similar to the great Mayan centers have been found in the period between the fall of IVC and the Mauryan empire. One would have expected the first great post-IVC urban centers to develop in the former IVC region but instead they pop up in East India. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Fri Apr 3 02:23:06 1998 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 21:23:06 -0500 Subject: _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Message-ID: <161227037392.23782.7125039205895287253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, all: Currently the International Institute of India Studies and World Heritage Press are engaged in a subscription drive on behalf of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. If you like what we are doing please help us obtain new subscribers. Please encourage your colleagues and students and please GET YOUR LIBRARY to subscribe to _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. Every subscription counts!!! Many thanks in advance. Full details on _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal Homepage at: < http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ >. Regards, Sushil From Vaidix at AOL.COM Fri Apr 3 06:20:20 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 01:20:20 -0500 Subject: The Origins of OM or Omkar - A Hypothesis Message-ID: <161227037404.23782.8293174745131524917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sarma Garu, > yazchandasAmRSabhO vizvarUpaH > chandObhyO~dhyamRtAthsaMbabhUva > samEndrO mEdhayA spRNOtu > amRtasya dEva dhAraNO bhUyAsaM > zarIraM mE vicarSaNam > jihvA mE madhumattamA > karNAbhyAM bhUrivizruvam > brahmaNaH kOzOsi mEdhayA pihitaH > Zrutam mE gOpAya. taittirIyOpaniSad 1-7 > Om is called the BULL (best) of the mantrAs. All the books translate 'chandasAm' and 'chandobhyo' as Vedas or mantras. Any one looked into the aspect that Om is the bull among the metres? because chandas also means metre. If so, how exactly? Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Apr 3 07:24:50 1998 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 02:24:50 -0500 Subject: Indic transliteration scheme 2.03 on the Web Message-ID: <161227037409.23782.12689654101276555334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the plain text form of the Tables, the transliterations of CANDRA E, CANDRA O have been corrected to e_breve, o_breve, respectively. Again, my apologies, Tony On March 31, 1998, Anthony P Stone wrote: >The latest draft Indic transliteration scheme is now available at: > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203a.htm Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. 20 Harding Close, Redbourn, St Albans, Herts, AL3 7NT, UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1582 792 497 Email: stone_catendompuserve.com Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From Vaidix at AOL.COM Fri Apr 3 08:46:00 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 03:46:00 -0500 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037412.23782.13295497593213355364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Dear list members, >> > > I remember having read a verse in RGveda (page 583 in Indian edition by > > Griffith, I believe it is 10th mandala) which says 'O Agni, you successfuly > > quelled the hateful dASas and AryAs'. (Or look for AryAs in index to find the > > verse, that is how I found it.) > > > > Doesn't this mean the vedic tribes were other than both dAsAs and AryAs? > > I rechecked all references to AryAs/dAsAs/dAsyus in Rgveda. At number of places I see preference to AryAs, but there are other combinations as well. At one place it says 'Increase hate of AryAs and dAsAs'. For me, the whole AryA/dAsA/dAsyu conflict looks sham. The references to these tribes looks qualitatively or quantitatively no different from the references to other mysterious peoples/tribes like Rbhus or angirasas &c with the exception that AryAs and dAsAs fight out, while others dont. I also do not rule out Vedic authors' liberal use of names of existing tribes to explain some of their 'pet theories' just as they use Sun, Moon &c. I would not give any weightage to either Rgveda or GriffithpurANa unless there is other historic evidence. This is my last letter on AryA/Dasyus. > Another perplexing matter is that in the Rgveda , the Supreme > Deity is called an Asura, and the latter are held in a favorable > light. Eventually, Asuras become demons opposed to the Devas. In > Iran, it is the Daevas who are demons opposed to the Ahura. In my > view, the texts preceeding the polarization of Asuras and Devas > represent the earliest period and these appear only in India (as far > as I'm aware). > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala I also read about Asuri (or long tongue) a Vedic seer. There is also some new literature about Japanese Rgveda which has a character Ashura who is a lady, or sometimes a person of uncertain sex. Check out http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/7201/rgv1.htm. Any scholars from Japan could confirm these stories please? Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Fri Apr 3 13:41:59 1998 From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 05:41:59 -0800 Subject: The horse argument, part 1 In-Reply-To: <199804021646.SAA12857@online.no> Message-ID: <161227037420.23782.376205636849733075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > One of my old Classics teachers said exactly the same thing: "They come to > the battle on their chariots as if they were riding taxis." His conclusion > was that Homer knew about chariots but that he had not seen them used in > battle. The Romans used chariots too, but only for racing. Old instruments > of war sometimes end up as pure sports articles. Today, we throw spears and > shoot the bow at the Olympics, but - pace Rambo - both weapons keep a low > profile in today's warfare. Ah, and one of my India teachers pointed out how taxis (actually it was those Official cars with the erect, sheathed thing on the hood) in India are used like chariots! But that was in the old days (15 yrs ago), when having a government job MEANT something, and being driven through the crowded streets, arriving a place, etc. in one of these things distinguished the passenger. Like a being in charriot. Peter Claus From thompson at JLC.NET Fri Apr 3 11:09:45 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 07:09:45 -0400 Subject: "Asura" in the Vedas Message-ID: <161227037418.23782.10068271157220740464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to bring this thread back to Paul Kekai Manansala's original point, which was: "Another perplexing matter is that in the Rgveda , the Supreme Deity is called an Asura, and the latter are held in a favorable light. Eventually, Asuras become demons opposed to the Devas. In Iran, it is the Daevas who are demons opposed to the Ahura. In my view, the texts preceeding the polarization of Asuras and Devas represent the earliest period and these appear only in India (as far as I'm aware)." In the common Indo-Iranian period the *asura/ahura* vs. *deva/daeuua* dichotomy didn't exist. *asura/ahura* meant "lord" and could be applied to any "lordly" figure, whether human or divine, friend or foe. *deva/daeuua* meant "god" and could be applied to any divine figure, whether one's own or someone else's [in Iranian, eventually, ALWAYS someone else's]. Among Iranians, under the spell of Zarathustra, the term *ahura* eventually came to be associated with the abstract term *mazdA* [= Vedic medhA], and the pair unites to form the name of Zarathustra's preferred and exclusive god, Ahura MazdA. The Avestan god Mithra, for example, is never even mentioned in the Gathas attributed to Zarathustra, but he eventually makes a strong comeback. In Vedic, as far as I can tell, there was no uncontested "Supreme Deity." In general, in Vedic, deities, just like mortals, had to fight to gain the attention of their peers, both human and divine. The term *asura* became associated with some Vedic gods. but it was also associated with non-Vedic gods, and thus, in the BrAhmaNas, came to be associated eventually with a set of demons. Thus the "polarization of Asuras and Devas" is *late* in both Avestan and in Vedic. Common Indo-Iranian presents us with a picture of a culture in which it was taken for granted that the gods had to compete for our attention, and there was no supreme deity who could capture the attention of everyone. Of course, there was nothing like monotheism in this culture. Until Zarathustra came along. Perhaps. And after he departed, it looks like everybody went back to what we might call "the old paradigm." Best wishes, George Thompson From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 3 03:52:39 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 08:52:39 +0500 Subject: The Origins of OM or Omkar - A Hypothesis Message-ID: <161227037394.23782.8539467008704787946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:15 AM 4/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > >Given below is an extract from my webpage on Symbols and Symbolisms >from Ancient India. I seek the feedback of Indologists on this >hypothesis. > >Regards > >Sudheer Birodkar >____________________________________ > yazchandasAmRSabhO vizvarUpaH chandObhyO~dhyamRtAthsaMbabhUva samEndrO mEdhayA spRNOtu amRtasya dEva dhAraNO bhUyAsaM zarIraM mE vicarSaNam jihvA mE madhumattamA karNAbhyAM bhUrivizruvam brahmaNaH kOzOsi mEdhayA pihitaH Zrutam mE gOpAya. taittirIyOpaniSad 1-7 Om is called the BULL (best) of the mantrAs. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 3 03:52:42 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 08:52:42 +0500 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037397.23782.12082165636061735626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:12 AM 4/2/98 -800, you wrote: > Vaidix > > >> Dear list members, >> >> I remember having read a verse in RGveda (page 583 in Indian edition by >> Griffith, I believe it is 10th mandala) which says 'O Agni, you successfuly >> quelled the hateful dASas and AryAs'. (Or look for AryAs in index to find the >> verse, that is how I found it.) >> >> Doesn't this mean the vedic tribes were other than both dAsAs and AryAs? >> > >Another perplexing matter is that in the Rgveda , the Supreme >Deity is called an Asura, and the latter are held in a favorable >light. Eventually, Asuras become demons opposed to the Devas. In >Iran, it is the Daevas who are demons opposed to the Ahura. In my >view, the texts preceeding the polarization of Asuras and Devas >represent the earliest period and these appear only in India (as far >as I'm aware). > >Regards, >Paul Kekai Manansala > > The synonym "pUrvadEvAH" for asuras I think may be significant. regards, sarm From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Apr 3 07:19:42 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 09:19:42 +0200 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037406.23782.8098060944178416084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Somewhat surprising that nothing similar to the great Mayan centers >have been found in the period between the fall of IVC and the Mauryan >empire. One would have expected the first great post-IVC urban centers to >develop in the former IVC region but instead they pop up in East India. > >Regards, >Paul Kekai Manansala I believe that the disappearance of city culture for a few centuries is not unparallelled. This also happened in "Roman" Germany after the collapse of the Western Roman empire. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Fri Apr 3 16:07:13 1998 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 11:07:13 -0500 Subject: "Asura" in the Vedas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037425.23782.17118093400338163754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What legs does the theory that the meaning of the Iranians' elevation of Ahura and demonization of devis, while the Indians elevate devas and 'titanize' asuras, indicates a social split -- each group demonizing the other and the other's gods? Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Fri Apr 3 19:10:49 1998 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Hardy) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 13:10:49 -0600 Subject: female Hindu saints Message-ID: <161227037429.23782.2816054997314364142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings list-members, An associate of mine (who is not on the Indology-list) is looking for information on the topic of 'female saints' in Hinduism (including biographies, etc. on particular individuals) for a course she is teaching. I realise this is a very broad topic, but any references which list-members can provide will be of help. (Please feel free to e-mail me privately, and I will pass them on to her.) Thanks very much, Kristen Hardy, umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Apr 3 19:47:39 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 13:47:39 -0600 Subject: gender and Grammar In-Reply-To: <199804031910.NAA27153@electra.cc.umanitoba.ca> Message-ID: <161227037432.23782.3786755750671215024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been looking through our library here at Iowa, also Michigan and Indiana, as well as the CRLC and RLIN with no success (search string: k=india and grammar and gender). I've found a few general overviews (19 hits with search string k=gender and grammar) but these tend to go toward the socio-political side of male dominant archetypes in society, oppression of the female, rejection of gaya, all grammar is a form of misogyny, etc. In short-- does anyone know of any sanskrit-specific studies of grammatical gender? Not so much the technical linguistic side as the sociolinguistic implications. I am quite intrigued to find every case of tanuu' in the RV to be feminine and I'm trying to see what there is to be learned--if anything--about the relationship of grammatical gender to any exegetical level of interpretation. Could it relate to the deities consorts by indirect implication? Kind thanks in advance, jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Apr 3 19:52:57 1998 From: ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (lawrence mccrea) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 13:52:57 -0600 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Chicago Message-ID: <161227037435.23782.14215529170037974301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to announce the following University of Chicago summer course offering: Introductory Sanskrit 1,2,3 (South Asian Languages and Civilizations 250, 251, 252). 9:00am-1:00pm, MWF (June 22-August 28). Instructor: L. McCrea, Lecturer, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations. This course sequence fulfills the Common Core language requirement. The first half of the course sequence is spent mastering the reading and writing of Devanagari script and studying the grammar of the classical Sanskrit language. The remainder of the course sequence is devoted to close analytical reading of simple Sanskrit texts, which are used to reinforce the grammatical study done in the first half of the course. The aim is to bring students to the point where they are comfortably able, with the help of a dictionary, to read simple, narrative Sanskrit. Those interested in taking the course should contact: The University of Chicago Graham School of General Studies Summer Session Office 5835 Kimbark Avenue Chicago, IL 60637 (773) 702-6033 Email: uc-summer at uchicago.edu From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Apr 3 22:12:24 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 14:12:24 -0800 Subject: arma-, armaka 'ruined site' Message-ID: <161227037440.23782.1931670232286314142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:00 PM 4/2/98 -800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Btw, do you know what eventually happened to the Inca civilization? The Incas were, in a sense, the Andean equivalent to the Aztecs in Mesoamerica. They were relative latecomers who built an enormous empire. They were also conquered by the Spanish, who destroyed some of their buildings, especially in Cuzco, the Inca Capital. One of the most impressive of Inca cities, Macchu Picchu, which sits high on a mountain, was never discovered by the conquerors, and was discovered only in the 20th century. The language spoken by the Incas, Quechua, is still spoken today by many people in the Andean region, in modern-day Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, and, I believe, Ecuador. In a country like Peru there is a very high percentage of monolingual speakers of Quechua, and many others who are bilingual (Quechua-Spanish). Although Spanish is the official language, it never fully displaced Quechua, probably because of the rugged mountaineous terrain. Mexico and Peru would become the two foci for the spread of Spanish language and (Spanish/European) culture. In Mexico City and Lima the first two European-style universities of the Americas were established in 1551. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Apr 3 22:17:03 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 14:17:03 -0800 Subject: Humans, animals and plants Message-ID: <161227037442.23782.5346240064551178747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:19 PM 4/3/98 -0500, Alok Kumar wrote: >I am interested in knowing ancient views (Vedic and Upanishads period) on >1. Status of women with respect to men in family and society. In >Hindu religion, goddesses are worshiped, indicating an influential status >for females. Were they also equal in status for their roles in family and >society. You should take a look at Stephanie W. Jamison's book "Sacrificed Wife, Sacrificer's Wife." New York: Oxford University press, 1996. Read the introduction. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Fri Apr 3 21:19:22 1998 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 16:19:22 -0500 Subject: Humans, animals and plants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037437.23782.12017267415085161266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in knowing ancient views (Vedic and Upanishads period) on the following two topics: 1. Status of women with respect to men in family and society. In Hindu religion, goddesses are worshiped, indicating an influential status for females. Were they also equal in status for their roles in family and society. 2. Relationship of humans, animals, and plants. As I understand, animals, humans and plants were considered a part of prakriti. I am interested in their relationship and their status with respect to each other, in any. Please share your thoughts and article/book on the topic. Alok Kumar Department of Physics State University of New York Oswego, NY 13126. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 3 12:08:32 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 17:08:32 +0500 Subject: information solicited Message-ID: <161227037415.23782.578413459361804230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks. I was looking for the details of the first edition and one of the list members has supplied that to me. Best regards, Bh.K. At 10:29 02/04/98 +0100, you wrote: >On 2 Apr 98 at 9:20, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: > >> I shall be grateful if any member on the list can help me with the >> details of the publisher of the following title: >> >> Watt, George, A. 1889-96. A Dictionary of Economic Products of >> India, 6 vols. Calcutta. > >George Watt. A Dictionary of the Economic Products of India. In Six >Volumes. First published 1889. Second reprint 1972: Published by >Mrs. Rani Kapoor, Cosmo Publications, 10178 Library Road, Delhi-6. > >All the best, >Roland Steiner > > >-- >Dr. Roland Steiner >Fachgebiet Indologie, FB 11 der Philipps-Universitaet >Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6 >D-35032 Marburg (Briefanschrift / for letters) >D-35039 Marburg (Paketanschrift / for parcels) >Germany >Tel.: +49-6421-282184; Fax: +49-6421-284995 >email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Fri Apr 3 17:38:05 1998 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 19:38:05 +0200 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037427.23782.2697640589888629031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of Indology group In the process of my actual work about the ritual worship of the nine planetary deities referred to as 'navagraha', I came across several 'white spots' in the material I have collected till now. I mainly focussed on the worship/ ritual propitiation of one or all of the grahas, as I saw it in Shaiva temples of Tamil Nadu: Aims and contexts of the graha worship, the ritual guidelines followed by the priests (including mantras, stotras, namavalis and indications for different types of rituals adressing the grahas), ikonographical appearance of the grahas, backgrounds of worship given by priests and devotees, historical data on the temples. Beside temples that are well known and selected by devotees for the worship of all the grahas, there exist elsewhere circles of nine different temples each one especially associated with one of the grahas (as it is the case for nine temples situated around Kumbakonam). The grahas may be depicted as a collection of their respective nine murtis arranged on one and the same platform or one or the other of the planetary deities is given its own shrine within the temple compound. I am very clear about the very fact of a close relation between astrology and navagraha worship, a detailed study of the former is not part of my investigation, wherease I want to stress the later aspect. a) TEXTUAL REFERENCES: In this context I need help concerning textual references: [to point it out very clearly: I am not looking for jyotis.a sources] Who knows of passages out of the Veda Samhitas, which adress the navagraha (being at that time only seven) as deities? Who can provide me with references to graha worship given in the puranas? In the agamic canons? Are there early S_ilpa texts that describe ikonographical details and material to be used for navagraha murtis? - One question I wish to answer: how far can we find references to a kind of worship of navagraha in the ancient textual sources as it is practiced nowadays? Do these references allow to say something on the beginning of a tradition where the planetary deities are referred to as (secondary) deities? Any hints are welcome. 2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: Who can provide me with information on further temples especially connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares (which one?!), ... - it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomen. Thank your for your time and cooperation yours Marianna From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Fri Apr 3 17:09:00 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 20:09:00 +0300 Subject: Dice Message-ID: <161227037464.23782.5994510557517796109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am grateful to Rolf Heiner Koch who was the only one to aswer my question about the gambling dice in the PGW culture: > Can you give me a reference to any source containing a picture or >>a good description of the dice typical of the PGW culture? I think the dice mentioned in the answer are typical both for IVC and Classical Indian culture (oblong, quadrangle in section). But I meant the dice specific for PGW culture: biconical, narrowing towards the ends. The one that I saw many years ago (demonstrated by Prof. B.B.Lal) had been found at Noh. After that I saw in archaeological reports one or two mentions of biconical dice found at PGW sites, but no photo, drawing or a good description. Mayby somebody knows the address of Prof. B.B.Lal? I sent a letter for him to the Archeological Survey of India, but got no answer. Thanks in advance. Yaroslav Vassilkov From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 3 15:59:40 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 20:59:40 +0500 Subject: The Origins of OM or Omkar - A Hypothesis Message-ID: <161227037422.23782.3569487623718622197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:20 AM 4/3/98 EST, you wrote: >Dear Sarma Garu, > >> yazchandasAmRSabhO vizvarUpaH >> chandObhyO~dhyamRtAthsaMbabhUva >> samEndrO mEdhayA spRNOtu >> amRtasya dEva dhAraNO bhUyAsaM >> zarIraM mE vicarSaNam >> jihvA mE madhumattamA >> karNAbhyAM bhUrivizruvam >> brahmaNaH kOzOsi mEdhayA pihitaH >> Zrutam mE gOpAya. taittirIyOpaniSad 1-7 > >> Om is called the BULL (best) of the mantrAs. > >All the books translate 'chandasAm' and 'chandobhyo' as Vedas or mantras. Any >one looked into the aspect that Om is the bull among the metres? because >chandas also means metre. If so, how exactly? > >Regards >Bhadraiah Mallampalli > > May be the meaning metre for 'chandas' came much later. regards, sarma. From amnev at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 4 13:53:47 1998 From: amnev at HOTMAIL.COM (Amos Nevo) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 05:53:47 -0800 Subject: Holidays Greetings Message-ID: <161227037455.23782.11422544057760027899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> amnev at hotmail.com sent you an enhanced E-mail message using E-greetings(r) Pix(tm) digital postcards. You may have to scroll down to the bottom of the E-mail message to see your attached personal greeting. You can also pick-up your message at your unique and private Web address (URL): http://www.greetst.com/e-products/cgi/view/YonMBWzj Your E-greeting will be safely stored there for two weeks. --- If you still need help, please visit http://www.greetst.com/e-products and click on "Help & Info". While you're there, feel free to check out the great selection of E-greetings to enhance *your* E-mail! E-greetings(r) is a registered trademark of Greet Street -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cardajxn.gif Type: image/gif Size: 49200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Apr 4 08:13:33 1998 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 09:13:33 +0100 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities In-Reply-To: <35251E7D.4D79DFE2@theol.unibe.ch> Message-ID: <161227037451.23782.9647771118627181994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tradition says that the first Navagraha temple is in Gauhati. John >2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: >Who can provide me with information on further temples especially >connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, >there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares >(which one?!), ... >- it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the >grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by >devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomen. > >Thank your for your time and cooperation > >yours > >Marianna From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Sat Apr 4 14:15:12 1998 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 09:15:12 -0500 Subject: adress needed In-Reply-To: <3526333D.6668983D@theol.unibe.ch> Message-ID: <161227037457.23782.4583995361011460599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rana P. B. Singh No. B29/12A Lanka Varanasi, UP 221005 India On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Marianna Kropf wrote: > Dear members of INDOLOGY LIST > > Can anybody provide me with the adress/ phone/ fax - maybe even e-mail > account - of Prof. Rana P. B. Singh in Benares (he is - beside many > other topics - a great scholar in sacred geography and pilgrimage > studies) - thank you! > > Marianna > From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Apr 4 15:56:20 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 10:56:20 -0500 Subject: Carvakas and incest Message-ID: <161227037462.23782.10229926701926158622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >(I am not particularly interested in the Carvakas per se -- but rather in >the incest part of the whole thing.) This just shows the extent to which ad hominem attacks were resorted in those days too. In what way his being a product of incest would be of interest to anyone? Could Mr. Silk prove that he is not product of incest himself? From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Apr 4 09:46:04 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 11:46:04 +0200 Subject: The horse argument, part 1 In-Reply-To: <199804021646.SAA12857@online.no> Message-ID: <161227037444.23782.12367281102547189850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >One of my old Classics teachers said exactly the same thing: "They come to >the battle on their chariots as if they were riding taxis." His conclusion >was that Homer knew about chariots but that he had not seen them used in >battle. The Romans used chariots too, but only for racing. Old instruments >of war sometimes end up as pure sports articles. Today, we throw spears and >shoot the bow at the Olympics, but - pace Rambo - both weapons keep a low >profile in today's warfare. >Lars Martin Fosse Dear Lars, I agree. But the reciprocity is not sure and the "disk throwing" shows that some parts of the "agOn" have perhaps a religious origin. The war-chariot was perhaps a "taxi de la Marne" but we can't definitely exclude that it was nothing in epics but the ICON of a God-like status. Many passages of Iliad or of Mahabharata are very difficult to understand as a real-life fight and the long long travel of Arjuna, running against the sunset, seems very far from an actual battlefield. Even being unable to PROVE anything, I believe that the later use of the chariot in a warfare context is derived from an early use limited to processions and races, the Gods being the first owners of light and fast chariots, able to fly over the world. And, even later, the chariots, drastically submitted to the landscape, were probably more signs of power (like banners and eagles) than powerful tactical weapons. As you remark with accuracy, the Romans, the better war-experts of their time, never used it, except in races and ... triumphs. The actual use of pesant wagons to carry food and various supplies is evidently not excluded. Regards, Dominique PS: to other mailers: About the difficult words aryaH and asuraH and the apparent contradictions in their usage, many pages was written by many reputed scholars. Despite some good tracks, there is not (to my knoledge) any ultimate answer. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Sat Apr 4 10:05:02 1998 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 13:05:02 +0300 Subject: Dice Message-ID: <161227037474.23782.6496751175184233418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his letter of 5.04.98 R.H.Koch wrote: At 11:46 04.04.98 +0200, you wrote: >>One of my old Classics teachers said exactly the same thing: "They come to >>the battle on their chariots as if they were riding taxis." His conclusion >>was that Homer knew about chariots but that he had not seen them used in >>battle. The Romans used chariots too, but only for racing. Old instruments >>of war sometimes end up as pure sports articles. Today, we throw spears and >>shoot the bow at the Olympics, but - pace Rambo - both weapons keep a low >>profile in today's warfare. >>Lars Martin Fosse > >Dear Lars, > I agree. But the reciprocity is not sure and the "disk throwing" >shows that some parts of the "agOn" have perhaps a religious origin. > The war-chariot was perhaps a "taxi de la Marne" but we can't >definitely exclude that it was nothing in epics but the ICON of a God-like >status. Many passages of Iliad or of Mahabharata are very difficult to >understand as a real-life fight and the long long travel of Arjuna, running >against the sunset, seems very far from an actual battlefield. > Even being unable to PROVE anything, I believe that the later use >of the chariot in a warfare context is derived from an early use limited to >processions and races, the Gods being the first owners of light and fast >chariots, able to fly over the world. And, even later, the chariots, >drastically submitted to the landscape, were probably more signs of power >(like banners and eagles) than powerful tactical weapons. As you remark >with accuracy, the Romans, the better war-experts of their time, never used >it, except in races and ... triumphs. This reminds me of a description of battle wagons in actual use. Please take a look at Xenofon's description of the Great King's army on the march ( Anabasis, Book I,7). Here wagons with sharp knives at the end of the axes and under the wagon are used in front of the army, evidently a practical weapon, but a weapon that was dependent upon flat ground. Caesar gives a description of Celtic chariot warriors in his book on Britain. They way they behave suggest the kind of man to man fighting that is often described in the Mbh. War was both a ritual and a sport, and chariots probably disappeared for various reasons, lack of tactical efficiency being one of them. Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Sat Apr 4 13:18:53 1998 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:18:53 +0200 Subject: adress needed Message-ID: <161227037449.23782.14254395265094268603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of INDOLOGY LIST Can anybody provide me with the adress/ phone/ fax - maybe even e-mail account - of Prof. Rana P. B. Singh in Benares (he is - beside many other topics - a great scholar in sacred geography and pilgrimage studies) - thank you! Marianna From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 5 03:43:40 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 19:43:40 -0800 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037469.23782.15714276761151554563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marianna Kopf writes: >2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: >Who can provide me with information on further temples especially >connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, >there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares >(which one?!), ... In Andhra, as has already been pointed out, there are many temples which have a small mandapam where the 9 planets are enshrined with Surya in the middle...This arrangement can be seen clearly ( among the temples in the USA with which I'm familiar) in the Siva Vishnu Temple, Lanham in the greater Washington DC area. In addition, there is a Rahu temple somewhere near KAlahasti, Saturn worship in Mandapalli(East Godavari dist) and a Sun temple in Arasavilli(Srikakulam dist)... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Apr 4 16:20:10 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 21:20:10 +0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037460.23782.10715892801088663889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:13 AM 4/4/98 +0100, you wrote: >Tradition says that the first Navagraha temple is in Gauhati. >John > >>2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: >>Who can provide me with information on further temples especially >>connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, >>there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares >>(which one?!), ... >>- it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the >>grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by >>devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomen. >> >>Thank your for your time and cooperation >> >>yours >> >>Marianna > > In quite a good number of temples in Andhra Pradesh there is a mandapam (platform) or a small shrine in which idols of all the nine grahas are arranged in a centered square with sun as the center as shown in the figure. * * * * * * * * * In addition to this there is a famous temple in Mandapalli devoted to zanaiscara (saturn) where people perform abhiSEka with sesame oil to propitiate him. regards, sarma. From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Apr 4 17:34:18 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (anil k gupta) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 23:04:18 +0530 Subject: Book Review Panel Message-ID: <161227037466.23782.18097843965664019486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >_International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Book Review Panel > >I would be willing to accept occasional assignments to review books for >_International Journal of Hindu Studies_. > > >Name: prof Anil K Gupta > > >Mailing address: > Indian Institute of management vastrapur ahmedabadf 380015 india > > > >Tel nos: Work 91 79 407241 ext 4927 office ext 5315 resid: > Home: > > >Fax no: 91 79 6427896 > > >Email: anilkgupta1 at hotmail.com > > >Present position, Institutional affiliation (if any): >president, SRISTI and Editor honey bee and professor IIMA > > >Academic discipline (e.g., Religion, Anthropology): > >socio-ecology, economics, >management >Subject interest (e.g., folklore, women): > >indgenous knowledge systems, folk lore, ecological ethics, social networks folk tales etc., > > > >Geographical area of interest (e.g., India, Nepal) > >india > >Specialist research (e.g., Kashmir Saivite theory of aesthetics) > > >systems of generosity, ecological ethics > > >Cite one recent title you have published (publisher and date): > > Honey bee network, Development 1997, last issue ( exact vol number will be sent soon, Sustainbale natural resource management, apdc 1995 > > >Signature: anil k gupta > > >Date: april 4 1998 > >======================================================================== > From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Sun Apr 5 14:26:37 1998 From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 07:26:37 -0700 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities In-Reply-To: <19980405034340.679.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227037478.23782.10039947104046827671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, S Krishna wrote: > Marianna Kopf writes: > >2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: > >Who can provide me with information on further temples especially > >connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, > >there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares > >(which one?!), ... > > > In Andhra, as has already been pointed out, there are many temples > which have a small mandapam where the 9 planets are enshrined with Surya > in the middle...This arrangement can be seen clearly ( among the > temples in the USA with which I'm familiar) in the Siva Vishnu Temple, > Lanham in the greater Washington DC area. > > In addition, there is a Rahu temple somewhere near KAlahasti, > Saturn worship in Mandapalli(East Godavari dist) and a Sun temple in > Arasavilli(Srikakulam dist)... > > Regards, > Krishna There is also a big Sheni temple in Pawagada (Anantapur D.) [or perhaps that is in Karnataka: but in any case it is VERY near the modern border] Peter Claus From roheko at MSN.COM Sun Apr 5 05:54:49 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 07:54:49 +0200 Subject: Dice Message-ID: <161227037472.23782.16219053564228468581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> IVC and PGW is not understandable Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Yaroslav V. Vassilkov An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Samstag, 4. April 1998 18:13 Betreff: Dice >I am grateful to Rolf Heiner Koch who was the only one to aswer my question >about the gambling dice in the PGW culture: > > >- My question was: > >>> Can you give me a reference to any source >containing a picture or >>>a good description of the dice typical of the PGW >culture? > > I think the dice mentioned in the answer are typical both for >IVC and Classical Indian culture (oblong, quadrangle in section). >But I meant the dice specific for PGW culture: biconical, narrowing >towards the ends. The one that I saw many years ago (demonstrated by >Prof. B.B.Lal) had been found at Noh. After that I saw in archaeological >reports one or two mentions of biconical dice found at PGW sites, but no >photo, drawing or a good description. > Mayby somebody knows the address of Prof. B.B.Lal? I sent a letter >for him to the Archeological Survey of India, but got no answer. > Thanks in advance. > Yaroslav Vassilkov > From Vaidix at AOL.COM Sun Apr 5 16:10:30 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 12:10:30 -0400 Subject: some remarks Message-ID: <161227037487.23782.6371015184020885853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members >> excellent note after a long time shorn of extremist notions, lucid and >> likeable >> anil > >Dear Indologists, > > Despite my intention don't to touch my keyboard in dubious debates, > >I can't restrain to write few words ;) > > > >1) can we stop to playing with words ? > > > >Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: "can not grasp and remember simple words like > >"Scheduled castes" of Indian society, and continue to use the incorrect > >"untouchables" (a word banished from official Indian media long ago)" > > 1) I suppose English and American peoples are better judges about >< >the use of their own mother tongue ;) > > 2) Changing names don't change the reality. I find ridiculous the > >new tendancy of "banishing words". In France, it's today incorrect to say > >"aveugle" (blind) or "sourd" (deaf), they must be replaced by "non-voyant" > >(not seeing) and "mal-entendant" (badly hearing): what is changing for > >them? I agree with a french humorist who suggested to replace "con" > >(bloody) by "mal-comprenant" (badly undrstanding). I'm afraid that > >rejecting "untouchables" is nothing but a poor essay to close the eyes over > >a real problem; "scheduled castes" seems to me an insulting euphemism and, > >speaking French, I'll continue to use the words "intouchables" or "parias". > > > >George Thompson wrote: "we're supposed to be talking about a *migration > >theory*. If you keep on insisting on an *invasion theory*, where there is > >none ..." > > I don't understand clearly the difference between the two words. > >Was the coming of Europeans in East America a migration or an invasion? Was > >the coming of East Americans in West America a migration or an invasion? > > From the American point of view they were peaceful farmers going > >toward free lands, undoubtly a migration. Alas, Amerindians knew well the > >land was not "free", the peaceful farmers were armed with guns and > >travelling with a powerful army, undoubtly an invasion (some > >ill-intentioned people say a genocid)! > > Once again, debating about words is not debating about reality but > >about ideological point of view ;) > > > >2) colonialist scholars ? > > > > I, personnally, reject firmly any accusation of colonialism or > >neo-colonialism. I know perfectly that India was colonized by England, a > >big part of Africa by France, Greece and Gaul by Roma, &c. I know perfectly > >that few scholars gave an ideological support to all conquests and > >slaveries, eurindianist Germans to the nazi power, Russian biologists to > >the stalinian one, &c. But they were very few! > > In a large majority, scholars are honest and honourable* peoples, > >rarely supporting the politic of their government, rarely involved in > >military or economical war. To reject the point of view of westerner > >scholars with an accusation of colonialism is not only insulting, but also > >stupid. > > When I consider the Indian civilization as an Eurindian one, that's > >based on many serious and published studies. I have nothing to do with the > >eventual "greatness" of any land! I'm studying them but I don't like > >Eurindians nor their ideology. They were war fans and the extension of > >Eurindian languages all over the world shows perfectly they had no problems > >in destroying civilizations. It's true that some of them, by a later > >evolution, attained a wonderful state of spiritual development, but just > >few of them (I know only Greece and India in this way). I suppose (just my > >religious opinion: no debate, please) that other ones were "perverted" in > >their evolution by bellicist monotheistic ideologies ("Dieu reconnaitra les > >siens", "Gott mit uns", "the Holy Bible in each GI's pocket", &c.).> > > I hope to be a religious, peaceful and honnest man, but I'm not > >sure that all my pitaras were good guys and I don't intend to defend them > >blindly. Hence, I don't intend to be judged for their faults and, in the > >actual case, for the English conquest of India! ... > > > > Regards, > >Dominique > > > >* not in Antonius' sense ;) > > > > > > Brilliantly misplaced emotions of Prof Thillaud!! I am no authority in any language including sanskrit or even my own mother tongue Telugu. I have no business to judge any language. I am sorry I did not explain myself clearly. My mention of India banishing the use of the word 'untouchables' is a parallel to the banishing of the 'N' word for African Americans. Let any newspaer use that word today, and its offices will be sued for billions of dollars. (I agree that the use of the word 'banish' is not scholarly. It was not 'banish', the right word must be 'politicaly incorrect'.). India has its right to discard words that do not suit its culture. We will mend ours and request others' language if necessary. Prof Anil, do you still see 'extremism' in my words? Regards, Bhadraiah Mallampalli From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Apr 5 15:02:36 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 17:02:36 +0200 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037481.23782.12731823189739728463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >> In Andhra, as has already been pointed out, there are many temples >> which have a small mandapam where the 9 planets are enshrined with Surya >> in the middle...This arrangement can be seen clearly ( among the >> temples in the USA with which I'm familiar) in the Siva Vishnu Temple, >> Lanham in the greater Washington DC area. >> >> In addition, there is a Rahu temple somewhere near KAlahasti, >> Saturn worship in Mandapalli(East Godavari dist) and a Sun temple in >> Arasavilli(Srikakulam dist)... >> >> Regards, >> Krishna > > >There is also a big Sheni temple in Pawagada (Anantapur D.) [or perhaps >that is in Karnataka: but in any case it is VERY near the modern border] > As far as I remember, there is also a platform for worship of the grahas close to the temple of Venkateshvara at Tirupati. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Apr 5 11:46:37 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (anil k gupta) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 17:16:37 +0530 Subject: some remarks Message-ID: <161227037476.23782.17962840463422478181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> excellent note after a long time shorn of extremist notions, lucid and likeable anil -----Original Message----- From: Dominique.Thillaud To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 3:13 PM Subject: some remarks >Dear Indologists, > Despite my intention don't to touch my keyboard in dubious debates, >I can't restrain to write few words ;) > >1) can we stop to playing with words ? > >Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: "can not grasp and remember simple words like >"Scheduled castes" of Indian society, and continue to use the incorrect >"untouchables" (a word banished from official Indian media long ago)" > 1) I suppose English and American peoples are better judges about >the use of their own mother tongue ;) > 2) Changing names don't change the reality. I find ridiculous the >new tendancy of "banishing words". In France, it's today incorrect to say >"aveugle" (blind) or "sourd" (deaf), they must be replaced by "non-voyant" >(not seeing) and "mal-entendant" (badly hearing): what is changing for >them? I agree with a french humorist who suggested to replace "con" >(bloody) by "mal-comprenant" (badly undrstanding). I'm afraid that >rejecting "untouchables" is nothing but a poor essay to close the eyes over >a real problem; "scheduled castes" seems to me an insulting euphemism and, >speaking French, I'll continue to use the words "intouchables" or "parias". > >George Thompson wrote: "we're supposed to be talking about a *migration >theory*. If you keep on insisting on an *invasion theory*, where there is >none ..." > I don't understand clearly the difference between the two words. >Was the coming of Europeans in East America a migration or an invasion? Was >the coming of East Americans in West America a migration or an invasion? > From the American point of view they were peaceful farmers going >toward free lands, undoubtly a migration. Alas, Amerindians knew well the >land was not "free", the peaceful farmers were armed with guns and >travelling with a powerful army, undoubtly an invasion (some >ill-intentioned people say a genocid)! > Once again, debating about words is not debating about reality but >about ideological point of view ;) > >2) colonialist scholars ? > > I, personnally, reject firmly any accusation of colonialism or >neo-colonialism. I know perfectly that India was colonized by England, a >big part of Africa by France, Greece and Gaul by Roma, &c. I know perfectly >that few scholars gave an ideological support to all conquests and >slaveries, eurindianist Germans to the nazi power, Russian biologists to >the stalinian one, &c. But they were very few! > In a large majority, scholars are honest and honourable* peoples, >rarely supporting the politic of their government, rarely involved in >military or economical war. To reject the point of view of westerner >scholars with an accusation of colonialism is not only insulting, but also >stupid. > When I consider the Indian civilization as an Eurindian one, that's >based on many serious and published studies. I have nothing to do with the >eventual "greatness" of any land! I'm studying them but I don't like >Eurindians nor their ideology. They were war fans and the extension of >Eurindian languages all over the world shows perfectly they had no problems >in destroying civilizations. It's true that some of them, by a later >evolution, attained a wonderful state of spiritual development, but just >few of them (I know only Greece and India in this way). I suppose (just my >religious opinion: no debate, please) that other ones were "perverted" in >their evolution by bellicist monotheistic ideologies ("Dieu reconnaitra les >siens", "Gott mit uns", "the Holy Bible in each GI's pocket", &c.). > I hope to be a religious, peaceful and honnest man, but I'm not >sure that all my pitaras were good guys and I don't intend to defend them >blindly. Hence, I don't intend to be judged for their faults and, in the >actual case, for the English conquest of India! ... > > Regards, >Dominique > >* not in Antonius' sense ;) > > > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Sun Apr 5 15:45:34 1998 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 17:45:34 +0200 Subject: Bhaa.sya on Graha names Message-ID: <161227037484.23782.13926753237399211243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Sharma schrieb: > > Are there any traditional Bhaa.sya-s on the 108 names > of each of the nine planets? If so, does anyone have > references for available editions? Thank you. I have a booklet in Hindi/ Skr. which gives a 108 namavali in Skr. for each of the nine planets - by now I didn't check for the sources of these name prayers. If you should have found out - please let me know! The booklet is published by Randhir Prakashan in Hardwar/U.P. in 1995: Umesh Puri 'Gyaneshvar' [Autor] Navagraha upasanaa aur gahadosha ke upay. Hope this will help you Marianna From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Sun Apr 5 17:29:12 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 18:29:12 +0100 Subject: 1) arma and 2) innateness of knowledge In-Reply-To: <199804041129.NAA29430@online.no> Message-ID: <161227037490.23782.14825249767679935403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There have been a few postings recently mentioning the use of arma in the sense of a ruined settlement. Mayrhofer (EWA, s.v. arma-), following K. T. Schmidt (Studien zum indogermanischen Wortschatz, pp.290ff), opts rather for the meaning `Brunnen'. There have also been a few postings lately about the notion that knowledge is innate. Tantras of the "Saiva Siddhaanta teach that omniscience is the innate nature of the soul. Thus in the Kira.natantra, replying to a question about whether impurity/ignorance (mala) is a property (dharma) of the soul, \'Siva teaches (2:25cd): ekasmin vyajyate j~naanam anyasmi.ms tat tirohitam|| Saiddhaantikas distinguish their position on this point from three groups of \'Saivas of the Atimaarga: the (Paa~ncaarthika-)Paa"supatas, the Kaalaamukhas and the Kaapaalikas, according to whom God's qualities (including omniscience) are attained respectively by sa.mkraanti, utpatti, and aave"sa. Dominic Goodall. From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Mon Apr 6 01:50:07 1998 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 21:50:07 -0400 Subject: some remarks Message-ID: <161227037493.23782.3957206268638980331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you Professor Gupta of Indiana University? I am Dr. George Cronk, Chair of the Dept. of Philosophy & Religion, at Bergen Community College in New Jersey. We are scheduled to interview Byeong D. Lee on May 4 for a teaching position in Philosophy here. Dr. Lee was your student, right? Just thought I'd say hello. -----Original Message----- From: anil k gupta To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 8:59 AM Subject: Re: some remarks >excellent note after a long time shorn of extremist notions, lucid and >likeable > >anil > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dominique.Thillaud >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 3:13 PM >Subject: some remarks > > >>Dear Indologists, >> Despite my intention don't to touch my keyboard in dubious debates, >>I can't restrain to write few words ;) >> >>1) can we stop to playing with words ? >> >>Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: "can not grasp and remember simple words like >>"Scheduled castes" of Indian society, and continue to use the incorrect >>"untouchables" (a word banished from official Indian media long ago)" >> 1) I suppose English and American peoples are better judges about >>the use of their own mother tongue ;) >> 2) Changing names don't change the reality. I find ridiculous the >>new tendancy of "banishing words". In France, it's today incorrect to say >>"aveugle" (blind) or "sourd" (deaf), they must be replaced by "non-voyant" >>(not seeing) and "mal-entendant" (badly hearing): what is changing for >>them? I agree with a french humorist who suggested to replace "con" >>(bloody) by "mal-comprenant" (badly undrstanding). I'm afraid that >>rejecting "untouchables" is nothing but a poor essay to close the eyes over >>a real problem; "scheduled castes" seems to me an insulting euphemism and, >>speaking French, I'll continue to use the words "intouchables" or "parias". >> >>George Thompson wrote: "we're supposed to be talking about a *migration >>theory*. If you keep on insisting on an *invasion theory*, where there is >>none ..." >> I don't understand clearly the difference between the two words. >>Was the coming of Europeans in East America a migration or an invasion? Was >>the coming of East Americans in West America a migration or an invasion? >> From the American point of view they were peaceful farmers going >>toward free lands, undoubtly a migration. Alas, Amerindians knew well the >>land was not "free", the peaceful farmers were armed with guns and >>travelling with a powerful army, undoubtly an invasion (some >>ill-intentioned people say a genocid)! >> Once again, debating about words is not debating about reality but >>about ideological point of view ;) >> >>2) colonialist scholars ? >> >> I, personnally, reject firmly any accusation of colonialism or >>neo-colonialism. I know perfectly that India was colonized by England, a >>big part of Africa by France, Greece and Gaul by Roma, &c. I know perfectly >>that few scholars gave an ideological support to all conquests and >>slaveries, eurindianist Germans to the nazi power, Russian biologists to >>the stalinian one, &c. But they were very few! >> In a large majority, scholars are honest and honourable* peoples, >>rarely supporting the politic of their government, rarely involved in >>military or economical war. To reject the point of view of westerner >>scholars with an accusation of colonialism is not only insulting, but also >>stupid. >> When I consider the Indian civilization as an Eurindian one, that's >>based on many serious and published studies. I have nothing to do with the >>eventual "greatness" of any land! I'm studying them but I don't like >>Eurindians nor their ideology. They were war fans and the extension of >>Eurindian languages all over the world shows perfectly they had no problems >>in destroying civilizations. It's true that some of them, by a later >>evolution, attained a wonderful state of spiritual development, but just >>few of them (I know only Greece and India in this way). I suppose (just my >>religious opinion: no debate, please) that other ones were "perverted" in >>their evolution by bellicist monotheistic ideologies ("Dieu reconnaitra les >>siens", "Gott mit uns", "the Holy Bible in each GI's pocket", &c.). >> I hope to be a religious, peaceful and honnest man, but I'm not >>sure that all my pitaras were good guys and I don't intend to defend them >>blindly. Hence, I don't intend to be judged for their faults and, in the >>actual case, for the English conquest of India! ... >> >> Regards, >>Dominique >> >>* not in Antonius' sense ;) >> >> >> >>Dominique THILLAUD >>Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France >> From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Apr 6 03:22:04 1998 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 22:22:04 -0500 Subject: wrong person Message-ID: <161227037499.23782.6359329314423522302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear professor Cronk: unfortunately there has been a mix up of persons with the same name. The Prof. Anil Gupta of Indiana University is not identical with the one on the indology list. The philosopher's e-mail address is: agupta at indiana.edu Best, Edeltraud Harzer Clear Asian Studies UT at Austin >Are you Professor Gupta of Indiana University? I am Dr. George Cronk, Chair >of the Dept. of Philosophy & Religion, at Bergen Community College in New >Jersey. We are scheduled to interview Byeong D. Lee on May 4 for a teaching >position in Philosophy here. Dr. Lee was your student, right? > >Just thought I'd say hello. > From sudheerbirodkar at YAHOO.COM Mon Apr 6 09:11:28 1998 From: sudheerbirodkar at YAHOO.COM (sudheer birodkar) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 02:11:28 -0700 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037504.23782.10572526821298786711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Is there any other ancient literature outside of >India that mentions AryAs? > Bhadraiah Mallampalli Dear List Members, Here is one inscription in ancient Pehlavi found at Behuistan (or Naqsh-i-Rustam?) in Iran which dates to the 4th century B.C.E. and is ascribed to the Achameanian (Hakkamanishiya) Emperor Daryush or Drayavayush (Darius in Greek): "Adam Daryavayush, KshAyatiya VAzraka, KshAyatiya KshAyatiyanAm, PArshya, PArshya Puthra, Arya Arya Chithra." Loosely rendered in Sanskrit it could read: "Aham Daryavayush, Kshatriya VirAta, KshatrAnAm Kshtra, PArshya, PArshya Putra, Arya Arya Vamsa." In English it would read: "I am Darius, The Great King, King of Kings, Am a Persian, of Persian Descent An Aryan or Aryan Lineage." This is one actual description of a king of himself as an Aryan. Sudheer Birodkar _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Vaidix at AOL.COM Mon Apr 6 08:51:30 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 04:51:30 -0400 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037501.23782.6028163319031216969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members After some thought I wanted to cook up other possibilities re: the word AryA in RGVeda, instead of taking one position that we all know for ages. AryA was the preferred tribe, but remarks were found in which AryAs were also hated. To say 'Vedic Aryans' is like saying 'Scientific Americans'. Afterall everybody knows science now, including India which missed Industrial revolution but caught up in just 50 years despite undermanagement. US is technology leader because it leads in number of patents issued/pending. Veda may be the 'in thing' in ancient days like Java is today. I can not imagine that Aryans monopolized this knowledge and left all other tribes living at that time behind them despite Vivekananda. A literature as vast as hundreds of thousands words of poetry and prose (not including other ancillary literature which is at least 10 times the size of Vedas) can not be a small task. Such a vast knowledge can not be handled safely by just one tribe. If any other tribe massacres them it is all lost. A number of tribes fighting among themselves occassionally, were maintaining it. So AryAs and dAsyus, dAsAs (are dAsAs different from dAsyus?), possibly many other tribes who hated both of them, and even asurAs all had the Vedic knowledge. Even purANAs say rAvaNA was a Vedic scholar. AryAs may be leaders like US. Later some 'secular' civilization like classical Hindus had compiled all that literature belonging to opposing tribes and preserved the different views. If we accept the historical validity of AryAs then we must also assume responsibility to identify other tribes mentioned in RGVeda. Ignoring other tribes is pick and choose interpretation. I have decided to work on the possibility that AryAs &c are not any historical tribe at all, but just a part of Vedic symbolism. Another possibility is that AryAs &c may be real historic people, but authors of Veda used the names of some existing tribes to compose their theology. Is there any other ancient literature outside of India that mentions AryAs? Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP Mon Apr 6 03:18:21 1998 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 12:18:21 +0900 Subject: [Ann] Web release of the Japanese Indology & Buddhology Studies DB Message-ID: <161227037496.23782.13992730188017022808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please forward this message to anybody who may be interested... [I personally posted this message to Buudha-L and Indology list. Please forgive me if you receive it more than once.] =============== Once again, I am very pleased to be able to announce that a HUGE database of Japanese Indological and Buddhological studies has been released in the Internet. The database, named "Indian and Buddhist Studies Treatise Database" or "INBUDS", is an ongoing project of the Database Center of the Japanese Association of Indian and Buddhist Studies, containing data of some 17000 and more studies published in more than 150 Japanese scholarly journals (mainly from 1950s onward, but some of them from 1920s or even earlier [?] onward). Each record includes full bibliographical data, plus very comprehensive keywords, which will facilitate the researches. The url is: http://www.kt.rim.or.jp/~inbuds/ All the data files can be downloaded and used by every user. There is also an experimental online search facility (very fast and useful!). The site and the data are in Japanese (Shift-JIS encoding). The "gaiji" are represented by special SGML entities corresponding to Morohashi Dictionary and Konjaku-mojikyoo kanji numbers. The diacritical marks are represented in TeX style. This database is growing everyday -- so there will be additions at a regular interval. I hope that this release will be useful and helpful for many Indology and Buddhology scholars and researchers of the world. ====== Disclaimer: Please note that I am not a member of the Database Center of the JAIBS. So this is not an "official announce". I only have friends who are working on this project. ======= Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 6 20:04:03 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 13:04:03 -0700 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037511.23782.7624422914059192941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But why we have to read this? Why you tell the >whole world your thougths? Do you not have a >diary? !!!! Sehr schoen! Bhadraiah is an overbearing bore. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 6 21:24:01 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 14:24:01 -0700 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037515.23782.3829637833924071507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: my earlier response on this thread Apologies for hurt feelings, and for sending to the list something that was intended to be private email. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Apr 6 19:24:56 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 15:24:56 -0400 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Chicago Message-ID: <161227037509.23782.5600346537824710423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to forward the following announcement (on summer courses on Sanskrit) to your listserv or mailing list. For any questions or comments, PLEASE CONTACT THE LECTURER DIRECTLY: he is Lawrence McCrae (ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu). Thank you. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai --------------- Return-Path: Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by mailhub2.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02015 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01306 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (root at midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03389 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:37:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.135.36.155] (stravinsky.uchicago.edu [128.135.36.155]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA13160 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:34:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:34:21 -0600 To: magier at columbia.edu From: ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu (lawrence mccrea) Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Chicago Dear Mr. Magier, I am a lecturer in the South Asia department at the University of Chicago. We are offering Introductory Sanskrit as a summer course for the first time this year, and would like to publicize it as widely as possible. Professor Clinton Seely suggested to me that I send you this information for forwarding to various South Asia related e-mail lists. Information on the course is as follows: ******************************************************************************* Introductory Sanskrit 1,2,3 (South Asian Languages and Civilizations 250, 251, 252). 9:00am-1:00pm, MWF (June 22-August 28). Instructor: L. McCrea, Lecturer, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations. This course sequence fulfills the Common Core language requirement. The first half of the course sequence is spent mastering the reading and writing of Devanagari script and studying the grammar of the classical Sanskrit language. The remainder of the course sequence is devoted to close analytical reading of simple Sanskrit texts, which are used to reinforce the grammatical study done in the first half of the course. The aim is to bring students to the point where they are comfortably able, with the help of a dictionary, to read simple, narrative Sanskrit. Those interested in taking the course should contact: The University of Chicago Graham School of General Studies Summer Session Office 5835 Kimbark Avenue Chicago, IL 60637 (773) 702-6033 Email: uc-summer at uchicago.edu ****************************************************************************** I would greatly appreciate it if you could post this on any releveant lists. Many thanks, Lawrence McCrea From erhuberman at VASSAR.EDU Mon Apr 6 22:10:16 1998 From: erhuberman at VASSAR.EDU (Eric Huberman) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 16:10:16 -0600 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Chicago Message-ID: <161227037513.23782.11482693463895205571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David, I was wondering if you could let me know of any way to get into a Rama data base: I am looking for publications on specific aspects of Valmiki. Thanks, Eric Huberman From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Apr 6 22:04:43 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 17:04:43 -0500 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037516.23782.11757653386581309158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From the day Mr. Bhadriah Mallampalli started writing his hypothesis/theories on Vedas, I was wondering. Astonished to hear that one can talk of Vedas without knowing Sanskrit!! I do not believe that Tamils (to be cautious, Dravidian :-)) left without learning the complete Sanskrit letters. Tamil words don't require sounds like gh, etc., Post-300 BC Indian art shows clear influences of Greek art. eg., Gandharan art. After the decline of Achameniad (Spelling?) empire, shilpis came to Patna and mixed with the local shilpis See J. C. Harle, Art of the Indian subcontinent. Persian painters in Mughal courts sometimes used Renaissance paintings and made thier own Madonna depictions. Glad to hear today's Madonna is uttering Om Shunty, .. When heard that Indian art did not borrow from outside at all, I was surprised. Sincerely, N. Ganesan PS: What do people think of "Origins of Caste", and the like theorizings. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Apr 6 23:08:58 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 18:08:58 -0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037518.23782.2925481364704214103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> M. Kropf wrote: *it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the *grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by *devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomenon. I think this is true. C. Sivaramamurti explains this in his magnum opus, Art of India. Chola daughters married away to Vengi Prince of Andhra; their descendant Chodaganga Deva building Konarak. Seventh century CE saiva saint, Thirugnana Sambandhar sings a beautiful decad to Siva seeking help for protection when planets are doing harm. All the sanskrit namavalis may postdate this important bhakti hymn. Muthusvaami Dikshitar's navagraha kshetra krithis are precise and packed, I have heard. Dikshitar knew very well all the intricacies of jyothisa and mantra shastras. Prof. V. Raghavan, Madras university must have written on navagraha krithis, as he was always fond of Dikshitar. May be Srini Pichumani or Vidyasankar Sundaresan will know more on these master musical pieces. I can ask Mrs. Chitra Dharmarajan, a student of D. K. Pattammal. Pattammal, a master carnatic musdician, comes in the tradition of Muthusvaami Dikshitar and his relatives - Annasvami Dikshitar, Balusvami Dikshitar, Subbarama Dikshitar, Ambi Shastri,... There is a medieval Sani Bhagavan Tottiram in tamil. Reprinted several times by the three Saiva Siddhanta Adheenams that is popular. ki. vaa. ja., student of UVS, has written a book called navakkirakaGkaL (Alliance Publishers, Royapettah) In June 1997, there is an Indology thread on navagraha worship. On 26/jun/97, I gave some biblio info. Regards, N. Ganesan From roheko at MSN.COM Mon Apr 6 16:48:12 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 18:48:12 +0200 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037506.23782.10826871952562245410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But why we have to read this? Why you tell the whole world your thougths? Do you not have a diary? -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Vaidix An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Montag, 6. April 1998 10:51 Betreff: RGVedic AryAs >Dear list members > >After some thought I wanted to cook up other possibilities re: the word AryA >in RGVeda, instead of taking one position that we all know for ages. > >AryA was the preferred tribe, but remarks were found in which AryAs were also >hated. To say 'Vedic Aryans' is like saying 'Scientific Americans'. Afterall >everybody knows science now, including India which missed Industrial >revolution but caught up in just 50 years despite undermanagement. US is >technology leader because it leads in number of patents issued/pending. > >Veda may be the 'in thing' in ancient days like Java is today. I can not >imagine that Aryans monopolized this knowledge and left all other tribes >living at that time behind them despite Vivekananda. A literature as vast as >hundreds of thousands words of poetry and prose (not including other ancillary >literature which is at least 10 times the size of Vedas) can not be a small >task. Such a vast knowledge can not be handled safely by just one tribe. If >any other tribe massacres them it is all lost. A number of tribes fighting >among themselves occassionally, were maintaining it. So AryAs and dAsyus, >dAsAs (are dAsAs different from dAsyus?), possibly many other tribes who hated >both of them, and even asurAs all had the Vedic knowledge. Even purANAs say >rAvaNA was a Vedic scholar. AryAs may be leaders like US. > >Later some 'secular' civilization like classical Hindus had compiled all that >literature belonging to opposing tribes and preserved the different views. > >If we accept the historical validity of AryAs then we must also assume >responsibility to identify other tribes mentioned in RGVeda. Ignoring other >tribes is pick and choose interpretation. > >I have decided to work on the possibility that AryAs &c are not any historical >tribe at all, but just a part of Vedic symbolism. > >Another possibility is that AryAs &c may be real historic people, but authors >of Veda used the names of some existing tribes to compose their theology. > >Is there any other ancient literature outside of India that mentions AryAs? > >Regards >Bhadraiah Mallampalli > From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Apr 6 23:49:32 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 18:49:32 -0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as planetary deities Message-ID: <161227037520.23782.11354734505423534656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tiru Gnana Sambandhar's Tevaram hymn at TirunaLLaaRu temple. Sambandhar lived in early Seventh century CE. This pleads for Siva's protection from planetary wrath. I don't think these are translated yet. Got these songs from Univ. of Koeln web. Watch the importance of etukai/prAsam in tamil meter. (even if sanskrit only is known.) Sanskrit nAmAvalis on planetary will postdate 7th century CE. Or, Am I wrong? Regards, N. Ganesan kOLaRu patikam ************** (campantar tirunaLLaaRRil paaTiyatu) Qtev1x49x1 \BT pOkam Artta pUN mulaiyAL tan2n2OTum pon2 akalam \et Qtev1x49x1 \BT pAkam Artta paigkaN veL ERRu aNNal paramETTi \et Qtev1x49x1 \BT Akam Artta tOl uTaiyan2 kOvaNa ATaiyin2 mEl \et Qtev1x49x1 \BT nAkam Artta namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x2 \BT tOTu uTaiya kAtu uTaiyan2 tOl uTaiyan2 tolaiyAp \et Qtev1x49x2 \BT pITu uTaiya pOr viTaiyan2 peNNum OrpAl uTaiyan2 \et Qtev1x49x2 \BT ETu uTaiya mEl ulakOTu EzkaTalum cUznta \et Qtev1x49x2 \BT nATu uTaiya nam perumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x3 \BT An2 muRaiyAl ARRa veN nIRu ATi aNiyizai Or \et Qtev1x49x3 \BT pAl muRaiyAl vaitta pAtam pattar paNintu Etta \et Qtev1x49x3 \BT mAn2maRiyum veNmazuvum cUlamum paRRiya kai \et Qtev1x49x3 \BT nAl maRaiyAn2 namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x4 \BT pulka valla vArcaTaimEl pUmpun2al peytu ayalE \et Qtev1x49x4 \BT malka valla kon2Rai mAlai matiyOTu uTan2 cUTi \et Qtev1x49x4 \BT palka valla toNTar tam pon2pAta nizal cEra \et Qtev1x49x4 \BT nalka valla namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x5 \BT ERu tAgki Urti pENi Er koL iLamatiyam \et Qtev1x49x5 \BT ARu tAgkum cen2n2imEl Or ATu aravam cUTi \et Qtev1x49x5 \BT nIRu tAgki nUl kiTanta mArpil nirai kon2Rai \et Qtev1x49x5 \BT nARu tAgku namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x6 \BT tigkaL uccimEl viLagkum tEvan2 imaiyOrkaL \et Qtev1x49x6 \BT egkaL ucci em iRaivan2 en2Ru aTiyE iRaijnca \et Qtev1x49x6 \BT tagkaL ucciyAl vaNagkum tan2 aTiyArkaTku ellAm \et Qtev1x49x6 \BT nagkaL ucci namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x7 \BT vejncuTart tI agkai Enti viN koL muzavu atira \et Qtev1x49x7 \BT ajncu iTattu Or ATal pATal pENuvatu an2Riyum pOy \et Qtev1x49x7 \BT cejncaTaikku Or tigkaL cUTi tikaztaru kaNTattuLLE \et Qtev1x49x7 \BT najncu aTaitta namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x8 \BT ciTTam Arnta mummatilum cilaivarait tI ampin2Al \et Qtev1x49x8 \BT cuTTu mATTi cuNNa veN nIRu ATuvatu an2Riyum pOyp \et Qtev1x49x8 \BT paTTam Arnta cen2n2imEl Or pAl matiyam cUTi \et Qtev1x49x8 \BT naTTam ATum namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x9 \BT uNNal AkA najncu kaNTattu uNTu uTan2E oTukki \et Qtev1x49x9 \BT aNNal AkA aNNal nIzal Ar azal pOl uruvam \et Qtev1x49x9 \BT eNNal AkA uL vin2ai en2Ru eLka valittu iruvar \et Qtev1x49x9 \BT naNNal AkA namperumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x10 \BT mAcu meyyar maNTait tErar kuNTar kuNam ilikaL \et Qtev1x49x10 \BT pEcum pEccai mey en2Ru eNNi an neRi cellan2 min2 \et Qtev1x49x10 \BT mUcu vaNTu Ar kon2Rai cUTi mummatilum uTan2E \et Qtev1x49x10 \BT nAcam ceyta nam perumAn2 mEyatu naLLARE. \et Qtev1x49x11 \BT taNpun2alum veNpiRaiyum tAgkiya tAzcaTaiyan2 \et Qtev1x49x11 \BT naNpu nallAr malku kAzi jnAn2acampantan2 nalla \et Qtev1x49x11 \BT paNpu naLLARu Ettu pATal pattum ivai vallAr \et Qtev1x49x11 \BT uNpu nIgki vAn2avarOTu ulakil uRaivArE. \et ********* Tamil Transliteration Scheme: a A i I u U e E ai o O au (vowels) k gn c jn T N t n p m y r l v z L R n2 (consonants) q (Aytam) From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Apr 6 23:56:08 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 18:56:08 -0500 Subject: navagraha worship as planetary deities Message-ID: <161227037524.23782.16190991841358366549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I did not post kOLRu patikam. I will post the correct one. Sorry for the mistake, N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Apr 7 03:53:14 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 22:53:14 -0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037526.23782.13621483851205000451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Earlier, I posted a TirunaLLaaRu patikam, but it was not about ills caused by planets, nakshatras and seeking Siva's help. Sorry. Tiru Gnana Sambandhar's Tevaram hymn at TirunaLLaaRu temple. Sambandhar lived in early Seventh century CE. This pleads for Siva's protection from planetary wrath. I don't think these are translated yet. Got these songs from Univ. of Koeln web. Watch the importance of etukai/prAsam in tamil meter. (even if sanskrit only is known.) Sanskrit nAmAvalis on planetary will postdate 7th century CE. Or, Am I wrong? Regards, N. Ganesan kOLaRu patikam ************** (campantar tirunaLLaaRRil paaTiyatu) Qtev2x85x1 \BT vEy uRu tOLi pagkan2 viTam uNTa kaNTan2 mika nalla vINai taTavi \et Qtev2x85x1 \BT mAcu aRu tigkaL kagkai muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x1 \BT jnAyiRu tigkaL cevvAy putan2 viyAzam veLLi can2i pAmpu iraNTum uTan2E \et Qtev2x85x1 \BT Acu aRum; nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x2 \BT en2poTu kompoTu Amai ivai mArpu ilagka erutu ERi Ezai uTan2E \et Qtev2x85x2 \BT pon2 poti mattamAlai pun2al cUTi vantu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x2 \BT on2patoTu on2RoTu Ezu patin2eTToTu ARum uTan2 Aya nALkaL avaitAm \et Qtev2x85x2 \BT an2poTu nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x3 \BT uru valar pavaLa mEn2i oLi nIRu aNintu umaiyOTum veLLai viTai mEl \et Qtev2x85x3 \BT muruku alar kon2Rai tigkaL muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x3 \BT tirumakaL kalai atu Urti ceyamAtu pUmi ticai teyvam An2a palavum \et Qtev2x85x3 \BT aru neti nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x4 \BT mati nutal magkaiyOTu vaTa pAl iruntu maRai Otum egkaL paraman2 \et Qtev2x85x4 \BT natiyoTu kon2Rai mAlai muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x4 \BT koti uRu kAlan2 agki naman2OTu tUtar koTu nOykaL An2apalavum \et Qtev2x85x4 \BT atikuNamm nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x5 \BT najncu aNi kaNTan2 entai maTavAL tan2OTum viTai ERum nagkaL paraman2 \et Qtev2x85x5 \BT tujncu iruL van2n2i kon2Rai muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x5 \BT vejncin2a avuNarOTum urum iTiyum min2n2um mikai An2a pUtam avaiyum \et Qtev2x85x5 \BT ajnciTum; nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x6 \BT vALvari ataL ataL atu ATai vari kOvaNattar maTavAL tan2OTum uTan2 Ay \et Qtev2x85x6 \BT nALmalar van2n2i kon2Rai nati cUTi vantu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x6 \BT kOL ari uzuvaiyOTu kolai yAn2ai kEzal koTu nAkamOTu karaTi \et Qtev2x85x6 \BT AL ari nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x7 \BT ceppu iLamulai nal magkai orupAkam Aka viTai ERu celvan2 aTaivu Ar \et Qtev2x85x7 \BT oppu iLamatiyum appum muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x7 \BT veppoTu kuLirum vAtam mikai An2a pittum vin2ai An2a vantu naliyA; \et Qtev2x85x7 \BT appaTi nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x8 \BT vEL paTa vizi ceytu an2Ru viTamEl iruntu maTavAL tan2OTum uTan2 Ay \et Qtev2x85x8 \BT vALmati van2n2i kon2Raimalar cUTi vantu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x8 \BT EzkaTal cUz ilagkai araiyan2 tan2OTum iTar An2a vantu naliyA; \et Qtev2x85x8 \BT Az kaTal nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x9 \BT pala pala vETam paran2 nAripAkan2 pacu ERum egkaL paraman2 \et Qtev2x85x9 \BT cala makaLOTu erukku muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x9 \BT malar micaiyOn2um mAlum maRaiyOTu tEvar varu kAlam An2a palavum \et Qtev2x85x9 \BT alaikaTal mEru nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x10 \BT kottu alar kuzaliyOTu vicayaRku nalku kuNam Aya vETa vikirtan2 \et Qtev2x85x10 \BT mattamum matiyum nAkam muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et Qtev2x85x10 \BT malar micaiyOn2um mAlum maRaiyOTu tEvar varu kAlam An2a palavum \et Qtev2x85x10 \BT alaikaTal mEru nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et Qtev2x85x11 \BT tEn2 amar pozil koL Alai viLai cennel tun2n2i vaLar cempon2 egkum nikaza \et Qtev2x85x11 \BT nAn2mukan2 Ati Aya piramApurattu maRaijnAn2a jnAn2amun2ivan2 \et Qtev2x85x11 \BT tAn2 uRu kOLum nALum aTiyArai vantu naliyAta vaNNam urai cey \et Qtev2x85x11 \BT An2a col mAlai Otum aTiyArkaL vAn2il aracu ALvar; ANai namatE. \et * kOLaRu patikam muRRiRRu * ********* Tamil Transliteration Scheme: a A i I u U e E ai o O au (vowels) k gn c jn T N t n p m y r l v z L R n2 (consonants) q (Aytam) From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 7 06:28:36 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 23:28:36 -0700 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037528.23782.4747491803904429091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >Muthusvaami Dikshitar's navagraha kshetra krithis are >precise and packed, I have heard. Dikshitar knew very well >all the intricacies of jyothisa and mantra shastras. >Prof. V. Raghavan, Madras university must have written on >navagraha krithis, as he was always fond of Dikshitar. See the following website (maintained by Todd McComb) for the lyrics of the navagraha songs - . These nine compositions have references to the mantras used to propitiate the nava grahas, from the saurAshTrArNa mantra for the sun, to ketuM ghRNvan for ketu. There are also full references to the standard mythology of the planets, but they don't have any special reference to the navagraha kshetras in Tamil Nadu. The only exception is the suraTi composition on angAraka, which refers to vaidISvaran koil in Tanjavur (pUjita-vaidyanAtha-kshetram). There is some doubt if the compositions on rAhu (smarAmyaham sadA rAhum, in ramAmanoharI) and ketu (mahAsuram ketum, in cAmaram) were originally by muttusvAmi dIkshitar, or if they were added by a later, anonymous composer, to an older set of seven, for the sake of completeness. The original seven would then be sapta-vAra (not navagraha) compositions. This hypothesis is strengthened by the fact that these seven are set to the seven different mArga tAlas (the SUlAdi sapta tAlas - dhruva, maTya and so on), while the ones on rAhu and ketu are both in rUpaka. The language of these last two compositions is also said to be very unlike dIkshitar's usage, but this is debatable. There is also some talk of manuscript evidence in this regard, but none of the contemporary Indian musicologists seem to have the requisite training to say much about this. I'm not sure if anything conclusive can be said from the point of view of mss, as all available ones are copies of the same 19th century sources, connected to the Dikshitar family. As is often the case with controversies, there seem to be some ad-hoc claims being made. The controversy over the compositions on rAhu and ketu presumes that the seven others are genuinely muttusvAmi dIkshitar's compositions. Now, although nobody seems to have brought this up in the Carnatic music world, the composition on Sukra (SrI Sukra bhagavantam, in Paras) is quite problematic. The song begins in the accusative case, but shifts to a vocative case (hE Sukra bhagavan mAm ASu pAlaya, vRshatulAdhISa), and reverts to the accusative case (daitya hitopadeSam, keSava kaTAkshaikanetram) immediately after. This happens quite abruptly in the middle of the same sentence in the anupallavi, which sounds very unprofessional for a composer of muttusvAmi dIkshitar's calibre. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Vaidix at AOL.COM Tue Apr 7 07:40:44 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 03:40:44 -0400 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037530.23782.16483762331335422011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Ganesan wrote... > From the day Mr. Bhadriah Mallampalli started writing his > hypothesis/theories on Vedas, I was wondering. > Astonished to hear that one can talk of Vedas without knowing > Sanskrit!! To say that one has to know Sanskrit to talk of, or understand vedas is an insult to every other language, also insult to every other living being. To understand veda all you need is identify bRhaspati in oneself. It just takes a few minutes of meditation to identify, but I advise people don't try it out yet. It needs some stamina. For one who knows bRhaspati whatever one speaks of is veda, and whatever language one speaks gets sanctified (again I am not trying impose Hindu values on other cultures, apologies, but to me it is a neurological fact). > Tamil, European influence etc, AryAs. That was all noise. I do not subscribe to any opinion I expressed. My intention is to impress upon people that the first thing to do is open up possible alternatives impartially and then start discuss the final solutions, instead of taking positions dictated by historians. If you start out right, I accept any decision. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Apr 7 00:21:41 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 05:21:41 +0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037522.23782.8132307910063358563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:08 PM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >Seventh century CE saiva saint, Thirugnana Sambandhar >sings a beautiful decad to Siva seeking help for protection >when planets are doing harm. All the sanskrit namavalis >may postdate this important bhakti hymn. What are your reasons for this statement? >Muthusvaami Dikshitar's navagraha kshetra krithis are >precise and packed, I have heard. They are not navagraha kshetra krithis but simply navagraha krithis. >Muthusvaami Dikshitar and his relatives - >Annasvami Dikshitar, Balusvami Dikshitar, >Subbarama Dikshitar, Ambi Shastri,... > Not Annasvami but Chinnasami Dikshitar. I do not know whether Ambi Dikshitar is also called Ambi Sastri. His real name Muddusvami Dikshitar named after his composer ancestor. regards, sarma. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > > From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Apr 7 14:09:30 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 09:09:30 -0500 Subject: Humans, animals and plants Message-ID: <161227037534.23782.13964643423729505573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Humans, animals and plants At 04:19 PM 4/3/98 -0500, Alok Kumar wrote: >I am interested in knowing ancient views (Vedic and Upanishads period) on >1. Status of women with respect to men in family and society. In >Hindu religion, goddesses are worshiped, indicating an influential status >for females. Were they also equal in status for their roles in family and >society. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: *You should take a look at Stephanie W. Jamison's book "Sacrificed Wife, *Sacrificer's Wife." New York: Oxford University press, 1996. See also, Tracy Pintchman, The rise of the Goddess in the Hindu tradition, SUNY, 1994. N. Ganesan Aside: Briefly saw this book. Thoroughly impressed. A similar work on Siva will fill a large gap. A minimam two-volume work on the "The Rise of Siva in the Hindu tradition" will be very good. The Rise of Siva in Sanskrit tradition; Vedic Rudra, then Siva, etc., How are the agama tradition handed down by Adhisaiva Sivacharyars and printed by French Institute of Pondichery, by Prof. J. Filliozat, Dr. N. R. Bhatt, etc., Veerasaiva agamas of Karnataka and the Vedic, Epic, Puranic literatures of Siva related. How the Southern Sanskrit Saiva Siddhanta literature (eg., Aghora Sivacharyar of Tiruveezhimizhalai) and Kashmir Saivism relate to each other? Their historical developments. Adi Sankara, Kashmir Saivism works from SUNY press., Certain aspects of Siva is found in Indra earlier. I think Ramana Maharishi's disciple wrote a book on this aspect. The second volume must be from Tamil Saivism and other Dravidian languages., Tevaram etc., I know Gonda, Sivaramamurti, Kramrisch, Wendy Doniger, Nagaswamy, R. Davis, Indira Peterson (on Tevaram), &c., have done work on Siva. Still, this major task, can we call it "Unified theory of Siva" is not yet done. It is not a small job. Is Siva Dravidian or Pre-Aryan or Aryan or a good synthesis of Aryan/Dravian?? Siva is very complex, as we all know. Any references on Siva in a historical perspective that I must read. Suggestions welcome. Regards, N. Ganesan From srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU Tue Apr 7 16:50:05 1998 From: srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 12:50:05 -0400 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037538.23782.4838809996774926629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Muthusvaami Dikshitar and his relatives - >Annasvami Dikshitar, Balusvami Dikshitar, >Subbarama Dikshitar, Ambi Shastri,... > Not Annasvami but Chinnasami Dikshitar. I do not know whether Ambi Dikshitar is also called Ambi Sastri. His real name Muddusvami Dikshitar named after his composer ancestor. Ambi S'AstrI was a different person... he was also a composer... his kritis in Sanskrit have been preserved with text and notation on palm leaf manuscripts in the Saraswati Mahal Library at Tanjore. They were published in book form a while ago. -Srini. From jkirk at MICRON.NET Tue Apr 7 19:26:25 1998 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (Jo Kirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 13:26:25 -0600 Subject: Question... Message-ID: <161227037540.23782.14160061407016923276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I tried to email Ms Pernstich according to the email address on this Indology post, and it bounced back. Something wrong with the email address. Would Ms Pernstich please fix this? She could email me if she likes. J Kirkpatrick ************************ Could anyone who knows please tell me more about this? Origin/meaning of the custom, maybe some text references, and especially where it was/still is practiced. Trying to write a thing on different aspects of prostitution in India. > Thanks Nat From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 7 22:44:29 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 15:44:29 -0700 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037542.23782.3602535335225272652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding N.Ganesan's comments about the various planets and the stotras post-dating the Tamil texts, I would be most interested in knowing his source of information and request him to share it with us. >?From texts that I'm familiar with, S.K.Ramachandra Rao's "Nava Graha Kosha" traces some of these Samskrt stotras back to the 5th century A.D.and also talks of a collection of 43 verses which parallel the Atharva Veda. In addition, Stephen Markel also says something similar in his PhD dissertation on the Navagrahas, dating some of them to atleast the 4th century A.D...I'd therefore be more inclined to think that the tradition of such verses in Samskrt is longer than that of Tamil. Vidyasankar Sundaresan says: <> This is an interesting point; however I should point out that this is not the only place where this kind of changing of cases( abrupt change or otherwise being subjective) takes place. Even in the kamalAmba navAvarNa kr*ti( which is most certainly Dikshitar's) this kind of vibhakti change does take place,(in the Ahiri kr*ti) the difference being that everything from prathamA to sambOdhana prathamA gets covered in this kr*ti( as opposed to a single change in "zrI zukra bhagavantam"). If one were to talk about inaccuracies ( which is what Vidyasankar seems to be refering to), I've seen that the last part of the Ahiri krti which using sambodhana prathamA with I-karAnta strIlimga zabdas mistransliterate/ and lengthen the vowel. ( i.e. it is like saying "hE gaurI" in place of "hE gauri").Such incorrect transmission has also been noted in the yadukulakAmbhOji kr*ti "abhayAmbikAyai azvArUDhAyai". I therefore believe that the anamoly of changing vibhaktis can be explained more in terms of possible incorrect transmission as opposed to somebody else writing the krti in place of Dikshitar. I remember reading some place that Dikshitar composed this krti in the raga Paraju, which was foriegn to Carnatic music in order to bring out the "foriegn" status of zukra i.e. he was a deva who was advising the dAnavas. IF one were to accept this argument, it is also possible that he came up with this sudden switch to the dvitiyA vibhakti and back ( a grammatical peculiarity)in order to illustrate the peculiar situation in which zukra had been placed. From what I remember of the story of yayAti,( not sure though) there was a situation where zukra tried to approach the devas but was forced to go back to the danavas.It may have been possible that dikshitar was trying to illustrate this attempted change of status through this quick change of vibhakti. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From barathi at PC.JARING.MY Tue Apr 7 09:12:26 1998 From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 17:12:26 +0800 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037532.23782.14416085961377026107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:53 PM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >Earlier, I posted a TirunaLLaaRu patikam, but it was not >about ills caused by planets, nakshatras and seeking Siva's >help. Sorry. Dear Dr.Ganesan, In a way you were correct in saying that the "Thiru naLLARRuth thirup pathigam" is used to invoke Siva's help in attenuating the evil effects of planets. It is used for afflictions by SanaiSchara. People with Ashtama, Ardhashtama, and Ezharai afflictions of Sani, recite this particular pathigam. It is also known as the "Pachchaip pathigam" and is involved in a particular miracle called "analvAdham" performed by Sambandhar. > >Tiru Gnana Sambandhar's Tevaram hymn at TirunaLLaaRu temple. >Sambandhar lived in early Seventh century CE. >This pleads for Siva's protection from planetary wrath. >I don't think these are translated yet. So far I have not come across the translation of any full Tevara pathigam. We do see many pathigams in transliteration or in any one of the fonts. But translation- no. Not as yet, any way. We don't even see some form of brief introduction which might be a slight consolation. But there are rumours that more than one person is involved in translation. Periya puranam is one the works- ` I was told. The "kOL aRu thirup pathigam" was composed as a reassuarance against all forms of ills including the disasterous effects of planets and asterisms. For the true beleivers of the Supreme Lord Siva, all the various forms of evils will certainly turn good and do good. That is what is reiterated again and again in every one of the verses. That is the gist of the whole hymn. Sambandhar mentions about the planets, ie., the nine of them in the first verse. For a devotee of Siva, these will become good. The last lines of every verse contains this pledge and assuarance. In the second, he deals with the twenty-seven asterisms. In the third, he pledges the help of other deities like Lakshmi, and Durga. In the fourth, some natural calamities like mass death, fire, fatal epidemics are mentioned. In the fifth, he talks about demons, raksasas, and more natural disasters like thunder and lightening; in the sixth, all the dangerous animals; in the seventh all the various illnesses and diseases; in the eighth, cruel tyrants like Ravana; in the ninth, he says that Vishnu and Brahma would help the devotees of Siva; in the tenth, he curses the alien heretical doctrines; in the last and eleventh verse called "thiru kadaik kAppu" he swears by Siva that those who recite this pathigam will rule over the heavens. This pathigam can be said to be the earliest precursor to all the "kavacam'" hymns that are to be found in Tamil. All though it was named as the "koL aRu thirp pathigam", which roughly translated would mean pathigam which dispels the planets, in its true nature covers all ills. P.S. The words "catastrophe" and "disaster" are both derived from the word "Aster"= star. Regards Jayabarathi >Got these songs from Univ. of Koeln web. >Watch the importance of etukai/prAsam in tamil meter. >(even if sanskrit only is known.) > >Sanskrit nAmAvalis on planetary will postdate 7th century CE. >Or, Am I wrong? > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > kOLaRu patikam > ************** > (campantar tirunaLLaaRRil paaTiyatu) > > >Qtev2x85x1 \BT vEy uRu tOLi pagkan2 viTam uNTa kaNTan2 mika nalla vINai taTavi \et >Qtev2x85x1 \BT mAcu aRu tigkaL kagkai muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x1 \BT jnAyiRu tigkaL cevvAy putan2 viyAzam veLLi can2i pAmpu iraNTum uTan2E \et >Qtev2x85x1 \BT Acu aRum; nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x2 \BT en2poTu kompoTu Amai ivai mArpu ilagka erutu ERi Ezai uTan2E \et >Qtev2x85x2 \BT pon2 poti mattamAlai pun2al cUTi vantu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x2 \BT on2patoTu on2RoTu Ezu patin2eTToTu ARum uTan2 Aya nALkaL avaitAm \et >Qtev2x85x2 \BT an2poTu nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x3 \BT uru valar pavaLa mEn2i oLi nIRu aNintu umaiyOTum veLLai viTai mEl \et >Qtev2x85x3 \BT muruku alar kon2Rai tigkaL muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x3 \BT tirumakaL kalai atu Urti ceyamAtu pUmi ticai teyvam An2a palavum \et >Qtev2x85x3 \BT aru neti nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x4 \BT mati nutal magkaiyOTu vaTa pAl iruntu maRai Otum egkaL paraman2 \et >Qtev2x85x4 \BT natiyoTu kon2Rai mAlai muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x4 \BT koti uRu kAlan2 agki naman2OTu tUtar koTu nOykaL An2apalavum \et >Qtev2x85x4 \BT atikuNamm nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x5 \BT najncu aNi kaNTan2 entai maTavAL tan2OTum viTai ERum nagkaL paraman2 \et >Qtev2x85x5 \BT tujncu iruL van2n2i kon2Rai muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x5 \BT vejncin2a avuNarOTum urum iTiyum min2n2um mikai An2a pUtam avaiyum \et >Qtev2x85x5 \BT ajnciTum; nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x6 \BT vALvari ataL ataL atu ATai vari kOvaNattar maTavAL tan2OTum uTan2 Ay \et >Qtev2x85x6 \BT nALmalar van2n2i kon2Rai nati cUTi vantu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x6 \BT kOL ari uzuvaiyOTu kolai yAn2ai kEzal koTu nAkamOTu karaTi \et >Qtev2x85x6 \BT AL ari nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x7 \BT ceppu iLamulai nal magkai orupAkam Aka viTai ERu celvan2 aTaivu Ar \et >Qtev2x85x7 \BT oppu iLamatiyum appum muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x7 \BT veppoTu kuLirum vAtam mikai An2a pittum vin2ai An2a vantu naliyA; \et >Qtev2x85x7 \BT appaTi nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x8 \BT vEL paTa vizi ceytu an2Ru viTamEl iruntu maTavAL tan2OTum uTan2 Ay \et >Qtev2x85x8 \BT vALmati van2n2i kon2Raimalar cUTi vantu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x8 \BT EzkaTal cUz ilagkai araiyan2 tan2OTum iTar An2a vantu naliyA; \et >Qtev2x85x8 \BT Az kaTal nalla nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x9 \BT pala pala vETam paran2 nAripAkan2 pacu ERum egkaL paraman2 \et >Qtev2x85x9 \BT cala makaLOTu erukku muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x9 \BT malar micaiyOn2um mAlum maRaiyOTu tEvar varu kAlam An2a palavum \et >Qtev2x85x9 \BT alaikaTal mEru nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x10 \BT kottu alar kuzaliyOTu vicayaRku nalku kuNam Aya vETa vikirtan2 \et >Qtev2x85x10 \BT mattamum matiyum nAkam muTimEl aNintu en2 uLamE pukunta atan2Al \et >Qtev2x85x10 \BT malar micaiyOn2um mAlum maRaiyOTu tEvar varu kAlam An2a palavum \et >Qtev2x85x10 \BT alaikaTal mEru nalla; avai nalla nalla aTiyAr avarkku mikavE. \et > >Qtev2x85x11 \BT tEn2 amar pozil koL Alai viLai cennel tun2n2i vaLar cempon2 egkum nikaza \et >Qtev2x85x11 \BT nAn2mukan2 Ati Aya piramApurattu maRaijnAn2a jnAn2amun2ivan2 \et >Qtev2x85x11 \BT tAn2 uRu kOLum nALum aTiyArai vantu naliyAta vaNNam urai cey \et >Qtev2x85x11 \BT An2a col mAlai Otum aTiyArkaL vAn2il aracu ALvar; ANai namatE. \et > > * kOLaRu patikam muRRiRRu * > >********* > > Tamil Transliteration Scheme: > > a A i I u U e E ai o O au (vowels) > k gn c jn T N t n p m y r l v z L R n2 (consonants) > q (Aytam) > > From a9607945 at UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue Apr 7 16:42:47 1998 From: a9607945 at UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT (nathalie Pernstich) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 18:42:47 +0200 Subject: Question... Message-ID: <161227037536.23782.8269106442669131947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Gilada of the Indian Health Organisation (IHO) mentioned to my mother a while ago that there is a custom/ritual in some village(s)/tribe(s) by which young girls are consecrated by a yearl ceremony to be 'prostitutes'. They wear some kind of special stone or coin around their neck. All I know is this (not a lot) and that some of these girls are being treated in Dr. Gilada's Aids Clinic in Bombay. Could anyone who knows please tell me more about this? Origin/meaning of the custom, maybe some text references, and especially where it was/still is practiced. Trying to write a thing on different aspects of prostitution in India. Thanks Nat ---------- > Von: sudheer birodkar > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Betreff: Re: RGVedic AryAs > Datum: Montag, 6. April 1998 11:11 > > > Is there any other ancient literature outside of >India that > mentions AryAs? > > > Bhadraiah Mallampalli > > Dear List Members, > > Here is one inscription in ancient Pehlavi found at Behuistan (or > Naqsh-i-Rustam?) in Iran which dates to the 4th century B.C.E. and is > ascribed to the Achameanian (Hakkamanishiya) Emperor Daryush or > Drayavayush (Darius in Greek): > > "Adam Daryavayush, > KshAyatiya VAzraka, > KshAyatiya KshAyatiyanAm, > PArshya, PArshya Puthra, > Arya Arya Chithra." > > Loosely rendered in Sanskrit it could read: > > "Aham Daryavayush, > Kshatriya VirAta, > KshatrAnAm Kshtra, > PArshya, PArshya Putra, > Arya Arya Vamsa." > > In English it would read: > > "I am Darius, > The Great King, > King of Kings, > Am a Persian, of Persian Descent > An Aryan or Aryan Lineage." > > This is one actual description of a king of himself as an Aryan. > > Sudheer Birodkar > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 8 06:43:06 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 23:43:06 -0700 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037552.23782.17766773398987499588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna writes: >Vidyasankar Sundaresan says: > ><the seven others are genuinely muttusvAmi dIkshitar's compositions. >Now,although nobody seems to have brought this up in the Carnatic music >world, the composition on Sukra (SrI Sukra bhagavantam, in Paras) >isquite problematic. The song begins in the accusative case, but shifts >to a vocative case (hE Sukra bhagavan mAm ASu pAlaya, vRshatulAdhISa), >andreverts to the accusative case (daitya hitopadeSam, keSava >kaTAkshaikanetram) immediately after. This happens quite abruptly in the >middle of the same sentence in the anupallavi, which sounds very >unprofessional for a composer of muttusvAmi dIkshitar's calibre.>> > > This is an interesting point; however I should point out that this >is not the only place where this kind of changing of cases( abrupt >change or otherwise being subjective) takes place. Even in the kamalAmba >navAvarNa kr*ti( which is most certainly Dikshitar's) this kind of >vibhakti change does take place,(in the Ahiri kr*ti) the difference >being that everything from prathamA to sambOdhana prathamA gets covered There is a big difference between the change of case in the Ahiri composition in the navAvaraNa set and in the Pharas composition on Sukra. In the former, the change of case is in proper order, with a steady pattern to it. In the Pharas composition, the change seems uncalled for. Also, in the Ahiri composition, each change of case is done in a separate clause/sentence, which can stand by itself. There is kamalAmbA jayati, followed by mahAtripurasundarIm rAjarAjeSvarIm cintaye'ham, pAlito dayAkarayA and so on. In the Pharas composition, the rest of the anupallavi and the caraNam have no separate verb, so that they have to be connected to the pallavi, in order to make sense. Therefore, the sambodhana sticks out in the middle of the dvitIyA. There can be no doubt about the Ahiri composition being muttusvAmi dIkshitar's, but the Pharas one remains debatable. >in this kr*ti( as opposed to a single change in "zrI zukra >bhagavantam"). If one were to talk about inaccuracies ( which is what >Vidyasankar seems to be refering to), I've seen that the last part of >the Ahiri krti which using sambodhana prathamA with I-karAnta strIlimga >zabdas mistransliterate/ and lengthen the vowel. ( i.e. it is like >saying "hE gaurI" in place of "hE gauri").Such incorrect transmission In the Ahiri navAvaraNa composition, the portion "brahmamaya prakASinI, nAmarUpa vimarSinI, kAmakalA pradarSinI, sAmarasya nidarSinI" has to be connected with the sentence kamalAmbA jayati (in the pallavi), so the I-kArAnta is justified. It is effectively a final return to the prathamA, in order to round off the composition. The sambodhana is present in the word cinmAtre, which occurs in the sentence which uses the dative case - SrI mAtre namaste cinmAtre. And if you notice the SrI composition which uses sambodhana throughout, the i-kArAnta has been transmitted by musicians quite properly. >has also been noted in the yadukulakAmbhOji kr*ti "abhayAmbikAyai >azvArUDhAyai". I therefore believe that the anamoly of changing >vibhaktis can be explained more in terms of possible incorrect >transmission as opposed to somebody else writing the krti in place of >Dikshitar. It can also be explained in terms of an interpolation into an original composition by muttusvAmi dIkshitar. > I remember reading some place that Dikshitar composed this krti >in the raga Paraju, which was foriegn to Carnatic music in order to >bring out the "foriegn" status of zukra i.e. he was a deva who was >advising the dAnavas. IF one were to accept this argument, it is also >possible that he came up with this sudden switch to the dvitiyA vibhakti >and back ( a grammatical peculiarity)in order to illustrate >the peculiar situation in which zukra had been placed. From what I Well, mythology can be used in myriad ways. But we must remember that Pharas is mentioned even in the cilappatikAram (if its identification with the takkeSi paN is correct), so it is not all that foreign to Carnatic music. In any case, UttukkADu venkaTasubbaiyar, a pre-dIkshitar composer has also composed in Pharas. In contrast, dvijAvantI is a more 'foreign' rAga, which was first introduced to Carnatic music by muttusvAmi dIkshitar. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 8 00:54:10 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 05:54:10 +0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037545.23782.17997849653555265575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:44 PM 4/7/98 PDT, S.Krishna wrote: >Even in the kamalAmba >navAvarNa kr*ti( which is most certainly Dikshitar's) this kind of >vibhakti change does take place,(in the Ahiri kr*ti) the difference >being that everything from prathamA to sambOdhana prathamA gets covered >in this kr*ti( as opposed to a single change in "zrI zukra >bhagavantam"). There is a prakriya called sArvavibhaktikam in sanskrit literature in which all the vibhaktis are used in the same piece. In telugu there is a sizable body of such writings called udAharaNa vAJmayam. Dikshitar is obviously following this tradition in Ahiri piece. > > I remember reading some place that Dikshitar composed this krti >in the raga Paraju, which was foriegn to Carnatic music in order to >bring out the "foriegn" status of zukra i.e. he was a deva who was >advising the dAnavas. IF one were to accept this argument, it is also >possible that he came up with this sudden switch to the dvitiyA vibhakti >and back ( a grammatical peculiarity)in order to illustrate >the peculiar situation in which zukra had been placed. From what I >remember of the story of yayAti,( not sure though) there was a situation >where zukra tried to approach the devas but was forced to go back to the >danavas.It may have been possible that dikshitar was trying to >illustrate this attempted change of status through this >quick change of vibhakti. This is interesting. > >Regards, >Krishna > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 8 03:19:47 1998 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (anil k gupta) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 08:49:47 +0530 Subject: some remarks Message-ID: <161227037549.23782.3300657691863179826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sorry, I am at IIM ahmedabad but happy to know you nevertheless good luck with your interviews anil -----Original Message----- From: George Cronk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 7:26 AM Subject: Re: some remarks >Are you Professor Gupta of Indiana University? I am Dr. George Cronk, Chair >of the Dept. of Philosophy & Religion, at Bergen Community College in New >Jersey. We are scheduled to interview Byeong D. Lee on May 4 for a teaching >position in Philosophy here. Dr. Lee was your student, right? > >Just thought I'd say hello. > >-----Original Message----- >From: anil k gupta >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 8:59 AM >Subject: Re: some remarks > > >>excellent note after a long time shorn of extremist notions, lucid and >>likeable >> >>anil >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dominique.Thillaud >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 3:13 PM >>Subject: some remarks >> >> >>>Dear Indologists, >>> Despite my intention don't to touch my keyboard in dubious >debates, >>>I can't restrain to write few words ;) >>> >>>1) can we stop to playing with words ? >>> >>>Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: "can not grasp and remember simple words like >>>"Scheduled castes" of Indian society, and continue to use the incorrect >>>"untouchables" (a word banished from official Indian media long ago)" >>> 1) I suppose English and American peoples are better judges about >>>the use of their own mother tongue ;) >>> 2) Changing names don't change the reality. I find ridiculous the >>>new tendancy of "banishing words". In France, it's today incorrect to say >>>"aveugle" (blind) or "sourd" (deaf), they must be replaced by "non-voyant" >>>(not seeing) and "mal-entendant" (badly hearing): what is changing for >>>them? I agree with a french humorist who suggested to replace "con" >>>(bloody) by "mal-comprenant" (badly undrstanding). I'm afraid that >>>rejecting "untouchables" is nothing but a poor essay to close the eyes >over >>>a real problem; "scheduled castes" seems to me an insulting euphemism and, >>>speaking French, I'll continue to use the words "intouchables" or >"parias". >>> >>>George Thompson wrote: "we're supposed to be talking about a *migration >>>theory*. If you keep on insisting on an *invasion theory*, where there is >>>none ..." >>> I don't understand clearly the difference between the two words. >>>Was the coming of Europeans in East America a migration or an invasion? >Was >>>the coming of East Americans in West America a migration or an invasion? >>> From the American point of view they were peaceful farmers going >>>toward free lands, undoubtly a migration. Alas, Amerindians knew well the >>>land was not "free", the peaceful farmers were armed with guns and >>>travelling with a powerful army, undoubtly an invasion (some >>>ill-intentioned people say a genocid)! >>> Once again, debating about words is not debating about reality but >>>about ideological point of view ;) >>> >>>2) colonialist scholars ? >>> >>> I, personnally, reject firmly any accusation of colonialism or >>>neo-colonialism. I know perfectly that India was colonized by England, a >>>big part of Africa by France, Greece and Gaul by Roma, &c. I know >perfectly >>>that few scholars gave an ideological support to all conquests and >>>slaveries, eurindianist Germans to the nazi power, Russian biologists to >>>the stalinian one, &c. But they were very few! >>> In a large majority, scholars are honest and honourable* peoples, >>>rarely supporting the politic of their government, rarely involved in >>>military or economical war. To reject the point of view of westerner >>>scholars with an accusation of colonialism is not only insulting, but also >>>stupid. >>> When I consider the Indian civilization as an Eurindian one, >that's >>>based on many serious and published studies. I have nothing to do with the >>>eventual "greatness" of any land! I'm studying them but I don't like >>>Eurindians nor their ideology. They were war fans and the extension of >>>Eurindian languages all over the world shows perfectly they had no >problems >>>in destroying civilizations. It's true that some of them, by a later >>>evolution, attained a wonderful state of spiritual development, but just >>>few of them (I know only Greece and India in this way). I suppose (just my >>>religious opinion: no debate, please) that other ones were "perverted" in >>>their evolution by bellicist monotheistic ideologies ("Dieu reconnaitra >les >>>siens", "Gott mit uns", "the Holy Bible in each GI's pocket", &c.). >>> I hope to be a religious, peaceful and honnest man, but I'm not >>>sure that all my pitaras were good guys and I don't intend to defend them >>>blindly. Hence, I don't intend to be judged for their faults and, in the >>>actual case, for the English conquest of India! ... >>> >>> Regards, >>>Dominique >>> >>>* not in Antonius' sense ;) >>> >>> >>> >>>Dominique THILLAUD >>>Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France >>> > From yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP Wed Apr 8 00:54:33 1998 From: yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 09:54:33 +0900 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037547.23782.7465250090027134895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marianna Kropf wrote: >- One question I wish to answer: how far can we find references to a >kind of worship of navagraha in the ancient textual sources as it is >practiced nowadays? Do these references allow to say something on the >beginning of a tradition where the planetary deities are referred to as >(secondary) deities? >Any hints are welcome. A couple of years ago I wrote a paper on navagraha worship in Sanskrit texts under the tilte: `Planet Worship in the {\em Y\={a}j\~navalkyasm\d{r}ti}'. Unfortunately this papers is still waiting for publication. For your reference, I just cut and paste here a table of contents of my paper and titles of Sanskrit texts which I used (in LaTeX format). If you need further information I will write to you privately. I hope the paper is published in a year. Michio YANO, Kyoto Sangyo University yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (for private mails) ---------- Table of Contents of M.Yano's forthcoming paper ------ \section{Graha as Seizer} \section{Grahas as Heavenly Bodies} \subsection{Vedic texts} \subsection{Svarbh\={a}nu as an eclipse demon} \subsection{R\={a}hu and Ketu as grahas} \subsection{The oldest reference to planets} \subsection{Nine grahas without fixed order of reference} \subsection{Week day order of grahas} \section{Texts on Grahayaj\~na} \subsection{The Grahayaj\~na section of the G\d{r}hyas\={u}tras} \section{The Graha\'s\={a}nti of the Y\={a}j\~navalkyasm\d{r}ti\/} \subsection{The date of the Y\=aj\~navalkyasm\d{r}ti} \subsection{Contents of YS 1.295--308} Abbreviations of Sanskrit Texts used: AgniP: {\em Agnipur\={a}\d{n}a} AV(P): {\em Atharvaveda}, Paippal\=ada recension, digitalized by M.Witzel. AV(S): {\em Atharvaveda}, \'Saunaka recension AVP: {\em Atharvaveda-pari\'si\d{s}\d{t}ta}, ed.\,by G.M.\,Bolling and J.\, von Negelein, Leipzig 1909. \=AgnivGS: {\em \=Agnive\'syag\d{r}hyas\=utra} \=A\'svGP: {\em \=A\'sval\={a}yanag\d{r}hyapari\'si\d{s}\d{t}a}, (Bibliotheca Indica ed.) \=A\'svGSB: {\em \=A\'sval\={a}yanag\d{r}hyas\=utrabh\={a}\d{s}ya}, (Adyar Lib.\,ed.\,Appendix) BY: {\em B\d{r}hady\={a}tr\={a}}, ed.\,by D.\,Pingree, Government of Tamil Nadu 1972. BaudhGSS: {\em Baudh\={a}yanag\d{r}hya\'se\d{s}as\=utra} BaudhDS: {\em Baudh\={a}yana\-dharma\-s\={u}tra} BhavPU: {\em Bhavi\d{s}yapur\={a}\d{n}a-Uttara} GP:{\em Garu\d{d}apur\={a}\d{n}a} HGSS: {\em Hira\d{n}iyake\'sig\d{r}hya\'se\d{s}as\=utra} JGS: {\em Jaiminig\d{r}hyas\=utra} K\=athS: {\em K\={a}thakasa\d{m}kara\d{n}a} Mbh: {\em Mah\={a}bh\={a}rata} MGS: {\em M\={a}navag\d{r}hyas\=utra} MP: {\em Matsyapur\={a}\d{n}a} NM: {\em N\={\i}lamatapur\={a}\d{n}a} PadmaP: {\em Padmapur\={a}\d{n}a} RV: {\em \d{R}gvedasa\d{m}hit\={a}} \'S\=antiK: {\em \'S\={a}ntikalpa} VD: {\em Vi\d{s}\d{n}udharmottarapur\={a}\d{n}a} VGS: {\em Vaikh\={a}nasa\-g\d{r}hya\-s\={u}tra} VYJ: {\em V\d{r}ddhayavanaj\={a}taka\/}, ed. by D.\,Pingree, Gaekward Oriental Series, Nos.\,162 and 163 (1976). YJ: {\em Yavanaj\=ataka}, ed.\,by D.\,Pingree, Harvard Oriental Series No.\,48, 2 vols.\,1987 YS: {\em Y\={a}j\~navalkyasm\d{r}ti} YY: {\em Yogay\=atr\=a}, ed. by Ramacandra Jha, Darbanga 1986. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 8 10:05:45 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 11:05:45 +0100 Subject: [Announcement] Samaveda available. (fwd) Message-ID: <161227037554.23782.12721861425226845833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 16:47:11 -0800 (PST) From: Anshuman Pandey Subject: Samaveda available. Hello all, I just wanted to let you know that the Kauthuma Samhita of the Samaveda is available in CSX and Postscript formats from: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~apandey/texts The actual source text is encoded in CS/CSX, however the document has TeX control sequences which enable it to be typeset using ITRANS and LaTeX. The Postscript document is a completely formatted version of the source file. [...] Regards, Anshuman Pandey ----- I have added a link to this site from the INDOLOGY web pages (Virtual Archive of e-Texts). - DW From bvi at AFN.ORG Wed Apr 8 16:34:24 1998 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 12:34:24 -0400 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037561.23782.1434051405681571425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:40 AM 4/7/98 EDT, you wrote: >>Ganesan wrote... > >> From the day Mr. Bhadriah Mallampalli started writing his >> hypothesis/theories on Vedas, I was wondering. > >> Astonished to hear that one can talk of Vedas without knowing >> Sanskrit!! > >To say that one has to know Sanskrit to talk of, or understand vedas is an >insult to every other language, also insult to every other living being. To >understand veda all you need is identify bRhaspati in oneself. Here is one reference from the UpaniZads that sheds some light on the qualification for actually understanding the knowledge contained in the Vedas. yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau tasyaite kathita hy arthAH prakAZante mahAtmanaH "Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed." (ZvetAZvatara UpaniSad 6.23) Chris Beetle From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Apr 8 20:47:07 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 13:47:07 -0700 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037565.23782.16391741422782214627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I remind some of our list members that INDOLOGY is meant to be a scholarly forum. Although mystical insights and experiences are perfectly valid, they would surely be more appropriate on a list devoted to such a perspective. Such a list could be called INNER INDOLOGY, HIGHER INDOLOGY, or REAL INDOLOGY, if that reflects the beliefs of those who would wish to participate in it, but a scholarly discussion needs to remain within certain boundaries. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 12:34 PM 4/8/98 -0400, Chris Beetle wrote: >At 03:40 AM 4/7/98 EDT, you wrote: >>>Ganesan wrote... >> >>> From the day Mr. Bhadriah Mallampalli started writing his >>> hypothesis/theories on Vedas, I was wondering. >> >>> Astonished to hear that one can talk of Vedas without knowing >>> Sanskrit!! >> >>To say that one has to know Sanskrit to talk of, or understand vedas is an >>insult to every other language, also insult to every other living being. To >>understand veda all you need is identify bRhaspati in oneself. > >Here is one reference from the UpaniZads that sheds some light on the >qualification for actually understanding the knowledge contained in the Vedas. > >yasya deve para bhaktir >yatha deve tatha gurau >tasyaite kathita hy arthAH >prakAZante mahAtmanaH > >"Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and >the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically >revealed." (ZvetAZvatara UpaniSad 6.23) > >Chris Beetle From nozawa at LA.NUMAZU-CT.AC.JP Wed Apr 8 04:54:53 1998 From: nozawa at LA.NUMAZU-CT.AC.JP (Nozawa Masanobu) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 13:54:53 +0900 Subject: Vaishesikasutra E-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037551.23782.10964034834722047046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> jonathan silk: >Perhaps I misunderstood this, but I downloaded the Vaishesikasutra E-text >and tried to read it with a CSX font, without success (I mean it was >garbled). Is a CS font different from a CSX font? > >Jonathan Silk >SILK at wmich.edu I'm sorry to be slow in answering. Please read the file with CSUtopia or CS Bitstream, and, I hope, it will read well. Nozawa Masanobu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 8 14:21:11 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 15:21:11 +0100 Subject: Vaishesikasutra E-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037556.23782.9835134143378455015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, jonathan silk wrote: > Perhaps I misunderstood this, but I downloaded the Vaishesikasutra E-text > and tried to read it with a CSX font, without success (I mean it was > garbled). Is a CS font different from a CSX font? I set Netscape to use a CSX PS font (options, general preferences, fonts), and pointed it at the VS, and the text came up with all the proper diacritics etc. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. First Rule of History: History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 8 14:22:32 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 15:22:32 +0100 Subject: information solicited In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980402091017.354f6e72@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227037558.23782.9039166983499756908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: > I shall be grateful if any member on the list can help me with the details > of the publisher of the following title: > > Watt, George, A. 1889-96. A Dictionary of Economic Products of India, 6 > vols. Calcutta. This work is still available in a reprint. We recently bought a copy for the Wellcome library. You can look up the details in our catalogue by telnet: wihm.ucl.ac.uk All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. First Rule of History: History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 8 14:28:42 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 15:28:42 +0100 Subject: gender and Grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037559.23782.18312852831715426538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There's a delightful and (deliberately?) very funny discussion of grammatical gender in Patanjali's Mahabhasya. It's a very long time since I read it, but I recall him arguing that something is feminine in grammatical gender as long as it has breasts and long hair. But why are these features not seen in a bed (kha.tvaa, f.). Answer: they are present, but are invisible. :-) I've always slept more contentedly since reading that argument. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. First Rule of History: History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other. From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Wed Apr 8 19:41:43 1998 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 15:41:43 -0400 Subject: Plants, animals, and Humans In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980408163424.008526b4@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227037563.23782.10463682841341418115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in knowing ancient Indian views (Vedic and Upanishads period) on the relationship of humans, animals, and plants. As I understand, animals, humans and plants were considered a part of "prakriti" (nature) with inter-dependence and distinctive roles for each other. Plants were also considered to have life with several senses (hearing, touch, etc.). The role of plants to provide food to animals and humans was also obvious. There are several hymn in Vedas on the worship of plants. Is there any article/book on the topic, especially in view of science. Alok Kumar Department of Physics State University of New York Oswego, NY 13126. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 9 01:01:03 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 18:01:03 -0700 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037569.23782.7691461452102625959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan says: <> I very much doubt this; my experience with the sArvavibhaktitkam style is that they rigidly adhere to the rule of prathama followed by dvitIyA, go onto tr*tIyA... and end it with "sambOdhana prathamA". The best proof I can see of this lies in a poem that was sent to me some time ago by Dr Paliath NArendran. This zlOka authored by Melpattur Narayana Bhattatiri starts off as "kr*SNo rakSatu mAm" and illustrates all the vibhakti endings of "kr*SNa" and ends with "he kr*SNa! tubhyam nama:" . This is really peculiar,since in Kerala , the rUpAvatAram was authored by dharmakIrti was used as a standard grammatical text placed sambOdhana prathama after prathamA and ends the zabda declension with the saptamI. The fact that a formidable scholar like Narayana Bhattatiri did not tamper with this( inspite of a different local tradition) suggests that the rule is sacrosanct and cannot be violated. I therefore do not think that the I-kAram in the ending( suggesting prathamA vibhakti) was the way dIkshitar intended the kr*ti to be sung; it should be the shortened i-kAra form. This seems to be an example of incorrect transmission. <> I doubt this since : 1.the correct sambOdhana prathamA should be mAta:( can become mAtar.h) but making mAta: or mAtar.h "mAtrE" is too much of a jump. 2. mAtrE is the caturthi of mAtr* and makes sense in the sentence. 3. If the sambOdhana prathamA is used here, again the correct order of the vibhaktis gets violated. This would then have the same status as that of the Paraj kr*ti. >> I remember reading some place that Dikshitar composed this krti >>in the raga Paraju, >Well, mythology can be used in myriad ways. But we must remember that >Pharas is mentioned even in the cilappatikAram (if its identification >with the takkeSi paN is correct), so it is not all that foreign to >Carnatic music. In any case, UttukkADu venkaTasubbaiyar, a pre-dIkshitar composer has also composed in Pharas. May I ask which composition of UttukADar are you refering to? SambamURti says very clearly that Paraj is a dEsya rAga ; it was borrowed from the north but may have had a counterpart in the south which nearly matched it. All the kr*tis listed by him start off from the time of dIkshitar, tyAgarajA and zyAma zAstri. I therefore think that UttukADar may have composed in a carnatic raga that was close to Paraju but not Paraju itself.( like jhinjhoTi and senjurutti). Of course the identification with takkeSi paN is also debatable and I'm setting that aside. I therefore believe that dIkSitar was the one who used the paraju rAga as is now known to us. REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU Wed Apr 8 22:09:19 1998 From: srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 18:09:19 -0400 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037567.23782.9376922425067171924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar wrote: from the saurAshTrArNa mantra for the sun, to ketuM ghRNvan for ketu. A lot of print editions show it as saurA.sTrArNa emphasizing the rAga name (saurA.sTra), but saurA.sTArNa is the correct form... the mantra for sUrya - hrIm ghRNi sUrya Adityom - is a.sTa arNa or eight-syllabled. Also, the mantra for ketu is ketuM krNvan... TS 7.4.20.1 goes as "om ketuM krNvan aketave pes'o maryA apes'ase..." There is some doubt if the compositions on rAhu (smarAmyaham sadA rAhum, in ramAmanoharI) and ketu (mahAsuram ketum, in cAmaram) were originally by muttusvAmi dIkshitar, or if they were added by a later, anonymous composer, to an older set of seven, for the sake of completeness. The original seven would then be sapta-vAra (not navagraha) compositions. Most probably, the doubt itself arose only due to the fact that the Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini (SSP) of Subbarama Dikshitar - in many ways the definitive work on Muttusvami Dikshitar's compositions - does not include the rAhu/kEtu compositions. However, in this century, within the "immediate" Dikshitar tradition itself, the compositions have been seen as an integral set i.e. as navagraha compositions. As for well-known musicians, only vINa DhanammAl, around the turn of the century, knew all of these kritis and included them in her performances... she seems to have considered/ rendered these kritis as a set of 9 kritis. There is also some talk of manuscript evidence in this regard, but none of the contemporary Indian musicologists seem to have the requisite training to say much about this. Are you thinking only of Srivatsa here ? Since it seems to me that the problem is more of scholars not having all the necessary access ! The controversy over the compositions on rAhu and ketu presumes that the seven others are genuinely muttusvAmi dIkshitar's compositions. Now, although nobody seems to have brought this up in the Carnatic music world, the composition on Sukra (SrI Sukra bhagavantam, in Paras) is quite problematic. The song begins in the accusative case, but shifts to a vocative case (hE Sukra bhagavan mAm ASu pAlaya, vRshatulAdhISa), and reverts to the accusative case (daitya hitopadeSam, keSava kaTAkshaikanetram) immediately after. This happens quite abruptly in the middle of the same sentence in the anupallavi, which sounds very unprofessional for a composer of muttusvAmi dIkshitar's calibre. This is quite a flimsy reason for doubting the authorship of this composition (I am reading between your lines here). First of all, the phrase is only "daitya hitopades'a" in many renditions that I have heard...and in the SSP, in both the original 1904 edition in Telugu script and in the Tamil script edition put out by the Music Academy, Madras. So there is no change in the middle of the "musical" sentence. In the madhyamakAla, which is a self-contained unit in 1 Avarta of the tALa and which connects the anupallavi back to the pallavi, he reverts to the accusative... seems quite fine as a general procedure... questioning the authorship of the composition based on just this issue seems uncalled for. [We do know about a complete example - the Ahiri composition of the kamalAmbA navAvaraNa - where he goes thru all the 8 vibhaktis... there he goes thru the 8 vibhaktis in this 9th composition after completing 8 other compositions, each one completely in one vibhakti... so, yes, there are a lot of "valid" reasons there.] Maybe, you can entertain doubts about just the first line of the anupallavi... but for the authorship, you cannot ignore the absolutely compelling evidence of the texts and the tradition, and the musical/textual content of the kriti itself. First off, the SSP gives it clearly as a composition of MuttusvAmi Dikshitar... it should be remembered that Subbarama Dikshitar doesn't hesitate to introduce his own compositions, or mention his composing abilities, or that of his other ancestors, in the SSP with the proper attribution... so there is no necessity to think of someone else's authorship within their family itself. Secondly, there is near unanimity ( ;-) ) on the authorship of this composition among the entire tradition. Thirdly, and most importantly, if one looks at the music and the text in this composition carefully, and look at it from a Carnatic music background, you can be assured that no other person could have composed it. The long drawn out kriti, the exquisite music, the phraseology, the astrological/zodiacal lore, are the clinchers... you cannot ignore this essentially "adhikArabheda" style argument. -Srini. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 9 02:01:13 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 19:01:13 -0700 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037571.23782.10938798163747097778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > There is also some talk of manuscript evidence in this regard, but > none of the contemporary Indian musicologists seem to have the > requisite training to say much about this. > >Are you thinking only of Srivatsa here ? >Since it seems to me that the problem is more of scholars >not having all the necessary access ! Mainly him, but mine was also a general statement about musicologists in India today (except for a very small number of people). > > The controversy over the compositions on rAhu and ketu presumes that the > seven others are genuinely muttusvAmi dIkshitar's compositions. Now, > although nobody seems to have brought this up in the Carnatic music > world, the composition on Sukra (SrI Sukra bhagavantam, in Paras) is > quite problematic. The song begins in the accusative case, but shifts to > a vocative case (hE Sukra bhagavan mAm ASu pAlaya, vRshatulAdhISa), and > reverts to the accusative case (daitya hitopadeSam, keSava > kaTAkshaikanetram) immediately after. This happens quite abruptly in the > middle of the same sentence in the anupallavi, which sounds very > unprofessional for a composer of muttusvAmi dIkshitar's calibre. > >This is quite a flimsy reason for doubting the authorship of >this composition (I am reading between your lines here). > Well, yes and no. I'm more inclined to doubt only the current form of the anupallavi, instead of the entire composition. >First of all, the phrase is only "daitya hitopades'a" in many >renditions that I have heard...and in the SSP, in both the >original 1904 edition in Telugu script and in the Tamil script >edition put out by the Music Academy, Madras. So there is no >change in the middle of the "musical" sentence. I seem to remember renditions from Madurai Mani Iyer and S. Ramanathan as daitya hitopadeSam, but if SSP says otherwise, fine, that is Aptavacana. And yes, musical criteria and grammar may lead to different conclusions. If the only argument about the kRtis on rAhu and ketu is that they are not included in the SSP, that sounds valid enough to me. However, the authenticity of these two compositions has also been recently doubted, purely on the basis of mistakes in language usage, especially in the one on ketu. But I couldn't find any obvious errors. Moreover, if the presence of jyotisha/mantra lore is evidence of dIkshitar's authorship, then the compositions on rAhu and ketu seem to pass the test. So, if these two were not composed by muttusvAmi dIkshitar, we cannot say that a later composer was not learned in jyotisha and mantra SAstras. I guess the status of the compositions on rAhu, ketu and Sukra mirrors that of the demons and their guru! Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Vaidix at AOL.COM Thu Apr 9 04:03:06 1998 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 00:03:06 -0400 Subject: RGVedic AryAs Message-ID: <161227037579.23782.12428755065347076080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote.. > May I remind some of our list members that INDOLOGY is meant to be a > scholarly forum. Although mystical insights and experiences are perfectly > valid, they would surely be more appropriate on a list devoted to such a > perspective. Such a list could be called INNER INDOLOGY, HIGHER INDOLOGY, > or REAL INDOLOGY, if that reflects the beliefs of those who would wish to > participate in it, but a scholarly discussion needs to remain within certain > boundaries. I agree with Luis Reimann. Mystical subjects must not be brought into this listserv. However I point out that there is nothing mystical about vedic symbols such as bRhaspati &c. Identifying these symbols is as easy or as difficult as identifying musical notes like sa, re, ga &c. While the art of music is still preseved, the art of identifying Vedic symbols was lost many centuries ago and the subject has become confined to texts. Even if one were told how to, it would take at least a few years of study and observation to identify the symbols, and how they make up the thought process, how they help in pronouncing syllables &c. The start up time is quite substantial, but once the basics are clear, the subject offers exciting possibilities for research. No doubt there is also some personal risk involved because it is a mindsport and non-different from yoga. By the way being able to identify vedic symbols does not make a person a yajJavalkya just as knowing musical notes does not make one a subbulakSmi. I don't mean there will be enough scope for mediocrity ;-) but that is just a beginning. There is a lot of solid work to be done beyond learning basics. If there is any mystery or mysticism, it is just this: We humans are able to write emails and lifeless objects can't. Other than I dont see any mysticism in Veda. According to zatapatha brAhmaNa, the word 'RSi' is derived from the root 'RS' meaning 'to rub' . That means the vedic RSis had rubbed themselves against hard facts of reality to and saw the formulae, not through mysticism. In any case, all the arguments I gave till now about veda (as part of abstracts) and those that I plan to issue, can be intensely criticized by psychologists and neurologists (if there are any on this list). I am ready to face them. I doubt if linguists could do much regarding this subject for the moment. They might enter at a later stage after many decades when the gaps are bridged.. Also Vedic interpretation is a proactive subject high in speculation, where as linguistics as I see in this forum is mostly a post mortem of facts based on rules like 'kavi prayogam vyakaraNam', mostly looking for precedents or past research. So there is a big cultural difference that presents a contrast. I can't blame anyone that Veda needs such a hard sell. I leave it upto the list administrator to decide the matter. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 9 03:40:35 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 08:40:35 +0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037575.23782.15977633248491319423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:09 PM 4/8/98 -0400, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: >Maybe, you can entertain doubts about just the first line of the >anupallavi... but for the authorship, you cannot ignore the absolutely >compelling evidence of the texts and the tradition, and the >musical/textual content of the kriti itself. > I am not able to follow what is wrong with the first line of anupallavi. vArAhi who is danDini (chief of army staff) of Lalitha is being described as sUkarAnanA. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 9 03:40:38 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 08:40:38 +0500 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037573.23782.18187795756519485537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:01 PM 4/8/98 PDT, S.Krishna wrote: >I very much doubt this; my experience with the sArvavibhaktitkam style >is that they rigidly adhere to the rule of prathama followed by dvitIyA, >go onto tr*tIyA... and end it with "sambOdhana prathamA". The best proof >I can see of this lies in a poem that was sent to me some time ago by Dr >Paliath NArendran. This zlOka authored by Melpattur Narayana Bhattatiri >starts off as "kr*SNo rakSatu mAm" and illustrates all the vibhakti >endings of "kr*SNa" and ends with "he kr*SNa! tubhyam nama:" . Somebody has followed a pattern rigidly does not mean that muddusvAmi dIkSitar (sorry, but that is his name as given in SSP) is obliged to follow it. muddusvAmi dIkSitar was breaking many traditions of his time. He composed mainly in sanskrit when most of the composers including his father and brothers composed mainly in telugu. He composed many kritis without anupallavi. Further sambOdhana at the end for a slOkA comes naturally and is a matter of convenience. For a kriti it may not be necessary. regards, sarma. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 9 03:51:45 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 08:51:45 +0500 Subject: information solicited Message-ID: <161227037577.23782.2091519967697500706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominique: Many thanks for the information. I got several replies. I could get the original publisher, i.e. Superintendent, Government Printing, Calcutta. Regards, Bh.K. At 15:22 08/04/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Bh. Krishnamurti wrote: > >> I shall be grateful if any member on the list can help me with the details >> of the publisher of the following title: >> >> Watt, George, A. 1889-96. A Dictionary of Economic Products of India, 6 >> vols. Calcutta. > >This work is still available in a reprint. We recently bought a copy for >the Wellcome library. You can look up the details in our catalogue by >telnet: wihm.ucl.ac.uk > >All the best, >Dominik > >-- >Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 >Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ > the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk >Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk >London NW1 2BE, England. > >First Rule of History: > History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other. > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Apr 9 08:11:42 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 09:11:42 +0100 Subject: [Announce] Ramayana in devanagari on Internet (fwd) Message-ID: <161227037581.23782.15831344263326075494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:33:39 -0400 From: Shree Subject: Ramayana in devanagari on Internet namaskaar, Valmiki Ramayana text is now online as devanagari web pages in XDVNG fonts (devanagari fonts available for UNIX, PC and MAC - based on Velthuis dvng font face) or as devanagari postscript files at http://www.hscc.net/ramayana/ These are available for selection on a chapter by chapter basis. This Devanagari version of the Ramayana is based on Prof. John Smith's modified CSX version of the original encoding by Prof. Muneo Tokunaga of Kyoto, Japan. These pages would not be possible without Prof. Tokunaga's monumental effort in encoding the whole RAmAyaNa of the Baroda Critical Edition. My sincere gratitude to both of them for their permission to post this devanagari version of Ramayana on the Internet. I request you to view the pages and offer suggestions for improvement. Please forward the information to others who might be interested. Thanks & Regards, Shree ----------------------------------------------------------- Shree Devi Kumar email: shree at usa.net satsangh: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8891/ bhajans: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4637/ From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Thu Apr 9 13:21:24 1998 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 09:21:24 -0400 Subject: Plants, animals, and Humans In-Reply-To: <352CB7FC.FDE76D4A@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227037588.23782.1871086854345734753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is O.K. to provide a detailed reply to any question. Those not interested can simply use delete command and go to the next e-mail. Alok Kumar SUNY Oswego On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Surya P. Mittal wrote: > Please visit the web-site: > http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch > Use the following selections in subject approach: > "Sanskrit Studies" + "Animal and veterinary Sciences" > Proceed to "SEARCH" button > "Sanskrit Studies" + "Environmental Sciences" > Proceed to "SEARCH" button > "Sanskrit Studies" + "Botany" > Proceed to "SEARCH" button > > The following selections may not be of direct interest, but .... > "Sanskrit Studies" + "History of Pure and applied sciences" > Proceed to "SEARCH" button > > In the TITLE input box : > "*ved*" in combination with "*plant*" > This I am afraid may list most items of Ayurveda, but a few > of your interest as well. > > Hope the list members will appreciate my this style instead of the > the previous detailed emails, which were objected to earlier for > being long, boring and useless for many. > > If any of you prefer the previous style, do please inform me > accordingly. > > Surya P. Mittal > e-mailto:surya at pobox.com > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From: > D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053 > A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067 > Najafgarh Road Orders ->E-mailto:ordproc at dkagencies.com > New Delhi - 110 059. E-mailto:custserv at dkagencies.com > > Our Website : http://www.dkagencies.com > Online Search : http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Alok Kumar wrote: > > > > I am interested in knowing ancient Indian views (Vedic and > > Upanishads period) on the relationship of humans, animals, > > and plants. As I understand, animals, humans and plants were > > considered a part of "prakriti" (nature) with inter-dependence > > and distinctive roles for each other. Plants were also > > considered to have life with several senses (hearing, touch, > > etc.). The role of plants to provide food to animals and > > humans was also obvious. There are several hymn in Vedas on > > the worship of plants. Is there any article/book on the topic, > > especially in view of science. > > > > Alok Kumar > > Department of Physics > > State University of New York > > Oswego, NY 13126. > From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Apr 9 14:02:35 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 10:02:35 -0400 Subject: Bibliographer post (Bibliography of Asian Studies) Message-ID: <161227037592.23782.5782078540589281228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ASSOCIATE EDITOR FOR SOUTH ASIA (PART-TIME) ASSOCIATION FOR ASIAN STUDIES, INC. BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ASIAN STUDIES The Association for Asian Studies, Inc. seeks an energetic bibliographer, librarian and/or scholar to compile, input, and edit bibliographical entries for Western-language journal articles, chapters in edited volumes, and conference proceedings, etc. in all academic disciplines and subject areas concerning South Asia (Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, the Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka) for inclusion in the Bibliography of Asian Studies (BAS). Qualifications: The successful applicant will be expected to have (a) a subject knowledge or background in one or more aspects of South Asian studies (in the humanities or the social sciences strongly preferred), (b) an awareness of the elements of bibliographical work or cataloging, (c) ready access to one or more research libraries in the United States with up-to-date holdings of English-language periodicals published in India and elsewhere in South Asia as well as current imprints from western Europe and North America that deal with South Asia, (d) familiarity with basic computer applications, including the ability to enter bibliographical data into an electronic database, (e) the ability to work efficiently and effectively on both an independent basis and with the editor of the BAS. Some prior bibliographical and/or library-related experience is desirable. Familiarity with Macintosh is preferred but not required. This is a half-time (20 hours/week) position. Working hours are flexible. Salary: Competitive. Starting Date: As soon as possible. The search will continue until the position is filled. Applications will be considered without regard to gender, race, color, creed, age, national or ethnic origin, or disability. Letter of application including a resume and three or more references should be sent directly to: Dr. Anna Leon Shulman Editor, Bibliography of Asian Studies 9225 Limestone Place College Park, Maryland 20740-3943 Tel. and Fax: 301-935-5614 E-mail: aslshulman at aol.com From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 9 15:42:48 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 10:42:48 -0500 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar Message-ID: <161227037594.23782.2292140545669717724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MuttusvAmi Dishitar is the right spelling, I think. His Tamil forefathers wrote in Telugu to get Telugu Nayak court patronage. MuttusvAmi Dikshitar's descendent, Subbaraamar writes in SSP(telugu edition) as MuddusvAmi just to fit with the Telugu custom. As MuttusvAmi Dikshitar lived in Tamil country, the name MuttusvAmi should get high priority compared to MuddusvAmi. 17th/18th century Karnatic musicians, mainly from Tamil lands, chose to write in Telugu because the ruling chieftains were Nayaks. Nayaks were Balijas or toTTiyas. The Nayaks usurped power at the right moment when the Vijayanagar kingdom was in decline. The Nayaks were mercenaries, not from cultured social background. The focus of Vijayanagar had always been Kaveri delta. (Trichy & Tanjore) Chieftains get culture, music etc., after a few generations. See B. Stein, Vijanagara, Cambridge univ. press. The Telugu Nayak era is considered a period of heavy decline for Tamil literature. Kirthanas &c. flourished. In a mixture of telugu, tamil, sanskrit. May be sangitam is great, Yes, but many times sAhityam is very poor. The literary excellence is not that great usually. Also, the Telugu period in Tamil Nadu flourished music of erotic nature, devadasi tradition etc., This is from Nayak courts' aspirations, A. K. Ramanujan, When the God is a customer: Telugu courtesan songs, Univ. of california. For Nayak's meager origins, see Shulman & Sanjay Subrahmanyam. What a decline from classical sangam poetry, kuRaL, cilambu, tevaram, naalaayiram, kamban, etc., (2nd century BCE - 12th centuries) days to the tamil kiirthanam days (a heady mixture of erotic, different languages, slangs, etc..)! During the eclectic days of Telugu chiefs, the telugu kiirthanam evolved from earlier tamil musical traditions (paaNar of sangam, cilambu, pancha marabu in adiyaarkku nallaar, mainly the Tevaram Othuvaar tradition, araiyar sevai in srirangam etc.,) Nayak chieftaincy is like Texan Cowboys becoming millionaires when Oil was found :-) It took really giants like Ramalinga Vallalaar, Bharatiyaar, U. V. Saminataiyar, Arumuga Navalar, Maraimalai Adigal to rediscover and start a renaissance of Tamil letters and music. Regards, N. Ganesan From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Apr 9 18:25:25 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 11:25:25 -0700 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities In-Reply-To: <35251E7D.4D79DFE2@theol.unibe.ch> Message-ID: <161227037601.23782.17330670390170645967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that Steven Markel of the Los Angeles Museum has worked extensively on the iconography of the navagrahas, and has published or will shortly publish a book on the subject. My recollection is that it is being published by Brill, but I'm not sure of this. R. Salomon On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Marianna Kropf wrote: > Dear members of Indology group > > > In the process of my actual work about the ritual worship of the nine > planetary deities referred to as 'navagraha', I came across several > 'white spots' in the material I have collected till now. > I mainly focussed on the worship/ ritual propitiation of one or all of > the grahas, as I saw it in Shaiva temples of Tamil Nadu: Aims and > contexts of the graha worship, the ritual guidelines followed by the > priests (including mantras, stotras, namavalis and indications for > different types of rituals adressing the grahas), ikonographical > appearance of the grahas, backgrounds of worship given by priests and > devotees, historical data on the temples. > Beside temples that are well known and selected by devotees for the > worship of all the grahas, there exist elsewhere circles of nine > different temples each one especially associated with one of the grahas > (as it is the case for nine temples situated around Kumbakonam). The > grahas may be depicted as a collection of their respective nine murtis > arranged on one and the same platform or one or the other of the > planetary deities is given its own shrine within the temple compound. I > am very clear about the very fact of a close relation between astrology > and navagraha worship, a detailed study of the former is not part of my > investigation, wherease I want to stress the later aspect. > > a) TEXTUAL REFERENCES: > In this context I need help concerning textual references: > [to point it out very clearly: I am not looking for jyotis.a sources] > Who knows of passages out of the Veda Samhitas, which adress the > navagraha (being at that time only seven) as deities? Who can provide > me with references to graha worship given in the puranas? In the agamic > canons? Are there early S_ilpa texts that describe ikonographical > details and material to be used for navagraha murtis? > - One question I wish to answer: how far can we find references to a > kind of worship of navagraha in the ancient textual sources as it is > practiced nowadays? Do these references allow to say something on the > beginning of a tradition where the planetary deities are referred to as > (secondary) deities? > Any hints are welcome. > > 2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: > Who can provide me with information on further temples especially > connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, > there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares > (which one?!), ... > - it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the > grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by > devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomen. > > Thank your for your time and cooperation > > yours > > Marianna > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 9 18:53:35 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 11:53:35 -0700 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037605.23782.14844981055795473098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna writes: .... ><sentence which uses the dative case - SrI mAtre namaste cinmAtre.>> > >I doubt this since : > >1.the correct sambOdhana prathamA should be mAta:( can become mAtar.h) >but making mAta: or mAtar.h "mAtrE" is too much of a jump. >2. mAtrE is the caturthi of mAtr* and makes sense in the sentence. The sentence in question is - SrImAtrE namastE, cinmAtrE, sevita ramA harikA vidhAtrE. (SrI)mAtrE is the correct dative form for the root (SrI)mAtR. However, the root for (cin)mAtrE is not (cin)mAtR, but cinmAtrA, which gets modified to mAtrE in the sambodhana (as in sItA -> sItE). The implied reference is to the fourth name in the lalitA sahasranAma, cidagni-kuNDa-sambhUtA. The mUkapancaSati also begins kAraNa-para-cid-rUpA. Usually in the SAkta literature, brahma/Siva is san-mAtra, while Sakti is cin-mAtrA, and Siva-Sakty-aikya is Ananda. But the upanishadic brahman is also sac-cid-Ananda, and in other kRtis, dIkshitar refers to Siva as sac-cid-Ananda-mAtram, using the dvitIyA vibhakti form of mAtraH. >3. If the sambOdhana prathamA is used here, again the correct order of >the vibhaktis gets violated. This would then have the same status as >that of the Paraj kr*ti. > Not really, for two reasons. 1. The sambodhana usually requires another vibhakti (most often the dative) in the course of the sentence, except when the emphasis shifts from the object/person being called, to the caller (e.g. kRshNa! mAM pAlaya). Even in the nArayaNa bhaTTattiri example you quote, the sentence is "kRshNa! tubhyam namaH," which involves the dative form tubhyam, if not kRshNAya. Note that "kRshNAya tubhyam namaH" would be an equally valid construction, with an implied sambodhana in it. On the other hand, in the Ahiri kRti, if we read brahmamaya prakASini, etc., using the sambodhana, there is no verb to go with it. It is not like dIkshitar to introduce a sambodhana and leave it hanging, without completing the sentence. 2. The symbolism in the navAvaraNa kRtis is that of the SrIvidyA, where the bindu at the center is the source of the universe. In this set of compositions, dIkshitar first follows the samhAra-krama, going inwards along the order of eight vibhaktis. Each kRti describes the various cakras, starting from the bhUpura to the trikONa. The ninth composition, in Ahiri, describes the bindu, the innermost cakra in the SrIyantra (SrIpura bindu madhyastha ...). As the bindu is considered the ultimate source of everything, dIkshitar indicates this by using all the vibhaktis in the course of this composition. This is sRshTi-krama in a nutshell. This is also implied in the words kAdi-hAdi-sAdi-mantra-rUpiNyAH, a reference to the SrIvidyA mantra, which is usually interpreted in terms of sRshTi-krama in the samayAcAra. So there is a very valid reason why all the vibhaktis are used in the Ahiri kRti. There is no such symbolism for the Pharaj kRti on Sukra. Vidyasankar ps.1. to Sarma - the doubt about the anupallavi was not with respect to the Ahiri navAvaraNa song, but with respect to the Pharas song on Sukra. ps.2. to Ganesan and Sarma - It is very difficult to separate out Tamil/Kannada/Telugu elements in the Dikshitar families. The immediate family of Muttusvami Dikshitar hailed from Virinchipuram near Kanchipuram, where there is heavy Telugu influence. The family might have well been originally Telugu speakers. Govinda Dikshita, the father of Venkatamakhi, was a Kannada speaking Brahmin belonging to the Hoysala Karnataka group, who migrated to the Tanjavur region. Ramasvami Dishitar, Muttusvami's father, studied music with a descendent of Venkatamakhi. Syama Sastri, the other famous composer, belonged to the Telugu speaking dharmakartA family of the Kanchi Kamakshi temple. There was considerable inter-marriage among Kannada and Telugu Brahmin families which settled in Tamil Nadu during late Vijayanagara times. Their common Sanskritic heritage may have been more important to them than the other languages, and whether the correct spelling should be muttusvAmi or muddusvAmi is a moot point, although Telugu was certainly more fashionable then than Tamil. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Apr 9 16:44:12 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 12:44:12 -0400 Subject: REVISED JOB POSTING (Bibliography of Asian Studies) Message-ID: <161227037596.23782.13933025790098421650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anyone interested in this position, who might want to be employed for *more than half-time*, should contact me. We have grant monies to support more of the same work up to an additional half-time (for a total of thirty to forty hours per week), for someone who could take this position and work here with me at Columbia University Libraries. David Magier South Asia Librarian Columbia University Libraries 212-854-8046 212-854-3834 fax magier at columbia.edu > ASSOCIATE EDITOR FOR SOUTH ASIA (PART-TIME) > ASSOCIATION FOR ASIAN STUDIES, INC. > BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ASIAN STUDIES > > The Association for Asian Studies, Inc. seeks an energetic bibliographer, > librarian and/or scholar to compile, input, and edit bibliographical entries for > Western-language journal articles, chapters in edited volumes, and > conference proceedings, etc. in all academic disciplines and subject areas > concerning South Asia (Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, the > Maldives, > Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka) for inclusion in the Bibliography of Asian > Studies (BAS). > > Qualifications: The successful applicant will be expected to have (a) a > subject knowledge or background in one or more aspects of South Asian > studies (in the humanities or the social sciences strongly preferred), (b) an > awareness of the elements of bibliographical work or cataloging, (c) ready > access to one or more research libraries in the United States with > up-to-date holdings of English-language periodicals published in India and > elsewhere in South Asia as well as current imprints from western Europe > and > North America that deal with South Asia, (d) familiarity with basic computer > applications, including the ability to enter bibliographical data into an > electronic database, (e) the ability to work efficiently and effectively on > both an independent basis and with the editor of the BAS. Some prior > bibliographical and/or library-related experience is desirable. Familiarity > with Macintosh is preferred but not required. This is a half-time (20 > hours/week) position. Working hours are flexible. > > Salary: Competitive. > > Starting Date: As soon as possible. The search will continue until the > position is filled. Applications will be considered without regard to gender, > race, color, creed, age, national or ethnic origin, or disability. > > Letter of application including a resume and three or more references > should be sent directly to: David Magier South Asia Librarian Columbia University 304 International Affairs 420 West 118 Street New York, NY 10027 USA 212-854-8046 212-854-3834 magier at columbia.edu From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 9 18:29:20 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 13:29:20 -0500 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar Message-ID: <161227037603.23782.216381328044450486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: [...] >muttusvAmi dIkSitar is alright. [...] Happy to hear this. DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >Krishna and Godavari deltas were already in the hands of Vijayanagar >empire. These are richer than the Kaveri delta. Later history of Vijayanagara. Attention is heavily focussed on Kaveri deltas. NOT Krishna & Godavari deltas. According to B. Stein summarizing decades of work on Vijayanaga by 100s of historians. (Vijayanagara, Cambridge UP, 1989) DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >But what about the unreserved patronage of maharastrian >kings of TanjAvur for telugu. This you cannot ascribe it to partiality to >the mother tongue. Just continuing the courtly idiom established by Nayaks, more than the Marathis' love for Telugu. New Marathi chiefs maintain the status quo. For a century or so, Nayaks gave patronage to Telugu in their courts. So, the teachers etc. are deeply into Telugu in the court. For Maratha rulers, their priorities, dangers are elsewhere. Few children who get trained in Telugu, write in Telugu. I hardly see Marathis writing Telugu patams/kiirthanams nowadays. Regards, N. Ganesan From roheko at MSN.COM Thu Apr 9 12:12:19 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 14:12:19 +0200 Subject: HELP Message-ID: <161227037583.23782.12862975649368934387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please help me to find out the details of the following books and where I can buy them or at least get a copy 1. yazaHkIrti, CaMdappaha Cariu 2. vIrakavi, jaMbusAmi cariu, ed. Vimal Prakashan Jain, BhAratIya JnAnapITha Prakashan (New Delhi?), 1968 3. LakkhaNa (or LAkhU), JiNadatta Cariu 4. Lakhama Deva, NemiNAha Cariu 5. DhAhila, Paumasiri Cariu, ed. Madhusudhan Modi & Harivallabh Bhayani, Bombay (BharatIya VidyA Bhavan), SaMvat 2005 6. srIdhara, PAsaNAhaCariu 7. Agarcand NAhaTA, PracIna Gurjara KAvya SaMcaya ed. HC. Bhayani, Ahmedabad 1975 (LDBhAratiya SaMskRti VidyAmandir) 8. ZrIdhara, Bhavisayatta Cariu 9. DhanapAla, BAhubali Carita 10. Jayadeva Muni, BhAvanA SaMdhi PrakaraNa, ed. M. C. Modi, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona, 1930 11. Harideva (or NAgadeva?), MayaNaparAjaya Cariu, ed. HIrAlal Jain, Benares , 1962 12. MAtA Prasad Gupta, RAula Vela aur uskI bhASA, Allahabad, Mitra Prakashan Private Ltd. 13. SvayaMbhU Deva, RiTThanemi Cariu, ed. Devendra Kumar Jain, SaMvat 2042 (BhAratIya JnAnapITha, Benares? 14. Vibuha Sirihara, VaDDhamANa Cariu, ed. RAjArAm Jain, BhAratIya JnAnapITha Prakasan (New Delhi?), 1975 15. VarNaratnAkara ???? 16. Siddhasena SUri, VelAsavaI KahA, ed. R. B. Shah, Ahmedabad 1977 (L. D. Institute) 17. PuSpadanta, VIra Jinimda Cariu, ed. HIrAlal Jain, 1974 (BhAratIya JnAnapITha PrakaSan, NEw Delhi?) 18. R. M. Shah, SaMdhikAvya-Samuccaya, Ahmedabad 1980 (LAlbhAI DalpatbhAI BhAratIya SaMskRti VidyAmandir, 9) 19. Narasena Deva, SirivAla Cariu, ed. D. K. Jain, 1974 (BhAratIya JnAnapITha Prakazan, New Delhi?) 20. ZrIdhara, SukumAla Cariu, ?? 21. Udaya Candra, SuaMdhadahamI KahA, ed. HIrAlAl Jain, New Delhi, 1966, BhAratIya JnAnapITha PrakAzan) 22. Devasena GaNi, SulocanA Cariu ??? 23. Hemacandra, ApabhraMza VyAkaraNa. ed. R. Pischel, Bombay Sanskirt Series, 1900 Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silk at WMICH.EDU Thu Apr 9 19:35:29 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 15:35:29 -0400 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037607.23782.15887902367782925264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe that Steven Markel of the Los Angeles Museum has worked >extensively on the iconography of the >navagrahas, and has published or will shortly publish a book on the >subject. My recollection is that it is being published by Brill, but I'm >not sure of this. > >R. Salomon The dissertation was published. Reference: Markel, Stephen. Title: Origins of the Indian planetary deities / Stephen Markel. Published: Lewiston, N.Y. : Edwin Mellen Press, c1995. Description: xv, 234 p., [52] p. of plates : ill. ; 24 cm. Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 9 20:57:28 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 15:57:28 -0500 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar Message-ID: <161227037609.23782.17790481725305838372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Interesting that the name, Muttusvami Diksitar is used extensively in: Emme te Nijenhuis, Sacred songs of India: Diksitar's cycle of hymns to the Goddess Kamala. 1987, 2 v., Schweiz: Amadeus I suspect strongly that muttusvAmi dIksitar has Tamil roots. Unlike Tyagayya and other Telugu brahmins who settled in Tamil country for a long time and who wrote in Telugu, MuttusvAmi chose Sanskrit, even though the main courtly patronage and elitist tastes were toward Telugu. Is it a compromise that MuttusvAmi settled for? Regards N. Ganesan From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 9 11:58:52 1998 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 17:28:52 +0530 Subject: Plants, animals, and Humans Message-ID: <161227037586.23782.2552256445615799289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please visit the web-site: http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch Use the following selections in subject approach: "Sanskrit Studies" + "Animal and veterinary Sciences" Proceed to "SEARCH" button "Sanskrit Studies" + "Environmental Sciences" Proceed to "SEARCH" button "Sanskrit Studies" + "Botany" Proceed to "SEARCH" button The following selections may not be of direct interest, but .... "Sanskrit Studies" + "History of Pure and applied sciences" Proceed to "SEARCH" button In the TITLE input box : "*ved*" in combination with "*plant*" This I am afraid may list most items of Ayurveda, but a few of your interest as well. Hope the list members will appreciate my this style instead of the the previous detailed emails, which were objected to earlier for being long, boring and useless for many. If any of you prefer the previous style, do please inform me accordingly. Surya P. Mittal e-mailto:surya at pobox.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053 A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067 Najafgarh Road Orders ->E-mailto:ordproc at dkagencies.com New Delhi - 110 059. E-mailto:custserv at dkagencies.com Our Website : http://www.dkagencies.com Online Search : http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Alok Kumar wrote: > > I am interested in knowing ancient Indian views (Vedic and > Upanishads period) on the relationship of humans, animals, > and plants. As I understand, animals, humans and plants were > considered a part of "prakriti" (nature) with inter-dependence > and distinctive roles for each other. Plants were also > considered to have life with several senses (hearing, touch, > etc.). The role of plants to provide food to animals and > humans was also obvious. There are several hymn in Vedas on > the worship of plants. Is there any article/book on the topic, > especially in view of science. > > Alok Kumar > Department of Physics > State University of New York > Oswego, NY 13126. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 10 00:40:45 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 17:40:45 -0700 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037611.23782.9631537276187071324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: <<1. The sambodhana usually requires another vibhakti (most often the >dative) in the course of the sentence, except when the emphasis shifts from the object/person being called, to the caller (e.g. kRshNa! mAM pAlaya). Even in the nArayaNa bhaTTattiri example you quote, the sentence is "kRshNa! tubhyam namaH," which involves the dative form tubhyam, if not kRshNAya. Note that "kRshNAya tubhyam namaH" would be an equally valid construction, with an implied sambodhana in it. On the other hand, in the Ahiri kRti, if we read brahmamaya prakASini, etc.,using the sambodhana, there is no verb to go with it. >> The previous words ( prior to the last two sentences that go: "brahmaya prakAzin(I/i).....sAmarasya nidarzin(i/I)" )is " prItiyuktamacchittam vilayatu". From what I've heard and read, the word "vilayatu" can translate as "embrace" or "clasp"..In otherwords, if "vilayatu" is a yamakAlaGkAra in that it is meaningful when taken in conjuction with the previous words and also when taken all by itself, we have a situation where Dikshitar says "vilayatu [mAm implicit]" followed by the four qualifiers of kamalAmbA which would then have to be in the sambodhana prathamA resulting in i-kAram. One example( out of many) of a whole kr*ti where there is a verb in the begining followed by a list of qualifiers is "svAminAtha paripAlaya" in nATa. (i.e. there is a compositional similarity between the last part of the Ahiri kr*ti in question and the nATa kr*ti) AS you pointed out, the last kr*ti refers to all the vibhaktis for a specific reason i.e. description of the bindu in the zrIyantra; I therefore believe that the order of the vibhaktis would also be maintained here which is a good reason for his ending the kr*ti in sambOdhana prathamA. Another small point in regard to your nice write up about the difficulty in tracing Telugu/Tamil elements in Dikshitar: << Syama Sastri, the other famous composer, belonged to the Telugu speaking dharmakartA family of the Kanchi Kamakshi temple.>> FRom what I have read, the kAmAkSi temple to which zyAma zAstri's ancestors were attached to a temple in the modern kurnool dist of Andhra, from where they escaped to tanjAvUr because of muslim persecution. The family diety, bangAru kAmakSi was then installed in the tanjAvur district itself. It is also difficult to think that zyAma zAstri'd relatives would have settled down in kAncipuram ( very close to Arcot) when they were fleeing muslim persecution because the Nawabs of Arcot also had a reputation for Hindu-baiting. Prof Paul Younger ( "Temple of the dancing Sivan") mentions this as the reason for the dIkSitars of cidambaram shifting the mUla vigraha of the cidambaram temple in the 17th-18th centuries to tanjAvUr, where there was no persecution by the Hindu Bhonsle dynasty. <muttusvAmi or muddusvAmi is a moot point, although Telugu was certainly more fashionable then than Tamil.>> Couldn't agree with you more! It seems to have been common for people in that time to have interpreted a name in more than one away, and such that it made sense to the speakers of a given tongue. So while muttu makes sense to Tamilians, muddu makes sense to telugus. This is the probably the reason why Tamil books prefer muttu over muddu ( no distinction orthographically) whereas in telugu, "muddu" is explicitly written out. As another example, the letters of the words "nama: sivAya" are interpreted in Tamil and Samskrt differently and are both considered valid. REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 10 01:05:11 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 18:05:11 -0700 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar Message-ID: <161227037613.23782.7998956079983991870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <Unlike Tyagayya and other Telugu brahmins who settled in >Tamil country for a long time and who wrote in Telugu, >MuttusvAmi chose Sanskrit, even though the main courtly >patronage and elitist tastes were toward Telugu. Is it a compromise that MuttusvAmi settled for?>> MuttusvAmi dIkshitar has composed in Telugu, maNipravALam( if not Tamil) and samskrt. He attempted compositions like "abhayAmba ninnu" which use both Tamil and Telugu. There are compositions like "rUpamu jUci" in Telugu by him. I believe that he was above the kind of linguistic cross fire which is rampant nowadays. As far as trampling of Tamil culture is concerned, opinion seems to be divided. If one were to ignore politically biased writings, I have seen only N.Subramanian give the nAyakars and the marAThas bad reviews for destruction of Tamil culture. Other historians like C.K.Srinivasan ,M.Ruthnaswami and the redoubtable S.Krishnasvami Iyengar seem to be having a different opinion as far as the effect of marAthA rule on Tamil Nadu is concerned. Even among the more modern works, I've seen a work called "marATi Acciyil tamizhakam" which doesn't give the marAthas or the nAyakars a negative review. Likewise Rajesvari Ghose mentions one N.Visvanathan,( the curator of the sarasvati mahal library in tanjAvUr) in her book about the tiruvArUr temple whose admiration for sArabhOji came close to hero worship. I therefore believe that there is a lot of division within Tamil Nadu itself about the quality and contribution of the nAyakar and the marATha dynasties. As far as eroticism in Tamil literature is concerned, I don't think that this was the result of the nAyaka kings and their literature; the "kuruntokai" ( written before Telugu was even born) has passages which are just as erotic as kSEtrayya's padams. The same thing is also true of parts of the kampa rAmAyaNam. It would be interesting to see the kind of eroticism that existed in telugu before the nAyakar days; if eroticism got a clear boost from that era onwards, it can be posited that this was the influence of Tamil literature on Telugu literature!! While it may be true that the average rate of production of Tamil classics did go down during the 17th-18th centuries, there were people like tAyumAnavar and vIramAmunivar who did contribute new ideas to existing Tamil literature. I therefore believe that Tamil literature may have been threatened, but was certainly in no fear of becoming extinct. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 10 01:16:13 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 18:16:13 -0700 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037615.23782.6774963180777218293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna writes: >prItiyuktamacchittam vilayatu". From what I've heard and read, the word >"vilayatu" can translate as "embrace" or "clasp"..In otherwords, >if "vilayatu" is a yamakAlaGkAra in that it is meaningful when taken > in conjuction with the previous words and also when taken all by >itself, we have a situation where Dikshitar says "vilayatu [mAm >implicit]" followed by the four qualifiers of kamalAmbA which would then >have to be in the sambodhana prathamA resulting in i-kAram. If so, shouldn't the prathamA be more apt than the sambodhana? kA vilayatu? brahmamaya prakASinI vilayatu, etc. In the previous sentence, the quesion is kim vilayatu, and the answer is maccittam vilayatu. > >FRom what I have read, the kAmAkSi temple to which zyAma zAstri's >ancestors were attached to a temple in the modern kurnool dist of >Andhra, from where they escaped to tanjAvUr because of muslim >persecution. The family diety, bangAru kAmakSi was then installed in >the tanjAvur district itself. It is also difficult to think that zyAma >zAstri'd relatives would have settled down in kAncipuram ( very close to >Arcot) when they were fleeing muslim persecution because the Nawabs of >Arcot also had a reputation for Hindu-baiting. Prof Paul Younger ( >"Temple of the dancing Sivan") mentions this as the reason for the >dIkSitars of cidambaram shifting the mUla vigraha of the cidambaram >temple in the 17th-18th centuries to tanjAvUr, where there was no >persecution by the Hindu Bhonsle dynasty. I've heard that the bangAru kAmAkshI temple was established in Tanjavur to house a vigraha that was brought from the Kanchipuram temple, not from Kurnool. Around the end of the 18th century, during the wars of the British with Tipu Sultan, most temple idols from Kanchipuram were shifted to Tanjavur via Udayarpalayam. The idols from the ekAmreSa and varadarAja perumAL temples were also hidden and taken away to Udayarpalayam, and returned to Kanchipuram later in the 19th century. There are also some records of the British East India government partitioning the dharmakartA family rights to the bangAru kAmAkshI temple in Tanjavur and the original temple in kAncIpuram, between two branches of the family. In 1842, the management of the Kanchi temple was transferred to the SAnkara maTha based in Kumbhakonam, which has since shifted to Kanchipuram. And of course, Syama Sastri's compositions are themselves full of references to kAmAkshI at Kanchipuram. Did the Nawabs of Arcot have a great reputation for persecution of Hindus? I thought they made many donations to Hindu religious institutions. Those who fled from the Arcot/Kanchi region to Tanjavur were probably more apprehensive of the outcome of the war with Tipu Sultan, than about their local ruler's persecution. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 9 17:28:00 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 22:28:00 +0500 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar Message-ID: <161227037599.23782.13002607365209214763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:42 AM 4/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >MuttusvAmi Dishitar is the right spelling, I think. >His Tamil forefathers wrote in Telugu to get >Telugu Nayak court patronage. >MuttusvAmi Dikshitar's descendent, Subbaraamar >writes in SSP(telugu edition) as MuddusvAmi >just to fit with the Telugu custom. As MuttusvAmi Dikshitar >lived in Tamil country, the name MuttusvAmi should get >high priority compared to MuddusvAmi. > Since tamil does not have a letter for 'd' seperately muttusvAmi dIkSitar is alright. But what about muthusvAmi dIkSitar? The word muddu or muttu stands for charming. muddu paLani, muddu kumAra stand for charming child subrahmanya. ( cf., 'muddukumAra jananIM' in "bhajarE chitta bAlAmbikAm" in kalyANi) >17th/18th century Karnatic musicians, mainly from Tamil lands, >chose to write in Telugu because the ruling chieftains were Nayaks. >Nayaks were Balijas or toTTiyas. The Nayaks usurped power at >the right moment when the Vijayanagar kingdom was in decline. >The Nayaks were mercenaries, not from cultured social background. >The focus of Vijayanagar had always been Kaveri delta. (Trichy & Tanjore) >Chieftains get culture, music etc., after a few generations. >See B. Stein, Vijanagara, Cambridge univ. press. > >Nayak chieftaincy is like Texan Cowboys becoming >millionaires when Oil was found :-) > Men of arms who are in the process of acquiring power usually do not have much 'culture'. Usually culture comes much later when they settle down. This is true whether the they are telugus or tamils. Krishna and Godavari deltas were already in the hands of Vijayanagar empire. These are richer than the Kaveri delta. Krishnadevaraya sent Nagamanayaka to the south when the then pandya king sought his assistance because of an usurper. >The Telugu Nayak era is considered a period >of heavy decline for Tamil literature. Kirthanas >&c. flourished. In a mixture of telugu, tamil, sanskrit. >May be sangitam is great, Yes, but many times sAhityam >is very poor. The literary excellence is not that great >usually. Also, the Telugu period in Tamil Nadu flourished >music of erotic nature, devadasi tradition etc., >This is from Nayak courts' aspirations, >A. K. Ramanujan, When the God is a customer: Telugu >courtesan songs, Univ. of california. >For Nayak's meager origins, see Shulman & Sanjay Subrahmanyam. > kSEtrajJa who is considered as erotic pada personified belongs to this period. His sahityam is unequalled to this day. I do not know what was the state of tamil padam at that time. But I think that tamil padams had a new life after the kSEtrajJa. The great musicologist vEnkatamakhi about whom the tamilians boast is in the court of raghunAtha nAyaka. The love of Nayak kings for telugu one may consider as love for the mother tongue. But what about the unreserved patronage of maharastrian kings of TanjAvur for telugu. This you cannot ascribe it to partiality to the mother tongue. Sahaji's telugu writings attest to the beauty of telugu as a language refined. ( Why even the great subrahmanya bhArati gave his attestation to the sweetness of telugu). >What a decline from classical sangam poetry, kuRaL, cilambu, tevaram, >naalaayiram, kamban, etc., (2nd century BCE - 12th centuries) days >to the tamil kiirthanam days (a heady mixture of erotic, different languages, >slangs, etc..)! During the eclectic days of Telugu chiefs, >the telugu kiirthanam evolved from earlier tamil musical >traditions (paaNar of sangam, cilambu, pancha marabu >in adiyaarkku nallaar, mainly the Tevaram Othuvaar tradition, >araiyar sevai in srirangam etc.,) > Are the nAyak kings responsible for this decline of tamil literature or the decline has already set in? If it has already set in, making nAyak kings responsible for it is searching for scapegoats. In telugu, kIrtanam was already there. As far as I know Bhadrachala RAmadAs never visited tamil country to learn about kIrtanams. >It took really giants like Ramalinga Vallalaar, Bharatiyaar, >U. V. Saminataiyar, Arumuga Navalar, Maraimalai Adigal to rediscover and >start a renaissance of Tamil letters and music. > > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > > From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 10 02:29:32 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 07:29:32 +0500 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037617.23782.15440754840400379911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:53 AM 4/9/98 PDT, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >ps.2. to Ganesan and Sarma - It is very difficult to separate out >Tamil/Kannada/Telugu elements in the Dikshitar families. The immediate >family of Muttusvami Dikshitar hailed from Virinchipuram near >Kanchipuram, where there is heavy Telugu influence. The family might >have well been originally Telugu speakers. Govinda Dikshita, the father >of Venkatamakhi, was a Kannada speaking Brahmin belonging to the Hoysala >Karnataka group, who migrated to the Tanjavur region. Ramasvami >Dishitar, Muttusvami's father, studied music with a descendent of >Venkatamakhi. Syama Sastri, the other famous composer, belonged to the >Telugu speaking dharmakartA family of the Kanchi Kamakshi temple. There >was considerable inter-marriage among Kannada and Telugu Brahmin >families which settled in Tamil Nadu during late Vijayanagara times. >Their common Sanskritic heritage may have been more important to them >than the other languages, and whether the correct spelling should be >muttusvAmi or muddusvAmi is a moot point, although Telugu was certainly >more fashionable then than Tamil. > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > I want to set one record straight. The teacher of rAmaswAmi dIkSitar in vocal music is the tanjAvur AsthAna vidvAn vIrbhadrayya, a telugu man. rAmasvAmi dIkSitar learnt upto AlApana and pallavi svaras from him. This fact is usally underplayed in taking about the musical tradition of muddusvAmi dIkSitar. >?From the descendents of vEnkaTamakhi, rAmasvAmi dIkSitar learnt musicology (chaturdanDi prakAzika) and vINa. subbarAma dIkSitar in SSP says of vIrabhadrayya "It is because of this great man that the southern musical tradition is shining with great clarity till today." regards, sarma. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 10 06:03:12 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 11:03:12 +0500 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar Message-ID: <161227037619.23782.10889689261566817369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Ganesan: Long live your suspicion! The DiikSitar (should it not be tiikkicitar?)was a lucky man! Bh.K. At 15:57 09/04/98 -0500, you wrote: >Interesting that the name, Muttusvami Diksitar >is used extensively in: >Emme te Nijenhuis, Sacred songs of India: Diksitar's >cycle of hymns to the Goddess Kamala. >1987, 2 v., Schweiz: Amadeus > >I suspect strongly that muttusvAmi dIksitar has Tamil roots. >Unlike Tyagayya and other Telugu brahmins who settled in >Tamil country for a long time and who wrote in Telugu, >MuttusvAmi chose Sanskrit, even though the main courtly >patronage and elitist tastes were toward Telugu. >Is it a compromise that MuttusvAmi settled for? > >Regards >N. Ganesan > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Apr 10 19:09:00 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 14:09:00 -0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037626.23782.1899144471423472944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is a beautiful poem from Tevaram, traditionally sung at Saiva Vellala homes of Tamil Nadu at auspicious occasions. I have heard it as a child from the charming voice of Shanmuga Diikshitar of Perur, Coimbatore, in cousins' weddings, grahashaanti homam at home etc., Seeks Siva's protection from planets' ill-effects if any. I request Dr. Jayabarathi to translate this, please. tiruk kOLili I - 62 pazantakkarAkam nAL Aya pOkAmE, najncu aNiyum kaNTan2ukkE AL Aya an2pu ceyvOm;--maTa nejncE!--aran2 nAmam kELAy! nam kiLai kiLaikkum kETu paTAt tiRam aruLik kOL Aya nIkkumavan2 - kOLili emperumAn2E. - campantar (early 7th century) Pre-seventh century prayers to planets are there in Puranaanuuru, ParipaaDal, Silambu etc., They occur not as navagraha prayers, but to individual planets in several occasions. I will post them when I find time. Regards, N. Ganesan From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Fri Apr 10 19:10:58 1998 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Hardy) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 14:10:58 -0500 Subject: female Hindu saints Message-ID: <161227037629.23782.6086172682020974851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Thank you to all who contributed references concerning female Hindu saints. They have been passed on to my appreciative colleague. Kristen Hardy From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Apr 10 19:39:25 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 14:39:25 -0500 Subject: Bull baiting Message-ID: <161227037631.23782.1340038879953416998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading the following article: Zvelebil, Kamil, Bull-baiting Festival in Tamil India, Annals of the Naprstek Museum 1, Prague 1962, pp. 191-199, 4 pp. ills. Near Madurai, an ancient village sport survives to this day. Right after Pongal, the Tamil farmer's festival, guys try to capture rogue bulls. This is called "kol ERu tazuvutal" in kalittokai, an ancient Tamil sangam classic. To win a bride, one has to prove valor in those days. May be after reading Dr. Zvelebil's paper, a person from the lands of Matador culture went to Tamil Nadu to study this. Fabio Scialpi, La festa di Pongal a Madurai, 1991. illus. Regards, N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Apr 10 19:55:31 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 14:55:31 -0500 Subject: Dikshitar Days Message-ID: <161227037632.23782.9267217094739025975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enjoying the insightful articles of Tamil history from the able writings of Prof. Jan Filipsky, Czech Republic. These tell a lot about the social, political, economic backdrop of MuttusvAmi Dikshitar days. 1) Filipsky, Jan, History Motivated: Historical Ballads in Tamil, In: Mariola Offredi (ed.), Language Versus Dialect; Linguistic and Literary Essays on Hindi, Tamil and Sarnami, Manohar, Delhi 1990, pp. 113-126 2) Do., The Story of Kattabomman: Folk Hero-Worship and Nationalist Myth, In: Jiri Prosecky (ed.), Ex pede pontis. Papers presented on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the foundation of the Oriental Institute Prague, Prague 1992, pp. 35-46 3) Do., Freebooters or Patriots? The Poligar Chieftains of 18th Century Tamilnadu, Archiv orientalni (Praha), 60, 1992, pp. 43-56 4) Do., Establishing the Company Raj in the Carnatic: Revenue Assignment of 1781-1785, Archiv orientalni, 61, 1993, pp. 261-272 Regards, N. Ganesan From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 10 23:24:11 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 16:24:11 -0700 Subject: muttusvAmi dIkshitar (was Re: navagraha worship ...) Message-ID: <161227037637.23782.12617285212936856619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: << situation where Dikshitar says "vilayatu [mAm >>implicit]" followed by the four qualifiers of kamalAmbA which would >then >have to be in the sambodhana prathamA resulting in i-kAram.>> Vidyasankar says: >If so, shouldn't the prathamA be more apt than the sambodhana? kA >vilayatu? brahmamaya prakASinI vilayatu, etc. In the previous sentence,the quesion is kim vilayatu, and the answer is maccittam vilayatu.>> Some time ago, I had the pleasure of listening to D.K.Jayaraman sing dIkshitar's "zrI subrahmaNyO mAm rakshatu" in tODi. The first thing that struck me was the pronounciation which continuously changed the prathamA to sambOdhana prathamA i.e. in his rendering the kr*ti came out as Pallavi: "zrI subrhamaNya mAm rakshatu! sannutAvatAra shaktirUpa! Anupallavi: "bhAsamAna vallidEvasenA! bhAratIzAditattvabOdhana!......" I pointed this out to somebody as a case of un-grammatical singing. i.e. the lOT lakAr being sung with sambOdhana prathamA and recieved the reply that this was not always true. The person who told me this then refered the matter to a paNDit whom he knew in Benares, apparently a man who is considered an authority on samskrt grammar in Benares circles. The paNDit's opinion was that while it was common to see the tu ending go with prathamA there ARE examples of it being used in conjunction with sambOdhana prathamA too. This surprised me but I accepted it since it came from an expert. I therefore would like to say that the construction being used here cannot be ruled out. (I am not sure if this is a feature of Benarasi grammar but if so, it can be said that this was Dikshitar's "wink"/acknowledgement towards HIS stay in Benares). It was pointed out to me that it is possible to have constructions like "rAma! namastey!" ( part sambOdhana, part chaturthI) and "rAmaya namastey!"( pure chaturthi) and therefore one could have grammatically valid constructions where there is an apparent vibhakti change halfway through the sentence. I would also like to make another comment regarding a posting yesterday saying that it would be fairly un-Dikshitar like to leave something hanging without a verb i.e. if we assume that the last four words are in ikarAntam, then one would have to find a verb to go with the 4 words. If the above theory isn't convincing:-), it is possible to come up with dIkshitar kr*tis where he has written a whole composition (pallavi+anupallavi+caraNam) in sambOdhana prathamA without using a verb! A good example is "kaumAri gauri" where there is no verb; infact the online version that I've seen also makes this comment. I have also seen a nOTTusvaram run the same way though I cannot recollect the details now. I therefore believe that he could have written a part of a krti in sambOdhana prathamA without assigning it a verb. The circumstancial evidence which bolsters this theory is that there are atleast 3 or 4 words in each vibhakti in the kr*ti; so why would there be a sudden imbalance in the weightings of the prathamA and sambOdhana prathamA? If one were to accept the theory of the last two lines being prathamA, one would get 8 or 9 words in prathamA and just 0 or 1 word( assuming cinmAtrE is sambOdhana) in sambOdhana prathamA. Dikshitar is supposed to have been very careful in terms of the finer points of grammar even in his ordinary kr*tis, I don't think he would have set up such imbalances in the navAvaraNA kr*tis, which are very high quality, even by his standards! > >I've heard that the bangAru kAmAkshI temple was established in Tanjavur to house a vigraha that was brought from the Kanchipuram temple, notfrom Kurnool. Around the end of the 18th century, during the wars of the British with Tipu Sultan, most temple idols from Kanchipuram were shifted to Tanjavur via Udayarpalayam. The idols from the ekAmreSa andvaradarAja perumAL temples were also hidden and taken away to Udayarpalayam, and returned to Kanchipuram later in the 19th century. And of course, Syama Sastri's compositions are >themselves full of references to kAmAkshI at Kanchipuram. > >Did the Nawabs of Arcot have a great reputation for persecution of >Hindus? I thought they made many donations to Hindu religious >institutions. Those who fled from the Arcot/Kanchi region to Tanjavur >were probably more apprehensive of the outcome of the war with Tipu >Sultan, than about their local ruler's persecution. > I read this story of migration from Kurnool in Prof R.Srinivasan's works; I also believe( though cannot vouch for it) that Smt Vidya Sankar, the musicologist who studied with Annasvami Sastri( the descendant of Syama SAstri) has made this comment. As far as the references to the temple in KAnchi are concerned, I agree with you but would like to add that there are lots of references to the temple in Tanjavur; the varALi kr*ti "bangAru kAmAkSi" being a good example. I am also told that the migration from Kurnool was the reason for his telugu corresponding to the rAyalaseema/ceded district style of Telugu. Regards, Krishna As far as the hindu baiting tendencies of the Nawabs of Arcot are concerned, this seems to have been a highly time variant phenomenon. If they were unkind towards the temple in Cidambaram, they went to the other extreme and helped the Hindus at the cost of the Muslims in the kapalIsvarar temple in Mylapore.( or so I'm told). In general, the behaviour of the Muslim kings towards the Hindu temples seems to have been highly time variant; Tipu Sultan endowed the Chamundeswari temple while destroying other temples in Northern Kerala. I'm told that even Aurangazeb actually endowed a few Hindu temples!!! So, my own impression is that they seem to have had a "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde" kind of personality where it came to interaction with Hindu temples. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 10 12:33:54 1998 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 18:03:54 +0530 Subject: Dice Message-ID: <161227037623.23782.14134973201099824827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Lal can be reached at: i. F7 Hauz Khas Enclave, New Delhi 110 016 / India Tel: 6855817 ii. 3694 Wrightwood Drive Studio City CA 91604 / USA Tel: 818-763-9846 Surya P. Mittal surya at pobox.com Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > towards the ends. The one that I saw many years ago (demonstrated by > Prof. B.B.Lal) had been found at Noh. After that I saw in > archaeological > reports one or two mentions of biconical dice found at PGW sites, but > no > photo, drawing or a good description. > Mayby somebody knows the address of Prof. B.B.Lal? I sent a > letter > for him to the Archeological Survey of India, but got no answer. > Thanks in advance. > Yaroslav Vassilkov From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 10 12:34:50 1998 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 18:04:50 +0530 Subject: Bhaa.sya on Graha names Message-ID: <161227037625.23782.17799224718838043076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please visit the web-site: http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch Use the following selections in TITLE input box: "navagr* " It should give you a list of three books on nava-graha Regards Surya P. Mittal e-mailto:surya at pobox.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053 A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067 Najafgarh Road Orders ->E-mailto:ordproc at dkagencies.com New Delhi - 110 059. E-mailto:custserv at dkagencies.com Our Website : http://www.dkagencies.com Online Search : http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Girish Sharma wrote: > > Are there any traditional Bhaa.sya-s on the 108 names > of each of the nine planets? If so, does anyone have > references for available editions? Thank you. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Girish Sharma > San Diego, CA From roheko at MSN.COM Fri Apr 10 20:09:04 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 22:09:04 +0200 Subject: Dice Message-ID: <161227037635.23782.7544570661605286165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know, that you never searching for what I can provide. But because I did just a lot of scanning Ajanta paintings I came also across that certain painting I mentioned before. I send it to you as a GIF-picture (painting in Ajanta of the Vidhurapandita Jataka Nr. 545) I would like to know if the picture reached you without problem. Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Yaroslav V. Vassilkov An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Sonntag, 5. April 1998 11:10 Betreff: Dice >In his letter of 5.04.98 R.H.Koch wrote: > > >I am sorry. 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M.6ES:9- Q7I)?]&"8X?_.XM7?7:/97%E>4UO%XD:1^>4#/TJ3Z\'M:.G3DL5 MM9;_F)N5,[==V=O=WZ%@LZ!]NX<=A<1#JV7:7KSK+0$(;)J]@@+IF"]AQI19JR/- M/Q]O?O+'L6%)GK9XTL0YU&(R3CIG_+R(B=I1HDF5(F5TDE(JJ$:/?LJRZ-[#> MN5^C2CVK-YE#N at NIHHR&A^O=&U_94C[<,BM8D&"ODBL*6O,ZN:=1QQV,SZ[A M_\(J7?N,;3BSZ-#[NA)NG'OS3J5X<^^.W!>2XX=],$*FG:)I;8J5L=GT["RX M<,%&$F>,GII[][>/^0*5!]P at 1^GAC5KVN[AUQ]][.SL?^Z2Y_(##7]^';;ZX M[[^337-B.>8P(VT[L5I*#[.B;FMO/]S>X\>["2F,";SS(LSOH at R1LZ\G_E@; M3$-A+,,JK_%Z^R9"=#RT0,%;5DQ1,O>0"S">"STJ<+U81$K0N.,>>6]$8OQ# ML9 *D4S2%>+JHA'$(;7#XD<0V%/#M@/=:C 4V1X+2Q\N.J0O3%183"[+*X,$ M<$O-F"K/R4OFZ_$Y`ML*$4NKQGKQ1&RJ? -*.S?I<[X3-Y0LU-!#(T"4G4$O MF_,R[AA5C4=XELKQI4AGPE113#;ME,X[Y>1,TPI'S2%.3U%-5=55J;21U5=A MC57661%U%$];:6V5LUQY[=575NK\5=AAB2W6V"[>&=-87(]MUME9 at WU6VFFI MK1:N4Q%TU5=FK>W6V^ZB_5;<<F1+KU]]_`0Y8X($)+MC@@Q%.6.&%&6[8X8 Dear Members, Does anyone have any idea about if this is some regular practice or a single incident? I Omar Temple ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 9:59:00 +0000 From: Rajiv Mallikarjun - IRD To: Irfan Subject: More news Apr 11, 1998. Are we living in the dark ages / pre-historic times ? Family sacrifices father, eats his flesh at Kali puja In Varanasi, Ram Sevak Chowhan's family beheaded him, ate his flesh and danced around with his blood smeared on their body. They also chopped off the tongues of his two daughters-in-law. http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/apr/09sacri.htm Rgds Rajiv Mallikarjun From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Apr 11 07:29:43 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 98 09:29:43 +0200 Subject: More news about India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037641.23782.3063179914714195478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Members, >Does anyone have any idea about if this is some regular practice or a >single incident? > >I Omar >Temple Probably in Kaliyuga (in my own cultur, Iron Age) if someone is able to ask if a criminal comportment is a religious one ... Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From barathi at PC.JARING.MY Sat Apr 11 09:32:20 1998 From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 98 17:32:20 +0800 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037644.23782.10670352279994317288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 07:38 PM 4/3/98 +0200, you wrote: >>Dear members of Indology group >>-----------------cut > >>a) TEXTUAL REFERENCES: >>In this context I need help concerning textual references: >>[to point it out very clearly: I am not looking for jyotis.a sources] >>Who knows of passages out of the Veda Samhitas, which adress the >>navagraha (being at that time only seven) as deities? Who can provide >>me with references to graha worship given in the puranas? In the agamic >>canons? Are there early S_ilpa texts that describe ikonographical >>details and material to be used for navagraha murtis? >>- One question I wish to answer: how far can we find references to a >>kind of worship of navagraha in the ancient textual sources as it is >>practiced nowadays? Do these references allow to say something on the >>beginning of a tradition where the planetary deities are referred to as >>(secondary) deities? >>Any hints are welcome. > > Dear Marianna, > > I have not come across any reference to worship > of the planets as such in the Sangam Literature (c 300B.C.-300A.D.),. But planetary effects on human and mundane affairs are touched upon in PuRanAnURu etc. But there are some small facts that I put forward which I hope will be of some use to you. > Enigmatic Navagrahas in the Sea: > > There is a place called Devi Pattinam, a few > miles to the north of Ramanathapuram and north-west of > Rameswaram in Tamilnadu. This place is associated with the Rama saga. The sea-shore is the sea-front to the Palk Strait. There is a place on the sea-shore called Nava Paashaanam". > It is a Navagraha Kshetra. You have to wade into the > sea for about 100 yards off-shore. There, standing in > waist-deep water, are nine pillars. They are arranged > in the classical Navagraha arrangement of a square with > a central dot, which is typical of Navagraha PrathishTa. > The pillars are about ten feet in height from the > the sea -floor. How deeply rooted below the sea-floor level > we cannot guess. > The priest wades to the site, and plasters sandal paste, > Saffron powder and puts on flowers. Then he performs the > puja with the recitation of respective Mantras. > The pillars look like granite. But they are so weather-beaten with wind and sea-water with layers and layers of barnacles, that it is difficult to tell. > The place is of unknown antiquity and still poses > a mystery to people. > Rama is said to have performed Puja to the Navagrahas > before the invasion on Lanka. >> >>2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: >>Who can provide me with information on further temples especially >>connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, >>there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares >>(which one?!), ... >>- it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the >>grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by >>devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomen. > > In Tamilnadu, among the Siva temples, one will > notice a phenomenon. > There are more than 200 ancient temples of > Siva, which are known as the ThEvAra ThalangaL > ThEvAram hymns have been deicated to those temples. > Whether sung on unsung, there are several Siva > temples which have been honoured with ThalaPurAna > or local mythologies. According to some of the stories, > one or all of the Navagrahas would at one time or > other have made special worship to the Siva of a > particular temple. So a minor shrine would be installed > in that temple for that particular planet. > In due course, the temples became pilgrm centres for > alleviation of afflictions of planetary maladies. > It became customary for the common crowd to go to the > shrine of the planet, rather than to Siva, and offer > worship only there. In Thiru naLLARu this is what has > happened. The Emperor NaLa came fleeing from the effects > of SanaiScara. He sought refuge in Siva and was freed > from the effects of Kali Dhosha. Since Siva removed > Kali Dhosha and maleffects of Sani, the temple > became a centre for people seeking such a remedy. > But in due course, the Lord who removed the effects > of Sani lost His importance, giving way to Sani. And > Thiru NaLLARu now is a Navagraha Kshetra because of Sani. > Several of the Siva temples associated with Navgrahas > are ThEvArappAdal temples. > > They are; > > Sun: Thiru MIyachUr, Thiru Ven KaAdu, Innambar, > Thiru Avadu ThuRai., KumbakONam, ChAyAvanam, > ThEthiyUr, ThiruvaiyARu, KalzukkunRam, > Parudhi Niyamam, AdAnai. > Moon: KEthAram, SOmEswaram, PrayAg, KumbakONam. > Mars: VaithIswaran KOil, KAnchi > Mercury: Thiru VeN kAdu, KurukAvUr. > Jupiter: KAnchi, Chithambaram, KoNdIchcharam, > Alangudi. > In Alangudi, there is a shrine of > DakshinAmUrthi. People afflicted with maleffects of > Jupiter, worship the DakshiNAmUrthi. Each planet has > an adhi devata and pratyadhi devata. In many cases > the adhi devata is worshipped for beneficient effects. > In the case of Jupiter, the adhi devata is DakshiNAmUrthi. > Venus: SrI VAnjiyam, KAnchi. > Sani: Thiru NaLLARu, VEdhAraNyam, Thiru ArUr, > ThiruchchenggAttangudi. > RAhu: KEthAram, SIrkAlzi, SempAmbanngudi. > KEthu: ThirukkEthIswaram(Ceylon), SempAmbanngudi. All these temples have their own ThEvAram hymns. Usually the hymns would contain some reference to the worship done by a paricular planet, or the grace bestowed upon that particular planet by Siva. Which means that, the association of that planet was already in existennce when the hymn was sung. Which puts the legend earlier than the hymns. So it can be safely surmised that the planetary association with all these Siva temples are at least one thousand four hundred years of antiquity. So in all these temples, it became customary to build special shrines to the planet concerned. There is also another custom among the Saivites. If a person is affected by a particular planet, he has to recite the ThEvAram hymn dedicated to that temple associated with that particular planet. Eg., For AngkAraka DhOsha, one has to recite the hymns of VaidhIswaran KOyil alias Thiru PuL irukku vELUr. Because that place has the Mars-connection. The hymns are recited repeatedly. Actually this is a form of PrayOga. All these hymns are compiled as the "VENdukOL Thirup Padhigam". For general coverage, one has to recite KOLaRu Thirup Padhigam" or the "Thiruk KOLili Thirup Padhigam". There is more on Agamas, Silpa Sastra and the Puranas in the next posting as you have asked. Regards Jayabarathi > >> >>Thank your for your time and cooperation >> >>yours >> >>Marianna >> >> ================================================================> From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Sat Apr 11 15:36:14 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 98 17:36:14 +0200 Subject: Phoneme /q/ in Kohistani Shina Message-ID: <161227037648.23782.456115969669632872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Can anyone suggest where to look for sources for the following vocabulary items which contain the phoneme /q/ in Kohistani Shina? 'thooNqar, a species of frog (falling tone on the long vowel) qur'luu, a children's game (no data for tones) quuNj, 'stack of firewood' (falling tone on the vowel) ba'Raq, 'shining' pa'Raq, 'sudden laughter' My data includes many loanwords with /q/ (originally from Arabic) and indigenous words with /q/. The two that are definitely of IA origin are: qaa, 'crow' (falling tone on the vowel) ma'noq, 'frog' I am hoping to assign the five mystery items to one category or another. With thanks, and best holiday wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sun Apr 12 11:48:32 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 98 06:48:32 -0500 Subject: Humans, animals and plants Message-ID: <161227037650.23782.4446690717780483554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Mr. Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian for the references on Siva. I have seen all of them. They are only bit & pieces of info, in my humble opinion. A monograph in two volumes, one from Sanskrit and another from Tamil/Dravidian literatures, on "The Rise of Siva in Hindu tradition" is YET to be written. Something on the lines of "The rise of the Goddess in the Hindu tradition". I have outlined some sources to be looked into in a prior posting. Yours, N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Apr 13 13:44:25 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 08:44:25 -0500 Subject: Horses in Megaliths Message-ID: <161227037652.23782.10812405186105460750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When I get a bibliography from Ms. Praveena Gullapalli/Dr. Greg Possehl, I will post that mail too. They informed that there are horse remains and horse trappings in Indian megaliths. References worth looking into: a) Lawrence S. Leshnik, Some early Indian horse-bits and other bridle equipment, Americal J. Arch., 75, 1, 141-150, 1971 b) K. R. Alur, Animal remains: B. skeletal remains (verterbrata) (in) M. S. Nagaraja Rao, Protohistoric cultures of the Tungabhadra valley. 1971, Dharvar c) P. K. Thomas, Horse remains from Raipur (in) G. B. Deglurkar and Gouri P. Lad, Megalithic Raipur (1985-1990), Poona: Deccan college p. 133-136, 1992 d) P. C. Pant, The megaliths of Jangal mahaland the Vedic tradition, (in) V. N. Misra, P. Bellwood, Recent advances in Indo-Pacific prehistory, Delhi, 1985 e) A. Parpola, Arguments for an Aryan origin of South Indian megaliths. Madras: Govt. of Tamil Nadu, 1973 f) K. P.Rao, Interpreting animal remains in Megalithic graves. (in) A. M. Shastri, D. Handa and C. S. Gupta. Visvambra: Probings in Orientology, Delhi, 1995 g) V. V. Rao, Animal remains from Paunar (in) S. B. Deo, M. K. Dhavalikar, Paunar excavation (1967), Univ. of Nagpur, 1968 h) N. Wyatt, Asvamedha and Purusamedha in ancient India, Religion, 1989, v. 19, 1, p. 1-11. Regards, N. Ganesan **************************************************************************** Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:41:19 -0600 From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: Horses in Megaliths There are about 10 references I have about the HORSES in megalithic burials. Thanks to Prof. Y. V. Vassilkov's comment to look for them. This is only a skimming of titles. There are many reports titled as "Excavation: Place X"; "Megalithic Complex: Place X (Year Y)"; etc., which can be searched inside. Prof. Gregory Possehl, Univ. of Pennsylvania, informed me that there are horses and horse trappings in megalithic burials and Ms. Praveena Gullapalli is working with him on this topic. Prof. Possehl said they will send a bibliography. I will post what I have next week. I also contacted Prof. K. Rajan, Dept. of Archaeology, Tamil univ., Thanjavur. He got his Ph.D from Dr. S. R. Rao. Dr. K. Rajan has worked extensively for the last 15 years on Tamil Nadu megaliths. See K. Rajan, Archaeology of Tamil Nadu (Kongu country), Noida: Books India 1994 . There are 72 pages full of pictures from megaliths. When I get replies from K. Rajan, R. Nagaswamy, or F. C. Southworth, I will post. The 'horse-centered' Aryan texts, classical Tamil sangam texts, sculptures from historical period (eg., Sanchi), the huge terracota horses that potters make (prehistoric?) show horses increase manyfold compared to IVC. Further, Indian megalithic horse culture may be analogous to Greek situation of texts vs. archaeology like what Dr. Thillaud says. Regards, N. Ganesan From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Apr 13 16:05:07 1998 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 09:05:07 -0700 Subject: Phoneme /q/ in Kohistani Shina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037656.23782.4421359689588099393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It strikes me that two of the Kh. Shina words with /q/ cited by you are frog words; Turner (CDIAL #9746), re ma.n.dUka- (presumably source of Kh. Shina ma'noqu) refers to "many aberrant forms in NIA...due to taboo". Perhaps this is relevant. Note also that 'thooNqar', 'a species of frog' is the only word listed by you with /q/ in medial position. R. Salomon On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > Can anyone suggest where to look for sources for the following vocabulary > items which contain the phoneme /q/ in Kohistani Shina? > > 'thooNqar, a species of frog (falling tone on the long vowel) > qur'luu, a children's game (no data for tones) > quuNj, 'stack of firewood' (falling tone on the vowel) > ba'Raq, 'shining' > pa'Raq, 'sudden laughter' > > My data includes many loanwords with /q/ (originally from Arabic) and > indigenous words with /q/. The two that are definitely of IA origin are: > > qaa, 'crow' (falling tone on the vowel) > ma'noq, 'frog' > > I am hoping to assign the five mystery items to one category or another. > > With thanks, and best holiday wishes, > > Ruth Schmidt > > > *********************************************** > Ruth Laila Schmidt > Dept of East European and Oriental Studies > University of Oslo > P.O. Box 1030 Blindern > N-0315 Oslo, Norway > Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 > Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 > Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no > From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Apr 13 14:09:51 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 10:09:51 -0400 Subject: Amartya Sen talk at Library of Congress Message-ID: <161227037654.23782.16503514477523130698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ECONOMIST AMARTYA SEN TO DISCUSS ASIAN VALUES IN THE ANNUAL GOLDMAN LECTURE AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS Economist, philosopher and educator Amartya Sen will deliver the sixth annual Joanna Jackson Goldman Memorial Lecture on American Civilization and Government at 6:30 p.m. April 21. Titled "Asian Values and American Priorities," the lecture will be held in the Montpelier Room, on the sixth floor of the James Madison Memorial Building, at 101 Independence Ave. S.E. Tickets are not required. Mr. Sen is known as an economist who deals with broad humanistic issues, such as hunger and poverty, and their impact on economics. He will offer perspectives on the interactions of Asian cultural and economic values with current American priorities for Asia. Newly appointed as Master of Trinity College, Mr. Sen received his Ph.D. from Cambridge and has held positions at numerous universities. Mr. Sen is a fellow of the British Academy, a past president of the American, the Indian, and the International Economic associations and has received many other distinctions. The Goldman Memorial Lecture series is made possible by a gift from the estate of the late Eric F. Goldman, who taught at Princeton University. Each year an individual is selected on the basis of his or her high achievement and literary skill to deliver a lecture at the Library of Congress on a significant issue facing American democracy. Interpreting services (American Sign Language, Contact Signing, Oral and/or Tactile) will be provided if requested five business days in advance of the event. Call (202) 707-6362 TTY and voice to make a specific request. For other ADA accommodations, contact the Disability Employment office at (202) 707-9948 TTY and (202) 707-7544 voice. The Madison Building is diagonally across the street from the Capitol South Metro station. Press Contact: Yvonne French (202) 707-9191 Public Contact: Scholarly Programs (202) 707-3302 [Announcement slightly modified from press release.] From thompson at JLC.NET Mon Apr 13 20:02:45 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 16:02:45 -0400 Subject: "Asura" in the Vedas Message-ID: <161227037661.23782.1212878505286429077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With many apologies for its tardiness, here is a brief response to Dan Lusthaus's question of long ago: >What legs does the theory that the meaning of the Iranians' elevation of >Ahura and demonization of devis, while the Indians elevate devas and >'titanize' asuras, indicates a social split -- each group demonizing the >other and the other's gods? > I'm not quite sure of what you are looking for here, but it seems to me that the evidence suggests, far more than a 'split' between Iranians and Indians [both Aryans of course], a basic and abiding familiarity. I cannot emphasize too much how close RV and old Avestan are to each other, both linguistically and culturally. The most likely scenario is that, at least ideologically, the Indic branch is closer to the common Indo-Iranian tradition than is the Iranian branch [there may also have been a third branch, which would be represented by the Kafir languages, but nothing is known of it until just a few centuries ago]. This has nothing to do with a supposed Indic homeland of this common I-I tradition. It is a matter of linguistic and cultural relationship. And it does not imply that the Indic branch is older than the Iranian. Rather, it indicates that the Iranian branch, under the spell of Zarathustra, innovated certain religious and ideological features [roughly speaking, "Mazdaism"]. But linguistically the Gathas of Z are very old, perhaps even contemporary with the RV. Edwin Bryant, and perhaps others, observed that there is little evidence of foreign borrowings in Avestan, little evidence,that is, of a substratum. That is because the substratum with which the Iranians came into contact in NE Iran consisted of Indo-Iranians, Aryans like themselves, Aryans who hadn't yet seen the Indian sub-continent. Further to the east were other Aryans, some of whom got to the Indian sub-continent before the Vedic Aryans did. Picture layers upon layers of Aryans, moving slowly, unaware of having crossed any boundaries So, if we are going to talk about substratum influence on the Vedic Aryans, we must include not only the possibility of Dravidian and Munda substrata, but also of a pre-Vedic Aryan substratum, which arrived in India before the Vedic Aryans did. It is often pointed out in the secondary literature that an Aryan vs DAsa opposition in Vedic is too simple. It is. It is clear that Aryans [Indian and Iranian both] bickered among themselves rather frequently, rather like ourselves. Perhaps this answers your question? George Thompson From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Apr 13 16:57:46 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 18:57:46 +0200 Subject: More news about India Message-ID: <161227037659.23782.18012205017434127108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 00:46 11.04.98 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Members, >Does anyone have any idea about if this is some regular practice or a >single incident? > >I Omar >Temple > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 9:59:00 +0000 >From: Rajiv Mallikarjun - IRD >To: Irfan >Subject: More news Apr 11, 1998. > > >Are we living in the dark ages / pre-historic times ? > >Family sacrifices father, eats his flesh at Kali puja >In Varanasi, Ram >Sevak Chowhan's family beheaded him, ate his flesh and >danced around with his >blood smeared on their body. They also chopped off the tongues of his two > >daughters-in-law. >http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/apr/09sacri.htm > >Rgds >Rajiv Mallikarjun I read some years ago in The Economist (I think) that about a 100 people were "sacrificed" in India every year. Considering that India has a population of about 900 million people, I think the right reference here is not "history of religion" but psychopathology. Compare weird religious acts in Christian extremist sects, as well as other non-Christian extreme sects in the West. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Apr 14 17:25:33 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 17:25:33 +0000 Subject: [Announce] New book by Wujastyk Message-ID: <161227037663.23782.84563672829663342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm pleased to be able to announce a new book: Dominik Wujastyk, _The Roots of Ayurveda: Selections from Sanskrit Medical Writings_ (New Delhi: Penguin, 1998). Penguin Classics. ISBN 0-14-043680-4. Rs. 250. The book provides English translations of passages selected from the classical works of ayurveda, including Caraka, Susruta, Vagbhata, Kasyapa, Sarngadhara, and the Bower Manuscript, together with a historical instroduciton. There is a bibliography and an index of Sanskrit and English terms. I published the book in India because I wanted to reach Indian readers (which my last book, published in Holland, singularly failed to do). However, it should be available through any bookstore in the world which can order books from Penguin. Use the ISBN when (if) requesting the book. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU Tue Apr 14 21:37:16 1998 From: srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 17:37:16 -0400 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037665.23782.13268442498726716616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marianne Kropf asked: a) TEXTUAL REFERENCES: In this context I need help concerning textual references: [to point it out very clearly: I am not looking for jyotis.a sources] Who knows of passages out of the Veda Samhitas, which adress the navagraha (being at that time only seven) as deities? Hope this reply isn't too late... the following information is from the detailed sleevenotes written by Robert S.Gottlieb for a recording of the Carnatic composer MuttusvAmi Dikshitar's "navagraha" kritis. These sleevenotes are absolutely wonderful and contain tons of useful information on this subject. On this recording (Folkways Records Album No.FES 4131, 1981), a traditional Vedic scholar, Vazhutur Rajagopala Sarma, recites mantras from the YV Taittiriya Samhita and Brahmana, RV, appropriate to each graha, before the rendition of the corresponding Dikshitar kriti by the late Prof.S.Ramanathan. About these mantras, Robert Gottlieb says that "The mantras occur in a variety of texts, however only those sources which are most significant are cited." He also points out that the combinations of the separate texts comprise the pUjA mantras for a particular graha. Surya - TS 3.4.11.2 TB 3.5.2.3 ; RV 1.12.1 TS 3.1.4.1 Candra - TS 3.2.5.3 TB 2.5.8.6; RV 1.23.20; 10.9.6 TB 2.4.6.11; RV 1.164.41 AngAraka - TS 1.5.5.1; 4.4.4.1 TA 10.1.10; RV 1.22.15 TS 1.1.14.2 Budha - TS 4.7.13.5 TS 1.2.13.1 TS 1.2.13.3 BRhaspati - TS 1.8.22.2-3 TS 1.4.18.1 TS 4.2.8.2 S'ukra - TB 2.8.2.3-4; RV 7.4.1 TS 1.7.13.1 TS 1.6.12.1 S'ani - TB 1.2.1; 2.5.8.5; RV 10.9.4 TS 1.8.14.2; 3.2.5.6-7 TS 2.6.12.6 rAhu - TS 4.2.11.2 TS 1.5.3.1 TS 4.2.5.2-3 ketu - TS 7.4.20.1 TS 3.4.11.1 RV 6.6.7 The "literal" connection between many of the mantras given above and the corresponding graha is not clear... perhaps not surprising... but that these mantras are used in traditional Navagraha pUja/homa is very much a fact. Who can provide me with references to graha worship given in the puranas? In the agamic canons? Are there early S_ilpa texts that describe ikonographical details and material to be used for navagraha murtis? - One question I wish to answer: how far can we find references to a kind of worship of navagraha in the ancient textual sources as it is practiced nowadays? Do these references allow to say something on the beginning of a tradition where the planetary deities are referred to as (secondary) deities? Any hints are welcome. Gottlieb lists Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance, V.R.Dikshitar's "The PurAna Index" (3 vols, Madras 1955), Dowson's "A Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology and Religion" (London, 1972), V.Mani's "PurAnic Encyclopaedia" (Delhi 1975), among other items in his biblio... you may want to look thru these. 2) NAVAGRAHA TEMPLES: Who can provide me with information on further temples especially connected with navagraha and their ritual worship? As far a I know, there are in Andhra Pradesh, there seem to be at least one in Benares (which one?!), ... - it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomen. According to the book "Our Heritage" (authorless ! the blurb on one of the pages' corner says - conceptualized/designed/published by Sri.R.V.Raghavan for Sudakshina Trust, Bombay - 400025) some other temples where individual grahas are enshrined are sUrya - Modhera in Gujarat, and S'ani - Naydongri in Maharashtra. The book gives 9 temples in the Tanjore district as the navagraha kshetras for the Lord Mahalingeshvara of the famous temple at TiruviDaimarudUr. Apart from this, it lists other temples in and around TN whose deity is considerd as yajamAna for a particular planet like Candra - Tirupati angAraka - Pazhani budha - Madurai bRhaspati - TirucchendUr S'ukra - S'rirangam rAhu-ketu - kALahasthI -Srini. From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Apr 15 08:52:17 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 01:52:17 -0700 Subject: The Shiva Hypothesis (fwd) Message-ID: <161227037669.23782.6818379636746205499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sometime ago Dominik posted a message about the Shiva Hypothesis. I don't know whether this question has been asked: Does anyone know how these astronomical periods line up with the duration of the Vedic concepts of kalpa and praalaya? Which puraaNas, etc. would be best referenced for leads to an answer? Regards, Anshuman Pandey P.S. I've copied the message below. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:48:25 +0000 From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: The Shiva Hypothesis (fwd) INDOLOGY members of long standing will remember an unexpected posting to the group in January 1995 which was sent from McMurdo Station in Antarctica -- surely the most remote imaginable location for indological reflection. The author of that posting, Rolf Sinclair, now writes to us from the more temperate location outside Washington D.C. -- Dominik Wujastyk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:26:23 -0500 From: Rolf Sinclair/NSF Physics Division Subject: Re: fwd: The Shiva Hypothesis Dear Colleagues -- I would like to describe some recent work in astronomy that may interest you because it has led to the naming of an astronomical theory as the "Shiva Hypothesis". This theory describes an astronomical model for the seemingly periodic mass extinctions of species on Earth, and a subsequent "starting over" of the biological record. I would be grateful for your comments on the choice of "Shiva" to identify the hypothesis. I am not on this list, so please send any comments to me as well as to the list. The basic idea is this: the Sun is one of a very large number of stars that make up our galaxy -- the galaxy that is spread across the sky as the "Milky Way". (Outside our own galaxy we glimpse many other such collections of stars -- other galaxies -- making up the universe we observe. A good description is in the Encyclopedia Britannica, under "Galaxies".) Our own galaxy is disk-shaped and rotates like a giant pinwheel, with the Sun and the other stars joining in this rotation. As the Sun turns with the galaxy (taking some 220 million years for each rotation), it periodically oscillates back and forth through the plane of the galaxy -- an "up-and-down motion", perpendicular to the rotation, on a time scale of 26 to 30 million years. The planets (including the Earth) travel along with the Sun, like a brood of chicks with their mother hen. Each time the Sun (and of course the Earth) crosses the higher-density central plane of the Galaxy, it periodically encounters greatly increased interactions with other stars and with the small-scale interstellar debris, a lot of which we term comets. Michael Rampino (New York University), the author of recent papers on this subject(*), then asks: Could recurrent waves of impact by comets be responsible for the recurrent mass extinctions of species seen in the geologic record over many millions of years ? A few years ago such a suggestion would have seemed far-fetched, but recent evidence is converging on the conclusion that mass extinctions coincide with comet or asteroid impacts, and that periodic comet showers, triggered by the Solar System's motions through the Milky Way Galaxy may provide a general theory to explain impact-related mass extinctions. The cyclic extinctions are followed by explosive evolution of the surviving species that re-filled the many life niches emptied by the global catastrophe, so he has named this idea the "Shiva Hypothesis", after the Hindu deity of cyclic destruction and renewal. Like Shiva, the Hindu Destroyer/Creator, the cyclic impacts bring an end to one world, and allow the beginning of a new one. For example, it is now well established that an impact 65 million years ago ended the Mesozoic world, populated by giant dinosaurs and flying reptiles, and gave way to the modern world of mammals and birds. (*) A short version of Rampino's paper is at http://www.giss.nasa.gov/gpol/abstracts/96.RampinoHaggerty2.abs.html. A popular version is in: The Planetary Report, Vol. 18, No. 1, p. 6-11 (1998), and a longer, technical version in: Earth, Moon and Planets, v. 72, p. 441-460 (1996). An earlier paper is: "Shiva versus Gaia: Cosmic Effects on the Long-Term Evolution of the Biosphere": in "Scientists on Gaia", ed. S.H. Schneider and P. Boston, MIT press, Cambridge Mass, p. 382-391 (1991). Rolf Sinclair Division of Physics National Science Foundation rsinclai at nsf.gov --- End Forwarded Message --- ------------------------------------------------------------ Chris Wooff (C.Wooff at liv.ac.uk, ....mcsun!uknet!liv!C.Wooff) Sent with Simeon Alpha 6 Build 7 From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Apr 14 21:42:43 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 02:42:43 +0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037667.23782.12351173286115814177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:37 PM 4/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >The "literal" connection between many of the mantras given above >and the corresponding graha is not clear... perhaps not surprising... >but that these mantras are used in traditional Navagraha pUja/homa >is very much a fact. > The position I think is that if one does not find a mantra for particular deity, use the mantra in which a word corresponding to the name of the deity occurs. In the Hindu pantheon there are deities who are later additions. One cannot hope to find mantras corresponding to them in the veda. Either you have to write the mantras or assign them mantras by the above method. e.g., budha - udbudhya ^^^^ angAraka - agnirmUrdhA ^^^^ I do not know how they fix a particular m mantra when there are anumber mantras containing the required word. regards, sarma. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 15 14:03:04 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 09:03:04 -0500 Subject: Happy Solar New Year Message-ID: <161227037676.23782.1652892161872178436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> April 14, 1998 Happy Solar New Year ******************** Tamil, Malayalam, Punjab, Bengal, Sinhala, Thai, Khmer people celebrate New Year almost on the same date of Western calender, because they follow Solar calender. Tamil New Year occurs on 14th April mostly, once in a few years it happens on 13th April. This is related to Leap year of Gregorian calender. Read in a newspaper that Japan celebrates its New year on 14 April 1998. Does Japan follow Solar calender for New year computations? What other people follow Solar calender in India or elsewhere? Happy New Year, N. Ganesan From silk at WMICH.EDU Wed Apr 15 13:55:04 1998 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 09:55:04 -0400 Subject: Position (temp) So. Asian Religions, Oberlin College Message-ID: <161227037674.23782.1289917125015478462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded from H-ASIA > April 14, 1998 > >Temporary position (Fall 1998) South Asian Religions, Oberlin College >************************************************************************** >From: James Dobbins > >The Religion Department at Oberlin College has recently be authorized to make >a one-semester temporary appointment in South Asian Religions for the Fall >semester, 1998. > >James Dobbins, Chair >Religion Department >Oberlin College >fdobbins at oberlin.edu > >******************************************************** >Position Available >South Asian Religions >Oberlin College > >The Religion Department of Oberlin College invites applications for >a temporary, one-semester faculty position in the field of South >Asian Religions for the Fall semester of 1998, at the rank of >Assistant Professor or Instructor. The candidate should be trained >in South Asian Religions and prepared to teach a course on >traditional religions of India, an introduction to religion course, >and a seminar on some aspect of South Asian religions. > >Qualifications: Ph.D. or ABD. Please send letter of application, >CV, graduate transcripts, and at least three letters of reference, >to the Chairman, Department of Religion, Rice Hall, Oberlin College, >Oberlin, Ohio 44074, FAX (440) 775-8124, by May 10, 1998. >Applications received after that date may be considered until the >position is filled. AA/EOE > > >James Dobbins >Chair, Religion Department > >======================================================================== > Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Apr 15 14:10:24 1998 From: nrao at CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Nikhil Rao) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 10:10:24 -0400 Subject: Happy Solar New Year In-Reply-To: <01IVW5F0VHZ6001POQ@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037678.23782.8738128683062606452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> People from the Dakshina Kannada region in Karnataka also follow the solar (sauramana) calendar. On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > April 14, 1998 > > Happy Solar New Year > ******************** > > Tamil, Malayalam, Punjab, Bengal, Sinhala, Thai, Khmer people > celebrate New Year almost on the same date of Western calender, > because they follow Solar calender. > > Tamil New Year occurs on 14th April mostly, once in a few years > it happens on 13th April. This is related to Leap year of > Gregorian calender. > > Read in a newspaper that Japan celebrates its New year on > 14 April 1998. Does Japan follow Solar calender for > New year computations? What other people follow Solar > calender in India or elsewhere? > > Happy New Year, > N. Ganesan > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 15 09:47:17 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 10:47:17 +0100 Subject: [Announce] Berne job Message-ID: <161227037671.23782.4155433863161911022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Forwarded message Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 13:59:56 +0200 From: Christian Peter ****** Dear Sir/Madam It has been suggested that the following announcement may be of interest to list members: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Universitaet Bern An der Evangelisch-theologischen und der Philosophisch-historischen Fakultaet ist der Lehrstuhl fuer (allgemeine und/oder vergleichende) Religionswissenschaft auf den fruehest moeglichen Zeitpunkt wiederzubesetzen. Der Inhaber/die Inhaberin der Stelle soll Forschung und Lehre fuer Studierende beider Fakultaeten anbieten. Erwartet wird die (auch philologische) Qualifikation in Forschung und Lehre zu einer der grossen nichtchristlichen religioesen Traditionen. Erwuenscht sind zudem Lehr- und Forschungsschwerpunkte in einer systematischen Disziplin der Religionswissenschaft (z.B. Religionsanthropologie, Religionssoziologie) und/oder mit einem arealen Bezug (z.B. zu Sued- oder Suedostasien) sowie Interesse an innovativen Konzeptionen in Forschung und Lehre. Gesucht wird eine Persoenlichkeit aus den humanwissenschaften oder der Theologie mit Habilitation oder gleichweriger Qualifikation. Die Universitaet Bern strebt eine Erhoehung des Anteils von Frauen in akademischen Fuehrungspositionen an und fordert deshalb qualifizierte Wissenschaftlerinnen nachdruecklich auf, sich zu bewerben. Vor Einreichung der Bewerbungsunterlagen wird empfohlen, das Merkblatt "Religionswissenschaft" beim Dekanat der Evang.-theol. Fakultaet der Universitaet Bern Laenggassstr. 51 CH-3000 Bern 9 anzufordern. Bewerbungen mit Curriculum vitae, Verzeichnis der Publikationen und Angaben ueber bisherige Lehrtaetigkeit sind bis spaetestens 15.6.1998 zu richten an die Kantonale Erziehungsdirektion Amt fuer Hochschulen (2-230.7/96) Sulgeneckstrasse 70 CH-3005 Bern ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christian Peter Institute for the Science of Religion University of Berne Laenggassstrasse 51 CH-3000 Berne 9 Tel.: (+41) (0)31 631 35 81 Fax.: (+41) (0)31 631 35 51 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 15 23:24:35 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 18:24:35 -0500 Subject: Happy Solar New Year Message-ID: <161227037682.23782.4996347493377339870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What about Burma? What about Malaysia? What was the New Year's day in Indonesia before Islamicization? What is it in Bali? Just curious, N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 15 23:29:21 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 18:29:21 -0500 Subject: Happy Solar New Year Message-ID: <161227037684.23782.10057513661503845686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the calender followed in Indus culture? With the present state of archaeological knowledge, can we ascertain this? Any references on Indus valley civilization calender? I think Prof. Parpola has written some papers, Is that right? Regards, N. Ganesan From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Apr 15 23:18:09 1998 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 19:18:09 -0400 Subject: Happy Solar New Year In-Reply-To: <01IVW5F0VHZ6001POQ@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037680.23782.11945400748647707517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> They observe New Year on April 14 in Orissa too. It might have started there with the temple dedicated to Sun etc.(Konarka, 13th century AD).. Bijoy Misra On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > April 14, 1998 > > Happy Solar New Year > ******************** > > Tamil, Malayalam, Punjab, Bengal, Sinhala, Thai, Khmer people > celebrate New Year almost on the same date of Western calender, > because they follow Solar calender. > > Tamil New Year occurs on 14th April mostly, once in a few years > it happens on 13th April. This is related to Leap year of > Gregorian calender. > > Read in a newspaper that Japan celebrates its New year on > 14 April 1998. Does Japan follow Solar calender for > New year computations? What other people follow Solar > calender in India or elsewhere? > > Happy New Year, > N. Ganesan > From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 16 00:29:29 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 19:29:29 -0500 Subject: Happy Solar New Year Message-ID: <161227037688.23782.6086845885907214071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >Read in a newspaper that Japan celebrates its New year on >14 April 1998. Does Japan follow Solar calender for >New year computations? What other people follow Solar >calender in India or elsewhere? *I am a Japanese living in Japan for 53 years, but I have never *heard of selebrating 14 April as a new year day in Japan. Probably *there is some misunderstanding. Please tell me the source of *information. That is from a Tamil newspaper, Dhina Bhuumi. In an article about solar new year. This must be an error, as I understand from Dr. Yano. Is there a spring festival on April 14 in Japan? Regards, N. Ganesan From yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP Wed Apr 15 23:37:31 1998 From: yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 08:37:31 +0900 Subject: Happy Solar New Year Message-ID: <161227037686.23782.10487853732123329266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >Read in a newspaper that Japan celebrates its New year on >14 April 1998. Does Japan follow Solar calender for >New year computations? What other people follow Solar >calender in India or elsewhere? I am a Japanese living in Japan for 53 years, but I have never heard of selebrating 14 April as a new year day in Japan. Probably there is some misunderstanding. Please tell me the source of information. Michio YANO Kyoto Sangyo University yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/ From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 16 13:37:57 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 08:37:57 -0500 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037697.23782.13968206513095022953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is part of my reply to Ms. M. Kropf asked about a week ago. N. Ganesan ************************************************************************** *thank you for providing me with such an ammount of precious information *on the grahas. As the subject is quite new to me I cannot follow you in *all teh points mentioned and therefore I write my coments/questions step *by step: > *it seems to me interesting to see whether or not shrines for the > *grahas or at least graha-murtis placed in temples to be worshipped by > *devotees and daily cared for by priests are a rather southern phenomenon. > *- unfortunately, this book is not at my hand, I will find it - do you *have the bibliographical details with you? Please read: 1) C. Sivaramamurti, The art of India, H. N. Abrams, 1977 2) C. Sivaramamurti, Royal conquests and cultural migrations in South India and Deccan. Calcutta: Indian museum, 1954. 57 p., 14 leaves Read Richard H. Davis, Lives of Indian images, Princeton univ. press, 1997. Davis talks of Imperial Chola war booties to and from Kaveri delta. > I think this is true. C. Sivaramamurti explains this in his magnum opus, > Art of India. Chola daughters married away to Vengi Prince of Andhra; > their descendant Chodaganga Deva building Konarak. *- Konarak as other ancient sUrya temples seem to me quite tricky - their *roots going back to Vedic sources and a sun cult being compared to *similar traditions of other cultures. This involves a lot of difficult *questions: e.g. how far can the ancient exclusive sun cult be paralleled *with the later navagraha worship/ propitiation? The seven grahas *depicted are they ritually taken care for from the very beginnings? On *what purpose, if yes? do we have any textual reference to this question *concerning Konarak? Can you indicate me further material/ studies? Sivaramamurti clearly says in many occasions that Cholas start building the Suriyanar Koyil temple. Their daughters in Andhra and the Chola Princes' descendant, ChoDagangadeva builds Konark. I think navagraha worship as deities, namavalis is a southern tradition extended northwards. At the end of your research, pl. let me know. The beginnings of planetary worship are there not only in Vedic, but in classical sangam Tamil as well. See J. McKim Malville's paper too. I vaguely remember that the first Surya temple is built by Chola after a major astronomical event. (I think McKim is unaware of Sivaramamurti's works). > Seventh century CE saiva saint, Thirugnana Sambandhar > sings a beautiful decad to Siva seeking help for protection > when planets are doing harm. *This hymn seems to be a favorite selection for temple donation - in *shaivaite temples I saw it several times depicted at the wall somewhere *close th the navagraha mandapam. Only it always seemed to me rather an *expression of judging the navagraha rituals executed by woshippers as an *ill-tempted way of behaviour - as the 11 slokas composed by Sambandhar *state very clearly that the whole ado about the grahas is completely *superflue as soon as one discovers the right creed in Shiva ... I could *not really understand why, following this point of view, the grahas are *installed in those rather 'orthodoxe' Shaiva Siddhanta temples at all. The hymns are only to Siva. The planets' power are far inferior to Siva, acc. to Tevaram saints. Dr. Jayabarathi has explained beautifully in his writings. > Muthusvaami Dikshitar's navagraha kshetra krithis are > precise and packed, I have heard. Dikshitar knew very well > all the intricacies of jyothisa and mantra shastras. > Prof. V. Raghavan, Madras university must have written on > navagraha krithis, as he was always fond of Dikshitar. > May be Srini Pichumani or Vidyasankar Sundaresan will know > more on these master musical pieces. I can ask > Mrs. Chitra Dharmarajan, a student of D. K. Pattammal. > Pattammal, a master carnatic musdician, comes in the tradition of > Muthusvaami Dikshitar and his relatives - > Annasvami Dikshitar, Balusvami Dikshitar, > Subbarama Dikshitar, Ambi Shastri,... I wrote this from memory. Annasvami is wrong; Chinnasvami is the correct name. Also, Ambi Dikshitar - N. Ganesan *- to tell you straight away I have no idea of the musical tradition as I *am only referring to texts, source books, ritual manuals, informations *of priests and personal experiences. Nevertheless I would be thankful to *get more details as far as they can be understood without a deeper *knowledge of the specific musical tradition of teh Nyanmars. As far as I *know those compositions are, without being sung, of key value for the *ritual practice in many Shaivaite temples mainly in Tamil Nadu. Diiksitar wrote the krithis in Tamilnadu from the study of books, practices etc., existing there. > There is a medieval Sani Bhagavan Tottiram in tamil. > Reprinted several times by the three Saiva Siddhanta Adheenams > that is popular. ki. vaa. ja., student of UVS, has written a > book called navakkirakaGkaL (Alliance Publishers, Royapettah) *- is that book completely in Tamil? Is there any chance to get that text *translated into English medium? Could you maybe even help me to trace *that text? (if it is not too long, I have the possibility to get it *translated from Tamil even here...) This is a small medieval book in Tamil available in Roja Muttaiya Research Library, Madras. It is a rare tamil book collection bought and being supported partially by Univ. of Chicago. I am sure the three Saiva Siddhanta adheenam libraries in tanjore district and some in Madras also have this book (many reprints). If you get it, send it to me, I can translate it for you. canipakavan tOttiram cennai muttamiz viLakka accukkuuTam kALayutti, aavaNi, 1858, 10 p. [I will post to Indology a more complete list]. FROM YOUR SECOND MAIL: > Tiru Gnana Sambandhar's Tevaram hymn at TirunaLLaaRu temple. > Sambandhar lived in early Seventh century CE. > This pleads for Siva's protection from planetary wrath. *- here again I find it interesting to see that in a temple which is not *dedicated to Shiva but to Shani we find a hymn adressing Shiva as the *real dispeller of grace and as a 'fighter' against bad influences of the *grahas. Should I understand this as a kind of competition between *exclusive Shaivaite faith and other streams including the navagrahas in *their selection of deities (including grahas) being worth worshipping? This is a temple dedicated to Shiva. NOT to Shani. The stalapuraaNam links this temple with Shani. Shani's prominence is later. In Tevaram times, it is mainly a Shiva temple. S'ani and Nala story is very secondary then. > I don't think these are translated yet. > Got these songs from Univ. of Koeln web. - do you have the direct link to this source at Koeln? See the Indology home page at http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html Go to Institutions, Choose Germany, There click Institute of Indology and Tamil studies, there Indological resources, Tamil Text Thesarus .. OR, Directly at: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.e.html > > Sanskrit nAmAvalis on planetary will postdate 7th century CE. > Or, Am I wrong? - I can't tell you yet; if you should get any more concrete information, - pl. let me know. Pl. let me know. Many thanks. Sincerely, N. Ganesan My old posting on 27/jun/97 is attached. You can search for navagraha from the powerful Search utility provided at the Indology website. I am sure you will get something useful for your research. See the Indology home page at http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:15:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Navagraha worship 5/26/97 Navagraha Worship In South India ********************************** J. McKim Malville is interested in the evolution of planet worship in South India. He teaches somewhere in Colorado. I glanced thru' his paper once. He says the important Chola temple at Suuriyanaar Koyil, Thanjavur temple was built in 11th century after a major astronomical event over India. (eclipse) J. McKim Malville, Solar astronomy and temple traditions, Jl. of the Indian anthropological society, March 1988, vol. 23, no. 1, p. 17- I am sure he has few more writeups. Suuriyanaar Koyil used to be an important Saiva Siddhanta Adheenam. Thiruveezhimizhalai Sivagrayogin was a preceptor of the math who wrote extensively in Tamil and Sanskrit. I recollect C. Sivaramamurti's writings from one his large books. It goes something like this: Rajaraja Chola I marries his daughter to Vimaladitya Chalukya I of Vengi country in Andhra. Due to her, a big Surya temple came to be erectedin Andhra. Later, a descendent of that Chola Princess (Kundhavai Naachiyaar) builds Konarak Sun temple in Kalinga country. Chozha becomes ChoDa in the north. ChoDaganga Deva is the King's name. Longtime ago, Deborah Karumuthu Thiagarajan was interested in this field. Nowadays, she is busy saving Chettinad homes, crafts, artisans. See: D. Thiagarajan, The development of Surya imagery in the Tamil country in the seventh-twelfth centuries AD. 1985, 133 leaves. Microfiche 288, Van Pelt library, Univ. of Pennsylvania I am sure Dr. Martin Gantsen knows this book: Stephen Markel, Origins of the Indian planetary deities, Lewiston, NY: E. Melen, 1995 (from a PhD at UMich) I agree with Mr. Jayabarathi that there are many publications in Tamil. Many are devotional, stalapuranams, or astrological or uncritical. But a few exceptions do exist. There is a medieval "Sani Bhagavan Tottiram" (stotram) reprinted for atleast 150 years. Good poetry. K. V. Jagannathan, editor of Kalaimakal and disciple of U. V. Saminathaiyar, has a book giving an overview of Navagraha worship from Tamil and Sanskrit literatures. Printed by Alliance Publications, Mylapore. There are many Tamil books, few of them running into 1000s of poems/viruttams like kiiranuur naTaraajar's caatakaalangaaram and kumaaracuvaamiiyam by Viiravanallur Kumaracaami Tecikar, on astrology. The relationships between this genre of astrological literature in Tamil and Sanskrit has never been explored so far. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Thu Apr 16 14:28:20 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 10:28:20 -0400 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037699.23782.8787620423046126438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> @ @As far as I am aware, there has still been no posting with information @about the worship of the planets in `agamic' sources. Here are just @3 references. @ @Among the few surviving demonstrably early (i.e. known to writers of @the lineage of the 10th-century Kashmirian commentator Raamaka.n.tha II) @Tantras of the "Saiva Siddhaanta, the Kira.natantra (the earliest @MS of which is dated to 924 AD) devotes a brief chapter (15 verses) to @the topic: pa.tala 29. In the Devakottai edition of 1932 this is @given the title grahayaagavidhi and appears as the 17th chapter of the @Kriyaapaada. @ @A South Indian Saiddhaantika anthology of quotations culled from @Siddhaantatantras and Saiddhaantika paddhatis called the @Sakalaagama[saara]sa"ngraha devotes ten verses (411--422b) to @navagrahapuujaa, attributing them to the Kira.na. The verses in @question are not found in the Kira.na. (The @Sakalaagama[saara]sa"ngraha is transmitted with considerable @variation---as are a few other works of the same and similar @titles---in a number of South Indian MSS. The numeration I give is @that of the version published from Madras in 1974 by the South Indian @Archaka Sangham.) @ @The eclectic Saiddhaantika Tantra[saara]paddhati of (the supposedly @Keralan) Ii"saana"sivagurudeva gives `dhyaana"slokas' for all 9 grahas @in verses 7--15 of pa.tala 12 of its Kriyaapaada. @ @Doubtless other accounts could be found in other tantric sources, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @particularly in relatively late Siddhaantas transmitted ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @in the Tamil-speaking South, but since many are not published, and ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've a few questions: (1) What are the oldest sources(texts) of 'Kashmiri Saivism' ? (2) What are the oldest 'north indian' saiva siddhaanta sources ? (3) Are any of these source material available in english in libraries in north america ? (4) What exactly is meant by your words 'in relatively late Siddhaantas transmitted in the Tamil-speaking South' ? I'm interested in knowing what this 'relatively late' means in this context and what is meant by 'Tamil-speaking South'. Are you merely referring to a region or referring to Sanskrit and other non-tamil texts authored by people living in Tamil-speaking lands or Tamil texts which are supposed to be derived or translated from other languages or other traditions (north indian) and transmitted? [ I'm sure there are better ways of formulating my questions :-) ] Many thanks selvaa ______________________ C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar Waterloo, Ontario, Canada @since even those published have appeared only in relatively @inaccessible South Indian editions, probably the only place to find @them all would be the French Institute in Pondicherry, which houses a @vast collection of manuscripts and books of the "Saiva Siddhaanta. @Dominic Goodall. @ From WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA Thu Apr 16 11:26:15 1998 From: WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA (Charles Wikner) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 13:26:15 +0200 Subject: SKT font bugs and fixes on CTAN Message-ID: <161227037690.23782.9009465494126571318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, For users of the SKT-series of devanagari fonts: Ten bug reports and fixes have been added to the \language\sanskrit subdirectory on CTAN. A brief description of the bugs are: BUG01: Added feature: pass the five characters [`!'] through to roman from within {\skt }. BUG02: Improve treatment of sa.myoga "gj~n", e.g. in samyagj~naana. BUG03: Column separators misplaced in pages 23 thru 35 of docs. BUG04: Poor sa.myoga vertical alignment in bold and feint devanaagarii. BUG05: Svarita accent fouls the bindu above ~m with option 47 enabled. BUG06: The preprocessor program exits with code 1 instead of code 0 when there are no errors. BUG07: Newer versions of LaTeX than I have available (1995/06/01) complain about the use of accents and <^>, specifically in producing the docs. BUG08: Version 2 of relsize.sty (Mar 15, 1995) gives warning messages that the size requested is too small when using SaamaVeda accents in transliteration. BUG09: Nasalised-l, -v, -y use wrong diacritic in transliteration. BUG10: Problems using SKT with fragile LaTeX commands, e.g. \markboth. The changes fortunately do not affect the font files, but affect skt.sty and skt.c (which will need re-compiling). Regards, Charles Wikner. From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Thu Apr 16 13:01:23 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 14:01:23 +0100 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities In-Reply-To: <199804110932.RAA14795@relay13.jaring.my> Message-ID: <161227037692.23782.3832609537200218958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >>Who can provide > >>me with references to graha worship given in the puranas? In the agamic > >>canons? As far as I am aware, there has still been no posting with information about the worship of the planets in `agamic' sources. Here are just 3 references. Among the few surviving demonstrably early (i.e. known to writers of the lineage of the 10th-century Kashmirian commentator Raamaka.n.tha II) Tantras of the "Saiva Siddhaanta, the Kira.natantra (the earliest MS of which is dated to 924 AD) devotes a brief chapter (15 verses) to the topic: pa.tala 29. In the Devakottai edition of 1932 this is given the title grahayaagavidhi and appears as the 17th chapter of the Kriyaapaada. A South Indian Saiddhaantika anthology of quotations culled from Siddhaantatantras and Saiddhaantika paddhatis called the Sakalaagama[saara]sa"ngraha devotes ten verses (411--422b) to navagrahapuujaa, attributing them to the Kira.na. The verses in question are not found in the Kira.na. (The Sakalaagama[saara]sa"ngraha is transmitted with considerable variation---as are a few other works of the same and similar titles---in a number of South Indian MSS. The numeration I give is that of the version published from Madras in 1974 by the South Indian Archaka Sangham.) The eclectic Saiddhaantika Tantra[saara]paddhati of (the supposedly Keralan) Ii"saana"sivagurudeva gives `dhyaana"slokas' for all 9 grahas in verses 7--15 of pa.tala 12 of its Kriyaapaada. Doubtless other accounts could be found in other tantric sources, particularly in relatively late Siddhaantas transmitted in the Tamil-speaking South, but since many are not published, and since even those published have appeared only in relatively inaccessible South Indian editions, probably the only place to find them all would be the French Institute in Pondicherry, which houses a vast collection of manuscripts and books of the "Saiva Siddhaanta. Dominic Goodall. From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Thu Apr 16 13:18:25 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 14:18:25 +0100 Subject: Jaina Kaara.naikaantavaada? In-Reply-To: <199804110932.RAA14795@relay13.jaring.my> Message-ID: <161227037695.23782.5453197714056394648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should like to find corroborative evidence for Raamaka.n.tha's interpretation of Nare"svarapariik.sa 1:3cd: `vyavasthaapayitu.m "sakyo naayamekaantavaadibhi.h' (`This [scil. worldly activity (vyavahaara)] cannot be accounted for by ekaantavaadins.'). Raamaka.n.tha, who may not be familiar with all the positions that Sadyojyoti.h attacks, identifies this as a reference to Jaina thinkers who believe that effects come about from a single `cause' that is a composite bundle of all the conditions that precede them, for his introduction to the above-cited hemistich is as follows: atha kim anena kriyaakaarakavi"se.savaadena? saamagriilak.sa.naa hi biijaadayo 'rthaas tattadavasthaayuktaa eva vi"si.s.tam a"nkuraadikaarya.m praagbhaavamaatre.na kaara.natayaa kari.syanti, iti kaara.naikaantavaadino jainaa.h| tad ayukta.m yata.h:--- `And if [someone interjects]: what need is there of a theory of particular causal factors that determine an action? For entities [that bring about effects], such as seeds, which make up a composite bundle of all [that is necessary to generate a given effect], will only in certain particular states generate their particular effect---a sprout, for example---being causes simply by virtue of existing before [their effects]. This the Jainas who hold the one-sided view [of the kaarakas] that they are [all just] causes [maintain].' Can someone give me any references to a discussion of such a Jaina point of view? Dominic Goodall. From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Apr 17 04:43:51 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 21:43:51 -0700 Subject: SKT font bugs and fixes on CTAN In-Reply-To: <01IVXSWGOED4A4L8SB@nacdh4.nac.ac.za> Message-ID: <161227037703.23782.5847223257417350166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, For those interested, a DOS executable of Charles's SKT preprocessor is available from . This executable has been updated with the bug fixes. In addition to the executable, files in the archive include the updated and fixed skt.c, skt.sty, sktdoc.skt, and a PostScript version of sktdoc.skt. Regards, Anshuman Pandey On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Charles Wikner wrote: > Greetings, > > For users of the SKT-series of devanagari fonts: > > Ten bug reports and fixes have been added to the \language\sanskrit > subdirectory on CTAN. > > A brief description of the bugs are: > > BUG01: Added feature: pass the five characters [`!'] through to > roman from within {\skt }. > > BUG02: Improve treatment of sa.myoga "gj~n", e.g. in samyagj~naana. > > BUG03: Column separators misplaced in pages 23 thru 35 of docs. > > BUG04: Poor sa.myoga vertical alignment in bold and feint devanaagarii. > > BUG05: Svarita accent fouls the bindu above ~m with option 47 enabled. > > BUG06: The preprocessor program exits with code 1 instead of code 0 > when there are no errors. > > BUG07: Newer versions of LaTeX than I have available (1995/06/01) > complain about the use of accents and <^>, specifically > in producing the docs. > > BUG08: Version 2 of relsize.sty (Mar 15, 1995) gives warning messages > that the size requested is too small when using SaamaVeda accents > in transliteration. > > BUG09: Nasalised-l, -v, -y use wrong diacritic in transliteration. > > BUG10: Problems using SKT with fragile LaTeX commands, e.g. \markboth. > > The changes fortunately do not affect the font files, but affect skt.sty > and skt.c (which will need re-compiling). > > Regards, > Charles Wikner. > > From alicin at TESEO.IT Fri Apr 17 08:10:10 1998 From: alicin at TESEO.IT (arcangelo) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 10:10:10 +0200 Subject: help Message-ID: <161227037707.23782.14165110115859086539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am a student of philosophy at the Univeristy of Bari, Italy. I am working at my graduation thesis in History of Science. I would like to carry out an historical research into the approach that western medicine have had in this century with the therapeutic potentialities of Hata Yoga (especially Iyengar method). I am looking for a bibliography about the relations between Hata Yoga and the Medicine, from the medical point of view. I also need general references to doctors who have set up again their therapeutic work through the comparison with Hata yoga. As I study philosophy, I am especially interested in the paradigmatic changes that belong to the comparison of medicine with hata Yoga; I am interested as well in social implications, as for example the teaching programs of Iyengar Yoga in the U.K. at school (this is a known matter, but I have not been able to find any material about it). I have made inquiries about that but unfortunately they have not been successful. I hope you will suggest me a bibliography or further information about that. Thank you very much, Arcangelo Licinio via gentile 55-e 70126 Bari Italy From mitra at AECOM.YU.EDU Fri Apr 17 14:45:51 1998 From: mitra at AECOM.YU.EDU (Joydeep Mitra) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 10:45:51 -0400 Subject: When, how and by whose influence did Benaras develop and has..... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980417152414.006c6728@popix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227037716.23782.8012467842839891561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When, how and by whose influence did Benaras start to develop and has emerged as the most important place in hinduism? -Joydeep. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Apr 17 08:56:31 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 10:56:31 +0200 Subject: contact information requested In-Reply-To: <199804170404.OAA17209@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227037709.23782.11701105070690051357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Indologists, > >Can anyone help me to contact > >1) Monika Thiel-Horsmann (she has changed her name now, but I don't know >the new one). > >merci d'avance, >Adrian Burton Maybe Mrs. Thiel-Horstmann is identical with Prof. Dr. Monika Boehm-Tettelbach, Heidelberg? Ask: Suedasieninstitut der Universitaet Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg, Germany Tel. -49-6221-562900 (Fax: 564998). Regards, Georg v. Simson From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri Apr 17 10:34:25 1998 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 11:34:25 +0100 Subject: Harindranath Chattopadhyaya Message-ID: <161227037711.23782.16104611998370400792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My friend and colleague Dr Jayandra Soni sent me the following message in the hope that someone will be able to help him. ------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht / Forwarded message ------- Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:23:11 +0200 To: steiner From: Jay Soni Subject: Harindranath Chattopadhyaya Dear Roland, I am collecting any available material on and by Harindranath Chattopadhyaya (1898-1990). This poet-philosopher, politician and artist is famous, among other things, for his Quatrains of the Curd Seller (1959), long out of print, and even some of acquaintances were unsuccessful in locating a copy for me. I was wondering if you could also pass on this request to your friends in the Liverpool list. Perhaps someone there also may be able to help me. With thanks, Jay Dr Jayandra Soni Philipps University Marburg Department of Indology Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6F D-35032 Marburg Germany. Telephone: +49-6421-28 4942 Telefax: +49-6421-28 4995 Email: soni at mailer.uni-marburg.de From barathi at PC.JARING.MY Fri Apr 17 05:52:04 1998 From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 13:52:04 +0800 Subject: navagraha worshipped as deities Message-ID: <161227037705.23782.6142285008299817796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:37 AM 4/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >This is part of my reply to Ms. M. Kropf asked about a week ago. > >N. Ganesan >************************************************************************** -------------cut > >> There is a medieval Sani Bhagavan Tottiram in tamil. >> Reprinted several times by the three Saiva Siddhanta Adheenams >> that is popular. ki. vaa. ja., student of UVS, has written a >> book called navakkirakaGkaL (Alliance Publishers, Royapettah) Dear Ganesan(Deary me-which Ganesan?), Is this the one that you are looking for? This was sent to Tamil.net by Dr. Swaminathan of Los Angeles because of the Shanip PeyaRchi. It was transliterated, using Murasu. I hope it came out well. Do you need a translation for this ? Regards Jayabarathi > \(bm)chani pakavaan thuthi =============== thEvareN tichaikkathipar chiththarotu kimpurutar mUvar munivar muthalOrai-mEviyuRun- thaaraNin-tha maarpan chani pakavaan kathai pukalak kaaraNin-tha yaanaimukan kaappu. aathi vEthaan-tha muthalaRiya nyaanam ain-thezuththinut poruLai yayan maalotum chOthi chiRRam palaththilaati n-inRa chutaroLiyai n-I pitiththa thOshaththaalE paathimathi chataikkaNiya aravam pUNap pathiyizakkach chutalai thaniR paatiyaata chaathiyilaa vEtanech chiRthinna vaiththaay chaniyanE kaakamERum thampiraanE. vElavanai vEngkai maramaakkivaiththaay viRakukattu chokkarthamai viRka vaiththaay maaliniyai yuralOtu kattuviththaay vaLLithanaik kuRavaRathu vanaththil vaiththaay kaalanai maarkkaNtanukkaa aranuthaiththa kaaraNamum n-I pitiththa karumaththaalE chaalavunai yaanthozuthe nenaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. manjchu thavaza yOththiyil vaaz thachan-tharen makkaLiyum vanavaacha maakki vaiththaay panjchavarkaL chUthinaal pathiyizan-thu panjchu patum paataivarpatach cheyviththaay enjchilaa varich chan-thiran peNtaiviRRE izikulaththi latimaiyuRa ichaiya vaiththaay thanjchamena vunaippaNin-thE nenaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. aNta maayirath thettumarachu cheytha vatal chUra pathmanaiyu matakki vaiththaay maNtalaththai yaaNta n-aLach chakravarththi manaiviyoru vana mathani lalaiyach cheythaay viNtalaththai paanukO panRannaalE ven-thaNalaaych chUrarai veruvach cheythaay theNtanittE nen- n-aaLumenaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. aNtarkOn mEniyiR kaNNaakki viththaay ayan chiraththai vayiravanaa laRukka vaiththaay thiNtiRaL koL kauthamanaa lakalikai thaan chilaiyaaka vEchaapa muRavE cheythaay thaNta ELa n-akaiyirathi maaran Rannaich changkaranaar n-ukal viziyiR Ranal cheyviththaay chaNtamilaa thunai thozuthE nenaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. paarulavu parithiyaip palluthira vaiththaay panjchavarkku thUthu pIthaamparanai vaiththaay thaakulavu vaalichchuk rIvan remmaith thaarayinaaR RIraatha chamar cheyviththaay chUranenu milangkairaa vaNanRan thangkai chUrppanaki mUkku mulai thuNi cheyviththaay thaaraNiyu maNi maarpaa venaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. chukranRan kaNNizan-thaan langkaiyaaNtu thulangkum raavaNan chirangkaNtikka vIzn-thaan mikka pukaziraNiyanRaal vIRazin-thaan viLangku thiri puraathikaLum ven-thu maaNtaar chakkaraththaaluta laRun-thaan chalan-thiranRaan thaarukaa chUranumE chamaril maaNtaan thakkan mikach chiramizan-thaanin ROshaththaaR chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. an-tha muLa aingkaran kompaRavE cheythaay aRumunivar manaivikaL kaRpaziyach cheythaay chan-thiranRan kalaiyazin-thu thazaikkachcheythaay changkaranaip pichchai thaanetukkach cheythaay than-thimukach chULanuyir thaLarach cheythaay chaarangka tharan karaththaith thaRikka cheythaay chan-thathamu munaippaNivE nenaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. chIthai thaniyiraavaNanaaR chiRai cheyviththaay thEvarkaLai chUranaaR chiRai cheyviththaay maathu thurOpathai thuyilai vaangkuviththaay makEchchuranai yumaipiriyum vakai cheythaay pOthilayan ruLiRRavaLaip pUtti vaiththaay pothikai yinalakaththiyanaip porun-thach cheythaay thaathuchEr malar maarpaavenaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. appar thamai karungkallOtalaiyiR chErththaay aranatiyin muyalakanai yatangkachcheythaay cheppu maaNikkar thamai chithaiyilittaay shriraamanai machcha vuru vetukkachcheythaay oppilanumaan vaali loLi thIyittaay olikatalinanjchaiyaran uNNa vaiththaay thappilaa thunai thozuthE nenaith thotaathE chaniyanE kaakamERun- thampiraanE. n-IrinaiyuNtezu mEka vaNNaa pORRi n-etun-thapaththilaRu malak kaNNaa pORRi chUriyanRan thavaththil van-tha paalaa pORRi thulangku n-ava kirakaththuN mElaa pORRi kaariyenpavar kaLupakaaraa pORRi kaachiniyiR kIrththi peRRa thIraa pORRi mUri koLun-Oy mukamaa mutavaa pORRi.\(em) >*- is that book completely in Tamil? Is there any chance to get that text >*translated into English medium? Could you maybe even help me to trace >*that text? (if it is not too long, I have the possibility to get it >*translated from Tamil even here...) > >This is a small medieval book in Tamil available in Roja Muttaiya >Research Library, Madras. It is a rare tamil book collection bought and >being supported partially by Univ. of Chicago. I am sure the three >Saiva Siddhanta adheenam libraries in tanjore district and >some in Madras also have this book (many reprints). >If you get it, send it to me, I can translate it for you. > >canipakavan tOttiram >cennai >muttamiz viLakka accukkuuTam >kALayutti, aavaNi, 1858, 10 p. >[I will post to Indology a more complete list]. > ============================================================== From adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Apr 17 04:04:37 1998 From: adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 14:04:37 +1000 Subject: contact information requested Message-ID: <161227037701.23782.7240264299893419456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists, Can anyone help me to contact 1) Monika Thiel-Horsmann (she has changed her name now, but I don't know the new one). 2) Someone from SOAS who knows something about the microfilming of temple records from Brindavan. I am looking for a name, a telephone number, mailing address, and/ or an e-mail address..... merci d'avance, Adrian Burton From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Apr 17 18:58:29 1998 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 14:58:29 -0400 Subject: Summer Intensive Sanskrit Class at Michigan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037720.23782.12473533007112487572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists: The University of Michigan is planning to teach an INTENSIVE BEGINNING SANSKRIT course from June 28 - August 14. The class will be taught by Professor Madhav Deshpande. It will meet 12 hours each week for 7 weeks. Some financial assistance is available for students. Please ask interested students to contact Jennifer Eshelman (as soon as possible) of the Department of Asian Languages and Cultures at the University of Michigan: eshelman at umich.edu Phone (734) 936-3915 MADHAV DESHPANDE From bq8 at MAIL.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Apr 17 15:24:14 1998 From: bq8 at MAIL.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Dr. Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 15:24:14 +0000 Subject: contact information requested In-Reply-To: <199804170404.OAA17209@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227037713.23782.7877419457038417347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:04 17.04.98 +1000, you wrote: > Indologists, > >Can anyone help me to contact > >1) Monika Thiel-Horsmann (she has changed her name now, but I don't know >the new one). The name of Monika Thiel-Horstmann (previously) is now M. Boehm-Tettelbach. Her e-mail address is an9 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de > >2) Someone from SOAS who knows something about the microfilming of temple >records from Brindavan. > >I am looking for a name, a telephone number, mailing address, and/ or an >e-mail address..... > >merci d'avance, >Adrian Burton > Best regards, VTh --------------------------------- Dr. Volker Thewalt LaserSatz Thewalt fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From fo5a006 at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Fri Apr 17 17:01:25 1998 From: fo5a006 at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Anne MacDonald) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 18:01:25 +0100 Subject: NGMPP In-Reply-To: <01IVWRAML30Y002FKY@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037718.23782.592689379520002257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members of the List: Please note that all email inquiries to the Hamburg side of the NGMPP regarding manuscript title searches, microfilm reel-number information, etc. should be directed to either of the following addresses (and not to the address Fo5a006 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de which was previously given on this list): Fo8a002 at uni-hamburg.de macd at rrz.uni-hamburg.de Regards, Susmita Mallick, Anne MacDonald ______________________ Anne MacDonald Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project Institute for India and Tibet, University of Hamburg Neue Rabenstrasse 3, 20354 Hamburg, Germany fax: 49-40-4123-6267 email: macd at rrz.uni-hamburg.de From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 18 03:07:46 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 20:07:46 -0700 Subject: A question about Urdu poetry Message-ID: <161227037722.23782.3688606504115383059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I would like to know if Urdu poetry has the equivalents of the various "alamkAra" in samskrt and samskrt derived languages i.e yamaka, prAsa, atizayokti etc. I know there are verses in urdu that clearly are examples of the alamkaras given in the previous line but am not sure if they technically are classified as such in Urdu. In case the classifications exist, I would like to know as to where Urdu has adopted the classification from i.e. is it from the samskrtic source or is it from farsi.(I'm assuming that farsi has some such classification that would parallel the samskrt alamkAra). Any pointers, hints will be deeply appreciated. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Apr 18 13:23:01 1998 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 09:23:01 -0400 Subject: A question about Urdu poetry In-Reply-To: <19980418030746.19267.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227037732.23782.5485988916769010144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Urdu poetics is an area in which I have done a fair amount of work-- cf *Nets of Awareness: Urdu Poetry and Its Critics* (U Cal 1994)-- and am currently doing more. If you read Urdu, the work of Shamsur Rahman Faruqi, and above all his four-volume tour de force *Shi`r-e shor angez* (New Delhi: Bureau for the Promotion of Urdu, 1990-94), an intikhab and sharh of the poetry of Mir, would be the best single source I know. cordially, Fran Pritchett On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, S Krishna wrote: > Dear List Members, > > I would like to know if Urdu poetry has the equivalents of the various > "alamkAra" in samskrt and samskrt derived languages i.e yamaka, > prAsa, atizayokti etc. I know there are verses in urdu that clearly > are examples of the alamkaras given in the previous line but am not sure > if they technically are classified as such in Urdu. > > In case the classifications exist, I would like to know as to where > Urdu has adopted the classification from i.e. is it from the samskrtic > source or is it from farsi.(I'm assuming that farsi has some such > classification that would parallel the samskrt alamkAra). > > Any pointers, hints will be deeply appreciated. > > Regards, > Krishna > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > From mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK Sat Apr 18 08:50:47 1998 From: mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK (Margo Romberg) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 09:50:47 +0100 Subject: learning sanskrit Message-ID: <161227037725.23782.14774647399053019320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for some advice as one who wishes to learn Sanskrit in the relative comfort of my own home. I have the comparative advantage of a degree in Classics and a deep love of Classical Greek. My interest is caused by my study of yoga, particularly Patanjali's Yoga Sutras and Swatmarama's Hatha Yoga Pradipika. (My copies of these have devanaagari script, Roman transliteration and translation) I have bought Coulson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit, but it looks heavy going for a complete beginner, even one familiar with Classical Greek. I have downloaded Charles Wikner's "Sanskrit Introductory" and am working through it. I find it extremely helpful, particularly for getting to grips with the devanaagari script. However, I can see that when I have finished working through Wikner, Coulson will still be rather difficult to work on (especially since my time at present is pretty limited). Following Wikner's advice on further reading I have ordered Hart's Rapid Sanskrit Method and look forward to receiving it. Now my questions: 1) Are there any fairly easy texts that I can work on in conjunction with Hart, either in printed form or available on the Internet? 2) Are there any courses in Sanskrit in the UK that I could make use of as self-study courses? (I live in Dundee, Scotland, by the way, some distance from the nearest university - Edinburgh - that has a Department teaching Sanskrit.) Any advice or suggestions from list members will be very gratefully received. Best wishes, Margo von Romberg From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Sat Apr 18 17:15:56 1998 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 10:15:56 -0700 Subject: learning sanskrit In-Reply-To: <35392774.309@iprolink.ch> Message-ID: <161227037736.23782.14619827816117155474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Margo, You might be interested in the publications and cassettes put out by the American Sanskrit Institute. Vyas Houston is the rather well-known director of this school and he often gives seminars and intensives. You can look at the February 1996 edition of the Yoga Journal for a personal account of how he does his Yoga Sutra intensives. I have used his Yoga Sutra handbook for teaching purposes and think it useful. Jan Brzezinski From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Sat Apr 18 17:25:05 1998 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 10:25:05 -0700 Subject: Money Message-ID: <161227037738.23782.7153682364044751664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear scholars, In doing some translation of 16th century Bengali material, I am encountering the use of the term mudra as a unit of money. Occasionally, the word is prefixed with raupya- or rupaka-. The term mohar is used to indicate a larger unit of money, gold coins. Smaller units are measured in terms of cowries (kaRi). I find it silly translationg that someone's income was 800,000 coins a year. Is rupees a valid term for that time and period? Was the Bengali word TAkA ( Sorry, I forgot to include the address, etc. American Sanskrit Institute 73 Four Corners Road, Warwick, N.Y. 10990 Tel: 1-800-484-7112 (1008) 914-986-8652 fax: 914-978-7097 You may try communicating with the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan in London, as well. ---------- > Dear Margo, > > You might be interested in the publications and cassettes put out by the > American Sanskrit Institute. Vyas Houston is the rather well-known director of > this school and he often gives seminars and intensives. You can look at the > February 1996 edition of the Yoga Journal for a personal account of how he > does his Yoga Sutra intensives. I have used his Yoga Sutra handbook for > teaching purposes and think it useful. > > Jan Brzezinski From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Apr 18 20:19:59 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 13:19:59 -0700 Subject: [Forward] Manuscripts in New York City. Message-ID: <161227037741.23782.16043488180099879782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following message is from the Sanskrit Mailing List ad might be of interest to members of INDOLOGY. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:08:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Acharya Arvind Readers: I have made several attempts to have some light thrown on a bunch of palm leaf manuscripts that I have inherited. Can someone help me? Alternatively, can someone guide me to the right newsgroup? I have 70 bundles, nearly 30 of them are complete books. Only one of them has been identified, it is the Shree Bhashyam of Shree Ramanujacharya. With the exception of two which are written in Tamil script, the rest are written in Telugu script, though the language is Sanskrit. I live in New York City. I will gladly show them to anyone who is nearby or who can come here. Arvind Acharya Acharya_Arvind at bah.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Apr 18 11:40:23 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 13:40:23 +0200 Subject: learning sanskrit Message-ID: <161227037727.23782.5550098897643497903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Margo von Romberg wrote: >My interest is caused by my study of yoga, particularly Patanjali's Yoga >Sutras and Swatmarama's Hatha Yoga Pradipika. (My copies of these have >devanaagari script, Roman transliteration and translation) I have bought >Coulson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit, but it looks heavy going for a complete >beginner, even one familiar with Classical Greek. I have downloaded >Charles Wikner's "Sanskrit Introductory" and am working through it. I find >it extremely helpful, particularly for getting to grips with the >devanaagari script. However, I can see that when I have finished working >through Wikner, Coulson will still be rather difficult to work on >(especially since my time at present is pretty limited). Following >Wikner's advice on further reading I have ordered Hart's Rapid Sanskrit >Method and look forward to receiving it. > >Now my questions: > >1) Are there any fairly easy texts that I can work on in conjunction with >Hart, either in printed form or available on the Internet? I don't know anything you could use in conjunction with Hart, but in addition to what you have already found, I would make the following suggestions: You may find the following book useful: Walter Harding Maurer, "The Sanskrit Language. An Introductory Grammar and Reader", Curzon Press 1995. It contains a number of graded reading exercises that are fairly simple. The only weakness is that the exercises have not been translated. You may still find it useful. You could furthermore read the prose sections of the Mahabharata in connection with van Buitenen's translation: Mbh I.3.1ff; 3.190ff. These texts are easy. Lanman's reader contains a number of fairly easy texts with comments. The selections from the Hitopadesha are good for beginners. You might want a copy of a the translation. The major upanishads have been translated by Patrick Olivelle recently. You could read the Skt. text in conjunction with his translation. Upanishadic language is not too difficult. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Sat Apr 18 12:52:13 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 13:52:13 +0100 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta In-Reply-To: <199804161428.KAA00177@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227037730.23782.6857969215530561121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Response to questions about the "Saiva Siddhaanta Assertions in secondary (and primary) literature to the effect that there are 28 basic Siddhaantatantras are common. Early lists of the names of these (and of other related tantras) survive, and manuscripts (almost all from Nepal, Kashmir or southern India) transmitting texts with these names survive. The texts, all in Sanskrit, vary considerably in tone, style, subject-matter, theology, etc. Some are transmitted both in southern India and in the north (e.g. Kira.na, Mata"ngapaarame"svara, M.rgendra, Svaayambhuvasuutrasa"ngraha, Sarvaj~naanottara); a few now survive only in northern manuscripts, but used to be quoted by Southern authors (e.g. Moha"suurottara/cuu.dottara); by far the largest number are transmitted exclusively in southern manuscripts (e.g. Kaara.na, Ajita, Raurava, Diipta, Kaamika, A.m"sumat, Yogaja, Maku.ta, Suprabheda). In this last group alone are found tantras whose focus is on temple ritual and tantras in which the influence of Vedaantic Advaita is marked. The formative thinkers of the school---Sadyojyoti.h, Naaraaya.naka.n.tha, Raamaka.n.tha II---were dualists, and their works are not concerned with public temple worship (paraarthapuujaa). The suspicion is therefore natural that some tantras in this last group may be compositions that postdate those thinkers. (It seems not unlikely that the once pan-Indian and anti-Vedic "Saiva Siddhaanta should in this milennium and in South India have, on the one hand, compromised with the prevailing orthodoxy and, on the other, should have seen the need to teach ritual for a thriving temple culture.) It might be thought tendentious, however, to argue just from content and theology that certain tantras must be late. Incontrovertible, though, are the following three kinds of evidence:--- 1) a tantra's being transmitted not just in South Indian, but also in early Nepalese and/or Kashmirian manuscripts. 2) the existence of substantial attributed quotations by demonstrably early authors that are still traceable in the extant work that bears the same name 3) the survival of early commentaries. Using these criteria we can arrive at a (shortish) list of pre-tenth-century Siddhaantas. These too are disparate in theology and style and may have been composed over a number of centuries and in widely separated parts of India. The problems of the stratigraphy of the Saiddhantika canon are adverted to in the more recent articles of Mme. Brunner (e.g. `The Four Paadas of "Saivaagamas', pp.260--78 in The Journal of Oriental Research, Madras 1986--92) and in Professor Sanderson's `The Doctrine of the Maaliniivijayottaratantra', an article in edited by Teun Goudriaan (SUNY 1992). (The same article, by the way, shows how difficult it is to talk about `Kashmiri Saivism' as though it were a single and entirely separate tradition and in part answers your question about its earliest sources.) A fuller discussion and a presentation of some evidence is to be found in my own book (in press) esp. on pp.xxxvi--xlvii:--- Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's Commentary on the Kira.natantra---volume I: chapters 1--6---critical edition and annotated translation. (Publications du de'partement d'indologie 86.1). pp. cxxv, 487. Dominic Goodall From cponcet at IPROLINK.CH Sat Apr 18 22:21:40 1998 From: cponcet at IPROLINK.CH (Charles) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 15:21:40 -0700 Subject: learning sanskrit Message-ID: <161227037734.23782.12896074369497176577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Margo Romberg wrote: > > I am looking for some advice as one who wishes to learn Sanskrit in the > relative comfort of my own home. I have the comparative advantage of a > degree in Classics and a deep love of Classical Greek. > > My interest is caused by my study of yoga, particularly Patanjali's Yoga > Sutras and Swatmarama's Hatha Yoga Pradipika. (My copies of these have > devanaagari script, Roman transliteration and translation) I have bought > Coulson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit, but it looks heavy going for a complete > beginner, even one familiar with Classical Greek. I have downloaded > Charles Wikner's "Sanskrit Introductory" and am working through it. I find > it extremely helpful, particularly for getting to grips with the > devanaagari script. However, I can see that when I have finished working > through Wikner, Coulson will still be rather difficult to work on > (especially since my time at present is pretty limited). Following > Wikner's advice on further reading I have ordered Hart's Rapid Sanskrit > Method and look forward to receiving it. > > Now my questions: > > 1) Are there any fairly easy texts that I can work on in conjunction with > Hart, either in printed form or available on the Internet? > > 2) Are there any courses in Sanskrit in the UK that I could make use of as > self-study courses? (I live in Dundee, Scotland, by the way, some distance > from the nearest university - Edinburgh - that has a Department teaching > Sanskrit.) > > Any advice or suggestions from list members will be very gratefully received. > Best wishes, > Margo von Romberg If you want a very traditional and at the same time pleasant type of teaching, with cassettes for pronunciation and the sort, go to http://www.concentric.net/~Sanskrit/ Prof. Mohan is a superb teacher ! cheers Charles From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Apr 19 01:07:21 1998 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 18:07:21 -0700 Subject: Proposed BJP Government Watch (BJW) Article (fwd) Message-ID: <161227037743.23782.4959936733889133524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some members of INDOLOGY might find interest in the following newa article from India Today of April 13, 98 regarding a proposed BJP watchdog headed by Dr. S. P. Udayakumar of UofM, Minneapolis. Please excuse me if some of you have already received this through a different mailing list. Regards, Anshuman Pandey ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:39:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Sam Lanfranco Subject: Proposed BJP Government Watch (BJW) Article Reposted from: >From India Today April 13, 1998 THE NATION: BJP GOVERNMENT WATCH Conspiracy Theory An NRI left-right battle may lead to an international group monitoring Vajpayee's ministry. By Ashok Malik with Arthur J Pais With the BJP-led alliance settling into office, a variety of political passions have found expression among its adversaries. Among the more peculiar -- and certainly the most adventurous -- is one from across the seven seas: the BJP Government Watch (BJW). The brainchild of S.P. Udayakumar, the BJW is planned as a committee of social scientists, journalists and assorted Marxist thinkers which will monitor Atal Bihari Vajpayee's Government. Udayakumar is a research associate and co-director at the Institute on Race and Poverty, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. A native of Nagercoil in Tamil Nadu, he says he has "at least 10 internationally acclaimed" scholars ready to back the BJW but can't reveal their names yet. The list is a bit of an open secret though -- supposedly covering names such as Tanika Sarkar, Gyanendra Pandey, Praful Bidwai and Aijaz Ahmed. N. Ram, editor of fortnightly Frontline, is among those who has been invited to join the BJW. As he puts it, "Given the RSS' semi-fascist origins, we are suspicious about the BJP's attitude towards civil society and democracy." Yet, with India's free press and independent judiciary, isn't democracy safe? "The BJP threatens the institutions of civil society," cautions Ram, "in any case we are not seeking to replace the press or judiciary. The BJW is more an academic working group." Others don't display the same certitude. K.N. Panikkar, history professor at Delhi's Jawaharlal Nehru University, admits to having received a letter from Udayakumar but knows "no details". Asked to speculate on the efficacy of the BJW, all Panikkar says is, "It depends on the character and purpose of the group." Romilla Thapar, doyenne of leftist historiography, too has apparently been requested to join the BJW. However, when contacted she said she had only "heard some talk which it would be premature to talk about". Udayakumar -- whose doctoral thesis at the Hawaii University some years ago was a comparative analysis of the Sangh Parivar and the Nazis -- has a clear charter for the BJW. "Recent events," he says, "have challenged many people like me to monitor the Sangh Parivar and the BJP and raise our voices against the growth of fascism." All very well; but precisely how will Udayakumar and his friends "monitor" the new administration? The man is clearly on the defensive here: "The BJW is as nascent as the BJP Government. The BJP has a hidden agenda. Our group will seek to expose it." Pinned down to specifics, Udayakumar talks of a compact BJW: "If there are just about 24 scholars involved, we could keep it effective." So what will the BJW do with the valuable information it collects? Ram says Udayakumar will be the repository and "sole spokesman" of this saffron surveillance squad. He will take the findings to "the press and maybe a special page on the Internet". Udayakumar, whose ultimate aim is to write a book which is tentatively titled Bigots Encylopaedia, is actually in the midst of a trenchant battle between the NRI left and right across the campuses of America. The BJW is an offshoot of this conflict. Its chief target is the Hindu Students Council (HSC), born in 1990 but already 13,000- strong. Seeking to "speak for Hindu Americans", the HSC doubles as a sort of social service league, cleaning national highways and so on. Alarmed, the HSC's opponents are swinging into action. An anti- BJP website has been developed and cultural camps (one's called Underground Ruptures) are being organised. Now, with the "help from secular groups like the Indian Progressive Students, Udayakumar hopes to keep the Vajpayee regime on its toes. As theories on the reversal of the "brain drain" go, this one takes the bakery. --------------------------- end of article ------------------------------- From jai at FLEX.COM Sun Apr 19 06:49:24 1998 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 20:49:24 -1000 Subject: Proposed BJP Government Watch (BJW) Article (fwd) Message-ID: <161227037745.23782.14224072101537574087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Anshuman Pandey >Reposted from: >>From India Today April 13, 1998 > THE NATION: BJP GOVERNMENT WATCH > Conspiracy Theory >An NRI left-right battle may lead to an international group monitoring >Vajpayee's ministry. Namaste! There is information and/or speculation about the existence of at least two "alternate governments", aided by foreign countries, to step in if and when the BJP-led coalition falls apart. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Apr 19 14:27:34 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 15:27:34 +0100 Subject: [Editorial comment] (was Re: Proposed BJP Government Watch (BJW) Article) In-Reply-To: <002001bd6b5f$4f2609c0$0efbffd0@default> Message-ID: <161227037747.23782.9403748742275942321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Gentlemen, for your information. However, the INDOLOGY discussion group will best serve the causes of free speech, open thought, and liberal government by remaining focussed on scholarly matters concerning the discovery and interpretation of pre-modern Indian history, language, and culture. Please, please refrain from using INDOLOGY for political or ideological debate. There are many forums for such matters, but few for the sorts of academic, university-level discussion of Indian history, language, and culture for which INDOLOGY was founded. If we show no restraint in this matter, we will bring the INDOLOGY forumn into disrepute. There are already many people who do not read INDOLOGY because it carries too much slack argumentation not based on scholarly canons. I consider the signal-to-noise ration to be still high enough for the forum to be a serious and valuable contribution to indologists, but it is sometimes a close call. Please keep the discussion to matters to do with the scholarly interpretation of Indian culture, history, language, and art. Computer matters bearing directly on promoting indology, and indological job advertisements, book announcements, and lecture/seminar/course information is also welcome. Thank you. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. FAX +44-171-611-8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sun Apr 19 21:07:10 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 16:07:10 -0500 Subject: Sama Veda In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980419225454.45e76812@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227037752.23782.18145663857517400487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: In a few short days I actually defend the dissertation which so many of you have helped me in finding obscure passages, wrestling with accent, etc. To the list in general, my thanks once again. To those of you who've been repeatedly of service, I will be sending you complimentary copies. Now, as you may guess, I have another request to float. I have been intrigued by the paucity of occasions where puruSa is used in RV 9 (with the penchant for phonetic play on the root --puu/purify [cf. Elizarenkova, 1995: 129], I expected to find puruSa at least several times). In fact, it is largely absent from the SV as well, both KSV and JSV. Only KSV 3.4.3; 3.4.3; 3.4.5, and 3.4.9 all are purported to have puruSa. I'm embarrassed to admit that I've not managed to sufficiently master the numbering system to FIND them. These, and JSV 2.3.6; 2.3.7; 2.3.8; 2.4.1; 2.4.1; and 2.4.3 are the only occasions of puruSa in the SV according to V. Bandhu's VaidikapaadanukramakoSaH (VVRI pub). In addition, these are not hymns which are found in the RV. I've not been able to get my WWW internet from home to work lately, so I've not looked at the new e-text of KSV by A. Pandey . If someone could bear to e-mail me ITRANS versions of these KSV passages, I would be most grateful-- especially a few lines just before and just after the requested ones so I can get some sort of perspective on what the actual section is about when I do my translation. Knowing the context for the passage is, of course, quite important. As ever, many kind thanks in advance, and the respondent may consider themselves added to the "free copy of dissertation" list once it's defended and revised later this month. As usual, I'm pressing to a deadline (I try every means at my disposal before I ask the list, hence by that time, I'm in the proverbial 11th hour . . . ). with best wishes and many tyia's jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK Sun Apr 19 17:00:49 1998 From: mromberg at BINDU.PRESTEL.CO.UK (Margo Romberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 18:00:49 +0100 Subject: learning Sanskrit: thanks Message-ID: <161227037749.23782.451630241479348279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to those who gave me advice on pursuing my study of Sanskrit, which was gratefully received. I have noted all your suggestions and will follow them up as and when time permits. Best wishes, Margo von Romberg From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Apr 19 18:05:58 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 23:05:58 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227037750.23782.434065231353707064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominique: I noticed in the Sunday Newspapers today that your book The Roots of Ayurveda is listed among the best sellers under the "non-fiction category". Hearty congratulations! Thanks for sounding a warning to some honourable members bringing in unwarranted political discourse into Indology which has no interest in it. Best regards, Bh.K. At 15:27 19/04/98 +0100, you wrote: >Thank you, Gentlemen, for your information. > >However, the INDOLOGY discussion group will best serve the causes of free >speech, open thought, and liberal government by remaining focussed on >scholarly matters concerning the discovery and interpretation of >pre-modern Indian history, language, and culture. > >Please, please refrain from using INDOLOGY for political or ideological >debate. There are many forums for such matters, but few for the sorts of >academic, university-level discussion of Indian history, language, and >culture for which INDOLOGY was founded. > >If we show no restraint in this matter, we will bring the INDOLOGY forumn >into disrepute. There are already many people who do not read INDOLOGY >because it carries too much slack argumentation not based on scholarly >canons. I consider the signal-to-noise ration to be still high enough for >the forum to be a serious and valuable contribution to indologists, but it >is sometimes a close call. > >Please keep the discussion to matters to do with the scholarly >interpretation of Indian culture, history, language, and art. Computer >matters bearing directly on promoting indology, and indological job >advertisements, book announcements, and lecture/seminar/course information >is also welcome. > >Thank you. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine >183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. >FAX +44-171-611-8545 >email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk >WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Mon Apr 20 14:34:53 1998 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 07:34:53 -0700 Subject: SOAS Contact information requested In-Reply-To: <199804200141.LAA12914@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227037758.23782.14158810929690458434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might try Prof. J.C.Wright, at cw3 at soas.ac.uk. He has just retired, but may still be available. SOAS's contacts with the Vrindavan Research Institute have loosened since the deaths of Drs. Mukherjee, Gupta and now Wright's retirement. It may be preferable to communicate directly with the VRI. I am extremely sorry that I don't have the exact address or the name of the director, but I imagine that a letter written to the director, VRI, Vrindavan, Mathura, UP should reach its destination. Jan From gregjay at POI.NET Mon Apr 20 17:41:31 1998 From: gregjay at POI.NET (Greg Jay) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 09:41:31 -0800 Subject: SOAS Contact information requested In-Reply-To: <199804200141.LAA12914@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227037792.23782.13286930536730888779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"2) Someone from SOAS who knows something about the microfilming of temple >records from Brindavan? Why not directly contact the Vrndavan Research Institute, Chatikara Rd, Vrndavan, Mathura Dist, U.P., India. Make your enquiries care of the Director or Mr. Gosh the reader, or Mr. Pulin Krsna Goswami or Puneet Goswami the persons in the Microfilm department. I worked with them back in the mid 80's on a Microfilm project. I don't know who to contact in England. Greg Jay From gthursby at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Mon Apr 20 14:03:43 1998 From: gthursby at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Gene Thursby) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 10:03:43 -0400 Subject: Position Announcement In-Reply-To: <199804201354.JAA09523@clas.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <161227037760.23782.17754150453431282630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly circulate the following notice inviting applicants for a one-year non-renewable faculty teaching post: The Department of Religion at the University of Florida anticipates a one-year (replacement) position for 1998-99. Recent Ph.Ds and ABDs are encouraged to apply. Candidates should be prepared to teach courses on Religions of India, Religion in Modern India and others in her/his area of speciality. Teaching competence in Islam in South Asia is necessary. The position is incumbent on funds being made available by the administration. Interested candidates should send a covering letter and vitae. If possible, please send reply by fax to 352-392-7395, Attn. Thursby. If by post, to: Dr. Gene Thursby South Asia Search University of Florida Department of Religion 125 Dauer Hall Gainesville, FL 32611-7410 USA From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Apr 20 16:11:44 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 10:11:44 -0600 Subject: koTi koTi mAra lAvaNya Message-ID: <161227037763.23782.9834764105872815151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone please provide me with muttusvAmi diikshitar's krithi: koTi koTi mAra lAvaNya sung at vazuvuur, Tanjore district? Does this song pray to Siva as naked ascetic enthralling Rishi pattinis? The brahmin rishis send an elephant demon to kill him. Siva vanquishes gajAsura. Vazuvuur has a very exquisite Chola bronze of gajasamhaaramuurti. Even more beautiful is a standing umaa with a baby murugan in her hand. The child points a finger towards Siva. There is a festival in vazuvUr using these bronzes and interesting myths are told. I will write later. There are hundreds of Tevaram poems (7th century) referring to elephant slayer. Kamban has few nice viruttams. KantapuraaNam (12th century) has a whole chapter devoted tho this myth. I am reading J. A. B. van Buitenana's paper on gajasamhaaramuurti. It seems not many sanskrit poems on gajaandaka. Some Kalidasa editions has some lines on gajasamhaaram. It may be later addition, since many print editions don't have it. kuurmapuraaNam has few poems on gajaandaka. I need enlightenment on: gajasamhaaram myth in sanskrit literature. koTi koTi mAra lAvaNya, please Regards, N. Ganesan From dkprint at 4MIS.COM Mon Apr 20 14:27:41 1998 From: dkprint at 4MIS.COM (DK Printworld) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 10:27:41 -0400 Subject: SOAS Contact information requested Message-ID: <161227037756.23782.9477031015441979210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adrian Burton wrote: > > Thank you to the continental Europeans for all the information on > Professor Dr. Monika Boehm-Tettelbach. > > Would our non-continental Europeans have any information on the second half > of my request, that is to say, information about: > > "2) Someone from SOAS who knows something about the microfilming of temple > records from Brindavan? > > I am looking for a name, a telephone number, mailing address, and/ or an > e-mail address....." > > Or maybe just the e-mail address of anyone at the Indian Studies section of > SOAS? I tried their web-page but there are no staff addresses. > > Adrian Burton Dear Dr. Burton, I understand that Prof. J. C. Wright of SOAS has done some extensive work on Vrinaban Temple Documents. I don't know his e-mail address but you may perhaps contact him at fax no. 071- 436 3844. With regards, Susheel K. Mittal D. K. Printworld (P) Ltd. Sri Kunj F-52 Bali Nagar New Delhi - 110015 dkprint at 4mis.com From adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Apr 20 01:41:22 1998 From: adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 11:41:22 +1000 Subject: SOAS Contact information requested Message-ID: <161227037754.23782.14727573262315793024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you to the continental Europeans for all the information on Professor Dr. Monika Boehm-Tettelbach. Would our non-continental Europeans have any information on the second half of my request, that is to say, information about: "2) Someone from SOAS who knows something about the microfilming of temple records from Brindavan? I am looking for a name, a telephone number, mailing address, and/ or an e-mail address....." Or maybe just the e-mail address of anyone at the Indian Studies section of SOAS? I tried their web-page but there are no staff addresses. Adrian Burton. From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Mon Apr 20 15:10:44 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 16:10:44 +0100 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037762.23782.328508963421493055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my recent message I forgot to mention that, though there are no complete translations into English of any of the old Siddhaantatantras, there is a complete translation into French of the M.rgendratantra:--- Michel Hulin Pondicherry: French Institute, 1980. + He'le`ne Brunner-Lachaux Pondicherrry: French Institute 1985. Dominic Goodall. From RSharma144 at AOL.COM Mon Apr 20 20:13:20 1998 From: RSharma144 at AOL.COM (RSharma144) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 16:13:20 -0400 Subject: address in Hyderabad needed Message-ID: <161227037767.23782.13070458156154750812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I might have the address, but I dont have his e-mail number? Do you need the address? Anita From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Mon Apr 20 22:13:37 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 18:13:37 -0400 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037769.23782.12035625304314690865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for your kind reply Dr. Goodall. @ @Response to questions about the "Saiva Siddhaanta [..] @be late. Incontrovertible, though, are the following three kinds of ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @evidence:--- ~~~~~~~~~ I'm sorry, it is not clear to me what this incontrovertible evidence points to. @ @1) a tantra's being transmitted not just in South Indian, but also in @early Nepalese and/or Kashmirian manuscripts. @ @2) the existence of substantial attributed quotations by demonstrably @early authors that are still traceable in the extant work that bears @the same name @ @3) the survival of early commentaries. @ @Using these criteria we can arrive at a (shortish) list of @pre-tenth-century Siddhaantas. These too are disparate in theology ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm just curious - are some of these pre-fifth-century ? @and style and may have been composed over a number of centuries and in @widely separated parts of India. @ @The problems of the stratigraphy of the Saiddhantika canon are adverted to @in the more recent articles of Mme. Brunner (e.g. `The Four Paadas of @"Saivaagamas', pp.260--78 in The Journal of Oriental Research, Madras @1986--92) and in Professor Sanderson's `The Doctrine of the @Maaliniivijayottaratantra', an article in edited by Teun Goudriaan @(SUNY 1992). (The same article, by the way, shows how difficult it is to @talk about `Kashmiri Saivism' as though it were a single and entirely @separate tradition and in part answers your question about its earliest @sources.) Thanks for the references. @ @A fuller discussion and a presentation of some evidence is to be found in @my own book (in press) esp. on pp.xxxvi--xlvii:--- @ @Bha.t.ta Raamaka.n.tha's Commentary on the Kira.natantra---volume I: @chapters 1--6---critical edition and annotated translation. @(Publications du de'partement d'indologie 86.1). pp. cxxv, 487. @ @Dominic Goodall @ Selva From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Mon Apr 20 16:52:04 1998 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 18:52:04 +0200 Subject: address in Hyderabad needed Message-ID: <161227037765.23782.11696050543531392996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some weeks ago a message from the HINDU ONLINE was copied to this site, reporting the find of copper plate grants in the West Godavari district. It was stated that Dr. N.S. Ramachandra Murthy Assistent Director State Archaeology Dept. Hyderabad had deciphered the plates. Does anyone have the mail or email address of Dr. Murthy? Thanks, Harry Falk From brao at USC.EDU Tue Apr 21 05:06:34 1998 From: brao at USC.EDU (Bapa Rao) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 22:06:34 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: new courses] Message-ID: <161227037774.23782.12314871266089657047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I received this in email, maybe of interest to the list. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 4014 URL: From brao at USC.EDU Tue Apr 21 05:13:12 1998 From: brao at USC.EDU (Bapa Rao) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 22:13:12 -0700 Subject: Request for information Message-ID: <161227037776.23782.3078966356230140664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking to purchase a copy of "siddhanta zirOmaNi", the mathematics text by Bhaskara II, I am particularly interested in the Lilavati section. Ideally, I would like to get hold of a version that has the Sanskrit original with an English or Telugu translation. I would appreciate any help in locating this. Thanks, Bapa Rao From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Apr 21 02:30:25 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 22:30:25 -0400 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227037772.23782.17338567078720565128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Krishnamurti, In a message dated 98-01-19 03:50:58 EST, you write: << Also notice that the contracted form of kuyawa occurs as ko: within Ta.Kota, Toda and Kannada. Emeneau derives the name Kota from the potter word, ko:v 'a Kota man'. >> Do you have the reference for this work by Emeneau? Regards S. Palaniappan From adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Apr 21 01:17:52 1998 From: adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 11:17:52 +1000 Subject: SOAS Contact information requested Message-ID: <161227037770.23782.5096724260308892147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 7:34 AM 20/4/98 -0700, Jan Brzezinski wrote: >You might try Prof. J.C.Wright, at cw3 at soas.ac.uk. Thanks, I will try that. > It may be preferable to communicate directly with the VRI. I am extremely >sorry that I don't >have the exact address or the name of the director, but I imagine that a >letter written to the >director, VRI, Vrindavan, Mathura, UP should reach its destination. > Thank you, but I have just been to the VRI a couple of months ago, and they are not holding the material I was looking for. Industrial unrest was still affecting operations when I was there in December-January, but at least the library was opening. The director's position had not been filled by then, but there was to be a series of meetings of the trustees and managers in January to try and sort things out. After the death of Gupta-ji the whole place was in the doldrums waiting for something to happen. Adrian. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Apr 21 19:38:37 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 13:38:37 -0600 Subject: Kalidasa Message-ID: <161227037782.23782.2465020373370613813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can a member of Indology check whether Kalidasa uses a theme/motif of "Gentle Breeze from Southern mountains tormenting separated lovers"? May be in a Kalidasa index. Also, does this occur anywhere else other than Giita Govindam? Many thanks, N. Ganesan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 21 20:55:16 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 13:55:16 -0700 Subject: canon of "Saivasiddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037787.23782.8294913260415332679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Tirumular, > Both his language (as was pointed out by Vaiyapuripillai, the >editor of a number of volumes of Madras University's Tamil Lexicon, in his >History of Tamil Literature) and also the syncretic character of his >religiosity (he included not just Saiddhaantika ideas, but also the >"Sriicakra and the "Sriividyaa, for which the first Sanskrit sources are >relatively late) suggest that he should be assigned rather a late date >than an early one. Could it be that the Sanskrit texts of SrIvidyA tradition essentially recast the vernacular texts into Sanskrit? Not that this is very helpful for fixing Tirumular's date, but there is the possibility that he is earlier than most of the important Sanskrit texts of SrIvidyA. What is the influence of the pASupata tradition on Kashmiri and Tamil Saiva texts? There is a close relationship between pASupatas and the naiyAyikas/vaiSeshikas, who were all ISvara-kAraNa-vAdins. It would be difficult to trace texts like the ritual paddhatis to the pASupatas, but then the many kAyArohaNa Siva temples in the south and the dIkshA ceremony are of pASupata origin. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Apr 21 18:49:56 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 14:49:56 -0400 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037784.23782.13952974028567676747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> @By `incontrovertible evidence' I meant evidence for a tantra's @predating the 9th--10th-century Kashmirian lineage of @Raamaka.n.tha II, whose writings systematised the "Saiva Siddhanta. Thanks for your clarification. @ @I don't believe that there is any firm evidence that dates any of the @Siddhaantatantras to the fifth century or before. The earliest dated MS I wonder whether you had considered the writings of Kaaraikkaal ammaiyaar, a lady saint poet of Tamil country belonging to the 5th century. The hymns of poet-saints tirunaavukkarasar ( popularly known as 'appar') and tirugnaana sambandar ( popularly known as 'sambanDar') belonging to the 6-7th centuries contain Saiva Siddanta. [..] I was also curious about the date of tirumoolar who is said to have written tirumantiram(in Tamil), a work on tantric-Siddhantic topics. I've seen claims of 3rd centry to 10th century. I don't know whether tirumantiram can be assigned a date much later than 10th century. I wonder whether tirumantiram is considered in the Siddhantic study ? selvaa @Dominic Goodall From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Apr 21 15:08:44 1998 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 16:08:44 +0100 Subject: More news about India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037777.23782.8429330280304016838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, IAOmar wrote: > Does anyone have any idea about if this is some regular practice or a > single incident? >> Family sacrifices father, eats his flesh at Kali puja In Varanasi, Ram >> Sevak Chowhan's family beheaded him, ate his flesh and danced around >> with his blood smeared on their body. They also chopped off the tongues >> of his two daughters-in-law. >> http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/apr/09sacri.htm > There was a feature article in the Sunday Times of London a few months back about child sacrifice in contemporary India. It was linked to "tantric" rites. Can't recall the ref., I'm afraid. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. First Rule of History: History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Apr 21 22:38:30 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 16:38:30 -0600 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037794.23782.1262036121444029131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The greatest yogi in Tamil literature is Tirumuular. Let me quote from K. Zvelebil, The poets of the powers, "The yogin, poet and philosopher Tirumuular might have lived some time in the 7th century A.D. since he is mentioned by Cuntarar in tiruttoNTattokai (The Anthology about the Lives of the Slave-Saints', late 7th century-early 8th century), st. 5 (7621). Umaapati Civaacaaryar (14th century) clearly refers to Tirumuulara as a Siddha". In other works, KZ dates him at 6th century. Regards, N. Ganesan From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Apr 21 21:03:50 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 17:03:50 -0400 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037791.23782.15657024141670530415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> @ @First of all, a correction to my earlier posting. The Paarame"svaratantra @MS in Cambridge is dated 828 AD, and not 819, as I had previously @asserted. @ @I do not think that Kaaraikkaal ammaiyaar can be considered to have @belonged to the "Saiva Siddhaanta---at least not to the "Saiva Siddhaanta @that we find recorded in the works of Saiddhaantika theologians up to and @including Aghora"siva (fl.1157 in Chidambaram) or in the Saiddhaantika @scriptures known to those theologians. It is difficult to infer @theological positions from her poetry---as it is from the Tamil poetry of @other devotees of "Siva (you mention Appar and ~Naanacampantar). They @were Maahe"svaras (i.e. lay devotees of "Siva), but not, I think, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @Saiddhaantikas, even though later South Indian Saiddhaantikas may have @regarded them as such. I don't know where Appar and Capantar are 'identified' as Maahe"svaras (lay devotees of "Siva). They are not 'lay devotees' but 'authorities' of Saiva Siddhanta, as per my lay understanding. The hymns of Kaaraikaal ammaiyaar, Appar and Campantar are not as easy to understand as they may appear to be. @ @You mention also Tirumuular and observe that different scholars assign him @widely different dates. As far as I am aware, there is little firm @external evidence by which he might be dated (no more, perhaps, than an @early reference to a certain `Muular'---not compelling because of the @problem familiar to indologists of what I have heard called `narrow @onomasty'). Both his language (as was pointed out by Vaiyapuripillai, the @editor of a number of volumes of Madras University's Tamil Lexicon, in his @History of Tamil Literature) and also the syncretic character of his @religiosity (he included not just Saiddhaantika ideas, but also the @"Sriicakra and the "Sriividyaa, for which the first Sanskrit sources are ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @relatively late) suggest that he should be assigned rather a late date ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @than an early one. I get the *impression* that you (and possibly many other indologists) consider that Sanskrit sources must have been the original or primary sources for any system in India. I admit that my impression could be incorrect. Can you please explain why you consider it as 'syncretic character of his religiosity' and not that the so called Sriicakra and Sriividya are 'systems' differentiated later ( at least in the Sanskrit sources) ? @ @Perhaps you, or others reading this, are aware of firm evidence or @convincing arguments by which Tirumuular might plausibly be dated? I'm no expert in dating Tirumuular. But I would be surprised if it is dated later than MeykaNDaar's Siva~Naanabodham ( of 12th century ??). I believe there is epigraphical evidence for MeykaNDaar's date. selvaa @Yours, @Dominic Goodall. @ From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 22 00:15:52 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 18:15:52 -0600 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037796.23782.7381198669797299375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his latest book, K. Zvelebil dates Tirumuular as belonging to late 6th century to early 7th century AD. >?From KZ, Lexicon of Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1995 "As such, Tirumantiram has become the cornerstone of all Tamil Siddha wrtings. In his religious outlook, the author is a rather Catholic "Saivaite, his philosophy is basically "saiva siddhaanta with traces of advaita. In his practice, he is Tantric; the easiest way to approach the Absolute is in and through human body. In his ridicule of the externals of religion, he is one of the great Siddhas; he is also great yogin who unites the approach of yoga (which he expounds in great detail) with Tantric approach. In using sex, the practitioner is encouraged to make an uninhibited response to bodily demands in order to sublimate them into spiritual joy. Many st. have more than one layer of meaning. His is a lineage which goes parallel to the line of bhakti poets, through Hindu and Muslim siddhas upto Ramalinga Svaami. One may be in doubt whether Tirumantiram is work of one author or rather an entire group of tantric yogin-philosophers, some of them more interested in medicine, alchemy, magic, others rather in ritual and iconography (worship of Nataraja), yet others in ideology. There is though common tendency of protest against empty ritualism; common tone of rugged coarseness; finality of statement with explosive power behind it. This gives the work unity and authenticity of possibly single authorship. But the versatility coupled with adroitness and double-entendre is suspicious. Much more study of original text and its dating is needed." Regards, N. Ganesan From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Tue Apr 21 17:32:33 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 18:32:33 +0100 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta In-Reply-To: <199804202213.SAA24178@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227037781.23782.13612913988129069515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By `incontrovertible evidence' I meant evidence for a tantra's predating the 9th--10th-century Kashmirian lineage of Raamaka.n.tha II, whose writings systematised the "Saiva Siddhanta. I don't believe that there is any firm evidence that dates any of the Siddhaantatantras to the fifth century or before. The earliest dated MS of a Siddhaantatantra to survive is that of the Paarame"svaratantra (819 AD). Some other Nepalese palm-leaf MSS might just predate it (e.g.\ perhaps that of the Ni"svaasatattvasa.mhitaa or that of the Sarvaj~naanottara), but certainly not by many years. Filliozat is of the opinion (see p.xvi of his , Geneve 1991) that Raghuva.m"sa 10:26 refers to Siddhaantas with the word aagama:-- bahudhaapy aagamair bhinnaa.h panthaana.h siddhihetava.h| tvayy eva nipatanty oghaa jaahnaviiyaa ivaar.nave|| But this is far from compelling, to my mind, because no writers (with the possible exception of Saiddhaantikas writing in Tamil from the time of Aru.lnandi) privilege the term aagama to refer exclusively to Saiddhaantika scriptures. The first inscriptions that definitely refer to the "Saiva Siddhaanta appear in the 7th century, e.g., one at the Kailaasanaatha temple in Kaa~ncii, from which one can infer that the Pallava king Narasi.mhavarman II had received diik.saa into the cult from verse 5d "saivasiddhaantamaarge "sriimaan atyantakaama.h k.satasakalamala.h. (Atyantakaama was one of the king's biru.das). The same verse further qualifies him as "saktik.su.n.naarivarga.h, which is presumably intended to mean both `the group of whose enemies were crushed by his spear' and at the same time `the group of whose [internal] enemies [viz. the senses] were crushed [and so brought under control] by [a descent of "Siva's] power'. [For arivarga in this sense, cf. Raghuva.m"sa 4:60. A descent of "Siva's power ("saktipaata) is a necessary prerequisite for receiving diik.saa.] The whole verse is, I think, quoted in Filliozat's introduction to the English version of his edition and translation of the Svaayambhuvasuutrasa"ngraha recently published from the IGNCA in Delhi (edition not to hand). Dominic Goodall From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Tue Apr 21 19:47:08 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 20:47:08 +0100 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta In-Reply-To: <199804211849.OAA25564@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227037786.23782.15536126022913367457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First of all, a correction to my earlier posting. The Paarame"svaratantra MS in Cambridge is dated 828 AD, and not 819, as I had previously asserted. I do not think that Kaaraikkaal ammaiyaar can be considered to have belonged to the "Saiva Siddhaanta---at least not to the "Saiva Siddhaanta that we find recorded in the works of Saiddhaantika theologians up to and including Aghora"siva (fl.1157 in Chidambaram) or in the Saiddhaantika scriptures known to those theologians. It is difficult to infer theological positions from her poetry---as it is from the Tamil poetry of other devotees of "Siva (you mention Appar and ~Naanacampantar). They were Maahe"svaras (i.e. lay devotees of "Siva), but not, I think, Saiddhaantikas, even though later South Indian Saiddhaantikas may have regarded them as such. You mention also Tirumuular and observe that different scholars assign him widely different dates. As far as I am aware, there is little firm external evidence by which he might be dated (no more, perhaps, than an early reference to a certain `Muular'---not compelling because of the problem familiar to indologists of what I have heard called `narrow onomasty'). Both his language (as was pointed out by Vaiyapuripillai, the editor of a number of volumes of Madras University's Tamil Lexicon, in his History of Tamil Literature) and also the syncretic character of his religiosity (he included not just Saiddhaantika ideas, but also the "Sriicakra and the "Sriividyaa, for which the first Sanskrit sources are relatively late) suggest that he should be assigned rather a late date than an early one. Perhaps you, or others reading this, are aware of firm evidence or convincing arguments by which Tirumuular might plausibly be dated? Yours, Dominic Goodall. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 22 05:18:31 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 22:18:31 -0700 Subject: More news about India Message-ID: <161227037802.23782.7062084676777715361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> REgarding all this discussion about child-sacrifice in India, I would like to point out that while I have no problems with discussion , I found the tone of the original question a trifle mischevious..It said something like "Is this a common event in India?" A person who is Indian and has stayed in India( or atleast has friends in India) should no better than to ask such malicious questions!!! The good gentleman who asked the question quoted a mail from a friend in Mumbai and then asked members to tell him if this is common; I would have emailed the friend( who originally sent in the information) for the neccesary information instead of plaguing an academic group with such cheap, sensational stuff. It is bad enough that we have people with a mischevious mentality in our midst, what I find even more ghastly is the fact that three nettors are actually cheer-leading such despicable tripe by actually taking the trouble of answering the question! It must be remembered that in a country with India's population, there will always be a few loonies who will act crazy for reasons of their own. Playing up such psycopathic behaviour on this newsgroup is simply not in bad taste, IT POSITOVELY SUCKS!!! The least we can do is NOT to take the bait and bring this group to the "academic" level of televangelist Pat Robertson's raves and rants against India and Hinduism. Would the good gentleman who started it all please investigate and inform us as to how frequent killing one's own children and grandchildren is in SAudi Arabia( where even the royal family indulges in the *sport*) and Pakistan, where quite a few incidents go unreported in Pakistani newspapers. Would he please work out the reason(s) there and account for the much higher percentage of deaths in those countries before asking such extraordinarily irritating questions on INDOLOGY list? I am very surprised to see that the net-police have not taken note of the "un-Indological nature" of the question and pour water on the fire before it spreads! My only request to the net-police( in case they bash me up) is to point out the malice and mischief in the original question and ask them to root out the cause before they can take action against the effect. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Tue Apr 21 20:55:28 1998 From: Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Sara McClintock) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 22:55:28 +0200 Subject: Kalidasa In-Reply-To: <01IW4SSQXQ42000J2K@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037789.23782.10566847489723026547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N Ganesan wrote: >Can a member of Indology check whether Kalidasa uses >a theme/motif of "Gentle Breeze from Southern mountains >tormenting separated lovers"? May be in a Kalidasa index. Verse 47 of the Uttaramegha of the Meghaduuta reads as follows (apologies for not supplying the Sanskrit -- I do not have access to it at the moment; the translation is one that I did many years ago when studying Sanskrit with Jim Benson). Although the verse does not indicate torment specifically, it is set within the wider context of the torment of separation (viraha). "I embrace, o excellent one, the southern blowing Himaalayan breezes, which split at once the pods of the shoots of the Devadaaru pine trees and are redolent with their milky sap, thinking that they might well have touched your body earlier." Meghaduuta 2.47 I hope this helps. ____________________ Sara McClintock Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne email: Sara.McClintock at orient.unil.ch From roheko at MSN.COM Wed Apr 22 01:23:28 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 03:23:28 +0200 Subject: Kalidasa Message-ID: <161227037798.23782.7256140213631239346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MeghadUta Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: N. Ganesan An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Dienstag, 21. April 1998 20:40 Betreff: Kalidasa Can a member of Indology check whether Kalidasa uses a theme/motif of "Gentle Breeze from Southern mountains tormenting separated lovers"? May be in a Kalidasa index. Also, does this occur anywhere else other than Giita Govindam? Many thanks, N. Ganesan From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Wed Apr 22 01:31:24 1998 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 03:31:24 +0200 Subject: More news about India Message-ID: <161227037799.23782.11253132753622071980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1998-04-21 17:08 Dominik Wujastyk, ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK wrote: >There was a feature article in the Sunday Times of London a few months >back about child sacrifice in contemporary India. It was linked to >"tantric" rites. Can't recall the ref., I'm afraid. Here's an article from the Sunday Tribune of India of a few months back. Jaap Pranger ------------------------ The Sunday Tribune, November 16, 1997 Tantrik father unrepentant From K.G.Dutt Tribune News Service JIND, Nov 15 _ The brutal human sacrifice of seven-year-old Shambu has sent shock waves in Jambewa village and adjoining areas. People are aghast at the gory episode. Reports gathered by this correspondent indicate that it is the first incident of its kind in the area. According to sources, Bholu Ram, alias Dharam Vir, killed his son at about 4 a.m. on November 12 morning. Bholu Ram, a devotee of goddess Kali, has been proclaiming himself as a sorcerer with divine powers. It is learnt that he has been indulging in sorcery for the past about seven years. An unemployed middle-aged man, he belongs to the Dhanik caste. A section of people interviewed by this correspondent on the telephone maintained that of late Bholu Ram had been claiming that the goddess Kali had bestowed divine powers on him. He claimed he was in a position to revive a dead man. In the early hours of "Tridoshi" day, the day on which the worship Lord Shiva and goddess Kali is considered auspicious. The wife of Bholu Ram left for the fields. Finding himself alone, Bholu Ram woke up Shambu while he was asleep with his three-year-old brother. The sorcerer slit the neck of his innocent son with a knife, hoping that he would be able to revive him. After the ghastly crime, he reportedly left the house and went to the fields. When his wife returned she saw Shambu in a pool of blood. When Bholu Ram returned from the fields, he admitted that he had sacrificed his son to please the goddess Kali. He insisted that he would revive his son back to life as he had been blessed with divine powers. Bholu Ram made vain efforts to revive his son by chanting certain mantras. He appeared without any remorse even after he failed to revive his son. He did not hesitate to admit his crime. Within hours, the news of the human sacrifice spread in the village. Amar Singh, younger brother of Bholu Ram, lodged a FIR at Jambewa village under the Piloo Khera police station. The police arrested Bholu Ram on the same day. He has been charged under Section 302, IPC. The mother of Shambu and his younger brother are reported to be in a state of shock over the incident. But Bholu Ram had so far been unrepentant as he maintains that he has done the act to "appease the goddess Kali". ------------------------- From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 22 13:29:40 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 07:29:40 -0600 Subject: canon of "saiva siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037810.23782.12420686366611924489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following are the arguments by Prof. N. Subrahmanian for dating Tirumuular in early 6th (or even late 5th) century CE. NS is a descendant of V. K. Suryanarayana Sastri (paritimAR kalai~nar) and a historian of repute. It comes in a foreword to a book by his student. (R. Venkatraman, A history of the Tamil Siddha cult, Madurai, 1990. BTW, RV dates Tirumuular in 10th century, positing two Tirumuulars.). "A totally unacceptable value frame can make no headway in an unresponsive society. It will therefore be in order to expect that in the Tamil society, there already existed a cross-section which enjoyed somewhat at least of the Siddha ways. It is interesting to note that one does come across such a people in the pre-bhakti age of the Tamils. They were known as the aRivar (tolkaappiyam, puRattiNai iyal 75). Commenting on a suutram in the tolkaappiyam which mentions aRivar, naccin2aarkkin2iyar says: *kalaca yOkiyaakiya akattiyan2 mutaliyOrum aRivar en2Ru uNarka* and *yOkikaLaay upaayaGkaLaan2 mukkaalamum uNarnta maamuular mutaliyOr aRivan2REyattu an2ainilai vakaiyOraavaar* It is significant that in this context, the medieval commentator should refer to Tirumuular as Maamuular. The prefixes, maa and tiru are interchangeable as can be seen in the usages of maaallikkENi for tiru allikkENi by aazvaars, maamayilai for tirumayilai in tEvaaram. (maa and tiru both mean Lakshmi). These aRivar were a category of wise men who already existed in the Tamil society and they find mention in the pre-6th century literature of the Tamils.The kalittokai anthology speaks of aRivar who are explained as kaNi or the astrologers. The Siddhas who come later are also noted for their aaruuDam or astrology (retelling). ..." NS dates Tirumuular in late 5th-early 6th century CE. KZ also says that "Legend says that Sambandhar discovered Tirumuular's works in TiruvaavaDutuRai temple". So, did Tirumuular belong to pre-bhakti, pre-sambandhar days? ie., pre-7th century. KZ dates him to be in late 6th-early 7th centuries CE. I gave the relevent writings earlier. Regards, N. Ganesan ************************************************************************ mahaavAkyas from Tirumantiram ----------------------------- Tirumuular's sayings have become proverbs over the centuries. Secularism is enshrined in them. an2pE civam - God is Love yaan2 peRRa in2pam peRuka iv vaiyakam - May this World share the bliss that I have enjoyed. on2RE kulamum, oruvan2E tEvan2um - The entire humankind is one family, and the Lord we all worship is only one. uTampuLE uttaman2 kOyil koNTaan2 en2Ru uTampin2ai Ompukin2REn2E - Our body is the Temple of the Lord, to take care of it is Sacred. ....... N. Ganesan From vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 22 08:21:10 1998 From: vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Harshavardhan Vedak) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 09:21:10 +0100 Subject: Aryan Invasion theory disproved?? Message-ID: <161227037829.23782.8592067082959685651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am new to this mailing list and not an expert in Indology in any respect, I am just a student interested in the research being done today in this field. I heard from a website (I'm sorry, but I forgot the address, I'll send it at a later date when I re-find it) made by this one bloke, Indian, who claimed he was a professor in the field of Indology. His website was about how he is trying to disprove the Aryan invasion theory based on research and recent archeological excavations in the Kutch area of Gujrat. He claims that in a Harappan city (he christened it "Dwarka") that was uncovered there he has discovered evidence based on pottery, horse skeletons, etc.. that the Aryan invasion theory is something conjured up by (no offence) Western European based scientists of the 19th century. He states that Indian civilization and culture has directly descended from the Harappan civilization and for every point that the Aryan invasion theory gives, he gives a counterexample. For instance, he says he has proof that the Ashokan pillar script comes from the Harappan script. He gives a lot of other reasons that sound convincing to one who hasn't been educated in this field. As you can tell, I am skeptical. Is this guy for real? Do the points he makes have any evidence to back it up? I would appreciate anyone's reply. Thanks. Oh yes, I'll try to find that website again (I accessed it last year sometime). Best Regards, -Harshavardhan Vedak ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Webmaster of Bharat Rakshak- the Consortium of Indian Military Websites @: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com Please visit my Indian Army page @: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY Jai Hind!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Apr 22 14:36:15 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 10:36:15 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227037820.23782.13005034279140229926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jean Fezas said about the human sacrifice reported from Jambewa: "If this murder it is the first (and only) incident of this kind, it has nothing to do with a ritual. If there is no ritual it is not a "brutal human sacrifice" it is an instance of mental illness..." Not quite. It's the first reported from this locality, not the first in India. After all, one can buy the Kalikapurana in the bazar and find a ritual for human sacrifice in it. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4714 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From jkcowart at IO-ONLINE.COM Wed Apr 22 18:04:45 1998 From: jkcowart at IO-ONLINE.COM (J Kingston Cowart) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:04:45 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037837.23782.14903683428375600861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:36 AM 4/22/98 -0400, Allen W Thrasher wrote: >>...one can buy the Kalikapurana in the bazar and find a ritual for human >>sacrifice in it. >> At 09:41 PM 4/22/98 +0500, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >I want to remind that human sacrifice (however detestable it may be) is not >confined only to Hinduism but practically all religions except perhaps >Buddhism and Jainism. After all Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his >son but was permitted to sacrifice a ram instead of him. > One does well to recall these facts of the Western tradition: 1) it was never God's intent that Isaac actually be sacrificed; 2) there are no texts in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam which specify the conditions and methods of human sacrifice. It is indeed proscribed rather than prescribed. With respect to Hinduism, however, the Kalikapurana does prescribe such a ritual. Although the practice in any case marks an aberration today, the textual difference is, one would think, both obvious and significant. J. Kingston Cowart San Diego, California From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 22 17:12:08 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:12:08 -0600 Subject: human sacrifice Message-ID: <161227037824.23782.11922558243554319840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On US TV, there are many programs that I have seen talk of child sacrifice in Mayan societies as a ritual. New archaeological data, many child skulls with holes, etc., Anybody who knows about blood sacrifices in Meso America? Thanks, N. Ganesan From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Wed Apr 22 15:27:37 1998 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:27:37 -0400 Subject: Role of poetry and poetics in ancient Indian literature In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980422200600.3c6f86ea@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227037818.23782.10422470219452891848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in articles/books on the role of poetry and poetics in ancient Indian literature. Any help would be appreciated. Alok Kumar Department of Physics State University of New York Oswego, NY 13126. From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Apr 22 10:37:38 1998 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:37:38 +0100 Subject: Role of poetry and poetics in ancient Indian literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037827.23782.14575028112217480143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alok This recently published list may help. It is not comlete but it is a start. John I am interested in articles/books on the role of poetry and poetics in ancient Indian literature. Any help would be appreciated. Alok Kumar Department of Physics State University of New York Oswego, NY 13126. SELECT INDIAN PUBLICATIONS ON SANSKRIT POETICS 1. Bhattacharya, Bishnupada, 1921- New trends in Sanskrit poetics / Bishnupada Bhattacharya. -- 1st ed. -- Dharwad : Prasaranga, Karnatak University, 1987. 58 p. ; 22 cm. Includes passages in Sanskrit (roman) Collection of lectures delivered as 28th All India Oriental Conference memorial special lectures on 22nd, 23rd and 25th October 1985 at Karnatak University. Includes bibliographical references. 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. $1.00 (ubd.) DK-55935 2. Dandin, 7th cent. [Kavyadarsa. Sanskrit & Tibetan] Kavyadarsa = Snan dnags me lon : a bilingual edition of the monumental treatise on the principles of Sanskrit poetical composion [sic] / by Dandin (Dbyug-pa-can). -- Rewalsar, H.P. : Zigar Drukpa Kargyud Institute, 1985. xxiv, 286 p. ; 19 cm. In Sanskrit; translation in Tibetan; prefatory matter in English, Sanskrit and Tibetan. Title on added t.p.: Slob-dpon Dbyug-pa-can gyis mdzad pa'i snan nag me lon ma. Reprint. Originally published: Calcutta : University of Calcutta, 1939. Classical treatise on Sanskrit poetics. 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $16.70 DKS-1531 3. De, Sushil Kumar, 1890-1968. Some problems of Sanskrit poetics / Sushil Kumar De. -- 1st ed. -- Calcutta : Firma KLM, 1959, 1981 printing. 267 p. ; 23 cm. Includes passages in Sanskrit. Articles; most previously published. Includes bibliographical references and indexes. 1. Poetics. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $4.20 DK-24289 4. Dwivedi, Rewa Prasad, 1935- [Kavyalankarakarika. English & Sanskrit] Kavyalankarakarika : latest Sanskrit poetics / by Rewa Prasada Dwivedi. -- 1st ed. -- Varanasi : Chaukhamba Surbharati Prakashan, 1977. 43, 278 p. ; 23 cm. -- (Chaukhamba Surabharati studies ; 1) Added t.p. in Sanskrit. Commentary in Sanskrit; introd. in English or Sanskrit. Includes bibliographical references and index. Verse work, with autocommentary, on the fundamental considerations of Sanskrit poetics. 1. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. 2. Poetics. $2.50 DK-14619 5. Glimpses of ancient Indian poetics, from Bharata to Jagannatha / edited by Sudhakar Pandey, V.N. Jha. -- 1st ed. -- Delhi, India : Sri Satguru Publications, 1993. x, 216 p. ; 22 cm. -- (Shri Garib Dass oriental series ; no. 166). Includes quotations in Sanskrit. Papers presented at the National Seminar on Indian Poetics, held at University of Poona during 6-8 March 1986. Includes bibliographical references. ISBN 81-7030-360-5 1. Poetics--Congresses. 2. Poetics, Sanskrit--Congresses. 3. Poetics, Indic--Congresses. $16.70 DK-79959 6. Gupta, Savitri, 1946- Comparative and critical study of Ekavali : contribution of Vidyadhara to Sanskrit poetics / by Savitri Gupta ; with a foreword by Satya Vrat Shastri. -- 1st ed. -- Delhi, India : Eastern Book Linkers, 1992. xx, 316 p. ; 23 cm. Includes quotations in Sanskrit. Revision of the author's thesis (Ph. D.--University of Delhi, 1976) under the title: Contribution of Vidyadhara to Sanskrit poetics. Bibliography: p. [313]-316. ISBN 81-85133-57-3 1. Vidyadhara. Ekavali. 2. Poetics, Sanskrit. 3. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $25.00 DK-76129 7. Joshi, Natavarlal, 1942- Poetry, creativity, and aesthetic experience : [Sanskrit poetics and literary criticism] / Natavarlal Joshi ; foreword, V.M. Kulkarni. -- 1st ed. -- Delhi, India : Eastern Book Linkers, 1994. xvi, 251 p. ; 23 cm. Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--University of Bombay, 1993) under the title: Poetic composition, its cause and purpose. Includes bibliographical references (p. [241]-246). Includes index. ISBN 81-85133-94-8 1. Poetics. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $20.80 DK-88277 8. Kane, P. V. (Pandurang Vaman), 1880-1972. History of Sanskrit poetics / P.V. Kane. -- Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1994. viii, 446 p. ; 23 cm. Originally published: 4th ed. 1971. Includes bibliographical references. Includes index. ISBN 81-208-0274-8 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $15.80 DK-89275 9. Karan, Anita, 1961- Pratiharendureja's contribution to Sanskrit poetics / Anita Karan. -- 1st ed. -- Delhi : Eastern Book Linkers, 1988. xiv, 68 p. ; 23 cm. Footnotes in English and Sanskrit. Thesis (M. Phil.)--University of Delhi, 1985. Bibliography: p. [62]-65. Includes index. ISBN 81-85133-17-4 1. Pratiharenduraja. 2. Poetics, Sanskrit. $4.60 DK-56966 10. Kulkarni, V. M. (Vaman Mahadeo), 1917- More studies in Sanskrit sahitya-sastra / V.M. Kulkarni. -- 1st ed. -- Ahmedabad : Saraswati Pustak Bhandar, 1993. 211 p. ; 25 cm. -- (Saraswati oriental series ; no. 6). Includes verses in Sanskrit; with English translation. Running title: More studies in sahityasastra. On Sanskrit poetics and aesthetics. Includes bibliographical references (p. 211). Includes index. 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Aesthetics, Sanskrit. 3. Sanskrit literature. $20.80 DK-82912 11. Lahiri, P.C. (Prakas Chandra), 1906- Concepts of riti and guna in Sanskrit poetics in their historical development / P.C. Lahiri. -- 1st Indian ed. -- Delhi : V.K. Pub. House, 1987. vii, 308 p. ; 23 cm. Includes verses in Sanskrit (roman). Reprint. Originally published: Dacca : Dacca University, 1937. (Dacca University bulletin ; 18). Thesis (Ph. D.)--Dacca University, 1934. Bibliography: p. [275]-279. Includes indexes. 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. 3. Sanskrit language--Rhetoric. $8.30 DK-55883 12. Misra, Prafulla Kumar, 1954- Sanskrit poetics : with contribution of Orissa / Prafulla Kumar Misra. -- Delhi : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1988. xi, 352 p. : geneal. tables ; 22 cm. English and Sanskrit (roman) Running title: Sanskrit poetics : Orrisan contribution. Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--Utkal University, 1983) under the title: Contribution of Orissan authors to Sanskrit poetics. Bibliography: p. 335-348. Includes index. "Errata": 2 p. tipped in. ISBN 81-217-0037-X 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Poets, Sanskrit--India--Orissa. $16.70 DK-57269 13. Mukherji, Ramaranjan, 1928- Literary criticism in ancient India / Ramaranjan Mukherji. -- 2nd ed. -- Calcutta, India : Sanskrit Pustak Bhandar, 1990. xiv, 573 p. ; 22 cm. Includes bibliographical references (p. [519]-573). 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Aesthetics, Sanskrit. 3. Aesthetics, Comparative. 4. Sanskrit literature--History and criticism. $25.00 DK-85610 14. Nagendra, 1915- A dictionary of Sanskrit poetics / Nagendra. -- Delhi : B.R. Pub. Corp. ; New Delhi, 1987. 207 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. English and Sanskrit (Devanagari and roman) ISBN 81-7018-396-0 1. Poetics, Sanskrit--Dictionaries--Sanskrit. 2. Sanskrit language--Dictionaries--English. 3. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $10.40 DK-49364 15. Panda, P. K. (Pradipta Kumar), 1959- Concept of dhvani in Sanskrit poetics : Indian theory of suggestion and principles of literary criticism, in the light of Anandavardhana's Dhvanyaloka and its commentator Madhusudan Misra's Avadhana commentary / P.K. Panda ; foreword by B.M. Chaturvedi. -- Delhi : Penman Publishers, 1988. xiv, 152 p. : geneal. table ; 22 cm. Bibliography: p. [139]-145. Includes index. 1. Anandavardhana, 9th cent. Dhvanyaloka. 2. Misra, Madhusudan, 1872-1944. Avadhana. 3. Poetics, Sanskrit. $10.00 DK-57211 16. Prakrit verses in Sanskrit works on poetics / edited by V.M. Kulkarni. -- 1st ed. -- Delhi : B.L. Institute of Indology, 1988- v. ; 25 cm. -- (B.L. series ; no. 6). English, Prakrit and Sanskrit. Includes corrections and additions and indexes. Contents: v. 1. Text : with Sanskrit cchaya, appendixes and indexes. Vol. 1 (602, 40, 129 p.) rec'd ; to be complete in 2 v. 1. Prakrit poetry. 2. Poetics, Sanskrit. $13.30 (v. 1) DK-65449 17. Rajendran, C. (Chettiarthodi), 1952- A transcultural approach to Sanskrit poetics / C. Rajendran. -- [Calicut] : C. Rajendran, 1994. 109 p. ; 22 cm. Includes bibliographical references (p. [100]-105). Includes index. 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $5.00 (ubd.) DK-91398 18. Sadhale, Nalini, 1934- Katha in Sanskrit poetics / by Nalini Sadhale. -- 1st ed. -- Hyderabad, A. P., India : Sanskrit Academy, Osmania University, 1986. 76 p. ; 22 cm. -- (Sanskrit Academy series ; 37). Includes Sanskrit text of Kathalakshanam; with English translation. Study on the various forms of the story in the theoretical works of Sanskrit and Prakrit literature. Includes bibliographical references. 1. Poetics. 2. Sanskrit literature--History and criticism. 3. Prakrit literature--History and criticism. $1.30 DK-70871 19. Schelling, Andrew, 1953- Twilight speech : essays on Sanskrit and Buddhist poetics / Andrew Schelling. -- Calcutta : Punthi Pustak, 1993. 151 p. ; 22 cm. Articles; Previously published. Includes bibliographical references (p. [148]-151). ISBN 81-85094-64-0 1. Poetics. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. 3. Buddhist poetry--History and criticism. 4. Prakrit poetry--History and criticism. $15.40 DK-85792 20. Sharma, Brahmanand, 1923- [Rasalocana. English & Sanskrit] Reassessment of rasa theory = Rasalocanam / by Brahmanand Sharma ; with English translation by B.N. Sharma, author & Prabhakar Shastri. -- 1st ed. -- Jaipur : B.N. Sharma, 1985. 57, 78 p. ; 22 cm. Text in Sanskrit; translation and pref. in English. Added t.p. in Sanskrit. "Advanced research project approved by U.G.C." Treatise on the theory of sentiment (rasa) in Sanskrit poetics. 1. Sentimentalism in literature. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. 3. Poetics, Sanskrit. $5.00 DK-47414 21. Shastri, Mool Chand, 1930- Buddhistic contribution to Sanskrit poetics / Mool Chand Shastri. -- 1st ed. -- Delhi : Parimal Publications, 1986. xii, 167 p. ; 22 cm. Includes quotations in Sanskrit. Thesis (Ph. D.)--University of Delhi, 1972. Includes bibliographical references. 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Buddhist poetry, Sanskrit--History and criticism. 3. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $8.30 DK-48143 22. Siddhartha, Sundari. Post Mammata Sanskrit poetics : as reflected in Nanjarajayasobhusana / Sundari Siddhartha. -- Delhi : Publication Division, University of Delhi, c1992. xv, 281 p. : map ; 22 cm. Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--University of Delhi, 1987) under the title: A study of Nanjarajayasobhusana of Narasimha Kavi. Includes bibliographical references (p. [253]-267). Includes index. ISBN 81-85695-01-6 1. Narasinha Kavi, 18th cent. Nanjarajayasobhusana. 2. Poetics, Sanskrit--Early works to 1800. 3. Poetics--Early works to 1800. $15.00 DK-80675 23. Sriramachandrudu, P. (Pullela), 1927- The contribution of Panditaraja Jagannatha to Sanskrit Poetics / P. Sri Ramachandrudu ; foreword by K. Krishnamoorthy. -- 1st ed. -- Delhi : Nirajana Publishers & Book Sellers, 1983. 2 v. (xv, iv, 581 p.) ; 22 cm. Includes quotations in Sanskrit. Thesis (Ph.D.)--Osmania University, 1968. Bibliography: p. 566-576. Includes glossary and index. 1. Jagannatha Panditaraja, 17th cent. 2. Poetics. 3. Sanskrit Poetry--History and criticism. $25.00 per set. DK-34762 24. Swaroop, Sharda, 1925- The role of dhvani in Sanskrit poetics / Sharda Swaroop ; foreword by P.L. Vaidya. -- Moradabad : Onkar Swaroop, [1984] 333 p. ; 23 cm. Includes quotations in Sanskrit. Thesis (Ph. D.)--Banaras Hindu University, 1958. "Textual authority indicated by foot-notes": p. 293-322 (in Sanskrit). Bibliography: p. [323]-326. Includes errata and index. 1. Poetics, Sanskrit. 2. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. 3. Rhythm. 4. Sound. $6.70 DK-45071 25. Visvanatha Kaviraja, 14th cent. [Sahityadarpana. English]. The sahitya-darpana, or, Mirror of composition of Visvanatha : a treatise on poetical criticism / translated by J.R. Ballantyne and Pramada Dasa Mitra. -- Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1994. xvii, 444 p. ; 23 cm. Translated from Sanskrit. Includes passages in Sanskrit. Caption title: The mirror of composition. Originally published: The mirror of composition, a treatise on poetical criticism. Calcutta : Printed by C.B. Lewis, 1875. ISBN 81-208-1145-3 1. Poetics. 2. Poetics, Sanskrit. 3. Sanskrit poetry--History and criticism. $29.20 DK-97058 From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 22 06:44:21 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:44:21 +0500 Subject: More news about India Message-ID: <161227037804.23782.7557909299544715453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:08 PM 4/21/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, IAOmar wrote: > >> Does anyone have any idea about if this is some regular practice or a >> single incident? > >>> Family sacrifices father, eats his flesh at Kali puja In Varanasi, Ram >>> Sevak Chowhan's family beheaded him, ate his flesh and danced around >>> with his blood smeared on their body. They also chopped off the tongues >>> of his two daughters-in-law. >>> http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/apr/09sacri.htm > > >There was a feature article in the Sunday Times of London a few months >back about child sacrifice in contemporary India. It was linked to >"tantric" rites. Can't recall the ref., I'm afraid. > >All the best, >Dominik > >-- >Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 >Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ > the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk >Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk >London NW1 2BE, England. > >First Rule of History: > History doesn't repeat itself -- historians merely repeat each other. > > I do not subscribe to the practice of human sacrifice. India has a free press. Considering human sacrifice is a sensational item the press will report such incidents without fail in order to increase circulation, it is obvious that such incidents are not common or atleast no more than other types of inhuman practices in the rest of the world. There are sick people in India just there are such people elsewhere.I thought Lars Mortin Fousse's well-balanced and level headed posting, will make others to see things in proper perspective and stop baiting Hindus. Here is his posting: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read some years ago in The Economist (I think) that about a 100 people were "sacrificed" in India every year. Considering that India has a population of about 900 million people, I think the right reference here is not "history of religion" but psychopathology. Compare weird religious acts in Christian extremist sects, as well as other non-Christian extreme sects in the West. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo From adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Apr 22 01:46:34 1998 From: adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:46:34 +1000 Subject: Nehru Museum Contact Information Requested Message-ID: <161227037801.23782.4020814687991331893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists, [Yet] another request for contact information, this time concerning: Mr A K Awasthi, Reprographic Centre, Nehru Museum in New Delhi I am looking for a mailing address, a telephone number, an e-mail address.... merci d'avance, Adrian Burton. From umadevi at SFO.COM Wed Apr 22 19:11:38 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 12:11:38 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037843.23782.5838723841986385530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J Kingston Cowart wrote: > >I want to remind that human sacrifice (however detestable it may be) is not > >confined only to Hinduism but practically all religions except perhaps > >Buddhism and Jainism. After all Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his > >son but was permitted to sacrifice a ram instead of him. > > > One does well to recall these facts of the Western tradition: 1) it was never > God's intent that Isaac actually be sacrificed; 2) there are no texts in > Judaism, > Christianity, or Islam which specify the conditions and methods of human > sacrifice. It is indeed proscribed rather than prescribed. I was going to stay out of this thread, since this topic is a large part of my dissertation and I am sort of up to my ears in it, but I felt compelled to jump in. Sorry! Indian sacrificial tradition is not isolated. Much of Western thought stems from the idea that the Biblical God is entitled to ask for human sacrifice. In Exodus (22:29) Yahweh demands the sacrifice of the Israelites' first-born sons: "You shall not delay to offer from the fulness of your harvest and from the outflow of your presses. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.". In Ezekiel (20:26) it is clarified that this sacrifice was a punishment inflicted by God: "that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord." The Mosaic laws (ca. 1300 B.C.) specifically forbade the Jews from sacrificing their children to Moloch. The god also known as Ba'al, accepted child sacrifice and was worshipped throughout the Middle East. "You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Moloch and so profane the name of your God" (Leviticus 18:21). The emphasis rests not on the horror of child sacrifice but on the dishonor done to Yahweh. The Biblical passages appear ambiguous whether some Jews did offer their children to Moloch or whether the law is a prohibition against the possibility that some might take up the practice. King Solomon offered sacrifice to Moloch and to the god Chemosh in the 10th century BC (1 Kings 11:7-8). Three centuries later the kings Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Manasseh (2 Kings 21:6) worshipped Moloch right outside the walls of Jerusalem on the hill of Topheth. The site was destroyed under the reign of Josiah, the reformer: "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or daughter as an offering to Moloch" (2 Kings 23:10). The passage from Leviticus forbids sacrifice to a rival god. Although the references are often oblique, the Hebrew Bible implies Yahweh's acceptance of, or need for human sacrifice. In the story of Jephthah and the oblation of his un-named daughter (Judges 11: 30-40), Jephthah promised God that he would sacrifice the first person to greet him upon return from battle. He sealed his military victory against the Ammonites by slitting his daughter?s throat and offering her life to Yahweh. This event was commemorated every year by a lamentation of the daughters of Israel. In the better known story of Abraham and Isaac (Genesis 22: 1-19) God?s awful demand for the sacrifice of Isaac, and Abraham?s willingness to comply is used as a model of obedience to the will of God. Yahweh was shown to be capriciously and omnipotently generous when he rescinded his demand and miraculously substituted a ram for Abraham?s only child. Mary Storm From dkprint at 4MIS.COM Wed Apr 22 16:23:32 1998 From: dkprint at 4MIS.COM (DK Printworld) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 12:23:32 -0400 Subject: Nehru Museum Contact Information Requested Message-ID: <161227037806.23782.3801168495932760341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Burton I provide below information about Mr. A. K. Awasthi Sh. A. K. Awasthi Reprographic Deptt. Nehru Memorial Museum and Library Theen Murti House New Delhi Phone: 301 6350 Fax: 301 5333 They don't have email at present. Adrian Burton wrote: > > Indologists, > > [Yet] another request for contact information, this time concerning: > > Mr A K Awasthi, > Reprographic Centre, > Nehru Museum in New Delhi > > I am looking for a mailing address, a telephone number, an e-mail address.... > > merci d'avance, > > Adrian Burton From lpatton at EMORY.EDU Wed Apr 22 16:39:29 1998 From: lpatton at EMORY.EDU (Laurie Patton) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 12:39:29 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice In-Reply-To: <01IW61YGKAWI000RGA@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037831.23782.14265883329660298538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are several people you might want to contact who work in the area of Meso-American religions who would be able to talk about this issue, or put you in touch with people who have done work on it: Lindsay Jones Dept. Comparative Studies Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio 43210 (jones.70 at osu.edu) Kay Reed Dept Religion DePaul University Chicago, Illinois, 60614 (kread at wppost.depaul.edu) David Carrasco Dept of Religion Princeton University Princeton, NJ 08540 (tlaloc at princeton.edu) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton + Dept. of Religion + Emory University + Atlanta, GA 30322 + PH: 404-727-5177 + FAX: 404-727-7597 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > On US TV, there are many programs that I have seen talk of > child sacrifice in Mayan societies as a ritual. > > New archaeological data, many child skulls with > holes, etc., Anybody who knows about > blood sacrifices in Meso America? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Wed Apr 22 11:58:15 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 12:58:15 +0100 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta In-Reply-To: <199804212103.RAA25747@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227037808.23782.8398870554585730086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is rather a lot to reply to in the last few postings. I am not indeed disputing that the Tamil devotional poetry is of early date or that it is the earliest of its kind---indeed I know of no close counterpart in Sanskrit. Nor am I alleging that it is easy to interpret. What I do dispute is that it can be regarded as authoritative for the "Saiva Siddhaanta as I defined it (i.e. as it is found expounded in the works of theologians from various parts of India up to and including Aghora"sivaacaarya, the 12th-century Saiddhaantika of Chidambaram and in the tantras known to those theologians). I am aware that the label "Saiva Siddhaanta subsequently came to denote a school with quite different theology and which regarded a broader canon of texts as authoritative. If you would like more evidence of a different kind to be convinced that Kaaraikkaalammaiyaar is not in this sense a Saiddhaantika, I can supply it. About Tirumuular, the evidence cited still does not seem to me to be conclusive (indeed it is the same evidence to which I had referred to), because, as I observed, the reference is only to the poet's name, and many names are used for more than one person. The argument is actually not mine, but Vaiyapuripillai's. I do not know whether it has yet been satisfactorily answered. It is indeed possible that Tirumuular attests ideas that are first found much later in the Sanskrit literature, but I should like to see firm arguments that date him before being persuaded either way. As for the syncretic character of his religiosity, what I meant was that he blends a number of traditions (Vedaantic, Pauraa.nik, Saiddhaantika, and, as I mentioned, "Sriividyaa). This does not, of course, pin down any date, but it is definitely uncharacteristic of the early Siddhaanta as I have defined it, which, as I have said, sees itself as superior to Vedic teaching, not on a par with it, and is wholly dualistic (with the single exception of the Sarvaj~naanottara, and that text's brand of non-dualism seems to me not to be a Vedaantic one). Yours, Dominic Goodall From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 22 20:11:23 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 14:11:23 -0600 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037840.23782.4757277012671749366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The child sacrifice, first attested in Tamil texts, (it appears in Telugu and Marathi later) and a comparison to the Western traditions (Abraham, etc.,) is well analyzed in David Shulman, The hungry God, Hindu tales of filicide and devotion. U. Chicago press, 1993 Can someone still summarize the child sacrifice, blood letting amidst Mayas, please. (I will contact the Mayan experts, provided by Dr. L. Patton little later). N. Ganesan From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Apr 22 19:11:37 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 15:11:37 -0400 Subject: SITA IN THE CITY (on display in NY) Message-ID: <161227037841.23782.6579887328278091329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to forward the following event announcement to your mailing list or listserv. Please do not reply to me. For any further information, please see the web page listed below. I have no further information on this event. Thank you. David (sarai) Magier *************NOW ON DISPLAY****** SITA IN THE CITY: THE RAMAYANA'S HEROINE IN NEW YORK An exhibition of ideas and images in conjunction with the international Sita Symposium that will explore how Sita is imagined by diverse communities in the greater New York area. ____________________________________________ Thursday, April 16 to Monday, May 4, 1998 Columbia University: The Rotunda, Low Library 116th Street and Broadway, NYC ____________________________________________ FOR MORE INFORMATION, VISIT http://www.columbia.edu/cu/dhirc/sitacity.html From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Apr 22 19:35:21 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 15:35:21 -0400 Subject: address in Hyderabad needed Message-ID: <161227037845.23782.402791719317323331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is the address Harry Falk requested: Dr. N.S. Ramachandra Murthy Assistant Director Archaeology Dept. 5-9-143 Gun Foundry PMBX 2 Lines Hyderabad - 1 Andhra Pradesh tel. 23-7216 Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Pennsylvania Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Wed Apr 22 14:38:07 1998 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 16:38:07 +0200 Subject: More news about India In-Reply-To: <199804220128.DAA20052@smtp3.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <161227037813.23782.9400352265001621412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:31 AM 22/04/1998 +0200, you wrote: >1998-04-21 17:08? Dominik Wujastyk, ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK wrote: > >>There was a feature article in the Sunday Times of London a few months >>back about child sacrifice in contemporary India.? It was linked to >>"tantric" rites.? Can't recall the ref., I'm afraid. > > > Here's an article from the Sunday Tribune of India of a few months > back. > > Jaap Pranger > > > >?? ------------------------ >?? The Sunday Tribune, November 16, 1997 > >?? Tantrik father unrepentant > >?? From K.G.Dutt >?? Tribune News Service > >?? JIND, Nov 15 _ The brutal human sacrifice of >?? seven-year-old Shambu has sent shock waves in >?? Jambewa village and adjoining areas. People are >?? aghast at the gory episode. Reports gathered by >?? this correspondent indicate that it is the first >?? incident of its kind in the area. If this murder it is the first (and only) incident of this kind, it has nothing to do with a ritual. If there is no ritual it is not? a "brutal human sacrifice" it is an instance of mental illness... Regards J.F. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Apr 22 16:00:34 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 18:00:34 +0200 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227037822.23782.17147336783960202131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:36 22.04.98 -0400, you wrote: >Jean Fezas said about the human sacrifice reported from Jambewa: > >"If this murder it is the first (and only) incident of this kind, it has nothing to >do with a ritual. >If there is no ritual it is not a "brutal human sacrifice" it is an instance of >mental illness..." > >Not quite. It's the first reported from this locality, not the first in India. After >all, one can buy the Kalikapurana in the bazar and find a ritual for human >sacrifice in it. > >Allen Thrasher Hm. Not quite?. I think it depends upon how "human sacrifice" is treated in practical life. It can for instance be regarded as a symbolic event and not necessarily entail the killing of a human being. If we go back 2000 years or so (or in Scandinavia, merely a 1000 years), human sacrifice was practiced on a regular basis as part of a (mainstream) cult (e.g. at the "hov" in Uppsala, where people were hanged as sacrifices to Odin/Wotan according to Adam of Bremen). Hinduism does not practice human sacrifice as a matter of course, to the contrary, there is very early a reaction against all sorts of bloody sacrifices. The case reported here recently about a man who sacrificed his son is in my opinion clearly pathological. So I still think human sacrifices in India should be relegated to the field of psychiatry rather than the field of Indology. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Apr 22 23:34:51 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 19:34:51 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037853.23782.15891732767380276498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have to agree with Mary Storm and Lars Martin Fosse that there are in fact clear vestiges of sacrificial thinking in both Judaism and Christianity. But in response to N. Ganesan's post, I would go one step further, and suggest that there are traces of sacrificial thinking in Buddhism and Jainism too. The difference, more or less great depending on your point of view, is that the sacrificial violence in Buddhism and Jainism is self-directed, rather than directed at a surrogate victim. Coincidentally, there has been a thread on "self-sacrificing Buddhas" on the RISA list recently. As for Vedic, I think that this tradition offers a clearer picture of sacrificial logic than any tradition that I myself am aware of. This is not to say that Vedic is more sacrificial than other traditions. Rather, it was more determined to preserve a memory of the old sacrificial paradigm, in spite of any moral reservations that individuals may have had [and they did have some]. I'm convinced that familiarity with Vedic is crucial for an understanding of this kind of "logic", which goes back well beyond Indo-European traditions, perhaps deep into neolithic prehistory. In my view, the problem of sacrifice is not a problem belonging to this race or that one, this religion or that one. It is a pan-species problem that persists, everywhere, even today. [Clearly I have been influenced here by the theories of Girard and Burkert, but I sincerely believe that I have a strong advantage over these scholars, insofar as I have access to Vedic.] Best wishes, George Thompson From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Apr 22 18:04:01 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 20:04:01 +0200 Subject: Aryan Invasion theory disproved?? Message-ID: <161227037833.23782.15629607627204532359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Harshavardhan, and welcome to the list! There has been a substantial debate concerning the problem you're interested in on this list some time ago. If you check out the Indology database (where all messages are kept), you will find a lot of what your heart desires. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 22 15:14:16 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 20:14:16 +0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227037815.23782.15339360954169954558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Palaniappan: The reference is to DEDR item 1762. Regards, Bh.K. At 22:30 20/04/98 EDT, you wrote: >Dear Dr. Krishnamurti, >In a message dated 98-01-19 03:50:58 EST, you write: > ><< Also notice that the contracted form of > kuyawa occurs as ko: within Ta.Kota, Toda and Kannada. Emeneau derives the > name Kota from the potter word, ko:v 'a Kota man'. >> > >Do you have the reference for this work by Emeneau? > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 22 15:17:17 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 20:17:17 +0500 Subject: solution to the "kuyava' etymology Message-ID: <161227037816.23782.17487652007779842581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:30 20/04/98 EDT, you wrote: >Dear Dr. Krishnamurti, >In a message dated 98-01-19 03:50:58 EST, you write: > ><< Also notice that the contracted form of > kuyawa occurs as ko: within Ta.Kota, Toda and Kannada. Emeneau derives the > name Kota from the potter word, ko:v 'a Kota man'. >> > >Do you have the reference for this work by Emeneau? > >Regards >S. Palaniappan Dear Palaniappan: The reference is to DEDR item 1762. Regards, Bh.K. end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Apr 22 18:22:26 1998 From: ar.zeini at UNI-KOELN.DE (Arash Zeini) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 20:22:26 +0200 Subject: Indian Lexicography Message-ID: <161227037835.23782.11658857834162814454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the list, I am looking for references and information about the traditional "pArasIkoSa"s (Persian-Sanskrit dictionaries) and I know "Indian Lexicography" of Prof. Vogel. Is there any Sanskrit-Persian dictionary too? With best wishes, Arash From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 22 16:41:56 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 21:41:56 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227037825.23782.2485087998564406465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:36 AM 4/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >Jean Fezas said about the human sacrifice reported from Jambewa: > >"If this murder it is the first (and only) incident of this kind, it has nothing to >do with a ritual. >If there is no ritual it is not a "brutal human sacrifice" it is an instance of >mental illness..." > >Not quite. It's the first reported from this locality, not the first in India. After >all, one can buy the Kalikapurana in the bazar and find a ritual for human >sacrifice in it. > >Allen Thrasher > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >Senior Reference Librarian >Southern Asia Section >Asian Division >Library of Congress >101 Independence Ave., S.E. >Washington, DC 20540-4714 >tel. (202) 707-3732 >fax (202) 707-1724 >email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. > > I want to remind that human sacrifice (however detestable it may be) is not confined only to Hinduism but practically all religions except perhaps Buddhism and Jainism. After all Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his son but was permitted to sacrifice a ram instead of him. regards, sarma. religion From barathi at PC.JARING.MY Wed Apr 22 14:15:59 1998 From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 22:15:59 +0800 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037811.23782.13991948521793516198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, The works of Karaikkaal Ammaiyaar, Appar, and Sambandhar can be considered to be works which don't actually belong to a particular sect among the Saivites. The Saiva Siddhantins have taken them as they are acceptable to them. During the time of Karaikkaal Ammaiyaar and Appar, the Pasupathas seem to have been around. Scrutinising Appar, one would find that his patterns of doctrines and his directions are rather different from Sambandhar. It is easy to perceive certain other elements in the Thevaram of Appar. The Siva whom he extols in many of his verses is the Siva of the Pasupathas. The Thiru Aaruur Pathigam refers to Pasupathas/Kapalikas. He denounces casteism, Vedic practices, and other rituals. There are certain places in Appar's Thevaram, where even traces of Advaita can be found. So Appar per se could not have been a Saiva Siddhantin as the word would mean today. He was a staunch Saivite with his advanced theoloical views and commited direct Bhakthi approach, simple enough for any man to follow, combined in his own doctrine- the "Dayaa Muula Dharma". The Saiva Siddhantins accepted him just as any Pasupatha Saivite might accept him, if there were one now. Karaikkaal Ammaiyaar is also anther person who belongs to all. The chronology of Thirumanthiram is a riddle. There is an interesting piece of of information. It is found in the annals of Thiru Aavadu Thurai Aadheenam, the Saivite Peetam. Thirumuular, the author of ThiruManthiram is said to have stayed for a long time in Thiru Aavadu Thurai. He then went to Kailas and attained Samadhi. His manuscript of the Thiru Manthiram was kept in a secret vault below the sacrificial alter(Bali Peetam) in the temple of GoMuktheeswarar temple of Thiru Aavadu Thurai. Sambandhar, when he was worshipping at this temple, had a very stange sensation. By some extra-sensory perception, he felt the presence of Thiru Manthiram. The annals call that sensation, "Thamilz maNam kamalzthal" i.e., the fragrance of Tamil. So, under the command of Sambandhar, the alter was broken and excavated, and the Thiru Manthiram manuscripts were retrieved. This annal places Thirumular before Sambandhar. The fact is that Sri Vidya, Sri Chakra, Navakshari, etc., are dealt with in the 4th Tantra of Thiru Manthiram. The Sanskrit manuscripts on these subjects are of a later date. That alone would not mean that Thiru Manthiram is is a later work. There can be more than one possibility. Sri Vidya could have originated in South India. Might be it was Sanscritised and elaborated upon, in order to be spread all over India. Just a conjecture. There are certain lines of Tamil Siddhars who are Shakthas and Tantrics. Karuvuur Siddhar, a disciple belonging to a lineage from Thiru Muular was a Sri Vidya practioner and an accomplished Tantric. He is reputed with having installed the Siva Lingam in the Brihat Iswara Temple of Tanjavur. His Thiru Isaip Paa is also compiled into the ninth Saivite Thiru Murai. His guru's guru(parama guru) Bogar was also a Tantric as well as a Shaktha. The tradition was already there among the Tamil Siddhars. So much of the Tamil Siddhars and their works are shrouded in mystery and secrecy and so little research has been done in that field. The other possibility is that, what you people got is a later edition/reprint of the SriVidya manuscript:-) Regards Jayabarathi At 08:47 PM 4/21/98 +0100, you wrote: >First of all, a correction to my earlier posting. The Paarame"svaratantra >MS in Cambridge is dated 828 AD, and not 819, as I had previously >asserted. > >I do not think that Kaaraikkaal ammaiyaar can be considered to have >belonged to the "Saiva Siddhaanta---at least not to the "Saiva Siddhaanta >that we find recorded in the works of Saiddhaantika theologians up to and >including Aghora"siva (fl.1157 in Chidambaram) or in the Saiddhaantika >scriptures known to those theologians. It is difficult to infer >theological positions from her poetry---as it is from the Tamil poetry of >other devotees of "Siva (you mention Appar and ~Naanacampantar). They >were Maahe"svaras (i.e. lay devotees of "Siva), but not, I think, >Saiddhaantikas, even though later South Indian Saiddhaantikas may have >regarded them as such. > >You mention also Tirumuular and observe that different scholars assign him >widely different dates. As far as I am aware, there is little firm >external evidence by which he might be dated (no more, perhaps, than an >early reference to a certain `Muular'---not compelling because of the >problem familiar to indologists of what I have heard called `narrow >onomasty'). Both his language (as was pointed out by Vaiyapuripillai, the >editor of a number of volumes of Madras University's Tamil Lexicon, in his >History of Tamil Literature) and also the syncretic character of his >religiosity (he included not just Saiddhaantika ideas, but also the >"Sriicakra and the "Sriividyaa, for which the first Sanskrit sources are >relatively late) suggest that he should be assigned rather a late date >than an early one. > >Perhaps you, or others reading this, are aware of firm evidence or >convincing arguments by which Tirumuular might plausibly be dated? >Yours, >Dominic Goodall. > > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Apr 22 20:19:41 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 22:19:41 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037849.23782.2830245497796495183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >One does well to recall these facts of the Western tradition: 1) it was never >God's intent that Isaac actually be sacrificed; 2) there are no texts in >Judaism, >Christianity, or Islam which specify the conditions and methods of human >sacrifice. It is indeed proscribed rather than prescribed. Hm... Would it be tactless to remind the readers of the fact that the Christian religion is based on one case of human sacrifice, that is, the sacrifice of the son of God by God? Although the sacrifice of human beings is strictly forbidden by Christianity, it still got started (theologically at least) with something that can only be described as a human sacrifice. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Apr 22 20:19:44 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 22:19:44 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037847.23782.1866422995860820743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The passage from Leviticus forbids sacrifice to a rival god. Although >the references are often oblique, the Hebrew Bible implies Yahweh's >acceptance of, or need for human sacrifice. In the story of Jephthah and >the oblation of his un-named daughter (Judges 11: 30-40), Jephthah >promised God that he would sacrifice the first person to greet him upon >return from battle. He sealed his military victory against the Ammonites >by slitting his daughter's throat and offering her life to Yahweh. A somewhat similar motive is known in Greek legend, where Idomeneus (returning from Troy) promises to sacrifice the first person he meets on the beach after a ship-wreck to Neptun. The person turns out to be his son. Mozart has made a wonderful opera on the basis of this theme (Idomeneo, third act particularly recommended). Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From sudheerbirodkar at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 23 06:08:55 1998 From: sudheerbirodkar at YAHOO.COM (sudheer birodkar) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 23:08:55 -0700 Subject: Aryan Invasion theory disproved?? Message-ID: <161227037855.23782.5130363587299152416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harshavardhan, Welcome to the Indology List. I have visited your page on the Indian Army (Thal Sena). Good Job. The AIT is not my area of specialzation. But I believe that the Aryans did come from outside India. The Rig Veda talks about derstuction of cities (one of the it called Hari-yu-piya - Harrappa?). In Tamil Nadu, I am told, there is a festival comemorating the "Ayyannars". In this festival huge wodden horses are created. This may be a recollection of the coming of the Horse-riding Aryans. The word "Ayyannar", I presume connotes Aryans. This apart, I do not have much on the AIT to tell you, but I have received critical feedback on my pages where I have refered to the Aryans as having come from outside India. As I am basically a student of the history of Science & Technolgy in Ancient India and of Sociology, it does not matter from where the Aryans really came, or if they originated in India. But with some folks, this is an emotional point. I feel that Indians are a mix of various strains, as is true for people all over the globe. Sudheer Birodkar ---Harshavardhan Vedak wrote: > > Hello, > > I am new to this mailing list and not an expert in Indology in any respect, > I am just a student interested in the research being done today in this > field. > > I heard from a website (I'm sorry, but I forgot the address, I'll send it > at a later date when I re-find it) made by this one bloke, Indian, who > claimed he was a professor in the field of Indology. His website was about > how he is trying to disprove the Aryan invasion theory based on research > and recent archeological excavations in the Kutch area of Gujrat. He > claims that in a Harappan city (he christened it "Dwarka") that was > uncovered there he has discovered evidence based on pottery, horse > skeletons, etc.. that the Aryan invasion theory is something conjured up > by (no offence) Western European based scientists of the 19th century. He > states that Indian civilization and culture has directly descended from the > Harappan civilization and for every point that the Aryan invasion theory > gives, he gives a counterexample. For instance, he says he has proof that > the Ashokan pillar script comes from the Harappan script. He gives a lot of > other reasons that sound convincing to one who hasn't been educated in this > field. > > As you can tell, I am skeptical. Is this guy for real? Do the points he > makes have any evidence to back it up? I would appreciate anyone's reply. > Thanks. > > Oh yes, I'll try to find that website again (I accessed it last year > sometime). > > Best Regards, > > -Harshavardhan Vedak > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > A Webmaster of Bharat Rakshak- the Consortium > of Indian Military Websites @: > http://www.bharat-rakshak.com > > Please visit my Indian Army page @: > http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY > > Jai Hind!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK Thu Apr 23 00:25:40 1998 From: vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Harshavardhan Vedak) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 01:25:40 +0100 Subject: Aryan Invasion theory disproved?? Message-ID: <161227037859.23782.4214987091742477166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Thanks for all your replies regarding the question about the Harappan theory. S. Krishna Wrote: > Aaaah, Harsha! I really appreciate your very lucid and frank style of > writing...true, the guy is a bloke and a joke( a fairly poor one at > that) and there has been a lot of discussion stored in the INDOLOGY > list archives about the Indus valley civilization and I suggest that you > go take a look at it... Thanks, I'll check it out. > The guy you refered to as "claiming to be a prof" is REAL( reply to > the question above:-); I believe that the choice can be reduced to just > two people, Subhash Kak of Louisiana State University or S.Kalyanaraman > who runs his own "loser's laboratory" in Madras. The first used to write > on this list a looooong time ago until he was chased out, the > second(Kalyanaraman) is not only present on this net(YES,ON INDOLOGY > LIST)but also going strong...What is even more interesting is that this > "Don Quixote" has also ended up with an assistant, "SAncho Panza" who I can tell you are a skecptic too, but I have to admit that the professer(s) whichever one they were, made some valid points about the theory (still looking for the page!) Though it might not be correct to say that the Aryan Invasions are false, there are holes in the theory as pointed out by the author of the page. > also goes by S.N.Subrahmanya. The reason why I'm telling you all this is > that the later has a tendency for getting fairly unpleasant and then > indulging in ad-hominiem attacks...so, your posting may invoke the wrath > of both the "professor" and his cyber-asst and you may be the recipient > of unpleasant email...so, take care and watch out:-) Disclaimer :^) - I mean no insult whatsoever to the above mentioned (and I didn't call him/them a "loser") Sudheer Birodkar wrote: > Welcome to the Indlogy List. I have visited your page on the Indian > Army (Thal Sena). Good Job. I'm glad you liked it. One of the reasons I've subscribed to this list is that I will soon be adding (hopefully large) section about the armies of ancient India. I'll check out your page later today. > The AIT is not my area of specialzation. But I believe that the Aryans > did come from outside India. The Rig Veda talks about derstuction of > cities (one of the it called Hari-yu-piya - Harrappa?). In Tamil Nadu, > I am told, there is a festival comemorating the "Ayyannars". In this > festival huge wodden horses are created. This may be a recollection of > the coming of the Horse-riding Aryans. The word "Ayyannar", I presume > connotes Aryans Just one question, (actually two) how did the name for the city "Harappa" come about? And if the Aryan's really pushed the original inhabitants of India back to what is now south India (as the AIT states), why whould there be a festival comemmerating the arrival of raiders? I believe I've wasted enough of everyones time now, Best regards, -Harshavardhan Vedak ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Webmaster of Bharat Rakshak- the Consortium of Indian Military Websites @: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com Please visit my Indian Army page @: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY Jai Hind!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK Thu Apr 23 02:51:18 1998 From: vedak at GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Harshavardhan Vedak) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 03:51:18 +0100 Subject: Apology (very very very very sorry) Message-ID: <161227037864.23782.10774659542849090118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all I am very very very (I can't stress this enough) sorry for posting a personal reply to this list. I am _deeply_ _deeply_ sorry for any damage done!!! As I have said, it is my responsibility for this and I deeply regret waht I have done. This is very unethical and I am terribly sorry for any consequences. I can't stress this enough. I am SORRY. I am sorry and as of now am leaving this list. My aoplogies. Sorry, Harsh Vedak From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 23 14:20:00 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 08:20:00 -0600 Subject: canon of "Saiva Siddhaanta Message-ID: <161227037857.23782.4748546961209234088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Goodall, V. Subramaniam (Prof. of Sanskrit, author of buddhist-hindu interactions from sakyamuni to sankaracharya, mother goddess and other goddesses, buddhism: dance and drama ...) informed me that Karaikkal Ammaiyar's description of Nataraja predate Sanskrit songs on Siva as the Dancer. K. Ammai has two decads describing vividly the burial ground, gaNas, ghosts, Siva dancing. Is this correct? Thanks, N. Ganesan I can check Sivaramamurti's books on Nataraja, the recent D. Smith's on Chidambaram, and S. R. B. Natarajan's Tillai and Nataraja. ************************************************************************** There is a short & sweet saying on Tevaram Trinity. Siva has declared: campantan tannaip paaTinaan; appan ennaip paaTinaan; cuntaran peNNaip paaTinaan. Siva said: Sambandhar sang about himself; (1) Appar sang about Me; (2) Sundarar sang about woman. (3) Note: (1) This refers to the Child Saint's commandments & declarations that this will happen. Often, Sambandhar is confidant about what he says. Also, Sambandhar is fond of describing the landscape, fauna, flora of the village/town he is visiting. As a child, he is attracted to flowers and birds. His descriptions of Nature are unequalled later. (2) Appar, the elder saint has philosophical musings. He describes Siva and his legends more. (3) Sundarar marries twice, cheats on his first wife, loses eyesight, pleads for wealth, etc., Regards, N. Ganesan From jkcowart at IO-ONLINE.COM Thu Apr 23 18:31:55 1998 From: jkcowart at IO-ONLINE.COM (J Kingston Cowart) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 11:31:55 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037866.23782.1731351361728690539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The instances of human sacrifice brought forward from the Hebrew scriptures by Mary Storm are not rituals per se, but are isolated instances. Jephthah's case, in particular, may be read as a lesson against hubris and manipulation of the deity, although it shows that human sacrifice was a cultural element--at least to some extent. With respect to Dr. Fosse's suggestion that Christianity was initiated in an act of human sacrifice, one might argue that a) this, too, was a singular event impossible of repetition, b) that it was not a ritual, and c) that from an internal theological/Christological perspective, it was an act of God's sacrificing himself. Naturally, these observations on the feature of human sacrifice ought not to be taken as value judgements regarding the inherent worth of either Hinduism or Christianity. J. Kingston Cowart San Diego, California From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 23 17:43:52 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 11:43:52 -0600 Subject: Aryan Invasion theory disproved?? Message-ID: <161227037862.23782.11292883235575697343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having the resources to have one's own websites does not determine the ancient history of India. :-) Yours, N. Ganesan PS: Did Harsha post a private mail sent to him ?!! From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Apr 23 21:40:33 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 14:40:33 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037874.23782.9312354318001577855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J Kingston Cowart wrote: > > The instances of human sacrifice brought forward from the Hebrew > scriptures by Mary Storm are not rituals per se, but are isolated > instances. Jephthah's case, in particular, may be read as a lesson > against hubris and manipulation of the deity, although it shows that > human sacrifice was a cultural element--at least to some extent. These are not isolated acts. The mention of sacrifices at Tophet and the concern evidenced by the practice indicate a repetitive pattern. The presence or absence of human sacrifice is sometimes used as a critical measure of a culture. This may take the critic onto shaky ground, as the practice was widespread in many of the world's traditions. The desire to remain ignorant of human sacrifice within the lineage of one's own tradition seems to be a common wish, almost as pervasive as the practice itself has been. Plutarch, in looking back to the Persian Wars, was appalled at the readiness of the Greeks to sacrifice three young men to Dionysus, "the Eater of Flesh," before a battle. Plutarch was appalled because he knew that Roman civilization emerged from the Greek, and that this grim side of Greek culture was an integral part of the Mediterranean religious patrimony. For the Romans, as well as the Greeks, the Persian Wars were the great struggle of Greek against barbarian; the fight for humanity and civilization. Thus to acknowledge this act of Greek religious cruelty was to question the very foundations of Plutarch's world. On the other hand it is sometimes surprising when an expected critic is open to the presence of human scarifice. For example, the sixteenth century Spanish missionary Bartolom? de Las Casas, in pleading for an understanding of Mesoamericans and their human sacrifice rituals, wrote: "It can be persuasively argued from the fact that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice to Him his only son Isaac, that it is not altogether detestable to sacrifice human beings to God." The terrible violence of human sacrifice makes it easy to interpret the practice as "primitive" or "barbaric." Yet as Plutarch and Bartolom? de Las Casas learned, human sacrifice was often part of religious systems that might initially appear repugnantly alien, but upon reflection must be understood as representing universal religious impulses. Mary Storm From umadevi at SFO.COM Thu Apr 23 21:44:27 1998 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 14:44:27 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037877.23782.6649914722994094416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > >J. Kingston Cowart wrote: > > > >With respect to Dr. Fosse's suggestion that Christianity was initiated > >in an act of human sacrifice, one might argue that a) this, too, was a > >singular event impossible of repetition, b) that it was not a ritual, and > >c) that from an internal theological/Christological perspective, it was > >an act of God's sacrificing himself. > > This is of course perfectly true. I also pointed out that human sacrifice is > strictly forbidden in Christianity. As for God sacrificing himself, I > thought that it was rather a case of God sacrificing his only *son* (who of > course is part of the Trinity). The interesting thing here, in my opinion, > is not the finer Christological point, but rather the point that Gods wants, > or even accepts, a sacrifice of this kind. In a sense, the sacrifice is > symbolically continued in the communion, where the believers eat the flesh > of the lord and drink his blood. (This is at least my interpretation, but > theologians may not concur). And the communion, as we know, is a ritual. Jesus' sacrifice was a judicial execution reconfigured to meet the theological demands of sacrifice. Jesus' crucifixion was the "seal" of sacrifice. The Crucifixion was interpreted by Christian theologians to be the last and final religious sacrifice, never to be repeated. How could any sacrifice offered by a human measure up to the sacrifice of the self-oblation of the Crucifixion? The Crucifixion offered redemption to sinners, not by way of the worshiper's sacrifice, but through the medium of God?s sacrifice of his own son. Jesus replaced the Biblical scapegoat, he was ?the Lamb of God,? and absorbed the sins of his followers. The real and sanguinary nature of Christ?s sacrifice was nevertheless acknowledged. In 1063 Lanfranc, the Abbot of Bec wrote: We believe that the earthly substance. . . is, by the ineffable, incomprehensible . . . operation of heavenly power, converted into the essence of the Lord?s body, while the appearance, and certain other qualities, of the same realities remain behind, in order that men should be spared the shock of perceiving raw and bloody things, and that believers should receive the fuller rewards of faith. Yet at the same time the same body of the Lord is in heaven. . . inviolate, entire, without contamination or injury. The need for repetition lies at the heart of all ritual, and with the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 this controversial Doctrine of the ?Transubstantiation,? or the Doctrine of the Real Presence, imbued the Eucharist with a reality which gave a doctrinal foundation for the repetitive sacrifice in the Mass. The Doctrine of the Transubstantiation asserts that in the Eucharistic elevation of the mass the bread of the communion wafer is transformed into the very body and the wine into the very blood of Christ. With this change the Mass is not just a commemoration of the Last Supper, but a repetitive enactment of the bloody sacrifice of the Crucifixion. Mary Storm From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 23 21:51:05 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 14:51:05 -0700 Subject: An apology(Was:Aryan Invasion theory disproved??) Message-ID: <161227037879.23782.17868685377587101540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This post is in connection with the ruckus earlier in the day as a result of Mr Harshavardhana Vedak posting an email intended for personal consumption and not for general consumption: I offer my heartfelt apologies to Messrs Subrahmanya,Kalyanaraman and Kak. MAny of the comments were unintended in the form in which they came out; while I certainly have disagreed with these gentlemen in the past, I respect their views and would have not used the kind of colorful verbiage that has appeared in the post. I was writing to a certain Dr Alak Bose(who does not appear on Indology list) in connection with a person who has been bombarding the two of us with hate- mail in connection with a different group. I was describing this person with the epithets used in the mail that appeared above. The epithets there were NOT intended to apply to Messrs Subrahmanya, Kalyanaraman or Kak but to the creature who has been sending me and Dr Bose mail. It was at this time that I noticed the mail from Mr Vedak and was concerned by the fact that he was refering to people in not too complimentary a fashion , more critical because some of the people actually appear on INDOLOGY group. I was therefore trying to caution him of the danger of writing things that may be interpreted as being insulting to people and in the process gave him some background on who the principal characters were. It turned out that the mailing mechanism garbled the two messages( sent in quick succession) and mixed them up; what was sent to Mr Vedak as PERSONAL mail contained parts of the two messages as was the case with what reached Dr Bose. I was therefore horrified to see Mr Vedak's reply sent to me( which is how I came to know about the mix-up), what absolutely mortified me was the fact that it had been ( for whatever reason) made completely public!!!! I am responsible for atleast starting( even with good intentions) this tragedy of errors; I however do wish that Mr Vedak had been a little more careful in examining the header and observe the usual rules about netiquette and not reply to the group at large. I hope that this explains the reason( from my side) for your seeing the very ungentelmanly and rather uncouth posting that you may have earlier in the day; I again apologize to Messrs Subrahmanya, Kalyanaraman and Kak for the mess that has been created. I reassure the gentlemen that the posting did not apply to them and request them to the overlook the same; I also reiterate that situations of this kind will be avoided in the future. I would like to apologize specially for all the grevious personal and character damage that has been done to them as a result of the posting. I request their indulgence and forgive me for the peculiar circumstances that have led to this very embarrassing circumstance. Most regretfully, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 23 20:57:51 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 14:57:51 -0600 Subject: Aryan Invasion theory disproved?? Message-ID: <161227037867.23782.18400111647234564844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:58:59 -0600 >Mr. Subrahmanya wrote: >> As the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory chokes,sputters and dies, so will its >> other face, the artificial Aryan(or the PC indo-european)/Dravidian language >> divide die under the weight of its own contradictions and distortions. Ganesan wrote: > >Even after revisionist attempts, majority of academics are confidant >and write that Aryans migrated into India and not the other way around. >That is., Aryans did not spread out from India. > > Narahari Achar wrote: *If my memory is right, Planck said somewhere that it is only DEATH that can *separate scientists from their pet theories. *-Narahari Achar I am getting little confused. Is DEATH coming to "Aryan Invasion theory is DEAD" theory? Planck's statement works either way, I guess. Regards, N. Ganesan From asia at SERVER.UWINDSOR.CA Thu Apr 23 21:51:41 1998 From: asia at SERVER.UWINDSOR.CA (Inst. Of Asian Cultures) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 17:51:41 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037882.23782.8646334119771932784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An excellent example of (alleged) human sacrifice in modern times in India is to be found in the initiation rites of the Khalsa where the tenth Guru of the Sikhs, Guru Govind Rai, founder of the Khalsa panth (sect or order), is supposed to have sacrificed the Five Beloved* who were miraculously brought back to life by Guru's grace. * Of course some writers of the time say it were not five humans, but five goats, that were sacrificed. Sushil Jain From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Apr 24 02:09:21 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 19:09:21 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037887.23782.582576181524981345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:11 PM 4/22/98 -0600, N. Ganesan wrote: >Can someone still summarize the child sacrifice, blood letting amidst >Mayas, please. (I will contact the Mayan experts, provided by >Dr. L. Patton little later). Human sacrifice was not only practiced by the Mayas but also, and probably more so, by the Aztecs. It was a widespread practice in Mesoamerica, and other groups also practiced it, such as the Mixtecs, the Otomi, and the Tarascans. There might be disagreements as to the extent and the exact circumstances under which it was practiced (voluntary or not, etc.), but it seems to be an undisputable fact that it was. Blood letting, as a form of self-sacrifice, was also practiced, usually with cactus thorns. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Thu Apr 23 23:14:20 1998 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 19:14:20 -0400 Subject: Again Message-ID: <161227037885.23782.14937032677662189657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know whether there are on-line or CD-ROM English translations of the following available? Ramanuja's "Shri-Bhashya," Shamkara's "Brahmasutra-Bhashya," Nagarjuna's "Madhyamika-Karika," and Vasubandhu's "Twenty Verses" and "Thirty Verses"? If so, can you instruct me as to how to obtain them? Thank you. From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Thu Apr 23 20:26:47 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 21:26:47 +0100 Subject: Dancing "Siva (and Tirumuular) In-Reply-To: <01IW7A95JJO20010JW@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037871.23782.7868174513547913975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan, You address your enquiry to me, so I feel obliged to reply, though other subscribers to the list may also have references they could supply to early accounts or mentions of \'Siva's dancing in Sanskrit literature. The following verse (from Umaa's impassioned defence of "Siva) is 5:78 (in Naaraaya.namuurti's edition with the commentary of Vallabhadeva) of Kaalidaasa's Kumaarasambhava:--- tada"ngasa.mspar"sam avaapya kalpate dhruva.m citaabhasmarajo vi"suddhaye| tathaa hi n.rttaabhinayakriyaacyutam vilipyate maulibhir ambaraukasaam|| 78|| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Chapter 162 (verses 26ff) of the Ur-Skandapuraa.na---which, according to the revised opinion of the team of scholars now editing it, may date from as early as the 6th century---describes "Siva's dancing, imitated first by the goddess, then Nandin and then his attendants. The text was first edited by Bha.t.taraaii and published under the title from Kathmandu in 1988. Adriaensen, Bakker and Isaacson, in an article entitled `Towards a Critical Edition of the Skandapuraa.na' (Indo-Iranian Journal 37, 1994, pp.325--31), argue convincingly that the text in question is the original Skandapuraa.na. The first volume of their edition is due to appear in the course of the year. I return once more to the evidence for the date of the Tirumantiram. Secondary literature is only as authoritative as the evidence it cites, and the evidence that you have presented so far consists in two references to the name (Maa-)Muular/Muulan. Does this seem to you to be conclusive? You may remember the second of the criteria I advanced for accepting that a Siddhaantatantra really be early: > 2) The existence of substantial attributed quotations by demonstrably > early authors that are still traceable in the extant work that bears > the same name. Perhaps what I mean by this is clearest from examples. An unspecified reference to the Skandapuraa.na might be to one of a wide range of texts (see the article to which I have referred). A reference to the Vi.s.nusa.mhitaa might be to the Paa~ncaraatra sa.mhitaa of that name, or to the treatise on Dharma"saastra. A reference to an Ii"saana"siva might be to any one of hundreds of "Saivaacaaryas who received that diik.saa-name. Yours, Dominic Goodall. From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Fri Apr 24 05:49:57 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 21:49:57 -0800 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037895.23782.8054314110889819217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: J Kingston Cowart > With respect to Dr. Fosse's suggestion that Christianity was initiated > in an act of human sacrifice, one might argue that a) this, too, was a > singular event impossible of repetition, b) that it was not a ritual, and > c) that from an internal theological/Christological perspective, it was > an act of God's sacrificing himself. > In the Bible there are many instances of God's commandment not to take any captives of certain enemies in battle. The Amalekites and Philistines, for example. How much different is this than the sacricifing of one's enemy captives? The only difference to me seems that one involves a formal ritual offering, while the other is obedience to a commandment. Both forms of slaughter have a religious context. The relevant passages from the Bible were also used by Christians during the Crusades and Inquistion. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Thu Apr 23 20:21:08 1998 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 22:21:08 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty In-Reply-To: <353E40E8.F11@sfo.com> Message-ID: <161227037869.23782.12773584761014577139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:11 PM 22/04/1998 -0700, Mary Storm gave a list of Biblical passages referring to "human sacrifice". They are all related to a very particular kind of human sacrifice: the victim is always the son or the daughter of the person offering the sacrifice (and the crucifixion fits exactly this pattern) May I suggest that offering one's own children to the divinity is quite different from the sacrifice of a stranger (an enemy) or of a criminal (a sinner). By slaughtering his (first-born) son, his most precious property, the father shows his respect to the divinity he tries to propitiate. The sacrifice of criminals, just like the "voluntary" death of the sinner may be a useful (necessary?) representation for getting rid of antisocial elements without entering into the cycle of private revenge: it is supposed to benefit the victim as well as the executioner. Conversely, it seems to me that death penalty never frightened nor dissuaded criminals, but is related to human sacrifice, and even in "modern" societies it is surrounded by ritualistic patterns. Manu (VIII.317) already tells us that "Men who, after having committed sins have been punished by kings go to heaven without being stained, just like good men having accomplished good actions"... See how rAma uses this zloka to justify the murder of vAlin, in Ram. 4.18. rAjabhir dhRta-daNDAs tu kRtvA pApAni mAnavAH / nirmalAH svargam Ayanti santaH sukRtino yathA // In the mRcchakaTika, act X, cArudatta declares, on his way to the execution ground : "By the prints of hand dipped in red sandal paste, impressed over all my limbs and covered over with rice-flour and sesamum powder, I, a man, am turned into an animal (about to be slaughtered)" [translation MR. Kale] sarvagAtreSu vinyastai rakta-candana-hastakaiH/ piSTa-cUrNAvakIrNaz ca puruSo 'haM pazu-kRtaH// J.F. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Apr 23 20:28:34 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 22:28:34 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037873.23782.17989056307244042012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >J. Kingston Cowart wrote: > >With respect to Dr. Fosse's suggestion that Christianity was initiated >in an act of human sacrifice, one might argue that a) this, too, was a >singular event impossible of repetition, b) that it was not a ritual, and >c) that from an internal theological/Christological perspective, it was >an act of God's sacrificing himself. This is of course perfectly true. I also pointed out that human sacrifice is strictly forbidden in Christianity. As for God sacrificing himself, I thought that it was rather a case of God sacrificing his only *son* (who of course is part of the Trinity). The interesting thing here, in my opinion, is not the finer Christological point, but rather the point that Gods wants, or even accepts, a sacrifice of this kind. In a sense, the sacrifice is symbolically continued in the communion, where the believers eat the flesh of the lord and drink his blood. (This is at least my interpretation, but theologians may not concur). And the communion, as we know, is a ritual. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Fri Apr 24 02:55:37 1998 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 04:55:37 +0200 Subject: The Great Tope of Manikyala Message-ID: <161227037888.23782.11834830979928742453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've not been keeping up with the literature on (buddhist) archaeology in Pakistan for the last fifteen years, but am still being haunted by an old question: What has become of the 'Great Tope' near the village of Manikyala, located to the south-east of Rawalpindi/Islamabad (33' 28", 75'15"), since it was "discovered" at the beginning of the last century? I think a remark of Debala Mitra (Buddhist Monuments, 1971) on the old finds in this stupa (coins of Kanishka and Huvishka), is the last information I have about it. A reasonable state of preservation of this stupa would be one the main reasons for an eventual trip to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I guess there may be more appropriate Lists or Groups for dropping my question. Most lists about Buddhisme however seem to be devoted more to spiritual matters than just old mounds of bricks. For any more recent information on this stupa, references to it, or suggestions for other platforms to put my question, I will be very grateful, Jaap Pranger --------- Reference: The "Great Tope" was opened first by General Ventura in 1838. The account of its exploration was first published by Wilson and afterwards by Prinsep. Elphinstone, Mountstuart, "An Account of the Kingdom of Caubul", London 1815, p. 78 (with illustrations) Wilson, Horace Hayman, "Ariana Antiqua; A descriptive Account of the Antiquities and Coins of Afghanistan, with a Memoir on the Buildings called Topes, by Charles Masson", London 1841 Prinsep, James, "On the Coins and Relics discovered by M. le Chevalier Ventura, General in the Service of Maharaja Runjeet Singh, in the Tope of Manikyala", JASBe, no.31, III, July 1834, pp. 313-320, pp. 556-62 Court, A., "Further Information on the Topes of Manikyala, being the translation of an Extract from a Manuscript Memoir on Ancient Taxila, by Mons. A. Court, Engineer Officer in the Army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh", JRAS, November 1834, pp. 556-576 PS As I have moved less than a year ago and books have not been unpacked, I could not check the page numbers in the references. From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Apr 24 07:00:30 1998 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 09:00:30 +0200 Subject: The Great Tope of Manikyala In-Reply-To: <199804240252.EAA11538@smtp1.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <161227037891.23782.14013637924029691129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isobel Shaw in _Pakistan Handbook_ (1989) reports that: "Manikalya Stupa is about two kilometers east of the main road halfway between Mandra and Riwat. You can see it from the main road, but it can easily be mistaken for a clump of banyan trees. A rough track leaves the Grand Trunk Road on a corner a little way south of the radio masts and crosses the railway to the stupa. "Manikalya Stupa is one of the largest in the area. The solid dome supported on a square platform is still intact, but there are no carvings or decorations left other than the simple pilasters ariound the drum, which were restored in 1891. "You can climb the stupa from a break in the stone facing on the east side and scramble to the grassy top for a good view over the plains below. The deep hole in the top of the stupa was dug by treasure hunters, who removed whatever relics and valuables it once held." With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt > I've not been keeping up with the literature on (buddhist) archaeology > in Pakistan for the last fifteen years, but am still being haunted > by an old question: > > What has become of the 'Great Tope' near the village of Manikyala, > located to the south-east of Rawalpindi/Islamabad (33' 28", 75'15"), > since it was "discovered" at the beginning of the last century? > > I think a remark of Debala Mitra (Buddhist Monuments, 1971) on > the old finds in this stupa (coins of Kanishka and Huvishka), is the > last information I have about it. > > A reasonable state of preservation of this stupa would be one the > main reasons for an eventual trip to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. > > I guess there may be more appropriate Lists or Groups for dropping > my question. Most lists about Buddhisme however seem to be devoted > more to spiritual matters than just old mounds of bricks. > > For any more recent information on this stupa, references to it, > or suggestions for other platforms to put my question, > I will be very grateful, > > Jaap Pranger > > > > > --------- > Reference: > > The "Great Tope" was opened first by General Ventura > in 1838. The account of its exploration was first published by > Wilson and afterwards by Prinsep. > > Elphinstone, Mountstuart, "An Account of the Kingdom of Caubul", > London 1815, p. 78 (with illustrations) > > Wilson, Horace Hayman, "Ariana Antiqua; A descriptive Account > of the Antiquities and Coins of Afghanistan, with a Memoir on the > Buildings called Topes, by Charles Masson", London 1841 > > Prinsep, James, "On the Coins and Relics discovered by M. le > Chevalier Ventura, General in the Service of Maharaja Runjeet Singh, > in the Tope of Manikyala", JASBe, no.31, III, July 1834, pp. 313-320, > pp. 556-62 > > Court, A., "Further Information on the Topes of Manikyala, being the > translation of an Extract from a Manuscript Memoir on Ancient Taxila, >by > Mons. A. Court, Engineer Officer in the Army of Maharaja Ranjit >Singh", > JRAS, November 1834, pp. 556-576 > > > PS > As I have moved less than a year ago and books > have not been unpacked, I could not check the > page numbers in the references. *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From thompson at JLC.NET Fri Apr 24 13:06:11 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 09:06:11 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037900.23782.4420438974389399381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the recent post of Jean Fezas: > >May I suggest that offering one's own children to the divinity is quite >different from the sacrifice of a stranger (an enemy) or of a criminal (a >sinner). By slaughtering his (first-born) son, his most precious property, the >father shows his respect to the divinity he tries to propitiate. One frequently encounters the comparison of the Abraham-Isaac narrative with the ZunaHzepa narrative [AB 7.13-18], since both involve the potential sacrifice of a son. But I think that the differences are *far* more interesting than the similarities. The Abraham-Isaac narrative illustrates JF's point quite well. But the Vedic narrative cannot be said to "show respect to the divinity", as Abraham does with his complete, unwavering submission to his god's command. First, there is much stalling on the part of Harizcandra, the father; there is the son Rohita's refusal to participate as victim; there is explicit contempt for the Brahmin AjIgarta Sauyavasi, who is so crassly willing to sell his son ZunaHzepa as a surrogate for the king's son Rohita; finally, the gathered Brahmins are clearly reluctant to perform the sordid deed themselves [and have to pay AjIgarta, again, to do tie up his son, and then to take up the knife].... On the whole a much more complicated, ambivalent, situation than the Biblical one. [snip] > >In the mRcchakaTika, act X, cArudatta declares, on his way to the execution >ground : "By the prints of hand dipped in red sandal paste, impressed over all >my limbs and covered over with rice-flour and sesamum powder, I, a man, am >turned into an animal (about to be slaughtered)" [translation MR. Kale] >sarvagAtreSu vinyastai rakta-candana-hastakaiH/ >piSTa-cUrNAvakIrNaz ca puruSo 'haM pazu-kRtaH// > > >J.F. Of course, in Vedic the human victim was the pazu par excellence, at the top of the canonical list [paJcapazu]. This list seems to me to be the key to understanding sacrificial "logic", which culminates in the glorification of self-sacrifice. I look forward to Wezler's article cited by Georg von Simson [for which many thanks] George Thompson From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Apr 24 07:21:37 1998 From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 09:21:37 +0200 Subject: The Great Tope of Manikyala Message-ID: <161227037893.23782.1351551235429554250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jaap Pranger schrieb: > What has become of the 'Great Tope' near the village of Manikyala, > located to the south-east of Rawalpindi/Islamabad (33' 28", 75'15"), > since it was "discovered" at the beginning of the last century?-- I did not visit it (yet), but it should be still there. The most recent photographs of it (at my hand) I found in: Ahmad Nabi Khan, Buddhist Art and Architecture in Pakistan, Islamabad n.d. (but after 1976), p.55 and in: The Exhibition of Gandhara Art of Pakistan, Tokyo 1984, p. 114. Regards, Martin Bemmann Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstrasse 4 Postfach 102769 D-69017 Heidelberg -- Germany phone: ++49-6221-543276 fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Apr 24 09:03:44 1998 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 11:03:44 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty In-Reply-To: <199804232018.WAA22277@aralia.wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <161227037896.23782.2070444806763992968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jean Fezas wrote (I give only a part of his message): >Manu (VIII.317) already tells us that "Men who, after having committed sins >have been punished by kings go to heaven without being stained, just like > good men having accomplished good actions"... See how rAma uses this > zloka to justify the murder of vAlin, in Ram. 4.18. >rAjabhir dhRta-daNDAs tu kRtvA pApAni mAnavAH / >nirmalAH svargam Ayanti santaH sukRtino yathA // > About this topic see now a major article written by Albrecht Wezler: "Der Tod als Mittel der Entsuehnung (gemaess dem DharmazAstra)", in: G. Oberhammer (ed.): Im Tod gewinnt der Mensch sein Selbst. Wien: Verlag der oesterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, 1995 (= Oest. Ak. d. Wiss., Phil.-hist. Kl., Sb. 624), p. 97-140. Regards, Georg v. Simson From bq8 at MAIL.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Apr 24 13:00:17 1998 From: bq8 at MAIL.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Dr. Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 13:00:17 +0000 Subject: The Great Tope of Manikyala In-Reply-To: <199804240252.EAA11538@smtp1.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <161227037898.23782.4644532854343701963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In 1987 (some 11 years ago) I visited the stupa at Manikyala and found it in a pretty good state of preservation. Of course I also took some photos which, if I manage to find them, I could make available to you. I think - if no serious deterioration has happened in the meantime - a visit is still rewarding. Regards, VTh At 04:55 24.04.98 +0200, you wrote: > I've not been keeping up with the literature on (buddhist) archaeology > in Pakistan for the last fifteen years, but am still being haunted > by an old question: > > What has become of the 'Great Tope' near the village of Manikyala, > located to the south-east of Rawalpindi/Islamabad (33' 28", 75'15"), > since it was "discovered" at the beginning of the last century? > > I think a remark of Debala Mitra (Buddhist Monuments, 1971) on > the old finds in this stupa (coins of Kanishka and Huvishka), is the > last information I have about it. > > A reasonable state of preservation of this stupa would be one the > main reasons for an eventual trip to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. > > I guess there may be more appropriate Lists or Groups for dropping > my question. Most lists about Buddhisme however seem to be devoted > more to spiritual matters than just old mounds of bricks. > > For any more recent information on this stupa, references to it, > or suggestions for other platforms to put my question, > I will be very grateful, > > Jaap Pranger > > > > > --------- > Reference: > > The "Great Tope" was opened first by General Ventura > in 1838. The account of its exploration was first published by > Wilson and afterwards by Prinsep. > > Elphinstone, Mountstuart, "An Account of the Kingdom of Caubul", > London 1815, p. 78 (with illustrations) > > Wilson, Horace Hayman, "Ariana Antiqua; A descriptive Account > of the Antiquities and Coins of Afghanistan, with a Memoir on the > Buildings called Topes, by Charles Masson", London 1841 > > Prinsep, James, "On the Coins and Relics discovered by M. le > Chevalier Ventura, General in the Service of Maharaja Runjeet Singh, > in the Tope of Manikyala", JASBe, no.31, III, July 1834, pp. 313-320, > pp. 556-62 > > Court, A., "Further Information on the Topes of Manikyala, being the > translation of an Extract from a Manuscript Memoir on Ancient Taxila, >by > Mons. A. Court, Engineer Officer in the Army of Maharaja Ranjit >Singh", > JRAS, November 1834, pp. 556-576 > > > PS > As I have moved less than a year ago and books > have not been unpacked, I could not check the > page numbers in the references. > > --------------------------------- Dr. Volker Thewalt LaserSatz Thewalt fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Apr 24 20:09:02 1998 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 13:09:02 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037906.23782.7049392079127235051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:49 PM 4/23/98 -800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >In the Bible there are many instances of God's commandment not to >take any captives of certain enemies in battle. The Amalekites and >Philistines, for example. How much different is this than the >sacricifing of one's enemy captives? The only difference to me >seems that one involves a formal ritual offering, while the other is >obedience to a commandment. Both forms of slaughter have a religious >context. And, let us not forget that the battle of the MahAbhArata is described in the text itself (5.139.29-44) as a massive (human) sacrifice. "Blood will be the oblation at this sacrifice:" havis tu rudhiraM...asmin yaj?e bhaviSyati (v.39). According to the mythological explanation of the story, the Earth needed to get rid of many kSatriyas in order to lighten her burden, so the gods incarnated for that purpose. It was all divinely ordained. In KRSNa's words (to Arjuna): Conquer your enemies... I have [already] killed them long ago. Be the mere instrument...! BhG 11.33. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Apr 24 03:10:37 1998 From: adrian.burton at ANU.EDU.AU (Adrian Burton) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 13:10:37 +1000 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037890.23782.3017308850132000327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I certainly wouldn't like to pour ghee onto the fire, but......... (and although this is certainly not a laughing matter), I wondered whether anyone had seen yesterday's report from Bhopal in the Navabharat Times entitled "Mother slits gut and drinks blood of her suckling baby". According to the article this is a case of severe mental illness and not at all related to any ritual sacrifice - although the poor baby did die. Adrian Burton (p.s. I'm certainly not trying to bash mother Bharat ; equally bad or worse things happen all over the world all the time. I'm just adding some topical news to our scholarly discussion of human sacrifice) From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Apr 24 20:27:54 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 14:27:54 -0600 Subject: Looking into the Future Message-ID: <161227037904.23782.7698204070744005286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An Inspired Look into the Future ---------------------------------- Didn't Shashi Tharoor write the Great Indian Novel, remaking the Mahabharata? Hearty welcome to Cervantes, Jr or R. K. Narayan, Jr. yet to be born who will write on what Indians did when they heard that after all, Aryans entered India from outside. Inspiration comes from an ancient Tamil poem - In the Chola country, many fields on the banks of the fertile Kaveri can be gifted; In the Pandyan kingdom, special pearls adorning the headress of Meenakshi can be donated; In the Chera courts, famed elephants with big tusks roaming the Western Ghats can be granted. Nowadays, all one can do is to promote the newly emeging book. Regards, N. Ganesan From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Apr 24 18:31:07 1998 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 14:31:07 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) In-Reply-To: <353FB54D.14C8@sfo.com> Message-ID: <161227037902.23782.4959435148879752532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been a passive lurker on this list but have observed this topic with great interest and to a great extent I agree with Mary Storm who said: > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 5:41 PM > > > practice was widespread in many of the world's traditions. The desire to > remain ignorant of human sacrifice within the lineage of one's own > tradition seems to be a common wish, almost as pervasive as the practice > itself has been. Plutarch, in looking back to the Persian Wars, was I have observed that many a writers who appear to be Christians from their names are very upset at Fosse's suggestion and have tried to extol Jesus' anecdotal sacrifice while having no such reservations when it comes to Hindu anecdotes. To me these people are no less chauvinistic than Dr. Jai Maharaj who errs on the side of Hindu traditions. I wish I did not have to make such ad hominem remarks but I am very disappointed at the so called Indologists who seem to carry a religious agenda with them on this academic list. It is unfortunate fact of history that most early Western Scholars studied Hindu texts only as a mission to put down the native cultures and religions and to evangelize their equally or rather more illogical beliefs. From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Fri Apr 24 20:02:40 1998 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 21:02:40 +0100 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037913.23782.9191707949120262818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op vrijdag, 24-apr-98 schreef Georg von Simson: GvS> Jean Fezas wrote (I give only a part of his message): GvS> >Manu (VIII.317) already tells us that "Men who, after having committed sins GvS> >have been punished by kings go to heaven without being stained, just like GvS> > good men having accomplished good actions"... See how rAma uses this GvS> > zloka to justify the murder of vAlin, in Ram. 4.18. GvS> >rAjabhir dhRta-daNDAs tu kRtvA pApAni mAnavAH / GvS> >nirmalAH svargam Ayanti santaH sukRtino yathA // GvS> > GvS> About this topic see now a major article written by Albrecht Wezler: "Der GvS> Tod als Mittel der Entsuehnung (gemaess dem DharmazAstra)", in: G. GvS> Oberhammer (ed.): Im Tod gewinnt der Mensch sein Selbst. Wien: Verlag der GvS> oesterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, 1995 (= Oest. Ak. d. Wiss., GvS> Phil.-hist. Kl., Sb. 624), p. 97-140. 1) A sacrificial ritual is much more 'civilised' than a sacrifice, because it's a symbolic act that doesn't require the actual signifiers, only the signifieds. In many tantric rituals human sacrifice is therefore performed by substitutes, e.g. most sadhus have to organise their own funeral and burn a puppet with their old name, buddhist monks offer their hair. 2) In a Catholic Mass Christ is ritually sacrificed again and again, it is a ritual reactualisation of the first sacrifice of God's own son that God appaerently needed in order to appease His Sense of Jusitice. 3) Wezler's point: the punishment as a cleansing ritual for the criminal and/or society could lead to another interesting point of view: the burning of witches and protestants in Western history (you don't have to read Gaston Bachelard's 'Psychoanalasis of Fire' to realise that fire is a powerfull ritual cleansing device), and I wonder if there's not a strong component of ritual sacrifice in the death penalty (is the electric chair not a modern equivalent of an altar for Yama?) regards erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at globalxs.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Apr 25 08:30:17 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 04:30:17 -0400 Subject: Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters Message-ID: <161227037908.23782.4257541162102410136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sometime ago, I mentioned that I shall present the inscriptional evidence regarding the potters? role in Indian culture. I think I have gathered strong evidence to buttress my theory that the Dravidian pre-Vedic potters gave rise to important princely and priestly families. I consider BhRgus to be among them and by association AGgirases also. Here is the additional material. The Larger Leiden Plates of Rajaraja I (Epigraphia Indica, vol. 22, 213-265) are very important for the understanding of South Indian history. The plates deal with the grants given by Rajaraja I (who ruled between late 10th and early 11th centuries AD) to a Buddhist vihara being built at Nagappattinam in Tamilnadu by the Sailendra king of Southeast Asia. The geneology given in the Sanskrit portion of the grant was considered important by historians while the actual details of the grant given in the Tamil portion were useful for social and economic historians. These plates along with the Anbil plates of Sundara Chola and the Tiruvalangadu Plates of Rajendra Chola I were useful for the dynastic history of the Cholas. But Anbil plates and especially Leiden plates are also important in preserving information which provide invaluable clues about the origins of South Asian culture. Many of the Royal officials (Accountants, Chief Secretaries and Generals) during Chola and Pandya times had the title "vELAn2". Till now, scholars have assumed that it referred to people of the "vELALar" or "veLLALar" caste who are supposed to be descendants of "vELir" (plural of "vEL") or chieftains mentioned in the Classical Tamil texts. (The Telugu velumas are called veLLALar in a tri-lingual Sanskrit-Telugu-Tamil inscription of 1257-58 AD in Nandaluru, Andhra Pradesh) These "vELir" are supposed to be descendants of the pre-Vedic tradition according to scholars like Iravatham Mahadevan. What no one has noticed till now is that in the inscriptions, when the caste affiliation is explicit, the accountants are almost always either people with title "vELAn2" or brahmins or "vETkOvan" or its equivalent "vELkOvan2". These were the persons who often executed the grant while it may be actually engraved by the "taccan2/sthapati" or smith/sculptor. (In the thousands of inscriptions I have checked, I have come across only one instance where a "taccan2" is mentioned as an accountant.) "veLkOvan2" is a potter. So what does it say about the identification of "vELAn2"? Today, the caste with the title "vELAr" are potters. What was the situation during the Chola/Pandya times? In a few cases, the title "vELAn2" occurs along with commonly understood caste names. Only two castes, "vELkOvan2" and "vELALan2/veLLALan2" carry the title "vELAn2" in inscriptions. For instance, in the Leiden Plates, we find the following text. "..aRavOlai ceytu kuTuttOm kshatriya zikhAmaNi vaLanATTup paTTaNak kURRattuc cAttamaGkalattu UrOm UrAr colla ezutin2En2 ivvUr vETkOvan2 etiran2 cAttan2An2a nAn2URRuvap peruGkOvELAn2En2". That even brahmin villages engaged the services of these potters as accountants is shown in the same plates when we find "..aRavOlai ceytu kuTuttOm kshatriya zikhAmaNi vaLanATTup paTTaNak kURRattu brahmadeyam poruvAnUr sabhaiyOm sabhaiAr colla ezutin2En2 ivvUrk karaNattAn2 vETkOvan2 mAtEvan2 Uran2En2..." Thus, the potters acted as royally-recognized officials affixing their signature to important royal charters and represented non-brahmin Ur as well as brahmin sabhas. Setting aside the term "peruGkOvELAn2" for a later discussion, we can cite another instance where "vETkOvan2" is identified with "vELAn2". This is found in an inscription of the 13th regnal year of the Pandyan king JaTavarman Zrivallabha of early 12th century (No. 233, South Indian Inscription volume 14) as "...ippaTikku nATTukkaNa[kku] tirukkOTTIyUr vETkOvan2 valaGkai nArAyaNa mUvEntavELAn2 ezuttu ivai maTTi UruTaiyAn2 vETkOvan2 [ni]RupacEkara mUvEntavELAn2 ezuttu....". An inscription of the time of Virarajendra Chola of 11th century (no. 339, SII vol. 4) mentions "muTicOzanal[lU]r veLLALan2 iTaiyURukizavan2 nAkan2 nArAyaNanAna rAjanArAyANa mUvEntavELAn2". These inscriptions seem to suggest that both vETkOvar (potters) and veLLALar (elite landowning castes) are descendants of "vELir". (For instance, the Sanskrit portion of the Leiden plates uses the name "muvEndavEL" for one official while the Tamil portion calls him "mUvEntavELAn2") This is indicated by one more evidence. During the Chola period, if any member of a profession is considered to be eminent in his, their status was signified by adding the adjective "perum" (big/high) in front of the name of the profession/caste. For instance an eminent goldsmith (taTTAn2) was called "peruntaTTAn2", eminent barber (nAvican2) was called "perunAvican2", eminent astrologer (kaNi) was called "peruGkaNi", and so on. But in the case of potters, when the honorific title was formed using the word "kucavan2", he was called "peruGkucavan2". For instance, an inscription of the time of uttama Chola in ciRupazuvUr (no. 238, SII vol. 19) mentions "pazuvUr vETkOvan2 pacuvati nakarattAn2An2a karuviTai peruGkucavan2". But when the honorific title is formed using the form "vELkOvan2", the two parts of the word (leaving the glide -v- and suffix -an2 aside) "vEL" and "kO" get switched. In other words, instead of getting "peruvETkOvan2", we get "peruGkOvELAn2" as exemplified by the Leiden plates. This seems to suggest that the potters "vETkOvar" are basically of "vEL" extraction. One of the earliest Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions is the word "vELAn2" found in a pot sherd found at Paramankiray in Sri Lanka. According to Iravatham Mahadevan, this is datable to third or second century BC. In his paper in the Journal of the Institute of Asian Studies, vol. XII, no.1, he said that this inscription proved the presence of the Tamil "vELir" (pl. of "vEL") in Sri Lanka at that early date. Recently, when I suggested to him that the word on the pot sherd could in fact mean "potter" and that "potters" and "chieftains" belonged to the same group, he said it is possible and mentioned the story of "sAlivAhana", the potter who defeated King Vikramaditya and in whose honor the Indian era is named. He also mentioned the pot symbol as the most prevalent Indus symbol. Coincidentally, the vELAr potters of Madurai also when asked about their geneology mentioned "sAlivAhana" as one of their ancestors. (More on vELars of Madurai and ancient potters using saws to making bangles in a later posting.) Now how does all this relate to bHRgus. According to Monier Williams, the word "bhRgu" is derived from "bhrAj"a root meaning "to shine". Regarding the Pali equivalent "bhaggava", the Pali-english Dictionary, citing the etymological meanings "shining, bright, radiant", wonders "How the meaning "potter" is connected with this meaning is still a problem.." The problem is solved when we consider "veLLAn2", a variant form of the word "vELAn2". This type of alteration is common in Dravidian. In fact, we find that even within the same inscription, both forms occur. If one views "veLLAn2" as being derived from the root "veL"(DED 4524 meaning white, pure, shining, bright), and translates it into Indo-European, one can very easily get "bhRgu". Consider the famous bhRgu "zukra". The Tamil equivalent is "veLLi". As I see it, the results have fundamental ramifications for South Asian cultural history. The ideas concerning Great Tradition and Little Tradition, as well as George Hart?s concept of Dravidian caste system, dangerous sacred powers, etc. all may have to be changed. Established notions of Aryan/Dravidian, Brahmin/non-Brahmin, veLLALa/kuyavar hierarchical differences may make it hard for some to accept this. Regarding the "vETkOvan2" who was one of the signatories of the Anbil Plates of Sundara Chola, T. A. Gopinatha Rao, the famous epigraphist who analyzed the plates, remarked, "The word vETkOvan2 means at present a potter. I do not believe it meant the same thing in early times; in many documents vELkOvan2s are signatories. Literally it means ?a prince of a feudatory dynasty? (vEL+kO+an2)." (Epigraphia Indica, vol. 15, p.72) Not only Tamil literature, but even inscriptions provide definite identification of vETkOvan with kuyavan2/kucavan2 (potter). It was unfortunate that Rao had let the social hierarchy of his times cloud his analysis. Regards S. Palaniappan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sat Apr 25 12:14:45 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 06:14:45 -0600 Subject: Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters Message-ID: <161227037909.23782.10525085077800374719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could the accountant caste (karNiigar) in Tamil have come into being from potters? This seems a possiblity because potters should have been the one of the first to write. All over south India, inscriptions on pot sherds are found in megalithic burials. CEnaavaraiyar, the medieval commentator on Tolkaappiyam has a nice story to tell on potters and accountants. Does this point to common origins? It is true that vELaan2 are the major signatories in Chola inscriptions. Are the Indus seals done by potters? In post-Vedic times, did these people with writing skills join priesthood?! Regards, N. Ganesan From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Apr 25 13:24:40 1998 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 09:24:40 -0400 Subject: event announcement: Sita Symposium Message-ID: <161227037911.23782.10264254097853523488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to forward the following event announcement to your listserv or newsgroup. Apologies for any cross-posting or duplication. For any further information, PLEASE CONTACT EVENT ORGANIZERS DIRECTLY (as below). Do not send such queries to me. Thank you. David Magier, SARAI ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Friends, We hope that many of you in the Tri-State area will join us for all or part of this Sita Symposium, and encourage your students to attend. For the rest of you, we tempt you with this marvelous program and hope to have the opportunity to share it with you in some form in a publication that will result from the symposium. The schedule of talks is slightly changed from that previously sent out and on our web-page and there may be a little bit more fine-tuning over the weekend, but otherwise the schedulely is pretty much settled. If you have read the description of the conference already, just skip beyond it to the section that lists sessions, speakers, and performances. Mary McGee Department of Religion Columbia University mm383 at columbia.edu SITA SYMPOSIUM Columbia University in the City of New York APRIL 30-MAY 2, 1998 Sita, the idealized woman and wife of Indian myth and imagination, has been upheld as a role model for many Hindu females who throughout history have been counseled to "Be Like Sita!" The stereotype of the Sita model came to be identified with the patient, the all-suffering, the ever- faithful, the ever-pure wife, and this stereotype has been perpetuated in religious tracts, literature, social conventions, politics, and scholarship. It is not surprising that this Sita stereotype has been increasingly criticized in the recent decades of women's empowerment and feminist scholarship, even as it continued to be promoted by various "traditionalist" voices. The name "Sita" evokes a range of responses. But for many women, Sita is neither a political figure nor an oppressive cultural stereotype but rather a familiar figure, whose strength and poignancy instill feelings of confidence, connection, and affection. There is no doubt that the Sita ideal has deeply influenced cultural expectations of womanhood in India, and that the dominant models have been oppressive of women. But it is simplistic to think that the oppression would be relieved by rejecting models such as Sita. To dismiss Sita is to dismiss the identity and imagination of a substantial proportion of the Hindu population, both male and female. Increasingly, efforts to recognize and celebrate the strengths of Sita suggest ways that oppressive images and attitudes towards women can be creatively transformed. These efforts arise from attentive listening to appreciate more fully how Sita exists in the lives of women and men. In this symposium we will reflect on the process of embracing, rejecting, and transforming role models, and in particular Sita. By drawing together a range of perspectives and presentations on Sita, we hope to gain a better understanding of the exhortation to "Be like Sita!" in several different historical, cultural, religious, and textual contexts, and to discern the power of this role model over time and across cultures. Opening Address and Reception 6:00 P.M. The Asia Society 725 Park Avenue (at 70th St.) SITA SUDHAAR VS. RAM SUDHAAR Reforming Sitas vs. Reforming Rams by Madhu Kishwar, Manushi $7.50 Asia Society Members $10.00 Non-members Friday, May 1st Dag Hammarskjold Faculty Lounge 6th Floor International Affairs Building Columbia University, 420 West 118th St. 9:30 a.m. Welcome & Introduction Mary McGee Morning Session: SITING SITA introduced & moderated by Laurie Patton 10:00 a.m. Women's Retellings of the Ramayana Nabaneeta Dev Sen 10:50 a.m. Break 11:00 a.m.-12:30 p.m. Re-siting Sita: Gender and Narrative in Valmiki's Sundarakanda Sally Sutherland Goldman Like Mother, Like Son: Sita and Hanuman Philip Lutgendorf 12:30 p.m. Lunch Break Afternoon Session IMAGES OF SITA IN ART, STORY, AND PERFORMANCE introduced and moderated by Susan Wadley 1:30 p.m. Film-maker Aparna Sen will speak on her work-in-progress a screen-play about Sita 2:00 The Iconography of Sita in Classical Indian Art Vishakha Desai 2:50 Break 3:00 Grinding Millet and Singing of Sita Usha Nilsson 3:30 Letters from Sita... Paula Richman 4:00-5:00 p.m. Stories of Sita Alamelu Iyengar Sunita Sunder Mukhi Nabaneeta Sen and others 5:00 p.m. break 5:15-6:15 p.m. Atschul Auditorium 4th Floor, International Affairs Building From SITA: LAMENT, FURY & A PLEA FOR PEACE the premiere of a new performance piece by Ananya Chatterjea Saturday, May 2nd Alice Stetton Lounge 6th Floor, International Affairs Building Morning Session 9:00 a.m.-12:30 p.m. THE POLITICS OF SITA introduced and moderated by John Stratton Hawley 9:00 a.m. Once Upon a Time...Sita Slew Ravana Tom Coburn Rejecting Sita: Indians Respond to the 'Ideal Man's" Cruel Treatment of his "Ideal Wife" Linda Hess The Arya Sita and the Power of Self-Sacrifice J.E. Llewellyn Relocating Ramarajya: Perspectives on Sita's Kitchen in Ayodhya Phyllis Herman 12:30 p.m. Lunch Break >From lunch please go directly to Low Library Rotunda for Sita in the City exhibit and gallery talk Afternoon Session TRANSNATIONAL SITAS introduced and moderated by Mary McGee 1:30 p.m. -- Low Library Rotunda Sita in the City: Images and Ideas of Sita in the New York Metropolitan Area A Gallery Talk Anne Murphy & Shana Sippy return to Alice Stetton Lounge 6th Floor, International Affairs Building 2:45 p.m. -- Alice Stetton Lounge, IAB Importing Sita: Immigrant Mothers and the Second Generation in the U.S. Anju Bhargava 3:15 Fidelity in Exile: Telling Sita's Story in the U.K. Jacqueline Hirst 4:15-5:30 p.m. Concluding Remarks & Discussion moderated by Mary McGee and Madhu Kishwar SITA IN THE CITY an exhibit of images and ideas of Sita in the Metropolitan New York Area curated by Anne Murphy and Shana Sippy Columbia University Low Library Rotunda April 16-May 4, 1998 9:00 a.m.-5:00 p.m. From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Sat Apr 25 18:04:33 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 10:04:33 -0800 Subject: Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters Message-ID: <161227037916.23782.9566423900383376558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Could the accountant caste (karNiigar) in Tamil have come into > being from potters? This seems a possiblity because potters should > have been the one of the first to write. All over south India, inscriptions > on pot sherds are found in megalithic burials. > > CEnaavaraiyar, the medieval commentator on Tolkaappiyam has a nice > story to tell on potters and accountants. Does this point to > common origins? It is true that vELaan2 are the major signatories > in Chola inscriptions. > > Are the Indus seals done by potters? In post-Vedic times, > did these people with writing skills join priesthood?! > Interesting work by Bruce Williams of the Oriental Institute suggests that most of the earliest evidence of writing in ancient Egypt was also found on pots and jars. Maybe pottery should be considered the first sign of "civilization." With the exception of the tool-maker, the potter seems to be one of the first craftspersons. Pottery seems also the oldest manufactured trade item, with the possible exception of beads. Most likely the trade of grain, one of the real signs of the development of urban life, involved pottery as shipping containers. And, of course, in many cultures, the first signs of writing are found on potsherds. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Apr 25 16:13:29 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 18:13:29 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037915.23782.15304115717061127310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > device), and I wonder if there's not a strong component of ritual sacrifice in the death penalty (is the electric chair not a modern equivalent of an altar for Yama?) Not really. The electric chair was introduced as a more "humane" way of executing a criminal. Apparently, being hanged or shot was perceived as being less comfortable than being electrocuted. Electrocution was also a part of emerging modernism. Now, the death syringe has been introduced, so that we don't have to get the unsavoury drama of hanging, shooting or electrocution. (An other triumf for modernism). People are done away with pretty much in the same way a vet does away with an old dog. You may regard the death penalty as such as a kind of sacrifice if you like, but it is first and foremost based on the idea that it will scare other people from doing the same kind of crime as the executed criminal (and then, of course, there is the revenge part!). The "terror component" of the death penalty should make us wary of facile comparisons between the death penalty and sacrifice. They belong to two different spheres of concepts. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sun Apr 26 00:32:58 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 18:32:58 -0600 Subject: Dancing "Siva (and Tirumuular) Message-ID: <161227037919.23782.14511973844430663058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *The following verse (from Umaa's impassioned defence of "Siva) is 5:78 *(in Naaraaya.namuurti's edition with the commentary of Vallabhadeva) *of Kaalidaasa's Kumaarasambhava:--- *tada"ngasa.mspar"sam avaapya kalpate dhruva.m citaabhasmarajo vi"suddhaye| *tathaa hi n.rttaabhinayakriyaacyutam vilipyate maulibhir ambaraukasaam|| 78|| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks for the reference. Is this in a kind of critical edition of kumaarasambhava. Will check into Hank Heifetz's translation which I have. *Chapter 162 (verses 26ff) of the Ur-Skandapuraa.na---which, according *to the revised opinion of the team of scholars now editing it, may *date from as early as the 6th century---describes "Siva's dancing, *imitated first by the goddess, then Nandin and then his attendants. *The text was first edited by Bha.t.taraaii and published under the *title from Kathmandu in 1988. *Adriaensen, Bakker and Isaacson, in an article entitled `Towards a *Critical Edition of the Skandapuraa.na' (Indo-Iranian Journal 37, *1994, pp.325--31), argue convincingly that the text in question is the *original Skandapuraa.na. The first volume of their edition is due to *appear in the course of the year. Thanks again. But Nataraja theme appears much more widely in Tamil from earlier times. Refer aaDavallaan by ca. taNTapaaNi tEcikar, late 1960s from Dharmapuram. From memory, I can tell Siva dancing and Nataraja specifically some times, appear in kaappu of kalittokai, some ancient poems mentioned by commentators on sangam texts from works now presumably lost, a good description of siva dancing comes in cAkkaik kuuttu portion of cilappatikaaram, tirumantiram, kAraikkaal ammai, appar, tirumangai aazvaar maTal, ... aananda taaNDavam of naTaraaja appears uniquely a Tamil conceiving. The cosmic dancer in a full circular praba of flames behind him. The philosophy of five acts of naTaraaja comes in tirumantiram, much later in Umapati Sivacharyar's veNpaas. Is skandapuraaNam done in the South? An interesting parallel exists on the dating of Tamil kantapuraaNam. There is a proverb saying that no puraaNam can excel kantapuraaNam in lies (myths)! voluminous. Its author was dated by people like Vaiyapuri Pillai in 17th century. There is a story about the "araGkERRam" - first reading before pundits of kantapuraaNam. In the very first prayer song, two words joined by sanskrit sandhi rules, rather than tamil sandhi. When the pundits protested, Murugan comes in defence of the usage. This story is referred to in few tiruppukazs. Arunagiri, author of tiruppukaz, is dated in 15th century. From other citations also, tamil kantapuraaNam is dated in 12th century. Many of Vaiyapuri Pillai's dates have been pushed back by centuries, by his own students, M. Arunachalam and M. Shanmugam Pillai (Tiru. Pillai, that great editor passed away just a few months ago). Mr. Vaiyapuri's dates in general, give the latest possible dates. Regarding Sri Vidya and some other stuff going from Tamil, let me tell a recent happening. After seeing Tecikar's aadavallaan, Sivaramamurti applied it to Sanskrit and wrote his Nataraja book. The aananda taaNdava naTaraaja with a round praba of fames in all the Western museums come from a single place, namely Tamil Nadu. Sivaramamurti, the great Sanskritist's book gives some naTaraajas all over India. They are just starting to dance, their legs slightly in motion - the chatura taaNDava or something like that. The Pala bronze of Siva on a nandi is beautiful. Compare the range, time depth of Chola masterpieces on naTaraaja. *I return once more to the evidence for the date of *the Tirumantiram. Secondary literature is only as authoritative as *the evidence it cites, and the evidence that you have presented so far *consists in two references to the name (Maa-)Muular/Muulan. Does this *seem to you to be conclusive? I agree 100%. More data is needed to fix the time of tirumuular. I have not seen the bulky volume of commentary from tamil pundits from Dharmapuram (1960s). In the foreword of that series, all the evidence will be dealt with. May be K. VellaivaaraaNaar's book on the history of the saiva canon. There is a heavy volume from TiruvaavaDuthurai mutt on Tirumantiram conference proceedings (1941?) I have to see all this in TN to really know the depths of the problems of dating of tirumuular. Can anyone tell me the earliest occurences of gaja samhAra mUrti in sanskrit, please? Regards, N. Ganesan You may remember the second of the criteria I advanced for accepting that a Siddhaantatantra really be early: > 2) The existence of substantial attributed quotations by demonstrably > early authors that are still traceable in the extant work that bears > the same name. Perhaps what I mean by this is clearest from examples. An unspecified reference to the Skandapuraa.na might be to one of a wide range of texts (see the article to which I have referred). A reference to the Vi.s.nusa.mhitaa might be to the Paa~ncaraatra sa.mhitaa of that name, or to the treatise on Dharma"saastra. A reference to an Ii"saana"siva might be to any one of hundreds of "Saivaacaaryas who received that diik.saa-name. Yours, Dominic Goodall. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sun Apr 26 00:51:38 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 18:51:38 -0600 Subject: Kalidasa Message-ID: <161227037921.23782.9707283729879096908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MeghadUta N. Ganesan wrote: *Can a member of Indology check whether Kalidasa uses *a theme/motif of "Gentle Breeze from Southern mountains *tormenting separated lovers"? May be in a Kalidasa *index. *Also, does this occur anywhere else other than *Giita Govindam? Dr. R. H. Koch wrote: +meghadUta Is this different from what is given below? If so, I am very interested to know. BTW, I found a very matching theme in kaavyadarsha. Many thanks, N. Ganesan Dr. S. McClintok wrote *Verse 47 of the Uttaramegha of the Meghaduuta reads as follows (apologies *for not supplying the Sanskrit -- I do not have access to it at the moment; *the translation is one that I did many years ago when studying Sanskrit *with Jim Benson). Although the verse does not indicate torment *specifically, it is set within the wider context of the torment of *separation (viraha). *"I embrace, o excellent one, the southern blowing Himaalayan breezes, which *split at once the pods of the shoots of the Devadaaru pine trees and are *redolent with their milky sap, thinking that they might well have touched *your body earlier." Meghaduuta 2.47 From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 26 03:00:33 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 20:00:33 -0700 Subject: Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters Message-ID: <161227037925.23782.9093099329635778539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I find Prof Palaniappan's theory very interesting. I have 2 questions about specific portions of his write up: S.Palaniappan: << Till now, scholars have assumed that it referred to people of the "vELALar" or "veLLALar" caste who are supposed to be descendants of "vELir" (plural of "vEL") or chieftains mentioned in the Classical Tamil texts. (The Telugu velumas are called veLLALar in a tri-lingual Sanskrit-Telugu-Tamil inscription of 1257-58 AD in >Nandaluru, Andhra Pradesh)>> In this context, I would like to know the status and the accepted etymology[sic?] of the telugu word "velama". Prof Palaniappan's write up suggests to me that this community is analogous to that of Tamil "veLLala". As I understand it, the veLLalas were primarily an agricultural community(I've seen this being mentioned by, amongst others , Indira Vishwanathan Peterson in regard to 8th-9th century Tamil Nadu and in different contexts of the naTarAja temple where the veLLala farmers were/are very prominent in carrying the image during processions.) While some veLLalas were certainly warriors, agriculture has certainly been the mainstay of this community well into the last century ; this can also be verified from any book on the history of 19th century zrilaGkA, where the veLLalAs have been prominent ATLEAST since the 17th century. On the other hand, the "velama" community seems to have been more of a martial race; many accounts written by velamas themselves explicitly refer to their prowess in the battle field.( Examples are the official histories of the erstwhile royal family of piThApuram who are velama, or a history of the guNTUru district which mentions the "deshmukhi" rights of the velama "maNikarAvu" family of the 16th century.) Prof Frykenberg mentions the origin of the word "velama" as:(not an exact quote): "There were a group of brigands who stole an earring( telugu "kamma") belonging to a royal family because of which they were chased by the retainers of the royal family. Some of the retainers returned before the earring could be retrieved because of the strenuous chase as a result of which they were called "velama" ( from telugu "venuka" literally back; to return) while the retainers who pursued the brigands and finally retrieved the earring came to be called "kamma"( as in the community by the same name). This story therefore posits martial origins for both the "velama" and the "kamma" communities. My question is : IS this theory( given by Dr Frykenberg) the standard/accepted derivation for the name of the "velama" community? If so, ( and in view of the fact that velamas think of themselves as warriors rather than agriculturists) wouldn't this contradict the theory of a relationship between the tamil veLLalAs and the telugu velama community? S.Palaniappan: << he said it is possible and mentioned the story of "sAlivAhana", the potter who defeated King Vikramaditya and in whose honor the Indian era is named.>> Could you please clarify as to which ZAlivahana is being refered to here? There was a boy who is supposed to have killed a king vikramAditya of ujjayinI; this story is mentioned (to the best of my knowledge) in connection with the "vEtalapamchavimshatikA". The other zAlivAhana is supposed to lived in vidarbhA and obtained his name from the fact that he rode on the branch of a "zAlI" tree, proclaiming it to be his "vAhana". This zAlivAhana had a minister by name guNADhya who is considered the probable author of the "br*hatkathA". He also did defeat a number of kings, one of whose name was probably vikramAditya.( which seems to have been a very common name in that period). I would therefore like to know as to which zAlivAhana is being refered to.... Looking forward to all sugesstions, clarifications and help. REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Sun Apr 26 01:12:19 1998 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 21:12:19 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037923.23782.14356638745662718850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may be (although I'm not sure) that some criminals actually DESERVE the death penalty as punishment for the awful crimes they have committed. In other words, the point may not be deterrence; and revenge and retribution are not (necessarily) identical. I agree, however, that this has nothing to do with human sacrifice in any religious context. -----Original Message----- From: Lars Martin Fosse To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 6:58 PM Subject: Re: human sacrifice and death penalty >Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > >> >device), and I wonder if there's not a strong component of ritual sacrifice >in the death penalty (is the electric chair not a modern equivalent of an >altar for Yama?) > >Not really. The electric chair was introduced as a more "humane" way of >executing a criminal. Apparently, being hanged or shot was perceived as >being less comfortable than being electrocuted. Electrocution was also a >part of emerging modernism. Now, the death syringe has been introduced, so >that we don't have to get the unsavoury drama of hanging, shooting or >electrocution. (An other triumf for modernism). People are done away with >pretty much in the same way a vet does away with an old dog. You may regard >the death penalty as such as a kind of sacrifice if you like, but it is >first and foremost based on the idea that it will scare other people from >doing the same kind of crime as the executed criminal (and then, of course, >there is the revenge part!). The "terror component" of the death penalty >should make us wary of facile comparisons between the death penalty and >sacrifice. They belong to two different spheres of concepts. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Apr 26 04:52:25 1998 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 00:52:25 -0400 Subject: Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters Message-ID: <161227037927.23782.12879946487738862683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 98-04-25 23:01:16 EDT, you write: << Prof Frykenberg mentions the origin of the word "velama" as:(not an exact quote): "There were a group of brigands who stole an earring( telugu "kamma") belonging to a royal family because of which they were chased by the retainers of the royal family. Some of the retainers returned before the earring could be retrieved because of the strenuous chase as a result of which they were called "velama" ( from telugu "venuka" literally back; to return) while the retainers who pursued the brigands and finally retrieved the earring came to be called "kamma"( as in the community by the same name). This story therefore posits martial origins for both the "velama" and the "kamma" communities. My question is : IS this theory( given by Dr Frykenberg) the standard/accepted derivation for the name of the "velama" community? If so, ( and in view of the fact that velamas think of themselves as warriors rather than agriculturists) wouldn't this contradict the theory of a relationship between the tamil veLLalAs and the telugu velama community?>> DEDR 5507 lists Ta. veLLALan2, vELALan2, veLLAzan2 man of the VELaLa caste; fem. veLLALacci, veLLAzacci; veLLANmai veLLAmai cultivation; vELANmai agriculture, husbandry.....Te. velama name of a caste, man of this caste; (DCV) agriculture; (Inscr.) vElANDu a cultivator; affix to the names of cultivator caste in Tamilnad. Cf. 5545 Ta. vEL. To me the velama-kamma story seems to be based on folk etymology. << Could you please clarify as to which ZAlivahana is being refered to here? There was a boy who is supposed to have killed a king vikramAditya of ujjayinI; this story is mentioned (to the best of my knowledge) in connection with the "vEtalapamchavimshatikA". The other zAlivAhana is supposed to lived in vidarbhA and obtained his name from the fact that he rode on the branch of a "zAlI" tree, proclaiming it to be his "vAhana". This zAlivAhana had a minister by name guNADhya who is considered the probable author of the "br*hatkathA". He also did defeat a number of kings, one of whose name was probably vikramAditya.( which seems to have been a very common name in that period). I would therefore like to know as to which zAlivAhana is being refered to.... >> The zalivahana story I remember is of a potter who makes clay soldiers, gives them life and sends them to battle King Vikramaditya. In fact, I have been trying to get more details of the story. I have to search for Iravatham Mahadevan's paper on the vELirs. The reference I have readily available in this regard is "History of South India, Vol. 1: Ancient Period" by P. N. Chopra, T. K. Ravindran, and N. Subramanian. They say, "The Sakas overthrew the king of Ujjain but a few years later Gardabhilla's son who was a refugee in the court of Pradishtana (i.e., of the Satavahanas) returned to Ujjain to avenge the defeat and murder of his father. He succeeded, drove out the Sakas, put himself in power in Ujjain and started an era in 57B.C. to commemorate these valorous deeds. He eventually became the famous Vikramaditya of Hindu legend. The legend is too hazy to make anything strictly historical of it. It is possible that Vikramaditya was really a Satavahana i.e., the son of Satavahana viceroy in Ujjain appointed to that office in the heyday of Andhra imperialism. This would account for the other legend which is a sequel to this and which speaks about the defeat of Vikramaditya by Salivahana, a potter from the western Deccan. The word Salivahana is suspiciously similar to Satavahana and perhaps the association with a potter was a sequel to the corruption of Satavahana into Salivahana. This Salivahana is said to have defeated Vikramaditya and an era seems to have been founded in A.D. 77, i.e., 134 years after the Vikrama era. The precise chronology of these events is not clear but surprisingly a Vikrama era of 57 B.C. and a Salivahana era of 77 are still popular and tenaciously remembered." p. 22-23 Western Deccan is called vELpulam in Tamil. I have read somewhere that the names Belur and Belgaum are related to "vEL". Unfortunately, I do not remember where I read it and I do not know how widely it is accepted. Regards S. Palaniappan From jai at FLEX.COM Sun Apr 26 16:13:17 1998 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 06:13:17 -1000 Subject: 'Oldest Dam' Found Message-ID: <161227037942.23782.14229416546931814021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 'Oldest Dam' Found April 25, 1998 The archaeological department has found the 5,000-year-old remains of one of the biggest man-made reservoirs, near Dholavira village in the border district of Kutch, Gujarat, recently. According to archaeological department Superintendent Y M Chittalwala, the discovery was a rare one which could unfold the mysteries of the pre-historic era and about the civilisations of that time. As the Dholavira village area had no known river around it, the dam seems to have served the requirements of the people there. Its 32 steps and a portion of the high wall indicates an advanced technology the local people had developed for preserving rain water, Chittalwala added. Dholavira is in the middle of the desert which had once fostered pre-historic and Mohanjodaro civilisations. Source - UNI quoted at http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/apr/25dam.htm Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Sun Apr 26 14:18:44 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 08:18:44 -0600 Subject: Leiden plates, other inscriptions, and potters Message-ID: <161227037936.23782.9052005332364862599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Carol Appadurai Breckenridge writes in A. T. Embree, Encyclopaedia of Asian history, Columbia univ. press, 1988 " Vellala: In South India, the name vellala is borne by cultivators whose fields are plowed usually by hired or socially bonded laborers. The Vellala myths of origin suggest that they are among the oldest Dravidian-speaking groups in Tamil nadu ..." A majority of Tamil Vellalas are still engaged in agriculture. They have prefixes depending on the region. There are toNTai maNDala veLLaaLar around Madras (Manali Mudaliyaar family that supported many doyens of music including muttusvAmi diikshitar, M. Bhaktavatsalam, CM of Madras, ...) tuLuva vELaaLar in Madras, S. Arcot, N. Arcot ..., Kongu VELaLar in Coimbatore, Salem, Saiva vELaaLar of Tirunelveli district, kAr kaattaar of Thanjaavuur, Jaffna VELaalar, ... The alliance between top section of vellalas and smartha brahmins was accomplished as a result of the bhakthi movement. Cholas strengthened it. Burton Stein has written extensively on this peasant-brahmin alliance to form the medieval peasant state. Two sayings in tamil: 1) No sambaar will be without brinjal; no village will be without a vellala. 2) There is no stalapuraaNam for Ayyanaar(Sasta); There is no caste puraaNam for a vellala. (Points to their ubiquity; Both are ever present) ************************************* Vijayanagar state and Nayak chiefdoms are martial ones, very different from the peasant state. The value and velocity of money, military techniques become much more important. The origin story of Kammas, presented by S. Krishna, points to the time of Vijayanagar to me. I have heard Kammas are the messangers of the royal court, who passed secret, short messages by making them into ear rings out of palm leaves. Prof. Frykenberg is writing on 19th and 20th centuries. So, the zamindari household myths collected in Colin Mackenzie collection in 1790-1810 AD should have been used. I think Velumas are the Telugu equivalent of Vellalas. PaalnaaTi viruLa katha from Gene Roghair and Brenda Beck's Annanmaar kathai (an oral epic on kong vellala heroes), are so similar in many aspects. What does Edgar Thurston say of Velumas? Does he draw similarities between Velumas and Vellalas? Inscriptions will tell a lot. When Kammas were in ascendance during the Nayak chiefdoms, Velumas opted to join with them. The story linking Kammas and Velamas should have been invented then. Are Belur and Belgaum related to vEL-uur and vEL-akam respectively? I think so. Regards, N. Ganesan From CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA Sun Apr 26 13:01:10 1998 From: CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (R P Hayes) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 09:01:10 -0400 Subject: Sanskritists in Australia Message-ID: <161227037933.23782.4594331977121694737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues, One of the students who has just completed my first-year Sanskrit course is planning to be in Australia next year in a relatively small town without a university. Although her plan is to take a year away from her studies in general, she does wish to continue working on her Sanskrit. She has been a strong student so far, and I am eager to see her continue. She asked me if I could help her locate a Sanskrit tutor in Australia with whom she could work through correspondence. So if you are an Australian Sanskritist or advanced student of the language and have an interest in helping a visiting Canadian for a year, please get in contact with me directly, and I shall forward the information to her. By the way, the text she learned from is Maurer's textbook, and we have progressed up through lesson 18. Richard Hayes rhayes at wilson.lan.mcgill.ca From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Sun Apr 26 07:56:11 1998 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 09:56:11 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty In-Reply-To: <199804251613.SAA08955@online.no> Message-ID: <161227037929.23782.3246587056944625640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:13 PM 25/04/1998 +0200, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >[...] >You may regard >the death penalty as such as a kind of sacrifice if you like, but it is >first and foremost based on the idea that it will scare other people from >doing the same kind of crime as the executed criminal (and then, of course, >there is the revenge part!). The "terror component" of the death penalty >should make us wary of facile comparisons between the death penalty and >sacrifice. They belong to two different spheres of concepts. Apart the fact that I wonder what "spheres of concepts" may mean, and as this list is supposed to discuss indological topics not personal prejudices, I'll let medhAtithi (around the 8th century ?) answer to Dr. Fosse. Commentary on Mn.8.318 : [Translation of Ganganatha Jha] : ... people may have the following idea : - "protection of the people is not possible without hurting (criminals), and protection serves the purpose of the king; how then can the corporeal punishment be held to serve the purpose of the person punished?" [...] why should protection of the people be not possible without the hurt (involved in the punishment)? If the hurt is inflicted with the idea that if the man were not punished, he would repeat the act, - this purpose could be served even by reprimanding and such other means. If the idea be that on seeing him punished others would desist from similar acts, - the suffering meant to be caused could be brought about even by fines. Then again, even though criminals are punished, thousands of men are found to do the same act again and again. >?From all this it follows that the corporeal punishment, while tending to 'protection' (of the people) has to be regarded as serving the purpose of purifying the person punished. It is for this reason that there are rules laid down regarding the cutting of limbs and other forms of corporeal punishment*. All these produces an invisible effect in the persons punished, and at the same time serves the purpose of the king (in the form of protection). As far as answers can only be given to arguments, I think that George Cronk, who wrote : >It may be (although I'm not sure) that some criminals actually DESERVE the >death penalty as punishment for the awful crimes they have committed. In >other words, the point may not be deterrence; and revenge and retribution >are not (necessarily) identical. I agree, however, that this has nothing to >do with human sacrifice in any religious context. ACTUALLY DESERVES no answer... Regards J.F. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 26 18:54:18 1998 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 11:54:18 -0700 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037947.23782.11798838823077586813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: .... >Spheres of concepts: Sacrifice deals with the relationship between humans >and the divine powers. It is based on certain ideas about how the cosmos works. > >Death penalty: Is related to social control. Society defines certain acts as >unacceptable and wants to put an end to them. The methods chosen are based >upon certain ideas about how humans function as individuals and social >beings, how their behaviour is regulated etc. Deterrence and revenge are >prominent motives for using the death penalty. This clear division between human-divine and human-society is a quite modern thing, not only in India but also elsewhere in the world. As an aside, it should be clear that the failure to bring about this distinction between "church" and state in modern Indian democracy is a key factor behind the contemporary Indian political ferment. In any case, the relationship between humans and divine powers is a very important consideration in traditional Indian constructions of society. .... >Indology is not a place to discuss matters of criminal law and penalty, but >for the record, let me add that I regard both the views expressed by people >who support the death penalty and the views of Medhatithi as simplistic. > Leaving aside modern arguments for and against the death penalty, medhAtithi operates in a world where the king and his court combine the legislative, executive and judiciary functions of government. Moreover, the king is the earthly representative of a divine power. Add to this the mImAmsA notion of apUrva, and how it brings about the fruit of ritual acts, and medhAtithi's views on the punishment of criminals don't seem simplistic after all. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Apr 26 10:32:35 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 12:32:35 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037931.23782.17057645190067987215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:56 26.04.98 +0200, you wrote: >At 06:13 PM 25/04/1998 +0200, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>[...] >>You may regard >>the death penalty as such as a kind of sacrifice if you like, but it is >>first and foremost based on the idea that it will scare other people from >>doing the same kind of crime as the executed criminal (and then, of course, >>there is the revenge part!). The "terror component" of the death penalty >>should make us wary of facile comparisons between the death penalty and >>sacrifice. They belong to two different spheres of concepts. > >Apart the fact that I wonder what "spheres of concepts" may mean, Spheres of concepts: Sacrifice deals with the relationship between humans and the divine powers. It is based on certain ideas about how the cosmos works. Death penalty: Is related to social control. Society defines certain acts as unacceptable and wants to put an end to them. The methods chosen are based upon certain ideas about how humans function as individuals and social beings, how their behaviour is regulated etc. Deterrence and revenge are prominent motives for using the death penalty. and as this >list is supposed to discuss indological topics not personal prejudices, I'll >let medhAtithi (around the 8th century ?) answer to Dr. Fosse. Pardon me? Which personal prejudices are you talking about? My remark was trigged by Mr. Hoogcarspel's suggestion that there might a kind of connection between sacrifice and the death penalty as practiced with the electric chair. I simply pointed out that this is not a meaningful comparison. Quoting Medhatithi's views are irrelevant here. In modern society, the rationalization for using the death penalty is deterrence, not sacrifice or purification. In the popular mind, there is no doubt a strong component of revenge (just see the reacions to one of the last much publicized executions in Texas). Personal prejudice has nothing to do with it, I am just referring to observable facts. Indology is not a place to discuss matters of criminal law and penalty, but for the record, let me add that I regard both the views expressed by people who support the death penalty and the views of Medhatithi as simplistic. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sun Apr 26 17:44:44 1998 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 12:44:44 -0500 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty In-Reply-To: <199804251613.SAA08955@online.no> Message-ID: <161227037944.23782.4869637248876593179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An interesting note of minutae on the following re. the Electric Chair. It was invented by none other than Edison, who was at the time engaged in a bitter dispute over Alternating Current (AC-- which we mostly now have) and Direct Current (DC). Edison favored the latter for safety reasons. It is true that a call for "humane" death devises was voiced in some form, but Edison answered another question by inventing the electric chair: He built it using AC to prove how horrendously deadly that form of electricity was. He lost the debate, of course, and the chair prevaled even to this embarrassingly barbaric day. As to the topic at hand re. sacrifice: perhaps the executions are not sacrifices as Lars notes. HOwever, it cannot be denied that they are infinitely ritualized--with all attendant praayazcitti rites of debatable efficacy--and certainly sanitized. Our "justice" system bears some reflection after watching the otherwise cult video "Faces of Death" which includes one of the LESS gory electrocutions. The guillotine was virtuous by comparison. jr On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Not really. The electric chair was introduced as a more "humane" way of > executing a criminal. Apparently, being hanged or shot was perceived as > being less comfortable than being electrocuted. Electrocution was also a > part of emerging modernism. From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Sun Apr 26 14:15:20 1998 From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 15:15:20 +0100 Subject: Gajaasura and Tirumuular In-Reply-To: <01IWAO8LE6KY001KNL@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227037938.23782.1414691297994876259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is from the disguised "Siva's invective against himself, in which he attempts to persuade Umaa of the impropriety of her marrying one so repulsive as himself (Kumaarasambhava 5:66): tvam eva taavat paricintaya svaya.m kadaacid ete yadi yogam arhata.h| vadhuuduguula.m ca saha.msalak.sa.na.m gajaajina.m "so.nitabinduvar.si ca|| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I referred to the edition of Naaraaya.namuurti (Wiesbaden 1980) because it gives the text as read by the earliest commentator, the Kashmirian Vallabhadeva. Mahaabhaarata 13.17:47 too, refers to the episode (and 13.17:49cd refers to "Siva's fondness for dance). The Ur-Skandapuraa.na I mentioned is unlikely to be southern. Apart from the circumstance that it survives exclusively in north-eastern MSS, almost no quotations from it have been found in southern works. I do not dispute that southern iconographies of "Siva's dances are southern. It is also possible that "Siva dancing makes his first appearance in southern sources; but you have not proved that this is the case. What is the evidence for dating Appar, Kaaraikaalammaiyaar, the Cilapatikkaaram, and the quotations in unnamed commentaries on Ca"nkam poetry you mention to before the 6th century? I have seen few accounts which review and weigh relevant evidence. One such, for the dating of Kaaraikaalammaiyaar, is Franc,ois Gros' Postface (esp. p.96ff) to the 1982 re-edition of Karavelane's (Pondicherry, Publications de l'Institut Franc,ais d'Indologie No.1). You refer me to secondary literature which you assume presents and weighs the relevant evidence; but does it? Just to substantiate my position that most hitherto suggested dates for Tirumuular are improbable, I present the following anomaly. The 5th of the 9 mantirams of the Tirumantiram deals principally with j~naana, yoga, kriyaa and caryaa, and we find represented there most of the views of these four that otherwise appear only in late South Indian Saiddhaantika works, e.g.:--- I. The view that samayadiik.saa, vi"se.sadiik.saa, nirvaa.nadiik.saa, and abhi.sekadiik.saa qualify initiands respectively for caryaa, kriyaa, yoga, and j~naana (verse 1450). II. The view that the four are paths known respectively as taacamaarkkam (=Skt daasamaarga), sa_rputtiramaarkkam (=Skt satputramaarga), cakamaarkkam (=Skt sahamaarga), and ca_nmaarkkam (=Skt sanmaarga) (verses 1477--1506). Now if the Tirumantiram were really written in the 6th-century, then we must accept that we have here in a *Tamil* work the first attestation of a nexus of ideas---with *Sanskrit* labels---that does not make its appearance in any other related Saiddhaantika literature until at least 6 centuries later and at the end of a development that we seem to be able to trace through Sanskrit sources that are later than the 6th century. Some of the labels occur much earlier, but their meanings are not the same: vi"se.sadiik.saa, e.g., is originally the initiation that is given to a saadhaka (bubhuk.su); nirvaa.nadiik.saa is that given to a putraka (mumuk.su); abhi.sekadiik.saa is that given to an aacaarya. I would be surprised if any plausible scenario could be outlined that might account for this anomaly and at the same time retain a sixth-century date for the composition of the Tirumantiram. To sum up: I think you rely too trustingly on the assertions of secondary literature. I repeat: *secondary literature is only as authoritative as the evidence it presents.* Those weary of my lengthy messages will be relieved to learn that the term here starts tomorrow and I am therefore not likely to be able to contribute further to this discussion for some while. Yours, Dominic Goodall. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Apr 26 15:55:52 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 20:55:52 +0500 Subject: human sacrifice (allusion to Abraham) Message-ID: <161227037940.23782.12261592372821892114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think that most of things written below are well-known to to most of the indologists. It is mainly written for the benifit of those who are not aware of these things. Hindus are a very very loosely bound set of people, consisting of groups belonging to various denominations whose practices range from extremely sublime to utterly repulsive and ghastly. Some of these denominations have practices which produce utter revulsion. This is perhaps the strength as well as the weakness of Hinduism. There is NO RPEAT NO central authority to control and regulate them. In the worship of god there are two paths called dakSinAcAra ( also known as samayAcAra) and vAmAcAra. These can be translated as dextrous and sinister and can be thought to roughly corrrespond to what westerners call white magic and black magic. This division is there in saiva, vaiSNava as well as SAkta denominations. The vAmAcAra practices are condemned by the dakSiNAcAra adhearents. vAmAcAra can be thought as the legacy of the primitive or tribal past. What I want to bring to your notice is that there is opposition to the vAmAcAra practices from the majority of the Hindus. vAmAcAra is considered as beyond the pale of vedic religion. Human sacrifice is a vAmAcAra practice. Blaming all Hindus for these practices will as meaningless as blaming all christians for the practices of Mormons. regards, sarma. From thompson at JLC.NET Mon Apr 27 01:55:56 1998 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 21:55:56 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty (mea culpa) Message-ID: <161227037953.23782.3451199802348209341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope that Jean Fezas and Lars Martin Fosse will not mind if a third voice surfaces in their dispute. It seems to me that the question whether or not the death penalty is sacrificial hinges on the question whether or not the victim of a death penalty can be said to be a surrogate victim. In my view, if the victim is, or is perceived as, a surrogate, then the murder is sacrificial. If it does not involve a surrogate victim, then the murder is something else again [and not sacrificial]. Perhaps we could all benefit from a careful discussion of the specific nature of sacrifice, and a discussion of the ways in which it differs from other forms of murder. This question is certainly Indological insofar as sacrificial logic thrives in traditional India. Or so it seems to me. Best wishes, George Thompson From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Sun Apr 26 21:03:50 1998 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 22:03:50 +0100 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty In-Reply-To: <199804261032.MAA21603@online.no> Message-ID: <161227037958.23782.11420085983898702031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op zondag, 26-apr-98 schreef Lars Martin Fosse: LMF> Indology is not a place to discuss matters of criminal law and penalty, but LMF> for the record, let me add that I regard both the views expressed by people LMF> who support the death penalty and the views of Medhatithi as simplistic. I hope the above is not the report of a contingent phenomena, but the outcome of reasoning, in other words: are there any arguments? Of course this list is not intended for a debate on legal or ethical issues, but it might not turn out to be unreasonable to ignore anthropological and sociological points of view. After all in order to understand Indian rituals, we have to know what a ritual is. Some scientists might want to think that modern western culture has marginalised all rituals, but maybe this is just because rituals are not called that way anymore and are hidden behind technical instruments and rationalisations. If we take this for granted, it doesn't help us understanding rituals very much. Apart from that sociologists like Weber, Durkheim and Bourdieu insist on the relation between religious concepts and social matters. Michel Foucault shows in his 'Discipline and Punishment' how the way we punish criminals is related to the way we conceive ourselves and our society. Just to say that it is and has always been a matter of retaliation or deterrence doesn't seem to be a substantiated conclusion. erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at globalxs.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Apr 26 20:07:57 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 22:07:57 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037949.23782.11941838828718827483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >As to the topic at hand re. sacrifice: perhaps the executions are not >sacrifices as Lars notes. HOwever, it cannot be denied that they are >infinitely ritualized--with all attendant praayazcitti rites of debatable >efficacy--and certainly sanitized. Our "justice" system bears some >reflection after watching the otherwise cult video "Faces of Death" which >includes one of the LESS gory electrocutions. The guillotine was virtuous >by comparison. Thanks for the remarks. However, I would like to emphasize that not every event with a fixed procedure is a ritual in the religious sense of the word. The killing of witches in the medieval period certainly had a ritualistic and purificatory character. The executions were conceived with this in mind. I think the modern mindset is different. We don't believe that the victim of an execution is purified, we only believe that he is being punished by being permanently removed, at that this has a deterrence effect. (Not everybody is absoutely convinced about this, by the way). Nor do we believe that God will stop sending us misfortune if we only do away with offensive humans. In a society where such beliefs are prevalent, the execution does indeed acquire some aspects of the sacrifice. The modern execution, as JRG points out, is sanitized, and it is getting more and more sanitized. The most recent idea is to use the condemned person as a "spare part bank": you strip him of usable organs before the remains are buried. Luckily, such a practice has not started yet, it has only been suggested. But it would be the final deritualisation of the execution. It would be reduced to a common act of slaughter, although in a hospital environment. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Sun Apr 26 20:11:50 1998 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 98 22:11:50 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty (mea culpa) In-Reply-To: <199804261032.MAA21603@online.no> Message-ID: <161227037951.23782.14016907052510997344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:56 26.04.98 +0200 Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Spheres of concepts: Sacrifice deals with the relationship between humans >and the divine powers. It is based on certain ideas about how the cosmos works. > >Death penalty: Is related to social control. Society defines certain acts as >unacceptable and wants to put an end to them. The methods chosen are based >upon certain ideas about how humans function as individuals and social >beings, how their behaviour is regulated etc. Deterrence and revenge are >prominent motives for using the death penalty. >>and as this >>list is supposed to? discuss indological topics not personal prejudices, I'll >>let medhAtithi (around the 8th century ?) answer to Dr. Fosse. > >Pardon me? Which personal prejudices are you talking about? My remark was >trigged by Mr. Hoogcarspel's suggestion that there might a kind of >connection between sacrifice and the death penalty as practiced with the >electric chair. I simply pointed out that this is not a meaningful >comparison. Quoting Medhatithi's views are irrelevant here. In modern >society, the rationalization for using the death penalty is deterrence, not >sacrifice or purification. In the popular mind, there is no doubt a strong >component of revenge (just see the reacions to one of the last much >publicized executions in Texas). Personal prejudice has nothing to do with >it, I am just referring to observable facts. >Indology is not a place to discuss matters of criminal law and penalty, but >for the record, let me add that I regard both the views expressed by people >who support the death penalty and the views of Medhatithi as simplistic. I beg the pardon of Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse, but A) I am perverse enough to think that "the relationship between humans and the divine powers" and "social control" are deeply correlated, and that the study of such correlations has some interest... B) I think that "observable facts" are "the facts that I observe", and that the way I interpret them may be influenced by personal prejudice. As Monseigneur Lamothe said to one of my friend, his student, who misinterpreted a point of buddhist doctrine, "Mon pauvre ami, vous serez toujours un chr?tien"... C) I tried to understand the position of dharmazAstra on death penalty, an effort I supposed connected not only with juridical anthropology, but also with indology. D) To this effect I cited medhAtithi, the oldest -- and most revered --complete commentary on Manu. I confess, I stupidely trusted G. B?hler, PV Kane, JDM Derrett and a few others, who described his work as "erudite", "full of interesting information". E) Worse, I even imagined that indology was a place to discuss matters of [hindu] criminal law and penalty. I should have known better... J.F. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Apr 27 08:02:43 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 10:02:43 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037955.23782.7383960477837793355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This clear division between human-divine and human-society is a quite >modern thing, not only in India but also elsewhere in the world. As an >aside, it should be clear that the failure to bring about this >distinction between "church" and state in modern Indian democracy is a >key factor behind the contemporary Indian political ferment. In any >case, the relationship between humans and divine powers is a very >important consideration in traditional Indian constructions of society. > True enough. However, if you read Kautilya's Arthashastra (which is my most important reference "idea bank" for ancient Indian politics) you get a very clear impression of punishment as a mechanism for social control. Religion is interestingly enough portrayd as a means of increasing this control and manipulating the populace (a function of religion that seems to be prevalent all over the world). As always, when we discuss opinions - today or in earlier times - the crucial question is: Says who? The ideas of people involved in the business of politics may have been different from the ideas expressed by the priest caste. But it is perfectly correct that spheres that we keep clearly apart today, were not kept apart in the same manner in ancient societies. > >>Indology is not a place to discuss matters of criminal law and penalty, >but >>for the record, let me add that I regard both the views expressed by >people >>who support the death penalty and the views of Medhatithi as >simplistic. >> > >Leaving aside modern arguments for and against the death penalty, >medhAtithi operates in a world where the king and his court combine the >legislative, executive and judiciary functions of government. Moreover, >the king is the earthly representative of a divine power. Add to this >the mImAmsA notion of apUrva, and how it brings about the fruit of >ritual acts, and medhAtithi's views on the punishment of criminals don't >seem simplistic after all. It depends on how you would analyse it. It was brought up in a "modern" context, as an answer to something Jean Fezas assumed that I was saying. In a modern context, Medhatithi's arguments are simplistic. However, I think that they are simplistic in his own context as well as a discussion of the "value" of punishment. Punishment in the Arthashastra is strictly functional - the typical punishment is a fine, which boosts the treasury of the king. If I remember correctly, I don't think Kautilya mentions purification of the criminal at all (but correct me if I am wrong). The argument may seem theologically sound to a philosopher or a priest, but their approaches are sometimes idiosyncratic, as we can see with theologians even today. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Apr 27 08:56:23 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 10:56:23 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty (mea culpa) Message-ID: <161227037956.23782.1306282615399130899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Indology is not a place to discuss matters of criminal law and penalty, but >>for the record, let me add that I regard both the views expressed by people >>who support the death penalty and the views of Medhatithi as simplistic. > >I beg the pardon of Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse, but >A) I am perverse enough to think that "the relationship between humans and >the divine powers" and "social control" are deeply correlated, and that the >study of such correlations has some interest... A fairly common perversion, I think. However, are you now discussing the relationship between humans and divine powers as they are conceived of today in the USA and Europe (the modern industrialised world), or this relationship as perceived in India, say, 1500-2000 years ago? >B) I think that "observable facts" are "the facts that I observe", and that >the way I interpret them may be influenced by personal prejudice. As >Monseigneur Lamothe said to one of my friend, his student, who >misinterpreted a >point of buddhist doctrine, "Mon pauvre ami, vous serez toujours un >chr?tien"... I suggest you spend more time watching the newscast on television, then you will see that it isn't only me... Discussions of the death penalty is part of the public debate, and popular views on who should be hanged (or whatever) are regularly expressed on American TV in connection with murder cases. Mon pauvre ami, you should join the rest of the world for a few moments. >C) I tried to understand the position of dharmazAstra on death penalty, an >effort I supposed connected not only with juridical anthropology, but also >with >indology. Correct. But the dharmashastra view is only one way of looking at things. For practical politics, I would rather look to the Arthashastra. There is a traditional error in Indology which treats the intellectual outpourings of Brahmins during the last 3000 years or so as representative of the whole population of India. That is not necessarily the case. I think that the Brahmin point of view has been "overrepresented" in many contexts, of course, primarily because they have left us most of our sources. That is why we should hang on the scraps of kshatriyavidya that we have as hard as we can. >D) To this effect I cited medhAtithi, the oldest -- and most revered >--complete >commentary on Manu. I confess, I stupidely trusted G. B?hler, PV Kane, JDM >Derrett and a few others, who described his work as "erudite", "full of >interesting information". All of this is true, of course. But have you never noticed that even erudite people can make the most idiotic mistakes? Silly statements from otherwise brilliant academics could fill volumes. The fact that something is written by M. does not mean that it makes good sense. >E) Worse, I even imagined that indology was a place to discuss matters of >[hindu] criminal law and penalty. I should have known better... True again. But not the discussion of the virtues of modern criminal law disconnected from hindu or Indic studies. This is an Indological list, not a crime and punishment list. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET Mon Apr 27 21:10:32 1998 From: kabalen at MAIL.JPS.NET (Paul K. Manansala) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 13:10:32 -0800 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037962.23782.15747113284873551194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Lars Martin Fosse What is > interesting about Medhatithi's comments upon punishment, is that the same > question about the usefulness of punishment is being asked today, and the > same simpleminded answer is given by some persons: Because some criminals > continue to commit crimes, punishment doesn't "help". Therefore, M. > rationalises punishment as purification. I haven't done much reading on this subject, but the death penalty certainly has some similarities to sacrifices of atonement. The Bible has an interesting story about the sacrifice of King Saul's sons by King David. Although the story doesn't involve the direct punishment of criminals, it is definitely an example of atonement. There was a long famine of three years in Israel, so King David, after inquiring of an oracle, found that King Saul's harsh treatment of the Gibeonites was the cause. When David asked how he could make atonement, the Gibeonites requested that David hang seven men of the sons of Saul "unto the Lord." David complied with the request, and it is stated that drought-breaking rain fell on the bodies of Saul's sons as they were heroically guarded by Saul's concubine Rizpah. Of course, many would see this only has a ploy by the king to get rid of possible threats to his power. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From neelisja at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Apr 28 00:55:27 1998 From: neelisja at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Neelis) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 17:55:27 -0700 Subject: The Great Tope of Manikyala In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980424130017.0073a260@popix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227037965.23782.13137930807658225929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Further references to the Manikyala stupa include: Elizabeth Errington and Joe Cribb with Maggie Claringbull (editors). Crossroads of Asia. Ancient India and Iran Trust, Cambridge: 1992. On pages 183-185 the reliquary and coins found in the Manikyala stupa are described, and on pages 222-3, a brass statue of a Buddha figure which may have come from Manikyala is depicted and analyzed. Sten Konow (ed.). Kharos.t.hii Insciptions with the exception of those of Ashoka. Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum II.1. Government Printing Office, Calcutta: 1929. A 12 line stone inscription dated in year 18 of Kanis.ka (no. LXXVI), the reliquary inscription of a Kapiza Ks.atrapa (no. LXXVII), and a silver disk inscription (no. LXXVIII) are edited on pgs. 145-151. Saifur Rahman Dar. "Excavation at Manikyala", Ancient Pakistan 7 (1970-71), 6-22. In this report on excavations undertaken in 1968 on a mound beside the main stupa at Manikyala, Dar describes the 6 sq. miles of ancient sites which are now occupied by the village of Manikyala, a cemetery, and fields. According to the accounts of Xuanzang and Faxian, the Vyaaghrii Jaataka was commemorated at this place with the construction of the huge stupa, which is still standing. During my visit to the site in 1996, the stupa (which is visible from the Grand Trunk Road between Rawalpindi and Mandra, and easily accessible) was still in good condition. In terms of sheer size, it is certainly one of the most impressive stupas which I saw in Pakistan. It is also possible to walk up to the top of the stupa and peer down into the large shaft where the reliquaries belonging to periods from the first to eighth centuries A.D. were found. I would definitely recommend a visit to Manikyala, Taxila, Swat, and the Peshawar and Lahore museums if you are interested in the archaeology of the Buddhist period in Pakistan. -Jason Neelis From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Mon Apr 27 23:04:52 1998 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 19:04:52 -0400 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037963.23782.2934112050068989918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry I intervened in the Fezas-Fosse debate about the death penalty and human sacrifice. I did not intend to "make an argument" for the death penalty, but only to suggest that, in addition to deterrence and social control issues, many would justify the DP on retributivist grounds. (I doubt that the DP can be justified on deterrence or social control grounds.) I do think that there is something to be said for the retributive theory of punishment. Is that approach so scantily supported in Indian thought as to be beneath contempt and to place retributivists in a category that DESERVES NO consideration? I wouldn't say that I DESERVE an answer from Fezas, but I would say that I do not deserve a slap. -----Original Message----- From: Jean Fezas To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 8:36 PM Subject: Re: human sacrifice and death penalty >At 06:13 PM 25/04/1998 +0200, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>[...] >>You may regard >>the death penalty as such as a kind of sacrifice if you like, but it is >>first and foremost based on the idea that it will scare other people from >>doing the same kind of crime as the executed criminal (and then, of course, >>there is the revenge part!). The "terror component" of the death penalty >>should make us wary of facile comparisons between the death penalty and >>sacrifice. They belong to two different spheres of concepts. > >Apart the fact that I wonder what "spheres of concepts" may mean, and as this >list is supposed to discuss indological topics not personal prejudices, I'll >let medhAtithi (around the 8th century ?) answer to Dr. Fosse. > >Commentary on Mn.8.318 : [Translation of Ganganatha Jha] : >... people may have the following idea : - "protection of the people is not >possible without hurting (criminals), and protection serves the purpose of the >king; how then can the corporeal punishment be held to serve the purpose of >the >person punished?" >[...] why should protection of the people be not possible without the hurt >(involved in the punishment)? If the hurt is inflicted with the idea that if >the man were not punished, he would repeat the act, - this purpose could be >served even by reprimanding and such other means. If the idea be that on >seeing >him punished others would desist from similar acts, - the suffering meant >to be >caused could be brought about even by fines. Then again, even though criminals >are punished, thousands of men are found to do the same act again and again. >From all this it follows that the corporeal punishment, while tending to >'protection' (of the people) has to be regarded as serving the purpose of >purifying the person punished. It is for this reason that there are rules laid >down regarding the cutting of limbs and other forms of corporeal punishment*. >All these produces an invisible effect in the persons punished, and at the >same >time serves the purpose of the king (in the form of protection). > > >As far as answers can only be given to arguments, I think that George Cronk, >who wrote : > >>It may be (although I'm not sure) that some criminals actually DESERVE the >>death penalty as punishment for the awful crimes they have committed. In >>other words, the point may not be deterrence; and revenge and retribution >>are not (necessarily) identical. I agree, however, that this has nothing to >>do with human sacrifice in any religious context. > >ACTUALLY DESERVES no answer... > >Regards >J.F. From alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL Mon Apr 27 18:31:50 1998 From: alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL (a.a. slaczka) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 20:31:50 +0200 Subject: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2 Message-ID: <161227039676.23782.6244387964007999303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In mijn woordenboek staat dat kwartel een vogel is!!!! En nu? M. ---------- > Van: Vidhyanath Rao > Aan: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Onderwerp: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2 > Datum: vrijdag 5 juni 1998 22:18 > > Michael Witzel wrote: > > >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > >> I thought that I had made it clear that I believe the true chariot to > >> have been diffused from the Near East, not India. This has nothing to > >> do with the spread of IE languages. > > >But the very word for "horse", horse driving, horse mythology, horse > >rituals go *together* in IE cultures.... Diffusion from a post-common IE > >center does not work here. > > Word for horse does not prove chariots. > > I guess I am totally ignorant. What PIE words are unquestionably > connected to chariotry? [Let us concentrate on chariots in this > thread.] > > >> Anyway, are you arguing that chariots had been invented before I-Irs > >> and proto-Greeks separated? > > >We cannot know perfectly. [...] However, this is nothing unusual. We > >cannot, I think, reconstruct the IE small finger. That does not mean > >that IEs had only 4 fingers... (and, I think, there is a Proto-Drav. > >peacock feather, but .... no peacock) > > The situations are different. We have independent evidence that humans > had a little finger before PIE evolved. But there is no evidence that > true chariots existed before 1800 BCE. > > >But, unfortunately, we have Homer's "Indian style" description of the > >race. If you then invoke the Hittites as transmitters, we are stuck with > >Kikkuli, the *Indo-Aryan*-inspired Mitanni. > > A minor point: Kikkuli was a Hurrian, as were the young men recruited > into the mariannu (and according to Diakonoff, that word has a > satifactory Near Eastern etymology. > > Anyway, there are books on Nyaya in one of our libraries. Bulk of the > books on formal logic are in a different library. If a visitor from > Alpha Centauri were to look only at the first and concluded that Frege > et. al were inspired by Indians, would it be correct? > > The point is that we have fragments of other texts on horses and > chariots from the Hittite archives. Chariots are mentioned in >military > context<, used by both Hittites and Hurrians, during the >Old Hittite > period<, almost 300 years before Kikkuli. > > And what is the evidence for claiming that Mitannis' methods were > better? Bear in mind that the Hittite archives contained other texts on > horse training. Just because, by chance, one text has come complete > while others have not, we cannot conclude that the former is better. > > >> >the uneven number of turns > >> >with the Mitanni, the COUNTER-clockwise turning .... : all by > >> >diffusion? > > >> The odd number of turns is a consequence of the race, which consists of > >> returning to the starting point after reaching a preset mark. If you > >> run n laps, you must make 2n+1 turns. > > I am sorry for yet another fence-post error. If there are n circuits, > there would be 2n-1 turns. > > >The turn (vartana) is around the pole at the end of the track. [...] > >Yes, but there also is 1 turn only: Thus, 1 turn: up to the post and back; > >2 turns = 2x the same; 3 turns = 3x etc. Only the turn around the post at > >the "end" of the track is counted. But only *odd* numbers are used. Why? > > I did not know that only the turn at the end was counted. I will > appreciate textual citations that prove this (for each culture > involved). > > >> But bits were completely unknown in India, according to Arrian and > >> others. Why was it so, if there were two different traditions? > > >Arrian? Where? In the quoted passage, he onlys says that they have a > >management different from the Greek + Celtic one. (Indike 16). > > You are right. I should have said that bits were not in use in India > and that the statements of Arrian and others supports this. Also, > archaeological evidence supports the conclusions that bits were > introduced into India only in historical times. See Leshnik AJA 1971 > pp. 141--150 as well as Sparreboom, Chariots in the Veda, p. 115-117. > > So the question remains:If there was a continuity of domesticated horses > from bit using people to early historical India, why was there a change > from bits to nose bands when the latter are inferior due to constriction > of air passages? > > -------------- > > > >(if imported from the Near East you would use the Near Eastern > >term,like gilgul 'wheel': see below). > > Not always. People use loan translations too. > > >Unfortunately she is not an Indo-Europeanist but a well known Russian > >archaeologist, and, AT THAT, horse woman herself. Not an ivory tower > >woman. (Neither do I belong to that tower myself, nor Sparreboom who has > >driven chariots a lot, *before* and after his thesis). > > What matters is experience with reconstructed harness + vehicles. > I have written to Sparreboom concerning this, among other questions > about chariot construction and use that come from what he says in his > book. It would be proper for me wait for his reply before discussing > them here. > > Modern harnessing is far removed from ancient practices. Even minor > changes can make adjustment tricky. There were a lot of experienced > drivers who were tripped by rear mounted engines which affect the > handling characteristics. And few of them are able to explain the > physics behind it. > > That is why, till I see description of experiments with reconstructed > harnesses, bridling and vehicles that contradict them, I will continue > to accept the conclusions of Spruytte. No such experiments are described > by Sparreboom or Kuzmina. So I see no reason to change my conclusions. > > >Simply, because the Hittites *imported* a Mitanni man, Kikkuli, to teach > >them [better methods]. > > A minor point: Kikkuli was a Hurrian (and the maryannu were recruited > from among Hurrians). > > Anyway, this text was found in an archive, where fragments of other > texts dealing with horses and chariots were found. All of us buy books > for our collections when we already know what is in those books. Finding > this one book does not imply that Hittites imported Kikkuli to >teach< > them. > > >One does not import and employ people whom one does not need. > > But one does buy books one does not really need. And as a glance > around any US university or software company will show, people > can be imported for reasons other than total lack of knolwedge/ > inferior technology in the importing country. > > > > -Nath From alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL Mon Apr 27 18:48:54 1998 From: alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL (a.a. slaczka) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 20:48:54 +0200 Subject: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2 Message-ID: <161227039678.23782.12657660911582659151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My previous message was NOT meant for the Indology list, so just don't pay attention to it. Sorry for the confusion!!! A.Slaczka. ---------- > Van: a.a. slaczka > Aan: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Onderwerp: Re: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2 > Datum: maandag 27 april 1998 20:31 > > In mijn woordenboek staat dat kwartel een vogel is!!!! > En nu? > M. > > ---------- > > Van: Vidhyanath Rao > > Aan: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Onderwerp: Chariots (was horse argument) 2/2 > > Datum: vrijdag 5 juni 1998 22:18 > > > > Michael Witzel wrote: > > > > >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > > > >> I thought that I had made it clear that I believe the true chariot to > > >> have been diffused from the Near East, not India. This has nothing to > > >> do with the spread of IE languages. > > > > >But the very word for "horse", horse driving, horse mythology, horse > > >rituals go *together* in IE cultures.... Diffusion from a post-common IE > > >center does not work here. > > > > Word for horse does not prove chariots. > > > > I guess I am totally ignorant. What PIE words are unquestionably > > connected to chariotry? [Let us concentrate on chariots in this > > thread.] > > > > >> Anyway, are you arguing that chariots had been invented before I-Irs > > >> and proto-Greeks separated? > > > > >We cannot know perfectly. [...] However, this is nothing unusual. We > > >cannot, I think, reconstruct the IE small finger. That does not mean > > >that IEs had only 4 fingers... (and, I think, there is a Proto-Drav. > > >peacock feather, but .... no peacock) > > > > The situations are different. We have independent evidence that humans > > had a little finger before PIE evolved. But there is no evidence that > > true chariots existed before 1800 BCE. > > > > >But, unfortunately, we have Homer's "Indian style" description of the > > >race. If you then invoke the Hittites as transmitters, we are stuck with > > >Kikkuli, the *Indo-Aryan*-inspired Mitanni. > > > > A minor point: Kikkuli was a Hurrian, as were the young men recruited > > into the mariannu (and according to Diakonoff, that word has a > > satifactory Near Eastern etymology. > > > > Anyway, there are books on Nyaya in one of our libraries. Bulk of the > > books on formal logic are in a different library. If a visitor from > > Alpha Centauri were to look only at the first and concluded that Frege > > et. al were inspired by Indians, would it be correct? > > > > The point is that we have fragments of other texts on horses and > > chariots from the Hittite archives. Chariots are mentioned in >military > > context<, used by both Hittites and Hurrians, during the >Old Hittite > > period<, almost 300 years before Kikkuli. > > > > And what is the evidence for claiming that Mitannis' methods were > > better? Bear in mind that the Hittite archives contained other texts on > > horse training. Just because, by chance, one text has come complete > > while others have not, we cannot conclude that the former is better. > > > > >> >the uneven number of turns > > >> >with the Mitanni, the COUNTER-clockwise turning .... : all by > > >> >diffusion? > > > > >> The odd number of turns is a consequence of the race, which consists > of > > >> returning to the starting point after reaching a preset mark. If you > > >> run n laps, you must make 2n+1 turns. > > > > I am sorry for yet another fence-post error. If there are n circuits, > > there would be 2n-1 turns. > > > > >The turn (vartana) is around the pole at the end of the track. [...] > > >Yes, but there also is 1 turn only: Thus, 1 turn: up to the post and > back; > > >2 turns = 2x the same; 3 turns = 3x etc. Only the turn around the post > at > > >the "end" of the track is counted. But only *odd* numbers are used. Why? > > > > I did not know that only the turn at the end was counted. I will > > appreciate textual citations that prove this (for each culture > > involved). > > > > >> But bits were completely unknown in India, according to Arrian and > > >> others. Why was it so, if there were two different traditions? > > > > >Arrian? Where? In the quoted passage, he onlys says that they have a > > >management different from the Greek + Celtic one. (Indike 16). > > > > You are right. I should have said that bits were not in use in India > > and that the statements of Arrian and others supports this. Also, > > archaeological evidence supports the conclusions that bits were > > introduced into India only in historical times. See Leshnik AJA 1971 > > pp. 141--150 as well as Sparreboom, Chariots in the Veda, p. 115-117. > > > > So the question remains:If there was a continuity of domesticated horses > > from bit using people to early historical India, why was there a change > > from bits to nose bands when the latter are inferior due to constriction > > of air passages? > > > > -------------- > > > > > > >(if imported from the Near East you would use the Near Eastern > > >term,like gilgul 'wheel': see below). > > > > Not always. People use loan translations too. > > > > >Unfortunately she is not an Indo-Europeanist but a well known Russian > > >archaeologist, and, AT THAT, horse woman herself. Not an ivory tower > > >woman. (Neither do I belong to that tower myself, nor Sparreboom who has > > >driven chariots a lot, *before* and after his thesis). > > > > What matters is experience with reconstructed harness + vehicles. > > I have written to Sparreboom concerning this, among other questions > > about chariot construction and use that come from what he says in his > > book. It would be proper for me wait for his reply before discussing > > them here. > > > > Modern harnessing is far removed from ancient practices. Even minor > > changes can make adjustment tricky. There were a lot of experienced > > drivers who were tripped by rear mounted engines which affect the > > handling characteristics. And few of them are able to explain the > > physics behind it. > > > > That is why, till I see description of experiments with reconstructed > > harnesses, bridling and vehicles that contradict them, I will continue > > to accept the conclusions of Spruytte. No such experiments are described > > by Sparreboom or Kuzmina. So I see no reason to change my conclusions. > > > > >Simply, because the Hittites *imported* a Mitanni man, Kikkuli, to teach > > >them [better methods]. > > > > A minor point: Kikkuli was a Hurrian (and the maryannu were recruited > > from among Hurrians). > > > > Anyway, this text was found in an archive, where fragments of other > > texts dealing with horses and chariots were found. All of us buy books > > for our collections when we already know what is in those books. Finding > > this one book does not imply that Hittites imported Kikkuli to >teach< > > them. > > > > >One does not import and employ people whom one does not need. > > > > But one does buy books one does not really need. And as a glance > > around any US university or software company will show, people > > can be imported for reasons other than total lack of knolwedge/ > > inferior technology in the importing country. > > > > > > > > -Nath From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Apr 27 19:12:02 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 21:12:02 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037960.23782.11137861343954954962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I hope the above is not the report of a contingent phenomena, but the outcome of reasoning, in other words: are there any arguments? >Of course this list is not intended for a debate on legal or ethical issues, but it might not turn out to be unreasonable to ignore anthropological and sociological points of view. After all in order to understand Indian rituals, we have to know what a ritual is. > My angle in this matter is, as already stated, the angle of Dandaniti. That is, ancient India knew a highly sophisticated political theory where the role of the king was seen as determined by his function as "stick-carrier". I believe the Arthashastra says it in this manner: "If the king didn't continually punish criminals, the strong would rost the weak like fish on spit". Or something to that effect. In other words, Indic political theory was about the use of power for various purposes, not about ritual. That does not mean that ritual did not have a role to play - we all know that it did. The Arthashastra has a curiously rationalistic character. Some years ago, I gave a talk on the A. to a group of people, among them a former vice-minister of the ministry of defence. I gave a break-down of the essential features of Kautilya's theory on how to run a state and how to run a foreign policy, and after the talk the former vice-minister came over to me and said: "You know, it is still pretty much in the same way. Your Kautilya is surprisingly modern". In other words, a modern politician could relate immediately to Kautilya's way of thinking. I think this is precisely because the Arthashastra is stripped of ritualistic thinking. What is interesting about Medhatithi's comments upon punishment, is that the same question about the usefulness of punishment is being asked today, and the same simpleminded answer is given by some persons: Because some criminals continue to commit crimes, punishment doesn't "help". Therefore, M. rationalises punishment as purification. But both he and his modern brethren in the spirit forget that most rational people evaluate both possible punishment and reward when they decide on what to do in many situations. This is evident today when there is police strike, and otherwise law-abiding citizens start plundering department stores. And reading the A., you get a clear impression that India's policy makers saw human behaviour very much as something ruled by expectations of reward or punishment. Indeed, I think that what the Arthashastra offers us is an early form of rational choice theory. My point is: In spite of the overwhelming amount of ritual speculation that India has produced, we should not jump to the conclusion that the men who ran an ancient Indian state and an ancient Indian judiciary were completely dominated by ritualistic thinking. To the contrary, their way of thinking may in some respects have been much closer to the modern mindset than we think. >Some scientists might want to think that modern western culture has marginalised all rituals, but maybe this is just because rituals are not called that way anymore and are hidden behind technical instruments and rationalisations. If we take this for granted, it doesn't help us understanding rituals very much. Apart from that sociologists like Weber, Durkheim and Bourdieu insist on the relation between religious concepts and social matters. Michel Foucault shows in his 'Discipline and Punishment' how the way we punish criminals is related to the way we conceive ourselves and our society. Just to say that it is and has always been a matter of retaliation or deterrence doesn't seem to be a substantiated conclusion. > I would certainly not deny that there is a connection between religious concepts and social matters. This is obviously correct. But if we look for motivating psychological forces in the modern world, religion gets strong competition from political ideologies, not to mention that various kinds of intellectuals such as sociologists, political scientists etc. furnish the modern statesman or politician with a great deal of his intellectual tools. Modern ideas about man and society are only marginally formulated by religion, at least compared to antiquity. My suggestion is that even in former times there were rationalists who did not take religion very seriously (unless as a way to manipulate people), in fact, the Arthashastra tells us that India had its share of them, the men that regarded the Vedas as a cloak for sophisticated "men of the world" to hide behind. This means that ideas about punishment, crime etc. cannot simply be seen through the eyes of the historian of religion or the anthropologist, they also have to be analysed as tools for social and political control. That is why it does not make sense to read dharma-shastra without reading arthashastra at the same time. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Apr 28 12:06:55 1998 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 08:06:55 -0400 Subject: Summer Skt at Harvard (update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227037974.23782.7835017890887593689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those interested in 1st year Sasnkrit, I attach an update of last year's announcement. This course has been taught since 1988. M. Witzel > ======================================================================= > > > > > SUMMER SANSKRIT at HARVARD. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit > > (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. > > June 22 - August 14; exam period Aug. 11-14 > > Instructor: Michael Witzel > > > > This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will > > enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress > > will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and > > essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct > > translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. > > > > > > Fees: Application fee (nonrefundable $35) > > > > Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 3,160 > > > > Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American > > carrier) > > > > On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: > > $ 2,640 > > (Housing deposit $ 580) > > > > Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) > > through June 3. > > > > Late registration June 4 - June 21 ($50 late fee). > > > > Catalogues/Information > > from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA > > 02138, USA > > phone 617- 495 4024 > > > > > > On-line catalogue: > > ================= > > http://summer.dce.harvard.edu > > http://www.harvard.edu/summer > > > > gopher.harvard.edu > > > > Telnet: vine.harvard.edu (at the login type: courses and RETURN) > > > > via modem: 617 496 8500, > > choose option 4 (vine): > > select Harv.Univ. course catalogs > > then elect Summer school for catalogue and all other info. > > > > For assistance call 617 496 2001 (Monday-Friday 9am-5pm) > > > ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Apr 28 14:40:35 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 08:40:35 -0600 Subject: paaNTaraGkam dance Message-ID: <161227037976.23782.11070215755264084333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I vaguely remember Prof. Jean Filliozat has a paper on "Siva's dance called paaNTaraGkam or paNTaraGkam from Tamil literature, Sanskrit, South East Asia etc., I need the reference. Thanks, N. Ganesan From thillaud at UNICE.FR Tue Apr 28 07:10:53 1998 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 09:10:53 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty In-Reply-To: <0faf84312011a48UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <161227037979.23782.6214153551635213411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, There are obviously strong rapports between "sacrifice" and "death penalty". From a sociological point of view, it's not always easy to make a clear difference between what is religious and what is seculary. And, if we search to caracterize the sacrifice in such a manner it match with all the actual sacrifices, we find few simple features, all matching with the death penalty: 1) the S is a behaviour specific to a society (or a sub-society). 2) the S is performed with the agreement of the "common decisions" structure of the group. 3) the S is supposed to be profitable to the whole group. 4) the S has a constant form, repeated each time it occurs. 5) the occurrence of the S is determined by an external fact (date, social event) and the S must be performed each time this fact occurs. 6) the S must be performed by authorized actors, well-defined for each type of S. 7) the S is supposed to have an exoteric sense, known by all. But the mechanism linking the S with it's positive result is transcendental (and we know well that the dissuasive effect of DP is illusory). 8) the S is detroying something or a part of something, excluding it of any further social use. 9) diachronically or synchronically, some groups of the society are able to change some features of the ritual (even using a symbolic substitution). Alas, a tenth argument destroy the link: In S the victim must be "de premier choix", innocent and ritually pure: that's obviously not the case in DP! That's true that, firstly viewing, some mythical kills are ambiguous. When bhIma kills duHzAsana, he says after: (VIII,61,16, Poona) adyaiva dAsyAmy aparaM dvitIyaM / duryodhanaM yajnapazuM vizasya / the use of dA- and yajna- seems to refer clearly to a sacrifice, but bhIma follows immediatly with: ziro mRditvA ca padA durAtmanaH / zAntiM lapsye kauravANAM samakSam // the middle form of labh- shows clearly that the own desire of vengeance of bhIma is the only thing targeted: he use the words of the sacrifice, not the content, nor even the form: drinking blood or breaking thigh are not ritual but refer to the older comportment of the victims against draupadI. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From mgansten at SBBS.SE Tue Apr 28 07:42:32 1998 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 09:42:32 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037967.23782.15640250641905823021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Cronk wrote: >I do think that there is something to be said for the retributive theory of >punishment. Is that approach so scantily supported in Indian thought as to >be beneath contempt and to place retributivists in a category that DESERVES >NO consideration? As far as I can see, retribution is precisely the idea behind Manu's stating that criminals are purified (absolved) by being punished, and thus a very basic Hindu (or Brahminical, Lars, if you insist) concept. For a modern defense of the retributive view, see C.S. Lewis' article "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment" (1949). Several good points there. Martin Gansten From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Apr 28 08:16:51 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 10:16:51 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037969.23782.1542646635965218820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: >As far as I can see, retribution is precisely the idea behind Manu's stating >that criminals are purified (absolved) by being punished, and thus a very >basic Hindu (or Brahminical, Lars, if you insist) concept. For a modern >defense of the retributive view, see C.S. Lewis' article "The Humanitarian >Theory of Punishment" (1949). Several good points there. I am not sure that we have to make a distinction between Hindu and Brahminical here, Martin. My point was simply that in practical politics, things are not necessarily done according to the principles of religion. There are alternative, non-religious intellectual paradigms. But an idea struck me a few moments ago. In the seventies, the prevalent attitude to punishment in this country was that the criminal should be regarded as "sick" and that punishment should be a "treatment". The criminal was therefore not only offered a jail sentence but also various kinds of support, such as psychological treatment, education etc. I hate stretching concepts too far, but I think there is a bit of the "purification" doctrine in this approach, albeit in a modern version. Now, the concept of crime as social illness seems to be on its way out. Or as a Norwegian top lawyer once put it: "the point of putting professional criminals in jail is to keep them off the streets for a while." Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Apr 28 16:33:39 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 10:33:39 -0600 Subject: Dancing "Siva (and Tirumuular) Message-ID: <161227037978.23782.4051075611505533118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *I do not dispute that southern iconographies of "Siva's dances are *southern. It is also possible that "Siva dancing makes his first *appearance in southern sources; but you have not proved that this is *the case. What is the evidence for dating Appar, Kaaraikaalammaiyaar, *the Cilapatikkaaram, and the quotations in unnamed commentaries on *Ca"nkam poetry you mention to before the 6th century? A) The very first song in kalittokai is on "Siva's dance with Umaa. Kalittokai is a classical sangam text. Many believe this predates 6th century. ARu aRi antaNarkku aru maRai pala pakarntu tERu nIr caTai karantu tiripuram tI maTuttu kURAmal kuRittatan2 mEl cellum kaTu kULi mARA pOr maNi miTaRRu eN kaiyAy kEL in2i paTu paRai pala iyampa pal uruvam peyarttu nI koTukoTTi ATum kAl kOTu uyar akal alkul koTi purai nucuppin2AL koNTa cIr taruvAL O maNTu amar pala kaTantu matukaiyAl nIRu aNintu paNTaragkam ATum kAl paNai ezil aNai mel tOL vaNTu araRRum kUntalAL vaLar tUkku taruvAL O kolai uzuvai tOl acaI kon2Rai tAr cuval puraLa talai agkai koNTu nI kApAlam ATum kAl mulai aNinta muRuvalAL mun2 pANi taruvAL O B) Three examples from medieval commentaries describing "Siva's dance. How do we say that these are very early, ie., earlier than 6th century? 1) Many other examples given in these commentaries are from and exist in sangam anthologies, so these must be from works now lost 2) the language & meter. The meter, akaval, same as in the following poems is in sangam poetry. Later, veNpaa dominates in didactic works; Bhakti poems are precursor to viruttam of the epics period. (i) From tolkaappiyam ceyuuLiyal 149 (pEraaciriyar's commentary); also in naccin2Arkkin2iyar's commentary; also in yaapparuGkala virutti 87 commentary also in vIracOziyam, yaappiyal, 17 commentary puuNTa paRai aRaiyap pUtam maruLa niiNta caTaiyaan2 aaTumE niiNTa caTaiyaan2 aaTum en2pa maaNTa caayal malaimakaL kaaNavE kaaNavE (ii) From yaapparuGkala virutti 76 commentary varikoL aravu matiyum cuzalak karikaal Enti aaTumE karikaal Enti aaTum iRaivan2 puripun2 caTaimEl pun2alum piRazavE (iii) From tolkaappiyam ceyyuLiyal 146 pEraacirayar commentary also in naccin2Arkkin2iyar commentary taTamtaaTku otta taman2iyac cilampu paTamtaaz kaccaip paampoTu miLira ven2RaaTu tiruttaatai viyantukait tuTikoTTa nin2RaaTu mazakaLiRRai nin2aivaarE vin2aiyilarE (By the way, I have not seen anyone using the above poems from tolkaappiyam commentaries on their Nataraja writeups. Not even Ananda Coomaraswamy! May be they were unavailable to him. Not in Tamil either.) C) Paul Wheatley, The Mount of the Immortals, A note on Tamil cultural influence in fifth-century Indochina, Oriens Extremus, v. 21, no. 1, 1974, p. 97-109. In 484 A.D., King KauNDinya Jayavarman of Funan sent an envoy to China, reported in Chinese chronicles. Wheatley's primary focus is to show that "Siva's mountain called as Mayentiram in Tamil is what is transcribed into Chinese and Cambodian. In his own words, "But it is still the Sanskrit name Mahendra that is associated with the god, and this is a form that cannot have been the original of the Chinese transcripion Mu^a-t^.am. Somewhat unexpectedly in the general context of the brahmanization of Southeast Asia as it had been customarily presented, it is in *Tamil* (not Sanskrit) "saivaite literature that the source of the Chinese transcription must be sought. The relevant texts have recently been assembled in convenient translation by Professor Filliozat ("New researches"), from whose versions the following citations are taken. The earliest extant Tamil reference to 'Siva as the King of Gods occurs in the 6th century TiruvirattaimaNimaalai of the woman saint Karaikkaalammaiyar, who unequivocally designates the god as "Lord of the Immortals" (amarar piraan). But the most numerous and most explicit passages ensconcing "Siva on Mount Mahendra are to be found in Tiruvaacakam, the 'Sacred Utterances' that constitute a veritable spiritual autobiography of the Tamil saint MaNikkavAcakar, perhaps the greatest of all exponents of the "saivasiddhaanta, who lived probably during the 9th century." [...] "Phonology and context here combine to support the conjecture that in MayEntiram, the Tamil form of the name of the abode of "Siva, is to be discerned the origin of the Chinese Mu^a-t^.am" ... "The use of the Tamil form of a name in a deposition submitted to the Chinese court in 484 A.D. is at first sight surprising in view of the general function of Sanskrit in the early centuries of the Christian era as the language of literary communication both within the Indian subcontinent, and abroad, but it is not the only instance of Tamil cultural influence in southern Indo-China during the B'iu-n^.am period, nor is the earliest. In the style of an ancestor of a ruler tributory to B'iu-n^.am who is mentioned on the famous stele from Vo-ca.nh, Filliozat has discerned a tamil royal title (BEFEO, 55, 1969, p.107-116). The ancestor in question appears on the stele as "Sri Maara, which Filliozat has shown, in the context established by the inscription, can only have been a Sanskrit rendering of MaaRan, a frequent element in the titularies of the Pandyan Kings of Madurai" ... If Tamil Mayentiram is found in China in 484 A.D., can I believe that Tamil Saivism must have been flourishing in 4th/5th centuries A.D. in Tamil India? D) The following is a description of a dancer (kUttac cAkkaiyan2) mimicking Nataraja's dance from cilappatikAram. R. Parthasarathy (translater of cilampu, Columbia univ. press) and K. Zvelebil date Cilappatikaaram in about 450 AD. Agku avaL tan2n2uTan2 aNi maNi aragkam vIgku nIr jnAlam ALvOn2 ERi tiru nilaic cEvaTic cilampu vAy pulampavum paritaru cegkaiyil paTu paRai Arppavum ceg kaN Ayiram tiruk kuRippu aruLavum cejn caTai cen2Ru ticaimukam alampavum pATakam pataiyAtu cUTakam tuLagkAtu mEkalai oliyAtu men2 mulai acaiyAtu vAr kuzai ATAtu maNik kuzal avizAtu umaiyavaL oru tiRan2 Aka Ogkiya imaiyavan2 ATiya koTTic cEtam pAttu aru nAl vakai maRaiyOr paRaiyUrk kUttac cAkkaiyan2 ATalin2 makizntu avan2 These are the earlier descriptions of Nataraja that comes to my mind predating the bhakti era of tirumantiram, tevaaram, aazvaar maTal, .. Regards N. Ganesan From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Tue Apr 28 09:48:17 1998 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 11:48:17 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037971.23782.7005007370843156700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin wrote: >ideas about punishment, crime etc. cannot simply be seen through the >eyes of the historian of religion or the anthropologist, they also have to >be analysed as tools for social and political control. That is why it does >not make sense to read dharma-shastra without reading artha-shastra at the >same time. A sharp divide between religion (rituals) and pragmatics (politics, economics) is not very fruitful. It neither accords very well with dharmas?aastra nor with arthas?aastra. And it certainly does not accord with most of the recent anthropology and history of religions. 1) The political domain is pragmatic, yes. But it is at the same time governed by concerns for divine agency and the way human and divine agencies are intertwined. See AS? 6.2.6-12 about the interrelation between these two. It is admitted by the text that both are there, and that both together "make the world go" (Kangle). The former, as part of a visible, human sphere "can be thought about" and is for that reason in the natural focus of a text dealing with artha, whereas the latter as part of an invisible, divine sphere is "incalculable", i.e. from the point of view of artha. The way the two are distinguished and distributed into different literary genres is a matter of expertice more than of an exclusive commitment to one of them. Divination, in particular, was a part of the royal domain, too. See Inden, "Kings and Omens", _Purity and Auspiciousness in Indian Society_, eds. Carman and Marglin, Brill 1985, pp.30-40. 2) The 'religious' domain is pragmatic too, both in terms of politics and economy. The development of dharmas?aastra is characterised, among other features, precisely by the way arthas?aastra material is increasingly integrated (as vyavahaara). Derrett's chronology of dharmas?aastra is primarily based on this principle. See his _Dharmas?aastra and Juridical Literature_, pp.26ff and pp.32-33, in A History of Indian Literature. Or take an institution like penance, an exclusive dharmas?aastra subject in terms of literary genres, and seemingly a purely soteriological institution. But no. The detailed discussions in the commentaries about penances for receiving wealth from unworthy givers (asatpratigraha) aim at safeguarding economic transactions, more than at removing people's bad karma. See Derrett, _Religion, Law and the State in India_, London 1968, pp.122-147. Of course there is a point in rejecting the stereotype that Indian culture is religious throughout, and AS? may be a good argument in that effort, but isn't this pretty basic, after all? It is, I believe, more fruitful (and interesting) to investigate the interrelations between politics and religion than looking at each domain in isolation. Regards, Mikael Aktor, University of Aarhus, Denmark. aktor at post8.tele.dk From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Apr 28 11:22:08 1998 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 13:22:08 +0200 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037972.23782.18023619927574381546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mikael Aktor wrote: >Of course there is a point in rejecting the stereotype that Indian >culture is religious throughout, and AS? may be a good argument in that >effort, but isn't this pretty basic, after all? It is, I believe, more >fruitful (and interesting) to investigate the interrelations between >politics and religion than looking at each domain in isolation. I would like to thank Mikael for a thorough contribution to the debate. I would of course agree with the statement above. At the same time, however, we have to remember that Indic literature is heavily slanted towards Brahmin literature. Kshatriyavidya is much less known, and may not even have been codified in shastras. AS for connections between ritualism and arthashastra, I may perhaps point to Brian K. Smith's book Classifying the Universe. On page 58ff, he discusses the relationship between the "upper castes" and the vaishyas. I find the discussion quite illuminating, because some of the attitudes presented there are also found in the arthashastra. The fact that arthashastra was increasingly introduced into dharmashastra shows the importance of the subject. For brahmins working at court, it must have been unavoidable. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Apr 28 19:09:16 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 15:09:16 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227037983.23782.2122352709028978421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. R. Gardner said: "As to the topic at hand re. sacrifice: perhaps the executions are not sacrifices as Lars notes. HOwever, it cannot be denied that they are infinitely ritualized--with all attendant praayazcitti rites of debatable efficacy--and certainly sanitized." I don't think that modernist sanitization of executions is effected by ritualization (I'm not asserting that JRG was saying they were, but the words could accept that interpretation). When executions were public and very un-sanitized they were yet more ritualistic. Some social historian (was it Aries? Foucault?) remarked that the ancien regime execution was a theatrical ritual of which both the principal performer and even the stage manager was the condemned. Anyway, pretty much all significant social acts are to some degree ritualized even in modern society. Allen Thrasher From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Apr 28 19:34:49 1998 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 15:34:49 -0400 Subject: Human sacrifice and the death penalty Message-ID: <161227037985.23782.7249309425620346615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pardon me for sending this twice, but I forgot to put a title on it the first time. J. R. Gardner said: "As to the topic at hand re. sacrifice: perhaps the executions are not sacrifices as Lars notes. HOwever, it cannot be denied that they are infinitely ritualized--with all attendant praayazcitti rites of debatable efficacy--and certainly sanitized." I don't think that modernist sanitization of executions is effected by ritualization (I'm not asserting that JRG was saying they were, but the words could accept that interpretation). When executions were public and very un-sanitized they were yet more ritualistic. Some social historian (was it Aries? Foucault?) remarked that the ancien regime execution in Europe was a theatrical ritual of which both the principal performer and even the stage manager was the condemned. Anyway, pretty much all significant social acts are to some degree ritualized even in modern society. Allen Thrasher From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Apr 28 21:40:54 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 15:40:54 -0600 Subject: human sacrifice and death penalty Message-ID: <161227037986.23782.17739821411585653740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The other day I was glancing an on-flight magazine on glossy paper. Louis 14th (or 16th?), husband of Marie Antoinette, was guillotined during French revolution. The details of that day and the final words of the King. The magnificient words went something like this: 1) I am not guilty for these charges; 2) I pardon those who are doing this crime; (May be he does this due to habit) 3) Pray that in the future, France, my beloved nation, will never see horror like this. After the end of the Poligar wars, around 1805-1815 A.D., British hanged those against them. Two brothers, Periya and Chinna Marudu Servai who served Kattabommu recorded some final statements. Dr. N. Sanjivi, Univ. of madras, once published them. Those words are pretty powerful too. N. Ganesan From srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU Tue Apr 28 20:59:12 1998 From: srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 16:59:12 -0400 Subject: devaanaampriya Message-ID: <161227037988.23782.5011661745209478322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A while ago there was a discussion on "devaanaam-priyaH". While looking thru the book "amRtadhArA: Professor R.N.Dandekar Felictation volume" I found the following article of G.B.Palsule "Devaanaam-priyaH : Has it any Vedic antecedents ?"... where he also refers to another article of his on the subject "Devaanaam-priyaH" in Indian Linguistics, Vol. 30, (Katre Felicitation Volume), part II. pp. 134-161. His main points are : "the expression has a long and chequered history in the later Sanskrit literature. It first occurs in the vArttika of Katyayana as an instance of aluk-compound having, as is now proved, no bad meaning whatsoever. Patanjali links that word with other honorific expressions such as tatra-bhavAn and also himself uses it as such. The expression continued to be used as a courteous substitute of the 2nd person pronoun tvam for centuries in belle-lettre like HarSacarita, PadmaprAbhRtakA, ... " "On the other hand, the expression has been found only in an ironic sense in the scientific literature on different systems of philosophy, commentaries on the sutras, works on poetics,..." "Finally the word came to mean a fool in which sense the word first occurs in MammaTa's kAvyaprakAs'a and Abhinavagupta's TantrAloka. This change first occured around 1000 AD and this change of meaning is reflected in the grammars and lexicons subsequent to this date." "I have suggested elsewhere that a misunderstanding of the MahAbhASya passage under Panini 2.4.56 mentioned above, primarily by Kaiyata and possibly also by MammaTa, was responsible for the new directly derogatory meaning that came to be attached to the expression under discussion." From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Tue Apr 28 20:03:53 1998 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 22:03:53 +0200 Subject: paaNTaraGkam dance Message-ID: <161227037981.23782.11705301335834643994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I vaguely remember Prof. Jean Filliozat has a paper on >"Siva's dance called paaNTaraGkam or paNTaraGkam from Tamil >literature, Sanskrit, South East Asia etc., > >I need the reference. > >Thanks, >N. Ganesan I presume that you refer to Jean Filliozat's article entitled "PaaNDaraGga-PaaNDuraGga" in The Journal of Oriental Research, Madras, XXIV-XXV, 1973, p. 31-32. Regards, Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Apr 28 23:09:38 1998 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 04:09:38 +0500 Subject: Vishnu Purana on personal names Message-ID: <161227037990.23782.17420934523428315573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have come across the folllowing slokas in viSNu purANa on "How a person's name should be?" nArthahInaM ca cAsastaM nApazabdayutaM tathA nAmaGglyaM jugupsyaM vA nAma kuryAt samAkSaraM nAtidIrghaM nAtihrasvaM nAtigurvakSarAnvitaM sukhOccAryaM tu tannAma kuryAd yatpravaNAkSaraM (3.10.10-11) " you shoud give a name which is not meaningless, not unacceptable, not ungrammatical, not inauspicious, non-revulsive, of balanced letters, not very long, not very short, of not too many long (guru) letters, easily prnounceable and of conquering letters(?)" Gita Press edition gives "yatpravaNAkSaraM" = ending with a hrasva. Please do not try to point out that my name violates quite a few of these rules. I know it! regards, sarma. From roheko at MSN.COM Wed Apr 29 03:12:39 1998 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 05:12:39 +0200 Subject: Vishnu Purana on personal names Message-ID: <161227037993.23782.18093634471334689131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why did you sent this message to Indology? Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Mittwoch, 29. April 1998 00:39 Betreff: Vishnu Purana on personal names >I have come across the folllowing slokas in viSNu purANa on "How a >person's name should be?" > >nArthahInaM ca cAsastaM nApazabdayutaM tathA >nAmaGglyaM jugupsyaM vA nAma kuryAt samAkSaraM >nAtidIrghaM nAtihrasvaM nAtigurvakSarAnvitaM >sukhOccAryaM tu tannAma kuryAd yatpravaNAkSaraM (3.10.10-11) > >" you shoud give a name which is not meaningless, not unacceptable, >not ungrammatical, not inauspicious, non-revulsive, of balanced letters, >not very long, not very short, of not too many long (guru) letters, >easily prnounceable and of conquering letters(?)" > >Gita Press edition gives "yatpravaNAkSaraM" = ending with >a hrasva. > >Please do not try to point out that my name violates quite a few >of these rules. I know it! > >regards, > >sarma. > From brao at USC.EDU Wed Apr 29 16:31:00 1998 From: brao at USC.EDU (Bapa Rao) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 09:31:00 -0700 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227037998.23782.8593233403488962484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is true that, approximately until 1000 A.D., there wasn't evidence of significant govenrment sponsorship of Telugu, though there are a number of very early copper grant documents etc. in Telugu, indicating that some government business was conducted in Telugu. However, I don't see a causal link between the advent of Muslim rule and the "easing of Sanskrit pressure," circa 1000 A.D. At least in Telugu, the first major government-sponsored literary project in Telugu, namely the translation of the Mahabharata, was a manifestation of deliberate government policy to indigenize itself; the government at that time was a product of marriage between the Western, Kannada-speaking Chalukya dynasty and the Southern Chola dynasty. During the Kakatiya empire, there was a great deal of literary activity in Telugu, but there was no Muslim connection within the empire till the very last, under Prataparudra. Since the North was firmly under the Delhi Sultanate at that time, the argument that fleeing northern brahmin pandits contributed to the Sanskrit element of Telugu would make some sense here, on the face of it. The indigenization and Telugization process appears to have been a natural progression for any multigenerational regime, intended mainly for practical reasons, to achieve better integration between the rulers and the ruled. Even the imperial Sanskritic Satavahanas, it would appear, had court scholars who wrote in (what was possibly) Telugu. The famous legend of the contest between Gunaadhya and Sarva-varma (my memory may be inaccurate here as to names etc.), which ended with the former abandoning Sanskrit and writing an opus in "paisaachi" (which might have been old Telugu or one of the related tribal languages) is indicative of this. Coming to Muslim rulers, there is some indication that the Bahmani Golconda rulers participated to some extent in this indigenization process, no doubt aided by their proximity to, and rivalry with the contemporary Vijayanagar empire. The last ruler of Golconda, Quli Qutb Shah (known as Taneshah) was known to be quite an accomplished poet in Telugu. Under the Nizam's rule, official relationship with Telugu was one of benign neglect at best. The nizams at no time saw themselves as Telugu people, and displayed little interest in working with it or promoting it. So much for official interaction with Telugu. As for influences on common vocabulary, well, Telugu has always been (IMO, like English) very open to foreign imports, be they Sanskrit or Persian. Though Telugu grammarians treat Sanskrit imports in a privileged way (tatsama and tadbhava) while lumping all other foreign imports into the same bag (anya-deshyam), I see no logical reason for making a value judgement either way--it makes as little sense to boast about the Sanskrit heritage of Telugu as it does to say that the Persian influence saved Telugu from Sanskritization. By setting it up as a morality play with arbitrary "hero" and "villain" foreign languages, we will be missing out on valuable insights into the nature of the language and the natural forces that shape cultural accumulation. Bapa Rao N. Ganesan wrote: > I was under the impression: > > The reason for excessive use of Sanskrit words in Telugu, > > a Dravidian language, when compared to Tamil, is that all the Hindu > > arts and Sanskrit pundits took refuge in Telugu Desam. > > Especially during the Muslim rule of the North > > and in Vijayanahgar kingdoms. > > That had the effect of increase in number of Sanskrit words > > used in Telugu, neglecting "acca telugu" words (original Telugu). > > Uday Reddy, reddy at reddy.cs.uiuc.edu wrote back: > +Well, actually, I think the Muslim rule in the North helped the > +Dravidian languages, in that the pressure of Sanskrit eased. (It also > +helped the North Indian languages the same way.) Almost all the big > +kingdoms before 1000 AD, Satavahana, Chalukya and Rashtrakuta promoted > +Sanskrit or Prakrit. There was NO patronage for Telugu. (Kannada > +fared a little better somehow.) But after 1000 AD, things changed and > +Telugu developed enormously. Basically, there was no Sanskrit > +imperialism after the Muslims came into India. > > Uday is a native Telugu from AP. > > Any thoughts? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Apr 29 16:51:54 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 10:51:54 -0600 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227037995.23782.8136079910368861044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was under the impression: > The reason for excessive use of Sanskrit words in Telugu, > a Dravidian language, when compared to Tamil, is that all the Hindu > arts and Sanskrit pundits took refuge in Telugu Desam. > Especially during the Muslim rule of the North > and in Vijayanahgar kingdoms. > That had the effect of increase in number of Sanskrit words > used in Telugu, neglecting "acca telugu" words (original Telugu). Uday Reddy, reddy at reddy.cs.uiuc.edu wrote back: +Well, actually, I think the Muslim rule in the North helped the +Dravidian languages, in that the pressure of Sanskrit eased. (It also +helped the North Indian languages the same way.) Almost all the big +kingdoms before 1000 AD, Satavahana, Chalukya and Rashtrakuta promoted +Sanskrit or Prakrit. There was NO patronage for Telugu. (Kannada +fared a little better somehow.) But after 1000 AD, things changed and +Telugu developed enormously. Basically, there was no Sanskrit +imperialism after the Muslims came into India. Uday is a native Telugu from AP. Any thoughts? Regards, N. Ganesan From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 29 21:59:47 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 14:59:47 -0700 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227038000.23782.10859758246009008507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof Ganesan says: >I was under the impression: >> The reason for excessive use of Sanskrit words in Telugu, >> a Dravidian language, when compared to Tamil, is that all the Hindu >> arts and Sanskrit pundits took refuge in Telugu Desam. >> Especially during the Muslim rule of the North >> and in Vijayanahgar kingdoms. >> That had the effect of increase in number of Sanskrit words >> used in Telugu, neglecting "acca telugu" words (original Telugu). and Prof Uday Reddy, reddy at reddy.cs.uiuc.edu wrote back: >+Well, actually, I think the Muslim rule in the North helped the >+Dravidian languages, in that the pressure of Sanskrit eased. (It also +helped the North Indian languages the same way.) Almost all the big+kingdoms before 1000 AD, Satavahana, Chalukya and Rashtrakuta promoted +Sanskrit or Prakrit. There was NO patronage for Telugu. (Kannada+fared a little better somehow.) But after 1000 AD, things changed and +Telugu developed enormously. Basically, there was no Sanskrit +imperialism after the Muslims came into India.>> As Sreenivas points out, the explanation seems to be a little simplistic and does not seem to be taking in various developments which were generically true of India. It has been noted that in the Dravidian languages, there has been an increasing trend of Samskrtization over the centuries with a "peak" after 1200 A.D. As proof of this ,in Tamil, the "cilappadikAram" (5th century CE) shows little samskrtization, there is some samskrtization in the early nayan2mAr works and AzhvAr works,( 7th-9th century) and by the 12th century ,when the maNipravALAm style held sway, samskrtization had taken root so firmly that there were Tamil works with more Samskrt words than Tamil words. In kannaDa, the 9th century classic kavirAjamArga discourages samskrt usage, 12th century works of the vIrazaiva saints are some what samskrtized and by the 14th century, the "dAsakOOTa" is very samskrtized. Thus if from a chronological point of view Tamil>Kannada>Telugu, in terms of samskrtization of works( starting off from the oldest works upto the 14th century) we have: Tamil Message-ID: <161227037996.23782.11101661516312196402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan, I wish I could write at length. I feel that the assumptions made in the following lines are too simplistic. Prof. VNR has written on the role (and importance) of Sanskrit in mediaeval Andhra. As beginning I would first read his recent essay: Coconut and Honey: Sanskrit and Telugu in medieval Andhra Social Scientist, Vol 23 Nos 10-12, Oct-Dec 1995, pp 24-40 More later, Regards, Sreenivas P.S Thanks once again for Shulman's biblio.! From brao at USC.EDU Thu Apr 30 03:50:50 1998 From: brao at USC.EDU (Bapa Rao) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 20:50:50 -0700 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227038002.23782.13373586699049617484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my posting I implied that the last king of the Golconda Bahmanis was Quli Qutb Shah, aka Taneshah. My memory now says that this is an error : Quli Qutb Shah was the founder of the dynasty of which Abul Hassan Taneshah was the last king. My apologies. The anecdote about the contest between the scholars Sarva-varma and Gunaadhya that I alluded to is quite an engaging one: the two were members of the court of Haala, the last of the "great satavahanas." Acc. to the story, Haala was sporting in the swimming pool with his ladies; when he playfully splashed one of them with water, she squealed in Sanskrit, "mOdakaistaaDaya," which parses to maa+udakai:+taaDaya, don't strike [me] with the water. (I make no claim as to the correctness of any of the Sanskrit here, I am only telling the story as I recall it from reading it long ago). The king mis-parses this as "mOdakai:+taaDaya", strike [me] with mOdakaas (sweet edible balls similar to today's laDDUs), and,thinking this to be a novel form of love-play, orders a plate of the desserts and proceeds to attack the sweet young thing with them. The lady, on recovering from her astonishment, says, mockingly, "O great scholar! What I meant was, do not strike me with the water." Stung, the king leaves in a huff, summons his court scholars, and demands a crash course in proper Sanskrit. Only the aforementioned pair of scholars are up for the challenge; GunaaDhya offers to make the king a scholar in six years' time; Sarva-varma counters with an offer of six months. GunaaDhya vows to give up Sanskrit as well as Prakrit and write only in paizaaci thereafter if Sarva-varma were to succeed in making the king a passable scholar in such a short time, which does ensue, leading to the fulfillment of his vow by the latter. As I remember, the opus of GuNaaDhya was called the "Brihat-katha" (don't know why a paizaaci work would have a sanskrit name). I don't claim any authenticity or accuracy to the legend, even qua legend. However, it does indicate that even the Sanskritic Haala wasn't all that comfortable in Sanskrit. Bapa Rao From murphy at BIOLOGY.UCSC.EDU Thu Apr 30 15:53:31 1998 From: murphy at BIOLOGY.UCSC.EDU (Angus Murphy) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 08:53:31 -0700 Subject: FW: Flowers and plant reproduction Message-ID: <161227038012.23782.11599907367302880214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am currently researching some aspects of the history of the study of flowering plants for some popular science writing. One of the most crucial issues in such a history is that of sexual reproduction by plants. Although the Greeks appear to have understood that some plants like the date palm were unable to fertilize themselves and recognized two different flower types, pollen was regarded as a form of excrement rather than an agent of fertilization. So far, in my amateur inquiries into early Indian writings, I find references to male and female flowers based on their shape or form and descriptions of pollen as dust, but no specific mention of hybridization or pollination. Yet there are some poetic texts that seem to include pollen gathering by bees in metaphors for amorous pastimes. Are ther any sources ( In English or another Western language) that I can be directed to? Any information offered would be appreciated and , if used, would be properly attributed. Thanking you in advance for any assistance. Sincerely, Angus Murphy Biology Dept. University of California, Santa Cruz From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 30 15:06:02 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 09:06:02 -0600 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227038010.23782.3396907321263588452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. S. Krishna writes: *by the 12th century, when the maNipravALam style held sway, *samskrtization had taken root so firmly that there were Tamil *works with more Samskrt words than Tamil words. I do not know what works are being referred here. May be in a few Jaina works like mErumantira purANam or the ubhaya vedAnta tradition of Srivaishnavas. Here, ubhaya-twofold refers to both Tamil and Sanskrit traditions. Srivaishnavas wrote beautiful commentaries on aazvaar paasurams quoting extensivily from sanskrit material bringing out inner nuances and philosophical contents of aazvaar bhakti. The aims here are different: 1) to explain Jainism in tamil 2) to spread aazvaar bhakti northwards respectively. But in all periods, Tamil works employing tamil vocabulary far exceed the no. of maNipravALam tamil works. Can give you 100s of examples for any century CE. Coupled with the fact that no help from the West in editing of tamil palm-leaves. Tamil had many Westerners working for it. eg., Caldwell formulated Dravidian language family; Pope translated TiruvAsagam; Much earlier, Viiramaamunivar brought a Christian epic & western methods of lexicography; B. Ziegenbalg .. However Tamil has not had yet her own C. P. Brown who saved many Telugu manuscripts. There are about 3000 tamil palm-leaf manuscripts in Europe; some have not even been catalogued yet. Remember Europeans started working in Kerala & Tamil nadu from 1600 CE onwards. Compared to Sanskrit manuscript editings by the West, equally ancient tamil works await critical edition. In Tamil India, tamil professors look more (to me, atleast) as comedians/jokers on TV & sabha/sangam meetings than in-depth researchers. In my honest searches, I know of not more than 10 Tamil professors who know enough of old & medieval Tamil literature who can edit a text from palm leaves. Regards, N. Ganesan From Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Thu Apr 30 11:57:56 1998 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 11:57:56 +0000 Subject: request Message-ID: <161227038006.23782.18048518665761646026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone let me know the e-mail address of Prof. K.R. Norman, in Cambridge (U.K.)? Thanks. Johannes Bronkhorst From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Thu Apr 30 16:21:34 1998 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 12:21:34 -0400 Subject: FW: Flowers and plant reproduction In-Reply-To: <000301bd7450$203cc0a0$a68d7280@bio-taizlab.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <161227038013.23782.5394546882036734850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have also been trying to get this information for quite some time. Several ancient texts have compared plants with the human beings in their functions. In Vedas and upanishads, plants are known to have life (born and death), hearing power, healing power, sense of touch, etc. In such a comparison with animals and human beings, reproduction and gender is a natural curiousity. Please share any information you have with the list on the similarities and differences between plant-life and animal-life, along with the information on reproduction. Alok Kumar Department of Physics State University of New York Oswego, NY 13126. On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Angus Murphy wrote: > Dear Indologists, > I am currently researching some aspects of the history of the > study of flowering plants for some popular science writing. One of the > most crucial issues in such a history is that of sexual reproduction by > plants. Although the Greeks appear to have understood that some plants > like the date palm were unable to fertilize themselves and recognized > two different flower types, pollen was regarded as a form of excrement > rather than an agent of fertilization. > So far, in my amateur inquiries into early Indian writings, I find references to male and female flowers based on their shape or form and descriptions of pollen as dust, but no specific mention of hybridization or pollination. Yet there are some poetic texts that seem to include pollen gathering by bees in metaphors for amorous pastimes. Are ther any sources ( In English or another Western language) that I can be directed to? > Any information offered would be appreciated and , if used, would be properly attributed. > Thanking you in advance for any assistance. > Sincerely, > Angus Murphy > Biology Dept. > University of California, Santa Cruz > From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Apr 30 09:01:14 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 13:01:14 +0400 Subject: thanks and new address Message-ID: <161227038032.23782.9520234366891645472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks (unfortunately, delayed) to Surya P.Mittal - for Prof. B.B.Lal's address (April 10) to R.H.Koch - for a picture sent on April 11 (alas, it is still a wrong type of gambling dice) and to N.Ganesan - for abundant information and bibliography on horses in megalithic culture (April 13). I could not express my gratitude earlier because I had to change my E-mail address and was unable to contact INDOLOGY for some time. To whom it may concern: my new address is yavass at YV1041.spb.edu Best wishes to all Yaroslav Vassilkov From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Apr 30 09:11:04 1998 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 13:11:04 +0400 Subject: Iranians in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227038034.23782.5057081494320714669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, can anybody give me a reference to Sanskrit texts or secondary sources mentioning the presence of Iranians (Magas or otherwise) in Ancient or Mediaeval India (especially, in historical Magadha/Bihar)? Thanks in advance Yaroslav Vassilkov new E-mail address: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 30 21:34:14 1998 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 14:34:14 -0700 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227038023.23782.12538136027953825026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I had said: >>*by the 12th century, when the maNipravALam style held sway, >>*samskrtization had taken root so firmly that there were Tamil >>*works with more Samskrt words than Tamil words. >Mr Ganesan says: >>I do not know what works are being referred here. When I said "works", I had specific pieces in mind, not the whole corpus of writing in Tamil. Kamil Zvelebil for example,("Smile of murukan") gives us an analytical break up of Tamil vs Samskrt words in the poems of aruNagirinAtar, the 14th/15th century Tamil poet. He specifically quotes two verses ( one of which starts as "nAta pintu kalAti namO nama") in which more than 50% of the words are Samskrt. I believe that this is a very generic feature of aruNagirinAtar's works. We also have the savant and grammarian cuvAminAta dEcikar, who supports writing in a samskrtized style; though he himself was from the 17th-18th centuries,I think that the works used by him in order to formulate his views date back to the 12th-14th centuries. Lastly, I have read this statement in the works of Dr M.VaratarAjan2 who lists( from what I remember) tamil zrIvaiSNava works where over-Samskrtization is a feature. (I unfortunately donot remember the names of the works he lists). REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Apr 30 13:36:11 1998 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 14:36:11 +0100 Subject: request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227038008.23782.11841911778807183887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: > Could someone let me know the e-mail address of Prof. K.R. Norman, in > Cambridge (U.K.)? Thanks. > > Johannes Bronkhorst > krn11 at hermes.cam.ac.uk -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 30 20:54:53 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 14:54:53 -0600 Subject: telugu history Message-ID: <161227038017.23782.6452198333758777936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Mr. S. Krishna writes: >*by the 12th century, when the maNipravALam style held sway, >*samskrtization had taken root so firmly that there were Tamil >*works with more Samskrt words than Tamil words. >But in all periods, Tamil works employing tamil vocabulary >far exceed the no. of maNipravALam tamil works. Can give you 100s of >examples for any century CE. > Dr. Bh. Krishnamurti writes: *And what about the naming pattern in Tamil Nadu--GaNesan, KaruNaanidhi, *SaNmukam, etc. How old is this tradition? Most Tamil names, if you look at *the electoral roles, are of Sanskrit origin as it is true of the other *literary Dravidian languages. Nativizing Sanskrit names into Tamil, like *neTunceZiyan, aaRmukam, etc. is a recent trend which has political origins *and overtones. The naming of Tamils with Sanskrit names is after the Bhakti movement. But neTuJceziyan2 occurs in classical sangam texts. aaRumukam is NOT a recent trend. It occurs in all periods and in all facets of tamil culture. May be it is political, but is it wrong on the part of Tamils to name their kids with those found in classical Tamil sangam texts (eg., neTuJceziyan2)?! Are they allowed to use the names they have always been using (eg., aaRumukam)?! *What does it matter which language has more of Sanskrit or less of Sanskrit? *As a linguist, I see this kind of inquiry itself is political. English, the *greatest language of the world, has only 5% of Anglo Saxon native element. *How are you suddenly interested in the Telugu History and what are you *driving at? It is true, as JBSHaldane (in the Hindu in the fifties) once *said, Telugu has greater accommodative power of foreign borrowings without *creating tadbhavas than the other modern Indian languages and he said it *deserved to be the official language of India. Agree with and support J. B. S. Haldane 100%. My interest in knowing about Telugu culture in not new. I have been reading about Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam culture quite a bit as far as I remember. I talk to my telugu friends if I have a question. Have compiled a huge bibliography of 25000 english items on S. Indian culturescape. Of course, with a tilt towards Tamil. Sir, Upon seeing your brief messages on Indology, I wrote to you twice a personal message seeking your list of publications. Unfortunately, I did not get a reply. That is a kind of evidence that my interest in Telugu is not sudden. I still seek your list of publications. Any thing told about possibility from Dravidian side is branded as "political" or "regional chauvinism" of tamils. Any Dravidian etymology is usually accorded benign neglect. I am asking a simple question: why Telugu is full of Sanskrit words? That's all. All the replies are useful (to a degree). I agree that borrowing and especially from Sanskrit is good. Once a famous professor Sanskrit wrote in Indology " [Para 3: ] The main Indian way of thinking and mode of creativity have probably been somewhat influenced by the Perso-Arabic way and mode. The possible contribution of tribal cultures in shaping them need not be doubted either. However, essentially and predominantly, the way and the mode are Sanskrit-Tamil. Without the complexes of languages, literatures and (sub)cultures that are ultimately traceable to Sanskrit and Tamil, there would be no indianness to India. And regardless of the perception to the contrary that the propaganda based on some ill-informed research has succeeded in creating, it is a fact that Sanskrit and Tamil heritages have generally moved ahead on a tandem at least since the beginning of India as a cultural unit. " Another recent posting was: " I understand well why a theory showing the Indus Valley civilization (eventually "Dravidian") destroyed by invaders (eventually "Aryan") don't is today a "politically correct" one. But the arguments against it are poor (most of them "in absentia") and highly suspect to be justified by non-historical motives. We have some simple facts: - Indus Valley civilization disappears, just leaving ruins. - subsequent dwellers of the country speak a language strongly related to a great lot of languages spoken out of this country. - the same dwellers have ancient text talking about destruction of cities. [...] My choice is easy. I recall that I don't prefer Hindi-speakers to Tamil-speakers, nor the contrary. " (End of quote) Upon hearing these kind of nice words about Tamil's antiquity, Tamils look to their roots from classical sangam texts and name their kids with Tamil names. I do not see anything wrong, in spite of being repeatedly told that these things are "political". Just wondering whether these statements themselves are not political? Regards, N. Ganesan From saroja at UNIPUNE.ERNET.IN Thu Apr 30 22:18:12 1998 From: saroja at UNIPUNE.ERNET.IN (Saroja Bhate) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 15:18:12 -0700 Subject: word-index to shankarabhaaSya on UpaniSads Message-ID: <161227038004.23782.6257967209784327506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends My colleague wants to prepare a word-index to the shaankarabhaaSya on the UpaniSads.I would like to know if anyone is working on it or if such an index is already existing.I will be grateful for any information on this. Saroja Bhate From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Apr 30 22:17:36 1998 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 16:17:36 -0600 Subject: Beluur and Belgaum Message-ID: <161227038021.23782.523121862829921346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Seeking the opinion of Dravidian linguists on Indology on two place names of S. India: Beluur and Belgaum appear to be related to the Tamil cognates, vELuur and vELakam. My question: Are they related? Regards, N. Ganesan From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Thu Apr 30 20:45:24 1998 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 16:45:24 -0400 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227038020.23782.10337510516299333435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> @ @Mr. Ganesan: @I have no statistical studies on which literary Dravidian language has been @more influenced by Sanskrit than others and in what period. Do you have @these studies? Or is it your personal intuition? But, MalayaaLam, which was @the west coasst dialect of Tamil until the 10th century or so is the most @influenced by Sanskrit. This is not my intuition. It is a fact. Look at @Raamacaritam or UNNuniilisandees'am. Can you clarify why? Sometimes, the @Sanskrit influence in the pre-CE was subtle on Tamil. Tolkaappiyam used uyir @and mey which correspond to praaNa and praaNi, veeRRumai is translated from @vibhakti, tokai from samaasa, and uvamai is upama; kaappiyam is itself a @tadbhava of kaavyam whatever Tamil purists may say. May I know the arguments why the above are from sanskrit to tamil and not from tamil to sanskrit ? @tadbhava of kaavyam whatever Tamil purists may say. Is there any Tamil @classic which is devoid of the influence of Sanskrit langauge? Of course @not, because that was not a political problem then. @ @And what about the naming pattern in Tamil Nadu--GaNesan, KaruNaanidhi, @SaNmukam, etc. How old is this tradition? Most Tamil names, if you look at @the electoral roles, are of Sanskrit origin as it is true of the other @literary Dravidian languages. Nativizing Sanskrit names into Tamil, like @neTunceZiyan, aaRmukam, etc. is a recent trend which has political origins @and overtones. It is possible that some are from skt to tamil or as calque but not all. For example I would be quite interested to know why you consider aaRumukam as a translation of SaNmukam. It is probably the otherway around. I would be surprised if SaNmukam means same as aaRumukam. @ @What does it matter which language has more of Sanskrit or less of Sanskrit? @As a linguist, I see this kind of inquiry itself is political. English, the @greatest language of the world, has only 5% of Anglo Saxon native element. @How are you suddenly interested in the Telugu History and what are you @driving at? It is true, as JBSHaldane (in the Hindu in the fifties) once @said, Telugu has greater accommodative power of foreign borrowings without @creating tadbhavas than the other modern Indian languages and he said it @deserved to be the official language of India. I don't know the metrics for measuring the 'accomodative power of foreign borrowings', but Tamil can and does borrow verbs, nouns, and adjectives from English with such tremendous ease that it seems like a phenomenon. Only adverbs are not so easily borrowed except a few like 'fast', 'quick'. What is even more suprising is the 'ability' to accomodate whole english sentences or whole/partial clause or phrases. The alloy-syntax is interesting and it seems to affect even the native syntax. It is true this 'heavy borrowing' is mostly prevalent in urban 'middle-class' 'conversational tamil'. I'm not claiming that this 'phenomenon' is somehow exclusive to Tamil. Just to show that it has the 'ability' to borrow. Borrowing pattern: verb -> verb+'paNNu'. Example: 'drive' paNNu (=drive) noun -> no change but accepts 'vERRumai' endings Example: 'house'ai kaNdu pidiccEn (I found the house) adjective -> adjective + aa Example: avan 'tall'aa iruntaan ( = He was tall) syntax-alloy -> Many different patterns. Just one example: 'If he gives two years guarantee'nna paravayillai illEnaa vENdaam. (=If he gives two years guarantee, then it is allright otherwise we don't need it ) @ @Purity of a language is a myth. All languages borrow including Tamil.Do ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No problem here. The problem is some people assert that it is a one-way traffic from Sanskrit to Tamil and other indian languages. Or even if they don't say it is 'one-way' traffic, they will cite examples only or mostly from sanskrit to other languages. There are many myths and some are to do with Sanskrit. @different degrees matter? How? Borrowing is one of the ways of enriching a @language. Purism of any language is a pathological state of some of its @speakers who wanted to banish foreign elements from the language for @political purposes. No languge has benefitted by such attitudes; on the @contrary such languages have suffered in the long run. I've other questions on your posting, but may be I'll raise them later. selvaa @Best regards, Bh. K. @end @Bh. Krishnamurti @H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" @Street No.9, Tarnaka @Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. @India @Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 @E-mail: @ From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 30 18:34:01 1998 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 23:34:01 +0500 Subject: Telugu history Message-ID: <161227038015.23782.7225240746250015542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:06 30/04/98 -0600, you wrote: >Mr. S. Krishna writes: >*by the 12th century, when the maNipravALam style held sway, >*samskrtization had taken root so firmly that there were Tamil >*works with more Samskrt words than Tamil words. >But in all periods, Tamil works employing tamil vocabulary >far exceed the no. of maNipravALam tamil works. Can give you 100s of >examples for any century CE. > > However Tamil has not had yet her own C. P. Brown who saved many >Telugu manuscripts. There are about 3000 tamil palm-leaf >manuscripts in Europe; some have not even been catalogued yet. >Remember Europeans started working in Kerala & Tamil nadu from >1600 CE onwards. Compared to Sanskrit manuscript editings by >the West, equally ancient tamil works await critical edition. >In Tamil India, tamil professors look more (to me, atleast) >as comedians/jokers on TV & sabha/sangam meetings than >in-depth researchers. In my honest searches, I know of not >more than 10 Tamil professors who know enough of old & medieval >Tamil literature who can edit a text from palm leaves. >Regards, >N. Ganesan Mr. Ganesan: I have no statistical studies on which literary Dravidian language has been more influenced by Sanskrit than others and in what period. Do you have these studies? Or is it your personal intuition? But, MalayaaLam, which was the west coasst dialect of Tamil until the 10th century or so is the most influenced by Sanskrit. This is not my intuition. It is a fact. Look at Raamacaritam or UNNuniilisandees'am. Can you clarify why? Sometimes, the Sanskrit influence in the pre-CE was subtle on Tamil. Tolkaappiyam used uyir and mey which correspond to praaNa and praaNi, veeRRumai is translated from vibhakti, tokai from samaasa, and uvamai is upama; kaappiyam is itself a tadbhava of kaavyam whatever Tamil purists may say. Is there any Tamil classic which is devoid of the influence of Sanskrit langauge? Of course not, because that was not a political problem then. And what about the naming pattern in Tamil Nadu--GaNesan, KaruNaanidhi, SaNmukam, etc. How old is this tradition? Most Tamil names, if you look at the electoral roles, are of Sanskrit origin as it is true of the other literary Dravidian languages. Nativizing Sanskrit names into Tamil, like neTunceZiyan, aaRmukam, etc. is a recent trend which has political origins and overtones. What does it matter which language has more of Sanskrit or less of Sanskrit? As a linguist, I see this kind of inquiry itself is political. English, the greatest language of the world, has only 5% of Anglo Saxon native element. How are you suddenly interested in the Telugu History and what are you driving at? It is true, as JBSHaldane (in the Hindu in the fifties) once said, Telugu has greater accommodative power of foreign borrowings without creating tadbhavas than the other modern Indian languages and he said it deserved to be the official language of India. Purity of a language is a myth. All languages borrow including Tamil.Do different degrees matter? How? Borrowing is one of the ways of enriching a language. Purism of any language is a pathological state of some of its speakers who wanted to banish foreign elements from the language for political purposes. No languge has benefitted by such attitudes; on the contrary such languages have suffered in the long run. Best regards, Bh. K. end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: From barathi at PC.JARING.MY Thu Apr 30 22:43:53 1998 From: barathi at PC.JARING.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Fri, 01 May 98 06:43:53 +0800 Subject: Beluur and Belgaum Message-ID: <161227038025.23782.14623725469909160308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:17 PM 4/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >Seeking the opinion of Dravidian linguists on Indology >on two place names of S. India: > >Beluur and Belgaum appear to be related to the Tamil >cognates, vELuur and vELakam. > >My question: Are they related? > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > > Dear Ganesan, I am afraid I will be opening a Pandora's box by answering that. They are related. The Hoysalas were collaterals of the vEL clan. I was told that bELUr = vEL+Ur, and beLgaum = vEL+grAm. The story behind Hoysala (Hoy! SaLA!) is similar to the Tamil Sangam name and its meaning, Pulikadi mAl. Though the Hoysalas make their appearance in history later than the vELir, they were always around in the Mysore region. And there were also more than one sect (kudi) of vELir. The Calukyas were also known to be related to the vEL clans. In fact, there are instances where they are denoted as the "vEL pula vEnthar". vEL pulam is the Karnataka, Southern Maharshtra and parts of Telengana. Thanks for your patient reading. Regards, Jayabarathi