From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon Sep 1 10:24:45 1997 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 00:24:45 -1000 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032003.23782.11125981299104620866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Kumar, Thank you for a series of very interesting postings. Do you have any ideas or speculations as to WHY this phenomenon of "inversion" occurs in Dravidian languages (assuming it really does occur, and is not mere coincidence)? I don't know enough to even have a strong opinion whether "inversion" really occurs in Dravidian languages. Based on my knowledge of my mothertongue, modern Tamil, it doesn't seem to be significant. But I hardly know ancient Tamil -- e.g., "Sangham" Thamizh -- so I can't form an opinion. However, IF "inversion" really exists and occurs, one possible mechanism (for creating such word pairs) did occur to me: Suppose a particular language was originally written in (say) a right-to-left, or down-to-up script. And suppose that, over the course of history, it was replaced by a different script, with opposite direction (say, left-to-right, or up-to-down). (As we know, precisely such changes of script, or direction, have indeed happened in India). Then, if there was a transitional stage (before the "old" script was completely forgotten and became undecipherable), perhaps the scribes or scholars, when reading words in the "old" script, sometimes read them in the "new" (i.e., reversed) direction. They might even have done so simply for fun, or as an "inside joke", or wordplay; and as centuries passed, some might also have done it out of ignorance. This mechanism might account for the existence of, say, a few tens or few hundreds of word pairs which have similar meanings, but with consonant order reversed. Of course, for this to occur, several things would have to happen: 1. The language (or its ancestral languages) must have a written form from very ancient times. 2. A new script, with "reversed direction", must replace the old script. 3. And if the above mechanism was really operating to create such word pairs (with similar meaning but opposite consonant order), one word must always be much younger than the other (since, supposedly, it was merely a piece of "slang", or "jargon", or "wordplay", or simply a misreading, created by reading the older word backwards). Gosh... what a weird idea. Linguists must be glad I'm not one of them. :-) :-) Happy Labour Day, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From DKumar6248 at aol.com Mon Sep 1 05:11:00 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 01:11:00 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Narada Message-ID: <161227032002.23782.16391892284691537158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indologist List, I did not mention in my posting yesterday that the word rishi, the origin of which has been said to be uncertain, is also suspected to have been derived from a word meaning: 'push.' Here, (remembering the exchange in s and sh, which has been noted in the document on the World Wide Web) note the Kannada word: sari, which, even though does not precisely denote: push, has a related meaning: to move, go or move to one side (DED. #2360). The meanings of the related Dravidian words in the same group (DED. #2360) such as to bend down, be diminished, step aside! get out of the way! are interesting to note in light of some ancient sages' disposition to be very particular about things they really cared for: reverence to them. There is also the other word ras 'yell' from which also the word rishi is suspected to have been derived. Here, note the Kannada word: usir, which denotes: to utter (DED. #937). The important point is that these Kannada words denote all those meanings of the words from which the word rishi is suspected to have been derived. And also, the order of the consonants of these Kannada words is in the reverse order in the word rishi, which is an essential character of the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution or cryptography in Dravidian. Speaking of rishis, no Indologist worth his or her salt will admit that he does not know the chief character manifested by the rishi, NArada. Even though he tried to do some good things, by accident, perhaps, he has been mainly infamous for creating mischief in all the known worlds. One of his chief weapons which, to the atmost distress of both gods and men, he employed very successfully in these activities was accusing with which, of course, went such other things as blaming. Here, let us note the Dravidian Tulu word: dUruni, of which the name NArada is an inverted and substituted form. This word dUruni precisely denotes: to accuse, complain, blame, reproach, censure, for alll of which NArada is infamous. It is interesting to note the meanings of the related words in the same group (DED. #3397): to slander, publish abroad ill-reports, defame, tell a lie, report evil of others, mention the name of a person, cite, reproach, praise, honour, to cause to abuse (and in the noun form:) information laid against a person, an accuser, and a tale bearer! This certainly looks like NArada's resume. Best regards. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com > well, let the group of words listed under DED. #3397 From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Mon Sep 1 09:41:49 1997 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 09:41:49 +0000 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227032010.23782.1095894046062972171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 1 Sep 97 at 16:03, John A Grimes wrote: > Would anyone know the title of the book about the Dalai Lama's conversations > with Jewish diaspora members? Happens to be on my desk: Kamenetz, Rodger. The Jew in the Lotus: A Poet's Rediscovery of Jewish Identity in Buddhist India. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1994. Lance ------------------------ Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu From grimesj at pilot.msu.edu Mon Sep 1 14:58:31 1997 From: grimesj at pilot.msu.edu (John A Grimes) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 10:58:31 -0400 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227032007.23782.12444536769572476869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone know the title of the book about the Dalai Lama's conversations with Jewish diaspora members? Thanks in advance John From davidi at mail.wizard.net Mon Sep 1 16:21:48 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 12:21:48 -0400 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227032008.23782.1869115938613218772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Grimes asks, > Would anyone know the title of the book about the Dalai Lama's > conversations with Jewish diaspora members? I think you must mean *The Jew and The Lotus* (or maybe The Lotus and The Jew?) -- I tried a search at Amazon.com just now, and (surprisingly) did not find it (under either form). Have not read this, but have heard some discussion of it; I've the impression it was published in the U.S. perhaps 2-3 years ago(?); the title of course involves (what is arguably typically American baby boomer generation) wordplay on the customary translation of the pervasive Tibetan mantram, Om mani padme hum (where "jewel" & "jew" are confounded) . . . Sorry I don't recall the author's name. d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From roheko at classic.msn.com Mon Sep 1 14:44:57 1997 From: roheko at classic.msn.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 14:44:57 +0000 Subject: AW: dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227032027.23782.5691671110495793366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Compare Jain. Life in ancient India as depicted in the Jain canon p. 45 with reference to Arthashastra: It has been stated that a Brahmana who had committed certain crimes should be branded with an image of a dog (sunaga) or a kundiya pot on his head.. Heiner -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk im Auftrag von Laurie Patton Gesendet am: Freitag, 29. August 1997 02:59 An: Members of the list Betreff: Re: dog's corpse See Taittiriya Brahmana 3.8.4.2 for relevant passage, which gives its own interpretation of the ritual act. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton + Dept. of Religion + Emory University + Atlanta, GA 30322 + PH: 404-727-5177 + FAX: 404-272-7597 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > At 12:26 PM 8/28/97 BST, you wrote: > >Dear Indologists, > > Louis Renou, in L'Inde classique, I, ' 726, says, before the > >azvamedha, must be throwed a dog's corpse under the horse's legs. > > Does anyone know the meaning of this act ? > > Namaste, > >Dominique > > > >Dominique THILLAUD > >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > > > > > > > > > > > From lasic at oeaw.ac.at Mon Sep 1 13:02:01 1997 From: lasic at oeaw.ac.at (Horst Lasic) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 15:02:01 +0200 Subject: gandhavattvavat Message-ID: <161227032005.23782.8307923903094630563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An early occurrence of the example gandhavattva is ZlokavArttika, anumAnapariccheda 86cd: nityA bhUr gandhavattvena syAd asAdhAraNas tv ayam Horst Lasic Vienna From hzhao at sas.upenn.edu Mon Sep 1 19:27:36 1997 From: hzhao at sas.upenn.edu (hzhao at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 15:27:36 -0400 Subject: Shaka and Samvat Era Message-ID: <161227032014.23782.16456337979901195478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I heard that the Shaka Era began in 78 CE, and that one converts from Shaka Era to CE by adding 78 or 79, depending on the month. But this will make, say July 78 CE, fall in year 0 of Shaka Era. Is this the case? Also when did the Samvat era begin and how should one convert between it and CE and BCE? Also, Caitanya Mahaprabhu is said to have appeared on the Purnima night of phalguna masa of 1407 Shaka Era, and I heard it is Feb 18, 1486. But the end of phalguna masa doesn't usually seem to occur that early. Another account is that it was the 23rd of phalguna masa. Does anyone have any authoritative source on this? Thanks, Chuck Zhao From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Sep 1 23:56:34 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 16:56:34 -0700 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032019.23782.15577597791223162062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:10 PM 9/1/97 BST, V. Keerthi Kumar wrote: > the episode concerning the supposed invasion by the supposed Aryans into >prehistoric India, and the supposed destruction they wreaked on the people of >the ancient Indian civilization usually referred to as the Indus Valley >Civilization... > All this has been proved to be baseless. All of this (and you include several issues) has certainly not been proved to be baseless. You say you prefer to stick to facts and not speculate, but that is precisely what you are doing here. This subject was debated a few months ago on this list as well as on the RISA-L list. It is also the subject of many publications. Such a general statement as the one you make can be very misleading to those who are not well informed. Best regards, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From DKumar6248 at aol.com Mon Sep 1 22:04:37 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 18:04:37 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032016.23782.14592693546415083055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the List, I have been receiving considerable email much of the contents of which involves speculation about why and how the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution occurred in the Dravidian language family. I would like to take this opportunity to respond to that here. But first, let me answer a frequent question asked about my other work. The Sumerians: Their True Identity and the Evidence for It, is not on the World Wide Web. This work, in two volumes, was essentially my manuscript (a 'rough note book') of well over a thousand pages which I published in a hurry. Even though the copies of the two volumes were placed with the copyright office and in the Library of Congress at the time of their publication (1988 and 1989), it was a desktop publication published with the intention of deriving material from it for my other works. Having noticed that this work, in spite of being a manuscript, did not get proper exposure, I decided to publish the derivative work on the World Wide Web, for the findings are considered by me to be important not only to the scholars of the Dravidian languages, but also to those of the Indo-Aryan languages, and beyond including the Hittitologists. Much of the material which is in this derivative work, is taken from these two volumes some of the contents of which I may choose to reedit and/or add more to it before republishing it. Regarding the speculation as to why this phenomenon is there in Dravidian, and how it started: In my endeavor to bring the findings to the attention of the concerned scholars, right from the beginning, it has been my guiding principle not to speculate on anything concerning this matter, but to state what is proven by the pertaining evidence, and further substantiated by it. The presence and operation of this linguistic phenomenon has been there from the infancy of theses languages, and this is clearly proven and sustained by the pertaining evidence. But I do not know how it started, for I do not have any evidence to answer that question. Even though what it is is clear, It may never be known how it started, and I do not want to speculate about it. I beleive that, at all cost, the temptation to speculate on any unknown aspect of knowledge must be sternly resisted, for speculations and projections which continue to be made are usually turned into theories which in their turn often find a place in newspapers, magazines, textbooks, encyclopedias, etc., and they have a tendency to stay there. A good example is the episode concerning the supposed invasion by the supposed Aryans into prehistoric India, and the supposed destruction they wreaked on the people of the ancient Indian civilization usually referred to as the Indus Valley Civilization, and this was repeated in all books even by the so-called historians.. All this has been proved to be baseless. In fact it should never have been surmised, taken for granted, and further propogated, for many scholars like M.S. Elphinstone (1841) had already testified in no unmistable terms that the Hindu scripture "..."is oppsed to their (Hindus) foreign origin...To say that it spread from a central point is an unwarranted assumption, and even to anlogy; for, emigration and civilization have not spread in a circle, but from east to west. Where, also, could the central point be, from which a language could spread over India, Greece, and Italy and yet leave Chaldea, Syria and Arabia untouched?" (History of India; brackets and omissions are mine). It should be noted that not knowing why and how or the inability to witness the phenomenon of inversion and substitution is no proof for the supposition that it is not there in Dravidian. Witnessing of this phenomenon with ease requires a good knowledge of a Dravidian language such as Kannada, and orientation in the cultural, religious, and other aspects of the greater Dravidian phenomenon. But it can be witnessed with the help of a Dravidian dictionary, and this has been proven in the above noted document published on the Web site. It is in order to make this point clear that numerous colloquial words which are extremely important in witnessing this phenomenon had to be left out, because they are not included in the dictionaries. It is also in the colloquial areas of the Dravidian languages that important phonetic correspondences which have been operating from very ancient times are to be observed. It is not only the existence and operation of this linguistic phenomenon in Dravidian, but also its aspect of extraordinary implications that this phenomenon has been responsible for, the magnitude of it which makes it magnificent. Best regards. May God give peace to Princess Diana's soal. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From t.bhattacharya at ucl.ac.uk Mon Sep 1 18:05:09 1997 From: t.bhattacharya at ucl.ac.uk (Tanmoy Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 18:05:09 +0000 Subject: The SALON Newsletter Message-ID: <161227032012.23782.15451634785531426781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> the benifit of other SA related list members, hope it's of some use to some of you. Thanks. -- Tanmoy P.S. If you'd like to become a member of SALON, pl send an email request to amit.sood at blueskills.com ============================================================================= Dear SALON members, The first issue of The SALON Newsletter is coming out soon. We'll welcome (from members and non-members) 300-400 word notes for the following sections: (1) Work in Progress (related to SA Lgs) (2) Squib (small probs related to SA lgs) (3) Confce notices (SA Lgs) (4) Anything else outside these sections but related to SA Lingx DEADLINE: Sept 7, 1997 NOTE: So far, we've a list of 7 individuals who'll receive multiple copies for further distribution; countries include India, USA, Canada & Germany. If you're located outside these (but not UK) and would like to distribute copies within your region, please send me your mailing address. Please keep in mind that we've no funds at all (at present I bear all prodn and mailing costs) when asking for copies for distribn. For the second issue, we particularly welcome interviews (800-900 words) with senior linguists working (worked) with SA lgs to make their views accessible to the NewGen. If the word limit is too restricting, send us your piece anyway, we'll serialise it. Also, enclose (preferably) a B&W photo if poss. If you'd rather send your stuff by reg mail, here's the add: Tanmoy Bhattacharya Flat 12, 11 Endsleigh Gardens, London WC1H 0EH, UK Thanks! ============================================================================= From HFArnold at aol.com Mon Sep 1 23:40:15 1997 From: HFArnold at aol.com (HFArnold at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 19:40:15 -0400 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227032017.23782.5703008128967030647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/14/97 5:19:36 AM, John Powers wrote: <> Most of the replies to this question have suggested books about "devotion" (bhakti), rather than faith. Assuming that Mr. Powers student really is working on "the role of faith in Hinduism," then he might have a look at The Concept of SraddhA, by K. L. Seshagilre Rao, if he can find it. From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com Tue Sep 2 06:02:35 1997 From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 23:02:35 -0700 Subject: Ancient Indian Sciences Message-ID: <161227032024.23782.5658850200420408225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members Here goes a Sloka (couplet) from the Atharva Veda (one of the 4 Vedas - treatises on knowledge from ancient India) which embodies the true spirit of humanness expressed, not today, but four thousand years ago. We are the birds of the same nest, We may wear different skins, We may speak different languages, We may believe in different religions, We may belong to different cultures, Yet we share the same home - OUR EARTH. Born on the same planet Covered by the same skies Gazing at the same stars Breathing the same air We must learn to happily progress together Or miserably perish together, For man can live individually, But can survive only collectively It is this spirit of humanness that has been the undercurrent of existence in a part of the world known as India. This spirit has also prevailed in many other parts of the world where the right thinking of humankind has prevailed. In India, this spirit has found expression in the philosophy of non-violence, religious tolerance, renunciation - in non-temporal matters. In temporal matters, which is the subject of this book, it has found expression in achievements in all areas of science and technology. Achievements which did not remain limited to India alone, but were transmitted to many corners of our globe. These achievements are not just a matter of pride for Indians alone. They represent the triumph of the human mind and hence are a matter of pride for the human species irrespective of nationality. For more info on the progress made in Science and Technology in the period 1000 B.C. to 1000 A.D. in ancient India visit the REVISED web edition of the book "India's Contribution to the World's Culture" at the following free site: "http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/" Regards Sudheer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From DKumar6248 at aol.com Tue Sep 2 03:19:39 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 23:19:39 -0400 Subject: misdirected note Message-ID: <161227032020.23782.1782615297979649526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the List, Earlier to day I may have addressed the right note to the wrong address, or the wrong note to the right address. In either case it was a mistake, mine. Sorry. From DKumar6248 at aol.com Tue Sep 2 05:58:12 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 01:58:12 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032022.23782.17741214142777033862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The entire paragraph from a posting I made at 11:10 PM 9/1/97 BST reads as follows: I beleive, at all cost, the temptation to speculate on any unknown aspect of knowledge must be sternly resisted, for speculations and projections which continue to be made are usually turned into theories which in their turn often find a place in newspapers, magazines, textbooks, encyclopedias, etc., and they have a tendency to stay there. A good example is the episode concerning the supposed invasion by the supposed Aryans into prehistoric India, and the supposed destruction they wreaked on the people of the ancient Indian civilization usually referred to as the Indus Valley Civilization, and this was repeated in all books even by the so-called historians. All this has been proved to be baseless. In fact it should never have been surmised, taken for granted, and further propogated, for many scholars like M.S. Elphinstone (1841) had already testified in no unmistakable terms that the Hindu scripture "..."is opposed to their (Hindus) foreign origin...To say that it spread from a central point is an unwarranted assumption, and even to analogy; for, emigration and civilization have not spread in a circle, but from east to west. Where, also, could the central point be, from which a language could spread over India, Greece, and Italy and yet leave Chaldea, Syria and Arabia untouched? (History of India; brackets and omissions are mine)." In support of what is stated above concerning the supposed Aryan invasion and the destruction they are supposed to have wreaked on the people of the ancient Indian civilization, I have to rely on such modern authorities' learned opinions as Professor G. F. Dales (former head of the department of Southasian Archaeology and Anthropology, Berkeley), who in his famous The Mythical Massacre at Mohenjo-daro (1964), incredulously asks the important question: "What of these skeletal remains that have taken on such undeserved importance?" He further states that after nine years of excavations at Mohenjo-daro, in as vast an area as three miles radius, 37 skeletons or parts thereof, were found which could be, with some certainty, attributed to the period of this civilization. He makes it a point to state that they were all found not within the area of the fortified citadel where one could expect a defence. He pointedly asks where are the supposed burned fortresses, pieces of armour, weapons, arrow heads, the smashed chariots, and the bodies of the invaders and the defenders? He underscored his opinion by saying that in spite of the extensive excavations at the largest sites belonging to Harappan area "there is not a single bit of evidence" which can be attributed to an armed conflict, conquest, and destruction of these places on the supposed large scale invasion of the Aryans. I would rely on this opinion of an esteemed archaeologist on this matter and that is what I have done. Another modern scholar, Colin Reinfrew, a Cambridge Professor of archaeology, in his well known work Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, among other things, flatly states that as far as he can see : "...When Wheeler speaks of the Aryan invasion of the land of the Seven Rivers, the Punjab, he has no warranty at all..." He further says that as far as he can see, there is nothing in the Rigvedic Hymns which demonstrates that the Vedic-speaking people were intrusive to the area. He flatly states: "This comes rather from a historical assumption about the 'coming' of the Indo-Europeans." In my paragraph noted above, that is exactly what I was referring to: assumptions, and I would rely on the opinions of these recent scholars and archaeologists on this matter. I suppose, no matter what, there is always going to be some who would like to beleive in what they beleive, and express that beleif in whichever fashion they choose, especially if that happens to be not partaken by others. I also suppose, there is nothing wrong with that. One is entitled to ones own opinion, I suppose. There we go again, suppositions! Best regards. yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Tue Sep 2 16:28:04 1997 From: beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 12:28:04 -0400 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227032030.23782.4584954727978857448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The book is titled THE JEW IN THE LOTUS. Don't have the author's name immediately on tap. Alf Hiltebeitel On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, John A Grimes wrote: > Would anyone know the title of the book about the Dalai Lama's conversations > with Jewish diaspora members? > Thanks in advance > John > From DKumar6248 at aol.com Tue Sep 2 16:59:04 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 12:59:04 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032032.23782.4858618267897021049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, I have been asked (one of the inquirers - spelled thus in U.S.A. - being from Germany) if it is permitted for a scholar to make a hard copy of the document listed at < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > for non-commercial purpose, and I wish to notify the members of the Indology List that until further notice about this matter which, if needed, I will announce on the site of this List, it is permitted for a scholar to make one hard copy of it for non-commercial purpose. Also, as I have already notified, small statements from the above noted document can be quoted for non-commercial purpose. All the rest of copyright articles still apply. V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From jage at loc.gov Tue Sep 2 17:07:53 1997 From: jage at loc.gov (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 13:07:53 -0400 Subject: question (fwd) Message-ID: <161227032033.23782.8278987471645650184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tuesday, Sept. 6, 1997 There is: Kamenetz, Rodger, 1950- The Jew in the lotus: a poet's rediscovery of jewish identity in Buddhist India. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1994. 304ppp. ISBN: 0-06-064576-8, $20.00 US. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:35:20 BST From: Alf Hiltebeitel Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk To: Members of the list Subject: Re: question The book is titled THE JEW IN THE LOTUS. Don't have the author's name immediately on tap. Alf Hiltebeitel On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, John A Grimes wrote: > Would anyone know the title of the book about the Dalai Lama's conversations > with Jewish diaspora members? > Thanks in advance > John > From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Tue Sep 2 11:17:59 1997 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 13:17:59 +0200 Subject: The elephant's footprints Message-ID: <161227032025.23782.17372399619746510365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A collegue of mine has come accross the following passage in one of Clifford Geertz' (American anthropologist) latest essays: "A sage is squatted before a real elephant that is standing right in front of him. The sage is saying, 'This is not an elephant.' Only later, as the elephant turns and begins to lumber away, does a doubt begin to arise in the sage's mind about whether there might not be an elephant around after all. Finally, when the elephant has altogether disappeared from view, the sage looks down at the footprints the beast has left behind and declares with certainty, 'An elephant was here.'" (Cl. Geertz, _After the Fact_, Cambridge 1995, p.167). The story is supposed to be taken from an episode in Kalidasa' Sakuntala. My colleque refers to the following translation in Barbara S. Miller, _Theater of Memory: The Plays of Kalidasa_, Columbia University Press: New York 1984, p.174, where the king says, among other things: "When I saw the ring, I remembered that I had married his daughter. This is all so strange! Like one who doubts the existence of an elephant who walks in front of him but feels convinced by seeing footprints, my mind has taken strange turns." Now, what my collegue wants to know is whether this simile of the sage and the elephant is a reference to a common known story, which might exist in more details in other texts, and in this case, which texts?, or, if it only an isolated metaphor in Kalidasa's play. Can the Kalidasa experts help? Mikael Aktor, research assistent New address: Study of Religions, University of Aarhus, DK-8000 ?rhus C, Denmark. E-mail: aktor at teologi.aau.dk Or private: Bangertsgade 9 st tv, DK 2200 Copenhagen N, Denmark. E-mail: aktor at post8.tele.dk From ARB at maestro.com Tue Sep 2 17:52:43 1997 From: ARB at maestro.com (ARB) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 13:52:43 -0400 Subject: wanted: Coomaraswamy (Boston MFA) titles Message-ID: <161227032037.23782.2711416927093690277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May we inquire if any list members have available for sale A. Coomaraswamy's catalogues of the Boston MFA dating from the 1920's. If so, please contact ASIAN RARE BOOKS(NYC) which needs these volumes for university libraries. Thank you, Stephen Feldman, Asian Rare Books http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Tue Sep 2 20:25:42 1997 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 15:25:42 -0500 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032039.23782.796185856959923062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Now that we've beaten the dog to death, what about the cat?) In a short story that is used by many of us Hindi teachers in the intermediate level, "PrAya"scit" by Bhagavati Charan Varma, a cat is apparently killed near the beginning of the story. The pandit, who is fat and obviously trying to milk this one for all it's worth, tells the guilty family that the killing of a cat is as bad as brahminicide. Did he, or the Hindi author, just make that up? Is there a source for that in nIti"sAstra or dharma"sAstra somewhere? Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt PS: I do remember asking this one before, but the members of the list always change, so please forgive the repeat. RAH Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za Tue Sep 2 15:13:47 1997 From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 17:13:47 +0200 Subject: FWD: ITRANS to SKT Message-ID: <161227032029.23782.2516098648247212004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Himanshu requested this message to be forwarded from the Sanskrit list. Regards, Charles Wikner. wikner at nacdh4.nac.ac.zxa From: pota at adfa.oz.au (Himanshu R. Pota) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:07:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: ITRANS to SKT ## priyamitraaNi##, I have written a small program to convert ITRANS encoding to SKT encoding. ## ahaM aaiiTraansaat eskeTii akSharapraNaaliyaam parivartanaaya eka.m laghu-yantra-kramam alikham| ## You can pick it up from: ## tasya praapti sthaanam asti ## ftp://evans.ee.adfa.oz.au/pub/staff/hrp itx2skt.zip (file name). Please write to me for improvements or if you find it difficult to use the program. ## unnatikR^ite kaThinataayaa.h vaa sarve kR^ipayaa maam likhatu## Today I read that new people have difficulty in using Sanskrit with computers. To them I recommend itranslator1-1. You can pick that also from the above mentioned ftp site. ##adya ahaM apaTham naviinalokaaH sanskR^itam sangaNitreNa saha prayuktum kaThinataam anubhavanti| taan ahaM itranslator1-1 yantra-kramasya upayogam kuru iti vadaami| tat yantra-kramam api upari likhitam sthaane asti|## Himanshu From DKumar6248 at aol.com Tue Sep 2 21:51:44 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 17:51:44 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032040.23782.13477040935873767678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear memebrs of the List, I am writing this as soon as I saw the note mentioned below. Dominik Wujastyk (in his note posted at 18:28:43 BST today) mentions without noting or elaborating a Paninian sutra of which I am completely unaware of. I wish I knew; I had to do it the hard way. Also would somebody enlighten me as to why the Dravidian languages (which have been considered as the borrowing languages) have not been taken into consideration in this context? Why we failed to realize the important meanings of a number of words, names, etc., which the realization of the existence and operation of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution would have revealed to us, if Panini had already stated a sutra? Would it not have helped our projects which we undertake in order to define and elaborate such words and/or texts. I am not sure if we are looking any more intelligent than before. Beleive me, I would like to see us all rich, with or without sleek leather briefcases, if only we could! Thanks in advance. Best regards. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Sep 2 17:25:25 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 18:25:25 +0100 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032035.23782.8366003286743966106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 DKumar6248 at aol.com wrote: [...] > and I wish > to notify the members of the Indology List that until further notice about > this matter which, if needed, I will announce on the site of this List, it is > permitted for a scholar to make one hard copy of it for non-commercial > purpose. Also, as I have already notified, small statements from the above > noted document can be quoted for non-commercial purpose. Sigh! Wouldn't it be *great* if indological writings had any commercial value whatsoever that was worth protecting! The above message gave me a wonderful fleeting vision of industral espionage, bidding wars between great corporations, and seductive blandishments offered by dark-suited emmissiaries from the military-industrial complex, all focussed on a sleek, leather briefcase containing a single sheet of A4 describing the workings of a Paninian sutra. If only. :-) All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From DKumar6248 at aol.com Tue Sep 2 22:45:55 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 18:45:55 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032042.23782.9288037537667536724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Folks, Looks like I made the statement too technical without the least intention of doing so. Sorry, if I offended any body by it. Lets relax, and enjoy. Please, somebody say amen, hallelujah, or something like that! Thanks. Best regards. Yours Keerthi - V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com From roheko at classic.msn.com Tue Sep 2 23:02:09 1997 From: roheko at classic.msn.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 23:02:09 +0000 Subject: maNi Message-ID: <161227032044.23782.10922280553459705188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, in Prakrit literatur the term poyaya (mentioned together with mAna = measure and therefor to explain as weight < Skt. pautava) is combined with maNi-Adi as bahuvrihi. In other words the term poyaya is characterized with maNi etc. Does someone know the relation between maNi (pearls) and weights? Moreover I need examples about wares which got weighed by use of a boat (pota) in the water. Thanks Heiner From DKumar6248 at aol.com Wed Sep 3 04:36:18 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 00:36:18 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Aasanga Message-ID: <161227032047.23782.2307933802144860735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the List, While I wait for the enlightment I asked for regarding a few questions in my posting today, and while we consider NArada's resume which he submitted yesterday in my posting, I thought I would take a leaf from my work book, and write a note about another rishi Aasanga, who was the son of Playoga. This rishi, according to the information about him, got into a predicament: the gods cursed him to become a woman. He appealed to another rishi Medhatithi about this condition, and Medatithi helped him get his male sex back. Aasanga was pleased to no end. He gave great gifts to his benefactor, and addressed to him some verses of praise which are in the Rig-veda to this day. It is thought that this legend conceals that the author of these verses attributed to Aasanga was also a woman, or at the least, a eunuch, and not a man at all. In Dravidian Kannada, the word: hengasu, precisely denotes: female (DED. #4395), and the name Aasanga, (the bearer of which was cursed by the gods to become a woman), is an inverted and substituted form of this Kannada word: hengasu. Again, by realizing the existence and operation of the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution, we have realized that the legend concerning Aasanga is not an idle one. I do not think we can dispute the fact that Indology is getting to be more interesting. Best regards. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com >. From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Sep 3 00:04:14 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 02:04:14 +0200 Subject: Ancient Indian Sciences Message-ID: <161227032045.23782.16057747143614989617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 8:10 +0200 2/09/97, sudheer birodkar wrote: >Here goes a Sloka (couplet) from the Atharva Veda > >We are the birds of the same nest, >We may wear different skins, >We may speak different languages, >We may believe in different religions, >We may belong to different cultures, >Yet we share the same home - OUR EARTH. > >Born on the same planet >Covered by the same skies >Gazing at the same stars >Breathing the same air >We must learn to happily progress together >Or miserably perish together, >For man can live individually, >But can survive only collectively Fine! can you give the reference or the original text ? Thanks in advance, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thompson at jlc.net Wed Sep 3 15:04:16 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 11:04:16 -0400 Subject: The elephant's footprints Message-ID: <161227032048.23782.515140619999339124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This passage is also discussed by Jerome Bruner in his _Acts of Meaning_ [Cambridge MA 1991, p.150]. The source for this ref. to 'Sakuntala' is David Shulman [in a personal communication cited by Bruner]. The exact reference is Sak. 7.31. The point of this passage seems to be that just as the elephant's footprint is an index [a sign] of the elephant, so Sakuntala's ring is an index [sign] of her, reminding DuSyanta of all that he had forgotten [see the preceding stanza]. I am aware of two parallal passages from Buddhist sources. The first is the well-known tale of the elephant and the blind men [UdAna 6.4.66-69]. The second is a more closely related and more interesting passage from the Milindapan~ha 5.24.4. Here Nagasena is attempting to persuade the sceptical Milinda that the existence of the Buddha can be known "by means of inference" [anumAna]: "As men seeing the footprint of an elephant-king can judge by inference 'How great his size must be!' So when they see the footprint of the elephant of men, the Buddha, the wise one, upon the path that men have trod, they know by inference: 'How glorious the Buddha was!'" This passage is discussed in _Indo-Iranian Journal_ 38, 1995 [pp.12-13]. Hope this helps, George Thompson >Dear list members, > >A collegue of mine has come accross the following passage in one of >Clifford Geertz' (American anthropologist) latest essays: > >"A sage is squatted before a real elephant that is standing right in >front of him. The sage is saying, 'This is not an elephant.' Only later, >as the elephant turns and begins to lumber away, does a doubt begin to >arise in the sage's mind about whether there might not be an elephant >around after all. Finally, when the elephant has altogether disappeared >from view, the sage looks down at the footprints the beast has left >behind and declares with certainty, 'An elephant was here.'" (Cl. Geertz, >_After the Fact_, Cambridge 1995, p.167). > >The story is supposed to be taken from an episode in Kalidasa' Sakuntala. >My colleque refers to the following translation in Barbara S. Miller, >_Theater of Memory: The Plays of Kalidasa_, Columbia University Press: >New York 1984, p.174, where the king says, among other things: > >"When I saw the ring, I remembered that I had married his daughter. This >is all so strange! Like one who doubts the existence of an elephant who >walks in front of him but feels convinced by seeing footprints, my mind >has taken strange turns." > >Now, what my collegue wants to know is whether this simile of the sage and >the elephant is a reference to a common known story, which might exist in >more details in other texts, and in this case, which texts?, or, if it >only an isolated metaphor in Kalidasa's play. > >Can the Kalidasa experts help? > >Mikael Aktor, research assistent > >New address: >Study of Religions, University of Aarhus, DK-8000 ?rhus C, Denmark. >E-mail: aktor at teologi.aau.dk > >Or private: >Bangertsgade 9 st tv, DK 2200 Copenhagen N, Denmark. >E-mail: aktor at post8.tele.dk From thakarj at box-t.nih.gov Wed Sep 3 17:29:30 1997 From: thakarj at box-t.nih.gov (Jay Thakar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 13:29:30 -0400 Subject: Any interest? Message-ID: <161227032052.23782.13914604106824324904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Chris: Tell me how to get this special issue? Jay From thakarj at box-t.nih.gov Wed Sep 3 18:00:16 1997 From: thakarj at box-t.nih.gov (Jay Thakar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 14:00:16 -0400 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032054.23782.1100055314568514483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Bob: About your story of the cat, I do not have a classic reference. However, as a child growing up in India, we were told not to bother a cat. If one does bother it then one has to pay a golden hair for every hair that is damaged. I think this may be said to support the idea of AHINSA (not hurting any living being). Jay. P.S. Interesting to know thatU of manitoba has studies in Indology. I graduated from this university in 1973(biochemistry). From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 15:19:16 1997 From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 16:19:16 +0100 Subject: Any interest? Message-ID: <161227032050.23782.7333350450588277849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I noticed this today and am passing it on in case it is of interest to any subscribers. Chris India Today 50th Anniversary Special Issue http://www.india-today.com/itoday/18081997/index.html Home Page http://www.india-today.com/ India recently celebrated its 50th anniversary of independence from Britain, and to honor the occasion, this well known weekly magazine devoted a special issue to the subject. This issue presents a state of the nation India Today-ORG-MARG poll of over 12,000 that discussed nine topics, including morality, India and Pakistan, and the economy. There is also a feature on three famous protest walks led by Ghandi, views of the New Delhi based Center for Policy Research on the shape of India in the year 2047, views of 35 people on what it means to be Indian, essays by Salman Rushdie, Shahid Amin, and Upamanyu Chatterjee, and a photo section. The India Today home page contains a connection to India Today, as well as six other Living Media India Limited publications. [JS] ------------------------------------------------------------ Chris Wooff (C.Wooff at liv.ac.uk, ....mcsun!uknet!liv!C.Wooff) Sent with Simeon Version 4.1.2 Build 32 From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Wed Sep 3 23:10:30 1997 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 19:10:30 -0400 Subject: epic marriage Message-ID: <161227041269.23782.7146889903467215436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marriages between uncles (mother's brother, not father's) and nieces are also common in the south. In fact, one of my classmates, an Iyengar girl married her mom's brother not too long ago (approx. 10 yrs). sujatha >> >> > >Men marrying daughters of paternal aunts or maternal uncles are not only >very common in South India but are preffered (atleast till recently). They >are slightly on the decline now because of the spread of the knowledge >of the bad effects of inbreading. > >regards, > >sarma. > From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Wed Sep 3 23:17:46 1997 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 19:17:46 -0400 Subject: epic marriage Message-ID: <161227041271.23782.12506498413376928450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marriages between uncles (mother's brother, not father's) and nieces are also common in the south. In fact, one of my classmates, an Iyengar girl married her mom's brother not too long ago (approx. 10 yrs). sujatha -----Original Message----- From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 12:28 PM Subject: Re: epic marriage >At 06:43 AM 9/1/98 +0200, you wrote: >>Dear Indologists, >> I have a request about a marriage in the MBh, between arjuna and >>subhadrA, the kRSNa's sister. A very important one: by it the continuity of >>the lineage will be assured with abhimanyu. >> But vasudeva, the subhadra's father was the brother of kuntI, the >>arjuna's mother, and hence the wife and husband were very close relatives. >> Is such a marriage (between first crossed cousins) a legal one? >> If not, the fact that zUra (biological father of subhadrA and >>kRSNa) gave his just born daughter to kuntibhoja, son of his paternal aunt, >>making him the legal father of kuntI, could make the marriage to be legal >>(between third cousins) >> > >Men marrying daughters of paternal aunts or maternal uncles are not only >very common in South India but are preffered (atleast till recently). They >are slightly on the decline now because of the spread of the knowledge >of the bad effects of inbreading. > >regards, > >sarma. > From athr at loc.gov Thu Sep 4 01:37:37 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 21:37:37 -0400 Subject: Tobacco -Reply Message-ID: <161227032073.23782.14256931630419935455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P.K. Gode has an article on early mentions of tobacco in India in one of his books. Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Sep 3 21:11:15 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 23:11:15 +0200 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Aasanga Message-ID: <161227032056.23782.16686948651510155498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 6:39 +0200 3/09/97, DKumar6248 at aol.com wrote: > > I thought I would take a leaf from my work book, and >write a note about another rishi Aasanga, who was the son of Playoga. This >rishi, according to the information about him, got into a predicament: the >gods cursed him to become a woman. He appealed to another rishi Medhatithi >about this condition, and Medatithi helped him get his male sex back. Aasanga >was pleased to no end. He gave great gifts to his benefactor, and addressed >to him some verses of praise which are in the Rig-veda to this day. It is >thought that this legend conceals that the author of these verses attributed >to Aasanga was also a woman, or at the least, a eunuch, and not a man at all. >In Dravidian Kannada, the word: hengasu, precisely denotes: female (DED. >#4395), and the name Aasanga, (the bearer of which was cursed by the gods to >become a woman), is an inverted and substituted form of this Kannada word: >hengasu. Again, by realizing the existence and operation of the linguistic >phenomenon of inversion and substitution, we have realized that the legend >concerning Aasanga is not an idle one. I do not think we can dispute the fact >that Indology is getting to be more interesting. Best regards. Till now, I refrain to comment the 'Dravidian cryptography', because I don't know any word of Dravidian. But this mail is very astounding! 1) We know very few about Aasanga who appears just in few slokas of RV VIII, 1. The Hymn and the comment of Sayana give just the impression he was impotent and that prayers of his wife restore his virility. But the story is actually unknown and the romance of Mr Kumar is purely speculative, just sustained by an isolated passage of the Zaankhaayana Zrauta Suutra (XVI.11.17) where zaazvatii is taken for a woman's name. Aasanga is not the better example of a woman! 2) Aasanga and hengasu are very hard to connect, even with a permutation: what about the 'h' and the vowels ? 3) The joke of connecting words with few common phonems is too easy to be a proof. Choose any languages at random, statistics will show you thousand examples of such links. Just two: the Greek 'gunaa' (related to vedic 'gnaa') is 'woman', the popular French 'gonzesse' is 'woman': much better concordance with hengasu than Aasanga! I don't intend to begin a debate (I'm not a specialist of Dravidian), that was just my opinion. Regards, Dominique PS 1: Renfrew's theories are perhaps true, perhaps not. Mallory has other theories. PS 2: Not buried, a skelet can't be conserved for a long time. No skelets were found in destroyed Minoan and Mycenian palaces. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 4 07:46:10 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 00:46:10 -0700 Subject: Ancient Indian Sciences Message-ID: <161227032057.23782.14345098814401426379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you please provide the exact reference for this quote? Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 07:11 AM 9/2/97 BST, Sudheer Birodkar wrote: >Dear List Members > >Here goes a Sloka (couplet) from the Atharva Veda >(one of the 4 Vedas - treatises on knowledge from ancient India) >which embodies the true spirit of humanness expressed, not today, >but four thousand years ago. > >We are the birds of the same nest, >We may wear different skins, >We may speak different languages, >We may believe in different religions, >We may belong to different cultures, >Yet we share the same home - OUR EARTH. > >Born on the same planet >Covered by the same skies >Gazing at the same stars >Breathing the same air >We must learn to happily progress together >Or miserably perish together, >For man can live individually, >But can survive only collectively > From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 10:28:05 1997 From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 03:28:05 -0700 Subject: Ancient Indian Sciences Message-ID: <161227032061.23782.9202056949649490466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Luis Gonzalez-Reimann, This quote comes from the series "Sacred Books of the East" translated by Max Muller. The copy I had referred to was borrowed from the Asiatic Society's Library at Mumbai. This sloka has also appeared in a few other publications. One of them is a publication by the Swaminarayan Mandir, 115-119, Brenfield Road, Neasden, London NW10 8JP, UK. Regards Sudheer >From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Sep 4 01:04:16 1997 >Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by mail.liv.ac.uk > with Local-SMTP (PP); Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:03:22 +0100 >Message-Id: <199709040746.AAA13520 at uclink.berkeley.edu> >Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:03:11 BST >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >To: Members of the list >Subject: Re: Ancient Indian Sciences >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Could you please provide the exact reference for this quote? > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >University of California, Berkeley > > >At 07:11 AM 9/2/97 BST, Sudheer Birodkar wrote: >>Dear List Members >> >>Here goes a Sloka (couplet) from the Atharva Veda >>(one of the 4 Vedas - treatises on knowledge from ancient India) >>which embodies the true spirit of humanness expressed, not today, >>but four thousand years ago. >> >>We are the birds of the same nest, >>We may wear different skins, >>We may speak different languages, >>We may believe in different religions, >>We may belong to different cultures, >>Yet we share the same home - OUR EARTH. >> >>Born on the same planet >>Covered by the same skies >>Gazing at the same stars >>Breathing the same air >>We must learn to happily progress together >>Or miserably perish together, >>For man can live individually, >>But can survive only collectively >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From davidi at mail.wizard.net Thu Sep 4 13:07:25 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 09:07:25 -0400 Subject: The elephant's footprints Message-ID: <161227032068.23782.8461581170652378450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mikael Aktor quotes from an essay by Clifford Geertz: >"A sage is squatted before a real elephant that is standing right >in front of him. The sage is saying, 'This is not an elephant.' this is spinning out on a small tangent: I should like to point out the interesting resonance of this phrase with regard to the important surrealist painting by Rene Magritte depicting an ordinary smoking pipe, and bearing the caption (in French): "This is not a pipe." The passage from Kalidasa seems to add one further layer to many ways of reading / approaching that wry painted text. Mikael also wrote, >Now, what my collegue wants to know is whether this simile of the >sage and the elephant is a reference to a common known story, which >might exist in more details in other texts, and in this case, which >texts?, or, if it only an isolated metaphor in Kalidasa's play. and George Thompson usefully replied, > . . . this ref. to 'Sakuntala' . . . The exact reference is Sak. 7.31. > > The point of this passage seems to be that just as the elephant's > footprint is an index [a sign] of the elephant, so Sakuntala's ring > is an index [sign] of her, reminding DuSyanta of all that he had > forgotten [see the preceding stanza]. Just to spin out one more -- possibly slightly more apt -- tangent, besides the question of origins for the elephant simile, your friend might also wish to consider prototypes of the ring episode itself. I allude here to the well-known, a dramatically crucial episode in the Ramayana where Sita -- emprisoned within the walled garden of Ravana's palace on Lankha -- hears from aloft the sweet voice of Hanuman (whom she had theretofore not acquainted), who claims that he is an emissary from her husband Rama. To prove this claim, he shows her the ring from Rama's own finger -- beholding which, Sita is at once assured that this is indeed a genuine message from her lord. (I know this passage based on readings of Rajagopalachari's abridged version of the Valmiki classic -- but am sure any number of list members could supply a more exact & primary citation, if of use.) I would assume that Kalidasa probably had that classical episode somewhat in mind (i.e., it exists in the background, antecedent, albeit transformed); or would, at least, propose that it seems to serve as a prototype for the use of the ring in Sakuntala >"When I saw the ring, I remembered that I had married his daughter. Interestingly, the roles (& direction of the memory-confirming ring: from wife to king rather than from king to wife) are reversed. regards, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From davidi at mail.wizard.net Thu Sep 4 13:18:31 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 09:18:31 -0400 Subject: Tobacco Message-ID: <161227032070.23782.5733783738216113951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Poornima Kirloskar asks, > Did the Harappans smoke? If so, what did they smoke? Beedis, opium? > Was tobacco introduced to India by the Europeans? I don't know about the first question, but as for the introduction of tobacco, I have read from what seemed a good book on the history of tobacco smoking (purchased in a cigar shop). I regret not having the volume on hand, and cannot provide any instant citation. The book included information that perhaps belongs to the popular wisdom, but did seem to have much detail and carried what I felt to be a sense of some proper scholarship. According to my recollection, it was clearly suggested that tobacco smoking originated exclusively with Native Americans, and thus was, of course, not introduced to Europe (let alone Asia / India) until after the voyage of Columbus. I believe it's commonly asserted that the same holds for various other botanicals, such as tomatos and chilis. Tangentially, this seems rather interesting with regard to current customs & practices of Indian cuisine -- suggesting that mrch masala isn't so perennial as one might assume from current plates. The tobacco volume also referred to the faddish popularization of tobacco smoking in Europe -- where it was initially (and for a good while) viewed as a salubrious, indeed highly beneficial practice. In my view, there might be more to that than current vogue suggests -- thinking, here, of the non-inhaling forms of tobacco smoking (pipe & cigar), as distinguished from the noxious effects of cigarettes. but I run afield . . . d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Sep 4 16:26:39 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 09:26:39 -0700 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032079.23782.9214677779870711182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, David R. Israel wrote: > after the voyage of Columbus. I believe it's commonly asserted that > the same holds for various other botanicals, such as tomatos and > chilis. Tangentially, this seems rather interesting with regard to > current customs & practices of Indian cuisine -- suggesting that mrch > masala isn't so perennial as one might assume from current plates. Indeed. Among strictly observant south Indian families, chilies are avoided in the food prepared for the annual SrAddha rituals. Pepper is used instead. Vidyasankar From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 4 08:33:09 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 09:33:09 +0100 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Aasanga Message-ID: <161227032059.23782.17277890253856233303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > 2) Aasanga and hengasu are very hard to connect, even with a > permutation: what about the 'h' and the vowels ? Dear Dominique, Surely you are forgetting the fundamental rule of historical philology: "consonants count for little, vowels for nothing". All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From mm383 at columbia.edu Thu Sep 4 14:04:38 1997 From: mm383 at columbia.edu (Mary McGee) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 10:04:38 -0400 Subject: Celebrations of Milleniums Message-ID: <161227032071.23782.11313667188195352488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In some recent consultancy work I have been doing on Indian calendars and eras, I was asked a question which I do not have the answer to and thus share with you to see if anyone out there has some answer to: does anyone know if the milleniums in any one of the many different Indian eras, have been marked (historically) with celebrations, fanfare, etc, or any of the kind of attention that the upcoming common era millenium is being marked. Thanks (please give references if possible) Mary McGee, Columbia University From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Thu Sep 4 12:03:02 1997 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 13:03:02 +0100 Subject: Crypto-graphy, crypto-phantasy, crypto-creativity Message-ID: <161227032063.23782.16387272436935649850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:11:05 -0400 (EDT), DKumar6248 at aol.com started a discussion on "Dravidian Cryptography" which has yielded stimulating results with regard to well-known names from Indian antiquity. In the words of D.Kumar: >>> Indology is going to be much more interesting. In fact, I believe, it is never going to be the same again. One of the reasons for this is that numerous words, terms, names, etc., which occur in the ancient Indian texts, including the Vedas, are the result of the operation of this phenomenon [viz. of Dravidian Cryptography]. To put it concisely, they have been encoded by the employment of this linguistic technique of inversion and substitution. <> My impression is that the results of these techniques of inversion and substitution are of far greater heuristic value than those issuing from the laborous methods of etymological "Wortstudien". Moreover, since modern philosophy of science tells us that the researching subject should be taken into account in a full evaluation of any scientific method, it is important to note that these techniques can be expected to be of considerable therapeutic value for the researcher. Some lingering doubts remain, however, with regard to the stock of basic terms, the Dravidian lexemes, which according to some, as we all know, are all direct or indirect vikrutis of Vedic Sanskrut. Although the latter view is difficult to prove or disprove, it would seem reasonable to take guidance from the Sanskrut language itself and its infinite semantic potential (Shakti) if we deal with texts from the great Vedic tradition from Samhitaas to Mahaabhaarata and Puraanas. What is more, those who want to proceed in this direction, need not start with a difficult period of trial and error, since some great scholars have already shown the way: I think especially of N.V. Thadani's inspired translation of the Miimaansaa suutras with highly enlightening introduction (Mimansa: The Secret texts of the Sacred Books of the Hindus, Delhi, Bharati Research Institute, 1952). Some excerpts from Thadani's work: We can divide Krshna into K, r, sh, na, when its meaning would be: "(na) intellect associated with (sh) mind, (r) the senses of action, and (k) Nature or Prakrti." Krshna accordingly refers to intelligence in its most perfect conception as associated with the mind, action (or the senses of action) and the objects of nature. (p. cclxxiv, note). Vasishtha literally means Vasu-ishta (Va, su, ishtha) -- "(ishtha) the highest or the best (su) born of (va) Nature or Prakrti;" and so refers to the intellect, as the first or highest "born" of Nature. Viswamitra would mean "(mitra) intellect (viswa) in its universal, comprehensive form;" and this . . . is closely allied to the mind. Bhrgu -- Bh, r, g, u means "(u, g) the senses of knowledge and (r) the sense of action, associated with (bh) Nature." Since my initiation into Thadani's system is incomplete I have to refer all further queries to this book, at the same time hoping that the excerpts give an idea of the creative stimulus provided it, and that they suggest additional avenues of research for the methods propounded by D.Kumar. Jan Houben From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Thu Sep 4 12:08:54 1997 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 13:08:54 +0100 Subject: Crypto-graphy, crypto-phantasy, crypto-creativity Message-ID: <161227032064.23782.17383050934280603859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> last but one clause of last sentence of previous message should read: at the same time hoping that the excerpts give an idea of the creative stimulus provided by it, apologies, Jan Houben From kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu Thu Sep 4 18:27:11 1997 From: kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu (kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 13:27:11 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227032085.23782.16539310149736693717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: Below is the schedule for South Asia Seminar for Fall Semester 1997 sponsored by the Asian Studies, UT Austin. You can also find the schedule at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/SAseminar97Fall.html As before I will post the lecture abstracts as soon as they are available. Thanks. (Sorry for cross-posting). University of Texas at Austin Center for Asian Studies 1997-98 South Asia Seminar Preliminary Schedule "Freedom plus Fifty: Reinterpreting South Asian Independence" 1997 Fall Semester Lectures are Thursdays at 3:30 pm with a reception at 3 pm. Location: Meyerson Conference Room, WCH 4.118 September 11 South Asia Seminar series introduction by Gail Minault Diplomat Pran Nevile Retired Indian Diplomat "Lahore 1947: A Personal Experience of Partition" September 18 Colonel Robert Osborn CEO Guildford Corporation "Auchinleck and the Partition" September 25 Robert D. King University of Texas at Austin, Department of Linguistics "What India has Done Right Since Independence" October 2 Ambassador Phillips Talbot Former Ambassador and Past President of Asia Society "Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah: India's Two-Track Trail to Independence" October 9 Inder Malhotra Distinquished Indian Journalist, New Delhi, India "Indian Media Since Independence" October 23 Harjot S. Oberoi University of British Columbia, Department of Asian Studies "Sites of South Asian History: Birds, Texts and Memory" October 30 Ayesha Jalal Columbia University, Department of History "The Role of the Punjab in the Partition of India" November 6 Muhammad Umar Memon University of Wisconsin-Madison, Department of South Asian Studies "Urdu Fiction on Partition-An Assessment" November 13 Kamala Visweswaran University of Texas at Austin, Department of Anthropology Title TBA November 20 Jamal Malik Rheinschen Friederich-Wilhelms-Universitat Bonn, Orientalisches Seminar der, Germany "Islamic Scholars between National Integration and Islaism in Independent India" From kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu Thu Sep 4 18:30:03 1997 From: kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu (kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 13:30:03 -0500 Subject: Studies Abroad-India Message-ID: <161227032087.23782.4176961778639801770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need information on which universities have "Studies Abroad-India". I would be grateful if you have any information or URL abouy it, and if you could forward it to me. Thanks a lot in advance. Best, Kamal From silk at wmich.edu Thu Sep 4 19:15:12 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (jonathan silk) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 15:15:12 -0400 Subject: Imperfection of Western Indology (pace Fosse) Message-ID: <161227032091.23782.3667617092777550973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The reason for the imperfection of Indology in the West is easy to ascertain, viz: INDOLOGY> In (negative prefix) + do (action), thus = inactive + log (inactive piece of wood) >> Inactive as an inactive piece of wood. Without action there is no progress, etc. .... quod erat deomonstrandum Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Thu Sep 4 14:42:55 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 15:42:55 +0100 Subject: Research visas for India Message-ID: <161227032074.23782.14141295449761025974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Like other foreign scholars, I normally travel to India on a tourist visa if possible. Occasionally, though, it isn't possible, and I have to go through the rigmarole of getting an official research visa. This is the case at present: when I arrive in Pune (assuming I ever get there) I shall have to open a bank account, sign contracts of employment, and buy equipment worth several lakhs of rupees. This isn't normal tourist behaviour, so a research visa has to be acquired. The official position is that such a visa normally takes between three and six months to come through. I have made use of diplomatic contacts to press for it to be expedited, but even so I have so far waited nine weeks. This seems an absurd waste of time: my project is utterly uncontentious, and will bring a respectable amount of foreign exchange into the country. I have the impression that American (and Canadian?) scholars have this business under much better control than we do here in UK/Europe, and that this is done through American/Canadian institutions based in Delhi. If this is true I should be grateful for any information on how it works: is there some way of smoothing out the problems? I am not here thinking of short-term ways to improve my own situation; what I want to do is to see if it is possible to set up some equivalent long-term arrangement for European Indologists. All information gratefull received. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 4 15:01:38 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 16:01:38 +0100 Subject: Research visas for India Message-ID: <161227032076.23782.11929263961096165268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should certainly like to join any initiative to improve access by European indologists to longer-term visas for study and research work in India. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Thu Sep 4 21:39:02 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 16:39:02 -0500 Subject: Q: Tamil literature Message-ID: <161227032098.23782.10722416240996157827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 9/4/97 Queries: Tamil literature ************************** Greetings. This is N. Ganesan from Houston. I am finalizing a commentary for Padikkaasu Pulavar's Paambalangaarar Varukkak KOvai, a 17th century Tamil pirapantam. In this endeavour, I am getting great help from Mr. S. Srinivasan of Delhi Tamil sangam, Sri. M. K. Raman, (a student of U.V. Saminathaiyar), and Sri. S. K. Ramararajan (Kamparaman) I need help in two problems. 1) Kamparaman says that he vaguely remembers R. P. Sethu Pillai's quote from Tevaram in an essay. Ravanan sings in the paN (raagam) called viLari to please Siva (while lifting Kailasam) "veLLi malaik kiizhirunthu viLari paaTum" I could not locate this in Tevaram. May be, this is from one of 12 tirumuRais. Any help? Is there any other occurence of "viLarip paN' anywhere else in tamil literature? 2) In the Varukkak Kovai, there is a sentence: "maNam koNTu tenRal kamukil ulAviya". - "Like the Southern breeze taking on the pleasant smells of different flowers in a park" ... This is a really hint by the heroine to her husband that his relationship to other women & Devadasis is not appreciated. Sri. Kambaraman told me that in Cilappatikaaram, Kovalan is compared to "Thenral". UVS writes that "thenRal Kovalanukku uvamai". I don't have UVS' edition here. I need the two lines of Cilampu where Kovalan is compared to "Thenral". Thank you very much. Regards, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From DKumar6248 at aol.com Thu Sep 4 21:09:58 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032096.23782.12892283304275038952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:08:44 BST on 4 Sep, 1997 Jan E.M. Houben wrote: >At 15:17:17 EDT >On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:11:05 -0400 (EDT), DKumar6248 at aol.com >started a discussion on "Dravidian Cryptography" which has yielded stimulating >results with regard to well-known names from Indian antiquity. >In the words of D.Kumar: >>> Indology is going to be much more interesting. In fact, I believe, it is never going to be the same again. One of the reasons for this is that numerous words, terms, names, etc., which occur in the ancient Indian texts, including the Vedas, are the result of the operation of this phenomenon [viz. of Dravidian Cryptography]. To put it concisely, they have been encoded by the employment of this linguistic technique of inversion and substitution. <> >My impression is that the results of these techniques of inversion and >substitution are of far greater heuristic value than those issuing from the >laborous methods of etymological "Wortstudien". Moreover, since modern >philosophy of science tells us that the researching subject should be taken >into account in a full evaluation of any scientific method, it is important to >note that these techniques can be expected to be of considerable therapeutic >value for the researcher. >Some lingering doubts remain, however, with regard to the stock of basic terms, >the Dravidian lexemes, which according to some, as we all know, are all direct >or indirect vikrutis of Vedic Sanskrut. Although the latter view is difficult >to prove or disprove, it would seem reasonable to take guidance from the Sanskrut language itself and its infinite semantic potential (Shakti) if we >deal with texts from the great Vedic tradition from Samhitaas to Mahaabhaarata >and Puraanas. What is more, those who want to proceed in this direction, need >not start with a difficult period of trial and error, since some great scholars >have already shown the way: I think especially of N.V. Thadani's inspired >translation of the Miimaansaa suutras with highly enlightening introduction >(Mimansa: The Secret texts of the Sacred Books of the Hindus, Delhi, Bharati >Research Institute, 1952). >Some excerpts from Thadani's work: >We can divide Krshna into K, r, sh, na, when its meaning would be: "(na) >intellect associated with (sh) mind, (r) the senses of action, and (k) Nature >or Prakrti." Krshna accordingly refers to intelligence in its most perfect >conception as associated with the mind, action (or the senses of action) and >the objects of nature. (p. cclxxiv, note). >Vasishtha literally means Vasu-ishta (Va, su, ishtha) -- "(ishtha) the highest >or the best (su) born of (va) Nature or Prakrti;" and so refers to the >intellect, as the first or highest "born" of Nature. >Viswamitra would mean "(mitra) intellect (viswa) in its universal, >comprehensive form;" and this . . . is closely allied to the mind. >Bhrgu -- Bh, r, g, u means "(u, g) the senses of knowledge and (r) the sense of >action, associated with (bh) Nature." >Since my initiation into Thadani's system is incomplete I have to refer all >further queries to this book, at the same time hoping that the excerpts give an >idea of the creative stimulus provided it, and that they suggest additional >avenues of research for the methods propounded by D.Kumar. >Jan Houben This communication is the first of its nature I have seen since Aug.27,1997, even though I expected its kind as soon as I posted my announcement. In that respect it has the honor of being the first one. Since the subject has been already characterized as Crypto-graphy, crypto-phantasy, crypto-creativity (in the subject column), I am afraid there is nothing in common to discuss about. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar << http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ >> < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From poornima at w-o-i.com Thu Sep 4 17:47:32 1997 From: poornima at w-o-i.com (Poornima) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 17:47:32 +0000 Subject: Tobacco Message-ID: <161227032066.23782.16385991149248251210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello list members, Can anyone answer this very elementary question: Did the Harappans smoke? If so, what did they smoke? Beedis, opium? Was tobacco introduced to India by the Europeans? Thanks Poornima Kirloskar Western Outdoor Interactive Mumbai India From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 5 00:56:25 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 17:56:25 -0700 Subject: Of chilies, tomatoes and other delicacies Message-ID: <161227032105.23782.2331505264590853483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are several foods that originated in Central America and then spread to other continents. Among the better known ones are: chili tomato chocolate avocado Their names are derived from the Nahuatl words: chilli tomatl xocolatl ahuacatl Maize comes from Taino mahiz. And potatoes, by the way, are neither German nor Irish. They come from South America. Bon appetit, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Sep 5 02:20:07 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 18:20:07 -0800 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032107.23782.7310361275448932718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert A. Hueckstedt wrote: >In a short story that is used by many of us Hindi teachers in the >intermediate level, "PrAya"scit" by Bhagavati Charan Varma, a cat is >apparently killed near the beginning of the story. The pandit, who is fat >and obviously trying to milk this one for all it's worth, tells the >guilty family that the killing of a cat is as bad as brahminicide. Did >he, or the Hindi author, just make that up? Is there a source for that in >nIti"sAstra or dharma"sAstra somewhere? I remember hearing this as a child while growing up in India that a person who kills a cat has to offer a cat made of gold for atonement. While there was no comparison with brahminicide in the statements I heard, they did convey that killing a cat was not an ordinary sinful act. To this extent, Bhagavati Charan Varma's story is based on an attested and possibly widespread belief. If this belief is expressed in literature, it is more likely to have been expressed in various karma-vipaaka statements found in Puraa.nas, Jain texts, etc. rather than in the 'top-flight' niiti- and dharma-;saastra works. From silk at wmich.edu Thu Sep 4 22:30:23 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (jonathan silk) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 18:30:23 -0400 Subject: Imperfection of Western Indology (pace Fosse) Message-ID: <161227032100.23782.8230321374007002398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I "forgot" the y. But of course, it cannot have been an error, but instead revealed something very essential about language and reality itself (or Reality I should write). Thus, one can certainly read with Lars that Indology *is* the axis mundi itself, and therefore the support of ALL, as he so rightly says. But at the same time, because the omission of the y is both correct and an omission, Indology is also a non-tree. The so-called can't-do-without-it character of our scholarship is at the same time a cry for freedom from our scholarship, a cry for inaction, and thus of course -- as Eliade has taught us -- a return to the beginning time before time. Thus Indology is both the sine qua non for the world itself, and yet the cause of the return of the world to the original nothingness, the oceanic beginning. Vide Eliade, Jung, Campbell and (perhaps our erstwhile colleague Masson?) et al. I think this has well illustrated how once we free ourselves from the idiotic restraints of Western colonial philological (and no doubt also male, genophobic -- one could go on, I am sure!) logic we can easily discover the overarching "field theory" of culture! (I forgot to mention another discovery -- that Indology is also the same as O! Go Lindy! -- indicating without any doubt that ancient Indian scientists not only invented the airplane, but knew that Lindy would be the first across the Atlantic!) Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Thu Sep 4 22:40:36 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 18:40:36 -0400 Subject: Q. original publication date Message-ID: <161227032101.23782.16110815083175859342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: Could anyone please provide the original date of publication (for the Bengali edition) of _MAyer KathA_ (of SAradA DevI, RAmakr.s.n.a's wife). Merci d'avance. Regards, sushil mittal From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 5 02:48:38 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 18:48:38 -0800 Subject: Boccard Message-ID: <161227032109.23782.15762760316648060200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would somebody by any chance have an e-mail address for Editions E. de Boccard in Paris? Thank you very much. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From downingg at is2.nyu.edu Thu Sep 4 22:58:53 1997 From: downingg at is2.nyu.edu (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 18:58:53 -0400 Subject: Imperfection of Western Indology (pace Fosse) Message-ID: <161227032104.23782.8256309004056931188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:16 PM 9/4/97 BST, you (Lars Martin Fosse ) wrote: >>INDOLOGY> In (negative prefix) + do (action), thus = inactive + log >>(inactive piece of wood) >> Inactive as an inactive piece of wood. Without >>action there is no progress, etc. .... quod erat deomonstrandum >> >>Jonathan Silk > >Thank you Jonathan, I think we are getting in deeper and deeper here. >However, you forgot to explain the y. This letter is, of course, pronounced >why, "indology" should there be understood to mean "why is the piece of wood >inactive?". I will suggest that the "piece of wood" is actually a secret >reference to the world tree, the skambha, which doesn't move. The answer to >the question "not-do-log-why" must therefore be: Because it is the support >of ALL. (What else does the skambha do?) The term "indology" is therefore a >cryptic description of the all-supporting, can't-do-without-it character of >our scholarship, which is the skambha of all intellectual activities >concerning Sanskrit. > Ah, but a crucial principle in Dravidian--not to mention Sumerian--etymological cryptography is (apparently, from the postings) that the consonants have to be reversed. So "indology" ulteriorly derives from the consonant-sequence GLDN. Clearly, "indology" comes from "golden," and was originally a pejorative term (cf. "Protestant") implying that people are only in it for the money! (Thanks again to all those on this list who commented on my queries this past June about late-19C solar religion among Indologists.) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Sep 4 18:07:32 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 20:07:32 +0200 Subject: Tobacco Message-ID: <161227032083.23782.14625900323629474744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Did the Harappans smoke? If so, what did they smoke? Beedis, opium? Was tobacco introduced to India by the Europeans? > >Thanks > >Poornima Kirloskar Dear Poornima Kirloskar, tobacco was introduced in Europe after the discovery of America. It is an American plant and smoking is an American Indian custom. I doubt very much that the Harappans smoked tobacco, whatever unhealthy habits they may have had. At the same time, let me thank Dr. Houben for his introduction to Thadani's work. This gives me an entirely new perspective on things. I never really thought of K.r.s.na in that way. Indology at Western universities is really so imperfect! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Sep 4 18:36:11 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 20:36:11 +0200 Subject: Message to Prof. Parpola Message-ID: <161227032089.23782.9376472078420955638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have tried to reach Prof. Parpola using his own email address twice, but my emails bounce. Therefore I try Indology. Dear Prof. Parpola, concerning the dwindling circulation of Acta Orientalia: May I suggest that you consider creating a subscription for private individuals that is cheaper than the one paid by institutions (e.g. about 200 kroner / USD 25). Symbolae Osloenses, which presumably has similar problems, is now offering individual subscriptions at the price of NOK 195,- as against "normal" subscriptions at NOK 320,-. Such a policy might help to keep the number of subscriber above the magical number of 200. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From davidi at mail.wizard.net Fri Sep 5 01:57:58 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 21:57:58 -0400 Subject: Imperfection of Western Indology (pace Fosse) Message-ID: <161227032112.23782.3915569879905961059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Silk (whose name mighe recollect the jovial jibe leveled at -- I think it was -- Nagarjuna's Mahayana philosophy, to the effect that it's comparable to a strand of silk so subtle anad find that perhaps it escapes materiality or likely even existence entirely), allows: > INDOLOGY> In (negative prefix) + do (action), thus = inactive + log > (inactive piece of wood) comparative consideration of Sinology will recollect not only Zhuang-ze [Ch'uang Tse]'s "uncarved block," more even more aptly, the venerable Lao-ze [Lao Tse]'s crucial adage: wei wu-wei er wu bu wei "[if you can but] do the no-doing [yo!] there's nothin' that ain't done!" cheers, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Sep 4 20:10:48 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 22:10:48 +0200 Subject: Imperfection of Western Indology (pace Fosse) Message-ID: <161227032093.23782.16046649601277095721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >INDOLOGY> In (negative prefix) + do (action), thus = inactive + log >(inactive piece of wood) >> Inactive as an inactive piece of wood. Without >action there is no progress, etc. .... quod erat deomonstrandum > >Jonathan Silk Thank you Jonathan, I think we are getting in deeper and deeper here. However, you forgot to explain the y. This letter is, of course, pronounced why, "indology" should there be understood to mean "why is the piece of wood inactive?". I will suggest that the "piece of wood" is actually a secret reference to the world tree, the skambha, which doesn't move. The answer to the question "not-do-log-why" must therefore be: Because it is the support of ALL. (What else does the skambha do?) The term "indology" is therefore a cryptic description of the all-supporting, can't-do-without-it character of our scholarship, which is the skambha of all intellectual activities concerning Sanskrit. An imperfect log, but a log indeed! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Thu Sep 4 22:22:49 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 22:22:49 +0000 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032081.23782.13364624056126551174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:32 PM 9/4/97 BST, you wrote: > >On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, David R. Israel wrote: > >> after the voyage of Columbus. I believe it's commonly asserted that >> the same holds for various other botanicals, such as tomatos and >> chilis. Tangentially, this seems rather interesting with regard to >> current customs & practices of Indian cuisine -- suggesting that mrch >> masala isn't so perennial as one might assume from current plates. > >Indeed. Among strictly observant south Indian families, chilies are >avoided in the food prepared for the annual SrAddha rituals. Pepper is >used instead. > >Vidyasankar > > > > As matter of curiosity chillies are considered as creation of Viswamitra (Trisanku episode) and pepper that of Brahma. sarma. From DKumar6248 at aol.com Fri Sep 5 03:18:59 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 23:18:59 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:some thoughts Message-ID: <161227032114.23782.7594206830826041784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Dominique THILLAUD, Because of an error in the email, this communication which I had sent earlier was returned to me. I am sorry for the delay which is thus involved. I am sending it back to you with an attached file. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com > On 97-09-03 19-38:54 Dominique THILLAUD < thillaud at unice.fr > wrote >>At 6:39 +0200 3/09/97, DKumar6248 at aol.com wrote: >> >> I thought I would take a leaf from my work book, and >>write a note about another rishi Aasanga, who was the son of Playoga. This >>rishi, according to the information about him, got into a predicament: the >>gods cursed him to become a woman. He appealed to another rishi Medhatithi >>about this condition, and Medatithi helped him get his male sex back. Aasanga >>was pleased to no end. He gave great gifts to his benefactor, and addressed >>to him some verses of praise which are in the Rig-veda to this day. It is >>thought that this legend conceals that the author of these verses attributed >>to Aasanga was also a woman, or at the least, a eunuch, and not a man at all. >>In Dravidian Kannada, the word: hengasu, precisely denotes: female (DED. >>#4395), and the name Aasanga, (the bearer of which was cursed by the gods to >>become a woman), is an inverted and substituted form of this Kannada word: >>hengasu. Again, by realizing the existence and operation of the linguistic >>phenomenon of inversion and substitution, we have realized that the legend >>concerning Aasanga is not an idle one. I do not think we can dispute the fact >>that Indology is getting to be more interesting. Best regards. > Till now, I refrain to comment the 'Dravidian cryptography', >because I don't know any word of Dravidian. But this mail is very >astounding! > 1) We know very few about Aasanga who appears just in few slokas of >RV VIII, 1. The Hymn and the comment of Sayana give just the impression he >was impotent and that prayers of his wife restore his virility. But the >story is actually unknown and the romance of Mr Kumar is purely >speculative, just sustained by an isolated passage of the Zaankhaayana >Zrauta Suutra (XVI.11.17) where zaazvatii is taken for a woman's name. >Aasanga is not the better example of a woman! First of all I would like to make it known that I have no romance with anyone who is or was a man and has been cursed by the gods to be a woman. It is true that not much is known about Aasanga, but what is known about him is neither a secret nor obscure. What I referred to about Aasanga (that he was a man, and that he was cursed by the gods to become woman, that he appealed to MedhAtithi - correct spelling, as far as I know - who helped him get his sex back, that Aasanga was pleased and gave gifts to MedhAtithi, and also addressed to him certain verses, that the author of these verses attributed to Aasanga has been thought to have been a woman) can be read in as popularly available books as The Hindu World by Benjamin Walker (Frederick A. Praeger; New York, Washington;1968;Vol. I;p.526). So I have not speculated about it or contrived the story. In the same place, it is stated that the said author of these verses was, perhaps, a eunuch, but I did not refer to this point. I can do that here. In Kannada (heN means: female) hengasu, in the daily speech specifically denotes: a woman. Also in the daily speech, hengasya (Dharwad dialect) denotes: a man who behaves like a woman, (as a eunuch usually behaves). I am of the opinion that AAsanga is an inverted and substituted form of the Kannada word hengasu, because, among other reasons, there are numerous other examples like this. I can not give all the examples in emails. I hope you have seen a few such as Vyasa, NArada, rishi in some of my previous postings. You may notice that on the same page (ibid) the name of another rishi, kaNva, is there. As you know KaNva is supposed to have been born when SUrya was sweating while churning the ocean. The element kaNa, denotes: a drop. Here, note the Kannada word: haniku, which denotes: to fall in drops (DED. #4035), and it is my opinion that the name KaNva is an inverted and substituted form of this haniku. Here also, an addition of h (ha, in this case) has been necessiated. I do agree with you that Aasanga is not better example of a woman. He is not the better example of a man either. >> 2) Aasanga and hengasu are very hard to connect, even with a permutation: what about the 'h' and the vowels ? I am not sure whether you have read the whole documente at < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ >, especially the illustrations or tables numbered 078, 079, 080, 081, 082, where an addition of ha and he, (as I have said there), becomes necessary in order to comprehend the inverted and substituted forms of the noted words in their current forms. As I have noted there also, such things become necessary, since the Dravidian languages have had ample time to grow and develop even though they have not significantly changed. About the element h in Dravidian, however, the scholar Kamil Zvelebil has written something, (I am pretty sure it is in an article in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, under Dravidian), you might want to look that up. As far as the vowels are concerned, I have noted early in that work that my concern is with the consonants of the participating words in the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, their order in the participating words, and their meanings, eventhough I have noted several other related matters there. In order to keep the length of the document as short as possible I had to hold back considerable amount of material. (Therefore, it should be noted that what you see in that document is only a fraction of the toal amount of evidence). I have also said that the exact nature of the participating vowels needs to be examined, verified, and further studied, and that this can be done later on, after we have witnessed the performance of the involved consonants and understood that thoroughly. This is a phenomenon which has been brought to light now, and I do not claim to have explored it completely, and I have said that more than once. It can be explored, and studied, but not when the whole thing is called a joke at the outset. It is not a joke. I for one, would not call anybody's efforts to explore anything harmless, and useful (the latter, perhaps, in your opinion needs to be proved; but that is all right), which may or may not seem to be significant at the moment of its consideration, a joke. But I can not prevent anyone who chooses to do so.. 3) The joke of connecting words with few common phonems is too easy to be a proof. Choose any languages at random, statistics will show you thousand examples of such links. Just two: the Greek 'gunaa' (related to vedic 'gnaa') is 'woman', the popular French 'gonzesse' is 'woman': much better concordance with hengasu than Aasanga! Here, I have to take your admission "I don't know any word of Dravidian.' seriously. It is very considerating of you and others like you to have refrained thus far. I want to thank you all for that forebearance which is one of the true marks of scholarship. But your opinions and thoughts, whether you know Dravidian or not, are interesting and valuable to me; how else would I know what is bothering you? A true phenomenon is supposed to sustain itself by its own merits. But, then, like all others, it needs to be evaluated and judged with the same margin of deference and understanding, as for instance, we afford in the case of verifying the consistency and regularity of the laws or rules of the Indo-European languages. If, when you note an example of a word in its relationship with another Indo-European word, and if some one comes and shows that such a rule has exceptions, would it negate what you are proposing if it is true? No, you would take the fact that there are definitely numerous exceptions to every correspondence in the Indo-European languages, and therefore what you have is one such, and you go from there; you dont stop and discard the whole thing. This is especially true of the Proto-Indo-European roots. None of them is attested, and in their projection numerous exceptions of the concerned rules have not stopped the concerned scholar from projecting them. I am sure, in study of languages, such an understanding is necessary to keep on going, and while proceeding, perhaps, we will be enlightened as to why there is a discrepancy involved there. I would like to bring to your notice that it is not just the number of such words, (I am speaking of the words participating in the phenomenon of inversion and substitution in Dravidian) whether it is great or small, that is so important, but the other phenomena of the pertinent language or languages, which is important. There might be examples which resemble in some fashion the aspect of inversion in any language. Let me quote J.D.Prince who was testifying for the cryptographic nature of the ancient Sumerian language: "Furthermore, in a real cryptography or secret language, of which English has several, we find only phenomena based on the language from which the artificial idiom is derived. Thus, in the English "Backslang," which is nothing more than ordinary English deliberately inverted, in the similar Arabic jargon used among school children in Syria and in the Spannish thieves' dialect, the principles of inversion and substitution play the chief part. Also in the curious tinker's "Thary" spoken still on the English roads and lanes, we find merely an often inaccurately inverted Irish Gaelic. But in none of these nor in any other artificial jargons can any grammatical development be found other than that of the language on which they are based." (The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Literature and General Information, Eleventh Edition, University Press, Cambridge, England (New York); 1911; xxvi;p.77). I have shown that a number of the participating Dravidian words in the phenomenon of inversion and substitution do exhibit grammatical development, which also shows that the results of the phenomenon are not due to accident or coincidence. So it is not just the number (which can not be but much greater in Dravidian than in any other language which is not cryptographic in nature), but the other involved phenomena of the language family, which illustrate that it is not a joke. As soon as we realize that it is not word play, not a joke, not fortuitous, but the operation of a phenomenon, it will be a major breakthrough, as far as any scholar or student is concerned. I am glad you gave an example involving a Greek word. May be it is one of the inverted and substituted forms of Aasanga. Who knows? Because, the Indo-European languages, or any other language (except Sumerian, and may be one or two others) or language family, has been ever examined from the point of view of this phenomenon. I have noted just a couple of examples (there are more which I did not include) of such words (jyoti and tEja for instance) in Sanskrit. If we rake this and others as a clue, may be we will have some information about this matter which may take us completely by surprise. Just the fact that a thing like this has not been noticed by a scholar or scholars is not proof of its absence, if it is there. This is one of the main problems with the Dravidian language studies. First of all, not much is done. And secondly, there is the notion that anything new, if it has not been noticed before, can not be there. This is why we need scholars like Kittel in the Dravidian studies. These European scholars lived among the Dravidians like the Dravidians in their homes and learnt many things about their languages, cultures, and religions and exposed them to the world. If not for these so-called Foreign scholars' efforts, I am not sure the Dravidian studies would have progressed as far as they have, inadequate as it is. There might be people living right on the spot where gold is, but they may not know it. You have to know just once where, for instance, a gold mine is; you dont try to discover a gold mine every time you want dig some gold out of there. This is what has been done in the case of the publcation of the above document. I suppose, the European scholars are probably needed to lead the way again. You might be one of them, who knows? You seem to have the curiosity which is the first step. You doubt it, which is the second step. If you persist, and persist again, by the merits of the pertaining evidence, you may become its champion and teach me and the other Dravidians a thing or two about it. Beleive me, I have tried to disprove it. The more I tried, the more evidence I got. I have been just fortunate to have the the right tools, and the right upbringingi n the Dravidian phenomenon. Coming to another point that the concept of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, or some form of it is not a completely strange one from out of this world: I would like to say that It is interesting to me, though I do not know its significance, that the order of letters in some of the early Greek inscriptions were not regular. It is interesting to me that the Greek scholars were studying the ancient Sumerian as late as the third century B.C.(here I am not sure of the exact date: I do not have the reference at hand right now; I remember that it was one of the early Sumerologists or Assyriologists who dealt with these Greek transcriptions; I don't think it was Sayce; if you need the reference, I will dig that out for you), and as I have noted many scholars like J.D.Prince, and T.G. Pinches called Sumerian cryptographic in nature. I am not saying that the Greek scholars were studying Sumerian's cryptographic nature; but then, they may have been doing just that in view of the fact that some early Greek inscriptions showed the order of the letters to be irregular. It is also interesting to me (though I don't know its significance, for the script is not deciphered) that there are several seals of the Indus valley civilization where the order of the signs is not regular (see Deciphering the Indus Script by Asko Parpola 1994;p.33). Actually on many seals the order of the script is exactly in its reverse order. I beleive, (but I am not sure) that some early Egyptian inscriptions also manifest this phenomenon in some fashion. The occurence of such seals or signs has not prompted the concerned scholars to find out why that has occured. At the moment it has been thought that this must have had happened because it was an early stage in the evolution of the script (I am speaking of the Indus script here). But, it may have some other reason, and that reason may or may not have some connection with the Dravidian linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution. It is our own thoughts and ideas, many times hinder us from proceeding further. It may be noted that, it is by noticing this irregularity of the order of the signs closely in the early Sumerian script (the cuneiform) that Sumerian was noted by the concerned as cryptographic. Not much is stated about this phenomenon in Sumerian by modern Sumerologists, and I do not why. If you observe closely, a variation of this phenomenon can be seen even in the European languages, but to what degree, I do not know. Just an ordinary example: what is 'public telephone' in English, is telephono publico in Spannish (my spelling may be wrong here, but you get the point, I am sure). Examples like this may not be significant, but they are interesting to observe and keep in mind, especially when we have examples in Sanskrit like hamsa, which has been divided and the units have been put in reverse order: sa ham 'this I.' It is significant to me, not only this example manifests some form of reverse order, but also it denotes: 'this I' and this bird is none other than the very vehicle of Brahma, who is also called Aadi-kavi (first-poet). We need to contemplate here: 'this I' means what? what is it trying to say? Is it pointing out that this reverse order is significant? Is this a clue? We may not get answers, or the answers may not be of any significance. But it does not hurt to ask these and other such questions. Just because there are examples of this or that type elsewhere also, just because a number (or a percentage) of words have been supposed to resemble one another in different languages denoting the same meaning, I do not think we should stop wondering and enquiring. I beleive that we should enquire why a certain percentage of words in different languages resemble one another denoting the same meaning, (especially in light of the fact that we do not know much about the movements of the ancient peoples), rather than ascribe it to statistical chance and let it go at that. But the point is, the phenomenon of inversion and substitution is there in the Dravidian language family, and just because it has been forgotten for so long, or just because it is not stated and described in some ancient text, just because the scholars, Dravidian or not, have not seen it, or unable to recognize it when shown, it does not prove that it is not there, or that it was not in function, and that the results of its operation have not, or could not have servived. The habit of measuring or evaluating one language (for instance a Dravidian language) with the measuring stick that is used for another language (for instance, English) will not open doors for further research, instead it shuts them. There is no doubt that English has changed significatly within a short period. But it can not be true of all languages, especially languages of Dravidian family where they have been married for ever to their cultural and religious phenomena. If the cultural and religious phenomena have not significantly changed over thousands of years, then it must, or may hold true for the languages also. It must be remembered that except Brahui, all the other Dravidian languages have not been exposed to direct foreign linguistic influence, and I have shown that many words ascribed to Sanskrit are the inverted and substituted forms of the Dravidian words. So, we can not and must not sit idle thinking that, the Dravidian languages have changed, and the results of a phenomenon such as the one we are discussig could not have servived. I do not know whether you saw one of my early postings in which I have shown how relatively easy it is to observe this phenomenon in Dravidian. Even when you consider such ordinary Dravidian words as the onomatopoeic words, it becomes clear to any sane person that this phenomenon has functioned and these participating words are its results. Not all Dravidian onomatopoeic words have their counterparts in this phenomenon, but a striking number of them do. I would say about sixtyfive percent of them, especially in Tamil. I could not list all of them and show their other significance such as cultural, religious, etc. in my email. Now, having these and other significant number of words also in front of our eyes, it would be admitting to blindness not to recognize these as the result of the operation of this phenomenon. Now, this is only a fraction of the evidence. We have many other areas, some of which I could hardly touch. So it is not a joke. I would have been the last one in the world to spend time, money, and sacrifice what not, if it was a joke. True, we have not examined the participating vowels, but that does not negate what we know about the operation of the participating consonants in this phenomenon. What is illustrated with the help of consonants must actually prompt us to take up the study of the participating vowels, not stop the whole thing. It should be noted that the evidence provided by the Indo-Aryan words for cryptography in Dravidian is as strong and valuable as what is provided by Dravidian itself. The matter of Aasanga is not even a fraction compared to the evidence provided by other Indo-Aryan words, most of which are much more important than the name Aasanga. > I don't intend to begin a debate (I'm not a specialist of >Dravidian), that was just my opinion. > Regards, >Dominique Nothing wrong with debating, or having, or expressing opinions no matter where they come from. I greately admire the curiosity, the penchant for discovering truth which is what that underlies your desire to express them. I am sure you will agree it is how we deliver our opinions; surely without making light of things which may be of significance to others, especially when the subject is not familiar. Actually, I thank you for responding on the List; it is much more than what our Dravidian and other Indian scholars have done. The idea of following the lead but not lead even when the subject conerns them directly appears to be still there. That is why you, and others like you, whether you know Dravidian or not, is important in the studies of Dravidian phenomena. The pleasure has been all mine. I thank you and everybody for the patience. I really enjoy the company which I have missed so badly in my endevor. I hope to write something tomorrow which you might find interesting. Tomorrow's will be my last posting, or one of the very last, for I have been advised to give some attention to my health which I have so far ignored completely. >PS 1: Renfrew's theories are perhaps true, perhaps not. Mallory has other >theories. >PS 2: Not buried, a skelet can't be conserved for a long time. No skelets >were found in destroyed Minoan and Mycenian palaces. We can consider, examine, verify, and study the cryptographic nature of Dravidian or the lingusitic phenomenon of inversion and substitution, without invoking or raising the skeletons and their ghosts of this issue. As I have said, through and throughI it is a Dravidian phenomenon; it can be dealt with solely in the Dravidian theater adequately. We have our hands full there as it is. I have written all the above (I wanted to bring to your notice more, but our High Priest, Dominik (Wujasty) at the Indology Head Quarters may not like it; It is already too long; I don't know what is the maximum length for a posting), because you gave me a chance to do so. Please ignore typos which you might fine.If I do not communicate with you all again: may you all live long with health, happiness, prosperity, and most of all enlightenment. The phenomenon of language is beautiful of all. >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France Best regards. Yours V.Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > < email: dkumar6248 at aol.com > From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri Sep 5 14:26:29 1997 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 09:26:29 -0500 Subject: Imperfection of Western Indology (pace Fosse) Message-ID: <161227032131.23782.7359315660607243910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is truly significant in the findings of these scholars (Greg Downing, Lars Martin Fosse, and Jonathan Silk) is a point suggested, for instance, by Halbfass viz. Europe's philosophical heritage in Indian thought (India And Europe: An Essay in Understanding). In anagrammic crypto-perfection, then, "no-do-log-why" is the history of the world's mental awakening -- note, it is not "no tree"-- true to India's philosophical quest to overcome repeat death, the name points us to the reasoning within that quest. And lest we not forget--tat tvam asi--or the very "forest texts" in which the philosophical thoughts gleaned and mulled by Hegel for the "weltgeist" were articulated. What has been made clear by Fosse, Downing, and Silk is that Indology is, indeed the "root." For where would western philosophy be without the ever present "tree." Whether it stand there to be beheld by Kant or Fichte as other/same, or whether it fall in presence or absence of an observer, the tree is stuff of our thought--philosophy is what grows on trees. From their limbs fall the apples that catalyzed Newton's innovations. From that part of them attached to the ground the Television Miniseries was born at its "Roots." Even down to the "branches" as we now call them of the neural net, we--like the Lorax of Dr. Seuss, speak for the trees. Arbor Day is really "Honor Indology Day" and the U.S. Forrestry Commission is a secret library of MSS used by politicians to perpetuate their power. I enclose the inspiration for this humble submission below, jrg On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, jonathan silk wrote: > Yes, I "forgot" the y. But of course, it cannot have been an error, but > instead revealed something very essential about language and reality itself > (or Reality I should write). Thus, one can certainly read with Lars that > Indology *is* the axis mundi itself, and therefore the support of ALL, as > he so rightly says. But at the same time, because the omission of the y is > both correct and an omission, Indology is also a non-tree. The so-called > can't-do-without-it character of our scholarship is at the same time a cry > for freedom from our scholarship, a cry for inaction, and thus of course -- > as Eliade has taught us -- a return to the beginning time before time. > Thus Indology is both the sine qua non for the world itself, and yet the > cause of the return of the world to the original nothingness, the oceanic > beginning. Vide Eliade, Jung, Campbell and (perhaps our erstwhile colleague > Masson?) et al. I think this has well illustrated how once we free > ourselves from the idiotic restraints of Western colonial philological (and > no doubt also male, genophobic -- one could go on, I am sure!) logic we can > easily discover the overarching "field theory" of culture! > > (I forgot to mention another discovery -- that Indology is also the same as > O! Go Lindy! -- indicating without any doubt that ancient Indian scientists > not only invented the airplane, but knew that Lindy would be the first > across the Atlantic!) > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Greg Downing wrote: >Thank you Jonathan, I think we are getting in deeper and deeper here. >However, you forgot to explain the y. This letter is, of course, >pronounced why, "indology" should there be understood to mean "why is the >piece of wood inactive?". I will suggest that the "piece of wood" is >actually a secret reference to the world tree, the skambha, which doesn't >move. The answer to the question "not-do-log-why" must therefore be: >Because it is the support of ALL. (What else does the skambha do?) > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Fri Sep 5 09:32:09 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 09:32:09 +0000 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Aasanga Message-ID: <161227032116.23782.3929898429013967349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:38 AM 9/3/97 BST, you wrote: >Dear members of the List, > >While I wait for the enlightment I asked for regarding a few questions in my >posting today, and while we consider NArada's resume which he submitted >yesterday in my posting, I thought I would take a leaf from my work book, and >write a note about another rishi Aasanga, who was the son of Playoga. This >rishi, according to the information about him, got into a predicament: the >gods cursed him to become a woman. He appealed to another rishi Medhatithi >about this condition, and Medatithi helped him get his male sex back. Aasanga >was pleased to no end. He gave great gifts to his benefactor, and addressed >to him some verses of praise which are in the Rig-veda to this day. It is >thought that this legend conceals that the author of these verses attributed >to Aasanga was also a woman, or at the least, a eunuch, and not a man at all. >In Dravidian Kannada, the word: hengasu, precisely denotes: female (DED. >#4395), and the name Aasanga, (the bearer of which was cursed by the gods to >become a woman), is an inverted and substituted form of this Kannada word: >hengasu. Again, by realizing the existence and operation of the linguistic >phenomenon of inversion and substitution, we have realized that the legend >concerning Aasanga is not an idle one. I do not think we can dispute the fact >that Indology is getting to be more interesting. Best regards. > >Yours > >V. Keerthi Kumar > >< http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > >email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com >. > > > The word `hengasu' which being connected with Asanga is actually `pengasu'. In both tamil and telugu 'peN' means woman. Prounouncing `p' as `h' is a peculiarity of kannada only not dravidian in general.The word Asanga does not contain even a trace of `p'. sarma. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Fri Sep 5 15:00:40 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 10:00:40 -0500 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032136.23782.7564119561952367729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As one who has studied from Tamil Sangam literature onwards reasonably well for about 30 years, I want to say that the phenomenon of "inversion/cryptical" in Tamil is not common at all. May be for some onomatopoeic words. That's all. Kannada "hengasu" is from the Old Kannada "peNgasu". 1000s of words of modern Kannada have transformed "p" into "h". Regards, N. Ganesan Once a friend sent me this: >%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Kannada telugu English tamil Malayaalam meaning %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% hagalu pagalu day pagal habba pabbamu festival haLLi palle village paLLi,paTTi halli lizard palli haNNu panDu fruit pazham hancu pancu to divide handi pandi pig panRi hallu pallu tooth pal haaDu paaDu to sing paaDu haaDu paaTa song paaTTu hattu padi ten pattu haalu paalu milk paal haaLu paaDu bad paazh haarihOgu paaripOvu to run away haavu paamu snake paambu hiDi piDi fist piDi hucca picci mad piccu huvvu puvvu flower pU huli puli tiger puli huLi Tamarind puLi hunju punju cock heNNu girl peNNu henDati penDlamu wife penDATi hoTTa poTTa stomach hola polamu farm pulam(?) hogaLu pogaDu to priase pugazh hOgu pOvu to go pOgu hOraaTa pOraaTamu struggle pOraaTam hasivu hunger pasi haNa money paNam honnu gold ponnu halsu Jackfruit palaa hasu cow pasu horage outside puRam happaLa Papad pappadam hiTTu flour piTTu hullu grass pul hesaru name peyar hasaru green gram payaru hinde back pinde (pinne) hada (verb) soften(?) padam huNNu wound puN huduga boy podiyan havaLa pearl pavaLam .. {If I had the dictionary in my front I can go on and on...} From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Fri Sep 5 10:08:38 1997 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 10:08:38 +0000 Subject: Studies Abroad-India Message-ID: <161227032142.23782.9324395418760768837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 Sep 97 at 19:40, Kamal R. Adhikary wrote: > I need information on which universities have "Studies Abroad-India". I > would be grateful if you have any information or URL There's a non-definitive list at: http://www.acusd.edu/theo/studyabroad.html#Other Anyone who knows of additional programs, I'd like to hear about them. Lance ------------------------ Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu From Hrid at aol.com Fri Sep 5 14:43:21 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 10:43:21 -0400 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032134.23782.13931806281017784972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If chillies come from elsewhere, does that mean that all that hot hot Indian food is not "original"? From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri Sep 5 16:31:49 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 12:31:49 -0400 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032140.23782.6035950159587189025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>If chillies come from elsewhere, does that mean that all >>that hot hot Indian food is not "original"? Black pepper, ginger, and various other substances with zing were always available to make the gunpowder mandated for all Indian dishes ;-))) As Vidya mentioned, among observant S.Indian families, chili is not used in foods prepared on s'rAddha days. Similarly, other "english kAikaL" (lit. English vegetables) which is Tamil idiom for vegetables such as carrot, tomato, potato etc are not used on such days. These preferences probably indicate an external origin at some point in time for these vegetables. The lack of a native word in Tamil for chili is also pointed out as an indication of the external origin, at least wrt the Tamil region, of chili. Chili is called miLakAi, from miLaku+kAi... lit. raw pepper, green pepper. The raw form of black pepper, paccai miLaku (lit. green pepper), is also consumed in the form of pickles and such. __________ As for coffee consumption among S.Indian Brahmins, specifically Tamils, the historian P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar, writing about the late 19th/early 20th centuries, says that it is ironic that what could not be wished away by Apastamba has now been taken care of by the modern stimulant...i.e. coffee. He was referring to the increasing popularity of coffee as the first thing consumed in the morning... rather than "pazhayadu" (lit. old) which is normally a watery mixture of buttermilk and left-over rice that is kept overnight covered with water. Apastamba had made an allowance in his sUtras for consumption of such "stale" food... relegating it to local custom. ________ -Srini. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 5 12:25:50 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 13:25:50 +0100 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032124.23782.16539632833935949605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, jayabarathi wrote: > What was the Soma juice, actually? > Could opium and ganja been in use? > Some sannyasis of certain orders are > known to smoke ganja. > Dr.Wujastyk would be able to throw some light. I'm too stoned to be able to answer answer answer asnerw inswer andoswer indoloswer answology ... indology! All the best, Dominik :-) From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 5 21:14:00 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 14:14:00 -0700 Subject: Imperfection of Western Indology (pace Fosse) Message-ID: <161227032147.23782.2774672333255526063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is difficult to add anything of significance to the most excellent commentaries of the pundits Jonathan, Lars, Greg, JR, and others. So then, what about the In-do-log-y list? I wish to submit that it is now evident that it provides the means to LOG-on to true knowledge, to infinity, to being as well as non-being, and to what was there before being and non-being! Some might even call it the Aquarian Soma. (have you landed safely, Dominik?) Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 5 22:21:37 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 15:21:37 -0700 Subject: Studies Abroad-India Message-ID: <161227032150.23782.3516666355162241403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm not sure this is what you are looking for but, just in case, UC, Berkeley has an Education Abroad Program for its students that includes India. The program's Web page is: http://www.IAS.Berkeley.EDU/bpsa/#EAP Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 07:41 PM 9/4/97 BST, you wrote: >I need information on which universities have "Studies Abroad-India". I >would be grateful if you have any information or URL >abouy it, and if you could forward it to me. Thanks a lot in advance. > Best, > Kamal > > > > > From jhtatelman at facstaff.wisc.edu Fri Sep 5 20:43:06 1997 From: jhtatelman at facstaff.wisc.edu (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 15:43:06 -0500 Subject: Tobacco Message-ID: <161227032094.23782.16673570936919189490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can confirm that tobacco, tomatoes, chillies and potatoes were brought back from the Americas by the early European explorers and from there disseminated to Asia. >Poornima Kirloskar asks, > >> Did the Harappans smoke? If so, what did they smoke? Beedis, opium? >> Was tobacco introduced to India by the Europeans? > >I don't know about the first question, but as for the introduction of >tobacco, I have read from what seemed a good book on the history of >tobacco smoking (purchased in a cigar shop). I regret not having the >volume on hand, and cannot provide any instant citation. The book >included information that perhaps belongs to the popular wisdom, but >did seem to have much detail and carried what I felt to be a sense of >some proper scholarship. > >According to my recollection, it was clearly suggested that tobacco >smoking originated exclusively with Native Americans, and thus was, >of course, not introduced to Europe (let alone Asia / India) until >after the voyage of Columbus. I believe it's commonly asserted that >the same holds for various other botanicals, such as tomatos and >chilis. Tangentially, this seems rather interesting with regard to >current customs & practices of Indian cuisine -- suggesting that mrch >masala isn't so perennial as one might assume from current plates. > >The tobacco volume also referred to the faddish popularization of >tobacco smoking in Europe -- where it was initially (and for a good >while) viewed as a salubrious, indeed highly beneficial practice. In >my view, there might be more to that than current vogue suggests -- >thinking, here, of the non-inhaling forms of tobacco smoking (pipe & >cigar), as distinguished from the noxious effects of cigarettes. > >but I run afield . . . >d.i. > . > ..... > ............ > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > > david raphael israel < > >> washington d.c. << > | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) > | disrael at skgf.com (office) > ========================= > | thy centuries follow each other > | perfecting a small wild flower > | (Tagore) > //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// Work: Home: Dr. Joel Tatelman, 4817 Sheboygan Avenue, Apt. 716, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Madison Wisconsin 53705, U.S.A. Dept. of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Tel.: (608) 278-0447 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, Wisconsin 53706, U.S.A. Tel.: (608) 262-2749 Fax: (608) 265-3538 From DKumar6248 at aol.com Fri Sep 5 20:09:49 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 16:09:49 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptograph:The Arousal? Message-ID: <161227032145.23782.7041397229683333169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, As I was composing my last email, I noticed a flood of email in my box. Among other useful things, almost all of them related to the subject of the name Aasanga, who, as we know was cursed by the gods to be a woman. I am just wondering: should not have I dealt more with the words, terms, names, aspects, etc., relating to woman, rather than having concentrated on such things related to men? Never mind, even if they were sages! Best regards. Yours Keerthi - V.Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > dkumar6248 at aol.com > From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Fri Sep 5 13:46:40 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 16:46:40 +0300 Subject: Message to Prof. Parpola Message-ID: <161227032126.23782.17195394353450683314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have tried to reach Prof. Parpola using his own email address twice, but >my emails bounce. Therefore I try Indology. > >Dear Prof. Parpola, > >concerning the dwindling circulation of Acta Orientalia: May I suggest that >you consider creating a subscription for private individuals that is cheaper >than the one paid by institutions (e.g. about 200 kroner / USD 25). Symbolae >Osloenses, which presumably has similar problems, is now offering individual >subscriptions at the price of NOK 195,- as against "normal" subscriptions at >NOK 320,-. Such a policy might help to keep the number of subscriber above >the magical number of 200. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 Many thanks for your contructive proposal, which I am forwarding to the editor, Professor Per Kvaerne at the Instutite for Comparative Study of Human Cultures in Oslo. Asko Parpola PS. My correct e-mail address is: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 5 15:49:42 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 16:49:42 +0100 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032138.23782.7997389096258864388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 Hrid at aol.com wrote: > If chillies come from elsewhere, does that mean that all that hot hot Indian > food is not "original"? That's exactly right. Pepper, black pepper, and long pepper, have a long history in India. But chilli, and all the Capsicum family, are South American in origin, and are not known in Indian before the sixteenth century. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From jaybee at tm.net.my Fri Sep 5 11:08:39 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (jayabarathi) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 19:08:39 +0800 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032119.23782.2716477455894947778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:10 PM 9/4/97 BST, you wrote: >At 05:32 PM 9/4/97 BST, you wrote: >> Dear members of the list, For that matter even for tobacco, a subsidisry purana has been created already. Tobacco is known as Brahma Patra, and is said to have been created by Brahma. It is a peculiar story. This version is heard in Tamilnadu. Saraswathi was wondering how is that Lakshmi and Uma have their own patra i.e., the Bael or Bilva and Margosa. She got so engrossed that her thought waves emanated as fumes of envy. Soon Brahmaloka was clouded with the smoke. Brahma then created a leaf from the smoke and hence it became known as Brahma Patra. Of course, this story is a concoction. Tobacco is certainly of American origin. And Sarswathi does have a Patra for her own- the Brahmi or Vallarai. Did the Harappans smoke anything? Or did they take in any other psychedelic agents? Mood suppressors? Mood elevators? What was the Soma juice, actually? Could opium and ganja been in use? Some sannyasis of certain orders are known to smoke ganja. Dr.Wujastyk would be able to throw some light. Jayabarathi Malaysia >>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, David R. Israel wrote: >> >>> after the voyage of Columbus. I believe it's commonly asserted that >>> the same holds for various other botanicals, such as tomatos and >>> chilis. Tangentially, this seems rather interesting with regard to >>> current customs & practices of Indian cuisine -- suggesting that mrch >>> masala isn't so perennial as one might assume from current plates. >> >>Indeed. Among strictly observant south Indian families, chilies are >>avoided in the food prepared for the annual SrAddha rituals. Pepper is >>used instead. >> >>Vidyasankar >> >> >> >> > >As matter of curiosity chillies are considered as creation of Viswamitra >(Trisanku episode) and pepper that of Brahma. > >sarma. > > > From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat Sep 6 06:46:22 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 23:46:22 -0700 Subject: Celebrations of Milleniums Message-ID: <161227032157.23782.10944047092796619769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you mean apocalyptic ideas, it would be surprising to find a connection to any of the 'historical' eras, such as the Shaka one. Escathological concerns would be linked to the yuga system of chronology, the Puranic version of which describes the current Kali yuga as lasting 432 000 years, starting in 3,102 BCE. However, the equivalent of current Western apocalytic preoccupations related to the millenium is the idea that the Kali yuga is coming to an end and a new Satya yuga is dawning. Many modern movements claim that this is currently taking place. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 03:18 PM 9/4/97 BST, you wrote: > >In some recent consultancy work I have been doing on Indian calendars and >eras, I was asked a question which I do not have the answer to and thus >share with you to see if anyone out there has some answer to: does anyone >know if the milleniums in any one of the many different Indian eras, have >been marked (historically) with celebrations, fanfare, etc, or any of >the kind of attention that the upcoming common era millenium is being >marked. Thanks (please give references if possible) > >Mary McGee, Columbia University > > > > From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Sep 6 04:23:08 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 00:23:08 -0400 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032152.23782.15471686851917744661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-05 07:14:44 EDT, jaybee at tm.net.my writes: << Could opium and ganja been in use? Some sannyasis of certain orders are known to smoke ganja. >> I remember a song by a cittar (Sanskrit 'siddha') in which he says 'kaJcAp pukai piTiyAtE' (do not smoke ganja). I think it was 'tAyumAn2avar' who said it but I am not sure. Regards S. Palaniappan From apandey at u.washington.edu Sat Sep 6 07:46:05 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 00:46:05 -0700 Subject: India First Day Covers Message-ID: <161227032159.23782.7834155876202869447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Could anyone please tell me if India issues First Day Covers, and if so, where they may be acquired from. I'm particularly interested in knowing whether or not India issued an FDC commemorating its 50th year of independence. I recall my father having a subscription for Norwegian FDCs when we lived in Norway, which he continued when we moved to the US. I'm assuming (and hoping) that India would offer such a programme as well. Any information is greatly appreciated!! Thanks. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From DKumar6248 at aol.com Sat Sep 6 05:01:24 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 01:01:24 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032154.23782.12405740736352131077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, I am afraid that this is too long to send by email. I am sending an attached file. Thanks for your patience. Dear members of the Indology List, This being my last communication, at least for a while, first of all I want to take this opportunity to thank you all for your patience. Now, in view of the facts that I have noted that the names of such ancient figures as Vyasa, NArada, and others are the inverted and substituted forms of the related Dravidian words, and that these names have been used in the Indo-Aryan languages, one might wonder how is that, this phenomenon of inversion and substitution being a Dravidian phenomenon, the names of attestedly Dravidian deities are not shown to be participants in this phenomenon. And, therefore, we may take as an illustration of it, the name of Muruku or Muruga, who is one of the most ancient gods of the Dravidinas, and some of his other names. It should be noted that when we consider any deity in the Indian theater, we need to be familiar with all the legends, stories, manifestations, and other aspects such as the cultural and other relationships that such a deity is known to be associated with., for any consideration without involving these matters would be, for sure, without any life and essence in it. It is in this respect that the fact that, in his efforts to decipher the Indus Script, the renowned scholar Asko Parpola, while considering the god Muruku, notes pertinent points going as far back as the god Rudra, (whose name occurs in the Vedas) in addition to all other relationship (such as astral) and aspects of this god, is not only appropraite, but absolutely necessary. In my earlier work, (wherefrom I am borrowing the pertinent materal here), I have noted that the cardinal doctrine of the Sumerian religious experience and expression, that the name of the deity somehow partakes of the reality of what it denotes (The famous Sumerologist Thorkild Jacobsen states this accurately, but since, due to circumstances, I am without almost all of my reference works on hand, I can only refer the reader to his work: Toward the Imaga of Tammuz; someplace where he discusses the aspects of the Sumerian pantheon) is also a monument in the Indian pantheon. And this aspect also must be taken into consideration while we are dealing with the names of the Indian deities. We can not, here, go into all the details concerning Muruku or Muruga, who is also known as Skanda, but we can not do without noting the most famous story concerning his birth, and the traditional visualization of this god as having six faces. To be very brief according to this famous story (and there is more than one and different versions of the same; but we will consider the main frame work as narrated by the famous ancient Indian poet, KAlidasa in his KumAra-Sambhava): There was this Taraka who through his austerities obtained a boon from Brahma that he could be salin only by a son of Shiva. This was tantamuont to immortality, because, he knew that Shiva was in deep meditation, and eons may go by before his awakening. Now he set to terrorrize the gods systematically that the gods could not take it anymore. They contrieved a plan to wake up Shiva so that he may have a son from Parvati who was also waiting for Shiva to wake up. The gods volunteered KAma, the god of love, convincing him that he was also needed for creating the appropriate mood for Shiva. KAma subscribed the help of Vasanta, the god of Spring, who obliged by bringing into reality the spring season, complete with lush greenery, flowers, singing birds, etc., Now. taking his most powerful arrow, KAma aimed good at Shiva and let it go. Shiva was surely disturbed, and no sooner than he woke up, he knew he had been disturbed. Utmost rage erupted in him, his third eye opened and beheld the hapless KAma who instantly went up in smoke. This was more than an adequate warning to the gods that the seed of Shiva was going to be needlessly too powerfull. Somehow they deposited the emitted seed of Shiva into the sacrificial fire, but the seed was, indeed, so powerful that a leaping took place resulting in the birth of Skanda. Skanda was a beautiful boy god, who had six faces to be nursed by the wives of the six sages who belonged to the Pleidas, and eventually became the great General of the armies of the gods, the youthful hero, chiefly the god of war and love, and slew Taraka. The factor of leaping is a very important point in the examination of his name Skanda in light of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution; (I remember seeing someplace that Skanda denotes: 'leaper'; however, I have no reference to quote). It is an inverted and substituted form of the Dravidian Kannada word: dinku, which precisely denotes: a leap (DED. #2971); dinkisu, means: to cause to leap. In view of the fact that a number of words occuring in Sanskrit have been shown (in the work on the Internet) to be inverted and substituted forms of the Dravidian words, it is not hard to see that we are witnessing the same situation here also. The other Kannada word kanda, which is an inverted and substituted form of dinku, denotes: young child (DED. #1411), and Skanda or Muruga is knwon as an young boy, young man, a boy god; and he is associated with infants (Asko Parpola; Deciphering the Indud Script;1994;p.225; henceforth I shall refer to this work as: A.Parpola). Since there is no room here, and as I am not sure that the the tables (like the ones in the above noted work; I had many problems keeping these tables in place when this work was published on the Internet; to my chagrin, there still are some imperfections there and I may not be able to fix them, but I thought the scholars would understand, and I went ahead and published it) would retain their design in the email, these just mentioned and other words may be put in the formation of tables by the reader, for visual onvenience. There are other correspondences involving different other aspects of this god and their related Dravidian words in light of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, but let us just take the other name of this god: Kumara. In its inverted and substituted form, this name: Kumara, constitutes two Dravidian words: Aru muka which precisely denote: six faces; (Aru = six; muka - used most popularly by the Kannada people - or moga = face - see DED. #2485 and 4889 respectively). And Muruku is also known as Shan-mukha, 'sixfaced.' The same words Aru muka, with slight variation, become: ara maga, which in Kannada denote: king's son (Kt.p.37), and kumara has been defined as: heir apparent (Kt.p.143). Another name: Muruga, when subjected to the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, (keeping the correspondence that many times g = k, in mind), yields: korram, which denotes: victory, success, (DED. #2169), as in a war (and Muruga is the boy warrior of the Indian pantheon, the General of the Army); and a related word in the same group (DED. #2169) is korravai, which is the name of the goddess of war and victory, according to George L. Hart III. In view of the fact that the name of the young god is also spelled as Muruku, it must be noted that the inverted and substituted form of Muruku is the Dravidian Tamil: kuram, which denotes: Kuruva tribe (DED. #1844), and that these tribal people lived (most of them still do) in the hills, hilly regions which are areas of Muruku and korravai or Korravai's abode (in Malayalam kuru, denotes: hill - 1864 - in Sumerian kur, denotes: mountain, in Sanskrit, it is giri) It is not astonishing (though the revelation must be) that the meanings of the entire group of the words listed under DED. #1844, denote many factors with which Muruga and Korrvai are associated. Some of them are: palmistry, fortune tellers (and the Kuruva women are famous as fortune tellers and they live in the same hilly places), thievish wandering hill tribe that sell wooden comb etc., (and Muruku is the god of the thieves; ibid; p.234), shepherd, a caste of shepherds (and one of Muruga's six heads is that of the goat; A.Paroola p.237), serpent charmers (and Murukan, as Subrahmanya - another name for him -is associated with the worship of the serpent - A.Parpola;p.226),and so on and so forth. Many scholars have expressed that it is a puzzle that Murukan is associated with the snake A.Parpola;p.226), because it is very rare to see a snake on or near the person of Subrahmannya. But it is not hard to see that when we subject the name Murukan to the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, (keeping in mind the correspondence k=g) it yields: nAgaram, which is the cobra. There are many other illustrations like this, but this is enough for us here. So, when we request the national god of the Tamilians, the General of the armies of the gods, he willingly ensues and clearly testifies through his names the existence and operation of the Dravidian linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution. Like the names of the Sumerian deities ( he and his mother have close correspondence with some of the Sumerian deities), his names, as we saw, above, somehow partake of the reality of what they denote. They are not idle names. Note to Professors N. Ganesan, and D.V.N.Sarma: I have thankfully noted your kind input regarding the correspondence between p and h. I would like to bring to your notice that when we are considering correspondences such as p becoming h, we must remember at least two important points. First of all, many of these correspondences (like the phenomenon of the final u in Kannada, which I have noted in the above work; I could not cite all such there) go as far back as the ancient Sumerian, and even then, there were already different dialects. I remember Bishop Sayce (Archibald Henry Sayce) noting in his The Archaeology of the Cuneiform Inscriptions, such dialects as the potter's language, and so on. The main two Sumerian dialects, however, were, the Eme-ku and the Eme-sal, roughly interpreted as: "the noble or male speech" and "the woman's language" (J.D.Prince). And even to this day the main two dialects of Kannada the: Dharwad Kannada and the Mysur Kannada, are referred to as the male Kannada, and the female Kannada, which, as Professor Prince noted for these Sumerian dialects also, reflect the "roughness" and the "softness" of the idioms phonetically. Since the antiquity of the Dravidian dialects go to most ancient times, we can not pass judgement on such matters as certain correspondences based on a partial picture of them. Secondly, as you know, there is the significant difference between the speech form and the written form of Kannada. Even to this day the words written with an initial p almost always (I should really say always here, but I am trying to be accurate) are pronounced in the daily speech with an initial h. No normal Kannadigas say pAlu, pallu, palli, for milk, tooth, and lizard; they say hAlu, hallu, and halli. It is so unusual to say pAlu, pallu, and Palli, in the daily speech that almost all Kannada people will ask "what is it?" or "what are they? To tell you the truth, these words beginning with an initial p are not used in the current regular writing either. Text books, daily newspapers use hAlu, hallu, and halli. The p words have been used in the old Kannada writings, especiall, poetry; but even in modern Kannada poetry, the words beginning with p are hardly ever used, unless the poet is trying to imply ancientness. This situation in the daily speeches, has not been recorded, because speech Kannada is not employed in writing Kannada. So, in situations like this, we can not strictly go by what is gathered from witnessing the written Kannada, be it an inscription or an ocassional modern poetry. Nobody knows how long this situation has been there in Kannada. It may have been there for ever; and it may have contributed for the occurence of numerous p words as h words even in ancient times, for instance, when the name Aasanga was coined. May be the one who coined it was accostomed to employ h words, rather than p words. Who knows? We can not always apply what we know now about these correspondences to ancient times. But, I understand, that in Tamil, most of the p words are used even in writing, and therefore, I further understand you pointing out this to me with a list of p and h words in Kannada. I am aware of that, as well as the facts I mentioned above. Tamil and Kannada have diverged in many respects, and this p and h word situation is one of those, especially when you take the daily speeches of the different dialects of Kannada. Notice that there are at least 275 words beginning with h which are listed in the list of the Kannada words at the end of DED, and there is not one word listed with intial h in Tamil or Malayalam. On the other hand, h was there in Sumerian. This factor needs to be studied further. Again, there are hundreds of words in Kannada which begin with b, and there is one (bomm-enal DED. #4469) which is listed in the Tamil word list in DED. This needs to be studied too. This all goes to show that much needs to be done in the study of the Dravidian languages. We need to find out why these and other such things have occured, and we need to go as far back in time as we can. Now, regarding the fact that Professor Ganesan said that the phenomenon of inversion/criptical (as you stated it) is not common in Tamil except for some onomatopoeic words: In my earlier work I have noted more than once that the reason that I have mostly dealt with Kannada words in illustrating the phenomenon of inversion and substitution is not because that this phenomenon is limited to Kannada, but to mainly prove its presence and operation in at least one language first. It should be noted that the participating words do not have to be from the same Dravidian language. The phenomenon will be considered as having been operated in any Dravidian language which has either of the two or more participating words. And one of these words may be in another Dravidian language. We can not expect all participating words to be in one language, such as Kannada, because this phenomenon has operated from the very infancy of Dravidian. We are forced to expect a distribution of these participating words among all Dravidian languages, but we can not specify which language should have which participating word. Just as in Indo-European, where a related word which, for instance in Greek, skips several lands of other Indo-European languages, and appears in another language, for instance, English, (see The families of words and Story of Language by Mario Pei) so also, in witnessing this phenomenon in Dravidian, we must be prepared to witness a participant word near or away from the place of its participating counterpart. All the Dravidian languages have not been studied from this point of view. You may have noticed above that I have cited some Tamil words in the context of Murukan. This tells us that this phenomenon is there in Tamil also. Actually this phenomenon is there in Tamil as much as it is in any other Dravidian language. We just have to study these languages from this point of view. If it was there in Tamil when Murukan was there, surely, it could not have disappeared leaving him behind. There is another very important factor which is also involved here and must be taken into account when we are studying this phenomenon especially in Tamil: I have not seen anybody say that Tamil words are significantly tri-consonantal. I do not know if anybody has studied this aspect of Tamil in depth. Of all the languages in Dravidian, Tamil is significantly tri-consonantal, and I beleive that, if that has not been looked into already, it should be. This is important not only for Tamil, but also for the larger picture of the Dravidian and his languages. It is to be noted here that the Semitic language family is primarily tri-consontal, and we know that the Semitic Akkadians took over after the weakening of the ancient Sumerians in Mesopotamia. In witnessing the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, especially in Tamil, factors such as these - tri-consonantal -must be taken into account. Actually, I had to leave out numerous Tamil words because I wanted to deal with Kannada words, as much as possible. And even then I had to note several words belonging to other languages, Tamil especially, because this phenomenon is at the very foundation of these languages. I can show as many illustrations of this phenomenon in Tamil as I have in Kannada, and more. It may be noted that tri-consonantal factor is there in Kannada also, but not as much as it is in Tamil. Also, we need to give more attention to the other Dravidian languages which also contain important information regarding the ancient Sumerian. There is much work to be done, and much enlightenment to be attained. All can be done if we only make up our mind, and in this, I am sure our friends in other countries will back us up as much as they can. The phenomenon of language is not limited to any nation or national. It is one of the fundamental grounds where we all meet and share. As I mentioned earler, as far as I can, this is my last communication to the List members. Circumstances might force that I may not have the computer facility. I thank you all for your patience again. I wish every one long life, great health, happiness, prosperity, and a pleasant journey. Best wishes. Farewell. Yours V. Keerthi kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From poornima at w-o-i.com Sat Sep 6 02:57:05 1997 From: poornima at w-o-i.com (Poornima) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 02:57:05 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227032148.23782.6152842460136280304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello members of the list, Thanks a lot for your interesting replies regarding the smoking habits of the Harappan civilization.Keep the replies flowing in!!! Would anyone be knowing the e-mail addresses of Dr. Jean-Francois Jarrige Dr. Michael Janson? Thanks Poornima From davidi at mail.wizard.net Sat Sep 6 17:21:37 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 13:21:37 -0400 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032203.23782.5200264471935526958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Bob Hueckstedt's question -- > In a short story that is used by many of us Hindi teachers in the > intermediate level, "PrAya"scit" by Bhagavati Charan Varma, a cat is > apparently killed near the beginning of the story. The pandit, who > is fat and obviously trying to milk this one for all it's worth, > tells the guilty family that the killing of a cat is as bad as > brahminicide. Did he, or the Hindi author, just make that up? Is > there a source for that in nIti"sAstra or dharma"sAstra somewhere? this veers far afield from said sAstra literature, and probably even from Indology (unless someone might be able to fill in possible Indic Buddhological lines that connect w/ this dot) -- but this query immediately brought to mind a charming book that merits passing mention. It's a children's storybook, *The Cat That Went To Heaven* (published, I'd guess, in the 1970s or so in the U.S.) -- I forget the author's name. The tale has a Japanese setting, involving a temple-commissioned painted depiction of Gautama Buddha, to be surrounded (somewhat St. Francis-like) by a gathering of animals. The scene in question is to represent a moment prior to the Paranirvana, when (evidently according to certain tales) the Buddha bid a fond farewell -- or presented blessings / teachings -- to a wide Noah-boat-gathered-ish variety of sentient species. The painter is sternly advised that a cat is not to be included (for reasons that, alas, escape memory). The painter, in preparation for executing the painting, contemplates the sweep of the traditional life of the Sakyamuni -- and his household cat likewise participates in this several-day meditation. As one might anticipate, a miracle occurs, evidently on behalf of the cat (whose devotion was a theme of the little tale), suggesting that this late cat managed to attract blessings to the feline brood after all. I've no idea what relationship this storybook may have with traditional Japanese (or antecedent) Buddhist sources, but shouldn't be surprised if there were some olden bases to it. On the face of it, it seems to suggest (possibly) ideas somewhat antithetical to the assertion of the money-grubbing Pandit of your tale -- which in might be in keeping with that story's sense of an absurd claim? d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From apsss at uohyd.ernet.in Sat Sep 6 22:31:41 1997 From: apsss at uohyd.ernet.in (Dr Aloka Parasher-Sen) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 17:31:41 -0500 Subject: Studies Abroad-India Message-ID: <161227032161.23782.13972060667019246148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Kamal: University of Hyderabad,Hyderabad - 500 046 ,India is starting a Study India Program from Jan 98. Let me know what would you specifically like to know? -Aloka From apandey at u.washington.edu Sun Sep 7 01:41:12 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 18:41:12 -0700 Subject: Tobacco Message-ID: <161227032163.23782.11902065874629053798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Joel H. Tatelman wrote: > I can confirm that tobacco, tomatoes, chillies and potatoes were brought > back from the Americas by the early European explorers and from there > disseminated to Asia. I recall watching an episode on Discovery titled "The Curse of the Cocaine Mummies" which discussed the controversy surrounding the data that some Egyptian mummies were found to have traces of nicotine and cocaine in their hair. Arguments that the mummies were recent or fake were made by those who opposed the theory that the Egyptians knew of tobacco before Columbus. The opponents also claimed that the nicotine traces found on these mummies could have come from other plants besides tobacco. Tests were run on samples collected from these mummies, and along with cross-disciplinarian research it was determined that these mummies were indeed from a period before Columbus. The primary researcher stated that the concentration of nicotine found could come only from tobacco. The question of how nicotine could have been known to the Egyptians was left unanswered (as far as I remember!). That's a fairly unjust summary of the interesting episode. I believe it aired sometime in the beginning of August. I'll try to dig up additional information about the programme and post it if I am able to find it. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From thompson at jlc.net Sun Sep 7 02:02:46 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 22:02:46 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032166.23782.11207625769203158497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since Mr Kumar has shown himself in his numerous postings to be a comparatist, it occurred to me that he might find the following references useful. There is in fact a long history, both fruitful and fruitless, of what he calls cryptography in Europan history, going back of course to Plato [Europeans like to say that it *all* goes back to Plato; we Indologists know better]. For the convenience of the reader I will make reference only to Englsh language books [other references can be forwarded off-list, on request]. Of course there have been countless cryptographies based on the collection of writings conveniently known now as the Bible. The most recent one in English in fact is currently on the best-seller lists. It is called, appropriately enough, _The Bible Code_. It uses computers. Impressive. Just by coincidence [I imagine], I have here on my desk a book called _The Wolf Man's Magic Word: A Cryptonymy_, by Nicolas Abraham & Maria Torok [foreward by Jacques Derrida], Minneapolis, 1986. For those interested in Freudian and neo-Freudian crytography. Five stars. _The Violence of Language_, by Jean-Jacques Lecercle, London, 1990. This book presents the author's revolutionary "theory of the remainder" whereby speakers overcome the violent constraints imposed on them by their native languages. The remainder is what your grammar book leaves out. It is the "odd, untidy, awkward, creative part" of language. It is the "essence of poetry and of metaphor". Etc. A weird and fascinating book. It is supposed by some to have original insights into the origins of language. Highly recommended for those interested in origins. _The Power of Babel: A Study of Logophilia_, by Michel Pierssens, London, 1980. This is a brief history of five "logophiles" who were engaged in research rather like Mr. Kumar's, except in various European languages. Unfortunately some of them were schizophrenics, while others were a poet, a novelist, or a linguist. Top notch reading. Unfortunately it lacks a chapter on the remarkable German poet H?lderlin. _On Puns: _The Foundations of Letters_, a collection of essays by distinguished scholars on 'the call of the phoneme' [which was the name of the conference at which these papers were first presented]. [edited by Jonathan Culler, Oxford 1988]. For those on the list who are fans of deconstruction. Very punny. A+. Of special interest to Indologists: _From India to the Planet Mars: A Study of a Case of Somnambulism with Glossolalia_, by Theodore Flournoy [introduction by C.T.K. Chari], New York 1963 [originally in French 1900]. This has been recently reprinted by an American publisher, I believe. Flournoy, eminent pre-Freudian psychologist, calls upon Ferdinand de Saussure, whose contributions to modern linguistics I'm sure we're all aware of, to decode the transmissions received by a certain Helene Smith, famous clairvoyante, both in a Martian language and in Sanskrit. It turns out, to make a long story very short, that Martian is closer to French than to Sanskrit [at least in phonology]. My personal favorite, as one might imagine. The same Saussure left behind unpublished [one wonders why!] 134 notebooks on anagrams hidden throughout classical literature [including 26 notebooks on Vedic meter]. These were discovered in 8 boxes in the Univ. Library of Geneva by the well-known Saussure scholar Robert Godel and published by Jean Starobinski: _Words Upon Words: The Anagrams of Ferdinand de Saussure_, New Haven 1979 [Eng, translation]. S. finds, for example, the name of Aphrodite encrypted into Lucretius's famous poem _De rerum natura_ [this is weird because a Greek name is hidden within a Latin poem: why?]. This is too complex to get into,of course, but Saussure's anagram theory has had an enormous impact on contemporary poetics and literary criticism, as well as on the study of Indo-Europen poetics [and in fact on my own work on Vedic poetics]. Yet he never published these notebooks himself for fear of having no proof that the phenomena which was describing *was actually in the texts*. A word to the wise. I call this last book in particular to Mr Kumar's attention because I think that he faces the same dilemma in his researches that Saussure had to face in his: how to demonstrate that one's findings are meaningful? how to demonstrate that these meanings exist in one's texts and not merely in one's own head? how to convince other scholars that this is not simply 'over-semiotic madness', i.e., that one is not simply 'reading too much into the text'???. It appears to me that your dilemma, Mr. Kumar, is rather like my own. You have my sympathies. Of course, who has time to read all these books and worry about such things? Such long postings about dubious uses and abuses of language? Perhaps such long-winded postings like this one should be sent *off-list* specifically to those who want them? I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for using the delete-button in response to such long and scarcely Indological postings.... with many apologies and promises to get better soon [you see, I'm sick too, Mr Kumar], George Thompson From wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Sep 7 06:00:45 1997 From: wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (David) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 00:00:45 -0600 Subject: Tobacco Message-ID: <161227032168.23782.9292884116745421293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Anshuman Pandey wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Joel H. Tatelman wrote: > > > I can confirm that tobacco, tomatoes, chillies and potatoes were brought > > back from the Americas by the early European explorers and from there > > disseminated to Asia. > > I recall watching an episode on Discovery titled "The Curse of the Cocaine > Mummies" which discussed the controversy surrounding the data that some > Egyptian mummies were found to have traces of nicotine and cocaine in > their hair. Arguments that the mummies were recent or fake were made by > those who opposed the theory that the Egyptians knew of tobacco before > Columbus. The opponents also claimed that the nicotine traces found on > these mummies could have come from other plants besides tobacco. Tests > were run on samples collected from these mummies, and along with > cross-disciplinarian research it was determined that these mummies were > indeed from a period before Columbus. The primary researcher stated > that the concentration of nicotine found could come only from tobacco. The > question of how nicotine could have been known to the Egyptians was left > unanswered (as far as I remember!). > > That's a fairly unjust summary of the interesting episode. I believe it > aired sometime in the beginning of August. I'll try to dig up additional > information about the programme and post it if I am able to find it. > > Regards, > Anshuman Pandey > > There is reference to the same discovery in the Science Frontiers Web Site at http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf095/index.htm Considering the rest of the web site, I'd be a bit skeptical... Yours, David Allen email: wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~wart From gldnreef at primenet.com Sun Sep 7 15:13:41 1997 From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 08:13:41 -0700 Subject: Celebrations of Milleniums Message-ID: <161227032195.23782.8644604042199961032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:51 AM 9/6/97 BST, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >If you mean apocalyptic ideas, it would be surprising to find a connection >to any of the 'historical' eras, such as the Shaka one. Escathological >concerns would be linked to the yuga system of chronology, the Puranic >version of which describes the current Kali yuga as lasting 432 000 years, >starting in 3,102 BCE. However, the equivalent of current Western >apocalytic preoccupations related to the millenium is the idea that the Kali >yuga is coming to an end and a new Satya yuga is dawning. Many modern >movements claim that this is currently taking place. > > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >University of California, Berkeley > To which calendar do these modern movements adhere now that the Gregorian calendar seems to be nearly world-wide? The interesting thing about numerical symbolism in eschatologies is that the particular calendar does not seem to matter. Millenarian movements are very syncretic -- using everything from Jaina yugas to Mayan astronomical calculations. Even Christians who worry about the year 2000 use the words of Jesus, the Apocalypse of John, Nostradamus and Joachim of Fiore who all lived by the Julian calendar. From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Sun Sep 7 19:15:26 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 11:15:26 -0800 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032208.23782.3443073583370173680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > The word `muka' is a vikriti of the sanskrit word `mukha', `h' being dropped > for easiness of pronunciation. This word cannot be claimed as an original > dravidian word. Then we have the situation mukha -> muka -> aru+muka -> > kumara. That is sanskrit -> dravidian -> sanskrit situation. No primacy of > the dravidian is achieved. 'Mukha' itself is usually given a Dravidian or Austric origin. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From silk at wmich.edu Sun Sep 7 15:45:52 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (jonathan silk) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 11:45:52 -0400 Subject: Boccard Message-ID: <161227032197.23782.13699337939137649372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> my 1997 Boccard catalogue lists no email address; their fax is 01 43548583, phone 01 43 26 00 37 . Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From silk at wmich.edu Sun Sep 7 15:51:46 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (jonathan silk) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 11:51:46 -0400 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032200.23782.7581405503399348202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I *certainly* hope you are not suggesting that there are *any* scholars (!) who have EVER smoked ganja! (Or, as one methodological approach has it: perhaps it happened in the ancient past, but certainly not anymore!) Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:04:43 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 12:04:43 -0700 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032210.23782.13871632475524096861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA >At 06:04 AM 9/6/97 BST, D.kumar wrote: > >>The other Kannada word kanda, which is an inverted and substituted form ofdinku, denotes: young child (DED. #1411), and Skanda or Muruga is knwon asan young boy, young man, a boy god; and he is associated with infants (AskoParpola; Deciphering the Indud Script;1994;p.225; henceforth I shall refer to this work as: A.Parpola). Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma says: >On the one hand it is claimed that `skanda' is the inverted/substituted form of`dinkisu' (= leap). On the other hand it is claimed that`kanda' which is the vikriti of `skanda' is the inverted/substituted form of `dinku' (= child).How can a vikriti of one word which is a inverted/substituted form of`dinkisu' be an inverted/ substituted form of another word 'dinku'. One word >should have only one origin. > > I can't hunt up the exact reference here, but I do remember reading somewhere that "skanda" is actually from tamil "kaNDa" i.e. the argument was that skanda is the sansktirized form of "kaNDa" as opposed to "kaNDa" being a vikrti/tadbhava form of "skanda". I think that this theory is plausible because Murugan was originally a Dravidian diety i.e. ancient Tamil poetry is full of references to him but AFAIK the Vedas certainly donot talk about him and he appears in the rest of India only much later( by the time of Kalidasa, he certainly became very popular, but are there any copious references to him before that? I dobut if we'd find copious references and even then, I don't think there are as many as Tamil literature). Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:21:05 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 12:21:05 -0700 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032212.23782.2125992019041195047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Regarding Bob Hueckstedt's question -- > > In a short story that is used by many of us Hindi teachers in the >intermediate level, "PrAya"scit" by Bhagavati Charan Varma, a cat is > apparently killed near the beginning of the story. The pandit, who > is fat and obviously trying to milk this one for all it's worth, > tells the guilty family that the killing of a cat is as bad as > brahminicide. Did he, or the Hindi author, just make that up? Is > there a source for that in nIti"sAstra or dharma"sAstra somewhere? I think that this story was apparently made up by B.C.Verma...I think he was trying to illustrate how the Brahmin was willing to tell a few tales and invent rules in order to make a few bucks..stories like this which illustrate the un-moral, if not immoral ways of the Brahmin Pundits seem to have been very common during this period...I remember reading another one where a Brahmin notices bananas growing on a Banana tree and tells the farmer that the Bananas are facing in the wrong direction and therefore he( the farmer) can be harmed, but disaster can be averted if he donates the bananas to the Brahmin..then there seems to have been some kind of a Kashmiri tale about how a Brahmin desired to marry a beautiful princess and told her father that she would ruin him and that he should get rid of her by placing her in a basket and make it float down the river and leave a lamp burning on top of the basket( This was so that he knew which basket she was floating in). The basket instead of being discovered by the Brahmin was discovered by a prince, who married the princess and played a trick on the Brahmin by getting hold of a monkey and placing it inside the basket...the basket eventually reached the Brahmin who opened the basket hoping to discover a damsel only to have his nose bitten off.... The bottom line is all of them focus on the hypocrisy of the Brahmin Pundits. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From davidi at mail.wizard.net Sun Sep 7 17:07:52 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 13:07:52 -0400 Subject: Tobacco / the mummies Message-ID: <161227032205.23782.6544724799699891064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey wrote -- > I recall watching an episode on Discovery titled "The Curse of the > Cocaine Mummies" which discussed the controversy surrounding the > data that some Egyptian mummies were found to have traces of > nicotine and cocaine in their hair. . . . anyone who happened to take in (intern alia) any of the evidentiary debate (or drift, exempli gratia) from O.J. Simpson's public science show (so to say) might at least passingly wonder about the nicotine and/or cocaine use of whatever archeologists (etc.) through whose hands said mummies may've happed to pass . . . (too obvious an idea to be overlooked by august producers of *Discovery* perhaps, -- but still, accidents can happen . . . ) d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Sun Sep 7 12:04:55 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 17:04:55 +0500 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032171.23782.13092076897502610884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:04 AM 9/6/97 BST, D.kumar wrote: >The other Kannada word kanda, which is an inverted and substituted form of dinku, denotes: young child (DED. #1411), and Skanda or Muruga is knwon as an young boy, young man, a boy god; and he is associated with infants (Asko Parpola; Deciphering the Indud Script;1994;p.225; henceforth I shall refer to this work as: A.Parpola). > On the one hand it is claimed that `skanda' is the inverted/substituted form of `dinkisu' (= leap). On the other hand it is claimed that`kanda' which is the vikriti of `skanda' is the inverted/substituted form of `dinku' (= child). How can a vikriti of one word which is a inverted/substituted form of `dinkisu' be an inverted/ substituted form of another word 'dinku'. One word should have only one origin. >There are other correspondences involving different other aspects of this god and their related Dravidian words in light of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, but let us just take the other name of this god: Kumara. In its inverted and substituted form, this name: Kumara, constitutes two Dravidian words: Aru muka which precisely denote: six faces; (Aru = six; muka - used most popularly by the Kannada people - or moga = face - see DED. #2485 and 4889 respectively). And Muruku is also known as Shan-mukha, 'sixfaced.' The same words Aru muka, with slight variation, become: ara maga, which in Kannada denote: king's son (Kt.p.37), and kumara has been defined as: heir apparent (Kt.p.143). > The word `muka' is a vikriti of the sanskrit word `mukha', `h' being dropped for easiness of pronunciation. This word cannot be claimed as an original dravidian word. Then we have the situation mukha -> muka -> aru+muka -> kumara. That is sanskrit -> dravidian -> sanskrit situation. No primacy of the dravidian is achieved. The word `muruga' of follows from `Arumuga' much more convincingly. Arumuga -> ( by dropping initial A) -> rumuga -> (interchange of first two letters) -> muruga. >Many scholars have expressed that it is a puzzle that Murukan is associated with the snake A.Parpola;p.226), because it is very rare to see a snake on or near the person of Subrahmannya. But it is not hard to see that when we subject the name Murukan to the phenomenon of inversion and substitution, (keeping in mind the correspondence k=g) it yields: nAgaram, which is the cobra. There are many other illustrations like this, but this is enough for us here. > The word murugan with `n' ending is of tamilian origin. We can only say that inversion/substitution (if it is there) is exclusively tamilian. `nAga' is a sanskrit word for serpent. This means thar ancient tamilians gave their god the attributes of a sanskrit word formed by the inversion/substitution of the name of their god.This also implies that by that time of seperation of dravidian into seperate dilects has solidified. >Note to Professors N. Ganesan, and D.V.N.Sarma: > >I have thankfully noted your kind input regarding the correspondence between p and h. I would like to bring to your notice that when we are considering correspondences such as p becoming h, we must remember at least two important points. First of all, many of these correspondences (like the phenomenon of the final u in Kannada, which I have noted in the above work; I could not cite all such there) go as far back as the ancient Sumerian, and even then, there were already different dialects. I remember Bishop Sayce (Archibald Henry Sayce) noting in his The Archaeology of the Cuneiform Inscriptions, such dialects as the potter's language, and so on. The main two Sumerian dialects, however, were, the Eme-ku and the Eme-sal, roughly interpreted as: "the noble or male speech" and "the woman's language" (J.D.Prince). And even to this day the main two dialects of Kannada the: Dharwad Kannada and the Mysur Kannada, are referred to as the male Kannada, and the female Kannada, which, as Professor Prince noted for these Sumerian dialects also, reflect the "roughness" and the "softness" of the idioms phonetically. Since the antiquity of the Dravidian dialects go to most ancient times, we can not pass judgement on such matters as certain correspondences based on a partial picture of them. > >Secondly, as you know, there is the significant difference between the speech form and the written form of Kannada. Even to this day the words written with an initial p almost always (I should really say always here, but I am trying to be accurate) are pronounced in the daily speech with an initial h. No normal Kannadigas say pAlu, pallu, palli, for milk, tooth, and lizard; they say hAlu, hallu, and halli. It is so unusual to say pAlu, pallu, and Palli, in the daily speech that almost all Kannada people will ask "what is it?" or "what are they? To tell you the truth, these words beginning with an initial p are not used in the current regular writing either. Text books, daily newspapers use hAlu, hallu, and halli. The p words have been used in the old Kannada writings, especiall, poetry; but even in modern Kannada poetry, the words beginning with p are hardly ever used, unless the poet is trying to imply ancientness. This situation in the daily speeches, has not been recorded, because speech Kannada is not employed in writing Kannada. So, in situations like this, we can not strictly go by what is gathered from witnessing the written Kannada, be it an inscription or an ocassional modern poetry. Nobody knows how long this situation has been there in Kannada. It may have been there for ever; and it may have contributed for the occurence of numerous p words as h words even in ancient times, for instance, when the name Aasanga was coined. May be the one who coined it was accostomed to employ h words, rather than p words. Who knows? We can not always apply what we know now about these correspondences to ancient times. But, I understand, that in Tamil, most of the p words are used even in writing, and therefore, I further understand you pointing out this to me with a list of p and h words in Kannada. I am aware of that, as well as the facts I mentioned above. Tamil and Kannada have diverged in many respects, and this p and h word situation is one of those, especially when you take the daily speeches of the different dialects of Kannada. Notice that there are at least 275 words beginning with h which are listed in the list of the Kannada words at the end of DED, and there is not one word listed with intial h in Tamil or Malayalam. On the other hand, h was there in Sumerian. This factor needs to be studied further. Again, there are hundreds of words in Kannada which begin with b, and there is one (bomm-enal DED. #4469) which is listed in the Tamil word list in DED. This needs to be studied too. This all goes to show that much needs to be done in the study of the Dravidian languages. We need to find out why these and other such things have occured, and we need to go as far back in time as we can. > It is obvious that whereas telugu, tamil and malayalam have retained their `p' kannada has changed its `p' to `h'. This is obvious because old kannada writes `p' in places where `h' is pronounced nowadays.And if the word `asanga' of vedic origin is derived from kannada it should be after `p' has been changed to `h'. This I do not think this is possible. I think the transformation of `p' to `h' must be quite recent because you still have material which retains `p' atleast in writing. Finally all these conjuctures and coincidences may be superficial and random. They have no more validity than the Baconian signatures in Shakespeare's plays. sarma. From andersle at leroy.cc.uregina.ca Mon Sep 8 01:57:23 1997 From: andersle at leroy.cc.uregina.ca (Leona Anderson) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 19:57:23 -0600 Subject: Celebrations of Milleniums Message-ID: <161227032217.23782.11587790907026608054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can you give some examples? L. Anderson On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:14:24 BST Trimble wrote: > At 07:51 AM 9/6/97 BST, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > >If you mean apocalyptic ideas, it would be surprising to find a connection > >to any of the 'historical' eras, such as the Shaka one. Escathological > >concerns would be linked to the yuga system of chronology, the Puranic > >version of which describes the current Kali yuga as lasting 432 000 years, > >starting in 3,102 BCE. However, the equivalent of current Western > >apocalytic preoccupations related to the millenium is the idea that the Kali > >yuga is coming to an end and a new Satya yuga is dawning. Many modern > >movements claim that this is currently taking place. > > > > > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > >University of California, Berkeley > > > > To which calendar do these modern movements adhere now that the Gregorian > calendar seems to be nearly world-wide? The interesting thing about > numerical symbolism in eschatologies is that the particular calendar does > not seem to matter. Millenarian movements are very syncretic -- using > everything from Jaina yugas to Mayan astronomical calculations. Even > Christians who worry about the year 2000 use the words of Jesus, the > Apocalypse of John, Nostradamus and Joachim of Fiore who all lived by the > Julian calendar. > > From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Mon Sep 8 05:23:10 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 05:23:10 +0000 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032215.23782.960585836275812162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:08 PM 9/7/97 BST, S.Krishna wrote: > > > >>From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA > >>At 06:04 AM 9/6/97 BST, D.kumar wrote: >> >>>The other Kannada word kanda, which is an inverted and substituted >form ofdinku, denotes: young child (DED. #1411), and Skanda or Muruga is >knwon asan young boy, young man, a boy god; and he is associated with >infants (AskoParpola; Deciphering the Indud Script;1994;p.225; >henceforth I shall refer to this work as: A.Parpola). > > >Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma says: >>On the one hand it is claimed that `skanda' is the inverted/substituted >form of`dinkisu' (= leap). On the other hand it is claimed that`kanda' >which is the vikriti of `skanda' is the inverted/substituted form of >`dinku' (= child).How can a vikriti of one word which is a >inverted/substituted form of`dinkisu' be an inverted/ substituted form >of another word 'dinku'. One word >>should have only one origin. >> >> > >I can't hunt up the exact reference here, but I do remember reading >somewhere that "skanda" is actually from tamil "kaNDa" i.e. the argument >was that skanda is the sansktirized form of "kaNDa" as opposed to >"kaNDa" being a vikrti/tadbhava form of "skanda". I think that this >theory is plausible because Murugan was originally a Dravidian diety >i.e. ancient Tamil poetry is full of references to him but AFAIK the >Vedas certainly donot talk about him and he appears in the rest of India >only much later( by the time of Kalidasa, he certainly became very >popular, but are there any copious references to him before that? I >dobut if we'd find copious references and even then, I don't think there >are as many as Tamil literature). > > >Regards, >Krishna > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > If `skanda' is a sanskritised form of `kanda' a dravidian word, how can it be the inverted/substituted form of `dinkisu'. sarma. From athr at loc.gov Mon Sep 8 09:50:38 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 05:50:38 -0400 Subject: Celebrations of Milleniums -Reply Message-ID: <161227032237.23782.2700108218843418379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Leona Anderson remarks those concerned about the year 2000 cite prophets living under the Julian calendar. But people's worries concern the year as a whole, not just New Year's Day, and anyway the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars is (as I recall) only 11 days. Another problem of course would be when the year began. There used to be significant differences between the countries of Europe on this question, and differences at different times within a single country. Part of the Gregorian reform was making the beginning of the year January 1, at first in Catholic countries and later in others. Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From DKumar6248 at aol.com Mon Sep 8 10:00:24 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 06:00:24 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Farewell2? Message-ID: <161227032224.23782.15360193951693075157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Sarma, I thought I was going to stay off line for as long as the situation forced me to; but since your response was brought to my notice I have managed that this can be posted. Regarding the phenomenon of inversion and substitution "is exclusively Tamilian:" This is a Dravidian linguistic phenomenon, and it belongs to all the Dravidian languages. The other languages of India, inasmuch as they have inherited the results of this phenomenon, and inasmuch as they are part of the total linguistic scene of India, also have due claim on this phenomenon, perhaps more, but no smaller portion. This phenomenon outgrew the stage of being exclusively of Dravidian very long time ago, and now it belongs to the entire linguistic scene of India. The reason I illustrated its evidence with the help of Kannada is not because it belongs exclusively to Kannada or Dravidian, but to prove its prsence at least in one Dravidian language first. Its original home is Dravidian, but the results of its operation now reside in all languages of India. When I said that it is through and through Dravidian, I meant that it can be understood best and first, in its home. Now, I want to emphasize, underline, and highlight this: I am not trying to secure primacy for the Dravidian language family, or any part of it, as opposed to Sanskrit, or any other Indian language. Nowhere I have claimed it for Kannada, exclusively or otherwise. Sanskrit and other languages are as precious to me as are the Dravidian languages. A considerable portion of the Indian mythology is woven around the results of the operation of not only linguistic but also artistic phenomena so much so that it can be safely said that they formed the lifeblood of each other. If you want to understand, appreciate, and enjoy the stated and implied significance of various names, aspects, etc., of the Indian deities and the myths and stories concerning them in their relationship with the linguistic and artistic phenomena to a fuller degree, I am afraid, you can not take with you much of your grammatical luggage to test them with, even though you can still witness the results of the operation of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution to an extent. Regarding your contention that the Kannada muka is from Sanskrit: In their preface, the compilers of DED have stated "We have avoided inclusion in the dictionary of words that were certainly borrowed by Dravidian languages from IA languages..." and under DED. #4889, all the Dravidian words, including the Tamil mukam for face, mouth, etc., are given. Besides this, there are the Dravidian words such as mUti (= face, mouth), DED.#5031; mUgu (= nose, beak), DED.#5024; mUsu (= to smell), DED.34886, listed in DED. not to speak of the other Dravidian words denoting ear and eyes, complete with eyelashes and eyebrows. Using all these latter Dravidian words denoting nose, mouth, etc., which are on or associated with face, I am not convinced that the Dravidians had to borrow or derive the word denoting: face, from Sanskrit. About p=h, in relation to the name Aasanga: I have noted my response already. Absence of literary evidence for the correspondences in the speeches does not indicate the absence of such correspondences, ancient or modern. We can not pass judgement on such matters basing on a partial picture of them. I have also said that the validity of the evidence for the Dravidian phenomenon of inversion and substitution does not rest upon this name. It is time to stop associatimg ourselves with this person who is not sure of his own gender. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar (http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ) email: dkumar6248 at aol.com From kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu Mon Sep 8 14:21:32 1997 From: kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu (kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 09:21:32 -0500 Subject: Studies Abroad-India Message-ID: <161227032234.23782.997275890772403034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Alok: Thanks a lot for the information. Could you please send more about the program, duration, cost, etc. if you have? Best, Kamal >Dear Kamal: >University of Hyderabad,Hyderabad - 500 046 ,India >is starting a Study India Program from Jan 98. >Let me know what would you specifically like to know? >-Aloka From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Mon Sep 8 07:53:24 1997 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 09:53:24 +0200 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032220.23782.9215687896018036421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well India had pepper (black) before they got chillies from possibly Mexico. Pratap On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 Hrid at aol.com wrote: > If chillies come from elsewhere, does that mean that all that hot hot Indian > food is not "original"? > > From ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Mon Sep 8 16:58:39 1997 From: ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Ditte Koenig) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 09:58:39 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227032222.23782.1441563843518821106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Poornima wrote: > > Hello members of the list, > > Thanks a lot for your interesting replies regarding the smoking habits of the Harappan civilization.Keep the replies flowing in!!! > > Would anyone be knowing the e-mail addresses of > > Dr. Jean-Francois Jarrige > Dr. Michael Janson? > > Thanks > Poornima The e-mail address of Prof.Dr. M. Jansen is: Jansen at stadtbaug.rwth-aachen.de Regards Ditte Bandini-Koenig -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From magier at columbia.edu Mon Sep 8 14:17:14 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 10:17:14 -0400 Subject: South Asia EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227032232.23782.11413856557390808386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement has been forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet). We apologize for any cross-posting. If you have any questions or comments, please get directly in touch with the event organizers, as listed below. Thank you. David Magier, Editor SARAI = http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai =================================================================== Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 23:26:35 -0400 From: Joanne Fairley To: David Magier Subject: Trickle Up and Asia Society _________________________________________ The Asia Society and The Trickle Up Program are please to present: "Microenterprise in South Asia: Partnerships in Development" A Report from the Field and Discussion Tuesday September 30 5.00-7.00pm at the Asia Society 725 Park Avenue New York NY 10021 The Trickle Up Program and the Asia Society will host a report from the field by Trickle Up's Program Officer for Asia, Joanne Fairley, and her husband, Dr. Allen Ashby, highlighting the findings of their recent six-week visit to India, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka. They will present the grassroots development efforts and strategies of five NGOs employing an innovative approach to development involving community organizing, acivism, and economic empowerment through microenterprise. The Trickle Up Program is currently working in partnership with over 140 grassroots NGOs in 14 Asian countries, and its microenterprose efforts are designed to strengthen the overall development efforts of their NGO partners. Ms. Fairley and Dr. Ashby will also show slides, and the report will include an interactive discussion with the audience. Dr. David Winder, Director of Programs at the Synergos Institute, will be the respondent. Registration can be made through the Asia Society at 212-517-ASIA. Cost is $15 non members/$10 members/$5 students and seniors From rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu Mon Sep 8 15:26:24 1997 From: rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 10:26:24 -0500 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032239.23782.15353635794223963204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna wrote: >only much later( by the time of Kalidasa, he certainly became very >popular, but are there any copious references to him before that? I There is a reference to him in the rAmAyaNa, (bAla khANDa, I think). That should definitely be earlier than Kalidasa. However, the reference is not "copious". Ramakrishnan. From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Mon Sep 8 15:49:39 1997 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 10:49:39 -0500 Subject: Studies Abroad-India Message-ID: <161227032241.23782.10445700554039505949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry. I thought I sent the message to Alok only, but it went to all of you. Kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Kamal R. Adhikary wrote: > Dear Alok: > Thanks a lot for the information. Could you please send more about > the program, duration, cost, etc. if you have? > > Best, > Kamal > > > > >Dear Kamal: > >University of Hyderabad,Hyderabad - 500 046 ,India > >is starting a Study India Program from Jan 98. > >Let me know what would you specifically like to know? > >-Aloka > > > > From A.Woodcock at derby.ac.uk Mon Sep 8 10:22:03 1997 From: A.Woodcock at derby.ac.uk (Andree Woodcock) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 11:22:03 +0100 Subject: computer noise Message-ID: <161227032227.23782.8460699161451244366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, > I am an interested if anyone knows of any research relating to stress andcomputer noise. > > I sit around all day and some evenings working at a computer. > By the end of the day I am fractious and sensitive to computer noise > I would like to explore this phenomenon, in more detail, with a view to > writing it up. > Firstly, I need to know if I am the only one this happens to, > and secondly does anyone know of any literature/ other people who are > interested in this area. > I have come across a very old email 1994 in my trawl through the internet which originated from your group - do you know of any other literature? have you carried on the work? > As a starting point I have classified computer noise as originating from > three sources. > 1 ' Mechnical ' most notable keyboard and mouse clicks. > 2 Software itself (eg windows opening, 'customisation' of sounds by > enthusiasts, mail delivery) > 3 'Hardware' - fans and disc whirring > > Variables which are likely to effect the degree of irritation include; > 1 the source of the sound (if you are creating it, it is less noticeable). > 2 extent of control over the environment > 3 length of exposure > 4 characteristics of the noise > > Cheers > Andree -- Andree Woodcock email: A.Woodcock at derby.ac.uk Research Fellow Tel: 01332 622222 x4049 Design Research Centre, University of Derby, Britannia Mill, Mackworth Road, Derby, UK, DE22 3BL ------------------------------------------------------ http://lboro.ac.uk/departments/co/research_groups/sadis.html http://loughborough.ac.uk/departments/hu/groups/vsrg/andree/andreeframe.html http://dougal.derby.ac.uk/fnet/ From ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Mon Sep 8 19:32:46 1997 From: ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Ditte Koenig) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 12:32:46 -0700 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032229.23782.13830943145622807059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pratap Kumar wrote: > > Well India had pepper (black) before they got chillies from possibly > Mexico. > > Pratap > > On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 Hrid at aol.com wrote: > > > If chillies come from elsewhere, does that mean that all that hot hot Indian > > food is not "original"? > > > > According to my botanical books it is not at all sure that chillies came from South America to the old world but that they were indigenous in South Asia as well. Ditte Bandini-Koenig -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From DKumar6248 at aol.com Mon Sep 8 19:54:34 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 15:54:34 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:KArtikeya Message-ID: <161227032243.23782.2580929158586810613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, It is clear to me that an important point is being missed while some scholars concern themeselves with the Dravidian phenomenon of inversion and substitution. In order to keep the document on the Internet within a reasonable length, I left unsaid some things which I have noted in my earlier work in detail, and this has created some confusion. Now in order to save space here, I will just quote from others postings what is relevant. For a fuller version of their postings, the reader must refer to those postings, the dates and times of which I have stated. On Sept. 8, 1997 at 01:o4:16BST narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) wrote >>At 08:08 PM 9/7/97 BST, S.Krishna wrote: >> >>From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA < >>> >>>At 06:04 AM 9/6/97 BST, D.kumar wrote: >>> >>>>The other Kannada word kanda, which is an inverted and substituted >form ofdinku, denotes: young child (DED. #1411), .....I shall refer to this work as: A.Parpola). > >>Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma says: >>>On the one hand it is claimed that `skanda' is the inverted/substituted >>form of`dinkisu' (= leap). On the other hand it is claimed that`kanda' ....One word should have only one origin. >>> >>I can't hunt up the exact reference here, but I do remember reading >>somewhere that "skanda" is actually from tamil "kaNDa" ...i.e. the argument as Tamil literature). >>Regards, >>Krishna >> >If `skanda' is a sanskritised form of `kanda' a dravidian word, how can it >be the inverted/substituted form of `dinkisu'. >sarma. The point that is being missed here is that first of all a participating word many times has more than one participating counterpart. Now these counterparts need not necessarily denote the same meaning or meanings which is denoted by their otiginal word. These meanings can be logically related to each other as well as to the meaning or meanings of their original counterpart. This is absolutely important to keep in mind when we are considering such things as the names of the deities. sages, etc., in the Indian pantheon. This is the reason why "a leap" or "one who leaped or caused by the leaping" can also be a kanda = child. Now these two meanings are not related when you take them out of the context of Skanda, but they are logically and intimately related when you consider them in the context of this god. As I have noted, the cardinal religious doctrine of the Sumerians (that the name of the deity somehow partakes of the reality of what it denotes) also is there in the Indian pantheon, and this can be witnessed to a fuller extent when the inverted and substituted forms denote the meaning or meanings logically connected with the deity, or with his aspect or aspects, legends, etc., If the inverted forms have the same meaning or meanings (which is, of course, also possible) as that or those of the original counterpart, it is not possible to witness this doctrine fully in the Indian pantheon, as also in the Sumerian pantheon. The idea which was the foundation in crafting and coining the name of the deities was to pack as much logically related meaning or meanings into it. This could be done only when the inverted form of the name denoted a different but logically related meaning. For instance, another name of this god is KArtikeya, and the element Kartik here represents Krittika, which is apt for, KArtikeya is inseparably connected with the Pleaides. But there is no manifestation of the above noted doctrine, because KArtikeya was born for the express purpose of punishing TAraka. You can witness this manifestation when you invert this name as eku and TAraka. In Telugu eku means: to beat (DED.#765). So the reverse form of the name KArtikeya denotes: 'The Beater of TAraka', which is, of course, what he did. Now, if one starts an argument saying: how can the name of the Pleaides, Krittika, be TAraka, the enemny of KArtikeya, then it would amount to an admission that one is not prepared to witness this doctrine, or for that matter, what was one of the main purposes for which this phenomenon was employed by the ancinet scholars and sages. Indology will not be any more interesting than before in this way. I can not write much, for there is no space, but I would ask the concerned scholars to keep these and other such important points in mind before making any comments which, in the first place, do not have to be made. Also it is time to stop looking at Dravidian through Sanskrit lens. Sanskrit herself would suggest this in the interest of enlightenment. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar ( http://www.mninter.net/!kumar ) email: dkumar6248 at aol.com From gldnreef at primenet.com Mon Sep 8 23:43:46 1997 From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 16:43:46 -0700 Subject: Celebrations of Milleniums -Reply Message-ID: <161227032246.23782.13015081997596799362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:05 PM 9/8/97 BST, Allen W Thrasher wrote: >Leona Anderson remarks those concerned about the year 2000 cite >prophets living under the Julian calendar. But people's worries >concern the year as a whole, not just New Year's Day, and anyway >the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars is (as I >recall) only 11 days. > Eleven days can be a great difference in the Great Conflagration! W. Trimble From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 9 00:50:30 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 17:50:30 -0700 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032249.23782.16685447054876384754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey wrote: > >I recall watching an episode on Discovery titled "The Curse of the Cocaine >Mummies" which discussed the controversy surrounding the data that some >Egyptian mummies were found to have traces of nicotine and cocaine in >their hair. Arguments that the mummies were recent or fake were made by >those who opposed the theory that the Egyptians knew of tobacco before >Columbus. Well, now that you bring up the subject, I'll have to reveal a well-kept secret: the Egyptian, Greek and all other great civilizations are derived from the Mayas of Central America. If you have doubts, read Augustus Le Plongeon's 1896 book 'Queen Moo and the Egyptian Sphinx.' He gives irrefutable proof that the Greek alphabet is derived from the Mayan language. The Greek alphabet is a cryptic description, in Mayan, of the sinking of the ancient continent of Mu (now you know where the name of that letter comes from!). The ancient Mayas traveled to the Middle East and beyond, and their teachings informed all great civilizations. Another author, a certain Tony Earll (who sold more than his cosmically allotted share of paperbacks), described the discovery of some ancient tablets in the outskirts of Mexico City that talked of the ancient sunken continent. As it turns out, Tony Earll is an anagram of 'not really.' Here are some of Le Plongeon's books. Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. Maya/Atlantis : Queen Moo and the Egyptian Sphinx / by Augustus Le Plongeon ; new introd. by Paul M. Allen. Blauvelt, N.Y. : R. Steiner Publications, 1973. Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. Sacred mysteries among the Mayas and the Quiches, 11,500 years ago : their relation to the sacred mysteries of Egypt, Greece, Chaldea and India : Freemasonry in times anterior to the Temple of Solomon / illustrated... 3rd ed. New York : Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Co., 1909, c1886. Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. Vestiges of the Mayas, or, Facts tending to prove that communications and intimate relations must have existed, in very remote times, between the inhabitants of Mayab and those of Asia and Africa. By Augustus Le Plongeon. New York, J. Polhemus, printer, 1881. For those interested in possible pre-columbian contacts between the Americas and the rest of the world, a good starting point would be: Needham, Joseph, 1900- Trans-Pacific echoes and resonances : listening once again / Joseph Needham and Lu Gwei-Djen. Singapore ; Philadelphia : World Scientific, c1985. Best wishes, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Sep 9 01:13:19 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 18:13:19 -0700 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032251.23782.4850263908047742575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Well, now that you bring up the subject, I'll have to reveal a well-kept > secret: the Egyptian, Greek and all other great civilizations are derived > from the Mayas of Central America. Sounds like something James Churchward wrote in his "Lost Continent of Mu." Not these Naacal tablets again! Please! Just goes to show that India was indeed the birthplace of civilisation :-> On a more serious note. I originally read these books by Churchward sometime in the 5th grade. I never actually learned what these Naacal tablets were that Churchward claimed held the secrets of Mu, Lemuria, etc. He wrote that some Indian mystic had these tablets stashed away and decided to show them to Churchward after some insistance. I always doubted the authenticity of these rumoured tablets. Have there been any Indologists who have actually looked into Churchward's story? ...just want to satisfy a childhood curiosity, not subscribe to fringe fantasy! Regards, Anshuman Pandey From davidi at mail.wizard.net Tue Sep 9 12:11:30 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 08:11:30 -0400 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032260.23782.11985458773701232683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following snippiets happened to appear yesterday on the Sasialit listserv -- suggesting that perhaps the utterances of the Pandit in the Hindi tale weren't wholly made out of whole cloth (so to say)? d.i. [snippets follow] / / / / / / / / / / A says: > . . . if we look at "Around the World in 80 days", . . . B says: > . . . On the other hand, Jules Verne exhibits quite a > bit of cultural confusion with the Passpertout-shoes episode where > he mixes up Pagodas, Hindu temples and Parsi fire temples.But he is > accurate about it being a sin (though he overstates it by saying > that the cat is sacred) to kill cats. A says: > . . . .also can you please explain and throw some light on your > statement about its being accurate in that it was a sin to kill cats? B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: > p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which > held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the > generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me > particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't > know much more about it, I'm afraid. From grimesj at pilot.msu.edu Tue Sep 9 12:19:56 1997 From: grimesj at pilot.msu.edu (John A Grimes) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 08:19:56 -0400 Subject: Rta Message-ID: <161227032263.23782.12507072144085115697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Does anyone recall a book about Rta? I seem to remember Motilal had one but I can't seem to locate such. Thanks in advance. John Grimes MSU From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Tue Sep 9 08:59:44 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 08:59:44 +0000 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032254.23782.5624110419655481389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:58 AM 9/9/97 BST, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann writes: >Well, now that you bring up the subject, I'll have to reveal a well-kept >secret: the Egyptian, Greek and all other great civilizations are derived >from the Mayas of Central America. >If you have doubts, read Augustus Le Plongeon's 1896 book 'Queen Moo and the >Egyptian Sphinx.' He gives irrefutable proof that the Greek alphabet is >derived from the Mayan language. The Greek alphabet is a cryptic >description, in Mayan, of the sinking of the ancient continent of Mu (now >you know where the name of that letter comes from!). The ancient Mayas >traveled to the Middle East and beyond, and their teachings informed all >great civilizations. > >Another author, a certain Tony Earll (who sold more than his cosmically >allotted share of paperbacks), described the discovery of some ancient >tablets in the outskirts of Mexico City that talked of the ancient sunken >continent. >As it turns out, Tony Earll is an anagram of 'not really.' > >Here are some of Le Plongeon's books. > > Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. > Maya/Atlantis : Queen Moo and the Egyptian Sphinx / by Augustus Le > Plongeon ; new introd. by Paul M. Allen. Blauvelt, N.Y. : R. Steiner > Publications, 1973. > > > Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. > Sacred mysteries among the Mayas and the Quiches, 11,500 years ago : > their relation to the sacred mysteries of Egypt, Greece, Chaldea and India > : Freemasonry in times anterior to the Temple of Solomon / illustrated... > 3rd ed. New York : Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Co., 1909, c1886. > > > Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. > Vestiges of the Mayas, or, Facts tending to prove that communications and > intimate relations must have existed, in very remote times, between the > inhabitants of Mayab and those of Asia and Africa. By Augustus Le Plongeon. > New York, J. Polhemus, printer, 1881. > >For those interested in possible pre-columbian contacts between the Americas >and the rest of the world, a good starting point would be: > > Needham, Joseph, 1900- > Trans-Pacific echoes and resonances : listening once again / Joseph > Needham and Lu Gwei-Djen. Singapore ; Philadelphia : World Scientific, > c1985. > > >Best wishes, > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >University of California, Berkeley Claims have been in India that Mayas are related to Mayasura, the Great Architect of Asuras, the Father-in-law of Ravana, and the builder of the Mayasabha (a court cum palace) for Dharmaraja in Mahabharata. This was one of the things that ultimately led to the Mahabharata war becuase Duryodhana was jealous of the sabha. sarma. From AndrewC at mail.uca.edu Tue Sep 9 09:06:36 1997 From: AndrewC at mail.uca.edu (Andrew Cohen) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 09:06:36 +0000 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032265.23782.12057650306017042377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: meditating cats. At the "Great Relief" in Mahabalipuram, there is a delightful representation of a dubious Yogi-- a cat does tapas as mice gather at his feet to see this marvel. The cat's pose duplicates that of the main figure whose identity is debatably Arjuna or Bhagiratha (relief is filled with multiple readings which Mike Rabe might explain). See: Heras, Fr. H. "The Hypocritical Cat:"' Tamil Culture (1952): 286-319 And Rabe's forthcoming "Cryptic Praises: The Mamallapuram Prasasti Deciphered" in Artibus Asiae Andrew Cohen From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Sep 9 16:40:17 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 09:40:17 -0700 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032272.23782.17083480488671224375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >On the subject of the connection between India and south America, I > would like to add that about a year ago in Hinduism Today an article was > published on the connection between these two areas. There is commoness in Didn't you know that Argentina gets its name from Arjuna, the Pandava? Vidyasankar From pdb1 at columbia.edu Tue Sep 9 15:47:58 1997 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 11:47:58 -0400 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032268.23782.4303464919808771083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Well, now that you bring up the subject, I'll have to reveal a well-kept > secret: the Egyptian, Greek and all other great civilizations are derived > from the Mayas of Central America. I remember reading once somewhere that Jesus' words from the cross, "Eli Eli lama sabachthani," which are generally thought to be Aramaic, actually turn out to be Mayan for "Now, now, sinking, ink over my nose." -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From thakarj at box-t.nih.gov Tue Sep 9 15:48:32 1997 From: thakarj at box-t.nih.gov (Jay Thakar) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 11:48:32 -0400 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032270.23782.65946211619984863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On the subject of the connection between India and south America, I would like to add that about a year ago in Hinduism Today an article was published on the connection between these two areas. There is commoness in south Indian temples and the temples of south America. There are several words in south american languages and south Indian languages with similar meaning. In a publication in Scientific America ( somewhere in 1976-78) I have seen a picture of flying man which to any Indian will represent Hanuman. In the history of Mexico, it is mentioned that Mexico was established by people who came from east. May be there is more to the stories of Pandavas going to PATAL and getting married to local girls, and having kids, e.g.,. GHATOTKUCH, the son of BHIMA.It is said that Hastinapur was built by PATAL people.Keep looking, probably ther is more to discover. Goog luck, Jay Thakar From DKumar6248 at aol.com Tue Sep 9 17:20:21 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 13:20:21 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:The responsibility Message-ID: <161227032274.23782.8526888457962407041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, Two questions which have been aked of me need to be answered: (1): How can anyone who calls himself a scholar, can doubt in the same posting on this List, the very existence of something (he called Dravidian Cryptography may be "conjectures and coincidences"), and then in the same breath utter "(if it is there) is exclusively Tamilian"? (another Dravidian scholar posted saying that it is there in onomatopoeic words, but not common in Tamil).(2): If I published these findings before, why have they not been known to the scholars since their publication? The first question here, I am afraid, is misdirected. The answer must come from the one who made those remarks. Regarding the second question: I have noted previously that my earlier work :The Sumerians: Their Identity and the Evidence for it" in two volumes, even though registered with the Copyright office, and their copies housed in the Library of Congress, was essentially a desktop publication, published with the intention that I was going to use the material in them to write other works. I could not get to this task right away, for two reasons: when I sent copies of these volumes to certain so-called authorities in the subjects (Sumerian and Dravidian) it was like dropping a stone in a deep hole. There was not even the sound of it hitting anything at the bottom. But then, I just sent them and have the postal proof of having done so by Registered Mail, but did not contact them and persue the matter. I thought they were supposed to at least acknowledge, even if, as a matter of common courtesy. Because of this discouragement as well as due to the fact that I had to put food on the table and such other things, I did not persue writing deriving material from this work. But it was always on my mind, and I was constantly gathering more and more evidence. When I did get to work, the result was "The Best Kept Secret of Dravidian," the offspring of which is the work on the Internet. When I was about to publish the former work, it occured to me that the same fate might befall this work also, (as what had happened to 'The Sumerians'). Since the discovery was too significant to be not known to a number of scholars, I decided to put it on the Internet. I had to make lot of changes mainly beacause it was not going to be on paper, and I had to hold much new material back to keep the length short. One of the other reasons to publish this on the Internet was that, I had come to have a rather negative opinion about the existence of true scholarship in the world, for there was no response, negative or positive, when I mailed the copies of 'The Sumerians' to the concerned scholars. I gained the impression that these scholars, if they have read all the contents of 'The Sumerians,' for some reason, either do not like what they see there, or are under the impression that it will go away if they ignore it or pretend like they have not seen it. I might be wrong on both counts, but that is the impression I got. This impression was substantiated when after I had given the manuscript of 'The Best Kept Secret' to one of the linguists (who teaches Tamil) in an University, it was kept for about two months, and when I went back to ask for an opinion, I found out that, perhaps, it was not read at all. One of the reasons why I did not go directly to and insist upon the Dravidian scholars about my findings, can be seen by a ceratin scholar's disposition to first doubt the existence and operation of the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution when the evidence is placed in front of the world, then, second: to claim it exclusively for a certain Dravidian language, before going and examining more than the two dozen Dravidian languages to base his conclusion upon. I am also of the impression, and it is only my impression, that there is a tendency among the Indian scholars in general and the Dravidian scholars in particular, (particularly those who want to go and work in a Wester University) that the Western scholar will not like it or will not consider if something great is discovered or said about the Indian and/or the Dravidian phenomenon. I would be glad if I am wrong on this, but it is my impression. I personally is of the opinion, that a scholar is a scholar no matter whether he belongs to the Western or Eastern World. This is why we have the contributions of such scholars as Hinks, Oppert, Sir William Jones, Revs. Kittel, Caldwell, Rice, Sir Ralph Turner, Burrow, Emeneaun and others like them; some of them not linguists, archaeologists, or historians in the traditional sense. They took the responsibility immediately without being invited or assigned. I still beleive that there are scholars in the world who take on the responsibility of scholarship whether they are invited to take it or assigned. Now that the findings concerning the Dravidian phenomenon of inversion and substitution are in front of the world, no one can say that they remained obscure and out of view. I have fulfilled my responsibility under the most strenous circumstances. I can not be blamed for not having published them widely, this time. Besides, the results of the operation of this phenomenon will live as long as the last words of the last Dravidian; the knowledge about their significance will not go away, even if ignored, this time. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar ( http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ); email: dkumar6248 at aol.com I blamed myself partly, that is why I took Dominik's jest seriously From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Wed Sep 10 00:19:08 1997 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 14:19:08 -1000 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032288.23782.15757620265030933953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following > >B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: > > > >> p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which > >> held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the > >> generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me > >> particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't > >> know much more about it, I'm afraid. This must be quite a widespread belief, then. I happen to know that Bapa Rao is Telugu, while, as I recall, someone from Maharashtra also referred to such a belief. In my own family (we are Tamil), my mother and grandmother warned me that if a cat "lost even one single hair" because of me, I would have to go to "narakam" (i.e., hell. but temporary). Why cats in particular? Don't know. Regards, Raja. From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Tue Sep 9 21:52:58 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 14:52:58 -0700 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032280.23782.7617549635732077280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jay Thakkar writes: >> On the subject of the connection between India and south America, I would like to add that about a year ago in Hinduism Today an article was published on the connection between these two areas. There is commoness in........ Vidyansankar says: Didn't you know that Argentina gets its name from Arjuna, the Pandava? Now, now! Not this thread again:-)....all this derivation business and DEwan Chaman Lal!!!! Let us look at a few more derivations, of countries/places, shall we:-).. 1. DEnmark is from "Dhana Marga" 2. Stockholm is from "Shata kamalam"( 100 lotuses)...in fact, did you know,The Sanskrit poet who first visited Stockholm was impressed with the beauty of lotuses in Stockholm that he wrote a poem called "Shata kamalam"(100 lotuses) which was plagiarised and changed to "Daffodils", the famous English poem? ( BTW, I know that the construction "shata kamalam" is grammatically incorrect:-) 3. Corsica was an island of farmers ;it was named "Karshaka Dweepa" ( Farmers island) originally which was changed subsequently to Corsica.. 4. Texas is named after"Takshas" a serpent in Indian mythology..the first Desi who went to Texas saw all those rattlesnakes which reminded him of Takshas; so he named the place Takshas which became Texas subsequently. 5. Saskatchewan was named after an Indian warrior called "sat-shakti-vaan", Alberta was very well known for its "raita" i.e. alabhya raita , which became Alberta) 6. California is named after a lady called Kali, who was a native of the town of "Purnea" in Bihar..."kali kee (p/f)urnea" became California in its Anglicized form, when this lady first settled in California, she and her descendants were harrased by people who lived to the north of California,so she called them "ari- gaN"(ari-enemy, gaN-people, crowd)...this area where they lived i.e. ariguN is now called "Oregon". When this lady went further north, she found it a little too cold and decided to call this cold place "Sheetal"; this place is now called "Seattle". When this lady and her descendants would feel hungry, they'd visit an Indian restaurant ( uDupi, specifically) run by a gentleman from uDupi called "Saletore Lakshmana shetty" and ask for "OOTa"( Kannada for "lunch")....they liked his uDupi cooking so much that they called the place "Saletore Lakshmana Shetty"( Anglicized version "Salt Lake City") and the state "OOTa"( now called "Utah"). After eating this hearty meal, the "Californians" would amuse themsleves by arguing and debating things at a certain spot in the afternoons. This place, where they'd DEBATE DAILY became "nitya vaada vivaada"(which became nityavaada which in turn got shortened to nivaada) This place is now called "Nevada". 7. Britain actually comes from Hindi "Bartan"(vessel), Wales comes from Tamil vEl( spear), London, which is a center of commerce( or barter then) is actually derived from Hindi "lEna- dEna"( exchange) 8. Romania is actually "ramaNeeya"( beautiful in Sanskrit). 9. Athens in Greece is named after "aditi" i.e. aditi became athena who in turn gave her name to athens. "sparta" , famous for its athletes gets its name from Sanskrit "Sphoorti" 10. Spain actually is a corruption of "Sapna" i.e. Svapna "dream", and last but not the very least, the river Danube is a corruption of Dhanayuvati( moneyed maiden) because her waters made all the farmers on either side rich..i.e. Dhanayuvati became Dhanayubati ->dhanayuba-> danube....... Incidentally, none of the "facts" presented above needs any reference..I (discovered/invented) them, depending on your point of view:-),:-)..... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Tue Sep 9 22:00:09 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 15:00:09 -0700 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032283.23782.16367740348490477358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Israel writes: >Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following >snippiets happened to appear yesterday on the Sasialit listserv -- >suggesting that perhaps the utterances of the Pandit in the Hindi >tale weren't wholly made out of whole cloth (so to say)? > >d.i. >B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: > >> p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which >> held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the >> generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me >> particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't >> know much more about it, I'm afraid. David! Could you please ask this gentleman as to whether this is some kind of a family belief or is it some belief in the area where he come from? I know there are families where it is wrong to kill snakes, the story is that the snake curses the family causing its children to have a funny skin coloration- I remember reading about a family in Maharashtra which had this tale to tell....I don't think there is anything generic religious belief about this..... Looking forward to your reply, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From michiya at rh.u-tokai.ac.jp Tue Sep 9 06:24:24 1997 From: michiya at rh.u-tokai.ac.jp (michiya at rh.u-tokai.ac.jp) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 15:24:24 +0900 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227032258.23782.1494030824087518897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 6:29 AM 97.9.9 +0100, Royce Wiles wrote: >Does anyone know the current address (e- or snail-) of Dr. Kenji Watanabe, >formerly Lecturer at Shukutoku Jr. College, Tokyo 181? snail-mail: 4-7-2, Nishimoto-cho, Kokubunji, Tokyo 184 Japan I don't know his e-mail address. Regards, -- Michiya kawajiri Research Institute of Civilization, Tokai University michiya at rh.u-tokai.ac.jp From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Tue Sep 9 05:26:09 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 15:26:09 +1000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227032256.23782.2927275161319301004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the current address (e- or snail-) of Dr. Kenji Watanabe, formerly Lecturer at Shukutoku Jr. College, Tokyo 181? From DKumar6248 at aol.com Tue Sep 9 19:58:00 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 15:58:00 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography: M.B.Emeneau Message-ID: <161227032276.23782.9989484989434916923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, I see some typos in my previous posting. The one I am most concerned about is that I accidentally spelled the name M.B.Emeneau as Emeneaun. I herewith submit my sincere apologies to the great scholar. V. Keerthi Kumar From das at netcom.com Tue Sep 9 23:19:30 1997 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 16:19:30 -0700 Subject: Temple architecture Message-ID: <161227032285.23782.9242590254752983456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Had a question about which direction Shiva faces in a temple. I was thinking that it could be any direction except North (because of the name Daksinamurthi, would not want to face the other way). Anyway, somebody recently mentioned that in Chithamburam temple, Shiva faces North (don't know this to be a fact). Just now idly thumped through a general book on temple architectures. The plans showed dieties facing all directions except North. Another reason not to face North (my guess), is that it will force devotees to face South while praying. Does anybody know whether Shiva can face North? Or any reference which discusses this specific issue? das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From thakarj at box-t.nih.gov Tue Sep 9 20:56:06 1997 From: thakarj at box-t.nih.gov (Jay Thakar) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 16:56:06 -0400 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032278.23782.15749895872901459948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidyasankar: Can you please provide ref to your comment. Thank you. Jay From t_shul at uclink4.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 10 02:43:15 1997 From: t_shul at uclink4.berkeley.edu (Trishul (Travis Smith)) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 18:43:15 -0800 Subject: Temple architecture Message-ID: <161227032291.23782.17687444459797566093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Das Devaraj writes >Had a question about which direction Shiva faces in a temple. >I was thinking that it could be any direction except North >(because of the name Daksinamurthi, would not want to face >the other way). > >Anyway, somebody recently mentioned that in Chithamburam temple, >Shiva faces North (don't know this to be a fact). Just now idly >thumped through a general book on temple architectures. The >plans showed dieties facing all directions except North. Another >reason not to face North (my guess), is that it will force >devotees to face South while praying. > >Does anybody know whether Shiva can face North? Or any reference >which discusses this specific issue? > If your referring to the Shiva _lingam_, its of course difficult to tell where the "face" is, except in stylised representations. In Bengal (esp. the Dakshineswar Kali Temple, made famous by Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa), all of the (12) Shiva temples, as well as the lingam in the shrine are positioned so that the _yoni_ "points" towards the north. And the current head pujari at the temple is quite insistent that this is the correct way for all Shiva lingams to be situated. I couldn't tell you whether this custom holds true in other places... Hope this helps, Trishul From jkirk at micron.net Wed Sep 10 04:53:24 1997 From: jkirk at micron.net (jkirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 22:53:24 -0600 Subject: Q: feline harm Message-ID: <161227032296.23782.4901886295443986215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although scholars are often warned not to seek naturalistic answers to questions such as this one, it occurred to me that in the case of the cat, its prowess in ridding homes of vermin--rats, bugs etc--might have caused this spare the cat attitude. J Kirkpatrick jkrk at micron.net **************************** Narayan S. Raja wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . In my own family (we are Tamil), > my mother and grandmother warned me that if a cat > "lost even one single hair" because of me, I would have > to go to "narakam" (i.e., hell. but temporary). Why > cats in particular? Don't know. > > Regards, > > Raja. From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Wed Sep 10 08:23:56 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 08:23:56 +0000 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:The responsibility Message-ID: <161227032294.23782.8207968467830354414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:24 PM 9/9/97 BST, D.Kumar writes: >Dear members of the Indology List, >Two questions which have been aked of me need to be answered: (1): How can >anyone who calls himself a scholar, can doubt in the same posting on this >List, the very existence of something (he called Dravidian Cryptography may >be "conjectures and coincidences"), and then in the same breath utter "(if it >is there) is exclusively Tamilian"? >....................... >V. Keerthi Kumar ( http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ); email: > dkumar6248 at aol.com > Since the word `kumaran' with `n' ending is a tamilian word and that `n' ending is necessary to get `nAgaram', I meant to say, as far as this word is concerned the inversion/substitution (if it exists, yes if it exists) is exclusively of tamilian origin. sarma. From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Wed Sep 10 08:33:30 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 08:33:30 +0000 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032308.23782.10371420809144999595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:21 AM 9/10/97 BST, Narayan Raja writes: > > >> >Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following > >> >B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: >> > >> >> p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which >> >> held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the >> >> generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me >> >> particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't >> >> know much more about it, I'm afraid. > > >This must be quite a widespread belief, then. >I happen to know that Bapa Rao is Telugu, while, >as I recall, someone from Maharashtra also referred >to such a belief. In my own family (we are Tamil), >my mother and grandmother warned me that if a cat >"lost even one single hair" because of me, I would have >to go to "narakam" (i.e., hell. but temporary). Why >cats in particular? Don't know. > >Regards, > > >Raja. > Yes, killing of cat is believed to be a great sin almost equivalent to brahmahatya and there is a belief that such person's progeny will not survive if the sin is not atoned. sarma. From fp7 at columbia.edu Wed Sep 10 12:40:38 1997 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 08:40:38 -0400 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032310.23782.13912498246961596809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Andrew Cohen wrote: > Re: meditating cats. > > At the "Great Relief" in Mahabalipuram, there is a delightful > representation of a dubious Yogi-- a cat does tapas as mice gather > at his feet to see this marvel. > > Andrew Cohen This reminds me of "Nau sau cuuhe khaa ke billii haj ko calii"--- Having eaten nine hundred mice, the cat went on pilgrimage... From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Sep 10 08:31:34 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 10:31:34 +0200 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032306.23782.3779223651966209086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:52 +0200 9/09/97, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >Didn't you know that Argentina gets its name from Arjuna, the Pandava? > Despite the funny mail of S.Krishna, that's true! Argentina is a Spanish world coming from Latin argentum (silver) and linked to Greek arguros (id.) and Sanskrit Arjuna. They are derived with various suffixes from an eurindian root *arg- (shining white). Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From silk at wmich.edu Wed Sep 10 14:43:32 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 10:43:32 -0400 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032320.23782.6729291586544861326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 18:52 +0200 9/09/97, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >> >>Didn't you know that Argentina gets its name from Arjuna, the Pandava? >> > Despite the funny mail of S.Krishna, that's true! > Argentina is a Spanish world coming from Latin argentum (silver) >and linked to Greek arguros (id.) and Sanskrit Arjuna. They are derived >with various suffixes from an eurindian root *arg- (shining white). Although I think this is not what Dominique meant, what he seems to says in his first line is that "Argentina" is derived from "Arjuna". Of course, what he shows -- that they have the same ROOT (or are cognate) -- is an entirely different matter! I say this only to nip in the bud any possible encouragement of this type of nonsense seen recently on this list by certain people who would not recognize a careful historical linguistic argument if -- to quote an old college professor of mine -- it jumped up and bit them on the ass! Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From silk at wmich.edu Wed Sep 10 14:45:13 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 10:45:13 -0400 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032322.23782.8305195707563695797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This reminds me of "Nau sau cuuhe khaa ke billii haj ko calii"--- Having >eaten nine hundred mice, the cat went on pilgrimage... sort of like Asoka, no? Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From poornima at w-o-i.com Wed Sep 10 11:52:57 1997 From: poornima at w-o-i.com (Poornima) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 11:52:57 +0000 Subject: Temple architecture Message-ID: <161227032300.23782.13820931588028377065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- From: Trishul (Travis Smith)[SMTP:t_shul at uclink4.berkeley.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 8:14 AM To: Members of the list Subject: Re: Temple architecture Shiva is the only God in the Hindu Pantheon, who can face all directions in Temple Architecture. With the exception of Shiva, all Gods do not face the South - as it is the direction of the God of Death - Yama. Shiva, on the other hand faces this direction as Dakshinamurti - The Great Teacher - who dispels ignorance and spreads knowledge all over the world. Poornima Das Devaraj writes >Had a question about which direction Shiva faces in a temple. >I was thinking that it could be any direction except North >(because of the name Daksinamurthi, would not want to face >the other way). > >Anyway, somebody recently mentioned that in Chithamburam temple, >Shiva faces North (don't know this to be a fact). Just now idly >thumped through a general book on temple architectures. The >plans showed dieties facing all directions except North. Another >reason not to face North (my guess), is that it will force >devotees to face South while praying. > >Does anybody know whether Shiva can face North? Or any reference >which discusses this specific issue? > If your referring to the Shiva _lingam_, its of course difficult to tell where the "face" is, except in stylised representations. In Bengal (esp. the Dakshineswar Kali Temple, made famous by Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa), all of the (12) Shiva temples, as well as the lingam in the shrine are positioned so that the _yoni_ "points" towards the north. And the current head pujari at the temple is quite insistent that this is the correct way for all Shiva lingams to be situated. I couldn't tell you whether this custom holds true in other places... Hope this helps, Trishul -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2455 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roheko at classic.msn.com Wed Sep 10 12:52:16 1997 From: roheko at classic.msn.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 12:52:16 +0000 Subject: AW: Rta Message-ID: <161227032312.23782.4816445651363017589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk im Auftrag von John A Grimes Gesendet am: Dienstag, 9. September 1997 19:15 An: Members of the list Betreff: Rta Dear John, I am not sure, but reading your message I thought of a voluminous work of the German scholar Heinrich L?ders and a title like VaruNa Heiner Dear List Members, Does anyone recall a book about Rta? I seem to remember Motilal had one but I can't seem to locate such. Thanks in advance. John Grimes MSU From apsss at uohyd.ernet.in Wed Sep 10 18:01:15 1997 From: apsss at uohyd.ernet.in (Dr Aloka Parasher-Sen) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 13:01:15 -0500 Subject: Study India Program Message-ID: <161227032303.23782.15052577864386918433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List Some time back Kamal Adhikary had asked for information on Study India Programs. Our University is starting one in 1998. Here is some information about it which may of interest to some of you. STUDY INDIA PROGRAMS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HYDERABAD Beginning in 1998 0. About the University The University of Hyderabad (UofH) in India, located in the historic capital city of Andhra Pradesh, is one of the dozen premier universities of post-graduate teaching and research in the country, and is easily regarded as one of the best academic institutions in South Asia. The UofH was the first Central University to be established in 1974 in the culturally and lin- guistically rich southern part of India. Located on a serene and green campus miles away from the hustle and bustle of the city life, and yet in an institution ideally suited for pursuing serious learning programs, this relatively young University outstretches its arm to all those who are looking for an exciting study abroad program of a short duration. A detailed brochure can be had from the O.S.D., Centre for Distance Education, University of Hyderabad, Hyderabad 500046. The advantages of locating a special program of this kind in Hyderabad are many - its rich linguistic and cultural tradition, salubrious climate all the year round, concentration of educa- tional institutions (five major Universities and three institu- tions deemed to be universities), and its connectivity both by air and rail/road with many principal cities of the country. UofH has 218-odd faculty of the University, including 70 Professors, 75 Readers and 73 Lecturers - with a high publication profile (496 books and 3,757 research papers in National and International journals in the last 20 years), and with many na- tional and international awards and honours in different fields. So far, about 6,000 candidates have been awarded degrees of the University including 384 Ph.D. degrees, 1,561 M.Phil. (=Pre-Ph.D. research degree after Master's) degrees and 346 M.Tech. degrees. Besides, it has produced about 4,415 post-graduate students. The present teacher-student ratio is quite favourable: 1:8. 1. The Focus: The STUDY INDIA PROGRAM of the University of Hyderabad focuses on India. It has a special emphasis on the HERITAGE, CONTINUITY AND CHANGE in India. The program is created as an extension of STUDY ABROAD program available in many Univer- sities in the world. It is highly inter-disciplinary in nature, offering a wide variety of 20 courses in the following areas: 3-401: Representing India: Texts, Histories, Theories 3-402: Indian Writing in English 3-403: Ethnographic Approaches to Indian Society 3-504: Indian Cultural Heritage 3-605: India: Society, Culture & Civilization 3-606: Indian Archaeology (From Prehistory to Early history) 3-407: Spiritual Traditions of India 3-508: State & Civil Societies in Contemporary India 3-409: Urban India 3-510: Rural India: Elements of Change 3-411: Rural Economy in India 3-412: India: Geographical Entity 3-513: Indian Classical Dance 3-514: Cinema India 3-415: Indian Folk Life Studies 3-516: Comparative Indian Literature 3-417: Comparative Indian Languages 3-518: Intensive Hindi Program 3-519: Intensive Telugu Program 3-620: Independent Study Program [*] * Under Independent Study Program, the special focus will be on GENDER STUDIES; HUMAN RIGHTS; DIASPORA STUDIES; TRANSLATION STUDIES; NATURAL LANGUAGE PROCESSING; FOLKLORE STUDIES; AREA STUDIES; INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS STUDIES. 2. Why join SIP at UofH? There are many reasons as to why one may do SIP at this University other than the variety or attractive (and variable) fee structure. These are the distinct advantages: * Internationally acclaimed/honored faculty * A large number of faculty have research experience abroad * Many teachers have been visiting professors abroad * SIP has a modular structure - extremely flexible * SIP will surely be a value-addition program for its takers * SIP at the UofH is quite economical with a flexible tuition fee related to the credits earned and to the parent University's pattern * A polution-free naturally endowed campus with about 1000 hect. * One of the few Universities in India where the Semester system has been followed so rigorously in the last two decades * A fully computerized library (the first of its kind in India) * A well-equipped computer centre networked to all schools * E-mail/internet facilities (not readily available elsewhere) * A heterogeneous campus with already some international students * Well-connected campus away from the hustle of city life 3. Accreditation: The courses being offered as listed here range from levels 2000 to 6000 equivalents, and accordingly 2 to 6 credits could be earned by the students attending them from their parent Universities. It is, however, possible that different Universities abroad will recognize different sets of these cours- es and may ask its students to opt for some among them. 4. Specialized Program: The list of courses as described in this chapter is only indicative of what the University can offer. But if necessary, the University can create specialized programs and packages of courses for particular countries or participating Universities. Teaching will include lectures, tutorials (by doctoral and post-doc students/Teaching Assistants), discussions, practicals or hands-on experience), seminars, field-work, take-home and other assignments, project reports, and a week-long trip to different parts of India (at least, South India). For certain courses, audio-video component and performances will also be employed. Evaluation here will include teacher evaluation, peer evaluation as well as for feed-back, course-evaluation to be done by students. Advanced reading lists to be made available so that partici- pating students can come with some preparation. In most cases, an orientation is expected to be organized by the participating Universities from abroad. But a week-long orientation can be organized by this University, too under a special arrangement. 5. Timing: At the moment, the courses are being organized on a quarter pattern (10 weeks of course-work followed by two weeks of field tour/trips), beginning three times a year - around the second week of January, June and September every year. However, these could also be offered on a semester pattern of 16 weeks of teaching and two weeks of trips and tours. 6. Quantum of Options at a given time: The maximum credits possi- ble to earn in a given quarter will vary between 12 and 16. Depending on registration and faculty availability (which fact could be checked easily through e-mail with the Program Director), at least six courses are to be offered every quarter. 7. Quantum of Students under SIP: While there is theoretically no upper limit of students admitted under SIP, it is not expected to be a crowded program. The idea is to take special care of each student. But it is expected that the participating Universities will send at least 5 to 10 students for a particular quarter. For a course to be viable, there must at least be 3 to 4 registrants. 8. Teaching medium, methods and evaluation: The medium of in- struction will be English in which proficiency is essential. Teaching will include lectures, tutorials, discussions, practi- cals, seminars, field-work, take-home and other assignments, project reports, and a week-long trip to places of interest. 9. Orientation/Preparatory Help: Advanced reading lists to be made available so that students can come with some preparation. 10. Who can apply?: The program is aimed at overseas students from all countries provided they meet the general pre-requisite of proficiency in English and special pre-requisites, if any. The following could be possible applicants: * Universities and their International Studies divisions * Study Abroad Program Directors of Universities & Colleges * Heads of Academic Programs or Departments of Universities * Universities with South Asia/Area Studies program * Individual students could also apply, but getting accredita- tion will be their own responsibility * Higher Education Institutes or Ministries of Education * NRI groups or associations could also send in requests * Trade or Business delegations or groups (for crash courses) * Foreign scholars/technocrats already in India could also apply * Individuals who may only wish to audit or attend courses 11. A Modular Structure: The SIP has been envisaged as a Modular Program with three modules - the first one being introductory and panoramic, where either of these courses could be given: Level 2000 ; No.1-200 INDIA TODAY (Credits: 2) Level 3000 ; No.1-300 INDIAN CULTURAL HERITAGE (Cr: 2) All the courses described above could be arranged under both 12- week module (10 weeks of teaching plus 2 weeks of India-travel) [=MODULE 3] or five- to six-week MODULE 2 upon request. 12. Fee Structure: Tuition fee payable by a student will have four components: (1) Tuition fee, if any, payable to the parent University: [?] (2) TUITION payable to UNIVERSITY OF HYDERABAD: US $ 2,000 [or, roughly US $150 to US $160 per credit; however, for the students paying higher fee to their parent University, the UofH tuition will be higher/negotiable] * For non-degree participants/For auditing : US $ 1,000 * For the NRI-groups sponsoring a candidate : US $ 2,000 (III) International and within India Travel & Visa cost: Variable (IV) Boarding & Lodging/Misc./Local transport :[Approx] US $ 800 To summarize, including air-fare, the candidates are expect- ed to spend about US $ 4,300 for a SIP quarter. CONTACT (FOR further INFORMATION): ************************************************************************* Professor UDAYA NARAYANA SINGH Professor of Linguistics and Head, CALTS Director, Study India Program (SIP) University of Hyderabad, Hyderabad 500046 INDIA E-mail: Telephone: Residence (091-040-)3010640 Office: 3010500; Extn. 3650 ************************************************************************* Best Wishes ALOKA PARASHER-SEN Department of History University of Hyderabad, Hyderabad-500 046, Andhra Pradesh Email : apsss at uohyd.ernet.in From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Sep 10 23:38:36 1997 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 16:38:36 -0700 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032326.23782.9407137375133750853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:33 PM 9/9/97 BST, Jay Thakar wrote: >In the history of Mexico, it is mentioned that Mexico was >established by people who came from east. You are probably referring to the legend of Quetzalcoatl, a very important Middle American god. He is described as a bearded person who arrived from the East, and also left in that direction. Actually, to early Spanish conquerors and Catholic scholars this was a sure reference to Saint Thomas, who, they believed, had landed on American shores and preached Christianity. This belief was common for a long time. In the 19th century, a well-known Mexican Dominican friar and political thinker, Servando Teresa de Mier, not only believed this, but was sure that the religion of the Mexicans was a corruption of Christianity, and that the name of Mexico (originally pronounced Meshico) came from the Hebrew Mashiah (Messiah), 'the annointed one.' And don't forget that, according to the Book of Mormon, all Native Americans are descendants of the 'lost tribes of Israel.' > May be there is more to the >stories of Pandavas going to PATAL and getting married to local girls, and >having kids, e.g.,. GHATOTKUCH, the son of BHIMA.It is said that Hastinapur >was built by PATAL people.Keep looking, probably ther is more to discover. Discoveries of this kind are, too often, in the eye of the discoverer. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From poornima at w-o-i.com Wed Sep 10 17:45:16 1997 From: poornima at w-o-i.com (Poornima) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 17:45:16 +0000 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032317.23782.10337399155404155366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> More information on the cat issue: I am a Hindu, and throughout my childhood I was told that if one killed a cat, one would have to go to the holy site of Kashi (Benares), where one could repent for the sin by bathing in the Ganges. It is to be noted that a similar form of atonement exists for the killing of a Brahmin. Poornima ---------- From: S Krishna[SMTP:mahadevasiva at hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 4:32 AM To: Members of the list Subject: Re: Q: mArjArahatyA David Israel writes: >Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following >snippiets happened to appear yesterday on the Sasialit listserv -- >suggesting that perhaps the utterances of the Pandit in the Hindi >tale weren't wholly made out of whole cloth (so to say)? > >d.i. >B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: > >> p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which >> held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the >> generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me >> particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't >> know much more about it, I'm afraid. David! Could you please ask this gentleman as to whether this is some kind of a family belief or is it some belief in the area where he come from? I know there are families where it is wrong to kill snakes, the story is that the snake curses the family causing its children to have a funny skin coloration- I remember reading about a family in Maharashtra which had this tale to tell....I don't think there is anything generic religious belief about this..... Looking forward to your reply, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2431 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Sep 10 16:33:36 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 18:33:36 +0200 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032324.23782.13098926863197768287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As Jonathan Silk and S.Krishna have understand it about Argentina and Arjuna, 'that's true' was just a joke. One thing is clear: leaving numerous and structured phonetical, morphological and semantical correspondancies, thousands of good links can be found just by the effect of the great numbers' law, hence without any serious proof. The phonetical laws fail when a word is borrowed, but borrowing of words is rare and, usually, a word is borrowed when the thing is borrowed, just because it was unnamed before. Hence, universal words are unlikely to be borrowed. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 11 02:17:42 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 19:17:42 -0700 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032328.23782.16339593172503037118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DERIVATIONS OF CERTAIN KEY WORDS IN GONZALEZ REIMANNS POSTS(RESEARCH PAPER):-) Luis Gonzalez Reimann writes: >You are probably referring to the legend of Quetzalcoatl, a very ------------ Aha! You didn't know that Queztalcoatl was derived from Skt + Hindi "Shvetaachala Kotwal" did you? i.e. he was a Kotwal in India and came from some place called Shvetaachalam.... >important Middle American god. He is described as a bearded person >who arrived from the East, and also left in that direction. America is derived from "Amiron kaa desh"( country of rich people!) i.e. "amironkaa" became America:-) >Catholic scholars Isn't Catholic the european mispronounciation of Kathakali?( they dropped a "k" inbetween).... >this was a sure reference to Saint Thomas, who, they believed, had Thomas is derived from Dharma i.e. Skt Dharma- Dhamma- Thaama- Thoma ( The "s" at the end of Thomas stands for Sanskrit, it is a secret shorthand for keeping track of where they copied the word from)... > In the 19th century, a well-known Mexican Dominican friar and "Mexica" is derived from Sanskrit "Makshika"( mosquito) when the Indians( the true blueblooded variety,, not the false variety:-) found in this country, came from Bharat to this country and were so shocked to see the huge mosquitoes in Mexico that they named it "Makshikadesha" which got shortened to "Mexico") The word "dominican" being used here is further proof of the fact stated above, becauuse "dOma"( as in dominican) is "mosquito" in Telugu.... >political thinker, Servando Teresa de Mier, not only believed this, Servando is a vikrti of sarvAnanda, Teresa is a corruption of "patresha"( Patresh is a name in Bengal), de Mier is from "Dheemar" ( a village in the Konkan) people from this village took on the name Dheemarkar i.e. Sarvaananda Patresha Dheemarkar was a converted Goan Christian > Hebrew Mashiah (Messiah), 'the annointed one.' Messiah is derived from Sanskrit "Moksha" i.e. Moksha became Mosha which became Messiah, also Moses is derived from "Moksha"...therefore "Mokshadaayaka" became Hebrew Messiah....if you wondering where the "iah" ending in "Messiah" came from, may I point out it also appears in names like Ramiah, Krishniah etc.... >And don't forget that, according to the Book of Mormon, all Native >Americans are descendants of the 'lost tribes of Israel.' "Mormon" is derived from "Koorman" i.e. the "koormAvatara..." "Israel" is from "Ishvara"( The "v" became a "l" and got misplaced), the "Sh'ma Israel" i.e. the prayer that is formally recited at the begining of any Jewish ritual is actually from "Kshama Ishvara")...as for all the Mormons settling in Salt Lake City and Utah and their derivations , please refer to my earlier *research paper* *published* yesterday in "Daily Journal of Indology":-)..... >Discoveries of this kind are, too often, in the eye of the discoverer. The above *research paper*, researched and written by me over a period of FIFTEEN MINUTES( yes fifteen loooooooong minutes) proves the above statement beyond all doubt.Please also note that fiction, sometimes passes for fact.... >Luis Gonzalez Reimann P.S: Dunno about Luis, but Gonzalez is a corruption of "gangAjalesh" ( I know that in Tamil Nadu, there are temples like gangAdheeShvarar and jalangAdheeshvarar, gangajalesh is a very clever way of combining the names of these two dieties) Reimann is obviously from Skt"ShreemAn":-) Cheers, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jaybee at tm.net.my Wed Sep 10 13:14:53 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (jayabarathi) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 21:14:53 +0800 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032314.23782.10475059115221077232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:41 PM 9/10/97 BST, you wrote: >At 01:21 AM 9/10/97 BST, Narayan Raja writes: >> Dear members of the list, Cat-slaughter is not only deemed a sin among the Hindus, but also among some other races as well. Probably the original cause is shrouded in the mists of the remote past. The Celts had a ceremony where cats were burned alive. But the Ancient Egyptians held cats in very great reverance.They even mummified cats. Black cats are said to be associated with witch-craft. This is not a beleif, just confined to the the West alone. Among the Malays of South East Asia, black cats are associated with black magic. The Malay sorceresses or female "bomohs", have black cats with them. There are some Malay Black Magic rites which involve black cats. To the Malays, the dog is taboo. But the cat is a much endeared animal.They would'nt dream of killing a cat at all. You may see Malay households feeding even stray cats. There is hardly a family which does not have household cats. Yours Jayabarathi Malaysia > >>> >Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following >> >>> >B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: >>> > >>> >> p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which >>> >> held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the >>> >> generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me >>> >> particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't >>> >> know much more about it, I'm afraid. >> >> >>This must be quite a widespread belief, then. >>I happen to know that Bapa Rao is Telugu, while, >>as I recall, someone from Maharashtra also referred >>to such a belief. In my own family (we are Tamil), >>my mother and grandmother warned me that if a cat >>"lost even one single hair" because of me, I would have >>to go to "narakam" (i.e., hell. but temporary). Why >>cats in particular? Don't know. >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Raja. >> > >Yes, killing of cat is believed to be a great sin almost equivalent to >brahmahatya and there is a belief that such person's progeny will not >survive if the sin is not atoned. > >sarma. > > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Sep 11 04:50:58 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 00:50:58 -0400 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032330.23782.2744773460501821897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-09 17:56:25 EDT, mahadevasiva at hotmail.com writes: << 6. California is named after a lady called Kali, who was a native of the town of "Purnea" in Bihar..."kali kee (p/f)urnea" became California in its Anglicized form, when this lady first settled in California, she and her descendants were harrased by people who lived to the north of California,so she called them "ari- gaN"(ari-enemy, gaN-people, crowd)...this area where they lived i.e. ariguN is now called "Oregon". >> The following is an interesting alternative etymology for 'California' as provided by the late ZankarAcArya of Kanchipuram, Sri Chandrasekarendra Sarasvathi, given in the Tamil book 'teyvattin kural', volume 1, page. 168-169. (The following is a rough translation.) "Searching for the sacrificial horse, the Sagaras kept digging and went to the netherworld. The sea which was formed as a result is called 'sAgara'. Finally, they saw the horse near the hermitage of maharishi kapila. Thinking that he had stolen the horse, they attacked him. He burnt them to ashes just by his look. This is a story in Ramayana. If we assume that USA which is the antipode of our country is the netherworld, the KapilAraNya (like maturai changing to marutai) might have changed into kalipAraNya and then into California. Near that (California) there are islands called Horse Island and Ash Island." In his efforts to show that Hinduism was the original world-wide religion, he also says the following. the Egyptian name Rameses [sic] is related to Rama Aztec is from Astika Sahara might be from sAgara Eve is from jIva Adam is from AtmA The title of the chapter is 'ulakam paraviya matam' meaning 'the religion which had spread throughout the world'. Clearly, as can be seen from his views expressed several times in this multi-volume work, Sri Chandrasekarendra Sarasvathi was a precursor to the hindutva ideologists of today. Regards S. Palaniappan From gldnreef at PRIMENET.COM Thu Sep 11 14:23:04 1997 From: gldnreef at PRIMENET.COM (Trimble) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 07:23:04 -0700 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032341.23782.2096414869903790109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:16 PM 9/10/97 BST, S Krishna wrote: There was a >Brahmin lady who happened to eat food that wasn't intended for her and >on subsequent enquiries, accused a cat that happened to be a pet of the >local Goddess( I get the impression that he means "Folk Goddess"/Village >Diety here). The Goddess took revenge by killing the Brahmin womens >children. On propriating the Goddess's cat, the woman managed to get >back her children. So, he says "SOME Hindus regard it >sinful to kill a cat". I don't recall if it has already been mentioned that cats often appear in conjunction with stories like this about the goddess .Sa.s.thii; nor do I know if any of the stories about her are canonical. W. Trimble From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Sep 11 14:04:37 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 09:04:37 -0500 Subject: Tobacco (Rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032338.23782.17166882006444308410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Interesting derivation of California! The late Chandrasekarendra Sarasvathi of Kanchi Sankaracharya Math also has a derivation for Alexander. Printed many times in magazines like Kalaimakal and his collected volumes of speeches. A rough translation: "Many school children in India cannot pronounce the word 'school' right. They call it as 'iscool'. In the same manner, Skanda gets pronounced as 'Iskanda'. We all know that 'Al' is the equivalent of 'The' in Arabic. Al + Iskanda ==> Alexander". Note the switching of places between Sikandar and Alexander too! N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From C.Wooff at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Thu Sep 11 08:14:39 1997 From: C.Wooff at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Chris Wooff) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 09:14:39 +0100 Subject: IMPORTANT list changes PLEASE READ Message-ID: <161227032332.23782.7956175017194777034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the jobs we are carrying out over the summer is moving all local email lists to a new list server. Last night the Indology list was moved. You have received this message because you are a member of this list. It is important that you take note of the following: 1) The listname is unchanged and you should continue post to indology at liverpool.ac.uk exactly as before. 2) The email address of the new list server is listserv at liverpool.ac.uk (listproc is the old server and should not be used). 3) The syntax of most of the commands is similar, if you want chapter and verse then send listserv the message: help 4) The new server provides better facilities for offering list archives. Archives are still available via email. In addition, you can access them at the following URL: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html ------------------------------------------------------------ Chris Wooff (C.Wooff at liv.ac.uk, ....mcsun!uknet!liv!C.Wooff) Sent with Simeon Version 4.1.2 Build 32 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 11 08:34:42 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 09:34:42 +0100 Subject: IMPORTANT list changes PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032334.23782.3954706283289907970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Chris, The new, searchable INDOLOGY archive is fantastic, and an extremely substantial enhancement of the INDOLOGY list. I should like to thank you and Alan heartily for the new developments. I strongly urge INDOLOGY members to explore the new facilities that the Liverpool team have provided. You may find that this new web-based interface may become your main way of interacting with the INDOLOGY list. The archives are completely up-to-date, fully searchable, indexed in several ways, and the internet links and addresses cited in messages are all clickable. Once again, I should like to thank Chris Wooff and Alan Thew, and the University of Liverpool, for their generous support over hte years for this discussion forum. I think it is not an exaggeration to say that for those who have used it seriously, INDOLOGY has contributed significantly to the academic and professional environment in which we conduct our work. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 11 08:35:13 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 09:35:13 +0100 Subject: IMPORTANT list changes PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032337.23782.13212138059337215722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Links to the new INDOLOGY services have been added to the main INDOLOGY web page. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Thu Sep 11 19:42:47 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 12:42:47 -0700 Subject: Reverse Transliterations .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032345.23782.162797484722067457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Literature searches for Indian publications from various library catalogs throw up some fine specimens of reverse transliterations. Obviously, the operations involved in transliterating from English to Indian languages and back to English are not reversible. Examples, Caukhamba Samskrta Siriza Aphisa (Series Office), Gita/Niranayasagara/Bharati Presa (Press), Sri Vani Vilas Piras (Press, from Tamil), Venkatesvara stim-presa (Steam Press), Krishnadasa Akadami (Academy), Istarna Buka Linkarsa (Eastern Book Linkers), Mahesa Libreri (Library), Samskrta Kaleja (College), Yoga Misana (Mission), Punjaba Ekonamikala (Economical) Yantralaya, Printing Byuro (Bureau), Pirintin Pyuro (Printing Bureau, from Tamil) Mithila Risarca Insticyuta (Research Institute) Parimala Publikesansa (Publications), ........ Puplikesan (Publication, from Tamil), Hikkinpatams (Higginbothams, from Tamil), Banarasa Siti (city), Yunivarsiti Ap Madras (University of Madras), Sola Ejenta (Sole Agent), Buk Dipo (Book Depot), Puk Tipo (Book Depot, from Tamil), Tirast (Trust), .... The trophy goes to a book from Calcutta, published by, Di Sankara Hal enda Sankara Institiut aph Philasaphi enda Kalcar (The Sankara Hall and Sankara Institute of Philosophy and Culture) Shouldn't Western libraries think of ways to identify English words written in Indian scripts, and rewrite them in standard English spelling? An exception needs to be made only in the case of Akademi (as in Sangeet Natak Akademi). Cheers, Vidyasankar From pdb1 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Sep 11 21:05:01 1997 From: pdb1 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Peter D Banos) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 17:05:01 -0400 Subject: Reverse Transliterations .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032347.23782.18059673039995390182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > Literature searches for Indian publications from various library catalogs > throw up some fine specimens of reverse transliterations. The examples cited are just the tip of the iceberg. My job includes copy-cataloguing Indian imprints and I see these all the time. Just this afternoon I handled an item from Ejukeshnal Buk Ha'us (Educational Book House), and a couple from Atmarama enda Samsa (Atma Ram and Sons). It took me the longest time to figure out that the Bengali-language publishing house "De'ja" wasn't like in "deja vu" but rather "De's." As for what became of the "Women for Women Research and Study Group," I will leave it to your imagination... -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Sep 11 17:00:33 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 19:00:33 +0200 Subject: Tobacco (Rolled in cryptography) In-Reply-To: <01INIEJ48N8Y003Q1I@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227032343.23782.5926751797228791142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:04 +0200 11/09/97, N. Ganesan wrote: >Interesting derivation of California! The late Chandrasekarendra >Sarasvathi of Kanchi Sankaracharya Math also has a derivation for >Alexander. Printed many times in magazines like Kalaimakal >and his collected volumes of speeches. > >A rough translation: "Many school children in India cannot pronounce >the word 'school' right. They call it as 'iscool'. In the same manner, >Skanda gets pronounced as 'Iskanda'. We all know that 'Al' is >the equivalent of 'The' in Arabic. Al + Iskanda ==> Alexander". > >Note the switching of places between Sikandar and Alexander too! > >N. Ganesan >nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Alas, that's not true! Alexandros is an old Greek word, compound of anEr 'man, heroe' and alexO 'to protect'. Both are respectively connected with Sanskrit nara and rakSati. Before Philip's son, this was too an other name of the Trojan Paris who raped Helen. The Macedonian king has established many towns with his name: Alexandria, Alexandrette, &c. Turks abbreviate the long borrowed names and don't accept names beginning with two consonants: Konstantinopolis becomes Stanpol, and with a prefixed 'i' becomes Istambul; Smyrne becomes Izmir and an Alexandrie becomes Iskenderum. Nothing to do with Skanda (there is evidence Alexander was not an Indian but a Greek) nor the arabic article (there were no Arabs here at this time) nor a new Indian pronunciation (Does say the children *iSkanda ?). Your source was not very well informed about the Mediterranean languages ... Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri Sep 12 02:08:45 1997 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 21:08:45 -0500 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032353.23782.14282484176595625394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 06:16 PM 9/10/97 BST, S Krishna wrote: > There was a >>Brahmin lady who happened to eat food that wasn't intended for her and >>on subsequent enquiries, accused a cat that happened to be a pet of the >>local Goddess( I get the impression that he means "Folk Goddess"/Village >>Diety here). The Goddess took revenge by killing the Brahmin womens >>children. On propriating the Goddess's cat, the woman managed to get >>back her children. So, he says "SOME Hindus regard it >>sinful to kill a cat". > >I don't recall if it has already been mentioned that cats often appear in >conjunction with stories like this about the goddess .Sa.s.thii; nor do I >know if any of the stories about her are canonical. > >W. Trimble Sounds like we're coming full circle to last summer's thread about Durga's lion, which I (still) can trace back to analogues in Kusana coinage and Ishtar, and Sekhmet, the lion-headed goddess of ancient Egypt, while we're at it! Seriously, Michael Rabe P.S. Three cheers for the haasya-rasam from S Krishna, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan and N. Ganesan From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Thu Sep 11 22:28:25 1997 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (pwyzlic) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 00:28:25 +0200 Subject: Reverse Transliterations .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032350.23782.5321272120719941036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Caukhamba Samskrta Siriza Aphisa (Series Office), > Gita/Niranayasagara/Bharati Presa (Press), [...] > Di Sankara Hal enda Sankara Institiut aph Philasaphi enda Kalcar > (The Sankara Hall and Sankara Institute of Philosophy and Culture) > > Shouldn't Western libraries think of ways to identify English words > written in Indian scripts, and rewrite them in standard English > spelling? An exception needs to be made only in the case of Akademi > (as in Sangeet Natak Akademi). I don't see harm in it. One of the main principles of book cataloging is -- as I understand it -- to represent the titlepage as it is and not what should be there. If the title is printed in Indian characters it makes sense to reproduce them in Roman transliteration and in a standardized way. With "aphisa" and "presa" and the like, though it might look funny at first sight. Of course the names of publishers or the series are not essential parts of the title like the author or the title of the work itself. But I think it breaks the principle of making a uniform transliteration of the title when changing "incorrect" to "correct" forms. You will never know where to begin and where to end. \bye Peter -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 12 02:36:50 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 03:36:50 +0100 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032356.23782.12406378074678937924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:33 PM 9/10/97 +0200, Dominique writes: > The phonetical laws fail when a word is borrowed, but borrowing of >words is rare and, usually, a word is borrowed when the thing is borrowed, >just because it was unnamed before. Hence, universal words are unlikely to >be borrowed. > Regards, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > Is this confined to nouns? What is the current thinking concerning one dhAtu (root) representing many actions (e.g., `divu krIda vijigIsha vyavahara dyuti stuti mOda mada swapna kanti gatishu') and one action being represented by many dhAtus in sanskrit. sarma. From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 12 01:23:16 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 06:53:16 +0530 Subject: Indology website:http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html Message-ID: <161227032352.23782.17833447321541444636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Hurray! The website comes alive beautifully. Thanks indeed for all those involved who have made this website such a lively experience. Regards. Kalyanaraman. At 09:35 AM 9/11/97 +0100, you wrote: >Links to the new INDOLOGY services have been added to the main INDOLOGY >web page. > >All the best, >Dominik > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine >email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England > FAX: 44 171 611 8545 > > From jai at FLEX.COM Fri Sep 12 19:20:02 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 09:20:02 -1000 Subject: Rare papers on Buddhist religion, philosophy missing Message-ID: <161227032373.23782.4664671478748386393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rare papers on Buddhist religion, philosophy missing By Subhash Pathak The Hindustan Times August 25, 1997 World acclaimed research papers and rare books of the Bihar Research Society are mysteriously missing due to neglect by the society staff and the State Government. Rarest manuscripts of Rahul Sankrityayan brought from Tibet have not been seen for ages. What is disturbing is that certain terms from abroad are reportedly at work preparing microfilms of these priceless papers with the connivance of vested interests. Notably, the society, which was established way back in 1915 for facilitating historical research and archaeological references, has in its proud possession the rarest manuscripts on Buddhist religion and philosophy, treatises on historical and cultural heritage, original manuscripts on medicine and tantra, besides a number of film and glass negatives. All these had been in great demand among research scholars not only of the country but also those of other countries like Britain, America. France, Germany, Japan, China, Thailand and Sri Lanka -- among others. But disappearance of thousands of books, research papers and manuscripts under mysterious circumstances from the society, and decay of other collection for want of proper care and scientific treatment, has sent shockwaves among the historical and cultural research scholars. One of the prominent members of the society and eminenet sociologist, Prof Hetukar Jha and former Director of Archaeology, Bihar, Mr Prakash Charan Prasad, too had voiced their concern over the dwindling number of collections. They suspect that precious treasures of the country are being smuggled. They said that the recent visit by officials of the society to Japan and subsequent agreement with a Japanese firm for publishing some manuscripts without taking formal permission from the Government only lent credence to the apprehension. It may he noted that a team of four Japanese scholars comprising Prof Kazuo Azuma and Hidomi Yaita, had visited the society a few years ago and had discussions with the registrar of the society, Mr Gopi Raman Chaudhary. The team stayed at a local hotel for ten days where Mr Chaudhary helped them make microfilms of several priceless manuscripts, as revealed by Dr Shiv Kumar Mishra of the society. According to one section of the officials any investigating agency would now he handicapped for the fact that index card of the missing manuscripts were not prepared. They were documented properly. A list of some journals negatives and manuscripts, however, was published a few years back. It contained a lot of discrepancies as many collections were not even mentioned, added Prof Hetukar Jha. Confirming that thousands of books and journals were taken by some high-profile officials and members of the society, a senior member of the society on the condition of anonymity, said that these could not be recovered now. Admittedly, all norms were thrown to the winds regarding issuance of books to the society members. As per the norms, one member is entitled to take only six books for a period of one month. But hundreds of books are still in the possession of the society members for over a decade now. Moreover, there is no catalogue of books in the society. Nor is there any despatch register maintains since 1960, said Dr S. K. Mishra. Even though the condition the society, headed by former Chief Minister Jagannath Mishra, is deteriorating day by day, its general secretary, Prof P.N. Ojha, has not been attending the office for the last two-and-a-half years. Meanwhile, the society has virtually been closed to research scholars as the society's employees have remained on strike for the last four months to protest the dwindling number of valuable books, journals and rare manuscripts for want of adequate care as also non-payment of their salaries for the last four years. Expressing serious concern over the plight of the society and its staff, Dr Prakash Charan Prasad has urged the Central Government to intervene in the matter and declare it as a national heritage. Otherwise, the rarest of all collections would soon be lost forever. The BRS registrar, Mr Gopi Raman Chaudhary was not available for comments. End of authorized reproduction. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai http://members.aol.com/Jyotishi Om Shanti From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Sep 12 20:21:57 1997 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 12:21:57 -0800 Subject: Job Opening Message-ID: <161227032371.23782.4102228882553244916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Times POSITION AVAILABLE IN PUNJABI LANGUAGE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT BERKELEY. Times Pending budgetary resources the Department of South and Southeast Studies at the University of California, Berkeley invites applications for a part-time, Lecturer in Punjabi Language. Contingent upon extramural funding the appointment will begin with Academic Year 1998-99 at 67%. The candidate chosen for the position will teach Punjabi 1A (Introductory Punjabi) and Punjabi 100A (Intermediate Punjabi) during the Fall semester 1998 and Punjabi 1B (Introductory Punjabi) and Punjabi 100B (Intermediate Punjabi) during the Spring semester 1999. Contingent upon satisfactory enrollments and continued extramural funding, the appointment may be renewed for academic year 1999-2000. The salary of the appointment will be commensurate with the successful applicant's experience. Applicants must possess native or near-native fluency in Punjabi and will be able to read and write the language in the Gurmukhi, Urdu, and Nagari scripts. A minimum of the M.A. degree in Punjabi Language or Literature or a closely related field such as linguistics is required. Experience in teaching Punjabi language to both Punjabi speaking and non-Punjabi speaking students is essential. Applications along with three letters of reference, a detailed curriculum vitae, samples of any Punjabi teaching materials authored by the applicant and, where available, evaluations of past teaching of Punjabi should be directed to: The Chair, Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies #2540, University of California at Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720-2540. APPLICATION DEADLINE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1998 The University of California is an Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action Employer. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Chairman Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies Center for South Asia Studies University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Fri Sep 12 21:54:46 1997 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 13:54:46 -0800 Subject: Tobacco and gods Message-ID: <161227032410.23782.1911899587773040794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is related to N. Ganesan's 12 Sep 1997 14:42:04 -0600 message on "Tobacco as Messenger." The Subhaa.sita-ratna-bhaa.n.daagaara (8th edn of 1952), p. 100, has 7 Skt verses on tobacco -- most quite insightful. The third among them, untraced, is particularly well-known: bi.daujaa.h puraa p.r.s.tavaan padma-yoni.m dharitrii-tale saara-bhuuta.m kim asti / caturbhir mukhair ity avocad viri;ncis tamaakhus tamaakhus tamaakhus tamaakhu.h // Tr.: Once in the past, Indra asked Brahmaa, "What is the most essential (or choicest) thing on the surface of the Earth?" With (all) his four mouths, Brahmaa responded, "tobacco, tobacco, tobacco, tobacco!.? A related joke exists in the case of the idol of Vi.t.thala/Vi.thobaa or Paa.n.dura:nga at Pa.n.dhara-pura in Maharashtra. In it, the idol is interpreted as speaking about tobacco. The hands of the idol, resting near the waist, tell us what the height of the tobacco plant is. (In the Paa.n.dura:ngaa.s.taka (wrongly) attributed to ;Sa?karaacaarya, the hands tell the devotee that, for them, the ocean of transmiration will be only so deep.) Of these, the hand on the right, opened in the direction of the spectator and holding part of a plant, informs us about the size of the tobacco leaf. (In serious interpretations, this plant part is taken to be a lotus stem.) The left hand,resting on the hip while holding a conch , instructs us that tobacco should be consumed in moderate quantities. (I may not be accurate in the latter two details or there may be other versions about them.) A Marathi short story by D.M. Mirasdar (I do not recall the title at the moment) utilizes this local joke. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Sep 12 20:42:04 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 14:42:04 -0600 Subject: Tobacco as Messenger Message-ID: <161227032375.23782.15790895365177100866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 9/12/97 Tobacco As Messenger ********************* There is a fine messenger poem, like Kalidasa's Meghaduutam, in Tamil from 18th century where Tobacco is used as the messenger to go to Lord Murugan/Subrahmanya of Pazhani. It has 59 couplets (kaNNi) and the great U. V. Saminathaiyar edited this in 1939. "Pukaiyilai viTu tuutu" came out in second edition in 1956. The author of the work is "Seenicarkkaraip Pulavar". In the first 53 couplets, many tales connected with Tobacco are narrated. In Viralimalai, they offer Cigars to Murugan. As the main legend goes, there was litigation in the court of Devas once. The Trimurtis were given Bilva, Tulasi and Tobacco respectively. Siva lost the Bilva leaves by the waves of Ganga. The Milky ocean took care of the Tulasi of Vishnu. Brahma has given Tobacco to his wife-cum-tongue (Sarasvathi) for safekeeping and thus the leaf escaped from getting lost. Only Brahma could bring it to the Court and wins the case. Hence, the name brahmapathram. In this book, Tobacco is compared to Siva, Vishnu, Brahma, Tamil, Murugan using slesa. Let me just tell the ones for Siva. Siva Tobacco 1) pukai uTaiyatu Siva pujas are full of fragrant * Produces smoke smokes * 2) tampam pOlvatu sthamba - * Cigars look like lingodhbhava myth * a pillar 3) anal Entuvatu carries fire * Has fire while in use (Nataraja image) * 4) nuniyil Has Vibhuti on the * has ash at the tip caampalai uTaiyatu forehead. * etc., Dr. Jayabarathi has posted a variant of this story. It will be nice to know whether he heard the story from somebody who may not know that "pukaiyilaiviTu tuutu' exists? Regards, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 21:15:39 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 20:15:39 -0100 Subject: Qe: gandhavattvavat Message-ID: <161227032359.23782.1547170569673607917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members: In order to explicate that existence (sattva) is asAdhAraNAnaikAntika hetu, VAcaspatimizra gives 'gandhavattva' as an example in his TAtparyaTIkA (NyAyadarzanam, ed. T. Nyaya-Tarkatirtha,1985: 841.9). In their refutations of this view of VAcaspatimizra, both JjAnasrImitra and RatnakIrti quote this example (JN 2ed. A. Thakur, 1987: 50.13 and RN 2ed. A. Thakur, 1975: 80.8). It seems that the 'gandhavattva' is well-known example to both sides of debaters. So far, however, I have not succeeded in identifying the source of the example. I would appreciate it in advance if somebody helps me with this. Jeson Woo A Visiting Scholar Dept. of Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 21:15:39 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 20:15:39 -0100 Subject: dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227032360.23782.18105362282347290197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See David White's book -Myths of the Dog-Man-, Chicago 1991. ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 21:32:02 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 20:32:02 -0100 Subject: AW: cAra Message-ID: <161227032362.23782.7151471749198231213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I can agree. So can you help me also with the term praticAra, which is mentioned together with cAra? Both are part of the list of 72 arts which a young m a n has to be taught (correct English??) Heiner -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk im Auftrag von Dominique.Thillaud Gesendet am: Dienstag, 26. August 1997 13:47 An: Members of the list Betreff: Re: cAra At 14:12 +0200 25/08/97, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: >The term cAra is explained by the various scholars as "spy". The Buddhist >canon has not one example like this. The Jains commentators interpret cAra as >something like "Astrology" or better, I am not sure, as "making a Horoskop >(german)". I suppose the explanation "spy" is not right. Why an ancient king >needs to employ a spy in case his astrologers knew precisely the course of >the >enemy? Does anyone knows some more informations? Similar the term praticAra, >often mentioned together with cAra is not clear to me. >Thanks. Both meanings 'spy' and 'astrology' come naturally from a general 'to observe' and, despite Mayrhofer, cAra is probably linked with the Greek verb tEreO 'to observe' (root *kvEr-) and not with carati 'to walk' (root *kvel-). About using both spies and astrologers, I suppose a wise king use all the ways to have knowledge of the ennemy, because even if you trust the astrology, astrologers are men and can make mistakes. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 21:32:02 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 20:32:02 -0100 Subject: Ayur Vedic or Tibetan Medical Texts Message-ID: <161227032364.23782.12011136462418367725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a friend who would like to acquire a book dealing with medical diagnosis and treatment in Sanskrit and/or Tibetan. The book would included Tibetan/Sanskrit original with english translation, perhaps by CandrAnada or rGyu-Zhi or with commentaries by the same. She already is familar with Author: Vogel, Klaus Title: Astangahrdayasamhita: the first five chapters of its tibetan version ... Place of Publication: Wiesbaden Publisher: Franz Steiner Publication Date: 1965 She is especially interested in any text of this ilk that discusses pulses and their diagnosis. Could anyone help me with this? Thanks in advance David Dargie ***************************************************************** David Dargie Centre for Language Teaching and Research University of Queensland email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Phone: +61 7 3365 6917 Home: +61 7 3397 6863 ***************************************************************** From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 21:32:02 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 20:32:02 -0100 Subject: Ayur Vedic or Tibetan Medical Texts Message-ID: <161227032366.23782.13510918172920146964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are publishing the English translation of the Rgyud-bzi, it containsTibetan text in Roman, Sanskrit restoration and English translation of the text.Four volumes have been published so far.The English translation is by Vaidya Bhagwan Dash, Each volume is US$ 40-00. You can also visit our site at http://ibcindia.com for books on Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine Thanking you Sunil Gupta On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, David Dargie wrote: > I have a friend who would like to acquire a book dealing with medical > diagnosis and treatment in Sanskrit and/or Tibetan. > > The book would included Tibetan/Sanskrit original with english translation, > perhaps by CandrAnada or rGyu-Zhi or with commentaries by the same. > > She already is familar with > > Author: Vogel, Klaus > Title: Astangahrdayasamhita: the first five chapters of its tibetan version ... > Place of Publication: Wiesbaden > Publisher: Franz Steiner > Publication Date: 1965 > > > She is especially interested in any text of this ilk that discusses pulses > and their diagnosis. > > Could anyone help me with this? > > Thanks in advance > > David Dargie > > ***************************************************************** > David Dargie > Centre for Language Teaching and Research > University of Queensland > email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au > Phone: +61 7 3365 6917 > Home: +61 7 3397 6863 > ***************************************************************** > > > From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 21:32:02 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 20:32:02 -0100 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography; onomatopoeic: Message-ID: <161227032368.23782.13012575594052031656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, and other scholars, Since posting the announcement on 8/27/97 on this site about the publication of the work concerning the discovery of cryptography or the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution in the Dravidian language family at < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > I have been getting quite a few emails concerning the subject. It has been heartning to see the interest and the positive tone of the responses. After so many years of work, I am glad that this discovery has been disclosed to world view unlike in the case of my other work: The Sumerians: Their True Identity and the Evidence for it, which was a desktop publication of my manuscript. My thanks to all who have responded. To those who have asked for individual attention concerning the matter, I must submit my apologies, for it is quite impossible for me to answer so many all at once, and individually. But, I have attempted to classify questions into groups pertaing to a certain general area of the matter, and I will try to give general answer pertaining to each area, one at a time, and post it here so that others who may have the same question may also see the information. The question I would like to respond to is: are the results of the operation of the Dravidian linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution hard to find? A general answer to this question is already clear when you notice the illustrations in the above noted published work. There are participating words which are used everyday by the Indians in general and the Dravidians in particular. There are also many words which are not used so popularly. But to answer the question whether they are hard to find or not, the answer must be: it is fairly easy if one is observant. In order to demonstrate this, I would like to take a few examples almost all of which belong to a class or category of words generally known to the scholars as the onomatopoeic expressions. They are similar to such English words as: bang, crunch, zap, etc. These, as might be gathered, are used in the daily speech of people speaking any language. So they are not obscure words in Dravidian languages also. Most of them are in the colloquial sphere of Dravidian, and unfortunately nobody has made a special attempt to gather them all and publish them in a systematic manner. No dictionary concerning itself with a Dravidian language or languages has paid much attention to them. Nothing significant has been done about the colloquial words, terms, etc., by the scholars in spite of the fact that almost all of them are of very ancient age and contain considerable information concerning the ancient Dravidians, their cultures, religions, and their relationship with other peoples. Since these are not included in the dictionaries, scholars, particularly those who have to rely on dictionaries for their research concerning the Dravidians, miss much that might be useful to them. Now, assuming that you have read the above noted work to the extent that you are aware of the various types of words which have been influenced by the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution in Dravidian, (that is, factors such as that sometimes an addition or subtraction of the partcipating consonant or consonants, vowel or vowels takes place, sometimes they vary due to such factors as the phonetic correspondences affecting them, and so on), let us start with the Tamil: kopp-enal, which is defined as an onomatopoeic expression of moving suddenly (DED. #2112). The element we should be concerned with here is kopp, because enal is attached to almost all of this type of words in Tamil; it is similar to the English 'thus' or 'like' - in that manner - as in 'the expression 'like crunch'. Now, the inverted and substituted form of this Tamil: kopp-enal is the other Tamil: pakk-enal, which is another onomatopoeic expression of being sudden (DED. #3813). As can be seen in these two expressions the order of the consonats in one is reversed in the other (there is of course the addition of a consonant and the role played by the substituting vowels), and they both essentially denote the same meaning even though they are pronounced differently and are located in two different places in the dictionary (DED). They are both onomatopoeic expressions. Now, we can take pett-enal, which is a Tamil onomatopoeic expression signifying quickness (DED. #4393). Here we need to notice that the related words of this pett-enal are the Tulu: pettugu, and pettige, denoting: immediately (DED. #4393). Now, the inverted and substituted form of pett-enal is the currently existing tapukk-enal, which is also an expression signifying haste in Tamil (DED. #3069). Notice again that both of these are also onomatopoeic expressions signifyng essentially the same meaning: quickness or haste. We may also notice that there are the other Tamil: pata-pat-enal (which is another onomatopoeic expression signifying hurry or speaking in haste - DED. #3842 -), and pata-pat-enal (another onomatopoeic expression signifying the trembling of the heart - DED. #3910; that is, there is the element of hurriedness or quickness in the beat of the heart) which are also in the picture we are witnessing here. There is also the other Tamil: potukk-enal, which is another onomatopoeic expression signifying quickness (DED. #4483). Notice how the above noted tapukku and this potukk end in kk, even though the order of the consonants in the rest of one is reversed in the rest of the other. Next, we have the Tamil: patar-patar-enal (DED.#3841), which has its inverted and substituted form in the othet Tamil: tapar-enal DED. #2947), both of which are onomatopoeic expression signifyng: cracking. Note also that there is the Kannada: teppa, which denotes: suddenly (DED.#3069), which has its inverted and substituted form in the Tulu: patta, also denting: suddenly (DED. #3842). Further, we may notice the case of another Tamil taka-tak-enal, which is an onomatopoeic expression of boiling (DED. #2997), which has its inverted and substituted form in the Kannada colloquial: kata-kata or kota-kota, which is an onomatopoeic expression of boiling. The Kannada kudi and kata-kata also have their inverted and substituted form in the Tamil: uduku (meaning: to boil - DED. 588 -) which is, of course, related to the bove noted Tamil: taka-tak-enal, and another Tamil: tiku-tik-enal, which is also an onomatopeic expression signifying: bubbling of water (DED. #3203). Notice that another Tamil: taka-tak-enal denotes: glittering (DED. #2998), and it has its inverted and substituted form in the Toda: kot- (koty-), denoting: glitter (DED. #1207). There is the Malayalam: taka taka, which denotes: beating time (DED. #2997), and it has its inverted and substituted form in the Tamil: kotti, which denotes: time measure (DED. #2063), and the other Tamil: kottu, meaning: to beat (as drum), time measure (DED.#2063). These latter words denoting drumbeat, and time measure are realted to such other Tamil words as kitukku-kitukk-enal, which is an onomatopoeic expression signifyng hollow sound (DED. #1531), kitukku, which denotes: small drum (DED. #1531), and these in their turn are related to such other words as utukkai denoting: small drum (DED.#589), so on and so forth. And we have not even exhausted the ones in the dictionary, let alone those which are in the colloquial spheres of these languages! So, yes, the phenomenon of inversion and substitution in Dravidian can be witnessed fairly easily, for the Dravidian language family is imbued with it. What is more important is the fact that it is not hard to see this phenomenon when we are witnessing words, terms, names, etc., which pertain to the ancient gods, goddesses, demons, and which are used in the Indo-Aryan languages. Thanks for your patience. Best regards. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 22:29:20 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 21:29:20 -0100 Subject: First Stone-Age Weapon Unit Discovered in Karnatak Message-ID: <161227032379.23782.18116021234449441715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After Bharat (aka India), now Karnatak (aka Karnataka) enters into the halo of dubious distinctions. Well done! ramukumar From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 22:58:29 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 21:58:29 -0100 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032381.23782.16164081077791368635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:21 AM 9/10/97 BST, Narayan Raja writes: > > >> >Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following > >> >B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: >> > >> >> p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which >> >> held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the >> >> generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me >> >> particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't >> >> know much more about it, I'm afraid. > > >This must be quite a widespread belief, then. >I happen to know that Bapa Rao is Telugu, while, >as I recall, someone from Maharashtra also referred >to such a belief. In my own family (we are Tamil), >my mother and grandmother warned me that if a cat >"lost even one single hair" because of me, I would have >to go to "narakam" (i.e., hell. but temporary). Why >cats in particular? Don't know. > >Regards, > > >Raja. > Yes, killing of cat is believed to be a great sin almost equivalent to brahmahatya and there is a belief that such person's progeny will not survive if the sin is not atoned. sarma. From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 22:58:29 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 21:58:29 -0100 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032387.23782.4590200656846281758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:41 PM 9/10/97 BST, you wrote: >At 01:21 AM 9/10/97 BST, Narayan Raja writes: >> Dear members of the list, Cat-slaughter is not only deemed a sin among the Hindus, but also among some other races as well. Probably the original cause is shrouded in the mists of the remote past. The Celts had a ceremony where cats were burned alive. But the Ancient Egyptians held cats in very great reverance.They even mummified cats. Black cats are said to be associated with witch-craft. This is not a beleif, just confined to the the West alone. Among the Malays of South East Asia, black cats are associated with black magic. The Malay sorceresses or female "bomohs", have black cats with them. There are some Malay Black Magic rites which involve black cats. To the Malays, the dog is taboo. But the cat is a much endeared animal.They would'nt dream of killing a cat at all. You may see Malay households feeding even stray cats. There is hardly a family which does not have household cats. Yours Jayabarathi Malaysia > >>> >Further regarding the "sin of killing a cat" issue, the following >> >>> >B [a certain Bapa Rao] says: >>> > >>> >> p.s. about the cats, I based my statement on my upbringing, which >>> >> held that it was a special sin to kill cats, as opposed to the >>> >> generic sin incurred by killing anything. No one around me >>> >> particularly liked cats, it was just held sinful to kill one. Don't >>> >> know much more about it, I'm afraid. >> >> >>This must be quite a widespread belief, then. >>I happen to know that Bapa Rao is Telugu, while, >>as I recall, someone from Maharashtra also referred >>to such a belief. In my own family (we are Tamil), >>my mother and grandmother warned me that if a cat >>"lost even one single hair" because of me, I would have >>to go to "narakam" (i.e., hell. but temporary). Why >>cats in particular? Don't know. >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Raja. >> > >Yes, killing of cat is believed to be a great sin almost equivalent to >brahmahatya and there is a belief that such person's progeny will not >survive if the sin is not atoned. > >sarma. > > > From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 22:58:29 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 21:58:29 -0100 Subject: AW: Rta Message-ID: <161227032382.23782.1013247362577232522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk im Auftrag von John A Grimes Gesendet am: Dienstag, 9. September 1997 19:15 An: Members of the list Betreff: Rta Dear John, I am not sure, but reading your message I thought of a voluminous work of the German scholar Heinrich L|ders and a title like VaruNa Heiner Dear List Members, Does anyone recall a book about Rta? I seem to remember Motilal had one but I can't seem to locate such. Thanks in advance. John Grimes MSU From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 22:58:29 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 21:58:29 -0100 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032385.23782.2654798534986428222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Andrew Cohen wrote: > Re: meditating cats. > > At the "Great Relief" in Mahabalipuram, there is a delightful > representation of a dubious Yogi-- a cat does tapas as mice gather > at his feet to see this marvel. > > Andrew Cohen This reminds me of "Nau sau cuuhe khaa ke billii haj ko calii"--- Having eaten nine hundred mice, the cat went on pilgrimage... From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:02:38 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:02:38 -0100 Subject: Q: mArjArahatyA Message-ID: <161227032389.23782.15023567713819468021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry if some of you are seeing this posting twice...there seems to be something wrong with my server and it seems to take its own time to send messgaes and I don't think I'd seen this posting earlier, hence would like to apologize again for "repeating" myself and rereading the same post. As the first one to reply to Bob Hueckstadts question regarding "marjArahatya" I got the impression that he was looking for evidence from one of the religious texts and I therefore wrote out my post saying that 1. This kind of a belief isn't found in any of the religious texts 2. Bhagavati Charan Verma was trying to take a dig at the Brahmin practice of trying to make a buck off everything....comment 2 was based on what my own Hindi teacher( a M.A. from Benares Hindu University) told me more than ten years ago...I remember reading "mArjAr hatyA" at that time though the finer points of the story escape me now and I would like to reread the story.. 3. Cats are normally supposed to be inauspicious in India, people for example take it is an ill omen if a cat were to cross ones path. With subsequent mail,I got the impression from some people that this belief was true; I decided to research the topic and have read a few texts, books that I thought were likely to answer the question. I've come up with the following: 1. Some say that cats were largely domesticated and used to kill rodents and rats( farmers nightmare) and were therefore regarded as of some importance..this was also the argument given by J.Kirkpatrick in this thread 2. There is one book about "Symbolic Animals" by one Dr Manjupuria of the Tribhuvan University, Kathmandu,Nepal. He says that there is a belief in SOME areas that the following story is prevalent: There was a Brahmin lady who happened to eat food that wasn't intended for her and on subsequent enquiries, accused a cat that happened to be a pet of the local Goddess( I get the impression that he means "Folk Goddess"/Village Diety here). The Goddess took revenge by killing the Brahmin womens children. On propriating the Goddess's cat, the woman managed to get back her children. So, he says "SOME Hindus regard it sinful to kill a cat". This book also has a lot of folklore in it and I therefore think I'm correct in concluding that there is no Puranic evidence to back up this story. The same book also hastens to add point 3 in one of the earlier paragraphs i.e. the cat is inauspicious in that if it crossed ones path, then the person concerned will not be succesfull in achieving his goal which fits in with the Hindi expression "Billi Rasta Kaat Diya"... In conclusion, I think that Bhagavati Charan Verma borrowed this idea from folk-belief as opposed to Puranic lore( unless the folk-belief is itself a watered down version of some story of the Puranas:-)....... Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Farewell2? Message-ID: <161227032391.23782.10852812484395510201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Sarma, I thought I was going to stay off line for as long as the situation forced me to; but since your response was brought to my notice I have managed that this can be posted. Regarding the phenomenon of inversion and substitution "is exclusively Tamilian:" This is a Dravidian linguistic phenomenon, and it belongs to all the Dravidian languages. The other languages of India, inasmuch as they have inherited the results of this phenomenon, and inasmuch as they are part of the total linguistic scene of India, also have due claim on this phenomenon, perhaps more, but no smaller portion. This phenomenon outgrew the stage of being exclusively of Dravidian very long time ago, and now it belongs to the entire linguistic scene of India. The reason I illustrated its evidence with the help of Kannada is not because it belongs exclusively to Kannada or Dravidian, but to prove its prsence at least in one Dravidian language first. Its original home is Dravidian, but the results of its operation now reside in all languages of India. When I said that it is through and through Dravidian, I meant that it can be understood best and first, in its home. Now, I want to emphasize, underline, and highlight this: I am not trying to secure primacy for the Dravidian language family, or any part of it, as opposed to Sanskrit, or any other Indian language. Nowhere I have claimed it for Kannada, exclusively or otherwise. Sanskrit and other languages are as precious to me as are the Dravidian languages. A considerable portion of the Indian mythology is woven around the results of the operation of not only linguistic but also artistic phenomena so much so that it can be safely said that they formed the lifeblood of each other. If you want to understand, appreciate, and enjoy the stated and implied significance of various names, aspects, etc., of the Indian deities and the myths and stories concerning them in their relationship with the linguistic and artistic phenomena to a fuller degree, I am afraid, you can not take with you much of your grammatical luggage to test them with, even though you can still witness the results of the operation of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution to an extent. Regarding your contention that the Kannada muka is from Sanskrit: In their preface, the compilers of DED have stated "We have avoided inclusion in the dictionary of words that were certainly borrowed by Dravidian languages from IA languages..." and under DED. #4889, all the Dravidian words, including the Tamil mukam for face, mouth, etc., are given. Besides this, there are the Dravidian words such as mUti (= face, mouth), DED.#5031; mUgu (= nose, beak), DED.#5024; mUsu (= to smell), DED.34886, listed in DED. not to speak of the other Dravidian words denoting ear and eyes, complete with eyelashes and eyebrows. Using all these latter Dravidian words denoting nose, mouth, etc., which are on or associated with face, I am not convinced that the Dravidians had to borrow or derive the word denoting: face, from Sanskrit. About p=h, in relation to the name Aasanga: I have noted my response already. Absence of literary evidence for the correspondences in the speeches does not indicate the absence of such correspondences, ancient or modern. We can not pass judgement on such matters basing on a partial picture of them. I have also said that the validity of the evidence for the Dravidian phenomenon of inversion and substitution does not rest upon this name. It is time to stop associatimg ourselves with this person who is not sure of his own gender. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar (http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ) email: dkumar6248 at aol.com From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032400.23782.11708530769083337107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >On the subject of the connection between India and south America, I > would like to add that about a year ago in Hinduism Today an article was > published on the connection between these two areas. There is commoness in Didn't you know that Argentina gets its name from Arjuna, the Pandava? Vidyasankar From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Temple architecture Message-ID: <161227032404.23782.15876993123713815379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Das Devaraj writes >Had a question about which direction Shiva faces in a temple. >I was thinking that it could be any direction except North >(because of the name Daksinamurthi, would not want to face >the other way). > >Anyway, somebody recently mentioned that in Chithamburam temple, >Shiva faces North (don't know this to be a fact). Just now idly >thumped through a general book on temple architectures. The >plans showed dieties facing all directions except North. Another >reason not to face North (my guess), is that it will force >devotees to face South while praying. > >Does anybody know whether Shiva can face North? Or any reference >which discusses this specific issue? > If your referring to the Shiva _lingam_, its of course difficult to tell where the "face" is, except in stylised representations. In Bengal (esp. the Dakshineswar Kali Temple, made famous by Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa), all of the (12) Shiva temples, as well as the lingam in the shrine are positioned so that the _yoni_ "points" towards the north. And the current head pujari at the temple is quite insistent that this is the correct way for all Shiva lingams to be situated. I couldn't tell you whether this custom holds true in other places... Hope this helps, Trishul From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Chilies (was Re: Tobacco) Message-ID: <161227032393.23782.3872683985158419049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pratap Kumar wrote: > > Well India had pepper (black) before they got chillies from possibly > Mexico. > > Pratap > > On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 Hrid at aol.com wrote: > > > If chillies come from elsewhere, does that mean that all that hot hot Indian > > food is not "original"? > > > > According to my botanical books it is not at all sure that chillies came from South America to the old world but that they were indigenous in South Asia as well. Ditte Bandini-Koenig -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:KArtikeya Message-ID: <161227032395.23782.15290951772746976422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, It is clear to me that an important point is being missed while some scholars concern themeselves with the Dravidian phenomenon of inversion and substitution. In order to keep the document on the Internet within a reasonable length, I left unsaid some things which I have noted in my earlier work in detail, and this has created some confusion. Now in order to save space here, I will just quote from others postings what is relevant. For a fuller version of their postings, the reader must refer to those postings, the dates and times of which I have stated. On Sept. 8, 1997 at 01:o4:16BST narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) wrote >>At 08:08 PM 9/7/97 BST, S.Krishna wrote: >> >>From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA < >>> >>>At 06:04 AM 9/6/97 BST, D.kumar wrote: >>> >>>>The other Kannada word kanda, which is an inverted and substituted >form ofdinku, denotes: young child (DED. #1411), .....I shall refer to this work as: A.Parpola). > >>Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma says: >>>On the one hand it is claimed that `skanda' is the inverted/substituted >>form of`dinkisu' (= leap). On the other hand it is claimed that`kanda' ...One word should have only one origin. >>> >>I can't hunt up the exact reference here, but I do remember reading >>somewhere that "skanda" is actually from tamil "kaNDa" ...i.e. the argument as Tamil literature). >>Regards, >>Krishna >> >If `skanda' is a sanskritised form of `kanda' a dravidian word, how can it >be the inverted/substituted form of `dinkisu'. >sarma. The point that is being missed here is that first of all a participating word many times has more than one participating counterpart. Now these counterparts need not necessarily denote the same meaning or meanings which is denoted by their otiginal word. These meanings can be logically related to each other as well as to the meaning or meanings of their original counterpart. This is absolutely important to keep in mind when we are considering such things as the names of the deities. sages, etc., in the Indian pantheon. This is the reason why "a leap" or "one who leaped or caused by the leaping" can also be a kanda = child. Now these two meanings are not related when you take them out of the context of Skanda, but they are logically and intimately related when you consider them in the context of this god. As I have noted, the cardinal religious doctrine of the Sumerians (that the name of the deity somehow partakes of the reality of what it denotes) also is there in the Indian pantheon, and this can be witnessed to a fuller extent when the inverted and substituted forms denote the meaning or meanings logically connected with the deity, or with his aspect or aspects, legends, etc., If the inverted forms have the same meaning or meanings (which is, of course, also possible) as that or those of the original counterpart, it is not possible to witness this doctrine fully in the Indian pantheon, as also in the Sumerian pantheon. The idea which was the foundation in crafting and coining the name of the deities was to pack as much logically related meaning or meanings into it. This could be done only when the inverted form of the name denoted a different but logically related meaning. For instance, another name of this god is KArtikeya, and the element Kartik here represents Krittika, which is apt for, KArtikeya is inseparably connected with the Pleaides. But there is no manifestation of the above noted doctrine, because KArtikeya was born for the express purpose of punishing TAraka. You can witness this manifestation when you invert this name as eku and TAraka. In Telugu eku means: to beat (DED.#765). So the reverse form of the name KArtikeya denotes: 'The Beater of TAraka', which is, of course, what he did. Now, if one starts an argument saying: how can the name of the Pleaides, Krittika, be TAraka, the enemny of KArtikeya, then it would amount to an admission that one is not prepared to witness this doctrine, or for that matter, what was one of the main purposes for which this phenomenon was employed by the ancinet scholars and sages. Indology will not be any more interesting than before in this way. I can not write much, for there is no space, but I would ask the concerned scholars to keep these and other such important points in mind before making any comments which, in the first place, do not have to be made. Also it is time to stop looking at Dravidian through Sanskrit lens. Sanskrit herself would suggest this in the interest of enlightenment. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar ( http://www.mninter.net/!kumar ) email: dkumar6248 at aol.com From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032396.23782.4680209932793291519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey wrote: > >I recall watching an episode on Discovery titled "The Curse of the Cocaine >Mummies" which discussed the controversy surrounding the data that some >Egyptian mummies were found to have traces of nicotine and cocaine in >their hair. Arguments that the mummies were recent or fake were made by >those who opposed the theory that the Egyptians knew of tobacco before >Columbus. Well, now that you bring up the subject, I'll have to reveal a well-kept secret: the Egyptian, Greek and all other great civilizations are derived from the Mayas of Central America. If you have doubts, read Augustus Le Plongeon's 1896 book 'Queen Moo and the Egyptian Sphinx.' He gives irrefutable proof that the Greek alphabet is derived from the Mayan language. The Greek alphabet is a cryptic description, in Mayan, of the sinking of the ancient continent of Mu (now you know where the name of that letter comes from!). The ancient Mayas traveled to the Middle East and beyond, and their teachings informed all great civilizations. Another author, a certain Tony Earll (who sold more than his cosmically allotted share of paperbacks), described the discovery of some ancient tablets in the outskirts of Mexico City that talked of the ancient sunken continent. As it turns out, Tony Earll is an anagram of 'not really.' Here are some of Le Plongeon's books. Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. Maya/Atlantis : Queen Moo and the Egyptian Sphinx / by Augustus Le Plongeon ; new introd. by Paul M. Allen. Blauvelt, N.Y. : R. Steiner Publications, 1973. Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. Sacred mysteries among the Mayas and the Quiches, 11,500 years ago : their relation to the sacred mysteries of Egypt, Greece, Chaldea and India : Freemasonry in times anterior to the Temple of Solomon / illustrated... 3rd ed. New York : Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Co., 1909, c1886. Le Plongeon, Augustus, 1826-1908. Vestiges of the Mayas, or, Facts tending to prove that communications and intimate relations must have existed, in very remote times, between the inhabitants of Mayab and those of Asia and Africa. By Augustus Le Plongeon. New York, J. Polhemus, printer, 1881. For those interested in possible pre-columbian contacts between the Americas and the rest of the world, a good starting point would be: Needham, Joseph, 1900- Trans-Pacific echoes and resonances : listening once again / Joseph Needham and Lu Gwei-Djen. Singapore ; Philadelphia : World Scientific, c1985. Best wishes, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Tobacco (rolled in cryptography) Message-ID: <161227032398.23782.5984440451739917925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On the subject of the connection between India and south America, I would like to add that about a year ago in Hinduism Today an article was published on the connection between these two areas. There is commoness in south Indian temples and the temples of south America. There are several words in south american languages and south Indian languages with similar meaning. In a publication in Scientific America ( somewhere in 1976-78) I have seen a picture of flying man which to any Indian will represent Hanuman. In the history of Mexico, it is mentioned that Mexico was established by people who came from east. May be there is more to the stories of Pandavas going to PATAL and getting married to local girls, and having kids, e.g.,. GHATOTKUCH, the son of BHIMA.It is said that Hastinapur was built by PATAL people.Keep looking, probably ther is more to discover. Goog luck, Jay Thakar From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:08:26 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:08:26 -0100 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:The responsibility Message-ID: <161227032402.23782.4699868688345102427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, Two questions which have been aked of me need to be answered: (1): How can anyone who calls himself a scholar, can doubt in the same posting on this List, the very existence of something (he called Dravidian Cryptography may be "conjectures and coincidences"), and then in the same breath utter "(if it is there) is exclusively Tamilian"? (another Dravidian scholar posted saying that it is there in onomatopoeic words, but not common in Tamil).(2): If I published these findings before, why have they not been known to the scholars since their publication? The first question here, I am afraid, is misdirected. The answer must come from the one who made those remarks. Regarding the second question: I have noted previously that my earlier work :The Sumerians: Their Identity and the Evidence for it" in two volumes, even though registered with the Copyright office, and their copies housed in the Library of Congress, was essentially a desktop publication, published with the intention that I was going to use the material in them to write other works. I could not get to this task right away, for two reasons: when I sent copies of these volumes to certain so-called authorities in the subjects (Sumerian and Dravidian) it was like dropping a stone in a deep hole. There was not even the sound of it hitting anything at the bottom. But then, I just sent them and have the postal proof of having done so by Registered Mail, but did not contact them and persue the matter. I thought they were supposed to at least acknowledge, even if, as a matter of common courtesy. Because of this discouragement as well as due to the fact that I had to put food on the table and such other things, I did not persue writing deriving material from this work. But it was always on my mind, and I was constantly gathering more and more evidence. When I did get to work, the result was "The Best Kept Secret of Dravidian," the offspring of which is the work on the Internet. When I was about to publish the former work, it occured to me that the same fate might befall this work also, (as what had happened to 'The Sumerians'). Since the discovery was too significant to be not known to a number of scholars, I decided to put it on the Internet. I had to make lot of changes mainly beacause it was not going to be on paper, and I had to hold much new material back to keep the length short. One of the other reasons to publish this on the Internet was that, I had come to have a rather negative opinion about the existence of true scholarship in the world, for there was no response, negative or positive, when I mailed the copies of 'The Sumerians' to the concerned scholars. I gained the impression that these scholars, if they have read all the contents of 'The Sumerians,' for some reason, either do not like what they see there, or are under the impression that it will go away if they ignore it or pretend like they have not seen it. I might be wrong on both counts, but that is the impression I got. This impression was substantiated when after I had given the manuscript of 'The Best Kept Secret' to one of the linguists (who teaches Tamil) in an University, it was kept for about two months, and when I went back to ask for an opinion, I found out that, perhaps, it was not read at all. One of the reasons why I did not go directly to and insist upon the Dravidian scholars about my findings, can be seen by a ceratin scholar's disposition to first doubt the existence and operation of the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution when the evidence is placed in front of the world, then, second: to claim it exclusively for a certain Dravidian language, before going and examining more than the two dozen Dravidian languages to base his conclusion upon. I am also of the impression, and it is only my impression, that there is a tendency among the Indian scholars in general and the Dravidian scholars in particular, (particularly those who want to go and work in a Wester University) that the Western scholar will not like it or will not consider if something great is discovered or said about the Indian and/or the Dravidian phenomenon. I would be glad if I am wrong on this, but it is my impression. I personally is of the opinion, that a scholar is a scholar no matter whether he belongs to the Western or Eastern World. This is why we have the contributions of such scholars as Hinks, Oppert, Sir William Jones, Revs. Kittel, Caldwell, Rice, Sir Ralph Turner, Burrow, Emeneaun and others like them; some of them not linguists, archaeologists, or historians in the traditional sense. They took the responsibility immediately without being invited or assigned. I still beleive that there are scholars in the world who take on the responsibility of scholarship whether they are invited to take it or assigned. Now that the findings concerning the Dravidian phenomenon of inversion and substitution are in front of the world, no one can say that they remained obscure and out of view. I have fulfilled my responsibility under the most strenous circumstances. I can not be blamed for not having published them widely, this time. Besides, the results of the operation of this phenomenon will live as long as the last words of the last Dravidian; the knowledge about their significance will not go away, even if ignored, this time. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar ( http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ); email: dkumar6248 at aol.com I blamed myself partly, that is why I took Dominik's jest seriously From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:11:57 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:11:57 -0100 Subject: Study India Program Message-ID: <161227032408.23782.13055168780877106027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List Some time back Kamal Adhikary had asked for information on Study India Programs. Our University is starting one in 1998. Here is some information about it which may of interest to some of you. STUDY INDIA PROGRAMS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HYDERABAD Beginning in 1998 0. About the University The University of Hyderabad (UofH) in India, located in the historic capital city of Andhra Pradesh, is one of the dozen premier universities of post-graduate teaching and research in the country, and is easily regarded as one of the best academic institutions in South Asia. The UofH was the first Central University to be established in 1974 in the culturally and lin- guistically rich southern part of India. Located on a serene and green campus miles away from the hustle and bustle of the city life, and yet in an institution ideally suited for pursuing serious learning programs, this relatively young University outstretches its arm to all those who are looking for an exciting study abroad program of a short duration. A detailed brochure can be had from the O.S.D., Centre for Distance Education, University of Hyderabad, Hyderabad 500046. The advantages of locating a special program of this kind in Hyderabad are many - its rich linguistic and cultural tradition, salubrious climate all the year round, concentration of educa- tional institutions (five major Universities and three institu- tions deemed to be universities), and its connectivity both by air and rail/road with many principal cities of the country. UofH has 218-odd faculty of the University, including 70 Professors, 75 Readers and 73 Lecturers - with a high publication profile (496 books and 3,757 research papers in National and International journals in the last 20 years), and with many na- tional and international awards and honours in different fields. So far, about 6,000 candidates have been awarded degrees of the University including 384 Ph.D. degrees, 1,561 M.Phil. (=Pre-Ph.D. research degree after Master's) degrees and 346 M.Tech. degrees. Besides, it has produced about 4,415 post-graduate students. The present teacher-student ratio is quite favourable: 1:8. 1. The Focus: The STUDY INDIA PROGRAM of the University of Hyderabad focuses on India. It has a special emphasis on the HERITAGE, CONTINUITY AND CHANGE in India. The program is created as an extension of STUDY ABROAD program available in many Univer- sities in the world. It is highly inter-disciplinary in nature, offering a wide variety of 20 courses in the following areas: 3-401: Representing India: Texts, Histories, Theories 3-402: Indian Writing in English 3-403: Ethnographic Approaches to Indian Society 3-504: Indian Cultural Heritage 3-605: India: Society, Culture & Civilization 3-606: Indian Archaeology (From Prehistory to Early history) 3-407: Spiritual Traditions of India 3-508: State & Civil Societies in Contemporary India 3-409: Urban India 3-510: Rural India: Elements of Change 3-411: Rural Economy in India 3-412: India: Geographical Entity 3-513: Indian Classical Dance 3-514: Cinema India 3-415: Indian Folk Life Studies 3-516: Comparative Indian Literature 3-417: Comparative Indian Languages 3-518: Intensive Hindi Program 3-519: Intensive Telugu Program 3-620: Independent Study Program [*] * Under Independent Study Program, the special focus will be on GENDER STUDIES; HUMAN RIGHTS; DIASPORA STUDIES; TRANSLATION STUDIES; NATURAL LANGUAGE PROCESSING; FOLKLORE STUDIES; AREA STUDIES; INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS STUDIES. 2. Why join SIP at UofH? There are many reasons as to why one may do SIP at this University other than the variety or attractive (and variable) fee structure. These are the distinct advantages: * Internationally acclaimed/honored faculty * A large number of faculty have research experience abroad * Many teachers have been visiting professors abroad * SIP has a modular structure - extremely flexible * SIP will surely be a value-addition program for its takers * SIP at the UofH is quite economical with a flexible tuition fee related to the credits earned and to the parent University's pattern * A polution-free naturally endowed campus with about 1000 hect. * One of the few Universities in India where the Semester system has been followed so rigorously in the last two decades * A fully computerized library (the first of its kind in India) * A well-equipped computer centre networked to all schools * E-mail/internet facilities (not readily available elsewhere) * A heterogeneous campus with already some international students * Well-connected campus away from the hustle of city life 3. Accreditation: The courses being offered as listed here range from levels 2000 to 6000 equivalents, and accordingly 2 to 6 credits could be earned by the students attending them from their parent Universities. It is, however, possible that different Universities abroad will recognize different sets of these cours- es and may ask its students to opt for some among them. 4. Specialized Program: The list of courses as described in this chapter is only indicative of what the University can offer. But if necessary, the University can create specialized programs and packages of courses for particular countries or participating Universities. Teaching will include lectures, tutorials (by doctoral and post-doc students/Teaching Assistants), discussions, practicals or hands-on experience), seminars, field-work, take-home and other assignments, project reports, and a week-long trip to different parts of India (at least, South India). For certain courses, audio-video component and performances will also be employed. Evaluation here will include teacher evaluation, peer evaluation as well as for feed-back, course-evaluation to be done by students. Advanced reading lists to be made available so that partici- pating students can come with some preparation. In most cases, an orientation is expected to be organized by the participating Universities from abroad. But a week-long orientation can be organized by this University, too under a special arrangement. 5. Timing: At the moment, the courses are being organized on a quarter pattern (10 weeks of course-work followed by two weeks of field tour/trips), beginning three times a year - around the second week of January, June and September every year. However, these could also be offered on a semester pattern of 16 weeks of teaching and two weeks of trips and tours. 6. Quantum of Options at a given time: The maximum credits possi- ble to earn in a given quarter will vary between 12 and 16. Depending on registration and faculty availability (which fact could be checked easily through e-mail with the Program Director), at least six courses are to be offered every quarter. 7. Quantum of Students under SIP: While there is theoretically no upper limit of students admitted under SIP, it is not expected to be a crowded program. The idea is to take special care of each student. But it is expected that the participating Universities will send at least 5 to 10 students for a particular quarter. For a course to be viable, there must at least be 3 to 4 registrants. 8. Teaching medium, methods and evaluation: The medium of in- struction will be English in which proficiency is essential. Teaching will include lectures, tutorials, discussions, practi- cals, seminars, field-work, take-home and other assignments, project reports, and a week-long trip to places of interest. 9. Orientation/Preparatory Help: Advanced reading lists to be made available so that students can come with some preparation. 10. Who can apply?: The program is aimed at overseas students from all countries provided they meet the general pre-requisite of proficiency in English and special pre-requisites, if any. The following could be possible applicants: * Universities and their International Studies divisions * Study Abroad Program Directors of Universities & Colleges * Heads of Academic Programs or Departments of Universities * Universities with South Asia/Area Studies program * Individual students could also apply, but getting accredita- tion will be their own responsibility * Higher Education Institutes or Ministries of Education * NRI groups or associations could also send in requests * Trade or Business delegations or groups (for crash courses) * Foreign scholars/technocrats already in India could also apply * Individuals who may only wish to audit or attend courses 11. A Modular Structure: The SIP has been envisaged as a Modular Program with three modules - the first one being introductory and panoramic, where either of these courses could be given: Level 2000 ; No.1-200 INDIA TODAY (Credits: 2) Level 3000 ; No.1-300 INDIAN CULTURAL HERITAGE (Cr: 2) All the courses described above could be arranged under both 12- week module (10 weeks of teaching plus 2 weeks of India-travel) [=MODULE 3] or five- to six-week MODULE 2 upon request. 12. Fee Structure: Tuition fee payable by a student will have four components: (1) Tuition fee, if any, payable to the parent University: [?] (2) TUITION payable to UNIVERSITY OF HYDERABAD: US $ 2,000 [or, roughly US $150 to US $160 per credit; however, for the students paying higher fee to their parent University, the UofH tuition will be higher/negotiable] * For non-degree participants/For auditing : US $ 1,000 * For the NRI-groups sponsoring a candidate : US $ 2,000 (III) International and within India Travel & Visa cost: Variable (IV) Boarding & Lodging/Misc./Local transport :[Approx] US $ 800 To summarize, including air-fare, the candidates are expect- ed to spend about US $ 4,300 for a SIP quarter. CONTACT (FOR further INFORMATION): ************************************************************************* Professor UDAYA NARAYANA SINGH Professor of Linguistics and Head, CALTS Director, Study India Program (SIP) University of Hyderabad, Hyderabad 500046 INDIA E-mail: Telephone: Residence (091-040-)3010640 Office: 3010500; Extn. 3650 ************************************************************************* Best Wishes ALOKA PARASHER-SEN Department of History University of Hyderabad, Hyderabad-500 046, Andhra Pradesh Email : apsss at uohyd.ernet.in From naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Fri Sep 12 23:11:57 1997 From: naniji at MAIL.TELEPAC.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 22:11:57 -0100 Subject: Temple architecture Message-ID: <161227032406.23782.13332052212955176279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- From: Trishul (Travis Smith)[SMTP:t_shul at uclink4.berkeley.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 8:14 AM To: Members of the list Subject: Re: Temple architecture Shiva is the only God in the Hindu Pantheon, who can face all directions in Temple Architecture. With the exception of Shiva, all Gods do not face the South - as it is the direction of the God of Death - Yama. Shiva, on the other hand faces this direction as Dakshinamurti - The Great Teacher - who dispels ignorance and spreads knowledge all over the world. Poornima Das Devaraj writes >Had a question about which direction Shiva faces in a temple. >I was thinking that it could be any direction except North >(because of the name Daksinamurthi, would not want to face >the other way). > >Anyway, somebody recently mentioned that in Chithamburam temple, >Shiva faces North (don't know this to be a fact). Just now idly >thumped through a general book on temple architectures. The >plans showed dieties facing all directions except North. Another >reason not to face North (my guess), is that it will force >devotees to face South while praying. > >Does anybody know whether Shiva can face North? Or any reference >which discusses this specific issue? > If your referring to the Shiva _lingam_, its of course difficult to tell where the "face" is, except in stylised representations. In Bengal (esp. the Dakshineswar Kali Temple, made famous by Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa), all of the (12) Shiva temples, as well as the lingam in the shrine are positioned so that the _yoni_ "points" towards the north. And the current head pujari at the temple is quite insistent that this is the correct way for all Shiva lingams to be situated. I couldn't tell you whether this custom holds true in other places... Hope this helps, Trishul From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Sep 13 11:15:57 1997 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 07:15:57 -0400 Subject: Tobacco In-Reply-To: <199709091219.IAA134836@pilot03.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: <161227032416.23782.9745275264719006871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is another verse in Sanskrit relating to TAMAAKHU: tam aakhupatram (one who has a mouse as his vehicle) raajendra bhaja maa+jnaana+daayakam | tamaakhu+patram raajendra bhaja maa ajnaana+daayakam || This was given to us by our teacher in our highschool. The first line advises a king to devote himself to Ganesha (aakhu-patra) who bestows wealth (maa=lakshmii) and knowledge. The second line advises him not to take (maa bhaja) up Tamaakhu (tobacco) since it bestows ignorance. All the best, Madhav Deshpande From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Sep 13 09:42:01 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 10:42:01 +0100 Subject: "Mariana Caixeiro" postings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032413.23782.2106873852744277555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry about this, everyone. One of our members seems to have got a knot in their email system which causes all INDOLOGY messages to be reposted under her name. We're trying to fix the problem as quickly as possible. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Sat Sep 13 12:15:47 1997 From: thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Mr A.J. Thew) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 13:15:47 +0100 Subject: test, please ignore. Message-ID: <161227032419.23782.2312571288832124514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bounce test, please do not reply. Thanks Alan Thew From thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Sat Sep 13 12:43:32 1997 From: thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Mr A.J. Thew) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 13:43:32 +0100 Subject: Loop with naniji@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT Message-ID: <161227032422.23782.12846955364294014955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This user has been removed. It looks like some vacation/forward loop. Alan Thew list.admin at liverpool.ac.uk From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Sun Sep 14 14:10:02 1997 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 10:10:02 -0400 Subject: Too many synonyms? Message-ID: <161227032427.23782.2184731700143950271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > Is this confined to nouns? What is the current thinking concerning one > dhAtu (root) representing many actions (e.g., `divu krIda vijigIsha > vyavahara dyuti stuti mOda mada swapna kanti gatishu') and one action > being represented by many dhAtus in sanskrit. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that Indian lexicography assumes that if two words have approximately similar meanings in one context, then they are exact synonyms. This is provably false in many living languages. For example, in English, `I looked at the painting' and `I saw the painting' are not too far off in meaning, `I saw the movie' and `I watched the movie' are viturally identical, but `I looked at X' and `I watched X' are seldom equivalent. [An amusing game based on such things, for nouns, is one I learned from New Scientist: Follow a chain of `synonyms' in a standard thesaurus till the last one is an antonym of the first.] How far is the seeming polysemy and existence of several synonyms due to this assumption, and how far is it part and parcel of Sanskrit? [i.e, are there manuals in Sanskrit meant to illustrate the distinctions between words of broadly similar meaning?] From DKumar6248 at AOL.COM Sun Sep 14 15:39:14 1997 From: DKumar6248 at AOL.COM (Keerthi Kumar) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 11:39:14 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptology Message-ID: <161227032433.23782.15798750545615455764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun.7 Sep. 1997 at 17:04:55 +0500 Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma (narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in) wrote: > The word murugan with 'n' ending is of tamilian origin. We can only say that >inversion/substitution (if it is there) is exclusively tamilian. On Wed 10 Sep. 1997 08::23::56 Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma (narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in) wrote: >Since the word 'kumaran' with 'n' ending is a tamilian word and that 'n' ending is >necessary to get 'nAgaram', I meant to say, as far as this word is concerned the >inversion/substitution (if it exists, yes if it exists) is exclusively of tamilian origin. nAgaram is an inverted and substituted form of Murugan, who is also known by the name Subrahmanya. I never tried to derive nAgaram from kumara or kumaran (in fact I never wrote Kumara's name as Kumaran). The inverted and substituted forms of Kumara are aru muka meaning: six face(s) which Kumara is reputed to have, and ara maga meaning: king's son (which is the same meaning for the word kumara which has been used in Sanskrit thus). It is clear by the above two statements, that Sarma is confused, to say the least, about this matter. I have noted repeatedly that the results of the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution are to be witnessed in all the Dravidian languages, and there is no point in ascribing it exclusively to any one Dravidian tongue, even on the basis of one, word, term or name. In view of the fact that Sarma still says 'if it exists, yes if it exists'' in tamil, I have added another Appendix (f) to the work on the Internet ( http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ), pointing out some illustrations of the operation of this phenomenon involving many Tamil words. These participating Tamil words must be considered as the tip of the iceberg, for they constitute only a tiny fraction of the total number of Tamil words which participate in this phenomenon. My statement that I can show as many participating Tamil words as I have shown in Kannada, and more, still stands. They are there if one only tries to observe them. This phenomenon is the cornerstone of all Dravidian languages. Period. Best regards. V. Keerthi Kumar (http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ) From DKumar6248 at AOL.COM Sun Sep 14 15:49:08 1997 From: DKumar6248 at AOL.COM (Keerthi Kumar) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 11:49:08 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227032435.23782.11034039620693609804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, I would like to bring to your notice that soon Appendix E ( Excerpts from important postings), and Appendix F (A Glimpse of Cryptography mainly involving Tamil words) will be added to the work that is listed at > http://mninter.net/~kumar/ > I hope these will be considered as usefull additions. Best regards. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar ( http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ ) From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 14 21:39:11 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 14:39:11 -0700 Subject: Too many synonyms? Message-ID: <161227032442.23782.3810851272237340538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma writes: >For one action we find many verbs like > >bhU, asa = to be >gam, s.r, char etc. = to move I would request for a small clarification in this context... If I am not wrong, with respect to the Bhu-as question,doesn't the "as" root "collapse" into the "bhU" root in the future tense? i.e. sa: Aseet( he was), sa: asti( he is), sa: bhavishyati( he will be), i.e. what I'm trying to say is in the future tense, there is no difference between the declining of the "as" and "bhU" roots. But in the present and past tenses , doesn't the "bhU" dhatu translate better as "to become" than "to be"?i.e. there is a slight difference between saying "X Y-nagarasya nrpati:asti" and "X Y-nagarasya nrpati: bhavati". I believe we are talking about SLIGHTLY different meanings here.... ------- > >In nouns there are many names for the same object (paryAya padAs) and >many meanings to a single noun (nAnArthas). I think that we also need to keep in mind that some of these paryAya padas have the same meaning in slightly different( and at times related) contexts but translate loosely into English the same way, but there are others which are "perfect" synonyms i.e. the later can be represented by say rAma, rAghava, sItapati etc all of which are synonyms for rAma whereas an example of the former case is the word "prEma"...I've seen books list prEma, mamatA, praNaya etc as synonyms but I believe these refer to love/affection in different contexts, i.e. mamata refers to maternal affection, praNaya refers to conjugal love...i.e. they are loosely translatable as love but vary in the "degree" and "addressee" so to speak.... I believe that wrt the para appearing below,may I venture and add another "trivial" argument: it can be said that proper nouns which are synonyms can also develop from different features of a given person/object i.e. rAma,sItapati,dAzarathi are synonyms which developed from different aspects/qualities of rAma. >One of the theories about their existence is that aryans acquired these as they wandered through different lands with defferent dilects and laguages. I would like to know the present thinking. > >sarma. > Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Sep 14 15:29:11 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 16:29:11 +0100 Subject: Too many synonyms? In-Reply-To: <199709141410.KAA17237@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227032430.23782.18182155138439282030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:10 AM 9/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >> Is this confined to nouns? What is the current thinking concerning one >> dhAtu (root) representing many actions (e.g., `divu krIda vijigIsha >> vyavahara dyuti stuti mOda mada swapna kanti gatishu') and one action >> being represented by many dhAtus in sanskrit. > >Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that Indian lexicography >assumes that if two words have approximately similar meanings in one context, >then they are exact synonyms. This is provably false in many living languages. >For example, in English, `I looked at the painting' and `I saw the >painting' are not too far off in meaning, `I saw the movie' and `I watched >the movie' are viturally identical, but `I looked at X' and `I watched X' >are seldom equivalent. [An amusing game based on such things, for nouns, >is one I learned from New Scientist: Follow a chain of `synonyms' in >a standard thesaurus till the last one is an antonym of the first.] > >How far is the seeming polysemy and existence of several synonyms due >to this assumption, and how far is it part and parcel of Sanskrit? >[i.e, are there manuals in Sanskrit meant to illustrate the distinctions >between words of broadly similar meaning?] > > First of all let me correct the transliteration of the example I have given. It is `divu krIDA vijigIshA vyavahAra dyuti stuti mOda mada swapna kAnti gatishu'. This is the first dhatu in DivAdi GaNa. The single root `divu' is supposed to represent 10 dufferent actions that are listed above. krIDa = play, vijigIshA = desire to conquer, vyavahara = conduct, dyuti = From 71203.2563 at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Sep 14 20:42:50 1997 From: 71203.2563 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Swami Gitananda) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 16:42:50 -0400 Subject: Alfred Ludwig's article Message-ID: <161227032440.23782.13563065740693964509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody please help me locate the following article by Alfred Ludwig? I have searched in the catalogs available to me here at U.C. Berkeley, without success. The title is: "Uber die mythische grundlage des Mahabharata." I believe it was published under Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften in 1895. Thank you very much in advance, Swami Gitananda From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Sep 14 16:03:27 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 17:03:27 +0100 Subject: Too many synonyms? In-Reply-To: <199709141410.KAA17237@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <161227032437.23782.12922921861463902358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:10 AM 9/14/97 -0400, vidyanatha rao wrote: >DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >> Is this confined to nouns? What is the current thinking concerning one >> dhAtu (root) representing many actions (e.g., `divu krIda vijigIsha >> vyavahara dyuti stuti mOda mada swapna kanti gatishu') and one action >> being represented by many dhAtus in sanskrit. > >Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that Indian lexicography >assumes that if two words have approximately similar meanings in one context, >then they are exact synonyms. This is provably false in many living languages. >For example, in English, `I looked at the painting' and `I saw the >painting' are not too far off in meaning, `I saw the movie' and `I watched >the movie' are viturally identical, but `I looked at X' and `I watched X' >are seldom equivalent. [An amusing game based on such things, for nouns, >is one I learned from New Scientist: Follow a chain of `synonyms' in >a standard thesaurus till the last one is an antonym of the first.] > >How far is the seeming polysemy and existence of several synonyms due >to this assumption, and how far is it part and parcel of Sanskrit? >[i.e, are there manuals in Sanskrit meant to illustrate the distinctions >between words of broadly similar meaning?] > > Sorry by mistake I have sent an incomplete posting. I beg your indulgence. First of all let me correct the transliteration of the example I have given. It is `divu krIDA vijigIshA vyavahAra dyuti stuti mOda mada swapna kAnti gatishu'. This is the first dhatu in DivAdi GaNa. The single root `divu' is supposed to represent 10 dufferent actions that are listed above. krIDa = to play, vijigIshA = to aspire to conquer, vyavahara = to conduct, dyuti = to shine, stuti = to praise, mOda = to rejoice, mada = to be drunk, swapna = to dream, kAnti = to glow, gati = to move. For one action we find many verbs like bhU, asa = to be gam, s.r, char etc. = to move In nouns there are many names for the same object (paryAya padAs) and many meanings to a single noun (nAnArthas). One of the theories about their existence is that aryans acquired these as they wandered through different lands with defferent dilects and laguages. I would like to know the present thinking. sarma. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Sep 15 09:36:35 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 10:36:35 +0100 Subject: [JOB] Tuebingen Sanskrit Chair Message-ID: <161227032448.23782.15494870604689583104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:12:03 +0200 >?From Professor H. von Stietencron Eberhard-Karls-University Tuebingen The Faculty for Cultural Studies invites applications for the position of: Professor (C-4) of Indology and Comparative History of Religions (chair H. von Stietencron). The position is to be filled by 1 October 1998, though the date still requires confirmation. The successful candidate is expected to represent Classical Indology on a sound philological basis and to contribute to the teaching in Religious Studies. Interest in Indian Philosophy and interdisciplinary research will be appreciated. The Faculty expects Habilitation or corresponding qualifications. Applications should include a CV, list of publications, teaching experience and subjects taught as well as current and future research projects. They are to be sent to: Dekanat der Fakultaet fuer Kulturwissenschaften Hoelderlinstrasse 19 72074 Tuebingen Germany The University of Tuebingen is an equal opportunities employer. Closing date: 15 November 1997 From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Sep 15 08:53:01 1997 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 10:53:01 +0200 Subject: Alfred Ludwig's article Message-ID: <161227032445.23782.15736421254607592924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cf. Valentina Stache-Rosen, "German Indologists. Biographies of Scholars in Indian Studies Writing in German. With a Summary on Indology in German Speaking Countries", 2nd revised ed. by Agnes Stache-Weiske, New Delhi: Max Mueller Bhavan 1990, p. 76: Alfred Ludwig: "Ueber das Verhaeltnis des mythologischen Elements zur historischen Grundlage des Mahabharata" ("On the relation of the mythological element to the historical basis of the Mahabharata"), in the Proceedings of the Bohemian Academy of Sciences, Prag 1884. Moriz Winternitz compiled a bibliography of Ludwig's work in the XX Annual Report of the German Association for Folklore and Linguistics in Prag. Best wishes, Roland Steiner. On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:42:50 -0400, Swami Gitananda wrote: >Could anybody please help me locate the following article by Alfred Ludwig? >I have searched in the catalogs available to me here at U.C. Berkeley, >without success. The title is: "Uber die mythische grundlage des >Mahabharata." I believe it was published under Gesellschaft der >Wissenschaften in 1895. > >Thank you very much in advance, > >Swami Gitananda From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Sep 15 10:04:35 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 11:04:35 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] new listserv options Message-ID: <161227032450.23782.7334488210009943429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The new software running our INDOLOGY group has a couple of options which were not available before. In addition to being able to choose whether to have INDOLOGY come in as separate emails, or as a digest, you can also choose just to have the subject headers gathered together. Also, you have new control over the structure of the email headers of the incoming messages; for example you could have them all say INDOLOGY instead of the name of the original sender. A particularly subversive new feature (could be very tempting sometimes) is that you can instruct listserv not to send you messages with a particular subject line. In effect, you can censor your own subscription! To find out more, send the message help to listserv at liverpool.ac.uk You will receive basic help, plus instructions on how to get more detailed help. (For example, the message "info refcard" will make listserv send you a useful brief reference card of commands.) All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Sep 15 17:32:28 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 11:32:28 -0600 Subject: Tamil Literature Message-ID: <161227032455.23782.515261549416275369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks a bunch for Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard for giving all the ancient references to the paN - viLari. Indeed, the musical context is difficult to decipher. I wrote: * In the Varukkak Kovai, there is a sentence: * "maNam koNTu tenRal kamukil ulAviya". * - "Like the Southern breeze taking on the * pleasant smells of different flowers in a park" ... * This is a really hint by the heroine to her husband * that his relationship to other women & Devadasis * is not appreciated. * Sri. Kambaraman told me that in Cilappatikaaram, * Kovalan is compared to "Thenral". * UVS writes that "thenRal Kovalanukku uvamai". * I don't have UVS' edition here. * I need the two lines of Cilampu wh >> As for CilappatikAram and 'tenRal', it is: kuralvAyp pANaroTu, nakarap parattaroTu, titritaru marapiR kOvalan2 pOla iLivAy vaNTinoTu, in2n2iLa vEn2iloTu, malaya mArutan tiritaru maRukil (cil.5.200-204) Thanks for Dr. S. Palaniappan, Dr. A. Veluppillai and Dr. K. Nachimuthu (tamizh at plearn.edu.pl) for pointing this out. N. Ganesan From gldnreef at PRIMENET.COM Mon Sep 15 19:11:33 1997 From: gldnreef at PRIMENET.COM (Trimble) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 12:11:33 -0700 Subject: [ADMIN] new listserv options Message-ID: <161227032457.23782.13436216058833172330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:04 AM 9/15/97 +0100, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: . . . you can instruct listserv not to send >you messages with a particular subject line. In effect, you can censor >your own subscription! > Is "absurd nirukta" a possible subject heading? From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Mon Sep 15 12:30:56 1997 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 14:30:56 +0200 Subject: Q: Tamil literature Message-ID: <161227032453.23782.2875798528000224802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since, so far, nobody seems to have answered, here are a few elements concerning the first point and a subsidiary question (to experts) stemming from the data itself: [did viLari originally denote a paN (approx. a rAga) or the sixth note, as the musical theory would like to explain?] [In other words, is 7_48-1, where it denotes a paN, the only remnant of the old situation inside CilappatikAram ?] ************* DATA ******************* A. The word viLari does not occur inside tEvAram (i.e. the first 7 tirumu_rai) but it is used once inside tiruvAcakam. The reference is: 6-10-2: ... aLi tEr viLari // // olini_n_ra pUmpo_lil uttarkOcama:nkaikk-aracE B. The Tamil Lexicon mentions that viLari(2) has two meaning: 1. The sixth note of the gamut, one of the seven icai; 2. A melody-type of the neytal class, suited for mourning. For the second meaning, it quotes from pu_ram-260 C. Having a look at older literature, we can find occurences inside ku_runtokai (336-3); akam (317-12; 279-11: --> viLari narampu), pu_ram (260-2; 291-4: --> viLarik koTpu), tiNaimAlai nU_r_raimpatu (126-1: --> viLari yA_l) and cilappatikAram (3-76; 3-88; 7-48-1; 17-13-9; 17-15-2; 17-15-4; 17-18-4) [These references are taken from the _Index des mots de la litt?rature tamoule ancienne_, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry, 1970.] In U.V.S. editions we find explainations in terms of viLarip paN at several places: *ku_runtokai 336-3 viLari Arppa --> viLarip paNNaip pOla mu_la:nka *pu_ram 336-2: --> ira:nka_r paNNAkiya viLari *pu_ram 291-4: viLari --> ira:nka_r paN D. In the case of cilappatikAram, the occurrences are sometimes difficult to understand precisely (they stand in the middle of long technical musical explainations) . Fortunately, there is a study by S.Ramanathan: Music in Cilappatikaram (Madurai Kamaraj University, 1979). He lists many quotations and organizes the available information in easy to consult charts. One should refer to his book in order to try to get at the meaning more precisely. However, of course, he might be rationalizing something which was not so systematic but it should be a good starting point, as can be seen from the differences between translators, who have probably struggled (see: E. Appendix, and especially 3_76 and 3_88) as I would do, between the text and its commentaries (arumpatavurai and aTiyArkkunallArurai). E. Appendix (excerpts from three published translations: the cilappatikAram passages containing the word viLari) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***Ramachandra Dikshitar*** ###Desikan (and Dani?lou)### |||R.Parthasarathy||| +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***Ramachandra Dikshitar*** ***17_13-9: She made them stand in the traditional order (according to the arrangement of the seven strings in the yA_l) and gave them names appropriate to their acting. Beginning from the western end, the regular places (of these girls) were kural, tuttam, kaikkiLai, u_lai, iLi, viLari and tAram. These are the names which were given by the fragrant haired lady (MAtAri). ###Desikan (and Dani?lou)### (viLari = "La") ###17_13-9: Allant de l'Ouest vers l'Est, elle appela les vierges Do, R?, Mi, Fa, Sol, La et Si, car tels furent les noms donn?s par M?dari aux tresses parfum?es. |||R.Parthasarathy||| (viLari = "Dha") |||17_13-9: // She made them stand in the traditional order, // // And gave the name of a musical note to each: // // Sa, Ri, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, and Ni. MAtari of the fragrant hair // // Gave these names which also represented // // Clockwise their positions in the round dance.// ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***17_15_2 & 17_15_4:*** She (who stood at the place) of the kural was named MAyava_n. She (who stood at the place) of iLi was called (by the name of) the victorious BalarAma. [.....] u_lai and viLari joined the white Balarama. KaikkiLai stood to the left of Pi_n_nai. The good viLari stood to the right of tAram. ###17_15_2 & 17_15_4: La fille qui ?tait le Do jouait le r?le de Krishna. Le Sol ?tait le brave Balar?ma. .... Fa et La se joignirent au blanc Balar?ma. Mi se pla?a aupr?s du Si. L'honn?te La se tint ? la droite du Si. |||17_15_2 & 17_15_4: // Sa played MAyava_n; Pa, the victorious BalarAma; // // ..... // // Ma and Dha [[stood]] next to BalarAma; Ga, // // To the left of Pi_n_nai; and Dha to the right of Ni. // ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***17_18-4: (the damsel representing) the kural began to sing in a low tone, the (damsel representing) the iLi to sing in a level tone, and (the damsel representing) the tuttam to sing in a high tone. The low singer representing viLari in her low pitch followed the tone of her ally the tuttam. ###17_18-4: Alors le Do fit r?sonner sa note grave, le Sol fit entendre le son moyen, et le Si sa note ?lev?e. Puis la chanteuse qui ?tait le La chanta sa note, moins aig?e que son alli?e le Si. |||17_18-4: // Sa began to sing on a low note; // // Pa, on a median note; and Ri, on a high note.// // Dha, on a low note, sings for her friend Pi_n_nai. // ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***7_48_1: O evening, during that charming viLarippAlai peculiar to the residents of the maritime tract, you made iLi blended with kiLai (kaikkiLai). O evening, even as you made iLi join with kiLai, you are able to take away my life. Please yourself. May you live long. ###7_48_1: O soir! dans la charmante gamme descendante que chantent les peuples de la mer vous avez m?l? la quarte ? la tierce, irr?conciliables ennemis! O soir, si tu peux cr?er l'harmonie entre une tierce et une quarte tu peux aussi prendre ma vie. Fais comme il te plaira. Je te souhaite longue vie. |||7_48_1: //When the fishermen sang the sweet viLari raga // // The fifth note blending with the third, // // Evening, you stayed with me. Charmed // // By the fifth note blending with the third, // // You stayed with me. Ruthless at plunder, // // Take my life. O evening, may you live forever // +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***3-76: Then there was the master of the lute of the fourteen strings. In order to produce the seven pAlai notes he would conjointly sound the respective strings in the lute, known as the tAram, and the kural, and bringing them to the central part of the lute he would tune the kaikkiLai part of the instrument. Similarly, touching the other stout string on the tAram side and the other two slender strings on the kural side and bringing them to the central part of the lute, he would tune the viLari part of the instrument. ###3-76: Puis venait le ma?tre du luth aux quatorze cordes. Pour ?tablir les sept notes du mode il faisait r?sonner ensemble les deux cordes donnant la tonique et la note aigu? qui sont au centre de l'instrument, et sur lesquelles on peut accorder la tierce. Puis accordant la corde grave du c?t? de l'aigu et deux cordes aigu?s du c?t? de la tonique, il accordait la sixte. |||3-76: // Her lute player was a wizard. To establish // // The seven scales within the pattern // // Of fourteen notes, he half plucked the low first // // And the high seventh to tune the third. // // The sixth he produced by the remaining half // // Of the elegant and robust seventh which now vanished // // Into the third. As the sixth faded, the third // // Dissolved with it. ... // +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***3_88: .......... In a definite order, the notes would arise: e.g. paTumalaippAlai from kaikkiLai, sevva_lippAlai from tuttam, kOTippAlai from tAram, viLarip- pAlai from viLari, mE_rcempAlai from iLi. ###3-88: ................. Les s?quences [qui forment les modes] apparaissaient dans un ordre pr?vu: en partant de la tierce on obtenait la gamme appel?e Padumalai. De la seconde commen?ait le mode Shevvali; de la septi?me le mode K?di; et de la sixte le mode Vilari; de la quinte le mode M?rshem. ............ 3-88: // ... In order, the scales // // Would arise: the paTumalai from the third, cevva_li // // From the second, arum from the first, kOTi // // From the seventh, viLari from the sixth, and mE_rcem // // from the fifth. ... // +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ At 22:44 04/09/1997 BST, you wrote: > > >9/4/97 > >Queries: Tamil literature >************************** > >Greetings. This is N. Ganesan from Houston. >I am finalizing a commentary for Padikkaasu Pulavar's >Paambalangaarar Varukkak KOvai, a 17th century Tamil pirapantam. >In this endeavour, I am getting great help from >Mr. S. Srinivasan of Delhi Tamil sangam, Sri. M. K. Raman, >(a student of U.V. Saminathaiyar), and >Sri. S. K. Ramararajan (Kamparaman) > >I need help in two problems. >1) Kamparaman says that he vaguely remembers R. P. Sethu Pillai's >quote from Tevaram in an essay. Ravanan sings in the paN (raagam) >called viLari to please Siva (while lifting Kailasam) > >"veLLi malaik kiizhirunthu viLari paaTum" > >I could not locate this in Tevaram. May be, this is from >one of 12 tirumuRais. Any help? > >Is there any other occurence of "viLarip paN' anywhere else >in tamil literature? > > >2) In the Varukkak Kovai, there is a sentence: >"maNam koNTu tenRal kamukil ulAviya". >- "Like the Southern breeze taking on the >pleasant smells of different flowers in a park" ... > >This is a really hint by the heroine to her husband >that his relationship to other women & Devadasis >is not appreciated. > >Sri. Kambaraman told me that in Cilappatikaaram, >Kovalan is compared to "Thenral". >UVS writes that "thenRal Kovalanukku uvamai". >I don't have UVS' edition here. >I need the two lines of Cilampu where >Kovalan is compared to "Thenral". > > >Thank you very much. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan >nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov > > > From c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA Mon Sep 15 19:45:54 1997 From: c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA (Chris Austin) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 15:45:54 -0400 Subject: Vedic Concordances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032461.23782.820660247027693182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone inform me about any new Vedic Concordances which have become available, e.g. from the Hoshiapur Vedic Institute, etc. Thanks in advance ****************************** * Chris Austin * * Concordia University * * Department of Religion * * Montreal, Canada * * c_austi at alcor.concordia.ca * ****************************** From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 16 01:47:19 1997 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:47:19 -0700 Subject: Vedic Concordances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032472.23782.11015525498949035207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 3:45 PM -0400 9/15/97, Chris Austin wrote: >Could anyone inform me about any new Vedic Concordances which have become >available, e.g. from the Hoshiapur Vedic Institute, etc. Thanks in advance There is Alexander Lubotsky's A Rgvedic Word Concordance published as monographs 82 & 83 by the American Oriental Society in 1997, and based on Holland & van Nooten's Rg Veda published in the Harvard Oriental Series. The monographs distributor may be reached at < Hope this helps. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 598 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 16 01:51:43 1997 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:51:43 -0700 Subject: Vedic Concordances: Notice Message-ID: <161227032475.23782.2049159666251914846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I said earlier: "The monographs distributor may be reached at " Please note that I have no connection whatsoever with this or any other publisher. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Sep 15 21:56:59 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 21:56:59 +0000 Subject: Vedic Concordances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032467.23782.12451420684977998571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I bought most (all?) of these from Motilal Banarsidass in Delhi, this May. They had several copies. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. FAX +44-171-611-8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Mon Sep 15 22:53:40 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 00:53:40 +0200 Subject: IITS-Cologne, Germany Message-ID: <161227032470.23782.8337785336902089962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, the new schedule for the academic wintersession 1997/98 of the Cologne Institue for Indology and Tamil (IITS) can now be seen at: http://www.rrz.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.e.html Tobias ********PLEASE,NOTE: CHANGE OF ADDRESS!!*********************************** Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg Duerenerstr. 272, 50935 Koeln, Germany Fon: 0049-221-4302193 e-mail: grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/dig/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ //OM/ SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/ SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/ SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/ MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/ OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Sep 16 06:43:07 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 02:43:07 -0400 Subject: Q: Tamil literature Message-ID: <161227032479.23782.16261359767541881921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-15 08:53:19 EDT, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes: << [did viLari originally denote a paN (approx. a rAga) or the sixth note, as the musical theory would like to explain?] >> Originally viLari was the sixth note. The viLarip paN referred to the rAga obtained by having the viLari as the first note and modal shift of the tonic. The current Carnatic appellation of this paN is tODi rAga. Regards S. Palaniappan From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Sep 16 12:38:19 1997 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 07:38:19 -0500 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227032495.23782.8189293292901058919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ditte Koenig wrote: > > Does anyone know the address and/or Fax and/or e-mail of Dr. Domenico > Faccenna? > Thanks in advance! Ditte Bandini > -- > Dr. Ditte Bandini > > Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften > >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< > Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg > > Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 > mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de > http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html If you tell me where he is (Italy? What city?) I will ask our (very kind) Dept. secretary (I am in the USA at the moment). -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** From ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Sep 16 15:28:24 1997 From: ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ditte Koenig) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 08:28:24 -0700 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227032477.23782.9835870021434408485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the address and/or Fax and/or e-mail of Dr. Domenico Faccenna? Thanks in advance! Ditte Bandini -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Sep 16 12:51:42 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 08:51:42 -0400 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) Message-ID: <161227032501.23782.8702076718298218246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-16 06:24:13 EDT, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes: << What you say seems logical at first but the point I tried to make using quotations in my former posting was that in Ku_runtokai and Pu_ram you only come across viLarip paN. >> If you look at akam.279.11, it is clear that 'viLari' is a note. The interpretations of S. Ramanathan have some errors. Please refer to 'pazantamizilakkiyattil icaiyiyal' by V. P. K. cuntaram, (doctoral dissertation under S. Ramanathan) which updates the information on ancient Tamil musicology and points out the problems with the interpretations of earlier musicologists such as ApirakAm paNTitar, vipulAn2antar, and S. Ramanathan. The basic notes are kural, tuttam, kaikkiLai, uzai, iLi, viLari, and tAram. There are no other names for these notes. On the other hand viLarippAlai/paN is also known as neytal yAz. So, the name of the note viLari must precede the name viLaripAlai/paN. Regards S. Palaniappan From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 16 15:58:55 1997 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 08:58:55 -0700 Subject: Vedic Concordances In-Reply-To: <01INPFUFWYR8A4LFPE@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227032513.23782.17866092423913987936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 9:58 AM +0100 9/16/97, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: >Lubotsky's Rgvedic Word Concordance, (AOS vol. 82-83), which I have not yet >seen myself but which according to the author gives the word PLUS the full >line >in which it occurs, In fact, it does not provide a full line, but the corersponding pAda. For every entry the number of ocurrences is provided as well as the list of pAda locations in which the particular word is found. For repeated pAda-s only the first occurrence is quoted and the rest are cited. The words are organized following Grassman's dictionary. with some exceptions. There is also a two-page list of entries that differ from the Pada-pATha. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 16 08:23:14 1997 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 09:23:14 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] new listserv options Message-ID: <161227032482.23782.17287040304989185490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:04:35 +0100 Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >>A particularly subversive new feature (could be very tempting sometimes) is that you can instruct listserv not to send you messages with a particular subject line. In effect, you can censor your own subscription! And Trimble wrote: >>Is "absurd nirukta" a possible subject heading? What one would also need is an option to exclude messages from certain senders. This would also stimulate the self-censoring faculty which most scholars are expected to have, since writing too many/long weird messages will at some point become counter-productive. From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Sep 16 14:42:00 1997 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 09:42:00 -0500 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227032504.23782.6154846805795584828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ditte Koenig wrote: > > Enrica Garzilli wrote: >> >> > Thank you for your message and offered help. Well, I don?t know in which > city he lives or works. In any case he is in Italy and concerned with > excavations of Stupas in Swat (Pakistan). If you could help I would be > very pleased! > Herzliche Gruesse > Ditte Bandini > > Dr . Ditte Bandini > > Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften > >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< > Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg > > Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 > mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de > http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html In this case, you could ask Prof. Maurizio Taddei, he is in the project, and he is a great, famous archeologist (and a *gentleman*). He is the Ordinarius of Oriental Archeology in Naples. Prof. M. Taddei Dipartimento degli Studi Asiatici Istituto Universitario Orientale Piazza S. Domenico Maggiore, 12 80134 Napoli Please convey my best to him. Herzlicle Gruesse, Enrica Garzilli -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Tue Sep 16 07:51:43 1997 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 09:51:43 +0200 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) Message-ID: <161227032484.23782.4301993822005214963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:43 16/09/1997 -0400, S.Palaniappan wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-15 08:53:19 EDT, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes: > ><< [did viLari originally denote a paN (approx. a rAga) > or the sixth note, as the musical theory would like > to explain?] > >> >Originally viLari was the sixth note. The viLarip paN referred to the rAga >obtained by having the viLari as the first note and modal shift of the tonic. >The current Carnatic appellation of this paN is tODi rAga. > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > What you say seems logical at first but the point I tried to make using quotations in my former posting was that in Ku_runtokai and Pu_ram you only come across viLarip paN. Inside CilappatikAram, viLari is (but for one exception) the sixth note. Some new theory might have used terms which were already current. Coming to the identification of viLari in terms of modern rAga-s, S.Ramanathan says (Music in Cilappatikaaram, p. 21) that the notes of viLarippaalai are (sa, ri-1, ga-1, ma-1, ma-2, dha-1, ni-1) (This is deduced from a Zodiac explaination). He concludes that: "It skips the pancama but takes both varieties of madhyama. There is no corresponding raaga in South Indian music." However, later (on page 42), he associates tODi with the paN "cevvazhiyaazh" and the paalai "cevvazhi". So, some mystery remains. Regards -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD From amayc at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Tue Sep 16 13:54:27 1997 From: amayc at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Amarjit) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 09:54:27 -0400 Subject: Digest Message-ID: <161227032506.23782.4801300790434509006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone tell me how I can get the Digest Version instead of individual mail messages send to me. Praim From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 16 08:58:05 1997 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 09:58:05 +0100 Subject: Vedic Concordances Message-ID: <161227032486.23782.3996910536040465560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:45:54 -0400 Chris Austin wrote: >>Could anyone inform me about any new Vedic Concordances which have become available, e.g. from the Hoshiapur Vedic Institute, etc. Thanks in advance As far as I know the Vaidika-Padaanukrama-Kosa, ed. Vishva Bandhu, in five volumes, divided over sixteen part is still available, they only doubled the prices last January. On this monument of Vedic lexicography see W. Rau's detailed review in Kratylos, Jahrgang 28, where one also finds a list of additional indices of specific texts or specific areas of Vedic literature. The "really" Vedic parts (esp. those on the Samhitaas) of the Hoshiarpur Padaanukrama-Kosa are excellent, the parts on Vedaangas have several drawbacks. Another old but excellent concordance is M. Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance (HOS 10, 1906), and the same author's Rig-Veda Repetitions (HOS 20, 24, 1916); since Bloomfield other Vedic material has of course become available. But the enquiry is about new Vedic Concordances, and here I am only aware of Lubotsky's Rgvedic Word Concordance, (AOS vol. 82-83), which I have not yet seen myself but which according to the author gives the word PLUS the full line in which it occurs, a useful feature for Rgvedic word studies. Lubotsky's text is the one of the recent van Nooten-Holland edition (HOS 50), which, incidentally, did not take into account the amendments to the text suggested by C.G. Kashikar (CASS studies no. 1, Poona, 1973). From c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA Tue Sep 16 14:11:09 1997 From: c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA (Chris Austin) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 10:11:09 -0400 Subject: Online Searchable Vedic Conc. In-Reply-To: <199610081543.PAA00858@agora.stm.it> Message-ID: <161227032508.23782.7821662336283511255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members of the list; thank you for your reference to Lubotsky's AOS RV Concordance. However I am also looking (in vain) for any searchable Vedic text indexes on the WWW. I have heard about the MhBh site and was hoping there was a searchable RV samhita, AV samhita etc. In fact any such site featuring texts up until middle-late Upanisads would be of tremendous help. Thank you again for any assistance you may offer. ****************************** * Chris Austin * * Concordia University * * Department of Religion * * Montreal, Canada * * c_austi at alcor.concordia.ca * ****************************** From davidi at MAIL.WIZARD.NET Tue Sep 16 15:29:25 1997 From: davidi at MAIL.WIZARD.NET (David R. Israel) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:29:25 -0400 Subject: Digest Message-ID: <161227032511.23782.10327148431760421482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Priam -- > Can someone tell me how I can get the Digest Version instead of > individual mail messages send to me. 1. send a message to this address: LISTSERV at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK 2. in the body of the message, put these words only: SET INDOLOGY DIGEST 3. send it. You'll get a confirmation from the mother computer advising you of your settings. Also note, you can toggle back to nodigest by doing the same thing, sending this message: SET INDOLOGY NODIGEST If you do that, you'll first get a cumulative digest for all the posts up to that point (since the prior digest -- probably sent out every night at midnight, or something -- anyway that's fairly common for listservs, but may vary); and then you'll again be getting the individual messages. Posting this, as others may wonder. By the way, now that this is a listserv instead of a listproc, some readers may be interested in this command (which can be sent to the same LISTSERV@ mother computer address): REVIEW INDOLOGY BY COUNTRY That will generate (i.e., will have send back to you in a jiffy) a listing of the subscribers & their addresses, itemized by country. Quite a hefty list . . . cheers, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE Tue Sep 16 10:32:00 1997 From: William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE (William Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:32:00 +0100 Subject: address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032489.23782.16963639725472327635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have an e-mail ( or surface mail) address for Dr Thomas E. Wood ( University of California?). He has recently published a work on Nagarjuna. Thanks in advance William.Smith at orient.su.se From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 16 10:40:59 1997 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:40:59 +0100 Subject: IIAS-Newsletter no. 13 Message-ID: <161227032491.23782.12512569966421538388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now available online (http://iias.leidenuniv.nl): the IIAS Newsletter no. 13 (Summer 1997), with several articles/conference reports/ announcements on South Asia, among them: - Sanjoy Bhattacharya: An official policy that went awry: the WW II propaganda campaign against the Indian National Congress. - S.N. Sridhar: Center for India Studies Opened at SUNY, Stony Brooks. - Michael Hutt: New MA Degree at the South Asia Department, SOAS. - Aminul Haque Faraizi: Why do Development Projects 'stink' in Bangladesh? - Suvarnalata Rao: Raga: the Dynamic Melody. - Jan E.M. Houben: Philosophy and Philology East and West (1): Towards a Global Reservoir of Idea-o-diversity. - Jackie Assayag: The Resources of History: Traditions: Transmission or Intervention. - Jan Brouwer: Culture Communication and Power. - Thomas de Bruin: Literary and Oral Traditions in India. - Vasudha Dalmia: Charisma and Canon: The Formation of Religious Identity in South Asia. - Victor A. van Bijlert: Armed Resistance in Bengal (on some new publications). From William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE Tue Sep 16 12:46:33 1997 From: William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE (William Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 13:46:33 +0100 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227032493.23782.12476907435086332583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for an e-mail ( or surface mail) address for Dr Thomas E. Wood ( University of California?). He has recently published a work on Nagarjuna. Thanks in advance William.Smith at orient.su.se From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Tue Sep 16 20:50:55 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 13:50:55 -0700 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) In-Reply-To: <199709160751.JAA156066@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227032520.23782.6382281280249659018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > S.Ramanathan says (Music in Cilappatikaaram, p. 21) that the notes > of viLarippaalai are (sa, ri-1, ga-1, ma-1, ma-2, dha-1, ni-1) > (This is deduced from a Zodiac explaination). He concludes > that: "It skips the pancama but takes both varieties > of madhyama. There is no corresponding > raaga in South Indian music." > > However, later (on page 42), he associates tODi > with the paN "cevvazhiyaazh" and the paalai "cevvazhi". > > So, some mystery remains. The following points should clear up the mystery, as far as the musical aspects go. I do not know the textual evidence first hand. 1. S. Ramanathan draws a distinction (very much based on the textual evidence, I think) between a paalai and a paN. Roughly, a paalai is more akin to a scale (meLa, in more modern terms), while a paN is a more a full-fledged melody (rAga). 2. viLarippAlai comes from the technique of repeated kural tiripu (graha bheda, or modal shift of tonic), in the course of which one gets a scale which omits the fifth, and has the two fourths in succession. Ramanathan is correct in saying that there is no corresponding rAga in south Indian music. He does not equate viLarippAlai with the Carnatic toDi rAga. 3. He does equate cevvazhippaN with toDi. Is cevvazhippaN related to viLarippAlai in the texts? The two certainly have some similarities. The only difference between them is that cevvazhi has one uzhai (fourth) and one iLi (fifth), whereas viLarippAlai has two uzhais (both the perfect and the augmented fourths) and no iLi. All the other notes are the same. This might account for both of them being connected to neytal and with mourning. However, the two are by no means identical, in a musical sense. Note that cevvazhi does not have two uzhais (madhyamas). It has the normal structure of a heptatonic scale, and it takes the minor variety of each note. 4. Where Ramanathan talks of cevvazhi, he does not get it from the technique of shifting the tonic. Rather, this comes from a circular technique called vaTTappAlai, in which pairs of notes are related to each other in terms of a kural-iLi relationship, i.e. consonance. If we take iLi to be a perfect fifth, and assign numerical ratio values, it would be 3/2. I'm pretty certain this ratio is implied in the texts, so that assigning numerical ratios is not too far off the mark. Anyway, the technicalities aside, what is interesting is that the vaTTappAlai does not give a scale like the viLarippAlai, with two fourths and no fifth. Instead, it gives the neytaliyAzh, which is a scale without a kural (shaDja, in more familiar terms). It has the augmented uzhai (fourth) and the iLi (fifth). However, it has both the minor and major second (tuttam/Rshabha), and all other notes are of the major variety. Ramanathan says that this is called a tiRanil paN, i.e. an impracticable melody. The cevvazhippaN is therefore derived from the neytaliyAzh, by redefining all the relationships with respect to the minor second, not according to the vaTTappAlai technique. This reconstituted paN then has the normal structure, with one variety of each note, from kural to tAram. The scale now corresponds to the scale of toDi of contemporary Carnatic music. Note that if we simply redefine the neytaliyAzh notes with respect to the minor second, and not according to the vaTTappAlai, we would get viLarippAlai again. It is only in this rather convoluted theoretical sense that viLarippAlai and neytaliyAzh (the mother, so to speak, of cevvazhi) are related. However, once cevvazhi is reconstituted, according to the rules of vaTTappAlai, the scales of cevvazhi and viLarippAlai are remarkably similar, as mentioned in 3 above. 5. There is sufficient evidence to identify pAlaiyAzh with the modern scale of harikAmbhoji. If we keep deriving scales by shifting the tonic, starting from pAlaiyAzh, we get six other scales. Roughly the same seven scales can be obtained from bharata's shaDja grAma too (provided we assign the same numeric ratio values to the two descriptions), and they also correspond to the various Greek modes. One of these scales will correspond exactly to the scale of modern toDi. This scale is not the viLarippAlai, although I don't recollect its name right now. The viLarippAlai clearly has two uzhais (fourths) and it has no iLi (fifth). In the current Carnatic terminology, the seven scales mentioned above would include hanumattoDi, naTabhairavi, kharaharapriyA, harikAmbhoji, dhIraSankarAbharaNam and mechakalyANI. The seventh scale would correspond to the viLarippAlai, and is not found in contemporary practice. Vidyasankar ps. There are more detailed descriptions as well as a comparison with bharata's descriptions, and definite numeric ratios, at my website. The URL is http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~vidya/music/srutis.html This was written in a rush of youthful enthusiasm (not that I'm very much older/wiser now!), when I was very much taken up with the theory of 22 Srutis/mAttirais in an octave. So there might be stuff in there which reads too much into or maybe misinterprets the textual evidence. Also, all my information about the Tamil references comes from S. Ramanathan, and I haven't read the later publications which clarify things more. I would be grateful if one of you can point specific problems with them, other than the obvious fact that the older writers very probably did not think in terms of numeric ratios at all. From ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Sep 16 21:09:58 1997 From: ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ditte Koenig) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 14:09:58 -0700 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227032498.23782.4625374847017666537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli wrote: > > Ditte Koenig wrote: > > > > Does anyone know the address and/or Fax and/or e-mail of Dr. Domenico > > Faccenna? > > Thanks in advance! Ditte Bandini > > -- > > Dr. Ditte Bandini > > > > Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften > > >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< > > Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg > > > > Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 > > mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de > > http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html > > If you tell me where he is (Italy? What city?) I will ask our (very > kind) Dept. secretary (I am in the USA at the moment). > -- > Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) > Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 > 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) > Editor-in-Chief, > Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) > Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) > ************************************************************** Thank you for your message and offered help. Well, I don?t know in which city he lives or works. In any case he is in Italy and concerned with excavations of Stupas in Swat (Pakistan). If you could help I would be very pleased! Herzliche Gruesse Ditte Bandini -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Tue Sep 16 21:24:03 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 14:24:03 -0700 Subject: EuroEnglish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032524.23782.10069016503341370198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the whole, Mark Twain's plan is much better conceived, and should be recommended to her majesty's government! Notice that right at the beginning, Twain wants to retain c till an adequate replacement can be found for ch. The author of the new EuroEnglish essay overlooks this, and uses the word "change" two paragraphs after getting rid of c. Vil ze drem bikom a nytmar? Long live English spelling. :-) Vidyasankar On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > [...] > > By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing > > "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" > > kan be droped from vords kontaining "ou"; similar changes vud of kors be ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. > > > > After zi fifz yer, ve wil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer wil be no > > mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech > > ozer. > > > > ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU! > > This is obviously a "remake" of one of Mark Twain's satires. He > projected a "twenty-year plan" for a better English spelling: From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Tue Sep 16 21:42:03 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 14:42:03 -0700 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032527.23782.9226471190344217230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I missed a phrase in a crucial sentence in my previous post on cevvazhippaN today. The correct version is below. On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, I wrote: > Anyway, the technicalities aside, what is interesting is that the > vaTTappAlai does not give a scale like the viLarippAlai, with two fourths > and no fifth. Instead, it gives the neytaliyAzh, which is a scale without > a kural (shaDja, in more familiar terms). It has the augmented uzhai > (fourth) and the iLi (fifth). However, it has both the minor and major > second (tuttam/Rshabha), and all other notes are of the major variety. > Ramanathan says that this is called a tiRanil paN, i.e. an impracticable > melody. The cevvazhippaN is therefore derived from the neytaliyAzh, by ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > redefining all the relationships with respect to the minor second, not ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > according to the vaTTappAlai technique. This reconstituted paN then has ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > the normal structure, with one variety of each note, from kural to tAram. Read "not in the kural tiripu manner, but according to the vaTTappAlai" instead of "not ......" in the marked sentence above. cevvazhi is obtained from neytaliyAzh, by redefining the notes with respect to the minor second, according to the vaTTappAlai technique, and not by a simple shift of tonic. Vidyasankar From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 17 00:32:43 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 17:32:43 -0700 Subject: Non EuroEnglish, sed Indo-english Message-ID: <161227032532.23782.9542865102666233654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik vuyastk rites: >Since INDOLOGY is centrally concerned with language studies, I thought the following text which is "doing the rounds" would be interesting even if not perfectly relevant. Enjoy! > Veri veri enjoyabel, but u missed a veri valyubel development vich took plase in India..you seem to think that the You-nighted Kingdum(b) pioneered this, naah, not troo..the credit should go to India..er, I mean Indiya( as an aside, why is it that the Brits never give the Indians credit for anything:-)... the only way of explaining it is to shrug ones shouders and remember the Latin pun "Non Angeli, sed Angli"( They are not the Angels, they are ( afterall) the British) FYI,some of these spellings have been adopted in India on a semi-official basis...I remember seeing one in Calcutta where a government office called itself "Howsing opheesh" also, in some zoo( in which city, I forget)I remember seeing the following notice- "Chilren, keep away from munkees".In the Bay area, I'm told, there is an Indian restaurant which has the following items on its menu:" Meet Sandwhich" and "Gorebanzo beens kurry"...We have also gone a step further and simplified the very odd English singular-plural business and "standardized" them. The plural of mouse is mice, but plural of house is houses...this has been changed to hice..."there are three hice on this road; Which is your house?" is what was asked of a friend of mine. Also note that the language spoken in Holland is Hollish, not Dutch- Afterall in England, they speak English, in Poland Polish, so it is obvious that they should speak Hollish in Holland, no? Last but not the least, the correct spelling/synonym of attorney/barrister is liar, not lawyer...."My uncle is a famous liar, he will become a judge soon" was the boast of one of my friends in high school( There are parts of India where lawyer is pronounced like "liar")..also makes everything more meaningful.... All those jokes apart I have two questions for you: 1. Isn't it true that English did lose a vowel in the 16th century i.e. the vowels then were a,e,i,o,u and ae, which was eliminated for some reason..anybody know why? 2. More importantly, in Skt, why do we find the alphabet having the "l~" vowel that comes after r~ i.e. the alphabet runs formally as : a A e ee u U r~ r~~ and then "l~" i.e. I don't think it was ever used( or am I wrong here?)Can anybody please tell me more about the history of this vowel? Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Wed Sep 17 00:48:49 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 17:48:49 -0700 Subject: Non EuroEnglish, sed Indo-english In-Reply-To: <199709170032.RAA19392@f50.hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227032534.23782.455054150195225543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, S Krishna wrote: [..] > 2. More importantly, in Skt, why do we find the alphabet having the "l~" > vowel that comes after r~ i.e. the alphabet runs formally as : a A e ee > u U r~ r~~ and then "l~" i.e. I don't think it was ever used( or am I > wrong here?)Can anybody please tell me more about the history of this > vowel? It is used in the root klp, from which by come words like kalpa, kalpanA, kalpita, etc. I don't think it is used in any other word. Vidyasankar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Sep 16 17:26:09 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 18:26:09 +0100 Subject: EuroEnglish Message-ID: <161227032518.23782.18168857676109976442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since INDOLOGY is centrally concerned with language studies, I thought the following text which is "doing the rounds" would be interesting even if not perfectly relevant. Enjoy! -- The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EC rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favor of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e" in the language is disgraseful, and it should go away. By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be droped from vords kontaining "ou"; similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zi fifz yer, ve wil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer wil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU! From lnelson at PWA.ACUSD.EDU Tue Sep 16 18:44:32 1997 From: lnelson at PWA.ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 18:44:32 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Ecology Conference (fwd) Message-ID: <161227032545.23782.15340129712568503276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded from Chris Chapple. Please contact him for information. LN ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: cchapple at popmail.lmu.edu Subject: Hinduism and Ecology Conference Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:49:15 -0700 A conference on Hinduism and Ecology will be held at the Harvard University's Center for the Study of World Religions from Thursday, October 2, through Sunday, October 5. This conference is part of a series directed by Lawrence Sullivan of the Center and coordinated by Professors Mary Evelyn Tucker and John Grim of Bucknell University. The convenors for the Hinduism and Ecology conference are Christopher Key Chapple of Loyola Marymount University and Arvind Sharma of McGill University. In addition to private funding obtained to support this series of conferences, funds from the Dharmam Hinduja Indic Research Center will help support the Hinduism and Ecology conference. The program is listed below. If you would like to receive more information on the conference, please contact me at cchapple at popmail.lmu.edu Chris Chapple Professor of Theological Studies Loyola Marymount University Los Angeles, California 90045 310-338-2846 HINDUISM AND ECOLOGY Thursday, October 2 7:30p.m. Plenary Address Chair: Arvind Sharma, McGill University Hinduism, Gandhi, and Patterns of Development in India Dr. T.N. Khoshoo, Former Minister of Environment for the Government of India; Currently Distinguished Fellow, Tata Energy Research Institute Friday, October 3 9:00-10:30a.m. Introductory Session Welcome Christopher Key Chapple, Loyola Marymount University (Chair) and Arvind Sharma, McGill University, Co-conveners Ecology and Hindu Religion O.P. Dwivedi, University of Guelph The Five Great Elements (Panca Mahabhuta): An Ecological Perspective K.L. Seshagiri Rao, Encyclopedia of Hinduism and Indic Religions Respondent: George James, University of North Texas 11:00-12:30p.m. Gandhi and Ecology Chair: Mary Evelyn Tucker, Bucknell University The Inner Logic of Gandhian Ecology Larry D. Shinn, Berea College Gandhi and Deep Ecology Vinay Lal, University of California, Los Angeles Respondent: Kamla Chowdhry, Society for Promotion of Wasteland Development 1:30-3:30p.m. Contemporary Ecological Issues Forests Chair: John Grim, Bucknell University If You Cut One Branch You Cut My Finger: Court, Forest, and Environmental Ethics in Rajasthan Ann Gold, Syracuse University Sacred Plants and Forests: Lessons from the Ramayana David Lee, Florida International University Sacred Groves and Ecology: Ritual and Science Frederique Apffel-Marglin, Smith College Pramod Parajuli, Syracuse University Respondent: Frank J. Korom Museum of International Folk Art, Sante Fe 4:00-5:50p.m. Rivers Chair: Lawrence Sullivan Center for the Study of World Religions Separate Domains: Hinduism, Politics and Environmental Pollution Kelly D. Alley, Auburn University River of Love in an Age of Pollution David L. Haberman, Indiana University Sacred Rivers, Sacred Dams: Visions of Social Justice and Sustainable Development along the Narmada William Fisher, Harvard University Circumambulating the Namada: Damming a Sacred Landscape Chris Deegan, The School for International Training Respondent: Anne Feldhaus, Arizona State University Saturday, October 4 9:00-10:30a.m. Women's Issues and Ecology Chair: Arvind Sharma, McGill University Indian Feminist Responses and Challenges to Environmental Population Paradigms Jael Silliman, University of Iowa The Ritual Capsule of Durga-Puja: An Ecological Perspective Madhu Khanna, Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts Respondent: Rachel McDermott, Barnard College 11:00-12:00 noon Women's Issues and Ecology, Continued Chair: Christopher Key Chapple Loyola Marymount University Women and the Earth: The Art of Symbolic Expression Vijaya Nagarajan, University of San Francisco Respondent: Kusumita Pederson, St. Francis College II. Hinduism's Response to Ecological Issues 1:30-3:00p.m. Literature as Ecological Resource Chair: John Grim, Bucknell University Nature Romanticism and Violence in Rig Vedic Interpretation Laurie L. Patton, Emory University Environmental Consciousness in the Dharmasastras and the Arthasastras Mary McGee, Columbia University Respondent: Julius Lipner, University of Cambridge 3:30-5:00p.m. Literature as Ecological Resource, Continued Chair: Lawrence Sullivan Center for the Study of World Religions In the Wilderness...What? The Forest in the Sanskrit Epics Philip Lutgendorf, University of Iowa Literary Foundations for an Ecological Aesthetic T.S. Rukmani, Concordia University Respondent: Frank X. Clooney, Boston College 7:30p.m. Plenary Address Chair: Arvind Sharma, McGill University Can Hindu Beliefs and Values Help India Meet Its Ecological Crisis? Anil Agarwal Director, Centre for Science and Environment, New Delhi Sunday October 5 9:00-10:30 a.m. Krishna, the Bhagavad Gita, and Ecology Chair: Christopher Key Chapple, Loyola Marymount University Krishna and Vrindavan: Theology and Play of Ecology Shrivatsa Goswami, Sri Caitanya Prema Samsthana Reading the Bhagavad Gita from an Ecological Perspective Lance Nelson, University of San Diego Practical Hindu Ecology Ranchor Prime, International Consultancy of Religion, Education and Culture Respondent David Eckel, Boston Univesity 11:00-12:30p.m. General Session: Panel Discussion on Policy Implications Chair: Mary Evelyn Tucker, Bucknell University Participants: Anil Agarwal, Centre for Science and Environment Harry Blair, Bucknell University Christopher Key Chapple, Loyola Marymount University Kamla Chowdhry, Society for Promotion of Wasteland Development Shrivatsa Goswami, Sri Caitanya Prema Samsthana T.N. Khoshoo, Tata Energy Research Institute Arvind Sharma, McGill University From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Tue Sep 16 16:52:27 1997 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 18:52:27 +0200 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) Message-ID: <161227032516.23782.16534755688737041759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:51 16/09/1997 -0400, S. Palaniappan wrote: >If you look at akam.279.11, it is clear that 'viLari' is a note. I am not sure it is so clear. There is an unpublished translation of Akam by V.M. Subramanya Ayyar (who was an assistant of U.V.S.) in the French Institute Library (Pondichery & Paris) The translation he gives for the passage you refer to is: "... at this season when the water is crystal clear and the voice of the joyful indian cuckoo which perches on the branch of profuse flowers combines with the string of the small lovable yA_l from which is produced a sweet and mournful note viLari wakes up people from sleep ..." [ ........... tIm toTai viLari narampi_n nayavaru cI_riyA_l mali pUm po:nkar maki_l kura_r kuyiloTu puNar tuyil eTuppum pu_nal teLi kAlaiyum ] [akam:279_10-13] To me the "mournful note" which is mentionned here is probably not a single note (i.e. one of the seven notes, as you advocate it is). But, of course, this is subjective and the data is scarce. Regards -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 17 02:00:12 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 19:00:12 -0700 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) Message-ID: <161227032547.23782.3253102557859081817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>To me the "mournful note" which is mentionned here >>is probably not a single note (i.e. one of the seven notes, >>as you advocate it is). >> >>But, of course, this is subjective and the data is scarce. >> >>Regards >> >>-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD >> >> DEvarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma writes: >Can a single note evoke emotions? Can a single note be mournful? > >sarma. Well, I have seen this description in many of the commentaries on Ragas written in recent years aimed at a knowledgable non-Indian audience in the case of Hindustani ragas. The tivra madhyama, for example, invokes the feeling of "gambhira", says one sleeve note which features the work of Hariprasad Chaurasia, the flautist.I remember reading a commentary a long time ago, by Ranade( I think) which says that it is possible to work out the feeling resulting from a raga by knowing the vAdi and the samvAdi, for each note has defined properties. It is here,if my memory serves me correctly, he says the tivr gAndhAr , as in bhUp( Karnatic mOhanam) is full of exuberance. I had to agree with him in that I never heard a raga which had the tivr gAndhAr and still sounded forlorn. I believe people who have paid careful attention to these things over a period of time become sensitive enough as to react even to a single note which would allow them to ascribe properties to a given note. Even for people whose knowledge of music is average( as mine), I think the relative effect of a given note can be found out if we just hum a fixed set of notes and change a single one amongst them i.e. komal to tIvr or vice versa- as an example, Mohanam/bhUp( sung with higher of the two g s) is full of joy, singing the same with the lower of the two gas( everything else remaining same) makes me feel a little sad. Likewise, Hamsadhvani with the higher of the two g s makes one feel enthusiastic, singing it with the lower of the 2 g s puts one in a more serious mood i.e. like sitting for an examination, an unpleasant yet unavoidable situation:-)...if this were to happen consistently for a no of cases, I would tend to think that involving a given note in the fabric of a raga would have a specified effect, which in turn can be attributed, atleast partly, to the note all by itself. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Wed Sep 17 03:13:29 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 20:13:29 -0700 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032550.23782.9985227763083183319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think Palaniappa is right in saying that the word narampu refers to the individual note/string. Besides the straightforward linguistic meaning, there is a practical matter which should decide the issue. Let us leave the comparison of the octave to the zodiac signs aside, as it could just be poetic in origin, and not have anything practical to do with music. How does one execute the vaTTappAlai or the kural tiripu in real life? The conceptual difference between the kural tiripu (standard shifting of the tonic) and the vaTTappAlai is this. When shifting the tonic, you maintain the interval relationships within an octave, but redefine them with respect to the pitch of the new tonic. In the vaTTappAlai technique, you keep the tonic constant, and directly change the distribution of intervals within the octave. From the excerpts of aTiyArkkunallAr that are given in S. Ramanathan's thesis, this seems possible only if each string is tuned to an individual note. Then, kural tiripu can easily be done by choosing a reference string, and retuning all other strings with respect to it. The tuning of the kural string would change in the process. On the other hand, vaTTappAlai would be done by keeping the kural string at a constant pitch and retuning the other strings as dictated by the various consonance relationships of a scale. In either case, the verbal description implies the retuning of strings. Surely, the practice must have predated the time of aTiyArkkunallAr's text itself. The interchangeable use of the word yAzh to mean both an instrument and a scale (e.g. marutayAzh, neytaliyAzh) is also explained thereby. Simply, a given scale and an instrument that was tuned to that scale were both referred to by the same name. Similarly, in the nATya SAstra, bharata's demonstration of the shaDja and madhyama grAmas on the cala and acala vINAs can only be done with multi-stringed instruments, with each string tuned to a different note. Now, this brings into question the standard notion that the vINA-s of bharata and the various yAzh-s in Tamil literature were fretted instruments. (Some contemporary musicologists insist that the yAzh-s were fretted instruments, and that they are the ancestors of today's vINA-s.) These instruments were probably more like harps/santoors/svar-maNDals. If so, the old story in which nIlakaNTa yAzhpANar was unable accompany a singer on his yAzh is also explained. The melody got the name yAzhmuRippaN (nowadays identified with aTANa), on account of this. If the yAzh were anything like a modern fretted stringed instrument, there should have been no problem in reproducing any of the standard vocal features on it. On the other hand, if the yAzh were more like a harp, the task would have been impossible. Vidyasankar ps. Contemporary Indian music seems to have followed in the tradition of the vaTTappAlai, more than the mUrchana scheme described in early Skt texts. The tonic is kept constant, and in an instrument like the Sitar, the frets are moved around, in order to play a different rAga. If at all it is attempted, mUrchana within the elaboration of a rAga is quite brief, and drifting completely to the new scale is avoided. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Sep 17 00:29:18 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 20:29:18 -0400 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) Message-ID: <161227032529.23782.5996918048884205068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-16 12:55:03 EDT, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes: << There is an unpublished translation of Akam by V.M. Subramanya Ayyar (who was an assistant of U.V.S.) in the French Institute Library (Pondichery & Paris) The translation he gives for the passage you refer to is: "... at this season when the water is crystal clear and the voice of the joyful indian cuckoo which perches on the branch of profuse flowers combines with the string of the small lovable yA_l from which is produced a sweet and mournful note viLari wakes up people from sleep ..." [ ........... tIm toTai viLari narampi_n nayavaru cI_riyA_l mali pUm po:nkar maki_l kura_r kuyiloTu puNar tuyil eTuppum pu_nal teLi kAlaiyum ] [akam:279_10-13] To me the "mournful note" which is mentionned here is probably not a single note (i.e. one of the seven notes, as you advocate it is). >> If you look at the Tamil text, it is very clear that there is no mention of 'mournful' note. Mr. Iyer has interpreted 'viLari' as viLarip paN. The Tamil text does not say that. The text just has 'viLari narampu'. In ancient Tamil texts, 'narampu' can denote either the note or the string producing that note. 'narampu' is not used to refer to 'paN'. Since each string was tuned to a particular pitch, once the basic 'kural' string was chosen, other strings will be assigned specific notes. Thus one 'narampu' will be assigned to one note. So, it is clear that the text is referring to one note only. Similarly, in aka. 317, the following lines tuvaittezu tumpit taviricai viLari utaittuviTu narampin2 immen2a imirum 'viLari' denotes the note and the 'narampu' denotes the string which produces that note. Obviously, the context of bumblebees humming will not produce a multi-note melody but will sound more like an electronic 'sruti' box (at least in my experience). In fact, for both of these poems, the commentary based on UVS's notes gives the meaning as just a note and not as a paN. As for CilappatikAram, often using 'viLari' to denote the note except for a few instances, the reason is simple. The excellent analysis by aTiyArkkunallAr of the structure of the epic given in the commentary on the 'patikam' shows that iLaGko has masterfully woven the epic around a model of Tamil interior landscape. You can see kuRiJci, mullai, marutam, neytal, pAlai landscapes with the associated thematic elements. In such a setting, viLarip pAlai or neytal yAz will occur only where it occurs in the kAn2alvari section when kOvalan and mAtavi are singing on the seashore nuLaiyar viLari noTitaruntIm pAlai (7.48.1) or when the author is giving technical descriptions of how the modal shift of the tonic is done as in kOTi viLari mERcempAlai yen2a nITik kiTanta kELvik kiTakkaiyin (3.88-89). In all other places only those 'paN's relevant to the landscape will be mentioned. For example 'mullaiitImpANi' in 'Aycciyar kuravai' section, or 'kuRiJcippaN' in the 'kunRak kuravai' section. So when the word 'viLari' occurs in other contexts, it will only refer to the individual note and not the paN. Regards S. Palaniappan From pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE Tue Sep 16 19:49:19 1997 From: pwyzlic at PWYZ.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 21:49:19 +0200 Subject: EuroEnglish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032522.23782.9409930479832458217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: [...] > By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing > "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" > kan be droped from vords kontaining "ou"; similar changes vud of kors be > aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. > > After zi fifz yer, ve wil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer wil be no > mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech > ozer. > > ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU! This is obviously a "remake" of one of Mark Twain's satires. He projected a "twenty-year plan" for a better English spelling: %% (fortunes) A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling by Mark Twain For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. \bye Peter -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 17 01:06:54 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 02:06:54 +0100 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) In-Reply-To: <199709161652.SAA143580@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227032537.23782.1338772644666050783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:52 PM 9/16/97 +0200, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: >At 08:51 16/09/1997 -0400, S. Palaniappan wrote: > >>If you look at akam.279.11, it is clear that 'viLari' is a note. > >I am not sure it is so clear. > >There is an unpublished translation of Akam >by V.M. Subramanya Ayyar (who was an assistant of U.V.S.) >in the French Institute Library (Pondichery & Paris) > >The translation he gives for the passage you refer to is: > > "... at this season when the water is crystal clear > and the voice of the joyful indian cuckoo which perches > on the branch of profuse flowers > combines with the string of the small lovable yA_l > from which is produced a sweet and mournful note viLari > wakes up people from sleep ..." > > [ ........... tIm toTai > viLari narampi_n nayavaru cI_riyA_l > mali pUm po:nkar maki_l kura_r kuyiloTu > puNar tuyil eTuppum pu_nal teLi kAlaiyum ] > [akam:279_10-13] > >To me the "mournful note" which is mentionned here >is probably not a single note (i.e. one of the seven notes, >as you advocate it is). > >But, of course, this is subjective and the data is scarce. > >Regards > >-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD > > Can a single note evoke emotions? Can a single note be mournful? sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 17 01:32:17 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 02:32:17 +0100 Subject: Non EuroEnglish, sed Indo-english In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032540.23782.12054991455896542611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:48 PM 9/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, S Krishna wrote: > >[..] > >> 2. More importantly, in Skt, why do we find the alphabet having the "l~" >> vowel that comes after r~ i.e. the alphabet runs formally as : a A e ee >> u U r~ r~~ and then "l~" i.e. I don't think it was ever used( or am I >> wrong here?)Can anybody please tell me more about the history of this >> vowel? > >It is used in the root klp, from which by come words like kalpa, kalpanA, >kalpita, etc. I don't think it is used in any other word. > >Vidyasankar > > Also, k.lpta, k.lpti and k.lptika according to Apte's Dictionary. Correct my transliteration if wrong) sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 17 04:03:59 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 05:03:59 +0100 Subject: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032553.23782.9219062831203596721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:13 PM 9/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >I think Palaniappa is right in saying that the word narampu refers to the >individual note/string. Besides the straightforward linguistic meaning, >there is a practical matter which should decide the issue. Let us leave >the comparison of the octave to the zodiac signs aside, as it could just >be poetic in origin, and not have anything practical to do with music. How >does one execute the vaTTappAlai or the kural tiripu in real life? > >The conceptual difference between the kural tiripu (standard shifting of >the tonic) and the vaTTappAlai is this. When shifting the tonic, you >maintain the interval relationships within an octave, but redefine them >with respect to the pitch of the new tonic. In the vaTTappAlai technique, >you keep the tonic constant, and directly change the distribution of >intervals within the octave. From the excerpts of aTiyArkkunallAr that are >given in S. Ramanathan's thesis, this seems possible only if each string >is tuned to an individual note. Then, kural tiripu can easily be done by >choosing a reference string, and retuning all other strings with respect >to it. The tuning of the kural string would change in the process. On the >other hand, vaTTappAlai would be done by keeping the kural string at a >constant pitch and retuning the other strings as dictated by the various >consonance relationships of a scale. In either case, the verbal >description implies the retuning of strings. Surely, the practice must >have predated the time of aTiyArkkunallAr's text itself. > >The interchangeable use of the word yAzh to mean both an instrument and a >scale (e.g. marutayAzh, neytaliyAzh) is also explained thereby. Simply, a >given scale and an instrument that was tuned to that scale were both >referred to by the same name. Similarly, in the nATya SAstra, bharata's >demonstration of the shaDja and madhyama grAmas on the cala and acala >vINAs can only be done with multi-stringed instruments, with each string >tuned to a different note. > >Now, this brings into question the standard notion that the vINA-s of >bharata and the various yAzh-s in Tamil literature were fretted >instruments. (Some contemporary musicologists insist that the yAzh-s were >fretted instruments, and that they are the ancestors of today's vINA-s.) >These instruments were probably more like harps/santoors/svar-maNDals. >If so, the old story in which nIlakaNTa yAzhpANar was unable accompany a >singer on his yAzh is also explained. The melody got the name yAzhmuRippaN >(nowadays identified with aTANa), on account of this. If the yAzh were >anything like a modern fretted stringed instrument, there should have been >no problem in reproducing any of the standard vocal features on it. On the >other hand, if the yAzh were more like a harp, the task would have been >impossible. > >Vidyasankar > >ps. Contemporary Indian music seems to have followed in the tradition of >the vaTTappAlai, more than the mUrchana scheme described in early Skt >texts. The tonic is kept constant, and in an instrument like the Sitar, >the frets are moved around, in order to play a different rAga. If at all >it is attempted, mUrchana within the elaboration of a rAga is quite brief, >and drifting completely to the new scale is avoided. > > The vina used by Samudragupta is clearly a harp as can be seen from the coin. As late as to the time of Krishnadevaraya of Vijayanagar it was necessary to retune the vina for each raga as can be seen from poet PeddanA's Manucharitra. In that poem an attendent tells nAyika: " See, yesterday you were playing NAta with your pointed fingures. You did not touch the veena again and the strings disturbed by the morning breese are doling out NAta notes today at the wrong time ( because NAta is not a morning rAgA). You better retune it to DEzAkshi." For those people who know telugu the poem starts " vAlArun konagOLLa nI valasatan vAinchuchO......" sarma. From ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Sep 17 15:31:16 1997 From: ditte.koenig at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ditte Koenig) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 08:31:16 -0700 Subject: Thanks Enrica Message-ID: <161227032555.23782.16930921899846860416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Enrica, Mille grazie for your help. I know of course who Prof. Taddei is and will contact him! Alles Gute und herzliche Gruesse! Ditte -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Sep 17 14:44:25 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 10:44:25 -0400 Subject: Downloading diacritic Roman fonts for Indian Languages Message-ID: <161227032563.23782.13081182750468657005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For quite sometime, I have been trying to download the Roman diacritic fonts (CSX or Norman) from the the following site ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts I have not been successful. When I download the fonts like tm-csx.zip and open it, the computer (PC) tries to treat it as a data file of an accounting software I have (Bestware) and gives up. Does anybody else know/have these or other similar fonts which I can easily download and install? I would appreciate installation instructions also. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Wed Sep 17 09:46:57 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 10:46:57 +0100 Subject: BASAS and STIMW Message-ID: <161227032557.23782.7054706724830101432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The British Association of South Asian Studies will hold a conference in Manchester, 17th-19th April 1998. An announcement will appear in the October BASAS Bulletin. I have been asked to convene a panel on Sanskrit studies, so if you are within reach of Manchester and can offer a paper in this field I shall be glad to hear from you. BASAS is mainly interested in the contemporary world, politics, sociology, etc., so a paper that bridges the artificial gap between 'indology' and 'South Asian studies' would be particularly welcome. BASAS offers a prize for an outstanding paper by a young scholar at the conference: see below. I am also planning the 15th day conference on the Sanskrit Tradition in the Modern World (STIMW) at Newcastle upon Tyne on Friday, 22nd May 1998. Papers will be circulated in advance, and discussed at the conference without being read out. Please let me know if you are interested, particularly if you can offer a paper. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 BASAS PRIZE Announcing the establishment of the British Association of South Asian studies (BASAS) prize for the outstanding paper given by a young scholar at the 1998 BASAS Annual Conference. The BASAS prize will consist of a monetary award of #100.00. The BASAS prize is intended to encourage young scholars, either studying for a degree in an institution of higher learning and/or be no older than 35 at the time of the 1998 BASAS Annual Conference. The author need not be a member of BASAS. The submission may be in any field related to South Asia or South Asians, not previously published or presented else where, to be submitted in advance to the secretary of BASAS by 15 March 1998 and be presented at the BASAS Annual Conference to be held 17-19 April at the University of Manchester, UK. The judging panel will consist of members of the BASAS Executive Committee and the panel reserves the right not to present the award and will not enter into correspondence concerning its final judgement. Secretary BASAS, Dr Yunas Samad, Department of Social and Economic Studies, University of Bradford, West Yorkshire BD7 1DP, UK. Tel: +44-(0)1274-384804 Fax: +44(0)1274-385295 Email a.y.samad at bradford.ac.uk BASAS http://www.brad.ac.uk/ses/basas1.html From kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Sep 17 16:00:24 1997 From: kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 11:00:24 -0500 Subject: Paper abstract In-Reply-To: <970917104231_-731882084@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032572.23782.5913424175017892411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues: An abstract of the lecture :'LAHORE 1947 - EXPERIENCE OF PARTITION' by Pran Nevile, given on September 12, 1997 at the Asian Studies, UT Austin, is given below: ? ? ? LAHORE 1947- EXPERIENCE OF PARTITION Lahore, the gateway to the Indian sub-continent, had through the centuries attracted trade caravans, plundering hordes and conquerors in search of wealth and power. A city ruled by Hindu kings, Mughal emperors and Sikh monarchs finally came under the British rule in 1849. British Raj brought in its wake an era of unprecedented peace and prosperity. The city acquired the reputation of the Paris of the East. People of different communities lived in perfect harmony. The interplay of historical forces had made the Muslims of Punjab less fanatic and the Hindus and Sikhs less orthodox and ritual conscious than elsewhere in India. Three communities subscribed to a composite Punjabi culture. In the words of Dr.Prem Kirpal, a leading educationist: ? Old Lahore was gay and youthful, moving easily with times, earning well and spending more, receiving joy and shunning gloom ? Warm-hearted and vital people of diverse faiths and traditions, united in confident resolve to enjoy life and reach its peaks. ? >From 1920s the political scene in the Punjab was dominated by the Unionist Party with its ideology of inter-communal harmony and loyalty to the Raj. The Party stood outside the mainstream of either nationalism or Muslim separation but it was overtaken by the political developments in the rest of India which finally led to its collapse in 1946. The Muslim League with its demand of Pakistan, a separate homeland for the Muslims captured the scene. The British announcement of the decision to quit India by June 1948 had a disastrous effect on the situation in the Punjab. Communal riots broke out in Lahore and spread even to rural areas. There were signs of a full fledged civil war in the Punjab. According to the British Plan of 3rd June 1947, it was decided to partition both Bengal and the Punjab and the date of transfer of power was advanced to 15th August, 1947. This led to an exodus of Hindus and Sikhs from Lahore after a spate of bloody riots with untold suffering. Muslims in the East Punjab suffered equally at the hands of Hindus and Sikhs and had to leave their homes. The Boundary Commission chaired by Sir C. Radcliffe gave its award and Lahore went to Pakistan. From April - 1947 there was a concerted Muslim effort to burn the Hindus and Sikhs out of Lahore city. The riots left a legacy of hatred and mistrust and even the police force was communalised. I have vivid memories of those terrible days when my parents were stuck up in Lahore and there was looting and killing going on all over the Punjab. The Partition claimed at least a million lives, while another ten millions were uprooted from their ancestral homes. The extent and horror of slaughter and destruction represents the greatest human tragedy of the century. We Lahorias had to pay a very heavy price for the freedom of India. Apart from the loss of life and property we have to consider the psychological effects of the Partition on the people of two countries. We Lahorias are still groping for an identity and forced to make linguistic and social adjustments. It was a heart rending experience to leave Lahore, the home of our ancestors over the centuries, there was no one left now to look back to. Lahore had Eminent writers of both India and Pakistan. They have produced a vast amount of literature giving moving accounts of the human suffering that accompanied the Partition. My emotional ties to the city of my birth and upbringing have survived even after 50 years and found expression in my book Lahore - A Sentimental Journey. -- PRAN NEVILE, September 12, 1997 ? ? The abstract has also been posted at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/prannevabs.html Thanks. Kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 17 13:05:24 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 14:05:24 +0100 Subject: Non EuroEnglish, sed Indo-english In-Reply-To: <199709170032.RAA19392@f50.hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227032560.23782.6633812841912163884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, S Krishna wrote: > 2. More importantly, in Skt, why do we find the alphabet having the "l~" > vowel that comes after r~ i.e. the alphabet runs formally as : a A e ee > u U r~ r~~ and then "l~" i.e. I don't think it was ever used( or am I > wrong here?)Can anybody please tell me more about the history of this > vowel? It is used in words derived from the root k.lp "to be suitable, to accord with, adapt to, etc.". All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA Wed Sep 17 18:20:59 1997 From: c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA (Chris Austin) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 14:20:59 -0400 Subject: Ayurveda literature In-Reply-To: <199610081543.PAA00858@agora.stm.it> Message-ID: <161227032576.23782.14955179571688949455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone know of an English translation of the Carakasam'hitA other than Dash's? Also, are there any English translations of the _Sus'rutasam'hitA_ or _AshtAn'gahr.daya_? Thanks for your help. Thank you for replying to either Dr.T.S.Rukmani at rukmani at alcor.concordia.ca or to the list. From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Wed Sep 17 15:05:16 1997 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 16:05:16 +0100 Subject: Downloading diacritic Roman fonts for Indian Languages In-Reply-To: <970917104231_-731882084@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032566.23782.7266003653776319160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > For quite sometime, I have been trying to download the Roman diacritic fonts > (CSX or Norman) from the the following site > ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts > I have not been successful. When I download the fonts like tm-csx.zip and > open it, the computer (PC) tries to treat it as a data file of an accounting > software I have (Bestware) and gives up. What exactly do you mean by "download the fonts ... and open it?" The PC fonts on the server you are using are stored in archive files using the zip format: to extract the actual fonts you have to run pkunzip, or some equivalent program, on them. Have you done this? > Does anybody else know/have these or other similar fonts which I can easily > download and install? I would appreciate installation instructions also. > Thanks in advance. Once you have successfully downloaded and extracted the fonts you want, open up Control Panel and double-click on Fonts: then choose "Add fonts" (or whatever exactly it says) and select the new fonts. This will install them: they will be available for use by any program on your machine. Hope this helps. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Sep 17 23:48:52 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 16:48:52 -0700 Subject: Downloading diacritic Roman fonts for Indian Languages In-Reply-To: <970917104231_-731882084@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032585.23782.4117679336098860573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > For quite sometime, I have been trying to download the Roman diacritic fonts > (CSX or Norman) from the the following site > ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts > I have not been successful. When I download the fonts like tm-csx.zip and > open it, the computer (PC) tries to treat it as a data file of an accounting > software I have (Bestware) and gives up. I've experienced this problem before but not with the bombay site. Try holding down [shift] while you click on the filename. Perhaps your browser does not recognize the extension .zip. Go into your browser options can set zip as a valid file extension (zip-application). Best yet is to revert back to the old FTP software... :-> Can't go wrong with the tried and true. > Does anybody else know/have these or other similar fonts which I can easily > download and install? I would appreciate installation instructions also. > Thanks in advance. Installation is fairly straightforward for TrueType fonts in Windows 95. Just copy the fonts to the fonts directory and they should be available. Fot Windows 3.1: open up the Control Panel and choose Add Fonts. Add the fonts, and they should be available for use. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 17 15:58:30 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 16:58:30 +0100 Subject: 20th All India Conference of Linguists at Patiala, November 27-29, 1997 Message-ID: <161227032569.23782.9059335836537965244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 20th All India Conference of Linguists at Patiala, November 27-29, 1997 Forwarded message follows: > Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:30:31 +0500 (GMT+0500) > From: Central institute of indian languages > To: Tanmoy Bhattacharya > Cc: salon at blueskills.com > Subject: Re: SALON:Off-line Newsletter > > Linguistics Society of India in colloboration with the Punjabi University > is holding its 20th All India Conference of Linguists at Patiala on > November 27-29,97. Papers will be presented in the areas of : General > Linguistics, Sociolinguistics, Language Education, Computational > Linguistics etc. Abstract of the papers in 300 words may be > send to Chanchal Singh Kamboj, Secretary Conf., Dept. of Linguistics, > Punjabi University, Patiala 147002, India. The last date of the receipt > of Abstracts is October 15,97. > > Omkar N. Koul From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Wed Sep 17 23:18:10 1997 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Anne Hardy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 18:18:10 -0500 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032583.23782.14703525642663686597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, I am trying to locate (thus far with little success) scholarly materials on the topic of contemporary popular Indian religious art (e.g., books/articles dealing with calender art, 'God posters', etc.). I am interested not only in this form of art as used in strictly religious/devotional contexts, but also its use in Indian commercial/graphic art (e.g., advertisments, product packaging, etc.). Can anyone out there alert me to some relevent materials? Thanks, Kristen Hardy, student of Religious Studies and Sanskrit (University of Manitoba) e-mail: umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Thu Sep 18 01:05:24 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 21:05:24 -0400 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art In-Reply-To: <199709172318.SAA05279@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca> Message-ID: <161227032587.23782.7831087673098553028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Kristen, See, Susan Wadley and Lawrence A. Babb's edited collection _Media and the transformation of religion in South Asia_ (1995) and the references cited therein. The book is organized into three parts, Printed Images, Audio Recordings, and Visual Media. Regards, sushil mittal From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT Wed Sep 17 22:14:07 1997 From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 23:14:07 +0100 Subject: Address In-Reply-To: <341EA598.11AF@urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227032580.23782.2503388672820385925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The home address of Dr. Faccenna is: 15, via B. Stringher, 00191 Rome (tel.36307686). He has no email. You can also try to reach him through the fax of ISMEO (now ISIAO): 6 4873138. Best regards, Raffaele Torella Raffaele Torella, Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" (fax: 6-4451209) From gldnreef at PRIMENET.COM Thu Sep 18 12:27:41 1997 From: gldnreef at PRIMENET.COM (Trimble) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 05:27:41 -0700 Subject: Non EuroEnglish, sed Indo-english Message-ID: <161227032599.23782.6251433295976711594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:48 PM 9/16/97 -0700, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >> 2. More importantly, in Skt, why do we find the alphabet having the "l~" >> vowel that comes after r~ i.e. the alphabet runs formally as : a A e ee >> u U r~ r~~ and then "l~" i.e. I don't think it was ever used( or am I >> wrong here?)Can anybody please tell me more about the history of this >> vowel? > >It is used in the root klp, from which by come words like kalpa, kalpanA, >kalpita, etc. I don't think it is used in any other word. > >Vidyasankar ".L" is the name of a goddess, the mother of the wishing-cow. I think that most other cases of the vowel result from a metastasis from .r to .l for phonological reasons. I always thought that the long version was a logical "contrivance" to support Panini 1.2.27 where vowels are divided into short, long, and superlong (pluta). But I looked in Monier-Williams and found that ".Lii" is an epithet of Siva. Does anyone know of its origin? W. Trimble From ibcindia at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Sep 18 02:54:52 1997 From: ibcindia at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 07:54:52 +0500 Subject: Ayurveda literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032589.23782.14467587942437055718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A new and revised edition of the Caraka Samhita in 5 vols translated by A.C.Kaviratna have been published in Indian Medical Science Series Nos. 41 to 45 published by Sri Satguru Publications, Delhi, India. Sunil Gupta On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Chris Austin wrote: > Would anyone know of an English translation of the Carakasam'hitA other > than Dash's? Also, are there any English translations of the > _Sus'rutasam'hitA_ or _AshtAn'gahr.daya_? Thanks for your help. > > Thank you for replying to either Dr.T.S.Rukmani at > rukmani at alcor.concordia.ca or to the list. > From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Thu Sep 18 07:21:02 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 09:21:02 +0200 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032591.23782.14265841775856622219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:18 17.09.97 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings, > > I am trying to locate (thus far with little success) scholarly >materials on the topic of contemporary popular Indian religious art (e.g., >books/articles dealing with calender art, 'God posters', etc.). I am interested >not only in this form of art as used in strictly religious/devotional contexts, >but also its use in Indian commercial/graphic art (e.g., advertisments, product >packaging, etc.). Can anyone out there alert me to some relevent materials? I am afraid that I cannot give you an exact reference, but there is at least one such book, written, I believe, by a Greek author. This may not be very helpful, but at least you should keep looking. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Thu Sep 18 13:38:00 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: Dr. Jim Schaffer's e-mail address In-Reply-To: <01BCC463.5607F620@ghat.attitude.com> Message-ID: <161227032607.23782.3888545480364715010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jim G Shaffer: < jgs3 at po.cwru.edu > From srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU Thu Sep 18 14:36:25 1997 From: srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:36:25 -0400 Subject: Non EuroEnglish, sed Indo-english Message-ID: <161227032614.23782.14451477911656768257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> W.Trimble asks: >>".Lii" is an epithet of Siva. Does anyone know of its origin? Elementary... the two "i"s of course refer to the two regular eyes of Siva... the third eye is a tad warm, I believe, and hence the "i" puffs up to a ".L". Thus, ".Lii" => trinetra => Siva. Yaaskaly yours, -Srini. From lasic at OEAW.AC.AT Thu Sep 18 08:41:35 1997 From: lasic at OEAW.AC.AT (Horst Lasic) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:41:35 +0200 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032593.23782.9077938503353796377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kristen Anne Hardy wrote: > I am trying to locate (thus far with little success) scholarly > materials on the topic of contemporary popular Indian religious art (e.g., > books/articles dealing with calender art, 'God posters', etc.). I am interested > not only in this form of art as used in strictly religious/devotional contexts, > but also its use in Indian commercial/graphic art (e.g., advertisments, product > packaging, etc.). Can anyone out there alert me to some relevent materials? > > Thanks, > > Kristen Hardy, > student of Religious Studies and Sanskrit > (University of Manitoba) > e-mail: umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca Dear Kristen, At the "Museum f?r V?lkerkunde",Vienna (Austria), there is an exhibition with the title "DIE OLEOGRAPHIERTEN G?TTER, Moderne Druckgraphik in Indien 1890 - 1970." This exhibition demonstrates the influence of modern printing techniques on the production of devotional pictures in India and also their close connection with commercial advertisements and political propaganda. Unfortunately, no catalogue is available (only a very small folder). You can find some information on http://ravel.ifs.univie.ac.at/museum/oleo_g.htm Maybe you should try and contact (with the help of the museum?) Erwin Neumayer and/or Christine Schelberger, who prepared the exhibition. Good luck! Horst Lasic From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Sep 18 09:50:26 1997 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:50:26 +0100 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art In-Reply-To: <199709172318.SAA05279@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca> Message-ID: <161227032595.23782.17445477530290237865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chris Pinney of SOAS in London has worked and published a lot in this area. He's currently in Canberra for a year: you can reach him at Chris.Pinney at anu.edu.au. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Sep 18 17:10:08 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 11:10:08 -0600 Subject: gu.namkudi mastaan caahibu Message-ID: <161227032616.23782.18189492394644579241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many editions of GuNamkuDi Mastan Sahib's songs have come out in the last 120 years or so. His songs are a blend of Tamil Siddhar philosophy and Sufi mysticism. A comparison of Tayumanavar's songs and his songs provide many resembences. Poetry Editions: Mastan Cahipu, Kunankuti, 1788-1835. Kunankuti Mastan Cakipu avarkal patalkal. 1. patippu. Cennai : Tirunelveli Tennintiya Caivacittanta Nurpatippuk Kalakam, 1985. 258 p. ; 19 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.9.M373 A17 1985 Mastan Cahipu, Kunankuti, 1788-1835. Kunankutiyar patar kovai / 1. patippu. Civakankai : Akaram, 1980. xxiv, 245 p. ; 23 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.9.M373 A113 1980 Comparatiive Study: Nayinar Mukammatu, Ci., 1928- Mastan Cakipum Tayumanavarum : or oppu nokku / 1. patippu. Tiruccirappalli : Umaru Patippakam, 1993. xiv, 340 p. ; 22 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.2 .N39 1993 A good book in English: Sahabdeen, A. M. Mohamed (Abdul Majeed Mohamed) The Sufi doctrine in Tamil literature / 1st ed. Colombo-3, Sri Lanka (Ceylon) : A.M.M. Sahabdeen Foundation, 1986. 308 p. ; 24 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.05 .S147 1986 Sincerely N. Ganesan From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Thu Sep 18 10:55:21 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 11:55:21 +0100 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art In-Reply-To: <19970918072101191.AAA192@PPP125.internet.no> Message-ID: <161227032597.23782.9139001994794636888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The book mentioned below is perhaps V. G. Vitsaxis, _Hindu Epics, Myths and Symbols in Popular Illustrations_, published in India 1978, but I don't know the publisher. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > I am afraid that I cannot give you an exact reference, but there is at least > one such book, written, I believe, by a Greek author. This may not be very > helpful, but at least you should keep looking. From AndrewC at MAIL.UCA.EDU Thu Sep 18 13:07:56 1997 From: AndrewC at MAIL.UCA.EDU (Andrew Cohen) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:07:56 +0000 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art In-Reply-To: <3420E93F.5288@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227032627.23782.1801601895174242749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >" This exhibition demonstrates the influence of modern printing > techniques on the production of devotional pictures in India" If you are interested in this aspect, then you need to look at the art of Ravi Varma to understand this development. Andrew Cohen From vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Thu Sep 18 17:10:44 1997 From: vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:10:44 -0400 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032619.23782.15774293306547114715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor H. Daniel Smith, recently retired from the Dept of Religion at Syracuse University, has done a lot of work in this area. One of his articles ("Impact of 'God Posters' on Hindus and their Devotional Traditions") can be found in *Media and the Transformation of Religion in South Asia*. I believe Sushil Mittal has already cited this book. There was also a panel on this theme at the AAR a few years ago (1992 San Francisco?); I recall Professors Constantina Bailly (Eckerd College), Dan Smith (Syracuse) and Jack Hawley (Columbia U) were part of the panel. Dan has donated his *extensive* collection of poster art to the Syracuse University Library. One of his favorite pictures was the bill board ad used by ABT parcel service in India-- that of Hanuman carrying a mountain to Lanka. Jack Hawley has also briefly discussed the popular pictures of Krishna eating butter in his *Krishna, The Butter Thief* (Princeton Univ Press, 1983). I think there are pictures of billboards of Vijaya (or was it Amul?) Butter in this book. Vasudha Narayanan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 18 13:42:01 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 14:42:01 +0100 Subject: long .L In-Reply-To: <199709181227.FAA26986@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: <161227032610.23782.15443413981197958466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've always thought that long vocalit .L was necessary in the Sanskrit alphabet in order to be able to construct sentences saying that it does not exist. All the best, Dominik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 18 13:54:16 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 14:54:16 +0100 Subject: Ayurveda literature Message-ID: <161227032612.23782.18276100993435076734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is also a complete four-volume tr. of Caraka by P.V. Sharma. There is a very old translation of Susruta by Bhishagratna that is available as a reprint (3v.). But it is very idiosyncratic. A better job is the ten volume version by G. D. Singhal, published privately from Benares (or BHU?). Each volume has a different title (e.g., "Fundamental & plastic surgery considerations in ancient Indian surgery") which doesn't help one to find them. The volumes are not in general circulation, but I met Romesh Mittal from DK Agencies earlier in the week, and he said he could supply them. As for the Ah., by far the best tr. is in German, by Kirfel and Hilgenberg (Brill, 1941). The first five chapters were very well done in English by Claus Vogel (Franz Steiner, 1965). A new complete English tr. by K. R. Srikantha Murthy in three vols was completed recently. Krishnadas Academy, Varanasi, 1991-95. A good crib for someone who knows Sanskrit (or even Hindi, perhaps), but not very good for someone with no Indian languages ("Sali, sastika, godhuma, yava, and mudga, which are old by one year (which are light, not lost their potency easily digestable [sic] and strengthening) milk, ghee and flesh of goat and meat of carnivorous animals--all these cure consumption"). Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 18 22:10:47 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:10:47 -0700 Subject: Non EuroEnglish, sed Indo-english Message-ID: <161227032630.23782.2104254270727055947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> W.Trimble writes: > But I looked in Monier-Williams and found that >".Lii" is an epithet of Siva. Does anyone know of its origin? > >W. Trimble I find it a remarkable coincidence that many vowels with the combination { i.e. U: for example }are all references to Ziva....is there any reason for this? Also, can somebody tell me more about each consonant standing for a particular thing i.e. kam stands for water( this appears in the subhsita where the words "kE zava"( corpse in the water) and "kEzava"(viZNu)..i.e. something like "kezavam dr.StvA paNDava: prasannA:(?)" or the kham standing for the sky, as in the derivation of the word khECara for bird...what I'm interested in knowing is the origin/derivation of the meanings.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Thu Sep 18 13:17:14 1997 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:17:14 +0200 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art In-Reply-To: <199709172318.SAA05279@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca> Message-ID: <161227032603.23782.8739294026944827591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I am trying to locate (thus far with little success) scholarly > materials on the topic of contemporary popular Indian religious art (e.g., > books/articles dealing with calender art, 'God posters', etc.). I am interested > not only in this form of art as used in strictly religious/devotional contexts, > but also its use in Indian commercial/graphic art (e.g., advertisments, product > packaging, etc.). Can anyone out there alert me to some relevent materials? Have a look into David J. Dell: Guide to Hindu Religion. Boston 1981 This is an annotated bibliography on everything you need. H. Falk From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Thu Sep 18 13:21:22 1997 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:21:22 +0200 Subject: notice of absense Message-ID: <161227032605.23782.15075598176763695454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Because of a trip to India (19.9. to 15.10.) I will not be in a position to answer private mail for four weeks. Harry Falk From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Sep 18 16:16:05 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 18:16:05 +0200 Subject: ivy's names Message-ID: <161227032634.23782.6578190496577744240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, The belgian scholar Erik Seldeslacht gave me an interresting answer about the ivy and sended me a list of various Indian names for this plant: Beas: Brumbrumdakari (sic) Behar: Lablab Chenab: Kurol Hazara: Arbambal Jaunsar: Mithiari Jhelum: Arbambal, Halbambar Kashmir: Karmora, Mandia Kumaon: Banda Malayalam: Maravala Nepal: Dudela Pashto: Parwata Ravi: Karun (or Karur?), Kuri Sutlej: Kadloli, Kaneri, Kaniuri, Karbaru Tamil: Maravalai Alas, I'm quite ignorant of the modern Indian languages and unable to know the etymologies of this words (except the Pashto one who seems clear). Can specialists help me ? Does it possible that 'brumbrumdakari' comes from 'sound of thunder' + (u)daka ? Thanks in advance, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Thu Sep 18 16:30:00 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 18:30:00 +0200 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032618.23782.15173161286850150957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:55 18.09.97 +0100, you wrote: >The book mentioned below is perhaps V. G. Vitsaxis, _Hindu Epics, Myths >and Symbols in Popular Illustrations_, published in India 1978, but I >don't know the publisher. I think that is the case. As far as I remember, the author compares popular catholic art (saints etc) with the modern Hindu representations of Krishna etc. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Thu Sep 18 17:39:24 1997 From: thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Mr A.J. Thew) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 18:39:24 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] test, please ignore. Message-ID: <161227032623.23782.776387223071502794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please DO NOT reply to this message. From poornima at W-O-I.COM Thu Sep 18 18:47:37 1997 From: poornima at W-O-I.COM (Poornima Kirloskar) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 18:47:37 +0000 Subject: Dr. Jim Schaffer's e-mail address Message-ID: <161227032601.23782.1696337338170321815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all, Would anyone be knowing the e-mail address of : Professor Jim Shaffer Dept of Anthropology Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106 Thanks in advance Poornima Kirloskar Western Outdoor Interactive Mumbai India From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Sep 19 00:06:14 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 19:06:14 -0500 Subject: long .L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032632.23782.944243534621998255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm just wondering why no one is looking at the identification of L^RI as the mother goddess, or the associations with shiva (cf. Bothlingk, Kurzerer Fassung, I Band, p. 265). Also, forms in the root -kL^RIp can be seen. There are uses of L^RIM and L^RiM. We have : AtharvaNadvitIyopaniSad: 394:6 (cf. also 398:6 for L^Ri); vanadurgopaniSad 398: 6; 4.36.4; tripAdvibhUtimahAnArAyaNopaniSad akSamAlikopaniSad (sp?) 5 Perhaps Dr. Olivelle will know more about this collections of passages from "later" upaniSads? I've often wondered about htis vowel myself and do not have the upaniSads above ready to hand-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Thu Sep 18 17:53:41 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 19:53:41 +0200 Subject: long .L Message-ID: <161227032625.23782.6856467567173915395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I've always thought that long vocalit .L was necessary in the Sanskrit >alphabet in order to be able to construct sentences saying that it does >not exist. Hmm. This would apply equally well to any letter Sanskrit didn't have. There's got to be a better way to say this. At least there's got to be a reason why it was necessary to construct sentences saying that long syllabic L didn't exist but not that, say, short E or O didn't exist. From thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Thu Sep 18 18:57:42 1997 From: thewa3 at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Mr A.J. Thew) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 19:57:42 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] test, please ignore. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032628.23782.4342355633460680076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Again, please ignore. This is a timing test. This is a test sig On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Mr A.J. Thew wrote: >Please DO NOT reply to this message. > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 19 03:32:34 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 20:32:34 -0700 Subject: ivy's names Message-ID: <161227032636.23782.17702850263081583128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEar Dr Thillaud, I don't think my message would be of much help to you but I would like to request you for a few clarifications: 1.First of all, are Beas,Behar,Chenab etc languages/ Is it that in these regions( along the rivers by these names) this( the name given by you) is what this plant is called? Punjabi and Kashmiri are the languages that are spoken along these rivers that you mention and I am very surprised that the languages have so many ways of describing the ivy i.e. hedera helix. 2. It is interesting that Tamil and Malayalam call it maravalai and maravalli since Dr Raghuviras English-Hindi dictionary says that it is called maravalli in Hindi also. These would then( reasonably in my opinion) point to some Sanskritic origin ( unless the valli has something to do with the wife of Murugan) 3. You mentioned kanEr as one of the entries...this is a generic term in the Hindi speaking areas for trees belonging to the family to which oleander trees belong as far as I know..."oleander" is the Indian-English term for the yellow variety, think they are used for Siva worship...the oleander is called pIlA kanEr in Hindi ( pIlA=yellow) I am looking forward to your clarifications..... Regards, Krishna >Beas: Brumbrumdakari (sic) >Behar: Lablab >Chenab: Kurol >Hazara: Arbambal >Jaunsar: Mithiari >Jhelum: Arbambal, Halbambar >Kashmir: Karmora, Mandia >Kumaon: Banda >Malayalam: Maravala >Nepal: Dudela >Pashto: Parwata >Ravi: Karun (or Karur?), Kuri >Sutlej: Kadloli, Kaneri, Kaniuri, Karbaru >Tamil: Maravalai ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Fri Sep 19 05:19:44 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 22:19:44 -0700 Subject: ivy's names In-Reply-To: <19970919033234.27338.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227032637.23782.3248387271584518782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, S Krishna wrote: > 2. It is interesting that Tamil and Malayalam call it maravalai and > maravalli since Dr Raghuviras English-Hindi dictionary says that it is > called maravalli in Hindi also. These would then( reasonably in my > opinion) point to some Sanskritic origin ( unless the valli has > something to do with the wife of Murugan) Or equally reasonably to a Dravidian origin for the Hindi word, without bringing in murukan and vaLLi. Vidyasankar From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Thu Sep 18 14:46:22 1997 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 23:46:22 +0900 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032621.23782.15519380294064280921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Kristen Anne Hardy wrote: > > > I am trying to locate (thus far with little success) scholarly > > materials on the topic of contemporary popular Indian religious art (e.g., > > books/articles dealing with calender art, 'God posters', etc.). I am interested > > not only in this form of art as used in strictly religious/devotional contexts, > > but also its use in Indian commercial/graphic art (e.g., advertisments, product > > packaging, etc.). Can anyone out there alert me to some relevent materials? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kristen Hardy, > > student of Religious Studies and Sanskrit > > (University of Manitoba) > > e-mail: umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca > The film critic Chidananda Dasgupta includes a few remarks on what he calls the "Verma model" (named after the painter Ravi Verma) of painting deities in his book "The Painted Face: Studies in India's Popular Cinema", New Delhi 1991: Roli Books. Dasgupta deals with the popular devotional imagery predominantly in terms of its impact on the depiction of gods and goddesses in film and on TV. The most relevant passages are probably the following: "Ravi Verma's anglicized Indian gods and heroes had already established themselves in popular visual culture and set the images of Rama, Sita, the sages and of course the gods themselves through the inexpensive oleographs Verma painted, printed and distributed across the country." (p.21) (this is with reference to the early 20th century) "... the Verma model overflowed the divine molds and spilled over into other popular visual manifestations such as star pinups, beedi and other indigenous smallscale industry product labels, shop signboards, graffiti on the backs of trucks and two wheelers, bazaar photo studio backgrounds for portraiture and, above all, film posters and hoardings and the films themselves, in an extraordinary blend of the realistic and the unrealistic, to create an Indian pop. The main device derived from Ravi Verma is an obfuscation of perspective in an otherwise realistic rendering celebrated in the dialect of a free, primitive draftsmanship. Add to Ravi Verma elements from the quasi-Persian decadent Mughal sentimentality of Abdur Ralman Chughtai seen on Hyderabad's Nirmal ware, on engravings of recumbent females on glass panels in cinemas or on bazaar calendars; the paintings of bathing beauties in skin-clinging saris executed by Hemen Majumdar and 'Mr. Thomas' in Bengal which formed a further bazaar extension of the British academic style and the most sentimental examples of the Bengal school of painting, and you have today's pop visual." (p.21) Regards, Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From HFArnold at AOL.COM Fri Sep 19 05:55:37 1997 From: HFArnold at AOL.COM (Harold F. Arnold) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 01:55:37 -0400 Subject: Popular Indian Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032639.23782.5720545537007165447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/18/97 7:31:53 AM, you wrote: <<> I am trying to locate (thus far with little success) scholarly >materials on the topic of contemporary popular Indian religious art (e.g., >books/articles dealing with calender art, 'God posters', etc.). I am interested >not only in this form of art as used in strictly religious/devotional contexts, >but also its use in Indian commercial/graphic art (e.g., advertisments, product >packaging, etc.). Can anyone out there alert me to some relevent materials? I am afraid that I cannot give you an exact reference, but there is at least one such book, written, I believe, by a Greek author. This may not be very helpful, but at least you should keep looking.>> The book you are referring to may be Hindu Epics, Myths and Legends in Popular Illustrations by Vassilis G. Vitsaxis. It is a retelling of several Indian myths illustrated by popular contemporary posters. From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Fri Sep 19 05:55:52 1997 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 07:55:52 +0200 Subject: ivy's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032641.23782.13446471640773306268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:16 18/09/1997 +0200, you wrote: >Dear Indologists, > > The belgian scholar Erik Seldeslacht gave me an interresting answer >about the ivy and sended me a list of various Indian names for this plant: > >Beas: Brumbrumdakari (sic) >Behar: Lablab >Chenab: Kurol >Hazara: Arbambal >Jaunsar: Mithiari >Jhelum: Arbambal, Halbambar >Kashmir: Karmora, Mandia >Kumaon: Banda >Malayalam: Maravala >Nepal: Dudela >Pashto: Parwata >Ravi: Karun (or Karur?), Kuri >Sutlej: Kadloli, Kaneri, Kaniuri, Karbaru >Tamil: Maravalai > > Alas, I'm quite ignorant of the modern Indian languages and unable >to know the etymologies of this words (except the Pashto one who seems >clear). Can specialists help me ? Does it possible that 'brumbrumdakari' >comes from 'sound of thunder' + (u)daka ? > Thanks in advance, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France For the etymology of NepAlI "dudela" : cf. R.L. Turner, A Comparative and Etymological Dictionary of the Nepali Language, p.314 : dudhe / dude (< sk. dugdha) pertaining to milk. The word appears in the name of various plants, (having in common a white milky sap, I suppose) dudelo (/ dudeulo / dudheulo) laharA : ficus faveolata dudhilo / dudilo "A particular kind of small tree with a white juice, Ficus memoralis. Acoording to the nepAlInighaNTu, the word "dudhe" (milky) is prefixed to the name of various plants in NepalI (latin names as given by the compilers) : dudhe jhAra (154-156) Oxystelma esculentum; Euphorbia thymifolia; Holosterma rheedianum. dudhe maruI laharo (27) : Clematis triloba dudhe bara (560) : ? dudhe birAle laharo (303) : Pueraria tuberosa dudhe laharo (29) : Campylus glaucus According to the same, and probably by analogy of their milky sap with sperm, most of them are supposed to have the property of increasing virility or of curing women's sterility. As to brumbrumdakari, I suppose that it might spell X-kArI (= kArin) i.e. having the sound X (kAra "ifc. terme qui d?signe une lettre, un son, un mot ind?clinable"). Sk. udaka seems (to me) quite unlikely Hope this helps, J.F. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 19 16:00:26 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 09:00:26 -0700 Subject: ivy's names Message-ID: <161227032650.23782.4366544690742060726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, S Krishna wrote: 2. It is interesting that Tamil and Malayalam call it maravalai and maravalli since Dr Raghuviras English-Hindi dictionary says that it is called maravalli in Hindi also. These would then( reasonably in my opinion) point to some Sanskritic origin ( unless the valli has something to do with the wife of Murugan) > to which Vidyasankar wrote: Or equally reasonably to a Dravidian origin for the Hindi word, without bringing in murukan and vaLLi. > Now, Vidyasankar! I knew I was skating on thin ice when I said this:-) I based my argument for SAnskritic origin( Hindi,Tamil and Malayalam borrowed the word from Skt is what I had in mind) on the basis of the fact that it is common in parts of North India to worship Siva with the oleander flowers and also on the basis of the fact that there seem to be so many names for the same plant in the Punjab-Kashmir region supplied by dominique Thillaud( as an analogy, note that the Eskimo languages have 30+ different ways of describing snow, but only one for tree while the opposite is true of many Indian languages,which makes sense if you take statistical incidence/occurence of a plant or snow in a given area into account). The reason why I put in Murugan and VaLLi is because he seems to have been the favorite God as far as flower worship business is concerned and the ending has a certain resembalnce to vaLLi...... Again, no offence meant...and the sum total of our stuff leaves exactly where we were in the first place:-( Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Fri Sep 19 07:16:17 1997 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 09:16:17 +0200 Subject: Aalim aalam In-Reply-To: <01BCC4F0.74266640@ghat.attitude.com> Message-ID: <161227032645.23782.8166529343823972705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone help me to find out what "Aalim aalam" means in Islam? Some students have come across this term and have approached me for its meaning. I have absolutely no idea what that can mean. Is it a coranic or islamic concept? Or could it be some new islamic computer software? Thanks. A. Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From poornima at W-O-I.COM Fri Sep 19 11:37:46 1997 From: poornima at W-O-I.COM (Poornima Kirloskar) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 11:37:46 +0000 Subject: Dr. Jim Schaffer's e-mail address Message-ID: <161227032643.23782.5223052359275014313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Mittal, Thanks a lot for Jim Shaffer's address Poornima ---------- From: Mittal Sushil[SMTP:mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA] Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 7:08 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Dr. Jim Schaffer's e-mail address Jim G Shaffer: < jgs3 at po.cwru.edu > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1409 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Hrid at AOL.COM Fri Sep 19 18:02:16 1997 From: Hrid at AOL.COM (Howard Resnick) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 14:02:16 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227032654.23782.6011656398551670925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hindus commonly believe that the Sanskrit language is sacred, eternal, and even the "mother" or origin of other languages. Even the script, deva-nagari, is taken to be a product or instruct of divine communication. My question: Can we trace anything like a history of this view of Sanskrit? We know that the RV, and so many other texts, attribute divine powers, multi-dimensions etc. to VAc, and that Arya-s are distinguished by their proper speech. But what about early references specifically to the Sanskrit language? For that matter how old is the name "sanskrit"? Do any early texts, teachers etc talk specifically about the Sanskrit language as somehow ontologically or culturally privileged above other languages? Many thanks for your help in this regard. Howard Resnick From dwenzel at BISHOP.BISHOP.HAWAII.ORG Sat Sep 20 00:20:19 1997 From: dwenzel at BISHOP.BISHOP.HAWAII.ORG (Duane Wenzel) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 14:20:19 -1000 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032670.23782.9172845823943837784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > I am working on the 17th and the 20th Kandas of the Shaunakiiya > Atharvaveda and badly need to consult the edition of Shankar Pandurang > Pandit (4th volume which should contain these Kandas). If anyone knows of > an American university library which has this volume, I may be able to > order it on inter-library loan through the library of the University of > Michigan. This title is available at the University of Pennsylvania according to my Sanskrit professor, Walter Maurer, who used it this past year when he was on sabbatical working on his latest book, which will be selections from the AV. However, he said the volumes are very brittle and therefore, probably not good candidates for interlibrary loan, but you could try. Duane Wenzel Library Chairman Bishop Museum 1525 Bernice St. Honolulu, Hawaii 96817 From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Sep 19 18:27:52 1997 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 14:27:52 -0400 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: <970919140046_1042548514@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032656.23782.15068282415937557429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working on the 17th and the 20th Kandas of the Shaunakiiya Atharvaveda and badly need to consult the edition of Shankar Pandurang Pandit (4th volume which should contain these Kandas). If anyone knows of an American university library which has this volume, I may be able to order it on inter-library loan through the library of the University of Michigan. Pandit marks the Galita (repeated and hence omitted passages) in his Padapatha (while the VVRI edition does not do that). This information is relevant to my current work on the recitational variations of the AV like Jatapatha and Kramapatha. Thanks for any information. Madhav Deshpande From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Sep 19 18:54:32 1997 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 14:54:32 -0400 Subject: EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT from SARAI Message-ID: <161227032658.23782.897345469803840526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet). If you have any comments or questions, PLEASE CONTACT THE EVENT ORGANIZERS DIRECTLY. Do not reply to this message for further information. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ================================================== SITA SYMPOSIUM The Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center at Columbia University is pleased to be the main sponsor for a "Sita Symposium" to be held at Columbia University, May 1-3, 1998. This symposium will explore the many dimensions of Sita, the idealized woman and wife of Indian myth and imagination. Scholars and artists will present us with images and analyses of the Sita of myth, literature, religion, media, and the family, in different historical periods as well as in the present. By drawing together a range of perspectives and presentations on Sita, we hope to gain a better understanding of the exhortation to "Be like Sita!" in several different historical, cultural, and textual contexts, and to discern the power of this role model over time and across cultures. This symposium is also meant to further our listening and discussion about the process of embracing, rejecting and transforming role models, such as Sita. The symposium will be open to the public. The program of speakers, artists, and exhibits will be posted on the internet later in the academic year. For more information about the Sita Symposium contact Professor Mary McGee, Department of Religion, Columbia University, mm383 at columbia.edu. AWARDS FOR STUDENT RESEARCHERS Among the presentations at the symposium, we would like to have a panel on concepts of Sita within the South Asia communities in North America. We have set aside monies for two awards for students (undergraduate or graduate), who have conducted or are interested in conducting research on this subject in their locale. The award would cover travel, lodging and meals for the student who would present her or his findings during the symposium. The award will be made on the basis of research already conducted. Candidates for the award must be recommended by a faculty member, and supporting letters and materials will be due by March 15th, 1998, with a decision made by March 30th about the award recipients. Colleagues who have students who would be interested in competing for these two awards should contact Professor Linda Hess for more information: From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Sep 19 22:08:09 1997 From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 15:08:09 -0700 Subject: Aalim aalam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032664.23782.11265819522530250496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is quite possible that it is the name of a computer software. "Aalim" means one who knows the sciences and "aalam" means the world. The words are formed from the three radical consonants ain, laam and miim. Put together without any vowel or reduplication or jazam the word a(a)l(a)m(a) means "he knew", i.e. third person, singular, past perfective. According to the grammar rules of the Arabic language, the meaning of this basic form of the verb will change with change in vowel. As it does, for example, in your message. Hope this helps. On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Anand Nayak wrote: > Could someone help me to find out what "Aalim aalam" means in Islam? Some > students have come across this term and have approached me for its meaning. > I have absolutely no idea what that can mean. Is it a coranic or islamic > concept? Or could it be some new islamic computer software? Thanks. A. > Nayak > > Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous > sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful > sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole > sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy > > INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS > INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN > Universit? de Fribourg > Route du Jura > CH-1700 Fribourg > Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) > 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) > Fax; 026/ 300 9768 > > URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr > > Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK > From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Sep 19 22:53:08 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 15:53:08 -0700 Subject: Aalim aalam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032666.23782.9533364446084954490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Anand Nayak wrote: > Could someone help me to find out what "Aalim aalam" means in Islam? Some > students have come across this term and have approached me for its meaning. > I have absolutely no idea what that can mean. Is it a coranic or islamic > concept? Or could it be some new islamic computer software? Thanks. A. > Nayak With no intent of offense, there is a phrase "allam .gallam" meaning "nonsense", as in the Urdu "allam .gallam bakanaa" (= to talk nonsense). But I doubt this would be found in an Islamic text. In Arabic "`alim" means "wise, one who knows" (an epithet applied to God) and "aalam" means "world" (as in the epithet of a Mu.gal emperor "Aalamgiir"), so roughly "`alim aalam" would mean "one who knows the world/knower of everything(?)". Could very well be the name of a software company. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From c722773 at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Fri Sep 19 21:00:11 1997 From: c722773 at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU (Rahul Arora) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 16:00:11 -0500 Subject: Help Wanted Message-ID: <161227032662.23782.9881992029277115325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> i am working on a project to convert romanised english to devanagari.we have a book of about 800 pages , written in sanskrit, which we have translated into romanised english using special characters,from the keyboard. we are looking for a way so that we can convert this romanised english book to devanagari font without using the keyboard. if anyone knows anything about it please help us out. thanks rahul arora From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Sep 19 23:01:32 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 16:01:32 -0700 Subject: Help Wanted -- Romanised text to Devanagari. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032668.23782.3761703078176994658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Rahul Arora wrote: > i am working on a project to convert romanised english to devanagari.we > have a book of about 800 pages , written in sanskrit, which we have > translated into romanised english using special characters,from the > keyboard. we are looking for a way so that we can convert this romanised > english book to devanagari font without using the keyboard. if anyone > knows anything about it please help us out. > thanks By "romanised English" do you mean romanisied Devanagari (Devanagari in Roman script with diacritics)? Your write that you have "translated" this text using the keyboard. Which program did you use for this task? Depending upon your input scheme and the format in which the text is saved, there are a few ways you could produce Devanagari output from what you currently have. Depending on what input scheme you used you would probably to convert your existing transliteration to a different scheme. By doing this you could set yourself up for running a typesetting program called TeX with one of three Devanagari packages: Devnag, ITRANS, or Skt. This seems the most plausible, not to mention efficient, method of producing Devanagari script output with your text without "using the keyboard". Regards, Anshuman Pandey From elizarev at MEGABIT7.RU Fri Sep 19 12:47:11 1997 From: elizarev at MEGABIT7.RU (Alexandre V. Elizariev) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 16:47:11 +0400 Subject: =?utf-8?B?0J7RgtCy0LXRgjogQWFsaW0gYWFsYW0=?= Message-ID: <161227032648.23782.14592425392523709998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May it be just Persian for "[person] knowing the universe", a savant? ('aalem 'aalam )The spelling of the both words in modern Persian may be the same. Alexandre Elizariev Could someone help me to find out what "Aalim aalam" means in Islam? Some students have come across this term and have approached me for its meaning. I have absolutely no idea what that can mean. Is it a coranic or islamic concept? Or could it be some new islamic computer software? Thanks. A. Nayak From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Sat Sep 20 00:55:25 1997 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 16:55:25 -0800 Subject: ke;sava.m etc. verse Message-ID: <161227032674.23782.8076751493797683941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna wrote: >can somebody tell me more about each consonant standing for a particular thing i.e. kam stands for water( this appears in the subhsita where the words "kE zava"( corpse in the water) and "kEzava"(viZNu)..i.e. something like "kezavam dr.StvA paNDava: prasannA:(?)" or the kham standing for the sky, as in the derivation of the word khECara for bird...what I'm interested in knowing is the origin/derivation of the meanings....< ke;sava.? patita.? d.r.s.tvaa dro.no har.sam upaagata.h / rudanti kauravaa.h sarve haa ke;sava katha.m gata.h // (;Saar:ngadhara-paddhati 527). There are some ekaak.sara-ko;sas in Sanskrit which contain lists of one-phoneme or one-syllable words. Claus Vogel's book on Sanskrit lexicography should have their list. That many of these ekaak.sara words have Tantrika or religious meanings is generally known. Whether one can give truly historical etymologies of them is something I do not know. One author, probably named ;Sa:nkaraananda, tried to use the traditional information to decipher the Indus Valley script. Ashok Aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 19 17:12:05 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 18:12:05 +0100 Subject: ivy's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032652.23782.5656210102232039172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:19 PM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, S Krishna wrote: > >> 2. It is interesting that Tamil and Malayalam call it maravalai and >> maravalli since Dr Raghuviras English-Hindi dictionary says that it is >> called maravalli in Hindi also. These would then( reasonably in my >> opinion) point to some Sanskritic origin ( unless the valli has >> something to do with the wife of Murugan) > >Or equally reasonably to a Dravidian origin for the Hindi word, without >bringing in murukan and vaLLi. > >Vidyasankar > > Here the word valli appears to have the familiar meaning `creaper'. sarma. From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Fri Sep 19 20:17:02 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 20:17:02 +0000 Subject: YakSa and Yaku-cult on Andamans Message-ID: <161227032660.23782.6553984719669854074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am searching for any material eluding the relation between the Yaku-cult of the Andamans and the YakSa-goddess as presented in the classical literature in India. Here especially the topic of karNa-Ashrutya-vidyA (magic transmitted by words only?) is of interest and the power of subduing (shAnti) wild YakSas. Does anyone knows literature that goes beyond of Hastings ERE? From omar at ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU Sat Sep 20 00:32:58 1997 From: omar at ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU (iao) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 20:32:58 -0400 Subject: Aalim aalam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032672.23782.7824507531801624618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to add to this, and to put more simply, "aalim" means the one who knows, reference to a scholar, especially religious scholar in Persian and Urdu usage of the terms. the second word "aalam" means the world/universe and in Urdu also refers to a 'condition' for want of a better word. and yes it is also the name of a computer software. Irfan Omar Temple University On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Naseem Hines wrote: > It is quite possible that it is the name of a computer software. "Aalim" > means one who knows the sciences and "aalam" means the world. The words > are formed from the three radical consonants ain, laam and miim. Put > together without any vowel or reduplication or jazam the word a(a)l(a)m(a) > means "he > knew", i.e. third person, singular, past perfective. According to the > grammar rules > of the Arabic language, the meaning of this basic form > of the verb will change with change in vowel. As it does, for example, in > your message. Hope this helps. > > On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Anand Nayak wrote: > > > Could someone help me to find out what "Aalim aalam" means in Islam? Some > > students have come across this term and have approached me for its meaning. > > I have absolutely no idea what that can mean. Is it a coranic or islamic > > concept? Or could it be some new islamic computer software? Thanks. A. > > Nayak > > > > Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous > > sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful > > sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole > > sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy > > > > INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS > > INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN > > Universit? de Fribourg > > Route du Jura > > CH-1700 Fribourg > > Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) > > 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) > > Fax; 026/ 300 9768 > > > > URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr > > > > Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK > > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Sep 20 09:25:15 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 10:25:15 +0100 Subject: Help Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032676.23782.2016175296211063520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Rahul Arora wrote: > we are looking for a way so that we can convert this romanised english > book to devanagari font without using the keyboard. if anyone knows > anything about it please help us out. thanks This is easily done using TeX or LaTeX together with the Devanagari font and pre-processor by Charles Wikner. See the INDOLOGY file archives (via http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html) and the Comprehensive TeX Archive Network (CTAN) at ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk under tex-archive/languages All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Sat Sep 20 19:41:12 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 12:41:12 -0700 Subject: ke;sava.m etc. verse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032681.23782.17989019608647959041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: [..] > That many of these ekaak.sara words have Tantrika or religious meanings is > generally known. Whether one can give truly historical etymologies of them > is something I do not know. One author, probably named ;Sa:nkaraananda, > tried to use the traditional information to decipher the Indus Valley > script. And also inscriptions from Sumeria and Crete, published by Abhedananda Academy of Culture, Calcutta. Sankaraananda is a 20th century author. Some interesting titles of his are - Hindu States of Sumeria, The last days of Mohenjodaro, The Rgvedic Culture of the pre-historic Indus, Decipherment of inscriptions on Phaistos disc of Crete and The Dictionary of Indian Hieroglyphs. The Rgvedic Culture of the pre-historic Indus has also been published by Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, Calcutta, in 1943. And presumably because of the publisher's name, Library of Congress annotations {see LC Call No.: Microfilm BUL-ENG-358 (D)} identify this Sankaraananda as a disciple of Anandaatman (13th-century)! Vidyasankar From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Sep 20 20:31:09 1997 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 13:31:09 -0700 Subject: mukta nirukta Message-ID: <161227032683.23782.2839490839672090090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:17 PM 9/10/97 PDT, S. Krishna wrote, concerning my last name: >Reimann is obviously from Skt"ShreemAn" Yes, that used to be the accepted derivation, but I can now confidently announce that Reimann has been metrically restored to rayimaan, 'wealthy'! (rei-mann < ra-yi-maan). Best wishes, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Sat Sep 20 13:25:13 1997 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:25:13 +0100 Subject: Help Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032678.23782.5036126678931167388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Rahul Arora wrote: > i am working on a project to convert romanised english to devanagari.we > have a book of about 800 pages , written in sanskrit, which we have > translated into romanised english using special characters,from the > keyboard. we are looking for a way so that we can convert this romanised > english book to devanagari font without using the keyboard. if anyone > knows anything about it please help us out. > thanks Anshuman Pandey and Dominik Wujastyk have both suggested using (La)TeX, and I would agree that this is probably the best route to take. For my money, Velthuis's Devnag package (which is also the basis of the Itrans system, or was last time I looked) still gives the best output. But it would be necessary to know more about the form of the text that you have. If it is a Romanised representation of some sort, it should be easy to convert, and I might well be able to help. (But with any luck I'll be leaving for India for a month fairly soon.) John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Sep 21 02:10:01 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 19:10:01 -0700 Subject: TeX and Babel. Message-ID: <161227032685.23782.3308492124474416214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Speaking of TeX, Dominik, I recall that you once told me that you knew of someone working on a Devanagari hyphenation pattern for Babel. Do you happen to know what became of this project, and who was taking the brave step? Regards, Anshuman Pandey From martinez at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Sat Sep 20 18:49:28 1997 From: martinez at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Javier Martinez Garcia) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 20:49:28 +0200 Subject: Unicode Script management Message-ID: <161227032680.23782.5841410189985741605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TITUS is now testing UNICODE script management. For this purpose, we have prepared some test pages containing a full account of UNICODE characters with their equivalents in UTF-8 (the pages themselves are encoded using UTF-8). They can be used to check for your WWW browser's capabilities as to representing UNICODE / UTF-8 encoding. We have sample pages containing mixed transcriptional text in Avestan, Middle Persian and Sanskrit and some sample texts for Classical Sanskrit & Vedic Sanskrit Visit the URL http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/unitest.htm J.M. -- Dr. Fco. Javier Mart?nez Garc?a ~ Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Frankfurt ~ Postfach 11 19 32 ~ D-60054 Frankfurt tel. +49- 69- 7982-2847; (sekr.) -3139 ~ fax. +49- 69- 7982-2873 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Sep 21 14:22:06 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 15:22:06 +0100 Subject: TeX and Babel. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032687.23782.5816021732783025331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Anshuman Pandey wrote: > Speaking of TeX, Dominik, I recall that you once told me that you knew of > someone working on a Devanagari hyphenation pattern for Babel. Do you > happen to know what became of this project, and who was taking the brave > step? The person is Jun Takashima, who also developed the Kannada metafont and preprocessor. Jun is a member of this list, so he may be able to let us know how things have progressed. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Sep 21 22:50:25 1997 From: kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 17:50:25 -0500 Subject: Paper abstract In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032692.23782.4877445523513435550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues: An abstract of the lecture :'Auchinleck and the Partition' --by Robert Osborn, Col. (Retired) CEO, Guildford Corporation given on September 18, 1997 at the Asian Studies, UT Austin, is given below: ? Auchinleck and the Partition --by Robert Osborn, Col. (Retired) CEO, Guildford Corporation ? The partition of India, fifty years ago, is seen as a tragedy by some, the proper answer by others and a great sadness by a few. However, if one simply observes man's inhumanity to man in the twentieth century, one thing is certain that tribalism is not dead. Would it have been possible to avoid the carnage that took place on the sub-continent in August in 1947? The answer is, of course it was possible. Yet the ambitions of a few men, who were on authority, were the driving force to partition and the blood of thousands is to some degree on their hands. The desire to get the two groups separated into their own geographic areas not yet agreed upon by all players was foisted by an excessively ambitious Admiral, a dying Nationalist, and two ill advised Prime Ministers. This problem was exacerbated by a tribal grouping that saw their dream of nationhood being shattered by the decision to separate the other two tribes. For years, there have been allegations that the boundary between India and West Pakistan, as it was at that time, had somehow been gerrymandered, in the last hours prior to partition, in favor of India by Lord Mountbatten and at the behest of Nehru. There is no doubt that this is correct and can be proven as some of the participants begin to speak out. How much impact this had on the future relationship between the two nations is a question yet to be resolved. Thus far it has been the basis for three wars between the countries and is still a bone of contention. Is it not somewhat understandable, however, to see how an English Admiral, with no real understanding of the sub-continent and its peoples, a Moslem Nationalist, who had never really lived amongst his people and did not speak their language, and an Hindu Indian Prime Minister, who was born in a state that was over ninety percent Moslem, could create such a muddle? *** The above abstract can aslo be viewed at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/Auchinleckandthepart.html Thanks. Kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sun Sep 21 19:29:37 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 19:29:37 +0000 Subject: RSyazRNga Valkacarin Message-ID: <161227032688.23782.3236987825948384128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for Jain versions of the famous Rishyashringa tale (besides the young version in Parishishtaparvan) Heiner From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sun Sep 21 19:36:09 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 19:36:09 +0000 Subject: Pali? Message-ID: <161227032690.23782.13061990055874393345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I am translating a story with wordforms appearing some curious, since they look like being Pali while the text is a Jain source: 1. tIya must be tIe (demonstr fem instr), 2. abhivAdaya could it be an Infinitiv with a absolutiv meaning? 3. the phrase abhivAd- appears only in this one story very often, nowhere else. Someone knows texts which are characterized by this phrase? 4. amhehim na tiNNo saddAvium "We could not let call (him)? (ex Rishyashringa tale) Thank you Heiner From warner at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Sep 22 02:08:00 1997 From: warner at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Warner Belanger) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 21:08:00 -0500 Subject: Prof. Emmerick's Address Message-ID: <161227032694.23782.15841153199311472212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am searching for Professor Ronald Emmerick's email or snail mail address. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Warner Belanger From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Sep 22 06:08:44 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 02:08:44 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227032696.23782.8682815628866743047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-19 14:13:36 EDT, Hrid at AOL.COM writes: << But what about early references specifically to the Sanskrit language? For that matter how old is the name "sanskrit"? Do any early texts, teachers etc talk specifically about the Sanskrit language as somehow ontologically or culturally privileged above other languages? >> Please refer to the following postings in Indology. Item # Date Time Recs Subject 006780 96/12/13 07:23 31 'saMskRta' 006788 96/12/13 19:46 49 Re: 'saMskRta' It was interesting to me that only PataJjali unambiguously calls the language Samskrta. Madhav Deshpande's Sanskrit and Prakrit has some information on this topic also. On the Tamil side, the first grammar, tolkAppiyam, uses the word 'centamiz', the correct Tamil. The attitude of ancient Tamil poets towards their language was similar but secular. Regards S. Palaniappan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Sep 22 07:39:19 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 08:39:19 +0100 Subject: Prof. Emmerick's Address In-Reply-To: <199709220208.VAA600698@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227032698.23782.11413754629669735260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, Warner Belanger wrote: > I am searching for Professor Ronald Emmerick's email or snail mail address. "Prof. Ronald E. Emmerick" Members of INDOLOGY can send the command review indology to the address listserv at liverpool.ac.uk and receive a list of the email addresses of all the other members. Currently that is just under 700 addresses of people with an interest in classical Indian studies. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Sep 22 15:20:59 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 09:20:59 -0600 Subject: Popular Religious Art Message-ID: <161227032706.23782.17021173254472483387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 9/22/97 Re: Popular Religious Art ***************************** Pl. see: O. P. Joshi, Gods of heaven, home of Gods: a study of popular prints. Jaipur, 1994, 387p. col. illus. Stephen Huyler, Painted prayers: women's art in village India, 1994 C. A. Breckenridge, Consuming modernity: public culture in a South Asian world, Univ. of Minnesota press, 1995 Joanne P. Waghorne (univ. of North Carolina) has been studying the modernisation of Temples in the colonial period for years. Along with fine photos of temples, vaahanas etc., by her husband. The modern paintings included in those papers. There was an exhibition on calender prints at some university in Canada. Done by Stephen Inglis, I think. I have the reference in some notebook. Vijaya Nagarajan (UC, Berkeley) has published a paper on kOlam paintings by Tamil women in an exhibition catalog of Museum of New Mexico. By the way, there is an excellent book on modern Indian painting. The price is a record by Indian standards for single volume (Rs. 4000/-) Tuli Neville, Indian contemporary painting. Mapin, 1997 (350 color photos) N. Ganesan From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Mon Sep 22 16:02:02 1997 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Anne Hardy) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 11:02:02 -0500 Subject: Indian religious art Message-ID: <161227032711.23782.17961896117150830816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would just like to express my great thanks to the many people who have responded to my query concerning popular Indian religious art. As several persons have expressed an interest, when I have had the opportunity to examine these materials, I will post a bibliography on the subject to Indology. Thanks, Kristen Hardy Student of Religion and Sanskrit, University of Manitoba e-mail:umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca From William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE Mon Sep 22 10:51:43 1997 From: William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE (William Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 11:51:43 +0100 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227032702.23782.10705372119675333569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members: I am looking for the address of Dr Thomas E. Wood on behalf of Prof. Claus Oetke. Does anyone on the list have a mailing or E-mail address. Thanks W.Smith From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Sep 22 12:42:31 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 13:42:31 +0100 Subject: seeking advice for contacts with some scholars (fwd) Message-ID: <161227032703.23782.14637014523228585693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:53:46 +0530 From: Anil Gupta To: "d.wujastyk" Subject: seeking advice for contacts with some scholars is it possible to get in touch with some cholars interested in research on sanskrit literature I am interested in taking advice from some colelagues about the topic of my thesis problem \I have interest in writers who may have talked about plants, nature or woemn issues in sanskrit literature. I hope you will pass my request to some relevant colleague Thanks very much Sadhana Gupta c/o Prof Anil K Gupta Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad 380015 http://csf.colorado.edu/sristi anilkgupta at hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Sep 22 12:44:46 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 13:44:46 +0100 Subject: AW: Help Wanted Message-ID: <161227032705.23782.4557999908209388429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 19:23:30 UT From: Rolf Heinrich Koch To: "Dominik Wujastyk (at UCL)" Subject: AW: Help Wanted If anyone wants: I wrote a very small VisualBasic Programm: Anywhere in Windows you just call the Macro and in some seconds the text is converted to Devanagari (for instant in Winword) Heiner -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet am: Samstag, 20. September 1997 11:25 An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Betreff: Re: Help Wanted On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Rahul Arora wrote: > we are looking for a way so that we can convert this romanised english > book to devanagari font without using the keyboard. if anyone knows > anything about it please help us out. thanks This is easily done using TeX or LaTeX together with the Devanagari font and pre-processor by Charles Wikner. See the INDOLOGY file archives (via http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html) and the Comprehensive TeX Archive Network (CTAN) at ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk under tex-archive/languages All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From tjun at AA.TUFS.AC.JP Mon Sep 22 07:40:19 1997 From: tjun at AA.TUFS.AC.JP (Takashima Jun) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 16:40:19 +0900 Subject: TeX and Babel. Message-ID: <161227032700.23782.13421643096503003810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:22 97/09/21 +0100, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The person is Jun Takashima, who also developed the Kannada metafont and > preprocessor. Jun is a member of this list, so he may be able to let us > know how things have progressed. I hope I will add to my home page my recent extension to Babel both on Nagari and transliteration in a month or too. I have no time to write a manual. So please wait. Takashima Jun(tjun at aa.tufs.ac.jp) Institute for the Study of Languages and Cultures of Asia and Africa Tokyo University of Foreign Studies From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Mon Sep 22 16:12:57 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 17:12:57 +0100 Subject: RSyazRNga Valkacarin Message-ID: <161227032709.23782.1336391046846227406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: >I am looking for Jain versions of the famous Rishyashringa tale (besides the >young version in Parishishtaparvan) >Heiner Older than the version of the Parishishtaparvan is the story of ValkalacIrin in the VasudevahiNDi, ed. Caturvijaya/Punyavijaya, Bhavnagar, 1930, p. 17-20. Georg v. Simson From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 24 17:07:19 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 10:07:19 -0700 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced Message-ID: <161227032721.23782.11664070980633657659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the nitpick, but I notice some very interesting( and inconsistent) logic being used here.... > >Hindi PC DOS announced > To commemorate the Official Language Day, TATA IBM today announced the availability of the Hindi PC DOS in India. PC DOS is the first and only operating system in Hindi. This landmark effort by IBM is in response tothe commitment of the Government of India to promote the Hindi language. > > In a country where only 5% of the population speaks English, language ithe biggest barrier to computer literacy. The Tata IBM initiative willenable the Hindi speaking population of 360 million to have access ------- > I don't think I"m terribly off the mark when I say that the majority i.e. atleast 85% those who understand English can also read and write it....while 360 million can understand Hindi, what is the proportion of the people who can read and write Hindi?( and can thereby use whatever software is available in Hindi..) Also, pls note that learning a computer language is not all that difficult, I've seen that is infinitely easier for people to learn how to write code than learning to write/speak grammatical English..one look at the body-shopping industry in the USA and you would know exactly what I mean...so what is all this talk about not knowing English being an impediment for not being able to programme?..if people can watch a James Bond movie and understand it, I suppose they know enough English to write code..... As for the world of programming being made open to 360 million people, in a place where many of these 360 million people don't get 2 square meals a day, does IBM really think that this would lead to a spate of PCs and other IBM stuff being bought?:-)..or do they think that programming skills would help people locate places where food is available, as in the joke about Communist Russia( beg to be forgiven by all Russians and Communists on the net for this)... Scene: Russian Countryside, sometime in the mid 1980s..a party propaganda official meets a Russian babushka( grandmother)near Moscow who complains to him about the lack of food grains since the crops have failed... Party official( call him "Comrade Talltaleov")to the Babushka: "Do you realise, old woman! That in the year 2010, we will be so advanced that each comrade in the U.S.S.R will own his/her own helicopter?" Old woman: "What would I do with that? I want bread, not helicopters" Talltaleov: "Shut up and listen to me! Do you realise that in the year 2010, we will be so advanced that each house in each and every village of Russia will have a phone and that these phones will have efficient inter-city dialing service?" Old woman "What would I do with a phone! I want food, not a phone" Talletaleov( in a voice full of anger and disgust) "Stupid woman! Don't you get it...whenever there is a shortage of food grains in Moscow, you can telephone your friends in Leningrad,Kharkov, Novosobirsk immideatly, find out where food grains are available, and go there in your helicopter and bring home what you need to...Can you give me a better way to solve the food-shortage problem, you old idiot?":-),:-).. this was meant as a joke, but IBM and the GOI seem all ready to implement this in India...... I am also curious to know as to what kind of *grammar* would be used by software which would be developed in Hindi. A statment like RUN( at the end of a program) may make sense to an English speaker, but would the corresponding "dauDO" make sense to a Hindiwallah?( or for that matter in any other Indian language)...other choices in Hindi would be "Shuru karo"( start), "karo"(do) etc..not a whole lot better than "dauDO".... >Note this is just note the kind of program that would apper >computers in their language. This will create a critical mass of computer literate people who will contribute to the growth of India's software developer population. Given the fact that most of the software industry is located in Bangalore, wouldn't it be good idea to get things going in Kannada?The critical mass, I'm sure can be achieve faster then, I'd think....or is this the GOIs effort to bring to fructification Bharatiyars song wherein we find "Malayalam girls singing Telugu songs" and by analogy "Kannada speakers programming in Hindi":-) > >September 14th is India's " Official Language Day." It was initiated by Dr. Rajendra Prasad, the first President of India in 1950, as a commitmentof the Government of India to promote Hindi as the Official Language. TheOfficial Language Act of 1949, which makes the use of Hindi in Central Government Offices mandatory all across the country also resulted from this commitment. > It was *initiated*( in the most literal sense) by Rajendra Prasad....AFAIK, the bill for introducing Hindi as the national language was introduced by Gopalaswamy Iyengar and was voted upon....I believe that the votes were equally split( for and against Hindi) and so the then president Rajendra Prasad used his powers as president to incorporate this into the constitution( this phrase is literally correct, may not be technically right in terms of legalspeak)....Rajendra Prasad himself was a Hindi scholar and this may have been the driving force for his action, not *exactly* the *peoples will*..... Pls note that I am not a great supporter of English being the national language( on the ground that it is not the native language,)but as S.Palaniappan has pointed out, by the same token Hindi is not the native language of many people; so what do those poor souls do? Getting non-Hindi speakers to choose between programming/any thing else in English or Hindi is like getting a person to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Sep 24 14:31:17 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 10:31:17 -0400 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced Message-ID: <161227032717.23782.2184838476984518757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-24 06:43:19 EDT, grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE quotes Rob Russell as saying: << September 14th is India's " Official Language Day." It was initiated by Dr. Rajendra Prasad, the first President of India in 1950, as a commitment of the Government of India to promote Hindi as the Official Language. The Official Language Act of 1949, which makes the use of Hindi in Central Government Offices mandatory all across the country also resulted from this commitment. Cheers Rob. -- Robert Russell IBM Global Services Internet and Managed Networks rrussell at ibm.net, rob at apic.net >> This message shows Mr. Robert Russell's apalling ignorance and insensitivity towards the feelings of non-Hindi speakers. Adding insult to injury is his cheerleading for the linguistic arrogance of Hindi-nationalistic policy-makers in Indian Government. As far as I am concerned, the Official Language Day is a day in infamy. I welcome any person's ability to use the computer through his/her own language. I also sympathize with the Hindi speakers who do not like the elitistic value system of those Indians who look down on Indian languages. But I cannot support the linguistic domination by one language to be replaced by another. While I welcome any language's ability to enlarge its sphere of influence through what it has to offer in terms access to literature, culture or market, I absolutely abhor any government's efforts to impose/prefer one language over the speakers of another language. If there is a market for Hindi PC DOS, by all means let anybody develop it. But I hate a government-created market for one language which other languages cannot match. Further, now one can expect a policy which will demand that all non-Hindi speakers in Central Government will have to learn Hindi DOS. Otherwise, their professional growth will be affected. The treatment of Prof. William Harman by the representatives of Indian Government can be seen from the letter which was posted by Robert Zydenbos in this list on April 9, 1997. I have shown it below. I hope this will enlighten the likes of Mr. Russell to the linguistic realities faced by the non-Hindi speakers of India. Usually Indian bureaucrats treat dark-skinned Indians like dirt while they treat light-skinned foreigners with obsequiousness. If an American is treated like this by the embassy, can one imagine the treatment of non-Hindi speakers by the Hindi-speaking officials of the Indian Government? Regards S. Palaniappan < Subject: Your Letter from Embassy of India (March 27, 1997) Honorable Siv S. Mukherjee Embassy of India 2107 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20008 Phone (202) 939-7041 Fax (202) 462-7276 I have received your letter describing the Indian Government's intention to bring out a Directory of Scholars of Hindi living abroad to commemorate India's 50th anniversary of independence. You describe your intentions to produce a directory with personal biographies, and photographs, as well as published works and awards and honors. You also indicate that if my interest is not in Hindi, you are not interested in including me in the directory. The message seems to me to be rather clear, and quite damaging to the notion that India is a nation concerned for the united cooperation of India's linguistic, cultural, and literary groups. I am a scholar of Tamil, and I regret that you have decided that the Tamil language, culture, and people are irrelevant or, at best, secondary to India's national celebration of independence. I would like to remind you that Tamilnadu has a long and remarkable history in terms of literary and religious contributions to national life in India. India is a great nation, but I would hate to see it diminished by parochial notions such as those claiming that any one linguistic, racial, geographic, or religious group carries the banner for the entire nation. I send this letter to academics on several lists concerned with the study of India. I encourage them not to participate in the project unless the project is enlarged to include all languages of India. Respectfully, William P. Harman Associate Professor of Religion DePauw University>> From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Sep 24 15:19:43 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 11:19:43 -0400 Subject: Correction to "Re: Hindi PC DOS announced" Message-ID: <161227032719.23782.2336842304203634551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The first sentence in my last posting should read " This message shows Mr. Robert Russell's appalling ignorance and insensitivity.. ". Sorry for the typo. Regards S. Palaniappan From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Sep 24 10:40:25 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 12:40:25 +0200 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced Message-ID: <161227032714.23782.7863941707065068462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following forwarded message may be of interest: Hindi PC DOS announced ************************************************************************** From: Rob Russell New Delhi, September 15, 1997 To commemorate the Official Language Day, TATA IBM today announced the availability of the Hindi PC DOS in India. PC DOS is the first and only operating system in Hindi. This landmark effort by IBM is in response to the commitment of the Government of India to promote the Hindi language. In a country where only 5% of the population speaks English, language is the biggest barrier to computer literacy. The Tata IBM initiative will enable the Hindi speaking population of 360 million to have access to computers in their language. This will create a critical mass of computer literate people who will contribute to the growth of India's software developer population. The computer programming profession, today a career choice only of an English speaking minority is now available to the immense Hindi speaking population. IBM's Education Services in India and IIS Infotech today announced that they would provide programming training in Hindi as a new course through their various training centers across the country. Mr. Ravi Marwaha, Managing Director & CEO, TATA IBM says, "IBM is committed to India's information technology development where local language computing is the key issue. We are working closely with third party developers for comprehensive application software development and with hardware vendors for bundling the Hindi PC DOS with new and existing machines. We want to see the benefits of computerization trickle down to the masses." Mr. Pawan Kumar, President , IBM Global Services India says, "Today, the penetration of computers in India is just one per 1000 population. There is a definite need to increase this ratio. The availability of Hindi PC DOS will increase the usage of computers, both in the office and at home. This will contribute significantly towards meeting the Government's objective of increasing the penetration ten times." According to Mr. Mike Colleary, Director, IBM Emerging Markets (Software), Asia Pacific, "India is a major strategic market and one of IBM Software's fastest growing opportunities. The Hindi PC DOS launch shows IBM's committment growing opportunity. The Hindi PC DOS launch shows IBM's commitment to this to this important emerging country. This tremendous area of opportunity is fueled by the second largest software developer population in the world." IBM has made a conscious decision to port Hindi PC DOS on hardware starting from a PC 386. By doing so, Hindi PC DOS reduces the cost of computing considerably and allows our customers to use their existing machines. This will also ensure the availability of a computer at a low cost to our Hindi literate population. This gives the Hindi PC DOS enabled machines immense marketing potential and usefulness in the country. Work on application software by individual developers is going on at full steam with IBM's support and encouragement. Office productive packages, database management, spreadsheets and customised user packages will be the first to be developed. It supports all internal and external commands, data and messages in Hindi. September 14th is India's " Official Language Day." It was initiated by Dr. Rajendra Prasad, the first President of India in 1950, as a commitment of the Government of India to promote Hindi as the Official Language. The Official Language Act of 1949, which makes the use of Hindi in Central Government Offices mandatory all across the country also resulted from this commitment. Cheers Rob. -- Robert Russell IBM Global Services Internet and Managed Networks rrussell at ibm.net, rob at apic.net From amccord at IBM.NET Wed Sep 24 18:10:08 1997 From: amccord at IBM.NET (amccord) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 14:10:08 -0400 Subject: Address Needed for Grif Chausee Message-ID: <161227032723.23782.7195148243188621159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone has an address or e-mail address for Griffith Chausee, a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin and an editor of the Annual of Urdu Studies please let me know. Thank you, Andy McCord amccord at ibm.net From Jyotishi at AOL.COM Wed Sep 24 20:56:31 1997 From: Jyotishi at AOL.COM (Member of INDOLOGY (Jyotishi)) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 16:56:31 -0400 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced Message-ID: <161227032726.23782.11498972014727109356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Rob Russell > New Delhi, September 15, 1997 > To commemorate the Official Language Day, TATA IBM today announced the > availability of the Hindi PC DOS in India. . . . > In a country where only 5% of the population speaks English, language is > the biggest barrier to computer literacy. The Tata IBM initiative will > enable the Hindi speaking population of 360 million to have access to > computers in their language. . . . Hindi kee jai hoe! Jyotishi http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Thu Sep 25 03:25:31 1997 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 19:25:31 -0800 Subject: Sa.msk.rta as language name Message-ID: <161227032734.23782.8217640709843231605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the message dated 97-09-19 14:13:36 EDT, Hrid at AOL.COM asked about early references specifically to the Sanskrit language. Responding to this, S. Palaniappan drew attention to the following postings in Indology. Item # Date Time Recs Subject 006780 96/12/13 07:23 31 'saMskRta' 006788 96/12/13 19:46 49 Re: 'saMskRta' I do not recall what these postings said and have not had time to retrieve them from the Archive. However, it may be useful to mention that I have discussed the matter, at least to some extent, in my article "The Early History of Sanskrit as Supreme Language," published in _Ideology and Status of Sanskrit_ edited by Jan Houben (Brill, 1996). See fn 18 in particular. It is possible to take the phrase ... vaaca.m ... sa.msk.rtaam occurring in the Sundara-kaa.n.da of Vaalmiiki's Raamaaya.na as a reference to Sanskrit as language. If one accepts this interpretation, if one includes the Sundara-kaa.n.da in the oldest parts of the Raamaaya.na, and if one accepts "for the composition of the oldest parts of the surviving" Raamaaya.na "a date no later than the middle of the sixth century B.C." (Robert P.Goldman in his excellent "Introduction" to his translation of the Baala-kaa.n.da, p. 22), then one could say that Sa.msk.rta as a language name is at least as old as the sixth century B.C. S. Palaniappan remarks: >It was interesting to me that only PataJjali unambiguously calls the language Samskrta.< I do not think this is accurate. Some scholars might have derived this implication from Pata;njali's phrase sa.msk.rtya sa.msk.rtya padaani uts.rjyante, but, as far as I could check, there is no occurrence in Pata;njali's Mahaa-bhaa.sya in which sa.msk.rta unambiguously stands for a specific language. From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Sep 25 06:15:58 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 23:15:58 -0700 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970925052255.11772f78@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227032738.23782.5261847955156859326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding this Hindi PC/DOS; does anyone know whether it will be made available outside of India? I suppose all it takes is a matter of ordering it from India. Are there any known *legal* software distributors in India that cater to foreign customers? Thanks. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From hzhao at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Sep 25 03:56:25 1997 From: hzhao at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Haiquan Zhao) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 23:56:25 -0400 Subject: Shaka and Samvat Era Message-ID: <161227032736.23782.7064464087654624002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > > I heard that the Shaka Era began in 78 CE, and that one converts from > > > Shaka Era to CE by adding 78 or 79, depending on the month. But this > > > will make, say July 78 CE, fall in year 0 of Shaka Era. Is this the > > > case? > > Yes, technically. > Let me put my questions more clear. If Shaka Era starts in 78CE due to > some special event in that year, then why should that year be year 0 > rather than year 1? We were immediately in 1CE after the supposed birth date > of Jesus Christ. > > > > > And how to convert between Samvat Era and CE and BCE? > > Samvat begins 57 years before Christ, so you > > would subtract 57 years from a Samvat date to arrive at the B/CE date; > > I don't know what's the right way to compute, but I don't think it can > be same way for both CE date and BCE date, since 1 CE immediately follows > 1 BCE(i.e. -1 CE) and we miss 0 CE there. And my above question also > applies to Samvat Era. > > Chuck Zhao > From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 24 23:55:17 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 00:55:17 +0100 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced Message-ID: <161227032728.23782.10776450716952786971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I welcome the introduction of Hindi PC DOS. This shows that the international computer industry recognizes the market potential in India and is trying to cater to the indian public. sarma. From aditya at SMART1.NET Thu Sep 25 01:07:49 1997 From: aditya at SMART1.NET (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 01:07:49 +0000 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970925052255.11772f78@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227032730.23782.88798304996061007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA has on Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:55:17 +0100 written as follows: >I welcome the introduction of Hindi PC DOS. This shows that the >international computer industry recognizes the market potential in India >and is trying to cater to the indian public. I hate to disappoint you but there would no market for Hindi Dos. OTOH if they can include a word processor with Devnagri fonts, that could have a market. W95 already has so many fonts in other scripts like Chinese, Japanese and Arabic but not in Devnagri. -- Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra e-mail:a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: A celebrity is a person who is known for well-knownness. From aditya at SMART1.NET Thu Sep 25 01:27:03 1997 From: aditya at SMART1.NET (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 01:27:03 +0000 Subject: Downloading diacritic Roman fonts for Indian Languages In-Reply-To: <970917104231_-731882084@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032732.23782.3883690392593706801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan has on Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:44:25 -0400 written as follows: >For quite sometime, I have been trying to download the Roman diacritic fonts >(CSX or Norman) from the the following site >ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts >I have not been successful. When I download the fonts like tm-csx.zip and >open it, the computer (PC) tries to treat it as a data file of an accounting >software I have (Bestware) and gives up. > >Does anybody else know/have these or other similar fonts which I can easily >download and install? I would appreciate installation instructions also. I have downloaded this file and did not have any problem in installing it. You need some program that can uncompress the zip file such as PKZIP or Winzip. After you have uncompressed the file you can install the ttf file normally depending on whether you are using w3.1 or w95. If you need more help, contact me by email. -- Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra e-mail:a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: A good man gone wrong is usually a bad man found out. From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Sep 25 06:26:21 1997 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 07:26:21 +0100 Subject: Sa.msk.rta as language name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032740.23782.18193235152663542024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Aklujkar wrote: > ... > > It is possible to take the phrase ... vaaca.m ... sa.msk.rtaam occurring > in the Sundara-kaa.n.da of Vaalmiiki's Raamaaya.na as a reference to > Sanskrit as language. If one accepts this interpretation, if one includes > the Sundara-kaa.n.da in the oldest parts of the Raamaaya.na, and if one > accepts "for the composition of the oldest parts of the surviving" > Raamaaya.na "a date no later than the middle of the sixth century B.C." > (Robert P.Goldman in his excellent "Introduction" to his translation of the > Baala-kaa.n.da, p. 22), then one could say that Sa.msk.rta as a language > name is at least as old as the sixth century B.C. Yes, but I don't think many scholars *do* accept Goldman's dating. I certainly don't; when I reviewed the Balakanda volume I commented that it was difficult to concur with a chronology that gives the Ramayana a sporting chance of predating the Satapatha Brahmana. Of course early Indian textual chronology is hopelessly vague in absolute terms, but the broad relative chronology is reasonably clear; the only way to accept Goldman's date would be to push the whole lot back by several centuries (which is not something Goldman proposes, as far as I recall). The reference (R 5.28.17-18) is nonetheless an interesting one: thanks for drawing attention to it. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Thu Sep 25 12:51:18 1997 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 08:51:18 -0400 Subject: Qe: gandhavattvavat In-Reply-To: <199708290800.EAA24328@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227032744.23782.2105258247704050545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some time ago (29 August), Jeson Woo inquired: > >In order to explicate that existence (sattva) is asAdhAraNAnaikAntika >hetu, VAcaspatimizra gives 'gandhavattva' as an example in his >TAtparyaTIkA (NyAyadarzanam, ed. T. Nyaya-Tarkatirtha,1985: 841.9).... > >It seems that the 'gandhavattva' is well-known example to both sides of >debaters. So far, however, I have not succeeded in identifying the source >of the example. Within a few days Horst Lasic identified a source, and I contributed a comment. Today I would like to give further evidence that the example was known, and how it was understood. jayantaH uses the example at nyAyamaJjarI (ed. Suryanarayana Sukla) 2.26.5-6: arthakriyAsamarthasya tvaduktaM sattvamastu vA | tadapi vyAptiZUnyatvAnna heturgandhavattvavat || cakradharaH explains this (nyAyamaJjarIgranthibhaGgaH 192.18-20): *na heturgandhavattvavat* | yathA gandhavattvaM nityatvenityatve vA na hetuH tena sahA[nya]trAdRSTeH evaM sarvasya sAdhyatvAt sattvasya kZaNikatvena sahAnyatrAdRSTiH | Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From c722773 at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Thu Sep 25 15:21:22 1997 From: c722773 at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU (Rahul Arora) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 10:21:22 -0500 Subject: Transliteration Message-ID: <161227032746.23782.11851649934726316874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The book i am working on has been Transliterated from Sanskrit to Romanised English (ie Devanagari in Roman script with diacritcs). We have done this using the Indic Translit of Ecological Linguistics of Washington DC. We want to convert this to Devanagari font of Word. I am not sure whether softwares like ITRANS shall work or not as the format of my files is different from that used by Itrans. Please suggest ways to do the conversion. Thanks Rahul From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Sep 25 15:39:26 1997 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 16:39:26 +0100 Subject: Transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032748.23782.9750928592030120492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Rahul Arora wrote: > The book i am working on has been Transliterated from Sanskrit to > Romanised English (ie Devanagari in Roman script with diacritcs). > We have done this using the Indic Translit of Ecological Linguistics of > Washington DC. We want to convert this to Devanagari font of Word. > I am not sure whether softwares like ITRANS shall work or not as the > format of my files is different from that used by Itrans. Please suggest > ways to do the conversion. > Thanks > Rahul Nightmare. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be *very* difficult: writing the conversion program would require a skilled programmer with a good knowledge of Devanagari, and would take perhaps a month of full-time work. If you insist on using Word (or any other word-processor), rather than following the suggestions that were made previously that TeX would be the best route, you had better start all over again from the beginning. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From sjohar at HKUCC.HKU.HK Thu Sep 25 09:51:46 1997 From: sjohar at HKUCC.HKU.HK (Sugandha Johar) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:51:46 +0800 Subject: Philology Message-ID: <161227032742.23782.5643414083661905621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I hope some of the Sanskrit scholars on this list will be able to help me. I am not a sanskritist, and as such was intrigued by the picture put forth by N.S.Rajaram in his book "The politics of history". Has anyone read this book. What is the opinion about the scholarly rigour of the author of this book, or rather the book itself Sugandha -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 2657 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Thu Sep 25 17:16:53 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 19:16:53 +0200 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced Message-ID: <161227032750.23782.12406400576923200211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello everybody, as I'm the one who distributed the article I should forward this message of Mr. Russell who's not a member of this list. I also allowed myself to forward the mails from Indology concerning Hindi-PC-DOS to him. Yours Tobias At 08:57 25.09.1997 -0400, rrussell at ibm.net wrote: >Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 97-09-24 06:43:19 EDT, grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE quotes Rob >> Russell as saying > >Hello and pardon me for making a correction. > >What was presented were not my words. > >Furthermore: > >> This message shows Mr. Robert Russell's apalling ignorance and insensitivity >> towards the feelings of non-Hindi speakers. Adding insult to injury is his >> cheerleading for the linguistic arrogance of Hindi-nationalistic >> policy-makers in Indian Government. As far as I am concerned, the Official >> Language Day is a day in infamy. > > >Appalling misunderstanding, I'm afraid, as the basic premise is wrong. >They were *not* my words. My words were along the lines of "here is a >press release that may interest AIM mailing list readers". > >Care should be taken with all news services, including moderated lists, >as words are taken out of context and may be edited! A check should be >made with the source, before accusations and assumptions are passed >along. I am appalled that something I simply presented for discussion >can so easily be misconstrued, although I appreciate why that occurred. > >I repeat, it was a press release and I was passing it along as a matter >of interest. Do not invest in it moral judgements on my part! > >Regards > >Robert Russell. > >rrussell at ibm.net, rob at apic.net From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 26 04:11:18 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 00:11:18 -0400 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032752.23782.11799652325358133481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have seen two explanations for the name of the musical note 'SaDja'. According to one, 'SaDja' means 'the note born as the sixth'. The other explanation is it means 'the note which gives birth to six'. Can anybody give the linguistically correct explanation? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 26 04:42:34 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 00:42:34 -0400 Subject: Downloading diacritic Roman fonts for Indian Languages Message-ID: <161227032756.23782.11337104811335033514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for all those who gave some tips in helping to install the Times-CSX fonts. For the benefit of anybody else who may engage in a similar effort, let me say what I have learnt. I have Windows 95, AOL with Internet Explorer browser, and MS Word. In this configuration, downloading the fonts through 'FTP' is the way to go. After it is downloaded, and unzipped, one has to map the keys to the diacritic font characters. This is done by first selecting the font from within the Word window and then using the Insert Symbol menu. The symbol menu will not show the Times-CSX font name. It will just say '(normal font)'. Then one has to assign one's favorite key combinations as shortkeys. After I was able to successfully inspect the fonts, I found that there was no character for Tamil 'R' which is different from the vocalic R of Sanskrit. So, I decided to use the same approach to the TimesIndian font, George Hart had sent me long back, but I had no idea how to install it in a PC. (Before that I had used the TimesIndian font for Mac,which did not have all these complications. If I remember right, Hart said that he was not sure if the PC font would work without somebody writing printer drivers for it.) To my delight, I found that the approach I learnt for Times-CSX worked fine for TimesIndian. As a result, I now have a working TimesIndian font which includes Tamil 'R'. Regards S. Palaniappan From ebashir at UMICH.EDU Fri Sep 26 11:49:26 1997 From: ebashir at UMICH.EDU (E. Bashir) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 07:49:26 -0400 Subject: ciroTaa Message-ID: <161227032759.23782.10849096652993183023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have encountered this word in a children's story (written in Urdu in Lahore in the 1960's). From the context, it means 'male sparrow', but I have not been able to locate it in any Urdu or Hindi dictionary that I have looked at. Can anyone tell me the dialect provenance of this word. (note that r is not retroflex.) Thanks E. Bashir Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 3070 Frieze Bldg. The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Department Office Phone: (313) 764-8286 Personal Office Phone: (313) 764-0214 Fax: (313) 647-0157 Note: Area code changes to 734 effective 12/13/97 From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Fri Sep 26 13:48:06 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 09:48:06 -0400 Subject: ciroTaa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032761.23782.8890965869472571438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, E. Bashir wrote: > I have encountered this word in a children's story (written in Urdu in > Lahore in the 1960's). From the context, it means 'male sparrow', but I > have not been able to locate it in any Urdu or Hindi dictionary that I > have looked at. Can anyone tell me the dialect provenance of this word. > (note that r is not retroflex.) Thanks see, _A Practical Hindi-English Dictionary_ (eds. Chaturvedi & Tiwari), ciraunt.A (or) ciraut.A = nm. a young male sparrow From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 26 17:42:14 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 10:42:14 -0700 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032763.23782.5697703276109170183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Palaniappan writes: >I have seen two explanations for the name of the musical note >'SaDja'.According to one, 'SaDja' means 'the note born as the sixth'. The otherexplanation is it means 'the note which gives birth to six'. Can anybody givethe linguistically correct explanation? Thanks in advance. > I had the same doubt some time ago....A perusal of V.S.Aptes Sanskrit-English dictionary told me the following: Shadja:- the fourth( or first according to some) of the seven primary notes of the Indian gamut;so called because it is derived from the six organs; nAsAm. kaNThamurastAlu jihvAm. datAnzcha(?) samspr~zan.h| shaDbhya: sa~njAyatE iti yasmAttasmAt.h Zadja iti smrta:|| I think that the use of shaDbhya: sa~njAyatE( from the sixth , {it} is born) would make it close to your "note born as the sixth". The reason why I put a question mark after "datAnzcha" is because I think it should be "dantAnzcha" i.e. to the teeth,pls feel free to make appropriate suggestions... As far as I can tell,"ShaDja-first note" here is the prevalent way in which music is taught now( and possibly then), but what is this "fourth note" thing? In this case, I think "panCama" would be the base note...i.e. panCama-1,dhaivata-2,niShAda-3,ShaDja-4...was there a time/reason when panCama was the base note? I know that there are rAgas in Carnatic music where all the notes are between the mandara sthAyi panCamam and the madhya sthAyi panCamam- "navarOj" is a good example of this, I think- this is atleast the impression I got after listening to deekshitars "hastivadanAya" and a rendering of bhadrACala rAmadas's "nee samkalpamu eTuvaNtidO ghana", but then is navarOj an ancient rAga? I think it is of more recent origin....So, can anybody please tell me as to what is being refered to when he says "SaDja is the fourth note"? IT is also supposed to resemble( according to Apte) the note of peacocks i.e. nArada is quoted here as saying: "ShaDjam rauti mayUrastu" ...not sure if this means that this was derived from the note of the peacock.... I have a question for the music gurus here : Is there a unified theory of the derivation of all the notes- some seem to take their name from an animal with a similar calling note i.e. riShabha from v.rShabha( bull) and others seem to take it from their position in the ascending order i.e. panCamam...can somebody please post all the correct derivations of the notes? Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kvram at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 26 18:57:12 1997 From: kvram at HOTMAIL.COM (Kowshika Ramaprasad) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 11:57:12 -0700 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032765.23782.1507160826462057124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >S.Palaniappan writes: >>I have seen two explanations for the name of the musical note >>'SaDja'.According to one, 'SaDja' means 'the note born as the sixth'. >The otherexplanation is it means 'the note which gives birth to six'. >Can anybody givethe linguistically correct explanation? Thanks in >advance. >> > > > >As far as I can tell,"ShaDja-first note" here is the prevalent way in >which music is taught now( and possibly then), but what is this "fourth >note" thing? In this case, I think "panCama" would be the base >note...i.e. panCama-1,dhaivata-2,niShAda-3,ShaDja-4...was there a >time/reason when panCama was the base note? I know that there are rAgas >in Carnatic music where all the notes are between the mandara sthAyi >panCamam and the madhya sthAyi panCamam- "navarOj" is a good example of >this, I think- this is atleast the impression I got after listening to >deekshitars "hastivadanAya" and a rendering of bhadrACala rAmadas's "nee >samkalpamu eTuvaNtidO ghana", but then is navarOj an ancient rAga? I >think it is of more recent origin... Yes, navarOj spans between mandra sthAyi panchama to madhya sthAyi panchama. I have some notes about the history of this rAga , whicjh I will post in a da day or two. >.So, can anybody please tell me as >to what is being refered to when he says "SaDja is the fourth note"? > >IT is also supposed to resemble( according to Apte) the note of peacocks >i.e. nArada is quoted here as saying: "ShaDjam rauti mayUrastu" ...not >sure if this means that this was derived from the note of the >peacock.... The amara kOs'a goes like "nishAdarshbha gAndhAra shadja madhyama dhivatAh panchamashEtyamI sapta tantrI kaNThOttitAh svarAh " In the order of mentioning Shadja comes fourth, but I do not know if it is of any consequence. >I have a question for the music gurus here : Is there a unified theory >of the derivation of all the notes- some seem to take their name from >an animal with a similar calling note i.e. riShabha from v.rShabha( >bull) and others seem to take it from their position in the ascending >order i.e. panCamam...can somebody please post all the correct >derivations of the notes? The few pAdas that follow the above mentioned shlOka are shadjam mayUrO vadati gAvO rishabha bhAshiNah ajA vikantu gAndhAram krounchah kvanati (?) madhyamam pushpa sAdhAranE kAlE pikah kUjati panchamam dhaivatama hasato vAji nishAda bruhmatE(?) gajah .... These assign shadja to peacock, rishabha to bull, gAndhAra to sheep, madhyama to kroucha pakshi, panchama to koel, dhaivata to horse and nishAda to elephant. These assignments have been probably quoted from Bharata's nATya shAstra. >Regards, >Krishna Ramaprasad K V ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Fri Sep 26 20:53:26 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 13:53:26 -0700 Subject: Dasanami Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032773.23782.13526564350548358206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Chris Austin wrote: > Would anyone know of any works published on the asramas of the Dasanami > Order? I was surprised to find no substantial material on this matter in > the Indoogy Archives. Thanks once again for replying either to the list or > myself or to Dr. T.S. Rukmani (rukmani at alcor.concordia.ca). Yes, there is not much published literature on the dasanami orders. In his English translation of the Madhaviya Sankaravijaya, Swami Tapasyananda (of Ramakrishna Mission, Madras) draws attention to the unwarranted neglect of the dasanami traditions in evaluating the legends associated with Sankaracarya. There is a short account titled "The living advaita tradition" at the URL , which you can link to from the Indology homepage itself. I suppose the following is a comprehensive list of publications. 1. Sir Jadunath Sarkar, A history of Dasnami Naga Sanyasis, Mahanirvani, Allahabad, 1946 LC Call No.: not available 2. G. S. Ghurye (with L. N. Chapekar), Indian Sadhus, Popular Prakashan, Bombay, 1st ed., 1953, 2nd ed., 1964. LC Call No.: Microfilm BUL-ENG-111 (B) 3. Haripada Chakraborti, Asceticism in ancient India in Brahmanical, Buddhist, Jaina, and Ajivika societies, from the earliest times to the period of Sankaracharya, Punthi Pustak, Calcutta, 1973. LC Call No.: BL2015.A8 C47 4. Swami Sadananda Giri, Society and sannyasin : a history of the Dasnami sannyasins, Kriyayoga Asrama, Rishikesh, 1976. LC Call No.: BL1245.D27 S2 5. Yoshitsugu Sawai, The faith of ascetics and lay smartas: a study of the Sankaran tradition of Srngeri, Sammlung de Nobili, Instituet fuer Indologie der Universitaet Wien (Institute of Indology, University of Vienna), 1992. LC Call No.: acquisition in progress (as of September 9, 1997) 6. William Cenkner, A tradition of teachers: Sankara and The Jagadgurus Today, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1983. LC Call No.: B133.S5 C44 1983 7. A Sacred Thread, edited by Raymond B. Williams, Anima Publications, Chambersburg, PA, 1992. LC Call No.: BL1151.5 .S33 1992 Items no 1 and 4 are about the dasanamis in general, while 2 and 3 are not restricted to dasanamis. Sawai (no. 5) concentrates only on the Sringeri matha, and item 7 has two articles by Glenn Yocum and William Cenkner, on the Sringeri and Kanchi mathas. For whatever it is worth, I have many reservations about Cenkner's work in item no. 6. For example, he attempts to present a unified picture of the currently famous monasteries, without paying any attention to their internal controversies. Even Sadananda Giri (no. 4), an insider in the dasanami order, does not gloss over them, and explicitly concedes that some things are controversial. Cenkner is also sloppy in his historical research, even with respect to contemporary issues. Thus, he says that the succession to the Sringeri title was legally challenged in this century. I am completely unaware of any such dispute. The successors to the Sringeri matha have typically been named years in advance. On the other hand, where there is a well-known legal dispute, Cenkner is completely silent about it. He only mentions Santananda Sarasvati as the head of the Joshimatha, and says nothing about the dispute between him and Svarupananda Sarasvati. The latter is currently the head of both Dvaraka matha and Joshimatha, both legally and in terms of acceptance by the other mathas. Moreover, by the time Cenkner's book was published, Santananda had formally stepped down, and handed over charge of his institution to one Vishnudevananda Sarasvati. Rumor has it that both Santananda and Vishnudevananda have the support of Mahesh Yogi of TM fame. Vidyasankar From c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA Fri Sep 26 19:28:55 1997 From: c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA (Chris Austin) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 15:28:55 -0400 Subject: Dasanami Order In-Reply-To: <199610081543.PAA00858@agora.stm.it> Message-ID: <161227032767.23782.7037936476256700883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone know of any works published on the asramas of the Dasanami Order? I was surprised to find no substantial material on this matter in the Indoogy Archives. Thanks once again for replying either to the list or myself or to Dr. T.S. Rukmani (rukmani at alcor.concordia.ca). Chris Austin Concordia University Department of Religion Montreal, Canada c_austi at alcor.concordia.ca From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP Fri Sep 26 06:57:44 1997 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 15:57:44 +0900 Subject: [Off topic Q] A reference of Levi-Strauss Message-ID: <161227032757.23782.2162595041136049073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, As my subject line says it, this is an off topic query for a reference of Levi-Strauss: if my memory serves me, I think I have read in some work of Levi-Strauss (probably in one volume of his "Mythologiques", perhaps in the introduction of "L'Homme nu"...??) a sentence in which he says something like: "The earth of the myths is round" ("La terre des mythes est ronde"). Could anyone of the list members be so kind as to give me the exact reference of this passage (in French edition, with the page reference) [a private email would be appreciated]. Thank you very much in advance! And I am sorry for disturbing the list with this off topic query. Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From A.Raman at MASSEY.AC.NZ Fri Sep 26 04:31:08 1997 From: A.Raman at MASSEY.AC.NZ (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 16:31:08 +1200 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' In-Reply-To: <970926001116_2031596787@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032754.23782.14591411692972244008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought that SaDja meant the noise made by a peacock. Perhaps there is some evidence for the Peacock being the sixth creature to come into existence. Or is this connected to the Peacock being Shanmuga's (six faced one) vehicle (vahanam)? - & From rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA Fri Sep 26 22:02:37 1997 From: rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA (D. Soneji) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 17:02:37 -0500 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032775.23782.2156908601762270043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kowshika Ramaprasad wrote: > The few pAdas that follow the above mentioned shlOka are > > shadjam mayUrO vadati gAvO rishabha bhAshiNah > ajA vikantu gAndhAram krounchah kvanati (?) madhyamam > pushpa sAdhAranE kAlE pikah kUjati panchamam > dhaivatama hasato vAji nishAda bruhmatE(?) gajah .... > > These assign shadja to peacock, rishabha to bull, gAndhAra > to sheep, madhyama to kroucha pakshi, panchama to koel, > dhaivata to horse and nishAda to elephant. > > These assignments have been probably quoted from > Bharata's nATya shAstra. > To my knowledge, these assignments are not from the Natyasastra. While the Natyasastra makes several references to the saptasvaras as a group (for example, chapter 28, sloka 19 - sadjasca rsabhascaiva gandharo madhyamastatha/ pancamo dhaivatascaiva nisadhah sapta ca svarah), it does not explain their etymological derivations, nor does it associate them with various animals. It does however, associate the svaras with rasas (for example, chapter 29, prose passage between slokas 16 and 17). Matanga's Brhaddesi, as mentioned in Kallinatha's commentary on Sangitaratnakara lists possible origins of the names of the saptasvaras. The comments on sadja are as follows (translation from Sangitaratnakara of Sarngadeva, ed. and trans. R.K. Shringy and Prem Lata Sharma): a) it is the precursor (lit. the progenitor) of the six other notes b) it is brought into being by six other notes, for, as an integrated part of the heptad (saptaka) it is manifested by the rest of the parts together. c) alternatively, it is produced by six organs of the body, viz. the nostrils, the throat, the palate, the breast, the tongue and the teeth. (commentary on Sangitaratnakara, Svaragatadhyaya (1), Prakarana 3, sloka 23) - Devesh Soneji University of Manitoba From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 27 01:39:39 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 18:39:39 -0700 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032781.23782.6002538646711229490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Devesh Soneji wrote: > >In a message dated 97-09-26 18:16:56 EDT, rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA writes: << The comments on sadja are as follows (translation from Sangitaratnakara of Sarngadeva, ed. and trans. R.K. Shringy and Prem Lata Sharma): a) it is the precursor (lit. the progenitor) of the six other notes b) it is brought into being by six other notes, for, as an integrated part of the heptad (saptaka) it is manifested by the rest of the parts together. c) alternatively, it is produced by six organs of the body, viz. the nostrils, the throat, the palate, the breast, the tongue and the teeth. (commentary on Sangitaratnakara, Svaragatadhyaya (1), Prakarana 3, sloka 23) >> S.Palaniappan says: >Thanks for this important reference. But we are still left with the problemwe started with. To me it seems the commentators had no logical basis forexplaining the word. I simply do not trust the explanations from this type ofcommentators. What we really need is a linguistic/grammatical explanationfrom Sanskrit linguists/grammarians. > >What are the rules that underlie the creation of words such as padmaja,girija, dvija, etc.? If these rules are applied to SaDja, what will be the logical meaning? >For instance, in the words, padmaja, dvija, etc. the result of birth is thenamed subject. Explanation (a) seems to imply that the results of the birthare some things other than the named subject. Does Sanskrit form words like this? Or is this a case of folk etymology? It is true that the most popular meaning of the ending "-ja:/jA" is :birth/to be born from....but the ending can take on other meanings including exotic ones like swift,victory etc. One of the lesser used meanings of this ending is :prepared from,made of....In this context, if we translate "ShaDja" as prepared from (six) organs, it would make logical sense i.e. note produced with the help of six organs which are listed by Prem Lata Sharma in part (c)....This is also said by Tyagaraja in his "Sobhillu saptasvara"( rAgA jaganmOhini) where he says in the anupallavi: "nAbhi hrd-kaNTHa rasana, nAsAdula entO"..."sobhillu sapta svara"(Pallavi) ( the first 5 words are Skt based are need no translation, nAsAdula is just the Teluguised version of "of the nAsAdi", entO is "a lot of") Sobhillu is I think, derived from Skt "ZObhA" sapta svara is from Skt >Explanation (b) is even more confusing. When is the earliest evidence for theconcept of 'saptaka' in Sanskrit? And what is the meaning of >SaDja being brought into existence by the other six notes? AFAIK, the word Saptaka is just a word for seven notes i.e. an octave /karnatic sthAyi...the meaning, I think that is being implied here( this is a long shot and could be the result of the same phenomenon , not the causative factor-It is possible for any note to take the place of the ShaDjam and allow for the generation of a new rAga i.e. isn't this the basis of graha bhEdam?; for example, if the Rishbham in the rAga mOhanam is made the ShaDjamam, then we get the rAga madhyamAvati....It is therefore possible that the authors had this in mind i.e. the ShaDja being generated from all the six notes one at a time..... > >Explanation (c) also does not make sense. For instance, if SaDja is producedfrom the above-mentioned six places, in how many places are >the other notes produced (less or more than six places)? Since each of the notes is derived from the note/call of a particular animal/bird, may be the original person meant that the animal in question uses a subset of these organs to produce its sound? Could be also a case of very fuzzy translation....Does anybody have any other commentary on the sangIta ratnakara? Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 26 23:06:20 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 19:06:20 -0400 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032777.23782.13262714827816302824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-26 18:16:56 EDT, rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA writes: << The comments on sadja are as follows (translation from Sangitaratnakara of Sarngadeva, ed. and trans. R.K. Shringy and Prem Lata Sharma): a) it is the precursor (lit. the progenitor) of the six other notes b) it is brought into being by six other notes, for, as an integrated part of the heptad (saptaka) it is manifested by the rest of the parts together. c) alternatively, it is produced by six organs of the body, viz. the nostrils, the throat, the palate, the breast, the tongue and the teeth. (commentary on Sangitaratnakara, Svaragatadhyaya (1), Prakarana 3, sloka 23) >> Thanks for this important reference. But we are still left with the problem we started with. To me it seems the commentators had no logical basis for explaining the word. I simply do not trust the explanations from this type of commentators. What we really need is a linguistic/grammatical explanation from Sanskrit linguists/grammarians. What are the rules that underlie the creation of words such as padmaja, girija, dvija, etc.? If these rules are applied to SaDja, what will be the logical meaning? For instance, in the words, padmaja, dvija, etc. the result of birth is the named subject. Explanation (a) seems to imply that the results of the birth are some things other than the named subject. Does Sanskrit form words like this? Or is this a case of folk etymology? Explanation (b) is even more confusing. When is the earliest evidence for the concept of 'saptaka' in Sanskrit? And what is the meaning of SaDja being brought into existence by the other six notes? Explanation (c) also does not make sense. For instance, if SaDja is produced from the above-mentioned six places, in how many places are the other notes produced (less or more than six places)? Regards S. Palaniappan From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Fri Sep 26 20:20:01 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 20:20:01 +0000 Subject: VBA searching machine Message-ID: <161227032771.23782.16840178815026920396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I am programming VBA modules that search in the TOKUNAGA-Mahabharata files for certain words you are looking for. The module looks not only for the term you are looking for but also checks for all possible cases and of cours the cases of sandhi too have to realzed. At the end the module should give you a list with all stanzas in your actual Winword-window. Are there anybody doing the job together with me? Heiner From sg at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Sep 27 01:02:54 1997 From: sg at COMPUSERVE.COM (Swami Gitananda) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 21:02:54 -0400 Subject: Dasanami Order Message-ID: <161227032779.23782.17178616553538851717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re. Dasanami Order, an additional reference you may find useful is: Dazey, Wade, "Tradition and Modernization in the Organization of the Dasanami Samnyasins," in _Monastic Life in the Christian and Hindu Traditions_, eds. Austin B. Creel and Vasudha Narayan. (New York: Mellen Press, 1990) Regards, Swami Gitananda ---------- From: Indology Sent: Friday, September 26, 1997 12:29 PM To: INTERNET:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Dasanami Order Would anyone know of any works published on the asramas of the Dasanami Order? I was surprised to find no substantial material on this matter in the Indoogy Archives. Thanks once again for replying either to the list or myself or to Dr. T.S. Rukmani (rukmani at alcor.concordia.ca). Chris Austin Concordia University Department of Religion Montreal, Canada c_austi at alcor.concordia.ca From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Fri Sep 26 20:01:08 1997 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 22:01:08 +0200 Subject: Dasanami Order Message-ID: <161227032769.23782.11059565858851457052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maybe not that useful, but some reference to Dasnamis to be found in: Wilson, Horace Hayman, "Essays and Lectures Chiefly on the Religion of the Hindus. A Sketch of the Religious Sects of the Hindus", London, first edition 1828 Oman, John Campbell, "The Mystics, Ascetics and Saints of India", T. Fischer Unwin, London 1903 Jaap Pranger From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Sep 27 04:32:02 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 00:32:02 -0400 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032783.23782.2708895628108568518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-09-26 21:40:46 EDT, mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << It is true that the most popular meaning of the ending "-ja:/jA" is :birth/to be born from....but the ending can take on other meanings including exotic ones like swift,victory etc. One of the lesser used meanings of this ending is :prepared from,made of....In this context, if we translate "ShaDja" as prepared from (six) organs, it would make logical sense i.e. note produced with the help of six organs which are listed by Prem Lata Sharma in part (c)....This is also said by Tyagaraja in his "Sobhillu saptasvara"( rAgA jaganmOhini) where he says in the anupallavi: "nAbhi hrd-kaNTHa rasana, nAsAdula entO"..."sobhillu sapta svara"(Pallavi) ( the first 5 words are Skt based are need no translation, nAsAdula is just the Teluguised version of "of the nAsAdi", entO is "a lot of") Sobhillu is I think, derived from Skt "ZObhA" sapta svara is from Skt>> I think 'being born of , prepared from, made of' are all semantically very close. So the basic logic could work. But, my understanding is that the theory of musical scales with the concepts of the relationship between 'SaDja' and 'pancama' etc., and the octave were derived with the help of instruments. Given that, the six places of production is not really relevant to define SaDja. I am sure other notes are produced from equal number of places. I think ThyAgaraja was just using a conventional description/cliche in the song. <> Even when you begin the grahabhedam/modal shift of the tonic, you start with a basic scale with SaDja already in it. It does not appear only in the shifted scales. Further, at least in Tamil musicological texts, the basic scale was described as "kural kural Ayatu cempAlai" or "harikAmpOti is the one where SaDja is SaDja". Even the base scale was considered as the first of the possible shifted scales. I think we are still not anywhere near a solution. So, will the Sanskrit specialists jump in and give a reasonable explanation? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From lnelson at PWA.ACUSD.EDU Sat Sep 27 14:38:27 1997 From: lnelson at PWA.ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 14:38:27 +0000 Subject: Dasanami Order Message-ID: <161227032786.23782.10411202387701411208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wade Dasey did his Ph.D. dissertation some years ago at Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, on the Dasanami Order. It may be available on microfilm. His address: Dr. Wade Dazey Department of Religious Studies University of Wisconsin-Whitewater Whitewater, WI 53190-1790 LN ------------------------ Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu From r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Sat Sep 27 11:54:37 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 14:54:37 +0300 Subject: ciroTaa Message-ID: <161227032784.23782.1824068074737641943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:49:26 -0400 From: "E. Bashir" Subject: ciroTaa I have encountered this word in a children's story (written in Urdu in Lahore in the 1960's). From the context, it means 'male sparrow', but I have not been able to locate it in any Urdu or Hindi dictionary that I have looked at. Can anyone tell me the dialect provenance of this word. (note that r is not retroflex.) Thanks MacGregor, Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary: cirauTaa, a cock bird. Regional. Turner 4571 might shed a little light on it. Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 28 03:42:14 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 20:42:14 -0700 Subject: A few questions Message-ID: <161227032788.23782.81446577485088932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few questions for the Tamil/Kannada experts and Sinhalese history experts: 1. Jaffna was originally called "yAzhppANam" in Tamil( hope my transliteration is correct) which translates as the "city of the lyre" (yAzh).How did it acquire its name i.e. I'm interested in the musical connection. How did the name Jaffna come about( was it the Portugese mispronounciation of the original Tamil word?) 2. What was "Batticaloa" originally called in Tamil?(I'm assuming the original is a Tamil word, pls free to correct me if I'm wrong..the reason why I think this is true is because the Northern and North-Eastern Provinces are normally depicted as having been Tamil dominated) Trincomalee, I know was tirukkONAmalai.... 3. There is the story of the rSi agatsya visiting Tamil Nadu at the time of the wedding of pArvati and Ziva( 1.in order to counterbalance the weight of people going into North India, goes one version;2.to subude the steady rising of the Vindhyas, runs another version)I'm looking for the exact spot( texts and Zlokas) where this is mentioned, both in Sanskrit and Tamil..Is this( his being an influence on the Tamil language refered into in other languages as well?)..... 4. Is there an English translation of the 9th century kannaDa work, "kavirAjamArga"..Can somebody give me good references to this work/tell me more about it.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Sun Sep 28 04:51:30 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 23:51:30 -0500 Subject: A few questions Message-ID: <161227032789.23782.5200848748923526658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:42 PM 9/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >A few questions for the Tamil/Kannada experts and Sinhalese history >experts: >1. Jaffna was originally called "yAzhppANam" in Tamil( hope my >transliteration is correct) which translates as the "city of the lyre" >(yAzh).How did it acquire its name i.e. I'm interested in the musical >connection. According to the legend, it is told that one blind singer (anthakak kavi/pANaN) (named Veraragavan ?), played the yAzh in the court of the King (don't know which kingdom and got Jaffna as the gift. Hence it is called yAzh + pANaN's place = yAzhpANam. yAzhpANavaipavamAlai may through more light, I think. > How did the name Jaffna come about( was it the Portugese >mispronounciation of the original Tamil word?) Do not know. >2. What was "Batticaloa" originally called in Tamil? Still the Tamil name is maddakkiLappu aka maddu nagar; Do not know the cause; But, this town is known for its 'singing fishes' (about which some tried to prove scientifically as the sound due to some oysters' biomechanism?); One word for oyster in Tamil is maddi; kaLappu/kiLappu is from kaLam (field/living region/kuRichchi). Hence, I think (note it: it is only my guess) it is called maddakkiLappu. >(I'm assuming the >original is a Tamil word, pls free to correct me if I'm wrong..the >reason why I think this is true is because the Northern and >North-Eastern Provinces are normally depicted as having been Tamil >dominated) Trincomalee, I know was tirukkONAmalai.... Right; Again, myth says this as rAvaNan's capital; The legand for the root of the name is, Once AthisEshan and vAyu bahavAn wanted to test who the strongest; Then, AthisEshan wrapped the mERu mountain by his body, and by his force vAyu hurled three pieces; one is tirukkONamalai (aka tadshaNakailAyam), the other two are thiruvaNNAmalai and thiruvAnaikkA (not sure of the third). >Regards, >Krishna Find today a fine day. Ramani From r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Sun Sep 28 06:56:15 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 09:56:15 +0300 Subject: Hindi-Urdu causatives Message-ID: <161227032791.23782.8275586722223341677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am looking for recent publications on Hindi-Urdu causatives, and would appreciate any references. Thank you, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Sep 28 12:19:11 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 13:19:11 +0100 Subject: Emacs + devanagari Message-ID: <161227032793.23782.5450483658786477468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In case you have missed the announcement, I am informed that there is a new version of Emacs (v 20.2). It now has international language support built in as a standard. It supports Devanagari and a lot of other Asian languages and scripts. Dominik From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Sun Sep 28 13:29:14 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 14:29:14 +0100 Subject: Looking for an aussie Message-ID: <161227032797.23782.12617060445484766872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology netters, excuse me for asking a non-indological question, but I am pretty hard up for an answer. Could anybody explain the expression "layback" in the following sentence: "Happy hours, discount drinks and irresponsible promotions such as laybacks were found to be a prime cause of violence in Australia." Thanx in advance! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Sun Sep 28 13:50:49 1997 From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 15:50:49 +0200 Subject: Emacs + devanagari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032798.23782.14662832688801811784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > In case you have missed the announcement, I am informed that there is a > new version of Emacs (v 20.2). It now has international language support > built in as a standard. It supports Devanagari and a lot of other Asian > languages and scripts. > > Dominik > The Devanagari implementation on Emacs 20.2 still has some bugs in treatment of avagraha and vocalic r. The implementor privately informed me that this will be fixed in the next release (i.e., ver. 20.3). It seems that the patch to fix this problem has already been sent to Richard Stallman, the maintainer of GNU Emacs. As the re-installation process of Emacs is a somewhat tedious task, it would be better to wait the next version. (I myself am the implementor of the Tibetan language support on GNU Emacs 20. I will be glad if the users send me comments about my Tibetan implementation.) Toru Tomabechi University of Lausanne From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Sep 28 12:20:52 1997 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 17:50:52 +0530 Subject: a request for research guidance in ssanskrit literature Message-ID: <161227032795.23782.16620913394270949578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Gurus and freinds I am a post graduate in sanskrit and had the opportunity to learn sanskrit under the guidance of late Dr Srinivas Shastri ( former Dayand Chair professor at kurukshetra University and also my father). I am trying to renew my scholarly carreer and would liek to correspond with colleagues who have interest in Sanskrit literature and woudlliek to guide a novice like me. I searched literature at some of teh sites but did not find a great deal of my interest. I am interested in snaskrit prose but also in Maha kavyas from the point of view of either refrences to nature or woemn issues. I do not know as yet what research has been done in this regard but am willing to learn. I will most gratefully acknowledge any help, guidance and advice on the matter I need suggestions for topics, sites from where I can download literature ( thanks to the help of my husband Prof Anil KGupta who is typing this message ) . I do not know much about computer either. Looking forward to advice and blessings of knowledgeable guides and gurus thanks Sadhana Gupta c/o Prof Anil K Gupta IIM Ahmedabad 380015 p.s. Please send me any reprints or printed lietrature at above address. From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Sun Sep 28 16:45:03 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 18:45:03 +0200 Subject: Hindi PC DOS announced Message-ID: <161227032800.23782.16799946963359085184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:58 26.09.97 -0400, you wrote: >Tobias Grote-Beverborg wrote: >> >> Dear Mr. Russell, >> I received your mail (press release, article) from H-Asia list, a List >> dedicated to Asian Studies. I allowed myself to forward that article to >> Indology-List, a list dedicated to Indological studies, as I thought it >> would be interesting for the members. > >Hello Tobias > >Yes, I thought it was interesting as well, which is why I forwarded it >to the Asian Internet Marketing (AIM)list. Alas, my comments were edited >out by the moderator, making it appear as though I had written it. I >didn't realise how widely quoted the AIM list is! > >> >> At 08:57 25.09.1997 -0400, rrussell at ibm.net wrote: >> >> >What was presented were not my words. >> >> Whose words were it then? > >I'm not aware of the precise author, but my position within IBM allows >me to receive press clippings, and that is what it was. I do believe >that the source lies within TATA IBM, an Indian joint venture company in >the IT field, and I have a contact point for further information. > >I have pasted the full text of what I received at the bottom of this >email, and the contact point is at the bottom of that. > >> I still have a copy which bears your name on it. >> > >Only because email software puts a sig on the bottom of sent messages :) >I wrote a message at the top that suggested this may be of interest to >listmembers, that it was a press release from TATA IBM. That was removed >by the moderator, hence the confusion since. > >> If the message isn't yours or if it has been quoted wrongly, please send the >> original to me. > >The original is quoted at the bottom of this note, just as I received >it, for your reference. I'm employed by IBM in Australia and have no >direct connection with TATA IBM, although my bias is to support IBM's >efforts to bring computing skills and resources to all areas in >Asia-Pacific (and to make a profit doing it, of course). All comments >are mine personally and do not necessarily represent the views of IBM, >of course. > >I was impressed that an effort had been made to rewite PC DOS in a >language other than English, although I did note that Hindi, the >"official language" was chosen, despite its minority use. Although not >spelled out, the full text gives figures for the use of Hindi that makes >it clear the bulk of the population are speaking other languages. The >release also tries to justify the choice of Hindi when it notes the >history of the "official language". I'm encouraged that IBM has a stated >policy of encouraging diversity, and also that joint ventures are made >with local companies in the countries where they operate, so at least >some of the wealth that is created gets to stay in the country of >origin. I can't speak for how that is implemented, other than in >Australia, where we have a multicultural workforce and a strong >identification with our partners in Asia. I hope the implementation in >India is not limited by outside interests. > > >> I'm sorry if I have caused any inconvinience to you but I believe that the >> net is a platform where mails could be forwarded to others as long as it >> doesn't hurt their or the sender's privacy. > >That's fine, I understand. The fault, if there is any, is that the >moderator left my short words of explanation out, making the full text >seem to be mine. In his defence, though, it really does read like a >press release and would seem very stilted if it were comment! In >hindsite I would have done more to make the nature and source of the >text apparent. Too late now ;-) > > >> I think the topic is an interesting one and it deserves discussion. >> Please, allow me to send you some of the mails I received via INDOLOGY, >> I also forwarded your reply to Mr. Palaniappa and me to Indology. >> If the discussion doesn't get too big we can continue that way otherwise >> let me know about a better solution if you are interested to hang on. > >Please send me any comments directly attributable to that posting. I'm >interested in the discussion, although I'm not a specialist in this >area. I'm interested in using the Internet to connect people, >particularly people who are otherwise separated by distance from their >original homelands. That is a big issue in Australia, where close to >half the population was born elsewhere. The promotion of free press and >the free flow of information is important to me, although it is clearly >easy to distort reality without intention, even when simply quoting a >posting from a mailing list. > >Journalists (as a rule) are trained to check their sources. One area of >difficulty with the Internet is that sources are rarely checked, and I >am guilty of that as well in this case, as I didn't seek permission from >the author. My excuse is that I believed it to be in the public domain, >that it was press release promoting a new product. Upon reflection, I >can understand that it seems more like cultural imperialism, but there >are always many sides to a story. > >By the way, the moderator of the Asian Internet Marketing List is a Mr >Bala Pillai, a Malaysian Tamil living in Australia, and he is certainly >very pro-diversity and pro-Tamil language and culture. I sent the >clipping to his mailing list knowing that he would understand the >context. > >Thanks for your comments, and best wishes. > >Regards > >Robert. > >-- >Robert Russell >IBM Global Services Internet and Managed Networks >rrussell at ibm.net > > >Tata IBM Announces Availability of Hindi PC DOS On Official Language Day > > New Delhi, September 15, 1997 > > To commemorate the Official Language Day, TATA IBM today announced the > availability of the Hindi PC DOS in India. PC DOS is the first and >only > operating system in Hindi. This landmark effort by IBM is in response >to > the commitment of the Government of India to promote the Hindi >language. > > In a country where only 5% of the population speaks English, language >is > the biggest barrier to computer literacy. The Tata IBM initiative will > enable the Hindi speaking population of 360 million to have access to > computers in their language. This will create a critical mass of >computer > literate people who will contribute to the growth of India's software > developer population. > > The computer programming profession, today a career choice only of an > English speaking minority is now available to the immense Hindi >speaking > population. IBM's Education Services in India and IIS Infotech today > announced that they would provide programming training in Hindi as a >new > course through their various training centers across the country. > > Mr. Ravi Marwaha, Managing Director & CEO, TATA IBM says, "IBM is >committed > to India's information technolgoy development where local language >computing > is the key issue. We are working closely with third party developers >for > comprehensive application software development and with hardware >vendors > for bundling the Hindi PC DOS with new and existing machines. We want >to > see the benefits of computerization trickle down to the masses." > > Mr. Pawan Kumar, President , IBM Global Services India says, "Today, >the > penetration of computers in India is just one per 1000 population. >There is > a definite need to increase this ratio. The availability of Hindi PC >DOS > will increase the usage of computers, both in the office and at home. >This > will contribute significantly towards meeting the Government's >objective of > increasing the penetration ten times." > > According to Mr. Mike Colleary, Director, IBM Emerging Markets >(Software), > Asia Pacific, "India is a major strategic market and one of IBM >Software's > fastest growing opportunities. The Hindi PC DOS launch shows IBM's >committment > growing opportunity. The Hindi PC DOS launch shows IBM's commitment to >this > to this important emerging country. This tremendous area of opportunity >is > fueled by the second largest software developer population in the >world." > > IBM has made a conscious decision to port Hindi PC DOS on hardware >starting > from a PC 386. By doing so, Hindi PC DOS reduces the cost of computing > considerably and allows our customers to use their existing machines. >This > will also ensure the availability of a computer at a low cost to our >Hindi > literate population. This gives the Hindi PC DOS enabled machines >immense > marketing potential and usefulness in the country. Work on application > software by individual developers is going on at full steam with IBM's > support and encouragement. Office productive packages, database >management, > spreadsheets and customised user packages will be the first to be >developed. > It supports all internal and external commands, data and messages in >Hindi. > > September 14th is India's " Official Language Day." It was initiated >by > Dr. Rajendra Prasad, the first President of India in 1950, as a >commitment > of the Government of India to promote Hindi as the Official Language. >The > Official Language Act of 1949, which makes the use of Hindi in Central > Government Offices mandatory all across the country also resulted from >this > commitment. > > For more information contact: > > Tata IBM Limited > Ph: 080 526 2355 > > Tata Information Systems Ltd > TISL Tower > Golden Enclave Airport Road > Bangalore 560017 > India > > Tel: 91 80 526 2355 > Fax: 91 80 526 8344 > > > From francois at SAS.AC.UK Sun Sep 28 18:31:54 1997 From: francois at SAS.AC.UK (Francois Quiviger) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 19:31:54 +0100 Subject: 3 questions about touch Message-ID: <161227032802.23782.12507240530927327803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I wonder whether anyone could help me with the following three questions on the history of the sense of touch. 1. The standard Western conception of sensation, at least up to the 17th century, is based on the Aristotelian formula that there is nothing in the intellect which has not been been previously in the senses. Several passages of the Upanishad suggest that Indian thought processed sensation according to rather different parameters. But is there an Indian locus classicus, a text comparable to Aristotle's *De Anima* in terms of authority and influence? 2. To study touch I study objects intended to be touched. In this respect Western rosaries provide remarkable evidence. I want to compare them to Indian `rosaries', the type still sold on the Ghats in Benares; but is there some reliable text dealing with their use and meaning. 3. Studying the history of touch is also studying the history of the perception of the fingertips. In this context does anyone knows why and since when Indian musicians count beats by touching the tip of their thumb with the tip of their fingers? With many thanks in advance. Francois Quiviger Warburg Institute University of London From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sun Sep 28 23:56:12 1997 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 19:56:12 -0400 Subject: a request for research guidance in ssanskrit literature Message-ID: <161227032804.23782.11100610273157046541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sadhana Gupta, You might find the following sites worth looking at: http://reality.sgi.com/employees/atul/sanskrit/sanskrit.html http://www.indianlanguages.com/main.htm http://www.lehigh.edu/~ksn2/sanskrit.html http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1415/sanskrit.html http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/ses/sasrf2.html http://www.unil.ch/orient/Home_FRAME.html http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/scripts.html http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html http://www.hindunet.org/sanskrit http://www.dkagencies.com http://www.chetana.com Best of luck, Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Sep 28 23:10:16 1997 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 04:40:16 +0530 Subject: a request for information and sources on theory (ies) of perception, causation and explaination Message-ID: <161227032806.23782.8474431584499061430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends I will be grateful for some help in understanding various theories explainaing the concept of perception, causality and explaination in Indian and Other Traditions in comparative sense. In Sankhya I remember having read about several attributes of a phenomenon for exlaining its essence such as Guna, Karma , Prakar, swabhav etc., Pl forgive my ingorance. Is Sankhya Yoga available on inetrnet sites? What else shoudl one read on thsi subject. Thanks anil K Gupta IIM A and SRISTI anilg at iimahd.ernet.in http://csf.colorado.edu/sristi From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Mon Sep 29 10:48:49 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 05:48:49 -0500 Subject: A few questions by Krishna, dated 9/27/97 and reply by Ramani Message-ID: <161227032821.23782.18383498108265731961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:11 AM 9/29/97 +0100, you wrote: >1.Regarding Ramani's explanation of place names in the Tamil region of >Ilankai, I am in general agreement with him but I could add a little more. >According to the legend, the uninhabited sandy tract of.YAZHppANam was >given as a present to a blind poet YAZHppATi/ Antakakkavi VIrarAkavan by a >king called Ukkirasingan of Katiramalai. The poet brought his own folk from >Tamilnadu and settled them there. The king who made the present had not >been identified. >Jaffna is indeed a Portuguese version of this name. > >2. The Tamil name for Batticaloa is MaTTakkaLappu. The word kaLappu is >given in the Tamil Lexicon as meaning shallow part of the sea. The name of >the region is said to come from a huge vAvi or tank, within Batticaloa, >connected to the sea. According to the MaTTakkaLappu MAnmiyam, a legendary >chronicle, the original settlers, who entered the tank, noticed, after >sailing a long distance, that they had reached the shores, shouted that >they had reached the end of kaLappu, maTTu having the meanings of limit, >boundary, also. kiLappu is a colloquial form. > >3. Regarding the name of the third rock, I think that it should have been >TirukkALatti. TiruvAnaikkA is on plain land- there is no rock. But >TuruccirAppaLLi Rock is situated within a few kilometres from the >TiruvAnaikkA temple. There is a TAyumAnavar temple for Siva in the rock, >but it is the Ganesa temple at the peak that attracts pilgrims. > >Regards, >A.Veluppillai > Dear Velluppillai, Totally agreed. Ramani From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Mon Sep 29 12:01:30 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 08:01:30 -0400 Subject: Film, media In-Reply-To: <19970929091428052.AAA167@PPP108.internet.no> Message-ID: <161227032824.23782.12044653620376135070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars, For a massive bibliography on Indian film, see the Bibliography in _Encyclopaedia of Indian Cinema_ by Ashish Rajadhyaksha and Paul Willemen, Indiana University Press, 1995. It also includes a chronicle of Indian film and history and a massive index. Regards, Sushil Mittal On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear Indology net, > > I would be grateful for bibliographic data on the topic > "film, the media" in South Asia. > > I know that my Hindi teacher in Heidelberg, Lothar Lutze, wrote on the Hindi > film, but I don't know the title of his book(s). > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > > Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no > Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Mon Sep 29 13:08:06 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 08:08:06 -0500 Subject: Film, media Message-ID: <161227032829.23782.18122810376822348880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:01 AM 9/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >> Dear Indology net, >> >> I would be grateful for bibliographic data on the topic >> "film, the media" in South Asia. >> >> I know that my Hindi teacher in Heidelberg, Lothar Lutze, wrote on the Hindi >> film, but I don't know the title of his book(s). >> >> Best regards, >> >> Lars Martin Fosse >> Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >> 0674 Oslo >> >> Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >> Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >> Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no >> Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 >> > May be a remotely related book (History and analysis on Tamil films in English): S. Theodore Baskaran's Golden Lotus award winning, "The Eye of the Serpent." I think it was published just three months back. Publishers: East West Books, 62 -A Armes Road Keezhpaakkam Chennai-600 010 Tamil Nadu India. Pages 280. Price : 195 - 00 Rs Rgds, Ramani From jai at FLEX.COM Mon Sep 29 18:44:39 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 08:44:39 -1000 Subject: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Message-ID: <161227032843.23782.15791896960578123031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste! Excerpts Grave found that could be 5,000 years old September 29, 1997 COLOMBO (Reuters) ? Sri Lankan archaeologists have begun excavating a site believed to be of a 5,000-year-old human grave that was discovered by villagers in the south, the independent Island Newspaper reported Monday. The newspaper quoted the director of the archaeology department, Dr. Siran Deraniyagala, as saying the discovery was made about a month ago at a mining lagoon in Hambantota district, about 112 miles southeast of the capital Colombo. End of Excerpts Sympathies to Eurocentrics in shock :) :) :) Jai Maharaj jai at mantra.com Om Shanti From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Mon Sep 29 13:14:53 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 09:14:53 -0400 Subject: TOC [August issue]: _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Message-ID: <161227032832.23782.16242241096267861667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ CONTENTS VOLUME 1, NUMBER 2, AUGUST 1997 (is now available) ARTICLES: When Rahu devours the moon: The myth of the birth of Krsna Caitanya ~ 221-64 Tony K. Stewart, North Carolina State University The yogi and the Goddess ~ 265-87 Nicholas F. Gier, University of Idaho Jaina ideology and early Mughal trade with Europeans ~ 288-313 Ellison Banks Findly, Trinity College Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part II of III: The imperative of the wish ~ 314-36 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado What's a God? The quest for the right understanding of devata in Brahmanical ritual theory (mimamsa) ~ 337-85 Francis X. Clooney, Boston College Radhakrishnan as advocate of the class/caste system as a universal religio-social system ~ 386-400 Robert N. Minor, University of Kansas Scandals, cover-ups, and other imagined occurences in the life of Ramakrsna: An examination of Jeffrey Kripal's _Kali's child_ ~ 401-20 Svami Atmajnanananda [birthname, Stuart Elkman], Ramakrsna Order BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES, ~ 421-40 From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Mon Sep 29 08:18:53 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 09:18:53 +0100 Subject: Thanks to the aussies Message-ID: <161227032815.23782.13865938691060820090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank everybody who answered my email concerning laybacks for their effort. Special thanks to David Dargie, who has given us an invaluable insight into Australian culture, although he was'nt the only one to explain what a layback is. If you are bemused why I asked the question, the answer is that I am doing a translation for the Foreign Office concerning how to control public drinking. (Ideas for publicans and similar people). The layback concept is new to me, but it sounds like one of those things that make you want to be young again. Cheers! Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lasic at OEAW.AC.AT Mon Sep 29 07:56:34 1997 From: lasic at OEAW.AC.AT (Horst Lasic) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 09:56:34 +0200 Subject: Explanation for 'SaDja' Message-ID: <161227032817.23782.11483968120923407165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna wrote: > As far as I can tell,"ShaDja-first note" here is the prevalent way in > which music is taught now( and possibly then), but what is this "fourth > note" thing? In this case, I think "panCama" would be the base > note...i.e. panCama-1,dhaivata-2,niShAda-3,ShaDja-4...was there a > time/reason when panCama was the base note? I know that there are rAgas > in Carnatic music where all the notes are between the mandara sthAyi > panCamam and the madhya sthAyi panCamam- "navarOj" is a good example of > this, I think- this is atleast the impression I got after listening to > deekshitars "hastivadanAya" and a rendering of bhadrACala rAmadas's "nee > samkalpamu eTuvaNtidO ghana", but then is navarOj an ancient rAga? I > think it is of more recent origin....So, can anybody please tell me as > to what is being refered to when he says "SaDja is the fourth note"? In *A Descriptive Catalogue of the Sanskrit Manuscripts of the Government Oriental Manuscripts Library, Madras. By the Late M. Seshagiri Sastri. Vol. I, Vedic Literature, First Part. Madras 1901.* on page 76, there is explained that there are seven notes in the chanting of the sAmaveda and that these seven notes correspond to the notes of the gamut of Hindu music in the following way: prathama ..... madhyama dvitIya........gAndhAra tRtIya.........RSabha caturtha.......SaDja pancama........dhaivata SaSTa..........niSAda saptama........pancama Then, there are quoted two verses of the nAradazikSA: yaH sAmagAnAM prathamaH veNor madhyama? smRtaH yo *sau dvitIyo gAndhAraH tRtIyas tv RSabhaH smRtaH caturthaH SaDja ity AhuH pancamo dhaivato bhavet SaSTo niSAdo vij?eya? saptama? pancamaH smRtaH. I hope, this is of any help Horst Lasic From Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE Mon Sep 29 09:11:24 1997 From: Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 10:11:24 +0100 Subject: A few questions by Krishna, dated 9/27/97 and reply by Ramani Message-ID: <161227032814.23782.11192101826249373766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1.Regarding Ramani's explanation of place names in the Tamil region of Ilankai, I am in general agreement with him but I could add a little more. According to the legend, the uninhabited sandy tract of.YAZHppANam was given as a present to a blind poet YAZHppATi/ Antakakkavi VIrarAkavan by a king called Ukkirasingan of Katiramalai. The poet brought his own folk from Tamilnadu and settled them there. The king who made the present had not been identified. Jaffna is indeed a Portuguese version of this name. 2. The Tamil name for Batticaloa is MaTTakkaLappu. The word kaLappu is given in the Tamil Lexicon as meaning shallow part of the sea. The name of the region is said to come from a huge vAvi or tank, within Batticaloa, connected to the sea. According to the MaTTakkaLappu MAnmiyam, a legendary chronicle, the original settlers, who entered the tank, noticed, after sailing a long distance, that they had reached the shores, shouted that they had reached the end of kaLappu, maTTu having the meanings of limit, boundary, also. kiLappu is a colloquial form. 3. Regarding the name of the third rock, I think that it should have been TirukkALatti. TiruvAnaikkA is on plain land- there is no rock. But TuruccirAppaLLi Rock is situated within a few kilometres from the TiruvAnaikkA temple. There is a TAyumAnavar temple for Siva in the rock, but it is the Ganesa temple at the peak that attracts pilgrims. Regards, A.Veluppillai From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Mon Sep 29 09:14:28 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 10:14:28 +0100 Subject: Film, media Message-ID: <161227032819.23782.18172536409268364825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology net, I would be grateful for bibliographic data on the topic "film, the media" in South Asia. I know that my Hindi teacher in Heidelberg, Lothar Lutze, wrote on the Hindi film, but I don't know the title of his book(s). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From kvram at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 29 17:16:53 1997 From: kvram at HOTMAIL.COM (Kowshika Ramaprasad) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 10:16:53 -0700 Subject: A few questions - kavirAjamArga Message-ID: <161227032841.23782.13988548617385809817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >A few questions for the Tamil/Kannada experts and Sinhalese > history experts: Although I am not an expert, I thought I can put some light :-)) > >4. Is there an English translation of the 9th century kannaDa work, >"kavirAjamArga"..Can somebody give me good references to this > work/tell >me more about it.... I'm not aware of availability of English translation of kavirAja mArga. At least I can give some details about this work. The earliest available Kannada work, this happens to be a treatise on the poetry. As the name suggests , it tries to give a path for the poets. It has been largely inspired by by Dandi's Kavyadarsha and Bhamaha's work(I do notknow the name). It mentions several poets and kAvyas before its tiem and 'pazhaya' ( old) Kannada literature and pushes the date of literary activities in Kannada by about a century or two. A lot of debate has gone about the author. One school says it was written by Srivijaya, ( references can be seen to "srivijaya's kavi mArga" in 12th century Shabda mani darpana - the first book about Kannda grammer) a poet in the court of Rashtrakuta king Amoghavarsha Nripatunga (808 - 864 AD) while the other school believes it to be a work of the king Amoghavarsha himself. The work describes diffferent styles,do's and dont's for poets. Some people believe that the examples given in Kaviraja marga to be from earlier Kannada works while some others think they were written by the author himself to illustrate his point. And also interesting to note that both the land and the language are called Kannada. The author assigns the area between the Kaveri and Godavari as the "Kannada". And assigns the present day north Karnataka as the heartland of Kannada culture. Regards, Ramaprasad K V > >Regards, >Krishna > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jai at FLEX.COM Mon Sep 29 21:01:15 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 11:01:15 -1000 Subject: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Message-ID: <161227032847.23782.11121421420473525057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste! Lars Martin Fosse asked: >> Sympathies to Eurocentrics in shock? :) :) :) > > Why should Eurocentrics be in shock for a 5,000-year-old > human grave? Some think that the world began with them! Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Mon Sep 29 16:03:34 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 12:03:34 -0400 Subject: FYI: New Book on Tibetan Identity, Culture, Society, & Religion , is now available Message-ID: <161227032836.23782.9945733742194287068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ======================================================================= CONSTRUCTING TIBETAN CULTURE: Contemporary Perspectives Edited by Frank J. Korom ======================================================================= _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ provocatively explores the numerous ways in which Tibet has been represented to the outside world in the past and present. The volume attempts to move away from earlier colonial and romantic descriptions of Tibet as either an utopian paradise or a degenerated wasteland. By interrogating such dichotomous representations generated by foreigners in both historical and modern, ethnographic contexts, the authors demonstrate that culture-building is an ongoing and dialectic process involving a number of different cultural groups, both indigenous and foreign. Through an examination of a wide variety of themes ranging from the terminology we use to describe Tibet, its people, religion, and culture to the virtual exclusion of Tibet from the literature on global diasporas, _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ attempts to relocate modern Tibetan studies squarely within the realms of anthropology and cultural studies. By addressing such theoretical problems as the foreign appropriation of Tibetan artifacts and religious practices, as well as the emergence of newly created or renegotiated expressive traditions in exile, the contributors to the volume share a common concern for moving away from essentialist understandings of Tibetan culture in favor of more critical approaches within an interdisciplinary academic context. With its extended set of case studies about Tibetan culture and worldview, _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ suggests that the concept of "authenticity" is not easily defined in the modern world, for it becomes a contested concept when it enters the world marketplace of culture. In this global arena, many communities bring their own interpretive agendas to bear on matters relating to Tibet and its people, forcing Tibetans themselves to enter into a densely layered conversation about their own identities, cultural traditions, and religions. ======================================================================= CONTENTS: Introduction Frank J. Korom PART I: IMAGINING TIBETAN CULTURE AND RELIGION 1. "Lamaism" and the Disappearance of Tibet Donald S. Lopez, Jr. 2. A Landscape for Dying: The Bardo Thodol and Western Fantasy Peter Bishop 3. Old Age Tibet in New Age America Frank J. Korom 4. Reading Negotiations in the Tibetan Diaspora Steven Venturino PART II: UNBOUND CANONS: AESTHETICS IN FLUX 5. When Tibetan Refugees Rock, Paradigms Roll: Echoes from Dharamsala's Musical Soundscape Keila Diehl 6. Struggling with Shangri-La: A Tibetan Artist in Exile Clare Harris 7. Grids and Serpents: A Tibetan Foundation Ritual in Switzerland Mary Van Dyke Index ======================================================================== SUBJECT AREAS: Anthropology / Cultural Studies / Tibetan Studies / South Asian Studies ======================================================================== ABOUT THE EDITOR AND CONTRIBUTORS: Frank J. Korom is curator of Asian and Middle Eastern Collections at the Museum of International Folk Art, New Mexico Peter Bishop is associate professor of Communications and Information Studies at the University of South Australia Keila Diehl recently completed her doctorate in Anthropology at the University of Texas, Austin Clare Harris is lecturer in the School of World Art Studies and Museology at the University of East Anglia Donald S. Lopez, Jr. is professor of Buddhist and Tibetan Studies at the University of Michigan Mary Van Dyke received her doctorate in the Art History and Archaeology Department of the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London Steven Venturino is a doctoral candidate in the Department of English at Loyola University, Chicago ====================================================================== PRAISE for _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ "The first book to explore the entire range of international representations of Tibetan culture. In one brilliant sweep, the contributors examine such diverse phenomena as orientalist ideas about Shangri-La, romantic conceptions of Lamaism, the influence of the Tibetan Book of the Dead on Western literature, and the role of exile art in the contemporary development of Tibetan culture. Fascinating!" Andre Gingrich University of Vienna "This is the first book to take a serious look at...the refiguring of Tibet in Western consciousness and of the complex and ambiguous position of Tibetan refugees....[The contributors] examine Tibetan issues with the full range of theoretical resources of contemporary scholarship. This is an important book for Tibetan studies and is likely to interest many in the wider fields of cultural studies and postmodern studies." Geoffrey Samuel Lancaster University ======================================================================== BIBLIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION: A volume in the "World Heritage Studies on Transnationalism and Multiculturailsm" for which Mohammed A. Bamyeh serves as Series Editor. Publication date: September 29, 1997 240 pp 1-896064-12-4 paperback US$19.95 ======================================================================== ORDER FORM: To: World Heritage Press 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 Fax (514) 771 2776 [ ] Send me _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ @ US-$19.95 each, plus $5 for shipping and handling for first copy, $1.50 for each additional copy. [ ] Check enclosed in the amount of US-$ ____________, made payable to World Heritage Press. [ ] Bill my institution (Purchase order enclosed) Delivery address: Name ____________________________________________________________ Address _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ City/State/Zip __________________________________________________ Tel ______________________________ Fax __________________________ Email ___________________________________________________________ ======================================================================== 06.97 From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Sep 29 02:36:08 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 12:36:08 +1000 Subject: Looking for an aussie Message-ID: <161227032808.23782.1647172107457452675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Lars >"Happy hours, discount drinks and irresponsible promotions such as laybacks >were found to be a prime cause of violence in Australia." I've just showed two very Australian co-PhD students here in Canberra your query, but neither of them has heard of "layback". Here are two suggestions, unfortunately both involve text emendations :-) 1 A "lay-by" might fit, this is a delayed purchasing system where a customer puts a very low deposit on a new item in a store (say $2), the store then holds the item until the full amount is paid off, only then is the item collected. 2 Is it possible the "l" in layback should be a "p"? Although what a payback is is still then a question! That's the best I can do for now, I'll keep asking and will check dictionaries of Australian English next time I'm in the library. Royce Wiles Australian National University From jai at FLEX.COM Mon Sep 29 23:00:12 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 13:00:12 -1000 Subject: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Message-ID: <161227032852.23782.17106831223117593526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste! Lars Martin Fosse commented: > "Dr. Jai Maharaj" explained: >> Lars Martin Fosse asked: >>>> Sympathies to Eurocentrics in shock :) :) :) >>> >>> Why should Eurocentrics be in shock for a 5,000-year-old >>> human grave? > >> Some think that the world began with them! > > Really? As far as I know, the world began long before any > humans were there at all, and as for humans, they are > generally believed to have originated in Africa, not in > the West. > I still fail to see the point. Perhaps because the smilies were deleted. They are now restored (see above). I have run across many Eurocentrics who refuse to realize that the world existed before them and that others accomplished a lot in science before them. Some of these jokers even teach in universities, misinforming others. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Mon Sep 29 12:33:18 1997 From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 14:33:18 +0200 Subject: Emacs + devanagari In-Reply-To: <199709281350.PAA18758@cisun2000.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227032827.23782.8840619729487151807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some additional information on Emacs 20 + Devanagari: The implementor of Emacs 20 Devanagari support, Mr. Taichi KAWABATA, told me that comments / bug reports from users are welcome and he is happy to integrate new features proposed by users in his implementation. Mr. Kawabata can be reached at: kawabata at exa.onlab.ntt.co.jp Please note, however, that Mr. Kawabata is not responsible for the global implementation of Emacs, other than its Devangari support. If you have non-devanagari specific questions about Emacs, the following mailing-lists may be your place to ask: mule at etl.go.jp (in English, charset=us-ascii) and mule-jp at etl.go.jp (in Japanese, charset=iso-2022-jp). To subscribe, send an e-mail to: mule-request at etl.go.jp with its contents: SUBSCRIBE If you subscribe to mule-jp at etl.go.jp, you will automatically receive the messages from mule at etl.go.jp too. Toru Tomabechi University of Lausanne From A.Grace at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU Mon Sep 29 05:34:03 1997 From: A.Grace at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Allen Grace) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 15:34:03 +1000 Subject: Looking for an aussie In-Reply-To: <19970928132913734.AAA269@PPP102.internet.no> Message-ID: <161227032810.23782.5259306758565113041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear Indology netters, > > excuse me for asking a non-indological question, but I am pretty hard up for > an answer. Could anybody explain the expression "layback" in the following > sentence: > > "Happy hours, discount drinks and irresponsible promotions such as laybacks > were found to be a prime cause of violence in Australia." > What kind of Australians are these students of yours? I wouldn't normally presume to post here, but I can tell you straight away that a layback is the practice of lying back over the bar while someone else pours strong alcohol directly into the mouth: often tequila is used for this purpose. Naturally, after just a couple, extreme drunkenness can result. Wahey! Allen ------------------------------------------------------------- "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. You can put a man in school, but you cannot make him think." - Ben Harper - From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Mon Sep 29 15:03:31 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 16:03:31 +0100 Subject: Hindi films Message-ID: <161227032834.23782.12164218912019750119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To those of you who supplied me with info on Hindi films: Thank you! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From dargie at CLTR.UQ.EDU.AU Mon Sep 29 06:35:07 1997 From: dargie at CLTR.UQ.EDU.AU (David Dargie) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 16:35:07 +1000 Subject: Looking for an aussie Message-ID: <161227032812.23782.16496464577637506991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Could anybody explain the expression "layback" in the following >sentence: > >"Happy hours, discount drinks and irresponsible promotions such as laybacks >were found to be a prime cause of violence in Australia." > Lars, I do not think that 'laybacks' have anything to do with the Oz term for casual (i.e. 'laid back') which is still quite common (though 'cool' is certainly on the increase). A 'layback' in this context refers to a not so laid back practice. Such an act would take place in a night-club on something like a barber's chair where the patron would 'lay back' in the chair and have their cocktail (generally a mix of straight spirits with provocative names like rocket-fuels, orgasms, mind-f#*%s, etc.) delivered directly down the throat. More often than not, the chair is dispensed with and patrons are required to lay down on the bar and the alcohol is poured unceremoniously into their mouth via two or more bottles. (Children, please don't try this at home!) ;-) It is expensive, sometimes messy, often dangerous, antisocial and very popular! Clearly the practice is part of the Australian binge-drinking mentality, but it is only practiced by a small element; the hard-core drinkers (some of them, women) who may or may not be violent. However, it is sponsored gleefully by the alcohol industry, who just as gleefully sponsor full contact forms of 'football', particularly Rubgy League. Violence at drinking establishments has a very long history in Australia and it still occurs regularly at some places (particularly in rural areas where testosterone-laden farm-hands, 'jackaroos', are occasionally let loose in a town, with swolen wallets, empty heads, sunburn and bad attitudes). ;-( (Apologies to any jackaroos on the list!) Fortunately, the drinking/fighting culture has not been so popular in Australia since the 1980s when I was a teenager. The drug culture has replaced the drinking culture to some extent, with emphasis now more on acquisition, by house-breaking or car-theft. Another form of violence has become more popular among the teenagers of the 1990s which owes much to the gang warfare of New York and Los Angeles. This has been accompanied by an increase in weapon-associated viloence, though guns are more difficult to acquire. Moreover, when guns are used by adolescents, it is more usually for the purpose of suicide than murder. Needless to say, this antisocial behaviour that is, to a limited extent, acceptable in this country, is associated with one of the highest rates of youth suicide in the world. It is a great shame to see many of the lives of my fellow youths (I am now 29) being wasted in such a frivolous way. Even greater is the shame that our community seems reticent to really respond to the challenge. That challenge is to give the youth of today some sense of belonging, self-importance and responsibility. After all, I would bet that any gang in Australia has more computerly able persons than our entire Federal Parliament! It is certainly not my intention to discourage tourism to our country, since we are on the whole a very laid back people, and our country is RELATIVELY unspoiled. However, if a tourist intended to drink heavily at places other than the Sheraton bars, then they should be very careful. Sorry Lars, for such a long-winded answer to a fairly simple question. Warmest regards David Dargie ***************************************************************** David Dargie Centre for Language Teaching and Research University of Queensland email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Phone: +61 7 3365 6917 Home: +61 7 3397 6863 ***************************************************************** From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Mon Sep 29 10:53:43 1997 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 18:53:43 +0800 Subject: A few questions Message-ID: <161227032823.23782.416484285300738416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Subject: Re: A few questions > >At 11:51 PM 9/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >>At 08:42 PM 9/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >>> > Dear Members of the List/Ramani/AlvaPillai, > > Please scroll down.....> > > Thank you. >> >>>(I'm assuming the >>>original is a Tamil word, pls free to correct me if I'm wrong..the >>>reason why I think this is true is because the Northern and >>>North-Eastern Provinces are normally depicted as having been Tamil >>>dominated) Trincomalee, I know was tirukkONAmalai.... >>Right; Again, myth says this as rAvaNan's capital; The legand for the root >>of the name is, >>Once AthisEshan and vAyu bahavAn wanted to test who the strongest; Then, >>AthisEshan wrapped the mERu mountain by his body, and by his force vAyu >>hurled three pieces; one is tirukkONamalai (aka tadshaNakailAyam), the other >>two are thiruvaNNAmalai and thiruvAnaikkA (not sure of the third). > > >>Find today a fine day. >>Ramani > >3. Regarding the name of the third rock, I think that it should have been >TirukkALatti. TiruvAnaikkA is on plain land- there is no rock. But >TuruccirAppaLLi Rock is situated within a few kilometres from the >TiruvAnaikkA temple. There is a TAyumAnavar temple for Siva in the rock, >but it is the Ganesa temple at the peak that attracts pilgrims. > >Regards, >A.Veluppillai > > Actually, Thiru KodungunRam @ PaRambu Malai of Pari VEL: is > one of the places that claim to have this sort of origin, i.e., > the contest of strength betweem Aadi SEshan and Vaayu. > This story is found in the sthalapuraanam called "ThirukkodungunRa > Maanmiyam". > That is why it is also called "PrachaNda Giri" and "ChaNdaadri". > Vaayu is also known as ChaNda and PrachaNda. > There is an inscription which is in part Sanskrit, belonging to > Jatavarman Sundara Paandiya ThEvar (1257 A.D.). It starts "Samastha > jagadh aadhaara sOma kula thilaka etc". It mentions that the > Paandiyan Emperor built a lofty tower which stopped the sun > and the moon on their tracks. This tower, he built for the temple > dedicated to "Chandaadhri Pathi" which is one of the names > for the Lord Mangai Baagar of the temple. > At present, the place is called Piranmalai and is situated in the > Sivagangai District of Tamilnadu. > > All the best, > > > Jayabarathi > > > > > >> >>>Regards, >>>Krishna >> >>Find today a fine day. >>Ramani >> > From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Mon Sep 29 20:10:38 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 21:10:38 +0100 Subject: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Message-ID: <161227032845.23782.3913936853092033300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Grave found that could be 5,000 years old > >September 29, 1997 > >COLOMBO (Reuters) ? Sri Lankan archaeologists have begun excavating >a site believed to be of a 5,000-year-old human grave that was discovered by villagers in the south, the independent Island >Newspaper reported Monday. > >Sympathies to Eurocentrics in shock :) :) :) Why should Eurocentrics be in shock for a 5,000-year-old human grave? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Sep 30 05:08:57 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 22:08:57 -0700 Subject: Emacs + devanagari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032856.23782.17959867610164600426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone happen to know whether there is an MS-DOS port of this latest GNU Emacs with Devanagari support? Thanks. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Mon Sep 29 21:38:37 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 22:38:37 +0100 Subject: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Message-ID: <161227032850.23782.11166923102071468347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >> Why should Eurocentrics be in shock for a 5,000-year-old >> human grave? > >Some think that the world began with them! Really? As far as I know, the world began long before any humans were there at all, and as for humans, they are generally believed to have originated in Africa, not in the West. I still fail to see the point. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Mon Sep 29 16:16:17 1997 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 01:16:17 +0900 Subject: Film, media Message-ID: <161227032839.23782.2316239356083109229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Dear Indology net, > > I would be grateful for bibliographic data on the topic > "film, the media" in South Asia. > The "Enclyclopedia" by Ashish Rajadhyaksha and Paul Willemen, already mentioned by somebody else, is undoubtedly the most comprehensive work, not only, but also because of the sound theoretical background of both writers (for Willemen's film theoretical essays, also relevant for his studies on Indian cinema, see his excellent "Looks & Frictions - Essays in Cultural Studies and Film Theory", London: British Film Institute, 1994). Willemen also co-edited a volume "Indian Cinema" with Behroze Gandhy (London: British Film Institute 1980). I have found Rajadhyaksha and Willemen particularly interesting, because they take popular cinema, often dismissed as a trashy and unworthy form of film, seriously and treat it as a relevant manifestation of Indian culture. The same goes for the psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar, who has written several short articles on Indian cinema, scattered throughout various festival catalogues, and who also draws on popular films for his generally very readable studies on the Indian psyche. In addition to that, I have found the volume "Les cinemas indiens" of the film journal CinemAction (compiled by Aruna Vasudev and Philippe Lenglet; Paris 1984: Editions du Cerf) to be quite useful. It contains a number of articles on such diverse subjects as the psychoanalysis of Indian cinema (Sudhir Kakar), music in popular Indian cinema (Sanjeev Prakash), the star-system (B.K. Karanjia), women in Indian cinema (Aruna Vasudev), the various regional cinemas etc. For visual pleasures, that is, stunning film-stills, I would recommend the catalogue for a retrospective of Indian cinema held at the Centre Georges Pompidou in Paris (Jean-Louis Passek: Les stars du cinema indien, 1985). For up-to-date information on recent films, there is the journal Cinemaya (published in New Delhi), which covers Asian cinema in general, or the slightly more off-beat Deep Focus (published in Bangalore). I used to keep track of publications on Indian cinema, but have been out of touch for the past three years, so if anybody knows of relevant material published after 1994, please post information. Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Sep 30 07:22:42 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 03:22:42 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis Message-ID: <161227032859.23782.11030367953542862429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have always wondered about the meaning of the Tamil word ?pArppan2ar? meaning ?brahmins?. Commonly, the word ?pAr? means ?to see?, and so the word ?pArppan2ar? can be translated as ?seers? (DED . But, we know of no use of ?pArppan2ar? to denote seers. It just meant brahmins. Even in the Sanskrit tradition, all brahmins were not seers. Nor were all seers brahmins. So what was the basis for the Tamil word ?pArppan2ar?? The clue was provided by my research on the Tamil root ?pA? meaning ?to extend, spread, stretch?. The semantics of the root ?pA? meaning ?extend, spread? and related words are really fascinating and they give some interesting insights into the Tamils?/Dravidians? view of things. There are several words in Tamil which can be translated as ?to see?. They are 'kaN/kAN, nOkku, pAr', etc. Tamil also uses nouns of the form ?pAr? derived from the root ?pA?. One such use denotes ?earth/world?, because it is an extended/spread place. The word ?pAr? can then be explained as indicating the fact that eye sight is the most extended sense of perception. We can see stars lightyears away. The distances over which we can perceive through other senses are much more limited. In other uses of the noun form, ?pAr? also means the axle of a vehicle presumably because it is an extended rod as well as the coral reefs under the sea which by their nature extend/spread. Another word with the meaning ?extend/spread? is ?para/paravu? (DED 3255), which, I strongly feel, is related to the root ?pA?. (I think the process is similar to tA-taru, and vA/varu.) In fact, conventionally ?pAr? (DED 3255), the earth, is explained on the basis of ?para?. Interestingly, ?paravu? with the basic meaning ?extend/spread? also denotes ?worship, reverence, adore, sing? (DED 3257). For instances puRanAn2URu 335.12 has ?nel ukuttup paravum kaTavuLum ilavE? which can be translated as ?there was no god to sing/worship along with the pouring/offering of paddy?. The use of ?paravu? in verbal worship is a known fact in Tamil. What has not been realized so far is the use of ?pAr? in the same context. This can be inferred from ?pAr? occurring as part of ?pArATTu? meaning ?to applaud, commend, eulogize? (DEDS 656). ?pArATTu? is a compound made up of ?pAr? and ?ATTu?. One of the meanings of ATTu is ?to shower, bathe, immerse?. This can be seen from the following. ????????..mazai mAtiram nan2antalai putaiyap pAay Ogkuvarai miLira ATTi?????. (naRRiNai 347.1-3) "The rain cloud having spread to cover the wide space in all directions and bathing/showering the tall mountain in such a way as to make the mountain fall over.." ?ATTu? as a noun meant ?bath? as seen in the following example. ATTu ayarntu aripaTum aivirai mANpakazi (paripATal 10.97) "having enjoyed the bath, the excellent arrows of five-fragrant flowers (i.e. the eyes of girls) with lines.. " ?ATTu? occurs as part of the compounds nIrATTu and neyyATTu as shown below. ..nIrATTi???= (nIr + ATTi) - having bathed in water ('nIr') (puRanAn2URu 329.3) ..neyyATTu?. = (ney +ATTu) - bathing (covered) in oil ('ney') (naRRiNai. 40.7) Thus ?ATTu? forms compounds with the first part of the compound denoting that which is the substance bathed in. This means the first part of the word ?pArATTu? ,i.e., ?pAr? must mean ?praise?, giving the compound meaning of ?to bathe in praise?or ?to extol?. The verb form ?pAr? is the same as the noun ?pAr?. The verb form of ?pAr? used in the sense of ?worshipping/praising? in a religious context is shown by the following text. "MaNikkural noccit teriyal cUTip palikaL Arkaip pArmutu kuyavan2 iTupali nuvalum akanRalai manRattu.." (naRRiNai 293.1-3) This can be translated as "in the wide common public space where with the worshipping/praising old potter with hands filled with sacrificial offerings who is wearing the garland made of bunches of blue-green nocci flowers, announcing/uttering the offerings". Some scholars translate ?pAr? in this context as ?obese? or ?corpulent?. They probably base it on a literal interpretation of pAr as ?spreading? . Taking into account the sacrificial context of the poem, the most logical alternative is to interpret it as referring to worshipping/adoring/singing nature of the potter. The next question is, is there any other evidence that a potter was customarily involved in religious ceremonies? Look at the following text. KaNNi kaTTiya katira an2n2a oNkural noccit teriyal cUTi yARu kiTantan2n2a akal neTun teruvil cARu en2a nuvalum mutuvAyk kuyava? (naRRiNai 200-1.4) "O potter with words of experience/ wisdom, wearing the garland of nocci made with bright bunches of buds like ears of grain, and announcing in the river-like street that it is festival time?." The role of the potter in announcing the festival implies that he performed some religious rituals. Further, the religious role of the potter is shown by another name for potter in Tamil, ?vETkOvar?. This is again a compound of ?vEL? and ?kOvar?. ?vEL? as a verb means ?to desire, sacrifice?. ?kOvar? means ?potters? with the combined meaning, ?the sacrificing potters?. Thus at least some potters were involved in performing sacrifices. Given the use of ?pAr? to denote the actions of the potter in naRRiNai 293 cited above, it is probable that a priest or a religious officiant was called ?pArppAn2? or ?one who worships by praising/singing?. But the word ?pArppAn2? in Classical Tamil may not always indicate a brahmin as it is usually interpreted until now. At least in some cases, we could think of ?pArppAn? as referring to non-brahmin priests. This result leads us to the conclusion that ?pAr? not only meant ?to see? but also ?to worship, adore, sing, praise?. This conclusion will provide a very logical explanation for the origin of the word ?pArppAr? for brahmins who as priests can be defined as ?those who worship, sing, adore? etc. However, they were not ?seers?. It was also probable that some of the priests were potters. Now the question is this. In a similar vein, on the Indo-Aryan side, is there any reason to attribute the origin of the Sanskrit word ?RSi? to the supposed ?seeing? of the hymn rather than ?singing? of the hymn? When a RSi such as KavaSa AilUSa is described as ?seeing? a hymn, could it be that he was ?singing? the hymn? Is it not interesting that the quintessential RSi, VasiSTha, and his brother Agastya are supposed to have originated in a pot? Do we have here a vestigial connection to the priestly tradition of the potters? Regards S. Palaniappan From J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU Mon Sep 29 23:30:01 1997 From: J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU (John Napier) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 09:30:01 +1000 Subject: Looking for an aussie Message-ID: <161227032854.23782.18136126769914744762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:36:08 +100, Royce Wiles writes: >Hi Lars > >>"Happy hours, discount drinks and irresponsible promotions such as laybacks >>were found to be a prime cause of violence in Australia." > >I've just showed two very Australian co-PhD students here in Canberra your >query, but neither of them has heard of "layback". Here are two >suggestions, unfortunately both involve text emendations :-) As a lifelong Australian, I also cannot recall ever hearing the expression 'layback': perhaps its because I've never frequented happy hours. A random guess would be that it refers to the habit of imbibing an alcoholic drink poured directly into the mouth by another person whilst one lies flat on ones back, but I didnt think that this was a characteristic Australian drinking game. Ah well, its seven and a half hours till happy hour at the Uni bar. John Napier From r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Tue Sep 30 06:43:25 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 09:43:25 +0300 Subject: Address needed Message-ID: <161227032861.23782.17656961652092852921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am looking for the address (and email address if available) of Ursula Rothen-Dubs. Thanks you for your help. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Tue Sep 30 14:02:34 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 10:02:34 -0400 Subject: TOC [Volume 1] and APPEAL: International Journal of Hindu Studies Message-ID: <161227032865.23782.2129876292006822696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CONTENTS VOLUME 1, 1997 ~ 640 pages Number 3 (December): ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ BOOK SYMPOSIUM ON ROBERT I. LEVY'S _MESOCOSM: THE ORGANIZATION OF A HINDU NEWAR CITY IN NEPAL_ Goddesses dancing in the city: Hinduism in an urban incarnation A review article ~ 441-85 Steven M. Parish, University of California, San Diego Sacred Space and the city: Greece and Bhaktapur ~ 486-500 Michael H. Jameson, Stanford University Macrocosm, mesocosm, and microcosm: The persistent nature of 'Hindu' beliefs and symbolical forms ~ 501-50 Michael Witzel, Harvard University Does symbolism 'construct an urban mesocosm'? Robert Levy's _Mesocosm_ and the question of value consensus in Bhaktapur ~ 551-75 David N. Gellner, Brunel University Kingship and 'contra-priests' ~ 576-91 Declan Quigley, Queen's University of Belfast Afterthoughts ~ 592-606 Robert I. Levy, Duke University BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES ~ 607-28 Number 2 (August): ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ARTICLES: When Rahu devours the moon: The myth of the birth of Krsna Caitanya ~ 221-64 Tony K. Stewart, North Carolina State University The yogi and the Goddess ~ 265-87 Nicholas F. Gier, University of Idaho Jaina ideology and early Mughal trade with Europeans ~ 288-313 Ellison Banks Findly, Trinity College Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part II of III: The imperative of the wish ~ 314-36 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado What's a God? The quest for the right understanding of devata in Brahmanical ritual theory (mimamsa) ~ 337-85 Francis X. Clooney, Boston College Radhakrishnan as advocate of the class/caste system as a universal religio-social system ~ 386-400 Robert N. Minor, University of Kansas Scandals, cover-ups, and other imagined occurences in the life of Ramakrsna: An examination of Jeffrey Kripal's _Kali's child_ ~ 401-20 Svami Atmajnanananda [birthname, Stuart Elkman], Ramakrsna Order BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES, ~ 421-40 Number 1 (April): ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ARTICLES: The center and circumference of silence: Yoga, poststructuralism, and the rhetoric of paradox ~ 3-18 George Kalamaras, Indiana Univeristy-Purdue University Imagining Ayodhya: Utopia and its shadows in a Hindu landscape ~ 19-54 Philip Lutgendorf, University of Iowa The power of space in a traditional Hindu city ~ 55-71 Robert I. Levy, Duke University Mountains of wisdom: On the interface between Siddha and Vidyadhara cults and the Siddha orders in Medieval India ~ 73-95 David Gordon White, University of California, Santa Barbara Temple rites and temple servants: Religion's role in the survival of Kerala's Kutiyattam drama tradition ~ 97-115 Bruce M. Sullivan, Northern Arizona University Bengali religious nationalism and communalism ~ 117-39 Peter Heehs, Aurobindo Ashram Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part I of III: The promise of a culture ~ 141-64 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado Advaita Vedanta and typologies of multiplicity and unity: An interpretation of nondual knowledge ~ 165-88 Joseph Milne, University of Kent BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES ~ 189-220 APPEAL Currently the International Institute of India Studies and World Heritage Press are engaged in a subscription drive on behalf of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. If you like what we are doing help us obtain new subscribers. Please encourage your colleagues and students and PLEASE GET YOUR LIBRARY to subscribe to _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. Every subscription counts!!! Many many thanks in advance. 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Visit our website at http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ Please send your order and inquiries to: World Heritage Press, Journals Divison, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Fax 514,771-2776 Tel 514,771-0213 ========================================================================== From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Tue Sep 30 11:10:53 1997 From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 13:10:53 +0200 Subject: Emacs + devanagari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032863.23782.11157790687387481766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey wrote: > Would anyone happen to know whether there is an MS-DOS port of this latest > GNU Emacs with Devanagari support? > Unfortunately, the multilingual support on Emacs 20 is available only on UNIX (and UNIX-like) platforms *with X Window*. This means, even on UNIX, Emacs on character terminal mode does not support multilingual processing. Toru Tomabechi University of Lausanne From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Sep 30 12:22:45 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 13:22:45 +0100 Subject: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970929130012.007ad100@flex.com> Message-ID: <161227032869.23782.4325712156711337965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote: > I have run across many Eurocentrics who refuse to realize that the world > existed before them and that others accomplished a lot in science before > them. Well, you are in the right forum here! Not a "Eurocentric" in sight. :-) All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 30 15:43:17 1997 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 16:43:17 +0100 Subject: a request for information and sources on theory (ies) of perception, causation and explaination Message-ID: <161227032867.23782.14582517547531528927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:40:16 +053+ Anil Gupta wrote: >>> Dear Friends I will be grateful for some help in understanding various theories explainaing the concept of perception, causality and explaination in Indian and Other Traditions in comparative sense. In Sankhya >>> I happen to have a few books on my desks: specifically on the problem of perception one may start with B.K. Matilal, Perception: An Essay on Classical Indian Theories of Knowledge, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1986. The problems of causality and explanation are basic to the entire South Asian philosophical tradition. One may start with Karl Potter, Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, vol. 2, The tradition of Nyaaya-Vaisesika up to Gangesa, Delhi 1977, perhaps continue with vol. 6 by Karl Potter and Sibajiban Bhattacharya, Delhi 1993, Indian Philosophical Analysis: Nyaaya-Vaisesika from Gangesa to Raghunaatha Siromani. Both volumes have an elaborate introduction, and although the comparative perspective is not prominent it is always there at the background. On Saamkhya: vol. 4 in the same Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, by Gerald James Larson and Ram Shankar Bhattacharya, Delhi 1987. Each volume abounds in bibliographical references, details of which are found in vol. 1 of the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, Bibliography (recently, the third updated edition has appeared).