From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Oct 1 01:28:51 1997 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (F. Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 20:28:51 -0500 Subject: A few questions - kavirAjamArga In-Reply-To: <19970929171653.19041.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227032871.23782.5122215280171502244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sheldon Pollock, Prof. of Skt. at the University of Chicago, is presently preparing a translation of the kavirAjamArga. In fact, I believe he is virtually done with it. So you should contact him about it. I do not believe he frequents listservs, so he is probably not aware of your questions. Fred Smith Univ. of Iowa From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Oct 1 14:20:12 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 08:20:12 -0600 Subject: Few questions (vEL pAri) Message-ID: <161227032878.23782.14744906598568042688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 9/30/97 Re: Few Questions ******************* I thought the word maTTam in maTTakkaLappu denotes "flat/of the same level". Is the town, maTTakkaLappu (Batticola) in plain fields? May be, Prof. A. Veluppillai can tell us. Regards, N. Ganesan >>Once AthisEshan and vAyu bahavAn wanted to test who the strongest; Then, >>AthisEshan wrapped the mERu mountain by his body, and by his force vAyu >>hurled three pieces; one is tirukkONamalai (aka tadshaNakailAyam), the other >>two are thiruvaNNAmalai and thiruvAnaikkA (not sure of the third). > Actually, Thiru KodungunRam @ PaRambu Malai of Pari VEL: is > one of the places that claim to have this sort of origin, i.e., > the contest of strength betweem Aadi SEshan and Vaayu. > This story is found in the sthalapuraanam called "ThirukkodungunRa > Maanmiyam". > That is why it is also called "PrachaNda Giri" and "ChaNdaadri". > Vaayu is also known as ChaNda and PrachaNda. > There is an inscription which is in part Sanskrit, belonging to > Jatavarman Sundara Paandiya ThEvar (1257 A.D.). It starts "Samastha > jagadh aadhaara sOma kula thilaka etc". It mentions that the > Paandiyan Emperor built a lofty tower which stopped the sun > and the moon on their tracks. This tower, he built for the temple > dedicated to "Chandaadhri Pathi" which is one of the names > for the Lord Mangai Baagar of the temple. > At present, the place is called Piranmalai and is situated in the > Sivagangai District of Tamilnadu. In tamizt talapurANam genre, it is not unusual to find the same legend being repeated for a few places. The same story is told for atleast 5 or 6 hill temples. vEL pAri ******** I have read that the attribution of paRampu malai to KodunkunRam is wrong. Tevaram saints don't call the Siva there as "paariiccurattaanE". They always call the hill as KondungkunRam. (Steep hill?) and not as paRampu malai at all. That region is very arid and dry. It does not fit the descriptions found in Sangam literature. It is piraan malai, the hill of Sivaperumaan. There is a saying that none can beat the poems of Kapilar, a good friend of vEL Paari, in extolling Nature, the forests of mountains. May be because Kapilar knows well the tropical forests of Pari. (karutum kuRinji kapilar) puRam 109 song starting as "aLitO taanE pAriyatu paRampE", says "vaan kaNaRRavan malaiyE, vaanattu mInkaNaRRavan cunaiyE" The hills must be high, acc. to the above song. puRam 105 says that Pari's hills have many waterfalls, even when rains fail for years together. There are bamboo thickets, sandalwood forests etc., "pAri paRampil paniccuvait taNNIr" kuRum. 196 "kaivaN pAri tImperum painjcunai" akam. 78 "pEricai uRumoTu mAri muRRiya palkuTaik kaLLin vaNmakiz pAri palavuRu kunRam" naRRiNai 253 Ramnad district is a dry place unfit for the above expressions. Kapilar has sung paRampu, kolli, muLLUrk kaanam, all nearby places. There is a small town, Paariyuur near Sathyamangalam. The tropical forests of the region Gobichetti Palayam, Bannari and Sathyamangalam fit the description of sangam poets very well. Additionally, we have Paariyuur too. The mountains go upto 4000 feet! So, many say that this is the paRampu hills. On the other hand, there are two 13th century inscriptions saying the region near Piranmalai is "tenpaRampa n^aaTu". They have to be studied carefully. There is Atiyarkku Nallar commentary claiming TiruccengOTu as the place where Kannaki spent her last days. On the contrary, it looks a hill in the Theni, Kambam area has been proved to be Kannaki's temple. It may be like this. Seems like, despite the early 20th century writings of Sriman M. Raghavaiyangar in his book vELir varalaaRu, paRampu malai of Paari is at the intersection of Karnataka & Tamil Naadu, rather than Piranmalai. Can Dr. Jayabarathi tell me some references which claim Pari lived in Piranmalai? Regards, N. Ganesan ganesans at uhcl2.cl.uh.edu From martinez at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Wed Oct 1 10:02:14 1997 From: martinez at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Javier Martinez Garcia) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 11:02:14 +0100 Subject: Confs. 6. Int. Conf. - Use of Computers in Historical and Comparative Linguistics Message-ID: <161227032873.23782.133410452962448820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message has been sent to several Lists . Apologies for cross-postings! ------------------------------ 6. International Conference about the Use of Computers in Historical and Comparative Linguistics Frankfurt a.M., 21.?24. October 1997 2nd circular This is the second circular concerning the 6. International Conference about the Use of Computers in Historical and Comparative Linguistics. It is being distributed to all those who have registered for participation and contains: I. The preliminary conference programme II. A preliminary list of participants III. Information materials about Frankfurt The materials as enclosed here can also be found under the following internet address (URL): http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/curric/frankf-97b.html We look forward to meet you in Frankfurt! J. Gippert F.J. Mart?nez Garc?a Preliminary Conference Programme Di. 21.10 10:00 Begr??ung 10:30 Josef Wallmannsberger -- Corpora travelling on a shoestring: The ?arte povera? of CD-Romance -- 11:30 Cirilo Garc?a Rom?n -- La elaboraci?n electr?nica de ?ndices y concordancias de textos biling?es: soluciones pr?cticas a problemas t?cnicos. 12:00 Fco. Javier Mart?nez Garc?a -- ?? -- Mittagspause -- 14:30 Eva Maria Lill -- The future user of a dictionary - will he be better informed than ever? The use of machine readable full texts and electronic facsimiles in the making of the 'Deutsches Rechtsw?rterbuch' 15:00 Klaus B?rger -- Flexionsmorphologie der deutschen Verben der Gegenwartssprache. Entwicklung einer Datenbank im Rahmen der Nat?rlichkeitstheorie. 16:00 16:30 Mi. 22.10 10:00 Daniel Ria?o Rufilanchas -- An?lisis y etiquetado sint?ctico del corpus de los textos cl?sicos. Perspectivas y modelos. 10:30 Jos? Antonio Berenguer S?nchez -- Greek Lexicography & Indoeuropean Lexicography and Internet -- 11:30 Arash Zeini -- Ein Digitales Iranisches W?rterbuch 12:00 Jes?s-Luis Cunchillos Ilarri -- El Analizador Morfol?gico Ugar?tico -- AUSFLUG -- Do. 23.10 10:00 Istv?n. S. B?tori -- Das Projekt UEDB 10:30 Hansje Braam -- CALC Project (Central Asian Languages Corpora) -- 11:30 Makasa Kasonde -- Computers and Didactics: Preparation and Dissemination of Teaching Materials: The Case of Comparative Bantu. 12:00 Harald Vajkonny -- From text to dictionary: Computer-aided research on minority languages -- Mittagspause -- 14:30 Jost Gippert -- Multilingual Text Retrievel: Requirements ans Solutions. 15:00-17:30 Workshop: Full text retrieval -- WordCruncher Fr. 24.10 10:00 Johann Tischler -- Dresdner Aktivit?ten. Bericht ?ber laufende Projekte. 10:30 Petr Zem?nek -- ?? -- 11:30 Petr Vavrou?ek -- Digitalisierung von Keilschrifttafeln 12:00 Svetlana Vyvenko -- Vernetzungsarten in einem etymologischen Hypernetz -- Mittagspause -- 14:30-17:30 Workshop: UNICODE Bureau/Contacting Address: Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Georg?Voigt?Str. 6 Postfach 11 19 32 D?60054 Frankfurt. Tel: +49?69?7982 3139 Fax: +49?69?7982 2873 email: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de WWW: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de -- Dr. Fco. Javier Mart?nez Garc?a ~ Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Frankfurt ~ Postfach 11 19 32 ~ D-60054 Frankfurt tel. +49- 69- 7982-2847; (sekr.) -3139 ~ fax. +49- 69- 7982-2873 From jai at FLEX.COM Wed Oct 1 21:51:42 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 11:51:42 -1000 Subject: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Message-ID: <161227032889.23782.2008192224660854452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste! Rolf Heinrich Koch asked: > There must probably be a reason why Europeans always translate > the Sanskrittexts. I do not know the reason. Do you? >To get to be a rich man is doubtlessly not the right reason. You >agree? Those are interesting questions. One subconscious reason can be that they do not wish the use of Sanskrit to spread. Another can be that they wish to put their own spin on the sense and meaning -- due to whatever motivation. I know a world history professor here at the University of Hawaii who tells me that if he removes non-Christian (not anti-Christian) slant from certain ideas that he teaches he could lose his job. There are other examples. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From jai at FLEX.COM Wed Oct 1 23:44:16 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 13:44:16 -1000 Subject: LIBEL COMMITTED BY Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic Message-ID: <161227032893.23782.9703662056360006271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 12:51 PM > Subject: Re: AW: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old > > It is well know that Jai Maharaj is . . . [...] > Aditya Mishra > e-mail:a018967t at bc.seflin.org By publishing defamation, Aditya Mishra has demonstrated his malicious intent. One prays for his reform. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH Wed Oct 1 11:28:52 1997 From: ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH (Ramkumar) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 14:28:52 +0300 Subject: The Bhagavad Gita site Message-ID: <161227032876.23782.15624448892393463067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have set up a comprehensive site on "The Bhagavad Gita", with discourses, links and a unique FAQ. Some of the matter that is available in this page is from postings made in this group. There is also a new "Sloka a Day" in real audio and text format, which will be available on this site starting Today. I request the members to go through the site and give us any suggestions/ comments or inputs. Thanks Sowmya _____________________________________________________________________________ Sowmya Ramkumar The Bhagavad Gita site http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ email: Soms at geocities.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Oct 1 18:46:17 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 14:46:17 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227032882.23782.3066666508152110566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frits Staal says the following in page 138 of Part I of "AGNI: The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar": "....Thus the theory of Kosambi (1950), criticized in Brough (1953, xiv-xvi), that the Vedic brahmins were to a large extent recruited from the priest class of the conquered pre-Aryan population, would seem to be valid at least in the case of the AGgirases. In conclusion, available evidence suggests that the altar construction of the Agnicayana, and also the ukhA and mahAvIra pots--chief ritual vessels of the Agnicayana and Pravargya, respectively-- are of pre-Vedic origin, and should be explained by the techniques for firing bricks and pots that were known to the indigenous population, and that can ultimately be traced back to the Indus Civilization. Within a wider context, this is not surprising. The use of baked bricks, though not confined to the Indus Civilization, was one of its characteristic achievements. Baked bricks were used in Sumer, though not abundantly. In Mohenjo-daro and HarappA, the use of baked bricks, rather than mud of mud bricks, was normal (Wheeler 1968, 8, 55). Whatever the explanation of its early distribution, it is likely that the art of firing bricks was retained by the inhabitants of Northwest India even after the great Indus cities had disappeared." Given the fact Classical Tamil texts show that Dravidian potters acted also as sacrificial priests, it is possible that some members of this group could have been incorporated into Aryan community from very early times. In that case, one can see how the transfer of indigenous pottery technology to articles forming part of the Aryan ritual could have easily occurred. Does this theory sound reasonable to the Vedic scholars on this list? Regards S. Palaniappan From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Wed Oct 1 19:00:38 1997 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 15:00:38 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) In-Reply-To: <971001144421_1991263651@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032884.23782.15561312223842984261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although not examining the south Indian material from the angle of possible pre-Vedic origins, Madeleine Biardeau's "Bra^hmanes combattantes dans un mythe du sud de l'Inde," Adyar Library Bulletin, Drr. V. Raghavan Felicitation Volume 31-32 (1967-68) is relevant to the subject as titled above. Alf Hiltebeitel From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 1 16:15:24 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 17:15:24 +0100 Subject: DK Agencies website Message-ID: <161227032880.23782.12483696162572971635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have added a link to the D. K. Agencies website (INDOLOGY web page, under Publishers). DK is now offering a booksearch service, so you can interactively look up books from their stock. Searching is possible by author, title, isbn, etc., and by many subject categories (which may be the most interesting to many). Mr Ramesh Mittal met me recently in London, and told me that his company is looking closely at the famous Amazon.com site, and is considering introducing a service whereby people can request to be automatically emailed when a new book is published that meets certain criteria (author, subject, etc.). All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Wed Oct 1 22:35:04 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 22:35:04 +0000 Subject: AW: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Message-ID: <161227032888.23782.5002642570783289687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There must probably be a reason why Europeans always translate the Sanskrittexts. I do not know the reason. Do you? To get to be a rich man is doubtlessly not the right reason. You agree? -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dr. Jai Maharaj Gesendet am: Dienstag, 30. September 1997 00:00 An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Betreff: Re: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old Namaste! Lars Martin Fosse commented: > "Dr. Jai Maharaj" explained: >> Lars Martin Fosse asked: >>>> Sympathies to Eurocentrics in shock :) :) :) >>> >>> Why should Eurocentrics be in shock for a 5,000-year-old >>> human grave? > >> Some think that the world began with them! > > Really? As far as I know, the world began long before any > humans were there at all, and as for humans, they are > generally believed to have originated in Africa, not in > the West. > I still fail to see the point. Perhaps because the smilies were deleted. They are now restored (see above). I have run across many Eurocentrics who refuse to realize that the world existed before them and that others accomplished a lot in science before them. Some of these jokers even teach in universities, misinforming others. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From aditya at SMART1.NET Wed Oct 1 22:43:23 1997 From: aditya at SMART1.NET (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 22:43:23 +0000 Subject: AW: Grave Found, Possibly 5,000 Years Old In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032891.23782.3750095042828901811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rolf Heinrich Koch has on Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:35:04 UT written as follows: >There must probably be a reason why Europeans always translate the >Sanskrittexts. I do not know the reason. Do you? >To get to be a rich man is doubtlessly not the right reason. You agree? It is well know that Jai Maharaj is notorious on the internet for posting irrelevant messages to most newsgroups and I was going to ignore him but due to the amount of response I would like to make a guess. I remember reading some book that discussed how Hitler and Nazi party got the idea of Aryan supremacy since the only other group that call themselves aryans are the Hindus of India. I do not have the reference but it was claimed that after WWI and the heavy reparations burden Germans had lost their moorings and the best scholars of the time resorted to studies in the obscure languages which did not require much funding. Their studies became popular with the masses since it helped them forget the inflation and worries of the third reich just as Hindus to this day keep talking of their past to forget their present. -- Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra e-mail:a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: A diploma proves only that you know how to find an answer. From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Oct 1 21:35:49 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 23:35:49 +0200 Subject: IITS-Tamil Books Message-ID: <161227032886.23782.15820064229585944355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, sorry to use the list for a message to Mr. Ganesan. I tried to send the mail to him personally but it seems I got the wrong address. > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... while talking to uhcl2.cl.uh.edu.: >>>> RCPT To: ><<< 553 unknown or illegal user: ganesan at cl.uh.edu >550 ... User unknown > > ----- Original message follows ----- >Namaskar Ganesanji, >the books arrived on 28th September. Everything's fine. >Thank you >Yours > >Tobias >********PLEASE,NOTE: CHANGE OF ADDRESS!!*************************** >Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg >Duerenerstr. 272, 50935 Koeln, Germany >Fon: 0049-221-4302193 >e-mail: grotebev at uni-koeln.de >http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/dig/index.html >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > //OM/ > SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/ > SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/ > SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/ > MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/ > OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI// >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Tobias ********PLEASE,NOTE: CHANGE OF ADDRESS!!*************************** Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg Duerenerstr. 272, 50935 Koeln, Germany Fon: 0049-221-4302193 e-mail: grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/dig/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ //OM/ SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/ SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/ SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/ MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/ OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Oct 1 22:11:50 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 00:11:50 +0200 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) In-Reply-To: <971001144421_1991263651@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032902.23782.10109882416660801476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:46 +0200 1/10/97, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >Does this theory sound reasonable to the Vedic scholars on this list? reasonable, yes. But backed bricks are too common if you have a lot of wood and workers. That can't be a proof. Informations on similar shapes would be better. Do are bricks' birds in Sumer or Indus Valley ? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Oct 2 06:29:26 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 02:29:26 -0400 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 Message-ID: <161227032900.23782.17051681825254181826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have come across two interesting verses in chAndogya upaniSad. 1.1.8 states: "tad vA etad anujJAkSram, yaddhi kim cAnujAnAty aum ity eva tad Aha;.....". S. Radhakrishnan translates this as "Verily, this syllable is of assent, for whenever one assents to anything he says simply 'aum'.....". It is interesting that in Tamil we have "Am" (DEDR 333) which is an interjection of agreeing. In Sri Lankan Tamil dialect, it becomes "Om". DEDR compares this with Sanskrit "Am" meaning "yes", and Pali Pkt. "Ama", etc. It also lists an entry in Comparative Dictionary of Indian Languages (1235) and an article by Parpola in ABORI vol.58-59 (1977-78) pp.251-52. Does anybody know what the current scholarly consensus on the etymology of "aum" is? Verse 8.3.5 says, "tAni ha vA etAni trINy akSarANi sat-ti-yam iti; tad yat sat tad amRtam, atha yat ti tan martyam, atha yad yaM tenobhe yacchati yad anenobhe yacchati tasmAd yam, ahar ahar vA evaM vit svargaM lokam eti." Radhakrishnan translates this as "Verily, these are the three syllables sat, ti, yam. The sat, that is the immortal. The ti, that is the mortal. The yam, with it one holds the two together. Because with it one holds the two together therefore it is yam. He who knows this goes day by day into the heavenly world." I was very surprised by the use of the form "sattiyam" to etymologize the word "satya". In Tamil, Sanskrit "satya" becomes "cattiyam" which is often pronounced as "sattiyam". If a modern Tamil speaker who is not aware of the Sanskrit source, is asked to etymologize the word, he will probably start with the same form. brhadAraNyaka upaniSad 5.5.1 uses "sa-ti-yam", a very similar form. Does the use of these Prakritized or Dravidianized forms to etymologize Sanskrit words imply that the authors' own mother tongue was Prakritic or that the Prakritic forms were very current or acceptable in UpaniSadic times? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 2 03:58:52 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 04:58:52 +0100 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) In-Reply-To: <971001144421_1991263651@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032895.23782.17925861336145459585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:46 PM 10/1/97 -0400, S.Palaniyappa wrote: >Given the fact Classical Tamil texts show that Dravidian potters acted also >as sacrificial priests, it is possible that some members of this group could >have been incorporated into Aryan community from very early times. In that >case, one can see how the transfer of indigenous pottery technology to >articles forming part of the Aryan ritual could have easily occurred. > >Does this theory sound reasonable to the Vedic scholars on this list? > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > In our region (Andhra) I heard that the person who actually kills the sacrificial animal (by suffocation) in the Yajnas is a potter. sarma. From mitra at AECOM.YU.EDU Thu Oct 2 12:37:29 1997 From: mitra at AECOM.YU.EDU (Joydeep Mitra) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 08:37:29 -0400 Subject: What calendar was used in the Indus Valley civilization & when? In-Reply-To: <199710021234.IAA27887@post.aecom.yu.edu> Message-ID: <161227032905.23782.4345600821429376081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What calendar was used in the Indus Valley civilization & when? From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 2 08:29:14 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 09:29:14 +0100 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: <971002022925_997927365@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032904.23782.7081375154076051530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:29 AM 10/2/97 -0400, S.Palaniappan writes: >Verse 8.3.5 says, "tAni ha vA etAni trINy akSarANi sat-ti-yam iti; tad yat >sat tad amRtam, atha yat ti tan martyam, atha yad yaM tenobhe yacchati yad >anenobhe yacchati tasmAd yam, ahar ahar vA evaM vit svargaM lokam eti." >Radhakrishnan translates this as "Verily, these are the three syllables sat, >ti, yam. The sat, that is the immortal. The ti, that is the mortal. The yam, >with it one holds the two together. Because with it one holds the two >together therefore it is yam. He who knows this goes day by day into the >heavenly world." > >I was very surprised by the use of the form "sattiyam" to etymologize the >word "satya". In Tamil, Sanskrit "satya" becomes "cattiyam" which is often >pronounced as "sattiyam". If a modern Tamil speaker who is not aware of the >Sanskrit source, is asked to etymologize the word, he will probably start >with the same form. brhadAraNyaka upaniSad 5.5.1 uses "sa-ti-yam", a very >similar form. Does the use of these Prakritized or Dravidianized forms to >etymologize Sanskrit words imply that the authors' own mother tongue was >Prakritic or that the Prakritic forms were very current or acceptable in >UpaniSadic times? Thanks in advance. > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > In the Gita Press edition of Chandogya Upanishad the text is given as "tAni ha vA EtAni trINyakSarANi satIyamiti...." Sankara comments "...trINyEtani satIyamiti sakArastakArO yamiticha. IkArastakAra uchchA- raNArthO~nubandhah. hrasvEnaivAkSarENa punah pratinirdEzAt." I am not able to locate the form sattiyam. Can you please be more specific about the location. From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Oct 2 14:19:57 1997 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (John A Grimes) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 10:19:57 -0400 Subject: trickster/shaman Message-ID: <161227032909.23782.15357594202214479607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good morning, Would someone be able to send me to the appropriate sourcebook(s) for a distinction made between a person who attempts to remove the mystery or approach the mystery vis a vis: 1) bowing to the mystery/worshipping it = shaman/priest 2) overcoming the mystery by a frontal attack through one's own powers = trickster/hero Also, are there other paradigms presented as viable solutions? I recall Ninian Smart making the above distinciton but I can't find it now. Was Van der Leeuw the first to make this distinction? Thank you for any help you may provide. John Grimes MSU From sjohar at HKUCC.HKU.HK Thu Oct 2 04:02:13 1997 From: sjohar at HKUCC.HKU.HK (Sugandha Johar) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 12:02:13 +0800 Subject: Philology Message-ID: <161227032898.23782.8664701250226232246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I hope some of the Sanskrit scholars on this list will be able to help me. I am not a sanskritist, and as such was intrigued by the picture put forth by N.S.Rajaram in his book "The politics of history". Has anyone read this book. What is the opinion about the scholarly rigour of the author of this book, or rather the book itself Sugandha Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\smime13.p7s" From sjohar at HKUCC.HKU.HK Thu Oct 2 04:02:27 1997 From: sjohar at HKUCC.HKU.HK (Sugandha Johar) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 12:02:27 +0800 Subject: Philology Message-ID: <161227032897.23782.4137446915957518894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I hope some of the Sanskrit scholars on this list will be able to help me. I am not a sanskritist, and as such was intrigued by the picture put forth by N.S.Rajaram in his book "The politics of history". Has anyone read this book. What is the opinion about the scholarly rigour of the author of this book, or rather the book itself Sugandha From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Thu Oct 2 19:04:43 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 12:04:43 -0700 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971002135700.28b735b0@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227032911.23782.17558002595309812054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: [..] > > "tAni ha vA EtAni trINyakSarANi satIyamiti...." > > Sankara comments > > "...trINyEtani satIyamiti sakArastakArO yamiticha. IkArastakAra uchchA- > raNArthO~nubandhah. hrasvEnaivAkSarENa punah pratinirdEzAt." > > I am not able to locate the form sattiyam. Can you > please be more specific about the location. > The form sa(t)tiyam is not denied by the commentary - The i-sound is an anubandha for pronouncing (uccAraNArtham) the t-sound. If you take into account that the vedic tradition puts great store by oral transmission, this is significant. Another important instance where an i-sound needs to be added is in the famous gAyatrI mantra - tat savitur vareN(i)yam. You cannot count 8 syllables in this line without the i-kAra. As for Palaniappa's question, it is important to remember that the language of the upanishads, especially chAndogya and brhadAraNyaka, is much older than classical Sanskrit. It is not bound by Paninian rules. Compared to the vedas and these upanishads, classical Sanskrit is a much more recent development. Secondly, the upanishads give a number of supposedly etymological explanations, which are really designed to teach a philosophical/doctrinal lesson. In this example of sat-ti-yam, the goal is to talk of the mortal and the immortal. The mUrta-amUrta brAhmaNa of the brhadAraNyaka gives another explanation for the word satya, in terms of sat and tyad, without introducing the i-kAra. Elsewhere, the same upanishad does introduce the i-kAra. So, analyzing such upanishadic constructions in terms of the later forms in Sanskrit and Prakrit may not be very sound, either chronologically or philologically. Vidyasankar From kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Oct 2 19:52:24 1997 From: kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: Seminar Paper and its abstract In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032912.23782.9630762275885771177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, The paper "What India Has Done Right since Independence", and its abstract by Prof. Robert King given at the South Asian Seminar, Asian Studies, UT Austin, are posted at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/whatIndabs.html and http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/whatIndabs.html Thanks. Kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Thu Oct 2 13:36:10 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 15:36:10 +0200 Subject: IITS-Homepage Message-ID: <161227032907.23782.2090408827200072356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar! The IITS - Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies, University of Cologne, Germany - proudly presents its newly designed webpage. By using FRAMES (NOFRAMES-version available) surfing the site has become a lot esier and quicker. The site is updated regulary and new and improved features are to follow. Enjoy your surf at: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.e.html Yours Tobias ********PLEASE,NOTE: CHANGE OF ADDRESS!!*************************** Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg Duerenerstr. 272, 50935 Koeln, Germany Fon: 0049-221-4302193 e-mail: grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/dig/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ //OM/ SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/ SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/ SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/ MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/ OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Oct 2 22:10:11 1997 From: kamal at LINK.LANIC.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 17:10:11 -0500 Subject: Seminar Paper and its abstract In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032914.23782.4876553181930307599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When I posted the URLs earlier, I mistakenly posted the same address twice. I am sorry about it. The correct URL for the paper is: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/whatIndright.html And if some of you are interested to browse other papers given at the South Asia Seminar, Asian Studies, you can do so at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/SAseminar97Fall.html Thanks. Kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 3 03:18:41 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 23:18:41 -0400 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 Message-ID: <161227032919.23782.9186630614250506236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-02 18:52:33 EDT, narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << The form `satIyam' is given in the Upanishad. Sankara accepts the form `satiyam'. I do not think the form `sattiyam' is accepted. >> "The Principal UpaniSads" Edited with Introduction, Text, Translation and Notes by S. Radhakrishnan published by Humanities Press 1992 edition of the original 1953 edition published by George Allen & Unwin, Ltd., has the form 'sattiyam'. He says, "For the classical UpaniSads the text followed is that commented by ZaMkara. A multitude of variant readings of the texts exist, some of them to be found in the famous commentaries, others in more out of the way versions." "The UpaniSads" translated by Max Muller has the following version, "This name Sattyam consists of three syllables, sat-tI-yam*. Sat signifies the immortal, t, the mortal, and with yam he binds both...." In the footnote for sat-tI-yam, he says, "We ought probably to read Sattyam, and then Sat-tI-yam. The I in tI would then be the dual of an anubandha i..". Muller says that he has "endeavoured throughout to follow that text which is presupposed by the commentaries, whether they are the works of the old ZankarAcArya, or the more modern ZankarAnanda, or SAyaNa, or others." Regards S. Palaniappan From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 2 22:51:30 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 23:51:30 +0100 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032917.23782.6387014199740603540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:04 PM 10/2/97 -0700, Vidyasankar Sunderesan wrote: >The form sa(t)tiyam is not denied by the commentary - The i-sound is an >anubandha for pronouncing (uccAraNArtham) the t-sound. The form `satIyam' is given in the Upanishad. Sankara accepts the form `satiyam'. I do not think the form `sattiyam' is accepted. sarma. From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Fri Oct 3 08:10:41 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 03:10:41 -0500 Subject: Few questions (vEL pAri) by N.Ganesan dated 1/10/97 Message-ID: <161227032925.23782.4099838794313049738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:18 AM 10/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >About the derivation of MaTTakkaLappu( Batticaloa in English in Ilankai) - >whether it could be a town in plain fields -the problem needs a long >exposition. >What I mentioned earlier is the explanation, recorded in the MaTTakkaLappu >MAnmiyam (M.M). Some people now guess that it could be connected to maTTi >oyster, found in abundance in the Lagoon. There are people, explaining like >Ganesan, the origin of this word. But it is not the city that has given the >name to the district. >MaTTakkaLappu is now the name of a city as well as a district in Sri Lanka >from 1960's. Upto that time, AmpARai district to the south and the >south-west of Batticaloa, also formed part of MaTTakkaLappu district. >The history of Batticaloa begins in the Tamil villages of the present day >AmpArai district. Not merely M.M, but even inscriptions, both in stone and >copper, deal with matters in villages in the present AmpARai district. >KaNNaki ( Patni) worship is very popular among the Tamil Hindus throughout >the two districts and recorded traditions about the worship speak of the >worship, spreading from the Tamil villages in the present AmpARai district >to the Tamil villages in the present truncated Batticaloa district. >The first Professor of Tamil in any university in the world - Swami >VipulAnaNdA - in ANNAMalai University from 1930 -hailed from KAraitIvu, a >Tamil village in the present AmpARai district. >At the time of Independence in 1948, the Tamils and the Tamil speaking >Muslims constituted 90% of the population of the Batticaloa district. There >has been massive Sinhala colonization in AmpARai district and the latest >population ratio seem to be 41% Sinhala : 40 % Tamil speaking Muslim : 19 % >Tamil in what was originally MaTTakkaLappu. >The city, located at the point where the sea enters the lagoon, owes its >creation to the Portuguese in early 17th century, who established a >fortified trading post there. Its earlier name was PuLiyankuLam. >Paddy fields abound in both districts -the economic base of the region. >Regards, >A.Veluppillai > echoed. Ramani From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Fri Oct 3 08:15:51 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 03:15:51 -0500 Subject: Few questions (vEL pAri) by N.Ganesan dated 1/10/97 Message-ID: <161227032927.23782.188957063627116923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:18 AM 10/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >The city, located at the point where the sea enters the lagoon, owes its >creation to the Portuguese in early 17th century, who established a >fortified trading post there. Its earlier name was PuLiyankuLam. >Paddy fields abound in both districts -the economic base of the region. >Regards, >A.Veluppillai > A simple correction; I think it is not PuLiyankuLam, PuLiyan-theevu. rgds, Ramani From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Oct 3 14:04:25 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 09:04:25 -0500 Subject: Few Questions (Vipulanandar) Message-ID: <161227032931.23782.10177182948899801248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A historical note: ******************* Swami Vipulananda (1892-1947) was a saint, engineer, musicologist, translator, poet and educator. He was well versed not only in Tamil and English but also in Sanskrit, Sinhalese, Bengali and to some extent in Latin. Chidbhavananda and Vipulananda took training in Vedanta and Samnyaasam under Dr. Sivananda, a direct disciple of Swami Vivekananda. Chidbhavananda, a relative of my mother, and Vipulananda were good friends throughout. He was appointed as the first Tamil professor of Annamalai University (1927-1935) He quit his job in 1935 to do research in ancient Tamil music and harp (yaazh). He did most of his work in the peace and serenity of Himalayas where he took up an invited editorial job of a RK mission publication, Prabhutta Bharatha. He translated Tagore's Gardener into Tamil and Bharatiyar used this story in his "Kannan, En vElaikkaaran" song. He wanted to publish a book on Technical Tamil (He had chaired a committee to coin technical words during Rajaji's term as Chief Minister). The following few lines of Adigal's poem engraved on his cemetery located in Sivanantha Alayam, Batticaloa talk about this simple and great man. veLLai niRa malligaiyO? vERentha maamalarO? vaLLal aDi iNaikku vaayththa malar ethuvO? veLLai niRap poovum alla; vERu entha malarum alla; uLLak kamalam aDi - uththamanaar vENduvathu! There has been too much suffering for too long there. Praying for Peace in the land of Vipulanandar's birth, N. Ganesan ganesans at cl.uh.edu From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Fri Oct 3 07:45:38 1997 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 09:45:38 +0200 Subject: A few questions by Krishna Message-ID: <161227032921.23782.12834475088354706247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 10:11 AM 9/29/97 +0100, you wrote: >>2. The Tamil name for Batticaloa is MaTTakkaLappu. The word kaLappu is >>given in the Tamil Lexicon as meaning shallow part of the sea. The name of >>the region is said to come from a huge vAvi or tank, within Batticaloa, >>connected to the sea. According to the MaTTakkaLappu MAnmiyam, a legendary >>chronicle, the original settlers, who entered the tank, noticed, after >>sailing a long distance, that they had reached the shores, shouted that >>they had reached the end of kaLappu, maTTu having the meanings of limit, >>boundary, also. kiLappu is a colloquial form. >> It may be added, for completness' sake, that in Sinhala Batticaloa stands for MaDakalappuva, which can be segmented into maDa, meaning 'mud, mire' and kalapuva, meaning 'a lake which communicates with the sea'. Therefore the whole name stands for 'muddy lagoon'. Regards, Filipsky Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 phone 004202 6605 3729 e-mail or private: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 - Troja phone 004202 855 74 53 From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Fri Oct 3 15:00:22 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 10:00:22 -0500 Subject: Few Questions (Vipulanandar) Message-ID: <161227032934.23782.17208008797547463943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If what I mention here had already pointed out, pardon me for repeating again. At 09:04 AM 10/3/97 -0500, Dr.N.Genesan wrote: >A historical note: >******************* > > Swami Vipulananda (1892-1947) was a >saint, engineer, musicologist, translator, poet and >educator. He was well versed not only in Tamil and English >but also in Sanskrit, Sinhalese, Bengali and to some extent in Latin. Mayilvaakanan was his name before joining RK mission. (Father sAmiththampi & mother KaNNammai). > He was appointed as the first >Tamil professor of Annamalai University (1927-1935) >He quit his job in 1935 to do research in ancient >Tamil music and harp (yaazh). It was the masterwork of his life; He redesigned (or 're-invented') yaazh from the information given in the ancient tamil literature and wrote 'yaazh nool' (The book on Harp). >He did most of his >work in the peace and serenity of Himalayas where >he took up an invited editorial job of a RK mission >publication, Prabhutta Bharatha. Under that service he was the first pricipal of my Alma Mater, R.K.M. Hindu College, Trincomalee; He was the first Tamil Professor in (my other Alma Mater,) University of Peradeniya, Sri Lanka too as far as I was told. He did a great job in establishing RK schools in Ezham (in addition to my Alma Mater, Sivananda Vidyalayam, Batticoloa, Akkaraippaththu R.K.M. Hindu College) > >He translated Tagore's Gardener into Tamil >and Bharatiyar used this story in his >"Kannan, En vElaikkaaran" song. > >He wanted to publish a book on Technical >Tamil (He had chaired a committee to coin technical >words during Rajaji's term as Chief Minister). This is the task, we have to proceed further. It is the right way to respect his sort of pioneers. > >The following few lines of Adigal's poem >engraved on his cemetery located in Sivanantha >Alayam, Batticaloa talk about >this simple and great man. > > veLLai niRa malligaiyO? vERentha maamalarO? > vaLLal aDi iNaikku vaayththa malar ethuvO? > > veLLai niRap poovum alla; vERu entha malarum alla; > uLLak kamalam aDi - uththamanaar vENduvathu! > >There has been too much suffering for too long there. >Praying for Peace in the land of Vipulanandar's birth, > Hopes. >N. Ganesan >ganesans at cl.uh.edu > After looking this kind of saints in the yester years, I feel shame for our contemporary sAmiyArs' behaviors. fine today a fine day. Ramani From Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE Fri Oct 3 09:18:26 1997 From: Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 10:18:26 +0100 Subject: Few questions (vEL pAri) by N.Ganesan dated 1/10/97 Message-ID: <161227032923.23782.15115302267045652874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About the derivation of MaTTakkaLappu( Batticaloa in English in Ilankai) - whether it could be a town in plain fields -the problem needs a long exposition. What I mentioned earlier is the explanation, recorded in the MaTTakkaLappu MAnmiyam (M.M). Some people now guess that it could be connected to maTTi oyster, found in abundance in the Lagoon. There are people, explaining like Ganesan, the origin of this word. But it is not the city that has given the name to the district. MaTTakkaLappu is now the name of a city as well as a district in Sri Lanka from 1960's. Upto that time, AmpARai district to the south and the south-west of Batticaloa, also formed part of MaTTakkaLappu district. The history of Batticaloa begins in the Tamil villages of the present day AmpArai district. Not merely M.M, but even inscriptions, both in stone and copper, deal with matters in villages in the present AmpARai district. KaNNaki ( Patni) worship is very popular among the Tamil Hindus throughout the two districts and recorded traditions about the worship speak of the worship, spreading from the Tamil villages in the present AmpARai district to the Tamil villages in the present truncated Batticaloa district. The first Professor of Tamil in any university in the world - Swami VipulAnaNdA - in ANNAMalai University from 1930 -hailed from KAraitIvu, a Tamil village in the present AmpARai district. At the time of Independence in 1948, the Tamils and the Tamil speaking Muslims constituted 90% of the population of the Batticaloa district. There has been massive Sinhala colonization in AmpARai district and the latest population ratio seem to be 41% Sinhala : 40 % Tamil speaking Muslim : 19 % Tamil in what was originally MaTTakkaLappu. The city, located at the point where the sea enters the lagoon, owes its creation to the Portuguese in early 17th century, who established a fortified trading post there. Its earlier name was PuLiyankuLam. Paddy fields abound in both districts -the economic base of the region. Regards, A.Veluppillai From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Fri Oct 3 15:12:12 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 11:12:12 -0400 Subject: Q. Hindu religious women Message-ID: <161227032936.23782.9022366079228311579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings (from cold and rainy St-Hyacinthe): Can someone please suggest any references on modern (nineteenth and twentieth century) Hindu (Indian) religious women. Merci d'avance. Regards, Sushil Mittal From Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE Fri Oct 3 10:15:56 1997 From: Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 11:15:56 +0100 Subject: Few questions (vEL pAri) by N.Ganesan dated 1/10/97 Message-ID: <161227032929.23782.1092547239686572970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About the former name of later MaTTakkaLappu city, I agree with Ramani that it was PuLiyantIvu, and not PuLiyaNkuLam - I am sorry that I made a mistake. I have been following news of the battles raging around PuLiyankuLam for many weeks in the north of my country that the similar sounding name slipped into a wrong context. Regards, A.Veluppillai From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Fri Oct 3 17:06:42 1997 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Anne Hardy) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 12:06:42 -0500 Subject: blue eyes? Message-ID: <161227032938.23782.4041762873781987398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, Just a brief question that's been in the back of my mind for some time: Why, in many Tibetan/Nepalese/etc. images, are Buddhas/bodhisattvas portrayed as having BLUE eyes? Regards, Kristen Hardy student of Religion and Sanskrit, University of Manitoba e-mail: umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca From silk at WMICH.EDU Fri Oct 3 18:07:29 1997 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 14:07:29 -0400 Subject: blue eyes? In-Reply-To: <199710031706.MAA14967@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca> Message-ID: <161227032940.23782.6169840085284841567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Buddha images have blue eyes because that is one of the "32 major bodily marks (lak.sa.na)" of a Buddha. As to why *this* is so, I am afraid I cannot give an answer, but perhaps the first answers your question quickly. Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu ******************* Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. From srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU Fri Oct 3 18:54:46 1997 From: srini at ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 14:54:46 -0400 Subject: Some comments on the SaDja discussion Message-ID: <161227032942.23782.12473255109379705443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna wrote: As far as I can tell,"ShaDja-first note" here is the prevalent way in which music is taught now( and possibly then), but what is this "fourth note" thing? In this case, I think "panCama" would be the base note...i.e. panCama-1, dhaivata-2,niShAda-3,ShaDja-4...was there a time/reason when panCama was the base note? ShaDja as the fourth note has to do with the NAradIyas'ikShA's identification of the notes of the (sAma) vaidika scale and the laukika (secular) scale. The vaidika scale is usually thought of as a descending scale... the NAradIyas'ikShA first equates the prathama of sAmagAna with madhyama... descending down the scale, you get ShaDja of the laukika scale as the caturtha or 4th note of sAmagAna. Krishna again: IT is also supposed to resemble( according to Apte) the note of peacocks i.e. nArada is quoted here as saying: "ShaDjam rauti mayUrastu" ...not sure if this means that this was derived from the note of the peacock.... I have a question for the music gurus here : Is there a unified theory of the derivation of all the notes- some seem to take their name from an animal with a similar calling note i.e. riShabha from v.rShabha(bull) and others seem to take it from their position in the ascending order i.e. panCamam...can somebody please post all the correct derivations of the notes? To translate literally from Tamil idiom, you can pluck your head (i.e. hair) off looking for correct derivations, unified theories, and what not. Suffice to say that a lot of fancy - at least from where we stand - is at work here. On the other hand, Bharata, Dattila are more to the point when they just list the seven svaras and get on with it. Bharata's identification of rasas with individual svaras __may__ stand up to better scrutiny since he deals with melodies, libretto, and performing ensembles in the context of drama. ___________ K.V.Ramaprasad wrote: These assignments have been probably quoted from Bharata's nATya shAstra. The association of svaras with animal cries, colors, social classes, bodily regions, sages, etc are from the NAradIyas'ikShA. ________ Palaniappan asks: When is the earliest evidence for the concept of 'saptaka' in Sanskrit? Among musicological works, afaik, Bharata's nATyas'Astra is the first extant work that talks of the saptaka and the constituent svaras. It is interesting that the saptaka is the musical concept at work in these treatises rather than the octave or the aShTaka. Given this, madhyama as the central svara makes more sense. Explanation (c) also does not make sense. For instance, if SaDja is produced from the above-mentioned six places, in how many places are the other notes produced (less or more than six places)? All these s'lokas that give 6 places of origin for SaDja notwithstanding, the NAradIyas'ikShA gives the bodily origin of ShADja simply as the throat. I think 'being born of , prepared from, made of' are all semantically very close. So the basic logic could work. But, my understanding is that the theory of musical scales with the concepts of the relationship between 'SaDja' and 'pancama' etc., and the octave were derived with the help of instruments. This may be an aside... but the use of instruments doesn't negate in any way the fundamental conception in the Sanskritic treatises that musical sound is first and foremost vocal sound. See the opening remarks in Lewis Rowell's Music and Musical Thought in Early India. Instruments are used only in the context of demonstrating the theoretical/abstract 22 s'ruti interval concept. Melodic concepts such as svaras, their consonance, dissonance, and groupings of svaras into scales, jAtis etc are more tangible concepts that don't really need derivation based on instruments. -Srini. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 3 14:44:12 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 15:44:12 +0100 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis In-Reply-To: <970930032241_1865920738@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032932.23782.17060499581153980389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:22 AM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >I have always wondered about the meaning of the Tamil word pArppan2ar >meaning brahmins . Commonly, the word pAr means to see , and so the word > pArppan2ar can be translated as seers (DED . But, we know of no use of > pArppan2ar to denote seers. It just meant brahmins. Even in the Sanskrit >tradition, all brahmins were not seers. Nor were all seers brahmins. So what >was the basis for the Tamil word pArppan2ar ? The clue was provided by my >research on the Tamil root pA meaning to extend, spread, stretch . > >The semantics of the root pA meaning extend, spread and related words are >really fascinating and they give some interesting insights into the >Tamils /Dravidians view of things. There are several words in Tamil which >can be translated as to see . They are 'kaN/kAN, nOkku, pAr', etc. Tamil >also uses nouns of the form pAr derived from the root pA . One such use >denotes earth/world , because it is an extended/spread place. The word pAr >can then be explained as indicating the fact that eye sight is the most >extended sense of perception. We can see stars lightyears away. The distances >over which we can perceive through other senses are much more limited. In >other uses of the noun form, pAr also means the axle of a vehicle >presumably because it is an extended rod as well as the coral reefs under the >sea which by their nature extend/spread. > >Another word with the meaning extend/spread is para/paravu (DED 3255), >which, I strongly feel, is related to the root pA . (I think the process is >similar to tA-taru, and vA/varu.) In fact, conventionally pAr (DED 3255), >the earth, is explained on the basis of para . Interestingly, paravu with >the basic meaning extend/spread also denotes worship, reverence, adore, >sing (DED 3257). For instances puRanAn2URu 335.12 has nel ukuttup paravum >kaTavuLum ilavE which can be translated as there was no god to sing/worship >along with the pouring/offering of paddy . > >The use of paravu in verbal worship is a known fact in Tamil. What has not >been realized so far is the use of pAr in the same context. This can be >inferred from pAr occurring as part of pArATTu meaning to applaud, >commend, eulogize (DEDS 656). pArATTu is a compound made up of pAr and > ATTu . One of the meanings of ATTu is to shower, bathe, immerse . This can >be seen from the following. > There is an intriguing thing about the corresponding word for brahmin in telugu. It is not with ordinary `r' but with `R' the sakaTa rEfa. Thus in 7th century inscriptions we find the word `pARa' used for brahmin. In the classical literature we find `pARuDu' , `pARuvADu' denoting brahmin. Some telugu scholars feel that this is due to mixing up of the two `r's. But I do not think so for the following reason. In the evolution of a language the natural tendency will be to replace the difficult to pronounce or difficult to write letters with easy ones. In telugu the tendency as far as I know has been to replace `R' with `r'. I am subject to correction on this point. For the root `pa' or `paravu' denoting spread we have, in addition to the `r' form (`parapu'), we have also the form `PaRuchu' with the same sense. Now my question is, how strong is the etymological evidence for derivation of pArpan from `pAr' to see. sarma. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 3 23:14:02 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 19:14:02 -0400 Subject: Some comments on the SaDja discussion Message-ID: <161227032945.23782.14049575962082371244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-03 14:56:20 EDT, you write: << ShaDja as the fourth note has to do with the NAradIyas'ikShA's identification of the notes of the (sAma) vaidika scale and the laukika (secular) scale. The vaidika scale is usually thought of as a descending scale... the NAradIyas'ikShA first equates the prathama of sAmagAna with madhyama... descending down the scale, you get ShaDja of the laukika scale as the caturtha or 4th note of sAmagAna. >> Based on the discussion in the list and some more research, I have also come to the conclusion that one cannot really explain the etymology of SaDja. I think the author of NAradIya zikSA was simply trying to explain the Sama Vedic svaras in terms of the svaras of the secular or laukika music existing at that time. As Lewis Rowell notes (p. 85), "The author of nAradIya zikSA was neither a towering intellect nor a brilliant innovator, but he too was trying to sort out what he heard.....But his equations sowed massive confusion for subsequent authors, whose general reaction was to endorse NArada's statements without fully understanding the original terms of reference, and some of this confusion is still evident in Indian scholarship today." Wayne Howard who studied sAma Vedic chants in exhaustive detail says the following, "The present study, in which all of the known styles of sAman-singing are discussed, proves conclusively that the SAmavedic concept of svara is much broader than believed by Burnell, Faddegon, and the rest. A central point which is made in forthcoming chapters is that the word "svara" implies a musical phrase or motive-- not necessarily only a single isolated tone. The matter was stated to me simply and directly by ZrI M. Itti Ravi NambUdiri (pAJJal village, Trichur [TRzzivaperUr] District, Kerala), the principal living exponent of a style of singing which may represent SAmavedic chant in its purest form: You must remember that the word"svara" we use is not the svara of the sapta-svaras [the seven tones of the secular scale]. We mean the movement or vibration of sound. {In describing this] we use the word "iLakkam", which means "movement"." He also says that "the words of the source verses may undergo any one of a number of alterations. These changes are necessary so that text can be adapted more conveniently to melody--evidence which strongly suggests that the melodies were pre-existent." (p.10-11) Lewis Rowell also agrees with this. This suggests to me that the melodies existed before sAma gAna. There is no clear connection between the origin of the secular music tradition and sAma gAna tradition. But then why are many scholars trying to trace the origin of Indian classical music to sAma gAna? Am I missing something? Regards S. Palaniappan From asia at SERVER.UWINDSOR.CA Fri Oct 3 23:58:25 1997 From: asia at SERVER.UWINDSOR.CA (Inst. Of Asian Cultures) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 19:58:25 -0400 Subject: HELP french doctorate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032947.23782.6769303826827101783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nalini Balbir's Thesis title: Etudes d'Exe'gese Jaina: les Avasyaka, University of Paris, 1986. Sushil Jain Institute of Asian Cultures Windsor ---------------------- On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > > Could someone in Paris or at any other place help me and find out the complete > title of a doctorate which was published around the 1970 or later. The > author's name is NALINI BALBIR. > Thank you > From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Fri Oct 3 22:04:15 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 22:04:15 +0000 Subject: HELP french doctorate Message-ID: <161227032943.23782.8761790009335492468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone in Paris or at any other place help me and find out the complete title of a doctorate which was published around the 1970 or later. The author's name is NALINI BALBIR. Thank you From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Sat Oct 4 03:27:56 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 23:27:56 -0400 Subject: HELP french doctorate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032949.23782.4791077197002841286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > Could someone in Paris or at any other place help me and find out the complete > title of a doctorate which was published around the 1970 or later. The > author's name is NALINI BALBIR. > Thank you Nalini Balbir Doctorat d'Etat en philologie hindi (Sorbonne, 1974) Title: "Le Prem Sagar: Tradition, langue et style" Director: Charlotte Vaudeville From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Sat Oct 4 03:38:50 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 23:38:50 -0400 Subject: HELP french doctorate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032951.23782.150427697684575700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Sushil Mittal wrote: > On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > > > Could someone in Paris or at any other place help me and find out the complete > > title of a doctorate which was published around the 1970 or later. The > > author's name is NALINI BALBIR. > > Thank you > > Nalini Balbir > Doctorat d'Etat en philologie hindi (Sorbonne, 1974) > Title: "Le Prem Sagar: Tradition, langue et style" > Director: Charlotte Vaudeville Oups! The above information is for Nicole Balbir. My apologies. Nalini Balbir: Doctorat de 3e cycle en etudes indiennes (Paris III, 1980) Title: "Un recueil de narrations jaina svetambara sur le don" Director: Colette Caillat published in 1982 Doctorat d'Etat en lettres et sciences humaines (Paris III, 1986) Title: "Etudes d'exegese jaina: Les Avasyaka" Director: Colette Caillat From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Oct 4 06:11:54 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 02:11:54 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis Message-ID: <161227032953.23782.3208019542121996999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-03 10:44:28 EDT, narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << In the evolution of a language the natural tendency will be to replace the difficult to pronounce or difficult to write letters with easy ones. In telugu the tendency as far as I know has been to replace `R' with `r'. I am subject to correction on this point. For the root `pa' or `paravu' denoting spread we have, in addition to the `r' form (`parapu'), we have also the form `PaRuchu' with the same sense. Now my question is, how strong is the etymological evidence for derivation of pArpan from `pAr' to see. >> I do not think we can easily explain language change on the basis ease of pronunciation. It is more complex than that. For instance, how come the former Tamil speakers of present Kerala, found it easy to maintain the distinction between L and z while most Tamils in present Tamilnadu found it hard? If one watches the Tamil movies of today, one will wonder if Tamils have contrasts between n2 and N, l, and L and so on. Some mispronounce L as l and others vice versa. It is hard to classify easy and hard sounds. I think for present day film actors, all sounds are hard. Hearing the Tamil film dialogues is so disheartening that I have virtually given up seeing Tamil films. Coming back to alternation of r and R, I think there has been some confusion even during CT period. If you see DED, the words you cite are listed under those with r. Etymological evidence to derive "pArppAn2" from "pAr" is just the structure word itself. The left most CVC is "pAr". "pAr" as a verb is usually used in the sense 'to see'. DED lists "pArppAn2" under "pAr" (to see). I have shown for the first time that "pAr" could signify "to worship". Regards S. Palaniappan From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Sat Oct 4 10:20:25 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 05:20:25 -0500 Subject: Few Questions (Vipulanandar) by Ganesan and an elaboration by Ramani Message-ID: <161227032961.23782.17564481559453146284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:10 AM 10/4/97 +0100, you wrote: >There is a small correction on Ramani's note. He was not a Professor of >Tamil in Peradeniya. He was the first Professor of Tamil in Ilankai also by >special invitation (he did not apply for the post) in the University of >Ceylon from 1942 to 1947, which was then located in Colombo. The Arts >Faculty was shifted from Colombo to Peradeniya in 1952. >Regards, >A.Veluppillai Prof. Veluppillai, Sorry for my misinterpretation of the fact. Thank you very much for correcting. Ramani From Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE Sat Oct 4 09:10:12 1997 From: Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 10:10:12 +0100 Subject: Few Questions (Vipulanandar) by Ganesan and an elaboration by Ramani Message-ID: <161227032957.23782.5645050694016474024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a small correction in Ganesan's note. Vipulananda was not an engineer. He was a physicist with a B.Sc. (London) degree. He made good use of this subject in his research on the harp. There is a small correction on Ramani's note. He was not a Professor of Tamil in Peradeniya. He was the first Professor of Tamil in Ilankai also by special invitation (he did not apply for the post) in the University of Ceylon from 1942 to 1947, which was then located in Colombo. The Arts Faculty was shifted from Colombo to Peradeniya in 1952. Regards, A.Veluppillai From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sat Oct 4 19:02:27 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 14:02:27 -0500 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 Message-ID: <161227032965.23782.16701324260370502745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re. Palaniappan's question: > "Does the use of these Prakritized or Dravidianized forms to > etymologize Sanskrit words imply that the authors' own mother tongue was > Prakritic or that the Prakritic forms were very current or acceptable in > UpaniSadic times? " It brings to mind the question of "subaltern" (I use the term--if possible--generically rather than politically) voices in the shruti. I can hardly resist offering Aitareya AAraNyaka 2.1.5: tatsatyaM saditi prANastItyannaM (note mss. variances here-- tItyannayam [from a mss. of the Aaa complete, c. late 18th c, bundled with gRhya and shrauta suutras], and tItyannaryama [from two mss. of c. 1700 and mid- 18th. c; in grantha characters with no additioanl bundled texts]) yamityasAvAdityastadetattrivRttrivRdiva vai chkSuH shuklaM kRSNaM kanIniketi | sa yadi ha vA api mRSA vadati satyaM haivAsyoditaM bhavati ya evametatsatyasya satyatvaM veda regarding the creations of days, and presence of deities within and outside the body, the translation by Keith reads: That is sattya. For sat is breath, ti is food, yam is yonder sun. That is threefold. Threefold as it were is the eye, white, dark, and the the pupil. Even though he speaks falsely, yet speaks he truth who thus knows why truth is sattya. Keith notes : This doctrine undoubtedly shows the moral disadvantages of the doctrine of salvation by knowledge, and it is the precursor of the later immunity from moral censure of teh jIvanmukta. (p. 207, n6.) In addition to Chup, see also TU 2.6 (sat/manifest and tyat/not manifest; and BAU 5.5.a which differs in the KaNva. cf. KauS.U 1.6. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Oct 4 09:12:26 1997 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (PROF. BH. KRISHNA MURTHY) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 14:12:26 +0500 Subject: the word meaning Brahmine' Message-ID: <161227032959.23782.17712539342501050216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Te. paaRu~Du instead of paaru~Du even in the oldest inscriptions show that the R started merging with r very early. So this was a reverse spelling or hyperstandard spelling. All literary South Indian Languages lost the contrast between R and r quite early (except perhaps Malayalam and Toda). So the correct spelling of the Telugu word was paaru~Du 'seer, Brahmin',which is cognaate with Ta. Ma. and Ka. word. Bh. Krishnamurti From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 4 15:04:17 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 16:04:17 +0100 Subject: Masson on dogs Message-ID: <161227032963.23782.5804511846525798055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know if anyone else noticed, but Jeff's new book on the emotional lives of dogs (sic ... siccem) was the top promotion at Amazon.com a couple of days ago. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From fujii at ZINBUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP Sat Oct 4 07:39:13 1997 From: fujii at ZINBUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Masato FUJII) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 16:39:13 +0900 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032954.23782.681523613996336182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Instead of the expected form "sattiyam", all the editions in my possession read "satiiyam" in ChU 8,3,5 except B"ohtlingk's and Senart's eds. which read "sattiyam". Even so, the point of the passage is the etymological analyzation of the word "satyam" into "sat" + "ti" + "yam", partly based on the phenomenon of the duplication of the first consonant of a consonant group in pronounciation (e.g. aggni for agni). Cf. Wackernagel, Altindische Grammatik I, p. 112f. and Tsuji, Veda-gaku Ronso, p. 34f. Masato FUJII ====================================================== Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University E-mail: fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Phone: +81-75-753-6949 Fax: +81-75-753-6903 ====================================================== From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Subject: Re: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:18:41 -0400 > In a message dated 97-10-02 18:52:33 EDT, narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > > << > The form `satIyam' is given in the Upanishad. Sankara accepts the form > `satiyam'. I do not think the form `sattiyam' is accepted. > >> > "The Principal UpaniSads" Edited with Introduction, Text, Translation and > Notes by S. Radhakrishnan published by Humanities Press 1992 edition of the > original 1953 edition published by George Allen & Unwin, Ltd., has the form > 'sattiyam'. He says, "For the classical UpaniSads the text followed is that > commented by ZaMkara. A multitude of variant readings of the texts exist, > some of them to be found in the famous commentaries, others in more out of > the way versions." > > "The UpaniSads" translated by Max Muller has the following version, "This > name Sattyam consists of three syllables, sat-tI-yam*. Sat signifies the > immortal, t, the mortal, and with yam he binds both...." In the footnote for > sat-tI-yam, he says, "We ought probably to read Sattyam, and then Sat-tI-yam. > The I in tI would then be the dual of an anubandha i..". Muller says that he > has "endeavoured throughout to follow that text which is presupposed by the > commentaries, whether they are the works of the old ZankarAcArya, or the more > modern ZankarAnanda, or SAyaNa, or others." > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Oct 5 06:15:06 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 02:15:06 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227032970.23782.15635081254936131787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-02 02:40:41 EDT, thillaud at UNICE.FR writes: << But backed bricks are too common if you have a lot of wood and workers. That can't be a proof. Informations on similar shapes would be better. >> F. Staal in his description of Agnicayana ritual cites Converse (1974) as saying,"The bricks of the Harappa civilization in its mature phase were beautifully made, well fired, and standardized in size. The basic size for the bricks was 11 1/2 inches long, 5 3/4 inches wide, and two or three inches thick. There were also double bricks 11 inches square, and special bricks for well copings, drain covers, corners, etc. Now in the whole of the Rg-Veda there is no word for brick, nor any descriptive phrase for bricks.....Thus, in the BrAhmaNas, when references to bricks begin to appear, their use is confined to one specialized rite, and the rite itself is found only in the Yajurveda tradition...... The size of the bricks to be used in the rite was one foot square, and half-bricks were also to be used (ZB vii, 5,3,viii,7,2,17). This size ans shape corresponds very closely to that of the Harappa bricks described above..." There seems to be several problems for deriving an IE etymology for "aGgiras" . Considering that "agni" is frequently called "aGgiras" and first "aGgiras", I wonder why nobody looked to see if Classical Tamil could help in this regard. In CT texts, there are two instances when "agni" is referred to by the word-form "aGgi" (paTTin2ppAlai 54, and paripATal 11.7). (In fact, this form "aGgi" can be seen in later texts also. Here there is an alternation much like nuclear vs. nukelar or ask vs. aks in American English. n before g in Tamil becomes a homorganic nasal.)Thus aGgiras could be related to a Dravidian group borrowing "agni" to give themselves an Aryan name, in that process altering it to aGgi. Then the name could have been re-Sanskritized to aGgiras. While I do not know what processes could takeplace in this re-Sanskritization, out of curiosity I applied what we saw in the change from "agni" > "aGgi" to a possible suffix that might have been added to "agni" when it was first borrowed to create a name for this group of people in Dravidian. agni+ ar > agni+y+ar , where y is a glide and ar is a suffix denoting people, meaning people of agni agniyar > agnisar ( intervocalically y alternates with "c" pronounced as "s" in Tamil. For instance, the form "kuyavar" (potter) alternates with "kucavar" pronounced as "kusavar") agnisar > aGgisar (based on agni > aGgi) If the second part of the word "sar" undergoes a similar process, we get aGgisar > aGgiras This is interesting. Is it not? I am not a subsriber to the theory of deliberate inversion in Dravidian. But we know that the exigencies of trying to get themselves elevated in the Aryan/brahminical hierarchical social structure has led many groups in India to concoct for themselves far more etymologically fanciful names and histories. So who knows if this could not have happened even in the pre-historic times? Regards S. Palaniappan From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 5 01:42:20 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 02:42:20 +0100 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032967.23782.5054902771665879370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:02 PM 10/4/97 -0500, John Robert Gardner wrote: >It brings to mind the question of "subaltern" (I use the term--if >possible--generically rather than politically) voices in the shruti. I >can hardly resist offering Aitareya AAraNyaka 2.1.5: > >tatsatyaM saditi prANastItyannaM > >(note mss. variances here-- tItyannayam [from a mss. of the Aaa complete, >c. late 18th c, bundled with gRhya and shrauta suutras], and tItyannaryama >[from two mss. of c. 1700 and mid- 18th. c; in grantha characters with no >additioanl bundled texts]) > >yamityasAvAdityastadetattrivRttrivRdiva vai chkSuH shuklaM kRSNaM >kanIniketi | sa yadi ha vA api mRSA vadati satyaM haivAsyoditaM bhavati ya >evametatsatyasya satyatvaM veda > >regarding the creations of days, and presence of deities within and >outside the body, the translation by Keith reads: > >That is sattya. For sat is breath, ti is food, yam is yonder sun. That >is threefold. Threefold as it were is the eye, white, dark, and the the >pupil. Even though he speaks falsely, yet speaks he truth who thus knows >why truth is sattya. > >Keith notes : This doctrine undoubtedly shows the moral disadvantages of >the doctrine of salvation by knowledge, and it is the precursor of the >later immunity from moral censure of teh jIvanmukta. (p. 207, n6.) > The same is put in a different way in Chandogya 5.5.1 "prathamOttamE akSarE satyam madhyatO~nRtam tadEtadanRtamubhyatah satyEna parigRhItam satyabhUyamEva bhavati, nainam vidvansamanRtam hinasti." As far as Keith's comment is concerned, we Hindus consider that a jIvanmukta cannot be judged by ordinary mortals and their laws. This may sound very odd to western minds. But that is that. sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 5 01:51:53 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 02:51:53 +0100 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 Message-ID: <161227032968.23782.13839357544127219910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:02 PM 10/4/97 -0500, John Robert Gardner wrote: >It brings to mind the question of "subaltern" (I use the term--if >possible--generically rather than politically) voices in the shruti. I >can hardly resist offering Aitareya AAraNyaka 2.1.5: > >tatsatyaM saditi prANastItyannaM > >(note mss. variances here-- tItyannayam [from a mss. of the Aaa complete, >c. late 18th c, bundled with gRhya and shrauta suutras], and tItyannaryama >[from two mss. of c. 1700 and mid- 18th. c; in grantha characters with no >additioanl bundled texts]) > >yamityasAvAdityastadetattrivRttrivRdiva vai chkSuH shuklaM kRSNaM >kanIniketi | sa yadi ha vA api mRSA vadati satyaM haivAsyoditaM bhavati ya >evametatsatyasya satyatvaM veda > >regarding the creations of days, and presence of deities within and >outside the body, the translation by Keith reads: > >That is sattya. For sat is breath, ti is food, yam is yonder sun. That >is threefold. Threefold as it were is the eye, white, dark, and the the >pupil. Even though he speaks falsely, yet speaks he truth who thus knows >why truth is sattya. > >Keith notes : This doctrine undoubtedly shows the moral disadvantages of >the doctrine of salvation by knowledge, and it is the precursor of the >later immunity from moral censure of teh jIvanmukta. (p. 207, n6.) > The same is put in a different way in Chandogya 5.5.1 "prathamOttamE akSarE satyam madhyatO~nRtam tadEtadanRtamubhyatah satyEna parigRhItam satyabhUyamEva bhavati, nainam vidvansamanRtam hinasti." As far as Keith's comment is concerned, we Hindus consider that a jIvanmukta cannot be judged by ordinary mortals and their laws. This may sound very odd to western minds. But that is that. sarma. Sorry, the passage is not from Chandogya 5.5.1 but Brahadaranyaka 5.5.1. Error is regretted. sarma. From pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Sun Oct 5 13:34:47 1997 From: pclaus at HAYWIRE.CSUHAYWARD.EDU (Peter J. Claus) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 06:34:47 -0700 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) In-Reply-To: <971005021505_1564570778@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032974.23782.2627134467097501731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wonder if Palaniappan might cite some well-accepted examples of the following claim. It would strengthen his argument. "But we know that the exigencies of trying to get themselves elevated in the Aryan/brahminical hierarchical social structure has led many groups in India to concoct for themselves far more etymologically fanciful names and histories." Peter Claus From sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU Sun Oct 5 17:50:25 1997 From: sac51900 at SACLINK.CSUS.EDU (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 09:50:25 -0800 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227032976.23782.13759183340150511488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In a message dated 97-10-02 02:40:41 EDT, thillaud at UNICE.FR writes: > > << But backed bricks are too common if you have a lot > of wood and workers. That can't be a proof. Informations on similar shapes > would be better. >> > F. Staal in his description of Agnicayana ritual cites Converse (1974) as > saying,"The bricks of the Harappa civilization in its mature phase were > beautifully made, well fired, and standardized in size. The basic size for > the bricks was 11 1/2 inches long, 5 3/4 inches wide, and two or three inches > thick. There were also double bricks 11 inches square, and special bricks for > well copings, drain covers, corners, etc. > Now in the whole of the Rg-Veda there is no word for brick, nor any > descriptive phrase for bricks.....Thus, in the BrAhmaNas, when references to > bricks begin to appear, their use is confined to one specialized rite, and > the rite itself is found only in the Yajurveda tradition...... > The size of the bricks to be used in the rite was one foot square, and > half-bricks were also to be used (ZB vii, 5,3,viii,7,2,17). This size ans > shape corresponds very closely to that of the Harappa bricks described > above..." > If Staal is correct in the assertion that bricks are first mentioned only in the Yajurveda, then this is a very sound argument. I have always thought the Angiras were indigenous priests. They are sometimes associated with the domestication of cattle as in Rgveda X 169-2 where domesticated breeds are created by the tapasya of the Angirasa. Wild rice is the offering to Brhaspati, an Angirasa priest (Satapatha Brahmana V 3-3-5). The Mahabharata mentions that the ancient rishis gathered wild rice for sustenance. The strongest evidence is the close association of the Angirasas with the Atharvaveda. The latter work is often seen as a compilation of indigenous beliefs and practices. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Oct 5 17:04:33 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 13:04:33 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227032980.23782.3069225135532006692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my earlier posting, I should have mentioned that the CT texts have the word "aGki" which is pronounced as "aGgi". In a message dated 97-10-05 05:38:27 EDT, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << This is imagination running riot.Too far-fetched and unscientific. Bh.k. >> I beg to differ from Dr. Krishna Murthy. I was not being unscientific. As I said, I do not subscribe to the theory of general deliberate inversion in Dravidian. What I was trying to do was scientifically trying to understand a possible unscientific process of deliberate intervention by human agency in altering names without any natural linguistic processes doing it. The sociological phenomenon of Sanskritization is replete with such occurrences. Let me give some examples. The goldsmith community in Tamilnadu are known as taTTAr or AcAri. In their normal day-to-day conversation, they will use the form "AcAri" pronounced as "AsAri". The VaiSNavite brahmins of Tamilnadu used the caste title "AccAri", pronounced as "AcchAri". For instance, the full name of the first Governor-General of India, Rajaji, would be written "irAcakopAlAccAri" in Tamil. The goldsmith community has a Sanskritized identity "viZvakarma brAhmaNa". To emphasize that, in formal documents like marriage invitations, they will always use the form "AccAri", even though their own dialect has only "AcAri". It is hard to explain the extra "c" except by the need to move up socially. I think a similar but reverse process is at work in Karnataka. A Kannada brahmin told me that they drop the final "i" in "AchAri" and use "Achar" to differentiate themselves from "AchAri" the name used by the goldsmith community in Karanataka. Similarly, the sea-going fisherman are called "paratar" or "paratavar". I have heard people of that community claiming descent from "bharata" of Sanskrit epics. (The correct etymology has to do with "para" of DED 3255) While Tamil orthography has prevented the clear delineation of the distinctly different forms, if Tamil had the letter "bha", today the caste will go under the name "bharatar". Of course, wholesale name changes in caste names are common too. Another source of evidence of deliberate manipulation of names is the inscriptional material. The Chola inscriptions provide a scientific way of studying this process. The Sanskrit portions of the Anbil Plates of Sundara Chola and the Leiden Plates of Rajaraja show that in trying to create a Sanskritic geneology for the Chola kings, the scribes converted "vaLavan2" one of the names used by the Chola kings such as in "kiLLi vaLavan2", "karikAl vaLavan2", etc. into "vaLabha" as the name of a mythical ancestor in the solar race. Again, here, if one were to restrict oneself to tracing the origin of this name purely based on natural sound change, we will not be successful unless we consider the Sanskritization process. That is what I was trying to attempt. Staal and others were looking at the etymology of aGgiras without considering the Sanskritization phenomenon. To quote Staal: "Who were these AGgirases, after whom Agni is frequently called "AGiras" and first AFGgiras?" Hillebrandt concluded from a general survey of their occurrence in the Rgveda that "the AGgirases were originally a family which was rather outside the main Vedic tradition, as shown by their lack of prominence in books ii-ix" (Keith 1925, I, 224). Following this suggestion there has been a great deal of scholarly discussion on their identity and provenance, and on the possible etymologies of their name. Earlier, Macdonnell had defended the view that the AGgirases were intermediaries between gods and men, and that their name is related to ..........,"messenger" English: angel. Evidence for their intermediary status, however, is slight, and this view has been generally rejected. More recently, the possibility of this etymology was revived by H. W. Bailey (1957, 52-53), who postulated a root *ang, "sing, enunciate," which occurs in the Vedic word AGgUSa, "song of praise." But Schmidt (1968, 51-52) has pointed out that there are several problems in the derivation of aGgiras from such a root (including the fact that a suffix -iras is not known anywhere else. Outside of language, etymologies prove littele, "for usage is stronger than etymology" (yogAd rUDher balIyastvaAt, as the MImAMsA philosophers have it). Even if a word is Indo-European, like Asura, for example, it might refer to things Indian and pre-Vedic. It is possible that the AGgirases were singers, and reasonably certain that they were priests of a fire cult." One cannot deny the occurrence of the form aGki pronounced as aGgi to denote "agni" in Classical Tamil texts. One cannot deny the CT addition of -ar to even borrowed words to form names for people. ParipATal 11.84 has the word 'vEtiyar" referring to the brahmins as "people of the Veda". So I see nothing wrong in proposing a hypothetical "aGkiyar" pronounced as "aGgiyar", for a people involved in a fire cult, all based on attested linguistic grounds. The change of aGgiyar to aGgisar also is defensible on linguistic grounds. It is the final step of "sar" > "ras" where I hypothesize a deliberate intervention. It is not as outlandish as one might think. I have been told that in California temples, during Sankalpa ceremonies, they refer to California as kapilAraNya based on the derivation of California given by the late ZankarAcharya of Kanchi. Considering this tendency of Indians to manipulate the language, if we have to reconstruct the original forms, we have to give due consideration to these "unscientific" tendencies which might have been present from very early on. In any case, it is just a possible process I theorized fitting all the known facts. If somebody could come up with a far simpler and elegant etymology, by all means I shall accept it. After all, that is the scientific method. Regards S. Palaniappan From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 5 21:37:17 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 14:37:17 -0700 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227032982.23782.6316253681581272259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I must first of all start off by saying that when people want to shoot a theory down, it would be a good idea to offer a reason as to why something cannnot be true(It would also help others learn about the accepted/coorect etymology). I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching to the scholars here, but I find the method of shooting down a theory through mere hand waving and terse statements very unhelpful; I would appreciate a discussion giving a better derivation of the word..... S.Palaniappan says: > Thesociological phenomenon of Sanskritization is replete with such occurrences. Let me give some examples. > >The goldsmith community in Tamilnadu are known as taTTAr or AcAri. In theirnormal day-to-day conversation, they will use the form "AcAri" pronounced as "AsAri". The VaiSNavite brahmins of Tamilnadu used the caste title "AccAri", pronounced as "AcchAri". For instance, the full name of the first >Governor-General of India, Rajaji, would be written "irAcakopAlAccAri" in >Tamil. The goldsmith community has a Sanskritized identity "viZvakarma brAhmaNa". To emphasize that, in formal documents like marriage invitations,they will always use the form "AccAri", even though their own dialect has only "AcAri". It is hard to explain the extra "c" except by the need to move up socially. I think a similar but reverse process is at work in Karnataka. A Kannada brahmin told me that they drop the final "i" in "AchAri" and use "Achar" to differentiate themselves from "AchAri" the name used by the goldsmith community in Karanataka. > There are a few points to be noted here..1. It is true that this Sanskritization business and the tendency to move up the caste system has become common for some time, but was this always the case? All the examples, I can think of, i.e. the Marathas in Maharashtra claiming Kshatriya descent, some of the lower castes in Maharashtra claiming themsleves to be Maratha for social prestige(Shivajirao Patil-NilangEkar, the ex-chief minister of Maharshtra being a good example who tagged on the title "PaTIl" inspite of not being marAThA) or people with the surname "sA~vrE" changing to the Brahminical "sAvarkar"., are all examples of need for social mobility from the 1600s onwards. There are similar stories about Kammas in Andhra Pradesh,BhumihArs in Bihar; the ways in which they tried to claim "ancient" origins/high caste is relatively a new phenomenon. I believe that this has been discussed by the sociologist M.N.Srinivas in his "Sanskritization" process but I'd be surprised if we found this phenomenon as early as the period that is refered to as "Ancient History"(<800 C.E.)...The earliest examples of this , as far as I can see are the example of the Chola Kings( 10th-11th century in the case of rAja rAja chOla) that you mentioned and the stories of the conversions to ZrivaiShNava sub-sect from the 13th century onwards from the lower castes by dangling the carrot of "caste-promotion"....... As far as I can tell, around the time that the word "angIras" came into play(think this word is mentioned in texts belonging to the "manusmr~ti" *period*), was there this kind of urge/tendency for caste mobility? and consequently were all these derivations for high sounding caste names valid in this historical period? My understanding has been that in Ancient India, people seemed not to have cared for this kind of thing because caste wasn't heriditary...the problems started only when everything became hereditary..... According to the Tamil lexicon( the six volume behemoth published by U MAdras in 1936), the word "aggi" is mentioned as occuring in the "tiruviLai"( abbreviated form) which I take to be tiruviLaiyATArpurANam(I saw no explanation in the preface for the abbreviations of specific texts)...this is traced(atleast in parts) by Dr William Harman as belonging to the literary period of the CilappatikAram, whose date he accepts as the fifth century C.E. Even allowing for this, I believe it can be shown that the word does occur in Samskrt before that(can't give you a reference off hand other than my memory of seeing it in some part of the manusmrti), which would mean that the word occured in samskrt before it occured in Tamil...... I also would like to know as to what significance fire had( if any) in the rituals of the ancient Tamils? I see a parallel between Palaniappans trying to trace the etymology of angirasa from tamil aggi and the tracing of the names of certain kinds of flowers in Sanskrit to Tamil by Hart( as an example, we have Tamil kuvaLai-sanskrit kuvalaya); here Hart proves that flowers were very important and a must in the ancient rituals of the Tamils and were absent in the corresponding vedic texts. You have mentioned something about Harappa but did fire ( or pottery, related to the fire in terms of manufacture) play an important part in ancient Tamil worship ritual? The only reason why I brought this up is because I see a parallel between this derivation and Harts work; if this is not true, I would request to be excused. I would appreciate any comments,corrections and information on these questions. Regards, Krishna >Another source of evidence of deliberate manipulation of names is the >inscriptional material. The Chola inscriptions provide a scientific way ofstudying this process. The Sanskrit portions of the Anbil Plates of Sundara Chola and the Leiden Plates of Rajaraja show that in trying to create aSanskritic geneology for the Chola kings, the scribes converted "vaLavan2" one of the names used by the Chola kings such as in "kiLLi vaLavan2" "karikAl vaLavan2", etc. into "vaLabha" as the name of a mythical ancestor in the solar race. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 5 10:00:15 1997 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (PROF. BH. KRISHNA MURTHY) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 15:00:15 +0500 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) In-Reply-To: <971005021505_1564570778@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032972.23782.11706575856856608940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is imagination running riot.Too far-fetched and unscientific. Bh.k. On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In a message dated 97-10-02 02:40:41 EDT, thillaud at UNICE.FR writes: > > << But backed bricks are too common if you have a lot > of wood and workers. That can't be a proof. Informations on similar shapes > would be better. >> > F. Staal in his description of Agnicayana ritual cites Converse (1974) as > saying,"The bricks of the Harappa civilization in its mature phase were > beautifully made, well fired, and standardized in size. The basic size for > the bricks was 11 1/2 inches long, 5 3/4 inches wide, and two or three inches > thick. There were also double bricks 11 inches square, and special bricks for > well copings, drain covers, corners, etc. > Now in the whole of the Rg-Veda there is no word for brick, nor any > descriptive phrase for bricks.....Thus, in the BrAhmaNas, when references to > bricks begin to appear, their use is confined to one specialized rite, and > the rite itself is found only in the Yajurveda tradition...... > The size of the bricks to be used in the rite was one foot square, and > half-bricks were also to be used (ZB vii, 5,3,viii,7,2,17). This size ans > shape corresponds very closely to that of the Harappa bricks described > above..." > > There seems to be several problems for deriving an IE etymology for "aGgiras" > . Considering that "agni" is frequently called "aGgiras" and first "aGgiras", > I wonder why nobody looked to see if Classical Tamil could help in this > regard. In CT texts, there are two instances when "agni" is referred to by > the word-form "aGgi" (paTTin2ppAlai 54, and paripATal 11.7). (In fact, this > form "aGgi" can be seen in later texts also. Here there is an alternation > much like nuclear vs. nukelar or ask vs. aks in American English. n before g > in Tamil becomes a homorganic nasal.)Thus aGgiras could be related to a > Dravidian group borrowing "agni" to give themselves an Aryan name, in that > process altering it to aGgi. Then the name could have been re-Sanskritized to > aGgiras. > > While I do not know what processes could takeplace in this > re-Sanskritization, out of curiosity I applied what we saw in the change from > "agni" > "aGgi" to a possible suffix that might have been added to "agni" > when it was first borrowed to create a name for this group of people in > Dravidian. > > agni+ ar > agni+y+ar , > where y is a glide and ar is a suffix denoting people, meaning people of agni > > agniyar > agnisar > ( intervocalically y alternates with "c" pronounced as "s" in Tamil. For > instance, the form "kuyavar" (potter) alternates with "kucavar" pronounced as > "kusavar") > > agnisar > aGgisar (based on agni > aGgi) > > If the second part of the word "sar" undergoes a similar process, we get > > aGgisar > aGgiras > > This is interesting. Is it not? I am not a subsriber to the theory of > deliberate inversion in Dravidian. But we know that the exigencies of trying > to get themselves elevated in the Aryan/brahminical hierarchical social > structure has led many groups in India to concoct for themselves far more > etymologically fanciful names and histories. So who knows if this could not > have happened even in the pre-historic times? > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Oct 6 03:05:40 1997 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 20:05:40 -0700 Subject: VBA Modul Devanagariconverter is ready! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032986.23782.18248304275162286689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:11 PM +0000 10/5/97, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > >N o M a c i n t o s h >Good luck That says it all. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 5 16:51:03 1997 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (PROF. BH. KRISHNA MURTHY) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 21:51:03 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227032978.23782.4245021673229691500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> palaniappan's etymology of aggiras has nothing to do with Dravidian. It is his imagination running riot. So it needs no more discussion. Bh. Krishnamurti. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sun Oct 5 20:52:52 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 22:52:52 +0200 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971005071407.2e9f3c50@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227032991.23782.3835316402684849666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 3:51 +0200 5/10/97, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >As far as Keith's comment is concerned, we Hindus consider that >a jIvanmukta cannot be judged by ordinary mortals and their laws. >This may sound very odd to western minds. But that is that. I suppose Mr Sarma is 'we Hindus' and, as a great racist leader, he give a lesson to all the poor 'western minds' and 'ordinary mortals' (I'm one of them). I accept lessons from Indians or Westerners, but just from gurus. I'm happy that most of Indian people are, just like me, ordinary mortals and I send them my best regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sun Oct 5 23:11:15 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 23:11:15 +0000 Subject: VBA Modul Devanagariconverter is ready! Message-ID: <161227032985.23782.8690478607506052195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, since a lot of you shows interest in the WINWORD97 Visual-Basic-Application program for converting romanized transcribed texts into Devanagari: the Modul is ready. You get it free including two fonts. In reverse please mail me each bug. Okay? You need: Basic knowledge of VBA, WINDOWS95 and preferable WINWORD97. Writing any text you just choose in WINWORD some lines of texts you liked to be converted. Then you call the macro-programm. After some seconds the part of text you choosed will be in devanagari mode. The modul covers several pages, so please contact me with email. You will get a zip-file which includes 4 files: the code, a readme-file and two truetype-fonts. N o M a c i n t o s h Good luck Heiner Email: roheko at classic.msn.com From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sun Oct 5 21:37:17 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 97 23:37:17 +0200 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) In-Reply-To: <971005021505_1564570778@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227032993.23782.11647849792747238611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 8:15 +0200 5/10/97, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-02 02:40:41 EDT, thillaud at UNICE.FR writes: > ><< But backed bricks are too common if you have a lot > of wood and workers. That can't be a proof. Informations on similar shapes > would be better. >> >F. Staal in his description of Agnicayana ritual cites Converse (1974) as >saying,"The bricks of the Harappa civilization in its mature phase were >beautifully made, well fired, and standardized in size. The basic size for >the bricks was 11 1/2 inches long, 5 3/4 inches wide, and two or three inches >thick. There were also double bricks 11 inches square, and special bricks for >well copings, drain covers, corners, etc. > Now in the whole of the Rg-Veda there is no word for brick, nor any >descriptive phrase for bricks.....Thus, in the BrAhmaNas, when references to >bricks begin to appear, their use is confined to one specialized rite, and >the rite itself is found only in the Yajurveda tradition...... > The size of the bricks to be used in the rite was one foot square, and >half-bricks were also to be used (ZB vii, 5,3,viii,7,2,17). This size ans >shape corresponds very closely to that of the Harappa bricks described >above..." I suppose there are technical constraints on the size of the bricks. All over the world and the time it seems approximately the same (no small, no large). The Vedic altar have a very particular shape. If you don't find this shape, made with bricks, elsewhere, you just proove a possibility, nothing else. >There seems to be several problems for deriving an IE etymology for "aGgiras" >. Considering that "agni" is frequently called "aGgiras" and first "aGgiras", >I wonder why nobody looked to see if Classical Tamil could help in this >regard. In CT texts, there are two instances when "agni" is referred to by >the word-form "aGgi" (paTTin2ppAlai 54, and paripATal 11.7). (In fact, this >form "aGgi" can be seen in later texts also. Here there is an alternation >much like nuclear vs. nukelar or ask vs. aks in American English. n before g >in Tamil becomes a homorganic nasal.)Thus aGgiras could be related to a >Dravidian group borrowing "agni" to give themselves an Aryan name, in that >process altering it to aGgi. Then the name could have been re-Sanskritized to >aGgiras. > >While I do not know what processes could takeplace in this >re-Sanskritization, out of curiosity I applied what we saw in the change from >"agni" > "aGgi" to a possible suffix that might have been added to "agni" >when it was first borrowed to create a name for this group of people in >Dravidian. > >agni+ ar > agni+y+ar , >where y is a glide and ar is a suffix denoting people, meaning people of agni > >agniyar > agnisar >( intervocalically y alternates with "c" pronounced as "s" in Tamil. For >instance, the form "kuyavar" (potter) alternates with "kucavar" pronounced as >"kusavar") > >agnisar > aGgisar (based on agni > aGgi) > >If the second part of the word "sar" undergoes a similar process, we get > >aGgisar > aGgiras > >This is interesting. Is it not? I am not a subsriber to the theory of >deliberate inversion in Dravidian. But we know that the exigencies of trying >to get themselves elevated in the Aryan/brahminical hierarchical social >structure has led many groups in India to concoct for themselves far more >etymologically fanciful names and histories. So who knows if this could not >have happened even in the pre-historic times? We don't need such complicated proof to link Agni and Angiras. There are many other possibilities. Just an example: From *ag- 'to lead, sacrify, burn': *ag-n- 'fire', locative in Agnideva 'the God in the fire' > 'the fire'. With a nasal infix with causative sense *ang- 'to make a fire, a sacrifice', with agent suffix *-h1-l- : *angir- 'sacrificer'. The masculine sigmatic thema is an intensive abstraction: 'THE sacrificer'. We don't know the first rapports between Aryans and Dravidians. To suppose one of them better than other is just a fiction intending to attise the hate between today's people. In fact, both contribute to give birth to India. Compare the best known rapports between Greece and Roma: who was the winner ? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Oct 6 06:32:03 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 02:32:03 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227032988.23782.12342094399509558933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-05 17:42:17 EDT, mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> One of the standard themes of Chola inscriptions is to link the kings to solar race and the famous Sibi who is said to have given refuge to a dove and gave his own flesh instead to the eagle pursuing the dove. This story is found in PuRanAn2URu 43. The interesting story in the poem relates an incident when the author, a brahmin by name tAmappalkaNNan2Ar and a Chola prince mAvaLattAn2 were playing a game. In the poem, the poet praises the prince as a descendant of Sibi without mentioning the name Sibi. If Cholas really did not have anything to do with Sibi, then here we have evidence of linking them to Sanskritic myths very early on. Another poem is even more interesting. PuRam 201 describes the poet kapilar calling himself an 'antaNan2' (usually interpreted as brahmin) taking the daughters of pAri after pAri's death to the chieftain iruGkOvEL of erumaiyUr or present Mysore region. Kapilar praises him as belonging to the 49th generation descendant of a king who was born in the sacrificial pit of a northern muni and ruled in Tuvarai (dvArakA) with a fort made with copper. The western portion of peninsular India especially Karnataka and Maharashtra was called "vEL pulam" in Tamil (or the land of the vELs). The etymology of "vEL" is very important to the study of Indian pre-history. vEL occurs in the following contexts: vEL - to desire, sacrifice vEL - chieftain vELvi - sacrifice vEL kO - potter iruGkOvEL - name of a chieftain vENTu - to pray, request vELANmai - agriculture vELALar - agriculturists, a caste vETTam - hunt vETTal - sacrificing vETTal -desiring vETTuvar - hunter kO - king kO - poTTer vEL is involved with all the primary activities associated with early cultures. We have to figure out why potters are called 'kO' which also means king/chieftain. In a poem, PuR. 228, the poet asks a potter who is making the burial urn to inter the Chola king, "O potter (kO) who makes the pot in the tall kiln with spreading dark smoke, you are to be pitied...". Here the Chola king is described as a descendant of "cempiyar" another name of Cholas. In short, attempts by poets to link Tamil kings with northern mythical beings has started very early. A Chola king was called the perunaRkiLLi who performed rAjasUya. A Pandya king was described as having many yAgazAlAs. So the beginnings of Sanskritization goes back a long time. As for the word "aGki" (G as in aGgiras) pronounced as "aGgi", as I said earlier, it occurs in CT text paTTin2ppAlai line which reads avircaTai munivar aGki vETkum Avuti naRumpukai munaiik kuyiltam (paT.54-55) This form "aGki" also occurs in paripATal, and cilappatikAram and so on. I am not saying "aGki" is Dravidian. I am saying it was a borrowing of IA "agni". As for your question of evidence of fire in worship rituals of native Tamils, I do not see any evidence. The potters are associated with firing pots in kilns as shown above and sacrificing as mentioned in earlier posting, but the worship rituals are silent about the presence of any fires. The name "kuyavan2" (potter) and "kuy" (adding seasoning (?) during cooking with accompanying smoke) seem to be based on a root kuy- which might have a basic meaning of heating/causing to smoke. In this sense, the name kuyavan2 potter might have some connection with fire. Some of the hierarchical relationships existing in pre-historic times has been discussed by D. D. Kosambi in "The Autochthonous Element in the MahAbhArata, in an article in the Journal of the American Oriental Society vol.84, p.31-44. He says in p.41, "The Brahmins as a caste have no special function in the Rgvedic hymns which they preempted later as their own special property. The Kazyapas have clear connection with aborigines through the prajApati myths and also the tortoise totem which their name indicates. It is very well known that agood many of the spurious Brahmins claim the Kazyapa gotra. The interdict which HiraNyakesin-satyASADha (H. zrauta-sUtra 10.4) places upon the Kazyapas and kaNvas at feasts to the manes is no longer observed; but it cannot have been accidental. There is a clear-cut rule that if the child's gotra be unknown, the Kazyapa gotra may unhesitatingly be ascribed. Lastly, if a child be born of a marriage between forbidden degrees, one rule would make it an outcaste CaNDAla while the other, seemingly more generous , says that it should be assigned to the gens Kazyapa. This discrepancy is not so great as it seems, for the CaNDAlas were a tribe (or several tribes) that became a low caste, due to stubborn persistence in breaking tabus kept by good Aryan; the Kazyapas on the other hand rose slowly from their ambiguous position." Thus the pressure to Aryanize to gain upward social mobility must have existed long back. Prof. Alf Hiltebeitel has pointed out Madeleine Biardeau's article where she discusses the incongruity of the PaNDavas staying in a potter's house in PAJcAla while they are disguised as brahmins (in light of the presence of potter-priests in South India) and the possibility of some basic compatibility between the two groups. Regards S. Palaniappan From thillaud at UNICE.FR Mon Oct 6 07:45:14 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 09:45:14 +0200 Subject: potters Message-ID: <161227032998.23782.11279609490972781308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We can't ignore than potters, like cooks and smithes are jobs using fire and secret technics. Eliade says many things about smithes. One of my students, Beatrice Dunoyer (alas, she leaved studies for a more remunerate job and never published) gave a study on the warrior-cooks in Medieval and Indian texts (Rainouart, Lancelot, Bhima, &c.) establishing a link with the early Greek 'mageiros' who is a sacrificer, a butcher and a cook. Remember Bhima was not only a cook at Viraata's palace but a warrior-butcher-sacrificer when he kills Duhzaasana. I believe than in India there is link with the fact that the zamitr was a kSatriya. Probably the potters too are not ordinary men. Intervention of a potter-God in the cosmogony is a very common myth (I remember an Amerindian racist one where the men, made with earth, were cooked by God: white people not sufficiently, black people too much, red people perfectly). Hoping to help, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 6 09:05:16 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 10:05:16 +0100 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227032996.23782.5526073231713997463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:52 PM 10/5/97 +0200, you wrote: >At 3:51 +0200 5/10/97, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > >>As far as Keith's comment is concerned, we Hindus consider that >>a jIvanmukta cannot be judged by ordinary mortals and their laws. >>This may sound very odd to western minds. But that is that. > > I suppose Mr Sarma is 'we Hindus' and, as a great racist leader, he >give a lesson to all the poor 'western minds' and 'ordinary mortals' (I'm >one of them). I accept lessons from Indians or Westerners, but just from >gurus. > I'm happy that most of Indian people are, just like me, ordinary >mortals and I send them my best regards, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > The word `ordinary people' includes all who are not jIvanmukTas, whether Hindu or any other. The very word 'jIvanmukTa' implies that he is not bound by all that binds ordinary people, which includes Hinduism also. There can be jIvanmukTas anywhere. For example, we hear about Meister Eckhart. na mE pArthAsti kartavyam triSu lOkESu kinchana nAnavAptamavAptavyam vartE Eva cha karmaNi. gita 3.22 Here we can take that Lord Krishna is talking about the state of jIvanmukta. zAntah mahAntO nivasanti santah vasantvallOkahitam charantah tIrNassvayam bhImabhavArNavam janA- nahEtunAnyAnapi tArayantah. vivEkaChUDamaNi-sankara ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ sarma. From rama at CTD.COMSAT.COM Mon Oct 6 14:16:13 1997 From: rama at CTD.COMSAT.COM (Rama Balasubramanian) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 10:16:13 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033000.23782.13770488167702592799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Claus wrote: >I wonder if Palaniappan might cite some well-accepted examples of the >following claim. It would strengthen his argument. > >"But we know that the exigencies of trying to get themselves elevated in >the Aryan/brahminical hierarchical social structure has led many groups in >India to concoct for themselves far more etymologically fanciful names and >histories." Paranjoti munivar giving sanskritized names to previous kings in the chola lineage is a well known example. I forgot the king's name (during which this happened), but I think this is a fairly well known incident. Anyone know details? Ramakrishnan. From vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU Tue Oct 7 01:24:36 1997 From: vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 18:24:36 -0700 Subject: jIvanmukta (was Re: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033007.23782.3498475695625676590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: [..] > the problem however is, that if entities are not bound by human restrictions > and their motives are beyond human understanding, they're as obsolete as a ^^^^^^^^ You mean impossible, no? If at all a perpetuum mobile existed, it will never have gone obsolete! > perpetuum mobile. whatever they'll do will be completely unreasonable and Or they won't do anything at all. In fact, the advaita school of upanishadic tradition insists that a real jIvanmukta is desireless and actionless. > accidental to humans. maybe the wales are jIvan mukTas: we'll never know! > Meister Eckhart cannot have been a jIvanmukTa, because he knew very well he > was human and bound by human restrictions and laws, but he didn't mind. > next time you see a jIvanmukTa you better cut his troat Now, now, there is no need to be so vehement about it, is there? Vidyasankar From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Mon Oct 6 18:36:35 1997 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 19:36:35 +0100 Subject: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971006143105.2bc75f30@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227033002.23782.11416086684305153821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The word `ordinary people' includes all who are not jIvanmukTas, whether >Hindu or any other. The very word 'jIvanmukTa' implies that he is not >bound by all that binds ordinary people, which includes Hinduism also. >There can be jIvanmukTas anywhere. For example, we hear about Meister >Eckhart. > na mE pArthAsti kartavyam triSu lOkESu kinchana > nAnavAptamavAptavyam vartE Eva cha karmaNi. > gita 3.22 the problem however is, that if entities are not bound by human restrictions and their motives are beyond human understanding, they're as obsolete as a perpetuum mobile. whatever they'll do will be completely unreasonable and accidental to humans. maybe the wales are jIvan mukTas: we'll never know! Meister Eckhart cannot have been a jIvanmukTa, because he knew very well he was human and bound by human restrictions and laws, but he didn't mind. next time you see a jIvanmukTa you better cut his troat -erik From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Oct 6 23:49:47 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 19:49:47 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227033004.23782.266557995939796110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-06 03:00:40 EDT, thillaud at UNICE.FR writes: << I suppose there are technical constraints on the size of the bricks. All over the world and the time it seems approximately the same (no small, no large). The Vedic altar have a very particular shape. If you don't find this shape, made with bricks, elsewhere, you just proove a possibility, nothing else.>> Staal and others reach their conclusions based on several strands of textual, and archaelogical evidence. I shall state the most important as I understand it. The ukhA and MahAvIra pots were supposed to be fired in an "upside down" position. This is the specific inverted firing technique used by the indigenous people to produce the Black and Red Ware with the inside being black and outside being red. The texts say that these rituals are to be done "in the manner of aGgiras". These and other factors imply that aGgiras were non-Vedic people. << We don't need such complicated proof to link Agni and Angiras. There are many other possibilities. Just an example: From *ag- 'to lead, sacrify, burn': *ag-n- 'fire', locative in Agnideva 'the God in the fire' > 'the fire'. With a nasal infix with causative sense *ang- 'to make a fire, a sacrifice', with agent suffix *-h1-l- : *angir- 'sacrificer'. The masculine sigmatic thema is an intensive abstraction: 'THE sacrificer'. We don't know the first rapports between Aryans and Dravidians. To suppose one of them better than other is just a fiction intending to attise the hate between today's people. In fact, both contribute to give birth to India. Compare the best known rapports between Greece and Roma: who was the winner ? >> I defer to IE specialists in this regard. Only when they find available etymologies unsatisfactory, I explore the possibility of a Dravidian influence. I had already quoted the etymological discussion by Staal. I think, Staal and other IE scholars were not satisfied with an etymology which could not explain the whole word aGgiras. Since IE scholars had settled on a non-Vedic origin of aGgirases as a people, and "aGgi" was an attested form in Dravidian for the borrowed "agni", exploration of Dravidian borrowing and re-Sanskritization seems a potential way to explain it. On the other hand, if you could come up with an etymology which will explain the whole word, that should be seriously considered. While we do not know a lot about the interaction between early Dravidians and IA-II peoples, I try to base my analysis on findings of scholars such as D. D. Kosambi whose works, I presume, are well-respected by Indologists. I try to call a spade a spade without any political considerations. Regards S. Palaniappan From DCJohnson at AUBURN.MEC.EDU Tue Oct 7 13:32:51 1997 From: DCJohnson at AUBURN.MEC.EDU (Johnson, Dave) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 97 09:32:51 -0400 Subject: VBA Modul Devanagariconverter is ready! Message-ID: <161227033010.23782.3987049588160724825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could I please receive a copy of this module? Thank you, David Johnson dcjohnson at auburn.mec.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: Rolf Heinrich Koch [SMTP:roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM] > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 1997 7:11 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: VBA Modul Devanagariconverter is ready! > > Hi, since a lot of you shows interest in the WINWORD97 > Visual-Basic-Application program for converting romanized transcribed > texts > into Devanagari: the Modul is ready. You get it free including two > fonts. In > reverse please mail me each bug. > Okay? You need: Basic knowledge of VBA, WINDOWS95 and preferable > WINWORD97. > Writing any text you just choose in WINWORD some lines of texts you > liked to > be converted. Then you call the macro-programm. After some seconds the > part of > text you choosed will be in devanagari mode. > The modul covers several pages, so please contact me with email. You > will get > a zip-file which includes 4 files: the code, a readme-file and two > truetype-fonts. > N o M a c i n t o s h > Good luck > Heiner > Email: roheko at classic.msn.com From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Tue Oct 7 12:03:12 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 97 12:03:12 +0000 Subject: VBAmodul Devanagari ATTENTION! Message-ID: <161227033009.23782.15009792994120707626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi boys (not one lady asked for the modul! the only message from a lady did not concern the modul but my note NO MACINTOSH - is it not lovely?) there is one bug: open the modul. two lines are For i = 0 To 151. Please change 151 into 152 otherwise your d will not be changed correct into devanagari. The modul works only with that version of WINWORD that is available since OFFICE97 is on the marked that came 1997 on the market. You can use the modul also for earlier Winword versions (which for instant do not understand the & meaning +) but this needs some changes in the modul. it is very easy. Give me a note I will do it for you. Heiner From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Tue Oct 7 19:16:23 1997 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 97 20:16:23 +0100 Subject: jIvanmukta (was Re: chAndogya upaniSad 1.1.8 and 8.3.5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033012.23782.11453711574322018716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 07-oct-97 schreef Vidyasankar Sundaresan: >On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: >[..] >> the problem however is, that if entities are not bound by human restrictions >> and their motives are beyond human understanding, they're as obsolete as a > ^^^^^^^^ >You mean impossible, no? If at all a perpetuum mobile existed, it will >never have gone obsolete! if you accept the idea that ot exist for a thing means to exchange energy, a perpetuum mobile, which has no energy exchange, is impossible because of its obsoleteness >> perpetuum mobile. whatever they'll do will be completely unreasonable and >Or they won't do anything at all. In fact, the advaita school of >upanishadic tradition insists that a real jIvanmukta is desireless >and actionless. >> accidental to humans. maybe the wales are jIvan mukTas: we'll never know! >> Meister Eckhart cannot have been a jIvanmukTa, because he knew very well he >> was human and bound by human restrictions and laws, but he didn't mind. >> next time you see a jIvanmukTa you better cut his troat >Now, now, there is no need to be so vehement about it, is there? I don't want to advocate any use of violence, but as far as we know a jIvanmukTa wouldn't mind. Since his/her actions and words are incomprehensible, there would be no reason to suppose that s/he would protest. Maybe s/he welcomes it.There's a story about Nagarjuna that his beheading caused him to start living again several hundred years later and of course write many more holy scriptures. BTW a jIvanmukTa could be capable of writing understandable texts, since a text doesn't have to reveal the actual intentions of the person who wrote it. Those are fleeting and entirely personal. -erik From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Oct 8 14:48:20 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 97 15:48:20 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227033014.23782.6653323504441233980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a test message. Please ignore. From fo4a004 at RRZ.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Oct 8 17:31:46 1997 From: fo4a004 at RRZ.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Burkhard Quessel) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 97 18:31:46 +0100 Subject: looking for software Message-ID: <161227033018.23782.3707379141511265138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may want to have a look at the 'WordSmiths Tools' from Oxford University Press - they contain a very nice concordance software for Windows which can also handle diacritics. It's affordable (some 50 pound) and there is a downloadable demo version. http://www1.oup.co.uk/cite/oup/elt/software/wsmith/ or, for the latest beta version: http://www.liv.ac.uk/~ms2928/wordsmit.htm Burkhard Quessel Birgit Kellner wrote: > > Forgive me for asking this not particularly Indological question - can > anybody recommend any Windows-based programs which can search multiple > data-files, > even in different directories, for the occurrence of words or phrases? > Preferably, such a program should be flexible in the way it handles both > data-input and -output, so that I could, for instance, specify "IF the > string such-and-such is found, show me what's before and what's after up > to the delimiting character ANSI 0124". As for input, it should be able > to handle ANY ANSI-characters by their numbers, in other words, it > should kindly allow me to look for diacritics. Our department mostly > uses Macs, and there is a search-program called "bochi"(in Japanese) > which comes pretty close (expect for the diacritics), but I've not yet > found anything on a Windows-platform which would be both effective and > affordable. > > Any tips will be greatly appreciated, > > Birgit Kellner > Department of Indian Philosophy > Hiroshima University -- Burkhard Quessel Institute for India and Tibet, Hamburg University Neue Rabenstr.3, D-20354 Hamburg, Germany phone: +49-40-41236268, fax: +49-40-41236267 e-mail: quessel at rrz.uni-hamburg.de From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Wed Oct 8 15:02:51 1997 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 00:02:51 +0900 Subject: looking for software Message-ID: <161227033016.23782.13139747180128586823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forgive me for asking this not particularly Indological question - can anybody recommend any Windows-based programs which can search multiple data-files, even in different directories, for the occurrence of words or phrases? Preferably, such a program should be flexible in the way it handles both data-input and -output, so that I could, for instance, specify "IF the string such-and-such is found, show me what's before and what's after up to the delimiting character ANSI 0124". As for input, it should be able to handle ANY ANSI-characters by their numbers, in other words, it should kindly allow me to look for diacritics. Our department mostly uses Macs, and there is a search-program called "bochi"(in Japanese) which comes pretty close (expect for the diacritics), but I've not yet found anything on a Windows-platform which would be both effective and affordable. Any tips will be greatly appreciated, Birgit Kellner Department of Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Oct 8 22:05:12 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 00:05:12 +0200 Subject: Request for Information Message-ID: <161227033019.23782.12506306157442137415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, can anyone help? >Dear Mr. Grote-Beverborg: > >I came across your web page of Asian E-Journals >(http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/AsianE-Journals.html) >and thought you might >have some information on a subject that I am researching. I would like >to know if you have any leads on Asians living in Germany and writing >either fiction or non-fiction in German. If you have names of authors or >their publications I would greatly appreciate your assistance. > >Best wishes, > >Monica Ghosh >___________________________ >Monica Ghosh >South Asia Librarian >University of Hawaii >Honolulu, HI 96822 >e-mail: monicag at hawaii.edu >____________________________ > From jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 9 04:43:42 1997 From: jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Jeson Woo) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 00:43:42 -0400 Subject: Existence and its definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033021.23782.8800115651178637862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, The nature of existence (sattva) has been an important question in Indian philosophy. It has been a topic of heated debates between different philosophical systems, such as the NyAya and the Buddhist PramANa schools, which presented their own definition. In the eleventh century text KSaNabhGgasiddhi, the Buddhist philosopher RatnakIrti introduced a list of the definition of existence: causal effectiveness (arthakriyAkAritva), inherence of the universal reality (sattAsamavAya), reality as specific nature (svarUpasattva), being subject to origination, decay and stability (utpAdavyayadhrauvyayogitva), being the object of valid cognition (pramANaviSayatva), being the object of valid cognition which grasps something positive (sadupalambhakapramANagocaratva), and being the object of designation (vyapadezaviSayatva). It seems to be clear that arthakriyAkAritva is the definition by the Buddhist PramANa tradition; sattAsamavAya and svarUpasattva are by the VaizeSikas; utpAdavyayadhrauvyayogitva is by Jains; and pramANaviSayatva is by the PrAbhakara school. I am now looking for which schools define existence as sadupalambhakapramANagocaratva and vyapadezaviSayatva. If somebody helps me with this, or if somebody informs me such a list of definitions of existence in other texts, I would really appreciate it. Jeson Woo Dept. of Indian Philosophy Hiroshima U. From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Thu Oct 9 15:46:48 1997 From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 09:46:48 -0600 Subject: References for kAlasUtra in atharvaveda Message-ID: <161227033027.23782.4271265268806935372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate references to discussion of the sUtraAs 53 and 54 in atharvaveda kAnda XIX. I have some of the old ones by Bloomfield, Whitney, Muir,and the more recent, Pannikkar. Thanks in advance,- Narahari Achar From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 9 08:49:45 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 09:49:45 +0100 Subject: jIvanmukTa Message-ID: <161227033023.23782.16764622768801652236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Random House Dictionary gives this information about Meister Eckhart. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Johannes Eckhart("Meister Eckhart"), c1260-1327?, Dominican Theologian and Preacher, Founder of German Mysticism. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following quotations are taken from "Perennial Philosophy" by Aldous Huxley. He has taken them from WORKS OF MEISTER ECKHART, translated by Evans. "The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God, as if He stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one in knowledge. "There is a spirit in the soul, untouched by time and flesh, flowing from the spirit, remaining in the spirit, itself wholly spiritual. In this principle is God, ever verdent, ever flowering in all the joy and glory of His actual Self. Sometimes I have called this principle the Tabernacle of the soul, some times a spiritual Light, anon I say it is a spark. But now I say that it is more exalted over this and that than the heavens are exalted over the earth. So now I name it in a nobler fashion....It is free of all names and void of all forms. It is one and simple, as God is one and simple, and no man in any wise behold it. "When I came out of the Godhead into multiplicity, then all things pro- claimed, `There is God'(the personal Creator). Now this cannot make me blessed, for hereby I realize myself as creature. But in the breaking through I am more than all creatures; I am neither God nor creature; I am that which I was and shall remain, now and forever more. There I receive a thrust which carries me above all angels. By this thrust I became so rich that God is not sufficient for me, in so far as He is only God in his divine works. For thus in breaking through, I perceive what God and I are in common. There I am what I was. There I neither increase or decrease. For there I am the immovable which moves all things. Here man has won again what he is eternally and ever shall be. Here God is received into the soul. "Thou must love God as not-God, not-spirit, not-person, not-image, but as he is, a sheer, pure absolute One, sundered from all two-ness, and in whom we must eternally sink from nothingness to nothingness. "When is a man in mere understanding? I answer `When a man sees one thing seperated from another.' And when is a man above mere understanding? That I can tell you: `When a man sees All in all, then a man stands beyond mere understanding. "Therefore I give you still another thought, which is yet purer and more spiritual: In the Kingdom of Heaven all is in all, all is one, and all is ours. "This identity of the One into the One and with the One is the source and fountainhead and breaking forth of glowing Love." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need not point out how close are these quotations to the Upanishadic and Advaitic thought. sarma. From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Thu Oct 9 09:58:47 1997 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 11:58:47 +0200 Subject: Asian E-Journals Message-ID: <161227033025.23782.7768092675541348830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I'm happy to announce that the WWW-Virtual Library Register of Asian Studies E-Journals has moved to its new location at: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/AsianE-Journals.html The page covers all Asian Online-Journals and Magazines from A-Z and is updated regulary. Enjoy the surf. Tobias *********************************** Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg Duerenerstr. 272, 50935 Koeln, Germany Fon: 0049-221-4302193 e-mail: grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.sds.de/remscheid/vereine/dig/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ //OM/ SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/ SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/ SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/ MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/ OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jai at FLEX.COM Fri Oct 10 18:15:36 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 08:15:36 -1000 Subject: measures Message-ID: <161227033038.23782.3780310142994655867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: jayabarathi > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 5:39 AM > [...] > The rajju . . . I have also noticed the term used in Astrology. > Have to check up in what context. Namaste! Yes, Rajju is one of numerous techniques in Jyotish used to determine compatibility between candidates for marriage or a relationship. In it, Nakshatr in the 27-Nakshatr system are divided into five groups, or Rajju divisions. The placement of the Moon in the partners' natal charts in them is compared according to various rules. The likelihood of certain events and trends is predicted. > . . .1 paksha is the period from the 1st day of the waxing > moon to the Full Moon or from the 1st day of the waning > moon to the New Moon. Itis a period of 15 days. > 2 pakshas make 1 Lunar month. . . . Another way of describing the Paksh is that it is the period of time taken by the Moon to traverse 15 12-degree portions, each of which is called a Tithi. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti Current: Navami Tithi, Shukl Paksh, Uttarashadh Nakshatr, Siddh Yog From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Oct 10 16:04:06 1997 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 09:04:06 -0700 Subject: measures In-Reply-To: <343DFA7E.475E9BB6@math-info.univ-paris5.fr> Message-ID: <161227033034.23782.9670107868302107864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On hala and biighaa ( Bonjour, > > In a commentary I found these words which seem to be names of measures: > > - ma.n.dala > - kumbhaka > - vi'sopa > - rajju > - vii.n.dya or viigha > - hala > - nakha > > Does anyone have ever seen these names of measure and know a reference > book where I could get informations ? > > Thank you. > -- > Fran?ois Patte. > > UFR de math?matiques et informatique > 45 rue des St P?res > 75270 Paris Cedex 06 > > Tel: 01 44 55 35 59 > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte > From patte at MATH-INFO.UNIV-PARIS5.FR Fri Oct 10 09:50:54 1997 From: patte at MATH-INFO.UNIV-PARIS5.FR (Francois.Patte) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 11:50:54 +0200 Subject: measures Message-ID: <161227033028.23782.1773388935257286094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, In a commentary I found these words which seem to be names of measures: - ma.n.dala - kumbhaka - vi'sopa - rajju - vii.n.dya or viigha - hala - nakha Does anyone have ever seen these names of measure and know a reference book where I could get informations ? Thank you. -- Fran?ois Patte. UFR de math?matiques et informatique 45 rue des St P?res 75270 Paris Cedex 06 Tel: 01 44 55 35 59 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 10 14:28:38 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 15:28:38 +0100 Subject: measures In-Reply-To: <343DFA7E.475E9BB6@math-info.univ-paris5.fr> Message-ID: <161227033030.23782.6699871702534988993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:50 AM 10/10/97 +0200, you wrote: >Bonjour, > >In a commentary I found these words which seem to be names of measures: > >- ma.n.dala >- kumbhaka >- vi'sopa >- rajju >- vii.n.dya or viigha >- hala >- nakha > >Does anyone have ever seen these names of measure and know a reference >book where I could get informations ? > >Thank you. >-- >Fran?ois Patte. > >UFR de math?matiques et informatique >45 rue des St P?res >75270 Paris Cedex 06 > >Tel: 01 44 55 35 59 >http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte > > The following usage is there in our parts ma.n.dala or maNDala - 40 days vINDya(vii.n.dya) or vIgha(viigha). This apears to be the origin of Hindi word bIghA which is used as a measure of land area, similar to acre or hectare. kumbhaka - Appears to be a measure of volume. Apte's Dictionary mentions a measure `kumbha' which is equal to twenty drOnas. rajju - Can be a measure of length similar to the English measure chain(=66ft.). nakha - Apte's Dictionary gives the meaning of number 20. Hope it will be of help. sarma. From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Fri Oct 10 20:53:48 1997 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 21:53:48 +0100 Subject: jIvanmukTa In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971009141813.116770a4@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227033040.23782.170839253450778205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Huxley himself had been influenced not only by many psychotropic substances also by a staunch dosis of advaita, this explains all. And taking quotes from their context and using them as a proof is a well known sport of all kinds of religous dogmatics and has been used to prove almost anything. -erik Op 09-oct-97 schreef DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA: >Random House Dictionary gives this information about Meister Eckhart. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Johannes Eckhart("Meister Eckhart"), c1260-1327?, Dominican Theologian and >Preacher, Founder of German Mysticism. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The following quotations are taken from "Perennial Philosophy" by >Aldous Huxley. He has taken them from WORKS OF MEISTER ECKHART, >translated by Evans. >"The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should >see God, as if He stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we >are one in knowledge. >"There is a spirit in the soul, untouched by time and flesh, flowing from >the spirit, remaining in the spirit, itself wholly spiritual. In this >principle is God, ever verdent, ever flowering in all the joy and glory >of His actual Self. Sometimes I have called this principle the Tabernacle >of the soul, some times a spiritual Light, anon I say it is a spark. >But now I say that it is more exalted over this and that than the heavens >are exalted over the earth. So now I name it in a nobler fashion....It is >free of all names and void of all forms. It is one and simple, as God is >one and simple, and no man in any wise behold it. >"When I came out of the Godhead into multiplicity, then all things pro- >claimed, `There is God'(the personal Creator). Now this cannot make me >blessed, for hereby I realize myself as creature. But in the breaking >through I am more than all creatures; I am neither God nor creature; >I am that which I was and shall remain, now and forever more. There I >receive a thrust which carries me above all angels. By this thrust I >became so rich that God is not sufficient for me, in so far as He is >only God in his divine works. For thus in breaking through, I perceive >what God and I are in common. There I am what I was. There I neither >increase or decrease. For there I am the immovable which moves all >things. Here man has won again what he is eternally and ever shall be. >Here God is received into the soul. >"Thou must love God as not-God, not-spirit, not-person, not-image, but >as he is, a sheer, pure absolute One, sundered from all two-ness, and >in whom we must eternally sink from nothingness to nothingness. >"When is a man in mere understanding? I answer `When a man sees one >thing seperated from another.' And when is a man above mere >understanding? That I can tell you: `When a man sees All in all, then >a man stands beyond mere understanding. >"Therefore I give you still another thought, which is yet purer and more >spiritual: In the Kingdom of Heaven all is in all, all is one, and all >is ours. >"This identity of the One into the One and with the One is the source and >fountainhead and breaking forth of glowing Love." >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I need not point out how close are these quotations to the Upanishadic >and Advaitic thought. >sarma. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 10 17:31:20 1997 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 22:31:20 +0500 Subject: Tamil aaytam[aaydam] identified as PDlaryngeal Message-ID: <161227033036.23782.12330761368098134939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am giving below the abstract of a paper on Ancient Tamil aaytam which has not been related to Common Dravidain Phonology untill now. I suggested that it was a relic reflex a Proto-Dravidain laryngeal (a h-type of sound similar to Sanskrit visarga)some 34 years ago and I find more and more evidence. Only scholars with analytical knowledge of Old Tamil phonology can throw light on this problem as well as Comparative Dravidian scholars. I would wellcome suggestions:Abstract: Proto-Dravidian Laryngeal *H Revisited BH. KRISHNAMURTI University of Hyderabad Old Tamil records of the early Christian era (3rd century BC to 3rd century AD) noted the occurrence of a phoneme called ?ytam with some kind of h-colouring in about a dozen lexical items. Tamil Lexicon transliterates it as /k(bar underneath)/, transcribed here as h(subdot). Its distributional properties include the following: (a) h(subdot) generally occurs after a short vowel, (b) it lengthens the preceding vowel compensatorily, (c) it gets assimilated to the following voiceless stop, (d) it is lost before most consonants, (e) it alternates with a semi-vowel *y or *w pre-vocalically or inter-vocalically. From a comparative study of definitely attested cases like Old Tamil ahtu 'that one', ihtu, 'this one', and pahtu/pattu 'ten' , h was traced to a PD laryngeal *H. By examining a number of cases in Dravidian with similar phonological behaviour, I have shown that a PD laryngeal *H would explain several lexical and grammatical items with aberrant phonology better than heretofore. These include: (a) the root for '3' (*muH-); (b) irregular verbs like caH-'die', *taH- 'bring, give to 1st or 2nd person', *waH- 'come' (all with *H in root-final position); (c) five verb roots involving *H in its interior structure, viz. *aHn-'say', *tiHn- 'eat', *uHn(subdot) - 'drink, eat', *kaHn(subdot) - 'see, eye', *weHn- 'hear' ; (d) seven sets of personal pronouns *yaH-n : *yaH-m, etc. in which the length variation between the nominative and oblique stems can be explained; and finally, (e) PD or Pre-Dravidian negative morpheme in verb inflection was reconstructed as *aHa(H) which remained *aHa(H) in PSD, PCD and PND, but became *Ha(H) in PSCD. The PD laryngeal *H thus solves several difficult problems in comparative Dravidian phonology. From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Fri Oct 10 15:37:27 1997 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 23:37:27 +0800 Subject: measures Message-ID: <161227033032.23782.6185349788945994538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:50 AM 10/10/97 +0200, you wrote: >Bonjour, > >In a commentary I found these words which seem to be names of measures: > >- ma.n.dala >- kumbhaka >- vi'sopa >- rajju >- vii.n.dya or viigha >- hala >- nakha > >Does anyone have ever seen these names of measure and know a reference >book where I could get informations ? Dear Monsieur, The rajju is a measure used by builders and sculptors. It is equivalent to 8 Hastas. 1 Hasta is 24 inches. Therefore 1 Rajju = 192 inches or 16 feet. I have also noticed the term used in Astrology. Have to check up in what context. The Ma.n.dala stands for the orb, or circle. It also means the circumference. It also is a division consisting of a certain number of slokas. Seems to apply more to the R.g Veda. Mandala is also used in calenders. It is a period of time consisting of 3 pakshas. 1 paksha is the period from the 1st day of the waxing moon to the Full Moon or from the 1st day of the waning moon to the New Moon. Itis a period of 15 days. 2 pakshas make 1 Lunar month. 3 pakshas make 1 Ma.n.dala. This is used in the Consecration of temples. After the Kumbha Abhishekham, the Ma.n.dala Abishekham is performed. Nowadays in the temples, the ma.n.dala is considered to be 48 days. ma.n.dala is also used in the Siddha Medicine of South India. Certain types of Medicine are given for a ma.n.dala in treatment of specific ailments. Regards, Jayabarathi Malaysia. > >Thank you. >-- >Fran?ois Patte. > >UFR de math?matiques et informatique >45 rue des St P?res >75270 Paris Cedex 06 > >Tel: 01 44 55 35 59 >http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte > From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Oct 11 00:32:01 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 01:32:01 +0100 Subject: measures In-Reply-To: <343DFA7E.475E9BB6@math-info.univ-paris5.fr> Message-ID: <161227033043.23782.6210857523704450821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Speaking of measures there is an anectode in which the word `ziva' is interpreted by the vaiSnvaiTe to mean a measure, to refute the argument of an opponent. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- zaivaite: zivAt parataram nAsti. (There is nobody greater than Lord Ziva) vaiSNavaiTe: drONamasti tatah param. ( Why, `drONa' is larger than it) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- `drONa' happens to be a larger measure of volume than `ziva'. ;-) sarma. From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 10 21:55:55 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 03:25:55 +0530 Subject: potter, angiras and gold purification in fire Message-ID: <161227033041.23782.83465036045515696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Prof. Krishnamurthy's suggestion for more discussion is excellent. Is 'vELvi' sacrifice (Tamil) explained as a semantic expansion or 're-borrowing' from 'vEdi' altar (RV)? The word 'angIras' is a Sanskrit compound: agni (metathesis)+rasa; rasa-vaadam in Tamil refers to alchemy. vEta-iyal also refers to alchemy. I have elsewhere argued (Indian Alchemy: Soma in the Veda, in Press: Munshiram) that soma referred to 'electrum' or 'assem' of the ancient Egyptians. somnakay in Gypsy means gold (Turner's CDIAL). soma-maNal in Tamil refers to sand containing silver ore. The electrum is a quartz (mAkSikAh or pyrite ore) containing silver and gold compound and other baser metals. The task of an angIras was to purify the ore, by a pavitram (purificatory, filtering process), oxidising, in an intense fire of the yajna, the baser metals using bones and kSAra (from plants) and adding vasaTivari waters from the SarasvatI river which is said to offer pannier gold. Rigveda is, in significant parts, a metallurgical allegory related to the industry of the peoples living on the SarasvatI river (or on what Dr. Rafique Mughal refers to as 400+ 'industrial sites' in his Ancient Cholistan). Rigveda is ecstatic about only one river: the SarasvatI, the river associated with gold. Prof. Gonda refers to the impotance of 'gold' in the vedic rites, from the Rigveda to the brAhmaNas. Palaniappan's note on AcAri is also apposite. Sanskrit AcAryA is a teacher. Tamil AcAri is a goldsmith. We seem to be on the threshold of reinventing a major economic activity of the vedic civilization with particular reference to 'sapta-dhAtu' and 'panca-jAtA' (RV 6.61.12), in the context of the discovery of the millennium: the SarasvatI river from Har-ki-dun glacier(Tons river, Bandarpunch massif) to the Gulf of Khambat.(with 1200 archaeological sites on the banks of this river) and the Sarasvati River Valley Project taking shape today in India (More on this later). Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 19 Temple Avenue, Chennai 600015, India Tel. +91 44 2354640; Fax. 4996380 mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in At 09:51 PM 10/5/97 +0500, you wrote: >palaniappan's etymology of aggiras has nothing to do with Dravidian. It is >his imagination running riot. So it needs no more discussion. Bh. >Krishnamurti. > > From ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH Sat Oct 11 06:59:26 1997 From: ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH (Ramkumar) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 09:59:26 +0300 Subject: [Fwd: Bhagavad Gita Large Print] Message-ID: <161227033045.23782.10398427747783138774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I am forwarding a message that I received. Can anybody in this group provide any details? Thanks, in advance. Sowmya ___________________________________________________________________________ Cheryl McNeil wrote: > I am legally blind and I am looking for the Bhagavad Gita in large > print. > Do you know where I may find this? > I hope that you can help me. > Thank you for your consideration > Cheryl McNeil _____________________________________________________________________________Sowmya The Bhagavad Gita homepage http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ email: ramkumar at batelco.com.bh, soms at geocities.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Oct 11 10:29:23 1997 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 11:29:23 +0100 Subject: bhartrhari - Satakatrayam - ed. by DD Kosambi Message-ID: <161227033049.23782.10050335199949375412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! I am looking for the following title, published twice by BVB (am quoting both). Are you aware of a recent edition of this title, or about the availability of it in the market? Thanks and Regards, Sreenivas ============== Bhartrhari. The epigrams attributed to Bhartrhari, including the Three centuries. ed. with principal variants and an introduction by D. D. Kosambi. Bombay, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1948 Series title: Singhi Jain series v. 23. Bhartrhari. Sataka-trayam. of Bhartrhari. (The southern archetype of the three centuries of epigrams ascribed to Bhartrhari); for the first time critically edited by D. D. Kosambi, with an anonymous Sanskrit commentary ed. Krishnamoorthi Sharma. Bombay, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1946 Series title: Bharatiya vidya series ; v. no. 9. ============== -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From aditya at SMART1.NET Sat Oct 11 13:21:30 1997 From: aditya at SMART1.NET (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 13:21:30 +0000 Subject: Forwarded from another list In-Reply-To: <19971011113209673.AAA142@bergen209.bns.no> Message-ID: <161227033056.23782.1397015304408924398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse has on Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:32:11 +0200 written as follows: >Hi, > >I would very much appreciate information on software to transcribe >Sanskrit text into English, for corpus-related work. Specifically, >I am looking for some software to do optical character recognition >of Sanskrit (an Indo-Aryan language) text, and perform a transcription >from the Sanskrit orthography into the Roman script (English). I am not aware of any OCR system for devnagri script but in case anyone knows of any such program, please post it to the list since I am also interested in scanning some documents. At present the best can be done is to scan the documents and images which can be read manually but not edited. -- Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra e-mail:a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: A bachelor enjoys the chase but doesn't eat the game. From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Sat Oct 11 11:32:11 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 13:32:11 +0200 Subject: Forwarded from another list Message-ID: <161227033052.23782.5882276475876379470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I would very much appreciate information on software to transcribe Sanskrit text into English, for corpus-related work. Specifically, I am looking for some software to do optical character recognition of Sanskrit (an Indo-Aryan language) text, and perform a transcription from the Sanskrit orthography into the Roman script (English). Responses by email (to rjprasad at BABEL.ling.upenn.edu ) would be appreciated. Thank you, Rashmi Prasad Department of Linguistics University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia PA 19104 rjprasad at BABEL.ling.upenn.edu Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Oct 11 13:04:17 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 14:04:17 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Bhagavad Gita Large Print] In-Reply-To: <343F23CD.C706D817@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <161227033054.23782.17438737841933469373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:59 AM 10/11/97 +0300, you wrote: >Dear Members, > >I am forwarding a message that I received. Can anybody in this group >provide any details? Thanks, in advance. > >Sowmya >___________________________________________________________________________ > >Cheryl McNeil wrote: > >> I am legally blind and I am looking for the Bhagavad Gita in large >> print. >> Do you know where I may find this? >> I hope that you can help me. >> Thank you for your consideration >> Cheryl McNeil > >___________________________________________________________________________ __Sowmya > >The Bhagavad Gita homepage >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ >email: ramkumar at batelco.com.bh, soms at geocities.com > > Try Gita Press, Gorakhpur, India, 273005. sarma. From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Sat Oct 11 08:29:38 1997 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 16:29:38 +0800 Subject: measures Message-ID: <161227033047.23782.16905748851439852846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:50 AM 10/10/97 +0200, you wrote: >Bonjour, > >In a commentary I found these words which seem to be names of measures: > >- ma.n.dala >- kumbhaka >- vi'sopa >- rajju >- vii.n.dya or viigha >- hala >- nakha > >Does anyone have ever seen these names of measure and know a reference >book where I could get informations ? > MOnsieur Patte, The "Hala" is indeed a land measure. There is an equivalent measure which is still used in rural Ramanathapuram District of Tamilnadu. It goes by the name of "Eer saal thuuram" This is actually an arbitrary distance that a plough drawn by a pair of oxen, usually covers at a time. This is about 100 yards in length in Ramnad. There was an equivalent measure, that was used in Britain. This was called a "Furrow long". It subsequently became the "Furlong" This is 220 yards. Regards Jayabarathi Malaysia >Thank you. >-- >Fran?ois Patte. > >UFR de math?matiques et informatique >45 rue des St P?res >75270 Paris Cedex 06 > >Tel: 01 44 55 35 59 >http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte > From bc4s-nmr at ASAHI-NET.OR.JP Sat Oct 11 11:05:46 1997 From: bc4s-nmr at ASAHI-NET.OR.JP (Shojiro NOMURA) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 20:05:46 +0900 Subject: looking for software In-Reply-To: <343BA09A.7D35@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227033051.23782.5223561969785481381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 0:02 AM +0900 1997.10.9, Birgit Kellner wrote: >Our department mostly > uses Macs, and there is a search-program called "bochi"(in Japanese) > which comes pretty close (expect for the diacritics), .... Dear Brigit. I use Pochi too. You can customize "Pochi" to display your preferable font. If you or your department have CodeWorrior Power Plant, you can change fonts on the find-dialog because this software is developed on it. So it will be a quite safe change without any bugs. That will be helpful for searching texts with diacritics. If you or your department don't have Power Plant, I can do. Please contact me. ----------- sarva mangalam---------------------------------------- Shojiro NOMURA (Waseda University) Email bc4s-nmr at asahi-net.or.jp Web URL http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~bc4s-nmr/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Sat Oct 11 14:30:11 1997 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 22:30:11 +0800 Subject: measures Message-ID: <161227033058.23782.4416789437123617670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:32 AM 10/11/97 +0100, you wrote: >Speaking of measures there is an anectode in which the word `ziva' is >interpreted by the vaiSnvaiTe to mean a measure, to refute the >argument of an opponent. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >zaivaite: zivAt parataram nAsti. (There is nobody greater than Lord Ziva) > >vaiSNavaiTe: drONamasti tatah param. ( Why, `drONa' is larger than it) >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >`drONa' happens to be a larger measure of volume than `ziva'. >;-) > >sarma. > Namaskaar! The abovementioned story is attributed to Ramanuja's disciple. The ruling Imperial Chola was Kulottungga I. He was a very stong Saivite. He found that Ramanuja was getting popular with the people with his Bakti movement and the Philosophy of surrender to Vishnu. He summoned Ramanuja to his presence. Kurattalzvan was an ardent disciple of Ramanuja. Sensing that his Guru was facing danger at the hands of Kulottungga, he implored Ramanuja to escape to Mysore. He donned sanyasi's robes and with his companion, Periya Nambi, went to Kulottungga. Kulottungga put up the challenge, "Sivat parataram nasti" To which Kurattalzvan piped up, "Dronamasti tatahparam". The Chola put out the eyes of both of them. Periyanambi died. But Kurattalzvan lived to a ripe age. But Kulottungga died of a carbuncle on his neck. The Sri Vaishnavites consider it to be devine intervention. They named Kulotungga as "Kirumi Kanta Cholzan". Regards Jayabarathi Malaysia From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Oct 12 09:24:11 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 02:24:11 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Bhagavad Gita Large Print] In-Reply-To: <343F23CD.C706D817@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <161227033062.23782.9432810829789619053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If a large print Bhagavadgita does not exist, then one could simply download the Arnold translation from the Sanskrit Documents homepage at ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/sanskrit.html and print it using a larger size font, ie. 14pt or 16pt. Just a thought. Regards, Anshuman Pandey On Sat, 11 Oct 1997, Ramkumar wrote: > Dear Members, > > I am forwarding a message that I received. Can anybody in this group > provide any details? Thanks, in advance. > > Sowmya > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Cheryl McNeil wrote: > > > I am legally blind and I am looking for the Bhagavad Gita in large > > print. > > Do you know where I may find this? > > I hope that you can help me. > > Thank you for your consideration > > Cheryl McNeil > > _____________________________________________________________________________Sowmya > > The Bhagavad Gita homepage > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ > email: ramkumar at batelco.com.bh, soms at geocities.com > > From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sun Oct 12 02:40:27 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 02:40:27 +0000 Subject: Divyavadana Message-ID: <161227033059.23782.9345755756001430333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone has to start with the translation. Is there probably already any list or book giving the parts and tales, which are already translated or do I have to start the search. Thanks for every tip (if you know somewhere a critically translation of a certain story, please let me know it) From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sun Oct 12 02:45:19 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 02:45:19 +0000 Subject: Ajanta Message-ID: <161227033061.23782.8054466760243719387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone of you had the chance to fotograph some details of the Ajanta caves (inside), I would be very pleased if you contact me since I am searching some details for the purpose of comparison. You might also send me an example roheko at classic.msn.com From jai at FLEX.COM Sun Oct 12 15:47:22 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 05:47:22 -1000 Subject: [Fwd: Bhagavad Gita Large Print] Message-ID: <161227033064.23782.17517478122915877888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hare Krshn! One can do the same with the translation by Dr. Ramananda Prasad, published by the American Gita Society. The entire text is available at many web sites including the one mentioned below. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti > From: Anshuman Pandey > Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 11:25 PM > . . . and print it using a larger size font, ie. 14pt or 16pt. From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sun Oct 12 16:32:08 1997 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 11:32:08 -0500 Subject: Divyavadana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033066.23782.7214847199985616635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rolf Heinrich Koch asks about translations of the Divyaavadaana, either the whole anthology or individual stories: 1. V.S. Agrawala, of Banares Hindu University, began work on a full translation. See his article "Some Obscure Words in the Divyaavadaana", JAOS 86, 1966, no. 2, pp. 67-75. So far as I know, he died before completing the project. I have no idea if he left any notes or drafts that could be incorporated into subsequent work, or if he did so, whether they could be made available to another researcher. 2. Andy Rotman, a doctoral student at Univ. of Chicago is working on a translation of the entire Divy. I'm sure he plans to publish it eventually, but have no idea of when it will be ready and or when it might see the light of day from between two bookcovers. Andy's translation is based on the Skt. and Tibetan. 3. A Japanese scholar, whose details I have lost in my recent move to the U.S., but whose name and address were given to me by Jonathan Silk of Western Michigan University, is also working on a full translation of the Divy, but I think it is into Japanese. He is working from the Tibetan and Chinese as well from as the Sanskrit. 4. Eugene Burnouf translated 10 Divy stories into French in his Introduction ? l'histoire du Bouddhisme indien (Paris, 1844; 2nd ed. Paris, 1876). He had to work from unedited manuscripts, but also used the Tibetan. All things considered, a very impressive achievement. 5. Kenneth Ch'en translated most of the Svaagataavadaana (though I think from Chinese) in an article published in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies: 'A Study of the Svaagata Story in the Divyaavadaana in its Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan and Chinese Versions', HJAS 9, 1947, nos. 3-4, pp. 207-314. 6. John Strong has, as you probably know, published an excellent translation of the A'sokaavadaana based on Mukhopadhyaya's critical edition (as opposed to Cowell and Neil's editio princeps). See John S. Strong, The Legend of King A'soka, Princeton University Press, 1983. 7. Jean Przyluski, in his Le Legend de l'Empereur A'soka (Paris, 1923) translates most if not all versions of the A'soka legend, including those from Divy. Both Przyluski's and Strong's translations include valuable studies. 8. D.R. Shackleton Bailey, in "Notes on the Divyaavadaana", JRAS 82, 1950, pp. 166-184 and JRAS 83, 1951, pp. 82-102, provides valuable textcritical notes on Cowell and Neil's text, though only for the first 2 or 3 stories. 9. I have prepared an English translation and study of the Puur.naavadaana (Divy no. 2). This is forthcoming from Curzon Press and should appear in 1998 as The Glorious Deeds of Puur.na: A Study and Translation of the Puur.naavadaana. 10. Since I don't have all my bibliographical materials with me, this is all the information I can provide right now. I would also recommend consulting H. Nakamura's Indian Buddhism: A Survey with Bibliographical Notes (Hammamatsu, Japan, 1980; repr. Delhi: M. Banarsidass, 1990, 1994, etc.), which lists, I am sure, other relevant publications. Hope this helps. Regards, Joel Tatelman. Joel Tatelman, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 U.S.A. Fax: (608) 265-3538 Home: 4817 Sheboygan Ave., Apt. 716, Madison, WI 53705, U.S.A. Tel.: (608) 278-0447 From silk at WMICH.EDU Sun Oct 12 21:42:24 1997 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 17:42:24 -0400 Subject: Divyavadana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033068.23782.13403260419685031505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "Japanese scholar" who is working on Divya is HIRAOKA Satoshi, of Kyoto Bunkyo University . He has published quite a bit on the text, almost all in Japanese however. He did publish several years ago a list of the published translations of chapters, including translations into Japanese; I have the article at home, however, so I can't give you the details. (I can ask him if he has it on disc, and perhaps post it to the list, although the Japanese stuff would become garbage, I guess, since it is probably in JIS code...). Hiraoka will be at the AAR meeting in San Francisco in November, so those who are in North America and interested in talking Divyavadana -- here's your chance! -- By the way, my understanding of Hiraoka's plan is that he expects to work chapter by chapter (not in order, however) through the text, consulting Tibetan and Chinese parallels, and publishing annotated translations as he goes -- and then at the end of that process publish the whole thing revised and so on. What he is *not* going to do, which would be wonderful to have done, is to go back and take another look at the MSS. For one thing, it is clear that there is not "the" Divyavadana, but rather several more or less closely related collections of stories -- this issue has been discussed (sorry folks! again in Japanese!) by IWAMOTO Yutaka in his study of Avadanas. (Some remarks also in his German version of the Sumagadhavadana.) [Any Indologists out there starting to get the idea it might not hurt to learn Japanese?] In addition, Cowell and Neil worked in a day when not much was known about so-called BHS, and there is much to be corrected in the texts, both on the basis of new MS evidence (like that available from the German-Nepal project) and as conjectural emendation. Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu ******************* Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Oct 13 04:33:38 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 00:33:38 -0400 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis (contd.) Message-ID: <161227033070.23782.11536874050990561634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to S. Radhakrishnan (Principal UpaniSads, p.p.899), jAbAla upaniSad 6 says, "tatra parama-haMsA nAma saMvartakAruNi zvetaketu durvAsaRbhu nidAgha jaDa-bharata dattAtreya raivataka prabhRtayaH,....zuddha-mAnasah prANa-saMdhAraNartham yathokta-kAle vimukto bhaikSam Acaran udara-pAtreNa lAbhAlAbhayoH samo bhUtvA zUnyAgAra-devagRha tRNa-kUTa-valmIka-vRkSamUla-kulAlazAlAgnihotra-gRha-nadIpulina-giri kuhara-kandara-koTara-nirjhara-sthaNDileSu teSv aniketa vAsya-.....". He translates it as "saMvartaka, AruNi, zvetaketu, durvAsa, Rbhu, nidAgha, jaDa-bharata, dattAtreya, raivataka and others are paramahaMsas...With a clean mind (or a pure heart), for the sake of maintaining life, they must fill at fixed times the vessel of their stomach with the alms obtained, treating gain and loss as equal. They must live in places like a deserted house or a temple or a shrub or an anthill, the root of a tree, a potters's house, fireplace, a sandbank in a river, hill, cave, hollow of a tree, stream in a deserted place......." I would like to know if the translation is accurate, and if so, does not this show the importance accorded to the potter's house? Could this indicate some special relationship between potters and RSis? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Oct 13 06:27:59 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 02:27:59 -0400 Subject: Tamil aaytam[aaydam] identified as PDlaryngeal Message-ID: <161227033071.23782.8238769635357780382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-10 13:02:44 EDT, you write: << From a comparative study of definitely attested cases like Old Tamil ahtu 'that one', ihtu, 'this one', and pahtu/pattu 'ten' , h was traced to a PD laryngeal *H. By examining a number of cases in Dravidian with similar phonological behaviour, I have shown that a PD laryngeal *H would explain several lexical and grammatical items with aberrant phonology better than heretofore. These include: (a) the root for '3' (*muH-); (b) irregular verbs like caH-'die', *taH- 'bring, give to 1st or 2nd person', *waH- 'come' (all with *H in root-final position); (c) five verb roots involving *H in its interior structure, viz. *aHn-'say', *tiHn- 'eat', *uHn(subdot) - 'drink, eat', *kaHn(subdot) - 'see, eye', *weHn- 'hear' ; >> Without having access to your full paper and some Dravidian linguistics publications, here are some comments. Coincidentally, I have been thinking about the radical vowel length variation in connection with my research related to pA, pan2uval, pAr, para etc. In one of my earlier postings, I said, "Another word with the meaning ?extend/spread? is ?para/paravu? (DED 3255), which, I strongly feel, is related to the root ?pA?. (I think the process is similar to tA-taru, and vA/varu.)" There are other verbs like no/nO which could belong to this category. V. S. Rajam discusses such words in her book "A reference grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry", p.69. I think when you say "*wehn- 'hear'", you actually refer to the verb root often transliterated as "ve" meaning 'heat'. If that is right, there is no need for an 'n' in the root. Following your model, veh- should be enough. Based on some words like pA, pan2uval, kaHsu, kaHRen2a, your model needs to consider alternation of H with l and r also. Also, if the morphophonemic rule concerning words ending in l or L as in kal or muL followed by a dental t changing to R and T respectively applied to all words, then in your model won't all words with roots with a short radical vowel and ending in l or L have the "H" inserted between the vowel and l/L? For instance kaL (toddy) will have to be kaHL. (Actually, there is a word cited by V. S. Rajam "kaHTu" meaning toddy which occurs in PuRanAn2URu 319.4) How does this affect the case of paHtu (ten)? The medieval grammar nan2n2Ul addresses this problem in one of its puNarcci rules. Although it does not reconstruct a H, the problem it deals with is the same thing, although it does it in relation to paNpuppeyarp puNarcci. An example is to combine pacumai (green) and ilai (leaf). There are two alternate results possible, paccilai and pAcilai. In connection with deriving the pAcilai form, the grammarian gives a rule to be applied "Ati nITal".. The steps work out like this. pacumai + ilai > pacu + ilai (rule: IRu pOtal) pacu + ilai > pAcu + ilai (rule: Ati nITal) pAcu + ilai > pAcilai (with the radical vowel being lengthened, u becomes extra-short "u" which gets dropped when combining with a word beginning with a vowel) It is the second stage which relates to your model. I think, in your approach the root meaning green should be modeled "paHc". By the way, is using "w" instead of "v" a new convention in Dravidian linguistics? I have seen your own "Telugu Verbal Bases" and works by P.S. Subrahmanyam, and others always using "v". Regards S. Palaniappan From jagat at POLYINTER.COM Mon Oct 13 14:59:29 1997 From: jagat at POLYINTER.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 10:59:29 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Bhagavad Gita Large Print] Message-ID: <161227033073.23782.11510809596027455932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Gita Press in Gorakhpur used to publish a Devanagari edition in extra large print. I believe they did another large print edition with anvaya breakdown and even some grammar lessons at one time. Whether they still publish these editions, I have no idea. They were great favorites of mine even though I am only short sighted. ------------------------------------------------- Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph Val-David (Qu?bec) J0T 2N0 819-322-6146, 322-3382 jagat at polyinter.com ------------------------------------------------- From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Oct 13 18:14:41 1997 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 14:14:41 -0400 Subject: English translation of Bhavishya Purana Message-ID: <161227033085.23782.3826090971565168083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do you know of a complete English translation of the Bhavishya Purana either hard copy or electronic? I need one for research purposes. Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle Bhaktivedanta Institute From Hrid at AOL.COM Mon Oct 13 18:18:48 1997 From: Hrid at AOL.COM (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 14:18:48 -0400 Subject: Sri Madhvacarya Message-ID: <161227033082.23782.11083044703748975097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the e-mail address for the Madhva sampradaya conference? Thank you very much. Sincerely, Howard Resnick From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Oct 13 18:54:44 1997 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 14:54:44 -0400 Subject: Sri Madhvacarya Message-ID: <161227033087.23782.13802592531718464298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:18 PM 10/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone have the e-mail address for the Madhva sampradaya conference? > Thank you very much. For submissions, it's: dvaita-list at eskimo.com And for subscriptions, it's: dvaita-list-request at eskimo.com For more informationm, their home page is: http://www.eskimo.com/~dvaita/list/ Sincerely yours, Chris Beetle Bhaktivedanta Institute From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Oct 13 21:04:06 1997 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal R. Adhikary) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 16:04:06 -0500 Subject: Paper Abstract Message-ID: <161227033089.23782.11287804813321330478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, An abstract of the talk, "Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah: India's Two-Track Trail to Independence" ginen on October 2, at the Asian Studies, UT Asutin, by Phillips Talbot, Former Ambassador and Past President of Asia Society, is posted at http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/Tabotabs.html Thanks. Kamal From francois at SAS.AC.UK Mon Oct 13 16:58:50 1997 From: francois at SAS.AC.UK (Francois Quiviger) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 17:58:50 +0100 Subject: Warburg Institute Research Fellowships 1998-99 (fwd) Message-ID: <161227033075.23782.7159022249911260292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not strictly indological, but the board is always open to East West realtionships studies. (This information may also be found on the Warburg Institute Web site --- http://www.sas.ac.uk/warburg) The Warburg Institute Research Fellowships, 1998-99 The Warburg Institute The Warburg Institute is dedicated to the interdisciplinary study of the classical tradition - in the sense of those elements in European thought, art and institutions that have evolved out of the cultures of the ancient world. Its Library and Photographic Collection are designed and arranged to encourage research into the processes by which one culture learns from another and by which different fields of thought and art act on each other. They are particularly concerned with continuities between the ancient Mediterranean civilizations and the cultural and intellectual history of post-classical Europe, especially in the period to c. 1800. Research Fellowships The following Fellowships in intellectual and cultural history will be tenable at the Warburg Institute in the 1998-99 session. Brian Hewson Crawford Fellowship: A Research Fellowship has been endowed from the estate of, and in memory of, Dr Brian Hewson Crawford, who graduated from the University of London in 1926. A one-month Fellowship is available for the study of any aspect of the classical tradition. Under the terms of the deed, the Fellowship is open to European scholars other than of British nationality. Henri Frankfort Fellowship: Mrs Enriqueta Frankfort has endowed a Research Fellowship in memory of her husband Henri Frankfort, who was Director of the Institute from 1949 to 1954. The Fellowship, which is short-term, may be held in any of the areas in which Professor Frankfort made his distinguished contributions to scholarship: the intellectual and cultural history of the ancient Near and Middle East, with particular reference to society, art architecture, religion, philosophy and science; the relations between the cultures of Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Aegean, and their influence on later civilizations. The Fellowship is not intended to support archaeological excavation. Frances A. Yates Fellowships: Dame Frances Yates, who died on 29 September 1981, generously bequeathed her residuary estate to found a research Fellowship or Fellowships in her name at the Institute. Fellows' interests may lie in any aspect of cultural and intellectual history but, other things being equal, preference will be given to those whose work is concerned with those areas of the medieval and Renaissance encyclopedia of knowledge to which Dame Frances herself made such distinguished contributions. One long-term and approximately ten short-term Fellowships are available. NORD/LB Warburg-Wolfenbuttel Fellowship: The Norddeutsche Landesbank has funded a four-month Research Fellowship tenable for two months at the Institute and two months at the Herzog August Bibliothek Wolfenbuttel for research into the cultural and intellectual history of early modern Europe. [Conditions, value of award and method of application for this Fellowship follow in a separate message.] Eligibility: The Fellowships are intended for younger scholars who should have completed at least two years' research towards the doctorate. Those employed as Professor, Lecturer, or equivalent in a university or learned institution may normally hold an award only if they are taking unpaid leave for the whole of the period. The Fellowship may not be held concurrently with another Fellowship or award. Applicants must normally have been under 35 years of age on 1 October 1997. Other things being equal, in the case of short-term Fellowships, preference will be given to those candidates who do not live within daily travelling distance of the Institute. Any other conditions for eligibility applicable to individual Fellowships are stated above. Duration and Value of Fellowships: The long-term Fellowship will be for up to three years and is not normally renewable. The value will be in the range of 13,500-15,500 pounds p.a. according to age and qualifications. The stipend will be paid monthly in arrears and will be liable to deductions of approximately 27% for tax and National Insurance. The short-term Felloships will be of one to three months' duration. The value of awards will be: applicants domiciled in the United Kingdom, 1,700 pounds for three months (shorter periods not available; National Insurance contributions required); applicants domiciled abroad, 850 pounds for one month, 1,400 pounds for two months, 2,000 pounds for three months. The amount of these stipends is absolute; no additional travel costs or expenses will be paid. Tenure: Fellows must hold at least three-quarters of their award during term-time. Term dates for 1998-99 will be 5 October - 11 December 1998; 11 January - 19 March 1999; 19 April - 25 June 1999. Selection: Long-term Fellowship: Interviews of short-listed candidates will be held in late February or early March. Short-term Fellowships: No interviews are held for short-term Fellowships. Awards will be notified in March 1998. All candidates will be informed of the outcome of their application. General: All Fellows will be expected to participate in the life of the Institute and to put their knowledge at the disposal of the Institute by presenting their work in a seminar and by advising the Library and Photographic Collection. Fellows may teach elsewhere during tenure of the Fellowship only with the express permission of the Director. They will be required to present a brief written report at the conclusion of their appointments. A Fellowship may be terminated if the Appointing Committee is not satisfied that the conditions of the award are being met. All publications containing results of work done with the aid of a Fellowship shall include adequate acknowledgement of the fact. Applications: Applications should be made by letter to the Director giving the following information: 1. A curriculum vitae giving full details of name, date of birth, address and present occupation, school and university education, degrees, teaching and research experience, publications 2. An outline of proposed research 3. Particulars of grants received, if any, for the same subject 4. The names and addresses of two or three persons who have agreed to write, without further invitation, to the Director in support of the appliction. These letters of reference should reach the Director by 5 January 1998. It is the responsibility of candidates to ask their referees to write to the Director by this date. 5. Candidates should state in their application whether they wish to be considered for a long-term and/or short-term Fellowship; candidates from abroad applying for short-term awards should specify how long they wish to spend at the Institute (i.e. one, two or three months). 6. Copies of published work should be submitted, if possible. Candidates should indicate whether they wish these publications to be returned, or whether they may be given to the Institute's library. Closing date: applictions must arrive at the Institute no later than 5 December 1997. Applications MUST be made by post. (No e-mail applications will be accepted.) The postal address of the Institute is: The Warburg Institute University of London Woburn Square London WC1H 0AB UK From francois at SAS.AC.UK Mon Oct 13 16:59:16 1997 From: francois at SAS.AC.UK (Francois Quiviger) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 17:59:16 +0100 Subject: NORD/LB WARBURG-WOLFENBUTTEL RESEARCH FELLOWSHIP 1998-99 (fwd) Message-ID: <161227033078.23782.3998465359581142203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:46:24 +0100 (BST) From: Jacqueline Glomski To: Francois Quiviger Subject: NORD/LB WARBURG-WOLFENBUTTEL RESEARCH FELLOWSHIP 1998-99 (fwd) The Norddeutsche Landesbank has generously funded a four-month Research Fellowship to enable a younger scholar to spend two months at the Warburg Institute, University of London, and two months at the Herzog August Bibliothek Wolfenbuttel, pursuing research into the cultural and intellectual history of early modern Europe. The Warburg Institute The Warburg Institute is dedicated to the interdisciplinary study of the classical tradition - in the sense of those elements in European thought, art and institutions that have evolved out of the cultures of the ancient world. Its Library and Photographic Collection are designed and arranged to encourage research into the processes whereby one culture learns from another, and different fields of thought and art act on one another. They are particularly concerned with continuities between the ancient Mediterranean civilizations and the cultural and intellectual history of post-classical Europe, especially in the period to c. 1800. The Herzog August Bibliothek Wolfenbuttel Over the past twenty years the Herzog August Bibliothek, with its rich historic book and manuscript holdings, has developed into an independent research institute combining the traditional role of a library with that of a humanities research centre concentrating on European cultural history of the early modern period. The Library takes its name from Duke August the Younger (1579-1666), whose collection of 135,000 imprints was one of the largest libraries of his day. It now also houses the collections of the Helmstedt University Library as well as all those books and manuscripts acquired for the collections since the death of Duke August in 1666. The Herzog August Bibliothek has recently been designated the national repository for 17th-century imprints in a scheme to establish a decentralized national library of German texts 1450-1912. The Library offers a broad range of research facilities within its own interdisciplinary fellowship programme, runs summer schools, and organizes conferences and workshops. Eligibility The Fellowship is intended for younger scholars, who should have completed at least two years' research towards a doctorate. Those employed at Professor, Lecturer or equivalent in a university of learned institution may normally hold an award only if they are taking unpaid leave for the whole of the period. The Fellowship may not be held concurrently with any othe Fellowship or award. Applicants must normally have been under 35 years of age on 1 October 1997. Duration and Value The Fellowship lasts four months, two of which must be spent in each institution. The total stipend, which may be applied to travel expenses as well as living and other incidental expenses, will be 5,100 pounds (approx. DM 14,800). Applicants domiciled in the UK will be liable for National Insurance costs on the English portion of the award. No additional funds are available. Tenure The Fellowship may be held for any four consecutive months during the year beginning 5 October 1998. Fellows must spend at least 6 weeks of their two months in London during University term-time; term dates for 1998-99 will be 5 October-11 December 1998; 11 January-19 March and 19 April-25 June 1999. Selection Candidates will be selected jointly by the two institutions and the Bank; the decision of the selection committee will be final. The successful candidate will be notified in March 1998, and all other candidates will be informed of the outcome of the applications. General At the Warburg Institute, the Fellow will be expected to be in London for the full duration of th award, and to participate in the life of the Institute by presenting his or her research in a seminar, and by advising the Library and Photographic Collection. At th Herzog August Bibliothek the Fellow will be expected to be in residence at the Library for the full duration of the award, and to present an informal paper on his or her research at one of the Fellows' meetings. The Fellow may not teach elsewhere during the tenure of the award, unless with the express permission of the Director of the relevant institution, and will be required to submit a brief written report to both institutions at the conclusion of the Fellowship. The Fellowship may be terminated if the Directors are not satisfied that the conditions of the award are being met. All publications containing results of work done with the aid of the Fellowship shall include adequate acknowledgment of the fact. Applications Applications should be made in the form of a letter in English or German, one copy of which should be sent ot the Director of the Warburg Institute, and one to the Director, Herzog August Bibliothek, Postfach 1364, 38299 Wolfenbuttel. The letter should give the following information: 1. A curriculum vitae giving full details of name, date of birth, address and present occupation, school and university education, degrees, teaching and research experience and publications. 2. An outline of the proposed research. 3. Particulars of any grants or awards received in support of the same subject. 4. The names and adresses of two or three persons who have agreed to write, without further invitation, in support of th application. These letters of reference should be sent ot the Director of the Warburg Institute by 5 January 1998. It is the responsibility of the candidates to ask their referees to write by this date. 5. Copies of published work should if possible be submitted. Candidates should indicate whether the wishe these publications to be returned, or whether they may be given to the Library of either institution. Closing date: applications must arrive at both institutions no later than 5 December 1997. NO applications will be accepted by e-mail. The postal addresses are: The Warburg Institute, Woburn Square, London WC1H 0AB, United Kingdom Herzog August Bibliothek, Postfach 13 64, 38299 Wolfenbuttel, Deutschland From francois at SAS.AC.UK Mon Oct 13 16:59:29 1997 From: francois at SAS.AC.UK (Francois Quiviger) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 17:59:29 +0100 Subject: Warburg Institute -- Mellon Research Fellowships 1998-99 (fwd) Message-ID: <161227033080.23782.16314296579337698834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:46:44 +0100 (BST) From: Jacqueline Glomski To: Francois Quiviger Subject: Warburg Institute -- Mellon Research Fellowships 1998-99 (fwd) (This information may also be found on the Warburg Institute homepage--- http://www.sas.ac.uk/warburg) The Warburg Institute, London -- Mellon Research Fellowships for Scholars in the humanities from Eastern Europe, 1998-99 The Warburg Institute The Warburg Institute is dedicated to the interdisciplinary study of the classical tradition - in the sense of those elements in European thought, art and institutions that have evolved out of the cultures of the ancient world. Its Library and Photographic Collection are designed and arranged to encourage research into the processes by which one culture learns from another, and by which different fields of thought and art act on each other. They are particularly concerned with continuities between the ancient Mediterranean civilizations and the cultural and intellectual history of post-classical Europe, especially in the period to c. 1800, and aim to document the tenacity of symbols and images in European art and architecture, the persistence of motifs and forms in Western languages and literatures, the gradual transition in Western thought from magical beliefs to religion, science and philosophy, and the survival and transformation of ancient patterns in social customs and political institutions. The Institute's resources comprise an open-access research library of about 350,000 volumes, shelved with many thousands of offprints, some 3,000 journal titles and a reference collection of over 300,000 photographs complementing the material in the Library. The Institute has an active programme of teaching, seminars, lectures and colloquia, often arranged in collaboration with other institutions or learned societies, both British and foreign. Those working at the Institute, including research fellows and scholars of many different nationalities, are encouraged to present and discuss their research in regular term-time seminars. Mellon Research Fellowships The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation has selected the Institute as one of the institutes of advanced study in Western Europe to participate in a Fellowship programme for Eastern European scholars in the humanities. 3 three-month Fellowships are available for tenure in 1998-99 in any area falling within the interests of the Institute. Eligibility: The Fellowships are open to Bulgarian, Czech, Hungarian, Polish, Romanian, and Slovak scholars. Candidates should not be permanently resident outside the four countries concerned. Fellows should have obtained a doctorate or have equivalent experience. The Fellowships are intended for younger postdoctoral scholars and, although there is no specific age limit, preference will be given to those under 40 years of age. Fellows who have already held an award under this scheme are not eligible for a second Fellowship at any of the participating institutions. Value of Fellowships: The value of the Fellowships will be the sterling equivalent of $11,500 each. Given fluctuating exchange rates, the exact figure cannot be predicted. The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, in making this grant, intends that it should cover a stipend including all living and subsistence costs; travel and shipping costs (including travel to and from England, and other trvel during the Fellowship); health insurance; post-Fellowship expenses (including acquisition of materials, subscriptions, hard- and soft-ware, membership and publications costs). These funds will be payable to Fellows after arrival at the Institute. Tenure: Term dates for 1998-99 are: 5 October - 11 December 1998; 11 January - 19 March 1999; 19 April - 25 June 1999. At least two of the three months of the Fellowship must fall within the Institute's terms. Selection: No interviews will be held. Awards will be announced in May 1998. All candidates will be informed of the outcome of their application. General: Fellows will be expected to participate in the life of the Institute and to put their knowledge at the disposal of the Institute by presenting their work in a seminar and by advising the Library and Photographic Collection. Fellows may teach elsewhere during tenure of the Fellowship only with the express permission of the Director. They will be required to present a brief written report at the conclusion of their appointment. A Fellowship may be terminated if the Apponting Committee is not satisfied that the conditions fo the award are being met. All publications containing results of work done with the aid of a Fellowship shall include adequate acknowledgement of the fact. Applications: Applications should be made by letter to the Director giving the following information: 1. A curriculum vitae giving full details of name, date of birth, nationality, address and present occupation, school and university education, degrees, teaching and research experience, publications 2. An outline of proposed research 3. Particulars of grants received, if any, for the same subject 4. The names and addresses of two or three persons who have agreed to write, without further invitation, to the Director in support of the application. These letters of reference should reach the Director by 6 April 1998. It is the responsibility of candidates to ask their referees to write to the Director by this date. 5. Copies of published work should be submitted, if possible. Candidates should indicate whether they wish these publications to be returned, or whether they may be given to the Institute's Library. Applications must arrive at the Institute no later than 1 April 1998. Applications should be made by post. Please do NOT make applications by e-mail. The postal address of the Institute is: The Warburg Institute University of London Woburn Square, London WC1H 0AB UK Telephone: 071-580-9663 Fax: 071-436-2852 From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Oct 14 05:35:17 1997 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 10:35:17 +0500 Subject: Tamil aaytam Message-ID: <161227033091.23782.5220770535003951803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reponse to Palaniappan's comments, I would like to say the following: 1.Alternations in vowel length are explainable in most cases in Dravidian, e.g. *iir-/*ir-u 'two', paar-/par-a- 'to spread'(see my TVB,Vowel-length, p.121); similarly the laternation in paac-/pacc-, ciiR-/ciRR- is explainable by morphophonemic rules which operated at the Proto-Dravidian stage. 2. I set up a laryngeal where length variation within paradigms (inflectional or derivational)cannot be exlained by established rules, e.g. *caa(y)-, ce-, ca- 'die', *waa-,waar-: war-V-, wa- 'come', *taa-, taar-:tar-V-, tee-, tay-, ta- 'bring', etc. In the verb 'hear',we need sveral reconstructions *wen-, win-, wiin (Te. wiinu 'ear');in this *weHn >*weyn/*wiyn with loss of H/y before n and vowel length, vowel quality change are all explained. Ancient Tamil aaytam becomes y in medeival inscriptions. noo/noy is explainable without *H because *noy (with attested y) contracts to noo. Ohter items like uuN-/uN-, kaaN-/kaN-, tiin-/tin- have no *y in the etymology. The demonstrative bases aH, iH, yaH alteranate with aa, ii, yaa in PDr.I do not think that paa and paar are related in the same way as waa and waar. 3. Tolk. sandhi h in muTTiitu, kaRRiitu is a case of reverse spelling. Since h assimilates to the following voiceless stop, the geminate in external (non-case) sandhi is spelt as h+T, or h+R. Phonetically there is no way how the first member of a geminate becomes lenitioned. This was posited as a spelling convention in word sandhi to keep the identity of the conjoined words. 4. I sent copies of my paper to Professors Emeneau, Hans Hock, Henry Hoenigswald and George Cardona. If you live near any of these places you may request for a copy of it. 5.It is difficult to give all the arguments here. What I need is more information on (a)When was aaytam first found in the writing system? (b) why was it written with three circles, similar to Skt. visarga? (c) how does one reconstrcut its phonetics in Old and Medeival Tamil? (d) Since h+P (voiceless stop), contrasts with PP and P, h must have been a phoneme in Early Tamil unlike the short u and short i with which Tolk classified it as caarpeZuttu. 6. After TVB I hav been using *w for PDr because I think it was phonetically a bilabial in PDr and not a labiodental. Further comments welcome. Bh.K. From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Tue Oct 14 20:22:56 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 16:22:56 -0400 Subject: CFP: 'Hindu' as the 'Other' of 'South Asian Islam' Message-ID: <161227033093.23782.8098040763948159055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2nd Announcement and Call for Papers The _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is planning a special issue for April 1999 on How Islam in its relation to South Asia has represented, over time, its distinct other, the 'Hindu' and, in turn, how these representations have shaped the sense of both Hindu and Islamic identity and interaction. Contributions submitted for this special issue will be evaluated through the usual _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ peer reviews. Manuscripts, including notes, should not exceed 40 pages in length. Please submit four copies. All submitted work should be double-spaced, including extracts, notes, and references. Footnotes should be as few as possible, and typed double-spaced at the end of the text. Documentation should follow the style recommended in sections 16.3 through 16.28 of the _Chicago Manual of Style_, 14 ed. Authors are encouraged to submit tables, figures, maps, photographs, and other illustrations along with their manuscripts; please consult the editor for specifications. Additional guidelines on manuscript preparation will be sent upon request. The deadline for submission is April 30, 1998. Completed manuscripts, inquiries about material for possible publication, and correspondence to the editor should be send to the Journal's editorial offices: Sushil Mittal, editor _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ International Institute of India Studies 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 FAX (514) 771 2776 Email: Invited participants to this special issue are: Ali Asani (Harvard), Catherine Asher (Minnesota), Peter Gaeffke (Pennsylvania), Marcia Hermansen (San Diego State), James Laine (Macalester), Tony Stewart (North Carolina State), and Philip Wagoner (Wesleyan) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Full details on _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal homepage at: . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From sanskrit-l at HINDUNET.ORG Wed Oct 15 05:42:49 1997 From: sanskrit-l at HINDUNET.ORG (Samskrita Bharati) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 11:12:49 +0530 Subject: Samskrit Correspondence Course in USA/Canada Message-ID: <161227033095.23782.7972224219580586907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv SAMSKRIT THROUGH CORRESPONDENCE by SAMSKRITA BHARATI mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm After successfully conducting a series of Samskrit camps, Samskrita Bharati announces yet another major event - the launching of Samskrit through Correspondence in United States and Canada ! Unique features * Simple interesting lessons accompanied by AUDIO cassettes. Subhashitas, Stories, puzzles, glimpses of Samskrit literature along with an innovative method of language learning ! * No prior knowledge of Samskrit assumed. * At the end of the course, you will be able to study Samskrit scriptures like Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana etc. all by yourself ! * Every lesson contains a question paper and every grade has an examination. A panel of teachers will correct your answer papers and mail it back to you. Certificate awarded to every successful participant. * All your doubts/questions on the lessons will be answered by mail. Details : Medium of instruction : English Number of grades : Four (Pravesha, Parichaya, Shiksha, Kovida) Duration of each grade : Six months Number of lessons/grade : 12 Books + Audio cassettes Mailing of lessons : October 1st, 1997 Two lessons will be mailed every month Fees for each grade : US $ 60 (Sixty US Dollars only) includes shipping and handling charges Currently we are taking registrations for the first grade (Pravesha). Mailing of lessons will commence from October 1st. Hurry up ! Fill in the registration form and mail your check to following address Convener, Samskrit through Correspondence Samskrita Bharati 1044, Lancer Drive San Jose, CA 95129 Phone : (408) 253-6160 Email: sanskrit-corr at hindunet.org Make your check payable to "Samskrita Bharati". Samskrita Bharati is a registered non-profit organization in India for promotion of Samskrit worldwide. Visit us at http://www.hindunet.org/sanskrit xxx-------------------- CUT HERE --------------------------------xxx Application for PRAVESHA ( I Grade) Last Name : First Name : Mailing Address: Phone : Email : Occupation : Education : Date : Signature : xxx------------------- CUT HERE ---------------------------------xxx From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Oct 15 20:17:02 1997 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal R. Adhikary) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 15:17:02 -0500 Subject: Paper abstract Message-ID: <161227033097.23782.15031279762584138862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: The paper abstract of the talk, "INDIAN MEDIA SINCE INDEPENDENCE" by INDER MALHOTRA given at the South Asia Seminar, Asian Studies, UT Austin, is posted below: INDIAN MEDIA SINCE INDEPENDENCE --By INDER MALHOTRA India, the world's largest democracy, also has a remarkably free press which should be understandable because of the symbiotic relationship between democracy and an unfettered media. Except for the 19 months of Indira Gandhi's Emergency during the mid-Seventies, when the entire democratic process was in suspended animation, the Indian Press has been the freest between Tangiers and Tokyo. Like Indian democracy, the Indian Press also has its flaws and shortcomings. But, by and large, it enjoys the confidence of its readers at home and respect abroad. Hitherto newspapers and journals have dominated the Indian scene, overwhelmingly during the first four of the five decades since independence and substantially at present, even though fast-expanding radio has been a part of the country's life since 1927(now reaching almost the entire population) and TV, too, has made rapid strides after a late start in the late Sixties and is said to be accessible to 80 per cent Indians. The reason for this is the Government's ownership and strict control of the electronic media. Under protracted and mounting pressure of public opinion, some functional autonomy is now being given to All India Radio and the Indian TV, called Doordarshan, but the change seems more cosmetic than real. A more effective engine of change might turn out to be the quantum leap in information technology which has, so to speak, already burst open the Indian skies and inundated the country with dozens of independent TV channels. These have brought to the millions, not just in cities and towns but also in the remote countryside, tantalizing soap operas like Santa Barbara, The Bold and the Beautiful, Baywatch, Dynasty and so on, as well as round- the- clock news and views from CNN and the BBC. More importantly, Indians and foreigners have collaborated to telecast national news bulletins which are livelier and vastly more credible than the fare put out by official TV. This could well have influenced the Government's recent bow to the doctrine of autonomy for official media but a number of crucial and often controversial issues persist. One relates to the share in equity that foreigners wanting to invest in TV in India may be allowed to hold. More prickly is the question of "up linking rights" from within India. At present the bulk of telecasts are beamed from Hong Kong or other outside centers. The source of the biggest trouble is the insistence of foreign TV owners on Direct to Home (DTH) telecasts to which official India is resistant. Yet another unresolved issue arises from the Indian print media's own reaction to the independent TV channels boom. Several major Indian newspapers, led by The Hindustan Times, have started TV companies of their own and appear to be doing well. But the Government, and vocal public opinion, taking a leaf from America's book, are bent on banning newspapers from owning TV channels or stations and vice versa. There is also strong resistance to the move, backed by some within the Government, to allow foreign newspapers to start Indian editions. No wonder a draft Broadcast Bill that the Government has prepared has pleased hardly anyone. To nobody's surprise, a lot of consumer goods advertising has shifted from newspapers and periodicals to the sexier medium of TV. But no one should rush to write an obituary of the Indian print media. Classified and other advertising in newspapers has soared. Only some of the glossy magazines are feeling the pinch. Most newspapers are flourishing. Overall the Indian Press is bigger and richer than it was, say, even at the start of the Nineties when the TV onslaught had begun. Its expansion and enrichment since independence is nothing short of phenomenal. To give only one example, The Times of India's profit before tax today exceeds its total turn over in 1971 when I had the pleasure of joining it. There are nearly 40,000 publications of all kinds in India today of which 4000 are daily newspapers in nearly 18 languages including English. Although English is read and spoken by only 2 per cent Indians, until the Eighties, English newspapers had the largest circulation. This has now become a thing of the past because the circulation of papers published in Hindi, the language understood by nearly 40 per cent Indians, has shot past that of the English papers and is rising fast. Other regional languages, more developed than Hindi, have even a longer tradition of having solid and successful papers. Quality of Hindi journalism has not unfortunately kept pace with quantity. On the contrary, most Hindi papers being published from small towns have tended to pander to the readers' lowest taste. There has also been a close relationship with the expansion of the Hindi papers and the rise of Hindu nationalism with the easily foreseeable result that while circulations have soared, the reputation for accuracy and fairness has slumped. Some English newspapers, with the once most prestigious Times of India in the lead, have also diluted their quality apparently in response to the TV's challenge. From authoritative reporting and stimulating comment, emphasis has shifted to fashion, films, beauty contests. Time was when English papers used to be staid, even stodgy. Some of then now try to be glib, flippant and occasionally prurient. Even so, cumulatively, the English Press retains its influence and prestige. In influencing ordinary voters, Hindi and regional language papers are evidently doing better. A notable trend in some of the most important English language papers has been the eclipse of the Editor by the younger generation of the proprietors. Economic liberalization has spawned a large number of purely business or financial dailies called the "pink papers" because, like London's Financial Times, they are published on salmon-colored newsprint. A disastrous consequence of the boom in business journalism has been the spur to greed and a shocking increase in corruption among journalists. The profession has not become bereft of honesty. But far too many are now acting unethically and unprofessionally. There were other sources of corruption and crass behavior earlier, such as collaboration between unscrupulous politicians and pliable editors and reporters. This dismal trend has also worsened. The most disgusting case was of a Chief Minister of U.P., the most populous and politically key state, who used the state treasury to bribe favored journalists with millions of rupees and allotment of lucrative real estate. The case is being examined by the Press Council, headed by a retired Supreme Court judge, which has the power only to censure, not punish. On the other hand, there is no dearth of honest, intrepid editors and journalists who even risk their lives to expose wrongdoing. Initially dominated by politics, the Indian media has now shifted its focus on economics, of course. But it also takes interest in human condition and vigorously champions human rights, especially those of women and children, poverty alleviation, prevention of environmental degradation and so on. In short, like the country itself, the Indian media is a complex mix basically projecting a picture of itself which is upbeat. ENDS *** The abstract is also posted at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/IndianmediaInd.html Thanks. Kamal Adhikary From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Oct 16 00:26:52 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 19:26:52 -0500 Subject: Tamil aaytam Message-ID: <161227033100.23782.7124574499579986364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10/15/97 Re: Tamil aaytam [aaydam] identified as PD laryngeal ***************************************************** There are few papers on aaytam in Proceedings of Word Tamil conferences, I think. A word `kahRu' has meanings of a type of color or sound. Nammalvar (9th century) uses aaytam in a context where it should sound as 'y'. Look at the etukai/prAsam/second syllable in each line. ahtE uyyap pukumARenRu kaNNan kazalkaLmEl koypUm pozilcUz kurukUrc caTakOpan kuRREval ceykOlat tAyiram cIrt toTaippATal ivaipattum ahkaamal kaRpavar AztuyarpOy uyyaR pAlarE In certain TirukkuRals, aaytam is treated as a vowel while in others it acts as a consonant in metrical computations (yAppilakkaNam). %%%%%%%%%% The process described by Prof. Bh. Krishnamurti is used effectively by Turaimangalam CivappirakAcar (17th century). He is a Veerasaivaite. He narrates the birth of Basavanna. For all words ending with 'l', if a word starting with 't' comes to merge with it, 't' will change to 'R'. (example: kal + taLi = kaRRaLi = stone temple, etc.,) This general rule has an additional possibility for few words. For the joining of few words ending with the letter 'l' with words starting with letter 't', 'l' will become 'h'. It is a rare occurence. Even after 'l' changing to 'h', 't' will become 'R' (retroflex) as before never minding it is 'h' that is in the front and not 'l'. Old habits die hard! (example: pal + taanai = paRRaanai = pahRaanai) Devas were praying to Basava when he is in Kailasam. This is like t becoming R after seeing l. Devas continue to pray to Basava when he descends to Earth in human form. This is like t becoming R even after seeing h, instead of the usual l. An instance of grammar taking the form of literature, kuRilvazi lakaram tanin^ilai yaayum kUTiya takaramun ezuttenRu aRikuRi vaTivam tiritalpOl n^an^ti aTalviTai meytirin^ tuRinum n^aRumalar viziyin kaNtavar ellAm n^an^tiyE enRuLam makizn^tAr Regards, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov > From: "Bh. Krishnamurti" > > I am giving below the abstract of a paper on Ancient Tamil aaytam > which has not been related to Common Dravidain Phonology untill now. > I suggested that it was a relic reflex a Proto-Dravidian laryngeal > (a h-type of sound = similar to Sanskrit visarga) some 34 years ago > and I find more and more evidence. Only scholars with analytical > knowledge of Old Tamil phonology can throw light on this problem > as well as Comparative Dravidian scholars. I would welcome suggestions :Abstract: > > Proto-Dravidian Laryngeal *H Revisited > BH. KRISHNAMURTI > University of Hyderabad > > Old Tamil records of the early Christian era (3rd century BC to 3rd > century AD) noted the occurrence of a phoneme called aaytam with some > kind of h-colouring in about a dozen lexical items. Tamil Lexicon > transliterates it as /k(bar underneath)/, transcribed here as h(subdot). > Its distributional properties include the following: (a) h (subdot) > generally occurs after a short vowel, (b) it lengthens the preceding > vowel compensatorily, (c) it gets assimilated to the following voiceless > stop, (d) it is lost before most consonants, (e) it alternates with a > semi-vowel *y or *w pre-vocalically or inter-vocalically. From a > comparative study of definitely attested cases like Old Tamil > ahtu 'that one', ihtu, 'this one', and pahtu/pattu 'ten' , h was traced > to a PD laryngeal *H. By examining a number of cases in Dravidian with > similar phonological behaviour, I have shown that a PD laryngeal *H > would explain several lexical and grammatical items with aberrant > phonology better than heretofore. These include: (a) the root for > '3' (*muH-); (b) irregular verbs like caH -'die', *taH- 'bring, give > to 1st or 2nd person', *waH- 'come' (all with *H in root-final position); > (c) five verb roots involving *H in its interior structure, viz. *aHn-'say', > *tiHn- 'eat', *uHn(subdot) - 'drink, eat', *kaHn(subdot) - 'see, eye', > *weHn- 'hear' ; (d) seven sets of personal pronouns *yaH-n : *yaH-m, etc. > in which the length variation between the nominative and oblique stems > can be explained; and finally, (e) PD or Pre-Dravidian negative morpheme > in verb inflection was reconstructed as > *aHa(H) which remained *aHa(H) in PSD, PCD and PND, but became *Ha(H) in > PSCD. The PD laryngeal *H thus solves several difficult problems in > comparative Dravidian phonology. > In a reply, S. Palaniappan (Palaniappa at aol.com) wrote: Without having access to your full paper and some Dravidian linguistics publications, here are some comments. Coincidentally, I have been thinking about the radical vowel length variation in connection with my research related to pA, pan2uval, pAr, para etc. In one of my earlier postings, I said, "Another word with the meaning $extend/spread=$ is $para/paravu$ (DED 3255), which, I strongly feel, is related to the root $pA$. (I think the process is similar to tA-taru, and vA/varu.)" There are other verbs like no/nO which could belong to this category. V. S. Rajam discusses such words in her book "A reference grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry" , p.69. I think when you say "*wehn- 'hear'", you actually refer to the verb root often transliterated as "ve" meaning 'heat'. If that is right, there is no need for an 'n' in the root. Following your model, veh- should be enough. Based on some words like pA, pan2uval, kaHsu, kaHRen2a, your model needs to consider alternation of H with l and r also. Also, if the morphophonemic rule concerning words ending in l or L as in kal or muL followed by a dental t changing to R and T respectively applied to all words, then in your model won't all words with roots with a short radical vowel and ending in l or L have the "H" inserted between the vowel and l/L? For instance kaL (toddy) will have to be kaHL. (Actually, there is a word cited by V. S. Rajam "kaHTu" meaning toddy which occurs in PuRanAn2URu 319.4) How does this affect the case of paHtu (ten)? The medieval grammar nan2n2Ul addresses this problem in one of its puNarcci rules. Although it does not reconstruct a H, the problem it deals with is the same thing, although it does it in relation to paNpuppeyarp puNarcci. An example is to combine pacumai (green) and ilai (leaf). There are two alternate results possible, paccilai and pAcilai. In connection with deriving the pAcilai form, the grammarian gives a rule to be applied "Ati nITal".. The steps work out like this. pacumai + ilai > pacu + ilai (rule: IRu pOtal) pacu + ilai > pAcu + ilai (rule: Ati nITal) pAcu + ilai > pAcilai (with the radical vowel being lengthened, u becomes extra-short "u" which gets dropped when combining with a word beginning with a vowel) It is the second stage which relates to your model. I think, in your approach the root meaning green should be modeled "paHc". By the way, is using "w" instead of "v" a new convention in Dravidian linguistics? I have seen your own "Telugu Verbal Bases" and works by P.S. Subrahmanyam, and others always using "v". From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Wed Oct 15 22:38:26 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 22:38:26 +0000 Subject: VBA Modul Devanagariconverter Message-ID: <161227033099.23782.6111898292768226198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All members who reveived already the modul: please delete the lines at the beginning of the program starting with "Dim". The program has to start with the line "Selection.Find.ClearFormatting". After I find the resolution for the bug regarding the letter "i" all of you, who reveived already the modul will get automatically the new version. All new interesents may please wait for a couple of days (I do not hope weeks) From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Thu Oct 16 03:21:14 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 05:21:14 +0200 Subject: zankara & parmenides? Message-ID: <161227033102.23782.15067315133413939910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did anyone ever write anything on zankarAcArya and parmenides? Thanks. (Note: by "and" I mean similarities, parallels, and so on) From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Thu Oct 16 16:18:29 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 11:18:29 -0500 Subject: zankara & parmenides? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033107.23782.3771086638043097268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe it is in Deussen's "System of Vedanta" that he has an appendix which goes into this in some detail. If someone else could furnish the citation--I don't have it here at my office--it is the very small thin Deussen Vedanta book. In this appendix he goes so far as to liken Zankara's teachings to "the perfection" achieved in the Sermon on the Mount of the New Testament (Book of Matthew?). Keep me/list posted as this is a most interesting topic. C. Rhys-Davids has a note that "Deussen was a staunch Parminidean, and admitted as much to me himself" jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > Did anyone ever write anything on zankarAcArya and parmenides? Thanks. > (Note: by "and" I mean similarities, parallels, and so on) > From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Thu Oct 16 16:19:18 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:19:18 -0400 Subject: CFP: 'Psychologizing Hindus' Message-ID: <161227033109.23782.6328691841699446303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2nd Announcement and Call for Papers A special issue of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, planned for December 1999, entitled 'Psychologizing Hindus' will review, explore, and reinterpret the ways 'Western' psychology has interpreted Hindus and Hinduism and make new proposals. Possible topics might include the uses that Western psychological theory (primarily personality and psychodynamic theory) has been used (unmodified or adapted) for various purposes in South Asia (psychotherapy is one interesting issue here), and the ways that that theory has affected self-images and the adaptations to modernization of some classes of South Asian individuals, and how that theory relates to wider Western attitudes and ideologies concerning South Asia. Contributions submitted for this special issue will be evaluated through the usual _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ peer reviews. Manuscripts, including notes, should not exceed 40 pages in length. Please submit three copies. All submitted work should be double-spaced, including extracts, notes, and references. Footnotes should be as few as possible, and typed double-spaced at the end of the text. Documentation should follow the style recommended in sections 16.3 through 16.28 of the _Chicago Manual of Style_, 14 ed. Authors are encouraged to submit tables, figures, maps, photographs, and other illustrations along with their manuscripts; please consult the editor for specifications. Additional guidelines on manuscript preparation will be sent upon request. The deadline for submission is August 1998. Completed manuscripts, inquiries about material for possible publication, and correspondence to the editor should be send to the Journal's editorial offices: Sushil Mittal, editor _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ International Institute of India Studies 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 FAX (514) 771 2776 Email: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Full details on _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal homepage at: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From garzilli at SHORE.NET Thu Oct 16 11:42:46 1997 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 13:42:46 +0200 Subject: zankara & parmenides? Message-ID: <161227033104.23782.12673013382364469427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: > > Did anyone ever write anything on zankarAcArya and parmenides? Thanks. > (Note: by "and" I mean similarities, parallels, and so on) Yes Prof. Donna Giancola (who does not uses Internet), at Suffolk University (Boston, MA, USA) is writing on it. She is a philosopher, Parmenides specialist, and she teaches Eastern Religions over there. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Oct 17 04:47:30 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 23:47:30 -0500 Subject: zankara & parmenides? In-Reply-To: <199710170106.LAA01463@lingua.cltr.uq.OZ.AU> Message-ID: <161227033114.23782.3464537214394690438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Okay, from years back I sift and find: Deussen, "Outlines of Indian Philosophy: The Philosophy of the Vedaanta: Berlin: Karl Curtis, 1907, pp. 40ff Hope this helps. Thanks for the correction re. "Systems"-- Systems Outlines-- smRti failed me! jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, David Dargie wrote: > >I believe it is in Deussen's "System of Vedanta" that he has an appendix > >which goes into this in some detail. If someone else could furnish the > >citation--I don't have it here at my office--it is the very small thin > >Deussen Vedanta book. In this appendix he goes so far as to liken > >Zankara's teachings to "the perfection" achieved in the Sermon on the > >Mount of the New Testament (Book of Matthew?). > > > >Keep me/list posted as this is a most interesting topic. C. Rhys-Davids > >has a note that "Deussen was a staunch Parminidean, and admitted as much > >to me himself" > > The work "The System of the Vedanta" is a fairly weighty 500page work, and I > will go and chack its contents. Perhaps the thin work to which Gardener > refers is the following reference: > > TITLE Erinnerungen an Indian,mit einer Karte, 16 Abbildungen und einem > Anhange:On the philosophy of the Vedanta in its relations to > occidental metaphysics. / Kiel,Lipsius & Tischer,1904 map,pls. > AUTHOR Deussen, Paul, 1845-1919. > AUTHOR Deussen, Paul, 1845-1919. On the philosophy of the Vedanta. > SUBJECT Vedanta. > India -- Description and travel. > NOTE # OLD RECORD # > lqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk > x LOC'N CALL # STATUS x > x1 > MENZIES DS413 .D5 AVAILABLE x > mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq > > > Regards > > David Dargie > > ***************************************************************** > David Dargie > Centre for Language Teaching and Research > University of Queensland > email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au > Phone: +61 7 3365 6917 > Home: +61 7 3397 6863 > ***************************************************************** > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 17 05:43:29 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 01:43:29 -0400 Subject: Tamil aaytam Message-ID: <161227033116.23782.8273424478228015242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I misunderstood the nature of the model proposed by Bh. Krishnamurthy. I thought he was presenting a more general model than he actually intended. In any case, here are some comments regarding his specific questions. <<5.It is difficult to give all the arguments here. What I need is more information on (a)When was aaytam first found in the writing system? (b) why was it written with three circles, similar to Skt. visarga? (c) how does one reconstrcut its phonetics in Old and Medeival Tamil? (d) Since h+P (voiceless stop), contrasts with PP and P, h must have been a phoneme in Early Tamil unlike the short u and short i with which Tolk classified it as caarpeZuttu. 6. After TVB I hav been using *w for PDr because I think it was phonetically a bilabial in PDr and not a labiodental. >> According to Tolkappiyam, H occurs only following a short vowel and preceding one of the six hard consonants/obstruents, k, c, T, t, p, and R or during puNarcci involving l and L with t (Tol. 1.2.5-6). Further Tol.1.3.19 says that the dependent letters have their birth in the same place as the leeters they are dependent on. This means Aytam is born in the same place as the corresponding hard consonant. Thus H occurs only in association with the six hard consonants. If Tolkappiyar is right, then this goes against BhK's model which has H followed by n, m, etc. From the context, it looks like H might have been similar to the homorganic nasals. Some word pairs like "pan2Ri" and "paHRi" meaning "pig" suggest this also. Another clue about the pronunciation of H is given by the music-related consonantal elongations called oRRu aLapeTai. According to nan2n2Ul, only the following 11 consonants can undergo this elongation. nasals - G, J, N, n, m, n2 liquids/semi-vowels - v, y, l, L Aytam In South Indian Classical music, the elongation of vowels and consonants is called kArvai. KArvai is not done on any of the six hard consonants or "r" or "z". This means what the grammarians called as consonants which can be elongated are really those letters on which kArvai can be done. A sound like H will be very hard to do elongation or kArvai with. The example given in nan2n2Ul for oRRu aLapeTai also hints at this possibility. vilaHHki vIGkiruL OTTumE mAtar ilaHHku muttin2 in2am vilaku/vilaGku means "to be transverse/across" ilaku/ilaGku means "to shine" In this example, the words with Aytam could theoretically represent either the words with or words without the nasals. However, the words with nasals seem more probable because of the relative frequency of words with nasals. yApparuGkalak kArikai gives varaHHku an example for Ayta aLapeTai. This seems to suggest that to avoid the problem of not being able to elongate the hard consonants, Aytam was introduced which might have represented a nasal (or a related semivowel as l and n or L and N?) or something similar to it arising out of the same place as the corresponding hard consonant. One may need to do an exhaustive analysis of all possible occurrences of Aytam as Dr. Ganesan did from TiruvAymozi. As for the orthography, as V. S. Rajam has discussed in her dissertation, Tolkappiyar seems to have attempted some orthographic innovations such as indicating a pure consonant with a dot. The term "puLLi" used in conjunction with Aytam seems to indicate, it is possible this was his innovation also. In general, Tamil scribes ignored Tolkappiyar's suggestion (with a few exceptions) regarding the use of dot for pure consonants. One may need to search the corpus of inscriptions for the occurrence of Aytam. Articles by Iravatham Mahadevan, T. V. Mahalingam, R. Nagaswamy, S. Raju may be useful. By the way, Tolkappiyam clearly defines "v" as labio-dental. Regards S. Palaniappan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Oct 17 13:54:44 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 08:54:44 -0500 Subject: Tamil aaytam Message-ID: <161227033124.23782.6784518115456034148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Iravatham Mahadevan will be the ideal choice to know about aaytam in early tamil orthography. He can be reached at Institute of Asian studies, Madras. I hear that he is writing a book on early Tamil orthograpy. Atleast from I century BC, we have short tamil inscriptions. Tamil corpus of medieval inscriptions is quite impressive. Dr. S. Raju (Head, Dept. of epigraphy, Tamil university, Thanjavur 613005) and others will be able to tell about aaytam in medieval Tamil. There are some papers on aaytam in World Tamil conf. proceedings. May be somebody under the guidance of Prof. V. I. Sunramoniam, Univ. of Kerala or some other Indian university has an M.A., or Ph.D thesis on aaytam?! N. Ganesan From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Fri Oct 17 09:23:36 1997 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 09:23:36 +0000 Subject: zankara & parmenides? Message-ID: <161227033120.23782.6420269302933228031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Did anyone ever write anything on zankarAcArya and parmenides? Thanks. >(Note: by "and" I mean similarities, parallels, and so on) > Perhaps not directly relevant to zankara but worth consulting as a comparison of Parmenides with a more nearly contemporary Indian thinker is Mislav Jezic, "Parmenides and Uddaalaka", Synthesis Philosophica 14.2 (1992) pp. 427-440. John Brockington Dr J. L. Brockington Department of Sanskrit University of Edinburgh 7 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +31 650 4174 fax: +31 650 6804 From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Oct 17 08:43:33 1997 From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 09:43:33 +0100 Subject: 'Psychologizing Hindus' Message-ID: <161227033118.23782.2628059061144471363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:19:18 -0400 Mittal Sushil wrote: >>> 2nd Announcement and Call for Papers . . . .review, explore, and reinterpret the ways 'Western' psychology has interpreted Hindus and Hinduism and make new proposals. Hindus and Hinduism according to "Western" psychology: the most detailed current interpretation (in my view unavoidably problematic in its generalizations, though well-intended) has been developed by an Indian, Sudhir Kakar (e.g. The Inner World: A Psycho-Analytic Study of Childhood and Society in India, Delhi 1981; The Colours of Violence, Delhi 1995). Can one speak, then, of a "Western" psychology which interprets Hindus and Hinduism? In any case, a critical study of Sudhir Kakar's interpretations (which is beyond my own competence) would be a 'desideratum' in the planned issue of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ on 'Psychologizing Hindus'. JH From dargie at CLTR.UQ.EDU.AU Fri Oct 17 01:06:47 1997 From: dargie at CLTR.UQ.EDU.AU (David Dargie) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 11:06:47 +1000 Subject: zankara & parmenides? Message-ID: <161227033111.23782.17820962365961113920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe it is in Deussen's "System of Vedanta" that he has an appendix >which goes into this in some detail. If someone else could furnish the >citation--I don't have it here at my office--it is the very small thin >Deussen Vedanta book. In this appendix he goes so far as to liken >Zankara's teachings to "the perfection" achieved in the Sermon on the >Mount of the New Testament (Book of Matthew?). > >Keep me/list posted as this is a most interesting topic. C. Rhys-Davids >has a note that "Deussen was a staunch Parminidean, and admitted as much >to me himself" The work "The System of the Vedanta" is a fairly weighty 500page work, and I will go and chack its contents. Perhaps the thin work to which Gardener refers is the following reference: TITLE Erinnerungen an Indian,mit einer Karte, 16 Abbildungen und einem Anhange:On the philosophy of the Vedanta in its relations to occidental metaphysics. / Kiel,Lipsius & Tischer,1904 map,pls. AUTHOR Deussen, Paul, 1845-1919. AUTHOR Deussen, Paul, 1845-1919. On the philosophy of the Vedanta. SUBJECT Vedanta. India -- Description and travel. NOTE # OLD RECORD # lqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk x LOC'N CALL # STATUS x x1 > MENZIES DS413 .D5 AVAILABLE x mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq Regards David Dargie ***************************************************************** David Dargie Centre for Language Teaching and Research University of Queensland email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Phone: +61 7 3365 6917 Home: +61 7 3397 6863 ***************************************************************** From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Fri Oct 17 16:58:59 1997 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Anne Hardy) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 11:58:59 -0500 Subject: Terminology for conical structure on top of temples Message-ID: <161227033131.23782.11074150117688277884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Sanskrit term 'shikhara' (meaning 'peak') is used to refer to the 'tower' which rises over the sanctuary of Northern Indian temples; the flat, ribbed part which rests above this is known as an 'aamalaka' (like the fruit which it resembles), and the finial is a 'kalasha' (a 'pot'/'pitcher'). While 'finial' is normally used in English for the kalasha, I'm not sure of the 'official' architectural terminology in English for the other two parts (the sources I have with me at the moment use 'tower' or 'superstructure' for the shikhara, and I have seen the term 'ring-stone' used by Indologist Stella Kramsrisch in reference to the aamalaka. ________________________________ Kristen Hardy, student of Religion and Sanskrit University of Manitoba e-mail: umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca ________________________________ From martinez at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Fri Oct 17 15:17:16 1997 From: martinez at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Javier Martinez) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 16:17:16 +0100 Subject: Sem: Armenisch / Armenio/ Armenian Message-ID: <161227033128.23782.6808444583314844593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message has been sent to Linguist List, Indoeuropean, Indology and HISTLING. Apologies for cross-postings! ------------- Einladung zu einem Blockseminar von Jos Weitenberg, Universitdt Leiden, Einf|hrung ins Armenische 14.-18. September 1998 10.00 bis 17.00 Uhr tdglich Anmeldung und Information: Prof. Dr. M. Meier-Br|gger, Seminar f|r Vergleichende und Indogermanische Sprachwissenschaft Fabeckstra_e 7 D-14195 Berlin Tel.: +49- 30- 838 5028 Fax: +49- 30- 838 4207 email: drmeier at zedat.fu-berlin.de _____________ TITUS: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/neu.htm From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Fri Oct 17 20:21:32 1997 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 16:21:32 -0400 Subject: Two items Message-ID: <161227033136.23782.573095575356025292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are two items from the Agora Newsletter: ************************************************ Foreign Accents The Easy Way!... But Which One? A Scottish woman went to bed with a headache and woke up speaking with a South African accent according to a British doctor (Reuters 10/9/97). Instead of her Scottish brogue, the woman had a different voice with an intonation more similar to that in Cape Town, South Africa. Doctors claim she is suffering from Foreign Accent Syndrome (FAS), a condition for which there are less than 20 reported cases in the past. In Takayama et. al.Os discussion of FAS ("A case of foreign accent syndrome without aphasia caused by a lesion of the left precentral gyrus", _Neurology_ 1993;43:1361-1363) the case of a right-handed, 44-year-old woman, a native Japanese, is presented. ODisposition and inversion of pitch accents and appearance of unnecessary stress accents made her speech sound foreign, like that of Korean. MRI demonstrated an infarction in the middle fifth of the posterior lateral aspect of the left precentral gyrus. Limited motor cortex damage causes FAS without dysarthria, apraxia of speech, or aphasia.O Other cases are cited such as the Massachusetts woman who walked away from a car accident speaking with a French accent, an English speaker sounding Nordic, and another American sounding Eastern European, Slavic, French, Dutch, or Scandinavian. ************************************************ English Name Offensive to Turkish Student Here is some food for thought as we move toward the Thanksgiving season. M. Gokhan Dalgic writes in a Boston Globe editorial section on 9/27/97: "I, and 70 million others, are proud of our country "Turkiye." Perhaps you are not familiar with the word, because this is the name of my country in Turkish, not in English. I am a student studying English in Boston. Every time I had a look at a restaurant or cafe menu, I feel insulted because the English meaning of my country's name is listed as the name of a sandwich or a meal. I don't want you to change the names of your sandwiches or meals, but I want you and all people speaking English, please to say and write "Turkiye" (pronounced TUR as in turn, KI as in key, YE as in yell) when you are talking about my country. This is not only my wish but it is the wish of all Turks that people refer to their country this way." ...and you thought the people on Uranus had it bad. *********************************************** Set your Web Bookmark to the INTERACTIVE VERSION of this newsletter: http://agoralang.com/agora/agoranews_current.html All Agora Newsletters are also archived under the Agora Newsletter item of Agora's top level menu. If you do not already subscribe to this newsletter, just send a message to majordomo at agoralang.com, containing the single line: subscribe agoranews in the body of the message. THE AGORA LANGUAGE MARKETPLACE Please visit us often! http://agoralang.com/ From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 17 11:43:22 1997 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 17:13:22 +0530 Subject: Terminology for conical structure on top of temples Message-ID: <161227033122.23782.1511817562179139298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone advise me the term used in Sanskrit "and" English for the conical structure on the top of (Garbhagrha of) temples as usually found in northern India ? Thanks in advance, Surya P. Mittal surya at pobox.com From jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK Fri Oct 17 17:31:04 1997 From: jhr at ELIDOR.DEMON.CO.UK (John Richards) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 18:31:04 +0100 Subject: Asktavakra Gita revised translation Message-ID: <161227033134.23782.18390037831646016956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those to whom it may be of interest - I have considerably corrected and improved my translation of the Ashravakra Gita, and the new version is now on the Indology site. I would be grateful if those who have copied the old version to other sites would replace it with the new one. ATB John -- John H Richards jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 17 17:40:00 1997 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 22:40:00 +0500 Subject: Tamil aaytam Message-ID: <161227033132.23782.13705133192696391740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:54 17/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dr. Iravatham Mahadevan will be the ideal choice to know about >aaytam in early tamil orthography. He can be reached at Institute >of Asian studies, Madras. I hear that he is writing a book on >early Tamil orthograpy. Atleast from I century BC, we have short >tamil inscriptions. Tamil corpus of medieval inscriptions is quite >impressive. > >Dr. S. Raju (Head, Dept. of epigraphy, Tamil university, Thanjavur >613005) and others will be able to tell about aaytam in medieval Tamil. > >There are some papers on aaytam in World Tamil conf. proceedings. >May be somebody under the guidance of Prof. V. I. Sunramoniam, >Univ. of Kerala or some other Indian university has an M.A., or >Ph.D thesis on aaytam?! > >N. Ganesan Many thanks for your suggestions and those of Sudalaimuthu. I have read evrything about aaytam (PSSasty, Kuiper, ACSekhar, Balasubramanian, et.). None of these studies address the questions I have asked. I am in touch with Iravatam Mahadevan. All he said was that aaytam occurs only from Medieval Tamil. It has no symbol in Tamil Brahmi. My paper gives all the information that you and Palani have said and more. But I need more. Can VSRajam be rached by e-mail? if so I will appreciate. PDr laryngeal is not in all respedts the Tamil aaytam. Ta. aaytam is a relic reflex of PDlaryngeal *H. I extended the phonological behaviour broadly attested in the case of OTa. aaytam to other cases where even OTa. lost the reflexes of PDr *H, for instance in the numeral for "3", muH-, muu-,muu-nRu. It occurred also before voiced stops (cf. muppaHtu, munnuuRu. Tamil Linguists have not thought of the aaytam from a comparative point of view. Tamil is not Proto-Dravidian. It is a descendant of the Southern branch of Dravidian which has preserved some arhaic features in its early literary works. Most traditional Tamil scholars hardly see the difference between the two. Sinceerely, BhK. From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Oct 18 02:43:31 1997 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 22:43:31 -0400 Subject: Two items Message-ID: <161227033142.23782.9324036062186189934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/17/97 6:06:07 PM, you wrote: >Brian Akers wrote: > >>...and you thought the people on Uranus had it bad. > >A pity for all those tasteful Klingon jokes but, if >I'm not mistaken, the "educated" pronunciation has >got the stress on the 1st syllable and an almost >silent A (not a long A) on the 2nd syllable (rhymes >with "obscurin' us") > I didn't write it; it was part of the newsletter. Brian From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Fri Oct 17 13:56:12 1997 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 22:56:12 +0900 Subject: 'Psychologizing Hindus' Message-ID: <161227033127.23782.999987383556390931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:19:18 -0400 Mittal Sushil > wrote: > > >>> 2nd Announcement and Call for Papers > . . . .review, explore, and reinterpret the ways 'Western' psychology has > interpreted Hindus and Hinduism and make new proposals. > > Hindus and Hinduism according to "Western" psychology: the most detailed > current interpretation (in my view unavoidably problematic in its > generalizations, though well-intended) has been developed by an Indian, Sudhir > Kakar (e.g. The Inner World: A Psycho-Analytic Study of Childhood and Society > in India, Delhi 1981; The Colours of Violence, Delhi 1995). Can one speak, > then, of a "Western" psychology which interprets Hindus and Hinduism? In any > case, a critical study of Sudhir Kakar's interpretations (which is beyond my > own competence) would be a 'desideratum' in the planned issue of _International > Journal of Hindu Studies_ on 'Psychologizing Hindus'. > > JH Leaving aside the merits or lack thereof in Kakar's works (by the way, he also co-authored a book with Catherine Clement, where he analyzed the case of a woman in France who had been treated for hystery and Clement analyzed Ramakrishna, I think the German title was "Der Heilige und die Verrueckte" - if not unproblematic, his musings on religion and madness are at least well-written and stimulating) - his training as a psychoanalyst is decidedly 'Western' (he even studied in Vienna, as far as I know), so why should there be any problems counting him amongst "Western" psychologists, in that his theory and also (I presume) his practice largely derive from theories developed in the "West"? Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Fri Oct 17 22:08:06 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 00:08:06 +0200 Subject: Two items Message-ID: <161227033138.23782.9389715390529456582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Brian Akers wrote: >...and you thought the people on Uranus had it bad. A pity for all those tasteful Klingon jokes but, if I'm not mistaken, the "educated" pronunciation has got the stress on the 1st syllable and an almost silent A (not a long A) on the 2nd syllable (rhymes with "obscurin' us") From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sat Oct 18 02:51:43 1997 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 02:51:43 +0000 Subject: Review of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha" Message-ID: <161227033147.23782.14662571370968861895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding reviews of the two volume (a third in press, if I'm not mistaken) collection of essays on the dating of the historical Buddha: Lance Cousins published a very informative review in Buddhists Studies Review (London). I don't, however, have my copy with me so I can't be very specific. BSR publishes two issues a year and it was in 1996 or 1997. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Oct 18 02:34:43 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 04:34:43 +0200 Subject: zankara & parmenides? Message-ID: <161227033140.23782.9054181419976324985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli wrote: >Yes Prof. Donna Giancola (who does not uses Internet), at Suffolk >University (Boston, MA, USA) is writing on it. Has she anything published yet anywhere on this? Thanks also to John Robert Gardner, David Dargie and John Brockington for answering this query. Deussen is a character I would like to know more about (besides reading what he had to say), as he is presumably one of the first to have seriously made this kind of connection at a time when professional philosophers tended to act as if nothing outside of the Western tradition qualified as "real philosophy". Apparently he wrote an autobiography, apparently in German, but I only have seen mention of an English translation published at Madras in 1920, which as apparently must be a pretty hard to find book, seeing that the Library of Congress only has the microfiche of an incomplete copy. Thanks Jacob ps: Sorry about the spelling, it's obviously "zaGkara" or "zaMkara". (in Harvard-Kyoto ?) I have to publicly acknowledge it so I'll remember next time. Can't allow myself to slide into bad habits :) From rospatt at WLINK.COM.NP Sat Oct 18 15:57:24 1997 From: rospatt at WLINK.COM.NP (A. v. Rospatt) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 08:57:24 -0700 Subject: Review of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha" Message-ID: <161227033144.23782.6070726379489225592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be grateful for any reference to reviews (also in other languages than English) of the two volumes of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha" (edited by H. Bechert, G?ttingen 1991 and 1992) which have appeared so far. -- Alexander v. Rospatt Tel.: 00-977-1-271018 Nepal Research Center Fax: 00-977-1-474463 PO Box 180 Kathmandu, Nepal From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Oct 18 07:04:33 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 09:04:33 +0200 Subject: Two items Message-ID: <161227033145.23782.2243909806557917724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You wrote: >I didn't write it; it was part of the newsletter. Woops. I thought it was you commenting on the Turkey complaint. Sorry. Jacob From ibcindia at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Oct 18 11:01:41 1997 From: ibcindia at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 16:01:41 +0500 Subject: Review of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha" In-Reply-To: <3448DC64.3B43@wlink.com.np> Message-ID: <161227033149.23782.5760449689666740652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is one book When Did the Buddha Live : The Controversy on the Dating of the Historical Buddha/ed. by Hein Bechert published in Bibliotheca Indo-Buddhica Series No. 165 by Indian Books Centre,1995. Sunil Gupta On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, A. v. Rospatt wrote: > I would be grateful for any reference to reviews (also in other > languages than English) of the two volumes of "The Dating of the > Historical Buddha" (edited by H. Bechert, Gvttingen 1991 and 1992) which > have appeared so far. > > -- > Alexander v. Rospatt Tel.: 00-977-1-271018 > Nepal Research Center Fax: 00-977-1-474463 > PO Box 180 > Kathmandu, Nepal > From hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Sat Oct 18 22:43:47 1997 From: hueckst at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (RAH) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 17:43:47 -0500 Subject: Multilingual Software from IITM Message-ID: <161227033151.23782.16637895424894833458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists, In the article called "Path-breaking work" by N. Krishnaswamy on pages 83-85 of the 3 October 1997 issue of _Frontline_ there is a description of a multilingual software package that has been developed by students and professors at IIT Chennai. The article mentions the fact that there are many Sanskrit texts in transliterated form available on line, especially at "a Liverpool Website", and it says that "The package has been able to transliterate these texts back into Sanskrit with a remarkable degree of accuracy." Further on, the author of the article gives two URLs where the package is available for downloading and where demos are available. Those URLs are: in India: http://sdlcfsn.cs.iitm.ernet.in and in the US: http://taylor.mc.duke.edu/~rrk (here there is a typo. Don't go to ~rrk, go to ~rkk.) Here is a brief description of what I found at the US site. The program consists of three basic applications: 1) a viewing program that can be used on a web browser, 2) a multilingual line editor which can be used to prepare documents in any language currently available, or any combination of languages, and 3) a print utility that will convert the document you produce with that editor into a PostScript file. The languages currently available are: Sanskrit, Hindi, Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam, Oriya, Bengali, Punjabi, and Gujarati. Non-Indian languages available are: Japanese Hiragana, Hebrew and Greek. Urdu and Arabic, and so I assume Persian, etc. also, are scheduled for inclusion in a year's time. This program has been ported to many commonly used platforms and OSs. It can operate in DOS 3.3 or higher, even with only 512 k memory. It operates in Windows 3.x and Win95, but it seems to be slower than in DOS. It works in a Macintosh machine with a CPU of 68020 or higher. It works in UNIX or LINUX systems, with or without X-Window support. And it has been ported to AIX. I would be interested in the experiences of anyone who has had a chance to use this intriguing software. By the way, there is also an ftp address for downloading: tulip.ee.ndsu.nodak.edu/pub/iitmsw All the best, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies phone 1 204 474-6427 fax 1 204 474-7601 From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Sun Oct 19 11:15:49 1997 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 97 11:15:49 +0000 Subject: Review of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha Message-ID: <161227033153.23782.7444972889653716067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Joel H. Tatelman wrote: >Lance Cousins published a very informative review in Buddhists Studies >Review (London). I don't, however, have my copy with me so I can't be >very specific. BSR publishes two issues a year and it was in 1996 or 1997. Well, actually, it was in JRAS: Cousins, L.S., "The dating of the historical Buddha," _Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society_, 6, 1, 1996, pp. 57-63. Best Wishes Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 524 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Oct 19 21:18:24 1997 From: reimann at UCLINK.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 97 14:18:24 -0700 Subject: Review of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha Message-ID: <161227033156.23782.16608014780302829749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are another two: DEJONG JW. THE DATING OF THE HISTORICAL BUDDHA - ENGLISH AND GERMAN - BECHERT,H. INDO-IRANIAN JOURNAL, 1995 APR, V38 N2:167-169. Pub type: Book Review. GOLZIO KH. [THE DATING OF THE HISTORICAL BUDDHA, PT 2 - GERMAN AND ENGLISH - BECHERT,H]. CENTRAL ASIATIC JOURNAL, 1994, V38 N1:108-111. Language: German. Pub type: Book Review. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 11:15 AM 10/19/97 +0000, Lance Cousins wrote: >Joel H. Tatelman wrote: > >>Lance Cousins published a very informative review in Buddhists Studies >>Review (London). I don't, however, have my copy with me so I can't be >>very specific. BSR publishes two issues a year and it was in 1996 or 1997. > >Well, actually, it was in JRAS: > >Cousins, L.S., "The dating of the historical Buddha," _Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society_, 6, 1, 1996, pp. 57-63. > >Best Wishes > >Lance Cousins > MANCHESTER, UK > >NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: >Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk > From garzilli at SHORE.NET Sun Oct 19 14:09:43 1997 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 97 16:09:43 +0200 Subject: zankara & parmenides? Message-ID: <161227033179.23782.50223677922953989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: > > Enrica Garzilli wrote: > > >Yes Prof. Donna Giancola (who does not uses Internet), at Suffolk > >University (Boston, MA, USA) is writing on it. > > Has she anything published yet anywhere on this? > > Thanks also to John Robert Gardner, David Dargie and John Brockington > for answering this query. > > Deussen is a character I would like to know more about (besides reading > what he had to say), as he is presumably one of the first to have seriously > made this kind of connection at a time when professional philosophers tended > to act as if nothing outside of the Western tradition qualified as "real > philosophy". > > Apparently he wrote an autobiography, apparently in German, but I only have > seen mention of an English translation published at Madras in 1920, which > as apparently must be a pretty hard to find book, seeing that the Library > of Congress only has the microfiche of an incomplete copy. > > Thanks > Jacob > > ps: Sorry about the spelling, it's obviously "zaGkara" or "zaMkara". > (in Harvard-Kyoto ?) I have to publicly acknowledge it so I'll > remember next time. Can't allow myself to slide into bad habits :) Please ask her. I do not know. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Oct 20 08:54:36 1997 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 10:54:36 +0200 Subject: zankara & parmenides? Message-ID: <161227033162.23782.10148710965034534254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 04:34:43 +0200, Jacob Baltuch wrote: >[...] >Apparently he wrote an autobiography, apparently in German, but I only have >seen mention of an English translation published at Madras in 1920, which >as apparently must be a pretty hard to find book, seeing that the Library >of Congress only has the microfiche of an incomplete copy. Deussen's autobiography appeared in 1922 (Leipzig: F.A. Brockhaus) under the title "Mein Leben" ("My Life") and was edited by Erika Rosenthal- Deussen. Roland Steiner e-mail: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de From ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH Mon Oct 20 08:20:02 1997 From: ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH (Ramkumar) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 11:20:02 +0300 Subject: CSX Roman display now available via ITRANS Message-ID: <161227033158.23782.4171927605675534710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members You might be interested to know about the new ITRANS 5.1 version thru which it is very easy to convert the documents in ITRANS encoding to Romanized Sanskrit font. ITRANS 5.1 can also create browseable web pages using XDVNG for devanagari & CS Utopia / Washington Indic Roman fonts for Romanized Sanskrit display. If you would like to see some samples, please check out the following: for roman font, postscript samples ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/roman/ bg-5-r.ps 211 Kb Thu Oct 09 09:46:00 d108-5-r.ps 33 Kb Wed Oct 08 07:23:00 dict-5-all.gif 3 Kb Thu Oct 09 09:18:00 dict-5-all.itx 3 Kb Thu Oct 09 09:17:00 dict-5-all.ps for roman & devanagarii HTML pages ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/html/ alphabet.html 2 Kb Thu Oct 09 09:20:00 atma8.html 5 Kb Thu Oct 09 09:20:00 d108-5.html 6 Kb Thu Oct 09 09:20:00 Sowmya _____________________________________________________________________________ Sowmya The Bhagavad Gita homepage http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ email: soms at geocities.com or ramkumar at batelco.com.bh From ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH Mon Oct 20 08:23:19 1997 From: ramkumar at BATELCO.COM.BH (Ramkumar) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 11:23:19 +0300 Subject: Jaguar Sanskrit documents page Message-ID: <161227033160.23782.8160363463380061387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, The Jaguar sanskrit documents site now has a new web interface. Please see ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/index.html Do let us know of your feedback via ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/feedback1.html Please pass on this message to others who might be interested. Sowmya -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Sowmya The Bhagavad Gita homepage http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ email: soms at geocities.com or ramkumar at batelco.com.bh From jkirk at MICRON.NET Mon Oct 20 18:23:07 1997 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 12:23:07 -0600 Subject: Norwegian TV search Message-ID: <161227033173.23782.8250290679075447076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I nominate Madhu Kishwar, founder of Manushi, a pioneer women's collective which has done more good for women in India than most other organizations. She's in this country for the moment. Their journal, Manushi, is on the web. Joanna Kirkpatrick From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Mon Oct 20 16:38:55 1997 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 12:38:55 -0400 Subject: ADvice In-Reply-To: <19971020152048494.AAB557@PPP155.internet.no> Message-ID: <161227033167.23782.9369339029529353257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How about Shri Pandurang Athawle, who has uplifted life of thousands by his swadhyay and teaching of Gita. He recently received Templeton Award. From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Oct 20 21:01:47 1997 From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 14:01:47 -0700 Subject: Norwegian TV search In-Reply-To: <344BA18B.568C@micron.net> Message-ID: <161227033175.23782.12565509527462779197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree. Another choice could be Shyam Benegal who has made meaningful movies. On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, jkirkpatrick wrote: > I nominate Madhu Kishwar, founder of Manushi, a pioneer women's > collective which has done more good for women in India than most other > organizations. She's in this country for the moment. Their journal, > Manushi, is on the web. > > Joanna Kirkpatrick > From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Mon Oct 20 15:20:52 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 17:20:52 +0200 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033163.23782.6184413516942025737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear netters! A Norwegian TV journalist is planning a series of programs from South Asia. He is looking for good stories. These should concern individuals who have done outstanding things ("success stories"), and the stories should have a humanitarian touch. Nor necessarily Mother Teresas, but people who have made significant contributions to their communities. Does anybody have some good suggestions? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Mon Oct 20 21:30:07 1997 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 17:30:07 -0400 Subject: Norwegian TV search In-Reply-To: <344BA18B.568C@micron.net> Message-ID: <161227033177.23782.5905170022314227691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I nominate Madhu Kishwar, founder of Manushi, a pioneer women's >collective which has done more good for women in India than most other >organizations. She's in this country for the moment. Their journal, >Manushi, is on the web. > >Joanna Kirkpatrick Please provide the address. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From aditya at SMART1.NET Mon Oct 20 17:38:14 1997 From: aditya at SMART1.NET (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 17:38:14 +0000 Subject: ADvice In-Reply-To: <19971020152048494.AAB557@PPP155.internet.no> Message-ID: <161227033171.23782.12145203103321339218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse has on Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:20:52 +0200 written as follows: >Dear netters! > >A Norwegian TV journalist is planning a series of programs from South Asia. >He is looking for good stories. These should concern individuals who have >done outstanding things ("success stories"), and the stories should have a >humanitarian touch. Nor necessarily Mother Teresas, but people who have made >significant contributions to their communities. Does anybody have some good >suggestions? > I would suggest going to Atheist Center in Vijaywada which is doing excellent humanitarian work. -- Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra e-mail:a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: RADICALISM, n. The conservatism of to-morrow injected into the affairs of to-day. From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Mon Oct 20 16:50:33 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 17:50:33 +0100 Subject: Review of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha" Message-ID: <161227033165.23782.2084463091730115582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are four more reviews: R. Gombrich in Goettingische Gelehrte Anzeigen 247, Jg. 1994: 55-64. J.W. de Jong in Indo-Iranian Journal 34 (1994): 66-71. A.K. Narain in J. of the Int. Ass. of Buddhist Studies 16 (1993): 187-201. V.C. Srivastava in The Indian Journal of Buddhist Studies 6 (1994): 90-95. There are certainly more, but I have no complete list. Georg v.Simson >I would be grateful for any reference to reviews (also in other >languages than English) of the two volumes of "The Dating of the >Historical Buddha" (edited by H. Bechert, G?ttingen 1991 and 1992) which >have appeared so far. > >-- >Alexander v. Rospatt Tel.: 00-977-1-271018 >Nepal Research Center Fax: 00-977-1-474463 >PO Box 180 >Kathmandu, Nepal From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Mon Oct 20 18:21:17 1997 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 19:21:17 +0100 Subject: ADvice In-Reply-To: <19971020152048494.AAB557@PPP155.internet.no> Message-ID: <161227033169.23782.17857266973973393699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 20-oct-97 schreef Lars Martin Fosse: >Dear netters! >A Norwegian TV journalist is planning a series of programs from South Asia. >He is looking for good stories. These should concern individuals who have >done outstanding things ("success stories"), and the stories should have a >humanitarian touch. Nor necessarily Mother Teresas, but people who have made >significant contributions to their communities. Does anybody have some good >suggestions? >Best regards, >Lars Martin Fosse My favorites are Periyar (Ramasami Naicker), Ambedkar and Jack Preger (Calcutta Rescue Fund) -Erik Hoogcarspel From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Oct 21 02:35:21 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 19:35:21 -0700 Subject: Norwegian TV search In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033183.23782.13997891570640320155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What about Urvashi Vaid? I don't know whether she has done any "great" humanitarian work, but I suppose for being the leading spokeswoman (er, should I say spokes-person?) for gay and lesbian "awareness", and being an Indian at that, a story about her and her work could possibilly be worthwhile. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From Mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU Tue Oct 21 02:12:19 1997 From: Mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Mehta, Shailendra) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 21:12:19 -0500 Subject: Advice - Jaipur Foot Message-ID: <161227033181.23782.8171496218898680922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars, How about Masterji (Om Prakash Sharma) a teacher of woodworking who designed the Jaipur foot at the Mahavir Vikalang Samiti ? This prosthetic device, made entirely from local materials like PVC pipes and recyled tires, has been fitted free of charge to hundreds of thousands of people worldwide, including thousands of victims of landmines from Cambodia to Africa and Latin America. They fitted over a thousand people in Kabul just before the Taliban took over and were then evacuated to chants of Hindustan Zindabad! In fact, they were the last foreigners to be evacuated out of Kabul. The former Mayor of Manila, among others uses it, even though he, as one of the richest men in Manila has access to the best technology worldwide. Even he was fitted free of charge, replacing his American leg, which he could not use for swimming. (He had lost his leg in a terrorist attack). Truly a remarkable technology and one of the best kept secrets in the world, outside of India of course, where everyone has heard of it. There is a very nice audio tape made by Daniel Zwerdling of PBS on Masterji, outlining how he came upon the idea. Best regards, Shailendra Raj Mehta mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu From jkirk at MICRON.NET Tue Oct 21 03:39:31 1997 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk@micron.net\) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 21:39:31 -0600 Subject: Manushi URL Message-ID: <161227033185.23782.13985980940673754071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Their URL is www.arbornet.org/~manushi/ Scroll far down and find sub. info contacts in Canada, UK, USA and Australia. At first my server bounced it back, tried again and got it. Joanna From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Tue Oct 21 13:50:57 1997 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 09:50:57 -0400 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033197.23782.11357142355302603048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars: In few days I will try to provide more information on Shri Athawle ( He is popularly known as DADA=grand father). Thank you. Jay From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Oct 21 08:51:39 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 09:51:39 +0100 Subject: Review of "The Dating of the Historical Buddha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033187.23782.10474835205566379646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I intend to make a copy of Lance's important review article available on the INDOLOGY site before too long. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From jagat at POLYINTER.COM Tue Oct 21 13:57:02 1997 From: jagat at POLYINTER.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 09:57:02 -0400 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033199.23782.16872666035129899697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> India Today carried a full page article on P. Athawle, March 11, 1997, p.93, after he was awarded the Templeton prize. Jan At 15:27 97-10-21 +0200, you wrote: >At 12:38 20.10.97 -0400, you wrote: >>How about Shri Pandurang Athawle, who has uplifted life of thousands by his >>swadhyay and teaching of Gita. He recently received Templeton Award. > >Thank you for the suggestion. Would you know where I could find more data >about him? > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > From jagat at POLYINTER.COM Tue Oct 21 14:04:37 1997 From: jagat at POLYINTER.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 10:04:37 -0400 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033200.23782.16087922054542535853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Christopher Queen's (ed.) volume of essays on Engaged Buddhism, you may find an article on TBMSG, an organization based in the Mahar Buddhists who converted at Ambedkar's instigation. Under the banner of 'right livelihood', it is engaged in organizing these poorest members of society into cooperatives and training them in various trades. It is fascinating to note that TBMSG has its roots in the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, based in Great Britain. Jan. From jkirk at MICRON.NET Tue Oct 21 16:20:12 1997 From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk@micron.net\) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 10:20:12 -0600 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033207.23782.16138022275113887682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read an article about him in the magazine HINDUISM TODAY, but don't have that issue. To contact the magazine, who would know how to reach him, see the following URL: www.HinduismToday.kauai.hi.us Joanna Kirkpatrick ************************************8> > >How about Shri Pandurang Athawle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you know where I could find more data > about him? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > From thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV Tue Oct 21 14:20:42 1997 From: thakarj at BOX-T.NIH.GOV (Jay Thakar) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 10:20:42 -0400 Subject: ADvice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033202.23782.2902916327003140788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste: More information on Shri Pandurang Athawle may be obtain from the web pages. The address is http://www.templeton.org. Thank you. Jay From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Oct 21 15:40:20 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 10:40:20 -0500 Subject: Mahadevan Message-ID: <161227033205.23782.3248466230673590696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sometime ago in the flurry of Tamil discussions was a mention of Mahadevan and his work on the Indus Script. I am told he's in Madras, and I wonder if anyone knows an e-mail for him or--in absence thereof--the necessary contact information? TYIA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 21 15:14:25 1997 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 11:14:25 -0400 Subject: AOS publication announcement Message-ID: <161227033204.23782.16905830437828432087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was asked to forward this to the INDOLOGY list by Prof. Stanley Insler. Regards, David Magier --------------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:59:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Stanley Insler Dear David, Would you kindly forward the message below to the Indology list?... Thanks, Stanley ------------------------------------------------------------------ The American Oriental Society announces the publication of A RGVEDIC WORD CONCORDANCE Compiled and edited by Alexander Lubotsky This monumental 2-volume work (xii + 1667 pages) lists every word of the Rgveda in its contextual verse line (pada), including all instances of preverbs, particles and pronouns. The Concord- ance offers an invaluable tool for students of Vedic syntax, lexi- cography and verse composition, and its clear arrangement affords a handy conspectus of the linguistic and poetic practices of the ancient bards of India. An indispensable work for all Indologists and Indoeuropeanists! A Rgvedic Concordance is published as AOS Series Volumes 82 & 83 (ISBN 0-940490-12-9 and 0-940490-13-7). Price for the set is $125.00. Sold only as a set. Please order from: Eisenbrauns P O Box 275 Winona Lake, IN 46590 USA From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 21 18:21:24 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 13:21:24 -0500 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033213.23782.3605281818146589854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suggest that subscribers use other forums for "finding" people and request the moderator to not permit these messages not related to indology... Anyway..There are numerous people who have given their lives for helping others. I would say the world is getting to be a really sorry place if the only qualification for Ms. Vaid to be considered a humanitarian is that she is gay ??????? Sudhir. S. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Oct 21 18:29:08 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 13:29:08 -0500 Subject: Indian computing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033216.23782.16938051820019386936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are a great deal of such places. Some time ago I gathered what seemed the best collection of links-- and links-to-links --Dominik's INdology Page is an ideal start and is included at: http://vedavid.org/methtech.html Happy hunting. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > 1. Does anyone know of places on the net where I can find the various > official specs relevant to computing & Indian languages (ISCII, etc.) > > 3. What's the 8-bit standard that has the characters needed for translit- > teration (letters with macrons, underdots, overdots, etc.)? (Incidentally > does Unicode make room for such characters? where do I find the Unicode > spec?) > > 2. Is there a reference book for computing & Indian languages (I'm thinking > of something along to lines of what Ken Lunde's "Understanding Japanese > Information Processing" is for Japanese) > > Thanks > Jacob > From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Tue Oct 21 13:27:37 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 15:27:37 +0200 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033189.23782.8981620115308448398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:38 20.10.97 -0400, you wrote: >How about Shri Pandurang Athawle, who has uplifted life of thousands by his >swadhyay and teaching of Gita. He recently received Templeton Award. Thank you for the suggestion. Would you know where I could find more data about him? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Tue Oct 21 13:30:13 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 15:30:13 +0200 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033191.23782.567513593722606266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >My favorites are Periyar (Ramasami Naicker), Ambedkar and Jack Preger >(Calcutta Rescue Fund) >-Erik Hoogcarspel Thank you for the suggestions, Erik. I believe Ambedkar is dead, but where can I find more info on the two others? (I need addresses and some more data on their activities). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Tue Oct 21 13:35:23 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 15:35:23 +0200 Subject: Advice - Jaipur Foot Message-ID: <161227033193.23782.3266540672756594981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Shailendra Raj Mehta >mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu Thank you! This sounds very promising. It seems to be very much the stuff the the TV reporter likes! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO Tue Oct 21 13:36:29 1997 From: l.m.fosse at INTERNET.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 15:36:29 +0200 Subject: Norwegian TV search Message-ID: <161227033195.23782.18226519485480312725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:35 20.10.97 -0700, you wrote: >What about Urvashi Vaid? I don't know whether she has done any "great" >humanitarian work, but I suppose for being the leading spokeswoman (er, >should I say spokes-person?) for gay and lesbian "awareness", and being >an Indian at that, a story about her and her work could possibilly be >worthwhile. Thank you for the suggestion. Would you know how I could find her address? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 22 01:01:02 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 18:01:02 -0700 Subject: ADvice Message-ID: <161227033218.23782.14537906454230722580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, May I also suggest for you to take a look at the following gentlemen, /ladies in connection with your documentary shooting..... 1. Baba Amte- A social worker who has been nominated for the Noble Prize, he helps rehabilitate leprosy patients. He has an Ashram in Eastern Maharashtra( Chandrapur, I think) and has won a lot of recognition for his work. 2. Annasaheb Hazare- This gentleman helped start co-operative farming in Western Maharashtra, helped get illiterate and exploited farmers get off the bottle and do something useful with their lives. I remember seeing a documentary of sorts on Doordarshan on him. 3.Sunderlal Bahuguna- started the "Chipko" movement in the Garhwal area in U.P., arguably Indias first grass roots movement in terms of environmental protection. The name of the movement comes from the fact that the volunteers would go and hug the trees and physically prevent the tree from being cut down( i.e. Hindi "Chipakna"- literally, sticking)...a novel application of Gandhi's Satyagraha technique. 4. Ela Ramesh Bhatt- Ahmedabad based social worker, contribution in terms of organizing women workers organizations, won the Magsasay ward some time ago. 5. Mahasweta Devi- well known Bengali authoress, known for work among Adivasis, winner of the Magsasasy ward AND the Jnanpith Award( for literary achievement in 1996)....no dearth of material about her, Gayatri Chakravarty Spivak, the Columbia U based professor( the expert on Sub-Altern studies) is her official translator from Bengali into English. 6. Outside India- In Bangladesh, you have the the story of the Grameen Bank- a small co-operative bank that has helped small scale farmers become succesful, stresses mainly on participation by women, think that ABC made a documentary about them some time ago, again no dearth of material about them..... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From c.j.oort at PI.NET Tue Oct 21 17:10:14 1997 From: c.j.oort at PI.NET (C.J. Oort) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 19:10:14 +0200 Subject: Norwegian TV search Message-ID: <161227033209.23782.8465333700321410384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I nominate Madhu Kishwar, founder of Manushi, a pioneer women's >collective which has done more good for women in India than most other >organizations. She's in this country for the moment. Their journal, >Manushi, is on the web. > >Joanna Kirkpatrick I should like to second this nomination. Manushi was the first magazine in India (both in English and in Hindi) that tackled the problems of women in India. Marianne S. Oort, Kern Institute, Leiden, The Netherlands C.J. Oort tel: 31-(0)70-5116960 fax: 31-(0)70-5140832 From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Oct 21 17:39:28 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 19:39:28 +0200 Subject: Indian computing? Message-ID: <161227033211.23782.12763283271373283956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Does anyone know of places on the net where I can find the various official specs relevant to computing & Indian languages (ISCII, etc.) 3. What's the 8-bit standard that has the characters needed for translit- teration (letters with macrons, underdots, overdots, etc.)? (Incidentally does Unicode make room for such characters? where do I find the Unicode spec?) 2. Is there a reference book for computing & Indian languages (I'm thinking of something along to lines of what Ken Lunde's "Understanding Japanese Information Processing" is for Japanese) Thanks Jacob From sg at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 22 05:18:16 1997 From: sg at COMPUSERVE.COM (Swami Gitananda) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 01:18:16 -0400 Subject: Quotes in Sukthankar Message-ID: <161227033226.23782.9407620987918691443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, I'm hoping somebody can help me locate the source of two quotes that Sukthankar mentions in his "On the Meaning of the Mahabharata". I haven't been able to trace them in spite of my best efforts. The first one is by Matthew Arnold: "the subject of the epic poem must be some one great complex action." I have searched his complete works that the Univ. of Chicago put out, unsuccessfully. The second one is by Hopkins, a little longer: "The sociological data of the epic period show that society had advanced from a period when rude manners were justifiable and tricks were considered worthy of a warrior to one when a finer morality had begun to temper the crude royal and military spirit. This is sufficient explanation of that historical anomaly found in the Great Epic, the endeavour on the part of the priestly redactors to palliate and excuse the sins of their heroes." Again, I have searched the obvious sources, such as "The Great Epic of India", "The Social and Military Position of the Ruling Class in Ancient India", and a number of articles, but no luck. Any help in locating these quotes, or any leads, will be *greatly* appreciated. Thank you very much in advance, Swami Gitananda From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Oct 22 08:53:01 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 01:53:01 -0700 Subject: Urvashi Vaid. In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971021182124.00922cdc@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227033233.23782.10468340884312623343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > Anyway..There are numerous people who have given their lives for helping > others. I would say the world is getting to be a really sorry place > if the only qualification for Ms. Vaid to be considered a humanitarian is that > she is gay ??????? Mr. Subrahmanya, The world is getting to be a sorry place because people don't take the time to educate themselves about certain issues before raising their voice against them. You might be unaware of the situation of homosexuals and homosexuality in India, but India has one of the largest populations of homosexuals and is host to perhaps the largest rampant AIDS epidemic. It is certainly amazing that an Indian woman, a lesbian no less!, has worked to assist homosexuals, assisted in AIDS education, AIDS prevention, and safer-sex crusades. In my pettiness I would consider such actions to be humanitarian ones. I am sure that there is much more to Ms. Vaid's cause than merely being lesbian and proud of it. [Many pardons! This thread does not belong on Indology list. No flames, intended. Thanks.] Regards, Anshuman Pandey From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Oct 22 03:01:40 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 05:01:40 +0200 Subject: Indian computing? Message-ID: <161227033220.23782.12490064586385046223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There are a great deal of such places. Some time ago I gathered what >seemed the best collection of links-- and links-to-links --Dominik's >INdology Page is an ideal start If you mean the INDOLOGY pages at Liverpool I've looked through those but found only links for tools not for specs, but maybe I haven't been thorough enough. But maybe you mean some personal Indology (as opposed to INDOLOGY) pages of his wherever he's at? In any case I'll follow your advice and check >http://vedavid.org/methtech.html Thanks again. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Oct 22 03:10:25 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 05:10:25 +0200 Subject: Indian computing? Message-ID: <161227033222.23782.8993923480328947993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: >If you mean the INDOLOGY pages at Liverpool I've looked through those >but found only links for tools not for specs, but maybe I haven't been >thorough enough. But maybe you mean some personal Indology (as opposed >to INDOLOGY) pages of his wherever he's at? Oops, I checked whatever is at www.ucl.ac.uk (why was I thinking Liverpool?). If these are "Dominik's Indology pages" then I've checked them and haven't found what I was looking for, but I'll check them again. Sorry for the con- fusion > >In any case I'll follow your advice and check > >>http://vedavid.org/methtech.html > >Thanks again. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 22 05:56:40 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 06:56:40 +0100 Subject: Indian computing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033228.23782.15478231106600006490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The INDOLOGY web pages (www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw) do not carry links to the standards you are asking about, Jacob. I did write a paper on the transliteration of Nagari last year, at a time when I was involved in a British Standards Committee on this subject. I've taken away the links to that essay, but it is still on the server if you want to look at it (www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/t/t.html). The BSI work has passed into the able hands of Tony Stone, who has numerous important links on his web site at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm He also moderates the listserv discussion on the transliteration of Indian languages. I suggest you contact him (email link on his home page). All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 22 06:00:17 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 07:00:17 +0100 Subject: Finding people (was Re: ADvice) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971021182124.00922cdc@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227033231.23782.5886382152034937755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > I suggest that subscribers use other forums for "finding" people and > request the moderator to not permit these messages not related to > indology... One of the useful things INDOLOGY has always offered is a way to track down colleagues, publications, and so forth. I would not wish to curtail that function. The aim of INDOLOGY is to facilitate classical Indian studies. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Oct 22 06:58:46 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 08:58:46 +0200 Subject: Finding people (was Re: ADvice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033239.23782.13569830248442548557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 8:00 +0200 22/10/97, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: > >> I suggest that subscribers use other forums for "finding" people and >> request the moderator to not permit these messages not related to >> indology... > >One of the useful things INDOLOGY has always offered is a way to track >down colleagues, publications, and so forth. I would not wish to curtail >that function. > >The aim of INDOLOGY is to facilitate classical Indian studies. I find Dominik was himself very *moderated*, not quoting the next sentence, perhaps the worst: > I would say the world is getting to be a really sorry place if the only > qualification for Ms. Vaid to be considered a humanitarian is that > she is gay ??????? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Oct 22 14:28:39 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 09:28:39 -0500 Subject: Urvashi Vaid. Message-ID: <161227033235.23782.3670781003449994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Pandey: There are quite a few people who are working for the betterment of aids victims in India. Just because, Ms. Vaid is a gay person, she should not be made more equal than others. If her WORK for the betterment of society qualifies her for any award/recognition she SHOULD get it. Not because she is a gay or a woman. Sorry for the postings unrelated to Indology. Subrahmanya >You might be unaware of the situation of homosexuals and homosexuality in >India, but India has one of the largest populations of homosexuals and is >host to perhaps the largest rampant AIDS epidemic. It is certainly amazing >that an Indian woman, a lesbian no less!, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >has worked to assist homosexuals, assisted in AIDS education, AIDS prevention, >and safer-sex crusades. In my pettiness I would consider such actions to be >humanitarian ones. > >I am sure that there is much more to Ms. Vaid's cause than merely being >lesbian and proud of it. From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Oct 22 19:47:00 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 12:47:00 -0700 Subject: Indian computing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033246.23782.11976036217734105720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > 1. Does anyone know of places on the net where I can find the various > official specs relevant to computing & Indian languages (ISCII, etc.) Perhaps you could try finding these specification at the Unicode homepage: . I do recall seeing the ISCII specs somewhere, but I can't remember the site off the top of my head. I'll dig around for it and get the URL to you. > > 3. What's the 8-bit standard that has the characters needed for translit- > teration (letters with macrons, underdots, overdots, etc.)? (Incidentally > does Unicode make room for such characters? where do I find the Unicode > spec?) There is no 8-bit "standard" for the transliteration of Indic script as of yet. There is a working group of the International Standards Organization which is currently developing a standardized 8-bit transliteration. The working group is actually an electronic discussion forum called "conv-dev". You can join the group by sending a subscribe message to , with subject "subscribe conv-dev". There is the Classical Sanskrit/Classical Sanskrit eXtended (CS/CSX) 8-bit encoding. The documentation and DOS screen drivers for CS/CSX are found in the INDOLOGY archives in the file "iass_documentation.zip". > 2. Is there a reference book for computing & Indian languages (I'm thinking > of something along to lines of what Ken Lunde's "Understanding Japanese > Information Processing" is for Japanese) As far as I am aware there is no such text for Indian languages. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Oct 22 18:20:12 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 13:20:12 -0500 Subject: Finding people (was Re: ADvice) Message-ID: <161227033243.23782.12910101899312838338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please tell me what is "worst" about my statement. My idea is that Ms. Vaid should be judged by what "work" she has done among the needy people and not by what her lifestyle preference is. > I find Dominik was himself very *moderated*, not quoting the next >sentence, perhaps the worst: >> I would say the world is getting to be a really sorry place if the only >> qualification for Ms. Vaid to be considered a humanitarian is that >> she is gay ??????? > > Regards, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Oct 22 18:29:54 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 13:29:54 -0500 Subject: Finding people (was Re: ADvice) Message-ID: <161227033244.23782.11640563778521524396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry...I did not mean to post the previous message to the list...It was a mistake. Sorry once again.. Subrahmanya From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 22 15:34:16 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 16:34:16 +0100 Subject: Urvashi Vaid. THREAD CLOSED In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971022142839.008e27a0@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227033237.23782.5105805535966688157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Sorry for the postings unrelated to Indology. This discussion has reached a point where it would be better carried out privately. No more on INDOLOGY, please. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From A.Raman at MASSEY.AC.NZ Wed Oct 22 04:27:19 1997 From: A.Raman at MASSEY.AC.NZ (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 17:27:19 +1300 Subject: Katapayadi paper Message-ID: <161227033224.23782.10142444232772537232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi My paper on the Katapayadi technique, Indian musicology and modern Hashing, which I promised to some of you has seen ink at last, after several postponements. You can find it in IEEE Annals of the history of computing, 19, 4, pp.49-52, Oct-Dec 1997. - & From jehms at GLOBALXS.NL Wed Oct 22 17:42:27 1997 From: jehms at GLOBALXS.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 18:42:27 +0100 Subject: ADvice In-Reply-To: <19971021133013019.AAA148@PPP120.internet.no> Message-ID: <161227033241.23782.2938089154087713047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 21-oct-97 schreef Lars Martin Fosse: >> >> >>My favorites are Periyar (Ramasami Naicker), Ambedkar and Jack Preger >>(Calcutta Rescue Fund) >>-Erik Hoogcarspel >Thank you for the suggestions, Erik. I believe Ambedkar is dead, but where >can I find more info on the two others? (I need addresses and some more data >on their activities). Periyar is also dead, there are several books about him f.i. by Anita Diehl, Scandinavian University Books, Munksgaard Kopenhagen 1977 ISBN 91-24-27645-6 Jack Preger is the founder of the Calcutta Rescue Fund, he's been in jail several times for giving medical help to the poor in Calcutta, but has found some recognition at last. I don't know what the address is the Calcutta Rescue Fund, I'm sorry -erik From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Wed Oct 22 20:05:38 1997 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (Gerard Huet) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 22:05:38 +0200 Subject: Indian computing? Message-ID: <161227033248.23782.7178502883126512319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Is there a reference book for computing & Indian languages There is: "Natural Language Processing - A Paninian Perspective" by Akshar Bharati, Vineet Chaitanya and Rajeev Sangal, Prentice Hall of India, New-Delhi, 1995. It is about computational linguistics, inspired by Pananian notions to deal with indian languages. This is work pursued at IIT Kanpur. Gerard Huet From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Oct 23 09:28:14 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 02:28:14 -0700 Subject: Indian computing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033253.23782.8848539708581147808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > See also > > _Samvit: Sanskrit and computer-based linguistics. Proceedings of the > seminar on `knowledge-representation in Sanskrit & allied semantic > theories', Bangalore March 6-7, 1993_ edited by M A S Rajan and S H > Srinivasan (Melkote: Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote 571431, > Karnataka, India, 1993). > > _Computerizing cultures_ edited by Baidyanath Saraswati (New Delhi: Indira > Gandhi National Centre for the Arts & New Age International (P) Ltd., > 1995). ISBN 81-224-0824-9. Dominik, Would you happen to know whether these books are still in print, or, of a distributor who sells them? Regards, Anshuman Pandey From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Oct 23 09:45:04 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 02:45:04 -0700 Subject: Indian computing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033254.23782.5849391800813027533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are a few more references to computing and Indian languages & linguistics: 1. Akshara 94 on Information Technology Applications in Language, Script & Speech (1994 : New Delhi, India). _Proceedings of "Akshara 94" on Information Technology Applications in Language, Script & Speech_ : February 25-26, 1994, New Delhi / chief editor, S.S. Agrawal ; co-editor, Subas Pani. ; 1st ed. ; New Delhi : BPB Publications, 1994. 2. _Sanskrit and computer : proceedings of the U.G.C. national seminar_ / edited by Keshab Chandra Dash. ; 1st ed. ; Delhi : Pratibha Prakashan, 1995. 3. _Computer translation of Tamil and other languages_ : a theoretical paradigm / by P.C. Ganeshsundaram. ; Thiruvananthapuram : International School of Dravidian Linguistics, 1991. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Oct 23 13:35:46 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 08:35:46 -0500 Subject: Advice (Periyar) Message-ID: <161227033259.23782.10369398161387290912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> E. V. Ramaswami Naicker (1878-1972) Anita Diehl, Periyar E. V. Ramaswami: a study of the influence of a personality in contemporary South India. Bombay 1978. Periyar's Reading of Ramayana is interesting. See Paula Richman's article in P. Richman (ed.), Many Ramayanas, Univ. of California press. E. V. Ramaswami Periyar, The Ramayana: a true reading. 2nd edition, Trichy, 1972 For situating Periyar in Tamil Nadu's 20th century history and the Dravidian movement, See: Charles A. Ryerson, Regionalism & Religion: The Tamil renaissance and popular Hinduism, CLS, Madras, 1988 Eugene F. Irschick, Tamil revivalism of the 1930s. Univ. of Calif. press, 1986 Hope these references on Periyar are helpful, N. Ganesan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 23 09:05:59 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 10:05:59 +0100 Subject: Indian computing? In-Reply-To: <199710222005.WAA16710@pauillac.inria.fr> Message-ID: <161227033250.23782.15360915361675250833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also _Samvit: Sanskrit and computer-based linguistics. Proceedings of the seminar on `knowledge-representation in Sanskrit & allied semantic theories', Bangalore March 6-7, 1993_ edited by M A S Rajan and S H Srinivasan (Melkote: Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote 571431, Karnataka, India, 1993). _Computerizing cultures_ edited by Baidyanath Saraswati (New Delhi: Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts & New Age International (P) Ltd., 1995). ISBN 81-224-0824-9. These books are not on character sets and encoding, but rather on the application of computers to cultural topics in the Indian context. I just thought I'd mention them. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ebashir at UMICH.EDU Thu Oct 23 14:15:30 1997 From: ebashir at UMICH.EDU (E. Bashir) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 10:15:30 -0400 Subject: Romanized Hindi texts Message-ID: <161227033261.23782.9631542188939310688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am looking for Romanized (either transcribed or transliterated) Hindi texts either anywhere on the Web or in print. I will be grateful for any suggestions as to where to look. Thank you. E. Bashir Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 3070 Frieze Bldg. The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Department Office Phone: (313) 764-8286 (messages only) Personal Office Phone: (313) 936-1847 Fax: (313) 647-0157 Note: Area code changes to 734 effective 12/13/97 From Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Thu Oct 23 10:28:05 1997 From: Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Alan Thew) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 11:28:05 +0100 Subject: bounce problems Message-ID: <161227033257.23782.13572970629154641548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik's original message got trapped by LISTSERV, it looks for `bounce message' info. >?From the example, it seems that the original site is returning mail to the From: field and thus the original sender but not to the list (nothing has shown up on the web). When I've tracked this user down, they will be removed or set NOPOST/NOMAIL . -- Alan Thew alan.thew at liverpool.ac.uk Computing Services,University of Liverpool Fax: +44 151 794-4442 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Apologies to all members for the bounced email from karya@@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in We try to catch these before they get out to the membership, but this one seems to have slipped through. Just delete and ignore. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:15:35 +0530 (IST) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem To: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable The original message was received at Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:15:31 +0530 (IST) from mail02.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.68] ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- fclose: Disc quota exceeded binmail: cannot append to /usr/spool/mail/karya Mail saved in dead.letter 554 ... Service unavailable --PAA32548.877599935/giasbm01.vsnl.net.in-- From warner at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Oct 23 17:05:34 1997 From: warner at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Warner Belanger) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 12:05:34 -0500 Subject: Address: David A. Utz Message-ID: <161227033265.23782.6828417149960108778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I'm looking for either the email or snail mail address of David Utz. Thanks in advance. Warner Belanger From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 23 17:27:20 1997 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 13:27:20 -0400 Subject: Address: David A. Utz In-Reply-To: <199710231705.MAA23020@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227033267.23782.10006878715320482119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hello, >I'm looking for either the email or snail mail address of David Utz. >Thanks in advance. > >Warner Belanger David's street address is: 4841 Hazel Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19143 USA Telephone: 215-472-5640 I do not know whether he uses email, or not. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Oct 23 19:44:46 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 14:44:46 -0500 Subject: Qns. related to Chola era book Message-ID: <161227033269.23782.6866018264183139983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10/22/97 Hello! I am working on Aathinaathan vaLamaDal by JayamkoNDaar from a palmleaf manuscript. The only two known mss. (one at GOML, Madras and other at Perur, near Coimbatore) are used. This 12th century work from the age of the imperial Cholas is beautiful. It praises "kaamam" to be superior to all other purusharththas. >?From this work and a study of inscriptions, it can be determined that Deepangudi near Dindivanam to be the birthplace of JayamkoNDar. U. V. Saminathaiyar & R. Raghavaiyangar have said this also. (But for others, they are not sure whether the village in Dindivanam or in Tanjore District.) This work sheds new light. All 550 lines has "takara varga etukai"! I believe this is the fourth work in Tamil that has the same etukai/prAsam. Tirumangai Alvar's two maDals, TattuvarAyar's kalimaDal are the only other books that have same etukai in the entire gamut of tamil literature. But those maDals are much smaller than JayamkoNDar's work. I have two questions: a) In the parapaksha section, the author criticizes Buddhists as: "tampaciyin vaatai tavira manamtiriyAk kanjcitanaip pOtuceya vENTip putumarutap pUvaTutta pItaka aaTai uTalmUTip pEyttanamaayc caatukamE kallukamE caaturika maalaikaLin ***************************************** pEtakamE enRu pirakaTangkaLe pitaRRip **************************** pOta mutumarattin pon^tilE muttiyinaic cAtippaayt taRkiTan^tu n^iRpaarum," Rough translation: To remove hunger, Buddhists take a food that does not spoil the mind; they use dress whose color is made into orange by boiling cloth with 'marutam' flowers. They always tell "caatukamE, kallukamE, caaturikamE" or a string of variations of these words. They do meditation in the holes of old trees for liberation. >From Jaffna akaraati, kallukam = peru Acai (Big Desire) ( from(?) < kalka = sinful, wicked) caatukam = perungkaayam (stuff used in cooking to add smell) (This meaning does not fit with other two) caaturikam = cuutu (cunning, cheating) (< caatara = clever, flattering, shrewd) May be Buddhism says some thing against Big desire, shrewdness etc., Are there any references to these in Pali or sanskrit literature? Could 'prakaTam" be "piTakam"? Does the piTakas talk anything about "caatukam, kallukam, caaturikam"? Many thanks for any pointers. b) In a section on different types of jobs people do, there are few lines: ", vaarmatatta pOtakattin kaipppukkup poypoy enappukanRu vItiyilkoN TOTuvatum, vETTaviru tangkattuk kaati uraiyaRin^tu kaTTuvatum, kaTTappaTTu Otuvatum," People sit in the trunks of a mad elephant and shout "Lies, untruths" and go in the streets on a parade. In old India, was there a habit like this? Any pointers where it occurred? May be against some philosophical sects? What does virutangam mean? It could be irutangam too, if you treat 'v' as glide acc. to tamil grammar. (vakara uTampaTumey) If it is irutangam, it is 'Double Gold'. The context says destroying virutangam or irutangam. Is it used in medicine or alchemy? Can someone post this for me in RISA list? Any help is deeply appreciated. Sincerely, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov ********************************* More importantly, it is the only Lokayata/Chaarvaaka philosophical book available in tamil. The philosophy is sensual enjoyment. Denies existence of aanma/ rebirth etc., It is beautiful poetry too. 550 lines in kaliveNpaa. About 10-12 lines in total we don't understand. It ridicules Vedanta, Buddha, Jain Kalamukha etc., philosophies. Portrays "inbam" as ulterior svargam. Very interesting, beautiful work. I am laboring along with Kambaraman. Will publish and then people can fill up what we don't understand. Will write more on the ancient, 900 year old philosophical kavithai by Kaviccakkaravartti. Lokayatam is debated and denied by Manimekalai, Sivagnana Siddhiyar, Sivagnaana MaapaaDiyam. But here, JayamkoNDar uses the old tamil custom of maDal ERutal to propagate and defend the Lokayata philosophy. Materialistic and at places sounds scientific. Today's installment of JayamkoNDar's vaLamaDaL: naatan namakkiniya nampi uyirkkuRuti Oti aruLum ulOkaa yatankaaTTum Etuvinaik kaNTaal itamakitam enRuraiyIr; yaatEnum onRum aRiyaa tavaraippOR pEtaiyaraik kaaNil piNangip piTittamukki mEtiyinum veLLaaTTup paalpOtum, minminiyE cOti uTaittuc cuTarOnil, tUmattin cAti neruppin tazalkuLirum, can^tazalum, mEtaku tEnpuLikkum, menkarupum kaikkumenpIr! Ati anAti akAraNa kaariyamaam pEtamapE tappira mANApra mANamenum vaaytaTu maaRRattaal vaaLaa uraikkinRIr; mEtaikaaL! vaaNaaLai vINE kazittatanpin vaatait tanampiTittu vaRkamaRat taRkittup pEtikkum palcamayap peTTavaayk kaTTuraiyaal vEtikkap paTTu viLakkirukkat tIttETik kaataR kalavik kaniyiruppak kAykavarn^tu cEtap paTumcitaTTut tiNNarkAL! munnIrkku naatamum, naaNmalarkku naaRRamum, veNmatikkuc cItamum uNTaakac ceytaaraar? ceytavattaal yaatum payanillai; evvuyirkkum epporuTkum aatal azital iyalpanRO? yaartaTuppaar? kaatalikkum inpamelaam kaivan^ tiTakkaama vEtanaiyai nIkki virakap perun^tavamaam Otap perungkaTalil mUzkiir: oLimatiyin aatapattE nillIr, akaruvuTan taNpanin^Ir mItu pukavIzn^tu mUzkIr; viraikkaLapac cItaveL Lattazun^tIr; tenRaR kaLiRERIr; vItiyilE pOyppukIr; meLLamaLi mElERir; paatakanjcey pUnjcayanap panjcaangka mattimattE kEtamuRa mUzkIr; keTuvIr! ivaiyaRRaal paatiyinum ovvaatu paazvaruttam; meyvaruttam EtEnum inpam viLakkumO engaTku? maatava njaana matanaa kamattilE ..... See his caarvaka philosophy coming here also. ----- End Included Message ----- From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Oct 23 20:56:01 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 16:56:01 -0400 Subject: Tamil Aytam and orthography (was Re: Tamil aaytam) Message-ID: <161227033271.23782.2728401352056471563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-14 02:52:28 EDT, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) writes: << 3. Tolk. sandhi h in muTTiitu, kaRRiitu is a case of reverse spelling. Since h assimilates to the following voiceless stop, the geminate in external (non-case) sandhi is spelt as h+T, or h+R. Phonetically there is no way how the first member of a geminate becomes lenitioned. This was posited as a spelling convention in word sandhi to keep the identity of the conjoined words. >> There is a basic problem with this analysis. The case for "reverse spelling" rests on the assumption that the underlying form for "kahRitu" and "muTTItu" are "kaRRItu" and "muTTItu" respectively. But there is no evidence to indicate this. As any linguist or grammarian does, tolkAppiyar was working with two forms "kaRRItu" and "kahRItu" and he was reconstructing the original conjoining words as "kal" and "tItu" for both. Since, even tolkAppiyar (or any of his predecessors) was not infallible, we could question the reconstruction but not the existence of the two forms. As T. Burrow has observed, "..in view of the general accuracy of Indian alphabets it is usually the best policy to believe that they meant what they wrote." If there existed two forms, "kahRItu" and "kaRRItu", then one cannot posit "kahRItu" as a case of reverse spelling to keep the identity of the conjoined words. Moreover, if one wanted to keep the identity of the original conjoined words, why should one go for a different letter, "h"? One might as well keep the letter in the orginial word "l" or "L". (Malayalam does it anyway.) Also keeping the same letter "h" to indicate different original letters such as "l" or "L" or "v" does not make any sense. Finally, as is clear from V. S. Rajam's discussion of Classical Tamil morphophonemics, the distinction of external sandhi and internal sandhi are irrelevant for Classical Tamil. In that case, how are we to explain the forms pahRi and pan2Ri or ahku and aruku? Are we to assume that these are also cases of reverse spelling where the identity of the root was being preserved? I don't think we can attribute such super-linguistic motives to those poets or scribes. It will be really good if the reconstruction of a PD laryngeal can explain forms like kahRItu, etc., without resorting to the explanation of "reverse spelling". Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 24 00:58:05 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 20:58:05 -0400 Subject: Correction to Tamil Aytam and orthography (was Re: Tamil aaytam) Message-ID: <161227033273.23782.9604663835983481447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-10-23 20:48:03 EDT, I wrote: << There is a basic problem with this analysis. The case for "reverse spelling" rests on the assumption that the underlying form for "kahRitu" and "muTTItu" are "kaRRItu" and "muTTItu" respectively. >> What I should have said here is, "There is a basic problem with this analysis. The case for "reverse spelling" rests on the assumption that the underlying forms for "kahRitu" and "muhTItu" are "kaRRItu" and "muTTItu" respectively." Sorry for the errors. Regards S. Palaniappan From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 23 16:08:24 1997 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh. Krishnamurti) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 21:08:24 +0500 Subject: Mahadevan Message-ID: <161227033263.23782.18185912183896036072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:40 21/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Sometime ago in the flurry of Tamil discussions was a mention of Mahadevan >and his work on the Indus Script. I am told he's in Madras, and I wonder >if anyone knows an e-mail for him or--in absence thereof--the necessary >contact information? > >TYIA > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >John Robert Gardner Obermann Center >School of Religion for Advanced Studies >University of Iowa University of Iowa >319-335-2164 319-335-4034 >http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other >than that of which it is the transformation. Sri I. Mahadevan's postal address is as follows: Door No. 18-A, Plot No. 37/2, IV Seaward Road, Valmiki Nagar, Tiruvanamiyur, Chennai 600041, Tamil Naadu, India. I don't think he has an e-mail address. Bh. Krishnamurti From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Oct 24 09:03:30 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 05:03:30 -0400 Subject: Romanized Hindi texts -Reply Message-ID: <161227033277.23782.4005695571730195891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to the Romanized Bible (which is also probably available from the US Bible Society and those of India and Pakistan as well) you might check out the publications in Romanized Hindustani of the British Indian army. A large and diverse 20th c. corpus is in their magazine for the jawans, Fauji Akhbar. Will post further details later. Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Oct 24 04:36:25 1997 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 14:36:25 +1000 Subject: Romanized Hindi texts Message-ID: <161227033275.23782.6957489728492196256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you are looking for old romanized Hindi/Urdu texts in print I would sugest roman Urdu Bible texts, e.g. "Injil i Muqaddas" (British and Foreign Bible Society, London:1955). Richard Barz Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au >Dear Colleagues, > >I am looking for Romanized (either transcribed or transliterated) Hindi >texts either anywhere on the Web or in print. I will be grateful for any >suggestions as to where to look. Thank you. > > >E. Bashir >Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >3070 Frieze Bldg. >The University of Michigan >Ann Arbor, MI 48109 > >Department Office Phone: (313) 764-8286 (messages only) >Personal Office Phone: (313) 936-1847 >Fax: (313) 647-0157 >Note: Area code changes to 734 effective 12/13/97 From aditya at SMART1.NET Sat Oct 25 14:27:07 1997 From: aditya at SMART1.NET (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 14:27:07 +0000 Subject: Urvashi Vaid. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033279.23782.4338171253766033118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey has on Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:53:01 -0700 written as follows: >You might be unaware of the situation of homosexuals and homosexuality in >India, but India has one of the largest populations of homosexuals and is >host to perhaps the largest rampant AIDS epidemic. It is certainly amazing AIDS is no doubt increasing in India but your contention that India has largest number of homosexuals is just a conjecture on your part unless you can provide any basis. In India AIDS is mostly heterosexually propagated. >that an Indian woman, a lesbian no less!, has worked to assist >homosexuals, assisted in AIDS education, AIDS prevention, and safer-sex Regardless of her country of origin, I am not aware of her having done anything in India for AIDS or lesbianism. She is an activist in USA only where AIDS and homosexuality seem to be intertwined. It is a consequence of initial labeling of AIDS as homosexual problem that is responsible for the disproportionately large funding for this disease at the cost of several diseases such as diabetes that kill many more people worldwide -- Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra e-mail:a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: A conclusion is where you got tired of thinking. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 25 15:18:30 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 16:18:30 +0100 Subject: Urvashi Vaid. THREAD CLOSED In-Reply-To: <3456ff05.9501319@mail.seflin.org> Message-ID: <161227033281.23782.14822764302761279364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This discussion is now closed. Those interested in homosexuality, AIDS, government health policy, women's issues, and so forth -- all most interesting topics -- are encouraged to discuss them privately or in other appropriate forums. There are many such forums on the Internet. INDOLOGY is specifically for the discussion of historical, cultural, linguistic, and related issues as they bear on classical and ancient India. This kind of forum is not widely available elsewhere. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sun Oct 26 17:58:30 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 18:58:30 +0100 Subject: Urvashi Vaid. THREAD CLOSED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033283.23782.9133579550452291206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:18 +0100 25/10/97, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >INDOLOGY is specifically for the discussion of historical, cultural, >linguistic, and related issues as they bear on CLASSICAL and ANCIENT >India. This kind of forum is not widely available elsewhere. (I upcase) Fine! I would agree. But why so many posts about today's India (forwarded newspapers, feasts, calendars, politics, hindi's or tamil's problems, &c.) ? The first question from Lars Martin Fosse was a very excusable transgression, but why so many people don't answered him privately ? Best regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Oct 27 12:24:48 1997 From: jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Jeson Woo) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 07:24:48 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033285.23782.5727063992488101432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Stern, I hope you and your family have been well these days. Thank you very much, as always, for your kindness. It seems in Hiroshima that autumn flew swiftly by and winter followed. TV says that it's snowing in Hokkaido, the northern part of Japan. It has been quite busy these days. We are working hard to prepare for The World DharmakIrti Conference which will be held here soon. Lots of DharmakIrtian specialists, including Profs. Steinkellner and Hayes, will come and present their papers at that conference. If you need something from Japan, please let me know. With best regards, Jeson Woo From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Mon Oct 27 19:46:42 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 14:46:42 -0500 Subject: Qns. related to Chola era book Message-ID: <161227033287.23782.7248927580545766784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10/27/97 I have posted a few questions with regard to a Chola era work. Have not gotten any reply. Any thoughts, N. Ganesan Re: A Chola era book ******************** I give below a flowery portion from Aathinaathan vaLamaTal by Kavicchakravartti JayamkoNTaar. This 12th century book is the only Tamil work advocating caarvaaka/lokayata philosophy. That school of materialist philosophy puts "kaamam" above all the other purushaarthas. Awe-struck, the hero narrates a girl's beauty with 35 exclamatory questions, all ending in O's. (Ookaara viyappu vinaakkaL). This kind of elegant narration is not found anywhere else in Tamil literature, so far as we know. Hope you like it. Regards, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov ********************* aatin^aatan vaLamaTal ********************* *vaikaik karaiyil vanjciyin kaaTci* n^Iti vin^Otan n^irupatungka vittakaneng kaatalaal yaampukazum kaaraaNai vaazvEn^tan aatin^aa tantan aruLpOl kuLirn^tulakin maatar mulaittukilpOl van^talaikkum vaikain^Ir mOti matakiTaRi mUrik karaimarungkil kEtakai mallikai kinjcuka manjcari mAtavi vallari caNpaka maalati pAtiri punnai paraarai marAamakiz tItaRu mauval cerun^ti kurun^talar maataLai puukam varukkai pazungkani (kaNNi/Couplet No. 220) cUta acOku tutain^tu curumpamar tAtu n^erungkiya can^tana n^an^tana vIti pukun^tu viLaiyaaTu minnO?nang kaatal viLaikkinRa kaamamO? kaamattin cEto mayamO? tiruvO? tiruvinukkum vaatO? anangkanukku vaazvO? maturattin mItO? ulakin viLaivO? vilaiyilaa yaatO? imaiyOrkaL innamutO? innamutin kOtO? mulaipaTaitta kURRO? ena,oruvaap paataara vin^tap paripurat tOTallaatu pOtaata cen^tanangkaL angkolippap pongolivaNTu uutaata menkaan^taL OriraNTO! n^oyyaarai taatO! taLirO! cilarkoyyaat taamaraiyin pOtO! mukamO! viyartta puruvamO! mItOr vaLaicilaiyO! vevviTamO! vevviTattin tItO! viziyO! tiRaikoLLum vaLLaiyO! kaatO! kanapoR kuzaicumappak kaamanaar tuutO! n^akaiyO! tuNaiyO! tuNaiccevvaay cEtaam palO!ilavO! kinjcukamO! tEnpiliRRUm pOtO! malaiyO mulai!iraNTum taancumakkap pOtaa tenumiTaiyO! poyn^uTangkum vanjciyO! yaatO! enatuyirO! enRuraikka n^inRaartam *manmatan koTunjcaram* paatattai OraatE paarttEnaip paarttanangkan kOtit tezun^tu koTunjcilayai n^aaNERRip pEtit talaRip pirakiruti pOkkaatE taatokka vaangkit tazalOnga ain^tampaal aatakka teNNaatE aiyaa yiramaakap pOtat toTutteyta pUnjcarangkaL pukkazun^ti vaatitta laalE manampataittiTTu aalaalam vEtikka vIzvaarpOl vIzn^tEnai villaalE mOtap pukumaLavil munnamE ennuyiraip paatukaap paamenRu paarittuc cEmitta maatar mukacan^tra maNTalattu van^tizin^ta cIta amuta tiyaanatti naalteLin^tu caatal arukip pizaittut tarittavuyir paatiyum yaanum ezun^tirun^tu, panmaNikkuc *aTimaiyai ERRu aruLaatatu EnO?* cOti koTukku murukuTaiyIr! tolkamalap pOtu ciRangkaNippap ponnulakam pullenaving kEtu karuti ezun^taruLiRRu? ennuyirai mEtiniyil vaazvikka vENTiyO? vevvinaiyEn kaatal tanimanattaik kaTTiyatu vaTTamulai mItiTTa vaariTTO? mEkalaiyiT TO?puruva caatik koTiyiTTO? caattum vaTamiTTO? yaatiTTO? vaayiT TaruLIrE, ennuyiraip pOtiT TaruLIr!n^um poRkalaicUz alkuRkum cUtotta kongkaikkum colvanacey vallapattaal paatat tinukkum paNiceyva tallaamal yaatukkum aakEn; ikazaatE enRanain^I caatukka n^Ikkit tanamE tanamaakak kaatil curuLOlai Olaiyaayk kaNNampaal vaatitta vaaRezutik koLLIr; vazivazin^aan taatavarkkam ceytu taLirmel laTicuman^tu paatam viLakkip parikalattil vaittamiztuNTu aataritta vanpOla appOtaik kappOtE yaataruLLic ceytIr, atuceyvEn; yaanuyn^taal cEtamumak kuNTO? tiruvaay malarn^taruLIr! pOtumenac collip pukavIzn^tu kumpiTalum EtilarpOl n^Okkaa, irangkaac, ciRakkaNiyaac, cOti n^utalveyaraac, colluvaton RuLLatupOl vaaytuTiyaa, vimmaa, maRavaa, muRuvaliyaa, vaartukili nOTE vazakkaaTTaa kappiRazaak kOtaiyum enmanamum kaTTum kuzalmItE kItamum vaNTum kiTan^talaRak kETTEn;en kaatalum n^Upuramum kaaltoTarak, kaiyakanRu maatavip pUmpan^tar maRain^taar; - maRaitalumE yaatenpEn? yaanpeRRa in^trapatam peRRizan^tu *virakat tuyaram* pEtuRuvaar pOlmarukil peytuRaa muRRavattam Ati alan^talaippaT Taavicuzan REtavittu vEtanaiyaal vevvuyirkoN TuLLazin^tu taLLaaTi maatuyarap paTTu maramERik kaiviTTa pEtaiyEN ERukinRa pittilE pEyERi, cItap pacungkatali veNkuruttin cengkazun^Irt taataip paTuttut taLiraTukkit taNpanin^Ir mItiTTu vEmatanin mElE viRakiTTum Utak koTuppaanukku okkat tavicinmEl n^Etattai viTTu n^eruppavippaar pOlavE vEtit tiTungkaLapa mElmezuki ammezukkaal vaataippaT TEnai maRucUTu cuTTatupOl cEtitta vEyngkuzalum tingkaLumcey tIngkatanaal aatittan vEmazalin aTTativ vevvazalE; vEtittu vElai viTivaLavu n^inRalaippa n^Otakka n^Ovittu n^OyaRiyaa tEpukun^tu paatakattan ain^tampu paTTuruvum panmalarkoytu Utai yuTantayangka uLLam uTantayangka aataravin veLLattE aLLaR cuziyazun^tip pOtu n^eRiyaRiyaatu aazn^tEn;en puNNiyattaal *maTan^taikkaaka UrvEn maTal* mUtuNarn^ta vaLLuvanaar muppaalin piRpaalil Otiya kaamam uzan^tu varun^tinaarkki yaatu maTalalla tillai valiyenRaar; aatalinaal yaanum atanaiyE mERkoNTu ....... - Kaviccakravartti JayamkoNTaar ----- End Included Message ----- From jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Oct 27 23:49:36 1997 From: jwoo at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Jeson Woo) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 18:49:36 -0500 Subject: Sorry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033293.23782.13195879732958020045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry to send a personal message to the list. I apologize it. Jeson Woo From roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Mon Oct 27 21:12:19 1997 From: roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 21:12:19 +0000 Subject: VBA Modul 2 Message-ID: <161227033290.23782.12159720485997040515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please start with the readme file -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Indology im Auftrag von Johnson, Dave Gesendet am: Dienstag, 7. Oktober 1997 14:33 An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Betreff: Re: VBA Modul Devanagariconverter is ready! Could I please receive a copy of this module? Thank you, David Johnson dcjohnson at auburn.mec.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: Rolf Heinrich Koch [SMTP:roheko at CLASSIC.MSN.COM] > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 1997 7:11 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: VBA Modul Devanagariconverter is ready! > > Hi, since a lot of you shows interest in the WINWORD97 > Visual-Basic-Application program for converting romanized transcribed > texts > into Devanagari: the Modul is ready. You get it free including two > fonts. In > reverse please mail me each bug. > Okay? You need: Basic knowledge of VBA, WINDOWS95 and preferable > WINWORD97. > Writing any text you just choose in WINWORD some lines of texts you > liked to > be converted. Then you call the macro-programm. After some seconds the > part of > text you choosed will be in devanagari mode. > The modul covers several pages, so please contact me with email. You > will get > a zip-file which includes 4 files: the code, a readme-file and two > truetype-fonts. > N o M a c i n t o s h > Good luck > Heiner > Email: roheko at classic.msn.com begin 600 VBADEV2.ZIP M4$L#!!0````(`*>N6R/XB016TPL``)<[```*````1$560TY6+E185.6;VV\< M5QW'G['D_V$UM"11B^NUUVL[:E =Y]KF1IPV#0^(S>[$N_9ZU^Q.;D6\@,1# MZ5\0'A @U J)!PI()2_00IR40KD%""F7I-#<: -)##1)@YB9[^_\OK\SNV[7 M:H@,]4.5\]DS9S[G=VZ_&4TWU.9RM=Q$.[>U$8738:N_[T-383TL1[5F8V!3 MK5$9F*R'I=:F9FNN%$6UQG1_7R[^R]39U&Q$`SM*CLG>5FE^[;K#E:3F9'R?6N-@ MJ/62'^2?$_7Z at SGXKEVWIY54VEZ*RM7)4CMT(/[Y<*E50;&_;V.CDDONM!S) M at QV2QU:<9+G:(7EBQ4G.=$J^L>(DISLE%U:O%>2_7T;X at 2D$F<,!^IAM'IH M;$U_GY8&UR3IQ(<#@_(INL^BH13='R2-*1Q.X2.V7B%%FRP:2=$VBXHIVF[1 M:(IV6#26HBF+QE/TA">+#NSU&'KPI,?0A7T>0P\^X3%TX5F/H0_?\!@Z\8+' MT(OO^V'*HR,O>371DQ>]&*,GKW@,/3GM,?3DC,?0D[][##VYYC'T9-%CZ,G; M'D-/`C=YO+GC3YW9@ 2V,X; =3IMR)\W\Z863&\8`L^Z(;"<,P2.#4,0Z;8A MB/,AZPCMPQ;!^XA%$#]J$;R?L at CBERR">=2R#.Z5:5"U"#RY;A!ZWIA!9BV_ at Y;2IJI0]+ M@#+/SP4.0/8M+0]I?U >UEDAK:;E"UH>T9ZA#+M0RU"K:1EAO:IEA/08?6!X MFP"&30(H'B2 X^L$D"P1P'*:`)HS!/"L$T!TC@"F#4:*>X8`F!XE&-+1$P!3 M1G^(NX4`67($,#U$,*KC+P"F\P0P;7,,85HF at .GS!#"M$,"T15#(='\8IA,$ M,'V)`*8;"6"ZE0"FKRHHP/1Q`IB^1@#3LP0P?9,`IK<(8'J3`*;7"6!ZC0"F M5P)O275?4VY1/1DH@/06`DB_0@#I9PD at _14"2)\A*/ISQRVM\P20/K^;!/'= M::PA3(D>8TSD"YQ<-@?,3AL#Y;4/@_(@A<)XR(PSGTX; >94AF66G MZ\X,H2R\XX:,9",O2\\.CRP^,UUD]9GY(LLO_U"!3%:@&7M9 at F;*R!J\8 BT MOV-(H:,.M!<,@?9SAHQF0R0K\9T`Z_!0<[943^>>68: $'\Z<&5H'],RCPV4 MH7Q;RP7M.,K0O:IEGFPH0[6I98C6M#RNHR0^$$SV)=<-*-XT!))W#('F&=O_ M[@%P$=@8*$#[.PDR,7!!>)P`49@@0!BV$F3BT!&(CDBX4!@OF#ZOW=18?,M4 M at NSJ:&Z-K3>LPXJ(Q+.D%6\]0UY 4HB;U),S'972\FR:SJ8`-SBW>,@!.9Y? 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M@[>52P:1`@!&"3F&T-1 [%UU)WJ#S85"U>^A+_EG09:\+5 'E81*FF[Y_P%0 M2P$", at L4````" "GKELC^(D$5M,+``"7.P``"@``````````````MH$````` M1$560TY6+E185%!+`0(R"Q0````(`'I*2R-;/-,%BV8```"H```*```````` M``````"V@?L+``!404A/34$N5%1&4$L!`C(+% ````@`!;%-(R%F@)O>"0`` M-A8```H``````````0```+:!KG(``%)%041-12Y46%102P$", at L4````" !F MG4DCU9<4>.1Q``"PSP``# ``````````````MH&T? ``2$5)3D52250N5%1& M4$L!`C(+% ````@`9)U)(R1P-MRW;0``),D```H``````````````+:!PNX` M`$A%24Y%4BY45$902P$", at L4````" "UG4DC;OM-=9S)```@' $`"P`````` M````````MH&A7 $`2$5)1$5602Y45$902P$", at L4````" ![2DLC>)=&"@1A M```DJ@``"P``````````````MH%F)@(`5$%(3TU!0BY45$902P4&``````<` ,!P",`0``DX<"```` ` end From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Oct 28 09:48:16 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 09:48:16 +0000 Subject: VBA Modul 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033295.23782.18365731269334719171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I assume this posting was an accident. *Please* take care in your postings. If you "reply" to an INDOLOGY posting, your reply will go to the whole group, not just to the person who posted the original message. Messages to INDOLOGY should not be much longer than 2k (yes, about two screen-fuls). If your message is much longer than that, you need to consider some alternative means of distribution. I can help: contact me. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From jagat at POLYINTER.COM Tue Oct 28 16:20:53 1997 From: jagat at POLYINTER.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 11:20:53 -0500 Subject: Atharva Veda info request Message-ID: <161227033299.23782.4901050880489428045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good day Indologists, I am forwarding a request. > I am currently working on a project involving >Goddess and feminine figures in early Indian literature. Most authors >I'm reading have cool quotes from the Atharva Veda, but I'm having >trouble finding a translation of the whole thing. Do you have any >recommendation? Any help would be welcome. Thank you, Jan. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Tue Oct 28 17:23:47 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 11:23:47 -0600 Subject: Q: Book title Message-ID: <161227033301.23782.5282978823914378370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Book Title on East Indies? --------------------------- The following question is with me for a long time. Hope some learned member of the group can answer this query. I read from a book by K. Zvelebil that some in Indonesia use "cEntanAr's tiruppallANTu" (Tamil) during some festivals. The book he cites is G. K. Vanborough, The peoples in the East Indies. The author and title may not be very exact, though very close. Can anybody give the exact author, title, press and year please? N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From jage at LOC.GOV Tue Oct 28 18:00:51 1997 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 13:00:51 -0500 Subject: [CFP] Information Retrieval with Asian Languages (fwd) Message-ID: <161227033303.23782.14914051161096961457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tuesday, October 28, 1997 Of possible interest. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:33:35 -0500 From: Terry Kuny Reply-To: International Federation of Library Associations mailing list To: IFLA-L at INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: [CFP] Information Retrieval with Asian Languages Call for Articles A Special Issue of Information Processing & Management on Information Retrieval with Asian Languages Interest is growing in effective and efficient retrieval of relevant information from large unstructured databases. Research in information retrieval (IR) has expanded its scope widely with advances in related areas such as natural language processing, machine learning, and man-machine interactions. Especially with the explosion of information in the World Wide Web, the need for information retrieval and related functions has become ubiquitos regardless of languages and cultures. This special issue will be devoted to research and development in information retrieval with Asian languages. Suggested topics include, but are not limited to: - retrieval or routing of texts at variouls levels of granularity - cross-language text retrieval - automated text categorization - infomation extraction - automatic text summarization (including automatic abstracting) - use of machine readable dictionaries and/or thesauri - language- or task-specific user interfaces for IR-related systems - various natural language processing techqniques for IR-related tasks Interested authors should submit five copies of their articles by December 15, 1997, to: Prof. Sung H. Myaeng Dept. of Computer Science Chungnam National University Phone: +82-42-821-5446 Yusong-ku, Taejon Korea Fax: +82-42-305-764 E-mail: shmyaeng at cs.chungnam.ac.kr - The tentative publication date is August, 1988. - Papers not submitted to and accepted by other journak will be considered for publication. However papers already presented at a conference or workshop are acceptable only if they are additionally updated. Revised, or enlarged. - Length: The final article should be about 8-10 typeset pages (approximately 20-25 typed, double-spaced, pages). ****************************************************************** * IFLA-L is provided by the International Federation * * of Library Associations (IFLA). For further information * * about IFLA activities, including organization and/or * * personal affiliate information, contact: ifla.hq at ifla.nl * * * * URL: www.ifla.org * ****************************************************************** From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Tue Oct 28 13:55:23 1997 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 13:55:23 +0000 Subject: Update 3 to Pali Canon online Message-ID: <161227033297.23782.11049125159232760721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The third update to the machine-readable version of the Sinhalese edition (BJT) of the Pali Canon from SLTP (IBRIC) is now available from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics (JBE) sites in the U.K. and U.S. This is a minor update. We hope for a more substantial update in January or February. For those who already have a copy of the files, the only change is to the Sa.myutta-nikaaya and only this need be downloaded. As before the files are available from the JBE websites: >http://www.gold.ac.uk/jbe/jbe.html http://jbe.la.psu.edu/ Or, they can be obtained by FTP: ftp://ftp.cac.psu.edu/pub/jbe/Pali ftp://scorpio.gold.ac.uk/jbe/Pali ----------------------------- The main changes to the texts for Update 2 were as follows: One volume of the Vinaya (BJT Vol 1/PTS Vol IV) and the whole of the Diigha-nikaaya and the Majjhima-nikaaya were proof-read once. The versions of the Mahaaniddesa and Cuu.laniddesa were partially spell-checked. Further missing pages in the Kathaavatthu were added. All the PTS page numbering was completed, including the the four postcanonical texts. Some 30,000 errors were identified and corrected in different texts. The main changes to the texts for Update 1 were as follows: Missing sections in the Diigha-nikaaya, Jaataka and Kathaavatthu were added. Revised version of AN is included. There is some additional PTS page numbering in the Khuddaka-nikaaya. Amendments were made to the Mahaaniddesa. Small numbers of errors in various texts were corrected. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Oct 28 22:29:33 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 16:29:33 -0600 Subject: Centre National de la recherche Scientifique In-Reply-To: <19971010153726.AAA10894@UMLUGGHC> Message-ID: <161227033305.23782.5196925251739633883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kamaleswar Bhattacharya is reportedly at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, in Paris France. Does anyone know how to contact him-- preferably electronically (if even by referral thereof)? Many kind thanks in advance ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Oct 29 00:49:42 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 16:49:42 -0800 Subject: Atharva Veda info request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033309.23782.8219720650799040684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Jan, There is one translation of the AV which comes to mind and that is the one by Whitney. Here is an abbreviated record: _Atharva-veda Samhita_ (Translated with a critical and exegetical commentary_ by William Dwight Whitney Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1962. Hope this helps. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Wed Oct 29 00:45:19 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 19:45:19 -0500 Subject: Centre National de la recherche Scientifique In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033307.23782.11724816236883277100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kamaleshwar Bhattacharya 32 route de Brie 91800 Brunoy France tel: 60 46 65 75 On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, JR Gardner wrote: > Kamaleswar Bhattacharya is reportedly at the Centre National de la > Recherche Scientifique, in Paris France. Does anyone know how to contact > him-- preferably electronically (if even by referral thereof)? > > Many kind thanks in advance > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > John Robert Gardner Obermann Center > School of Religion for Advanced Studies > University of Iowa University of Iowa > 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 > http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other > than that of which it is the transformation. > From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Oct 29 10:23:24 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 02:23:24 -0800 Subject: Marathi repha (fwd) Message-ID: <161227033313.23782.4080285448725762204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, There is a discussion on the conv-dev list in regard to the transliteration of the Marathi repha depending on its contexts. I'm forwarding the message to this list in case anyone is able to address the question. Please send your responses to conv-dev at elot.gr Thank you. Regards, Anshuman Pandey ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:40:48 -0500 From: Anthony P Stone To: Conv-Dev Subject: Marathi repha Dear Colleagues Marathi has two forms of repha (r initial in a cluster): the usual non-spacing form (call it R for now), and a spacing form with a flattish breve shape under the top line (call it R' for now). The ALA-LC Romanization Tables take no notice of R'. In order to discuss whether R' requires a separate transliteration, it would be especially helpful to have answers to the following questions: --- Taking the Marathi words involving repha - (1) Are there some words in which there is a choice between using R' and using R ? IF the answer to question (1) is Yes, then: (2) How is this choice made? (3) Are there some words in which only R may be used ? (4) Are there some words in which only R' may be used ? --- (The answers to these questions determine how the different sets of words are related.) I look forward to seeing your responses. Thanks, Tony Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. 20 Harding Close, Redbourn, St Albans, Herts, AL3 7NT, UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1582 792 497 Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com Thinking aloud on transliteration at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Wed Oct 29 08:59:06 1997 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 08:59:06 +0000 Subject: Atharva Veda info request Message-ID: <161227033311.23782.12848340784313390604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another translation : The Atharvaveda / sanskrit text with english translation by Devi Chand. - New Delhi : Munshiram Manoharlal, 1995. ISBN 81-215-'172-5 Partial translation (15 first kanda) : The Atharva-Veda samhita : with English translation / by Svami Satya Prakash Sarasvati. - New Delhi : Veda Pratishthana, 1992?. - 4 vol. Best regards, Fran?ois At 11:20 28.10.97 -0500, you wrote: >Good day Indologists, > >I am forwarding a request. > >> I am currently working on a project involving >>Goddess and feminine figures in early Indian literature. Most authors >>I'm reading have cool quotes from the Atharva Veda, but I'm having >>trouble finding a translation of the whole thing. Do you have any >>recommendation? > >Any help would be welcome. > >Thank you, Jan. > > Francois Obrist Section de langues et civilisations orientales Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch From jai at FLEX.COM Wed Oct 29 19:45:33 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 09:45:33 -1000 Subject: Diwali Greetings! Message-ID: <161227033322.23782.14145624851888537203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Happy Deepaavalee and a prosperous New Year! As the tradition of lighting earthen lamps and fireworks highlights the season's festivities, please do be careful with the fireworks. I pray that more spiritual progress, health, happiness and wealth be yours in the coming years! Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Wed Oct 29 18:48:58 1997 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 10:48:58 -0800 Subject: Marathi repha Message-ID: <161227033321.23782.7274729628473523965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read the linguists' descriptions of Marathi only when they happen to come my way. So, as a nonspecialist, I do not know whether the observation I am going to make about the use of R', the second repha form, that is, "a spacing form with a flattish breve shape under the top line,? has already been made. As a native speaker of Marathi my understanding is that R' tends to be used when a short vowel preceding a r-initial consonant cluster is not stressed (ordinarily, especially in words with Sanskrit affiliation, one expects such vowels to be stressed; in that situation, "R," the usual nonspacing hook on the top line is used). Examples: puryaa (the plural of purii, which, I hope, all of you have been fortunate enough to eat, or feminine plural of the past participle purii 'completed, finished'), tarhevaaiika 'eccentric,' etc. The sign seems to have phonemic significance in Marathi: daryaa, plural of darii 'cave, cavern, valley,' pronounced without stress on "a" and written as daR'yaa, means something different from daryaa 'ocean, sea,? pronounced with stress on "a" and written as daRyaa. It would be prudent to provide separate transliteration for R'. From ravi at TAMU.EDU Wed Oct 29 15:10:57 1997 From: ravi at TAMU.EDU (Ravi R. Iyer) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 11:10:57 -0400 Subject: Atharva Veda info request Message-ID: <161227033315.23782.6814104938519642357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi all: i apologise if this has been discussed before on this forum. i am interested in LIVING TRADITIONS of the various vedas, particularly the atharva veda. i understand that the saunakiya atharva veda is extant among a few scholars in saurashtra (Ref: Staal, F., AGNI, Berkeley, 1983), and in his book "the vedas", the late paramacharya of the kanchi math, chandrashekharendra saraswati states that many decades ago, when the saunakiya atharva veda came to the attention of the kanchi math, he arranged for students to proceed to saurashtra and learn and preserve the atharva veda. 1. i wonder whether anyone is aware of the present status of the living tradition of the saunakiya branch furthermore, i understand that a tradition of paippaladas was discovered in orissa in the 1960s. 2. does anyone know the status of this tradition? regards -ravi r. iyer From pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH Wed Oct 29 15:59:32 1997 From: pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH (Peter Schreiner) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 16:59:32 +0100 Subject: Narayaniya studies Message-ID: <161227033317.23782.12663382498141887279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is to announce the publication of a volume of studies on the Narayaniya section of the Shantiparvan (Mahabharata): Reinhold Gruenendahl, Angelika Malinar, Thomas Oberlies, Peter Schreiner: Narayaniya-Studien (ed. Peter Schreiner). Wiesbaden: Otto Harrasswitz, 1997. xv, 642 p. (DM 128,-) In the introduction (p. 29) I promise to make a number of files available. Thanks to the assistance of Dominik Wujastyk the files are now available via the INDOLOGY web site -- reason enough for the present announcement! Comments, suggestions, criticisms are of course always welcome! Peter Schreiner Abteilung fuer Indologie Universitaet Zuerich Raemistr. 68 CH-8001 Zuerich email: pesch at indoger.unizh.ch From Bogdan.Diaconescu at UNIFR.CH Wed Oct 29 17:46:35 1997 From: Bogdan.Diaconescu at UNIFR.CH (Bogdan Diaconescu) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 19:46:35 +0200 Subject: addresses needed Message-ID: <161227033319.23782.16790939277142363879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone let me know the addresses, fax numbers and e-mails of V.N. Jha, Director of CASS, Poona, and of V.P. Bhatta, Deccan College, Poona ? Thanks in advance Bogdan Diaconescu Bogdan Diaconescu Institute de Missiologie et de Science des Religions Universite Misericorde Bureau 5229 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel. 41-26-300.74.54 Fax 41-26-300.74.38 E-mail: Bogdan.Diaconescu at unifr.ch From sg at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 30 02:28:46 1997 From: sg at COMPUSERVE.COM (Swami Gitananda) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 21:28:46 -0500 Subject: addresses needed Message-ID: <161227033324.23782.12328098781548308757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can reach V.N. Jha at: CASS, University of Poona, Ganeshkind, Pune, Maharashtra 411007, (India) Office phone: [91] (212) 334220 I'm not sure whether he has e-mail. V.P. Bhatta at: Deccan College, Pune, Maharashtra 411006. I don't have a phone number of him. I hope this is of some help. Swami Gitananda ---------- From: Indology Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 10:00 AM To: INTERNET:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: addresses needed Could anyone let me know the addresses, fax numbers and e-mails of V.N. Jha, Director of CASS, Poona, and of V.P. Bhatta, Deccan College, Poona ? Thanks in advance Bogdan Diaconescu Bogdan Diaconescu Institute de Missiologie et de Science des Religions Universite Misericorde Bureau 5229 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel. 41-26-300.74.54 Fax 41-26-300.74.38 E-mail: Bogdan.Diaconescu at unifr.ch From sg at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 30 02:28:49 1997 From: sg at COMPUSERVE.COM (Swami Gitananda) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 21:28:49 -0500 Subject: Atharva Veda info request Message-ID: <161227033327.23782.3521001537364695506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >???From my own observations, the Shaunaka branch of Atharva Veda is still found in a few places, particularly Gokarna and Varanasi, but it's dying fast. I have not been able to find any living representative of the Pippalada, however. Regards, Swami Gitananda ---------- From: Indology Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 8:12 AM To: INTERNET:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Atharva Veda info request hi all: i apologise if this has been discussed before on this forum. i am interested in LIVING TRADITIONS of the various vedas, particularly the atharva veda. i understand that the saunakiya atharva veda is extant among a few scholars in saurashtra (Ref: Staal, F., AGNI, Berkeley, 1983), and in his book "the vedas", the late paramacharya of the kanchi math, chandrashekharendra saraswati states that many decades ago, when the saunakiya atharva veda came to the attention of the kanchi math, he arranged for students to proceed to saurashtra and learn and preserve the atharva veda. 1. i wonder whether anyone is aware of the present status of the living tradition of the saunakiya branch furthermore, i understand that a tradition of paippaladas was discovered in orissa in the 1960s. 2. does anyone know the status of this tradition? regards -ravi r. iyer From ibcindia at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 30 07:43:34 1997 From: ibcindia at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 12:43:34 +0500 Subject: addresses needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033329.23782.8435669805505693905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The complete postal address of Prof.V.N.Jha, Director,Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit,University of Poona,Ganeshkhind,Pune- 411 007 fax (Home) 0212 349802 Sunil Gupta On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Bogdan Diaconescu wrote: > Could anyone let me know the addresses, fax numbers and e-mails of V.N. > Jha, Director of CASS, Poona, and of V.P. Bhatta, Deccan College, Poona ? > Thanks in advance > > Bogdan Diaconescu > > > Bogdan Diaconescu > Institute de Missiologie et de Science des Religions > Universite Misericorde > Bureau 5229 > CH-1700 Fribourg > Tel. 41-26-300.74.54 > Fax 41-26-300.74.38 > E-mail: Bogdan.Diaconescu at unifr.ch > From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Thu Oct 30 20:26:26 1997 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (Frederick M. Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 14:26:26 -0600 Subject: Atharva Veda info request Message-ID: <161227033334.23782.14126542594758856707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the best of my knowledge, there is nobody in Gokarna who knows the Saunakiya AV, or any other AV "saakhaa. And I would venture to guess the same is the case in Varanasi. A few vaidikas may know a few mantras, but the last of the "Saunakiiyas, in Gujarat, may be gone by now (to fiveness). A taperecording of this text was made several years ago (in Gujarat) by the Tirupati Devasthanam and is on file there, though it is virtually impossible to get (I have tried). The IGNCA also has a copy of this recording, but the procedural problems there are nearly as forbidding. I am currently working on a proposal which would enable copying the material in Tirupati. (Ask me in a year what has come of it). Fred Smith Frederick M. Smith Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. + 319-335-2178 (O) + 319-338-7193 (H) fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Oct 30 20:46:51 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 15:46:51 -0500 Subject: Oriental Nobility Institute Message-ID: <161227033335.23782.10220384505728824455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bill Hinkley in the Serial Records Division kindly has drawn my attention to the fact that an online record has come through from the Delhi field office for the journal of the Oriental Nobility Institute, Woking. sf96-72084 Vidyodayah masika-samskrta-patrikam [microform]. Sanskrit critical journal of the Oriental Nobility Insitute, Woking Microfiche (o) 96/61024 no. 1-27, Jan. 1893 - Dec. 1897 The Asian Division has not yet received the positive copy. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Thu Oct 30 18:56:39 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 19:56:39 +0100 Subject: Marathi repha Message-ID: <161227033331.23782.7349741658238711741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok Aklujkar wrote: >The sign seems to have phonemic significance in Marathi: daryaa, plural of >darii 'cave, cavern, valley,' pronounced without stress on "a" and written >as daR'yaa, means something different from daryaa 'ocean, sea, pronounced >with stress on "a" and written as daRyaa. So the _only_ difference between R and R' is that a cluster beginning with R' does not make the preceding vowel heavy? Can that R' occur at the beginning of clusters of more than 2 consonants, and _if_ the answer to that is no, could one analyze the situation as if for example R'y was not a sequence of two phonemes but one single phoneme? From sg at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 31 03:04:15 1997 From: sg at COMPUSERVE.COM (Swami Gitananda) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 22:04:15 -0500 Subject: Atharva Veda info request Message-ID: <161227033337.23782.9089600415146655387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fred, My records are not that extensive, but I personally know one Saunakiya in Gokarna (who is training two other students in turn) and at least one more in Varanasi (whose father did go to fiveness just a few years ago). They all follow the Kaushika Sutra. Regards, Swami Gitananda ---------- From: Indology Sent: Thursday, October 30, 1997 12:30 PM To: INTERNET:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Atharva Veda info request To the best of my knowledge, there is nobody in Gokarna who knows the Saunakiya AV, or any other AV "saakhaa. And I would venture to guess the same is the case in Varanasi. A few vaidikas may know a few mantras, but the last of the "Saunakiiyas, in Gujarat, may be gone by now (to fiveness). A taperecording of this text was made several years ago (in Gujarat) by the Tirupati Devasthanam and is on file there, though it is virtually impossible to get (I have tried). The IGNCA also has a copy of this recording, but the procedural problems there are nearly as forbidding. I am currently working on a proposal which would enable copying the material in Tirupati. (Ask me in a year what has come of it). Fred Smith Frederick M. Smith Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. + 319-335-2178 (O) + 319-338-7193 (H) fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu From fsnow at INAME.COM Fri Oct 31 09:26:46 1997 From: fsnow at INAME.COM (Frank Snow) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 01:26:46 -0800 Subject: Pali Canon on CD-ROM from Vipassana Research Institute Message-ID: <161227033341.23782.3805522389960081144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, We are happy to announce that the CD-ROM of the Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka from the Vipassana Research Institute is finally ready for distribution. The CD-ROM contains the entire Chattha Sangayana (Sixth Council) edition of the Tipitaka, including the Tipitaka itself, the Atthakathas (commentaries) and the Tikas and AnuTikas (sub-commentaries) and the Vissudhimagga and its commentaries. In printed form this collection would comprise approximately 140 books. The text has been transcribed from the Burmese print edition produced after the Chattha Sangayana. Special care has been taken to ensure the correctness and authenticity of the text on the CD. The entire text was typed twice into computers by separate typists and then thoroughly checked and corrected by comparing the two corresponding texts with specially developed computer software. Finally the text was carefully checked by a team of highly competent Pali scholars in India and Myanmar (Burma). System Requirements: IBM PC Compatible, 486 or later (Pentium recommended) 16 Mb RAM (32 Mb RAM recommended) CD-ROM drive, 8x or faster 20 Mb free space on hard drive Windows 3.x, Windows 95 or Windows NT The CD-ROM is distributed free of charge, other than a small fee for shipping and handling which will vary by country. For ordering information, see our list of distributors: http://www.tipitaka.org/cscd/distributors.htm If you would like to donate to support the free distribution of the CD, please see: http://www.tipitaka.org/cscd/donations.htm From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Oct 31 12:51:41 1997 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 07:51:41 -0500 Subject: Marathi repha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033347.23782.16727891052643699880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok's observations are correct in that a cluster beginning with R' does not make the preceding vowel heavy. Phonologically a combination like R'y can indeed be treated as a palatalized R. In Marathi, this is not the only palatalized consonant. Many other consonants can be palatalized, but are written as clusters without making the previous vowel heavy, e.g. vahyaa "notebooks". There are similarly nasal consonants which get aspirated and are written as clusters, without making previous vowel heavy, e.g. panha "drink made from green mango". There is a discussion of this phenomenon in Aparna Jha's booklet on Marathi phonology published by Deccan College many years ago. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > > >The sign seems to have phonemic significance in Marathi: daryaa, plural of > >darii 'cave, cavern, valley,' pronounced without stress on "a" and written > >as daR'yaa, means something different from daryaa 'ocean, sea, pronounced > >with stress on "a" and written as daRyaa. > > So the _only_ difference between R and R' is that a cluster beginning with > R' does not make the preceding vowel heavy? > > Can that R' occur at the beginning of clusters of more than 2 consonants, > and _if_ the answer to that is no, could one analyze the situation as if > for example R'y was not a sequence of two phonemes but one single phoneme? > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Oct 31 12:56:57 1997 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 07:56:57 -0500 Subject: Atharva Veda info request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033351.23782.18150654994180246787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Shaunakiiya Atharvaveda, a few years ago (1980) there were two reciters in Varanasi, Narayan Shastri Ratate and one more whose name escapes me. I visited Pt. Ratate and got hold of a manuscript of the Shaunakiiya Caturaddhyayikaa. Mr. Ratate is now gone, but I hear that his son is continuing the tradition. I am currently editing three manuscripts, two of the Jatapatha and one of Kramapatha for the Shaunakiiya AV, and as far as I know there is no one alive who can recite these VikRtipathas. All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Frederick M. Smith wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, there is nobody in Gokarna who knows the > Saunakiya AV, or any other AV "saakhaa. And I would venture to guess the > same is the case in Varanasi. A few vaidikas may know a few mantras, but > the last of the "Saunakiiyas, in Gujarat, may be gone by now (to fiveness). > A taperecording of this text was made several years ago (in Gujarat) by the > Tirupati Devasthanam and is on file there, though it is virtually > impossible to get (I have tried). The IGNCA also has a copy of this > recording, but the procedural problems there are nearly as forbidding. I am > currently working on a proposal which would enable copying the material in > Tirupati. (Ask me in a year what has come of it). > > Fred Smith > > Frederick M. Smith > Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion > School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall > Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall > University of Iowa > Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. > + 319-335-2178 (O) > + 319-338-7193 (H) > fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu > From KJKARTTU at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Fri Oct 31 11:06:20 1997 From: KJKARTTU at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (KJKARTTU) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 11:06:20 +0000 Subject: Leitner Message-ID: <161227033343.23782.4890636677678138597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, those interested in G. W. Leitner will find some interesting new, unpublished and often unflattering information about him in E.Errington's freshly published article: "The 1878 Florence Exhibition of GandhAran Sculpture" in pages 139-214 in Maurizio Taddei (ed.), Angelo De Gubernatis. Europa e Oriente nell'Italia umbertina. Volume 2. Naples 1997. With best regards Klaus Karttunen From KJKARTTU at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Fri Oct 31 11:08:36 1997 From: KJKARTTU at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (KJKARTTU) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 11:08:36 +0000 Subject: Parmenides Message-ID: <161227033345.23782.2300195615962478787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, a few additional references and comments on Parmenides and ZaGkara: Before Deussen the possibility of Indian connections of Parmenides were discussed by Aug. Gladisch, Einleitung in das Verst?ndniss der Weltgeschichte. II(?). Die Eleaten und die Indier. Posen 1844. I have not seen this work myself, but without doubt it is much antiquated. A contemporary of Deussen was: Josef Kohler, "Die Eleaten und das VedAnta", Archiv f?r Rechts- und Wirtschaftsphilosophie 10, 1917, 125-140. I have also written down a reference to a long Italian article as relevant for the possible eastern connections in Parmenides, but have never had the reason to search it out and read it: M. Timpanaro Cardini, 1967. "Saggio sugli Eleati", Studi Classici e Orientali (Pisa) 16, 149-255. I cannot say, whether VedAnta is included in it. As to that, I think it is unlikely that there is any real connection. ZaGkara was centuries later than Parmenides and there hardly was much knowledge of Greek philosophy preserved in India, where it seems never to have aroused much interest. For the question of early connections between Indian and Greek philosophy I think the best account is still: George P. Conger, "Did India Inuence Early Greek Philosophies?", Philosophy East & West 2, 1952, 102-128. An account of Parmenides and his contemporaries is easily found in: W. K. C. Guthrie, A History of Greek Philosophy. II. The Presocratic Tradition from Parmenides to Democritus. Cambridge 1965. It is a standard work, though it is true that the author tends to ignore any outside influence in Greek thought. This kind of making Greek civilization a hermeneutic whole was actually antiquated even then and is no more generally accepted in classical philology (perhaps it is in philosophy, I don't know). There probably was never much Indian influence in Greece (think about the distance), but certainly much Egyptian, Near Eastern and Iranian. See also M. L. West, Early Greek Philosophy and the Orient. Oxford 1971. Regards Klaus Karttunen From fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Fri Oct 31 18:17:10 1997 From: fsmith at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (Frederick M. Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 12:17:10 -0600 Subject: Atharva Veda info request Message-ID: <161227033355.23782.6759243511649752134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gitananda, That's pretty amazing! I've been to Gokarna several times, and I never heard of this guy. How long has he been there? Is he young and went there fairly recently to teach in a pathasala? What do you know about his students? Are they also born into AV families? I know, for example, of a very good pathasala in Maharashtra that is now training students in 'saakhaas that they do not "belong to" by birth, just for the sake of maintaining complete Vedic traditions. I would really like to know who these Atharvavedis are. Thanks for any info you can share. Are you still in Berkeley? If so, maybe we can get together at the AAR. Best regards, Om Namah sivaya, Jai Sri Krsna, etc. Fred >Fred, >My records are not that extensive, but I personally know one Saunakiya in >Gokarna (who is training two other students in turn) and at least one more >in Varanasi (whose father did go to fiveness just a few years ago). They >all follow the Kaushika Sutra. > >Regards, >Swami Gitananda > >---------- >From: Indology >Sent: Thursday, October 30, 1997 12:30 PM >To: INTERNET:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Atharva Veda info request > >To the best of my knowledge, there is nobody in Gokarna who knows the >Saunakiya AV, or any other AV "saakhaa. And I would venture to guess the >same is the case in Varanasi. A few vaidikas may know a few mantras, but >the last of the "Saunakiiyas, in Gujarat, may be gone by now (to fiveness). >A taperecording of this text was made several years ago (in Gujarat) by the >Tirupati Devasthanam and is on file there, though it is virtually >impossible to get (I have tried). The IGNCA also has a copy of this >recording, but the procedural problems there are nearly as forbidding. I am >currently working on a proposal which would enable copying the material in >Tirupati. (Ask me in a year what has come of it). > >Fred Smith > >Frederick M. Smith >Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion >School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall >Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall >University of Iowa >Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. >+ 319-335-2178 (O) >+ 319-338-7193 (H) >fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Frederick M. Smith Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. + 319-335-2178 (O) + 319-338-7193 (H) fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Oct 31 12:42:57 1997 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 13:42:57 +0100 Subject: New email Message-ID: <161227033349.23782.8674689410511888682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology list: Please note that I have a new email address as of today: lmfosse at online.no Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Oct 31 14:48:00 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 14:48:00 +0000 Subject: Marathi repha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227033353.23782.12928357615808787405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:51 AM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: >Ashok's observations are correct in that a cluster beginning with R' does >not make the preceding vowel heavy. Phonologically a combination like R'y >can indeed be treated as a palatalized R. In Marathi, this is not the >only palatalized consonant. Many other consonants can be palatalized, but >are written as clusters without making the previous vowel heavy, e.g. >vahyaa "notebooks". There are similarly nasal consonants which get >aspirated and are written as clusters, without making previous vowel >heavy, e.g. panha "drink made from green mango". There is a discussion of >this phenomenon in Aparna Jha's booklet on Marathi phonology published by >Deccan College many years ago. > Madhav Deshpande > Maharastrians are counted among the pancha drAviDAs ( five Dravidian groups). Is the presence of two `rEfAs' in their language something to do with their draviDian connection? sarma. From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 31 20:15:56 1997 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 15:15:56 -0500 Subject: Existence and its definition In-Reply-To: <199710090443.AAA27893@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227033358.23782.4608412548182613011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9 October, Jeson Woo inquired: > > The nature of existence (sattva) has been an important question in >Indian philosophy. It has been a topic of heated debates between >different philosophical systems, such as the NyAya and the Buddhist >PramANa schools, which presented their own definition. In the eleventh >century text KSaNabhGgasiddhi, the Buddhist philosopher RatnakIrti >introduced a list of the definition of existence: causal effectiveness >(arthakriyAkAritva), inherence of the universal reality (sattAsamavAya), >reality as specific nature (svarUpasattva), being subject to origination, >decay and stability (utpAdavyayadhrauvyayogitva), being the object of >valid cognition (pramANaviSayatva), being the object of valid cognition >which grasps something positive (sadupalambhakapramANagocaratva), and >being the object of designation (vyapadezaviSayatva). > It seems to be clear that arthakriyAkAritva is the definition by the >Buddhist PramANa tradition; sattAsamavAya and svarUpasattva are by the >VaizeSikas; utpAdavyayadhrauvyayogitva is by Jains; and pramANaviSayatva >is by the PrAbhakara school. I am now looking for which schools define >existence as sadupalambhakapramANagocaratva and vyapadezaviSayatva. If >somebody helps me with this, or if somebody informs me such a list of >definitions of existence in other texts, I would really appreciate it. > The definition sadupalambhakapramANagocaratvam for existence seems to figure as a vaiZeSika definition, according to kamalaZIlaH. See tattvasaGgrahapaJjikA 14.18-19 (Dwarikadas' edition) - ... dharmivyatirekiNo dharmAH kaiZcidupavarNyante yathA SaNNAmapi padArthAnAmastitvaM sadupalambhakapramANaviSayatvamityevamAdayaH .... and tattvasaGgrahapaJjikA 241.12-13 (Dwarikadas' edition) - anyaH punarAha "SaNNAmastitvaM hi sadupalambhakapramANagamyatvam gamyatvaM ca SaTpadArthaviSayaM vijJAnam tasmin sati sadvyavahArapravartanAt" .... Wilhelm Halbfass refers (*On Being and What There Is*, 159 and notes 120 and 121 thereto) to the section of tattvasaGgrahaH and tattvasaGgrahapaJjikA in which the second extract occurs, and the paraphrase/reworking of this in abhayadevasUri's tattvabodhavidhAyinI. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 31 21:14:34 1997 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 16:14:34 -0500 Subject: Marathi repha Message-ID: <161227033360.23782.10486536568334311757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My warm thanks to all those who supplied information about the Marathi repha. Since there are words whose meaning depends on which repha is used (per Avinash Sathaye and Ashok Aklujkar, both on Oct 29, 1997), it is clearly essential to have a separate transliteration for the eyelash repha. With ~r being used in the Velthuis 7-bit scheme, it would seem appropriate to use r_tilde in the 8-bit case. Regards, Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Oct 31 05:45:13 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 16:45:13 +1100 Subject: Jain Muni Ghasilalaji Message-ID: <161227033339.23782.15482539141396791062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know anything about a Svetambara Sthankavasi Jain monk Muni GHASILALAJI or have referencs to information about him? I've traced details of more than thirty of his Hindi and Gujarati translations of Jain canonical texts published in Rajkot (Gujarat) between 1936 and 1973 (some of the later ones edited by Muni Kanhaiyalala) but none of them give any information about him.