From dran at cs.albany.edu Thu May 1 12:43:55 1997 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 08:43:55 -0400 Subject: question regarding Vimaana "flying machines" Message-ID: <161227030023.23782.8104111066698299161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the samaraa~nga.nasuutradhaara was recently published with a translation/commentary in Malayalam. I recall seeing a review of this. Narendran -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paliath Narendran Associate Professor URL: http://www.cs.albany.edu/~dran/ Department of Computer Science phone: (518)442-3387 University at Albany --- SUNY fax: (518)442-5638 Albany, NY 12222 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From das at netcom.com Thu May 1 18:21:36 1997 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 11:21:36 -0700 Subject: question regarding Vimaana "flying machines" Message-ID: <161227030027.23782.8387468467723245180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > You may also look up the following: > Vaimaanika-prakara.nam, part of Yantrasarvasva ascribed to sage > Bharadvaaja, (English title: Maharshi Bharadwaaja's Vymaanika-shaastra or > Science of Aeronautics, as revealed to venerable Pandit Subbaraya Sastry, > translated into English by G.R. Josyer) printed at the Coronation Press, > Mysore). No date of publication on my copy, but it appears to have been > published shortly after 1973, the date of the Foreword. I came across a paper (1990) compiled by CSHN Murthy from Hyderabad, called "Vedic Aircrafts -- A challenge to NASA scientists". The paper states that the Hindi version of Vimanika-prakaranam was first published in 1959. Personally have not seen that version or the English version (by G.R. Josyer), but the paper claims that many alloys, ceramics and other "high-tech" stuff are described in Vimanika-prakaranam. A list of 20 alloys was described in that paper. Further the paper claims that a certain Dr. Robert Anderson of St.Jose (San Jose?) State University, USA examined an alloy (Tamogarbha). Anybody know whether there is any truth to this? das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu Thu May 1 16:56:39 1997 From: rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 11:56:39 -0500 Subject: nAmA Message-ID: <161227030025.23782.4692641242907673686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: >While talking to Rajarathna Bhattar of Meenakshi Temple, Houston, >he told that there is only one Siva namavali, but many for >goddesses depending on the kshetram. Is this true that >there is only one siva sahasranAmam? No this information is incorrect. To my knowledge there are three sahasranAma-s 1. in the shiva purANa - which has the legendary story of vishhNu offering one of his eyes instead of a lotus that disappeared associated with it. 2. in the padma purANa - which was told by kR^ishhNa to mArkaNDeya 3. in the anusAsana parva of the MBh, which kR^ishhNa used to propitiate shiva. This is the one usually used in temples in Tamil Nadu. Doubtless there are atleast a few more. I am fairly certain there is another one in the skanda purANa. As far as 108 names go there are many, many. The one usually used is from the skanda purANa. There are others from bhavishhya, mAtsya etc also. Ramakrishnan. From Kumara.Henadeerage at anu.edu.au Thu May 1 03:29:06 1997 From: Kumara.Henadeerage at anu.edu.au (Kumara Henadeerage) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 13:29:06 +1000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227030021.23782.18047252615135156346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have made a web page for Sinhala language, a collections of language resources. If you have anything to add to the page please contact me. Here is the URL: http://www.anu.edu.au/linguistics/sinhala/ Kumara. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Thu May 1 21:15:35 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 15:15:35 -0600 Subject: nAmA Message-ID: <161227030031.23782.3978442453391256518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RE: nAmA GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: >While talking to Rajarathna Bhattar of Meenakshi Temple, Houston, >he told that there is only one Siva namavali, but many for >goddesses depending on the kshetram. Is this true that >there is only one siva sahasranAmam? R. Balasubramanian wrote: *No this information is incorrect. Thanks for the information. I had suspected this after I talked to Sri. Bhattar. Regards, N. Ganesan I went back to my old files & found: Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:44:13 BST From: Gary Tubb The text of Nilakantha's commentary is included in a new book by Professor RK Sharma entitled _Sivasahasranamastakam (Eight Collections of Hymns Containing One Thousand and Eight Names of Siva)_. Of the seven other Sivasahasranama texts presented in the book there is one other one (from the Lingamahapurana) with a Sanskrit commentary. The book is being published by Nag Publishers in Delhi, and also includes a very useful glossary of all the names from the texts with English translation ("Sivasahasranamakosa"), as well as appendices giving passages from the Vedic samhitas. R. Balasubramanian wrote: *To my knowledge there are three *sahasranAma-s *1. in the shiva purANa - which has the legendary story of vishhNu *offering one of his eyes instead of a lotus that disappeared associated *with it. *2. in the padma purANa - which was told by kR^ishhNa to mArkaNDeya *3. in the anusAsana parva of the MBh, which kR^ishhNa used to propitiate *shiva. This is the one usually used in temples in Tamil Nadu. *Doubtless there are atleast a few more. I am fairly certain there is *another one in the skanda purANa. *As far as 108 names go there are many, many. The one usually used is *from the skanda purANa. There are others from bhavishhya, mAtsya etc *also. *Ramakrishnan. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Thu May 1 21:56:46 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 15:56:46 -0600 Subject: vimAnam Message-ID: <161227030033.23782.3781648112979886140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: vimAnam ************** I guess Robert Anderson is the same person who dated a copper head as an Indus valley object and that of Vasishtha! See: Harry Hicks and Robert N. Anderson, Analysis of an Indo-European Vedic Aryan Head -4500-2500 BC, Jl. of Indo-European studies. In 1991, 1993, 1996, in Indology list, people said that the copper head must be about 1000 years or so. "dating this thing earlier than the beginning the current millennium would be absurd". The radio-carbon dating in the original article did not cite any laboratory reference. Anderson's paper is the bedrock for many publications trying to show that Indus civilization is "Vedic". People like David Frawley extensively quote Anderson's work. Soon, we will have "scientific" papers about India's vaimAnika achievements based on Anderson's researches! hindutvam jayati, N. Ganesan From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 1 20:13:39 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 16:13:39 -0400 Subject: announcing a new book: SAMSK.RTASUBODHINII : A SANSKRIT PRIMER (fwd) Message-ID: <161227030029.23782.13431508530481601102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, My book, SAMSK.RTASUBODHINI : A SANSKRIT PRIMER, which I announced in a previous email is now actually available. The details on who to contact are stated in the previous email message enclosed below. Thanks. Madhav Deshpande Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce the publication of my new book SAMSK.RTASUBODHINII : A SANSKRIT PRIMER. This book is now published as volume 47 of Michigan Papers on South and Southeast Asia by the Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109, USA. Copies will be available approximately in three weeks both in paperback ($26.00) and hard-cover ($48.00) versions. For details on how to order, please contact the Center at: Tel: 313/764-0352, 763-5408 E-mail: CSSEAS at umich.edu FAX: 313/936-0996 The book is about 500 pages in length. It is designed as an introductory language-learning book, rather than as a reference grammar, or as a book to introduce someone to IE or Paninian linguistics, religion, Yoga or mysticism. After a short introduction to the history and structure of the language, the book extensively covers the grammar of Classical Sanskrit in 44 lessons, each with ample exercises of various kinds. These lessons are then followed by 10 reading materials (including stories and Subhaa.sitas). This is followed by Sanskrit-English and English-Sanskrit glossaries. I began working on this book in 1976 and about 20 generations of my students have gone through successively revised versions of it. During the last few years, the book was also used as a photocopied coursepack in a number of universities, and I received valuable suggestions for modifications. The book as it is now published supersedes all prior photocopied versions which are in circulation. I REQUEST ALL THOSE COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE USED PREVIOUS VERSIONS NOT TO USE THEM ANY FURTHER AND MAKE NO FURTHER PHOTOCOPIES OF THE OLDER VERSIONS. THE COPYRIGHT FOR THE BOOK NOW RESTS WITH THE PUBLISHER and making photocopies is no longer a permissible option. With best wishes, MADHAV DESHPANDE From egge at midway.uchicago.edu Fri May 2 00:56:51 1997 From: egge at midway.uchicago.edu (James Egge) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 19:56:51 -0500 Subject: Bitstream charter csx font and Word 97 Message-ID: <161227030039.23782.12792761976688659667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have found that not only does Windows 97 fail to handle the Bitstream Charter and Utopia CSX fonts, but the same problems arise with the Normyn and Nina fonts. Using Times New Roman and substituting in individual characters from one of these fonts is a workable but imperfect solution. Microsoft's new extended character set (WGL4) adds a few characters of use for transliterating Sanskrit: vowels with macrons and s with acute accent, but of course it lacks a number of characters. WGL4 is also not compatible with some printers. On a more general note is it not depressing that upgrades to software often seem to create as many problems as they solve? Yes. It's also depressing that Microsoft wouldn't bother to insure that their fonts could be used to write words like r.g, moks.a, and duh.kha. Jim Egge University of Chicago e-mail: egge at midway.uchicago.edu begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C,!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 at 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`R $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````3P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&EN9&]L;V=Y0&QI=F5R<&]O;"YA8RYU M:P!33510`&EN9&]L;V=Y0&QI=F5R<&]O;"YA8RYU:P``'@`", $````%```` M4TU44 `````>``,P`0```!D```!I;F1O;&]G>4!L:79E4!L:79E M`/9?`0```!D```!I;F1O M;&]G>4!L:79E8N)-6O $>`' ``0```"L```!213H at 0FET M``@0`0```&4```!)2$%6149/54Y$5$A!5$Y/5$].3%E$3T535TE.1$]74SDW M1D%)3%1/2$%.1$Q%5$A%0DE44U1214%-0TA!4E1%4D%.1%543U!)04-36$9/ M3E13+$)55%1(15-!34504D]"3$5-``````(!"1 !````7@@``%H(``#D$P`` M3%I&=<]8D;(#``H`P19LYQMX M!Q,=!C4U*O\>MRR5_2!6-Q9.(>@LE".)&F$P3O\E9BR4)N<=D3!-*)T];SN?.>\08#(X M_T.Z1-%$CT69.=1%PD0O1__O1[U'/T5O230Y#E!,A$WAAT8#3> "@G-T>6P' MD#IH">!T```34 /P9&,4=&P*L5Q0.&%D:N9U3U %$&=H!4(6, at P!#F,)P%! M`S!S;F5X7QCPY0 M5\]@[V'_6Y/V,P*"$Q!C5$!I at 5%P6Y"3*E!7<"!$`1!A=2I %"!0"L!A"4E=A%P'\($A; M<0205 0P$7=O>']_>8]ZFU;O>Y\/D(=0"-!B^0JP=#AGV@]48_!]GWZFYX?@ M?[ +4'DO;2!ZD L1_8 E `C %T&S at -^,+$Q XT'8"42![56XF:Y8! M%=)*80>"16?\9V4WX9:REA"64(\Q`8#^;G80`& )\&N FN "`5/ 77PR90#P MFN!/8' \8%S2=@B0=VL+@&0>P*"R_P3P!T 080% #@"/`EMBHA6]`A!O!4(7 M(1+R=J!M"U&C=J =`#I<7'3@;VS!WFUM$ ,0!Y"DP$T-X - at Y'-O`8 @3P$@ M#>"@`%I 7$)904P&%4G@!0)\1WFY/L#C0J!1L%&.< M41,"\P" !9!L=E^!9+ .<%/ _ZJB`9 `(*LRH0&;(0'!JJ$_%N /< ``9+ , MT &0("[_FZ2JM at Y0JU(J0):@J\^LWW^M[P_ 9+ %@:^/L)^QKVR['L!DL&RO M3[0/M14IKAR/+7"R[[?/M01B("@"D?^X[ZKC**"VG[M?O&^]?ZL0_S 0OL*K MG\ OP3^N'!I at OL__Q$_%7\9OJQ =D,-/R-_)[S_*] KY`S"6#Y15Z$!T* $(#DWU!"SIY'4 M<&\@`I"TL61/@/?6T=2 $X!":Z#2,5MPI4">0Q;A=J %P-<1(%76L&9P!S = M`%-8U!$",'/X+"!BA3#4<1. 9# '@/H@%W!O`F"D( 0@"L $`-\3@ /PU(#: M at U.B>0. at V/+.3 at N M6#9XRX at V2 `D/=;L1].V/)S=@!/4&N at A3#?6Z+04:$! M:\#0P'4LP1;2_P#0V+$$( -2U0$3@*8PVH*_$W'9X^" VY'<``6P:P&@_]=! MVE('<*!PHR!V,=K !O![X#$"("X*A0J%I=<`$''^=:-0VK'4P ?14U&?$0F M#^%HVL 7(,I at 5T=,-/XIV.!K at ..R$% 'X.%YXK'_TB#4`@7 TD `<850V+%V MD-M;H at 82:P40=E%VT*"%@/\$(-P3`,$#8 8QWX/1"W!/_IB#:\W4!\T(*A<^TJ'+-LHO0G]&O>Q+R8FMM\> YS-(@7YM@ M`Q!V at 6%]_0J%3]SQ[H %L!. G:!30/]LH , at U-'Q8>.!U+0!`!=P]P>0WC/4 M at W4.`&R@`0`$(/_6L:8BBW'BDNAA]I_WK_B___G#$W"D(-:BS&!;<._RZE#_ MWT'50-LH_X%/L-5 Y6&%L/X_%?&<`=O1"S"<`6PP[Y#+,4"<`601`&TM&7$J MT/T44#@;@.96`+T"#P,?!R^W"#\)0"D`6=6 W?%)YUG_^W -#PX?"4#60/0R M_AD0G_\1KP\3U((3_Q4/$K/FR!/O^Q>O#P$RF(#C\&Q J2#G9L<9KQJ_"1$W M.#':0*-0_ZE!UJ+=8!T_'D\;X]_ _''[U(/7D6GFL.-$\1$<8-I []>PZ['4 M8=; =^V!V_'L`'_J08509( =+R%O'T)TP'+\+F N M8=HP*/\J#Q]0'V#_V.(L#RT?*Q,K_R^O'T3A(/AH+FLV(#$O,C\K$ZX`_S0? M-2\)0%. "8TVGS>O.++^2CG?.N\N(=9 Y, \7SUO_SBCG7,`M9R :\&04/& MU4 _XK'8<*7@;+#6P "U92W+IX)UD&6=D4!M"Q"+<*QY+J\P0P0N26!U"?\_ M"P_Y'CEH^C2?$?KI?0`#2O%+, ```P`0$ `````#`!$0``````,`@!#_____ M0 `',&"?AZB)5KP!0 `(,&"?AZB)5KP!"P``@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M`````X4````````#``2 "" &``````# ````````1@````!2A0``MPT``!X` M!8 (( 8``````, ```````!&`````%2%```!````! ```#@N, `#``: "" & M``````# ````````1@`````!A0````````L`#X (( 8``````, ```````!& M``````Z%`````````P`0@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````$(4````````# M`!& "" &``````# ````````1@`````1A0````````,`%( (( 8``````, ` M``````!&`````!B%````````'@`D@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-H4` M``$````!`````````!X`)8 (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#>%```!```` M`0`````````>`": "" &``````# ````````1@`````XA0```0````$````` A````'@`]``$````%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``(CT ` end From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri May 2 00:13:36 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 01 May 97 20:13:36 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification? Message-ID: <161227030037.23782.12919860315034417436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I have looked at the Classical and post-Classical Tamil literature, and also the Indian religious history, I see something interesting. The following is a simplified view concentrating only on the major threads in cultural history. In the cultural interplay between Indo-European and other cultures like Dravidian in India, I wonder if we should not be using the word 'tantrification'. As I look at the cultural history, I see the following taking place. Dravidian and pre-Vedic Indo-European mix to form a 'tantric' culture. This 'tantric' culture co-opts the later Vedic culture and relegates the original Vedic gods to insignificance. After this is completed in north India, the same thing happens in South India with a phase difference of about several centuries. Now called the Bhakti movement, it transforms the South and is re-exported back to north making the religious culture there even more 'emotional'. The building of agamic temples which changed the cultural and economic landscape of Tamilnadu was part of this 'tantrification'. The secular realm of music, dance, etc gives way to the religious realm. As a student of marketing, I see the original pre-Vedic Aryans as very sophisticated marketers. They used the music and dance forms in the Dravidian culture to design and spread the new syncretistic religion of 'tantra'. They were very successful in the north and they were successful in the south also. However, this religion seems to have elicited criticism at least from a subset of the Vedic Aryan as well as Dravidian. The criticism of tirugnAnacampantar by the relatives of the bard tirunIlakaNTar suggests this. (When the three Tamil kings of the Classical Tamil period, failed to defeat pAri,an independent chieftain, the chieftain's poet-friend advised tham that if they go as bards and dancers and perform before him he would give the kingdom along with his own life. Apparently they did that and eliminated him. I think the weakness of Dravidians for music and dance, etc. is still there if one considers the film stars' influence on Tamil political life!) I think the pre-Bhakti Tamil texts, even though they might be chronologically late, has recorded elements of culture which goes back to pre-Vedic times. I think Indologists may find it profitable to devote more to the study of Tamil texts from this perspective. They can see possible pre-cursors of 'tantric' traditions. For example, the vETTuva vari section of CilappatikAram dealing with the worship of the Goddess can be compared to other similar events in Classical Tamil. One can see secular events transforming into religious events similar to iRaivan the king being replaced by iRaivan the deity, viRali the dancer being replaced by tEvarATiyAr the dancer. I think Kerala is a model of what could have happened in Punjab 2500 years earlier. Kerala, known for its tantric practices, can be studied with respect to hypergamy, language change, religious change and continuity as an example of history repeating itself. Regards S. Palaniappan From stone_catend at compuserve.com Fri May 2 06:11:49 1997 From: stone_catend at compuserve.com (Anthony P Stone) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 02:11:49 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification? Message-ID: <161227030041.23782.12318976952262369682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the area of the history of astrology, Palaniappa is absolutely right about the existence of 'tantrification'. For instance, Varahamihira's da;saa systems (on periods of life) are less popular, I gather, than Vim;sottarii and A.s.tottarii das;saa which are of Tantric origin. And the method of choosing a nak.satranaama for a baby by the 'cucecolaa;svinii' text is a Tantric use of the 5 vowels (it contains 'aiuek.rttikaa' which shows that the system takes K.rttika as the first nak.satra). And so on. Tony Stone From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Fri May 2 12:11:59 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 08:11:59 -0400 Subject: Hindu folklore Message-ID: <161227030046.23782.13169619123111459349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: I am posting the below appended message for a friend. Please respond directly to me. Many thanks. sushil mittal ------------------------------------- In the Hindu folklore, 1. Are there REVERSED FEET fairies? 2. Are there ONE-EYED GIANTS? 3. Are the following products considered polluting: DOMESTIC FOWLS, ONIONS, GARLIC, AND THE SCARLET DYESTUFF rhoi? 4. Can the FAIRIES control the weather and cause storms? In the MOUNTAINS ARE THERE LAKES WHERE THEY ARE SAID TO BATHE? Will throwing rocks into one of these lakes CAUSE RAIN OR HAIL? 5. Is there a belief that the exploitation of domestic animals (specifically goats) is merely the terrestial parrallel to the HERDING OF IBEXES AND MOUNTAIN GOATS BY THE FAIRIES in their high mountain domain? Futhermore, CAN ONE ONLY KILL ANIMALS WHICH HAVE ALREADY BEEN EATEN BY THE FAIRIES? 6. Any other beliefs associated with high altitude with low lands? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From astpf at LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU Thu May 1 23:31:39 1997 From: astpf at LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 09:31:39 +1000 Subject: Bitstream charter csx font and Word 97 Message-ID: <161227030036.23782.14434123145933969859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, are you using Bitstream charter csx font and Word 97? A friend tells me that the Bitstream charter csx font with diacritic marks no longer works in Word 97 for windows. Due I suspect to a some changes made by Microsoft in how fonts are handled. Is anyone else is experiencing this problem? I ask this because I compiled the font which is in the Indology archive and if this problem is general would like to replace it with a new version that works even in Word 97. On a more general note is it not depressing that upgrades to software often seem to create as many problems as they solve? Dr Peter G Friedlander Department of Asian Studies La Trobe University Bundoora 3084 Victoria Australia tel:(03) 9479 2064 From magier at columbia.edu Fri May 2 13:36:01 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 09:36:01 -0400 Subject: New Center for Indian Studies Message-ID: <161227030047.23782.12723472839514727190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been asked to forward this news release to your listserv or mailing list. If you require any further information, please contact Professor Sridhar directly. David Magier SARAI --------------- NEWS FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE State University of New York Stony Brook Center for India Studies Opened at SUNY Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY, April 26, 1997 Contact: Professor S.N. Sridhar Professor of Linguistics and Director Center for India Studies East 5350 Melville Library Stony Brook, NY 11794-3386 Phone [Office] (516) 632-9742 Phone [Home] (516) 751-1810 Fax [Office] (516) 632-9731 Fax [Home] (516) 751-7050 Email: ssridhar at ccmail.sunysb.edu On a glorious, sunny Saturday, 600 enthusiastic Long Islanders cheered as Indias Consul General in New York, Harsh Bhasin lighted an ornate brass lamp, symbolically dedicating Stony Brooks new Center for India Studies. "From now on, there will be two Indian flags in my consular area," he declared. "One at the Consulate in Manhattan, the other, the flag of intellect, will fly at Stony Brook." He pledged full support from the Consulate, including a 100-volume set of the collected works of Mahatma Gandhi and help in offering courses on current affairs in India. The establishment Stony Brooks India Center, the first in the State University system, has been hailed as an extraordinary accomplishment considering the climate of severe cutbacks. It is the fruit of a two-year campaign by student activists, professors, and leaders of the Indian community, who worked in concert with Stony Brooks President Shirley Strum Kenny to transform a pipe dream into reality. The Center, located in the heart of the Stony Brook campus, has a library, reading room, multimedia lab, research and publications unit, and a development office. It aims to promote a better understanding of India by creating opportunities and resources for studying India. Its goals include teaching credit and non-credit courses, sponsoring research, visiting professorships, study abroad and community outreach programs. It is funded by the university and the community together. Student volunteers take turns staffing the Center. The Center's current projects include editing a survey of Indian civilization for the general reader, and a brochure documenting highlights of Indias Freedom Revolution, both sponsored by the Association of Indians in America. "It has given the 600+ Indian undergraduate students a focus, pride, and an identity. It will benefit students years from now. I feel proud, knowing that I helped lay the foundations for it," says Seema Pradhan, a junior who plans to study medicine. Professor S.N. Sridhar, Director of the Center for India Studies, described the beginnings: Students demanded courses on India, and the faculty and the Indian American community worked with President Shirley Strum Kenny. >From a marginal or no status in the curriculum, India studies had grown rapidly, to gain campus approval for a Major in South Asia. About 6 courses are offered every semester, and 7 are planned for this summer. They include Indian Feminism, South Asian ethnography, and 6-credit Intensive (equivalent of one year) language courses in Kannada, Hindi, and Sanskrit. Introducing the Center, Professor Sridhar observed that India's fight for freedom is usually referred to as a "movement," or a "struggle," but never as a "revolution." The Center will work to correct distortions in the representation of India, without becoming parochial. Values, such as academic freedom, were often talked about as if they were uniquely Western, but India had a distinguished tradition of intellectual debate, right from the Upanishadic times. The opening of the Center signified the opening of minds toward India and the Center will strive to broaden scholars world-view to include Indian thought and experience. "These are exciting times for Asian Studies," said President Kenny. Stony Brook was committed to building a strong Asian Studies Program, including India Studies. The Stony Brook India Centers pragmatic and integrated vision, encompassing the arts, humanities, sciences, medicine, commerce and technology, will make it a leader in the next generation of India Studies programs, Kenny said, and vowed to make it the best in the nation. She announced that the proposed Charles Wang Asian American Center which is distinct from, but complements the India Studies Center -- will feature state of the art facilities. Dr. Azad K. Anand, Chair of the India Studies Foundation, who helped raise $100,000 at a recent Shanti Fund event, said that the Stony Brook India Studies was a top priority for the Indian American community on Long Island. He complimented President Kenny on her vision and leadership. He felt that the Stony Brook model of creating an India Studies program which directly benefits students from day one by offering a range of courses and activities was perhaps a more feasible model of partnership between the community and public universities than instituting a Chair. Dr. V. S. Arunachalam, former Science Advisor to Prime Ministers of India and Distinguished Professor of Engineering and Public policy at Carnegie-Mellon University delivered the inaugural address on India's progress since 1947. Comparisons with Singapore, Korea, or Japan are misplaced because of the "tyranny of scale," he added. India missed out on the Industrial Revolution and inherited impossible odds, such as its population and illiteracy. It has not had as much time with democracy as the U.S., nor did it adopt totalitarian policies like China or the former Soviet Union. Yet, its accomplishments were impressive, he concluded. The real winners are the people of India, who have preserved democratic institutions. He compared the India Centers plan to invite visiting professors to the practice at the ancient centers of learning at Nalanda and Saranath and commended the Centers commitment to intellectual pluralism and openness. The audience was thrilled by an inspiring video made at the Center by Ashu Patel, an undergraduate student, chronicling the evolution of student activism and its successful outcome. The program concluded with a three part concert, featuring Daisy Paradis on the sitar and Tapan Modak, tabla; classical vocal music by Dr. Aruna Sharma, who is teaching an India Music course at Stony Brook, and a Kathak dance by Trupti Sevak. From pdb1 at columbia.edu Fri May 2 14:52:24 1997 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 10:52:24 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227030049.23782.8257391286783828049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > The difference can be settled by an experiment that I am not in a > position to perform. Teach Hindi to a number of students who have > had no formal instruction in grammar, and not familiar with any > language with ergative constructions. Do not talk of active versus > passive during the introduction of the perfect past, and make sure > that the textbook/readers and any supporting materials do so as > well. First drill the students in the past of the `transitive' > verbs. When they are familiar with it, introduce the changes to made > in the case of the other verbs. My theory predicts that the students > will insert `ne' in the case of intrasitive verbs more often > than they drop it in case of transitives and that the tendency to do > this will have no relation to the frequency of the `passive' in the > student's primary language. Your theory predicts that they will do > the reverse and will have been doing this from the beginning, > and that this will be inversely correlated with the frequency of the > `passive' in the student's primary language. Since this is, at least for now, a thought-experiment only, let me speculate. Presumably you will have taught your hypothetical students the _present_ tense before approaching any form of the past. Perhaps also the imperfective past, if not before the perfective, then at about the same time. So _my_ guess is that the students will always perceive the _ne_ construction as some weird thing, an imposition, and never fully internalize it, or at least not as deeply as the present-tense construction. When they learn that not all verbs use it they will be relieved, and more likely than not, will develop a strong tendency to dispense with it altogether. What do those who actually teach or have taught Hindi think about this? Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From bpj at netg.se Fri May 2 10:13:42 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 12:13:42 +0200 Subject: Bitstream charter csx font and Word 97 Message-ID: <161227030042.23782.4895246487407137827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:17 2.5.1997 +0100, James Egge wrote: >I have found that not only does Windows 97 fail to handle the Bitstream >Charter and Utopia CSX fonts, but the same problems arise with the Normyn >and Nina fonts. Using Times New Roman and substituting in individual >characters from one of these fonts is a workable but imperfect solution. > >Microsoft's new extended character set (WGL4) adds a few characters of use >for transliterating Sanskrit: vowels with macrons and s with acute accent, >but of course it lacks a number of characters. WGL4 is also not compatible >with some printers. > >On a more general note is it not depressing that upgrades to software often >seem to create as many problems as they solve? > >Yes. It's also depressing that Microsoft wouldn't bother to insure that >their fonts could be used to write words like r.g, moks.a, and duh.kha. Become Macintosh users, and you won't have to worry any more! The Mac is generally much more robust for all kinds of graphic applications, including font handling, which is very smooth indeed. It is also relatively easy to create new special fonts -- though it of course takes the right software... Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From bpj at netg.se Fri May 2 10:13:53 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 12:13:53 +0200 Subject: ASCII and HTML transliteration of Avestan script Message-ID: <161227030044.23782.16576329766766514952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, some time ago a request to this list by George Thompson brought to my attention the fact that there existed no scheme for transliterating the Avestan script in ASCII. In response to this I have developed the 7-bit ASCII-based scheme found in the leftmost column below, based on the transliteration of Hoffmann. I also added a case insensitive version using standard accented letters and the apostrophe as a diacritical mark, which will hopefully look more agreeable on the WWW. At the foot the of the table is a box showing the ASCII-transliterated Avestan alphabet, which can be copied and pasted into messages, as a guide to recipients as yet unfamiliar with the scheme. There is also a sample text at the end of the message. The pronunciations are given according to the Kirshenbaum system of phonetic transcription, except for my use of +j and +w to indicate palatalization and labialization respectively. I give my thanks to George for his help with working out the shortcomings of initial drafts of the ASCII scheme. Needless to say I remain solely responsible for any remaining deficiencies. Your comments and criticisms are welcome. Please repost this scheme to other potentially interested mailinglists, newsgroups and individuals as you see fit. Apologies for the length of this post, wc will hopefully be seen as motivated by the nature of the content. Best wishes, Philip ******************************************************************************* Proposal for an ASCII and HTML transliteration of Avestan script Draft 2, 1.5.1997 NEW! by B. Philip Jonsson ASCII HTML Pronunciation. Comments. case not case sensitive sensitive a a /a/ A ? â /a:/ % ? å /A:/ & ? ã /a~/ V ? õ /A~/ Rare. ^ ?/? ë /@/ ä @ ? æ /@:/ e e /e/ E ? ê /E:/ o o /o/ O ? ô /O:/ i i /I/ I ? î /i:/ u u /U/ U ? û /u:/ k k /k/ x x /x/ X 'xy /x+j/ K 'xv /x+w/ g g /g/ q q exact pronunciation unknown, possibly /q/ or /G/, or implosive /g/. Rare. Q gh /Q/ (voiced velar fricative.) c c /tS/ j j /dZ/ t t /t/ H th /T/ d d /d/ D dh /D/ T 't exact pronunciation unknown, ejective /t/ or implosive /d/. p p /p/ f f /F/ (bilabial.) b b /b/ B w (bh) /B/ (bilabial fricative.) G '?g 'ñg /N/ (velar nasal), mostly found before h. J '?y 'ñy /N+j/ W '?v 'ñv /N+w/ n n /n/ N 'ny /n+j/ ~ ? ñ nasalization of preceding vowel _and_ nasal consonant homorganic with the following stop. m m /m/ M 'm exact pronunciation unknown, /m+j/ or /hm/ (voiceless /m/) Y ? ÿ /j/ Confused with y in the manuscripts ii ii /Ij/ v v /v/ older /w/ uu uu /Uw/ r r /r/ (possibly not rolled) $ ? ç /hr/ (voiceless /r/) or /S+r/ (retroflex /S/). Confused with sh in the manuscripts. s s /s/ z z /z/ S sh /S/ Confused with ? in the manuscripts. Z zh /Z/ C 'sh /S+y/ Confused with sh and ? in the manuscripts y(/R) y / 'zh /Z+y/ Confused with ? in the manuscripts. h 'h /h/ Note the apostrophe in the HTML transliteration! ************************************* * AVESTAN TRANSLITERATION * * * * a A % & (V) ^ @ e E o O i I u U * * * * k x X K g q Q c j t H d D T * * * * p f b B G J W n N ~ m M Y v * * * * r $ s z S Z C y(/R) h * * * * Devised by B.Philip Jonsson * * * ************************************* (pa n&m i yazd&) 1: a$^m vohU...(1 u 3). frauuarAne mazdaiiasnO zaraHuStriS vIdaEuuO ahura-TkaE$O, hAuuan at e a$aone a$ahe raHBe yasnAica vahmAica x$naoHrAica frasastaiiaEca, sAuuaGh at e vIsiiAica a$aone a$ahe raHBe yasnAica vahmAica x$naoHrAica frasastaiiaEca. 2: AHrO ahurahe mazd% puHrahe tauua AtarS puHra ahurahe mazd% x$naoHra yasnAica vahmAica x$naoHrAica frasastaiiaEca. 3: yaHA ahU vairiiO zaotA frA-mE mrUtE, aHA ratuS a$ATcIT haca frA a$auua vIDuu% mraotU. a$^m vohU...(3). yaHA ahU vairiiO...(2). 4: frastuiiE humatOibiiascA hUxtOibiiascA huuarStOibiiascA m&HBOibiiascA vax^DBOibiiascA varStuuOibiiascA, aibigairiiA daiHE vIspA humatAcA hUxtAcA huuarStAcA, paitiriciiA daiHE vIspA duSmatAcA duZUxtAcA duZuuarStAcA. 5: f^rA v@ rAhI am^$A sp^~tA yasn^mcA vahm^mcA f^rA manaGhA f^rA vacaGhA f^rA CiiaoHanA f^rA aGhuiiA f^rA tanuuascIT KaXii% uStan^m. 6: staomI a$^m, a$^m vohU vahiSt^m astI uStA astI uStA ahmAi hiiaT a$Ai vahiStAi a$^m(3)! ******************************************************************************* ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri May 2 20:02:54 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 16:02:54 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227030052.23782.5856174521428991622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter D Banos wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > The difference can be settled by an experiment that I am not in a > > position to perform. Teach Hindi to a number of students who have > > had no formal instruction in grammar, and not familiar with any > > language with ergative constructions. Do not talk of active versus > > passive during the introduction of the perfect past, and make sure > > that the textbook/readers and any supporting materials do so as > > well. First drill the students in the past of the `transitive' > > verbs. When they are familiar with it, introduce the changes to made > > in the case of the other verbs. My theory predicts that the students > > will insert `ne' in the case of intrasitive verbs more often > > than they drop it in case of transitives and that the tendency to do > > this will have no relation to the frequency of the `passive' in the > > student's primary language. Your theory predicts that they will do > > the reverse and will have been doing this from the beginning, > > and that this will be inversely correlated with the frequency of the > > `passive' in the student's primary language. > > Since this is, at least for now, a thought-experiment only, > let me speculate. > Presumably you will have taught your hypothetical students the _present_ > tense before approaching any form of the past. Perhaps also the > imperfective past, if not before the perfective, then at about the same > time. > So _my_ guess is that the students will always perceive the _ne_ > construction as some weird thing, an imposition, and never fully > internalize it, or at least not as deeply as the present-tense > construction. Or they might think of `ne' as the auxillary or even the whole verb (because the participle agrees with the object). As long as the construction is presented in neutral terms (instead of `ne' is the `instrumental case ending') with `ne' as a particle, I doubt that we can predict how this will be interpreted. From cfynn at dircon.co.uk Fri May 2 17:42:36 1997 From: cfynn at dircon.co.uk (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 17:42:36 +0000 Subject: Bitstream charter csx font and Word 97 Message-ID: <161227030050.23782.4563479655259275695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 2 May 97, James Egge wrote: > I have found that not only does Windows 97 fail to handle the > Bitstream Charter and Utopia CSX fonts, but the same problems > arise with the Normyn and Nina fonts. Using Times New Roman > and substituting in individual characters from one of these > fonts is a workable but imperfect solution. > > Microsoft's new extended character set (WGL4) adds a few > characters of use for transliterating Sanskrit: vowels with > macrons and s with acute accent, but of course it lacks a > number of characters. WGL4 is also not compatible with some > printers. > > On a more general note is it not depressing that upgrades to > software often seem to create as many problems as they solve? > > Yes. It's also depressing that Microsoft wouldn't bother to > insure that their fonts could be used to write words like r.g, > moks.a, and duh.kha. > > Jim Egge > University of Chicago > e-mail: egge at midway.uchicago.edu Actually Windows 97 contains much better support for Unicode than Windows 95 and - when applications are available to take advantage of it - you should be able to easily generate *all* the diacritics necessary for transliterating Indian scripts as well as those scripts themselves in Windows 97. Windows 97 supports all the Unicode character pages not just the WGL4 sub set that was intoduced with Win 95. As for fonts not working - many font development tools generate poor quality TrueType fonts or fonts with missing table information. Some of these tables were not required by Windows 3.1x or Windows '95 (although they have been in the spec for years). Windows 97 requires some of these additional tables and if fonts have been made without them they may not work. Word 97 does contain Unicode support. Microsoft seem to be developing add on language packs for most Unicode scripts and languages which will be available for Windows 97 & NT 5. AFAIK these language-packs should contain fonts for the appropriate script(s) and a keyboard driver and it it will be possible to switch bettween installed IME's / keyboard layouts /scripts/ fonts on the fly. To make Microsoft aware of the demand for an add-on language pack and fonts to handle the diacritics used in transliterating Indic scripts it might be a good idea for as many institutions and individuals as possible to contact "Nadine Kano" and "F. Avery Bishop" of Microsoft's Globalization group. I have also found David Meltzer of their Typography group to be very helpful regarding difficulties with fonts etc.. - Chris cfynn at dircon.co.uk From emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr Fri May 2 19:37:59 1997 From: emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr (=?utf-8?Q?Emil_HER=C5=A0AK?=) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 21:37:59 +0200 Subject: Bitstream charter csx font and Word 97 Message-ID: <161227030054.23782.6183002286235498534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been try to use the unicode settings on Word 97 however I haven't managed to figure out how to get them to work for diacritics used for Indian transcription. Basically the Lucinda Sans Unicode provided with Word 97 has the possibility of using Latin 1, Latin 2, (New) Greek, Cyrillic, Turkish, Baltic and Hebrew, and when openning up the font I found that it also has some extended Cyrillic (Old Church Slavonic), but it was missing classical Greek, Arabic, and certain necessary diacritics for Indian language transliteration (although there are diverse phonetic characters). The problem is, naturally, how to get these to work on the keyboard. When working on my Pan-European platform, as an experient, I managed to play around with the registry to include Hebrew, and them I made a keyboard driver that very nicely "opens up" the Hebrew in Lucinda Sans, with the problem remaining of the right to left cursor. Presumeable something similar could be done for Indian transliteration. There is a problem, however, in that their are no code pages (as far as I know) predicted for classical languages - Sanskrit, Ancient Greek and even Latin. For Latin I have basically been using the Baltic setting, since they include macrons. Best Regards, Emil Hersak *********************************************** Emil HERSAK Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies Trg Stjepana Radica 3, pp 294 10.000 Zagreb, Hrvatska/Croatia e-mail: emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr ehersak at public.srce.hr ************************************************ ---------- From: Christopher Fynn[SMTP:cfynn at dircon.co.uk] Reply To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: 1997. svibanj 02 20:02 To: Members of the list Subject: RE: Bitstream charter csx font and Word 97 On 2 May 97, James Egge wrote: > I have found that not only does Windows 97 fail to handle the > Bitstream Charter and Utopia CSX fonts, but the same problems > arise with the Normyn and Nina fonts. Using Times New Roman > and substituting in individual characters from one of these > fonts is a workable but imperfect solution. > > Microsoft's new extended character set (WGL4) adds a few > characters of use for transliterating Sanskrit: vowels with > macrons and s with acute accent, but of course it lacks a > number of characters. WGL4 is also not compatible with some > printers. > > On a more general note is it not depressing that upgrades to > software often seem to create as many problems as they solve? > > Yes. It's also depressing that Microsoft wouldn't bother to > insure that their fonts could be used to write words like r.g, > moks.a, and duh.kha. > > Jim Egge > University of Chicago > e-mail: egge at midway.uchicago.edu Actually Windows 97 contains much better support for Unicode than Windows 95 and - when applications are available to take advantage of it - you should be able to easily generate *all* the diacritics necessary for transliterating Indian scripts as well as those scripts themselves in Windows 97. Windows 97 supports all the Unicode character pages not just the WGL4 sub set that was intoduced with Win 95. As for fonts not working - many font development tools generate poor quality TrueType fonts or fonts with missing table information. Some of these tables were not required by Windows 3.1x or Windows '95 (although they have been in the spec for years). Windows 97 requires some of these additional tables and if fonts have been made without them they may not work. Word 97 does contain Unicode support. Microsoft seem to be developing add on language packs for most Unicode scripts and languages which will be available for Windows 97 & NT 5. AFAIK these language-packs should contain fonts for the appropriate script(s) and a keyboard driver and it it will be possible to switch bettween installed IME's / keyboard layouts /scripts/ fonts on the fly. To make Microsoft aware of the demand for an add-on language pack and fonts to handle the diacritics used in transliterating Indic scripts it might be a good idea for as many institutions and individuals as possible to contact "Nadine Kano" and "F. Avery Bishop" of Microsoft's Globalization group. I have also found David Meltzer of their Typography group to be very helpful regarding difficulties with fonts etc.. - Chris cfynn at dircon.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3982 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bpj at netg.se Fri May 2 20:11:43 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 02 May 97 22:11:43 +0200 Subject: Unicode and Word 97 Message-ID: <161227030056.23782.5289519895879460482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:58 2.5.1997 +0100, Christopher Fynn wrote: >Actually Windows 97 contains much better support for Unicode >than Windows 95 and - when applications are available to >take advantage of it - you should be able to easily generate *all* >the diacritics necessary for transliterating Indian scripts >as well as those scripts themselves in Windows 97. > >Windows 97 supports all the Unicode character pages >not just the WGL4 sub set that was intoduced with Win 95. > >As for fonts not working - many font development tools >generate poor quality TrueType fonts or fonts with >missing table information. Some of these tables were not >required by Windows 3.1x or Windows '95 (although they >have been in the spec for years). > >Windows 97 requires some of these additional tables and >if fonts have been made without them they may not work. > >Word 97 does contain Unicode support. > >Microsoft seem to be developing add on language packs for most >Unicode scripts and languages which will be available for >Windows 97 & NT 5. AFAIK these language-packs should contain >fonts for the appropriate script(s) and a keyboard driver and >it it will be possible to switch bettween installed IME's / keyboard >layouts /scripts/ fonts on the fly. AFAIK there is as yet no support for underdot within Unicode. Someone I know used cedilla instead, but this is not found on {d}... >To make Microsoft aware of the demand for an add-on language >pack and fonts to handle the diacritics used in >transliterating Indic scripts it might be a good idea for as >many institutions and individuals as possible to contact And while they are at it: press on Apple to endorse Unicode too. These myopic "wars" lead nowhere: only an open wired community with alternatives will! BPJ ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* From k54545 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sat May 3 06:29:16 1997 From: k54545 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Masataka Murakami) Date: Sat, 03 May 97 06:29:16 +0000 Subject: Unicode and Word 97 Message-ID: <161227030057.23782.17599244255194622837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> q From thillaud at unice.fr Sat May 3 09:43:46 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 03 May 97 11:43:46 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030059.23782.6870389889199974442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:58 +0200 28/04/97, I wrote: >Dear indologists, > That's very hard to find in a dictionary the words who design >hair's colours in epic. I'm interrested by the names for: > white-haired, red-haired, blond-haired, black-haired > Can someone help me ? >Thanks in advance, > Dominique Many sanskritists on the list but not an answer (even private). I suppose that was a great blasphem to ask Indians about hair's colour! I apologize. Worst, I was laughing about Vedic hypertechnology and their 'flying saucers'. I apologize. I find too much nationalistic messages on the list. I presume too many Indian peoples are hoping a civil war in Bharat and are using historical, arheological and linguistical arguments to confort their ideological arguments. I love peace and I hope to be wrong, but Europa's history show well the terrific role played by ideologists. Remember the nazi scholar (I've happily forget his name) who said 'Saxon' < 'Isaac's son'! I apologize to be sad. I apologize to leave. Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat May 3 11:01:02 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 03 May 97 13:01:02 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030060.23782.3061289150300157176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:46 3.05.97 BST, you wrote: >At 12:58 +0200 28/04/97, I wrote: >>Dear indologists, >> That's very hard to find in a dictionary the words who design >>hair's colours in epic. I'm interrested by the names for: >> white-haired, red-haired, blond-haired, black-haired >> Can someone help me ? As far as I can see, a differentiation of hair colour stops somewhere close to Afghanistan. Further south everybody seems to have black hair. But if you want to describe someone's hair colour, it would be natural to use the word for the relevant colour + keshin (or something to that effect. A more interesting question is if Indians differentiate between hair colour variations in Europeans. Are we all "fair", or do Indians see the difference of various shades of brown, yellow, red etc.? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun May 4 01:38:58 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sun, 04 May 97 03:38:58 +0200 Subject: Boat Song Message-ID: <161227030061.23782.1283552256834567016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Something I have just caught on CNN International [1]: there seems to be a new movie out on the life and music of three great women singers of Carnatic music, M.S.Subbulakshmi, T.K.Pattamal and T.Brinda (who died shortly after the shooting of the movie was completed). It's called "Boat Song" and it was produced by Saroj Satyanarayan. their music (there's other sources) but hearing them talk. Apparently, at least for M.S.Subbulakshmi, this was the first time she'd accepted to be interviewed (and even now she was actually talking thru her husband: she whispered into into her husband's ear what she wanted to say and her husband would then repeat it out loud) [1] If it matters, it was on "Inside Asia", and the report was by Anita Pratap. From witzel at husc.harvard.edu Mon May 5 00:49:51 1997 From: witzel at husc.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 04 May 97 20:49:51 -0400 Subject: address change Message-ID: <161227030063.23782.12219954339113184711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (a)mitrANi, Harvard is shutting down its venerable HUSC3 server any day now. Hence, my new address will be: witzel at fas.harvard.edu Mail to HUSC3 will bounce back to you. Sorry for the inconvenience! They are "unable" to supply automatic forwarding to the new address. So much for service economy. M. Witzel Dept. of Sanskrit Harvard University 617- 495 395 From witzel at husc.harvard.edu Mon May 5 01:05:32 1997 From: witzel at husc.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 04 May 97 21:05:32 -0400 Subject: Summer Skt at Harvard (final) Message-ID: <161227030065.23782.429534314698362578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Updated version of the earlier announcement of January: ------------------------------------------------------ SUMMER SANSKRIT at HARVARD. Like last year, I got several inquiries regarding our offering of Introductory Sanskrit this summer, -- taught here since 1988. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. June 23 - August 15; exam period Aug. 12-15 Instructor: Michael Witzel This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. Fees: Application fee (nonrefundable $35) Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 2,820 Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American carrier) On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: $ 2,500 (Housing deposit $ 540) Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) through June 4. Late registration June 5 - June 22 ($50 late fee). June 23- June 27 ($100 late fee) Catalogues/Information from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA 02138-3722, USA phone 617- 495 4024 On-line catalogue: ================= http://summer.dce.harvard.edu gopher.harvard.edu Telnet: vine.harvard.edu (at the login type: courses and RETURN) via modem: 617 496 8500, choose option 4 (vine): select Harv.Univ. course catalogs then elect Summer school for catalogue and all other info. For computer assistance call 617 496 2001 (Monday-Friday 9am-5pm) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit Wales Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Chair, Committee on South Asian Studies 53 Church Street Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138, USA phones: - 1- 617 - 495 3295 (messages) Electronic Journal of 496 8570 Vedic Studies fax: 496 8571 EJVS-list at shore.net email: witzel at fas.harvard.edu http://www.shore.net/~india/ejvs From jaybee at tm.net.my Wed May 7 09:23:46 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 02:23:46 -0700 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030094.23782.273275120617107403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > > At 12:58 +0200 28/04/97, I wrote: > >Dear indologists, > > That's very hard to find in a dictionary the words who design > >hair's colours in epic. I'm interrested by the names for: > > white-haired, red-haired, blond-haired, black-haired > > Dear Monsieur Thillaud, Regarding hair's colour in Sanskrit: I beg to inform that I am not a Sanskritologist.But with due humility, may I provide what may serve as pointers with what little that I know... As someone has already pointed out,the 'colour' followed by 'haired' seems to be the general rule. Black-hair- nIla SikurA- Lalitha Sahasranaama susnigdha nIlAlaka SrENi SrungArithE- SyAmaLA dhandakam harikESa upavIdhinE - Sri Rudram Golden Haired- The HiranyakESi Dharmasutra is by a person named ` HiranyakESin Sometime ago I came across a passage whcch mentions about a Vedic referance. In this referance, the Brahmins are said to possess yellow hair and whiskers. In the same source , Indra was described as having stout neck, very muscular body and yellow hair and whiskers and beard. (Arnold Swarzenegger?) I don't remember the source. May be someone better equipped might help? Probably this colour description might be the closest that we can get to "Blond Hair" Siva is considered to be Red-haired according to Tamil traditions. I don't know any corrolaries in Sanskrit. The Siva Sahasranaamam and the Sri Rudram are silent about this. I hope somebody can follow up and clarify. Bon Jour, Monsieur, JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah Malaysia. someone help me ? > >Thanks in advance, > > Dominique > > Many sanskritists on the list but not an answer (even private). > I suppose that was a great blasphem to ask Indians about hair's colour! > I apologize. > Worst, I was laughing about Vedic hypertechnology and their 'flying > saucers'. > I apologize. > I find too much nationalistic messages on the list. I presume too > many Indian peoples are hoping a civil war in Bharat and are using > historical, arheological and linguistical arguments to confort their > ideological arguments. > I love peace and I hope to be wrong, but Europa's history show well > the terrific role played by ideologists. Remember the nazi scholar (I've > happily forget his name) who said 'Saxon' < 'Isaac's son'! > I apologize to be sad. > I apologize to leave. > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From das at netcom.com Wed May 7 16:27:09 1997 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 09:27:09 -0700 Subject: Significance of panchakachum Message-ID: <161227030069.23782.6961186747396775434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any particular significance to wearing panchakachum (sp?). Till recently, thought it was just a way of wearing dhoti (lesser chance of tripping?). Somebody mentioned that bramacharis are not allowed to wear it at all. Language/varna seems to be major factors as well. Any information or references about this will be highly appreciated. das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed May 7 20:23:00 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 13:23:00 -0700 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030084.23782.16020254660383801029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 May 1997, Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote: [..] > The real discrimination in > India is based on caste and not color although Varna is also a synonym > for color. When they refer to color they instinctively mean Varna. Ohh, come on! Indians can be extremely obsessed with skin color, and will prefer lighter skin, especially in the person they want to marry. Look at any matrimonial ad in any national newspaper. You will leave with the impression that all Indian girls are fair, or have a "wheatish" complexion, and that all Indian boys are tall, dark and handsome. Of course, the girls are all beautiful and "homely" at the same time! We may not have many words for distinguishing among various tints and shades of skin color, but we perceive such differences nonetheless. Given a population, the judgments are always relative, but the attitudes towards skin color do exist. I postulate that Indian languages do not have many words for different kinds of pigmentation, only because we like to maintain the convenient fiction that we are all light-skinned, and that if dark skin occurs, it is an aberration rather than the rule! Of course, too light a skin color can be a minus, especially if accompanied by light eyes and hair - in Bombay, it is standard procedure to tease one's konkaNastha brAhmaNa classmates with an allegation of some unknown European (particularly Portuguese) ancestry. The instinctive Indian attitudes towards skin color are seen very readily among Indians settled abroad, presumably an educated and enlightened set. Don't tell me you haven't heard Indians in the US referring to a black man as "kallU" and Hispanics as "makku" (derived from the word 'Mexican', makku has a negative meaning in south Indian tongues). Of course, we Indians can be very democratic in our attitudes: the word "gorA" can be as derogatory as "kallU"! In India, any "instinctive" reference to Varna when talking of skin color is based upon the assumption that a dark skinned person has to be necessarily of a lower caste than oneself. Although one can find the darkest skins among brAhmaNas, even in Bihar and other northern places, and very light skin among some of the scheduled castes and tribes. Vidyasankar From cssetzer at mum.edu Wed May 7 18:23:32 1997 From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 13:23:32 -0500 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030074.23782.5951824867592155097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have found quite the opposite of this opinion. In fact, it seemed extremely ironic to me, as an American with light skin, that many Indians were so obsessed with the minute differences of skin coloring. I have, on several occasions, found a person that I considered to be very dark in skin color make very snide remarks about another Indian based on the fact that the other Indian had "dark" or "black" skin. I had to actually see the two people standing together and look quite carefully to determine a difference in skin color, but the one that was very slightly lighter clearly considered himself "fair" and the other quite an inferior person due to the fact that his skin color was "dark." I have also observed Indians referring to clothing as "black" (and therefore unsuitable) because it was a color that an American would call light beige or off white. ---------- > From: Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: hair's colour in sanskrit > Date: Wednesday, May 07, 1997 12:40 PM > > It seems the obsession with skin and hair shades is only Western and > Dominique's outburst about the lack of response does not make sense to > me. Similarly while Western culture including the bible is so obsessed > with homosexuality there is no such attention paid in Indian literature > and there are no words corresponding to gay or lesbians as well. The > recent movie "Kama Sutra" is an exception and imported concept and it > shows in the resentment that Indians have for the movie. > > Indian have basically two skin colors, fair(feminine) and dark > (masculine) and do not have words for any minor variations, just like > you have to go to an eskimo to find 20 words for snow. > > > Have a peaceful and prosperous day. > > Aditya Mishra > Phone: 954-746-0442 > e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org > homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya > Thought of the day: > A hug warms the soul and places a smile in the heart. > From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Wed May 7 20:50:45 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 14:50:45 -0600 Subject: Q:Sam Hamill's address? Message-ID: <161227030079.23782.12188575083719270721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5/7/97 Q: Sam Hamill's address? ************************* Sam Hamill is a poet and translated into American English many classic works. Mainly from Japanese & Chinese. (He has also done a book from classical Greek & Latin.) His titles include: a) The Lotus Lovers b) Only Companion: poems from Japanese c) The art of writing (Lu Chi's Wen Fu) d) Basho's narrow road to the interior etc., Does he live in Port Townsend, Washington state? Can you please send me his address and/or phone number and/or e-mail? Thanks a bunch, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov or ganesans at uhcl2.cl.uh.edu From aditya at smart1.net Wed May 7 15:08:08 1997 From: aditya at smart1.net (aditya at smart1.net) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 15:08:08 +0000 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030068.23782.1639731616906240930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse has on Sat, 3 May 1997 12:07:36 BST written as follows: >for the relevant colour + keshin (or something to that effect. A more >interesting question is if Indians differentiate between hair colour >variations in Europeans. Are we all "fair", or do Indians see the difference >of various shades of brown, yellow, red etc.? It seems the obsession with skin and hair shades is only Western and Dominique's outburst about the lack of response does not make sense to me. Similarly while Western culture including the bible is so obsessed with homosexuality there is no such attention paid in Indian literature and there are no words corresponding to gay or lesbians as well. The recent movie "Kama Sutra" is an exception and imported concept and it shows in the resentment that Indians have for the movie. Indian have basically two skin colors, fair(feminine) and dark (masculine) and do not have words for any minor variations, just like you have to go to an eskimo to find 20 words for snow. Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra Phone: 954-746-0442 e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: A hug warms the soul and places a smile in the heart. From athr at loc.gov Wed May 7 20:22:36 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 16:22:36 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030083.23782.6502407752877686443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have also observed Indians referring > to clothing as "black" (and therefore unsuitable) because it was a color > that an American would call light beige or off white. I encountered an interesting parallel to this. In Dalhousie in 1978 I was having several shirts made to order and choosing cloth. I was shown one bolt of inverted V-stipes (^^^^^^^^) in white and very pale pastel shades of yellow and pink. I was thinking it might do for a party shirt (this _was_ the '70s) but decided against it. The merchant praised the cloth saying "it's very somber." Somber was about the last thing it seemed to me. I decided what he meant was that the colors were very washed out or what I believe is called technically in colors "unsaturated." The other fabrics I was buying, to which he was probably implicitly comparing this bolt, were forest green, chocolate brown, and cobalt blue. I wonder if the washed out and muddy shades of very pale brown that the Indian middle class male seems to favor in shirts when they aren't just white are favored as being "somber." (And is the latter the salesman's mistake for "sober?" So perhaps the conclusion is that certain shades are viewed as "dark" as compared with pure white. Or can someone give another explanation? Allen W. Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From athr at loc.gov Wed May 7 20:28:26 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 16:28:26 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030086.23782.17575093523239126314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 May 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: But hair colour? I think that > may very well be a Western obsession. Here in Norway, we bewail our fate if > we are so unlucky as to have "municipality-coloured hair" (a particularly > lack-lustre shade of light brown), whereas golden, blonde hair, or deep > brown or jet black are hair colours you can show off to the world. Could "municipality-colored" be anything like what in the US we call "dirty blonde?" Or is it paler? As I use it, "dirty blonde" refers or at least can refer to a blonde shading into brown, somewhat like the color of brass, though I guess I also use it for something paler than brass. Allen W. Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From bpj at netg.se Wed May 7 14:55:37 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 16:55:37 +0200 Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma Message-ID: <161227030066.23782.3749100146293387848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:12 22.4.1997 +0100, Martin Gansten wrote: >On another list, I noticed this posting: > >>I would very much appreciate your advice on how the word >>Brahma is to be pronounced. Is it pronounced as Bramma >>(with no h sound), Bramha (with the h coming after the m), >>or is it pronounced as Brahma (with the m coming after the h)? >>The way it is written in Sanskrit and in English is with the m >>coming after the h. However, in many vedic chanting recordings >>and in recordings of Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam, I notice that people >>are pronouncing the word with the h coming after the m, or as >>Bramma. > >With the recent discussion among our Sanskrit scholars concerning what >constitutes "correct" Sanskrit, etc, I thought it might be interesting to >hear what pronunciation(s) you all feel would be permissible. Here in >Sweden, I often hear the -h- pronounced more or less like a German Ach-Laut, >which to my ears at least is an abomination (not in itself! -- only in >Sanskrit words). But I suspect some would frown at my own pronunciation as >well? as it tends towards the "bramha" variety so often heard among panditas. > >Any comments? The metathesis hC --> Ch was regular in Prakrit, and lives on in non-re-Sanskritized pronunciations of the modern Indic languages. It is not all that uncommon that spelling has been Sanskritized while pronunciation remains Prakritic. In ancient native Sanskrit the sound transliterated /h/ was of course _voiced_, while the visarga /H/ was a voiceless [h]. I also used to have problems with these combinations in Sanskrit and tend to pronounce "brahman" as [br at Qm@n], "du.hka" as [duxka]. It is quite OK from the point of view of Sanskrit phonology. The ancient "prati$Akya" treatises make this very clear: they explicitly say that /H/ was pronounced as a bilabial voiceless fricative [F] before labials and as [x] before velars -- and even have special signs for these allophones! Moreover they explicitly say that /h/ should be _voiced_, noting that it was a common error to pronounce it voiceless. From the facts that (1) both /h/ and /H/ were described as glottal (2) /H/ was recognized as having a velar allophone (3) it was important to keep /h/ distinct from /.h/ by being voiced I deduce that it would have been OK to pronounce /h/ as a voiced velar fricative. I do agree that the [braxman] mostly heard from Scandinavians and Germans sounds ugly! Incidentally I trained myself to pronounce /h/, /H/ and all aspirates etc. in the prescribed way, only to find that they became inaudible to my teacher, who reprimanded me! I swiftly switched back to /Q/ and /x/, and he at least did not comment on these pronunciations. To this day I don't know if anyone really notices that I make a distinction... Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed May 7 23:57:13 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 16:57:13 -0700 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030089.23782.11274117785089424849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >eyes and hair - in Bombay, it is standard procedure to tease one's > >konkaNastha brAhmaNa classmates with an allegation of some unknown > >European (particularly Portuguese) ancestry. > > Really - i hav never come across that one - and I should know. i am from > Bambay, and a konkaNastha brAhmaNa too !!!! This might be a recent development, but at a place like the IIT Bombay campus, such teasing normally targeted those konkaNasthas who sincerely believed in their superior Aryan descent, or towards those who regretted that they did not have the distinctive gAre DoLe - gore pAn characteristics. The south Indians often resorted to this, as an answer to a remark about their darker skin color. One standard retort: "At least, I'm a pure Dravidian, the only Aryan in you is of European descent". If you were a south Indian brahmin yourself, you just hoped that the Marathi guy did not know enough of southern politics to catch you on that one! Thankfully, to my knowledge, such joking remained good-natured. Vidyasankar From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Thu May 8 02:12:18 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 19:12:18 -0700 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030092.23782.6851561981230372618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aditya Mishra(The Hindu Sceptic says): > >Yes, it is both ironic and paradoxical. The real discrimination in >India is based on caste and not color although Varna is also a ------------------- ------------------- Well, I am sure there are any number of Indians who will express the opposite opinion on the basis of their real life experience. No less a person( or God) than Lord Krsna is supposed to have been "discriminated"( or at least made fun of)because of his dark complexion as the following lines( written by Surdas) tell us: Maiya, mohi dau bahut khijAyou | mosoun kahat mol kou leenhoun, tu jasumati kab jAyou? kahA karoun ris ke mAre, khelan houn nahi jAt | puni-puni kahat kaun hai mAtA, ko hai tero tAt || gore nand jasoda goree, too kat syAmal gAt | -------------- chutkee dai-dai gvAl nachAvat, hasat sabai musukAt || The underlined words tell us that Krsna bhagvaan also had his leg pulled , if not "discriminated" against by his playmates, who belonged to the same caste as Krsna( gvAl/Cowherd). The early part of the life of Krsna is sprinkled with such incidents. Keeping in view our own contemporary experiences as well as such mythological "evidence", is it still possible to convince ourselves of the fact that discrimination is/was based on caste and NOT on color? Krishna >for color. When they refer to color they instinctively mean Varna. >Have a peaceful and prosperous day. > >Aditya Mishra >Phone: 954-746-0442 >e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org >homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya >Thought of the day: > A gentleman can disagree without being disagreeable. > --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From aditya at smart1.net Wed May 7 19:42:12 1997 From: aditya at smart1.net (aditya at smart1.net) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 19:42:12 +0000 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030077.23782.4648978832115403594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> claude setzer has on Wed, 7 May 1997 19:33:20 BST written as follows: >I have found quite the opposite of this opinion. In fact, it seemed >extremely ironic to me, as an American with light skin, that many Indians >were so obsessed with the minute differences of skin coloring. I have, on Yes, it is both ironic and paradoxical. The real discrimination in India is based on caste and not color although Varna is also a synonym for color. When they refer to color they instinctively mean Varna. Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra Phone: 954-746-0442 e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: A gentleman can disagree without being disagreeable. From aditya at smart1.net Wed May 7 19:51:36 1997 From: aditya at smart1.net (aditya at smart1.net) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 19:51:36 +0000 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030080.23782.16005473670738915990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse has on Wed, 7 May 1997 19:50:18 BST written as follows: >Yes there is. In the Kama Sutra. I have not read original Kama Sutra but from what I have read it only talks about heterosexual acts, with a great deal of variety and unabashed refinements. While growing up in India I had heard the jokes and snide remarks about homosexuality only when referring to Muslim rulers whose religion claims to be derived from Bible too. I did not find any reference to homosexuality in any of the religious literature native to India. Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra Phone: 954-746-0442 e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: "Miracles do not happen." From fp7 at columbia.edu Thu May 8 00:40:23 1997 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 20:40:23 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030090.23782.2502021450345972363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 May 1997, Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote: > > Yes, it is both ironic and paradoxical. The real discrimination in > India is based on caste and not color although Varna is also a synonym > for color. When they refer to color they instinctively mean Varna. I have noticed this kind of discrimination among members of the same family, so it cannot be Varna. People have shown me their children and pointed to one of them and said, for all the children to hear, "See how dark she is, how will we ever get her married..." An interesting corollary is that in my observation South Asians, especially women, cannot imagine the concept of the "suntan"-- the idea that anyone would voluntarily *darken* his or her skin color even the tinsiest bit is just inconceivable... From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed May 7 18:42:27 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 20:42:27 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030076.23782.15785752854011888320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>for the relevant colour + keshin (or something to that effect. A more >>interesting question is if Indians differentiate between hair colour >>variations in Europeans. Are we all "fair", or do Indians see the difference >>of various shades of brown, yellow, red etc.? >It seems the obsession with skin and hair shades is only Western That in itself is of course an interesting observation. Although I would deny that the obsession with skin colour is only western. According to what African acquaintances have told me, they take an interest in various shades of black and brown. And as for India - well, read Midnight's Children and see what Rushdie has to say on the subject. But hair colour? I think that may very well be a Western obsession. Here in Norway, we bewail our fate if we are so unlucky as to have "municipality-coloured hair" (a particularly lack-lustre shade of light brown), whereas golden, blonde hair, or deep brown or jet black are hair colours you can show off to the world. and >Dominique's outburst about the lack of response does not make sense to >me. Similarly while Western culture including the bible is so obsessed >with homosexuality there is no such attention paid in Indian literature Yes there is. In the Kama Sutra. Although not so negative an attention as in the Bible. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Grey-haired. From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 7 18:53:53 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 07 May 97 21:53:53 +0300 Subject: hair's colour Message-ID: <161227030081.23782.2548576186603440199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>It seems the obsession with skin and hair shades is only Western. > Please consult the matrimonial advertisements in any Indian newspaper. Hair, skin and eye color matter greatly in the contemporary cultures. Best regards, Ruth Schmidt From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu May 8 08:36:00 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 01:36:00 -0700 Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification? Message-ID: <161227030099.23782.3285831530363927723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A late response to an interesting post, but I could not resist an opportunity to pick at things! My apologies. On Fri, 2 May 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > As I have looked at the Classical and post-Classical Tamil literature, and > also the Indian religious history, I see something interesting. The following > is a simplified view concentrating only on the major threads in cultural > history. > > In the cultural interplay between Indo-European and other cultures like > Dravidian in India, I wonder if we should not be using the word > 'tantrification'. As I look at the cultural history, I see the following We already have a name for the syncretic religion that resulted from such interplay, don't we? It is called Hinduism! I'm not sure if the word tantrification explains or describes anything better than the word Hinduization, or Sanskritization, or any of the other terms used by those who talk of the Great Tradition and the Little Traditions. > taking place. Dravidian and pre-Vedic Indo-European mix to form a 'tantric' > culture. This 'tantric' culture co-opts the later Vedic culture and relegates > the original Vedic gods to insignificance. After this is completed in north What are the points of contact between Dravidian and *pre-Vedic* Indo-European? Is the 'later Vedic culture' that of the upanishads and AraNyakas? Were the sages of the upanishads the torch-bearers of the later Vedic culture? If so, this later Vedic culture is itself responsible to a significant extent for relegating the older Vedic gods to insignificance. Already in the various AraNyakas, hari and rudra, who are both minor in the rgveda (if number of hymns is an indication), rise into prominence, while mitra, varuNa, indra and other rgvedic deities become less important. The old popularity of indra is already beginning to be described as a result of his knowing brahman (kena upanishad) and this brahman is already beginning to be identified with rudra (SvetASvatara upanishad) or nArAyaNa (taittirIya AraNyaka). This might be as much an internal development within Vedic Aryan communities as due to an interaction with non-Aryan peoples. However, I do not doubt that such an interaction indeed took place. What I am bothered about is the use of the word 'tantrification'. What exactly does one mean by the word 'tantra'? Is this word just an Indological construct, or is it a conscious self-description by the inheritors of the results of such interaction? When kumAriLa bhaTTa uses 'tantra-vArttikA' as a title, he is using the word 'tantra' to mean Vedic ritual, precisely the kind of religion that was already paling into insignificance in his own times. Even for many contemporary mImAmsaka paNDitas, tantra can be used exclusively with respect to Vedic ritual. On the other hand, for the followers of tantrAyana buddhism, or Kashmir Saivism, tantra has nothing to do with Vedic ritual. Obviously, the tantra that most Indologists talk about nowadays does not have the mImAmsaka's sense in mind, but is closer to a more popular understanding of 'tantra'. Secondly, when did this 'tantrification' process begin? In the north, it occured presumably before the advent of the Mauryan empire. But then, the pre-Mauryan non-Vedic movements that resulted in Jainism and Buddhism all claim to teach the Arya dharma, although admittedly non-Vedic. There was no admission of there being any non-Aryan element in their teachings. Thus, north Indian sources do not seem to lend much credence to this concept of tantrification resulting from an interplay of Aryan and non-Aryan, unless one says that anything that is non-Vedic is non-Aryan. This contrasts with Agamic literature from the south, where in addition to acknowledging the Vedic religion, there is a conscious attempt to acknowledge the Dravidian origin of their teachings. Both Saiva siddhAnta and SrI vaishNava literatures bear this out. It seems to me that the scholars who attribute any and every non-Vedic feature of Hinduism to either a Dravidian or some other pre-Aryan/non-Aryan source conveniently overlook the historical evidence that Buddhism and Jainism are also "Aryan" religions in India. They are extremely reluctant to take into account the possibility that even amongst those who called themselves Aryas, the Vedic sacrificial religion was not always paramount, and that non-Vedic elements need not necesarily be due to "indigenous" non-Aryan sources. This is contrary even to rgvedic evidence, where some Aryan tribes are depicted as hostile to the Vedic Aryans. (As an aside, who exactly is "indigenous" in the eighth century BCE? Is one justified in treating the later Vedic Aryan as if he were still an outsider in this period? The Danes and Norsemen took less time to become Englishmen. It seems that the modern reconstruction of the Vedic Aryan is by definition denied the possibility of transforming into a Hindu; he has to remain frozen in the rgvedic context and its reconstructed history. By the way, this aspect of the Aryan invasion/migration theory adds significant grist to the Hindutva political mill.) One could claim that any 'tantrification' of the kind you describe, really occurs only in the extreme south of India, and is due to contact of Dravidians with northerners. To the people of Dravida country proper, all the people north of the Vengadam hill are northerners, either vaDugars or Ariyars. Meanwhile, these northerners are already increasingly becoming a mixture of various elements, including Greeks, Scythians, the Huns and other foreign groups in addition to indigenous peoples. Now, the Greeks and the Scythians may all be Caucasian/Indo-European peoples (and therefore "Aryan") by our modern reckoning, but the fact remains that for the Aryan Indians who interacted with them, these peoples were definitely "mleccha" and therefore recognizably alien, who only slowly become Hinduized/Aryanized. And if the 'tantrification' process really is powerful enough or old enough, one would expect these foreign groups to consciously promote forms of religion different from the Vedic sacrifice. One might expect to see some Agama-based temple building activity. Yet what do we find? We see the Saka and Yavana rulers performing aSvamedhas to legitimate their kshatriyahood, thus firmly aligning themselves with Srauta sacrificial religion. Any building of monuments occurs more often in a Buddhist context than a Hindu/tantra one. And those who patronize Buddhists and Jains proclaim they are promoting the "Arya-dharma". Again, it is only from much later times and from the extreme south that the Hindu temple building activity gets a real impetus. As far as northern India is concerned, it is therefore extremely short-sighted to ignore the passage of history and talk only in terms of pre-Vedic, Vedic, Aryan and Dravidian. These terms do not cover the entire gamut of the peoples who are the ancestors of today's north Indian population, and their cultural and religious history. Besides, the Tamil speaking Dravidian seems to have had little impact on the north. Finally, the texts that consciously label themselves 'tantra' (in a non-Vedic ritual sense), whether of a Buddhist or Hindu persuasion, all date from much later times. Many of the tantra texts, especially those of the kaula traditions, consciously place themselves outside the Vedic mainstream, and far from being a syncretic development of Vedic and non-Vedic features, revel in transgressing Vedic injunctions. > India, the same thing happens in South India with a phase difference of about > several centuries. Now called the Bhakti movement, it transforms the South > and is re-exported back to north making the religious culture there even more > 'emotional'. The building of agamic temples which changed the cultural and > economic landscape of Tamilnadu was part of this 'tantrification'. The Yes, the bhakti movement originating in the south transformed the face of Hinduism in the north. But this is a late medieval phenomenon. As far as tantra and tantrification are concerned, this analysis also overlooks one of the most important sources of 'tantra' - the schools of Kashmir Saivism. It is well-known that the Siva sUtras, abhinavagupta and other leading lights of Kashmir Saivism are all posterior to the 9th century CE, when this region had minimal contact with Dravida country proper. Kashmir had many more contacts with Central Asia and Tibet, thanks to geography and Mahayana Buddhism, than to south India. Where is the later Saiva/SAkta tAntric religion if not for Kashmir Saivism? And if tantra has intimate connections to music, dance and other arts, let us also remember that it is only Kashmir Saivism that has given us anything that can be called a well-developed Indian theory of aesthetics. > secular realm of music, dance, etc gives way to the religious realm. > As a student of marketing, I see the original pre-Vedic Aryans as very > sophisticated marketers. They used the music and dance forms in the Dravidian > culture to design and spread the new syncretistic religion of 'tantra'. They I doubt if any *pre-Vedic* Aryans ever came into contact with south Indian Dravidians. The earliest Dravidian references to Aryans are to the nandas and the mauryas. Unless one wants to take seriously the claim that the three kings of the drAviDa land fed both the opposing armies in the Mahabharata war, one can't find concrete evidence of any earlier contact of Dravidians with Aryans. We can safely exclude the Indus Valley population, as far as south Indian Dravidians are concerned, for the simple reason that there is no recollection of ever having populated that region in the Tamil texts. Also, if the Aryans used the art forms of the Dravidians in the south, they also used the art forms of the Greeks and the Romans effectively in the north, especially in the north-west. The architecture of Gandhara is well-known for its Greek influences. And these art forms were used more often to propagate Buddhism than a syncretic 'tantra'. It took many centuries for the developed tantra to influence Buddhism. > were very successful in the north and they were successful in the south also. A syncretic religion drawing from Aryan and Dravidian elements was indeec successful in the south to a large extent, but the story in the north becomes debatable. The earliest Dravidian sources do not have any memory of having been driven from the north to the south. Whatever the population of the Indus Valley may have been, one cannot claim that the Gangetic basin was populated by Dravidians before the Aryans moved in. Who then were the non-Aryan peoples in those regions. As far as one can make out, they must have been the tribes like the santhAls, the bhils and the goNDs. These groups have been left alone for millenia by those who followed the Vedas. It is only in recent times, with the spread of Islam and Christianity among these tribes, that efforts are being made in certain quarters to Hinduize them. Even in the south, tribes like the Todas have been left alone, both by their immediate neighbours, the Dravidians proper, and the incoming Aryans. > However, this religion seems to have elicited criticism at least from a > subset of the Vedic Aryan as well as Dravidian. The criticism of > tirugnAnacampantar by the relatives of the bard tirunIlakaNTar suggests this. > (When the three Tamil kings of the Classical Tamil period, failed to defeat > pAri,an independent chieftain, the chieftain's poet-friend advised tham that > if they go as bards and dancers and perform before him he would give the > kingdom along with his own life. Apparently they did that and eliminated him. > I think the weakness of Dravidians for music and dance, etc. is still there > if one considers the film stars' influence on Tamil political life!) This is overstating the issue about the syncretic religion of tantra, and the role of the Aryans in using Dravidian music and dance forms to propagate it. However, the deleterious influence of movie stars in Tamil Nadu cannot be emphasized enough! I think that from the earliest times, even before they came into any contact with Aryans, Tamil speaking people had made a quasi-religion out of their language, their geography and their arts. iyal and iSai are both attributed to God Siva, and the iSai itself is classified according to the five regions of Tamil land. The Vedic Aryan contribution to this attitude seems to be minimal. The Saiva religion propagated by the nAyanmArs only pays token lip-service to the Vedas. And the music and dance that was pressed into religious service, particularly temple service, remained the domain of non-brAhmaNa, therefore presumably non-Aryan, communities. Finally, tirujnAnacampantar and tirunIlakaNTar are not exactly contemporaries of pAri, are they? How is jnAnacampantar responsible for pAri's defeat? Is there some story here? Of course, in recent times, Carnatic music has been overtly devotional/religious in its context, but that is traceable only to the 16th century CE or so, when Purandaradasa and other singer-saints consciously tried to propagate vaishNavism through music. Earlier authors, from bharata to SArngadeva recognize music and dance as secular arts, although not exclusively so. A case can be made that music and dance are increasingly becoming the vehicle of or even supplanting the role of religion among expatriate Indian communities, but that is besides the point here. > I think the pre-Bhakti Tamil texts, even though they might be chronologically > late, has recorded elements of culture which goes back to pre-Vedic times. I > think Indologists may find it profitable to devote more to the study of Tamil > texts from this perspective. They can see possible pre-cursors of 'tantric' > traditions. For example, the vETTuva vari section of CilappatikAram dealing > with the worship of the Goddess can be compared to other similar events in > Classical Tamil. One can see secular events transforming into religious > events similar to iRaivan the king being replaced by iRaivan the deity, > viRali the dancer being replaced by tEvarATiyAr the dancer. Yes, Indologists must devote more effort to study Tamil texts, and they must appreciate the richness of the Tamil sources more, but in this particular context, I'm not sure if anything new or particularly original will come out of it. Already, the "Dravidian" is a convenient category into which one lumps all non-Vedic elements. A conspicuous gap will also remain in helping the interpretation of the Indus Valley as a Dravidian culture, because of the absolute lack of reference to it in the Tamil literature. Besides, from the point of view of tantra and tAntric religion, this is slightly confusing to me. Is the Aryan-Dravidian interaction supposed to result in a 'tAntric' religion, by definition? Or is the general transformation of the secular into the religious what one calls 'tAntric'? But then, such a conversion seems very much more prevalent in south India than in the north. kaNNagi, the faithful wife, becomes transformed into the goddess pattini who is worshipped by kings. The pANDyan princess is worshipped as mInAkshI, the Goddess. These remain uniquely Dravidian, rather than being features of a syncretic tantra arising out of Aryan-Dravidian interaction. Again, this raises the question, what about the origins of Kashmir Saivism, and its associated tAntric literature? Although a lot of the texts of Kashmir Saivism were written by south Indian authors, the fact remains that the school developed in the Himalayan foothills, centuries after the pre-Vedic Aryan had vanished, and with little input from the south. And the Dravidian has never been postulated to have lived in the Kashmir valley. > I think Kerala is a model of what could have happened in Punjab 2500 years > earlier. Kerala, known for its tantric practices, can be studied with respect > to hypergamy, language change, religious change and continuity as an example > of history repeating itself. Au contraire, Kerala always sticks out like a sore thumb (no offence intended) as compared to the rest of India. It is known as much for its adherence to Vedic practices as to its tAntric practices. Hypergamy existed in Kerala because of its simultaneous practice of matriarchy and patriarchy among different communities. It is too much of a stretch to say that all Dravidians must have originally been matriarchical peoples, upon whom patriarchy and patrilineal inheritance were imposed by the incoming Aryans. Even the cankam literature does not support such a contention with respect to the Tamil people. Language change in Kerala is a result of a conscious medieval attempt to freely use Sanskritic forms in combination with the koDun-tamil of the earlier cera kingdom. By its very uniqueness, Kerala seems to be rather the exception than the rule in the interaction between Veda followers (Aryans/Brahmins, call them what you will) and others. In summary, my questions about Indian cultural history are many. 1. Is it 'tantrification'? If so, what exactly is 'tantra'? 2. Is such 'tantrification' mainly a result of Dravidian interaction with Aryan? Then what about later non-Dravidian sources of 'tantra', such as Kashmir Saivism? 3. Presumably, we know something about the Vedic Aryan. Who is his Dravidian contemporary? Did he live in any part of north India, specifically the Indus Valley? If yes, how come the Dravidian proper, the south Indian, remains silent about this in his Tamil literature? Why does he regard the Dravida land as being defined by Kumari in the south and the Vengadam hill (Tirupati) in the north? In the absence of evidence from Tamil literature, what positive evidence exists to say that the Dravidian ever lived north of the vindhyas? Is there tangible connection between the Dravidian of the Tamil land in the cankam age, and the pre-Vedic inhabitant of the Indus Valley (call it Sarasvati valley, if you will)? 4. If not the Dravidians, who were the non-Vedic or non-Aryan groups in the Gangetic basin that the Vedic Aryan encountered during his migration eastward? What evidence exists to label such a non-Aryan group as a Dravidian? 5. The interaction between Aryan and non-Aryan resulted in a composite culture, called Hindu/tAntric/whatever. Which are the elements in this composite culture that arise from non-Vedic Aryans as opposed to non-Aryans? 6. At what period of time does the Vedic Aryan lose his Vedic Aryan character in favor of the composite 'tAntric'/Hindu character? 7. What about the north-east? Does the Vedic Aryan ever reach the region of Assam before he exchanges his "Vedic" identity for a composite one? 8. Finally, what about the non-Aryan, non-Dravidian, non-indigenous peoples like the Greeks, the Sakas and others who were absorbed into the Indian population? Were the mechanisms of such absorption Vedic/Buddhist/Jain/Vaishnava/Saiva/Tantric in nature? 9. Why were some populations absorbed into a composite 'tAntric'/Hindu identity, while others like the various muNDa tribes, the Jews and the early Christians remained distinct? I feel that any theory of Indian cultural history that wants to be comprehensive must try to answer most of these questions. S. Vidyasankar ps. Behind all these analyses, there seems to be an underlying assumption that the categories "Indo-European" and "pre-Vedic/Vedic/later-Vedic Aryan" constitute a race/tribe distinct from other Indian groups. One cannot overemphasize the early admonition that a linguistic grouping does not mean a racial/tribal grouping. From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Thu May 8 07:06:29 1997 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 07:06:29 +0000 Subject: Conf. Rel. in South India Message-ID: <161227030106.23782.581613902241532324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am forwarding this announcement at the request of the organizers. Please contact them for further information. Lance Nelson --------------------------------------------------------- Conference on Religion in South India Victoria University in the University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario, Canada Thursday evening, June 12 - Sunday noon, June 15th "South Indian Religious Traditions in the Diaspora" Programme Thursday Evening, June 12, 1997 7:30 Opening Reception and introductions 8:30-10:30 Diaspora Religion in Three Regions: Case Studies Paul Younger "The Persistence of Mariyamman Ritual Foms in the Caribbean" Paula Richman "The Migration of a Text: Black Feminists in Britain Perform the Ramlila" Katheryn Hansen "Tyagaraja Festivals in North America" Friday Morning, June 13, 1997 8:45-11:45 Diaspora Religions in a Regional Contexts: Ontario Anne M. Pearson "Mothers, Daughters and Ritual Fasts: The Reconstructions and Transmisison of Hindu Practices Among Hindu Immigrant Women in Southern Ontario" Debbie Waldock "The South Indian Temple in Toronto" Albert Kafui Wuaki "Intenting the Hindu Tradition: The Radha Krishna Temple Tradition, a Guyanese Hindu Community in Cambridge, Ontario" Friday Afternoon and Evening: Site Visits to Temples in the Toronto Area Saturday Morning, June 14, 1997 8:45-11:45 Transplanting Traditions Selva J. Raj "Syro-Malibar Catholics in the American Soil" Whitney Sanford "Balarama Unplugged: A New Image for Balarama in ISKON (and American) Bhakti" Radhika Seker "Coming Out of the 'Kitchen' Closet: the Search for a South Indian Hindu Identity in Western Pluralistic Societies" 11:45-1:00 Lunch 1:00-4:30 Definitions, Negotiations, Classrooms, and Constituencies Robert Lester "Defining Hinduism in the North American Immigrant Temple" Panel Discussion: "Classrooms, Field Trips, Pedagogies: Comparing Disaporas and India(s) in the Study of Religion Joyce Burkhalter Flueckiger, Vasudha Narayanan, and Paul Younger will initiate a general discusison on issues of teaching, observing, reporting, interpreting, and negotiating the study of South Indian religions in the diaspora contexts. Evening: Unscheduled. Sunday, June 15, 1997 8:45-9:45 Concluding Thoughts and Planning for Next Year Costs: (US) $175.00 per person, (Canadian dollar equivalent) This amount includes single room, breakfasts, coffee breaks, and conference registration fee. (US) $160.00 per person, (Canadian dollar equivalent) This amount includes twin (double occupancy), breakfasts, coffee breaks, and conference registration fee. Graduate Students in course may receive a 10% discount. All other meals may be purchased in the cafeteria or at the many ethnic restaurants around the University. Local persons may attend on the understanding they will attend all the sessions. A (Can) $30.00 conference fee will be required. Persons wishing to register should send name, address, phone, email address (if avialable) a check, made out to CRSI, for (US) $50.00 (Canadian equivalent) by June 1, 1997 to: Conference on Religion in South India Asian Studies Program, Candler Library Emory University Atlanta, GA 30322 USA The Conference on Religion in South India is an informal association of scholars in the fields of South Asian Studies and Religious Studies. The Conference sponsors an annual workshop on a theme of current interest. Any further inquires may be directed to the above address. CRSI phone is 404-727-6820, or Asian_Studies at learnlink.emory.edu. From sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au Wed May 7 22:20:33 1997 From: sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au (Sugandha Johar) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 08:20:33 +1000 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030087.23782.14990538884998333055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> The real discrimination in >> India is based on caste and not color although Varna is also a synonym >> for color. When they refer to color they instinctively mean Varna. > >Ohh, come on! Indians can be extremely obsessed with skin color, and will >prefer lighter skin, especially in the person they want to marry. Look at >any matrimonial ad in any national newspaper. You will leave with the >impression that all Indian girls are fair, or have a "wheatish" >complexion, and that all Indian boys are tall, dark and handsome. Of >course, the girls are all beautiful and "homely" at the same time! > >We may not have many words for distinguishing among various tints and >shades of skin color, but we perceive such differences nonetheless. Given >a population, the judgments are always relative, but the attitudes towards >skin color do exist. I postulate that Indian languages do not have many >words for different kinds of pigmentation, only because we like to >maintain the convenient fiction that we are all light-skinned, and that >if dark skin occurs, it is an aberration rather than the rule! Of course, >too light a skin color can be a minus, especially if accompanied by light >eyes and hair - in Bombay, it is standard procedure to tease one's >konkaNastha brAhmaNa classmates with an allegation of some unknown >European (particularly Portuguese) ancestry. Really - i hav never come across that one - and I should know. i am from Bambay, and a konkaNastha brAhmaNa too !!!! >The instinctive Indian attitudes towards skin color are seen very >readily among Indians settled abroad, presumably an educated and >enlightened set. Don't tell me you haven't heard Indians in the US >referring to a black man as "kallU" and Hispanics as "makku" (derived from >the word 'Mexican', makku has a negative meaning in south Indian tongues). >Of course, we Indians can be very democratic in our attitudes: the word >"gorA" can be as derogatory as "kallU"! > >In India, any "instinctive" reference to Varna when talking of skin color >is based upon the assumption that a dark skinned person has to be >necessarily of a lower caste than oneself. Although one can find the >darkest skins among brAhmaNas, even in Bihar and other northern places, >and very light skin among some of the scheduled castes and tribes. > Not just lower caste - but just lower. I have had to tell people off, and even ask some to leave my home to protect my daughter from acquiring a complex because of her skin colour which is darker than mine. By the way, i can thingk of atleast a few different words for describibg skin colour shades in marathi and hindi. Obviously there shuld be many more in otehr Indian languages. Sugandha From kiparsky at csli.Stanford.EDU Thu May 8 15:28:53 1997 From: kiparsky at csli.Stanford.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 08:28:53 -0700 Subject: Nihali Message-ID: <161227030110.23782.18117836487035880754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to the SIL database, this language has no known genetic affiliation. I had thought all the languages of India were readily classifiable as either Indo-Iranian, Dravidian, Tibeto-Burman, or Munda. Does anyone have more information about Nihali? NIHALI: 5,000 (1987). Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Buldana, Akola, East Nimar, Amravati districts; mainly around Temi (Tembi) village in Nimar District, Jalgaon Subdistrict; 12 hamlets around Toranmal. Language Isolate. Paul Kiparsky From sarin at erols.com Thu May 8 12:45:23 1997 From: sarin at erols.com (sarin at erols.com) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 08:45:23 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030104.23782.4850759885984366586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have noticed this kind of discrimination among members of the same >family, so it cannot be Varna. People have shown me their children and >pointed to one of them and said, for all the children to hear, "See how >dark she is, how will we ever get her married..." Parents know that a darker skinned girl will not be treated as well by her inlaws (unless of course, they are even darker than she is). Discimination on the basis of color seems, unfortunately, fairly universal (except amongst African tribes perhaps?). An Indian family I know visited a beach in Maryland in the late 1950's. The wife and kids who were fairly light skinned were allowed on the beach, but the husband who was darker was forbidden to enter. They all went home. >An interesting corollary is that in my observation South Asians, >especially women, cannot imagine the concept of the "suntan"-- the idea >that anyone would voluntarily *darken* his or her skin color even the >tinsiest bit is just inconceivable... Remember, "only mad dogs and English men"! Even after 23 years in the US, I still instinctively avoid basking in the sun. Besides, I know, that even today, if I traveled 50 miles away from the city, I would have trouble if I "tanned" further. Indians are definitely very sensitive to nuances in skin color. But here in the United States "color" is an indication of race, and is equated with lack of intelligence and poor social status. Amita Sarin From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu May 8 07:09:46 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 09:09:46 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030097.23782.18351122878965202879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen W. Thrasher wrote: >Could "municipality-colored" be anything like what in the US we call >"dirty blonde?" Or is it paler? As I use it, "dirty blonde" refers or at >least can refer to a blonde shading into brown, somewhat like the color of >brass, though I guess I also use it for something paler than brass. I think the colour of brass would be to "strong". "Municipality-coloured" means something that is drab and dreary, the sort of stuff your municipality might produce when making a public building, or blessing you with public information in a particularly unappealing brochure. It could probably be described as light brown shading into grey, and is as I said very lack-lustre. Beautiful hair has strong, vibrant colours, whether it be blonde, chestnut or black. Lars Martin Fosse From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu May 8 16:46:06 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 11:46:06 -0500 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030112.23782.11607452400512994007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sugandha wrote: "By the way, i can thingk of at least a few different words for describibg skin colour shades in marathi and hindi. Obviously there shuld be many more in otehr Indian languages." I would be interested in knowing what these words are. Thanks. Fred Smith From lbalraj at worldnet.att.net Thu May 8 15:46:55 1997 From: lbalraj at worldnet.att.net (Loreli Balraj) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 11:46:55 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030107.23782.12778663883595060934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Despite the emphasis on the beauty of fair skin in India today...isn't there an old story that ancient Indians heard tales from travelers of white-skinned, blue-eyed people and laughingly denied such tales, saying the gods could not be so cruel as to make such people? Loreli Balraj (happen to be a "municipal blonde" married to a beautifully dark-skinned Indian) From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Thu May 8 10:18:48 1997 From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 12:18:48 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit (!!!) Message-ID: <161227030101.23782.16828442460907457121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:15 07/05/1997 BST, you wrote: >Lars Martin Fosse has on Wed, 7 May 1997 >19:50:18 BST written as follows: >>Yes there is. In the Kama Sutra. > >I have not read original Kama Sutra but from what I have read it only >talks about heterosexual acts, with a great deal of variety and >unabashed refinements. While growing up in India I had heard the jokes >and snide remarks about homosexuality only when referring to Muslim >rulers whose religion claims to be derived from Bible too. I did not >find any reference to homosexuality in any of the religious literature >native to India. Dear skeptic, 1) You should take a look at kAma-sUtra 2.9 (prakaraNa 19, aupariSTaka : fellatio), which begins : 2.9.1 dvividhA tRtIya-prakRtiH strI-rUpiNI puruSa-rUpiNI ca. The third gender is of two kinds : having the shape of a female and having the shape of a male. 2.9.2 tatra strI-rUpiNI striyA veSam AlApaM lIlAM bhAvaM mRdutvaM bhIrutvaM mugdhatAm asahiSNutAM vrIDAM cAnukurvIta. The one assuming the shape of a female must imitate the dress, talk, charm, attitude, tenderness, timidity, thoughtlessness, weakness and modesty suitable for a woman. 2.9.3 tasya vadane jaghana-karma. tad aupariSTakam AcakSate. The action [usually performed] in the vagina takes place in its mouth. It is called fellatio (aupariSTaka). [for details, see the remaining part of the chapter] 2) The nArada-smRti mentions (12.10 sqq) pANdaka. This word is usually translated by enuch, but the 14 kinds of "enuchs" (12.10) are not castrated males, but men who cannot have "normal" (i.e. resulting in the procreation of offspring) sexual relations with women. Among them the mukhe-bhaga- (12.13) "using his mouth as a vulva"... See the notes of J. Jolly (in latin, to keep them from innocent eyes) on nArada 12.13 (SBE XXXIII, The Minor Law Books, p. 167-68). 3) As to sodomy, it is mentioned only once, in the context of (citra: unusual ) heterosexual intercourse, as a southern practice at KS. 2.6.49: adho-rataM pAyAv api dAkSiNatyAnAm. If you happen to read French, you can take a look at "Perversion et hi?rarchie au N?pal au XIXe si?cle: un chapitre in?dit du code de 1853: gAD mArA-ko (de la sodomie)" Journal Asiatique 1983 pp.281-344; esp. pp.318-324 which deal with the attitude of classical sanskrit literature towards deviant practices. Ancient India was not perfectly "straight", but the attitude towards deviant sexual practices was very tolerant (such was in fact the attitude of ancient Greeks and Romans). Pleasure was integrated in the aims of man, not condemned as sinful... Best regards. J.F. From bpj at netg.se Thu May 8 12:04:13 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 14:04:13 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030103.23782.7902683319737501105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:13 8.5.1997 +0100, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: >Is there not an injunction in Manu against marrying people with >reddish hair? In South India, reddish hair is not considered >admirable. The specific term used is "Sempattai" which is derogatary >and is said to be due to not grooming one's hair well by "daily oiling >and combing"! The funny thing is that this applies also to people >whose hair has a natural reddish or brownish tinge. I have also been >told by some people that after a ritual tonsure, a child's soft >reddish hair will become thick and black, and not to worry etc! I was told that that injunction in Manu -- which is found among the excerpts in Lanman's "Reader" -- was a warning against getting seduced by a YoginI. Apparently these were thought of as witches and known for two things: coloring their hair red (with henna?) and ritually killing their lovers... Philip, a hiranyake$in ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Thu May 8 03:47:14 1997 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 15:47:14 +1200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030095.23782.11120672173413841169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JAYABARATHI writes: > a Vedic referance. In this referance, the Brahmins are > said to possess yellow hair and whiskers. >... > In the same source , Indra was described as having stout > neck, very muscular body and yellow hair and whiskers and beard. That is surprising since it seems that people with yellow hair were held in low regard in the Indian subcontinent. Pliny the Elder notes in his Description of Taprobane (Sri Lanka): They also informed us that the side of their island which lies opposite to India is 10,000 stadia in length, and runs south-east - that beyond the Hemodi mountains, they look towards the Seres, with whom they had become acquainted by commerce, also that the father of Rachia had often gone to their country, and that these Seres came to meet their visitors on their arrival. These people, they said, exceeded the normal stature of mankind, and had yellow hair and blue eyes; the tones of their voices were harsh and uncouth, and they could not communicate their thoughts by language. -- Natural History: Book VI. Is there not an injunction in Manu against marrying people with reddish hair? In South India, reddish hair is not considered admirable. The specific term used is "Sempattai" which is derogatary and is said to be due to not grooming one's hair well by "daily oiling and combing"! The funny thing is that this applies also to people whose hair has a natural reddish or brownish tinge. I have also been told by some people that after a ritual tonsure, a child's soft reddish hair will become thick and black, and not to worry etc! -& From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu May 8 16:11:32 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 18:11:32 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030109.23782.12379925353367553906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Parents know that a darker skinned girl will not be treated as well by her >inlaws (unless of course, they are even darker than she is). Discimination >on the basis of color seems, unfortunately, fairly universal (except >amongst African tribes perhaps?). I have been told by reliable sources that Amharis (who are chokolate-coloured) look down upon the blacker Sudanese, who are regarded as inferior. In Norway the Amharis suffer the misfortune of being regarded by Norwegians as "negros", which apparently is a bitter pill to swallow. As these stories appear on my screen, the sheer folly of racial prejudices becomes apparent. If you manage to forget the suffering that invariably go with them, they are always absurd and ridiculous, sometimes hilarious. Man is a hierarchical animal, but there should be limits to the ways and means used....... >Remember, "only mad dogs and English men"! Even after 23 years in the US, >I still instinctively avoid basking in the sun. Besides, I know, that even >today, if I traveled 50 miles away from the city, I would have trouble if I >"tanned" further. Indians are definitely very sensitive to nuances in skin >color. But here in the United States "color" is an indication of race, and >is equated with lack of intelligence and poor social status. I suppose this is the ultimate absurdity: Millions of white people spending hours in the sun (and often rather a lot of money to get to a sunny place, as we do here in Scandinavia) in order to look like someone they would despise if s/he where born with the skin colour they strive to obtain. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse a born mleccha From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Thu May 8 22:14:23 1997 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 18:14:23 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030113.23782.15768503642224074365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Despite the emphasis on the beauty of fair skin in India today...isn't >there an old story that ancient Indians heard tales from travelers of >white-skinned, blue-eyed people and laughingly denied such tales, saying >the gods could not be so cruel as to make such people? > There appear to have been such features known in the 2nd c. BC. In the MahAbhASya on 2.2.6 and 5.5.15, Patanjali quotes a verse giving the characteristics of BrAhmaNas, then describes some features. The text as found in Kielhorn's edition and others has gauraH zucyAcAraH piGgalaH kapilakezaH. In addition, a different reading is noted in the Uddyota and RatnaprakAza: piGgalakapilakezaH. With the first reading, a BrAhmaNa is described as being white, of pure behavior, yellow-brownish and with reddish-brown hair. Under the second, he is white, of pure behavior and with hair that is yellowish to reddish brown. It is understandable that NAgeZa exerts effort to explain gauraH under the first reading. In his commentary, KaiyaTa remarks that this harks back to an earlier time, and that the same characteristics are seen to continue rarely even now-a-days. George Cardona From fp7 at columbia.edu Thu May 8 22:18:10 1997 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 18:18:10 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030115.23782.4142000060127923116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 May 1997, S Krishna wrote: > No less a person( or God) than Lord Krsna is supposed to > have been "discriminated"( or at least made fun of)because of his > dark complexion as the following lines( written by Surdas) tell us: >.... > The underlined words tell us that Krsna bhagvaan also had his leg > pulled , if not "discriminated" against by his playmates, who belonged > to the same caste as Krsna( gvAl/Cowherd). The early part of the life > of Krsna is sprinkled with such incidents. Keeping in view our own > contemporary experiences as well as such mythological "evidence", is > it still possible to convince ourselves of the fact that discrimination is/was > based on caste and NOT on color? > > Krishna > Speaking of darker and lighter colors, anybody who looks at modern comic books or "god posters" can verify that as a rule Krishna is no longer the classic dark blue-black color, but a delicate pastel blue. If anything, the pastel seems to be getting lighter every year... From aditya at smart1.net Thu May 8 22:25:12 1997 From: aditya at smart1.net (aditya at smart1.net) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 22:25:12 +0000 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030116.23782.9048691987976251102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan has on Wed, 7 May 1997 21:46:20 BST written as follows: >Ohh, come on! Indians can be extremely obsessed with skin color, and will >prefer lighter skin, especially in the person they want to marry. Look at >any matrimonial ad in any national newspaper. You will leave with the >impression that all Indian girls are fair, or have a "wheatish" >complexion, and that all Indian boys are tall, dark and handsome. Of >course, the girls are all beautiful and "homely" at the same time! You just echoed my argument and sentiments. >We may not have many words for distinguishing among various tints and languages have important role in determining the attitudes of the people. Lack of such refinement indicates a lack of desire to differentiate. e.g. in most Indian languages there are four words fo a single word 'unce'. >shades of skin color, but we perceive such differences nonetheless. Given >a population, the judgments are always relative, but the attitudes towards >skin color do exist. I postulate that Indian languages do not have many >words for different kinds of pigmentation, only because we like to >maintain the convenient fiction that we are all light-skinned, and that >if dark skin occurs, it is an aberration rather than the rule! Of course, >too light a skin color can be a minus, especially if accompanied by light >eyes and hair - in Bombay, it is standard procedure to tease one's >konkaNastha brAhmaNa classmates with an allegation of some unknown >European (particularly Portuguese) ancestry. > >The instinctive Indian attitudes towards skin color are seen very >readily among Indians settled abroad, presumably an educated and >enlightened set. Don't tell me you haven't heard Indians in the US >referring to a black man as "kallU" and Hispanics as "makku" (derived from >the word 'Mexican', makku has a negative meaning in south Indian tongues). >Of course, we Indians can be very democratic in our attitudes: the word >"gorA" can be as derogatory as "kallU"! > >In India, any "instinctive" reference to Varna when talking of skin color >is based upon the assumption that a dark skinned person has to be >necessarily of a lower caste than oneself. Although one can find the >darkest skins among brAhmaNas, even in Bihar and other northern places, >and very light skin among some of the scheduled castes and tribes. > >Vidyasankar > > Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra Phone: 954-746-0442 e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: Humanity's first sin was faith; the first virtue was doubt. From dran at cs.albany.edu Fri May 9 02:40:04 1997 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Thu, 08 May 97 22:40:04 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification? Message-ID: <161227030118.23782.13544264016486460062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > I think Kerala is a model of what could have happened in Punjab 2500 years > > earlier. Kerala, known for its tantric practices, can be studied with respect > > to hypergamy, language change, religious change and continuity as an example > > of history repeating itself. > > Au contraire, Kerala always sticks out like a sore thumb (no offence ^^^^^^^^^^ > intended) as compared to the rest of India. ^^^^^^^^ That's okay, Vidya. I am quite sure none are taken. Vidya's point is also relevant regarding the earlier generalization about the influence of movie actors in South-Indian politics: Movie actors have had great success in politics in Tamil Nadu and Andhra, and perhaps some in Karnataka (Rajkumar?). But they have had no influence at all in Kerala politics. Even the reactions to Hindi couldn't be more different than between that in Kerala and in Tamil Nadu. There has been virtually no protest whatsoever in Kerala over this, as far as I know. I studied in Kerala from '61 till '73 --- I don't remember any politician or educator objecting to Hindi during that time. Narendran -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paliath Narendran Associate Professor URL: http://www.cs.albany.edu/~dran/ Department of Computer Science phone: (518)442-3387 University at Albany --- SUNY fax: (518)442-5638 Albany, NY 12222 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Fri May 9 09:51:58 1997 From: w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Wolfgang Behr) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 10:51:58 +0100 Subject: Nihali Message-ID: <161227030121.23782.11884510373919260951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The genetic affiliation of Nihali continues to be disputed, indeed. It has been variously classified as an isolate, a divergent branch of Munda, a non-Munda Austroasiatic language, as related to Afroasiatic and/or Nostratic etc. The now "classical" source on the problem is: FBJ Kuiper (1962), "Nahali: A Comparative Study", _Mededelingen der Koninlijke Nederlandse Akademie v. Wetenschapen_, Afd. Letterk., 25 (5): 239-352 Cf. also FBJ Kuiper (1966), "The sources of the Nahali vocabulary", in: NH Zide ed., _Studies in Com- parative Austroasiatic Linguistics_, The Hague [:Mouton & Co.], 57-81 The last issue of _Mother Tongue_ (2, 1996) contains a long paper on the Nihali language and its proposed relatives by Asha Mundlay, with comments & discussion by PK Benedict, JD Bengtson, V Blazhek, AB Dolgopolsky, HC Fleming, A Vovin & NH Zide. Best wishes, Wolfgang Behr At 18:21 08.05.1997 BST, Paul Kiparsky wrote: >According to the SIL database, this language has no known genetic >affiliation. I had thought all the languages of India were readily >classifiable as either Indo-Iranian, Dravidian, Tibeto-Burman, or >Munda. Does anyone have more information about Nihali? > >NIHALI: 5,000 (1987). Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Buldana, Akola, >East Nimar, Amravati districts; mainly around Temi (Tembi) village in >Nimar District, Jalgaon Subdistrict; 12 hamlets around >Toranmal. Language Isolate. > >Paul Kiparsky ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wolfgang Behr Sinologie, J.W. Goethe-Universitaet, Dantestr.4-6, P.O.B. 111 932, D-60054 Frankfurt/Main, Germany Tel.: (o) +49-69-798-22852, Fax: +49-69-798-22873 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From astpf at LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU Fri May 9 03:05:48 1997 From: astpf at LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 13:05:48 +1000 Subject: The vowel .r/ri in Sanskrit and Hindi Message-ID: <161227030119.23782.4490813231842709860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members Would you agree with the statement: 'Most Hindi speakers pronounce the vowel .r as if it were the ri in rip.' If you do then when do you think this change from the vowel sound .r to ri began to take place and is their a similar variation in Sanskrit? thanks Dr Peter G Friedlander Department of Asian Studies La Trobe University Bundoora 3084 Victoria Australia tel:(03) 9479 2064 From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri May 9 17:51:07 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 13:51:07 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030127.23782.12531337573315765531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JAYABARATHI wrote: >[...] In the same source , Indra was described as having stout > neck, very muscular body and yellow hair and whiskers and beard. I thought that everything connected to Indra was supposed to be reddish. There is wide variation in the location of color boundaries among cultures. I suspect that the boundaries may also drift over time. Given this, how sure are we about the precise meaning of color terms in the Vedas? For example, `hari' is supposed to mean tawny, yellow and green! All dark colors seem to be lumped together, not distinuished by tint. [reminds me of the Hanunoo color terms meantioned by Comrie in his book on typology.] Without precise demarcation of color terms, how can we proceed to talk about hair color, or even horse colors? Were Indra's horses conceived of as roan or yellow (are there horses yellow like lemons?) or green (green horses?)? -Nath From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri May 9 13:04:15 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 14:04:15 +0100 Subject: The vowel .r/ri in Sanskrit and Hindi Message-ID: <161227030123.23782.506845161528280234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Would you agree with the statement: >'Most Hindi speakers pronounce the vowel .r as if it were the ri in rip.' >If you do then when do you think this change from the vowel sound .r to ri >began to take place and is their a similar variation in Sanskrit? >thanks >Dr Peter G Friedlander In Buddhist Sanskrit (as attested in manuscripts from Central Asia and from Gilgit), Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit and Epigraphical Hybrid Sanskrit .r and ri are very often confused; see F. Edgerton, Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary, 3.94,95, and Th. Damsteegt, Epigraphical Hybrid Sanskrit, Leiden 1978, p. 22 f. This shows that the pronounciation of .r as ri must have been common already in the first centuries AD, but it may be much older, though perhaps not accepted by the Panini tradition. Georg v. Simson From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Fri May 9 23:00:56 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 17:00:56 -0600 Subject: Thoughts on Sanskritization Message-ID: <161227030130.23782.10661520881844123795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Thoughts on Sanskritization Dr. P. Narendran wrote about the absence in 1960s of any protest for Hindi in Kerala as opposed to Tamil Nadu. I think this difference of opinion exists for atleast 5/6 centuries in the neighboring states. Tamil always has 12 vowels and 18 consonants called as soul(uyir) and mey(body). All the phonemes arising from consonant-vowel combinations are called uyirmey or living letters. ****************************************************************** Uyir: (12 vowels) a aa i ii u uu e ee ai o oo au mey: (18 consonants) k ng c nj T N t n^ p m y r l v z L R n ******************************************************************* Tamil has imported only s, sh, j and h from grantha letters. That too sparingly used in writing. eg. mainly for spelling Sanskrit words (Tyagaraja's Telugu kritis in tamil script or Sanskrit sloka books from Ramakrishna Math). It does not have the varga letters for k (kh, g, gh), c, T, t, p. Tamil resistance to include these additional characters is because it would lead to excessive use of Sanskrit words and native Tamil/Dravidian words will face extinction, Ezhuttaccan changed this in Malayalam and made the varga letters of hard consonants part and parcel of Malayalam alphabet. That is why he is called 'Father of Alphabet' - Ezhuttaccan. I would think this aspect of Malayalam language and convergence towards Indo-Aryan has a lot to do with the observed non-resistance. N. Ganesan From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sat May 10 01:25:38 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 18:25:38 -0700 Subject: Thoughts on Sanskritization Message-ID: <161227030137.23782.13749957208247014206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 May 1997 GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > Tamil always has 12 vowels and 18 consonants > called as soul(uyir) and mey(body). All the phonemes > arising from consonant-vowel combinations are called > uyirmey or living letters. > > ****************************************************************** > Uyir: > (12 vowels) a aa i ii u uu e ee ai o oo au > > mey: > (18 consonants) k ng c nj T N t n^ p m y r l v z L R n > > ******************************************************************* > > Tamil has imported only s, sh, j and h from grantha letters. > That too sparingly used in writing. eg. mainly for spelling > Sanskrit words (Tyagaraja's Telugu kritis in tamil script or > Sanskrit sloka books from Ramakrishna Math). It does not have > the varga letters for k (kh, g, gh), Shouldn't we be distinguishing between the script used for writing a language from the language as a spoken entity? Does anyone *pronounce* gan(g)gaikoNDacOzhan as kan(g)kaikoNTacOzhan? Surely, Tamil speakers distinguish between k and g in speech, although not in writing. Similarly, the sounds s and S frequently occur in speech, although the script allows strictly only for c (e.g. sol/Sol as variants of col). Another question - do the old vaTTezhuttu and the older brAhmI used in southern Indian inscriptions distinguish within a given varga? If yes, at what period did this change? In other words, did Tamil script drop already existing signs within a varga, or did Malayalam import additional signs to extend an existing set? > c, T, t, p. Tamil resistance to include > these additional characters is because it would lead to excessive use > of Sanskrit words and native Tamil/Dravidian words will face extinction, This seems to be putting the cart before the horse. It is the old resistance to excessive use of Sanskrit words that leads to the modern resistance to include additional letters in the script, not the other way round. Note that I am not making any value judgments here. It is the Tamil resistance to excessive use of Sanskrit that has helped it to maintain its identity to date. Varying degrees of accommodation of and resistance to words of Sanskrit origin are seen among all south Indian languages. Vidyasankar From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sat May 10 01:35:09 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 18:35:09 -0700 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030139.23782.6709118584690898427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Replies to msg 08 May 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) > > vce> From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan > >> >konkaNastha brAhmaNa classmates with an allegation of some unknown >> >European (particularly Portuguese) ancestry. ---------------------- This is interesting!( i.e. Portuguese ancestory). To the best of my knowledge(I am NO expert on geneaology), the "Sahyadri khand", the book/text that is normally quoted as the ultimate source on everything about Konkanastha origin says that Parasurama is supposed to brought seven(?) dead sailors to life( on the Konkan coast). It is RUMORED (I don't think that the Sahyadri khand mentions this) that these sailors were of Greek Origin. > >Among Smarta Brahmins in Karnataka there is a belief that the fair skin colour >of many Ayyangars is proof that they are not good, pure Brahmins. In this case, >the former French settlement of Pondicherry is pointed to as the source of the >fairness. I remember hearing that the British/Irish also had something to do with this. I know a few Brahmins (Smartha/Madhva) who claim that St Patricks day is an unofficial holiday among Iyengars in the Mandya district :-). Atleast one of them claims that ladies put on GREEN colored saries and the menfolk put on dhoties with a GREEN colored border on this day:-),:-). Apparently, the Gowd Sarasvat Brahmin community is the only(?) fair skinned community in this area that is of pure Indian descent :-) Krishna --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri May 9 18:19:48 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 20:19:48 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030128.23782.16298174678871234544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:59 9.05.97 BST, you wrote: >JAYABARATHI wrote: >>[...] In the same source , Indra was described as having stout >> neck, very muscular body and yellow hair and whiskers and beard. > >I thought that everything connected to Indra was supposed to be >reddish. The red colour mentioned in connection with Indra could also be due to the fact that red is the colour of the second estate (or varna). White should be the colour that belongs to the brahmins and black the colour that belongs to the vish. >There is wide variation in the location of color boundaries among >cultures. I suspect that the boundaries may also drift over time. >Given this, how sure are we about the precise meaning of color terms >in the Vedas? For example, `hari' is supposed to mean tawny, yellow >and green! There is a similar problem with Greek colours. The only way to know, is when colour terms are referred to natural phenomena that haven't changed since ancient times. E.g. white may be referred to the egg of a hen, red to a given kind of red berries, brown to soil etc. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Fri May 9 15:51:47 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 20:51:47 +0500 Subject: The vowel .r/ri in Sanskrit and Hindi Message-ID: <161227030124.23782.5579865953119230810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 May Georg v. Simson has written >>Would you agree with the statement: >>'Most Hindi speakers pronounce the vowel .r as if it were the ri in rip.' >>If you do then when do you think this change from the vowel sound .r to ri >>began to take place and is their a similar variation in Sanskrit? >>thanks >>Dr Peter G Friedlander >In Buddhist Sanskrit (as attested in manuscripts from Central Asia and from >Gilgit), Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit and Epigraphical Hybrid Sanskrit .r and >ri are very often confused; see F. Edgerton, Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit >Dictionary, 3.94,95, and Th. Damsteegt, Epigraphical Hybrid Sanskrit, >Leiden 1978, p. 22 f. This shows that the pronounciation of .r as ri must >have been common already in the first centuries AD, but it may be much >older, though perhaps not accepted by the Panini tradition. >Georg v. Simson In Paninn's Siksha " .r tu ra sha moordhanyaah" the affinity of .r and consonant r is recognized. The guna of .r being ar also indicates the same affinity. Sarma. "As the sphere of the known increases, the area which is in contact with the unknown also increases." ------- C.E.M.Joad ----------------------------------------------------------------------- D.V.N.Sarma (Retired Reader in Physics, Osmania University, Hyderabad) 12-13-371, Street No.2, Tarnaka, Hyderabad, 500 017, INDIA Telephone 091-040-7018158 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jaybee at tm.net.my Sat May 10 06:12:46 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Fri, 09 May 97 23:12:46 -0700 Subject: black hair Message-ID: <161227030261.23782.12875741974482685466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > > Dear Indologists, > I'm back and I apologize again :-) for my 'mouvement d'humeur'. > After my leaving, I received many and various private mails and I > thank all sincerely (including injurious ones). > > I find perhaps in this mailing an answer to some communicati > > About hair's colour, I was not asking *today*'s names for this > meaning and I know the fair/black criterium (I was good friend one year > long with a noble indonesian (kshatriya) and he hated the sun of the beach, > too dangerous for his honourable pale skin). My problem was in *epic*, > especially the MBh, some twenty centuries ago: > - in MBh II,60,24, draupadI is said atikRSNakezI, this 'ati' > suppose that's not the same for all peoples. > - a friend said me (alas without references) duryodhana was red-haired. > - Pr. Jayabarathi gave here some examples of golden, red or yellow > hairs in ancient indian corpus. > Dear M.Thillaud, Thank you for coming back. Merci. BTW I am not a Professor. I am only a humble layman.I was a Hospital Director - a Medicine man. Any way, welcome back. Please scroll down.... - in many other eurindian epics the hair's colour is highly > significant (but not the colour of the skin). For example, in Greece, > Menelaus is 'xanthos' (blond-haired) and one of the names of Akhilleus is > ' > - I woul'd be more than happy if yudhiSThira white-haired, bhIma, > hanuman and duryodhana red, arjuna gold, nakula and sahadeva green, blue, > brown or black. > > I thank you in advance, > Dominique > > > P.-S. 2: Can someone give me the e-mail of an indian scholar in botanic, > especially about pharmacological properties of plants ? > P Please try these people; I don't know if they are still at the same address. I wouldn't know their email address. Dr.K.VENKADESAN, "MOOLIGAI MANI" 9,Club Road East, Shenoy Nagar. Madras-30. India. URAIYUR VALAVAN Author of "Therinthum Theriyaatha Thavarangal" C/o Kalagnaan Pathippagam, 31,Pandi Bazaar, Madras-600070, India. I will try to get you more addresses. May be by to-morrow? ` JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah Malaysia. > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat May 10 01:59:18 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 00:59:18 -0100 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030135.23782.4391235511487195446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 08 May 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) vce> From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan > >konkaNastha brAhmaNa classmates with an allegation of some unknown > >European (particularly Portuguese) ancestry. > > Really - i hav never come across that one - and I should know. i am from > Bambay, and a konkaNastha brAhmaNa too !!!! vce> This might be a recent development, but at a place like the vce> IIT Bombay vce> campus, such teasing normally targeted those konkaNasthas vce> who sincerely vce> believed in their superior Aryan descent, or towards those vce> who regretted vce> that they did not have the distinctive gAre DoLe - gore pAn vce> characteristics. The south Indians often resorted to this, vce> as an answer to vce> a remark about their darker skin color. One standard vce> retort: "At least, vce> I'm a pure Dravidian, the only Aryan in you is of European vce> descent". If vce> you were a south Indian brahmin yourself, you just hoped vce> that the Marathi vce> guy did not know enough of southern politics to catch you vce> on that one! Among Smarta Brahmins in Karnataka there is a belief that the fair skin colour of many Ayyangars is proof that they are not good, pure Brahmins. In this case, the former French settlement of Pondicherry is pointed to as the source of the fairness. There are SC/ST groups in northwestern coastal Karnataka who are quite fair-skinned, and in this case too there is a wide-spread belief that the Portuguese had something to do with it. - Robert Zydenbos From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat May 10 02:00:14 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 01:00:14 -0100 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030132.23782.5621730410020743248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 07 May 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) vce> From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan vce> On Wed, 7 May 1997, Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote: > The real discrimination in > India is based on caste and not color although Varna is also a synonym > for color. When they refer to color they instinctively mean Varna. vce> Ohh, come on! Indians can be extremely obsessed with skin vce> color, and will vce> prefer lighter skin, especially in the person they want to vce> marry. Look at vce> any matrimonial ad in any national newspaper. If the newspapers are insufficient evidence, I may refer to my recently published study of Kannada fiction, particularly the two chapters on themes about women and about caste. I have given a summary of a popular novel in which part of the heroine's problem is that her elder sister is dark, hence unmarriable, while the heroine is fair and hence beautiful and desirable. In another novel, the fair (i.e. beautiful) widowed heroine is driven to prostitution and curses her skin colour, for she thinks men would have left her alone if she had been dark. These are only two examples among many. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat May 10 02:02:18 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 01:02:18 -0100 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030133.23782.1919125854672896968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 08 May 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (fp7 at columbia.edu) fe> From: Frances Pritchett fe> Subject: Re: hair's colour in Sanskrit fe> On Wed, 7 May 1997, Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote: > Yes, it is both ironic and paradoxical. The real discrimination in > India is based on caste and not color although Varna is also a synonym > for color. When they refer to color they instinctively mean Varna. fe> I have noticed this kind of discrimination among members of fe> the same fe> family, so it cannot be Varna. People have shown me their fe> children and fe> pointed to one of them and said, for all the children to fe> hear, "See how fe> dark she is, how will we ever get her married..." A young Bengali woman in Germany informed me that in the Bengali language there are four words (which I do not recall now; can any Bengalis help?) for shades of skin colouring. She belonged to the darkest category, and so her fair parents in Calcutta decided not to save money for a dowry but to send her to college instead, since she would have to support herself later on in life. (She later married a German and showed off her pale-faced husband to her Calcutta friends who were supposedly so fair and beautiful!) - Robert Zydenbos From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Sat May 10 10:21:08 1997 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 06:21:08 -0400 Subject: The vowel .r/ri in Sanskrit and Hindi Message-ID: <161227030142.23782.4314696711776058286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I suppose the vowel .r in Sanskrit must have started to cause difficulties >in pronunciation as soon as in the mothertongues of the speakers this >sound did cease to exist. Already in Pali this sound was not there and >various vowels had taken place of it, as is well known. Well and the sound >of a syllable forming r in between consonants is indeed difficult to >pronounce - in my mothertongue, where this sound occurs quite frequently, >small children and people with speech defects tend to pronounce a "mixed >vowel" at its place. Now, knowing that a sort of r-sound must be heard >there in Sanskrit (and not just a/i/u) the MIA speakers in attempt to >pronounce it had to combine it with a vowel. > So the "ri"/"ru"/"ra" pronunciation must have gained currency pretty >early. After all, in some Asokan inscription I recall to have seen the >word for v.rk.sa written so, that it might well be read as vraccha (and >not only vaccha), I think some editors also did read it so. In that case >we would have evidence for [r+vowel] from 3rd BC in Prakrit. And ofcourse, >speakers tend to pronounce a later learned language as they do their >mothertongue. (Few people bother not to pronounce their Sanskrit as their >Bengali, Malayalam, Hindi nowadays...) > For [ri] in particular I can't recall some evidence right now. >Only in Jayadeva's Gitagovinda, which is too late (there a .r si clearly >rhymed with ri) > >The pronunciation ri appears earlier also, as pointed out by Wackernagel >(Ai.Gr. 31 [par. 28], Nachtraege p. 19). The Pratijnasutra recognizes re >for the Suklayajurveda, which goes along with the fact that in this >tradition the svarabhakti in words like zIrSa is e (zIrekha) and not a. >The a-coloring is also known early, with evidence from the Rkpratisakhya, >where vocalic R is classed as jihvAmUlIya (RPr. 1.41) and the sound list >for which has R after a, not after u. Originally, though, R must have >begun with a vowel, as evidenced not only by Avestan but also by the fact >that the Rgveda has sequences like pUrvebhir RSibhir; if R began with r-, >one would have deletion of preceding r with lengthening of the vowel >preceding this original r. Other factors also point to a variety of vowel >colors in early R, comparable to the variety in modern pronunciations. >Regards, George CArdona From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Sat May 10 17:16:21 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 10:16:21 -0700 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227030157.23782.4411924155835832301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: May 10, 1997 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, The several threads regarding skin and hair color have been interesting. HAIR: Hair length and color are significant in several genres of folklore. There is, for example, a fairly wide- spread motif (found in at least Kannada and Tulu, associated with several tale-types) of a person finding a hair dislodged from the head someone who is bathing: the hair is often described as GOLDEN (bangara), meaning what, exactly, is up for conjecture. The tale in which this motif is found, has it that a sister is bathing upstream and downstream her brother sees a shining golden hair floating in the stream and vows to marry the girl who hair it is. AK Ramanujan comments (1983. "Hanchi: a Kannada Cinderella" in Cinderella, A Casebook, Alan Dundes, ed.) "Blonde hair is unheard of in Dravidian South India and would be considered grotesque on a Kannada girl. So the hair in this well- known European motif is seen here as actually made of gold, exerting a magical influence on the onlookers..." Hair length and color are characteristic of several heroes in oral epics. In Kannada I know of one in which a similar theme to the one above applies to the hair of a male hero (Golla Iranna), a strand of whose 7-yard long hair floats away in a stream while he is bathing which then shimmers like gold and is eaten by a fish which then shimmers, too. Eventually a woman hears of the fish and finds the hair and seeing it falls in love with our hero. In the Tulu epic of Koti-Chennaya, the younger brother, fiercer than the older, is described as having reddish skin and hair. Various caste/community groups in Karnataka and Andhra are described by their skin color: Erra (red) Gollas, eg. The Chenchus are sometimes described as reddish (the root chen- 'beauty, attractive') seems to imply red. And, of course, the British are usually described as red (but I don't think with the association of attractive!) Shades of Indra. SKIN It seems clear that there are at least three or more kinds (not necessarily related or correlated) of color- related hierarchies operative in India: caste (jati) is only vaguely associated with skin-color (there are people of a wide range within any one caste; but still, a general expectation that the higher the caste, the lighter the skin). varna is related to an abstract color scheme, with white associated with Brahman, red with ksatriya, or yellow with vaisya, black with sudra; and various stereotypical behaviors correlated with this. An aesthetic dimension to personal skin color, with light being regarded as more attractive than dark (but there also being a feeling that a woman should be lighter than her mate). Are there more than these? Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Sat May 10 15:33:42 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 11:33:42 -0400 Subject: Saivism Message-ID: <161227030150.23782.1994897962145697250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Catalin Buiu wrote: <....> > 1. Is there any English or French translation of TantrAloka (TA) of > Abhinavagupta published? Do you know of any translation that is planned > to be published? <....> see, _The Tantraloka of Abhinavagupta with commentary by Rajanaka Jayaratha, ed. with notes by M. R. Shastri, 1918-1938. 12 vols. Allahabad: Indian Press. Reprinted with introduction and notes by R. C. Dwivedi and N. Rastogi, 1987. 8 vols. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. sushil mittal international institute of india studies st-hyacinthe, quebec From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat May 10 19:42:58 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 12:42:58 -0700 Subject: Dicing and fare Message-ID: <161227030163.23782.16469583021419703335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, Although it may not qualify as mythology, Yudhisthira's dice game in the Mahabharata might fit into your category. It determined, at least to some extent, the fate of the Pandavas. Dice, gods and fate are intertwined in Vedic and later texts. As for the fare, as far as I know bus fares are never determined by dice. It's either a fixed fare or you might get a free ride, depending on the driver. (Not this again!) At 02:00 PM 5/10/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Dear Netters! > >Does anyone know of instances from Indic (or other Indo-European mythology) >where the gods use dice to determine the fortune or fate of a man/men? > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > > > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat May 10 10:50:26 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 12:50:26 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030144.23782.5144672541415432679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: >A young Bengali woman in Germany informed me that in the Bengali language there >are four words (which I do not recall now; can any Bengalis help?) for shades >of skin colouring. She belonged to the darkest category, and so her fair >parents in Calcutta decided not to save money for a dowry but to send her to >college instead, since she would have to support herself later on in life. (She >later married a German and showed off her pale-faced husband to her Calcutta >friends who were supposedly so fair and beautiful!) This is quite a story! It reminds me of similar stories that happened here about a 100 years ago, when unmarriable middle-class women became teachers or took up some other "respectable" profession, since they had little chance of getting a husband. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From tatelman at total.net Sat May 10 18:00:44 1997 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 13:00:44 -0500 Subject: Tantraaloka Courses Message-ID: <161227030152.23782.4613788655885153457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Catalin Buiu's request for courses dealing with the Tantraaloka, it is correct that Alexis Sanderson at Oxford, who specializes in 'Saivatantra, has given some lectures on this text. I do not know if this is a regular offering. I don't know Alex's E-mail address, but his postal address is: All Souls College, Oxford OX1 4AL, U.K. Tel.: 44-1865-279396. Fax: 44-1865-279299. Hope this helps. Regards, Joel Tatelman. From tatelman at total.net Sat May 10 18:01:58 1997 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 13:01:58 -0500 Subject: Saivism Message-ID: <161227030154.23782.7450215638477580050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Subject: Saivism >Sent: 10/05/1997 9:58 am >Received: 10/05/1997 12:51 pm >From: Catalin Buiu, cata at lnx.cib.pub.ro >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >To: Members of the list, indology at liverpool.ac.uk > >Dear All, > >I would very much appreciate your help at the following questions. > >1. Is there any English or French translation of TantrAloka (TA) of >Abhinavagupta published? Do you know of any translation that is planned >to be published? > >2. Is anyone of you aware of courses on TA topics? I have heard on some >courses given in England (Oxford) and Belgium, but I do not have any >other details. > > >Thank you very much for your attention to my request for help. > >Sincerely, > > >Catalin BUIU > > >Bucharest, Romania > > From tatelman at total.net Sat May 10 18:02:02 1997 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 13:02:02 -0500 Subject: Saivism Message-ID: <161227030155.23782.14332140842183790192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Subject: Re: Saivism >Sent: 10/05/1997 10:39 am >Received: 10/05/1997 12:51 pm >From: Mittal Sushil, mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >To: Members of the list, indology at liverpool.ac.uk > > > >On Sat, 10 May 1997, Catalin Buiu wrote: > ><....> > >> 1. Is there any English or French translation of TantrAloka (TA) of >> Abhinavagupta published? Do you know of any translation that is planned >> to be published? > ><....> > > >see, _The Tantraloka of Abhinavagupta with commentary by Rajanaka >Jayaratha, ed. with notes by M. R. Shastri, 1918-1938. 12 vols. Allahabad: >Indian Press. Reprinted with introduction and notes by R. C. Dwivedi and >N. Rastogi, 1987. 8 vols. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. > > > >sushil mittal >international institute of india studies >st-hyacinthe, quebec > > > From jakub at unipune.ernet.in Sat May 10 18:19:41 1997 From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 13:19:41 -0500 Subject: The vowel .r/ri in Sanskrit and Hindi Message-ID: <161227030140.23782.4222816234017188960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suppose the vowel .r in Sanskrit must have started to cause difficulties in pronunciation as soon as in the mothertongues of the speakers this sound did cease to exist. Already in Pali this sound was not there and various vowels had taken place of it, as is well known. Well and the sound of a syllable forming r in between consonants is indeed difficult to pronounce - in my mothertongue, where this sound occurs quite frequently, small children and people with speech defects tend to pronounce a "mixed vowel" at its place. Now, knowing that a sort of r-sound must be heard there in Sanskrit (and not just a/i/u) the MIA speakers in attempt to pronounce it had to combine it with a vowel. So the "ri"/"ru"/"ra" pronunciation must have gained currency pretty early. After all, in some Asokan inscription I recall to have seen the word for v.rk.sa written so, that it might well be read as vraccha (and not only vaccha), I think some editors also did read it so. In that case we would have evidence for [r+vowel] from 3rd BC in Prakrit. And ofcourse, speakers tend to pronounce a later learned language as they do their mothertongue. (Few people bother not to pronounce their Sanskrit as their Bengali, Malayalam, Hindi nowadays...) For [ri] in particular I can't recall some evidence right now. Only in Jayadeva's Gitagovinda, which is too late (there a .r si clearly rhymed with ri) Jakub Cejka ______________________________________________________________________________ Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune Ganeshkhind, Pune, India 411 007 e-mail: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (valid till June 97 approx.) From bpj at netg.se Sat May 10 12:01:48 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 14:01:48 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030146.23782.1333215685834873458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:58 10.5.1997 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Robert Zydenbos wrote: > >>A young Bengali woman in Germany informed me that in the Bengali language >>there >>are four words (which I do not recall now; can any Bengalis help?) for shades >>of skin colouring. She belonged to the darkest category, and so her fair >>parents in Calcutta decided not to save money for a dowry but to send her to >>college instead, since she would have to support herself later on in life. >>(She >>later married a German and showed off her pale-faced husband to her Calcutta >>friends who were supposedly so fair and beautiful!) > >This is quite a story! It reminds me of similar stories that happened here >about a 100 years ago, when unmarriable middle-class women became teachers >or took up some other "respectable" profession, since they had little chance >of getting a husband. Maybe not quite on topic, but interesting in context: the same was of course true of Sweden; here the teatching ladies were even forbidden in law to marry, losing their job if they did. Was this so also in other countries? Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* From tatelman at total.net Sat May 10 19:15:24 1997 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 14:15:24 -0500 Subject: Ny Recent Postings Message-ID: <161227030160.23782.7043987664748976844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My apologies to members of the list for inadvertently forwarding messages which were originally posted by others. I've been trying to get my E-mail programme to quote postings to which I wish to reply. Clearly, I changed some settings that I shouldn't have. Sorry for any confusion. Regards, Joel. From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat May 10 12:47:55 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 14:47:55 +0200 Subject: Dicing and fare Message-ID: <161227030147.23782.5671854168100929057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Netters! Does anyone know of instances from Indic (or other Indo-European mythology) where the gods use dice to determine the fortune or fate of a man/men? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From cata at lnx.cib.pub.ro Sat May 10 14:47:34 1997 From: cata at lnx.cib.pub.ro (Catalin Buiu) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 17:47:34 +0300 Subject: Saivism Message-ID: <161227030149.23782.8576315684800314566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, I would very much appreciate your help at the following questions. 1. Is there any English or French translation of TantrAloka (TA) of Abhinavagupta published? Do you know of any translation that is planned to be published? 2. Is anyone of you aware of courses on TA topics? I have heard on some courses given in England (Oxford) and Belgium, but I do not have any other details. Thank you very much for your attention to my request for help. Sincerely, Catalin BUIU Bucharest, Romania From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Sat May 10 16:07:16 1997 From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 18:07:16 +0200 Subject: Saivism Message-ID: <161227030165.23782.11237139187462093332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Mittal Sushil wrote: > On Sat, 10 May 1997, Catalin Buiu wrote: > > 1. Is there any English or French translation of TantrAloka (TA) of > > Abhinavagupta published? Do you know of any translation that is planned > > to be published? > see, _The Tantraloka of Abhinavagupta with commentary by Rajanaka > Jayaratha, ed. with notes by M. R. Shastri, 1918-1938. 12 vols. Allahabad: > Indian Press. Reprinted with introduction and notes by R. C. Dwivedi and > N. Rastogi, 1987. 8 vols. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. Well, this is not a translation, though (the introduction provides with a survey of the contents). The only complete translation I know of is the Italian by Raniero Gnoli: La luce delle scritture. Gnoli rendered also the smaller Tantrasara into Italian. \bye -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Sat May 10 19:56:26 1997 From: w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Wolfgang Behr) Date: Sat, 10 May 97 20:56:26 +0100 Subject: Nihali (2nd trial) Message-ID: <161227030161.23782.18049532164293611440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The genetic affiliation of Nihali continues to be disputed, indeed. It has been variously classified as an isolate, a divergent branch of Munda, a non-Munda Austroasiatic language, as related to Afroasiatic and/or Nostratic etc. The now "classical" source on the problem is: FBJ Kuiper (1962), "Nahali: A Comparative Study", _Mededelingen der Koninlijke Nederlandse Akademie v. Wetenschapen_, Afd. Letterk., 25 (5): 239-352 Cf. also FBJ Kuiper (1966), "The sources of the Nahali vocabulary", in: NH Zide ed., _Studies in Com- parative Austroasiatic Linguistics_, The Hague [:Mouton & Co.], 57-81 The last issue of _Mother Tongue_ (2, 1996) contains a long paper on the Nihali language and its proposed relatives by Asha Mundlay, with comments & discussion by P.K. Benedict, J.D. Bengtson, V. Blazhek, A.B. Dolgopolsky, H.C. Fleming, A. Vovin & N.H. Zide. Best wishes, Wolfgang Behr At 18:21 08.05.1997 BST, Paul Kiparsky wrote: >According to the SIL database, this language has no known genetic >affiliation. I had thought all the languages of India were readily >classifiable as either Indo-Iranian, Dravidian, Tibeto-Burman, or >Munda. Does anyone have more information about Nihali? > >NIHALI: 5,000 (1987). Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Buldana, Akola, >East Nimar, Amravati districts; mainly around Temi (Tembi) village in >Nimar District, Jalgaon Subdistrict; 12 hamlets around >Toranmal. Language Isolate. > >Paul Kiparsky ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wolfgang Behr Sinologie, J.W. Goethe-Universitaet, Dantestr.4-6, P.O.B. 111 932, D-60054 Frankfurt/Main, Germany Tel.: (o) +49-69-798-22852, Fax: +49-69-798-22873 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Sun May 11 14:33:14 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Sun, 11 May 97 08:33:14 -0600 Subject: Tiruvarur Tyagaraja Temple Message-ID: <161227030169.23782.1396647566838029885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr Soneji asked for the details: Rajeshwari Ghose, The Tyagaraja cult in Tiruvarur: a study in conflict and accomodation. Delhi: M. Banarsidass, 1996, 414 p. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Sun May 11 14:38:10 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Sun, 11 May 97 08:38:10 -0600 Subject: Dice and Fate Message-ID: <161227030171.23782.774133119735103956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dice and Fate ************** Prof. David Shulman, has many papers on this subject in recent years. From Sanskrit, Tamil and Telugu literatures. I am amazed at his linguistic skills. In Tamil, Telugu, Sanskrit etc., Let us wait for: Don Handelman and D. Shulman, God inside-out: Siva's game of dice. Oxford UP, 1997. N. Ganesan From rasa at gpnet.it Sun May 11 09:43:10 1997 From: rasa at gpnet.it (Rinaldo RASA) Date: Sun, 11 May 97 11:43:10 +0200 Subject: translation Message-ID: <161227030167.23782.11271184349266931544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >hello, >can, please, somebody translate this sentence: > >PRABHUPADA DESH > >i'm grateful in advance, >please gimme a reply at >my own address > >rasa at gpnet.it > >rinaldo rasa >venice,italy > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sun May 11 15:08:10 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 11 May 97 17:08:10 +0200 Subject: Dice and Fate Message-ID: <161227030172.23782.7822980301003208611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganeshan wrote: > > Dice and Fate > ************** > >Prof. David Shulman, has many papers on this subject in recent >years. From Sanskrit, Tamil and Telugu literatures. >I am amazed at his linguistic skills. In Tamil, Telugu, Sanskrit etc., > >Let us wait for: >Don Handelman and D. Shulman, >God inside-out: Siva's game of dice. >Oxford UP, 1997. Thanks for the information! Would anybody out there happen to know where the papers have been published? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From nm004f at uhura.cc.rochester.edu Mon May 12 00:23:14 1997 From: nm004f at uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Nithin Mettu) Date: Sun, 11 May 97 20:23:14 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: evolution of telugu (fwd)] Message-ID: <161227030174.23782.16035750032766634604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> food for thought -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 14652 URL: From beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Mon May 12 12:37:46 1997 From: beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 08:37:46 -0400 Subject: Dicing and fare Message-ID: <161227030178.23782.13576704732175960383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mbh 1.189 From athr at loc.gov Mon May 12 14:15:13 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 10:15:13 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030181.23782.18315588307216716251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 May 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > There is a similar problem with Greek colours. The only way to know, is when > colour terms are referred to natural phenomena that haven't changed since > ancient times. E.g. white may be referred to the egg of a hen, red to a > given kind of red berries, brown to soil etc. Brown referring to soil is a much less felicitous example than the other two. Soils can also be (in American English) black, yellow, etc. In much of my state of Virginia it is a beautiful red. And in countries which have undergone intensive agriculture for many centuries one can't assume the soil's color is the same as it was in the time of some classic literature. Allen Thrasher From athr at loc.gov Mon May 12 14:30:36 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 10:30:36 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030183.23782.6440100625005233563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: > At 11:58 10.5.1997 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > >>A young Bengali woman in Germany informed me that in the Bengali language > >>there > >>are four words (which I do not recall now; can any Bengalis help?) for shades > >>of skin colouring. She belonged to the darkest category, and so her fair > >>parents in Calcutta decided not to save money for a dowry but to send her to > >>college instead, since she would have to support herself later on in life. > >>(She > >>later married a German and showed off her pale-faced husband to her Calcutta > >>friends who were supposedly so fair and beautiful!) > > > >This is quite a story! It reminds me of similar stories that happened here > >about a 100 years ago, when unmarriable middle-class women became teachers > >or took up some other "respectable" profession, since they had little chance > >of getting a husband. > > Maybe not quite on topic, but interesting in context: the same was of > course true of Sweden; here the teatching ladies were even forbidden in law > to marry, losing their job if they did. Was this so also in other > countries? > > Philip > > > ************************************************* > * B.Philip Jonsson * I think this was true in many U.S. public (state) schools until fairly recently. If it was ever the law or custom in Virginia it had ceased before I (born 1946) started elementary school. On the other hand a lot of the older teachers were maiden ladies. They would have been born between about 1910 and 1920. In my parents' generation (born around 1920) practically everyone married, which was not true for either sex prior to World War II. I wonder what the reason for the prohibition was. Was it that it was thought women shouldn't be going out in public if they were pregnant, and schoolteaching would be considered public exposure? (I have heard that in some European countries until very recently or even now expecting women stayed or stay at home.) Was it that the teaching positions were considered a way of supporting unmarried women, so that it would be unfair to others for a woman to keep one once she was supported by a husband? In the Great Depression some governments and private firms in the U.S. refused to hire a woman who had an employed husband, father, or brother, but this was an emergency measure and not as far as I know the norm before or after. (On the other hand anti-nepotism laws, whether designed for sharing out the jobs or to prevent corruption, kept a lot of American academic women from pursuing their careers once they were married until they were dismantled in the 60s or 70s.) Another example of regarding schoolteaching jobs as a sort of planned social welfare: at one point African-Americans in one of the Northern states asked for a resegrated school system to provide jobs for college educated black young women. Allen W. Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch Mon May 12 08:45:15 1997 From: Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch (Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 10:45:15 +0200 Subject: Saivism Message-ID: <161227030176.23782.17868625038445944002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. Is there any English or French translation of TantrAloka (TA) of >Abhinavagupta published? Do you know of any translation that is planned >to be published? > >2. Is anyone of you aware of courses on TA topics? I have heard on some >courses given in England (Oxford) and Belgium, but I do not have any >other details. Dear Catalin BUIU Well, this is not a translation, though (the introduction provides with a survey of the contents). The only complete translation I know of is the Italian by Raniero Gnoli: La luce delle scritture. Gnoli rendered also the smaller Tantrasara into Italian. Well, this is not a translation, though (the introduction provides with a survey of the contents). The only complete translation I know of is the Italian by Raniero Gnoli: La luce delle scritture. Gnoli rendered also the smaller Tantrasara into Italian. \bye -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de There is also a french translation of Tantrasara by Liliane Silburn in Hermes (nouvelle s?rie) No.1, Paris,1981. There is also a fine scholar on Abhinavagupta in Paris who has done a lot of research in the matter and published too. I do not think she has e-mail. But perhaps you can contact her by snail-mail: Colette Poggi, 48, rue Dutot, F-75015 Paris T?l: 0033/1 42 73 33 90 There is an English translation of Abhinavagupta's Isvarapratybhijnavimarsini. Colette Poggi has made a French translation of it. Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From athr at loc.gov Mon May 12 14:52:41 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 10:52:41 -0400 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030184.23782.1747140955449534234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forwarded Lars's comments about "municipality-colored hair" to a Polish-American friend (a lot of Poles have a light version of what I call "dirty blonde" and probably is about the same as "m.-colored"), and he forwarded it to a Mangalorean Catholic friend of his, who sent back these comments, which she has permitted me to post without her name: Allen I think they've got it wrong. There is a marked distinction between fair hair and fair skin. While the latter is prized and sought after (especially in a bride), the former is of no importance. The distinctions between light and dark brown or reddish brown are immaterial in an Indian and not noticeable in a "white." But the lighter the hair (especially in an Indian or even an Asian) is an albatross round their neck (no pun intended) -- it signifies lack of racial purity! On the other hand if a "white" has fair hair (to match the fair skin) that is perfectly okay -- he is racially pure "white." Keep in mind that the racial mixtures you see in the U.S. and in the Caribbean are absolutely unknown in India and mind boggling to an Indian. Marrying within the same religion, culture, language, region, and social status, but outside the caste is considered "inter-marriage." Purists would notice the mix of facial features in the offspring of such a marriage and would brand the kids "mixed-breed." Go figure! ---------- >>for the relevant colour + keshin (or something to that effect. A more >>interesting question is if Indians differentiate between hair colour >>variations in Europeans. Are we all "fair", or do Indians see the difference >>of various shades of brown, yellow, red etc.? >It seems the obsession with skin and hair shades is only Western That in itself is of course an interesting observation. Although I would deny that the obsession with skin colour is only western. According to what African acquaintances have told me, they take an interest in various shades of black and brown. And as for India - well, read Midnight's Children and see what Rushdie has to say on the subject. But hair colour? I think that may very well be a Western obsession. Here in Norway, we bewail our fate if we are so unlucky as to have "municipality-coloured hair" (a particularly lack-lustre shade of light brown), whereas golden, blonde hair, or deep brown or jet black are hair colours you can show off to the world. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Grey-haired. From rbunker at franklin.lisco.com Mon May 12 15:45:14 1997 From: rbunker at franklin.lisco.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 11:45:14 -0400 Subject: Name of laghu/guru patterns Message-ID: <161227030188.23782.4803657421050838602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have an incomplete list of the names of patterns of laghu/guru syllables in a pada. For example, gajagati (gait of an elephant) is the name given to the pattern GGGLGGGL (where G is Guru and L Laghu) and pramANikA (measure) is the name given to the pattern GLGLGLGL Can somebody tell me where I can find a complete list of such pattern names? English commentary would be helpful. TIA --ralph From mulleror at pilot.msu.edu Mon May 12 12:45:40 1997 From: mulleror at pilot.msu.edu (Paul Muller) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 12:45:40 +0000 Subject: Tantraloka Message-ID: <161227030179.23782.14579835796716513357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Catalin Buiu wrote: >>> 1. Is there any English or French translation of TantrAloka (TA) of >>> Abhinavagupta published? Do you know of any translation that is planned >>> to be published? >>see, _The Tantraloka of Abhinavagupta with commentary by Rajanaka >>Jayaratha, ed. with notes by M. R. Shastri, 1918-1938. 12 vols. Allahabad: >>Indian Press. Reprinted with introduction and notes by R. C. Dwivedi and >>N. Rastogi, 1987. 8 vols. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. Unless I am very much mistaken, the above-referenced volumes are the Sanskrit edition of the text, not a translation. I am aware that a translation of the first five ahnikas of the TA into French will soon be published as prepared by Lilian Silburn and Andre Padoux. I know of no translation of the text either partial or complete that has been published in English (apart from short sections here and there). There is, of course, the translation into Italian prepared some years ago by Raniero Gnoli, Luce Delle Sacre Scriture di Abhinavagupta (Unione Tipografico-Editrice Torinese, 1972). Hope this is helpful. Paul Muller-Ortega From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Mon May 12 20:01:28 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 14:01:28 -0600 Subject: Thoughts on Sanskritization Message-ID: <161227030189.23782.18072166780910079191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Thoughts on Sanskritization Dr. Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: + Shouldn't we be distinguishing between the script used for writing a + language from the language as a spoken entity? Does anyone *pronounce* + gan(g)gaikoNDacOzhan as kan(g)kaikoNTacOzhan? Surely, Tamil speakers + distinguish between k and g in speech, although not in writing. Similarly, + the sounds s and S frequently occur in speech, although the script allows + strictly only for c (e.g. sol/Sol as variants of col). Sure. all Tamil speakers in villages, knowing no other language, tell my name as "kaNEsan" and not as "gaNEsan". In Tamil, "ka+ng+kai" is pronounced as "kangai" So, it is "kangaikoNDacOzhan". "Ganga" is pronounced as "Gangai", only if the speaker knows that in Sanskrit or other Indic languages, it is so. Tamil grammar starting from TolkAppiyam allows for distinguishing between "k" and "g", (but kh and gh etc., sounds are alien to Tamil) "p" and "b", etc., in pronunciation. According to the rules, when the hard consonants occur once in the word, in positions other than as first letter, they are pronounced 'soft'. For the doubling 'hard' consonants, it is pronounced as written, (ie 'hard'). BUT hard consonants do not get pronouced soft when they are the first letters of the word. The rule is simple and always followed intuitively. Examples: Pronounced as *************** ka + ng +kai (Ganges) kangai taa + k + ka +m taakkam (impact) pa + nj + cu (cotton) panju e + c + ca +m eccam (remainder) vii + Tu (home) viiDu O + T + Tu OTTu (drive) vi+ tai (seed) vidai vi +t + tai vittai (vidyA) a + m + pu (arrow) ambu ka + m + pa + n kamban, a great poet a + p + pa + n appan, dad or a dear person and so on. "k" as a non-first letter of a word and for single occurence, has other sounds too, eg., pi + Ra + ku (piRaku = later) is pronounced as "piRahu". ++ c, T, t, p. Tamil resistance to include ++ these additional characters is because it would lead to excessive use ++ of Sanskrit words and native Tamil/Dravidian words will face extinction, Sundaresan wrote: +It is the Tamil +resistance to excessive use of Sanskrit that has helped it to maintain its +identity to date. Varying degrees of accommodation of and resistance to +words of Sanskrit origin are seen among all south Indian languages. I agree. Regards, N. Ganesan From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon May 12 19:53:02 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 15:53:02 -0400 Subject: Name of laghu/guru patterns Message-ID: <161227030191.23782.6290886163284554365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An easy source for a long listing of these metrical patterns is an appendix in Apte's Sanskrit Dictionary. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 12 May 1997, Ralph Bunker wrote: > I have an incomplete list of the names of patterns of laghu/guru syllables > in a pada. For example, > > gajagati (gait of an elephant) is the name given to the pattern GGGLGGGL > (where G is Guru and L Laghu) and > pramANikA (measure) is the name given to the pattern GLGLGLGL > > Can somebody tell me where I can find a complete list of such pattern names? > English commentary would be helpful. > > TIA > --ralph > > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon May 12 15:36:35 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 17:36:35 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030186.23782.4811064696515284774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen Thrasher wrote: >On Fri, 9 May 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >> >> There is a similar problem with Greek colours. The only way to know, is when >> colour terms are referred to natural phenomena that haven't changed since >> ancient times. E.g. white may be referred to the egg of a hen, red to a >> given kind of red berries, brown to soil etc. > >Brown referring to soil is a much less felicitous example than the other >two. Soils can also be (in American English) black, yellow, etc. In much >of my state of Virginia it is a beautiful red. And in countries which >have undergone intensive agriculture for many centuries one can't assume >the soil's color is the same as it was in the time of some classic >literature. Thanks for a useful and apt comment! I should have known better, having flown over Australia and admired the fascinating reddish colour of that continent. But apart from my soiled gaffe here, I think the principle works. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Tue May 13 03:08:56 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Mon, 12 May 97 20:08:56 -0700 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030193.23782.8100450351301156047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And chicken eggs are brown, not white... Well, sometimes white and sometimes various shades (ie. colors) betweeen white and brown. Peter Claus On Mon, 12 May 1997, Allen Thrasher wrote: > Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:03:02 BST > From: Allen Thrasher > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: hair's colour in sanskrit > > On Fri, 9 May 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > > There is a similar problem with Greek colours. The only way to know, is when > > colour terms are referred to natural phenomena that haven't changed since > > ancient times. E.g. white may be referred to the egg of a hen, red to a > > given kind of red berries, brown to soil etc. > > Brown referring to soil is a much less felicitous example than the other > two. Soils can also be (in American English) black, yellow, etc. In much > of my state of Virginia it is a beautiful red. And in countries which > have undergone intensive agriculture for many centuries one can't assume > the soil's color is the same as it was in the time of some classic > literature. > > > Allen Thrasher > > > From mrabe at artic.edu Tue May 13 13:04:01 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 08:04:01 -0500 Subject: Nag Panchami Message-ID: <161227030196.23782.7163935698483113034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An acquaintance of mine, not on the list, is planning a first visit to India this summer and would like advice on places she might observe celebrations of Nag Pachami, supposedly on August 8th this year. Any suggestions, including references to published sources on the subject will be much appreciated and duly forwarded. Thanks, Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University & School of the Art Institute of Chicago From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Tue May 13 16:58:48 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 12:58:48 -0400 Subject: CFP "Hindu" as the "other" of "South Asian Islam" Message-ID: <161227030199.23782.7329464777908641086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Announcement and Call for Papers The _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is planning a special issue for December 1998 on How Islam in its relation to South Asia has represented, over time, its distinct other, the 'Hindu' and, in turn, how these representations have shaped the sense of both Hindu and Islamic identity and interaction. Contributions submitted for this special issue will be evaluated through the usual _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ peer reviews. Manuscripts, including notes, should not exceed 40 pages in length. Please submit four copies. All submitted work should be double-spaced, including extracts, notes, and references. Footnotes should be as few as possible, and typed double-spaced at the end of the text. Documentation should follow the style recommended in sections 16.3 through 16.28 of the _Chicago Manual of Style_, 14 ed. Authors are encouraged to submit tables, figures, maps, photographs, and other illustrations along with their manuscripts; please consult the editor for specifications. Additional guidelines on manuscript preparation will be sent upon request. The deadline for submission is November 15, 1997. Completed manuscripts, inquiries about material for possible publication, and correspondence to the editor should be send to the Journal's editorial offices: Sushil Mittal, editor _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ International Institute of India Studies 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 FAX (514) 771 2776 Email: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Full details on _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal homepage at: . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Upcoming Issues of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ An issue on "How the study of Hinduism might contribute in larger ways to the study of religion" with articles by Douglas Brooks, Alf Hiltebeitel, Barbara Holdredge, Gerald J. Larson, Anantanand Rambachan, and Brian K. Smith, and with an introduction by Wendy Doniger. A symposium on "Robert I. Levy's _Mesocosm: Hinduism and the organization of a traditional Hindu city in Nepal_" with articles by David Gellner, Michael H. Jameson, Steven Parish, Declan Quigley, and Michael Witzel, and with a reply by Robert I. Levy. An issue on "How 'Western' psychology has interpreted Hindus and Hinduism" entitled "Psychologizing Hindus". -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Tue May 13 14:27:40 1997 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 14:27:40 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Euthenesia Message-ID: <161227030216.23782.17356531420861567178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re the query, >A friend of mine has recently asked me what the position of >Hinduism is in relation to Euthenesia. See: Young, Katherine K. "Euthanasia: Traditional Hindu Views and the Contemporary Debate." Chapter 3 in _Hindu Ethics: Purity, Abortion, and Euthanasia_, ed. Harold G. Coward, Julius J. Lipner, and Katherin K. Young, 71-130. Albany, N.Y.: State University of New York Press, 1989. LN ---------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue May 13 12:37:29 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 14:37:29 +0200 Subject: Help! Message-ID: <161227030194.23782.7856302873776471416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear netters! I need page 247 from Aula Orientalis 7, 1989, which is not available here in Oslo. Is there a kind and benevolent soul out there in Cyberspace who would make a copy of the page and fax it to me? (Fax. no. +47 22 32 12 19). (His/her punya will increase dramatically!) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue May 13 22:06:01 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 15:06:01 -0700 Subject: Oriya Fonts Message-ID: <161227030208.23782.6483068753163014007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Lynn Foulston wrote: > Dear List Menbers, > Could anyone help me? > I am looking for an Oriya font that would be suitable for use in Word > documents. If anyone has any information I would be most grateful. I have not come across any public domain or shareware Oriya TrueType or Postscript Type 1 fonts, but I have heard that someone is developing an Oriya Metafont for use with TeX. I know that Monotype Typography Ltd. in England sells high-quality fonts with keyboard drivers for both Macs and PCs running Windows. They don't have an email address that I know of, but you may call them at # 44-0737-76-5959, or fax # 444-0737-76-9243, 0942. Their contact people for Indic fonts are Ian Bezer and Julie Collier-Smith. Ecological Linguistics may also have an Oriya font. They may be reached via email at , or by phone at (202) 547-7678. If you contact them and hear a positive response, could you please let me know? Thank you and good luck! Regards, Anshuman Pandey apandey at u.washington.edu From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Tue May 13 23:22:55 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 15:22:55 -0800 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030209.23782.9790080703070312178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:19:46 BST > Reply-to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu > To: Members of the list > Subject: RE: Color of Skin > > COLOR OF SKIN > ************** > > Prof. P. Claus wrote: > +varna is related to an abstract color scheme, with white > +associated with Brahman, red with Ksatriya, or yellow with > +Vaishya, black with Sudra; and various steriotypical behaviours > +correlated with this. > > Can anybody please give some references? I want to know how black color > of skin is associated with things mean from Indian writings. > I don't think there is a clear relationship between skin color and varna, although some later writers may have confused these issues. Is there really anything to confirm, for example, that Ksatriyas were supposed to be of red complexion while Vaisyas were yellow? The colors are more likely symbolic. Red stands for blood and the planet Mangala and is suited for warriors. Yellow is the color of gold and makes sense for merchants. Sudras work the dark earth, and brahmins wear white clothing(?). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue May 13 22:02:24 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 16:02:24 -0600 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030204.23782.13745038655350948319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> COLOR OF SKIN ************** Prof. P. Claus wrote: +varna is related to an abstract color scheme, with white +associated with Brahman, red with Ksatriya, or yellow with +Vaishya, black with Sudra; and various steriotypical behaviours +correlated with this. Can anybody please give some references? I want to know how black color of skin is associated with things mean from Indian writings. Interestingly, I heard from a student at Columbia university that why Blacks detested the word, "Nigger"? Nigger, it seems in Latin not only means black, but "evil". He informed me: the humanistic philosopher Nietzsche discusses this in his famous book, "Beyond Good and Evil". Any relevent passage from Nietzsche's writings will be appreciated. Any parallel thoughts from Sanskrit works? Manu? smricandrika? chaturvargachintAmaNi? Any subaltern research papers on how Shudras were denigrated in Indian elite writings? Thanks, N. Ganesan From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed May 14 00:59:21 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 17:59:21 -0700 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030218.23782.13256249747149127394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Noel Salmond wrote: > > Is it relevant that the good guys in the Mahaabhaarata war are the sons of > Paan.d.u and that Paan.d.u means white or pale in Sanskrit? No. The good guys and bad guys are all related to one another. > I mention this because I noticed that the popular guru in the States, Swami > Satchidananda writes (p. xxiii) of his : > > "...Dhritarashtra was blind, while his brother Pandu is said to be > white-skinned. This isn't a reference to his race. The word pandu means > white, which represents sattva, purity and tranquility. The five sons of Not really. With all due respect to the learned Swamiji, his interpretation is mistaken. Dhritarashtra and Pandu were both conceived according to the law of levirate, by Vyasa, on the widows of Vichitravirya. Ambika, the elder queen, was terrified by Vyasa's DARK complexion and matted hair, so she shut her eyes. Amabalika, the younger queen, turned pale with fright upon looking at Vyasa. Consequently, Ambika's son, Dhritarashtra was born blind, while Ambalika's son, Pandu, was born pale-white (albinic?). Far from being a complimentary or a positive attribute, Pandu's pale complexion is a result of his mother's negative reaction to Vyasa. If there is any character in the epic who represents sattva, purity and tranquility in that generation, it is Vidura, Vyasa's son by a servant maid. When Satyavati, the queen mother, hears from Vyasa that one son will be blind and the other pale, she asks Vyasa to father another son with one of her daughters-in-law. Note that she is not happy with the prospect of a pale-white skinned grandson. However, the two queens do not really wish to meet Vyasa again, and conspire to send their servant maid to Vyasa instead. This third son of Vyasa is Vidura, who is given the status of a brother to Pandu and Dhritarashtra, although because of his mother, he is considered to be of lowly birth. I am not aware if Vidura's complexion is particularly noted in the epic. (Comic books of the Amar Citra Katha variety show both Vidura and Yudhishthira as fair-skinned, although they are both aspects of Dharma/Yama, who is invariably dark-skinned, because he represents death. To give Amar Chitra Katha some credit, Duryodhana, his brothers, Sisupala and other sundry bad guys are also shown as fair-skinned as any of the good guys.) There is a lesson to be learned in this story somewhere, isn't there? Vyasa, the brAhmaNa, is *dark-skinned*, and Vidura, his son by a SUdra mother, is the virtuous son. In the Mahabharata, Dhritashtra's blindness and Pandu's paleness are both flaws, caused by the negative mental states of their mothers during conception. > Pandu are the products of tranquility and represent the virtuous human > qualities." Well, according to the epic, Pandu's sons are really sons of Kunti and Madri, their fathers being various gods (Yama, Vayu, Indra and the Asvins). Any human genetic/racial characteristics of the Pandavas came solely from their mothers! Pandu, although "white" had nothing to do with it. Also, Yudhishthira, the only Pandava really noted for tranquility and virtue, has a natural affinity for Vidura. Later in the epic, Draupadi and the four younger brothers all find fault with Yudhishthira for his pacific nature and conduct unbecoming of a kshatriya. > Does this contribute to, despite the good Swami's disclaimer about any > reference to race, the association of white with the preferred (however > unconsciously) in India? Maybe. Unfortunately, nobody seems to appreciate that the Mahabharata revels in complexity. It cannot be analyzed in simple black-and-white terms. To begin with, there is a remarkable amount of sleeping around, so much so that Arjuna's concern about varNa-sankara as a negative result of war comes very late in the day! There are legitimate children from all kinds of relationships - pre-marital, extra-marital, polygamous, polyandrous, you name it. Vyasa is a brAhmaNa, although his mother is a fisher-woman. However, Vidura, his son, is lower than both brAhmaNa and kshatriya, because his mother is a servant woman. Kunti's sons by the various gods, after her marriage to Pandu, are considered kshatriyas, but Karna, her pre-marital son from Surya, ends up being a low caste (although fair-skinned in comic book depictions). S. Vidyasankar From mishra.prasanna at mayo.edu Tue May 13 23:24:20 1997 From: mishra.prasanna at mayo.edu (Mishra, Prasanna K., Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 18:24:20 -0500 Subject: Oriya Fonts Message-ID: <161227030214.23782.2615332648669666059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may please try the following two sources. (1) arupat at sybase.com supplied FREE Oriya Fonts for MS WORD 6.0 sometime ago. (2) patelvk at metronet.com at a cost of $24.95 has started selling the Oriya font now. _ /\ _ _ ( |/| _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ( | ( || \ | ( | | ( | ( | ( ) ( ) ( || ( ) ( | ( | / || (_| - ()| | (_| / | /\ (|| / || ()\ / | ()| -- \/ -- | -- /\ \/ -- () -- () sADhu - shrI prasanna kumAr mishra ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Prasanna K. Mishra mishra at mayo.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From nsalmond at ccs.carleton.ca Tue May 13 22:51:02 1997 From: nsalmond at ccs.carleton.ca (Noel Salmond) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 18:51:02 -0400 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030211.23782.5770255821484933124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is it relevant that the good guys in the Mahaabhaarata war are the sons of Paan.d.u and that Paan.d.u means white or pale in Sanskrit? I mention this because I noticed that the popular guru in the States, Swami Satchidananda writes (p. xxiii) of his : "...Dhritarashtra was blind, while his brother Pandu is said to be white-skinned. This isn't a reference to his race. The word pandu means white, which represents sattva, purity and tranquility. The five sons of Pandu are the products of tranquility and represent the virtuous human qualities." Does this contribute to, despite the good Swami's disclaimer about any reference to race, the association of white with the preferred (however unconsciously) in India? Another question: P. Claus links the colour white with Brahmins and red with Ks.atriyas. I would also like to know the source for this. When we see red and white vertical stripes painted on the outer walls of Hindu temples in India what does this symbolize? I assumed the red represents the goddess, or are we looking at sattva and rajas? Would someone please educate me on the meaning of these stripes. Noel Salmond From L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Tue May 13 19:07:33 1997 From: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:07:33 +0000 Subject: UKABS conference programme Message-ID: <161227030201.23782.2458680100916848099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Second Annual Conference of the UK Association for Buddhist Studies Monday June 30th, 1997, Main Building Lecture Theatre School of Oriental and African Studies, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London. Programme: 10.30: Coffee 11.00: Professor Richard Salomon (Washington): 'The British Library Kharosthi Manuscripts and their Implications for the Hypothesis of a Gandhari Buddhist Canon'. (On the study of recently discovered Buddhist manuscripts (as reported in the press last summer)). 12.30 Lunch (not included in conference fee) 2.00 AGM 3.00 Professor Tim Barrett (SOAS) 'Did I-ching go to India?: Problems in using I-ching as a source for South Asian Buddhism' (On the extent to which this Chinese pilgrim's written account of his Indian trip can be used as historical evidence). 4.30 Coffee and depart Conference Registration: ?5 waged, ?2 unwaged, cheques payable to the UK Association for Buddhist Studies should be sent to: Dr Ian Harris, (UKABS Treasurer), Dept. of Religious Studies University College of St. Martin, Lancaster, LA1 3JD L.S. Cousins, MANCHESTER, UK NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From foulston at msn.com Tue May 13 20:22:15 1997 From: foulston at msn.com (Lynn Foulston) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 20:22:15 +0000 Subject: Oriya Fonts Message-ID: <161227030203.23782.14984666166174444273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Menbers, Could anyone help me? I am looking for an Oriya font that would be suitable for use in Word documents. If anyone has any information I would be most grateful. Thanks Lynn Foulston From bpj at netg.se Tue May 13 21:59:22 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 13 May 97 23:59:22 +0200 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030206.23782.9304393345283423121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:14 13.5.1997 +0100, GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > COLOR OF SKIN > ************** > >Prof. P. Claus wrote: >+varna is related to an abstract color scheme, with white >+associated with Brahman, red with Ksatriya, or yellow with >+Vaishya, black with Sudra; and various steriotypical behaviours >+correlated with this. > >Can anybody please give some references? I want to know how black color >of skin is associated with things mean from Indian writings. > >Interestingly, I heard from a student at Columbia university that >why Blacks detested the word, "Nigger"? Nigger, it seems in Latin > not only means black, but "evil". There is "dies ater" 'a dark day', though I can't remember any idiom where "niger" is 'evil', except "nigromantia" 'black magic', which is a misrendering of Greek "nekromanteia" 'magic performed on a funeral site, raising the dead (as a means of getting an oracle)'. Interestingly Latin has two words corresponding to 'black': "niger" glossed (by Cassell's) as 'shining black' and "ater" glossed as 'dull black'. I read somewhere the remark that the skin color of an "Aethiops" should be called "Niger", while the color of a hanged (presumably white-skinned in life!) person was "ater". I don't know if there is ancient authority for the latter. "Niger" was also used for black hair, and is hence found as the cognomen of at least one Roman family. It is an interesting fact that color words were not used as racial tags in Classical Latin. The word for 'black' person is invariably the Greek loan-word "Aethiops", or "Numidius". The word "Afer" "Africa" and "Africanus" referred to people and things pertaining to the Semitic Carthaginians -- and presumably was originally a self-description. There is no term for 'white person' -- probably because Greeks and romans didn't come into anything like regular contact with non-whites until comparatively late. >He informed me: the humanistic philosopher >Nietzsche discusses this in his famous book, "Beyond Good >and Evil". Any relevent passage from Nietzsche's writings will be appreciated. > >Any parallel thoughts from Sanskrit works? Manu? smricandrika? >chaturvargachintAmaNi? Any subaltern research papers on how Shudras >were denigrated in Indian elite writings? How appropriate a word in the context: "denigrated"! B. Philip Jonsson ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* From inumata at hucc.hokudai.ac.jp Tue May 13 16:20:21 1997 From: inumata at hucc.hokudai.ac.jp (=?utf-8?B?wo/DgMKTY8KIw6rCmFk=?=) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 01:20:21 +0900 Subject: paaraajika Message-ID: <161227030197.23782.8116418600375207805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Akira Hirakawa introduces the etymology of Paaraajika(Skt. Paali) in his book. 1) Paaraajika comes from *paaraJcika(AMg. paaraJciya)--Levi. 2) Paaraajika comes form paraajita--Buddhaghosa,Muulasarvaastivaadavinaya,Mvy. and PW. etc. And Dr.Hirakawa himself says its etimology is not clear. Does anybody know new views of its etymology? Ichiro NUMATA(inumata at hucc.hokudai.ac.jp) From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed May 14 08:49:59 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 01:49:59 -0700 Subject: Query: Yoyombo script. Message-ID: <161227030225.23782.6084630430869685546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been trying to find books about the Yoyombo script, which is traditionally used to write Mongolian, but have had no luck doing so. Would anyone happen to know of any books on the Yoyombo script, and where they may be located? I'm interested in learning the background of the script and the conventions used in writing it. Any help on this matter is greatly appreciated! Thanks. Regards, Anshuman Pandey apandey at u.washington.edu From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed May 14 09:33:28 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 02:33:28 -0700 Subject: Query: Pseudo-Nagari/Roman script. Message-ID: <161227030229.23782.9290705721875591564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here's another orthography-related question that I've been meaning to ask, but keep forgetting. I've seen a certain typeface which is the Roman script written in such a manner as to resemble Devanagari. Would anyone happen to know the name of this typeface/style? Thanks. Regards, Anshuman Pandey apandey at u.washington.edu From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed May 14 10:27:02 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 03:27:02 -0700 Subject: Correction -- Re: Query: Soyombo script. Message-ID: <161227030230.23782.6319769668172018558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a previous message (given below) I incorrected stated the name of the script as Yoyombo. The correct name is in fact Soyombo. Please excuse my mistake. Regards, Anshuman Pandey > I've been trying to find books about the Yoyombo script, which is > traditionally used to write Mongolian, but have had no luck doing so. > Would anyone happen to know of any books on the Yoyombo script, and where > they may be located? I'm interested in learning the background of the > script and the conventions used in writing it. > > Any help on this matter is greatly appreciated! > > Thanks. From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Wed May 14 01:10:05 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 06:40:05 +0530 Subject: Oriya Fonts Message-ID: <161227030220.23782.4137014291416296207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, You may like to checkout and use the fonts usable directly in MS Word, in the CD-ROM containing 1500+ fonts for all South asian language scripts, including Oriya, brought out by the NewYork publisher, Scanrom. email: 73760.1005 at compuserve.com I think Oriya has three typefaces in this corpus. Best wishes. k. At 09:13 PM 5/13/97 BST, you wrote: >Dear List Menbers, >Could anyone help me? >I am looking for an Oriya font that would be suitable for use in Word >documents. If anyone has any information I would be most grateful. > >Thanks >Lynn Foulston > > > From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Wed May 14 15:08:27 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 08:08:27 -0700 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030242.23782.13774353733194120802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan. Hello! I'm sure you're familiar with the many texts that utilize this varna scheme. But I do not know whether they use it in relation to skin color. That is an extrapolation, albeit I think a fairly common one. I suspect it occurs primarily in conversational tradition, rather than textual tradition. However, I, too, would be interested in any textual references to this abstract color correspondance schem and skin color of individuals or groups. Help, please. On Tue, 13 May 1997 GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:18:46 BST > From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: RE: Color of Skin > > > COLOR OF SKIN > ************** > > Prof. P. Claus wrote: > +varna is related to an abstract color scheme, with white > +associated with Brahman, red with Ksatriya, or yellow with > +Vaishya, black with Sudra; and various steriotypical behaviours > +correlated with this. > > Can anybody please give some references? I want to know how black color > of skin is associated with things mean from Indian writings. > > Interestingly, I heard from a student at Columbia university that > why Blacks detested the word, "Nigger"? Nigger, it seems in Latin > not only means black, but "evil". He informed me: the humanistic philosopher > Nietzsche discusses this in his famous book, "Beyond Good > and Evil". Any relevent passage from Nietzsche's writings will be appreciated. > > Any parallel thoughts from Sanskrit works? Manu? smricandrika? > chaturvargachintAmaNi? Any subaltern research papers on how Shudras > were denigrated in Indian elite writings? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > > > From Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Wed May 14 09:02:37 1997 From: Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 09:02:37 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Euthenesia Message-ID: <161227030212.23782.10614511109365635749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues A friend of mine has recently asked me what the position of Hinduism is in relation to Euthenesia. I do not know of any sources within Hinduism that have embraced this topic. Can someone help? Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed May 14 14:05:19 1997 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 09:05:19 -0500 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030238.23782.11628125257185905588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The problem of color in ancient India is not as straightforward (pardon the pun) as black and white. Black has clear 'bad' connotations, but it also has positive characteristics. BLACK AS BAD: Jaiminiya Brahmana 1.42-44: naked black man gurading the river of blood in the tale of Bhrgu; he is Anger personified. Again black man with yellow eyes (may be Yama personified) in Satapatha Brahmana 1.6.1.1-13. Black as death in Taittiriya Samhita 5.7.5.1; also Aitareya Aranyaka 3.2.4; Sankhayana Aranyaka 11.4 Black bird as evil omen in Atharva Veda 7.64 (also 18.3.55; 19.57.4). Black and greedy--associated with dirty beasts such as dog, jackal, vulture: Atharvaveda 11.2.2. When Trisanku becomes an outcast his skin is black and coarse, has black garments: Ramayana 1.57.9. Ravana, of course, is dark, and his color is contrasted with that of Sita (white), she is like the star in a sphhire!! Ramayana 3.50.21-23. In the Bharadvaja Pitrmedha Sutra (1.2.12) a black bullock pulls the cart carrying a corpse; while at 1.4.3 a black cow is offered, a cow that is old, dull, utterly bad, black-eyed, black--tailed, black-hoofed. BLACK AS GOOD: if Ravana is dark, so is Rama: he is as dark as a blue lotus (Ram 2.2.33; 2.77.8; 2.82.17); and so is Barata (Ram 2.104.15). And, of course, there is Krishna. Kalidasa also compares Dilipa and his wife to a rain cloud with a streak of lightning (Raghuvamsa 1.36); an image similar to that of the star saffire used re. Ravana's capture of Sita in the Ramayana. Black is also associated with Varuna (and thus with water--Taittiriya Samhita 5.6.11-12; Satapatha Brahmana 5.2.5.17). Black is the sign of Parjanya and rain: Satapatha Br. 3.3.4.11; Taittiriya Sam. 2.1.8.5; 2.4.9.1. Black/dark is also a desirable quality when applied to eyes or hair (so Sita is dark-eyed: Ramayana 2.4.2). White hair is a sign of old age and hence bad. And finally at Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 6.4.14-16 we have rites to obtain fair, ruddy, and dark sons (at least some people must have wanted a dark son)--and, again breaking the stereotype we are used to, it gives rites to obtain daughters!! Patrick Olivelle *********************************** Patrick Olivelle Director, Center for Asian Studies Chair, Department of Asian Studies WCH 4.134 (Mail Code G9300) University of Texas Austin, TX 78712-1194 USA *********************************** UT Asian Studies website: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/index.html From athr at loc.gov Wed May 14 14:24:17 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 10:24:17 -0400 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030240.23782.12528458484474778562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > Maybe. Unfortunately, nobody seems to appreciate that the Mahabharata > revels in complexity. It cannot be analyzed in simple black-and-white > terms. To begin with, there is a remarkable amount of sleeping around, so > much so that Arjuna's concern about varNa-sankara as a negative result of > war comes very late in the day! There are legitimate children from all > kinds of relationships - pre-marital, extra-marital, polygamous, > polyandrous, you name it. Vyasa is a brAhmaNa, although his mother > is a fisher-woman. However, Vidura, his son, is lower than both brAhmaNa > and kshatriya, because his mother is a servant woman. Kunti's sons by the > various gods, after her marriage to Pandu, are considered kshatriyas, but > Karna, her pre-marital son from Surya, ends up being a low caste (although > fair-skinned in comic book depictions). > > S. Vidyasankar > Postively Proustian. Should we subtitle the epic "`a la recherche du yuga perdu"? From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed May 14 17:35:14 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 10:35:14 -0700 Subject: Bhasyas in electronic form Message-ID: <161227030246.23782.15443890634406040371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 14 May 1997, David Dargie wrote: > Dear list-members, > > After many hours of searching databases, I have come to the conclusion that > no bhasya (eg. Sankara's Brahma Sutra Bhasya) material is available in > electronic form. Can anyone confirm or deny that? > The aNubhAshya on the brahmasUtras by AnandatIrtha (madhva) is available as a .gif file and in transliterated (ITRANS) format at the Sanskrit Documents List available at . If you do not have a web-browser, you can also connect via ftp. Login anonymously and follow the directory structure as indicated above. Other than this text, I am not aware of any other bhAshyas in electronic form. S. Vidyasankar From thillaud at unice.fr Wed May 14 09:05:10 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 11:05:10 +0200 Subject: black hair Message-ID: <161227030232.23782.10244433479263171241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I'm back and I apologize again :-) for my 'mouvement d'humeur'. After my leaving, I received many and various private mails and I thank all sincerely (including injurious ones). I find perhaps in this mailing an answer to some communication problems and I would like to have your point of vew about it. It seems to me that the main westerner criterium is 'free/constrained' and we find varna's system and women's slavery and murdering unacceptable. Reversely, the main indian criterium would be 'pure/soiled' and they find unacceptable the westernian comportment about money, sex, alcohol, &c. Do you have the same advice ? About hair's colour, I was not asking *today*'s names for this meaning and I know the fair/black criterium (I was good friend one year long with a noble indonesian (kshatriya) and he hated the sun of the beach, too dangerous for his honourable pale skin). My problem was in *epic*, especially the MBh, some twenty centuries ago: - in MBh II,60,24, draupadI is said atikRSNakezI, this 'ati' suppose that's not the same for all peoples. - a friend said me (alas without references) duryodhana was red-haired. - Pr. Jayabarathi gave here some examples of golden, red or yellow hairs in ancient indian corpus. - in many other eurindian epics the hair's colour is highly significant (but not the colour of the skin). For example, in Greece, Menelaus is 'xanthos' (blond-haired) and one of the names of Akhilleus is 'Pyrrha' (the Red); an Argonaut, son of Poseidon, is young but white-haired. (other examples in germanic epics). - in RV I, 79, 1 (to Agni), the Snake is gold-haired: hi'raNyakezo ra'jaso visAre' ahir dhu'nir vA'ta iva dhra'jImAn / I believe: - eurindian are the author(s) of the MBh - I and some ancient sanskrit-speakers have the same pitaras. - because most of ancient indian peoples were black-haired and black was a 3th or 4th function (vaizia or zUdra) eurindian colour, they have legitimately forget this hair's distinction. (I believe the varna/guna/colour association is in the sAMkhya). I hope: - there are some old remainds of the distinction in indian epic. - someone can help me fo find it (I use Tokugawa sensei's indexes but that needs to know the words searched) or give me some reference on this problem. - I woul'd be more than happy if yudhiSThira white-haired, bhIma, hanuman and duryodhana red, arjuna gold, nakula and sahadeva green, blue, brown or black. I thank you in advance, Dominique P.-S. 1: I've found some mistakes in Tokugawa sensei's mahAbhArata but I've forget his e-mail: can you give it me again ? P.-S. 2: Can someone give me the e-mail of an indian scholar in botanic, especially about pharmacological properties of plants ? P.-S. 3: Is one of you an ancient fellow from Oxford's Trinity College and can give (out of list's focus, then privately) references about an ivy's beer brewed in this place ? Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed May 14 09:33:05 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 11:33:05 +0200 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030227.23782.9495806980249078840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:16 13.05.97 BST, you wrote: > > COLOR OF SKIN > ************** > >Prof. P. Claus wrote: >+varna is related to an abstract color scheme, with white >+associated with Brahman, red with Ksatriya, or yellow with >+Vaishya, black with Sudra; and various steriotypical behaviours >+correlated with this. > >Can anybody please give some references? I want to know how black color >of skin is associated with things mean from Indian writings. I think the colours that go with the varnas go back to Indo-European times. You may find relevant information in the following books/papers: Emily B. Lyle: Dumezil's Three Functions and Indo-European Cosmic Structure. History of Religions, 22, pp. 25-44. Brian K. Smith (1992): Canonical Authority and Social Stratification: Veda and Varna in Ancient Indian Texts. History of Religions, 32 (2), 103-125. Brian K. Smith (1994): Classifying the Universe: The Ancient Indian varna System and the origins of caste. New York, Oxford University Press. As for Latin "niger", there is nothing derogatory in the word. When used about afro-americans, it acquired a derogatory meaning. It seems to me that this is due to an all-too-common process: Any term for a socially despised group acquires a derogatory sense. Compare the Latin word vulgus (noun)/vulgaris (adj): Originally it simply meant the "people/of the people", the people here as opposed to the aristocracy. The word was not derogatory, but the modern use of the word "vulgar" very clearly is. A hundred years ago you could call an uneducated Norwegian "en simpel man" (=a simple man") with no offense intended. Today, Norwegian "simpel" has acquired a derogatory sense: "mean, crude". As for "nigger", it belongs to the story that a afro-american may call a fellow black brother a nigger without giving offense. It is us honkeys that must refrain from using the word! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au Wed May 14 02:12:52 1997 From: sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au (sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 13:12:52 +1100 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030221.23782.2905860109014879186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am posting this comment on behalf of Santi Rozario: I have been finding the discussion of skin colour very interesting, since I am working at present on a paper on the role of skin colour in identity construction among young women in Bangladesh. There does not seem much literature on the subject and I would welcome any references which list members have. Perhaps too Robert Zydenbos could post the details of his study of Kannada fiction? On skin colours in Bengali (my native language), they are certainly very important especially in relation to marriageability. There are many words for them (not just four as Robert's informant said). The main distinctions are between kalo (black), farsha (light) and shemla (not too dark, but not light), but these can be qualified - halka shemla is lighter than shemla but not really light, garo shemla is between shemla and kalo, etc. Santi Rozario (sostr at cc.newcastle.edu.au) From ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Wed May 14 13:13:02 1997 From: ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 13:13:02 +0000 Subject: Oriya Fonts Message-ID: <161227030235.23782.16530056685335373582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These sites have some information about Oriya software. http://www.gy.com/www/or.htm http://www.flash.net/~patelvk/Oriya.html http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/mpcdir/products/index/oriya.htm Alec. Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds Leeds LS2 9JT United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu Wed May 14 20:18:15 1997 From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 13:18:15 -0700 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030250.23782.5928895359089799604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For more color/social status information in comparative IE traditions, you might want to check out the essay as translated by John Lindow of Dumezil's "Rigsthula and Social Structure" in Gods of the Ancient Northmen, UCLA 1973. Also, the shield of Achilleus in the Iliad has some interesting parallels... Chandan Narayan From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Wed May 14 21:48:59 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 14:48:59 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Euthenesia Message-ID: <161227030254.23782.4966582680407429701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Jayant Bapat writes: > >>Dear Colleagues >>A friend of mine has recently asked me what the position of >>Hinduism is in relation to Euthenesia. I do not know of any >>sources within Hinduism that have embraced this topic. >>Can someone help? >>Jayant Bapat If I remember right, many traditional commentators on Hinduism condemn euthanasia. Some seem to view it as an abrupt termination of ones Pra rabdha Karma, which would lead to greater grief in the next janma while others seem to interpret as an act of a human being playing God( i.e. the view that is offered by many Christian scholars). Interestingly enough, the main objection to this view seems to have been offered by Charaka, the Ayurvedic practitioner. To the best of my understanding, he seems to have taken the view that while falling sick can be interpreted as Karma, taking medication for it ( or the type of medication) is not really dictated by Karma. Therefore, when you had a patient suffering from a disease such that he/she had reached the point of no return, it was acceptable to reduce the suffering by termination( This was an extension of the principle of overcoming a curable disease through medication). Dr S.Cromwell Crawford, I believe also quotes Mahatma Gandhi as having supported this kind of "abrupt termination" of life inspite of his rigid stand on Himsa vs Ahimsa, on the ground that it helped decrease the suffering of the patient in the long run. There is a book by Dr S.Cromwell Crawford which covers this topic in a fair amount of detail ( can't recollect the name of the book offhand....something to do with Hindu Ethics) Krishna --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From athr at loc.gov Wed May 14 20:08:07 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 16:08:07 -0400 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030249.23782.7747298991882054709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > The problem of color in ancient India is not as straightforward (pardon the > pun) as black and white. Black has clear 'bad' connotations, but it also > has positive characteristics. > > BLACK AS BAD: Jaiminiya Brahmana 1.42-44: naked black man gurading the > river of blood in the tale of Bhrgu; he is Anger personified. Again black > man with yellow eyes (may be Yama personified) in Satapatha Brahmana > 1.6.1.1-13. Black as death in Taittiriya Samhita 5.7.5.1; also Aitareya > Aranyaka 3.2.4; Sankhayana Aranyaka 11.4 Black bird as evil omen in > Atharva Veda 7.64 (also 18.3.55; 19.57.4). Black and greedy--associated > with dirty beasts such as dog, jackal, vulture: Atharvaveda 11.2.2. When > Trisanku becomes an outcast his skin is black and coarse, has black > garments: Ramayana 1.57.9. Ravana, of course, is dark, and his color is > contrasted with that of Sita (white), she is like the star in a sphhire!! > Ramayana 3.50.21-23. In the Bharadvaja Pitrmedha Sutra (1.2.12) a black > bullock pulls the cart carrying a corpse; while at 1.4.3 a black cow is > offered, a cow that is old, dull, utterly bad, black-eyed, black--tailed, > black-hoofed. > > BLACK AS GOOD: if Ravana is dark, so is Rama: he is as dark as a blue lotus > (Ram 2.2.33; 2.77.8; 2.82.17); and so is Barata (Ram 2.104.15). And, of > course, there is Krishna. Kalidasa also compares Dilipa and his wife to a > rain cloud with a streak of lightning (Raghuvamsa 1.36); an image similar > to that of the star saffire used re. Ravana's capture of Sita in the > Ramayana. Black is also associated with Varuna (and thus with > water--Taittiriya Samhita 5.6.11-12; Satapatha Brahmana 5.2.5.17). Black is > the sign of Parjanya and rain: Satapatha Br. 3.3.4.11; Taittiriya Sam. > 2.1.8.5; 2.4.9.1. > > Black/dark is also a desirable quality when applied to eyes or hair (so > Sita is dark-eyed: Ramayana 2.4.2). White hair is a sign of old age and > hence bad. > > And finally at Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 6.4.14-16 we have rites to obtain > fair, ruddy, and dark sons (at least some people must have wanted a dark > son)--and, again breaking the stereotype we are used to, it gives rites to > obtain daughters!! > > Patrick Olivelle > > *********************************** > Patrick Olivelle > Director, Center for Asian Studies > Chair, Department of Asian Studies > WCH 4.134 (Mail Code G9300) > University of Texas > Austin, TX 78712-1194 > USA > *********************************** > UT Asian Studies website: > http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/index.html > > > > I wonder if there is an uneven distribution (is this the terminology?) of the words nIla and kRSNa: if something or someone can be called nIla as well as kRSNa, the darkness is beautiful and good; if he, she, or it is only called kRSNa is is bad and ugly. kRSNa I think means (in English color-divisions) black only; nIla blue, black, or even a dark purple leaning towards blue rather than black. Re desire for daughters: The Karmavipaka literature clearly regards having no daughters as a bad thing, though obviously not as bad as having no sons. I think it would regard the seven sons and three daughters that Job got after his trials as a good thing (though maybe two would be even better). I recall from my elementary S. Asia anthropology course from Cora Du Bois that one is not regarded as a fully adult man until one has married off a girl, and daughterless men therefore will sometimes take the leading role in arranging and paying for the wedding of a niece or a friend's daughter. Allen W. Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Wed May 14 06:28:51 1997 From: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au (dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 16:28:51 +1000 Subject: Bhasyas in electronic form Message-ID: <161227030223.23782.3984520136372777388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, After many hours of searching databases, I have come to the conclusion that no bhasya (eg. Sankara's Brahma Sutra Bhasya) material is available in electronic form. Can anyone confirm or deny that? Thanks in advance, David Dargie ***************************************************************** David Dargie Studies in Religion University of Queensland email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Phone: +61 7 3365 7334 Home: +61 7 3397 6863 ***************************************************************** From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Wed May 14 11:42:10 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 16:42:10 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227030233.23782.10308570194166421138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 13 May Lynn Foulston has written >Dear List Menbers, >Could anyone help me? >I am looking for an Oriya font that would be suitable for use in Word >documents. If anyone has any information I would be most grateful. > >Thanks >Lynn Foulston C-DAC of Poona has produced wordprocessor called LEAP with fonts for all indian languages. CDROM distributed with PCQUEST October 96 issue carried a trial version called LEAP LITE in which there is a single font for each language and the facility tosave only a single page. The keyboard layout is the same for the same letters in all languages. Additional letters charecteristic of individual languages are present. You can type a phonetic version in english and get the transliterated output in the scritp of that language.I am using it and I think that this will be useful to people who are working in Indology. Address of C-DAC C-DAC, Gist Group, (Centre for Developement of Advanced Computing) Pune University Campus, Ganesh Khind PUNE - 411 007 INDIA Email: leap at cdac.ernet.in You can also try to get the CDROM containing the trail version LEAP Lite from PCQUEST Magazine people. Address Customer Support Executive PCQUEST D-74,Panchseel Enclave NEW DELHI - 110 017 Fax: 011-6475765. Email: rse at pcquest.com Sarma. From mhcha at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Wed May 14 09:30:46 1997 From: mhcha at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in (Myanghee Cha) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 18:30:46 +0900 Subject: paaraajika Message-ID: <161227030236.23782.11722714742063834315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Dr. Akira Hirakawa introduces the etymology of Paaraajika(Skt. Paali) in > his book. > > 1) Paaraajika comes from *paaraJcika(AMg. paaraJciya)--Levi. > 2) Paaraajika comes form > paraajita--Buddhaghosa,Muulasarvaastivaadavinaya,Mvy. and PW. etc. > > And Dr.Hirakawa himself says its etimology is not clear. > > Does anybody know new views of its etymology? > > Ichiro NUMATA(inumata at hucc.hokudai.ac.jp) > > paraa + aj (to drive). Please consult "A Handbook of Paali Literature.", Oskar von Hinuber, 1996, page 10. Yours, Cha From foulston at msn.com Wed May 14 19:35:41 1997 From: foulston at msn.com (Lynn Foulston) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 19:35:41 +0000 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030247.23782.18295619244803701475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Noel, As far as I know the red and white stripes on South Indian temples and shrines are a sign of purity. Red has many associations many of them connected in some way to purity. The stripes seem to appear on all temples not just those dedicated to the goddess. The associations with Rajas and Sattva must also be there as the temple is a source of purity and power. Sorry I can't be more specific but I have asked numerous people in India about the stripes but the responses that I have had back have seemed vague. Regards Lynn Foulston foulston at msn.com -----Original Message----- From: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk On Behalf Of Noel Salmond Sent: 14 May 1997 01:53 To: Members of the list Subject: skin colour Is it relevant that the good guys in the Mahaabhaarata war are the sons of Paan.d.u and that Paan.d.u means white or pale in Sanskrit? I mention this because I noticed that the popular guru in the States, Swami Satchidananda writes (p. xxiii) of his : "...Dhritarashtra was blind, while his brother Pandu is said to be white-skinned. This isn't a reference to his race. The word pandu means white, which represents sattva, purity and tranquility. The five sons of Pandu are the products of tranquility and represent the virtuous human qualities." Does this contribute to, despite the good Swami's disclaimer about any reference to race, the association of white with the preferred (however unconsciously) in India? Another question: P. Claus links the colour white with Brahmins and red with Ks.atriyas. I would also like to know the source for this. When we see red and white vertical stripes painted on the outer walls of Hindu temples in India what does this symbolize? I assumed the red represents the goddess, or are we looking at sattva and rajas? Would someone please educate me on the meaning of these stripes. Noel Salmond From mhcha at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Wed May 14 12:55:34 1997 From: mhcha at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in (Myanghee Cha) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 21:55:34 +0900 Subject: paraajaka Message-ID: <161227030243.23782.937983272569708298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Dr. Akira Hirakawa introduces the etymology of Paaraajika(Skt. Paali) in > his book. > > 1) Paaraajika comes from *paaraJcika(AMg. paaraJciya)--Levi. > 2) Paaraajika comes form > paraajita--Buddhaghosa,Muulasarvaastivaadavinaya,Mvy. and PW. etc. > > And Dr.Hirakawa himself says its etimology is not clear. > > Does anybody know new views of its etymology? > > Ichiro NUMATA(inumata at hucc.hokudai.ac.jp) > > paraa + aj (to drive). Please consult "A Handbook of Paali Literature.", Oskar von Hinuber, 1996, page 10. Yours, Cha From jehms at globalxs.nl Wed May 14 21:27:46 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 22:27:46 +0100 Subject: Hinduism and Euthenesia Message-ID: <161227030252.23782.3536105652949067645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 14-mei-97 schreef Bapat Jb: >Dear Colleagues >A friend of mine has recently asked me what the position of >Hinduism is in relation to Euthenesia. I do not know of any >sources within Hinduism that have embraced this topic. >Can someone help? >Jayant Bapat Inviting Death (1986) Pursuing Death (1990) both by S. Settar, Karnatic University, Dharwad give the Jain point of view regards -e From R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz Wed May 14 22:57:33 1997 From: R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz (R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz) Date: Wed, 14 May 97 22:57:33 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Euthenesia Message-ID: <161227030256.23782.3339146297316843571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There is a book by Dr S.Cromwell Crawford which covers this topic in a fair >amount of detail ( can't recollect the name of the book >offhand....something to do with Hindu Ethics) I take it you mean: S. Cromwell Crawford, Dilemmas of life and death: Hindu ethics in North American context (SUNY Press, 1995). email: R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz From thillaud at unice.fr Thu May 15 05:28:22 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 07:28:22 +0200 Subject: mispelling Message-ID: <161227030257.23782.11601070172835009884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Apologies for my mispelling, I need the e-mail of Pr. Tokunaga, NOT Tokugawa. Regards, Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Thu May 15 15:21:51 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 09:21:51 -0600 Subject: Tamil related websites Message-ID: <161227030265.23782.7066545435041849502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10/15/97 Tamil related Websites ************************ Here are some of the websites for the Tamil magazines around the world. Many more exist. For classical Tamil texts, University of Koeln has a website. One time, Dr. Gary Hausman asked me the website for Kumutham magazine, the largest selling weekly in India. Here it is. Hope one day, a database with article titles, author, etc., in Tamil archival magazines like Kalaimakal from 1930s, Senthamizh, Senthamizh Selvi, Tamizhp Pozhil of Karanthai Tamil Sangam, Amudha Surabi, Pongal & Deepavali souvneirs, Tamil ChuDar sections of Dinamani is created and available on-line. I believe, for no Indian language, a bibliography on articles in quality journals is available in print also. It will be enormous help for researchers. There is plenty of bibliographical help for India related materials in English and good amount on books in Indian languages. But, almost none on Indian language quality journals! Hope the librarians, South Asia studies depts., the funding groups take a look at this. N. Ganesan ****************************************************** Tamil weeklies Anantha vikatan is at http://www.vikatan.com and Kumutham is at http://www.kumudam.com. Popular tamil daily Dina Mani is at http://www.dinamani.com and another tamil daily Thina Boomi is at http://www.indiadirect.com/thinaboomi/today. Literary tamil magazine Kanaiyazhi is at http://www.pcsadvt.com/kanaiyazhi, and weekly news magazine Nakkeeran is at http://www.pcsadvt.com/nakkheeran. Abirami Anthathi is available on net at http://venus-qe7.griffin.peachnet.edu/abirami/index.html, and thirukkuRaL is available at http://mathsun1.math.utk.edu:8000/~siddhart/thirukkural. Dr. Kalyana Sundaram, has collected lots of electronic texts in tamil, and they are available at http://dcwww.epfl.ch/icp/ICP-2/tamil.html. There is cybercommunity of people interested in tamil, called Tamil.Net. You can get more info about this at http://www.tamil.net. People communicate via tamil e-mail. There are software packages available, to help you learn tamil. They are developed by Dr. Kuppusamy. And you can get more information on them at http://members.aol.com/~kalvi. Murasu is a package of tamil fonts and various utilities. More info on it is available at their site http://www.murasu.com . They also have a free version of it, Murasu Anjal, which can be used to communicate in tamil thru emails, for Windows users. Dr. Kalyanasundaram has developed tamil fonts for Windows & Macintosh users, and he makes it available freely for everybody, and you can get more info on that from http://dcwww.epfl.ch/icp/ICP-2/KK/mylaik.html. You can listen to this week's top 10 tamil movie songs (very good quality!) from http://www.indiadirect.com/audio/index.html. Also they have "ungal viruppam", where you can request a song, and they'll play it for you. Another excellent site for tamil movie lovers is http://www.tamilcinema.com. It contains lots of information about all time tamil movies. For tamil movie song lovers, there is this "Tamil Film Music Page" at http://www.iti.gov.sg/iti_people/iti_staff/kanagasa/tfm/tfm.html. You can listen to live programs from Malaysian tamil radio at http://www.asiaconnect.com.my/rtm-net/live. Tamil drama artist S. Ve. Sekhar's home page is at http://www.chennai.com/stars/sveshekar/index.shtml. By any means, this is not the complete list of tamil sites. These are the ones that I've come across. S. Periyasamy * speri at blkbox.com * http://www.blkbox.com/~speri/ ******************************************************************* From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk Thu May 15 11:21:08 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 12:21:08 +0100 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030263.23782.14166532063668300332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a text which _denies_ the correlation between varna and skin colour: the _VajrasUcI Upanishad_. This text has been printed many times; the most accessible is in Radhakrishnan's _Principal Upanishads_. There is a substantially different recension published by A. Weber in Abhandlungen der Ko"niglichen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin (1859), pp. 205-6. Rammohun Roy published a version which shows some similarities to Weber's as against the usual recension (reprinted in _rAmamohana granthAbalI, part 4, pp. 45-8). The text, composed from an Advaita Vedant viewpoint, denies the reality of the notion of brAhmAna in any sense other than 'knower of Brahman'. It does so by asking whether one is a brahmin by birth, action, knowledge, etc., reducing each hypothesis in turn to absurdity. It includes this passage (using Rammohun's version): If one is a brahmin by varna, then a brahmin would be white because of his sattva guna, a kshatriya red because of his sattva and rajas nature, a vaishya yellow because of his rajas and tamas nature, and a shudra black because a shudra is made of tamas. Because, now and in former times, these colours are found in random distribution, varna does not make a brahmin. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Wed, 14 May 1997, Peter J. Claus wrote: > > Ganesan. Hello! > > I'm sure you're familiar with the many texts that utilize this varna > scheme. But I do not know whether they use it in relation to skin color. > That is an extrapolation, albeit I think a fairly common one. I suspect it > occurs primarily in conversational tradition, rather than textual > tradition. > > However, I, too, would be interested in any textual references > to this abstract color correspondance schem and skin color of individuals > or groups. Help, please. > > > On Tue, 13 May 1997 GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:18:46 BST > > From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu > > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > > To: Members of the list > > Subject: RE: Color of Skin > > > > > > COLOR OF SKIN > > ************** > > > > Prof. P. Claus wrote: > > +varna is related to an abstract color scheme, with white > > +associated with Brahman, red with Ksatriya, or yellow with > > +Vaishya, black with Sudra; and various steriotypical behaviours > > +correlated with this. > > > > Can anybody please give some references? I want to know how black color > > of skin is associated with things mean from Indian writings. > > > > Interestingly, I heard from a student at Columbia university that > > why Blacks detested the word, "Nigger"? Nigger, it seems in Latin > > not only means black, but "evil". He informed me: the humanistic philosopher > > Nietzsche discusses this in his famous book, "Beyond Good > > and Evil". Any relevent passage from Nietzsche's writings will be appreciated. > > > > Any parallel thoughts from Sanskrit works? Manu? smricandrika? > > chaturvargachintAmaNi? Any subaltern research papers on how Shudras > > were denigrated in Indian elite writings? > > > > Thanks, > > N. Ganesan > > > > > > > > > From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Thu May 15 10:35:36 1997 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 12:35:36 +0200 Subject: VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030259.23782.11164009256491690246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indeed it seems to be correct that the straightforward relation between varNas (B, K, V, Z) and colours (white, red, yelow, black) is more part of a popular tradition than it is warranted by ancient and classical texts. But there is a tendency among scholars to reiterate this tradition _as if_ it were a textual one. Hocart (_Caste in India_, 28) rejected that the four colours referred to skin but suggests that they should be associated with the four cardinal points. However, he gives no referrences in support of this view. Inden ("Lordship and Caste in Hindu Discourse", _Indian Religion_ eds. R. Burghart and A. Cantlie, 1985, 166) follows Hocart but associates the coulours with guNas and mental qualities, referring to ViSNudharmottarapuraaNa 1.7.9-12. (I have not got the text, but would like to know what it actually says. Could someone check?) R.S. Sharma (_Zuudras in Ancient India_, 3rd ed., 1990, 282) refers to VaayupuraaNa, app. 818, quoted in Patil, _Cultural History from the Vaayu PuraaNa_, 304, (what is the status of this "app. 818" in relation to the extant VP? does anyone know?) and to NaaTyazaastra 2.49-52 and 21.112-113. He also mentions Zaantiparvan but with no further referrence. In contrast, Brian Smith does not, it seems, correlate varNa and colour at all, neither in _Classifying the Universe_ (I have only checked his otherwise very detailed index) nor in "Canonical Authority and Social Classification" (_History of Religions_, 32, 103-25), see in particular his tables, p.123. Neither does Kane (_History of Dharmazaastra_, vol.2,1) refer to a 4varNas-4colours scheme. (But who knows whether he has touched upon the subject elsewhere in his _History_). In Aapastambadharmasuutra 1.9.27.11 (and Baudhaayanadharmasuutra 2.1.2.11) a severe penance is prescribed for a Brahmin who "serves the black varNa for one [day and] night". The commentators explain kRSNaM varNaM as a referrence to a zuudra or caNDaala woman, seeing in the Brahmin's transgression a sexual affair and a parallel to ManusmRti 11.179 which has "a zuudra woman" (vRSalii) instead of "the black varNa". Basically I agree with Hocart that these colours did not refer to skin (red kSatriyas? yelow vaizyas?) but are in some way used ideologically, but if it turns out that the scheme itself is not established at all, then we should rather drop the whole isue. Regards Mikael Aktor, Research Fellow, cand.phil. Department of History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From dran at cs.albany.edu Thu May 15 16:45:55 1997 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 12:45:55 -0400 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030270.23782.7466329822009068665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> D.H. Killingley wrote: > There is a text which _denies_ the correlation between varna and skin > colour: the _VajrasUcI Upanishad_. This text has been printed many times; > the most accessible is in Radhakrishnan's _Principal Upanishads_. There > is a substantially different recension published by A. Weber in > Abhandlungen der Ko"niglichen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin > (1859), pp. 205-6. Rammohun Roy published a version which shows some > similarities to Weber's as against the usual recension (reprinted > in _rAmamohana granthAbalI, part 4, pp. 45-8). Isn't there a work _vajrasuucii_ attributed to the poet aSvaghosha? I recall reading a Malayalam translation of it, by Prof. E.R. Sreekrishna Sharma, long ago. If I remember right, it is also an attack on the `var.na by birth' approach. Any relation between this and the upanishad? Is aSvaghosha's work a commentary on the upanishad? Another question on colours in the Mahabharata: wasn't Draupadi dark (krshNaa)? Narendran -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paliath Narendran Associate Professor URL: http://www.cs.albany.edu/~dran/ Department of Computer Science phone: (518)442-3387 University at Albany --- SUNY fax: (518)442-5638 Albany, NY 12222 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu May 15 21:15:52 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 14:15:52 -0700 Subject: skin colour Message-ID: <161227030273.23782.1851267609169167871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patrick Olivelle wrote: > And finally at Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 6.4.14-16 we have rites to obtain > fair, ruddy, and dark sons (at least some people must have wanted a dark ^^^^^^^^^ > son)--and, again breaking the stereotype we are used to, it gives rites to > obtain daughters!! > According to the upanishad, the dark son will also a knower of three Vedas, whereas the fair one will know only one Veda. Surely, here dark is superior! S. Vidyasankar From ARB at maestro.com Thu May 15 20:30:53 1997 From: ARB at maestro.com (ARB) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 16:30:53 -0400 Subject: need book: Nou: Taj Mahal Message-ID: <161227030272.23782.3865786500658570915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need to purchase several copies of J. Nou: Taj Mahal (1993) please let me know if any are available for sale Thanks, Stephen Feldman FAX 212 316 3408 From rasa at gpnet.it Thu May 15 15:51:46 1997 From: rasa at gpnet.it (Rinaldo RASA) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 17:51:46 +0200 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030267.23782.11142774055962831599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> please can someone tell how can remove from the list? thanks a lot Rinaldo. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Fri May 16 01:27:34 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Thu, 15 May 97 19:27:34 -0600 Subject: Grantha script font Message-ID: <161227030277.23782.8329170207711083864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fonts for Grantha script ************************** Where can we get grantha script fonts for Windows? In the South, many still use grantha characters to write or read Sanskrit. N. Ganesan From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Fri May 16 13:39:07 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 06:39:07 -0700 Subject: VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030282.23782.15794996070045123760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mikael Aktor provides a very useful review of the some of the literature which deals with the relationship between varna and color. I certainly would not discount popular interpretations, but it IS unfortunate that scholars have not been very precise as to what source they see as legitimating a claim. I would imagine that there are conflicting sources in standard and classical (whatever that may mean) references. There are, incidentally, a number of caste puranas in the non-Brahman oral tradition (which sometimes make it into the literary tradition under certain circumstances) which speak of more than 4 varnas (16 is a frequent number) and I don't think (indeed, I can't even imagine!) these are color-coded. So there doesn't seem to be any necessary relationship between varna and color-scheme even in the most popular traditions. However, that doesn't mean that where it DOES occur (co-occur) it is not interesting. I would still like to hear of such sources. Doesn't the Bhagavat Gita have a section on this, eg.? Peter Claus On Thu, 15 May 1997, Mikael Aktor wrote: > Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:53:41 BST > From: Mikael Aktor > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: VarNa and colour > > Indeed it seems to be correct that the straightforward relation between > varNas (B, K, V, Z) and colours (white, red, yelow, black) is more part of a > popular tradition than it is warranted by ancient and classical texts. But > there is a tendency among scholars to reiterate this tradition _as if_ it > were a textual one. > > Hocart (_Caste in India_, 28) rejected that the four colours referred to > skin but suggests that they should be associated with the four cardinal > points. However, he gives no referrences in support of this view. > > Inden ("Lordship and Caste in Hindu Discourse", _Indian Religion_ eds. R. > Burghart and A. Cantlie, 1985, 166) follows Hocart but associates the > coulours with guNas and mental qualities, referring to > ViSNudharmottarapuraaNa 1.7.9-12. (I have not got the text, but would like > to know what it actually says. Could someone check?) > > R.S. Sharma (_Zuudras in Ancient India_, 3rd ed., 1990, 282) refers to > VaayupuraaNa, app. 818, quoted in Patil, _Cultural History from the Vaayu > PuraaNa_, 304, (what is the status of this "app. 818" in relation to the > extant VP? does anyone know?) and to NaaTyazaastra 2.49-52 and 21.112-113. > He also mentions Zaantiparvan but with no further referrence. > > In contrast, Brian Smith does not, it seems, correlate varNa and colour at > all, neither in _Classifying the Universe_ (I have only checked his > otherwise very detailed index) nor in "Canonical Authority and Social > Classification" (_History of Religions_, 32, 103-25), see in particular his > tables, p.123. > > Neither does Kane (_History of Dharmazaastra_, vol.2,1) refer to a > 4varNas-4colours scheme. (But who knows whether he has touched upon the > subject elsewhere in his _History_). > > In Aapastambadharmasuutra 1.9.27.11 (and Baudhaayanadharmasuutra 2.1.2.11) a > severe penance is prescribed for a Brahmin who "serves the black varNa for > one [day and] night". The commentators explain kRSNaM varNaM as a referrence > to a zuudra or caNDaala woman, seeing in the Brahmin's transgression a > sexual affair and a parallel to ManusmRti 11.179 which has "a zuudra woman" > (vRSalii) instead of "the black varNa". > > Basically I agree with Hocart that these colours did not refer to skin (red > kSatriyas? yelow vaizyas?) but are in some way used ideologically, but if it > turns out that the scheme itself is not established at all, then we should > rather drop the whole isue. > > Regards > > Mikael Aktor, Research Fellow, cand.phil. > > Department of History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, > Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. > > Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk > > > From prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp Thu May 15 23:09:41 1997 From: prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp (prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 08:09:41 +0900 Subject: Haribhakti-Sudhaakarah Message-ID: <161227030275.23782.11500104953350529684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all members I would like to request you to furnish information on Haribhakti-Sudhaakarah. Thanks in advance Hisashi MATSUMURA prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk Fri May 16 08:33:14 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 09:33:14 +0100 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030278.23782.3116715312554183077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, there is a similar work attributed to Asvaghosa, attacking the idea of varna from the Buddhist standpoint (though the Buddhist affiliation is not obvious; in fact, Launcelot Wilkinson who edited to first printed edition in 1839 did not at that time know it was Buddhist. The two texts were published together by Sujit Kumar Mukhopadhyaya (_The VajrasUcI of AzvaghoSa_, 1st edn, Santiniketan, 1950; 2nd enlarged edn, Santiniketan, 1960). The two have often been confused, but they are different texts although using the same basic idea. There is some uncertainty which is earlier and which is an imitation of the other, but Mukhopadhyaya puts the Buddhist one earlier, on the grounds that the sastric texts it quotes are from the Vedas, MBh and Manu, while the VajrasUcI UpaniSad quotes Puranas also. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Thu, 15 May 1997, Paliath Narendran wrote: > > D.H. Killingley wrote: > > > There is a text which _denies_ the correlation between varna and skin > > colour: the _VajrasUcI Upanishad_. This text has been printed many times; > > the most accessible is in Radhakrishnan's _Principal Upanishads_. There > > is a substantially different recension published by A. Weber in > > Abhandlungen der Ko"niglichen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin > > (1859), pp. 205-6. Rammohun Roy published a version which shows some > > similarities to Weber's as against the usual recension (reprinted > > in _rAmamohana granthAbalI, part 4, pp. 45-8). > > Isn't there a work _vajrasuucii_ attributed to the poet > aSvaghosha? I recall reading a Malayalam translation of it, by > Prof. E.R. Sreekrishna Sharma, long ago. If I remember right, it > is also an attack on the `var.na by birth' approach. > > Any relation between this and the upanishad? Is aSvaghosha's work a > commentary on the upanishad? > > Another question on colours in the Mahabharata: wasn't Draupadi > dark (krshNaa)? > > Narendran > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paliath Narendran > Associate Professor URL: http://www.cs.albany.edu/~dran/ > Department of Computer Science phone: (518)442-3387 > University at Albany --- SUNY fax: (518)442-5638 > Albany, NY 12222 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Fri May 16 15:36:38 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 09:36:38 -0600 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030284.23782.417230404749326752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5/16/97 Color of Skin ************** With Krishna getting lighter as years pass by, it is interesting that old Tamil literature praises only dark brown color. Not the fair complexion. Girls' hues are said to be of sprouting mango leaves - maanthaLir niRam. The color that repeatedly comes in ancient Tamil sangam works is "maal/maamai/maa". Vishnu's name in Tamil Tirumaal is from this "maal". This word has survived to this day. "poNNu maaniRamaa iruppaa" (The bride is brown in color.) Only brown complexion is praised, so much so that fair color is not desired! When the heroine suffers due to separation from hero: 1) She becomes weak & sallow. She complains "The beauty of my darkness is disappearing. Sallowness is spreading all over my body to my disgust". - AinguRunuuRu 35 2) "Due to paleness arising out of separation, she turns into the color of conch shell, losing all elegence". - AinguRunuuRu 470 3) The changing complexion of the heroine's body is compared to a dark plant sprouting white flowers. - Narrinai 302 Black/brown color was not only good for women. For Kings too! "karungkai oLvaaL perumpeyar vazhuti" The Pandya King's praise is laden in adjectives. "Pandyan with black hands, shining sword and great fame". There is no hint of "lowness" for being dark. In 12th century mUvar ulaa by OTTakkuuttar, Vikrama Chola (a descendent of Rajarajan I who built Tanjore temple) is eulogized as "Dark Cloud". In the medieval commentary to muuvar ulaa, Krishna and Chola Kings are compared to Black Cloud (Kanrung koNDal) for two reasons - for their patronage and also for color. An intended pun. The Mahabharata's black/white/in-between etc., are interesting. These mixings in Ancient India have been dealt by Prof. Madhav Deshpande in many of his writings: a) Aryan and NonAryan in India, U. Michigan, 1979 b) Sociolinguistic attitudes in India, 1979 c) Sanskrit and Prakrit: Sociolinguistic issues, Delhi, 1993 d) Aryans, Non-Aryans and Brahmanas: Processes of Indigenization, J. of IE studies, 1993 etc., In tamil, there is a proverb: "Don't believe a white paraiyan or a dark brahmin". Subtle meaning is that these colors are unusual/suspicious in these castes. Accusations of racial impurity. Many of the existing priestly clans must have learnt sanskrit and claimed brahminhood over the years. When Ramanujar created the caste of Ayyangars, many nonbrahmins entered into that scheme. Many have Pillai as their surnames. Only from 14th century or so, we hear the name "Ayyangar" (Mainly from Pillaipperumal Aiyangar's time onwards, the famous author of ashta prabandhams) . Adhisaiva Sivacharyar priests in tamil nadu is another case in point. They are ancient Tamils, preservers of the Agama tradition. There is a fifth century Tirumantiram that says "If brahmins do archana at Siva temples, King will die, famine will result, Diseases will multiply". Old commentaries say this Tirumantiram specifically stipulates that only Adhisaivas should perform pujas at Siva temples, not just any brahmin. Helene Brunner discusses the origins of the Adisaiva brahmin lineages and speculates that they may represent an indigenous non-brahmin priestly group who successfully claimed brahmin status. Her article, in French, is "Les categories sociales vediques dans le Sivaisme du sud," Journal asiatique 252 (1964): 452-72. Richard Davis discussed the Adisaivas of Tamilnad in an article, Aghorasiva's Background, Journal of Oriental Research (Dr. S. S. Janaki Felicitation Volume) 56-62 (1992):367-78. I am leaving for India next week. Will spend a month meeting professors (ages 70-96) interested in old tamil. Of course, they are of many jAtis, religions, varnas, colors and schools of thought. N. Ganesan From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Fri May 16 08:54:19 1997 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 10:54:19 +0200 Subject: VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030280.23782.13606637812570115397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to be the case that the straightforward relation between varNas (B, K, V, Z) and colours (white, red, yelow, black) is more part of a popular tradition than it is warranted by ancient and classical texts. But there is a tendency among scholars to reiterate this tradition _as if_ it were a textual one. Hocart (_Caste in India_, 28) rejected that the four colours refered to skin but suggests that they should be associated with the four cardinal points. However, he gives no references in support of this view. Inden ("Lordship and Caste in Hindu Discourse", _Indian Religion_ eds. R. Burghart and A. Cantlie, 1985, 166) follows Hocart but associates the coulours with guNas and mental qualities, refering to ViSNudharmottarapuraaNa 1.7.9-12. (I have not got the text, but would like to know what it actually says. Could someone check?) R.S. Sharma (_Zuudras in Ancient India_, 3rd ed., 1990, 282) refers to VaayupuraaNa, app. 818, quoted in Patil, _Cultural History from the Vaayu PuraaNa_, 304, (what is the status of this "app. 818" in relation to the extant VP? does anyone know?) and to NaaTyazaastra 2.49-52 and 21.112-113. He also mentions Zaantiparvan but with no further reference. In contrast, Brian Smith does not, it seems, correlate varNa and colour at all, neither in _Classifying the Universe_ (I have only checked his very detailed index) nor in "Canonical Authority and Social Classification" (_History of Religions_, 32, 103-25), see in particular his tables, p.123. Neither do I find a reference to a 4varNas-4colours scheme in Kane's _History of Dharmazaastra_, vol.2,1, where we would expect it. (But who knows whether he has touched upon it somewhere else on his 5-6000 pages?) In Aapastambadharmasuutra 1.9.27.11 (and Baudhaayanadharmasuutra 2.1.2.11) a severe penance is prescribed for a Brahmin who "serves the black varNa for one [day and] night". The commentators explain kRSNaM varNaM as a reference to a zuudra or caNDaala woman, seeing in the Brahmin's transgression a sexual affair and a parallel to ManusmRti 11.179 which has "a zuudra woman" (vRSalii) instead of "the black varNa". Hocart was probably right that these colours did not refer to skin (red kSatriyas? yelow vaizyas?) but were used ideologically in some way, but if it turns out that the scheme itself is only represented very randomly in classical texts this must be acknowledged. The Vajrasuucii text quoted by another list member was very explicit, but what is the date of this text? (Apologies if this message has been received already. It was sent yesterday but I did not get it myself from the Indology listserver as I am supposed to do). Best regards Mikael Aktor, Research Fellow, cand.phil. Department of History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri May 16 21:39:43 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 14:39:43 -0700 Subject: Color of Skin Message-ID: <161227030294.23782.2178584349564126267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 16 May 1997 GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: [..] > Adhisaiva Sivacharyar priests in tamil nadu is another case in > point. They are ancient Tamils, preservers of the Agama tradition. > There is a fifth century Tirumantiram that says > "If brahmins do archana at Siva temples, King will die, > famine will result, Diseases will multiply". Old commentaries > say this Tirumantiram specifically stipulates that > only Adhisaivas should perform pujas at Siva temples, not just > any brahmin. Helene Brunner discusses > the origins of the Adisaiva brahmin lineages and speculates that they may > represent an indigenous non-brahmin priestly group who successfully > claimed brahmin status. Her article, in French, is "Les categories > sociales vediques dans le Sivaisme du sud," Journal asiatique 252 (1964): > 452-72. Richard Davis discussed the Adisaivas of Tamilnad in an article, > Aghorasiva's Background, Journal of Oriental Research (Dr. S. S. Janaki > Felicitation Volume) 56-62 (1992):367-78. See also C. J. Fuller's "Servants of the Goddess," on the Adisaiva priests at the Madurai Meenakshi-Sundareswarar temple, published by the Cambridge University Press. Are the Chidambaram Dikshitars considered to be Adisaivas? They seem to form a separate group by themselves. S. Vidyasankar From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Fri May 16 19:09:05 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 15:09:05 -0400 Subject: IASWR address? Message-ID: <161227030290.23782.6397403767980170694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Mauro MAGGI wrote: > Dear list members, > > Does any of you know the address of the Institute for Advanced Studies of > World Religions (IASWR), New York, that issued a microfiche edition (1990) > of the Kanjur MS from Phug brag housed in the Library of Tibetan Works and > Archives in Dharamsala. > > Thank you in advance for your kind help. > > Mauro Maggi > Rome > "Institute for Advanced Studies of World Religions, NY" sushil mittal iiis and whp quebec canada From athr at loc.gov Fri May 16 20:12:19 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 16:12:19 -0400 Subject: IASWR address? Message-ID: <161227030292.23782.12579726025038634186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The address is: Institute for Advanced Studies of World Religions RD #2, Route 301 Carmel, NY 10512 tel. 914-225-1445 fax 914-225-1485 email: IASWR at AOL.COM Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov On Fri, 16 May 1997, Mittal Sushil wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Mauro MAGGI wrote: > > > Dear list members, > > > > Does any of you know the address of the Institute for Advanced Studies of > > World Religions (IASWR), New York, that issued a microfiche edition (1990) > > of the Kanjur MS from Phug brag housed in the Library of Tibetan Works and > > Archives in Dharamsala. > > > > Thank you in advance for your kind help. > > > > Mauro Maggi > > Rome > > > > > "Institute for Advanced Studies of World Religions, NY" > > > sushil mittal > iiis and whp > quebec > canada > > > From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat May 17 01:01:31 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 18:01:31 -0700 Subject: VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030297.23782.18094014031155326671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:00 PM 5/15/97 BST, Mikael Aktor wrote: >Indeed it seems to be correct that the straightforward relation between >varNas (B, K, V, Z) and colours (white, red, yelow, black) is more part of a >popular tradition than it is warranted by ancient and classical texts. But >there is a tendency among scholars to reiterate this tradition _as if_ it >were a textual one. The texts usually identify the four yugas with the four colors, and as the varnas are sometimes associated to the yugas, the relation is probably indirect. It is a symbolical correspondence that is frequently applied to sets of four. According to the Mbh, the color of Narayana/Visnu/Krsna throughout the yugas is white, red, yellow and black (Mbh 3.148.16,23,26,33); but soon after it is said to be white, yellow, red and black (Mbh 3.187.31). Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From mmaggi at sinergia.it Fri May 16 18:11:34 1997 From: mmaggi at sinergia.it (mmaggi at sinergia.it) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 19:11:34 +0100 Subject: IASWR address? Message-ID: <161227030288.23782.16270772349347539306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Does any of you know the address of the Institute for Advanced Studies of World Religions (IASWR), New York, that issued a microfiche edition (1990) of the Kanjur MS from Phug brag housed in the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives in Dharamsala. Thank you in advance for your kind help. Mauro Maggi Rome From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Sat May 17 01:37:55 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 19:37:55 -0600 Subject: grantha script Message-ID: <161227030295.23782.6757016415739669657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the offer, Philip. Sanskrit in grantha characters is really beautiful. So say many. It will be a great service, if those fonts are made available. N. Ganesan At 01:35 16.5.1997 +0100, GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > Fonts for Grantha script > ************************** > >Where can we get grantha script fonts for Windows? >In the South, many still use grantha characters >to write or read Sanskrit. > >N. Ganesan If you don't find any, I might give a shot at designing a Grantha font -- when/if I get time later this summer. I've been dreaming of it ever since I read Bartolomei's Sanskrit grammar in facsimile! :) I for one don't think Devanagari particularly beautiful -- with the possible exception of the font Whitney used in his grammar. Otoh I'm probably pretty alone in finding Sanskrit in Tibetan script appealing... Chacun a son fa,con, ne c'est pas? Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Fri May 16 16:29:36 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 21:29:36 +0500 Subject: Colour of skin Message-ID: <161227030286.23782.5835412295673667857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not only Krishna and Draupadi, even Arjuna and Vedavyasa are supposed to be black. Bharata in Ramayana is also depicted as black. In Kalidasa's Meghdoot the Yakshi is 'syaama' or black. Sarma. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Sat May 17 13:07:01 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Sat, 17 May 97 07:07:01 -0600 Subject: Varna and Color Message-ID: <161227030300.23782.3127361531399449271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5/17/97 Varna and Color There is a centuries old attack on Varnasrama system which is popular too. See, A. V. Subramania Aiyar (1900-), Kapilarakaval: a medieval poem on caste: a free English rendering with the text and an introduction on the evolution of caste and notes with appendices. Madras, 1975, 123p. OCLC No: 3034800 K. Zvelebil, Kabilar's akaval, New Orient Bimonthly, Prague, VI, 1961, p. 164-165 There are some more literature registering protest and citing ill-effects of Varnasrama dharma. eg., Tamil siddhar poetry, Paayccaluur Pathikam, Kulacangkaara maalai..., N. Ganesan From thillaud at unice.fr Sat May 17 09:12:12 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 17 May 97 11:12:12 +0200 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030301.23782.6776078752361837574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 3:16 +0200 17/05/97, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >At 12:00 PM 5/15/97 BST, Mikael Aktor wrote: >>Indeed it seems to be correct that the straightforward relation between >>varNas (B, K, V, Z) and colours (white, red, yelow, black) is more part of a >>popular tradition than it is warranted by ancient and classical texts. But >>there is a tendency among scholars to reiterate this tradition _as if_ it >>were a textual one. > >The texts usually identify the four yugas with the four colors, and as the >varnas are sometimes associated to the yugas, the relation is probably >indirect. It is a symbolical correspondence that is frequently applied to >sets of four. > >According to the Mbh, the color of Narayana/Visnu/Krsna throughout the yugas >is white, red, yellow and black (Mbh 3.148.16,23,26,33); but soon after it >is said to be white, yellow, red and black (Mbh 3.187.31). > > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >University of California, Berkeley This exchange between red and yellow is very interesting to me because I believe this two colours are linked to warriors in eurindian myths. So I have some requests about dice game: What is the meaning of -para in dvApara ? (if 'more than', that's a bit confusing). I know kRta the better and kali the worst, but what about treta and dvApara ? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat May 17 20:42:57 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 17 May 97 13:42:57 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030305.23782.9480578731571536452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:25 PM 5/17/97 BST, you wrote: >At 3:16 +0200 17/05/97, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >>At 12:00 PM 5/15/97 BST, Mikael Aktor wrote: >>>Indeed it seems to be correct that the straightforward relation between >>>varNas (B, K, V, Z) and colours (white, red, yelow, black) is more part of a >>>popular tradition than it is warranted by ancient and classical texts. But >>>there is a tendency among scholars to reiterate this tradition _as if_ it >>>were a textual one. >> >>The texts usually identify the four yugas with the four colors, and as the >>varnas are sometimes associated to the yugas, the relation is probably >>indirect. It is a symbolical correspondence that is frequently applied to >>sets of four. >> >>According to the Mbh, the color of Narayana/Visnu/Krsna throughout the yugas >>is white, red, yellow and black (Mbh 3.148.16,23,26,33); but soon after it >>is said to be white, yellow, red and black (Mbh 3.187.31). >> >> >>Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >>University of California, Berkeley > > This exchange between red and yellow is very interesting to me >because I believe this two colours are linked to warriors in eurindian >myths. > So I have some requests about dice game: > What is the meaning of -para in dvApara ? (if 'more than', that's a >bit confusing). > I know kRta the better and kali the worst, but what about treta and >dvApara ? > Regards, >Dominique > > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France The names of the dice throws, K.rta TretA, DvApara, and Kali, are associated with the descending numerical sequence 4-3-2-1. TretA comes from tri (3), and DvApara from dva (2. They are obvious cognates of other IE names for the same numbers. K.rta is the past passive participle of the root k.r, "to do". It means "done" and, by extension, "well done" or "good." So K.rta is the winning throw, TretA is the next one down, then folow DvApara, and the worst (and losing) throw is Kali. These na From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat May 17 21:18:21 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 17 May 97 14:18:21 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030307.23782.15581461497456126752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize for mistakenly mailing an incomplete version of this posting earlier. This is the complete one. Luis At 03:25 PM 5/17/97 BST, Dominique THILLAUD wrote: > I know kRta the better and kali the worst, but what about treta and >dvApara ? > Regards, >Dominique The names of the dice throws, K.rta TretA, DvApara, and Kali, are associated with the descending numerical sequence 4-3-2-1 (like the Pythagorean tetraktys). TretA comes from tri (3), and DvApara from dva (2). They are obvious cognates of other IE names for the same numbers. K.rta is the past passive participle of the root k.r, "to do" (Pisani has a different etymology for K.rta that connects it with 4, see Mayrhofer). It means "done" and, by extension, "well done" or "good." So K.rta is the winning throw, TretA is the next one down, then comes DvApara, and the worst (and losing) throw is Kali. Kali means conflict, bad luck; but whether this meaning is derived from the dice throw or it informed it, is no perfectly clear. These names were used to rate things from good to bad on a descending scale. They were so used to name the four yugas, so K.rta became the best one, and so on. The 4-3-2-1 sequence became fundamental to the yugas, as they were said to last for 4 000, 3 000, 2 000, and 1 000 years respectively; with sandhis of 400, 300, 200, and 100 years. The cow of dharma was said to stand on 4 feet in K.rta, 3 in TretA, and so on. If you apply the 4-3-2-1 sequence to the circumference, with its 360 degrees, you will get 4 arcs of 144, 108, 72, and 36 degrees respectively. This is how the "divine years" of the yugas were turned into "human years," as a divine year was said to equal 360 human years. So, for example, K.rta is 4 000 divine yrs. x 360 = 1 440 000 + (144 000 x 2) = 1 728 000 human yrs. 144 000 is one sandhi in human years (400 x 360). By this procedure the total number of human years in the four yugas is 4 320 000. Take away a few zeros and you have 432 000, which is the duration of the Kali yuga. But add zeroes and you get the duration of the kalpa: 4 320 000 000. 432 000 is a very important number, as it is the result of 120 x 3 600. According to the Satapatha BrAhmaNa the Rg Veda has 12 000 verses of 36 syllables = 432 000 total. I hope this helps. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From garzilli at shore.net Sun May 18 00:16:32 1997 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 17 May 97 20:16:32 -0400 Subject: Keris Message-ID: <161227030303.23782.18275852719681663768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody help me in finding a bibliography on Indonesian women Keris (its history, technical description, use, and social meaning). Thank you in advance, -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli Univ. of Perugia (ITALY) Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india/) Mng. Editor, EJVS (http://www.shore.net/~india/ejvs) ************************************************ From ARB at maestro.com Sun May 18 11:11:03 1997 From: ARB at maestro.com (ARB) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 07:11:03 -0400 Subject: old Indological books in New York City Message-ID: <161227030309.23782.8967883207163700065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We seem to have an influx of Indological books with more to come including 19th c. & earlier books with illustrations, etc. on the way. We do not necessarily plan to catalogue most and put them on our website so if you are going to be in New York City this summer or Autumn you may want to visit us "by appointment only please." Stephen Feldman ASIAN RARE BOOKS on the Upper West Side of Manhattan not far from Columbia FAX 1 212 316 3408 PHONE 1 212 316 5334 From pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu Sun May 18 14:33:29 1997 From: pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 07:33:29 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030311.23782.5040211601930826056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And what can we make of the fact that the sum of the units in each of these numbers = 9? eg. 1 728 000 = 1+7+2+8=18=1+8=9? This is true of so many of the "indic" numbers we come across -- the japa mala of 108 beads,etc. Are there any specific references to this number in the ancient literature? Or should we look to the 3? On Sat, 17 May 1997 22:28:07 BST Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > I apologize for mistakenly mailing an incomplete version of this posting > earlier. This is the complete one. > > Luis > > > > At 03:25 PM 5/17/97 BST, Dominique THILLAUD wrote: > > > > I know kRta the better and kali the worst, but what about treta and > >dvApara ? > > Regards, > >Dominique > > > > The names of the dice throws, K.rta TretA, DvApara, and Kali, are associated > with the descending numerical sequence 4-3-2-1 (like the Pythagorean > tetraktys). TretA comes from tri (3), and DvApara from dva (2). They are > obvious cognates of other IE names for the same numbers. K.rta is the past > passive participle of the root k.r, "to do" (Pisani has a different > etymology for K.rta that connects it with 4, see Mayrhofer). It means > "done" and, by extension, "well done" or "good." So K.rta is the winning > throw, TretA is the next one down, then comes DvApara, and the worst (and > losing) throw is Kali. Kali means conflict, bad luck; but whether this > meaning is derived from the dice throw or it informed it, is no perfectly clear. > These names were used to rate things from good to bad on a descending scale. > They were so used to name the four yugas, so K.rta became the best one, and > so on. The 4-3-2-1 sequence became fundamental to the yugas, as they were > said to last for 4 000, 3 000, 2 000, and 1 000 years respectively; with > sandhis of 400, 300, 200, and 100 years. The cow of dharma was said to > stand on 4 feet in K.rta, 3 in TretA, and so on. > > If you apply the 4-3-2-1 sequence to the circumference, with its 360 > degrees, you will get 4 arcs of 144, 108, 72, and 36 degrees respectively. > This is how the "divine years" of the yugas were turned into "human years," > as a divine year was said to equal 360 human years. > So, for example, > > K.rta is 4 000 divine yrs. x 360 = 1 440 000 + (144 000 x 2) = 1 728 000 > human yrs. > > 144 000 is one sandhi in human years (400 x 360). > > By this procedure the total number of human years in the four yugas is 4 320 > 000. Take away a few zeros and you have 432 000, which is the duration of > the Kali yuga. But add zeroes and you get the duration of the kalpa: 4 320 > 000 000. > > 432 000 is a very important number, as it is the result of 120 x 3 600. > According to the Satapatha BrAhmaNa the Rg Veda has 12 000 verses of 36 > syllables = 432 000 total. > > I hope this helps. > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > University of California, Berkeley > > ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu Sun May 18 14:38:22 1997 From: pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 07:38:22 -0700 Subject: Bibliography Message-ID: <161227030313.23782.8135819445858505918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for a Windows-based program (preferably down-loadable from the Net) for generating bibliographies which has, or to which I can apply a template with, diacritical marks. Can anyone recommend one? ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Sun May 18 18:50:22 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 10:50:22 -0800 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030317.23782.3816621165489122271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:29 +0100 5/17/97, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > >The names of the dice throws, K.rta TretA, DvApara, and Kali, are associated >with the descending numerical sequence 4-3-2-1 (like the Pythagorean >tetraktys). TretA comes from tri (3), and DvApara from dva (2). They are >obvious cognates of other IE names for the same numbers. K.rta is the past >passive participle of the root k.r, "to do" (Pisani has a different >etymology for K.rta that connects it with 4, see Mayrhofer). Mayrhofer says Pisani's reconstruction does not agree with known phonological laws. Yet doesn't some of the Skt. literature refer to the yuga sequence also in a different way at times? I mean, instead of 4-3-2-1 for k.rta, etc. there would be the first yuga (k.rta), the second (tretA), etc. If I remember correctly, in one of your own previous posts there was a MBh quote that inverted the colors of the second and third yuga. In this kind of account of the yuga sequence, of course, the names tretA (etymologically connected with 3) and dvApara (etymologically connected with 2) are in metathesis, so to speak. What's the logic behind one and the other accounts of the yuga sequence? Regards, Beatrice From wtrimble at mail.slc.edu Sun May 18 18:56:01 1997 From: wtrimble at mail.slc.edu (W Trimble) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 14:56:01 -0400 Subject: Name of laghu/guru patterns Message-ID: <161227030318.23782.9924564273780329840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In order to better memorize 'slokas I, would like to learn the melodies attached to some of the major metres. Are there any recordings available? Thanks in advance. W Trimble >An easy source for a long listing of these metrical patterns is an >appendix in Apte's Sanskrit Dictionary. > Madhav Deshpande > >On Mon, 12 May 1997, Ralph Bunker wrote: > >> I have an incomplete list of the names of patterns of laghu/guru syllables >> in a pada. For example, >> >> gajagati (gait of an elephant) is the name given to the pattern GGGLGGGL >> (where G is Guru and L Laghu) and >> pramANikA (measure) is the name given to the pattern GLGLGLGL >> >> Can somebody tell me where I can find a complete list of such pattern names? >> English commentary would be helpful. >> >> TIA >> --ralph >> >> >> From das at netcom.com Sun May 18 22:27:49 1997 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 15:27:49 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030320.23782.3938294208255785982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 18 May 1997, Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: > And what can we make of the fact that the sum of the units > in each of these numbers = 9? eg. 1 728 000 = > 1+7+2+8=18=1+8=9? This is true of so many of the "indic" > numbers we come across -- the japa mala of 108 beads,etc. > Are there any specific references to this number in the > ancient literature? Or should we look to the 3? This is NOT a scholarly opinion -- in any sense of that word :-). During an idle holiday few years ago, I was fooling around with various "indic" numbers, calculations etc. They *seemed* to be based on trinary logic. A rudimentary example is how easy it is to factor numbers - 108 is (3**3) x (2**3) -- of course, if you like symmetry and sequences you can also multiply that by (1**3)! That would make 3 factors, 3 numbers in a sequence and 3 cubes. The other number mentioned 1,728,000 can be trivially split as (2**3) x (3**3) x (2**3) x (10**3). [ By the way, "a**b" means "a" raised to the power of "b".] Bizarre? Certainly. But most numbers that I looked at had the "thread of 3", interwoven in it. das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sun May 18 14:41:32 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 16:41:32 +0200 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030315.23782.9871495528179606835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:41 18.05.97 BST, you wrote: >And what can we make of the fact that the sum of the units >in each of these numbers = 9? eg. 1 728 000 = >1+7+2+8=18=1+8=9? This is true of so many of the "indic" >numbers we come across -- the japa mala of 108 beads,etc. >Are there any specific references to this number in the >ancient literature? Or should we look to the 3? Maybe you will find relevant data in the following paper: Eric Pirart, Le Sacrifice Humain, Reflexions sur la Philosophie religieuse indo-iranienne ancienne. Journal Asiatique, 284.1 (1996), p. 1-35. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Mon May 19 04:21:01 1997 From: wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (wart) Date: Sun, 18 May 97 22:21:01 -0600 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030328.23782.8538765028730057804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a sum of 9 as well. Since all of the numbers mentioned are products of 360, which is 9x40, they will all be multiples of 9. David Allen Edmonton, Canada email: wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca On Sun, 18 May 1997, Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: > And what can we make of the fact that the sum of the units > in each of these numbers = 9? eg. 1 728 000 = > 1+7+2+8=18=1+8=9? This is true of so many of the "indic" > numbers we come across -- the japa mala of 108 beads,etc. > Are there any specific references to this number in the > ancient literature? Or should we look to the 3? > > On Sat, 17 May 1997 22:28:07 BST Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > wrote: > > > > I apologize for mistakenly mailing an incomplete version of this posting > > earlier. This is the complete one. > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > At 03:25 PM 5/17/97 BST, Dominique THILLAUD wrote: > > > > > > > I know kRta the better and kali the worst, but what about treta and > > >dvApara ? > > > Regards, > > >Dominique > > > > > > > > The names of the dice throws, K.rta TretA, DvApara, and Kali, are associated > > with the descending numerical sequence 4-3-2-1 (like the Pythagorean > > tetraktys). TretA comes from tri (3), and DvApara from dva (2). They are > > obvious cognates of other IE names for the same numbers. K.rta is the past > > passive participle of the root k.r, "to do" (Pisani has a different > > etymology for K.rta that connects it with 4, see Mayrhofer). It means > > "done" and, by extension, "well done" or "good." So K.rta is the winning > > throw, TretA is the next one down, then comes DvApara, and the worst (and > > losing) throw is Kali. Kali means conflict, bad luck; but whether this > > meaning is derived from the dice throw or it informed it, is no perfectly clear. > > These names were used to rate things from good to bad on a descending scale. > > They were so used to name the four yugas, so K.rta became the best one, and > > so on. The 4-3-2-1 sequence became fundamental to the yugas, as they were > > said to last for 4 000, 3 000, 2 000, and 1 000 years respectively; with > > sandhis of 400, 300, 200, and 100 years. The cow of dharma was said to > > stand on 4 feet in K.rta, 3 in TretA, and so on. > > > > If you apply the 4-3-2-1 sequence to the circumference, with its 360 > > degrees, you will get 4 arcs of 144, 108, 72, and 36 degrees respectively. > > This is how the "divine years" of the yugas were turned into "human years," > > as a divine year was said to equal 360 human years. > > So, for example, > > > > K.rta is 4 000 divine yrs. x 360 = 1 440 000 + (144 000 x 2) = 1 728 000 > > human yrs. > > > > 144 000 is one sandhi in human years (400 x 360). > > > > By this procedure the total number of human years in the four yugas is 4 320 > > 000. Take away a few zeros and you have 432 000, which is the duration of > > the Kali yuga. But add zeroes and you get the duration of the kalpa: 4 320 > > 000 000. > > > > 432 000 is a very important number, as it is the result of 120 x 3 600. > > According to the Satapatha BrAhmaNa the Rg Veda has 12 000 verses of 36 > > syllables = 432 000 total. > > > > I hope this helps. > > > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > > University of California, Berkeley > > > > > > ________________________________ > Patricia M. Greer > Department of Religious Studies > Cocke Hall > University of Virginia > Charlottesville, VA 22901 > > > From garzilli at shore.net Mon May 19 08:58:42 1997 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 04:58:42 -0400 Subject: Keris Message-ID: <161227030324.23782.10060730756121478428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Royce Wiles wrote: > > >Could anybody help me in finding a bibliography > >on Indonesian women Keris (its history, technical > >description, use, and social meaning). > > Before I ask my Southeast Asian specialist colleagues about this can I just > confirm that you're asking about the traditional dagger (keris) in this > case one used by women? > > Royce Wiles > Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies > Australian National University > GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA > > Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 > Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 Yes I am asking about that. Thank you, -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli Univ. of Perugia (ITALY) Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india) ************************************************************* From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Mon May 19 13:43:57 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 06:43:57 -0700 Subject: Keris Message-ID: <161227030339.23782.279963245561204145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a brief note (probably well-known amongst specialist, but...) The famous sequence of women dancing with keris in the film TRANCE AND DANCE IN BALI by M. Mead is a bit of a fabrication, as well as history. As Bateson wrote in 1942: "We had seen women dance with krisses at temple festivals at night and had observed that their dancing, though nominally the same as that of the men, was fundamentally different ... we ... suggested ... that they should include in their performance some women with krisses. This they did without any hesitation, but by 1939 the women were an established part of the performance." (Bateson and Mead, 1942, p.167: BALINESE CHARACTER: A PHOTOGRAPHIC ANALYSIS) Peter Claus On Mon, 19 May 1997, Enrica Garzilli wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:38:08 BST > From: Enrica Garzilli > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Keris > > Royce Wiles wrote: > > > > >Could anybody help me in finding a bibliography > > >on Indonesian women Keris (its history, technical > > >description, use, and social meaning). > > > > Before I ask my Southeast Asian specialist colleagues about this can I just > > confirm that you're asking about the traditional dagger (keris) in this > > case one used by women? > > > > Royce Wiles > > Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies > > Australian National University > > GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA > > > > Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 > > Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 > > Yes I am asking about that. > > Thank you, > -- > Dr. Enrica Garzilli > Univ. of Perugia (ITALY) > Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india) > ************************************************************* > > > > From das at netcom.com Mon May 19 13:47:58 1997 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 06:47:58 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030343.23782.10229880269113351277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 May 1997, D.H. Killingley wrote: > Hang on a bit, let's get our elementary maths right before this gets any > further. > > 108 is the cube of 3 multiplied by the _square_ of 2, not the cube of 2. Oops! Meant to say 108 = (3**3) x (2**2) x (1**1), but got mixed up with too many threes. Thanks for pointing it out. das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Mon May 19 13:54:11 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 06:54:11 -0700 Subject: On Tamil Temple stripes Message-ID: <161227030345.23782.12124424711568444738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: May 16, 1997 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Response to Noel Salmond's question re: stripes on Tamil temples. Brenda Beck has an article on this. I believe it is: Beck, Brenda. 1969. "Colour and Heat in South Indian Ritual." Man 4:553-72.. Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From sarin at erols.com Mon May 19 12:30:22 1997 From: sarin at erols.com (sarin at erols.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 08:30:22 -0400 Subject: The Number Nine Message-ID: <161227030335.23782.2920478617198754785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The number nine was of great importance in ancient China as well as it represented the heavenly regions. More recently, in the time of Timur, most royal gifts were made in nines. Did Chinese and Indians discover the mathematical qualities of nine independently, or did ancient central asian tribes take this idea with them wherever they went? Amita Sarin >Das wrote: > >>On Sun, 18 May 1997, Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: >> >>> And what can we make of the fact that the sum of the units >>> in each of these numbers = 9? eg. 1 728 000 = >>> 1+7+2+8=18=1+8=9? This is true of so many of the "indic" >>> numbers we come across -- the japa mala of 108 beads,etc. >>> Are there any specific references to this number in the >>> ancient literature? Or should we look to the 3? >> >>This is NOT a scholarly opinion -- in any sense of that word :-). >>During an idle holiday few years ago, I was fooling around with >>various "indic" numbers, calculations etc. They *seemed* to be >>based on trinary logic. >> >>A rudimentary example is how easy it is to factor numbers - 108 >>is (3**3) x (2**3) -- of course, if you like symmetry and sequences >>you can also multiply that by (1**3)! That would make 3 factors, >>3 numbers in a sequence and 3 cubes. The other number mentioned >>1,728,000 can be trivially split as (2**3) x (3**3) x (2**3) x (10**3). >>[ By the way, "a**b" means "a" raised to the power of "b".] >> >>Bizarre? Certainly. But most numbers that I looked at had the >>"thread of 3", interwoven in it. > >Nice to see some mathematics on this channel! Actually, I think that your >observation is well worth looking into. The number 3 is sacred, and the >ancient Indians (and not only them) had a thing for mystique. Indologists >with an interest in mathematics or numerology might find something of >interest here. One caveat: Beware of drawing uncritical solutions! > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Mon May 19 14:13:41 1997 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 09:13:41 -0500 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030348.23782.16919610740106725818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a > >sum of 9 as well. > > Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 Yes, but 9 + 9 = 18: 1 + 8 = 9 -- true the sum only comes when once removed, but still the general principle of Das is not disproved. As long as numerology occupies Indology, are there any Middle Vedic resources on such symmetries? jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. > > >Since all of the numbers mentioned are products of > >360, which is 9x40, they will all be multiples of 9. > > A number that has 9 as the sum of its digits will be a multiple of 9 > but it doesn't necessarily go the other way (as the example above shows). > > > > > > > > From downingg at is2.nyu.edu Mon May 19 13:42:51 1997 From: downingg at is2.nyu.edu (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 09:42:51 -0400 Subject: Nines (Was Re: yuga, VarNa and colour) Message-ID: <161227030340.23782.11492270008379020958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:18 PM 5/19/97 BST, you (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (Jacob Baltuch)) wrote: >>Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a >>sum of 9 as well. > >Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 > I think what was meant was that if you start with 99, then 9 + 9 = 18 and 1 + 8 = 9. I.e., supposedly all numbers that are multiples of nine will "add down" to nine if you make sums of their component digits till you get to a single-digit number. But I do not know anything remotely like enough math theory to say that this is true in all cases, or if so why. As long as I'm on for a moment, I suspect the important thing (culture-historically) about nine might be its status as a cube of three and maybe its status as the proportion between cycles of moon/menstruation and the average human gestation period. Three is connected to this aspect of nine in that sexual reproduction involves three (two parents and a child; "and baby makes three" as the old song goes). That is the case anyway in Chap. 14 of Joyce's Ulysses, set in a maternity hospital, where threes and nines figure prominently. The neoplatonist Plotinus's Enneads (from the Greek for nine) is a treatise of philosophical and metaphysical analysis set up in nine books. Etc.... Greg Downing/NYU greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Sun May 18 23:59:33 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 09:59:33 +1000 Subject: Keris Message-ID: <161227030322.23782.15177656013398843269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Could anybody help me in finding a bibliography >on Indonesian women Keris (its history, technical >description, use, and social meaning). Before I ask my Southeast Asian specialist colleagues about this can I just confirm that you're asking about the traditional dagger (keris) in this case one used by women? Royce Wiles Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 From pdb1 at columbia.edu Mon May 19 14:05:23 1997 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 10:05:23 -0400 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030347.23782.11695182345723762510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a > >sum of 9 as well. > > Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 > A number that has 9 as the sum of its digits will be a multiple of 9 > but it doesn't necessarily go the other way (as the example above shows). But the _ultimate_ sum will always be 9. That is, if the sum of the digits iteslf consists of more than one digit (like 18 in Jacob's example), add _those_ digits, and repeat the procedure until you're down to a single digit. That digit will always be 9. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From stone_catend at compuserve.com Mon May 19 14:31:12 1997 From: stone_catend at compuserve.com (Anthony P Stone) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 10:31:12 -0400 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030350.23782.7402240956006111487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 5/19/97, 2:05 PM, Jacob Baltuch wrote: >>Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a >>sum of 9 as well. >Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 You have to go on adding digits until a single-digit number is obtained, then it is true. Tony Stone From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon May 19 09:08:51 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 11:08:51 +0200 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030332.23782.550657982229176734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Das wrote: >On Sun, 18 May 1997, Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: > >> And what can we make of the fact that the sum of the units >> in each of these numbers = 9? eg. 1 728 000 = >> 1+7+2+8=18=1+8=9? This is true of so many of the "indic" >> numbers we come across -- the japa mala of 108 beads,etc. >> Are there any specific references to this number in the >> ancient literature? Or should we look to the 3? > >This is NOT a scholarly opinion -- in any sense of that word :-). >During an idle holiday few years ago, I was fooling around with >various "indic" numbers, calculations etc. They *seemed* to be >based on trinary logic. > >A rudimentary example is how easy it is to factor numbers - 108 >is (3**3) x (2**3) -- of course, if you like symmetry and sequences >you can also multiply that by (1**3)! That would make 3 factors, >3 numbers in a sequence and 3 cubes. The other number mentioned >1,728,000 can be trivially split as (2**3) x (3**3) x (2**3) x (10**3). >[ By the way, "a**b" means "a" raised to the power of "b".] > >Bizarre? Certainly. But most numbers that I looked at had the >"thread of 3", interwoven in it. Nice to see some mathematics on this channel! Actually, I think that your observation is well worth looking into. The number 3 is sacred, and the ancient Indians (and not only them) had a thing for mystique. Indologists with an interest in mathematics or numerology might find something of interest here. One caveat: Beware of drawing uncritical solutions! Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk Mon May 19 10:20:09 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 11:20:09 +0100 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030333.23782.9562822774806010955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hang on a bit, let's get our elementary maths right before this gets any further. 108 is the cube of 3 multiplied by the _square_ of 2, not the cube of 2. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Mon, 19 May 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Das wrote: > > >On Sun, 18 May 1997, Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: > > > >> And what can we make of the fact that the sum of the units > >> in each of these numbers = 9? eg. 1 728 000 = > >> 1+7+2+8=18=1+8=9? This is true of so many of the "indic" > >> numbers we come across -- the japa mala of 108 beads,etc. > >> Are there any specific references to this number in the > >> ancient literature? Or should we look to the 3? > > > >This is NOT a scholarly opinion -- in any sense of that word :-). > >During an idle holiday few years ago, I was fooling around with > >various "indic" numbers, calculations etc. They *seemed* to be > >based on trinary logic. > > > >A rudimentary example is how easy it is to factor numbers - 108 > >is (3**3) x (2**3) -- of course, if you like symmetry and sequences > >you can also multiply that by (1**3)! That would make 3 factors, > >3 numbers in a sequence and 3 cubes. The other number mentioned > >1,728,000 can be trivially split as (2**3) x (3**3) x (2**3) x (10**3). > >[ By the way, "a**b" means "a" raised to the power of "b".] > > > >Bizarre? Certainly. But most numbers that I looked at had the > >"thread of 3", interwoven in it. > > Nice to see some mathematics on this channel! Actually, I think that your > observation is well worth looking into. The number 3 is sacred, and the > ancient Indians (and not only them) had a thing for mystique. Indologists > with an interest in mathematics or numerology might find something of > interest here. One caveat: Beware of drawing uncritical solutions! > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > > Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no > Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > > > From pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu Mon May 19 18:31:45 1997 From: pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 11:31:45 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030356.23782.12067330241490712008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, according to my rather un-mathematical head, 11 * 9 = 99, 9 + 9 = 18, 1 + 8 = 9. It seems to be a pretty unbeatable "rule." On Mon, 19 May 1997 14:11:00 BST Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a > >sum of 9 as well. > > Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 > > >Since all of the numbers mentioned are products of > >360, which is 9x40, they will all be multiples of 9. > > A number that has 9 as the sum of its digits will be a multiple of 9 > but it doesn't necessarily go the other way (as the example above shows). > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Mon May 19 18:39:18 1997 From: wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (wart) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 12:39:18 -0600 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030361.23782.1525150659270771178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> email: wart at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca On Mon, 19 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a > >sum of 9 as well. > > Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 > > >Since all of the numbers mentioned are products of > >360, which is 9x40, they will all be multiples of 9. > > A number that has 9 as the sum of its digits will be a multiple of 9 > but it doesn't necessarily go the other way (as the example above shows). > > > The sums have to be calculated repeatedly until a single digit results. That is 9 x 11 = 99. 9 + 9 = 18. 1 + 8 = 9. I beleive this was the method originally mentioned in this thread. David Allen Edmonton, Canada From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Mon May 19 19:45:33 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 12:45:33 -0700 Subject: mathematics ? Message-ID: <161227030363.23782.8574555573766693657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ok, Surely 7 is NOT a sacred number, Dominique. (Actually a ruse to get you to "proof it is 'sacred', and "predict my future and show it is linked to a fundamental physical constant." Great fun! Last time I encountered this was in a touristy area of Delhi and I had to shell out Rs.50 to write down a number (1-100) on a slip of paper. But it was well worth it for the next half hour of entertainment. The guy was a marvellous "mathematician".) On Mon, 19 May 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:39:31 BST > From: "Dominique.Thillaud" > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: mathematics ? > > At 11:46 +0200 19/05/97, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >Nice to see some mathematics on this channel! Actually, I think that your > >observation is well worth looking into. The number 3 is sacred, and the > >ancient Indians (and not only them) had a thing for mystique. Indologists > >with an interest in mathematics or numerology might find something of > >interest here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I'm sorry but that's not mathematics, just elementary arithmetic > and the numerology is a pseudo-science without any rapport with mathematics. > Mathematics in India are represented by many very good scholars, as > RAghavan NarasiMhan from Bombay, laureat of the Fields Medal (the eqivalent > of the Nobel for the mathematicians). > The combinations of few arithmetical operators with any numbers are > so numerous that we can find easily many 'miraculous' properties. > Give me any number and in few time I'll proof it is 'sacred', I'll > predict your future and show it is linked to a fundamental physical > constant. > Else I'll pay you 10 $ for an akvavit to my health! > Friendly, > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > > > From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Mon May 19 04:13:00 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 14:13:00 +1000 Subject: Keris Message-ID: <161227030326.23782.15206796063574425012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli asked >> >Could anybody help me in finding a bibliography >> >on Indonesian women Keris (its history, technical >> >description, use, and social meaning). The best person to ask about the keris is Bromwen Solyom (brons at hawaii.edu) at the University of Hawaii, she and her husband have made intensive studies of the keris. (I think its nice to stretch Indology's coverage a little now and then.) Royce Wiles Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Mon May 19 12:31:03 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 14:31:03 +0200 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030337.23782.5505541548322117239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a >sum of 9 as well. Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 >Since all of the numbers mentioned are products of >360, which is 9x40, they will all be multiples of 9. A number that has 9 as the sum of its digits will be a multiple of 9 but it doesn't necessarily go the other way (as the example above shows). From astgmb at luff.latrobe.edu.au Mon May 19 04:40:56 1997 From: astgmb at luff.latrobe.edu.au (astgmb at luff.latrobe.edu.au) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 14:40:56 +1000 Subject: Ganesha Purana manuscripts in Kashmir of Nepal Message-ID: <161227030330.23782.3829775926869812720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all members of the List, I am presently working on a translation of the Uttara Khanda of the Ganesha Purana, using three printed editions and five manuscripts. The latter are from Poona and Madras. A comprehensive search of manuscript catalogues reveals that no manuscript is to be found further North than Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh or West Bengal. Is anyone aware of the existence of such manuscripts in Kashmir or Nepal. If such exist it is posssible that they may be older than the oldest (1745ACE) manuscript I am presently using. With best wishes, Greg Bailey From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Mon May 19 21:58:23 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 14:58:23 -0700 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030370.23782.5468791350288352508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Messrs Thillaud and Fosse write: >From: "Dominique.Thillaud" >To: Members of the list >Subject: mathematics ? >At 11:46 +0200 19/05/97, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>Nice to see some mathematics on this channel! Actually, I think that your >>observation is well worth looking into. The number 3 is sacred, and the --------------- >>ancient Indians had a thing about mystique. Two things: 1. If the number 3 is sacred i.e. concept of Trinity, Shiva is three eyed ,etc,it must be remembered that in conventional Indian folk wisdom, the number 3 also has negative connotations i.e. the vanavaasa of Rama, Lakshmana and Seeta become so complicated because there were three of them involved or the family of Ravana, Vibhisana and Soorphanaka came to grief because there were they were three of them . This is also reflected in the Hindi saying "Teen Tigaada,Kaam Bigaada" i.e. Anything with three people involved in it is going to be unsucessful. According to Vaastu Shastra, a house that is built on a triangular shaped plot of land (Trikon~a) brings the occupants nothing but grief. In other words, if there is a sacred interpretation, there exists an evil aspect/ interpretation to the number three. 2. I get the impression that Dr Lars Martin Fosse implies that there is something special ONLY about the number three. IF this is what ------------ he intended, I would like to say that the ancient Hindus seemed to have had a mystical interpretation for every postive integer i.e. 1 represents God, 2 represents any God and his/her consort i.e. Parvatiparameshvarau, Seetaramau, Lakshminarayanau , 3 represents the Trinity, 4 represents the 4 Yugas, 5 represents the Panchabhootas, 6 represents the Shadrtu( 6 seasons) and the worship of 6 dieties( according to Shankaracarya), 7 represents the Saptarshi( 7 sages)...........ad infinitum. The point I am trying to make is that any postive integer can be interpreted mystically/linked to a fact of nature. The mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan is supposed to lectured once on the mystical significance of the number series 2**n -1, where n is a positive integer. His claim was that one can derive all important aspects of Bhuloka from this number series. > Mathematics in India are represented by many very good scholars, as >RAghavan NarasiMhan from Bombay, laureat of the Fields Medal (the eqivalent >of the Nobel for the mathematicians). Isn't Dr M.S.Narasimhan of the TIFR also into the same kind of thing? Dr M.S. Narasimhan, from what I remember, also got the Fields MEdal and the Padma Bhushan a few years ago. Some other poster said something about the no 7 not being mystically important....Well on the auspicious side, you have the Saptarshi and the Sapta Samudra... I don't think that there is any negative aspect attached to this number, excepting in Andhra Pradesh where the number 7 ( pronounced as "Edu") sounds pretty much like the verb Edu( to weep). I was told that this is a reason for some people going out of their way to avoid using the word "seven" during a Subhakaaryam( i.e. auspicious occasion). With all this talk about mathematics, what is a single word for "Unmathematical" ( i.e. adj) in Skt?...probably desribes me, I guess:-) Krishna --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu Mon May 19 23:16:02 1997 From: jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu (jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 15:16:02 -0800 Subject: time to meet? Message-ID: <161227030372.23782.896063930870603718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Peter, I am finally able to stick my head above water briefly and so I am taking the opportunity to write. I hope you remember the brief conversation we had at the Tamil conference about the possibility of doing one of my MA field exams in South Asian folklore? Can we meet sometime next week to talk about this? Any of the following days will work for me: Monday (5/26), Wed (5/28) or Thurs (5/29) in the afternoon (1Pm to 3Pm). Would one of these times work for you? Jeyanthy From thillaud at unice.fr Mon May 19 14:06:54 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 16:06:54 +0200 Subject: mathematics ? Message-ID: <161227030352.23782.8251867155892240591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:46 +0200 19/05/97, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Nice to see some mathematics on this channel! Actually, I think that your >observation is well worth looking into. The number 3 is sacred, and the >ancient Indians (and not only them) had a thing for mystique. Indologists >with an interest in mathematics or numerology might find something of >interest here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm sorry but that's not mathematics, just elementary arithmetic and the numerology is a pseudo-science without any rapport with mathematics. Mathematics in India are represented by many very good scholars, as RAghavan NarasiMhan from Bombay, laureat of the Fields Medal (the eqivalent of the Nobel for the mathematicians). The combinations of few arithmetical operators with any numbers are so numerous that we can find easily many 'miraculous' properties. Give me any number and in few time I'll proof it is 'sacred', I'll predict your future and show it is linked to a fundamental physical constant. Else I'll pay you 10 $ for an akvavit to my health! Friendly, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From athr at loc.gov Mon May 19 20:09:21 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 16:09:21 -0400 Subject: H-ASIA: Q. Peacock throne and huma bird Message-ID: <161227030365.23782.5856617178353632389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell when the idea that the huma never alights appears? Europe had the notion that the Birds of Paradise (found in New Guinea), and it acquired this idea because the feet were removed from the skins that were sent back from New Guinea. I presume the idea therefore is after Columbus and Da Gama. Could the idea the Islamic huma never ceases flying therefore come from Europe, or from the Birds of Pariadise skins? Also, I own a twentieth century miniature from Jammu and Kashmir of Vishnu on his bird vehicle Garuda in which Garuda has no legs. I have never seen another on which this is true. Has anyone else? Garuda _is_ traditionally depicted as alighting, e.g. in the Mahabharata. Allen W. Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. On Mon, 19 May 1997, Frank Conlon wrote: > H-ASIA > May 19, 1997 > > Query on peacock throne and the huma bird (previously on symbolism of > peacock throne in Qing dynasty) > *************************************************************************** > From: Kate Brittlebank > > I have been following this thread with interest. I am wondering if there > is a link in the symbolism of Islamic kingship between the peacock and the > mythical bird, the huma. I believe the latter has its origins in Iran but > it was certainly used in India as a royal symbol, at least by Muslim > rulers. It was said that the huma flew continuously (i.e. never landed) > and that kingship was conferred on whomever its shadow fell. Royal thrones > sometimes had the huma as a sort of canopy (or chatr), for obvious reasons. > Tipu Sultan's throne is a good example. > > > > Dr Kate Brittlebank > School of History > University of New South Wales > Sydney, NSW 2052 > Australia > > Tel: 61-2-9385-1630 > Fax: 61-2-9385-1251 > ========================================================================= > To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: > > For holidays or short absences send post to: > with message: > SET H-ASIA NOMAIL > Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL > H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ > From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Tue May 20 00:10:28 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 16:10:28 -0800 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030374.23782.5712745286473165206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Krishna wrote: > > > > he intended, I would like to say that the ancient Hindus seemed to > have had a mystical interpretation for every postive integer i.e. > 1 represents God, 2 represents any God and his/her consort i.e. > Parvatiparameshvarau, Seetaramau, Lakshminarayanau , 3 represents > the Trinity, 4 represents the 4 Yugas, 5 represents the Panchabhootas, 6 > represents the Shadrtu( 6 seasons) and the > worship of 6 dieties( according to Shankaracarya), 7 represents > the Saptarshi( 7 sages)...........ad infinitum. The point I am trying > to make is that any postive integer can be interpreted > mystically/linked to a fact of nature. The mathematician Srinivasa > Ramanujan is supposed to lectured once on the mystical significance of > the number series 2**n -1, where n is a positive > integer. His claim was that one can derive all important aspects > of Bhuloka from this number series. If there is one number that can be called the mystical number supreme in India, it is SUnya = 0. Whole philosophies in Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Jainism, etc. are constructed around this number and concept. At the recent Seminar on SUnya (Feb. 97) held by INSA and IGNCA in New Delhi, the topic was explored in depth and many interesting papers were presented. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From mgansten at sbbs.se Mon May 19 15:07:53 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:07:53 +0200 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030354.23782.17924453892157046153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: >>Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a >>sum of 9 as well. > >Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 But if you proceed to add the digits until you're left with one, it *is* true: 99 = 9 + 9 = 18 = 1 + 8 = 9 Martin Gansten From downingg at is2.nyu.edu Mon May 19 21:09:59 1997 From: downingg at is2.nyu.edu (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:09:59 -0400 Subject: Max Mueller on Vedic etc. Religion Message-ID: <161227030367.23782.10846342930255149196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I signed up a couple weeks back for the Indology list and have since been lurking, trying to get a sense of what the expertise level is so I don't sound too silly in posting as a non-expert. (I'm a literature, linguistics, and cultural-history specialist at New York University.) In writing a series of articles about James Joyce's background in later 19C ideas about language, I've looked into the work of Friedrich Max Mueller. I know from reading what's available about him that he is basically written about these days *in India*, and as a pioneer of scholarly Indology outside India. My interest is not mainly his work on India though I am fairly familiar with it at this point, despite its bulk. My concern is with his writings on language, and on culture and myth/religion as encapsulated and conveyed by language -- see for example his _Lectures on the Science of Lang._ (first ed. 1863). What I think some on the Indology list might have comments on is MM's particular way of interpreting the early religion of India. Of course it is long outdated. Given the rather sweeping breadth of his theorizing and also given the controveries in which he was involved in his lifetime (plus what has been written about him -- mainly in India -- in the 20C), one has the impression that he was rather a Joseph Campbell figure in some ways: generalizing about world-scale religious and cultural patterns and tendencies in ways that go beyond the solid evidence in pursuit of a kind of speculative synthesis. What I'd like to know is how inaccurate (somewhat wildly inaccurate? ridiculously inaccurate?) his ideas look in the context of "the state of knowledge" about Vedic etc. religion today. MM sees myth/religion as the result of the way in which ancient people used language. They talked about things like dawn and day and sun and brightness, and because those phenomena were seen as so imporant in their effects on the world and on people, they were personified into agents and thus became divinities, especially as language changed and words that formerly were common nouns came to have different meanings, leaving older forms of common nouns to be seen as proper names only (names of divinities). I could cite hundreds of examples from dozens of books and book-chapters in MM's vast corpus, but so as not to tax the list's patience let me focus on part of one line of argument. Lectures IX - XII in Vol. 2 of the 1873 edition of _Lectures on the Sci of Lang_ are on mythology. At the end of Lecture IX, MM argues that the great thing about the Rigveda (of which he was the first to do a printed edition of course), from the perspective of "comparative mythology," is that many of the names of divinities are clearly still common nouns, thus Agni/fire (Latin ignis), Marut/storm, Saranyu/dawn, etc. He argues the the vedic hymns are a good place to see these common nouns turning into personified and anthropomorphized divinities (last page of Lecture IX). After discussing Dyaus/Dyu/Zeus/Jupiter/Tyr as the same basic apotheosis of thunder in Lecture X, MM focuses in Lecture XI on Dawn/light/brightness as associated with fertility and prosperity etc. He equates Sanskrit Sarama with Greek Hermes linguistically (root sar, to go) and argues against connecting Sarama with storm(s) or dog(s) at least Sarama's earliest stages of development. He also argues that Sarama = Greek Helene and interprets stories about Helene on that basis. He quotes from various loci in the Rigveda and Sayana's commentary on Rigveda a myth about the stealing and returning of cows involving Sarama. MM argues that the cows are rays of the sun which are robbed by night and brought back by dawn. He interprets the siege of Troy over Helen(e) as the same story, the west besieging the light of the sun. Etc.... I could certainly cite in more detail, but the process MM argues for is clear enough I sauppose (??). MM sees ancient language as a process whereby common nouns metaphorically become divinities, and the most important divinities as far as MM are concerned are solar (dawn, sun, light, etc., with cattle as one aspect of this -- the rays of the sun as its cattle/herd). It seems pretty reductive and convenient -- but I am only speaking as a nonexpert from the angle of you sophisticated practitioners of late-20C Indology. What I'm looking for is what (if anything) **stands up** of these kinds of MM theories. I can give more detail on these theories if that would help, or I can give other examples. Believe me, there is a ***LOT*** of this kind of material in MM's work. It's relevant to my work on Joyce (see the top of this post) because Chap 14 of Ulysses involves a transformation of the Cattle of the Sun story from Homer's Odyssey into the story of a birth at a maternity hospital. That's where MM and his analyses of language and culture and myth and solar religion and fertility/prosperity might come in. I'm certainly not arguing for MM's ideas as scientific. I am soliciting input as to how problematic the idea of Vedic religion as solar (and bovine) in MM's mode might look as of 1997 -- or any other comments or queries about anything I've mentioned above. Looking forward to any input or references, onlist or offist as people wish. Greg Downing/NYU greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From thillaud at unice.fr Mon May 19 15:21:59 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:21:59 +0200 Subject: The Number Nine Message-ID: <161227030369.23782.3383488575061510549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:43 +0200 19/05/97, Sarin wrote: >The number nine was of great importance in ancient China as well as it >represented the heavenly regions. More recently, in the time of Timur, >most royal gifts were made in nines. Did Chinese and Indians discover the >mathematical qualities of nine independently, or did ancient central asian >tribes take this idea with them wherever they went? Are Egyptians a central asian tribe ? They count the Gods by enneads. Existence of numeration systems in the oldest known documents show us arithmetic is extremely old. Surely before Chinese was Chinese and Indians was Indians. Surely mill-games are too very old (see the very elaborate wei-ki in China) and the smallest, the tic-tac-toe, has nine intersections. And the making of nets and baskets generates many squares. The simplest games need an odd number of plays to give a winner, &c. I believe improbable that any of the civilizations known today be the 'inventor' of the small numbers and of their elementary properties. Using stone tools and living in caves is not a proof of stupidity. And Lucy is a very very old woman ... Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue May 20 00:56:21 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:56:21 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030377.23782.1459640529889579354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The numbers for the yugas and for some of the calculations in the Vedas concerning numbers of syllables are related because they are ultimately based on the sexagesimal system. From the moment the circumference is considered to have 360 degrees (with each degree = 60 minutes), and the ideal year is said to have 360 days, many calculations will be sexagesimal. So the number of minutes in half the circumference is: 180 degrees x 60' = 10 800. And the number of minutes in the entire circumference = 21 600, one of whose powers of ten equals both sandhis for the TretA yuga. Some old measures of time have the same structure. A nADikA is equal to half a muhUrta, and the year has 10 800 muhUrtas, so each day has 60 nADikAs, just as each degree has 60 minutes. So, if a year has 10 800 muhUrtas then PrajApati's altar is made up of 10 800 bricks because he symbolizes the year. The Rg Veda is said by the Satapatha BrAhmaNa to also have 10 800 pankti verses of 40 syllables, so 10 800 x 40 = 432 000. And the Satapatha BrahmaNa still adds that 10 800 is the number of times a person inhales and exhales in a day and a night. And so many other things are related to 18, 108, 10 800, etc. I have dealt at length with this in a book, but it's in Spanish. In case anyone is interested the ref. is: Tiempo ciclico y eras del mundo en la India, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann. Mexico: El Colegio de Mexico, 1988. All these sexagesimal calculations can then, of course, be compared to Mesopotamian ones, so it comes as no surprise that according to the Chaldean priest Berossus, the total number of years of the kingdoms before the deluge is 432 000. Some of these things have been discussed by Burgess, Fleet, J. Filliozat, van der Waerden, Pingree and others. AS for the number 9. The MahAbhArata has a numerical connection with 18 (9 x 2): 18 chapters in the epic and in the GItA, 18 days of war, and so on. But the RAmAyaNa prefers the number 14 (7 x 2). Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue May 20 00:56:32 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:56:32 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030375.23782.10250686842297260580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:50 PM 5/18/97 BST, Beatrice Reusch wrote: >Mayrhofer says Pisani's reconstruction does not agree with known >phonological laws. That's right. >Yet doesn't some of the Skt. literature refer to the yuga sequence also in >a different way at times? I mean, instead of 4-3-2-1 for k.rta, etc. there >would be the first yuga (k.rta), the second (tretA), etc. Well, yes, KRta comes first and TretA comes second, but the names don't refer to their order, they refer to their "value:" from best (4) to worst (1); from whole to incomplete, from long to short, from dharmic to adharmic. > If I remember >correctly, in one of your own previous posts there was a MBh quote that >inverted the colors of the second and third yuga. In this kind of account >of the yuga sequence, of course, the names tretA (etymologically connected >with 3) and dvApara (etymologically connected with 2) are in metathesis, so >to speak. The colors are inverted, but not the order of the yugas. >What's the logic behind one and the other accounts of the yuga sequence? The usual logic is precisely the 4-3-2-1 sequence, most likely derived from the dice throws. The 4-3-2-1 sequence was not always part of the system. The Yuga PurANa, which dates to around the early centuries BCE-CE, uses a decimal arrangement for the length of life in each yuga, and to the astronomer AryabhaTTa the four yugas were of equal length, divided into an ascending and a descending half, like in the Jain cycles. He still uses 432 000 000 for the four yuga cycle, so each equal yuga contains 1 080 000 years. Best, Luis From jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu Tue May 20 02:04:48 1997 From: jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu (jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 18:04:48 -0800 Subject: time to meet? (please delete this thread) Message-ID: <161227030379.23782.8390219917691603098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops... My apologies to everyone on the list. Jeyanthy Siva South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley jsiva at uclinik3.berkeley.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We who seek justice will have to do justice to others - Gandhi From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Tue May 20 01:18:47 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 18:18:47 -0700 Subject: A correction Message-ID: <161227030380.23782.5755310552546737545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi! This message is w.r.t my earlier posting( Posted on the evening of the 19th)....when I said integer, I meant positive number i.e. 2**n -1 where n is an integer should be interprested as 2**n-1 where n is a positive number. I believe that the mistake has occured in two different places. I apologize for the confusion Krishna --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Mon May 19 16:40:56 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 18:40:56 +0200 Subject: Nines (Was Re: yuga, VarNa and colour) Message-ID: <161227030357.23782.11233606872485218866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 02:18 PM 5/19/97 BST, you (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (Jacob Baltuch)) wrote: >>>Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a >>>sum of 9 as well. >> >>Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 >> > >I think what was meant was that if you start with 99, then 9 + 9 = 18 and 1 >+ 8 = 9. I.e., supposedly all numbers that are multiples of nine will "add >down" to nine if you make sums of their component digits till you get to a >single-digit number. That is true, because the sum of the digits of a number that's a multiple of 9 will also be a multiple of 9 (not too hard to see by induction, assume true for N = 9 * p and prove for N + 9) and (except in cases of one digit numbers) that sum will be (strictly) smaller than the number itself. Doing that again and again you'll have to go thru smaller and smaller numbers which are multiples of 9 and you'll end up hitting a one digit number which is a multiple of 9 and there aren't very many choices there. So ok the statement is accurate if you replace "the sum of decimal digits of a multiple of 9 is 9" by "the sum of digits of a multiple of 9 is a multiple of 9" From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Mon May 19 17:49:43 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 19:49:43 +0200 Subject: Nines (Was Re: yuga, VarNa and colour) Message-ID: <161227030359.23782.17277267725595597114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>I think what was meant was that if you start with 99, then 9 + 9 = 18 and 1 >>+ 8 = 9. I.e., supposedly all numbers that are multiples of nine will "add >>down" to nine if you make sums of their component digits till you get to a >>single-digit number. > >That is true, because the sum of the digits of a number that's a multiple >of 9 will also be a multiple of 9 (not too hard to see by induction, assume >true for N = 9 * p and prove for N + 9) I'm sorry, don't try this at home :) By trying to keep things simple I'm afraid I made things more complicated. If you accept to talk about remainders, it's much easier: the remainder of (a0 + ... + aN * 10^N) by 9 is the same as the remainder of a0 + ... + aN by 9, the proof of which is very easy. From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue May 20 03:09:10 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Mon, 19 May 97 23:09:10 -0400 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030382.23782.11237630543255532741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna wrote: I don't think that there is any negative aspect attached to this number, excepting in Andhra Pradesh where the number 7 (pronounced as "Edu") sounds pretty much like the verb Edu (to weep). I was told that this is a reason for some people going out of their way to avoid using the word "seven" during a Subhakaaryam (i.e. auspicious occasion). Tyagaraja does this in his kriti in Arabhi "nAda sudhA rasambilanu"... he says "svaramulu yARoka ghaNTalu"... i.e. the 6+1 svaras are bells (tied on the kodaNDa - Rama's bow - which is the glorious rAga). -Srini. From chibbard at pobox.upenn.edu Tue May 20 11:24:10 1997 From: chibbard at pobox.upenn.edu (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 07:24:10 -0400 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030387.23782.9120716410642475166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: > > >Actually the digits of any number that is a multiple of 9 will have a > >sum of 9 as well. > > Not true: 9 * 11 = 99 > > >Since all of the numbers mentioned are products of > >360, which is 9x40, they will all be multiples of 9. > > A number that has 9 as the sum of its digits will be a multiple of 9 > but it doesn't necessarily go the other way (as the example above shows). Read: a number that has 9, or a multiple of nine, as the sum of its digits will be a multiple of nine. Elliot M. Stern From mgansten at sbbs.se Tue May 20 06:13:50 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 08:13:50 +0200 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030384.23782.7835636774571667024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >The colors are inverted, but not the order of the yugas. There does seem to exist an idea of Dvapara and Treta changing places, though, as I recall from reading certain commentaries on Bhagavata Purana. (I believe the words giving rise to this interpretation were 1.4.14: "dvaapare samanupraapte t.rtiiye yugaparyaye...") Martin Gansten From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue May 20 08:48:16 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 10:48:16 +0200 Subject: mathematics ? Message-ID: <161227030385.23782.14898779942106961720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique wrote: >At 11:46 +0200 19/05/97, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>Nice to see some mathematics on this channel! Actually, I think that your >>observation is well worth looking into. The number 3 is sacred, and the >>ancient Indians (and not only them) had a thing for mystique. Indologists >>with an interest in mathematics or numerology might find something of >>interest here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I'm sorry but that's not mathematics, just elementary arithmetic >and the numerology is a pseudo-science without any rapport with mathematics. Very well! I thought arithmetic was a branch of mathematics, I apologize for my ignorance. > The combinations of few arithmetical operators with any numbers are >so numerous that we can find easily many 'miraculous' properties. That may be a good reason to investigate them! Even if we think such properties are trivial, the ancients may not have thought so. > Give me any number and in few time I'll proof it is 'sacred', I'll >predict your future and show it is linked to a fundamental physical >constant. I thought it might be.... Actually, the question is not what modern people think about numerology (there are some who believe in it), but what people thought in ancient times. As for "sacred" numbers, in Indo-European cultures there are the numbers 3, 7 and 9 that are all invested with special meanings. 7 represents the orifices of the head, 9 the orifices of the whole body. Read Eric Pirart's paper on the subject which I quoted a few emails ago! > Else I'll pay you 10 $ for an akvavit to my health! Unhappily, due to the exorbitant prices on alcohol in Norway, there is little Aquavit to be had for 10 dollars. (You may at best get 4 cl in a restaurant). But I always cherish the thought of an Aquavit, and as we say here: It is the thought that counts! Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue May 20 20:17:06 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 13:17:06 -0700 Subject: mathematics ? Message-ID: <161227030392.23782.9086731196730361523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:41 PM 5/19/97 BST, Dominique Thillaud wrote: > I'm sorry but that's not mathematics, just elementary arithmetic >and the numerology is a pseudo-science without any rapport with mathematics. Well, it depends on how you look at it. Mathematics used to be often associated with mysticism, just as astronomy and astrology were usually part of the same study. Pythagoras attributed symbolical meaning to numbers; would you say he was not a mathematician? Skol, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Tue May 20 13:18:54 1997 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 15:18:54 +0200 Subject: Confs: Indoarian, Iranian and IE-Studies Message-ID: <161227030389.23782.11902573751105491242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This posting is going out to the Linguist-list, the IE-List, the HISTLING-list and to the Indology-list; apologies to those who will get it twice (thrice!). -------------- http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/curric/erl-97.html -------------- Arbeitstagung der Indogermanischen Gesellschaft Das Tagungsthema lautet: Indoarisch, Iranisch und die Indogermanistik. Erlangen, vom 2. bis zum 4. Oktober 1997 FRIEDRICH-ALEXANDER-UNIVERSITDT Bureau/Contacting Address: Institut f|r Vergleichende Indogermanische Sprachwissenschaft Kochstra_e 4 D-91054 Erlangen-N|rnberg Tel: +49-9131-85-9376 oder -85-2404 Fax: +49-9131-85-6390 email: p2indog at phil.uni-erlangen.de 1st circular / Erstes Rundschreiben - Bitte weiterleiten und bekanntmachen! - Vom 2. bis zum 4. Oktober 1997 soll in Erlangen eine Arbeitstagung der Indogermanischen Gesellschaft stattfinden. Das Tagungsthema lautet: Indoarisch, Iranisch und die Indogermanistik. Zu dieser Tagung laden wir die Mitglieder und andere Interessenten herzlich ein. Folgende Hauptvortrdge |ber Sondergebiete sind bereits vereinbart: Religion des Rigveda (T. Oberlies, Freiburg i.B.); Vedische Schulen und Texte (K. Klaus, Bochum); Mittelindoarisch (O. von Hin|ber, Freiburg i.B.); Akkadisch der Achaimenidenzeit (K.H. Kessler, Erlangen); Mittelpersisch (G. Klingenschmitt, Regensburg). Um die Anmeldung von Kurzvortrdgen (20 Minuten) zum Tagungsthema wird gebeten. Wir hoffen, da_ auch zahlreiche junge Fachgenossen als ortragende und Zuhvrer teilnehmen, und bitten, alle Vortrdge entsprechend zu gestalten. Bitte senden Sie den anhdngenden Abschnitt bis zum 15. April 1997 ausgef|llt an die obige Anschrift. Alle, die sich anmelden, erhalten anschlie_end eine Bestdtigung, das zweite Rundschreiben mit dem vorldufigen Programm und die Unterlagen des Erlanger Verkehrsb|ros. Dessen Anschrift lautet: Verkehrsverein Erlangen e.V., Rathausplatz 1, 91052 Erlangen (Tel.: 09131 / 8951-0; Fax: 8951-51). Vielleicht wird es mvglich sein, einige Studenten in einfachen Quartieren unterzubringen. Die Tagungsgeb|hr in Hvhe von DM 40.- mvge bei der Anmeldung auf folgendes Konto eingezahlt werden: Sparkasse Erlangen 34-123331, BLZ 763 500 00 (Bernhard Forssman; Kennwort "Arbeitstagung"). Teilnehmer aus den fr|heren sozialistischen Staaten, Studenten und Arbeitslose sind von der Zahlung befreit. Bernhard Forssman - Johanna Narten - Robert Plath ___________________________________________________________________ ANMELDUNG An der Arbeitstagung "Indoarisch, Iranisch und die Indogermanistik" in Erlangen, 2.-4.10.1997, nehme ich teil. Ich melde einen Kurzvortrag (20 Minuten) |ber folgendes Thema an: Ich bitte, den Vortrag auf folgenden Tag zu legen: 2./3./4.10.1997 (Bitte nur bei Bedarf unterstreichen). (F|r Studenten:) Mir ist an einer einfachen Unterbringung gelegen: Ja / Nein. Name und Anschrift: Telefon: Telefax: E-mail: From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at Tue May 20 13:45:28 1997 From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 15:45:28 +0200 Subject: nine Message-ID: <161227030391.23782.16801088205151183209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For what it is worth, according to Gonda (Aspects of Early Visnuism, p. 94) nine is prominent in Visnuism. It is also associated with Visnu in the Buddhist *Potalagamanamaargapattrikaa (Tucci, "Buddhist Notes: I. A Propos Avalokte"svara", p.184, M?langes chinois et bouddhiques 9). Max Nihom, Vienna From kharimot at sas.upenn.edu Tue May 20 21:13:44 1997 From: kharimot at sas.upenn.edu (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 17:13:44 -0400 Subject: Nines (Was Re: yuga, VarNa and colour) Message-ID: <161227030394.23782.15792102582752084751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I remember having learnt the proof for this (that any number divisible by 9 has its sum of each digits divisible by 9) at my junior high school. I tried to remember it and failed :-) However, I came up with the following: Any integer can be described as a sum of (9+1))^n x a (n is an integer larger than 0 and a is an integer between 0 to 9). Note that rightmost digit is also described as (9+1)^0 x a. So, the number 1,728,000 can be described as ((9+1)^6 x 1) + ((9+1)^5 x 7) + ((9+1)^4 x 2) + ((9+1)^3 x 8) + ((9+1)^2 x 0) + ((9+1)^1 x 0) + ((9+1)^0 x 0). Now there is a number that one wants to know if it is divisible by 9. That is: X = ((9+1)^n x a) + ((9+1)^(n-1) x b) + ((9+1)^(n-2) x c) ... + ((9+1)^0 x p) As (9+1)^n etc. can be expanded to: 9^n + (bunch of numbers that are multiple of 9) + 1 (note that 1^n is always 1) X becomes: X = (((9^n) x a) + ((bunch of numbers all divisible by 9) x a) + a) + (((9^(n-1)) x b) + ((another bunch of numbers all divisible by 9) x b ) + b) ... + p Then the only part of X that may not be divisible by 9 (remainder) is: Y = a + b+ c + ... p If Y is divisible by 9, then X is divisible by 9 and Y is the sum of all digits. (On a side note, the same thing can be said about 3. If the sum of all digits of an integer is divisible by 3, the integer is divisible by 3. This is easily deduced from the above as 9 is the square of 3.) If Y is not a single digit, repeat the above until you get a single digit number. As only single digit number that happens to be divisible by 9 is 9, if a number is divisible by 9, the sum of all the digits ultimately reaches 9.... (Here comes a disclaimer:) I don't really remember this was the right proof, and I was a bad student of math up to high school. And I haven't studied math since then. Also, I did not learn math in English, I am not familiar with those terms in English. Now if we go back to Indological topic, that so many numbers are divisible by 9 and therefore 3 seems rather to have something to do with Babylonian arithmetics. Didn't they have a system based on 36 or 60? (It seems natural that 36 or 60 is important numbers in ancient cultures because they are divisible by so many numbers including 12. If one counts one's palm as one, he/she now has 6 fingers to count and 12 fingers in total. Therefore counting up to 12 may not be so strange. Why in English etc. a unit of number ends at 12? Shouldn't one say "two-teen" instead of "twelve"? I know Beavis sort of does :-) -- Kengo From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue May 20 21:14:25 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 23:14:25 +0200 Subject: mathematics ? Message-ID: <161227030395.23782.2611767604514099327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzales-Reima wrote: > >Skol, > It is skaal, Luis! Glad to see you join the arm-bending community. (Did you know that arm-bending is Denmark's national sport?) Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Wed May 21 17:07:46 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 09:07:46 -0800 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030404.23782.16301032328414620485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: > > > > It seems to me that the 9 is closely related to the 0, > since it in effect acts as a zero when added to any other > number -- eg. 7 + 9= 16 = 1+6 = 7. I would be very > interested to read the papers to which you refer -- do you > know how I could get hold of them? They should be published soon. The editors are waiting for final revisions. Write to the following to get a copy of the proceedings: Dr. A.K. Bag Indian National Science Academy Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg New Delhi 110 002 India Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu Wed May 21 17:07:50 1997 From: pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 10:07:50 -0700 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030397.23782.11757589375485734635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 20 May 1997 00:07:56 BST sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu wrote: > S Krishna > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > he intended, I would like to say that the ancient Hindus seemed to > > have had a mystical interpretation for every postive integer i.e. > > 1 represents God, 2 represents any God and his/her consort i.e. > > Parvatiparameshvarau, Seetaramau, Lakshminarayanau , 3 represents > > the Trinity, 4 represents the 4 Yugas, 5 represents the Panchabhootas, 6 > > represents the Shadrtu( 6 seasons) and the > > worship of 6 dieties( according to Shankaracarya), 7 represents > > the Saptarshi( 7 sages)...........ad infinitum. The point I am trying > > to make is that any postive integer can be interpreted > > mystically/linked to a fact of nature. The mathematician Srinivasa > > Ramanujan is supposed to lectured once on the mystical significance of > > the number series 2**n -1, where n is a positive > > integer. His claim was that one can derive all important aspects > > of Bhuloka from this number series. > > If there is one number that can be called the mystical number > supreme in India, it is SUnya = 0. Whole philosophies > in Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Jainism, etc. are constructed > around this number and concept. At the recent Seminar on SUnya > (Feb. 97) held by INSA and IGNCA in New Delhi, the topic was > explored in depth and many interesting papers were presented. > > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala > It seems to me that the 9 is closely related to the 0, since it in effect acts as a zero when added to any other number -- eg. 7 + 9= 16 = 1+6 = 7. I would be very interested to read the papers to which you refer -- do you know how I could get hold of them? Thanks! Patricia ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From silk at wmich.edu Wed May 21 15:15:24 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 11:15:24 -0400 Subject: Max Mueller and Solar Myth Message-ID: <161227030400.23782.3569326641495666823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Solar mythology, one might see the piece by Richard M. Dorson, "The Eclipse of Solar Mythology," originally in Journal of American Folklore 68 (1955): 393-416, reprinted several times including in Alan Dundes, The Study of Folklore (Prentice-Hall, 1965). Dorson has copious references to Mueller's (or as he preferred to use as his family name Max Mueller!) solar mythology, and its excesses. Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From downingg at is2.nyu.edu Wed May 21 16:21:50 1997 From: downingg at is2.nyu.edu (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 12:21:50 -0400 Subject: nines Message-ID: <161227030406.23782.64454891362579690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:36 PM 5/21/97 BST, you (Patricia M. Greer) wrote: >It seems to me that the 9 is closely related to the 0, >since it in effect acts as a zero when added to any other >number -- eg. 7 + 9= 16 = 1+6 = 7. Right -- I see why these multiples all add down ultimately to nine now: mutliples of nine are of course just additions of nine, and in a base-ten system any addition of nine decreases the "ones"-place by one and increases the "tens"-place by one (thus, 18 + 9 = 27, 27 + 9 = 36), two things which cancel one another out when one goes to add the digits together. This leaves all the multiples of nine as numbers that ultimately come to nine as well if one keeps adding digits together. This is true because nine is one less than the key-number ten of a base-ten system. The same would apply to the number one below the base-number in any base-system. Thus, in a base-six system, any multiple of five would "add down" to five: e.g., in base-six, 10 is written as 14, which adds down to 5 (etc.). So there's nothing magic there, it's simply a function of our base-number. If we had eight fingers and eight toes (and the resultant sense of eight as the "round" number), we'd be making the same point about seven. Still, logic aside, what number-lore ancient people believed is another issue. Nine as the proportion between menstrual/lunar cycles and the typical human gestation period (another accident [?] of human anatomy or product of evolution), and nine as three threes, are likely to have made the number stand out in general, in addition to more local associations in particular cultures. Greg Downing/NYU greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From thompson at jlc.net Wed May 21 20:00:47 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 16:00:47 -0400 Subject: Max Mueller on Vedic etc. Religion Message-ID: <161227030410.23782.4146010455925503876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greg Downing raises an interesting question which deserves more time and thought than I can give to it right now [already over-booked]. But I thought it might be worth saying this: For Vedicists MM's work specifically on Vedic has been out of date for more than 100 yrs. [cf. for example, Bergaigne, vol 1, 187,8 or Oldenberg, "Ancient India" publ. in Eng. in 1896, Germ. orig. in 1886 - full citations on request]. MM's nature mythology, discussed in the article cited by Jonathan Silk, is based, of course, on his extensive readings of Vedic. But MM labored under the typical 19th cent. misconception that he was dealing with the "dawn of civilization" or something like that, re the Rgveda. We now know better. The process of divinization of natural phenomena that he sees in the RV is the result of an over-literal interpretation of the hymns, as if Vedic poets were *incapable* of metaphor. It is also the result of an abuse of etymology [Dyaus = Zeus, etc. -- so what? we learn precious little about either god from this equation]. I think it is fair to say that no Vedicist in her / his right mind would resort to MM, except for the sake of historical curiosity. With that said, I have always thought, nevertheless, that his notion "disease of language" and his etymologizing deserved some kind of re-evaluation. Though the Vedic RSis were not, by a long shot, the naive nature worshippers that he assumed they were, they *were* preoccupied in significant ways with language. And even MM in the early days of Vedic studies could tell that something was going on in the language of these hymns. Sorry, this is hasty and over-general. But maybe it will trigger some more careful observations from others. I hope to be able to follow up later. Best wishes, George Thompson From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed May 21 14:53:00 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 16:53:00 +0200 Subject: CSX-coded Windows font Message-ID: <161227030399.23782.5656725963265286304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there such a thing as a CSX-coded Windows font, and where can I find it? (I have a lot of other Indic fonts, but none seem to fit the CSX scheme of things). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Wed May 21 15:54:34 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 16:54:34 +0100 Subject: CSX-coded Windows font Message-ID: <161227030402.23782.15382228238635660510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Is there such a thing as a CSX-coded Windows font, and where can I find it? > (I have a lot of other Indic fonts, but none seem to fit the CSX scheme of > things). I shall be placing a set of Times-like CSX fonts for Windows on my FTP server in the very near future (perhaps tomorrow). I'll post a notice giving details when they are in position. New versions of the Norman fonts will also appear at the same time. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Wed May 21 17:52:27 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 19:52:27 +0200 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030408.23782.13079506708193348394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patricia M. Greer wrote: >> If there is one number that can be called the mystical number >> supreme in India, it is SUnya = 0. Whole philosophies >> in Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Jainism, etc. are constructed >> around this number and concept. At the recent Seminar on SUnya >> (Feb. 97) held by INSA and IGNCA in New Delhi, the topic was >> explored in depth and many interesting papers were presented. >> >It seems to me that the 9 is closely related to the 0, >since it in effect acts as a zero when added to any other >number -- eg. 7 + 9= 16 = 1+6 = 7. This is again a consequence the same property of decimal numeration we were talking about in a previous thread, namely that the remainder of any number by 9 is equal to the remainder of the sum of its decimal digits by 9 (btw, I guess you could call 16 = 1+6, impressionistic mathematics :), which implies that not only 9 but any of its multiples "acts as a zero"... Look: 123 + 36 = 159, and 1+2+3=6 while 1+5+9=15 and 1+5=6. (Wow!) This is not a property of 9 but of the decimal system; multiples of 5 would have it in a 6-based numeration system, multiples of 7 in a 8-based numeration system, multiples of 11 in a duodecimal system, multiples of 59 in a sexagesimal system of course "multiples of 1", that is, any number (!) does in a binary system: multiples of N-1 will always exhibit such "magic" properties in an N-based positional numeration system. How old is the decimal numeration system in India? If one includes properties of the decimal representation among what supposedly made 9 remarkable to ancient India, shouldn't one first make sure that those properties were apparent? In any case I assume such properties should only be included if a culture possesses a decimal positional system, which seems to exclude pretty much all cultures except India and those who borrowed the decimal positional system from India, i.e. Muslim civilization and Western Europe. It seems to exclude China, Egypt, Rome and Greece, as well as the hypothetical speakers of PIE since presumably they were not using positional systems, but also Mesopotamia (60-based positional system) or Mesoamerica (20-based positional system). Of course I'd be happy to be corrected on any of this. From downingg at is2.nyu.edu Thu May 22 01:11:54 1997 From: downingg at is2.nyu.edu (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 21:11:54 -0400 Subject: Max Mueller (Part 1 of 2) Message-ID: <161227030413.23782.15677776508784309809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'll split G. Thompson's post into two shorter parts to answer it, as a lot of important issues come up and I know that wading through one long post can be annoying. Greg Downing/NYU At 09:11 PM 5/21/97 BST, you (thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson)) wrote: >For Vedicists MM's work specifically on Vedic has been out of date for more >than 100 yrs. [cf. for example, Bergaigne, vol 1, 187,8 or Oldenberg, >"Ancient India" publ. in Eng. in 1896, Germ. orig. in 1886 - full citations >on request]. > Before I get started, let me thank Jonathan Silk for the solar-religion article reference in his post, of which I was not aware, and which looks extremely useful and spot-on with regard to one issue I have to deal with in MM. Thanks also to others for comments and advice given offlist in the last 48 hours. As for MM's (shall we say) "retro" status, that I was definitely aware of!!! both later 19C and later 20C), it's pretty clear that even before the final phase of his career (d. 1900) MM got blasted by English, German, and US scholars not only in the Vedic and mythological/religious areas but also in the area of language-theory, etc. I'm not trying to resurrect MM as a serious voice in these areas, but to look at some of the similarities that show up between Joyce's work (he attended university in 1898-1902) and the ideas in MM's more speculative (and thus, in fact, less solidly grounded) work on language and myth/religion. MM's first major publication on language-theory (his prior efforts were quite narrow/specialized) is _Lectures on the Science of Lang_ (1863), where to understand what MM is doing (for better or for worse) one has to take account of the work of Richard Chenevix Trench. MM is following up on the great success Trench had with the series of pop-philology books, from _The Study of Words_ (1851) through _Words Formerly Used in Senses Different From Their Present_ (1859). Trench's books (esp. _SW_ and _English Past and Present_) were more successful than any previous language-lore books, and brought Trench not only great income but great authority as a language-expert. But since was a poet and cleric, Trench did not go beyond discussing the history of English words, and similar developments in other well-known Euro. langs., as well as the background of the modern Euro langs in Latin and Greek. Trench by the way is the grandfather of the life-model for the character Haines in Chap 1 of Joyce's _Ulysses_. Joyce, Gogarty ( = Mulligan in _Ulysses_), and Samuel Chenevix Trench spent some time living in a Tower together in 1904, and the opening of Joyce's _Ulysses_ is set there. Trench's pop-philology books were still taught in college-English classes in JJ's days as an undergrad, and quite a number of words discussed in Trench's books show up in Ul. Chap. 14, which runs through various stages in the development of English prose style. (Small world. -- But this Joyce/Trenchian pop-philology connection has not been discussed before in the literature on Joyce.) It seems to me that MM in the early 1860s sees himself as extending the kind of work Trench had done to include comparative philology, even if his language-studies work is somewhat behind the times from a really technical angle, as well as rather popularizing, reductive, and speculative. (Trench published no new pop-philology books after 1859, but continued living off the income.) And there are quite a few linguistic and mythological ideas in MM that seem to find considerable echo in JJ. But I can see this is already a long post and I don't want to make it too long. The details can certainly be discussed further, on or off list. >MM's nature mythology, discussed in the article cited by Jonathan Silk, is >based, of course, on his extensive readings of Vedic. But MM labored under >the typical 19th cent. misconception that he was dealing with the "dawn of >civilization" or something like that, re the Rgveda. We now know better. > Exactly -- an odd thing about MM's work on proto-IE roots (if I may approach the same point from a comparative-philology angle) is that he appears at some times to think that the roots represent the origin of human language, and other times he thinks of PIE as possibly related to other langauges or macro-families (which implies a common ancestry and makes PIE something other than an autochthonous language so to speak). Many passages can be cited in connection with either position: (1) In many places MM argues that PIE roots are explicable as the result of primitive human vocalizations (a "clamor concomitans") that accompanied a particular movement or gesture which it therefore came to "mean" through a process of association and thus symbol-creation. Thus, people would make a certain sound that felt right when they made a pulling action, and that sound therefore came to be the PIE root for "pull," just as modern sailors make certain sounds when pulling a line etc. Thus, for MM, all PIE roots are verbal; compare the 121 roots he boils Sanskrit down to at the beginning of Vol II of _The Science of Thought_, 1887, Chap VII, esp. the 121-item list on pp. 399-401. ("Panini," as MM transliterates the name, might have been jealous!) When MM argues in this way, PIE roots are linguistically originary, not evolved from earlier language. (2) MM takes the opposite side more rarely, since the amount of even remotely possible-looking theorization about language macro-families was pretty slim in the later 19C (and remains pretty controversial still today, long after the formulation of Nostratic theory in the 1920s or the more recent work of people like Ruhlen). But nonetheless, see MM's _On the Stratification of Language_ (1868), p. 39: "...before we lay it down as an axiom, that there can be no kind of relationship between Sanskrit and Hebrew..., that they represent, in fact, two independent species of human speech, it is but right that we should pause, and not turn away contemptuously from the tentative researches of scholars like Ewald, Raumer, and Ascoli." P. 40: "Attempts have lately been made to point out a number of roots which Chinese shares in common with Sanskrit." Etc. I know all too well that both positions, as stated, are historical relics from the angle of 1997. But even taken as such, they don't fit with each other that well. If there's any chance that there might be macro-families beyond PIE that are related to PIE, his theory about the origin of language would (even on its own terms...) have to be pushed back to a common ancestor. Rest of discussion in a second post shortly following this one. Greg Downing/NYU greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From downingg at is2.nyu.edu Thu May 22 01:29:31 1997 From: downingg at is2.nyu.edu (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Wed, 21 May 97 21:29:31 -0400 Subject: Max Mueller (Part 2 of 2) Message-ID: <161227030415.23782.127239483587631632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cont'd from Part 1 of 2 ("Fortsetzung und Schluss" as they say in 19C philology journals). Greg Downing/NYU At 09:11 PM 5/21/97 BST, you (thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson)) wrote: >The process of divinization of natural phenomena that [MM] sees in the RV is >the result of an over-literal interpretation of the hymns, as if Vedic >poets were *incapable* of metaphor. It is also the result of an abuse of >etymology [Dyaus = Zeus, etc. -- so what? we learn precious little about >either god from this equation]. I think it is fair to say that no Vedicist >in her / his right mind would resort to MM, except for the sake of >historical curiosity. > The first two sentences above are for me as a non-indologist is the densest passage in your post. I'm familar with MM's theories of different kinds of metaphor, and how one kind of metaphor causes language to be used to create divinities by turning abstract concepts into agencies. MM seems to be saying that people who create myth engage in the "wrong" kind of metaphor from the angle of scientific accuracy, if a fecund angle for the creation of religious characters and stories. He seems to believe that if people really take agni = fire as a literal divinity named Agni then they are making a metaphor into a false literalism (assuming that myth is an unscientific construct). He is right that people are creating myth by a "disease of language" if people think fire is a god and there is in fact (for the sake of the argument) no actual fire-god as a personal agency. But that does not exclude the possibility that people also see abstract and natural phenomena for what they are, and are simply trying to express that poetically or allegorically when looking at things through the lens of myth. The real issue is: Do ancient people see their gods as literal or metaphorical? MM thinks they see them as literal and thus views myth as metaphor gone wrong in certain ways, if full of possibilities in other ways. Anyway, he discusses this at some length in (among other loci) the last three-fifths of Lecture VIII in the Second Series of _Lecs on the Sci of Lang_ (Lec VIII in Vol II of a unified edit of LSL): but since it would require several paras. of discussion I won't mention it unless Geo. Thompson or someone else wants to go into it in a subsequent post or private email message. On the Dyaus/Zeus/et al. kinds of "identifications of divinities" MM loves so dearly, his most basic point (whether he's accurate either generally or in details is another issue entirely...) seems to be that there are general overlaps in IE mythologies, which he boils down to things like sun/dawn/brightness/prosperity and storms/thunder/etc. You can see a convenient taxonomy of Vedic and other IE divinities and religious concepts through his very particular filter in _Biographies of Words_ (1887, reprtd. 1912), pp. 188-198 (section XV of his taxonomy of putatively PIE concepts in various IE cultures). I think he is dying to demonstrate not only the linguistic but also the cultural affinities of IE cultures. So he basically maginalizes, or ignores, or fails to see at all, the *details* of various divinities that are *specific* to one culture or another, and focuses pretty exclusively on (what he believes to be, if reductively) the overlaps indicative to his mind of common IE origin, and some kind of Ur-culture. I see MM as maybe something like a Joseph Campbell type of figure -- very popular with nonspecialists, but rather distortive and reductive from a specialist angle. Campbell started as an acolyte of Jung, co-wrote with H C Robinson the first book ever published on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_ in 1945, and produced _The Hero with a Thousand Faces_ in the 50s (assimilating all myth and literature and dream to a "monomyth" pattern of separation/initiation/return -- "monomyth" is a term borrowed out-of-context from _FW_). This Campbell followed with a whole series of "comparative mythology" books as large in extent as MM's (dead...) corpus. Campbell as popularizing crosscultural religious and literary speculator finally ended up doing a TV series with an "intellectual" interviewer on US Public TV (which is mostly cultural programming), where they discussed the supposed underlying themes of "all" world myth/religion and all dream-symbolism. JC was a prof. at Sarah Lawrence, a small liberal arts college in New York City, and died a few years ago. >With that said, I have always thought, nevertheless, that his notion >"disease of language" and his etymologizing deserved some kind of >re-evaluation. Though the Vedic RSis were not, by a long shot, the naive >nature worshippers that he assumed they were, they *were* preoccupied in >significant ways with language. And even MM in the early days of Vedic >studies could tell that something was going on in the language of these >hymns. > See my comments just above on my understanding, such as it is, of MM's theory of the emergence of myth from certain kinds of metaphorical use of language. And what you point out here as possibly valid in some very general way in MM's idea of the language/metaphor/myth axis is in fact quite close to the heart of my tentative sense of the Joyce/MM axis on the issue of language and myth (which I have not talked about, thank God...). Let me emphasize that I am not trying to sell anything, nor is my sense of what MM is doing anything close to being carved in stone. I'm raising these issues with specialists in an effort to avoid saying something about MM and the possible MM/Joyce axis that will look ridiculous from the angle of a professional Indologist (given the unavoidable problem of how superannuated MM's ideas are in many ways). >Sorry, this is hasty and over-general. But maybe it will trigger some more >careful observations from others. I hope to be able to follow up later. > It was certainly very useful to me, and I'd receive gratefully any further comment from you and/or anyone else. Greg Downing/NYU greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From thillaud at unice.fr Wed May 21 22:10:27 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 00:10:27 +0200 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030438.23782.5767077781221318151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:35 +0200 21/05/97, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >In any case I assume such properties should only be included if >a culture possesses a decimal positional system, which seems to >exclude pretty much all cultures except India and those who borrowed >the decimal positional system from India, i.e. Muslim civilization >and Western Europe. It seems to exclude China, Egypt, Rome and >Greece, as well as the hypothetical speakers of PIE since presumably >they were not using positional systems, but also Mesopotamia >(60-based positional system) or Mesoamerica (20-based positional >system). Of course I'd be happy to be corrected on any of this. There is here some confusion between numbers (mathematical and very abstract) and their representations with digits (symbols) who are just linguistical: one, 7, two, fourty are digits (words), 37, fourty-two are representations of numbers with sentences. The question to know if thirteen is a digit or a sequence of digits is approximatively the same that to know if Vrkodara is a word or not. The various numeration systems have different properties, useful or not. The old systems such that IIIOO = 23 (I=1, O=10) are very easy to understand, not positional (IOIOI = 23), good for ordering and addition (no need of memorize the sum of two digits), then excellent for an economy based on counting and without remuneration of wealth (multiplication is hard and Romans needed abacs to do it). Our modern system, based on the use of 0, is better for our civilization but introduce new properties such '9 and sums of digits'. That's not a property of the abstract number 9! So, if 9 is a mystical number, that's because 9 = 3*3 or 9 = 2*2*2 + 1, or &c. I agree with philosophical importance of the NUMBER 0 (void), and with mathematical and economical importance of the DIGIT 0 (formerly a dot = a place without digit). Linked, yes, but not the same thing. Regards, Dominique P.S. 1: I don't believe human gestation has anything to do with 9: 273 (statistical duration) : 29.5 (lunar month) = 9.25 and this 0.25 is too great (birth's moon and conception's mood are not the same!). More: I don't know how Indians counted the durations before Indian mathematicians, but in ancient Greece where the Olympic Games were 'pentaeterikoi' (each 'five' years), human gestation was 10 months. P.S. 2: Arithmetic is a hard branch of mathematics, yes, but with very few rapports with the very simple 'arithmetic' used to compute with numbers. And, for me, Pythagorus is NOT a mathematician but, if an historic person, a philosoph or a RSi ('his' theorem was named much later just because the mystical property 3*3 + 4*4 = 5*5, a constatation, not a theorem!). Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From torella at axrma.uniroma1.it Wed May 21 23:29:09 1997 From: torella at axrma.uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 00:29:09 +0100 Subject: Ganesha Purana manuscripts in Kashmir of Nepal Message-ID: <161227030411.23782.913630229351175492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >To all members of the List, > >I am presently working on a translation of the Uttara Khanda of the Ganesha >Purana, using three printed editions and five manuscripts. The latter are >from Poona and Madras. A comprehensive search of manuscript catalogues >reveals that no manuscript is to be found further North than Rajasthan, >Uttar Pradesh or West Bengal. > > Is anyone aware of the existence of such manuscripts in Kashmir or >Nepal. If such exist it is posssible that they may be older than the oldest >(1745ACE) manuscript I am presently using. > >With best wishes, > > >Greg Bailey Dear Greg, no manuscripts of the Ganesha Purana can be found in the most important collection of Sharada MSS in Kashmir (Research Department Library, Srinagar). As regards the MSS in the Raghunath Temple Library, Jammu, they are (supposed to be) included in the New Catalogus Catalogorum. There are no Ganesha Purana MSS in the Bir Library, Kathmandu, at least according to the Samkshiptasucipatra. Trivandrum Library has at least one MS of the Ganesha Purana (No. 19149, incomplete, 3600 granthas) which you are likely not to be aware of, since it is included in a supplementary list published only few years ago. It is a palm-leaf MS in grantha characters, and I shall be not surprised if it proves to be older than all the MSS you are using. With warm regards, Raffaele Raffaele Torella Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 22 11:17:28 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 07:17:28 -0400 Subject: Ganeshapurana Message-ID: <161227030417.23782.5277225234141729640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Folks, I deleted the question concerning manuscripts of the Ganeshpurana, but remember that the message mentioned three printed editions now being used as sources. I wonder if these three include an old block-printed edition from Pune published in the year 1798 (Shaka era), 1876 AD? I have a copy of this edition in my personal collection, but it may be available elsewhere. All the best, Madhav Deshpande From athr at loc.gov Thu May 22 15:20:56 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 11:20:56 -0400 Subject: Ganeshapurana Message-ID: <161227030425.23782.15546777922246389950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, Can you really mean block-printed, or do you mean lithographed? I wasn't aware of any block printing in the subcontinent (except for ornaments and illustrations). Allen Thrasher On Thu, 22 May 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Folks, > I deleted the question concerning manuscripts of the Ganeshpurana, > but remember that the message mentioned three printed editions now being > used as sources. I wonder if these three include an old block-printed > edition from Pune published in the year 1798 (Shaka era), 1876 AD? I have > a copy of this edition in my personal collection, but it may be available > elsewhere. > All the best, > Madhav Deshpande > > > From athr at loc.gov Thu May 22 16:11:14 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 12:11:14 -0400 Subject: Leitner Message-ID: <161227030427.23782.10541722280773106490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LC has a short run of a serial with a title something like "J. of the Oriental Nobility Institute, Woking." I seem to recall it was mostly in Sanskrit. It seems to be in process of cataloging. I will try to track down where it is. I know nothing about the institute or Leitner and was always puzzled by the corporate name. I wondered if it was some sort of a public school (in the British sense) for the Indian aristocracy. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov On Thu, 22 May 1997, Gabriele Zeller wrote: > To all 19th century specialists! > Has anyone out there information about Gottlieb William > Leitner (1840-1899,) and especially about his Oriental Institute in > Woking, Surrey, which he was head of in the 1880's. It was somehow > connected with the Punjab University in Lahore. Leitner and his > Institute is mentioned in several letters we are holding in our > library. Aurel Stein even stayed there for a short period. > Any suggestion welcome. > Gabriele > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Dr Gabriele Zeller > Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen > Wilhelmstr. 32 > 72016 Tuebingen > Tel:+49-7071-2974030 > Fax:+49-7071-293123 > > http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 22 18:44:58 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 14:44:58 -0400 Subject: Ganeshapurana Message-ID: <161227030429.23782.12445185671844875851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps I did not use the right word. In Sanskrit it says: "silaak.sarair mudrayitvaa . Madhav On Thu, 22 May 1997, Allen Thrasher wrote: > Madhav, > > Can you really mean block-printed, or do you mean lithographed? I wasn't > aware of any block printing in the subcontinent (except for ornaments and > illustrations). > > Allen Thrasher > > > > > On Thu, 22 May 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > > Folks, > > I deleted the question concerning manuscripts of the Ganeshpurana, > > but remember that the message mentioned three printed editions now being > > used as sources. I wonder if these three include an old block-printed > > edition from Pune published in the year 1798 (Shaka era), 1876 AD? I have > > a copy of this edition in my personal collection, but it may be available > > elsewhere. > > All the best, > > Madhav Deshpande > > > > > > > > > From athr at loc.gov Thu May 22 19:09:27 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 15:09:27 -0400 Subject: Ganeshapurana Message-ID: <161227030432.23782.9807628571668076863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Which would mean "lithographed." Allen On Thu, 22 May 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Perhaps I did not use the right word. In Sanskrit it says: "silaak.sarair > mudrayitvaa . > Madhav > > On Thu, 22 May 1997, Allen Thrasher wrote: > > > Madhav, > > > > Can you really mean block-printed, or do you mean lithographed? I wasn't > > aware of any block printing in the subcontinent (except for ornaments and > > illustrations). > > > > Allen Thrasher > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 22 May 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > I deleted the question concerning manuscripts of the Ganeshpurana, > > > but remember that the message mentioned three printed editions now being > > > used as sources. I wonder if these three include an old block-printed > > > edition from Pune published in the year 1798 (Shaka era), 1876 AD? I have > > > a copy of this edition in my personal collection, but it may be available > > > elsewhere. > > > All the best, > > > Madhav Deshpande > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Thu May 22 15:05:51 1997 From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 16:05:51 +0100 Subject: Leitner Message-ID: <161227030420.23782.2913052443194960810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all 19th century specialists! Has anyone out there information about Gottlieb William Leitner (1840-1899,) and especially about his Oriental Institute in Woking, Surrey, which he was head of in the 1880's. It was somehow connected with the Punjab University in Lahore. Leitner and his Institute is mentioned in several letters we are holding in our library. Aurel Stein even stayed there for a short period. Any suggestion welcome. Gabriele ---------------------------------------------------------- Dr Gabriele Zeller Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 72016 Tuebingen Tel:+49-7071-2974030 Fax:+49-7071-293123 http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub ---------------------------------------------------------- From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu May 22 23:15:54 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 16:15:54 -0700 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030440.23782.10563337508733750680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 22 May 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: [..] > I agree with philosophical importance of the NUMBER 0 (void), and > with mathematical and economical importance of the DIGIT 0 (formerly a dot > = a place without digit). Linked, yes, but not the same thing. While on the subject. let's not forget the philosophical importance of Infinity (if it can be called a number at all). There is more than a suggestion in many texts that mathematical ideas of infinity played a role in the philosophical conception of brahman in the upanishads. Vidyasankar From imj at u.washington.edu Thu May 22 23:25:14 1997 From: imj at u.washington.edu (South Asia Section) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 16:25:14 -0700 Subject: Leitner Message-ID: <161227030442.23782.4021892675664575157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The National Union Catalog, pre 56 lists nearly 2 dozen publications associated with Mr. Leitner. The British Library catalog lists over a dozen. One book was published in 1889 by the Oriental Nobility Institute in Woking and another in 1896 from the Oriental University Institute, Woking. He also edited a journal al-Haqaiq=Arabic quarterly review from Woking and 2 #'s of the Punjab Education Magazine from Lahore. South Asia Section Irene Joshi, M.L.S. South Asia Librarian University of Washington Libraries Box 352900 Seattle, Washington, 98195-2900 U.S.A. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~souasia/ On Thu, 22 May 1997, Allen Thrasher wrote: > LC has a short run of a serial with a title something like "J. of the > Oriental Nobility Institute, Woking." I seem to recall it was mostly in > Sanskrit. It seems to be in process of cataloging. I will try to track > down where it is. I know nothing about the institute or Leitner and was > always puzzled by the corporate name. I wondered if it was some sort of a > public school (in the British sense) for the Indian aristocracy. > > > Allen W. Thrasher > Senior Reference Librarian > Southern Asia Section > Library of Congress > LJ150 > 101 Independence Ave, S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4814 > tel. (202) 707-3732 > fax (202) 707-1724 > email: athr at loc.gov > > > > > On Thu, 22 May 1997, Gabriele Zeller wrote: > > > To all 19th century specialists! > > Has anyone out there information about Gottlieb William > > Leitner (1840-1899,) and especially about his Oriental Institute in > > Woking, Surrey, which he was head of in the 1880's. It was somehow > > connected with the Punjab University in Lahore. Leitner and his > > Institute is mentioned in several letters we are holding in our > > library. Aurel Stein even stayed there for a short period. > > Any suggestion welcome. > > Gabriele > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr Gabriele Zeller > > Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen > > Wilhelmstr. 32 > > 72016 Tuebingen > > Tel:+49-7071-2974030 > > Fax:+49-7071-293123 > > > > http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > From martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Fri May 23 00:34:12 1997 From: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Bemmann) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 17:34:12 -0700 Subject: Leitner Message-ID: <161227030422.23782.3397805506251453718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Leitner was *deputed by the Panjab Government in 1866 on a mission of linguistic enquiry to Kashmir and Chilas, late on special duty with the Government of India in the Foreign Department*. His main contributions are: The Languages and Races of Dardistan, Lahore 1877 (3 parts) The Hunza and Nagyr Handbook, Calcutta 1887 and Dardistan in 1866, 1886 and 1893: beeing an account ...., Woking 1894 (repr. Karachi 1985). There should be biographical notes in books on Hunza and the Burushaski language. Regards, -- Martin Bemmann From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu May 22 15:06:38 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 18:06:38 +0300 Subject: Leitner Message-ID: <161227030424.23782.17373663663892845306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >To all 19th century specialists! >Has anyone out there information about Gottlieb William >Leitner (1840-1899,) and especially about his Oriental Institute in >Woking, Surrey, which he was head of in the 1880's. It was somehow >connected with the Punjab University in Lahore. Leitner and his >Institute is mentioned in several letters we are holding in our >library. Aurel Stein even stayed there for a short period. >Any suggestion welcome. >Gabriele > Dear Gabriele Zeller, I am not a 19th century specialist, but Leitner specialized (among many other things) on Dardic languages. There is an excellent description of him as a person and a scholar in John Keay's _The Gilgit Game_ (Oxford U. P.), and Leitner's _Dardistan in 1866, 1886 and 1893_ has been reprinted in New Delhi (Manjusri Publishing House, 1978). The two works in tandem should give you a good impression of his scholarly work. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt (Dardic specialist) Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: lailasc at hedda.uio.no From silk at wmich.edu Thu May 22 22:16:49 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 18:16:49 -0400 Subject: block-printed books Message-ID: <161227030436.23782.5205058249452516311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't have time to go into this now, but the Tibetans did without doubt learn wood-block printing from the Chinese, at least as early as the 12th or 13th centuries. The entire Kanjur was first printed from woodblocks in Peking in 1410 (I wrote about this in the Eimer Festschrift _Suhrllekha_, Bonn, 1996). (I think David Jackson [Univ. Hamburg] probably knows as much about the history of Tibetan printing as anyone, if you want to follow up on early printed books.) If further details are required, get back to me. -- Madhav and Allen already clarified that in the Indian case it is stone not wood that was used. In great haste, Jonathan Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri May 23 02:14:22 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 19:14:22 -0700 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030445.23782.456283175081949371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:25 AM 5/20/97 BST, Martin Gansten wrote: >There does seem to exist an idea of Dvapara and Treta changing places, >though, as I recall from reading certain commentaries on Bhagavata Purana. >(I believe the words giving rise to this interpretation were 1.4.14: >"dvaapare samanupraapte t.rtiiye yugaparyaye...") That's interesting, but also highly unusual. Wouldn't this translate as: "when the DvApara has arrived at the third change of yuga..." or "when DvApara, the third in the order of yugas, has arrived..." Luis From vidya at singnet.com.sg Thu May 22 13:15:33 1997 From: vidya at singnet.com.sg (Vidyasagar Govind) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 21:15:33 +0800 Subject: Sanskrit and Computers Message-ID: <161227030418.23782.6327025278222538060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have heard it often remarked that Sanskrit is an ideal language for use with computers,or something to that effect. Could someone kindly enlighten me as to what this means ? Is it unique to Sanskrit ?What are the implications ? Thanks, Vidya From bpj at netg.se Thu May 22 21:37:10 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Thu, 22 May 97 23:37:10 +0200 Subject: block-printed books Message-ID: <161227030434.23782.6246920019062357360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:30 22.5.1997 +0100, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >Folks, > I deleted the question concerning manuscripts of the Ganeshpurana, >but remember that the message mentioned three printed editions now being >used as sources. I wonder if these three include an old block-printed ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >edition from Pune published in the year 1798 (Shaka era), 1876 AD? I have >a copy of this edition in my personal collection, but it may be available >elsewhere. > All the best, > Madhav Deshpande I didn't know that blockprinting of books was employed in India. Are these books similar to Tibetan blockprinted books, and if so is there any actual technical historical connection? One always hears that the Tibetans learned blockprinting from China, and from what I've been able to gather the technique used in Tibetan and Korean blockprinting is identical, which should indicate a Chinese origin. Philip _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri May 23 04:34:39 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 23 May 97 00:34:39 -0400 Subject: Ganeshapurana Message-ID: <161227030447.23782.14632975715169713101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Can you really mean block-printed, or do you mean lithographed? I wasn't > aware of any block printing in the subcontinent (except for ornaments and > illustrations). > > Allen Thrasher Even the earliest book printed in Indic characters, "Doctrina christam en lingua malauar tamul" (Tamil title - tampirAn vaNakkam), a 16 page publication from Quilon dated 20.2.1577, seems to have had block- printing only for the illustration... not surprising since it is almost a century after Gutenberg... this book is in the Houghton library at Harvard. -Srini. From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Fri May 23 02:15:35 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Fri, 23 May 97 04:15:35 +0200 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030444.23782.2558497934046251933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique Thillaud wrote: >>In any case I assume such properties should only be included if >>a culture possesses a decimal positional system, which seems to >>exclude pretty much all cultures except India and those who borrowed >>the decimal positional system from India, i.e. Muslim civilization >>and Western Europe. It seems to exclude China, Egypt, Rome and >>Greece, as well as the hypothetical speakers of PIE since presumably >>they were not using positional systems, but also Mesopotamia >>(60-based positional system) or Mesoamerica (20-based positional >>system). Of course I'd be happy to be corrected on any of this. > > There is here some confusion between numbers (mathematical and very >abstract) and their representations with digits (symbols) who are just >linguistical: one, 7, two, fourty are digits (words), 37, fourty-two are >representations of numbers with sentences. No, representations with digits is just as mathematical an object as the numbers themselves. It is a mapping of the natural numbers (say) in the set of finite sequences of a finite set of symbols (the digits). Yes, at the linguistic level, there is also a kind of numeration system, if you consider "one", "two", "three", "four", ..., "a hundred", "a thousand", ..., "a million", to be its digits, and "one million two thousand three hundred twenty [= two tens] (and) three" to be a sequence of "digits", but that was *not* the numeration system that I was talking about. In that sense the Indian system (that is that of the, say, Sanskrit language) is no more positional than that of Latin or Chinese. The linguistic numeration systems are never positional, that I know, so it should have been pretty clear that I did not have that one in mind. 123 and "one hundred twenty three" are belong to two distinct numeration systems as sequence of symbols. You should distinguish the digit 3 and the digit "three". One is a graphical-symbolic object, the other is a linguistic object. It should be obvious that the two do not coincide, and neither is a representation of the other. You don't read "13" as "one three" but as "thirteen". From mgansten at sbbs.se Fri May 23 05:38:06 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Fri, 23 May 97 07:38:06 +0200 Subject: yuga, VarNa and colour Message-ID: <161227030449.23782.6350014863010019699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>"dvaapare samanupraapte t.rtiiye yugaparyaye...") > >That's interesting, but also highly unusual. Wouldn't this translate as: >"when the DvApara has arrived at the third change of yuga..." or "when >DvApara, the third in the order of yugas, has arrived..." Yes, that would be my idea, too -- but the very fact that some gloss it differently could suggest the existence of some sort of tradition to this effect. The commentary in question was a Gaudiya one; I don't know whether this is an idea peculiar to them. Martin Gansten From athr at loc.gov Fri May 23 15:25:36 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 23 May 97 11:25:36 -0400 Subject: Book on Indian military decoration Message-ID: <161227030453.23782.16513623809294975433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A book that is being produced locally and distributed by the author outside ordinary commercial channels may be of interest: Christopher Peterson Uparalleled danger, unsurpassed courage : Recipients of the Indian Order of Merit in the Second World War N.p., Christopher Peterson, 1997 ix, 201 p. US $19.95, UK L12.50, handling and postage extra available from: Christopher Peterson 11456 Orchard Lane Reston, VA 20190 tel. (703) 437-7150 Allen Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat May 24 01:10:39 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 23 May 97 18:10:39 -0700 Subject: Classifying the universe Message-ID: <161227030457.23782.12354526726316091405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:17 PM 5/23/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Dear netters! > >I am looking for reviews of Brian K. Smith's book "Classifying the >Universe", but I have been unable to locate any so far. Any suggestions? Here goes, Luis Search request: F TW CLASSIFYING THE UNIVERSE Search result: 6 citations in the CC article database 1. Kak, S. Classifying the universe: The ancient Indian varna system and the origins of caste, by B.K. Smith. CONTRIBUTIONS TO INDIAN SOCIOLOGY, 1996 JUL-DEC, V30 N2:333-334. Pub type: Book Review. 2. Hatcher, BA. Classifying the universe: The ancient Indian Varna system and the origins of caste, by B.K. Smith. JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF RELIGION, 1996 WINTER, V64 N4:863-866. Pub type: Book Review. 3. Smith, FM. Classifying the universe: The ancient Indian Varna system and the origins of caste, by B.K. Smith. JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN ORIENTAL SOCIETY, 1996 APR-JUN, V116 N2:344-346. Pub type: Book Review. 4. ZYSK KG. CLASSIFYING THE UNIVERSE - THE ANCIENT INDIAN VARNA SYSTEM AND THE ORIGINS OF CASTE - SMITH,BK. JOURNAL OF ASIAN STUDIES, 1996 AUG, V55 N3:770-771. Pub type: Book Review. 5. HERTEL BR. CLASSIFYING THE UNIVERSE - THE ANCIENT INDIAN VARNA SYSTEM AND THE ORIGINS OF CASTE - SMITH,BK. JOURNAL FOR THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF RELIGION, 1995 JUN, V34 N2:283-284. Pub type: Book Review. 6. SMITH BK. CLASSIFYING THE UNIVERSE - ANCIENT INDIAN COSMOGONIES AND THE VARNA SYSTEM. CONTRIBUTIONS TO INDIAN SOCIOLOGY, 1989 JUL-DEC, V23 N2:241-260. From jakub at unipune.ernet.in Fri May 23 23:34:05 1997 From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit) Date: Fri, 23 May 97 18:34:05 -0500 Subject: 13 as "one three" etc Message-ID: <161227030451.23782.7782944099311863055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 23 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > > You should distinguish the digit 3 and the digit "three". One is a > graphical-symbolic object, the other is a linguistic object. > > It should be obvious that the two do not coincide, and neither is > a representation of the other. You don't read "13" as "one three" > but as "thirteen". > I know this remark has not much to do with the discussion, yet I find it interesting that: Many people in India actually do often say "one three" for thirteen (e.g. as an answer to "How much is it"), perhaps to make it distinct from thirty (which distinction is not clear in the pronunciation of many) Btw: Recently, I saw kids in one family learning numerals. With beautiful (almost mantra-like :-) intonation they were repeating to learn by heart: "five three fifty three, three four thirty four" etc. for hours long. (May be this is common elsewhere too, but I never learned numbers like that) From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sat May 24 03:03:27 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 23 May 97 20:03:27 -0700 Subject: 13 as Message-ID: <161227030459.23782.2237858298597203119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jakub Cejka writes: >> > >I know this remark has not much to do with the discussion, yet I find it >interesting that: > >Many people in India actually do often say "one three" for thirteen (e.g. >as an answer to "How much is it"), perhaps to make it distinct from thirty >(which distinction is not clear in the pronunciation of many) > > >Btw: >Recently, I saw kids in one family learning numerals. With beautiful >(almost mantra-like :-) intonation they were repeating to learn by heart: > >"five three fifty three, three four thirty four" etc. for hours long. >(May be this is common elsewhere too, but I never learned numbers like >that) This is really interesting! The only place where I've heard ADULTS do this is while playing "tambOla", a game where you get a piece of paper with certain numbers on it , a person sits on a stage and calls out numbers which you cross out if they appear in your list ...This continues until somebody crosses all his numbers and collects the prize......It is NOT UNCOMMON to hear numbers being read out as "TWENTY and ONE = TWENTYONE" "DOUBLE ONE= ELEVEN". My experience has been that in India, people are taught to read out the numbers individually AFTER the decimal point i.e. 25.13 would be read out as "twenty five point one three" as opposed to the USofA where it is read out as "twenny five point thirteen". This seems to be more or less universally valid. As an interesting aside, Dennis Mitchell( of "Dennis the Menace" fame) seems to be counting numbers like the above mentioned kids: "One hundred one ten one, one hundred twelveteen, one hundred one ten three....one hundred, twenty oneteen....Joey! you gotta One hundred twenty twoteen marbles";-);-). Can we therefore call this method of counting "Dennisque"? Krishna --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri May 23 22:10:03 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 24 May 97 00:10:03 +0200 Subject: Classifying the universe Message-ID: <161227030455.23782.4495111687175295140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear netters! I am looking for reviews of Brian K. Smith's book "Classifying the Universe", but I have been unable to locate any so far. Any suggestions? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From garzilli at shore.net Sat May 24 15:34:50 1997 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 24 May 97 11:34:50 -0400 Subject: JSAWS: Our Book 1995-1997 Message-ID: <161227030461.23782.16662127609546086859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J S A W S Copyright (c) 1995-97 -- ISSN 1085-7478 May 24, 1997 Dear Members, I am happy to announce that the book *THE JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES 1995-1997* is in press. It will be available in a few weeks. It is published by the *Asiatica Association*. It will be distributed by the Asiatica Association, and Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers Pvt Ltd. It will be available in the US either from the Asiatica Association or South Asia Books. The book also contains an unpublished lecture by the 1995 Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought, Dr. Taslima Nasrin. CONTENTS ******** - PREFACE by Michael Witzel - INTRODUCTION - ABSTRACT OF THE PAPERS - VOL. 1, NO. 1 (November 1, 1995) Papers by Sita Kapadia, Subhadra Chaturvedi; Review by Enrica Garzilli - VOL. 2, NO. 1 (January 26, 1996) Paper by Enrica Garzilli - VOL. 2, NO. 2 (May 15, 1996) Papers by Jayaraj Acharya, Bandita Phukan, Himendra B. Thakur; Reviews by Enrica Garzilli - VOL. 2, NO. 3 (December 1, 1996) Paper by Carolyn Brewer; Review by Enrica Garzilli - VOL. 2, NO. 4 (December 22, 1996) Papers by Ranjita Bunwaree-Phukan, Julia Leslie, Ram Narayan Tripathi, Michael E. J. Witzel - VOL. 3, NO. 1 (June 1, 1997) Report and Interview by Enrica Garzilli; Paper by Taslima Nasrin - BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES OF THE EDITORS OF THE JOURNAL - DEB ABSTRACT OF THE PAPERS ********************** Vol. 1, No. 1: A TRIBUTE TO MAHATMA GANDHI: HIS VIEWS ON WOMEN AND SOCIAL CHANGE by Sita Kapadia Mahatma Gandhi's legacy to the world, and to India especially, is immeasurable; his life and work have left an impact on every aspect of life in India; he has addressed many personal, social and political issues; his collected works number nearly one hundred volumes. From these Kapadia has gleaned a few thoughts about women and social change. In 1940, reviewing his twenty-five years of work in India concerning women's role in society, Gandhi says, "My contribution to the great problem lies in my presenting for acceptance truth and ahimsa (non-violence) in every walk of life, whether for individuals or nations. I have hugged the hope that in this woman will be the unquestioned leader and, having thus found her place in human evolution, will shed her inferiority complex... Woman is the incarnation of ahimsa. Ahimsa means infinite love, which again means infinite capacity for suffering. And who but woman, the mother of man, shows this capacity in the largest measure?... Let her translate that love to the whole of humanity... And she will occupy her proud position by the side of man... She can become the leader in satyagraha..." What is significant and what Kapadia underlines here is Gandhi's image of woman and his hope for her, so radically different from that of any earlier reformer. WHETHER INHERITANCE TO WOMEN IS A VIABLE SOLUTION OF DOWRY PROBLEM IN INDIA? by Subhadra Chaturvedi The gravest form of the problem is dowry death, the enormity whereof can be visualized by the fact that according to the National Crime Records Bureau of India, in 1994, there occurred a dowry death in India every 102 minutes. According to a statement made by the State Minister for Home Affairs in the Parliament of India, the number of dowry death in 1993 is 5,817. As far as property is concerned, the present position is that 99% property is held by men. Inheritance is governed by Hindu Succession Act, 1956 and in respect of agricultural lands, which constitute 90% of the total property in India, by respective land laws of the States concerned. Sub-section (2) of Sec. 4 of the Act, specifically excludes the application of the Act in respect of agricultural holdings and almost all the land laws have given preference to the male inheritance. Even under the Hindu Succession Act, despite the loudest proclamation of gender equality under the Indian Constitution, a female heir is practically entitled to only a negligible fragment of property inasmuch as in India the 90% of the property is ancestral property and the majority is governed by Mitakshara copercernory law and according to Section 6 of the Act (applicable in case of intestate succession) read with the Schedule of the Act, a female heir would inherit only a little unless she is the only heir out of the 12 categories specified in class I of the Schedule. Female inheritance which will give the financial security to women and which will eliminate the rationalization of money transfer before and/or after wedding in the form of dowry and/or "stridhan". Vol. 2, No. 1: STRIDHANA: TO HAVE AND TO HAVE NOT by Enrica Garzilli The paper is a survey and an analysis of Hindu women's rights to property (str?dhana) in India. The first part deals with the connection between Indian dowry and property. In fact, for centuries dowry has been the only property of Hindu women. The second part is a diachronical study of the law according to the traditional Hindu law-books, the dharma??stras. The interdependence between dowry, considered for centuries as a substitute for inheritance, and inheritance itself has also been investigated. The most authoritative Indian law-books from the Manavadharma??stra (2nd-3rd A.D.) until the Hindu Succession Act of 1956, and some major commentaries and digests on them, have been considered. The third part of the study focuses on the legal fracture between the concepts of property and str?dhana under the British rule. The English misinterpretation of the traditional law allowed women to have full property rights only with certain restrictions and only when still alive. The third and fourth part of the paper analyzes the Hindu Women's Rights to Property Act (1937) and the Hindu Succession Act (1956). In the last part there is an attempt to answer a few questions that come from the study. Vol. 2, No. 2: SATI WAS NOT ENFORCED IN ANCIENT NEPAL by Jayaraj Acharya Sati, the ancient custom in the Hindu religion of a wife being burnt withher dead husband, does not seem to have been enforced in ancient Nepal, i.e. during the rule of the Licchavi dynasty (c. A.D. 300-879).In this paper, the about 190 stone inscriptions from this period are considered. The only Licchavi inscription which has a reference to the sati system is the inscription of Manadeva I at the Changu Narayana temple in the north-eastern corner of the Kathmandu valley (A.D. 464). This inscription does not refer to the commitment of sati but abstention from it. Moreover, out of the total 190, there are 18 stone inscriptions thatwere installed exclusively by widows during the Licchavi period. Of the 18 inscriptions of widows, only 3 were by members of the royal family. These are some instances that evidently indicate the abstention from sati, but there is not a single evidence in any of the 190 inscriptions from the Licchavi period Nepal that says that someone did it. THE DAUGHTERS AND HINDU RITES by Bandita Phukan This the account of Ms. Bandita Phukan. She is the first woman mechanical engineer in the State of Assam. When her father died in 1993, her relatives tried to find a son of a cousin to do the last rites (Shraddha), because her father did not have a son. Bandita revolted, and asked thepriest to permit her to do the last rites. At the beginning, the priestrefused. Last rites of a dead person can be performed only by a malemember of the family, and never by a daughter. Bandita did not give up. Ather insistence, one Brahmin priest came forward and allowed her to performthe last rites of her father. If married Hindu daughters could be allowed to perform the Shraddha cerimonies, concludes Phukan, their surviving parents would be happy to have "a dear daughter as eligible as their dear son." PRACTICAL STEPS TOWARDS SAVING THE LIVES OF 25,000 POTENTIAL VICTIMS OF DOWRY AND BRIDE-BURNING IN INDIA IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS by Himendra B. Thakur This paper offers an analysis of one of the remedies that could besuggested to oppose dowry: young women should refuse to marry as soon asthe groom's family asks for dowry. It gives statistics and examines: 1) the cases of dowry-deaths in India; 2) the geographical distribution of concentration of dowry-deaths per million Hindu popolation. In the last part of the paper, Thakur outlines three immediate and a long-termsolutions given women who refuse to marry because of dowry demand. Vol. 2, No. 3: FROM 'BAYLAN' TO 'BRUHA': HISPANIC IMPACT ON THE ANIMIST PRIESTESS IN THE PHILIPPINES by Carolyn Brewer In the Philippines, at the time of the Spanish conquest, the Catholic priests were instructed by Bishop Salazar to learn and preach in the languages of the inhabitants. However, certain cluster of words,especially those involving Animist priestesses were altered, negated andthen marginalised almost to extinction. This movement paralleled the demonisation and eventual disappearance of the priestesses fromhistorical texts. The paper wants to: 1) describe the process involvedin this double negation; 2) recover the forgotten words; 3) give Animist priestesses back their rightful place in Philippine history. Vol. 2, No. 4: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: A DAILY TERROR IN MOST MAURITIAN FAMILIES by Ranjita Bunwaree-Phukan In Mauritian Society there is the rise in domestic violence. Cases of battered children, women in distress and complaints from male partners are increasing. The Government is sparing no effort to grapple with these problems through its wide network of services, such as counselling, prompt intervention and other means. Mauritius is a tiny multi-cultural island in the Indian Ocean off the East Coast of Madagascar and South East Coast of Africa. Its population of ca. 1,2 millions originates from Africa, India, China, and Europe, though the main part of it originates from India. In this paper the author analyzes the reasons and the remedies for this increasing plague. DOWRY, "DOWRY DEATHS", AND VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN by Julia Leslie For several months in 1994 Leslie has made a collection of clippings on dowry deaths in several papers in India: the daily The Hindu, The Deccan Herald, and The Indian Express, the monthly India Today, and an occasional Times of India. She noted that the giving of dowry in the first place is traditionally justified in terms of giving the daughter her "inheritance" at the time of marriage, even though only a small proportion of that dowry is ever intended for her own use. Through this unsystematic survey, Leslie studied whether dowry deaths were a middle-class phenomenon, how prevalent was the custom of demanding and giving dowry, whether "dowry deaths" and the system of dowry were generally increasing. She asked people who was to blame for dowry, and the result was that 83% of the women respondents in this study spoke against the system of dowry, and men said that women were responsible for this. Everyone was against dowry on principle and yet everyone felt compelled to take part. She concludes atht anyone can be victimized by the dowry system, even men. In this study Leslie further explores whether men could be the victims of dowry. Her last question is whether dowry is the real problem. She answers that is the perceived, internalized and socially reinforced ideology of the inferiority of women that brings to dowry deaths. Finally she lists a series of proposals to eradicate the phenomenon. HINDU MARRIAGE SYSTEM, HINDU SCRIPTURES AND DOWRY AND BRIDE-BURNING IN INDIA by Ram Narayan Tripathi The paper of Ram Narayan Tripathi is a survey of the traditional forms of Hindu marriage through thr scriptures and its connection with the modern crime of dowry and bride-burning in India. The author asserts that it is hard to comprehend that the ancient scriptures of India which propounded the social laws with understanding, logic, justice and wisdom, thereby establishing one of the most enduring civilization of mankind, suddenly became illogical and started to retch outrageous customs like dowry and bride-burning "which are just one step better than cannibalism". According to Tripathi, the only explanation appears to be a period of overall decadence during which individuals survived by sacrificing many values, which resulted in degeneration of all dimensions of life, including corruption of some scriptures. The period of degeneration continued for such a long time that it became a second nature of the people, and they forgot how the customs started in the first place. It will be worthwhile to undertake an intensive study of this period of Indian history. LITTLE DOWRY, NO SAT?: THE LOT OF WOMEN IN THE VEDIC PERIOD by Michael E. J. Witzel This paper focuses on two main topics: sat? and dowry in Vedic times. The wife was bound to her new family for life, and beyond it. Whether she had to follow her husband to the other world at the time of his death or shortly afterwards, has been a keen topic of discussion. ?gveda 10.18.8 talks about the return of the widow to her settlement, together with her relatives. In Atharvaveda 18.3.1 this argument is further expanded. These passages indicate clearly that a widow was not to be buried or cremated with her husband. The Ka?ha Sa?hit?, Br?hma?a and Ara?yaka as well as their S?tras are silent on the topic. In short: there was no sat? in the Vedic texts, from the ?gveda down to the Upani?ads and the S?tras. In the case of dowry, even less material is visible from the early Vedic period. However, even in the ?V there are a few indications of the right of women to inherit. Rightful heirs are the brotherless maidens, the appointed daughters (appointed by her sonless father to give him a grandson who will continue his lineage), the widow who temporarily marries the brother of the deceased sonless husband to produce a male child who would be counted as a son of the deceased husband (niyoga practice). In the post-?gvedic texts, the Br?hma?as, it is clear that a woman was regarded as the possession of her husband, and generally in a socially lower position. In some text there is a form of "a bride price" to get a husband for the daughter. On the other hand, dowry in a mild form existed as well: at the time of marriage, the father of the bride gave presents to the bridegroom. These gifts were expressively called mutual between the groom and the bride or their families. In Vedic India, the wife did not have her own possessions, she did not even own herself. On the other hand, the wife was "a queen in her own house". The lot of Vedic women was that a women is never independent as an unmarried woman, as a wife, and as a mother. She had to be protected respectively by her father, her husband, her son. If women, especially brotherless maidens, were freer than they were in later India, their freedom was restricted in many ways. Bride burning or dowry deaths, of course, did not occur at all. Dowry did exist at the time, but is was given in a framework of mutual exchange between the two families involved. Vol. 3, No. 1: ENTERING THE WORLD OF A NON-CONVENTIONAL WOMAN: TWO EVENINGS WITH TASLIMA NASRIN by Enrica Garzilli This is a report of two evenings spent together with Taslima Nasrin in April 1996 in Cambridge (U.S.A.). Nasrin is a poet and a writer; she is the 1995 Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought. Nasrin came to Cambridge to deliver lectures. During the first, informal meeting and dinner, Garzilli approached Nasrin as a woman and a friend, trying to be on the same side, to understand her, and to go through her public, dramatic personality as controversial and criticized writer and polemist, and as a symbol of freedom for thousand women writers in the world. THE PERILS OF FREE SPEECH by Taslima Nasrin Taslima Nasrin gave this lecture in April 26, 1996 in Cambridge, Massachusetts (U.S.A.). It has never been published so far. It is about women who want to be writers and poets. It is about herself and her problems to be a writer in Bangladesh nowadays. Difficulties are both due to Islamic fundamentalism, and to the general idea that women education would ruin the family. Educated girls would forget their rituals, neglect their husbands and their families. In reaction to the initial attempts at educating the girls, it was spread the idea that women, if educated, would become widows, which means their husbands would die. Another common idea is that they educated women would loose their virtue. There is a saying in Bengali to the effect that if women put on shoes the lunch is spoiled. Muslim working women are still very rare in middle class families; many are forced to work for wages but mostly in the informal sector like private tutoring, or they are teachers at schools, colleges, hospitals and a few other types of institutions. In this situation one can hardly expect hundreds of women to take up the pen. There are women among authors and journalists in Bangladesh, but there are few in number. The problem grows up when a women of Bangladesh want to do some really creative writing. As long as a woman writes on males, stories or poems, as long she imitates male writer's style and subject matters, as long she follows the beaten track, as long as she remains conformist, she will be all right. But if someone starts telling what she really means, editors and publishers are bound to raise their eyebrows. Indeed, the moment a girl in Bangladeshi society starts writing, the first reaction of men is that there must be something wrong with her. Why should a happy housewife want to write? Men think girls with problems usually take refuge in the mental asylum or become prostitute or commit suicide. And those who cannot do either, they pick up the pen and shamelessly intrude into the men's world. The paper goes on telling about questions, comments, and speculations on herself. Nasrin describes her track and problems to be as she is: a free, atheist woman writer in a Muslim patriarchal country. The talk is followed by her reading of poems, and by more than one hour of questions and answers with the audience. *********************** END ************************** Details on the book will follow. Thank you, EG -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli Univ. of Perugia (ITALY) Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india/) Mng. Editor, (http://www.shore.net/~india/ejvs/) ************************************************************* From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Sat May 24 23:32:41 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Sat, 24 May 97 18:32:41 -0500 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030463.23782.13891605866130716061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know how Jain kings / rulers handled violence? I recently learned that a few Jains ruled in Karnataka and elsewhere over the millennia. Given their unstinting dedication to non-violence on the one hand and the necessity of violence in ruling and defending a kingdom on the other, I wonder how they resolved it. Are there any Jain treatises on raajaniiti or any descriptions of what they actually did? Fred Smith Univ. of Iowa From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sun May 25 09:50:06 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 25 May 97 11:50:06 +0200 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030465.23782.16149309861557459298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fred Smith wrote: >Does anyone know how Jain kings / rulers handled violence? I recently >learned that a few Jains ruled in Karnataka and elsewhere over the >millennia. Given their unstinting dedication to non-violence on the one >hand and the necessity of violence in ruling and defending a kingdom on >the other, I wonder how they resolved it. Are there any Jain treatises on >raajaniiti or any descriptions of what they actually did? While we are on the subject of Jains, does anybody know about Jain cosmologies/cosmogonies/sociogonies? I am interested in a) references to scholarly books about such themes, and b) references to Jaina scriptures treating these themes. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Sun May 25 22:04:18 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Sun, 25 May 97 14:04:18 -0800 Subject: (Fwd.) Max Mueller (Part 2 of 2) Message-ID: <161227030466.23782.11206547135766031095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just got back from LA and found a "help!" message from Howard Resnick, who several days ago tried to post the following reply, unsuccessfully. Forwarded message starts here: In reply to George Thompson, Greg Downing wrote: >He (MM) is right that people are creating myth by a "disease of >>language" if people think fire is a god and there is in fact (for the sake >>of the argument) no actual fire-god as a personal agency. But that does not >>exclude the possibility that people also see abstract and natural phenomena >>for what they are, and are simply trying to express that poetically or >>allegorically when looking at things through the lens of myth. As scholars, we should first admit that there is no feature or aspect of an academic education that qualifies one, as a scholar, to say that there is, or that there is not, a god of fire. This is a religious issue, and only a hopeless logical positivist would argue that we must reject a god of fire on "scientific" grounds. To affirm or deny a particular proposition places one in the identical realm of discourse. An algebra teacher that marks a student's answer right or wrong requires the same knowledge. To affirm that Agni is the god of fire is no more a religious utterance than to deny that he is and thus proceed to a discussion of how and why a community "created" this notion. Howard Resnick Adjunt Professor Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, California From thompson at jlc.net Sun May 25 22:41:37 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sun, 25 May 97 18:41:37 -0400 Subject: (Fwd.) Max Mueller (Part 2 of 2) Message-ID: <161227030468.23782.10030478525249703402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Howard Resnick's remarks: > As scholars, we should first admit that there is no feature or >aspect of an >academic education that qualifies one, as a scholar, to say that there is, or >that there is not, a god of fire. This is a religious issue, and only a >hopeless logical positivist would argue that we must reject a god of fire on >"scientific" grounds. To affirm or deny a particular proposition places one >in the identical realm of discourse. An algebra teacher that marks a >student's answer right or wrong requires the same knowledge. To affirm that >Agni is the god of fire is no more a religious utterance than to deny that he >is and thus proceed to a discussion of how and why a community "created" this >notion. >Howard Resnick >Adjunt Professor >Graduate Theological Union, >Berkeley, California It seems to me that if a Vedic poet, say DIrghatamas, is capable of doubting the existence of Agni, among a number of other gods, then we should be able to be a little tolerant of Greg Downey's apparent doubts, especially since he hedges them with a parenthesis: "(for the sake of the argument)." Also, if I recall, it is very Vedic to be polite to guests. Sincerely, George Thompson From Hrid at aol.com Mon May 26 02:40:26 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 97 22:40:26 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030470.23782.6189845884654136603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson stated: It seems to me that if a Vedic poet, say DIrghatamas, is capable of >doubting the existence of Agni, among a number of other gods, then we >should be able to be a little tolerant of Greg Downey's apparent doubts, >especially since he hedges them with a parenthesis: "(for the sake of the >argument)." If my comments were perceived as a personal criticism of Greg Downey, I sincerely apologize. My point is simple and general: if any of us, including Dirghatamas, states that a god exists or doesn't exist, we speak not as "neutral" scholars but as metaphysicians. This alone was my argument. Howard Resnick From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Mon May 26 11:19:55 1997 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 07:19:55 -0400 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030482.23782.741889873966959453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A pair of book review essays that are generally revelant to this topic have just appeared in _Religious Studies Review_, v.23, no.2 (April 1997). The first is by John E. Cort and the Second by Paul Dundas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gene Thursby http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de Mon May 26 09:09:59 1997 From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 11:09:59 +0200 Subject: D. D. Kosambi's works Message-ID: <161227030476.23782.5655228782491654046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am surprised to see that D.D. Kosambi's well-known work: Myth and reality : studies in the formation of Indian culture (Popular Prakashan, Bombay, 1962 & Sangam Books, London, 1983) is not available (!?) in Germany. I tried through Inter-Library-Loan (=Fernleihe) also, but no luck so far! Also, I see the following three commemoration volumes in Kosambi's honour, in US on-line catalogues, but not in German ones. Your help in acquiring these four books in Germany is highly appreciated. 1. D. D. Kosambi commemoration volume / chief editor, Lallanji Gopal ; editors, Jai Prakash Singh, Nisar Ahmad & Dipak Malik. Varanasi D. D. Kosambi Commemoration Committee, Banaras Hindu University, 1977 2. Indian society : historical probings, in memory of D. D. Kosambi / edited by R. S. Sharma in collaboration with Vivekanand Jha. 2d ed. New Delhi People's Pub. House, 1977, c1974 3. Science and human progress : essays in honour of late Prof. D. D. Kosambi, scientist, indologist, and humanist / [Prof. D. D. Kosambi Commemoration Committee] ; foreword by V. V. Giri. Bombay : Popular Prakashan, 1974 Thanks in advance! Regards, Sreenivas P.S. I could find the following commemoration volume in a micro-fiche catalogue: Dr. D.D. Kosambi memorial volume : Festschrift Ed. P.V. Kane, Bombay, Asiatic Society, 1970, 304s. -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon May 26 09:13:59 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 11:13:59 +0200 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030478.23782.8256926032327442755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Royce Wiles wrote: >In addition to what my friend Eiichi has suggested I would add that the >best overall scholarly treatment of Jain cosmography is still probably: > > Willibal Kirfel > > Die Kosmographie der Inder : nach Quellen dargestellt. > Bonn : Kurt Schroeder, 1920. > [Reprint: Hildesheim : Georg Olms, 1967.] > >His references are to older editions, generally unavailable, but maybe in >Hamburg you can see all those editions still. On p. 208-209 he gives a list >of the main scriptural sources (Svetambara and Digambara). > >Then there is > > Ravi Kumar and Collette Caillat. 1981. > The Jain cosmology. > Basel : R. Kumar, 1981. Thank you Royce! This should get me started. I assume the 1981 book has the relevant bibliographic information concerning scholarly work older than 1980. Info on newer scholarly work would still be welcome if any of you netters should happen to know about it! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon May 26 19:16:52 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 12:16:52 -0700 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030490.23782.12371412185536081476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:50 AM 5/26/97 BST, Howard Resnick wrote: >George Thompson stated: >It seems to me that if a Vedic poet, say DIrghatamas, is capable of >>doubting the existence of Agni, among a number of other gods, then we >>should be able to be a little tolerant of Greg Downey's apparent doubts, >>especially since he hedges them with a parenthesis: "(for the sake of the >>argument)." > If my comments were perceived as a personal criticism of Greg Downey, I >sincerely apologize. My point is simple and general: if any of us, including >Dirghatamas, states that a god exists or doesn't exist, we speak not as >"neutral" scholars but as metaphysicians. This alone was my argument. >Howard Resnick With all due respect, Howard, how does your professed concern for scholarly "neutrality" (if I understand you correctly) square with the following words, from the introduction to: Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, vol. 1. "Translating, Translations, Translators, From India to the West." Edited by Enrica Garzilli, 1996. The paper of Howard Resnick expresses a peculiar point of view. Since 1969 he has been a member of the religious GauDIya Vaishnava movement (ISKCON). Currently Resnick, under the initiatic name of Hridayananda D. Goswami, is the Minister for Academic Affairs in the ISKCON. His translation from Sanskrit of one of the most important texts of the religious movement to which he belongs has to be put within the interpretative boundaries of the spiritual line of his teachers, the paramparA. "A Vaishnava must accept and repeat the words of the paramparA teachers in order to be recognized as a member of the sampradAya, the authorized spiritual community. Similarly, only a proven member of the sampradAya will be eligible to represent the paramparA". This adhesion to spiritual tradition can be a limit for scholarly translation; it can also be a benefit to the too often dry and scholastic interpretative main-frame of any translation. (Downloaded from: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ttt.html) All the best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Mon May 26 11:26:44 1997 From: KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 12:26:44 +0100 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030480.23782.5654586244121336780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The bibliography in the catalogue on Jain art entitled 'The peaceful liberators : Jaina art from India' (edited by Pratapaditya Pal, Los Angeles etc., 1995) contains many useful references to more recent literature (both monographs and articles) on Jaina art, religious views, mythology, cosmography, pilgrimage etc. Ellen Raven Editor for South Asia ABIA - South and Southeast Asian Art and Archaeology Index International Institute for Asian Studies Leiden e-mail: abiaraven at rullet.LeidenUniv.NL or: kernlibrvn at rullet.LeidenUniv.NL From guccie at ariake-nct.ac.jp Mon May 26 05:32:02 1997 From: guccie at ariake-nct.ac.jp (guccie at ariake-nct.ac.jp) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 14:32:02 +0900 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030472.23782.15814100983858982061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have you checked the following articles? Paul Dundas: The Tenth Wonder: Domestication and Reform in Medieval Svetambara Jainism, Indologica Taurinensia vol.14(1987-8), pp.181-94 Paul Dundas: The Digambara Jain Warrior, "The Assembly of Listeners: Jains in Society" eds. by M. Carrithers and C. Humphrey, Cambridge University Press 1991, pp.169-186. --- Eiichi Yamaguchi guccie at ariake-nct.ac.jp Lecturer, Ariake National College of Technology 150 Higashi-Hagio, Omuta 836 JAPAN http://tsubaki.ge.ariake-nct.ac.jp/~guccie/ Phone:+81-(0)944-53-8651 From thillaud at unice.fr Mon May 26 12:32:09 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 14:32:09 +0200 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030484.23782.17396156596064698388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 4:48 +0200 26/05/97, Hrid at aol.com wrote: >George Thompson stated: >It seems to me that if a Vedic poet, say DIrghatamas, is capable of >>doubting the existence of Agni, among a number of other gods, then we >>should be able to be a little tolerant of Greg Downey's apparent doubts, >>especially since he hedges them with a parenthesis: "(for the sake of the >>argument)." > If my comments were perceived as a personal criticism of Greg Downey, I >sincerely apologize. My point is simple and general: if any of us, including >Dirghatamas, states that a god exists or doesn't exist, we speak not as >"neutral" scholars but as metaphysicians. This alone was my argument. >Howard Resnick I agree both but, what is 'existence' for a God ? I respect all Gods (except perhaps the angry and jealous Yahve and the other Lords of War and Punishment) because they are linked to the best of human life. I do domestic sacrifices to Ganesha, Sarasvati, Hermes, Aphrodite, Athena and Dionysos because I'm in feeling with their 'sense'. I believe they are helping me, but I have no trust in their existence. Perhaps I'm a sort of fool ? Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From elfn at antares.com.br Mon May 26 21:41:11 1997 From: elfn at antares.com.br (Edgard Leite) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 14:41:11 -0700 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030488.23782.17797724108986439118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique.Thillaud wrote: I believe they are helping me, but I have no trust in their existence. Perhaps I'm a sort of fool ? Dominique Dear Dominique I don't think so. I don't believe in gods or Iahve, but I think the religious feeling is a so beatiful feeling. Edgard Leite Rio de Janeiro State University - Brazil. From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Mon May 26 13:59:55 1997 From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 14:59:55 +0100 Subject: D. D. Kosambi's works Message-ID: <161227030486.23782.8534571704021631027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sreenivas, I checked the works at our card catalogue - they are all in Tuebingen! To avoid further complications with your 'Fernleihe' please TELL the people in your library to send the orders directly to the Sondersammel-Gebiet in Tuebingen. Here are the shelf numbers: > Myth and reality : studies in the formation of Indian culture (Popular Prakashan, Bombay, 1962 & Sangam Books, London, 1983) (21=Tuebingen) 10 A 6517 > Also, I see the following three commemoration volumes in Kosambi's honour, > in US on-line catalogues, but not in German ones. Your help in acquiring these > four books in Germany is highly appreciated. > 1. D. D. Kosambi commemoration volume / chief editor, Lallanji Gopal editors, Jai Prakash Singh, Nisar Ahmad & Dipak Malik. Varanasi D. D. Kosambi Commemoration Committee, Banaras Hindu University, 1977 (21) 18 B 479 > 2. Indian society : historical probings, in memory of D. D. Kosambi / edited by R. S. Sharma in collaboration with Vivekanand Jha. 2d ed. New Delhi People's Pub. House, 1977, c1974 (21) 16 A 7457 3. Science and human progress : essays in honour of late Prof. D. D. Kosambi, scientist, indologist, and humanist / [Prof. D. D. Kosambi Commemoration Committee] ; foreword by V. V. Giri. Bombay : Popular Prakashan, 1974 (21) 16 A 3323 > P.S. I could find the following commemoration volume in a micro-fiche catalogue: > Dr. D.D. Kosambi memorial volume : Festschrift > Ed. P.V. Kane, Bombay, Asiatic Society, 1970, 304s. This is part of the Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bombay; N.S. 43/44 and therefore should be ordered as such. That Journal you should find in your state as well. If you must, you can order the volume from us, shelf number (21) Ci I 1b-43/44 So, I hope this helps. So long Gabriele ---------------------------------------------------------- Dr Gabriele Zeller Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 72016 Tuebingen Tel:+49-7071-2974030 Fax:+49-7071-293123 http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub ---------------------------------------------------------- From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Mon May 26 07:06:34 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:06:34 +1000 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030474.23782.2645249142753572318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >While we are on the subject of Jains, does anybody know about Jain >cosmologies/cosmogonies/sociogonies? I am interested in a) references to >scholarly books about such themes, and b) references to Jaina scriptures >treating these themes. In addition to what my friend Eiichi has suggested I would add that the best overall scholarly treatment of Jain cosmography is still probably: Willibal Kirfel Die Kosmographie der Inder : nach Quellen dargestellt. Bonn : Kurt Schroeder, 1920. [Reprint: Hildesheim : Georg Olms, 1967.] His references are to older editions, generally unavailable, but maybe in Hamburg you can see all those editions still. On p. 208-209 he gives a list of the main scriptural sources (Svetambara and Digambara). Then there is Ravi Kumar and Collette Caillat. 1981. The Jain cosmology. Basel : R. Kumar, 1981. with colour reproductions of many illustrations (cosmographical and otherwise) from Jain technical manuscripts ... Royce Wiles Royce Wiles Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 From efb3 at columbia.edu Mon May 26 23:15:48 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 19:15:48 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030497.23782.2058949013177359479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 26 May 1997, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > At 03:50 AM 5/26/97 BST, Howard Resnick wrote: > >George Thompson stated: > >It seems to me that if a Vedic poet, say DIrghatamas, is capable of > >>doubting the existence of Agni, among a number of other gods, then we > >>should be able to be a little tolerant of Greg Downey's apparent doubts, > >>especially since he hedges them with a parenthesis: "(for the sake of the > >>argument)." > > If my comments were perceived as a personal criticism of Greg Downey, I > >sincerely apologize. My point is simple and general: if any of us, including > >Dirghatamas, states that a god exists or doesn't exist, we speak not as > >"neutral" scholars but as metaphysicians. This alone was my argument. > >Howard Resnick > > With all due respect, Howard, how does your professed concern for scholarly > "neutrality" (if I understand you correctly) square with the following > words, from the introduction to: > > Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, vol. 1. "Translating, Translations, > Translators, From India to the West." Edited by Enrica Garzilli, 1996. > > Louis, Howard's comment, as I read it, is neither promoting scholarly neutrality nor advocating metaphysical bias. It is merely dilineating the respective boundaries of the two. How, then, is the posting of his personal theological orientations, taken from a completely different context, relevant to the argument he is making here? Edwin Bryant From thompson at jlc.net Tue May 27 00:18:45 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 20:18:45 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030498.23782.7092489456858575851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin, Let me remind you of Howard's original post: As scholars, we should first admit that there is no feature or >aspect of an >academic education that qualifies one, as a scholar, to say that there is, or >that there is not, a god of fire. This is a religious issue, and only a >hopeless logical positivist would argue that we must reject a god of fire on >"scientific" grounds. To affirm or deny a particular proposition places one >in the identical realm of discourse. An algebra teacher that marks a >student's answer right or wrong requires the same knowledge. To affirm that >Agni is the god of fire is no more a religious utterance than to deny that he >is and thus proceed to a discussion of how and why a community "created" this >notion. First, Howard says that questioning the existence of a god is off-limits for scholars. Second, he says that anyone who adopts the religious view that there is no such thing as a god of fire must be "a hopeless logical positivist." Then he says that yea-sayers and nay-sayers are all in the same boat [of discourse]. Then follows an unintelligible remark about algebra teachers. Finally, he denies that the religious view that Agni exists is a more religious view than the religious view that Agni doesn't exist. Oh yes, then there is something about someone [I don't know who] proceeding to a discussion about a community creating some notion [I don't know what]. Have I left anything out or badly misunderstood something? Edwin, please tell me, what boundaries, exactly, is Howard delineating here? Honestly, this post rather looked to me like a rant than an argument. George From Hrid at aol.com Tue May 27 01:16:04 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 21:16:04 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030500.23782.5987262869035713321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/26/97 3:32:39 PM, reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) wrote: >With all due respect, Howard, how does your professed concern for scholarly >"neutrality" (if I understand you correctly) square with the following >words, from the introduction to: > >Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, vol. 1. "Translating, Translations, >Translators, From India to the West." Edited by Enrica Garzilli, 1996. Dear Luis, Thank you for your inquiry. The concern I expressed in this discussion was for a clear distinction between claims made as an academic scholar, and claims made as a metaphysician. I did not mean to imply that academic claims are a priori superior or inferior to metaphysical claims. Dr. Garzilli, in her preface to my article in the Harvard Oriental Series publication, mentions that I translated and published several works from a Vaishnava religious perspective. In those volumes, which I completed over a decade ago, I made no pretense of speaking from a "neutral" academic perspective. I am arguing here for a clear distinction between academic and religious speech. I believe that in the works cited by Garzilli, I maintained such a distinction. Thanks again, and with best wishes, Howard From asia at server.uwindsor.ca Tue May 27 02:40:10 1997 From: asia at server.uwindsor.ca (Inst. Of Asian Cultures) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 22:40:10 -0400 Subject: Jaina View of War, Warrior and Violence (was Jainism and Violence) Message-ID: <161227030502.23782.7278388208590154767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Note: Long Posting] Jaina View of War, Warrior and Violence Though Jainism and ahimsa are inseparable, and Jainism has often been seen through its mendicants, some of whom have taken the practice of ahimsa to its extreme, it nevertheless attracted a good number of the kshatriyas to its fold. This would appear to be a contradiction since martialism and non-violence (ahimsa), the corner-stone of Jaina philosophy, are not complementary. It is therefore quite interesting to raise the question of war, warrior and violence vis-a-vis Jainism. The spirit of martialism in Jainism is manifest in its very own name (Jain meaning a conqueror), and the epithet accorded to the last Jain _tirthankar_ of our present yuga is Mahavir, i.e., the great hero. In fact the first hero of Jaina lore, the greatest hero of all, and the first one to achieve moksa, according to certain Jaina traditions, is Bahubali (one with strong arms -- one of the many definitions of Bahubali). The story of Bahubali, son of Rishabha, the first tirthankar, is told, among others, in Jinasena's _Adi-Purana_ where Jainism is described as a weapon of war (1.4), the various ascetic practices are compared to an army which conquers the enemy, karma (4.153 etc.), and the monk is instructed to abandon his body like that of an enemy on the battlefield (11.98) (see Paul Dundas, "Jain Digambar Warrior" (=DJW), in Carrithers and Humphreys, _Assembly of Listeners_ pp. 173-4). Though Bahubali did defeat his elder brother Bharata in the battlefield, he did so in a non-violent fashion. Having won the war, Bahubali abandoned his claim over the territory and renounced the world. "The pivotal position which the Jain religion gives to non- violence is (not necessarily) at variance with being patronised by 'practising' warrior adherents. In fact, Jainism has always been ambivalent about war (see Jaini, _Jaina Path of Purification_ p. 313), and two examples testify to the existence of Jain practitioners of warfare at completely different periods of Jain history. The Pali canon refers to a Jain general (senapati) called Siha, contemporary with Mahavira and the Buddha, who was a Jain layman (niganthasavaka) while, two thousand years later, in the sixteenth century A.D. and afterwards, Jains participated in what Bayley has called the 'all-India military culture' (C.A. Bayley, "The pre-history of 'communalism': religious conflict in India 1700-1860", _Modern Asian Studies_ 19 (1985), 183) and fought in the armies of the Mughal emperors. However, despite this, Indian historians of the Deccan have always been uneasy when attempting to account for the undoubtedly violent activities of the many rulers who were connected with Jainism in the medieval period, often expressing bafflement at the incongruity involved" (see, S.R. Sharma, _Jainism and Karnataka Culture_, Dharwar, 1940, p. 148). "In fact, it does seem likely that total adherence to the principles of non-violence was of importance only in certain specific and precisely defined religious contexts, such as ritual or contact with a monk, and that non-violence did not inform broader issues, such as a king's obligation to expand his kingdom. In the light of this, it has to be asked why kings and warriors were attracted to Jainism and wherein lay their 'Jainness'; did they actively espouse and promote Jainism or merely protect it?" (Dundas, op. cit. DJW, pp. 174-5). Professor Basham has noted, that "despite its nonviolence, Jainism never strongly opposed militarism; several great Jain kings were conquerors, and the ideal Jain king, Kumarapala, who is said to have enforced vegetarianism throughout his realm, is nowhere said to have given up warfare. No Jain monarch had the enlightened sentiments of Ashoka in this respect, and nowhere in the whole body of Jain literature is a plea for peace between states to be found such as that in the Buddhist _Excellent Golden Light Sutra_. Yet, in normal personal relations, ahimsa is repeatedly stated to be the greatest virtue" (_Sources of Indian Tradition_ (=SIT), ed. by de Bary, 1958, pp. 89-90). In fact, several works on Jaina polity, the most famous of them being Somadeva's _Nitivakyamritam_, accord the same rights and duties to Jaina kings in defending their kingdoms and subjects as do other Indian texts on polity. But still Jaina view of the warrior is not of a knight with a shining armour on a white horse, or a soldier engulfed in a battlefield but that of an ascetic soldier fighting to conquer his passions (see, for example, Nemi's reply to Indra in _Uttardhyayana Sutra_, 9). Here lies a small but special difference between a Jain hero and other heroes. Though born as princes (all the Jain _tirthankaras_ were kshatriyas), destined to be rulers, the Jain heroes renounce the idea of power over others to achieve victory over themselves. The Jain hero does not conquer territories but conquers himself; hence the term 'jina' (conquerer of self) from which the word Jain comes. However, when duty calls, a Jain ruler, king, general or soldier must defend his kingdom and subjects as required by his dharma. _Virodhi-himsa_ for lay professionals, like soldiers, is permissible in Jainism. Sushil Jain Institute of Asian Cultures @ University of Windsor From bpj at netg.se Mon May 26 21:33:19 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 23:33:19 +0200 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030493.23782.5233602584095333221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:24 26.5.1997 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Thank you Royce! This should get me started. I assume the 1981 book has the >relevant bibliographic information concerning scholarly work older than >1980. Info on newer scholarly work would still be welcome if any of you >netters should happen to know about it! It would certainly be useful for you to take a look on the question of conflict between non-violence ideals and warfare as a political necessity also from a Buddhist perspective. It is often remarked that Buddhism has a better record than other religions wrt atrocities committed in the name of religion, though there are exceptions, like king Mindon Min of Tathon (now in Burma) who went to war to get hold of a copy of the Tipitaka! I would be very interested in whatever you can find out on the Jain side of the question, btw. Philip _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon May 26 22:08:29 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 00:08:29 +0200 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030495.23782.15122284599886631994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It would certainly be useful for you to take a look on the question of >conflict between non-violence ideals and warfare as a political necessity >also from a Buddhist perspective. It is often remarked that Buddhism has a >better record than other religions wrt atrocities committed in the name of >religion, though there are exceptions, like king Mindon Min of Tathon (now >in Burma) who went to war to get hold of a copy of the Tipitaka! > >I would be very interested in whatever you can find out on the Jain side of >the question, btw. My primary interest is in cosmology/cosmogony, although I also take an interest in Arthashastra. As for politics and violence, I know of very few if any religions that have made it beyond being a small-time sect that were able to contain violence in politics, even if they in principle wanted to. Christianity is a case in point, but I can hardly see that Buddhist and Jaina kings were able to contain violence in the highly competitive world of South Asian politics. Realizing religious ideals are usually the job of specialists, e.g. monks or nuns, or the odd idealistic layman. Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From efb3 at columbia.edu Tue May 27 08:05:35 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 04:05:35 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030506.23782.5924345050493787947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 27 May 1997, George Thompson wrote: > Edwin, > > Let me remind you of Howard's original post: > > As scholars, we should first admit that there is no feature or > >aspect of an > >academic education that qualifies one, as a scholar, to say that there is, or > >that there is not, a god of fire. This is a religious issue, and only a > >hopeless logical positivist would argue that we must reject a god of fire on > >"scientific" grounds. To affirm or deny a particular proposition places one > >in the identical realm of discourse. An algebra teacher that marks a > >student's answer right or wrong requires the same knowledge. To affirm that > >Agni is the god of fire is no more a religious utterance than to deny that he > >is and thus proceed to a discussion of how and why a community "created" this > >notion. > > First, Howard says that questioning the existence of a god is off-limits > for scholars. Second, he says that anyone who adopts the religious view > that there is no such thing as a god of fire must be "a hopeless logical > positivist." Then he says that yea-sayers and nay-sayers are all in the > same boat [of discourse]. Then follows an unintelligible remark about > algebra teachers. Finally, he denies that the religious view that Agni > exists is a more religious view than the religious view that Agni doesn't > exist. Oh yes, then there is something about someone [I don't know who] > proceeding to a discussion about a community creating some notion [I don't > know what]. > > Have I left anything out or badly misunderstood something? > > Edwin, please tell me, what boundaries, exactly, is Howard delineating > here? Honestly, this post rather looked to me like a rant than an argument. > George, I too found Howard's original posting to be a little convoluted (although, in honesty, your analysis of it above seems more of a 'rant' to me than his original statement). However, Howard clarified his point in a subsequent posting and has done so again in his last posting, making his argument quite plain and in no need of further comment from me. My question to Louis remains: why was it considered appropriate, to drag in and broadcast Howard's personal religious orientations when this was irrelevant to the simple point he was making (which was not to advocate scholarly neutrality)? Edwin Bryant > > From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Tue May 27 11:54:01 1997 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 07:54:01 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030521.23782.7844352016872418349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cheers to Howard Resnick for enlivening the discussion. Because I am an amateur at best in Indology, I prefer to read (without comment) the opinions and information that circulates on this excellent list. But in this instance I'll risk a comment and a quotation. Dr. Resnick made an admirable clarification regarding the question of gods: "My point is simple and general: if any of us, including Dirghatamas, states that a god exists or doesn't exist, we speak not as 'neutral' scholars but as metaphysicians. This alone was my argument." It seems unassailable to me, not to say that it should not be assailed on this list. Nevertheless it is a wonderful phenomenological interpretive principle, seldom so well stated as by Dr. Resnick. This context invites quotation from an esteemed Euro-Californian, Ninian Smart. He recently wrote the following in support of the principle as he was commending his own preferred phenomenological term 'focus': "We need a term to stand for the phenomenological object of religious practice and experience. I prefer 'focus', in part because it has a plural ('foci'), whereas 'the ultimate' cannot be very naturally plural and in part because it does not carry any ontological baggage. . . . It does not matter whether Vishnu exists or not -- that is, it does not matter for our purposes, though for the faithful of course it matters -- or whether there is a transcendent ultimate; but we can still recognize that Vishnu is the focus of the Vaishnava's dreams and worship, as Christ is the focus of the Eucharist. . . . "The notion of a focus enables us to talk about worship and other activities in meaningful ways without having to comment on whether there is a Vishnu or a Christ. But it does enable us to think of Vishnu as focus entering into the believer's life, dynamizing his feelings, commanding his loyalty and so on. This is an advantage in discussing a controversial subject like religion. For a believer the focus is real, and we can accept this even if we do not want to say that it (or she or he) exists. I thus distinguish between 'real' and 'existent' as adjectives. The former I use, in this context, to refer to what is phenomenologically real in the experience of the believer. Whether real in this sense exists is an altogether different question." It is a "metaphysical question" (according to Dr. Resnick in his clarification) rather than a phenomenological one. All of this is well-known to all members of the list, and perhaps better put by Resnick than by Smart. However, this kind of distinction is surprisingly easily forgotten and surprisingly seldom consistently put to use by scholars. Cheers to Dr. Resnick for so clearly bringing it to notice! Nothing can be done, of course, about figures such as Dirghatamas -- except to acknowledge that they are not functioning as 'phenomenologists' as much as 'metaphysicians' (when inquiring into Agni as 'existent') and that the great but imaginary line between phenomenology and metaphysics is crossed or ignored again and again in most traditions of discourse and debate -- especially if there are are multiple contenders for the status of 'ultimate' or multiple 'gradations of ultimacy' (how awkwardly stated) assumed. However, what may distinguish the modern scholarly tradition is that it invites, if not demands, observance of the distinction. The quotation, by the way, was from Ninian Smart, _Dimensions of the Sacred: An Anatomy of the World's Beliefs_ (U California P, 1996), p.9. A rather undisciplined book, but one that sums up Smart's work over the decades as a creative conversationalist on the subject of how to converse about traditional texts and belief patterns. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gene Thursby http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ From mgansten at sbbs.se Tue May 27 06:10:19 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 08:10:19 +0200 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030504.23782.4728783422726565650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson writes (first quoting Howard Resnick): >>As scholars, we should first admit that there is no feature or >>aspect of an >>academic education that qualifies one, as a scholar, to say that there is, or >>that there is not, a god of fire. This is a religious issue, and only a >>hopeless logical positivist would argue that we must reject a god of fire on >>"scientific" grounds. [...] >First, Howard says that questioning the existence of a god is off-limits >for scholars. Second, he says that anyone who adopts the religious view >that there is no such thing as a god of fire must be "a hopeless logical >positivist." I hope you'll see, George, that you are very clearly misrepresenting Howard here. The epithet "hopeless logical positivist" in his view (and, I may add, in mine) goes *not* to someone who denies a god's existence on *religious* grounds, but to someone who tries to do so on *scientific* grounds. Science has no say on matters which are beyond investigation; a scientist may certainly speak on them (as may anyone else), but he does so (like everyone else) from a perspective of personal belief. Such a statement is of a religious or metaphysical nature, not scientific, and I believe that is what Howard wished to point out. The rest of the "unintelligible" comments you quote appeared quite clear and intelligible to me. Is there some personal ill-feeling that makes you not want to see his point? Martin Gansten From thompson at jlc.net Tue May 27 12:20:44 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 08:20:44 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030522.23782.6909146485817132712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Howard, Edwin, and Martin, It all began, you will recall, with a discussion of how well M. Mueller's old theories of Vedic mythology stand up against newer theories. A scholar new to the list [Greg *Downing*] made the faux pas of asking, "for the sake of the argument", whether or not Vedic statements re Agni were meant literally or metaphorically. I think it is a legitimate question to ask on this list. Along comes Howard, defending religion from logical positivism. I don't know what kind of hermeneutic principles you all use, but this intervention seemed to me *clearly* to be an attack, pace Howard's "apologies" [notice, he *doesn't* apologize for the attack; he apologizes that it was *perceived* as such. Typical]. Adhering to the principles of philology, I read Howard's post closely [several times], trying to figure out what he meant abt algebra teachers and realms of discourse. Now, in response to the posts of Edwin and Martin, I have read Howard's again, just to see what it was I missed the first times. Well, whatever I missed then I'm still missing. The post is a chaotic rant. My own rant, on the other hand, is an expression of annoyance with a person who claims to be "arguing here for a clear distinction between academic and religious speech." What were Greg Downing and the rest of us engaged in? Whose religious values did we attack? What hidden agendas were we propagating? If you, Howard, Edwin & Martin, want to delineate boundaries between religion and science, be my guest [so to speak]. But I think that Greg Downing and the rest of us should be permitted to discuss Vedic philology without such rude, utterly unwarranted interruptions. There. Now the anger's gone. Back to work. shantih, George From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Tue May 27 16:36:32 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 08:36:32 -0800 Subject: Science & religion &c Message-ID: <161227030529.23782.6030684357802878471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:12 +0100 5/27/97, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: >At 09:09 27.5.1997 +0100, Edwin F Bryant wrote: > >>My question to Louis remains: why was it >>considered appropriate, to drag in and broadcast Howard's >>personal religious orientations when this was irrelevant to the simple >>point he was making (which was not to advocate scholarly neutrality)? >>Edwin Bryant > >Does this mean that you consider it of no consequence what "personal >religious orientations" a scholar holds? Far from finding it desirable to >conceal my own religious orientation I think it is important that it is >known, ... Perhaps a related question would be the following: Would Louis have reacted in exactly the same way if Howard Resnick was (for the sake of the argument) a Catholic bishop in Mexico City or an important Rabbi in New York City? (No offenses intended. No argumentum-ad-hominem intended. Just wishing to be enlightened by the list Re the bottom line.) Regards, Beatrice From Hrid at aol.com Tue May 27 13:21:30 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 09:21:30 -0400 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030524.23782.12378814706289515768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Philip for your useful comments. tubhyaM ca sarva-bhadraNi santu! Howard From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue May 27 08:20:37 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 10:20:37 +0200 Subject: Jaina View of War, Warrior and Violence (was Jainism and Violence) Message-ID: <161227030508.23782.5904364576249526064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sushil Jain wrote: > > > Jaina View of War, Warrior and Violence Thank you, Sushil, for an excellent and interesting email. When the quality is high, a bit of length doesn't matter! Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Tue May 27 17:54:51 1997 From: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Bemmann) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 10:54:51 -0700 Subject: new homepage Message-ID: <161227030510.23782.2229510174660953943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, The project >Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway< of the Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences has a homepage now. It provides an introduction in the project, bibliography, picture gallery etc. Please feel free to visit us at: http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html Sincerely yours, -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstrasse 4 Postfach 102769 D-69017 Heidelberg -- Germany phone: ++49-6221-543276 fax: ++49-6221-543355 e-mail: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From silk at wmich.edu Tue May 27 14:59:12 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 10:59:12 -0400 Subject: mathematics , mysticism...... Message-ID: <161227030527.23782.4297985295304446378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dominique wrote: > > P.S. 1: I don't believe human gestation has anything to do with 9: >273 (statistical duration) : 29.5 (lunar month) = 9.25 and this 0.25 is too >great (birth's moon and conception's mood are not the same!). More: I don't >know how Indians counted the durations before Indian mathematicians, but in >ancient Greece where the Olympic Games were 'pentaeterikoi' (each 'five' >years), human gestation was 10 months. I confess that I am entirely ignorant of mathematics, and I don't understand the first half of this paragraph, but: there is considerable information available about old Indian ideas of embryology and gestation. One interesting fact -- I think it is a fact, and I plan to write about it in the context of a study of the Buddhist text Garbaavakraanti-suutra -- is that discussion of gestation in terms of *weeks* in this text, which almost certainly comes from the Northwest, and probably belongs to the Muulasarvaastivaadins, appears to show Greek influence. Unfortunately this text is not extant in Skt, only Chinese and Tibetan, but probably the word for week is saptaka. The progress through the various embryonic stages is denoted by weeks, and the total gestational period is, if memory serves (I don't have the text at hand) 38 weeks. --- but given my ignorance of the discussion of this thread, perhaps this is all entirely irrelevant! Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From bpj at netg.se Tue May 27 09:15:13 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 11:15:13 +0200 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030512.23782.16880167192948656515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:23 27.5.1997 +0100, Hrid at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/26/97 3:32:39 PM, reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis >Gonzalez-Reimann) wrote: > >>With all due respect, Howard, how does your professed concern for scholarly >>"neutrality" (if I understand you correctly) square with the following >>words, from the introduction to: >> >>Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, vol. 1. "Translating, Translations, >>Translators, From India to the West." Edited by Enrica Garzilli, 1996. > >Dear Luis, > Thank you for your inquiry. The concern I expressed in this discussion >was >for a clear distinction between claims made as an academic scholar, and >claims made as a metaphysician. I did not mean to imply that academic claims >are a priori superior or inferior to metaphysical claims. Dr. Garzilli, in >her preface to my article in the Harvard Oriental Series publication, >mentions that I translated and published several works from a Vaishnava >religious perspective. In those volumes, which I completed over a decade ago, >I made no pretense of speaking from a "neutral" academic perspective. I am >arguing here for a clear distinction between academic and religious speech. I >believe that in the works cited by Garzilli, I maintained such a distinction. >Thanks again, and with best wishes, >Howard Dear Howard, While I have no difficulty in following your argument wrt the duty of science and academic study not to pass judgments of value on its subject of study I have some points (two major ones and one quite minor!) where I can't quite follow you: First: science is not value-neutral, but constitutes itself a value-system and a world-view operating under a set of premises that are agreed-upon rather than 'given', that may or may not be in conflict with other systems of world-explanation. Second: I don't see how my role as a _translator_ would differ substantially depending on whether I identify myself as the upaasaka 'Ngawang Dyiynba (Vaagiishvaradaana in Skt.) or as the scholar Philip Jonsson. The translator's task is to communicate the intentions and connotations of the author of the source text as accurately as possible into the words of the target language, regardless of how he himself values the content of the text. Some degree of scholarship is always needed to capture the range of meanings, connotations and associations of the words and expressions used. Sometimes a translator has to elaborate, either within the text itself or in notes, in order to get the meaning of the text across to the target-language audience, according to what he deems can be expected as "common knowledge" among the audience community, but always the goal must be to represent the original author as accurately as possible. The choice between building these elaborations into the text or giving them in notes is largely one of style, since it is desirable that a translation adheres as closely as possible to a stylistic register as closely corresponding to that of the original as possible. It is clearly the case that a text which in the original is encoded in a style of scholarly or philosophical prose is more amenable to elaboration within the text than a text that is poetic, gnomic or dramatic in form. Things are of course different when acting as a _commentator_. Here I must be aware of and clearly signal where I speak from a scholarly point of view and where I speak from a philosophical religious point of view. I don't think that a total separation is entirely feasible, not least since the scientific views of the scholar and the religious views of the upaasaka are likely to be informed and influenced by one another (and as a Buddhist I may feel like dedicating whatever merit a purely scholarly work of mine may achieve!) But honesty to those who share my beliefs and those who don't alike makes it imperative to clearly state and signal, even physically separate, what is scholarly motivated notes on the text and what is ideologically motivated commentary. Syaat tubhyam sarvam mangalam!! Philip/'Ngawang _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From bpj at netg.se Tue May 27 09:15:19 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 11:15:19 +0200 Subject: Jains and violence Message-ID: <161227030515.23782.8343625659795437740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:10 26.5.1997 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >My primary interest is in cosmology/cosmogony, although I also take an >interest in Arthashastra. As for politics and violence, I know of very few >if any religions that have made it beyond being a small-time sect that were >able to contain violence in politics, even if they in principle wanted to. >Christianity is a case in point, but I can hardly see that Buddhist and >Jaina kings were able to contain violence in the highly competitive world of >South Asian politics. Realizing religious ideals are usually the job of >specialists, e.g. monks or nuns, or the odd idealistic layman. Very true. The post of Sushil Jain makes this point very clearly. I have spoken on the subject with several Tibetan Buddhist teachers. Only one took the hard line that violence was wrong under _any_ circumstances. Most took the view that it is the motivation of the act that matters: violence committed in wilful destructiveness and hate, or in order to further selfish desires and goals would naturally accrue demerit, while defensive violence in order to protect innocent beings from immediate violent agression would in principle be permissible -- with the caveat that the action must be truely driven by compassion, and not by hate or selfish cravings. Not surprisingly Asoka is given as a model of this attitude: while he gave up looting and conquest he did preserve armed forces for purposes of defense and maintaining law, order and the security of his subjects. I would very much appreciate comments on this topic (defense vs. agression) from the point of view of other Indian religions -- Jain, Hindu and Sikh. Philip _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From bpj at netg.se Tue May 27 09:30:18 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 11:30:18 +0200 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030517.23782.52633989368274405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:09 27.5.1997 +0100, Edwin F Bryant wrote: >My question to Louis remains: why was it >considered appropriate, to drag in and broadcast Howard's >personal religious orientations when this was irrelevant to the simple >point he was making (which was not to advocate scholarly neutrality)? >Edwin Bryant Does this mean that you consider it of no consequence what "personal religious orientations" a scholar holds? Far from finding it desirable to conceal my own religious orientation I think it is important that it is known, since it is in any case likely to influence my thinking in all walks of life, including scholarly work and scholarly orientation. I have experienced that my "scholarly seriousness" was called into question because of my Buddhist beliefs -- by an ordained Swedish Lutheran minister acting as a university teacher. The idea that empathy or embracing of the beliefs and values of the 'foreign' cultur one studies would be somehow 'contaminating' for a western scholar or student is IMO outright racist and colonialist, and to those who object to my being openly Buddhist I have only one comment: "Honi soit qui mal y pense"! Philip _ _ . _ _ || Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha || ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Tue May 27 15:41:46 1997 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 11:41:46 -0400 Subject: Internet access to the British Library Catalogue Message-ID: <161227030530.23782.12882666442277415399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the British Library Catalogue information from Dominik. I tried it and got a "no DSN entry" [i.e., no address] message. Is the service already up and running? If so, perhaps it is just too busy at the moment. And, by the way, will be Portico service continue? I've not been able to get through to that URL either. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gene Thursby http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ From mgansten at sbbs.se Tue May 27 10:45:03 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 12:45:03 +0200 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030519.23782.3620522451394347916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Philip B. Jonsson writes: >First: science is not value-neutral, but constitutes itself a value-system >and a world-view operating under a set of premises that are agreed-upon >rather than 'given', that may or may not be in conflict with other systems >of world-explanation. Perhaps this is the main point of disagreement underlying this discussion: how to define science. It appears to me that the word has come to mean two things: firstly, as Philip says, it represents a world-view among others? by standing more or less as a synonym of empirism and being applied chiefly to the natural sciences (with the humanistic disciplines, at least here in Sweden, struggling to imitate them); but secondly, it also represents a *rational ideal* which ought to be adopted by serious scholars, such as are associated with universities, etc. I for one do not accept the view that Science in the second sense is identical with science in the first sense. Rather, I tend to view Science ("ideal" science) as an attitude of unprejudiced pursuit of knowledge, judging each case on its own merits instead of imposing preconceived models of understanding on one's object of investigation. True enough, preconceived notions are very difficult (perhaps impossible) to completely eradicate, but this is no reason to give up the ideal. The closer we get to it, the better scientists we are -- just as a runner is a better runner the closer he gets to his unattainable ideal of making the distance of 100 m. in 0 seconds. Martin Gansten From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Tue May 27 18:25:10 1997 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 13:25:10 -0500 Subject: sanketi tamil Message-ID: <161227030532.23782.11468934897063820418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm looking for bibliographical references on Sanketi Tamil, a dialect spoken in parts of Karnataka. I've uncovered one or two essays (by H. S. Ananthanarayana) dealing with sound changes, but is there anything of greater scope (a grammar, for instance)? Any assistance would be appreciated. Thanks, Adi Hastings Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics University of Chicago amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue May 27 14:27:30 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 15:27:30 +0100 Subject: Internet access to the British Library Catalogue Message-ID: <161227030526.23782.5687276748161210290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can now get free internet access to the British Library Catalogue. The service was launched last week (remote access was previously available only by subscription to BLAISE). The address is: http://opac97.bl.uk I do not need to stress the value of this new service for indologists. The British Library includes the collections of the former British Museum and the India Office Library and Records. Until 1947 the BM and IOLR received (in theory) one copy of every book published in India. Opac97 - as it's known - covers the following: - Original BL catalogue (c.1450-1975) and its successors. - Humanities & social sciences and the Science Reference and Information Service. - Boston Spa: Document Supply Centre holdings of books and reports from 1980; conference proceedings form 1964; journals from 1700. A link will shortly be added to the INDOLOGY libraries page. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue May 27 22:43:49 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 15:43:49 -0700 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030536.23782.15724560820064527510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 27 May 1997, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: [..] > > dear mr. philip > > let's not indulge ourselves to much in arguments ad hominem. > first of all, i agree with most of what has been said in this thread on the > issue of 'existence of god(s)'. ontology is not science, it's philosophy. a > scientific discussion can deal with the question WHAT a god is, not THAT a god > is. moreover it's useless: quantumphysics will never be able to prove the > existence of quarks, nor geometry the existence of PI. if anybody wants to > discuss the existence of god(s), let's begin with finding out what we mean > with 'existence' and 'god(s)' It would be nice if the word 'scientific' could be replaced by 'logical' or 'rational' in the above. For an entity as elusive as god(s), science can contribute almost nothing to a discussion on *what* a god is, let alone prove or disprove *that* a god is. In a discussion of agni and dIrghatamas, contemporary science just has to keep silent. > science is as succesfull as it is, because it doesn't need to answere any of > these questions, this makes it possible that f.i. a swedish lutheran and a Although most science adheres to a philosophy of logical positivism, theories like quantum mechanics make scientists worry about what is meant by 'existence.' But that is besides the point here. And, although a scientist myself, I see no need to invest the word 'scientific' with the exalted status that it seems to enjoy among non-scientists nowadays. Somehow, being scientific is equated with being certain. Even scientists would disagree with that perception. Vidyasankar From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed May 28 01:20:10 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 18:20:10 -0700 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030539.23782.8683777857445934532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:22 AM 5/27/97 BST, Edwin Bryant wrote: >My question to Louis remains: why was it considered appropriate, to drag in and >broadcast Howard's personal religious orientations when this was irrelevant to the >simple point he was making (which was not to advocate scholarly neutrality)? Dear Edwin, It is not as if, to use a current American metaphor, I were forcing Howard out of the closet. I simply quoted something from an academic publication available to anyone, which, in my opinion (maybe not in yours) was relevant. Both George Thompson and Philip Johnson have stated some things I could have said myself. Why would this be less relevant than, for instance, saying that H.H. Wilson believed Christianity to be superior to Hinduism? (would E. Hoogcarspel consider this gossip?) I still find his translation of the ViSnu PurANa very useful, as I surely would find Howard Resnick's of the BhAgavata if I consulted it. But it is also useful to bear in mind what the religious beliefs of the translator/commentator are, especially if the text under consideration forms an important part of his tradition. From there on, I, and anyone else, is free to give whatever weight or place one wishes to the translator's/commentator's words. What I said above is also true about texts of any religion, when the translation/commentary is made by someone who has a stake in the tradition itself. It can often be a limiting factor, but, depending on what we are researching, it can also provide useful insights into certain aspects of the tradition. But it is also difficult (although, I guess not entirely impossible), as others have already stated, to completely disengage oneself from deeply held religious beliefs and become a scholar of religion as if one were not a participant. Howard's words sounded to me like a defense against a perceived attack on those who chose to believe in a certain god. My posting was not an attack either on Howard Resnick nor on his beliefs. But his words about a "hopeless logical positivist" did seem to me as an unwarranted attack on others. As far as I can tell, nobody on the list was attacking religion and defending science, positivism or whatever, so I don't see the need for such an intense defense of one's right to believe in Agni, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, or any other god. Not on this list, at any rate. And, anyway, who is to judge that a "logical positivist" (which, by the way, I'm not) is more hopeless than a religious believer. Best, Luis From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed May 28 01:28:34 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 18:28:34 -0700 Subject: Science & religion &c Message-ID: <161227030541.23782.11451698604629857508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:03 PM 5/27/97 BST, Beatrice Reusch wrote: >At 11:12 +0100 5/27/97, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: >>At 09:09 27.5.1997 +0100, Edwin F Bryant wrote: >> >>>My question to Louis remains: why was it >>>considered appropriate, to drag in and broadcast Howard's >>>personal religious orientations when this was irrelevant to the simple >>>point he was making (which was not to advocate scholarly neutrality)? >>>Edwin Bryant >> >>Does this mean that you consider it of no consequence what "personal >>religious orientations" a scholar holds? Far from finding it desirable to >>conceal my own religious orientation I think it is important that it is >>known, ... > >Perhaps a related question would be the following: >Would Louis have reacted in exactly the same way if Howard Resnick was (for >the sake of the argument) a Catholic bishop in Mexico City or an important >Rabbi in New York City? Absolutely. In this respect I am equidistant to remarks by Howard Resnick, a Lubavitcher Rabbi from New York, or the Pope in Rome. You could also add the Dalai Lama, a Candomble priest, an Evangelical Christian preacher, a Mormon, a shaman, or anyone else you like. I am neither Catholic nor Jewish (you seem to think I am either, or both!). I do not belong to any religion so, as far as these things are concerned, I have no axe to grind. >(No offenses intended. No argumentum-ad-hominem intended. Just wishing to >be enlightened by the list Re the bottom line.) It did sound like it, though! While we're at it, if disclosure is called upon, it would be interesting to know how many of those who jumped into this discussion to "defend" Howard Resnick have his same religious affiliation. Otherwise, we can just leave it at that. Regards, Luis From thompson at jlc.net Tue May 27 23:51:40 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 19:51:40 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030537.23782.16038609181184882957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Vidyasankar Sundaresan's recent remarks, let me isolate just one sentence: >In a discussion of agni and dIrghatamas, contemporary science just has to >keep >silent. > I have no trouble at all with anything that Vidyasankar says in this post abt science, nor with anything that anybody has said abt science on this thread. But I *knew* that this thread was headed toward a sentence like the one above. I just *knew* it. Maybe this will make my position clear: I am a Vedicist. Not a logical positivist, not a scientist. Not a Hindu or a Buddhist, nor a Muslim or a Christian. I'm not an American. I'm not a father. I'm not anything else at all. I am a Vedicist. As a Vedicist I will not keep silent abt agni and dIrghatamas. I will study them both and I will say exactly what I think abt what I find. If that offends anyone, so be it. George From jehms at globalxs.nl Tue May 27 20:45:10 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 21:45:10 +0100 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030534.23782.2736072139908443051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 27-mei-97 schreef Mr B.Philip.Jonsson: >At 09:09 27.5.1997 +0100, Edwin F Bryant wrote: >>My question to Louis remains: why was it >>considered appropriate, to drag in and broadcast Howard's >>personal religious orientations when this was irrelevant to the simple >>point he was making (which was not to advocate scholarly neutrality)? >>Edwin Bryant >Does this mean that you consider it of no consequence what "personal >religious orientations" a scholar holds? Far from finding it desirable to >conceal my own religious orientation I think it is important that it is >known, since it is in any case likely to influence my thinking in all walks >of life, including scholarly work and scholarly orientation. I have >experienced that my "scholarly seriousness" was called into question >because of my Buddhist beliefs -- by an ordained Swedish Lutheran minister >acting as a university teacher. The idea that empathy or embracing of the >beliefs and values of the 'foreign' cultur one studies would be somehow >'contaminating' for a western scholar or student is IMO outright racist and >colonialist, and to those who object to my being openly Buddhist I have >only one comment: "Honi soit qui mal y pense"! dear mr. philip let's not indulge ourselves to much in arguments ad hominem. first of all, i agree with most of what has been said in this thread on the issue of 'existence of god(s)'. ontology is not science, it's philosophy. a scientific discussion can deal with the question WHAT a god is, not THAT a god is. moreover it's useless: quantumphysics will never be able to prove the existence of quarks, nor geometry the existence of PI. if anybody wants to discuss the existence of god(s), let's begin with finding out what we mean with 'existence' and 'god(s)' science is as succesfull as it is, because it doesn't need to answere any of these questions, this makes it possible that f.i. a swedish lutheran and a buddhist can discuss buddhist texts and cooperate in translating them. those buddhologists and indologists who gossip about the personal convictions of their fellow scolars in a scientific debate are simply degrading there own profession. a completely different matter however is the motivation for investigating certain texts or for becoming a buddhologist or whatever in the first place, which can very well be motivated by personal believes. in most cases it even improves the results of scientific work. it's called 'the context of discovery', while the scientific debate is called 'the context of justification'. this is a duplex ordo which is vital for solid scientific research and debate. -erik hoogcarspel From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed May 28 04:51:47 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 21:51:47 -0700 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030543.23782.55425330753280930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 May 1997, George Thompson wrote: [..] > > As a Vedicist I will not keep silent abt agni and dIrghatamas. I will study > them both and I will say exactly what I think abt what I find. > By all means, do. That is what I'm also saying. Only what a Vedicist says about agni and dIrghatamas can be interesting. Non-vedicists would be better off listening for the most part. Vidyasankar From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed May 28 05:09:17 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 27 May 97 22:09:17 -0700 Subject: sanketi tamil Message-ID: <161227030545.23782.18421079306486283503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 27 May 1997, Adi Hastings wrote: > > I'm looking for bibliographical references on Sanketi Tamil, a dialect > spoken in parts of Karnataka. I've uncovered one or two essays (by H. S. Check the following indirect reference. Kamatcinata_n, A. The Tirunelveli Tamil dialect. [1st ed.]. Annamalainagar, Annamalai University, 1969. Series title: Annamalai University, Chidambaram, India. Dept. of Linguistics Publication, no. 19. Although this is not a direct reference to Sanketi Tamil, a description of Tirunelveli Tamil should be useful background material. The Sanketis migrated from the Shencottah area of Tirunelveli district, and travelling through parts of Kerala, settled in and around the Hassan district of Karnataka. Most Sanketis have moved out of their original village settlements into cities like Bangalore and Madras. Nowadays, they prefer to speak either proper Kannada or proper Tamil, and their particular dialect is vanishing slowly. Vidyasankar From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Wed May 28 15:20:44 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 07:20:44 -0800 Subject: Science & religion &c Message-ID: <161227030558.23782.9751890228032572467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 2:43 +0100 5/28/97, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >At 06:03 PM 5/27/97 BST, Beatrice Reusch wrote: >> if Howard Resnick was (for >>the sake of the argument) > [Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote:] > (you seem to think I am either, or both!) Mine was a rhetorical question. And it was hedged with a parenthetical "(for the sake of the argument)" > While we're at it, if disclosure is called >upon,... Who am I to comment on your personal motivation? I am a student of the Rg Veda and Indo-European linguististics. I am not trained in "psyche-analysis" (in the literal and objective and archaic sense of the word). (No offenses intended. No argumentum-ad-hominem intended.) Best, Beatrice From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Wed May 28 16:16:35 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 08:16:35 -0800 Subject: A personal message to Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Message-ID: <161227030559.23782.5870665668787189631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Luis, I wish you all success in your Mahabharata-yugas project. I also wish to thank you for your thoughtful explanation of the yuga sequence and the yuga names and associated colors in this very forum a couple of weeks ago. This is a topic I knew nothing about, and I learned something from you. Regards, Beatrice From d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de Wed May 28 08:50:14 1997 From: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 10:50:14 +0200 Subject: sanketi tamil Message-ID: <161227030547.23782.13023080340558396753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 27 May 1997, Adi Hastings wrote: > > I'm looking for bibliographical references on Sanketi Tamil, a dialect > spoken in parts of Karnataka. I've uncovered one or two essays (by H. S. > Ananthanarayana) dealing with sound changes, but is there anything of > greater scope (a grammar, for instance)? Any assistance would be > appreciated. > There are only articles on Sanketi Tamil phonology, verbal and nominal morphology: Kempe Gowda, K Phonology of Sanketi Dialect. In: Proceedings of the Third All India Conference of Dravidian Linguists. Dharwad. 1976. pp. 184-213 Ananthanarayana, H. Nominal derivation in Sanketi Tamil. In: International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5:1. Trivandrum. 1976. pp. 108-113 Ananthanarayana, H. The Verb Morphology of Sanketi Tamil. In: Journal of Tamil Studies 27. Madras 1985, pp. 14-21 Ananthanarayana, H. Case System and methathesis in Sanketi Tamil. In: Agesthialingom, S. and Kushalappa Gowda (eds.) Dravidian case System. Annamalainagar: Annamalai University. 1976. pp. 241-262 _____________________________________________________________________________ Thomas Lehmann, e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de South Asia Institute phone: 0049-6221-548908 of the University of Heidelberg, fax: 0049-6221-544998 Dept. of Indology, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bpj at netg.se Wed May 28 10:28:37 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 12:28:37 +0200 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030549.23782.18079307975003754772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:00 28.5.1997, George Thompson wrote: >Maybe this will make my position clear: > >I am a Vedicist. > >Not a logical positivist, not a scientist. Not a Hindu or a Buddhist, nor a >Muslim or a Christian. I'm not an American. I'm not a father. I'm not >anything else at all. I am a Vedicist. > >As a Vedicist I will not keep silent abt agni and dIrghatamas. I will study >them both and I will say exactly what I think abt what I find. > >If that offends anyone, so be it. Honi soit qui mal y pense! Philip From bpj at netg.se Wed May 28 10:28:56 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 12:28:56 +0200 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030550.23782.7432832852575032732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:53 28.5.1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >On Wed, 28 May 1997, George Thompson wrote: > >[..] > >> >> As a Vedicist I will not keep silent abt agni and dIrghatamas. I will study >> them both and I will say exactly what I think abt what I find. >> > >By all means, do. That is what I'm also saying. Only what a Vedicist says >about agni and dIrghatamas can be interesting. Non-vedicists would be >better off listening for the most part. > >Vidyasankar :-) :-) :-) Philip From bpj at netg.se Wed May 28 10:29:05 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 12:29:05 +0200 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030552.23782.322407745000508798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:49 27.5.1997, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: >dear mr. philip > >let's not indulge ourselves to much in arguments ad hominem. Have I done so? It was not my intention, and if I stepped on someone's toes I apologise sincerely! Syaat sarvebhyam sarvam mangalam!! Philip From thillaud at unice.fr Wed May 28 10:30:44 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 12:30:44 +0200 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030554.23782.13337594787035869509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:41 +0200 27/05/97, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: > >First: science is not value-neutral, but constitutes itself a value-system >and a world-view operating under a set of premises that are agreed-upon >rather than 'given', that may or may not be in conflict with other systems >of world-explanation. I agree completely. Using Eliade's definition of a religion as 'founding the reality' it's clear the science is today a new sort of living religion, with cosmogony, origin of life, of mankind, gods (Energy, Entropy, &c.), sacred and hermetic language (mathematics), well-developped magic (technology, flying, far-talking, fireballs, &c.), necromancy (old movies, archeology), clerics (I'm one) with studies, initiation, hierarchy and heretics (I'm one too) and underlying philosophy (the concept of the world's modelisation by scientific theories is platonician). The science is apostolic (a subtle form of neo-coloialism) but, perhaps, the main today's problems come from his lack of an eschatology! >Second: I don't see how my role as a _translator_ would differ >substantially depending on whether I identify myself as the upaasaka >'Ngawang Dyiynba (Vaagiishvaradaana in Skt.) or as the scholar Philip >Jonsson. The translator's task is to communicate the intentions and >connotations of the author of the source text as accurately as possible >into the words of the target language, regardless of how he himself values >the content of the text. Some degree of scholarship is always needed to >capture the range of meanings, connotations and associations of the words >and expressions used. Sometimes a translator has to elaborate, either >within the text itself or in notes, in order to get the meaning of the text >across to the target-language audience, according to what he deems can be >expected as "common knowledge" among the audience community, but always the >goal must be to represent the original author as accurately as possible. >The choice between building these elaborations into the text or giving them >in notes is largely one of style, since it is desirable that a translation >adheres as closely as possible to a stylistic register as closely >corresponding to that of the original as possible. It is clearly the case >that a text which in the original is encoded in a style of scholarly or >philosophical prose is more amenable to elaboration within the text than a >text that is poetic, gnomic or dramatic in form. I don't agree fully: translating a text is not just translating words, syntax and semantic but translating too the *pragmatic*. A law-text must be translated by a law-man. A religious text is not like a novel, it vehicles strong religious intentions and I prefer the translator of a buddhist text to be a buddhist. The exceptions are dead religions (as egyptian one) and too much evolued religions: are bad translated Bible by a protestant or Veda by an hinduist! (warning: I'm saying they are bad translated from philological point of view, not from translator's religious one). And if I recall right, muslim law prohibes the translation of Coran. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Wed May 28 20:54:58 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 12:54:58 -0800 Subject: On some recent discussions Message-ID: <161227030563.23782.11638330136005647167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since I'm indirectly responsible for starting the Agni thread, I thought I'd add some contextual details. While I was out of town, Howard Resnick, who has no experience whatsoever with online lists, was trying to subscribe to Indology and to send in a post. He did not get through. When I got back home I found a copy of his message along with his asking for help. Without reading his note I sent it in on his behalf, and also explained to him how to interact with listproc, how to post to the list, etc. I know Resnick is adept at philosophical and logical discussions, but, in fact, that is not the tone on Indology. Things would have developed differently, perhaps, had Howard Resnick done what Greg Downing did a few weeks ago before he started posting his Max Muller series, namely to explain he was new to the list. Knowing all the above helped me understand the thread that ensued Resnick's first post. The only thing that remains an unanswered question in my mind is the *need* to jump into the Agni discussion with a quote from Garzilli's preface. Yet I have put that to rest. It's not that I have to have all answers in this world. Consider, for example, how long scholars have been struggling with the Rg Veda for. (Thus Walter Maurer dedicates his RV translations to all those who have "endeavored to understand its meaning and convey it to others.") Best, Beatrice From bpj at netg.se Wed May 28 13:30:23 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 15:30:23 +0200 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030556.23782.3115222889036294771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 11:41 +0200 27/05/97, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: > I agree completely. Using Eliade's definition of a religion as >'founding the reality' it's clear the science is today a new sort of living >religion, with cosmogony, origin of life, of mankind, gods (Energy, >Entropy, &c.), sacred and hermetic language (mathematics), well-developped >magic (technology, flying, far-talking, fireballs, &c.), necromancy (old >movies, archeology), clerics (I'm one) with studies, initiation, hierarchy >and heretics (I'm one too) and underlying philosophy (the concept of the >world's modelisation by scientific theories is platonician). The science is >apostolic (a subtle form of neo-coloialism) but, perhaps, the main today's >problems come from his lack of an eschatology! Exactly. Agree with all you say. Hawking has tried to supply an eschatology as well, but hasn't been totally successful. > I don't agree fully: translating a text is not just translating >words, syntax and semantic but translating too the *pragmatic*. Still it is the translators duty, irrespective of his own tenets, to convey the pragmatics *of the author*. This means that the translator must be familiar with the subject matter and with the cultural context, including the beliefs and values of the author -- the more the better --, but it doesn't mean that the translator *has to share* the culture, beliefs or values of the author. Indeed it is not always possible: I may be a co-religionist of Asanga's (for example), but the religion has evolved since then, so _my_ Buddhism isn't exactly the same as his, nor is it possible for me to actually partake of the reality in which he lived and wrote. >one). And if I recall right, muslim law prohibes the translation of Coran. AFAIK it is permissible to translate the Qur'an, but a translation is not authoritative in the sense that the Arabic original is -- I'm sure there are otheras on this list who can give more certain and accurate answers, though. Philip From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Wed May 28 18:05:29 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 20:05:29 +0200 Subject: experiences with d.k.agencies (question) Message-ID: <161227030561.23782.3831056398076994224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> since i'm gonna order a few items through d.k.agencies, i'd like to know what i am in for. i'd appreciate anyone relating their experiences good or not so good with them, if any, here or in email. thanks jacob From fp7 at columbia.edu Thu May 29 03:23:05 1997 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 28 May 97 23:23:05 -0400 Subject: experiences with d.k.agencies (question) Message-ID: <161227030565.23782.4666406772439866617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have ordered Urdu and Hindi books from them often and have found their service excellent. Their catalogues are also many cuts above what most booksellers offer. I've found it well worthwhile being on their mailing list; I end up using them more than most other sources. On Wed, 28 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > since i'm gonna order a few items through d.k.agencies, > i'd like to know what i am in for. > > i'd appreciate anyone relating their experiences good > or not so good with them, if any, here or in email. > > thanks > jacob > > > > > From efb3 at columbia.edu Thu May 29 06:54:13 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 02:54:13 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030570.23782.18391971127287833063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 27 May 1997, George Thompson wrote > > If you, Howard, Edwin & Martin, want to delineate boundaries between > religion and science, be my guest [so to speak]. But I think that Greg > Downing and the rest of us should be permitted to discuss Vedic philology > without such rude, utterly unwarranted imnterruptions > Well, George, someone like the literary critic Gadamer would say that even an author has no more jurisdiction over his 'text' (read email), once it is in the public sphere, than anyone else; new meanings may be culled from it which were perhaps not anticipated by the author. Be that as it may, as far as I am aware, there is no legislation preventing a posting to this list for a specific purpose (ie Greg Downing's) being used as a spring board for starting a new topic of discussion. You and Greg and anyone else are perfectly entitled to discuss Vedic philology (as a Vedicist, positivist, Buddhist, father, American or in any other state of mind) and Howard and Gene Thursby and anyone else are simultaneously permitted to discuss the jurisdiction of metaphysics and positivism. The posting in question, then, was not "utterly unwarranted". As for the rudeness content, I think everyone bothering to follow this exchange will have their own opinion as to which of the postings were most guilty of this. In view of Beatrice's recent posting, perhaps we should recall what what you yourself said about it being "Vedic to be polite to guests". And let's move on (cordially, if possible). Regards, Edwin > > > > > > > > From efb3 at columbia.edu Thu May 29 06:55:59 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 02:55:59 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030572.23782.16011077953411556500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Louis, Well, I suppose it might be interesting to consider the religious affiliation (or non-affiliation) of those who "jumped in to defend Howard", provided this were juxtaposed with the same from those who jumped in to censure him. Perhaps some sort of psychological pattern could then be discerned which might correspond to the various outbursts on both sides. But, personally, I'm not about to start second-guessing anyone's religious beliefs or lack thereof (especially as its not clear to me why that would be any of my business). As far as I was concerned, it seemed to me that you were interpreting Howard's statement as "professing scholarly neutrality" (which it wasn't) and had then gone out of your way to suggest that he himself is not a "neutral scholar" due to his particular religious affiliations. However, I agree that the term "hopeless logical positivist" is philosophically judgmental, so since you say you were reacting to this, then fair enough. Let's move on with no hard feelings. In general, and in response to Phillip's question about revealing one's bias, I have no problem with personal religious or irreligious revelations if a person chooses to offer them. Personally, I find this useful, since I would rather read the exegesis of a critical Buddhist text from a Buddhist (especially if he/she was also schooled in the methods, conceptual structures and language of critical scholarship), than by someone who is not compelled or influenced by the logic of a Buddhist point of view. In an ideal academic world--especially a post-modern one which has little time for absolute truth claims--it would be useful if everyone revealed his/her own relative perspective (especially when embarking on an interpretative religious project) so that the reader can be aware of the formative influences permeating the author's point of view. But, in reality (and even though everyone knows that pure objectivity is a myth) when it comes to issues of religion, people can get very judgmental and touchy, as history clearly reveals, and as Phillip's anecdote underscores. Hence, it must be left up to the individual to chose to disclose his/her religious bias/orientations or not. This leads to a related issue: When does a scholar have the right to reveal someone else's religious bias or orientations? Obviously (and perhaps this will be of interest to Greg Downing, who might be wondering what happened to his innocuous question to this list, if he has not given up on us), if Max Muller states that: "this edition of mine...the Veda../will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India...it is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3000 years", then this is relevant information that the researcher might want to suggest the reader keep in mind when considering the Vedic interpretations of Max Muller. But if an author choses not to reveal his/her religious bias one enters into a much greyer area. Most scholars would probably agree that if a piece of scholarship is dripping with religious over/undertones, even if implicit, then it is fair game to attempt to contextualize the author. But, in less obvious instances, it seems to me that one must be wary of encroaching on a persons private domain, or of adopting an ad hominem level of critique. And if even implicit religious perspectives are not reasonably obvious, then a person's religious orientations are no more relevant to their scholarship than their sexual orientations might be. But now I'm stating the obvious. Regards, Edwin Bryant From jai at mantra.com Thu May 29 18:08:42 1997 From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 08:08:42 -1000 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030602.23782.5767119967828680568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members: Just a short note from the practical Jyotish perspective -- Almost always, the given birth time of a person is used only to prepare a preliminary set of charts and tables. The birth time is then rectified to arrive at a starting epoch usually not too distant from a date 273 days prior to birth for most normal births. Computational fine-tuning based on certain events that have already taken place in the native's life further approximates the moment of the descent of the eggs in the mother's Fallopian tubes. The idea is to get as close to one of the first events in a person's life -- especially those which have a correspondence with the lunar cycle. The charts are then recalculated accrding to this time and date. Jai Maharaj Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti At 6:41 p.m. BST on 5/29/97, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: >>>the length of gestation as `ten or nine months' more or less > >This was always confusing to me... particularly last year when >we had our (first) baby girl. One of the pregnancy magazines >had a highlighted box, where the length of gestation was said >to be approximately 10 lunar months or 9 calendar months (for >a total of approx 40 weeks or 280 days). >_________ > >During an upannyAsam (religious discourse) on the occasion of >VinAyaka Caturthi by the harikathA exponent Balakrishna Sastrigal, >I heard him mention that if humans are to have children, "life" >has to develop within the father for a month and next within >the mother for ~9 months and then an individual is born. He >was contrasting it against the legendary instant birth of >VinAyaka by the mere endearing look of Goddess Parvati, as >she and Lord Shiva gazed at a painting or scene or two >intertwined elephants. > >My question is - is there anything in the literatures and legends >on this bit about the "life" developing within the father for a >month ? > >I have wondered if this refers in anyway to sperm cell cytology >but a quick look at Encycl Brittanica ruled it out... EB says >that it takes 74 days for a germ cell to mature to the point >where it can fertilize an egg. > >-Srini. From thillaud at unice.fr Thu May 29 06:15:32 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 08:15:32 +0200 Subject: On some recent discussions Message-ID: <161227030567.23782.269333187128901013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:51 +0200 28/05/97, Beatrice Reusch wrote: >The only thing that remains an unanswered question in my mind >is the *need* to jump into the Agni discussion with a quote from Garzilli's >preface. Yet I have put that to rest. It's not that I have to have all >answers in this world. You're right. I don't remember the exact terms of the question (ontological nature of Agni ?) but my own reflexions are perhaps linked to. In MBh Agni is in DhRSTa-dyumna, the leader of the army. dhRS- is 'to dare' but Vedic dhRSTi- is fire tongue. In dyumna, the dyu- is precised (I, 57, 91) by agnisamadyuti. So, for this heroe, dyu- is a fire-like light and dhRSTadyu- an enforcement: dhRSTadyu-mna is probably to understand 'staying in fire'. From an other side the Greek Aga-memnon is too the leader of the army and both Greek and Indian generals are not directly at the cause of the war. If Aga-memnon has the same meaning (with reduplicated form of the root men-), that suppose *agn- for the old name of the fire. Then, an other name of Agni, Agnideva, would be to understand as a locative compound: 'the Celestial *in* the fire'. From here perhaps Agni as a God's name and agni as the new fire's name. So, if I'm right, Agnideva is not a God but the name of the Celestial *when* in the fire (sun, lightning or sacrificial fire). This can explain why Agni is too Soma, Apaam Napat, &c. Hoping to help, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From MytraeM at aol.com Thu May 29 12:17:33 1997 From: MytraeM at aol.com (MytraeM at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 08:17:33 -0400 Subject: New Vedantic journal--call for manuscripts Message-ID: <161227030581.23782.2959802611850837224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hari Om! I am new to this newsgroup and hope that a call for manuscripts for a new Vedantic journal is appropriate. I am posting this on behalf of the Chinmaya Institute of Higher Learning, a non-profit educational institute located in Bangalore, India. The goal of our Institute is to incorporate Vedanta, values and ethics into professional and personal lives--i.e., the practical application of Vedanta. This institute is a project being undertaken by Chinmaya Mission, a worldwide Vedantic organization, which offers education on Vedanta. Organizational structure: Chinmaya Mission The Chinmaya Institute of Higher Learning (a project undertaken by Chinmaya Mission) The Chinmaya Institute of Management (a division of The Chinmaya Institute of Higher Learning) We are going to be starting a new Journal--the title is still under discussion. Inspired by the universal tenets of Vedanta, the Journal: - explores the relationship between Vedanta, values and management. - researches management theories and the practical application of values, ethics and Vedantic concepts in management. - investigates the domain of management as a macrocosmic extension of an individual's complete personality. - examines management in the context of the Indian ethos. The commemorative issue deals with 'Ethics in Business', which explores the ethical dimension of an organisation. Among other areas, it examines: -- ethics and integrity in human behaviour. -- the need and relevance of ethics in business. -- defining and implementing an ethical organisation. -- problems and solutions to ethical issues in specific areas of management. -- ethical decision making We are hoping to receive all articles/papers by July 31, 1997. Papers relating management concepts to Vedantic ones, whether in the Upanishads, Gita, epics of Ramayana and Mahabharata, Arthasastra and Dharmasastra and any other Indian treatises would be very appropriate. The target audience consists of academicians, business leaders and philosophers. The journal is semi-annual and thematic. It has an international editorial board and will be an international distribution. If there is any interest in participating in this area, please let me know. For more information about the Chinmaya Institute of Higher Learning and the Journal, please visit our web page: http:/www.chinmaya.org/centers/india/CIHL.html Namaste. Mytrae Maganti P.O. Box 17401 Arlington, VA 22201 U.S.A. From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca Thu May 29 15:46:47 1997 From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 08:46:47 -0700 Subject: experiences with d.k.agencies (question) Message-ID: <161227030587.23782.12066110677311794068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My experience with D.K. Agencies is excellent. I have been using them for the past nine years and I have recommended them to many friends in Europe and North America. Mandakranta Bose Department of Religious Studies University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. mbose at unixg.ubc.ca On Wed, 28 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > since i'm gonna order a few items through d.k.agencies, > i'd like to know what i am in for. > > i'd appreciate anyone relating their experiences good > or not so good with them, if any, here or in email. > > thanks > jacob > > > > From jai at mantra.com Thu May 29 19:11:07 1997 From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 09:11:07 -1000 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030608.23782.5193492669259391248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members: At 7:44 p.m. on 5/29/97 BST, silk at wmich.edu (jonathan silk) wrote: > I cannot answer Srini's good question about pre-conception > development in the father, but let me nip just one little > thing in the bud right now. The is ABSOLUTELY NO connection > between ancient "scientific" ideas, Indian or > otherwise, in this regard, and facts discovered microbiologically > by modern science. . . . Which facts discovered microbiologically by modern science have been compared with corresponding ancient ideas to conclude that there is no conenction between them? Dhanyavaad in advance. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Thu May 29 17:16:48 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 09:16:48 -0800 Subject: agni & dhRSTi- in the Veda Message-ID: <161227030595.23782.1181125481236616014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 7:23 +0100 5/29/97, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > > dhRS- is 'to dare' but Vedic dhRSTi- is fire tongue. Sorry I can't follow you here. On dhRSTi- Mayrhofer says "nicht klar" and Grassmann seems to give no citation. Perhaps some of the Vedic scholars on the list may help. Best, Beatrice From kichenas at math.umn.edu Thu May 29 15:30:11 1997 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030585.23782.10022610855745181774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With reference to Jonathan Silk's interesting reference, one may add that ChAndOgya V.9.1 gives the length of gestation as `ten or nine months' more or less (das'a vA nava mAsAn antaH s'ayitvA yAvad vA 'tha jAyatE...). In this particular case, the duration is therefore given in terms of months rather than weeks. By the way, the initial issue on arithmetic modulo nine and `casting out nines' has been addressed by many people already. It may be interesting to note that its use in checking operations is found in India (apparently before it is found anywhere else). The use of bases other than nine in this connection has, if memory serves, been noted by NArAyaNa. (I'll be happy to look up the actual reference if anyone is interested). Satyanad Kichenassamy kichenas at math.umn.edu From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu May 29 09:03:45 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 11:03:45 +0200 Subject: experiences with d.k.agencies (question) Message-ID: <161227030574.23782.2336681744062361484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:28 29.05.97 BST, you wrote: > >I have ordered Urdu and Hindi books from them often and have found their >service excellent. Their catalogues are also many cuts above what most >booksellers offer. I've found it well worthwhile being on their mailing >list; I end up using them more than most other sources. > > > >On Wed, 28 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >> since i'm gonna order a few items through d.k.agencies, >> i'd like to know what i am in for. Given the brilliant testimonial above, would it be possible to have the address of d.k. agencies? Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk Thu May 29 10:21:29 1997 From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (pgm) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 11:21:29 +0100 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030576.23782.9719780090436527810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First: science is not value-neutral, but constitutes itself a value-system and a world-view operating under a set of premises that are agreed-upon rather than 'given', that may or may not be in conflict with other systems of world-explanation. I am afraid there is a confusion here. Some scientists may *think* that science involves or can deliver a world-view, but in fact this is incompatible with the nature of science, which is an endlessly corrigible process of questioning and enquiry, whose progress in the accumulation of knowledge and framing of new hypotheses is bought at the cost of never getting stuck within a particular view of things. That said, it is of course reasonable to say that some world-views may be more hospitable to science than others, and even that some scientific discoveries (or methods) may seem more compatible with some world- views than others. Peter Moore From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk Thu May 29 10:32:10 1997 From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (pgm) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 11:32:10 +0100 Subject: Internet access to the British Library Catalogue Message-ID: <161227030578.23782.17007085940307172252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try leaving the last backslash off the URL, which worked for me. peter moore From jehms at globalxs.nl Thu May 29 10:48:59 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 11:48:59 +0100 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030591.23782.1924918279846266794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 28-mei-97 schreef Vidyasankar Sundaresan: ... >It would be nice if the word 'scientific' could be replaced by 'logical' >or 'rational' in the above. For an entity as elusive as god(s), science >can contribute almost nothing to a discussion on *what* a god is, let >alone prove or disprove *that* a god is. In a discussion of agni and >dIrghatamas, contemporary science just has to keep silent. i don't agree. science deals with facts. a fact is acknowleged public information although within certain limits: no fact is without context. the qualities of a god are facts, they have been revealed in public texts to believers as well as to unbelievers. but even if a god is only known to a limited group of believers and the believers are reluctant to talk about it, there is no reason why this god couldn't be the object of scientific research. of course we find the qualities of a god not by practising mysticism, as the young Frits Staal once thought, but by reading texts. >Although most science adheres to a philosophy of logical positivism, >theories like quantum mechanics make scientists worry about what is meant >by 'existence.' But that is besides the point here. i've seen little evidence of ontological worries in texts about quantumphysics, but perhaps you can enlighten me? >And, although a scientist myself, I see no need to invest the word >'scientific' with the exalted status that it seems to enjoy among >non-scientists nowadays. Somehow, being scientific is equated with being >certain. Even scientists would disagree with that perception. this is not what i meant. science is an activity, it's work. it consists of creating, collecting, ordering and evualating information according to the rules made up by the paradigm. even before post-modern times it's been established that scientific conclusions are not certain at all (cf the work of Popper, Kuhn, Feyerabend, Latour etc.). scientists can be very impressed by their own work or that of dear collegues, and say that they're quite certain, but this generally doesn't last very long. science is sort of haunted by a Rortyan irony these days. i've heard even of ironic theologians who have lost all concern about the existence of god. erik hoogcarspel From downingg at is2.nyu.edu Thu May 29 16:08:28 1997 From: downingg at is2.nyu.edu (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 12:08:28 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030589.23782.13095047010278490025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >...Greg Downing, who might be >wondering what happened to his innocuous question to this list, if he has >not given up on us... > >Edwin Bryant > Not at all, brave vedicists and indeologicians (that last word's a joke...). I wanted to reply to people and/or post again *after* getting a chance to read and digest the several articles etc. (all highly helpful) that were recommended by various of you in the middle of the past week. I've now obtained and read them. And I was also trying to finish M"uller's _Science of Thought_ (700 pages, arrgh -- I must have read 3000 pages by MM at this point, a certain amount of it repetitive of course). And meanwhile a phrase somewhere in my last post to the list somehow occasioned a discussion of whether god(s) exist or not, something about which I was not stating or implying any personal opinion, and about which I am quite openminded (and not at all in some covertly hostile way). I never intended to cause a problem. But obviously this is an issue some of you wanted to discuss!!! And so it goes.... In the meantime, thanks again for all the help to date. I'll post and/or answer private emails by this weekend. Any upcoming post to this list by me will of course be even more heavily vetted than before, in order to eradicate any wording that could foment polemics! Also, since I'm here, a colleague who is teaching an ancient cultures course in the fall and wanted to expand her range to early India as well as Greece and China etc., asked me if I knew someone who could recommend possible texts for an undergraduate class that would be inexpensively accessible for students in paperback, and which also "read well." I suggested things such as the Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita, that extract from the Vedas published I think by Penguin, etc. I know there are various versions of each: for the Bhag-G for example, there are translations by Mascaro and Edgerton and Zaehner etc. Are there texts people would either recommend, or steer others away from? Again, this is for students who have no prior exposure to early Indian culture (I hope that isn't too silly a question to ask this highly learned list). Thanks again for all your help to date.... I sent this earlier this morning but it apparently did not get through to the list (on this list, I always get an echo of the posting back).... I hope this is not in fact a duplicate posting (if so, sorry). Gregory {Greg} Downing greg.downing at nyu.edu or downingg at is2.nyu.edu From srini at engin.umich.edu Thu May 29 16:36:47 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 12:36:47 -0400 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030598.23782.6411704865371140543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>the length of gestation as `ten or nine months' more or less This was always confusing to me... particularly last year when we had our (first) baby girl. One of the pregnancy magazines had a highlighted box, where the length of gestation was said to be approximately 10 lunar months or 9 calendar months (for a total of approx 40 weeks or 280 days). _________ During an upannyAsam (religious discourse) on the occasion of VinAyaka Caturthi by the harikathA exponent Balakrishna Sastrigal, I heard him mention that if humans are to have children, "life" has to develop within the father for a month and next within the mother for ~9 months and then an individual is born. He was contrasting it against the legendary instant birth of VinAyaka by the mere endearing look of Goddess Parvati, as she and Lord Shiva gazed at a painting or scene or two intertwined elephants. My question is - is there anything in the literatures and legends on this bit about the "life" developing within the father for a month ? I have wondered if this refers in anyway to sperm cell cytology but a quick look at Encycl Brittanica ruled it out... EB says that it takes 74 days for a germ cell to mature to the point where it can fertilize an egg. -Srini. From thompson at jlc.net Thu May 29 17:39:00 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 13:39:00 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030600.23782.4686834755661843206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to this: >As for the rudeness content, I think everyone bothering to follow this >exchange will have their own opinion as to which of the postings were most >guilty of this. In view of Beatrice's recent posting, perhaps we should >recall what what you yourself said about it being "Vedic to be polite to >guests". And let's move on (cordially, if possible). Regards, Edwin >> I'm prepared to be cordial. But let's be honest also. This is not about science and religion. It's about Howard's religion, and he doesn't want me to talk about it. Fine. I won't talk about Howard's religion. I'll talk about Vedic, exclusively. kRNo'mi satya'm Uta'ye... George From silk at wmich.edu Thu May 29 18:42:32 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 14:42:32 -0400 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030604.23782.9034711988228380448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I cannot answer Srini's good question about pre-conception development in the father, but let me nip just one little thing in the bud right now. The is ABSOLUTELY NO connection between ancient "scientific" ideas, Indian or otherwise, in this regard, and facts discovered microbiologically by modern science. If there are similarities they are entirely adventious. In other words, even if it were the fact that sperm cells require 1 month to mature, this would be nothing more than an interesting coincidence, and irrelevant from a scientific point of view. By the way, one expert on embryology in ancient India is R. P. Das; I do not know if he uses email. Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From thillaud at unice.fr Thu May 29 12:44:05 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 14:44:05 +0200 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030583.23782.7778000255761745079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:41 +0200 29/05/97, Peter Moore wrote: >I am afraid there is a confusion here. Some scientists may *think* >that science involves or can deliver a world-view, but in fact this >is incompatible with the nature of science, which is an endlessly >corrigible process of questioning and enquiry, whose progress in >the accumulation of knowledge and framing of new hypotheses is bought >at the cost of never getting stuck within a particular view of >things. confusion ? I don't believe. I'm afraid you develop here an 'integrist' epistemological vision of the science where the science is out of mankind and had a 'nature' (?). Science, as languages, is an human, sociological and ideological product. Without 'nature' but with 'functions'. One of them is to give us a structured and pragmatic world-view. And the 'endlessly ...' is effective only on the long duration. Science don't change continuously and not faster than languages or religions. But many scientist who extract power and notoriety from science like to persuade you they are uninteressed and ideological-free. Sorry, but that's not true. Regards, Dominique P.S.: And don't forget an other function: to give war-power (military and economical). Recall Archimedes and Sicilia, Galileus and Venice, Einstein and USA. Ask you: 'who pays ?' and 'why ?'. Even the development of medicine is linked to war: chirurgy and asepsy were first for wounded soldiers. If you wont Tamil to be teached in USA, propose a plan to invade Tamil Nadu with GIs or pop-corn. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From efb3 at columbia.edu Thu May 29 19:02:34 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 15:02:34 -0400 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030606.23782.721943341019324363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 May 1997, jonathan silk wrote: > I cannot answer Srini's good question about pre-conception development in > the father, but let me nip just one little thing in the bud right now. The > is ABSOLUTELY NO connection between ancient "scientific" ideas, Indian or > otherwise, in this regard, and facts discovered microbiologically by modern > science. If there are similarities they are entirely adventious. In other > words, even if it were the fact that sperm cells require 1 month to mature, > this would be nothing more than an interesting coincidence, and irrelevant > from a scientific point of view. > > By the way, one expert on embryology in ancient India is R. P. Das; I do > not know if he uses email. > He does. His address is kfozh at mlucom2.urz.uni-halle.de Regards, Edwin> > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at wmich.edu > > > > > From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu May 29 22:36:51 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 15:36:51 -0700 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030610.23782.13106753830281648289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 May 1997, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > science deals with facts. a fact is acknowleged public > information although within certain limits: no fact is without context. the > qualities of a god are facts, they have been revealed in public texts to > believers as well as to unbelievers. but even if a god is only known to a > limited group of believers and the believers are reluctant to talk about it, > there is no reason why this god couldn't be the object of scientific research. > of course we find the qualities of a god not by practising mysticism, as the > young Frits Staal once thought, but by reading texts. > I don't want to digress into a full-fledged philosophy of science on this forum, but let me say just this much. Ever since Hume, science has adhered to measurables/observables. Entities that are not directly measurable come from theories that seek to explain or predict measurables. Things like velocity, position and reaction rates are measurable. The total energy content of a body is not measurable, but energy differences in some process can be measured/calculated. If the energy released/absorbed cannot be measured in some form, scientists would not see much point in affirming a quantity called energy. Given this attitude towards any entity, science cannot investigate gods and their properties, and still be science. The nAsatyas, agni and vAyu (as gods) are as much out of the scope of scientific inquiry as Allah, Jehovah or Christ. Neither practising mysticism nor reading religious texts is the task of the scientist. Of course, individual scientists may do either or both, in addition to their scientific research, but that is because scientists are also human beings, and they are not one-dimensional. In one sense, science is treading on areas traditionally considered the domain of religion. This is because science is also starting to pose the ultimate questions. The great number of books drawing parallels between quantum physics and "Oriental mysticism" (whatever that means) are a testimony to that. And in almost a century of quantum mechanics, no serious physicist yet claims to know all the answers. Still, to say that because of its own world-view, science does/should have a view about every aspect of every known religion is overstating the issue. Hindus will continue to get married and name their children in front of the fire, Christians will continue to go to church for these activities, and so on, at least in the foreseeable future. The concept of holiness/godliness associated with agni or Christ is not within the scope of science, as it exists today. > >Although most science adheres to a philosophy of logical positivism, > >theories like quantum mechanics make scientists worry about what is meant > >by 'existence.' But that is besides the point here. > > i've seen little evidence of ontological worries in texts about > quantumphysics, but perhaps you can enlighten me? That could probably be because physicists and educators deliberately decide not to worry about philosophical implications of quantum mechanics, or else one could never get any quantum physics done. But if you look at the history of quantum mechanics, famous problems and paradoxes in the theory were seen as things worthy of investigation, precisely because scientists like Bohr, Heisenberg and Einstein had their own *philosophical* attitudes about the implications of quamtum physics. Haven't you heard of Einstein's quip, "God does not play dice" and the retort, "Don't tell God what to do"? Things like determinism, causality, free will and choice played a huge role in the early controversy between Einstein and the others. > > >And, although a scientist myself, I see no need to invest the word > >'scientific' with the exalted status that it seems to enjoy among > >non-scientists nowadays. Somehow, being scientific is equated with being > >certain. Even scientists would disagree with that perception. > > this is not what i meant. science is an activity, it's work. it consists of > creating, collecting, ordering and evualating information according to the This view of science does not explain how science becomes knowledge. Good science is more knowledge than activity. Activity is used to help understand the subject of one's interests better, that is all. (I am influenced, to a certain extent, by the advaita vedAnta view of work and knowledge, but I consider it justified in this case.) As for the certainty associated with science, I was referring to the popular view, probably more prevalent among the average man-in-the-street, than among scientists and philosophers. > rules made up by the paradigm. even before post-modern times it's been > established that scientific conclusions are not certain at all (cf the work of > Popper, Kuhn, Feyerabend, Latour etc.). scientists can be very impressed by > their own work or that of dear collegues, and say that they're quite certain, > but this generally doesn't last very long. science is sort of haunted by a > Rortyan irony these days. Is this view prompted by a reductionist viewpoint by which all science is supposed to rest on the foundations of quantum physics and/or relativity? Certainly, most philosophers of science thought (and continue to think) that all science had been reduced to physics, and paid little attention to chemistry, biology and other fields. It seems to me that in any field, being impressed by an exceptional piece of work or publication accounts for a lot of the certainty which people associate with their views. But then, I don't want to get into a debate here on whether there is such a thing as pure objectivity or not! > i've heard even of ironic theologians who have lost > all concern about the existence of god. They are in the good company of the Indian pUrva mImA.msakas! Vidyasankar From jehms at globalxs.nl Thu May 29 16:34:39 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 17:34:39 +0100 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030593.23782.4763050129512657306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 28-mei-97 schreef Dominique.Thillaud: >At 11:41 +0200 27/05/97, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: >> >>First: science is not value-neutral, but constitutes itself a value-system >>and a world-view operating under a set of premises that are agreed-upon >>rather than 'given', that may or may not be in conflict with other systems >>of world-explanation. but which is valid only within the scientific paradigm and not apart from scientific research. the laws of quantummechanics don't hold in a soccergame. may i remind you that we live in a world with many conflicting value-systems. this started long time ago with the acceptence of the duplex ordo and had become very prominent during the arisal of postmodernism >I agree completely. Using Eliade's definition of a religion as >'founding the reality' it's clear the science is today a new sort of living >religion, with cosmogony, origin of life, of mankind, gods (Energy, >Entropy, &c.), sacred and hermetic language (mathematics), well-developped >magic (technology, flying, far-talking, fireballs, &c.), necromancy (old >movies, archeology), clerics (I'm one) with studies, initiation, hierarchy >and heretics (I'm one too) and underlying philosophy (the concept of the >world's modelisation by scientific theories is platonician). The science is >apostolic (a subtle form of neo-coloialism) but, perhaps, the main today's >problems come from his lack of an eschatology! this is called scientism. Husserl and Heidegger have proved it wrong. it's an opinion i would expect to hear on the street, not in an intellectual discussion btw Eliade was also wrong in this case, reality doesn't have to be founded, it's just there, just, no more no less. >I don't agree fully: translating a text is not just translating >words, syntax and semantic but translating too the *pragmatic*. A law-text >must be translated by a law-man. A religious text is not like a novel, it >vehicles strong religious intentions and I prefer the translator of a >buddhist text to be a buddhist. The exceptions are dead religions (as >egyptian one) and too much evolued religions: are bad translated Bible by a >protestant or Veda by an hinduist! (warning: I'm saying they are bad >translated from philological point of view, not from translator's religious >one). And if I recall right, muslim law prohibes the translation of Coran. you seem to think that the pragmatics are only revealed by experience and not by study and relection. my wife just finished a research on the meaning of death i'm glad she didn't have to experience death in order to complete her research and if her work is translated i hope the translators will live long and healthy lives! there more to it: do you have to be a dog in order to know what it's like to be a dog? do you need to be a god in order to know what it is to be a god? are you the hero of your own biography? IOW do i know what it is to be me because i am myself? what is this 'knowing what it is to be like'? knowlegde is being able to give a coherent meaningfull account of what you know, according to the pragmatics of science and education anyway. am i able to give a coherent account about what it is to be me, because i am myself? NO, the truth is that i cannot explain what it is to be me, i cannot explain what is is to be human. you cannot explain what you are. knowledge demands this ontological split, this distance. so a law-man is not a good translator of law-texts unless s/he is more than a law(wo)man, so that s/he can develop this distance along with his/her expert knowledge. erik hoogcarspel From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri May 30 00:44:18 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 17:44:18 -0700 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030622.23782.6393164613208216036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 May 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: [..] > Science, as languages, is an human, sociological and ideological > product. Without 'nature' but with 'functions'. I'll leave the question of 'nature' aside, for the moment. > One of them is to give us a structured and pragmatic world-view. Pragmatic, yes. Structured? That is open to question. There is as yet no scientific theory of everything, to give a structured world-view. > And the 'endlessly ...' is effective only on the long duration. > Science don't change continuously and not faster than languages or > religions. If you believe Thomas Kuhn, it changes rather suddenly, with gestalt-shifts occuring unpredictably. This might happen tomorrow, or nothing might change for a century. Surely, languages and religion are very different in such respects? But then, forget the well-known philosophers of science. If, in your view, science does not have 'nature' what prevents it from changing whenever it is considered expedient to do so? Rather, the historical record indicates that it is in the 'nature' of science to resist change unless observed data warrant one. However, this resistance does not scare scientists into halting their data-collecting activity. They go on collecting their data, and when the situation demands, by and large, they are not afraid to question their earlier premises. > But many scientist who extract power and notoriety from science > like to persuade you they are uninteressed and ideological-free. Sorry, but > that's not true. Let us not throw out the baby with the bath-water. Although science is not a monolithic entity, it is more than a sociological construct. What many scientists say or do affects the larger picture of science only marginally. There is a large number of scientists of moderate ability, and a small number of real geniuses. And despite ideological partiality, some scientists have contributed a mighty lot to the scientific understanding of physical reality. And although scientists and philosophers have not articulated this as such in the west, to me, the real complaint against science seems to be an underlying suspicion that it lays claim to some sort of 'apaurusheyatvam' and hence, universality. Is that so? > Regards, > Dominique > > P.S.: And don't forget an other function: to give war-power > (military and economical). Recall Archimedes and Sicilia, Galileus and > Venice, Einstein and USA. Ask you: 'who pays ?' and 'why ?'. Even the > development of medicine is linked to war: chirurgy and asepsy were first > for wounded soldiers. If you wont Tamil to be teached in USA, propose a > plan to invade Tamil Nadu with GIs or pop-corn. Let us see. A thousand years or more ago, chariots drawn on wheels were widely used in warfare. Does that mean that the invention of the wheel was a bad thing? More often than not, military benefits are a side product of a scientist's work. Let us take medicine. What motivated somebody to keep researching fungi that fought bacterial infection, resulting in the discovery of penicillin and other antibiotics? What motivated another man to observe cowpox and smallpox patients and come up with the idea of vaccination? If these are not indications of the overflowing milk of human kindness, what is? If men fight and kill, blame politics and human nature, not science. And if the only important questions are who pays and why, then rest assured, fundamental science is on its way out, and is not a threat to other world-views any more. The super-collider is not going to be built, because the politicians see no tangible military benefits from it. Meanwhile, scientists want the project to go on, not for its military benefit, but because they think they can learn fundamental truths about particle physics from the experiments. Vidyasankar From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri May 30 00:49:46 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 17:49:46 -0700 Subject: The lunar month and gestation Message-ID: <161227030624.23782.689778915062170540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:51 PM 5/27/97 BST, Jonathan Silk wrote: >>Dominique wrote: >> >> P.S. 1: I don't believe human gestation has anything to do with 9: >>273 (statistical duration) : 29.5 (lunar month) = 9.25 and this 0.25 is too >>great (birth's moon and conception's mood are not the same!). More: I don't >>know how Indians counted the durations before Indian mathematicians, but in >>ancient Greece where the Olympic Games were 'pentaeterikoi' (each 'five' >>years), human gestation was 10 months. > > >I confess that I am entirely ignorant of mathematics, and I don't >understand the first half of this paragraph, but: there is considerable >information available about old Indian ideas of embryology and gestation. >One interesting fact -- I think it is a fact, and I plan to write about it >in the context of a study of the Buddhist text Garbaavakraanti-suutra -- is >that discussion of gestation in terms of *weeks* in this text, which almost >certainly comes from the Northwest, and probably belongs to the >Muulasarvaastivaadins, appears to show Greek influence. Unfortunately this >text is not extant in Skt, only Chinese and Tibetan, but probably the word >for week is saptaka. The progress through the various embryonic stages is >denoted by weeks, and the total gestational period is, if memory serves (I >don't have the text at hand) 38 weeks. The average duration of pregnancy is about 280 days, or 40 weeks of 7 days. The sidereal lunar month currently lasts 27 days 17 hrs. 43 min. Ten of these months equal about 280 days. So when old texts talk of a gestation period of 10 months they are, most likely, referring to these 10 sidereal lunar months. The sidereal lunar month is the time it takes the Moon to go once around the Zodiac and return to the same place with respect to the stars. In other words, the time elapsed since the Moon is in conjunction with a certain star until it reaches the same star again. The synodic lunar month, on the other hand, is the time elapsed from new Moon to new Moon, or from full Moon to full Moon. Put differently, it is the time between two consecutive conjunctions of the Sun and the Moon (in the case of the new Moon to new Moon scenario). It is longer than the sidereal month because by the time Moon goes around the Zodiac, the Sun has also advanced slightly, and the Moon must catch up. The current duration of the synodic lunar month is 29 days 12 hrs. 44 min. I remember having read about a ten month gestation period in the KathAsaritsAgara, but I don't have access to the reference at the moment. I'm sure there are many more, probably in Buddhist texts. Both lunar months were used in ancient India. The synodic lunar month was divided into 30 so-called lunar days, the tithis. And the sidereal month is the one that defines the nakSatras, the lunar constellations of the Zodiac (as opposed to the solar constellations, the rA'sis). Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Fri May 30 00:10:43 1997 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 19:10:43 -0500 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030617.23782.14874262500238847520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 May 1997, George Thompson wrote: > > I'm prepared to be cordial. But let's be honest also. This is not about > science and religion. It's about Howard's religion, and he doesn't want me > to talk about it. > > Fine. I won't talk about Howard's religion. I'll talk about Vedic, exclusively. > > kRNo'mi satya'm Uta'ye... > > George > This anecdote is not entirely relevant, but it does touch on some of the matters discussed in the current thread. When I was an undergraduate, a Sanskrit professor of mine said to me: "Well, Max Mueller's theory of Rig Vedic religion being originally a cult of the sun makes complete sense if you realize that he got up every morning at the crack of dawn. He was one of those people who would today call people up on the phone at 7 in the morning!" On another occasion, he told me that Frits Staal's ideas about the meaninglessness of ritual stem from his strict Calvinist upbringing. Now these reported facts may or may not be true (although the do make some amount of sense), but they do raise the question (pertinent to the matter at hand) of the role of a scholar's personal biography in the work that they do. Adi Hastings From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Fri May 30 03:27:01 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 20:27:01 -0700 Subject: the Gods Message-ID: <161227030626.23782.11620269153429795753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Thu May 29 17:20:23 1997 >Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by mail.liv.ac.uk > with Local-SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 May 1997 01:19:27 +0100 >Message-Id: From: Adi Hastings > >This anecdote is not entirely relevant, but it does touch on some of >the matters discussed in the current thread. > When I was an undergraduate, a Sanskrit professor of mine said to me: >"Well, Max Mueller's theory of Rig Vedic religion being originally a cult >of the sun makes complete sense if you realize that he got up every >morning at the crack of dawn. He was one of those people who would today >call people up on the phone at 7 in the morning!" On another occasion, he >told me that Frits Staal's ideas about the meaninglessness of ritual stem >from his strict Calvinist upbringing. > >Now these reported facts may or may not be true (although the do make some >amount of sense), but they do raise the question (pertinent to the matter >at hand) of the role of a scholar's personal biography in the work that ------------------------------- >they do. > -------- >Adi Hastings Yes, how very true. It would make logical sense for people reviewing a paper/book etc to be influenced by their own background, perception , pre-existing biases etc. This unfortunately extends all the way into the highest realms of academia. As an example, you have the German physicists Johannes Stark and P.B(?)Lenard who started the concept of German science in the 30s. They apparently came from areas where anti-semitism was widely prevalent. So, they would examine any piece of research, any paper/tract by a Jewish author with the pre-concieved idea that he was wrong. In order to prove them wrong on a consistent basis, they came up with theories which were not based on any hypothesis, but simply opposed the viewpoint of a given Jewish scientist with whom they did not see eye to eye in their personal life. This idea is very humorously brought out in R.K.Narayans classic "Swami and Friends" where Ebenezar, Swamis scripture teacher condemns Hinduism on the basis that Krishna was a vagabond who did nothing better to do then to dance and make merry...."Where was he" Ebenezar thunders "when Mahmud of Ghazni looted the temple in Somnathpur and carried the icons to Ghazni and used them as steps for his lavatory?" Swami( the quintessential Brahminical lad) jumps up and asks him "If your Jesus Christ is as great as you say he was, then why is it that he was crucified like a common criminal?" Ebenezar bites his moustache and asks Swami to sit down. This only makes Swamis blood boil and he asks his next question "If Jesus was the son of God, then why did he eat meat and fish and drink wine?"(As RKN himself remarks, as a Brahmin boy, it was inconcievable to Swami that God could be anything but a vegeterian:-)). Humor apart, the reactions of the two characters about each others religions illustrate how their pre-concieved notion of what is expected of a God affects their judgement of another religious character/leader. I would like to end my comments with a personal anecdote. When in high school, I had friends who were brought up to think that only Indians could write good books while the rest of the world could only emulate/copy/steal from the Indians. They happened to discover the well known text book on high school algebra by S.L Loney( Samuel L. Loney) of the Trinity College which they found to be extremely useful. Since they were convinced that only Indians could write good books , they decided that the S and L in S.L.Loney stood for Shankar Lal i.e. "Shankar Lal Loney was a great professor" Using the same kind of logic, they concluded that Jane "Iyer" was an autobiographical novel of the first Tamil speaking girl to go to England as a grad student and "Oak Ridge" was named after P.N.Oak , the Hindutva theoritician:-). Krishna --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From Hrid at aol.com Fri May 30 00:33:36 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 97 20:33:36 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030619.23782.15877560300668957010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/29/97 5:00:46 PM, you wrote: >This is not about >science and religion. It's about Howard's religion, and he doesn't want me >to talk about it. To the contrary George, I would be happy to talk with you about my religion, but that was not the focus of my argument, nor is it the purpose of this conference. I am concerned with establishing reasonable boundaries that distinguish, as far as possible, academic and religious speech. The point of my "algebra analogy", was simply this: let us say that an algebra teacher gives her students a test and then proceeds to evaluate the students' answers, marking them right and wrong. The teacher needs the same knowledge of algebra to recognize a wrong answer as she does to recognize a right answer. Similarly, affirming or denying a religious claim equally entail a claim, on the part of the speaker, to religious knowledge. So if it is not "academic" to affirm religious truths, it is not "academic" to deny them. Right or wrong, I think the above is a philosophical argument. With best wishes, Howard Resnick From thompson at jlc.net Fri May 30 04:09:19 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 00:09:19 -0400 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030628.23782.7735257281326722196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adi Hastings observes: > >This anecdote is not entirely relevant, but it does touch on some of >the matters discussed in the current thread. > When I was an undergraduate, a Sanskrit professor of mine said to me: >"Well, Max Mueller's theory of Rig Vedic religion being originally a cult >of the sun makes complete sense if you realize that he got up every >morning at the crack of dawn. He was one of those people who would today >call people up on the phone at 7 in the morning!" On another occasion, he >told me that Frits Staal's ideas about the meaninglessness of ritual stem >from his strict Calvinist upbringing. > >Now these reported facts may or may not be true (although the do make some >amount of sense), but they do raise the question (pertinent to the matter >at hand) of the role of a scholar's personal biography in the work that >they do. > Well, I never had the good fortune of meeting Max Mueller [7:00 AM is a little before my time], so I cannot confirm these reports abt his early morning habits. I did, however, have the opportunity to disagree with Frits Staal rather frequently. I can report that Frits did a very good job of concealing his Calvinist upbringing, and making it appear that his views were based on, of all things, logic, and even pleasure. So there must be other factors involved besides one's upbringing. One thing that Frits has always displayed is a willingness to take risks. I have never disagreed with this methodological principle. As for Adi Hasting's main point [also S. Krshna's], in general I agree: who you are will be a factor in what you say, how you think, what your biases are. But with regard to the Vedas, there is the additional fact that you have to work *very* hard to make any sense of them. Frits simply realised that if you had to work *too* hard, maybe the meaning was not so much in the Vedas as in you. Best wishes, George From thillaud at unice.fr Thu May 29 22:47:47 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 00:47:47 +0200 Subject: agni & dhRSTi- in the Veda Message-ID: <161227030613.23782.6783534343539049933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:36 +0200 29/05/97, B. Reusch wrote: >At 7:23 +0100 5/29/97, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: >> >> dhRS- is 'to dare' but Vedic dhRSTi- is fire tongue. > >Sorry I can't follow you here. On dhRSTi- Mayrhofer says "nicht klar" and >Grassmann seems to give no citation. >Perhaps some of the Vedic scholars on the list may help. I hope, but: 1) I read in Mayrhofer's KEWA, s.v. dhRSTiH m. Feuerzange / fire-tongs. 2) That's not very important because agnisamadyuti exists in MBh about DhRSTadyumna. If you prefer 'staying in fire-light with boldness', I can agree. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thillaud at unice.fr Thu May 29 23:11:26 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 01:11:26 +0200 Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods) Message-ID: <161227030615.23782.18002508752549368333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:16 +0200 29/05/97, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: >this is called scientism. Husserl and Heidegger have proved it wrong. it's an >opinion i would expect to hear on the street, not in an intellectual >discussion My use of English is very bad, but if you think me as an adept of scientism, you're wrong: I was saying the science is like a religion, I pay food, home and others by teaching science, but I don't like it and I'm not an adept, or perhaps have you just the intention to insult me. >do you have to be a dog in order to know what it's like to >be a dog? do you need to be a god in order to know what it is to be a god? are >you the hero of your own biography? Sure I do! Don't try to ridicule a mirror. I hope that's a misunderstanding, but if not, that's without any importance. Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From mgansten at sbbs.se Fri May 30 06:26:59 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 08:26:59 +0200 Subject: The lunar month and gestation Message-ID: <161227030630.23782.10317325481502876909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann writes: >>The progress through the various embryonic stages is >>denoted by weeks, and the total gestational period is, if memory serves (I >>don't have the text at hand) 38 weeks. > >The average duration of pregnancy is about 280 days, or 40 weeks of 7 days. Well, no, not if you mean the actual period of gestation; the average would actually be about 38 weeks, as reckoned from the time of conception (though there is plenty of scope for individual variation). The 40 week average refers to the time of pregnancy as reckoned from the first day of the mother's last period, which is more easily discernible; conception is supposed to take place two weeks thereafter. Martin Gansten From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Fri May 30 15:51:02 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 08:51:02 -0700 Subject: The lunar month and gestation Message-ID: <161227030640.23782.13607814245247082515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members, There are differences in populations with regard to such variables as birth size and weight as well as gestation period. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the gestation period of a certain population in India (which, I don't remember) was rather less than the average in the West (America?). Whether this (satistical data) works it's way into folk concepts I don't know. But in Tulunad (SW coast) women reported to me that the ideal time to conceive was the first day (night, I presume) after the bath following menstruation, and THAT was best because they would produce a boy child, the day after would produce a girl, and this would alternate after that. By mid-month (menstrual) pregnancy would be difficult at best. So much for correlating statistics and folk belief! I'm not sure how closely this follows Ayur Vedic concepts, but I know that there are variations even in the region's folk belief. Medical anthropologist Mark Nichter has some papers on folk pregnancy beliefs and modern medical statistical findings from Indian populations. One source is his _Anthropology and International Health: South Asian Case Studies (1989). Peter Claus From gldnreef at primenet.com Fri May 30 16:15:52 1997 From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 09:15:52 -0700 Subject: Metric Melodies Message-ID: <161227030642.23782.9238947363587342566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ten days ago I posted a query on where I might find recordings of the melodies attached to various metres. This morning, I happened upon the title: __Vedic Recitation in Varanasi__, Wayne Howard. Motilal Banarsidass, 1986. $34.00. This volume purports to have "musical transcriptions of various recitations modes" -- whatever that means. I assume the "musical transcriptions" are in Western notation. Though this survey would only include the practice in Benares and only Vedic metres, perhaps it would be useful to other members of the list with a similar interest. A comparison of different styles of recitation over different regions and vernaculars might help address some of the questions raised in the recent dicussion over the "true" pronunciation of Sanskrit. Regards, W. Trimble From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Fri May 30 08:59:22 1997 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 10:59:22 +0200 Subject: position for a Professor (C3) Hamburg Message-ID: <161227030632.23782.15594752323864329803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Die Zeit (Stellenmarkt der Zeit, Do 12:45) ------------------ offene Stelle: Im Fachbereich Orientalistik -Institut fuer Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets- (Bewerbungs-Kennziffer: 1580/3) Universitaetsprofessur (C 3) fuer 'Sprache und Kultur des neuzeitlichen Indien' gesucht. Fachbereich: Orientalistik Position: Professur Ort: 20148 Hamburg Ansprechpartner: An den Praesidenten der Universitaet Hamburg, Verwaltung/Personalreferat 332.11./12, Moorweidenstr, 18, 20148 Hamburg From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Fri May 30 15:15:06 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 11:15:06 -0400 Subject: FYI: New Book on Tibetan Identity, Culture, Society, & Religion Message-ID: <161227030638.23782.5289466940181820427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please pass this along to those who might be interested. ======================================================================== CONSTRUCTING TIBETAN CULTURE: Contemporary Perspectives ======================================================================== Edited by Frank J. Korom ======================================================================== _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ provocatively explores the numerous way in which Tibet has been represented to the outside world in the past and present. The volume attempts to move away from earlier colonial and romantic descriptions of Tibet as either a utopian paradise or a degenerated wasteland. By interrogating such dichotomous representations generated by foreigners in both historical and modern, ethnographic contexts, the authors demonstrate that culture-building is an ongoing and dialectic process involving a number of different cultural groups, both indigenous and foreign. Through an examination of a wide variety of themes ranging from the terminology we use to describe Tibet, its people, religion, and culture to the virtual exclusion of Tibet from the literature on global diasporas, _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ attempts to relocate modern Tibetan studies squarely within the realms of anthropology and cultural studies. By addressing such theoretical problems as the foreign appropriation of Tibetan artifacts and religious practices, as well as the emergence of newly created or renegotiated expressive traditions in exile, the contributors to the volume share a common concern for moving away from essentialist understandings of Tibetan culture in favor of more critical approaches within an interdisciplinary academic context. With its extended set of case studies about Tibetan culture and worldview, _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ suggests that the concept of "authenticity" is not easily defined in the modern world, for it becomes a contested concept when it enters the world marketplace of culture. In this global arena, many communities bring their own interpretive agendas to bear on matters relating to Tibet and its people, forcing Tibetans themselves to enter into a densely layered conversation about their own identities, cultural traditions, and religions. ======================================================================== CONTENTS: Introduction Frank J. Korom PART I: IMAGINING TIBETAN CULTURE AND RELIGION 1. "Lamaism" and the Disappearance of Tibet Donald S. Lopez, Jr. 2. A Landscape for Dying: The Bardo Thodol and Western Fantasy Peter Bishop 3. Old Age Tibet in New Age America Frank J. Korom 4. Reading Negotiations in the Tibetan Diaspora Steven Venturino PART II: UNBOUND CANONS: AESTHETICS IN FLUX 5. When Tibetan Refugees Rock, Paradigms Roll: Echoes from Dharamsala's Muscial Soundscape Keila Diehl 6. Struggling with Shangri-La: A Tibetan Artist in Exile Clare Harris 7. Grids and Serpents: A Tibetan Foundation Ritual in Switzerland Mary van Dyke Index ======================================================================= SUBJECT AREAS: Anthropology / Cultural Studies / Tibetan Studies / South Asian Studies ======================================================================= ABOUT THE EDITOR AND CONTRIBUTORS: Frank J. Korom is curator of Asian and Middle Eastern Collections at the Museum of International Folk Art, New Mexico Peter Bishop is associate professor of Communications and Information Studies at the University of South Australia Keila Diehl recently completed her doctorate in Anthropology at the University of Texas, Austin Clare Harris is lecturer in the School of World Art Studies and Museology at the University of East Anglia Donald S. Lopez, Jr. is professor of Buddhist and Tibetan Studies at the University of Michigan Mary van Dyke received her doctorate in the Art History and Archaeology Department of the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London Steven Venturino is a doctoral candidate in the Department of English at Loyola University, Chicago ====================================================================== PRAISE for _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ "The first book to explore the entire range of international representations of Tibetan culture. In one brilliant sweep, the contributors examine such diverse phenomena as orientalist ideas about Shangri-La, romantic conceptions of Lamaism, the influence of the Tibetan Book of the Dead on Western literature, and the role of exile art in the contemporary development of Tibetan culture. Fascinating!" Andre Gingrich University of Vienna "This is the first book to take a serious look at...the refiguring of Tibet in Western consciousness and of the complex and ambiguous position of Tibetan refugees....[The contributors] examine Tibetan issues with the full range of theoretical resources of contemporary scholarship. This is an important book for Tibetan studies and is likely to interest many in the wider fields of cultural studies and postmodern studies." Geoffrey Samuel Lancaster University ======================================================================= BIBLIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION: A volume in the "World Heritage Studies on Transnationalism and Multiculturailsm" for which Mohammed A. Bamyeh serves as Series Editor. Publication date: July 30, 1997 c. 256 pp 1-896064-12-4 paperback US$19.95 ======================================================================= ORDER FORM: To: World Heritage Press 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 Fax (514) 771 2776 [ ] Send me _Constructing Tibetan Culture_ @ US-$19.95 each, plus $5 for shipping and handling for first copy, $1.50 for each additional copy. [ ] Check enclosed in the amount of US-$ ____________, made payable to World Heritage Press. [ ] Bill my institution (Purchase order enclosed) Delivery address: Name ____________________________________________________________ Address _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ City/State/Zip __________________________________________________ Tel ______________________________ Fax __________________________ Email ___________________________________________________________ ======================================================================= 06.97 From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Fri May 30 20:18:22 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 12:18:22 -0800 Subject: The lunar month and gestation Message-ID: <161227030645.23782.7505525502792051190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Charaka SaMhitA, gestation occurs thus: First month - the discharge of the male and female unite. Second - the unified fluid condenses and becomes shaped like a kidney bean. Third - The bodily organs are formed. Fourth - the bones are formed. Fifth - skin develops around the body. Sixth - hair develops. Seventh - knowledge enters the fetus. Eighth - The fetus takes nourishment through the umbilical cord. Ninth - the desire to be born develops (Udvega). Tenth - delivery takes place. According to certain Indian lore, the sex of the child is determined by whether the sexual discharge during union is greater for the male, resulting in a male child, or the female, resulting in a female child. When you combine this belief with the general desire for male offspring, I wonder if this had an adverse effect on female satisfaction...;) Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri May 30 19:20:56 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 12:20:56 -0700 Subject: The lunar month and gestation Message-ID: <161227030647.23782.13116109199588570590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:38 AM 5/30/97 BST, Martin gansten wrote: >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann writes: >>The average duration of pregnancy is about 280 days, or 40 weeks of 7 days. > >Well, no, not if you mean the actual period of gestation; the average would >actually be about 38 weeks, as reckoned from the time of conception (though >there is plenty of scope for individual variation). The 40 week average >refers to the time of pregnancy as reckoned from the first day of the >mother's last period, which is more easily discernible; conception is >supposed to take place two weeks thereafter. You are right. But I think that what is relevant in the present context is what is discernible, as you say. In other words, what was probably observed when we read that 10 months are the gestation period. Actually, even today it is not uncommon to say that gestation lasts for 10 lunar months of 28 days (as I discovered years ago when getting ready for the birth of my children). This is from the online Britannica: "gestation...in mammals, the time between conception and birth, during which the embryo or fetus is developing in the uterus. This definition raises occasional difficulties because in some species (e.g., monkeys and man) the exact time of conception may not be known. In these cases the beginning of gestation is usually dated from some well-defined point in the reproductive cycle (e.g., the beginning of the previous menstrual period)." Best, Luis From mgansten at sbbs.se Fri May 30 11:43:09 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 13:43:09 +0200 Subject: Tamil self-tuition course Message-ID: <161227030634.23782.601319681933497640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having wanted to learn Tamil for quite some time, I now see that desire gradually turning into a necessity. Unfortunately, though, the universities in my vicinity do not offer any such courses. I have therefore begun to look around for some self-tuition packages (including audio cassettes or CDs for learning pronunciation) to get me started. Could the Tamil scholars on this list recommend any such particular package, or conversely, are there any that you would advise against buying? All suggestions are most welcome. Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri May 30 18:40:26 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 14:40:26 -0400 Subject: Metric Melodies Message-ID: <161227030644.23782.4060921384015999471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ten days ago I posted a query on where I might find recordings of the melodies attached to various metres. This morning, I happened upon the title: Vedic Recitation in Varanasi, Wayne Howard. Motilal Banarsidass, 1986. $34.00. This volume purports to have "musical transcriptions of various recitations modes" -- whatever that means. The reference is to the various Vedic recitation styles found in Banaras - RV recitation of folks originally from regions like Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, who moved to Varanasi over the centuries including the 19th/20th, SV recitation of Gujarati/TN sAmavedins... similarly in the case of YV... AV recitation too finds mention. Nambudiri recitation from Kerala is not dealt with in this book because, significantly, there are no Nambudiri reciters in Varanasi... Wayne Howard mentions that the only Nambudiri in Varanasi, to his knowledge, involved with the Vedas is a scholar in one of the Sanskrit colleges in the city... and even he belongs to the "OttilAta" sub-sect of Nambudiris who are not allowed to receive the Vedas in the (oral) traditional manner. I assume the "musical transcriptions" are in Western notation. Yes... more examples can be found in Wayne Howard's other book "Samavedic Chant", Yale University Press, 1977. This book has transcriptions of SV recitation from different regions of the country. -Srini. From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Fri May 30 20:03:18 1997 From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (GAIL COELHO) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 15:03:18 -0500 Subject: Tamil self-tuition course Message-ID: <161227030648.23782.16090892243291799178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you want to learn Tamil, for use in conversation with people, I would reccommend using "An intensive course in Tamil" by S. Rajaram, published by the Central Institute of Indian Languages, Mysore - 570006, India. This book teaches Spoken Tamil, unlike most books, which teach Literary Tamil. The spelling of Tamil words is also modified to match (atleast phonemically) the pronunciations of these words in actual speech. But if you are learning Tamil for use in reading Tamil literature, then the more traditional teaching courses should be better. I don't have a list of these books at the moment. Gail Coelho. On Fri, 30 May 1997, Martin Gansten wrote: > Having wanted to learn Tamil for quite some time, I now see that desire > gradually turning into a necessity. Unfortunately, though, the universities > in my vicinity do not offer any such courses. I have therefore begun to look > around for some self-tuition packages (including audio cassettes or CDs for > learning pronunciation) to get me started. Could the Tamil scholars on this > list recommend any such particular package, or conversely, are there any > that you would advise against buying? All suggestions are most welcome. > > Thanks in advance, > > Martin Gansten > mgansten at sbbs.se > > > From bpj at netg.se Fri May 30 14:00:51 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 16:00:51 +0200 Subject: the gods Message-ID: <161227030636.23782.13948467397753728208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:17 30.5.1997, Adi Hastings wrote: >On Thu, 29 May 1997, George Thompson wrote: > >> >> I'm prepared to be cordial. But let's be honest also. This is not about >> science and religion. It's about Howard's religion, and he doesn't want me >> to talk about it. >> >> Fine. I won't talk about Howard's religion. I'll talk about Vedic, >exclusively. >> >> kRNo'mi satya'm Uta'ye... >> >> George >> > >This anecdote is not entirely relevant, but it does touch on some of >the matters discussed in the current thread. > When I was an undergraduate, a Sanskrit professor of mine said to me: >"Well, Max Mueller's theory of Rig Vedic religion being originally a cult >of the sun makes complete sense if you realize that he got up every >morning at the crack of dawn. He was one of those people who would today >call people up on the phone at 7 in the morning!" I even read somewhere that MM himself was an active sun-worshipper. In any case he was immersed in the very same romantic milieu where Asconan sun-cult originated. BPJ From jai at mantra.com Sat May 31 02:34:18 1997 From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 16:34:18 -1000 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030653.23782.1942625357229456625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members: Allow me to point out that ancient scientific ideas are gaining their entrance into the modern scientific mindset slowly. A few examples are the principle of bloodletting, the use of psyllium husk and neem. Another is the use of garlic -- see Sainani, G.S., et al. "Effect of Dietary Garlic and Onion on Serum Lipid Profile in Jain Community." Ind. J. Med. Res. (1979) 69:776. According to Ayurved, garlic is generally an anti-vata and anti-kapha agent with several other properties. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sat May 31 01:02:45 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 18:02:45 -0700 Subject: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.) Message-ID: <161227030651.23782.14245862753874464823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Thu May 29 12:29:25 1997 >Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by mail.liv.ac.uk > with Local-SMTP (PP); Thu, 29 May 1997 > >Which facts discovered microbiologically by modern science >have been compared with corresponding ancient ideas to conclude >that there is no conenction between them? Dhanyavaad in advance. > >Jai Maharaj > > > If your question is in response to ancient Hindu "microbiology" the question that would arise would be "Did the concept of microbi ology exist then, as we understand it now?" In general, if you look at Hindu thought as regarding food and its medicinal value, then I can provide an example where modern science contradicts ancient Hindu ideas. Modern Science tells us that garlic is very good for health i.e. it helps reduce blood presuure, whereas in Ancient Hindu writings, garlic has always been more vilified than praised (probably on account of its smell). The same is true of Onion, there are any number of ancient writers who had negative things to say about "Palan~Du", including a few subhashitaas which are normally taught to children who have started learning Sanskrit. Modern Science holds this to be incorrect. As regards conflicting ideas in conception, Srini Pichumani wrote yesterday that there seemed to be a conflict between Hindu scripture and Modern Science as regards the time period for a sperm to come to a stage where it could fertilize the egg. If you are willing to consider Western thought from the middle ages, then what Dr Jonathan Silk has to say would be true in many cases i.e. the theory of vegetative force, leaching and "bad blood" are just a few theories that come to mind... Krishna --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From srini at engin.umich.edu Sat May 31 03:43:42 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 30 May 97 23:43:42 -0400 Subject: a simple (silly?) question (was Re: Metric Melodies) Message-ID: <161227030655.23782.11040977618926403266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Howard mentions that the >only Nambudiri in Varanasi, to his knowledge, involved >with the Vedas is a scholar in one of the Sanskrit >colleges in the city... and even he belongs to the >"OttilAta" sub-sect of Nambudiris who are not allowed >to receive the Vedas in the (oral) traditional manner. (You mean sub-caste?) Yes... if you insist ! I'm confused by the expression "to receive the vedas". What I meant is that there are groups of Nambudiris, on the whole a minority, who were traditionally not permitted to learn/recite the Vedas. The explanation given is that these groups lost their "purity" at some point in history... due to their involvement with medicine and healing, martial arts etc. -Srini. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sat May 31 07:50:41 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 00:50:41 -0700 Subject: a simple (silly?) question (was Re: Metric Melodies) Message-ID: <161227030658.23782.1467201276519541720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >What I meant is that there are groups of Nambudiris, on > >the whole a minority, who were traditionally not permitted > >to learn/recite the Vedas. The explanation given is that > >these groups lost their "purity" at some point in history... > >due to their involvement with medicine and healing, martial > >arts etc. > > Yet that subgroup of the Nambudiris are still considered > to be brahmans? In other words the statement that the first > three varnas are permitted to learn the vedas (whereas > shudras are not) is an oversimplification, as in fact there can > be subgroups of the first three varnas who also were not taught > the vedas? Yes. Almost everything that is said about varNas is an oversimplification. Those who read only the texts probably do not realize it, and continue to think of all brahmins as one homogeneous group. Those who research the social reality understand how complicated the power relationships within the castes really are. Vidyasankar ps. I was under the impression that the ottillAta nambUdiris were supposed to be a result of a curse that SankarAcArya is supposed to have laid on some relatives of his, barring them from Vedic study. Is this correct? From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Sat May 31 00:11:13 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 02:11:13 +0200 Subject: a simple (silly?) question (was Re: Metric Melodies) Message-ID: <161227030650.23782.13154784755300095897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Howard mentions that the >only Nambudiri in Varanasi, to his knowledge, involved >with the Vedas is a scholar in one of the Sanskrit >colleges in the city... and even he belongs to the >"OttilAta" sub-sect of Nambudiris who are not allowed >to receive the Vedas in the (oral) traditional manner. (You mean sub-caste?) I'm confused by the expression "to receive the vedas". I thought that meant that the child after being "confirmed" was taught the vedas, which in principle applies to ksatriyas and vaizyas as well? Here are you using it as meaning to have a tradition of transmission of the veda within the same jati? Should one distinguish the way in which the general public receive the vedas (those people being brahmans, ksatriyas or vaizyas) from the way those (exclusively brahman) jatis which specialize in the transmission of the vedas receive the vedas? From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Sat May 31 15:47:44 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 08:47:44 -0700 Subject: Nambudris etc. Message-ID: <161227030663.23782.2918703720026839204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: May 31, 1997 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, In the following exchange between Srini, Vidyasankar and Jacob Baltuch there is an interesting use of the notion of "correct" in terms of "history". What seems to be meant is something more like the Brahman historical discourse(s). Needless to say, another interpretation of the "history" of why the particular groups of Nambudris were not allowed to receive the Vedas (whether THIS is true, I don't know), is that they were not originally "Brahman", but "Sudra." Rights to any number of priveledges are claimed all the time in India, and usually vehemently opposed, and eventually settled (accepted, rejected or compromised) by either the ruler, or a clientele, for whatever benefit it might be to themselves. The end result eventually ends up as "historical" legend or text or "social reality" within the subsequent discourse(s) of the particular communities involved. It is in this sense, then, we might say, "Yes, that is correct" from a historical perspective; in this case, it would seem, "correct" means within the communities of Brahmans. I won't go into "what really happened ...", because in "history" there is no such thing unless we we have independent documents of it AT THE TIME. ------------------------------------------- What I meant is that there are groups of Nambudiris, on the whole a minority, who were traditionally not permitted to learn/recite the Vedas. The explanation given is that these groups lost their "purity" at some point in history... due to their involvement with medicine and healing, martial arts etc. -Srini. --------------- Those who research the social reality understand how complicated the power relationships within the castes really are. Vidyasankar ps. I was under the impression that the ottillAta nambUdiris were supposed to be a result of a curse that SankarAcArya is supposed to have laid on some relatives of his, barring them from Vedic study. Is this correct? Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Sat May 31 06:53:09 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 08:53:09 +0200 Subject: a simple (silly?) question (was Re: Metric Melodies) Message-ID: <161227030656.23782.6172467003620573054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >What I meant is that there are groups of Nambudiris, on >the whole a minority, who were traditionally not permitted >to learn/recite the Vedas. The explanation given is that >these groups lost their "purity" at some point in history... >due to their involvement with medicine and healing, martial >arts etc. Yet that subgroup of the Nambudiris are still considered to be brahmans? In other words the statement that the first three varnas are permitted to learn the vedas (whereas shudras are not) is an oversimplification, as in fact there can be subgroups of the first three varnas who also were not taught the vedas? From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat May 31 08:31:27 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 09:31:27 +0100 Subject: Garlic (was: re: Gestation (was re: mathematics etc.)) Message-ID: <161227030660.23782.10290358904976055852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, Garlic is also praised strongly within the ayurvedic tradition. There is the famous La"suna text in the Bower manuscripts, of course, and the even fuller chapter in the Kasyapasamhita, which even includes a description of an annual Garlic Festival (la"sunotsava). All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat May 31 08:48:54 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 09:48:54 +0100 Subject: School of Oriental and African Studies library Message-ID: <161227030661.23782.14760959450828647296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received a notice to say that the library of the School of Oriental and African Studies will be closed from Monday 9th June to Saturday 14th June inclusive, and will reopen at 9am on Monday 16th June. This is due to a stock check. From gvvajrac at facstaff.wisc.edu Sat May 31 17:47:44 1997 From: gvvajrac at facstaff.wisc.edu (Gautama Vajracharya) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 12:47:44 -0500 Subject: Gestation Message-ID: <161227030665.23782.9396582140064202600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those who are interested in the Indian concept of gestation may like to read my recent article on the frog hymn (RV. 7. 103) which has been accepted for the upcoming issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. I will quote a paragraph from the article: "In general the word saMvatsara means a year, but originally it denoted only ten lunar months of gestation. The original meaning, however, remained intact throughout the history of Vedic literature when the word is used in the context of pregnancy, in particular atmospheric pregnancy, which begins in autumn and ends with the birth of a rain child... Some Vedic statements mention ten lunar months as the normal duration of pregnancy, and others merely use the term saMvatsara to denote the same period of time." Any comments or criticism will be highly appreciated. Gautama Vajracharya From fp7 at columbia.edu Sat May 31 22:25:49 1997 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Sat, 31 May 97 18:25:49 -0400 Subject: experiences with d.k.agencies (question) Message-ID: <161227030666.23782.11587829924720846479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 May 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > At 04:28 29.05.97 BST, you wrote: > > > >I have ordered Urdu and Hindi books from them often and have found their > >service excellent. Their catalogues are also many cuts above what most > >booksellers offer. I've found it well worthwhile being on their mailing > >list; I end up using them more than most other sources. > > > > > > > >On Wed, 28 May 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > > > >> since i'm gonna order a few items through d.k.agencies, > >> i'd like to know what i am in for. > > Given the brilliant testimonial above, would it be possible to have the > address of d.k. agencies? > > Lars Martin Fosse > Here it is: D.K. Agencies (P) Ltd. A/15-17, Mohan Garden, Najafgarh Road New Delhi 110 059 Phones 011-559-8897, 559-8899 Fax 555-8898 Email