From mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Sat Mar  1 02:54:04 1997
From: mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 07:54:04 +0500
Subject: Indo-Germanic and Svastika
Message-ID: <161227028683.23782.15635923212676065255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The use of svastika sign in Harappan inscriptions is very emphatic and 
occurs in contexts which seem to connote something significant. Here
are some instances:

On a tablet found in Harappa 
(M.S.Vats, Excavations in Harappa, 1940, Pl. XCIII, 306),
FIVE svastika glyphs (alternating right- and left-armed), 
each enclosed within a rectangular border are presented in series. This
series follows three other signs: two overlapping ovals (like bangles), 
two long linear strokes and a pitcher with a rim. These three signs
are repeated on the reverse side of the tablet.

On a three-sided (prism) tablet from Mohenjodaro
[EJH Mackay, Further Excavations in Mohenjodaro, 1937, Pl. LXXXII, 1(a)]
the svastika within a rectangular border occurs in this pictorial sequence:
Fabulous animal with the body of a ram, horns of a bull, trunk of an elephant,
hindlegs of a tiger and an upraised serpent-like tail; a person seated on a tree with
a tiger below with its neck turned to look back; a svastika within a square border;
an elephant. One one of the three sides of the prism tablet, there is an inscription
with eight signs (some of which are: a pair of rectangular dice-boards, a pipal leaf
superimposed on the frame of a body carrying a club and also a unique sign which
looks like a shrimp or prawn ligatured with 'ears' This particular sign is unique because
there is only one other sign which gets similarly ligatured: the pipal leaf.).

Scores of seals containing this glyph are prepared with extraordinary care ensuring
geometric symmetry emphasizing the four arms of the glyph. 

Of course, there are other solar glyphs such as tablet depicting a circle with radiating
rays of the sun.

Regards, Kalyanaraman.

At 06:39 PM 2/28/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>> On the subject of svastika, can it be explained why or how this sign 
>> (both right and left pointing) occurs on the Harappan inscriptions?
>
>The svastika is one of the most widely distributed signs. I am
>deeply sceptical of the assumption that it is a marker for any particular
>ethnic group or that it `belongs' to any particular group.
>
>In fact, I remember reading a claim that if young children, not exposed
>to this sign, are left to freely doodle, this is one of the doodles that
>occurs very commonly. I don't know if this is indeed true. Can anyone
>confirm or deny this. [If true, it seems that this is worth being
>publicized more.]
>-Nath
>
>
>





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Sat Mar  1 18:53:27 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 13:53:27 -0500
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028686.23782.12893489651107419025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	In India the problem is that people do not connect the "aryan" 
	with fascism. That is after all a European phenomenon. How will 
	you convince your Indian colleagues to go easy on the term "Aryan"? 
	Their aryans are, after all, their legitimate forefathers. 
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Somehow, you would be forcing upon them a moral dilemma for which 
	they are not responsible to begin with.


Lars,  I do appreciate your sympathetic statements above... but I have
trouble with the marked line above...  as a traditional Indian,  I would 
refuse to see the term "Arya" in any genealogical/lineal/racial sense as 
implied above.  Acceptance or rejection of the Vedic heritage doesn't
affect this.

On the other hand, as modern Indians (dis)abused by Indology ;-) 
at least a good many of us would deny any Aryan forefathership
claiming Dravidian/Australoid or whatever.

Anyway, inspired by all of this,  I wrote this ponderous verse:

	We're Aryans fair and true
	Shout some Northies out of da blue
	But,  we're in there too
	Chime the Southies along a few
	
	Dravidians we stand proud
	Claim a chunk of the rest aloud
	Damn it, for crying out loud
	It's all an Indology shroud 
	
	Whine the rest of us mongrels, a crowd. 

Regards,
-Srini.





From Sfauthor at aol.com  Sat Mar  1 18:59:30 1997
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 13:59:30 -0500
Subject: More on copyright
Message-ID: <161227028688.23782.17978092619897477707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes, the law can be confusing. The lawyers like it that way--it gives them
job security.

Here are some resources for learning more about copyright (all mostly U. S.
centered, except the Wired article on the World Intellectual Property
Organization conference held in December in Geneva).


http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/

http://www.benedict.com

The Copyright Handbook, 3rd Edition, Fishman, Nolo Press, Berkeley, 1996,
ISBN 0-87337-323-5.

"Confab Clips Copyright Cartel," Wired magazine, March, 1997.


Keep in mind that ethics and the law are two different things. If they were
identical, we wouldn't have so many lawyer jokes.

I also wouldn't assume that the publishers of the disks in question are going
to make a bundle. Would you pay a lot of money for raw Sanskrit texts? When
the identical texts are available for free?

As a final historical tidbit, you may be interested to know that in a
conflict between copyright and the First Amendment, copyright usually trumps
the First Amendment. Why? Because the First Amendment is just an amendment,
while copyright appears in the *body* of the U. S. Constitution. Why? Recall
that many of the founding fathers were prodigious writers and inventors.

Brian Akers
sfauthor at aol.com






From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU  Sat Mar  1 23:11:19 1997
From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 17:11:19 -0600
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028693.23782.10294608760539141841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




Kudos

-Narahari Achar

>From:	IN%"indology at liverpool.ac.uk"  1-MAR-1997 12:58:48.41
>Subj:	RE: Indo-Germanic
>
>
>	In India the problem is that people do not connect the "aryan" 
>	with fascism. That is after all a European phenomenon. How will 
>	you convince your Indian colleagues to go easy on the term "Aryan"? 
>	Their aryans are, after all, their legitimate forefathers. 
>	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	Somehow, you would be forcing upon them a moral dilemma for which 
>	they are not responsible to begin with.
>
>
>Lars,  I do appreciate your sympathetic statements above... but I have
>trouble with the marked line above...  as a traditional Indian,  I would 
>refuse to see the term "Arya" in any genealogical/lineal/racial sense as 
>implied above.  Acceptance or rejection of the Vedic heritage doesn't
>affect this.
>
>On the other hand, as modern Indians (dis)abused by Indology ;-) 
>at least a good many of us would deny any Aryan forefathership
>claiming Dravidian/Australoid or whatever.
>
>Anyway, inspired by all of this,  I wrote this ponderous verse:
>
>	We're Aryans fair and true
>	Shout some Northies out of da blue
>	But,  we're in there too
>	Chime the Southies along a few
>	
>	Dravidians we stand proud
>	Claim a chunk of the rest aloud
>	Damn it, for crying out loud
>	It's all an Indology shroud 
>	
>	Whine the rest of us mongrels, a crowd. 
>
>Regards,
>-Srini.
>





From garzilli at shore.net  Sat Mar  1 23:51:50 1997
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 18:51:50 -0500
Subject: IJTS: Khajuraho on the WWW
Message-ID: <161227028684.23782.7435331017203699211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

INTERNATIONAL  JOURNAL  OF  TANTRIC  STUDIES
                Vol. 2 (1996), No. 2, November 30
             ISSN 1084-7553 Copyright (c)1995-96 IJTS
              http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/
              ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india

Dear Colleagues,

Issue Vol. 2, No. 2 (Nov. 1996) has just been published 
on our WWW pages.

CONTENTS:
- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
- PAPER: *Sexual Imagery on the _Phantasmagorical 
  Castles_ at Khajuraho* by Michael Rabe (with 24 
  pictures)
- COMPUTER SPACE: *The New Nina Fonts and Macros for
  Devanagari* by Ludovico Magnocavallo 
- NEW TITLES:
  Review of Giorgio Renato Franci (ed.) *Studi Orientali 
  e Linguistici. V (1994-95)* (Enrica Garzilli)
  Review of Ram Nath Kak *Autumn Leaves. Kashmiri
  Reminiscences* (Enrica Garzilli)
  Review of Swami Satyananda Saraswati (tr.) *ChaNDI 
  pATh*
  (Enrica Garzilli)
- COPYRIGHT NOTICE
 

Enjoy the reading,

EG
-- 
-- 
Dr. Enrica Garzilli
Univ. of Perugia (ITALY)
Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS 
(http://www.shore.net/~india)
*************************************************************






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sat Mar  1 20:30:11 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 20:30:11 +0000
Subject: Public domain vs. copyright
Message-ID: <161227028689.23782.3103069124192308545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 Sfauthor at aol.com wrote:

> Therefore, all the texts discussed in Indology are in the public domain and
> simply not copyrightable. 

That goes for the *original*, i.e., manuscript of the work.  But copyright 
inheres in the work of editing etc.  Copyright is a very practical matter:
it is about rights to actually copy a physical object, including a
computer file.  The particular computer files in question are copyrighted,
and will remain so until 70 years after the death of the creator of the
file.

... at least that is my present belief.  Copyright is a nightmare to
understand, and frankly nobody has solved the many problems that arise
when trying to apply the print-oriented Copyright laws to the internet. 
The only person I know who contributed meaningfully and practically to
this area is Ted Nelson, author of Literary Machines (I have a signed
copy!) who solved all these problems in his Xanadu system.  Sadly, that
initiative seems to have run into the sand.  There was an excellent
writeup on it in Wired magazine about a year ago.

Dominik






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sat Mar  1 20:38:35 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 20:38:35 +0000
Subject: Mechandising electronic texts
Message-ID: <161227028691.23782.12102970500200137176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

I know we have all been perturbed by the Munich company selling "our"
files on CDROM.  As you know, I have written to the company, and I shall
let you know the upshot if the company replies.

However, I should like to encourage you all not to feel too depressed or
helpless about this matter.  Actually, the members of INDOLOGY form a
fairly powerful lobby.  There are about 530 of us at the moment.  If we
agreed each to write a letter to this company, criticising their practice
and promising not ever to use the company's services now or in the future,
and to discourage all our friends, universities, and libraries from ever
using this company, I'm sure the effect would be devastating.  Even if
only half of us did it.  An influx of letters to this effect from all over
the world would be sure to have the effect we desire.

There are several other things we could do too, like providing a competing
but cheaper service, and so forth.

However, let's not do anything hasty until we know more about what is
going on, and the exact terms on which the disks are being offered, etc.
It might turn out to be a genuinely helpful service by someone
well-motivated but slightly misguided.  Actually, that is my best guess at
what is going on.  I mean, Donald Trump would hardly start selling
Sanskrit classics, would he?

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Sun Mar  2 02:18:50 1997
From: mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 07:18:50 +0500
Subject: Mechandising electronic texts and Tajmahal
Message-ID: <161227028695.23782.12500834314339650080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I agree with the approach suggested by Dominik who should take the lead
and advise us on what we should do in due course on the CD-ROM problem.

Talking of Donald Trump and copyright etc., I heard somewhere that he
holds the copyright or Trade Mark regn. for the name TAJMAHAL. Is it true?
Regards. Kalyanaraman.

At 09:02 PM 3/1/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>I know we have all been perturbed by the Munich company selling "our"
>files on CDROM.  As you know, I have written to the company, and I shall
>let you know the upshot if the company replies.
>
>However, I should like to encourage you all not to feel too depressed or
>helpless about this matter.  Actually, the members of INDOLOGY form a
>fairly powerful lobby.  There are about 530 of us at the moment.  If we
>agreed each to write a letter to this company, criticising their practice
>and promising not ever to use the company's services now or in the future,
>and to discourage all our friends, universities, and libraries from ever
>using this company, I'm sure the effect would be devastating.  Even if
>only half of us did it.  An influx of letters to this effect from all over
>the world would be sure to have the effect we desire.
>
>There are several other things we could do too, like providing a competing
>but cheaper service, and so forth.
>
>However, let's not do anything hasty until we know more about what is
>going on, and the exact terms on which the disks are being offered, etc.
>It might turn out to be a genuinely helpful service by someone
>well-motivated but slightly misguided.  Actually, that is my best guess at
>what is going on.  I mean, Donald Trump would hardly start selling
>Sanskrit classics, would he?
>
>All the best,
>Dominik
>
>--
>Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
>email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
><URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545
>
>
>
>
>





From Sfauthor at aol.com  Sun Mar  2 20:01:49 1997
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 15:01:49 -0500
Subject: Final post on copyright
Message-ID: <161227028696.23782.2383544324708901794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I should preface my final remarks by stating that I am not a lawyer (and all
my other habits are good, too) and that nothing I say should be construed as
giving legal advice.

Copyright protects original works. Writing is original, retyping is not,
translating is.

What exactly is original is a subject for debate (lobbying, bribery,
litigation . . . ) as we move into an economy where most of us assemble,
modify, distribute and reassemble pieces of information. In fact, there is a
panel at the ACM conference discussing the topic this very day, March 2nd.
Info at:

http://www.acm.org/acm97/conference/special_events.html

Those of us expending considerable effort on work that may not be
copyrightable may want to consider a quick technological fix. (And I bet you
thought quick technological fixes were a mythical beast on a par with
surgical air strikes!) For example, I believe (although I haven't done this
myself) that Adobe Acrobat allows one to make a document unprintable and/or
unchangeable. If one created a file consisting solely of an ancient text
(which I believe would not be copyrightable) one could begin the file with a
title page stating your name, that it is freely given to the public, that it
is not to be resold and so on. This would make it difficult for anyone to
resell.

I stand by my statement regarding the body of the U. S. Constitution vs.
amendments. It was clearly stated by a currently practicing intellectual
property attorney speaking on a panel devoted to copyright. 

I apologize for my remark on German motives for lengthening the duration of
copyright. Never take satire literally. (Here, I violated the
corollary--never use satire where it might be taken literally or where nerves
are exposed. I believe I am of 1/4 German ancestry. Or is it 1/8? I'll have
to ask mom. I'm fairly sure I'm not my own grandpa.)

Best wishes to every last one of you,

Brian Akers
sfauthor at aol.com






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Sun Mar  2 21:04:02 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 15:04:02 -0600
Subject: Beef Eating
Message-ID: <161227028698.23782.9841268783715574578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 
3/2/97
   
                   Re: Beef
                  ----------

V. P. Subramania Mudhaliar, Principal, Madras Vetenary College, Madras
wrote in Tamilian Antiquary, vol. 2, 1909

"vEta kaalattil carva aariyarum maaTTu maamicam pucittavarkaLEyaayinum
ikkaalattil mun^tiyavaruL (vaTa aariyaruL) cila vakuppaarE maamicam
pucippOr. pintiyavaruL (tennintiyaaviRku vantu tiraaviTarOTu kalan^tirukkiRa
aariyaruL) evvakuppaarum yaakavaayilaaka anRi maamicam puciyaar. vaTatEcattil
piraamaNar mikun^ta tiraLaay irun^tatanaal taangkaL maamicam tinnum pUrva
vazakkattai maRRaic caatikalin avamatippukku anjcik kaiviTavillai.
ten tEcattilO, piraamaNar tokai kuRaivaay irun^tatanaal maRRaic caati 
canangkaLin pazippukkup payappattup pulaal uNavaik kaiviTTanar. Aayinum
'pazakkam koTitu'. Aatalaal maamica paTcaNattai maRukka valiyaRRavarkaLaay
avarkaL, pulaaluNNaamaiyai inRiyamaiyaata uyarkula ozukkamaakak koNTa
mElcaatit tiraaviTaratu ikazcciyininRu tappum upaayattai n^aaTi, yaakamennum
viyaacattaal EkatEcamaaka maamicam pucippaaraayinar".

******************************************************
* Tamil Transliteration:                             *
* vowels, a aa/A i ii/I u uu/U e ee/E ai o oo/O au   *
* consonants, k ng c nj T N t n^ p m y r l v z L R n *
* Aytam, ah                                          *
******************************************************


One Translation:


"Even though in the Vedic period, all aryans were meat-eaters, nowadays,
among the former (Aryans of the north), only a few groups eat meat. Among the
latter (those who came to south India and mixed with the Dravidians), no
group will eat meat except through the performance of Vedic sacrificicial
ceremonies. 

As the brahmins lived in large numbers in north India, they did not have to
fear the low esteem in which they would be held by other castes if they ate
meat, and so did not abandon the habit of meat-eating. However, since the
number of brahmins was low in south India, they feared the abhorrence 
of other castes and gave up meat-eating. But "habit is cruel" (hard to break).
Therefore, as people unable to give up non-vegetarian food, seeking a ruse 
to escape disrespect from those upper caste Dravidians who always have 
vegetarianism as a necessary behavior of the high-born, they became 
occasional meat-eaters through the exercise called Vedic sacrifice."









From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Sun Mar  2 21:04:51 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 15:04:51 -0600
Subject: Beef Eating (2)
Message-ID: <161227028700.23782.17010799645385062453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


            Re: Beef in the Veda
           *********************

Because cow slaughter was prevalent in other Indo-Iranian cultures
and Vedas and post-vedic literature attest to it, after reading 
the informative postings, I believe that beef was eaten by
Aryans. When a lady in a Wendy's TV commercial asks:
"where is the beef?", we can confidantly say "In the Vedas!"
Is it not our time-tested Indian tradition to claim that everything
comes from Vedas?

May be vegetarianism is a Pre-Vedic concept. Jainism and Buddhism
start re-emphasizing vegetarianism. In the South, there was intense
competition between Hinduism vs. Jainism/Buddhism. Land owning
Vellalas and Smarta Brahmins formed a strategic alliance in 6-9th
centuries and finished off Jainism/Buddhism from Tamil lands.
The great Bhakti literature is a product of that period.

The pattern of eating meat and its socilogical dimension interests me. 
It has a lot to do with castes, origins of pollution/purity, hierarchy, 
discrimination of people. In India, vegetarianism does not stop
with personal preferences; it is an effective weapon to achieve
power.

An example from tamil nadu from bottom up,

Those who eat anything beef, pork,poultry, goat --> 
             Tirukkulattaar/Harijan/Adi Dravidas/Dalita etc.,

Above,
Those who eat any meat except beef, but including pork -->
             Vanniyar, etc

Above,             
Those who eat poultry, fish, goat (but not beef or pork) -->
             Many non-brahman castes

Above,
non-brahman castes who are vegetarian -->
              Saiva vellalas, etc.,

Top of the Pyramid,
brahmins.
             

However - in the about 20 centuries old tamil sangam literature, there is
evidence that many of today's high castes ate beef.

1) kozhuppu Aa tinRa kuurmpaTai maRavar - akanaanuuRu, 309.5
(maRavar warriors who ate fat cow.)

2) mazhavar naaku Aa viizhttut tiRRi tinra - aka: 249.13
(mazhavar chieftains eating the tendet beef from a young calf (= veal))

In the natioanl struggle for independence, the Hindu/Hindutva leaders exhorted 
people to make beef-eating, barbaric mlEcca colonizers quit India.

N. Ganesan
















From jagat at polyinter.com  Mon Mar  3 00:29:30 1997
From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 19:29:30 -0500
Subject: work ethic
Message-ID: <161227028701.23782.9132872991581353120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

I am currently engaged in a bibliographical project on the work ethic in
non-occidental traditions. I am soliciting help in the matter as my own
knowledge of the area is severely limited.

The discussion arises out of the Weberian thesis of the Protestant ethic,
which associates certain beliefs of the Puritans with their adoption of a
'rationalized' capitalism, which stresses efficiency, class mobility, etc.,
in contrast with traditional modes of 'mercantile' capitalism. As a
corollary proof to his thesis that the work ethic of the Puritans had a
unique character which accounted for the fact that Western European society
was the fountainhead of modern capitalism, Weber also engaged in studies of
non-Western societies. His critiques of Indian and Chinese religion, in
particular, were meant to demonstrate that these cultures had an 'ethic'
which was incapable of producing a rationalized capitalism of the Western
sort. This critique has produced a lengthy debate both in the East and the
West, particularly in view of certain developments in the history of the
work ethic in Western social history. 

Kantowsky (1982) and Buss (1985) hold that, contrary to the perception of
him held by many, Weber was not an ideologue for cultural imperialism but
one who believed that each society had to evolve an indigenous ethic which
reflects its own genius and will result in its own unique model of
development. The above-mentioned authors look to Gandhi as someone who
expressed just such an indigenous ethic and contrast him with Nehru whom
they feel tried to graft Western industrialization and economic structures
on a basically non-adaptable Indian personality. By way of contrast, Singer
(1972, 1985, etc.) holds that there are adaptive mechanisms by which modern
and traditional religious values can be brought into a certain harmony.
Bankim, Tilak, Vivekananda, etc., in their writings tried to harness the
concepts of karma-yoga and bring it into the service of the concept of
development and adoption of Western economic techniques.

It is the search for indigenous concepts of work as expressed in religious
and cultural traditions, in view of the need for modification in the
processes of modernization in the industrializing and non-industrialized
world, which is at the basis of this project. I am looking for up-to-date,
primarily secondary-source literature which pursues this debate, not only in
the Indian context, but in all non-Western
contexts. Naturally, any thoughts on the subject by scholars are most
enthusiastically welcomed.

Thanking you all in advance for your help,

Jan.
       	Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D.
1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0
       (819) 322-3382, 322-6146






From athr at loc.gov  Mon Mar  3 14:14:59 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 09:14:59 -0500
Subject: Public domain vs. copyright
Message-ID: <161227028703.23782.17057350972338548688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe that in the case of manuscripts of long-dead authors, the
copyright to a _manuscript_ belongs to the owner of the manuscript.  
E.g. if the BORI has the only MS of some work, you need its permission to
publish your transcription of the MS.  Question: if an institution or
other MS owner allows you to examine a MS as part of doing a critical
edition, involving several MSS, can it then decide it doesn't want you to
include its MS's readings in your publication?


Allen W. Thrasher

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.



On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 Sfauthor at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Therefore, all the texts discussed in Indology are in the public domain and
> > simply not copyrightable. 
> 
> That goes for the *original*, i.e., manuscript of the work.  But copyright 
> inheres in the work of editing etc.  Copyright is a very practical matter:
> it is about rights to actually copy a physical object, including a
> computer file.  The particular computer files in question are copyrighted,
> and will remain so until 70 years after the death of the creator of the
> file.
> 
> .. at least that is my present belief.  Copyright is a nightmare to
> understand, and frankly nobody has solved the many problems that arise
> when trying to apply the print-oriented Copyright laws to the internet. 
> The only person I know who contributed meaningfully and practically to
> this area is Ted Nelson, author of Literary Machines (I have a signed
> copy!) who solved all these problems in his Xanadu system.  Sadly, that
> initiative seems to have run into the sand.  There was an excellent
> writeup on it in Wired magazine about a year ago.
> 
> Dominik
> 
> 
> 






From hpauwels at u.washington.edu  Mon Mar  3 17:20:48 1997
From: hpauwels at u.washington.edu (Heidi Pauwels)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 09:20:48 -0800
Subject: Index of Guru Granth Saheb
Message-ID: <161227028707.23782.469993415446860418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With some delay indeed the index got published, I believe i 95 or 96. Best
to contact Winand himself to get details: at 
winand.callewaert at arts.kuleuven.ac.be.

Heidi Pauwels
University of Washington
Seattle
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, David Magier wrote:

> In 1994, Prof. Winand Callewaert (Leuven) sent around a flyer offering
> for sale a four-volume INDEX OF THE SHREE GURU GRANTH SAHEB (a
> "complete computer-produced index..."). Does anyone know if this was
> ever indeed published and whether it is still available for purchase? I
> do not find any record of a library having acquired or cataloged it on
> OCLC or RLIN...
> 
> Thanks.
> David Magier
> Columbia University
> 
> 







From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu  Mon Mar  3 15:47:32 1997
From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 09:47:32 -0600
Subject: work ethic
Message-ID: <161227028712.23782.13137276833861826692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Just on the subject of Weber's comparative project in general, the work of
Guenther Roth and Wolfgang Schluchter is, I think, unparallelled. E.g.,:

Roth, Guenther. 1971. Max Weber's comparative approach and historical
typology. In Ivan Vallier, ed. _Comparative Methods in Sociology_. Pp.
75-93. Berkeley: University of California Press.

Roth, Guenther. 1976. History and sociology in the work of Max Weber.
_British Journal of Sociology_ 27(3):306-318.

Roth, Guenther and Wolfgang Schluchter. 1979. _Max Weber's Vision of
History: Ethics and Methods_. Berkeley: University of California Press.

Schluchter, Wolfgang. 1987. Weber's sociology of rationalism and typology
of religious rejections of the world. In Scott Lash and Sam Whimster, eds.
_Max Weber, Rationality, and Modernity_. Pp. 92-115. London: Allen &
Unwin. [See also the essay by Pierre Bourdieu in the same volume].

One locus for debates on the development of "functional equivalents" of
the Protestant ethic in India is, as you probably are aware, Suzanne and
Lloyd Rudolph's (1967) _The Modernity of Tradition_.  Also, cf. the
debates between John Goheen, M. N. Srinivas, D. G. Karve, and Milton
Singer in vol. 7, no. 1 (1958) of _Economic Development and Cultural
Change_.  I'm not sure how much literature there actually has been in
recent years (say, the last decade) on these issues. Anyone else?

Adi Hastings
Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics
University of Chicago

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Jan Brzezinski wrote:

> It is the search for indigenous concepts of work as expressed in religious
> and cultural traditions, in view of the need for modification in the
> processes of modernization in the industrializing and non-industrialized
> world, which is at the basis of this project. I am looking for up-to-date,
> primarily secondary-source literature which pursues this debate, not only in
> the Indian context, but in all non-Western
> contexts. Naturally, any thoughts on the subject by scholars are most
> enthusiastically welcomed.
> 
> Thanking you all in advance for your help,
> 
> Jan.
>        	Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D.
> 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0
>        (819) 322-3382, 322-6146
> 
> 






From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de  Mon Mar  3 13:18:01 1997
From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 14:18:01 +0100
Subject: Veroeffentlichungen der Uni-Halle
Message-ID: <161227028705.23782.15508260826724621234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hallo,

Im Jahr 1984/1985 gab es eine Reihe von Veroeffentlichungen zum Thema:
Indien/Indologie von der Martin-Luther-Universitaet Halle-Wittenberg. Der 
Anlass dafuer war das 35jaehrige Bestehen der DDR. Viele davon waren bis 
zu dem Zeitpunkt unveroeffentlichte Manuskripte der Missionare; 
Bartholomaeus Ziegenbalg, Benjamin Schultze u.a, die in der ersten Haelfte 
des 18. Jahrhunderts im Sueden Indiens unterwegs waren.  

Meine Frage lautet, wie kann ich einige dieser Beitraege, insbesondere
die Werke von obengenannten Personen, erwerben. Ich habe versucht, am 
Institut fuer Indolgie der Uni-Halle einen Kontaktpartner zu finden. 
Anscheinend hat keine(r) der Mitarbeiter eine e-mailadresse.

Fuer jede Hilfe im Zusammenhang mit dem Erwerb dieser Werke waere ich
dankbar.

mit freundlichen Gruessen,
Sreenivas

-- 
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de






From apandey at u.washington.edu  Mon Mar  3 22:40:11 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 14:40:11 -0800
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028714.23782.7943981623219210031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Fco. Javier Martnez Garca wrote:

> > >Cf. F.R. Shapiro, (1981): +On the origin of the term `Indo-germanic'; 
> > >Historiographia Linguistica 8, p. 165-170.
> 
> > Does he say (by the way) who's the first one who used "Indoeuropean"?
> 
> No, he doesn't. But that's also a very interesting question.

I once read that Marcus Z. Boxhorn, a Dutch scholar, was the first to
postulate a theory of common origin of the Indo-European languages.
Although Boxhorn did not publish his work on the matter, his friend,
George Horn made his ideas known in Europe during the late seventeenth
century. Even though Boxhorn distinguished IE from Semitic and
Finno-Ugrian, he failed to add Persian and other Iranian languages to
this Indo-European group. Was Boxhorn the one to coin this "Indo-European"
term?

It seems that it wasn't until 1783 when Sir William Jones noticed
remarkable similarities between Persian and Sanskrit, and then between
Sanskrit, Latin, and Greek, that further in-depth studies were done on the
commonality of these languages. I don't think that Jones was the one to
coin IE.

I wish I could provide some references to these statements, but the above
is all I could dig out of my memory.

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey
apandey at u.washington.edu







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Mar  4 00:03:41 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 19:03:41 -0500
Subject: work ethic
Message-ID: <161227028715.23782.825231505669439123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sometime ago, on an National Public Radio program, the author of the recent
book "Death of Satan", was describing the world view of Puritans. Some of the
things he was saying especially with respect to how they explain the
occurrence of good and bad in life, reminded me of a poem in Classical Tamil
literature. My guess is that the ethical principles seen in the pre-Bhakti
Classical Tamil literature, may be close to Puritan world view. See
puRanaanuuRu 184, 189, and 192. However, as I am not an expert in that area.
You may want to check A. K. Ramanujan's translation,  Poems of Love and War. 

As for other works dealing with work ethic, one can look into translations of
'tirukkuRaL' , especially the sections dealing with not being lazy,
perseverence, agriculture, and education. There may be other material in the
Tamil didactic literature (collectively called "patineN kiiZkkaNakku") like
 the section 20  in "naalaTiyaar". I think there is a translation of "naalaTiy
aar" by G. U. Pope.


S. Palaniappan







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Mar  4 00:04:31 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 19:04:31 -0500
Subject: Veroeffentlichungen der Uni-Halle
Message-ID: <161227028717.23782.851384760830843395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-03-03 13:11:26 EST, sreeni at ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de
(Sreenivas Paruchuri) writes:

<< Subj:	Veroeffentlichungen der Uni-Halle
 Date:	97-03-03 13:11:26 EST
 From:	sreeni at ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
 Sender:	indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
 Reply-to:	indology at liverpool.ac.uk
 To:	indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Members of the list)
 
 Hallo,
 
 Im Jahr 1984/1985 gab es eine Reihe von Veroeffentlichungen zum Thema:
 Indien/Indologie von der Martin-Luther-Universitaet Halle-Wittenberg. Der 
 Anlass dafuer war das 35jaehrige Bestehen der DDR. Viele davon waren bis 
 zu dem Zeitpunkt unveroeffentlichte Manuskripte der Missionare; 
 Bartholomaeus Ziegenbalg, Benjamin Schultze u.a, die in der ersten Haelfte 
 des 18. Jahrhunderts im Sueden Indiens unterwegs waren.  
 
 Meine Frage lautet, wie kann ich einige dieser Beitraege, insbesondere
 die Werke von obengenannten Personen, erwerben. Ich habe versucht, am 
 Institut fuer Indolgie der Uni-Halle einen Kontaktpartner zu finden. 
 Anscheinend hat keine(r) der Mitarbeiter eine e-mailadresse.
 
 Fuer jede Hilfe im Zusammenhang mit dem Erwerb dieser Werke waere ich
 dankbar.
 
 mit freundlichen Gruessen,
 Sreenivas
  >>

The vestige of German I learnt 25 years ago tells me that this posting deals
with the manuscripts of missionaries like Bartholomaeus Ziegenbalg who were
in South India in the first half of 18th century. Since these missionaries
played a significant role in the Tamil area, I would really appreciate if
somebody could translate this posting into English.

S. Palaniappan 





From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Mon Mar  3 18:53:53 1997
From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 19:53:53 +0100
Subject: HL?
Message-ID: <161227028709.23782.5330850962969583505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

JS> In the kind reference to the Shapiro article on the origins of
Indo-germanic
JS> you use the abbreviation HL.  What does this mean?

Historiographia Linguistica

Cheers
J.M.

-- 
  Dr. Fco. Javier Martmnez Garcma ~ Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft
  Universitdt Frankfurt  ~   Postfach 11 19 32  ~  D-60054 Frankfurt
  tel. +49- 69- 7982-2847;  (sekr.) -3139  ~ fax. +49- 69- 7982-2873
  e-mail: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de






From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Mon Mar  3 18:58:02 1997
From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 19:58:02 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028710.23782.1439427175918240621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> >Cf. F.R. Shapiro, (1981): +On the origin of the term > >`Indo-germanic'; Historiographia Linguistica 8, p. 165-170.

> Does he say (by the way) who's the first one who used "Indoeuropean"?

No, he doesn4t. But that4s also a very interesting question.
J.M.



-- 
  Dr. Fco. Javier Martmnez Garcma ~ Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft
  Universitdt Frankfurt  ~   Postfach 11 19 32  ~  D-60054 Frankfurt
  tel. +49- 69- 7982-2847;  (sekr.) -3139  ~ fax. +49- 69- 7982-2873
  e-mail: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de






From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu  Tue Mar  4 03:25:11 1997
From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 21:25:11 -0600
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028724.23782.8628453154094610848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Olender's _The Languages of Paradise_ (1992; originally publ. in Fr.,
1989), he has a footnote (47, on page 11), which credits the first use of
"Indo-European" to an anonymous (attributed by Hans Siegert to T. Young) 
review of Adelung's _Mithridates, oder Allgemeine Sprachenkunde_ in _The
Quarterly Review_ 10 (Oct. 1813-Jan. 1814). Note also, footnotes 45 and 46
on the first uses (in Europe) of "Aryan" (attributed to Anquetil-Duperron)
and "Indo-Germanic" (generally attributed to J. von Klaproth (ca. 1823),
but Olender cites a usage in 1810 by C. Malte-Brun). 

Adi Hastings
Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics
University of Chicago



>?From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de 04 1997 Mar +0100 01:44:48
Date: 04 Mar 1997 01:44:48 +0100
Subject: Max Weber (Was: work ethic)
From: Peter Wyzlic <pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Adi Hastings <amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu> writes:

> I'm not sure how much literature there actually has been in
> recent years (say, the last decade) on these issues. Anyone else?

Not to forget the new critical and annotated edition of Weber's study
on Hinduism which was published under the auspices of the Bayerische
Akademie der Wissenschaften (Bavarian Academy of Sciences) at the end
of the last year (I do not have the references here at home). The
publisher is Mohr/Siebeck in Tuebingen, the chief editor Helwig
Schmidt-Glintzer, the editor-in-charge Karl-Heinz Golzio.

\bye
-- 
Peter Wyzlic                                          pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de


>?From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de 04 1997 Mar +0100 01:30:50
Date: 04 Mar 1997 01:30:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Indo-Germanic
From: Peter Wyzlic <pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"Fco. Javier Martnez Garca" <martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de> writes:

>  > >Cf. F.R. Shapiro, (1981): +On the origin of the term >
> >`Indo-germanic'; Historiographia Linguistica 8, p. 165-170.
>  > Does he say (by the way) who's the first one who used
> "Indoeuropean"?
>  No, he doesn4t. But that4s also a very interesting question.  J.M.

How about Konrad Koerner:
"Observations on the sources, transmission and meaning of
'Indo-European' and related terms in the development of linguistics."
In: Papers from the 3rd International Conference on Historical
Linguistics / Ed. by J. Peter Maher [et al.]. Amsterdam: Benjamins,
1982, p. 153-180 (there seems to be an article in Indogermanische
Forschungen 86 (1981[1982]), p. 1-29 which is of similar contents or
simply the same).

\bye

-- 
Peter Wyzlic                                     pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de





From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Tue Mar  4 01:34:02 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 02:34:02 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028718.23782.13932408417462901876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An Italian priest, Sassetti, noted correspondances between Italian
and Sanskrit, in letters of his written from Goa between 1583 and 1588.

Those were published in 1855, but I have no reference.









From thillaud at unice.fr  Tue Mar  4 05:03:18 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique Thillaud)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 06:03:18 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028855.23782.17187741528790687809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>In spite of the history of the word, "Indo-Germanic" has today, in my
>opinion, been "sanitized". Very few people today would use the word with its
>old ideological connotations. However, I can't see that it is a good term.
>Personally I prefer Indo-European. But I do not feel uneasy if a modern
>scholar uses "Indo-Germanic". I believe the frequency of Fascists among
>Indologists these days is fairly insignificant.

	Sorry, I can't agree. The word "Indo-Germanic" is not sanitized:

1) only scholars make a difference between germanic and german, Iceland is
just a poor 'alibi'.
2) I understand some german peoples are tired to hear their past, but
history is history and can't be changed just by good will. Wait one century
and Hitler will be the same historical product as Napoleon or Gengis Khan,
**not yet**.
3) the beast is still alive, and not just in Europa, and you know it.
4) one of the best french sanscritist, Jean Haudry, is member of the staff
of the 'Front National', specially for ideology.
5) I know 'romantische Deutschland' hated greek and latin words (and Europa
is a greek one), as Tamil hate hindi ones, as greek fascismus hated slavic
and turkish ones. The three have made a 'katharevousa' by an 'ethnic
epuration' of their languages to 'sanitize' it. That fails in Greece and I
like that.
6) Indo-European is a word not marked by nazionalism. The two terms are the
names of the two **subcontinents** where the so-named languages were early
spoken (with a bridge: Anatolia-Iran-Afghanistan). Here -European is not
just for Germany and Indo- is not just for the state named "Bharat" but
contains itself and Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka (apologies if
I've forget one). They are non-Indo-European languages in Bharat, yes, but
they are too in Europa.

	Yes, german scholars are free, yes they can use freely the word
"Indo-Germanic", but they must know that is an insult for some other people
in Europa.
	Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD (<-o)
Universite' de Nice-Sophia-Antipolis, France
write correctly: french
read easily but write hardly: english, italian, modern greek
read hardly (dictionnary needed): spanish, german, ancient greek, sanskrit







From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de  Tue Mar  4 06:18:51 1997
From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 07:18:51 +0100
Subject: Veroeffentlichungen der Uni-Halle
Message-ID: <161227028720.23782.7980709510260253535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> Palaniappa at aol.com sagte :

> In a message dated 97-03-03 13:11:26 EST, sreeni at ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de
> (Sreenivas Paruchuri) writes:
 
> The vestige of German I learnt 25 years ago tells me that this posting deals
> with the manuscripts of missionaries like Bartholomaeus Ziegenbalg who were
> in South India in the first half of 18th century. Since these missionaries
> played a significant role in the Tamil area, I would really appreciate if
> somebody could translate this posting into English.
                
I am sorry! It was supposed to be a personal message addressed to an
Indologist here in Germany and by mistake landed on the list.

Yes, you got the message. I am looking for a couple of their works which 
were published for the 'first' time in 1984/1985. As you know the first 
Tamil and Telugu grammars in European languages (to be precise in Latin) 
were brought out by these two people (Schultze and Ziegenbalg).

Regards,
Sreenivas

P.S. Could someone help me in re. to my previous (German) message!

-- 
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de





From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu  Tue Mar  4 13:54:59 1997
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 08:54:59 -0500
Subject: Copyrights
Message-ID: <161227028727.23782.9101832401995329796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



>Therefore, all the texts discussed in Indology are in the public domain
>and simply not copyrightable.

I am sure that critical editions are copyrightable (by those preparing
them). As some of the texts involved are critical editions, the editor (or
the publisher, if the copyright has been assigned to them) would hold the
copyright to the text.

The books on copyright for non-lawyers available in US public libraries
are orinted towards authors of fiction, songwriters and composers,
and computer programmers. The situation of Indology (or any area of
philology) is very different. Unless there has been case law, which I
am inclinded to doubt due to lack of profit, I am not sure how much
right the editors of texts have. On top of that, international treaty
obligations come into play. Recently, GATT restored some of the
copyrights of foreign authors that were lost according to the 1978 US
law. The books I consulted did not elaborate this beyond saying that
lack of copyright notice in a foreign book published before 198?
does not automatically make it public domain.

With these disclaimer out of the way, it should be remembered that the
owner of copyright holds rights to >all< derived works, including
translations and expressions in other media. Simply typing some text in,
irrespective of the thought that went into devising the tranliteration,
would not qualify as adequate for copyrighting. The effort, time and
cost do not by themselves confer any legal right, as the US Supreme Court
held in denying copyright to phone listings. [An interesting question
is the right to make translations of critical editions. I asked a
Classicist; he did not know the answer either.]

Another point is one I raised several months ago and but then
dropped because I did not want to hurt people's feelings. But I am
deeply troubled by the assertions being made in this list concerning
the rights of scribes vis-a-vis the rights of the editors of the
print versions.

Copyright of a critical edition belongs to the person(s) preparing the
edition. I am very doubtful of the claim that just by typing in such
a text, a new form with independent copyright has been made. In case of
editions made in India (in case of Jaimaniiya Braahmana, for example),
the legal situation may be complicated by the date when India became
a party to the UCC or other international treaties. But it is ethically
wrong to take advantage of that to try an copyright e-texts of such
editions. While I consider selling e-texts prepared by others to be theft,
I also consider copyrighting e-texts of editions prepared by others to be
equally immoral (worse, if it is being done by scholars who should know
better). To claim copyright on the e-text of JB, without permission to
prepare and distribute it from the legal owner of the copyright of the
print edition (if it is still in copyright) is theft as much as
selling the file without permission from the typist. On the other
hand, once a text passes into public domain, simply expressing it a
new medium cannot make it copyrightable, except for new >creative<
work that goes into it: You can copyright a new tune to a song in
public domain, but you cannot copyright the songs in an
electronic version of `Mother Goose Rhymes', simply because you
took the trouble to type them in. [You can copyright the compilation
qua compilation, but not the individual songs.]

Think about how you, and especially your publisher, would react if
someone in India typed in the text of a critical edition you have
prepared and claimed copyright on it. With all the pother about
the racism behind the term `Indo-Germanic', why is it hard to
recognize the same in this matter?

Based on the above principle, it would seem that the problem raised by
Allen Thrasher should not matter most of the time. Copyright emanates
from the author, not from scribes. The owner of a manuscript possesses
only those rights the author would possess, if he/she is/were alive.
So the people to be affected would be only those interested in
modern litterature (and commentaries, if they are of interest).

-----------

-Nath
Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu)		614-366-9341





From imj at u.washington.edu  Tue Mar  4 19:35:23 1997
From: imj at u.washington.edu (South Asia Section)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 11:35:23 -0800
Subject: South Asian genealogies
Message-ID: <161227028730.23782.3804209168227899306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Requests have come to Indology from time to time requesting information on
caste histories, genealogies etc. from South Asia.  Since it appears that
it will be some time before my compilation of South Asia caste, family and
dynastic histories becomes a web-site, I would like to let interested
South Asianists know that I have a database containing approximately 1,700
entries dealing with this topic.  The information is primarily from the
collections of the British Library, The India Office Library, the Library
of Congress and the National Library in Calcutta.  

If I can be of assistance to academic researchers in this subject area,
please contact me directly. 

South Asia Section
Irene Joshi, M.L.S.
joshi at u.washington.edu
South Asia Librarian
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, Washington, 98195-2900
U.S.A.
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~souasia/







From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in  Tue Mar  4 13:49:28 1997
From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Satchidananda)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 13:49:28 +0000
Subject: Veroeffentlichungen der Uni-Halle
Message-ID: <161227028722.23782.9627466286757717910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Palaniappan wrote:
The vestige of German I learnt 25 years ago tells me that this posting deals
with the manuscripts of missionaries like Bartholomaeus Ziegenbalg who were
in South India in the first half of 18th century. Since these missionaries
played a significant role in the Tamil area, I would really appreciate if
somebody could translate this posting into English.
 Hallo,
 
 Im Jahr 1984/1985 gab es eine Reihe von Veroeffentlichungen zum Thema:
 Indien/Indologie von der Martin-Luther-Universitaet Halle-Wittenberg. Der 
 Anlass dafuer war das 35jaehrige Bestehen der DDR. Viele davon waren bis 
 zu dem Zeitpunkt unveroeffentlichte Manuskripte der Missionare; ....

Here is the translation:

Hello,

In the year 1984/85 there was a series of publications on the subject India/Indology by Martin-Luther-University Halle-Wittenberg. The occasion was the 35th anniversary of GDR. Many of these texts were previously unpublished manuscripts of the missionaries Barholomaeus Ziegenbalg, Benjamin Schultze a.o., who travelled the South of India during the first half of the 18th century.
My question is, how can I acquire some of these contributions, especially the works of the above mentioned persons. I have tried to find a contact at the Institute for Indoligy at Halle Univ., but it seems that none of the colleges there has an e-mail address.
I will be thankful for any help in acquiring these texts.

With friendly greetings,
Sreenivas
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2237 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19970304/bf8a5d3e/attachment.bin>

From oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr  Tue Mar  4 19:59:20 1997
From: oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr (Boris Oguibenine)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 14:59:20 -0500
Subject: German Indology
Message-ID: <161227028725.23782.17599982486350572222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:05:43 GMT, John Brockington wrote:

>I would just like to add, as a British Indologist, how useful if have found the list 
>produced by Professor Schlingloff in keeping track of my German-speaking colleagues and 
>how pleased I am to have received copies of it in the past.   Its practical value is 
>immense.  I only wish that there were as convenient lists for other groups of 
>Indologists.  Perhaps the listings in process of compilation by the IIAS at Leiden will 
>go some way towards it, although inevitably any publication will be bulkier and so less 
>convenient to handle, since all of Asian Studies will be covered.
>
>. 
>John Brockington
>
>Dr J. L. Brockington
>Department of Sanskrit
>University of Edinburgh
>7 Buccleuch Place
>Edinburgh   EH8 9LW     U.K.
>
>tel: +31 650 4174
>fax: +31 650 6804

My comment: I am very grateful to Prof. Schlingloff for the booklet German 
Indologists which I found very useful. I confess that I have had no grim 
thought while perusing it! Just for information: about three or four 
years ago Russian Academy published two huge volumes on Orientalists in 
Russia, much alike to Prof. Schlingloff's work. I do not know yet about any 
adverse reaction towards this Russian publication.


Boris Oguibenine
oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr






From bthorp at plains.nodak.edu  Tue Mar  4 22:01:16 1997
From: bthorp at plains.nodak.edu (Burt M Thorp)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 16:01:16 -0600
Subject: Copyrights
Message-ID: <161227028731.23782.5024181503904722470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anyone interested in the "idea" of copyrighting literary texts and the 
absurdities connected with that and its origins in a romantic view of the 
author as original genius might enjoy the discussion in A. Kernan's book 
*The Death of Literature*.

Burt M. Thorp
University of North Dakota
Internet:  bthorp at plains.nodak.edu






From bpj at netg.se  Tue Mar  4 15:57:16 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 17:57:16 +0200
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028728.23782.1203175470403035442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


One aspect of the question about the two terms 'Indo-Germanic' and
'Indo-European' that imho deserves to be noticed is that 'Indo-Germanic'
seems to have ethnic connotations: "The languages of Indians, Germanians
(?) and those in between", while 'Indo-European' seems to have geographical
connotations: "the languages spoken from India to Europe. I think the term
'Indo-European' is preferable chiefly for that reason -- i.e. it don't mix
linguistic notions with any "biological" ones, however vague. It should be
noted that the term was coined and adopted before Tokharian was discovered.

Sarvam mangalam!

Philip Jonsson <bpj at netg.se>







From magier at columbia.edu  Wed Mar  5 01:41:01 1997
From: magier at columbia.edu (SARAI)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 20:41:01 -0500
Subject: Event Announcement
Message-ID: <161227028733.23782.2296598324734255622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing
list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI (South Asia
Resource Access on the Internet).
**Please contact event organizers directly for any further information.**

David Magier
SARAI

=======================================================
       The Southern Asian Institute of Columbia University
Conference for the 50th Anniversary of the Independence of India
                          and Pakistan
   Kellogg Center, School of International and Public Affairs
                         April 4-5, 1997
                                
       AMERICAN REPORTING ON INDIA AND PAKISTAN, 1947-1997
                                

April 4, 1997 (Friday)

2:00--4:00  Panel 1: Fifty Years Of Reporting

James Michaels (Forbes)
Phillips Talbot (President Emeritus, Asia Society)
Selig Harrison (Wilson Center)
Maureen Patterson (University of Chicago)

4:00-6:00  Panel 2: From Event To Printed Page: The Nuts And
Bolts Of Reporting

Steven Weisman (NY Times)
Tom Kent (AP)
Conrad Fink (University of Georgia)
Ronald Herring (Cornell).

April 5, Saturday

9:00--11:00  Panel 3: A 50-Year Story: Kashmir

Steve Coll (Washington Post)
Arnold Zeitlin (formerly AP)
Salamat Ali (The Muslim, Lahore)
Philip Oldenburg (Columbia University).

11:00--1:00  Panel 4: Impact Of Reporting On Government-to-
Government Relations

Louis Kraar (Fortune)
Shekhar Gupta (Indian Express)
Walter Andersen (Department of State)
Stephen Cohen (University of Illinois)

1:00--2:45  LUNCH, WITH KEYNOTE SPEECH (Phillips Talbot)

3:00-5:00  Panel 5: Impact Of Reporting On The Non-governmental
Sector

Mary Ann Weaver (The New Yorker)
Chitra Ragavan (National Public Radio)
Nathan Glazer (Harvard University)
Stanley Heginbotham (New York Academy of Sciences)

Advanced Registration Required: fee waived for Columbia faculty
and students; $25 for all others.  Contact: Southern Asian
Institute, 1128 International Affairs Building, 420 West 118th
Street, New York, NY 10027; tel. 212-854-3616; fax. 212-854-6987







From magier at columbia.edu  Wed Mar  5 01:55:30 1997
From: magier at columbia.edu (SARAI)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 20:55:30 -0500
Subject: STOP PRESS: event post correction
Message-ID: <161227028734.23782.654994694559053337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

STOP PRESS: Event organizers have notified me of errors in the event
announcement just forwarded to your mailing list of listserv. Here is
the revised, CORRECTED version of the announcement.
**Please contact organizers directly**

=================================================================
       The Southern Asian Institute of Columbia University
Conference for the 50th Anniversary of the Independence of India
                          and Pakistan
                         April 4-5, 1997
      "American Reporting on India and Pakistan, 1947-1997"
                                

April 4, 1997 (Friday)

2:00--4:00  Panel 1: Fifty Years of Reporting

James Michaels (Forbes)
Phillips Talbot (President Emeritus, Asia Society)
Selig Harrison (Wilson Center)
Maureen Patterson (University of Chicago)

4:00-6:00  Panel 2: From Event to Printed Page: The Nuts and
Bolts of Reporting

Steven Weisman (NY Times)
Tom Kent (AP)
Conrad Fink (University of Georgia)
Ronald Herring (Cornell)

April 5, Saturday

9:00--11:00  Panel 3: Kashmir

Steve Coll (Washington Post)
Arnold Zeitlin (formerly AP)
Salamat Ali (The Muslim, Islamabad)
Philip Oldenburg (Columbia University).

11:00--1:00  Panel 4: Impact of Reporting on Government-to-
Government Relations

Louis Kraar (Fortune)
Shekhar Gupta (Indian Express)
Walter Andersen (Department of State)
Stephen P. Cohen (University of Illinois)

1:00--2:45  LUNCH, WITH KEYNOTE SPEECH (Phillips Talbot)

3:00-5:00  Panel 5: Impact of Reporting on the Non-governmental
Sector

Mary Ann Weaver (The New Yorker)
Chitra Ragavan (National Public Radio)
Nathan Glazer (Harvard University)
Stanley Heginbotham (New York Academy of Sciences)

Advanced Registration Required: fee waived for Columbia faculty
and students; $25 for all others.  Contact: Southern Asian
Institute, 1128 International Affairs Building, 420 West 118th
Street, New York, NY 10027; tel. 212-854-3616; fax. 212-854-6987







From rsalomon at u.washington.edu  Wed Mar  5 15:53:09 1997
From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 07:53:09 -0800
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028744.23782.9911716073833995087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Lists of words used in chronograms are given in:
	
	1. P. V. Kane, History of Dharmasastra V, pt.1, pp. 701-3.

	2. G. Bu:hler, Indian Paleography..., 84-6.

	3. D. C. Sircar, Indian Epigraphy, pp. 230-3.

These sources (esp. Sircar, who gives ripu = 6) would seem to support your
interpretation of the date in question.  I don't find vairi- in any of the
lists, but it is obviously a synonym of ripu/ari, etc., and hence
presumably also = 6.

R. Salomon


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Adrian Burton wrote:

> Indologists,
> 
> I have come across the following date mentioned in the colophon of a MS:
> 
> ripuvairisaptap.rthvii
> 
> 
> I would have read that this as 1766 VS, but the catalogue for the MS says
> 1733 VS.  
> 
> Can anyone clarify the usage of "ripu" and "vairi" as anka?
> 
> Is there any reference book for these usages?
> 
> Merci d'avance,
> Adrian
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> Adrian Burton                      South and West Asia Centre
> Adrian Burton at anu.edu.au   Faculty of Asian Studies
> +61-6-279 8241                   Australian National University
> 
> 
> 






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Wed Mar  5 15:52:51 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 09:52:51 -0600
Subject: Tamil conference, Berkeley
Message-ID: <161227028748.23782.736670173138482731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


TAMIL IN AMERICA


Sponsored by  the Chair in Tamil Studies
and the Center for South Asia Studies
University of California, Berkeley

Saturday, April 5, 1997
Clark Kerr Auditorium
University of California, Berkeley
Tamil in America

Morning: 9 - 12
Students' Panel
"What it means to be a  Tamil-American Student"
Chairperson: Dr. V. J.  Mohan

Participants
Opening Speech by Brian Linebaugh
Pritika Balakrishnan,  Stanford University
Hemant Parasuram,  Stanford University
Vijaya Nagarajan, UC. Berkeley
Jeyanthi Siva, UC. Berkeley
Vidya Sundaram, Stanford University

Special Guests: Mr. and Mrs. Ram Tukkaram

Lunch break: 12 - 2

Professors' Panel   "Teaching Tamil"
Afternoon: 2 - 5
Chairperson: Prof. George Hart

Participants
Prof. Norman Cutler, University of Chicago
Prof. Thomas Malten, University of Koeln, Germany
Prof. Harold Schiffman, University of Pennsylvania
Prof. Jim Ryan, Institute of Integral Studies

Dinner break:  5 - 7

Entertainment Program
by  UC. Students 7.30 - 9.30 pm
Play : Adharshana  Thampadihal
Dance: Archana  & Priti
Music: Jyothi & Laksmi
Clark Kerr Auditorium


For more information, contact Prof. George L. Hart
(ghart at garnet.berkeley.edu)







From mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Wed Mar  5 05:02:15 1997
From: mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 10:02:15 +0500
Subject: Harappan script glyph: one-eyed person wrestling with and  dividing  two tigers
Message-ID: <161227028735.23782.5349638946121790426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An extraordinary glyph of the script is:
A one-eyed person wrestling with, trying to separate,
 two tigers standing on either side,and rearing on their hindlegs.

There are lexemes in Indian languages which encapsulate the semantics
of this glyph.

kANa = one eyed; kANeya = son of one-eyed woman (Skt and other languages.)
kaN = eye (Tamil)

kannai = side; party, as in games, wrestling, fighting; kannai-mARu = to 
change sides for a new game; kannai-ppiri = to divide a company into two
parties for a game (Jaffna Tamil)

kan = copper work; copper; workmanship (cf. kanmam = work; karmam = work)
kannuvar, kannAr = braziers, bell-metal workers; kannAn = brazier, bell-metal worker,
one of te divisions of the kammALa caste (Tamil) cf. khani = a mine (of jewels) (Skt.)

We have noticed elsewhere that the tiger is denoted by a lexeme: kaTaka.

So, the glyph can be interpreted to be a glyphic determinative of the morpheme, kan (sememe
metal) and the entire pictorial can be read as kan + kaTaka = copper (or bell-metal) bangle (maker)

Regards, Kalyanaraman.





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Mar  5 10:14:52 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 10:14:52 +0000
Subject: German Indology
Message-ID: <161227028740.23782.8348771262565387653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Boris Oguibenine wrote:

> My comment: I am very grateful to Prof. Schlingloff for the booklet German 
> Indologists which I found very useful. I confess that I have had no grim 
> thought while perusing it! Just for information: about three or four 
> years ago Russian Academy published two huge volumes on Orientalists in 
> Russia, much alike to Prof. Schlingloff's work. I do not know yet about any 
> adverse reaction towards this Russian publication.

Oh dear!  I'm afraid that Boris's note above shows that the traditional
remembrance of my original comments about the German Indologists booklet
has now drifted to a position which I would not which to be associated
with.  INDOLOGY as Chinese whispers!

If you have had enough of this issue, and me, just hit "del" now.

----

My original observation was 
1/ That the organizational principle of the booklet startled me;
2/ That the production of a booklet using the same criteria of inclusion
   for English and selected English-speaking scholars would probably not
   be thought appropriate or acceptable in modern Britain.

*Of course* any list of addresses, qua mere information, is useful!  And
the Russian list that Boris mentions sounds as though it is organized
according to the principle of Geography, which seems perfectly reasonable
and practical.  That is *not* the organizing principle of the German
Indologists booklet. 
   
All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de  Wed Mar  5 19:07:28 1997
From: ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Ditte Koenig)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 11:07:28 -0800
Subject: Blood
Message-ID: <161227028738.23782.3600140787399436424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anybody know of rock-carvings or similar rather crude drawings in 
India or elsewhere where spilt blood is represented by a `cloud? of dots 
around the killed person or animal? Danke! Ditte





From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu  Wed Mar  5 18:16:28 1997
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 13:16:28 -0500
Subject: Copyright
Message-ID: <161227028752.23782.18071026893038245593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Thanks to Geprg v Simon for pointing out an absurdity in my previous
post. I had written:

  The owner of a manuscript possesses only those rights the author would
  possess, if he/she is/were alive.

The point is that nowdays the duration of copyright is defined as
life of the author + n years (except for works `made for hire'?)
So the last part should be changed ``to if he/she is alive or
been dead for less than 50 (70 in Germany etc) years''.

-----------

Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu)		614-366-9341





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Wed Mar  5 21:26:38 1997
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 13:26:38 -0800
Subject: Query on var.nabheda
Message-ID: <161227028755.23782.9919438109908009964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Although my notes on manuscript collections do not contain any entry with
the title Var.na-bheda, I have a distinct recollection that I saw
manuscripts, usually not more than 4-5 pages, in which words that were
likely to be confused were collected and their distinction in var?as was
pointed out (usually distinctions of ;s, .s, sa etc.). I would not be
surprised if these mss were thought of as containing var.na-bheda works;
that is, var.na-bheda was a genre name.

My notes do contain references to a work called ;Sabda-prabheda, ascribed
to Mahe;svara and commented upon by J;naana-vimala-ga.nin. It may even have
already been printed. The mss I noticed exist at Ahmedabad: Devasaano
Paa.do Mo.to Bha.n.daara and at London, Oriental Collections of the British
Library, Bendall 396  (this one is with comm). The  ;Sabda-prabheda too, as
I recall, separates similar sounding words on the basis of their var.nas.

aklujkar







From rsalomon at u.washington.edu  Wed Mar  5 21:40:20 1997
From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 13:40:20 -0800
Subject: Query on var.nabheda
Message-ID: <161227028756.23782.5835068223770597469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A while back a colleague in Chinese linguistics asked me virtually the
same question.  While I don't remember the details, I did try,
unsuccessfully, to track
the text called varna-bheda-vidhi.   If I remember correctly, a single
manuscript of this
text is listed in Aufrecht's Catalogus Catalogorum, with reference to an
old, unpublished ms. catalogue of a collection in, I think, in Mysore.
There doesn't seem to be much chance of finding a copy or edition of what
seems to be an obscure and minor text.  But guessing from the title and
its resemblance to similar names of other texts, I would venture that it
is probably a late or modern about Sanskrit "spelling rules" with
reference to minor problems like varying sibilants (Z/s, etc.).  In
other words, the term
varna-bheda here probably meant 'differentiating between [similar or
frequently confused] sounds/letters', and as far as I know it does not
occur elsewhere in the grammatical tradition; certainly it is not a
standard term.  I doubt
very much that it would have had anything to do with "syllable dimidation"
or the like.  

Richard Salomon


 On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Wolfgang Behr wrote:

> An outsider's query to all the vyAkara.na-wallahs out there ----
> 
> One of the most important sources for the phonological
> reconstruction of Old and Middle Chinese are the so-called
> "_fan3qie4_-spellings", found fur each Chinese character
> in Middle Chinese rhyming dictionaries. The _fan3qie4_-tech-
> nique, first mentioned in a text from the mid-3rd century, but
> possibly dating back to the first century CE, splits up the target
> syllable to be "spelled" into onset and rhyme, which are then
> represented by seperate characters (=syllables) in the following
> fashion (T=lexical tone):
>         
>      C1-V2-C3+T ---> C1(-anyV-anyC)-(anyC-)V2-C3+T
> 
>         A syllable like wang2 "king" could thus be rewritten as by
> any of the disyllabic combinations of the type _w(oT)-(l)ang2_,
> _w(engT)-(k)ang2_, _w(aiT)-(f)ang2_ etc. Since the the medi-
> eval period, Chinese scholars have commonly associated this
> peculiar technique of "syllable dimidation"  with the introduction
> of Buddhism in China. It has been argued over and over in the
> literature that the emergence of _fan3qie2_ notations must have
> been triggered by the newly acquired knowledge about alpha-
> betical systems of writing employed in the Sanskrit or Central
> Asian sources underlying Chinese Buddhist translations. Leaving
> aside the considerable historical and philological problems surroun-
> ding this "contact induction"-hypothesis for a moment, it has often
> been noted that the term _fan3_ (lit. "to reverse, return")-_qie4_
> ("to split, cut, splice, cleave") has no convincing etymology in Chi-
> nese, i.e. "turning-and-cutting[-spelling]" ,"reverse cutting[-spelling]"
> etc., commonly found as glosses in standard dictionaries, don not
> seem particularly convincing. Moreover, the first syllable of the
> compound is sometimes written with a Middle Chinese near-hom-
> onym of _fan3_ (pronounced _fan1_ today) meaning "to overturn,
> upset, come back; flutter" etc., which would seem to point into the
> direction of a loan interpretation for the enigmatic technical term. 
>         Building upon these (and other) observations, Victor Mair
> (UPenn) has recently advanced a new explanation for the com-
> pound in an unfortunately little-known article entitled "A Hypothesis
> Concerning the Origin of the Term _fanqie_ ('Countertomy')"
> (_Sino-Platonic Papers_ 34, 1992, 1-4). Noting that derivations
> of the Sanskrit root v.r- "to cover" etc. are usually translated into
> Buddhist Hybrid Chinese by a synonym of _fan3_, he  suggests
> that _fan3_ (< Early Middle Chinese *puan', '=glottal stop) may
> in fact have been a phonetic *and* semantic represantation of
> Sanskrit var.na, and that the whole Chinese compound would have
> been a hybrid translation of Sanskrit var.nabheda- as encountered
> in var.nabheda-vidhi, a Sanskrit "method of spelling or letter di-
> vision" (cf. MW 924c). While this scenario would seem quite
> impeccable from the viewpoint of Chinese historical phonology,
> the backdraw to it is that Mair was neither able to find "any Sans-
> krit text (Buddhist or otherwise) in which the term _var.na-bheda_
> occurs and which has been translated into Chinese", nor has he
> been able to locate a copy of the treatise on spelling named
> *Var.na-bheda-vidhi* quoted in MW.
>         The question I would thus like to ask the most erudite
> members of this list is:
>         (a)  What is the exact meaning and usage of var.na-bheda
>                in Sanskrit grammatical literature (or Tibetan translations
>                thereof) and/or BHS literature?
>         (b)   Where does it occur and how can the occurences be
>                dated?
>         (c)   Is there anything like an edition of a work named
>                *Var.na-bheda-vidhi*, and if so which library holds it?
>         (d)   Have there been similar techiques of "syllable dimidation"
>                around in ancient India, and if so, how did they work?
> 
> Any pointers & comments will be highly appreciated. Thanks & cheers,
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
>         
> 
>         
> 
> 
>         
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wolfgang Behr <w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de>
> Sinologie, J.W. Goethe-Universitaet, Dantestr.4-6,
> P.O.B. 111 932, D-60054 Frankfurt/Main, Germany
> Tel.: (o) +49-69-798-22852, Fax: +49-69-798-22873
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 







From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Mar  5 13:38:03 1997
From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 14:38:03 +0100
Subject: Copyrights
Message-ID: <161227028741.23782.15470771454884816872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


comment on one statement only:
> Copyright emanates
>from the author, not from scribes. The owner of a manuscript possesses
>only those rights the author would possess, if he/she is/were alive.

Since copyright is meant to protect the author or - in more general terms -
anybody who has created something new, I cannot believe that the mere fact
that you own an ancient manuscript gives you the copyright for it. Of
course, you can grant or deny access to your manuscript, and access can be
linked to certain conditions which the recipient of the manuscript has to
agree upon. This is common practice. But such a - legally binding  -
agreement is quite different from the copyright which arises from creative
activity and should not be confounded with it.

        Best wishes
                                Georg v. Simson







From clopez at husc.harvard.edu  Wed Mar  5 20:44:34 1997
From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 15:44:34 -0500
Subject: Sibajiban Bhattacharya
Message-ID: <161227028754.23782.10938616083785341848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I am working on an Edition of Paippalada Samhita for my dissertation.  I
have a practical question: is anyone aware of any editing program with
automatic numbering of varients in the old copy-book style.  Meaning that
the variants of each mss are arranged under each individual head word?

Thanks for your help.

******************************************************************************
ye paakazaMsaM viharanta evair ye vaa bhadraM duuSayanti svadhabhiH
ahaye vaa taan pradadaatu soma aa vaa dadhaatu nirRter upasthe (RV 7.104.9)

Those who keep apart the man who praises sincerely or those who willingly 
cause the fortunate man to become corrupt 
let Soma place them before Ahi or place (them) in the lap of annihilation
******************************************************************************
Carlos Lopez
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies       Harvard University
******************************************************************************






From Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au  Wed Mar  5 05:48:06 1997
From: Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au (Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 16:48:06 +1100
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028737.23782.7420584307284139801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indologists,

I have come across the following date mentioned in the colophon of a MS:

ripuvairisaptap.rthvii


I would have read that this as 1766 VS, but the catalogue for the MS says
1733 VS.  

Can anyone clarify the usage of "ripu" and "vairi" as anka?

Is there any reference book for these usages?

Merci d'avance,
Adrian

_______________________________________________________________
Adrian Burton                      South and West Asia Centre
Adrian Burton at anu.edu.au   Faculty of Asian Studies
+61-6-279 8241                   Australian National University






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Mar  5 16:50:14 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 16:50:14 +0000
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028743.23782.7903480938948637008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I use L'Inde Classique' list of bhutasankhyas quite often (vol.2, p.708f,
but no light on ripu or vairi), and there's a more comprehesive one in the
edition of Mahavira's _Ganitasarasangraha_ ed. M. Rangacarya (Madras,
1912); my copy is at home I'm afraid, so I can't check now. 

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Wed Mar  5 22:28:08 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 17:28:08 -0500
Subject: Query on var.nabheda
Message-ID: <161227028758.23782.11298233012278241119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>it has often
>been noted that the term _fan3_ (lit. "to reverse, return")-_qie4_
>("to split, cut, splice, cleave") has no convincing etymology in Chi-
>nese, i.e. "turning-and-cutting[-spelling]" ,"reverse cutting[-spelling]"
>etc., commonly found as glosses in standard dictionaries, don not
>seem particularly convincing.

I'm less than convinced that there is no convincing gloss for the Chinese
term. Fan3 does not simply mean reverse/return, but, especially in older
Chinese literature, suggests opposing ends, or the terminal extremes of a
pendulum's swing. Qie, as suggested, means to splice together. So fanqie
quite reasonably translates as splicing together the two extreme ends,
i.e., the first part of the first syllable and the last part of the ending
syllable (of the two words), which is precisely how fanqie works.

Victor Mair's imaginative search for nonChinese precedents for Chinese
terms and works (e.g., the Laozi derives from the Bhagavad Gita) are always
amusing and erudite, but frequently need to be taken with a grain of salt
and a chuckle.

Dan Lusthaus
Florida State University







From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk  Wed Mar  5 18:22:27 1997
From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (L.S. Cousins)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 18:22:27 +0000
Subject: address of Karl Potter
Message-ID: <161227028767.23782.8009195911938047752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does any one have a current email address for Karl Potter (University of
Washington) ?

I have tried:
kpotter at uwashington.edu

but the message bounced.

With thanks,

Lance Cousins

MANCHESTER, UK
Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk







From w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de  Wed Mar  5 17:59:34 1997
From: w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Wolfgang Behr)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 18:59:34 +0100
Subject: Query on var.nabheda
Message-ID: <161227028751.23782.12870523449730423325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An outsider's query to all the vyAkara.na-wallahs out there ----

One of the most important sources for the phonological
reconstruction of Old and Middle Chinese are the so-called
"_fan3qie4_-spellings", found fur each Chinese character
in Middle Chinese rhyming dictionaries. The _fan3qie4_-tech-
nique, first mentioned in a text from the mid-3rd century, but
possibly dating back to the first century CE, splits up the target
syllable to be "spelled" into onset and rhyme, which are then
represented by seperate characters (=syllables) in the following
fashion (T=lexical tone):
        
     C1-V2-C3+T ---> C1(-anyV-anyC)-(anyC-)V2-C3+T

        A syllable like wang2 "king" could thus be rewritten as by
any of the disyllabic combinations of the type _w(oT)-(l)ang2_,
_w(engT)-(k)ang2_, _w(aiT)-(f)ang2_ etc. Since the the medi-
eval period, Chinese scholars have commonly associated this
peculiar technique of "syllable dimidation"  with the introduction
of Buddhism in China. It has been argued over and over in the
literature that the emergence of _fan3qie2_ notations must have
been triggered by the newly acquired knowledge about alpha-
betical systems of writing employed in the Sanskrit or Central
Asian sources underlying Chinese Buddhist translations. Leaving
aside the considerable historical and philological problems surroun-
ding this "contact induction"-hypothesis for a moment, it has often
been noted that the term _fan3_ (lit. "to reverse, return")-_qie4_
("to split, cut, splice, cleave") has no convincing etymology in Chi-
nese, i.e. "turning-and-cutting[-spelling]" ,"reverse cutting[-spelling]"
etc., commonly found as glosses in standard dictionaries, don not
seem particularly convincing. Moreover, the first syllable of the
compound is sometimes written with a Middle Chinese near-hom-
onym of _fan3_ (pronounced _fan1_ today) meaning "to overturn,
upset, come back; flutter" etc., which would seem to point into the
direction of a loan interpretation for the enigmatic technical term. 
        Building upon these (and other) observations, Victor Mair
(UPenn) has recently advanced a new explanation for the com-
pound in an unfortunately little-known article entitled "A Hypothesis
Concerning the Origin of the Term _fanqie_ ('Countertomy')"
(_Sino-Platonic Papers_ 34, 1992, 1-4). Noting that derivations
of the Sanskrit root v.r- "to cover" etc. are usually translated into
Buddhist Hybrid Chinese by a synonym of _fan3_, he  suggests
that _fan3_ (< Early Middle Chinese *puan', '=glottal stop) may
in fact have been a phonetic *and* semantic represantation of
Sanskrit var.na, and that the whole Chinese compound would have
been a hybrid translation of Sanskrit var.nabheda- as encountered
in var.nabheda-vidhi, a Sanskrit "method of spelling or letter di-
vision" (cf. MW 924c). While this scenario would seem quite
impeccable from the viewpoint of Chinese historical phonology,
the backdraw to it is that Mair was neither able to find "any Sans-
krit text (Buddhist or otherwise) in which the term _var.na-bheda_
occurs and which has been translated into Chinese", nor has he
been able to locate a copy of the treatise on spelling named
*Var.na-bheda-vidhi* quoted in MW.
        The question I would thus like to ask the most erudite
members of this list is:
        (a)  What is the exact meaning and usage of var.na-bheda
               in Sanskrit grammatical literature (or Tibetan translations
               thereof) and/or BHS literature?
        (b)   Where does it occur and how can the occurences be
               dated?
        (c)   Is there anything like an edition of a work named
               *Var.na-bheda-vidhi*, and if so which library holds it?
        (d)   Have there been similar techiques of "syllable dimidation"
               around in ancient India, and if so, how did they work?

Any pointers & comments will be highly appreciated. Thanks & cheers,
Wolfgang



        

        


        

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolfgang Behr <w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de>
Sinologie, J.W. Goethe-Universitaet, Dantestr.4-6,
P.O.B. 111 932, D-60054 Frankfurt/Main, Germany
Tel.: (o) +49-69-798-22852, Fax: +49-69-798-22873
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From tat at quel.stu.neva.ru  Thu Mar  6 03:06:33 1997
From: tat at quel.stu.neva.ru (tat at quel.stu.neva.ru)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 19:06:33 -0800
Subject: Sibajiban Bhattacharya
Message-ID: <161227028746.23782.12727068202541669308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It's necessary for me to contact to MM. Sibajiban Bhattacharya but I don't know how to
reach him. Does anybody know his e-mail address? 
   
    Thanks in advance,

                                     Tattvarthi 

   tat at quel.stu.neva.ru





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Mar  6 01:42:50 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 20:42:50 -0500
Subject: Question on the etymology of a Vedic word
Message-ID: <161227028759.23782.11661484342063460923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to Comparative Dictionary of Indo-aryan Languages, the Sanskrit
word 'naavayati' meaning 'makes shout' is used by grammarians. It is related
to the Rig Vedic word 'na'vatee' meaning 'shouts, bellows'. The root is
supposed to be 'nu' meaning 'shout'.

Is this a widely accepted etymology among Sanskrit scolars? 

Dravidian Etymological Dictionary Revised edition has the following entry,
DEDR 3616.

Tamil. 'navil' ('navilv-', 'navinR'-) to say, tell, learn, utter, sound
loudly, sing, perform (as a dance); 'naviRRu' ('naviRRi-') to say, utter,
declare with authority; nuval ('nuvalv-', 'nuvanR-') to say, declare, utter;
n. word, saying; 'nuvaRci', saying, utterance. ? Toda. 'nOw' voice, song. DED
2993.

In Classical Tamil poems, one of the meanings of 'nuval' is the the sounding
of drums announcing the onset of battle.

Is this an accidental similarity or the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian words are
etymologically related? Any help from Indologists? Thanks.

S. Palaniappan











From mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Wed Mar  5 17:10:26 1997
From: mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 22:10:26 +0500
Subject: Harappan glyphs: 1)Head of a bull with one horn ligatured with  an    octopus (five-tentacled); 2)dotted circles on device in front of  the      bull
Message-ID: <161227028749.23782.8645409780027806177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The semantics of two glyphs may be presented as follows, using Indian language
 lexemes. The methodology is simple: each imagery evoked by the glyphs
of the script is linked to a group of lexemes (which have imagery meanings
and also other substantive meanings, exemplifying the rebus principle of
evolving a writing system).

1) A Mohenjodaro seal with inscriptions on two sides has a glyph:
head of a bull with onecurved horn is ligatured with an octopus (five-tentacled).

In Jatki language, vehRa = octopus.

Horn = kO (Tamil), kOZh, kODu (Kannada), koTi = curved end (Skt.)
Bull = kO (Tamil), gO (Skt.)

Potter = kO-vEL (Tamil), kOva (Kannada), vET-kO (Tamil)
Eminent person = kO (Tamil), gO-mAn (masc. nom. sg. of gO-mat) (Skt.)

2) The glyph of 'dotted circle' is extraordinary and appears in apparently
special contexts on a number of inscriptions and artefacts:

Three dotted circles adorn a pedestal; they also adorn the robe of the
so-called 'priest-king' statuette; a seal showing a fabulous animal (deer?) with dotted
circles on its body and the tusk of a boar; dotted circles are also affixed on the lower
pot of the device in front of the bull; the device, in some glyphic representations, looks
like a gimlet with wavy lines apparently depicting circular, shaky motion of the 
sharp drill-bit to make a perforation (on a bead).

vEtai = drilling, boring (Tamil);
vedhanikA = a sharp-pointed perforating instrument (esp. for piercing jewels or shells),
auger, awl, gimlet (Skt.); vedhita = shaken, trembling (Skt. cf. wavy lines)

A piercer, perforator (of gems)= vedhaka (Skt.); one who transmutes or changes the
nature of things = vetakan (Tamil); cf. bhedaka (Skt.)
Platform, stool, pedestal, place of worship = vEdikA (Skt.) vEtikai (Tamil)

Enam is an enumerative particle added to h (represented with three circles)(Tamil); cf
zrENi = series (Skt.)
EN = an edge, a border, a point (Kannada); 
ENa = a deer with short legs (Skt.Kannada) Enam = wild hog (Old Tamil.)

The compound vEtan = Brahma, god, Brhaspati (Tamil); vedhas = pious, religious, 
virtuous(Skt.) 

EnAti = general, warrior (Tamil); cf. senAdi (Skt.)

The three dotted circles seem to be phonetic determinatives of -na ending; hence,
the semantics of the glyph should perhaps be related to vedana = property, goods; 
act of finding wealth, riches (Skt.); 

The ligatured semantics can be explained as vedhana zrENi = group involved in 
worship or producing riches.[It is significant that the lexeme vETai = street where
merchants live (Tamil). cf. veza (Skt.); vETai, vEL  = desire, sacrifice (Tamil); cf.
vedi = the fire altar (Skt.)]

Regards, kalyanaraman.







From apandey at u.washington.edu  Thu Mar  6 07:58:47 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 23:58:47 -0800
Subject: address of Karl Potter
Message-ID: <161227028769.23782.15223948165081280095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


> Does any one have a current email address for Karl Potter (University of
> Washington) ?
> 
> I have tried:
> kpotter at uwashington.edu
> 
> but the message bounced.

The address should be: kpotter at u.washington.edu

You forgot to add the period after "u".

Good luck.

Anshuman Pandey
University of Washington
apandey at u.washington.edu







From srini at engin.umich.edu  Thu Mar  6 05:10:24 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 00:10:24 -0500
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028766.23782.4972533235021328144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	ripuvairisaptap.rthvii

	I would have read that this as 1766 VS, but the catalogue for 
	the MS says 1733 VS.  Can anyone clarify the usage of "ripu" 
	and "vairi" as anka?

ripu = vairi = 6 seems the right interpretation... but could the
3 be due to the Adibhautika-Adidaivika-AdhyAtmika categories of 
troubles ?

-Srini.





From conlon at u.washington.edu  Thu Mar  6 08:28:24 1997
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 00:28:24 -0800
Subject: address of Karl Potter
Message-ID: <161227028771.23782.13841285524309388937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lance--you didn't quite get the address right.   It is:
Karl Potter <kpotter at u.washington.edu>
(that is u.washington.edu not uwashington.edu)

Frank

Frank F. Conlon
Professor of History
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
Co-editor of H-ASIA
<conlon at u.washington.edu>


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, L.S. Cousins wrote:

> Does any one have a current email address for Karl Potter (University of
> Washington) ?
> 
> I have tried:
> kpotter at uwashington.edu
> 
> but the message bounced.
> 
> With thanks,
> 
> Lance Cousins
> 
> MANCHESTER, UK
> Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 






From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Thu Mar  6 03:24:32 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 08:24:32 +0500
Subject: Harappan glyph: person seated on a machan on a tree; a tiger  below  turning its neck looking up at the person
Message-ID: <161227028761.23782.15738358250564659325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The vivid glyphic representation relates to: 1) tiger with its neck turned back; 2)a peeping tom.
The rebus lexemes for imagery and for substantive semantics are as follows, in Indian languages:

heraka = spy (Skt.); her- to look at (Pkt.for many verbs in Indian languages); er uk- = to play
'peeping tom' (Kota); Erka spying (Kui)

eraka, eRaka = fused, molten (moulded) metal (Kannada); urku = amulet (Tulu); urukku = anything
melted, product of liquefaction (Tamil) eruvai = copper (Tamil); ere = dark red (Kannada)

keDiak = tiger (Kolami)

kaDaka, kaTaka = bangle, bracelet (Kannada)

ceTTu = tree (Tamil)

seTTha, zrEShTa = merchant (Kannada, Skt.)

The glyph seems to denote a merchant of fused, moulded copper bracelet.

Would deeply appreciate receiving critical comments. Regards,
Kalyanaraman (mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in)





From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU  Thu Mar  6 15:06:06 1997
From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 09:06:06 -0600
Subject: Harvard scheme for transcription
Message-ID: <161227028777.23782.10303213024158462602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi:
I would appreciate very much if some body could show me the Harvard scheme for
transcribing Sanskrit? Thanks in advance,-Narahari Achar





From pfilliozat at magic.fr  Thu Mar  6 08:38:07 1997
From: pfilliozat at magic.fr (pfilliozat at magic.fr)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 09:38:07 +0100
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028772.23782.61800345617592035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Indologists,
>
>I have come across the following date mentioned in the colophon of a MS:
>
>ripuvairisaptap.rthvii
>
>
>I would have read that this as 1766 VS, but the catalogue for the MS says
>1733 VS.
>
>Can anyone clarify the usage of "ripu" and "vairi" as anka?
>
>Is there any reference book for these usages?
>
>Merci d'avance,
>Adrian
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Adrian Burton                      South and West Asia Centre
>Adrian Burton at anu.edu.au   Faculty of Asian Studies
>+61-6-279 8241                   Australian National University

There is a consecrated list of six moral enemies of man.That is probably
the source of interpreting ripu and synonyms as referring to "6". The list
is found in the following subhaa.sita
kaama.h krodha"s ca lobha"s ca maano har.so madas tathaa /
ete hi .sa.d vijetavyaa nitya.m sva.m deham aa"sritaa.h //
For references see Sternbach, Mahaasubhaa.sitasa.mgraha.
With regards,
P.-.S. Filliozat







From cssetzer at mum.edu  Thu Mar  6 16:52:13 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 10:52:13 -0600
Subject: Indian Express Publications
Message-ID: <161227028780.23782.15612557869711623175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The correct address is:

express.indiaworld.co.in

Most Indian sites end in "in"

Claude Setzer

----------
> From: Lars Martin Fosse <l.m.fosse at internet.no>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Indian Express Publications
> Date: Thursday, March 06, 1997 6:42 AM
> 
> Dear Netters,
> 
> I have tried to reach the WWW site of Indian Express Publications using
the
> WWW address given below, but to no avail.
> 
> http://express.indiaworld.com/
> 
> Would any of you happen to have an updated WWW adresse?
> 
> Thanx!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> 
> 





From gjh8 at columbia.edu  Thu Mar  6 16:08:02 1997
From: gjh8 at columbia.edu (Gary J Hausman)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 11:08:02 -0500
Subject: Indian Express Publications
Message-ID: <161227028778.23782.14509239292234762780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://express.indiaworld.co.in/

		Gary Hausman
		Columbia University

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Dear Netters,
> 
> I have tried to reach the WWW site of Indian Express Publications using the
> WWW address given below, but to no avail.
> 
> http://express.indiaworld.com/
> 
> Would any of you happen to have an updated WWW adresse?
> 
> Thanx!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> 
> 
> 
> 






From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu  Thu Mar  6 21:15:20 1997
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 11:15:20 -1000
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028787.23782.1335592974266560524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



My two paise, based on my limited
knowledge of the Korean language...

I don't even know if this is relevant,
but "varna" reminds me that in Korean,
some vowels ("aw" and "u") are classified
as "dark", whereas other vowels ("a"
and "o") are classified as "light".

Then, a rule of light/light and dark/dark
harmony is used to determine which vowel
can follow which, e.g. when conjugating a verb.

E.g., the root verb "bo" ("to see"), ending in
the "light vowel" "o", must be combined with "a" 
(a light vowel) to conjugate it, i.e., it
becomes "bo" + "a" (= bwa, "see").  But the
root verb "ju" ("to give"), ending in the
"dark vowel" "u", must be combined with "aw"
(a dark vowel), i.e., it becomes "ju" + "aw"
(= jaw, "give").

Please excuse the simplified discussion above,
but that's the general idea.  So much for "varna".
-------------------------------------------------------

Interestingly, Korean is the only East-Asian
language that has a phonetic alphabet.  At
least one book that I've read about the subject
claims that its inventors (in the 15th century)
were familiar with Indian scripts (and their
implicit phonological theories).

Of course, Korean is unrelated to Chinese.
But you know how it is... all of us orientals
look the same... so I thought I'd mention it.


Another remarkable fact about Korean... in some
elusive way, it is very similar to my mother tongue,
Tamil.  In most cases, I can plug in Tamil words 
into a Korean sentence and get a perfect Tamil 
sentence (and vice versa).  Even some of the
complex sentence forms are closely parallel, e.g.,
the general sentence form to say "do X for me".
E.g., to say "teach me" in Tamil, you would say "solli
tha" (literally, "teach and give").  Same thing in
Korean: "garuchyo juseyo" ("teach and give").
This general pattern works for many sentences.

Now that I think about it, the same pattern 
can be applied in modern Indian non-Dravidian languages
like Hindi ("teach me" = "sikha de", i.e., teach and give).
But you can also say it without the "give", i.e.,
just "sikhao".  But in Tamil you MUST say "solli tha",
i.e., teach and give.  In Indo-European languages
from Europe, e.g., English or German, you don't add
the "give".  Nor in Sanskrit (?)

Anyway, learning Korean has left me with a new
appreciation of:  1) how much there is in COMMON between
Indo-European languages from India and Europe
(the basic mental logic);  1) how much there
is in COMMON between MODERN Indian Indo-European
and Dravidian languages, e.g., Tamil and Hindi;
3) how little there is in common between, say,
English and Korean (no surprise!); and most surprisingly,
4) how much there is in COMMON between Korean and Tamil.

Despite the surprising similarity of "flavour", however, 
I've only found about 15 words that sound similar
in Tamil and Korean.

Just having fun... just an amateur, don't roast me,


Xie xie,
Annyonghikeseyo,
vanakkam,


Narayan Sriranga Raja.







From thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp  Thu Mar  6 02:47:04 1997
From: thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 11:47:04 +0900
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028762.23782.12001897914741162377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At  7:15 PM 97.3.5 +0000, Richard Salomon wrote:
>Lists of words used in chronograms are given in:
>        
>        1. P. V. Kane, History of Dharmasastra V, pt.1, pp. 701-3.
>
>        2. G. Bu:hler, Indian Paleography..., 84-6.
>
>        3. D. C. Sircar, Indian Epigraphy, pp. 230-3.

To this list the following may be added:

        4.  B. Datta and A. N. Singh, History of Hindu Mathematics, Part 1,
pp. 54--57,

which lists 'ari' for 6 (not for 3).  Mahaaviira's GaNitasaarasaMgraha
(SaMjJaadhikaara 53--62) mentioned by Dominik has also a long list of word
numerals (bhuutasaMkhyaas), but unfortunately it does not contain ripu or
its synonyms.

All the best,
Takao






From thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp  Thu Mar  6 02:49:55 1997
From: thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 11:49:55 +0900
Subject: Geometry and numerals
Message-ID: <161227028764.23782.2851826118413294514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ulrike,

At  9:40 PM 97.2.26 +0000, you wrote:
>a friend of mine is searching for bibliographical data on publications 
>(if possible in English or German translations) about "Geometry"  and 
>"Mysticism of Numerals".

For the former topic, your friend may consult:

1.  B. Datta, _ The Science of the Sulba _.  University of Calcutta Press 1932.

2.  Axel Michaels, _ Beweisverfahrern in der vedischen Sakralgeometrie _,
Steiner 1978.  [Accompanied by a useful  bibliography.]

3.  A. Seidenberg, 'The Geometry of the Vedic Rituals,' in: F. Staal (ed),
_ Agni: The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar _ , Asian Humanities Press 1983,
vol. 2, pp. 95--126.

4.  S. N. Sen and A. K. Bag, _ The Zulbasuutras _. Indian national Science
Academy 1983.

5.  T. A. Sarasvati, _ Geometry in Ancient and Medieval India _, Motilal 1979. 

6.   B. Datta and A. N. Singh, 'Hindu Geometry,' (revised by K. S. Shukla),
_ Indian Journal of History of Science _ 15, 1980, 121--188.

The first four books/article on this list treat the zulbasuutras, the
oldest phase of Indian geometry.  Item 4 contains Skt. texts of the four
major zulbasuutras and their English translations.  The last two items
cover the whole hisotry of Indian geometry.  Especially recommendable as a
comprehensive history is item 5.  For a more comprehensive bibliography in
jyotiHzaastra including mathematics, see:

D. Pingree, _ Census of the Exact Sceinces in Sanskrit _.   Vols. 1--5 (in
progress, so far up to 'v' in Skt. alphabetical order).  American
Philosophical Society 1970--94.

>Moreover, are there any texts in "lyrical" form about these topics?

Most texts of Indian mathematics and astronomy including geometry, except
zulbasuutras, are written in "lyrical" form.
All the best,
Takao






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Thu Mar  6 12:00:27 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 13:00:27 +0100
Subject: Indian Express Publications
Message-ID: <161227028774.23782.627680224420726067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Netters,

I have tried to reach the WWW site of Indian Express Publications using the
WWW address given below, but to no avail.

http://express.indiaworld.com/

Would any of you happen to have an updated WWW adresse?

Thanx!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse






From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu  Thu Mar  6 23:02:41 1997
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 13:02:41 -1000
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028792.23782.1124880131277521903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Dan Lusthaus wrote:

> >Interestingly, Korean is the only East-Asian
> >language that has a phonetic alphabet.  At
> >least one book that I've read about the subject
> >claims that its inventors (in the 15th century)
> >were familiar with Indian scripts (and their
> >implicit phonological theories).
 
> Japanese has not only one, but two alphabetic scripts as well as a third

As I understand, these are not complete 
and purely phonetic alphabets...  Or am 
I mistaken?


> script of Chinese characters. The Korean alphabet is very sophisticated,
> and predates the Japanese script. It is often ascribed to an emperor of the
> Silla Dynasty (661-935). The Koreans taught the Japanese to write

It is ascribed to emperor Sejong of the
Yi (Choson) dynasty (15th. century).  It
seems to have been a very deliberate,
well-documented process, so the details
are known.  The Koreans even have a "Hangul
day" (i.e., "Alphabet Day") in its honour.


Best wishes,


Raja.







From u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE  Thu Mar  6 14:18:47 1997
From: u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 15:18:47 +0100
Subject: QUERY: BHIMA
Message-ID: <161227028775.23782.18189166636317065201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello to everybody

it seems that in the javanese Mahabharata, there is a story about Bhima 
searching for his own self; during the search, he goes to the ground of 
the ocean, where he finds himself - only in a reduced (smaller) form of his 
"normal" self.

Does anybody know, whether this story also occurs in the Sanskrit (or any 
other Indian) Mahabharata - and if so -- where?

Thanks.  ULRIKE





From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu  Fri Mar  7 02:00:04 1997
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 16:00:04 -1000
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028802.23782.2532836481375943138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Dan Lusthaus wrote:

> >As I understand, these are not complete
> >and purely phonetic alphabets...  Or am
> >I mistaken?
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by complete. They have nearly fifty letters a
> piece. They are consonant+vowel combos, (e.g.: na, ni, no, though there are
> long vowels that can be added). They are purely alphabetic and have no
> semantic significance  beyond their use in constructing phonemes.


Well, what I meant by "not complete" was
that, to the best of my knowledge,
the Japanese language is not completely
represented in writing using a phonetic 
alphabet.  

When learning Japanese, right from the
beginning you also have to learn kanji.
If you look at Japanese signboards, they
are a mix of phonetic as well as kanji
characters.  To be functional, you need
at least a couple of thousand characters.

On the other hand, you can learn Korean 
(enough to be completely functional) by 
just learning approximately 30 characters.
Kids books are written completely in
Hangul.  Public signboards are almost
entirely in Hangul.  Chinese characters
are the exception.


By the way, I'd like to make it clear
that I'm not anti-Japanese (the idea is
absurd)!  The above is simply the 
objective situation, as far as I know.

Is this still relevant to Indology?

All the best,


Raja.







From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Thu Mar  6 21:34:49 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 17:34:49 -0400
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028789.23782.6973065875093365633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Interestingly, Korean is the only East-Asian
>language that has a phonetic alphabet.  At
>least one book that I've read about the subject
>claims that its inventors (in the 15th century)
>were familiar with Indian scripts (and their
>implicit phonological theories).

Japanese has not only one, but two alphabetic scripts as well as a third
script of Chinese characters. The Korean alphabet is very sophisticated,
and predates the Japanese script. It is often ascribed to an emperor of the
Silla Dynasty (661-935). The Koreans taught the Japanese to write
(originally with Chinese characters). Japanese men wrote using Chinese
characters, women wrote using the alphabet (called hiragana), until men
discovered how useful it was, and then adopted it for themselves as well.
The third Japanese alphabetic system is katakana, which still today is
primarily used exclusively for transliterating foreign words. Katakana was
invented/introduced by Kukai (774-835), to faciliate proper pronunciation
of dhaaranii (he also introduced tantra to Japan).

Dan Lusthaus
Flordia State University







From chattrj at is3.nyu.edu  Thu Mar  6 23:01:28 1997
From: chattrj at is3.nyu.edu (chattrj at is3.nyu.edu)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 18:01:28 -0500
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028791.23782.1057013332923554089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lay person's question:

I read while doing some research (on an entirely different subject that I
won't go into at this time) at the NYPL's Oriental Division that Mundari,
the central Indian aboroginal/aadivaasi laguage has some connections with
Magyar and Korean, and that Magyar and Korean are related in some ways. Is
there any truth in this?

Just curious.

:Sudipto Chatterjee
New York University
Dept. of Performance Studies

_______________________________________________________

                          In the flood of your tears, where Rain
                          Tells stories of someone else's pain--
                          That's where on my own
                          I'll meet with you alone.
                                                      :Suman Chatterjee

                 I taught a peasant how to write the word 'plough', 
                             and he taught me how to drive it.
                      :Augusto Boal (Theatre of the Oppressed)
_______________________________________________________






From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Thu Mar  6 22:09:43 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 18:09:43 -0400
Subject: Encyc of Hinduism
Message-ID: <161227028794.23782.539826521570975863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I just received an announcement for an Encyclopedia of Hinduism, from
Vedams Books International, New Delhi. It apparently consists of 15 volumes
for $1100 minus 30% discount for libraries and academics (= $770). I am
wondering if anyone is familiar with it and its background. Recently an
encyclopedia of Buddhism appeared from India with pirated and often
uncredited articles, many long outdated, which the surviving authors knew
nothing about. Is this project more legitimate?

Perusing the description of contents, it seems primarily geared toward the
Vedas and related topics, and includes articles by well known scholars
living and dead: J. Gonda (almost seems like a third to half of the
articles are attributed to him), A. Coomaraswamy, U.M. Apte, etc.

The volumes are in alphabetic order, but in an odd fashion, namely by the
title of essays rather than main topics per se. E.g., the table of contents
for vol. VIII is (N.B. variant spellings of Rg Veda are as is in the
announcement):

Mathematics of space
Metempsychosis in the Samhita and Brahmanas of the Rgveda
The metrical distractions of the Rig-Vedic Vaata
Minor Brahmanas
The Mitanni documents and Rigvedic India
Moral philosophy
'Mother' in Vedic Literature
Myths in the Vedic context
Myth and Reality in the Rgveda with special reference to Indra-Vrtra myth
Nkasatras in the Rgveda
Names of the Yajurveda
The name of Veda
Nasalization of the final a in the Rgveda
Nirrti in the Rgveda
Niska-extraction
non-attractive Daksinas in Srauta Ritual
Non-violent tradition in Jainism
Occurrences of 'Drse Kam' and 'Drse' in the Rgveda
Old Marathi Avasvara and Vedic Avasvara
The origin of the concept of Matsyavatara
Origin and nature of Brahmanas
The original home of the Aryans
Origins of the upanisadic religion and philosophy in the Vedas
The orthoepic Diaskeuasis of the Rgveda and the date of Panini
Paippaladasamhita of the Atharvaveda

What a tyrannical alphabetic mishmash. It seems to contain some interesting
and maybe even useful entries, but I'd like to know its pedigree before
submitting a request to my library. Any help would be appreciated.


Dan Lusthaus
Flordia State University







From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Thu Mar  6 22:32:53 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 18:32:53 -0400
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028796.23782.10586382770999541088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>As I understand, these are not complete
>and purely phonetic alphabets...  Or am
>I mistaken?

I'm not sure what you mean by complete. They have nearly fifty letters a
piece. They are consonant+vowel combos, (e.g.: na, ni, no, though there are
long vowels that can be added). They are purely alphabetic and have no
semantic significance  beyond their use in constructing phonemes.

Dan Lusthaus
Flordia State University







From cssetzer at mum.edu  Fri Mar  7 01:30:54 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 19:30:54 -0600
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028800.23782.8946346118472746123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Japanese use as their main alphabet what might be called a
subset/superset of the Chinese script that the Japanese call Kanji. They
also use two phonetic alphabets, that I believe can represent any sound in
the language, but of course do not have anywhere near the capability of
written expression for the serious scholar. It is quite interesting that
the two alphabets are "racially" separated. One is use only for "Japanese"
words and the other is used for foreign based words.

When I was in Japan in about 1973 there was a very interesting process gong
on. At that time there was only a small handful of people in Japan that
could fully read even the newspaper because of the complexity of the Kanji
script. At that time the government was trying to pass a law that limited
newspapers to using only about 5,000 Kanji characters (out of what I
remember as being something like 20,000), so the most highly educated
people could then read the newspapers.

Claude Setzer

----------
> From: Dan Lusthaus <dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
> Date: Thursday, March 06, 1997 5:46 PM
> 
> >As I understand, these are not complete
> >and purely phonetic alphabets...  Or am
> >I mistaken?
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by complete. They have nearly fifty letters a
> piece. They are consonant+vowel combos, (e.g.: na, ni, no, though there
are
> long vowels that can be added). They are purely alphabetic and have no
> semantic significance  beyond their use in constructing phonemes.
> 
> Dan Lusthaus
> Flordia State University
> 
> 
> 





From w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de  Thu Mar  6 19:40:02 1997
From: w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Wolfgang Behr)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 20:40:02 +0100
Subject: Query on var.nabheda
Message-ID: <161227028782.23782.10071118783866593788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks indeed for all the valuable information on 
var.nabheda and related matters. (Looks like we
will have to discard professor Mair's theory.)
As some of you seem to be interested in the sinolo-
gical side of the problem, let me just briefly recommend
three recent papers on the topic, which include exten-
sive reviews of the earlier Chinese literature and various
interpretations of the term _fanqie_:

        | Wang Yiming (1990), "Fanqie shuo lue"
        | ["Brief remarks on _fanqie_"], Wenshi Zhishi
        | (6): 88-91

        | Zhu Jianing (1991), "Fojiao chuanru yu dengyuntu
        | de xingqi" ["The entrance of Buddhism (into China
        | and the emergence of rhyme-tables", in: Cai Ruilin,
        | Gong Pengcheng et al. eds., _Guoji foxue yanjiu nian-
        | kan_ [_Int'l. Yearbook of Buddhist Studies_]: 251-263,
        | Taibei

        | Hsu Wen (1995), "The first step toward phonological
        | analysis in Chinese: fanqie", Journal of Chinese
        | Linguistics 23 (1): 137-158

Best wishes, Wolfgang




----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolfgang Behr <w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de>
Sinologie, J.W. Goethe-Universitaet, Dantestr.4-6,
P.O.B. 111 932, D-60054 Frankfurt/Main, Germany
Tel.: (o) +49-69-798-22852, Fax: +49-69-798-22873
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Mar  6 20:50:23 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 20:50:23 +0000
Subject: A genetic study of N. Indian population
Message-ID: <161227028785.23782.17924013355529457623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



The weekly journal _New Scientist_, 8 March 1997 (no. 2072), page 9,
contains an article from which the following is excerpted:

India looks farther east for its ancestors.
============================================

The physical appearance of the people of northern India has led historians
to assume they are more closely related to the European Caucasoid
populations that to their neighbours to the east.  But an international
group of geneticist claims that this view is wrong.

Some of the northern Indians, say the researchers, have much more in common
with Chinese and Japanese people than was previously thought.  The results
could change the way that historians view human migration into the Indian
subcontinent.

[...] "India is really a transition zone between the Caucasoids and
Mongoloids," says Narinder Mehra, director of the department of
histocompatability and immunogenetics at the All-India Institute of Medical
Sciences in New Delhi. Mehra belongs to an international team studying the
genetics of histocompatibility in populations worldwide.

[...] The scientists concentrated on the human leucocyte antigens (HLA)
which dictate whether a person undergoing a transplant will accept or reject
a donated organ or tissue.

[...] of the 17 subtypes of a gene [...] 44 per cent of a group of 46 people
living in Delhi had the same subtype as 69 per cent of a group of northern
Chinese.  And the subtype most commonly found in European populations was
totally absent.  

[Mehra's sample consisted of] Hindus with family roots in the north Indian
states of Haryana, Punjab and Uttar Pradesh.







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Thu Mar  6 20:27:02 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 21:27:02 +0100
Subject: Cultural Challenges
Message-ID: <161227028784.23782.16710725227267346088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Netters,

a group of people here (including me) are trying to prepare a seminar on the
problems related with cultural contact between Westerners and South Asians.
We are thinking in terms of cultural challenges seen from the point of view
of both sides. Westerners and South Asians deal with each other in a number
of contexts - business, politics etc. Could any of you refer me to
persons/institutions/literature that deal with this kind of problems?

Thanks in advance!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse






From cssetzer at mum.edu  Fri Mar  7 03:30:04 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 21:30:04 -0600
Subject: Bangalore conference news
Message-ID: <161227028809.23782.8979825218574474987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For news of the Bangalore conference, check out:

www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19970112/01250753.html

accesses from:
express.indiaworld.co.in  then click on Indian Express then click on news,
then Indian Express, then achieves, then select January 12 and search
Indian Express for Sanskrit. Be careful, it tends to repeatedly switch you
over to India Financial express.

Claude Setzer






From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Fri Mar  7 02:26:59 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 22:26:59 -0400
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028808.23782.14560180635393492414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Well, what I meant by "not complete" was
>that, to the best of my knowledge,
>the Japanese language is not completely
>represented in writing using a phonetic
>alphabet.

Every Japanese sound could be represented by the alphabet, and Japanese are
becoming increasingly illiterate about the kanji (Chinese characters). They
are not retained out of necessity, but for other reasons. The situation in
Korea today is that the more literate adults have learned Chinese
characters as well as the alphabet, and the more literate the literature,
the more Chinese is included. The Japanese situation is getting to be like
that - most Japanese school children resent having to learn kanji, and grow
to adulthood not being very good at them.

You are right, we are getting off the track from Indology.

Dan Lusthaus
Flordia State University







From garzilli at shore.net  Fri Mar  7 03:32:52 1997
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 22:32:52 -0500
Subject: Harvard scheme for transcription
Message-ID: <161227028821.23782.15680473813745110525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Narahari Achar wrote:
> 
> Hi:
> I would appreciate very much if some body could show me the Harvard scheme for
> transcribing Sanskrit? Thanks in advance,-Narahari Achar

You can find it in the first issue of the International Journal of 
Tantric Studies (http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/).

-- 
Dr. Enrica Garzilli
Univ. of Perugia (ITALY)
Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india)
*************************************************************







From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Fri Mar  7 02:42:51 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 22:42:51 -0400
Subject: Encyc of Hinduism
Message-ID: <161227028811.23782.10735878404675426131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The book Encyclopaedia of Hinduism  is also by the same publishers [as]
>the Encyclopaedia of Buddhism ...
>Sunil Gupta

Thanks. That was what I suspected.

Dan Lusthaus
Flordia State University







From apandey at u.washington.edu  Fri Mar  7 09:46:28 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 01:46:28 -0800
Subject: A genetic study of N. Indian population
Message-ID: <161227028819.23782.9286768359627032068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Hello all,

Regarding the article on the genetic study of certain peoples of
North Indian provinces, It seems that this study may be the first of its
kind. This article got my attention because it was mentioned that these
studies were done on some inhabitants of Uttar Pradesh. Would anyone
happen to know whether certain specific groups, or castes, were tested, or
whether it was a random study of peoples of various caste, ethnic, etc.
background? Also would anyone know if the report for this study was
published?

I realize that the British did much in trying to assemble ethnographic
data of Her Majesty's subjects and had published these records in numerous
Census of India volumes. But nothing like this!

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey
University of Washington
apandey at u.washington.edu






From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Fri Mar  7 02:03:58 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 03:03:58 +0100
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028803.23782.1755038347036148806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Japanese has not only one, but two alphabetic scripts as well as a third
>script of Chinese characters.

As a matter of terminology, I think it is more standard to call
them syllabaries, not alphabets.

There may be arguments as to whether one should call Devanagari
an alphabet or a syllabary, but I think there is none for hiragana
and katakana: the 5 signs "ka ki ku ke ko" (say; and so on for the
rest of the basic signs) bearing absolutely no relation to one other.

>The Korean alphabet is very sophisticated,
>and predates the Japanese script. It is often ascribed to an emperor of the
>Silla Dynasty (661-935).

That is news to me. I thought Hangul was introduced by king Yi Sejong in 1443.
I wonder what the source of your information is.

Maybe what you're referring to is Idu? (But Idu seems to be a lot
*older* than what you say, and is not an alphabet, and certainly does
not have any Indic connection)








From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Fri Mar  7 01:06:53 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 06:06:53 +0500
Subject: Harappan glyph on a tablet: five svastikas, a drummer and a  tiger
Message-ID: <161227028797.23782.1660627361265191449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Harappan tablet has glyphs on two sides: on one side, five svastikas; on the other,
a drummer beating a drum on both sides and a tiger (followed by 3 signs including the jar with a rim, and bangles or overlapped ovals; these signs are repeated on both sides of the tablet)

Let us relate these glyphs to lexemes from Indian languages which may help in extracting the substantive semantics of the society:

karaDe = an oblong drum beaten on both sides, a double drum (Kannada); karaTa = a drum (Skt.); karaTikai = a kind of drum (Old Tamil)
garaDi = fencing school (Kannada); karuTi, karaTi (Tamil); karaNDa = a sword (Skt.) This is being cited because there is also a Kalibangan cylinder seal which depicts a number (3) of fencers linked with a ligatured human with a trident-like headdress and tiger)

kaRaTikai, kaRaNTikai, karaNTikai = component part of an ornament as of a bracelet or anklet (Tamil); karaNDaka = jewel box (Skt.); karaDage = a box in which the linga is worn (Kannada)[cf. also karaTu = a kind of pearl (Tamil)

Terms  noted elsewhere:
keDiak = tiger
kaDaka = bracelet; caravan
ayaNa = winter solstice festival
ayaNa = movement; ayn = five (svastikas= ayana)

Hypothesis: We are perhaps looking at a community (caravan, troop) invitation (apparently, because the message is conveyed through multiple (?) tablets) to or a community gathering in a winter solstice festival which includes the maNiha (jewellers) who are expected to bring or be adorned with bracelet encased in a jewel box. Were the soldiers being adorned or honored?
The key to test this hypothesis lies in one sign, the two long linear strokes which follows the sign depicting a pair of bracelets (kaTaka = a bracelet of gold or shell; a caravan (Skt.).

Regards, Kalyanaraman







From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Fri Mar  7 02:37:23 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 07:37:23 +0500
Subject: wives celebrating for husbands' longevity
Message-ID: <161227028805.23782.11734510183839136517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
A ceremial fast is observed by women when the sun passes from aquarius to pisces, praying
for the longevity of their husbands (the confluence of maaci and panguni  or maagha and phalguna months). This is the Tamil tradition. This is called kAraTai-y-aan-nOnbu. In Skt. karaTa connotes a royal dynasty.
Are there similar festivals observed in other parts of Indian subcontinent?
Regards, Kalyanaraman.






From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr  Fri Mar  7 07:00:34 1997
From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 08:00:34 +0100
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028814.23782.15388811113798553827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For the (group of) six ennemies see also arthazAstra

The third section (prakaraNa) of book 1 has the title : indriya-yamaH,
tatra ari-SaDvarga-tyAgaH (control over the senses, casting out the group
of Six Ennemies). The Six Ennemies (kAma, krodha, lobha, mAna, mada, harSa)
are enumerated in the first sUtra of the chapter. The two zloka concluding
the lesson (1.6.11-12) refer again to the group of six ennemies :

1.6.1	vidyA-vinaya-hetur indriya-jayaH
kAma-krodha-lobha-mAna-mada-harSa-tyAgAt kAryaH.
1.6.11	ete cAnye ca bahavaH zatru-SaDvargam AzritAH.
	sa-bandhu-rASTrA rAjAno vinezur a-jitendriyAH.. 
1.6.12	zatru-SaDvargam utsRjya jAmadagnyo jitendriyaH.
	ambarISaz ca nAbhAgo bubhujAte ciraM mahIm.. 
Best regards, J.F.






From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr  Fri Mar  7 07:16:32 1997
From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 08:16:32 +0100
Subject: wives celebrating for husbands' longevity
Message-ID: <161227028815.23782.3044385749772421123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:23 07/03/1997 GMT, you wrote:
>Hi,
>A ceremial fast is observed by women when the sun passes from aquarius to
pisces, praying
>for the longevity of their husbands (the confluence of maaci and panguni
or maagha and phalguna months). This is the Tamil tradition. This is called
kAraTai-y-aan-nOnbu. In Skt. karaTa connotes a royal dynasty.
>Are there similar festivals observed in other parts of Indian subcontinent?
>Regards, Kalyanaraman.
>
In Nepal, women fast for Tij (the third day of the bright fortnight of the
month bhadra). 
See, K.B. Bista, Tij ou la f?te des femmes, Objets et Mondes t.IX, fasc.1,
7-18 (in french)
Mary Hamilton, The Festivals of Nepal (116-120), chap.13 Tij Brata, The
Fasting Festival of Women Only. 
Regards, JF.
>





From ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in  Fri Mar  7 03:42:13 1997
From: ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 08:42:13 +0500
Subject: Encyc of Hinduism
Message-ID: <161227028806.23782.5001890552933975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The book Encyclopaedia of Hinduism  is also by the same publishers Anmol 
Publications,Ansari Road, Darya Ganj, N.Delhi-110002 who has earlier 
published the Encyclopaedia of Buddhism for which already a discussion 
have been held on the list.The editor of both theworks are same.Because 
of the material contained in the works,we have not included the same in 
our lists for publicity.
Sunil Gupta


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Dan Lusthaus wrote:

> I just received an announcement for an Encyclopedia of Hinduism, from
> Vedams Books International, New Delhi. It apparently consists of 15 volumes
> for $1100 minus 30% discount for libraries and academics (= $770). I am
> wondering if anyone is familiar with it and its background. Recently an
> encyclopedia of Buddhism appeared from India with pirated and often
> uncredited articles, many long outdated, which the surviving authors knew
> nothing about. Is this project more legitimate?
> 
> Perusing the description of contents, it seems primarily geared toward the
> Vedas and related topics, and includes articles by well known scholars
> living and dead: J. Gonda (almost seems like a third to half of the
> articles are attributed to him), A. Coomaraswamy, U.M. Apte, etc.
> 
> The volumes are in alphabetic order, but in an odd fashion, namely by the
> title of essays rather than main topics per se. E.g., the table of contents
> for vol. VIII is (N.B. variant spellings of Rg Veda are as is in the
> announcement):
> 
> Mathematics of space
> Metempsychosis in the Samhita and Brahmanas of the Rgveda
> The metrical distractions of the Rig-Vedic Vaata
> Minor Brahmanas
> The Mitanni documents and Rigvedic India
> Moral philosophy
> 'Mother' in Vedic Literature
> Myths in the Vedic context
> Myth and Reality in the Rgveda with special reference to Indra-Vrtra myth
> Nkasatras in the Rgveda
> Names of the Yajurveda
> The name of Veda
> Nasalization of the final a in the Rgveda
> Nirrti in the Rgveda
> Niska-extraction
> non-attractive Daksinas in Srauta Ritual
> Non-violent tradition in Jainism
> Occurrences of 'Drse Kam' and 'Drse' in the Rgveda
> Old Marathi Avasvara and Vedic Avasvara
> The origin of the concept of Matsyavatara
> Origin and nature of Brahmanas
> The original home of the Aryans
> Origins of the upanisadic religion and philosophy in the Vedas
> The orthoepic Diaskeuasis of the Rgveda and the date of Panini
> Paippaladasamhita of the Atharvaveda
> 
> What a tyrannical alphabetic mishmash. It seems to contain some interesting
> and maybe even useful entries, but I'd like to know its pedigree before
> submitting a request to my library. Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> Dan Lusthaus
> Flordia State University
> 
> 
> 
> 





From sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de  Fri Mar  7 09:18:36 1997
From: sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de (Sreenivasa S. S. Nittala)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 09:18:36 +0000
Subject: wives celebrating for husbands' longevity
Message-ID: <161227028812.23782.815442647355833034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dr. Kalyanaraman wrote :
>Hi,
>A ceremial fast is observed by women when the sun passes from aquarius to pisces, praying
>for the longevity of their husbands (the confluence of maaci and panguni  or maagha and phalguna >months). This is the Tamil tradition. This is called kAraTai-y-aan-nOnbu. In Skt. karaTa connotes a royal >dynasty.
>Are there similar festivals observed in other parts of Indian subcontinent?
>Regards, Kalyanaraman.
===========================================
Yes similar tradition is prevelant in other parts as well. 

In Andhra Pradesh, it is observed on Kaartika Paurnami (The women perform some rituals and then lit lamps which are floated in river waters -- "Kaartika Deepam".). The purpose is the same : praying for the longevity of their husbands.

In north India, this is celebrated as "Karua Chauth". The rituals are somewhat similar.

I am not sure about the time when this festival is observed. Of course keeping a fast on the day is a common practice for the women.

Thanks & Regards,
N. S. S. Sharma 





From pfilliozat at magic.fr  Fri Mar  7 08:36:15 1997
From: pfilliozat at magic.fr (pfilliozat at magic.fr)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 09:36:15 +0100
Subject: wives celebrating for husbands' longevity
Message-ID: <161227028817.23782.10875079375380563868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Hi,
>A ceremial fast is observed by women when the sun passes from aquarius to
>pisces, praying
>for the longevity of their husbands (the confluence of maaci and panguni
>or maagha and phalguna months). This is the Tamil tradition. This is
>called kAraTai-y-aan-nOnbu. In Skt. karaTa connotes a royal dynasty.
>Are there similar festivals observed in other parts of Indian subcontinent?
>Regards, Kalyanaraman.

In KarnATaka the most noteworthy ceremony performed by women for their
husband's longevity and prosperity extends on a full month. The vrata
starts on the 3rd day of Caitra. It ends on the third day of VaishAkha,
which is the most important day called akshayatRtIyA. If this akshyatRtIyA
comes on a Wednesday and with RohinInaksatra, it is considered as the most
auspicious. The vrata has several names such as CaitragaurI, ToTTiLgaurI,
UyyALegaurI, VasantagaurI. There is a story related to the vrata, told to
be in BhavishyottarapurANa. The akshayatRtIyA is considered as one of the
three best days of the year, the other two being the new-year day (YugAdi)
and the first day of DasarA.
Best regards, Vasundhara Filliozat.







From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk  Fri Mar  7 10:05:57 1997
From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 10:05:57 +0000
Subject: Virtual TeX fonts for CSX
Message-ID: <161227028822.23782.14489707548823357872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have built (or rather I have written a program to build) virtual TeX
fonts implementing the CSX character set for various popular fonts, and
placed these on my FTP server bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk. They are in the
directory /pub/john/software/fonts/csx_fonts, and the following virtual
fonts are available: 

(1) Computer Modern (Roman, Italic, Slanted and Bold text fonts in the
    standard sizes);

(2) the four standard versions (Roman, Italic/Oblique, Bold, BoldItalic/
    BoldOblique) of each of the following PostScript fonts: Times,
    Helvetica, Courier, Palatino, New Century Schoolbook.

The program which creates the virtual fonts is also available under the
name csxvpl in the directory /pub/john/software/programs. However, if
anyone finds it difficult to use (for example, by reason of not having
Perl 5 on his/her system), I would probably be willing to meet any
reasonable request to create new virtual fonts. 

To use such a font it is necessary merely to copy the .tfm and the .vf
file to the directories where TeX and its friends expect to see such
things (this will vary from system to system). One can then say

 \font \myfont = cmr_csx10 % (or ptmr at 11 pt, or whatever)
 \myfont

and then type in CSX text.

To reach these fonts via the World Wide Web, connect to the URL quoted
below and follow the "fonts" link.

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html






From thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp  Fri Mar  7 01:13:34 1997
From: thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 10:13:34 +0900
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028799.23782.6555403948439620896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At  8:56 AM 97.3.6 +0000, Pierre Filliozat wrote:
>There is a consecrated list of six moral enemies of man.That is probably
>the source of interpreting ripu and synonyms as referring to "6". The list
>is found in the following subhaa.sita
>kaama.h krodha"s ca lobha"s ca maano har.so madas tathaa /
>ete hi .sa.d vijetavyaa nitya.m sva.m deham aa"sritaa.h //
>For references see Sternbach, Mahaasubhaa.sitasa.mgraha.
>With regards,
>P.-.S. Filliozat

A similar list of six enemies is said to occur in Bhaaravi's
Kiraataarjuniiya according to Apte's dictionary (s.v. ari), though I
cannnot confirm the context as I do not have the work at hand.  
By the way, common word numerals for "6" in Indian mathematics and
astronomy are aGga, Rtu, and rasa, and the word ari and its synonyms are
very rare.  For example, they do not occur in Varaahamihira's
PaJcasiddhaantikaa (ca. AD 550), Bhaaskara I's comm. (629) on the
AaryabhaTiiya, Mahaaviira's GaNitasaarasaMgraha (ca. 850), and Bhaaskara
II's Liilaavatii (1150), which all utilize bhuutasaMkhyaas in their suutras
and udaaharaNas.  But their actual use in that sense can be confirmed in
the following astronomical text, in which ari and ripu are employed for
"6".
VaTezvara, _ VaTezvarasiddhanta _ (AD 904), ed. with an English translation
and his own comm. by K. S. Shukla, New Delhi: Indian National Science
Academy, 1985 (Part 2) and 1986 (Part 1).
Best regards, Hayashi






From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at  Fri Mar  7 09:22:05 1997
From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 10:22:05 +0100
Subject: QUERY: BHIMA
Message-ID: <161227028818.23782.10272426919936961621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Hello to everybody
>
>it seems that in the javanese Mahabharata, there is a story about Bhima 
>searching for his own self; during the search, he goes to the ground of 
>the ocean, where he finds himself - only in a reduced (smaller) form of his 
>"normal" self.
>
>Does anybody know, whether this story also occurs in the Sanskrit (or any 
>other Indian) Mahabharata - and if so -- where?
>
>Thanks.  ULRIKE
>
>

I may be in error, but this story is not, I think, in the Javanese 
Mahabharata, but is the frame story of the Navaruci (ed. and tranl. by 
Prijohoetomo, Nawaruci: Inleiding, Middel-Javaansche prozatekst, vertaling, 
Groningen, 1934). [see also, Jan Gonda, "Some Notes on the Relation between 
Syntactic and Metrical Units in a Javanese Kidung, BKI 114 (1958), 
pp.98-116]. A metrical version is Poerbatjaraka, Dewa-Ruci, in Djawa 20 
(1940), pp.5-55.

The language of both of these versions is hardly Old, but rather Middle 
Javanese, something which itself would militate against the story  being of 
Indian origin. 


Max Nihom
Vienna






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Mar  7 10:38:36 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 10:38:36 +0000
Subject: yamaataaraajabhaanasalagaam
Message-ID: <161227028824.23782.17527317134942988817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Where is this metrical mnemonic key first described in Sanskrit
literature?

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From pf at cix.co.uk  Fri Mar  7 10:49:00 1997
From: pf at cix.co.uk (pf at cix.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 10:49:00 +0000
Subject: A genetic study of N. Indian population
Message-ID: <161227028825.23782.3656871676548727424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Probably the results of this study must be qualified in the light of the
earlier evidence assembled in Tsuji,K. et al. HLA 1991. Proc. 11th Int.
Histocompatibility Worshop and Conference. Oxford Sc.Publ.: OUP 1992:

- D.P.Singh et al 'Distribution of HLA antigens in Asian Indians'
investigated 167 Indians (48 Bhargava, 72 Iyer, 47 Punjabis: Delhi Sikhs)
and 99 of a mixed Indian background in canada. The result is that all of
these groups clustered together and are clearly distinct from 'the rest of
the Caucasoid populations studied'. In addition differences between castes
were found, indicating the impact of endogamy.
- Tadashi Imamashi et al 'Genetic relationships among various human
populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms' also identifies 'Indians'and
'Iyers' 'Bhargavas' and 'Tribal Indian' to be closer to the Caucasoid than
the Mongolid populations in terms of 'standard genetic distance'. And
"Gypsy [Spanish] was interestingly the closest to Indian populations [in a
dendrogram constructed by NJ method, p.629]. This is consistent with the
idea that the Gypsy is of Indian origin" (p.630)

However, in another dendrogram (UPG method, p.628) the 'Gypsys (Spanish)'
appear far closer to 'South African (Blacks, Capetown)' than to the Indian
populations. For me this shows that a lot of work has to be done in this
field (related to transplant medicine) until more reliable results are to
be expected.

Peter Fluegel
pf at cix.co.uk





From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU  Fri Mar  7 17:28:47 1997
From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 11:28:47 -0600
Subject: kyoto/harvard scheme
Message-ID: <161227028832.23782.16407783154109029106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for every one!-regards,Narahari





From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Fri Mar  7 17:34:24 1997
From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 12:34:24 -0500
Subject: Encyc of Hinduism
Message-ID: <161227028837.23782.4346847845592419979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I also received this announcement from Vedams Intl. I looked through it
very hurriedly before consigning it to the circular file. I did notice,
however, that one article is attributed to me, and at that an article that
I cannot recall writing. I hope it is a good one. Maybe it will be deja vu
all over again when I see it. Did anyone else have a similar experience?

Fred Smith
Univ. of Iowa

Frederick M. Smith
Asst. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion
School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall
Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall
University of Iowa
Iowa City, IA  52242  U.S.A.
+ 319-335-2178 (O)
+ 319-338-7193 (H)
fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu







From apandey at u.washington.edu  Fri Mar  7 21:26:59 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 13:26:59 -0800
Subject: Urdu TTF
Message-ID: <161227028841.23782.16811748202747465252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Tobias Grote-Beverborg wrote:

> I'm looking for Urdu True Type Fonts for Windows 3.11.
> Could anyone recommend me a site (URL) for a free download?

Although I do not know of a standalone TrueType font for Urdu, you might
want to have a look at Sadaf for Windows, a word-processor which uses two
Nasta`liq TTF fonts to produce the Urdu output. This program is a real gem
as it produces the Nasta`liq output as you type it in, ligatures and all.
The URL for the Sadaf page is:

			http://www.pak.net/link1.htm

A free copy of Sadaf for Windows may be obtained from the above site.

*I am in no way associated with Sadaf for Windows, except for the fact
that I think it's a real beaut! :-) *

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey
University of Washington
apandey at u.washington.edu







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Fri Mar  7 13:15:44 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 14:15:44 +0100
Subject: A genetic study of N. Indian population
Message-ID: <161227028829.23782.899138902081416724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:57 7.03.97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>Hello all,
>
>Regarding the article on the genetic study of certain peoples of
>North Indian provinces, It seems that this study may be the first of its
>kind. This article got my attention because it was mentioned that these
>studies were done on some inhabitants of Uttar Pradesh. Would anyone
>happen to know whether certain specific groups, or castes, were tested, or
>whether it was a random study of peoples of various caste, ethnic, etc.
>background? Also would anyone know if the report for this study was
>published?
>
>I realize that the British did much in trying to assemble ethnographic
>data of Her Majesty's subjects and had published these records in numerous
>Census of India volumes. But nothing like this!

You may want to have a look at the following book:

The History and Geography of Human Genes.
by: L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza. Princeton
University Press, 1994. 

It treats the genetic map of the world quite comprehensively, and has a fair
amount of data on South Asia.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse






From emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr  Fri Mar  7 13:17:49 1997
From: emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr (Emil HERSAK)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 14:17:49 +0100
Subject: Dravidian/Uralic
Message-ID: <161227028826.23782.9180172341373512698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

The short short encyclopaedic questions, that I would very much appreciate if someone could answer:

First, regardless of whether the term Indo-European can be attributed to Thomas Young, as is sometimes claimed, can anyone give me the birth and death dates of Young.

Second, in his book "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" (1992), in a very useful  critique of the various "racial" interpretations of Indo-European, J.P. Mallory wrote: "Cannon Isaac Taylor, for example, once proposed the notion that the Indo-Europeans were essentially 'an improved race of  Finns'" (page 268). Can anyone provide information on the context for this quote. Namely Mallory, does not give any information on the source, or on Taylor himself. BTW, for the sake of bibliographic precision, I would be pleased to find out what Mallory's own initials stand for (J.P.). 

Third, it would be very interested in hearing anything on the present state of the theory of ancient language links between Dravidian and Uralic. I am aware that this has been rejected by many linguistis, but nevertheless the theory is still often encountered in the literature. In this context, bellow I give a quote from a text by Janos Harmatta presented at a conference in Dushanbe several years ago. Unfortunately, in Harmatta's work there seem to be inconsistencies, and despite my attempts, I have not found any information on either HARALI or the Sumerian he mentions in the following quote. Some persons I contacted on the matter assumed the references were pure fabrication. Nevertheless, before rejecting the idea, I would appreciate your comments.

"Historical and linguistic research often presumed that the Dravidians came from Northern territories lying around Lake Aral, where they had intensive linguistic contacts with Finno-Ugrian tribes. It was even assumed that Dravidian and Finno-Ugrian were genetically related languages. Linguists tried to assure a linguistic basis for this theory, but even the latest effort to point out a great number of common elements in Finno-Ugrian and Dravidian vocabulary did not arrive at any conclusive result. In any case, however, if the golden land H(+hook sub)arali (later Arali, Arallu) of the Sumerian hymm on trade with Tilmun, situated beyond Tukris(+hachek) in the far North-East, can be sought in Iran, and perhaps, even in Ancient Khorazmia indeed, then this name may be of Dravidian origin (cf. Tamil ar[+dieresis sub]al "to burn, to shine", ar[+dieresis sub]ali "fire", ar(+dieresis sottoscritto)alo[+macron]n "Agni, sun") and its meaning could be the same as that of Khorazmia, reflecting Old Iranian *Xva(macron)ra+zmi- "land of the Sun". If the localisation of H(+hook sub)arali and this interpretation is correct, then this toponym may give a hint for the ancient home of the Proto-Dravidians" (p 81). 

Source: J. Harmatta, "Proto-Iranians and Proto-Indians in Central Asia in the 2nd Millenium B.C. /linguistic evidence/. Etnicheskie problemy istorii central'noj azii v drebnosti /II tysjacheletie do n.e. - Ethnic problems of the History of Central Asia in the Easly Period/ Second Millenium B.B. - Moscow, 1981, pp. 75-83.

Sincerely,

Emil Hersak
Institut for Migration and Ethnic Studies,
Zagreb, Croatia.
e-mail: emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr







From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Mar  7 16:15:36 1997
From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 16:15:36 +0000
Subject: Encyc of Hinduism
Message-ID: <161227028831.23782.13032346302241832504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
---
I just received an announcement for an Encyclopedia of Hinduism, from
Vedams Books International, New Delhi. It apparently consists of 15 volumes
for $1100 minus 30% discount for libraries and academics (= $770). I am
wondering if anyone is familiar with it and its background. Recently an
encyclopedia of Buddhism appeared from India with pirated and often
uncredited articles, many long outdated, which the surviving authors knew
nothing about.
Is this project more legitimate? 
--- I don't think so;
To me it looks very much the same as its predecessor and I should 
be careful buying it as an individual (As a library, we will have to 
buy it anyway). Also, Vedams seems to have high phantasy-prices only 
to look good in giving 30% reduction. That was so in the case of the
Enc.Buddh.; Fortunately, we asked our own supplier about his price and in 
the end we got the whole work even cheaper than the so called 
reduced price.
So long, Gabriele ----

----------------------------------------------------------
Dr Gabriele Zeller
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
72016 Tuebingen
Tel:+49-7071-2974030
Fax:+49-7071-293123
----------------------------------------------------------





From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi  Fri Mar  7 16:44:33 1997
From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 16:44:33 +0000
Subject: Epigraphy
Message-ID: <161227028828.23782.5317908263954687490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


My somewhat belated thanks to B. Quessel, J. Neelis, U. Niklas, G. von 
Simson, and R. Salomon. With these five replies the answer seems more 
confirmed than if I had been able to consult the book myself.
With best wishes

Klaus Karttunen






From bpj at netg.se  Fri Mar  7 15:33:12 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 17:33:12 +0200
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028834.23782.3775293915503776327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:14 7.3.1997 +0000, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>>Japanese has not only one, but two alphabetic scripts as well as a third
>>script of Chinese characters.
>
>As a matter of terminology, I think it is more standard to call
>them syllabaries, not alphabets.
>
>There may be arguments as to whether one should call Devanagari
>an alphabet or a syllabary, but I think there is none for hiragana
>and katakana: the 5 signs "ka ki ku ke ko" (say; and so on for the
>rest of the basic signs) bearing absolutely no relation to one other.

Exactly. In fact script experts (and here, unlike in Indology, I dare call
myself an expert :) regard the Japanese _kana_ syllabaries as the only
"pure" syllabaries in use today, since graphemes sharing the same
consonant, like {ka ki ku ke ko} are not graphically derived from one
another as they are in Indic and Ethiopian scripts. In fact the Cherokee
syllabary is also of the "Japanese" type, and it may still be in some
limited use, as are some recently invented syllabaries of SE Asia and
Africa.

>>The Korean alphabet is very sophisticated,
>>and predates the Japanese script. It is often ascribed to an emperor of the
>>Silla Dynasty (661-935).
>
>That is news to me. I thought Hangul was introduced by king Yi Sejong in 1443.
>I wonder what the source of your information is.
>
>Maybe what you're referring to is Idu? (But Idu seems to be a lot
>*older* than what you say, and is not an alphabet, and certainly does
>not have any Indic connection)

As Narayan S. Raja already pointed out the Korean (Hangul) alphabet was
invented in the 15th ctry by a commission of scholars led by king Li Sezong
himself. The invention is well documented. The inventors were well versed
in the Chinese tradition of phonological study (also arranging two lengthy
trips to consult a Chinese expert), and apparently also in Indic phonetic
tradition, probably by way of Tibet, since the influence from the hP'ags-pa
/phagba/ script -- an adaptation of the Tibetan script to Monggol -- is
obvious. (The name hP'ags-pa means "aarya", but refers to the monastic
title of the script's inventor, rather than to its Indic ancestry.)

In fact Korean script is even subphonemic and iconic, since the basic
shapes of the consonant letters depict the vocal organs involved in their
formation:
    _
   (_)  /h*/    depicts the glottal opening (sarjan:iya).
    __
     |  /g/     depicts the tongue rised to the velum (ka.n.thya).

   |_   /n/     depicts the tongue rised to the alveoli (m:urdhya).

    /\  /s/     depicts the lower frontal teeth (dantya).
   ___
   |_|  /m/     depicts the opening of the mouth (o.s.thya).

*Voiced breath as in Sanskrit. Now obsolete and confused with /:n/
(guttural nasal); the obsolete sign for glottal stop, and the sign for
voiceless /.h/ derived in turn from it, are also derived from this symbol.

Other consonants are derived from these basic shapes in a regular fashion.
Thus from |_ /n/ are derived:
                   _
    _              _|                _\
   |_ /d/ (stop), |_  /l/ (liquid), |_ /th/ (aspirate).
                   _       __
Cf. the deriv. of (_) /h/,  | /g/ and /\ /s/:
    _|       __       __       __\
   (_) /:n/,  | /kh/, /\ /dz/, /\  /ts.h/.

The vowels are all derived from the three cardinal values /@, i, u/ (where
/u/ is however unrounded, and /@/ rounded), just as in P:a.nini:

        . /a/   | /i/   - /u/

Other vowels are derived from these, e.g.:
    _                                                _
  { . } /w/ (rounded /u/), { |. } /a/, { .| } /e/, { .| } /ui/,
  { |.| } /ai/, { .|| } /ei/.

As soon as my webpage is arranged a fuller treatment (with better graphics
:-)) will be found there!

Note that transliteration of Korean isn't nearly as standardized as for
Indic languages. Yhe one I use is adapted to ASCII and builds on the way
complex phonemes are derived in the native script -- thus on Middle Korean
rather than Modern phonology (as I understand it; your mileage may vary).

Sarvamangalam!

Philip Jonsson <bpj at netg.se>







From bpj at netg.se  Fri Mar  7 15:33:19 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 17:33:19 +0200
Subject: Korean/Tamil/Hindi (was Re: Query on var.nabheda)
Message-ID: <161227028835.23782.13350670977648945881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 23:04 6.3.1997 +0000, Sudipto Chatterjee wrote:
>Lay person's question:
>
>I read while doing some research (on an entirely different subject that I
>won't go into at this time) at the NYPL's Oriental Division that Mundari,
>the central Indian aboroginal/aadivaasi laguage has some connections with
>Magyar and Korean, and that Magyar and Korean are related in some ways. Is
>there any truth in this?
>
>Just curious.

A semi-laymans answer:

Magyar (aka Hungarian) does belong to the Ural-Altaic family of languages,
as do Finnish, Estonian (Uralic branch), Monggol, Tunggus and Manchu
(Altaic branch). Korean (and Japanese) are by some scholars connected to
the Altaic branch, although it is not even conclusively proven that Korean
and Japanese are connected to each other (since apparent cognates may or
may not be old loans). Other possibilities are a connection to Austric
languages (to which Munda as well as most Indonesian languages belongs) or
Dravidian (which may of course also be related to each other -- opinions
differ). Personally I believe someone might well build a career on Raja's
observations ;-)

Sarvamangalam!

Philip Jonsson <bpj at netg.se>







From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Fri Mar  7 18:42:35 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 18:42:35 +0000
Subject: Urdu TTF
Message-ID: <161227028839.23782.3508405615571979948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members of the List!

I'm looking for Urdu True Type Fonts for Windows 3.11.

Could anyone recommend me a site (URL) for a free download?

Thanks;
Yours

Tobias
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                //OM//
                        SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/
                         SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/
                        SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/
                      MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/
                        OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. Tobias Grote-Beverborg
Theodorstr. 370, 40472 Duesseldorf, Germany
ph/fax: 0049-211-6581306
e-mail: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de
        grotebev at uni-koeln.de

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu  Fri Mar  7 23:53:23 1997
From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 18:53:23 -0500
Subject: wives celebrating for husbands' longevity
Message-ID: <161227028843.23782.845231876522719464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



In Orissa, the Kartika lamps on the river are floated to
commemorate the voyage of the traders to the Pacific
islands.  I understand similar lamp festivals are celebrated
in Thailand and neigboring areas on Kartika Purnami day,
which possibly signifies the return journey.  Most likely
the travel was between November and April because of
the weather conditions.

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Sreenivasa S. S. Nittala wrote:

> 
> Dr. Kalyanaraman wrote :
> >Hi,
> >A ceremial fast is observed by women when the sun passes from aquarius to pisces, praying
> >for the longevity of their husbands (the confluence of maaci and panguni  or maagha and phalguna >months). This is the Tamil tradition. This is called kAraTai-y-aan-nOnbu. In Skt. karaTa connotes a royal >dynasty.
> >Are there similar festivals observed in other parts of Indian subcontinent?
> >Regards, Kalyanaraman.
> ===========================================
> Yes similar tradition is prevelant in other parts as well. 
> 
> In Andhra Pradesh, it is observed on Kaartika Paurnami (The women perform some rituals and then lit lamps which are floated in river waters -- "Kaartika Deepam".). The purpose is the same : praying for the longevity of their husbands.
> 
> In north India, this is celebrated as "Karua Chauth". The rituals are somewhat similar.
> 
> I am not sure about the time when this festival is observed. Of course keeping a fast on the day is a common practice for the women.
> 
> Thanks & Regards,
> N. S. S. Sharma
> 






From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Fri Mar  7 19:24:11 1997
From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 20:24:11 +0100
Subject: TITUS: Indo-European Course Register (Sommer 1997).
Message-ID: <161227028840.23782.11935349069193923871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

TITUS has the new Indo-European 
Course Register (Sommer Semester 1997)

We have now incorporated it into the 
TITUS Project web pages under following URL:
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/idg-ss97.html

Best Regards
    J. Martinez








From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Sat Mar  8 04:34:09 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 09:34:09 +0500
Subject: Sarasvati river
Message-ID: <161227028844.23782.10558727174097189825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
The following exchange will be of interest to all indology members.
The fact that the submergence of Sarasvati in aandhi or sandstorms is a
recent geological event (only circa 1500 B.C.) gives hope, however slender, for her 
revival. With groundwater aquefurs recharged and the great desert used as a
natural reservoir, and by avoiding surface water flows (to avoid evaporation), 
Sarasvati lakes will emerge thanks to the undulating terrain. Solar panels
can provide energy to pump up the groundwater as needed. Experimental
farms for salicornia have started in Pali, Rajasthan and in Luni, Kacch. (Also,
in Sirkali, near KoLLadam mangroves or coastal wetlands, Taminladu). The fundamental
problem of the desertification of the Himalayan glaciers has also to be addressed...

In geological time measure 3500 years is but a second? 

We need guidance from all concerned world citizens to make this project a reality.
 
Regards. Kalyanaraman.

>Subject: Re: Saraswati
>
>Dear Dr. Rangarajan,
>Thanks a lot for your kindness. We need all the blessings of people like you.
>The full report has appeared in the Current Science Jan. 97 issue. We are
>activating field-workers in Jodhpur to start with. This has to be a people's movement
>to revive the Sarasvati by enhancing the groundwater resources, using the poroud sands of
> Marusthali as a natural reservoir without contractors getting involved. The big problem
>is to stop the desertification of the Himalayas and the NW India; many parts of 
>Haryana and Punjab are also getting desertified because of improper drainage
>systems resulting in waterlogging and salinity buildup. Tree plantations and plantation
>of Umari (Salicornia brachiata) are the key.
>Best regards, Kalyanaraman.
>
>At 08:10 AM 3/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Dr.Kalyanaraman,
>>Happy to read an article in India Journal,Los Angeles , today about the
>>study of nuclear scientists of BARC in the January issue of "Current
>>Science ' journal regarding the  Saraswati river.I learn that it
>>confirms the course has links with the dry bed of Ghaggar River in the
>>Ganganagar District.The article also states that in the South West it is
>>reported to have met or cut across surviving courses of the Hakra and
>>Nara Rivers in Pakistan.It appears that the  confirmation has come from
>>satellite imagery in Jaisalmer District in Rajasthan state.
>>Congratulations on the success of your painstaking effort.
>>Dr.M.R.Rangarajan
>><HTML><BODY>
>>






From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu  Sat Mar  8 18:16:46 1997
From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 10:16:46 -0800
Subject: Sarasvati river
Message-ID: <161227028852.23782.6671282912596965426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:47 +0000 3/8/97, Dr. S.Kalyanaraman wrote:
>Hi,
>I like the pun on the word 'fur'; pardon my misspelling, it should be
>aquefers.
>Thanks Dominik for so pleasantly pointing this out. Regards. Kalyanaraman.
>

My dictionary talks about *AQUIFER* -- "a geological formation of permeable
rock, gravel, or sand containing or conducting groundwater..."
(Not sure whether this is an Indologists' daily word, though.)








From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sat Mar  8 12:08:50 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 12:08:50 +0000
Subject: Sarasvati river
Message-ID: <161227028846.23782.14301486918848589167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Dr. S.Kalyanaraman wrote:

> The fact that the submergence of Sarasvati in aandhi or sandstorms is a
> recent geological event (only circa 1500 B.C.) gives hope, however
> slender, for her revival. With groundwater aquefurs recharged and the
> great desert used as a ...

Once the Sarasvati is flowing again, it will inevitably become much colder
in the desert, so the aquefurs will be very useful for wrapping up in, and
keeping warm. 

[sorry ...]

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Sat Mar  8 13:10:56 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 18:10:56 +0500
Subject: Sarasvati river
Message-ID: <161227028847.23782.5255747199832530319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
I like the pun on the word 'fur'; pardon my misspelling, it should be aquefers.
Thanks Dominik for so pleasantly pointing this out. Regards. Kalyanaraman.


At 12:11 PM 3/8/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Dr. S.Kalyanaraman wrote:
>
>> The fact that the submergence of Sarasvati in aandhi or sandstorms is a
>> recent geological event (only circa 1500 B.C.) gives hope, however
>> slender, for her revival. With groundwater aquefurs recharged and the
>> great desert used as a ...
>
>Once the Sarasvati is flowing again, it will inevitably become much colder
>in the desert, so the aquefurs will be very useful for wrapping up in, and
>keeping warm. 
>
>[sorry ...]
>
>All the best,
>Dominik
>
>--
>Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
>email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
><URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545
>
>
>
>
>





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sat Mar  8 18:23:58 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 18:23:58 +0000
Subject: CS Utopia updated
Message-ID: <161227028850.23782.1740750236334032394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos noticed a flaw in the Adobe Utopia Computer Sanskrit font
that has been available for the last year or so from the INDOLOGY web/ftp
site.

I've fixed the problem (italic "L" had an erroneous underdot), and
uploaded new versions of the files (version 1.1), both PostScript and
TrueType. 

The names are:
adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-PS-11.readme
adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-PS-11.zip
adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-TTF-11.readme
adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-TTF-11.zip

and the site for direct ftp is
  
  ftp.ucl.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software


All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Sat Mar  8 15:33:20 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 20:33:20 +0500
Subject: Sarasvati river and spelling mistake
Message-ID: <161227028849.23782.7019710998932828669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Oh for my English spelling! Why didn't Bernard Shaw carry his reform through?
Sorry twice!! The correct spelling should be: aquifers.
How come it is aqueduct, not aqui-?
I think I should have a small pocket Oxford English dictionary close by,
in addition to my bulky 25+ indian language dictionaries... 
I should thank my friends for pointing out my misspelling with such good cheer.
Cheers.
k.





From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Sun Mar  9 01:52:09 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 06:52:09 +0500
Subject: Sarasvati river and aquifers
Message-ID: <161227028853.23782.11268224126198931529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
I shall be grateful for guidance from members of the group on who we can
contact on the following topics related to aquifers:

1. Is there something like a ground-penetrating radar mapping system to prepare
a map of NW India showing the aquifers of Sarasvati?
2. Where can we get more technical details on the work done on farming on the Ngev desert
using waters of the Jordan river?
3. Are there other arid zones where watershed management techniques have been 
successfully employed to provide new agricultural farm incomes?

Best regards, Kalyanaraman (Indus Sarasvati Research Centre).



At 07:09 PM 3/8/97 GMT, you wrote:
>At 12:47 +0000 3/8/97, Dr. S.Kalyanaraman wrote:
>>Hi,
>>I like the pun on the word 'fur'; pardon my misspelling, it should be
>>aquefers.
>>Thanks Dominik for so pleasantly pointing this out. Regards. Kalyanaraman.
>>
>
>My dictionary talks about *AQUIFER* -- "a geological formation of permeable
>rock, gravel, or sand containing or conducting groundwater..."
>(Not sure whether this is an Indologists' daily word, though.)
>
>
>
>
>
>





From wgw at dnai.com  Sun Mar  9 15:45:51 1997
From: wgw at dnai.com (wgw at dnai.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 07:45:51 -0800
Subject: Sarasvati river and spelling mistake
Message-ID: <161227028859.23782.100975304058513618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>How come it is aqueduct, not aqui-?
>
>Obviously, Latin water gunates when you stick it in a pipe or trench.
>
>Best,

Bill


William G Wall, Ph.D.
Institute for Vaisnava Studies
Graduate Theological Union
PO Box 11216
Berkeley CA 94712
(510) 849-8280 (office)

email: wgw at dnai.com
Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se








From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sun Mar  9 12:12:06 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 13:12:06 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028856.23782.16512428322717358829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 03:11 9.03.97 GMT, you wrote:
>>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>>In spite of the history of the word, "Indo-Germanic" has today, in my
>>opinion, been "sanitized". Very few people today would use the word with its
>>old ideological connotations. However, I can't see that it is a good term.
>>Personally I prefer Indo-European. But I do not feel uneasy if a modern
>>scholar uses "Indo-Germanic". I believe the frequency of Fascists among
>>Indologists these days is fairly insignificant.
>
>	Sorry, I can't agree. The word "Indo-Germanic" is not sanitized:
>
>1) only scholars make a difference between germanic and german, Iceland is
>just a poor 'alibi'.

That is probably true, but then most people don't even know what
Indo-European or Indo-Germanisch is. My point is that "Indo-Germanisch"
today simply is semantic alternative to "Indo-European". There is no
particular ideological content.

>2) I understand some german peoples are tired to hear their past, but
>history is history and can't be changed just by good will. Wait one century
>and Hitler will be the same historical product as Napoleon or Gengis Khan,
>**not yet**.

You have to remember which generation of Germans you are talking about. Most
of the Germans involved in the Second World War as adult and politically
responsible individuals are today decrepit, dying or dead. I have studied in
Germany for two years (in the seventies), and my impression was that the
Germans that belonged to my generation were not much different from
Scandinavians of about the same age. They are not responsible for the Nazi
atrocities. Notice that when Goldhagen went to Germany in order to debate
German anti-semitism, most of the younger generation seems to have sided
with him (according to press reports here). So there has been a change in
German political mentality. (It was actually monitored by sociologists, and
took place about 1960).

>3) the beast is still alive, and not just in Europa, and you know it.

Certainly. The beast is alive, although in most places fairly marginalized.
The places to worry about are Austria and certain parts of France. It
interesting to notice that in spite of the strain caused by the absorbation
of East Germany into larger Germany, Germany has not become the European
country where neo-faschism is most prevalent. When I was in Vienna some
three years ago, doing research at the University there, 400.000 citizens of
Munich took to the streets to protest against racism. Walking from the
University to my hotel one evening I came across a bunch of Viennese doing
the same thing. They were barely able to fill 50 meters of sidewalk. 

>4) one of the best french sanscritist, Jean Haudry, is member of the staff
>of the 'Front National', specially for ideology.

That is sad (I never understood why some intellectuals felt drawn towards
extremist positions), but as we say, one swallow does not make a summer.
Undoubtedly you will find people of a rightist leaning among Indologists, my
point is that they are not typical. And by the way: Haudry uses the term
"Indo-europeen".

>6) Indo-European is a word not marked by nazionalism. 

I agree. As I said, I think it is a better term. But I still don't mind
Germans using the term Indo-Germanisch. During my studies in Germany I never
met a single Indologist who had the slightest faschist leanings.
"Indo-Germanisch" was simply a linguistic habit.

>	Yes, german scholars are free, yes they can use freely the word
>"Indo-Germanic", but they must know that is an insult for some other people
>in Europa.

It may be more insulting to a speaker of Romance languages than to a
Scandinavian. The bottom line, to me, is that it is not really worth much
attention as long as it is not explicitly ideologized. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin






From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Sun Mar  9 13:12:17 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 14:12:17 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028858.23782.3045208648714837305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>You have to remember which generation of Germans you are talking about. Most
>of the Germans involved in the Second World War as adult and politically
>responsible individuals are today decrepit, dying or dead. I have studied in
>Germany for two years (in the seventies), and my impression was that the
>Germans that belonged to my generation were not much different from
>Scandinavians of about the same age.

Exactly. This is why I find the hyper-sensitivity of some well-meaning
non-Germans, when such topics are discussed, pretty ironical, given that
Germans of this generation have no trouble at all discussing them, and
are much more ready to approach them just as what they are for them,
namely history.

When I posted on this list a comment on Bopp's position on "IE",
I tried to make clear I did not believe the use of "IG" by German
Indoeuropeanists nowadays was anything other than idiomatic (while suggesting
that they might want to look at the pedigree of the term nonetheless)

Sure enough, I was immediately jumped on by a non-German (of course),
for not leaving old history alone, for treating the Germans like pariahs
and I don't know what else.









From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sun Mar  9 16:19:34 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 17:19:34 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028861.23782.14927015270264718751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Baltuch wrote:

>When I posted on this list a comment on Bopp's position on "IE",
>I tried to make clear I did not believe the use of "IG" by German
>Indoeuropeanists nowadays was anything other than idiomatic (while suggesting
>that they might want to look at the pedigree of the term nonetheless)

One thing has struck me: For many years, the term "IG" has been used in a
perfectly inocuous manner, having been emptied of its ideological content.
Have you thought about the possibility that by making it an object of
discussion, you may contribute to its being ideologized again? Maybe we
should let sleeping bears sleep?

Best regards,

Lars Martin 






From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Sun Mar  9 16:31:42 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 17:31:42 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028862.23782.5306966481099016972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>When I posted on this list a comment on Bopp's position on "IE",
>>I tried to make clear I did not believe the use of "IG" by German
>>Indoeuropeanists nowadays was anything other than idiomatic (while suggesting
>>that they might want to look at the pedigree of the term nonetheless)
>
>One thing has struck me: For many years, the term "IG" has been used in a
>perfectly inocuous manner, having been emptied of its ideological content.
>Have you thought about the possibility that by making it an object of
>discussion, you may contribute to its being ideologized again? Maybe we
>should let sleeping bears sleep?

Excuse-me?  My first intervention on this topic happened when
someone suggested that *the whole world* should switch to IG
"as a hommage" to Bopp.

Please check the sequence of the posts. Thank you.









From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sun Mar  9 17:51:34 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 18:51:34 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028863.23782.2540422976593709954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Excuse-me?  My first intervention on this topic happened when
>someone suggested that *the whole world* should switch to IG
>"as a hommage" to Bopp.
>
>Please check the sequence of the posts. Thank you.

Excuse me! You seem to have caught me at one of my lesser moments!

Best regards,

Lars Martin






From jehms at globalxs.nl  Sun Mar  9 19:50:58 1997
From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 20:50:58 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028865.23782.11661116572917366088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Op 09-maa-97 schreef Lars Martin Fosse:

>At 03:11 9.03.97 GMT, you wrote:
>>>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>>>In spite of the history of the word, "Indo-Germanic" has today, in my
>>>opinion, been "sanitized". Very few people today would use the word with
its
>>>old ideological connotations. However, I can't see that it is a good term.
>>>Personally I prefer Indo-European. But I do not feel uneasy if a modern
>>>scholar uses "Indo-Germanic". I believe the frequency of Fascists among
>>>Indologists these days is fairly insignificant.
>>
>>Sorry, I can't agree. The word "Indo-Germanic" is not sanitized:
>>
>>1) only scholars make a difference between germanic and german, Iceland is
>>just a poor 'alibi'.

>That is probably true, but then most people don't even know what
>Indo-European or Indo-Germanisch is. My point is that "Indo-Germanisch"
>today simply is semantic alternative to "Indo-European". There is no
>particular ideological content.

>>2) I understand some german peoples are tired to hear their past, but
>>history is history and can't be changed just by good will. Wait one century
>>and Hitler will be the same historical product as Napoleon or Gengis Khan,
>>**not yet**.

>You have to remember which generation of Germans you are talking about. Most
>of the Germans involved in the Second World War as adult and politically
>responsible individuals are today decrepit, dying or dead. I have studied in
>Germany for two years (in the seventies), and my impression was that the
>Germans that belonged to my generation were not much different from
>Scandinavians of about the same age. They are not responsible for the Nazi
>atrocities. Notice that when Goldhagen went to Germany in order to debate
>German anti-semitism, most of the younger generation seems to have sided
>with him (according to press reports here). So there has been a change in
>German political mentality. (It was actually monitored by sociologists, and
>took place about 1960).

>>3) the beast is still alive, and not just in Europa, and you know it.

>Certainly. The beast is alive, although in most places fairly marginalized.
>The places to worry about are Austria and certain parts of France. It
>interesting to notice that in spite of the strain caused by the absorbation
>of East Germany into larger Germany, Germany has not become the European
>country where neo-faschism is most prevalent. When I was in Vienna some
>three years ago, doing research at the University there, 400.000 citizens of
>Munich took to the streets to protest against racism. Walking from the
>University to my hotel one evening I came across a bunch of Viennese doing
>the same thing. They were barely able to fill 50 meters of sidewalk. 

>>4) one of the best french sanscritist, Jean Haudry, is member of the staff
>>of the 'Front National', specially for ideology.

>That is sad (I never understood why some intellectuals felt drawn towards
>extremist positions), but as we say, one swallow does not make a summer.
>Undoubtedly you will find people of a rightist leaning among Indologists, my
>point is that they are not typical. And by the way: Haudry uses the term
>"Indo-europeen".

>>6) Indo-European is a word not marked by nazionalism. 

>I agree. As I said, I think it is a better term. But I still don't mind
>Germans using the term Indo-Germanisch. During my studies in Germany I never
>met a single Indologist who had the slightest faschist leanings.
>"Indo-Germanisch" was simply a linguistic habit.

>>Yes, german scholars are free, yes they can use freely the word
>>"Indo-Germanic", but they must know that is an insult for some other people
>>in Europa.

>It may be more insulting to a speaker of Romance languages than to a
>Scandinavian. The bottom line, to me, is that it is not really worth much
>attention as long as it is not explicitly ideologized. 

>Best regards,

>Lars Martin

It's still remarkable that someone invented the word "Indo-Germanic" and
nobody came up with "Indo-Dutch", "Indo-Irish" or "Indo-Italian". If it's a
nazi-word, then it shouldn't be used anymore. If not then it still is a sign
of blunt and naieve nationalism. And maybe some people could be tempted to
jump to conclusions. There have been quite a few German philosophers, like
f.i. Martin Heidegger, who really believed that the German people were "das
metafysische Volk" and the true heirs of ancient Greek civilisation. Some of
those have still followers today. I would rather not be forgiving about it,
better safe than sorry. Let's drop the word.

Regards

Erik Hoogcarspel






From garzilli at shore.net  Mon Mar 10 03:48:32 1997
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 22:48:32 -0500
Subject: HOS: New Book
Message-ID: <161227028866.23782.16361928147651744392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

It is a pleasure to announce that Vol. 1 of the new 
Harvard Oriental Series "Opera Minora"
*Translating, Translations, Translators: From India to 
the West*, ed. by Enrica Garzilli, has just been 
released. See: 

http://www.shore.net/~india/ttt.html

Contributions by W. Callewaert, E. Garzilli, T. 
Goudriaan, K. van Kooij, S. Lienhard, D. Martin, A. 
Padoux, A. Passi, D. Pingree, S. Pollock, H. Resnick, 
D. Sensharma, A. Sharma, M. Witzel.

Paperback, pp. XVIII + 190, US$ 22.
Distributed by the Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, 
Harvard University, and South Asia Books

Enjoy the reading,

-- 
Dr. Enrica Garzilli
Univ. of Perugia (ITALY)
Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS 
(http://www.shore.net/~india)
*************************************************





From bpj at netg.se  Sun Mar  9 21:16:43 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 23:16:43 +0200
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028868.23782.1741978917183234696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>It's still remarkable that someone invented the word "Indo-Germanic" and
>nobody came up with "Indo-Dutch", "Indo-Irish" or "Indo-Italian". If it's a
>nazi-word, then it shouldn't be used anymore. If not then it still is a sign
>of blunt and naieve nationalism. And maybe some people could be tempted to
>jump to conclusions. There have been quite a few German philosophers, like
>f.i. Martin Heidegger, who really believed that the German people were "das
>metafysische Volk" and the true heirs of ancient Greek civilisation. Some of
>those have still followers today. I would rather not be forgiving about it,
>better safe than sorry. Let's drop the word.
>
>Regards
>
>Erik Hoogcarspel
>


Amen.



__
|_) |_  * | * __       __  ___   __ ___ __
|   | ) | | | |_)      (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ *
              |              |     \
B.Philip Jonsson <bpj at netg.se>
[I write in Swinglish, if nothing else is said.]
              _        _    .             _ _
|| Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha ||

"Peace is not simply the absence of war.
It is not a passive state of being.
We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war."
(His Holiness the XIV Dalai Lama)

"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth"







From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Sun Mar  9 22:35:26 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 23:35:26 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028869.23782.7636849586118644605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'd like to request from this honorable readership their opinions re. the
respective rhythmical properties of IG and IE in English, French, German,
Hindi, Spanish or any other language they're familiar with.

I have to admit that, to my ears, "unsyncopated" IE is more awkward
rhythmically than IG because of two hiatuses within the word.

However in French and German, IE could be converted into a "sycopated IE":
indeuropeen (un-deux-ropeen) and indeuropaeisch both 5 syllables long,
and probably is already in fluent speech (?). To some extent "syncopated IE"
gets closer to the rhythmical grace of IG, but not quite in my opinion.
(Note sync-IE still leaves a hiatus between the last syllable and the
penultimate. This can't reasonably be eliminated)

In English however, it seems to me the wonderful rhythmical possibilities
of that idiom (especially in the hipper litterary dialects) make
it possible to reduce Indeuropean to the mere three, THREE, syllables of
classy "injure-PEEN". In Hindi translitteration it could be something
like injRpIna I suppose, with a litterate vocalic R, and a silent a at the end,
but maybe the first -n- should undergo sandhi, so iJjRpIna. Note I know
*nothing* about Hindi, that much is amply clear, so serious scholars, or
anyone who knows what they're talking about, may wish to correct me here
(If it is possible to save anything, that is :)

Clearly no matter what rough treatment you submit IG to, in English,
you'll never achieve three syllables!

verse whereas IG might be more appropriate for the blank verse of tragedy,
French alexandrines, etc.

Cheers
Jacob

ps: IG was invented by a Frenchman.










From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Sun Mar  9 23:04:00 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 00:04:00 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028871.23782.106337662726753085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following crucial line was dropped by the server from my previous message:

                                                                       [verse]

Readers will no doubt have no trouble restoring it in its proper place.







From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Mon Mar 10 02:16:34 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 07:16:34 +0500
Subject: Lodra rajputs and govardhana
Message-ID: <161227028872.23782.5667463016650455318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
Lodorvaa is a town 16 kms. northwest of Jaisalmer and is of greater antiquity than the
more well-known Jaisalmet which was established only in 1156 A.D. The traditional
view is that Lodra rajputs were of Paramaara rajput descent. 

Lodorvaa has yielded govardhana inscriptions dated to 913 A.D. referring to a Bhadruka.
Govardhana is a pillar enshrined with four images on four sides: brahmaa,
viSNu, ziva and suurya. 
Are there other places in NW India with such govardhanas? Why are such pillars
called govardhana?
Regards. Kalyanaraman.





From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Mon Mar 10 09:23:24 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 10:23:24 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028874.23782.15298407477324408826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Erik Hoogcarspel wrote:
>
>It's still remarkable that someone invented the word "Indo-Germanic" and
>nobody came up with "Indo-Dutch", "Indo-Irish" or "Indo-Italian". If it's a
>nazi-word, then it shouldn't be used anymore. If not then it still is a sign
>of blunt and naieve nationalism. And maybe some people could be tempted to
>jump to conclusions. There have been quite a few German philosophers, like
>f.i. Martin Heidegger, who really believed that the German people were "das
>metafysische Volk" and the true heirs of ancient Greek civilisation. Some of
>those have still followers today. I would rather not be forgiving about it,
>better safe than sorry. Let's drop the word.

I would agree that Indo-Romance is just as good a term as Indo-Germanic. The
point is rather that Indo-Germanic has been round for some time. It is much
older than the Nazi period, and as such not a Nazi term, although the Nazis
probably liked it a lot. Regardless of the imaginings of Martin Heidegger,
and the more or less bizarre nationalist ideas entertained not only by the
Germans but by practically everybody else at the turn of the century, I
still think that the term is not worth the trouble of a sincere discussion.
At best, you will achieve that it becomes re-ideologized. Anyway, it is up
to those people who actually use the term, that is, our German-speaking
brethren, to decide what to do about it. We are all free to choose the term
we want to use, and we should continue to have this freedom. 

Anyway, I have had my say in this discussion. The rest of you may go on
thrashing it out if you like! Best of luck!

Lars Martin 






From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Mon Mar 10 10:32:52 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 10:32:52 +0000
Subject: Urdu TTF
Message-ID: <161227028875.23782.17269908998135157013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mister Pandey!

Thank You so much for providing me with that excellent link.
It's more than I ever expected to get and I absolutely agree with You that
it's a real gem!!
Yours gratefully
Tobias

At 21:33 07.03.1997 GMT, Anshuman Pandey wrote:
>Although I do not know of a standalone TrueType font for Urdu, you might
>want to have a look at Sadaf for Windows, a word-processor which uses two
>Nasta`liq TTF fonts to produce the Urdu output. This program is a real gem
>as it produces the Nasta`liq output as you type it in, ligatures and all.
>The URL for the Sadaf page is:
>
>			http://www.pak.net/link1.htm
>
>A free copy of Sadaf for Windows may be obtained from the above site.
>
>*I am in no way associated with Sadaf for Windows, except for the fact
>that I think it's a real beaut! :-) *
>
>Regards,
>Anshuman Pandey
>University of Washington
>apandey at u.washington.edu
>
>
>
>
>






From pf at cix.co.uk  Mon Mar 10 11:30:00 1997
From: pf at cix.co.uk (pf at cix.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 11:30:00 +0000
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028877.23782.8588710713946538388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am not a linguist, and therefore kept out of this strange debate, which,
finally, seems to address some interesting terminological questions after
all.
 
I looked up Collins Concise Dictionary 3rd ed. 1995 (sorry: not the
Oxfordian one this time: I don't have it at home):

"Germanic. ... 1. a branch of Indo-Eurpoean family of languages that
includes English, Dutch, German, the Scandinavian languages, and Gothic.
...2. Also called: Proto-Germanic. the unrecorded language from which all
these languages developed. ....4. of relating to, or characteristic of te
German language ... 5. (formerly) of the German people".

Could anyone enlighten me about current linguistic views on this?

Peter





From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no  Mon Mar 10 17:04:00 1997
From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 18:04:00 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028880.23782.5980540517316280654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,
        though I, as a German (with lots of Jewish ancestors), do not find
this debate overwhelmingly  amusing, I should like to draw your attention
to two aspects that were not yet mentioned:
1) An ordinary German would not associate the term 'indogermanisch'
particularly with German because the German word for the language and the
people is quite different: 'deutsch'. And the educated know that
'germanisch' includes Dutch, German, the Scandinavian languages and
English.
2) In English you could use the adjective 'Indo-Germanic', but not a
corresponding substantive 'Indo-Germans' or other derivations, whereas in
German we not only have the adjective 'indogermanisch', but in addition the
substantives 'Indogermanen' for the original people speaking the common
language (if both ever existed), 'Indogermanist' for the scholar and
'Indogermanistik' for the discipline which again has a correponding
adjective 'indogermanistisch', all of these being quite smoothly sounding
words. It would be very awkard to replace alle these terms by derivations
from 'indo-europaeisch'; 'Indoeuropaeistik' with its two hiatuses, e.g.,
would sound horribly.

So, please, let us keep the German language as it is. I do not see why
anybody should feel insulted by these terms (which, after all, are only
used in the field of academics). No harm is meant by them any longer, and
that again means that only those who enjoy feeling offended, insist on
doing so. I think it is both wrong and impossible to do what has been
suggested here, namely to burden the use of a word with all its prehistory.
We would probably have to stop talking altogether. It is the intention that
counts, isn't it?

Best wishes,
                        Georg v. Simson







From apandey at u.washington.edu  Tue Mar 11 02:24:43 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 18:24:43 -0800
Subject: CS Utopia updated
Message-ID: <161227028884.23782.9756688754259603421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> The names are:
> adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-PS-11.readme
> adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-PS-11.zip
> adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-TTF-11.readme
> adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-TTF-11.zip

The TrueType and Postscript .zip files are actually found as:

adobe-utopia-font-cs-encoding-TTF-11.zip
adobe-utopia-font-cs-encoding-PS-11.zip

Dominik, perhaps you would want to rename these?

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey








From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk  Mon Mar 10 22:38:11 1997
From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (pgm)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:38:11 +0000
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028881.23782.928519673567075869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The answer to Peter Flugel is that people on this list are
pursuing some agenda of political correctness under the guise
of academic pedantry!

peter moore





From Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au  Mon Mar 10 12:11:39 1997
From: Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au (Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 23:11:39 +1100
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028878.23782.14557789490032203207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:27 7/03/97 GMT, Takao Hayashi wrote:

>By the way, common word numerals for "6" in Indian mathematics and
>astronomy are aGga, Rtu, and rasa, and the word ari and its synonyms are
>very rare.  For example, they do not occur in Varaahamihira's
>PaJcasiddhaantikaa (ca. AD 550), Bhaaskara I's comm. (629) on the
>AaryabhaTiiya, Mahaaviira's GaNitasaarasaMgraha (ca. 850), and Bhaaskara
>II's Liilaavatii (1150), which all utilize bhuutasaMkhyaas in their suutras
>and udaaharaNas.  But their actual use in that sense can be confirmed in
>the following astronomical text, in which ari and ripu are employed for
>"6".

Could this usage in astronomical texts be related to the use of "Ripu" for
the sixth astrological house?  The MS in question is not an astrological
treatise, but was copied for the personal library of Sawai Jai Singh II of
Jaipur, the famous astronomer.




_______________________________________________________________
Adrian Burton                      South and West Asia Centre
Adrian Burton at anu.edu.au   Faculty of Asian Studies
+61-6-279 8241                   Australian National University






From emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr  Tue Mar 11 00:08:36 1997
From: emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr (Emil HERSAK)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 01:08:36 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028882.23782.8224651294010467150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

After all this discussion on Indo-Germanic vs. Indo-European or vice versa, unfortunately I finally could not resist adding a few words - so please excuse me if I am prolonging an already long debate.

First of all, if we could accept Indo-Germanic as a neutral term (and I am not entering the discussion as whether it is or not), the problem seems to be in its very logic. Combined forms such as Indo-Iranian (Indo-Iranic) or even Balto-Slavic are linguistically justified since they do refer to common, or presumable common phases between two language grouping. But in analogy, what about Indo-Germanic? Two extreme spatial ends of a language family? OK. But if "Indo-" is to be taken as a geographic term (to refer to the subcontinent), then the only logical western equivalent is "European", and nothing else. Likewise, this eliminates any  terminological confusion with linguistic constructions such as Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, the Italo-Celtic theory, etc. However, I can accept criticism that I don't like Indo-Germanic because it eliminates from the picture my own "linguistic ancestors", who were most probably (East) European, but not Germanic, unless in a still very hypothetical Germano-Balto-Slavic stage (when Germanic was not yet Germanic). 

Emil Hersak,

Zagreb.








From u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE  Tue Mar 11 07:20:31 1997
From: u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 08:20:31 +0100
Subject: QUERY: BHIMA
Message-ID: <161227028885.23782.15065699825065278097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>....... 
> I may be in error, but this story is not, I think, in the Javanese 
> Mahabharata, but is the frame story of the Navaruci (ed. and tranl. by 
> Prijohoetomo, Nawaruci: Inleiding, Middel-Javaansche prozatekst, vertaling, 
> Groningen, 1934). [see also, Jan Gonda, "Some Notes on the Relation between 
> Syntactic and Metrical Units in a Javanese Kidung, BKI 114 (1958), 
> pp.98-116]. A metrical version is Poerbatjaraka, Dewa-Ruci, in Djawa 20 
> (1940), pp.5-55.
> 
> The language of both of these versions is hardly Old, but rather Middle 
> Javanese, something which itself would militate against the story  being of 
> Indian origin. 
> 
> 
> Max Nihom
> Vienna


THank you very much for your information. My request was on behalf of a 
friend (I myself dont know anything about the Javanese tradition(s).)
I will pass your message on to him.

Ulrike Niklas





From max at newciv.org  Tue Mar 11 16:38:36 1997
From: max at newciv.org (Max)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 08:38:36 -0800
Subject: Bigpaitatachi (was: Indo-Germanic)
Message-ID: <161227028905.23782.9223652081038036155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


This thread about the threatening un-word 'Indo-Germanic'
is treading on for so long that even I dare come out of
the lurker mode with which I hope are some useful remarks
and suggestions:

The chart I have in front of me shows the following language
groups as direct derivations from 'Proto-IE'/'IG' or whatever:

    Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Italic, Illyrian, 
    Albanian, Thracian, Hellenic, Armenian, Anatolian, 
    Indo-Iranian, and Tocharian

Several of these groups are neither European nor Indic and
I doubt very much that members of these ethnic and linguistic
groups would be happy with either IE or IG.

To provide equal opportunity for these minorities I suggest
to form a new word, formed by the initial character
of each these language groups:

 There are many possibilities, of course, but my personal 
favorite is 

             Bigpaitatachi

It has somehow a noble touch to it.

Max

PS: Did anybody ever successfully pronounce the IE equivalent
to 'Indogermanistik' in either German or English?

If so, I have some free cards for the next congress of
the Klingon Language Institute - provided you have the guts 
to stand up in front of the (pseudo) Klingon assembly and
pronounce it in public three times in a row (and survive
it!!)

----------------------------
 Maximilian J. Sandor, Ph.D.

 max at newciv.org
 msandor at jccc.medsch.ucla.edu
 http://www.newciv.org/max/





From u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE  Tue Mar 11 11:09:23 1997
From: u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 12:09:23 +0100
Subject: CS Utopia updated
Message-ID: <161227028887.23782.17541918165043278631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am trying to use CS Utopia for transcribing tamil. Unfortunately, a few 
signs are missing for that purpose: long e (i.e. e with a stroke above), 
long o (i.e. o with a stroke above), r, l, and n each with a stroke below 
(which can be made with the "underline" function, but it s not very 
nice). Would there be a possibility to get these signs made for CS Utopia?

Thanks, ULRIKE.





From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz  Tue Mar 11 11:35:19 1997
From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 12:35:19 +0100
Subject: Conference Announcement
Message-ID: <161227028888.23782.11964060965691421768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please read this announcement and distribute it among your colleagues.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
15th European Conference on Modern South Asian Studies
8?12 September 1998, Charles University, Prague

First announcement                                            February 1997


We would like to invite you to the 15th European Conference on Modern South
Asian Studies which will be held at Charles University in Prague under the
auspices of the Rector of the University as part of the celebrations of the
650th anniversary of the University.

The Conference is organized by the Institute of Indian Studies, Charles
University in cooperation with the Oriental Institute of the Czech Academy
of Sciences, the Institute of International Relations, the Naprstek Museum
of Asian, African and American Cultures and other institutions.

The Conference will be inaugurated on Tuesday, 8 September 1998 at 7 PM, the
sessions will start on Wednesday, 9 September. The final plenary session
will take place on Saturday, 12 September, 9.00 to 12.00 AM.

Registration 

Visit our WWW-page and register through an electronic Registration Form
(http://www.ruk.cuni.cz/~dvorakj/southasia.html) or, if your web-browser
does not support forms, you can download a printable text-version of the
Registration Form, which you can print, fill in and send by "snail-mail" or
fill in and send by e-mail. You are requested to submit the Registration
Form to the Organizing Committee before 30 April 1997.

List of conference panels:

1. The First Century of British Rule in South Asia (Kolff)
2. Regional Development at the End of Empire (Collins)
3. Integration of Princely States/Princes in Post-Colonial India (Fasana)
4. Regional Cooperation in South Asia/ Politic and Economic (Kovar, Zingel, v.d. Geest)
5. Domestic Problems and Foreign Policy in South Asia (Weidemann)
6. Colonialism, German Indology and the Orientalist Predicament (Kulke)
7. Europe and South Asia in the 20th Century (Oesterheld)
8. Rural Development in South Asia (Lerche/Jeffrey, R.)
9. Environment and Water Resources in South Asia (Swain)
10. Democracy in South Asia / Multi-Party System (Komarov)
11. Decision Making at the Local Level (Muller-Boker)
12. Disaggregating the State in South Asia (Blomkvist)
13. Alternative Futures: The Panjab (Samad)
14. Tribal Structures and Tribal Movements (Gautam)
15. Untouchability: Past and Present (Aktor)
16. Ethnicity and the Diaspora (Raj)
17. Cultural Relativism and Human Rights in Islam (Noorani)
18. Human Rights (Madsen)
19. The Emergence of Individualism in South Asia (Tambs-Lyche)
20. Gender Issues and Social Change (Jeffrey, P., Mursheed)
21. Sufi Studies and Early Islam (De Bruyn)
22. Religious Reform Movements in South Asia (Copley/Rustau)
23. Performing Arts (Karpen)
24. Hindu Art and Buddhist Art: Mutual Dependence and Common Legacy (Gail)
25. Linguistics of South Asia (Nespital)
26. Romani linguistics and culture in relation to the country of its origin
(Hubschmannov?)
27. Ancient Indian Texts and Text Interpretation (Vacek, Elisarenkova)
28. The Role of the Mahabharata in South Asia (Sand)
29. Bengali and Bangladeshi Literature (Radice)
30. Modern Tamil Literature: Written and Oral (Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi)
31. Literature (to be specified) (Matringe)


Details concerning accommodation, registration fees etc. are found on our
WWW-page http://www.ruk.cuni.cz/~dvorakj/southasia.html.


The Organizing Committee
                                                                             
Jaroslav Vacek (Chairman)
Jan Marek (General Secretary)
Jan Dvorak (Administrative Secretary)
Jaroslav Holman, Svetislav Kostic, Jindrich Kovar,
Miloslav Krasa, Marketa Prochazkova, Jaroslav Strnad
                                                  
Mailing address
                                                                             
Institute of Indian Studies
Charles University
Celetna? 20
116 42  Praha 1
CZECH REPUBLIC

E-mail: southasia at cuni.cz
WWW: http://www.ruk.cuni.cz/~dvorakj/southasia.html





From tat at quel.stu.neva.ru  Tue Mar 11 23:06:25 1997
From: tat at quel.stu.neva.ru (tat at quel.stu.neva.ru)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 15:06:25 -0800
Subject: devanagary font
Message-ID: <161227028890.23782.9911955330512396137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is it possible to obtain a free copy of True Type devanagari font? I'd be grateful for any
useful information (URL, for instance).

    Yours gratefully, 
  
                               Tattvarthi.

    tat at quel.stu.neva.ru
    





From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Tue Mar 11 17:58:54 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 17:58:54 +0000
Subject: devanagari font
Message-ID: <161227028893.23782.5944743951383468787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear mister Tattvarthi!

There are severeal sites (URL) from where You can download Devanagari True
Type Fonts. Have a look Yourself:

           http://rbhatnagar.ececs.uc.edu:8080/sanskrit/mlist.html
           ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india
           ftp://ftp.ucl.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software
           http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/indian/fonts
           http://www.naidunia.com
           http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides.html

Enjoy the Surf!
Yours


At 13:01 11.03.1997 GMT, tat at quel.stu.neva.ru wrote:
>Is it possible to obtain a free copy of True Type devanagari font? I'd be
grateful for any
>useful information (URL, for instance).
>
>    Yours gratefully, 
>  
>                               Tattvarthi.
>
>    tat at quel.stu.neva.ru
>    
>
>
>

Tobias
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                //OM//
                        SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/
                         SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/
                        SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/
                      MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/
                        OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. Tobias Grote-Beverborg
Theodorstr. 370, 40472 Duesseldorf, Germany
ph/fax: 0049-211-6581306
e-mail: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de
        grotebev at uni-koeln.de
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From rsalomon at u.washington.edu  Wed Mar 12 02:33:48 1997
From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 18:33:48 -0800
Subject: Thomas Young
Message-ID: <161227028899.23782.3945960672363161106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to P. Daniels and W. Bright, eds., The World's Writing
Systems (p. 148), Thomas Young died in 1829.

R. Salomon

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Mark F. Tritsch wrote:

> > First, regardless of whether the term Indo-European can be 
> attributed to Thomas Young, as is sometimes claimed, can anyone give 
> me the birth and death dates of Young.
> 
> Thomas Young, born 1773, major contributions in medicine, physics and 
> egyptology (the last polymath?) - unfortunately I don't know when he 
> died.
> ***************************************************
> 
> Dr. Mark F. Tritsch
> Breslauer Strasse 14 B
> 65203 Wiesbaden
> GERMANY
> 
> Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497
> 
> ***************************************************
> 
> 






From thompson at jlc.net  Tue Mar 11 23:55:20 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 19:55:20 -0400
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028896.23782.650989326167914170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The answer to Peter Flugel is that people on this list are
>pursuing some agenda of political correctness under the guise
>of academic pedantry!
>
>peter moore

I myself wonder about the "agenda" of people who are more disturbed by
political correctness than they are by what Dominique Thillaud eloquently
calls "nazionalism".  It's a matter of personal preference, I guess.

We all know that languages change [*even* one's own, by the way], and
sometimes for poltiical reasons.  American English has not suffered, as far
as I can see, from the disappearance of the "semantically inoffensive" word
"Negro" but I haven't heard or seen anyone use it, except quotatively, in a
very long time.

I apologize to Georg von Simson and others, because I know that this thread
has annoyed them, but to tell the truth sneers at political correctness
annoy me.

In any case, we have learned a little bit more about who we are talking to,
haven't we [a few years ago, by the way, I would have written "whom."  Not
anymore: I'm flexible].

George Thompson











From thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp  Tue Mar 11 13:52:54 1997
From: thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at mail.doshisha.ac.jp)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 22:52:54 +0900
Subject: decipering a colophon
Message-ID: <161227028891.23782.8790432590740964175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At  2:48 PM 97.3.10 +0000, Adrian Burton wrote:
>Could this usage in astronomical texts be related to the use of "Ripu" for
>the sixth astrological house?   The MS in question is not an astrological
>treatise, but was copied for the personal library of Sawai Jai Singh II of
>Jaipur, the famous astronomer.

The association of ripu (or its synonyms) with the number 6 most probably
originated from the concept of 'the six enemies of a man' mentioned before
on this list, while the attributes assigned to the twelve astrological
'houses' in, for example, Varaahamihira's BRhajjaataka (20th adhyaaya on
bhaava) seem to have come from Greek (or Western) astrology. A fairly good
correspondence betweeen the Greek and the Sanskrit attributes of the twelve
houses is known to exist.  Vettius Valens of the second century, for
example, assigned several attributes, such as 'slaves, injury, enmity,
suffering, and weakness,' to the sixth house.  The Indian attribute,
'enemy', for the sixth house seems to be based on one of these, namely,
'enmity'.  

With best,
Hayashi






From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE  Wed Mar 12 00:14:44 1997
From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Mark F. Tritsch)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 01:14:44 +0100
Subject: Dravidian/Uralic
Message-ID: <161227028894.23782.12181404084435180454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> First, regardless of whether the term Indo-European can be 
attributed to Thomas Young, as is sometimes claimed, can anyone give 
me the birth and death dates of Young.

Thomas Young, born 1773, major contributions in medicine, physics and 
egyptology (the last polymath?) - unfortunately I don't know when he 
died.
***************************************************

Dr. Mark F. Tritsch
Breslauer Strasse 14 B
65203 Wiesbaden
GERMANY

Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497

***************************************************





From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Wed Mar 12 02:25:44 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 03:25:44 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028897.23782.977594364159500742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote:

>I myself wonder about the "agenda" of people who are more disturbed by
>political correctness than they are by what Dominique Thillaud eloquently
>calls "nazionalism".  It's a matter of personal preference, I guess.

I frankly do not think there's any agenda on either side. As usual
the two sides are on two different wavelengths and frankly I think
it's hopeless. One side doesn't understand how it is possible that
one is so hung up on a word that is used w/o meaning any harm. The
other side doesn't see how they can't see that it has connotations
which offend (whether they are meant or not)

>We all know that languages change [*even* one's own, by the way], and
>sometimes for poltiical reasons.  American English has not suffered, as far
>as I can see, from the disappearance of the "semantically inoffensive" word
>"Negro" but I haven't heard or seen anyone use it, except quotatively, in a
>very long time.

Well US society is a very diverse one and the feelings of various
communities seem to be taken into account (at least officially).

It's not the same everywhere, especially in more homogeneous societies.

Here's a Belgian experience:

In French the word "juif" is sometimes used as a substitute for
"cheap", as in "quel juif celui-la!". Many users of that word
really do not mean any harm. I could *never* convince a person
who had used that term in front of me (regarding a 3rd person
who was not even Jewish) that I was genuinely hurt by her using
that term. And really she *did* mean nothing by it. And knowing
her rather well, I *knew* she was the last person who would be
afflicted with that kind of thing. I tried to give her a history
lesson, etc. It just didn't click.

And to be fair the case with IG is not exactly parallel with that
of "juif" (used as an adjective) or "nigger", since it doesn't contain
any derogatory term to anyone really. The "resonances" (to use Dominik's
word) of that term are more subtle and harder to perceive. Plus,
it *does* seem to be true that IE *is* much more awkward in German
than IG. That is not a cop out. I was told that even
the Dutch, who have pretty much abandoned "indogermaanse" for
"indoeuropese", still often use "Indogermanen" because "Indoeurope?rs"
sounds so awkward.

Of course there's plenty of pretty offensive stuff I could come up with
with great metrical properties so just because a word is prettier
doesn't mean it should necessarily be used! But if one doesn't *sense* the
resonances of that word (and most German Indoeuropeanists *would*
be desensitized to it, since they'd say it, hear it, or read it one 100
times a day), one will of course wonder "Why should I have to drop a perfectly
good word for one that sounds so awful just because of some imaginary
offense that some guy who's trying to tell me what do says it implies"

Given that it's hopeless, I think we might, like Lars Martin Fosse said,
give it new ideological content or the old ideological content a new life
by arguing so much about it.

In the worst case it could generate defensive feelings among Germans
who watch this thread go by. I mean, nobody likes to be told what they
should do. If on top, it is all perceived as gratuitous German bashing,
the term might acquire a new value that nobody wants to see it acquire.

Basically, I guess what I'm saying is, "Oh, forget it!", and to say this,
I'm adding another long post to the thread from hell.

Cheers
Jacob










From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Wed Mar 12 09:33:51 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 04:33:51 -0500
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028901.23782.10823872793036390709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>American English has not suffered, as far
>as I can see, from the disappearance of the "semantically inoffensive" word
>"Negro" but I haven't heard or seen anyone use it, except quotatively, in a
>very long time.

This past weekend, on Showtime at the Apollo (a tv show broadcast from the
Apollo Theater in Harlem), during the Amateur Contest, one of the
contestants said, when asked what she was going to do, "I'm going to sing
an old Negro Spiritual." The MC, who also probably hasn't heard the word
Negro for awhile, was clearly taken aback, and asked, "you are going to
sing an old [pause, then lots of stress and stretching on the first
syllable] Negro spiritual?" The MC made a face, and looked at the audience
as if the woman was doomed.

Sure enough, as she began to sing (and she wasn't bad - a strong voice in a
quasi-Mahalia Jackson sort of way) the audience almost immediately began to
"boo" loudly so that the rejection horn sounded within 20 secs. of her
beginning. She never had a chance. (N.B. In case you are wondering, she was
herself a negro - I just couldn't say black or afro-american or
african-american there, since those terms were her downfall).

The word Negro has not disappeared. It's been driven into hiding.

Dan Lusthaus
Florida State University







From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Mar 12 10:04:46 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 12:04:46 +0200
Subject: References requested
Message-ID: <161227028902.23782.3062398697032539068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

I am looking for references dealing with the following subjects, on which I
have no expertise, and would very much appreciate any suggestions from the
members of the list.

1. The genre of qawwali in Urdu
2. Critical studies of Indian and Pakistani literature written in English

Thanks in advance,

Ruth Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no







From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu  Thu Mar 13 00:15:36 1997
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 14:15:36 -1000
Subject: Bigpaitatachi (was: Indo-Germanic)
Message-ID: <161227028908.23782.8983348115206296577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Max wrote:

> The chart I have in front of me shows the following language
> groups as direct derivations from 'Proto-IE'/'IG' or whatever:
> 
>     Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Italic, Illyrian, 
>     Albanian, Thracian, Hellenic, Armenian, Anatolian, 
>     Indo-Iranian, and Tocharian
> 
> Several of these groups are neither European nor Indic and
> I doubt very much that members of these ethnic and linguistic
> groups would be happy with either IE or IG.
> 
> To provide equal opportunity for these minorities I suggest
> to form a new word, formed by the initial character
> of each these language groups:
> 
>  There are many possibilities, of course, but my personal 
> favorite is 
> 
>              Bigpaitatachi
> 
> It has somehow a noble touch to it.



But it has 13 letters!

Why not include the "S" from Slavic, 
so it becomes

               Sbigpaitatachi

The "S" is silent.

Best wishes,


Raja.







From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Mar 12 14:35:41 1997
From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 15:35:41 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028904.23782.14422158333654741591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson said on 12-03-97
>I myself wonder about the "agenda" of people who are more disturbed by
>political correctness than they are by what Dominique Thillaud eloquently
>calls "nazionalism".  It's a matter of personal preference, I guess.
>
>We all know that languages change [*even* one's own, by the way], and
>sometimes for poltiical reasons.  American English has not suffered, as far
>as I can see, from the disappearance of the "semantically inoffensive" word
>"Negro" but I haven't heard or seen anyone use it, except quotatively, in a
>very long time.
>
>I apologize to Georg von Simson and others, because I know that this thread
>has annoyed them, but to tell the truth sneers at political correctness
>annoy me.

Well, I did not 'sneer' at political correctness which I believe is in
principle a good thing. But there may be differences of opinion about where
the limits should go (political correctness vs. truth and truthfulness
sometimes creates trouble, for example) and what tactics to follow. I am
sceptical about the hasty and thoughtless banishing of words just because
they have been used in an offensive way by certain groups of language
users. This has often a devastating effect on our languages, making them
poorer without necessity. The recent development of German abounds in
examples (and it is perhaps therefore I react against attempts to abolish
the term 'indo-germanisch' and its derivatives). To mention only one of the
most grotesque ones: Because of the low status of apprentices in society,
it was decided to replace the term 'Lehrling' (apprentice) by
'Auszubildende', lit.'(a person who is) to be educated', a substantivated
gerundive that is difficult to handle and to pronounce. It was, therefore,
immediately replaced by the - from an aesthetical point of view repulsive -
more or less ironically used abbreviation 'Azubi'. The situation of the
apprentices has not changed, of course, but the German language has
suffered a perceptible loss. There were years after the war when the words
'Jude' and 'juedisch' (Jew, Jewish) tended to be tabooed (and serious
attempts were made to replace them), but, fortunately, the words were
conserved and are now politically correct again, whereas 'Zigeuner' (Gipsy)
was banished and replaced by 'Sinti' and 'Roma', making it rather
complicated to talk about them now and confronting scholars writing about
their languages with serious terminological problems. Sure, unambiguously
derogatory terms like 'nigger' have to be avoided, but I cannot see why
'negro' had to be abolished. 'Negro spirituals' have always been in good
repute, and the effect of banning the term has been nicely illustrated by
Dan Lusthaus (whose communication just arrived when I was writing this). I
think we should oppose these desperate attempts to show morally correct
attitudes by changing the vocabulary of our languages. They do not really
help, whereas the damage they do in many cases is quite perceptible (just
read German newspapers nowadays, with their frantic attempts to do justice
to women by creating linguistic monsters like 'Professor/Innen'). What
really helps is to change the use of words, not to abolish them because
they have been misused. C'est le ton qui fait la musique, n'est-ce-pas?

Emil Hersak wrote on 11-03-97:

>First of all, if we could accept Indo-Germanic as a neutral term (and I am
>not entering the >discussion as whether it is or not), the problem seems
>to be in its very logic. Combined forms such >as Indo-Iranian
>(Indo-Iranic) or even Balto-Slavic are linguistically justified since they
>do refer to >common, or presumable common phases between two language
>grouping. But in analogy, what >about Indo-Germanic? Two extreme spatial
>ends of a language family? OK. But if "Indo-" is to be >taken as a
>geographic term (to refer to the subcontinent), then the only logical
>western equivalent >is "European", and nothing else. Likewise, this
>eliminates any  terminological confusion with >linguistic constructions
>such as Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, the Italo-Celtic theory, etc. However,
>I >can accept criticism that I don't like Indo-Germanic because it
>eliminates from the picture my own >"linguistic ancestors", who were most
>probably (East) European, but not Germanic, unless in a >still very
>hypothetical Germano-Balto-Slavic stage (when Germanic was not yet
>Germanic).

But it is only when you start to etymologize the term that it becomes
offensive to you. Nobody who uses the term Anglo-Saxon (first meaning
according to Webster's Dictionary: 'a person whose native language is
English'!) today really thinks of the Angles and Saxons any longer, and the
German scholar who uses the term 'indogermanisch' does not think of Indian
and Germanic in the first place, but of Lithuanian, Greek or Armenian or
whatever are the most exiting languages for him or her. So your logical
argument does not convince, because the term does not lead to any
confusion. It is used in academic contexts only, where everybody knows its
precise extension. I do not think we would coin the term today, but to
demand that the Germans should abolish it because you do not like it, does
not seem very realistic to me.

Best wishes
                        Georg v. Simson









From spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in  Thu Mar 13 00:00:38 1997
From: spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 19:00:38 -0500
Subject: newspaper on microfilm
Message-ID: <161227028917.23782.11474057263835668842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ms. Stark-Wild,

D.K. Agencies can supply you with most of the INDIAN newspapers on 
microfilms as we are already doing for other libraries world-over.
Please let us know as to which range of years of these newspapers you 
are looking for on microforms. As my memory goes "Times of India" is 
available on microform for more than 80 years. They are also working 
on the CD-ROM project, though I don't have the latest of information 
on their success on CD-ROM project.

Regards,
Surya P. Mittal
surya at pobox.com


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
Najafgarh Road               E-mail: dka at pobox.com
New Delhi - 110 059.         E-Mail: custserv at dkagencies.com

           Our Webpage     http://www.dkagencies.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


At 08:00 03/13/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Dear colleagues,
>for reasons of space and also for reasons of conservation the library of 
>the South Asia Institute of the University of Heidelberg is looking for 
>an alternative regarding its stock of daily/weekly newspapers.
>To copy already existing microfilms/microfiches should be less 
>expensive than to have them made from the original issues. Does, 
>therefore, anybody know whether (and where) there are microfilms of the 
>following newspapers? We are especially interested in the last two to 
>three decades.
>
>Bangkok Post
>Bangladesh Times
>Dawn
>Frontier
>Hindu Weekly
>Holiday
>Independent
>Indonesia Times
>Lanka Guardian
>Malaysian Digest
>New Age
>New Wave
>Organiser
>People's Democracy
>Radiance 
>Rising Nepal
>Statesman Weekly
>Straits Times
>Sunday Observer
>Times of India
>Daily Star
>
>I would be most grateful for any help or/and suggestions.
>
>Secondly are there any projects among the major newspapers of South Asia, 
>e.g. The times of India, to make their archives available on CD-rom?
>Many thanks in advance.
>
>Sonja Stark-Wild
>South Asia Institute
>University of Heidelberg
>Library
>Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
>69120 Heidelberg
>Germany
>e-mail: sonja.stark-wild at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
>






From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Wed Mar 12 18:41:43 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 19:41:43 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028907.23782.5349955661817284990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wrote

>I was told that even
>the Dutch, who have pretty much abandoned "indogermaanse" for
>"indoeuropese", still often use "Indogermanen" because "Indoeurope?rs"
>sounds so awkward.

I apologize to all Dutch speakers for butchering the grammar
of the beautiful Dutch tongue (inadvertently)

Of course the "names" of the adjectives should be their stem.
Thus: "indogermaans" or "indoeuropees".

But you would say "indogermaanse talen" or "indoeuropese talen".

The only language that one is entitled to butcher on the net
is of course English. That's the downside of being
an international language :)










From neelisja at u.washington.edu  Thu Mar 13 06:43:32 1997
From: neelisja at u.washington.edu (J. Neelis)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 22:43:32 -0800
Subject: References requested
Message-ID: <161227028911.23782.2522205931412523547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
> 
> I am looking for references dealing with the following subjects, on which I
> have no expertise, and would very much appreciate any suggestions from the
> members of the list.
> 
> 1. The genre of qawwali in Urdu
 
On qawwali:

1. Qureshi, Regula Burckhard. Sufi Music of India and Pakistan: Sound,
Context and Meaning in Qawwali. Cambridge Studies in Ethnomusicology,
Cambridge University Press, 1986

2. Nayyar, Adam. Qawwali. Lok Virsa Research Centre, Islamabad, 1988.

3. I would also suggest the liner notes by Martina Catella and Adam Nayyar
of a CD entitled Qawwali, expression de l'essentiel desir or Qawwali, the
essence of desire featuring Mehr and Sher Ali produced by Musique du
Monde.

I will look for more references in Urdu.

Regards, 
Jason Neelis






From neelisja at u.washington.edu  Thu Mar 13 06:56:16 1997
From: neelisja at u.washington.edu (J. Neelis)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 22:56:16 -0800
Subject: References requested
Message-ID: <161227028913.23782.16578574763883886488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A quick search of my university's library catalog revealed this reference:
 UW Libraries Catalog  @  Wed Mar 12 22:46:06 1997

Document 2
Author:       Muhmand, Abdulmajid bin Sardar Khan.
Title:        Qavvali : Quran o Sunnat aur sulaha-yi ummat ki nazar men /
              Abdulmajid bin Sardar Khan Muhmand.
Pub. Info.:   Aibatabad, Pakistan : Madrasah Anvarulislam ; Lahaur :
              Taqsim kunandgan, Sunni Pablikeshanz, [1985?].
Phy Descript: 112 p. ; 22 cm.
Notes:        In Urdu.
              Includes bibliographical references.
LC Subject:   Music -- Religious-aspects -- Islam.
              Qawwali.
              Music-Sufi. 
           







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Mar 13 04:09:25 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 23:09:25 -0500
Subject: Any other name for arundhatii in Sanskrit?
Message-ID: <161227028910.23782.13167232431502499317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Classical Tamil literature, arundhatii, the wife of vasishtha is referred
to as "caalini" or "caali". Does the Sanskrit tradition have any other name
like this besides arundhatii? Thanks.

S. Palaniappan





From Sonja.Stark-Wild at urz.uni-heidelberg.de  Thu Mar 13 07:55:45 1997
From: Sonja.Stark-Wild at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Sonja Stark-Wild)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 08:55:45 +0100
Subject: newspaper on microfilm
Message-ID: <161227028914.23782.15031514294891303025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
for reasons of space and also for reasons of conservation the library of 
the South Asia Institute of the University of Heidelberg is looking for 
an alternative regarding its stock of daily/weekly newspapers.
To copy already existing microfilms/microfiches should be less 
expensive than to have them made from the original issues. Does, 
therefore, anybody know whether (and where) there are microfilms of the 
following newspapers? We are especially interested in the last two to 
three decades.

Bangkok Post
Bangladesh Times
Dawn
Frontier
Hindu Weekly
Holiday
Independent
Indonesia Times
Lanka Guardian
Malaysian Digest
New Age
New Wave
Organiser
People's Democracy
Radiance 
Rising Nepal
Statesman Weekly
Straits Times
Sunday Observer
Times of India
Daily Star

I would be most grateful for any help or/and suggestions.

Secondly are there any projects among the major newspapers of South Asia, 
e.g. The times of India, to make their archives available on CD-rom?
Many thanks in advance.

Sonja Stark-Wild
South Asia Institute
University of Heidelberg
Library
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
Germany
e-mail: sonja.stark-wild at urz.uni-heidelberg.de







From MOHKAMSING at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl  Thu Mar 13 09:19:29 1997
From: MOHKAMSING at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (mohkamsing)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 10:19:29 +0100
Subject: References requested
Message-ID: <161227028922.23782.1954965495773112423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See also P. Manuel, A Historical Survey of the Urdu Gazal-Song in India, in 
Asian Music 20 (1), 1988-89, pp. 93-113.

Narinder Mohkamsing






From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Thu Mar 13 10:52:45 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 12:52:45 +0200
Subject: Thank you
Message-ID: <161227028916.23782.13478496867466598507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

Thank you very much for your useful and informative replies to my queries
about Qawwalis and Indian Literature in English!  It has been most helpful.

I hope you will excuse me for replying via the net instead of replying to
each of you individually.

Ruth Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no







From jehms at globalxs.nl  Thu Mar 13 14:35:28 1997
From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 15:35:28 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028919.23782.7096974730592868879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Op 12-maa-97 schreef Jacob Baltuch:

>I wrote

>>I was told that even
>>the Dutch, who have pretty much abandoned "indogermaanse" for
>>"indoeuropese", still often use "Indogermanen" because "Indoeurope?rs"
>>sounds so awkward.

>I apologize to all Dutch speakers for butchering the grammar
>of the beautiful Dutch tongue (inadvertently)

>Of course the "names" of the adjectives should be their stem.
>Thus: "indogermaans" or "indoeuropees".

>But you would say "indogermaanse talen" or "indoeuropese talen".

>The only language that one is entitled to butcher on the net
>is of course English. That's the downside of being
>an international language :)

As far as I can remember in Groningen University everybody of the Indology
department used the expression "Indoeuropese talen" and I've no recollection
of having heard someone at Leiden University talking about "Indogermaanse
talen" either. The expression would for a Dutch audience strongly suggest the
exclusion of Anglo-Saxon, Greek and Roman languages.









From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Thu Mar 13 14:57:36 1997
From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 15:57:36 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028920.23782.667848319872525328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Erik Hoogcarspel wrote:

> As far as I can remember in Groningen University everybody of the Indology
> department used the expression "Indoeuropese talen" and I've no recollection
> of having heard someone at Leiden University talking about "Indogermaanse
> talen" either. The expression would for a Dutch audience strongly suggest the
> exclusion of Anglo-Saxon, Greek and Roman languages.


!?
Cf. J. Schrijnen: Handeleiding bij de Studie der Vergelijkende
Indogermaansche Taalwetenschap; Leiden 1917





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Mar 13 21:46:07 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 16:46:07 -0500
Subject: question
Message-ID: <161227028923.23782.5686638182796426610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	Naaraaya.nabha.t.ta uses the expression kalaayaavalii several
times in his famous poem Naaraayaa.niiya.  As far as I can tell, it must
be kalaaya + aavalii, a row/line of kalaaya.  The dictionary meaning of
kalaaya (Apte) is "green peas", (vaa.taa.naa in Marathi).  I wonder if
anyone knows the significance of this expression in the context of
describing the Krishna image in the temple at Guruvaayur?  
	Thanks.
			Madhav Deshpande







From apandey at u.washington.edu  Fri Mar 14 02:42:44 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 18:42:44 -0800
Subject: New Free Devanagari TrueType Font.
Message-ID: <161227028926.23782.14182141047711855566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


This message was posted on alt.humanities.language.sanskrit. It is posted
here as the font may be of use to INDOLOGY members.

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey
University of Washington
apandey at u.washington.edu


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:52:54 +0100
From: Reinhold Kainhofer <rk at cryogen.com>
Newsgroups: humanities.language.sanskrit
Subject: FREE Sanskrit TTF Font

I have created a TrueType Font for Sanskrit, which you can download for
free at the following address:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9145

You will also find further information there.

Sincerely 

Reinhold Kainhofer







From srini at engin.umich.edu  Fri Mar 14 03:25:53 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 22:25:53 -0500
Subject: question
Message-ID: <161227028928.23782.14972928041231326078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	Naaraaya.nabha.t.ta uses the expression kalaayaavalii several
	times in his famous poem Naaraayaa.niiya.  As far as I can tell, 
	it must be kalaaya + aavalii, a row/line of kalaaya.  The dictionary 
	meaning of kalaaya (Apte) is "green peas", (vaa.taa.naa in Marathi).  
	I wonder if anyone knows the significance of this expression in the 
	context of describing the Krishna image in the temple at Guruvaayur?  
		Thanks.
				Madhav Deshpande

S.N.Sastri, in his book S'rimannaaraaya.niiyam, translates kalaaya as
blue lily.

-Srini.





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Mar 14 04:49:43 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 23:49:43 -0500
Subject: star "aardraa" and Tamil calendar
Message-ID: <161227028929.23782.16035317148115951422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In his book, Ananda-Tandava of Siva-Sadanrttamurti (page 31), Kamil Zvelebil
writes, "The star aardraa (lit. 'wet, soft), representing Ziva, was once the
initial star of reckoning in the stellar calendar of the Tamils;..". He does
not cite any reference for this statement. Does anybody know the source for
such a conclusion? Thanks.

S. Palaniappan





From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in  Fri Mar 14 01:12:42 1997
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (Dr. S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 06:12:42 +0500
Subject: question
Message-ID: <161227028925.23782.15121954300915494192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
In Tamil, kaLaa denotes the large bengal currant, carissa carandas; in kannada,
kaLave is a spinous shrub bearing edible black berries of c. carandas. It will
be interesting to know more about these berries; if they were used to make
bead strings...
Regards, kalyanaraman.

At 10:06 PM 3/13/97 GMT, you wrote:
>	Naaraaya.nabha.t.ta uses the expression kalaayaavalii several
>times in his famous poem Naaraayaa.niiya.  As far as I can tell, it must
>be kalaaya + aavalii, a row/line of kalaaya.  The dictionary meaning of
>kalaaya (Apte) is "green peas", (vaa.taa.naa in Marathi).  I wonder if
>anyone knows the significance of this expression in the context of
>describing the Krishna image in the temple at Guruvaayur?  
>	Thanks.
>			Madhav Deshpande
>
>
>
>
>





From rtumkur at ford.com  Fri Mar 14 13:51:37 1997
From: rtumkur at ford.com (rtumkur at ford.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 08:51:37 -0500
Subject: kAlaya in shrImannArAyaNIyam!
Message-ID: <161227028933.23782.12743246519573485202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

>
>
>Not an answer, Madhav, but rather a jumble of notes which might spark some
>relevant idea. 
>
>A verse saying that tripu.ta (Lathyrus sativa) produces lameness occurs in
>the main text of the Bhaavaprakaa"sa, and is an important piece of medical
>history. 
>
>The edition of BP which I have is:
>
>Brahma"sa"nkara Mi"sra and Ruupalaalajii Vai"sya, 2 vols.
>(Varanasi: Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan, 7th edition 1990).
>[Kashi Sanskrit Series vol. 130.]
>
>The verse occurs in vol.1, on p.650, as verse 59 in the
>Dhaanyavarga section of the Bhaavapraka"sanigha.n.tu (the BP's
>appendix on materia medica).
>
>Tripu.ta is sometimes also thought to be the same legume as kalaaya. 
>Nadkarni, however, says that kalaaya is Pisum Arvense, the field pea.  I
>think this is not correct, at least in pre-modern texts, because of the
>etiology of diseases associated with kalaaya/tripu.ta. Kalaaya is
>mentioned in even earlier texts than the BP as a legume that aggravates
>'wind', which often involves symptoms of paralysis (e.g.., ardita, and

	I may be streching things too far. Has this anything to do with
	the vAyu in the guruvAyu with which Shri Narayana Bhattadri is
	connected ? I do know guruvAyu itself, according to myth is 
	through a different derivation.

>other palsies, cramps, and convulsions), and is grouped with or even
>equated with tripu.ta.  It is mentioned in Caraka and Su"sruta.  However I
>cannot yet see an *early* passage actually saying that kalaaya causes
>lameness. 
>
>However, the pattern of etiology and identification with tripu.ta seems to
>point conclusively to kalaaya being Lathyrus sativa, which is well known
>(now) for its implication in the crippling disease of Lathyrism, so well
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>described by Sleeman in his _Rambles and Recollections_, and more recently
>(and entertainingly) by Harold Klawans in his collection of neurological
>case studies entitled _Newton's Madness: further tales of clinical
>madness_ (London, 1990). 
>
>All the best,
>Dominik
>
>--
	I am not sure if this reply is of any relevance except for its
	reference. It is said that Shri Narayana Bhattadri was motivated
	to compose shrImannArAyaNIyam after he was afflicted with a 
	severe form of rheumatism.

	regards,
	ramu





From zysk at is2.nyu.edu  Fri Mar 14 13:58:31 1997
From: zysk at is2.nyu.edu (Kenneth G. Zysk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 08:58:31 -0500
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227028936.23782.3237619746528891463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Dom: just a simply quiry about your comments. What is the Sanskrit for
"lameness" here. I'm thinking of conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis 
(aamavaata), which is definitely a crippling disease, almost endemic to
parts of India. 

Ken


On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> 
> Not an answer, Madhav, but rather a jumble of notes which might spark some
> relevant idea. 
> 
> A verse saying that tripu.ta (Lathyrus sativa) produces lameness occurs in
> the main text of the Bhaavaprakaa"sa, and is an important piece of medical
> history. 
> 
> The edition of BP which I have is:
> 
> Brahma"sa"nkara Mi"sra and Ruupalaalajii Vai"sya, 2 vols.
> (Varanasi: Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan, 7th edition 1990).
> [Kashi Sanskrit Series vol. 130.]
> 
> The verse occurs in vol.1, on p.650, as verse 59 in the
> Dhaanyavarga section of the Bhaavapraka"sanigha.n.tu (the BP's
> appendix on materia medica).
> 
> Tripu.ta is sometimes also thought to be the same legume as kalaaya. 
> Nadkarni, however, says that kalaaya is Pisum Arvense, the field pea.  I
> think this is not correct, at least in pre-modern texts, because of the
> etiology of diseases associated with kalaaya/tripu.ta. Kalaaya is
> mentioned in even earlier texts than the BP as a legume that aggravates
> 'wind', which often involves symptoms of paralysis (e.g.., ardita, and
> other palsies, cramps, and convulsions), and is grouped with or even
> equated with tripu.ta.  It is mentioned in Caraka and Su"sruta.  However I
> cannot yet see an *early* passage actually saying that kalaaya causes
> lameness. 
> 
> However, the pattern of etiology and identification with tripu.ta seems to
> point conclusively to kalaaya being Lathyrus sativa, which is well known
> (now) for its implication in the crippling disease of Lathyrism, so well
> described by Sleeman in his _Rambles and Recollections_, and more recently
> (and entertainingly) by Harold Klawans in his collection of neurological
> case studies entitled _Newton's Madness: further tales of clinical
> madness_ (London, 1990). 
> 
> All the best,
> Dominik
> 
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
> email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
> <URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545
> 
> 
> 
> 






From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at  Fri Mar 14 08:18:46 1997
From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 09:18:46 +0100
Subject: Indo-Germanic
Message-ID: <161227028930.23782.5792747959738213738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Erik Hoogcarspel wrote:
>
>> As far as I can remember in Groningen University everybody of the Indology
>> department used the expression "Indoeuropese talen" and I've no recollection
>> of having heard someone at Leiden University talking about "Indogermaanse
>> talen" either. The expression would for a Dutch audience strongly suggest the
>> exclusion of Anglo-Saxon, Greek and Roman languages.
>

Well, I can't speak for Groningen, but in the seventies the expression was 
certainly occasionally used in Leiden. 


Max Nihom
Vienna






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Fri Mar 14 16:57:55 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 10:57:55 -0600
Subject: Dravidian/Altaic
Message-ID: <161227028939.23782.141412466680622598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Someone in Indology posted a few days ago. The title was 
Dravidian/Altaic. The document was not in ASCII characters.
May be a WORD or Word Perpect -wordprocessing one.

I am interested in reading the contents. Can s/he post it
again please in English?

Thanks,
N. ganesan






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Mar 14 11:27:52 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 11:27:52 +0000
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227028932.23782.5526124092002554713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Not an answer, Madhav, but rather a jumble of notes which might spark some
relevant idea. 

A verse saying that tripu.ta (Lathyrus sativa) produces lameness occurs in
the main text of the Bhaavaprakaa"sa, and is an important piece of medical
history. 

The edition of BP which I have is:

Brahma"sa"nkara Mi"sra and Ruupalaalajii Vai"sya, 2 vols.
(Varanasi: Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan, 7th edition 1990).
[Kashi Sanskrit Series vol. 130.]

The verse occurs in vol.1, on p.650, as verse 59 in the
Dhaanyavarga section of the Bhaavapraka"sanigha.n.tu (the BP's
appendix on materia medica).

Tripu.ta is sometimes also thought to be the same legume as kalaaya. 
Nadkarni, however, says that kalaaya is Pisum Arvense, the field pea.  I
think this is not correct, at least in pre-modern texts, because of the
etiology of diseases associated with kalaaya/tripu.ta. Kalaaya is
mentioned in even earlier texts than the BP as a legume that aggravates
'wind', which often involves symptoms of paralysis (e.g.., ardita, and
other palsies, cramps, and convulsions), and is grouped with or even
equated with tripu.ta.  It is mentioned in Caraka and Su"sruta.  However I
cannot yet see an *early* passage actually saying that kalaaya causes
lameness. 

However, the pattern of etiology and identification with tripu.ta seems to
point conclusively to kalaaya being Lathyrus sativa, which is well known
(now) for its implication in the crippling disease of Lathyrism, so well
described by Sleeman in his _Rambles and Recollections_, and more recently
(and entertainingly) by Harold Klawans in his collection of neurological
case studies entitled _Newton's Madness: further tales of clinical
madness_ (London, 1990). 

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From apandey at u.washington.edu  Fri Mar 14 21:16:12 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 13:16:12 -0800
Subject: New Free Devanagari TrueType Font.
Message-ID: <161227028948.23782.6339152576448356940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Tobias Grote-Beverborg wrote:

> It's always a risk to download unfamiliar files and it reminds me to be very
> careful about recommendations.
> I usually only recommend files which I have downloaded myself.

I had made the recommendation about the font after testing it myself and
after running a virus-scan on it (even though it is not an executable and
has a rare chance of carrying a virus or being a trojan horse). The
font worked and printed out fine for me. If I had experienced problems
with the font, note that I would have surely made an announcement of
the problems in the inital message. The link mentioned in the message I
forwarded from the newsgroup from where I received it is the home site of
the font's author.

I think Mr Grote-Beverborg misunderstood Mr. Fosse's

> Anyway I hope You don't suffer a major breakdown of Your system, please,
> keep me informed about further development concerning the *RKSanskrit TTF*.
> If You want, I can attach my version of *RKSanskrit* and You could try out
> whether it works better.

Fonts cannot cause a major breakdown of a system. But that does not count
out a breakdown of one's sanity... If you have questions regarding the
origin and development of the font, please contact the author, Reinhold
Kainhofer at rk at cryogen.com . I'm sure he can answer most if not all of
your questions.

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey
University of Washington
apandey at u.washington.edu










From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Fri Mar 14 19:54:10 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 13:54:10 -0600
Subject: TAMIL/JAPANESE
Message-ID: <161227028947.23782.15159209815732093021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


March 14, 1997

After reading N. S. Raja's query, I did some search.

Karl H. Menges 1) Dravidian and Altaic,
Anthropos, v. 72, 1977, p.129-179

2) Dravidian and Altaic,
Cental Asiatic Jl., Wien, 19, 1975, p.202-265

V. Dybo, V. M. Illich-Svitych and the development of
Uralic and Dravidian linguistics,
Explorations in Language Macrofamilies, Bochum, 1989, p. 20-29

 ***************************************************************************
   Tamil & Japanese
  ------------------

The early poems of Japanese literature and Tamil Sangam poetry have several
similarities. Especially, the tamil akam poems describing "interior landscape"
(See A. K. Ramanujan's aesthetic translations) and Japanese
love poems. 

Sam Hamill 1) Only companion: Japanese poems of love
and longing, Shambala/ Random House. 1992 160 p.  and 
2)Kenneth Rexroth,  Love poems from the
Japanese. Shambala, 1994, 129 p.


When I read the above translations from Japanese and Tamil sangam poetry 
in original or AKR's translations, striking parallels emerge.

(early Japanese poetry 5-7th century called Manyoshu and tamil sangam 
age, 1st century b.c. to 3 century a.d.)

Also, see irAma. kurunAtan, cangkap pATalum jappAniyak kavitaiyum,
kalaignan patippakam, Madras, 1986, 112 p.


Nowadays, lot of tiny poems modelled on Japanese Haiku are being written
in Tamil. After all, Tamil is eminently suitable to write poetry
with "uLLuRai poruL" and "iRaicci". eg.,

ce. centil kumAr, nanaiyAta nilA (haikku), ceyyARu, 1990,
tamizanpan, cUriyap piRaikaL: jappAniya haikku vaTiva kavitaikaL,
narmatA, patippkam. 1985, 83 p.
etc.,

I hear that Shuzo Matsunaga has translated kuRaL into Japanese.
Do you have the bibliographic details? I want to buy a copy.
kuRaL metre in tamil has only 7 word units in it.

Susumu Ono and A. Shanmugadas (Jaffna), Worldview and rituals
among Japanese and Tamils. Tokyo, Japan, 1985, 220 p.

Susumu Ono 1) Nihongo Izen (Influence on Japanese from Tamil language)
Tokyo: Iwanami Shoten, 1987, 346 p.

2) Nihongo to Tamirugo, 1981 Tokyo (Japanese and Tamil)

3) Sound correspondences between Tamil and Japanese,
Tokyo, 1980.

4) The genealogy of the Japanese language: Tamil and Japanese.
Geno Kenkyu, Kyoto, v. 95, 1989, p.32-63

Mark Hudson, Tamil and Japanese: Ono's Yayoi theory.
Asian and Pacific Quarterly of Cultural and Social affairs,
vol.24, no. 1, 1992, p.48-64

K. V. Zvelebil, Tamil and Japanese - Are they related?
The hypothesis of Susumu Ono.
Bull. of School of Or. & African studies, 48, 1, 1985, p. 116-120

Shichiro Murayama, Nihongo: Tamirugo Kigensetsu hihan.
Tokyo, 1982
(Japanese and tamil: Comparative grammar)

Pon. Kothandaraman, A comparative study of Tamil and Japanese,
Int. Inst. of Tamil Studies, Madras, 1994

Bodhi Daruma, founder of Zen,  (Note the 'u' letter. This is unlike 
Bodhi Dharma of Sanskrit) He hailed from Kanchipuram
and is popular in Japan. Tamil also would make the name
Pothi Tharumar. (No consonant clusters.)

Japanese alphabets are arranged almost like Tamil (tamiz neTungkaNakku).

Lokesh Chandra, Tamil sound sequence of the Japanese alphabet,
Int. J. of Dravidian Linguistics, 1988, v.17 53-58.

Nowadays, Shu Hikosaka, Takanobu Takahashi and a host of others
have contributed to the growth of Tamil studies.

Can someone from Japan give me the details of Tirukkural translation
in Japanese. 
Thanks,
N. Ganesan

************************************************************************






From bpj at netg.se  Fri Mar 14 13:00:13 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 15:00:13 +0200
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227028935.23782.9128076343668184924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:40 14.3.1997 +0000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>
>Tripu.ta is sometimes also thought to be the same legume as kalaaya.
>Nadkarni, however, says that kalaaya is Pisum Arvense, the field pea.  I
>think this is not correct, at least in pre-modern texts, because of the
>etiology of diseases associated with kalaaya/tripu.ta. Kalaaya is
>mentioned in even earlier texts than the BP as a legume that aggravates
>'wind', which often involves symptoms of paralysis (e.g.., ardita, and
>other palsies, cramps, and convulsions), and is grouped with or even
>equated with tripu.ta.  It is mentioned in Caraka and Su"sruta.  However I
>cannot yet see an *early* passage actually saying that kalaaya causes
>lameness.
>

Most interesting? Was cerebral palsy known/and or described in Indic
medicine? (I take for granted there were some of us everywhere at all
times, but did the physicians recognize the diagnosis? After all it wasn't
until a hundred years ago in the west.)

Regards

Philip <bpj at netg.se> :-)=@ (Still rolling!)







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Fri Mar 14 16:26:23 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 17:26:23 +0100
Subject: New Free Devanagari TrueType Font.
Message-ID: <161227028938.23782.3831801634627769176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:54 14.03.97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>This message was posted on alt.humanities.language.sanskrit. It is posted
>here as the font may be of use to INDOLOGY members.
>
>Regards,
>Anshuman Pandey
>University of Washington
>apandey at u.washington.edu
>
....
>
>I have created a TrueType Font for Sanskrit, which you can download for
>free at the following address:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9145
>
>You will also find further information there.
>

I note of warning! I downloaded and installed this font, and then tried to
read the doc-files into Word6 for Windows. Since then, all letters are
printed more or less above each other. In order to get a readable text on or
off screen, I have to define a distance of 4 points between each letter.
Something is wrong, and I have not been able to solve the problem yet.
Anyone out there witha similar problem?

Lars Martin Fosse






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Mar 14 18:09:31 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 18:09:31 +0000
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227028941.23782.4392562606516578730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless Knowledge] wrote:
> Most interesting? Was cerebral palsy known/and or described in Indic
> medicine? (I take for granted there were some of us everywhere at all
> times, but did the physicians recognize the diagnosis? After all it wasn't
> until a hundred years ago in the west.)

Well, Su"sruta's Nidaanasthaana 1 describes a range of "wind" diseases
some of which may well have been coincident with what we call cerebral
palsy today.  The trouble is that the aetiological categories,
terminology, and explanatory models are so different from contemporary
bio-medical discourse that it is often not possible to equate syndromes or
nosological entities with modern categories. 

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Mar 14 18:17:04 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 18:17:04 +0000
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227028942.23782.15214301339187294221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Kenneth G. Zysk wrote:

> Dom: just a simply quiry about your comments. What is the Sanskrit for
> "lameness" here. I'm thinking of conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis 
> (aamavaata), which is definitely a crippling disease, almost endemic to
> parts of India. 

   kha~ja  (sakthika.n.daraa"srita.h vikalagatilak.sa.no vaataroga.h ...)

and/or 

   pa"ngu  (yadi ka.tisthito vaato dvayo.r api sakthno.h ka.n.daraa
            aak.sipet tadaa pa"ngutva.m jaayate)

Definitions from the Ayurvediya Mahako"sa.

The expert on all this is Mike Miles (Mike, are you listening to this at
the moment?), who is writing a history of disability in India as a PhD
thesis at the Univ. of Birmingham right now.

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Fri Mar 14 18:56:23 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 18:56:23 +0000
Subject: New Free Devanagari TrueType Font.
Message-ID: <161227028944.23782.6040846370032497159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>A note of warning! I downloaded and installed this font, and then tried to
>read the doc-files into Word6 for Windows. Since then, all letters are
>printed more or less above each other. In order to get a readable text on or
>off screen, I have to define a distance of 4 points between each letter.
>Something is wrong, and I have not been able to solve the problem yet.
>Anyone out there witha similar problem?
>
>Lars Martin Fosse

Dear Lars Martin Fosse and Members of the List!
I was rather shocked when I read Your message as I had also downloaded the
Fonts today. I didn't have the problems You had, but I faced some problems
during the unzip-process. Actually I didn't manage to unzip it on my PC but
when I was at our Institute I downloaded the files on the Institute's PC and
didn't have any problem to unzip it there.

Well, I transferred the Fonts on my PC just now and after reading Your
message checked whether I have a similar problem. 

No, I don't have any problem. All letters appear correct on the screen and
all other Fonts aren't influenced. Even in the same document everything
appears to work properly.

It's always a risk to download unfamiliar files and it reminds me to be very
careful about recommendations.
I usually only recommend files which I have downloaded myself.

Anyway I hope You don't suffer a major breakdown of Your system, please,
keep me informed about further development concerning the *RKSanskrit TTF*.
If You want, I can attach my version of *RKSanskrit* and You could try out
whether it works better.
Good luck

Tobias
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                //OM//
                        SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/
                         SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/
                        SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/
                      MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/
                        OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. Tobias Grote-Beverborg
Theodorstr. 370, 40472 Duesseldorf, Germany
ph/fax: 0049-211-6581306
e-mail: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de
        grotebev at uni-koeln.de
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Mar 14 19:29:10 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 19:29:10 +0000
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227028945.23782.15965240623637435297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, I mean

  kha~nja

And I've checked, Mike Miles isn't listening to INDOLOGY just now. 

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From wgw at dnai.com  Sat Mar 15 19:13:13 1997
From: wgw at dnai.com (wgw at dnai.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 11:13:13 -0800
Subject: email addresses
Message-ID: <161227028959.23782.555785968536718534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I need email addresses for the following scholars, most of whom should be
subscribers or known to subscribers of this list. 
Thanks,

Bill

Judith Salzman
Cal Poly University
San Luis Obispo, Ca  	

Rahul Peter Das
Martin Luther Universitat 
Halle-Wintenberg
Dorotheenring 525451 Quickborn, Germany 

Guy Beck
Loyola University
6363 St. Charles Ave.
New Orleans, LA  70118	

Amar Nath Chatterjee
E4/21 A Model Town
Delhi 110009, India  	

Thomas J. Hopkins
Franklin And Marshall College
323 N.West End Ave.
Lancaster, Pa  17603

Kathleen Erndl
Dept. Of Religion, 
FSU
Tallahassee, FL  32306/1029	

E. Burke Rocheford
Middlebury College
Middlebury , Vermont  05753	

Charles White 
1911 R.Street NW Apt. 101
Washinton , DC  10027	
		
		
		
		
		

 	


William G Wall, Ph.D.
Institute for Vaisnava Studies
Graduate Theological Union
PO Box 11216
Berkeley CA 94712
(510) 849-8280 (office)

email: wgw at dnai.com
Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se








From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sat Mar 15 16:36:23 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 11:36:23 -0500
Subject: Question on Patanjali
Message-ID: <161227028955.23782.6390018219974037165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would appreciate if anybody could give any biographical information about
Patanjali, the author of Mahaabhaashya. The only thing I know is that he
lived at the time of Pushyamitra Sunga. Do we know anything about his
parents, lineage, teacher, teacher's lineage, place of birth, etc.? Also, is
there any etymological explanation for the word Patanjali?

Thanks.

S. Palaniappan





From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu  Sat Mar 15 19:38:26 1997
From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 11:38:26 -0800
Subject: Question on Patanjali
Message-ID: <161227028961.23782.5345600983867303015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One "folk" etymology my dad told me once was that pA.nini was once
meditating under a tree, and a snake fell into his hands. Hence pat- (to
fall) and anjali- (in pA.nni's hands). I guess this has to do with the
common association of patanjali with snakes...
Prof. Aklujkar gave an interesting paper on the history of mahAbhaSya
studies in India at the Skt. conference in B'lore. In it he mentioned
something about folk etymologies of "patanjali". Hopefully he can give you
a better answer.

Cheers!
Chandan Narayan









From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sat Mar 15 18:41:30 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 13:41:30 -0500
Subject: Questions on the name kApya/kApeya in upaniSads
Message-ID: <161227028958.23782.5016061483723736837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Given below is an interesting passage in bRhadAraNyaka upaniSad.

      Then uddAlaka AruNi asked him, 'yAjJavalkya', said he, 'we lived in the
house         of pataJcala kApya among the madras, studying the scriptures on
the sacrifices. He had a wife who was possessed by a gandharva. We asked him,
"Who are you?" He said, " I am kabandha AtharvaNa." He said to pataJcala
kApya and those who studied the scriptures on the sacrifices, "Do you know, O
kApya that thread by which this world , the other world and all beings are
held together?"...(bRhadAraNyaka upaniSad, III.7.1, S. Radhakrishnan's
translation)

Does the name kApya have any relation to the 'son of kApI'   mentioned in the
line of teachers bRhadAraNyaka upaniSad, VI.5.1, or 'zaunaka kApeya'
mentioned in chAndogya upaniShad, IV.3.5?  zankara in his commentary on
vedAnta sUtras, says that kApeya was a brahmin and cites a passage in a
brAhmaNa which says, 'the kApeyas made caitraratah perform that sacrifice'
(tAND. brA.XX, 12, 5).(Source: George Thibaut's translation) 

Who were these kApyas or kApeyas? Were they Vedic Aryans, Vedic non-Aryans or
non-Vedic Aryans? Did they live in the gandhAra region? What is the meaning
of 'was possessed by a gandharva (gandharva-gRhItA)? Was the wife of kApya a
gandharva woman?  

Significantly, uddAlaka AruNi also brings up gandhAra in another context. In
chAndogya upaniShad, when he is teaching his son zvetaketu, he says, "Just as
my dear, one might lead a person away from the gandhAras with his eyes
bandaged and abandon him in a place where there are no human beings, and just
as that person would towards the east or the north or the south or the west,
'I have been led here with my eyes bandaged, I have been left here with my
eyes bandaged. And as, if one released his bandage and told him, 'In that
direction are the gandhAras, go in that direction; thereupon being informed
and capable of judgment, he would by asking (his way) from village to village
arrive at gandhara; in exactly the same manner does one here who has a
teacher know"I shall remain here only so long as I shall not be released
(from ignorance). Then I shall reach perfection."'(chAndogya upaniShad,
VI.14.1-2 from S. Radhakrishnan's S. Radhakrishnan's translation)

Thus uddAlaka AruNi seems to have been familiar with gandhAra.

tolkAppiyan, the author of the earliest extant grammar in Tamil, has been
said to be of Aryan origin by some Tamil scholars like tevaneyap pAvANar. The
name tolkAppiyan is derived from a family name kAppiyan. I wonder if there is
any connection between the Tamil tolkAppiyan and Sanskrit kApya or kApeya.

I would appreciate any explanation or comments regarding the Sanskrit
material. Thanks.


S. Palaniappan











From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA  Sat Mar 15 19:37:24 1997
From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 14:37:24 -0500
Subject: Re [reply]: email addresses
Message-ID: <161227028962.23782.15273190692372722834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



For those who are seeking email addresses of colleagues:

If you have access to a web browser, you can use the address

	http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/cdemello/univ.html

to get to a link called "College and University Home Pages."  It includes
universities from the whole world, indexed alphabetically and by country. 


Sushil Mittal
International Institute of India Studies, and
World Heritage Press

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Judith Salzman		jsaltzma at harp.aix.calpoly.edu
>
> Rahul Peter Das
> 
> Guy Beck			gbeck at beta.loyno.edu
>
> Amar Nath Chatterjee
> 
> Thomas J. Hopkins
> 
> Kathleen Erndl		kerndl at mailer.fsu.edu
> 
> E. Burke Rocheford
> 
> Charles White 

----------------------------------------------------------------------






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Mar 15 22:02:24 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 17:02:24 -0500
Subject: Question on Patanjali
Message-ID: <161227028964.23782.9487475570495645829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	We hardly know anything authentically about the personal life of
the author of the Mahaabhaa.sya.  There is a 17th century poem from a
south Indian poet Raamabhadra Diik.sita by the title Patanjalicaritam. 
That is probably the only detailed narrative, besides some stories in the
Haracaritacintaama.ni of Jayaratha.  All other info about Patanjali, his
date, place, etc. is extracted from the Mbh, and has been discussed and
debated for a long time.  You may find some of this discussion in the
collected works of R.G. Bhandarkar, Staal's Reader on the Sanskrit
Grammarians, and in the two books: 

	India in the Time of Patanjali, by B.N. Puri

	Patanjalikaaliin Bhaarat (Hindi), by Prabhu Dayal Agnihotri

			Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

> I would appreciate if anybody could give any biographical information about
> Patanjali, the author of Mahaabhaashya. The only thing I know is that he
> lived at the time of Pushyamitra Sunga. Do we know anything about his
> parents, lineage, teacher, teacher's lineage, place of birth, etc.? Also, is
> there any etymological explanation for the word Patanjali?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> S. Palaniappan
> 
> 






From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Sat Mar 15 22:48:17 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 17:48:17 -0500
Subject: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227028950.23782.16507215637016636651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Does anybody know some information about a research project 
 done on Gitagovinda in IGNCA by Kapila Vatsyayan et al  ?
 I wrote there but got no reply so far. I'd appreciate some names of
 scholars who were involved in it (anyone of them residing in Calcutta?).
 I have some vague information that it was basically a research on GG's
 representation in art, dance... Were some textual studies of GG itself a
 part of it?
  Thanks for any info (which I'll be able to receive till 22.March)
 
 
  

Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________
Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007

e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
(valid till June 97 approx.) 






From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Sat Mar 15 22:49:06 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 17:49:06 -0500
Subject: Q: Translations of Kavya-commentaries?
Message-ID: <161227028953.23782.7481313810914445205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Out of mere curiosity:
 So far, I have come across only Mallinatha's Ghantapatha having been
 translated into English (only the comm.on first six cantos of Kir., by
 Roodbergen).  I'd like to know which other kavya-commentaries have been
 translated/summarized/studied in English (etc.) 
   Thank you for any reference.
 
 And also: I have the impression that despite various critical editions of
 kavya-texts there were very few attempts on critical establishing of the
 text of the commentaries on the edited kavyas.  Often only one manuscript
 of a commentary printed had been examined. Which kavya-comms have been
 critically edited? 
 


Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________
Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007

e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
(valid till June 97 approx.) 






From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Sat Mar 15 22:49:44 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 17:49:44 -0500
Subject: Q: B.Stoler Miller's materials on Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227028952.23782.8445867018392991875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Dear members, 
 
 Barbara Stoler Miller in her edition-cum-translation of Gitagovinda from
 1977 states that the translation has been "established with the aid of a
 complete word index to the work". It is however not a part of the book,
 which the author says is for the sake of "vrksharakshana". SHe also
 mentions that she had recorded songs of the poem in different musical
 verions. Does anyone have a clue whether the wordindex and the recordings
 have survived and where ?
 
 Thanks, 
 


Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________
Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007

e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
(valid till June 97 approx.) 






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sat Mar 15 17:36:45 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 18:36:45 +0100
Subject: New Free Devanagari TrueType Font.
Message-ID: <161227028956.23782.16202374625298812308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I refer to my former mails concerning these fonts and the doc-files that
came with them. I have solved the problem, after some heartwrenching hours,
and send the solution on to the net just in case someone else has a similar
problem. 

What happened was that the doc-files that came with the fonts somehow
trashed my fonts in Winword6 when I tried to print them, giving the curious
effect that letters printed on top of each other both on screen and on the
printer. The problem is solved by reinstalling the fonts by means of the
control panel. (You remove them and then reinstall them using the control
panel. You don't have to delete them from the disk, only remove them from
the list of installed fonts). 

I have no explanation for how this happened. It may be due to a software
collision peculiar to my machine, which means that the rest of you may not
have to worry unduly.

Anyway, good luck. Try the cuneiform font and see how you colleagues react
when they get their first cuneiform fax!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse








From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Mar 16 05:45:10 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 00:45:10 -0500
Subject: Question on Patanjali
Message-ID: <161227028965.23782.5579438235788987894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-03-15 14:52:03 EST, you write:

<< Subj:	Re: Question on Patanjali
 Date:	97-03-15 14:52:03 EST
 From:	cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan)
 Sender:	indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
 Reply-to:	indology at liverpool.ac.uk
 To:	indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Members of the list)
 
 One "folk" etymology my dad told me once was that pA.nini was once
 meditating under a tree, and a snake fell into his hands. Hence pat- (to
 fall) and anjali- (in pA.nni's hands). I guess this has to do with the
 common association of patanjali with snakes...
 Prof. Aklujkar gave an interesting paper on the history of mahAbhaSya
 studies in India at the Skt. conference in B'lore. In it he mentioned
 something about folk etymologies of "patanjali". Hopefully he can give you
 a better answer.
 
 Cheers!
 Chandan Narayan >>

Dear Mr. Narayan, 

Thank you for your information. Your information led me to look up Zvelebil's
book "Ananda-tANDava of ziva-sadAnRttamUrti". In discussing the legend of
pataJjali at Chidambaram, he footnotes the following in connection with the
name. "Etymologized traditionally as pata 'to fall' + aJjali 'gesture of
folded hands in greeting'; allusion to a legend according to which the great
Rsi atri and his wife had prayed to viSNu to obtain AdizeSa as their child;
when, however, zeSa appeared in the folded hands (aJjali) of the woman
(fulfilling her wish), she let him fall (pat-), so frightened she was."

Regards.

S. Palaniappan







From phijag at zelacom.com  Sun Mar 16 11:51:29 1997
From: phijag at zelacom.com (phijag at zelacom.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 06:51:29 -0500
Subject: email addresses
Message-ID: <161227028967.23782.2942154289829538426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bill,
Judy can be reached at: SavNavArch at aol.com
John

>I need email addresses for the following scholars, most of whom should be
>subscribers or known to subscribers of this list. 
>Thanks,
>
>Bill
>
>Judith Salzman
>Cal Poly University
>San Luis Obispo, Ca  	
>
>Rahul Peter Das
>Martin Luther Universitat 
>Halle-Wintenberg
>Dorotheenring 525451 Quickborn, Germany 
>
>Guy Beck
>Loyola University
>6363 St. Charles Ave.
>New Orleans, LA  70118	
>
>Amar Nath Chatterjee
>E4/21 A Model Town
>Delhi 110009, India  	
>
>Thomas J. Hopkins
>Franklin And Marshall College
>323 N.West End Ave.
>Lancaster, Pa  17603
>
>Kathleen Erndl
>Dept. Of Religion, 
>FSU
>Tallahassee, FL  32306/1029	
>
>E. Burke Rocheford
>Middlebury College
>Middlebury , Vermont  05753	
>
>Charles White 
>1911 R.Street NW Apt. 101
>Washinton , DC  10027	
>		
>		
>		
>		
>		
>
> 	
>
>
>William G Wall, Ph.D.
>Institute for Vaisnava Studies
>Graduate Theological Union
>PO Box 11216
>Berkeley CA 94712
>(510) 849-8280 (office)
>
>email: wgw at dnai.com
>Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se
>
>
>
>
>






From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Sun Mar 16 19:06:08 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 11:06:08 -0800
Subject: Questions on the name kApya/kApeya in upaniSads
Message-ID: <161227028972.23782.9797437559969042275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

[..]

> 
> Who were these kApyas or kApeyas? Were they Vedic Aryans, Vedic non-Aryans or
> non-Vedic Aryans? Did they live in the gandhAra region? What is the meaning
> of 'was possessed by a gandharva (gandharva-gRhItA)? Was the wife of kApya a
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> gandharva woman?  
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The text seems to indicate an actual possession of a woman by a non-human
spirit. There are other references in the upanishads where a wife or a
daughter of a sacrificer is possessed by a gandharva. And the gandharva
gives out a specific name, e.g. kabandha AtharvaNa, which is obviously not
the name of the woman herself. 

While on the subject of upanishads and women, I have another question. Who
was the first translator of the upanishads who said that Gargi Vacaknavi
was Yajnavalkya's wife? In the upanishad, Yajnavalkya's wives are called
Maitreyi and Katayayani. There is absolutely no indication that Gargi is
also a wife of Yajnavalkya. Whoever made Gargi Yajnavalkya's wife seems
to have succeeded immensely. I am getting tired of finding books in  
English (written by authors who should really know better) reiterate that
Gargi was Yajnavalkya's wife. Some authors further confuse themselves and
their readers by identifying Gargi with Maitreyi, which seems to be a
classic example of a double error. Or is there any reference elsewhere in
the Satapatha Brahmana that makes this identification? 

> 
> Thus uddAlaka AruNi seems to have been familiar with gandhAra.

Patrick Olivelle's recent translation of the upanishads has a very nice
introduction, with ample references, tracing the geographical connections
of the various upanishadic teachers. 

> 
> tolkAppiyan, the author of the earliest extant grammar in Tamil, has been
> said to be of Aryan origin by some Tamil scholars like tevaneyap pAvANar. The
> name tolkAppiyan is derived from a family name kAppiyan. I wonder if there is
> any connection between the Tamil tolkAppiyan and Sanskrit kApya or kApeya.
> 

There is a minor gotra called kapi, the first three rishis being Angirasa,
Amahiva and Aurukshaya, whose members are mostly found in southern India.
Is there a connection between this gotra and the kApeyas or tolkAppiyan?

S. Vidyasankar






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Mar 16 16:50:05 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 11:50:05 -0500
Subject: AraGgara' and bees
Message-ID: <161227028968.23782.2686388301240286468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Rig Veda X.106.10 the word AraGgara' seems to be used to refer to bees. Is
this usage common in later Sanskrit? Thanks.

S. Palaniappan  





From jagat at polyinter.com  Sun Mar 16 18:31:38 1997
From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 13:31:38 -0500
Subject: pranava in the samhitas.
Message-ID: <161227028969.23782.9813642587186703544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi folks,

I am trying to find some references in the Pancaratra Agamas. I am looking
for statements to the effect that women and sudras are not (or are)
permitted to receive initiation, pronounce the sacred pranava or other seed
mantras, whether they can chant the eight-letter mantra with or without the
addition of the svaha, pha.t, va.sa.t, etc., whether they are eligible for
the panca-samskaras.

The following Agamas are not available to me. If someone to whom they are
available could kindly confirm or deny the validity of the following
information, I would greatly appreciate it. Important verses with references
and (if really significant) transliteration are needed.

[I am sorry to be asking such a lot all at once. A lot of these texts are
not available even by interlibrary loan. If anyone knows where these are
available in libraries, please let me know. If anyone can send photocopies
of relevant pages, a million additional thanks.]

(1) Pauskara Samhita : (page 227, edition?), 123-146a. Use of mantras by
sudras and women. What does it say on this subject? 

(2) Isvara Samhita : pp. 442-448; 559-587.

(3) Parama Samhita (GOS, vol 86): Chapters 27-28. p.215 (vv.16-27) : A sudra
may wear sacred thread but only during worship. 'The rites for sudreas
generally proceed along tantric lines, without the use of the bija mantra,
whereas for ksatriyas and vaisyas the rituals are Vedic. (4.21). Sudras,
women of good birth, character and qualities are admitted (7.24).

(4) Satvata Samhita. After diksa any caste may use the mantras (2.1-12) but
in certain vratas non-brahmins do without mantras (chj. 8); women, elderly
people and youngsters may be eligible for ekaneka diksa (19.1-7).

(5) Bharadvaja Samhita 1.12-20. Any profession or caste eligible for prapatti.

(6) Visvamitra Smhita 3.17-26. Women and sudras may be candidates for
dvijatva. Alternative diksa rites in cases of women and sudras (3.27; 9.762-73).

(7) Parasara Samhita. (only available in Telugu script apparently) 3.78ff.
Rules for female prapannas, including necessity for pancasamskaras, 3.108ff
for sudras. Prerequisites for initiation. Discussion of pancasamskaras in
chapter 1.

(8) Brhadbrahma Samhita. A lot about initiation and elements of
pancasamskara. Anything about women and sudras?

(9) Markanedeya Samhita. Talks about pancasamskara not being necessary for
Bhagavatas (12.4-6). 14.36, svayam diksa (for all?).

(10) Visnutilaka Samhita. 3.490-511, special duties of widows, sannyasins
and brahmacaris. 1.65, panca samskara named only. 4.154. Mantrayaga may be
performed by anyone who has pancasamskara.

(11) Sandilya Samhita. 3.20-26. Purification of sudras by service, devotion
and tapas. Diksa for non-dvija. 2.15-42. Proper conduct of sudras, women,
etc. ii.7.1-26. Generall rules of conduct for women. Sudras. Low caste ways
to become pure. Non Vedic people are ineligible for diksa.

KoTi-daNDavan-naty-ante. 






       	Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D.
1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0
       (819) 322-3382, 322-6146






From cssetzer at mum.edu  Sun Mar 16 20:23:21 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 14:23:21 -0600
Subject: pranava in the samhitas.
Message-ID: <161227028974.23782.10656417817170276382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe that the largest collection of Pancaratra Agama reference
materials in the world,  even surpassing Madras, is in the Cleveland public
library, Cleveland, OH, USA. Some time quite long ago, I think about the
1930's, this library somehow got a large endowment for this type (Vedic,
etc.?) of materials, and it has continued to increase ever since. H. Daniel
Smith who spent some 20 or 30 years uncovering/collecting Pancaratra Agamas
throughout south India sent his (entire?) collection to this library. (He
relates the story that many of the very rare texts he collected were
literally about to be used for "firewood," by poor families in villages, as
he walked in the door and purchased them.) A small part of the collection
is documented and summarized by several publications of Daniel Smith, one
of which is "The Smith Agama Collection: Sanskrit Books and Manuscripts
Relating to Pancaratra Studies, a Descriptive Catalog." This is published
by the Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs at Syracuse
University, NY, USA. All of the references that you have listed below are
contained in this catalog and are supposed to be in the Cleveland library.
There are also parts of the Parasara Samhita in Devanagari manuscript, In
addition to full text in Telegu. I have a copy of parts of a lot of these,
but it would be rather difficult to find the sections you wish based on
your location references. My time is quite over scheduled now, but if you
cannot get your information from any other source I will try to help. I
strongly suggest that you take a trip to Cleveland, though, because that
should have everything you desire. Please let me know if you are able to go
there and what you think.

PS A small subset of this material is also available at the University of
Iowa library, by the incredibly gracious donation of H. Daniel Smith. I
helped to arrange this and also have a copy myself, along with full text of
a few Agamas. (This is about 2500 to 3000 pages of Dr. Smith's manuscripts
and photocopies from the Agamas, containing all references he was able to
find within Pancaratra Agamas concerning Prathishta. Many of these are hand
copied manuscripts not available anywhere else.) You can contact Ed
Shreeves, directory of special collections at the University of Iowa
Library, or Dr. Fred Smith in the Asian Studies(?) department, if you
happen to go through Iowa City.

Claude Setzer,  cssetzer at mum.edu


----------
> From: Jan Brzezinski <jagat at polyinter.com>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: pranava in the samhitas.
> Date: Sunday, March 16, 1997 12:38 PM
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> I am trying to find some references in the Pancaratra Agamas. I am
looking
> for statements to the effect that women and sudras are not (or are)
> permitted to receive initiation, pronounce the sacred pranava or other
seed
> mantras, whether they can chant the eight-letter mantra with or without
the
> addition of the svaha, pha.t, va.sa.t, etc., whether they are eligible
for
> the panca-samskaras.
> 
> The following Agamas are not available to me. If someone to whom they are
> available could kindly confirm or deny the validity of the following
> information, I would greatly appreciate it. Important verses with
references
> and (if really significant) transliteration are needed.
> 
> [I am sorry to be asking such a lot all at once. A lot of these texts are
> not available even by interlibrary loan. If anyone knows where these are
> available in libraries, please let me know. If anyone can send
photocopies
> of relevant pages, a million additional thanks.]
> 
> (1) Pauskara Samhita : (page 227, edition?), 123-146a. Use of mantras by
> sudras and women. What does it say on this subject? 
> 
> (2) Isvara Samhita : pp. 442-448; 559-587.
> 
> (3) Parama Samhita (GOS, vol 86): Chapters 27-28. p.215 (vv.16-27) : A
sudra
> may wear sacred thread but only during worship. 'The rites for sudreas
> generally proceed along tantric lines, without the use of the bija
mantra,
> whereas for ksatriyas and vaisyas the rituals are Vedic. (4.21). Sudras,
> women of good birth, character and qualities are admitted (7.24).
> 
> (4) Satvata Samhita. After diksa any caste may use the mantras (2.1-12)
but
> in certain vratas non-brahmins do without mantras (chj. 8); women,
elderly
> people and youngsters may be eligible for ekaneka diksa (19.1-7).
> 
> (5) Bharadvaja Samhita 1.12-20. Any profession or caste eligible for
prapatti.
> 
> (6) Visvamitra Smhita 3.17-26. Women and sudras may be candidates for
> dvijatva. Alternative diksa rites in cases of women and sudras (3.27;
9.762-73).
> 
> (7) Parasara Samhita. (only available in Telugu script apparently)
3.78ff.
> Rules for female prapannas, including necessity for pancasamskaras,
3.108ff
> for sudras. Prerequisites for initiation. Discussion of pancasamskaras in
> chapter 1.
> 
> (8) Brhadbrahma Samhita. A lot about initiation and elements of
> pancasamskara. Anything about women and sudras?
> 
> (9) Markanedeya Samhita. Talks about pancasamskara not being necessary
for
> Bhagavatas (12.4-6). 14.36, svayam diksa (for all?).
> 
> (10) Visnutilaka Samhita. 3.490-511, special duties of widows, sannyasins
> and brahmacaris. 1.65, panca samskara named only. 4.154. Mantrayaga may
be
> performed by anyone who has pancasamskara.
> 
> (11) Sandilya Samhita. 3.20-26. Purification of sudras by service,
devotion
> and tapas. Diksa for non-dvija. 2.15-42. Proper conduct of sudras, women,
> etc. ii.7.1-26. Generall rules of conduct for women. Sudras. Low caste
ways
> to become pure. Non Vedic people are ineligible for diksa.
> 
> KoTi-daNDavan-naty-ante. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>        	Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D.
> 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0
>        (819) 322-3382, 322-6146
> 
> 





From jagat at polyinter.com  Sun Mar 16 22:51:17 1997
From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan K. Brzezinski)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 16:51:17 -0600
Subject: question
Message-ID: <161227028980.23782.16868256627879818829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I wonder if
> anyone knows the significance of this expression in the context of
> describing the Krishna image in the temple at Guruvaayur?  
> 	Thanks.
> 			Madhav Deshpande
> 
A field of peas in the winter is as blue as a field of mustard is 
yellow. Is that not an image of the colour of Krishna. I have never 
heard this image being used in Sanskrit poetry, which seems to have a 
knack for working every cliched metaphor to death.

Jan Brzezinski





From deck at div.harvard.edu  Sun Mar 16 21:53:20 1997
From: deck at div.harvard.edu (deck at div.harvard.edu)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 16:53:20 -0500
Subject: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227028976.23782.10126059444221777867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The person at IGNCA who last told me about the Gitagovinda multimedia
project was Neena Ranjan. I would suggest writing, calling, or emailing
her. Don't have the email number right here, though.
Diana Eck







From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sun Mar 16 18:30:55 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 18:30:55 +0000
Subject: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227028971.23782.9143580240629245546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I saw the IGNCA's Gitagovinda project a few years ago in Delhi.  It was a
multimedia computer presentation of some nice illustrated manuscripts of
the text, along with choices permitting the text to be heard/sung.  When I
saw it it was already a nice presentation, though nascent.  I shall be in
Delhi next month at IGNCA, and can say more when I get back in May.  

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From ljaks at pacificnet.net  Mon Mar 17 04:47:52 1997
From: ljaks at pacificnet.net (ljaks at pacificnet.net)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 20:47:52 -0800
Subject: "Protestant"
Message-ID: <161227028981.23782.5120961608701376661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi Noel,

This may not help, but the only thing that comes to mind immediately (and
this is under the influence of Bacardi, Beaulieu Vinyardss, and Wild
Turkey), is that  Agehananda Bharati had something to say about this in
LIGHT ON.... and TANTRIC TRADITION.  Possibly OCHRE ROBE.  Perhaps in an
introduction.  Something to do with most of the itinerany Hindu speakers,
especially those that come Westward preach nothing but Protestant Christian
doctrine.

Hey.  How are you?  Great to hear from you.
Lowell


Visit our Home Page at http://www.pacificnet.net/~ljaks/
Visit the CSFA Home Page at http://www.pacificnet.net/~ljaks/csfa.html

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not
warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of
resistance?....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time
with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is its natural manure."

                                -- Thomas Jefferson to William Smith







From nsalmond at ccs.carleton.ca  Mon Mar 17 02:26:52 1997
From: nsalmond at ccs.carleton.ca (Noel Salmond)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 21:26:52 -0500
Subject: "Protestant"
Message-ID: <161227028978.23782.14290194834991269998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I find that both Rammmohun Roy or Dayananda Sarasvati are frequently
referred to as the "Martin Luther of India."  Gananath Obeyesekere and
Richard Gombrich have used the term "Protestant Buddhism" to refer to
features of Theravaada Buddhism in Sri Lanka of the past century or so. R.
Neufeldt has referred to the thought of M.G. Ranade as "Protestant Hinduism."

Is there a literature on the applicability of the heuristic epithet
"Protestant" to some modern movements in the Indian religions? I am aware,
of course, of Max Weber but can anyone direct me to commentary on the
recent use of this category, or would anyone care to comment on its
usefulness?

With thanks

Noel Salmond
Carleton University





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Mon Mar 17 04:49:46 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 23:49:46 -0500
Subject: "Protestant"
Message-ID: <161227028983.23782.8540160842304559960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think Ambedkar's neo-Buddhist movement can be classified as a
quintessential protestant movement. So may also be the movement of Sri
Narayana Guru of Kerala. 

The movement of Ramalinga aTikaL of Tamilnadu (1823-1874) can also be
classified as protestant even though one can see it as following the medeival
protestant movements of the Tamil Siddhas. For details, you can see "The
Mission and Message of Ramalinga Swamy" by T. Dayanandan Francis, 1990,
Motilal Banarsidass Publishers.

Regards.

S. Palaniappan





From dmenon at pacific.net.sg  Mon Mar 17 01:31:21 1997
From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 09:31:21 +0800
Subject: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227028977.23782.7265482882777016076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:20 PM 3/15/97 GMT, Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit wrote:
> Does anybody know some information about a research project 
> done on Gitagovinda in IGNCA by Kapila Vatsyayan et al  ?
> I wrote there but got no reply so far. I'd appreciate some names of
> scholars who were involved in it (anyone of them residing in Calcutta?).
> I have some vague information that it was basically a research on GG's
> representation in art, dance... Were some textual studies of GG itself a
> part of it?
>  Thanks for any info (which I'll be able to receive till 22.March)
> 
> 
You may want to contact the following person. I believe that he was/is the
main person involved in the project.

Ranjit Makkuni
ignca at doe.ernet.in
makkuni.parc at xerox.com

Regards...Das






From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk  Mon Mar 17 09:50:31 1997
From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 09:50:31 +0000
Subject: IMPORTANT administration information
Message-ID: <161227028984.23782.11675992080844276908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are several important aspects of using this list which *ALL* members
need to be aware of. I have posted this information several times.
However, many of you just seem to ignore it. As a result keeping the list
running is taking more and more time. I'm not an Indologist and my site
has little if any research/teaching interest in this area. We run the
list simply as a favour (in particular to Dominik) and get no renumeration.
I find it difficult to justify running the list when I have to spend about
30 minutes a day sorting out problems which people could have fully or
partially resolved themselves.

Phew got that off my chest!

Here are 2 recent postings from me which you should take careful note of.

A) From: Chris Wooff <C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk>
To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: How posting works
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:10:16 +0000 (GMT)

Can I again remind all subscribers that you *must* post from the
address at which you subscribed. To protect you from unsolicited
email we only allow Indology subscribers to post. In this context 
the list processing software decides if you are a subscriber by
looking for the address you are posting from (ie what's in your
From: field) in its list of subscribers.

In the last few days there has been a deluge of attempted postings
which have failed for the above reason. In the early days I did
help people who had this problem and we sorted most instamces. 
If you have recently hit this problem then please email me c/o 
indology-request at liv.ac.uk . Simply trying again won't work!

B) From: Chris Wooff <C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk>
To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Administrivia - please read
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:07:14 +0000 (GMT)

We are currently in the process of changing list servers from listproc to listse
rv. At 
the moment there is a shadow version of the Indology list of subscribers under 
listserv. This is there for us test various things. Therefore, at the present time
the real version of the list is the one managed by listproc. This has several 
consequences:

1) You need to advise potential subscribers to use the listproc address. We're 
starting to see new users trying to subscribe via listserv - this won't get them
 any 
email at the present time.

2) Any change in subscription options need to be sent to listproc.

3) Signoff requests must go to listproc. Again, we're seeing existing members of
 the 
list using the listserv address. A signoff to listserv will remove you from the 
shadow 
but won't stop any emails.





From customerservice at aaanetserv.com  Mon Mar 17 15:15:25 1997
From: customerservice at aaanetserv.com (Steve Lombardi)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 10:15:25 -0500
Subject: The US translation market and YOU
Message-ID: <161227028991.23782.12523829976590498917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is of interest only to translators <> English.
-------------------
How big is the US translation market?
How many Agencies operate in this market?
What size are the Agencies in US?

How can I increase my prices without losing my current customers?
How can I approach the biggest and richest translation market in the world, if I don't live in the USA?
What is the price paid by US agencies for my language combination?

You find an answer to all the above questions at:

http://www.aaanetserv.com

At the site you can prepare your professional resume, checking that ALL the information the US agencies are looking for is included, in a short format.
You can also post your resume as your home page in a translator database, for a small annual fee.  Basic registration in the database is free.
You can purchase sets of mailing labels of 500 agencies to whom you can mail your resume, or, if you prefer, you can have the resume faxed by AAANetServ directly.

Best regards,

Steven Lombardi
Customer Service Manager










From sohail at u.washington.edu  Mon Mar 17 18:48:22 1997
From: sohail at u.washington.edu (Naseem Hines)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 10:48:22 -0800
Subject: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227028998.23782.14155096421252596237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many schools of Dance express the themes contained within the GG. Please
check the repertoire of Odissi and Kathak dance forms. I am sorry, I do
not have additional information. You may call upon the Odissi dance shcool
which is organized by guru Kelucharan Mohapatra for details to see if
textual studies are/ were part of the preparation for the art performance. 
Also check the various arts organizations affiliated with the Government
of India such as All India Radio based in Delhi and other programs related
with Dilli Doordarshan. Goodluck.
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit wrote:

>  Does anybody know some information about a research project 
>  done on Gitagovinda in IGNCA by Kapila Vatsyayan et al  ?
>  I wrote there but got no reply so far. I'd appreciate some names of
>  scholars who were involved in it (anyone of them residing in Calcutta?).
>  I have some vague information that it was basically a research on GG's
>  representation in art, dance... Were some textual studies of GG itself a
>  part of it?
>   Thanks for any info (which I'll be able to receive till 22.March)
>  
>  
>   
> 
> Jakub Cejka
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
> Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007
> 
> e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
> (valid till June 97 approx.) 
> 
> 
> 






From athr at loc.gov  Mon Mar 17 16:00:43 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 11:00:43 -0500
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227028993.23782.6435093408138180936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

About Lathyrus and lathyrism:

Lathyrus as I recall is a famine crop raised in drought and consumed when
nothing else will grow, only to be used when the alternative is
starvation, because of the known danger not only of paralysis but of gross
permanent twisting of the limbs.  I read at least a decade ago that an
Indian researcher had developed a way of cooking it that neutralised its
dangers.  Coincidentally I noticed in the catalog of the great British
seed company Thompson and Morgan a few days ago that they are offering
several species of Lathyrus as ornamental plants.  This reminds me I
should write to suggest to them they include a warning not to sample the
pods out of curiosity.


Allen W. Thrasher

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.






From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu  Mon Mar 17 11:47:28 1997
From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 11:47:28 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) CRSI: conference on religion in south india
Message-ID: <161227029002.23782.10310346225879535702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
CALL FOR PAPERS - CONFERENCE ON RELIGION IN SOUTH INDIA

"South Indian Religious Traditions in the Diaspora"
University of Toronto
Thursday evening June 12 through Sunday noon June 15, 1997

This year's workshop will focus on South Indian religious traditions 
in the diaspora: both Hindu and non-Hindu traditions, represented in 
both early and later diasporic communities. Thus papers may address 
issues from Hinduism in Bali or South Africa, Indian Judaism in 
Israel, Indian Islam in the Gulf states, to South Indian 
Christianity in the United States. 

Possible questions for papers and discussion include: 

--What factors led to the immigration of South Indian religious
communities? How has their residence in the host culture shaped 
religious beliefs, practices, and identities? 
--What differences do historical contexts of immigration make to the 
ways in which these religious communities have taken root and 
interacted with the cultures in which they are planted (i.e., 
differences between recent post-colonial migration and earlier 
migrations of indentured laborers or merchants during the colonial 
period)?
--To what extent can we see the current Tamil diaspora, for example,
as continuous with, rather than different from, earlier migrations 
of South Indians to Mysore, Sri Lanka, Delhi, Bombay, Bangalore, or
Calcutta?
--What are the main features of diasporic South Indian rituals,
priesthood, organization, temple building, publications, media 
events, and links with kin and linguistic communities in India?
--To what extent have particular kinds of cultural performance taken 
on greater salience abroad than they had/have in South India? 
--Is the distinction "South Indian" relevant in the diaspora? Do 
various Indian diasporic experiences across geographic and religious 
boundaries have enough in common to speak about the phenomenon as a 
category of experience? 
--How have South Indian groups of Muslims, Christians, and Jews who 
have migrated out of South India established bonds with their wider 
religious communities? 

One afternoon of the workshop will be devoted to pedagogical issues of
teaching these diasporic religious traditions and issues of teaching 
South Indian/Indian religious traditions, when a significant 
proportion of our students are Indian American. Toronto also provides
workshop participants with numerous possibilities of site visits to 
temples and mosques, which we may choose to do together in small 
groups and discuss our experiences in a pedagogical framework.

The Conference on Religion in South India seeks to provide a forum 
for new and exploratory scholarship and (particularly this year) 
discussions of pedagogy in a more small-scale and leisurely context 
than is possible at large scholarly conferences. Participants make 
forty-minute presentations followed by thirty minutes of discussion. 
Ample time is provided during the workshop for unstructured 
discussions. 

One-page proposals for presentations should be sent by May 1 to Paul
Courtright, CRSI, Department of Religion, Emory University, Atlanta, 
GA  30322. Fax: (404) 727-7597; relpbc at emory.edu. Paul is out of 
the country until March 23. Until then, feel free to contact Joyce
Flueckiger: reljbf at emory.edu; (404) 727-4642. Our Toronto point 
person is Paul Younger: youngerp at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca  Phone: 
(519) 794-3897. 

The workshop will be held at Victoria University of the University of
Toronto and is cosponsored by the Department for the Study of 
Religion, chaired by Jane McAuliffe, of the University of Toronto. 
Accommodations at the university are estimated to be U.S. $175 
(including breakfast), dependent on the number of participants. 
Further details and registration materials will be sent in April.






------------------------
Lance Nelson
Religious Studies
University of San Diego
lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu





From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Mon Mar 17 10:19:49 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 12:19:49 +0200
Subject: Thank you
Message-ID: <161227028985.23782.8841518137395913816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,

Thank you again for further references which you sent in response to my
request.

Ruth Schmidt







From jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu  Mon Mar 17 18:57:26 1997
From: jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu (Jim Hartzell)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 13:57:26 -0500
Subject: films
Message-ID: <161227028996.23782.18300579383576241435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Geoffrey Samuel:
In August 1994 you kindly posted to INdology a list of Documentary
Films and Videos on South Asian Religion.  Do you have an updated list
you might post again?  Or do you now have a web page where this
list is accessible?
Jim Hartzell, Columbia U.





From magier at columbia.edu  Mon Mar 17 19:22:55 1997
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 14:22:55 -0500
Subject: films
Message-ID: <161227028999.23782.16104988252978924839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Dear Geoffrey Samuel:
> In August 1994 you kindly posted to INdology a list of Documentary
> Films and Videos on South Asian Religion.  Do you have an updated list
> you might post again?  Or do you now have a web page where this
> list is accessible?
> Jim Hartzell, Columbia U.
> 

Yes, please let me know as well, so that I can update the link to it
from the South Asian Bibliographies section of SARAI (South Asia
Resource Access on the Internet).  Thanks.  David Magier - SARAI





From efb3 at columbia.edu  Mon Mar 17 19:28:23 1997
From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 14:28:23 -0500
Subject: nak.satras
Message-ID: <161227029001.23782.11300177198236398584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Can any of the astronomers out there kindly tell me:

1) Which nak.satra the vernal equinox presently occurs in?

2) Which nak'satra the pit.rpak.sa in the waning half of Bhaadrapadaa
occurs in (and how many weeks after the summer solstice does this take
place)?

Thanks,   Edwin Bryant    Columbia U.






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Mon Mar 17 14:33:14 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 14:33:14 +0000
Subject: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227028990.23782.1059409015188272674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Diana L. Eck wrote:

> The person at IGNCA who last told me about the Gitagovinda multimedia
> project was Neena Ranjan. I would suggest writing, calling, or emailing
> her. Don't have the email number right here, though.

"Neena Ranjan (IGNCA)" <ranjan at ignca.ernet.in>

but I've never had any response to email to her at this address.

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From tat at quel.stu.neva.ru  Mon Mar 17 23:35:50 1997
From: tat at quel.stu.neva.ru (tat at quel.stu.neva.ru)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 15:35:50 -0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227028987.23782.5314885534781239843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,

A friend of mine is interested in Adhyatma-Ramayana and he would like to know whether
it is possible to reach any electronic resources on this text via  Internet.  I shall  be  very 
grateful to anybody who will help him.

Sincerely Yours, 

                          Tattvarthi.       tat at quel.stu.neva.ru





From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi  Mon Mar 17 16:06:54 1997
From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 16:06:54 +0000
Subject: email addresses
Message-ID: <161227028988.23782.8763691813191965932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

About a weak ago somebody said that Halle University cannot be reached 
through e-mail and now William G Wall has asked about the address of 
R.P.Das. To both: he has recently obtained a connection and can be 
reached through

das at indologie.uni-halle.de

Klaus Karttunen






From mlangley at brinet.com  Mon Mar 17 21:45:39 1997
From: mlangley at brinet.com (Max Langley)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 16:45:39 -0500
Subject: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227029005.23782.18071699909668671612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

List members in North America might may find information on themes in the
Gita Govinda from the kathak school and company centered around Chitresh
Das. Chitresh's organization is closely associated with the Ali Akbar
College of Music in San Rafael, CA. 

The internet address for Chitresh Das is: 

http://www.emruz.com/kathak/dance1.html

Ali Akbar Khan College of Music may be reached at:

http://pomo.nbn.com/home/aacm


Max Langley

----------
> From: Naseem Hines <sohail at u.washington.edu>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Q: IGNCA - Gitagovinda 
> Date: Monday, March 17, 1997 2:21 PM
> 
> Many schools of Dance express the themes contained within the GG. Please
> check the repertoire of Odissi and Kathak dance forms. I am sorry, I do
> not have additional information. You may call upon the Odissi dance
shcool
> which is organized by guru Kelucharan Mohapatra for details to see if
> textual studies are/ were part of the preparation for the art
performance. 
> Also check the various arts organizations affiliated with the Government
> of India such as All India Radio based in Delhi and other programs
related
> with Dilli Doordarshan. Goodluck.
> On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit wrote:
> 
> >  Does anybody know some information about a research project 
> >  done on Gitagovinda in IGNCA by Kapila Vatsyayan et al  ?
> >  I wrote there but got no reply so far. I'd appreciate some names of
> >  scholars who were involved in it (anyone of them residing in
Calcutta?).
> >  I have some vague information that it was basically a research on
GG's
> >  representation in art, dance... Were some textual studies of GG
itself a
> >  part of it?
> >   Thanks for any info (which I'll be able to receive till 22.March)
> >  
> >  
> >   
> > 
> > Jakub Cejka
> >
__________________________________________________________________________
____
> > Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
> > Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007
> > 
> > e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
> > (valid till June 97 approx.) 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 





From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Mon Mar 17 18:08:14 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 18:08:14 +0000
Subject: Adhyatma-Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227028995.23782.14560766744486896765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mister Tattvarthi!

I don't know whether that particular Adhyatma-Ramayana is available on the
net but I would like to recommend you to visit the homepage of our Institute
for Indology and Tamil Studies (IITS) at Cologne University, Germany.
There are many links to various E-text-files which you'll enjoy to surf.
Yours,
Tobias

At 12:52 17.03.1997 GMT, tat at quel.stu.neva.ru wrote:

>A friend of mine is interested in Adhyatma-Ramayana and he would like to
know whether
>it is possible to reach any electronic resources on this text via
Internet.  I shall  be  very 
>grateful to anybody who will help him.
>
>Sincerely Yours, 
>
>                          Tattvarthi.       tat at quel.stu.neva.ru
>
>
>






From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Tue Mar 18 01:08:43 1997
From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 19:08:43 -0600
Subject: nak.satras
Message-ID: <161227029007.23782.8313116943589116160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This year the vernal equinox occurs in aa;sle.sa nak.satra, and the
pit.rpak.sa begins this year on Sept 17 (Bhaadrapada k.r.s.na pratipadaa,
in Uttara Bhaadrapadaa nak.satra. Thanks goes to my trusty Kaalnir.nay
Marathi calendar.

Fred Smith

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Edwin F Bryant wrote:

> 
> Can any of the astronomers out there kindly tell me:
> 
> 1) Which nak.satra the vernal equinox presently occurs in?
> 
> 2) Which nak'satra the pit.rpak.sa in the waning half of Bhaadrapadaa
> occurs in (and how many weeks after the summer solstice does this take
> place)?
> 
> Thanks,   Edwin Bryant    Columbia U.
> 
> 






From mgansten at sbbs.se  Mon Mar 17 21:20:49 1997
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 22:20:49 +0100
Subject: nak.satras
Message-ID: <161227029004.23782.16281497289220637375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Edwin wrote:

>Can any of the astronomers out there kindly tell me:
>
>1) Which nak.satra the vernal equinox presently occurs in?

There is some disagreement on the exact value of the ayanaa.m'sa (the
difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs), but I think everyone
-- every Indian jyotishin, that is -- agrees that the vernal equinox (0
degrees tropical Aries) falls somewhere in the beginning of
Uttarabhadra(pada). Using Lahiri's value, adopted by the official Calendar
Committee some decades back, the one coming up in three days' time will be
at 6 deg 10 min 49 sec in Pisces, meaning 2 deg 50 min 49 sec into Uttarabhadra.

I've no idea about the pit.rpak.sa, I'm afraid.

Martin Gansten






From joe at sfbooks.com  Tue Mar 18 14:26:48 1997
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 08:26:48 -0600
Subject: humanities.language.sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227029020.23782.5299582514156223161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some days ago, Anshuman Pandey wrote in an otherwise helpful forwarding note...

>This message was posted on alt.humanities.language.sanskrit.

Please note.  This is a Usenet newsgroup (like soc.history.ancient and
sci.archaeology that I never shut up about), and its correct name is
humanities.language.sanskrit - no "alt", which would be in a different part
of Usenet.  (Sad but true:  "alt" is more widely available than
"humanities", on Usenet.)

For an introduction to Usenet, I recommend going to

http://cs1.presby.edu/~jtbell/usenet/

which is the Web site of a guy who spends a LOT of time advising newcomers
to Usenet and who writes very clearly.  For my somewhat more specific
introduction (directed to soc.history.ancient), feel free to e-mail me, but
it isn't as good as Jon Bell's.  I also have a good deal of specific
information on how to convince your local Usenet news administrator to
carry the humanities groups, which I wrote for would-be readers of
humanities.classics but which should also apply to this group.

humanities.language.sanskrit was founded by some Sanskrit students who
carried on an introductory course in the language there, and also discussed
particular philological problems of interest to them (much like this list's
philological discussions if less erudite).  Broader Indological or
linguistic discussion was not welcome there but one could get answers to
specific Sanskrit-related questions (I redirected a few there and they got
results).  I believe Shrisha Rao, the person who spearheaded the
newsgroup's founding, is now on this mailing list; he can be more
informative than I and correct any mistakes.  The people who posted to that
newsgroup eventually vanished from it (as best I can tell) in favour of a
mailing list.  The last time I visited, some new people were trying to
start things up again.  I'm sure you can review past postings on the group
via DejaNews:

http://www.dejanews.com/forms/dnsetfilter_exp.html

will take you directly to a page where you can specify which newsgroup you
want and enter "humanities.language.sanskrit" in particular.

I'm very glad to see that Anshuman Pandey is reading the group, and hope
others from this list are too, or will start.  When last I was there some
weeks ago, there was *very* little traffic (at the absolute most, thirty
messages per week), so I doubt it would take a great deal of time.  Please
feel free to contact me if you want more information or the above-mentioned
documents, although I should emphasise that I never have read
humanities.language.sanskrit consistently and can't tell you a lot more
about it in particular than I already have.

Joe Bernstein
joe at sfbooks.com







From mgansten at sbbs.se  Tue Mar 18 07:51:50 1997
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 08:51:50 +0100
Subject: nak.satras
Message-ID: <161227029008.23782.5199804930016336434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Fred Smith wrote:

>This year the vernal equinox occurs in aa;sle.sa nak.satra, and the
>pit.rpak.sa begins this year on Sept 17 (Bhaadrapada k.r.s.na pratipadaa,
>in Uttara Bhaadrapadaa nak.satra. Thanks goes to my trusty Kaalnir.nay
>Marathi calendar.

We seem to have understood Edwin's question differently. To clarify: on the
day of the vernal equinox, the *moon* will occupy Aa'sle.sa, as Fred's
calendar tells him -- and this is what is normally meant by a nak.satra
"governing the day" -- but the *sun* will be in early Uttarabhadra. It is
this equinoctial point (the apparent position of the sun in relation to the
zodiac at the time of the equinox), slowly regressing through the fixed
stars, which gives rise to the difference between the tropical and sidereal
zodiacs.

Martin Gansten






From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za  Tue Mar 18 08:42:33 1997
From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 10:42:33 +0200
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Sanskrit Introductory update
Message-ID: <161227029009.23782.3360355251455421037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


ANNOUNCE: Update of Sanskrit Introductory sktintro.ps

The Sanskrit Introductory course has been updated (minor rephrasing 
and typo correction, but substantially the same).  The "compress" 
option of dvips has been used: this make the file marginally slower 
to print but the result is a 75% reduction in file size (from 5.7Mb 
to 1.3Mb). It is also both viewable under ghostscript and directly 
printable on a printer with a PostScript interpreter.

The original announcement message giving the Table of Contents and
Preface in ASCII text is also available.

The files are available by anonymous ftp at:

      ftp://ftp.nac.ac.za/wikner/sktintro-announce.txt
      ........................../sktintro.ps600-letter-march97
      ........................../sktintro.ps600-a4paper-march97

The difference between the last two files is that the former is 
optimised for double-sided printing on U.S. letter paper, and the 
latter for European A4 size paper.

The above site is rather overloaded: you may find the Jaguar 
temporary site more accessible:

      ftp://t.ms.uky.edu/incoming/sktintro-announce.txt
      .........................../sktintro.ps600-letter-march97
      .........................../sktintro.ps600-a4paper-march97

Regards,
Charles Wikner.
wikner at nacdh4.nac.ac.za
18-March-1997






From MDROZ at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl  Tue Mar 18 11:10:23 1997
From: MDROZ at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl (Marzenna Czerniak-Drozdzowicz)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 11:10:23 +0000
Subject: pranava in the samhitas.
Message-ID: <161227029012.23782.12812013694402119530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date sent:      Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:34:18 GMT
Send reply to:  indology at liverpool.ac.uk
From:           Jan Brzezinski <jagat at polyinter.com>
To:             Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject:        pranava in the samhitas.

Hi folks,

I am trying to find some references in the Pancaratra Agamas. I am looking
for statements to the effect that women and sudras are not (or are)
permitted to receive initiation, pronounce the sacred pranava or other seed
mantras, whether they can chant the eight-letter mantra with or without the
addition of the svaha, pha.t, va.sa.t, etc., whether they are eligible for
the panca-samskaras.

The following Agamas are not available to me. If someone to whom they are
available could kindly confirm or deny the validity of the following
information, I would greatly appreciate it. Important verses with references
and (if really significant) transliteration are needed.

[I am sorry to be asking such a lot all at once. A lot of these texts are
not available even by interlibrary loan. If anyone knows where these are
available in libraries, please let me know. If anyone can send photocopies
of relevant pages, a million additional thanks.]

(1) Pauskara Samhita : (page 227, edition?), 123-146a. Use of mantras by
sudras and women. What does it say on this subject? 

(2) Isvara Samhita : pp. 442-448; 559-587.

(3) Parama Samhita (GOS, vol 86): Chapters 27-28. p.215 (vv.16-27) : A sudra
may wear sacred thread but only during worship. 'The rites for sudreas
generally proceed along tantric lines, without the use of the bija mantra,
whereas for ksatriyas and vaisyas the rituals are Vedic. (4.21). Sudras,
women of good birth, character and qualities are admitted (7.24).

(4) Satvata Samhita. After diksa any caste may use the mantras (2.1-12) but
in certain vratas non-brahmins do without mantras (chj. 8); women, elderly
people and youngsters may be eligible for ekaneka diksa (19.1-7).

(5) Bharadvaja Samhita 1.12-20. Any profession or caste eligible for prapatti.

(6) Visvamitra Smhita 3.17-26. Women and sudras may be candidates for
dvijatva. Alternative diksa rites in cases of women and sudras (3.27; 9.762-73).

(7) Parasara Samhita. (only available in Telugu script apparently) 3.78ff.
Rules for female prapannas, including necessity for pancasamskaras, 3.108ff
for sudras. Prerequisites for initiation. Discussion of pancasamskaras in
chapter 1.

(8) Brhadbrahma Samhita. A lot about initiation and elements of
pancasamskara. Anything about women and sudras?

(9) Markanedeya Samhita. Talks about pancasamskara not being necessary for
Bhagavatas (12.4-6). 14.36, svayam diksa (for all?).

(10) Visnutilaka Samhita. 3.490-511, special duties of widows, sannyasins
and brahmacaris. 1.65, panca samskara named only. 4.154. Mantrayaga may be
performed by anyone who has pancasamskara.

(11) Sandilya Samhita. 3.20-26. Purification of sudras by service, devotion
and tapas. Diksa for non-dvija. 2.15-42. Proper conduct of sudras, women,
etc. ii.7.1-26. Generall rules of conduct for women. Sudras. Low caste ways
to become pure. Non Vedic people are ineligible for diksa.

KoTi-daNDavan-naty-ante. 






        Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D.
1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0
       (819) 322-3382, 322-6146

As I am working on the Parama Samhita I can provide you with some 
information.
- there is no p. 215 in Parama - ed. Baroda 1940 (sanskrit text 
finishes with 208 and English text with 196)

- in chapter 27 vv16-27 do not refer to suudras, only vers 31 says 
about suudras:
anye.saamapi tulyo'ya.m sa.mgraha.h sa.mbhava.h sm.rta.h/ 
naagnikaarya.m tu suudrasya nasandhyopaasana.m tathaa//

- chapter 28 is very corrupt and not translated into English

- chapter IV. 21 does not refer to suudras at all

- chapter VII.24 :
braahma.naa.h k.satriyaa vaisyaa diik.saayogyaastraya.h sm.rtaa.h/
jaatisiilagu.nopetaa.h suudraasca striya eva ca//

- chapter XVII vv.14-20 - about suudras(I think you take it as XXVII)
suudra.mtu tantrajairmantrairdaasaanta.m naamaca sm.rtam/
upaviita.m ca vastra.m ca gu.namantre.na yojayet//14
uttariiyopaviite ca puujakaale tu naanyadaa/
na suudrasya para.m biija.m jape dhyaane ca kalpayet//15

I hope it will help
Marzena Drozdzowicz
Krakow





From efb3 at columbia.edu  Tue Mar 18 16:33:27 1997
From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 11:33:27 -0500
Subject: nak.satras
Message-ID: <161227029023.23782.8645860699714110306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Yes, the sun is the crucial issue.  I have just finished editing a
critique of various arguments using astronomy to date the Vedas.  One of
B.G. Tilak's more peripheral proposals was that the pit.rpak.sa, which
occurs during the two weeks after the
full moon of Bhaadrapadaa,  would more logically take place at the
beginning of the dak.si.naayana (the beginning of the sun's course
southward in the sky)--that is, immediately after the summer solstice-- 
since this half of the year is sacred to the pit.rs.  The dark half of
Bhaadrapadaa would have coincided with the summer solstice in the 4th
millennium BCE (it no longer does due to precession).  Tilak argued that
there was no logical explanation for the pit.rpak.sa currently being
observed in September sometime.  I don't think Whitney and Thibaut
(who opposed Tilak's and Jacobi's interpretations) responded to this
particular point.  
	Does anyone know why the pit.rpak.sa occurs when it presently 
does (ie why the dark half of Bhaadrapadaa is sacred to the pit.rs)?
Edwin.    



On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Martin Gansten wrote:

> We seem to have understood Edwin's question differently. To clarify: on the
> day of the vernal equinox, the *moon* will occupy Aa'sle.sa, as Fred's
> calendar tells him -- and this is what is normally meant by a nak.satra
> "governing the day" -- but the *sun* will be in early Uttarabhadra. It is
> this equinoctial point (the apparent position of the sun in relation to the
> zodiac at the time of the equinox), slowly regressing through the fixed
> stars, which gives rise to the difference between the tropical and sidereal
> zodiacs.
> 
> Martin Gansten
> 
> 
> 
> 







From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za  Tue Mar 18 10:10:06 1997
From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 12:10:06 +0200
Subject: ANNOUNCE: upgrade of SKT-series fonts
Message-ID: <161227029011.23782.1890326543557421323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


ANNOUNCE: Upgrade of SKT-series Devanagari font package.

In response to user requests, this package has undergone major changes:

 o  Accents for ALL Vedas (23 symbols in devanagari, 25 in roman).
    In transliteration the *form* follows that of the nagari.

 o  Accent marking in colour or grey shading.

 o  Choice of basic character forms (21), e.g. for a .r .na.

 o  Wide selection of samyoga forms (70 interacting options):
    a table in the documentation lists more than one thousand 
    samyogas together with their optional forms in devanagari.

 o  Range of inter- and intra-syllable spacing.

 o  Dynamic option selection (replaces skt.opt file).

The upgraded files are currently on CTAN in the /language/sanskrit
subdirectory.  A 600-kByte 600-dpi PostScript print file of the 
documentation and samples is available by anonymous ftp from:

      ftp://ftp.nacdh4.nac.ac.za/wikner/sktdoc.ps600

This site is rather overloaded: you may find the Jaguar temporary
site more accessible:

      ftp://t.ms.uky.edu/incoming/sanskrit/sktdoc.ps600

Regards,
Charles Wikner.
wikner at nacdh4.nac.ac.za
18-March-1997






From j.e.braarvig at iks.uio.no  Tue Mar 18 10:55:46 1997
From: j.e.braarvig at iks.uio.no (j.e.braarvig at iks.uio.no)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 12:55:46 +0200
Subject: Error Condition Re: Rites without meaning
Message-ID: <161227029017.23782.16848797070351119763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>j.e.braarvig at iks.uio.no: You are not subscribed to indology at liverpool.ac.uk.
>Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe,
>send mail to listproc at liverpool.ac.uk with the following request:
>
>                subscribe INDOLOGY Your Name
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dear members of the list, could someone please provide me with the
>reference to Fritz Staal's work on "Rites without meaning"? I am for the
>moment unable to find it, and need it for a student of mine. Thanking you
>in advance, Jens Braarvig.


I am sorry, but I am receiving all the mailings, I think, from the list. I
will, however, subscribe according to your message in a separate mailing.
Best wishes, Jens Braarvig.







From lpatton at emory.edu  Tue Mar 18 18:18:57 1997
From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie Patton)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 13:18:57 -0500
Subject: "Protestant"
Message-ID: <161227029024.23782.14960511375507979470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Professor Salmond, 

	You might also want to look at Gregory Schopen's piece,
"Archaeology and Protestant Presuppositions in the Study of Buddhism," 
in History of Religions 31.1 (1991): 1-23.  This article
is not exactly on the topic you raise, but an important related issue:
the relationship between certain Protestant understandings of what counts
as "true religion" and the ways in which scholars of Buddhism have
incorporated such theological perspectives into their own assessments of
archaeological and textual data.  


All the best,

Laurie L. Patton
Dept. of Religion
Emory University
Atlanta GA 30322
PH: 404-727-5177
FAX: 404-727-7597

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Noel Salmond wrote:

> 
> I find that both Rammmohun Roy or Dayananda Sarasvati are frequently
> referred to as the "Martin Luther of India."  Gananath Obeyesekere and
> Richard Gombrich have used the term "Protestant Buddhism" to refer to
> features of Theravaada Buddhism in Sri Lanka of the past century or so. R.
> Neufeldt has referred to the thought of M.G. Ranade as "Protestant Hinduism."
> 
> Is there a literature on the applicability of the heuristic epithet
> "Protestant" to some modern movements in the Indian religions? I am aware,
> of course, of Max Weber but can anyone direct me to commentary on the
> recent use of this category, or would anyone care to comment on its
> usefulness?
> 
> With thanks
> 
> Noel Salmond
> Carleton University
> 






From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu  Tue Mar 18 21:22:34 1997
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 13:22:34 -0800
Subject: nak.satras
Message-ID: <161227029027.23782.3280256214406440123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 06:12 PM 3/18/97 Edwin Bryant wrote:
>
>Yes, the sun is the crucial issue.  I have just finished editing a
>critique of various arguments using astronomy to date the Vedas.  One of
>B.G. Tilak's more peripheral proposals was that the pit.rpak.sa, which
>occurs during the two weeks after the
>full moon of Bhaadrapadaa,  would more logically take place at the
>beginning of the dak.si.naayana (the beginning of the sun's course
>southward in the sky)--that is, immediately after the summer solstice-- 
>since this half of the year is sacred to the pit.rs.  The dark half of
>Bhaadrapadaa would have coincided with the summer solstice in the 4th
>millennium BCE (it no longer does due to precession).  Tilak argued that
>there was no logical explanation for the pit.rpak.sa currently being
>observed in September sometime.  I don't think Whitney and Thibaut
>(who opposed Tilak's and Jacobi's interpretations) responded to this
>particular point.


But wasn't it Tilak's opinion that the ayanas were defined by the equinoxes
instead of the solstices?   I don't have Tilak's book with me, but,
according to Macdonell $ Keith (Vedic Index 1:529-539; 2:467,n.21) that was
his interpretation.
This interpretation, by the way, has no support in Vedic literature.
Nevertheless, there are translators who seem to have accepted it, such as
Ganguly/Roy (Mbh. vol.9:167-168) and Pargiter (the Markandeya Purana, p. 226).

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
UC Berkeley







From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za  Tue Mar 18 11:48:41 1997
From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 13:48:41 +0200
Subject: ANNOUNCE upgrade of SKT-series fonts
Message-ID: <161227029014.23782.6394454711033582300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Re: ANNOUNCE: Upgrade of SKT-series Devanagari font package.

> The upgraded files are currently on CTAN in the /language/sanskrit
> subdirectory.  A 600-kByte 600-dpi PostScript print file of the 
> documentation and samples is available by anonymous ftp from:
> 
>       ftp://ftp.nacdh4.nac.ac.za/wikner/sktdoc.ps600

That should be ftp://ftp.nac.ac.za/wikner/sktdoc.ps600

Thanks to Dominik for pointing it out; apologies to those inconvenienced.

Regards,
Charles Wikner.
wikner at nacdh4.nac.ac.za






From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za  Tue Mar 18 11:56:12 1997
From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 13:56:12 +0200
Subject: ANNOUNCE: article on vedic accents
Message-ID: <161227029015.23782.14111532034776679440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


ANNOUNCE: Article on Vedic Accents.

In designing the SKT-series of Devanagari fonts, I found it 
very difficult to get hold of basic information regarding
Vedic accentuation (both the symbols and their significance).
The information that I have managed to gather is presented 
in a short article which discusses the accent changes that 
arise in continuous speech (sa.mhitaa), their pronunciation, 
and the various systems of notation.  It is available at:

   ftp://ftp.nac.ac.za/wikner/accents.ps600-march97

It is a 100-kbyte Postscript file that runs to six pages.

Comments, corrections, additions, etc. are most welcome.

Regards,
Charles Wikner.
wikner at nacdh4.nac.ac.za
18-March-1997





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Tue Mar 18 22:29:22 1997
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 14:29:22 -0800
Subject: Question on Patanjali (Kashmir and P's MB)
Message-ID: <161227029029.23782.1344443287257908103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        After Chandan Raghava Narayan made a mention of my paper presented
at the Bangalore WSC, I have received requests for its copies from S.
Palaniappan and others. To save time as well as to inform all persons
interested in knowing more about Pata;~jali, I thought I should write to
the whole list.

        My paper will need some more months to be presentable in writing. I
still have a number of precise references to put in.  When the other
writing commitments I have made are met, I will finalize the text of the
paper and inform interested persons individually about its availability.
In the meanwhile, I will submit a summary and ask for help in one specific
area.

        Etymology of the name Pata;njali is not the focus of my paper. I
incidentally refer to the different versions of the folk story that seeks
to explain why he was called Pata;njali (some of these versions have
already been referred to by Madhav Deshpande (in his reference to
Pata;njali-carita), Chandan Raghava Narayan and S. Palaniappan), but I do
not offer an etymological solution of my own. However,I do point out that
the name is more likely to have been current in the northwestern part of
Sout Asia.

        The main goal of my paper was to find out why in the history of
Kashmir we find an unusual degree of interest in ensuring that the
tradition of studying the Mahaa-bhaa.sya continued. In pursuing this goal,
I first make a case for Kashmir as Pata;njali?s homeland for accepting
Gonardiiya / Gonandiiya as his epithet (the latter despite a conclusion to
the contrary by Kielhorn and some others). I then point out how the
Mahaa-bhaa.sya had acquired the status of a land-and-state-protecting text
-- a text ensuring well-being -- for the Kashmiris, through Pata;njali's
being regarded as a Naaga incarnation and the special importance attached
by pre-modern Kashmiris to preserving Naagas.

        (I very much hope the present Chief Minister of Kashmir is reading
this post and will immediately act on the suggestion it contains. If he
brings Indological studies in his state to such a high level that a robust
tradition of studying a text like the Mahaa-bhaa.sya will come into being,
I am sure, the problems of Kashmir will virtually be over. After doing some
preliminary preparation,Chief Minister should immediately send invitations
to scholars like S.D. Joshi, J. A.F. Roodbergen,George Cardona, Madhav
Deshpande and Pierre Filliozat -- in fact , all scholars who have recently
made significant contributions to Mahaabhaa.sya studies -- to come and
settle in Kashmir until expertise in Mahaa-bhaa.sya studies becomes a
hallmark of Kashmirian scholarship. I do not care if the future Kashmiri
Mahaa-bhaa.sya expert will be known as Candraacaarya or Abdullaacaarya or
as Raamaananda or Rahimaananda, but there has to be a
guru-;si?ya-para.mparaa of Kashmiri Mahaa-bhaa.sya experts.)

        It is in this last respect that list members could help me. I have
collected information about some cases in which preservation of
animals/creatures and texts is closely connected with state welfare
(Barbary macaque monkeys in the case of Gibraltar; Tipi.taka or
Praj;naa-paaramitaa texts in the case of some Buddhist kingdoms). I would
be grateful if list members would inform me about more such cases,
preferably with precise references to their sources.

Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of
British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2.







From Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch  Tue Mar 18 13:07:42 1997
From: Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch (Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 15:07:42 +0200
Subject: Error Condition Re: Rites without meaning
Message-ID: <161227029018.23782.12275790977969365633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>>Dear members of the list, could someone please provide me with the
>>reference to Fritz Staal's work on "Rites without meaning"? I am for the
>>moment unable to find it, and need it for a student of mine. Thanking you
>>in advance, Jens Braarvig.

Dear Mr Braarvig,

STAAL Frits, Rules without Meaning. Rituals, Mantras and the human
sciences, Frankfurt/m.-Bern-New York-Paris, Lang, 1989.

All the best. Anand NAYAK

Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous
sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful
sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole
sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy

INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
Universit? de Fribourg
Route du Jura
CH-1700 Fribourg
Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
        026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
Fax;    026/ 300 9768

URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr

Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK        







From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Tue Mar 18 16:24:27 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 16:24:27 +0000
Subject: Adhyatma-Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227029021.23782.4962092830782637012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, I forgot the URL of IITS:

http://www.rrz.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.html






From efb3 at columbia.edu  Tue Mar 18 22:43:26 1997
From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 17:43:26 -0500
Subject: nak.satras/dating
Message-ID: <161227029030.23782.11192828277779584208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The least convincing part of Tilak's attempt (in addition to some of his
astronomical interpretations of comparative IE mythology) was his attempt
to correlate the ayanas with the equinoxes on the basis of a solitary
verse from the Satapatha Braahma.na--he connects the ayanas with the
deva/pit.ryaanas, and quotes the verse which states that vasanta, grishma
and varsha are seasons of the deva, and sharad, hemanta and shishira those
of the pit.rs.  This gave him reason to propose that the ayanas were
associated with the equinoxes in the .Rg period, but were transferred to
the solstices by the time of the jyoti.sa vedaa.nga.  As you say, this is
not supported by later tradition, and is the least plausible part of his
speculations.  Some of his other interpretations, however, although
invoking a disdainful and disparaging retort from Whitney, and a much more
respectful but unconvinced response from Thibaut (and Oldenberg), are more 
interesting.    Edwin Bryant



On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote:

> At 06:12 PM 3/18/97 Edwin Bryant wrote:
> >
> >Yes, the sun is the crucial issue.  I have just finished editing a
> >critique of various arguments using astronomy to date the Vedas.  One of
> >B.G. Tilak's more peripheral proposals was that the pit.rpak.sa, which
> >occurs during the two weeks after the
> >full moon of Bhaadrapadaa,  would more logically take place at the
> >beginning of the dak.si.naayana (the beginning of the sun's course
> >southward in the sky)--that is, immediately after the summer solstice-- 
> >since this half of the year is sacred to the pit.rs.  The dark half of
> >Bhaadrapadaa would have coincided with the summer solstice in the 4th
> >millennium BCE (it no longer does due to precession).  Tilak argued that
> >there was no logical explanation for the pit.rpak.sa currently being
> >observed in September sometime.  I don't think Whitney and Thibaut
> >(who opposed Tilak's and Jacobi's interpretations) responded to this
> >particular point.
> 
> 
> But wasn't it Tilak's opinion that the ayanas were defined by the equinoxes
> instead of the solstices?   I don't have Tilak's book with me, but,
> according to Macdonell $ Keith (Vedic Index 1:529-539; 2:467,n.21) that was
> his interpretation.
> This interpretation, by the way, has no support in Vedic literature.
> Nevertheless, there are translators who seem to have accepted it, such as
> Ganguly/Roy (Mbh. vol.9:167-168) and Pargiter (the Markandeya Purana, p. 226).
> 
> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
> UC Berkeley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Tue Mar 18 19:11:26 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 19:11:26 +0000
Subject: Lectureship in Hindi at SOAS (forwarded)
Message-ID: <161227029026.23782.9851172263511759373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:48:19 GMT
From: Mike Hutt, SOAS <MH8 at soas.ac.uk>
To: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Lectureship in Hindi


LECTURESHIP IN HINDI

Applications are invited for the post of Lecturer in Hindi in the 
Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia at the School of 
Oriental and African Studies in London, for appointment in September 
1997.  The successful candidate will teach Hindi language and literature 
from introductory to advanced levels, and will undertake research and 
publication in Hindi language and literature or a related field of South 
Asian studies.  S/he will also contribute to undergraduate and Masters 
courses on South Asian culture and literature, though much of the 
teaching is likely to relate to the study of Hindi language and texts. 
The successful candidate will have a PhD in a relevant field and a 
demonstrated commitment to the active pursuit of research.  


FURTHER PARTICULARS

The School of Oriental Studies, as it was first called, received its 
Royal Charter and became a college of the University of London in 1916.  
In 1943 it moved to its present premises in Bloomsbury, which have since 
been greatly extended with the completion of the New Building in 1973 
and the addition of the Brunei Gallery in 1995.  The School is located 
in central London, just off Russell Square and close to the British 
Museum.

SOAS is now one of the leading centres of Asian and African Studies in 
the western world, and its academic staff complement of about 200 is the 
largest concentration of scholars concerned with the whole of Africa and 
Asia at any university in the world.  It consists of five Language and 
Culture departments (focusing on East Asia, South East Asia, South Asia, 
the Near and Middle East, and Africa) plus departments of Anthropology 
and Sociology, Art and Archaeology, Development Studies, Economics, 
Politics, Geography, History, Law, Linguistics, Study of Religions and 
Music.  The Library contains nearly 1,000,000 items and acts as a 
national lending library for the fields it covers.  The School sees its 
role as providing for the integrated study of all aspects of Asian and 
African societies.

The Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia

The Department offers the widest coverage in the United Kingdom of 
research and teaching related to the languages, literatures and cultures 
of the principal countries of South Asia: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, 
Sri Lanka and Nepal. Its primary commitment is to the teaching of 
language and literature, but the teaching programme also includes 
'English-medium' courses in literature, film studies, folklore, music, 
religion, and civilisation. 
Amongst the modern languages, the Hindi and Urdu sections form a core, 
while teaching and research is also conducted in Bengali, Gujarati, 
Nepali, Panjabi, Sinhalese and Tamil.   The classical languages 
Sanskrit, Pali, and Prakrit are also taught in the Department.  Recent 
changes to the degree structure have been designed in part to maximise 
the potential of teaching in those languages for which there is only one 
teacher in post; the 'South Asian Studies' degree promotes the study of 
language and literature in the context of the broader culture of the 
area.  In 1996 the Department also established a single-subject BA in 
Hindi, providing an opportunity for more intensive study of Hindi 
language and literature.  Members of the Department teach into various 
inter-departmental Masters courses and degrees, and 1998 will see the 
launch of a new Department-based MA in South Asian Cultural Studies.

Members of the Department

Dr Stuart Blackburn, Lecturer in Tamil.
Tamil language and literature;  folklore; oral literature; literary 
history.

Dr Rachel Dwyer, Lecturer in Gujarati and Indian Studies.  
Gujarati language and literature; Gujarati Vaishnavism; Gujarati 
diaspora; comparative Indian literature; Indian popular culture.

Dr Michael Hutt, Senior Lecturer in Nepali.  
Nepali language and literature; Nepalese art; contemporary change in the 
Himalayan region.

Dr Amrik Kalsi,  Senior Lecturer in Hindi and Urdu.  
Hindi and Urdu language and literature; Panjabi language.  

Dr Javed Majeed,  Lecturer in Urdu.
Urdu literature;  comparative literature in British India;  Iqbal.

Dr David Matthews, Senior Lecturer in Urdu and Nepali.  
Urdu and Nepali language and literature;  Islam in South Asia. 

Dr William Radice,  Lecturer in Bengali.  
Bengali language and literature;  Tagore;  19th century Bengal; literary 
translation.

Professor Christopher Shackle, Professor of Modern Languages of South 
Asia in the University of London.  
Panjabi and Urdu languages and literatures; regional languages of 
Pakistan and North-West India; Islam in South Asia; Sikhism. 

Dr Rupert Snell, Reader in Hindi.
Hindi language and literature; Vaishnava bhakti verse;  Braj 'Riti' 
poetry. 

Dr Renate Sohnen-Thieme,  Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit.  
Sanskrit language and literature;  classical Indian religions;  folklore 
of Baltistan.

Dr Richard Widdess, Senior Lecturer in Ethnomusicology with reference to 
South Asia.      
Traditional musics of South Asia, their history, structure and practice;  
the history of raga;  Indian musical notations;  the dhrupad style of 
North Indian vocal music;  

Professor J.C. Wright, Professorial Research Fellow
Sanskrit language and literature; Vedic; Pali and Prakrit; poetic 
theory; palaeography and epigraphy; Indo-Aryan philology;  classical 
Indian religions.

The Post

Hindi is offered within a number of different undergraduate programmes:  
the new 4-year degree BA Hindi (in which year 3 is spent in India), the 
'flagship' degree;  3-year South Asian Studies; and joint honours of 
'two-subject' degrees (available in both 3-year and 4-year formats, i.e. 
with or without a 3rd year in India) in which Hindi combines with 
another discipline taught in the school.  Individual Hindi courses are 
also available to students on other programmes.  First-year classes in 
these various categories have a total of some 40 students;  later years 
have smaller groups.  The new appointee will teach Hindi alongside Dr 
Rupert Snell and Dr Amrik Kalsi.
	In recent years the Department has increased its range of courses which 
are not language-specific, as part of a policy of making South Asian 
studies more widely available (and attractive) to a larger body of 
students including those whose primary interest or expertise is not 
linguistic; the list now features South Asian Culture, South Asian 
Literature in English, South Asian Folklore, Devotional Hinduism, 
Foundations of Nepali Culture, and Cinema and Society in India.  This 
development is an important plank in our student recruitment strategy, 
whose success is vital if we are to maintain our present levels of 
staffing and language coverage. The new departmental MA, to come fully 
on stream in 1998-99, has been devised with similar aims in mind. 

The successful applicant will have a PhD in Hindi or a closely related 
subject, and a proven track record in published research.

Successful candidates will be expected to contribute to:

o	undergraduate teaching in Hindi language and literature
o	undergraduate courses on South Asian Culture
o	the development of further undergraduate course options 
o	courses in Hindi literature within MA Comparative Literature and other 
	Masters programmes
o	a new departmental MA on South Asian Cultural Studies (from 1998)
o	the supervision of undergraduate dissertations ('Independent Study 
	Projects')
o	the development of teaching materials for language and literature 
	courses
o	the development of new examinations for students returning from 8 
	months in India

and also:

o	to supervise MPhil/PhD research
o	to share departmental administrative and tutorial duties
o	to participate in the seminars and other occasional activities of the 
	South Asia Centre 
o	to consider contributing a volume to the departmental series SOAS 
	South Asian Texts (published by Oxford University Press, Delhi)

Closing date:   Friday 25 April    1997

SOAS is an equal opportunities employer.

The appointment will date from 1 September 1997.  It will be made on the 
Lecturer A scale (#15,593 - #20,424 p.a.) or Lecturer B scale (#21,277 - 
#27,196 p.a.), depending on qualifications and experience, plus London 
Allowance, currently #2,134 p.a.  Membership of USS will be available.

Potential applicants are encouraged to seek further information from the 
Head of Department, Dr Michael Hutt or the Executive Officer, Susan 
Madigan (SOAS fax 0171 436 3844 or Departmental 0171 323 6240/6251.  
E-mail <mh8 at soas.ac.uk> or <sm2 at soas.ac.uk>).

An application form and further particulars may be obtained from the 
Personnel Office, School of Oriental and African Studies, Thornhaugh 
Street, Russell Square, London, WC1H 0XG (tel:  0171 323 6189 between 
10:30am and 12.30pm, fax: 0171 636 2779, email: personnel at soas.ac.uk).  
Overseas candidates may apply directly by letter, and all applications 
should be supported by a full curriculum vitae and the names, addresses, 
fax and telephone numbers of three referees.



Michael Hutt
School of Oriental and African Studies London 
tel. 171-323-6240/6251 
fax 171-436-3844 or 171-436-2664
e-mail mh8 at soas.ac.uk






From j.e.braarvig at iks.uio.no  Wed Mar 19 06:50:57 1997
From: j.e.braarvig at iks.uio.no (j.e.braarvig at iks.uio.no)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 08:50:57 +0200
Subject: Rites without meaning
Message-ID: <161227029032.23782.13487993848756442604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list, could someone please provide me with the
reference to Fritz Staal's work on "Rites without meaning"? I am for the
moment unable to find it, and need it for a student of mine. Thanking you
in advance, Jens Braarvig.







From Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch  Wed Mar 19 06:59:22 1997
From: Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch (Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 08:59:22 +0200
Subject: Rites without meaning
Message-ID: <161227029033.23782.7536225717051490548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear members of the list, could someone please provide me with the
>reference to Fritz Staal's work on "Rites without meaning"? I am for the
>moment unable to find it, and need it for a student of mine. Thanking you
>in advance, Jens Braarvig.




Dear Mr Braarvig,

STAAL Frits, Rules without Meaning. Rituals, Mantras and the human
sciences, Frankfurt/m.-Bern-New York-Paris, Lang, 1989.

All the best. Anand NAYAK

Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous
sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful
sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole
sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy

INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
Universit? de Fribourg
Route du Jura
CH-1700 Fribourg
Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
        026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
Fax;    026/ 300 9768

URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr

Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK        







From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Wed Mar 19 15:47:03 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 09:47:03 -0600
Subject: Q: Univ. Koeln Tamil Library catalogs
Message-ID: <161227029038.23782.11877231010245062026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



 I am trying to search for few words in classical Tamil texts
in IITS, Univ. of Koeln gopher site. That is linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de
In the "\oTukkalAm" directory.

Also, some book title searches in the library catalogue.
I have been doing this for years. But I could not look into those
in the last month. What is happening?


Can someone at Univ. of Koeln help, please?

N. Ganesan






From athr at loc.gov  Wed Mar 19 15:18:04 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 10:18:04 -0500
Subject: kalaaya (was: question)
Message-ID: <161227029036.23782.8952670420293150396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

More information on Lathyrus:  I looked again at the Thompon and Morgan
catalog, and L. sativus is indeed blue: "Small sweet pea flowers of azure
blue.  Occasionally with a tinge of pink."  They include a logo to
indicate the whole genus is poisonous, so I guess I can save a stamp.

Allen Thrasher


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Allen Thrasher wrote:

> About Lathyrus and lathyrism:
> 
> Lathyrus as I recall is a famine crop raised in drought and consumed when
> nothing else will grow, only to be used when the alternative is
> starvation, because of the known danger not only of paralysis but of gross
> permanent twisting of the limbs.  I read at least a decade ago that an
> Indian researcher had developed a way of cooking it that neutralised its
> dangers.  Coincidentally I noticed in the catalog of the great British
> seed company Thompson and Morgan a few days ago that they are offering
> several species of Lathyrus as ornamental plants.  This reminds me I
> should write to suggest to them they include a warning not to sample the
> pods out of curiosity.
> 
> 
> Allen W. Thrasher
> 
> The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.
> 
> 






From thompson at jlc.net  Wed Mar 19 15:36:19 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 11:36:19 -0400
Subject: Rites without meaning
Message-ID: <161227029039.23782.6861835575962378629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Dear members of the list, could someone please provide me with the
>>reference to Fritz Staal's work on "Rites without meaning"? I am for the
>>moment unable to find it, and need it for a student of mine. Thanking you
>>in advance, Jens Braarvig.
>
>
>Dear Mr Braarvig,
>
>STAAL Frits, Rules without Meaning. Rituals, Mantras and the human
>sciences, Frankfurt/m.-Bern-New York-Paris, Lang, 1989.
>
>All the best. Anand NAYAK
>
A new edition of this book has recently been published in India by Motilal,
with a slightly different title:

*Ritual and Mantras: Rules without Meaning* [1996]

It may be more easily available and certainly more affordable.

Best wishes,
George Thompson








From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk  Wed Mar 19 12:14:31 1997
From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 12:14:31 +0000
Subject: [SCIENTIFIC ACHIEVEMENTS of Ancient India](fwd)
Message-ID: <161227029035.23782.15031245636319421571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,

I have been asked to post this message on behalf of someone who is not on this
list.

Bye,

Girish Beeharry

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:51:04 -0600
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com
Subject: SCIENTIFIC ACHIEVEMENTS of Ancient India
Reply-To: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com
Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Mar 18 05:45:17 1997 GMT

I am a student of Indology, and  since 1980 I have been working on the
subject "Ancient India's Contribution to Science and Technology". I have
recently completed a book which covers among other sciences, the advances
made in ancient India in the fields of Mechanical Engineering, Civil
Engineering, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, Medical Science,
Shipbuilding and Navigation, Fine Arts, etc.

I believe the material in this book would be of interest to students of
the History of Science and Technology, Indologists and Students of Indian
society and culture.

For more on this you can visit me at:

http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/index.html

I am also interested in more info on the history of science and
technology with specific relevance to ancient India. Please let me know of
any relevant sites.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Sudheer Birodkar
------- End of forwarded message -------





From elizarev at iaas.msu.su  Thu Mar 20 01:12:20 1997
From: elizarev at iaas.msu.su (Aleksandre Yellizariev)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 01:12:20 +0000
Subject: e-mail adress search
Message-ID: <161227029043.23782.10097823728165819163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anybody help me to find out the e-mail adress of Prof. Richard Barz, Faculty of Asian Studies, Australia National University?

Highly appreciate your assistence.

-------------------------------
Alexandre Elisariev
Institute of Afro-Asian Studies,
Moscow State University,
tel/fax +7 (095) 451 05 64
elizarev at iaas.msu.su
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1408 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19970320/c93c8744/attachment.bin>

From conlon at u.washington.edu  Thu Mar 20 15:12:55 1997
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 07:12:55 -0800
Subject: e-mail adress search
Message-ID: <161227029049.23782.5883458526360548923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The address for Richard Barz is:

Richard Barz <Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au>


Frank F. Conlon
Professor of History
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
Co-editor of H-ASIA
<conlon at u.washington.edu>








From cssetzer at mum.edu  Thu Mar 20 16:10:14 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 10:10:14 -0600
Subject: Films
Message-ID: <161227029051.23782.2937620221615554462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I tried this site and it worked fine for me on Microsoft INTERNET Explorer,
although it was not exactly "automatic"...I had to try several options
before it worked.

Claude Setzer
----------
> From: Asko Parpola <Asko.Parpola at helsinki.fi>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Films
> Date: Thursday, March 20, 1997 3:52 AM
> 
> >In response to the enquiries from Jim Hartzell and David Magier about my
> >August 1994 list of Documentary Films and Videos on South Asian
Religion:
> >no, I haven't updated it since (life has been too busy), though I have
> >occasionally thought about it and would welcome any additional material
or
> >offers of help.  The original list is still available at the ANU Coombs
> >server at the following URL:
> >
>
>ftp://coombs.anu.edu.au/coombspapers/otherarchives/asian-religions-archives
/
> >asian-religions-general/sth-asia-relig-films-videos.txt
> >
> >Geoffrey Samuel
> >current address (to 8/97)
> >Dept of Sociology and Anthropology
> >University of Newcastle
> >NSW 2308, Australia
> >sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au
> 
> I tried to look at this, got to the site, but none of the links
(Hinduism,
> etc.) could be opened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Mar 20 15:56:51 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 10:56:51 -0500
Subject: announcing a new book: SAMSK.RTASUBODHINII : A SANSKRIT PRIMER
Message-ID: <161227029050.23782.1174636126240333668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

	I am pleased to announce the publication of my new book

	SAMSK.RTASUBODHINII : A SANSKRIT PRIMER.  
	
	This book is now published as volume 47 of Michigan Papers on
South and Southeast Asia by the Center for South and Southeast Asian
Studies, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109, USA. 
Copies will be available approximately in three weeks both in paperback
($26.00) and hard-cover ($48.00) versions.  For details on how to order,
please contact Mr. Les Adler at: 

	Tel:  313/764-0352, 763-5408
	E-mail:  CSSEAS at umich.edu
	FAX:  313/936-0996

	The book is about 500 pages in length.  It is designed as an
introductory language-learning book, rather than as a reference grammar,
or as a book to introduce someone to IE or Paninian linguistics, religion,
Yoga or mysticism.  After a short introduction to the history and
structure of the language, the book extensively covers the grammar of
Classical Sanskrit in 44 lessons, each with ample exercises of various
kinds.  These lessons are then followed by 10 reading materials (including
stories and Subhaa.sitas).  This is followed by Sanskrit-English and
English-Sanskrit glossaries.
	I began working on this book in 1976 and about 20 generations of
my students have gone through successively revised versions of it.  During
the last few years, the book was also used as a photocopied coursepack in
a number of universities, and I received valuable suggestions for
modifications.  The book as it is now published supersedes all prior
photocopied versions which are in circulation.  I REQUEST ALL THOSE
COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE USED PREVIOUS VERSIONS NOT TO USE THEM ANY FURTHER AND
MAKE NO FURTHER PHOTOCOPIES OF THE OLDER VERSIONS.  THE COPYRIGHT FOR THE
BOOK NOW RESTS WITH THE PUBLISHER and making photocopies is no longer a
permissible option.
	With best wishes,
				MADHAV DESHPANDE		






From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Thu Mar 20 11:26:40 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 11:26:40 +0000
Subject: Q: Univ. Koeln Tamil Library catalogs
Message-ID: <161227029047.23782.718936631608666146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Ganesan, dear members of the list!

I'm very sorry for the inconvienience caused by using our Gopher.
The fact is that the Gopher-service is no longer supported by our server.
Unfortunately we got informed very late about it and there are efforts to
restore the service under SF-gate but this won't happen before end of april.

Please, be assured that we'll give our best and till the service is
available again kindly request our personal assistance in your search of our
library catalogue and anything else.

At the moment Dr. Malthen is not in Cologne but he'll be back by 8th of april.
I'm sure Dr. Niklas can help with any questions concerning Tamil, aswell as
the staff of the IITS will gladly assist you.

May I offer to act as an intermediary or kindly mail your requests to:
           <u.niklas at uni-koeln.de>

Yours sincerely

Tobias
<grotebev at uni-koeln.de>
<grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de>

At 19:08 19.03.1997 GMT, GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote:

> I am trying to search for few words in classical Tamil texts
>in IITS, Univ. of Koeln gopher site. That is linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de
>In the "\oTukkalAm" directory.
>
>Also, some book title searches in the library catalogue.
>I have been doing this for years. But I could not look into those
>in the last month. What is happening?
>
>
>Can someone at Univ. of Koeln help, please?
>
>N. Ganesan
>
>
>
>






From Asko.Parpola at helsinki.fi  Thu Mar 20 09:30:21 1997
From: Asko.Parpola at helsinki.fi (Asko.Parpola at helsinki.fi)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 11:30:21 +0200
Subject: Films
Message-ID: <161227029046.23782.3518157725507720110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>In response to the enquiries from Jim Hartzell and David Magier about my
>August 1994 list of Documentary Films and Videos on South Asian Religion:
>no, I haven't updated it since (life has been too busy), though I have
>occasionally thought about it and would welcome any additional material or
>offers of help.  The original list is still available at the ANU Coombs
>server at the following URL:
>
>ftp://coombs.anu.edu.au/coombspapers/otherarchives/asian-religions-archives/
>asian-religions-general/sth-asia-relig-films-videos.txt
>
>Geoffrey Samuel
>current address (to 8/97)
>Dept of Sociology and Anthropology
>University of Newcastle
>NSW 2308, Australia
>sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au

I tried to look at this, got to the site, but none of the links (Hinduism,
etc.) could be opened.









From sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au  Thu Mar 20 01:15:19 1997
From: sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au (sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 12:15:19 +1100
Subject: Films
Message-ID: <161227029041.23782.17327318788493262321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to the enquiries from Jim Hartzell and David Magier about my
August 1994 list of Documentary Films and Videos on South Asian Religion:
no, I haven't updated it since (life has been too busy), though I have
occasionally thought about it and would welcome any additional material or
offers of help.  The original list is still available at the ANU Coombs
server at the following URL:

ftp://coombs.anu.edu.au/coombspapers/otherarchives/asian-religions-archives/
asian-religions-general/sth-asia-relig-films-videos.txt

Geoffrey Samuel
current address (to 8/97)
Dept of Sociology and Anthropology
University of Newcastle
NSW 2308, Australia
sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au







From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au  Thu Mar 20 07:22:40 1997
From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 17:22:40 +1000
Subject: e-mail adress search
Message-ID: <161227029044.23782.5291955083757432049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au

(Like most universities the Australian National University has a web page

http://asia.anu.edu.au/

 with access to a directory of staff and student email addresses.)

>Can anybody help me to find out the e-mail adress of Prof. Richard Barz,
>Faculty of Asian Studies, Australia National University?
>
>Highly appreciate your assistence.
>
>-------------------------------
>Alexandre Elisariev


Royce Wiles,
e-mail: royce.wiles at anu.edu.au
Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message):     Home: +61 6 258 5134
Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326                Mobile:041 928 7569

Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies,
Australian National University,GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200, AUSTRALIA








From kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu  Fri Mar 21 00:12:08 1997
From: kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu (kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 18:12:08 -0600
Subject: Paper abstract
Message-ID: <161227029055.23782.4643965737951974808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"South Asian Immigrants to Britain in the Early Nineteenth Century: A
Question of Agency"
                                        by Michael H. Fisher, Oberlin College
                                                        presented at the
                                            University of Texas at Austin,
                                        South Asia Seminar, March 20, 1997

                                                              Abstract
        A growing body of powerful scholarship has begun to analyze the
dimensions and effects of recent racial attitudes in Britain toward people
of South Asian origin.  Less attention has hitherto been given by scholars
to the degree of agency that different classes of early nineteenth century
immigrants from South Asia could assert in shaping English attitudes both
about them as individuals and about India and Indians generally.  This
paper examines the changing nature of interactions in Britain during the
first half of the nineteenth century between a single class of people
immigrating from South Asia and indigenous Britons, drawing as much as
possible the words and lives of these immigrants.  By focusing on lascars
(i.e. sailors from South Asia), this paper will analyze the patterns of
their relationships with the rest of society in England.
        Based on preliminary research into the life histories and social,
cultural, and economic contexts of various immigrants from India to
Britain, I argue that for the early nineteenth century, we must not
anachronistically project back twentieth century British cultural
definitions of race or the "orient."  Rather, such constructs about people
from South Asia developed in Britain over time, through shifting
negotiations and interactions between Asians and Britons, in the context of
growing British imperialism, and at a different pace from racial attitudes
and dynamics within India and other British colonies.  During the early
years of British imperialism in Asia, immigrants from South Asia advanced,
with varying degrees of agency, discursive models of their identity within
the British society they had entered.  For most immigrants from South Asia,
class boundaries in Britain during this early period seem to have been more
pronounced than racial ones.  For lascars, their status as males also did
much to determine their opportunities in British society.  Limited upward
mobility in terms of economic status and what would later be called
"inter-racial marriage" were both possible.  By the late nineteenth
century, however, the degree of agency that these and other immigrants from
South Asia in Britain could exercise through these ongoing and contested
negotiations with the indigenous British had diminished considerably.



The above abstract can be accessed at:

http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/conseminar/Fisherabstract.html

Thanks.

All the best,
kamal







From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Thu Mar 20 22:01:16 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 22:01:16 +0000
Subject: Q: Univ. Koeln Tamil Library catalogs
Message-ID: <161227029053.23782.18151183280702398551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:03 20.03.1997 GMT, Tobias Grote-Beverborg wrote:

>At the moment Dr. Malthen ...

Sorry, it's Dr. Malten.






From wgw at dnai.com  Fri Mar 21 17:29:54 1997
From: wgw at dnai.com (wgw at dnai.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 09:29:54 -0800
Subject: Vikram Seth - more questions
Message-ID: <161227029057.23782.9815264227073231359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>Now, does the sentence 'To work, to work, Macbeth doth shirk.' refer to any
>generally known piece of English literature?
>
>2. p. 1140 (Chapter 16.20, 2nd-3rd page)

I can't say for sure what it IS, but it is not from Macbeth. The word
(shirk) comes into use well after Shakespeare. Perhaps it is a reference to
what macbeth MIGHT have said when he prepared to kill Duncan.
>
>
>[on a cricket match]
>	Pran looked acros at the pavilion section and was completely taken
>aback.
>	'Oh, Malvolio!' he said, as if he had seen Banquo instead.
>	'What was that?' said Haresh.
>	'Nothing. I suddenly remembered something I had to teach next term.
>Cricket balls, my liege. Something just struck me. No, I - I can't say for
>sure that I recognize him - I think you'd better ask the Calcutta people.'
>
>
>Again, the same. The phrase 'Cricket balls, my liege.' Any suggestions?
>
>Although cricket has been a game since Henry VIII (also called
"stool-ball"), the cricket (insect) is an evil omen in Macbeth. Malvolio is
of course, a character in Twelfth Night. There is, in Much Ado, a reference
to "tennis balls," but I can't remember precisely where.

I think what you have here is pseudo-quotation; that is, characters making
up phrases which they imply are quotes from literature. What you might call
"affected scholarship" or perhaps private jokes alluding to school
experiences. So the people are using Shakespearian names and dialect, but
not actually quoting. 


William G Wall, Ph.D.
Institute for Vaisnava Studies
Graduate Theological Union
PO Box 11216
Berkeley CA 94712
(510) 849-8280 (office)

email: wgw at dnai.com
Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se








From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz  Fri Mar 21 12:49:48 1997
From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 13:49:48 +0100
Subject: Vikram Seth - more questions
Message-ID: <161227029056.23782.17976012546227574734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Finishing the second (e.g. the last) volume of the Czech translation of the
novel A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, we've encountered some more problems I
hope some of you will be able to help us with.

At first, the translator has asked me to make an inquiry about two places
which could refer to some English texts (so it is not an indological
question today, so if you know about any other better place where to put
this questions, please forward it there).

1. p. 1109 (Chapter 16.7, 2nd page)

	Amit's face grew troubled. 'It's better than spending my life doing
the law like my father and grandfather before me. And the main reason is
that I often like my work when it's done - it's just the doing that is so
tedious. With a short poem there's the inspiration of course. But with this
novel I have to whip myself to my desk - To work, to work, Macbeth doth
shirk.'

Now, does the sentence 'To work, to work, Macbeth doth shirk.' refer to any
generally known piece of English literature?

2. p. 1140 (Chapter 16.20, 2nd-3rd page)


[on a cricket match]
	Pran looked acros at the pavilion section and was completely taken
aback.
	'Oh, Malvolio!' he said, as if he had seen Banquo instead.
	'What was that?' said Haresh.
	'Nothing. I suddenly remembered something I had to teach next term.
Cricket balls, my liege. Something just struck me. No, I - I can't say for
sure that I recognize him - I think you'd better ask the Calcutta people.'


Again, the same. The phrase 'Cricket balls, my liege.' Any suggestions?

Thank you, Jan Dvorak





From ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu  Fri Mar 21 22:35:18 1997
From: ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu (Lawrence J. McCrea)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 16:35:18 -0600
Subject: Vikram Seth - more questions
Message-ID: <161227029059.23782.1690892604112381316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In message Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:21:59 GMT,
  Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan Dvorak)  writes:

> 1. p. 1109 (Chapter 16.7, 2nd page)
>
> 	Amit's face grew troubled. 'It's better than spending my life doing
> the law like my father and grandfather before me. And the main reason is
> that I often like my work when it's done - it's just the doing that is so
> tedious. With a short poem there's the inspiration of course. But with
> this novel I have to whip myself to my desk - To work, to work, Macbeth
> doth shirk.'
>
> Now, does the sentence 'To work, to work, Macbeth doth shirk.' refer to
> any generally known piece of English literature?

The "quotation" is a parody of Macbeth, Act 1, Scene 3 (line 30)-- "A drum,
a drum! Macbeth doth come." (spoken by one of the witches).

                                      Yours sincerely,
                                           Lawrence McCrea





From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu  Sat Mar 22 03:43:37 1997
From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 21:43:37 -0600
Subject: Vikram Seth - more questions
Message-ID: <161227029060.23782.1760363056250307214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>Now, does the sentence 'To work, to work, Macbeth doth shirk.' refer to any
>generally known piece of English literature?
>
>2. p. 1140 (Chapter 16.20, 2nd-3rd page)

I can't say for sure what it IS, but it is not from Macbeth. The word
(shirk) comes into use well after Shakespeare. Perhaps it is a reference to
what macbeth MIGHT have said when he prepared to kill Duncan.
>
>
>[on a cricket match]
>       Pran looked acros at the pavilion section and was completely taken
>aback.
>       'Oh, Malvolio!' he said, as if he had seen Banquo instead.
>       'What was that?' said Haresh.
>       'Nothing. I suddenly remembered something I had to teach next term.
>Cricket balls, my liege. Something just struck me. No, I - I can't say for
>sure that I recognize him - I think you'd better ask the Calcutta people.'
>
>
>Again, the same. The phrase 'Cricket balls, my liege.' Any suggestions?
>
>Although cricket has been a game since Henry VIII (also called
"stool-ball"), the cricket (insect) is an evil omen in Macbeth. Malvolio is
of course, a character in Twelfth Night. There is, in Much Ado, a reference
to "tennis balls," but I can't remember precisely where.

I think what you have here is pseudo-quotation; that is, characters making
up phrases which they imply are quotes from literature. What you might call
"affected scholarship" or perhaps private jokes alluding to school
experiences. So the people are using Shakespearian names and dialect, but
not actually quoting.


William G Wall, Ph.D.
Institute for Vaisnava Studies
Graduate Theological Union
PO Box 11216
Berkeley CA 94712
(510) 849-8280 (office)

email: wgw at dnai.com
Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se

Jai Siebenaler The most awesome person in y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu







From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu  Sat Mar 22 03:44:08 1997
From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 21:44:08 -0600
Subject: Vikram Seth - more questions
Message-ID: <161227029062.23782.13485528018989043662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Finishing the second (e.g. the last) volume of the Czech translation of the
novel A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, we've encountered some more problems I
hope some of you will be able to help us with.

At first, the translator has asked me to make an inquiry about two places
which could refer to some English texts (so it is not an indological
question today, so if you know about any other better place where to put
this questions, please forward it there).

1. p. 1109 (Chapter 16.7, 2nd page)

        Amit's face grew troubled. 'It's better than spending my life doing
the law like my father and grandfather before me. And the main reason is
that I often like my work when it's done - it's just the doing that is so
tedious. With a short poem there's the inspiration of course. But with this
novel I have to whip myself to my desk - To work, to work, Macbeth doth
shirk.'

Now, does the sentence 'To work, to work, Macbeth doth shirk.' refer to any
generally known piece of English literature?

2. p. 1140 (Chapter 16.20, 2nd-3rd page)


[on a cricket match]
        Pran looked acros at the pavilion section and was completely taken
aback.
        'Oh, Malvolio!' he said, as if he had seen Banquo instead.
        'What was that?' said Haresh.
        'Nothing. I suddenly remembered something I had to teach next term.
Cricket balls, my liege. Something just struck me. No, I - I can't say for
sure that I recognize him - I think you'd better ask the Calcutta people.'


Again, the same. The phrase 'Cricket balls, my liege.' Any suggestions?

Thank you, Jan Dvorak

Jai Siebenaler The most awesome person in y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu







From elizarev at iaas.msu.su  Fri Mar 21 22:28:24 1997
From: elizarev at iaas.msu.su (Aleksandre Yellizariev)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 22:28:24 +0000
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227029091.23782.18342336137136095839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

International Conference of South-Asia Languages 
	Care of Department of Indian Philology,
 	Institute of Asian and African Studies,
	Mokhovaya 11, Moscow, 103 009, Russia
 		tel.: +7 (095) 203 31 17
		fax : +7 (095) 203 36 47
		e-mail: volkonsk at iaas.msu.su


SECOND ANNOUNCEMENT

The Institute of Asian and African Studies, Moscow State University, is organizing an International Conference on South Asian Languages on June, 30 - July, 4, 1997. The Organizing committee has decided to widen the initially proposed focal theme, and now we invite papers on various problems of grammatical structure of the languages of South Asia. 
We also decided to shift the time of the conference in order to enable the overseas scholars to participate both in the Moscow conference and in the Oriental Congress to be held in Budapest in early July, 1997. 

Registration fee
The registration fee is US $ 70. This will cover the expenses for lunches, coffee breaks and the printing of the booklet of abstracts. 

Abstracts
The abstracts for publication should not exceed 1000 words . We would like to receive Your abstract by the end of April 1997. We would also appreciate the abstract  being sent via e-mail (one should only keep in mind that e-mail format does not always read all the transliteration symbols). In case You sent the abstract in hard copies please backup them with a floppy disk copy in Word for Windows format.

Hotels
We will try to provide the participants with appropriate hotel  accommodation. Please inform us whether You would like us to do so or whether you are going to make your own arrangements. It is possible to get decent accommodation via the University for approximately 30 US $ per day. Otherwise it is probably much more expensive.

Visas 
Participants are advised to start the visa procedure well in advance. We shall send the questionnaire  form as soon as you contact us.

Please send your application and the abstract to organizing committee: 
do. Lyudmila Khokhlova or doc. Boris Volkhonsky or Alexandre Elizariev.
Department of Indian Philology, 
Institute of Asian and African Studies,
Mokhovaya 11, Moscow, 103 009, Russia
tel.: +7 (095) 203 31 17
fax : +7 (095) 203 36 47
e-mail: volkonsk at iaas.msu.su
		khokhl at iaas.msu.su
		elizarev at iaas.msu.su

 We welcome You to Moscow!
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2688 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19970321/79fb5ae0/attachment.bin>

From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu  Sat Mar 22 18:37:05 1997
From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 10:37:05 -0800
Subject: List  on "Fold threatre, puppetry, street-plays and the like"
Message-ID: <161227029076.23782.10442193090850748091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sirs:

I would very much like to receive a copy of the booklist mentioned below.
It would be most useful if you could email it to me, but hard copy through
post is OK, too:

Peter J. Claus 
Department of Anthropology
California State University
Hayward  CA   94542
USA


Thank you.


On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Surya P. Mittal wrote:

> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:40:27 GMT
> From: "Surya P. Mittal" <spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in>
> Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: List  on "Fold threatre, puppetry, street-plays and the like"
> 
> From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.
> 
>                             E-MAIL  TRANSMISSION
> 
> 
> Our Ref No.: EME/FI-2597-96                     March 21, 1997
> 
> 
> To:
> 
> INDOLOGY
> <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> 
> 
> 
> Dear List-member,
> 
> On the request of a scholar, D. K. Agencies has created a list of 
> 27 books on "Fold theatre, puppetry, street-plays and the like".
> 
> Interested readers may please write  to us, and we shall forward 
> the book-list by email.
> 
> Best wishes to all,
> 
> 
> 						Surya P. Mittal
> 						surya at pobox.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> From:
> D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
> A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
> Najafgarh Road               E-mail: dka at pobox.com
> New Delhi - 110 059.         E-mail: custserv at dkagencies.com
> 
>            Our Webpage     http://www.dkagencies.com
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 






From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de  Sat Mar 22 11:14:11 1997
From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 12:14:11 +0100
Subject: Sylvia Murr's dissertation in English ?
Message-ID: <161227029065.23782.2965073549475684711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings,

I think the following, highly acclaimed, title needs no introduction:

Ti = A description of the character, manners and customs of the people of
     India and of their institutions, religious and civil   
Au = J. A. Dubois.

[I think the original French title goes like: Moeurs, institutions et
crmonies des peuples de l'Inde, 1817]

What I recently read was that Sylvia Murr, a French scholar, had come out
with a thesis that this famous treatise  was plagiarised from a Jesuit
missionary of earlier generation. 

So, I went searching for her thesis and found in Univ-Tuebingen catalogues:

L' indologie du Pre CoEurdoux : stratgies, apologtique et scientificit  /
par Sylvia Murr. - Paris, 1987. - VI, 250 S. : Kt.; (franz.)
(L' Inde philosophique entre Bossuet et Voltaire ; 2)
(Publications de l'cole Franaise d'Extrme-Orient ; 146)
Zugl.: Paris, Univ. III, Diss., 1982
=======================

As I am, unfortunately, not proficient in French, am looking for an English
translation of the above thesis, or any publications (in Engl) from 
Ms. Murr discussing this spurious authorship issue.

Your help is highly appreciated.

Thanks and Regards,
Sreenivas

-- 
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sat Mar 22 13:29:11 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 13:29:11 +0000
Subject: FW: Fellowship in education and development, IDS (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227029071.23782.3597324873144681219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
Forwarded message:
From:  Peter Ferguson[SMTP:P.Ferguson at SUSSEX.AC.UK]
Sent:  Tuesday, March 18, 1997 6:13 AM
To:  DEVEL-L at AMERICAN.EDU
Subject:  Job: Fellowship in education and development, IDS

18 March 1997


FELLOWSHIP IN EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT

The Institute of Development Studies, a policy research and training
institute for overseas development, is recruiting a Fellow to its
education programme.  The programme seeks to analyse the impact of
different educational strategies upon the process of development and
to understand the social, economic and institutional causes of unequal
educational outcomes amongst different groups in society.  The
successful applicant will join a multi- disciplinary group and will be
expected to contribute to the IDS's research, teaching and advisory
work.  Successful candidates will have a doctorate, a strong social
science background and some completed research on education.
Experience of research or policy work in a developing country will be
an advantage.

The appointment will be made to the Universities' Research Faculty
scales, Ranges IA or II, in the light of age and experience.

Closing date:.15 May 1997
Interview Date: 8 July 1997
Further details on our web site:
http://www.ids.ac.uk/ids/news/recruit/index.html or contact:
Mrs Lin Briggs
Institute of Development Studies
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9RE
Confidential Fax/Answerphone: (01273) 674553 (Intl +44 1273);
E-mail: qdfk2 at sussex.ac.uk
---------------------------------------------

FURTHER PARTICULARS


FELLOWSHIP in Education and Development



THE INSTITUTE

The Institute of Development Studies was founded in 1966 as a national
research and training centre on developing countries.  Thirty years
on, the IDS has an international reputation for its research on all
aspects of development.  The Institute currently has about 40 Fellows,
working with other research staff, Visiting Fellows from many
developing countries, and around 100 postgraduate students.  The IDS
houses the British Library of Development Studies, one of the best
collections of its kind in the world.  More information about the IDS
is available through the Devline home page on the internet
(http://www.ids.ac.uk/index.html).


THE POSITION

The Institute has a long and distinguished record of research on
education and development.  This research programme, in broad terms,
seeks to analyse the impact of different educational strategies upon
the process of development and to understand the social, economic and
institutional causes of unequal educational outcomes amongst different
groups in society.  Recent work has focused on primary schooling which
is a vital preparation for participation in any sort of modern
economic activity.  Christopher Colclough is directing a team of
researchers investigating why fewer girls than boys attend school in
Africa and identifying the most promising policy options for countries
committed to universalising primary schooling.  Other recent work has
included an assessment of the effectiveness of reforms to the
provision and finance of education and health services.  Paul Bennell
has re-examined the international evidence on rates-of- return to
different levels of education.  His present work evaluates the record
of vocational education and training in Africa.  Initial results
suggest that market-led reforms are not necessarily the best solution
for vocational education programmes, in the African context.

The Institute has a broadly based teaching programme at Masters and
Doctorate levels.  Its MA in Gender and Development and its two-year
M.Phil in Development Studies are both inter- disciplinary courses
which incorporate teaching on education and development. .../...


.../...

THE ROLE AND QUALIFICATIONS

In order to strengthen further the Institute's research and teaching
programme an additional Fellowship in education and development is
being established.  The successful applicant will be part of a multi-
disciplinary group, and will be expected to contribute to the
Institute's research, teaching and advisory work.  There are
opportunities to collaborate on  research projects with other
colleagues outside of the field of education.  Candidates are expected
to have a Doctorate, a strong social science background and some
completed research on education in developing countries - probably,
although not necessarily - as part of their Doctoral work.  Relevant
experience of research or policy work in a developing country will be
an advantage.  The position is a fixed term three-year contract in the
first instance and the Terms and Conditions are those associated with
the Universities' Research faculty.


TERMS AND CONDITIONS

The terms and conditions are those relating to the universities'
research faculty.  The appointment will be full-time for three years,
in the first instance, with the possibility of renewal.


SALARY

The salary will be within Grade IA or II (?14,317-?26,430, Award
Pending) of the universities' research faculty scales, to be
determined by age and experience, with opportunities for income
enhancement.


CLOSING DATE:   15 May 1997
INTERVIEW DATE: 8 July 1997


APPLICATIONS TO:

Mrs Lin Briggs
Personnel Office
Institute of Development Studies
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9RE

Confidential Fax and Answerphone: 01273-674553 [Int +44 1273]
E-mail : qdfk2 at sussex.ac.uk
(please give a postal address, as the form cannot be e-mailed to you)
These Further Particulars are also available on the IDS web site at
http://www.ids.ac.uk/ids/news/recruit/index.html






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sat Mar 22 13:35:54 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 13:35:54 +0000
Subject: Database on Indian Publ. on the Web (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227029073.23782.10008856372483170109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The "Booksearch" facility is useful.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:07:38 -0500
From: "D.K. Agencies (P) Ltd." <custserv at dkagencies.com>
To: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Database on Indian Publ. on the Web

From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.
Our Ref No.: EME/FI-2560-96                     March 19, 1997

To:
d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Dr. Dominik Wujastyk
WELLCOME INSTITUTE FOR THE
	HISTORY OF MEDICINE
183 Euston Road
LONDON NW1 2BE/UK

Dear Dr.  Wujastyk,

Our website now has a "booksearch" facility supporting author, 
title, publisher, ISBN and subject approach for all Indian 
publications accessioned at DKA in English language during the 
past five years.

Online Ordering module will soon be attached to it.

You may like to share your views on this site with other members 
of INDOLOGY.

Kind regards,

					Yours sincerely,
					Surya P. Mittal
					surya at pobox.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
Najafgarh Road               E-mail: dka at pobox.com
New Delhi - 110 059.         E-mail: custserv at dkagencies.com

           Our Webpage     http://www.dkagencies.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Sat Mar 22 13:37:15 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 13:37:15 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit and Pali Software (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227029074.23782.9544179611049433261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Of general interest:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:46:59 -0500 (EST)
From: LibPhil at aol.com
Subject: Sanskrit and Pali Software

Liberation Philology
453 Duke Street
Cambridge, Ontario
Canada N3H 3S9

Liberation Philology Software offers full sets of low-cost,
no-nonsense, user-friendly computer programs to help beginning
and intermediate students of a variety of languages master
the basics of grammar and vocabulary.
Each set of programs includes, as appropriate,
full paradigms and drills for all necessary
regular and irregular verbs, declensions of nouns,
and flash-card vocabulary quizzes of hundreds of
basic words derived from standard textbooks
or from frequency analysis of a suitable corpus.
In the self-testing quizzes which follow instruction,
students may alternate between multiple choice tests,
"fill-in-the-missing form" tests, and parsing tests.
Except as noted, the programs run on any DOS (IBM-compatible)
computer or on any Macintosh (or MacOS compatible)
computer (System 6.0.5 or higher).

Each set is individually registered to a single user.
The programs may not be "shared" with others.

We need to know your
Full Personal Name (Essential!)
Full Postal Address:
E-mail Address
Platform and disk size :
DOS (3 1/2" DD), DOS(3 1/2" HD), or MacOS (3 1/2" HD)

Be sure to affix sufficient postage for a letter to Canada.
For orders from outside Canada and the U.S.A.
e-mail LibPhil at aol.com for details

For demonstration versions of many of these programs and
shareware programs for a variety of other languages
(Basque, Cornish, Nahuatl, Romontsch, Urdu etc.)
visit our Net site
http://members.aol.com/libphil/

          Price List

* Ancient and NT Greek
          (Mac Only; 7.1 or higher; 4 MB RAM): $29.95
* Bulgarian Vocabulary
          (Mac Only; 7.1 or higher; 4 MB RAM): $10.95
* Catalan: $19.95
* Dutch: $19.95
* Esperanto Vocabulary: $10.95
* French (DOS only): $19.95
* German Vocabulary: $10.95
* Wulfilan Gothic: $19.95
* Irish Vocabulary (Modern and Medieval): $10.95
* Latin: $19.95
* Old English: $19.95
* Lithuanian Vocabulary : $10.95
* Old Norse Vocabulary: $10.95
* Old Occitan (Medieval Provencal): $19.95
* Pali Nouns (transliterated): $10.95
* Portuguese: $19.95
* Cuzco Quechua Vocabulary: $10.95
* Russian Nouns
          (Mac Only; 7.1 or higher; 4 MB RAM): $10.95
* Sanskrit (Devanagari and transliterated)
          (Mac Only; 7.1 or higher; 4 MB RAM): $29.95
* Sanskrit (transliterated) (DOS Only): $19.95
* Scottish Gaelic Vocabulary: $10.95
* Welsh Vocabulary: $10.95
* Yiddish Vocabulary (transliterated and
          in Hebrew Characters) (Mac Only): $10.95
* Yiddish Vocabulary (transliterated) (DOS Only): $10.95








From spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in  Sat Mar 22 19:05:45 1997
From: spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 14:05:45 -0500
Subject: List  on "Fold threatre, puppetry, street-plays and the like"
Message-ID: <161227029064.23782.8615401110928326611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.

                            E-MAIL  TRANSMISSION


Our Ref No.: EME/FI-2597-96                     March 21, 1997


To:

INDOLOGY
<indology at liverpool.ac.uk>



Dear List-member,

On the request of a scholar, D. K. Agencies has created a list of 
27 books on "Fold theatre, puppetry, street-plays and the like".

Interested readers may please write  to us, and we shall forward 
the book-list by email.

Best wishes to all,


						Surya P. Mittal
						surya at pobox.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
Najafgarh Road               E-mail: dka at pobox.com
New Delhi - 110 059.         E-mail: custserv at dkagencies.com

           Our Webpage     http://www.dkagencies.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu  Sat Mar 22 23:45:16 1997
From: ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu (Lawrence J. McCrea)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 17:45:16 -0600
Subject: Vikram Seth (again)
Message-ID: <161227029077.23782.1927096927318825057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In message Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:21:59 GMT,
  Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan Dvorak)  writes:

> [on a cricket match]
> 	Pran looked acros at the pavilion section and was completely taken
> aback.
> 	'Oh, Malvolio!' he said, as if he had seen Banquo instead.
> 	'What was that?' said Haresh.
> 	'Nothing. I suddenly remembered something I had to teach next term.
> Cricket balls, my liege. Something just struck me. No, I - I can't say for
> sure that I recognize him - I think you'd better ask the Calcutta people.'
>
>
> Again, the same. The phrase 'Cricket balls, my liege.' Any suggestions?

     I got this one as well.  Suddenly popped into my head this evening.  A
parody of "Tennis-balls, my liege" (Henry the Fifth, Act 1, Scene 2, line
258).

                                       Sincerely,
                                            L. McCrea





From sarin at erols.com  Sun Mar 23 14:49:02 1997
From: sarin at erols.com (sarin at erols.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 09:49:02 -0500
Subject: List  on "Fold threatre, puppetry, street-plays and the like"
Message-ID: <161227029079.23782.11350129646297354618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please send me the list via email.  Thank you, Amita Sarin







From Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch  Sun Mar 23 20:24:19 1997
From: Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch (Toru Tomabechi)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 21:24:19 +0100
Subject: XIIth IABS Conference
Message-ID: <161227029080.23782.15380270812427326045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear list members,


                CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT

The Twelfth Conference of the International Association of Buddhist Studies
will be held in Lausanne, Switzerland from August 23rd until August 28th.
For information please write to the following address:

        XIIth IABS Conference
        Dept. of Oriental and Languages and Cultures
        University of Lausanne
        B.F.S.H. 2
        CH-1015 Lausanne, Switzerland.

        E-mail: iabs99 at orient.unil.ch

The First Announcement, giving information on panels, abstracts,
registration fees, etc., has been sent out to members of the Association.
However, for those who have not received the announcement, it is also
readily obtainable from the above address or via the Conference web page: 

        http://www.unil.ch/orient/IABS/1ST-CIRC.HTM.

Information updates will also be given on the web page.

Tom J.F. Tillemans
President of the Organizing Committee

Toru Tomabechi
Secretary of the Organizing Committee

(This message is cross-posted to:
  BUDDHA-L, INDOLOGY and TIBET-L mailing lists)

      ==============================================================
      Toru TOMABECHI, Section de langues et civilisations orientales
              Faculte des Lettres, Universite de Lausanne
                    Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch
                      QWG03371 at niftyserve.or.jp
      ==============================================================





From Sfauthor at aol.com  Mon Mar 24 03:02:09 1997
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 22:02:09 -0500
Subject: Calcutta SF
Message-ID: <161227029081.23782.9804062568744983005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


My science fiction novelette about Calcutta in the year 2070 has just
appeared in the following anthology. I managed to weave a fair number of
Sanskrit terms into the story.

_Death Looked Down._ In _New Altars: Science Fiction and Fantasy Stories
about Religion and Spirituality,_ edited by Dawn Albright and Sandra J.
Hutchinson. Arlington: Angelus Press, 1997.
ISBN: 0-9648653-6-X, $14.95, 232 pp, tp.

The publisher's address is:

Angelus Press
1021 Massachusetts Ave
Arlington MA 02174-4503
dawnwich at world.std.com



Brian Dana Akers
http://www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com






From elfn at antares.com.br  Mon Mar 24 08:23:26 1997
From: elfn at antares.com.br (Edgard Leite)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 00:23:26 -0800
Subject: karma
Message-ID: <161227029083.23782.5193896690079820798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings.
I'm looking for recent bibliography about karma and rebirth in early 
upanisads and arcaic buddhism.I would very much appreciate any 
suggestions from the members os the list.
Thanks in advance,

Prof.Dr. Edgard Leite
Department of History
Rio de Janeiro State University

elfn at antares.com.br





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Mon Mar 24 08:50:31 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 03:50:31 -0500
Subject: Question on Patanjali (Kashmir and P's MB)
Message-ID: <161227029086.23782.11616779459125627296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Aklujkar,

The following may not be exactly what you requested. But they give some
background about how some of the Tamil texts were preserved.

Tamilnadu ceased to be ruled by any Tamil king circa 13th century. So, if
there was any tradition of association of any text with any particular
principality or kingdom, it is lost. But there are stories of some kings
playing important roles in the search for some texts and creation of some
texts.

The earliest story deals with the academy of poets in Madurai. One of the
Classical Tamil (CT) poems by a Pandyan king has him swearing that if he does
not defeat his enemies let the poets who have ?mAGguTi marutan? as their
leader not sing his kingdom (puRanAnURu 72). This is the closest to an
indication of a group of poets in the CT period. In the list of the poets of
the CT, one can see several from Madurai. Associated with the Pandyas is the
story of how a Pandyan king was dejected that even though they had the
grammatical texts dealing with phonology and morphology, they had lost the
grammatical texts dealing with the ?subject matter? of Tamil literature. Then
a text, ?iRaiyanAr akapporuL?, dealing with this is ?authored? by ziva
himself and is discovered in the temple at Madurai. Zvelebil has discussed
all this in his Smile of Murugan. (I do not have Smile of Murugan. Ganesan on
this list may be able to give you the exact reference.) A shorter discussion
of the Academy and  ?iRaiyanAr akapporuL? is given in ?The Eight Anthologies?
by John Ralston Marr.

In the medeival period and later, the association of Tamil with zaivism had a
major influence on the survival of Tamil literature, music and dance
traditions. Because the post-Classical Chola kings were devotees of ziva,
there are stories of their involvement in some texts. In ?tiruvAcakam?,
mANikkavAcakar (ca. 9th century CE) in his pORRit tiruvakaval, praises ziva
as belonging to southern or Tamil country, but Lord of people all over
(?tennATuTaiya zivanE pORRi, ennATTavarkkum iRaivA pORRi?). In fact, whenever
Tamil zaivites gather to worship ziva, they start with this. (I do not have
the exact reference. Glenn Yocum has done work on ?tiruvAcakam?.) This
linkage between Tamil and zaivism was strengthened further during the reign
of the Cholas who came after mANikkavAcakar. I am giving below two stories
narrated by Zvelebil in his work Ananda-tAnDava of ziva-sadAnRttamUrtti.

?However, one literary Tamil legend at least should be mentioned here because
of its close connection with Chidambaram, and because of its importance for
Tamil culture. There was a boy-devotee, nampi ANTAr nampi of tirunAraiyUr (9
miles southwest of Chidambaram). His patron-deity VinAyaka (pollAppiLLaiyAr)
revealed to him a maha rahasyam, ?great secret? : the Tamil Veda, i.e., the
hymns of the Tamil zaiva saints (tEvAram), including the famous hagiography
of these saints by Cuntarar, is hidden in a sealed room in the Chidambaram
temple on the north-western side of the sabha where Lord naTarAja dances
forever. Accompanied by the Chola king Rajaraja Apaya KulacEkara (probably
KulOttunga I, 11th Cent.), nampi ANTAr proceeded to Chidambaram, the sealed
door was opened, and the holy Tamil books were found hidden under ant-nests.
nampi ANTAr arranged the hymns in seven books, in a work entitled tEvAram,
and in addition composed the lives of the saints entitled
tiruttoNTarTiruvantAti which he based on Cuntarar?s short biography (called
tiruttoNTattokai) composed some two centuries earlier at tiruvArUr.......
.........
Not only the origin- or rather, the rediscovery - of tEvAram but also the
origin of the ?national? Tamil purANa, the periyapurANam, is intimately
connected with the lore of Chidambaram. 

The Chola king AnapAya (kulOttunga II, 12th Cent.) had for his minister in
tiruvArUr a man called aruNmozittEvar alias cEkkizAr. Regretting the great
respect paid by his ruler to a Jaina epic, cEkkizAr resolved to narrate the
glories of zaiva saints, and he left tiruvArUR, went to Chidambaram and
there, with the grace of Lord naTarAja, composed, in the thousand pillared
hall of the temple, his periyapurANam. He commenced the work on the Arudra
asterism day in the month of Chaitra and completed it on the same day next
year. He also spent the rest of the days in Chidambaram.? (Zvelebil, 1985,
pp. 59-60)

(Coincidentally, it is Chidambaram where Patanjali is supposed to have come
and watched ziva dance.)

I think the re-discovery of tEvAram should have happened at least by 10th
century. According to tradition, when the hymns were rediscovered, nobody
knew what were the ?pan?s or ragas associated with the hymns. So the king
located a lady, matanka cULAmaNiyAr, belonging to the lineage of the
bard-saint ?tirunIlakaNTa yAzppANar? (one of the 63 zaiva saints) and had her
set the ?pan?s for each hymn. The Chola kings set up endowments for these
hymns to be sung in the temples. In Rajaraja Chola?s inscription no. 66 of
the Tanjore temple, Rajaraja sets up endowments for singing ?Ariyam?
(Sanskrit) as well as Tamil which must refer to tEvAram hymns. In the same
inscription, Rajaraja sets up endowments for about 500 dancing ladies and
other temple employees including bards. (Ironically, even though the hymns
were set to music by a female of the bardic community, the people who became
the upper caste singers (called OtuvAr) in the zaivite temples forbade the
learning of music by women of their own caste.)

After the control of Tamilnadu passed into non-Tamil hands, it was the
zaivite mutts which largely fostered the study of Tamil. These mutts were
controlled by upper caste non-brahmins. (Of course, they fostered the study
of Sanskrit also.) The mutts controlled major temple complexes and
considerable amount of land. As for one of the major mutts, in 1863, ?The
pandarasanidhi of the non-Brahman math at Thiruvadathorai in Tanjore, for
example, controlled 3000 acres in his home district, 25,000 in Tinnevelly,
1,000 in Madura and lesser amounts in several other districts. He also
possessed rights of appointments of priests and trustees to fifteen other
temples each with its own considerable endowments.? (in page 185 of The
emergence of provincial politics: The Madras Presidency 1870-1920 by D. A.
Washbrook). It was this particular mutt at tiruvAvaTutuRai which had the
great Tamil scholar Meenakshisundaram Pillai, an upper caste non-Brahmin, as
its AstAna vidvAn. U. V. Swaminatha Iyer, a SmArtta Brahmin,  who played a
major role in the rediscovery of Tamil Classical Literature was supported by
this mutt and was a student of Pillai. The mutt had a library where a lot of
manuscripts were available and U.V. Swaminatha Iyer made good use of them. He
has written a wonderful autobiography in Tamil which gives a lot of
information about Tamil scholarship in late 19th and early 20th century. This
has been translated into English by Kamil Zvelebil as ?The Story of My Life:
An Autobiography of Dr. U. V. Swaminatha Iyer". In fact, even Zvelebil traces
his Tamil scholarship lineage to Pillai.(See his "Companion Studies to the
history of Tamil Literature")

In the autobiography, U. V. Swaminatha Iyer describes a religious custom
among the Jains of Tamilnadu which involved their copying manuscripts and
donating them. But for this custom, CilappatikAram, the national epic of
Tamilnadu would have been lost. Iyer also describes the efforts he undertook
searching for manuscripts all over Tamilnadu and how manuscripts of important
works which he once saw were later lost.

The OtuvAr community of tEvAram singers also played a major role in the
maintenance of the Tamil music and dance. It is their singing which helped
correlate the Carnatic music ragas with their Sanskrit names and the ancient
Tamil ?pan? counterparts. Also, under the patronage of Maharashtrian rulers
of Tanjore, Tulaja (II?) and Serfoji II, four OtuvAr brothers, Ponniah,
Chinnaiah, Vadivelu and Sivananandam called the Tanjore Quartette, formalized
the Bharatanatyam dance format of Tamilnadu. (In Bharatanatyam performances,
there is almost always an item describing the dance of ziva at Chidambaram
which may allude to Patanjali.) 

I have to note that even though most of the extant zaivite hymns were
produced by Brahmins, these hymns were not given much importance by the
SmArtta Brahmins who gave importance to Sanskrit texts instead. On the other
hand, the Sri Vaishnavites who elevated Tamil hymns of AzvArs to a level on
par with the Sanskrit  Vedas severed the link between the hymns of AzvArs and
their Tamil ?pan?s and they did not seem to have the identification of
Vaishnavism with Tamilnadu like the zaivites.    

I think the role of zaivite mutts and their role in the Tamil field could be
a dissertation topic in itself.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards.

S. Palaniappan  





From steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE  Mon Mar 24 07:22:36 1997
From: steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 09:22:36 +0200
Subject: karma
Message-ID: <161227029085.23782.17723359629345380655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:23:08 GMT, Edgard Leite wrote:

>Greetings.
>I'm looking for recent bibliography about karma and rebirth in early 
>upanisads and arcaic buddhism.I would very much appreciate any 
>suggestions from the members os the list.
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Prof.Dr. Edgard Leite
>Department of History
>Rio de Janeiro State University
>
>elfn at antares.com.br

See, e.g, the just published paper by Klaus Butzenberger: "Ancient Indian 
Conceptions on Man's Destiny After Death. The Beginnings and the Early 
Development of the Doctrine of Transmigration. I", in: Berliner 
Indologische Studien 9/10 (1996), pp. 55-118.

Roland Steiner

Fachgebiet Indologie (FB 11) der Philipps-Universitaet
Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6
D-35032 Marburg, Germany
Tel.: 06421/28 2184
Fax: 06421/28 8913
email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de





From Mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu  Mon Mar 24 15:11:30 1997
From: Mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu (Mehta, Shailendra)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 10:11:30 -0500
Subject: An extraordinary claim! Is it correct?
Message-ID: <161227029093.23782.8929963592237954988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS DEMAND EXTRAORDINARY PROOF:


My colleague Alok Chaturvedi, recently pointed me to the following
source:Exploratory Papers - 2Scientific Knowledge in the Vedas. 1995by
Padmakar Vishu VartakPublished by the Dharam Hinduja International
Center of Indic Research, Delhi. Distributed by Nag Publishers.
Delhi.where Padmakar Vishnu Vartak writes (on page 96):Rig Veda
1-50-4taraNirvishwadarshato jyotishkridasi sUryya |vishwamAbhAsi rocanam
|| 4SayaNa's commentary on ittatha cha smaryate - yojanAnAm sahasre dve
dve shate dve ca yojane |ekena nimiSArdhena kramamANa namostute
||"SAyaNAcArya writes: 'It is remembered that the sunlight travels two
thousand twohundred and two Yojanas in half a Nimesha'."One Yojana is
equal to 9 miles, 110 yards = 9 1/6 miles = 9.0625 according to
onepublication of the Government of India. According to MahAbhArata,
SAnti Parva, 231,half a nimesha is 8/75 seconds. If calculated on this
data the velocity of light comesto 187084.1 miles per second. According
to Michelson it is 187372.5 miles per second.""Sir Monier Williams gives
one Yojana equal to 4 Krosha = 9 miles. Taking 1 Yojana = 9miles, the
velocity comes to 186413.22 miles per second. The well accepted
popularscientific figure is 186300 miles per second."Given that Kepler
and Decartes believed the traditional Greek view that the velocity
oflight was infinite, given that in the Western Hemisphere the first
ballpark figure (touse an Americanism) was only arrived at in the late
17th century by Ole Romer using thedata on the satellites of Jupiter in
conjunction with Cassini's estimate of the orbit ofthe earth, and given
that the first reasonably accurate velocity of light was estimatedby
James Bradley to be 189,000 miles per second and that too only in the
18thcentury, we have a true puzzle at hand. However, extraordinary
claims demand extraordinary proof, and so I checked with another one of
my distinguished colleagues to verify the various steps involved. I
couldthink of three and he concurred on each:1. Is the quotation from
SAyaNa authentic? It seems so.2. Is the translation reasonable? My
suspicion is yes. It is straight-forwardlyquantitative and so variant
readings are probably not possible.3. Are the units correct? A yojana is
taken to be several miles, and a nimesha is well,just a blink of an eye,
and a fifth of second is a reasonable estimate of that.So I am left with
one conclusion - the speed of light was known quite accurately
inmedieval India and perhaps even in ancient India. However, I still
have not been ableto digest this claim, since it is so extraordinary.
Obviously, we need to direct as much skeptical inquiry against it as we
possibly can.And what better place to begin than Indology? What do you
think?Shailendra Raj Mehtamehta at mgmt.purdue.edu





From steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE  Mon Mar 24 10:52:00 1997
From: steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 12:52:00 +0200
Subject: karma
Message-ID: <161227029090.23782.3197118794919737641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr March,
I don't think that this article is available on the internet. The "Berliner 
Indologische Studien" is an indological journal edited by the "Institut f!r 
indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte der freien Universit!t Berlin". You 
may send your order to the publisher:
Dr. Inge Wezler, Verlag fuer Orientalistische Fachpublikationen, Bernhard-
Ihnen-Str. 18, D-21465 Reinbeck, Germany (Tel.: +40-7226731; Fax: +40-
7229320).

The address of Priv.-Doz. Dr. Klaus Butzenberger runs:
Institut fuer Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
Freie Universitaet Berlin
Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a
D-14195 Berlin
Germany

All the best,
Roland Steiner.





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Mon Mar 24 16:13:15 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 16:13:15 +0000
Subject: An extraordinary claim! Is it correct?
Message-ID: <161227029095.23782.1856803509289616155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The unit of time called a nimisha is not well defined.  And the verse is
not talking about the speed of light, but the speed of the Sun.

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From march at magnet.com.au  Mon Mar 24 10:48:46 1997
From: march at magnet.com.au (Michael March)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 21:48:46 +1100
Subject: karma
Message-ID: <161227029088.23782.16972555852599765344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>See, e.g, the just published paper by Klaus Butzenberger: "Ancient Indian 
>Conceptions on Man's Destiny After Death. The Beginnings and the Early 
>Development of the Doctrine of Transmigration. I", in: Berliner 
>Indologische Studien 9/10 (1996), pp. 55-118.
>
>Roland Steiner

Mr Steiner,

Would this artcile be available on the internet? If not, how could I receive
a copy?

Regards

Michael March
march at magnet.com.au

>
>Fachgebiet Indologie (FB 11) der Philipps-Universitaet
>Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6
>D-35032 Marburg, Germany
>Tel.: 06421/28 2184
>Fax: 06421/28 8913
>email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de
>
>
>






From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu  Wed Mar 26 00:03:38 1997
From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 16:03:38 -0800
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029103.23782.220841921671474500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Mr. Palaniappan's interesting historical account of Maratha patronage of
classical music along with the introduction of western instruments brought
to mind an interesting conversation I once had with my friend Adheesh
Sathaye...

Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music (Carnatic) is
played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the arch of the foot?
I find this interesting because I was always taught never to touch items
associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper, and musical instruments,
with your feet.
The instrument can just as well be played in the Western "upright"
manner... Might this have to do with it being a Western instrument?
-chandan









From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA  Tue Mar 25 22:29:10 1997
From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 16:29:10 -0600
Subject: Job Opportunity
Message-ID: <161227029098.23782.11910351566668474478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

List Members:
There is a job opportunity here at the University of Manitoba, but it is 
not specifically for South Asianists. It is for people in women's studies 
and the humanities. Therefore, South Asianists who have expertise in 
those areas would probably be able to apply. A copy of the advertisement 
is at this web site:
	 http://www.umanitoba.ca/programs/womans_studies/job.html

The application deadline is 30 April. 

This is a tenure-track, full-time position. 

I know nothing more about this position than I have already described 
above. Questions about it should be directed to the Women's Studies 
Program at the University of Manitoba. 

Best,
Bob Hueckstedt

Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies
fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797






From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu  Wed Mar 26 00:51:35 1997
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 16:51:35 -0800
Subject: references
Message-ID: <161227029105.23782.6689100266780309120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:37 PM 3/25/97 GMT, Sushil Mittal wrote:
>
>
>I am having difficulty referencing the following three passages in the
>Upanisads (because the translations I am working with are so different).
>Can someone please provide the references. Thanks a lot.


>(3) from Brhadaranyaka Upanisad (   ) : "The Self is described as not
>this, not that." 

Actually, the text says: "not this not this," unless there is another quote.

sa eSa neti nety AtmA.   BAU 3.9.26, and again at 4.2.4, 4.4.22, and 4.5.15.


Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
UC, Berkeley






From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Mar 25 16:15:02 1997
From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 17:15:02 +0100
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029097.23782.12555914172592546230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hallo,
does anyone have information about the introduction of European 
musical instruments in India, particularly in the 19th cent. by 
missionaries? 
Any information would be welcome.
Gabriele 
----------------------------------------------------------
Dr Gabriele Zeller
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
72016 Tuebingen
Tel:+49-7071-2974030
Fax:+49-7071-293123
----------------------------------------------------------





From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA  Tue Mar 25 23:12:59 1997
From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 18:12:59 -0500
Subject: references
Message-ID: <161227029100.23782.7855378653483912064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



I am having difficulty referencing the following three passages in the
Upanisads (because the translations I am working with are so different).
Can someone please provide the references. Thanks a lot.

(1) from Manduka Upanisad (   ): "The syllable OM, which is the 
imperishable brahman is the universe."

(2) from Manduka Upanisad (   ): "The Fourth, the Self, is OM, the
indivisible syllable. This syllable is unutterable and beyond mind. In it
the manifold universe disappears. It is the supreme good--One without a
second. Whosoever knows OM, the Self, becomes the Self." 

(3) from Brhadaranyaka Upanisad (   ) : "The Self is described as not
this, not that." 



Cordially,

Sushil Mittal
IIIS/WHP










From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Mar 25 23:20:50 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 18:20:50 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029101.23782.505127974891950571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-03-25 10:44:56 EST, you write:

<< Hallo,
 does anyone have information about the introduction of European 
 musical instruments in India, particularly in the 19th cent. by 
 missionaries? 
 Any information would be welcome.
 Gabriele 
 ----------------------------------------------------------
 Dr Gabriele Zeller
 Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
 Wilhelmstr. 32
 72016 Tuebingen
 Tel:+49-7071-2974030
 Fax:+49-7071-293123
 ----------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
 ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
 From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk  Tue Mar 25 10:44:31 1997
 Return-Path: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
 Received: from mailhub.liverpool.ac.uk (mail.liv.ac.uk [138.253.100.84]) by
emin22.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17138; Tue, 25 Mar 1997
10:44:08 -0500
 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by mail.liv.ac.uk 
           with Local-SMTP (PP); Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:42:49 +0000
 Message-Id: <9703251510.AA05087 at outmail.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>
 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:42:33 GMT
 Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
 Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
 Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
 Precedence: bulk
 From: Gabriele Zeller <gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de>
 To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
 Subject: european musical instruments in India
 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
 X-Comment: Indology mailing list
  >>

During the Maratta rule in Tanjore, there was a lot of patronage to Indian
Classical music. Interestingly, the ruler Serfoji II (if I remember right)
was entrusted to the care of Danish missionary Schwartz when he was a boy.
Scwartz had earlier taken up the responsibility of bringing up one
vEtanAyakam from a family who had converted to Christianity from being
zaivite OtuvArs. Both grew up together. When Serfoji became the ruler, his
cohort - now called vEtanAyakam zastry- was a member of his court. He
produced many works in Tamil with Christian themes. Many of his musical
compositions have been included in the hymn book of the Church of South
India. (It is a pity that Tamil protestants have lost the tradition of
singing those hymns in the Carnatic Music ragas as the composer intended.
There is now a revival of South Indian Classical music in the teaching of the
Theological Seminary in Madurai.)
Violin/fiddle became a part of Carnatic music during this period. One of the
famous four brothers called the Tanjore quartette, vaTivElu by name,  became
an expert in violin playing. In a book, "Thanjai Peruvudayan Perisai" by
Sangeetha Kalanidhi K. Ponnayya Pillai (a descendant of one of the brothers),
there is a description of how a Western missionary taught vaTivElu how to
play western notes. Then vaTivElu wanted to play Carnatic Music with that
instrument. Then he practiced for two years and then gave a performance in
the Tanjore court. The book gives supportive quotes from books, "Hindustani
Music' by Dr. Soureenra Mohana Tagore and "South Indian Musical Record" by
Captain Day.

Later Travancore ruler Swathi Tirunal invited the brothers to his court for a
violin performance by vaTivelu and then presented him with a fiddle made of
ivory.  

Some of the historical background is given in "Tyagaraja and the renewal of
tradition : translations and reflections" by William J. Jackson. Indira
Petersen of Mt. Holyoke college was working on a project involving the works
of vEtanAyakam zastry and the general cultural climate in Tanjore in that
period. I do not know what the status of that project is. Probably the
Christian Literature Society in Madras may have some material. 

You can also refer to the following book:
Tanjore as a seat of music, during the 17th, 18th and 19th
centuries. by S. Seetha

Regards.

S. Palaniappan






From jaybee at tm.net.my  Wed Mar 26 04:50:10 1997
From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 20:50:10 -0800
Subject: desire
Message-ID: <161227029279.23782.319054478814936794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wish to discuss on subjects pertaining to certain Indological subjects.
Have you got a discussion forum? Or a chat session? But the latter has to be a serious one.
Thank you.





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Mar 26 05:19:59 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 00:19:59 -0500
Subject: Question on Patanjali (Kashmir and P's MB) and kApyas
Message-ID: <161227029112.23782.13925269878914872676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While I eagerly await the paper from Dr. Aklujkar, I have come across an
interesting reference. I have not succeeded in verifying the source of it. 

In "The BrhadAranyaka Upanishad: An interpretative Exposition" by Swami
Krishnananda, published by the Divine Life Society in 1984, in discussing the
passage 3.3.1 where pataJcala kApya's daughter is possessed by a gandharva,
the translation-cum-commentary reads as follows: "We came to the house of a
great Master by name PataJcala, of the line of Kapi (not Patanjali Maharishi
of Yoga. He is also called KApya)." 

In many of the books on Yoga SUtras I consulted, I did not find any reference
to pataJjali being a kApya. If the reference is true, then it might provide
some additional support to pataJjali being from the northwest. (I assume that
the tradition views both pataJjalis as one.)

Interestingly, there seems to be variant readings of the name of the kApya
mentioned in the upaniSad mentioned above, namely, pataJcala and pataJjala.
This seems to indicate, if the grammarian's name is related to the names in
the upaniSad, then there is a Prakritism in his own name (with c > j after
the nasal J).
Is it not ironic that pataJjali was oblivious to this Prakritism in his own
name, when his attitude towards Prakrit was as described in Deshpande's
"Sanskrit and Prakrit"?

Can 'possession' by a gandharva be taken to suggest that the wife mentioned
in passage 3.7.1 of the above upaniSad is at least culturally non-Vedic?

Regards.

S. Palaniappan  





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Wed Mar 26 06:44:41 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 01:44:41 -0500
Subject: Questions on the name kApya/kApeya in upaniSads
Message-ID: <161227029114.23782.17555804180420992595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>> tolkAppiyan, the author of the earliest extant grammar in Tamil, has been
>> said to be of Aryan origin by some Tamil scholars like tevaneyap pAvANar. 
>> The name tolkAppiyan is derived from a family name kAppiyan. I wonder if 
>> there is any connection between the Tamil tolkAppiyan and Sanskrit kApya 
>> or kApeya.
>>
>> I would appreciate any explanation or comments regarding the Sanskrit
>> material. Thanks.
>>
>> S.Palaniappan

Please see the detailed entry on TolkAppiyam in Kamil Zvelebil's "Lexicon 
of Tamil Literature" (E.J.Brill, Leiden, 1995).  It contains a very brief 
discussion of the name TolkAppiyar, the author's possible Brahmanical/Jaina 
connections, and his connections with the Aindra Sanskrit grammatical 
tradition.  

As regards the kAvya, kAppiya in the name TolkAppiyar, the historian 
N.Subrahmanian in his book "The Brahmin in the Tamil country" has a 
somewhat different conjecture... it's elaborate too ;-) 
But since he is a very sober historian on the whole, his suggestions are
at least intriguing.  He connects kAppiya-kAvya in this name, and the 
kAppiyakuDi-kAvyakula mentioned in the CilappatikAram, with a pro-S'ukra 
(i.e. pro-kavi... hence kAvya) sect of Brahmins who he suggests were the
earliest Brahmins to migrate to the Tamil regions in the dim past.

See also P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's remarks on TolkAppiyar in his "History 
of the Tamils: from the earliest times to 600 A.D." which make for very 
interesting reading.  Although his book is quite dated, his critical yet 
humanistic approach to writing history is very striking.

of two ancient Indian grammatical traditions: the Tamil TolkAppiyam compared 
with the Sanskrit Rk-, Taittiriya Pratis'Akhyas, Apis'ali s'IkSa, and the 
aSTAdhyAyI" is invaluable.

-Srini.





From Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch  Wed Mar 26 03:20:43 1997
From: Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch (Toru Tomabechi)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 04:20:43 +0100
Subject: XIIth IABS Conference
Message-ID: <161227029111.23782.6224403063144459066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Matsumura san,

> I tried to access the following address you give in your announcement.
> 
>  http://www.unil.ch/orient/IABS/1ST-CIRC.HTM.
> 
> Unvortunately I have got back the message "Not found - file doesn't exist
> or is read protected"

Maybe you typed the URL incorrectly.
(note that the URL contains CAPITAL letters)

Or, you typed a period at the end of the URL, which is not part of the
address...

Please check the same address again. If it doesn't work, then try
through our principal page:

        http://www.unil.ch/orient

then follow the link.

All the best

Toru Tomabechi
University of Lausanne






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Mar 26 11:59:16 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 06:59:16 -0500
Subject: Question on Patanjali (Kashmir and P's MB) and kApyas
Message-ID: <161227029117.23782.1078225780107508579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	It seems most likely that patancala and patanjali are dialectal
variants as assumed by Palaniappan.  While strictly within Sanskrit, both
nc and nj can be found, these two combinations would probably suggest
different regional affiliations within the range of Prakrit.  The word
Patancala is probably of Northwestern Prakrit origin, both because of the
cluster nc, and the retention of an intervocalic -t-, the occurrence of
-l- would show a more complicated situation.  An -r- in its place would
have made it a more conclusively northwestern Prakrit word.  As the word
stands, it has linguistically mixed features.  The word Patanjali with its
-nj- would indicate a slightly easterly Prakrit, but its retention of the
intervocalic -t- makes it complicated.  I suspect that here we have
evidence of Brahmin dialects which constituted some sort of interlanguage
between Sanskrit and Prakrit, partially carrying features of both.  
Sanskrit being representative of a massive dialect mixture, the word could
be found anywhere in Sanskrit.  
	The evidence of Prakritic usages cited in the Mahaabhaa.sya needs
to be carefully evaluated for its regional affiliation.  At first glance,
the l-prominent usages helayo helayo ascribed to asuras, and the change of
.Rtaka to .Ltaka ascribed to the dialects of the Brahmin women seems to
point more in the direction of the region of Magadhi Prakrit.  However,
forms like aa.navayati cited by Patanjali, due to their retention of the
intervocalic -t-, again suggest an interlanguage between Sanskrit and
Prakrit.
		Madhav Deshpande
	

On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

> While I eagerly await the paper from Dr. Aklujkar, I have come across an
> interesting reference. I have not succeeded in verifying the source of it. 
> 
> In "The BrhadAranyaka Upanishad: An interpretative Exposition" by Swami
> Krishnananda, published by the Divine Life Society in 1984, in discussing the
> passage 3.3.1 where pataJcala kApya's daughter is possessed by a gandharva,
> the translation-cum-commentary reads as follows: "We came to the house of a
> great Master by name PataJcala, of the line of Kapi (not Patanjali Maharishi
> of Yoga. He is also called KApya)." 
> 
> In many of the books on Yoga SUtras I consulted, I did not find any reference
> to pataJjali being a kApya. If the reference is true, then it might provide
> some additional support to pataJjali being from the northwest. (I assume that
> the tradition views both pataJjalis as one.)
> 
> Interestingly, there seems to be variant readings of the name of the kApya
> mentioned in the upaniSad mentioned above, namely, pataJcala and pataJjala.
> This seems to indicate, if the grammarian's name is related to the names in
> the upaniSad, then there is a Prakritism in his own name (with c > j after
> the nasal J).
> Is it not ironic that pataJjali was oblivious to this Prakritism in his own
> name, when his attitude towards Prakrit was as described in Deshpande's
> "Sanskrit and Prakrit"?
> 
> Can 'possession' by a gandharva be taken to suggest that the wife mentioned
> in passage 3.7.1 of the above upaniSad is at least culturally non-Vedic?
> 
> Regards.
> 
> S. Palaniappan  
> 
> 






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Wed Mar 26 14:18:59 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 08:18:59 -0600
Subject: Tamil spoof request - Jana Gana Mana ...
Message-ID: <161227029118.23782.3681444385179688762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




3/27/97

Hi Friends,

I have a tamil poem by Kirubananda Variyar in the identical tune of 
"Jana Gana Mana Adhinaayaka ...", India's national anthem.
Variyar praises Murugan of six paDai veeDu temples in that song.
Of course. who else will he sing?

In the high school days, I have heard a spoof on our national anthem.
It has words like " ... iDli, vaDai, saambaar ..." in the tune of 
"Jana gana mana ...". A gentle mocking imitation.

If anyone remembers, please mail it to me.

Thanks,
N. Ganesan
nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov


***********************************************************************

This morning, I translated a classic haiku.

A child is crying,
asking, "Get it down for me!"
- the full moon hanging.
                          Issa, (1763-1823), Edo period poet of Japan
                     

azhutha kuzhanthai vizhainthathu - "vaanil
ezhuthingaL thaa, thanakku" enRu.
                 
                     kuRal by N. Ganesan

nilaac cORu uuTTal, ambuliyai viLaiyaaDa azhaiththal - 
nam marabukaL allavO?!


**********************************************************************









From srini at engin.umich.edu  Wed Mar 26 14:55:29 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 09:55:29 -0500
Subject: Questions on the name kApya/kApeya in upaniSads
Message-ID: <161227029120.23782.892180930303923992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Esteemed list members, please bear with me as I repost
this... it looks like a line got munged from my previous
post.

_________________

>> tolkAppiyan, the author of the earliest extant grammar in Tamil, has been
>> said to be of Aryan origin by some Tamil scholars like tevaneyap pAvANar. 
>> The name tolkAppiyan is derived from a family name kAppiyan. I wonder if 
>> there is any connection between the Tamil tolkAppiyan and Sanskrit kApya 
>> or kApeya.
>>
>> I would appreciate any explanation or comments regarding the Sanskrit
>> material. Thanks.
>>
>> S.Palaniappan
 
Please see the detailed entry on TolkAppiyam in Kamil Zvelebil's 
"Lexicon of Tamil Literature" (E.J.Brill, Leiden, 1995).  It contains 
a brief discussion of the name TolkAppiyar itself, and the author's 
possible Brahmanical/Jaina connections, and connections with the 
(Aindra) Sanskrit grammatical tradition.  
 
As regards the kAppiya in the name TolkAppiyar, the historian 
N.Subrahmanian in his book "The Brahmin in the Tamil country" 
has a somewhat different conjecture... it's elaborate too ;-) 
But since he is a very sober historian on the whole, his 
suggestions are at least intriguing.  He connects kAppiya 
(< Skt. kAvya) in this name, and the kAppiyakuDi-kAvyakula 
mentioned in the CilappatikAram, with a pro-S'ukra (i.e. 
pro-kavi... hence kAvya) sect of Brahmins who he suggests 
were the earliest Brahmins to migrate to the Tamil regions 
in the dim past.
 
See also P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's remarks on TolkAppiyar in his 
"History of the Tamils: from the earliest times to 600 A.D." 
which make for very interesting reading.  Although his book 
is quite dated, his critical yet humanistic approach to writing 
history is very striking.
 
Study of two ancient Indian grammatical traditions: the Tamil 
TolkAppiyam compared with the Sanskrit Rk-, Taittiriya Pratis'Akhyas, 
Apis'ali s'IkSa, and the aSTAdhyAyI" is invaluable.
 
-Srini.





From prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp  Wed Mar 26 01:30:31 1997
From: prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp (prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 10:30:31 +0900
Subject: XIIth IABS Conference
Message-ID: <161227029108.23782.16767741222865194431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At  8:38 PM 97.3.23 +0000, Toru Tomabechi wrote:

Dear Dr, Tomabechi,

I tried to access the following address you give in your announcement.

 http://www.unil.ch/orient/IABS/1ST-CIRC.HTM.

Unvortunately I have got back the message "Not found - file doesn't exist
or is read protected"

If you tell me how to get more information on the conference, I am grateful
to you.

Regards
Hisashi Matsumura  
Hisashi MATSUMURA   prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp






From mgansten at sbbs.se  Wed Mar 26 09:54:40 1997
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 10:54:40 +0100
Subject: Lunar parallax and Indian astronomy
Message-ID: <161227029115.23782.15805960587121809762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is a question for all pancaanga-wallahs on the list: Due to the
relative closeness of the Moon to the Earth, the Moon's apparent zodiacal
longitude will sometimes differ by anything upto one degree depending on
whether the calculation is based on the centre of the Earth or on any given
location on the Earth's surface. (That, at least, is how I have understood
the term "lunar parallax".) Obviously, this could affect the time of the
Moon's entry into a given nak.satra by a couple of hours. So what did the
ancient Indian astronomers do -- did they base their calculations on the
Moon's position as seen from the place of observation, or did they use
formulae involving the Earth's centre? And what is common practice today?

I would greatly appreciate any elucidation from those who know their
Suryasiddhanta (or whatever) better than I -- or even just a pointer to
which person/s or book/s I might consult. 

Thanks in advance,
Martin Gansten

mgansten at sbbs.se






From srini at engin.umich.edu  Wed Mar 26 15:57:16 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 10:57:16 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029123.23782.17273690260906319722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music (Carnatic) is
        played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the arch of the foot?
        I find this interesting because I was always taught never to touch items
        associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper, and musical instruments,
        with your feet.
 
It is stomping on them that is to be avoided...  but,
resting them on the ankle... naaah, that's just fine ;-)
 
        The instrument can just as well be played in the Western "upright"
        manner... Might this have to do with it being a Western instrument?
 
Wow... are you serious ?  It has nothing to do with
the instrument being Western.
 
I am also curious about your claim that it can played
as well in the upright manner...  to the best of my
knowledge, no Carnatic violinist of any repute has played
it holding it in this manner, including those who have 
had training in Western classical violin.  

There are photos of the great Dvaram Venkataswami Naidu 
holding the violin in the Western style... apparently, 
he played some music too rather than just hold a pose... 
but that seems to have been just an exception.
 
A few have explained that the holding position in Carnatic 
music has to do with the left hand techique - vAmAcAra ;-)
required for playing the various ornamentations in the
music... it does somewhat constrain the right hand but
the great violinists have always figured a way out. 

Probably, the practice started off with a requirement that 
the violinist be seated while playing in an ensemble.
 
-Srini.





From dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au  Wed Mar 26 01:00:39 1997
From: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au (dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 11:00:39 +1000
Subject: references
Message-ID: <161227029106.23782.8160817875478382524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>
>I am having difficulty referencing the following three passages in the
>Upanisads (because the translations I am working with are so different).
>Can someone please provide the references. Thanks a lot.
>
>(1) from Manduka Upanisad (   ): "The syllable OM, which is the 
>imperishable brahman is the universe."
>
>(2) from Manduka Upanisad (   ): "The Fourth, the Self, is OM, the
>indivisible syllable. This syllable is unutterable and beyond mind. In it
>the manifold universe disappears. It is the supreme good--One without a
>second. Whosoever knows OM, the Self, becomes the Self." 
>
>(3) from Brhadaranyaka Upanisad (   ) : "The Self is described as not
>this, not that." 
>
>
>
>Cordially,
>
>Sushil Mittal
>IIIS/WHP


(1)  The first passage that you quote seems to be a conflation of the first
two verses of the Mandukya.

ie. M1   ...   aum ity etad aksharam idaM sarvaM
             ...  "Aum, this very syllable, is all this."

and M2  ... sarvaM hy etad brahmA ...
              ... "All this is verily brahma"
(which is itself a quotation from the Brhadaranyaka II.v.19)

Perhaps your first passage would be better rendered

 "The syllable OM (which is the imperishable brahman) is the universe."

This would then doubtless be the opening statement of Mandukya 1.


(2)  Your second passage is certainly Mandukya 12, ie the closing statement.

(3)  As for the "neti neti" passage, try Brahdaranyaka II.iii.6.


*****************************************************************
David Dargie
Studies in Religion
University of Queensland
email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
Phone: +61 7 3365 7334
Home: +61 7 3397 6863
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
David Dargie
Studies in Religion
University of Queensland
email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
Phone: +61 7 3365 7334
Home: +61 7 3397 6863
*****************************************************************






From dmenon at pacific.net.sg  Wed Mar 26 03:03:29 1997
From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 11:03:29 +0800
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029109.23782.10030935275205781351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:12 AM 3/26/97 GMT, Chandan Raghava Narayan wrote:
>
>
>Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music (Carnatic) is
>played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the arch of the foot?
>I find this interesting because I was always taught never to touch items
>associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper, and musical instruments,
>with your feet.
>The instrument can just as well be played in the Western "upright"
>manner... Might this have to do with it being a Western instrument?
>-chandan
>
        This may have more to do with the fact that 'gamakas', an essential
part of Carnatic
        music, is difficult to play with the violin held in the Western style.

Regards...Das











From Jyotishi at aol.com  Wed Mar 26 16:18:13 1997
From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 11:18:13 -0500
Subject: Lunar parallax and Indian astronomy
Message-ID: <161227029126.23782.7847981723556171833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to a message from mgansten at sbbs.se (Martin Gansten),
I would like to mention that the parallax "correction" is taken into
account in Jyotish although many practitioners do not employ it. For example.
according to one set of calculations, for the position of the Moon at
10Tula29 without a factor for parallax, it is 9Tula51 otherwise.

Jyotishi
jyotishi at aol.com






From srini at engin.umich.edu  Wed Mar 26 16:56:00 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 11:56:00 -0500
Subject: TolkAppiyar
Message-ID: <161227029124.23782.14108809984664895688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Esteemed list members, please bear with me as I re-repost
this... it looks like a line got munged again !
_______

>> tolkAppiyan, the author of the earliest extant grammar in Tamil, has been
>> said to be of Aryan origin by some Tamil scholars like tevaneyap pAvANar. 
>> The name tolkAppiyan is derived from a family name kAppiyan. I wonder if 
>> there is any connection between the Tamil tolkAppiyan and Sanskrit kApya 
>> or kApeya.
>>
>> I would appreciate any explanation or comments regarding the Sanskrit
>> material. Thanks.
>>
>> S.Palaniappan
 
Please see the detailed entry on TolkAppiyam in Kamil Zvelebil's 
"Lexicon of Tamil Literature" (E.J.Brill, Leiden, 1995).  It contains 
a brief discussion of the name TolkAppiyar itself, the author's 
possible Brahmanical/Jaina connections, and connections with the 
(Aindra) Sanskrit grammatical tradition.  
 
As regards the kAppiya in the name TolkAppiyar, the historian 
N.Subrahmanian in his book "The Brahmin in the Tamil country" 
has a somewhat different conjecture... it's elaborate too ;-) 
But since he is a very sober historian on the whole, his 
suggestions are at least intriguing.  He connects kAppiya 
(< Skt. kAvya) in this name, and the kAppiyakuDi-kAvyakula 
mentioned in the CilappatikAram, with a pro-S'ukra (i.e. 
pro-kavi... hence kAvya) sect of Brahmins who he suggests 
were the earliest Brahmins to migrate to the Tamil regions 
in the dim past.
 
See also P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's remarks on TolkAppiyar in his 
"History of the Tamils: from the earliest times to 600 A.D." 
which make for very interesting reading.  Although his book 
is quite dated, his critical yet humanistic approach to writing 
history is very striking.
 
Study of two ancient Indian grammatical traditions: the Tamil 
TolkAppiyam compared with the Sanskrit Rk-, Taittiriya Pratis'Akhyas, 
Apis'ali s'IkSa, and the aSTAdhyAyI" is invaluable.
 
-Srini.





From davidi at wizard.net  Wed Mar 26 17:16:45 1997
From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 12:16:45 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029128.23782.10643092909323036571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Chandan Raghava Narayan wrote:

>Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music
>(Carnatic) is played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the
>arch of the foot? I find this interesting because I was always taught
>never to touch items associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper,
>and musical instruments, with your feet. The instrument can just as
>well be played in the Western "upright" manner... Might this have to
>do with it being a Western instrument? -chandan

and this morning, Das Menon replied --

> This may have more to do with the fact that 'gamakas', an essential
> part of Carnatic music, is difficult to play with the violin held in the
> Western style.

That explanation seems to echo what the well-known Karnatic violinist 
L. Subramaniam told me when I interviewed him (for a small newspaper, 
abt. a dozen or more years ago).  He remarked something to the effect 
that when the violin scroll is rested on the foot, it makes the whole 
playing process looser & freer (the instrument thus being "anchored" 
at both ends) -- I guess there's more freedom both for neck & arm.

In terms of the question of the instrument & the foot, a comparative 
case is that of sitar in Hindustani music -- the base of which which 
is traditionally rested on (I believe) the sole of the right foot.

Still, I don't know if these cases of practice quite solve the 
mystery raised by Chandan -- and one imagines there must have been 
some manner or route of justifying the seeming gesture of disrespect 
-- whether in case of violin or sitar.

Another note about the violin in Indian music.  L. Subramaniam 
alluded to me some of the Tanjore court history discussed in some 
detail by S. Palaniappan.  But he *also* refered to the belief 
(probably a prevalent belief) that the violin has ancient antecedents 
in the so-called *ravana* [or some cognate word?] -- a legendary 
bowed-string instrument associated w/ the Lord of Lankha, of epic 
fame (&/or infamy).  The general sense of this reference by the 
musician seemed to be a suggestion that South Indians were 
predisposed to favor such a bowed string instrument as the violin due 
to this ancient history -- and/or, a sense that it's something they'd 
seen before that had thus been re-introduced by the Dutch folks.

best,
d.i.

p.s.:  I just joined your august ranks a day or two ago -- expecting 
mainly to sit back & soak up the scholarship [I not being any sort of 
 proper Indological academic] -- but so happens this particular 
thread touched on familiar issues.
 .
 .....
 ............
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\
   >    david   raphael   israel    <
   >>      washington  d.c.      <<
 |  davidi at wizard.net      (home)
 |  disrael at skgf.com      (office)
 =========================
 |   thy centuries follow each other
 |   perfecting a small wild flower
 |                                       (Tagore)
 //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\/////





From athr at loc.gov  Wed Mar 26 20:38:14 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 15:38:14 -0500
Subject: LC Asian Division Reading Room to Close for Move
Message-ID: <161227029129.23782.9894112349566805148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

   The Asian Division will be closed beginning Tuesday, April 1, through
Monday, April 7, to move reference books, computers, telephones, and other
items to its new location in the Thomas Jefferson Building. 

   The Division will resume service to the public on Tuesday, April 8, in
the Thomas Jefferson Building, First Floor, Room LJ 104.






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Mar 26 15:44:40 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 15:44:40 +0000
Subject: XIIth IABS Conference
Message-ID: <161227029121.23782.5644333660591719690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have added a link for this conference from the INDOLOGY web site
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html

See under "conferences".

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From mlangley at brinet.com  Wed Mar 26 21:14:07 1997
From: mlangley at brinet.com (Max Langley)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 16:14:07 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029131.23782.4903936853628553813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As a long time violinist, and professional, I have to say that I am
unimpressed from a practical and acoustical standpoint at anyone's playing
the violin with the scroll held by the foot (feet). This remark is not
made in ignorance of the actual performing on Indian instruments--I
studied sarod and voice for a while with Ustad Ali Akbar Khan at the Ali 
Akbar College. Pandit Subramaniam, who I have had the happy opportunity to
experience in concert, is obviously well-trained in a Western style and
very able in every technical and musical way--the method of bowing always
tells the tale. For him, such a manner of playing represents an adaptation
of Western training to Indian performance ways. That is not true for many,
if not most of, Indian violinists. Indian-trained violinists tend to have
a wild and raspy wound, not vocal at all, and rather like home-grown
fiddlers everywhere, even if they are in a formidable possession of
musical knowledge. It is not really comfortable to play the violin sitting
down, if comfort were the determining factor--which in the case of Indian
violin-playing it is not. There is not a feeling of rightness with the
instrument that is the case with sarod, sitar, and probably srangi. I
cannot speak for the vina. I sense that Indian instrumental playing is
related to the lap as a center of weight and balance. The violin was not
designed with that orientation in mind. Pandit Subramanian, of course,
plays well and has adapted his exquisite musicianship to the tradional
requirements of Carnatic music....Max Langley



----------
> From: David R. Israel <davidi at wizard.net>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: european musical instruments in India
> Date: Wednesday, March 26, 1997 1:04 PM
> 
> Chandan Raghava Narayan wrote:
> 
> >Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music
> >(Carnatic) is played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the
> >arch of the foot? I find this interesting because I was always taught
> >never to touch items associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper,
> >and musical instruments, with your feet. The instrument can just as
> >well be played in the Western "upright" manner... Might this have to
> >do with it being a Western instrument? -chandan
> 
> and this morning, Das Menon replied --
> 
> > This may have more to do with the fact that 'gamakas', an essential
> > part of Carnatic music, is difficult to play with the violin held in
the
> > Western style.
> 
> That explanation seems to echo what the well-known Karnatic violinist 
> L. Subramaniam told me when I interviewed him (for a small newspaper, 
> abt. a dozen or more years ago).  He remarked something to the effect 
> that when the violin scroll is rested on the foot, it makes the whole 
> playing process looser & freer (the instrument thus being "anchored" 
> at both ends) -- I guess there's more freedom both for neck & arm.
> 
> In terms of the question of the instrument & the foot, a comparative 
> case is that of sitar in Hindustani music -- the base of which which 
> is traditionally rested on (I believe) the sole of the right foot.
> 
> Still, I don't know if these cases of practice quite solve the 
> mystery raised by Chandan -- and one imagines there must have been 
> some manner or route of justifying the seeming gesture of disrespect 
> -- whether in case of violin or sitar.
> 
> Another note about the violin in Indian music.  L. Subramaniam 
> alluded to me some of the Tanjore court history discussed in some 
> detail by S. Palaniappan.  But he *also* refered to the belief 
> (probably a prevalent belief) that the violin has ancient antecedents 
> in the so-called *ravana* [or some cognate word?] -- a legendary 
> bowed-string instrument associated w/ the Lord of Lankha, of epic 
> fame (&/or infamy).  The general sense of this reference by the 
> musician seemed to be a suggestion that South Indians were 
> predisposed to favor such a bowed string instrument as the violin due 
> to this ancient history -- and/or, a sense that it's something they'd 
> seen before that had thus been re-introduced by the Dutch folks.
> 
> best,
> d.i.
> 
> p.s.:  I just joined your august ranks a day or two ago -- expecting 
> mainly to sit back & soak up the scholarship [I not being any sort of 
>  proper Indological academic] -- but so happens this particular 
> thread touched on familiar issues.
>  .
>  .....
>  ............
>  \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\
>    >    david   raphael   israel    <
>    >>      washington  d.c.      <<
>  |  davidi at wizard.net      (home)
>  |  disrael at skgf.com      (office)
>  =========================
>  |   thy centuries follow each other
>  |   perfecting a small wild flower
>  |                                       (Tagore)
>  //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\/////





From mlangley at brinet.com  Wed Mar 26 21:49:02 1997
From: mlangley at brinet.com (Max Langley)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 16:49:02 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029132.23782.6959153053249532416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


One last comment on Indian violin-playing:

It is true that playing with the scroll held in the foot facilitates
playing only if the violinist does not use a chin-rest. In a sense, some
violinists pride themselves on using neither chin-rest nor shoulder-pad. I
confess that comfort this seems more anatomical than technical. But a
shorter fingerboard was in use before ca. 1830, and chin-rests date to the
late 19th and early 20th century. The shorter fingerboard, in fact, suits
the easier technical requirements of Indian music admirably. I would not
be surprised if some Indian violinists did not use the older--and
shorter--string length. The ancestor of both the violin and sarod was the
rebab, an Afghani one-stringed fiddle. 

Max Langley

----------
> From: David R. Israel <davidi at wizard.net>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: european musical instruments in India
> Date: Wednesday, March 26, 1997 1:04 PM
> 
> Chandan Raghava Narayan wrote:
> 
> >Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music
> >(Carnatic) is played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the
> >arch of the foot? I find this interesting because I was always taught
> >never to touch items associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper,
> >and musical instruments, with your feet. The instrument can just as
> >well be played in the Western "upright" manner... Might this have to
> >do with it being a Western instrument? -chandan
> 
> and this morning, Das Menon replied --
> 
> > This may have more to do with the fact that 'gamakas', an essential
> > part of Carnatic music, is difficult to play with the violin held in
the
> > Western style.
> 
> That explanation seems to echo what the well-known Karnatic violinist 
> L. Subramaniam told me when I interviewed him (for a small newspaper, 
> abt. a dozen or more years ago).  He remarked something to the effect 
> that when the violin scroll is rested on the foot, it makes the whole 
> playing process looser & freer (the instrument thus being "anchored" 
> at both ends) -- I guess there's more freedom both for neck & arm.
> 
> In terms of the question of the instrument & the foot, a comparative 
> case is that of sitar in Hindustani music -- the base of which which 
> is traditionally rested on (I believe) the sole of the right foot.
> 
> Still, I don't know if these cases of practice quite solve the 
> mystery raised by Chandan -- and one imagines there must have been 
> some manner or route of justifying the seeming gesture of disrespect 
> -- whether in case of violin or sitar.
> 
> Another note about the violin in Indian music.  L. Subramaniam 
> alluded to me some of the Tanjore court history discussed in some 
> detail by S. Palaniappan.  But he *also* refered to the belief 
> (probably a prevalent belief) that the violin has ancient antecedents 
> in the so-called *ravana* [or some cognate word?] -- a legendary 
> bowed-string instrument associated w/ the Lord of Lankha, of epic 
> fame (&/or infamy).  The general sense of this reference by the 
> musician seemed to be a suggestion that South Indians were 
> predisposed to favor such a bowed string instrument as the violin due 
> to this ancient history -- and/or, a sense that it's something they'd 
> seen before that had thus been re-introduced by the Dutch folks.
> 
> best,
> d.i.
> 
> p.s.:  I just joined your august ranks a day or two ago -- expecting 
> mainly to sit back & soak up the scholarship [I not being any sort of 
>  proper Indological academic] -- but so happens this particular 
> thread touched on familiar issues.
>  .
>  .....
>  ............
>  \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\
>    >    david   raphael   israel    <
>    >>      washington  d.c.      <<
>  |  davidi at wizard.net      (home)
>  |  disrael at skgf.com      (office)
>  =========================
>  |   thy centuries follow each other
>  |   perfecting a small wild flower
>  |                                       (Tagore)
>  //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\/////





From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Thu Mar 27 04:04:16 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 20:04:16 -0800
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029141.23782.16691041143529358740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:

[..]

> 
> Re: early (1800s) violin "technology" found in Carnatic violin. Is the
> bow different from the usual bow? Bow type changed radically in Europe
> around 1820.
> 

The earliest south Indians to play the violin used the "fiddle" that came
with the English martial bands. Since then, south Indians have generally
used violins as designed in Europe. The post-1820 bow is what is used by
Indian musicians. The violin did not enter Carnatic music in a very big
way till the mid-19th century. It still has to impact Hindustani music to
the same extent. I don't think the technical requirements of Indian music
are any "easier" than those of Western music. As the underlying philosophy
behind the two systems are so completely different, Indian musicians tune
the instrument differently, and the left-hand fingering technique has
developed over the years. Indian experimentation with the violin has taken
many forms. One musician from Karnataka, Mysore Chowdiah, even tried to
put seven strings on the violin, with quite disastrous results. In recent
times, there is the double-violin of L. Shankar. In more mainstream
Carnatic music, people have been content to use violins, bows and strings
as designed in the West, and have limited their experimentation to 
fingering techniques. One can even describe three or four different 
schools that are prevalent.

While musicians have been experimenting with the instrument, I find it
disturbing that Indians have not really learned the art of making violins,
even after more than a century of using it widely. Good violins are made
even in Japan, but not in India. Quite often, a potentially good violinist
is ruined by a bad violin. This might be part of the reason for the
scratchy, "non-vocal" sound attributed to Indian violinists. Unless of
course, the musician in question was actually playing on a Stradivarius,
and still producing scratchy sounds!!

On the subject of Western instruments being used in Indian music, I
propose to call the recent fad for electronic synthesizers as a
"MacDonald's effect", a competitor of the "pizza effect" in Indian music.
The pizza effect explains why musicians like Ravi Shankar and L.
Subramaniam are more popular in India than their colleagues in the music
profession. The MacDonald's effect is more elementary than that. It is
based on the simple idea that a thing is good simply because it comes from
the West. This syndrome affects almost all Indians who never set foot out
of the country. Those Indians who live in the West probably get immune to
it! For example, one modern guru has taken a fancy to the synth, and 
Carnatic musicians whom I credited with better musical sensibilities are
vying with one another to accompany him on the flute, violin, mridangam
etc. Another instance is the widespread use of the synth and the electric
guitar in ensembles of bhajan and ghazal singers. 

S. Vidyasankar






From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Thu Mar 27 04:48:00 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 20:48:00 -0800
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029142.23782.11695831382641089317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, David R. Israel wrote:

[..]

> 
> Still, I don't know if these cases of practice quite solve the 
> mystery raised by Chandan -- and one imagines there must have been 
> some manner or route of justifying the seeming gesture of disrespect 
> -- whether in case of violin or sitar.

One just does the easy thing, without bothering too much about ritual
purity. For example, saliva is polluting, which is why many Indians
prefer to wet the gum on an envelope with water, rather than using their
tongues. But this ritual impurity associated with saliva does not stop
Indians from playing the bamboo flute or the shehnai or the nadaswaram.
Saliva necessarily touches these instruments in the act of playing. And
the flute is Krishna's instrument, while most festivals are incomplete
without shehnais or nadaswarams. No justification is offered. The
nadaswaram is quite openly described in Tamil as "echchal (saliva) 
vAdyam (instrument)", although it is also considered an auspicious
instrument.

> 
> Another note about the violin in Indian music.  L. Subramaniam 
> alluded to me some of the Tanjore court history discussed in some 
> detail by S. Palaniappan.  But he *also* refered to the belief 
> (probably a prevalent belief) that the violin has ancient antecedents 
> in the so-called *ravana* [or some cognate word?] -- a legendary 
> bowed-string instrument associated w/ the Lord of Lankha, of epic 
> fame (&/or infamy).  The general sense of this reference by the 
> musician seemed to be a suggestion that South Indians were 
> predisposed to favor such a bowed string instrument as the violin due 
> to this ancient history -- and/or, a sense that it's something they'd 
> seen before that had thus been re-introduced by the Dutch folks.

This certainly is a prevalent belief nowadays, the instrument of Ravana
being called rAvaNAstra. But this seems largely mythical, and partly
motivated by a misguided need to claim an ancient Indian history for the
violin. If there was any ancient Indian history for a bowed instrument,
south Indians were not aware of it in the 18th-19th centuries. 

Take the contemporary Carnatic musician, Mandolin U. Srinivas. He rose to
fame within a couple of years since he started performing in public. One
might argue that south Indians were predisposed to plucked string
instruments, and give the south Indian Veena as an example. But if you
take into account that the south Indian Veena typically ends up as a
beautiful item in a showcase in a drawing room, and that there are more 
flute and violin concerts than Veena concerts in a typical music festival
in Madras, you have to wonder what such a predisposition means. You also
have to wonder why such a predisposition does not manifest itself in terms
of other plucked string instruments like sitar, sarod, guitar, balalaika
etc.

Rather, the story of the violin in Carnatic music is the story of
influential individuals like Baluswamy Dikshitar, the Tanjavur Quartet,
and the rulers of Tanjavur, Travancore, Mysore, Ettayapuram, Pudukkottai
etc. The early players, encouraged by the rulers, developed the concept
that the violin is a good accompaniment to Carnatic vocal music, and it
has come to stay. In fact, till quite recently, it was generally felt that
the violin is suited only for an accompanying role, and should not be
played solo. But the individualistic nature of Carnatic music is beginning
to assert itself, and increasingly, a violinist who is mainly an
accompanist is deemed to be of lesser status than a violinist who plays
solo. 

S. Vidyasankar






From elfn at antares.com.br  Thu Mar 27 04:51:17 1997
From: elfn at antares.com.br (Edgard Leite)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 20:51:17 -0800
Subject: karma
Message-ID: <161227029135.23782.92537976684951776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Roland Steiner wrote:
> 
> See, e.g, the just published paper by Klaus Butzenberger: "Ancient Indian
> Conceptions on Man's Destiny After Death. The Beginnings and the Early
> Development of the Doctrine of Transmigration. I", in: Berliner
> Indologische Studien 9/10 (1996), pp. 55-118.
> 
> Roland Steiner
> 
> Fachgebiet Indologie (FB 11) der Philipps-Universitaet
> Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6
> D-35032 Marburg, Germany
> Tel.: 06421/28 2184
> Fax: 06421/28 8913
> email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de

Dear Ronald Steiner:
Thank you for your sugestion. I will send my order to the publisher.
Best wishes
Edgard Leite.





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Mar 27 03:56:38 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 22:56:38 -0500
Subject: SUMER LANGUAGE OFFERINGS AT MICHIGAN
Message-ID: <161227029139.23782.7939046105373542762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


SUMMER LANGUAGE OFFERINGS AT MICHIGAN

The 1997 University of Michigan Summer Language Institute (SLI), a program
of the International Institute at U-M, offers intensive courses in three
South Asian languages:  Beg. and Int. Hindi, Beg. and Int. Tamil, and Beg.
Sanskrit; the availability of any class is contingent on sufficient
enrollment.  Each course provides the equivalent of a full  years language
instruction during the Universitys regular Summer Term (June 26-August 19)
and carries 8 hours of U-M credit. U-M language faculty teach the courses
and other faculty lecture on area studies topics.  Additional cultural
programs supplement the language courses.  For further information and
application materials, please call Marga Miller, Summer Language Institute
Coordinator, 313/764-8571 (fax: 313/763-4765, e-mail:
mkmiller at umich.edu).  THE APPLICATION DEADLINE IS APRIL 15.



************************************************************************
Les Adler, Research Fellow
International Institute
Center for South & Southeast Asian Studies
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
313/764-4568
fax: 313/936-0996
*************************************************************************







From bpj at netg.se  Wed Mar 26 21:21:26 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 23:21:26 +0200
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029134.23782.1570505295541457536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm not a musician. I just wish to point out that a lot of European "folk"
violinists rest the violin against the chest rather than against the
shoulder. It may be because it makes it possible to sing while playing, but
basically I think this is just random cultural differences. I have a hard
time seeing the point in debating the "correctness" of different
traditions, be it their way of holding their instruments, their "sound", or
whatever. IMO this thread suffers from some cultural prejudice: does anyone
want to produce an "explanation" why Devnagri is written with a nib that is
cut "backwards" as compared to most other scripts (Roman, Arabic, Hebrew
and even Tibetan)? Barring the unlikely possibility that at some point in
time most Hindu scribes were lefties, and thus wrote Devnagri with a
straight nib, it is just a question of aesthetical preferences, et de
gustibus non est disputandum.

(And yes, although not a musician I dabble as a leftie calligrapher :-)

At 21:51 26.3.1997 +0000, Max Langley wrote:
>One last comment on Indian violin-playing:
>
>It is true that playing with the scroll held in the foot facilitates
>playing only if the violinist does not use a chin-rest. In a sense, some
>violinists pride themselves on using neither chin-rest nor shoulder-pad. I
>confess that comfort this seems more anatomical than technical. But a
>shorter fingerboard was in use before ca. 1830, and chin-rests date to the
>late 19th and early 20th century. The shorter fingerboard, in fact, suits
>the easier technical requirements of Indian music admirably. I would not
>be surprised if some Indian violinists did not use the older--and
>shorter--string length. The ancestor of both the violin and sarod was the
>rebab, an Afghani one-stringed fiddle.
>
>Max Langley
>
>----------
>> From: David R. Israel <davidi at wizard.net>
>> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>> Subject: Re: european musical instruments in India
>> Date: Wednesday, March 26, 1997 1:04 PM
>>
>> Chandan Raghava Narayan wrote:
>>
>> >Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music
>> >(Carnatic) is played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the
>> >arch of the foot? I find this interesting because I was always taught
>> >never to touch items associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper,
>> >and musical instruments, with your feet. The instrument can just as
>> >well be played in the Western "upright" manner... Might this have to
>> >do with it being a Western instrument? -chandan
>>
>> and this morning, Das Menon replied --
>>
>> > This may have more to do with the fact that 'gamakas', an essential
>> > part of Carnatic music, is difficult to play with the violin held in
>the
>> > Western style.
>>
>> That explanation seems to echo what the well-known Karnatic violinist
>> L. Subramaniam told me when I interviewed him (for a small newspaper,
>> abt. a dozen or more years ago).  He remarked something to the effect
>> that when the violin scroll is rested on the foot, it makes the whole
>> playing process looser & freer (the instrument thus being "anchored"
>> at both ends) -- I guess there's more freedom both for neck & arm.
>>
>> In terms of the question of the instrument & the foot, a comparative
>> case is that of sitar in Hindustani music -- the base of which which
>> is traditionally rested on (I believe) the sole of the right foot.
>>
>> Still, I don't know if these cases of practice quite solve the
>> mystery raised by Chandan -- and one imagines there must have been
>> some manner or route of justifying the seeming gesture of disrespect
>> -- whether in case of violin or sitar.
>>
>> Another note about the violin in Indian music.  L. Subramaniam
>> alluded to me some of the Tanjore court history discussed in some
>> detail by S. Palaniappan.  But he *also* refered to the belief
>> (probably a prevalent belief) that the violin has ancient antecedents
>> in the so-called *ravana* [or some cognate word?] -- a legendary
>> bowed-string instrument associated w/ the Lord of Lankha, of epic
>> fame (&/or infamy).  The general sense of this reference by the
>> musician seemed to be a suggestion that South Indians were
>> predisposed to favor such a bowed string instrument as the violin due
>> to this ancient history -- and/or, a sense that it's something they'd
>> seen before that had thus been re-introduced by the Dutch folks.
>>
>> best,
>> d.i.
>>
>> p.s.:  I just joined your august ranks a day or two ago -- expecting
>> mainly to sit back & soak up the scholarship [I not being any sort of
>>  proper Indological academic] -- but so happens this particular
>> thread touched on familiar issues.
>>  .
>>  .....
>>  ............
>>  \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\
>>    >    david   raphael   israel    <
>>    >>      washington  d.c.      <<
>>  |  davidi at wizard.net      (home)
>>  |  disrael at skgf.com      (office)
>>  =========================
>>  |   thy centuries follow each other
>>  |   perfecting a small wild flower
>>  |                                       (Tagore)
>>  //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\/////







From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Thu Mar 27 09:02:25 1997
From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 01:02:25 -0800
Subject: Q: deafness etc. in Indian Medical literature?
Message-ID: <161227029145.23782.486752294598590985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am currently looking for sources on deafness, blindness and
corresponding deficiencies of the senses in ancient Indian medical
literature. I have browsed through the Carakasam.hitaa and checked some
secondary literature - as far as it is available to me -, but could not
find any specific mention. My curiosity applies particularly to the
following three points: 

(1) How can the complete absence of a certain sense-faculty's function
be diagnosed?

(2) What are the causes that are recognized as inevitably leading to a
loss of a sense-faculty?

(3) Is there a distinction between a natural inability to use a certain
sense and one that is brought about by accidents or other extraneous
causes? And if so, how does that reflect in the diagnosis?

Along the same lines, I would like to know what kinds of sensory defects
Indian medical literature recognizes, and, in particular, to what extent
and in which way their causes are investigated. Philosophical literature
deals with perceptual errors a lot, and with the question whether and
how such errors could or should be attributed to defects in the actual
sense-faculty/sense-organ, but I have so far not come across any
secondary literature where such discussions are linked to a medical
analysis. 

Any references will be greatly appreciated, 

-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department of Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Mar 27 06:33:51 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 01:33:51 -0500
Subject: Words for crocodile
Message-ID: <161227029144.23782.8994977347067383518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Two Tamil words meaning crocodile/alligator are not found in the Dravidian
Etymological Dictionary (Revised Edition), 1984. They are:

iTaGkar
karAm

Does anybody know why they are not included? Are they considered to be of
Munda origin?  Thanks.


S. Palaniappan 





From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Thu Mar 27 01:55:43 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 02:55:43 +0100
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029137.23782.6566765400075090332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Max Langley wrote:

>The ancestor of both the violin and sarod was the
>rebab, an Afghani one-stringed fiddle.

As far the violin is concerned, the filiation is:

rabAb (probably introduced thru Muslim Spain. Central Asian, not native
       Arabic instrument?)
  |
  V
rebec (a 3-stringed Medieval pear shaped fiddle of W. Europe. Name also
       comes from the rabAb, obviously)
  |
  V
viola (da braccio), in other words the viola (not directly the violin)

The violin (Ital. violino is a diminutive of viola) is a "dessus" (soprano)
of viola. The original instrument is the viola (called "alto" in French,
from "alto de viola" and "Bratsche" in German, from "(da) braccio").

Re: early (1800s) violin "technology" found in Carnatic violin. Is the
bow different from the usual bow? Bow type changed radically in Europe
around 1820.













From asia at netway.at  Thu Mar 27 11:35:04 1997
From: asia at netway.at (asia)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 11:35:04 +0000
Subject: SEA institutions
Message-ID: <161227029149.23782.9066538448633694311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues!

We are promoting a Thai- Austrian Friendship Project on
the web. The primary goal is to present a new approach to Asia 
today and to help enhance intercultural understanding.

If anyone of you is interested in creating a link from your 
homepage to our website, please e-mail to us.
 
In addition we would like to contact South East Asian orientated
study centers. Could anyone send us contact addresses?

Thank you.

Kind regards
Sachsenmaier

    ///     ----/  /  ///    SACHSENMAIER VERLAG       asia at netway.at   
   //  /   /      /  //  /   P.O.BOX 107 - A-6026 INNSBRUCK - AUSTRIA
  //--- /  ----/ /  //--- /  TEL +43 512 278872    FAX +43 512 278844
_//      /____/ / _//      /_http://www.netway.at/sachsenmaier-verlag/






From jaybee at tm.net.my  Thu Mar 27 20:44:05 1997
From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 12:44:05 -0800
Subject: Other Festivals Too.
Message-ID: <161227029411.23782.3030230344008947630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Reply to Peter J. Claus #33 Dated 2nd April, 1997 18:16:23Bst (to everyone on the list)
Re : Query on Whether the Tamil New Year always falls on 14th April?
I felt that alittle more clarification on this subject will not be out of place.
At present there are two systems of calender being usedin India. One is the SauramAna or Solar. THhe other one 
is the ChandramAna or Lunar.In SauramAna, the basic unit is the solar day of 24 hours.IN ChandramAna , the 
Lunar day or Thithi is the basic unit.
The Lunar month starts on the 1st day of the waxing mooni.e. the Shukla Paksha Pratama.It ends on the AmAvAsya- 
new moon.The lunar month is otherwise known as the Synodic Month. It is equivalent to 29.5 days. The Lunar Year 
is made up of 12 Lunar Months. Its length is 354.367056 days.
The Lunar months are named after the Asterism or Nakshatra in which the full moon occurs during that particular 
month.
E.g.
Full moon in Nakshatra Chitra = CHITTIRAI (Tamil month)
Full moon in Nakshatra Vishakha = VAIKAASI
The Solar year is based onthe movement of the Sun along the 12 signs of the Zodiac. THe period that it takes 
for the Sun to travese through one sign or RAsi is known as the Solar month.The span of each of the Zodiac 
signs is uniform i.e. 30 degreesof arc.Although this is uniform, the length of the Solar  months vary. This is 
because the orbital velocity of the Earth varies.
Thus the month of Chiththirai= 31 days, Aani is 32 days, Aippasi is 30 days , and Margalzhi is 29 days.
The velocity again depends upon he variance in the Earth's distance from the Sun.
The Solar Year starts when the Sun moves into the first point ofAries  i.e. the starting point of the Zodiac.
The length of the Solar Year is 365.2422 days. This is also known as the Astronomical year. It is upon this 
system that the Western Gregorian Year and the Tamil Year is based.
The Medeival Tamils followed the Solar calender more faithfully.
In the Chola and Pandya inscriptions, we find that the Tamil months were actually named after the Signs of the 
Zodiac.
When the Sun was in Aries i.e. MEsha, The corresponding Tamil month was called MEda NyAyiRu..Taurus(Rishabha) 
=Idaba NyAyiRu.; Pisces = MIna NyAyiRu.
IT was during the Vijaya Nagar Empire period that Lunar calender came to be used in Tamil Nadu.
By and large a pseudo Lunisolar calender came into use. The real Lunisolar calener is somewhat different.
In our pseudo Lunisolar calender,the Lunar month's name is given to the corresponding Solar month.The length of 
the solar month was not affected.
The Tamil New Year being basically Solar, starts when the Sun moves into the Zodiacal sign of MEsha. It so 
happens that the full moon occurs in the Nakshatra Chitra or plus/minus one Nakshatra.lSo the month lost its 
original name. i.e. MEda NyAyiRu, and came to be called Chiththirai.
THe Tamil Solar calender is  equal to to the Astronomical calender on which the Gregorian System is also based 
i.e. 365 days 6hours 11 minutes 48seconds.
Only when the Sun enters the first point of Aries, the Tamil New Year can start.This may take place during any 
part of the day - morning, afternoon, evening,or night. It does not technically start at sunrise or midnight.
But the Gregorian year starts always at 12-00 midnight on the 31st December of the Preceding yearThe Gregorian 
year is of calculated uniformally of having 365 days with an additional day added on each fourth year i.e. leap 
year having 366 days.
Because of this the Tamil New Year moves forwards and backwards according to the lapse of time between the 
Tamil Calender and the Gregorian Calender. 
When the Tamil year is longer than the Gregorian year by 6hours plus,the latter  lapses. 
When a leap year occurs in the Gregorian year, the  Tamil year lapses.
This gets corrected automatically.
So the Tamil New Year occurs on the 14th April, most of the time and once in a few years- on the 15th April,and 
less frequently on the 13th April.


Dr. S.Jayabarathi
Sungai Petani.
Malaysia.





From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Thu Mar 27 22:09:12 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 14:09:12 -0800
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029155.23782.1321001270338676722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:

> One point I didn't see mentioned re: the adoption of violin (and not
> of other European instruments). Maybe what also favored it was the
> fact that it can play in any tuning, not only the equal-tempered one
> (unlike say the guitar or European wind instruments)? Sure, individualities
> are key, but one can also ask, why did only the violin find such
> individualities while other Euro. instruments didn't. Note the violin is
> also the only European instrument adopted into classical Arabic music.

Tuning according to just intonation or equal temparement is only part of
the story in Indian music. The ancient theory of 22 Srutis is known more
on paper than in practice. A stringed instrument with a fretted board can
be easily adapted to Indian music, with minimal changes in the positions
of a few frets. As for wind instruments, the clarinet and saxophone have
both been recently explored in Carnatic music, with fairly decent results.
Of course, the fact that the violin does not have frets is very much in
its favor. 

More important than the system of tuning are certain other features of the
violin. The continuity of its sound is a distinct advantage. At the same
time, it can blend in with the voice quite well, without swamping the
voice with its intensity. Finally, the rise of the violin's popularity
in Carnatic music goes hand in hand with the rise in the numbers of public
concerts in large auditoria. For one reason or the other, south Indians
prefer their music to be fairly loud. Plucked string instruments like
guitars and the Veena cannot deliver great intensities of sound, without a
large amount of high fidelity amplification, something that was not
available at the turn of the century. 

Addressing Max Langley's point about the scratchiness of the bowing of
many Indian violinists, may I point out that even the greatest vocalists
have not been particularly noted for the sweetness of their voices? Indian
audiences throng to vocal concerts by Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, or D. K.
Pattammal or Gangubai Hangal. On their best days, these vocalists can
produce rasping sounds. The last named lady has such a manly voice
that she is often jokingly referred to as Gangubua Hangal. The male
vocalists would also do such things as snort snuff on stage, or blow their
noses into handkerchiefs, or cough and audibly clear their throats, all
these actions being constantly amplified by the mikes in front of their
faces. Typically, north Indian musicians tend to be more sophisticated
with these things than the south Indians, which probably accounts for the
greater popularity of Hindustani music in the West. But then, south Indian
audiences look past these things, and look for musical genius or ingenuity
or innovation. Consequently, scratchy sounds from violins are tolerated to
a greater extent than one might expect. Finding musical genius and a
mellifluous voice in the same individual can be a rare event. Personally,
I would prefer a raw, earthy voice with all its blemishes if it belongs to
a musical genius to the sweet, sanitized one of a mediocrity. The same
thing goes for an instrumentalist. And if the public image of Carnatic
musicians is any indication, most afficionados have similar views. 

> 
> I would assume (although I couldn't myself say) that Indian violinists
> take advantage of this capability & play the ragas correctly, which they
> don't do on electronic keyboards. (Although if they really wanted to go
> thru the headache they could. There are MIDI keyboards which can download
> tuning tables from say a computer or a sequencer. Or maybe in the styles
> of music which would tend to adopt synthesizers one shouldn't expect
> musicians to worry too much about shrutis)
> 

Yes, the MIDI keyboards might help, but unless the player is prepared to
do constant pitch-bending, it is impossible to render any of the really
Carnatic ragas properly. But as I said earlier, the tuning is only one
part of the story. The harmonium used to be a much reviled instrument
once (All India Radio even banned its use for some time), but it is
ubiquitous in Hindustani vocal concerts nowadays. And Hindustani musicians
are well-known, even in south India, for paying the utmost attention to
Sruti fidelity. The real reason is not that a keyboard would have problems
with Srutis, but that good Carnatic music is not very amenable to a
keyboard. 

> And one can also ask, was there a specific empty niche the violin found in
> Carnatic music? Was it experimentation for the mere joy of experimentation?
> (With then lasting results)
> 

Of course, the answer to the second question is yes, but there was a niche
into which the violin fit admirably - namely, that of accompaniment to
vocal music. Although Carnatic instrumental music revolves around vocal
music conceptually, none of the south Indian instruments (barring
percussion ones) is really suited for an accompanying role. The wind
instruments like the flute and the nadaswaram are too loud and can be
fickle in their pitches, the Veena is not loud enough, and in the hands of
an average player, can be quite staccato. Note that only an average player
would typically fit the accompanist's role, the maestro preferring to be a
soloist. And then, in the colonial context, there was the added challenge
of asserting one's own cultural independence, by mastering a white man's
instrument and bending it to your will! The violin was an apt candidate
for all these requirements. 

S. Vidyasankar






From mlangley at brinet.com  Thu Mar 27 20:21:19 1997
From: mlangley at brinet.com (Max Langley)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 15:21:19 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029152.23782.8415740860556433411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It was the structural innovations by Tourte and the Piccatte brothers in
the late 18th and early 19th centuries that allowed much of the vast
expansion possible by Niccolo Paganini of Genoa in the 19th century, and
his musical heirs. Indian music, Carnatic or Hindustani, does not at
present employ any of those technical possibilities--such as sautille,
saltando, rochet, etc.--now standard in modern Western violin-playing.
Moreover, because Indian music does not vertically built its musical
lines, the harmonic possibilities of the violin's longer fingerboard and
curved bridge [another innovation] are not necessary. In terms of
technical recquirements, violin [viola, cello] music in India resembles
that of the Italian baroque music. And a shorter neck and fingerboard are
sufficient for those requirements. 

Two families of instruments competed for primacy: the viol family [frets,
flat backs, less volume] and the violin family [gamba]. The latter won
out, and of course the fiddle belongs to the latter. All Indian music is
based on vocal. For that reason, the unvocal sound of many Indian players
seems uncharacteristic of the vocal tradition.

Max Langley
----------
> From: Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: european musical instruments in India
> Date: Thursday, March 27, 1997 2:48 PM
> 
> >On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
> >
> >[..]
> >
> >>
> >> Re: early (1800s) violin "technology" found in Carnatic violin. Is
the
> >> bow different from the usual bow? Bow type changed radically in
Europe
> >> around 1820.
> 
> Just a correction. I was partially mistaken. The bow changed less
> abruptly that I was implying. The concave shape of the bow was invented
> as early as 1770-1780 by one of the Tourte (Francois?) I believe the
screw
> mechanism was introduced by Francois Tourte around 1820 give or take 10
years.
> 
> In any case plenty of time, as Vidyasankar Sundaresan pointed out.
> 
> One point I didn't see mentioned re: the adoption of violin (and not
> of other European instruments). Maybe what also favored it was the
> fact that it can play in any tuning, not only the equal-tempered one
> (unlike say the guitar or European wind instruments)? Sure,
individualities
> are key, but one can also ask, why did only the violin find such
> individualities while other Euro. instruments didn't. Note the violin is
> also the only European instrument adopted into classical Arabic music.
> 
> I would assume (although I couldn't myself say) that Indian violinists
> take advantage of this capability & play the ragas correctly, which they
> don't do on electronic keyboards. (Although if they really wanted to go
> thru the headache they could. There are MIDI keyboards which can
download
> tuning tables from say a computer or a sequencer. Or maybe in the styles
> of music which would tend to adopt synthesizers one shouldn't expect
> musicians to worry too much about shrutis)
> 
> And one can also ask, was there a specific empty niche the violin found
in
> Carnatic music? Was it experimentation for the mere joy of
experimentation?
> (With then lasting results)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From mlangley at brinet.com  Thu Mar 27 20:29:58 1997
From: mlangley at brinet.com (Max Langley)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 15:29:58 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029154.23782.5233813547720764621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One correction: the viol family is designated 'da gamba', and the viola da
gamba represents the gamba held between the legs like a cello. Modern
music instrument history acccounts two families: the viol family, with
curved plates; and the violin family, with curved ones. I wonder if viols
with adjustable frets would suit Indian music better than the louder
violin family? 

----------
> From: Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: european musical instruments in India
> Date: Thursday, March 27, 1997 2:48 PM
> 
> >On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
> >
> >[..]
> >
> >>
> >> Re: early (1800s) violin "technology" found in Carnatic violin. Is
the
> >> bow different from the usual bow? Bow type changed radically in
Europe
> >> around 1820.
> 
> Just a correction. I was partially mistaken. The bow changed less
> abruptly that I was implying. The concave shape of the bow was invented
> as early as 1770-1780 by one of the Tourte (Francois?) I believe the
screw
> mechanism was introduced by Francois Tourte around 1820 give or take 10
years.
> 
> In any case plenty of time, as Vidyasankar Sundaresan pointed out.
> 
> One point I didn't see mentioned re: the adoption of violin (and not
> of other European instruments). Maybe what also favored it was the
> fact that it can play in any tuning, not only the equal-tempered one
> (unlike say the guitar or European wind instruments)? Sure,
individualities
> are key, but one can also ask, why did only the violin find such
> individualities while other Euro. instruments didn't. Note the violin is
> also the only European instrument adopted into classical Arabic music.
> 
> I would assume (although I couldn't myself say) that Indian violinists
> take advantage of this capability & play the ragas correctly, which they
> don't do on electronic keyboards. (Although if they really wanted to go
> thru the headache they could. There are MIDI keyboards which can
download
> tuning tables from say a computer or a sequencer. Or maybe in the styles
> of music which would tend to adopt synthesizers one shouldn't expect
> musicians to worry too much about shrutis)
> 
> And one can also ask, was there a specific empty niche the violin found
in
> Carnatic music? Was it experimentation for the mere joy of
experimentation?
> (With then lasting results)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Fri Mar 28 00:37:02 1997
From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 16:37:02 -0800
Subject: Q: deafness etc. in Indian medical literature
Message-ID: <161227029147.23782.12007112885687023176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for sources on whether, and if so, how deafness, blindness
and other complete losses of sense-faculties are dealt with in ancient
Indian medical
literature. I have browsed through the Carakasam.hitaa and checked some
secondary literature - as far as it is available to me -, but could not
really find anything. 

My curiosity applies particularly to the
following three points: 

(1) How can a doctor diagnose the complete absence of a certain
sense-faculty's function? 

(2) Which causes - if any - are recognized as inevitably leading to the
loss of a sense-faculty?

(3) Is there a distinction between the inborn inability to use a certain
sense and an inability that is brought about by extraneous causes later
in life? And if so, how does that reflect in the diagnosis?

Along the same lines, I would like to know what kinds of sensory defects
Indian medical literature recognizes, and, in particular, to what extent
and in which way their causes are investigated. Philosophical literature
deals with perceptual errors a lot, and with the question whether and
how such errors could or should be attributed to defects in the actual
sense-faculty/sense-organ, but I have so far not come across any
secondary literature where such discussions are linked to a medical
analysis. 

Any references will be greatly appreciated, 

-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department of Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University
Birgit Kellner
Department of Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University






From adheesh at uclink4.berkeley.edu  Fri Mar 28 03:38:47 1997
From: adheesh at uclink4.berkeley.edu (adheesh sathaye)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 19:38:47 -0800
Subject: Are violins endowed with religious significance? (was Re:  european  musical instruments in India)
Message-ID: <161227029160.23782.3558110928586551564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear fellow Indologists,

As the second party of the discussion to which Chandan Narayan had
originally alluded, I feel obliged to resuscitate his main discussion, which
seems to have suffered those common pratfalls of Indology, debates on
origins and aesthetics....

Our basic observation was that with regards to traditionally 'Indian'
instruments, such as the vI.nA, or the sitAr, in common practice there seems
to be an explicit prohibition of contact with the foot. Resting the vI.nA on
the thigh or calf would be acceptable, but it should not be allowed to touch
one's foot. At least in our conversation, this was the common practice with
which we were familiar. However, when playing the violin, there is
necessarily contact with the foot. 

This raises a few questions:

** 1) Is this prohibition of 'foot contact' really as explicit as I have
made it out to be?

This is basically the crux of the argument; if this rule is not explicit or
very widespread, then there is no further debate.

However, if it is true, then we must assume it has to do with either the
association of the said instruments with either religious sanctity, or with
levels of respect. (That is, the same respect is accorded to the instrument
as is given to other people, with whom 'foot contact' is also explicitly
prohibited.)

** 2)  If either of these is the case, then why the discrepancy when it
comes to the violin? 

I suggest that if the violin was truly considered 'on par' with other Indian
classical instruments, then there would necessarily be this same prohibition
of foot contact, and thus in the development of the Indian playing style
(once again a question of origins) this consideration would have to be taken
into account--perhaps by resting the violin on a different part of the body,
or on a cushion a la the tabla. My suggestion was, although primarily in
jest, the possibility that the early players were indeed conscious of the
disrespectful nature of foot contact, and it was a deliberate statement on
their part....A subalternist approach to classical Indian music, if you will....

Or perhaps, more seriously that indeed the violin is not endowed with the
same sort of sacred overtones as other classical instruments, and thus the
aforementioned prohibition need not apply....

In any case, it would be very interesting to see what are other opinions and
facts regarding these two questions in particular....

Thanks,

Adheesh Sathaye
Graduate Student--Dept. of South/Southeast Asian Studies
UC Berkeley

 At 12:19 AM 3/26/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>Mr. Palaniappan's interesting historical account of Maratha patronage of
>classical music along with the introduction of western instruments brought
>to mind an interesting conversation I once had with my friend Adheesh
>Sathaye...
>
>Isn't it curious that the violin in Indian classical music (Carnatic) is
>played with the scroll of the instrument resting on the arch of the foot?
>I find this interesting because I was always taught never to touch items
>associated with "Sarasvati", ie. books, paper, and musical instruments,
>with your feet.
>The instrument can just as well be played in the Western "upright"
>manner... Might this have to do with it being a Western instrument?
>-chandan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--------------______________---------------------_____________---------------
adheesh at uclink4.berkeley.edu
510-704-0443	
	'Suddenly Marathi is everywhere.'--C. Masica, 1991.






From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Thu Mar 27 19:46:59 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 20:46:59 +0100
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029151.23782.14880252640595523848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>
>[..]
>
>>
>> Re: early (1800s) violin "technology" found in Carnatic violin. Is the
>> bow different from the usual bow? Bow type changed radically in Europe
>> around 1820.

Just a correction. I was partially mistaken. The bow changed less
abruptly that I was implying. The concave shape of the bow was invented
as early as 1770-1780 by one of the Tourte (Francois?) I believe the screw
mechanism was introduced by Francois Tourte around 1820 give or take 10 years.

In any case plenty of time, as Vidyasankar Sundaresan pointed out.

One point I didn't see mentioned re: the adoption of violin (and not
of other European instruments). Maybe what also favored it was the
fact that it can play in any tuning, not only the equal-tempered one
(unlike say the guitar or European wind instruments)? Sure, individualities
are key, but one can also ask, why did only the violin find such
individualities while other Euro. instruments didn't. Note the violin is
also the only European instrument adopted into classical Arabic music.

I would assume (although I couldn't myself say) that Indian violinists
take advantage of this capability & play the ragas correctly, which they
don't do on electronic keyboards. (Although if they really wanted to go
thru the headache they could. There are MIDI keyboards which can download
tuning tables from say a computer or a sequencer. Or maybe in the styles
of music which would tend to adopt synthesizers one shouldn't expect
musicians to worry too much about shrutis)

And one can also ask, was there a specific empty niche the violin found in
Carnatic music? Was it experimentation for the mere joy of experimentation?
(With then lasting results)












From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr  Thu Mar 27 22:50:35 1997
From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 23:50:35 +0100
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029157.23782.2581355753653294722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello. I am interested in knowing the origins of churki, the tuft of hair
traditionally worn by some brahmins. Is there a mythological tradition,
e.g. with K.r.s.na, is there a ritual usage, was its use restricted to 
certain brahmin gotras or to certain sectarian or local traditions, etc. 
Was wearing a churki a sign of opposition to modernism in this century,
was there any discrimination towards people wearing it, is there a revival
of its usage in certain circles, does it mean anything today?
Also, what is the linguistic origin of the word? What is the sanskrit 
equivalent?
Thank you for pointing me to relevant sources, and I'll summarize.
Gerard Huet





From bpj at netg.se  Fri Mar 28 05:11:42 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 07:11:42 +0200
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029162.23782.1136827466160000129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 19:46 27.3.1997 +0000, Jacob Baltuch wrote:


>One point I didn't see mentioned re: the adoption of violin (and not
>of other European instruments). Maybe what also favored it was the
>fact that it can play in any tuning, not only the equal-tempered one
>(unlike say the guitar or European wind instruments)? Sure, individualities
>are key, but one can also ask, why did only the violin find such
>individualities while other Euro. instruments didn't. Note the violin is
>also the only European instrument adopted into classical Arabic music.

Isn't the same true of China?

Philip Jonsson <bpj at netg.se>







From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Mar 28 12:32:53 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 07:32:53 -0500
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029165.23782.17948491163777458245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	"Sikhaa (or "se.n.dii in Marathi) was indeed a sign of Brahmanhood
untill recently.  Growing hair was considered a sign of westernization and
I have been told of the stories of my father's confrontations with my
grandfather on this issue.  Indeed when I was growing up in Poona, wearing
a "sikhaa was basically done by the ultra-orthodox Brahmins and
functioning priests, and the few boys in my school who did continue this
practice were severely ridiculed by others.  I remember that after my own
Upanayana ceremony at the age of eight, which was the only time I had this
"sikhaa, I was too ashamed to show my head in the school, and suffered
some ridicule until my hair grew back to their normal length.  However, in
pre-modern Maharashtra, at least the evidence of ballads from the medieval
times suggests that even the Maratha kings may have practised this custom.
In a ballad describing the death of Sambhaaji (Shivaaji's son) at the
hands of Aurangzeb, the Muslim captor offers to let Sambhaaji live, if he
would cut off his "se.n.dii and grow his beard, both of which would be
indications of his conversion to Islam.
	In the context of modernity, the few Upanayanas of Marathi Brahman
boys that I have seen take place here in Michigan, the boy was spared this
particular custom, to avoid him being ridiculed at school.
	All the best,
				Madhav Deshpande 

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Pierre Filliozat wrote:

> The hindi curkii or cu.tiyaa probably derives from the sanskrit cuu.daa.
> The tuft of hair plays a ritualistic role in Tantric pratices. This is one
> of the parts of the body which are concerned with ritualistic actions such
> as placing mantras on the body (ritual of sakaliikara?na). But in Tantric
> texts the sanskrit word "sikhaa is generally used in that sense. In "saiva
> tantras the "sikhaa is tuft of hair representing the intermediate space
> between the brahmarandhra and the point called dvaada"santa 12 inches
> above. See for example Brunner-Lachaux, Soma"sambhupaddhati, Pondicherry
> 1963, etc.
> 
> Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat
> 
> 
> 
> 






From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu  Fri Mar 28 15:34:42 1997
From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 07:34:42 -0800
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029172.23782.4987531168359886900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


In Kannada, or at least our particular brand of it, the top knot is called
ju.tu . Any true Kannada speakers can correct me....
In my own Upanayanam, which happened twelve years ago in Chikamagaluru, I
was spared this ritual, but endured a "symbolic" cutting of a few
strands of hair by the village barber, phew.
Amongst many  Iyengars, and Madhavas, the top knot is still worn, but
differently than the "run-of-the-mill" tail at the top of the head.
Instead, the front of the scalp is shaved and the rest of the hair is
allowed to grow long, and then tied up. 
If anyone can explain this in a more thorough manner, please do so...I
would love to hear it!

cheers!
Chandan Narayan 









From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Fri Mar 28 14:41:19 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 08:41:19 -0600
Subject: Karma
Message-ID: <161227029167.23782.15540939042561318667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


  I have read that Jain and Buddhist Karma theories differ
very much. Can someone please elaborate?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Fri Mar 28 15:02:31 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 09:02:31 -0600
Subject: European musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029169.23782.1810106208541033537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



The growth of the colonial city of Madras has much to do with
incorporation of violin into Carnatic music. For example,
Baluswamy Dikshitar worked in Manali Ramakrishna Mudhaliar's
court. Pachaiyappa Muthaliar, the philanthropher, Manali muthaliar
are Dubashis for the British. They made fortunes as toll collectors,
intermediaries. Tanjore Quartet visited Madras often.
Seerkaazhi Arunasalak Kaviraayar, author of Ramma naaDakam,
was also patronized by Manali family. The Carnatic music trio
Muthusamy Dikshitar, uncle of Balusamy,  wrote on Manali family. Even today,
the descendents are trustees of many temples around Madras.

A good place to look for documents is Madras Music academy and
Tamil Isai sangam libraries. Of course, the persons to contact are
V. A. K. Rangarao, T. S. Parthasarathy and Le. Pa. Karu.Ramanathan
all of Madras. Shruti magazineof Carnatic music  has rare photos, articles.

Lalgudi Jayaraman, the famous violinist always says violin has
been with us for long. He has written few articles in popular 
magazines with photos from Rajagopurams of Tiruchy, Tanjore district
temples. They are remarkably like violin and must predate the British violin.
One of them from Lalgudi SaptarishIsvarar temple itself.

What is "yaazh" of old Tamil literature? Is it a kind of harp?

N. Ganesan







From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Fri Mar 28 15:30:57 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 09:30:57 -0600
Subject: Q: Karma References
Message-ID: <161227029171.23782.16751660568190256230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


  I have read that Jain and Buddhist Karma theories differ
very much. Can someone please elaborate?

What are the references of books/articles?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan






From pfilliozat at magic.fr  Fri Mar 28 09:08:27 1997
From: pfilliozat at magic.fr (pfilliozat at magic.fr)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 10:08:27 +0100
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029163.23782.16109029216696546266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The hindi curkii or cu.tiyaa probably derives from the sanskrit cuu.daa.
The tuft of hair plays a ritualistic role in Tantric pratices. This is one
of the parts of the body which are concerned with ritualistic actions such
as placing mantras on the body (ritual of sakaliikara?na). But in Tantric
texts the sanskrit word "sikhaa is generally used in that sense. In "saiva
tantras the "sikhaa is tuft of hair representing the intermediate space
between the brahmarandhra and the point called dvaada"santa 12 inches
above. See for example Brunner-Lachaux, Soma"sambhupaddhati, Pondicherry
1963, etc.

Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat







From srini at engin.umich.edu  Fri Mar 28 15:46:59 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 10:46:59 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029174.23782.603464957704668204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	Akbar College. Pandit Subramaniam, who I have had the happy opportunity to
	experience in concert, is obviously well-trained in a Western style and
	very able in every technical and musical way--the method of bowing always
	tells the tale. For him, such a manner of playing represents an adaptation
	of Western training to Indian performance ways. That is not true for many,
	if not most of, Indian violinists. Indian-trained violinists tend to have
	a wild and raspy wound, not vocal at all, and rather like home-grown
	fiddlers everywhere, even if they are in a formidable possession of
	musical knowledge. 

What a <prefix>load of nonsense !  You *obviously* have little 
exposure to the breadth/depth of Carnatic "violinistry" and the 
requirements, expectations of Carnatic music.  

	It is not really comfortable to play the violin sitting down, if comfort 
	were the determining factor--which in the case of Indian violin-playing 
	it is not. There is not a feeling of rightness with the instrument that 
	is the case with sarod, sitar, and probably srangi. I cannot speak for 
	the vina. I sense that Indian instrumental playing is
	related to the lap as a center of weight and balance. The violin was not
	designed with that orientation in mind. Pandit Subramanian, of course,
	plays well and has adapted his exquisite musicianship to the tradional
	requirements of Carnatic music....Max Langley

The give-away in your entire article is that you hold "Pandit" 
Subramaniam as a yardstick for Carnatic "violinistry" and Carnatic 
music.  L.Subramaniam may sound wonderful to you from your specific 
perspective of looking for Western violin technique from Indian 
violinists... but he is a very average Carnatic musician, who
nevertheless has had a lot of exposure in the West.  And as regards 
violin technique needed for Carnatic music, many others are/were
better.

-Srini.





From dmenon at pacific.net.sg  Fri Mar 28 02:57:04 1997
From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 10:57:04 +0800
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029158.23782.15095548680719050614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In an earlier posting Max Langley referred to the scratchiness of the bowing 
of Indian violinists.

Perhaps he should listen to  a virtuoso like Kunnakudi Vaidanathan who has 
demonstrated the full extend of the capability of the Violin in Indian music. 
Many purists (all?) would object to Mr. Vaidanathan's style of playing. I 
have watched a couple of his live performances and has listened to a 
number of his recordings, and I have not noticed any scratchiness in his 
bowing, even at his highest speed of playing. I am sure that even the best 
western violinist will be hard pressed to play the violin without scratchiness 
at the speed with which Mr. Vaidanathan plays.

What I wish to point out is that it is certainly possible to play the violin in 
the style of the Carnatic music without any scratchiness. I mentioned Mr. 
Vaidanathan, because he is well known, I have watched a number of other 
men and women musicians (from age 15 to 73) who plays without any 
scratchiness.

Regards...Das





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Fri Mar 28 16:29:08 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 11:29:08 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029175.23782.7935349952495044500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	But this ritual impurity associated with saliva does not stop
	Indians from playing the bamboo flute or the shehnai or the nadaswaram.
	Saliva necessarily touches these instruments in the act of playing. And
	the flute is Krishna's instrument, while most festivals are incomplete
	without shehnais or nadaswarams. No justification is offered. The
	nadaswaram is quite openly described in Tamil as "echchal (saliva) 
	vAdyam (instrument)", although it is also considered an auspicious
	instrument.
 				
In an official letter written in 1885, the Maharaja of Travancore 
mentions that Brahmins in his kingdom didn't play the flute for 
reasons of impurity... his letter was in response to the questions 
of the Madras Gayana Samaj members about the music and instruments 
then prevalent in Travancore.

This notion may have been regional since the situation in late 
19th/20th century Carnatic music is totally at odds with this... 
Sarabha Sastri (who is said to have been quite orthodox),  his
disciple Palladam Sanjeeva Rao,  and later Mali were all Brahmins 
from the Tamil area and celebrated flutists.

-Srini.





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Mar 28 16:46:03 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 11:46:03 -0500
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029177.23782.14149189166513391952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-03-28 06:03:35 EST, pfilliozat at magic.fr (Pierre
Filliozat) writes:

<< The hindi curkii or cu.tiyaa probably derives from the sanskrit cuu.daa.
  >>
According to A.L. Turner, the Sanskrit 'cuu.daa' may have been derived from
Dravidian or Munda. See A Comparative Dictionary of Indo-Aryan Languages by
(item #4883). See also Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (Tamil - cuu.tu
meaning to wear, esp. on the head; noun- hair tuft, crest, comb---item #
2247)





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Mar 28 12:57:22 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 12:57:22 +0000
Subject: Velthuis-for-mac
Message-ID: <161227029166.23782.17185971658220048956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Francois Patte has kindly made available a Mac executable for the current
version of the Velthuis TeX Devanagari (including hyphenation).

This is now available via the INDOLOGY web site, under "Supplementary
files...".  See file "Devanagari.sea.hqx[.readme]".
This can also be fetched by ftp directly from

  ftp.ucl.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software



On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Patte wrote:


> You will find attached with this mail a file "Devanagari.sea.hqx". It is
> a folder for the use of Velthuis's devanagari with OzTeX on a Mac-Intosh.
> This contains : - a short note to install
>            - latest version of preprocessor "devnag" which make hyphenation
>              avalaible.
>            - latest version of *.mf and *.tfm files to be run with this version
>              of the preprocessor.
>            - dev2e.sty, OT1dn.fd
> 
> I hope this will be helpfull for those who run Mac-Intosh.
> I'll make the same with latest version of "sanskrit's Wikner"
 

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From rdsaran at umich.edu  Fri Mar 28 18:38:07 1997
From: rdsaran at umich.edu (Richard D. Saran)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 13:38:07 -0500
Subject: Middle Marvari word
Message-ID: <161227029178.23782.16616442187354530231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am interested in the derivation of the MiM word cindhaRa/cindhaRiyo,
which refers to a type of soldier in Middle Period Rajasthan.  Might it be
related to the Sanskrit compound cihnadhara?  Has anyone ever encounted
cihnadhara in a context that suggests "soldier" would be an appropriate
meaning?

Any suggestions?

Thank you,

Richard D. Saran
South Asia Division
Graduate Library
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
USA
(313) 936-2346
rdsaran at umich.edu







From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Mar 28 19:06:00 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:06:00 -0500
Subject: Middle Marvari word
Message-ID: <161227029180.23782.6706850545487614333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For this word, one may explore the possible connection with the Sanskrit
root chind "to cut, to tear".  In Marathi, the word cindhii occurs in the
sense of a torn strip of cloth, but in a Marathi poem, the soldier/gaurd
says to the intruder:  "Be warned.  Don't take even one step forward, I
will cut you down to pieces" (khabardaar, jar .taac maarunii yaal pu.dhe
cindha.dyaa u.davin raai raai eva.dhyaa).  Here the word cindha.dii is
used in the sense of torn pieces.  It is conceivable that the  Marwari
word cindhaRa/cindhaRiyo is a derivation from the agentive formation from
the root chid with the affix t.r : chindit.r, (already Prakritic, because
the standard Paninian form will be chett.r).  While the Sanskrit form is
chinatti, the form chindati is widely attested in Prakrits.
	Madhav Deshpande

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Richard D. Saran wrote:

> I am interested in the derivation of the MiM word cindhaRa/cindhaRiyo,
> which refers to a type of soldier in Middle Period Rajasthan.  Might it be
> related to the Sanskrit compound cihnadhara?  Has anyone ever encounted
> cihnadhara in a context that suggests "soldier" would be an appropriate
> meaning?
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Richard D. Saran
> South Asia Division
> Graduate Library
> University of Michigan
> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> USA
> (313) 936-2346
> rdsaran at umich.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 






From jftzgrld at utkux.utcc.utk.edu  Fri Mar 28 20:10:40 1997
From: jftzgrld at utkux.utcc.utk.edu (James L. Fitzgerald)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 15:10:40 -0500
Subject: Middle Marvari word
Message-ID: <161227029181.23782.7644743278024102733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The cpd cihnadhara occurs only one time in the MBh, at 6.19.26c, where
it is an adjective modifying mahaadhvaja.  Here is the zloka, quoted
from the Tokunaga e-text of the Poona text:

006.019.0261/.teSaam.aaditya.candra.aabhaah.kanaka.uttama.bhuuSaNaah./
006.019.0263/.naanaa.cihna.dharaa.raajan.ratheSv.aasan.mahaa.dhvajaah.//


The passage occurs in van Buitenen's Bhagavad Gita in the MBh, pp.
58-59, and he translated the zloka:  "There were tall standards on their
chariots . . . . adorned with the finest gold and bearing many emblems."

Jim Fitzgerald

Richard D. Saran wrote:
> 
> I am interested in the derivation of the MiM word cindhaRa/cindhaRiyo,
> which refers to a type of soldier in Middle Period Rajasthan.  Might it be
> related to the Sanskrit compound cihnadhara?  Has anyone ever encounted
> cihnadhara in a context that suggests "soldier" would be an appropriate
> meaning?
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Richard D. Saran
> South Asia Division
> Graduate Library
> University of Michigan
> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> USA
> (313) 936-2346
> rdsaran at umich.edu





From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Sat Mar 29 01:49:50 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 17:49:50 -0800
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029185.23782.13122912701149943468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Chandan Raghava Narayan wrote:

> 
> In Kannada, or at least our particular brand of it, the top knot is called
> ju.tu . Any true Kannada speakers can correct me....
> In my own Upanayanam, which happened twelve years ago in Chikamagaluru, I
> was spared this ritual, but endured a "symbolic" cutting of a few
> strands of hair by the village barber, phew.

This has become the most prevalent practice nowadays. A symbolic cutting
followed by a quick shower, and then the rest of the upanayanam ceremony
goes on. One variation (sAmavedins?) insists on a complete shave of the
head before an upanayanam, but the standard version is to shave off an arc
at the front of the head. 

> Amongst many  Iyengars, and Madhavas, the top knot is still worn, but
> differently than the "run-of-the-mill" tail at the top of the head.
> Instead, the front of the scalp is shaved and the rest of the hair is
> allowed to grow long, and then tied up. 

This is the standard "kuDumi" in the Tamil regions. Nowadays, only
professional purohitas and temple priests sport such a knot. 

Among the nambudiris, the knot is tied not behind the head, but
above the forehead. It's called mun-kuDumi. 

Vidyasankar






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sat Mar 29 01:15:45 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 20:15:45 -0500
Subject: Solution to the 'sUtra'-'nUl' problem
Message-ID: <161227029183.23782.13283536098960577533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

We are all concerned about the texts, e-texts, net (internet)  and the web
(sites). But these terms seem to have a more interesting connection in the
Indian ,or at least Dravidian, pre-history. If your curiosity is piqued,
please read on.

For quite some time, I have been puzzled by the similarity of the concepts of
text and thread in Sanskrit and Tamil, the words used being ?sUtra? and
?nUl/nuval? in the respective languages. Given the fact, that Sanskrit terms
are occurring much earlier in Sanskrit texts, one would normally expect that
Sanskrit may be the source. But the contextual usage of the relevant word in
Tamil/Dravidian seemed to suggest to me that it was independently derived.
Finally, two days back, I got a breakthrough insight which seemed to clearly
establish the etymology of the Tamil word. The solution is so simple and
elegant that I was quite excited and I did not want to wait until
thecompletion of my paper, but wanted to share my discovery with the list
members. I have to thank Dr. Asko Parpola whose paper sparked the
inspiration. Here is the story. I also should thank Malten and Lehmann for
their index of Classical Tamiln (CT).

In searching for some other word in CT, I came across the word ?cilampi?
meaning ?spider?. Even though I have noticed that word before, on that day, wh
en I saw that word, I was suddenly reminded of Parpola?s discussion of the
etymology of the word ?kinnaram? in his article on the pre-Vedic background
of zrauta rituals. Immediately, everything fell into place. I am giving below
just the conclusions I have reached. I shall reserve the references, etc. for
the paper.

?cilai?, and ?cilampu? are related words (DEDR 1574) derived from a
proto-Dravidian root *kil. In CT, ?cilai? refers to shouting by warriors,
animal  roars/cries, thunder, sound of drums, sound of a lute, etc., and
?cilampu? is used to refer to the sound of drums, anklets, various sounds
echoing on the hill-side, etc. ?cilampi? the spider does not produce any
sound/cry/shout of its own. But, it does produce something else through its
mouth (as believed by Tamils/Dravidians) - ?vAy nUl? or (literally ?thread of
the mouth?). This realization of the commonness of the source of vocalization
of animal noise as well as ?thread? or ?cobweb? must have led them to name
the spider as ?cilampi? literally meaning ?that which ?cilampu?s. (I am sure,
the word ?cilumpu? (DEDR 2569) meaning ?to flow out? ?gush out? is also
related to these words in the sense of sound or fluid flowing out of a
source)  From here, the rationale for the same term ?nuval? for both thread
and text can be easily understood. (In CT, ?nuval? does not occur in the
sense of thead or text. But the presence of Hala Kannada word ?nugulu?,
Koraga word ?nuglu?, the well-known alternation of ?k? or ?g? and  ?v?
intervocalically in Dravidian, and the presence of ?nuval? as part of
?panuval? meaning cotton/cotton thread or text clearly shows that the orginal
form of the word should have been ?nuval?.)

?nuval? is a compound of ?nu? and ?val?. ?nu?  in the meaning of ?fine? or
?narrow? or ?sharp? occurs as a root in many Tamil words.  ?val? is a root in
words like ?vala? meaning ?to encircle, surround, spin as a spider its
thread, plait, weave, string in a series, tie, bind? and the word ?valai?
meaning ?net? and ?web? (See DED 4326). Thus ?nuval? is the fine web thread
spun by the spider. One can understand the aptness of using nuval in the case
of the web thread. But how can one explain the extended use of the word
?nuval? in the context of utterance, song, praise, sound of drums, sound of
cuckoo bird, texts, etc.? The answer lies in the arguments for the basic
semantic commonness of the words ?cilai?, ?cilampu? and ?cilampi? that we
discussed earlier. Given the fact, early texts were mostly oral texts, one
can see the semantic expansion from vocalization to songs, text, etc. That
the fine thread of the web is the source for the word for the text will also
explain the hackneyed description of texts as well as threads as being
'fine'. 

Any man-made thread is later than the thread of the spider web. In Dravidian,
cognates of ?nuval? occur in all the major groups. Compared to ?nuval?, the
word ?izai? has a much narrower distribution. The use of ?nuval? in the
context of spun cotton thread suggests to me the word could even pre-date
weaving or at least to proto-Dravidian stage. Even though, cognates of
?nuval? meaning ?song, text? occur only in South Dravidian, the references in
CT suggest that those usages go back considerably earlier.

I have a suspicion that there was probably some alternation or
alternation-cum- semantic specialization between l and L  in some Dravidian
roots (kil vs kiL) at the proto-Dravidian stage as suggested by the following
words.

kiLa - to express clearly, speak  		           cilai - to shout, sound
kiLappu - speech, utterance		                cilampu - sound
kiLampu - to shoot up, sprout, go out	      cilumpu - to flow out, gush out	
kiLappam - rising, swelling  		                cilanti - pimple, small boil

As a result of the retroflexion, one would expect the initial ?k? before ?i?
to be preserved in Tamil as noted by Dravidian linguists. (In fact, with
respect to entries in DEDR 2017b, DEDR says some Gondi, Konda, Pengo and Kui
words can be considered cognates of either kiLa or cilai.) Since the ?kiL-?
forms come directly from proto-Dravidian while ?cil-?  forms show
palatalization after the Tamil-Malayalam group separated from South
Dravidian. On the whole, the forms with ?kiL? seem to have a semantic range
similar to the semantic range of ?cil-? . This means ?cilampi? which occurs
in CT, probably dates from proto-Dravidian. In that case, it is possible that
?nuval? could also have the wide semantic range including spider?s thread and
oral compositions.

Coming to the Indo-Aryan (IA) side, the spider is conspicuously absent in
Sanskrit words related to ?sUtra? as shown by the Comparative Dictionary of
Indo-Aryan Languages (CDIAL). As for other IA languages, only Marathi has a
word ?suterA? meaning ?spider, the thread which it spins?. Since Marathi is
the Indo-Aryan lanaguage exhibiting a lot of Dravidian influence, the
influence of  the thread of spider?s web or ?net? in creating a word for text
seems to be a Dravidian feature and not Indo-Aryan. IA languages also do not
have 'sUtra' used in connection with animal sounds or musical instruments
like drums.Since, etymological statements across language families is ?an act
of faith? as Emeneau said, I defer to Indo-Europeanists to decide on the
history of usage of ?sUtra? on the IA side.

In conclusion, as far as Tamil/Dravidian is concerned, in spite of what
earlier grammarians said, the basic metaphor of a text is not ?weaving? by
humans using a loom, but the thread of the web (or net) woven by the spider.
 So is  it not a coincidence that after thousands of years, we are still
caught in the ?web?.

Regards.

S. Palaniappan






From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu  Sat Mar 29 05:18:33 1997
From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 21:18:33 -0800
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029187.23782.4881681691143682652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


It's funny that the word kuDumi is used in tamil...an anecdote connected
with this word is here described:

In my first attempts at understanding the nuances of high school
calculus, my father would observe me in this seemingly never-ending
struggle and exclaim..."kuDami mAdri vASkI" (in Hebbar tamil translates
into "read like a bookworm!")

In KannaDa, kuDami is most often associated with intense studying, in a
greater context of ridicule. I guess this has to do with brahma.na-s and
their association with studying/reading. 

...comments?

warmly,
Chandan Narayan, obviously spending too much time adding his two-cents.









From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Sat Mar 29 06:30:29 1997
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 22:30:29 -0800
Subject: Question on Patanjali (Kashmir and P's MB)
Message-ID: <161227029189.23782.17862430823044209548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As I was away for a conference, I could read S. Palaniappan?s highly
informative message of 24 March only today.  I very much appreciate the
trouble he took. It is such exchange of information across the divides
which the early Indologists' taxonomies and the linguistic reorganization
of India have created and accentuated that I consider one of the most
important contributions the INDOLOGY list is making. The overarching
capabilities that great scholars like S. Kuppuswami Sastri, V. Raghavan and
K.A. Nilakanta Sastri had can now be realised in Indology, it seems, only
through sharing of information that occurs on INDOLOGY.







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sat Mar 29 04:10:33 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 23:10:33 -0500
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029186.23782.9042023445914027422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-03-28 22:20:40 EST, vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar
Sundaresan) writes:

<< Among the nambudiris, the knot is tied not behind the head, but
 above the forehead. It's called mun-kuDumi. 
  >>
In a Tamil novel called 'Ponniyin Celvan', there was a character
'AzvArkkaTiyAn', a vIravaiSNava. He was depicted as having 'munkuTumi'. Is
there any evidence for these vaiSNavas to have such a knot?

Regards.

S. Palaniappan





From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl  Sat Mar 29 00:54:56 1997
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 23:54:56 -0100
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029190.23782.14250903205851547194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Replies to msg 28 Mar 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
(cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu)

 cbe> In Kannada, or at least our particular brand of it, the top
 cbe> knot is called
 cbe> ju.tu . Any true Kannada speakers can correct me....

Ju.t.tu - long, doubled '.t', otherwise it's perfectly standard Kannada.

 cbe> Amongst many  Iyengars, and Madhavas, the top knot is still
 cbe> worn, but
 cbe> differently than the "run-of-the-mill" tail at the top of
 cbe> the head.
 cbe> Instead, the front of the scalp is shaved and the rest of
 cbe> the hair is
 cbe> allowed to grow long, and then tied up.
 cbe> If anyone can explain this in a more thorough manner,
 cbe> please do so...I
 cbe> would love to hear it!

information, without textual corroboration), there are different styles
according to the Vedic tradition to which the wearer belongs: thus
Atharvavedins were not supposed to have a ju.t.tu at all, but to shave their
heads completely, and the style of the ju.t.tu in the case of the others was
determined by the "saakhaa to which they belonged. (I believe that .Rgvedins
were supposed to wear a broader one than Yajurvedins, but I am not completely
sure.)

But also, the ju.t.tu was largely a matter of fashion. Still about a hundred
years ago in southern coastal Karnataka, any man could walk around with a
ju.t.tu: brahmin, sudra, Hindu, Jaina, everyone. And still today in Bangalore,
ju.t.tu-s are seen.

Robert Zydenbos
Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl






From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl  Sat Mar 29 01:03:24 1997
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 00:03:24 -0100
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029191.23782.12406251942156143014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Replies to msg 28 Mar 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (mmdesh at umich.edu)

 me> =09"Sikhaa (or "se.n.dii in Marathi) was indeed a sign of
 me> Brahmanhood
 me> untill recently.  Growing hair was considered a sign of
 me> westernization and
 me> I have been told of the stories of my father's
 me> confrontations with my
 me> grandfather on this issue.  Indeed when I was growing up in
 me> Poona, wearing
 me> a "sikhaa was basically done by the ultra-orthodox Brahmins
 me> and
 me> functioning priests, and the few boys in my school who did
 me> continue this
 me> practice were severely ridiculed by others.  I remember that
 me> after my own
 me> Upanayana ceremony at the age of eight, which was the only
 me> time I had this
 me> "sikhaa, I was too ashamed to show my head in the school,
 me> and suffered
 me> some ridicule until my hair grew back to their normal
 me> length.  

My father-in-law shaved off his ju.t.tu at a rather early age, and this was
resented by the relatives in the village; his eldest brother wore one
throughout his life, and his second brother still wears his. But his sons, my
brothers-in-law, have "gone to the dogs" completely: they wear shirts,
trousers, and certainly no ju.t.tu. This sense of embarrassment is, as one may
expect, determined by a number of factors, personal and environmental. I know
people in big cities like Mysore and Bangalore who sport splendid ju.t.tu-s
without the least embarrassment. But for real ju.t.tu artistry, one should go
to Melkote.

Perhaps in Pune too there is what we might call the "surreptitious ju.t.tu"
which is frequently seen in urban Karnataka: a man seems to have a headful of
ordinary hair, but if you observe closely, you find a small knot of longer hair
at the back of his head, visible only if you know what to look for... This is
typical of those who in their heart of hearts are orthodox, but who think that
their social position, or whatever, demands that they should follow modern
fashions.

Robert Zydenbos
Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl






From jaybee at tm.net.my  Sat Mar 29 09:41:57 1997
From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 01:41:57 -0800
Subject: Other Festivals Too.
Message-ID: <161227029512.23782.8257367149234057927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-04-08 01:37:12 EDT, vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar
> Sundaresan) writes:
> 
> << On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, JAYABARATHI wrote:
> 
>  [..]
> 
>  > The Medeival Tamils followed the Solar calender more faithfully.
>  > In the Chola and Pandya inscriptions, we find that the Tamil months were
> actually named after the Signs of the
>  > Zodiac.
>  > When the Sun was in Aries i.e. MEsha, The corresponding Tamil month was
> called MEda NyAyiRu..Taurus(Rishabha)
>  > =Idaba NyAyiRu.; Pisces = MIna NyAyiRu.
> 
>  The Malayalam calender still names its months meDam, iDavam etc. As in
>  many other things, Malayalam speaking people have preserved more of this
>  Tamil heritage than contemporary Tamil speakers.
> 
>  Vidyasankar
>   >>
> In the post-Classical Tamil work cilappatikAram, a specific date for burning
> down of Madurai is specified. I am giving it below.
> 
> In the month of ATi (AshADa)
> in the dark fortnight
> of the kArttika asterism ("azal cEr kuTTattu")
> on the day of aSTami
> on a Friday
> the famous Madurai will be consumed by fire.
> 
> It is obvious lunar month was followed here. Considering the fact that the
> author of the text iLaGko was supposed to be from Kerala, I wonder what any
> one can say about which calendar was used. The present reckoning of years in
> Kerala is called kollam era based on the coming to power of some kings near
> kollam around 800 AD(?) Do we know what calendar they followed before that?
> 
> Some people from Tirunelveli District also use kollam era (at least some of
> my relatives still do) probably due to Keralan rule over parts of Tirunelveli
> and Kanyakumari Districts.
> 
> Regards
> 
> S. PalaniappanBravo Mr.Palaniappan,
You have pointed out that the lunar calender has been used in the post-
Sangam literature of SilappadhikAram, which mentions the month of Adi.
I appreciate that.
In concurrence with your words,may I be allowed to corroborate further...
Ther is a verse associated with the Kamba RAmAyanam which states the day, 
month, and year of the arangEtram of it.It is pupported to have taken 
place in Saka Era 807, month of PANGUNI,on the nakshatra of Hastham.
eNNiya sakAththam eNNUtru
Elzin mEl sadaiyan vAlzvu
naNNiya veNNainallUr
thannile kambanAdan
paNNiya rAmakAthai
panguni aththa nAlil
kaNNiya arngin munne
kavi arangEtrinAne !
This verse is definitely post-Kamban and has been interpolated into the 
main work.However, most scholars do not question the veracity of the 
verse.However late it might be, it could not be far behind in time.
The point to be noted is that, while Panguni is found in this song, the 
inscriptions of that time were mentioning it as mIna nyAyiru.
But PANGUNI is also mentioned by name in the famous sangam liiterature-
none other than the famous and glorious PuRanAnURu itself!
In puRanAnURu 229th song it is mentioned that, on a particular day of
the month of PANGUNI , there were ominous readings made of the nakshatras 
kAthigai,anusham,uththaram, and mirugasIridam, while a star fell from the 
sky , heralding the death of the CeramAn king , yAnaikkat cEy kanai
kkAl irumpoRai.
Adu iyal alzalkUttaththu
Arirul arai iravil
mudappanaiyathu vEr mudhalAk
kadaikulaththuk kayangkAyap
PANGUNI uyar ulzuvaththuth
thalainAN mIn nilai thiriya
nilai nAN mIn adhan ethir Er tharath
thonnAN mInthuRai padiya .....etc.,
I did not mention earlier on, that  there are two versions of the Solar 
Calender used in India. 
One follows the fixed Zodiac System whereas the other follows the Moving 
Zodiac system.
The calender based on the fixed zodiac is known as the Vikrami calender 
and that of the moving is called the Saka Calender.This differance is 
because of something known as the Precession of Equinox.The saka month 
always starts on the 20th or the 21st of the corresponding Christian 
month, while the Vikrami does so on the 13th or 14th of the corresponding 
Christian  month.
The fixed Zodiac system is known as the Nirayana, and that of the moving 
Zodiac is known as the Sayana.
Indian Astrologers use the fixed system more often for casting horscopes 
and predicting the events of an individual, country, or the world.
The moving system is used in meteorology, and for keeping records.
In the Saka Era, both the MeshAdi (Solar) and ChaitrAdi (lunar) 
nomenclature have been used.
So it is possible that both systems of the Solar Calender together with
the Lunar Calender had been used since ancient times.
The Kollam era started in 824 A.D.It is generally accepted to correspond
to the founding of the city of Kollam.This era has been used in both the
Kerala and the Southern Pandiya Country. In the same area , the Kali Yuga 
Era was also used. We find two epigraphical records in Anaimalai rock-cut 
temple in Madurai District.
So , Before the advent of the kollam era, the Kali Yuga era must have 
been used.
In Kerala there is still another calender based on the transit of the 
planet Jupiter.This is known as VIYAALZA VALLAM.The Tamil records  of	
Baskara Ravi Varman are dated with this system.
The southern Pandiyan territory is the present Kanyakumari and 
Tirunelveli Districts.

S.JAYABARATHI
jaybee at tm.net.my
Sungai Petani,
Malaysia.





From davidi at wizard.net  Sat Mar 29 14:53:11 1997
From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 09:53:11 -0500
Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play?
Message-ID: <161227029196.23782.7841384012502259401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch parenthetically asks --

> Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :)
> an honest assessment of A. Danielou as an Indologist?

I, for one, would vote for listproc posts on that question (rather 
than backchannel) -- at least to the extent that I'd be interested to 
learn what some experts might have to say on that topic.  His book of 
essays *Rasa* did seem a worthy curiousity (tho haven't looked at it 
in recent years).

d.i.
..
.....
............
\\\\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\\\\
>    david   raphael   israel     <
 >>    washington  d.c.    <<
|   davidi at wizard.net  (home)
|   disrael at skgf.com   (office)
=========================
| through recklessness woundingly worthless
|                                       i guess we became:
| the more we became in abandon
|                                      the less we became
///////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\///////
Mirza Ghalib (according to yours truly)





From davidi at wizard.net  Sat Mar 29 17:58:46 1997
From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 12:58:46 -0500
Subject: churki / China & India
Message-ID: <161227029199.23782.12545947309592664021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> From:          Swami Vishvarupananda writes --

> I know a pandit whose churki was tied (by a rope) to a hook by his
> grandfather while teaching him, so that he had to sit straight and
> stay put! That happened many years ago, of course.

You know, something comparable is found in old Chinese tradition.  
The que [?] worn by Mandarins -- it was, I believe, originally 
introduced & enforced by the domineering Mongols, and marked the 
Chinese bureaucrats under their charge as a a sort of subsurvient 
class, if I'm not mistaken; but anyway, as such things do, it caught 
on . . . [I don't really know the history, what I'm here for is to 
share the comparative anecdote that follows] -- the que was certainly 
associated, it seems, with the whole scholarly gestalt; and there are 
some classic tales very much like the above --

but the typical instance is found in a sort of morality anecdote, 
involving a highly dedicated student studying for the inevitable 
national examination (the entryway to all official positions) -- who, 
in late-night (or all-night) sessions of study, will tie his que by 
rope to (say) the ceiling -- SO THAT, if he should doze off, he'll be 
awakened by the tug on the ponytail [imprecise, this] and wake up & 
get back to the business of studiousness.  That became a well-known & 
prevalent image, and prob. appears all over the place in literary 
allusions.  So, a cultural-comparative note, that.  I don't know if 
there's any sort of historical relationship between the Brahmanical & 
the Mandarin verssions of this -- or even if they're physically very 
closely comparable.  But it's interesting that in both cases, there's 
a cultural association with study & scholarship.
 .
 .....
 ............
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\
   >    david   raphael   israel    <
   >>      washington  d.c.      <<
 |  davidi at wizard.net      (home)
 |  disrael at skgf.com      (office)
 =========================
 |   thy centuries follow each other
 |   perfecting a small wild flower
 |                                       (Tagore)
 //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\/////





From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Sat Mar 29 12:02:41 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 13:02:41 +0100
Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play?
Message-ID: <161227029193.23782.13867919999635219012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've read in a book by A. Danielou that a Greek papyrus
from the 2nd c. AD was found at Oxyr. which contained
a spoof on Euripides's "Iphigeneia [hi] en Taurois" in
which are found some Kannada words. Does anyone know
anything about this?

Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :)
an honest assessment of A. Danielou as an Indologist?

Thanks
Jacob














From pfilliozat at magic.fr  Sat Mar 29 12:06:08 1997
From: pfilliozat at magic.fr (pfilliozat at magic.fr)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 13:06:08 +0100
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029194.23782.5206985853242059654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In present times, it is a common observation that wearing the "sikhA is
ridiculed in schools and universities. But it was prominent in the fashion
of sages in the seventh century. It was a symbol of true knowledge. BAna
Bhatta imagines it as an instrument to punish false knowledge. See his
description of BhairavAcArya in Harshacarita III:
jaTIkRtaikade"salambamAnarudrAkSa"sankhaguTikena Urdhvabaddhena
"sikhApA"sena badhnantam iva vidyAvalepadurvidagdhAn upari saMcarataH
siddhAn,
"with the noose of his "sikhA, jutting upwards, from the matted part of
which beads, shells and rudrAkSas were hanging, BhairavAcArya seemed to
bind the Siddhas roaming overhead, whose intelligence was vitiated by pride
in their crafts."

Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat







From davidi at wizard.net  Sat Mar 29 19:41:55 1997
From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 14:41:55 -0500
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029200.23782.9686577668749117220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Honorable Pandits & Indologists,

I just received the appended inquiry from a friend.  Might I impose 
upon this august body to the extent of seeking info on audio-sloka 
sources (specifically, Bhagavad Gita) for sake of my correspondent?

You might wish to respond backchannel (to me and/or Kendra) -- unless 
this might perhaps be felt to be of general (listproc) interest.

thanks, d.i.

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:24:48 -0500
From:          Kendra Crossen Burroughs <ezad at worldnet.att.net>
To:            "David R. Israel" <davidi at wizard.net>
Subject:       query: Gita tapes

Hi, David. Would you know where I could find out about audio tape
recordings of the Bhagavad Gita? My sister (who studies Sanskrit) is
looking for something with a real Indian pandit reading (or chanting)
in Sanskrit, with no musical background. She already has tapes from
the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi people and by someone named Houston, and a
Folkways recording. Wants to know of others. Know where could I
research this (on the internet)?





From dicko at netletter.com  Sat Mar 29 19:52:24 1997
From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 14:52:24 -0500
Subject: Vratyas
Message-ID: <161227029202.23782.297929454514885379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone know of recent sources for information regarding the Vra-tyas?
I've listed the sources I'm aware of below, but they're all rather old and
I've had difficulty finding any new information in journals or recently
published books. These sources are also rather sketchy about the actual
literary and/or archeological sources for their stated theories about the
Vra-tya and their relationship (or identity with) the Maga and/or Dravidians.

1. Sastri, Absorption of the Vratyas, 1926
2. Karmarkar, The Religions of India: The Vratya or Dravidian Systems, 1950
3. Choudhary, The Vratyas in Ancient India, Banaras, 1964

There are mentions in more recent overviews and general histories, but they
all seem to refer back to these three sources or the (somewhat scant)
information in the Vedas themselves.


--Dick Oliver ----------
  Cedar Science Center
  Wolcott, Vermont USA






From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in  Sat Mar 29 09:33:28 1997
From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 15:03:28 +0530
Subject: churki
Message-ID: <161227029197.23782.17748602652308111100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Chandan Narayan wrote:

It's funny that the word kuDumi is used in tamil...an anecdote connected
with this word is here described:

In my first attempts at understanding the nuances of high school
calculus, my father would observe me in this seemingly never-ending
struggle and exclaim..."kuDami mAdri vASkI" (in Hebbar tamil translates
into "read like a bookworm!")

In KannaDa, kuDami is most often associated with intense studying, in a
greater context of ridicule. I guess this has to do with brahma.na-s and
their association with studying/reading. 

I know a pandit whose churki was tied (by a rope) to a hook by his grandfather while teaching him, so that he had to sit straight and stay put! That happened many years ago, of course.

Greetings, 
Visharupananda
 




-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1750 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/19970329/cae9fd18/attachment.bin>

From max at newciv.org  Sat Mar 29 23:22:41 1997
From: max at newciv.org (Max)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 15:22:41 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029206.23782.3632732198718575292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear Bhagavad-Gita lovers on this list,

I have a recording of a performance by students of Samdeepany
Sadhanalaya (sp?) from the late 70's. 

For my own study purposes and to save the contents of the damaged 
tapes, I transferred the audio to CD-ROM (WAV files). I also
made a program to index the chapters and many of my favorites
verses. In other words, I can select '5-4' and get the chanting
of Chapter 5, verse 4. This way, you don't have to try to follow
through 3 (three!) hours of audio tapes to find a specific location,
a task that may be undoable for a beginner.

I was not successful in locating anybody who could/would claim
a copyright on this recording. I heard that India Book House Pvt.
in Bombay has a similar recording. I wrote there a year ago
but never got an answer (address is: Mahalaxmi Chambers, 5th Floor 
22, Bhulabhai Desai Rd, Bombay-400 026).

I suggest you try to contact them. 

Regarding my CD-ROM, I do not wish to make any profit off a 
recording of the Bhagavad-Gita, copyrighted or not, but I cannot
give the CD away for free (a blank CD costs still over 7$).

Perhaps someone on this list has a bright idea about how such a tool
could be made freely available (it's about 150 MBytes of disk space).

Max

----------------------------
 Maximilian J. Sandor, Ph.D.

 max at newciv.org
 msandor at jccc.medsch.ucla.edu
 http://www.newciv.org/max/





From mlangley at brinet.com  Sat Mar 29 21:10:25 1997
From: mlangley at brinet.com (Max Langley)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 16:10:25 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029203.23782.13862412848202980571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Pichumani,

Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I confess that I generally find
Carnatic music less interesting technically and musically than Hindustani,
but my standpoint is that of a lifelong string player at a very competent
level, and I am very fond of Indian music--a former student of Ali Akbar
Khan. It is still considered good manners, I believe, to append honorifics
to a well-respected and beloved person's name....or am I out of the loop?

Max Langley

----------
> From: Srinivasan Pichumani <srini at engin.umich.edu>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: european musical instruments in India
> Date: Friday, March 28, 1997 11:13 AM
> 
> 
> 	Akbar College. Pandit Subramaniam, who I have had the happy opportunity
to
> 	experience in concert, is obviously well-trained in a Western style and
> 	very able in every technical and musical way--the method of bowing
always
> 	tells the tale. For him, such a manner of playing represents an
adaptation
> 	of Western training to Indian performance ways. That is not true for
many,
> 	if not most of, Indian violinists. Indian-trained violinists tend to
have
> 	a wild and raspy wound, not vocal at all, and rather like home-grown
> 	fiddlers everywhere, even if they are in a formidable possession of
> 	musical knowledge. 
> 
> What a <prefix>load of nonsense !  You *obviously* have little 
> exposure to the breadth/depth of Carnatic "violinistry" and the 
> requirements, expectations of Carnatic music.  
> 
> 	It is not really comfortable to play the violin sitting down, if
comfort 
> 	were the determining factor--which in the case of Indian violin-playing

> 	it is not. There is not a feeling of rightness with the instrument that

> 	is the case with sarod, sitar, and probably srangi. I cannot speak for 
> 	the vina. I sense that Indian instrumental playing is
> 	related to the lap as a center of weight and balance. The violin was
not
> 	designed with that orientation in mind. Pandit Subramanian, of course,
> 	plays well and has adapted his exquisite musicianship to the tradional
> 	requirements of Carnatic music....Max Langley
> 
> The give-away in your entire article is that you hold "Pandit" 
> Subramaniam as a yardstick for Carnatic "violinistry" and Carnatic 
> music.  L.Subramaniam may sound wonderful to you from your specific 
> perspective of looking for Western violin technique from Indian 
> violinists... but he is a very average Carnatic musician, who
> nevertheless has had a lot of exposure in the West.  And as regards 
> violin technique needed for Carnatic music, many others are/were
> better.
> 
> -Srini.





From mgansten at sbbs.se  Sat Mar 29 21:46:19 1997
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 22:46:19 +0100
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029204.23782.16628647086230528026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Would you know where I could find out about audio tape
>recordings of the Bhagavad Gita? My sister (who studies Sanskrit) is
>looking for something with a real Indian pandit reading (or chanting)
>in Sanskrit, with no musical background. 

I don't have any answers to David's query, I'm afraid, but would appreciate
if those who do would care to share them with the list. Some of my Sanskrit
students have expressed similar desires for audio tapes with Sanskrit
reading -- not necessarily of the Gita, but in any case of some
not-too-unusual text, so that one can follow with book in hand.

(Personally, I very much enjoy stotra chanting with or without musical
background, so if someone knows a really good source for such recordings
outside India -- perhaps even in Europe -- I'd be grateful for that
information, too.)

Regards,
Martin Gansten






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Mar 30 05:27:06 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 00:27:06 -0500
Subject: Question on Patanjali (Kashmir and P's MB)
Message-ID: <161227029210.23782.4723049154691214062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

After my last posting in reply to Dr. Aklujkar's request for information, I
have come across a paper entitled, "A Non-Brahman Tamil S'aiva Mutt: A Field
Study of the Thiruvavaduthurai Adheenam" by Glenn E. Yocum in a book entitled
"Monastic Life in the Christian and Hindu Traditions: A Comparative Study"
edited by Austin B. Creel and Vasudha Narayanan. The notes at the end of the
paper mention a dissertation on the history of the three major mutts by
Kathleen Kopedrayer at McMaster University.

Regards.

S. Palaniappa







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Mar 30 05:46:07 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 00:46:07 -0500
Subject: Vratyas
Message-ID: <161227029211.23782.1309073178754453026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please see "The Pre-Vedic Background of S'rauta Rituals" by Asko Parpola  in
Volume II of  "AGNI: The Vedic Ritual of The Fire Altar" edited by Frits
Staal. 

Although I have not read it, I have heard his latest book has relevant
information as well.

Regards.

S. Palaniappan





From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Sun Mar 30 05:09:18 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 06:09:18 +0100
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029209.23782.9734041661057706720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings:

You wrote

>I don't have any answers to David's query, I'm afraid, but would appreciate
>if those who do would care to share them with the list. Some of my Sanskrit
>students have expressed similar desires for audio tapes with Sanskrit
>reading -- not necessarily of the Gita, but in any case of some
>not-too-unusual text, so that one can follow with book in hand.
>
>(Personally, I very much enjoy stotra chanting with or without musical
>background, so if someone knows a really good source for such recordings
>outside India -- perhaps even in Europe -- I'd be grateful for that
>information, too.)

I don't have an answer to those queries either (in fact I put
the very same query on the SANSKRIT list about a month ago w/
no result), but what I can say from personal experience is
that if one has trouble locating tapes with spoken readings,
there's no need to be afraid of musical renditions of texts.

Indeed *with book in hand* even musical renditions are
sometimes surprisingly not hard to follow at all.

I have a (3 CD 2:45 h.) rendition of the 24 songs in the
"Gitagovinda" sung by Ragunath Panigrahi, a singer from Cuttack
in Orissa and I could (if I wanted) write down the text under
dictation, it is that clear. If in addition one can look
at the text, making out what's being sung becomes the easiest
thing in the world.

I also have a piece of Nambudiri Rgveda recitation, and there
I couldn't make out the text by ear alone. However once you
are allowed to look at the text, it becomes not too hard to
follow.

Of course one may not be interested in vedic Sanskrit but
these were just two examples at two ends of the clarity and
the chronological spectra.

Note however that the pronunciation of Sanskrit used does not
coincide entirely with the textbook description. In the two
cases above it plainly does not, and I wonder if one is entitled
to expect that not to be the case with spoken readings. Maybe
it's just a fact of life one has to become acquainted with.

Cheers
Jacob







From davidi at wizard.net  Sun Mar 30 12:58:34 1997
From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 07:58:34 -0500
Subject: "Sandhyabasha"
Message-ID: <161227029212.23782.8661165277504530107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Respected Indologists --

on the Poetics listserv (based at Univ. of Buffalo, and an active hub 
for avant-chitchat), poet Gwyn McVay posted this inquiry:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date:          Sun, 30 Mar 1997 00:20:38 -0500
From:          Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1 at OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject:       Re: Further Thoughts on the "Interior Indentation"
To:            POETICS at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU

In her introduction to the City Lights edition of Kerouac's /Scripture
of the Golden Sutra/, Anne Waldman sez,

        Sanskrit poetics speaks of /Sandhyabasha/ or
        twilight speech, which is an "upside-down"
        language harboring contradictions and
        paradoxes.

I'd love to find out her source on this--it reminds me of the Sioux
(please correct me if I've misattributed this) /heyoka/,
thunder-clown, who lived, spoke, and acted backwards-- Gwyn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps the mentioned device in Sanskrit poetics is too familiar to 
merit special Indology discussion -- but I wonder if someone might 
care to present a few useful references abt. this?

[I myself recall reading (maybe 15-20 years ago) an essay on the topic 
by an Indologist (somehow I think the essay-book was published in 
USSR, oddly) -- but I forget the bloke's name or other particulars.  
I'd picked up the vol., so happens, at Shambhala Books in Berkeley; 
the subject was indeed an interesting one, in terms of poetics.  As I 
recall, the sort of backwards-speech in question (a form of irony) 
was traced back quite far -- I think to the Ramayana -- though 
naturally was more prevalent in far-subsequent court poetry & such.  
But I' m speaking here from a too-vague recollection of that essay.]

ALSO, while on this Sanskrit poetics topic:  is there, by chance, any 
manner of critical consensus regarding the lovely-looking translation 
of Sanskrit poetry verses, in which American poet W.S. Merwin was 
involved, entitled *The Peacock's Egg* (published by the erstwhile 
North Point Press), I wonder?  Merwin collaborated w/ that 
psycholigist chap Massoud (who managed, later, to get into some fine 
controversies, I've noted -- w/ the Freud Archives, et seq.)

thanks / best,
d.i.





From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Sun Mar 30 14:45:12 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 08:45:12 -0600
Subject: Sandhya bhasa
Message-ID: <161227029214.23782.5526920844674696280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


3/30/97


           Siddha Tradition: References
          *******************************

Tamil Nadu has a continuous tradition, at least from
sixth century (Tirumantiram of Tirumular), of employing
twilight speech. From 12th century onwards, Siddhars like
Civavaakkiyar embrace "street language" to attack establishment.
There is a separate school of medicine, called siddha medicine,
in south india. Srividya saktism of South India mainly employs
sanskrit texts.

1) K. Zvelebil, The Siddha quest for immortality,
Mandrake of Oxford, 1996, 190 p.

2) K. Zvelebil, The poets of the powers: magic, freedom, renewal.
1993, Integral Pub., California. (I edition: 1973, Rider)

3) R. Venkatraman, A history of the tamil siddha cult,
Madurai, 1990, 283 p.

4) T. N. Ganapathy, The philosophy of the tamil Siddhas,
N. Delhi, 1993, 232 p.

5) D. R. Brooks, Auspicious wisdom: the texts and tradition of Srividhya Sakta
tantrism in South India, 1992, SUNY

6)  D. R. Brooks, The secret of the three cities: an introduction
to Hindu Sakta tantrism, Univ. Chicago, 1990

7) D. G. White, The alchemical body: siddha tradition in medieval
india. Univ. Chicago press, 1996, 596 p.


Regards,
N. Ganesan







From vidya at singnet.com.sg  Sun Mar 30 02:23:10 1997
From: vidya at singnet.com.sg (Vidyasagar Govind)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 10:23:10 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029207.23782.7058110804788049649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The best chanting I have heard in tape form of the Geeta is that by Swami
Brahmananda.It is produced by the Central Chinmaya Mission Trust,Deenabandhu
Devastanam,CMH Road,Indiranagar,Bangalore 560038 (thats what is stated on
the tape cover).There is very little music in it,and the pronounciation is
very clear.I do not know if there is a CD version.

Vidya.




At 07:51 PM 3/29/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Honorable Pandits & Indologists,
>
>I just received the appended inquiry from a friend.  Might I impose 
>upon this august body to the extent of seeking info on audio-sloka 
>sources (specifically, Bhagavad Gita) for sake of my correspondent?
>
>You might wish to respond backchannel (to me and/or Kendra) -- unless 
>this might perhaps be felt to be of general (listproc) interest.
>
>thanks, d.i.
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date:          Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:24:48 -0500
>From:          Kendra Crossen Burroughs <ezad at worldnet.att.net>
>To:            "David R. Israel" <davidi at wizard.net>
>Subject:       query: Gita tapes
>
>Hi, David. Would you know where I could find out about audio tape
>recordings of the Bhagavad Gita? My sister (who studies Sanskrit) is
>looking for something with a real Indian pandit reading (or chanting)
>in Sanskrit, with no musical background. She already has tapes from
>the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi people and by someone named Houston, and a
>Folkways recording. Wants to know of others. Know where could I
>research this (on the internet)?
>
>






From davidi at wizard.net  Sun Mar 30 15:32:12 1997
From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 10:32:12 -0500
Subject: "Sandhyabasha" [sic] / & erratum
Message-ID: <161227029215.23782.1496635763817083200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

small erratum --

I wrote,
> ALSO, while on this Sanskrit poetics topic: . . . the lovely-looking
> translation of Sanskrit poetry verses, in which American poet W.S.
> Merwin was involved, entitled *The Peacock's Egg* (published by the
> erstwhile North Point Press). . .  Merwin collaborated w/ that
> psycholigist chap Massoud . . .

I guess the name is more like Masson (?) -- (my copy of said book isn't 
on hand right now).  From his annotations & such in *Peacock's Egg*, 
one got the impression of Masson as a serious Sanskritist (unlike 
poet Merwin, who simply worked -- as poets sometimes do -- from notes 
provided by his language-expert collaborator).  I do recall 
references to other works (or articles) Masson had published re: Skt. 
poetics or the like.  I guess I'm simply wondering or curious about 
Masson's general repute in the field -- as well, more particularly, 
abt. *The Peacock's Egg* (in terms of critical assessment).

Also, from N. Ganesan's presentation of Sakta reference works (for 
which, thanks), I begin to wonder if my recollection is amiss, re: a 
sense of what's intended by "twilight speech" -- but perhaps as a 
technical term in Skt. poetics, *Sandhya bhasa* was broad enough to 
encompass various (general & specific) sorts of irony? (including 
those practiced by the So.Indian Saktas, as referenced by Ganesan)?

regards, d.i.
 .
 .....
 ............
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\
   >    david   raphael   israel    <
   >>      washington  d.c.      <<
 |  davidi at wizard.net      (home)
 |  disrael at skgf.com      (office)
 =========================
 |   thy centuries follow each other
 |   perfecting a small wild flower
 |                                       (Tagore)
 //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\/////





From davidi at wizard.net  Sun Mar 30 16:06:21 1997
From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 11:06:21 -0500
Subject: Are violins endowed with religious significance?
Message-ID: <161227029217.23782.7775093284391917467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Backtracking to Adheesh Sathaye's post {Fri, 28 Mar 1997 03:50:51 
GMT} --

> Our basic observation was that with regards to traditionally
> 'Indian' instruments, such as the vI.nA, or the sitAr, in common
> practice there seems to be an explicit prohibition of contact with
> the foot. Resting the vI.nA on the thigh or calf would be
> acceptable, but it should not be allowed to touch one's foot. . . 
> However, when playing the violin, there is necessarily contact with 
> the foot. 

What you say may be true of vina, but surely is not true of sitar.  
In Ravi Shankar's autobiography (for instance), I recall photos & 
instructions explicitly directing that the instrument *should* be 
placed to rest on the sole (or sort of ankle?) of the upturned right 
foot (or that's how I recall it).  Of course, when speaking of 
Hindustani music traditions, this might naturally differ from So. 
Indian custom anyway.  One could go even more minutely into this:  
Shankar's sitar study was at the feet of the legendary Ustad 
Allauddin Khan.  I have an odd idea that in the rival sitar school of 
Ustad Vilayat Khan, they *don't* rest sitar on the foot.  (Vilayat 
tends to hold the sitar more in the rudra vina manner.)  Maybe I'm 
imagining things; this needs a proper Hindustani Rasika to clear it 
up.  But my point remains: what applies to vina clearly doesn't to a
sitar, foot-wise (at least in the Pt. Ravi Shankar tradition).

regards, d.i.

p.s.:  L. Shankar & L. Subramaniam both play violin resting on the 
shoulder (Western-style).  And to my taste, both play wonderfully -- 
though I realize there are other (poss. more traditional) styles that 
are also exceeding fine.  Both often do (esp. when playing proper 
Karnatic music) rest the scroll on the foot.  Other Karnatic 
violinists rest the body of the instrument at the chest-level, rather 
than on shoulder.  Trying to recall (comparatively) the practice of 
Hindustani violinists like V.G.Jog -- I believe Jog does favor the 
shoulder (but I'm not sure abt. the foot issue in the North; I think 
-- paradoxically here -- Jog doesn't use the foot (but not sure).  As 
for So.Indian-born, No.Indian-music-playing N. Rajam, that's another 
permutation.  (Regrettably, I've never seen her in concert.)
 .
 .....
 ............
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\
   >    david   raphael   israel    <
   >>      washington  d.c.      <<
 |  davidi at wizard.net      (home)
 |  disrael at skgf.com      (office)
 =========================
 |   thy centuries follow each other
 |   perfecting a small wild flower
 |                                       (Tagore)
 //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\/////





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Sun Mar 30 22:23:28 1997
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 14:23:28 -0800
Subject: Audio tapes of the Gita and other Skt texts
Message-ID: <161227029218.23782.13389250630400919546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The extent of Skt recordings available is not small. What is wanting is a
consolidated catalogue giving detailed and accurate information. The best
policy, therefore, is to buy whatever cassettes one can at a given
location, barring, of course, what one already has. The quality of
production varies but  is, on the whole, improving. In some rare cases, the
pronunciation comes close to being unacceptable in the sense that it would
mislead a beginner. Otherwise, if one bears in mind that there must always
have been regional variations in the pronunciation of Skt, the situation is
not  bad. In many cases, I have come across refreshingly original and
attractive music setting.

The largest single supplier of Skt cassettes that I have come across is
Sangeetha, The Master Recording Co., 97-C, III Street, Kumaran Colony,
Vadapalani, Chennai (formerly Madras) 600 026;  phone numbers (91+44)
483-8802 and 483-8822; fax number 483-6174. This company supplies general
as well as specialized catalogues (the two in the latter category that I
have seen are "Classical Devotional, Dance ..."  and "Sanskrit
Devotionals") of what it can supply.

Particularly good reciters, in addition to Swami Brahmaananda, whose name
was already mentioned by Vidyasagar Govind but whose cassettes seem to be
available only from the Chinmayananda Mission,  are:  P.B. Sreenivos,
Bombay Sisters, Sukumari Menon, M.S. Subbalaksmi, and Lata Mangeshkar. The
well-known south Indian musician Dr. M. Balamuralikrishna has sung on a
number of cassettes for Sangeetha. While his tunes are generally very good,
the pronunciation leaves much to be desired. The same is true of K.J.
Yesudas, P. Leela, and P. Aruna. (For someone who has studied the phonetics
of Skt systematically, there may be some 'impurity' even in the
pronunciation of Brahmananda, Sreenivos etc., but its extent is
negligible.)

While the Sangeetha recordings are almost entirely concerned with religious
compositions, the Dillii Sa.msk.rta Akaadamii ('Sa.msk.rta-bhavanam,'
Raajakiiya-maadhyamika-vidyaalaya.h, va.jiira-pura-graama.h, Phase 1,
A'soka-vihaara?, Dillii 110 052) has put out cassettes of Megha-duuta and
Saundarya-laharii sung by Sai.phur-Rahamaana (= Saifur Rehman) and others.

In the Pune-Mumbai area, Gita chapters 9, 12 and 15 sung by Lata Mangeshkar
are available.
The chapter 15 recording appears on the back of Lata's J;naane;svarii LP
(and now cassette?). For the cassette of chapters 9 and 12, the producer is
HMV, The Gramophone Company of India, 5 Old Court House St., Calcutta 700
001.

There is also said to be available a Gita recording (select verses with
Hindi narration) by Suhasini Mulgaonkar.

In addition, I have recently heard a highly innovative two-cassette set of
select Gita verses set to music by  Vanraj Bhatia, produced by Living Media
India Ltd., New Delhi. Its tunes are very good and original; technical side
of production is excellent; pronunciaiton, on the whole, is good, except
for the singers'  failure in consistently stressing short vowels followed
by conjunct consonants.

For someone at the beginning level, the five cassettes that come with my
_Sanskrit: an Easy Introduction to an Enchanting Language_ give much
practice in continuous reading. All the stories, essays and verses I use in
written form as exercises are read on the cassettes clearly and at
appropriate pace.







From wgw at dnai.com  Mon Mar 31 01:45:10 1997
From: wgw at dnai.com (wgw at dnai.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 17:45:10 -0800
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029223.23782.18184031813168501509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Guy Beck at Loyola is an expert on Indian musicology. I do not believe he is
a member of this conference, but his email is:
gbeck at beta.loyno.edu
He may be able to help.

Best,

Bill

>Hallo,
>does anyone have information about the introduction of European 
>musical instruments in India, particularly in the 19th cent. by 
>missionaries? 
>Any information would be welcome.
>Gabriele 


William G Wall, Ph.D.
Institute for Vaisnava Studies
Graduate Theological Union
PO Box 11216
Berkeley CA 94712
(510) 849-8280 (office)

email: wgw at dnai.com
Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se








From thompson at jlc.net  Mon Mar 31 00:03:02 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 20:03:02 -0400
Subject: "Sandhyabasha"
Message-ID: <161227029221.23782.11423607480356281462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm pretty sure that the source of Waldman's remarks is Eliade's "Yoga:
Immortality and Freedom", since it refers briefly to sandhyA-bhASA [in the
Kyoto-Harvard transcription system], and since all of the Beats were
reading Eliade [besides the book on yoga, there was a lot of interest in
his book on Shamanism].

You might check out the now classic study of S. Das Gupta [upon which
Eliade depended greatly], "Obscure Religious Cults" [3rd edit., 1969], who
by the way suggests that the alternation between sandhA- [i.e.,
"intentional" language] and sandhyA- [i.e., "twilight" language; cf.
"sandhi"] is not due to scribal error but to intentional double-sense.

There is a lot of more recent literature on this, which specialists might
want to recommend, but these two books seem to me to have the best chance
of being the ones that Waldman, Kerouac, et al., were familiar with.

Best wishes
George Thompson







From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Mon Mar 31 07:04:01 1997
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 23:04:01 -0800
Subject: Audio tapes of the Gita
Message-ID: <161227029224.23782.3952058896517309359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An addendum to my earlier message:

There is also a selection of Gita verses recited by Jitendra Abhisheki on a
Ravi Shankar record. I do not have any other details available, but I
recall vaguely that I heard the record at about the same time I heard Ravi
Shankar?s _Festival from India_ set of two (?) LPs  . Although Mr.
Abhisheki, a highly respected singer and music teacher, knows Sanskrit,
this particular production going under his name should not bought. It is
full of pronunciation errors one does not expect of Abhisheki.  I consider
it very likely that the recording editor, not knowing Skt,included in the
final master copy the trial recordings or erroneous parts Abhisheki advised
him to exclude.

After writing my earlier message, I have spent the last few hours checking
the quality of a Gita recording I had made on two tape reels for my
students. The tape reels master is dated 19 September 1971.  I had stored
it away because nowadays I hardly ever listen to tape reels. I was
pleasantly surprised to find that the quality of the recording is not at
all bad and that the master is still in good shape. I have transferred its
contents onto two good-quality ninety-minute cassettes in a slightly edited
form, thus creating a new master.

The contents consist of a clear, non-musical recitation of all the eighteen
chapters along with their colophons.  (I will not be able to give a musical
recitation even if I wanted to!).  The text followed is the one found in
S.K. Belvalkar?s critical edition.

I should be able to provide copies to interested persons after the end of
April. I estimate that the cost, including handling and postage, for the
two-cassette set would be US$15.00  (I will not be making the copies myself
for want of time. Also, I may need help in handling packing and posting).

Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of
British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2.







From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr  Sun Mar 30 22:30:39 1997
From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 00:30:39 +0200
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029220.23782.17848692525231504099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have a recording of Bhagavad GItA chanted by the three famous Mohapatra
sisters, in the same style as their numerous tapes of Vi.s.nu SaharanAmastotra
that is very clearly chanted text with a little musical background.
It comes as a set of 4 audio cassettes which I bought for 100 rupees in Puri.
It is copyrighted 1991 Gathani Records Company, 2 Temple Street, Calcutta
700 072.
G. Huet





From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca  Mon Mar 31 16:56:42 1997
From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 08:56:42 -0800
Subject: Audio tapes of the Gita
Message-ID: <161227029233.23782.13758249101556895617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 I would like to add another Gita tape to the list. It was 
by Professor Govinda Gopal Mukhopadhyaya and produced by HMV in
Calcutta in the late 80's. It contains the second chapter. It is
available in Calcutta music stores.

Mandakranta Bose
Department of Religious Studies
University of British Columbia
Vancouver B.C.
mbose at unixg.ubc.ca







From rmanring at indiana.edu  Mon Mar 31 14:06:28 1997
From: rmanring at indiana.edu (Rebecca Manring)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 09:06:28 -0500
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029229.23782.12786463240256281280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Music Today series produced in India and frequently advertised in 
such places as India Today has recently produced recordings of both 
Bhagavadgita and Kalidasa's Meghaduta.  I haven't heard either yet but 
these folks tend to do good work.

Rebecca Manring
India Studies
Indiana University


On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, Martin Gansten wrote:

> >Would you know where I could find out about audio tape
> >recordings of the Bhagavad Gita? My sister (who studies Sanskrit) is
> >looking for something with a real Indian pandit reading (or chanting)
> >in Sanskrit, with no musical background. 
> 
> I don't have any answers to David's query, I'm afraid, but would appreciate
> if those who do would care to share them with the list. Some of my Sanskrit
> students have expressed similar desires for audio tapes with Sanskrit
> reading -- not necessarily of the Gita, but in any case of some
> not-too-unusual text, so that one can follow with book in hand.
> 
> (Personally, I very much enjoy stotra chanting with or without musical
> background, so if someone knows a really good source for such recordings
> outside India -- perhaps even in Europe -- I'd be grateful for that
> information, too.)
> 
> Regards,
> Martin Gansten
> 
> 
> 





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Mon Mar 31 15:36:45 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 10:36:45 -0500
Subject: "Sandhyabasha"
Message-ID: <161227029231.23782.14088141974998791933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George wrote:
>>You might check out the now classic study of S. Das Gupta [upon which
>>Eliade depended greatly], "Obscure Religious Cults" [3rd edit., 1969], who
>>by the way suggests that the alternation between sandhA- [i.e.,
>>"intentional" language] and sandhyA- [i.e., "twilight" language; cf.
>>"sandhi"] is not due to scribal error but to intentional double-sense.

Check out Agehananda Bharati's "The Tantric tradition" too.

-Srini.





From tl4d at uva.pcmail.virginia.edu  Mon Mar 31 17:17:19 1997
From: tl4d at uva.pcmail.virginia.edu (Timothy Lubin)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 12:17:19 -0500
Subject: Vratyas
Message-ID: <161227029234.23782.10445577386721145849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to Dick Oliver's request for sources on the VrAtya-s, an old but
thorough study of textual sources is:

J. W. Hauer, _Der VrAtya: Untersuchungen ueber die nichtbrahmanische Religion
Altindiens_, vol. 1: Die VrAtya als nichtbrahmanische Kultgenossenschaften
arischer Herkunft (Stuttgart: Verlag von W. Kohlhammer, 1927).

As painstaking and valuable as this volume is, one should bear in mind the
cultural climate that helped shape the interests of that generation of German
indologists, i.e., the sense that they were recovering traces of the history
of their own glorious past.  That is not to say that this book preaches any
nefarious doctrine, but it is at least a product of, and perhaps contributed 
to, the spirit of the times.  (Note that a decade later, Hauer became a
member of the National Socialist Party and held the rank of
SS-Untersturmfuehrer (SS No. 107179)--for more on this period, see Sheldon
Pollock, "Deep Orientalism?  Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj" in
_Orientalism and the Postcolonial Predicament_.)

A more recent and intriguing study is:

Harry Falk, _Bruderschaft and Wuerfelspiel_ (Freiburg: Hedwig Falk, 1986),
ch. 1, "Bruderschaften in Indien."

Jan Heesterman, "VrAtya and Sacrifice," _Indo-Iranian Journal_ 6 (1962), pp.
1-37.

I can mention, but have not myself seen, the following dissertation:

Biswas, Samarendranath, _Die VrAtyas und die VrAtyastomas_ (diss. Berlin,
1955).


Timothy Lubin
Dept. of Religious Studies
Cocke Hall, University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22903
office phone: (804) 924-6314; fax: (804) 924-1467






From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu  Mon Mar 31 20:17:58 1997
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 12:17:58 -0800
Subject: Danielou
Message-ID: <161227029237.23782.4277937686171622557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:06 PM 3/31/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>With all due respect, Dominique, I don't think that Jacob's question is
>xenophobic! There are a lot of scholars out there, some of whom have
>produced more valuable work than others. I, too, sometimes ask colleagues if
>this or that scholar is worth my time, and I am interested in the personal
>qualities of the individual scholar. I may ask the same question about
>English, German or American scholars, or for that matter about scholars of
>any nationality. 

Also with due respect, I would like to point out that, as the biographical
notes reproduced by Dominique show (which don't mention that he put together
recordings for UNESCO), Danielou was mainly an expert on Indian music.

Best,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California, Berkeley






From thillaud at unice.fr  Mon Mar 31 11:15:02 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 13:15:02 +0200
Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play?
Message-ID: <161227029226.23782.17835986052919975280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 14:08 +0200 29/03/97, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>
>Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :)
>an honest assessment of A. Danielou as an Indologist?
>
>Thanks
>Jacob

such a crude xenophobic public query needs an answer:
from the fourth page cover of Alain DANIELOU, 'Le Polythe'isme Hindou',
Buchet/Chastel, Paris, 1975:

<< Alain DANIELOU est ne' a` Paris en 1907. Sa famille est connue dans le
monde des arts et de la politique et il s'inte'resse de`s sa jeunesse a` la
philosophie et a` la the'orie de la musique. Il poursuit en France et en
Ame'rique des e'tudes scientifiques et artistiques, puis se consacre a` la
musicologie. Alain Danie'lou voyage en Afrique du Nord, dans le
Moyen-Orient, en Chine, au Japon et en Indone'sie pour se fixer finalement
en Inde ou`, pendant pre`s de vingt ans, il e'tudie la musique et la
philosophie.
Il connait parfaitement le sanskrit, parle couramment le hindi et joue de
la vina comme un professionnel. En 1949, il est nomme' professeur charge'
de recherches a` l'Universite' de Be'nare`s, ou` il re'unit une collection
unique de manuscrits sur la the'orie musicale. En 1954, il prend la
direction, a` Madras, du Centre de Recherches et de la Bibliothe`que
d'Adyar - l'une des plus riches de l'Inde - dont il re'organise les
publications sanskrites et e'dite le Bulletin. Nomme' en 1956 a` l'Institut
Franc,ais d'Indologie de Pondiche'ry, il poursuit ses travaux en Indochine
puis en Afghanistan et en Iran, ou` il enregistre pour la premie`re fois
les plus anciens monuments de la musique traditionnelle.
Revenu en Europe, Alain Danie'lou est aujourd'hui le directeur de
l'Institut International d'E'tudes Comparatives de la Musique, cre'e' pour
lui a` Berlin et a` Venise. >>

Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :)
an honest assessment of J. Baltuch as an Indologist?

Thanks
Dominique (not an Indologist)










From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Mon Mar 31 12:54:47 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 14:54:47 +0200
Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play?
Message-ID: <161227029227.23782.15955053814432036164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:21 31.03.97 BST, you wrote:
>At 14:08 +0200 29/03/97, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>>
>>Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :)
>>an honest assessment of A. Danielou as an Indologist?
>>
>>Thanks
>>Jacob
>
>such a crude xenophobic public query needs an answer:

With all due respect, Dominique, I don't think that Jacob's question is
xenophobic! There are a lot of scholars out there, some of whom have
produced more valuable work than others. I, too, sometimes ask colleagues if
this or that scholar is worth my time, and I am interested in the personal
qualities of the individual scholar. I may ask the same question about
English, German or American scholars, or for that matter about scholars of
any nationality. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin 






From gjh8 at columbia.edu  Mon Mar 31 21:44:09 1997
From: gjh8 at columbia.edu (Gary J Hausman)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 16:44:09 -0500
Subject: "Sandhyabasha"
Message-ID: <161227029238.23782.11579892938468626250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With reference to "Twilight Language,' if you check out one of Ganesan's
references  - T.N. Ganapathy's _The Philosophy of the Tamil Siddhas_ - you
will find an entire chapter on this topic: Chapter 7 entitled 'The
Twilight Language of the Tamil Siddhas.' Actually, this was originally an
article by Ganapathy, and he constructed his book around it.

			Gary

On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, George Thompson wrote:

> I'm pretty sure that the source of Waldman's remarks is Eliade's "Yoga:
> Immortality and Freedom", since it refers briefly to sandhyA-bhASA [in the
> Kyoto-Harvard transcription system], and since all of the Beats were
> reading Eliade [besides the book on yoga, there was a lot of interest in
> his book on Shamanism].
> 
> You might check out the now classic study of S. Das Gupta [upon which
> Eliade depended greatly], "Obscure Religious Cults" [3rd edit., 1969], who
> by the way suggests that the alternation between sandhA- [i.e.,
> "intentional" language] and sandhyA- [i.e., "twilight" language; cf.
> "sandhi"] is not due to scribal error but to intentional double-sense.
> 
> There is a lot of more recent literature on this, which specialists might
> want to recommend, but these two books seem to me to have the best chance
> of being the ones that Waldman, Kerouac, et al., were familiar with.
> 
> Best wishes
> George Thompson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu  Mon Mar 31 23:46:32 1997
From: Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu (Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 16:46:32 -0700
Subject: Danielou
Message-ID: <161227029242.23782.17026664298338988809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The work Lars mentions is:

Alain Danielou.  The Complete Kama Sutra: The First Unabridged Modern
Translation of the Classic Indian Text by Vatsyayana, including the Jayamangala
by Yashodhara and extracts from the Hindi commentary by Devadatta Shastra.
Rochester, Vermont: Park Street Press, 1994.

He is also credited in this volume with translations from Tamil of 
Shilappadikaram and Manimekhalai.

Bruce M. Sullivan
Northern Arizona University






From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be  Mon Mar 31 14:58:40 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 16:58:40 +0200
Subject: A. Danielou (Re: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play?)
Message-ID: <161227029230.23782.3777683029294799784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominique Thillaud wrote:

>Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :)
>an honest assessment of J. Baltuch as an Indologist?

Here's a quick assessment: J. Baltuch is not an Indologist.

This is precisely *why* I can't judge by myself the
value of A. Danielou's scholarship and I asked Indologists
for help.

I am completely mystified as to what may have caused
Dominique's anger. Don't scholars review each other's work?










From srini at engin.umich.edu  Mon Mar 31 22:38:30 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 17:38:30 -0500
Subject: european musical instruments in India
Message-ID: <161227029241.23782.14568334743522080915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	Dear Mr. Pichumani,

	Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I confess that I generally find
	Carnatic music less interesting technically and musically than Hindustani,
	but my standpoint is that of a lifelong string player at a very competent
	level, and I am very fond of Indian music--a former student of Ali Akbar
	Khan. It is still considered good manners, I believe, to append honorifics
	to a well-respected and beloved person's name....or am I out of the loop?

	Max Langley

I apologize for the outburst... but I stick by the observations
in my post... what got my goat was your assessment of (S.)Indian 
violinistry - just in terms of the technique, sound, that you are 
looking for or are comfortable with, and in your easy approval of 
L.Subramaniam.

Imagine how pointless my criticism of jazz trumpeteers would 
be if I said that I find their tone very raspy... e.g. Miles'.  
Similarly, what use is spiccato, pizzicato, <x>-cato, if 
musicianship is sorely lacking ?

Now, as far as violin and Carnatic music are concerned, you 
should understand that it has been quite a checkered history 
thus far.  Leaving aside historical personalities like Baluswami
Dikshitar, Vadivelu, etc,  from the late 19th century onwards, 
we know of many great violinists each of whom have adopted a 
unique style in handling the instrument while displaying their 
musicianship.  A good many of them apparently used a "two-finger" 
technique exclusively, which was supposedly derived from vINa 
technique.  Others used the "four-finger" technique for passage 
work while resorting to two fingers for slow, ornamental lines.

There were/are violinists known for being - 
	
	technically superb and exquisitely musical like Dvaram 
	Venkataswami Naidu, MSGopalakrishnan,

	less virtuosic but superbly melodic, and tops in their 
	accompaniment skills like TiruvAlangADu Sundaresa Iyer, 
	Papa Venkataramiah, Rajamanikkam Pillai, T.N.Krishnan, 

	technically and musically brilliant like Lalgudi Jayaraman,

	experimenters and mavericks, nevertheless beloved to 
	their audiences, like Chowdiah (who built and played a 
	7 string violin), MarungApuri Gopalakrishna Iyer who 
	played with a horn sort of amplifier on his violin, and 
	Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan with his never ending bag of tricks.

	M.Chandrasekharan needs special mention... despite being 
	blind, he is a violinist of amazing skill... and his 
	musicianship is fantastic.

It is not my contention that they have always performed impeccably... 
suffice it to say that they have endeared themselves to general and 
critical audiences by their performances over the years.  

	It is still considered good manners, I believe, to append 
	honorifics to a well-respected and beloved person's name...
	or am I out of the loop?

Yes, it does apply still.  But Pandit Subramaniam sounds
somewhat awkward... in S.Indian musical idiom, it is just
S'rI L.Subramaniam or VidvAn L.Subramaniam.  

Regards,
-Srini.





From thillaud at unice.fr  Mon Mar 31 21:28:46 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 23:28:46 +0200
Subject: apologies
Message-ID: <161227029253.23782.571242400809013176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 17:05 +0200 31/03/97, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>Dominique Thillaud wrote:
>
>>Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :)
>>an honest assessment of J. Baltuch as an Indologist?
>
>Here's a quick assessment: J. Baltuch is not an Indologist.
>
>This is precisely *why* I can't judge by myself the
>value of A. Danielou's scholarship and I asked Indologists
>for help.
>
>I am completely mystified as to what may have caused
>Dominique's anger. Don't scholars review each other's work?

	Dear Jacob,
I apology sincerely, I believe I was still in the debate about
indogermanisch (a propos, what do you think about an 'eurindian' without
any hiatus) and the problems of nationalism.

	Dear other 'Indologists',
Perhaps I was mystified myself by the form of the query, not about a work
but about a man.
I don't know all the works of A. Danielou, I just use his 'Le Polytheisme
hindou' who is very helpful to me (perhaps more than Gonda's 'Les Religions
de l'Inde' or Renou's 'Inde classique') with a good index and giving many
God's names. He is a good theologist and explains well some difficult
notions.
May be his last works are not so good, I don't know. But if you judge him
from this works, the consequence is clear: as a new Solon, you can say
someone is an Indologist only after his death and only if you find *all*
his work scholarly acceptable. That's too much, I'm really afraid, I'll
never be an Indologist by this way!

	Dear David,
What against hipness, beat generation or like ? Are you so young ? I'm 55
and I like still music, women and sometime a good whiskey or a bit of
'cannabis indica'. Indologist, no ? ;-)
And I have a good feeling with Hermes, Ganesha, Aphrodite and Sarasvati.
And I like Danielou's family (one was roman church's cardinal, Bunuel's
fan, good and fine speaker and gave his soul to God in a worehouse).
And I'm a scholar (and a scientific one). Strange ?

Regards to all,
	Dominique (O->, a man, nobody's perfect)








From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Mon Mar 31 21:50:09 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 23:50:09 +0200
Subject: Danielou
Message-ID: <161227029239.23782.13005949036661029100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>Also with due respect, I would like to point out that, as the biographical
>notes reproduced by Dominique show (which don't mention that he put together
>recordings for UNESCO), Danielou was mainly an expert on Indian music.
>
 I seem to remember that Danielou also produced a translation of the Kama
Sutra, so he did not only work with music.

Lars Martin Fosse






From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz  Mon Mar 31 19:09:19 1997
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 07:09:19 +1200
Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes
Message-ID: <161227029235.23782.8023916930982412081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The Music Today series produced in India and frequently advertised in 
>such places as India Today has recently produced recordings of both 
>Bhagavadgita and Kalidasa's Meghaduta.  I haven't heard either yet but 
>these folks tend to do good work.

Quite the contrary in my experience.  I had bought audio cassettes
on two occasions on two different trips to India (more than 50 or
so of them) and am sad to say that of the 50, perhaps  3 or 4 only
were of acceptable quality.  They only tend to do a good job of
advertising and packaging their tapes attractively, with an informative
blurb within each one.  Two friends of mine to whom I had initially
wrongly recommended this company reported similar experiences with
Music Today.  Sangeeta or HMV seem to do an immensely better job
and are also value for money.

- &