From aditya at smart1.net  Sun Jun  1 14:59:03 1997
From: aditya at smart1.net (Ruicha Mishra)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 09:59:03 -0500
Subject: yojana?
Message-ID: <161227030673.23782.14894705001121393858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



----------
> From: Jacob Baltuch <jacob.baltuch at euronet.be>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: yojana?
> Date: Sunday, June 01, 1997 8:00 AM
> 
> Does anyone know what a yojana is worth about
> and what the etymology of the word is?
> 
> It is a measure of distance used in Ashoka's 13th
> rock edict.

As I remember, it is equal to about 4 miles





From tatelman at total.net  Sun Jun  1 15:24:15 1997
From: tatelman at total.net (tatelman at total.net)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 10:24:15 -0500
Subject: yojana?
Message-ID: <161227030671.23782.15029675441095063816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>Does anyone know what a yojana is worth about
>and what the etymology of the word is?

>It is a measure of distance used in Ashoka's 13th
>rock edict.

See A.L. Basham, _The Wonder That Was India_ (London: Sidgewick & Jackson,
1967), pp. 503-504 and D.D. Kosambi, _The Culture and Civilization of
Ancient India in Historical Outline_ (Delhi: Vikas Publications, 1970), p.
161.

Basham suggests the yojana used in the A'sokan period was equivalent to 4.5
miles and that in later epochs it was equivalent to 9 miles. From my own
reading this latter figure at least is confirmed by the Dhammapada
Commentary and the Divyaavadaana.

Sorry not to have more up-to-date references.

Hope this helps.

Joel.











From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Sun Jun  1 11:52:56 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 13:52:56 +0200
Subject: yojana?
Message-ID: <161227030668.23782.14047108845619483072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone know what a yojana is worth about
and what the etymology of the word is?

It is a measure of distance used in Ashoka's 13th
rock edict.

It's not an extremely vital piece of information
for me, so please don't go to any great trouble
to look it up, but if you happen to know, I'd be
grateful.









From thillaud at unice.fr  Sun Jun  1 13:59:10 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 15:59:10 +0200
Subject: yojana?
Message-ID: <161227030670.23782.6850779807358065976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 14:00 +0200 1/06/97, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>Does anyone know what a yojana is worth about
>and what the etymology of the word is?
>
>It is a measure of distance used in Ashoka's 13th
>rock edict.
>
>It's not an extremely vital piece of information
>for me, so please don't go to any great trouble
>to look it up, but if you happen to know, I'd be
>grateful.

	MMW indique yo'jana comme v?dique aux deux sens de joignant,
harnachant et de mesure de distance (valeur floue) correspondant ? un
trajet sans d?teler.
Il s'agit donc vraisemblablement de la distance entre deux relais, ce qui
explique qu'elle doive sans doute d?pendre de la nature du terrain
(existence de points d'eau ?). Les deux sens sont ?videmment li?s et le
premier d?pend clairemant de yuj- avec le suffixe -ana- de noms d'action
comme bho'jana < bhuj-

	Amicalement,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu  Sun Jun  1 17:23:47 1997
From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 17:23:47 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Soc. H-C Studies Annual Meeting
Message-ID: <161227030678.23782.2624961197403510647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For those who may be interested, below is the program of the 1997 
Annual Meeting of the Society for Hindu-Christian Studies.

Lance Nelson
--------------------------------------------

Society for Hindu-Christian Studies 1997 Annual Meeting
San Francisco, California, November 21-22, 1997

The Society's Annual Meeting will be held in conjunction with the
Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Religion/Society of Biblical
Literature, which meets November 22-25.  Our sessions will be listed
in the Additional Meetings section of the AAR/SBL Annual Meeting
Program.  For Information regarding hotels, etc., call: 404/727-2343,
e-mail: meetings_management at emory.edu, or browse to:
http://scholar.cc.emory.edu/scripts/AAR/annmtg.html

PROGRAM

Friday,  November 21

7:00pm-10:00pm	[Location TBA; consult the AAR/SBL Annual Meeting
Program]

7:00-8:45  Presentation and Discussion

   John B. Carman, Harvard University

   Extending the Christian Doctrine of the Logos to Interpret Hindu
   Bhakti

   William Cenkner, The Catholic University of America, Respondent
   Vasudha Narayanan, University of Florida, Respondent
   Lance E. Nelson, University of San Diego, Moderator

8:45  Social Hour

For copies of Prof. Carman's paper (after Oct. 1), send US $3.00 by
check payable to Kay Jordan, Philosophy & Religious Studies, Radford
University, Radford, VA 24142-69438, tel: (540) 831-5899, e- mail:
kjordan at runet.edu.  Web site: http://www.acusd.edu/theo/hcs-l.
------------------------------------
Saturday, November 22

9:00am-11:30am	[Location TBA; consult the AAR/SBL Annual Meeting
Program]

9:00-10:30 Panel Discussion of Francis X. Clooney's _Seeing
   Through the Texts: Doing Theology among the Srivaisnavas
   of South India_, recipient of   the Society's "Best Book in
   Hindu-Christian Studies, 1994-96" Award

   Vasudha Narayanan, University of Florida, Presentation of Award and
   Moderator

   Comments:

   Harold Coward, University of Victoria
   T. S. Rukmani, Concordia University
   M. Thomas Thangaraj, Emory University

   Response: Francis X. Clooney, S. J., Boston College

10:30-11:30	Annual Business Meeting

Both parts of the meeting are open to all who may be interested.

For further information, contact Kay Jordan, tel: (540) 831-5899;
e-mail: kjordan at runet.edu.  Or visit the Society's web site at
http://www.acusd.edu/theo/hcs-l.

------------------------
Lance Nelson
Religious Studies
University of San Diego
lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu





From jehms at globalxs.nl  Sun Jun  1 21:06:04 1997
From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 22:06:04 +0100
Subject: Science and beliefs (was: the gods)
Message-ID: <161227030674.23782.14403696988940419561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Op 30-mei-97 schreef Dominique.Thillaud:


>or perhaps have you just the intention to insult me.

certainly not, what gave you the idea? what reason would i have? i respect you
as one of the many 7-bit intelligent voices that lighten up my screen!

>>do you have to be a dog in order to know what it's like to
>>be a dog? do you need to be a god in order to know what it is to be a god?
>are
>>you the hero of your own biography?

>Sure I do! Don't try to ridicule a mirror.

it could be that the mirror ridicules us!
maybe you would like to reconsider you're point of view if i inform you
that those very words are a quote of M.M. Bakhtim. you'll find the quote in
'art and answereability' pp 112 (M.Holquist ed. - Texas U.P. Austin 1990), but
also Sartre in his 'Transcendence de l'ego' gave some reasons to take the
unity of the subject not longer for granted, not to mention the
postmodernists!


erik hoogcarspel






From jehms at globalxs.nl  Sun Jun  1 21:50:33 1997
From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 22:50:33 +0100
Subject: the gods
Message-ID: <161227030676.23782.9227430806185333977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Op 30-mei-97 schreef Vidyasankar Sundaresan:


thank you for your elaborate answere
 you made your point very clear except on one issue: the different sorts of
science.
i don't think reductionism, according to which one science explains the
axiomas, thoerical terms and basic fenomena of another, is a tenable point of
view. on the contrary: i agree with Peter Winch ('The idea of a Social Science
- Routl & Kegan Paul 1958): there's a fundamental difference between
object-sciences and social-sciences. i think there is an equally fundamental
difference between those two and linguistic sciences like philogy and
semiology. 

i had antropology, philology and semiology in mind when i defended the right
of science to investigate religious phenomena and texsts.

>In one sense, science is treading on areas traditionally considered the
>domain of religion. This is because science is also starting to pose
>the ultimate questions. The great number of books drawing parallels
>between quantum physics and "Oriental mysticism" (whatever that means) are
>a testimony to that. And in almost a century of quantum mechanics, no
>serious physicist yet claims to know all the answers. 

i would reckon those texts as scientific ones. even Capra's view on physics
have been severly criticised by experts, let alone his hopelessly romantic
view on oriental mysticism
 


>That could probably be because physicists and educators deliberately
>decide not to worry about philosophical implications of quantum mechanics,
>or else one could never get any quantum physics done. But if you look at
>the history of quantum mechanics, famous problems and paradoxes in the
>theory were seen as things worthy of investigation, precisely because
>scientists like Bohr, Heisenberg and Einstein had their own
>*philosophical* attitudes about the implications of quamtum physics.
>Haven't you heard of Einstein's quip, "God does not play dice" and the
>retort, "Don't tell God what to do"? Things like determinism, causality,
>free will and choice played a huge role in the early controversy between
>Einstein and the others. 

of course, but inthis case Einstein's religious feelings were disturbed by
implications of scientific developments. i wouls say this is very human, but
not very philosophical. if he had read Nietzsche he would not be that
surprised.
>
>> i've heard even of ironic theologians who have lost
>> all concern about the existence of god.

>They are in the good company of the Indian pUrva mImA.msakas!

it's a pity most theologians prefer Barth to BhartRhari

erik hoogcarspel








From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl  Mon Jun  2 01:22:08 1997
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 00:22:08 -0100
Subject: Nambudris etc.
Message-ID: <161227030689.23782.17306483195397124455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Replies to msg 31 May 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk

 vs> . I was under the impression that the ottillAta
 vs> nambUdiris were supposed to be a result of a curse that
 vs> SankarAcArya is supposed to have laid on some relatives
 vs> of his, barring them from Vedic study. Is this correct?

I have heard a similar explanation given for why the Muuguuru Karnaa.taka
brahmins in Karnataka are considered a.d.dapankti braahma.naru, i.e. why they
are considered not "full" brahmins and are not allowed to sit in the same
pankti (line) with other brahmins for their meals on public auspicious
occasions: according to the story, they had objected to Sankara as a sannyaasin
performing funeral rites for his mother, and Sankara had cursed them by giving
them this inferior status within the brahmin var.na.

Perhaps we have here a recurring motif in explanations of relative superiority
/ inferiority among brahmin groups?

Robert Zydenbos
zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl






From kharimot at sas.upenn.edu  Sun Jun  1 19:32:52 1997
From: kharimot at sas.upenn.edu (kharimot at sas.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 00:32:52 +0500
Subject: INDOLOGY digest 686
Message-ID: <161227030681.23782.14630811192679925936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to Edgar Thurston, _Castes and Tribes of Southern India_,
Vol. 5, Madras 1909 , p. 154:

  The Keralolpatti relates the story of the exclusion of the
  Panniyuur Braahmans from the Vedas.  There were in the beginning two
  religious factions among the Nambuutiris, the Vaishnavas or
  worshippers of Vishunu in his icncarnation as a boar, and the
  Saivas; the former residing in Panniyuur (boar village), and the
  latter in Chovuur (Siva's village). The Siavas gained the upper
  hand, and, completely dominating the others, excluded them
  altogether from the Vedas.  So now the Nambuutirs of Panniyuur are
  said to be prohibited from studynig the Vedas.  It is said, however,
  that this prohibition is not observed, and that, as a matter of
  fact, the Panniyuur Nambuutiris perform all the Vedic ceremonies.

p.163, quoting from Cochin Census Report 1901:

  There are Aadhyans among this class (The issue is already Adhyans, a
  class among Nambudris.) also.  Having received weapons from Parasu
  Raama and practiced the art of war, the Sastrangakars are treated as
  somewhat degraded Braahmans.  They are prohibited from studying the
  Vedas, but are entitled to muthalmura, that is, reading the Vedas,
  or hearing them recited once.  Having had to devote their time and
  energy to the practice of the art of war, they could not possibly
  spend their time in the study of the Vedas.  the Vaidyans or
  physicians, known as Muussads, are to study the medical science, and
  to practice the same.  As the profession of a doctor necessitates
  the performance of surgical operations entailing the shedding of
  blood, the Muussads are also considered as slightly degraded.  They
  too are entitled only to muthalmura.  Of these, there are eight
  families, known as Ashta Vaidyans.  The Graamanis are alleged to
  have suffered degradation by reason of their having, at the command
  of Parasu Raama, undertaken the onerous duties of protecting the
  Braahman villages, and having had, as Rakshapurushas or protectors,
  to discharge the functions assigned to Kshatriyas.  Ooril Parisha
  Muussads are supposed to have undergone degradation on acocunt of
  their having accepted from Parasu Raama the accumulated sin of
  having killed the warrior Kshatriyas thrice seven times, along with
  immense gifts in the shape of landed estates.  They are not allowed
  to read the Vedas evne one.

Also, he continues to cite certain Subramani Aiyar on
``five-sub-divisions among the Nambuutiris'', in which a division
called Jaatimatras is mentioned.  They are said to be physicians,
slodiers, or landed kings who originally had no time to study Vedas
and came to be considered non-worthy of studying them because of their
profession.

Overall, the social structure of Nambudris seems to be, and have been
complicated.  Even in a single book, the divisions and sub-divisions
are not consistent.  Isn't this why anthropologists are interested in
them? :-)

-- Kengo







From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu  Mon Jun  2 16:12:22 1997
From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 09:12:22 -0700
Subject: re indology (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227030686.23782.17795318641590321398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Members,

Please find below requests for address information from a colleague who is
having trouble posting the requests to the List herself. Please reply to
her email address: 75301.3722 at Compuserve.COM


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 01 Jun 97 17:33:42 EDT
From: "Robert P. Sikora" <75301.3722 at CompuServe.COM>
To: Peter Claus <pclaus at csuhayward.edu>
Subject: re indology

Peter, I had hoped to be able to send out some requests for information over
indology but I can't get any help from them regarding how to do it and the info
I have must be out of date.  

So, could you send a few messages for me and just
ask them to reply to my compuserve address.  I wanted to inquire if there are
e-mail addresses for 
1)  Sangeet Natak Akademi in Delhi
2)  Sangeet Natak Akademi in Hyderbad
3)  Dr. Kapila Vatsyanan, Indira Gandi National Center for the Arts.

Also, I wanted to inquire if anyone on indology was knowledgeable about the
Yaksha and Nagavasi communities of Andhra.

I had a few other questions, too about some words but those can wait?  Can you
send these requests for me or tell me how to send them?  I am a subscriber and
get the daily dose of messages.  I just don't seem to know the right commands to
send to get any answers.      

Martha Ashton







From masefiel at zip.com.au  Mon Jun  2 02:47:09 1997
From: masefiel at zip.com.au (Peter Masefield)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 12:47:09 +1000
Subject: yojana?
Message-ID: <161227030679.23782.12035579536276853641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One yojana is equivalent to 4 gaavutas.  Some maintain that the gaavuta 
is strictly speaking the distance that can be covered by a team of oxen, 
the yojana (contra PED) that which can be covered by a team of 
horses--see my Vimana Stories, Pali Text Society, 1989, p 356 n 79.

Peter Masefield.





From bpj at netg.se  Mon Jun  2 13:05:01 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 15:05:01 +0200
Subject: the gods
Message-ID: <161227030683.23782.17557768635215350311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 22:37 1.6.1997, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote:

>i don't think reductionism, according to which one science explains the
>axiomas, thoerical terms and basic fenomena of another, is a tenable point of
>view. on the contrary: i agree with Peter Winch ('The idea of a Social Science
>- Routl & Kegan Paul 1958): there's a fundamental difference between
>object-sciences and social-sciences. i think there is an equally fundamental
>difference between those two and linguistic sciences like philogy and
>semiology.
>
>i had antropology, philology and semiology in mind when i defended the right
>of science to investigate religious phenomena and texsts.
>

Just for the record this expresses my view adequately too. Thanks for this
great formulation, Erik!

Philip







From d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de  Mon Jun  2 23:11:01 1997
From: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Thomas Lehmann)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 16:11:01 -0700
Subject: Tamil self-tuition course
Message-ID: <161227030685.23782.15546822354861989735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Martin Gansten wrote:
> 
> Having wanted to learn Tamil for quite some time, I now see that desire
> gradually turning into a necessity. Unfortunately, though, the universities
> in my vicinity do not offer any such courses. I have therefore begun to look
> around for some self-tuition packages (including audio cassettes or CDs for
> learning pronunciation) to get me started. Could the Tamil scholars on this
> list recommend any such particular package, or conversely, are there any
> that you would advise against buying? All suggestions are most welcome.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Martin Gansten
> mgansten at sbbs.se

See the following URLs:

http://theory.tifr.res.in/bombay/history/people/language/tamil.html
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~plc/tamilweb/tamil.html
gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia/Teaching/ILM

_____________________________________________________________________
Thomas Lehmann,                   e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
South Asia Institute              phone:  0049-6221-548908
of the University of Heidelberg,  fax:    0049-6221-544998
Dept. of Indology,
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330,
69120 Heidelberg,
Germany
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From thompson at jlc.net  Mon Jun  2 23:51:25 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 19:51:25 -0400
Subject: the gods
Message-ID: <161227030688.23782.13993328827972522355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to Howard Resnick's recent post:

I have an abiding interest in all kinds of discourse, and so I do see that
there is value in classifying discourse-genres as you are trying to do. I
won't question your motivation; instead I'll talk about my own. Greg
Downing and I were engaged in making a distinction between literal and
metaphorical assertions about a god named Agni. Now what is it that
motivates such a distinction?

As far as I'm concerned, this distinction was *not* intended to cast any
doubts, or convictions either way, about this god's existence [the
existence or non-existence of Agni might be of interest to theologians or
mythologists, but I am *not* one of those]. When I question whether a
particular assertion is literal or metaphorical what concerns me is the
nature of the utterance, the intentions of the utterer, the interpretation
of the audience, the role of the utterance in the given hymn, etc. These
are questions which any philologist or linguist might [and should] ask
about any given speech act or text.

In Vedic many statements are made about Agni, of course, both as god and as
terrestrial element. In my view it is often very difficult to tell which is
being referred to. In fact, sometimes the name 'Agni' seems to refer
instead to some abstract, or perhaps intangible, life-force found, e.g., in
plants, in the waters, as well as in the hearts of inspired poets.

Now in the very first line of the very first hymn of the RV, Agni is called
puro'hita. I think that it is reasonable to ask whether this is a literal
or a metaphorical assertion. Does the stanza suggest that Agni is a priest?
If so, are we to understand that Agni is a priest in the same sense that
Madhuchandas VaizvAmitra [the hymn's presumed author] is a priest?  Now if
I suggest that the stmt "Agni is a puo'hita" is metaphorical, what I mean
is that the qualities that are attributed to human priests, like MV, are
transferred to Agni the god ['metaphor' literally = 'transfer']. [Of
course, there is the other possibility: that the transfer goes in the other
direction, from the divine to the human: in which case the humans are
trying to behave like gods -- I don't want to get into that interesting
issue, though]. If on the other hand I suggest that this stmt is literal
what I mean is that there isn't any transfer of qualities from one realm
[the human] to the other [the divine]. Of course there is also the
underlying problem of understanding the relationship [bandhu] between the
celestial figure Agni and the terrestrial fire [agni']. Etc.

RV 1.1 might appear to some to be a simple, straight-forward, conventional
hymn. I don't think it is, and I don't think we understand it. Just to
show that this is not just some idiosnycratic view of mine, one solitary
Vedicist in a vast sea of indifference, let me cite:

Hans Schmeja: _Interpretationen aus dem Rigveda_ [Innsbruecker Beitraege
zur Kulturwissenschaft, Sonderheft 61, 1987].

The first chapter of this extended article treats RV 1.1, comparing the
translations of Geldner, Mylius, and Thieme. The variations are significant
enough, and Schmeja's discussion cogent enough, to persuade me that we are
not ready yet for an algebra of Vedic discourse. In fact, I think that we
are still at the level of, say, counting.

So you see, we are operating at *very different levels*, which is why we
haven't succeeded in communicating very well. But perhaps we can change
that.

best wishes,
George








From u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE  Tue Jun  3 11:14:20 1997
From: u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 13:14:20 +0200
Subject: Query: Tamil "ATalpaRRu"-Texts
Message-ID: <161227030691.23782.10902959690284838620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

could anybody help me out with bibliographical data about literature 
(original texts, articles, pamphlets, ...) of or about Tamil "ATalpaRRu" 
(or: "ATaRpaRRu") - Literature? 

With many thanks, ULRIKE





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Tue Jun  3 12:37:39 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 13:37:39 +0100
Subject: Nyayabhashya encoding (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227030694.23782.10810674809931269414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks indeed to Dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru who has kindly donated
the first 25 Nyayasutras together with bhasya to the INDOLOGY Virtual
e-text Archive.  The files are available as of now under the name
  nyayabhasya.zip
  nyayabhasya.readme

The zip file contains the text and TrueType fonts for display.

Dmitry says that more of the text is coming in the near future.

All the best, and thank you again, Dmitry, for your generosity in making 
this material available.

Dominik

NB whether or not the files contain any explicit statement, they ARE
copyrighted and the creator of the files owns the copyright on them. 
Dmitry has given explicit permission for these files to be made publicly
available and to be copied free of charge for scholarly purposes.  Anyone
wishing to use these files for non-scholarly purposes, or to include them
in any product for sale must contact Dmitry and negotiate special
copyright permission for such use. 

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Tue Jun  3 19:28:48 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 15:28:48 -0400
Subject: INDOLOGY digest 686
Message-ID: <161227030699.23782.15669751712486162412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	
Vidya >> I was under the impression that the ottillAta nambUdiris 
Vidya >> were supposed to be a result of a curse that SankarAcArya 
Vidya >> is supposed to have laid on some relatives of his, barring 
Vidya >> them from Vedic study. Is this correct? 

It may be S'ankara-Digvijaya lore, but S'ankarAcArya doesn't 
seem to figure at all in this issue although he may have cursed
his relatives as above.

I very much doubt if S'ankarAcArya himself had any standing 
that accorded him such legislative power, among the highly 
orthodox and ritualistic Nambudiris of that time... also, it
is unclear how the medieval Nambudiris viewed him or if they 
had any special opinion at all. In the modern era, Nambudiris 
have tended to be more receptive of S'ankarAcArya embracing
him as one of their own.

According to the reference cited below (Staal too corrects 
his earlier statement in Nambudiri Veda Recitation, 1961,  
in Agni vol II) the term "OttillAttavar" itself is apparently 
used only for the SAstrAngakkars aka S'Astra-SAstra or cAttira 
Nambudiris, who traditionally were performers of yAtrAkaLi... 
as part of this performance, there is sword play.  

Kengo >> said to be prohibited from studynig the Vedas.  It is said, however,
Kengo >> that this prohibition is not observed, and that, as a matter of
Kengo >> fact, the Panniyuur Nambuutiris perform all the Vedic ceremonies.

Due to their legendary conflict with the cOvvaram Nambudiris,
they were "degraded"... but this essentially meant that they
couldn't perform only the elaborate s'rauta rituals for which 
they needed material help from others like the Raja of Kollengode...
who customarily provided deer-skin and "soma" plants to the 
Vedic sacrificers of that region.  Staal's Agni vol II mentions 
some details from the late 19th or early 20th century when
they tried to petition the Raja for materials needed to perform 
a yAga and were unsuccessful due to the continuing influence
of their arch-enemies in such matters.

Kengo >> Also, he continues to cite certain Subramani Aiyar on

Possibly K.V.Subramania Iyer, editor of Travancore Archaeological
Series.
 
Kengo >> ``five-sub-divisions among the Nambuutiris'', in which 
Kengo >> a division called Jaatimatras is mentioned.  They are 
Kengo >> said to be physicians, slodiers, or landed kings who 
Kengo >> originally had no time to study Vedas and came to be 
Kengo >> considered non-worthy of studying them because of their
Kengo >> profession.

According to the book "Aryans in South India" (Inter-India 
Publications, New Delhi, 1992) by the Kerala historian 
P.P.Narayanan Nambudiri, the aShTavaidyans (physicians of 
eight families) and cAttira Nambudiris are classified into 
jAtimatreyanmar.

Kengo >> Overall, the social structure of Nambudris seems to be, 
Kengo >> and have been complicated.  

You bet... the book above mentions even a small group of people 
called the Payyannur Nambudiris who follow marumakkatAyam or 
matriliny.  He discusses their situation in some detail and
ends with the conclusion that "they follow the NAyar 
marumakkatAyam with the Nambudiri ritualism in relgion".
Their adoption of matriliny was at the command of Paras'urAma 
to the Nambudiris - reported in KeralOlpatti - all other 
Nambudiris refused it in an act of outright disobedience !  

Despite the persistent legends about Paras'urAma and Kerala, 
the Nambudiris don't seem to have any special use for him.

-Srini.





From KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl  Tue Jun  3 17:27:24 1997
From: KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 18:27:24 +0100
Subject: H-ASIA: Q. Peacock throne and huma bird
Message-ID: <161227030695.23782.4460262802559491333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Leiden, June 3, 1997






From KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl  Tue Jun  3 17:40:21 1997
From: KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 18:40:21 +0100
Subject: H-ASIA: Q. Peacock throne and huma bird
Message-ID: <161227030696.23782.17784033663584444697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Leiden, June 3, 1997

I have seen and studied many images of Garuda (and the more anonymous species 
of garudas not specifically associated with Vasudeva-Visnu and Krsna) and 
the myths related with these birds. 

I have not come across references to the idea that Garuda 'never 
alights'. In fact, there are many tales in which Garuda (and garudas) are 
coming down to earth. 

Most images of Garuda (and of garudas, for that matter) show the bird's legs 
and feet. But there are (more rare) images in which he/it is shown as actually 
flying, while carrying Visnu or Krsna.

A beautiful flying Garuda (carrying Krsna) in terracotta once adorned 
a Gupta period brick temple, perhaps at Bhitargaon (U.P.). 
This panel is now in the Brooklyn Museum (illustrated by a.o. Pratap Pal in 
'The ideal image' (1978), fig. 28.


Ellen Raven
Instituut Kern
Leiden University
e-mail: kernlibrvn at rullet.LeidenUniv.NL  





From Hrid at aol.com  Tue Jun  3 22:52:40 1997
From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 18:52:40 -0400
Subject: the gods
Message-ID: <161227030701.23782.742376270402764527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


In a message dated 6/3/97 7:00:09 AM, you wrote:

>So you see, we are operating at *very different levels*, which is why we
>haven't succeeded in communicating very well. But perhaps we can change
>that.
	Thank you very much George for your learned comments which I found quite
helpful. The distinctions you raised are significant.
Best wishes,
Howard





From KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl  Tue Jun  3 18:43:22 1997
From: KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 19:43:22 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <161227030698.23782.14038028158154107441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subj:	works by/for D.D. Kosambi

Leiden, June 3, 1997

Apparently I do no longer have the query after works by/for D.D. Kosambi in 
my mail archive for easy reference here. 

All four books sought by 'Sreenivas' are present in Leiden collections, 
either at the University Library, or at the Kern Institute Library. 

The only book missing is the one in the microfiche catalogue 
(the memorial volume of 1970).

If interlibrary loan amongst German libraries does not help, then an 
international loan may help out. For more enquiries (also regarding 
interlibrary loans of books from the Kern Institute collection), please 
contact:

University Library, Leiden University
Department of Interlibrary Loans
POB 9501
2300 RA Leiden
The Netherlands

The University Library collection can be 'visited' on line as well.
For more information: Head of Loans, Drs J. Damen, tel. 31-71-5272808.
	

Ellen Raven

IIAS, ABIA Bibliography Project
(ABIA South and Southeast Asian Art and Archaeology Index)

e-mail: kernlibrvn at rullet.LeidenUniv.NL (indology)
e-mail: abiaraven at rullet.LeidenUniv.NL (ABIA bibliography Project)





From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Wed Jun  4 06:22:01 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 01:22:01 -0500
Subject: Request for Rg praatishaakhya suutra
Message-ID: <161227030702.23782.6501745777764628940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am trying to grapple with some matters of Vedic accent and am in
something of an urgent need for RPr. 1.60-1.68-- I know that 1.64 reads:

tat trimaatre shaakalaa darshayanty aacaaryashaastraaparilopahetavaH
(cf. RV 10.146.1: vindatii3M)

I've been unsuccessful finding the text on short notice here 'midst our
cornfields, and would deeply appreciate if someone could simply type these
few lines into ITRANS for me via e-mail.  If finger soreness and carpal
tunnel be at issue, I could survive with only 1.62-1.67.  I'm on something
of a deadline--so any speed will elicit the best return-favor netiquette I
can manage.

TYIA
jrg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.






From deepak at ksu.edu  Wed Jun  4 13:36:41 1997
From: deepak at ksu.edu (Deepak)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 08:36:41 -0500
Subject: Yogavasistha
Message-ID: <161227030707.23782.1797997676240748284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi everybody,

I  looking for an authoritative
reference on Yogavasistha. As I have come
to know that it is unique in its explication of 
concept of "akasa"  and breaks down the
concept of space into "cidakasa", "cittakasa"
 and "bhutakasa". Any suggestions?

Thanks

Deepak
              
| d   e   e   p   a   k         g   u   p   t   a |
| deepak at ksu.edu  || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak |
 









From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de  Wed Jun  4 10:11:26 1997
From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 11:11:26 +0100
Subject: experiences with d.k.agencies
Message-ID: <161227030704.23782.1545200665822533618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As a special collection of South Asian material we naturally have 
several suppliers. Among the best worldwide I can name DK Agencies. 
They are very efficient, still friendly and with open ears to 
problems and special wishes. As a firm they are open to new 
developments to which they react in a most professional way. You can 
search and order new books online now via their homepage:
http://www.dkagencies.com/page2.htm

Gabriele
----------------------------------------------------------
Dr Gabriele Zeller
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
72016 Tuebingen
Tel:+49-7071-2974030
Fax:+49-7071-293123

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub
----------------------------------------------------------





From phijag at zelacom.com  Wed Jun  4 15:34:20 1997
From: phijag at zelacom.com (phijag at zelacom.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 11:34:20 -0400
Subject: Yogavasistha
Message-ID: <161227030710.23782.14887110109316481912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Deepak,
See III.97. 
In Swami Venkatesananda's Vasistha's  Yoga (SUNY Press), the index provides
all the references.
John

>Hi everybody,
>
>I  looking for an authoritative
>reference on Yogavasistha. As I have come
>to know that it is unique in its explication of 
>concept of "akasa"  and breaks down the
>concept of space into "cidakasa", "cittakasa"
> and "bhutakasa". Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks
>
>Deepak
>              
>| d   e   e   p   a   k         g   u   p   t   a |
>| deepak at ksu.edu  || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak |
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>






From pesch at indoger.unizh.ch  Wed Jun  4 09:59:04 1997
From: pesch at indoger.unizh.ch (Peter Schreiner)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 11:59:04 +0200
Subject: GheraNDasaMhitaa
Message-ID: <161227030705.23782.11223594655703263745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear INDOLOGYsts, 

this is to announce the availability of an electronic version
of the Ghera.n.dasa.mhit-a in the library of INDOLOGY. The text
is that of the new edition by Peter THOMI (Wichtrach 1993). It was
Dr. Peter Thomi who made the file on which the printed book is based
available to me; he agreed that I could revise it (by marking
sandhis, compounds, paadas) and then make it available to the 
scholarly community. My (and your) thanks to Peter Thomi for his
generosity! (Dr. Peter Thomi, Institut fuer Indologie, CH-3114 Wichtrach 
-- he has no email address.)

I am submitting three files (and I thank Dominik for handling 
the technicalities of this submission!):
The INPUT-Version starts with information about input conventions
(transliteration etc.) and is the source file for the other two 
versions: TEXT is the automatically generated running text (with
all sandhis reconstituted, compound-markers eliminated). PAUSA is
an automatically generated version in which all words are transformed
into their "pausa"-form (i.e. as they would appear at the end of a
line or sentence). The TEXT-format will have to be used for analytic
steps like metrical analysis and may be preferred by people
who do not like to work with a text which contains (too many) traces
of someone else's work; the PAUSA-format will probably be 
preferred for indexes etc. I may add that the fact that these 
versions can be automatically generated is one of the main reasons
for defending this particular INPUT-version (sometimes called
the TZ-format, which refers to Tuebingen and Zuerich as the places
of origin).

Any feedback, corrections, suggestions etc. are of course very
welcome.

Peter Schreiner





From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Wed Jun  4 20:32:51 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 13:32:51 -0700
Subject: INDOLOGY digest 686
Message-ID: <161227030711.23782.15986497621977734356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote:

> Vidya >> I was under the impression that the ottillAta nambUdiris 
> Vidya >> were supposed to be a result of a curse that SankarAcArya 
> Vidya >> is supposed to have laid on some relatives of his, barring 
> Vidya >> them from Vedic study. Is this correct? 
> 
> It may be S'ankara-Digvijaya lore, but S'ankarAcArya doesn't 
> seem to figure at all in this issue although he may have cursed
> his relatives as above.

Yes, it is Sankaravijayam lore.

> 
> I very much doubt if S'ankarAcArya himself had any standing 
> that accorded him such legislative power, among the highly 
> orthodox and ritualistic Nambudiris of that time... also, it
> is unclear how the medieval Nambudiris viewed him or if they 
> had any special opinion at all. In the modern era, Nambudiris 
> have tended to be more receptive of S'ankarAcArya embracing
> him as one of their own.
> 

The ritualistic nambUdiris might have had little to do with advaita as
such, but to explain/justify their social and religious practices, they
seem to have invoked Sankara's authority. There is a text called
jAtinirNaya attributed to him, and the keraLolpatti also mentions that
Sankara laid down special norms for the nambUdiris, including practices
like cremation in one's own backyard, no practice of sati and no shaving
of the hair of widows. Both Thurston's Castes and Tribes of South India,
and Sewell's Sketch of the Dynasties of South India mention this. 

Vidyasankar







From kfpji at mlucom2.urz.uni-halle.de  Wed Jun  4 15:05:51 1997
From: kfpji at mlucom2.urz.uni-halle.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 16:05:51 +0100
Subject: Yogavasistha
Message-ID: <161227030708.23782.8819548974498502100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As regards the YV?s concept of akasa - basically expressing the idea 
of space[-like emptiness] -, it has been treated by me in a monograph 
entitled:
	Walter Slaje, Vom Moksopaya-Sastra zum 
	Yogavasistha-Maharamayana. Vienna 1994.
References to cid-akasa etc. can be found by using the index.

Kindly regarding, W. Slaje





From YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU  Wed Jun  4 21:00:03 1997
From: YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU (J. Randall Groves)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 17:00:03 -0400
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030713.23782.17432665721695699242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists: I have been reading a translation of the Ramayana
lately, and I am quite familiar with the Greek epics, THe Illiad and
Odyssey. Has anyone done much in the way of a serious comparison of the
two sets of epics? (Ramayana and Mahabarata vs. Illiad and Odyssey). I
know Toynbee sees epics as the result of a certain stage in the
distintegration of a civilization, but I am thinking more about a more
specific comparison of the two sets of epics. I came across a reference
to a bow that was difficult to bend in the Ramayana (Shiva's bow), and
got to thinking of Odysseus' bow, and then to the comparison in
general.Any thoughts or r eferences? Thanks in advance.  Randy Groves,
Associate Prof. Of Humanities, Ferris State University





From lpatton at emory.edu  Wed Jun  4 21:32:26 1997
From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie L. Patton)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 17:32:26 -0400
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030715.23782.10493062028075086421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See Gregory Alles, The Iliad, the Ramayana, and the Work of Religion:
Failed Persuasion and Religious Mystification (University Park, PA: Penn
State University Press, 1994).  His biblio would also be helpful for your
interests.

Also, on comparative epics more generally, Masaki Mori, Epic Grandeur:
Toward a Comparative Poetics of the Epic (Albany: SUNY Press, 1997)

You're probably already quite familiar with Felix Oinas' work (Heroic Epic
and Saga, ed. by Felix Oinas and intro by Richard Dorson, Bloomingtom:
Indiana University Press, 1978). I've found it a helpful teaching
tool, even though old.

Laurie L. Patton
Emory University
Dept. of Religion
Atlanta, GA 30322
FAX: 404-727-7597


On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, J. Randall Groves wrote:

> Dear Indologists: I have been reading a translation of the Ramayana
> lately, and I am quite familiar with the Greek epics, THe Illiad and
> Odyssey. Has anyone done much in the way of a serious comparison of the
> two sets of epics? (Ramayana and Mahabarata vs. Illiad and Odyssey). I
> know Toynbee sees epics as the result of a certain stage in the
> distintegration of a civilization, but I am thinking more about a more
> specific comparison of the two sets of epics. I came across a reference
> to a bow that was difficult to bend in the Ramayana (Shiva's bow), and
> got to thinking of Odysseus' bow, and then to the comparison in
> general.Any thoughts or r eferences? Thanks in advance.  Randy Groves,
> Associate Prof. Of Humanities, Ferris State University
> 






From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu  Thu Jun  5 03:54:56 1997
From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 20:54:56 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030720.23782.12010011905356231138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




Date: June 4, 1997 
 
Indology List
indology at Liverpool.ac.uk
 
Dear Members,
 
This has been a useful discussion of internal Brahman
sub-division and the "historical" traditions associated
with them.  I would expect that Srini's comments about
the lack of Shankara's "legislative power" to
excommunicate a group of Nambudris and that it had much
more to do with the Raja of Kollengode, as patron and
ruler (ajudging rights to receive gifts), is closer to
the historical (societal) "truth".  Even so, it would
be interesting, as Robert Zydenbos suggests, to collect
and compare motifs from the (internally significant)
legendary history of the splits.  These, too, speak to
something meaningful.  Are there others?  Brahmans
have, for centuries, created legends to explain the
ranks and divisions, internal and between communities.
They were commissioned and paid to do this.  There must
be something of a genre to what they created, one which
utilized motifs and themes and stories over and over. 
Perhaps the core set is that of their own internal
ranks and divisions. Is there such a literature?
 
 
 
Peter J. Claus                        
fax: (510) 704-9636
pclaus at csuhayward.edu







From clopez at husc.harvard.edu  Thu Jun  5 01:03:34 1997
From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 21:03:34 -0400
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030718.23782.3259679057648194634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> At 23:06 +0200 4/06/97, J. Randall Groves wrote:
> >Dear Indologists: I have been reading a translation of the Ramayana
> >lately, and I am quite familiar with the Greek epics, THe Illiad and
> >Odyssey. Has anyone done much in the way of a serious comparison of the
> >two sets of epics? (Ramayana and Mahabarata vs. Illiad and Odyssey). I
> >know Toynbee sees epics as the result of a certain stage in the
> >distintegration of a civilization, but I am thinking more about a more
> >specific comparison of the two sets of epics. I came across a reference
> >to a bow that was difficult to bend in the Ramayana (Shiva's bow), and
> >got to thinking of Odysseus' bow, and then to the comparison in
> >general.Any thoughts or r eferences? Thanks in advance.  Randy Groves,
> >Associate Prof. Of Humanities, Ferris State University
>
You might want to take a look at Ruth Katz' Arjuna in the Mahabharata.
Although primary concerned with the study of the hero, with Arjuna as a
focus, she does make comparison throughout the work to other epics (Home,
Babylonian Creation Epic, etc)  It might be useful for you.


******************************************************************************
ye paakazaMsaM viharanta evair ye vaa bhadraM duuSayanti svadhabhiH
ahaye vaa taan pradadaatu soma aa vaa dadhaatu nirRter upasthe (RV 7.104.9)
******************************************************************************
Carlos Lopez
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies       Harvard University
******************************************************************************






From mgansten at sbbs.se  Wed Jun  4 21:06:41 1997
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 23:06:41 +0200
Subject: Aajyaspar'sa
Message-ID: <161227030714.23782.7389838223089031860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a late astrological text, I find the warning that a certain configuration
may cause danger from fire or "aajyaspar'sa". Could the panditas on this
list shed any light on what this term may refer to? Perhaps some sort of
disease?

Thanks in advance,
Martin Gansten






From thillaud at unice.fr  Thu Jun  5 00:24:25 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 02:24:25 +0200
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030717.23782.14883503862098652965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 23:06 +0200 4/06/97, J. Randall Groves wrote:
>Dear Indologists: I have been reading a translation of the Ramayana
>lately, and I am quite familiar with the Greek epics, THe Illiad and
>Odyssey. Has anyone done much in the way of a serious comparison of the
>two sets of epics? (Ramayana and Mahabarata vs. Illiad and Odyssey). I
>know Toynbee sees epics as the result of a certain stage in the
>distintegration of a civilization, but I am thinking more about a more
>specific comparison of the two sets of epics. I came across a reference
>to a bow that was difficult to bend in the Ramayana (Shiva's bow), and
>got to thinking of Odysseus' bow, and then to the comparison in
>general.Any thoughts or r eferences? Thanks in advance.  Randy Groves,
>Associate Prof. Of Humanities, Ferris State University

	That's exactly my actual research, a comparaison beetwen the Trojan
cycle and the Mahabharata. But nothing is yet publied. The comparaison is
not just based on narrative but mainly on the rapports between the heroes
(and the Gods linked to). And the work is not a symmetric one because the
Mahabharata is well known, not the Trojan War myths: I must add other Greek
myths who appears as fragments of lost variants and that cause many trouble
in the methodology. I've perhaps found a third degraded version in
Lituanian folklore, so I begin to learn Lituanian.
	I have yet some spectacular results but you must wait 2 or 3 years
to obtain a coherent publication because too many Heroes and Gods are
involved.

	But, in my sense the comparaison between Ulysse's and Rama's bows
is fruitless, because that's a natural strength test and moreover the two
persons nor the circonstances are'nt parallel: without common function AND
structure two isolated facts can't be a proof.

	As an example, I can compare the two triads:
married: Menelaus + Helene ; brothers: Menelaus - Agamemnon
married: Arjuna + Draupadi ; brothers: Draupadi - Dhrstadyumna
	because:
	1) Menelaus is diwogenes, Arjuna is son of Indra, two Gods of
Thunder and both heroes won their wives in a svayamvara.
	2) Agamemnon and Dhrstadyumna are both generals of the army.
	3) Helene is daughter of Nemesis and Dhrstadymna and Draupadi born
for the vengeance of Drupada.
	4) Helene is a gift of Aphrodite and Draupadi the daughter of Sri,
and Aphrodite and Sri are born from agitated see (shell and lotus are
similar symbols: pure white in the mud).
	5) Draupadi and Helene have five husbands (Theseus, Menelaus,
Paris, Diphobos and Achilleus for the last one).
	6) Agamemnon kill Thyestos and is killed by Egisthos, son of
Thyestos; Dhrstadyumna kill Drona and is killed by Asvatthaman, son of
Drona.

	Yet I can return to the Greece and search about the problem of
Agamemnon and Menelaus: brother-in-law > brother (in the Lituanian version
that's bother-in-law as in India). And facts are coming: Atreus is without
any consistance (not in the Seven against Thebai, in Argonauts, Calydon's
hunting, Pelias funeral games, &c.); Pausanias give many testimonia of
Agamemnon in Laconia but none in Argolida (except a tomb), he is said to
conquer a kingdom in Argolida by killing a son of Thyestos and married the
widow Clytemnestra. And Helena, giving birth in Argos to Iphigenia,
daughter of Theseus, send her to Agamemnon.=> probably, in an ancient
version of the myth, Agamemnon and Helena were brother and sister! But, if
you compare with the miraculous birth of Draupadi and Dhrstadyumna
(ayonisambhava), the word 'adelphos' can't be used because it is the same
word than 'samagarbhas' (*sm-gvelbhos). Moreover the crime of Agamemnon
sacrifying Iphigenia is greater if she is his sister's daughter (same
blood) than if she is his own daughter (doubt exist). All is more coherent.

	That was just an example of the method I'm using.
	Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Thu Jun  5 07:52:06 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 09:52:06 +0200
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030721.23782.9825601875759472398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 22:06 4.06.97 BST, you wrote:
>Dear Indologists: I have been reading a translation of the Ramayana
>lately, and I am quite familiar with the Greek epics, THe Illiad and
>Odyssey. Has anyone done much in the way of a serious comparison of the
>two sets of epics? (Ramayana and Mahabarata vs. Illiad and Odyssey). I
>know Toynbee sees epics as the result of a certain stage in the
>distintegration of a civilization, but I am thinking more about a more
>specific comparison of the two sets of epics. I came across a reference
>to a bow that was difficult to bend in the Ramayana (Shiva's bow), and
>got to thinking of Odysseus' bow, and then to the comparison in
>general.Any thoughts or r eferences? Thanks in advance.  Randy Groves,
>Associate Prof. Of Humanities, Ferris State University

You may want to read: Christophe Vielle: Le mytho-cycle heroique dans l'aire
indo-europeenne. Correspondances et transformations helleno-aryennes.
(Publications de l'Institut de Louvain). Louvain-la-Neuve 1996.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Jun  5 10:23:57 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 11:23:57 +0100
Subject: HELP!!: Request for Rg praatishaakhya suutra (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227030723.23782.12096397909664071255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:22:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: JR Gardner <jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: Request for Rg praatishaakhya suutra

I am trying to grapple with some matters of Vedic accent and am in
something of an urgent need for RPr. 1.60-1.68-- I know that 1.64 reads:

tat trimaatre shaakalaa darshayanty aacaaryashaastraaparilopahetavaH
(cf. RV 10.146.1: vindatii3M)

I've been unsuccessful finding the text on short notice here 'midst our
cornfields, and would deeply appreciate if someone could simply type these
few lines into ITRANS for me via e-mail.  If finger soreness and carpal
tunnel be at issue, I could survive with only 1.62-1.67.  I'm on something
of a deadline--so any speed will elicit the best return-favor netiquette I
can manage.

TYIA
jrg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.









From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Thu Jun  5 16:31:53 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 11:31:53 -0500
Subject: HELP!!: Request for Rg praatishaakhya suutra (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227030726.23782.15959951937335884639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


My warmest thanks to the following honor role of folks who sent me the
requested portions of the RPr.

 Michael Witzel
 Parameswara Aithal
 George Cardona
 FUSHIMI Makoto

This was a GREAT help.

jrg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.









From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Thu Jun  5 14:23:35 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 14:23:35 +0000
Subject: Leitner (to G. Zeller)
Message-ID: <161227030738.23782.17828145655060174994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


As I suppose this might be interesting to others, too, I send it through 
the list.

Liebe Frau Dr. Zeller,
leider war ich weg in Leiden und konnte darum nicht frueher diese 
Information zu senden. Ich habe keine besonders gute Quellen ueber 
Leitner gefunden, aber jedenfalls scheint es mir, dass ich ein bisschen 
mehr als die andere habe.
Mit besten Gruessen

Klaus Karttunen

LEITNER, Gottlieb Wilhelm. Pest 14.10.1840 - Bonn 22.3.1899. Hungarian 
Indologist in the U.K. and India. Professor in Lahore. Son of a 
physician, moved in 1847 to Constantinople, educated there and in 
London. In the age of 15 he served as interpreter to the British in the 
Crimean war. From 1859 Lecturer in Arabic, Turcic and Modern Greek at 
King's College in London, from 1861 Professor of Arabic and Mohammadan 
Law ibid. Ph.D. 1862 Freiburg (Breisgau or Switzerland?). In 1864 
"borrowed" to India (keeping his London chair) to assist in the 
foundation of Lahore University, in 1864-84 served as Director of the 
Government Oriental College and Registrar of the University there. In 
1866-67 travelled in Kashmir, Ladakh and Dardistan on behalf of Panjab 
government. In 1887 retired from India and became the Director of Royal 
Dramatic College in Woking, which he turned into an Oriental Institute.
GWL was the founder of Dardic philology and the first to study and 
describe several new languages found during his field tour. He was also 
interested in Buddhist antiquities and the Gandharan art.
Publications: Results of a Tour in Dardistan, Kashmir, Little Tibet, 
Ladak. 1-5. 1866-71 (perhaps same as the next).
- The Races and Languages of Dardistan. 1-3. 1867-71, 2nd ed. 1877.
- The People and Language of Hunza. 18??.
- further articles and books on Indology, Arabic and Turkish.
Sources: Das Gelehrte Ungarn; O.B.L. 5; Buckland, Dictionary; not in 
Magy. Eletr. lex.; a defective bibliography in Bollettini del quarto 
Congresso intern. degli Orientalisti. Firenze 1878, 24-26.
(Diacritics have been removed for e-mail. I have not yet had time to 
check his publications from the N.U.Catalogue and the B.L.Catalogue)






From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Thu Jun  5 21:40:55 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 14:40:55 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030731.23782.4374053046403603115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


> This has been a useful discussion of internal Brahman
> sub-division and the "historical" traditions associated
> with them.  I would expect that Srini's comments about
> the lack of Shankara's "legislative power" to
> excommunicate a group of Nambudris and that it had much
> more to do with the Raja of Kollengode, as patron and
> ruler (ajudging rights to receive gifts), is closer to
> the historical (societal) "truth".  Even so, it would

Very probably so, but there are certain other aspects to it too. The
nambudiris have a tradition that in addition to the well-known mathas
established by Sankara elsewhere in India, three of his disciples also
founded mathas in Kerala. These were called vaDakke-maDam (northern),
naDuvil-maDam (middle) and tekke-maDam (southern). In fact, around the
turn of this century, when the Sringeri maTha made efforts to identify the
village of Kaladi, the land was found to be in the possession of the
naDuvil-maDam. Original manuscripts of some advaita texts, like 
sarvajnAtman's samkshepa-SArIraka have been found with the naDuvil-maDam.
The vaDakke-maDam's succession ran out centuries ago, and it is said that
the funds of this maDam were then used to organize the first of the two
major 'yogams' (Vedic colleges) of the nambudiris. So Sankaracharya's
status among the nambudiris might not have been negligible at all. 

Another piece of evidence comes from the literature of the dvaitins.
According to the sumadhva-vijayam, an early animosity between dvaitins and
advaitins is traced to a debate between AnandatIrtha (Madhva) and one
padmatIrtha, who is said to have been a sannyAsin from Sringeri. The site
of the debate was Trivandrum, and the advaitins are described as already
having a stronghold there, which allowed them to persecute AnandatIrtha
after the debate, and confiscate his library. 

The local ruler might have had a lot to do with legislative action
concerning nambudiris, but it must also be remembered that the nambudiri
brahmins wielded a lot of power with respect to the kshatriyas of Kerala,
much more so than anywhere else in India. The name of Sankaracharya might
have been used by rulers and their advisors to lend some extra authority
to any action, especially during and after Vijayanagar times. 

Vidyasankar






From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Thu Jun  5 14:47:47 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 14:47:47 +0000
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030737.23782.588766968973911333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Two comments to the question of epics comparison:
The comparison between the Indian  and the Greek as well as Germanic 
epics was rather common in early Indology. Adolf Holtzmann the Elder 
made comparisons in the 1840s and some thirty years later Albrecht Weber 
made an unsuccesful attempt to show Homeric influences in the plot of 
the Ramayana.
As to the motif of a bow hard to bend, I think this is rather common in 
Indo-European traditions, not only in the R. and the Odyssey. It is 
certainly found in the Nibelunge Not and I think in Iranian and in some 
further sources (I have no references at hand).

Klaus






From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Thu Jun  5 21:53:26 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 14:53:26 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030732.23782.9393608138874717565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Robert Zydenbos wrote:

> In Karnataka, stereotypical images about the other group are often
> summarized in short rhymes or puns on the name of the other caste. For
> instance, I have often heard "Kamme endare hemme" ("Kamme means 'pride'"), a
> catchphrase which expresses the supposedly arrogant airs which Kammes have
> about them (significantly, I have never heard this from the mouth of a Kamme).

Such catchy statements express stereotypes among Tamil speakers too.
examples:

vaDaman mutti vaishNavan - supposedly most of Ramanuja's original
followers were vaDamas. 

tanjAvUr taLukku - Tanjavur Brahmins are supposed to be very shrewd.

north Arcot aSaDu, ashTasahasram aSaDu, kaNDramANikkam kaNDrAvi, ...

Tamilians like alliteration, I suppose!

Vidyasankar






From YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU  Thu Jun  5 19:37:11 1997
From: YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU (J. Randall Groves)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 15:37:11 -0400
Subject: Thanks for Epic Info
Message-ID: <161227030728.23782.7569689566221568203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists:
Thanksfor the references on comparing Indian and Greek Epics. I have go
t my interlibrary loan person working! On the bow comparison, Prof.
Thillaud is quite correct to say there is no real connection between
Odysseus' bow and SHiva's, nor did I intend any. It was merely the spur
to my idea to investigate the matter. Again, I really appreciate the
quick response to my question. You have all been very helpful to me in
my work on the philosophy of history. Randy Groves





From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  5 23:47:30 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 16:47:30 -0700
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030734.23782.9578847209451339365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Wed Jun  4 14:06:04 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
mail.liv.ac.uk
>          with Local-SMTP (PP); Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:05:21 +0100
>Message-Id:  <04JUN97.18361057.0021.MUSIC at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU>
>Date: Wed,  4 Jun 1997 22:04:59 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
>Precedence: bulk
>From: "J. Randall Groves" <YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU>
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: epics comparison
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>X-Comment: Indology mailing list
>
>Dear Indologists: I have been reading a translation of the Ramayana
>lately, and I am quite familiar with the Greek epics, THe Illiad and
>Odyssey. Has anyone done much in the way of a serious comparison of the
>two sets of epics? (Ramayana and Mahabarata vs. Illiad and Odyssey). I
>know Toynbee sees epics as the result of a certain stage in the
>distintegration of a civilization, but I am thinking more about a more
>specific comparison of the two sets of epics. I came across a reference
>to a bow that was difficult to bend in the Ramayana (Shiva's bow), and
>got to thinking of Odysseus' bow, and then to the comparison in
>general.Any thoughts or r eferences? Thanks in advance.  Randy Groves,
>Associate Prof. Of Humanities, Ferris State University


  In addition to the papers already mentioned, I think that it would be 
really worthwhile looking at the following book:
"Was the Ramayana copied from Homer?:A reply to Professor Weber"
by Kashinath T Telang. Publisher:Publishers Parlour
DElhi, 1976

This refutes Dr WEbers( a prof at the university of Berlin) claim
that the Valmiki plagiarised Homers writings. This is arguably the 
oldest comparitive book on this topic...(K.T.Telang passed away in
1893).
Krishna




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From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  6 00:20:35 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 17:20:35 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030735.23782.9659626173140160579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Jun  5 13:04:22 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
mail.liv.ac.uk
>          with Local-SMTP (PP); Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:57:33 +0100
>Message-Id: <a51_9706052138 at flevoland.xs4all.nl>
>Date: Thu,  5 Jun 1997 20:56:25 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
>Precedence: bulk
>From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (Robert Zydenbos)
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Brahman divisions
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>X-Comment: Indology mailing list
>
>
>Replies to msg 05 Jun 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>(pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu)
>
> pce> This has been a useful discussion of internal Brahman
> pce> sub-division and the "historical" traditions associated
> pce> with them.  
>
> pce> Even so, it would
> pce> be interesting, as Robert Zydenbos suggests, to collect
> pce> and compare motifs from the (internally significant)
> pce> legendary history of the splits.  These, too, speak to
> pce> something meaningful. 
>
> pce> There must
> pce> be something of a genre to what they created, one which
> pce> utilized motifs and themes and stories over and over.
> pce> Perhaps the core set is that of their own internal
> pce> ranks and divisions. Is there such a literature?
>
>Over the past years I have been collecting "what brahmins say about 
other
>brahmins", which is usually pejorative and often silly, but in 
interesting
>ways. In Karnataka, stereotypical images about the other group are 
often
>summarized in short rhymes or puns on the name of the other caste. For
>instance, I have often heard "Kamme endare hemme" ("Kamme means 
'pride'"), a
>catchphrase which expresses the supposedly arrogant airs which Kammes 
have
>about them (significantly, I have never heard this from the mouth of a 
Kamme).
>Some of these statements are quite vicious. Because the speakers are 
aware of
>this viciousness, it can be difficult to have people give examples. 
(But this
>is indeed interesting.)


  I am not sure about sayings and that sort of stuff, but in general
Brahmins of any given sub sect seem to be taking a lot of pleasure
in poking fun at other Brahmin subsects. In Tamil Nadu, the Ayyars
have a saying "While the Goat has two horns, the Ayyangars have three"
( a reference to the Namam of the Ayyangars). In Andhra Pradesh, the
Niyogi subsect refers disparagingly to the Vaidiki subsect as 
"Vaideekulu Dudekulu"( Vaidikis stich cotton blankets for a living)
(A reference to their supposed poverty).  In Maharashtra, the 
Konkanastha community seems to be having a low opinion of just about any 
subsect....The Shenvi/Gauda Saraswat Brahmins are the descendants of an 
outcasted Konkanstha youth and a Sudra woman who collected cow dung 
while the Karhade Brahmin are supposed to be the descended from the 
carcass of a dead donkey. The other side of course hits back
by calling the Konkanasthas "Cobras"( A contraction of KOnkanastha
BRAhmin)- a reference to their stereotyped mentality.)
In the Garhwal district, Garhwali brahmins classify themselves as "Lambi 
Dhoti"(Long Dhoti) while the Benaresi Brahmins
as "Choti Dhoti"(Small Dhoti)- a refernce to their superior status.
The Benaresi Brahmins in turn have equally "complementary" things to say 
about Bengali Brahmins i.e. "Bengali Brahmins are the most democratic 
set of people where it comes to eating- they eat anything that walks, 
flies or swims" or "Bengali Brahmins have the following names- 
Bhattacharjee, Mukherjee, Banerjee, Chatterjee and Allergy."
          The only exception of sorts i.e. where people make fun
of Brahmins coming from a PLACE as opposed to a SUBSECT seems to
be in the case of Kumbakkonam town. The well known "Kumbakkonam
business/Kumbakkonam effect " seems to be true of all Brahmin natives of 
this town irrespective of origin/subsect.
Krishna





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From b56 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de  Thu Jun  5 15:27:46 1997
From: b56 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Parameswara Aithal)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 17:27:46 +0200
Subject: HELP!!: Request for Rg praatishaakhya suutra (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227030724.23782.1972619112300794247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





Rte natopaacaritakramasvaraM   // 62 // 
aSTaav aadyaan avasaane 'pragRhyaan aacaaryaa aahur anunaasikaan svaraan // 
63 //
tat .... // 64 //
Rkaaraadayo dasha naaminaH svaraaH // 65 //
puurvo nantaa natiSu namyam uttaraM // 66 //
sahopadho 'riphita ekaveNavad visarjanIyaH svaraghoSavatparaH // 67 // 

With best of wishes and greetings,
parameswara aithal
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:22:01 -0500 (CDT)
> From: JR Gardner <jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Request for Rg praatishaakhya suutra
> 
> I am trying to grapple with some matters of Vedic accent and am in
> something of an urgent need for RPr. 1.60-1.68-- I know that 1.64 reads:
> 
> tat trimaatre shaakalaa darshayanty aacaaryashaastraaparilopahetavaH
> (cf. RV 10.146.1: vindatii3M)
> 
> I've been unsuccessful finding the text on short notice here 'midst our
> cornfields, and would deeply appreciate if someone could simply type these
> few lines into ITRANS for me via e-mail.  If finger soreness and carpal
> tunnel be at issue, I could survive with only 1.62-1.67.  I'm on something
> of a deadline--so any speed will elicit the best return-favor netiquette I
> can manage.
> 
> TYIA
> jrg
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
> School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
> University of Iowa       University of Iowa
> 319-335-2164             319-335-4034
> http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
> than that of which it is the transformation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From apandey at u.washington.edu  Fri Jun  6 02:36:14 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 19:36:14 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions.
Message-ID: <161227030740.23782.7119482121734052651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


To add my $0.02 to this discussion...

There is a story I've been told about the Kanaujiya and Sarayupariya
brahmanas of Uttar Pradesh. I don't know the validity of this story or
whether it refers to the origin of a rift within the Kanaujiya ranks, the
Sarayupariya ranks, or to the rift between these two brahmana classes
which were once considered to be unified.

The recension of the story I heard says that the Kanaujiya brahmanas are
said to call their cross-river brothers, the Sarayupariya brahmanas,
"miiThaa caubes" or "soft Chaubes" (lit. sweet Chaubes), while calling
themselves "ka.Davaa caubes" or "strong Chaubes" (lit. bitter Chaubes).
If this is the case, then I think this story stems from a day when the
Sarayupariyas were not identified separately from the Kanaujiyas, and is a
folk-legend on how the two groups split. Otherwise, it could just be a
story referring to a division within one of the two groups.

The story goes as when some brahmanas of the Kanaujiyas were heading home
from performing a sacrifice, along the way they met a female member of
their village running towards them, how explained to them that some bad
guys were raping the women and pillaging the village and that they were
headed that-a-way. Upon hearing this, some of the brahmanas were enraged
and appealed to the group to chase down the thugs and punish them for
their evil deeds. However, some members protested saying it was
"unbrahmanical" to invite a scuffle, while others were ready to roll up
their dhotiis, er.. sleeves. The protestors lost out, were called "miiThe"
for being too cowardice to even defend their women and homes, and 
ostracized. Those with a fighting disposition became known as "ka.Davaa"
and were hailed for upholding the honor of their community.

I don't know if these "ka.Davaas" ever got their men.

If anyone can shed some light on this story, perhaps a different version,
or a correction, I'd be more than happy to hear it. I've looked for more
than two years now and haven't yet seen a reference to it. I'd
personally like to get to the roots of this story. Perhaps once I
make my trip to India this September, I'll try to dig this story up. But
until then, a "miiThaa caube" I'll remain.

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey






From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl  Thu Jun  5 20:52:44 1997
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 19:52:44 -0100
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030729.23782.6261372476845347584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Replies to msg 05 Jun 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
(pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu)

 pce> This has been a useful discussion of internal Brahman
 pce> sub-division and the "historical" traditions associated
 pce> with them.  

 pce> Even so, it would
 pce> be interesting, as Robert Zydenbos suggests, to collect
 pce> and compare motifs from the (internally significant)
 pce> legendary history of the splits.  These, too, speak to
 pce> something meaningful. 

 pce> There must
 pce> be something of a genre to what they created, one which
 pce> utilized motifs and themes and stories over and over.
 pce> Perhaps the core set is that of their own internal
 pce> ranks and divisions. Is there such a literature?

Over the past years I have been collecting "what brahmins say about other
brahmins", which is usually pejorative and often silly, but in interesting
ways. In Karnataka, stereotypical images about the other group are often
summarized in short rhymes or puns on the name of the other caste. For
instance, I have often heard "Kamme endare hemme" ("Kamme means 'pride'"), a
catchphrase which expresses the supposedly arrogant airs which Kammes have
about them (significantly, I have never heard this from the mouth of a Kamme).
Some of these statements are quite vicious. Because the speakers are aware of
this viciousness, it can be difficult to have people give examples. (But this
is indeed interesting.)

Robert Zydenbos
zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl






From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu  Fri Jun  6 13:57:41 1997
From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 06:57:41 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions.
Message-ID: <161227030750.23782.14981714490195224356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Members,

The various contributions to the list on characterization of Brahman
divisions have been interesting.  Most have been in the nature of
"sayings" or "aphorisms", short, one-line stereotypes.  These exist for
other castes, too, both for sections within a caste as well as for a caste
as a whole (in relation to a local caste system). In Tulu this is a major
part of a particular folk genre and lists of caste stereotypes like this,
interspersed with short melody and dance, are performed by a particular
caste of performers (low caste) during a particular season, traveling door
to door. 

Anshuman Pandey's short story is also commonly found in Indian folklore. 
Like the one he cites, the story explains the name of two sub-groups. 
Again, these can be found for many castes and at all levels of society. 
One of the most frequent themes is, as in the one cited, cowardice in the
face of violence to their women (or pollution of the caste line). See eg. 
Narayana Rao's essay, "Epics and Ideology: Six Telugu Folk Epics" in
_Another Harmony: New Essays in the Folklore of India_ ed. Ramanujan and
Blackburn.  As several epics mentioned in that article indicate, some of
these stories develop into major ritual performance events.

All of the examples cited so far are from oral tradition. I would expect
that some of these kinds of stories find their way (no doubt transformed)
into "puranas" (caste puranas) and the Brahman written tradition. No?


Peter Claus






From gldnreef at primenet.com  Fri Jun  6 15:25:05 1997
From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 08:25:05 -0700
Subject: epics comparison
Message-ID: <161227030754.23782.14080897904412399702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:39 AM 6/6/97 BST, Klaus Karttunen wrote:
>
>Two comments to the question of epics comparison:
>The comparison between the Indian  and the Greek as well as Germanic 
>epics was rather common in early Indology. Adolf Holtzmann the Elder 
>made comparisons in the 1840s and some thirty years later Albrecht Weber 
>made an unsuccesful attempt to show Homeric influences in the plot of 
>the Ramayana.

As far as I am aware the first attempt at comparative mythology was by The
Brothers Grimm in the 1830's -- immediately after the development of Grimm's
law. It is interesting to note that comparative philology and "Universal
Folktale Origins" were one in the same project for many.  There is a
particularly distasteful exposition of this in Louis Renan's gushing "Sur la
Philologie."






From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Jun  6 08:11:04 1997
From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 09:11:04 +0100
Subject: Leitner (to G. Zeller)
Message-ID: <161227030743.23782.16602092805048705386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to all who answered to my question about Leitner, especially 
to Ruth Laila Schmidt and Klaus Karttunen. The information in
the book Ruth named:  'The Gilgit Game: Explorers of the Western 
Himalayas 1865-95 by John Keay. London, 1979 are interesting and 
Klaus too should look into it to supplement the one or other point 
of his biographical sketch. Thus, Leitner must have converterted that 
house in Woking already in 1884 into the Oriental Institute. Stein 
lived there for about 4 weeks in 1884 and describes it and his few 
inhabitants in a letter to Roth. The whole idea was looked upon a 
failure, as Rost suggests in a letter to Roth. 
Klaus, if you like Stein's description for your collection I can send 
it as attachment to an email message. His letters I have already in 
my computer.
So long
Gabriele

As I suppose this might be interesting to others, too, I send it 
through the list.

(...)
LEITNER, Gottlieb Wilhelm. Pest 14.10.1840 - Bonn 22.3.1899. Hungarian 
Indologist in the U.K. and India. Professor in Lahore. Son of a 
physician, moved in 1847 to Constantinople, educated there and in 
London. In the age of 15 he served as interpreter to the British in the 
Crimean war. From 1859 Lecturer in Arabic, Turcic and Modern Greek at 
King's College in London, from 1861 Professor of Arabic and Mohammadan 
Law ibid. Ph.D. 1862 Freiburg (Breisgau or Switzerland?). In 1864 
"borrowed" to India (keeping his London chair) to assist in the 
foundation of Lahore University, in 1864-84 served as Director of the 
Government Oriental College and Registrar of the University there. In 
1866-67 travelled in Kashmir, Ladakh and Dardistan on behalf of Panjab 
government. In 1887 retired from India and became the Director of Royal 
Dramatic College in Woking, which he turned into an Oriental Institute.
GWL was the founder of Dardic philology and the first to study and 
describe several new languages found during his field tour. He was also 
interested in Buddhist antiquities and the Gandharan art.
Publications: Results of a Tour in Dardistan, Kashmir, Little Tibet, 
Ladak. 1-5. 1866-71 (perhaps same as the next).
- The Races and Languages of Dardistan. 1-3. 1867-71, 2nd ed. 1877.
- The People and Language of Hunza. 18??.
- further articles and books on Indology, Arabic and Turkish.
Sources: Das Gelehrte Ungarn; O.B.L. 5; Buckland, Dictionary; not in 
Magy. Eletr. lex.; a defective bibliography in Bollettini del quarto 
Congresso intern. degli Orientalisti. Firenze 1878, 24-26.
(Diacritics have been removed for e-mail. I have not yet had time to 
check his publications from the N.U.Catalogue and the B.L.Catalogue)



----------------------------------------------------------
Dr Gabriele Zeller
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
72016 Tuebingen
Tel:+49-7071-2974030
Fax:+49-7071-293123

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub
----------------------------------------------------------





From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Fri Jun  6 08:15:34 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 10:15:34 +0200
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030745.23782.12231478145807623300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>          The only exception of sorts i.e. where people make fun
>of Brahmins coming from a PLACE as opposed to a SUBSECT seems to
>be in the case of Kumbakkonam town. The well known "Kumbakkonam
>business/Kumbakkonam effect " seems to be true of all Brahmin natives of 
>this town irrespective of origin/subsect.
>Krishna

Excuse me, but this is getting very interesting: What is the well known
"Kubakkonam business/Kumbakkonam effect"?

Regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From athr at loc.gov  Fri Jun  6 14:46:20 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 10:46:20 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030752.23782.13807956716356733593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The problem is not so much pragmatics as mnemotechnics, whether it is
possible to stabilize an oral 'text' in an unchanging verbal form without
writing.  Parry, Lord, and Ong, as I understand it, deny that it is.  Ong,
in a talk at the U. of Washington some years ago, said he knew of no
verified example of a text even as long as the Nicene Creed (which I would
add is pretty comparable in length to Vedic hymns) being created and
transmitted in an unchanging form without the use of writing.

On the other hand, the samhitas do seem to represent an older form of
Sanskrit than the brahmanas, although on the Parry-Lord thesis the
constant change involved in oral transmission should erode archaisms and
leave the form of a hymn linguistically quite similar to that of a
commentary on it.  Then can we say that it is possible that a population
(the ancient brahmins) can without the use or knowledge of writing keep an
older form of language linguistically productive while for other sacred
uses and much more for secular uses a changed more recent form is used? 
I.e. did the brahmins of some centuries B.C. continue to produce and
transmit hymns in the grammar of the Samhitas whilst producing Brahmanas
in a changed grammar and presumably using something changed yet further
for everyday secular uses?

Allen W. Thrasher

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.



On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

> 	Dear Birgit,
> 
> 	I'm not a Vedicist but I know that epics and prayers are two
> literary genres who differ totally in pragmatic: nor same circumstances,
> nor same 'talker', nor same 'addressed' (men/Gods), nor same intention
> (compare Pater Noster or Ave Maria with Holy Bible). So you can't apply
> Parry's work to the Vedas and Renou was quite right.
> 	Regards,
> Dominique
> 
> Dominique THILLAUD
> Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France
> 
> 
> 
> 






From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu  Fri Jun  6 21:07:23 1997
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 11:07:23 -1000
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030767.23782.4552317788596831411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> Such catchy statements express stereotypes among Tamil speakers too.
> examples:
> 
> vaDaman mutti vaishNavan - supposedly most of Ramanuja's original
> followers were vaDamas. 
> 
> tanjAvUr taLukku - Tanjavur Brahmins are supposed to be very shrewd.
> 
> north Arcot aSaDu, ashTasahasram aSaDu, kaNDramANikkam kaNDrAvi, ...
> 
> Tamilians like alliteration, I suppose!


Some more:

 "chOzhiyan kudumi chummA AdAthu"    difficult to translate because 
                                       the intended meaning is unclear.

 "Attukkum mAttukkum rendu kombu     Goats and cows have two horns,
   aiyyangAr sAmikku mUNu kombu"       Iyengars have three horns (the
                                       three-pronged "nAmam" that
                                       Iyengars put on their forehead)


Expectedly, there are also some bigoted
remarks about other castes:

  "thInikku thakuntha laddhi       The shit depends on the diet
    jAthikku thakuntha buddhi"       the mentality depends on the caste


No offence intended.


Narayan Sriranga Raja.







From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Fri Jun  6 19:15:07 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 12:15:07 -0700
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030764.23782.15211740549924969730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



>   	These are excellent case studies of specific variables. It seems to me,
> however, that problems come in when one argues that compositional
> technology **determines** cognitive and social significance. To claim that
> a particular tool or technique of memory or writing will ALWAYS have
> certain social and cognitive effects is where one runs into trouble.

It seems to me that as far as studying the past is concerned, one can find
specific examples both for and against this. But the future is a different
cup of tea. 

A friend of mine at Caltech envisages a future where voice recognition,
pattern recognition and language translation technologies are so advanced
that one can do away with keyboards and speak to a computer. This is a
favorite theme of sci-fi movies. This colleage is concerned that such
technology, in addition to promoting a dull conformity to some industry
standard, could breed a society where most people will slowly lose both
the ability to write and the ability to commit things to memory. Given the
great reliance that people place on computers even in today's society,
such an argument does have its merits.

Vidyasankar








From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu  Fri Jun  6 16:33:16 1997
From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 12:33:16 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030756.23782.12156693847479961086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It's curious how - perhaps because we have already let writing rot our
memorization skills - we seem to draw an automatic equivalence between
written text and fixed text, while oral texts we assume must be variable.
This is curious since it contradicts the experience of every one of us.

First of all, as anyone with even a smidgeon of philological training
knows, the most characteristic quality of written texts is that there are
always different versions, recensions, variants. How many scholars have
spent their lives correlating variant texts in the pursuit of that phantasm
called the Ur-text (or, more modestly, that other odd goal, the "best
reading")? The variations are as likely (or maybe even more likely) to come
from scribal errors than from different oral transmissions.

Tell a child a fairy tale or story or song for the first time, and woe to
you if you change even the smallest detail the next time.

Sit down and carefully read Genesis 1:2-3 with anyone orally reared in the
story, and you will have a tough time convincing them that there is no
apple in the story, the serpent is not treated like anything demonic much
less the devil himself (in fact, the serpent is the only character in the
story who sticks to the literal truth!), Eve already the difference between
good and bad before she ate the fruit (she determines it is good for eating
before taking her first bite), etc.; the more carefully the story is read,
the more discordant it becomes with the sunday school (oral) version. Even
when you remind someone that the oral version requires the written version
for its own authority, you will have a tough time trying to convince them
to abandon their oral interpretation and instead embrace the written
version.

To speak correctly of the Vedas we should probably not call them texts (if
that implies to someone that they were originally written) but
compositions. They were musical recitations, memorized and recited not only
word for word but note for note, intonation for intonation. It has
frequently been argued that Indians resisted writing as long as they did
precisely because they believed (rightly) that writing will make the memory
weak.

The Indians were famous in the ancient world (especially China) for their
feats of memory. The Chinese, long addicted to writing, were, like us,
skeptical of the claims of Indian pundits to have entire huge Buddhist
sutras memorized.

Years ago Richard Robinson told this story (I've never run into the text he
drew it from, but then I haven't looked for it):

Some skeptical Chinese challenged an Indian pundit who had claimed to have
memorized vast quantities of sutras. They chose the Lotus Sutra, and with
two scribes following along in a written text. He recited all day, they
went to sleep at night, and the next morning picked up where he left off.
By midday he had finished. The scribes were impressed, but said he got two
words wrong. Confidently, he asserted he was right, he had not gotten
anything wrong, the written text must be in error. He was so insistent,
that the Chinese sent to another city for another copy of the sutra, one
with a more solid pedigree. When it was checked, lo and behold, the pundit
was right. The Chinese were so impressed, that memorization of sutras
became de rigueur. Even today some Korean Buddhists memorize humunguous
sutras like the Avatamsaka sutra (which is huge), until they are able to
recite it backwards and forwards.

One last example: How many of us remember even a single word of any
textbook we read in third grade? Yet if we hear some meaningless commercial
jingle from that period, or some song we utterly hated at the time, how
many of us almost involuntarily begin to sing along and perhaps feel like
we are meeting up with an old friend? Memory, not ink, fixates texts.

Dan Lusthaus
Florida State University







From thillaud at unice.fr  Fri Jun  6 10:41:08 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 12:41:08 +0200
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030747.23782.5274758445262011584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	Dear Birgit,

	I'm not a Vedicist but I know that epics and prayers are two
literary genres who differ totally in pragmatic: nor same circumstances,
nor same 'talker', nor same 'addressed' (men/Gods), nor same intention
(compare Pater Noster or Ave Maria with Holy Bible). So you can't apply
Parry's work to the Vedas and Renou was quite right.
	Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From athr at loc.gov  Fri Jun  6 17:46:32 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 13:46:32 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030758.23782.1895761907907125562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dan Lusthaus has given several excellent examples of the powers of human
memory to preserve compositions word for word.  He also accurately points
out that writing gives no guarantee of verbal fixity.  The problem remains
however that the verified examples of verbatim memorization of large texts
come from societies that are literate, and further from groups that are
quite intensely literate, although the memorization of compositions
with neither the teacher nor the pupil having a written text open in front
of him plays an extremely important part in their culture.  What we need
to know whether it is likely or not that the hymns of the Vedas or other
compositions supposedly first composed and then handed down for many
generations without the use of writing at all is examples of similar
things happening in modern times in illiterate cultures (or maybe
subcultures) in which one version was performed and transcribed (by
writing) or recorded (by electronic means) and checked against later
performances for verbal identity or at least something approaching it.
Ong and other students maintain there are no such examples, but perhaps
someone else has found them.

Feats of memorization in highly literate cultures are by no means
uncommon.  In Jesuit schools in the early centuries of that order a common
punishment for misbehavior was to stay behind in the classroom until one
had learned a hundred lines of Latin verse.  My own great great
grandfather is said in family tradition to have known the King James Bible
by heart.  Contra Plato, writing does not weaken memory as long as one
takes pains to exercise memory.

Allen W. Thrasher

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.







From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Fri Jun  6 05:22:58 1997
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 14:22:58 +0900
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030741.23782.15438593099729881643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As the comparison of epics has recently sprung up, I thought it a good
time to ask something that I've had on my mind for quite a while. 

I was reading Walter Ong's "Orality and Literacy", where he quite
extensively (and uncritically) reviews Milman Parry's work on the oral
roots of the Homeric epics. The basic line of argument is that certain
properties of the transmitted texts allow to infer a predominantly oral
origin. I shall not reproduce the quite complex arguments involved, but
would like to ask for opinions on what Ong has to say about the alleged
verbatim oral memorization of the Vedic hymns. 

Ong does not question that there was considerable effort for a verbatim
memorization of these hymns, but doubts that these really *preceded* the
writing down of the texts. He quite heavily laments the state of
research and is particularly critical of Louis Renou, who "does not even
advert to the kinds of questions that arise in the wake of Parry's work"
(p.65).  

Not being a Vedicist, I would now like to know whether there were really
no attempts to do something similar to Parry's work in the field of
Vedic Studies. Are Indologists aware of the kind of reasonings applied
to Homeric epics, are they critical of them, or do they simply not care? 

Let me just add that I work mostly with philosophical Sanskrit texts,
and it seems to me that oral transmission is quite commonly made the
scapegoat for various textual oddities - not only insofar as it
"contaminates" the pristine text itself, but also, insofar as it
interferes with the philosophical integrity of what the text says.
However, the effects of orality, and how orality makes itself "known" or
"shines through" in a written text, are hardly ever specified. 

-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University






From lpatton at emory.edu  Fri Jun  6 18:42:45 1997
From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie L. Patton)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 14:42:45 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030762.23782.13103559314344323539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



The Parry/Lord theory at its most general, implies that it is possible to
tell from the formal properties of certain works (use of lists,
stereotyped formulae, etc) what place writing and orality had in these
works' composition, display and storage. (And composition, display, and
storage are three very different activities.)  Intriguing use of this
general idea in the case of early India can be found in the works of
Cousins (83)  Gathin (92) and Oskar von Hinuber (89,94). 
	Less helpful is the argument by Jack Goody (The Interface Between
the Written and the Oral, 1987, 110-122) about the necessity of writing in
the composition of the Vedas, which has been refuted by a number of
Indologists. 
	In addition to Ong, Goody, Watt, and others, David Olson (1994)
has also recently explained the cognitive and institutional effects of the
presence of writing and printing in the West.  There are many specific
studies on the relationship between compositional technology and its
social and cognitive effects (such as that of Elizabeth Eisenstein on
printing in Europe, C.A. Read on alphabetic [as opposed to pictographic]
literacy in China). 
  	These are excellent case studies of specific variables. It seems to me,
however, that problems come in when one argues that compositional
technology **determines** cognitive and social significance. To claim that
a particular tool or technique of memory or writing will ALWAYS have
certain social and cognitive effects is where one runs into trouble.


Laurie L. Patton
Dept. of Religion
Emory University
Atlanta, GA 30322
FAX: 404-727-7597






From athr at loc.gov  Fri Jun  6 20:56:53 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 16:56:53 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030766.23782.1604968254651507572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think I could have expressed myself more clearly.  I was speculating
(not asserting) that the brahmans did not merely preserve archaisms in the
hymns of the Veda, but continued to use productively a whole earlier stage
of language (without the use of a codified and taught grammar to do so).
In other words, they might have been able to orally compose hymns in a
form of language much older than what they spoke in, and perhaps even the
language of the Brahmanas was older than what they spoke in in everyday
use, but they still were able to produce in it.  It would be rather as if
the singers of the old ballads in the Appalachians were not merely able to
continue using older forms of speech in their songs, but were able to
compose new ballads in Middle English or even Anglo-Saxon.  In other
words, I was speculating, is it possible to preserve an ancient form of
speech in an illiterate society without preserving verbatim the
compositions in that speech?

I seem to recall, but couldn't locate the reference for the life of me,
that some group of Southwest Native Americans uses in some religious
contexts forms of speech that seem radically archaic to the scholar who
studied them in comparison to their regular speech and even to most of
their religious speech.  If so , would it be necessarily a matter of
memorizing verbal formulae, or of retaining an ancient form of speech
fully productively in certain contexts?  

Allen W. Thrasher

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Birgit Kellner wrote:

> The example given by Allen Thrasher (samhitas seemingly represent an
> older form of Sanskrit than brahmanas, but shouldn't, according to
> Lord/Parry/Ong) would deserve a closer look. If we find two texts
> representing different stages of linguistic development side by side in
> writing, the first obvious question is "how did they get there?". Did
> somebody put two independent written texts together, or were the texts
> recited together, in (approximately) the very form that we have them
> now? 
> 
> Preservation of archaisms, that is, linguistic conservativism, has been
> singled out as one important feature of oral transmission, so I'm not
> sure why this would be strange according to Lord/Parry/Ong. That a
> privileged class of "text-producers" handles different linguistic styles
> for different purposes seems quite plausible to me (THIS would be an
> instance of pragmatic factors accounting for the specific character of
> transmitted orality). 






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  7 02:15:43 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 19:15:43 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030770.23782.16135068191665875641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Fri Jun  6 01:24:11 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
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>Date: Fri,  6 Jun 1997 09:22:04 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
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>From: Lars Martin Fosse <l.m.fosse at internet.no>
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Brahman divisions
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>
>>          The only exception of sorts i.e. where people make fun
>>of Brahmins coming from a PLACE as opposed to a SUBSECT seems to
>>be in the case of Kumbakkonam town. The well known "Kumbakkonam
>>business/Kumbakkonam effect " seems to be true of all Brahmin natives 
of 
>>this town irrespective of origin/subsect.
>>Krishna
>
>Excuse me, but this is getting very interesting: What is the well known
>"Kubakkonam business/Kumbakkonam effect"?
>
>Regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse

>
  Aha! The Kumbakkonam effect! The town of Kumbakkonam ,located on the 
Cauvery is known for the intellectual quality of its Brahmins i.e
Srinivasa Ramanujan, the mathematician, M.S.Swaminathan,the agricultural 
scientist and the eminent Dewan-politician Sir Tanjavur Madhava Rau, to 
name a few, are all natives of this place(The last
named gentleman was a distinguished politician of the last century
who manged the unique feat of making it to the dewanship of three 
different Indian states and there are writings by people of the likes of 
Mahatma Gandhi refering very respectfully to the good work done by him 
in various states.) In the last part of the 19th century, the 
localcollege was the pre-eminent educational institution in South India 
and earned the sobriquet " Oxford of South India". But if the Brahmins 
of this town were capable of great intellect, they were equally well 
known for their skill at the art of intrigue. There were any number of 
Kumbakkonamites who went to become DEwans in the native Indian states. 
The writings of quite a few people i.e. S.Y.Krishnaswamy,S.Krishnaswamy 
Iyengar, M.G.Ranade( yes, M.G.Ranade of Bombay), J.Chartres Molony refer 
to the intellectual/intriguing skills of the natives of this town in 
different contexts. 
  I guess that the term "Kumbakkonam effect" is an "extinct"
term now, but if one were to peruse writings, debates originating
in Madras of the 30s and 40s, then one would encounter this term
to describe a situation where there was more than what met the eye
at first sight. I remember this term being used frequently in the
"Indian Review"( edited by the legendary G.A.Natesan).

Krishna


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From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Sat Jun  7 02:08:33 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 21:08:33 -0500
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030769.23782.2444763713782759180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Perhaps I'm just overly looking to take a break from my curent writing,
but the point made below (especially as I'm occupied with Vedic accent and
meter these days)  is quite on the mark (or, to point: "on the
marketing"):: 

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dan Lusthaus wrote:

> One last example: How many of us remember even a single word of any
> textbook we read in third grade? Yet if we hear some meaningless commercial
> jingle from that period, or some song we utterly hated at the time, how
> many of us almost involuntarily begin to sing along and perhaps feel like
> we are meeting up with an old friend? Memory, not ink, fixates texts.
> 
> Dan Lusthaus
> Florida State University

I would append the last line-  Through rhythm, Memory . . . fixates texts.
For it is with meter and accent that deviation is easily revealed, even in
the arrangement, for instance, of the hymns in the family books of the RV.

respectfully,

JR Gardner
University of Iowa
http://vedavid.org






From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Fri Jun  6 17:56:18 1997
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 02:56:18 +0900
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030760.23782.177880628623733911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(1) About pragmatics - (D. Thillaud)
What Parry did was to sit down (presumably), study a lengthy text,
discover certain features and derive, from this discovery, that the text
has oral origins. These features were mainly formulas - formulaic
expressions, grouped around standardized themes ("challenge", "council",
"hero's shield" etc.). From this, he inferred an oral origin of the
written text. What is to be established here is *that* the predominance
of certain stylistic features allows inferences about the originally
oral character of the text in question. Such an inquiry can be applied
to any written text, regardless of its
pragmatics. 

Whether the *literary* genres that we have transmitted, in *writing*,
have different pragmatics is thus immaterial to whether they did or did
not originate in oral "texts". Pragmatics are only relevant to *how* the
process of writing down took place, to *how* the original oral "text"
was memorized, by whom, etc. 

The question about Renou is not whether he was right or wrong, but how
he went about establishing his claims - that is (to repeat), whether he
and other Vedicists ever took Parry's work into account (whether they
subsequently found it inapplicable or not is an entirely different
matter). 


(2) About mnemotechnics and stability of texts (written or oral) - 
one of the difficulties with oral transmission is that verbatim
memorization, that is, stability word for word, is impossible to prove
(or was, before the advent of recording technologies), and, one might
add, not particularly relevant to begin with. Ong refers to research
conducted amongst Serbian Bards. Most of them claimed that they recited
the very same oral text at every single performance. Recording different
performances proved them wrong; there were considerable differences. I
think Ong somewhere gives 60% as the most of reliability that was
attested so far. Methodologically, it is important to note that this
discrepance between perceived stability and proven stability surfaces
only when the oral text is somehow "dis-authenticated", that is,
stabilized by an extraneous medium (be it writing or taping). This is
simply due to the evanescence of sound and the irreproducability of
recitation. Ong illustrates the relevant difference between visual and
the auditory perception with a simple thought-experiment: Take a flow of
images, such as a film. Stop it, and you will still have a single image.
Take, on the other hand, a flow of sounds - stop it, and you have
nothing. The transmission of oral texts can therefore ONLY be
investigated indirectly. The advantage of written texts is not that they
are intrinsically more stable or infallible, but that they are
verifiable - the original and the copy can exist at the same time. This
is simply not the case for the spoken word. (Even the Chinese mentioned
by Dan Lusthaus could only verify the amazing memory of the pundit by
having people write the recitation down. By the way, how slow did he
have to speak so that they could follow him? Or were their writing
skills as fascinating as the pundit's memory? Just wondering)

The example given by Allen Thrasher (samhitas seemingly represent an
older form of Sanskrit than brahmanas, but shouldn't, according to
Lord/Parry/Ong) would deserve a closer look. If we find two texts
representing different stages of linguistic development side by side in
writing, the first obvious question is "how did they get there?". Did
somebody put two independent written texts together, or were the texts
recited together, in (approximately) the very form that we have them
now? 

Preservation of archaisms, that is, linguistic conservativism, has been
singled out as one important feature of oral transmission, so I'm not
sure why this would be strange according to Lord/Parry/Ong. That a
privileged class of "text-producers" handles different linguistic styles
for different purposes seems quite plausible to me (THIS would be an
instance of pragmatic factors accounting for the specific character of
transmitted orality). 

(3) About amazing memories etc. 

Arguments as to why the Indian resisted writing seem to me rather
fruitless. Unless we could provide (written!) records to the effect that
writing was, at an early stage, considered as a horrible disease (along
the lines of Plato), they can only be used polemically by Plato's
present-day followers, but cannot really help us in gaining a better
understanding of the formative processes of the written texts we have to
deal with. I myself am rather sceptical about amazing memory feats of
some legendary past, and would prefer diligent anthropological studies
carried out amongst those communities that, nowadays, are reknown for
their amazing textual memories (Tibetan monks or Dan Lusthaus' Koreans).
Are there any such studies? 




-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University






From thillaud at unice.fr  Sat Jun  7 09:02:47 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 11:02:47 +0200
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030772.23782.13361958111244761197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 20:18 +0200 6/06/97, Birgit Kellner wrote:

>What Parry did ...
>... Such an inquiry can be applied to any written text, regardless of its
>pragmatics.
>... Pragmatics are only relevant to *how* the
>process of writing down took place, to *how* the original oral "text"
>was memorized, by whom, etc.

	We don't talk about the same *pragmatic*. For me, pragmatic is the
others than linguistical effects produced by the talking. When I say: 'I
swear I ...', that's not just a phrase, but an oath. A prayer, too, is not
just a text!
	The importance of exact utterance is absolute and a special priest
(I don't have his name at hand) is charged to detect any error.
	But the job of a bard is to relate the same *story*, not necessarly
with the same *words*. When I was recounting a liked fairy tale to my
children, they accepted many changes (even additions of minor episods) but
NO changes of characters or main story.
	The ritual is not the same thing: your lawyers are (in movies)
everytime saying 'objection!', never 'I don't agree!'.

>The question about Renou is not whether he was right or wrong, but how
>he went about establishing his claims - that is (to repeat), whether he
>and other Vedicists ever took Parry's work into account (whether they
>subsequently found it inapplicable or not is an entirely different
>matter).

	I think that's a professional deformation of many scholars: they
believe they must say absolutely everything about a subject, even
irrelevant. They hope to become THE reference, but they become just
unreadable ...

>(2) About mnemotechnics ...
>(Even the Chinese mentioned
>by Dan Lusthaus could only verify the amazing memory of the pundit by
>having people write the recitation down. By the way, how slow did he
>have to speak so that they could follow him? Or were their writing
                                                            ^^^^^^^
>skills as fascinating as the pundit's memory? Just wondering)

	It seems to me that Dan Lusthaus said *verifying*

>(3) About amazing memories etc.
>I myself am rather sceptical about amazing memory feats of
>some legendary past, and would prefer diligent anthropological studies
>carried out amongst those communities that, nowadays, are reknown for
>their amazing textual memories (Tibetan monks or Dan Lusthaus' Koreans).
>Are there any such studies?

	You underestimate gravely human memory capacities, because they are
actually lost today in all the world (from more than a century, ALL the
bards have received the visit of a scholar with paper or tapes and they are
not stupid). Training the memory is a very hard and long education who
begin at an early age and, for priestes, each prayer is repeated each day,
more than ten years along. Fortunately there is today an other job who
begin at an early age and need an each day training: music. And exist
maestri who can dirige all the Wagner's Ring without a partition and EACH
Heldentenor is able to sing the role of Tristan (a very long TEXT) without
any error. Few years ago I'have seen a very young german tenor with a fine
voice but unable to read a partition, who had learned the Traviata just
hearing it.
	But I suppose if no scholar had make a thesis about that, with an
exemplar in each university library, you'll say me that's not proved ...

	Best regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au  Sat Jun  7 12:57:41 1997
From: sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au (Sugandha Johar)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 12:57:41 +0000
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030776.23782.1212145471092808299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Maharashtra, the 
>Konkanastha community seems to be having a low opinion of just about any 
>subsect....The Shenvi/Gauda Saraswat Brahmins are the descendants of an 
>outcasted Konkanstha youth and a Sudra woman who collected cow dung 
>while the Karhade Brahmin are supposed to be the descended from the 
>carcass of a dead donkey.

This is total news for me. By the way I am a Koaknastha, and for a while
was married to a Deshastha. 

The perjoratives that I do knwo that each of these sub-castes utter about
each other are more in the line of - Kokanasthas being very stingy and
penny pinching, and the Deshasthas having no discipline etc.

And as for the "Cobras" i have not heard the perjorative. Infact, I have
many times (along with a lot of others that i know ) have called myself
Cobra, more as a shorthand than anything else.

Sugandha

[admin note: original date changed from Thu Jan 01 11:00:00 1970]






From YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU  Sat Jun  7 16:57:42 1997
From: YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU (J. Randall Groves)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 12:57:42 -0400
Subject: Epics and Indian Canon
Message-ID: <161227030777.23782.5045919443635956570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists, I apologise in advance if I am becoming a nuisance
with my naive questions about things indological, but I have another
question that is a follow-up on my earlier question concerning
comparisons of Greek and Indian epics. Do the Indian epics function in
later Indian literary history like the Greek epics have functioned? I am
thinking of the canonical line of literature from Homer to Virgil (the
Aeneid) to Dante and so on. Is there a similar one that begins with the
Ramayana and Mahabarata? If so, what would be the canonical texts to
read after the R amayana and Mahabarata?Thanks in advance. Randy Groves,
Associate Prof.  of Humanities, Ferris State University.





From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  7 21:35:23 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 14:35:23 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030779.23782.9385381141640073528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Sat Jun  7 09:18:12 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
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>          with Local-SMTP (PP); Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:17:13 +0100
>Message-Id: 
<3.0.32.19700101120000.006cc624 at postbox.library.usyd.edu.au>
>Date: Sat,  7 Jun 1997 17:17:02 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk


>
>In Maharashtra, the 
>>Konkanastha community seems to be having a low opinion of just about 
any 
>>subsect....The Shenvi/Gauda Saraswat Brahmins are the descendants of 
an 
>>outcasted Konkanstha youth and a Sudra woman who collected cow dung 
>>while the Karhade Brahmin are supposed to be the descended from the 
>>carcass of a dead donkey.
>
>This is total news for me. By the way I am a Koaknastha, and for a 
while
>was married to a Deshastha. 


 Well, I myself didn't know this till a while ago till I happened
to read this in Arthur Crawfords book "Our troubles in the Deccan
and Poona" where he goes into an indepth analysis of the characteristics 
of the locally dominant communities.  He also mentions the fact there 
was a DEsastha Brahmin in the town of Wai who tried to
discredit the Chitpavan community's Brahminness on the basis
of the SAhyadri Khand around 1814. BajiRao II(The last Peshwa)
made life difficult for this man and as a precaution against
further trouble, confisicated as many copies of the SAhyadri
Khand from non-Konkanasthas.
                                  The part about their called
"Cobras" has been mentioned by a quite a few natives of Poona
. The fact that it is contraction of "KOnkanastha BRAhman" 
was mentioned by M. A. Patterson, who has researched  and published
 extensively on the Konkanastha community. She has an interesting
tract on the Poona riots of 1948( after the assasination of Gandhi)
where she mentions this fact. She also quotes the distinguished
economist Dr D.R.GAdgil on the Konkanastha tendency to look down
upon everybody else as being inferior to them- According to Dr Gadgil
, this tendency came from the fact that most Chitpavan Brahmins had
"Khot" rights in villages along the Konkan coast. Given the fact
that they were the local village tax collectors and could objections
from other villagers, they took it for "granted" that they could
assert their superiority in other areas or places.

>
>The perjoratives that I do knwo that each of these sub-castes utter 
about
>each other are more in the line of - Kokanasthas being very stingy 
                                      ---------------------------

Of course, this fact has also been mentioned by many commentators
on Maharashtra and Poona. No less a Konkanastha than Bal Gangadhar
Tilak is quoted as saying that while the Chitpavan/Konkanastha
Brahmins should pride themselves on their frugality, they must learn
from the Desasthas in terms of being charitable. Commenting on the
fact that the Konkanstha contribution to the freedom movement is
completely out of proportion to their numbers, the noted historian
D.D.Kosambi says "All that can be infered from this is that while
a Chitpavan doesn't think twice about sacrificing his life for the 
country, he would think atleast a hundred times even before he opened
his purse.":-) 
 
>penny pinching, and the Deshasthas having no discipline etc.
>
>And as for the "Cobras" i have not heard the perjorative. Infact, I 
have
>many times (along with a lot of others that i know ) have called myself
>Cobra, more as a shorthand than anything else.
>
>Sugandha
>
>
>
>



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From conlon at u.washington.edu  Sat Jun  7 23:49:09 1997
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 16:49:09 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030780.23782.3457616246202548265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Colleagues:

A poster earlier today cited Arthur Crawford's _Our Troubles..._ in
connection with some comments and descriptions of Maharashtra brahmans,
and in particular, the characteristics of Konkanastha or Chitpavan
Brahmans.

May I urge the utmost caution in relying upon Arthur Crawford's
"ethnographic" reportage; along with numberous other British officers,
officials and journalists, the Konkanastha jati was a constant bete noir
for the bulk of the nineteenth and early twentieth century.  Although
Mountstuart Elphinstone's initial policies in the desh following its
conquest in 1818 tended toward conciliation of the previously powerful
elites of the late Maratha raj, by the 1840s the "brahman menace" was
pretty much a set piece of the colonial view of the Maharashtrian scene.

The predominance of brahmans taking up new educational opportunities and
their many leading roles in a variety of public activities during the
period of colonial rule in nineteenth century Maharashtra was explored by
the late Ellen McDonald Gumperz about thirty years back, although
relatively little of her work ever got published.

On an earlier post concerning various bits of "folklore" about the origins
of various brahman castes, I can only report that in sorting through some
of these bits of "folklore" I never found a shred of verifiable historical
evidence.

Frank F. Conlon
Professor of History
Director, South Asia Center
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
Co-editor of H-ASIA
<conlon at u.washington.edu>








From thillaud at unice.fr  Sat Jun  7 15:07:27 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 17:07:27 +0200
Subject: Re to Birgit Kellner
Message-ID: <161227030816.23782.17518717645448513443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Birgit,

	OK, it seems we have two distinct opinions:

	I say it's possible RELIGIOUS texts to be exactly memorized over
centuries without any aid of writing because
	1) I think human memory able to this task in THIS circumstance
because long training, coherent and numerous group, each day utterance and
faith.
	2) I have truth in panditas who say it's true, thinking they have
no reason to lie.
	But I can't travel in the past, I have no proof.

	You say that's dubious because
	1) Religious texts are from this point of view identical to any
other ones.
	2) Human memory is today too weak for such task.
	3) We can suppose a lost method of writing used three millenars ago
by Indians and never revealed by the panditas, because it is very esoteric
perhaps.
	4) Ong say it.
	But you can't travel in the past, you have no proof.

	We are exactly in the UFO problem, then we are totally FREE to
believe what we won't. I'll persist and I suppose you too. That's no
problem, then we can stop the debate.

	Without any animosity,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  8 03:16:36 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 20:16:36 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030784.23782.8410119971136086673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Sat Jun  7 16:54:26 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
mail.liv.ac.uk
>          with Local-SMTP (PP); Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:52:05 +0100
>Message-Id: 
<Pine.OSF.3.95.970607163957.21790C-100000 at saul7.u.washington.edu>
>Date: Sun,  8 Jun 1997 00:51:46 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
>Precedence: bulk
>From: Frank Conlon <conlon at u.washington.edu>
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Brahman divisions
>Colleagues:
>
>A poster earlier today cited Arthur Crawford's _Our Troubles..._ in
>connection with some comments and descriptions of Maharashtra brahmans,
>and in particular, the characteristics of Konkanastha or Chitpavan
>Brahmans.
>
>May I urge the utmost caution in relying upon Arthur Crawford's
>"ethnographic" reportage; along with numberous other British officers,
>officials and journalists, the Konkanastha jati was a constant bete 
noir
>for the bulk of the nineteenth and early twentieth century.  Although
>Mountstuart Elphinstone's initial policies in the desh following its
>conquest in 1818 tended toward conciliation of the previously powerful
>elites of the late Maratha raj, by the 1840s the "brahman menace" was
>pretty much a set piece of the colonial view of the Maharashtrian 
scene.
>
>The predominance of brahmans taking up new educational opportunities 
and
>their many leading roles in a variety of public activities during the
>period of colonial rule in nineteenth century Maharashtra was explored 
by
>the late Ellen McDonald Gumperz about thirty years back, although
>relatively little of her work ever got published.
>
>On an earlier post concerning various bits of "folklore" about the 
origins
>of various brahman castes, I can only report that in sorting through 
some
>of these bits of "folklore" I never found a shred of verifiable 
historical
>evidence.
>
>Frank F. Conlon
>Professor of History
>Director, South Asia Center
>University of Washington
>Seattle, WA 98195
>Co-editor of H-ASIA
><conlon at u.washington.edu>

   I would like to add a point here with respect to Dr Conlons comment
about the authenticity of using Arthur Crawfords work as a reference.
Arthur Crawfords commenting about anybody being dishonest, in my
considered opinion, is akin to Joseph Goebbels or Martin Bormann
lecturing about the importance of Ahimsa. It has been documented by
any number of historians that Crawford himself was a first class
scoundrel( pls do excuse me for using this kind of a word, I am
not sure if I've violated decorum but this IS the most apt way
of describing him). His involvement in the Ratnagiri Saw Mill Scandal
and his intrigues against the Patwardhan states reveal him to be
an intriguer of the same high "quality" as Machiavelli or Tzu Hsi,
the last Chinese empress.
 I  also do realise that the Brits by and large were Anti-Brahman and 
Anti-Konkanastha and came out with the worst stereotypes of the 
Konkansthas. But, isn't this kind of sterotyping that we are essentially 
discussing? When Iyers make fun of Iyengars, or Desasthas make fun of 
Konkansthas, they are essentially STEREOTYPING. All that
Crawford has done is that he has collected all the prevalent
STEREOTYPES in one place and written a chapter about it. In other
words, if one were to research stereotyping among Maharashtrians
, one CANNOT come accross a better starting point than Crawfords book.
His Britishness and inability to understand local sentiment take
away nothing from the value of his tract as far as STEREOTYPING is
concerned. I do realise that Crawfords stuff is NOT good HISTORY, but
it is very good STEREOTYPING( which as I mentioned earlier, is exactly
what we are discussing).
     Before departing, I must say another thing about Crawfords writings 
in the book "Our troubles in the Deccan and Poona". If 
had disparaging things to say about the Konkansthas, he also has
positive things to say about them in the same tract. He says
that they are extremely sharp, brainy and well versed in traditional
lore. He goes onto mention that a very high proportion of the college
students in Poona belong to the Konkanastha community.Anybody familiar 
with Poona would very much agree with all the above mentioned facts. I 
do find his writings very much more balanced than that of other British 
commentators i.e. Monstuart Elphinstone, for example who attributes 
cunning and shallow thoughts ( two seeming antonyms) in the same breath 
while refering to the Konkanastha community. 
  I am not sure if it is the proverbial British sense of fairplay
that prompts Crawford to write about both the *good * and the *bad*
aspects of the Konkansthas, but in conclusion I must say that he
has been more fair to the Brahmins of Poona than many of his brethren.

Krishna



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From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Sat Jun  7 11:17:00 1997
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 20:17:00 +0900
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030774.23782.4686873723331166311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

>         We don't talk about the same *pragmatic*. For me, pragmatic is the
> others than linguistical effects produced by the talking. When I say: 'I
> swear I ...', that's not just a phrase, but an oath. A prayer, too, is not
> just a text!

	Yes, but my whole question was about what to do with certain types of
written texts, and how it can or cannot be established that they existed
as oral texts already for a long time before they were written down. If
you want to discuss pragmatics of spoken prayers, fine, but that's
another thread, cetainly most interesting in itself. (Also, I would not
restrict pragmatics to *spoken* language, but that's also another
thread) 

>         I think that's a professional deformation of many scholars: they
> believe they must say absolutely everything about a subject, even
> irrelevant. They hope to become THE reference, but they become just
> unreadable ...

I don't know what exactly you refer to. I simply asked whether one
scholar, making certain claims, was aware of the work of another one who
worked in a related area. If that's a professional deformation, then I
gladly admit to being deformed. 

> By the way, how slow did he
> >have to speak so that they could follow him? Or were their writing
>                                                             ^^^^^^^
> >skills as fascinating as the pundit's memory? Just wondering)
> 
>         It seems to me that Dan Lusthaus said *verifying*
He did, I got that wrong. 

>         You underestimate gravely human memory capacities, because they are
> actually lost today in all the world (from more than a century, ALL the
> bards have received the visit of a scholar with paper or tapes and they are
> not stupid).

Nobody doubts that some people or groups of people have been shown to
memorize a lot. But if somebody argues that an extremely long text was,
VERBATIM, memorized for generations, on the grounds that, well,
somewhere in human history some people have been known to have amazing
memory, that's a little weak. And I don't think that taking a closer
look at under what conditions people develop such great memories is
irrelevant to the task. 

>         But I suppose if no scholar had make a thesis about that, with an
> exemplar in each university library, you'll say me that's not proved ...

It's a little bit tough when all one's professional (or unprofessional)
deformations are unveiled at once. I think I'll just have to wander off,
listen to a few of my friends' amazing feats of memories, usually
released in states of intoxication, and then draw conclusions about the
oral origins of Hiroshima's phone-book. 

Regards, 

-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  8 03:57:59 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 20:57:59 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030786.23782.6252649010194051645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>
>On an earlier post concerning various bits of "folklore" about the 
origins
>of various brahman castes, I can only report that in sorting through 
some
>of these bits of "folklore" I never found a shred of verifiable 
historical            ----------------------------------------
>evidence.

 Dear Sir,
           May I take the liberty of asking you a question? When
you say that you didn't find a shred of evidence, are you saying
that the facts mentioned by the "Shayadri Khand" are wrong? If
so, I agree with you because the it seems to be a little fictional
to be true. The Konkanastha community themselves were "low
class Brahmins" before the Peshwaai and were mostly employed as
"Harkare"( spies) before Balaji Viswanath became the Peshwa.
The Sahyadri Khand itself mentions that the Konkanasthas were
descended from 7 dead bodies and that these dead bodies were
brought to life by Parashurama and that they acquired the name Chitpavan 
because they were purified(Pavan) by the fire( Chita).
To me personally speaking, all this seems a little far fetched
and I suspect that the writer/writers of the SAhyadri Khand
were more interested in proving that the Chitpavan community
had hoary origins than sticking to facts.
 
            On the other hand, if you mean that I got my facts
wrong as far as the alleged origins of these races are concerned,
I must tell you that I am only quoting other sources, who to
the best of my information, are well informed and know what
they are talking about( with respect to the origins of their community
as well as the Sahyadri Khand) . In addition to
Crawford, who mentions the very doubtful story about Karhadas
being descended from the bones of a donkey, Avinash Pandit,
who wrote an article in the "Illustrated Weekly" about the
Karhada community ( I am refering to the series of articles that
were brought out in the "Illustrated Weekly of India" about various
communities in India from 1970-1974, when Khushwant Singh was the 
editor) also mentions the Sahyadri Khand giving this story about the 
origins of the Karhada community. The only difference is that he refutes 
this story and tells us that the word "Karhada" comes from the word 
"Karad", a town in Southern Maharashtra.
   Since you yourself are an expert on the Gauda Saraswat Brahmin
community,I am sure that you are aware of the fact that Ramakrishna 
Gopal Bhandarkar objected to the fact that Gauda Saraswat Brahmins
had been classified under the heading "Shenvi" and not "Brahmin"
when the Government of Bombay brought about its tract on the 
classification of castes. The fact that some of the Gauda Saraswat
Brahmins were fish eating was repeatedly alluded to by the Chitpavan
Brahmins who thought of them as being inferior to them. I have discussed 
this issue of Gauda Saraswats with a Gauda Saraswat
Brahmin himself( i.e. one of impeccable credentials, his family has
been associated with the Kasi Matha since the last hundred years)
who assures me that the Sahyadri Khand DOES mention the fact that
an outcasted Konkanstha youth and a Shudra woman are responsible for
the origin of the Gauda Saraswat Brahmin race(Neither he nor
 any other GSBs that he knows subscribe to this theory)

Krishna 

>
>Frank F. Conlon
>Professor of History
>Director, South Asia Center
>University of Washington
>Seattle, WA 98195
>Co-editor of H-ASIA
><conlon at u.washington.edu>
>
>
>
>



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun  8 01:56:02 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 97 21:56:02 -0400
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030782.23782.7063780239233699421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Krishna wrote:
>No less a Konkanastha than Bal Gangadhar
>Tilak is quoted as saying that while the Chitpavan/Konkanastha
>Brahmins should pride themselves on their frugality, they must learn
>from the Desasthas in terms of being charitable.

	Being an authentic charitable Deshastha Brahman myself, I can only
agree with the opinion of the great Bal Gangadhar Tilak.
	All the best,
				Madhav Deshpande






From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu  Sun Jun  8 14:59:24 1997
From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 97 07:59:24 -0700
Subject: On history and castes
Message-ID: <161227030789.23782.14209171486908016720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Date: June 8, 1997 
 
Indology List
indology at Liverpool.ac.uk
 
Dear Frank,
 
You wrote:
 

"On an earlier post concerning various bits of
"folklore" about the origins of various brahman castes,
I can only report that in sorting through some of these
bits of "folklore" I never found a shred of verifiable
historical evidence."
 
 
What would be importance for "history" in "historical
evidence" in any case?  For most castes (including
Brahmans) history of their origins is not something for
which "evidence" (meaning independently documented?) is
likely to be obtained in any case.  That is, if you
think of a caste as some sort of physical (biological)
group over time.  
 
But if one thinks of caste as an identity phenomenon,
then couldn't one trace the history of the use of
specific social identity markers? Eg. how the meaning
of such markers change, when they become applied to
whom and by whom with what authority, under what social
conditions, etc.?  Although admittedly it's difficult
to know what group these were originally applied to in
relation to the group which now claims it, one should
be able to see in historically dateable literature
(including inscriptions, etc.) changes in the use of
these markers.  This would be 'history', wouldn't it? 
 
 
Peter J. Claus                        
fax: (510) 704-9636
pclaus at csuhayward.edu







From conlon at u.washington.edu  Sun Jun  8 17:40:50 1997
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 97 10:40:50 -0700
Subject: brahman divisions/identity
Message-ID: <161227030791.23782.5766404603435452487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Krishna asks if I was referring to the dubious authenticity of the
Sahyadri Khanda of the Skanda Purana.  I was.

Peter Claus very perceptively notes the problem of "historical evidence";
and I agree that it is always involving deduction from bits and pieces.
The presence or absence of certain gotras, of certain kuladevatas, and the
like offer some light on the on-going process of social fission and
fusion.  Even affiliations with certain guru-paramparas appear to have
altered over time.  As Burt Stein once observed, however, it seems to be
in noone's interest to effectively document change in a system whose
ideological foundation is changelessness.

On the other hand, I have to appeal to my Sanskritist colleagues for a
view of the Skanda Purana and its various associated texts.  My untutored
sense is that like Skanda himself, the purana is one of many different
faces.   Whatever else one may draw fromthe existence of the Sahyadri
Khanda, it must be comforting to know that its composers were hard at the
task well in advance of the colonial ethnographers who have been endowed
with such agency in "inventing" caste by some recent scholars


Frank Conlon
University of Washington







From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Sun Jun  8 14:39:27 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 97 16:39:27 +0200
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030787.23782.12576342583140813002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Re the influence of writing on the transmission
of the Samaveda, I have read of cases of interference
of writing, in that the musical value of certain
signs in the manuscripts was misinterpreted, which in
turn seems to show that the recitation was learned at
least in some cases from the written down version.

Does anyone know what I am talking about? If true, this
seems to contradict the view the process of transmission
was always exclusively oral, doesn't it?

More generally, if writing played no role in the
transmission, how come there are manuscripts at all?
What was the purpose of writing things down?

On the other hand there do seem to be traditions which
do not use (have never used?) writing at all, for example
Nambudiri Samavedins.









From stone_catend at compuserve.com  Mon Jun  9 04:23:51 1997
From: stone_catend at compuserve.com (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 00:23:51 -0400
Subject: Taittiriya Brahmana
Message-ID: <161227030792.23782.18176557661042692081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone tell me whether there Is an English translation of the
Taittiriya Brahmana?   (If not, it would be a very useful project.)   Is
there any other translation of TB?   And is the text available
electronically ?

Thanks,   Tony Stone





From athr at loc.gov  Mon Jun  9 12:06:44 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 08:06:44 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030794.23782.10936172503997965396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, JR Gardner wrote:
> 
> I would append the last line-  Through rhythm, Memory . . . fixates texts.
> For it is with meter and accent that deviation is easily revealed, even in
> the arrangement, for instance, of the hymns in the family books of the RV.
> 
> respectfully,
> 
> JR Gardner
> University of Iowa
> http://vedavid.org
> 
> 
> 
What do you mean by the last sentence?

Allen Thrasher






From thompson at jlc.net  Mon Jun  9 13:19:06 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 09:19:06 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030797.23782.4661327355250285967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Birgit Kellner has called our attention to an important issue.

I myself have some sympathy for the skepticism which Ong, Finnegan, and
Goody, have expressed re the extravagant claims that have been made for the
fidelity of Vedic tradition. I think that not only Vedic apologists but
Vedic scholars also have been guilty of inflating such claims. On the other
hand. it is clear that these theorists of orality have little real
understanding of the Vedic tradition, and their distinctions between
literate consciousness and oral consciousness are very crude indeed [as I
think a few others have already suggested]. But it has seemed to me that to
some extent the blame for their incomprehension of the Vedic situation is
in fact due to a failure of Vedicists [besides Frits Staal] to participate
fully in the debate re orality, oral composition,formulaics, etc. Perhaps
we can change that.

But besides failing to contribute in any detailed way to contemporary
theories of orality, Vedic studies has also failed to take advantage of the
insights that can be gained from this new field of research. When you take
a look at what contemporary classicists are doing with these theories of
orality, etc., and the new insights into Homer. Hesiod, and the Homeric
hymns, etc., that have been generated by their serious involvement in
orality theory, well, it makes you think that we Vedicists are several
steps behind.

The Ong passage that criticizes Renou should properly be directed at us,
rather than Renou, who did *so much* to advance our understanding of Vedic
poetics and composition, and whose work cited by Ong [the English
translation of EVP 6: 1960] preceded Lord's _Singer of Tales_, and any work
on orality done by Ong himself. Parry & Lord, and following them Ong et al,
tend to confuse two separate issues: oral composition on the one hand and
oral transmission on the other. Dominique Thillaud is right to point out
that compositional techniques that are applicable to the epic genre
[Parry-Lord] need not apply to the hymn-genre of the RV. Renou in fact has
pointed to evidence for both memorization and improvisation in RV
composition, but of course none of the oralists have noticed this.

Vedic presents an important challenge to the orality thesis because it
appears to be a tradition marked by features [linguistic sophistication,
textual fidelity, logic, and even some kind of generalized rationality!]
that the oralists would like to think are the benefits of literacy alone.
Vedic presents a model of how an oral culture *might* gain access to these
benefits in a more or less oral way.

Even if we date the RV conservatively to 1000 BCE [after Rau], I think it
is safe to say that at this level Vedic is purely oral. I see no traces of
literacy in the text of the RV nor any reference to writing [by the way,
can anyone point to the firt ref, to writing in Vedic?]. Are there
objections to this? A study of the formulaic language of these hymns could
contribute to a general theory of oral poetry. I hope to have time for such
a project.

A more vital issue is the transmission of this and other texts, about which
I would be interested in further discussion. Bronkhorst has proposed that
the RV padapATha was indeed written, and that in fact it is "not unlikely
that [it] is the oldest surviving written book of India" [IIJ 24.1982]. I
take this view as generally accepted. Is it? If this view is correct, we
cannot say that the transmission of Vedic texts was purely oral. In this
sense the skepticism of the oralists has been legitimated.

Nevertheless, the extreme elaborateness of Vedic "mnemotechnics" remains a
problem for these oralists. What is its purpose? It would seem to me that
if writing was relied upon in middle Vedic to preserve and fix texts, then
such techniques, such legendary feats of memorization, would have been
superfluous. *Either* writing was dismissed as a business technology
unsuited to "the Vedas," *or* these vikRtis had some other function.

In either case, it seems to me, the possible presence of manuscripts of the
Vedas even as early as 700 BCE, does not eliminate the problem that the
Vedic oral tradition still poses for orality theory. Even if certain
details of his thesis are wrong, I believe that Frits Staal's general point
is valid: the Vedic tradition shows us how an "essentially" [is this
acceptable to all?] oral tradition could have had its own, rather
remarkable, ways of being analytical, linguistically sophisticated,
descriptive, and in some sense perhaps even scientific. I don't think it is
legitimate to confine this kind of intellectual activity  *exclusively* to
literate cultures or contexts.

I hope that those who are well informed about these issues will help out
those of us who are interested in exploring them further.

Best wishes,
George Thompson










From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Mon Jun  9 16:51:45 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 09:51:45 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030801.23782.12644670556785188038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Frank Conlon wrote:

> On the other hand, I have to appeal to my Sanskritist colleagues for a
> view of the Skanda Purana and its various associated texts.  My
untutored
> sense is that like Skanda himself, the purana is one of many different
> faces.   Whatever else one may draw fromthe existence of the Sahyadri
> Khanda, it must be comforting to know that its composers were hard at
> the task well in advance of the colonial ethnographers who have been
> endowed with such agency in "inventing" caste by some recent scholars


As a general note of caution, it is well known among traditional circles
that Skanda Purana and Brahmanda Purana are stock texts to which various
compositions have been added over vast periods of time. Diverse sthala
mAhAtmyas and Puranas are typically assigned to one of these two. Even
among traditional Brahmin communities, not everybody takes the claims of
these texts seriously. 

Some portions of these texts can easily be traced to rivalries between
different groups. These groups can be sub-castes, as in the case of the
Sahyadri Khanda, or they may be rival religious institutions. If one
follows the development of these rivalries, one finds that the opposite
side hotly contests the text. 

For example, a well-respected figure in recent times, Sri
Chandrasekharendra Saraswati of the Kanchi math, quotes from one
Markandeya Samhita of the Brahmanda Purana. However, Sri Jnanananda
Bharati, who was affiliated with the Sringeri math, completely denies that
there even exists something called the Markandeya Samhita in that Purana. 
He says that such a text has not been found in any of the different 
rescensions of that Purana, and cautions that if it is found in the
future, it will very likely be a recent addition written by somebody at
the Kanchi math. This sort of rivalry is generally not well-known outside
a few small groups, and it is hard to find authentic evidence one way or
the other.  

Vidyasankar






From srini at engin.umich.edu  Mon Jun  9 15:02:11 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 11:02:11 -0400
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030799.23782.5574642031325947513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> Aha! The Kumbakkonam effect!

Stuff and nonsense... as a person with strong connections
to Kumbakonam and the overall Tanjore area, let me quote 
N.Raghunathan, the late lead-writer for The Hindu, "Tanjore 
is innocent of any elevations except for those of mind and 
soul". 	;-)

-Srini.





From mani at shasta.Stanford.EDU  Mon Jun  9 22:34:13 1997
From: mani at shasta.Stanford.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 15:34:13 -0700
Subject: Brahman divisions
Message-ID: <161227030811.23782.8760332396516666784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Vidyasankar wrote:

> Such catchy statements express stereotypes among Tamil speakers too.
> examples:
> 
> vaDaman mutti vaishNavan - supposedly most of Ramanuja's original
> followers were vaDamas. 

Actually, this refers to the fact that Ramanuja himself was a Vadama
and converted to strict Vaishnavism.  In doing so, he probably brought
into the movement many other Vadamas, who already tended towards
Vaishnavism in their religious practices.

Many if not the majority of Srivaishnavas and hence Ramanuja's
original followers were at one point "sOzhiya" or pUrvaSikha
brahmins, i.e., they wore their sacred tuft near the center
of their head rather than on the back. sOzhiyas are a different
subgroup from Vadamas.

Speaking of stereotypes of other groups of people, there is
a wonderfully colorful line from Vedanta Desika's "bhagavad dhyAna
sopAnam", a short poem in mandAkrAnta that presents a devotional
description of the image of Ranganatha, the presiding deity of
Srirangam.  When describing the deity's locks of hair curled
under his kirIta, Desika writes, "kupya cOLI vacana kuTilaiH" --
his hair is as crooked as the twisted words of an angry Chola
woman.

Modern Tamils also comment on the sharp-tonguedness of people
from the Chola part of Tamil Nadu.

Mani





From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Mon Jun  9 15:34:24 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 15:34:24 +0000
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030796.23782.11316105099737379320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Two comments to J. Baltuch:
>More generally, if writing played no role in the
>transmission, how come there are manuscripts at all?
>What was the purpose of writing things down?
Is it not so, at least partly, that writing the texts down in written 
form started with commentaries. This has been suggested as the origin of 
several classical DharmazAstra texts.


>On the other hand there do seem to be traditions which
>do not use (have never used?) writing at all, for example
>Nambudiri Samavedins.
Thet learn their Vedas by heart, but in fact they do have manuscripts, 
too, and have had quite a some time (centuries, at least). Nambudiris 
have been literally very active and composed, in addition to works 
belonging to other genres of literature, commentaries to their own Vedic 
texts.






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  9 23:02:02 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 16:02:02 -0700
Subject: KUMBAKKONAM EFFECT
Message-ID: <161227030813.23782.4175635130270472373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This post is rather long! Please bear with me for the inconvenience!

>>> Aha! The Kumbakkonam effect!
>
>Stuff and nonsense

  Aha! I would like to offer the following refrences in order to back
up my arguement and prove that there is "stuff making sense"( as opposed 
to "stuff and nonsense") in what I am trying to convey:-)

1. The following sentences are from "The Man Who Knew Infinity"
( the biography of Srinivasa Ramanujan) by Robert Kanigel published
by Maxwell Macmillan International, 1991)

On Page 17, we find:
"Kumbakkonam was more cosmopolitan than its surroundings, and was a 
center for the work of eye, hand and brain". 

 I realise that he eventually  describes the skills of the craftsmen
of Kumbakkonam, but I submit to you that the same hands that can
weave a sari from silk thread can also fashion a noose out of
sturdy coir:-),:-).
Lest I be accused of sophistry and reading between the lines, let us
pass onto Page 24 of the same book
"In Brahmanically steeped Kumbakkonam, one in five adult males could 
read and write, more than anywhere else in South India with the possible 
exception of Tanjore and Madras itself. Kumbakkonam
                                                 -----------
Brahmins had a taste for philosophical and intellectual enquiry
--------------------------------------------------------------
, a delight in mental exercise that led one English observer to
---------------------------------------------------------------
pronounce them "proverbial for ability and subtlety". (EMPHASIS MINE)
----------------------------------------------------

Please note that this reputation for "subtlety"is restricted to
Kumbakkonam Brahmins alone and doesn't extend to Tanjore, where
educational standards were better.

2. The following quotation is taken from the Marathi book
"MaraThI sattecha utkarSHa" by nyAyamUrti mahAdeva gOvinda
rAnaDe( published by varadA books, puNE, 1995). In the chapter
titled "dakshiN hindusthanAtIl maraThey", he says "kumbhakoN
                                                   ---------
navAchyA baDyA shaharAt prasiddha marAtha gharANyAncha.....
......... He goes on for the next five pages(which is why I
cannot reproduce the whole text:-)) to describe the achievements
and skills of Kumbakkonam Brahmins. I realise that his comments 
were largely restricted to Marathi speaking Brahmins, but it must
be noted that he uses the adjectives "rAjakAryadhurandharattva" and 
"vidvatta" generically i.e. with respect to all Brahmins from
Kumbakkonam.

3. The last quotation is from "History of Andhra Movement"
(Vol 2) compiled by G.V.Subba Rao and published by "The
Committee of History of Andhra Movement"( 1978). On Page 485,
we find under the heading KRISHNA PENNAR:
" The second act of injustice by the Pro-Tamil Madras Ministry
was a veritable "Kumbhakonam", by name the Krishna Pennar
                 -----------
project. Ostensibly, it was said to serve the Rayalseema
people, but was really intended to benefit the Tamil districts
by diverting the Krishna waters to Madras and further South."

  While the first sentence uses the word "Kumbakkonam", the
second line describes what a "Kumbakkonam" is all about.I
would like to remark that the whole text is in English and
NOT Telugu.The original tract was written sometime around March
1947.

 I would like to add at this stage that I can bring up many
more references to back my point but am hampered by the fact that
the University of Michigan library, Ann Arbor( where I live)
functions in a peculiar away. Many *rare* books( read 50%
of the books on Indian history/mythology) are stored at the
Buhr facility which is open only between 8 A.M. and 4:30 P.M i.e.
conventional work hours. Since I cannot  look up references
in the Buhr facility, I am forced to rely on the Harlan HAtcher
Graduate Library, where the number of books available on
"Kumbakkonam" and related topics are very few. I am sure that
I can dig up any no of references to back my statetement had 
it not been for the above stated impediment.
  I would like to quote the musicologist-bereaucrat S.Y.Krishna
swamy on Kumbakkonam( This is from his autobiography:"Memoirs of
a Mediocre Man", I am quoting from memory and may get the wording
wrong): "The people of Kumbakkonam are like the local variety
of mosquito, which is  known for its steady, humming noise
and the intensity with which it bites one in the neck."
  If one were to look up the "Indian REview", it is possible to dig
up a letter from a prominent Kumbakkonam citizen written to G.A.Natesan, 
the editor urging him not to use the word "Kumbakkonam"
while refering to any scandal since it would bring disrepute to the
town.


... as a person with strong connections
>to Kumbakonam and the overall Tanjore area
     --------------------------------------

I do realise that one may be familiar with contemporary Kumbakkonam,
but can one claim familiarity with the state of things, terminology
phraseology and lingo as existed 40 years ago or more? Most people
would recognize India, Bharat or Hindustan but how many would recog
nize the word "Juzr"? Yet, Al Beruni the Arabian traveller refers to
India by this term. Likewise, most Indians would recognize Chinese,
Cheenee or Mandarin as being a language of China. How many of
us would recognize " Po To Hua" as being the same?



let me quote 
>N.Raghunathan, the late lead-writer for The Hindu, "Tanjore 
>is innocent of any elevations except for those of mind and 
>soul". 	;-)

With all due respect to N.Raghunathan ( I am aware of the good
work done by him at the Hindu newspaper....he certainly spoke
and could have outspoken many Eton/Harrow/Oxford/Cambridge
educated Britishers in terms of Victorian English), I must
modify his statement:
Tanjore may be largely innocent of elevations except those of mind and 
soul,
Thank God it has produced only so many a fiend to be sent to the 
goal, :-),:-)
( KEy Words: Mind, Fiend,Soul, Goal)

We must not forget that the same Ramabrahmam and Seetamma of the
Tanjore dist who gave birth to Tyagaraja also gave birth to Japesan,
Tyagarajas bete-noire:-).

To all those involved in the Brahmans-poking-fun-at-each-other thread
, I am begining to realise that I seem to have started on some kind
of a Akhil Bharat Padayatra. After *skirmishing* in MAharashtra,
I've now come south to Kumbakkonam. I am mentally preparing myself
for some gentleman from Bengal throwing a pebble at me after which
somebody from up north can have his/her chance. :-),:-),:-)( Just 
kidding).
              OM SHANTIHI SHANTIHI SHANTIHI
Krishna




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Mon Jun  9 15:10:09 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 18:10:09 +0300
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227030802.23782.13386126197547028589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

Has anyone seen children's arithmetic textbooks which have the numerals in
Urdu characters or Devanagari characters? The ones I have seen all use
western numerals even if the text is in Urdu or Hindi.

Also, has anyone seen any arithmetical signs (plus, minus etc.) used in
textbooks which are not the western variety?

Thanks for the information.

Ruth Schmidt


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Mon Jun  9 17:40:54 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 19:40:54 +0200
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227030804.23782.17818812652696230664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ruth, could you check and see if the lates issue of History of Religion has
arrived? It should contain a review article by Bruce Lincoln on "Classifying
the Universe" by Brian K. Smith. If it is there, could you make a copy of
the review article and bring it here on Wednesday night? 

Sorry to bother you!

LM
XX


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Mon Jun  9 17:51:35 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 19:51:35 +0200
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227030806.23782.8968049853590213104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson:
>Vedic presents an important challenge to the orality thesis because it
>appears to be a tradition marked by features [linguistic sophistication,
>textual fidelity, logic, and even some kind of generalized rationality!]
>that the oralists would like to think are the benefits of literacy alone.
>Vedic presents a model of how an oral culture *might* gain access to these
>benefits in a more or less oral way.

Panini presents the same challenges, except in even more acute ways,
doesn't he? (Since I believe it is generally accepted he was not acquainted
with writing, even though this is not a necessary implication of the form
of the work: Cardano, after all, put his method for solving cubics into
Latin hexameters, so designing a work for oral learning does not imply
necessarily that one has not used writing while composing it)

This is just an invitation to Panini scholars to join in this most
interesting thread :)








From p.magnone at agora.stm.it  Mon Jun  9 18:01:37 1997
From: p.magnone at agora.stm.it (Pinco Pallino)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 20:01:37 +0200
Subject: Soma and fivefold rasa
Message-ID: <161227030808.23782.6898190462576274495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear fellow indologists,


In adhyAya I, 29 of the ViSNudharmottara PurANa the lunar orb is described, among others, as:

zarIriNAM zaroreSu (read: zarIreSu) rasaM paJcAtmakaM smRtam / (5)
AlambakaM kledakaM ca tathA caivAvabodhakaM /
saGghAtakaM tarSakaM ca dehinAM dehagocaram / (6)

Since the numbering appears to span the zloka boundary, the following  half-zloka may also be connected in meaning:

manaH sarvendriyANAM ca sarveSAM nAthamaK tathA.


Does anybody have a hint as to the origin and meaning of this doctrine of soma as fivefold bodily essence: sustaining, moistening, awakening, holding together (?) and appetite-stirring?



Thanks,
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
p.magnone at agora.stm.it






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Mon Jun  9 19:36:06 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 21:36:06 +0200
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227030810.23782.3488913472875434144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry everybody! A private message got to Indology. My apologies.

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in  Tue Jun 10 04:16:28 1997
From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 09:16:28 +0500
Subject: brahmin divisions
Message-ID: <161227030814.23782.6925252430102969573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


My mother tongue is telugu and I am more than 60 years old. I can
vouch for the fact that in spoken (as well as written) telugu
the word "kumbhakONam" is synonymous with "skulduggery" and
"intrigue". Thus a sentences like "He did some kumbhkONam" and
"There is some kumbhakONam in this" mean that "He did some
some skulduggery" and "There is some trickery in this". 
Considering that I know this usage of the word from my childhood
this reputation for kumbhakONam must be quite old. It could be
due to the pilgrims tricked by the priests of KumbhakONam. I 
think one has to go into the origin of this reputation and find
out the exact reasons for such reputation.
 
Sarma.

 







From u.niklas at uni-koeln.de  Tue Jun 10 08:39:39 1997
From: u.niklas at uni-koeln.de (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 10:39:39 +0200
Subject: ATalpaRRu (VEnkata Narayana Sarma)
Message-ID: <161227030818.23782.11315399667364997717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,
thank you very much for your information.
In this case, though, ATalpaRRu refers to adaptations of classical 
(Tamil) texts for the use in "kUttu", i.e. "plays" (in different forms). 
In this very special case, it seems to refer mainly to adaptations of 
KambarAmAyaNa for shadow-puppet-plays (in Central Kerala - that is at 
least, what is given in a remark on one manuscript I have with me ...)

"ATalpaRRu" seems to be a general term for that specific genre of 
folk-literature. - Sorry I was so less explicit in my query: but most of 
the facts given here I learnt by and by after I had sent my query.

Still, I am searching for bibliographical references on theses type of 
texts: has something been written *ABOUT* this genre? Or, are printed 
editions available?

Greetings, ULRIKE

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote:

> On  3 Jun you wrote in Indology list
>  
> >Hello,
> >
> >could anybody help me out with bibliographical data about literature 
> >(original texts, articles, pamphlets, ...) of or about Tamil "ATalpaRRu" 
> >(or: "ATaRpaRRu") - Literature? 
> >
> >With many thanks, ULRIKE
>  
> I do not know whether what I am sending is too trivial to be
> useful to you.
>  
> The word ATalpaRRu represents the name of a village. In Andhra Pradesh
> we have a very large number of villages ending in -paRRu.
>  
> Examples: DOkipaRRu, chATapaRRu, vippaRRu, tADipaRRu etc.
>  
> The prefix ATal can mean games, dances, plays.
>  
> ATalpaRRu can mean village dedicated to plyas or games or dances.
>  
> Sarma.
> 
> 





From efb3 at columbia.edu  Tue Jun 10 16:31:10 1997
From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 12:31:10 -0400
Subject: Madhvacharya's commentary on the Rg.
Message-ID: <161227030824.23782.10781936742156592540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

When I was last in India (1994-1995), Pandurangi Shastri (Bangalore U. and
Dvaita Vedanta Research Foundation) was working with a Ph.D candidate from
somewhere in the States who was translating Madhvacharyas commentary on
the Rg under his guidance.  Does anyone know who this student is (and
perhaps have a contact address for him)?   Thanks,   Edwin Bryant.






From jkcowart at io-online.com  Tue Jun 10 20:10:31 1997
From: jkcowart at io-online.com (jkcowart at io-online.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 13:10:31 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030830.23782.8685638927568672089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology Listmembers:

Our understanding of the human capacity for prodigious 
memorization need not be informed by speculations regarding
the past.  Twentieth century man still retains a remarkable
capacity for almost unbelievable memory performance--when
sufficiently motivated.  American author Truman Capote is a
modern case in point.

While conducting research for his work  _In Cold Blood_, 
Capote was prohibited by prison officials from taking notes or 
making tape recordings of his extensive interviews with the killers 
profiled in the book.  He nonetheless recounted long and detailed
conversations with them in the published work.

Not surprisingly, Capote was challenged by the press with respect
to the accuracy of his reportage.  Expecting this, he issued a 
challenge of his own.  He held a large press conference at which he
provided members of the media with several copies of a New York 
City borough white pages telephone book.  He then asked them to 
open it to any page and begin with any name.

Upon every instance he went on to recite the following ten names,
along with the addresses and phone numbers listed with them.

Knowing the restrictions under which he would be working, Capote 
had trained his memory for the interviews by memorizing the
entire phone book.

Apparently, no one doubted the accuracy of his reported 
conversations after that astonishing demonstration.

If the desire to overcome situational limits in order to produce a 
written work can be sufficient motivation for a memory task like 
Capote's (which involved "sterile" data), then ought we be surprised 
at similar--or greater--feats of memory (involving highly meaningful, 
cadenced, and rhymed word-images) stimulated by religious 
motivations?

The issue is, ultimately, accuracy of transmission across memorizers
over time.  

Inasmuch as it seems unreasonable to ascribe equal zeal to all 
memorizers, it seems reasonable to admit the likelihood of some 
transmission errors.  Cultural changes and migratory factors would 
probably increase this likelihood.

Sincerely,

J. Kingston Cowart
San Diego, California
<jkcowart at io-online.com>





From sohum at convex.cc.uky.edu  Tue Jun 10 17:34:21 1997
From: sohum at convex.cc.uky.edu (SATHAYE AVINASH)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227030826.23782.16152167682296902939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ruth Laila Schmid asked:
> 
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> Has anyone seen children's arithmetic textbooks which have the numerals in
> Urdu characters or Devanagari characters? The ones I have seen all use
> western numerals even if the text is in Urdu or Hindi.
> 
> Also, has anyone seen any arithmetical signs (plus, minus etc.) used in
> textbooks which are not the western variety?
> 

My own textbooks thru high school used Devanagari characters (the
language was Marathi). I imagine, Hindi texts used to be similar!
Some time in the 70's the textbooks seem to have adopted the roman
numerals as the norm for all books regardless of the language.

As far as the signs are concerned, I have not seen any other kind
besides the "western" type. In "classical" books, either there are no
symbols used, or the symbols used in modern commentaries are the
usual "western" kind.


-- 
|Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) |
And now, the next thought is from our CPU ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Do you realize how many holes there could be if people would just take
the time to take the dirt out of them?





From btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net  Tue Jun 10 18:43:51 1997
From: btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net (Birney Titus)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 14:43:51 -0400
Subject: Indian books in print?
Message-ID: <161227030828.23782.1101053174691277589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is there an equivalent of "Books in Print" for India, and if so how can
we get a copy?
Thanks,
-- 
Dr. Birney D. Titus		704 264-0466 (voice)
137 Piney Branch Ct.		704 265-4703 (fax)
Boone, N.C. 28607		btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net






From u.niklas at uni-koeln.de  Tue Jun 10 14:33:38 1997
From: u.niklas at uni-koeln.de (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 16:33:38 +0200
Subject: ATalpaRRu (VEnkata Narayana Sarma)
Message-ID: <161227030821.23782.3743793922271906314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,
thank you for your useful hint.
In fact, ATalpaRRu is ATal+paRRu, hence "concerning dance".
All the best, ULRIKE

On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote:

> Hi... is ATalpaRRu derived from ATal + paRRu or paRRi
> meaning "about or concerning with ATal or kUttu or
> dancing"... in which case what you say makes perfect
> sense.
> 
> In any case, I don't have any direct references...
> I just returned to the library a book called
> "Performing arts of Kerala" photographed by
> Pankaj Shah and edited by Mallika Sarabhai.
> Ahmedabad, India : Mapin Pub. ; Middletown, NJ
> Grantha Corp., 1994.
> 
> It had a small section on this puppet play if I
> am not mistaken. Maybe it has some bibliography
> at the end that would be of help.
> 
> -Srini..
> 





From cssetzer at mum.edu  Tue Jun 10 21:55:49 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 16:55:49 -0500
Subject: Indian books in print?
Message-ID: <161227030831.23782.1346020840897603049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I saw an Indian Books in Print in the University of Iowa library a couple
of days ago. I would expect most large university libraries would have one,
probably back in the order room.

Claude Setzer

----------
> From: Birney Titus <btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Indian books in print?
> Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 2:58 PM
> 
> Is there an equivalent of "Books in Print" for India, and if so how can
> we get a copy?
> Thanks,
> -- 
> Dr. Birney D. Titus		704 264-0466 (voice)
> 137 Piney Branch Ct.		704 265-4703 (fax)
> Boone, N.C. 28607		btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net
> 
> 





From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Tue Jun 10 11:48:00 1997
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 20:48:00 +0900
Subject: Clarification to D. Thillaud
Message-ID: <161227030820.23782.12434555923284033829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

>	OK, it seems we have two distinct opinions:
> 
>         I say it's possible RELIGIOUS texts to be exactly memorized over
> centuries without any aid of writing because
>         1) I think human memory able to this task in THIS circumstance
> because long training, coherent and numerous group, each day utterance and
> faith.
>         2) I have truth in panditas who say it's true, thinking they have
> no reason to lie.
>         But I can't travel in the past, I have no proof.
> 
>         You say that's dubious because
>         1) Religious texts are from this point of view identical to any
> other ones.
>         2) Human memory is today too weak for such task.
>         3) We can suppose a lost method of writing used three millenars ago
> by Indians and never revealed by the panditas, because it is very esoteric
> perhaps.
>         4) Ong say it.
>         But you can't travel in the past, you have no proof.

I am quite surprised about what you think I have written. I have nowhere
expressed such views. Nor have I even claimed to argue for or against
transmission with or without writing. As I might have expressed myself
with insufficient clarity in earlier postings, I'll try to clarify
things in the easiest English that my tired brain can produce at the
moment. 

My question started from the fact, which is indubitable, that we have
written texts of considerable length. These texts exist. Some of these
texts are religious, others are not. Somebody wrote them down at some
point. Some people claim that these texts have been transmitted orally
for a long time before they were written down. Scholars have assumed
that a long period of oral transmission leads to a different kind of
written text than a short one, or no one at all. Oral transmission
leaves its marks. Therefore, there must be some characteristics in the
final written text that can tell us something about whether, and about
how long (in relative terms) the text was transmitted orally before it
was written down. Some scholars have come up with a number of such
characteristics. They have done that for a number of texts which have
nothing to do with India. I simply wanted to know whether the written
Indian texts we have here and now (that they have a lot of variants is
always a given) were ever analyzed in a similar way, and whether people
who do research about these texts think that such an analysis is
possible. 

It's not that we have different views, but that we are taking from
different stages in a process of understanding or research. You appear
to have already formed an opinion. I have not, and therefore neither
agree nor disagree with your views. I am simply trying to obtain
information which may assist me in my process of understanding. It was
for this purpose that I posted my initial query. That's all I have to
say to this. I hope this is clear now. 

Apologies to everyone else for all these misunderstandings,

regards, 
 
-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University






From btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net  Wed Jun 11 01:16:01 1997
From: btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net (Birney Titus)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 21:16:01 -0400
Subject: Indian books in print?
Message-ID: <161227030835.23782.3307126391995877135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

claude setzer wrote:
> 
> I saw an Indian Books in Print in the University of Iowa library a couple
> of days ago. I would expect most large university libraries would have one,
> probably back in the order room.
> 
> Claude Setzer
> 
> ----------
Thanks, Claude!

> > From: Birney Titus <btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net>
> > To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> > Subject: Indian books in print?
> > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 2:58 PM
> >
> > Is there an equivalent of "Books in Print" for India, and if so how can
> > we get a copy?
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > Dr. Birney D. Titus           704 264-0466 (voice)
> > 137 Piney Branch Ct.          704 265-4703 (fax)
> > Boone, N.C. 28607             btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net
> >
> >

-- 
Dr. Birney D. Titus		704 264-0466 (voice)
137 Piney Branch Ct.		704 265-4703 (fax)
Boone, N.C. 28607		btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net







From kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp  Tue Jun 10 14:35:01 1997
From: kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp (kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 23:35:01 +0900
Subject: Q. the position of "sarva"
Message-ID: <161227030823.23782.14138523739394115019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members
I am studying Indian logic, especially inferential formulae.
Troughout my study, a question has arised. It is about the sentences
with "sarva."
That is, whether the next two sentences have the same meaning.
1) "sarva-nominative" A-nominative B-nominative
2) A-nominative "sarva-nominative" B-nominative
In each case, "sarva", A and B have the same grammatical gender, number and
case.
1) can be translated as "All A is B, but can 2) also translated as 1)?
It is important question for me, because both 1) and 2)  are used as a
conditional statement.
If 2) must be translated as "All B is A," the logical relation will also be
conversed.
question.
Best Regards


Yasuhiro Okazaki
613-2 Arima, Chiyoda-cho,
Hiroshima-ken, Japan 731-15
TEL&FAX +81-826-72-8851
Office Hiroshima Prefectual Kabe High School
TEL +81-82-814-2032
E-mail: kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp
           : khb12400 at niftyserve.or.jp






From thillaud at unice.fr  Tue Jun 10 22:07:31 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 00:07:31 +0200
Subject: oral or not ?
Message-ID: <161227030833.23782.16069181987717560638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 14:03 +0200 10/06/97, Birgit Kellner wrote:

>I am quite surprised about what you think I have written. I have nowhere
>expressed such views. Nor have I even claimed to argue for or against
>transmission with or without writing.

	It appears I have actually misunderstanded you.

>My question started from the fact, which is indubitable, that we have
>written texts of considerable length. These texts exist. Some of these
>texts are religious, others are not. Somebody wrote them down at some
>point. Some people claim that these texts have been transmitted orally
>for a long time before they were written down.

	I agree.

>Scholars have assumed
>that a long period of oral transmission leads to a different kind of
>written text than a short one, or no one at all. Oral transmission
>leaves its marks. Therefore, there must be some characteristics in the
>final written text that can tell us something about whether, and about
>how long (in relative terms) the text was transmitted orally before it
>was written down. Some scholars have come up with a number of such
>characteristics. They have done that for a number of texts which have
>nothing to do with India.

	That's right, they have done it. But the problem is the size and
homogeneity of their corpus, both too small. And their analysis of
repetitions, standardized formulas, &c. as mnemotecnics is nothing but an
hypothesis. That can be just a matter of rhetoric: see Shakespeare's
"Honourable men", see RV I, 80 with "arcann anu svarAjyam" and many others.
The true base of their hypothesis is "mnemotecnics are necessary", perhaps
wrong ... (but the story of Truman Capote reported here is a well known
"tour de magie").

>It's not that we have different views, but that we are taking from
>different stages in a process of understanding or research. You appear
>to have already formed an opinion.

	Not already, but until an other one would be more credible by me.
Firstly, I believe using statistics on a text before a stylistic and
pragmatic study is a methodological mistake. Secondly, I'm sure (but
perhaps I'm wrong) that using "cutting and counting" on human productions
is a paranoical behaviour because human productions are never context-free
...

	Best regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jun 11 06:56:40 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 02:56:40 -0400
Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification?
Message-ID: <161227030839.23782.6292246614984635557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Vidyasankar,
Due to unavoidable circumstances, I could not respond to your posting earlier
than this. But you have raised several important issues. I shall try to
address them a few at  a time.

In a message dated 97-05-08 10:00:16 EDT, you write:

 <We already have a name for the syncretic religion that resulted from such
 interplay, don't we? It is called Hinduism! I'm not sure if the word
 tantrification explains or describes anything better than the word
 Hinduization, or Sanskritization, or any of the other terms used by those
 who talk of the Great Tradition and the Little Traditions.>
 
The reason why I think 'tantrification' would help is this. While scholars
might posit two waves of Aryans entering India and interacting with Indus and
other cultures, for most Hindus and even some Sanskritist scholars, Indian
cultural history begins with the Vedas which are 'eternal' and of non-human
origin. The role of the pre-Vedic Aryans (or Aryan speakers) in the Indian
cultural history is not duly recognized. What I was trying to do was
explicitly recognize a two step process of Indo-Aryan interacting with
Dravidian and other cultures in India. 

I was not trying to equate all non-Aryan with Dravidian either. I have always
suspected the complete Dravidianness of the Indus culture if the so-called
'proto-ziva' was an important god there. Considering the relative
non-importance of ziva in the Classical Tamil literature, I believe ziva was
not a Dravidian god even though many Tamils, especially religious Tamil
nationalists, fervently believe that. (I grew up in a milieu of zaivism.)
  Therefore, I believe that ziva was a contribution from some culture other
than Dravidians.

In this connection, the usage of the Tamil word 'maRai' has not been paid
attention to. As far as I know, that is the most-widely used Tamil/Dravidian
word to refer to the Vedas or any scripture. (Other words such as 'kELvi' or
'ezutAk kaRpu' or 'ezutAk kiLavi' etc, are used much less. 'kELvi' means that
which is heard and the latter two terms refer to the oral nature of the
scripture.) In my opinion, the usage of 'maRai' meaning 'secret' must have
possibly preceded the Vedas. It must have meant the 'secret' tantric texts
before it came to be applied to the Vedas in the sense of 'scripture'. Today,
in Tamil, Christian and Islamic scriptures are also referred to by the word
'maRai'. Similarly, 'vEtam' (Veda) also means scripture in general and
Christians are called 'vEtakkArar' in Tirunelveli dialect. There are some
tantalizing clues suggesting this possibility. But before we finalize our
conclusion, one will have to see if all Vedic hymns were thought of as
'secret' texts in the Vedic culture. If not, we consider at the upanishadic
material. Why did they acquire an attribute of secrecy? And was the elevation
of 'rudra' and 'hari' related to this 'secret' culture or just coincidence ?
I hope Vedists may shed some more light on this.

In any case, before I get into other issues raised by you, I want to discuss
some passages from the vETTuvavari section (Chapter 12) of CilappatikAram
related to the worship of 'Goddess'. I think this vETTuvavari section perhaps
has one of the earliest 'Goddess'/Durga worship material. 

"She wears moon as ear-ring. 
She has an eye in the forehead which does not blink.
She has coral mouth and bright smile.
Having eaten poison, her neck is black.
She made the angry snake as the rope and bent the mountain.
She wears the snake with hollow teeth to cover her breasts.
She carries the trident in the hands with bangles.
She covers herself with the skin of the elephant.
She wears the tiger skin around the waist.
Her feet have female-anklet and male anklet which are tinkling.
She is koRRavai with victory arising from her strength  and sharp sword.
She is the female who stood on the head of the asura with two different
physical forms (human body with buffalo head) and muscular shoulders.
She is worshipped by many.
She is amari, kumari, kavuri (Gowri), camari,
cUli, nIli, younger sister of the dark one,
Iyai, ceyyavaL (Lakshmi), the one with sword in hand,
the pAvai (goddess?) riding the leaping stag, pAvai wearing ornaments,
the pAvai of arts/sciences which are studied, and pAvai wearing rare jewelry.
..................

You covered yourself with the elephant skin, wore tiger's skin
and stood on the black head of the forest buffalo.
With the gods worshipping, as the maRai(?) above maRai (Veda)
you stand as the flame of knowledge without shaking.
Carrying a sword in your bangled-hands, you killed Mahisha
and stayed on top of (ride) the stag with twisted horns.
You stand as the light with spreading rays in the hearts of Hari, Hara, and
Brahma.
Holding in your lotus hands the conch and the discus, you stay on top of
(ride) the red-eyed angry bull.
You stand in the form of the part of the one who has the eye on the forehead
and Ganges in the hair, with maRai (?) praising you."

I am not sure if 'maRai' is to be translated as Vedas in all instances. My
feeling is 'tantric' texts could have been meant here in some instances.

In another section of CilappatikAram, a 'maRaiyOn' (brahmin) tells the hero
about the benefits of his "reciting  with concentration the two mantras ,i.e,
the maRai (?) letters, five (pancAkshara) and eight (aSTAkshara) of the rare
maRai (?)". 

Is the sacredness of 'pancAkshara' and 'aSTAkshara' Vedic concept or tantric
concept? That will help us to translate 'maRai' in this passage correctly.

Answers to some of the questions raised here may help us to address other
issues raised by you.


Regards

S. Palaniappan

 






From Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch  Wed Jun 11 06:41:08 1997
From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch (Francois Obrist)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 06:41:08 +0000
Subject: Indian books in print?
Message-ID: <161227030837.23782.842182203902925990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 19:54 10.06.97 BST, you wrote:
>Is there an equivalent of "Books in Print" for India, and if so how can
>we get a copy?
>Thanks,
>-- 
>Dr. Birney D. Titus		704 264-0466 (voice)
>137 Piney Branch Ct.		704 265-4703 (fax)
>Boone, N.C. 28607		btitus at appstate.campus.mci.net

Bonjour, bonsoir,

Une possibilit? parmi d'autres, le catalogue de DK Agencies sur internet a
l'adresse suivante : http://www.dkagencies.com/ ou vous pouvez commander
l'ouvrage ou alors dans n'importe quelle bonne librairie.

DK Number : DK-102150
ISBN : 8185004536
Title : Indian books in print, 1996 : a bibliography of
Indian books published in English language 
Statement of Responsibilty : editor Sher Singh
Imprint : New Delhi : Indian Bibliographies Bureau
Physical Desc. : 3 v. ; 29 cm.
Price : US$300.00 per set.

Ouvrages en d?finitive peu utilises dans notre bibliotheque.
Meilleures salutations
                                Francois
>
>
>
Francois Obrist
Section de langues et civilisations orientales
Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne
CH-1015 Lausanne
e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Jun 11 12:39:52 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 13:39:52 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: controlling INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227030842.23782.670317547506395626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Frank Conlon has kindly pointed out that I gave a wrong instruction in my
message of a week or two ago, when I set out the commands for controlling
INDOLOGY.

To "switch off" INDOLOGY for a while, i.e., while you go on a trip, send
the message 

    set indology mail postpone

to the address 

    listproc at liverpool.ac.uk

I had said "set indology postpone" by mistake.

Sorry everyone!  And thank you Frank.

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Frank Conlon <conlon at u.washington.edu>
To: Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: controlling INDOLOGY

Dominik:

This is a minor point now, although it has created a lot of confusion for
me today.  In your May 22 post, you left out the word "mail" from the
command  of "set indology mail postpone" and had "set indology postpone"
instead.  I tried it with upper case, lower case, even left out set, and
finally asked indology-request for help, but as no one appeared, I went
back and asked for the "help set" document from the list processor, that
was when I realized that the correct posting is

set indology mail postpone.

I'd recommend that you might share that correction with the other indology
members who may think about setting the list for nomail over the summer.

cheers,

Frank

On Thu, 22 May 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> 
> As the volume of INDOLOGY messages rises, and as we contemplate shooting
> off on summer research trips, it is time for a reminder on how to
> unsubscribe, etc.
> 
> All the following commands are meant to be sent as single-line email text
> to the address
> 
>    listproc at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> DO NOT SEND ANY OF THESE COMMANDS TO THE INDOLOGY ADDRESS ITSELF. If you
> do, the message will simply go to 580 people who can't actually help you.
> The "command centre" is listproc.
> 
> 
> To get general help about controlling INDOLOGY, send the single word
> 
>    help
> 
> To get information on the settings that you can control, send 
> 
>   help set
> 
> Some of the more important settings are:
> 
>   set indology postpone       
> 
>   this stops messages until you change the setting again, but leaves your
>   name and details in the list of subscribed members.
> 
>   set indology mail digest
> 
>   this stops the INDOLOGY messages being sent to you as individual pieces
>   of email; instead you get sent a periodical digest, i.e., a clump of
>   messages put together as a little e-magazine, with a table of contents. 
>   These arrive once or twice a week, depending on the volume of messages. 
>   If you don't contribute to INDOLOGY much, but want to monitor the
>   discussion in a general way, this can be the best way to receive
>   INDOLOGY email. 
> 
> 
> To fully drop your membership of INDOLOGY, send
> 
>   unsubscribe indology
> 
> 
> Finally, to ask for help from a human being, send a message to the address
> 
>   indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> instead of to the listproc address.
> 
> These details are repeated for reference on the INDOLOGY web site, so
> those of you with web browsers can check up by looking at 
> <URL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html>
> 
> All the best,
> Dominik
> 
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
> email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
> <URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 







From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Wed Jun 11 21:46:41 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 14:46:41 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030854.23782.163556783775871394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, George Thompson wrote:

> So recitation as a collective effort would seem to function, among other
> things, as a kind of self-correction device, just like the vikRtis, which
> shuffle the sequence of a recitation in order to ring the changes on the
> sandhi and apparently to prevent the accidental loss of of a pada
> ["word-isolate"].
> 

In this context, list members might be interested in the following. There
is going to be a Atirudra yajna conducted in Pennsylvania, USA from August
22 to September 1. Ghanam recitation is a special part of the ritual.
Also, as part of the associated activities, there will be a lecture by S.
Yegnasubramanian of New Jersey on Vedic recitation, the use of vikRtis in
both ritual and non-ritual contexts, and the differences among different
schools. 

The Atirudram is being organized by the Sringeri Vidya Bharati Foundation.
Of the 121 reciters required for the ritual, more than 80 are being flown
in from India. This would be a good opportunity for north American
scholars to see some aspects of vedic recitation in action. Please contact
one of the following for details. 

Dr. S. S. Iyer - 908 238 1119
Dr. S. Yegnasubramanian - 609 530 0299

- Vidyasankar






From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Jun 11 12:31:50 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 15:31:50 +0300
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227030846.23782.11370604970259654278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Avinash Sathaye,

Thank you for the information.
>
Ruth Schmidt

>My own textbooks thru high school used Devanagari characters (the
>language was Marathi). I imagine, Hindi texts used to be similar!
>Some time in the 70's the textbooks seem to have adopted the roman
>numerals as the norm for all books regardless of the language.
>
>As far as the signs are concerned, I have not seen any other kind
>besides the "western" type. In "classical" books, either there are no
>symbols used, or the symbols used in modern commentaries are the
>usual "western" kind.
>



***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no







From silk at wmich.edu  Wed Jun 11 19:32:13 1997
From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 15:32:13 -0400
Subject: Agni
Message-ID: <161227030848.23782.1217510901340516271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the hope that I might be able to squeeze water from a stone, I want to
ask my university to purchase Staal's Agni book and video.  But the on-line
Books in Print says it is out of print.  Is this correct?  How about the
video?  From where could I order it?

Many thanks for the help!

Jonathan Silk
SILK at wmich.edu







From thompson at jlc.net  Wed Jun 11 19:35:48 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 15:35:48 -0400
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030850.23782.13508385864016941678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to J. Kingston Cowart's recent post:
>
>
>If the desire to overcome situational limits in order to produce a
>written work can be sufficient motivation for a memory task like
>Capote's (which involved "sterile" data), then ought we be surprised
>at similar--or greater--feats of memory (involving highly meaningful,
>cadenced, and rhymed word-images) stimulated by religious
>motivations?
>
>The issue is, ultimately, accuracy of transmission across memorizers
>over time.
>
>Inasmuch as it seems unreasonable to ascribe equal zeal to all
>memorizers, it seems reasonable to admit the likelihood of some
>transmission errors.  Cultural changes and migratory factors would
>probably increase this likelihood.
>

Another well-known and rather obvious point may throw some light on Vedic
"realism" when it comes to the fallibility of memory: Vedic recitation was
always a collective affair. A teacher would sit down with a number of
students and they would work their way through a recitation, correcting
each other when necessary. Occasionally a teacher might even stumble or
hesitate, and a student would step in to bridge the gap in the teacher's
memory.

So recitation as a collective effort would seem to function, among other
things, as a kind of self-correction device, just like the vikRtis, which
shuffle the sequence of a recitation in order to ring the changes on the
sandhi and apparently to prevent the accidental loss of of a pada
["word-isolate"].

That's an interesting story about Capote.

Best wishes,
George Thompson







From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Jun 11 12:38:26 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 15:38:26 +0300
Subject: Excuse me
Message-ID: <161227030844.23782.13459251266196558457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please excuse the message to the net, which should have been sent to
Avinash Sathaye.

Ruth Schmidt


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 11 22:56:15 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 15:56:15 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030856.23782.13328056018092450811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



I agree with the gentleman who suggests that oral transmission and
motivation and religion are linked to each other. This seems to be
true of practically all cultures.

As an example, we have Vedic recitation and the related "Akshara
Slokam" competitions. I myself had classmates who could recite whole 
chapters of textbooks. Upon being asked as how they managed this, they 
would insist that this was a result of learning to recite
the  Bhagavadgeeta forwards and backwards when they were children.
In South India, Carnatic music was( and is) still taught as an oral
tradition.This style of music emphasizes Bhakti and it is not uncommon 
to meet people who can remember the lyrics of 150+ Krtis.( Of late there 
has been a profusion of books and other aids, but the traditionalists 
stick to the oral tradition). I must contrast this
tradition with the other tradition of singing "film-songs" or
"love lyrics" or whatever. No musician worth his or her name will
ever sing from memory...A tattered and torn , yellowing note book
( with the lyrics) seems to be a sine qua non, irrespective of
the quality of singing.(I've seen people of the level of  
S.P.Balasubramaniam and K.S.Chitra all the way to our ex-neighbour
sing film-songs the same way;-)).
                                 In addition to Vedic recitation,
learning the Quran ( or atleast portions of it) and reciting the same
from memory is not a feat altogether unknown. I remember that the 
Guiness Book of World REcords officially listed a certain Mehmet
Agca(?) of Istanbul as holding the record for the longest piece
of recitation from memory..He recited 6000+ verses from the Quran in a 
single session. In the Moslem countries i.e. SAudi Arabia, Bahrain
and more recently, Indonesia and Brunei, there are regular competitions 
held on Quranic recitation with emphasis on pronounciation and ofcourse, 
accuracy of reproduction. The Sultan
of Brunei has started encouraging Quranic recitation as a national
passtime as a way of "Preventing corruption of the mind."( This
story was brought out in the "New Yorker" some time ago).
            Likewise, according to the book "Roots", (the story of
Kunta Kinte) we find that in Western Africa, there is a similar
tradition of having a village elder whose main job was to transmit
family history orally( The oral record is supposed to have covered 
people who lived more than 200 years ago). The person conducting the 
recital could apparently go on for hours together and keep track of 
families in different villages simultaneously. From what I remember
of the sociology of this tribe, they also indulge in an attenuated
kind of ancestral worship.
           In conclusion, there seems to be a very strong relation 
between religion and feats of memory.

Krishna
   



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Wed Jun 11 23:26:36 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 18:26:36 -0500
Subject: Oral Tradition and Allen Thrasher's Question
Message-ID: <161227030860.23782.8159910408521878645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am grateful to Allen Thrasher for prompting an extension on the memory
issue with his posting which I append below, and to which I reply directly
after.

On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Allen Thrasher wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, JR Gardner wrote:
> > 
> > I would append the last line-  Through rhythm, Memory . . . fixates texts.
> > For it is with meter and accent that deviation is easily revealed, even in
> > the arrangement, for instance, of the hymns in the family books of the RV.
> > 
> > respectfully,
> > 
> > JR Gardner
> > University of Iowa
> > http://vedavid.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> What do you mean by the last sentence?
> 
> Allen Thrasher
>
It is such a delightfully sublime system of arrangement, and probably
familiar to some list members, it still warrants repeating, here from my
ever-evolving-to-completion current study of the notion of the self in
Vedic India (with some emendations): 

	Within each family book of the RV (2-7) book the first principle
of order is the deity addressed.  Agni precedes Indra, then follows a
variance of deities which varies slightly according to how many hymns are
dedicated to the given deity (Witzel, The Indo-Aryans of South Asia,
Erdosy, ed., 1995: 309).  It varies much more frequently with respect to
which deities are included or excluded by a particular clan (see below). 
Each deity's "collection" is, in turn, ordered in descending order based
upon the number of stanzas in the hymn.  Where the number of stanzas
remains the same, the hymn with a meter containing a greater number of
syllables--e.g. the jagatii with four 12-syllable paadas--takes precedence
over one with fewer syllables--triSTubh with four 11-syllable paadas--in
terms of relative order (:309). --==

This was the reference which I had in mind re. the last sentence which
Allen T. noted.  However, the story becomes more interesting as we move
deeper into the matter.  I'v e just finished a long--gruelling--micro-film
session with a most powerful resource for ANY scholar of the RV-- E.V.
Arnold's  Vedic Meter in Its Historical Development- 1905, 1967 Motilal
re-print.  He provides a humbling 320 pages of dizzying quantitative data
of philological and metrical patterns and deviations across the RV.
Witzel also notes Oldenberg's 1888 findings of how certain hymns can be
identified as a-typical  insertions--even later ones--based upon their
violation of this scheme (1995: 311).

There is certainly more to say on this line alone, but I would be in
danger of digressing from the point in question--at least of contention
among some on the list--that of the relative validity of oral transmission
as regards "accuracy."  Leaving asisde possible cultural weight placed
upon the term "aacuracy" which may or may not be methodologically sound,
it is clear that the arrangement of the early RV books followed a specific
order which, when it is "violated" stands out to the ya evam veda iva
sparshaasahaaN^guSThaH

But the potency of metrics goes further.  This has been engagingly
demonstrated in Elizarenkova's recent volume on the Lanuage and Style of
the Vedic RSis (pp. 107 ff.), Witzel's "Tracing the Vedic Dialects
(Dialectes dans les litte'ratures indo-aryennes, 1989, 97ff.), and in my
current favorite treasure trove, Arnold's 1905 offering.  

I'm not sure if this "proves" the standard of oral credability viz. 
written.  However, it interests me that the previous debates on Brahmi
script evolution here and on--I believe--the Vyakarana list posited a date
for written codification not far removed from the dissapearance or general
scarcity of accented texts.  Prior to this, as Cardona notes in his study
of the bhaaSika accentuation system (Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik,
Band 18, 1993), and Bronkhorst correlates somewhat in 1982, Heft 8/9 (pp.
77 ff), efforts were made to consciously systematize a growing variance in
systems of accentuation (e.g., and this may be a surprise still to some,
ShB marks anudaatta, not udaatta b/c the many variances of treatment of
jatyasvarita &c. had become problematic in the eyes of some). 

All this goes to say that in an oral tradition, the method of recitation
was as much a desicipline as was--if not moreso--the memory of the text. 
We can hardly imagine that the wealth of praatishaakhya's and
padapaaTha's--as well as the VedaaN^ga's and much of PaaNini were simply
augments for retentive few (however much they may be treated as such by
modern scholars) A missplaced syllable would stand out--and still does
(sparking things like publications and dissertations :-)).  And, lest a
semantic rant be generated by my use of the word "mere"-- It has been
noted on more than one occasion that in absence of oral presentation a
vedic text is not at its full potency (Alper's Understanding Mantras, for 
one suggestion).

At least, then, in Vedic terms, the oral tradition is somewhat more
complex than a phone-book (even considering how effective the Capote
example was).  To memorize a text was much more than etching a sequence of
words into the mind, it was a living performance to be brought forth upon
deman according to extremely precise rules.  It is likely that the number
of errors in something like vocabulary are greatly limited by such a
precise metric and accentuation system as cited above.

Respectfully,

jrg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.







From athr at loc.gov  Wed Jun 11 23:16:26 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 19:16:26 -0400
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030858.23782.17838222240072295392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:

> In South India, Carnatic music was( and is) still taught as an oral
> tradition.This style of music emphasizes Bhakti and it is not uncommon 
> to meet people who can remember the lyrics of 150+ Krtis.( Of late there 
> has been a profusion of books and other aids, but the traditionalists 
> stick to the oral tradition). I must contrast this
> tradition with the other tradition of singing "film-songs" or
> "love lyrics" or whatever. No musician worth his or her name will
> ever sing from memory...A tattered and torn , yellowing note book
> ( with the lyrics) seems to be a sine qua non, irrespective of
> the quality of singing.(I've seen people of the level of  
> S.P.Balasubramaniam and K.S.Chitra all the way to our ex-neighbour
> sing film-songs the same way;-)).


Could the behavior of the filmi geet singers be because they have to
produce a much larger  number of songs than the Carnatic classical
musicians, and a lot of them are in many ways very much like each other,
and the audience will not accept 'contamination' of one song by another as
audiences of traditional _folk_ songs will, so they have to rely on the
written or printed word to make sure they get the lyrics word perfect?

If the audiences do want word perfect repetitions, this may be in part
because they have access to printed versions of the lyrics and to audio
recordings, which of course always repeat the same lyrics.

Another feat of memory (not relative to the above particular point),
belongs to an Irish-American traditional accordianist in Chicago I have
heard of.  His practice consists of going through a 3-inch spring binder
of single spaced lists of _names_ of tunes and playing them off.

Finally, on the possibility of the vik.rtis having been devised without
the use of writing, it occurs to me that some evidence for its possibility
may be lent by the children's practice of indulging in various kinds of
regular transposition of syllables or phonemes, in "double-Dutch" or "the
nines" as they were discussed here a month ago.


Allen W. Thrasher

The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.







From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 12 04:39:42 1997
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 21:39:42 -0700
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030862.23782.17668836707576098444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste,

I am a student of Indology and  have recently completed 
a book on the subject, "India?s Contribution to World Culture".

This book will tell you how and why words 
(and the products behind those words) like Cash, Sugar,
Camphor etc., originated from Sanskrit. It is corroborated
in the Oxford Dictionary that the English 
Word "Cash" originated from the Sanskrit  term "Karsha". 

There are 60 to 70 words in the English language that 
originate from Sanskrit. A fact mentioned in the 
Oxford Dictionary.

Other examples of elements of material culture and 
civilization that originated in ancient India and which the world
owes to the genius of ancient Indian scientists and 
inventors include:

- the technique of algorithm used in computer science today.

- the science of algebra.

- the concept of zero - on which ultimately rests the binary code 
which has given us all software including the WWW through which 
you are reading this mail!

- the technique of manufacturing crystal (sugar)cane sugar 
(the word sugar is derived from the Sanskrit term "Shakara").

- the making of camphor (this word is derived from 
the Sanskrit root word "Karpuram" according to the 
Oxford Dictionary.

- the making of tin (the technical English word for tin 
is Cassiterite which is derived from the Sanskrit term 
"Kasthira" according to the Oxford Dictionary).

- The making of dyes like Anline and Indigo 
(the word Indigo comes from the term India and 
the word Anline is derived from the Arabic term 
An Nil which is derived from the Sanskrit term Neelam, 
according to the Oxford dictionary).

- the Gumbaz that we see on mosques all over the world 
originated as the interlocking dome  in the "Stupa" of 
the Buddhist architectural tradition of India.

There are many such instances in the virtually all fields.
Be it civil engineering, architecture, mechanical
engineering, production technology, chemical engineering,
physics, medical science, mathematics, logic, astronomy,
or be it shipbuilding, navigation, the fine arts, etc.
There are evidences that many elements in all these
varied aspects of today's global civilization owe 
their origin to ancient India!!

The arguments marshalled in this book draw from irrefutable
 sources like current western dictionaries, Encyclopedia 
Britannica, observations of ancient Greek, Roman, Persian, 
Arab and Chinese travellers. The advances made by Indians 
in ancient times have been noted and praised by these 
foreign travellers.

This book gives enough convincing material for a 
student of Indian culture to believe that India has 
not always been a nation dependent on other nations,
has not always been ruled by aliens, and has not always
borrowed everything from foreign sources.

For more on this subject visit the site:

http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/

Regards

- Sudheer Birodkar




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From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Wed Jun 11 21:32:22 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 23:32:22 +0200
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030852.23782.438837881671027856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I can't resist the temptation to mention Ray Bradbury' short story
"Fahrenheit 479" here. (It was filmed). It is about a society where
literature is forbidden and books burned (they burn at the temperature
stated above), and where rebellious people learn books by heart and thus
"become" the Republic by Plato, Shakespear's dramas etc. and recite
themselves to each other. 

I wonder if he got the idea from ancient literature. 

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk  Thu Jun 12 09:15:28 1997
From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 10:15:28 +0100
Subject: Agni
Message-ID: <161227030865.23782.6980377794873754315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, jonathan silk wrote:

> In the hope that I might be able to squeeze water from a stone, I want to
> ask my university to purchase Staal's Agni book and video.  But the on-line
> Books in Print says it is out of print.  Is this correct?  How about the
> video?  From where could I order it?

I don't know the current status of the book; the video is still available
(or was about a year ago) from


   University of California Extension
   Center for Media and Independent Learning
   Berkeley, CA 94720
   (510) 642-0460

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html






From thillaud at unice.fr  Thu Jun 12 08:32:14 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 10:32:14 +0200
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030863.23782.17655138580468391640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 6:49 +0200 12/06/97, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>
>- the making of tin (the technical English word for tin
>is Cassiterite which is derived from the Sanskrit term
>"Kasthira" according to the Oxford Dictionary).
>
	That's highly improbable. The Indian word for tin is trapu (AV) and
kastIra, appearing only in lexicography, is borrowed from the Greek
kassiteros (Hom.), perhaps via the Latin cassiterum. According are
Mayrhofer (KEWA) and Chantraine (DELG). (Eurindian common origin is
impossible, the Greek 'k' is palatalized in Sanskrit)

	Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Jun 12 10:09:29 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 11:09:29 +0100
Subject: Centre for India Studies opened at Stony Brook.
Message-ID: <161227030867.23782.18028893310796358344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:51:33 -0400
From: "S.N. Sridhar" <ssridhar at ccmail.sunysb.edu>


CENTER FOR INDIA STUDIES OPENED AT STONY BROOK 

600 Long Islanders cheered April 26, 1997 as India?s Consul General
Harsh Bhasin, inaugurated SUNY- Stony Brook?s Center for India Studies.
President Shirley Strum Kenny hailed the Center, first in the SUNY
system, an extraordinary accomplishment -- a tribute to the Indian
community?s dynamism and commitment.  

Campus Role Model:  In February 1995, 700 students petitioned President
Kenny for courses on India. Then the faculty, led by Professor S. N.
Sridhar, worked with them to design an India Studies Program and
developed new courses, often taught them as overloads, and even sent
payroll deductions. The vision and the team-work of this "Vanar Sena"
paid off  when a Major in South Asian Studies received campus approval
last year.  The India Studies initiative has come to be seen as a model
for others, says Provost Rollin Richmond.  Its success was a catalyst in
establishing a Program in Asian Studies as well.
 
Their Finest Hour : The Indian community pledged $100,000 to the India
Studies Program at a landmark Shanti Fund function last June. Preserving
and transmitting our cultural heritage, removing stereotypes, and
creating a better appreciation of India is a top priority for Indians
and that they are united, active, and generous in its support, says Dr
Azad Anand, who led the effort. Many felt that was our finest hour.

Mission: The Center?s mission is to promote a better understanding of
India by creating opportunities and resources. Its specific goals
include offering courses on India; reforming university curricula;
sponsoring research; endowing a rotating visiting professorship;
organizing study abroad programs; offering weekend courses for Indian
and other Americans; and helping schools, libraries, and museums in
their India outreach. Describing the Center?s intellectual mission,
Professor S.N. Sridhar, the Director, pointed out that the Center seeks
to promote a truly global vision. with resources on India?s rich
cultural and intellectual traditions available at Centers such this,
there is no excuse for myopically discussing ideas as if though
everything began in Greece and reached its apogee in the U.S.," he
declared. "The opening of the Center should signal the opening of
people?s minds toward India.  What is needed is no less than a paradigm
shift in scholarship."  

Accomplishments:  The Center has a library/reading room, multimedia lab,
research and publications unit, a development office, and an office for
visiting scholars, which have begun functioning with start-up funds from
the community and the university.  Students take turns staffing the
Center. "The experience affirms our identity and pride in our heritage,
fosters deep friendships, and teachess valuable community service
skills," says Seema Pradhan, a pre-med student. Starting from almost
nothing, about six India courses are now taught per semester, all
oversubscribed.  Seven courses are planned for this summer.

Projects: ANANYA is a volume on Indian civilization from Indus to INSAT,
with 40 chapters by U.R. Ananthamurthy, Irfan Habib, Robert Hardgrave,
Girish Karnad, M. N. Srinivas, and other authorities. Authoritative,
comprehensive, yet readable, it is edited by S.N. Sridhar and Nirmal
Mattoo, and designed to become a resource for Indian American homes,
school and public libraries, and India courses. The brochure, INDIA?S
PEACEFUL REVOLUTION, portrays pivotal moments of the Independence
revolution through dramatic images, quotations, and narratives.  Both
projects are sponsored by the Association of Indians in America.  

Contact and Support:  The Center is off to a good start, but needs to be
nurtured to maintain the momentum.  To mobilize funding, Dr Anand and
leading community members have founded a Stony Brook India Studies
Foundation.  We welcome your blessings, ideas and suggestions (as well
as tax-deductible contributions payable to the  Center for India
Studies/Stony Brook Foundation). For a beautiful brochure, write CIS,
E5350 Library, SUNYSB, Stony Brook, NY 11794-3386 Call (516) 632-9742;
fax 632-9731; email: indstudy at sunysb.edu   Website:
w.sunysb.edu/indstudy







From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Jun 12 11:50:32 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 12:50:32 +0100
Subject: Astangahrdaya e-text
Message-ID: <161227030868.23782.17903143250868764331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Thanks to the monumental labour and generosity of Prof. R. P. Das and
Prof. R. E. Emmerick, I am now able to announce the free availability of
the machine-readable text of the Astangahrdayasamhita by Vagbhata. 

This classic text of ayurveda, composed in Sind in about AD 600, rapidly
became the defining text for the Indian medical tradition.

The files are
  vagbhata-astangahrdayasamhita.zip
  vagbhata-astangahrdayasamhita.readme

They are available via the INDOLOGY web site
  http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html
or by direct anonymous ftp from
  ftp.ucl.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/texts

There are two versions of the text in the zip file.  One is the raw text,
encoded using the CSX character encoding for transliterated Sanskrit.  The
other is tagged using the conventions of the Text Encoding Initiative
(TEI).  For more on the TEI, see http://www.uic.edu/orgs/tei/.  

I should like to encourage all creators of e-texts to think seriously of
adopting the TEI tagging scheme for the versions of their work which
become public.   This is what the TEI is for, and as a system it works
well, even if it is a bit verbose.  But a text tagged with the TEI scheme
can easily and rapidly be converted for whatever local purpose one may
have.  

May I extend my heartfelt thanks to Das and Emmerick for making this file
publicly available for scholarly use.

Enjoy!
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Jun 12 11:56:57 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 12:56:57 +0100
Subject: Tibetan/LaTeX (forwarded query)
Message-ID: <161227030870.23782.6282724261915491641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


The following message is from someone who needs help compiling the C
pre-processor used for the LaTeX+Tibetan text processing system.  If you
can help, please send your reply not to me (Dominik), nor to INDOLOGY, but
directly to the originator of the query, Angel Munoz
(constisevilla at arrakis.es). 

I confess that I am forwarding this to the list partly because I so
enjoyed the machine translation.  How could I ever hold a grudge against
the groins of anyone so polite?

Dominik


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:40:19 +0200
From: angel mu^?oz <constisevilla at arrakis.es>
To: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Subject: jeff sparkes

I request to her answer to some problems related to their your program
"Latex-tibetan" and "Sirlim":
I have attempted to compile it with "Turbo c ++", and not me has been
possible by giving mistakes, which is the version with the one which was
created, or with which can be compiled?
in which operative systems operates?
there are other versions but recent of these programs?
where I can find them?
forgive my groins, since not I speak it, and this has been translated by
a computer
thank you very much
Angel Mu?oz  (Sevilla-Spain)
constisevilla at arrakis.es







From YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU  Thu Jun 12 17:42:29 1997
From: YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU (J. Randall Groves)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 13:42:29 -0400
Subject: memorization and cosmic order
Message-ID: <161227030871.23782.13254245387316888702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear Indologists: The recent thread over memorization and oral
transmission neglects an importnat aspect of the practice. In Barbara
Holdrege's _Veda and Torah: Transcending the textuality of scripture_,
she argues that "Accurate reproduction of these primal sounds through
periodic recitation and sacrificial preformances is considered essential
for the periodic regeneration and maintenance of the cosminc order....
Conversely, any inaccuracies in either recitation or the sacrificial
ritual are believed to have calamitous effects on the cosmic order."
The upshot is that there was a punishment for inaccurate transmission
of the Vedas. This, of course, doesn't mean that mistakes did not occur,
but it does indicate that people would work hard to get it exactly right
. Randy Groves, Associate Professor of Humanities, Ferris State Univ.




>>
>
>Another well-known and rather obvious point may throw some light on Vedic
>"realism" when it comes to the fallibility of memory: Vedic recitation was
>always a collective affair. A teacher would sit down with a number of
>students and they would work their way through a recitation, correcting
>each other when necessary. Occasionally a teacher might even stumble or
>hesitate, and a student would step in to bridge the gap in the teacher's
>memory.
>
>So recitation as a collective effort would seem to function, among other
>things, as a kind of self-correction device, just like the vikRtis, which
>shuffle the sequence of a recitation in order to ring the changes on the
>sandhi and apparently to prevent the accidental loss of of a pada
>["word-isolate"].
>
>That's an interesting story about Capote.
>
>Best wishes,
>George Thompson
>
>
>





From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 12 20:47:07 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 13:47:07 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030873.23782.15835186967951603741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





 Allen Thrasher writes:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:
>
>> In South India, Carnatic music was( and is) still taught as an oral
>> tradition.This style of music emphasizes Bhakti and it is not 
uncommon 
>> to meet people who can remember the lyrics of 150+ Krtis.( Of late 
there 
>> has been a profusion of books and other aids, but the traditionalists 
>> stick to the oral tradition). I must contrast this
>> tradition with the other tradition of singing "film-songs" or
>> "love lyrics" or whatever. No musician worth his or her name will
>> ever sing from memory...A tattered and torn , yellowing note book
>> ( with the lyrics) seems to be a sine qua non, irrespective of
>> the quality of singing.(I've seen people of the level of  
>> S.P.Balasubramaniam and K.S.Chitra all the way to our ex-neighbour
>> sing film-songs the same way;-)).
>
>
>Could the behavior of the filmi geet singers be because they have to
>produce a much larger  number of songs than the Carnatic classical
>musicians, and a lot of them are in many ways very much like each
 other,                         ----------------------------------



 If repitition of the lyric is what is implied, may I point out that 
this a fairly common phenomenon in  Carnatic music also. William 
Jacksons book on Tyagaraja "Tyagaraja and the renewal of tradition:
translations and reflections" lists a number of cases where Tyagaraja 
uses the same begining phrase in his krti i.e. He starts 4 krtis
with the expression "nenarunchi". If one were to examine the body of the 
krti, then one would  find that "Upacharamulanu" and "Raksha
Pettare"( both in Bhairavi) are  practically paraphrases as far as
the wording is concerned. Musicians like Patnam Subramania Iyer
who were heavily influenced by Tyagaraja repeat some of tyagarajas
pet phrases.
In the case of MuttusvAmi dikshitar, who uses "nAmAvaLi" for his lyric
repitition is but inevitable. Almost all his krtis in the raga nATa use 
the expression 'kAvyanATaka" in order to introduce the name of the raga. 
In the same way, all his krtis in Yamuna Kalyani use the
word "yamuna" in order to introduce the name of the raga.
There is no krti in praise of gaNESa where he has not refered to
gaNESa being the son of pArvati/Siva/both. Likewise there are many
krtis where he uses phrases like "shankara bhaktavashankara"
or "shankari bhaktavashankari"........ad infinitum.

I think that you may have a valid point in terms of the number of lyrics 
that need to be remembered i.e. there are not more than 5000
available krtis in Carnatic music of which 100-200 are heard frequently( 
I am overlooking purandara dAsas claim that he wrote 475000 krtis as 
mentioned in his krti "vAsudEva" in the raga "mukhahari."
Given the profusion of movies and the usual formulae that the songs need 
to follow, I suppose that there are only so many permutations and
combinations that the composer can follow. It also may have to do with 
the fact that most playback singers have to sing in a language that is 
not their mother tongue and run the risk of mispronounciation. As a way 
of preventing mispronounciation, they resort to lyric books so that they 
can pronounce correctly( or hope that they re pronouncing correctly).

Krishna



>
>Allen W. Thrasher
>

>
>
>



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From Sfauthor at aol.com  Fri Jun 13 01:31:43 1997
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 21:31:43 -0400
Subject: Fahrenheit 451
Message-ID: <161227030875.23782.8662545095623623454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I checked my copy of _Fahrenheit 451_, a book of essays written by Bradbury
and two reference books. None of them touch on feats of memory--just the
book-burning theme.


--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com






From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 13 04:34:43 1997
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 21:34:43 -0700
Subject: Astronomy in Ancient India
Message-ID: <161227030878.23782.3971834253635394413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To 

Members of the Indology Fraternity

Hello,

I have done some work on the history of Astronomy in Ancient India. 
Especially on the elements in astronomy today that could have originated 
from ancient India.

I recently visited Jaipur and Delhi in India where in around 1720 AD a 
king by the name Jai Singh has built observatories called the Jantar 
Mantar (which roughtly translate as "Tools and Techniques"). These 
observatories are built using the ancient wisdom and principles which 
have been passed down through ages in India. These principles have been 
enumerated in texts with which you folks might be familar with like the 
Aryabhattiya by Aryabhatta (circa 5th Century AD), Panch-siddhantika by 
Varahamihira (4th Century AD) and many others.

The text Panch-siddhantika (Five Principles) has diagramitically 
depicted how eclipses could be calculated. 

The heliocentric theory of gravitation has also been mentioned in text 
like the Garga Samahita, dated around the 8th century BC. In one of 
these texts (I don't remember which) there is a couplet which says 
"Sarva Dishanaam - Suryaha, Suryaha, Suryaha!" (There are suns to be 
seen on all sides and that when one sun sets, a thousand suns take its 
place. This goes to indicate that in ancient times it was perceived that 
the stars are also suns (and the sun is a star).

I have tried to document, to the best of my ability the references to 
the Heliocentric theory of gravitation, the calulation of eclipses the 
earth's circumference and a few other theories and techniques to be 
found in ancient Indian literature on astronomy. I have published this 
in the form of a monograph under the title "(Ancient) India's 
Contribution to the World's Culture" This covers the developments in 
Astronomy among other sciences in ancient India. More on this is 
available at the site:"http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/"

I am looking for more info especially in the area of ancient 
astronomical tools and the observatories that had been built in 
Mesopotemia, Mesoamerica, Egypt, and China.

I look forward to hearing from you folks.

Regards


Sudheer
------------------
Sudheer Birodkar,
Seeta-Ram Sadan, 
Nandadeep Nagar, 
Goregaon (East), 
Mumbai (Bombay) 400 063. 
INDIA. Tel: +91-22-8733827.

Asatoma_Sad_Gamaya, 
Tamasoma_jyotir_Gamaya.

Lead me from falsehoods to Truth,
And from Ignorance to Enlightenment.


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Jun 13 03:53:55 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 23:53:55 -0400
Subject: What animal does Durga ride?
Message-ID: <161227030876.23782.15696866501328790069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have earlier posted a translation of some passages from CilappatikAram, a
Tamil text from 5th century CE as dated by Western scholars. This particular
section (Chapter 12) may be one of the earliest texts if not the earliest
text detailing the worship of Goddess/Durga.  In this text, KoRRavai (DurgA
in Sanskrit) rides a stag or male deer. In Sanskrit texts, on the other hand,
Durga is supposed to ride a lion or a tiger, I believe. Does anybody know if
Durga rides a stag in any other Indian tradition? Thanks in advance.

Regards

S. Palaniappan





From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu  Fri Jun 13 11:55:01 1997
From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 06:55:01 -0500
Subject: periodical search?
Message-ID: <161227030884.23782.9522593218988687713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Speaking of Indian periodicals: does anyone know of any on-line databases
or search engines for article searches in English-language Indian
periodicals (especially periodicals from the last ten years or so)?

Adi Hastings
Depts. of Anthropology
  and Linguistics
University of Chicago

On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Martin Gansten wrote:

> I know this is a long shot, but I'm trying to get hold of a series of
> articles by G.V. Desani, which are supposed to have appeared in _The
> Illustrated Weekly of India_ some time in the late 60's or early 70's. Would
> anyone out there happen to be a faithful subscriber, or know of a library
> where these issues might be available? (The subject of the articles is
> Nadi-shastra.)
> 
> All tips are most welcome!
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Martin Gansten
> 
> 






From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Fri Jun 13 13:43:12 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 08:43:12 -0500
Subject: Fahrenheit 451
Message-ID: <161227030889.23782.7846477217200858196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Wasn't the "feats of memory" part in the "Twilight Zone" episode based
upon the story?

On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 Sfauthor at aol.com wrote:

> I checked my copy of _Fahrenheit 451_, a book of essays written by Bradbury
> and two reference books. None of them touch on feats of memory--just the
> book-burning theme.
> 
> 
> --------------------
> Brian Dana Akers
> www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
> sfauthor at aol.com
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.







From magier at columbia.edu  Fri Jun 13 12:58:45 1997
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 08:58:45 -0400
Subject: temporary SARAI outage
Message-ID: <161227030886.23782.14411252864241120348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In order to upgrade servers, the web server running SARAI (South Asia
Resource Access on the Internet) at Columbia University will be taken
down today (Friday, 6/13 - unlucky day) from 7:30am to approximately
10:30am New York time.       David Magier





From imj at u.washington.edu  Fri Jun 13 15:59:19 1997
From: imj at u.washington.edu (South Asia Section)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 08:59:19 -0700
Subject: Illustrated Weekly of India
Message-ID: <161227030896.23782.2193481287703065764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The University of Washington Library has the Illustrated weekly of India
from 1942 to the end.  Do you have exact citations or do you need to check
the Guide to Indian periodical literature to find same?

South Asia Section
Irene Joshi, M.L.S.
South Asia Librarian
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, Washington, 98195-2900
U.S.A.
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~souasia/

On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Martin Gansten wrote:

> I know this is a long shot, but I'm trying to get hold of a series of
> articles by G.V. Desani, which are supposed to have appeared in _The
> Illustrated Weekly of India_ some time in the late 60's or early 70's. Would
> anyone out there happen to be a faithful subscriber, or know of a library
> where these issues might be available? (The subject of the articles is
> Nadi-shastra.)
> 
> All tips are most welcome!
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Martin Gansten
> 
> 
> 






From pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu  Fri Jun 13 16:55:20 1997
From: pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Patricia Meredith Greer)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 09:55:20 -0700
Subject: Tamil Reader
Message-ID: <161227030891.23782.10567521618911632144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I have been trying unsuccessfully to contact James Lindholm 
in order to get his Tamil Reader.  The e-mail address I 
have, tlsajml at aol.com, isn't current.  Can anyone help 
either with his proper address or an alternative way to get 
the reader? Thanks!
________________________________
Patricia M. Greer
Department of Religious Studies
Cocke Hall
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22901







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Fri Jun 13 08:01:10 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 10:01:10 +0200
Subject: Fahrenheit 451
Message-ID: <161227030879.23782.17057772886170824917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:41 13.06.97 BST, you wrote:
>I checked my copy of _Fahrenheit 451_, a book of essays written by Bradbury
>and two reference books. None of them touch on feats of memory--just the
>book-burning theme.

That is strange. My reaction was based on the film version, which I saw on
television some years ago. Maybe they made som changes!

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From srini at engin.umich.edu  Fri Jun 13 14:05:50 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 10:05:50 -0400
Subject: Illustrated Weekly of India
Message-ID: <161227030893.23782.14633521229417226860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Our grad library has the following:
_____________________

 Title:          The Illustrated weekly of India
 
 -------------------------------  Location 1  ---------------------------------
 LOCATION:       GRADUATE LIBRARY
 CALL NUMBER:    AP 8 .I268
 
 LIBRARY HAS:    84-113
                 1963-1993
 ITEM STATUS:    v.92 pt.4      Shelved in: PRESERVATION (Non-Circulating)
                 v.112 oct-dec 1991
                                Shelved in: GRAD Folio-Ask at circ, Room 104
                                            (Closed Stacks)
_____________

-Srini.





From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de  Fri Jun 13 08:32:09 1997
From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 10:32:09 +0200
Subject: [Query] Paula Richman
Message-ID: <161227030881.23782.7589416690736312302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Read a while ago that Prof. Paula Richman was working on a monograph 
on the political use of the _raamaayaNa_ in TamilNadu between 1870s 
and 1970s. Is it out?

Thanks and Regards,
Sreenivas

P.S. I am aware of her chapter: EVR's reading of the raamaayaNa,
     in _Many Ramayanas : the diversity of a narrative tradition in 
     South Asia (ed. Paula Richman)  U of California Press, Berkley, 1991.

--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de





From rbunker at franklin.lisco.com  Fri Jun 13 14:45:32 1997
From: rbunker at franklin.lisco.com (Ralph Bunker)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 10:45:32 -0400
Subject: Experiences with D. K. Agencies
Message-ID: <161227030894.23782.299979559670214116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Tina,

In case you missed this. If you can't get on the web site (which seems to
deal with books in English), perhaps you could send e-mail to him.

Glad to hear that you are going to Europe with your daugther. This is the
sort of activity that both of you will be completely natural doing (or you
aren't doing it right.)

>Dear Indologists,
>
>
>Only a few days back I downloaded my messages of Indology and 
>Sasialit as I had not been using my this account for past 
>sometime.  This was so because I was busy with our software for 
>USMARC and my planned trip to the USA to attend to ALA-Annual 
>Conference.
>
>It was a matter of great pleasure and to an extent of pride to be 
>a topic of discussion on "Indology".
>
>My personal deep bows and many thanks on behalf of D. K. Agencies 
>to all those who responded to the email of Jacob Baltuch.
>
>Such comments have always driven us to further improve upon our 
>services.  The new development at DKA after launching "online 
>booksearch" at our website "http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch" 
>is that now we are capable of giving bibliographic data of Indian 
>publications in English language in USMARC format.
>
>For sample data, please visit:
>
>			http://www.dkagencies.com/dkmarc.htm
>
>Option (1) on this page does not work with MS I.E., for which 
>please excuse us.  But we hope the gap will be filled in by 
>option (3) at least for IBM-compatible users.
>
>Jacob, we, at DKA, would also receive with equal enthusiasm the 
>criticisms, if any, received by you directly, as those are always 
>something to learn from.
>
>I request all of you to update your address books to show our 
>email address as: <custserv at dkagencies.com> instead of 
><indbook.dka at axcess.net.in>.  We wish to phase-out the 
><indbook.dka at axcess.net.in> on account of slow transmission speed.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>
>SURYA P. MITTAL
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>From:
>D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
>A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
>Najafgarh Road               E-mail: dka at pobox.com
>New Delhi - 110 059.         E-mail: custserv at dkagencies.com
>
>           Our Webpage     http://www.dkagencies.com
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>






From mgansten at sbbs.se  Fri Jun 13 10:59:38 1997
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 12:59:38 +0200
Subject: Illustrated Weekly of India
Message-ID: <161227030882.23782.5137517903765525218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I know this is a long shot, but I'm trying to get hold of a series of
articles by G.V. Desani, which are supposed to have appeared in _The
Illustrated Weekly of India_ some time in the late 60's or early 70's. Would
anyone out there happen to be a faithful subscriber, or know of a library
where these issues might be available? (The subject of the articles is
Nadi-shastra.)

All tips are most welcome!

Thanks in advance,
Martin Gansten






From pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu  Fri Jun 13 17:11:25 1997
From: pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 13:11:25 -0400
Subject: Illustrated Weekly of India
Message-ID: <161227030897.23782.9912317379187724998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


> 
> The University of Washington Library has the Illustrated weekly of India
> from 1942 to the end.  Do you have exact citations or do you need to check
> the Guide to Indian periodical literature to find same?
> 
> South Asia Section
> Irene Joshi, M.L.S.
> South Asia Librarian
> University of Washington Libraries
> Box 352900
> Seattle, Washington, 98195-2900
> U.S.A.
> http://weber.u.washington.edu/~souasia/
> 
> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Martin Gansten wrote:
> 
> > I know this is a long shot, but I'm trying to get hold of a series of
> > articles by G.V. Desani, which are supposed to have appeared in _The
> > Illustrated Weekly of India_ some time in the late 60's or early 70's. Would
> > anyone out there happen to be a faithful subscriber, or know of a library
> > where these issues might be available? (The subject of the articles is
> > Nadi-shastra.)
> > 
> > All tips are most welcome!
> > 
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Martin Gansten
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 

The University Library of the University of pennsylvania has practical all
the issues from the beginning (?) of publication.

David Nelson, the South Asia Librarian, will take care of the matter, when
you contact him.

Peter Gaeffke





From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Fri Jun 13 22:17:49 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 15:17:49 -0700
Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification?
Message-ID: <161227030907.23782.4744062831375556296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



S. Palaniappa wrote:

> The role of the pre-Vedic Aryans (or Aryan speakers) in the Indian
> cultural history is not duly recognized. What I was trying to do was

Wouldn't that be because of the lack of data about pre-Vedic Aryans? Given
that the earliest piece of evidence is the Rgveda, what indeed can one say
about pre-vedic Aryans in India?

[..]

> In my opinion, the usage of 'maRai' meaning 'secret' must have
> possibly preceded the Vedas. It must have meant the 'secret' tantric texts
> before it came to be applied to the Vedas in the sense of 'scripture'. Today,

Not necessarily so. The upanishads routinely describe themselves as
'guhya', 'gUDha' etc, and caution that their teaching is not to be passed 
on to one who is not a son or a student. Knowing what others do not know
is an exciting part of religious faith. Such a phenomenon keeps recurring
in different forms. Every religious group gravitates to some sort of
secrecy in its teaching, which means that the teaching is accessible only
to some inner circle in its entirety. Less privileged individuals can get
only glimpses of it, and they go away with an impression of great secrecy
attached to it. This is seen as much among modern movements like the
Radhasoami Satsangh as in ancient religions. maRai is then a descriptive
term useful across vast stretches of time - it could have arisen at any
point of time in history, and one has to be careful about dating its
usage.

Vidyasankar






From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Fri Jun 13 22:34:43 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 15:34:43 -0700
Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification?
Message-ID: <161227030905.23782.1330401027629148806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


> Is the sacredness of 'pancAkshara' and 'aSTAkshara' Vedic concept or tantric
> concept? That will help us to translate 'maRai' in this passage correctly.

Sorry about the piecemeal response. This question imposes an extremely
artificial distinction between "Vedic" and "tAntric". Whatever one's own
thoughts on these two terms may be, there is no doubt that the sacredness
of a mantra is very much a Vedic concept. I suspect that many scholarly
conceptions of what it means to be "vedic" stop with the Rgveda. There is
the yajurveda also, you know, which unlike the sAmaveda, does not share a
whole lot of material with the Rg. Both pancAkshara and ashTAkshara
mantras occur in the taittirIya SAkhA of the yajurveda. 

Indeed, a scholar of Indian religion will do well to steer clear of such 
vedic vs. tantric divisions, and call it a "mAntric" concept. Entire
portions of the prAtiSAkhya and brAhmaNa literature concentrate on the
meaning/enunciation of vedic mantras, and in the later schools of Vedic
exegesis, the mantra becomes central to the entire Vedic religion, so
much so that there is no vedic god independent of a mantra. 

Vidyasankar






From jai at mantra.com  Sat Jun 14 02:15:28 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 16:15:28 -1000
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030912.23782.8311288248710432518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The same old north vs. south battle, presently in the form
of Sanskrit vs. Tamil contention, is evident in this thread.
The sad part is that each side often relies on the presumably
inaccurate and unreliable interpretations by foreigners for
support.  I am tempted to propose renaming this list "Bharat-list"
or some such for even the word India is a foreign one.

Jai Maharaj
Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From srini at engin.umich.edu  Fri Jun 13 20:38:52 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 16:38:52 -0400
Subject: Agni
Message-ID: <161227030899.23782.13083297391358450330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

_____________________
In the hope that I might be able to squeeze water from a stone, I want to
ask my university to purchase Staal's Agni book and video.  But the on-line
Books in Print says it is out of print.  Is this correct?  How about the
video?  From where could I order it?

Many thanks for the help!

Jonathan Silk
SILK at wmich.edu
_______________
 
If you do manage to get the book and accompanying audio
tapes for your library,  please tell the library folks
to put a huge "DO NOT THUM" sticker on the audio tapes...
at the U of M, Ann Arbor, the tapes have been rendered
useless by someone at the check-out counter who ran it
thru the machine that sensitizes/desensitizes the labels.

-Srini.





From athr at loc.gov  Fri Jun 13 20:55:40 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 16:55:40 -0400
Subject: Going of leave
Message-ID: <161227030901.23782.15712009402727961152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I will be in Rome June 17-July 21.  In the unlikely event anyone
absolutely needs to get me, my colleague Kohar Rony (aron at loc.gov) or the
Asian division's administrative assistant Bob Lisbeth (rlis at loc.gov) know
how to contact me. 

Ciao,

Allen


Allen W. Thrasher
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
LJ150
101 Independence Ave, S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4814
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax  (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov







From fp7 at columbia.edu  Fri Jun 13 21:44:29 1997
From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 17:44:29 -0400
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030902.23782.14852137190629295267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, J Kingston Cowart wrote:

> 
> While conducting research for his work  _In Cold Blood_, 
> Capote was prohibited by prison officials from taking notes or 
> making tape recordings of his extensive interviews with the killers 
> profiled in the book.  He nonetheless recounted long and detailed
> conversations with them in the published work.
> 
> Not surprisingly, Capote was challenged by the press with respect
> to the accuracy of his reportage.  Expecting this, he issued a 
> challenge of his own.  He held a large press conference at which he
> provided members of the media with several copies of a New York 
> City borough white pages telephone book.  He then asked them to 
> open it to any page and begin with any name.
> 
> Upon every instance he went on to recite the following ten names,
> along with the addresses and phone numbers listed with them.
> 
> Knowing the restrictions under which he would be working, Capote 
> had trained his memory for the interviews by memorizing the
> entire phone book.
> 
> Apparently, no one doubted the accuracy of his reported 
> conversations after that astonishing demonstration.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> J. Kingston Cowart
> San Diego, California
> <jkcowart at io-online.com>
> 

The more I think about this, the more it sounds like a fascinating piece
of urban folklore.  Did it really happen?  If so, when exactly?  Was it
reported in the papers?  If anybody has seen solid evidence of this feat,
I would be grateful to have the reference.  Maybe other Indology people 
would be interested too, since it seems to put Truman Capote many notches
above the Vedic sages in memorization powers.  Just think of all the
metrical and other memorization helps they had, and he had... none (!) ...
And the sheer size and density of our NYC phone books... it boggles the
mind... Maybe Mr. Cowart can give us more information?






From spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in  Fri Jun 13 13:57:20 1997
From: spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 18:57:20 +0500
Subject: Experiences with D. K. Agencies
Message-ID: <161227030888.23782.12233475615709091096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.

                            E-MAIL  TRANSMISSION


Our Ref No.: EME/FI-3123-97                       June 13, 1997


To:
indology at liverpool.ac.uk

Dear Indologists,


Only a few days back I downloaded my messages of Indology and 
Sasialit as I had not been using my this account for past 
sometime.  This was so because I was busy with our software for 
USMARC and my planned trip to the USA to attend to ALA-Annual 
Conference.

It was a matter of great pleasure and to an extent of pride to be 
a topic of discussion on "Indology".

My personal deep bows and many thanks on behalf of D. K. Agencies 
to all those who responded to the email of Jacob Baltuch.

Such comments have always driven us to further improve upon our 
services.  The new development at DKA after launching "online 
booksearch" at our website "http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch" 
is that now we are capable of giving bibliographic data of Indian 
publications in English language in USMARC format.

For sample data, please visit:

			http://www.dkagencies.com/dkmarc.htm

Option (1) on this page does not work with MS I.E., for which 
please excuse us.  But we hope the gap will be filled in by 
option (3) at least for IBM-compatible users.

Jacob, we, at DKA, would also receive with equal enthusiasm the 
criticisms, if any, received by you directly, as those are always 
something to learn from.

I request all of you to update your address books to show our 
email address as: <custserv at dkagencies.com> instead of 
<indbook.dka at axcess.net.in>.  We wish to phase-out the 
<indbook.dka at axcess.net.in> on account of slow transmission speed.

Thanks again,


SURYA P. MITTAL
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.       Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
A/15-17 Mohan Garden         Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
Najafgarh Road               E-mail: dka at pobox.com
New Delhi - 110 059.         E-mail: custserv at dkagencies.com

           Our Webpage     http://www.dkagencies.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 14 03:46:47 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 20:46:47 -0700
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030913.23782.16901644645247351383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





>
>The same old north vs. south battle, presently in the form
>of Sanskrit vs. Tamil contention, is evident in this thread.
>The sad part is that each side often relies on the presumably
>inaccurate and unreliable interpretations by foreigners for
 -------------------------------------------------------                            

 What makes you think that on the average, Indian translators are any 
better than non-Indians?

>support.  
>I am tempted to propose
   And I am gonna oppose;-)


>renaming this list "Bharat-list"
                             ----
>or some such for even the word India is a foreign one. 

Go ahead! The catch then would be the word "list" would still be
English;-),;-)......( or "Angreyzee" if you will!)


Krishna

>Jai Maharaj
>Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
>http://www.flex.com/~jai
>Om Shanti
>
>Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
>
>
>



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl  Fri Jun 13 23:03:20 1997
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 22:03:20 -0100
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030910.23782.8654692931715026386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Replies to msg 12 Jun 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
(sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com)

 sc> It is corroborated
 sc> in the Oxford Dictionary that the English
 sc> Word "Cash" originated from the Sanskrit  term "Karsha".

"Cash" is from the Tamil kaacu, which is an old Dravidian word. In Kannada it
is the cognate kaasu, about which Kittel says (vol. 2 of his Kannada-English
Ditcionary, Madras, 1977, p. 442): "the smallest copper coin, a cash [N.B.!]; a
coin or money in general", and he mentions that the same word "kaasu" exists in
Telugu and Tulu too. Marathi has kaa;su (ibid.). That the word means "coin" can
be seen from an expression like "taamrada kaasu" (a kaasu of copper).

To say that "cash" is derived from Sanskrit kar.sa (which means a particular
measure of gold), and to base this statement on the Oxford English Dictionary,
seems to show that the writer has misread that dictionary. It clearly says
(Compact Edition, vol. 1, p. 347, quoting Yule, i.e. probably Hobson-Jobson)
that the word is "adaption (ultimately) Tamil kaasu ('or perhaps some Konkani
form of it'), name of a small coin, or weight of money." Singhalese kaasi,
which is also mentioned in the Oxford dictionary, has probably been borrowed
from Tamil, just as the Marathi will have been borrowed from Kannada, and it is
unclear why the Sanskrit "karsha" should be mentioned in that entry at all
(unless one wants "cash" to be an Aryan rather than a Dravidian word and
"contribution to modern civilization").

If "ancient India's contribution to modern civilization" is to be judged by the
number of words borrowed into English, then the renowned Hobson-Jobson
Dictionary can provide many more such instances. Does this criterion also imply
that people who do not speak English do not partake of modern civilization? I
hope not.

Robert Zydenbos







From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Sat Jun 14 06:17:47 1997
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 22:17:47 -0800
Subject: indian indology
Message-ID: <161227030918.23782.12804431461563358617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Raffaele Torella asked > are you aware of any studies on indological
research in India during the
last fifty years ?<

One of the good sources is usually the presidential and sectional
presidential addresses delivered at the sessions of the All-India Oriental
Conference. These frequently take into account the indological research
outside India too, but generally the emphasis is on the research work done
in India.

For the Sanskrit-Prakrit side of Indology, much relevant material can be
found in the volumes "Sanskrit Studies inside India" published at the time
of the three World Sanskrit Conferences held in India (1972, New Delhi),
1982 (Varanasi), 1997 (Bangalore).  Those interested in the other side of
the coin may wish to note that these volumes were accompanied by volumes
entitled "Sanskrit Studies outside India."

Another significant source is the many articles and books of the type
"Contribution to Sanskrit/Prakrit/... of region X / religion X / sect X."
Although many of them speak of texts in the languages concerned contributed
by a particular region, religion or sect, they sometimes contain
information on indological research too.

R.N. Dandekar and V. Raghavan have published several articles and booklets
reporting, generally, on indological research outside India. However, since
these scholars were mainly writing for Indian readers, there is frequently
a comparative dimension to what they report and comment on.

See also _Sanskrit and Maharashtra: a Symposium edited by R.N. Dandekar,
Univ of Poona, Poona, 1972.

If I can think of any more focused publications, I will add to this list.

Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of
British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2.







From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl  Sat Jun 14 00:05:00 1997
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 23:05:00 -0100
Subject: [Query] Paula Richman
Message-ID: <161227030908.23782.491824022951190743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Replies to msg 13 Jun 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
(sreeni at ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de)

 sud> Read a while ago that Prof. Paula Richman was working on a
 sud> monograph
 sud> on the political use of the _raamaayaNa_ in TamilNadu
 sud> between 1870s and 1970s. Is it out?

Sie hat eine nur kleine Bemerkung zu dieser Materie gemacht, als sie unlaengst
in einem Tuebinger Symposium ueber Ramayanas sprach. Vielleicht koennten Sie am
besten direkt bei ihr nachfragen:

paula.richman at oberlin.edu


Robert Zydenbos
zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl






From jaybee at tm.net.my  Sat Jun 14 06:35:35 1997
From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 23:35:35 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030956.23782.15314834661701007348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S Krishna wrote:
> 
> >From: Lars Martin Fosse <l.m.fosse at internet.no>
> >To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> >Subject: Re: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
> >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
> >X-Comment: Indology mailing list
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >Mime-Version: 1.0
> >
> >>
> 
> Lars Martin Fosee asks:
> >Any other memory lore out there?
> >
> 	Dear Indologists,
			With reference to the above matter,
	I would like to site two recent, well-documented examples
	of people with phenomenal memory.
			Some people can read once, and remember
	 the whole of what they read.
			But a further advanced talent was the
	talent of remembering whatever was listened to.
			This power was known as
			"Eka Chanda graahyam"

	One of the Eka chanda graahi's was a renowned Tamil poet who
	lived in the last century.
			His name was Maambala Kavi Chingga
	Naavalar, of Palani.
			He lost his eye sight due to smaall pox as
	 an infant. He is said to have been saved by a miracle caused
	by Sri Murugan of Palani Hill.
			He learnt the Tamil alphabet from his father,
	who taught him by writing the letters on his back, while
	pronouncing them.
			Later he was tutored in Tamil grammer and 
	literature which he acquire by merely listening to his teachers.
			He had received the gift of poesy from
	Sri Murugan through an oracle.
			When he was nine years old, Maambalam
	composed his first prabandham literary piece.He also learnt
	Sanskrit.
			He later ,adorned the Aasthaana of
	the Sethupathi of Ramnad and became his royal poet.
			During his stay there, a presentation of a
	literary piece by a certain Visvanaatha Barathi, took place.
			Just before the function, Maambalam
	was insulted by Barathi.Maambalam just remained silent and
	abided his time.
			Barathi submitted the prabandham with a 
	full recitation of all the its one hundred verses.
			At the end of the presentation, Maambalam got up,
	made an objection and claimed that the prabandham was
	originally composed by himself.Barathi had merely stolen it and
	is in the process of presenting it as his own.
			When asked for proof, Maambalam simply
	recited the whole prabandham verbatim from his memory and
	even went to the extent of elucidating the meaning of a few
	verses!
			The flabbergasted Barathi apologised
	and then only, Maambalam disclosed that he had merely
	memorised all the 100 stanzas while they were being recited
	by Barathi and ackowledged that Barathi was the author of the
	prabandham.
			There was another scholar with such a 
	phenomenal mental faculty.
			He was Vandrondan Chettiar of Devakottai.
			He also lived in the last century.
			He was also blind from a very tender age.
			He learned Tamil grammer and literature by merely
	listening. Later, he became a student of the great Tamil
	scholar Maha Vidwan MeenatchiSundaram Pillai of Tiruchchi.
	He knew all the verses of the 12 thiru Murais of the Tamil
	Saivite canon. In addition to this he knew the whole of the 
	Raamaayanam of Kamban,a few puranas, and many other minor works 
by
	heart. He was once present when the recitation of the Periya
	Puraanam was taking place.The reciter made a single mistake in
	one  of the words of the 4000 odd verses of the Periya Puraananm.
	The Chettiar stopped him and pointed out the mistake.
			It is estimated that the Chettiar knew
	at least 200,000 verses of Tamil literature by heart.


	JAYABARATHI

	Sungai Petani
	Malaysia





From torella at axrma.uniroma1.it  Fri Jun 13 23:05:41 1997
From: torella at axrma.uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 00:05:41 +0100
Subject: indian indology
Message-ID: <161227030904.23782.7166534643393325390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members,

are you aware of any studies on indological research in India during the
last fifty years ?

With regards,
Raffaele Torella

Raffaele Torella
Dipartimento di Studi Orientali
Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza"







From srini at engin.umich.edu  Sat Jun 14 04:53:02 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 00:53:02 -0400
Subject: indian indology
Message-ID: <161227030915.23782.16565197539328991583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This looks a brief report
__________
 Author:         Raghavan, V.
 
 Title:          Indological studies in India
 Edition:        <1st ed.>
 
 Published:      Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass <1964>
 Description:    xi, 35 p. 19 cm.
 
_________

Here is another title that may be relevant
____________
 Author:         Seminar on Modernisation of Indological Studies, Gujarat
                   Vidyapith, 1972.
 
 Title:          Concept of indology : papers of the Seminar on Modernisation
                   of Indological Studies, 12, 13 and 14 December 1972
 Edition:        1st ed.
 
 Published:      Amadavad : Dept. of History & Culture, Gujarat Vidyapith,
                   1973.
_______

-Srini.





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Sat Jun 14 04:54:03 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 00:54:03 -0400
Subject: indian indology
Message-ID: <161227030916.23782.8712303319561311992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This looks like a brief report -
__________
 Author:         Raghavan, V.
 
 Title:          Indological studies in India
 Edition:        <1st ed.>
 
 Published:      Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass <1964>
 Description:    xi, 35 p. 19 cm.
 
_________
 
Here is another title that may be relevant
____________
 Author:         Seminar on Modernisation of Indological Studies, Gujarat
                   Vidyapith, 1972.
 
 Title:          Concept of indology : papers of the Seminar on Modernisation
                   of Indological Studies, 12, 13 and 14 December 1972
 Edition:        1st ed.
 
 Published:      Amadavad : Dept. of History & Culture, Gujarat Vidyapith,
                   1973.
_______
 
-Srini.





From jaybee at tm.net.my  Sat Jun 14 12:48:45 1997
From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 05:48:45 -0700
Subject: Propitiating the Planets
Message-ID: <161227031007.23782.17717433300834508765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Martin Gansten wrote:
> 
>  
> This time I wonder if anyone could suggest sources (primary and/or
> secondary) dealing with graha-shanti, i.e., the propitiation of planets as a
> remedial measure against adverse astrological indications -- whether as
> worship of the planetary deities per se, or of such main deities of the
> pantheon as are represented by the planets (the moon = Parvati, etc; I
> believe there are several such lists).

	Dear Sir,
		Off-handedly I can think of two books in the English
	language.

		1.NAVAGRAHAS: A COMPREHENSIVE TEXT 
			      includes legends, myths, Puja-mantras,
		propitiation of planets.

			Dr.K.N.Saraswathi
			Kadalagudi Publications
			38, Nadesayyar Street,
			T.Nagar,
			Madras-17.
			India

		2.REMEDIAL MEASURES IN ASTROLOGY
	
			Dr.Gouri Shankar Kapoor
			Ranjan Publications
			16, Ansari Road,
			Darya Ganj,
			New Delhi-110002.
			India

	I have also seen quite a number of articles on this subject
	in the Astrological Magazine of India.
	They may make available exerpts on request.

			Dr.B.V.Raman
			Raman and Rajeswari Research foundation,
			Sri Rajeswari
			Seshadripuram
			Bangalore - 560020
			India
			Tel. 3348646,369229
			Fax. 3313260

	They have a web-page:
		http://www.indiaexpress.com/astrology.html	
		

 The cult of the Navagrahas, and of
> Saturn/Shani especially, seems to enjoy some importance in many temples,
> notably in the South; has anyone written about it?		
		In fact several books are available on this. Numerous
	articles are a regular feature in magazines. But they are
	all in Tamil.
		Try contacting:

		Tharppaaranyeswarar Temple,
		Thiru Nallaaru.
		Tamilnadu State
		South India.
	
		This is the most famous and important centre for
	Sani.
		Apart from the regular mantras, the Tamils also use
	various other prayoga methods. It depends on what cult a person 
	belongs to.
		Recitation of cerain hymns of Thevaram, reading 
	certain kaandas of Ramayana, ThiruppugaLzh,etc are some of
	the ways resorted to.


	JAYABARATHI

	Sungai Petani
	Malaysia
	




 All pointers to material
> on this and related matters are much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Martin Gansten





From jaybee at tm.net.my  Sat Jun 14 13:09:31 1997
From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 06:09:31 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227031008.23782.1691591436063937430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,
			I beleive I owe Mr. Jacob Baltuch an 
	explanation.

Jacob Baltuch wrote:

>>>        One of the Eka chanda graahi's was a renowned Tamil poet who
>>>        lived in the last century.
>>>                        His name was Maambala Kavi Chingga
>>>        Naavalar, of Palani.
>>>                        He lost his eye sight due to smaall pox as
>>>         an infant. He is said to have been saved by a miracle caused
>>>        by Sri Murugan of Palani Hill.
>>>                        He learnt the Tamil alphabet from his father,
>>>        who taught him by writing the letters on his back, while
>>>        pronouncing them.
>>
>>I'm not sure what purpose learning the shape of the letters could
>>have, since he was blind.
>>
>        The poet Maambalam developed a beautiful hand-writing.
>	There are several manuscripts which have been written by
>	 Maambalam himself.It is hard to believe. But its there
>	with his descendants.
>
>
>	>I guess this kind of story don't worry to hard about making 	sense.
>
>        This line can be misunderstood. But it probably is not what you 	really meant to say.
>>
>>Also, I think I have some disagreement with you as to what "well
>>documented" means. Well-documented does *not* mean to me that lots
>>of people are repeating the story uncritically, which is what it
>>seems to mean to you.
>        
>        When I said well-documented I had the following in mind.
>        Please read on....
>
>        
>
>	The incidents are occurances of the recent past.
>
>	The presentation of the prabandham took place during the
>	period 1862 -1873A.D.It happened in the presence of many
>	people of high esteem.The royalty of Ramnad Zamindaari was
>	 present, as were may notable poets and scholars of the day.
>	Some of them in later days have written about this phenomenal 		feat of	Maambalam; among them, no less a personnage than Divan
>	Ponnusamy Thevar of Ramnad.
>	
>	I have written the episode from from the biography of
>	Maambalam, found in the following sources:
>
>		1.Thaqmilzh Pulavar Varisai
>		  Vol.4 - Pages 108 - 113
>		  Author: S.A.Ramasamay Pulavar
>		  Published by The South India Saiva Siddhantha	
>			     Works Publishing Society
>		  1953
>
>	This is a compilation of the biographies of all the later
>	Tamil Poets.
>	The above mentioned publishing house is an institute of 
>	great reputation.
>		
>		2.Palani Maambalam
>		  Swami Saravanabavananda
>		  Poongodi Publishers
>		  1987
>
>	Maambalam also had his own share of rivals and enemies
>	in his time.None of them have so far refuted this incidence.
>
>	B. Vandrondan Chettiar:
>		 
>		Died 28th June,1882
>		The particulars are taken from:
>
>		1. Thamilzh Pulavar Varisai
>		   Vol.11 - pages 92 - 103
>		   Publisher: same as #1 above
>
>		2. Biography of Mahavidvaan
>			      Meenatchisundaram Pillai of 
>			      Tiruchchi
>		   Part 1 - pages 292 - 294
>		   Part 2 - pages 114,127,176,184,197,299		
>		
>		   Author: Maha Mahopaadyaaya
>			 Daakshinaadya Kalaa Nidhi
>			 Dr. U.V.Saminaatha Ayyar
>				("Thamilzh Thaaththaa")
>			 First Published by Ayyar himself
>			 1938
>			 Latest Edition: Tamil University
>				       Tanjavur
>				       Tamilnadu
>				       India
>			 1986
>
>	Chettiar was a one time co-student with Ayyar.
>	The descendants of Chettiar are prosperous businessmen
>	from Devakottai.
>
>	I really appreciate the way that you look at things.
>	I agree that we must have a rationalistic approach.
>
>	For further information, has anyone heard of the
>	faculties of Ashtaavadhaanam and Sodasaavadhaam?	
>
>	This again is a mental faculty.
>
>	JAYABARATHI
>
>	Sungai Petani
>	Malaysia   
>					
>		
>>
>>Note I'm not completely skeptical about stories of incredible memories.
>>Simply that the myth vs. truth ratio in those stories is probably
>>something like 10 to 1. But the 10th that's left that's probably
>>true is still often amazing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>





From jai at mantra.com  Sat Jun 14 17:07:49 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 07:07:49 -1000
Subject: "Hindu" (Was: Re: Ancient India's Contribtuion...)
Message-ID: <161227030936.23782.5132812611790421990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste! At 9:13 a.m. BST on 6/14/97, Dominique.Thillaud wrote:
> . . . Incidentally, India is not strictly a *foreign* word:
> the ancient  greek words 'India', 'indikos' come probably 
> from sindhu or apparented forms.

An excerpt is now offered:

"'HINDU' DOES NOT COME FROM 'SINDHU'

   "How many times have you explained that the name
of your religion is a concoction invented by the
Persians who called the people who lived beyond the
Sindhu Reiver "Hindus," mispronouncing the "S"?

    "Recant.

   "A. Krishna Kumar of Hyderabad, India, explains.
'This [Sindhu/Hindu] view is untenable since Indians
at that time enviably ranked highest in the world in
terms of civilization and wealth would not have been
without a name.  They were not the unknown aborigines
waiting to be discovered, identified and Christened
by foreigners.'

   "He cites a more solid argument from the book
Self-Government in India by N. B. Pavgee, published
in 1912.  The author tells of an old Swami and
Sanskrit scholar Mangal Nathji, who found an ancient
Puran known as Brihannaradi in the Sham village,
Hoshiarpur, Punjab.  It contained the verse:

 "HIMALAYAM SAMARABHYA YAVAT BINDUSAROVARAM
 HINDUSTHANAMITI QYATAM HI ANTARAKSHARAYOGATAH

  "Kumar translates it as:

   "'The country lying between the Himalayan mountain
and Bindu Sarovara (Cape Comorin sea) is known as
Hindusthan by combination of the first letter "hi" of
"Himalaya" and the last compound letter "ndu" of the
word "Bindu."'"

SOURCE: Hinduism Today, April 1992. 

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From gldnreef at primenet.com  Sat Jun 14 15:23:17 1997
From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 08:23:17 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030933.23782.6083720099369046538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:07 AM 6/14/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>As for music: Mozart reportedly heard a mass in the Vatican that was treated
>as a "trade secret", so that the notes were not available to the public.
>Mozart went home after hearing the mass and wrote it all down from memory.
>He went back the next day to hear it once more, and discovered to his
>chagrin that he had gotten one note wrong!
>
To be a be a bit of a pedant, this myth about Mozart is not entirely true.
During, I think, the lenten Penetential Mass, the beautiful __Miserere__ of
Gregorio Allegri was performed in the Sistene Chapel.  This agnst-ridden
music brought many to tears and even swooning, as I think John Ruskin
reported.  For this reason since the C. XVII the Vatican never released the
score. The gorgeous simplicity of the piece made this example of Mozart's
memory less impressive than some others.  Because of the repeats in the
music, Mozart could not have made the mistake of one note.  I have heard
many stories of "feats of memory," they often rely on the missing of one
letter, forgetting one note.
I think this is because it makes us think of the vast number of particulars
that are really the result of memorizing the form.  The __Miserere__ is
essentially a I-V cadence, a missing note would not make sense.  I don't
think the example of Truman Capote's photographic memory is comparable to
the memorization of musical or poetic forms.  As anyone who has memorized a
piece of music or a long poem knows, the joy, satisfaction, and accuracy of
performace comes from the understanding of the text as a whole -- like
spho.ta theory in a sense.  Why else would we have vyaakara.na from such an
early period, but to memorize _forms_ as illustrated in the story about
B.rhaspati in the Mahaabhaa.sya?






From thillaud at unice.fr  Sat Jun 14 08:06:19 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 10:06:19 +0200
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030919.23782.8689528883911102139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 4:24 +0200 14/06/97, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>The same old north vs. south battle, presently in the form
>of Sanskrit vs. Tamil contention, is evident in this thread.
>The sad part is that each side often relies on the presumably
>inaccurate and unreliable interpretations by foreigners for
>support.  I am tempted to propose renaming this list "Bharat-list"
>or some such for even the word India is a foreign one.

	Some nationalistic trouble ?

	What do you mean about:
hyperonym: German
hyponyms: allemand, tedesco, deutsch, English, Britannic, French, graecus
colonial: America, Australia, New Zealand
	&c., &c.

	Are you really sure that Bharat is better than India for *all*
Indian peoples ? Are you sure that xenophoby is the best way to go in the
world ?

	Nationalistic etymologies are very easy, for example (I'm French):
	cash < lat. capsa (fr. cha^sse, it. cassa) via the 'normand' french
dialect where the 'ka' is not palatalized.
	Better for the glorious France, isn't it ?

	Incidentally, India is not strictly a *foreign* word: the ancient
greek words 'India', 'indikos' come probably from sindhu or apparented
forms.

	Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sat Jun 14 08:59:10 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 10:59:10 +0200
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030921.23782.9262152477337404136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>The more I think about this, the more it sounds like a fascinating piece
>of urban folklore.  Did it really happen?  If so, when exactly?  Was it
>reported in the papers?  If anybody has seen solid evidence of this feat,
>I would be grateful to have the reference.  Maybe other Indology people 
>would be interested too, since it seems to put Truman Capote many notches
>above the Vedic sages in memorization powers.  Just think of all the
>metrical and other memorization helps they had, and he had... none (!) ...
>And the sheer size and density of our NYC phone books... it boggles the
>mind... Maybe Mr. Cowart can give us more information?

I think there is such a thing as photographic memory. Similar feats of
memorization were related about the Norwegian historian P. A. Munch (last
century), who allegedly got access to papers in the Vatican, but was not
allowed to copy them. Whereupon he learnt them by heart and copied them back
in his hotel room. He was also reportedly able to remember page upon page of
ordinary novels he had read in his youth. I discussed this phenomenon with a
psychologist, who said that the problem with such people was that they could
never forget anything, and therefore had various psychological discomforts.
As for music: Mozart reportedly heard a mass in the Vatican that was treated
as a "trade secret", so that the notes were not available to the public.
Mozart went home after hearing the mass and wrote it all down from memory.
He went back the next day to hear it once more, and discovered to his
chagrin that he had gotten one note wrong!

Any other memory lore out there?

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Sat Jun 14 09:12:41 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 11:12:41 +0200
Subject: memory feats?
Message-ID: <161227030923.23782.3270286303651445354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't know anything about T.Capote's magic trick
but I'm sure a much likelier explanation for it is
that he used a few acolytes posing as journalists.

Cheap tricks like these can impress only the gullible.

Whether tricks like these are physically possible or
not is even besides the point. Even if they are possible
they're still not easy and would take a considerable amount
of time. I'm sure Capote was much too smart to waste
the amount of work this would require on such a completely
useless set of data when much easier ways to impress
the naive exist (if it is possible at all, even for someone
with an incredible memory; btw, even learning that data his
acolytes were going to ask about, those few pages or columns
he did actually probably learn, is not bad at all). Can anyone
imagine any use for such a feat when directory assistance
calls are free? (Oh sure, that can save you a lot of money
if you try to call someone in NYC from China or the Antarctica).
Therefore the only use he could make of that data could
be the cheap "demonstration" he indulged in. Now, is it
really credible that he put the amount of work this would
require (if it were possible at all) just for that display?

Btw, the claim that he was prevented from taking notes
sounds beyond credible. Why would people authorize him
to conduct the interviews while preventing him to take
any notes?

I'd say it's probably more an elaborate invention to allow
him to make up part (or all) of the alleged interviews.
Not being allowed to take notes, losing your notes, having
sharks or your rabbit eat your notes, having the police confiscate
your notes, is probably the first trick in the book used
by those who want to present the creations of their own
imagination as serious data.

Journalists would have been much better advised to seriously
check that claim than to be drawn into attending displays
of magic tricks.

But the most bizarre in all of this is (1) that such things
can be invoked by people supposedly trained in critical
thinking and (2) (even assuming that Capote really did
what he said he did) that such a phenomenon can be invoked
to explain a historical question. Are we now invited to
accept the explanation that the Vedas have been transmitted
by a string of unique Capote-like phenomenons, or what?







From bpj at netg.se  Sat Jun 14 09:44:11 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 11:44:11 +0200
Subject: Agni
Message-ID: <161227030924.23782.3301779782521617915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 21:45 13.6.1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote:
>_____________________
>In the hope that I might be able to squeeze water from a stone, I want to
>ask my university to purchase Staal's Agni book and video.  But the on-line
>Books in Print says it is out of print.  Is this correct?  How about the
>video?  From where could I order it?
>
>Many thanks for the help!
>
>Jonathan Silk
>SILK at wmich.edu
>_______________
>
>If you do manage to get the book and accompanying audio
>tapes for your library,  please tell the library folks
>to put a huge "DO NOT THUM" sticker on the audio tapes...
>at the U of M, Ann Arbor, the tapes have been rendered
>useless by someone at the check-out counter who ran it
>thru the machine that sensitizes/desensitizes the labels.
>
>-Srini.

surely they should be transmitted to a compact disk before the last copy is
ruined!








From jai at mantra.com  Sat Jun 14 22:21:14 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 12:21:14 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030940.23782.10903887213492355311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste!

A couple of comments bout the nitpicking in a previous message:
Please obtain an atlas contemporaneous with the quoted text to 
locate the said sarovar. :)
President Clinton, meeting Hawaii's Democratic senator in 
California this morning said, "We'll have to cross the big pond [referring to about 2,500 miles of ocean] and visit y'all in 
Hawaii again one of these days."  "Sarovar", similarly could easily
have been used to denote "sea".

Aloha from Hawaii where tradewinds flow!
(Exercise for the reader: "Hawaii" and Havaa=wind connection?)

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jai at mantra.com  Sat Jun 14 22:32:00 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 12:32:00 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030942.23782.16778556920264701363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste!  At 10:32 PM 6/14/97 BST, S Krishna wrote:
>>   "'The country lying between the Himalayan mountain
>> and Bindu Sarovara (Cape Comorin sea) is known as
>            --------  -------------
>   -  Jai Maharaj quoting HT.

> Is there any SEA by name Cape Comorin? Well, I can't see it on
> any map! . . .
>  -  S Krishna

Yes, Cape Comorin is clearly identified on page 141 of 
The World Book Atlas, World Book, Inc., 1992, ISBN 0-7166-2694-2.

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From bpj at netg.se  Sat Jun 14 11:00:15 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 13:00:15 +0200
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030926.23782.17551001835701587151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:23 14.6.1997, Robert Zydenbos wrote:
>Replies to msg 12 Jun 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>(sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com)
>
> sc> It is corroborated
> sc> in the Oxford Dictionary that the English
> sc> Word "Cash" originated from the Sanskrit  term "Karsha".
>
>"Cash" is from the Tamil kaacu, which is an old Dravidian word. In Kannada it
>is the cognate kaasu, about which Kittel says (vol. 2 of his Kannada-English
>Ditcionary, Madras, 1977, p. 442): "the smallest copper coin, a cash [N.B.!]; a
>coin or money in general", and he mentions that the same word "kaasu" exists in
>Telugu and Tulu too. Marathi has kaa;su (ibid.). That the word means "coin" can
>be seen from an expression like "taamrada kaasu" (a kaasu of copper).

a you sure of this derivation?  SKEAT derives "cash" from French "casse",
in turn from Latin "capsa" 'box'.  MEYER-LUEBKE /romanisches etymol.
woerterbuch/ gives Portuguese "caixa" /kaiSa/ from "capsa", which of course
can have undergone a shift in meaning from denoting the 'cash-box' /cf.
German "kasse"/ to denoting its contents, or had such a shift reinforced,
under influence of the Indic word.  the English "cash" looks like derived
from the Portuguese more than anything else.

>To say that "cash" is derived from Sanskrit kar.sa (which means a particular
>measure of gold), and to base this statement on the Oxford English Dictionary,
>seems to show that the writer has misread that dictionary.

indeed.  as if India needed to have its greatness confirmed by the OED!
has the writer been sleeping since the twenties?

>If "ancient India's contribution to modern civilization" is to be judged by the
>number of words borrowed into English, then the renowned Hobson-Jobson
>Dictionary can provide many more such instances.

indeed.  I wrote a short story -- or rather a chapter in a series of
stories -- set in an alternative history where the first world war had
ended with German victory.  in the story britain had been conquered and the
prince who in real history was Edward VIII had founded an "empire" in exile
consisting of british India, australia and the former "dutch India".  I
used hobson-jobson to construct a hilarious jargon for some of the
characters -- late twentieth-century 'Englishmen' from that state.

>Does this criterion also imply
>that people who do not speak English do not partake of modern civilization? I
>hope not.

it all hinges on the question if modern civilization exists ;-)

>Robert Zydenbos

Philip Jonsson


/excuse me for not capitalizing properly xcept for such capping that my
abbrev-xpansion utility does automaticly. I'm temporarily deprived of the
use of my left hand -- my better one ;(.../







From bpj at netg.se  Sat Jun 14 11:00:26 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 13:00:26 +0200
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030927.23782.11443380959645285206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 09:12 14.6.1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote:


>
>        Incidentally, India is not strictly a *foreign* word: the ancient
>greek words 'India', 'indikos' come probably from sindhu or apparented
>forms.
>

more exactly from the iranian form of the word (hinduS).  *s > h is a
regular change in the iranian branch of Indo-Iranian.

bpj







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 14 21:22:14 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 14:22:14 -0700
Subject: Derivation of the word "Hind"
Message-ID: <161227030937.23782.1776202046552066612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Sat Jun 14 10:17:23 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
mail.liv.ac.uk
>          with Local-SMTP (PP); Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:16:32 +0100
>Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970614070749.008a2d90 at caprica.com>
>Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:16:17 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
Jai Maharaj writes:

>An excerpt is now offered:
>
>"'HINDU' DOES NOT COME FROM 'SINDHU'
>

>   "He cites a more solid argument from the book
>Self-Government in India by N. B. Pavgee, published
>in 1912.  The author tells of an old Swami and
>Sanskrit scholar Mangal Nathji, who found an ancient
>Puran known as Brihannaradi in the Sham village,
>Hoshiarpur, Punjab.  It contained the verse:
>
> "HIMALAYAM SAMARABHYA YAVAT BINDUSAROVARAM
> HINDUSTHANAMITI QYATAM HI ANTARAKSHARAYOGATAH
>
>  "Kumar translates it as:
>
>   "'The country lying between the Himalayan mountain
>and Bindu Sarovara (Cape Comorin sea) is known as
           --------  -------------

Is there any SEA by name Cape Comorin? Well, I can't see it on
any map! There is a PLACE/TOWN/CITY called Kanyakumari/Kanniyakumari
which was known as Cape Comorin in the British India days. But to quote 
your own self, how can we continue to call Kanyakumari "Cape
Comorin" when we believe that calling Bharat "India" or refering to
study of ancient Bharatvarsha as "Indology" is flawed and an insult
to our culture?


I would also like to discuss the meaning of the word "sarovara"
which Jai Maharaj/Krishna Kumar translate as "sea". According
to the Amarakosa, varivargah of the prathama kaandah, we have:

"samudrO'bdhirakupAra: pArAvAra: saritpati:
 udanvAnudadhi: sindhu: sarasvAn sAgarorNava:
 ratnAkaro jalanidhiryAda:paritarapAm pati:"

This is the first stanza in this section and gives us synonyms of the 
word "sea".I realise that sarovara: can be regarded as a variant of 
sarasvAn,but Bhides dictionary i.e. (vidyAdhar vAman bhiDe: A concise
Sanskrit-English dictionary) lists only "lake" against sarOvara:
( and not "sea"). Likewise "amarkOsh kA koShshAstrIya tathA bhaShA
shAstrIya adhyayan" by Dr kailAshchandra tripAThI (This book is in
Hindi) says on Page 104 regarding the word "saras" - amarkoSh mein
"jalAshay" kE paryAya sangrahit hain. iske atirikt "hradah" ( agAdh
vAlE jal sarovar) tathA alpasara: shabdon kA bhI ullEkh hai. He does
not mention anything about the word "sarovar" under the entry for 
"samudra"(sea).

To the best of my knowledge the word "sarovarah" CANNOT be translated as 
"sea" but would translate more as "A body of water" i.e. lake/pond.
So, my question to you is: Is the author correct in assuming that 
"sarovarah" is "sea/ocean"?
---------


Krishna




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From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 14 21:50:14 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 14:50:14 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030939.23782.7897853508252980718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





>From: Lars Martin Fosse <l.m.fosse at internet.no>
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>X-Comment: Indology mailing list
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>>

Lars Martin Fosee asks:
>Any other memory lore out there?
>

Sure, I think I can add three more examples:
1. In the earlier part of this century, the great mathematician
Srinivasa Ramanujan is supposed to have remembered very complicated
formulae for the summision of a given series in the form of complicated  
fractions as dictated by Naamagiri, the consort of Narasimha, the 
presiding diety of the temple in the town of Namakkal. The story is that 
Naamagiri appeared to Ramanujan in his dreams and wrote down formulae on 
a blackboard which Ramanujan would remember and transfer onto his 
notebook the next day. Some of these formulae are exceptionally complex, 
so complex that even the Wranglers and Senior
Wranglers working for G.H.Hardy had a hard time figuring out the 
mechanics of some of the series summisions ( as a group and with the
benefit of paper and pencil). ( This has nothing to do with the Vedas,  
:-)but is a remarkable feat of memory in my opinion).

2. The great Vaishnavite saint Sankaradeva of Assam( the father of
Vaishnavism in Assam) is supposed to have mastered the Geeta Govindam
by listening to it being recited just once in Puri. All copies
of the Geeta Govindam in Assam trace their ancestry back to the master
copy made by Sankaradeva.

3. This concerns Ramanuja, the father of Visishtaadvaitam. When he 
wanted to write a commentary on Baadarayanas Vedanta Sutras, he could 
not find any copy in Tamilnadu. Upon being informed that there was an
authentic copy of the Baadarayana vrtti in the Saradapeetha in 
Kashmir,Ramanuja set out with his disciple Kuresha to obtain a copy of 
the"Vedanta Sutra". Upon reaching there, the local scholars( who didn't 
want to part with the text) told him that as the book had been 
worm-eaten, they could not help him in any way. Ramanuja was initially 
dejected, but sort divine intervention in this matter( Another version
manitains that he sort the help of the Maharaja of Kashmir in this 
matter). Goddess Sarada is supposed to have appeared before Ramanuja and 
is supposed to have given him the Baadarayana Vrtti while advising
him to leave the place the next morning. Ramanuja did as he was advised, 
but the local Pundits discovered the loss of the book and ran after 
Ramanuja and wrested the book from him. Ramanuja was ready to give up 
his writing a commentary on the Vedanta Sutra, but his disciple Kuresha 
assured him that he memorised the whole text because he had read the 
text the previous night. He then wrote out the whole text from memory, 
which Ramanuja studied in order to write his commentary. This 
commentary, called the Sribhaashya owes its existence
to the memory of Kuresa, Ramanujas disciple.

Krishna




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From jai at mantra.com  Sun Jun 15 01:43:16 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 15:43:16 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030946.23782.17581001391587412958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaskaar! At 1:33 AM 6/15/97 BST, 
Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma wrote:
>
> "HIMALAYAM SAMARABHYA YAVAT BINDUSAROVARAM
> HINDUSTHANAMITI QYATAM HI ANTARAKSHARAYOGATAH
> 
> Is not Bindusarovar north of Mt.Kailas in Himalayas?
> Mahabharat, Sabha - 3.
> 
> Sarma.

Two locations decribed as Bindu Sarovar:

In Gujarat:

Excerpt

   "Ahmedabad & North Gujarat
Historical 
Rudra Mahalaya, Bindu Sarovar, Kapilashram,
Govind Mahadev Temple, Haveli's of Vora
community wherein marvellous carvings & glass
paintings could be seen. 
How to get there 
Air 
Nearest airport is Ahmedabad."

End of excerpt       

Source - http://cgibin1.erols.com/invision/tcgl/siddhpur.html

In Karnataka:

Excerpt

   "Sri ADICHUNCHANAGIRI MAHASAMSTHANA is situated on 
a rocky hill at an altitude of about 3,300 ft., above 
sea level, 110 kms west of Bangalore, the capital of
Karnataka, India. 
   "In ancient times, this abode of green woods and 
small lakes enlivened by the wild peacocks and birds 
must have attracted Sages and Rishis for doing penance. 
Lord Gangadhareswara is the Presiding diety. Sri 
Kalabhairaveswara is the Kshetrapalaka of this 
Mahasamsthana. The Pancha Lingas, the Jwala Peeta, 
Sthambamba are all held in great reverence by the 
devotees. The peak point of this Giri [hillock] is known as
Akash Bhairav and the scared pond is called Bindu Sarovar."

Source - http://www.indiaexpress.com/bangalore/eureka/adi.html

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Sat Jun 14 13:52:46 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 15:52:46 +0200
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030929.23782.1481134325338442061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Mozart reportedly heard a mass in the Vatican that was treated
>as a "trade secret", so that the notes were not available to the public.
>Mozart went home after hearing the mass and wrote it all down from memory.
>He went back the next day to hear it once more, and discovered to his
>chagrin that he had gotten one note wrong!

Not a mass but Allegri's "Miserere". A few pages of music.

Although this particular feat is considered to be true, much
Mozart folklore is pure myth though, and there's no evidence
that Mozart had a so called "photographic memory". Music is
highly structured material and Mozart's excellent musical memory
seem to have had to do more with his musical capacities of
analysis and his ability to grasp structure than with purely
mechanical feats of memory.








From jai at mantra.com  Sun Jun 15 02:23:47 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 16:23:47 -1000
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227030950.23782.1285954735988733895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste! At 03:08 AM 6/15/97 BST, 
S Krishna <mahadevasiva at hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> To all the readers of this post! I do know and realise t
> that the above post is not quite what you would expect 
> to see in an academic group like this . . .

Fear not, the behavior was completely as expected!
Very enjoyable. (Who's yawning?)

> but it is being done in response to a meaningless
> post . . .

Open the mind, the meaning shall enter, they say.

Aloha from the land of tradewinds (havaa-ee).

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jai at mantra.com  Sun Jun 15 03:46:09 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 17:46:09 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030953.23782.9480198077029597357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 3:53 AM 6/15/97 BST, 
Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma <narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in> wrote:
> . . .
>> Two locations decribed as Bindu Sarovar:
> In Gujarat:
>> . . . 
>> Source - http://cgibin1.erols.com/invision/tcgl/siddhpur.html
>> In Karnataka:
>> Source - http://www.indiaexpress.com/bangalore/eureka/adi.html
>> . . .
 
> That means Bindusarovar is not the sea near Cape Camorin.

Perhaps one can take that to mean that "Bindu Sarovar" is a 
desirable name for a body of water, inspired by spiritual practice,
literal meaning and/or other reasons.  There are at least three 
cities called "Delhi" in the world -- in Bharat, and in the states 
of Colorado and New York.  Of course, this does not mean that 
Delhi is not a city in Bharat.

> Are the two Bindosarovars mentioned wellknown enough to serve
> as the southern boundary of Hindusthan ? If so which one of them
> is the southern boundary ? It will be nice if some rationale
> behind the choice is also mentioned.
> Sarma.

Considering the Bindu Sarovar as mentioned in the HT excerpt and
Cape Comorin as shown in the World Book Atlas (and others, surely),
the southern boundary lies in the waters in proximity to Shri Lanka.  
If a determnation is to be made by logical reasoning then will it 
be able to pass the without-the-shadow-of-a-doubt test? 

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Sat Jun 14 16:55:24 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 18:55:24 +0200
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030934.23782.5108768662178608807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>During, I think, the lenten Penetential Mass, the beautiful __Miserere__ of
>Gregorio Allegri was performed in the Sistene Chapel.  This agnst-ridden
>music brought many to tears and even swooning, as I think John Ruskin
>reported.  For this reason since the C. XVII the Vatican never released the
>score. The gorgeous simplicity of the piece made this example of Mozart's
>memory less impressive than some others.

The simplicity of the score (and of the kind of performance which could
be heard until the early music movement reestablished to some extent early
performance practices) is misleading.

Mozart of course wrote down the "Miserere" exactly as heard, i.e. *as
performed*, with all the ornamentation exactly as executed and *not* just
a sketch of it, which the score essentially was.

It seems what Mozart achieved *was* a feat by all contemporary accounts
(think about it: what would be the purpose of not releasing the score
of a piece which could be written down by any competent musician?) and
if Ruskin says otherwise it must be simply that he didn't understand what the
performance practices of that time and place were and was mistakenly judging
either from the score or from a 19th century performance.









From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 15 02:03:25 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 19:03:25 -0700
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227030948.23782.16041398134400803659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>






>President Clinton, meeting Hawaii's Democratic senator in 
            ------


Wow! The truth has finally dawned! The said Nadi was deciphered
with the help of Clintons statement! WOW! WOW! WOW! What next!
Are you gonna interpret the "Shukla Yajurveda" with the help
of Al Gore( "Gore"= Gora= white=shukla)!!!;-),;-),;-)....
Your tale certainly beats Dan Quayle!

>California this morning said, "We'll have to cross the big pond 
[referring to about 2,500 miles of ocean] and visit y'all in 
>Hawaii again one of these days."  "Sarovar", similarly could easily
>have been used to denote "sea".
>
>Aloha from Hawaii where tradewinds flow!
>(Exercise for the reader: "Hawaii" and Havaa=wind connection?)
                            ----------------------------------- 

                   Seattle and "Sheetal"= connection?
                     Vienna and Veena = connection?
                    Vancouer and Vankaayi Koora = connection?
(Vankaayi Koora in Telugu translates as  "Eggplant Curry". Vancouer
is famous for eggplant curry! Ergo! Vancouer is derived from Vankaayi
Koora)
                    Moscow and Mosaikkaran = connection?
(In Tamil, "mosaikkaran" translates roughly as trickster. The first
Tamilian to visit Moscow found all Muscovites to be Mosaikkaran!
Ergo, he named it Mosaikkarapuram which became Moscow later!)
                     Utah and OOta= connection?
                  (OOTa is lunch in Kannada)
                     Japan and Japam = connection? 
                (Thiru)Malaysia and Thirumala-Thirupati=connection?
                    Italy and Idli=connection? 
                    PAKistan and Mysore PAK = connection?
                    Canada and Kannada = connection?
This brand of logic can be extended in order to prove that the names
Debbie, Pamela and Harry are from Devi,Pramila and Hari respectively,
and Norway is named after Dayanand Naarway, a minister in Goa,Dr Sun Yat 
Sen(gupta) was a Bengali speaking doctor, Homeopathy is an Anglicized 
version of Umapathy, who was a noted Ayurvedic physician,
Sam the eagle is actually Garuda in disguise, Romania is actually the 
Sanskrit word "Ramaneeya" misspelt and Ireland is actually a corruption 
of "Iyer"land,Morocco is a contraction of Hindi "Maaro Usko".....enough 
PJs for a whole year!
                 
To all the readers of this post! I do know and realise that the above
post is not quite what you would expect to see in an academic group like 
this, but it is being done in response to a meaningless
post with respect to a SERIOUS question from me! I promise you that
this is the last of such nonsense that you will see from me!...Er!
Before, I leave let me go back to this connection between "Hawaai"
and "Havaa" and assure the concerned gentleman and "Hawaai" is most
probably derived from Hawaai Chappal, which in India is used for
more than one purpose i.e. feet-protection and an eloquent expression
of *agreement* with certain kinds of speakers, which may be pertinent
in this discussion.

I rest my case!                   

Krishna



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From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Sat Jun 14 13:49:54 1997
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 22:49:54 +0900
Subject: Ancient India's Contribtuion to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227030931.23782.17415337019593431584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote:
> 
> At 02:23 14.6.1997, Robert Zydenbos wrote:
> 
> >"Cash" is from the Tamil kaacu, which is an old Dravidian word. In Kannada it
> >is the cognate kaasu, about which Kittel says (vol. 2 of his Kannada-English
> >Ditcionary, Madras, 1977, p. 442): "the smallest copper coin, a cash [N.B.!]; a
> >coin or money in general", and he mentions that the same word "kaasu" exists in
> >Telugu and Tulu too. Marathi has kaa;su (ibid.). That the word means "coin" can
> >be seen from an expression like "taamrada kaasu" (a kaasu of copper).
> 
> a you sure of this derivation?  SKEAT derives "cash" from French "casse",
> in turn from Latin "capsa" 'box'.  MEYER-LUEBKE /romanisches etymol.
> woerterbuch/ gives Portuguese "caixa" /kaiSa/ from "capsa", which of course
> can have undergone a shift in meaning from denoting the 'cash-box' /cf.
> German "kasse"/ to denoting its contents, or had such a shift reinforced,
> under influence of the Indic word.  the English "cash" looks like derived
> from the Portuguese more than anything else.
> 
According to Donald F. Lach, who gives a list of "words of Asiatic
origin introduced into the European 
Vocabulary (sixteenth century)" (Asia in the making of Europe, vol. II,
A Century of Wonder, book three: The Scholarly Disciplines, Chicago
1977: Univ. o. Chicago Press, p.544ff.), the English word "cash"
appeared in 1621, and is derived from Portuguese/Italian "caixa", first
attested in 1510. Lach gives both the Sanskrit and the Tamil expressions
as bases for derivation. Lach also gives a useful list of reference
works for similar word-lists. 

At any rate, when explaining European vocabulary as deriving from Asian
languages, one always has to go back to the first attested European
usage. Jumping straight from Sanskrit/Tamil to English doesn't really
seem useful if the Sanskrit/Tamil expression entered Europe through a
language other than English. 


-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University






From jai at mantra.com  Sun Jun 15 10:03:07 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 00:03:07 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030959.23782.985136438379634940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste! At 10:29 AM 6/15/97 BST, 
Lars Martin Fosse <l.m.fosse at internet.no> wrote:
> . . . Combining hi (malaya) + (bi) ndu => hindu is a 
> flight of fancy quite typical of similar flights of 
> fancy that are regularly found in the Puranas. 
> . . . they did not have inkling of an idea about historical 
> linguistics and the relationship between languages on a 
> larger scale. Therefore, puranic statements of this kind have no 
> value whatsoever.

One observes that the entertainment continues. :)
The above may be summarized as:
1. Something that does not agree with the Persian/Iranian/
  European point of view is a "flight of fancy"
2. Such fancies are regularly found in the 
  Puraan (plural needs no "s").
3. They had no inkling of an idea . . . (but we do!)
4. Therefore the knowledge contained in the Puraan has no value.

If the above were presented as an argument 
in a court of law, one would run the risk of being charged
with mass-murder by provoking uncontrolled laughter!
Dhanyavaad.

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From thillaud at unice.fr  Sun Jun 15 00:12:17 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 02:12:17 +0200
Subject: "Hindu" (Was: Re: Ancient India's Contribtuion...)
Message-ID: <161227030943.23782.3624398584016546837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 19:17 +0200 14/06/97, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote (from A. Krishna Kumar, from
N. B. Pavgee, from Mangal Nathji, from an ancient Puran):

>   "'The country lying between the Himalayan mountain
>and Bindu Sarovara (Cape Comorin sea) is known as
>Hindusthan by combination of the first letter "hi" of
>"Himalaya" and the last compound letter "ndu" of the
>word "Bindu."'"

	Well, strictly irrefutable.

	Namaste!
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in  Sun Jun 15 00:49:22 1997
From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 05:49:22 +0500
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030945.23782.5909308398663813271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


 "HIMALAYAM SAMARABHYA YAVAT BINDUSAROVARAM
 HINDUSTHANAMITI QYATAM HI ANTARAKSHARAYOGATAH
 
 Is not Bindusarovar north of Mt.Kailas in Himalayas?
 Mahabharat, Sabha - 3.
 
 Sarma.







From jai at mantra.com  Sun Jun 15 16:28:32 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 06:28:32 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030977.23782.5020814667823742178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste! At 12:22 PM 6/15/97 BST,
Lars Martin Fosse <l.m.fosse at internet.no> wrote:
> . . .
> Yes they are. Similar flights of fancy are found not 
> only the Puranas (sorry, but I insist on the plural s), 
> but in all old works, whether Indic or European.

"Puraan" is singular or plural without applying the 
pluralization rules of an alien language. "Flights of fancy"
is a personal characterization that may be echoed by link-
minded people, of course.  

>> 3. They had no inkling of an idea . . . (but we do!)
>
> There is no attested knowledge of historical linguistics in India. 
> Nor was there any in Europe before the last century. 

The absence of the proof of something is no proof of its absence.

Dhanyavaad.

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From gldnreef at primenet.com  Sun Jun 15 15:03:59 1997
From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 08:03:59 -0700
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030972.23782.10824935953902848484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:23 PM 6/15/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>>2. Such fancies are regularly found in the 
>>  Puraan (plural needs no "s").
>
>Yes they are. Similar flights of fancy are found not only the Puranas
>(sorry, but I insist on the plural s), but in all old works, whether Indic
>or European.
>

Recently, I found very good examples of false etymologies in a European
context: the __Leyenda Aurea__ of Jacobus de Voragine.  It is the most
popular Medieval collection of hagiography.  At the beginning of each
saint's life there is an etymology of that saint's name that either refers
to his or her legend or to doctrinal principles that he or she embodied.
Here is the English-speaker's reference, though there are translations in
every European language:

__The Golden Legend: Readings on the Saints__.  Jacobus de Voragine, William
Granger Ryan, trans. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1993
ISBN vol. 1 0-691-00153-7; vol 2 0-691-00154-5.






From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in  Sun Jun 15 03:21:34 1997
From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 08:21:34 +0500
Subject: The meaning of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030951.23782.2806038207742555493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On 15 june Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote
------------------------------------------------
Two locations decribed as Bindu Sarovar:
 
In Gujarat:
 
Excerpt
 
   "Ahmedabad & North Gujarat
Historical 
Rudra Mahalaya, Bindu Sarovar, Kapilashram,
Govind Mahadev Temple, Haveli's of Vora
community wherein marvellous carvings & glass
paintings could be seen. 
How to get there 
Air 
Nearest airport is Ahmedabad."
 
End of excerpt       
 
Source - http://cgibin1.erols.com/invision/tcgl/siddhpur.html
 
In Karnataka:
 
Excerpt
 
   "Sri ADICHUNCHANAGIRI MAHASAMSTHANA is situated on 
a rocky hill at an altitude of about 3,300 ft., above 
sea level, 110 kms west of Bangalore, the capital of
Karnataka, India. 
   "In ancient times, this abode of green woods and 
small lakes enlivened by the wild peacocks and birds 
must have attracted Sages and Rishis for doing penance. 
Lord Gangadhareswara is the Presiding diety. Sri 
Kalabhairaveswara is the Kshetrapalaka of this 
Mahasamsthana. The Pancha Lingas, the Jwala Peeta, 
Sthambamba are all held in great reverence by the 
devotees. The peak point of this Giri [hillock] is known as
Akash Bhairav and the scared pond is called Bindu Sarovar."
 
Source - http://www.indiaexpress.com/bangalore/eureka/adi.html
 
Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti
 
Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
------------------------------------------------------------
 
That means Bindusarovar is not the sea near Cape Camorin.
 
Are the two Bindosarovars mentioned wellknown enough to serve
as the southern boundary of Hindusthan ? If so which one of them
is the southern boundary ? It will be nice if some rationale
behind the choice is also mentioned.
 
Sarma.







From thillaud at unice.fr  Sun Jun 15 06:42:28 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 08:42:28 +0200
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227030955.23782.17464142842979300253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 4:32 +0200 15/06/97, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>
>Open the mind, the meaning shall enter, they say.
>

	But this sentence shall be understanded:


Open the mind to the Truth, the true meaning shall enter,
Open the mind to the Falsehood, the false meaning shall enter.

	because:

yattu kRtsnavadekasminkArye saktamahaitukam
atattvArthavadalpaM ca tattAmasamudAhRtam

	namaste,
Dominique

PS: I've liked S. Krishna's jokes and I propose an other contribution:
	U.S.A < uSA because at the East of Bharat or, perhaps
	< uSAH samudram atikramya
	  ^    ^        ^

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From bandi at cs.umn.edu  Sun Jun 15 14:54:14 1997
From: bandi at cs.umn.edu (VB)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 09:54:14 -0500
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030970.23782.16597905614119559322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> >> . . . Combining hi (malaya) + (bi) ndu => hindu is a 
> >> flight of fancy quite typical of similar flights of 
> >> fancy that are regularly found in the Puranas. 
> >> . . . they did not have inkling of an idea about historical 
> >> linguistics and the relationship between languages on a 
> >> larger scale. Therefore, puranic statements of this kind have no 
> >> value whatsoever.

	What follows is my opinion (IMHO), humble because I'm not
trained either in sastras or in linguistics. So caveat reader :)
I'll try to give a series of explanations running from most
likely to least likely:

1. The combination hi(malaya)+(bi)ndu seems rather contrieved
 especially to name an entire culture/religion after. I'm not
 even sure if this literary device of cut&paste to form new stuff
 was practiced in ancient India.
	Are there any other examples of this sort in hindu/sanskrit
 scriptures (sruti or smriti)? Hmm.
	(Actually, I am aware of such a thing happenning: but its
not sanskrit and its in modern times - it is 'pakistan' derived
from the names of its constituent states.)

2. The circumstances of the "discovery" are rather suspect. Wasnt
 it around the same time (1913) that another sastra ("Vaimanika
Sastra? Art of Flight) was discovered/revealed-yogically, and that
talked about 'mercury based engines powering aircraft'; 
	The second decade of this century shows an emergence of
national conciousness among Indians and also a desire to assert
national heritage and identity. These discoveries could have been
a part and parcel of the general (in your face) mood prevailing
at that time.

3. Perhaps hi(malaya)+(bi)ndu is older than 20th century but not
verymuch. There was ample time in the second millenia for some-
one to sit down and think this up; Aryavarta and Dakshinapath
really truely came togeather as a unit only rather later in
history, say 1300 AD; (probably with muslim-invation of deccan,
and previous whirlwind tours of Sankara);

4. hi(malaya)+(bi)ndu is a genuinely old construct. For this to
be accepted, we need to date the appearence of "hindu" and 
"bindu-sarovar" in the literature. When was the Indian Ocean
(or, the sea south of the southern tip) identified as "bindu-
sarovar"? (While we are there, does anyone know who identified
the subcontinent as JambuDweep"? and how early was it?)

	All in all, I'd rather not accept hi(malaya)+(bi)ndu combo
without stronger evidence. Maybe someone could try and date
the 'discovered' sastra and I'm assuming a 20th century work
(even if the author tried imitating the very old scriptures
in language and idiom) should give itself away.  (perhaps
look for phrases coined in the second millenium?).

	Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. The
voices in the author's head (wasnt it a revealed book?) need
to be identified as truely ancient voices and not of the
next door politico (patriotic as he was) :-)

-Vijay Bandi







From jai at mantra.com  Sun Jun 15 20:56:42 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 10:56:42 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030984.23782.6663735866588099881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste!

One observes that when persons such as the one whose
post appears below feel frustrated because, apparently,
they are not capable of discussing the subject at hand,
they resort to libel against others.  Is this the only 
way they know how to feel good about themselves?
Pity, but help them.

Jai Maharaj     http://www.flex.com/~jai     Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

> Received: from mailhub.liverpool.ac.uk (mail.liv.ac.uk > [138.253.100.84]) by prog1.caprica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id > NAA05387 for <jai at mantra.com>; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:57:29 -0700
> Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by > mail.liv.ac.uk 
> with Local-SMTP (PP); Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:41:01 +0100
> Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970615132635.4252A-100000 at hartnell>
> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:40:54 BST
> From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vidya at cco.caltech.edu>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: "Hindu"
>
>
> Dear list members,
> 
> It will be better for everybody's sanity if Jai Maharaj's postings 
> are simply ignored. This individual has certainly made various 
> newsgroups very colorful in the past, but this list certainly does 
> not need the kind of color he contributes. No response is the best 
> response.
> 
> Vidyasankar
> 
> ps. I fully expect some sort of campaign on this list and/or 
> newsgroups by Jai Maharaj against me because of this post, but if 
> such a thing happens, I'm going to follow my own advice and ignore 
> it all!








From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sun Jun 15 09:26:24 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 11:26:24 +0200
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227030958.23782.5899015470330802252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A few remarks on the word Hindu = Sindhu etc.

Hindu is not a Persian *misspelling* of Sindhu. It represents the natural
phonetic development in ancient Iranian of the original *sindhu. In Awestan,
initial *s becomes h in front of vowels. 

The words "indus, indikus (Latin) / indos, indikos (Greek)" must have come
to Western Europe via Greek in the Hellenistic period. That is when the
Greeks "drop their h'es". (I assume that if the word had entered Greek at an
earlier stage, the Latin version might have been hindus, although this is
strictly speaking not absolutely necessary). Consequently, Persian hindu-
(the change from dh > d is also typical of Iranian) would become indo- in a
Greek mouth. In this shape the word also got into Latin from Greek. 

The word hindustaan vs. an imagined Skt. *sindhusthaana contains three
Iranian phonetic features: s- > h-, -dh- > -d- and -th- > -t-. In India,
Hindustaan is therefore a Persian loan-word (which may be why Indians prefer
to call their country Bharat. Originally, the area inhabited by the aryans
was called Aryavarta, which is exactly the same as Iranian Airyanam varsha,
which has developed into the modern name, Iran).

Combining hi (malaya) + (bi) ndu => hindu is a flight of fancy quite typical
of similar flights of fancy that are regularly found in the Puranas. The
ancient Indians had an excellent understanding of grammar and phonetics as
systemic structures (Panini proves that to total satisfaction), but they did
not have inkling of an idea about historical linguistics and the
relationship between languages on a larger scale. Therefore, puranic
statements of this kind have no value whatsoever.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Jun 15 15:56:55 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 11:56:55 -0400
Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification?
Message-ID: <161227030976.23782.329705090156044008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-13 22:16:26 EDT, you write:

<< This question imposes an extremely
 artificial distinction between "Vedic" and "tAntric". Whatever one's own
 thoughts on these two terms may be, there is no doubt that the sacredness
 of a mantra is very much a Vedic concept. I suspect that many scholarly
 conceptions of what it means to be "vedic" stop with the Rgveda. There is
 the yajurveda also, you know, which unlike the sAmaveda, does not share a
 whole lot of material with the Rg. Both pancAkshara and ashTAkshara
 mantras occur in the taittirIya SAkhA of the yajurveda. 
 
 Indeed, a scholar of Indian religion will do well to steer clear of such 
 vedic vs. tantric divisions, and call it a "mAntric" concept. Entire
 portions of the prAtiSAkhya and brAhmaNa literature concentrate on the
 meaning/enunciation of vedic mantras, and in the later schools of Vedic
 exegesis, the mantra becomes central to the entire Vedic religion, so
 much so that there is no vedic god independent of a mantra.  >>

As for your discussion on the Yajur Vedic material, I have come across Dr.
Parpola's work related to this issue. This is what Asko Parpola says in his
book Deciphering the Indus Script (p.168-169) in talking about the Dravidian
phonological and syntactic influences on Rgvedic language. "One further
reason why some scholars have been unwilling to accept these structural
features as Dravidisms, in addition to the small number of Dravidian loan
words (which are also called into question), is their early and sudden
appearance. This, however, is exactly what can be expected if the Dravidisms
were adopted indirectly, through another Aryan language that had been subject
to direct substratum influence of Dravidian for a longer time.We must bear in
mind that the Rgveda was largely composed in the plains of the Punjab
relatively late, and redacted even later. The language, as well as the
contents, of the Yajurveda reflects an entirely different tradition, which
probably evolved in the Punjab and was incorporated in the Veda only during
the acculturation that may be assumed to have taken place after the descent
of the Rgvedic tradition from the Swat Valley. Epic Sanskrit, which contains
a larger number of Dravidian loanwords than the Vedic texts, is likely to go
back to the same 'Proto-Yajurvedic' dialect of Old Indo-Aryan".

What this seems to tell me is that the Yajur Vedic materials are a result of
a combination of pre-Rg Vedic and Rg Vedic materials and as you indicated, I
should be talking about differences between 'Rgvedic' and 'tantric' materials
instead of 'vedic' and tantric'. (What I was trying to do was using two
'onvenient' words to distinguish the cultural elements of the later Aryans
and the people who came earlier.) And, if the emphasis on pancAkshara and
ashtAkshara begins only with Yajur Veda, then won't there be a significant
probability  that these views were contributions from the pre-Rgvedic Aryan
culture? In that case, 'maRai' must pre-date Vedas. For instance, normally,
no Indian would refer to Rg Veda as Hindu Bible. But the Bible is referred to
as Christian Veda or Christian maRai by Indian Christians. Similarly, while
'maRai' would have been used to refer to vedas and tantras, the term 'Veda'
would not be used to refer to tantras. That is why I feel that a study of the
usage of the words 'maRai' and Veda will be useful. A clue that we have
something other than Vedas is indicated by the term 'maRai' may be given by
the text that Durga is "maRai above maRai". Is she described in Sanskrit
texts as 'Veda above Veda'? If so, then we may have to discount the
usefulness of this clue.

As for CT attestation about chanting of the Vedas in Tamilnadu, they seemed
to have done it very publicly. ParipATal 11 describes brahmins making 'havir'
offerings in the fire on the banks of Vaiyai river and the brahmin girls
warming themselves by the fire after bathing in the river in the month of
'tai'. (Of course, Manu classifies all Tamils, along with Chinese etc, as
fallen Kshatriyas. So they might not have had as much reservation about the
Tamils hearing the Vedas.) According to R. Ghose, to this day, verses from
the Vedas (including rudram and camakam) are chanted in the TiruvArUr temple
in a hall outside the sanctum sanctorum, which seems to me  to be a public
place as well. So I do not know if the concept of secrecy was attached to
vedas. But it will be good if other Indian groups characterized the vedas as
secret texts.


Regards

S. Palaniappan  









From jai at mantra.com  Sun Jun 15 22:51:46 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 12:51:46 -1000
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227030989.23782.6599490422378297982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste! At 11:44 PM 6/15/97 BST, Anshuman Pandey wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:
> [...]
>Boy, you really opened up a can of worms here! Correct me if I am wrong,
>but isn't "iyer" indeed a corruption of the word "arya"? And isn't the
>root in the name Ireland a cognate of "arya", not to mention the root in
>Iran as well. So, in a round-about way, Ireland really would be a 
>corruption of "Iyer"land, wouldn't it?
>Regards,
>Anshuman Pandey

Well, at least there is no dispute that "Canada" is
a nothing but a Eurocentric bastardization of "Kannada". :)

Jai Maharaj
Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Sun Jun 15 11:01:19 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 13:01:19 +0200
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227030961.23782.17139131661957131387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>        One of the Eka chanda graahi's was a renowned Tamil poet who
>        lived in the last century.
>                        His name was Maambala Kavi Chingga
>        Naavalar, of Palani.
>                        He lost his eye sight due to smaall pox as
>         an infant. He is said to have been saved by a miracle caused
>        by Sri Murugan of Palani Hill.
>                        He learnt the Tamil alphabet from his father,
>        who taught him by writing the letters on his back, while
>        pronouncing them.

I'm not sure what purpose learning the shape of the letters could
have, since he was blind.

I guess this kind of story don't worry to hard about making sense.

Also, I think I have some disagreement with you as to what "well
documented" means. Well-documented does *not* mean to me that lots
of people are repeating the story uncritically, which is what it
seems to mean to you.

Note I'm not completely skeptical about stories of incredible memories.
Simply that the myth vs. truth ratio in those stories is probably
something like 10 to 1. But the 10th that's left that's probably
true is still often amazing.








From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sun Jun 15 11:02:26 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 13:02:26 +0200
Subject: Redfaced correction concerning Hindu
Message-ID: <161227030963.23782.5551269609298941173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I refer to my previous message, where I claimed that the words indos /
indikos would have entered Greek and Latin in the hellenistic period. In
fact, it must have happened earlier. The first Greek-speaking person to go
to India that we know is Scylax, who went to India with Darius in the 6th
century. The loss of the h is due to Ionian Greek, which looses its h's
earlier than Attic. This I should have remembered (if I had been up early, I
could have blamed it on an early morning, but I have no excuse). 

Anyway, those of you who would like to get some more information on the
Greeks, Persians and the Hindus, please consult the informative book by
Klaus Karttunen, India in Early Greek Literature. Helsinki 1989.

Best redfaced regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sun Jun 15 11:19:00 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 13:19:00 +0200
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030965.23782.5487906868284121311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> . . . Combining hi (malaya) + (bi) ndu => hindu is a 
>> flight of fancy quite typical of similar flights of 
>> fancy that are regularly found in the Puranas. 
>> . . . they did not have inkling of an idea about historical 
>> linguistics and the relationship between languages on a 
>> larger scale. Therefore, puranic statements of this kind have no 
>> value whatsoever.
>
>One observes that the entertainment continues. :)
>The above may be summarized as:
>1. Something that does not agree with the Persian/Iranian/
>  European point of view is a "flight of fancy"

That is not my argument.

>2. Such fancies are regularly found in the 
>  Puraan (plural needs no "s").

Yes they are. Similar flights of fancy are found not only the Puranas
(sorry, but I insist on the plural s), but in all old works, whether Indic
or European.

>3. They had no inkling of an idea . . . (but we do!)

There is no attested knowledge of historical linguistics in India. Nor was
there any in Europe before the last century. Such things as historical and
comparative linguistics are modern phenomena, discovered in the 19th century.

>4. Therefore the knowledge contained in the Puraan has no value.

I did not claim that the knowledge contained in the Puranas has no value.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It depends upon what the knowledge
concerns.

>If the above were presented as an argument 
>in a court of law, one would run the risk of being charged
>with mass-murder by provoking uncontrolled laughter!
>Dhanyavaad.

Mass-murder by laughter always depends upon the audience. An audience
without a sense of humour is not likely to die from uncontrolled laughter.
An audience with a thwarted sense of humour will laugh at the most
unexpected things. In this case, there are good historical arguments for
accepting the traditional view on "hindu". The word is attested as such in
Persian inscriptions at a time when I believe Cape Comorin was unknown to
the Aryans of the North (but here I may be wrong). Thus, death by laughter
is unlikely to happen.

Anyway, if the Puranic wisdom makes you feel better, by all means stick to
it. But you can't expect this view to be taken seriously among historical
linguists.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Sun Jun 15 20:31:04 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 13:31:04 -0700
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227030982.23782.3095755056305469093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear list members,

It will be better for everybody's sanity if Jai Maharaj's postings are
simply ignored. This individual has certainly made various newsgroups very
colorful in the past, but this list certainly does not need the kind of
color he contributes. No response is the best response.

Vidyasankar

ps. I fully expect some sort of campaign on this list and/or newsgroups by
Jai Maharaj against me because of this post, but if such a thing happens,
I'm going to follow my own advice and ignore it all!






From jai at mantra.com  Mon Jun 16 00:09:03 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 14:09:03 -1000
Subject: India - Once Plentiful
Message-ID: <161227030991.23782.17782413637705951409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste!
The following was recently posted
by the Hindu Vivek Kendra ( http://www.hvk.org/hvk )

India - Once Plentiful

Hinduism Today
May 1997

Records reveal British schemes diminished crops and dismantled a native
system of abundance

Most of us college-educated Indians were taught that inefficient
technologies and low productivities pervaded through long ages in
practically all parts of India," states Dr. S.K. Bajaj, director of the
Centre for Policy Studies, a Chennai think tank. In the 1920s Gandhi's
Young India presented some proof of a rich and prosperous pre-British
India. Then in the 1960s, the Centre's founder, historian Sri Dharampal,
discovered at the Thanjavur Tamil University a set of palmleaf records
documenting a British survey of 2,000 villages of Chengalpattu, a large
area surrounding present-day Chennai. "Startling features of Tamil society
in the 18th century emerge from these palmleaf accounts," said Bajaj.
"Between 1762 and 1766 there were villages which produced up to 12 tons of
paddy a hectare. This level of productivity can be obtained only in the
best of the Green Revolution areas of the country, with the most advanced,
expensive and often environmentally ruinous technologies. The annual
availability of all food averaged five tons per household; the national
average in India today is three-quarters ton. Whatever the ways of
pre-British Indian society, they were definitely neither ineffective nor
inefficient."

Food production is just one aspect of the colonial impact being addressed
by the Centre. The Chengalpattu records are part of Dharampal's research
which has uncovered a politically, technologically and economically
vibrant Indian society of the 18th century. "That society was dismantled
and atomized by the British, by force," states the Centre's brochure, "and
the diverse skills of the Indian people were pushed out of the public
sphere and made to rust and decay. For India to become a vibrant and
dynamic nation again, we only need to re-awaken the political, economic
and technological skills of our people." The records are especially useful
for understanding how Hindu religious institutions were originally
supported, and why they declined under Britishrule.

Dharampal believes Indians must rediscover their nation's traditional
sense of chitta, mind, and flow of time, kala. "Since we have lost
practically all contact with our tradition, and all comprehension of our
chitta and kala, there are no standards and norms on the basis of which to
answer questions that arise in ordinary social living. Ordinary Indians
perhaps still retainan innate understanding of right action and right
thought, but our elite society seems to have lost all touch with any
stable norms of behavior and thinking. The present attempt at imitating
the world and following every passing fad can hardly lead us anywhere. We
shall have no options until we evolve a conceptual framework of our own,
based on chitta and kala, to discriminate between right and wrong, what is
useful for us and what is futile."

The Centre's three main researchers are: M.D. Srinivas, a theoretical
physicist teaching at the University of Madras, who specializes in Indian
science; T.M. Mukundan, a mechanical engineer specializing in technologies
such as water management and iron smelting; and J.K. Bajaj, also a
theoretical physicist, now involved in economy, agriculture and energy.

The Chengalpattu data was a Godsend for the Centre, and has allowed them
to support many of their central theories about pre-British India. The
accounts detail a complete economic, social, administrative and religious
picture of the society. Every temple, pond, garden and grove in a locality
is listed, the occupation, family size, home and lot size of 62,500
households meticulously recorded. Crop yields between 1762-66 are tallied.
Per capita production of food in this region (which is of average
fertility) was more than five times that achieved on average today.

Bajaj and his associates didn't do all their work in a library. The team
set off in person across the Chengalpattu region to verify the picture
presented in the leafs. They found most of these villages
deserted--perhaps since the beginning of the 19th century--by all who had
any resources, education or skills. Inhabitants had left behind their
palatial houses, their temples and groves. Abandoned as well were the
eyrs--the irrigation tanks and channels--often cut across by British-built
roads which left dry land on one side and stagnant water on the other.
Their on-the-ground inspection confirmed many aspects of the inscribed
leaves.

Of importance to Hindu history is how the religious institutions were
maintained. Lands called manyam were assigned for the support of various
functions, including religious activities. Certain percentages of the
production from this land were divided among the various public functions,
such as administration, army, education and religious institutions. Small
temples received income from nearby villages. Larger ones, such as those
of the great center of Kanchipuram, received income from over a thousand
villages. The amount dedicated to religion from the manyam lands,
accordingto the leaves, was a substantial four percent of the total
produce of the region. It supported temples, academies of learning,
dancers and musicians. A portion was also provided for Muslim and Jain
institutions. This system resulted in the vast network of temples, most
now neglected, seen across South India.

The British government changed this system. In some areas they calculated
a percentage figure of total tax revenue going to the institutions and
fixed it as a dollar amount, in 1799 dollars. Some institutions still
receive this same government allotment--worth next to nothing today.
Others became owners of the land from which a share of production once
came. This introduced its own set of problems, also still with us today,
where temples are unable to collect the rent. The collective result was
that the great religious and cultural institutions of the 18th century
decayed and lost touch with the community. The British taxes were so high
there was no money left to support the administration or cultural
establishments. School teachers, musicians, dancers, keepers of the
irrigation works, moved away, or took to farming. By 1871, 80% of the area
was engaged in agriculture (up from less than 50% earlier), and many of
the services and industrial activities that dominated the Chengalpattu
society of the 1770s ceased to exist.

The value of the Centre's research is obvious: India, and Hinduism with
it, flourished in the not-so-distant past--without the Green Revolution or
the Industrial Revolution or the Worker's Revolution. Dharampal, Bajaj and
their associates want India to look back at this time, dissect and
understand it, and use that indigenous knowledge to reinvigorate the
world's largest democracy.

How the Green Revolution failed

Dr. Ramon De La Peqa of the University of Hawaii is one of the world's
foremost experts on rice. He also happens to be a neighbor of the ashram
from which Hinduism Today is produced. Asked to comment on the
Chengalpattu reports, he said: "Such yields as 12 tons per hectare were
definitely possible with the old methods and two crops a year. The best
modern US production is eight to nine tons per hectare (one annual crop).
The world average is presently three to five tons/hectare. Before the
Green Revolution[which introduced new, high-yielding strains] the average
was one to one-and-a-half tons/hectare. The Green Revolution worked in
some areas but not in others. The short variety of rice developed for it
grew just one meter high. To be productive, it needed fertilizer, and the
fields had to be kept weed free. The old varieties were two meters high,
not so suspectible to weed competition, resistant to insects and did not
need fertilizer. If the new varieties are not managed correctly--with
fertilizers, pesticides and insecticides--the harvest is less than with
the old methods of minimum input. New is not always better."

End of post by the Hindu Vivek Kendra.

Jai Maharaj
Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti







From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Sun Jun 15 21:22:27 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 14:22:27 -0700
Subject: Some thoughts on Sanskritization or Tantrification?
Message-ID: <161227030986.23782.8937648420400962702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

> Parpola's work related to this issue. This is what Asko Parpola says in his
> book Deciphering the Indus Script (p.168-169) in talking about the Dravidian
> phonological and syntactic influences on Rgvedic language. "One further
> reason why some scholars have been unwilling to accept these structural
> features as Dravidisms, in addition to the small number of Dravidian loan
> words (which are also called into question), is their early and sudden
> appearance. This, however, is exactly what can be expected if the Dravidisms
> were adopted indirectly, through another Aryan language that had been subject
> to direct substratum influence of Dravidian for a longer time.We must bear in
> mind that the Rgveda was largely composed in the plains of the Punjab
> relatively late, and redacted even later. The language, as well as the
> contents, of the Yajurveda reflects an entirely different tradition, which
> probably evolved in the Punjab and was incorporated in the Veda only during
> the acculturation that may be assumed to have taken place after the descent
> of the Rgvedic tradition from the Swat Valley. Epic Sanskrit, which contains
> a larger number of Dravidian loanwords than the Vedic texts, is likely to go
> back to the same 'Proto-Yajurvedic' dialect of Old Indo-Aryan".

I do not have the necessary expertise to comment on Prof. Parpola's views
on the yajurveda, nor have I read his work in detail, so I will say only
this much - A lot of assumptions go into the above passage, and the 
strength of the argument rests, in a very crucial sense, upon the strength
of the assumptions. 

Not that I doubt these assumptions entirely, but I think that in a fair
discussion, alternative assumptions must be considered and ruled out
for sound reasons, before one takes something for granted. 

> 
> What this seems to tell me is that the Yajur Vedic materials are a result of
> a combination of pre-Rg Vedic and Rg Vedic materials and as you indicated, I

What you consider to be pre-Rg Vedic could just be non-Rg Vedic, no? A
very strong case has to be made where chronology is concerned.

> should be talking about differences between 'Rgvedic' and 'tantric' materials
> instead of 'vedic' and tantric'. (What I was trying to do was using two
> 'onvenient' words to distinguish the cultural elements of the later Aryans

It is the very convenience of the words that I am afraid of. And why the
word 'tantric'? If 'vedic' in your original analysis has to be replaced
with 'Rgvedic', then 'tantric' might have to be replaced with 'non-Rg
Vedic', which is 'Vedic' nonetheless. In my opinion, 'tantric' only
confuses things even more, simply because the word has been attached to a
number of late texts and traditions, which can only be traced back to
medieval times. Bringing in a mature concept of 'tantra' to an analysis
of Rgveda and yajurveda seems far-fetched to me. 

I am always wary of a simple model that tries to fit a complex reality and
then tries to answer every aspect of a complex thing in terms of its own
simple paradigms. Yes, a simple model has its advantages, but along with
the merits of a simple model, one also has to recognize the limitations it
faces, precisely because of its simplicity.

> 
> As for CT attestation about chanting of the Vedas in Tamilnadu, they seemed
> to have done it very publicly. ParipATal 11 describes brahmins making 'havir'
> offerings in the fire on the banks of Vaiyai river and the brahmin girls
> warming themselves by the fire after bathing in the river in the month of
> 'tai'. (Of course, Manu classifies all Tamils, along with Chinese etc, as
> fallen Kshatriyas. So they might not have had as much reservation about the
> Tamils hearing the Vedas.) According to R. Ghose, to this day, verses from
> the Vedas (including rudram and camakam) are chanted in the TiruvArUr temple
> in a hall outside the sanctum sanctorum, which seems to me  to be a public
> place as well. So I do not know if the concept of secrecy was attached to
> vedas. But it will be good if other Indian groups characterized the vedas as
> secret texts.

One is not saying that the practitioners of the Vedic religion tried to
form an ultra-secret society like the KKK or something. All I am saying is
that in almost every religion, at least in the early days of its history,
there is a feeling of belonging to some sort of privileged group, with
access to some knowledge/practice that is not available to those outside
that group. And those outside the group do perceive them to be a closed
society. Look at the history of Mormons in the USA. Nowadays, there is not
much about them that is secret, although they still restrict access to
their church services, but there was a time when almost everything about
them was extremely secret.

Coming back to the Vedas in Tamil Nadu, it is not as if Brahmins would
only recite the Vedas in the privacy of their own homes, but they would
restrict access of Sudras to the places where they recited the Vedas. Do
remember that the inner precincts of the Tiruvarur temple were off-limits
to certain sections of society till fairly recently. 

As for maRai, well, you might have something there, but also keep in mind
that Tamils did not come into serious  contact with Christians till very
late. Words and their connotations change over time, and you have to show
that the common-man's conception of the word 'maRai' did not change in an
essential way over 2000 years or more, right from 1000 BCE (a conservative
estimate for the Vedas) to 1000 CE and later. 

Vidyasankar






From Sfauthor at aol.com  Sun Jun 15 19:18:46 1997
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 15:18:46 -0400
Subject: Fahrenheit 451 Clarification
Message-ID: <161227030979.23782.9716075339606515391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>I checked my copy of _Fahrenheit 451_, a book of essays written by Bradbury
>>and two reference books. None of them touch on feats of memory--just the
>>book-burning theme.
>
>That is strange. My reaction was based on the film version, which I saw on
>television some years ago. Maybe they made som changes!
>
>
>Wasn't the "feats of memory" part in the "Twilight Zone" episode based
>upon the story?


Sorry for the confusion. Memorization was integral to the novel and the
movie. What I meant was, I was unable to find an answer the question of where
Bradbury got the idea of having characters memorize entire books.

Truffaut made his movie of F451 in 1966. Don't know anything about the
Twilight Zone episode.


--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com






From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Sun Jun 15 20:26:03 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 15:26:03 -0500
Subject: Accent and Meaning
Message-ID: <161227030981.23782.6682992980765687176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


R.N. Dandekar's Vedic Bib. Vol. 1, page 84, lists an article by C. K. Raja
at the V All-India Oriental Conf. in Lahore, 1928: "The Relation of Accent
and Meaning in the Rig Veda."  I have those volumes, but the only article
therein by Raja concerns the relation of commentaries on the RV and Niruka
(e.g. saayaNa, maadhava, etc.).  Important material, of course, but not
absolutely germane to the topic on which I am focused.  If anyone knows
the wherabouts of this study--or similar studies--I would be most
appreciative. 

jrg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sun Jun 15 13:36:32 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 15:36:32 +0200
Subject: Telefonoppringning
Message-ID: <161227030966.23782.15751475330609717690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, members, this is a message to a person I can't reach othewise.

                              **********

Ville en svenske herren som ringte meg (jeg noterte dessverre ikke navnet)
v?re s? vennlig ? sende meg sin email-adresse? Jeg har noe mer informasjon.

Vennlig hilsen

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From apandey at u.washington.edu  Sun Jun 15 22:38:11 1997
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 15:38:11 -0700
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227030987.23782.4074180517101701566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:

> Sanskrit word "Ramaneeya" misspelt and Ireland is actually a corruption 
> of "Iyer"land,Morocco is a contraction of Hindi "Maaro Usko".....enough 
> PJs for a whole year!

Boy, you really opened up a can of worms here! Correct me if I am wrong,
but isn't "iyer" indeed a corruption of the word "arya"? And isn't the
root in the name Ireland a cognate of "arya", not to mention the root in
Iran as well. So, in a round-about way, Ireland really would be a 
corruption of "Iyer"land, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Anshuman Pandey






From mgansten at sbbs.se  Sun Jun 15 14:08:17 1997
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 16:08:17 +0200
Subject: Propitiating the Planets
Message-ID: <161227030968.23782.15410534485783829924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My profuse thanks to all who answered my query about the Illustrated Weekly
of India, and apologies for yet a cross-posting to the RISA and Indology lists.

This time I wonder if anyone could suggest sources (primary and/or
secondary) dealing with graha-shanti, i.e., the propitiation of planets as a
remedial measure against adverse astrological indications -- whether as
worship of the planetary deities per se, or of such main deities of the
pantheon as are represented by the planets (the moon = Parvati, etc; I
believe there are several such lists). The cult of the Navagrahas, and of
Saturn/Shani especially, seems to enjoy some importance in many temples,
notably in the South; has anyone written about it? All pointers to material
on this and related matters are much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Martin Gansten






From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Sun Jun 15 15:53:49 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 17:53:49 +0200
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227030973.23782.13915267025487856435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>A few remarks on the word Hindu = Sindhu etc.
>
>Hindu is not a Persian *misspelling* of Sindhu. It represents the natural
>phonetic development in ancient Iranian of the original *sindhu. In Awestan,
>initial *s becomes h in front of vowels.
>
>The words "indus, indikus (Latin) / indos, indikos (Greek)" must have come
>to Western Europe via Greek in the Hellenistic period. That is when the
>Greeks "drop their h'es". (I assume that if the word had entered Greek at an
>earlier stage, the Latin version might have been hindus, although this is
>strictly speaking not absolutely necessary). Consequently, Persian hindu-
>(the change from dh > d is also typical of Iranian) would become indo- in a
>Greek mouth. In this shape the word also got into Latin from Greek.

[Later corrected to: it *did* enter Greek at an early time but through
the Ionian dialect which lost its initial hs much earlier on than Attic]

In the same vein, can anyone explain the Hebrew name of India, "hodu"?
(That's the modern pronunciation. Originally it should be "hoddu" or "hodhu",
I don't remember which but I suspect it should be the latter; it can be found
in the Bible, in the first verse of the Book of Esther, for example)

And what about the origin of "sindhu" itself? (Meaning? Is it IA?)

Also, in a translation of one of the ashokan edicts (I don't remember
which one) I've seen the word "India" used (in translation; I haven't
seen the text) I was kind of surprised. Unfortunately the translator
who otherwise provided numerous notes, didn't deem this particular
item to be worth one.

Does anyone know by any chance what word that was and how its meaning
should be understood?







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 16 01:04:16 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 18:04:16 -0700
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227030993.23782.18114978601869787573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Anshuman Pandey writes:
>
>
>On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:
>
>> Sanskrit word "Ramaneeya" misspelt and Ireland is actually a 
corruption 
>> of "Iyer"land,Morocco is a contraction of Hindi "Maaro 
Usko".....enough 
>> PJs for a whole year!



>
 Correct me if I am wrong,
>but isn't "iyer" indeed a corruption of the word "arya"? And isn't the
>root in the name Ireland a cognate of "arya", not to mention the root 
in
>Iran as well. So, in a round-about way, Ireland really would be a 
>corruption of "Iyer"land, wouldn't it?
>
>Regards,
>Anshuman Pandey


Well, I am not very sure! According to "A history of Ireland" by
Robert Dunlop, Oxford University Press,we learn that the earliest 
reference to Ireland was in the 4th century, from a Roman text,
which in turn refers to a Greek text, which in turn was based
on a Phoenician text. This refers to the island as Heiru, from which
the word "Eire"(Irish for Ireland) was derived. Heiru translates
as "sacred island"( in phoenician).
QUESTION 1. Was Phoenician related to Sanskrit?

The word "Arya" translates as "belonging to the the faithful or
loyal race, reverend, honorable, also ones senior, used in reve
rential address"( according to A Sanskrit English Dcitionary by
Carl Capeller, Ginn and Company, Boston). We again come to the same 
question as we did yesterday( Yesterdays question was "Can Sarovar(lake) 
translate as "Sea"?{ which I may remark has not been answered 
satisfactorily})
QUESTION 2. Can "Noble/Reverend"(Arya) translate into Heiru ( sacred
land)?

 The two terms are related no doubt, but this by itself is no con
clusive proof of anything. We are making two assumptions about the
meanings and derivations of the words "Eire" and "Arya", which have
no STRONG connection.


As far as this Iyer from Arya business is concerned, has this theory 
been proved? I heard that the word Iyer is related to"Aiya"(Lord or
Superior), but does the word Aiya derive from Arya? I would wait for 
some expert in Tamil lexicology to attest to this. While this may seem
true at first sight, there have been cases where certain Tamil words
were supposedly derived from Sanskrit words, but a more detailed
investigation proves that the roots were pure Tamil words i.e. as
an example, it was supposed that the Tamil words "Ilakam" and "Ilakanam" 
are derived from Skt Lakshyam and LakshaNam respectively.
But some other Tamil scholar disproved this and showed that the roots
were pure Tamil words and had nothing to do with Sanskrit.

 Further, if you assume the root "Arya" for Iyer, I would like to know
as to what would be the root for the word "Iyengar"? The word "Iyer"
to refer to a Smartha Brahmin and "Iyengar" to refer to a Srivaishnava
Brahmin seem to be fairly recent and donont seem to have anything to do 
with the Tamil Brahmins being relate to the Aryans. If one were to
consult " The private diaries of Ananda Ranga PiLLai:Dubash to
Joseph Francois Dupleix"( running into 6 or 7 volumes), one would find 
that Ananda Ranga Pillai refers to most Smarthas as Srinivasa Sastri,
Krishna Sastri etc and uses the word "Ayyan" sparingly. In the same way, 
he refers to all Srivaishnavas as "Charyan" and not "Iyengar".
Ananda Ranga Pillai was born in 1709 and passed away in 1761.
Most books on 15th, 16th or 17th century Tamil NAdu donot use words
 like "Iyer" at all. I wouldn't be surprised if these words were 
invented later( like the present day Tamil nomenclature of
Place Name followed by Fathers name followed by Given name started only 
in the 18th century). 
 QUESTION 3. I would like to know as to how it has been
shown beyond doubt that "Iyer" is derived from "Arya" and if so,
how would derive the word "Iyengar" using analogous logic?

In my personal opinion, this whole theory is as credible as the one
presented yesterday by you-know-who (about Bindusarovara etc), which
if I be permitted to say, has more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese.


Krishna

P.S: It would be interesting to see if the word "worm" as in
"You opened up a can of worms" has anything to do with the Indian
family name "Varma/Verma"? Verma=Werma=Worma=Worms, howzzat?;-),;-)



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From jai at mantra.com  Mon Jun 16 10:47:32 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 00:47:32 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031004.23782.11743807650704621280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste!  At 11:17 AM 6/16/97 BST, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote:
>At 22:01 15.6.1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>>Namaste!
>>One observes that when persons such as the one whose
>>post appears below feel frustrated because, apparently,
>>they are not capable of discussing the subject at hand,
>>they resort to libel against others.  Is this the only
>>way they know how to feel good about themselves?
>>Pity, but help them.
>
>This is USENET stuff, and has no place on a serious mailing list!
>
>Make yourself capable of discussing the subject of scientific etymology by
>reading a basic textbook on historical linguistics (and allow me to
>recommend "Historical and Comparative Linguistics" by Raimo Anttila).  If
>you come back and show some real understanding of how the sound and meaning
>of words change, and of the complex interrelations of Iran and India, their
>cultures and languages, then maybe you will be taken seriously!
>
>Hint: as much respect as I have for the Words of the Buddha, or admiration
>for the art of the Yi Jing I sont look to them iot understand language
>change.  I look to the languages themselves!
>BPJ
>Sarvamangalam

The judgment "this is USENET stuff" is as objective a study
as another participant's "flights of fancy" froth.  Thus,
the contents of the list are indeed "USENET stuff" at the
hands of more than one person.  But to single one out for
target practice degenerates the list further, assuming that
"USENET stuff" is the low standard by which a so-called 
academician chooses to measures himself.  Dhanyavaad for
the foreign book recommendation, nevertheless. 

Jai Maharaj     http://www.flex.com/~jai     Om Shanti







From thillaud at unice.fr  Mon Jun 16 06:41:25 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 08:41:25 +0200
Subject: a can of worms
Message-ID: <161227030996.23782.7671540603762175324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 3:15 +0200 16/06/97, S Krishna wrote:
>P.S: It would be interesting to see if the word "worm" as in
>"You opened up a can of worms" has anything to do with the Indian
>family name "Varma/Verma"? Verma=Werma=Worma=Worms, howzzat?;-),;-)

	The eurindian names of the worm are apparently from three distinct
roots (perhaps related ?):
	- Indo-iranian, Baltic and Celtish:
	*kvRmi- > skr. 'kRmi-', lit. 'kirmis', irl. 'cruim', welsh 'pryf'
and fr. 'kermes' (name of the oak's worm who give the red colour
'vermillon' < lat. 'vermiculum') < esp. 'alkermes' < arabo-persian
'al-girmiz'), fr. 'cramoisi' (red colour, id.).
	- Germanic, Latin, Greek:
	*wRmi- > got. 'waurms', old eng. 'wyrm', eng. 'worm', germ. 'Wurm',
lat. 'vermis', fr. 'ver', 'vermine', gr. 'rhomos' (wood worm).
	-Greek:
	*wel(mi)- > 'helmis', gen. 'helminthos' (parasite worm), 'eulai'
(maggots).

	So, it's more probable Varma is coming from one of the two roots vR-.
	It's a name for kSatriyas ?

	Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Mon Jun 16 07:37:15 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 09:37:15 +0200
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227030998.23782.1808125613863655674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anshuman Pandey wrote:

>Boy, you really opened up a can of worms here! Correct me if I am wrong,
>but isn't "iyer" indeed a corruption of the word "arya"? And isn't the
>root in the name Ireland a cognate of "arya", not to mention the root in
>Iran as well. So, in a round-about way, Ireland really would be a 
>corruption of "Iyer"land, wouldn't it?

I hate to say this, but if Iyer is a corruption of aarya, then indeed, there
is a point! I believe that the native form of the name of Ireland, Eire, has
been connected with aarya, but this is debatable as far as I understand. As
for Iran,that is quite correctly a proper phonetic development of airyanam
(varsha).

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From athr at loc.gov  Mon Jun 16 15:17:14 1997
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:17:14 -0400
Subject: standin for Thrasher at LC
Message-ID: <161227031020.23782.18212111548697955634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think some people are approaching me for reference questions off of this
list.  For their sake I should have mentioned that in my absence June
18-July 21, which I posted Friday, reference inquiries will be handled by
our South Asian serials cataloger, Mrs.  Shantha Murthy at the email
address smur at loc.gov and at my telephone listed below. 

Allen W. Thrasher
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
LJ150
101 Independence Ave, S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4814
tel. (202) 707-3732
fax  (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov







From bpj at netg.se  Mon Jun 16 09:28:01 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:28:01 +0200
Subject: Quoting Clinton
Message-ID: <161227031002.23782.13709121942311058336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 23:57 15.6.1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>Namaste! At 11:44 PM 6/15/97 BST, Anshuman Pandey wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:
>> [...]
>>Boy, you really opened up a can of worms here! Correct me if I am wrong,
>>but isn't "iyer" indeed a corruption of the word "arya"? And isn't the
>>root in the name Ireland a cognate of "arya", not to mention the root in
>>Iran as well. So, in a round-about way, Ireland really would be a
>>corruption of "Iyer"land, wouldn't it?
>>Regards,
>>Anshuman Pandey
>
>Well, at least there is no dispute that "Canada" is
>a nothing but a Eurocentric bastardization of "Kannada". :)

Yes, but not of the Indian "Kannada", but of an Indian one! ;) <biting my
tongue, and disappearing around the nearest bend of imagination...>







From bpj at netg.se  Mon Jun 16 09:28:05 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:28:05 +0200
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031000.23782.1079221661271732208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 22:01 15.6.1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>Namaste!
>
>One observes that when persons such as the one whose
>post appears below feel frustrated because, apparently,
>they are not capable of discussing the subject at hand,
>they resort to libel against others.  Is this the only
>way they know how to feel good about themselves?
>Pity, but help them.
>
>Jai Maharaj     http://www.flex.com/~jai     Om Shanti
>

This is USENET stuff, and has no place on a serious mailing list!

Make yourself capable of discussing the subject of scientific etymology by
reading a basic textbook on historical linguistics (and allow me to
recommend "Historical and Comparative Linguistics" by Raimo Anttila).  If
you come back and show some real understanding of how the sound and meaning
of words change, and of the complex interrelations of Iran and India, their
cultures and languages, then maybe you will be taken seriously!

Hint: as much respect as I have for the Words of the Buddha, or admiration
for the art of the Yi Jing I sont look to them iot understand language
change.  I look to the languages themselves!

BPJ

Sarvamangalam








From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu  Mon Jun 16 16:34:13 1997
From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 12:34:13 -0400
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031025.23782.4061132732021417975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



> If modern
> Indians want to rehabilitate themselves of the effects of centuries of
> foreign domination they should stop trying to out-English the English,
> whining over lost glory, and instead do away with tribalism and amassed
> social stagnation and injustices and again prove in practice the potential
> of their great land and its inhabitants!
> 
> 'Nuf ranted. I've said what I got to say...
> 
> 
I wish you hadn't said what you said.  This sounds more
political than scholarly.  While there is tremendous ignorance
and lack of facts in the subcontinent, we need not advise
people what they may or may not do.  India is trying to
struggle and it needs help.  To claim that india has the
social stagnation and freedom rolls everywhere else, is
only an expression of self-righteousness.

As I have said before, my cultivation to Indology is
marginal.  And I appreciate the great work done by
the great scholars in unraveling the roots of India.
At the same time, it is necessary that we keep the
people out of Indology research, since it amounts to
reflecting on conduct, morality and sociology,
which are not necessarily the topics of interest for
this group.

thank you for listening..

- Bijoy Misra.
  






From thompson at jlc.net  Mon Jun 16 16:46:10 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 12:46:10 -0400
Subject: Orality etc.: references
Message-ID: <161227031029.23782.4748816351318806886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to Birgit Kellner for forwarding these references. Perhaps I can add
a few more that I alluded to but did not cite:

Frits Staal (1986): The Fidelity of Oral Tradition and the Origins of
Science. Mededelingen der Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van
Wetenschappen, AFD. Letterkunde, Nieuwe Reeks, Deel 49-No.8.
Impressionistic, but in my view provocative and important.

Johannes Bronkhorst (1989): Review of Frits Staal: The Fidelity of Oral
Tradtion and the Origins of Science..., in Indo-Iranian Journal 32. A
rather hostile review of Staal.

Paul Zumthor (1990): Oral Poetry: An Introduction, Univ. of Minnesota Press
[Eng. translation of 1983: Introduction ? la po?sie orale, ?ditions Seuil].
This is to my knowledge the most sophisticated treatment of oral poetics
that exists, though it does not deal extensively with problems of
transmission.

Best wishes,

George Thompson







From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk  Mon Jun 16 13:46:05 1997
From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 14:46:05 +0100
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031015.23782.7615238460213034299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am glad to see this thread elevated from the tangle it fell into 
earlier. But there is one thing that has always puzzled me:

	The ancient Iranians presumably did not have the sound-changes of
historical philology in their heads. So when they heard of the river
called Sindhu, why did they call it _hindu_ and not, say, *_sindu_ (since
Avestan and other ancient Iranian languages do have initial s, cognate
with the Sanskrit palatal fricative)? 

	Thieme, quoted in Mayrhofer's _Kurzgefasstes_, seems to be right 
in taking _hindu_ as a common noun, not as a place-name, whether or not 
he is right in interpreting it as 'the frontier'. It would then be 
understandable that they should use their own word rather than a foreign 
one of similar but different form.

	Or did the sound change s>h take place after the Iranians had 
settled in Iran and come to know the Indus by the name _sindhu_?

Dr Dermot Killingley
Dept of Religious Studies
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
Phone 0191 222 6730    Fax 0191 222 5185






From silk at wmich.edu  Mon Jun 16 18:59:07 1997
From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 14:59:07 -0400
Subject: International Journal of Hindu Studies holdings?
Message-ID: <161227031038.23782.2504016404915547089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wanted to order an article from the new International Journal of Hindu
Studies  vol. 1/1, but the library interlibrary loan folks tell me that no
library is listed yet as holding the journal.  Any help?  (The article I
want is Forsyth's on Ajatasattu).

Jonathan Silk
SILK at wmich.edu







From bpj at netg.se  Mon Jun 16 13:29:02 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 15:29:02 +0200
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031013.23782.9087188220184235649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:19 16.6.1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>Namaste!  At 11:17 AM 6/16/97 BST, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote:
>>At 22:01 15.6.1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>>>Namaste!
>>>One observes that when persons such as the one whose
>>>post appears below feel frustrated because, apparently,
>>>they are not capable of discussing the subject at hand,
>>>they resort to libel against others.  Is this the only
>>>way they know how to feel good about themselves?
>>>Pity, but help them.
>>
>>This is USENET stuff, and has no place on a serious mailing list!

[---]
>
>The judgment "this is USENET stuff" is as objective a study
>as another participant's "flights of fancy" froth.

[---]

I never claimed that judgment to be other than my opinion. The point is
that this is a forum where more judgment is deemed required in expressing
ones opinions, and more proof in ones 'objective claims' than what is
generally the case on USENET.  That's why you won't see my name on USENET,
btw.  If you like frothy arguments and loosely substantiated claims, then
enjoy USENET with my blessing, but please understand that different fora
have different requirements on proof. If your folk etymology of the word
"Hindu" has some kind of symbolic value to you, fine; it might even be
true, but it cannot be substantiated/proven in a scientific way.  If you
can find the word literarily written in stone in pre-muslim times and east
of the Indus I might reconsider, but NOT until then! It is notable that the
word doesn't appear through all the centuries of contest between Vedist and
Buddhist religion in India, either as a ethnic or as a religious or as a
geographical label.  The geographic term is invariably "aarya-bhuumi", or
something to that effect.  Only in dealings between Iranians and the Aryans
on the other side of Sindhu/Hindu river. FYI it is not uncommon that names
of peoples are xenonyms, since the peoples concerned wouldn't have had need
of a self-designation prior to contact with those that gave the name.

We may lament that historical fact not always fits nicely with our
religious or national pride (I for example have to admit that the Vikings
were a bunch of really nasty hooligans, and their religion was an appaling
barbarism, human sacrifices and all, and have to be ashamed as long as some
people glorify them and use them to their obscure ends), but by prefering
fabrication or unsubstantiated folktales to fact we harm the things we
purport to cherish.
        The greatness of ancient and medieval India is indisputable. It
doesn't need any fabricated fantasteries to prove itself.  If modern
Indians want to rehabilitate themselves of the effects of centuries of
foreign domination they should stop trying to out-English the English,
whining over lost glory, and instead do away with tribalism and amassed
social stagnation and injustices and again prove in practice the potential
of their great land and its inhabitants!

'Nuf ranted. I've said what I got to say...

BPJ







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 16 23:07:25 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 16:07:25 -0700
Subject: A question regarding the Bhagavadgeeta
Message-ID: <161227031043.23782.822594183436795166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members,

I am writing to you in regard to the following book:



Title : "Ancient Bhagavad Gita: original text of 745 verses, with          
critical introduction" 
Published : "United Social Cultural and Educational Foundation of
             India: University of Vedic Sciences, Hyderabad"
Author:       Dr E.Vedavyas

I would like to know your opinions about the arguements offered in this 
book and the authenticity of the extra verses provided by Dr Vedavyas in 
order to come up with a total of 745 verses. Dr Vedavyas
also contests the representation of certain verses as are available to
us now and changes parts of certain Shlokas. I would also like to hear
your reactions and responses with respect to these "modified" Shlokas.

Krishna




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Mon Jun 16 22:45:09 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:45:09 -0500
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031010.23782.4325903434108509778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My goodness, this is supposed to be a scholarly list, am I wrong. Before
starting the so much popular attempts of etymologizing "hindu" from
Sanskrit (it was even at the Bangalore conference!) as you don't like the
idea it would be from persian, or as you find it improbable, first check,
that:
the rules of phonetic change for Avestan for example show you clearly,
that the word Sindhu if an ancient Iranian was to pronounce it, had to
become Hindu.  (initial s- > h-  and loss of aspiration). So at least you
are bound to admit that there was a word Hindu in usage among the ancient
Persians (as they were of course not ignorant of the river named Sindhu in
sanskrit).  





Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________
Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007

e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
(valid till June 97 approx.) 






From francois at sas.ac.uk  Mon Jun 16 16:48:49 1997
From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:48:49 +0100
Subject: Mughal perfumes
Message-ID: <161227031027.23782.17625357252332320256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear Indologist,

I am researching problems related to the cultural history of sensation
accross during the 16th-17th centuries. I recently came accross a very
intriguing passage of the *The commentary of Father Monserrate, S.J. on
his journey to the Court of Akbar* (O.U.P., 1922), an account of the 1580s
Jesuit mission to the court of Akbar. The passage runs as follows: 

`The common report of the King's extraordinary kindness towards the 
priests prevented their meeting him, and they hence began to plan to 
remove their quarters into a house which was actually buildt against the 
palace wall ... [the King] ordered the ointments, perfumes and very 
numerous jars of scented waters to be conveyed out of that house into 
another; for the house (which the priest wanted) was used for the 
manufacturing and storing of ointments and perfumes, whence it was called 
the store-house of perfumes. The priests where reminded of the saying `we 
are Christ's sweet perfume'.' (p. 58).

I suspect that the Jesuits were keen on the house not only for its 
location, but also its perfume.

I would like to know where to look in order to find out whether
such a house was part of the typical anatomy of a Mughal palace and 
above all which types of perfumes were kept and for which use. 

With many thanks in advance.
 

Francois Quiviger
Warburg Institute
University of London






From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA  Mon Jun 16 21:52:54 1997
From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:52:54 -0400
Subject: International Journal of Hindu Studies holdings?
Message-ID: <161227031041.23782.13610663428406473329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Dear Jonathan,

Greetings, and thank you for yours.

I will send you a copy of the article. Please e-mail me your snail-mail
address. By the way, I am surprised that no library is listed yet as
holding the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, since most major
American universities have taken out a subscription! 

May I please request you to take a few minutes to recommend _International
Journal of Hindu Studies_ to your librarian for acquisition. Institutional
subscriptions are a key to success for the journal. Thanks. Full details
on the Journal, including ordering information, can be found on the IJHS
homepage at: <http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/>

With cordial regards,

in great haste,
sushil







From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Mon Jun 16 22:57:09 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:57:09 -0500
Subject: WHAT LISTSERV IS THIS? (was: India - Once Plentiful
Message-ID: <161227031012.23782.4096995571555384380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Couple of years ago, when I subscribed for the first time, this was a list
on CLASSICAL indology.  Could you please post such messeges as "India -
Once Plentiful" at another forum. I know about several others who have
problems with the volume of indology-l postings, so could this remain
concentrated on classical indology (and related matters)?  Or has this
become All-about-India-l  ?   Interestingly, those topics which are least
related to classical indology get the greatest number of replies, it seems
sometimes.


Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________
Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007

e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
(valid till June 97 approx.) 






From bpj at netg.se  Mon Jun 16 16:08:20 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 18:08:20 +0200
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031022.23782.15093799423188576921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 15:35 16.6.1997, D.H. Killingley wrote:
>I am glad to see this thread elevated from the tangle it fell into
>earlier. But there is one thing that has always puzzled me:
>

>
>        Thieme, quoted in Mayrhofer's _Kurzgefasstes_, seems to be right
>in taking _hindu_ as a common noun, not as a place-name, whether or not
>he is right in interpreting it as 'the frontier'. It would then be
>understandable that they should use their own word rather than a foreign
>one of similar but different form.
>
>        Or did the sound change s>h take place after the Iranians had
>settled in Iran and come to know the Indus by the name _sindhu_?
>

One of these explanations is probably correct (in fact *sindhu can mean
'frontier' AND the *s > h change take place after the Iranians came to know
the river so called, but that is beside the point). What is needed to prove
either is evidense of a word *sindhu 'frontier' in other I.E. languages,
and/or conclusive dating for the *s > h change in Iranian, which latter is
probably impossible to find.

BPJ







From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de  Mon Jun 16 17:05:03 1997
From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 19:05:03 +0200
Subject: Accent and Meaning
Message-ID: <161227031036.23782.9425388146500263852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, JR Gardner wrote:

> R.N.  Dandekar's Vedic Bib.  Vol.  1, page 84, lists an article by
> C.  K.  Raja at the V All-India Oriental Conf.  in Lahore, 1928:
> "The Relation of Accent and Meaning in the Rig Veda." I have those
> volumes, but the only article therein by Raja concerns the relation
> of commentaries on the RV and Niruka (e.g.  saayaNa, maadhava,
> etc.).  Important material, of course, but not absolutely germane to
> the topic on which I am focused.  If anyone knows the wherabouts of
> this study--or similar studies--I would be most appreciative.
 
The article you are referring to was not published in the
Proceedings, it appeared only in the "Summaries of Papers". I am
relying here on: 
	K.V. Sarma: Index of Papers submitted to the All-India
	Oriental Conference. Sessions I to XII (1919-1944). Poona
	1949, p. 127: "(summary) [Vol.] V, 23".
You will find a very sketchy bibliography of Kunhan Raja's works in the
Kunhan Raja Presentation volume of 1946. There are many contributions
to Vedic interpretation and/or commentators listed but at first sight
I couldn't find anything similar to "accent and meaning".

I am not sure if there was published a Kunhan Raja commemoration volume
(perhaps in Adyar Library Bulletin?), if it was it possibly contains a
better bibliography.

Hoping you'll find better references
Peter Wyzlic
--
Peter Wyzlic                                    pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de






From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Mon Jun 16 17:18:29 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 19:18:29 +0200
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031031.23782.14935617102971313747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>        The ancient Iranians presumably did not have the sound-changes of
>historical philology in their heads. So when they heard of the river
>called Sindhu, why did they call it _hindu_ and not, say, *_sindu_ (since
>Avestan and other ancient Iranian languages do have initial s, cognate
>with the Sanskrit palatal fricative)?
>
>        Thieme, quoted in Mayrhofer's _Kurzgefasstes_, seems to be right
>in taking _hindu_ as a common noun, not as a place-name, whether or not
>he is right in interpreting it as 'the frontier'. It would then be
>understandable that they should use their own word rather than a foreign
>one of similar but different form.
>
>        Or did the sound change s>h take place after the Iranians had
>settled in Iran and come to know the Indus by the name _sindhu_?

Wait a second, my understanding of (for example) Lars Martin's explanation
was that Iranian hindu was cognate to Indian sindhu, not that it derived
from it, although I can't go back an check.








From fo4a004 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de  Mon Jun 16 17:26:23 1997
From: fo4a004 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Burkhard Quessel)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 19:26:23 +0200
Subject: position in modern indo-aryan studies at hamburg university
Message-ID: <161227031034.23782.1603517073871935219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

we thought it would be a good idea to give the exact advertised text
concerning the above position:

UNIVERSITAET HAMBURG
Im Fachbereich Orientalistik
- Institut fuer Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets -
ist ab 01.10.1997 zu besetzen:

Eine Stelle, Kennziffer 1580/3
Universitaetsprofessor/in der Besoldungsgruppe C3
fuer "Sprache und Kultur des neuzeitlichen Indien"

Aufgabengebiet:
Vertretung  des  Faches  in  Forschung  und  Lehre.  Bewerber/innen 
muessen durch wissenschaftliche Publikationen zu Sprache und Kultur 
des neuzeitlichen lndien ausgewiesen und angesichts  des traditionellen
Hintergrundes  der  neu zeitlichen indischen Kultur zur Zusammenarbeit 
im Rahmen der Gesamtindologie bereit sein. Der Forschungsschwerpunkt 
der Bewerber/innen  soll  im Bereich der  neuindoarischen Sprachen 
und Literaturen liegen. Vertrautheit mit linguistischen und/oder 
literaturwissenschaftlichen Arbeitsmethoden und/oder  Interesse 
an religionswissenschaftlichen Fragestellungen sind erwuenscht.

Lehrverpflichtung:
8 Semesterwochenstunden

Einstellungsvoraussetzungen:
Gemaess ' 15 Hamburgisches Hochschulgesetz.
Besondere Faehigkeiten und Leistungen in der Lehre finden
Beruecksichtigung. 
Zu diesem Zweck sind Lehrerfahrungen und Vorstellungen zur Lehre
darzulegen.

Die Universitaet Hamburg strebt eine Erhoehung des Anteils von Frauen am 
wissenschaftlichen Personal an und fordert deshalb qualifizierte Frauen 
nachdruecklich auf, sich zu bewerben. Schwerbehinderte haben Vorrang vor 
gesetzlich nicht bevorrechtigten Bewerbern gleicher Eignung, Befaehigung 
und fachlicher Leistung.

Bewerbungen mit tabellarischem Lebenslauf sowie vorerst nur Schriften-
und Lehrverzeichnis und eine Darlegung der Lehrerfahrung und der
Vorstellungen zur Lehre werden unter Angabe der Kennziffer bis zum
16.7.1997 erbeten an den 

Praesidenten der Universitaet Hamburg,
Verwaltung/Personalreferat -332.11/12-
Moorweidenstr. 18
D-20148 Hamburg.





-- 
Burkhard Quessel
Institute for India and Tibet, Hamburg University
Neue Rabenstr.3, D-20354 Hamburg,  Germany
phone:  +49-40-41236268, fax: +49-40-41236267
e-mail: quessel at rrz.uni-hamburg.de





From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 17 04:47:03 1997
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 21:47:03 -0700
Subject: The Origins of Dome Architecture  (as in Mosques and Churches)     in  Ancient India
Message-ID: <161227031049.23782.390326130584785746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To 

Dear members of the Indology List

Sub: Is the Dome (over Mosques and Churches), India's Contribution to 
Arab and Western Architecture?
         
-----------------------------------------------------------------

In ancient times in India, there had been evolved a method of 
constructing interlocking domes. This technique was used mainly in the 
making of roofs for Buddhist Stupas in around 300 B.C. onwards i.e. 2300 
years back. The Stupa at Sanchi in Madhya Pradesh is one surviving 
example of this architecture. There are other examples of such  
architecture in other parts of India.

The style of interlocking structures had been perfected by the Romans in 
the interlocking arch which they used in constructing bridges and 
aqueducts. The Roman interlocking arch is a one-dimensional structure, 
but the interlocking dome is a three dimensional structure. Again, this 
was perfected in the days when we did not have cement or concrete. Hence 
the technique of constructing domed roofs which originated in ancient 
India 2,300 years back can be looked upon as a significant invention of 
humankind to defy the rules of gravity.

It is from this architectural style of the Buddhist Stupa that - the
Gumbaz - the Islamic style of constructing domed roofs on Masjids could 
have originated. And interestingly, while this architectural style 
totally disappeared from medieval and modern India as a symbol of 
indigenous architecture, it was preserved and popularised through 
Islamic architecture all over the Islamic world (as also in India in the 
mosques that were constructed during Muslim Rule).

The interlocking dome is reported to have gone from ancient India to
pre-Islamic Sassanian Persia, and from there further on to the Eastern
Roman (Byzantine) Empire  which had Constantinople (Istanbul of today) 
as its capital.

The famous Sophia (Selimiye) Mosque at Istanbul overlooking the 
Bosphorous straits which separate Europe from Asia in Turkey has domes 
which closely resemble the dome over a Buddhist Stupa. This mosque was 
originally constructed by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine as a 
Basilica of St. Sophia. The minarets were added in 1453 A.D. after the 
town came under the rule of the Ottoman (Uthman) Turks. Without the 
minarets, the structure would strongly resemble a Buddhist Stupa.

Another fact supporting the hypothesis that the Islamic style of 
constructing Gumbaz is borrowed from outside the Islamic world is that 
the center of the oldest and most holy mosque (Kaaba) at Mecca does not 
have a dome over it. It is only the mosques constructed later which have 
the dome as a roof.

Today the dome (Gumbaz) has become so stereotyped with mainly Islamic
architecture that it would be fantastic to claim that it could have
originated in ancient India or anywhere outside the Islamic world. The
Interlocking dome - called Anda (egg) in Sanskrit texts on architecture  
dates back to 2300 years; while Islamic architecture is 1400 years old, 
hence the probability that the Islamic style Gumbaz originated from the 
earlier Stupa architecture of ancient India.

Read more about this in the book  "INDIA'S CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD 
CULTURE".

Visit the home page for this book:

http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/index.html

This book aims to satisfy the urge of Indologists, and others who would 
like to know about the advances made in ancient India in the fields of 
science and technology and their transmission the world over.

I am looking for more such authentic references about the advances made 
in the construction of domed roofs in ancient India in:

1) Dictionaries and Encyclopedias

2) References to Indian architectural styles techniques in the 
chronicles of foreigners who visited ancient India

3) Similar references to India in current western literature (on the web 
too)

I want to continue this kind of study in association with those 
interested in ancient Indian History with specific reference to advances 
made in science and technology.

Please get in touch with me at <sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com>

Sudheer


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From bpj at netg.se  Mon Jun 16 20:28:43 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 22:28:43 +0200
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031040.23782.2092373269105694776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 18:25 16.6.1997, Bijoy Misra wrote:
>> If modern
>> Indians want to rehabilitate themselves of the effects of centuries of
>> foreign domination they should stop trying to out-English the English,
>> whining over lost glory, and instead do away with tribalism and amassed
>> social stagnation and injustices and again prove in practice the potential
>> of their great land and its inhabitants!
>>
>> 'Nuf ranted. I've said what I got to say...
>>
>>
>I wish you hadn't said what you said.  This sounds more
>political than scholarly.  While there is tremendous ignorance
>and lack of facts in the subcontinent, we need not advise
>people what they may or may not do.  India is trying to
>struggle and it needs help.

My statements should be seen in context and contrast to that which they
were ment to answer.  Bogus scholarship aimed at political ends surely
helps nobody.  I for one am convinced that scholarship no more than
anything else exists in some kind of ideological vacuum.  We better be open
about this fact.

>To claim that india has the
>social stagnation and freedom rolls everywhere else, is

I never claimed anything of the sort.  I've seen social stagnation on four
continents and live with it daily in northern Europe.

>only an expression of self-righteousness.

If I have offended you I beg your pardon.  I only spoke my heart wrt
certain postings to this list that were self-righteous, if anything is.

>
>As I have said before, my cultivation to Indology is
>marginal.  And I appreciate the great work done by
>the great scholars in unraveling the roots of India.

Me to.

>At the same time, it is necessary that we keep the
>people out of Indology research, since it amounts to
>reflecting on conduct, morality and sociology,
>which are not necessarily the topics of interest for
>this group.

What do you mean by 'keep the people out of Indology research'? That
Indology should be elitist, only open to an elite and only deal with elite
culture?  I doubt that anything useful can be said on anything that has to
do with culture if one is leaving out social issues.

Well, I know that I can be rather passionate sometimes.  I better stick to
linguistic matters -- hopefully a different passion with a clearer truth...

BPJ







From egge at midway.uchicago.edu  Tue Jun 17 04:24:58 1997
From: egge at midway.uchicago.edu (James Egge)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 23:24:58 -0500
Subject: Winword 97 diacritics-problems
Message-ID: <161227031048.23782.2358055819590862639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have also had difficulty with non-MS fonts and Word 7.0/Office 97, the 
biggest being that writing wraps around at the end of a line instead of 
breaking at word divisions.  Another problem I had was that I could not 
convert from non-MS fonts to MS fonts, but I got around this (I think by 
applying a template with the MS font).  I've been using Times New Roman 
with inserted Nina characters, which is not a bad looking solution if you 
use the TNR long vowels available from the extended character sets.

Some problems do stem from the fact that Office 97 does not want the same 
position used for different characters.  You may be able to get around some 
of your problems by applying a template.  Your problem with Courier just 
sounds bizarre!

At the suggestion of a  list member I contacted some folks at Microsoft and 
I received the following reply:

Hello, thanks for the email.

If you'll send me a list of the characters (or glyphs) needed I'll see
what I can do.

Do you ONLY care about transliteratation, or are you also interested in
display of Indic languages in their native scripts? I am working on a
project to enable this in a future version of Windows NT.

F. Avery Bishop
Complex Script Enabling
averyb at microsoft.com
206-703-3905

I am going to send him a list of characters that I would like to see, and I 
would appreciate it if you would take a look at it first.  I originally 
hoped to include characters for standard transliterations for all Indian 
languages, but I realized that this would involve too much research on my 
part.  Instead I want to cover only Vedic and classical Sanskrit, Pali, and 
other Prakrits.

Vowels:
R, L with small circle underneath
R, L with small circle underneath and A, I, and U: all five with macron 
(extended lists already include A, I, and U with macron)

All vowels should be available with acute and grave accents.
Ideally, vowels with macrons should also be available with combination of 
macron and cup/candra [what is this called?] indicating either long or 
short vowel.

Consonants:
T, D, N, S, M, L, H with dot underneath
N with dot above
S with acute accent (already included in extended lists)
N with tilde (already standard)

[Should the list also include m with candrabindu or does this indicate the 
same sound as m with dot?]

James Egge
University of Chicago
e-mail: egge at midway.uchicago.edu


-----Original Message-----
From:	Birgit Kellner [SMTP:kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp]
Sent:	Monday, June 16, 1997 12:20 PM
To:	Members of the list
Subject:	Winword 97 diacritics-problems

I have recently upgraded a computer to (Japanese) Windows 95 and find
that Winword 97 behaves quite erratically with my diacritics fonts. Two
problems:

(1) Previously, I used a slight modification of Norman-TTFs with Word 6.
I have transported some macros to Winwrd 97, which I use to convert my
documents into ASCII-diacritics-conventions (Kyoto-Harvard and such). I
find, now, when I run those macros which convert ASCII-documents into
(slightly modified) NORMAN-TTFs that certain characters just won't
display right. These are always the same characters, and I am starting
to suspect that Winword 97 has some secret rule about character
positions. Might this have anything to do with the lauded implementation
of Unicode? Or is it, again, a by-product of two-byte-encoding? Just to
stress this: Characters are rightly treated (I can search for them with
the correct ANSI-numbers), but not properly displayed. The only way to
get them right is by manually overwrite them ...

(2) I have transported a group of documents which share a template from
Winword 6 to Word 97. Some of the diacritics display as rectangles. Even
when I try to input them manually, they only come out as rectangles. The
character table displays rectangles in their position as well. The only
way to get them right is to manually paste them into the document from
some other file.

Is is possible that the modifications I have carried out with Norman
have resulted in low quality, and that the erratic behaviour described
above simply expresses Winword's contempt for my poorly designed fonts?

On top of all this, since yesterday, standard-viewing has decided to
display all fonts as Courier. The layout-mode displays as it should, so
what's wrong now?

I would really appreciate hints from other Word-users who may have had
similar experiences. Replies via privae e-mail are perhaps more
appropriate, I could then post information of general interest to the
list later on.

Thanks in advance.


--
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University



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M)][_Z+!6L)@0?X*_<&H at .1$GWO_XC_F?^J_$8YD at 5/]6#U<?]\14IAQVY41)
M8)A!)>2'`79)A^$#X5"-0"Z0;W!P^FC9%DBH-HQ)BDZ7IF2!$YAY6+9]`&0P
M`````P`0$ `````#`!$0``````,`@!#_____0 `',. HFMO4>KP!0 `(,. H
MFMO4>KP!"P``@ @@!@``````P ```````$8``````X4````````#``2 "" &
M``````# ````````1@````!2A0``MPT``!X`!8 (( 8``````, ```````!&
M`````%2%```!````! ```#@N, `#``: "" &``````# ````````1@`````!
MA0````````L`#X (( 8``````, ```````!&``````Z%`````````P`0@ @@
M!@``````P ```````$8`````$(4````````#`!& "" &``````# ````````
M1@`````1A0````````,`%( (( 8``````, ```````!&`````!B%````````
M'@`D@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-H4```$````!`````````!X`)8 (
M( 8``````, ```````!&`````#>%```!`````0`````````>`": "" &````
M``# ````````1@`````XA0```0````$`````````'@`]``$````%````4D4Z
/( `````#``TT_3<``):]
`
end






From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Mon Jun 16 14:33:52 1997
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 23:33:52 +0900
Subject: Winword 97 diacritics-problems
Message-ID: <161227031018.23782.14946669893717750562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have recently upgraded a computer to (Japanese) Windows 95 and find
that Winword 97 behaves quite erratically with my diacritics fonts. Two
problems: 

(1) Previously, I used a slight modification of Norman-TTFs with Word 6.
I have transported some macros to Winwrd 97, which I use to convert my
documents into ASCII-diacritics-conventions (Kyoto-Harvard and such). I
find, now, when I run those macros which convert ASCII-documents into
(slightly modified) NORMAN-TTFs that certain characters just won't
display right. These are always the same characters, and I am starting
to suspect that Winword 97 has some secret rule about character
positions. Might this have anything to do with the lauded implementation
of Unicode? Or is it, again, a by-product of two-byte-encoding? Just to
stress this: Characters are rightly treated (I can search for them with
the correct ANSI-numbers), but not properly displayed. The only way to
get them right is by manually overwrite them ...

(2) I have transported a group of documents which share a template from
Winword 6 to Word 97. Some of the diacritics display as rectangles. Even
when I try to input them manually, they only come out as rectangles. The
character table displays rectangles in their position as well. The only
way to get them right is to manually paste them into the document from
some other file. 

Is is possible that the modifications I have carried out with Norman
have resulted in low quality, and that the erratic behaviour described
above simply expresses Winword's contempt for my poorly designed fonts? 

On top of all this, since yesterday, standard-viewing has decided to
display all fonts as Courier. The layout-mode displays as it should, so
what's wrong now?

I would really appreciate hints from other Word-users who may have had
similar experiences. Replies via privae e-mail are perhaps more
appropriate, I could then post information of general interest to the
list later on. 

Thanks in advance. 


-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University




>?From letsch at nld.toolnet.org 16 97 Jun +0100 15:44:00
Date: 16 Jun 97 15:44:00 +0100
From: letsch at nld.toolnet.org (Mirjam Letsch)
Subject: Indian Widows + Multimedia


 * Original to: H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu (2:280/810.999)
 * Four carbon copies

Dear Members,

I have been and will be working on a 'multimedia presentation / publication' on
INDIAN WIDOWS. In very short, I plan to combine the results of anthropological
fieldwork, a literature study, slides/photography and video in a multimedia
production (apart from presenting the 'ingredients' separately).

In connection with this plan, I would be grateful for some help:

ON WIDOWS:

* I collect as much information (scientific, historical, novels etc.) on Indian
widows as possible. If you have references, that would be very helpful.

* I would like to have addresses of organizations (NGO's etc) in India working
for/with Indian widows. I would like to visit several organizations and learn
about their experiences.

ON MULTIMEDIA:

By combining text, graphics, images, souns, animation and video, multimedia can
provide a strong and efficient way of transmitting information. I would like to
know from people having experience in the field of multimedia, whether there
are good reference guides on multimedia productions.

Thanks in advance for your help,

With kind regards,

Mirjam



Mirjam Letsch
Schoterdijk 1
8538 RL Bantega
The Netherlands
e-mail: letsch at nld.toolnet.org





From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Mon Jun 16 14:38:35 1997
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 23:38:35 +0900
Subject: Orality etc.: references
Message-ID: <161227031017.23782.178171762481026992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have received a number of private e-mail-messages with reference to my
initial query. They contained the following references to publications
which I thought of general interest: 

Vasudha Narayanan (1984); The Vernacular Veda: Revelation, Recitation
and Ritual. Columbia: University of South Carolina Press (includes,
according to the author, descriptions of how the Tiruvaymoli is learned
and transmitted today). 

C. Mackenzie Brown (1986): Purana as Scripture: From Sound to Image of
the Holy Word in the Hindu Tradition." _History of Religions_ 26, no. 1
(1986) 68-86. (allegedly a critique of Ong). 

Olson, David, The World on Paper: The Conceptual and Cognitive
Implications of Writing and Reading, Cambridge Univ. Press, 1994

Cousins, Lance, "Pali Oral Literature" in Buddhist Studies Ancient and
Modern. London: Center of South Asian Studies, School of Oriental and
African Studies, 1983

Gethin, Rupert, "The MAtikas: Memorization, Mindfulness, and the List"
in The Mirror of Memory, ed. by Janet Gyatso State University of New
York Press, 1992, pp.149-172.

von Hinueber, Oskar. Der Beginn der Schrift und fruhe Schriftlichkeit in
Indien. Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur [Mainz],
Abhandlungen der geistes-und-sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse Nr. 11,
Wiesbaden,Steiner, 1989. 

Von Hinueber, Oskar. Untersuchungen zur Muendlichkeit frueher
mittelindischer Texte der Buddhisten.  Untersuchungen zur
Sprachgeschichte und Handschriftenkunde des Pali, Vol. 3 Akademie der
Wissenschaften und der Literatur [Mainz], Abhandlungen der
geistes-und-sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse, Vol. 5, Wiesbaden, Steiner,
1994. 

Regards, 
-- 
Birgit Kellner
Department for Indian Philosophy
Hiroshima University






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jun 17 03:55:24 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 23:55:24 -0400
Subject: Etymology of 'iyer' and may be even that of 'iyenkAr'
Message-ID: <161227031046.23782.8996474415687188896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-15 22:36:16 EDT, mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S
Krishna) writes:

<< As far as this Iyer from Arya business is concerned, has this theory 
 been proved? I heard that the word Iyer is related to"Aiya"(Lord or
 Superior), but does the word Aiya derive from Arya?  >>

Many otherwise excellent scholars have badly missed the mark when it came to
the etymology of Tamil words 'iyer'. The correct transliteration of the word
is 'aiyar'. It can be explained as
ai + y+ ar, where

ai  is the root
y is a glide
ar is a suffix marking plural or honorific singular.

The root 'ai' referred to persons held in respect or family elders. This root
'ai' by itself and in combination with different suffixes occurs in Classical
and post-classical Tamil literature.

Examples are:

by itself                                            'ai'        (paripATal
8.108)
with singular masculine suffix 'an'       'aiyan'   (kalittokai 43.5)
with singular feminine suffix    'aL'      'aiyaL'   (ainkuRunURu 255.3)
with singular feminine suffix    'ai'       'aiyai'    (akanAnURu 6.3)
with honorific/plural suffix       'ar'       'aiyar'   (akanAnURu 126.7)
with honorific/plural suffix       'mAr'    'aimAr'  (nAcciyAr tirumozi
6.9.1)

Some Tamil scholars in the past with their love for Indo-Aryan, derived it
from Sanskrit 'Arya' through  Pali 'ayya' without systematically looking at
all available evidence. Following them, western scholars who depend on
secondary sources have accepted their conclusion. Given the examples cited
above, it is clear 'aiyar' is a perfectly Tamil word. In Tamil, the British
scholar G. U. Pope is known as 'pOppaiyar'. I hope at least now the scholars
will give up the IA etymology.

As for, 'aiyankAr', my feeling is it is a hybrid word which has undergone
some changes. I remember long ago seeing an original form cited in a book as
'aiyanankakArar'. (I have forgotten the title of the book.) This can be split
into two components as:

aiyan + ankakArar

The first part is Tamil. The second part seems to be from Sanskrit 'anga'
'kAra' with the usual Tamil ending of 'r' occurring in words of Sanskrit
origin where the word-final 'a' serves as the 'a' in Tamil suffixes 'an' or
'ar'. The Sanskrit component may denote the ZrivaiSNavite practice of
applying symbols of ViSNu ('aiyan') on their limbs/body, i.e., those who have
applied (the symbols of) Lord ViSNu or 'aiyan' on different limbs/body. In
Tamil usage, 'ankam' (Sanskrit 'anga') may refer to the whole body also. The
loss of 'an', ka' and ar' may be due to haplology.


Regards

S. Palaniappan






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jun 17 05:04:50 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 01:04:50 -0400
Subject: Correction to "Etymology of 'iyer' and may be that of 'iyenkAr'"
Message-ID: <161227031051.23782.16373617490978819877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The suffix 'mAr' is just a plural marker. It does not have an 'honorific'
sense.

Regards

S. Palaniappan





From jkcowart at io-online.com  Tue Jun 17 08:09:02 1997
From: jkcowart at io-online.com (jkcowart at io-online.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 01:09:02 -0700
Subject: oral transmission: motivation and memorization
Message-ID: <161227031055.23782.14048663474436368323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 10:50 PM 6/13/97 BST, Frances Pritchett wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, J. Kingston Cowart wrote:

>>Capote had trained his memory for the interviews by memorizing the
>> entire phone book.

>The more I think about this, the more it sounds like a fascinating piece
>of urban folklore.  Maybe Mr. Cowart can give us more information?

This anecdote was presented during a television discussion of Capote's
peculiarities some time ago. I do not remember the specific program.

The veracity of the account could be checked by inquiring with Capote's
publisher and among book editors and reporters active at the time.  

Although subsequent postings attesting to the possibility of such feats 
would seem to obviate the need for inquiry, inasmuch as I brought the 
story into the thread I will see what I can come up with this summer if 
anyone is still interested in Capote per se.

The catch with respect to these purported incidents--and the issue of
oral transmission in particular--is that one must be careful not to accept 
them simply because one is motivated by a desire that they be true.  On 
the other hand one must be careful not to reject them simply out of the 
desire that they be false.

We may or may not be able to find witnesses regarding Capote.  How do 
we find them with regard to original oral transmissions of Sanskrit texts?  
We don't.

Nor is it easy to set up lab experiments to test these issues because the 
motivations and talents involved are either internal--and quite possibly 
idiosyncratic--to begin with, or are tied to cultural supports which are not 
transferrable to laboratory settings.  Typical field studies, for their
part,  
only show what is being handed down today.

If Capote's memory task actually occurred, then it represents an original
memorization--and the real test, were we able to devise it, would be how 
well sufficiently motivated successors transmitted it orally throughout 
subsequent generations.

It seems unlikely that either indologists or others will find a way to 
conduct a longitudinal field study like that--but it would be interesting.

J. Kingston Cowart
San Diego, California
<jkcowart at io-online.com>





From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu  Tue Jun 17 09:51:52 1997
From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 05:51:52 -0400
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031057.23782.1035903693133786463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote:

> 
> >At the same time, it is necessary that we keep the
> >people out of Indology research, since it amounts to
> >reflecting on conduct, morality and sociology,
> >which are not necessarily the topics of interest for
> >this group.
> 
> What do you mean by 'keep the people out of Indology research'? That
> Indology should be elitist, only open to an elite and only deal with elite
> culture?  I doubt that anything useful can be said on anything that has to
> do with culture if one is leaving out social issues.
> 

No, never.  Not to exclude anyone's research interest,
but not to make general remarks from cursory observations
of local conditions of people.  To study why a condition
what it is is one thing, and then to make a value judgment
is another thing.  The latter goes in the realm of politicians,
social reformers or even religious activists. On the
other hand, to understand any simple condition what is would 
consume a life time work.  It's good that we have begun..

- BM






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jun 17 11:15:50 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 07:15:50 -0400
Subject: Correction to "Etymology of 'iyer' and may be even that of 'iyenkAr'"
Message-ID: <161227031059.23782.2639751890256530912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, it looks like my original posting did not go through. Here it is
again.

The suffix 'mAr' is just a plural marker. It does not have an 'honorific'
sense.

Regards

S. Palaniappan





From Hrid at aol.com  Tue Jun 17 11:19:47 1997
From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 07:19:47 -0400
Subject: Etymology of 'iyer' and may be even that of 'iyenkAr'
Message-ID: <161227031062.23782.16116547895025793501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


In a message dated 6/17/97 9:49:17 AM, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

>Some Tamil scholars in the past with their love for Indo-Aryan, derived it
>from Sanskrit 'Arya' through  Pali 'ayya' without systematically looking at
>all available evidence. Following them, western scholars who depend on
>secondary sources have accepted their conclusion. Given the examples cited
>above, it is clear 'aiyar' is a perfectly Tamil word. 
	I appreciate the above, but am still not clear as to why the root ai cannot
possibly be an IA derivative, rather than a "perfectly Tamil word".
Sincerely,
Howard J. Resnick 






From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Tue Jun 17 05:51:43 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 08:51:43 +0300
Subject: Sindhu
Message-ID: <161227031053.23782.6531946635598197703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

_sindhu_ meant not only the River Indus, but "river" in general, and "sea".
It is retained in Shina as _sin_, "river" (from *_sind_, which has been
borrowed into Burushaski as _sende_). Checking in Turner's _Dictionary of
the Indo-Aryan Languages_, I can not find it with any other meanings except
	river
	Indus river
	ocean
	province of Sindh
Perhaps an Iranianist can elucidate.

With best wishes,

Ruth Schmidt


>>        The ancient Iranians presumably did not have the sound-changes of
>>historical philology in their heads. So when they heard of the river
>>called Sindhu, why did they call it _hindu_ and not, say, *_sindu_ (since
>>Avestan and other ancient Iranian languages do have initial s, cognate
>>with the Sanskrit palatal fricative)?
>>
>>        Thieme, quoted in Mayrhofer's _Kurzgefasstes_, seems to be right
>>in taking _hindu_ as a common noun, not as a place-name, whether or not
>>he is right in interpreting it as 'the frontier'. It would then be
>>understandable that they should use their own word rather than a foreign
>>one of similar but different form.
>>
>>        Or did the sound change s>h take place after the Iranians had
>>settled in Iran and come to know the Indus by the name _sindhu_?
>
>Wait a second, my understanding of (for example) Lars Martin's explanation
>was that Iranian hindu was cognate to Indian sindhu, not that it derived
>from it, although I can't go back an check.



***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no







From sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au  Mon Jun 16 23:35:43 1997
From: sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au (Sugandha Johar)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 09:35:43 +1000
Subject: Indian Widows + Multimedia
Message-ID: <161227031044.23782.14555529321893433849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 05:32 PM 6/16/97 BST, you wrote:
>
> * Original to: H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu (2:280/810.999)
> * Four carbon copies
What do you mean when you say Indian Windows? I am doing research on Indian
Archaeology, and in the end am interested in creating a multimedia
presentation on it. Does that interest you ?

Sugandha



>Dear Members,
>
>I have been and will be working on a 'multimedia presentation /
publication' on
>INDIAN WIDOWS. In very short, I plan to combine the results of
anthropological
>fieldwork, a literature study, slides/photography and video in a multimedia
>production (apart from presenting the 'ingredients' separately).
>
>In connection with this plan, I would be grateful for some help:
>
>ON WIDOWS:
>
>* I collect as much information (scientific, historical, novels etc.) on
Indian
>widows as possible. If you have references, that would be very helpful.
>
>* I would like to have addresses of organizations (NGO's etc) in India
working
>for/with Indian widows. I would like to visit several organizations and learn
>about their experiences.
>
>ON MULTIMEDIA:
>
>By combining text, graphics, images, souns, animation and video,
multimedia can
>provide a strong and efficient way of transmitting information. I would
like to
>know from people having experience in the field of multimedia, whether there
>are good reference guides on multimedia productions.
>
>Thanks in advance for your help,
>
>With kind regards,
>
>Mirjam
>
>
>
>Mirjam Letsch
>Schoterdijk 1
>8538 RL Bantega
>The Netherlands
>e-mail: letsch at nld.toolnet.org
>
>
>





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Tue Jun 17 17:14:25 1997
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 10:14:25 -0700
Subject: Accent and Meaning
Message-ID: <161227031076.23782.24619437953131997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, JR Gardner expressed interest in gaining access to an
article by
C.  K.  Raja read at the V All-India Oriental Conf.  in Lahore, 1928: "The
Relation of Accent and Meaning in the Rig Veda." Peter Wyzlic informed on
16 Jun that the article was not published in the Proceedings, it appeared
only in the "Summaries of Papers" and referred to some sources in which a
bibliography of Kunhan Raja's works is likely to be found.  One should also
note in this context that this last January a conference to celebrate the
centenary of Kunhan Raja's birth was held in Kerala. Information on his
writings is likely to have been collected at that time. Contact:  Dr. N.P.
Unni, Vice Chancellor, Sree Sankaracharya University of Sanskrit, Kalady,
Kerala.  One of the most versatile Sanskritists of our time, Dr. Kunjunni
Raja, Adyar Library and Research Centre, Theosophical Society,
Madras/Chennai 600 020, is a nephew of Kunhan Raja. If the latter's Lahore
paper remained unpublished, Kunjunni Raja may be able to locate its
manuscript or typescript.







From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk  Tue Jun 17 11:19:35 1997
From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 12:19:35 +0100
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031061.23782.1086511525123298002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

That was the point of my query. Usually when a place-name is adopted by
foreigners, they form a derivative of the indigenous name. But in this
case, the Iranians seem to have used a cognate, not a derivative. 

Dr Dermot Killingley
Dept of Religious Studies
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
Phone 0191 222 6730    Fax 0191 222 5185

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:

> >        The ancient Iranians presumably did not have the sound-changes of
> >historical philology in their heads. So when they heard of the river
> >called Sindhu, why did they call it _hindu_ and not, say, *_sindu_ (since
> >Avestan and other ancient Iranian languages do have initial s, cognate
> >with the Sanskrit palatal fricative)?
> >
> >        Thieme, quoted in Mayrhofer's _Kurzgefasstes_, seems to be right
> >in taking _hindu_ as a common noun, not as a place-name, whether or not
> >he is right in interpreting it as 'the frontier'. It would then be
> >understandable that they should use their own word rather than a foreign
> >one of similar but different form.
> >
> >        Or did the sound change s>h take place after the Iranians had
> >settled in Iran and come to know the Indus by the name _sindhu_?
> 
> Wait a second, my understanding of (for example) Lars Martin's explanation
> was that Iranian hindu was cognate to Indian sindhu, not that it derived
> from it, although I can't go back an check.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From thillaud at unice.fr  Tue Jun 17 11:41:07 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 13:41:07 +0200
Subject: sindhu
Message-ID: <161227031064.23782.15761703306540357927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	Dear Indologist,
	I'm sorry to write in French, but I 'm very busy with universitary
year's end ...

	Le mot 'sindhu' ne semble pas avoir de formes eurindienes liees,
mais son sens n'est pas dans le meme cas: je crois qu'il faut partir du
double sens ocean/fleuve et y voir l'ocean primordial dont tous les fleuves
sont issus, lui-meme un fleuve sans debut ni fin: rassemblement de toutes
les eaux (terrestres et celestes) comme l'indique bien son equivalent
'samudra'.
	On a une bonne correspondance mythique avec le grec 'Okeanos' qui,
lui aussi, a ete attribue comme nom a un grand fleuve tel que le Nil. Les
deux president par barattage et ecume a la naissance de SrI/LakSmI et
d'Aphrodite et sont consideres comme des 'peres'.
	Ceci me conduit a penser que l'equivalence entre sindhu et le
fleuve Indus doit etre secondaire et qu'il n'y a pas lieu d'en tirer de
conclusions (frontiere ou autre) sur l'origine du nom, le Sindh n'etant
alors que le Pays du Fleuve. Bien que la racine sidh- 'aller' paraisse un
peu artificielle, elle irait dans le sens d'une distinction entre les flots
qui tombent brutalement du Ciel, qui s'enflent avec l'orage et qui sont en
Grece lies a la racine de patati (adj. diipetes = *divi-patas, potamos ?)
et les flots qui coulent 'en douceur' (voir le mythe de la descente du
Gange freinee par Shiva), plus alimentes par la fonte de neiges lointaines
que par des averses violentes.
	On a deja remarque que les fleuves donnes par Hesiode (T. 337-345)
comme les fils d'Okeanos sont de grands fleuves meme lointains (Nil, Po,
Danube, etc.) mais que sa liste ne comporte aucun fleuve beotien, sa propre
patrie!
	Malheureusement, les noms des grands fleuves sont souvent obscurs
et, a moins de voir dans gaGgA un rapport avec gam-, et dans Istros (nom
grec du Danube) un emprunt scythe (*sisdh- ?), hypotheses tres
'flottantes', il y a de fortes chances que sindhu reste sans explication ...

	Amicalement,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Tue Jun 17 20:52:52 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 13:52:52 -0700
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227031081.23782.15399288091654486773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Anand Venkt Raman wrote:

> So used did I eventually get to using the new terminology that I
> started using dy over dx for dy/dx for them later only to be surprised
> that was still called "dy by dx"!
> 
> Is this difference purely an Australasian phenomenon or is it also
> observed in America and Europe?

It is very much an American phenomenon also. Many Indian grad student
teaching assitants barely make sense to undergraduates here when they
use by and over in ways they are used to in India. However, none of my
American friends has been able to explain why dy by dx is not dy over dx!

Vidyasankar






From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Tue Jun 17 15:57:29 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 15:57:29 +0000
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227031067.23782.5293273963928724057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mon,  9 Jun 1997 Ruth Laila Schmidt asked:
>
>Dear colleagues,
>
>Has anyone seen children's arithmetic textbooks which have the numerals 
>in
>Urdu characters or Devanagari characters? The ones I have seen all use
>western numerals even if the text is in Urdu or Hindi.
>
>Also, has anyone seen any arithmetical signs (plus, minus etc.) used in
>textbooks which are not the western variety?
>
>Thanks for the information.
>
>Ruth Schmidt
>
>
Well,I have not seen any children's arithmetic textbooks, but still have 
something to contribute. In the 1950s Raghu Vira headed a committee 
developing modern scientific terminology for Hindi and the results were 
published in a series of dictionaries and glossaries. Years ago I saw 
one of them including a number of mathematical (not only arithmetic) 
terms and formulas in Hindi/Devanagari.
Klaus
P.S. I have no references at hand and have to rely on my memory.






From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Tue Jun 17 16:08:16 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 16:08:16 +0000
Subject: Tin (Ancient India's Contribution)
Message-ID: <161227031068.23782.5876914612604592733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thu, 12 Jun 1997 Dominique.Thillaud wrote:
>
>At 6:49 +0200 12/06/97, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>>
>>- the making of tin (the technical English word for tin
>>is Cassiterite which is derived from the Sanskrit term
>>"Kasthira" according to the Oxford Dictionary).
>>
>	That's highly improbable. The Indian word for tin is trapu (AV) and
>kastIra, appearing only in lexicography, is borrowed from the Greek
>kassiteros (Hom.), perhaps via the Latin cassiterum. According are
>Mayrhofer (KEWA) and Chantraine (DELG). (Eurindian common origin is
>impossible, the Greek 'k' is palatalized in Sanskrit)
>
>	Regards,
>Dominique
>
>Dominique THILLAUD
>Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France
>
>
>
A few years ago I was pointed out by the late Dr. Claes Wennerberg of 
Gothenburg that there is actually one text reference for kastIra, in 
Jagaddeva's "Traumbuch" (ed. Negelein). But this is late, too, and it 
has been suggested (by Kern or Speyer, I think) that kastIra was 
actually derived from Arabic. The unfortunate preference for kastIra as 
ancient word and perhaps even as origin of Greek kassiteros hails from 
the pioneers of Western Indology, but is occasionally still quoted 
through some uncritical intermediaries (see my India in Early Greek 
Literature). As noted by Dominique, the real Indian word is trapu (cf. 
Rau, Metalle). The origin of Greek kassiteros is not clear, but in any 
case Greeks obtained their tin from the West, not from India where the 
metal seems always been scarce. In early Roman period the Periplus 
actually mentions tin and lead among imports of India.
Klaus 






From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Tue Jun 17 16:16:21 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 16:16:21 +0000
Subject: Ancient India's Contribution to Modern Civilization
Message-ID: <161227031070.23782.3367867619708489509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Having already deleted the messages I cannot give exact references, but 
someone rightly pointed out the importance of the Hobson-Jobson by Yule 
and Burnell, and some other the importance of finding out the first (and 
not necessarily English) reference for words borrowed or supposedly 
borrowed from India. For this the little known (recently reprinted, but 
very expensive) Portuguese counterpart of the Hobson-Jobson, the 
extensive Glossario Luso-Asiatico by S. R. Dalgado offers interesting 
material.
Klaus






From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Tue Jun 17 16:33:47 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 16:33:47 +0000
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031072.23782.10541100022781258377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Philip, Lars and others have already said most about this question and I 
have only to add a couple of remarks. It really seems that "in this
case, the Iranians seem to have used a cognate, not a derivative" 
(Killingley). With Avestan hapta hendavah (cf. sapta sindhavaH) and Old 
Persian Hindu (= the Indus country) I think we cannot separate the 
Iranian word from Sindhu as a name of the Indus river (though sindhu can 
also be a river in general and even sea). From this came Greek (and then 
Latin etc.) words for both the Indus and India. Through the Achaemenids 
the name was also adopted in such languages as Akkadian, Elamite, 
Egyptian, Aramaic (HendA) and Hebrew (Hoddu in Esther, I Maccabees and 
later). A colleague familiar with Semitic linguistics informed that the 
change from nd to dd is a typical Hebrew development. From Iranian came 
also Arabic Hind. As to "HindusthAna", I fail completely to understand, 
how it should be somehow negative that the Iranians had words referring 
to their neighbours.

Klaus

P.S. I have discussed the development sindhu-hindu-Indus,India in an 
article published in the Cracow Indological Studies 1. Proceedings of 
the International Conference on Sanskrit and Related Studies 1993. 
Cracow 1995, p. 151-163.






From kumarm at felixstowe.em.slb.com  Tue Jun 17 15:12:21 1997
From: kumarm at felixstowe.em.slb.com (Manoj Kumar Mishra)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 17:12:21 +0200
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227031074.23782.6580429646650189574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Mon,  9 Jun 1997 Ruth Laila Schmidt asked:
> >
> >Dear colleagues,
> >
> >Has anyone seen children's arithmetic textbooks which have the numerals 
> >in
> >Urdu characters or Devanagari characters? The ones I have seen all use
> >western numerals even if the text is in Urdu or Hindi.
> >
> >Also, has anyone seen any arithmetical signs (plus, minus etc.) used in
> >textbooks which are not the western variety?
> >
> >Thanks for the information.
> >
> >Ruth Schmidt

Yes. In fact I learned all my arithmetic using the textbooks with Hindi
Numarals.
And about arithmetic signs, we used +, -, x, /. But we also used a
different kind of sign for division. I do not know if that sign is of
Indian origin or Western origin.

Manoj



----- End Included Message -----







From srini at engin.umich.edu  Tue Jun 17 21:45:20 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 17:45:20 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227031084.23782.6283939789175244967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Jacob >> Re the influence of writing on the transmission of 
Jacob >> the Samaveda, I have read of cases of interference
Jacob >> of writing, in that the musical value of certain
Jacob >> signs in the manuscripts was misinterpreted, which in
Jacob >> turn seems to show that the recitation was learned at
Jacob >> least in some cases from the written down version.
 
Jacob >> Does anyone know what I am talking about? 

I think you are referring to the "old" and "new" schools of 
Samavedic chant in Tamil Nadu.

The "old" school, also called the composite style of North Arcot 
or the MuLLaNtiram school, had cadjan leaf manuscripts which used
ka-ca-Ta syllable notation for the gAnAs.  Since these notational 
syllables were printed inline with the gAnas themselves, a student 
following the written gAnas without the guidance of a teacher was 
likely to include these syllables too in the course of his chant.

So, a Krishnaswami S'rautigal of TiruvaiyyAru went to Poona and 
copied the Saman texts available there with the numeral notation 
of the Northern Kauthumas, and printed it in Grantha characters.  
He then took it to Kumbakonam to the Sankaracharya of KAmakoti 
pITham for approval... but, it was decided that the Poona method 
cut up and dissected the musical phrases beyond all recognition
and was therefore useless.  However, the printed book prevailed
in the Southern (i.e. Tanjore/Tiruchi) districts, while the North 
Arcot, Kanchipuram pATas'AlAs stuck to the prAcIna school.

Wayne Howard's book "Samavedic Chant" (Yale Univ Press, 1977)
has this info, taken from a lecture given in 1957 by a T.K.
Rajagopala Iyer... but does not mention the timeframe when this
happened... I believe it is from the end of the 19th century. 
______________________

In a more recent article in the Journal of the Indian Musicological
Society (~ 1989),  Wayne Howard and L.S.Rajagopalan have reported
on the prAcIna Kauthuma Samavedic chant among Tamil Brahmins of 
Palghat District... which is on the verge of extinction.  These
Tamil Brahmins migrated a long while ago, mainly from the Tanjore 
region (apparently, Vaideesvaran Koil in Tanjore Dt is the place from
where most of the initial migrants hailed).  

When one of the followers of this style chanted before the late 
ParamAcArya of Kanchi Kamakoti Pitham in the 80s, the AcArya is 
supposed to have been very pleased and honored him personally, 
while remarking that the chanter's style was the prAcIna one
reportedly prevalent in Tanjore a while ago, and that the present 
style in Tanjore was a modified one... he jokingly referred to the 
navIna style of chanting as Ramanna sAman, after one Ramanna who 
was responsible for it.
__________________________

Jacob >> On the other hand there do seem to be traditions which
Jacob >> do not use (have never used?) writing at all, for example
Jacob >> Nambudiri Samavedins.

Klaus >> Thet learn their Vedas by heart, but in fact they do have 
Klaus >> manuscripts, too, and have had quite a some time (centuries, 
Klaus >> at least). Nambudiris have been literally very active and 
Klaus >> composed, in addition to works belonging to other genres 
Klaus >> of literature, commentaries to their own Vedic texts.

Wayne Howard reports that the Jaiminiya Samavedic tradition has
been strictly oral, and that they are not acquainted with any
system of notation... in direct contrast to Kauthumas of the
North with their numeral notation, Kauthuma-Ranayaniyas of the 
South with their syllable notation, and Tamil Jaiminiyas with
their syllable notation (and manuscripts in both Malayalam and
Grantha scripts).

This suggests that they at least don't have manuscripts of the
Jaiminiya grAmageyagAna and other songbooks. 
_________________

-Srini.





From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jun 18 04:59:31 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 18:59:31 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031088.23782.18394360391692120237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 5:07 AM 6/18/97 BST,
Peter Sargent <Sargent_P at mediasoft.net> wrote:
>Since Jay Stevens is, as usual, posting under the assumed name 
>of Dr. Jai Maharaj . . .

Above, Peter Sargent has written a total falsehood.  One
wonders what his motivation might be.  At least it is clear
to me that it cannot be a positive contribution to this list.
If anyone is interested in learning about me, the only official
FAQ link resides at 

 http://www.flex.com/~jai/FAQ/jaifaq.html

All others in circulaton are malicious falsehoods, not unlike
the behavior of this Peter Sargent whoever he may be.
Now two members of this list have committed libel.  What does the
list owner and moderator think about that?  For, if this sort
of behavior is what the readers of this list want I will behappy to advertise this fact to Internet community.  If not, then some
policy addressing this matter, in my opinion, needs to be
published as a guide.

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jun 18 05:02:39 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 19:02:39 -1000
Subject: Deciphering the Indus Script
Message-ID: <161227031090.23782.12216653320784845983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Deciphering the Indus script

By K. V. Raman
The Hindu
June 10, 1997

Courtesy of the Hindu Vivek Kendra

The Indus Age - The writing system: Gregory L. Possehl: Oxford and IBH
Publishing Co. Pvt.  Ltd., 66, Janpath, New Delhi.  Rs. 750.

Professor Gregory Possehl is one of the leading authorities on the Indus Civilisation, and he has spent long years in the exploration of the Indus settlements both in India and Pakistan and authored several significant works like Indus Civilization in Saurashtra and Ancient Cities of the Indus(Edited). This volume is the first of the four books written by him on the Indus Age, the other three being on "The beginnings" the "Mature Harappan" and the "Transformation". Taken together they will form a comprehensive overview of the ancient cities of the Indus from the village forming communities through the transformation and eclipse of the civilisation.

This book is not another attempt at decipherment of the elusive writing
system which was in use for 600 years (2500-1900 B.C.) It is an in-depth
survey of the nature of Indus writing and a critical review of the most
prominent decipherment efforts. He frankly states that all attempts made
so far are "to be judged as failure at least in so far as can be proved by
independent tests." This may be seen as a counterpoint to the claims of
decipherment but there are many positive sections in the book to locate
where there is a consensus and what might be done to move forward for a
full decipherment.

The first chapter provides an introduction to the Indus civilisation and
its writing system. Based on the latest excavation and carbon-datings, he
defines six phases or stages in its rise and fall starting from the
farming communities and pastoral camps as seen in sites like Kili Ghul
Mohammed (7000-5000 B.C.); stage two, developed village communities
(4300-3200 B.C.); stage three marks the early Harappan (3200- 2600 B.C.):
stage four, the early-mature Harappan transition (2600-2500 B.C.); stage
five, mature Harappan (2500-2000 B.C.): stage six, late and post-Harappan,
ranging in date from 2000 to 130011000 B.C. He describes the
socio-cultural components, technology of the stages.

One of the interesting observations, Possehl makes is the absence of any
monumental religious architecture with the possible exception of the Great
bath at Mohenjodaro. The pyramids of dynastic Egypt and the ziggurats of
Mesopotamia have no parallel in the Indus valley. Also conspicuous by
absence is the palace indicating the absence of a king or a
self-aggrandizing institution and Individuals. However, he cites evidence
to observe that the Harappans were deeply involved in worship and ritual
but their religion was expressed in ways different from the Egyptian or
Mesopotamian civilisation.  "This is an important contrast to the
socio-cultural system of the archaic states and the Harappan civilisation
may not fail within that form of organisation."

In the second chapter he gives an excellent description of the various
materials on which the Indus inscriptions are to be found like seals of
different categories like stamp, cylinder, round, bar and the seal
impression, sealings and pottery.  He cautions that each class has its own
place and message and must be seen as a functional part of its context.
These glyptic materials should not be mixed as it would blur and distort
the content.

He next discusses the characteristic features of the Indus script like the
total number of signs, sign frequency, pictographs, direction of writing
and the language family of the Indus system. He agrees with Iravatham
Mahadevan that the normal direction of the script was from right to left
(forming 83.23 per cent of the total inscription). The presence of
hundreds of signs suggests that the writing system was based "on syllables
or something akin to them and is neither alphabetic or logographic."

Regarding the origin of the script. he examines the various findings and
states it has to be traced only to the mature Harappan phase though the
possibilities of the presence of the prototypes in the transitional period
from the early to the mature Harappa can be recognised (e.g. Amri).  This
short period of development contrasts with the long history of the
development of writing in Mesopotamia. Another intriguing feature is that
no scholar has detected any change or development in the writing system
over 500 years of the mature Harappan indicating "that once codified it
remained frozen in forms."

A very significant part of this book is the detailed critique of all the
most important efforts (about 3 5) made by various scholars for the
decipherment of the Indus script.  It has a long history right from the
pioneers like Stephen Langdon, L. A. Waddel, G. R. Hunter, Father Heras to
the recent computer-based decipherments like those of the Soviet team
(1965) and the Finnish team headed by S. Parpola and P. Alto and scholars
like I. Mahadevan (1972), S. R. Rao (1982), Waiter A. Fairservis Jr.
(1989). Some of them are serious and scientific in their approach.  Many
are based on "faith, revelation, guesses and unexplained methods."

The various theories regarding the script that have emerged are that it is
close to Sumerian; Sumer-Elam; Etruscan; close to Easter Island script;
proto-Elamite, proto-Dravidian, Indo-European, Aryan or proto-Vedic,
progenitor of the Brahmi script.  There are also theories that the Indus
writings are all numerical signs and that they are tantric codes and are
simply records of properties or receipts. Possehl gives a chronological
sequence of these decipherments, their methodologies (or lack of them) and
his own valuable comments and critical assessment of each one of them.  He
also gives the reviews of these readings made by other scholars like K. V
Zvelebil's review of the decipherment of the Soviet and Finnish teams and
I. Mahadevan's review of S. R. Rao's readings.  All these make the volume
very interesting and thought-provoking study, which would be extremely
useful for students and researchers in the disciplines of archaeology,
palaeography and linguistics.

Equally valuable is the last chapter, where he outlines some common
ground, shared conclusions and the emerging patterns from all decipherment
efforts.  Following Kamil Zvelebil, he states, "The script is to be read
from right to left with occasional instances of left to right: use of
extensive suffixes but no prefixes or infixes: it is a logo syllable
writing, not alphabetic: it is not closely related to other writing
systems of second and third millennium B.C. although some convergence
might be found with proto-Elamite: it is not-related to any later Indian
script like Brahmi or Kharoshti; it is not likely to have been a written
form of an Indo-European language since it lacks prefixes and infectional
endings; not likely to be written of a West Asiatic language except a
poorly understood relationship to Elamite and last but not least none of
the proposed decipherments can he proved to be true."

He lists some problems that need attention like intensive study of certain
working hypotheses, for instance, its relationship to proto-
Elamo-Dravidian family or proto-North Dravidian family: the rebus
principle as a tool. the structural analytical approach. All these
hypotheses "need to be confirmed by independent work" on a more sustained
scientific basis. Among the drawbacks in the present stage of research,
according to him, are the lack of agreement on the number of signs in the
Indus script.  Now, just about anything is fair game and the claims are
mostly nothing but guesses.  He stresses the need for sign list and the
need to study the writing system in its various cultural contexts (e.g. B.
M. Pande's analysis of copper tablets and Frank-Vogt's analysis of bangle
inscription).

What is the test for the correctness of a claim of decipherment?  His
answer is the appearance of an exemplar with a substantial bilingual
inscription, one in Indus script, the other in a writing system that could
be read would settle this.  "In the absence of this, the test is
ultimately going to rely on meaningful and consistent patterns and
concepts that unfortunately elude precise definition.  The hard and sad
reality is that except for the concordances, we are nowhere nearer
decipherment than G. R. Hunter was in 1929."

Courtesy of the Hindu Vivek Kendra

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jun 18 05:28:27 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 19:28:27 -1000
Subject: Tin (Ancient India's Contribution)
Message-ID: <161227031096.23782.13092241397717694838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste! At 6:17 AM 6/18/97 BST, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>My arguement for the derivation of the Greek word Kassiteros and the 
>English Cassiterite from the Sanskrit Kasthira is based on the 
>references to the import of Tin from India by Rome as mentioned in the 
>Periplus. According to the Periplus, tin was used for hardening copper. 
>The Periplus also mentions Copper as an item of export from India. 
>
>Other examples of metals smelted first in India could be . . .

I do recall that National Geographic published similar information
a few years ago.  I will look it up and post an excerpt.  Along
the same train of thought, it should be noted that the "tinning"
process commonly used on the interior of kitchen utensils has 
ancient Bharatiya roots.

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Tue Jun 17 18:41:45 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 20:41:45 +0200
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031077.23782.2460459676723440171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Through the Achaemenids
>the name was also adopted in such languages as Akkadian, Elamite,
>Egyptian, Aramaic (HendA) and Hebrew (Hoddu in Esther, I Maccabees and
>later).

(I'm just nitpicking but) this is the first time I hear of a Hebrew
version of I Maccabees.

As long as we're dealing with names for India, any conjectures out
there as to the etymology of "meluhha" the Sumerian name for India?







From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 18 05:03:53 1997
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 22:03:53 -0700
Subject: Tin (Ancient India's Contribution)
Message-ID: <161227031093.23782.17877863035282704868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Klaus,

My arguement for the derivation of the Greek word Kassiteros and the 
English Cassiterite from the Sanskrit Kasthira is based on the 
references to the import of Tin from India by Rome as mentioned in the 
Periplus. According to the Periplus, tin was used for hardening copper. 
The Periplus also mentions Copper as an item of export from India. 

Other examples of metals smelted first in India could be Corundum 
(crystallised aluminium oxide). This word is derived from the Sanskrit 
Kuruvinda. Nowshadder (chloride of ammonium) is another not very 
familiar term which is said to have been derived from the Sanskrit 
Narasara. 

Philostratus of Lemnos, in about 230 A.D. has mentioned a shrine in 
Taxila (Taskhashila) in northwestern India (today in Pakistan). In this 
shrine Philostratus says were hung pictures on copper tablets 
representing the feats of Alexander and Porus (or Paurava - the Indian 
king who resisted Alexander). In the words of Philostratus "The various 
figures were portrayed in a mosaic of orichalcum, silver, gold and 
oxidised copper, but the weapons were in iron. The metals were worked so 
ingeniously into one another that the picture that they formed was 
comparable to that of the best Greek artists."(Periplus of the Erythrean 
Sea P 151).

Simlar references have been made by Ktesias the Knidian who was the 
Greek ambassador at the court of Darius the king of Achamenian Persia.

All said and done smelting technology (and in fact all culture and 
civilization) the world over is a result of give and take.

Regards

Sudheer
---------

>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Tue Jun 17 07:05:45 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
mail.liv.ac.uk
>          with Local-SMTP (PP); Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:22:56 +0100
>Message-Id: <1BB13D027B at elo.helsinki.fi>
>Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:21:54 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
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>Precedence: bulk
>From: Klaus Karttunen <KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi>
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Tin (Ancient India's Contribution)
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>X-Comment: Indology mailing list
>
>Thu, 12 Jun 1997 Dominique.Thillaud wrote:
>>
>>At 6:49 +0200 12/06/97, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>>>
>>>- the making of tin (the technical English word for tin
>>>is Cassiterite which is derived from the Sanskrit term
>>>"Kasthira" according to the Oxford Dictionary).
>>>
>>	That's highly improbable. The Indian word for tin is trapu (AV) and
>>kastIra, appearing only in lexicography, is borrowed from the Greek
>>kassiteros (Hom.), perhaps via the Latin cassiterum. According are
>>Mayrhofer (KEWA) and Chantraine (DELG). (Eurindian common origin is
>>impossible, the Greek 'k' is palatalized in Sanskrit)
>>
>>	Regards,
>>Dominique
>>
>>Dominique THILLAUD
>>Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France
>>
>>
>>
>A few years ago I was pointed out by the late Dr. Claes Wennerberg of 
>Gothenburg that there is actually one text reference for kastIra, in 
>Jagaddeva's "Traumbuch" (ed. Negelein). But this is late, too, and it 
>has been suggested (by Kern or Speyer, I think) that kastIra was 
>actually derived from Arabic. The unfortunate preference for kastIra as 
>ancient word and perhaps even as origin of Greek kassiteros hails from 
>the pioneers of Western Indology, but is occasionally still quoted 
>through some uncritical intermediaries (see my India in Early Greek 
>Literature). As noted by Dominique, the real Indian word is trapu (cf. 
>Rau, Metalle). The origin of Greek kassiteros is not clear, but in any 
>case Greeks obtained their tin from the West, not from India where the 
>metal seems always been scarce. In early Roman period the Periplus 
>actually mentions tin and lead among imports of India.
>Klaus 
>
>



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From Sargent_P at mediasoft.net  Wed Jun 18 04:58:58 1997
From: Sargent_P at mediasoft.net (Peter Sargent)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 23:58:58 -0500
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031086.23782.11189241858138702201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 03:24:28PM +0000, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote:
> At 12:19 16.6.1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> >Namaste!  At 11:17 AM 6/16/97 BST, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson wrote:
> >>At 22:01 15.6.1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> >>>Namaste!
> >>>One observes that when persons such as the one whose
> >>>post appears below feel frustrated because, apparently,
> >>>they are not capable of discussing the subject at hand,
> >>>they resort to libel against others.  Is this the only
> >>>way they know how to feel good about themselves?
> >>>Pity, but help them.
> >>
> >>This is USENET stuff, and has no place on a serious mailing list!
> 
> [---]
> >
> >The judgment "this is USENET stuff" is as objective a study
> >as another participant's "flights of fancy" froth.
> 
> [---]
> 
> I never claimed that judgment to be other than my opinion. The point is
> that this is a forum where more judgment is deemed required in expressing
> ones opinions, and more proof in ones 'objective claims' than what is
> generally the case on USENET.  That's why you won't see my name on USENET,
> btw.  If you like frothy arguments and loosely substantiated claims, then
> enjoy USENET with my blessing, but please understand that different fora
> have different requirements on proof. If your folk etymology of the word
> "Hindu" has some kind of symbolic value to you, fine; it might even be
> true, but it cannot be substantiated/proven in a scientific way.  If you
> can find the word literarily written in stone in pre-muslim times and east
> of the Indus I might reconsider, but NOT until then! It is notable that the
> word doesn't appear through all the centuries of contest between Vedist and
> Buddhist religion in India, either as a ethnic or as a religious or as a
> geographical label.  The geographic term is invariably "aarya-bhuumi", or
> something to that effect.  Only in dealings between Iranians and the Aryans
> on the other side of Sindhu/Hindu river. FYI it is not uncommon that names
> of peoples are xenonyms, since the peoples concerned wouldn't have had need
> of a self-designation prior to contact with those that gave the name.
> 
> We may lament that historical fact not always fits nicely with our
> religious or national pride (I for example have to admit that the Vikings
> were a bunch of really nasty hooligans, and their religion was an appaling
> barbarism, human sacrifices and all, and have to be ashamed as long as some
> people glorify them and use them to their obscure ends), but by prefering
> fabrication or unsubstantiated folktales to fact we harm the things we
> purport to cherish.
>         The greatness of ancient and medieval India is indisputable. It
> doesn't need any fabricated fantasteries to prove itself.  If modern
> Indians want to rehabilitate themselves of the effects of centuries of
> foreign domination they should stop trying to out-English the English,
> whining over lost glory, and instead do away with tribalism and amassed
> social stagnation and injustices and again prove in practice the potential
> of their great land and its inhabitants!
> 
> 'Nuf ranted. I've said what I got to say...
> 
> BPJ
> 
> 
> 

Since Jay Stevens is, as usual, posting under the assumed name of Dr.
Jai Maharaj, it might be useful, before expending more scholarly energy
on his contributions to this list, to consult his curriculum vitae,
the "Jai Maharaj FAQ," at http://www.loop.com/~taxi/jayfaq.txt. It's
an Internet classic and will cast some light on what's been happening 
here.

Peter







From HFArnold at aol.com  Wed Jun 18 05:30:48 1997
From: HFArnold at aol.com (HFArnold at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 01:30:48 -0400
Subject: Agni
Message-ID: <161227031098.23782.7250275923059644040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe that Agni is now being published by Motilal Banarsidas. If this is
so, it would not appear in Books in Print, which does not seem to cover
Indian publications. You might try South Asia Books, the U.S. distributors
for MLBD.





From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz  Tue Jun 17 19:20:02 1997
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 07:20:02 +1200
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227031079.23782.10396013956709196802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>And about arithmetic signs, we used +, -, x, /. But we also used a
>different kind of sign for division. I do not know if that sign is of
>Indian origin or Western origin.

Speaking of arithmetic, I have noticed while helping my neices
and their classmates in NZ and Australia that a/b is called a over
b and not a by b as I was accustomed to by my Indian training.
Likewise a*b is called a times b instead of my a into b. In fact
the nomenclature I am used to seems to mean quite the opposite, "by"
seeming to imply "multiply by" and "into" meaning "divided into"!

So used did I eventually get to using the new terminology that I
started using dy over dx for dy/dx for them later only to be surprised
that was still called "dy by dx"!

Is this difference purely an Australasian phenomenon or is it also
observed in America and Europe?

If the difference is due to inversion of meaning due to Indians, I
wonder what the historical or linguistic reasons could have been for
it?

- &






From eshyjka at dc.isx.com  Wed Jun 18 12:12:32 1997
From: eshyjka at dc.isx.com (Elisabeth Shyjka)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 08:12:32 -0400
Subject: Languages for studying Indology
Message-ID: <161227031103.23782.3349432342592421062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I hope that no one will find this question too inappropriate. I have only
been a member of the list for a short time.

I am interested in studying Indology and the evolution of Christianity in
India particularly. I already speak some Tamil and plan on taking Hindi.
However, I have not yet located a program in the Washington, DC area which
offers it. Many of the MA programs I am interested in recommend or require
3 years in a South Asian language and reading knowledge of another language
for reading papers written in that language. Does anyone have a
recommendation as to what language would be most appropriate? I currently
have an extensive knowledge of Danish and a High School level knowledge of
French.


Please direct any responses to me directly ateshyjka at dc.isx.com.



Thank you,

Elisabeth Shyjka
 







From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA  Wed Jun 18 13:59:59 1997
From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 09:59:59 -0400
Subject: Intl Trust for Traditional Medicine (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227031107.23782.13490213639749890376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:57:58 +1000
From: "T.Matthew Ciolek" <tmciolek at coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Intl Trust for Traditional Medicine


----------------- forwarded message ----------------------

Dear Dr. T. Matthew Ciolek,
we would be grateful to you if you would kindly carry the following news
item within your Virtual Library on homepages related to Tibetan and/or
Asian Studies.
Thanking you.
Sincerely

Barbara Gerke
(Principal Trustee)
International Trust for Traditional Medicine (ITTM)
Vijnana Niwas, Madhuban
Kalimpong 734 01
West Bengal
India


NEWS:
Tri-lingual Encyclopaedic Database of
Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine
A long-term project
initiated by
International Trust for Traditional Medicine (ITTM)
Vijnana Niwas, Madhuban
Kalimpong 734 01
West Bengal
India
phone: 0091-3552-56459
e-mail: Barbara Gerke [Barbara at scs.lwbbs.com] or Sorin Suciu
[sorins at hotmail.com]

assisted by:

Berhampur University Linguistic Association (BULA)
Gouri Shankar Mahapatro, Secretary General,
Sastri Nagar (near Zanana Hospital)
Berhampur 76001
Orissa
Phone: 0091 - (0)680 - 204088; Fax: 022322


We welcome scholars & researchers to assist us in preparing a
comprehensive
Tri-lingual Encyclopaedic Database - Sanskrit, Tibetan, English -
on the traditional medical cultures of India and Tibet.

This project started in 1996 and, at this initial stage, aims to compile
1. A Bibliographic Database of Sanskrit and Tibetan Medical Literature
and
2. A Glossary Database of Sanskrit and Tibetan Medical Terms with their
English Equivalents.

To avoid duplication of time and effort we would like to make use of
international networking!

You may like to support the project by sending already available
electronic data of:
1. bibliographies of original Sanskrit and Tibetan medical literature
and
2. glossaries and lexicographic works including Sanskrit and Tibetan
medical terms (including materia medica).

All contributions will be gratefully acknowledged in the project.

You may send available data to: Sorin Sociu [sorins at hotmail.com]
or in simple text format on 3.5 floppies by registered mail to:
Barbara Gerke, Principal Trustee, ITTM, Vijnana Niwas, Madhuban,
Kalimpong 734 301, West Bengal, India.

The Trust also welcomes book donations on Tibetan and Ayurvedic
medicine, Tibetan & Sanskrit Studies and allied areas.

We also welcome qualified Sanskrit & Tibetan language scholars and
medical practitioners  to join the project in India on a voluntary
and/or contractual basis. We provide food & lodging and work facilities
at the ITTM Headquarters "Vijnana Niwas", situated on a quiet hillside
3km outside Kalimpong town at an altitude of  around 4000ft., in
Darjeeling District, Eastern Himalayas. Researchers will have the
opportunity of getting lexicographic computer training at ITTM as well
as related travel and library exposure within India.

For details  kindly contact:
Barbara Gerke, Principal Trustee, ITTM, Vijnana Niwas, Madhuban,
Kalimpong 734 301, West Bengal, India.
Requests for participation may be sent along with C.V. to the same
address.



--------------- forwarded message ----------------


-==================================================-
Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK           tmciolek at coombs.anu.edu.au
Head, Internet Publications Bureau
Research School of  Pacific & Asian Studies      http://coombs.anu.edu.au/
The Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200
ph +61 (0)6 249 0110          fax: +61 (0)6 257 1893
-=================================================-


#  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #
See also the award winning
TIBETAN STUDIES WWW VIRTUAL LIBRARY
http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVL-TibetanStudies.html
#  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #  #

to unsubscribe from the list send e-mail
to: majordomo at coombs.anu.edu.au
message:  unsubscribe Tibetan-Studies-L <your e-mail address>






From bpj at netg.se  Wed Jun 18 09:47:39 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 11:47:39 +0200
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227031101.23782.17594740610308970611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 20:18 17.6.1997, Anand Venkt Raman wrote:
>>And about arithmetic signs, we used +, -, x, /. But we also used a
>>different kind of sign for division. I do not know if that sign is of
>>Indian origin or Western origin.
>
>Speaking of arithmetic, I have noticed while helping my neices
>and their classmates in NZ and Australia that a/b is called a over
>b and not a by b as I was accustomed to by my Indian training.
>Likewise a*b is called a times b instead of my a into b. In fact
>the nomenclature I am used to seems to mean quite the opposite, "by"
>seeming to imply "multiply by" and "into" meaning "divided into"!
>
>So used did I eventually get to using the new terminology that I
>started using dy over dx for dy/dx for them later only to be surprised
>that was still called "dy by dx"!
>
>Is this difference purely an Australasian phenomenon or is it also
>observed in America and Europe?
>
>If the difference is due to inversion of meaning due to Indians, I
>wonder what the historical or linguistic reasons could have been for
>it?

When learning English in 4-5 grade in Sweden I was taught the same system
as you were taught in India.  When later going to school in Canada I had to
relearn the same system as your niece, and US people use that universally
too AFAIK.

The Swedish language terminology seems to be a mixture: we say (translated
into English) a/b 'a through b' OR 'a divided by b' and a*b 'a times b'.
It seems my stepkids are unfamiliar with the 'through' version, except as
one of my oddities, that is :-)

Philip







From fmg3u at server1.mail.virginia.edu  Wed Jun 18 17:42:07 1997
From: fmg3u at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Frances Garrett)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 13:42:07 -0400
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227031111.23782.14188750356746185232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Another modern day example of the below is the Baul 
singers of Bengal. Their songs, particularly the class 
of Baul songs called /deho tatto/ (philosophical songs 
about the body), contain a large enough percentage of 
archaic vocabulary that even educated Bengalis cannot 
understand the songs very well. Authentic Baul 
singers, who are largely illiterate (or at least 
living as part of an illiterate culture, meaning that 
although they are able to read, they don't, except 
when necessary) still compose songs using this archaic 
vocabulary. The fact that well-read Bengalis do not 
understand the songs suggests that it not simply a
literary form of Bengali used in the songs but rather 
a vocabulary that is genuinely archaic (I can't read 
Bengali myself so haven't been able to confirm this 
first-hand)--if others on this list can confirm this, 
I'd be interested.

Frances Garrett
Dept. of Religious Studies
University of Virginia



On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:12:54 BST Allen Thrasher 
<athr at loc.gov> wrote:

> I think I could have expressed myself more clearly.  I was speculating
> (not asserting) that the brahmans did not merely preserve archaisms in the
> hymns of the Veda, but continued to use productively a whole earlier stage
> of language (without the use of a codified and taught grammar to do so).
> In other words, they might have been able to orally compose hymns in a
> form of language much older than what they spoke in, and perhaps even the
> language of the Brahmanas was older than what they spoke in in everyday
> use, but they still were able to produce in it.  It would be rather as if
> the singers of the old ballads in the Appalachians were not merely able to
> continue using older forms of speech in their songs, but were able to
> compose new ballads in Middle English or even Anglo-Saxon.  In other
> words, I was speculating, is it possible to preserve an ancient form of
> speech in an illiterate society without preserving verbatim the
> compositions in that speech?
> 
> I seem to recall, but couldn't locate the reference for the life of me,
> that some group of Southwest Native Americans uses in some religious
> contexts forms of speech that seem radically archaic to the scholar who
> studied them in comparison to their regular speech and even to most of
> their religious speech.  If so , would it be necessarily a matter of
> memorizing verbal formulae, or of retaining an ancient form of speech
> fully productively in certain contexts?  
> 
> Allen W. Thrasher
> 










From bprecia at colmex.mx  Wed Jun 18 23:08:24 1997
From: bprecia at colmex.mx (Benjamin Preciado)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 14:08:24 -0900
Subject: Univ. address.
Message-ID: <161227031113.23782.14467145674784724189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members
recently it appeared a posting announcing a new University in 
the USA. I am not sure if it is called Hindu University or 
something like that, it is in Stony Brook NY. Is there any one 
who could give me the address?
Thanks

Benjamin Preciado
Center for Asian and Arican Studies
El Colegio de Mexico.





From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Jun 18 12:31:36 1997
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 15:31:36 +0300
Subject: Arithmetic in Urdu or Hindi?
Message-ID: <161227031105.23782.15266774382872004720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to everyone who replied to my query about arithmetic in Urdu or
Hindi.

Best regards,

Ruth Schmidt


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no







From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Jun 18 16:25:20 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 17:25:20 +0100
Subject: Mac version of Charles Wikner's Devanagari-for-TeX.
Message-ID: <161227031109.23782.14810453650321642698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dr Yasuhiro Okazaki has very kindly made available to INDOLOGY users a
ready-compiled Mac version of Charles Wikner's Sanskrit system for TeX.

The file is called wikner-skt-mac.binhex and is available from
   ftp.ucl.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software
or
   http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html
   under "Supplementary Archive".



All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu  Thu Jun 19 03:57:55 1997
From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 19:57:55 -0800
Subject: oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227031120.23782.7101479927432862074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) wrote:

> In re-reading Richard Salomon's recent article "On the Origin of the Early
> Indian Scripts: A Review Article" [in JAOS 1995 and on the Indology web
> site], I notice that there is a possible reference to writing in Panini
> ("lipi" in 3.2.21).  Beyond this disputed reference, much of the discussion
> centers on possible references in the Pali canon [e.g. the verb likh- and
> its derivatives] and in general the conclusions of von Hinueber and Falk
> appear to be rather negative about the existence of writing before, say,
> the 3th century BCE.
> 

Of course, they must mean evidence of writing prior to the 3rd century BCE
*outside of the Harappan script.*

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala





From thompson at jlc.net  Thu Jun 19 00:51:17 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 20:51:17 -0400
Subject: oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227031118.23782.940528579427425084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In re-reading Richard Salomon's recent article "On the Origin of the Early
Indian Scripts: A Review Article" [in JAOS 1995 and on the Indology web
site], I notice that there is a possible reference to writing in Panini
("lipi" in 3.2.21).  Beyond this disputed reference, much of the discussion
centers on possible references in the Pali canon [e.g. the verb likh- and
its derivatives] and in general the conclusions of von Hinueber and Falk
appear to be rather negative about the existence of writing before, say,
the 3th century BCE.

With regard to Vedic in particular let me quote a rather lengthy passage
from Salomon:

"Can we
believe that these dynasties with their legendary riches, and the remarkable
intellectual and cultural life of India in the time of the Buddha and
Mah?v?ra, existed in a totally illiterate sphere? It is certainly true that
intellectual activity in India has always strongly favored oral over written
means of expression, and both von Hin?ber and Falk have effectively put to
rest the already discredited skepticism about the possibility of oral
composition and preservation of the Veda, P?.nini's grammar, etc. (see e.g..
Falk pp.321--7). But the fact that P?.nini did not use writing in composing
the A.a.t?dhy?y? does not necessarily mean that he was illiterate (cf. Falk
p.259); it may only mean that writing was not considered an appropriate
vehicle for intellectual endeavors of his kind. Even given the very
different cultural role of writing in India as compared to many other
ancient civilizations, it is hard to conceive that practical affairs such as
the keeping of records and accounts in a fabulously wealthy empire like that
of the Nandas could have been kept in order without any form of writing at
all, or at least without some alternative system of memory-aids like the
Inca quipu. Thus one is tempted to think along the lines of William Bright
(cited by Falk, p.290) of some type of writing that was "perhaps used for
commercial purposes, but not for religious or legal texts."[15]

Johannes Bronkhorst, whose critique of Staal I have cited already, has
argued [in _Indo-Iranian Journal_ 1982] that the RV padapATha was probably
written, and thus was probably "the oldest surviving written book in India"
[p.186].

I wonder whether any of these scholars has attempted to reconcile these
clearly contradictory positions.

Also, an appeal to the list: having poor library access, I have not been
able to obtain relevant articles and books [esp. those published in
European countries]. I would be grateful to anyone who has easy access to
these, who would be willing to make photocopies of them to forward to me. I
would be happy to compensate for copying and mailing costs, as well as
reciprocating by barter or trade [for example for hard to get American
books].

Best wishes,
George Thompson







From D.Plukker at inter.NL.net  Wed Jun 18 21:00:31 1997
From: D.Plukker at inter.NL.net (D.Plukker at inter.NL.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 23:00:31 +0200
Subject: Univ. address.
Message-ID: <161227031115.23782.16786136235938041188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear list members
>recently it appeared a posting announcing a new University in 
>the USA. I am not sure if it is called Hindu University or 
>something like that, it is in Stony Brook NY. Is there any one 
>who could give me the address?
>Thanks
>
>Benjamin Preciado
>Center for Asian and Arican Studies
>El Colegio de Mexico.
>
Centre for India Studies/Stony Brook Foundation,
E5350 Library, SUNYSB, Stony Brook,
NY 11794-3386

e-mail: indstudy at sunysb.edu

Yours,

    Dick Plukker
    India Institute, Amsterdam






From thompson at jlc.net  Thu Jun 19 03:02:33 1997
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 23:02:33 -0400
Subject: oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227031122.23782.16385126391958772216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) wrote:
>
>> In re-reading Richard Salomon's recent article "On the Origin of the Early
>> Indian Scripts: A Review Article" [in JAOS 1995 and on the Indology web
>> site], I notice that there is a possible reference to writing in Panini
>> ("lipi" in 3.2.21).  Beyond this disputed reference, much of the discussion
>> centers on possible references in the Pali canon [e.g. the verb likh- and
>> its derivatives] and in general the conclusions of von Hinueber and Falk
>> appear to be rather negative about the existence of writing before, say,
>> the 3th century BCE.
>>
>
>Of course, they must mean evidence of writing prior to the 3rd century BCE
>*outside of the Harappan script.*
>
>Regards,
>Paul Kekai Manansala

Yes, of course. The Harappan script is a tantalizing presence. But it does
not speak to us, at least not yet. In any case, perhaps we can agree that
there is a chasm of sorts between IVC and the rest of the history of the
sub-continent?

I at least am convinced that there was little or no contact between early
Vedic Aryans and IVC.

What does the rest of the list think?

best,
George Thompson







From jai at mantra.com  Thu Jun 19 17:25:03 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 07:25:03 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031136.23782.17161238898071608866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Namaste! At 6:09 p.m. BSST on 6/19/97 BST, claude setzer wrote:
> For what interest it may have, there is currently a 
> strong push by the Sri Vaishnavas (Jeeyar Swami) to 
> get rid of the word Hindu and replace it with
> either Vedic or Bharata. He said that the word, Hindu, 
> came in to use during the period of """" to change 
> their name to Vedic Temple or Vedic Society, etc.

Dhanyavaad for sharing the above.  If possible, I would
like to share the excerpted Hinduism Today article with 
Jeeyar Swami to see if the conclusion that "Hindu" is of
indigenous origin is acceptable by the Shree Vaishnav.
Of course, the use of "Ved(ic)" and "Bharat" is accurate
and most commendable!

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
jai at mantra.com   jai at flex.com
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

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From thillaud at unice.fr  Thu Jun 19 07:50:36 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 09:50:36 +0200
Subject: frogs and plants
Message-ID: <161227031124.23782.18381325159727221936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	Dear Indologists,

	In Sanskrit many plants have a name linked with the frog:
bhekaparNI (?), maNDukaparNa (Calosanthes indica) and darduraparNI who is
said the same as the plant brAhmI (Clerodendrum siphonantus, Ruta
graveolens, Enhydra hingcha).
	My question are: what is the common feature of this various plants
? form of the leaves ? growing in water ? the name brAhmI is given too as
the name of a she-frog, how this zakti can be a plant or a frog ? Can I
find an itihAsa who explain it ? There is any rapport with RV,7,103 ?
	(all my references are from MMW s.v.)

	Regards,
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From cssetzer at mum.edu  Thu Jun 19 16:44:51 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 11:44:51 -0500
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031132.23782.16745434704807881745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For what interest it may have, there is currently a strong push by the Sri
Vaishnavas (Jeeyar Swami) to get rid of the word Hindu and replace it with
either Vedic or Bharata. He said that the word, Hindu, came in to use
during the period of Parsi rule and was used as a negative term, [perhaps
not literally meaning, but at least] implying the characteristic of all
those people that were not believers in the Parsi religion of the time. He
thinks it is quite strange that the people of India continued to use it
afterwards and in trying to get them to stop. For example, he is
encouraging groups like the "Hindu Society" or "Hindu Temple" to change
their name to Vedic Temple or Vedic Society, etc.

Claude Setzer,  cssetzer at mum.edu

----------
> From: Peter D Banos <pdb1 at columbia.edu>
> To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: hindu once again
> Date: Thursday, June 19, 1997 12:27 PM
> 
> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
> 
> > In the same vein, can anyone explain the Hebrew name of India, "hodu"?
> > (That's the modern pronunciation. Originally it should be "hoddu" or
"hodhu",
> > I don't remember which but I suspect it should be the latter; it can be
found
> > in the Bible, in the first verse of the Book of Esther, for example)
> 
> Klaus Karttunen has pointed out that the assimilation of _nd_ to _dd_ is
> not unusual in Hebrew. This however does not explain how the vowel became
> _o_. 
> The following is my own off-the-wall speculation: perhaps "hindu" was
> taken into Hebrew through the medium of an alphabet in which the symbols
> for "n" and "w" are hard to distinguish? They are similar enough in
> modern Hebrew writing, and in the Pahlavi script used for Middle Persian
> they are identical. The "i" being short would not have been written at
> all. So something looking like "hnd" or "hndw" could have been misread as
> "hwd" or "hwdw" - which would give the form written in the Book of
Esther.
> Like I say, this is pure speculation; it is based only on 
> my having seen even weirder things happen with scripts like the Pahlavi.
> 
> 						-Peter D. Banos
> 						  Columbia University
> 
> 


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From P.Wehmeyer at Uni-Koeln.DE  Thu Jun 19 10:16:52 1997
From: P.Wehmeyer at Uni-Koeln.DE (Petra Wehmeyer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 12:16:52 +0200
Subject: frogs and plants
Message-ID: <161227031126.23782.154903336369329578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominique,
in many parts of India the brahmI-plant is identified with Bacopa 
monnieri (Linn.), a succulent that grows in moist places like the other 
parNI/Na - plants.Leaves opposite, long, 2-10mm broad. Centella asiatica 
(Urban.) ist also a water-loving creeping
plant, which is very often called `brahmI'. Another name is `Hydorcotyle 
asiatica`(Linn.) or in Sans: maNDUkaparNI. Leaves are round. 
SaptaparNah for instance is a large tree with simple leaves in whorls. It 
is also growing in moist regions. Got my information from: Kaviraj 
Nabendra Nath Sen Gupta: The Ayurvedic system of medicine.
Best wishes

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote:

> 	Dear Indologists,
> 
> 	In Sanskrit many plants have a name linked with the frog:
> bhekaparNI (?), maNDukaparNa (Calosanthes indica) and darduraparNI who is
> said the same as the plant brAhmI (Clerodendrum siphonantus, Ruta
> graveolens, Enhydra hingcha).
> 	My question are: what is the common feature of this various plants
> ? form of the leaves ? growing in water ? the name brAhmI is given too as
> the name of a she-frog, how this zakti can be a plant or a frog ? Can I
> find an itihAsa who explain it ? There is any rapport with RV,7,103 ?
> 	(all my references are from MMW s.v.)
> 
> 	Regards,
> Dominique
> 
> Dominique THILLAUD
> Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France
> 
> 
> 
> 





From pdb1 at columbia.edu  Thu Jun 19 16:20:28 1997
From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 12:20:28 -0400
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031130.23782.15846450659012999227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:

> In the same vein, can anyone explain the Hebrew name of India, "hodu"?
> (That's the modern pronunciation. Originally it should be "hoddu" or "hodhu",
> I don't remember which but I suspect it should be the latter; it can be found
> in the Bible, in the first verse of the Book of Esther, for example)

Klaus Karttunen has pointed out that the assimilation of _nd_ to _dd_ is
not unusual in Hebrew. This however does not explain how the vowel became
_o_. 
The following is my own off-the-wall speculation: perhaps "hindu" was
taken into Hebrew through the medium of an alphabet in which the symbols
for "n" and "w" are hard to distinguish? They are similar enough in
modern Hebrew writing, and in the Pahlavi script used for Middle Persian
they are identical. The "i" being short would not have been written at
all. So something looking like "hnd" or "hndw" could have been misread as
"hwd" or "hwdw" - which would give the form written in the Book of Esther.
Like I say, this is pure speculation; it is based only on 
my having seen even weirder things happen with scripts like the Pahlavi.

						-Peter D. Banos
						  Columbia University






From ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de  Thu Jun 19 20:56:51 1997
From: ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Ditte Koenig)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 13:56:51 -0700
Subject: frogs and plants
Message-ID: <161227031128.23782.8808331065699680735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Cher Dominique Thillaud,
Ce qui concerne la plante Ruta graveolens: ce n?est pas une plante qui
pousse dans l?eau - au contraire. Elle s?appelle  Rue des Jardins en
Francais et Weinraute en Allemand et comme le nom le dit elle aime la
terre normale. Roth/Daunderer/Kormann Giftpflanzen-Pflanzengifte ?crit
que c?est une plante de l?Europe de Sud et une plante des jardins. J?ai
souvent remarqu? que les identifications des plantes et des animaux dans
les dictionnaires Sanskrit-anglais etc sont tr?s souvent faux.
Regards Ditte Bandini-K?nig





From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Thu Jun 19 17:10:24 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 19:10:24 +0200
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031134.23782.6385540716415466486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>
>> In the same vein, can anyone explain the Hebrew name of India, "hodu"?
>> (That's the modern pronunciation. Originally it should be "hoddu" or "hodhu",
>> I don't remember which but I suspect it should be the latter; it can be found
>> in the Bible, in the first verse of the Book of Esther, for example)
>
>Klaus Karttunen has pointed out that the assimilation of _nd_ to _dd_ is
>not unusual in Hebrew. This however does not explain how the vowel became
>_o_.
>The following is my own off-the-wall speculation: perhaps "hindu" was
>taken into Hebrew through the medium of an alphabet in which the symbols
>for "n" and "w" are hard to distinguish?

No, that's impossible. Klaus Karttunen said it was (contrary to what I
had tought because of the apparently long o) "hoddu". In which case the
*n* must have functioned there *after* the pronunciation of the vowel
became o, hence the confusion between n and w can't be the source of
the o sound. (Your conjecture would be compatible with a "hodhu"
pronunciation).

>They are similar enough in
>modern Hebrew writing, and in the Pahlavi script used for Middle Persian
>they are identical. The "i" being short would not have been written at
>all.

That's not an absolute rule like say in Arabic. Sometimes you see short i
written with a so called "mater lectionis". Furthermore the "mater lectionis"
y is also used for long e, which is precisely the Aramaic pronunciation.

I think the most likely is that there was a confusion between w and the y
of the Aramaic spelling.

I think I've seen other cases like that although I couldn't give you examples
on the spot.

>So something looking like "hnd" or "hndw" could have been misread as
>"hwd" or "hwdw" - which would give the form written in the Book of Esther.
>Like I say, this is pure speculation; it is based only on
>my having seen even weirder things happen with scripts like the Pahlavi.







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Jun 20 05:09:09 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 01:09:09 -0400
Subject: Indus Culture and Vedic Aryans
Message-ID: <161227031138.23782.6039135674473323444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-19 00:11:03 EDT, thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson)
writes:

<< I at least am convinced that there was little or no contact between early
 Vedic Aryans and IVC.
 
 What does the rest of the list think?
  >>
For archaelogical evidence for contacts between Indus culture and the two
waves of Aryans (Dasas and RV Aryans), please see Deciphering the Indus
Script by Asko parpola p.148-159.

Regards

S. Palaniappan





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Jun 20 06:17:15 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 02:17:15 -0400
Subject: Etymology of 'iyer' and may be even that of 'iyenkAr'
Message-ID: <161227031140.23782.5790146116668996398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-17 08:15:19 EDT, Hrid at aol.com writes:

<< 	I appreciate the above, but am still not clear as to why the root ai
cannot
 possibly be an IA derivative, rather than a "perfectly Tamil word".
  >>
We started with a hypothesis of Sanskrit 'Arya'> Pali 'ayya' > Tamil 'aiyar'.
It has been shown that the root is 'ai'. In Old Tamil when IA words are
borrowed they are modified to suit Tamil phonology and morphophonemics. But,
as far as I know,  a polysyllabic word is not shortened to form a
monosyllabic word and made into a root. For 'ai' to be the result of deletion
of 'ya' from 'ayya', a Tamil grammarian should have first started with the
form 'ayyar' or 'aiyar', treated the 'ar' as a suffix, 'y' as the glide, and
thus extract a root 'ai' and then recommended to the public the use of 'ai'
by itself and in combination with suffixes such as 'tu' and 'mAr' - totally
different suffixes from the IA forms. This seems far-fetched and totally
alien to the Old Tamil notion of 'literature preceding grammar' and explicit
acknowledgment of borrowing from IA.  In fact, given the basic nature of
Dravidian to keep adding suffixes to the right, the creation of a new root by
deleting 'potential' suffixes from a borrowed IA word and creating a root
seems to be very much against the basic nature of the language. Even more
unlikely is to create an abstract noun such as ai by this process. 

TolkAppiyar (uriyiyal.87) defines 'ai' as 'viyappu'. 'viyappu' is derived
from the root 'viya' (DED 4430) meaning 'to wonder, be proud, wonder at,
esteem, admire, praise, extol, compliment'. Thus the semantic range of the
term includes wonder as well as respect. From this 'ai', an adjectival noun
is also seen in Old Tamil as 'aitu' (KuRuntokai 401.6).  

If 'ai' were to be hypothesized as an IA derivative,  then we have to look at
comparable monosyllabic words in IA with similar meanings. It cannot be from
'ayya'.

It is a lot simpler to treat it as a native root. 

Regards

S. Palaniappan






From jai at mantra.com  Fri Jun 20 18:43:57 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 08:43:57 -1000
Subject: "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031148.23782.16433424692856437010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[Original Subject header restored]

Namaste! At 4:37 p.m. on  6/20/97 BST, 
Srinivasan Pichumani <srini at engin.umich.edu>
> Dr. Dermot Killingley wrote:
>> This parallels the preference of ISKCON to call 
>> itself a Vedic rather than a Hindu movement. On the 
>> other hand, it is hard to see how *every* . . .
> [...]
> At least in India, where there are a good many Parsis, 
> forming a distinctive community, 'Parsi religion' clearly
> refers to Zoroastrianism.   -Srini.

The name of ISKCON has entered the discussion.  I observe
that members of the cult publicize the truth, but sometimes 
write whatever suits their purpose without regard to the 
facts -- here is an example:

=== ISKCON Says Lunar Landings A Government Hoax ===================
 :
 : From: epement at ripco.com (Eric Pement)
 : Subject: Re: Vedic scriptures and language meaning
 : Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995
 :
 :   . . . When I first heard that the Krishna devotees had an
 : unusual cosmology, it was from a young man in his mid-twenties
 : who had been very close to the devotees and had visited several
 : Krishna temples.  He told me (circa 1980 or 1981, I think) that
 : he has personally been present when Prabhupada had spoken in a
 : lecture that the moon landings were faked because the moon is a
 : spiritual planet, and that since the astronauts didn't see what
 : he (Prabhpada) "knows" is there - I can't fill in the gaps here
 : -- that therefore the U.S. government's claim to have visited
 : the moon must be false.  The man left the Krishna movement, and
 : was astounded at this belief.
 :
 :   I didn't think much more about ISKCON cosmology for a year or
 : two until Jim Valentine, a religious scholar in Milwaukee with
 : an incredibly good library of ISKCON/BBT literature, told me
 : about the Srimad Bhagavatam, 5th canto, part 2, where the
 : cosmology is laid out (along with the Vedic concept of hell or
 : "hellish planets", which makes the Krishnas' often-voiced
 : condemnation of the Christian concept of hell seem rather
 : ironic).
 :
 :   Then in 1992 or 1993, I bought a copy of VEDIC COSMOGRAPHY AND
 : ASTRONOMY, by Richard L. Thompson (Bhaktivedanta Book Trust,
 : 1990).  Although Thompson has a Ph.D. in mathematics from
 : Cornell, I was amazed at the things he was attempting to explain
 : or scientifically justify.  I will grant that Thompson is an
 : educated man -- however, he is in the unfortunate position of
 : having to intellectually justify some very bizarre assertions.
 :
 :   If you will read pages 130-134, you will see an extended
 : discussion in which Thompson attempts (unsuccessfully, I
 : believe) to justify Prabhupada's claims about the moon.  "Srila
 : Prabhupada has often said that the astronauts have never
 : actually visited the moon." (pg. 130)  From here there are many
 : references and quotes from Prabhupada, fully documented.  I
 : don't have time to reproduce them here.
 :
 :   The point is, this book is published by the Bhaktivedanta Book
 : Trust, and gives the full source quotes, with Thompson's
 : attempts to rescue Prabhupada's credibility.  In desperation,
 : even Thompson himself suggests that moon landings might have
 : been intentional government hoaxes (pg. 133, 163-164).  You
 : might like to look at this in more detail.
 :
 : Kind regards,
 :
 : Eric Pement <epement at ripco.com>
 :
====================================================================

One prays that the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust will remove the
word "Vedic" from the book by Richard L. Thompson.  The Vedic
sciences do not state that man did not land on the Moon.

Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.







From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk  Fri Jun 20 09:29:26 1997
From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 10:29:26 +0100
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031142.23782.15933731843253526489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This parallels the preference of ISKCON to call itself a Vedic rather 
than a Hindu movement. On the other hand, it is hard to see how *every* 
place that is currently called a 'Hindu temple' could be called a 'Vedic 
temple'.

To make sense of the information, we have to note that 'Parsi' in this 
context doesn't have its usual meaning of 'Zoroastrian'. It clearly means 
'Persian', or rather 'of Persian language and/or culture', and 'Parsi 
religion' refers to Islam.

Dr Dermot Killingley
Dept of Religious Studies
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
Phone 0191 222 6730    Fax 0191 222 5185

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, claude setzer wrote:

> For what interest it may have, there is currently a strong push by the Sri
> Vaishnavas (Jeeyar Swami) to get rid of the word Hindu and replace it with
> either Vedic or Bharata. He said that the word, Hindu, came in to use
> during the period of Parsi rule and was used as a negative term, [perhaps
> not literally meaning, but at least] implying the characteristic of all
> those people that were not believers in the Parsi religion of the time. He
> thinks it is quite strange that the people of India continued to use it
> afterwards and in trying to get them to stop. For example, he is
> encouraging groups like the "Hindu Society" or "Hindu Temple" to change
> their name to Vedic Temple or Vedic Society, etc.
> 
> Claude Setzer,  cssetzer at mum.edu
> 
> ----------
> > From: Peter D Banos <pdb1 at columbia.edu>
> > To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> > Subject: Re: hindu once again
> > Date: Thursday, June 19, 1997 12:27 PM
> > 
> > On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
> > 
> > > In the same vein, can anyone explain the Hebrew name of India, "hodu"?
> > > (That's the modern pronunciation. Originally it should be "hoddu" or
> "hodhu",
> > > I don't remember which but I suspect it should be the latter; it can be
> found
> > > in the Bible, in the first verse of the Book of Esther, for example)
> > 
> > Klaus Karttunen has pointed out that the assimilation of _nd_ to _dd_ is
> > not unusual in Hebrew. This however does not explain how the vowel became
> > _o_. 
> > The following is my own off-the-wall speculation: perhaps "hindu" was
> > taken into Hebrew through the medium of an alphabet in which the symbols
> > for "n" and "w" are hard to distinguish? They are similar enough in
> > modern Hebrew writing, and in the Pahlavi script used for Middle Persian
> > they are identical. The "i" being short would not have been written at
> > all. So something looking like "hnd" or "hndw" could have been misread as
> > "hwd" or "hwdw" - which would give the form written in the Book of
> Esther.
> > Like I say, this is pure speculation; it is based only on 
> > my having seen even weirder things happen with scripts like the Pahlavi.
> > 
> > 						-Peter D. Banos
> > 						  Columbia University
> > 
> > 





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Fri Jun 20 14:56:14 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 10:56:14 -0400
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031146.23782.1786934042221929603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	Dr. Dermot Killingley wrote:

	This parallels the preference of ISKCON to call itself a Vedic rather 
	than a Hindu movement. On the other hand, it is hard to see how *every* 
	place that is currently called a 'Hindu temple' could be called a 'Vedic 
	temple'.

	To make sense of the information, we have to note that 'Parsi' in this 
	context doesn't have its usual meaning of 'Zoroastrian'. It clearly means 
	'Persian', or rather 'of Persian language and/or culture', and 'Parsi 
	religion' refers to Islam.

What ??? Maybe you need to distinguish between the current usage 
of the term by Iranians (and/or their Middle Eastern neighbors) 
and Indians.

At least in India, where there are a good many Parsis, forming 
a distinctive community, 'Parsi religion' clearly refers to 
Zoroastrianism.  

-Srini.





From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 20 21:09:22 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 14:09:22 -0700
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031150.23782.1316104894880145008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>






>This parallels the preference of ISKCON to call itself a Vedic rather 
>than a Hindu movement. On the other hand, it is hard to see how *every* 
>place that is currently called a 'Hindu temple' could be called a 
'Vedic 
>temple'.
>



>> Vaishnavas (Jeeyar Swami) to get rid of the word Hindu and replace



May I know as to which Jeeyar Swami are you refering to? I think you
are refering to Tridandi chinna Srimannarayana Jeeyar Swami, a very
*political* kind of Swami. As to the word Hindu being a term of 
contempt, the arguement holds no water. No work on Hinduism ( even very 
polemical works by Hinduttva theoriticians mention this). I've read 
works by both Golwalkar and Hegdewar and neither of them mention 
anything about the word Hindu being a term of contempt.
  I believe that if you are basing this on the statement of the above
mentioned swami, you may be going for an incorrect interpretation 
because Jeeyar Swami, in addition to being politicised, is not very 
fluent in Hindi...he is a Telugu speaker who speaks a smattering of 
Tamil......his translation of something from Urdu/Persian need not be 
taken literally until it is backed up by some other claim.....During the 
Mughal days, "Kafir"(Infidel) was the "uncomplementary" way of refering 
to the Hindus. Pls note that people like Veer Savarkar, Hegdewar or Lal 
Kishan Advani who are more conversant with Hindi/Urdu
donot mention this at all....

 it with
>> either Vedic or Bharata. He said that the word, Hindu, came in to 
                   -------

The problem with "Bharata" is that it would translate as "Indian" which 
brings back to square one. Are all Bharateeya Hindu( or vice versa)?

As far as this "Veda" thing is concerned, Jeeyar
should know that there are *nonvedic* practises like the
recitation of the Sursagar,Ramacharitmanas etc done in temples
( when I say "nonvedic", I mean that these are part of the Hindu
religious tradition, but THE VEDAS DONOT TALK about them). So, if the 
tradition followed is not strictly Vedic, what is the big point in
calling them "Vedic" centers and giving rise to further confusion?
In all probability, you would have the same kind of debate that arose 
between the Tengalai and Vadagalai Srivaishnavas---should non-Sanskrit
texts be given the same status as Sanskrit texts? Would it be considered 
Vedic practice to chant anything other what is mentioned in the 
Vedas?...this would only be fertile ground for more divisions,splits 
etc.....In short, we are asking for unwanted trouble


Krishna

>> afterwards and in trying to get them to stop. For example, he is
>> encouraging groups like the "Hindu Society" or "Hindu Temple" to 
change
>> their name to Vedic Temple or Vedic Society, etc.
>> 
>> Claude Setzer,  cssetzer at mum.edu
>> 




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Fri Jun 20 14:10:36 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 16:10:36 +0200
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031144.23782.2525470656126099601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



>>        Or did the sound change s>h take place after the Iranians had
>>settled in Iran and come to know the Indus by the name _sindhu_?
>
>Wait a second, my understanding of (for example) Lars Martin's explanation
>was that Iranian hindu was cognate to Indian sindhu, not that it derived
>from it, although I can't go back an check.
>

That was precisely my point. sindhu/hindu are cognate words going back to
the same point of origin, which would be *sindhu (the Skt. version is the
same as the Indo-Iranian original, since Skt. is a more conservative
language (in phonetic terms) than the Iranian dialects we know. 

So why didn't the Persians / Iranians just import "sindhu" from India? There
are two explanations: 1) The place was known to both peoples before the
Iranian sound changes began. 2) When the Iranians heard the name, they found
it so similar phonetically and semantically to their own "hindu" that they
simply used the Iranian term. Loan words are usually approximated to local
phonology.

Anyway, if the word sindhu had been imported at a later date, it would in
Iranian have been "sindu", since Iranian dialects did not have aspirated stops. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From asia at server.uwindsor.ca  Fri Jun 20 21:56:18 1997
From: asia at server.uwindsor.ca (Inst. Of Asian Cultures)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 17:56:18 -0400
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031152.23782.15780695178802740229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I have heard, but cannot confirm it, that one of the meanings of hindu, or
a derivation of it, in Arabic/Turk/Persian language(s) means 'chor'
(thief). Perhaps that's a possible reason the term 'hindu' is considered
derogatory. 

Sushil Jain  






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sat Jun 21 00:17:09 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 20:17:09 -0400
Subject: Indus Culture, Durga, and CilappatikAram
Message-ID: <161227031153.23782.3344252862552953322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Earlier, under the heading, "What animal does Durga ride?", I said the
following.

<I have earlier posted a translation of some passages from CilappatikAram, a
Tamil text from 5th century CE as dated by Western scholars. This particular
section (Chapter 12) may be one of the earliest texts if not the earliest
text detailing the worship of Goddess/Durga.  In this text, KoRRavai (DurgA
in Sanskrit) rides a stag or male deer. In Sanskrit texts, on the other hand,
Durga is supposed to ride a lion or a tiger, I believe. Does anybody know if
Durga rides a stag in any other Indian tradition?>

Since then, I have discovered some very interesting findings. Stag appears
accompanying a goddess in the coins of the KuniNDa tribe (2nd century CE?).
While earlier scholars have identified the goddess with Zri, because of the
presence of lotus and the representation of Zri/Lakshmi as a golden antelope,
I think it is more probable that the goddess in question is DurgA. For one
thing, lotus is not exclusively associated with Lakshmi alone. Moreover,
there are two Indus seals shown in the Deciphering the Indus Script by Asko
Parpola, Fig.14.35, and especially Fig. 7.13 seem to be stags. The twisting
horns on the seals seem to echo the description, 'tiritaru kOTTuk kalai'
(stag (?) with twisting/turning horns). Now in Old Tamil the word 'kalai' is
used to refer to the stag and male monkey. I do not know what other species
of animals 'kalai' refered to earlier if the animal in the seal is not a
stag.  According to Asko Parpola, the animal is a markhor goat (Sanskrit
 'zarabha') mentioned in kAlikApurANa as a sacrificial animal. But in
CilappatikAram, 'kalai' is a vehicle and not a sacrificial animal. 

In the Goddess worship ritual described in  CilappatikAram, the priestess is
made to sit on the 'kalai' and brought in front of the Goddess who rides
'kalai'. After that, the priestess worships the Goddess. There is no mention
of the priestess sacrificing the 'kalai'.  So, apparently it stood beside the
priestess which is in agreement with the Indus seals.

It looks like 'kalai', stag or markhor goat was the original vehicle for
DurgA. The lion probably is a later innovation. If this is confirmed, then
CilappatikAram seems to be the only text describing the sacrificial ritual
related to koRRavai/DurgA accurately in the manner implied by the Indus
seals. I would appreciate any comments from archaelogists, art historians,
numismatists, tantrists, etc.

Regards

S. Palaniappan  







From cssetzer at mum.edu  Sat Jun 21 04:11:43 1997
From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 23:11:43 -0500
Subject: Hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031155.23782.12107997203026227936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> From: S Krishna <mahadevasiva at hotmail.com>
> Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 5:16 PM
> May I know as to which Jeeyar Swami are you refering to? I think you
> are refering to Tridandi chinna Srimannarayana Jeeyar Swami

yes, this is the one

> a very> *political* kind of Swami.

I attended several of his lectures and listened to him talk for quite a few
hours. There was not one word that I would consider political, but then
there could be many implications of the word, political. Although I
consider myself only a novice, I have listened to several thousand hours of
discussions of Vedic topics over the years, and I consider the Jeeyar Swami
to be very sincere and very knowledgeable of the Vedic literature, which
was his main topic of discussion. He also seemed to be living this
tradition, which I would not say for many that give lectures on it. It
seemed to me that his main goal was to encourage all people who are
interested in knowledge of the Vedas and Vedic literature. Although I know
he is also very knowledgeable of the "Tamil Veda," I do not remember that
topic coming up. He was mainly insisting that all knowledge must be
verifiable by the Vedas in order to be known to be correct knowledge. He
also is trying to correct what he considers to be some "incorrect" or
imprecise practices being used by many modern temples. It was my feeling
that he was not trying to just call "Hindu" temples Vedic, but trying to
help them become more Vedic. This seems to me to be a legitimate and
honorable goal, yes?? (That probably is even part of his "job
description!")

> As to the word, Hindu, being a term of  contempt, 

I am sorry if I did not communicate this clearly. He never mentioned the
word, contempt, nor did I. I think the idea is that the term, Hindu, was
not originated by a group of people calling themselves by a name that they
thought applied to them, but rather by a ruling "outsider" who used the
term to differentiate them as different. This term can be a term that was
neutral or somewhat negative from the viewpoint of the outsider. However,
there is evidence that the Parsi's actually made friends with many of the
"Hindu" leaders and made them at least cooperative rulers of their areas. I
felt that the important fact was that the name was one that probably
originated from outside the group itself, and therefore was not a "scared"
name that needed to be preserved, or that it even accurately described the
people that it is associated with.

>is not very fluent in Hindi...he is a Telugu speaker 

Yes, he does speak Telugu, as well as excellent English. Since one of the
goals of his "Vedic University" is that all students should know five
languages: Sanskrit, Telegu, Tamil, English, and Hindu, I would expect that
he also knows the other languages. However, I cannot understand why knowing
or not knowing any particular language should imply that a person does not
know Indian History, particularly an aspect that may be of special interest
to his mission in life. Yes, it is nice to be a scholar, and to find things
out from direct research. But one only has to read the Indology list for a
few days to find out that that means of gaining knowledge is not always
reliable. Scholars never seem to unanimously agree on anything, no mater
how extensive the study is that seems to prepare them for knowing the
"truth." I know many people who have spoken English all of their lives and
know much less about American history that those who speak no English at
all.


> The problem with "Bharata" is that it would translate as "Indian" which 
> brings back to square one. Are all Bharateeya Hindu( or vice versa)?

Good point. I think he considers his audience basically to be made up of
those who call them selves Hindus. There does seem to be a good logic,
though, that there is a close link between the Vedic practices and the land
(Bharata) in which those people lived when Vedic practices dominated the
area. BTW, although Bharata is the official name for India today, doesn't
it actually "translate" as the land originally ruled by the "first" king of
"India," King Bharata?

>there are *nonvedic* practises like the
> recitation of the Sursagar,Ramacharitmanas etc done in temples
> ( when I say "nonvedic", I mean that these are part of the Hindu
> religious tradition, but THE VEDAS DONOT TALK about them). So, if the 
> tradition followed is not strictly Vedic, what is the big point in
> calling them "Vedic" 

Again, I think he is trying to enliven the Vedic tradition, and this is
very big point. There also was a lot of discussion specifically about what
things could be allowed to be correct in terms of the Vedas, and what
things could not.

Thanks for your comments, Krishna, I enjoyed your input.

Claude Setzer, cssetzer at mum.edu



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From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 21 20:35:06 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 97 13:35:06 -0700
Subject: EkakSara and other ingenious forms of Slokas
Message-ID: <161227031162.23782.11100489256697174776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members,

I have two questions for you:-

1. I am refering to A.L.Bashams book "The Wonder That Was India"
Page 425 , 1963 version....While discussing Sanskrit poetry, Dr
Basham mentions Maghas "SisupAla vadha" and says that he employed many
ingenious forms in this kAvya and illustrates this with the examples
of a EkakSara sloka i.e. "dadAdo dudda-dud-dAdI
                          dadAdO dida-dI-do-do:|
                          dud-dAdam dadadE duddE
                          dadAdada dado'da da:||"
This uses just the letter "da" for a whole sloka.
(I am sorry for the bad transliteration, the only word that I can 
understand is the word "dadAdO", but then Dr Basham concedes that
this stanza employs rare and elliptical words.). Likewise he gives 
examples of a dvayAkshara Sloka, an example of a gatapratyAgatam
(palindrome) etc and says that after Magha, poems became displays
of verbal ingenuity. My question to you is:
Are there any authors in Skt who have used a similar form?Is there any 
book which explains more about these exotic forms? Other than the 
EkakSara, dvayAksara and gatapratyAgatam forms, are there any other
exotic forms of versification in Skt poetry?


2. This is regarding a Malayalam poem in the context of the story of 
Svathi Thirunal. I've been told the following story:
Svathi Thirunaal was once goiing around in Trivandrum when he met a 
Brahmin who was sitting near a dilapidated structure. Out of curiousity, 
Svathi Thirunaal asked the Brahmin as to what the building was. The 
Brahmin told him that it was his house and  versified his reply in 
Malayalam(The English translation would run as:-
"My house is as old as the PurANam, the difference while it is full of 
"artham"(meaning), this house lacks any "artham"(money)."
This verse puns on the meanings of purANam( can mean old as well as the 
purANam) and the word "artham"(translatable as "meaning" and "money"). 
Svathi Thirunaal was so impressed with the Brahmins quick wit that he 
got the house repaired on the spot. 
My question is: Can anybody give me the original Malayalam poem?

Regards,
Krishna



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From thillaud at unice.fr  Sat Jun 21 12:13:36 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 97 14:13:36 +0200
Subject: Indus Culture, Durga, and CilappatikAram
Message-ID: <161227031158.23782.5482854802489008390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 2:20 +0200 21/06/97, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:
>Earlier, under the heading, "What animal does Durga ride?", I said the
>following.
> .....
>I would appreciate any comments from archaelogists, art historians,
>numismatists, tantrists, etc.

	I'm in the 'etc.'.
	From my point of view, that's not a problem. mRga and vyAghra (or
simha) are strongly linked as the couple prey/predator (MBh III,11,24;
III,200,14 and tens of others) and the hunter can be identified with both
(see the greek myth of Akteon): obviously mRgahan = vyAghra, but, all over
the world, the hunting ideology contains an identification with the prey
(magical ?). I believe that explain the verb mRgayati (te).
	The two animals of the greek Huntress Artemis are the deer and the
bear.

	Even if it is etymologically (stricto sensu) wrong, we can't
neglect the rapport between mRga | mR + gA and dur-gA.

	This don't presume DurgA to be an eurindian Goddess because the
Wild Beast's Lady (correct ? Greek: PotniA ThErOn, French: Dame des Fauves)
is well known in many civilizations. But that can explain why, linked with
DurgA, stags and lions are structurally the same.

	Hoping to help, namaste!
Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From stone_catend at compuserve.com  Sat Jun 21 19:30:58 1997
From: stone_catend at compuserve.com (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 97 15:30:58 -0400
Subject: Languages for studying Indology
Message-ID: <161227031160.23782.1760047574816555780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Elisabeth

If you are reading about Indian church history, books about William Carey
are very important.   There is the older biography 'William Carey' by
Pearce Carey, but for an account of the difficulties Carey had with the
home board, based on the documents in London, you need:
 
Brian Stanley, History of the Baptist Missionary Society, 1992.  

[The name and date are near to this, if not exactly given here.   The book
was written for the bicentenary of the BMS.]

Regards,    Tony





From tatelman at total.net  Sat Jun 21 21:45:06 1997
From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 97 16:45:06 -0500
Subject: aatape (vi)dhaarita.h
Message-ID: <161227031164.23782.9049390123248919333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members,

I am revising my translation of the Puur.naavadaana (Divyaavadaana no. 2) for publication and would be most grateful for your comments on a problematic expression found in two contiguous sentences. These are found respectively, on p. 20.13-14 and p. 20.15-16 of Vaidya's edition of the Divyaavadaana (= Cowell-Neil edition, p. 33.12-14 and p. 33.16).

The two sentences run as follows:

1. tato va.niggrame.na sa.mjaataamar.se.na .sa.s.te.h kaar.saapa.naanaam arthaayaatape dhaarita.h .

2. kasyaarthe yu.smaabhi.h puu.rna aatape vidhaarita.h .

My original translations, about which I am now having doubts, are as follows:

1. Then the [members of the] merchants' guild became angry and imposed [on Purna] a fine of sixty silver coins.

2. For what reason did you impose a fine on Purna?

E. Burnouf (Introduction ? l'histoire du buddhisme indien, 2nd ed., Paris, 1876, p. 220), who translated this story from two MSS. and from the Tibetan version in the Muulasarvaastivaada Vinaya, interprets these as meaning that the members of the guild forcibly exposed Purna to the heat of the  sun as a way of forcing him to pay the 60 kar.saapa.nas (this penalty for dealing independently of the guild has been mentioned earlier in the narrative).

F. Edgerton (BHSD, p. 91b, s.v. aatapa) translates as I do, but (1) thinks the passages may be corrupt and (2) admits not really understanding the meaning of the crucial expressions "aatape dhaarita.h" and "aatape vidhaarita.h": he conjectures: "kept on a hot spot?".

Regrettably, I do not read Tibetan. At the moment, I am tending to favour Burnouf. Part of the reason for this is that the sentence following no. 2 above - raaj?a.h pauru.seyair d.r.s.ta.h - suggests that the king's men came along and saw Purna staked out (or whatever) in the sun and then, as the text goes on to say, reported the matter to the king. However, it's not exactly ironclad evidence. Therefore,

Any comments or observations would be most appreciated.

Thank you in advance,

Joel Tatelman.





From cbond at sas.upenn.edu  Sun Jun 22 13:12:41 1997
From: cbond at sas.upenn.edu (cbond at sas.upenn.edu)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 09:12:41 -0400
Subject: Tamil diacriticals
Message-ID: <161227031166.23782.3185102728597281846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anyone direct me to a font in Roman script with the diacriticals 
for Tamil, applicable to Windows 95, that is available through email or the 
Internet?

With many thanks,
Carolyn Bond
Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA  19103

cbond at sas.upenn.edu





From seljana at tm.net.my  Sun Jun 22 14:34:16 1997
From: seljana at tm.net.my (SELVA)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 22:34:16 +0800
Subject: Tamil diacriticals
Message-ID: <161227031168.23782.3201393172594156695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:23 PM 6/22/97 BST, Carolyn Bond wrote:
>Could anyone direct me to a font in Roman script with the diacriticals 
>for Tamil, applicable to Windows 95, that is available through email or the 
>Internet?
>
>With many thanks,
>Carolyn Bond
>Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
>University of Pennsylvania
>Philadelphia, PA  19103
>
>cbond at sas.upenn.edu
>
>
You can download Murasu tamil fonts freely from http://www.murasu.com.
You can use either romanised key board or typewriter key board.

Good luck,

..Selva____________________________________________________________
SELVA
Ipoh,
Malaysia.

Visit my page:  http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/3517/
____________________________________________________________





From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de  Mon Jun 23 09:49:01 1997
From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (martinez)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 11:49:01 +0200
Subject: Confs: Ind-Arian, Indo-Iranian and Indo-European
Message-ID: <161227031170.23782.8694583627634719252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This message has been sent to Linguist List, Indoeuropean,
Indology and HISTLING
Apologies for cross-postings!
See. http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/curric/erl-97b.html
--------------

                   Kolloquium der Indogermanischen Gesellschaft
                        Indoarisch, Iranisch und die
Indogermanistik
                                  Erlangen, 2. - 5. Oktober 1997
                                            P r o g r a m m

                                Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 1997
 8.45 -  9.00 Begr|_ung
 9.00 - 10.00 Thomas Oberlies (Freiburg i.B.): Pans Zahnl|cken
und Hermes' Vorliebe f|r Backwerk: die gvedische Religion und
ihre Vorldufer
10.00 - 10.25 Manfred Mayrhofer (Wien): Zum Etymologikon des
nachvedischen Altindoarischen
10.25 - 10.50 Rosemarie L|hr (Jena): Zum Modalfeld im
Altindischen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10.50 - 11.20 Kaffeepause
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11.20 - 11.45 Maria Kozianka (Jena): Passivkonstruktionen mit
aktivischen Endungen im Altindischen
11.45 - 12.10 Susanne Zeilfelder (Jena): Prdverben ohne Verben im
Altindischen
12.10 - 12.35 Toshifumi Got (Sendai): Das Priesteramt des Vasiha
und die indoiranische Sonnenverehrung -
Interpretation von RV VII 88
12.35 - 13.00 Junko Sakamoto-Got (Osaka): Das Jenseits und
i-prta- `die Wirkung des Geopferten und des
Geschenkten' in der vedischen Religion

                                  M I T T A G S P A U S E

15.00 - 16.00 Konrad Klaus (Bochum): Die Srautastras
16.00 - 16.25 Irene Balles (Jena): Die indoiranischen
"cvi-Bildungen" und ihre Deutungen im Lichte der Typologie
16.25 - 16.50 Lucio Melazzo (Palermo): Die Milch der Nacht
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16.50 - 17.20 Kaffeepause
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17.20 - 17.45 Frangois Heenen (Wien): Le disideratif dans le vida

17.45 - 18.10 Agnes Korn (Graz): Streckformen im Rigveda
18.10 - 18.35 Karl Praust (Wien): Der Se-Charakter der Wurzel d
im Veda
18.35 - 19.00 Velizar Sadovski-Savtchov (Wien): Die Komposita mit
prdpositionalem Vorderglied im Rigveda

                                  Freitag, 3. Oktober 1997

09.00 - 10.00 Karlheinz Kessler (Erlangen): Der Einflu_ des
Iranischen auf das Akkadische der Achaimenidenzeit
10.00 - 10.25 Ignacio-Javier Adiego Lajara (Barcelona): Autour du
relatif vieux-perse
10.25 - 10.50 Xavier Tremblay (Tournai): Zum avestischen
Konsonantismus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10.50 - 11.20 Kaffeepause
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11.20 - 11.45 Onofrio Carruba (Pavia): \ber die Indoarier von
Mitanni
11.45 - 12.10 Almut Hintze (Cambridge): Die avestische Wurzel mad
`messen'
12.10 - 12.35 Michael Janda (Z|rich): Fesselndes von Yima
12.35 - 13.00 Matthias Fritz (Berlin): Eine indoiranische
Bezeichnung f|r "heiraten"

                                  M I T T A G S P A U S E

15.00 - 16.00 Gert Klingenschmitt (Regensburg): Mittelpersisch
16.00 - 16.25 Desmond Durkin-Meisterernst (M|nster): Das
parthische Verbum
16.25 - 16.50 Nicholas Sims-Williams (Cambridge): The Bactrian
verbal system
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16.50 - 17.20 Kaffeepause
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17.20 - 17.45 F. Javier Martmnez Garcma (Frankfurt/Main): Zur
avestischen Lautlehre
17.45 - 18.10 Michiel de Vaan (Leiden): Bemerkungen zur
handschriftlichen \berlieferung der Yasnas
18.10 - 18.35 Agustm Alemany Vilamajs (Barcelona): Wer waren die
Alanen?
18.35 - 19.00 Johnny Cheung (Leiden): Same remarks on the Ossetic
gemination


19.30 - 20.15 Jost Gippert (Frankfurt/Main): Indoiranistisches
Text-Retrieval: Die neuen elektronischen Bearbeitungen
altiranischer und vedischer Texte

                                 Samstag, 4. Oktober 1997
 9.00 - 10.00 Michael Witzel (Harvard): Die sprachliche Situation
in Nordindien in vedischer Zeit
10.00 - 10.25 Alexander Lubotsky (Leiden): The Vedic root v `to
cover' and its present
10.25 - 10.50 Martin K|mmel (Freiburg i.B.): Der Aorist der
Wurzel(n) ar im Indoiranischen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10.50 - 11.20 Kaffeepause
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11.20 - 11.45 Georges-Jean Pinault (Paris): Sur l'interpritation
des comparaisons vidiques
11.45 - 12.10 Stefan Schaffner (Regensburg): Altindisch amnas
12.10 - 12.35 Katharina Kupfer (W|rzburg): Kopula- und
Nominalsdtze im Rigveda
12.35 - 13.00 Norbert Oettinger (Augsburg): Zu Pan- und
                                  M I T T A G S P A U S E
15.00 - 16.00 Oskar von Hin|ber (Freiburg i.B.): Spurensuche im
Vedischen: Mittelindisches im Altindischen
16.00 - 16.25 Wolfram Euler (M|nchen): Der Met - Rauschtrank oder
Delikatesse der Indogermanen? \berlegungen zur Bedeutungsvielfalt
von indoiran. *madhu
16.25 - 16.50 Leonid I. Kulikov (Leiden): The Vedic type syati
revisited
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16.50 - 17.20 Kaffeepause
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17.20 - 17.45 Josi Luis Garcma Ramsn (Kvln): Indoiranische
Wurzelprdsentia und iterative Aktionsart
17.45 - 18.10 Caroline aan de Wiel (Halle/Saale): dy > jy, oder
Prkritismus im Rigveda?
18.10 - 18.35 Reinhard Stempel (Bonn): Armenisch und Indoiranisch

18.35 - 19.00 J|rgen Lehmann (W|rzburg): Die rigvedische
Somapflanze war weder gr|ne Pflanze noch Pilz: Sicht eines
Entomologen

anschlie_end: gemeinsamer Abend in der Evangelischen
Studentengemeinde

                                 Sonntag, 5. Oktober 1997
 9.00 -  9.25 Sektion A: Hisashi Miyakawa (Erlangen): AB 5,14,2
nihv-a- avavadit, nih-va- avavadit
 9.25 -  9.50 Sektion A: Oleg Poljakov (Vilnius): Einige Fragen
der idg. Akzentologie
 9.00 -  9.50 Sektion B: Peter Raulwing / Robert Oberheid (Bonn):
Der Kikkuli-Text und die Rolle der Indoarier im altorientalischen
Fuhrwesen - Einige Bemerkungen zu neueren hippologischen und
philologischen Interpretationen

Sektionen A und B:
 9.50 - 10.15 Frank Bernhauer (M|nchen): Syntaktische
Besonderheiten bei Vergleichskonstruktionen im Vedischen
10.15 - 10.40 N. Alberto Cantera Glera (Salamanca): Iranisch
*xan- und germanisch *swin~a-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10.40 - 11.00 Pause
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11.00 - 11.25 Birgit Anette Olsen (Kopenhagen): The PIE
Background of the Types dev and vk
11.25 - 11.50 Jens Elmegerd Rasmussen (Kopenhagen): Zur
Vorgeschichte des Plusquamperfekts
11.50 - 12.15 Robert Plath (Erlangen): Indoiranische Miszellen
12.15 - 12.40 Bernhard Forssman (Erlangen): Zu Yast 8,40
12.40 - 12.50 Schlu_wort, Verabschiedung

Tagungsraum: Hvrsaal C, Philosophisches Seminargebdude II,
Kochstra_e 4 (Eingang Hindenburgstra_e)
Der Tagungsort von Sektion B am Sonntag (5.10.1997, 9.00-9.50
Uhr) wird noch bekanntgegeben.

Bureau/Contacting Address:
            Institut f|r Vergleichende Indogermanische
Sprachwissenschaft
            Kochstra_e 4
            D-91054 Erlangen-N|rnberg

            Tel: +49-9131-85-9376 oder -85-2404
            Fax: +49-9131-85-6390
            email: p2indog at phil.uni-erlangen.de








From KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl  Mon Jun 23 13:01:16 1997
From: KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (KERNLIBRVN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 14:01:16 +0100
Subject: Univ. address.
Message-ID: <161227031174.23782.274285267637378158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To:	IN%"indology at liverpool.ac.uk"
Subj:	Re: Univ. address.

Dear Mr Preciado,

I assume you refer to the mail on the Center for India Studies, which was 
opened at Stony Brook on April 26.

Information according to that mail, can be requested from: 

Center for India Studies / Stony Brook Foundation,
E5350 Library, SUNYSB, Stony Brook, NY 11794-3386
Tel. 516-632-9742; fax 632-9731; email: indstudy at sunysb.edu; 
website: w.sunysb.edu/indstudy

Yours,

Ellen Raven
ABIA Bibliography Project
IIAS, Leiden





From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Mon Jun 23 14:40:00 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 14:40:00 +0000
Subject: epics and oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227031172.23782.16447457188797926997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Srini: "This suggests that they at least don't have manuscripts of the
Jaiminiya grAmageyagAna and other songbooks."
True! I just found Jacob's words: "traditions which do not use (have 
never used?) writing at all, for example Nambudiri Samavedins." too 
general in case of the Nambudiris, who have important literary 
traditions indeed.

Klaus






From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi  Mon Jun 23 15:16:02 1997
From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 15:16:02 +0000
Subject: Derivation of word "Hindu"
Message-ID: <161227031175.23782.1086207585223511774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jacob Baltuch wrote:"(I'm just nitpicking but) this is the first time I 
hear of a Hebrew version of I Maccabees.
As long as we're dealing with names for India, any conjectures out
there as to the etymology of "meluhha" the Sumerian name for India?"

Sorry for Maccabees! As to Meluhha Sanskrit mleccha, Pali milakkha has 
been suggested (but also severely criticized).

Klaus

P.S. I shall be away about three weeks and not checking my e-mail.






From wilke at theol.unibe.ch  Mon Jun 23 16:21:06 1997
From: wilke at theol.unibe.ch (Annette Wilke)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 18:21:06 +0200
Subject: ShitalA
Message-ID: <161227031177.23782.3181392869819515624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear indologists,

Some time ago I was inquiring whether "folk deities" do have
SahasranAmastotras. I would like to specify this question regarding the
popular "regional" North Indian goddess ShitalA. She does have hymns of
praise (e.g. an aSTaka) and her own myth. I am curious to know

1. Does ShitalA also have a SahasranAmastotra and do you know details about
it (time of composition, date etc.)

2. Nicholas in his article on the goddess suggests that ShitalA is a generic
name, only used in rituals. Otherwise the goddesses identified with ShitalA
are called Mother-of-such-and-such a village. He argues (as does Babb) that
such village deities are rather colourless and pretty much the same. I doubt
this contention and recall, among others, E. Meyers book on Ankalamman
(Tamil Nadu) who has her very own myths and rituals, despite of being
identified with Mariyamman.
I think it is a rather common practice that deities who are identified with
a deity of a wider geographic distribution still keep their own names. Is it
so? Is ShitalA merely a generic name?

Thanks for your reply,
Annette Wilke
================================================================================
Dr. Annette Wilke
University of Berne
Institute for the Science of Religions
Lerchenweg 36
CH-3000 Bern 9
Tel.: 031 / 631 35 81  Fax.: 031 / 631 35 51






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 24 03:07:51 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 20:07:51 -0700
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031183.23782.6603127288844648152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




Irfan Omar writes:

Dear Members of the List:

The word 'hind' is always understood as referring to the region east of 
the Indus, that is India. Both in Arabic as well as Persian it has no 
derogatory meaning. I am not too familiar with Turkish though. I know of 
several Arabs having their last name 'hindi', implying either
-----------------------------------------------------------

This is what I've been told also. In fact, Ayatollah Khomeini
who wrote his opus in the early part of this century i.e. 30s 
signed himself as "Hindi"( belonging to Hind). His ancestors migrated
to Kashmir from Iran and lived for 2 generations.His great grandfather
remigrated to Iran. The family moved  around quite a bit in Iran before 
Khomeini settled down in Qom. During their travels, his family owned and 
ran a garage for some time which was called "Garaaj-e-Hindi"
locally. In this case however, when the Shah tried to discredit him 
before his return to Iran, the Savak apparently passed pamphlets
which refered deregatorily to Khomeini as an outsider i.e. Hendi who had 
no right to be running IRan. This MAY be the reason why "Hind" may have 
had had negative connotations over a short period of time.


Krishna


 


---------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------





From omar at astro.ocis.temple.edu  Tue Jun 24 00:48:56 1997
From: omar at astro.ocis.temple.edu (iao)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 20:48:56 -0400
Subject: hindu once again
Message-ID: <161227031181.23782.11670022337603092826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear Members of the List:

The word 'hind' is always understood as referring to the region east of 
the Indus, that is India. Both in Arabic as well as Persian it has no 
derogatory meaning. I am not too familiar with Turkish though. I know of 
several Arabs having their last name 'hindi', implying either their 
ancesters migrated from the east (India) or that they had some sort of 
trade or educational pursuit relating to India.

In fact, deriving its significance from Persian, perhaps, in Urdu, hindu 
often meant a 'pandit' or a learned man, (or a long-haired man). But 
anyhow I have never heard (and believe me I have heard a lot of things 
about hindus growing up as a muslim in India) the implication 'chor'.

regards,

Irfan Omar
Temple University


 On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Inst. Of Asian Cultures wrote:

> 
> I have heard, but cannot confirm it, that one of the meanings of hindu, or
> a derivation of it, in Arabic/Turk/Persian language(s) means 'chor'
> (thief). Perhaps that's a possible reason the term 'hindu' is considered
> derogatory. 
> 
> Sushil Jain  
> 
> 
> 





From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr  Mon Jun 23 19:26:03 1997
From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 21:26:03 +0200
Subject: aatape (vi)dhaarita.h
Message-ID: <161227031179.23782.7924342140805459515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


 ----
De : Joel Tatelman <tatelman at total.net>
A : Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
Date : samedi 21 juin 1997 23:50
Objet : aatape (vi)dhaarita.h

Dear List Members,

I am revising my translation of the Puur.naavadaana (Divyaavadaana no. 2) for publication and would be most grateful for your comments on a problematic expression found in two contiguous sentences. These are found respectively, on p. 20.13-14 and p. 20.15-16 of Vaidya's edition of the Divyaavadaana (= Cowell-Neil edition, p. 33.12-14 and p. 33.16).

The two sentences run as follows:

1. tato va.niggrame.na sa.mjaataamar.se.na .sa.s.te.h kaar.saapa.naanaam arthaayaatape dhaarita.h .

2. kasyaarthe yu.smaabhi.h puu.rna aatape vidhaarita.h .

My original translations, about which I am now having doubts, are as follows:

1. Then the [members of the] merchants' guild became angry and imposed [on Purna] a fine of sixty silver coins.

2. For what reason did you impose a fine on Purna?

E. Burnouf (Introduction ? l'histoire du buddhisme indien, 2nd ed., Paris, 1876, p. 220), who translated this story from two MSS. and from the Tibetan version in the Muulasarvaastivaada Vinaya, interprets these as meaning that the members of the guild forcibly exposed Purna to the heat of the  sun as a way of forcing him to pay the 60 kar.saapa.nas (this penalty for dealing independently of the guild has been mentioned earlier in the narrative).

F. Edgerton (BHSD, p. 91b, s.v. aatapa) translates as I do, but (1) thinks the passages may be corrupt and (2) admits not really understanding the meaning of the crucial expressions "aatape dhaarita.h" and "aatape vidhaarita.h": he conjectures: "kept on a hot spot?".

Regrettably, I do not read Tibetan. At the moment, I am tending to favour Burnouf. Part of the reason for this is that the sentence following no. 2 above - raaj?a.h pauru.seyair d.r.s.ta.h - suggests that the king's men came along and saw Purna staked out (or whatever) in the sun and then, as the text goes on to say, reported the matter to the king. However, it's not exactly ironclad evidence. Therefore,

Any comments or observations would be most appreciated.

Thank you in advance,

Joel Tatelman.

Dear Joel,
I suppose that the commentary of Haradatta (1100-1300 AD according to Kane) on Apastamba dharma-sUtra 2.10.25.11 might help you to decide: the customary practice of putting someone in the sun (or the cold, or to deprive him of food) to oblige him to pay the money he owned to a creditor (RNa) or to the king (kara) was (at least) known in Haradatta's time.
Apastamba runs as follows :
na cAsya viSaye kSudhA rogeNa himAtapAbhyAM vAvasIded abhAvAd buddhi-pUrvaM vA kaz cid.
B?hler (SBE II p.162) translates : " And in his realm, no (brahmana) should suffer hunger, sickness, cold, or heat, be it through want or intentionally. "
Haradatta s commentary (See Apastamba s aphorisms edited by Dr. G. B?hler, 3d edition, Bombay 1932 p. 191) wants to explain the use of abhAvAt (by lack) and of buddhi-pUrvaM (intentionally).
The first is evident : the king must provide brahmins with food, etc. if they are in want
How this kind of suffering may be caused intentionally is more difficult to grasp, Haradatta explains it as follows:
yadA kaz cid RNaM karaM vA dApyo bhavati tadA nAsau himAtapayor upanivezitavyo bhojanAd vA niroddhavyaH
" When someone must be obliged to refund a debt or a tax, he must not be put in the cold or in the heat, nor prevented from eating "
If, at times Haradatta, like many commentators, is using far-fetched arguments, the commentary seems to be here quite convincing, in my eyes at least.
Hoping it helps
J.F.



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From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 24 05:08:23 1997
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 22:08:23 -0700
Subject: Dome in Mosque Architecture originated in India before Islam
Message-ID: <161227031184.23782.2646578011166891224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists

Namaste,

In ancient times in India, there was evolved a method of constructing
interlocking domes. This technique was used mainly in the making of 
roofs for Buddhist Stupas in around 300 B.C. onwards i.e. 2300 years 
back. The Stupa at Sanchi in Madhya Pradesh is one surviving example of 
this architecture. There are other examples of such  architecture in 
other parts of India.

The style of interlocking structures had been perfected by the Romans in 
the interlocking arch which they used in constructing bridges and 
aqueducts. The Roman interlocking arch is a one-dimensional structure, 
but the interlocking dome is a three dimensional structure. Again, this 
was perfected in the days when we did not have cement or concrete. Hence 
the technique of constructing domed roofs which originated in ancient 
India 2,300 years back can be looked upon as a significant invention of
humankind to defy the rules of gravity.

It is from this architectural style of the Buddhist Stupa that - the
Gumbaz - the Islamic style of constructing domed roofs on Masjids could 
have originated. And interestingly, while this architectural style 
totally disappeared from medieval and modern India as a symbol of 
indigenous architecture, it was preserved and popularised through 
Islamic architecture all over the Islamic world (as also in India in the 
mosques that were constructed during Muslim Rule).

The interlocking dome is reported to have gone from ancient India to
 pre-Islamic Sassanian Persia, and from there further on to the Eastern 
Roman (Byzantine) Empire  which had Constantinople (Istanbul of today) 
as its capital.

 The famous Sophia (Selimiye) Mosque at Istanbul overlooking the 
Bosphorous straits which separate Europe from Asia in Turkey has domes 
which closely resemble the dome over a Buddhist Stupa. This mosque was 
originally constructed by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine as a 
Basilica of St. Sophia. The minarets were added in 1453 A.D. after the 
town came under the rule of the Ottoman (Uthman) Turks. Without the 
minarets, the structure would strongly resemble a Buddhist Stupa.

 Another fact supporting the hypothesis that the Islamic style of
 constructing Gumbaz is borrowed from outside the Islamic world is that 
the oldest and most holy mosque (Kaaba) at Mecca does not have a dome 
over it. It is only the mosques constructed later which have the dome as 
a roof.

 Today the dome (Gumbaz) has become so stereotyped with Islamic 
architecture that it would be fantastic to claim that it could have 
originated in ancient India or anywhere outside the Islamic world. The 
Interlocking dome - called Anda (egg) in Sanskrit texts on architecture 
dates back to 2300 years; while Islamic architecture is 1400 years old, 
hence the probability that the Islamic style Gumbaz originated from the 
earlier Stupa architecture of ancient India.

If you are interested read more about this at the site "INDIA'S 
CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD CULTURE".

Visit the home page for this site:

http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/

This site aims to satisfy the urge of Indologists, NRIs who have 
distanced themselves from their roots and others who would like to know 
about the advances made in ancient India in the fields of science and 
technology and their transmission the world over.

I am looking for more such authentic references about the advances made 
in the construction of domed roofs in ancient India in:

1) Dictionaries and Encyclopedias
2) References to Indian architectural styles techniques in the 
chronicles of foreigners who visited ancient India 
3) Similar references to India in current western literature (on the web 
too)

 I want to continue this kind of study in association with those 
interested in ancient Indian History with specific reference to advances 
made in science and technology.

Sudheer 



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Tue Jun 24 15:21:54 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 11:21:54 -0400
Subject: EkakSara and other ingenious forms of Slokas
Message-ID: <161227031188.23782.542836116248847592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>EkakSara sloka i.e. "dadAdo dudda-dud-dAdI

Arunakirinaatar has done something similar in his
Kantar-antaati in Tamil.  One of verses in this
antaati runs as

	titattattat tittittititaatai...

With this verse he is said to have won the debate
against Villiputturaar of the Tamil Baaratam fame.

-Srini.





From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Tue Jun 24 16:30:44 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 11:30:44 -0500
Subject: Hoch/Neben/Vor
Message-ID: <161227031192.23782.4340740812019393279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Working through an article from 1889 on Vedic Accent, I'm trying to be
sure I'm translating these three terms correctly, as Leumann is arguing
for a restructuring of Vedic accent viz. ZB, so it's not always clear what
he means:

Hochton-- udaatta
Nebenton-- svarita
Vorton--  anudaatta

I'm feeling like nebenton/vorton are more likely anudaatta/svarita-- but
the evidence he cites seems contradictory.  To rule out a variable--can
anyone tell me the traditional German terms viz. Vedic accent?  

jrg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.







From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Tue Jun 24 09:45:50 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 11:45:50 +0200
Subject: oral traditions
Message-ID: <161227031186.23782.9531587437436855923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>"Can we
>believe that these dynasties with their legendary riches, and the remarkable
>intellectual and cultural life of India in the time of the Buddha and
>Mah?v?ra, existed in a totally illiterate sphere? It is certainly true that
>intellectual activity in India has always strongly favored oral over written
>means of expression, and both von Hin?ber and Falk have effectively put to
>rest the already discredited skepticism about the possibility of oral
>composition and preservation of the Veda, P?.nini's grammar, etc. (see e.g.
>Falk pp.321--7). But the fact that P?.nini did not use writing in composing
>the A.a.t?dhy?y? does not necessarily mean that he was illiterate (cf. Falk
>p.259); it may only mean that writing was not considered an appropriate
>vehicle for intellectual endeavors of his kind. ... Thus one is tempted to
think along the lines of William Bright
>(cited by Falk, p.290) of some type of writing that was "perhaps used for
>commercial purposes, but not for religious or legal texts."[15]

If I remember correctly, there is a parallell in West Africa to this
situation. Timbuktoo in the Middle Ages had a university famous in the
Islamic world, where the scholars wrote in Arabic, but at the same time
indigenous literature continued to be oral. Evidently, the presence of a
writing system does not mean that everything is written down. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de  Tue Jun 24 16:23:09 1997
From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 18:23:09 +0200
Subject: EkakSara and other ingenious forms of Slokas
Message-ID: <161227031190.23782.11919617383472484523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> >EkakSara sloka i.e. "dadAdo dudda-dud-dAdI

> Arunakirinaatar has done something similar in his
>       titattattat tittittititaatai...

There are 'plenty' of them in Telugu; Ekaakshara, dwitwaakshara, palindromes,
dwyarthi kaavya-s, use only: sa ri ga ma pa da ni, ..... you ask for it and
you get it!

A good start would be the compilations; _chaaTu padya maNimanjari_ and
_chaaTu padya ratnaakaram_ by  Veturi Prabkakara Sastry and Deepala Picchayya
Sastry respectively. Many such verses are attributed to Tenali Ramakrishna 
(aka Tenali Raman). Also check for pingaLi soorana's  (one of the 
'ashTadiggaja-s in Krishnadeva Raya of Vijayanagara's court) works; 
esp. _kaLaapoorNOdayam_.

_raaghava paanDaveeyam_ is probably the best example of a "dwvyarthi kaavya",
narrating the stories of both Ramayana and Bhaarata in same.

Regards,
Sreenivas

-- 
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de






From mrabe at artic.edu  Wed Jun 25 00:34:58 1997
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 19:34:58 -0500
Subject: Dome in Mosque Architecture originated in India before Islam
Message-ID: <161227031193.23782.16750790790711626762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sudheer,

I'd intended to reply earlier, but this second posting is an invitation to
rifle something off the top, rather than tracking down the necessary
citations:

Basically, I think you are mistaken in your belief that architectural
vaulting that incorporates the _true arch_ or dome was known in India prior
to  the Islamic period!

The much early Buddhist stupas were solid core mounds of brick, later
dressed with stone revetments: they did not make use of voussoirs, or
wedge-shaped blocks that distribute weight along a curvilinear arch.

Instead, traditional Indian zilpins, and their culturals kinsmen among the
Javanese and Khmer of Southeast Asia, made use of the CORBELLED arch (and
vaults that extend further to cover interior spaces).  I can explain the
difference further off-list, maybe with xeroxed illustrations to a postal
address...

Meanwhile you might like to track down an article A.K. Coomaraswamy wrote
decades ago on domes:  it may be republished here:

Coomaraswamy, Ananda Kentish, 1877-1947:  _Essays in early Indian
architecture ; edited and with an introduction by  Michael W. Meister_:
New Delhi : Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts : Oxford University
Press, 1992.:  xxviii, 151 p. : ill. ; 32 cm.

Oh...here's the original citation:  "Symbolism of the Dome," _Indian
Historical Quarterly_ xiv (March 1938), pp. 1-56

Hope this helps,

Michael Rabe
Assoc Prof. Art History
Saint Xavier University
&
The School of the Art Institute of Chicago

>Dear Indologists
>
>Namaste,
>
>In ancient times in India, there was evolved a method of constructing
>interlocking domes. This technique was used mainly in the making of
>roofs for Buddhist Stupas in around 300 B.C. onwards i.e. 2300 years
>back. The Stupa at Sanchi in Madhya Pradesh is one surviving example of
>this architecture. There are other examples of such  architecture in
>other parts of India.
>
>The style of interlocking structures had been perfected by the Romans in
>the interlocking arch which they used in constructing bridges and
>aqueducts. The Roman interlocking arch is a one-dimensional structure,
>but the interlocking dome is a three dimensional structure. Again, this
>was perfected in the days when we did not have cement or concrete. Hence
>the technique of constructing domed roofs which originated in ancient
>India 2,300 years back can be looked upon as a significant invention of
>humankind to defy the rules of gravity.
>
>It is from this architectural style of the Buddhist Stupa that - the
>Gumbaz - the Islamic style of constructing domed roofs on Masjids could
>have originated. And interestingly, while this architectural style
>totally disappeared from medieval and modern India as a symbol of
>indigenous architecture, it was preserved and popularised through
>Islamic architecture all over the Islamic world (as also in India in the
>mosques that were constructed during Muslim Rule).
>
>The interlocking dome is reported to have gone from ancient India to
> pre-Islamic Sassanian Persia, and from there further on to the Eastern
>Roman (Byzantine) Empire  which had Constantinople (Istanbul of today)
>as its capital.
>
> The famous Sophia (Selimiye) Mosque at Istanbul overlooking the
>Bosphorous straits which separate Europe from Asia in Turkey has domes
>which closely resemble the dome over a Buddhist Stupa. This mosque was
>originally constructed by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine as a
>Basilica of St. Sophia. The minarets were added in 1453 A.D. after the
>town came under the rule of the Ottoman (Uthman) Turks. Without the
>minarets, the structure would strongly resemble a Buddhist Stupa.
>
> Another fact supporting the hypothesis that the Islamic style of
> constructing Gumbaz is borrowed from outside the Islamic world is that
>the oldest and most holy mosque (Kaaba) at Mecca does not have a dome
>over it. It is only the mosques constructed later which have the dome as
>a roof.
>
> Today the dome (Gumbaz) has become so stereotyped with Islamic
>architecture that it would be fantastic to claim that it could have
>originated in ancient India or anywhere outside the Islamic world. The
>Interlocking dome - called Anda (egg) in Sanskrit texts on architecture
>dates back to 2300 years; while Islamic architecture is 1400 years old,
>hence the probability that the Islamic style Gumbaz originated from the
>earlier Stupa architecture of ancient India.
>
>If you are interested read more about this at the site "INDIA'S
>CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD CULTURE".
>
>Visit the home page for this site:
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/
>
>This site aims to satisfy the urge of Indologists, NRIs who have
>distanced themselves from their roots and others who would like to know
>about the advances made in ancient India in the fields of science and
>technology and their transmission the world over.
>
>I am looking for more such authentic references about the advances made
>in the construction of domed roofs in ancient India in:
>
>1) Dictionaries and Encyclopedias
>2) References to Indian architectural styles techniques in the
>chronicles of foreigners who visited ancient India
>3) Similar references to India in current western literature (on the web
>too)
>
> I want to continue this kind of study in association with those
>interested in ancient Indian History with specific reference to advances
>made in science and technology.
>
>Sudheer
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>---------------------------------------------------------







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jun 25 05:22:08 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 01:22:08 -0400
Subject: Indus Culture, Durga, and CilappatikAram
Message-ID: <161227031195.23782.9271728235459784993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An examination of Classical Tamil texts and CilappatikAram reveals that the
animal which has been mentioned in CilappatikAram as the vehicle of
KoRRavai/Durga is better translated as the male blackbuck (antilope
cervicapra). The words 'kalai' and 'iralai' were used to refer to the males
of antelopes as well as deers. To indicate which species was being referred
to, the poets  often added the epithet 'branched-horned' or 'twisted-horned'.
The animal vehicle of Durga is described as the black twisted-horned 'kalai'.
So it is clearly the blackbuck. The picture of the blackbuck is available at
the following site.

http://members.aol.com/zoonet/pictures/blackbuck.jpg

As I have said earlier, nowhere else in Indian literature, the blackbuck is
mentioned as the vehicle of DurgA. Further, no other text mentions a
priestess worshipping in the company of the blackbuck which she rides to get
to the altar. On the other hand, some Indus seals depicting scenes
interpreted by some scholars as depicting Goddess worship show an animal with
twisted horns. The animal has been interpreted variously as markhor (capra
falconeri), blackbuck or a domesticated variety of some wild goat.  Both
markhor and blackbuck belong to the same zoological family of Bovidae. 

According to "Status Accounts for Selected Threatened Indian Mammals", "The
Markhor was once widespread in rugged mountain ranges within the
north-western great Himalayan Chain of Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, its
range also extending in a southerly arc down through the mountain ranges of
Waziristan and Baluchistan in Pakistan. The largest species of goat, with
adult males weighing up to 100kg, it is a striking animal since both sexes
bear long sharp-keeled horns twisted into a tight or open spiral, and in
addition males have a long neck mane, pantaloons and strong markings....The
Markhor occurs in forest steppe and Artemesia steppe country at altitudes of
from 700 - 4,000 m, with access to cliffs (which form its refuge from
predators) and suitable terrain below 2,200 m where temperatures are moderate
in winter."  The markhor can be seen at the following site. 

http://www.zzz.ee/zoo/loom/markuur.html

At least one seal (Fig. 7.13 in Deciphering the Indus Script) seems to show
an animal without any mane. In any case, whether the Indus seals depict a
markhor or a blackbuck or some other animal, their similarity to
CilappatikAram with respect to the participation of an animal with twisted
horns in a worship ceremony with a priestess assisted by other females is
remarkable. If there is a scholarly consensus regarding the Indus seal (Fig.
14. 35 in Deciphering the Indus Script) as depicting an early form of DurgA
worship, CilappatikAram has uniquely preserved some important features of
Goddess worship traceable to the Indus culture.

Any comments from list members will be appreciated.


Regards

S. Palaniappan





From jagat at polyinter.com  Wed Jun 25 14:01:07 1997
From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 10:01:07 -0400
Subject: EkakSara and other ingenious forms of Slokas
Message-ID: <161227031203.23782.12522866814053865235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Krishna,

In answer to your question on 'ingenious forms of slokas'. To my knowledge
these are known as 'citra-kaavya'. I cannot give you a history of the form,
but I know that Ruupa Gosvaamin and Kavi KarNapuura of Bengal in the 16th
century wrote a number of this type of verse. I don't have their works in
front of me, so I will not be able to give you a detailed account of the
various and sundry forms that they use. I do have a copy of Jiiva
Gosvaamin's RasaamRta-ZeSa, in which he gives a number of examples of
citrakavitaani (taken from Ruupa's Stavamaalaa) under the anupraasa section
of zabdaalankaara. Since this book is written on the model of
SaahityadarpaNa, you might wish to look there (my copy is in a box somewhere).

DvakSaraM:

rasaasaara-susaarorur asuraariH sasaarasaH
saMsaaraasirasau raase suriraMsuH sasaara saH

carcoruroci ruccoraa ruciro 'raM caraacare
caurocaaro `ciraac ciiraM rucaa caarur acuucurat 

dhare dharaadharadharaM dhaaraadharadhuraarudhi
dhiiradhii raararaadhaadhirodhaM raadhaa dhuraMdharaM 

EkaakSaraM

ninunno 'nanaM nuunaM naanunonnaanano nuniiH
naanenaanaaM ninunnenaM naanaun naanaanano nanu

For your help and mine, this is glossed as follows by Baladeva VidyaabhuuSaNa:

Nanu, kim evaM gopaalakaM kRSNaM bahuzlaaghase iti vadantaM kaMcit prati
kazcid aaha--nanu bho vaadin! naanaananaz caturaasyo brahmaa inaM gopaalaM
naanaut naastaut, etena api tu astaud eva. NuunaM nizcitaM. Sa kiidRzaH?
NaanenaanaaM prabhuunaam indraadiinaaM ninut 'nuda preraNe kvibantaH'
sarvadevataadhipatir apiity arthaH. Sa punaH kiidRzaH sannamaud ityaaha--na
anuunaM kRtsnaM yathaa syaat tathaa unnaani azruklinnaani aananaani mukhaani
yasya saH. undii kledane dhaatuH. bhiityaazruzoSaad iti bhaavaH.
anunayatiityanuniiH. inaM gopaalaM prabhuM kiidRzaM ninunnaM duure
kSiptamanasaH zakaTasya tadaaviSTasyaasurasyaananaM jiivanaM yena tam.

This is given as is, with one or two obvious errors taken out.

These are not technically citra-kaavya, which, as the name suggests, are
meant to draw a picture or pattern. 
Such as padma-bandha, mahaapadma-bandha, cakra-bandha, sarpabandha,
murajabandha, gomuutrikaabandha, praatilomyaanulomyasama, sarvatobhadra, etc.

These are extensions on the idea of the palindrome and other word plays
found in other languages. Thus,in padmabandha the first three syllables of
the first quarter = reverse of last three of fourth; last three of first
quarter = first three of second (reversed); last three of second = first
three of third; last three of third = first three of fourth.

        kalavaakya sadaaloka kalodaara milaavaka
        kavalaadyaadbhutaanuuka kanuutaabhiira baalaka (n.b., b and v are
interchangeable in Bengal).

Sarvatobhadra: each quarter is a palindrome.

        raasaavahaa haavasaaraa sa lalaasa salaalasaa
        balaaramaa maaralavahaasamaadadamaasahaa

The complete palindrome is praatilomyaanulomyasama:

        kaadhidaa sasvabhaa raadhe maano maastu ramaadhave
        vedhamaarastu maa no maadheraabhaa svasadaadhikaa

KarNapuura adds zaMkhabandha, chatrabandha, khaDgabandha, zaarngabandha,
gadaabandha and pataakaabandha, as well as a third type of word play based
on rhyme: pratipaadasarvayamakam, sarvayamakam, pratyakSarayamakam

Sarvayamakam:
        sasaara saa sasaarasaa 'sa-saara-saasa-saarasaa
        sasaara saasasaara saa sa saarasaasa-saara-saa

Please don't ask me for translations!

I am sure that such types of versification have antecedents in the
mahaakaavyas, but it is quite possible that Ruupa and KarNapuura may have
made some original contributions. Ruupa seems to have made some such
contributions in his work on the virudaavaliis, which as a poetic form has
the strongest tradition, it would appear, in the GauDiiya VaiSNava world. I
would welcome any comments on virudaavalii as I have been able to find
nothing helpful which predates Ruupa Gosvaamin's (d. 1568)
_Virudaavalii-lakSaNam_. Virudas are poems which use a more occidental style
(if I can call it that) rhythmic metre, characterized by strong rhyming
patterns.


           -------------------------------------------------
                        Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D.
                          1262 rue St-Joseph
                      Val-David (Qu?bec) J0T 2N0
			819-322-6146, 322-3382
                         jagat at polyinter.com
           -------------------------------------------------






From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu  Wed Jun 25 17:12:35 1997
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 10:12:35 -0700
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031210.23782.13825228625893170224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Jakub,

Here's one:

Siegel, Lee. 1978. Sacred and Profane Dimensions of Love in Indian
Traditions As Exemplified in the G?tagovinda of Jayadeva. Delhi: Oxford
University Press.

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley

At 02:46 PM 6/25/97 BST, you wrote:
>In the course of my own reading of Jayadeva's Gitagovinda I found it very
>interesting to follow translations (I have Keyt's, Miller's, Gurudas
>Mukhopadhyay's - which is rather indebted to the two earlier ones;
>ofcourse I know of William Jones' one) how they often depart from the
>original, leaving out unclear passages or just saying something else. I
>sort of got the wish to collect as many translations of this work as
>possible into English and would be interested to know about translations
>into other non-Indian languages as well.   Any reference much welcome.
>
>    Thanks
>
>
>Jakub Cejka
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>jakub at unipune.ernet.in     till July 10
>
>(My new e-mail address will be known in September. 
>Meanwhile if necessary, contact my friend had at pdas.cz)
>
>
>
>






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Wed Jun 25 08:59:44 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 10:59:44 +0200
Subject: N. Jha
Message-ID: <161227031197.23782.1430135981439764210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Has anybody on the list seen reactions to N. Jha's attempt to dechiffre the
Indus script? I would be interested in references.

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From jagat at polyinter.com  Wed Jun 25 17:14:04 1997
From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 13:14:04 -0400
Subject: EkakSara and other ingenious forms of Slokas
Message-ID: <161227031208.23782.16169616254037694996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Excuse a couple of obvious errors in my last posting.

DvaakSaram should be dvyakSaram

The sarvatobhadra verse should read

        raasaavahaa haavasaaraa saa lalaasa salaalasaa
        balaa ramaa maaralava haasam aadad amaasahaa

PunaH kSamyataam.
           -------------------------------------------------
                        Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D.
                          1262 rue St-Joseph
                      Val-David (Qu?bec) J0T 2N0
			819-322-6146, 322-3382
                         jagat at polyinter.com
           -------------------------------------------------






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 25 21:07:31 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 14:07:31 -0700
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031215.23782.16055578970957629985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


This is regarding Jayadevas Gita Govinda and its translations:

Among Indian authoresses who have attempted to take a look at the "Gita 
Govinda", we have Kapila Vatsyayan and Monika Verma. A perusal of Kapila 
Vatsyayanas works would be interesting in that it compares Bundi and 
Mewari Versions of the Gita Govinda. She has also written
up a book on the Assamese pictorial depiction of the Gita Govinda.


I also have a question for people who are interested in the Gita 
Govinda:

Jayadeva is variously depicted as having been a native of Orissa
and Bengal( since there is a village called Kendubilva , the village
where Jayadeva lived in both states) or of KErala, since there is a 
popular style of singing in Kerala called "sOpAnageetham" which utilises 
Jayadevas Ashtapadis. My question is:
Has this question been satisfactorily resolved ? Is it now known for 
sure as to which place he belonged to?
REgards 
Krishna





At 02:46 PM 6/25/97 BST, you wrote:
In the course of my own reading of Jayadeva's Gitagovinda I found it 
very interesting to follow translations (I have Keyt's, Miller's, 
Gurudas Mukhopadhyay's - which is rather indebted to the two earlier 
ones;ofcourse I know of William Jones' one) how they often depart from 
the original, leaving out unclear passages or just saying something 
else. I sort of got the wish to collect as many translations of this 
work as possible into English and would be interested to know about 
translations into other non-Indian languages as well.   Any reference 
much welcome.

     Thanks

Jakub Cejka




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From silk at wmich.edu  Wed Jun 25 19:46:11 1997
From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 15:46:11 -0400
Subject: International Journal of Hindu Studies holdings?
Message-ID: <161227031212.23782.6174678779176887032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you very much for your kindness in sending the article on Ajatasattu.
I wonder if I could trouble you to inform me of the author's address (email
/or  snailmail if no email).  Again, so many thanks for you kindness!

Jonathan

Jonathan Silk
SILK at wmich.edu







From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA  Wed Jun 25 20:02:43 1997
From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 16:02:43 -0400
Subject: International Journal of Hindu Studies holdings?
Message-ID: <161227031213.23782.15259225071819235630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, jonathan silk wrote:

> Thank you very much for your kindness in sending the article on Ajatasattu.
> I wonder if I could trouble you to inform me of the author's address (email
> /or  snailmail if no email).  Again, so many thanks for you kindness!
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> Jonathan Silk
> SILK at wmich.edu

You are most welcome, Jonathan. Dan Forsyth's email address is
<forsyth at uscolo.edu>. 

Best, sushil







From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu  Wed Jun 25 21:18:01 1997
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 16:18:01 -0500
Subject: One last plea re. Accent
Message-ID: <161227031216.23782.13366493851065814139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I realize I'm bordering on spam, but the riddle of accent and meaning
draws me deeper and like a gambler with a "sure bet"-- I'm hooked now that
I've invested so much time.

First, many thanks to Peter Wyzlic, Ashok Aklujkar, Michael Witzel, 
Avinash Sathaye, and George Thompson for their help.

Following their leads, I'm looking for a reference Peter kindly
passed on, related to the du.s.ta.h 'sabda.h..." passage in Patan~jali's 
MahaabhaaSya, beginning with "mantro hiina.h...", which he indicates  is
to be found in the Paa.niniiya'sik.saa (karika 52 or so--I cannot locate 
this resource in sufficient time here in Iowa). Reputedly, its
origin has been traced in the 'Satapathabraahma.na.  I would be interested
in teh citation of this passage, the relevant text itself, and ANY related
citations of it in other literature as my efforts in the
VaidikapadaanukramakoSa have been fruitless--or too ambiguous--with  the
info at hand.

With promises to both repay all favor debts, and be dutifully silent for
at least a month or so after completing this portion of my research-- With
respectful thanks as well,

jrg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa       University of Iowa
319-335-2164             319-335-4034
http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
than that of which it is the transformation.








From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Jun 25 15:35:45 1997
From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 16:35:45 +0100
Subject: EkakSara and other ingenious forms of Slokas
Message-ID: <161227031205.23782.11177859300707071121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On citrakAvya see now Siegfried Lienhard: "Text-Bild-Modelle der
klassischen indischen Dichtung", Nachrichten der Akademie der
Wissenschaften in Goettingen, phil.-hist. Kl., 1996, Nr. 2 (p. 29-54).

Best regards,

Georg v. Simson







From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Jun 25 16:12:00 1997
From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 17:12:00 +0100
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031207.23782.1087507451342624004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>In the course of my own reading of Jayadeva's Gitagovinda I found it very
>interesting to follow translations (I have Keyt's, Miller's, Gurudas
>Mukhopadhyay's - which is rather indebted to the two earlier ones;
>ofcourse I know of William Jones' one) how they often depart from the
>original, leaving out unclear passages or just saying something else. I
>sort of got the wish to collect as many translations of this work as
>possible into English and would be interested to know about translations
>into other non-Indian languages as well.   Any reference much welcome.
>
>    Thanks>
>
>Jakub Cejka

Here some more translations:
Into Latin by Christian Lassen, Bonn 1836;
a wonderful German translation by Friedrich Rueckert, ZDMG 1 (1837), p. 128
ff. (reprint as Insel-Buecherei No. 303);
into French by G. Courtillier, Paris 1904;
into Dutch by B. Faddegon, Santpoort 1932;
into English by E. Arnold, London 1875; by Lakshminarasimha Sastri, Madras
1956; by Lee Siegel (Sacred and Profane Dimensions of Love in Indian
Traditions ...), Delhi (O.U.P.) 1978.

Best regards,

Georg v. Simson







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jun 25 21:27:20 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 17:27:20 -0400
Subject: tantric and non-tantric forms of Goddess worship in CilappatikAram
Message-ID: <161227031218.23782.8430820249109466159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While the elaborate description of KoRRavai/Durga worship by the hunters in
CilappatikAram does not seem to have any tantric element of magic or
power-imbued words, there is another episode in the text clearly showing the
effect of DurgA mantra.

Before they reach the hunters' village, the hero KOvalan, the heroine KaNNAki
and their companion the Jain nun Kavunti, pass through a forested area. As
KaNNaki and Kavunti rest, KOvalan goes to a pond to get some water to drink.
On his way, a forest-dwelling goddess takes the guise of an associate of
MAtavi, KOvalan's courtesan-lover, and talks to him. Having been warned
earlier that he might encounter a goddess who will trick him, to find out who
she really is, he says he he utters "the mantra of the Lady who rides the
leaping buck" or DurgA mantra which is supposed to remove sorcery.
Immediately, she confesses the truth and apologizes and requests him not to
tell the wife and the nun what happened.

KOvalan is from a rich merchant family from the capital city of PukAr. His
marriage was performed with a brahmin priest and circumambulation of the
fire. He knows the DurgA mantra. 

On the other hand, the simple hunters in the dry region who seem to maintain
Durga worship traditions elements of which go back to the Indus culture, do
not show any mantric/tantric elements. Their worship is based only on
possession, adoration and sacrifice.

Thus we see a correlation between the presence of tantric knowledge and
socio-cultural background of persons in CilappatikAram. This suggests to me
that an originally simple cult of Goddess was tantrified among the elites of
the society.

Regards

S. Palaniappan





From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Wed Jun 25 23:23:15 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 18:23:15 -0500
Subject: Q: Translations of Kavya-commentaries? (repost)
Message-ID: <161227031199.23782.3414995141272270615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[I am reposting an old query of mine to which I noticed no reply   maybe
it was just overlooked]



On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit wrote:

> Out of mere curiosity:
> So far, I have come across only Mallinatha's Ghantapatha having been
> translated into English (only the comm.on first six cantos of Kir., by
> Roodbergen).  I'd like to know which other kavya-commentaries have been
> translated/summarized/studied in English (etc.) 
>   Thank you for any reference.
> 
> And also: I have the impression that despite various critical editions of
> kavya-texts there were very few attempts on critical establishing of the
> text of the commentaries on the edited kavyas.  Often only one manuscript
> of a commentary printed had been examined. Which kavya-comms have been
> critically edited? 
> 
> 

I feel commentaries on kavyas are often an interesting piece of work by
itself. But I know of not only no renderings of their contents into a
modern language (except the example of Roodbergen's thesis mentioned
above) but not even of some thorough studies of kavya-commentaries. They
are interestin both for the comments given as also for their language
peculiarities. 
    If you know of works dealing with kavya comms. please let me know.


Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________
Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
Ganeshkhind, Pune, India  411 007

e-mail:  jakub at unipune.ernet.in  
(valid till June 97 approx.) 






From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Wed Jun 25 23:38:05 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 18:38:05 -0500
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031201.23782.7396835754046950230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the course of my own reading of Jayadeva's Gitagovinda I found it very
interesting to follow translations (I have Keyt's, Miller's, Gurudas
Mukhopadhyay's - which is rather indebted to the two earlier ones;
ofcourse I know of William Jones' one) how they often depart from the
original, leaving out unclear passages or just saying something else. I
sort of got the wish to collect as many translations of this work as
possible into English and would be interested to know about translations
into other non-Indian languages as well.   Any reference much welcome.

    Thanks


Jakub Cejka
---------------------------------------------------------------
jakub at unipune.ernet.in     till July 10

(My new e-mail address will be known in September. 
Meanwhile if necessary, contact my friend had at pdas.cz)






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jun 26 00:32:05 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 20:32:05 -0400
Subject: One last plea re. Accent
Message-ID: <161227031221.23782.8681329958009692802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Johannes Bronkhorst has discussed the related passages in the Satapatha Br
(1,6,3,10) and TS (2.5.2.1-2), and MS (2.4.3) in his article "Panini and
the Veda Reconsidered" in Paninian Studies, Professor S.D. Joshi
Felicitation Volume, edited by Madhav Deshpande and Saroja Bhate, Center
for South and Southeast Asian Studies, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor,
1991, pp 77-78.
	Madhav Deshpande 

On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, JR Gardner wrote:

> I realize I'm bordering on spam, but the riddle of accent and meaning
> draws me deeper and like a gambler with a "sure bet"-- I'm hooked now that
> I've invested so much time.
> 
> First, many thanks to Peter Wyzlic, Ashok Aklujkar, Michael Witzel, 
> Avinash Sathaye, and George Thompson for their help.
> 
> Following their leads, I'm looking for a reference Peter kindly
> passed on, related to the du.s.ta.h 'sabda.h..." passage in Patan~jali's 
> MahaabhaaSya, beginning with "mantro hiina.h...", which he indicates  is
> to be found in the Paa.niniiya'sik.saa (karika 52 or so--I cannot locate 
> this resource in sufficient time here in Iowa). Reputedly, its
> origin has been traced in the 'Satapathabraahma.na.  I would be interested
> in teh citation of this passage, the relevant text itself, and ANY related
> citations of it in other literature as my efforts in the
> VaidikapadaanukramakoSa have been fruitless--or too ambiguous--with  the
> info at hand.
> 
> With promises to both repay all favor debts, and be dutifully silent for
> at least a month or so after completing this portion of my research-- With
> respectful thanks as well,
> 
> jrg
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John Robert Gardner      Obermann Center
> School of Religion         for Advanced Studies
> University of Iowa       University of Iowa
> 319-335-2164             319-335-4034
> http://vedavid.org	 http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other 
> than that of which it is the transformation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From torella at axrma.uniroma1.it  Wed Jun 25 23:42:44 1997
From: torella at axrma.uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 00:42:44 +0100
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031220.23782.8931957035146598147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a very good Italian translation of the Gitagovinda by Giuliano
Boccali, Milano, Adelphi, 1982.

Regards,
Raffaele Torella

Raffaele Torella
Dipartimento di Studi Orientali
Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza"







From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 26 12:22:58 1997
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 05:22:58 -0700
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031225.23782.12895559150464291499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Pranaam,
     
I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient 
India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana 
Samahita in Sanskrit. I am looking for more information on this 
subject. Can someone throw light on any Sanskrit literature (or 
English Translations of any Sanskrit treatise) in this area of 
study.

I hear that in the year 1911, a device based on this oral tradition was 
constructed and was flown at Mumbai Chowpatty in the presence of many 
people, including Lokmanya Tilak. This was reported in the Tarun Bharat 
Newspaper.

Could the legend of the Pushpak Vimana mentioned in the Ramayana be 
based on some factual device made
and  used in ancient India?

Subham~astu

Sudheer



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch  Thu Jun 26 07:43:41 1997
From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch (Francois Obrist)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 07:43:41 +0000
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031223.23782.15017837551804886597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On peut encore citer les traductions suivantes :

Le Gita-Govinda et le Ritou Sanhara, traduits...par H. Fauche. - Paris, 1850.

Gita Govinda. Les amours de Krishna. Version francaise de Francois Di Dio,
Parvati Gosh, Nicole Menant. - Paris, 1957.

Gita-Govinda / pref. et trad. par Jean Varenne. - Monaco, 1991. - Collection
Unesco d'oeuvres representatives. Serie indienne.

L'ode au divin vacher / trad. par Dominique Wohlschlag. - Lausanne, 1991.

Bonne journee, bonne nuit
                                Francois

                            



At 14:37 25.06.97 BST, you wrote:
>In the course of my own reading of Jayadeva's Gitagovinda I found it very
>interesting to follow translations (I have Keyt's, Miller's, Gurudas
>Mukhopadhyay's - which is rather indebted to the two earlier ones;
>ofcourse I know of William Jones' one) how they often depart from the
>original, leaving out unclear passages or just saying something else. I
>sort of got the wish to collect as many translations of this work as
>possible into English and would be interested to know about translations
>into other non-Indian languages as well.   Any reference much welcome.
>
>    Thanks
>
>
>Jakub Cejka
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>jakub at unipune.ernet.in     till July 10
>
>(My new e-mail address will be known in September. 
>Meanwhile if necessary, contact my friend had at pdas.cz)
>
>
>
>
Francois Obrist
Section de langues et civilisations orientales
Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne
CH-1015 Lausanne
e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Thu Jun 26 16:26:42 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 10:26:42 -0600
Subject: Indus culture, Durga and Cilappatikaaram
Message-ID: <161227031227.23782.16246651617007466956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


6/26/97

   Re: Indus Culture, Durga, and CilappatikAram
   --------------------------------------------

In the Western ghats, in between Palghat and Coimbatore,
there is a deer called as "kELai aaDu". It is small - may be 3 feet high.
I always wondered why it is called a "goat"!. Is it the same as 
markhor goat, referred to in Parpola's book??!

Could the contemporary Tamil word "kELai" be a corruption of
"kalai" of ancient Tamil?!

What Does P. L. Samy, IAS say in his books on "kalai"?
He looked at Tamil literature with a biologist's eye
and wrote many new, interesting stuff.

N. Ganesan

PS:
Just now, spent a month in that region, Western Kongu.

***************************************************************************

Dr. S. Palaniappan's original posting:

Since then, I have discovered some very interesting findings. Stag appears
accompanying a goddess in the coins of the KuniNDa tribe (2nd century CE?).
While earlier scholars have identified the goddess with Zri, because of the
presence of lotus and the representation of Zri/Lakshmi as a golden antelope,
I think it is more probable that the goddess in question is DurgA. For one
thing, lotus is not exclusively associated with Lakshmi alone. Moreover,
there are two Indus seals shown in the Deciphering the Indus Script by Asko
Parpola, Fig.14.35, and especially Fig. 7.13 seem to be stags. The twisting
horns on the seals seem to echo the description, 'tiritaru kOTTuk kalai'
(stag (?) with twisting/turning horns). Now in Old Tamil the word 'kalai' is
used to refer to the stag and male monkey. I do not know what other species
of animals 'kalai' refered to earlier if the animal in the seal is not a
stag.  According to Asko Parpola, the animal is a markhor goat (Sanskrit
 'zarabha') mentioned in kAlikApurANa as a sacrificial animal. But in
CilappatikAram, 'kalai' is a vehicle and not a sacrificial animal. 

In the Goddess worship ritual described in  CilappatikAram, the priestess is
made to sit on the 'kalai' and brought in front of the Goddess who rides
'kalai'. After that, the priestess worships the Goddess. There is no mention
of the priestess sacrificing the 'kalai'.  So, apparently it stood beside the
priestess which is in agreement with the Indus seals.

It looks like 'kalai', stag or markhor goat was the original vehicle for
DurgA. The lion probably is a later innovation. If this is confirmed, then
CilappatikAram seems to be the only text describing the sacrificial ritual
related to koRRavai/DurgA accurately in the manner implied by the Indus
seals. I would appreciate any comments from archaelogists, art historians,
numismatists, tantrists, etc.

Regards

S. Palaniappan  

****************************************************************************






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Thu Jun 26 17:16:00 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 11:16:00 -0600
Subject: Ekaakshara, Dvyarttha works (Tamil)
Message-ID: <161227031231.23782.6392316350035274440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


     Ekaakshara, Dvyarttha Works
   ******************************

Sreenivas wrote of citrakaavyas in Telugu.

Raghava Paandaveeyam has been rendered into Tamil by
Rasipuram Maarayya Achari early in this century.
The songs have a nice flow. Unfortunately, only 
first half has been printed.

In Tamil, the work has been named "iraviica marapinar kaathai".
Even the title exhibits two meanings.

iraviicar = iravu + iicar = Lord of the night, Chandran.
In this mode, it talks of Mahabharatham, the story of the
descendents of Chandra.

iraviicar = iravi + iicar = Lord Ravi, Suuryan.
Here, it means RaamaayaNam, because Raaman is Ravi kula tilakan.

There are many catakams, antaatis, etc with ekaaksharams, yamakam,
tiribu alankaarams. Also, many ashTa naagabandham, rathabandham etc.
But these chitra kavis are so rigid, formulaic, need commentary
to understand and devoid of poetical beauties.

There is a good niroTTaka(ithazhakal) antaati on Tiruchenduur
by Turaimankalam Civappirakaacar. (17th century). It is made up of
letters which do not need the lips to touch at all.
But it is an exception.

Duing the period of Vijayanagar, these Chitrakavis gained
patronage under Vijayanagar Nayaks. These letter/word plays
coupled with excessive eroticism is a mark of the Nayak period literature.
Heavy decline when compared to Sangam classics, KuRaL, Cilappatikaaram
or Kamban.

Modern Tamil literature has to be resurrected by
Bharatiyar or little earlier, Ramalinga Samy.

N. Ganesan






From pnelson at estud.colmex.mx  Thu Jun 26 12:39:42 1997
From: pnelson at estud.colmex.mx (Patricio Nelson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 12:39:42 +0000
Subject: Help with a verse
Message-ID: <161227031237.23782.3426079652482559899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists;

         I?m sorry if this message is repeated. I sent it yesterday 
and it was automatically  returned because of some problem with my address..

          Anyhow, I am working on the Laghu Tanka. This is a 19th century 
Sanskrit text written by a pandit from Bhopal, Central India, who Lancelot 
Wilkinson called Soobaji Bapoo. The Laghu Tanka is a response to the 
Vajrasuci, a Buddhist criticism of the brahminical caste system. My 
question comes from the end of the Laghu Tanka where the text makes the 
following reference:

itishrii hariharadvaya sushlokacaranaadi ghatitasuvarnaadinaamnaa samasta 
brahmanvidvanmandalii shisyena viracitovajrasuuciilaghutamkah 
samaapta

Here seems to be the name of the author and something else which is 
coded into the text. Does anybody know what is going on? I believe it 
is a reference to verses from another text. Do you know which text? 
I?ve also thought of another possiblility. There are 
some other verses which refer to Harihara that are mentioned shortly 
before this: 

atah sarvasaukyavyaartham bhagavad aashisamaashaasmahe
subhadraashiih pradau ramyaavyaalaam shukaviraajitau
jitakaamau hariharau baanadoshchinnakadripuu
puurnaanamdaikacidruupau vashavartijagattrayau
dadyaataamsharmavonashca tirohitaprthagbhramau

Maybe the previous reference has to do with a way of reading these 
verses. Maybe you have another suggestion?

                Thank you for any help you can offer me on this. 

Patricio Nelson
CEAA
El Colegio de M?xico






From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA  Thu Jun 26 17:18:42 1997
From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 13:18:42 -0400
Subject: CFP: "Psychologizing Hindus"
Message-ID: <161227031235.23782.6123377630194935078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




				     Announcement and Call for Papers


A special issue of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, planned for
April 1999, entitled "Psychologizing Hindus" will review, explore, and
reinterpret the ways "Western" psychology has interpreted Hindus and
Hinduism and make new proposals.  

Possible topics might include the uses that Western psychological theory
(primarily personality and psychodynamic theory)  has been used
(unmodified or adapted) for various purposes in South Asia (psychotherapy
is one interesting issue here), and the ways that that theory has affected
self-images and the adaptions to modernization of some classes of South
Asian individuals, and how that theory relates to wider Western attitudes
and ideologies concerning South Asia.

Contributions submitted for this special issue will be evaluated through
the usual _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ peer reviews. 
Manuscripts, including notes, should not exceed 40 pages in length. Please
submit four copies. All submitted work should be double-spaced, including
extracts, notes, and references. Footnotes should be as few as possible,
and typed double-spaced at the end of the text.  Documentation should
follow the style recommended in sections 16.3 through 16.28 of the
_Chicago Manual of Style_, 14 ed. Authors are encouraged to submit tables,
figures, maps, photographs, and other illustrations along with their
manuscripts; please consult the editor for specifications.  Additional
guidelines on manuscript preparation will be sent upon request.

The deadline for submission is July 1998. Completed manuscripts,
inquiries about material for possible publication, and correspondence to
the editor should be send to the Journal's editorial offices: 

	Sushil Mittal, editor
	_International Journal of Hindu Studies_
	International Institute of India Studies  
	1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe
	Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2
	
	Tel (514) 771 0213 FAX (514) 771 2776
	Email: <mittals at magellan.umontreal.ca>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full details on _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on
the Journal homepage at: <http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/>. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Upcoming Special Issues of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_:

An issue on "How the study of Hinduism might contribute in larger ways to
the study of religion" with articles by Douglas Brooks, Alf Hiltebeitel,
Barbara Holdredge, Gerald J. Larson, Anantanand Rambachan, and Brian K.
Smith, and with an introduction by Wendy Doniger. 

A symposium on "Robert I. Levy's _Mesocosm: Hinduism and the organization
of a traditional Hindu city in Nepal_" with articles by David Gellner,
Michael H. Jameson, Steven Parish, Declan Quigley, and Michael Witzel, and
with a reply by Robert I. Levy.  

An issue on "How Islam in its relation to South Asia has represented, over
time, its distinct other, the 'Hindu' and, in turn, how these
representations have shaped the sense of both Hindu and Islamic identity
and interaction" with articles by Ali Asani, C. N. Naim, Peter Gaeffke,... 
[contributors not yet finalized...]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------













From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Thu Jun 26 21:15:49 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 15:15:49 -0600
Subject: Navagraha worship
Message-ID: <161227031239.23782.1978479419808121940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



5/26/97

       Navagraha Worship In South India
      **********************************

J. McKim Malville is interested in the evolution of
planet worship in South India. He teaches somewhere in
Colorado. I glanced thru' his paper once.
He says the important Chola temple at Suuriyanaar Koyil,
Thanjavur temple was built in 11th century after a major
astronomical event over India. (eclipse)

J. McKim Malville, Solar astronomy and temple traditions,
Jl. of the Indian anthropological society, March 1988,
vol. 23, no. 1, p. 17-
I am sure he has few more writeups.

Suuriyanaar Koyil used to be an important
Saiva Siddhanta Adheenam. Thiruveezhimizhalai
Sivagrayogin was a preceptor of the math
who wrote extensively in Tamil and Sanskrit.

I recollect C. Sivaramamurti's writings from one his large books.
It goes something like this:
Rajaraja Chola I marries his daughter to Vimaladitya Chalukya I
of Vengi country in Andhra. Due to her, a big Surya 
temple came to be erectedin Andhra. Later, a descendent of that
Chola Princess (Kundhavai Naachiyaar) builds Konarak Sun temple
in Kalinga country. Chozha becomes ChoDa in the north.
ChoDaganga Deva is the King's name.

Longtime ago, Deborah Karumuthu Thiagarajan was interested in this field.
Nowadays, she is busy saving Chettinad homes, crafts, artisans.
See:
D. Thiagarajan, The development of Surya imagery in the Tamil
country in the seventh-twelfth centuries AD.
1985, 133 leaves.
Microfiche 288, Van Pelt library, Univ. of Pennsylvania

I am sure Dr. Martin Gantsen knows this book:
Stephen Markel, Origins of the Indian planetary deities,
Lewiston, NY: E. Melen, 1995
(from a PhD at UMich)

I agree with Mr. Jayabarathi that there are many
publications in Tamil. Many are devotional, stalapuranams,
or astrological or uncritical. But a few exceptions
do exist.

There is a medieval "Sani Bhagavan Tottiram" (stotram)
reprinted for atleast 150 years. Good poetry.

K. V. Jagannathan, editor of Kalaimakal
and disciple of U. V. Saminathaiyar, has
a book giving an overview of Navagraha worship
from Tamil and Sanskrit literatures.
Printed by Alliance Publications, Mylapore.

There are many Tamil books, few of them running into 1000s of
poems/viruttams like kiiranuur naTaraajar's caatakaalangaaram
and kumaaracuvaamiiyam by Viiravanallur Kumaracaami Tecikar,
on astrology. The relationships between this genre of astrological
literature in Tamil and Sanskrit has never been explored so far.

N. Ganesan
nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov












From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu  Fri Jun 27 02:06:54 1997
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 16:06:54 -1000
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031259.23782.4933200463654390342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



> >>>> I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient
> >>>> India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana
> >>>> Samahita in Sanskrit.
> >>>
> >>> This text was printed, but there are no manuscripts of the work and it
> >>> must therefore be a fabrication. . . .
> >>
> >>Permit me to assert that the unavailability of evidence is no proof of the
> >>invalidity of what is being claimed, proposed or investigated.
> >
> >Of course! Brilliant! Just because there's no evidence that
> >your grandmother can fly, does not *prove* that she's not
> >an airplane! So *that* is the logical foundation of those


Just a point about logic...

The claim that "there are no manuscripts of the
work and it must therefore be a fabrication"
is not, by itself, logically valid.

E.g., the claim that "there are no photographs of
your great-grandmother and she must therefore not
have existed" is not, by itself, logically valid.  :-)

Take it easy,


Narayan Sriranga Raja.

PS:  This doesn't mean I'm defending the genuineness
     of the "Brihat Vimana Samhita".  Just pointing
     out flawed logic.






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 26 23:10:37 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 16:10:37 -0700
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031250.23782.1876020222023404497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!"

In order to prevent members of the Indology List from getting bored,
we have nice jokes and fairy tales posted from time to time.

The latest to this addition of side splitting jokes is about 
"Aeronautics". I am not sure about Aeronautics and Atom Bombs( why else 
would Oppenheimer quote  from the Geeta when the atomic bomb was 
exploded, eh!). I can only suggest the author read the following
texts: 1. Hindu America, by Dewan Chaman Lal....he proves that the
Maya pyramids are copied from the Hindu Gopuram,Indian American ethnic 
jewellery is copied from Shivas Rudraaksha. If it weren't for the title, 
one would think that he was reading Narsimhavarmans "mattavilAsa", which 
talks about the fanciful flights of imagination when inebriated. 2. 
Sanskrit is derived from Arabic- Mohammed Mazhar
....This gentleman advances the arguement that Allah reveale dthe Quran 
to Mohammed in Arabic, so every language derives from Arabic; therefore 
Sanskrit is derived from Arabic. Even the combined wits of
the Grimm brothers and Hans Christian Andersen cannot conjure  such a 
fantasy....for sheer flights of imagination, he beats even Arthur 
Rimbaud, whose poetry is supposed to be *halycon and dreamlike*
....The difference is Rimbaud attempts poetry, Sheikh Mazhar attempts 
linguistics.

The author who is interested in aeronautics can further the case of 
"Intellectual Bharateeya KKKism" by reading the above books.

It would help to nip these jingoistic ideas in the bud, for if 
"given an inch, they will take a mile". As Hafez advises
"Dam the stream in the begining and all you need is a twig
allow the strean to flow and it sweeps elephants away near its mouth"


To even think that people can take credit for every invention under the 
sun is reprehensible and narrow minded. Having witnessed the havoc 
caused by "The White Mans Burden", one doesn't have to experience the 
"Brown Mans Burden". Reading such tomes itself is an eyesore and 
burdensome to both brain and heart. to paraphrase Bhandarkar,"one musn't 
look for steam engines in the Vedas". Ancient Indians have done lots of 
creditable things, but neural networks, VLSI CAD and CD players weren't 
part of the "Achievements".


Let us join Messrs Thillaud and Wujatsyk in laying a wreath on the
latest set of jingoistic ideas. May I appeal to senior members to help
shut out such stuff? I am sorry for this rant, but temporary discomfort 
is preferable to permanent ignorance. Let us therefore
bid adieu to such ideas before they misuse hospitality to the extent 
that we would have to be hospitalised.

Krishna



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From thillaud at unice.fr  Thu Jun 26 14:40:15 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 16:40:15 +0200
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031233.23782.13783882896351084713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 14:31 +0200 26/06/97, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>Pranaam,
>
>I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient
>India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana
>Samahita in Sanskrit. I am looking for more information on this
>subject. Can someone throw light on any Sanskrit literature (or
>English Translations of any Sanskrit treatise) in this area of
>study.
>
>I hear that in the year 1911, a device based on this oral tradition was
>constructed and was flown at Mumbai Chowpatty in the presence of many
>people, including Lokmanya Tilak. This was reported in the Tarun Bharat
>Newspaper.
>
>Could the legend of the Pushpak Vimana mentioned in the Ramayana be
>based on some factual device made
>and  used in ancient India?
>
>Subham~astu
>
>Sudheer

	Dear Sudheer,

	Once again ?
	I suppose
	next months: vedic atomic bomb, vedic microsurgery, vedic big bang,
vedic telecommunication satellites, vedic AIDS treatment and so ...
	I'm not sure all this is in the scope of the list. Each time, you
provoke a meaningless debate.
	I'm sure the answers you'll have here will not be cited in your
book. Why ask you ?

	First I believed you was young and foolishly idealist, yet I
believe you are dangerous. Please, write your nationalistic book with
nationalistic sources, find a nationalistic editor, a nationalistic public
and I hope you obtain a lot of money to buy a Vimana Task Force and to kill
all barbarian foreigners in 'Bharat' with your Vajra Super Weapons: I'm not
very much afraid.

	And remember: after Yudhisthira was lying, his vimana touch the earth!

Dominique

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From Jyotishi at aol.com  Thu Jun 26 20:51:23 1997
From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 16:51:23 -0400
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031241.23782.11884970216494516568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

in message <Pine.A32.3.95.970626171118.58337E-100000 at link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> ,
ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>> I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient 
>> India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana 
>> Samahita in Sanskrit. 
>
> This text was printed, but there are no manuscripts of the work and it
> must therefore be a fabrication. . . .

Permit me to assert that the unavailability of evidence is no proof of the
invalidity of what is being claimed, proposed or investigated.

Jyotishi
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti






From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Jun 26 16:13:57 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 17:13:57 +0100
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031229.23782.965643902096004829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, sudheer birodkar wrote:

> I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient 
> India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana 
> Samahita in Sanskrit. 

This text was printed, but there are no manuscripts of the work and it
must therefore be a fabrication.  References to flying in ancient works
(not only Sanskrit) are delightful, and to be taken in the spirit in which
they were undoubtedly written, as flights of fancy rather than flights of
aeroplane.  There is an identifiable genre of science fiction within
Sanskrit literature.  I'm not aware of much writing on it, but it
certainly exists.  Raghavan wrote on it a bit.

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 27 00:37:22 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 17:37:22 -0700
Subject: Navagraha worship
Message-ID: <161227031252.23782.8869038404780695038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





N.Ganesan writes:
>      
>I recollect C. Sivaramamurti's writings from one his large books.
>It goes something like this:
>Rajaraja Chola I marries his daughter to Vimaladitya Chalukya I
>of Vengi country in Andhra. Due to her, a big Surya 
>temple came to be erectedin Andhra. Later, a descendent of that
            ------------------------


Are you refering to the temple in Arasavilli in the Srikakulam district?
If so, I am not sure if this temple can be classified as "big"..
there was a local governor during Aurangazebs time who systematically 
had every temple demolished....so the temple was mde *low-profile* 
then....of course, all this is true if and only if we are refering to 
the same thing.

I suppose one can also add MuttusvAmi dIkshitars "navagraha krtis"
to this list of astrology- related works from Tamil NAdu. While other
forms of worship required *mantra-initation*, this form of Krti singing 
requires none and can be sung by anybody who knows the lyric.
FRom what I remember from my reading and discussion, all the nine Grahas 
are represented i.e. have temples in the Tanjavur district.
The list is as follows:
(I've left blanks for temples that I cannot remember)

sUrya-   sUryanAr koil
chandra- tiruvArUr
angAraka- vaidIswaran koil
budha- ?
brhaspati-?
sukra- ?  
shani-?
rahu- tirunAgeswaram
ketu-? 

For some reason, it is only the Sun-god who is worshipped in other parts 
of India.....there are sun temples in Andhra, Orissa, Gujarat
and KAshmir from what I remember, but no temples to any of the other
planets except for Mandapalli( Andhra Pradesh) and a Chandra temple
in Himachal Pradesh( the name of the town slips my mind now)


Krishna

Krishna

Krishna


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From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in  Thu Jun 26 12:52:12 1997
From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 17:52:12 +0500
Subject: EkAkshara and other ingenious forms of poetry
Message-ID: <161227031328.23782.2314031709446695603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


The word `chitra' in chitra-kavitva means `intriguing' or `rousing
one's curiosity' and not only `picture'. But bandhakavita has picturesque
feats also like chakrabandha, khadgabandha, nagabandha etc. In these
feats the letters of the poem can be cast in the picture of a wheel, 
the picture of a sword, the picture of a serpent etc.
 
In Telugu "PrabandharAja VEnkatEswara VijayavilAsam" by Ganapavarapu
VEnkaTa kavi published by Telugu University, Hyderabad (originally by 
A.P. Sahitya Academy) edited by VEdam VEnkatarAya SAstri ( grandson of
the more famous namesake) is completely devoted to such feats. It 
contains many feats of prosady (garbhakavita); EkAkshara, dvyakshara,
...., Ekapada, dvipada,..., slesha poems, (chitrakavita) and  various 
picturesque bandhAs like those mentioned above (bandhakavita). In one
single sIsa (a meter) poem, 60 poems of various other meters are 
embedded. At the same time the book has also a story going. This is 
something like bhattikAvya which is meant to demonstrate vyAkarana
sUtrAs of PaNini at the same time narrating RAmAyanA.
 
Sarma.







From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Jun 26 22:10:05 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 18:10:05 -0400
Subject: 'muzavu' in TiruvArur temple
Message-ID: <161227031244.23782.14044599531074480994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A few years ago, someone told me of a huge muzavu (drum) in the TiruvArur
temple. I do not recollect the details. Apparently, it is so big that it is
either sunk into the ground or has a ladder to climb on for playing. Also,
the only person who knows how to play that is in his 80s and after him the
knowledge of playing may be gone. Does anybody in the list have factual
details? R. Ghose does not talk about this in her book. (I am not talking
about the panca-mukha drum.) Thanks in advance.

Regards

S. Palaniappan





From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 27 04:38:41 1997
From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 21:38:41 -0700
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031263.23782.4436770413813114975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Dominique,

I am both amused and bemused by your reply. 

I have no desire to start any debate. My only desire in sending that 
mail on Vimana Shastra was to examine if at all there is any proof of 
the existence of such devices in ancient times in all cultures. And as I 
happen to be an Indian, I am more familiar with Indian History.Hence the 
query in the context of India.

But that does not make me any less a connoisseur of say French History. 
Had I been French, I would have done the same with French history as 
then I would have been more familiar with french History without any 
bias against anyone.

Though this is not the subject of the present mail, I should mention 
here that I have also keenly studied French History of the period of the 
revolution till Napoleon, and as a student, was for quite some time 
under the spell of Rousseau's "Social Contract" and Voltaire's Lettres 
Philosophiques and Candide. To get a better feel of French history, I 
had also learnt French for two years. Although it has been many years 
since my dalliance with French history, it did make me a francophile of 
sorts for some time. 

You seem to have mistaken my query about the Vimana Shastra as a threat 
to non-Indians with some device Indians had and they could resurrect to 
destroy "enemies. Far from the point.

I consider myself to be as much French, "Mon Ami" as any other, As much 
British, or American, Chinese, Russian - for that matter.

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam "The World is my Family" is what any sensible 
individual will believe in - I certainly do and hope so do you.

Hope this mail clears any misunderstanding that my mail seems to have 
created in your mind.

Au Revoir

Sudheer
_____________

Sudheer Birodkar,
Mumbai (Bombay) 400 063. 
INDIA. Tel: +91-22-8733827.

Asatoma_Sad_Gamaya, 
Tamasoma_Jyotir_Gamaya.

Lead me from falsehoods to Truth,
And from Ignorance to Enlightenment.


>From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 11:16:25 1997
>Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by 
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>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:35:22 BST
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
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>Precedence: bulk
>From: "Dominique.Thillaud" <thillaud at unice.fr>
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
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>In-Reply-To: <199706261222.FAA01408 at f61.hotmail.com>
>
>At 14:31 +0200 26/06/97, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>>Pranaam,
>>
>>I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient
>>India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana
>>Samahita in Sanskrit. I am looking for more information on this
>>subject. Can someone throw light on any Sanskrit literature (or
>>English Translations of any Sanskrit treatise) in this area of
>>study.
>>
>>I hear that in the year 1911, a device based on this oral tradition 
was
>>constructed and was flown at Mumbai Chowpatty in the presence of many
>>people, including Lokmanya Tilak. This was reported in the Tarun 
Bharat
>>Newspaper.
>>
>>Could the legend of the Pushpak Vimana mentioned in the Ramayana be
>>based on some factual device made
>>and  used in ancient India?
>>
>>Subham~astu
>>
>>Sudheer
>
>	Dear Sudheer,
>
>	Once again ?
>	I suppose
>	next months: vedic atomic bomb, vedic microsurgery, vedic big bang,
>vedic telecommunication satellites, vedic AIDS treatment and so ...
>	I'm not sure all this is in the scope of the list. Each time, you
>provoke a meaningless debate.
>	I'm sure the answers you'll have here will not be cited in your
>book. Why ask you ?
>
>	First I believed you was young and foolishly idealist, yet I
>believe you are dangerous. Please, write your nationalistic book with
>nationalistic sources, find a nationalistic editor, a nationalistic 
public
>and I hope you obtain a lot of money to buy a Vimana Task Force and to 
kill
>all barbarian foreigners in 'Bharat' with your Vajra Super Weapons: I'm 
not
>very much afraid.
>
>	And remember: after Yudhisthira was lying, his vimana touch the earth!
>
>Dominique
>
>Dominique THILLAUD
>Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France
>
>
>





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From Jyotishi at aol.com  Fri Jun 27 01:51:59 1997
From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 21:51:59 -0400
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031257.23782.17656655669004946168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> Permit me to assert that the unavailability of evidence is no proof of the
>> invalidity of what is being claimed, proposed or investigated.
 
> Of course! Brilliant! Just because there's no evidence that
> your grandmother can fly, does not *prove* that she's not
> an airplane! So *that* is the logical foundation of those
> theories, hunh?! Why didn't say so before? Eat your heart
> out, Karl Popper!

When certain people cannot defend their point of view, which they seem to
want to do with their egos, they begin spewing ridicule, insults and
defamation.  They are the  enemies of whatever subject they happen to touch
and of whichever group they choose to infect.  But such minor obstacles are
overcome easily in the quest for knowledge.

Jyotishi
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti






From Jyotishi at aol.com  Fri Jun 27 04:00:23 1997
From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 00:00:23 -0400
Subject: Vedic Civilization in Ancient Turkey
Message-ID: <161227031261.23782.14179960801661686946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaskaar!

Excerpts from
Global Dharm News Digest
HINDUISM TODAY, April 1993

   "A 1992 Motilal Banarsidass newsletter reports that the oldest known
civilization yet recently discovered at Nevali Cori in Turkey has close
similarities with the Rg Vedic civilization, according to Dr. B. G. Sidharth,
Director General of the Hyderabad-based B. M. Birla Science Center.
   "Dr. Sidharth, who recently visited the excavation site near Ataturk Dam,
gave a report to the United News of India that the Nevali Cori people could
be dated back as far as 7,000 BCE, when the earth was in the last phase of
the great ice age.  While others were primitive nomads, the Nevali Cori
people were domestic, used lamps and played a dice game.  Excavations showed
definite "Sanskritic" influence which could be traced to 2,000 BCE --
inscriptions with names of Vedic Deities, such as Indra, Mitra, Varuna and
Dasaratha, and horse-racing terms.
   "A major find in the excavation was a large head sculpted from limestone
with features identical to that of an Indian Vedic priest.  The head was
clean shaven and had the characteristic tuft of hair, an ancient Vedic custom
and common to this day in India."
   [End of excerpts from HINDUISM TODAY, April 1993]

Jyotishi
More than 17,000 links to posts by yours truly can be found at:
  http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti






From bpj at netg.se  Thu Jun 26 22:00:25 1997
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 00:00:25 +0200
Subject: Dome in Mosque Architecture originated in India before Islam
Message-ID: <161227031243.23782.1275426832849819050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:36 25.6.1997, Michael Rabe wrote:
>Dear Sudheer,
>
>I'd intended to reply earlier, but this second posting is an invitation to
>rifle something off the top, rather than tracking down the necessary
>citations:
>
>Basically, I think you are mistaken in your belief that architectural
>vaulting that incorporates the _true arch_ or dome was known in India prior
>to  the Islamic period!
>
>The much early Buddhist stupas were solid core mounds of brick, later
>dressed with stone revetments: they did not make use of voussoirs, or
>wedge-shaped blocks that distribute weight along a curvilinear arch.

Isn't the Pantheon at Rome the eldest example of this?  IIRC it is held
that many now lost Roman buildings had domes.

BPJ







From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be  Thu Jun 26 22:48:36 1997
From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 00:48:36 +0200
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031246.23782.16268552985346480436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>in message <Pine.A32.3.95.970626171118.58337E-100000 at link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> ,
>ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>>> I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient
>>> India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana
>>> Samahita in Sanskrit.
>>
>> This text was printed, but there are no manuscripts of the work and it
>> must therefore be a fabrication. . . .
>
>Permit me to assert that the unavailability of evidence is no proof of the
>invalidity of what is being claimed, proposed or investigated.

Of course! Brilliant! Just because there's no evidence that
your grandmother can fly, does not *prove* that she's not
an airplane! So *that* is the logical foundation of those
theories, hunh?! Why didn't say so before? Eat your heart
out, Karl Popper!







From thillaud at unice.fr  Fri Jun 27 00:53:31 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 02:53:31 +0200
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031254.23782.16630027538298288740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 0:53 +0200 27/06/97, Jacob Baltuch wrote:
>>in message <Pine.A32.3.95.970626171118.58337E-100000 at link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> ,
>>ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, sudheer birodkar wrote:
>>>> I am looking for information on aeronautics in ancient
>>>> India. I am told that there is a book called Brihat Vimana
>>>> Samahita in Sanskrit.
>>>
>>> This text was printed, but there are no manuscripts of the work and it
>>> must therefore be a fabrication. . . .
>>
>>Permit me to assert that the unavailability of evidence is no proof of the
>>invalidity of what is being claimed, proposed or investigated.
>
>Of course! Brilliant! Just because there's no evidence that
>your grandmother can fly, does not *prove* that she's not
>an airplane! So *that* is the logical foundation of those
>theories, hunh?! Why didn't say so before? Eat your heart
>out, Karl Popper!

	My grandmother was all things for me,
	Hence she was an airplane,
	With the white smoke of his hair,
	With the roaring of his reprimands
	When I was young.
	Now she's broken down, now she's flying in my heart.

(but without any vimana ...),
Dominique


Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From mrabe at artic.edu  Fri Jun 27 14:11:37 1997
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 09:11:37 -0500
Subject: Dome in Mosque Architecture originated in India before Islam
Message-ID: <161227031281.23782.13728776454215454169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


In reponse to Philip Jonsson's post of Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:05:24 BST:

>Isn't the Pantheon at Rome the eldest example of this?  IIRC it is held
>that many now lost Roman buildings had domes.
>
>BPJ

The Ancient Eyptians knew the arch and used it for barrel-vaulting of
warehouses, etc.--never for their more formal capital-A Architectural
monuments. Likewise, the Greeks also preferred to use only a very formal
_post & lintel_ contruction for their major civic and religious edifies.

The oldest truly famous arch that survives (from the Babylon of
Nebuchadnezzar) is the Ishtar Gate, c. 575 B.C.E., reconstructed in the
Pergamon Museum, Berlin. Interestingly, with respect to regional
continuities--its glazed brick were predominately a dark cobalt
blue--anticipating the tile-work of the much later Islamic monuments we
know so well (for example) from news photos of Saddam Hussein's assault on
the Shiia resistance at Kerbala in 1991.

The Pantheon (118-125 CE) is certainly the best preserved Roman dome, but
the opened-form (with an occulus sky light) had proven antecedents in
bath-house construction: the better to retain or vent sauna-like vapors.

MRabe







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 27 16:13:25 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 09:13:25 -0700
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031285.23782.1700675645257530624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





>REPLY TO S Krishna follows:
>
>On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:
>
> Among Indian authoresses who have attempted to take a look at the 
"Gita  
>Govinda", we have Kapila Vatsyayan and Monika Verma. A perusal of 
Kapila  
>Vatsyayanas works would be interesting in that it compares Bundi and  
>Mewari Versions of the Gita Govinda. 
>Do you mean it compares the text of the mss?  I saw one of those books 
>and got the impression it was a study of the illustrations of the ms 
and 
>not its text, nor was it a translation. If I am mistaken, please let me 
>know!

Krishna uvAca:
You are correct( as always:-))






>
>>Krishna writes:
>
> I also have a question for people who are interested in the Gita 
> Govinda:
>
> Jayadeva is variously depicted as having been a native of Orissa
> and Bengal( since there is a village called Kendubilva , the village  
>where Jayadeva lived in both states) or of KErala, since there is a  
>popular style of singing in Kerala called "sOpAnageetham" which 
utilises  
>Jayadevas Ashtapadis. My question is:
> Has this question been satisfactorily resolved ? Is it now known for   
>sure as to which place he belonged to?
>
>Jakub Cejka says:
>>I am not aware about any substantial new material on this issue. 
>>Barbara Stoler Miller in the intro to her version of GG  (Love Song 
>of 
>the Dark Lord) from the seventies gave a brief account of the >opinions 
>on Jayadeva's birth-place. Earlier publication (reprinted >several 
times 
>by Sahitya Academy) "Jayadeva" by, I think, S.K. >Chatterjee (?) might 
>be more detailed. It is written by a Bengali, so >you know the 
>conclusion :-) I should add that also Maithilis claimed >he was from 
>Mithila. The village in Bengal, where there is a >"Joydebmela" 
>(Jayadeva-mela) held annually is in Birbhum district and >is nowadays 
>called Kenduli.  Both Orias and Bengalis will always hold >he was from 
>their part of the eastern land. I think Kerala does not >come in 
>question.  Take for example the fact, that Jayadeva >pronounced vocalic 
>R as "ri" (evidenced together with
------------------------------------
non-distinction of sibilants in his otherwise always perfect rhymes).
>> In Bengal (Mithila) it is and in Orissa it was pronounced so.
>

 This is a most interesting point!!!! This would then make one conclude 
that Jayadeva was indeed from Bengal, because  as of today,the letter 
"R" is pronounced as "ri" only in Bengal. In Orissa, it is more often 
than not pronounced as "ru"( I can vouch for the fact that 3 different 
Oriya speaking teachers that I had in high school always pronounced my 
name as "Krushna" instead of "Krishna"). From what I know, R is 
pronounced as "Ru"( with the exception of words like Krishna or Rishi)in 
Gujarat, Maharashtra, the 4 southern states and Orissa. However, I am 
not sure of how this was during Jayadevas days. 
  On the other hand, IF present day pronounciation is no different from 
then and Jayadeva was from Bengal/Orissa, then he should have written 
his name as "Jayadeba".....do any of his works mention his name as 
"Jayadeba"? If one were to look into this Kerala theory, then
Jayadeva would come out as "Jayadeva".

>Jakub says:
>
> >  However I found it curious that GG is most popular in those 
>Eastern provinces and in Kerala  which is quite far away, while it is 
>not so popular in the regions in between (if I am not mistaken).
 ---------------------------------------------------



I know for a fact that in the Odissi style of dance, an Ashtapadi is 
always a must in any concert. Sanjukta Panigrahi, Kelucharan Mahapatra, 
Sonal Mansingh and other leading artistes rigidly adhere to this. In the 
south, an Ashtapadi is sung towards the end of a Karnatic music concert( 
this has nothing to do with Sopanageetham) with the difference that the 
Ragas in which it is sung is markedly different from what Dr Stoler 
Miller indicates in her transliteration. Similarly, even in Odissi 
dance, the Raga is markedly different from Dr Stoler Miller indicates.

Coming to think of Bengal, I find it strange that Jayadevas songs are 
seldom sung in Bengal other than the utsava that you refered to...even 
the Kirtans of Bengal donot make use of his lyrics....I therefore am not  
sure if his tradition is all that popular in Bengal on a day to day 
basis. Given the fact that I lived in Bengal for a very long time,
I find it very strange that the Bengalis( who are very culture concious 
and very musically oriented) make no use of his songs if he came from 
that part of India!

In conclusion, I think one should take the theory attempted by Raghava 
Menon and say that Jayadeva was a native of Puri but worked at the court 
of Laksmana dEva of Bengal...this is a neat way of satisfying both 
sides:-). This in a way parallels the controversy about Chopin
( was he French or Polish?). For those who derive immense satisfaction
from thinking that Indians did everything earlier than the rest of the 
world, this should be of immense satisfaction...that India had a 
Chopin-like controversy back in the 12th century while the Europeans had 
to wait until much later:-),:-),:-)

Regards,

Krishna




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Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Jun 27 09:46:30 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 10:46:30 +0100
Subject: The meta-study of "Aeronautics in Ancient India?"
Message-ID: <161227031265.23782.4844099339014851352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I was amazed to see all the messages about the Aeronautics topic in my
inbox this morning.  

As founder of this INDOLOGY discussion list, I should like to stop this
thread turning nasty (as it already shows signs of doing).  

If you wish to discuss this matter further, please restrict your comments
to the following indological topics:

 o  the locating and identifying of manuscripts and printed texts in
    Sanskrit (or Tamil, Persian, etc.) on this or related subjects; 
    Bhojaraaja's Samaraa"nga.nasuutradhaara (11 cent) is interesting in
    the context of the study of India's pre-modern technical traditions, 
    for example. 

    Please do not discuss these matters further before reading at least,
  author =          "V. Raghavan",
  title =           "{Yantras or mechanical contrivances in ancient 
                      India}",
  publisher =       "Indian Institute of Culture",
  year =            "1956",
  number =          "10",
  series =          "Transaction",
  address =         "Bangalore",
  edition =         "2nd ed., revised and enlarged"

and, if possible, the very interesting book

  author =          "Krishna Kanta Handiqui",
  title =           "{Ya"sastilaka and Indian Culture: Somadevas
                     Yas"sastilaka and aspects of Jainism and Indian
                     thought and culture in the tenth century}",
  publisher =       "{Jaina Sa.msk.rti Sa.mrakshaka Sangha}",
  year =            "1949",
  number =          "2",
  series =          "{Jiivaraaja Jaina Granthamaalaa}",
  address =         "Sholapur",
  note=             "Somadeva composed the Y. in AD 959.  He was a Jain
                   monk, and worked in the Ga"ngaadhara, in the area of
                   modern Dharwar District (perhaps modern Gangawati), 
                   N. Karnataka."


 o  the history of scientistic thinking amongst indologists;  i.e., the
    meta-history of aeronautics, atomic energy, etc.  This is a very
    interesting subject, and quite topical given some recent publications
    appearing in India's premiere history of science journal, IJHS.

 o  This is not the forum in which to discuss whether or not there were
    aeroplanes in India or elsewhere before the Wright brothers.  It is 
    taken as a given in serious indology that there were not.  If you
    think the indological establishment is wrong, write a convincing book
    arguing your case, and it might get discussed in this forum at a 
    later time.  

Anyone persistently raising the topic of the existence of advanced science
and technology in ancient india at the non-meta discussion level will be
cautioned and then (if persisting) dropped from the Indology list.

Anyone insulting anyone (except themselves) will be subject to the same
sanctions.  

This list has a history of being decent, polite, collegial, and generally
civilized.  Let's try hard keep it that way: we'll all benefit. 

Best wishes,
Dominik


--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz  Thu Jun 26 23:03:25 1997
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 11:03:25 +1200
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031248.23782.1201698967866646271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominic wrote:

>aeroplane.  There is an identifiable genre of science fiction within
>Sanskrit literature.  I'm not aware of much writing on it, but it

Perhaps Sanskrit literature that can be "construed loosely" as science
fiction?  (Given that "Science" per se, the "objective empirical
method of "conjectures and refutations" is itself a comparatively
modern phenomenon.)  I am told that even in ancient Greece, it was
widely held that women had fewer teeth than men.  What seems obvious
to us (to verify the claim by actual counting) never occurred to them.
This can only be attributed to a radical mind-shift that has happened
since then.

- &





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Jun 27 11:04:02 1997
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 12:04:02 +0100
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031269.23782.12220217281568829398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On a trip to Gondal a few years ago, I picked up the following pamphlet:

        Mahar.si bharadvaaja pra.niita ya.mtrasarvasve vimaana
        prakara.nam / sa.m"sodhaka "srii bhuvane"sarii pii.thaadhii"sa
        aacaarya "srii cara.natiirtha mahaaraaja

        muulya 0.75

        "srii bhuvane"svarii prakaa"sana, go.m.da.a-sauraa.s.tra,
        bhaarata.

Date of publication: Monday 10 aa"svina"sukla, sa.mvat 2008.  Extent:
30pp.

To the best of my knowledge, most reports of "a work in Sanskrit on
aeroplanes" are inspired by this publication.

There is no Yantrasarvasva listed in Aufrecht's CC under title or under
Bharadvaaja; CESS lists a Bharadvaaja (A4.288b) who is the alleged author
of a Jaambuuyaamalasuutra = Deviiyaamalasuutra, of which a single MS is
listed as being in Trivandrum (but with no author given).

A Bhaaradvaaja is listed in CESS A4.294 as an ancient authority on "sakuna
cited by Varaahamihira and others.  See also CESS A5.253a: an edition of
the Bhaaradvaajasa.mhitaa listed there would be of interest: anyone
seriously interested in this topic should collect copies of those
manuscripts, and prepare a critical edition of the text.  The manuscripts
are not long, though incomplete, and Nandinaagari is pretty easy to read. 

The Gondal pii.thaadhii"sa, Swaami Cara.natiirtha Mahaaraaja, was the
same person as Jiivaraama Kaalidaasa "Saastrii (d. 1978), who worked at
the Nirnayasaagara (I think; in Bombay anyway) press for some time,
collaborating with Trivikramaacaarya Ji, and then published a number
useful editions of rasa"saastra texts from Bombay and later Gondal.  In
his middle to later life he held an appointment as the Raajavaidya to
the Maharaaja of Gondal, Bhagavat Sinh Jee, who published "A history of
Aryan Medical Science", probably ghosted by Jiivaraama. His editions and
compositions are important, but his most lasting contribution is
probably his collection of ca. 8000 manuscripts, which were sold by his
son Ghana"syaamaji to the Gujarat government, and are now deposited in
the library of the Gujarat Ayurvedic University in Jamnagar.  The
catalogue of this collection, published in Gondal 1960, is a rarity.  It
lists neither Yantrasarvasva nor Vimaana prakara.nam. Jiivaraama was,
unfortunately, duped by some Benares pundit into believing that he had a
genuine birch bark manuscript of a "v.rddha" giitaa.  I have examined
this MS, and it is very clearly a modern fabrication. It is hard to
believe that Jiivaraama, who obviously had a lot of experience with MSS,
could have believed it genuine.  However, he gained kudos from
publishing this work, and it continues to be reprinted.

        "srii bhagavad giitaa, 745 verses, bhojapatrii giitaa, Gondal
        giitaa; First edition 1937 -- latest edition 1990; with
        introduction, complete English translation, and various readings
        edited with the help of an ancient birch-leaf manuscript by
        Poojya Acharyashri Charanatirtha Maharaj. Gondal, 1990.

The Bhuvane"svarii Pii..tha in Gondal continues to be a flourishing
religious centre, and Ghana"syaamajii has a popular healing ministry
there.  The attached Rasa"saalaa manufactures metallic and other
medicines which are distributed all over the world.  Ghana"syaamajii's
principle interest outside his pastoral and healing ministry is the
breeding of Gir cows and donkeys.

Best wishes,
Dominik


--
Dominik Wujastyk               Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk          183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
<URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/>                    FAX: 44 171 611 8545







From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 27 19:46:40 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 12:46:40 -0700
Subject: EkAkshara and other ingenious forms of poetry (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227031291.23782.8686738887023455838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




I am forwarding this message to the Indology list on behalf of
Mr Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma.

Krishna

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Krishna
	I have sent this posting twice to Indology list.
But it did not get there. The list manager says that there
is no record in the log that this posting reached the list
server. Can you please forward this to the list.
Sarma.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:52:12 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA <narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in>
To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
Subject: EkAkshara and other ingenious forms of poetry


The word `chitra' in chitra-kavitva means `intriguing' or `rousing
one's curiosity' and not only `picture'. But bandhakavita has 
picturesque feats also like chakrabandha, khadgabandha, nagabandha etc. 
In these feats the letters of the poem can be cast in the picture of a 
wheel, the picture of a sword, the picture of a serpent etc.
 
In Telugu "PrabandharAja VEnkatEswara VijayavilAsam" by Ganapavarapu
VEnkaTa kavi published by Telugu University, Hyderabad (originally by 
A.P. Sahitya Academy) edited by VEdam VEnkatarAya SAstri ( grandson of 
the more famous namesake) is completely devoted to such feats. It 
contains many feats of prosady (garbhakavita); EkAkshara, dvyakshara,
...., Ekapada, dvipada,..., slesha poems, (chitrakavita) and  various 
picturesque bandhAs like those mentioned above (bandhakavita). In one
single sIsa (a meter) poem, 60 poems of various other meters are 
embedded. At the same time the book has also a story going. This is 
something like bhattikAvya which is meant to demonstrate vyAkarana
sUtrAs of PaNini at the same time narrating RAmAyanA.
 
Sarma.






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From Jyotishi at aol.com  Fri Jun 27 16:47:03 1997
From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 12:47:03 -0400
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031287.23782.2810062813447912619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-27 09:07:05 EDT, Sudheer Birodhkar wrote:
<<< Dear Mr. Dominique,  I am both amused and bemused by your reply. . . .>>>

Namaskaar Birodhkar ji:

Your reply is excellent.
The suppression of knowledge and theft of indigenous treasures the colonial
barbarians perpetrated in most of the world for centuries has left its
hangover in the minds of many.  Unfortunately, some of these victims can be
found in the faculties of world's major universities even today.  This year
as Bharat celebrates the 50th anniversary of its disentanglement from the
foreign savages,  and as Hong Kong relieves itself of similar disease, let us
work together to remove all obstacles in the quest for the real truth in a
freer world.

Jyotishi
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti

Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 27 20:09:20 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 13:09:20 -0700
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031293.23782.12097819025759799471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Jai says:


>Your reply is excellent.
>The suppression of knowledge and theft of indigenous treasures the 
>colonial barbarians perpetrated in most of the world for centuries >has 
left its hangover in the minds of many.  
        --------------

Yeah! Some suffer from colonial hangover, others suffer from an 
alcoholic hangover! T

 This year as Bharat celebrates the 50th anniversary of its 
disentanglement from the foreign savages,and as Hong Kong relieves
--------------------------------------

May I ask you as to what *civilized people* from Bharat are doing in
this *savageland* called America? Why can't people practise what they 
preach? You preach about "jananI janmabhUmischa svargAdapi garIyasi"
but what you practise( by coming here and trying to glue oneself
to America) is "Greencard America deshashcha svargAdapi garIyasi"
:-).



> itself of similar disease, let us work together to remove all 
>obstacles in the quest for the real truth 
  --------

Shubhasya Sheeghram! Let us not waste time in something this auspicious- 
just remove yourself and finding the truth is going to be as easy as 
munching on peanuts.


>freer world

free from pests and human leeches! Oh sure!!!!
Krishna


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---------------------------------------------------------





From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk  Fri Jun 27 12:21:45 1997
From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (pgm)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 13:21:45 +0100
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031271.23782.11338105977666351133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subscribers to this list either believe in or take very seriously
(or both) all kinds of things that many of their academic colleagues
(and not only their academic scientific colleagues) regard as
ludicrous, discredited and not worthy of study.  That some of
these subscribers should rush to distance themselves from the
topic of vimanas is as sociologically interesting as it is
inconsistent.

peter moore





From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu  Fri Jun 27 18:37:31 1997
From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 14:37:31 -0400
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031289.23782.10637693830150537624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



I don't see much reason for the following mail 
in Indology distribution.  To bring personalities
into indology discussion is unfair and unfortunate.
Truth has no nationality and no color either.
Let us help unravel the truth as much we can.

- Bijoy Misra.

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 Jyotishi at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-06-27 09:07:05 EDT, Sudheer Birodhkar wrote:
> <<< Dear Mr. Dominique,  I am both amused and bemused by your reply. . . .>>>
> 
> Namaskaar Birodhkar ji:
> 
> Your reply is excellent.
> The suppression of knowledge and theft of indigenous treasures the colonial
> barbarians perpetrated in most of the world for centuries has left its
> hangover in the minds of many.  Unfortunately, some of these victims can be
> found in the faculties of world's major universities even today.  This year
> as Bharat celebrates the 50th anniversary of its disentanglement from the
> foreign savages,  and as Hong Kong relieves itself of similar disease, let us
> work together to remove all obstacles in the quest for the real truth in a
> freer world.
> 
> Jyotishi
> http://www.flex.com/~jai
> Om Shanti
> 
> Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
> 
> 






From thillaud at unice.fr  Fri Jun 27 12:46:29 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 14:46:29 +0200
Subject: filters
Message-ID: <161227031283.23782.1279063135799082718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	I inform some of you that new mailing handlers (as example Eudora
Light 3.0.21) have filters you can use to send automatically to the trash,
mailings coming from certain persons.
	Hoping to help,
Dominique

PS: for someone who use many pseudonyms, you must make an entry for each
new one (or use as criterium a http address present in the text).

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France







From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in  Fri Jun 27 10:18:29 1997
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 15:48:29 +0530
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031267.23782.11848627950880120552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

jm> When certain people cannot defend their point of view, which they
jm> seem to want to do with their egos, they begin spewing ridicule,
jm> insults and defamation.

"Jyotishi / http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti" is of course our good
old Jai Maharaj again. Someone else (shame that I dont' remember who -
brilliant tip!) already had suggested here that we should have a look at
the document http://www.loop.com/~taxi/jayfaq.txt - the Jai Maharaj
Frequently Asked Questions Sheet. I suggest that this be made compulsory
reading for Indology list members. JM surely knows what he's talking
about, when he mentions egos and ridicule - the above-mentioned text
documents quite seriously high-level ego stuff. Fine bedtime reading.
(It says Jai Maharaj is not a Vedic astrologer at all, but merely a kook
who bothers lists because he wants attention. Is this so?)

RZ






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Fri Jun 27 14:02:45 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 16:02:45 +0200
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031279.23782.4052023113573583375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 13:32 27.06.97 BST, you wrote:
>Subscribers to this list either believe in or take very seriously
>(or both) all kinds of things that many of their academic colleagues
>(and not only their academic scientific colleagues) regard as
>ludicrous, discredited and not worthy of study.  

This, of course, is true. 

That some of
>these subscribers should rush to distance themselves from the
>topic of vimanas is as sociologically interesting as it is
>inconsistent.

Not at all. There are beliefs and beliefs. Most educated people today
realize that the earth if round, not flat. There is a flat earth society for
those who cling to the old belief, but I don't think they would be allowed
to participate in serious scholarly debate on the cosmos. If you still
believe that the earth is flat, you are quite simply a bit daft, and it is
legitimate to keep you out of the debate so that you don't disturb. The same
thing with creationism: It is for people "with special interests". Serious
biologists asking them to go somewhere else and don't waste other people's
time are in their good right. If every conceivable idiocy should be allowed
in professional discussion, we would be swamped by irrelevant postings. It
is quite proper to demand a certain level of quality. For that reason, some
arguments and ideas are ruled "out of court", whereas others, although not
accepted by everyone, are allowed. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Sat Jun 28 00:45:23 1997
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 17:45:23 -0700
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031298.23782.10090983573425361245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



> <<< The claim that "there are no manuscripts of the
>  work and it must therefore be a fabrication"
>  is not, by itself, logically valid.>>>
> 
> Indeed.  I pray that they do not shut down some universities now that a basic
> flaw in how most modern research is conducted has been revealed!  :)

Your concern is touching, but the flawed argument does not necessarily
have major consequences. It is well-known that an argument may be
logically invalid, but the inference itself could still be true. Seocndly,
"there are no manuscripts of the work, so *I suspect* it is a fabrication"
is a perfectly valid attitude to take in research. Without such an
attitude, people will waste their time on wild goose chases. 

Vidyasankar






From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Sat Jun 28 00:01:46 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:01:46 -0500
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031273.23782.8102153456882863202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My thanks to all who replied to my query on translations; some of them I
knew or knew about, just forgot to mention them - Arnold's and
particularly Verma's are rather paraphrases quite departing from the
original.  
   I have been trying to find a copy of Siegel's work (in
libraries of Pune and Calcutta) without success. However I thought that
was some study; shall I understand that it contains also complete
translation of GG ?
   Comments on the French translations welcome. If I get an idea which
might be probably the best one, I may start learning French by reading it,
it's high time ;-)



I forgot to ask one more question:

Does anybody know who was George Keyt, the author of the 1947 Bombay
translation?  I have not come across this name anywhere else. His
translation is not worse than any of the others I saw. Was he at all a
Sanskritist?


Btw right now what I see from the window (rains are the most beautiful
season here in Pune!) is just what the first line of GG says: meghair
meduram ambaram, vanabhuva.h /syaamaas tamaaladrumai.h  

And I am a virahii, but how to send a message through clouds which move
in the opposite direction than desired ... 

Ehm, pardon me. 

REPLY TO S Krishna follows:

On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, S Krishna wrote:

> Among Indian authoresses who have attempted to take a look at the "Gita 
> Govinda", we have Kapila Vatsyayan and Monika Verma. A perusal of Kapila 
> Vatsyayanas works would be interesting in that it compares Bundi and 
> Mewari Versions of the Gita Govinda. 
Do you mean it compares the text of the mss?  I saw one of those books and
got the impression it was a study of the illustrations of the ms and not
its text, nor was it a translation. If I am mistaken, please let me know!

> I also have a question for people who are interested in the Gita 
> Govinda:
> 
> Jayadeva is variously depicted as having been a native of Orissa
> and Bengal( since there is a village called Kendubilva , the village
> where Jayadeva lived in both states) or of KErala, since there is a 
> popular style of singing in Kerala called "sOpAnageetham" which utilises 
> Jayadevas Ashtapadis. My question is:
> Has this question been satisfactorily resolved ? Is it now known for 
> sure as to which place he belonged to?

I am not aware about any substantial new material on this issue. Barbara
Stoler Miller in the intro to her version of GG  (Love Song of the Dark
Lord) from the seventies gave a brief account of the opinions on
Jayadeva's birth-place. Earlier publication (reprinted several times by
Sahitya Academy) "Jayadeva" by, I think, S.K. Chatterjee (?) might be more
detailed. It is written by a Bengali, so you know the conclusion :-)
I should add that also Maithilis claimed he was from Mithila. The village
in Bengal, where there is a "Joydebmela" (Jayadeva-mela) held annually is
in Birbhum district and is nowadays called Kenduli.  Both Orias and
Bengalis will always hold he was from their part of the eastern land. I
think Kerala does not come in question.  Take for example the fact, that
Jayadeva pronounced vocalic R as "ri" (evidenced together with
non-distinction of sibilants in his otherwise always perfect rhymes). In
Bengal (Mithila) it is and in Orissa it was pronounced so. Perhaps never
so in Kerala (right?). 
   However I found it curious that GG is most popular in those Eastern
provinces and in Kerala  which is quite far away, while it is not so
popular in the regions in between (if I am not mistaken).

Once more thanks to all who replied	

Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________

jakub at unipune.ernet.in   

THE ABOVE E-MAIL ADDRESS IS VALID TILL  AUGUST 1997 

My new e-mail address will be settled sometime in September 
Then it will be known to my friend whose address is had at pdas.cz)







From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Sat Jun 28 00:19:36 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:19:36 -0500
Subject: Vedic Civilization in Ancient Turkey
Message-ID: <161227031275.23782.7652002155837657311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 Jyotishi at aol.com wrote:

>    "A 1992 Motilal Banarsidass newsletter reports that the oldest known
> civilization yet recently discovered at Nevali Cori in Turkey has close
[....]

These MLBD Newsletter reports tend to be of various quality...  

It is well known to everyone here that names of Aryan-like deities were
recorded in texts from Anatolia etc. 
What is new to me is the shaven head with a tuft.  Though I do not suffer
the pathological wish to interpret everything that bears similarities as 
"Vedic/Sanskritic influence" I'd be interested to know whether this type
of "hair-dress" (or hair-undress :-) in finds from Turkey is attested in
some more reliable sources.  Anybody knows ?


Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________

jakub at unipune.ernet.in   

THE ABOVE E-MAIL ADDRESS IS VALID TILL  AUGUST 1997 

My new e-mail address will be settled sometime in September 
Then it will be known to my friend whose address is had at pdas.cz)






From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Sat Jun 28 00:25:18 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:25:18 -0500
Subject: The meta-study of "Aeronautics in Ancient India?"
Message-ID: <161227031277.23782.15023755052479338787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

MANY THANKS TO DOMINIK WUJASTYK 

Pl don't hesitate to post similar messages when necessary to prevent our
mail-boxes from becoming mail-dustbins.


Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________

jakub at unipune.ernet.in   

THE ABOVE E-MAIL ADDRESS IS VALID TILL  AUGUST 1997 

My new e-mail address will be settled sometime in September 
Then it will be known to my friend whose address is had at pdas.cz)






From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 28 02:25:30 1997
From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:25:30 -0700
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031300.23782.11330861108167314987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Vidooshakah uvaca :-

>Namaste! In a message dated 97-06-27 16:08:50 EDT, 
>N. S. Raja  wrote:
><<< The claim that "there are no manuscripts of the
> work and it must therefore be a fabrication"
> is not, by itself, logically valid.>>>
>
>Indeed.  I pray that they do not shut down some universities now that a 
basic flaw in how most modern research is conducted has been revealed!  
:)
>
>Jyotishi
>http://www.flex.com/~jai
>Om Shanti
>
>

namo namah! Dan Quayle talking about brains, Newt Gingrich talking about 
ethics, Rush Limbaugh talking about liberalism, Pol Pot talking about 
Ahimsa, your talking about logic, Nick Leeson talking about ethics in 
financial deals......er, is this meaningful?
There is an interesting anecdote about Tirukodikkaval Krishna Iyer,
a well known Carnatic vocalist of yesteryears. After a concert, somebody 
whom Krishna Iyer knew to be completely ignorant of Carnatic
music went up to him( Krishna Iyer) and congratulated him. Krishna Iyer 
raised his voice and yelled:" Call me names if you want to,
slap me accross the face if you want to,do anything other than 
complimenting me about my music. An ignoramus like you complimenting me 
about my music is a greater insult than having somebody spit on me."
  On another occasion, another person who was ignorant of music
walked upto him and said "Your performance seems to have improved since 
last time." Pat came Krishna Iyers answer:"My performance has remained 
at the same level, it is your understanding that has improved since last 
time which is why you are able to appreciate my music better."

Likewise,Maharajan! Your talking about logic is illogical and 
meaningless. On the other hand, if you have actually come to the level
where you can appreciate other peoples logic, hats off to you, 
Maharajadhiraja! Your I.Q. has certainly DECREASED!


Krishna

P.S: I know some of you must be wondering as to how I.Q. can decrease
and people make more meaningful statements than before! The riddle can 
be solved if I inform you that ordinary human beings possess 
intelligence, so we talk about their I.Q(Intelligence Quotient).
But since TVs, Computers and self-styled *Royals*( also called 
pretenders to the throne) possess no intelligence, one is forced to talk 
about "idiocy quotient"( also called IQ) when refering to them.
Therefore,it is possible for ones IQ to decrease and still make more
meaningful statements then before!;-),;-)



---------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------





From Jyotishi at aol.com  Sat Jun 28 00:11:47 1997
From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 20:11:47 -0400
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031295.23782.16436893003241059433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-27 14:02:48 EDT,
"Robert J. Zydenbos" <zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in> 
re-published lies and defamation about yours truly, establishing himself as
one of the same ilk as a few other two or three who have done the same and
brought this list to new lows.  Pity them, help them.

Jyotishi
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti






From Jyotishi at aol.com  Sat Jun 28 00:16:58 1997
From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 20:16:58 -0400
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031296.23782.205488217991776714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste! In a message dated 97-06-27 16:08:50 EDT, 
N. S. Raja  wrote:
<<< The claim that "there are no manuscripts of the
 work and it must therefore be a fabrication"
 is not, by itself, logically valid.>>>

Indeed.  I pray that they do not shut down some universities now that a basic
flaw in how most modern research is conducted has been revealed!  :)

Jyotishi
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti






From mrabe at artic.edu  Sat Jun 28 02:48:50 1997
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 21:48:50 -0500
Subject: Aeronautics in Ancient India?
Message-ID: <161227031306.23782.4364240917249992088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>In a message dated 97-06-27 14:02:48 EDT,
>"Robert J. Zydenbos" <zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in>
>re-published lies and defamation about yours truly, establishing himself as
>one of the same ilk as a few other two or three who have done the same and
>brought this list to new lows.  Pity them, help them.
>
>Jyotishi
>http://www.flex.com/~jai
>Om Shanti


Chris, Help!
[And I'm not crying Wooff]








From Sfauthor at aol.com  Sat Jun 28 02:45:43 1997
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 22:45:43 -0400
Subject: Multilingual typography
Message-ID: <161227031302.23782.15811083446127949629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Readers of this list who are interested in multilingual typography might find
these sites useful:

http://www.microsoft.com/truetype/content.htm

http://www.adobe.com/type/opentype.html

http://www.monotype.com:80/html/oem/uni_intro.html


--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com






From Sfauthor at aol.com  Sat Jun 28 02:45:48 1997
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 22:45:48 -0400
Subject: Sound familiar?
Message-ID: <161227031304.23782.9977291740089902276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does this sound familiar to anyone?


"Many have undertaken the study of *** without attaining the fluency that
might make it the enjoyable as well as useful experience that it ought to
be. Even though grammars, dictionaries, and introductions to *** abound,
there is still relatively little material that guides the beginner gradually
yet expeditiously towards a confident mastery of classical material. For all
too many aspirants, the leap (or toss) into the primary texts has entailed a
falling into a kind of void: suddenly, the project slows down, often ending
in a perpetual stall. It is not hard to understand why. How many people,
after all, actually find themselves attracted by the prospect of inching
their way through the strange idioms of an ancient work, supported only by a
general acquaintance with grammar, an all-purpose vocabulary, perhaps a huge
dictionary with tiny print, and minimal active practice of the language?
Under such conditions, reading *** becomes puzzle-solving, an adventure in
decoding, a challenge to patience, a therapeutic escape in "busy work--
anything but an instructive and vital encounter with an interesting,
complex, and vastly influential culture that often offers great writing,
important ideas, valuable teachings, and significant personalities.

Progress that goes too slowly feels like no progress at all. Those who
choose to become professional classicists might escape the typical bog, but
work-a-day humanists and others who want *** as a cultural resource and a
useful skill rather than as a major life-commitment may well have only a
short time of formal study at their disposal to attain the fluency they
need. If they are going to get it at all, they must get it in a reasonably
timely way."



I took the liberty of substituting *** for the word Latin, but this passage
could just as well apply to most student's experience with Sanskrit.

This was taken from a page at:

http://www.slu.edu/colleges/AS/MCL/tchmat.html

The site outlines an innovative approach to learning Latin. Sanskritists may
find some of the methods described there useful as well.



--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com






From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sat Jun 28 04:41:26 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 00:41:26 -0400
Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion!
Message-ID: <161227031308.23782.17129983819316599014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-21 19:21:53 EDT, thillaud at unice.fr
(Dominique.Thillaud) writes:

<< From my point of view, that's not a problem. mRga and vyAghra (or
 simha) are strongly linked as the couple prey/predator (MBh III,11,24;
 III,200,14 and tens of others) and the hunter can be identified with both
 (see the greek myth of Akteon): obviously mRgahan = vyAghra, but, all over
 the world, the hunting ideology contains an identification with the prey
 (magical ?). I believe that explain the verb mRgayati (te).
 	The two animals of the greek Huntress Artemis are the deer and the
 bear.
 
 	Even if it is etymologically (stricto sensu) wrong, we can't
 neglect the rapport between mRga | mR + gA and dur-gA.
 
 	This don't presume DurgA to be an eurindian Goddess because the
 Wild Beast's Lady (correct ? Greek: PotniA ThErOn, French: Dame des Fauves)
 is well known in many civilizations. But that can explain why, linked with
 DurgA, stags and lions are structurally the same.
 
 	Hoping to help, namaste!
 Dominique
 
 Dominique THILLAUD
 Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France
  >>

I have a theory as to how lion could have replaced stag/buck as the vehicle
of DurgA. I got this idea when I came across the name of a Tantric text,
'mRgendratantra'. 'mRga' can mean both a deer as well as an animal in
general. If there were an early text mentioning the vehicle of DurgA as
'mRgendra', is it possible that it was interpreted as the 'king of animals'
instead of 'king of deers'? While the original could have referred to a
buck/stag as the 'king of deers', the mistaken interpretation could have led
to 'lion' as the 'king of animals'.

In Tamil the word 'mAn' has a similar semantic range as 'mRga' in Sanskrit.
(See DED 3917.) It can lead to some misinterpretation in some contexts but
the concept of 'king of animals' or 'king of deers' seem to be alien to
Classical Tamil usage. CT and CilappatikAram use the word 'kalai' which
avoids the confusion of whether a lion or buck/stag is meant?

What do the Sanskritists think? Can 'mRgendra' result in this type of
confusion? 

Regards

S. Palaniappan







From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de  Sat Jun 28 12:36:29 1997
From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 12:36:29 +0000
Subject: Fwd: A Web of Online Dictionaries
Message-ID: <161227031310.23782.4872233068610627081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,
this might be of interest for some of you:

>    ===================  Forwarded  Message  ===================
>
>WWW Asian Studies Announcements: Apr 1997
>
>A Web of Online Dictionaries
>Bucknell Univ., USA
>An extensive catalogue (compiled by Robert Beard,
>rbeard at bucknell.edu) of online language dictionaries and lexicons.
>Links
>to the following Asia-Pacific resources:
>Avestan-English Dictionary; Chinese-English-Chinese Character
>Dictionary; Chinese-Japanese-Korean Dictionary of Buddhist Technical
>Terms; English-Bengali Dictionary; English-Chinese Dictionaries;
>English-Chinese-English Dictionaries of Commerce,Trade, Medical
>Terms; English-Gilbertese (Kiribati)-French; English-Indonesian
>Dictionary; English-Thai Dictionary; English-Vietnamese Dictionary of
>Technical Terms; German-Thai Dictionary; Hawaiian-English-Hawaiian
>Dictionary; Hindi-English-Japanese; Hmong-English Word List;
>Indonesian-English-Indonesian; Japanese-English Romanji Dictionary;
>Japanese-English-Japanese; Japanese-Finnish-Japanese Dictionary;
>Japanese-Hungarian Word List; Korean-English-Korean Dictionaries;
>Kurdish-English Dictionary; Malay-English Specialized Dictionaries
>(Architecture, Civil Engineering, Construction Management, Urban &
>Regional Planning); Maori-English Lexical Data Base;
>Nauruan-English-German Dictionary; Sanskrit-English-Sanskrit
>Dictionary; Sanskrit-French Dictionary; Swedish-Turkish Dictionary of
>Social Terminology; Tamil Lexicon; Tamil-German Dictionary; Tarawan
>Vocabulary; Thai-English-Thai Dictionary; Tibetan-English
>Dictionaries;
>Tongan-English Word List; Turkish Dictionaries; Turkish-Urdu-English
>Word List; Urdu-English Word List; Vietnamese-English Wordlist of
>Educational Terms; Vietnamese-English/French Computer Glossary.
>Also several links to uther useful linguistics' resources.
>URL http://www.bucknell.edu/~rbeard/diction2.html
>Information supplied by: Israel Cohen (izzy at telaviv.ndsoft.com)
>* Contents' rating [essential - v.useful - useful - interesting -
>marginal]:
>V.Useful
>
>What's New in WWW Asian Studies Online Newsletter ISSN 1323-9368
>URL
>http://coombs.anu.edu.au/WWWVLPages/WhatsNewWWW/asian-www-news.html
>
>- regards -
>
>
>-==================================================-
>Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK           tmciolek at coombs.anu.edu.au
>Head, Internet Publications Bureau
>Research School of  Pacific & Asian Studies
>http://coombs.anu.edu.au/
>The Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200
>ph +61 (0)6 249 0110          fax: +61 (0)6 257 1893
>-=================================================-
>
>THIS INFORMATION WAS PROVIDED BY:
>Info-Liste der Deutsch-Indischen Gesellschaft
>Zweiggesellschaft Darmstadt-Frankfurt
>http://www.th-darmstadt.de/events/dig
>Anmeldung: Mail an df6i at hrzpub.th-darmstadt.de
>
>






From lpatton at emory.edu  Sat Jun 28 16:56:17 1997
From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie L. Patton)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 12:56:17 -0400
Subject: ABORI
Message-ID: <161227031314.23782.8400425538657856014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
Law College Road
Pune 411-004 India
PH: (0212) 336932

Laurie Patton
Dept. of Religion
Emory University
Atlanta, GA 30322

On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Does anyone on the net have a better version of this address?
> 
> Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
> Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
> Poona,
> India
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> 
> 
> Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo
> 
> Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
> Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
> Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
> Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
> 
> 






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun 28 17:51:10 1997
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 13:51:10 -0400
Subject: ABORI
Message-ID: <161227031317.23782.17722271812023675620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You may revise the address slightly:
Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
Law College Road
Pune 411 004
Maharashtra, India
			Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Does anyone on the net have a better version of this address?
> 
> Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
> Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
> Poona,
> India
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> 
> 
> Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo
> 
> Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
> Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
> Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
> Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
> 
> 
> 






From l.m.fosse at internet.no  Sat Jun 28 16:22:38 1997
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 18:22:38 +0200
Subject: ABORI
Message-ID: <161227031312.23782.3329014395788979774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone on the net have a better version of this address?

Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
Poona,
India

Thank you in advance!

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo

Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45






From ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in  Sun Jun 29 04:08:43 1997
From: ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 97 09:08:43 +0500
Subject: ABORI
Message-ID: <161227031319.23782.12424081835246158108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Annals of Bhandarkar Oriental Research Insitute,
Bhandarkar Oriental Research Insitute,
Pune- 411 004
India



On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Does anyone on the net have a better version of this address?
> 
> Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
> Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
> Poona,
> India
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> 
> 
> Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo
> 
> Tel: +47 22 32 12 19
> Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
> Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no
> Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45
> 
> 
> 






From bthorp at plains.NoDak.edu  Sun Jun 29 21:27:05 1997
From: bthorp at plains.NoDak.edu (Burt M Thorp)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 97 16:27:05 -0500
Subject: vetalapanca... (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227031321.23782.17683437667062982041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I recieved this message from a colleague and wonder if anyone can provide 
a quick answer.

Burt M. Thorp
University of North Dakota
Internet:  bthorp at plains.nodak.edu

Burt,

The first query comes from a Swede and I made the mistake of saying I
would try to find out the answer.  The personal name Simba - is it
related/derived from sinha 'lion'? The second one concerns the fact that I
have been driving a variety of people crazy on e-mail by sending them the
better riddles of the Vetalapanca....(can't remember the rest) as
translated by Van Buitenen and I was wondering whether there was any more
Indic literature (in translation) that offers a similar scope of really
good ethical riddles (at least 50 or more people have had to endure the
first one about the three brahmin suitors and I have seen families tear
themselves apart arguing about the answer.









From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Jun 29 21:54:18 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 97 17:54:18 -0400
Subject: Tantrism and the Concept of Image in Tamil/Dravidian
Message-ID: <161227031323.23782.14854270458714211558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Tamil, ?pA? as a root means ?to extend or spread?. From this,  words such
as ?pA? meaning ?warp?, ?pAy? meaning ?to flow?, etc. are derived. ?pAvai? is
one such word which is very interesting from the viewpoint of the origin of
?tantra?.  pAvai can be split into

pA  - the root meaning ?to extend, spread?
v     - the glide
ai   - a suffix 

DED 3379 shows ?pAvai? to mean ?puppet, doll, image, picture, portrait, pupil
of the eye, woman, damsel?. While DED does not show it, in Classical Tamil,
the word also means ? stem of plants, priestess/dancer, and goddess?.
Basically the meanings fall into three groups, image-related, females, and
plant stem.. Let us look at an example where pAvai means ?plant stem?. 

............................... payampamal aRukait 
taZaGkukural vAnin talaippeyaRku InRa 
maNNumaNi yanna mAyitazp pAvai 
taNNaRu mukaiyoTu .................................	(Aka.136.11-14) 

This can be translated as ?the ?aRukai? grass which grew densely in the hole
dug for capturing elephants, and which in response to the roaring clouds?
first rains brought forth washed blue gem-like dark leafed stem (pAvai) with
cool fragrant buds?.  Why is this stem called ?pAvai?? Let us look at the
description of the plant in another poem.

maNi vArntanna mAkkoTi aRukai                   (KuR. 256.1)

This can be translated as ?the dark creeper aRukai which is like the flowing
of blue gems?. A comparison of the two poems tells us that ?pAvai? here means
a ?long/extended stem?. This fits well with the basic meaning  of the root
?pA? meaning ?to extend, spread?.  This suggests that for other two groups of
meanings also, the basic semantics must be based on ?to extend or spread?.

Let us look at the words with ?image-based meanings.  They are ?puppet, doll,
image, picture, portrait, and pupil of the eye?. The common element in all
these is either a two-dimensional or three dimensional representation/figure
of an original. The pupil of the eye is also called ?pAvai? because that is
the area of the eye where an outsider can see the reflected image of what is
seen (NaR.184.7). (In fact, English pupil is also similarly derived from
Latin pupilla, figure reflected in the eye.)

Now why would the word  for ?image? be derived from a root meaning ?to
extend, spread?? That is because, an image or copy is the means by which the
presence of the original is extended or spread to other loci. Thus when a
statue of a deity , say Ziva, is installed in a temple in Tamilnadu, Ziva?s
abode is not only KailAza but also the temple. It is this concept of an image
which is fundamental to iconic worship. That a statue or figurine created by
an expert artist as a simple material object can be infused with divinity
later on is indicated by the following text.

vallOn taiiya varippunai pAvai murukiyanRu anna  (Mat. 723)

This can be translated as ?like the well-decorated statue made by the expert
is infused with the divinity of Muruku?. Similarly, another poem (Aka.22)
describes how Muruku is guided along the path to come to the place of
worship. Significantly, the same word, ARu, could be used for path and river.
When one thinks of rivers and paths as ?extended? entities, one can see how
the root ?pA? makes eminent sense in the word ?pAvai?. 

The meanings related to females, are based on metonymical extensions of the
base word meaning picture, statue, etc. The fact that only females are called
?pAvai? is interesting. It was probably because most of the figurines were of
females. (I am sure even in modern times, Barbie doll probably outnumbers GI
Joe.) Even in Classical Tamil, in only one instance, pAvai is identified with
male, Muruku. Discussing the numbers of figurines found in Indus Valley,
David Kinsley (Hindu Goddesses, p.214) writes, ?Hundreds of female figures
have been found in the Indus Valley civilization. The very number of
figurines has prompted one scholar to proclaim that there must have been a
female figurine in every household....A few male figures have been found, but
in comparison to the female figurines their numbers are fairly insignificant
(although several of them are striking and among the most dramatic figures
found). Thus the Tamil lexical evidence and Indus Valley archeological
evidence seem to be similar when it comes to the issue of figurines. An
interesting fact is that mother goddesses such as the one at Kolli mountain
and KoRRavai/DurgA were called ?pAvai?. The well-adorned priestess who
performed ecstatic dances was also called ?pAvai?. (She was also called
?cAlini?, the name of  the star ArundhatI.)

A significant thing about ?pAvai? in its connection with ?aRukai? is that as
a plant, ?aRukai? is known for its nature to extend as a creeper, take root,
again extend in different directions and take root, and so on. Thus, ?aRukai?
which is used in many rituals, is a fitting model to describe the ?mobility?
and ?localization? aspects of Tamil/Dravidian religion as well as the
spreading of cults. It is probably because of the importance of ?pAvai?
custom in the Tamil/Dravidian culture, different religions, Zaivism,
VaiSNavism, and even Jainism tried to adapt it to their purposes. For
instance, in Classical Tamil, one comes across girls performing a ?kuravai?
dance for ?pAvai? in the month of Tai (Aka.269.14-20). Here there is no other
cultic presence is implied. But in Aka.181, we find the ?pAvai? custom in
connection with Zaivism where Ziva is also linked to four vedas and the
court-yard of the banyan tree. Of course, the works ?TiruppAvai? and
?TiruvempAvai? are products of this effort.

Given this view Tamil or Dravidian concept of ?pAvai?, let us see if this can
add to our understanding of the meaning of ?tantra?. When it comes to the
etymology of the word ?tantra?, there are several theories but most of them
are based on the root ?tan?. For instance, Wendell Charles Beane (Myth, Cult,
and Symbols in Zakta Hinduism, p.126-127) says, ? At any rate, the root
(tan), as it related to the word Tantra, bears the meaning of ?loom, web?,
along with other specific connotative literary and sectarian significations.
In the soteriological sense the meanings proposed by both Eliade and
Chakravarti tend to apply. On the one hand, the tantra is ?what extends
knowledge?; on the other it is ?that which spreads and saves?. Douglas
Renfrew Brooks (The Secret of the Three Cities, p.5) says, ?Literally in
Sanskrit a ?loom? or the warp of threads extended lengthwise on a loom,
?Tantras? weave together concepts and prescriptions for action to create
distinctive, synthetic types of spiritual discipline (sAdhana). Often
etymologized by reference to the verbal roots tan-, ?to stretch, expound,?
and tra-, ?to save?, the Tantras expand the possibilities for human
liberation and empowerment in the increasingly degenerate Kali age?. N. N.
Bhattacharyya in his History of the Tantric Religion (p.2) says, ?The
etymological interpretations point to the fact that Tantra was a general term
for any system serving as the guiding principle of any work and that the use
of the word in a strictly religious  sense was a later growth. In the
religious sense Tantra first came to mean ?the scripture by which knowledge
is spread? (tanyate vistAryate jJAnam anena iti tantram)?. 

Let us look at some key features of Hindu worship. In his book Selected
Studies (p.266), Jan Gonda says, ?Without the special consecratory mantras a
temple or the image of a god remains a mere building or a ?profane? image,
not an object filled with the divine essence, worthy of worship, capable of
helping the devout in their attempts to reach their higher goals. Thus
Rudra-mantras are to be muttered in establishing an image of Rudra,
ViSNu-mantras in consecrating an image of ViSNu?. Later discussing the
doctrines of Tantrists, he says (p.284-286), ?The efficacy of mantras
constituting their cardinal tenet, the spiritual background of their worship
is primarily an effort to awaken the power (?consciousness?) of the mantra in
order *to  visualize the deity* from inside....A mantra is therefore
considered to be the rUpa (form) of the deity? (emphasis mine). The
importance of the image in Tantrism is further elaborated by Jan Gonda as,
?As we now know the image of an Indian deity must conform strictly to the
traditionally correct vision of the deity. Otherwise, it would be useless for
the purposes of worship. When fashioning an image the attitude of the
artist-who must be a member of one of the upper classes-is to be the same as
that of the devotee(bhaktaH) who while contemplating it in daily worship
endeavours to realize his identity with the god he worships and whose
presence is sustained by the image.? 

Andre Padoux also in his book ?Vac? (p.46-47), says, ?Also relevant to
micro-macrocosmic correlations is the Tantric ritual, an outstanding element,
since all Tantras, Agamas, and so forth, in all traditions are essentially
ritualistic texts, and since this ritual is abundant. Let us simply mention
here the cult, the pUjA, which, altogether different from the Vedic
sacrifice, is a worship, often very complex, performed with the help of an
image(mUrti, bera, arcana), whose shape is that of the deity, or with that of
a symbolic support of the deity?s presence, to which the worshiper pays
obeisance.? 

Given the importance of ?image? in Tantrism discussed above, in light of the
Tamil/Dravidian concept of ?image? as an extension of the presence of the
original,  one can hypothesize a connection between the two systems. Consider
the word ?tantra?. The first part of the word, ?tan?, means ?to extend,
spread?. As for the second part, ?tra?, Gonda (Selected studies, p. 253)
says, ?The Sanskrit words in -tra- < Indo-European -tro-, when neuter, are,
generally speaking, names of instruments or sometimes names of the place
where the process is performed.? This leads us to a meaning ?location or
means by which (something) is extended or spread?. This is precisely the
Tamil concept of image, ?pAvai?. Thus it looks like Tantrism is derived from
the basic Tamil/Dravidian ?pAvai? or iconic view of divinity.

Comments from list members are appreciated.


Regards

S. Palaniappan






From rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu  Mon Jun 30 15:04:27 1997
From: rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 10:04:27 -0500
Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion!
Message-ID: <161227031332.23782.5625094645585403310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

>I have a theory as to how lion could have replaced stag/buck as the vehicle
>of DurgA. I got this idea when I came across the name of a Tantric text,
>'mRgendratantra'. 'mRga' can mean both a deer as well as an animal in
>general. If there were an early text mentioning the vehicle of DurgA as
>'mRgendra', is it possible that it was interpreted as the 'king of animals'
>instead of 'king of deers'? While the original could have referred to a
>buck/stag as the 'king of deers', the mistaken interpretation could have >led to 'lion' as the 'king of animals'.

However, the mR^igendrAgama is about shiva and has little to do with
durgA! Hence it is more probable that the title of the text would have
to do with the pati-pashu-pAsha of the shaivite texts and not literally
the "king of animals". Moreover shiva is not associated with lions in
any text, AFAIK.

Ramakrishnan.





From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Mon Jun 30 16:52:34 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 10:52:34 -0600
Subject: Paula Richman
Message-ID: <161227031335.23782.11537760178086842866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


6/27/97

       Political Uses of Ramayanam
      *****************************

Sreenivas posted a query seeking whether Dr. Paula Richman
has written a paper on the political uses of Ramayanam
in Tamil Nadu. I don't think she has written any as of yet.

She is probably busy translating and studying piLLaiththamizh genre of
literature. Where a god, goddess, leaders or king is treated
as a child and sung, usually to about 100 aaciriya viruttams.
Pakazhik kuuththar and Kumarguruparar are the greatest
of Pillaittamil authors on Tiruchenduur Murugan, 
Meenakshi, Vaidheesvaran Koil Muthukumarasamy respectively. 
Eagerly waiting to see:

Paula Richman, Extraordinay child: poems from a South Indian
devotional genre. Univ. of Hawaii press, 1997.

In 1950s, leaders of the Dravidian movement waged a public 
debate saying that Kamban's epic must be burnt because it has
so many erotic passages. C. N. Annadurai quoted few
songs and said jokingly "This is the reason why scholars come
back to Kamban again and again! Now, I understand".
He told, "Kamban's work is totally irrelevant for today 
and is full of Aryan propaganda material."

There was a debate in Madurai where C. N. Annadurai (later
he founded DMK, became CM of TN) argued against Kamban.
Scholars like Navalar Somasundara Bharatiyar, T. P. Meenakshisundaram
were on the otherside. There were few books, booklets coming from
both sides. Recently, somebody has written a Tamil Hindu response
to Anna's Kamba Rasam, refuting each point. Illustrated Weekly of
India had an article by RKG(?) titled 
"Sri. Rama versus Tiru. Ravanan".

Once, I sent a photocopy to Dr. Richman of this work:
C. N. Annadurai, Kamba rasam
For a recent addition:
CNA, kamparacam (I & II),
pArati patippakam, cennai, 1993, 160 p.

Also see,
C. N. Annadurai, tii paravaTTum (Let the flames spread
(to consume Kamban etc))

mullai nilavazakan, kampanin kAmak kalacam, 1969, cennai.

A hindu/traditional Tamil response:
Sankarlal, centii paravaTTum
1974



Pulavar Kuzhanthai of Erode penned "iraavaNa kaaviyam".
Here Ravanan is the hero, leader of Dravidian people.
gifted in music, patron of arts etc.,
Rama could win the battle only by cheating. There are South Indian
folk versions where Sita is Ravanan's daughter.
The style of RaavaNa kaavyam imitates Kamban.
One should say Pulavar Kuzhanthai succeeds in this aspect.
Ravana Kavyam, the anti-epic has never been studied
critically. It was banned during the Congress rule in Tamil Nadu.
One of the first acts of DMK govt. in 1967 is to remove the
official ban and Anna, the CM presided over a conference
discussing the literary merits of Pulavar Kuzhanthai's masterpiece.
Last year, there was a function/souvneir from Singapore
on Ravana Kaviyam.

Pi. Sri. (P. Srinivasacharya) was a Tamil scholar who wrote 
Chitra Ramayanam series in Ananda Vikatan magazine. This erudite
Srivaishnava brahmin was aware of Pulavar Kuzhanthai's talents.
When asked of Pulavar, he quipped "Kuzhanthai thaanE! vaLara
iDam uNDu". ("After all, he is a Child! There is still room for growth.")
I would think Pi. Sri. meant growth of ideas/ideology.

Kuzhanthai means a Child in Tamil. Pulavar was named Kuzhanthai
referring the child god, Murugan. Pi. Sri. intentionally puns
on the word Kuzhanthai - Child as well as Personal name of the
anti-epic's author.

Because of Dravidian Kazhagams, KaraikkuDi S. Ganesan founded
Kamban Kazhagam. There was a resurgence of interest in Kamban
among the public. Murray S. Rajam and Kamban Kazhagam
brought out a critical edition of Kamban's epic. With proper
punctuation marks and sandhi exploded between words.
All of about 11000 Kamban's viruttams in a SINGLE volume
at an inexpensive price. Reprinted many times.
This edition's editors told me: "After that effort, several Kamban
manuscripts have come to light. Only the Govt. can come
with enough resources to update that edition".

Ravana kaaviyam, the reasons for burning Kamban's work as advocated
by Anna, the +/- responses that it evoked will form a 
major PhD topic. If done soon and with deep interest, 
we have the advantage of talking to atleast some of key 
players when they are alive!

N. Ganesan
nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov









From srini at engin.umich.edu  Mon Jun 30 15:59:58 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 11:59:58 -0400
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031337.23782.5538635125976202022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Jayadeva is variously depicted as having been a native
>>of Orissa and Bengal( since there is a village called
>>Kendubilva , the village where Jayadeva lived in both
>>states) or of KErala, since there is a popular style
>>of singing in Kerala called "sOpAnageetham" which 
>>utilises Jayadevas Ashtapadis.

Jayadeva as a native of Kerala _seems_ very far-fetched 
although the gItagovinda has been very popular in Kerala 
and used in various art forms ... aShTapadis are also 
sung in sOpAna-sangItam style in GuruvAyUr and various 
other temples.

In this connection, Nirmala Paniker in her book "Nangiar 
Koothu" talks about a treatise on music and dance called
"nATyamanoramA" found in Orissa which is said to have 
been dictated to an Oriya scholar by a king of Kerala 
named Nilakantha.  Based on this, the author postulates
links between Kerala and Orissa in the 16th/17th centuries,
and also mentions that there are historical records to
show that Chaitanya visited Kerala.

-Srini.





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Mon Jun 30 16:20:35 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 12:20:35 -0400
Subject: Navagraha worship
Message-ID: <161227031339.23782.10758740869592369337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	Krishna wrote about temples dedicated to planets
	in ThanjAvUr Dt of TN:

	sUrya-   sUryanAr koil
	chandra- tiruvArUr
	angAraka- vaidIswaran koil
	budha- ?

tiruvenkADu

	brhaspati-?

AlankuDi

	sukra- ?  

KanjanUr

	shani-?

TirunaLLAru

	rahu- tirunAgeswaram

	ketu-? 

NAganAtarkOil

Outside Tanjore Dt. too, there are some identifications of 
temples with planets such as moon-Tirupati, angAraka-Pazhani,
budha-Madurai, brhaspati/guru-TirucchendUr, s'ukra-S'rIrangam,
rAhu&kEtu-KALahasthI. 

-Srini.





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Mon Jun 30 17:04:11 1997
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 13:04:11 -0400
Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda
Message-ID: <161227031341.23782.6755877034617515215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jakub wrote:

>>However I found it curious that GG is most popular in those
>>Eastern provinces and in Kerala  which is quite far away,
>>while it is not so popular in the regions in between (if I
>>am not mistaken).
 
I don't know how popular or not GG is in Andhra/Karnataka,
but it became popular in TN with the development of the 
bhajana paddhati and the nAma siddhAnta movement in the 
17th/18th centuries and later... the aShTapadis were set 
to Carnatic music and were transmitted down the musical
tradition... in this century, the aShTapadis, and their 
musical setting in SRGMPDN notation, have been printed 
by various people including the doyen Semmangudi Srinivasa 
Iyer. 
 
However, Jayadeva's aShTapadis did not become part of the 
dance tradition in TN as it happened with the art forms
of Kerala like aShTapadi-ATTam, Nangiar Koothu, Kathakali,
etc.  There, padams of the "abhinava Jayadeva" i.e. KShetrayya 
and others ruled and still rules supreme...  aShTapadis have 
become popular only in this century with the development of 
academies like Kalakshetra.  The famous danseuse and abhinaya 
exponent Bala, for example, never danced to aShTapadis.
 
As for the GG-Kerala connection, in another post to the list 
I had talked about Nirmala Paniker's book "Nangiar Koothu" 
which gives some details about the Natyamanorama text and 
talks about cultural links between Kerala and Orissa in the 
medieval period... she talks about historical records of 
Chaitanya's visit to Kerala in the early 1500s...  she also 
mentions a Krishna play in aShTapadi form composed by a 
scholarly Vaishnava Brahmin of Kancheepuram at the Zamorin's 
court in Calicut... he trained his disciples in presenting 
it as a dance, which was performed in the Kancheepuram temple 
(Varadaraja ?) as well as at GuruvAyUr.
 
-Srini.





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Mon Jun 30 18:40:34 1997
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 14:40:34 -0400
Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion!
Message-ID: <161227031343.23782.6457795007488054037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 97-06-30 11:31:25 EDT, you write:

<< If there were an early text mentioning the vehicle of DurgA as
 >'mRgendra', is it possible that it was interpreted as the 'king of animals'
 >instead of 'king of deers'? While the original could have referred to a
 >buck/stag as the 'king of deers', the mistaken interpretation could have
>led to 'lion' as the 'king of animals'.
 
 However, the mR^igendrAgama is about shiva and has little to do with
 durgA! Hence it is more probable that the title of the text would have
 to do with the pati-pashu-pAsha of the shaivite texts and not literally
 the "king of animals". Moreover shiva is not associated with lions in
 any text, AFAIK. >>

I was referring to the possibility of an earlier text even before the
Markandeya Purana where the word 'mRgendra' might have been used. (Tamil
texts refer to the male buck as aNNal iralai which means the 'leader buck'
and if for similar meaning an early Sanskrit text used an expression 'king of
deers', then 'mRgendra' would be a possibility.  I did not mean the word
would have been used in the specific Agamic text mR^igendrAgama.

Regards

S. Palaniappan





From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Mon Jun 30 20:43:56 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 14:43:56 -0600
Subject: Indus Culture, Durga and Cilappatikaaram"
Message-ID: <161227031346.23782.11441780145162930310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Just saw the note from Germany. But I think
varai aaDu and kELai aaDu are two different animals.
For one thing,
varai aaDu's color is pale, close to being white.
kELai aaDu is more brown.

N. Ganesan






From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  Mon Jun 30 21:07:31 1997
From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 15:07:31 -0600
Subject: Paula Richman
Message-ID: <161227031348.23782.3255054164592226642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Dr. P. Richman asked to forward this reference:

Paula Richman, "Epic and State:  Contesting Interpretations of the Ramayana"

in PUBLIC CULTURE: JOURNAL OF TEH SOCIETY FOR TRANSNATIONAL
CULTURAL STUDIES,  Vol 7, no. 3  (1995) , PP. 631-654

The article is a comparison of the way E.V. Ramasami and C. Rajagopala-
chari interpreted the Ramayana in the 1950s in public debate in Madras.



N. Ganesan





From srikanth at engin.umich.edu  Mon Jun 30 20:09:28 1997
From: srikanth at engin.umich.edu (Ranganathan Srikanth)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 16:09:28 -0400
Subject: Navagraha worship
Message-ID: <161227031350.23782.16591453815964453831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Recently, the tamizh nadu govt. tourism corp. has
come up with a package tour covering all 
navagraha kshetras.
Vaideeswaran Koil(Mars-Angaraka), Thiruvenkadu (Mercury-Budha),

Keezhperumpallam (Ketu),Thirunallar (Saturn-Sani),

Kanjanur (Venus-Sukra), Suriyanar Koil (Sun-Surya),

Thirunageswaram (Rahu), Thingalur (Moon-Chandra) and

Alangudi (Jupiter-Guru).

srikanth





From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Mon Jun 30 22:22:08 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 17:22:08 -0500
Subject: Can't receive indology
Message-ID: <161227031326.23782.15093706629044988902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members, for some technical problems I am not receiving the mail from
indology-l. Anyone who posts something connected with my recent queries
(Translations of Gitagovinda; Kavya commentaries; or anything equally
interesting :-) please send a copy to my e-mail address:
       
      jakub at unipune.ernet.in


I may have not received all of the postings from the last two or three
days. If you have replied something to my queries, please bounce that to
me.


Thanks 
	Jakub




Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________

jakub at unipune.ernet.in   

THE ABOVE E-MAIL ADDRESS IS VALID TILL  JULY 11 

My new e-mail address will be settled sometime in September 
Then it will be known to my friend whose address is had at pdas.cz)







From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE  Mon Jun 30 16:33:11 1997
From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Mark F. Tritsch)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 17:33:11 +0100
Subject: Indus culture, Durga and Cilappatikaaram
Message-ID: <161227031334.23782.10048747599966507612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> From:          GANESANS at cl.uh.edu  6/26/97
>    --------------------------------------------
> In the Western ghats, in between Palghat and Coimbatore,
> there is a deer called as "kELai aaDu". It is small - may be 3 feet high.
> I always wondered why it is called a "goat"!. Is it the same as 
> markhor goat, referred to in Parpola's book??!

Dear Ganesan,

according to S.H.Prater, "Indian Animals", the animal you are talking 
about is the Nilgiri Tahr (Hemitragus hylocrius), and he gives the 
tamil and kannada name as varai adoo. I don't know what kelai means, 
but maybe it's just a local variation of the name. Although the 
Nilgiri Tahr is a goat, it is not the same as the Markhor (Capra 
falconeri) - it lives, like its relative the Himalayan Tahr 
(Hemitragus jemlahicus) in even higher and more inaccessible places 
than the Markhor, and above all it has short, slightly curved horns, not 
long and twisted ones like the Markhor.

Greetings,

Mark Tritsch
***************************************************

Dr. Mark F. Tritsch
Breslauer Strasse 14 B
65203 Wiesbaden
GERMANY

Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497

***************************************************





From jakub at unipune.ernet.in  Mon Jun 30 23:38:24 1997
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka Visitor-Sanskrit)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 18:38:24 -0500
Subject: Jayadeva's Birthplace (was Re: Translations of Gitagovinda)
Message-ID: <161227031330.23782.11816831397441443613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wrote:
> >I think Kerala does not come in question.
> >Take for example the fact, that Jayadeva pronounced vocalic R as "ri" 
> >In Bengal (Mithila) it is and in Orissa it was pronounced so.
                          ^^                  ^^^ 


S Krishna replies:
>This is a most interesting point!!!! This would then make one conclude 
>that Jayadeva was indeed from Bengal, because  as of today,the letter 
>"R" is pronounced as "ri" only in Bengal. 

As I have underlined above, I wrote vocalic R  *was* pronounced 'ri' in
Orissa. Ofcourse I know it is not so now. I have checked this with an
Oriya scholar (aware of the historical development of the lg), because I
felt the same as you do. He informed me that "ru" pronounciation (together
with other southern influences) came later on to Orissa (evidence is in
inscriptions.



Jakub Cejka,  jakub at unipune.ernet.in   (till July 10)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
For Indology-l members:

IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO MY POSTING ON INDOLOGY-L PLEASE NOTE THAT
I WON'T RECEIVE YOUR REPLY IF YOU SIMPLY POST IT TO INDOLOGY-L
UNLESS YOU ADDRESS YOUR POSTING TO:
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(that means to the "From:" address instead of "Reply-To:")

---------------------------------------------------------------
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My new e-mail address will be settled sometime in September 
Then it will be known to my friend whose address is had at pdas.cz)






From foulston at msn.com  Mon Jun 30 19:39:29 1997
From: foulston at msn.com (Lynn Foulston)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 19:39:29 +0000
Subject: James J. Preston
Message-ID: <161227031345.23782.18437029197036343290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone know the whereabouts of James J. Preston who edited Mother 
Worship: Themes and Variations (1982) and who wrote Cult of the Goddess: 
Social and Religious Change at a Hindu Temple (1980)

Thanks
Lynn Foulston





From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in  Mon Jun 30 17:52:01 1997
From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 22:52:01 +0500
Subject: Can't receive indology
Message-ID: <161227031351.23782.8108478100269946907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A lyrical telugu translation of Gitagovinda was done Sri M.R.Apparao
who was for somtime the vice-chancellor of Andhra University. This is
published by Vaviilla Ramaswamy Sastrulu & Sons, Madras and published
as an addendum to the sanskrit text and word to word meaning of 
Gitagovinda published by them (in Telugu script). I have copy of it
tucked away somewhere but right now I cannot locate it as my library
is in a packed condition.

Sarma. 

At 01:06 PM 6/30/97 BST, you wrote:
>Dear members, for some technical problems I am not receiving the mail from
>indology-l. Anyone who posts something connected with my recent queries
>(Translations of Gitagovinda; Kavya commentaries; or anything equally
>interesting :-) please send a copy to my e-mail address:
>       
>      jakub at unipune.ernet.in
>
>
>I may have not received all of the postings from the last two or three
>days. If you have replied something to my queries, please bounce that to
>me.
>
>
>Thanks 
>	Jakub
>
>
>
>
>Jakub Cejka
>______________________________________________________________________________
>
>jakub at unipune.ernet.in   
>
>THE ABOVE E-MAIL ADDRESS IS VALID TILL  JULY 11 
>
>My new e-mail address will be settled sometime in September 
>Then it will be known to my friend whose address is had at pdas.cz)
>
>
>
>
>






From thillaud at unice.fr  Mon Jun 30 21:33:28 1997
From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 23:33:28 +0200
Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion!
Message-ID: <161227031353.23782.11820556947349943483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 6:44 +0200 28/06/97, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

>I have a theory as to how lion could have replaced stag/buck as the vehicle
>of DurgA. I got this idea when I came across the name of a Tantric text,
>'mRgendratantra'. 'mRga' can mean both a deer as well as an animal in
>general. If there were an early text mentioning the vehicle of DurgA as
>'mRgendra', is it possible that it was interpreted as the 'king of animals'
>instead of 'king of deers'? While the original could have referred to a
>buck/stag as the 'king of deers', the mistaken interpretation could have led
>to 'lion' as the 'king of animals'.

	Your idea seems interesting but perhaps the change of meaning is on
mRga. In RV and old parts of MBh, mRga is a deer, antelope, stag, &c. But,
later (MBh VI,32,30 = BhG X,30: mRgANAM ca mRgendro 'ham), it's clear mRga
includes all wild animals and mRgendra is the lion or the tiger (in all
this Bhagavatas declaration, nominatives are the 'best of', not the 'king
of' of the genitives).

	A passage is curious (MBh XII,149,93-95):

bhAnur yAvan na yAty astam yAvac ca vimalA dizaH /
tAvad enam parityajya preta kAryANy upAsata //
nadanti paruSam zyenAH zivAH krozanti dAruNAH /
mRgendrAH pratinandanti ravir astam ca gacchati //
citAdhUmena nIlena samrajyante ca pAdapAH /
zmazAne ca nirAhArAH pratinandanti dehinaH //

	In this context, with the choice of the jackal's name, that's not
sure mRgendra to be a lion. Despite the plurals, zyena could be a metaphora
(hi, George) of Agni as the fire-vehicle of the soul and mRgendra
understanded metaphorically as mR(tim)ga(cchatAm)indra ????

	Helping to hope,
Dominique

PS: Using just Tokugawa sensei Index, I don't know who is dead. But I
suppose you know it.

Dominique THILLAUD
Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France