From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 1 00:15:42 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 17:15:42 -0700 Subject: BR^ihaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031355.23782.9480731913280743452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Brockington in "The Sacred Thread" on page 87 writes that "BR^ihaspati is regarded as the founder of politics and the author of a Suutra which reputedly was the original text of the Caarvaakas." He goes on to note that BR^ihaspati is credited with the maxim `better a pigeon today than a peacock tomorrow' which Brockington notes as fitting well with the "generally hedonistic approach of the school." I would like to know what the name of this text is. I've scanned the holding of our libraries here and could not come up with anything written by a BR^ihaspati excepting a dharmashaastra or two. Secondly, is the source of this maxim to be found in the above text? Also, could anyone tell me when and why BR^ihaspati became linked with the Caarvaakas and how strong the connection between these two was? And lastly, what is the reasoning behind crediting BR^ihaspati as the founder of politics? This ought to fill my question quota for the week. Thank you! Regards, Anshuman Pandey From girish at mushika.wanet.com Tue Jul 1 16:12:58 1997 From: girish at mushika.wanet.com (Girish Sharma) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 09:12:58 -0700 Subject: Graha naamaavali Message-ID: <161227031372.23782.10841236614860160516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone recently offered to send me a photocopy of the 108 names of the nine planets. I seem to have lost the email message. Could that person please contact me. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------- Girish Sharma San Diego, CA From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 08:47:34 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 09:47:34 +0100 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031361.23782.835084887326581182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the medical literature, in particular .Dalha.na on Su"sruta, there is a clear distinction in groups of animals: vyaala versus m.rga. A vyaala is a hunting predator: lion, tiger, etc. A m.rga is a not a predator: mongoose, jackal, cat. Best wishes, Dominik From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue Jul 1 16:20:52 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 10:20:52 -0600 Subject: Tamil Self-study Books Message-ID: <161227031370.23782.10605611569869641510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RE: Learning Tamil ******************* Here are some self-study tools to acquire Tamil, (in addition to the more modern computer websites provided by Dr. Thomas Lehmann). Good Luck, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov a) G. Sankaranarayanan, A programmed course in Tamil. Central Inst. of Indian Languages, Mysore, 1994, 401 p. b) Lawrence, S. Jean Handbook Tamil: an autoinstructional course, Int. Inst. of Tamil studies, Madras, 1988, 500 p. c) Sowbhagyalakshmi Vaidyanathan, Tamil newspaper reader. (tamil ceytittal vacakam) Kensington, Maryland, 1990, 432 p. d) Author: Sundaram, N. Deiva. Title: Tamil, an auto instructional course / N. Deiva Sundaram, A. Gopal. 1st [ed.] Madras [India] : International Institute of Tamil Studies, [1984] Description: xiv, 223 p. : ill. ; 21 cm. Notes: Text in Tamil; introductory material in English. "Febrauary [sic], 1984"--T.p. verso. Subjects: Tamil language -- Study and teaching -- Foreign speakers. Tamil language -- Spoken Tamil. e) S. Rajaram A intensive course in Tamil: dialogues, drills, exercises, vocabulary, grammar and word index. Central Institute of Indian Languages, Mysore, 1979, 842 p. f) Nataraca Pillai, Na. Classified recall vocabulary in Tamil / N. Nadaraja Pillai. Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1990. Series title: CIIL recall vocabulary series ; 2. g) Author: Nataraca Pillai, Na. Title: A guide for advanced learners of Tamil / N. Nadaraja Pillai. Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1986. Description: xvi, 236 p. ; 22 cm. Series: Central Institute of Indian Languages occational sic monograph Subjects: Tamil language -- Textbooks for foreign speakers -- English. h) Author: Nataraca Pillai, Na. Title: Pi_lai ayvu : mo_li ka_rpittalil oru putiya parvai = Error analysis : a new approach in language teaching / Na. Nataraca Pillai, Ca. Vimala. Maicur : Te_n_nintiya Mo_likali_n Payi_r_ru Maiyam, Intiya Mo_likali_n Natuvan Ni_ruva_nam, 1981. Description: ix, 133 p. ; 22 cm. i) Author: Subbu Reddiar, Nallappa, 1917- Title: Tami_l payi_r_rum mu_rai. [E_lutiyavar] N. Cuppurettiyar. i.e. 2d ed.] Tirunelveli, Es. Ar. Cuppiramaniya Pillai [1964] Description: xxvi, 689 p. port. 19 cm. j) Asher, R. E. Tamil / R.E. Asher. Amsterdam : North-Holland, c1982. k) Author: Asher, R. E. comp. Title: A Tamil prose reader; selections from contemporary Tamil prose with notes and glossary by R. E. Asher and R. Radhakrishnan. Cambridge [Eng.] University Press, 1971. Description: x, 237 p. 23 cm. l) Author: Pattanayak, Debi Prasanna, 1931- Title: Advanced Tamil reader / D. P. Pattanayak, M. S. Thirumalai, K. Rangan. Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1974- Description: v. ; 25 cm. m) Author: Pope, G. U. (George Uglow), 1820-1908. Title: A handbook of the Tamil language : a Tamil prose reader. New Delhi : Marwah, 1982 Description: 124 p n) Author: Rajaram, S. Title: Tamil phonetic reader [by] S. Rajaram. Mysore, Central Institute of Indian Languages [1972] Description: viii, 82 p. illus. 23 cm. o) Author: Schiffman, Harold F. Title: A Reader for advanced spoken Tamil / Harold F. Schiffman. Washington : U.S. Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare, Institute of International Studies, 1971. p) Shanmugam Pillai, M 1919- A Tamil reader for beginners. [1st ed. Chidambaram? S. Muthu Chidambaram, 1966-68. q) Author: Shanmugam Pillai, M 1919- Title: A Tamil reader for beginners. [1st ed. Chidambaram? S. Muthu Chidambaram, 1966-68. Description: 2 v. 14 x 23 cm. r) Author: Vacek, J. (Jaroslav) Title: A Tamil reader, introducing sangam literature / J. Vacek, S.V. Subramanian. 1st ed. Ce_n_nai : Ulakat Tami_laraycci Ni_ruva_nam, 1989. Description: 2 v. ; 22 cm. ****************************************************************************** From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Tue Jul 1 08:24:20 1997 From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 10:24:20 +0200 Subject: BR^ihaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031359.23782.3027087441821270448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:28 01/07/1997 BST, you wrote: > >Hello, > >Brockington in "The Sacred Thread" on page 87 writes that "BR^ihaspati is >regarded as the founder of politics and the author of a Suutra which >reputedly was the original text of the Caarvaakas." He goes on to note >that BR^ihaspati is credited with the maxim `better a pigeon today than a >peacock tomorrow' which Brockington notes as fitting well with the >"generally hedonistic approach of the school." > >I would like to know what the name of this text is. I've scanned the >holding of our libraries here and could not come up with anything written >by a BR^ihaspati excepting a dharmashaastra or two. Secondly, is the >source of this maxim to be found in the above text? Also, could anyone >tell me when and why BR^ihaspati became linked with the Caarvaakas and how >strong the connection between these two was? And lastly, what is the >reasoning behind crediting BR^ihaspati as the founder of politics? > >This ought to fill my question quota for the week. > >Thank you! > >Regards, >Anshuman Pandey The arthazAstra of kauTilya begins with an invocation to zukra and bRhaspati, supposed to be the primeval teachers of political science. No other allusion to bRhaspati himself are to be found in the text which refers several times to the opinions of bArhaspatya, i.e. followers of bRhaspati (1.2.4; 1.15.48; 2.7.13; 3.11.46; 3.17.13) in the context of "controversies". On this subject, see F. Wilhelm: Politische Polemiken im Staatslehrbuch des Kautalya, Wiesbaden, 1960; A. Wezler: "?ber Form und Character der sogenannten 'Polemiken im Staatslehrbuch des Kautalya'" in ZDMG Band 143, 1, 1993, pp.106 ff.; J. Fezas: "Remarques sur la forme de deux trait?s de l'Inde Ancienne", in N. Balbir (ed.) Genres litt?raires en Inde, Paris, 1994. According to kAma-sUtra : (For the sanskrit text of the KS, see kamasutra.zip, in INDOLOGY files) KS.1.1.5-8, the creator (prjApati) enunciated, in hundred thousand lessons, a set of rules relating to the tri-varga. From this original set, manu, bRhaspati and nandin, derived separate works, respectively devoted to dharma, artha and kAma. KS.1.2.21-24 ascribes to laukAyatikAH, (people only concerned with worldly matters) opinions, according to which : Following the dharma is useless because its result is future and doubtful; who, not being stupid, would transfer something he holds in his hand into someone else's hand; a pigeon today is better than a peacock tomorrow, just like an authentic copper coin (kArSApaNa) is better than a doubtful gold coin (niSka) The fact that lokAyatika is another name for the cArvAka is recorded in Cowell's translation of the sarva-darzana-saMgraha (fourth edition, London,1904) (see chapter 1 : "the charvaka system", it includes various verses ascribed to bRhaspati). See also the prabodhacandrodaya of kRSNamizra*, act II, where the impersonification of materialism (cArvAka) says that the science of politics is the only 'science', the triple (veda) being only a talk for rogues (vatsa jAnAsi daNDa-nItir eva vidyA dhUrta-pralApas trayI), which shows the connection of politics and materialism, bRhaspati being the original exponent of both. You'll find a very lively discussion of materialism in this play, including verses like: "If the animal killed for a sacrifice is gaining paradise, should not the one who orders a sacrifice have his own father executed?" (nihatasya pazor yajJe svarga-prAptir yadIzyate / svapitA yajamAnena ki? nu kasmAn na hanyate), etc. *Sanskrit text and French translation : A. Pedraglio, Un drame all?gorique sanskrit, le prabodhacandrodaya , Paris, Institut de Civilisation Indienne, 1974 > Hoping it helps J.F. From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Tue Jul 1 07:14:37 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 12:14:37 +0500 Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda into Indian Languages (Telugu) Message-ID: <161227031357.23782.14977608098717926882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since I have sent the posting below I have been able to locate the telugu Gitagovinda. I beg the indulgence of list members for the inaccuracy of the author's name. The translator's name is Sri Venkatadri Apparao ( zamindar of vuyyur) and NOT Sri M.R.Apparao, erstwhile while vice-chancellor of Andhra University. The confusion is regretted. Sarma. On 30 Jun I have written >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:50:47 >To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA >Subject: Re: Can't receive indology >Cc: jakub at unipune.ernet.in > >A lyrical telugu translation of Gitagovinda was done Sri M.R.Apparao >who was for somtime the vice-chancellor of Andhra University. This is >published by Vaviilla Ramaswamy Sastrulu & Sons, Madras and published >as an addendum to the sanskrit text and word to word meaning of >Gitagovinda published by them (in Telugu script). I have copy of it >tucked away somewhere but right now I cannot locate it as my library >is in a packed condition. > >Sarma. > >At 01:06 PM 6/30/97 BST, you wrote: >>Dear members, for some technical problems I am not receiving the mail from >>indology-l. Anyone who posts something connected with my recent queries >>(Translations of Gitagovinda; Kavya commentaries; or anything equally >>interesting :-) please send a copy to my e-mail address: >> >> jakub at unipune.ernet.in >> >> >>I may have not received all of the postings from the last two or three >>days. If you have replied something to my queries, please bounce that to >>me. >> >> >>Thanks >> Jakub >> >> >> >> >>Jakub Cejka >>______________________________________________________________________________ >> >>jakub at unipune.ernet.in >> >>THE ABOVE E-MAIL ADDRESS IS VALID TILL JULY 11 >> >>My new e-mail address will be settled sometime in September >>Then it will be known to my friend whose address is had at pdas.cz) >> >> >> >> >> > From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Tue Jul 1 11:27:49 1997 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Mark F. Tritsch) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 12:27:49 +0100 Subject: Indus Culture, Durga and Cilappatikaaram" Message-ID: <161227031363.23782.10543091790827169753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Just saw the note from Germany. But I think > varai aaDu and kELai aaDu are two different animals. > For one thing, > varai aaDu's color is pale, close to being white. > kELai aaDu is more brown. > > N. Ganesan Could it be that different names are used for males and females? In fact in the Nilgiri Tahr, the older bucks are chocolate brown, but the females (and also the young bucks) are grey. These animals have become very rare, so few people will ever have seen one - maybe that also results in some uncertainty in naming. What do "varai" and "KELai" actually mean? Sorry, this is rather arcane - perhaps we should discuss off-list. Greetings, Mark Tritsch *************************************************** Dr. Mark F. Tritsch Breslauer Strasse 14 B 65203 Wiesbaden GERMANY Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497 *************************************************** From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 19:45:35 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 12:45:35 -0700 Subject: BR^ihaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031378.23782.4776289392343377789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey writes: Brockington in "The Sacred Thread" on page 87 writes that "BR^ihaspati is regarded as the founder of politics and the author of a Suutra which reputedly was the original text of the Caarvaakas." He goes on to note that BR^ihaspati is credited with the maxim `better a pigeon today than a peacock tomorrow' which Brockington notes as fitting well with the "generally hedonistic approach of the school." >I would like to know what the name of this text is. I've scanned the >holding of our libraries here and could not come up with anything >written by a BR^ihaspati excepting a dharmashaastra or two. Secondly, is the source of this maxim to be found in the above text? ---------------------------------------------------- As far as I can tell,this maxim seems to be the Sanskritized version of the modern day"Yesterday is a cancelled check, Tommorrow is but a promissory note, so earn all that you can today!" This seems to be a line from a much bigger verse( Kalidasa also has a verse in the same vein, this has been quoted by many authors including Dale Carnegie) in which case one would have to go through all secondary texts refering to Brhaspatis work and look for the requisite verse. (It does not seem to me that this is a proverb from the Hitopadesa/Jatakas which have stories involving animals/birds etc)....Since this is looking for a needle in a haystack, I would suggest contacting the author himself...... It must also be noted that since Brhaspati seems to have been the name of a mythical character as well as a Rishi( and Dr Bockington says that "later, the maxim was attributed to him"), the said ------ originator would have been the later day Rishi instead of the originalmythical character in which case the Katahsaritasaagara MAY help.... Anshuman Pandey: Also, could anyone tell me when and why BR^ihaspati became linked with the Caarvaakas and how strong the connection between these two was? And lastly, what is the reasoning behind crediting BR^ihaspati as the founder of politics? As far as the connection between Brhaspati and Carvaka is concerned, S.N.Dasgupta, D.P.Chattopadhyaya and S.K.Belvalkar mention that Carvaka was a sishya of Brhaspati. It was his doctrine that later provided the basis of Caarvakas hedonistic philosophy. Hedonistic philosophy is also called Barhaspatya. Brhaspati advocated a rational examination of scripture and questioned certain stands of scripture which he found illogical. Caarvaka extended this theory to include overt hedonism and to include "Naastikatavaada". According to D.P.Chattopadhyaya,Caru is a synonym for Brhaspati. Carvaaka translates as "sweet/convincing speech" or "Carus speech". He attempts to link the very word "Caarvaka" to "Brihaspati". There are 2 different theories for saying that Brhaspati is the father of politics. I am not sure if the 2 theories refer to the same Brhaspati. One Brhaspati seems to be the Sage/Advisor to the heavenly beings and another seems to be a later day Rishi( but this is my opinion only and I welcome corrections). 1. Brhaspati was the "Guru", guide and advisor to the DEvas. In order to confuse the ASuras, he is supposed to have taken on the form of Sukra, the Guru of the Asuras and confused them into thinking that right was wrong and wrong was right. This is mentioned in passing in the Maitri Upanishad, one of post-Sankara upanishads. This led to Brhaspati being called the "Guru of Politics" since he resorted to political tactics in order to ensure the supermacy of the Devas. 2. Works transmitted from the Carvaaka school say that Brhaspati helped set up the school of politics which came to be known as "lokayata". Since this precedes the schools set up by Chanakya or Ushanas, they claim that Brhaspati is the father of politics. No work written by Brhaspati is directly available, though there are secondary sources which give tracts/sections of his works on politics.( This is what makes me think that in reply to your first question i.e. which text by Brhaspati refers to the maxim, that the author quotes a swcondary source instead of a primary source). The philospher Jayantabhatt alludes to Brhaspatis "materialistic" and "opposed to spiritual" views in his work"nyaayamanjari". This seems to be another reason for his being called the father of politics. >This ought to fill my question quota for the week. This fulfills my posting quota for the DAY!;-);-) Krishna _________________________________________________________ Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Jul 1 11:58:48 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 12:58:48 +0100 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031365.23782.13559436018934764532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote: >In the medical literature, in particular .Dalha.na on Su"sruta, >there is a clear distinction in groups of animals: vyaala versus m.rga. > >A vyaala is a hunting predator: lion, tiger, etc. >A m.rga is a not a predator: mongoose, jackal, cat. I fail to understand this. Mongoose, jackal and cat are also hunting predators, or do you think they eat grass? :-) Georg From mrabe at artic.edu Tue Jul 1 19:10:37 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 14:10:37 -0500 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031374.23782.16723374206866501769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following Domink who just wrote: >In the medical literature, in particular .Dalha.na on Su"sruta, >there is a clear distinction in groups of animals: vyaala versus m.rga. > >A vyaala is a hunting predator: lion, tiger, etc. >A m.rga is a not a predator: mongoose, jackal, cat. I've been waiting to join this thread until a relevant article I wrote on the subject is posted on the Web...By coincidence it's the first e-text I hope to convert to HTML for a new undergraduate humanities course starting late August, (_Asia at Internet_) The article: _Victorious Durga , The Buffalo Slayer,_ in _MUSE: Annual of the Museum of Art and Archaeology,_ 20 (1986), University of Missouri-Columbia [1988]: 50-65. Anyhow--while the color plates from Singavaram, Tiruchirapalli and Mamallapuram, etc., can wait, I should say now that the lion and deer vahanas exemplify two separate traditions--the lion traceable back ultimately to Ishtar in Mesopotamia (not to the exclusion of contemporary IVC imagery, of course--but the comparable deities remain unnamed so long as the Harappan script is undeciphered). Visual proof that two vahanas were understood as discrete alternatives appears in the Pallava cave-sites enumerated above--where BOTH animals attend Durga [for what its worth--the lion favored on the proper right; deer to her left] From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 14:16:33 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 15:16:33 +0100 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031367.23782.17231029143837271910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> n Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Georg von Simson wrote: > >A vyaala is a hunting predator: lion, tiger, etc. > >A m.rga is a not a predator: mongoose, jackal, cat. > > I fail to understand this. Mongoose, jackal and cat are also hunting > predators, or do you think they eat grass? :-) You're right, of course. Umm. I'm not sure how to express this any better in English. "Big predator v. ordinary animal?" There *is* a sensible difference between, say, a lion and a cat. Is is just a matter of the danger level? We talk about "Big cats" meaning much more than "large moggies". There must be a way of capturing the Sanskrit distinction in idiomatic (not my idiotic) English. :-) Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Jul 1 15:42:31 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 16:42:31 +0100 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031368.23782.964629012389388396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >n Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Georg von Simson wrote: > >> >A vyaala is a hunting predator: lion, tiger, etc. >> >A m.rga is a not a predator: mongoose, jackal, cat. >> >> I fail to understand this. Mongoose, jackal and cat are also hunting >> predators, or do you think they eat grass? :-) > >You're right, of course. Umm. I'm not sure how to express this any >better in English. "Big predator v. ordinary animal?" There *is* a >sensible difference between, say, a lion and a cat. Is is just a matter >of the danger level? We talk about "Big cats" meaning much more than >"large moggies". There must be a way of capturing the Sanskrit >distinction in idiomatic (not my idiotic) English. :-) > >Best wishes, >Dominik > Yes, I think you are right: the opposition is obviously 'dangerous animal' (vyaala) v. 'not dangerous (or, perhaps, as you say 'ordinary') animal' (m.rga). vyaala may, in ordinary sanskrit, also mean 'vicious elephant', 'poisonous snake', so 'predator' might just not be the right word. Best wishes Georg From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Jul 2 07:22:01 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 23:22:01 -0800 Subject: B.rhaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031379.23782.18147155845864194593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See Joshi, Rasik Vihari. 1987. "Lokaayata in ancient India and China." Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute 68:393-405. Joshi reconstructs B.rhaspati-suutra from citations. He also remarks: "In 1824 [? 1924?], Prof. F. W. Thomas edited a manuscript of the B.rhaspati-Suutra but it was proved to be a fabricated one." I cannot check at the moment if Joshi includes the maxim 'a pigeon today than a peacock tomorrow' in his B.rhaspati-suutra collection. As I recall, the Sanskrit original is varam adya kapota.h ;svo mayuuraat. It occurs in Niiti-vaakyam.rta [by Soma-deva?] or ;Sukra-niiti. There are doubts about the authenticity of the latter text (again, as I recall), but the maxim is unlikely to be so late as to be a "Sanskritized version of the modern day"Yesterday is a cancelled check, Tommorrow is but a promissory note, so earn all that you can today!" as S. Krishna speculated. Actually, the maxim's closer parallel in English would be 'a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.' Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Tue Jul 1 19:29:53 1997 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 04:29:53 +0900 Subject: BR^ihaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031376.23782.12877176967077933689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as works on the Caarvaaakas and Baarhaspatyas are concerned, it may be useful to consult the works of Chisho Mamoru NAMAI, such as: Kooki-bukkyoo to ni yoru Baarhaspatya-hihan. {The criticism of Baarhaspatya philosophy in late Buddhist texts} Indo Gakuhoo {Indological Review} 2 (1976), pp. 29-74; 3 (1981), pp. 59-78. Though the detailed arguments put forward in these articles, written in Japanese, may not be accessible to everyone, they nevertheless contain a large number of useful references and should be of great use at least in that respect. There are also some remarks on different stages of development within Lokaayata philosophy in Ernst Steinkellner, "Dharmottaras Paralokasiddhi. Nachweis der Wiedergeburt, zugleich eine Widerlegung materialistischer Thesen zur Natur der Geistigkeit. Der tibetische Text kritisch herausgegeben und uebersetzt" Vienna 1986 (with references to NAMAI's studies). Stating the obvious, there is also Eli Franco's edition and translation of Jayaraa'si's Tattvopaplavasim.ha: "Perception, Knowledge and Disbelief" (Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag 1987, a reprint by Motilal Banarsidass is available, as far as I know) -- Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From Hrid at aol.com Wed Jul 2 14:18:49 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 10:18:49 -0400 Subject: BR^ihaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031383.23782.5784402931700429049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/1/97 10:02:47 PM, mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) wrote: >Anshuman Pandey: >Also, could anyone tell me when and why BR^ihaspati became linked with >the Caarvaakas and how strong the connection between these two was? And >lastly, what is the reasoning behind crediting BR^ihaspati as the >founder of politics? In this regard, could someone comment on any possible relationship between the Brhaspati linked to Carvaka, politics, hedonism etc., and the Brhaspati of the Mahabharata, Bhagavat-purana, etc., i.e. the father of Kaca, the guru of Indra, etc? This Brhaspati, in order to advise the gods, was presumably learned in political science, but is not linked to hedonism. Is this supposed to be the same person? Thank you. Sincerely, Howard J. Resnick From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 21:30:32 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 14:30:32 -0700 Subject: Footnotes in Latex Message-ID: <161227031391.23782.3300485443162861322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe Dominik developed a package which orders footnotes in paragraph format suitable for editing critical editions. Is this what you mean by "producing footnotes in one line"? I seem to have forgotten the name of the package. Dominik? On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Axel Michaels wrote: > Does anybody know how to produce two or more footnotes in one line for a > textcritical edition with Latex including Devanagari-Metafont? Regards, Anshuman Pandey From axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Wed Jul 2 22:31:25 1997 From: axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 15:31:25 -0700 Subject: Footnotes in Latex Message-ID: <161227031385.23782.12092716377564833425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know how to produce two or more footnotes in one line for a textcritical edition with Latex including Devanagari-Metafont? From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 22:49:17 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 15:49:17 -0700 Subject: BR^ihaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031393.23782.14939246203448986979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Howard REsnick writes: >S.Krishna writes: >>Anshuman Pandey: >>Also, could anyone tell me when and why BR^ihaspati became linked with >>the Caarvaakas and how strong the connection between these two was? And lastly, what is the reasoning behind crediting BR^ihaspati as the founder of politics? In this regard, could someone comment on any possible relationship between the Brhaspati linked to Carvaka, politics, hedonism etc., and the Brhaspati of the Mahabharata, Bhagavat-purana, etc., i.e. the father of Kaca, the guruof Indra, etc? This Brhaspati, in order to advise the gods, was presumably learned in political science, but is not linked to hedonism. Is this supposed to be the same person? Thank you. Sincerely, Howard J. Resnick Speaking for myself, I find arguements that support and disprove the arguement that the two Brhaspatis are one and the same. To support the the fact that the two are one and the same: 1. Both are mentioned as the preceptor of the Devas. 2. Both misguide the Asuras into doing things that led to their downfall. 3. Both are depicted as being involved in the writing,transmission of various manuscripts. To disprove the arguement , we have: 1. The Brhaspati who gave "birth" to KaCa was not a hedonist. 2. This Brhaspatis wife( the wife of the father of kaCa) was a chaste woman. The wife of the hedonistic Brhaspati on the other hand was seduced by Chandra . 3. There is nothing that explicitly states that Brhaspati the preceptor of the Devas had emphasized the importance of wordly luxuries nor did he have a disciple called carvAka.( to the best of my knowledge). 4. carvAka was a historical character. If Brhaspati the hedonist were his guru, it can be assumed that Brhaspati the Guru was also a historical character. I am not aware of anything historical about Brhaspati the Guru of the Devas. This Brhaspati identifies with Brhaspati who is found in Astrology i.e. the planet Jupiter and to the best of my knowledge, the planet Jupiter is not historical but more a consequence of astrology and mythology. My own GUESS is that at some stage, somebody added some attributes of Sukra( the traditional rival of Brhaspati) to the character of the original Brhaspati in order to come up with the available characterization of Brhaspati, the guru of Carvaaka.(Pls note that there is a remarkable resemblence bwtween them if one were to ignore the hedonism factor. If we donot take into consideration their family backgrounds i.e. one being the father of kaCa, devayAni and husband of tArA(?) and the others wife having been seduced by Chandra, then the two individuals seem to be the same.) Sukra on the other, is depicted as a pleasure loving Brahmin and is identified with wealth,pleasure and hedonism in astrology. It may have do with the fact that in the story of kaCa Brhaspati drinks a goblet of wine. This incident if taken all by itself, can prove to be the nucleus of his being painted as a hedonist. If one were to add layers of stories to this base, it is possible to derive the character of Brhaspati the guru of Carvaaka from the character of Brhaspati the guru of the Devas. D.P.Chattopadhyaya also says that there were a number of people called Brhaspati who seemed to collapse into fewer and fewer characters as time passed by.. I wouldn't be surprised if this were one more case of such projection/collapse of two characters into one. My answer therefore is a VERY cautious NO as far as the question: "Were the two Brhaspatis the same ? "is concerned. Regards, Krishna _______________________________________________________ Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Jul 2 13:56:36 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 15:56:36 +0200 Subject: Yonidvaara Message-ID: <161227031381.23782.17594630994426053392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In MMW (s.v.) Yonidvaara is said to be the name of a sacred bath, referring to the MBh. Searching in, I've found two occurrencies of this word and one is just in a violent birth's description (MBh XI,4,5). The other (MBh III,82,83) seems more appropriate but not very clear. It appears to be linked with the sacred town of Gayaa but very few details are given. Do someone know more about this sacred bath (location, ritual, meaning of it) ? I would be VERY interrested if the bathing would be the first step of a pilgrimage about 'future life' and VERY VERY if the sacrifice of a little pig would be necessary. Thanks in advance, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Jul 2 14:57:54 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 16:57:54 +0200 Subject: B.rhaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031388.23782.14660551427078142287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 8:23 +0200 2/07/97, Aklujkar wrote: >Actually, the >maxim's closer parallel in English would be 'a bird in hand is worth two in >the bush.' In French, the linguistically interresting sentence: 'un tiens vaut mieux que deux tu l'auras' a good exercise is to translate it ('tiens' is not the plural of 'your' but the imperative of 'to hold') ;-) Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Patte at math-info.univ-paris5.fr Wed Jul 2 15:09:46 1997 From: Patte at math-info.univ-paris5.fr (Patte at math-info.univ-paris5.fr) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 17:09:46 +0200 Subject: Footnotes in Latex Message-ID: <161227031386.23782.17459699995972341063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anybody know how to produce two or more footnotes in one line for a >textcritical edition with Latex including Devanagari-Metafont? You need two packages, available on CTAN sites: footnote.sty and patch.tex. In your file you need: \usepackage[para]{footnote} F.P. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 16:43:26 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 17:43:26 +0100 Subject: Footnotes in Latex Message-ID: <161227031390.23782.1696169440269561185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Axel Michaels wrote: > Does anybody know how to produce two or more footnotes in one line for a > textcritical edition with Latex including Devanagari-Metafont? Yes, my macro package fnpara.sty will do what you want. This has been used successfully for editions published from Groningen etc. There is a more recent package called footnote.sty or something like that which may have more options than fnpara.sty, since it is more recent. For a more complex edition, involving Devanagari, multiple layers of footnotes (testimonia, variants, etc.), notes in paragraph or 2- or 3- columns, and coordinated by automatic line numbering, see the package EDMAC for plain TeX, written by me and John Lavagnino. This is (in my extremely modest opinion, of course) the most powerful critical edition formatting package available, and makes almost any traditional type of edition layout possible. See http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/edmac.html EDMAC has been incorporated into other packages like COLLATE and CET, which you can read about at the above URL. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Jul 3 04:36:53 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 21:36:53 -0700 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031396.23782.12709569229582658802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me add to the confusion regarding vAhanas of durgA. In the popular imagination, the chief myth of durgA (riding a lion) is the killing of the bull-demon mahisha. However, according to the devI mAhAtmya (mArkaNDeya purANa), the lion-riding Goddess who kills mahisha is not Siva's consort, but mahAlakshmI. In his guptavatI commentary, bhAskararAya quotes some other texts, including the lakshmI-tantra from the pancarAtra literature, and holds that caNDikA is primarily mahAlakshmI. Even today, mUkAmbikA in Kollur (generally seen as a "tAntric" form of lakshmI), and mAhAlakshmI in Kolhapur, partake of this ferocious aspect of lakshmI. This raises the possibility that at least some sculptural instances of a lion-riding Goddess, even if she is ferocious, could signify mahAlakshmI, and not durgA, who is generally associated with mahAkAlI. Granted, the mahAlakshmI of the devI mAhAtmya is far from the docile wife of Vishnu, but we must allow for a wide variety of aspects for any Goddess in India. Vidyasankar From Palaniappa at aol.com Thu Jul 3 03:49:34 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 23:49:34 -0400 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031395.23782.10003169565283488793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-07-01 19:18:42 EDT, you write: << Anyhow--while the color plates from Singavaram, Tiruchirapalli and Mamallapuram, etc., can wait, I should say now that the lion and deer vahanas exemplify two separate traditions--the lion traceable back ultimately to Ishtar in Mesopotamia (not to the exclusion of contemporary IVC imagery, of course--but the comparable deities remain unnamed so long as the Harappan script is undeciphered). Visual proof that two vahanas were understood as discrete alternatives appears in the Pallava cave-sites enumerated above--where BOTH animals attend Durga [for what its worth--the lion favored on the proper right; deer to her left] >> Odile Divakaran in "DurgA the Great Goddess: Meanings and Forms in the Early Period" in Discourses of Ziva says the following, "To start with, the reclining ViSNu of the Shore Temple (Mahabalipuram) seems to have been carved together with a DurgA accompanied by a stag as vAhana (the original image has subsequently been replaced by the large lion carrying the Devi which is now at the site). A similar association can also be seen at Singavaram." (p.281) It looks as though that during KuSANa period, both Ziva and DurgA were both shown with lion but not riding it. But it is with the Gupta period she starts riding the lion. On the other hand according to N. P. Joshi, MahAbhArata records 'siMhaga' and 'siMha-vAhana' as epithets of Ziva. Apparently MahAbhArata also calls the lion "Ziva among animals".... According to the Linga PurANa, the lion among wild animals (AraNya) and a bull among domestic ones (grAmya) are forms of Ziva (Discourses on Ziva, p.55). Thus it looks like Ziva was both pazupati as well as mRgendra. But Harivamsa, a late addition to MahAbhArata, mentions DurgA having a lion for vehicle. Since the Goddess is also associated with stag in KuNinda coins, is it possible that the close association of Ziva and ZAkta cultists created this merging of DurgA riding a lion and Ziva holding a deer in his hand? Like in other aspects, did the South follow what happened in the north earlier with old and new vehicles co-existing for some time and later the new one taking over as the sole vehicle? Would appreciate hearing your views. Also, how do I access your e-paper? A Tamil text 'puRapporuL veNpA mAlai' mentions both animals in a description pf KoRRavai, but it is dated to be later than CilappatikAram. Regards S. Palaniappan From mrabe at artic.edu Thu Jul 3 10:36:37 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 97 05:36:37 -0500 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031398.23782.90740548510449953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thiru Paliniappan, Isn't it curious [Vicitracitta, ;-)] that you are asking the same question in this thread that the Jain poet of old posed in the Shilappadirakam? If I may still quote on this list, a Danielou translation:] You came wondering on a stag that proudly bears black antlers. You hold in your bracelet-laden hands a sword dripping with blood after you killed the buffalo demon. . . Why must you stand on a fierce lion whose eyes shoot darts of flame, holding in your frail hand a discus and a conch? [Prince Ilango Adigal, _Shilappadikaram (The Ankle Bracelet)_, trans. Alain Danielou (New York 1965), pp. 80, 81] My article also speculates on the denotative significance of those Ayudhas, BTW. It is not quite ready, together with my first attempt at a personal Web page, but should be posted eventually at this URL: http://www.sxu.edu [something/something...] Until then, From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 3 21:28:06 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 97 14:28:06 -0700 Subject: Translations of Gitagovinda Message-ID: <161227031402.23782.2931243432948047546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:02 PM 6/27/97 BST, Jakub Cejka wrote: > I have been trying to find a copy of Siegel's work (in >libraries of Pune and Calcutta) without success. However I thought that >was some study; shall I understand that it contains also complete >translation of GG ? Yes. Sanskrit transliterated text, with English translation. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Jul 3 15:29:05 1997 From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 97 16:29:05 +0100 Subject: Please please please read Message-ID: <161227031400.23782.16350398520685478125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can I again draw subscriber's attention to the following information. Recently several people have got into problems as a result of not taking heed. The indology list will be moved within the next few weeks but it is *not* there yet. From: Chris Wooff To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Administrivia - please read Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:07:14 +0000 (GMT) We are currently in the process of changing list servers from listproc to listserv. At the moment there is a shadow version of the Indology list of subscribers under listserv. This is there for us test various things. Therefore, at the present time the real version of the list is the one managed by listproc. This has several consequences: 1) You need to advise potential subscribers to use the listproc address. We're starting to see new users trying to subscribe via listserv - this won't get them any email at the present time. 2) Any change in subscription options need to be sent to listproc. 3) Signoff requests must go to listproc. Again, we're seeing existing members of the list using the listserv address. A signoff to listserv will remove you from the shadow but won't stop any emails. From Hrid at aol.com Fri Jul 4 13:18:29 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 97 09:18:29 -0400 Subject: BR^ihaspati and the Caarvaakas. Message-ID: <161227031406.23782.18311350874102882955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/3/97 7:50:17 PM, mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) wrote: > The Brhaspati who gave "birth" to KaCa was not a hedonist. Thank you for your interesting comments. It comes to mind that the Bhagavat-purna, which generally does not depict Brhaspati as anything like a hedonist, does state, at 9.20.36, that Brhaspati once forcibly impregnated his brother's wife Mamataa, against her will. Best wishes, Howard J. Resnick From garzilli at shore.net Fri Jul 4 16:12:35 1997 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 97 12:12:35 -0400 Subject: New Book: TOC Message-ID: <161227031404.23782.2011289432738243327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Istituto di Glottologia e Lingue Orientali (Institute of Linguistics and Oriental Languages) of the University of Milan is glad to announce that the two-volume Festschrift *B A N D H U Scritti in onore di Carlo Della Casa in occasione del suo settantesimo compleanno* edited by R. Arena, M. P. Bologna, M. L. Modena Mayer, A.Passi, pp. xii, 890, with 6 plates b/w. Price: $90 inclusive of shipping and handling will be available by the end of July, 1997. Orders and enquiries should be placed directly with the publisher: Edizioni Dell'Orso, Srl. Via Urbano Rattazzi 47, 15100 Alessandria, Italy phone/fax +39-131-252349 CONTENTS OF BOTH VOLUMES (without diacritics) Sezione I, Indologia [Volume 1, Indology] Victor Agostini Le Saptamatrka nei testi di silpa Riccardo Ambrosini Creazione, conoscenza e distinzione in RV X 81 e 82 Fabrizia Baldissera Una seduzione quasi da manuale: Narmamala I, 142- II, 39; II, 47 - 55 Giuliano Boccali Le immagini del monsone in Asvaghosa Franco Crevatin Osservazioni sul Nighantu (ed infidi dintomi) Paolo Di Giovine Lo splendore di Agni: RV, IV, 5, l5b Donatella Dolcini Nazionalismo, ideologia gandhiana, nuova estetica letteraria: la teoria del genere narrativo in Prem Cand Mariangela D'Onza Chiodo & Emanuela Panattoni Toys and Garnes: Dravidian Loan-Words in Pali Texts Enrico Fasana >From Hindutva to Hindu Rashtra: the Social and Political Thought of Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1883-1966) Giorgio Renato Franci Il profilo di Gaudapada: alcuni tratti Enrica Garzilli Stridhanam: To Have and To Have Not Maria Luisa Gnoato Maestri Divini. Sul rapporto tra maestro e discepolo nell'lndia antica Romano Lazzeroni L'Aurora dalle rosee dita. Preistoria di un epiteto Erberto E. Lo Bue The role of the Scholars of the Nepal Valley in the Transmission of the Indian Buddhist Heritage to Tibet with Particular Reference to the 13th and 14th centuries Daniele Maggi Individuazione ed evento: per un'interpretazione del mondo vedico Paolo Magnone Bhakti e salvezza preterintenzionale nei Purana Lucio Melazzo Madre e figlio mostri. Acqua e luce Chatia Orlandi Il Tempo come entit? inmortale Alessandro Passi Poesia femminile sanscrita nell'India classica e medievale Alberto Pelissero Kavi e koi'es Congetture sul ruolo del vate in epoca arcaica Guido Pellegrini La Sattasai e la terza centuria di Ainkurunuru Roberto Perinu L'esperimento descritto da Bharata, Natya Sastra, XXVIII, 24-28; e da Sarngadeva, Samgita Ratnakara, I, 3, 10-22 Amalia Pezzali La scuola madhyamaka ai suoi albori Stefano Piano A proposito delle murti dei Veda Cinzia Pieruccini Il Puspabanavilasa attribuito a Kalidasa Irma Piovano L'importanza del "documento scritto" quale "prova" nella prassi processuale e nel contenzioso dell'India antica Laura Piretti Kama e i suoi guai: rischi d'amore nell'India antica con particolare riferimento alla letteratura del trivarga Anna Radicchi Candravyakarana e buddhismo Daniela Rossella L'ottavina di Mayura (Mayurastaka) Saverio Sani Sscr. Lipi- (f.) ?scrittura?: aspetti fonologici e semantici Agata Sannino Pellegrini Sura e bevande inebrianti: analisi di un'interdizione Silvia Schwarz Linder Saubhagyastottarasatanamastotra: Inno auspicale contenente i 108 nomi della dea Tripura Sezione II - Linguistica e filologia [Volume 2, Linguistics and Philology] Augusto Ancillotti Le curie del testo iguvino Renato Arena Spigolature greche Francesco Aspesi Greco labyrinthos, ebraico debir Emanuele Banfi Il greco: lingua dei Balcani Paola Beninca' Note di dialettologia lombarda Laura Biondi Considerazioni sulle legende monetali elime in -azib Maria Patrizia Bologna Linguistica generale e indianistica. La "science of language" secondo W. D. Whitney Giancarlo Bolognesi Il problema del nome dell'autore nella traduzione armena dei PROGYMNASMATA Giovanni Bonfadini Le opposizioni vocaliche di durata nel dialetto di Novate Mezzola (So) Vermondo Brugnatelli Asini senza cuore Pier Angelo Carozzi Un'amicizia tra Indologia e Accademia: Carlo Formichi scrive a Uberto Pestalozza Myrna Chayo Tanti paesi, una manina: filastrocche dall'India al Marocco Gennaro Chierchia Considerazioni informali sui rapporti fra sintassi e semantica formali Violetta de Angelis Papia, Elementarium. Tradizione manoscritta ed edizione del testo: alcuni problemi Patrizia De Bernardo Stempel Celtico e antico indiano: in margine alle pi? recenti teorie Anna Maria Finoli "depuis le bord du Gange jusqu'? ceux de la Seine, cette longue caravane de recits" Roberto Giacomelli Il lunfardo agentino: connotazione e semantica di un codice in diafasia Giovanna Massariello Merzagora Un capitolo di storia linguistica europea: il Lager Maria Luisa Mayer Modena Il sanscrito mirmirah "scintillante" e la base indomediterranea mir-/mar-/bir-/bar- Celestina Milani La dea Ilizia nei testi micenei Franco Mosino Greci calabrogreci e grecisti nella Calabria dell'Ottocento Mario Negri A*131a: B*131 VIN Antonio Panaino nairika- e jahika- nell'aldila' zoroastriano Alessandro Roccati La lingua perfetta nella tradizione dell'Egitto faraonico Anna Sikos La questione ebraica nell'Ungheria contemporanea Oscar Botto Allo studioso e all'amico Carlo Della Casa ***************** E N D ************************************ -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli Univ. of Perugia (ITALY) Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india) ************************************************************* From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Sat Jul 5 04:41:27 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 97 20:41:27 -0800 Subject: Panjabi grammar, accent, comparative analysis Message-ID: <161227031408.23782.10241649377530977605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While studying this interesting language I realize that I'm spoiled by the Sanskrit bibliography. I'm looking for the equivalent of Whitney/Macdonell for Panjabi; does it exist at all? Also, has anyone done an in-depth study of the Panjabi accent system? And has anyone compared Panjabi & Vedic accents? Finally, has anyone done any other comparative analysis of Panjabi & Vedic? I'd very much appreciate your advice. With best wishes, Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Sat Jul 5 19:25:49 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 97 11:25:49 -0800 Subject: Panjabi grammar, accent, comparative analysis Message-ID: <161227031411.23782.13701876098104559928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While not being specifically on Punjabi and Vedic, the following may be useful: Misra, Siva-kumara; et al (eds). 1987. Panjabi-samskrta sabda-kosa = Punjabi-Sanskrit glossary. Ilahabada: Rashtriya Sanskrit Samsthan's G. Jha Kendriya Sanskrit Vidyapeeth. LC no. PK 2637 P295 1987. There is also an old article by Satya Vrat Shastri on something like old Skt words in Punjabi. Full reference may be found in the earlier volumes of R.N. Dandekar's Vedic Bibliography. I think I have seen one more, relatively recent, publication in my university's library. I may be able to give details later. Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Jul 5 17:12:48 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 97 13:12:48 -0400 Subject: Translation of RV 10.146.6 Message-ID: <161227031409.23782.16700830070823827745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody give the correct translation of RV 10.146.6? I have seen four versions. "AraNyAnI is lauded by the worshipper as the mother of wild, the unctuous-scented, the fragrant, who fields abundance of food though has no hinds to till her." Translated by V. Muir "Now have I praised the Forest Queen, sweet-scented, redolent of balm, The Mother of all sylvan things, who tills not but hath stores of food." Translated by R. T. Griffith "Adorned with fragrant perfumes and balms, she needs not to toil for food. Mother of untamed forest beasts, Sprite of the wood, I salute you." by Translated by R. Panikkar "Now I have praised the Lady of the Forest, who is perfumed with balm, and fragrant, who is well-fed, although she tills not, the mother of all things of the wild." Translated by A. L. Basham Is there a translation accepted by Vedists as the best translation? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Jul 6 06:17:59 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 97 02:17:59 -0400 Subject: Translation of RV 10.146.6 Message-ID: <161227031415.23782.6480824019940750628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Thillaud, Thank you very much for your help. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Jul 6 06:18:06 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 97 02:18:06 -0400 Subject: Horse, elephant and Dravidian Message-ID: <161227031417.23782.3411328975725880647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Classical Tamil, there is a word, 'mAn2', which seems to denote wild animals and especially antelope/deer. This word is contrasted with 'An2' which refers to the domesticated cattle. The term used to refer to wild cattle is 'AmAn2'. This pair of 'mAn2' and 'An2' seems to be comparable to the contrasting pair 'mRga' and 'pazu' in Sanskrit. But there is a significant difference which seems to give some important information regarding the domestication of the horse and elephant, if it can be called so. In Sanskrit, horse is included in the category of 'pazu' as a domesticated animal. But in Classical Tamil literature which comes several centuries later, the horse is still called 'mAn2'. This is in spite of it being very widely used by itself for riding as well as for drawing chariots. This seems to suggest two things to me. For one, Dravidians did not domesticate the horse (which everybody knows anyway) and secondly, and more importantly, the language has preserved the original 'alienness' of the horse even after so many centuries if not millennia. This is one more evidence for the extraordinary preservation of ancient cultural elements in Classical Tamil. Another interesting fact is that apart from the horse, the elephant is also called 'mAn2'. When coupled with the fact that CT often talks about the Aryan language spoken by the elephant trainers/drivers, it leads one to wonder if the training of wild elephants was an Aryan contribution? or Did the semantics of 'mAn2' change? In Sanskrit, which category does the elephant belong to? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From thillaud at unice.fr Sun Jul 6 04:32:28 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 97 06:32:28 +0200 Subject: Translation of RV 10.146.6 Message-ID: <161227031413.23782.7661712521690876793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:22 +0200 5/07/97, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >Can anybody give the correct translation of RV 10.146.6? I have seen four >versions. > >"AraNyAnI is lauded by the worshipper as the mother of wild, the >unctuous-scented, the fragrant, who fields abundance of food though has no >hinds to till her." Translated by V. Muir > >"Now have I praised the Forest Queen, >sweet-scented, redolent of balm, >The Mother of all sylvan things, who tills >not but hath stores of food." Translated by R. T. Griffith > >"Adorned with fragrant perfumes and balms, >she needs not to toil for food. >Mother of untamed forest beasts, >Sprite of the wood, I salute you." by Translated by R. Panikkar > >"Now I have praised the Lady of the Forest, >who is perfumed with balm, and fragrant, >who is well-fed, although she tills not, >the mother of all things of the wild." Translated by A. L. Basham > >Is there a translation accepted by Vedists as the best translation? Thanks in >advance. AJjanagandhim surabhim bahvannAm akRSIvalAm prAham mRgANAm mAtaram araNyAnim azaMsiSam - the verb: zaMs- is known to exprime the praise and the reinforcement caused by it; this reinforcement cause gifts for the worshipper (pra is prospective). - who is praised: mother of mRgas, the One of the araNya; araNya is the wilderness (dangerous domain of hunting and gathering) opposed to the civilization (peaceful domain of breeding and farming). - this worrying Goddess must be 'civilized' (by the praise) and become: -- surabhi, the Cow of Plenty (gavAm mAtaram); I believe sura-bhi (from bhA): 'splendor, treasure of the Gods', but the 'play' su-rabhi induces: -- AJjana-gandhi, 'made-up and perfumed' (as a beautiful woman). -- bahu-anna, 'giving many food, nourishing' -- a-kRSI-valA, I understand 'who is not turned over (valate) by the plough', kRSI being a vedic instrumental. But a sexual connotation is possible. I believe the main problem is to keep the two meanings, - Celestial Cow as the Earth, with flowers (colour and fragrance), producing fruits without labour. - Celestial Cow as a woman, with make-up and perfume, fertile but virgin. I suppose I could do it in French but my English is poor. I can try: Ornate and perfumed, be the Shine of the Gods, fertile without husband, I praise you up for this, savage Lady of the Beasts! But I confess I have used my knowledge of the greek Goddess Artemis. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Sun Jul 6 20:27:23 1997 From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 97 22:27:23 +0200 Subject: Q: Sontheimer (ed.): The Concept of the Hero(-ine) Message-ID: <161227031419.23782.8103818274873086376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, I have here a courtesy copy of W.B. Bollee which has the following bibliographic notice above the title: "pre-print from: G.-D. Sontheimer (ed.), The Concept of "the Hero(-ine) in Indian Culture, Delhi 1991" But I have not been able to trace this collective volume in any of the catalogues available to me. Is it known otherwise? or was this work really published? (The only reference I know of can be found in Dandekar: Vedic Bibliography. Vol. 5. Poona 1993, p. 541, No. 53.15: Dandekar lists Bollee's article with the information "pre-print from..." as above, so he got evidently only this article and not the whole volume.) \bye Peter Wyzlic -- "What are we going to do?" "Me, I'm examining the major Western religions. I'm looking for something that's soft on morality, generous with holidays, and has a short initiation period." From thillaud at unice.fr Sun Jul 6 22:57:49 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 00:57:49 +0200 Subject: Horse, elephant and Dravidian Message-ID: <161227031421.23782.7224701705283920759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 8:35 +0200 6/07/97, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >In Classical Tamil, there is a word, 'mAn2', which seems to denote wild >animals and especially antelope/deer. This word is contrasted with 'An2' >which refers to the domesticated cattle. The term used to refer to wild >cattle is 'AmAn2'. This pair of 'mAn2' and 'An2' seems to be comparable to >the contrasting pair 'mRga' and 'pazu' in Sanskrit. But there is a >significant difference which seems to give some important information >regarding the domestication of the horse and elephant, if it can be called >so. > >In Sanskrit, horse is included in the category of 'pazu' as a domesticated >animal. But in Classical Tamil literature which comes several centuries >later, the horse is still called 'mAn2'. This is in spite of it being very >widely used by itself for riding as well as for drawing chariots. This seems >to suggest two things to me. For one, Dravidians did not domesticate the >horse (which everybody knows anyway) and secondly, and more importantly, the >language has preserved the original 'alienness' of the horse even after so >many centuries if not millennia. This is one more evidence for the >extraordinary preservation of ancient cultural elements in Classical Tamil. > >Another interesting fact is that apart from the horse, the elephant is also >called 'mAn2'. When coupled with the fact that CT often talks about the Aryan >language spoken by the elephant trainers/drivers, it leads one to wonder if >the training of wild elephants was an Aryan contribution? or Did the >semantics of 'mAn2' change? > >In Sanskrit, which category does the elephant belong to? A good idea, but difficult to apply. Eurindian *peku- is for cattle, farm animals, subjects to razzia, later to commercial purposes. I don't believe *ekwo- is a *peku-: azva is in the scope of ksatriyas and pazu of vaisias. But a study of animal's classification (both arian and dravidian) from different points of view (domestication, danger, sacrifice, God's mount) would surely be interesting. I can't understand sanskrit nAga, I find all usual explications too poor: when BhIma falls into the river, the same nAgAs are masters of poison and strength! Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From stone_catend at compuserve.com Mon Jul 7 10:10:31 1997 From: stone_catend at compuserve.com (Anthony P Stone) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 06:10:31 -0400 Subject: Mailing list for Indic transliteration schemes Message-ID: <161227031431.23782.8507377766145778635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am the Project Leader of a Working Group under the International Organization for Standardization, responsible for developing transliteration schemes from Indic scripts into Latin script (ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12, set up in May 1997). Despite standards like ISO/IEC 10646 and Unicode, there will always be a need for transliteration as long as people do not have the same level of competence in all scripts, or when they have to deal with mechanical or computerised equipment which does not provide all the scripts or characters which they need. It is intended to make the work of the working group more visible and more relevant to end users than has been usual in the past. To enable this, the electronic mailing list Conv-dev has been set up by the Greek national standards body ELOT. We hope that this list will attract members who can contribute useful information and ideas. The following scripts are to be covered by this Working Group: Assamese, Bengali, Devanagari, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Kannada, Oriya, Malayalam, Sinhala, Telugu, Tamil. The purposes of transliteration to be covered by the standard have still to be decided, but may include academic publications (both traditional and electronic), electronic transmission of texts, bibliography, geographical names, email, Web messages, and so on. Both 8-bit/traditional printing and 7-bit schemes will be considered. It will be particularly important that any transliteration scheme in the standard applies to each of the scripts listed above. This will involve the discussion of linguistic equivalents in the different scripts. The Conv-dev mailing list There are now about 25 subscribers to Conv-dev (which is not restricted to Devanagari) and we wish to extend this to cover global interests and expertise in all the scripts shown above. The purpose of this list is restricted to the development of transliteration standards, rather than general discussion on Indic scripts (however interesting and important). Subscribing to the mailing list Conv-dev In order to join the list you should be actively involved in using, or developing, relevant transliteration systems, and should be prepared to contribute to the list from time to time. If you wish to join the list, send an email to majordomo at elot.gr with this message in the body of the text: subscribe conv-dev your at email.address (but with your real email address replacing the string your at email.address). Once you are subscribed, you will receive information about how to post to the list, how to unsubscribe, etc. I look forward to seeing new participants on this list. Please feel free to forward this to anyone else who may be interested in the standardisation issues, and to send me any queries about the list. Tony Stone email: stone_catend at compuserve.com From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Mon Jul 7 14:42:56 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 08:42:56 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit OCR Message-ID: <161227031434.23782.7216508461387375116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Sanskrit OCR ****************** Because Tamil has no consonant cluster letters and only 18 consonants, rather small, it must be easier than Devanagari OCR. Does anyone know of the state of development of Tamil OCR? N. Ganesan From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Mon Jul 7 15:24:27 1997 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 10:24:27 -0500 Subject: AIOC V, 1928 Message-ID: <161227031439.23782.541762857086812040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some while back I'd posted in hopes of getting C.K. Raja's "The Relation of Accent and Meaning in the Rig Veda." It is not in the Proceedings volumes of AIOC V (but another article by CKR is-- re. the nirukta). Ashok Aklujkar kindly noted that the article appears only as a summary in the summary papers of AIOC V, 1928, and that I should write CKR's nephew in Chennai. Having done so, I recieved a fax from Kunjunni Raja which notes that the paper exists only as a short abstract blurb in the Summary Papers. If someone has access to this collect of Summaries, could they please be so kind as to fax it to me? I doubt it could be more than a page or two from the reports I've received. I thank the list for their continued support and indulgence of my quest on this issue. Fax: 319-335-4077 Attention J.R. Gardner OCAS As usual, return reimbursement or favor guaranteed. jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Jul 7 08:44:15 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 10:44:15 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit OCR Message-ID: <161227031429.23782.7369581805020319559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:48 7.07.97 BST, you wrote: >I think I am safe in assuming that no-one has yet developed an optical >character recognition (OCR) system for the devanagari script. > >I know that DHH Ingalls and his son had worked on the problem some 20 years >ago, but I have not heard any more about it. > >In any case, does anyone know of an OCR system that is accurate for roman >transliteration. Has anyone tried to input text in this way? I remember when I was in Tuebingen some years ago (1992 i think) I was told that they had managed to "teach" the OCR program Optopus (spelling correct) to scan devanagari. I had been fairly difficult, and there had been rather a lot of errors. But in principle, Optopus could be taught to recognize any pattern as a letter or a combination of lettes. I used it to scan a romanized Sanskrit text and taught it to give cerebral t's, d's etc. as .t, .d etc. It worked reasonable well. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Jul 7 14:14:06 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 15:14:06 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit OCR Message-ID: <161227031436.23782.16193772148510803654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> OCR for manuscript Devanagari is many, many decades away, in my view, and may never be economical. For printed Devnagari: Romanized text ============== In about 1978 I used a Kurzweil Data Entry Machine 2000 (affectionately known as "Kdem") to scan the romanized text of the Bhagavadgita (Edgerton's edition). The results were excellent. I can't give you actual error rates, but I remember the text was pretty acceptable. In spite of the early date, the Kdem was a very sophisticated machine, implementing powerful pattern-recognition algorithms. Basically, an operator would sit at a VDU while the machine scanned the page; each time an unknown char came up it would be flashed on the screen. The operator would type the encoding on a keyboard, and with several iterations of this process the machine would learn the font. I would imagine that the better OCR programs around today could manage romanized Sanskrit pretty well, with training, as Lars confirms. Devanagari ========== The only published information I know on Dan Ingalls Jr.'s program is section 4 of Daniel H. H. Ingalls and Daniel H. H. Ingalls, Jr., "The Mahaabhaarata: stylistic study, computer analysis, and concordance", Journal of South Asian Literature vol.20, part 1, pp. 17-46. DIJr gives a good account there of his algorithm. He implemented the program in the Smalltalk language (of which he was one of the creators). Few people until recently have had access to cross-platform compilers for this language, so DIJr's work remained almost theoretical for some years. Then, about a decade ago, the Maharishi's organization got hold of the Smalltalk code and reimplemented the algorithm in the language Object Pascal, on the Mac platform. I saw this demonstrated at a meeting held by Richard Lariviere at Austin in 1988 (I think it was). The program was fed some Ramayana text, and did work its way through a page of Devanagari. The error rate was about two or more errors per page, as I recall, with only one in two flagged as such. This is not a good enough rate for large-scale work. The OCR was very slow too. I'm interested to hear that Optopus was able to be taught Devanagari. However, it seems that it is still more economical by a large margin to enter Devanagari printed text by hand than to scan it. One may expect this situation to change, but perhaps not as fast as one might hope. The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae project regularly re-evaluates the state of OCR technology in the context of humanities texts, especially ancient Greek. They still use double-keying in the Phillipines, as far as I know, finding this to be cheaper and more accurate than OCR. (See the links via the Perseus Project on the INDOLOGY pages.) All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Mon Jul 7 06:44:35 1997 From: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au (dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 16:44:35 +1000 Subject: Sanskrit OCR Message-ID: <161227031424.23782.7906131672061773027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think I am safe in assuming that no-one has yet developed an optical character recognition (OCR) system for the devanagari script. I know that DHH Ingalls and his son had worked on the problem some 20 years ago, but I have not heard any more about it. In any case, does anyone know of an OCR system that is accurate for roman transliteration. Has anyone tried to input text in this way? Regards and thanks in advance, David Dargie ***************************************************************** David Dargie Studies in Religion University of Queensland email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Phone: +61 7 3365 7334 Home: +61 7 3397 6863 ***************************************************************** From John.Powers at anu.edu.au Mon Jul 7 06:47:24 1997 From: John.Powers at anu.edu.au (John.Powers at anu.edu.au) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 17:47:24 +1100 Subject: Sanskrit OCR Message-ID: <161227031426.23782.11393565503028658625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Dargie asks: >I think I am safe in assuming that no-one has yet developed an optical >character recognition (OCR) system for the devanagari script. In the case of a typeset manuscript (as opposed to a handwritten one), it's theoretically possible, but the time involved to make it work is probably prohibitive, since the program would have to be taught how to read different manuscripts. With the new teachable programs, typeset manuscripts could be read with varying degrees of accuracy, but in the case of consonant clusters, there would inevitably be some errors, and it would probably be much faster to type it. go, but I have not heard any more about it. > >In any case, does anyone know of an OCR system that is accurate for roman >transliteration. Has anyone tried to input text in this way? > I have done this, but the problem is that I haven't seen any program that can accurately read diacritical marks. Some of them do come out pretty well, and can be changed globally, but there are so many errors that it's still faster to type it manually, and probably generally more accurate. John Powers Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University From YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU Mon Jul 7 21:53:46 1997 From: YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU (J. Randall Groves) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 17:53:46 -0400 Subject: Kalidasa's Raghuvamsa Message-ID: <161227031441.23782.17026405307758739615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists: Does anyone know of an available English translation of Kalidasa's Raghuvamsa. My library is having trouble locating it, so any info would be appreciated. Randy Groves, Associate Prof. of Humanities, Ferris State University. From Nenninger.Wilden at t-online.de Mon Jul 7 22:57:00 1997 From: Nenninger.Wilden at t-online.de (Nenninger.Wilden at t-online.de) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 23:57:00 +0100 Subject: address Th.E. Wolf Message-ID: <161227031443.23782.15269698706077054694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I need the e-mail address of Thomas E. Wolf. Can anyone help me? Thanks, C. Nenninger From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 8 14:57:33 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 06:57:33 -0800 Subject: Panjabi grammar, accent, comparative analysis Message-ID: <161227031454.23782.1461989964033423028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:47 +0100 7/8/97, Adrian Burton wrote: > >As far as I recall they [tones] have not been connected to the Vedic >accents but are >said to have developped relatively recently as a result of phonemic >(tonemic) change. You are right. They compensate for the loss of voice-aspiration and plain aspiration. I was asking for more general and historical analyses, assuming that I must be missing something. Also, I recall having heard that Panjabi is the only modern Indo-Aryan language that may have derived from Vedic rather than from Classical Skt. and would like to have specific sources on that. Thank you. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From mrabe at artic.edu Tue Jul 8 11:59:14 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 06:59:14 -0500 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031451.23782.10248776782668873950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well folks, My article on Durga/Korravai as seen in Pallava and Chola sculpture is now posted, at this URL: http://www.sxu.edu/faculty/rabe/Durga/Index.htm I recommend having something else to read along side your computer during the image downloads, though there's aways text of the article itself coming in faster... Enjoy, Michael Rabe From steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Tue Jul 8 07:38:18 1997 From: steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 09:38:18 +0200 Subject: Kalidasa's Raghuvamsa Message-ID: <161227031445.23782.13759568259236483941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:01:10 BST, J. Randall Groves wrote: >Dear Indologists: >Does anyone know of an available English translation of Kalidasa's >Raghuvamsa. My library is having trouble locating it, so any info would >be appreciated. Randy Groves, Associate Prof. of Humanities, Ferris >State University. The Raghuva.m"sa of Kaalidaasa ... Ed. with a literal translation by Gopal Raghunatha Nandargikar. 2nd edition, Bombay 1891. [5th ed. Delhi 1982]. P. De Lacy Johnstone: The Raghuva.m"sa: the story of Raghu's line, London 1902. A.W. Ryder: Translations of Shakuntala and other works, London-New York 1912. From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Jul 8 08:25:05 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 10:25:05 +0200 Subject: Kalidasa's Raghuvamsa Message-ID: <161227031447.23782.15685281118833210105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:41 8.07.97 BST, you wrote: >On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:01:10 BST, J. Randall Groves wrote: > >>Dear Indologists: >>Does anyone know of an available English translation of Kalidasa's >>Raghuvamsa. My library is having trouble locating it, so any info would >>be appreciated. Randy Groves, Associate Prof. of Humanities, Ferris >>State University. The (collected) Works of Kalidasa were published by Motilal in 1966 and reprinted last year. Editor: C. R. Devadhar. The two volumes contain the Sanskrit text of the plays and poems, as well as translations into English and comments. They should be available on demand. I bought them a few months ago. Best regards Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Jul 8 20:06:42 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 13:06:42 -0700 Subject: Panjabi grammar, accent, comparative analysis Message-ID: <161227031461.23782.13665215887085216734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an earlier response to B. Reusch's inquiry, I mentioned that I would try to get from my university's library the particulars of a relevant book. I now have the particulars. The book, written in excellent scholarly/Sanskritic Hindi, does not have much on accent (it is sparse on the phonetic aspect in general) but is a mine of information on lexical, morphological etc. continuities between Punjabi and Sanskrit (standing frequently for Vedic / Vedic Sanskrit). The book also discusses the relationship between Punjabi and Sanskrit literatures. The details are: Dr. Syama Deva Parasara [= ;syaama deva paaraa;sara]. 1990. Samskrta tatha panjabi ke sambandha. Hoshiarpur: Visvesvarananda Vaidika Sodha Samsthana. Visvesvarananda Bharata-bharati Grantha-mala 81. LC no. PK423 P37 1990. Ashok Aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. From vishvananda at juno.com Tue Jul 8 18:27:18 1997 From: vishvananda at juno.com (vishvananda at juno.com) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 14:27:18 -0400 Subject: Vedic Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227031459.23782.1938197009790386220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working on a translation of Some Vedic Sanskrit Texts and was looking for any resources that deal specifically with Vedic Grammar and Syntax. Right now I mostly use AA MacDonell's A Vedic Grammar, and Sir M. Monier Williams Dictionary, Any other recommendations for vedic work? Also have any dictionaries been entered into computerized format. I'm looking especially for Moniers and any other's that may be useful for vedic work. Vishvananda Ishaya Teacher of Ascension Note: To send e-mail with attatched files, please use ishaya at aol.com From efb3 at columbia.edu Tue Jul 8 21:48:12 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 17:48:12 -0400 Subject: Krsna: contested narratives. Message-ID: <161227031464.23782.15739126232254106984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for renditions of the K.r.s.na story from outside Puranic/Epic/Vaishnava literature (ie from Buddhist, Jain, Shaivite or any other sources). Can anyone kindly assist me with any references? Thanks. Edwin Bryant From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Jul 8 16:26:51 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 18:26:51 +0200 Subject: Announcing new book / self-promotion Message-ID: <161227031457.23782.3857443120981467728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to announce to the members of Indology that my dissertation now is available from Universitetsforlaget, the University Publishing House. Data below: Lars Martin Fosse: The Crux of Chronology in Sanskrit Literature. Statistics and Indology. A Study of Method. Acta Humaniora 21, Scandinavian University Press / Universitetsforlaget. Oslo, 1997. The book can be ordered from: NORbillett, P.O.Box 600, 2601 Lillehammer, Norway. Tel. +47 61 28 79 00. Fax: +47 61 28 79 80. "The book discusses the use of statistical methods in Indological studies, particularly in relation to the problem of the relative chronology of Sanskrit works. Starting with a historical overview, it gives a critique of the statistical work that has been done in the field so far, and then proceeds to discuss the concept of style and the traditional problems related to linguistic history and the manuscript tradition, both of which must be faced by the Sanskrit scholar. The study then discusses the problem of textual homogeneity based on the analysis of a large number of grammatical and stylistic features, and discusses the historical development of Sanskrit as it can be described within the framework of a statistical method. While the results reveal problems in finding a combination of statistical criteria and advanced statistical techniques which would allow the scholar to draw valid conclusions as to the relative age of texts, they also indicate that other combinations of criteria and other statistical techniques may give better results." Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From adrian.burton at anu.edu.au Tue Jul 8 10:39:34 1997 From: adrian.burton at anu.edu.au (adrian.burton at anu.edu.au) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 20:39:34 +1000 Subject: Panjabi grammar, accent, comparative analysis Message-ID: <161227031449.23782.16785715336554431323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:39 5/07/97 BST, B. Reusch wrote: >Also, has anyone done an in-depth study of the Panjabi accent system? And >has anyone compared Panjabi & Vedic accents? Work has certainly been done on the tones of Panjabi, but I will have to dig up the references. As far as I recall they have not been connected to the Vedic accents but are said to have developped relatively recently as a result of phonemic (tonemic) change. From Motegishujun at msn.com Wed Jul 9 09:16:58 1997 From: Motegishujun at msn.com (Shujun Motegi) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 09:16:58 +0000 Subject: Panjabi grammar, accent, comparative analysis Message-ID: <161227031468.23782.4972553157909674041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- From: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk on behalf of Ashok Aklujkar Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 1997 8:17 AM To: Members of the list Subject: Re: Panjabi grammar, accent, comparative analysis In an earlier response to B. Reusch's inquiry, I mentioned that I wou ld try to get from my university's library the particulars of a relevant boo k. I now have the particulars. The book, written in excellent scholarly/Sanskritic Hindi, does not have much on accent (it is spars e on the phonetic aspect in general) but is a mine of information on lexic al, morphological etc. continuities between Punjabi and Sanskrit (standin g frequently for Vedic / Vedic Sanskrit). The book also discusses the relationship between Punjabi and Sanskrit literatures. The details are: Dr. Syama Deva Parasara [= ;syaama deva paaraa;sara] .. 1990. Samskrta tatha panjabi ke sambandha. Hoshiarpur: Visvesvaranand a Vaidika Sodha Samsthana. Visvesvarananda Bharata-bharati Grantha-mala 81. LC no. PK423 P37 1990. Ashok Aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Wed Jul 9 15:28:35 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 09:28:35 -0600 Subject: Raghuvamsam references Message-ID: <161227031466.23782.8043083105842184018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raghuvamsam ************** Found two more interesting references. 1) Jinasamudra (15th century)'s commentary on the Raghuvamsam of Kalidasa. Gandhinagar, Gujarat Sahitya Akademi, 1989, 365 p. 2) K. N. Anantapadmanabhan Raghuvamsam of Kalidasa: an English version in verse. Madras: Ramayana Pub. House, 1973 296 p. (With a foreword by V. Raghavan) N. Ganesan From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 9 23:42:34 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 16:42:34 -0700 Subject: White teeth Message-ID: <161227031470.23782.14305939343295373431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Some Puraa.nas describe the Buddha as wearing red clothes (kaa.saayavastra), having the head shaven (mu.n.dita) and white teeth ('sukladanta). Does anyone know the significance of the white teeth? Any help would be appreciated. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Thu Jul 10 04:12:09 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 20:12:09 -0800 Subject: White teeth Message-ID: <161227031474.23782.58194883695725397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > Dear list members, > > Some Puraa.nas describe the Buddha as wearing red clothes (kaa.saayavastra), > having the head shaven (mu.n.dita) and white teeth ('sukladanta). Does > anyone know the significance of the white teeth? > Chewing paan (betel) stains the teeth red, so white teeth might be considered unusual among people who chewed a lot of paan. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From tatelman at total.net Thu Jul 10 02:08:57 1997 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 21:08:57 -0500 Subject: The Buddha's White Teeth Message-ID: <161227031472.23782.13266652260646800047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the Puraa.nic description of the Buddha as kaa.saayavastra, mu.n.dita and 'sukladanta: I don't know why white teeth is significant to the author of the puraa.na - but I do recollect that, as part of their general ascesis, certain Brahmanical ascetics did not brush their teeth. Perhaps in at least some times and places a Pepsodent smile on a renunciant was a sure-fire way of identifying him or her as Bauddha. Also, for what it's worth, su'sukladanta (or -da.m.s.tra) is one of the 32 mahaapuru.salak.sa.na (see BHSD, p. 459b, no. 26). Hope this helps. Regards, Joel. Dr. Joel Tatelman, 31 Grenadier Road, Toronto, Canada M6R 1R1 Tel.: (416) 535-4997 E-mail: tatelman at total.net From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jul 10 08:40:21 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 09:40:21 +0100 Subject: sanskrit software Message-ID: <161227031478.23782.17729560107358743641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Martin Bemmann wrote: > Is there any (database-)software available sorting entries according to > the sanskrit alphabet? The bibliography program ProCite allows you to define the sort order of an 8-bit character set quite easily. ProCite also allows the import and export of structured records rather easily. The same is true of the bibliography program Library Master. I expect both programs have web sites. The PERL language has a flexible sort function which permits the internal redefinition of sort order. This is probably the cheapest and best option. The word processor XyWrite also permits the easy definition of sort order, and one can mark and sort blocks by any column. Peter Friedlander placed a Devanagari sort program written in Pascal on the INDOLOGY file area for public use. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Thu Jul 10 17:19:44 1997 From: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Bemmann) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 10:19:44 -0700 Subject: sanskrit software Message-ID: <161227031475.23782.1799745590519436036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, We are using Prof. Emmerick's fonts for WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS) since many years for our publications of Brahmi and Kharosthi inscriptions. All the volumes published so far contain complete indices of the inscriptions and the single words or syllables as well. Now we are planning to put those indices together for a register volume. Is there any (database-)software available sorting entries according to the sanskrit alphabet? -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstrasse 4 Postfach 102769 D-69017 Heidelberg -- Germany phone: ++49-6221-543276 fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Jul 10 09:40:03 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 10:40:03 +0100 Subject: White teeth Message-ID: <161227031477.23782.4337709611018366684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > >Some Puraa.nas describe the Buddha as wearing red clothes (kaa.saayavastra), >having the head shaven (mu.n.dita) and white teeth ('sukladanta). Does >anyone know the significance of the white teeth? > You may find some references (on the symbolic meaning of whiteness and on the whiteness of teeth) in Minoru Hara's article "A Note on the Whiteness of Laughter", in Mirja Juntunen a.o. (ed.), Sauh.rdyamangalam. Studies in Honour of Siegfried Lienhard on his 70th Birthday. The Association of Oriental Studies, Stockholm, 1995, pp. 141-159. Best regards, Georg v. Simson From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Thu Jul 10 13:14:47 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 14:14:47 +0100 Subject: Sorting Brahmi Message-ID: <161227031482.23782.18103465360655793586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik commented that the best way to sort Brahmi text might be to use Perl, which (he said) allows you to specify a sort order. Unfortunately that's not true, even in Perl 5; the language allows you to specify a sort *routine* of your own devising, but that's not really much help for this requirement. It could certainly be done in Perl, but, unusually, there would be no great advantage to using Perl as against any other language. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Jul 10 11:55:02 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 14:55:02 +0300 Subject: Sorting Brahmi Message-ID: <161227031480.23782.6946503902194902208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin Bemman, > >We are using Prof. Emmerick's fonts for WordPerfect 5.1 (DOS) since many >years for our publications of Brahmi and Kharosthi inscriptions. All the >volumes published so far contain complete indices of the inscriptions >and the single words or syllables as well. Now we are planning to put >those indices together for a register volume. >Is there any (database-)software available sorting entries according to >the sanskrit alphabet? > I have sort handle functions for Hindi, Nepali and Shina which are almost certainly of no use to you as they are written in an dead language (SNOBOL, using Optsort). What I discovered may be of use however, and that is that defining a sort handle for Devanagari (and thus probably also for Brahmi) is a snap, *provided* that the font is phonetically based (because it has a limited number of ASCII characters to sort). If it is keystroke-based it is extremely difficult, maybe impossible. My Shina sort handle has only 57 characters to deal with, but if I translate that into a keystroke based font I might have over a thousand character combinations to reckon with, when the ligatures are taken into account. I know this because I helped to write a filter (in Pascal) to convert a phonetically based Devanagari font for Nepali (Sarasvati) into a keystroke based one (Jaipur). As least in 1989, the keystroke based font was not sortable. As long as your Brahmi font has a limited number of character combinations to manage, then one or more of the utilities recommended by Dominik would be used. One has only to define the desired sort order of the characters. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From Palaniappa at aol.com Thu Jul 10 20:29:53 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 16:29:53 -0400 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031484.23782.4936566057813623575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Earlier Michael Rabe had cited the translation of some verses from CilappatikAram by Danielou. Danielou's translations have a lot of problems. But Rabe's posting made me take a second look at the relevant passages resulting in some new insights. The relevant lines in CilappatikAram are given below. An2aittOl pOrttup puliyin2 uriyuTuttuk kAn2attu erumaik karuntalaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.8.1-4) vAn2Or vaNaGka maRaimEl maRaiyAki Jan2ak kozuntAy naTukkin2Ri yEniRpAy varivaLaikkai vALEnti mAmayiTaR ceRRUk kariyatiri kOTTuk kalaimicaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.9.1-4) ariyaran2pU mElOn2 akamalarmEl man2n2um virikatiraJ cOti viLakkAki yEniRpAy cankamuJ cakkaramum tAmaraik kaiyEnti ceGkaN arimAn2 cin2aviTaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.10.1-4) kaGkai muTikkaNinta kaNNutalOn2 pAkattu maGkai uruvAy maRaiyEtta vEniRpAy The three lines selected describe KoRRavai standing/riding on animals. The lines and their translation are given below. KAn2attu erumaik karuntalaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.8.2) kAn2attu - of the forest erumaik - of the buffalo karuntalaimEl - on the black head nin2RAyAl - you stood This is translated as, "You stood on the black head of the buffalo of the forest". kariyatiri kOTTuk kalaimicaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.9.2) kariyatiri - black twisting kOTTuk - horned kalaimicaimEl - on top of the buck nin2RAyAl - you stay This is translated as, "You stay on top of the twisting horned black buck". For the third line, interpretation is more complicated. According to aTiyArkkunallAr, there was only one vehicle and he glosses it as "cinaviTai which is the arimAn2". ?arimAn? as a compund form means ?lion? and ?viTai? means ?bull?. Earlier interpreters have taken the line to refer to a lion only and in an earlier posting I had interpreted it to be a bull only. A more intensive and extensive examination of the words, ?mAn2? and ?viTai?, reveals that two animals, a lion as well as a bull, are mentioned in the line. The reasons are (1) ?mAn2? does not refer to domestic cattle and (2) ?viTai? does not refer to lions. In Classical Tamil, ?viTai? is used only to refer to the males of goat/sheep, domestic cattle and wild cattle. The vehicle of Ziva is referred to as ?An2Eru? meaning ?the bull of the domestic cattle? in the hymns of the earliest Zaivite saint kAraikkAl ammaiyar (aRputat tiruvantAti, 59). In one of her poems, she also wonders if the male animal Ziva rides is a male animal which fights in the mountains (lion?tiger?) or a bull or a thunder (aRputat tiruvantAti, 100). The correct interpretation of line 12.10. 2 is given below. ceGkaN arimAn cinaviTaimEl ninRAyAl ceGkaN - red eyes arimAn- lion cina - angry viTai - the bull mEl - on ninRAyAl - you stay This is translated as "You stood on the lion with red eyes and the angry bull". This means unlike the lines (12.8.2) and (12.9.2), which describe only one animal vehicle each, this describes two vehicles. This is possible because, in the next two lines, KoRRavai is described as "With the Vedas praising, you stand in the form of the woman in the portion/half of the forehead-eyed one who wears Ganges in the hair". Now, in light of MahAbhArata?s description of Ziva as a siMhavAhana, we know he had two vehicles, the lion and the bull which is later confirmed by LingapurANa. This means that one can conclude that most likely the lion came to be associated with DurgA after an association of DurgA with Ziva. This means the lion vehicle of DurgA cannot be traced back to IshtAr or Indus Valley until we find clear evidence showing that the association of lion with DurgA was earlier than that with Ziva?s. I think the animal with twisted horns was more likely to be the vehicle of KoRRavai/DurgA. Figs. 3, 5.3, and 6 of Michael Rabe?s web site http://www.sxu.edu/faculty/rabe/Durga/Index.htm all show that the author of CilappatikAram was very accurate in his portrayal of the blackbuck with its twisted horns as the vehicle of KoRRavai. (The blackbuck in Fig. 3 in the web site is not clearly visible. "Elements of Hindu Iconography" by T. A. Gopinatha Rao, Plate CI has a drawing of the same panel where the animal is seen in better detail.) Thus when he associates the lion vehicle with the Ziva-ZaktI union, he is definitely suggesting something. Moreover, the coin type No. 30 of Azes in the Punjab museum Catalogue, Vol.I, p.129, cited by J. N. Banerjea in "The Development of Hindu Iconography", as probably depicting a lion on one side and a bull on the other side seems to reflect this association of DurgA and Ziva. Banerjea also compares this coin to a KushANa coin and says, " It is true that the Syrian or Elamite goddess Nanaia is occasionally represented on some Kushan coins and seals as riding on a lion (Pl.I.fig.24); but the mode of her presentation is quite different from the device under discussion." Given the fact that the blackbuck is represented in many Indus valley ceramic objects, it is one of the better candidates along with markhor or any specially bred animal, if one allows for stylistic variations in some seals. As I have mentioned in my earlier postings, the association of antelope with female divinities is also found in north Indian materials. In all the instances in CilappatikAram where KoRRavai/DurgA is mentioned -even in cases referring to her mantra- she is always called the lady of the leaping blackbuck. The association of lion with DurgA could have come about by the association of lion with Ziva or through KushANa coins depicting Nanaia. Thus CilappatikAram may be providing a unique insight into the development of the iconography of KoRRavai/DurgA. For those interested in CilappatikAram, I would say that the recent translation of CilappatikAram by Parthsarathy is much better. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Thu Jul 10 23:02:08 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 19:02:08 -0400 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031487.23782.12762854200340092792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his article "Lexical Evidence for Early Contacts Between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian" in the book "Aryan and non-Aryan in India" edited by Madhav Deshpande and Peter Edwin Hook, 1979, Franklin Southworth discusses the etymology of the Sanskrit word ?tanU? as quoted below. "The following item is perhaps the most significant of those which I present here: C-10. tanU - ?body, person, self? (RV) - Ta. TAn2/tan2 - ?oneself? (also used as reflexive pronoun) We do not find languages borrowing pronouns, though it does occasionally happen. All of the cases known to me have occurred in situations of extreme linguistic displacement, such as those typical of pidginized languages. This, however, appears very close to such a case, although it seems difficult to determine the direction of borrowing. The word is deeply embedded in the structure of Dravidian, being found in almost all the languages (including Brahui), as well as showing an alternation in the length of the stem vowels which occurs in other pronouns (see Krishnamurti 1968). Furthermore, the same element has been recognized by Emeneau in the terms for younger brother (tampi) and younger sister (tankai) which are attested in early Tamil (see note 6; also Emeneau 1953). On the Indo-aryan side, the word appears in the RgVeda; and there is, furthermore, an Avestan tanU with the same meanings, also used as a reflexive, as well as an Old Persian tanUs ?body, self?. (The Persian tan ?body? may possibly be the source of Hindi-Urdu tan ?body?, rather than the Sanskrit tanU.) Though there is no clear Indo-European etymology for this word, it is hard to imagine the Indo-Iranianists accepting it as a loan from Dravidian. And it would be unreasonable to expect Dravidianists to concede it as a borrowing from Indo-Aryan.4 The possibility of classing it as an accidental resemblence seems to be precluded by the closeness in form and meaning. One could perhaps argue for the possibility that Indo-Iranian had a word for ?body? which accidentally resembled a Dravidian pronoun meaning ?self?, and that the Indo-Iranian word came to be used as a reflexive pronoun under the influence of the Dravidian word. (Note that Sanskrit Atman- ?self? had a similar history, cf. Marathi AplA ?one?s own?, ApaN ?you? (formal), Hindi-Urdu apnA ?one?s own?, Ap ?you?.) Even such a possibility would however, indicate a very close relationship between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian at a very early period." I propose a theory regarding the etymology of ?tanU?. In an earlier posting, I had pointed out how Dravidian ?pAvai? meaning ?image, pupil of the eye, doll, puppet, picture, female, goddess, a long-stemmed plant? is derived from the root ?pA? meaning ?to extend, spread? and its relationship to Tantrism. I think ?pAvai? from root ?pA? is the source of the IA-II ?tanU?. It is a simple translation of the Dravidian concept into IA-II if we consider that the IA-II root ?tan? means ?to extend, spread?. Now why would one consider this to be a borrowing from Dravidian into IA-II and not the other way around? The concept of image as an extension of the original is the basis for the Dravidian religion as discussed in an earlier posting. The aniconic religion of the Aryans could not have had this concept. If the meaning ?image? was the basis of the loan translation, it would be understandable to have the meaning ?body?. If early images were made of humans or animals, the figurine could be considered as ?body? or ?person? by metonymy. In a similar vein, in Tamil, ?pAvai? came to mean ?females?. This means that ?tanU? in its physical ?form? is derived from IE roots. But semantically it is Dravidian. After ?tanU? entered the Aryan language as a loan translation, it could have acquired the reflexive meaning as Southworth has hypothesized. For ?tanU? to enter RV and Avestan materials, the borrowing should most probably have been pre-Vedic. It could have entered the language of the Dasas of the Bronze Age civilization called "Bactria and Margiana Architectural Complex" or BMAC before the proto-RV Aryans came there. In his book "Deciphering the Indus Script? (p.149-152), Asko Parpola says, "It seems that the Proto-Indo-Aryans came into being around the eighteenth century BC, during the transition between BMAC I and II, when two distinct, successive Aryan tribes seem to have fused together, with a concomitant restructuring of religion. A parallel process was the later amalgamation of the Proto-Indo-Aryans of Central Asia and of Proto-Iranians in Zarathustra?s reform, which reinstituted Ahura<*Asurain place of Indra and other daEvas. ?.It has also recently become clear that, for example, the compartmented metal seals of Bactria go back to the traditions of the Early Harappan period in Baluchistan? The only possible connection of the BMAC I or the Hissar IIIb horizon with the Dasas would be for a small wave of Aryan-speaking nomads to have taken over the southern Central asia around 200BC and totally adopted the local culture, yet retained their own language?.After their assumed conquest of the Dasa forts in Margiana and Bactria around 1700 BC (which may have taken place more peacefully than the texts suggest), the Sauma Aryans too would have largely adopted the earler local culture, thereby transforming the cult of the Asura-worshipping Dasas into the pre-Zarathustran Daiva cult (involving the *Sauma drink). Immediately after this second cultural fusion had taken place, one group of the resulting acculturated Proto-Indo-Aryans branched westwards to Gurgan, and from there to northern Syria, becoming the rulers of the Mitanni kingdom, while another faction continued (at least partly via Seistan) eastwards to Swat, founding there the Proto-Rgvedic (=Proto-Dardic) culture of the Gandhara Grave Culture (Ghalegay IV period) (fig.8.24b)." When the Dasas retained their language but totally adopted the local culture, the chances of their loan-translating a non-native word ?pAvai? as ?tanU? could be very high indeed. Then the word could have entered the vocabulary of the Proto-Indo-Aryans and then Proto-Iranians as these different groups interacted with each other. This seems to suggest that the origin of Tantra in its basic aspects was clearly pre-Vedic. Any comments would be appreciated. Regards S. Palaniappan From jai at flex.com Fri Jul 11 06:02:22 1997 From: jai at flex.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 20:02:22 -1000 Subject: Science and Technology in Ancient India - Illustrated Book on Web Message-ID: <161227031495.23782.1418933316625458055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 6:43 AM 7/11/97 BST, sudheer birodkar wrote: > I have uploaded the entire text of my book "Ancient India's > Contribution to the World's Culture" at the site: > "http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/book.html" Namaskaar, Sudheer Birodkar ji: That is very generous of you. Dhanyavaad. Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com Fri Jul 11 05:37:50 1997 From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 22:37:50 -0700 Subject: Science and Technology in Ancient India - Illustrated Book on Web Message-ID: <161227031493.23782.10081025475570383521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have uploaded the entire text of my book "Ancient India's Contribution to the World's Culture" at the site: "http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/book.html" The site is illustrated with fast downloading colour illustrations. I invite you to visit the site. Sudheer _______________________________________________________ Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com From Nenninger.Wilden at t-online.de Thu Jul 10 23:19:00 1997 From: Nenninger.Wilden at t-online.de (Nenninger.Wilden at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 00:19:00 +0100 Subject: Address Th.E. Wood Message-ID: <161227031485.23782.12526563643850164907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the mistake: it is Thomas E. Wood, of course, (not Wolf) whose e-mail address i am looking for. Can anyone help me? C. Nenninger From mrabe at artic.edu Fri Jul 11 11:54:17 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 06:54:17 -0500 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031498.23782.15374509400329651483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to two points made yesterday by Mr. Palaniappan: Given the previous disclosures about Danielou's mistranslations of the Kamasutra, I'd not be surprised to learn of equally egregious errors in his CilappatikAram. However, I must say, (admittedly before tracking down a copy of Parthasarathy's translation--thank you for the suggestion) that your construal of CilappatikAram12:10.1-4) is counter intuitive. You propose the following: >cankamuJ cakkaramum tAmaraik kaiyEnti >ceGkaN arimAn2 cin2aviTaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.10.1-4) >kaGkai muTikkaNinta kaNNutalOn2 pAkattu >maGkai uruvAy maRaiyEtta vEniRpAy ... >This is translated as "You stood on the lion with red eyes and the angry bull". > This means unlike the lines (12.8.2) and (12.9.2), which describe only one > animal vehicle each, this describes two vehicles. However, isn't it the case that the two animals appear beneath Durga/Korravai for different reasons, one as vehicle and the other as victim? As such this reasoning is in line with Dominique Thillaud's observation, as expressed on Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:47:37 BST: _From my point of view, that's not a problem. mRga and vyAghra (or simha) are > strongly linked as the couple prey/predator (MBh III,11,24; III,200,14 and > tens of others) and the hunter can be identified with both (see the greek myth > of Akteon): obviously mRgahan = vyAghra, but, all over the world, the hunting > ideology contains an identification with the prey (magical ?)._ Specifically, therefore, I question your attribution of the adjective "angry" to the "bull", which should already be dead by the time Durga stands upon its severed head. The latter motif was the subject of my article on the iconography of this goddess as it is found primarily in Tamilnadu. Secondly, there seems to be an implicit contradiction between your apparent rejection of my allusion to lion-riding Ishtar as a precedent, but acceptance of J.N. Banerjea's reference to the lion-riding goddess Nanaia (or simply_Nana_) on Kushana coins. Basically, these are variant names of the same West Asian goddess, or goddess-type (with warlike nature, riding a lion) and in proof of this, I quote John Rosenfield, _The Dynastic Arts of the Kushanas_ (Berkeley: University of California Press, l967), p 85: __The cult of Innana-Ishtar-Astarte persisted into the Parthian period,...At Dura-Europus there was a vast temple complex, its early phases datable roughly to the third and second centuries B.C. In inscriptions there, the deity was called both Nanaia and Artemis, as she was in classical literary sources__ Which brings me back to Mr. Thillaud, the modest _etc._ participant in this thread, who continued in that posting quoted above: __The two animals of the greek Huntress Artemis are the deer and the bear...This (doesn't) presume DurgA to be an eurindian Goddess because the Wild Beast's Lady (correct ? Greek: PotniA ThErOn, French: Dame des Fauves) is well known in many civilizations. But that can explain why, linked with DurgA, stags and lions are structurally the same.__ Again, to conclude, and _viva le difference_, I see the Tamil Korravai as mounted on a deer (not hunting it per se, as does Artemis?), while the CilappatikAram's poet and roughly contemporary Pallava sculptors are acutely aware that elsewhere the same goddess rides a lion. Thank you, Mr. Palaniappan, for reviving this thread, and for the wonderful Tamil glosses. Michael Rabe From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Fri Jul 11 14:23:08 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 07:23:08 -0700 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031500.23782.11868522891509475364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Palaniappan writes: >Though there is no clear Indo-Europeanetymology for this word, it is >hard to imagine the Indo-Iranianists acceptingit as a loan from >Dravidian. And it would be unreasonable to expect Dravidianists to >concede it as a borrowing from Indo-Aryan. The possibility >of classing it as an accidental resemblence seems to be precluded by >thecloseness in form and meaning. ----------------------------- --------------------------------- Speaking for myself, I am not sure if that resemblence in form and meaning by itself can be used as an arguement to preclude accidental resemblance, more so in the case of the Dravidian languages. My experience has been that there are words from the Dravidian languages have counterparts in other languages to which they are not related in terms of orgin. Yet, the words have the same meaning and same/similar pronounciation. Words in the Dravidian Language group and these languages taken as a WHOLE have no relationship with each other. It seems logical to me to accept these cases of reccurence as being purely accidental. As examples, I would like to offer the following examples: 1. In Kannada and Korean, the word "innu" translates as "today." 2. In Chinese and Tamil, the word"nee" translates as "you". 3. In Telugu and Spanish, the word"nAranja" translates as orange. Specifically, in Telugu it does not refer to the orange colored "orange", but a similar fruit( with same shape and taste) but which looks greenish-yellow. 4. In Hebrew and Tamil, peacock becomes "Tukki" and "Togai" respectively. These are but a few wxamples of such "accidental recurrence". I have examples in Malayalam also but cannot remember them off hand. Statistically speaking, there seem to be quite a few matches between the various languages. The original explanation given for these is that these were loan words i.e. There was trade between the ancient Tamil and Hebrew Cultures with the result that the word for peacock crept into Hebrew from Tamil;likewise the word for orange crept into Spanish from Telugu. On closer examination this seems to be far fetched, it must be remembered that the excavations at Poompuhar talk about finding Greek coins, Roman coins etc but there is ( to the best of my knowledge) no mention of Hebrew writing, coins, articles etc. Likewise, given the fact that Spain itself is a Mediterrenean country, I find it difficult to believe that oranges didn't grow there originally and they had to export such fruits from India( All Mediterrenean countries are growers of citrus fruits). It must also be pointed out that this argument of loan words MAY work for trade articles, but certainly cannot account for the duplication of pronouns and other daily features i.e. to think that Korean Innu is derived from Kannada Innu( or vice-versa) is obviously wishful thinking, since "today" is a phenomenon experienced in all parts of the world. It must also be noted that there seems to be no such influx of words from the Northern part of India. It is difficult to believe that there were loan words accepted from one part of India and were rejected from another part of India when there was trade with both sides. My questions are: 1. Has this phenomenon been investigated i.e. the occurence of words with the same meaning and pronounciation in languages that are not related to each other? 2.Is it safe to assume that if two different languages have similar sounding words for a given article, then one of the languages would have neccesarily borrowed it from the other? Regards, Krishna _______________________________________________________ Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in Fri Jul 11 04:08:05 1997 From: narayana at hd1.vsnl.net.in (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 09:08:05 +0500 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031489.23782.3229990971117925677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In telugu the reflexive pronuon forms are different from the forms of tanU(= body) tanu, tAnu (=oneself) - nominative case tananu, tannu - accusative tana (=of one's ownself) - possessive tanuvu (=body) - nominative tanuvunu - accusative Sarma. At 12:05 AM 7/11/97 BST, you wrote: >In his article "Lexical Evidence for Early Contacts Between Indo-Aryan and >Dravidian" in the book "Aryan and non-Aryan in India" edited by Madhav >Deshpande and Peter Edwin Hook, 1979, Franklin Southworth discusses the >etymology of the Sanskrit word ?tanU? as quoted below. > >"The following item is perhaps the most significant of those which I present >here: > >C-10. tanU - ?body, person, self? (RV) - Ta. TAn2/tan2 - ?oneself? > (also used as reflexive pronoun) > >We do not find languages borrowing pronouns, though it does occasionally >happen. All of the cases known to me have occurred in situations of extreme >linguistic displacement, such as those typical of pidginized languages. This, >however, appears very close to such a case, although it seems difficult to >determine the direction of borrowing. The word is deeply embedded in the >structure of Dravidian, being found in almost all the languages (including >Brahui), as well as showing an alternation in the length of the stem vowels >which occurs in other pronouns (see Krishnamurti 1968). Furthermore, the same >element has been recognized by Emeneau in the terms for younger brother >(tampi) and younger sister (tankai) which are attested in early Tamil (see >note 6; also Emeneau 1953). On the Indo-aryan side, the word appears in the >RgVeda; and there is, furthermore, an Avestan tanU with the same meanings, >also used as a reflexive, as well as an Old Persian tanUs ?body, self? (The >Persian tan ?body? may possibly be the source of Hindi-Urdu tan ?body?, >rather than the Sanskrit tanU.) Though there is no clear Indo-European >etymology for this word, it is hard to imagine the Indo-Iranianists accepting >it as a loan from Dravidian. And it would be unreasonable to expect >Dravidianists to concede it as a borrowing from Indo-Aryan.4 The possibility >of classing it as an accidental resemblence seems to be precluded by the >closeness in form and meaning. One could perhaps argue for the possibility >that Indo-Iranian had a word for ?body? which accidentally resembled a >Dravidian pronoun meaning ?self?, and that the Indo-Iranian word came to be >used as a reflexive pronoun under the influence of the Dravidian word. (Note >that Sanskrit Atman- ?self? had a similar history, cf. Marathi AplA ?one?s >own?, ApaN ?you? (formal), Hindi-Urdu apnA ?one?s own?, Ap ?you?.) Even such >a possibility would however, indicate a very close relationship between >Indo-Aryan and Dravidian at a very early period." > >I propose a theory regarding the etymology of ?tanU?. In an earlier posting, >I had pointed out how Dravidian ?pAvai? meaning ?image, pupil of the eye, >doll, puppet, picture, female, goddess, a long-stemmed plant? is derived from >the root ?pA? meaning ?to extend, spread? and its relationship to Tantrism. I >think ?pAvai? from root ?pA? is the source of the IA-II ?tanU? It is a >simple translation of the Dravidian concept into IA-II if we consider that >the IA-II root ?tan? means ?to extend, spread?. Now why would one consider >this to be a borrowing from Dravidian into IA-II and not the other way >around? The concept of image as an extension of the original is the basis for the Dravidian religion as discussed in an earlier posting. The aniconic >religion of the Aryans could not have had this concept. If the meaning >?image? was the basis of the loan translation, it would be understandable to >have the meaning ?body?. If early images were made of humans or animals, the >figurine could be considered as ?body? or ?person? by metonymy. In a similar >vein, in Tamil, ?pAvai? came to mean ?females?. This means that ?tanU? in its >physical ?form? is derived from IE roots. But semantically it is Dravidian. >After ?tanU? entered the Aryan language as a loan translation, it could have >acquired the reflexive meaning as Southworth has hypothesized. > >For ?tanU? to enter RV and Avestan materials, the borrowing should most >probably have been pre-Vedic. It could have entered the language of the Dasas >of the Bronze Age civilization called "Bactria and Margiana Architectural >Complex" or BMAC before the proto-RV Aryans came there. In his book >"Deciphering the Indus Script? (p.149-152), Asko Parpola says, "It seems >that the Proto-Indo-Aryans came into being around the eighteenth century BC, >during the transition between BMAC I and II, when two distinct, successive >Aryan tribes seem to have fused together, with a concomitant restructuring of >religion. A parallel process was the later amalgamation of the >Proto-Indo-Aryans of Central Asia and of Proto-Iranians in Zarathustra?s >reform, which reinstituted Ahura<*Asurain place of Indra and other daEvas. > .It has also recently become clear that, for example, the compartmented >metal seals of Bactria go back to the traditions of the Early Harappan period >in Baluchistan The only possible connection of the BMAC I or the Hissar >IIIb horizon with the Dasas would be for a small wave of Aryan-speaking >nomads to have taken over the southern Central asia around 200BC and totally >adopted the local culture, yet retained their own language .After their >assumed conquest of the Dasa forts in Margiana and Bactria around 1700 BC >(which may have taken place more peacefully than the texts suggest), the >Sauma Aryans too would have largely adopted the earler local culture, thereby >transforming the cult of the Asura-worshipping Dasas into the >pre-Zarathustran Daiva cult (involving the *Sauma drink). Immediately after >this second cultural fusion had taken place, one group of the resulting >acculturated Proto-Indo-Aryans branched westwards to Gurgan, and from there >to northern Syria, becoming the rulers of the Mitanni kingdom, while another >faction continued (at least partly via Seistan) eastwards to Swat, founding >there the Proto-Rgvedic (=Proto-Dardic) culture of the Gandhara Grave Culture >(Ghalegay IV period) (fig.8.24b)." > >When the Dasas retained their language but totally adopted the local culture, >the chances of their loan-translating a non-native word ?pAvai? as ?tanU? >could be very high indeed. Then the word could have entered the vocabulary of >the Proto-Indo-Aryans and then Proto-Iranians as these different groups >interacted with each other. > >This seems to suggest that the origin of Tantra in its basic aspects was >clearly pre-Vedic. > >Any comments would be appreciated. > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > > > > > From fo4a004 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de Fri Jul 11 09:10:03 1997 From: fo4a004 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Burkhard Quessel) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 11:10:03 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit OCR Message-ID: <161227031496.23782.3541469660693029307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Dargie wrote: > > In any case, does anyone know of an OCR system that is accurate for roman > transliteration. Has anyone tried to input text in this way? Most of the OCR programmes using the Omnifont approach (like Omnipage) can - to a certain extent - also be trained for new characters. But try Finereader Professional by Bitsoft. It can be trained to read all kinds of characters (I even had good results with Tibetan print type) and it seems to be better than the much more expensive Optopus. There is a try&buy version available at the Bitsoft site (http://www.bitsoft.ru) regards Burkhard -- Burkhard Quessel Institute for India and Tibet, Hamburg University Neue Rabenstr.3, D-20354 Hamburg, Germany phone: +49-40-41236268, fax: +49-40-41236267 e-mail: quessel at rrz.uni-hamburg.de From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri Jul 11 16:17:14 1997 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 11:17:14 -0500 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031501.23782.7761093316282316146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The potential for genetic fallacy on this topic, rightly noted by S. Krishna, in associating causality of development from one language to another based simply upon accidence of sound and meaning (e.g. with Innu/today in Kannada and Korean) is quite prevalent. Nonetheless, the instinct of a researcher to find patterns makes this a troublesomely tempting avenue. It would be helpful to hear more on this methodological issue from linguists who study these things on a regular basis. As regards tanuu, a topic in which I have great interest already, the Dravidian issue is quite problematic. It involves a viscious circle of proving priority of one language to another by assuming priority of one instance of the word to another. The dust has yet to settle on this, to my knowledge (and there is quite a cloud of it right now at vedavid.org and on my desk as I write my study of the developing terminology of the self in Early Vedic . . . ) S. Krishna asks a question which, I think, is being answered, however: -------- > It must also be noted that there seems to be no such influx of words >from the Northern part of India. It is difficult to believe that there >were loan words accepted from one part of India and were rejected from >another part of India when there was trade with both sides. -------- One finds throughout the literature of the Vedas frequent linguistic territoriality and hegemony hwerein Yaaj~navalkya or others speak derisively of the "so-and-so's" who say or do something wrongly--often the Kuru-pa~ncala brahmins are favorite targets of this. It would seem that, at least to the perspective of the redactors of the Vedas, there was indeed a conscious effort to accept or reject ways of speaking. My own research shows that the advent in the later RV of aatman and puruSa marked also the beginning of the end for the use of tanuu in this capacity in the Middle Vedic period of Mantra Language and SaMhitaa prose. Along these lines, one might also consult Deshpande's study of homogeneity with PaaNini (I don't have the bookin front of me to cite), or Witzel's "Tracing the Vedic Dialects" (1989) which lists many verses giving preclusions of speech variances, as well as a detailed analysis of regional variances which can be traced upon these and other linguistic lines. Further, one should note Cardona's study of accent which gives evidence of conscious structuring of acceptable speech viz. accent (here from a previous posting I made on the matter): ---- >Cardona notes in his study of the bhaaSika accentuation system >(Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik, Band 18, 1993), and Bronkhorst >correlates somewhat in 1982, Heft 8/9 (pp. 77 ff), efforts were made to >consciously systematize a growing variance in systems of accentuation >(e.g., and this may be a surprise still to some, ShB marks anudaatta, not >udaatta b/c the many variances of treatment of jatyasvarita &c. had >become problematic in the eyes of some). ---- I welcome any further insights regarding tanuu, and especially on the Dravidian relation issue. A political hotbed it remains in some circles and perhaps that will forever cloud academic inquiry into such a relation--if any exists. jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 01:12:32 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 18:12:32 -0700 Subject: Krsna: contested narratives. Message-ID: <161227031505.23782.13520397511820177893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am looking for renditions of the K.r.s.na story from outside >Puranic/Epic/Vaishnava literature (ie from Buddhist, Jain, Shaivite or any >other sources). >Can anyone kindly assist me with any references? > >Thanks. Edwin Bryant I suddenly remembered something that I saw/read about a long time a long time ago: There is a strong Krishna tradition that originated/ still alive in Bali in Indonesia. There are plays/dance-dramas in this part of the world which use the Krishna theme. I remember seeing a dance drama in which there was a reference to the "burial ground" of Krishna( yes, that was no typo, the correct word is "burial ground" i.e. this has something to do with Moslem influence to the best of my belief). The plot of the drama ran like this: Krishnas grandchildren plan to visit his "grave". In order to do that, they need to go past the burial ground where the the graves of Yama and Yami are situated(Yama and Yami, according to this story are incestuous twins). The spirits of Yama and Yami enter the bodies of the grandchildren of Krishna. The rest of the dance drama refers to the moral degeneration of the grandchildren of Krishna and the eventual destruction of his family and how all efforts to save them from destruction came to nought. I realise that this topic/depiction would provoke the wrath of many an orthodox Hindu, but what I found interesting was the fact that 1. In Hindu texts, there are references to twins called Yama and Yami, and according to A.L.Basham, they did have an incestous relationship. 2. There is a very general resemblance between the destruction of the Yadava race( due to indolence,indulgence and inebriation;I am not sure as to what other vices they exactly indulged in) and the story of the destruction of the grandchildren of Krishna in the Indonesian story that I am refering to. Of course, there is no text in Hinduism that refers to this particular incident in the sequence/style in which it was depicted by the Indonesian troupe. On the other hand, the differences between the broad outlines of the corresponding stories in India and Indonesia are: 1. The Indonesian story talks about the death of Krishna as occuring prior to the destruction of the Yadava race( there is a reference to his grave); whereas according to the Indian version Krishna was killed at the same time/shortly after the Yadava race indulged in an orgy of self-destruction. 2. As pointed out earlier, the concept of "burial ground" is borrowed ( most probably)from Islam, which is plausible, considering that Indonesia has been Moslem dominated from the 15th century, atleast from the 15th century. The kingdom in which this occurs is refered to as "Boma", whereas in the Indian version, all the events are centred around Dwaraka. I do remember that the accompanying orchestra was called the "Gammelan" though I am not sure as to what the dance drama was called. If my memory serves me correctly, it was called "Nyidrasamhastara". Hope this helps, Krishna _______________________________________________________ Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat Jul 12 01:50:54 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 18:50:54 -0700 Subject: White teeth Message-ID: <161227031507.23782.742813248633158390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Joel Tatelman, P. K. Manansala, and Georg v. Simson for their replies and references. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat Jul 12 01:52:58 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 18:52:58 -0700 Subject: Orange: was Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031508.23782.7272861526943928622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:41 PM 7/11/97 BST, S. Krishna wrote: >3. In Telugu and Spanish, the word"nAranja" translates as orange. >Specifically, in Telugu it does not refer to the orange colored >"orange", but a similar fruit( with same shape and taste) but which >looks greenish-yellow. >;likewise the word for orange crept into Spanish from >Telugu. On closer examination this seems to be far fetched, it must be > >Likewise, given the fact >that Spain itself is a Mediterrenean country, I find it difficult to >believe that oranges didn't grow there originally and they had to export >such fruits from India( All Mediterrenean countries are growers of >citrus fruits). This seems to be the accepted etymology of naranja: Spanish naranja < Arabic naaranj < Persian naarang < Sanskrit naaranga English orange came through a similar route < Old French orange < Arabic naaranj, etc. The question is, where does Skt. naaranga come from? MW compares it to naaga-ranga; and Gomez de Silva (in his Spanish etymological dictionary) suggests it could possibly come from the Tamil word naru, fragrant. Any thoughts? Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From bpj at netg.se Fri Jul 11 18:18:58 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 20:18:58 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit OCR Message-ID: <161227031503.23782.12156906783138410257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:51 7.7.1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >At 07:48 7.07.97 BST, you wrote: >>I think I am safe in assuming that no-one has yet developed an optical >>character recognition (OCR) system for the devanagari script. >> >>I know that DHH Ingalls and his son had worked on the problem some 20 years >>ago, but I have not heard any more about it. >> >>In any case, does anyone know of an OCR system that is accurate for roman >>transliteration. Has anyone tried to input text in this way? > >I remember when I was in Tuebingen some years ago (1992 i think) I was told >that they had managed to "teach" the OCR program Optopus (spelling correct) >to scan devanagari. I had been fairly difficult, and there had been rather a >lot of errors. But in principle, Optopus could be taught to recognize any >pattern as a letter or a combination of lettes. I used it to scan a >romanized Sanskrit text and taught it to give cerebral t's, d's etc. as .t, >d etc. It worked reasonable well. I have been told that OmniPage professional for the Macintosh can be 'trained' to convert practically anything to any desired character or string of characters. Since there are often problems with "i" versus "l" in OCR I imagine the same would apply to e.g. ".h" versus "b". As far as Devanagari is concerned the nature of the script, where long strings of characters are 'amalgamated' by the head-stroke there would probably be some problem, unless the program could be taught to disregard the headstroke! From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sat Jul 12 05:45:06 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 22:45:06 -0700 Subject: Patanjali Carita of Ramabhadra Diksita Message-ID: <161227031512.23782.6140261944995210000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Deshpande once mentioned this 17th century work in relation to a query on Patanjali. I have two questions about this work. 1. Has it been published? 2. Does the poem refer to the advaitins, Gaudapada, Govinda, and Sankara? Vidyasankar From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Jul 12 05:11:33 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 01:11:33 -0400 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031510.23782.4743838390328892585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-07-11 20:28:13 EDT, mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) writes: << S.Palaniappan writes: >Though there is no clear Indo-Europeanetymology for this word, it is >hard to imagine the Indo-Iranianists acceptingit as a loan from >Dravidian. And it would be unreasonable to expect Dravidianists to >concede it as a borrowing from Indo-Aryan. The possibility >of classing it as an accidental resemblence seems to be precluded by >thecloseness in form and meaning. ----------------------------- --------------------------------- >> For the sake of record, it is Southworth's statement I was quoting. It was not my own. As for some of the other points, there have been other words borrowed from north India. I think 'jungle' is from Hindi. I am sure there are other words. I think there is a book which lists all the words like this. I have forgotten the title. As for 'nAranja' , one source where you might find a discussion on this is Caldwell's A comparative grammar of Dravidian languages. A more recent discussion on plants and grains is in the same book which has Southworth's article. I do not remember the author. I think it was Colin P. Masica. Southworth also discusses other words related to animals, plants etc. As for Hebrew tuki, I think there is a discussion of that in a book on Jews of Kerala by A. N. Parasuraman. I think the conclusion was not based on Indian sources but Hebrew sources where they describe importing of materials from other countries for building the temple in Jerusalem. I agree that there is always a possibility of chance resemblance. There is also cases where onomatopoea causes resemblance. There are also words like ma, amma, which are widely prevalent. But in the present case, my theory is based on semantic similarity in a number of related words which militates against chance. For instance, Tamil/Dravidian Sanskrit/Indo-Aryan ------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- pA - root meaning 'to extend' etc. tan- root meaning 'to extend' pA/pan2uval - warp tantu/tantra - warp pA/pan2uval - text tantra - text pAvai - figurine, female, goddess tanu - body, person, used in Tantric worship Finally, today I found the use of 'tanu' to describe the stretching/spreading of dUrvA grass in Yajur Veda while the stem of the same grass (called 'aRukai' in Tamil) is called 'pAvai' derived from 'pA' . For comparison, I am giving below what I had mentioned earlier in my posting regarding the 'aRukai' grass as well as Yajur Vedic material/translation/discussion of Griffith regarding dUrva grass. A significant thing about ?pAvai? in its connection with ?aRukai? is that as a plant, ?aRukai? is known for its nature to extend as a creeper, take root, again extend in different directions and take root, and so on. Thus, ?aRukai? which is used in many rituals, is a fitting model to describe the ?mobility? and ?localization? aspects of Tamil/Dravidian religion as well as the spreading of cults. The botanical name for ?aRukai? is Cynodon dactylon (DED 1176) which in Sanskrit is called ?dUrvA? (See Manfred Mayrhofer?s Kurzgefasstes etymologissches Worterbuch des Altindischen). Not surprisingly, the spreading nature of the ?dUrvA? grass is described in Yajur Veda?s Vajasaneyi saMhita (XIII.20-21) in Griffith?s translation as follows. "kANDAtkANDAtprarohantI paruSaHparuSaspari | evA no dUrVe pra tanu sahasreNa zatena || Upspringing from thine every joint, upspringing from each knot of thine, Thus with a thousand, dUrvA! With a hundred do thou stretch us out. On the porus brick he lays a dUrvA brick, that is dUrvA or dUb grass, with roots and tops, to form a layer. This creeping grass spreads rapidly, throwing out perpetually new branchlets. He recites two texts. Do thou stretch us out: or, Lengthen out our line (of descendants) yA zatena pratanoSi sahasreNa virohasi | tasyAste devISTake vidhema haviSA vayam || Thou, spreading with a hundred, thou that branchest with a thousand shoots, - Thee, such, with our oblation will we worship, O celestial Brick." Thus both Dravidian and IA see the same ??extending/stretching? feature in the aRukai/dUrvA grass. What we see in Dravidian is a noun ?pAvai? derived from the verbal root ?pA?. In IA, we see the verb ?tanu? derived from the root ?tan?. These are two many coincidences to be considered as accidental similarities. (As Gardner said, I see a pattern.) There is a common world view here but represented in two different languages. The root pA gives rise to the meaning 'metre' and 'song' and from that is derived the word 'pATu', cognates of which are found in all the Dravidian groups of languages. This means the root itself can be traced to the proto-Dravidian stage. Incidentally, it was during this research, I discovered (or rediscovered) the correct meaning of the word 'pan2uval' as 'warp' in some contexts in CT. Even Tamil Lexicon failed to identify it correctly. Only last month, when I had an opportunity to check the nighantu 'tivAkaram' of 8/9th century CE, I found that explicitly equated 'pan2uval' and 'tantu'. Because, the compilers of the Lexicon glossed the word as 'toused cotton' or simply as 'thread', many modern commentators erroneously interpreted some CT poems. At least in that aspect, my recognition of the common world view helped in the understanding of a Tamil term. My insight was triggered by my reading of a translation of a RV hymn. In the same fashion, I think a better understanding will result on the Sanskrit side regarding 'tanu' also. However, I am fully aware of the politics or socio-linguistic attitudes of several scholars. And it is for the objective persons to decide which is logical and which is not. After all, remember India's motto is 'Truth alone will triumph' !. Regards S. Palaniappan From mrabe at artic.edu Sat Jul 12 10:35:10 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 05:35:10 -0500 Subject: Problem with my e-mail Message-ID: <161227031513.23782.5463881358135401336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear list members, > >Yesterday I posted two items to the list. They were "Re: How a buck/stag >could have become a lion!" and "Etymology of 'tanU'". After I posted the >items, I had some e-mail problems which prevented me from getting any e-mail. >So, if any of you responded to those postings, I would appreciate if you >could re-send them directly to me. Thanks. > >S. Palaniappan Dear Mr. Palaniappan, Here is a copy of my response to your welcome posting on the first item: BTW, you name always brings back fond memories of my childhood in the Palani hills! Best regards, Michael ************ In response to two points made yesterday by Mr. Palaniappan: Given the previous disclosures about Danielou's mistranslations of the Kamasutra, I'd not be surprised to learn of equally egregious errors in his CilappatikAram. However, I must say, (admittedly before tracking down a copy of Parthasarathy's translation--thank you for the suggestion) that your construal of CilappatikAram12:10.1-4) is counter intuitive. You propose the following: >cankamuJ cakkaramum tAmaraik kaiyEnti >ceGkaN arimAn2 cin2aviTaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.10.1-4) >kaGkai muTikkaNinta kaNNutalOn2 pAkattu >maGkai uruvAy maRaiyEtta vEniRpAy ... >This is translated as "You stood on the lion with red eyes and the angry bull". > This means unlike the lines (12.8.2) and (12.9.2), which describe only one > animal vehicle each, this describes two vehicles. However, isn't it the case that the two animals appear beneath Durga/Korravai for different reasons, one as vehicle and the other as victim? As such this reasoning is in line with Dominique Thillaud's observation, as expressed on Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:47:37 BST: _From my point of view, that's not a problem. mRga and vyAghra (or simha) are > strongly linked as the couple prey/predator (MBh III,11,24; III,200,14 and > tens of others) and the hunter can be identified with both (see the greek myth > of Akteon): obviously mRgahan = vyAghra, but, all over the world, the hunting > ideology contains an identification with the prey (magical ?)._ Specifically, therefore, I question your attribution of the adjective "angry" to the "bull", which should already be dead by the time Durga stands upon its severed head. The latter motif was the subject of my article on the iconography of this goddess as it is found primarily in Tamilnadu. Secondly, there seems to be an implicit contradiction between your apparent rejection of my allusion to lion-riding Ishtar as a precedent, but acceptance of J.N. Banerjea's reference to the lion-riding goddess Nanaia (or simply_Nana_) on Kushana coins. Basically, these are variant names of the same West Asian goddess, or goddess-type (with warlike nature, riding a lion) and in proof of this, I quote John Rosenfield, _The Dynastic Arts of the Kushanas_ (Berkeley: University of California Press, l967), p 85: __The cult of Innana-Ishtar-Astarte persisted into the Parthian period,...At Dura-Europus there was a vast temple complex, its early phases datable roughly to the third and second centuries B.C. In inscriptions there, the deity was called both Nanaia and Artemis, as she was in classical literary sources__ Which brings me back to Mr. Thillaud, the modest _etc._ participant in this thread, who continued in that posting quoted above: __The two animals of the greek Huntress Artemis are the deer and the bear...This (doesn't) presume DurgA to be an eurindian Goddess because the Wild Beast's Lady (correct ? Greek: PotniA ThErOn, French: Dame des Fauves) is well known in many civilizations. But that can explain why, linked with DurgA, stags and lions are structurally the same.__ Again, to conclude, and _viva le difference_, I see the Tamil Korravai as mounted on a deer (not hunting it per se, as does Artemis?), while the CilappatikAram's poet and roughly contemporary Pallava sculptors are acutely aware that elsewhere the same goddess rides a lion. Thank you, Mr. Palaniappan, for reviving this thread, and for the wonderful Tamil glosses. Michael Rabe From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 14:40:20 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 07:40:20 -0700 Subject: Orange: was Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031521.23782.1445648464498374115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody have any idea of how and when orange cultivation started in what is now Spain? Or for that matter was there any trade between India and Spain? I do know that the Moors had some kind of a trade connection in the 12th century( from what I remember) but is there any evidence of the non-existence of orange trees in Spain before that? If these fruits were really taken from India to Spain, then how did they store them in those days when they had no cold-storage( put them in ice-sacks wouldn't have helped since the ice would have melted in the hot tropical weather.)Of course, I am not sure if they just took the seeds with them. If there is any evidence of taking other citrus fruits from India onto Spain? I find it very difficult to believe that there were no citrus fruits in Spain( or that these had to be brought from India). If I am not wrong, there are references to such fruits both in Classical Greek and Roman cultures.... Can anybody give me an practical explanation of how these fruits were taken from India to Spain? Skeptically Krishna > >This seems to be the accepted etymology of naranja: > >Spanish naranja < Arabic naaranj < Persian naarang < Sanskrit naaranga > >English orange came through a similar route < Old French orange < Arabic >naaranj, etc. > >The question is, where does Skt. naaranga come from? MW compares it to >naaga-ranga; and Gomez de Silva (in his Spanish etymological dictionary) >suggests it could possibly come from the Tamil word naru, fragrant. Any >thoughts? > > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >University of California, Berkeley > > > _______________________________________________________ Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 15:02:50 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 08:02:50 -0700 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031523.23782.6602864454514451376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Palaniappan writes: >As for some of the other points, there have been other words borrowed fro= >m >north India. I think 'jungle' is from Hindi. I am sure there are other wo -------------------------------- >rds. >I think there is a book which lists all the words like this. I have forgo= >tten >the title. > Please don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to nitpick or find fault. It is simply that I am interested in a clearer explanation of some of these derivations and the linking of these derivations to actual historical events. It must be remembered that mere verbal feats can result in incorrect conclusions if not backed up by historical facts. As an example, you have : "Napoleon" can be derived from "Nripa-Simha"( Nripa became Napo and Simha is lion/leon). It must be remembered that names like Nripasimha were common among ancient Indian royalty. This theory sounds perfect until one realises that Napoleon had nothing to do with India in his whole life and so, why would he look to India for inspiration when he picked a name? I would also like to point out that there were borrowings/lendings etc in TWO DIFFERENT HISTORICAL STAGES. The first is the classical period i.e. in the 5th and 6th centuries A.D. This is the period that we have in mind when naarangam-naaranga-naaranja is being discussed. This is also the period that we have in mind when we discuss tukki-togai etc. It is because of the fallacy between this historical stage and the Spanish Moor interaction with India ( 12th century or later)I believe that the derivation of Sp. naranja from any of the Indian languages is not that convincing. The second stage of borrowing of Indian words into European languages is much later; we are talking about the 17th/18th century A.D. when the Westerners came to India to stay, as opposed to trade. If one were to examine the history of this period, one would discover any number of words being borrowed into the European languages from the Indian languages. The example of "jungle" from Hindi belongs to this period. Likewise, I've been told that the word "loot" comes from Hindi "lootna" and had soemthing to do with the 1857 war.(I myself haven't confirmed this). Likewise, the word "Khidmautgaur" was borrowed from Urdu "Khidmat". "Bungalow" also belongs to this category. From the South Indian languages, we have "curry" ( from Tamil/Malayalam "Kari", "Mulligtawny" soup ( from Tamil "Mizhakku taNNIr"), "catamaran"(from Tamil),"bandicoot"( from Telugu pandi kokku) etc etc. It is very important to keep these historical periods in mind when one examines borrowed words from one culture onto another. Krishna _______________________________________________________ Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com From mrabe at artic.edu Sat Jul 12 13:19:34 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 08:19:34 -0500 Subject: Krsna: contested narratives. Message-ID: <161227031517.23782.2049398646781052563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>I am looking for renditions of the K.r.s.na story from outside >>Puranic/Epic/Vaishnava literature (ie from Buddhist, Jain, Shaivite or >any >>other sources). >>Can anyone kindly assist me with any references? >> >>Thanks. Edwin Bryant > > I suddenly remembered something that I saw/read about a long time a >long time ago: There is a strong Krishna tradition that originated/ >still alive in Bali in Indonesia. The above discussion suddenly reminds me too that mention way made of a Buddhist jataka variant on some facet of Krishna's life. Checking my HD memory, this is all I can recover: Jim Hartzell , in 1995 a graduate student at Columbia university, was the source of this information, but I never followed up to acquire the actual citation. Michael Rabe From mrabe at artic.edu Sat Jul 12 13:38:14 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 08:38:14 -0500 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031518.23782.4075408333534993424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reponse to Palaniappan's posting of Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:05:11 BST: Thank you for these clarifications. Your point is well taken about Parthasarthy not having the benefit of this list! But if you'll indulge me a bit further, could you reiterate the actual Mahabharata chapter/verse that associate Ziva with lions? On the iconographic face of things, this seems improbable, though infinitely greater diversity of motifs appear in literary contexts, naturally, than ever make it into standard sculptural iconography (wherein Ziva is never independently associated with a lion, so far as I know.) >This is perfectly acceptable when we consider that the bull is the vehicle of >Ziva. When in the next line ILanko says, "you stood in the portion/half of >the body of the one with the eye-in the forehead, who has worn the Ganges in >his hair', it is very possible that both the vehicles of Ziva are attributed >to KoRRavai. While it is widely known that Ziva rides a bull, the references >I have cited earlier show that Ziva is also associated with the lion. So the >poet is not necessarily using one animal as a vehicle and another as victim. >Both are vehicles transferred from Ziva. By the way, do you of Alf Hiltebeitel's article, "The Indus Valley 'Proto-Siva', Reexamined through Reflections on the Goddess, the Buffalo, and the Symbolism of Va-hanas." Anthropos 73:5-6 (1978):767-97? I admit to being persuaded by the basic typologic argument, wherein great cats are identified with goddesses, and bulls with male (often sacrificed) gods. This _paradigm_ can be traced back twice as far back into prehistory as Ishtar's Sumer--to Catal Huyuk in Turkey (7th millenium B.C.E), where visual evidence surives showing stag-hunters invoking the aid of a leopard goddess! Regards, Michael From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Sat Jul 12 16:43:00 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 08:43:00 -0800 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031525.23782.9625914126772708092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-11 20:28:13 EDT, mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S > Krishna) writes: > But in the present case, my theory is based on semantic similarity in a > number of related words which militates against chance. For instance, > > Tamil/Dravidian Sanskrit/Indo-Aryan > ------------------------------------------ > ----------------------------------------- > pA - root meaning 'to extend' etc. tan- root meaning 'to extend' > pA/pan2uval - warp tantu/tantra - warp > pA/pan2uval - text tantra - text > pAvai - figurine, female, goddess tanu - body, person, used in Tantric > worship > I agree that the above method of comparison is the best way to rule out chance resemblance. If you have enough semantic groups like this with basic vocabulary it would also tend to rule out mass borrowing. The most important comparisons are those of grammatical particles like prefixes and suffixes, which are very rarely borrowed. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Jul 12 12:55:19 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 08:55:19 -0400 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031515.23782.9309713402727747216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-07-12 07:58:28 EDT, you write: << >cankamuJ cakkaramum tAmaraik kaiyEnti >ceGkaN arimAn2 cin2aviTaimEl nin2RAyAl (12.10.1-4) >kaGkai muTikkaNinta kaNNutalOn2 pAkattu >maGkai uruvAy maRaiyEtta vEniRpAy .. >This is translated as "You stood on the lion with red eyes and the angry bull". > This means unlike the lines (12.8.2) and (12.9.2), which describe only one > animal vehicle each, this describes two vehicles. >> I too thought long and hard about this apparent discrepancy. In fact in one of my earlier postings in which I had translated this section on my own, I chose only the bull. This is because 'viTai' is not applicable to male lion at all. (In fact, in the Aycciyar Kuravai section, you can see 'viTai' being used to refer to the bull.) I interpreted 'mAn2' as an animal in general which gave me 'the angry bull which is the animal with red eyes with lines' or 'the angry bull which is the animal with red eyes and enemy (to evil? demon?)'. However, after your posting of Danielou's translation, I went back and examined the usage of 'mAn2'. It became clear that 'mAn2' cannot be used to refer to domesticated cattle. (Before that I had even prepared a posting with two possible interpretations- one with one animal and one with two.) In fact, there are instances they are contrasted from one another as 'An2in2am' and 'mAn2inam'. That leaves the only possibility of having to deal with two animals. One cannot avoid that. That means grammatically one has to consider it as 'ummait tokai' in Tamil where the listing suffix 'um' is left out. This is perfectly acceptable when we consider that the bull is the vehicle of Ziva. When in the next line ILanko says, "you stood in the portion/half of the body of the one with the eye-in the forehead, who has worn the Ganges in his hair', it is very possible that both the vehicles of Ziva are attributed to KoRRavai. While it is widely known that Ziva rides a bull, the references I have cited earlier show that Ziva is also associated with the lion. So the poet is not necessarily using one animal as a vehicle and another as victim. Both are vehicles transferred from Ziva. As for my apparent inconsistency, I am sorry I did not make myself clear. What I was trying to convey was this. I did not see a direct line from Ishtar through Indus all the way to the KushANa sculptures as implied by some others, at least with the evidence we have now. What I saw was a roundabout way in which lion enters India as a vehicle late only during the KushANa times. The blackbuck was probably a vehicle in north India also given the importance of black antelope in Sanskrit texts ritually (even defining Aryavarta as the place where the black antelope roams) and mythologically as discussed by Stella Kramrisch in one of her books dealing with Ziva. I do not have the reference here. As for Parthasarathy, he also sees only lion inthe line under discussion. But then, he did not have the benefit of participating in this list. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Jul 12 14:13:56 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 10:13:56 -0400 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031520.23782.17777954771306463644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think an art historian like Michael Rabe can do Tamil literary history a big favor by dating CilappatikAram from the iconographic descriptions discussed in this thread. The dating methodology till now based on the GajabAhu synchronism, and Satakarni has not been very satisfactory. My guess is that there was only a short time window when the bull was associated with DurgA before she is fimly seated on the lion during Guptan times. I think Ilanko must have composed his epic during that period. The Azes coin discussed earlier, could help in that regard. There may be other evidence an art historian would know. Regards S. Palaniappan From jai at flex.com Sat Jul 12 21:18:13 1997 From: jai at flex.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 11:18:13 -1000 Subject: Free Font-Based Software Available Message-ID: <161227031538.23782.12583573452381567386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Free font-based software is available at the redifindia site. The following excerpts are from http://www.redifindia.com/computer/jul/03harsh.htm Write English, read Gujarati by Salil Murthy in Mumbai [...] Harsh Kumar, chief manager, information technology, Konkan Railways, has developed software that can receive vernacular words typed in English and convert them to the appropriate language in the appropriate script. And he's giving it away, free. Says Kumar "If you've ever tried to use a Hindi keyboard you would know just how difficult it is. Even existing software like the one developed by C-DAC requires you to put a sticker on your keyboard, so in effect you are using two different keyboards. 'Shusha' eliminates all that." "I have redefined the keyboard. Shusha is a font-based software and converts whatever you type into the script of the language of your choice," continues Kumar. "So far I have covered the scripts of Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati (all Devanagari script) and Punjabi (Gurumukhi script). I am currently working on Bengali, which should be out in about 15 days, and then I begin work on Oriya. The South Indian language scripts are a little more complicated but I will be getting to them soon." The 41-year-old IT professional, with a masters degree from the University of Humberside, UK, is, however, determined not to go commercial. "I do not want to make this a commercial venture. Once it is, the price does not stop going up. Piracy, greed I don't want to contend with these ills." [...] The software can be used on any Windows platform and comes complete with 'read_me' files and key maps. The programme can also be used to create and host Web pages in Indian languages. "For an average first-time user it should take 10 minutes to get a hang of the keys. After that he can takeoff," claims Kumar. [...] End of Excerpts Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti Copyright (C) 1997 Mantra Corporation. All Rights Reserved. From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Sat Jul 12 20:01:18 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 12:01:18 -0800 Subject: Patanjali Carita of Ramabhadra Diksita Message-ID: <161227031533.23782.1509691828038880970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar wrote: >Prof. Deshpande once mentioned this 17th century work in relation to a >query on Patanjali. I have two questions about this work. > >1. Has it been published? >2. Does the poem refer to the advaitins, Gaudapada, Govinda, and Sankara? Pata;njali-carita has been published in the Kaavya-maalaa Series of the Nirnaya-sagara Press at least twice. Recently, there has been a reprint of the whole series (from Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi?),I understand. I have not seen all the vols. I have a photocopy of the second Nirnaya-sagara edn, Kaavya-maalaa no. 51, printed in 1934. The text does talk about Gaudapada, Govinda, and Sankara toward its conclusion. I have discussed the main narrative of the text in the unpublished fourth installment of my series of articles titled "Interpreting Vaakyapadiiya 2.486 historically." From Ngilcach at aol.com Sat Jul 12 16:17:37 1997 From: Ngilcach at aol.com (Ngilcach at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 12:17:37 -0400 Subject: new & filled w/Qs Message-ID: <161227031529.23782.8147969871006729726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have recently signed on this list. My name is Valarie Wisniewski. I have been practicing Hatha Yoga for 27 years, teaching for 14. I have always had a borderline interest in Hinduism, one that has increased in the last 4-5 years. I have manner books on the subject from a wide range of authors. However, I still have some "grey areas". Whether this is due to my lack of complete understanding or that these topics have been sufficiently explained in the works I own is a moot point. One though that I am hoping that the scholarly members of this list may aid me with. For example: 1) What is the main linguistic difference between Tamil, Dravidian, Sanskrit, Hindi, Parsi, Indo-Aryan, etc? Which is older? Are not the majority of texts written in Sanskrit? Is Sanskrit spoken? Which advisable would you suggest someone learn? 2) I have A. Danielou's "The Myths & Gods of India", I also have read of late that there are some descrepencies in some works by this author. Can I rely on the information in the above mentioned work? 3) I recently attended a puja at the Krisna Temple in Atlanta, GA. I had a most enjoyable time. I was treated warmly by all present. My question is: Is it customary in Hindu Temples to bow, touching the head to the floor when entering & exiting? I have recently located the Hindu Temple in Atlanta. Found their website at: http://www.hindunet.org/ I very much want to plan a trip (it is a 1 hr drive). I would also like to thank sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar) for uploaded the entire text of his book "Ancient India's Contribution to the World's Culture". This is a remarkably generous gesture. Thank you so very much. ____________________________________ Valarie From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Jul 12 21:04:54 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 17:04:54 -0400 Subject: Patanjali Carita of Ramabhadra Diksita Message-ID: <161227031536.23782.6041961416200892079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The text was published in the Kavyamala series from the Nirnayasagara Press, and I have an old copy of it. I will look up for the references. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > > Prof. Deshpande once mentioned this 17th century work in relation to a > query on Patanjali. I have two questions about this work. > > 1. Has it been published? > 2. Does the poem refer to the advaitins, Gaudapada, Govinda, and Sankara? > > > Vidyasankar > > > From jacob.baltuch at euronet.be Sat Jul 12 16:11:52 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at euronet.be (jacob.baltuch at euronet.be) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 18:11:52 +0200 Subject: Oranges Message-ID: <161227031527.23782.13289830429019738385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > If there is any evidence of taking other citrus fruits from India onto >Spain? > I find it very difficult to believe that there were no citrus fruits >in Spain( or that these had to be brought from India). Believe it. The center of origin of the wild members of genus Citrus is an area comprising India, China, New Guinea et Polynesia. Cultivation in the Mediterranean area was started only after the Arab expansion. I was told the eastern origin of the plants was recorded for example in such words as Dutch "sinaasappel" (apple of China? why isn't it "chinaasappel"?) From pf at cix.co.uk Sat Jul 12 17:33:00 1997 From: pf at cix.co.uk (pf at cix.co.uk) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 18:33:00 +0100 Subject: address of Piotr Balcerowic Message-ID: <161227031531.23782.3301053332790133502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for the address of Piotr Balcerowic. Any suggestions are welcome. Peter Flugel From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Jul 13 05:43:06 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 97 01:43:06 -0400 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031540.23782.7311366207674741577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-07-12 14:05:33 EDT, you write: << But if you'll indulge me a bit further, could you reiterate the actual Mahabharata chapter/verse that associate Ziva with lions? On the iconographic face of things, this seems improbable, though infinitely greater diversity of motifs appear in literary contexts, naturally, than ever make it into standard sculptural iconography (wherein Ziva is never independently associated with a lion, so far as I know.) >> N. P. Joshi in his article "Early forms of Ziva" in "Discourses on Ziva" edited by Michael W. Meister, 1981 says the following. "The lion is generally taken as the mount of PArvatI but sometimes Ziva, too, has been associated with it in sculptures of the KuSANa age. Four sculptures of this type are from MathurA. Two instances are seen on adjacent sides of a single pillar from MUsAnagar, Kanpur District, Uttar Pradesh (Pl. 31).59a Each side of this pillar has three panels; the lower two show amorous couples while the uppermost panels show, first, an ithyphallic Ziva with a vase in his left hand and the right hand in abhaya. He stands between a lion (looking toward its master) and a short, pot-bellied gaNa. The adjacent panel shows Ziva in his CaturvyUha form. Below Ziva's thronethere appears a lion in repose. In a third instance (Government Museum, Mathura no. 12.214), only the lower portion of the image is preserved: this has a short-legged gaNa standing to the right of the main figure, while the reverse shows a large, seated lion. V. S. Agrawala identified this image as Ziva on the basis of its coming from mAT, a site of the KuSANa "devakula", and also because that same site has yielded an image of PArvatI with a lion near her feet (Government Museum, Mathura, no. 12.214A).59b My final example is a liGga from CaumA (Pl. 40) in Agra District, still in situ.60 Near the base of the liGga is a seated lion, a gaNa, a mutilated female face, and a water vase with a high neck. These four sculptures point to the fact of a lion and a gaNa appearing together. This convention apparently lingered for a long time. KAlidAsa uses it in his RaghuvaMza. The lion, pleased with king DilIpa, who tried to save the cow NandinI even at the cost of his own life, reveals himself and says, "know me to be the gaNa Kumbhodara (potbellied), a friend of Nikumbha, who is an attendant of ASTamUrti (Ziva) and whose back is purified by the sacred feet of Ziva before he rides the bull as white as KailAsa."61 Subsequent verse clearly mention a potbellied gaNa assuming the form of the lion at the command of Ziva to protect the devadAru trees from the wild elephants, and Ziva using his back as a footstool in order to mount the bull. In light of these verses, the appearance of the potbellied gaNa and a lion in association with Ziva does not seem merely to be a sculptor's fancy; rather it suggests an ancient tradition. The epics and PurANas do not clearly describe a lion as a mount of Ziva, but a few indications are there for such an association. (1) The MahAbhArata and the LiGga PurANa record "siMhaga" and "siMha-vAhana" as epithets of Ziva.62 (2) The MahAbhArata states that Ziva created a lion to destroy Daksha's sacrifice.63 (3) In the VAyu PurANa, DakSa did not accept Ziva's claim to receive sacrificial offerings like other gods, and, therfore, did not invite him to his sacrifice. Ziva was enraged at this insult and his wrath appeared in the form of lions. Later on, to protect the world from the fury of these wild beasts, Ziva chained them in his house.64 (4) The MahAbhArata tells us that after Skanda assumed the office of the commander-in-chief of the gods, Ziva and PArvatI sat him in their chariot, which glittered like the sun and was drawn by a thousand lions. 65 (5) The HarivaMza informs us protecting BANAsura from KRSNa, Ziva came in a chariot drawn by lions.66 (6) According to the LiGga PurANa, the lion among wild animals (AraNya) and a bull among domestic ones (grAmya) are forms of Ziva.67 The MahAbhArata also calls the lion "Ziva among the animals," and Ziva has been described elsewhere as zArdUlarUpa.68" Footnotes relevant to your request. 61. RaghuvaMza, 2.35; also 2.38 62. MBh, AnuzAsana-parvan, 17.111, 5523. LP, pUrvArdha, 65.133.182 63. MBh, ZAnti-parvan, 284.30,5166 64. VAyu PurANa (Calcutta, 1959), 4.101, 291-298, 550-551 65. MBh, Vana-parvan, 231.29, 1610 66. Ibid., HarivaMza, ViSNu-parvan, 124.18, 718; also 126.86, 731 67. LP, pUrvArdha, 32.7, 88 68. MBh, AnuzAsana-parvan, 14.321, 5500; 17.48, 5516 The MahAbhArata references may be with respect to the Calcutta edition. So some references may not exist in the critical edition. But I did find the description regarding Ziva and PArvatI travelling to meet Skanda on a chariot drawn by lions in Van Buitenan's translation Vol. 2, page 661, MBh, Vana-parvan, 221.1-5. Incidentally, Skanda also kills a DAnava by name MahiSa in his battle with the DAnavas! Since I do not have access to the Critical edition, I do not know the correct verse numbers for other references in the Critical Edition. Hope this helps. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Jul 13 15:50:10 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 97 11:50:10 -0400 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031544.23782.7511171845331593834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-07-12 11:27:15 EDT, mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) writes: << I would also like to point out that there were borrowings/lendings etc in TWO DIFFERENT HISTORICAL STAGES. The first is the classical period i.e. in the 5th and 6th centuries A.D. This is the period that we have in mind when naarangam-naaranga-naaranja is being discussed. This is also the period that we have in mind when we discuss tukki-togai etc. It is because of the fallacy between this historical stage and the Spanish Moor interaction with India ( 12th century or later)I believe that the derivation of Sp. naranja from any of the Indian languages is not that convincing. The second stage of borrowing of Indian words into European languages is much later; we are talking about the 17th/18th century A.D. when the Westerners came to India to stay, as opposed to trade. If one were to examine the history of this period, one would discover any number of words being borrowed into the European languages from the Indian languages. The example of "jungle" from Hindi belongs to this period. Likewise, I've been told that the word "loot" comes from >>I I mentioned jungle as just one instance. At least according to Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary 'sugar' is from Sanskrit carkara through Arabic, Medieval Latin, etc. Mandarin is supposed to be from Sanskrit 'mantrin'. I am sure the learned Sanskritists on the list can provide better chronology for these borrowings. The earlier you go in north Indian history, the chances of borrowing from a more Sanskritic language increases. Especially, in the time period you are talking about, there may be more material from literary Sanskrit than from the every day spoken language. So the borrowing will have to be linked to Sanskrit as the modern north Indian languages did not have their current identities then. By the way, in case of 'tuki' we are talking about a period at least 1000 years earlier than the time you had mentioned. The Kerala region seems to have had a long documented history of Jewish settlement going back to at least 2nd century AD. The trading relationship probably is much older. As for the issue at hand, the Sanskrit word 'tanu', Southworth says in his article that Dravidian and Indo-aryan speakers must have been in contact before the composition of the Rgveda. He also says, "Assuming the position that it was composed in the period 1500-1000 B.C., then the period of contact must be placed around the middle of the second millennium B.C. at the latest. One of the examples given above (OIA tanU-, Drav. tAn2/tan2 [C-10]) strongly suggests a much earlier period of contact." Southworth's article is from 1979. The archaelogical works on which Asko Parpola bases many of the statements I quoted in my posting are from more recent years and show even more acculturation between Aryan speakers and Dravidian speakers. My hypothesis fits well with these chronological and cultural findings. Of course, if there are researchers out there with contradictory facts, I would like to know and revise my hypothesis. By the way in his posting, Devarakonda Venkata Narayana Sarma said that in telugu To me, based on my hypothesis regarding 'tanu', it looks like Telugu 'tanuvu' looks like borrowing from Sanskrit. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Jul 13 16:14:01 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 97 12:14:01 -0400 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031545.23782.13235495102348068279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-07-11 23:28:57 EDT, jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) writes: << One finds throughout the literature of the Vedas frequent linguistic territoriality and hegemony hwerein Yaaj~navalkya or others speak derisively of the "so-and-so's" who say or do something wrongly--often the Kuru-pa~ncala brahmins are favorite targets of this. It would seem that, at least to the perspective of the redactors of the Vedas, there was indeed a conscious effort to accept or reject ways of speaking. My own research shows that the advent in the later RV of aatman and puruSa marked also the beginning of the end for the use of tanuu in this capacity in the Middle Vedic period of Mantra Language and SaMhitaa prose. >> let us consider the following. Stage 1. Dravidian 'pAvai' > IA translation IA 'tanU' - my suggestion Stage 2. Dravidian 'tAn2/tan2 > addition of meaning 'self' to IA 'tanU' - Southworth's suggestion According to Gardner, Stage 3. IA 'tanU' losing out to 'IA 'Atman' and 'puruSa' The questions I have are, did 'tanU' prevail in other semantic contexts such as 'body' in Vedic circles? How well did it succeed relatively in Tantric Circles? Was 'tanU' in the sense of 'self' disliked because of perceived contamination from non-IA 'tAn2/tan2' ? Even if they do not expressly state the reasons for their dislike, based on other similar contexts, can one infer that the reason was the doubtful semantic pedigree of tanU (in their eyes) w.r.t 'self'? If so, that itself isa very useful information. Regards S. Palaniappan From fo4a004 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de Sun Jul 13 10:46:31 1997 From: fo4a004 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Burkhard Quessel) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 97 12:46:31 +0200 Subject: address of Piotr Balcerowic Message-ID: <161227031542.23782.2499743072540345428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Flugel wrote: > > I am looking for the address of Piotr Balcerowic. Any suggestions > are welcome. > > Peter Flugel Piotr Balcerowicz Instytut Orientalistyczny Uniwersytet Warszawski Krakowie Przedmie'scie 26/28 00-325 Warszawa email: piotr at orient.uw.edu.pl regards, Burkhard -- Burkhard Quessel Institute for India and Tibet, Hamburg University Neue Rabenstr.3, D-20354 Hamburg, Germany phone: +49-40-41236268, fax: +49-40-41236267 e-mail: quessel at rrz.uni-hamburg.de From mahadevasiva at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 22:10:02 1997 From: mahadevasiva at hotmail.com (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 97 15:10:02 -0700 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031548.23782.4482103562051418735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Palaniappan writes: > By the way, in case of 'tuki' we are talking about a period at least 1000 years earlier than the time you had mentioned. The Kerala region seems tohave had a long documented history of Jewish settlement going back to atleast 2nd century AD. The trading relationship probably is much older. > I do realise that I was mistaken in saying that this tukki You can read D.D. Kosambi's article "The autochthonous element in the Mahabharata" in JAOS, vol.84,pp.31-44. The article has several useful references to non-Hindu versions of Krishna's story. Regards S. Palaniappan From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Mon Jul 14 15:38:34 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 10:38:34 -0500 Subject: pA, panuval, pAvai;; tantu, tantra, tanU etc., Message-ID: <161227031559.23782.10872779883983055365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The root meaning of "pA" and "tantu" is 'to extend'. Then, it is used by S. Palaniappan in derivation of words like "paavai" (figurine, goddess, pupil). This reminds me of "eye-opening" ceremonies in Hindu temples. There is a major ritual done by Sthapatis during Kumbhabhishekam events. When the Sthapathi/Shilpi/image-maker makes a black spot with anjanam on eyes of bronze or stone image, it is supposed to be imparted with life and the paricular Devata starts to reside in the idol. It appears a similar practice existed in Sumeria too. Many years ago. Dr. Irene Winter, Harvard university once went to Madras to study this ritual and talked to Dr. R. Nagaswamy. I saw the title of a lecture by her in Univ. of Penn home page last year. N. Ganesan From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Jul 14 09:08:46 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 11:08:46 +0200 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <161227031550.23782.616179520388011961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Our list has not been bothered with spamming for some time (as far as I can see), but if this spectre should once again lift its ugly head, here is a counter-strategy that might inspire us all. It is from the corpora list: ******** Dear Eugene, [who suggested moderation as a way to counter spamming] Perhaps moderation is one way to go. I have no firm opinion on this. What I do is to thank them for their interest in the corpora list by donating a 4 million word corpus (encrypted of course) included in my reply to them. Usually they use a fake return address so I just keep the domain part and replace the receiver part with "postmaster". I include the original junk so that the postmaster can figure out what inspired my response. Probably not a real good idea, but since I'm on vacation I haven't had the energy to figure out anything more constructive. Daniel Ridings Gothenburg, Sweden Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Jul 14 10:21:56 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 11:21:56 +0100 Subject: new & filled w/Qs Message-ID: <161227031553.23782.9529369399109851332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 Ngilcach at aol.com wrote: > I have recently signed on this list. My name is Valarie > Wisniewski. I have been practicing Hatha Yoga for 27 years, teaching > for 14. I have always had a borderline interest in Hinduism, one that > has increased in the last 4-5 years. Dear Valarie, Welcome to the INDOLOGY list. I am glad you are interested in Hinduism. I should like to direct your attention to the "terms and conditions" of this particular discussion list, as published on the list's web site, http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html This list was created primarily for university-level researchers and teachers in Sanskrit, Tamil, Persian, and other classical languages of India, as well as those who work on related subject-based areas such as archaeology, art, music, history of literature, etc. One of the prerequisites for participation is that one is a regular subscriber to, or at least reader of, such journals as the J. American Oriental Soc., J. Royal Asiatic Soc., Bull. SOAS, WZDMG, Journal asiatique, ABORI, J. Baroda Or. Inst., etc., etc. There are many other forums where general discussions of Hinduism, yoga, and related topics may be carried on successfully. But there not many places for the detailed, technical discussions necessary between more senior scholars. That is where INDOLOGY comes in. Because the internet has gained so much in popularity in recent years, it is necessary to guard resources like INDOLOGY, which started in 1990 with just a few university colleagues, and make an effort to keep to their defined subject areas. I certainly don't want to put you off, and you are welcome to listen to INDOLOGY and to use it as a way of developing private correspondences with people who are interested in the same topics as yourself. I hope that people seeing your message will reply to you directly, if they wish to take the discussion further. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From pf at cix.co.uk Mon Jul 14 13:22:00 1997 From: pf at cix.co.uk (pf at cix.co.uk) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 14:22:00 +0100 Subject: address of Piotr Balcerowic Message-ID: <161227031555.23782.1230058399760928014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much Burkhard and Claudius! Peter From bprecia at colmex.mx Tue Jul 15 00:35:20 1997 From: bprecia at colmex.mx (Benjamin Preciado) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 15:35:20 -0900 Subject: Krsna: contested narratives. (fwd) Message-ID: <161227031561.23782.12951452309366554246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reference to Bryant?s query on polemical references to Krsna biography, you can look my KRSNA CYCLE IN THE PURANAS (Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi 1984) the Jataka mentioned by Michael Rabe is discussed there. You don't need to go out of Hindu texts to find polemical references to K, see for example the version in the Devi Bhagavata Purana. Benjamin Preciado. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:27:51 BST From: Michael Rabe To: Members of the list Subject: Re: Krsna: contested narratives. >>I am looking for renditions of the K.r.s.na story from outside >>Puranic/Epic/Vaishnava literature (ie from Buddhist, Jain, Shaivite or >any >>other sources). >>Can anyone kindly assist me with any references? >> >>Thanks. Edwin Bryant > > I suddenly remembered something that I saw/read about a long time a >long time ago: There is a strong Krishna tradition that originated/ >still alive in Bali in Indonesia. The above discussion suddenly reminds me too that mention way made of a Buddhist jataka variant on some facet of Krishna's life. Checking my HD memory, this is all I can recover: Jim Hartzell , in 1995 a graduate student at Columbia university, was the source of this information, but I never followed up to acquire the actual citation. Michael Rabe From martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Mon Jul 14 23:43:42 1997 From: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Bemmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 16:43:42 -0700 Subject: Sorting Brahmi Message-ID: <161227031557.23782.4413216848901877587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to everybody who provided us with hints to sorting software! -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstrasse 4 Postfach 102769 D-69017 Heidelberg -- Germany phone: ++49-6221-543276 fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Jul 15 07:37:46 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 00:37:46 -0700 Subject: question about dates of manuscripts Message-ID: <161227031566.23782.5255690666711182043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> has any Indian manuscript ever been analyzed by radiocarbon dating? Or are they typically too precious to be subjected to such an experiment? Vidyasankar From Palaniappa at aol.com Tue Jul 15 04:56:35 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 00:56:35 -0400 Subject: pA, panuval, pAvai;; tantu, tantra, tanU etc., Message-ID: <161227031563.23782.15046240053632767726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-07-14 11:53:59 EDT, GANESANS at cl.uh.edu writes: << The root meaning of "pA" and "tantu" is 'to extend'. Then, it is used by S. Palaniappan in derivation of words like "paavai" (figurine, goddess, pupil). This reminds me of "eye-opening" ceremonies in Hindu temples. There is a major ritual done by Sthapatis during Kumbhabhishekam events. When the Sthapathi/Shilpi/image-maker makes a black spot with anjanam on eyes of bronze or stone image, it is supposed to be imparted with life and the paricular Devata starts to reside in the idol. It appears a similar practice existed in Sumeria too. Many years ago. Dr. Irene Winter, Harvard university once went to Madras to study this ritual and talked to Dr. R. Nagaswamy. I saw the title of a lecture by her in Univ. of Penn home page last year.>> This is very interesting. In this ritual, we seem to have the pAvai-pupil, pAvai-figurine, and the concept of divinity's presence being extended/localized all occurring together. I would like to know the mantras (and their meanings) they chant, if any, while they do this. Are there any Tantrists who can shed more light on this? Does anybody have Dr. Irene Winter's e-mail address? Regards S. Palaniappan From stone_catend at compuserve.com Tue Jul 15 09:19:33 1997 From: stone_catend at compuserve.com (Anthony P Stone) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 05:19:33 -0400 Subject: FYI - New book at 50 years of Indian independence Message-ID: <161227031572.23782.7735602049464706646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following information is given for anyone who might be interested: On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of Indian independence, Vishal Mangalwadi, winner of the Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar Distinguished National Service Award, is publishing a new book 'INDIA: The Grand Experiment'. The book is described as 'a re-discovery of the true history of India's freedom and a re-assessment of the role of the British Raj', and is expected to be a significant contribution to understanding the central difficulties and opportunities facing India today. Contents: INTRODUCTION: Freedom at Fifty THE THESIS: The Prejudice / The Thesis and its Urgency / Definitions: Their Context and Collision / The Evangelical Manifesto of India's Freedom THE EVIDENCE: Liberating the Enslaved Individual / The Colonization and Liberation of the Indian Mind / The Press: Its Inception, Freedom and Pre-supposition / Economic Emancipation / Democratization of the Nation THE IMPLICATIONS: From Freedom Towards Cultural Fascism? APPENDICES 1. Chronologies: Development of Ideas / Dates in Indian History / Relevant International Dates / Chronological Outline of Colonialism / Milestones of the Freedom Movement / The Rise of Hindu Nationalism / 2. Maps 384 pages. Publication Date: July 31, 1997 ISBN 0-9513089-4-7 (hardback), 0-9513089-5-5 (paperback) In UK: Pippa Rann Books, 2 Highfield Road, Farnham, Surrey GU9 0LX, U.K. Tel: 0181-770 9717 Email: 100126.3641 at compuserve.com In India: Nivedit Good Books Distributors Pvt. Ltd., Ivy Cottage, Landour, Mussoorie, U.P. - 248 179, India. Tel: 0135.630891 Email: ruth at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in In USA: The MacLaurin Institute, 331 Seventeenth Ave SE, Minneapolis, MN 55414, USA. Tel: 1-800-582-8541 Email: maclaurn at tc.umn.edu For further details, including possible dates for interviews, see http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/vkm.htm From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jul 15 08:35:54 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 09:35:54 +0100 Subject: question about dates of manuscripts Message-ID: <161227031568.23782.4121782892326728329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > has any Indian manuscript ever been analyzed by radiocarbon dating? Or are > they typically too precious to be subjected to such an experiment? Not to my knowledge. But not because they are too precious, but because they are too young. No known Sanskrit manuscript dates from before the Christian era, and one can usually tell the date of a MS to within a couple of hundred years or so by examining its external appearence and script (eh, Richard?). This is much closer than one could get with radiocarbon dating. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From deck at div.harvard.edu Tue Jul 15 13:48:53 1997 From: deck at div.harvard.edu (deck at div.harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 09:48:53 -0400 Subject: pA, panuval, pAvai;; tantu, tantra, tanU etc., Message-ID: <161227031576.23782.7512116440903874685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Irene Winter's email is iwinter at fas.harvard.edu. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jul 15 08:54:29 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 09:54:29 +0100 Subject: question about dates of manuscripts Message-ID: <161227031570.23782.13651770683152140240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops. Pardon my illiteracy. On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > couple of hundred years or so by examining its external appearence and read "appearance". Dominik From Palaniappa at aol.com Tue Jul 15 16:01:25 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 12:01:25 -0400 Subject: Etymology of 'tanU' Message-ID: <161227031579.23782.16515991776493838512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following may be of interest to those interested in exploring the issue of tan2/tAn2 in Dravidian and tanU in IA. The Sanskrit grammatical terms 'Atmanepada' and 'parasmaipada' have parallels in Tamil as 'tan2vin2ai' and 'piRavin2ai' although there is no one-to-one correspondence between the two groups. The term 'tan2vin2ai' occurs in TolkAppiyam. A discussion of these categories can be found in Dr. K. Paramasivan's book Effectivity and Causativity in Tamil. Regards S. Palaniappan From magier at columbia.edu Tue Jul 15 18:08:32 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 14:08:32 -0400 Subject: Rajasthan Studies Group ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227031585.23782.8153760151102081943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to forward the following announcement to all South Asia related mailing lists and listservs. My apologies for any cross-posting. Please contact Dr. Weisgrau directly for any further queries or comments. David Magier SARAI (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai) ========================================= RAJASTHAN STUDIES GROUP Rajasthan Studies Group invites all interested scholars to join. This inter-disciplinary organization brings together all those with an interest in Rajasthani history, culture, religion, ecology and art. Newsletter, intellectual projects, panels and regular meetings are just some of the activities and benefits of membership. For further information, please contact: Maxine Weisgrau Department of Anthropology Barnard College mkw3 at columbia.edu From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue Jul 15 20:06:19 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 15:06:19 -0500 Subject: pA, panuval, pAvai;; tanu, tantra, tanU Message-ID: <161227031587.23782.11534883085757132455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Requesting the presence of divinity in a localized form, here and now, occurs both in Saiva and Vaishnava worlds. This aagamic practice is detailed in R. H. Davis' book. The mudras by a sivacharyar doing an aatmartha puja are also included. Richard H. Davis, Ritual in an oscillating universe: Worshipping Siva in medieval India. Princeton, 1991. S. S. Janaki, Siva temple and temple rituals. Kuppuswami Sastri Institute, Madras, 1988. N. Ganesan PS: I don't know whether the following has anything on Kumbhabhishekam "eye-opening" rituals. But we can ask the sthapatis/sivacharyars in USA temples. May be Dr. Joanne P. Waghorne, N. Carolina knows too. She is studying the colonial and modern temple rituals. M. W. Meister, Making things in South Asia: the role of the artist and craftsmen, 1988. Jan Brouwer, The makers of the world. Oxford, 1995. From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Tue Jul 15 14:54:39 1997 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (martinez) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 16:54:39 +0200 Subject: Confs: Internat. Symposium - 125 Jahre Indogermanistik in Graz Message-ID: <161227031578.23782.872242088973022620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message has been sent to Linguist List, Indoeuropean, Indology and HISTLING. Apologies for cross-postings! -- See. http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/curric/graz98.html -- Die Abteilung "Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft" des Instituts f|r Sprachwissenschaft an der Karl-Franzens-Universitdt Graz veranstaltet vom 30. Juni - 2. Juli 1998 ein Internationales Symposium 125 Jahre Indogermanistik in Graz (1873 - 1998) Die Referate sollen die Forschungsschwerpunkte der indogermanistischen Tradition in Graz dokumentieren und sind deshalb besonders aus folgenden Gebieten erw|nscht: Indo-Iranisch Italisch Griechisch Anatolisch Indogermanische Tr|mmersprachen Onomastik Nat|rlich sind Referate aus allen Bereichen der indogermanischen, der historisch-vergleichenden und der allgemeinen Sprachwissenschaft willkommen. n die Abteilung "Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft" Institut f|r Sprachwissenschaft z.Hd. Dr. Michaela Ofitsch Merangasse 70/II A-8010 Graz Austria A n m e l d u n g Ich nehme am Symposium "125 Jahre Indogermanistik in Graz" vom 30.6. - 2.7.1998 in Graz teil. Name: ......................................................................................................... Adresse: ......................................................................................................... Tel.: ............................................................ Fax: ............................................................ e-mail: ............................................................ Ich nehme teil: mit Referat m ohne Referat m Referatsthema: ........................................................................................................................ ........................................................................................................................ Datum: ..................... Unterschrift:.......................................... From js253 at hermes.cam.ac.uk Tue Jul 15 16:19:59 1997 From: js253 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (J. Shaw) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 17:19:59 +0100 Subject: Info regarding South-Asian Archaelogy (fwd) Message-ID: <161227031581.23782.16893608734991677224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:33:48 +0100 () From: Alicia Wise To: britarch at mailbase.ac.uk Cc: director at bom2.vsnl.net.in Subject: Info regarding South-Asian Archaelogy Dear Britarch Members, I have received the following query from Mr Nair, and unfortunately do not have any information for him. Could any of you help? Please address your responses to him directly at director at bom2.vsnl.net.in Thanks, Alicia Wise Archaeology Data Service ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:59:30 -0700 From: "J. K. Nair" To: info at franklin.york.ac.uk Subject: Info regarding South-Asian Archaelogy Dear Sir, I am interested in knowing whether any article has been published on the Internet concerning the mythical Saraswati river which flowed once, as legends say, through the N-W Indian states of Rajasthan and Punjab , through to Sind (Pakistan) and emptied itself in the present day Rann of Kutch. Also, my other interest lies in the understanding more about the Archeology of Ancient South Asian cities such as Sopara ( near Bombay) which has been identified (according to some) to be the mythical city of Ophir, and other cities like Muziris and other settlements related to the ancient Roman Trade routes in Southern India. I would indeed be very fortunate if you could give me any information regarding these topics. I remain, Yours Faithfully, Jayakrishnan Nair _____________________________________________________________ Alicia L. Wise aw25 at york.ac.uk Data Coordinator coord1 at ads.ahds.ac.uk Archaeology Data Service University of York Tel: (01904) 433954 King's Manor Fax: (01904) 433939 York YO1 2EP UK http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/ahds/__________________________________ From ferrini at tdnet.it Tue Jul 15 16:29:50 1997 From: ferrini at tdnet.it (Ferrini) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 18:29:50 +0200 Subject: Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227031583.23782.2055408598197705483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, We are working on a translation of the Mahabharata into Italian and in the Sabha-parvan, chapters 5,11 and 35, we had difficulty understanding the cultural and technical meaning of some terms. Since we are adding footnotes for such terms, we would greatly appreciate any elucidation concerning these points along with your sources i.e: title, page, author, publisher,etc. Thank-you for your kind attention and any information you can offer on this matter. Sincerely, Marco Ferrini SP 5 Dialogue between Devarshi Naarada Muni and Mahaaraaja Yudhishthira: -shloka 8/12 "O sinless one, do you employ the six qualities of kings, and thus study the seven means of policy, analyzing the fourteen areas of strength and weakness?" - Footnote "the six qualities of kings". - Footnote "the seven means of policy". - Footnote "the fourteen areas of strenght and weakness". - shloka 12/16 "Honestly examining yourself and others, do you keep peace and attend to the eight kinds of work, O Bhaarata? O Bhaarata leader, do you see that your six kinds of advisers are neither deprived of nor corrupted by wealth, and that they are truly loyal to you in all respects?" - Footnote "the eight kinds of works" - Footnote "six kinds of advisers" -shloka 52/56 "Is your army, equipped with the eight elements and the four kinds of strength, well led by your best fighters, and does it push back those who oppose you? " - Footnote "eight elements" - Footnote "four kinds of strenght" -shloka 68/72 "Are the five duties carefully discharged by five wise men of selfless deeds, and do they work together, O King, to bring safety to your nation? - Footnote "the five duties" - shloka 72/76 "O lord of earth, having slept at night for the first two periods (yaamas) of three hours each, do you then arise in the final three-hour period, and deeply ponder your religious and practical duties? " - Footnote "the first two periods (yaamas) of three hours each" shloka 80/84 "Do physicians expert in the eight branches of medicine, true and devoted friends, ever attend to the well-being of your body?" - Footnote "the eight branches of medicine" SP 11 - shloka 20/24 "Mantra, Rathantara, Harimaan, and Vasumaan, the aadityas, with their overlord, and those called by various double names" - Footnote "various double names"; In sscr. naanaadvamdvair - shloka 28 "The years, the five-year cycles, the four kinds of days and nights, and the divine wheel of time, which is eternal, indestructible and inexhaustible" - Footnote "the five-year cycles" - Footnote "the four kinds of days and nights"; in sscr. ahoraatraashcaturvidhaah SP 35 - shloka 24 "Intelligence, mind, the mighty wind, fire, water, sky, and all that is earth - the entire four-fould existence is situated in Krshna". - Footnote "four-fould existence" From suzuki at culture.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp Tue Jul 15 10:19:12 1997 From: suzuki at culture.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (SUZUKI Takayasu) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 19:19:12 +0900 Subject: question about dates of manuscripts Message-ID: <161227031574.23782.3703730160917526865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 97/07/15 17:44:16, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > has any Indian manuscript ever been analyzed by radiocarbondating? Or are > > they typically too precious to be subjected to such an experiment? > > Not to my knowledge. But not because they are too precious, but because > they are too young. I think so too. Radiocarbon-dating has usually an error within about +- 500 years. Some analyze Indian MSS. through the fibers of the papers or leaves. They examin them from the point of the era and the area in which they were used, but I don't remember their names. Sorry. -- SUZUKI Takayasu @ Inst. of Oriental Culture, Univ. of Tokyo E-mail: suzuki at ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Wed Jul 16 02:37:38 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 08:07:38 +0530 Subject: Info regarding South-Asian Archaelogy (fwd); Sarasvati river Message-ID: <161227031589.23782.2804383786650046259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The following links may be of interest: http://www.investindia.com/webzine4 http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/saraswatisindhucivization.html http://www.liverpool.ac.uk/indology/indus.html Will be happy to provide additional info. on the Sarasvati Shodh Pratishthan, Jodhpur and Sarasvati sindhu research centre, chennai.Sarasvati course circa 1500 b.c. has been fully mapped with 1200 archaeological sites from UP to Gulf of Khambat, thru HP, Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Bahawalpur province, Sindh, Rann of Kutch, Saurashtra. regards, kalyanaraman. mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Tel. +91 44 2354640 At 05:30 PM 7/15/97 BST, you wrote: > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:33:48 +0100 () >From: Alicia Wise >To: britarch at mailbase.ac.uk >Cc: director at bom2.vsnl.net.in >Subject: Info regarding South-Asian Archaelogy > > >Dear Britarch Members, > >I have received the following query from Mr Nair, and unfortunately do >not have any information for him. Could any of you help? Please >address your responses to him directly at director at bom2.vsnl.net.in > >Thanks, > >Alicia Wise >Archaeology Data Service > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:59:30 -0700 >From: "J. K. Nair" >To: info at franklin.york.ac.uk >Subject: Info regarding South-Asian Archaelogy > >Dear Sir, >I am interested in knowing whether any article has been published on the >Internet concerning the mythical Saraswati river which flowed once, as >legends say, through the N-W Indian states of Rajasthan and Punjab , >through to Sind (Pakistan) and emptied itself in the present day Rann of >Kutch. > >Also, my other interest lies in the understanding more about the >Archeology of Ancient South Asian cities such as Sopara ( near Bombay) >which has been identified (according to some) to be the mythical city of >Ophir, and other cities like Muziris and other settlements related to >the ancient Roman Trade routes in Southern India. > >I would indeed be very fortunate if you could give me any information >regarding these topics. > >I remain, >Yours Faithfully, > >Jayakrishnan Nair > > >_____________________________________________________________ > >Alicia L. Wise aw25 at york.ac.uk >Data Coordinator coord1 at ads.ahds.ac.uk >Archaeology Data Service >University of York Tel: (01904) 433954 >King's Manor Fax: (01904) 433939 >York YO1 2EP >UK > >http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/ahds/__________________________________ > > > > > > > > From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Wed Jul 16 17:42:29 1997 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 10:42:29 -0700 Subject: Kalidasa's Raghuvamsa Message-ID: <161227031591.23782.9786853402003961806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also Robert Antoine's tr., "The Dynasty of Raghu" (Calcutta: Writers Workshop, 1972). R. Salomon On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, J. Randall Groves wrote: > Dear Indologists: > Does anyone know of an available English translation of Kalidasa's > Raghuvamsa. My library is having trouble locating it, so any info would > be appreciated. Randy Groves, Associate Prof. of Humanities, Ferris > State University. > > From lj43233 at navix.net Thu Jul 17 02:12:06 1997 From: lj43233 at navix.net (LaDeane) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 21:12:06 -0500 Subject: Mithila Study Group Message-ID: <161227031593.23782.14036326951132712087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to form a group of scholars interested in the history, language, culture, and art of the Mithila region of Bihar. Projects might include meetings, exchange of papers and information and perhaps a newsletter. If interested please contact: Mahesh D. Jha 4627 A. Street Lincoln, NE 68510 USA phone: 1-402-488-5690 email: mdjha at navix.net or lj43233 at navix.net Mahesh Jha 4627 A Street Lincoln, NE 68510 USA Phone: 1-402-488-5690 mdjha at navix.net lj43233 at navix.net From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Jul 17 08:58:35 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 97 09:58:35 +0100 Subject: Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227031596.23782.8667941186838562160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are not most of your questions answered by NIlakaNTha in his commentary? He has a lot to say about these things. Or do you not trust him? Best wishes, Georg v.Simson Ferrini's question was: > Dear Indologists, > We are working on a translation of the Mahabharata into Italian and >in the Sabha-parvan, chapters 5,11 and 35, we had difficulty understanding the >cultural and technical meaning of some terms. > Since we are adding footnotes for such terms, we would greatly >appreciate any elucidation concerning these points along with your sources >i.e: title, page, author, publisher,etc. > Thank-you for your kind attention and any information you can offer >on this matter. > Sincerely, > Marco Ferrini > > >SP 5 >Dialogue between Devarshi Naarada Muni and Mahaaraaja Yudhishthira: > > -shloka 8/12 "O sinless one, do you employ the six qualities of >kings, and >thus study the seven means of policy, analyzing the fourteen areas of >strength and weakness?" > > - Footnote "the six qualities of kings". > - Footnote "the seven means of policy". > - Footnote "the fourteen areas of strenght and weakness". > > - shloka 12/16 "Honestly examining yourself and others, do you keep >peace and >attend to the eight kinds of work, O Bhaarata? O Bhaarata leader, do you >see that your six kinds of advisers are neither deprived of nor corrupted >by wealth, and that they are truly loyal to you in all respects?" > > - Footnote "the eight kinds of works" > - Footnote "six kinds of advisers" > > -shloka 52/56 "Is your army, equipped with the eight elements and >the four >kinds of strength, well led by your best fighters, and does it push back >those who oppose you? " > > - Footnote "eight elements" > - Footnote "four kinds of strenght" > > -shloka 68/72 "Are the five duties carefully discharged by five wise >men of >selfless deeds, and do they work together, O King, to bring safety to your >nation? > > > - Footnote "the five duties" > > - shloka 72/76 "O lord of earth, having slept at night for the >first two >periods (yaamas) of three hours each, do you then arise in the final >three-hour period, and deeply ponder your religious and practical duties? " > > - Footnote "the first two periods (yaamas) of three hours each" > >shloka 80/84 "Do physicians expert in the eight branches of medicine, true >and devoted friends, ever attend to the well-being of your body?" > > - Footnote "the eight branches of medicine" > > > SP 11 > - shloka 20/24 "Mantra, Rathantara, Harimaan, and Vasumaan, the >aadityas, >with their overlord, and those called by various double names" > >- Footnote "various double names"; In sscr. naanaadvamdvair > > - shloka 28 "The years, the five-year cycles, the four kinds of >days and >nights, and the divine wheel of time, which is eternal, indestructible and >inexhaustible" > > - Footnote "the five-year cycles" > - Footnote "the four kinds of days and nights"; in sscr. >ahoraatraashcaturvidhaah > > SP 35 > - shloka 24 "Intelligence, mind, the mighty wind, fire, water, sky, >and all >that is earth - the entire four-fould existence is situated in Krshna". > > - Footnote "four-fould existence" From magier at columbia.edu Thu Jul 17 19:09:30 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 97 15:09:30 -0400 Subject: Hindi Position announcement Message-ID: <161227031598.23782.17685174157063895241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is being forwarded toyour listserv or mailing list from the POSITIONS section of SARAI: South Asia Resource Access on the Internet (The World Wide Web Virtual Library for South Asia). Please respond directly to the address below for any further information. David Magier (SARAI) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai =============================== A Part-time instructor is sought for Fall 1997 to teach ELEMENTARY HINDI (3 Credits). Qualifications:: -native proficiency in Hindi -advanced degree in language teaching, linguistics, South Asian Studies or related field -excellent command of English -Teaching experience preferred Those who are interested, please write and send a resume to Chair, Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures, Rutgers University, Scott Hall, College Av, New Brunswick NJ 08903 Deadline: August 11, 1997 Telephone: 732 932-7605 Fax: 732 932-7926 Rutgers University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com Fri Jul 18 04:30:52 1997 From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 97 21:30:52 -0700 Subject: INDIA - A Search for its Present in History Message-ID: <161227031601.23782.11128188669845345797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I have put up some of the notes of my sociological study ?INDIA - A Search for the Present in History? at the site: "http://members.tripod.com/~sudheerb/" I invite you to visit this site. Sudheer _______________ P.S.The intriguing title of this book represents a novel approach to the study of present society looked upon as a result of history. This approach 'stands on its head' the conventional approach to the study of history which begins with the dim past and comes to the present as a conclusion. Our approach starts with social institut ions and practices of the contemporary age and traces their origin and development to the historic past. With this approach the reader does not feel lost on 'She opening page of a history bock. He is not confronted with a society in which lived his ancestors two or three thousand years ago. He begins with the society surrounding him, which is of his immediate concern. This method of interpreting the present and past should establish an intimate rapport between a citizen of today and the heritage bequeated to him by earlier generations. In our lifestyle, customs, traditions, beliefs; our history is reflected but it is normally beyond our perception. It would be a fascinating and enlightening experience to trace the origins of things we see and do today in the bygone ages. For more on this visit the site: "http://members.tripod.com/~sudheerb/" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From amccord at ibm.net Fri Jul 18 13:56:48 1997 From: amccord at ibm.net (amccord) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 97 09:56:48 -0400 Subject: E-mail address for Bo Sax Message-ID: <161227031604.23782.12886878361721742173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone please send me the e-mail address for W.S. Sax at the University of Canterbury? Thank you. Andy McCord From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Fri Jul 18 14:29:06 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 97 15:29:06 +0100 Subject: E-mail address for Bo Sax Message-ID: <161227031606.23782.183681454622219882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Could someone please send me the e-mail address for W.S. Sax at the > University of Canterbury? It's W.Sax at phil.canterbury.ac.nz John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From tatelman at total.net Sat Jul 19 14:29:38 1997 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 97 09:29:38 -0500 Subject: More propitiating the planets Message-ID: <161227031611.23782.12129459225241098482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin, Regarding your request for the Sanskrit text of Matsyapuraa.na, chapters 93-94 and 228-239 and Padmapuraa.na, chapters 78 to the end - I'll be going to the University of Toronto Library within the next five days. If you wish to send me your postal address, I'll photocopy what I can of the relevant material and send it to you. Let me know. Regards, Joel. Dr. Joel Tatelman, 31 Grenadier Road, Toronto, Canada M6R 1R1 Tel.: (416) 535-4997 E-mail: tatelman at total.net From mgansten at sbbs.se Sat Jul 19 07:39:43 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 97 09:39:43 +0200 Subject: More propitiating the planets Message-ID: <161227031608.23782.15426814008500590150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message is being sent to the Indology and RISA lists; my apologies to those who receive it twice. According to Hazra, the Puranic texts mainly dealing with the propitiation of the planets appear to be the Matsyapurana, chapters 93, 94, and 228-239, as well as the Srishti-khanda of the Padmapurana, "chapters 78 to the end". Is there anyone out there who could be of help in providing me with *the Sanskrit text* of some or all of these chapters? Monetary recompense guaranteed, naturally. Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Mon Jul 21 15:15:22 1997 From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 16:15:22 +0100 Subject: List admin Message-ID: <161227031613.23782.2280543473126622857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a standard message which is being sent to some of the busier lists we manage. Apologies to those of you who get multiple copies For the next few weeks, responsibilities for looking after this list will be shared by several of us here. Provided you follow the recommended guidelines and send list queries to the address XXXX-request (replace XXXX with the listname) then your query will be promptly dealt with. If you send queries to a specified individual then there may be an appreciable delay. ------------------------------------------------------------ Chris Wooff (C.Wooff at liv.ac.uk, ....mcsun!uknet!liv!C.Wooff) Sent with Simeon Version 4.1.2 Build 21 From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 22 08:09:06 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 01:09:06 -0700 Subject: Shri Satyanarayana Puja. Message-ID: <161227031615.23782.13017992102305710501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Could anyone provide me with references as to where I might find the text to the Satyanarayana Puja? I've searched the libraries at my University but could not find an entry by the name of "Satyanarayana Puja" or "Shri...", all permutations included! Could it be bound within some other work? Is it not easily located in a printed form? I saw an electronic version of it at a site whose URL is eluding me at the moment, but the transliteration is not consistent. I could get by with that version, but I would prefer to have a more accurate transliteration, or ideally, the text in Devanagari. Thanks. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From cssetzer at mum.edu Tue Jul 22 16:44:55 1997 From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 11:44:55 -0500 Subject: Shri Satyanarayana Puja. Message-ID: <161227031621.23782.3410662674713653461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This puja is performed on a regular basis at the Sri Venkateswara Temple in Pittsburgh PA, USA. They hand out texts in several languages, depending on who is performing it. The web address is www.svtemple.org and email is srivaru at svtemple.org. I think they can send you what you want. Phone: 412-373-3380, address: PO Box 17280, Pittsburgh, PA 15235. They have lots of books, audio tapes, and video tapes for sale. Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu ---------- > From: Anshuman Pandey > To: Members of the list > Subject: Shri Satyanarayana Puja. > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 12:01 PM > > > Hello, > > Could anyone provide me with references as to where I might find the text > to the Satyanarayana Puja? I've searched the libraries at my University > but could not find an entry by the name of "Satyanarayana Puja" or > "Shri...", all permutations included! Could it be bound within some other > work? Is it not easily located in a printed form? I saw an electronic > version of it at a site whose URL is eluding me at the moment, but the > transliteration is not consistent. I could get by with that version, but I > would prefer to have a more accurate transliteration, or ideally, the > text in Devanagari. > > Thanks. > > Regards, > Anshuman Pandey > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Jul 22 10:28:35 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 12:28:35 +0200 Subject: Light relief Message-ID: <161227031617.23782.12730050903413594006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Given the lax intensity of traffic on this list recently, I abuse the opportunity to send you something which is decidedly non-Indological, and which makes me very happy I am an Indological person and not the sort of person portrayed below. ************************* >Recently reported in the Massachusetts Bar Association Lawyers Journal, the >following are questions actually asked of witnesses by attorneys during >trials and, in certain cases, the responses given by insightful witnesses. > >1. "Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in his sleep, he >doesn't know about it until the next morning?" >2. "The youngest son, the twenty-year old, how old is he?" >3. "Were you present when your picture was taken?" >4. "Were you alone or by yourself?" >5. Was it you or your younger brother who was killed in the war?" >6. "Did he kill you?" >7. "How far apart were the vehicles at the time of the collision?" >8. "You were there until the time you left, is that true?" >9. "How many times have you committed suicide?" >10. Q: "So the date of conception (of the baby) was August 8th?" > A: "Yes." > Q: "And what were you doing at that time?" >11. Q: "She had three children, right?" > A: "Yes." > Q: "How many were boys?" > A: "None." > Q: "Were there any girls?" >12. Q: "You say the stairs went down to the basement?" > A: "Yes." > Q: "And these stairs, did they go up also?" >13. Q: "Mr. Slatery, you went on a rather elaborate honeymoon, didn't >you?" > A: "I went to Europe, Sir." > Q: "And you took your new wife?" >14. Q: "How was your first marriage terminated?" > A: "By death." > Q: "And by who's death was it terminated?" >15. Q: "Can you describe the individual?" > A: "He was about medium height and had a beard." > Q:"Was this a male, or a female?" >16. Q: "Is your appearance here this morning pursuant to a deposition >notice which I sent to your attorney?" > A: "No, this is how I dress when I go to work." >17. Q: "Doctor, how many autopsies have your performed on dead people?" > A: "All my autopsies are performed on dead people." >18. Q: "All your responses must be oral, OK? What school did you go to?" > A: "Oral." >19. Q: "Do you recall the time that you examined the body?" > A: "The autopsy started around 8:30 p.m.." > Q: "And Mr. Dennington was dead at the time?" > A: "No, you dummy, he was sitting on the table wondering why I >was doing an autopsy." > Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 11:49:21 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 12:49:21 +0100 Subject: on leave Message-ID: <161227031619.23782.12377292316349127953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm on leave until 12 August. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Wed Jul 23 01:37:26 1997 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 18:37:26 -0700 Subject: subhaa.sita Message-ID: <161227031624.23782.326511342938795126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That must be: pustakasthaa tu yaa vidyaa parashastagata.m dhana.m / kaaryakaale tu sampraapte na saa vidyaa na tad dhanam // (attributed to Caa.nakya-niiti) RS On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, F. Smith wrote: > Does anyone out there (e.g. Madhav, Ashok, etc.) know the Sanskrit for a > subhaa.sita which translates something like, "Knowledge not memorized is > like money lent--in time of need neither are available." > > Fred Smith > > > From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed Jul 23 01:00:05 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 20:00:05 -0500 Subject: subhaa.sita Message-ID: <161227031622.23782.2455118178693613393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone out there (e.g. Madhav, Ashok, etc.) know the Sanskrit for a subhaa.sita which translates something like, "Knowledge not memorized is like money lent--in time of need neither are available." Fred Smith From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Jul 23 01:50:52 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 21:50:52 -0400 Subject: subhaa.sita Message-ID: <161227031626.23782.14248447945596320653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here it is: pustakasthaa tu yaa vidyaa parahastagatam dhanam kaaryakaale samutpanne na saa vidyaa na tad dhanam All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, F. Smith wrote: > Does anyone out there (e.g. Madhav, Ashok, etc.) know the Sanskrit for a > subhaa.sita which translates something like, "Knowledge not memorized is > like money lent--in time of need neither are available." > > Fred Smith > > > From girish at mushika.wanet.com Wed Jul 23 15:57:55 1997 From: girish at mushika.wanet.com (Girish Sharma) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 08:57:55 -0700 Subject: To roll or not to roll Message-ID: <161227031629.23782.11846548382800014493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having listened to tapes of several pundits reciting Sanskrit as well as to lay speakers of Sanskrit, I am left wondering about the proper pronunciation of 'r'. Some seem to "roll" (as in Spanish) only the vowel '.r', some roll both '.r' and the consonant 'r', and some roll neither. In English I seem to pronounce 'r' with the velar (gutteral) point of articulation, however Sanskrit grammars associate 'r' with the muurdhanya varga (retroflex class). Can someone help me understand these issues. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------- Girish Sharma San Diego, CA From IMILEWS at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl Wed Jul 23 11:12:28 1997 From: IMILEWS at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl (Iwona Milewska) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 11:12:28 +0000 Subject: Dubrovnik Conference on Skt Epics & Puranas Message-ID: <161227031628.23782.8914419218933831408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear John, I would like to ask you whether it would be possible to reserve any locum for me in Dubrovnik between 10.08 - 18.08 (the cheaper the better) ? My situation is as follows : I applied to Batory Foundation and now I am after the first selection. The final result will be known in the first week of August so comparatively late. So I have reserved the plane and I have a good hope to meet you soon. Thank you again for your recommendation letter. I am sending my best kisses to both of you. Iwona. From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed Jul 23 18:28:16 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 13:28:16 -0500 Subject: subhaa.sita Message-ID: <161227031631.23782.3072360414005074166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Rich for the subhaa.sita. By the way, I ordered a copy of your new epigraphy book, which the publisher said would be available in June. Do you have any updated info on that? Fred Frederick M. Smith Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. + 319-335-2178 (O) + 319-338-7193 (H) fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed Jul 23 18:34:43 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 13:34:43 -0500 Subject: subhaa.sita Message-ID: <161227031633.23782.346674557207896961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Madhav. I hope your daughter's vivaaha went off well. You needn't write a testimonial for John Gardner's website or database. He has put in an enormous amount of work on it, but even a hundred letters from scholars will probably not improve his chances for further funding from the University. He has simply taken too much time and made several enemies here. So I'm afraid he will have to complete his dissertation without further support from the Univ. There remains a possibility that the Dean will have mercy on him and throw a few dollars his direction, but that is nothing that more letters of support for his web work will assist. Best regards, Fred Frederick M. Smith Assoc. Prof. of Sanskrit and Classical Indian Religion School of Religion - 314 Gilmore Hall Department of Asian Languages and Literature - 653 Phillips Hall University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 U.S.A. + 319-335-2178 (O) + 319-338-7193 (H) fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Thu Jul 24 00:59:29 1997 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 17:59:29 -0700 Subject: subhaa.sita Message-ID: <161227031635.23782.16004401878690154893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> More on the subhaa.sita "pustakasthaa tu yaa vidyaa...": There is also a Pali version, which is cited with references by Steven Collins in "Notes on Some Oral Aspects of Pali Literature" in IIJ 35, 1992, pp.121 and 130. RS From athr at loc.gov Thu Jul 24 14:09:54 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 10:09:54 -0400 Subject: Dainika jagarana (New Delhi) offered Message-ID: <161227031639.23782.6125193504872692868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Through a mistake the Library of Congress has in Washington a run of the New Delhi ed. of Dainika jagarana, a Hindi daily. LC plans to film the Kanpur ed. and has no use for this run. The sequence is approximately 1 Nov. 92-1 Nov 93 (they are not completely in order and there may be some slightly later). Would any library with an exchange relationship with the Library of Congress like these? Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From athr at loc.gov Thu Jul 24 14:18:13 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 10:18:13 -0400 Subject: Shrine of Magi Message-ID: <161227031641.23782.17113564090448622369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A patron is trying to locate a shrine or church in Kerala devoted to the Three Magi, with which he was in contact many years ago. Is anyone aware of one? Thanks, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From athr at loc.gov Thu Jul 24 14:24:13 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 10:24:13 -0400 Subject: Nirode K. Barooah: address Message-ID: <161227031644.23782.2547481542029637728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A scholar writing a major book on an American leftist revolutionary is trying to find the address of Nirode K. Barooah, who has written on Indian revolutionaries in Germany and on Assam history. She is writing him through several publishers but would naturally like a quicker address. I have already checked SARAI/S. Asia Gopher. Could anyone help? Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress LJ150 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From eshyjka at dc.isx.com Thu Jul 24 15:02:48 1997 From: eshyjka at dc.isx.com (Elisabeth Shyjka) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 11:02:48 -0400 Subject: Dainika jagarana (New Delhi) offered Message-ID: <161227031647.23782.116201563988210556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Thrasher, I live in the DC area and was hoping you be willing to meet me or converse with me over email. I am currently applying separately to graduate programs in South Asian studies and Information Retrieval/Computer Science for the Fall of 1998. I have a B.S. in Computer Science and have been a practicing engineer since graduating. My interest in India stems from my semester stay in Tamil Nadu as an exchange student during college. I have been having trouble reconciling my interests in computers and India. I have found only a few ways in which to make them co-exist. Usually, it means sacrificing a great deal of one or the other field. Seeing your signature made me think of something that might just pull the two together, Library Sciences. Many of the programs I am looking at for Computer Science are actually joint programs with the departments of Library Sciences. I do not know very much about the field of Library Science outside of the computer aspects. Do you think it would be possible to specialize in South Asian material and computers? Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Elisabeth Shyjka Intelligent Systems Engineer ISX Corportation Internet: eshyjka at dc.isx.com Phone: 703.247.7818 Fax: 703.247.7895 -----Original Message----- From: Allen Thrasher To: Members of the list Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 10:16 AM Subject: Dainika jagarana (New Delhi) offered > . . .[removed] > >Allen W. Thrasher >Senior Reference Librarian >Southern Asia Section >Library of Congress >LJ150 >101 Independence Ave, S.E. >Washington, DC 20540-4814 >tel. (202) 707-3732 >fax (202) 707-1724 >email: athr at loc.gov > > > > > From thillaud at unice.fr Thu Jul 24 09:28:19 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 11:28:19 +0200 Subject: yudhiSThira Message-ID: <161227031636.23782.18379540074358802895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, The name of the eldest pAndava seems to be 'steady in the fight' but he's not a great warrior as bhIma or arjuna ... Can we understand this nominal compound as 'steady about the fight', hence 'not giving way to the violence', the 'i' in yudhi- being perhaps an ancient low grade dative ? Are other names or words ending by -sthira ? Advices and/or references would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Thu Jul 24 18:44:11 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 13:44:11 -0500 Subject: Q: A poem from Ciivaka cintaamaNi Message-ID: <161227031650.23782.3933637486957866741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need a poem starting with the word "collarum" from the Tamil Jaina epic, ciivaka cintaamaNi. Can anyone send that viruttam for me please? The University of Koeln library catalogs, tamil classical texts, Tamil lexicon cannot be searched nowadays. Can somebody look into that please? Thanks N. Ganesan From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Jul 25 06:43:47 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 02:43:47 -0400 Subject: Amorphousphallus Campanulatus and proof of pre-Vedic Tantrism? Message-ID: <161227031652.23782.4250530948350989390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Rig Veda 7.104.24, 10.87.2, and 10.87.14 given below, there appear persons called ?yAtudhAna? who worship some divinity called ?mUradeva?. The Sanskrit texts taken from J.R. Gardner?s Vedavid web-site are given below. indra jahi pumAMsaM yAtudhAnamuta striyaM mAyayA shAshadAnAm | vigrIvAso mUradevA Rdantu mA te dRshaM sUryamuccarantam || This has been translated by R. T. H. Griffith as, "Slay the male demon, Indra! Slay the female, joying and triumphing in arts of magic. Let the fools? gods with bent necks fall and perish, and see no more the Sun when he arises." R.M. Panikkar translates the same verse as, "Slay, O Indra, the male magician and also the witch who boasts of her magic. May idolaters perish with broken necks! No more for them the rising of the sun. ayodaMSTro arciSA yAtudhAnAnupa spRsha jAtavedaHsamiddhaH | A jihvayA muradevAn rabhasva kravyAdo vRktvyapi dhatsvAsan || This has been translated by R. T. H. Griffith as, "O Jatavedas with the teeth of iron, enkindled with thy flame attack the demons. Seize with thy tongue the foolish gods? adorers; rend, put within thy mouth the raw-flesh eaters." parA shRNIhi tapasA yAtudhAnAn parAgne rakSo harasAshRNIhi | parArciSA mUradevA?chRNIhi parAsutRpo abhishoshucAnaH || This has been translated by R. T. H. Griffith as, "With fervent heat exterminate the demons; destroy the fiends with burning flame, O Agni. Destroy with fire the foolish gods? adorers; blaze and destroy the insatiable monster." R.M. Panikkar translates the same verse as, "Destroy with your heat the workers of magic; destroy with your power the evil spirits; destroy with your flames idolatrous persons; burn to nothingness murderous scoundrels!" Griffith footnotes, "According to the St. Petersburg Lexicon, mU?radevAH = mU?ladevAH, a species of demons or goblins." Manfred Mayrhofer?s Kurzgefasstes etymologissches Worterbuch des Altindischen, also equates mUra and mUla. According to Monier-Williams, ?mUla? means ?root, a radish or the root of various other plants (esp. of Arum Campanulatum, of long pepper, and of Costus Speciosus or Arabicus), basis, foundation, cause, origin, commencement,beginning?. Now what was the root being worshipped by these people? The clue is given by a Tamil lexicon of 8/9 century CE, ?tivAkaram?. According to this lexicon, "mUlam kantam kizaGku en2a mozipa" (tivAkaram 791) This can be translated as "They say that mUla and kanda are (synonyms of) kizaGku (tuberous roots)". This means that when the Vedic poets were using the word ?mUla? they could have meant ?kanda?. Now kanda according to Monier-Williams refers to ?a bulbuous or tuberous root, the bulbuous root of Amorphophallus Campanulatus, garlic, swelling, knot, an affection of the female organ (considered as a fleshy excrescence, but apparently prolapsus uteri, W.), name of a metre (of four lines of thirteen syllables each), (in mus.) a kind of time'. According to Dr. Wilbert Hetterscheid, an aroider, both names, Amorphophallus Campanulatus and Arum Campanulatum, refer to the same plant, of which the proper name is Amorphophallus paeoniifolius. (This is called suran/jamikand in Hindi and cEn2ai in Tamil.) So the author of the Tamil lexicon knew what he was talking about. The interesting thing about Amorphophallus Campanulatus is that it is the closest to a ?linga? that nature produces. According to Dr. Hetterscheid, the word Amorphophallus means shapeless phallus and refers to the shape of the spadix of the first ever species assigned to this genus, which happens to be the very Am. paeoniifolius we are discussing. "campanulatus" means bell-shaped, referring to the shape of the spathe and Paeoniifolius means "with a Paeonia like leaf". When full-grown, the plant reaches a height of 2 meters and it is like a pillar or post. The diameter of the ?pillar? can be upto 20 cm. The root is "Depressed globose; dark brown, with conspicuous annular root scars and several fusiform offsets; weighing to some 25 K." In fact, the shape of the root is very much like the yoni portion of the composite lingas. For a picture of the tuber, visit the following web site. http://www.premier.net/~chapman/tuber.jpg The words ?kandarpa? meaning ?membrum virile? and ?kandarpa kupa? meaning ?pudendum muliebre? suggest the symbolic affiliation of ?kanda? to human reproductory organs . In Malayalam, ?kantu? means ?membrum muliebre? (DEDR 1210). . In Tamil, the word ?kantu/kantam? referred to a ?pillar, post? (DEDR 1723). Classical Tamil texts mention pillars that were worshipped as well as pillars/posts that were used to chain the elephants. Now did the yAtudhanas really worship the root or did they worship something else? There are three possibilities. Scenario 1 The yAtudhAnas used Amorphophallus Campanulatus in their worship rituals. They might have used the plant to represent lingas or yonis. Scenario 2 The yAtudhAnas used lingas/yonis in their worship rituals. The Vedic poets were using euphemism to refer to the lingas/yonis as mUlas/mUras instead of their real names. Scenario 3 The yAtudhanas were worshipping the plain pillars ?kantu/kantam? as the Tamils did. The Vedic poets used a synonym for the homophon ?kanda?, i.e., ?mUla/mUra?. Among the three, my feeling is that the second one was the most probable one followed by the first. The Tamil worship of the ?kantu/kantam? was very different from the ?Tantric? tradition. In Tamil tradition, the kantu/kantam could be bare or have some figurines painted/sculpted on it. The worship of the kantu as revealed by Classical Tamil texts was very different in nature and did not involve black magic. This means that the religious tradition described in the Vedic hymns was slightly different. However, if one assumes the tradition to be the pre-Rig Vedic syncretistic one of Dravidian and Aryan cultures (or Dasa culture as identified by Asko Parpola), and that it was Tantric in character, a number of things will fall into place. The words ?mUla? and ?kanda? themselves are supposed to be of Dravidian origin. The simple pillar ?kantu/kantam? of the Dravidians could have been extended by the Dasas as a phallic symbol with a possible representation of a trident on it. This is probably what is being referred to in the RV verse 10.87.10. (In the following discussion, all the RV translations are R. T. H. Griffith?s.) nRcakSA rakSaH pari pashya vikSu tasya trINi pratishRNIhyagrA | tasyAgne pRSTIrharasA shRNIhi tredhAmUlaM yAtudhAnasya vRshca || "Look on the fiend mid men, as Man-beholder: rend thou his three extremities in pieces. Demolish with thy flame his ribs, O Agni, the yAtudhAna?s root destroy thou triply." In this verse, ?mUla? may refer to the linga. The following verse RV 10.87.16 gives another clue about Tantric connections. yaH pauruSeyeNa kraviSA samaN^kte yo ashveyena pashunAyAtudhAnaH | yo aghnyAyA bharati kSIramagne teSAMshIrSANi harasApi vRshca || "The fiend who smears himself with flesh of cattle, with flesh of horses and of human bodies, Who steals the milch-cow?s milk away, O Agni, - tear off the heads of such with fiery fury." Obviously, one cannot smear oneself with flesh. But one can smear oneself with the ash of burnt flesh. I think that is what is meant here. The smearing of ash is common among zaiva cults. Ziva is supposed to have smeared the powder of the burning ground. (The very first hymn composed by the Tamil zaivite devotee tiruJAnacampantar describes him as ?kATuTaiya cuTalaip poTi pUci en uLLam kavar kaLvan? meaning ?the thief who steals my heart having smeared the ash of the cremation ground?.) The participation of the horses in the ritual suggests an Aryan origin of the ritual. Consider the following verse RV 10.87.23. pratyagne mithuna daha yAtudhAnA kimIdinA | saM tvAshishAmi jAbRhyadabdhaM vipra manmabhiH || "Burn thou the paired Kimidins, burn, Agni, the yAtudhAna pairs. I sharpen thee, Infallible, with hymns. O Sage, be vigilant." In this verse, the sexual aspect of the Tantric rituals can be seen. Finally, the following verse RV 10.87.25 seems to suggest yAtudhAnas were probably the priestly members of the people called rakshasas. pratyagne harasA haraH shRNIhi vishvataH prati | yAtudhAnasya rakSaso balaM vi ruja vIryam || "Shoot forth, O Agni, with thy flame: demolish them on every side. Break thou the yAtudhAna?s strength, the vigour of the rakshasas." Thus I feel what we have in RV 7.104 and 10.87 are the closest to a clear proof/description of pre-Vedic Tantric worship. Any comments from list members? Regards S. Palaniappan From jftzgrld at utkux.utcc.utk.edu Fri Jul 25 10:58:19 1997 From: jftzgrld at utkux.utcc.utk.edu (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 06:58:19 -0400 Subject: Vedavid url Message-ID: <161227031660.23782.4114338023522043040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The url is http://www.vedavid.org Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear Netters, > > May I ask, what is the url of the Vedavid site of JR Gardner? > > Thanks in advance. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > > Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no > Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From Ngilcach at aol.com Fri Jul 25 12:51:45 1997 From: Ngilcach at aol.com (Ngilcach at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 08:51:45 -0400 Subject: book arrival Message-ID: <161227031663.23782.17041549841247261269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just recieved my copy of "Jiva Goswani's Tattva-Sandarbha - Sacred India's Philosophy of Ecstasy", by Swami B.V. Tripurari (ISBN 1-886069-12-3). I had to special order it. I am already enjoying this wonderfully mystical & philosophical work. _______________________ Valarie Wisniewski aka Ngilcach From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Fri Jul 25 14:15:56 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 09:15:56 -0500 Subject: Poem from Ciivaka CintaamaNi Message-ID: <161227031669.23782.16236546543812949012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 7/25/97 Thanks, Dr. Lehmann. I studied this Chintamani poem long ago. Vaguely remembering this, I used the theme in first two lines of an akaval on Dosai. Here is my poem on "dosai" - the famous tamil food, in a rather archaic mode. Just like great people are ever humble, paddy plants heavy with grain ears bow their heads. Mixing rice from such a morals-teaching plant together with black grams whose peels remind us of Thirumaal, grinding to a watery paste, fermenting for a day, dosa pancakes are made over a skillet. Getting the dosa as full moon out of the pan is an art! cuulin n^iraiyinaal cuTarmuTi paNin^tu meelin n^ilaiyavar vaazhn^eRi viLakkum caalip payirkkatir caarn^taveN ariciyai maalin vaNNamaam maiyaar uzhuntuTan paalin n^iRampool paTiya araittu oorn^aaL n^anku puLittu vaarkkat toocai vaTTa n^ilaavee. Many Indology netters are visiting India this Summer. Wish them many happy dinners with delicious dOsais! Enjoy! N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov ____________________________________________________________________ 53. col arum cuul pacum paampin_ tooRRam pool, mellavee karu iruntu, iin_Ru, meel alaar celvamee pool, talai niRuvit, teernta nuul, kalvi ceer maantarin_ iRainci, kaayttavee. - ciivaka cintaamaNi ____________________________________________________________________ .--. o .--. .--. .___ _ | .| ______ ._|_ | ____ .____ . | .| ______ .____ |_|__ ( \ || / /\ | | |_ | / /\ \ | | | | || / /\ | | | 0(__/ |_ O \_/ O \/ | | _) \)\/ / | | v_/|__) O \/ | | | \_____/ / o o .--. o _ . .___ . .____ . . __ . . . _____|__| .___ .___ . ( \ | |_|__ | | | | | | | | /\ | | / /\ /\ || | |_ |_|_ | O \_/ (__) | |____ | | | |__|__| |_|/_ |___| O \/ \/ | | _) (_./_)J / |____| / (___/ ___ .--. o .--. o / (_) . __ _ | .| ______ ._|_ | ____ _ . . . ___ . .____ [ _ | | | ( \ || / /\ | | |_ | / /\ \ ( \ | | | | ( / | | | \_(_) |__|__| O \_/ O \/ | | _) \)\/ / O \_/ v_/|__) O L__| | | / o ___ .--. .--. o ___ . .____ . . / \ .___ ._ |_.| ___| .| _ ___ .___ . .___ ( / | | | |_( )_ |_ | | |_ ( V )| ( / || ( \| | |_|_ | |_|_ O L__| | | \. (_) | | _) ____/ O L__| O | | (_./_) |(_./ ) / / \____/ o . __ | | | |__|__| .--. o .--. o o .--. o .___ .____ _ | .| . . . . . | .| .____ .___ .___ ._|_ | .____ |_|_ | | ( \ || | | | | | | || | | |_|_ |_|_ |_|_ | | | (__) | | O \_/ |___| |___| v_/|__) | | (_./_) (_./_) (_./ ) | | / / / o o ___ o .--. .--. .___ .____ .____ .___ .___ / \ ___ . ________ o ._|__| .|__| |_|_ | | | | | |_ |_|_ |_ | ( / | / /\ /\ | ___\_| | | | |_|_| (__) | | | | | _) (_./ ) (_) | O L__| O \/ \/ | \__/ | | | (__) / / / ____ . . / /\ \ | | | \)\/ / v_/|__) .--. o o . __ .____ _ | .| ______ ___ . ________ ________ . __ .____ | | | | | ( \ || / /\ | ( / | / /\ /\ | / /\ /\ | | | | | | |__|__| | | O \_/ O \/ | O L__| O \/ \/ | O \/ \/ | |__|__| | | o o o . __ ____ . __ . . .____ .____ o. | . . .___ .___ . | | | / /\ \ | | | | | | | | | | _) | |_( )_ | |_ |_|_ | |__|__| \)\/ / |__|__| v_/|__) | | | | (_____ \ \. | _) (_./_)J / \__/ (___/ o . ______ | / /\ | |____ O \/ | .--. o .--. o ___ . . .____ _ | .| ______ ._|_ | ._ _. . __ / (_) . . .____ | | | | ( \ || / /\ | | |_ | ( V ) | | | [ _ | | | | |___| | | O \_/ O \/ | | _) ____/ |__|__| \_(_) |___| | | / o o _ . . . . . . o ____ .____ .___ .___ . ( \ | | | | /\ | | | ___\_| / /\ \ | | |_|_ |_|_ | O \_/ |___| |_|/_ v_/|__) \__/ | \)\/ / | | (_./ ) (_./_)J / / / (___/ ._. o o o .--. / \ .____ .___ .____ _ ___ .___ ______ . .___ . . _ |__| () ._) | | | |_ | | ( \| | | |_ / /\ | | |_|_ | | ( \| | | o \ | | | _) | | O | | | _) O \/ | |(_./ ) |___| O | | \__/ / \____/ | o .___ .___ . |_|_ |_|_ | (_./ ) (_./_)J / (___/ o o o ___ ___ . .____ .____ .___ .___ .___ / (_) .___ .____ ____ .___ ( / | | | | | |_|_ |_|_ |_|_ [ _ |_|_ | | / /\ \ |_|_ O L__| | | | | (_./_) (_./_) (_./ ) \_(_) (_./ ) | | \)\/ / (__) / / / o .--. ___ ___ . . . ._|_ | _ . .____ / (_) ___ . ( / | | | | |_ | ( \ | | | [ _ ( / | O L__| |____ |____ | _) O \_/ | | \_(_) O L__| o From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Jul 25 07:21:56 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 09:21:56 +0200 Subject: Vedavid url Message-ID: <161227031654.23782.12630556905605756753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Netters, May I ask, what is the url of the Vedavid site of JR Gardner? Thanks in advance. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Fri Jul 25 08:53:49 1997 From: steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 10:53:49 +0200 Subject: yudhiSThira Message-ID: <161227031656.23782.11680351180283954158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:41:40 BST, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: >Dear Indologists, > The name of the eldest pAndava seems to be 'steady in the fight' >but he's not a great warrior as bhIma or arjuna ... > Can we understand this nominal compound as 'steady about the >fight', hence 'not giving way to the violence', the 'i' in yudhi- being >perhaps an ancient low grade dative ? Are other names or words ending by >-sthira ? > Advices and/or references would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France Cf., e.g., -- aayudhi.s.thira- (?) N.pr. of a Bodhisattva (EDGERTON BHSD, s.v., p. 102) -- yaudhi.s.thira- "relating to Yudhi.s.thira" ([BOETHLINGK/ROTH] P[etersburger] W[oerterbuch] -- gavi.s.thira- N.pr. of a .R.si (PW 715) ("strong with respect to a cow") -- gaavi.s.thira- (PW 741) -- .rbhu.s.thira- "strong as the .Rbhus" (.Rgveda 8.77.8) -- jaatuu.s.thira- perhaps "ever solid" (.RV 2.23.11) -- bhaavasthira- "rooted in the heart" ("Saakuntala 5.9d, ed. SCHARP!) See also WACKERNAGEL, Altindische Grammatik II.1, pp. 208 and 234. Best regards, Roland. Fachgebiet Indologie FB 11 der Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6 D-35032 Marburg Germany Tel.: +49-6421-282184 Fax: +49-6421-288913 e-mail: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de From d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de Fri Jul 25 09:05:56 1997 From: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 11:05:56 +0200 Subject: Q: A poem from Ciivaka cintaamaNi Message-ID: <161227031658.23782.6458984501535160416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > > I need a poem starting with the word "collarum" from the > Tamil Jaina epic, ciivaka cintaamaNi. Can anyone send that > viruttam for me please? > > The University of Koeln library catalogs, tamil classical texts, > Tamil lexicon cannot be searched nowadays. Can somebody look > into that please? > > Thanks > N. Ganesan Here it is: 53. col arum cuul pacum paampin_ tooRRam pool mellavee karu iruntu iin_Ru meel alaar celvamee pool talai niRuvit teernta nuul kalvi ceer maantarin_ iRainci kaayttavee. ____________________________________________________________________ Thomas Lehmann, e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de South Asia Institute phone: 0049-6221-548908 of the University of Heidelberg, fax: 0049-6221-546338 Dept. of Indology, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany --------------------------------------------------------------------- From falk at ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE Fri Jul 25 12:53:55 1997 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (falk at ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 14:53:55 +0200 Subject: on leave Message-ID: <161227031665.23782.17512284030965054290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Dom, Johanna urges me to write to you, so I take this opportunity to "reply". Johanna is now 15 and thinks intensively about spending some months or even a year abroad. There are some professional "student-shifters", but they are expensive and usually not reliable. Therefore I forward her question: do you know some reliable, interesting, kid-loving family which would take Johanna for some time - while she goes to school at that place? Don't feel obliged. If you say no I tell her you said no and then that was it. At least I can tell her I asked you. She remembers you as a most enterprising and competent father, that is why you were chosen. Dont blame me. All the best, enjoy Malta! Harry From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Jul 25 15:06:23 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 16:06:23 +0100 Subject: yudhiSThira Message-ID: <161227031667.23782.7459373328710736649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:41:40 BST, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > >>Dear Indologists, >> The name of the eldest pAndava seems to be 'steady in the fight' >>but he's not a great warrior as bhIma or arjuna ... >> Can we understand this nominal compound as 'steady about the >>fight', hence 'not giving way to the violence', the 'i' in yudhi- being >>perhaps an ancient low grade dative ? Are other names or words ending by >>-sthira ? >> Advices and/or references would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, >>Dominique I think the answer to the question might be found in YudhiSThira's role as a king. As such his position would be in the centre of the battle, and that is the reason why he was called 'He who is steadfast/immovable in the battle'. Compare the (relative) immobility of the king in the game of chess, who in the same way would deserve the name YudhiSThira though he is not a great fighter. Georg v. Simson From thillaud at unice.fr Fri Jul 25 17:45:14 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 19:45:14 +0200 Subject: yudhiSThira Message-ID: <161227031671.23782.2459857521495952756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:14 +0200 25/07/97, Georg von Simson wrote: >>> The name of the eldest pAndava seems to be 'steady in the fight' >>>but he's not a great warrior as bhIma or arjuna ... >I think the answer to the question might be found in YudhiSThira's role as >a king. As such his position would be in the centre of the battle, and that >is the reason why he was called 'He who is steadfast/immovable in the >battle'. Compare the (relative) immobility of the king in the game of >chess, who in the same way would deserve the name YudhiSThira though he is >not a great fighter. A very simple and interresting idea: I suppose I must agree! I thank S. Krishna and R. Steiner for their answers but I believe there is no more problems with this name. PS (out of line): can I refer to you and your answer in an article (footnote) ? Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From P.Wehmeyer at Uni-Koeln.DE Mon Jul 28 13:59:29 1997 From: P.Wehmeyer at Uni-Koeln.DE (Petra Wehmeyer) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:59:29 +0200 Subject: Tagore/Germany Message-ID: <161227031672.23782.3898389102855472893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, a friend of our institute from India is looking for personal data of some people who worked with Rabindranath Tagore while he was visiting Germany in 1920 and 1930. These people are Helene Meyer- Frank, Marie-Loise Gothein, Hedwig Lachman, Gisela Leister and Annemarie von Putkammer. Can anybody help? Petra Wehmeyer From amccord at ibm.net Tue Jul 29 13:15:27 1997 From: amccord at ibm.net (Andy McCord) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 09:15:27 -0400 Subject: Tagore/Germany Message-ID: <161227031678.23782.6622017536908739959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marie-Loise Gothein is mentioned as the German translator of Gitanjali in a note on page 431 of Krishna Dutta and Andrew Robinson's Rabindranath Tagore: the Myriad-Minded Man. New York: St. Martin's, 1995 and published in England by Bloomsbury Publishing. References to her are mentioned in letters of Kurt Wolff, Karl Jaspers, and Max Weber. Perhaps, the authors of the biography would have more information. Robinson is listed as the literary editor of the Times Education Supplement in London. ---------- > From: Petra Wehmeyer > To: Members of the list > Subject: Tagore/Germany > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 11:23 AM > > Dear listmembers, > > a friend of our institute from India is looking for personal data of some > people who worked with Rabindranath Tagore while he was visiting Germany > in 1920 and 1930. These people are Helene Meyer- Frank, Marie-Loise > Gothein, Hedwig Lachman, Gisela Leister and Annemarie von Putkammer. > Can anybody help? > > > Petra Wehmeyer > From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Jul 29 06:39:27 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 09:39:27 +0300 Subject: Scanning Devanagari Message-ID: <161227031674.23782.13812992870539824074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I forward this query from a colleague. Kindly address your replies to Elena Bashir at: neena at gps.caltech.edu "Is there anything out there that can scan Devanagari and do an OCR type thing on it converting it to a Roman transliteration? Is this still out of the realm of the possible, or is someone working on it? Given the increased interest in textual studies these days, someone might be." Thank you. With nest wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Tue Jul 29 09:29:09 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 10:29:09 +0100 Subject: Roman fonts for Indian languages Message-ID: <161227031676.23782.18005487657310211104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many weeks ago I promised to make a set of high-quality freeware fonts available for Indian language text in Roman transliteration. I must apologise for the long delay in fulfilling this promise: the software I had to use to convert from Type 1 PostScript to the various font formats people actually need on modern machines turned out to be very flaky, and it has taken this long to get acceptable results. (This is very disappointing, as I can easily produce attractive accented Type 1 fonts that can be freely distributed; it is purely conversion of these to TrueType, Mac format, etc. etc. that causes the problems.) Anyway, the fonts now exist, and can be downloaded via ftp from bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk, directory /pub/john/software/fonts; or you can reach them on the web (http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html; follow the "fonts" link). There are two families of fonts: one implements the CSX character set, the other the set designed by Professor Norman. Mac and PC versions are available for both, including both Type 1 and TrueType forms. I shall probably repeat this announcement later in the year, when fewer Indology subscribers are away. -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From P.Wehmeyer at Uni-Koeln.DE Tue Jul 29 13:40:12 1997 From: P.Wehmeyer at Uni-Koeln.DE (Petra Wehmeyer) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 15:40:12 +0200 Subject: Tagore/Germany Message-ID: <161227031680.23782.11423849613747829211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Andy McCord, our friend will be happy to get the news. Thank you for the information. Petra Wehmeyer From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Wed Jul 30 13:25:18 1997 From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 09:25:18 -0400 Subject: HACC indic fonts for MAC Message-ID: <161227031684.23782.15162096242425451083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone tell me where I can get a hold of the HACC fonts for MAC. I tried accessing them through ftp at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu but was unable to get them. It seems that the ftp is no longer there. Thanks From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Wed Jul 30 15:20:17 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 10:20:17 -0500 Subject: Kavignar Sirpi in Chicago Message-ID: <161227031690.23782.17776951376949627944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ***************************** Kavignar 'Sirpi' in Chicago ***************************** Kavignar Dr. Sirpi Balasubramaniam, Head of Dept, Tamil, Bharatiyar university, Coimbatore is visiting Chicago. Well-known poet and Winner of many awards, like Bharatidasan Parisu from Govt. of Tamil Nadu. Once Bharatidasan sang of him: naaTTuth thiRam ennE! naavuuRip pOnEn naan! Also, He has translated many poems from Malayalam. Wrote comparing the poetry of Bharatiyar and VallaththOL. Wrote poetry using themes from science. He has graduated many students who are into Tamil literature research or creative writing. His Tamil literature lecture is at: Marion Hills Recreation Center Darien Park District 133, Plainfield Road Darien, IL 60561 On Aug. 2, 1997 TIME: 12 Noon - 2:30 PM. Those who know Tamil will surely enjoy his presentation. Please plan to attend. N. Ganesan ganesans at uhcl2.cl.uh.edu ######################################### Some of Kavignar Sirpi's Publications ######################################### 1) Cirpi, 1936- Alaiyum cuvatum / Pi. Palacuppiramaniyan (Cirpi). 1. patippu. Civakankai : Annam, 1994. 125 p. ; 23 cm. SUBJECTS: Tamil literature--History and criticism. 2) Cirpi, 1936- Atirai / Cirpi. 2. patippu. Kovai: Kolam Veliyitu, 1993. 102 p. ; 19 cm. SUBJECTS: Verse drama, Tamil. 3) Cirpi, 1936- A comparative study of Bharati and Vallathol / Sirpi Balasubramaniam. 1st ed. Tamil Nadu : Kolam Veliyeedu, 1991. 320 p. ; 22 cm. SUBJECTS: Paratiyar, 1882-1921--Criticism and interpretation. Vallattol, 1878-1958--Criticism and interpretation. Study of the works of Paratiyar, 1882-1921, Tamil poet, and Vallattol, 1878-1958, Malayalam poet. 4) Cirpi, 1936- Curiya nilal / Cirpi. 1. patippu. Civakankai : Annam, 1990. 96 p. ; 19 cm. NOTES: Poems with Scientific themes 5) Cirpi, 1936- Ilakkiyac cintanai / Cirpi. Kolam Veliyitu ; Civakankai : Virpanai urimai, Annam, 1989. 124 p. ; 22 cm. Critical articles on Tamil literature. Includes bibliographical references. 6) Cirpi, 1936- Mauna mayakkankal / Cirpi. 1st ed. Kolam Veliyeedu, 1982. 109 p. ; 19 cm. 7) Cirpi Punnakai pukkum punaikal / Cirpi. 1. patippu. Civakankai : Annam, 1982. 123 p. ; 20 cm. 8) Cirpi Makakavi Parati matippitukal : ayvuk katturaikal / tokuppu, Cirpi. 1. patippu. Civakankai : Virpanai urimai, Annam, 1981. ca. 150 p. ; 22 cm. Paratiyar, 1882-1921--Criticism and interpretation--Addresses, essays, lectures. 9) Kavignar Cirpi manivila malar, 1996 ####################################################################### From jkirk at micron.net Wed Jul 30 16:23:54 1997 From: jkirk at micron.net (jkirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 10:23:54 -0600 Subject: iconographies Message-ID: <161227031692.23782.10889952779828492626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listmembers: I've been trying to find out if there are any known Indian shilpa shastras from the Gupta period on the fashioning of standing Buddha images -- preferably translated into English; or not. Any titles and bibliog data will help. Thanks for any help with this. J. Kirkpatrick jkirk at micron.net From Hrid at aol.com Wed Jul 30 14:56:54 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 10:56:54 -0400 Subject: HACC indic fonts for MAC Message-ID: <161227031686.23782.8583420834778231185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hey Carlos, que pasa? Howard From tatelman at total.net Wed Jul 30 16:02:26 1997 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 11:02:26 -0500 Subject: Text references on 'kalasha/ kumbha/ ghaTa' Message-ID: <161227031688.23782.7028925301407543340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Marianna Kropf's query about kala'sa/kumbha/ghataa: David Gellner's _Monk, Householder, Tantric Priest_ (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1992) has considerable information on the use of the kala'sa in Newar Buddhist rituals. Hope this helps. Joel. Dr. Joel Tatelman, 31 Grenadier Road, Toronto, Canada M6R 1R1 Tel.: (416) 535-4997 E-mail: tatelman at total.net From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 30 21:14:18 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 14:14:18 -0700 Subject: Text references on 'kalasha/ kumbha/ ghaTa' Message-ID: <161227031696.23782.1104932292895311378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might want to take a look at elements of the Kumbha Mela, for which I would suggest: Bonazzoli, Giorgio. Prayaga and its Kumbha Mela". Purana 19: 81-179. 1977. Sax, William S. "Kumbha Mela". The Encyclopedia of Religion, vol. 8: 401-402. Mircea Eliade, editor in chief. New York: Macmillan, 1987. Also, the following book (if I remember correctly) has some ideas about the symbolism of the "puur.na kumbha." Pannikar, Raymond. The Vedic experience : mantramanjari : an anthology of the Vedas for modern man and contemporary celebration / edited and ... Berkeley : University of California Press, 1977. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 02:16 PM 7/30/97 BST, Marianna Kropf wrote: > >Dear members of indology list > >I am working on the use and symbolism(s) of 'kalasha/kumbha/ghata' in the >ritual context. My main stress is on rituals the way they are executed >nowadays. My main three categories are=20 >1) the pot/ vessel/ jar used as recipient of different substances (purified >water, milky products,...) for ritual use; >2) the pot/ vessel/ jar used as (temporary) seat of a deity (male or female) >to be worshipped in this form; >3) The symbolism of an earthen pot explicitly broken during a ritual >(especially antyeshTi). > >Within such an 'All-over-India-topic' I would be very grateful to get some >further references of text material (sources or other) concerning the >following questions: > >a) references to passages dealing with the terms 'kalasha', 'kumbha' or >'ghaTa' in connection with their size/form and material (shilpa shAstras and >others); > >b) references to passages out of philosophical texts and subhAshya dealing >with the vessel/ pot/ jar as a metaphor/ symbol (Advaita and other= > traditions); > >c) passages to compare the vessel/pot/jar with the (human) body; > >d) references of texts/ ritual manuals - exept antyeshTi rituals - where the >breaking of a pot is explicitly described (and interpreted). > >Any hint to one or the other point is most welcome - thank you so much! > > >Marianna Kropf > > >**************************************************************************** >****** >Marianna Kropf >Universit=E4t Bern >Institut f=FCr Religionswissenschaft >L=E4nggassstrasse 51 >CH-3000 Bern 9 > > > > From marianne.kropf at theol.unibe.ch Wed Jul 30 12:26:01 1997 From: marianne.kropf at theol.unibe.ch (Marianna Kropf) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 14:26:01 +0200 Subject: Text references on 'kalasha/ kumbha/ ghaTa' Message-ID: <161227031682.23782.3127072788132413164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of indology list I am working on the use and symbolism(s) of 'kalasha/kumbha/ghata' in the ritual context. My main stress is on rituals the way they are executed nowadays. My main three categories are 1) the pot/ vessel/ jar used as recipient of different substances (purified water, milky products,...) for ritual use; 2) the pot/ vessel/ jar used as (temporary) seat of a deity (male or female) to be worshipped in this form; 3) The symbolism of an earthen pot explicitly broken during a ritual (especially antyeshTi). Within such an 'All-over-India-topic' I would be very grateful to get some further references of text material (sources or other) concerning the following questions: a) references to passages dealing with the terms 'kalasha', 'kumbha' or 'ghaTa' in connection with their size/form and material (shilpa shAstras and others); b) references to passages out of philosophical texts and subhAshya dealing with the vessel/ pot/ jar as a metaphor/ symbol (Advaita and other traditions); c) passages to compare the vessel/pot/jar with the (human) body; d) references of texts/ ritual manuals - exept antyeshTi rituals - where the breaking of a pot is explicitly described (and interpreted). Any hint to one or the other point is most welcome - thank you so much! Marianna Kropf **************************************************************************** ****** Marianna Kropf Universit?t Bern Institut f?r Religionswissenschaft L?nggassstrasse 51 CH-3000 Bern 9 From silk at wmich.edu Wed Jul 30 19:17:34 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 15:17:34 -0400 Subject: inquiry about Qvarnstrom article Message-ID: <161227031694.23782.8109123592847236101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is an inquiry for a friend of mine (who perhaps I should not name; anyway, it's not me!). He tells me he has notes from an article by someone named "Qvarnstrom" on Bhartrhari and his connection with Buddhism. Unfortunately my friend has lost the reference. I suggested that it might have been in the Etudes Asiatiques volume dedicated to Bhartrhari, but neither he nor I have access to that at present. I suppose that it has happened to most of us at one time or another than we take notes thinking we will never forget the reference, only to lay the project aside for a time, and come back to it drawing a blank on certain vital matters. Does anyone know what this article might be? (My friend mentioned on the phone that he had page references, but he did not tell them to me; sorry). Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From mrabe at artic.edu Thu Jul 31 01:40:31 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 20:40:31 -0500 Subject: iconographies Message-ID: <161227031698.23782.8400923663525531670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't think you'll find a Gupta period text on the stated subject. But probably no one has inferred more about what such texts are likely to have said from careful analysis of the physical images themselves than John Mosteller: Mosteller, John F. _ The measure of form : a new approach for the study of Indian sculpture_ New Delhi : Abhinav Publications, 1991. Description: xxx, 291 p., [119] p. of plates : ill., map ; 28 cm. Notes: Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--University of Pennsylavania, 1986). Includes indexes. >I've been trying to find out if there are any known Indian shilpa >shastras from the Gupta period on the fashioning of standing Buddha >images -- preferably translated into English; or not. Any titles and >bibliog data will help. > >Thanks for any help with this. > >J. Kirkpatrick >jkirk at micron.net From apandey at u.washington.edu Thu Jul 31 08:32:24 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 01:32:24 -0700 Subject: HACC indic fonts for MAC Message-ID: <161227031700.23782.3567768170395887003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The BLACKBOX server was shutdown quite some time ago. Some files from that server were moved over to the Indology archive. Tom Ridgeway developed the Washington Romanized Indic (WNRI) fonts which are available in Metafont, TrueType, and Postscript formats. If these are the HACC fonts you are referring to then you may get them from the Indology file area. If not, then I can ask the folks at CARTAH (formerly known as HACC) for further details. Regards, Anshuman Pandey On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Carlos Lopez wrote: > Can someone tell me where I can get a hold of the HACC fonts for MAC. I > tried accessing them through ftp at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu but was > unable to get them. It seems that the ftp is no longer there. From gldnreef at primenet.com Thu Jul 31 14:10:15 1997 From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 07:10:15 -0700 Subject: Dhaatuko'sa Message-ID: <161227031702.23782.14877942997239183809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List: I am about to embark on a research project that looks at the importance of the __Dhaatupaa.tha__ in the revival of Indian grammar. I will start with the debate between Whitney and Bhandarkar and from there expand my examination. My principal source has been Frits Staal's __Reader on the Sanskrit Grammarians__: beyond that, I've not had much success. Any source that muses on the Dhaatupa.tha would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. W. Trimble From amccord at ibm.net Thu Jul 31 16:28:43 1997 From: amccord at ibm.net (Andy McCord) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 12:28:43 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Indian Poets Message-ID: <161227031706.23782.17416511066832834623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For South Asian entries in a Routledge biographical dictionary of 20th Centry poetry I am seeking advice for literatures I'm not familiar with. The entries are to be very short, giving dates and major works and life events. I expect they will not be able to include more than 15-20 poets from the Indian subcontinent. My list, from which some may have to be winnowed, so far includes Muhammad Iqbal & Faiz Ahmed Faiz (Urdu), Mahadevi Verma and Nirala (Hindi), Rabindranath Tagore (Bengali), Arun Mhatre (Marathi), and A.K. Ramanujan and Nissim Ezekiel (English). Any advice on who I have overlooked in these languages and who to look into for Tamil, Telegu, Kannada, Malyalam, Gujarati, Punjabi, etc., would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Andy McCord amccord at ibm.net From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Thu Jul 31 14:13:26 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 17:13:26 +0300 Subject: SOS: Help Acta Orientalia Message-ID: <161227031704.23782.10567543995224931126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ACTA ORIENTALIA, a journal founded in 1922 and published annually under the auspices of the Oriental Societies of Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, is devoted to the study of the languages, history, archaeology and religions of the Orient from the earliest times to our days. It is issued once a year, and each issue normally contains at least 300 pages. This well-known journal is now on the verge of ceasing publication. The Nordic Publications Board for Humanistic Periodicals funding the journal has stipulated that a conditio sine qua non is that the journal has a minimum of 200 subscribers. Due to tightening budgets the world over, the number of subscriptions has been steadily dropping and is now very close to that limit. If your library is not already subscribing to Acta Orientalia, please make a suggestion to that effect. The annual subscription rate is 420 Danish crowns (DKK) (around 70 USD), and the subscription order can be placed at MUNKSGAARD International Publishers Ltd, POB 2148, DK-1016 Copenhagen K, Denmark (tel. +45 33 12 70 30, fax +45 33 12 93 87) or at their regional office in the US: MUNKSGAARD, 238 Main Street, Cambridge, MA 02142-9740 (tel +1-617-547-7665, fax +1-617-547-7489). Every subscription counts!!! Thanks in advance for your efforts to help AO survive. Yours, Asko Parpola From Andreas.Schuettler at Uni-Koeln.DE Thu Jul 31 20:49:16 1997 From: Andreas.Schuettler at Uni-Koeln.DE (Andreas Schuettler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 22:49:16 +0200 Subject: 20th Century Indian Poets Message-ID: <161227031712.23782.6415481940705398287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Andy Mc Cord, you may want to take the following reference books into consideration: For Indian Writers in general: Who's Who of Indian Writers: 1983, New Delhi, Sahitya Akademi, 1983, 731p. (Contains biographical and bibliographical information about nearly 6000 living writers in 22 indian languages including English.) Who's Who of Indian Writers, Supplementary Volume: 1990, New Delhi, Sahitya Akademi, 1993, 249p. (Contains biographical and bibliographical information about nearly 1800 living writers in 22 indian languages including English.) Sahitya Akademi Awards, Books and Writers 1955-1978, New Delhi, Sahitya Akademi, 1990, 546p. For Tamil Writers in particular: Kamil V. Zvelebil, Lexicon of Tamil Literature, Leiden, New York, Koeln, E. J. Brill, 1994, 783p. S.V. Subramanian, N. Ghadigachalam, ed., The Tamil Writers Directory, Madras, International Institute of Tamil Studies, 1981, 256p. (Contains 1417 Tamil Writers and more than 3000 titles.) From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de Thu Jul 31 23:06:11 1997 From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (Narahari Rao) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 01:06:11 +0200 Subject: 20th Century Indian Poets Message-ID: <161227031707.23782.3507207719614712036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:31 31.07.97 BST, you wrote: >For South Asian entries in a Routledge biographical dictionary of 20th >Centry poetry I am seeking advice for literatures I'm not familiar with. >The entries are to be very short, giving dates and major works and life >events. I expect they will not be able to include more than 15-20 poets >from the Indian subcontinent. My list, from which some may have to be >winnowed, so far includes Muhammad Iqbal & Faiz Ahmed Faiz (Urdu), Mahadevi >Verma and Nirala (Hindi), Rabindranath Tagore (Bengali), Arun Mhatre >(Marathi), and A.K. Ramanujan and Nissim Ezekiel (English). Any advice on >who I have overlooked in these languages and who to look into for Tamil, >Telegu, Kannada, Malyalam, Gujarati, Punjabi, etc., would be greatly >appreciated. > >Thank you, >Andy McCord >amccord at ibm.net > Gopalakrishna Adiga and Da Ra Bendre, can be considered from Kannada Literature for inclusion