From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 1 00:13:32 1997 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 19:13:32 -0500 Subject: rescuing things In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034102.23782.14198672781261011821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Simple suggestion: Instead of talking, one could simply visit a few villages on one's next trip to India, -- in B. Misra's case, Orissa, -- and film/photocopy (important) MSS, make tape recordings of the Vedas, and deposit them at a local library, say at the Puri Skt. University. Of course, one could also donate some money to the local MSS Gavesana Society, at Bhubaneswar. THAT is how one could respect India's heritage. Not by TALKING, however fashionable. MW> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Bijoy Misra wrote: > Anyone thinking of so called "rescue" of documents > from India or the subcontinent is utterly on > the wrong track. .... > ...respect to a country's > heritage and her people. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 1 04:04:52 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 23:04:52 -0500 Subject: rescuing things In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034104.23782.6658478042474735862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Michael Witzel wrote: > > THAT is how one could respect India's heritage. Not by TALKING, > however fashionable. > I agree people have to get more serious to be protected against being "rescued". I will do my bit. To build a repository in Bhubaneswar is a good idea. I will contact people there and pursue the idea. But on the point in question, the assumed guardianship of material on "rescue" missions should be abandoned. One very easily sees the shallowness of such missions. I agree that the conditions in the subcontinent are not the greatest, but it's reasonable to speculate that the material would survive longer than anything else on the planet. Don't people agree? - Bijoy Misra. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 1 04:06:29 1997 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 23:06:29 -0500 Subject: Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project Message-ID: <161227034107.23782.556276139669999909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Thanksgiving vacation allows for a somewhat detailed answer and clarification, and some history: Since there have been few answers, I venture one here. The recent question by D. Wujastyk has been answered about a year ago by a current member of the NGMPP, Anne Macdonald, who has corrected my initial reaction then (FO5A006 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de). It should be in the Indology archives. >> I ask for reactions from members of INDOLOGY who have more intimate connections with this project than I do myself? What *is* the position? Is it truly, as it currently appears, a matter of sheer nationality? << It is unfortunate that, again, the question of the Nepal-DMG agreement and the use of NGMPP microfilms are confounded with nationality -- and this inside the EU! For example, the project has employed,throughout its history, besides Nepalese and Germans, some British, Canadian, French, Indian, Italian nationals and maybe others. More importantly, based on my five years as director of the NGMPP at the National Archives of Nepal (1972-77) and from what I have heard afterwards I can categorically state that we have always tried to help all who asked for assistance, irrespective of nationality. . And we have hosted them at home or in the Nepal Research Center (run under the aegis of the DMG), again irrespective of nationality. The problem of the films, if it exists, is one of the *original agreement* of a quarter century ago. And that was difficult enough to negotiate. The agreement clearly speaks about the use of the films by the "the German Oriental Society" (DMG) not "members of the DMG". I may dig out the exact wording from my basement if the file has not been destroyed in recent flooding. ("rescuing and preservation" also here, where even the floods are bigger and better!) But from my years at the NGMPP and at the National Archives I know that the *interpretation* of the agreement *at Kathmandu* depends a little on the winds prevailing there at the moment in question. (Therefore my initial more "liberal" reaction about a year ago). Mostly, the good relationship between the two parties will allow to speed up things. If some local political mischief intervenes, NOT. --- POLITICS, as everywhere. The only, and ALSO the *safest* and easiest way is to apply to the National Archives, pay the cost for the film & the "MS tax" (it used to be some 0.75 cents US$ per folio; I don't know the present rate). If you send a copy of your application to the Director of the project (NGMPP, POB 180, Kathmandu), the NGMPP has ALWAYS been happy and, I am sure, still will be willing to help you out and facilitate a quick turn around. (Not 2 or more months as with many European libraries). However, the *offical* procedure has to go through the Archives. (Chief Research Scholar, National Archives, Ram Shah Path, Kathmandu, Nepal). All of that was stated clearly a year ago or so, by Anne Macdonald (FO5A006 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de) Therefore, H.O. Feistel is right when he says: > that this is explicitly stated in > the Nepal-Germany agreement. But the reason, as stated by R.Torella, is not correct: > The reason is that the Nepalese Archives want > to reserve for themselves only the right to get money for providing > microfilm copies (to non-German scholars). They also want the "copyright". And Germans also have to pay at Kathmandu. I paid for a number of MSS when I was in station, as director of the NGMPP at the very Archives, and also after that, when visiting during the Eighties. Simply, the NATIONAL ARCHIVES retain the right to allow use of the microfilms, the "copyright" if you will. And they take a small tax. MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 1 04:33:14 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 10:03:14 +0530 Subject: indology mss. Message-ID: <161227034109.23782.17924054493400553317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Bijoy Misra responded to Michael Witzel: > THAT is how one could respect India's heritage. Not by TALKING, > however fashionable. > >I agree people have to get more serious to be protected against >being "rescued". I will do my bit. >To build a repository in Bhubaneswar is a good idea. >I will contact people there and pursue the idea. >But on the point in question, the assumed guardianship of material> >on "rescue" missions should be abandoned. One very easily sees >the shallowness of such missions. I agree that the conditions >in the subcontinent are not the greatest, but it's reasonable >to speculate that the material would survive longer than anything >else on the planet. Don't people agree? I do not know if it is right for Nepal Govt. to demand a price... Maybe, both Nepal and India Govts. should demand that world citizens/ american universities and other institutions should help UNESCO preserve the ancient mss. as world heritage documents, just as world heritage sites are sought to be preserved as national monuments... Maybe the developed country institutions can do a lot more in making the docs. available freely on the internet as UPEnn is attempting to do... Sarasvati Sindhu Research Centre, Chennai will be willing to digitize and 'webbify' in cooperation with librarires... Internet has the potential to be used by indologists as the indology library on demand. I agree with Bijoy; 'rescue' is not the bon mot. It can be replaced by 'preserve, protect and disseminate'. Regards, Kalyanaraman From thillaud at UNICE.FR Mon Dec 1 09:15:27 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 10:15:27 +0100 Subject: tIrthAbhiSekam saphalam (was Re: Potalaka) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19971130224333.2ec75a50@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034111.23782.4976148555464151871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:14 +0100 30/11/97, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >As far as I know abhiSEka to an idol is done with water, milk, clarified >butter >(ghee), honey, curds, sometimes cocoanut water etc. being poured on the idol. >Usually a waist cloath is tied to a male idol and female idol is fully >covered during abhiSEka. abhiSEka is done to ziva linga every day. The >saying is >`alankAra priyO viSNur abhiSEka priyO zivah'. > >Even rAjyAbhiSEka for kings is not done with a few drops because purANAs >describe that water from the holy rivers is brought with kalazAs. I thank you for this precisions but it seems that was not the unique form of the abhiSEka. See MBh I, 206 where YudhiSThira is going to the 'puNyAni tIrthAni' of Hardwar. It is said (v.11): abhiSekAya kaunteyo gangAm avatatAra ha and, immediatly after: tatra abhiSekam kRtvA sa ... Is it impossible to understand from the use of ava-tR- that he goes himself in the GangA's water ? And the mahezvara's declaration (MBh XIII, 18, 36) I've used for the subject seems to going towards the same interpretation. I was perhaps misoriented by the English word 'bath' (in French, the 'bain' suppose an immersion of the body in the water, not just a superficial cleaning) but my question is: in ANCIENT Indian religion, the ritual performed at places such saras or tIrtha: - can suppose complete immersion ? - can be named abhiSeka ? - can be used for statues of Goddesses as it happens in ancient Greece ? >The word `tripura' symbolises sthUla, sUkSma, and kAraNa bodies of the soul. >tripurasundari is atman which resides in and activates these three bodies. >Lord ziva is supposed to have destroyed the tripuras i.e., penetrated the >three bodies and released the soul. ziva's tripurAsura samhArA is a famous >story in most of the purANAs. The whole story is supposed to be allegorical. I known the ziva's story and His name tripuraghna, but I don't understand how it can explain the name tripurasundarI and I was not searching for a theological but for a mythical explanation (where sundarI has simply the meaning 'woman'). Please, don't see any offense against your religion (we have probably the same pitaras), but my scope is the archaic forms of It and I subscribed to Indology with comparativist intentions. My main interrest for the name tripurasundarI is that it can perhaps (?) explain some obscure Greek names as Tripolis, tripolos, Triptolemos or Tritogeneia. Namaste, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Hrid at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 16:14:42 1997 From: Hrid at AOL.COM (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 11:14:42 -0500 Subject: Greetings Message-ID: <161227034119.23782.11115134617427519068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am posting this message on behalf of a colleague who isn't on this list. Please reply directly to him at: Thank you very much. Howard Resnick >I need to find out ASAP how to get in touch with Jeffrey M. Masson, who was >a Sanskrit professor at UC Berkeley and U of Toronto. I'd be very grateful >for any help in this matter. From apzwww at UNIX.CCC.NOTTINGHAM.AC.UK Mon Dec 1 12:19:18 1997 From: apzwww at UNIX.CCC.NOTTINGHAM.AC.UK (J Ganeri) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 12:19:18 +0000 Subject: Two lectures in Indian Philosophy In-Reply-To: <199705301840.OAA27030@testpin.engin.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227034113.23782.10174857626205901329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two lectures in Indian Philosophy will take place on Friday 12th December at King's College London: 1pm Prof. ARINDAM CHAKRABARTI The Bimal Matilal Lecture. 'Falsity, Felicity and Freedom' Lecture Room, Philosophy Department. A lecture and discussion on moksa in comparison to Plato's Philebus. 5pm Prof. CHATURVEDI BADRINATH 'Moksa as Human Freedom', Room 1B06. The third in a sequence of Birla Memorial Lectures. All welcome. Contact Jonardon.Ganeri at nottingham.ac.uk for more details. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Dec 1 12:46:29 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 12:46:29 +0000 Subject: Unexpected removal from the INDOLOGY list Message-ID: <161227034115.23782.12642871086278675261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is just a little administrative note about those times when your subscription to INDOLOGY may be cancelled without your knowledge. This happens about once a week to someone or other on this list. Sometimes email programs run amuck, or we change addresses (or have them changed on our behalf, unbeknown), our account disk space fills up, or other glitches happen that affect incoming email. If a glitch causes your email to bounce, then the system operators at Liverpool (Alan Thew and Chris Wooff) start to receive a deluge of returned INDOLOGY messages that "can't be delivered" to you. They then email you about the problem, but that email also gets bounced back to them, as "undeliverable". At that point, the only thing that can be done is to remove you from the INDOLOGY distribution list. You can easily re-subscribe when the problem is solved and, thanks to the new WWW list archive, you can easily catch up on what you may have missed. Subjectively, what happens is that you notice your email system is a bit weird, perhaps. The next this is that you find you are no longer receiving INDOLOGY messages. A quick check shows that your subscription is cancelled. You get indignant and hurt. You call your lawyer and explore your rights .... I hope this explanation will help to forestall any confusion or worry if this happens to you one day. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 -- "To vacillate or not to vacillate, that is the question ... or is it?" From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 1 17:08:47 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 17:08:47 +0000 Subject: tIrthAbhiSekam saphalam (was Re: Potalaka) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034121.23782.13317924568091307659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:15 AM 12/1/97 +0100, Dominique.Thillaud writes: >At 18:14 +0100 30/11/97, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >>As far as I know abhiSEka to an idol is done with water, milk, clarified >>butter >>(ghee), honey, curds, sometimes cocoanut water etc. being poured on the idol. >>Usually a waist cloath is tied to a male idol and female idol is fully >>covered during abhiSEka. abhiSEka is done to ziva linga every day. The >>saying is >>`alankAra priyO viSNur abhiSEka priyO zivah'. >> >>Even rAjyAbhiSEka for kings is not done with a few drops because purANAs >>describe that water from the holy rivers is brought with kalazAs. > > I thank you for this precisions but it seems that was not the >unique form of the abhiSEka. See MBh I, 206 where YudhiSThira is going to >the 'puNyAni tIrthAni' of Hardwar. It is said (v.11): >abhiSekAya kaunteyo gangAm avatatAra ha >and, immediatly after: >tatra abhiSekam kRtvA sa ... > Is it impossible to understand from the use of ava-tR- that he goes >himself in the GangA's water ? > And the mahezvara's declaration (MBh XIII, 18, 36) I've used for >the subject seems to going towards the same interpretation. > I was perhaps misoriented by the English word 'bath' (in French, >the 'bain' suppose an immersion of the body in the water, not just a >superficial cleaning) but my question is: > in ANCIENT Indian religion, the ritual performed at places such >saras or tIrtha: > - can suppose complete immersion ? What one does in a tIrtha is snAna. One immerses his whole body including head under water. In current usage(?) this is not called abhiSEka. abhiSEka is usally performed by some body else to the person who is undergoing it. It is snapana rather than snAna. But the slokas you have quoted from MBh about arjuna (not ydhiSThira) have to be carefully gone into. It looks as though the word abhiSEka has been used for snAna. But the following slokas from a slightly earlier chapter clarify what I am saying. ( I am not giving chapter and verse because I do not have the critical edition) dhRtarASTra uvAcha abhiSEkasya sambhArAn kSattarAnaya mA chiram abhiSiktam kariSyAmi adya vai kurunandanam .......................................... aSTottarasahasram tu brAhmNAdhiSTitA gajAh jAhnavIsalilam zIghramAnayantu purOhitaih abhiSEkOdakaklinnam sarvAbharaNabhUSitam ....................................... dRsTvA kuntIsutam jyESThamAjamIDham yudhiSThiram prItAh prItEna manasA prazansantu purE janAh. > - can be named abhiSeka ? See above. > - can be used for statues of Goddesses as it happens in ancient >Greece ? I am not wellversed in the Greek religion. I cannot say. regards, sarma. From Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI Mon Dec 1 18:02:32 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 20:02:32 +0200 Subject: Tripurasundari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034123.23782.11808636952169286525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I known the ziva's story and His name tripuraghna, but I don't >understand how it can explain the name tripurasundarI and I was not >searching for a theological but for a mythical explanation (where sundarI >has simply the meaning 'woman'). > Please, don't see any offense against your religion (we have >probably the same pitaras), but my scope is the archaic forms of It and I >subscribed to Indology with comparativist intentions. My main interrest for >the name tripurasundarI is that it can perhaps (?) explain some obscure >Greek names as Tripolis, tripolos, Triptolemos or Tritogeneia. > > Namaste, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France I have given one historical answer in my paper "The coming of the Aryans to Iran and India and the cultural and ethnic identity of the Daasas", published in Studia Orientalia vol. 64, 1988, pp. 195-302. See especially the chapters entitled "The goddess and the fort" (pp. 256-259) and "The 'autumnal fort' and Zambara" (pp. 259-264). With best regards, Asko Parpola Asko Parpola ------ e-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki From g53772 at SAKURA.KUDPC.KYOTO-U.AC.JP Mon Dec 1 14:59:27 1997 From: g53772 at SAKURA.KUDPC.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Muneo TOKUNAGA) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 23:59:27 +0900 Subject: Kodama's email address Message-ID: <161227034117.23782.4052015673645391476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Please allow me once only to use Indology for personal communication.) Dear Prof. Bh.Krishnamurti, You complain that you do not get a reply from Japan. Something is wrong about the connection between India and Japan. I have sent my mail repeatedly, but every time it has been rejected. I am trying to find the e-mail address of Kodama-kun. Please be patient a little more. It was very nice to hear from you anyway. With best regards, =============================================== Muneo TOKUNAGA Professor of Indian Philosophy Graduate School of Letters, Kyoto University Kyoto, Japan (606-01). Tel. 075-753-2778 email: g53772 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp =============================================== From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 2 01:59:22 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 97 07:29:22 +0530 Subject: Sarasvati River Message-ID: <161227034125.23782.5283980567712162279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reference: Sarasvati River I am glad to announce a new `path-breaking' website related to new discoveries about Sarasvati river and its civilization. Please browse through http://www.probys.com/sarasvati It is path-breaking because, collaborative indological studies have led to the formulation of Peoples' Development Projects, making the studies meaningful to the lives of millions of people, if properly implemented. The site entertains with slide shows, vivid maps and an image library to celebrate the world heritage of the Vedic Sarasvati River. It also includes an 180-page monograph and a comprehensive bibliography. For a person interested in details, the coverage is an integration of multi-faceted studies: geology, hydrology, glaciology; archaeology, vedic and ancient texts (with translations); indological perspectives from Sanskrit and Tamil literary sources; analyses of remote sensing images and synoptic(mosaic) views from space; tritium analysis by nuclear physicists to confirm the ancient coursesof the river and groundwater sanctuaries; natural history of the River Basin in N and NW India. The website presents Sarasvati River Basin Development Projects for: groundwater resources, drainage systems in NW India, cultivation in semi-arid and marshy lands of high-income yielding tree-crops and salicornia, sub-surface drainage systems and afforestation to control salinity and ongoing desertification. Obviously, we need a lot of help from professionals like you and other people interested in cherishing our heritage and further developing the region. Please forward the message to your friends interested in the topic. If you need any additional information and details please send me a message at kalyan97 at yahoo.com or call me in US, Tel. 1 510 793 8485 (till mid-January '98). You can as well write to me at this address: Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, 19 Temple Avenue, Srinagar Colony Saidapet, Chennai 600015, India; Tel. +91 44 2354640; I am also available to visit your institute for presentations or further discussion on this important subject. Sincerely, Dr. Kalyanraman kalyan97 at yahoo.com From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Tue Dec 2 16:09:23 1997 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 97 11:09:23 -0500 Subject: IITS - Univ. of Koeln Website Message-ID: <161227034127.23782.884036846770574675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vanhakkam Dr. Ganesan I have difficulty in going to a Tamil Lexicon and hence approached Dr. Velu of Upssala. He has suggested you. However, since your above posting I did not want to trouble you. I will await the Lexicon to come on line. Even then I doubt as my computer is a PS1 upgraded to 486 with a 28.8 modem and I am on AOL latest version as my internet server. There are times my modem connection get stopped while hunting. Some downloads never come down. Any suggestion other than replace computer for now. I remember, Dr. Velu in one of his papers suggested that Tamilology? should be included as a section under Indology or a separate entity altogeather. I wonder any follow up is in the offing. I am studying 'mozhiNUl' by Dr. Mu. Varatharasan amidst my eagerness to complete Perungkavikko Va. Mu. Sethuraman's Ph.D. Thesis before 1988 - a yeoman task but very instructive and a pleasure. The quality of the end product as judged by persons of your Tamil love and experties will determine whether it merits publication. NanRi anpudan Shan. December 2, 1997. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Dec 3 03:02:38 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 97 21:02:38 -0600 Subject: bodhi In-Reply-To: <199711260448.NAA02148@mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227034131.23782.17316086113035473624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hesitate to enlist help with a passaage so seemingly straightforward as the following, but it is not easy to take issue with herr Geldner. What does anyone suggest for bodhi in RV 5.4.9 (from Van Nooten and Holland, 1994): asmaa'kam bodhi avitaa' tanuu'naam | cf. Geldner (HOS 1951, III: 7) "sei der Beschutzer unserer Leiber"-- I'm sure I am missing something obvious . . . but I have trouble fitting both tanuunaam and bodhi in light of Geldner's reading. Muir doesn't treat it, nor does Elizarenkova or Maurer, sadly (as also with 2.9.2 below). I also don't get Beschutzer (unless via the tree/der Baum, i.e. that the Buddha sat beneath, but htis feels like a stretch) from Bothlingk (1879, Vol IV, p. 234), Mylius (1975: 330), Suryakanta (1981: 492), Mayrhoffer (1963, II: 449), or Grassman (1996: 907). Similarly, cf. 2.9.2c-d (from Van Nooten & Holland 1994): a'gne toka'sya nas ta'ne tanuu'naam | a'prayuchan dii'diyad bodhi gopaa'H With Geldner (HOS #33, 1951: 284): "O Agni, sei du mit deinem Lichte der unablassige Schutzer zer Fortdauer unseres Samens, unserer eingenen Personen!" While I am willingly anxious to solve this question, even at the expense of being wrong, it would seem that the role of Agni as garbha, et al in plants and living things (RV 2.1.1; 14; 3.1.13; as generator or engenderer 3.2.10; 7.5.7; 3.6.2; 5; 6.8.3; 7.5.4 [cf. also Norman Brown, JAOS 51, 1931, 108-118, Sources and Nature of puruSa in the PuruSasuukta]), would attest to the more standard renderings of awaken or--even--quicken. While discussion is welcome, for the sake of the list, and its recent meta-debates, at this point, I am asking about translation moreso than etymologies of -budh. tyia jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Dec 3 03:39:40 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 97 21:39:40 -0600 Subject: bodhi- correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034133.23782.10803290021454236109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I composed this across two different days and left out that Beschutzer is Geldner's obvious reading for avitaa'-- hence obfuscating my original question for the list as to bodhi. I have inserted teh necessary correction with "****correction**** to the original post below. Consider me to have rightly flamed myself herewith. On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, JR Gardner [**mistakenly**] wrote: > I hesitate to enlist help with a passaage so seemingly straightforward as > the following, but it is not easy to take issue with herr Geldner. What > does anyone suggest for bodhi in RV 5.4.9 (from Van Nooten and Holland, > 1994): > > asmaa'kam bodhi avitaa' tanuu'naam | > > cf. Geldner (HOS 1951, III: 7) "sei der Beschutzer unserer Leiber"-- I'm > sure I am missing something obvious . . . but I have trouble fitting both > tanuunaam and bodhi in light of Geldner's reading. Muir doesn't treat it, > nor does Elizarenkova or Maurer, sadly (as also with 2.9.2 below). > > I also don't get Beschutzer (unless via the tree/der Baum, i.e. that the > Buddha sat beneath, but htis feels like a stretch) ****correction**** as avitaa' with bodhi based upon what I get ****end correction**** > from Bothlingk (1879, Vol IV, p. 234), Mylius (1975: 330), Suryakanta > (1981: 492), Mayrhoffer (1963, II: 449), or Grassman (1996: 907) for > bodhi. > > Similarly, cf. 2.9.2c-d (from Van Nooten & Holland 1994): > > a'gne toka'sya nas ta'ne tanuu'naam | > a'prayuchan dii'diyad bodhi gopaa'H > > With Geldner (HOS #33, 1951: 284) where we don't have avitaa' and I am still not getting bodhi clearly: > > "O Agni, sei du mit deinem Lichte der unablassige Schutzer zer Fortdauer > unseres Samens, unserer eingenen Personen!" > > While I am willingly anxious to solve this question, even at the expense > of being wrong, it would seem that the role of Agni as garbha, et al in > plants and living things (RV 2.1.1; 14; 3.1.13; as generator or engenderer > 3.2.10; 7.5.7; 3.6.2; 5; 6.8.3; 7.5.4 [cf. also Norman Brown, JAOS 51, > 1931, 108-118, Sources and Nature of puruSa in the PuruSasuukta]), would > attest to the more standard renderings of awaken or--even--quicken. > > While discussion is welcome, for the sake of the list, and its recent > meta-debates, at this point, I am asking about translation moreso than > etymologies of -budh. > > tyia > > jrg > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > John Robert Gardner Obermann Center > School of Religion for Advanced Studies > University of Iowa University of Iowa > 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 > http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other > than that of which it is the transformation. > From stautzebach at METRONET.DE Tue Dec 2 21:50:50 1997 From: stautzebach at METRONET.DE (stautzebach) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 97 22:50:50 +0100 Subject: A New Prakrit Dialect Message-ID: <161227034129.23782.17777382881069407344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On "http://www.sai-uni-heidelberg.de/pub/b151-200" a creative-web-designed page listing some books published by the SAI Heidelberg I found my thesis titled with "Priik and Sarvasamataik". This may be considered a western Prakrit-Dialect omitting each non-latin letter. As you know the term "Priik" may also be written as "Paarishikshaa" or "Parisiksa" or something like this. Perhaps Altavista will know some day too. I hope the SAI Heidelberg (South-Asia-Institute (including indology)) will continue to develop western Prakrit for the benefit of indological research. Ralf Stautzebach (stautzebach at metronet.de) From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 3 12:15:28 1997 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 07:15:28 -0500 Subject: Possible future panel: textual dating. (fwd) Message-ID: <161227034149.23782.9460629457897755731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I would like to suggest the following possible topic for a future AAR (or Madison) panel: "Dating of Sanskrit texts: old assumptions, new evaluations" (or some such thing). Dennis Hudson has been doing very interesting and innovative work based on his analysis of the iconography of the Vaikuntha Perumal temple at Kanchipuram (which suggests a more ancient date for parts of the Bhagavat Purana than has generally been accepted by critical scholarship) and is willing to present some of his conclusions. I would like to present a paper on how scholars ascertained the commonly accepted dates for the early Vedic literature and discuss some of the challenges to such dating (especially focusing on an analysis of the astro-chronological claims in this regard). Anyone else interested in presenting a paper connected with textual dating that might resonate with the above two topics? Hope you are all well, Edwin Bryant From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 3 14:30:44 1997 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 09:30:44 -0500 Subject: bodhi- correction In-Reply-To: <34852450.53A1@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227034154.23782.202931768157251067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Mr. Gardner, > >Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with Vedic literature and language. But >maybe it could be helpful to link bodhi in those cases to bhU (cf. for >instance Whitney's Roots and Monier-Williams sub bhU; ) rather than to budh. > >Best wishes, >Horst Lasic MacDonell's (larger) *Vedic Grammar* cites bodhi' as a root aorist imperative 2nd singular active of either bhuu or budh (#505 c and note 3 on page 370). Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Dec 3 17:52:38 1997 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 09:52:38 -0800 Subject: Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project Message-ID: <161227034136.23782.9642356851311030137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As one of the former Directors of the NGMPP I can only confirm what Michaels Witzel wrote about the situation. The agreement between H.M.G. Nepal and the German Oriental Society was and is for the copy right of their (!) texts and for the (financial) benefit of Nepal that microfilm copies have to be ordered directly from the National Archives. However, to quicken the procedure one can send the order to the NGMPP office in Kathmandu (present director: Dr. Klaus-Dieter Mathes), P.O.Box 180, Kathmandu, who will look after it. Usually it does not take more than a few days to receive a copy in Nepal since the staff is well trained and very cooperative. The rest of the procedure depends on money transfer and mail service (Getting a microfilm copy from Cambridge University Library took me two months recently.) That's it. There are no nationalistic ambitions in it. The NRC and the NGMPP has always been an international institution with no nationalistic restrictions at all. Microfilms are available for anybody in the world, but if the Nepalese side wants to reserve the copy right, one has to respect it. Such are politics. However one could think of an addition tothe agreement that copies can be ordered from Berlin if it is guaranteed that Nepal will get what she would get if the microfilms were send from the National Archives. I don't think that the Nepalese side would object it. I shall send a copy of this e-mail to Prof. Wezler. Best wishes, Axel Michaels Michael Witzel wrote: > > The Thanksgiving vacation allows for a somewhat detailed answer and > clarification, and some history: > Since there have been few answers, I venture one here. > > The recent question by D. Wujastyk has been answered about a year ago by a > current member of the NGMPP, Anne Macdonald, who has corrected my initial > reaction then (FO5A006 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de). It should be in the > Indology archives. > > >> I ask for reactions from members of INDOLOGY who have more intimate > connections with this project than I do myself? What *is* the position? > Is it truly, as it currently appears, a matter of sheer nationality? << > > It is unfortunate that, again, the question of the Nepal-DMG agreement and > the use of NGMPP microfilms are confounded with nationality -- and this > inside the EU! > > For example, the project has employed,throughout its history, besides > Nepalese and Germans, some British, Canadian, French, Indian, Italian > nationals and maybe others. > > More importantly, based on my five years as director of the NGMPP at the > National Archives of Nepal (1972-77) and from what I have heard afterwards > I can categorically state that we have always tried to help all who asked > for assistance, irrespective of nationality. Swiebodzin, which is in Poland>. And we have hosted them at home or in the > Nepal Research Center (run under the aegis of the DMG), again irrespective > of nationality. > > The problem of the films, if it exists, is one of the *original agreement* > of a quarter century ago. And that was difficult enough to negotiate. > > The agreement clearly speaks about the use of the films by the "the German > Oriental Society" (DMG) not "members of the DMG". I may dig out the exact > wording from my basement if the file has not been destroyed in recent > flooding. ("rescuing and preservation" also here, where even the floods > are bigger and better!) > > But from my years at the NGMPP and at the National Archives I know that > the *interpretation* of the agreement *at Kathmandu* depends a little on > the winds prevailing there at the moment in question. (Therefore my > initial more "liberal" reaction about a year ago). Mostly, the good > relationship between the two parties will allow to speed up things. If > some local political mischief intervenes, NOT. --- POLITICS, as > everywhere. > > The only, and ALSO the *safest* and easiest way is to apply to the > National Archives, pay the cost for the film & the "MS tax" (it used to be > some 0.75 cents US$ per folio; I don't know the present rate). > > If you send a copy of your application to the Director of the project > (NGMPP, POB 180, Kathmandu), the NGMPP has ALWAYS been happy > and, I am sure, still will be willing to help you out and facilitate a > quick turn around. (Not 2 or more months as with many European > libraries). > > However, the *offical* procedure has to go through the Archives. (Chief > Research Scholar, National Archives, Ram Shah Path, Kathmandu, Nepal). > > All of that was stated clearly a year ago or so, by Anne Macdonald > (FO5A006 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de) > > Therefore, H.O. Feistel is right when he says: > > that this is explicitly stated in > > the Nepal-Germany agreement. > > But the reason, as stated by R.Torella, is not correct: > > > The reason is that the Nepalese Archives want > > to reserve for themselves only the right to get money for providing > > microfilm copies (to non-German scholars). > > They also want the "copyright". And Germans also have to pay at Kathmandu. > I paid for a number of MSS when I was in station, as director of the > NGMPP at the very Archives, and also after that, when visiting during the > Eighties. > > Simply, the NATIONAL ARCHIVES retain the right to allow use of the > microfilms, the "copyright" if you will. And they take a small tax. > > MW. > =========================================================================== > Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Dec 3 17:55:36 1997 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 09:55:36 -0800 Subject: Adress request Message-ID: <161227034138.23782.15901203648817931258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know the e-mail adress of Vidyanath Rao. I could not find it in the Goph.er directoty. Thanks A.M. From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Dec 3 17:59:51 1997 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 09:59:51 -0800 Subject: Heinrich Zimmer jr. Message-ID: <161227034140.23782.7403663431290665746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in Indological or other research on Heinrich Zimmer's work. Would anybody know of colleagues who worked on him recently? Thanks, A.M. From lasic at OEAW.AC.AT Wed Dec 3 09:20:16 1997 From: lasic at OEAW.AC.AT (Horst Lasic) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 10:20:16 +0100 Subject: bodhi- correction Message-ID: <161227034142.23782.717387347288927069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Gardner, Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with Vedic literature and language. But maybe it could be helpful to link bodhi in those cases to bhU (cf. for instance Whitney's Roots and Monier-Williams sub bhU; ) rather than to budh. Best wishes, Horst Lasic From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Wed Dec 3 15:34:27 1997 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 10:34:27 -0500 Subject: Possible future panel: textual dating. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034156.23782.7069328510886747779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin -- I would be interested to present a discussion of dating of the Mahabharata if such a panel on datings develops. Alf Hiltebeitel On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Edwin Bryant wrote: > Dear all, > > I would like to suggest the following possible topic for a future AAR (or > Madison) panel: "Dating of Sanskrit texts: old assumptions, new > evaluations" (or some such thing). > > Dennis Hudson has been doing very interesting and innovative work > based on his analysis of the iconography of the Vaikuntha > Perumal temple at Kanchipuram (which suggests a more ancient date for > parts of the Bhagavat Purana than has generally been accepted by critical > scholarship) and is willing to present some of his conclusions. I would > like to present a paper on how scholars ascertained the commonly accepted > dates for the early Vedic literature and discuss some of the challenges > to such dating (especially focusing on an analysis of the > astro-chronological claims in this regard). > > Anyone else interested in presenting a paper connected with textual dating > that might resonate with the above two topics? > > Hope you are all well, Edwin Bryant > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 3 09:40:58 1997 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 10:40:58 +0100 Subject: bodhi- correction Message-ID: <161227034145.23782.15644855622907280663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >> asmaa'kam bodhi avitaa' tanuu'naam | >> >> cf. Geldner (HOS 1951, III: 7) "sei der Beschutzer unserer Leiber"-- I'm >> sure I am missing something obvious . . . but I have trouble fitting both >> tanuunaam and bodhi in light of Geldner's reading. Muir doesn't treat it, >> nor does Elizarenkova or Maurer, sadly (as also with 2.9.2 below). > >****correction**** >as avitaa' with bodhi based upon what I get >****end correction**** It seems to me that Geldner interprets bodhi as from the root bhuu. We would then have to reconstruct something like *bhuH-dhi (compare yu;n-dhi for yuj) with an irregular guna in the second person sg., cf. irregular second person plural imperatives like e-tana, braviitana, stota, han-tana instead of itana etc. (See Macdonell p. 142). Since *bhuH-dhi contains to aspirates, the first i deaspirated (cf. *bhudh- > *budh). This should give bodhi. Hope I am not totally off the mark. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Dec 3 16:54:39 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 10:54:39 -0600 Subject: Source Request & bodhi Thanks/summary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034161.23782.5852599021820300994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: Does anyone have access to a copy of the following: "Light, soul and visions in the Veda. Poona 1991. (Prof. P.D. Gune Memorial Lectures.)" Please let me know so we can arrange a fax/mailing option for which I can reimburse as this is a time-urgent request. Further information about htis request is at the close of this message. I have many thanks to all those who have thus far replied on teh bodhi question (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern; George Cardona; Lars Martin Fosse; Alex Michaels, R. H. Koch, and Roesler Ulricke). While the consensus appears to be for the meaning of bhuu viz. bodhi as a form both budh and bhuu share, there is no agreement as to a solid grammatical derivation supporting how this might have come to be. It might be that a resolution favoring one root over another could be indicated in accent (bodhi remains unaccented each occasion--to which I now add RV 4.16.17), but I've not gotten that far without my books here at this office (if anyone knows if accent might differ, I welcome the news). I should also note that Roesler Ulricke has argued for wache in the sense of watch over: > Geldner's translation is a simplified rendering of something like "wache > (bodhi) als Schuetzer/Helfer (avitaa) unserer Leiber" ("watch (bodhi) as > a guardian/supporter (avitaa) over our bodies"). Under the circumstances, the two roots are not at insurmountable variance and the phonetic wordplay between the two could very well be intentional (cf. Elizarenkova). Any further thoughts on the derivation from the roots are, of course welcome. Thank you, and thanks in advance re. the Bodewitz article (translated from the German, from inaugural lecture in Utrecht: "Vedische Voorstellingen omtrent de 'ziel'" ("Vedic conceptions of the soul") reported to appear in Gune Memorial Lectures [fifth series]). If only the German is immediately available, I'll take whichever is quickest! Thanks to Dr. Ulricke for this information. jrg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Wed Dec 3 09:55:06 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 11:55:06 +0200 Subject: Name and address sought Message-ID: <161227034147.23782.10011648984056887487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, An Indian colleague has asked me to forward a request for the correct spelling of the name of the following Danish scholar, and his address: Viggo Braun, working on Assamese An email address would be helpful. Kindly reply to me at: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Thank you. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM Wed Dec 3 20:54:38 1997 From: girish at MUSHIKA.WANET.COM (Girish Sharma) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 12:54:38 -0800 Subject: Graha epithets Message-ID: <161227034173.23782.1979965629180461189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are two epithets, one of Shani and one of Ketu, that I don't understand. Can anyone help with the meaning of these: For Shani, Niilaa~njanagiriprakhya, which to mean something like the One who has the appearance of a of blue ointment. What does giri mean in this context? For Ketu, Taarakaagrahataaraka where it seems to be Taarakaa - wife of Brhaspati, graha - seizing, taaraka - planet. Was Ketu somehow involved in the abduction of the wife of Brhaspati that resulted in the birth of Budha by Candra? Thank you for any help you can provide. ------------------------------------------------------- Girish Sharma San Diego, CA From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Wed Dec 3 13:51:50 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 14:51:50 +0100 Subject: Name and address sought Message-ID: <161227034151.23782.17264921370781436047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear members of the list, > >An Indian colleague has asked me to forward a request for the correct >spelling of the name of the following Danish scholar, and his address: > > Viggo Braun, working on Assamese > >An email address would be helpful. Kindly reply to me at: > > r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no > >Thank you. > >With best wishes, > >Ruth Schmidt > The name is Viggo Brun. Email address: brun at coco.ihi.ku.dk Regards, Georg v.Simson From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Dec 3 21:35:31 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 16:35:31 -0500 Subject: Graha epithets -Reply Message-ID: <161227034176.23782.4452802240423898887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Giri in Niilaa~njanagiriprakhya as elsewhere means "mountain": "resembling a mountain of blue-black ointment," i.e. large and all black. Allen Thrasher From roheko at MSN.COM Wed Dec 3 15:36:09 1997 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 16:36:09 +0100 Subject: bodhi- correction Message-ID: <161227034159.23782.14695967494533504415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> avitR = Beschuetzer = protector tanuu = Leib, Koerper = body class. Skt. also tree (allegorical for the familiy human beings) bodhi = sei = be (bedenke uns als Schuetzer = think of us as protector) all interpretations are to be find with Grassmann -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: JR Gardner An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Datum: Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 1997 04:40 Betreff: Re: bodhi- correction >Sorry, I composed this across two different days and left out that >Beschutzer is Geldner's obvious reading for avitaa'-- hence obfuscating >my original question for the list as to bodhi. I have inserted teh >necessary correction with "****correction**** to the original post below. >Consider me to have rightly flamed myself herewith. > >On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, JR Gardner [**mistakenly**] wrote: > >> I hesitate to enlist help with a passaage so seemingly straightforward as >> the following, but it is not easy to take issue with herr Geldner. What >> does anyone suggest for bodhi in RV 5.4.9 (from Van Nooten and Holland, >> 1994): >> >> asmaa'kam bodhi avitaa' tanuu'naam | >> >> cf. Geldner (HOS 1951, III: 7) "sei der Beschutzer unserer Leiber"-- I'm >> sure I am missing something obvious . . . but I have trouble fitting both >> tanuunaam and bodhi in light of Geldner's reading. Muir doesn't treat it, >> nor does Elizarenkova or Maurer, sadly (as also with 2.9.2 below). >> >> I also don't get Beschutzer (unless via the tree/der Baum, i.e. that the >> Buddha sat beneath, but htis feels like a stretch) > >****correction**** >as avitaa' with bodhi based upon what I get >****end correction**** > >> from Bothlingk (1879, Vol IV, p. 234), Mylius (1975: 330), Suryakanta >> (1981: 492), Mayrhoffer (1963, II: 449), or Grassman (1996: 907) for >> bodhi. >> >> Similarly, cf. 2.9.2c-d (from Van Nooten & Holland 1994): >> >> a'gne toka'sya nas ta'ne tanuu'naam | >> a'prayuchan dii'diyad bodhi gopaa'H >> >> With Geldner (HOS #33, 1951: 284) where we don't have avitaa' and I am >still not getting bodhi clearly: >> >> "O Agni, sei du mit deinem Lichte der unablassige Schutzer zer Fortdauer >> unseres Samens, unserer eingenen Personen!" >> >> While I am willingly anxious to solve this question, even at the expense >> of being wrong, it would seem that the role of Agni as garbha, et al in >> plants and living things (RV 2.1.1; 14; 3.1.13; as generator or engenderer >> 3.2.10; 7.5.7; 3.6.2; 5; 6.8.3; 7.5.4 [cf. also Norman Brown, JAOS 51, >> 1931, 108-118, Sources and Nature of puruSa in the PuruSasuukta]), would >> attest to the more standard renderings of awaken or--even--quicken. >> >> While discussion is welcome, for the sake of the list, and its recent >> meta-debates, at this point, I am asking about translation moreso than >> etymologies of -budh. >> >> tyia >> >> jrg >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ >> John Robert Gardner Obermann Center >> School of Religion for Advanced Studies >> University of Iowa University of Iowa >> 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 >> http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ >> It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other >> than that of which it is the transformation. >> > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 3 17:16:35 1997 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 18:16:35 +0100 Subject: Source Request & bodhi Thanks/summary Message-ID: <161227034164.23782.3752024872637506110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:54 03.12.97 -0600, you wrote: >Greetings: > >Does anyone have access to a copy of the following: > >"Light, soul and visions in the Veda. Poona 1991. (Prof. P.D. Gune >Memorial Lectures.)" John, do you have full bibliographic data on this? (Or was it written by P. D. Gune himself?). I am interested in this too! >While the consensus appears to be for the meaning of bhuu viz. bodhi as a >form both budh and bhuu share, there is no agreement as to a solid >grammatical derivation supporting how this might have come to be. It >might be that a resolution favoring one root over another could be >indicated in accent (bodhi remains unaccented each occasion--to which I >now add RV 4.16.17), but I've not gotten that far without my books here at >this office (if anyone knows if accent might differ, I welcome the news). If it is from the root budh, shouldn't we expect boddhi < budh + dhi. It still seems to me that bhuu is a better bet. But I am sitting at home, and I don't have access to the better books in the Indological library. I therefore have to rely on my faltering memory. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 3 18:01:28 1997 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 19:01:28 +0100 Subject: bodhi once again Message-ID: <161227034170.23782.8695049208912125781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John, I found another reference in this matter. If you look up Macdonell's Vedic Grammar for Students (which I suppose you have) on page 172, you will see a footnote referring to bo-dhi: "Formed from both bhuu be (for bhuu-dhi) and budh awake (for bod-dhi instead of bud-dhi). Compare yo-dhi for yud-dhi through yod-dhi. I am sorry that I started dashing off my speculations. Witzel was right - we shouldn't press the reply-button without thinking twice! Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Wed Dec 3 18:27:13 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 19:27:13 +0100 Subject: Source Request & bodhi Thanks/summary Message-ID: <161227034167.23782.7929765365728275746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >>While the consensus appears to be for the meaning of bhuu viz. bodhi as a >>form both budh and bhuu share, there is no agreement as to a solid >>grammatical derivation supporting how this might have come to be. It >>might be that a resolution favoring one root over another could be >>indicated in accent (bodhi remains unaccented each occasion--to which I >>now add RV 4.16.17), but I've not gotten that far without my books here at >>this office (if anyone knows if accent might differ, I welcome the news). > >If it is from the root budh, shouldn't we expect boddhi < budh + dhi. It >still seems to me that bhuu is a better bet. But I am sitting at home, and I >don't have access to the better books in the Indological library. I >therefore have to rely on my faltering memory. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin bodhi as imperative (aor.) is an irregular formation both from budh- and from bhU-, only explainable by one or the other analogy; cf. T. Goto, Die im Vedischen, Wien 1987, p. 218 (with further lit.). Regards, G.v.Simson From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 4 01:47:38 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 01:47:38 +0000 Subject: bodhi once again In-Reply-To: <199712031801.TAA21884@online.no> Message-ID: <161227034179.23782.4954122368879035913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:01 PM 12/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >John, I found another reference in this matter. If you look up Macdonell's >Vedic Grammar for Students (which I suppose you have) on page 172, you will >see a footnote referring to bo-dhi: "Formed from both bhuu be (for bhuu-dhi) >and budh awake (for bod-dhi instead of bud-dhi). Compare yo-dhi for yud-dhi >through yod-dhi. > >I am sorry that I started dashing off my speculations. Witzel was right - we >shouldn't press the reply-button without thinking twice! > >Lars Martin > > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo > >Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no >Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > > Whitney in his "Roots, Verb-forms and Primary Derivatives" also lists `bodhi' under bhU and budh. See pages 106 and 113. I guess what I have is first edition. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 4 01:47:45 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 01:47:45 +0000 Subject: Graha epithets In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971203125438.006b5898@mailhub1.wanet.net> Message-ID: <161227034182.23782.17320547381143939577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:54 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Girish Sharma wrote: >There are two epithets, one of Shani and one of >Ketu, that I don't understand. Can anyone help >with the meaning of these: > >For Shani, Niilaa~njanagiriprakhya, which to >mean something like the One who has the appearance >of a of blue ointment. What does giri >mean in this context? > It may mean that he has very big black body that resembles a mountain of blue ointment. >For Ketu, Taarakaagrahataaraka where it seems to >be Taarakaa - wife of Brhaspati, graha - seizing, >taaraka - planet. Was Ketu somehow involved in the >abduction of the wife of Brhaspati that resulted in >the birth of Budha by Candra? > BRhaspati's wife is tArA not tArakA. The word can mean 'a planet which seizes other planets.' regards, sarma. >Thank you for any help you can provide. > > >------------------------------------------------------- > >Girish Sharma >San Diego, CA > > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:00:37 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 10:00:37 -0500 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034196.23782.8135293125519097443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I also have another observation. While I think people have a right to differ with views, analysis of an ethnic background or disciplinary training has little to do with a general policy issue. I hope we can keep such discussion above any personal or nationality level. My observation is that a person's ethnic background has no relevance and should not enter discussion. ( pun: It sounds like Mahabharata somewhat when Karna is asked to describe lineage before he is permitted to participate. I believe it's a mistake.) Coming back to my view, let me state it clearly again. I strongly hold that the intellectual property of a nation/people must not leave them on any circumstance. The efforts to preserve them locally and disseminate them globally is relevant. But to capture them and move them out of the country is unscholarly and must not happen. It's a competition between personal ethics and an urge to move ahead. In such competition scholarly ethics must win over any other rationalization! I agree that things have happened in the past and many manuscripts and artefacts have left shores. I call upon all scholars to prevent such happenings and help preserve materials among the people who contributed in generating them. This is true globally. This is a social call and a call of respect to the intellectual property and its owners. If we all pitch in, we can assist with various efforts that are under way in respective countries. This we must do. To feel pity about the deteriorating condition and to make effort to "rescue" the material is a negative concept. Think of "preserve" instead. I thank all to listen to my argument. A focussed discussion and proposed efforts are worthwhile. Bijoy Misra On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Bijoy Misra wrote: > > > Anyone thinking of so called "rescue" of documents > > from India or the subcontinent is utterly on > > the wrong track. .... > > > ...respect to a country's heritage and her people. > > > I agree people have to get more serious to be protected against > > being "rescued". I will do my bit. > > "People" should be "protected against being rescued"? (Is this is new > sub-thread?) > > > But on the point in question, the assumed guardianship of material > > on "rescue" missions should be abandoned. One very easily sees > > the shallowness of such missions. > > No, sorry, I don't see it. "Shallowness"? "Guardianship"? > > "RESCUE - save or bring away from danger or harm" (Oxford Learner's > Pocket Dictionary, 1992). I do not think of this as a shallow matter. > > > I agree that the conditions > > in the subcontinent are not the greatest, but it's reasonable > > to speculate that the material would survive longer than anything > > else on the planet. Don't people agree? > > That speculation is quite unwarranted. In other postings on this topic, > evidence of the contrary has been mentioned. You also seem inconsistent > in arguing "shallowness" while at the same time you propose to do > something in this direction yourself. > > Forgive me if I have difficulties in following your train of thought. > There is also the mention of "ethics" in an earlier posting of yours, > and perhaps a clarification is in place here. Does your last quote above > indicate that you find it more "ethical" and more respectful towards > India's heritage that the international scholarly community does nothing > to help stop the loss of historical materials? (Mind you, we are speaking > about materials unlike your stars and planets and other things far away, > of which there are innumerable specimens anyway.) If you think that all > this is maya and will ultimately merge in some nirguna brahman anyway, > just go ahead and believe that; but I do believe that you should allow > others, both in and outside the subcontinent, who (unlike you) are > committed to these studies, the liberty to believe and act otherwise. > > Most fortunately, the IGNCA, the DFG, the Nepali government and, I > dare say, the overwhelming majority of academics committed to the > study of Indian culture do not agree with you -- for the simple reason > that if the materials are no longer in existence, a good deal of the > cultural heritage, and all research, stop there. Anyhow: evidently, and > fortunately, what you think about this issue does not really matter, > because the work is continuing anyway. > > RZ > From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA Thu Dec 4 15:18:47 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMONTREAL.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 10:18:47 -0500 Subject: TOC [December issue] Message-ID: <161227034198.23782.8999094776088912556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CONTENTS VOLUME 1, NUMBER 3, December 1997 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (will be available in 3-4 weeks) A Review Symposium of Robert I. Levy's Mesocosm: Hinduism and the Organization of a Traditional Newar City in Nepal Goddesses dancing in the city: Hinduism in an urban incarnation A review article ~ 441-85 Steven M. Parish, University of California, San Diego Sacred Space and the city: Greece and Bhaktapur ~ 487-501 Michael H. Jameson, Stanford University Macrocosm, mesocosm, and microcosm: The persistent nature of 'Hindu' beliefs and symbolical forms ~ 503-44 Michael Witzel, Harvard University Does symbolism 'construct an urban mesocosm'? Robert Levy's _Mesocosm_ and the question of value consensus in Bhaktapur ~ 545-69 David N. Gellner, Brunel University Kingship and 'contrapriests' ~ 571-87 Declan Quigley, Queen's University of Belfast Afterthoughts ~ 589-603 Robert I. Levy, Duke University BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES ~ 605-60 Number 2 (August) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ARTICLES: When Rahu devours the moon: The myth of the birth of Krsna Caitanya ~ 221-64 Tony K. Stewart, North Carolina State University The yogi and the Goddess ~ 265-87 Nicholas F. Gier, University of Idaho Jaina ideology and early Mughal trade with Europeans ~ 288-313 Ellison Banks Findly, Trinity College Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part II of III: The imperative of the wish ~ 314-36 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado What's a God? The quest for the right understanding of devata in Brahmanical ritual theory (mimamsa) ~ 337-85 Francis X. Clooney, Boston College Radhakrishnan as advocate of the class/caste system as a universal religio-social system ~ 386-400 Robert N. Minor, University of Kansas Scandals, cover-ups, and other imagined occurences in the life of Ramakrsna: An examination of Jeffrey Kripal's _Kali's child_ ~ 401-20 Svami Atmajnanananda [birthname, Stuart Elkman], Ramakrsna Order BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES, ~ 421-40 Number 1 (April) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ARTICLES: The center and circumference of silence: Yoga, poststructuralism, and the rhetoric of paradox ~ 3-18 George Kalamaras, Indiana Univeristy-Purdue University Imagining Ayodhya: Utopia and its shadows in a Hindu landscape ~ 19-54 Philip Lutgendorf, University of Iowa The power of space in a traditional Hindu city ~ 55-71 Robert I. Levy, Duke University Mountains of wisdom: On the interface between Siddha and Vidyadhara cults and the Siddha orders in Medieval India ~ 73-95 David Gordon White, University of California, Santa Barbara Temple rites and temple servants: Religion's role in the survival of Kerala's Kutiyattam drama tradition ~ 97-115 Bruce M. Sullivan, Northern Arizona University Bengali religious nationalism and communalism ~ 117-39 Peter Heehs, Aurobindo Ashram Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part I of III: The promise of a culture ~ 141-64 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado Advaita Vedanta and typologies of multiplicity and unity: An interpretation of nondual knowledge ~ 165-88 Joseph Milne, University of Kent BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES ~ 189-220 JOURNAL HOMEPAGE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Full details on the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal homepage at: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ The site includes a statement of aims and scope, list of editors, information for prospective contributors, reviewers, subscribers, and advertisers. Also includes contents, abstracts, and information about authors for each issue as published, and plans for upcoming issues. APPEAL ^^^^^^ Currently the International Institute of India Studies and World Heritage Press are engaged in a subscription drive on behalf of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. If you like what we are doing help us obtain new subscribers. Please encourage your colleagues and students and PLEASE GET YOUR LIBRARY to subscribe to _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. Every subscription counts!!! Many many thanks in advance. Subscription rates: North America Rest of World Institutions $150 $156 Individuals $ 60 $ 66 Students $ 30 $ 36 *Canadians, please add 7% GST as follows: $10.20 institutions, $4.10 individuals, $2.10 students *Orders from outside Canada must be paid in U.S. dollars. *Prices include postage. *Please make your check payable to the World Heritage Press. Please send your order and inquiries to: World Heritage Press, Journals Divison, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Fax 514,771-2776 Tel 514,771-0213 ========================================================================== From LD5 at SOAS.AC.UK Thu Dec 4 12:14:21 1997 From: LD5 at SOAS.AC.UK (LD5) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 12:14:21 +0000 Subject: Silk in Benares Message-ID: <161227034188.23782.4503074319735350359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know at what time silk began to be made in Benares (if ever - could that famous stuff be imported?) and what the textual evidence is? Any information on silk in Benares (though I must make it very clear I do not want to come and see your shop, not even for just looking) is welcome. Many thanks Lalita du Perron ld5 at soas.ac.uk From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Dec 4 11:17:51 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 12:17:51 +0100 Subject: Graha epithets In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971203125438.006b5898@mailhub1.wanet.net> Message-ID: <161227034190.23782.18096954313319596318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:54 +0100 3/12/97, Girish Sharma wrote: >For Shani, Niilaa~njanagiriprakhya, which to >mean something like the One who has the appearance >of a of blue ointment. What does giri >mean in this context? I remember, a long time ago, not knowing the Sanskrit and reading the rAmAyana in the Roussel's translation, I was astonished by the metaphora 'semblable a une montagne de collyre bleu' used frequently to describe the rAkshasas. Hence, I was very excited by your question and threw an eye on the R. (thanks Tokunaga sensei). It appears that: 1) in nIlAnjanagiri, nIla can altern with kRSNa (R,VI,73,15) and, frequently, giri with caya. 2) the compound is allways used as the second part in a metaphoric context, followed by iva or composed with -upama, -AkAra, -nibha, &c. Hence, the context is unable to give the meaning. nIla and kRSNa beeing almost synonymous, giri beeing an hyperbole of caya, the problem seems to be anjana. The MMW dict. give many meanings for this word and nothing enforce us to choose 'ointment, &c.' in this context; nothing enforce us to believe the unicity of the root anj- (how explaining anjali ? how anjalika (the arrow who slew karNa) ?). Internal analysis fails here, except perhaps if you can explain a passage where anjanagiri (beeing Vishnu, not the Rakshasas!) seems to be linked with the storm: The first zlokas of R.VII,7 show a fight between Vishnu and the elite of the Rakshasas: nArAyaNagirim te tu garjanto rAkSasAmbudAh / avarSann iSuvarSeNa varSeNa adrim ivAmbudAh.//1 zyAmAvadAtas tair viSNur nIlair naktamcarottamaih / vRto'njanagirIvAsId varSamANaih payodharaih //2 zyAmAvadAta can be the key ? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Hrid at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 18:43:46 1997 From: Hrid at AOL.COM (Howard Resnick) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 13:43:46 -0500 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts Message-ID: <161227034203.23782.4601439008251546211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/4/97 9:03:52 AM, you wrote: >My observation >is that a person's ethnic background has no >relevance and should not enter discussion. >( pun: It sounds like Mahabharata somewhat when >Karna is asked to describe lineage before he is >permitted to participate. I believe it's >a mistake.) > >Coming back to my view, let me state it clearly >again. I strongly hold that the intellectual >property of a nation/people must not leave them >on any circumstance. I find these two points, at least apparently, contradictory. If people are not to be disqualified based on body/lineage/ethnicity/race etc, then surely non-Indians are not automatically disqualified from acting as caretakeers of manuscripts. Similarly, it would seem to follow that Indians, by dint of their bodies, are not automatically qualified to do so. If the truth is what works, whatever works to preserve that which is valuable is the true means to do so. Howard J. Resnick Visiting Scholar, Indo-European Studies U.C.L.A. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 4 19:24:43 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 14:24:43 -0500 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts In-Reply-To: <971204134345_-2140497623@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034206.23782.2087731469682945868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Howard Resnick wrote: > If the truth is what works, whatever works to preserve that which is > valuable is the true means to do so. This is where you are back in self-rationalization. In some sense we do this mImAmSA all the time. The question that you might ask is "what is the truth", or in this sense what is the right conduct. Is it the right conduct to move the stuff away or try to preserve it locally? Moving the stuff away has been called "rescue" in these discussions and I object to such conduct. I agree that the color of skin or nationality has no bearing on whose property it is. Geographic location in the form of origin has. - Bijoy From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 4 10:26:20 1997 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 15:56:20 +0530 Subject: rescuing things (maybe the last time) Message-ID: <161227034185.23782.13328528112416652141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Bijoy Misra wrote: > Anyone thinking of so called "rescue" of documents > from India or the subcontinent is utterly on > the wrong track. .... > ...respect to a country's heritage and her people. > I agree people have to get more serious to be protected against > being "rescued". I will do my bit. "People" should be "protected against being rescued"? (Is this is new sub-thread?) > But on the point in question, the assumed guardianship of material > on "rescue" missions should be abandoned. One very easily sees > the shallowness of such missions. No, sorry, I don't see it. "Shallowness"? "Guardianship"? "RESCUE - save or bring away from danger or harm" (Oxford Learner's Pocket Dictionary, 1992). I do not think of this as a shallow matter. > I agree that the conditions > in the subcontinent are not the greatest, but it's reasonable > to speculate that the material would survive longer than anything > else on the planet. Don't people agree? That speculation is quite unwarranted. In other postings on this topic, evidence of the contrary has been mentioned. You also seem inconsistent in arguing "shallowness" while at the same time you propose to do something in this direction yourself. Forgive me if I have difficulties in following your train of thought. There is also the mention of "ethics" in an earlier posting of yours, and perhaps a clarification is in place here. Does your last quote above indicate that you find it more "ethical" and more respectful towards India's heritage that the international scholarly community does nothing to help stop the loss of historical materials? (Mind you, we are speaking about materials unlike your stars and planets and other things far away, of which there are innumerable specimens anyway.) If you think that all this is maya and will ultimately merge in some nirguna brahman anyway, just go ahead and believe that; but I do believe that you should allow others, both in and outside the subcontinent, who (unlike you) are committed to these studies, the liberty to believe and act otherwise. Most fortunately, the IGNCA, the DFG, the Nepali government and, I dare say, the overwhelming majority of academics committed to the study of Indian culture do not agree with you -- for the simple reason that if the materials are no longer in existence, a good deal of the cultural heritage, and all research, stop there. Anyhow: evidently, and fortunately, what you think about this issue does not really matter, because the work is continuing anyway. RZ From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Thu Dec 4 15:41:27 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 16:41:27 +0100 Subject: anjana (was: Graha epithets) Message-ID: <161227034193.23782.15067504040735956270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique Tillaud wrote: > I remember, a long time ago, not knowing the Sanskrit and reading >the rAmAyana in the Roussel's translation, I was astonished by the >metaphora 'semblable a une montagne de collyre bleu' used frequently to >describe the rAkshasas. > Hence, I was very excited by your question and threw an eye on the >R. (thanks Tokunaga sensei). > It appears that: >1) in nIlAnjanagiri, nIla can altern with kRSNa (R,VI,73,15) and, >frequently, giri with caya. >2) the compound is allways used as the second part in a metaphoric context, >followed by iva or composed with -upama, -AkAra, -nibha, &c. Hence, the >context is unable to give the meaning. > > nIla and kRSNa beeing almost synonymous, giri beeing an hyperbole >of caya, the problem seems to be anjana. > The MMW dict. give many meanings for this word and nothing enforce >us to choose 'ointment, &c.' in this context; nothing enforce us to believe >the unicity of the root anj- (how explaining anjali ? how anjalika (the >arrow who slew karNa) ?). > Internal analysis fails here, except perhaps if you can explain a >passage where anjanagiri (beeing Vishnu, not the Rakshasas!) seems to be >linked with the storm: > >The first zlokas of R.VII,7 show a fight between Vishnu and the elite of >the Rakshasas: > >nArAyaNagirim te tu garjanto rAkSasAmbudAh / >avarSann iSuvarSeNa varSeNa adrim ivAmbudAh.//1 >zyAmAvadAtas tair viSNur nIlair naktamcarottamaih / >vRto'njanagirIvAsId varSamANaih payodharaih //2 > > zyAmAvadAta can be the key ? > Beside nIlAnjana-giri or -caya (this is used several times in the Mahabharata, too), prabhinnaAnjana is often used in sanskrit-literature in similar contexts, when something dark or greyish or a mixture of white and black (zyAmAvad?ta!) is described. About this latter term, meaning 'mixed collyrium', Claus Vogel has written an article in Indo-Iranian Journal 10 (1967/68): 171-176. Regards Georg v. Simson From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:45:39 1997 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 16:45:39 +0000 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts Message-ID: <161227034208.23782.14664314424493790920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the thread on manuscripts: It seems to me that from any point of view the NGMPP project has been a rip-roaring success: over 100,000 manuscripts microfilmed, without any being removed from Nepal. Could not this be a model for other, similar projects? The sad fact is that all over South and Southeast Asia (not to mention all the Tibetan and Sanskrit MSS. the Chinese pillaged from Tibet) manuscripts are disentegrating. Surely what we need is more monied organizations like the German Oriental Society to put up funds and form cooperative ventures with the governments and/or institutions who own the MSS. to microfilm as many as possible. I won't deny that it is preferable to work with originals, but I have had considerable success working with photocopies made from microfilms. In some ways, this is the preferred method, for one can enlarge the copies for easier reading and to aid identification of problematic ak.saras. What is needed, it seems to me, is for the AAR or the AAS or the AOS or any number of other learned societies to commit some funds are start making open-handed overtures. I'm sure those involved in the NGMPP would be more than happy to share their expertise. I for one would certainly not object to paying an extra, say, $25.00 p.a. on top of my membership fees as a contribution to such a project. Regards to all, Joel Tatelman. Dr. Joel Tatelman, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. Fax: (608) 265-3538 From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 4 23:34:42 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 18:34:42 -0500 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts In-Reply-To: <199712042241.QAA84286@mail5.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227034210.23782.16956117558927759043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Joel H. Tatelman wrote: > Regarding the thread on manuscripts: > > It seems to me that from any point of view the NGMPP project has been a > rip-roaring success: over 100,000 manuscripts microfilmed, without any > being removed from Nepal. Hear! Hear!! Refreshing.. > > Could not this be a model for other, similar projects? > Of course, it can.. We need to support. > The sad fact is that all over South and Southeast Asia (not to mention > all the Tibetan and Sanskrit MSS. the Chinese pillaged from Tibet) > manuscripts are disentegrating. > > Surely what we need is more monied organizations like the German Oriental > Society to put up funds and form cooperative ventures with the > governments and/or institutions who own the MSS. to microfilm as many as > possible. > We have to also look out for new mss which haven't been discovered yet. The scholars in/from India can help in this. > I won't deny that it is preferable to work with originals, but I have had > considerable success working with photocopies made from microfilms. In > some ways, this is the preferred method, for one can enlarge the copies > for easier reading and to aid identification of problematic ak.saras. > > What is needed, it seems to me, is for the AAR or the AAS or the AOS or > any number of other learned societies to commit some funds are start > making open-handed overtures. I'm sure those involved in the NGMPP would > be more than happy to share their expertise. I for one would certainly > not object to paying an extra, say, $25.00 p.a. on top of my membership > fees as a contribution to such a project. > Are we not starting 1998 in a great new way.. Let's put all our heads together.. Best regards, - bijoy misra. From Hrid at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 00:38:40 1997 From: Hrid at AOL.COM (Hrid) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 19:38:40 -0500 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts Message-ID: <161227034212.23782.10802935466208486058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/4/97 12:50:52 PM, you wrote: >> If the truth is what works, whatever works to preserve that which is >> valuable is the true means to do so. > >This is where you are back in self-rationalization. Technically not, since I have no personal intention of taking manuscripts out of India. If the manuscripts can be properly preserved in India, along the lines of the Nepal project, all the better. Sincerely, Howard J. Resnick From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 4 15:30:49 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 21:00:49 +0530 Subject: indology mss. and intellectual property rights Message-ID: <161227034201.23782.17672616865775168806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The issues are larger than mere copyright issues. WTO members are still debating the issues related to the preservation and protection of traditional knowledge systems. There was a case in the USA when Donald Trump was given the right to use TAJMAHAL as his TradeMark. There were also cases involving the patenting of neem and turmeric products. I suppose world heritage documents should be cherished... with due regard to national sentiments. Laws and international agreements will evolve within this framework. Regards, Kalyanaraman From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 5 03:01:58 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 22:01:58 -0500 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034214.23782.6769338245312042268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Howard, Great! we need your blessing.. Bijoy On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Hrid wrote: > In a message dated 12/4/97 12:50:52 PM, you wrote: > > >> If the truth is what works, whatever works to preserve that which > is > >> valuable is the true means to do so. > > > >This is where you are back in self-rationalization. > Technically not, since I have no personal intention of taking manuscripts out > of India. > If the manuscripts can be properly preserved in India, along the lines of > the Nepal project, all the better. > Sincerely, > > Howard J. Resnick > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 5 03:46:07 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 22:46:07 -0500 Subject: please join if you are in the area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034216.23782.8858688735628179226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a small local effort we do. Pl join us if you are in the area. We meet every month second Saturday. thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- HARVARD UNIVERSITY DEPARTMENT OF SANSKRIT AND INDIAN STUDIES OUTREACH COMMITTEE PUBLIC LECTURE DECEMBER 13, 1997, 3:00 PM HARVARD UNIVERSITY SCIENCE CENTER, HALL C "RECITATION OF VEDAS AND SCRIPTURES" BY PANDIT BALAJI BHATTACHARYA PRIEST, SRI LAKSHMI TEMPLE, ASHLAND, MASS. Abstract: From ancient times, pronunciation and metrical recitation of Sanskrit have been a scholarly and artistic exercise. Proper pronunciation and recitation have been believed to have special healing effect in ceremonies and worships. Pandit Bhattacharya will present examples of vedic recitations and move on to the recitation of puranas and shlokas. Finally, the dramatic effects of Sanskrit prose will be presented with the recitation of "Raghuveera Gadyam", the story of Ramayana. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Public lectures sponsored by the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Outreach Committee are held on the second Saturday of the month at 3:00 PM at Harvard University Science Center. The dates for 1997-98 are: Nov 8, Dec 13, Jan 10, Feb 14, Mar 14, Apr 11 and May 9. The lectures are of general interest and educational in nature. Each lecture is followed by a 30 minute Question and Answer period. Lectures are free and open to all. Everyone is cordially invited. Harvard University Science Center is easily reached through MBTA(T) Red line at Harvard Square station. Please call 617/495-3295 or 617/864-5121 for any further information. From Vaidix at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 10:13:03 1997 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 05:13:03 -0500 Subject: discussion track on manuscripts Message-ID: <161227034218.23782.13611210143574437166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello everyone, Why not establish a procedure to "loan" a document to a different country or organization temporarily? Let one copy of this document be submitted to a voluntary organization and/or a state department and/or a university within the country in which that mss or artifact originates. This at least gives the originating country a legal chance to get back its documents and copyrights when it is ready to take care of them. Let someone who knows the legalese draft a form and circulate it widely. The originating country must also make a law that such forms must be filled before the mss or artifact is transported out of the country otherwise it can be considered as piracy or theft. This simple procedure can make it easy for the flow of material without guilt at the same protecting the rights of originating country. Efforts must be made to make such legislation at all possible levels national/state/province/district so that even if a state has no law, the district law can prevent the movement without a documentary support. B. Mallampalli From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 5 16:37:38 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 11:37:38 -0500 Subject: Graha epithets Message-ID: <161227034222.23782.11771712950179188098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BRhaspati's wife is tArA not tArakA. The word can mean 'a planet which seizes other planets.' regards, sarma. Adding -kaa to Tara- would be a pretty standard meaning of making a diminutive with exactly the same meaning and reference as the original. Cf. Kali and Kalikaa. Allen Thrasher From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Dec 5 20:53:54 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 14:53:54 -0600 Subject: Q. IGNCA Message-ID: <161227034224.23782.2109156784047294243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q. IGNCA ********* It is heartening to hear the good news of microfilming manuscripts. I am eager to know the titles of Tamil manuscripts that have been filmed so far. Especially the Tamil manuscripts from European libraries. Even the great U. V. Swaminathaiyar did not have a chance to see them. European missionaries were working in South India from 1600s onwards. Many manuscripts would have reached the great libraries of Europe. But not enough competent scholars would have looked at them. The microfilms and photocopies have to reach the scholar-pulavar-vidhvans of Tamil to be read. Many times European libraries have listed them as Malabar. It could be tamil or malayalam. Once we have a list, then I can pass them on. I know K. Arunachala KavuNTar, Kamparaaman, Chitrakavi ila. Pazanisaami, S. Raju well and they can read the manuscripts. These are among the best in a fast vanishing tiny tribe. Once the IGNCA catalog is known, I can pay to get copies made for atleast few of important works. I can enlist American Tamil friends to do the job as well (as far as financial support). In Mysore, Epigraphical Survey of India office, many many Tamil inscriptions are waiting to be published. These thousands of inscriptions must be microfilmed. Incidentally, Institute of Asian studies, Madras is publishing several volumes on Tamil palm leaf catalogs. Many Tamil books published decades ago are easily available at Univ. of Koeln. When I give photocopies of rare published works to Tamil vidhvans, literally tears run down (aananda bhashpam). Many Roja Muttaiya libray and Saiva siddhanta kazakam collections' microfilms will be available from Chicago. I agree with Dominik. The charges on books from British library are way high. I think it is easier to get copies from a Western library than from Indian libraries. So, the dissemination of microfilms will save the Indian language books and manuscripts and is a very good thing to do. I can help to track new, unknown mss. holdings, get competent pulavars to read any mss., or finance these projects as far as Tamil is concerned. N. Ganesan From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 5 15:23:17 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 15:23:17 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227034220.23782.10373439336953455719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Testing. Pl. ignore. From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 5 21:45:24 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 15:45:24 -0600 Subject: Archaeologists discover remains of temple in Sehore Message-ID: <161227034225.23782.2210712602349829885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Archaeologists discover remains of temple in Sehore Source: MP Chronicle Archaeologists discover remains of temple in Sehore Archaeologists have found a 2500 year old seal, vestiges of 2100 year old temple and a brickwall of Gupta era besides many artifacts dating back to 6th century BC at Ninnaur village in Sehore district of Madhya Pradesh. The recently concluded excavation carried out at a huge mound on the bank of Narmada, has revealed the existence of five different dynasties - Maurya, Sunga, Gupta, Parmar and Mughal - from different layers, the co-director excavations, Dr. DK Mathur told PTI. The excavations include a coin dated 6th century BC, a 2500 year old seal, Brahmi and other inscriptions, earthenware, toys of terra-cotta, jewellery, weapons, instruments, precious stones and the foundation of a 2100 year old temple of Sunga era, he added. ``The brick-wall, with rare uniformity and stone made floor of Gupta period, unearthed in layer four and five from trench-2, may give vital clues to the housing plans of that time,'' Dr. Mathur said, further adding that ``some experts even opine that full- fledged ancient houses may be lying buried here.'' "We propose to carry out a horizontal excavation at the site next year to explore such a possibility," he said. The 6th century BC punch mark coin with an elephant and inscription in Brahmi on one side and Swastik and Ujjaini signs and tree on the reverse, coins of Mughal era and a supposedly royal terra-cotta seal of Maurya period showing the `moon on a mountain', were also found at Ninnaur, Dr. Mathur added. The ancient temple of Sunga era, of which only elliptical foundation was found, also had a soak-pit (ringwell) to drain out water, he said, adding a sacrificial ladle used for yajnas had also been discovered from the site. Temples of similar shapes and period have already been found in past excavations in Dangwada (Ujjain) and Vishnagar (Vidisha) in the state. Various types of ware unearthed include terra-cotta earthenware, small pots used as lamps, black polished ware and other utensils alongwith a hearth, hubble-bubble, grinding slab and a dabber presumably used by potters, Dr. Mathur said. Round and square beads made of terra-cotta, bones and precious shining jasper stones are other important components of Ninnaur findings. The site has also revealed various kind of jewellery including women's earlobes, made of terra-cotta and several types of shining polished stones, bracelets and `bichhua' besides a string of terra-cotta toys shaped like horse, bull, sheep etc. and terra-cotta and stone balls. The weapons and tools discovered at Ninnaur include arrow-heads, halberd and bradawl. The Ninnaur findings would add an insight into the knowledge of the religious background of various ancient civilisations besides the history of the Narmada basin, say the experts adding that the proposed horizontal excavations at the site may reveal new aspects of town planning during Gupta period. The Ninnaur site is just 12 km from the Pan-Guradiya village which revealed the famous Ashokan inscription in Brahmi in which Ashoka's name was mentioned for the first time, Dr. Mathur said. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sat Dec 6 04:04:09 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 22:04:09 -0600 Subject: Anagrams and Phonetic Wordplay In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19971206064011.2bff3da2@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034230.23782.9099274125607782108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seem to vaguely remember a study on wordplay and anagrams--possibily even phonetic ones--in Vedic lit. Does anyone know of such an entity? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sat Dec 6 04:27:15 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 22:27:15 -0600 Subject: The Dharma of bodhi karma Message-ID: <161227034233.23782.8244748479637532577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> List members, Please accept the lateness of this post and my apologies for breaching netiquette with a misquoting of a helpful scholar (Dr. Roesler) among several who kindly responded to my bodhi dilemma. It was an unintentional error prompted by the laziness of late hours and my recurring carpal tunnel syndrom. Belated thanks to other scholars are appended below as well. This should have gone out much earlier: As a final note on RV 5.4.9, Ulrike Roesler has noted that Geldner et al are viable readings for bodhi viz. -bhuu. I had mistakenly represented her kind response to my question as suggesting that the "wache" reading was the only one. In point of fact she notes that either -bhuu or -budh readings will work in the passage. Additional thanks to George Thompson, Lars Martin Fosse for his follow-up, Ulrike Roesler, Georg von Simson, and Horst Lasic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 6 01:14:18 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 01:14:18 +0000 Subject: Graha epithets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034228.23782.5810301062408244146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:37 AM 12/5/97 -0500, Allen Thrasher writes: >BRhaspati's wife is tArA not tArakA. The word can mean 'a planet which >seizes other planets.' > >regards, > >sarma. > > >Adding -kaa to Tara- would be a pretty standard meaning of making a >diminutive with exactly the same meaning and reference as the original. Cf. >Kali and Kalikaa. > >Allen Thrasher > > Usually this is done for common nouns. It is used for proper nouns as an expression of endearment. Some thing like `my little one' in english. The example of kAlikA you have given perhaps comes under this category- an expression intimacy that the devotee feels towards his Godess. bRhaspati may be entitled to call tArA as tArakA, perhaps candra and other near and dear ones like her father and mother. Not you and me. Anyway I have not come across tArakA being used for tArA the wife of bRhaspati. regards, sarma. From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Dec 6 10:26:43 1997 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 05:26:43 -0500 Subject: Graha epithets Message-ID: <161227034238.23782.6290277274721187625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with D V N Sarma (Dec 3, 1997) that the most likely meaning of Taarakaagrahataaraka for Ketu is something like 'a planet which seizes other planets.' We are in an astronomical/astrological context. So we expect taaraka-aagraha-taaraka, rather than Taarakaa-graha-taaraka. Tony Stone From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Sat Dec 6 07:01:21 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 10:01:21 +0300 Subject: Graha's epithets Message-ID: <161227034235.23782.4768270121043962380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dec. 6 Mr Sarma (Devarakonda Venkata) wrote: Message-ID: <161227034240.23782.298541500011112740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:01 AM 12/6/97 +0300, Yarssov Vassilkov writes: > One more case when it would be safer before pushing the button and >asserting one's own opinion as a general rule to check with texts, indexes >and even most popular dictionaries. TArakA is a very well known variant of >the name TArA as the wife of BRhaspati: see, e.g., the widespread formula >tArakAmayayuddham 'the war which arose in conscequence of Soma having carried >off TArA, the wife of BRhaspati'. As for dictionaries, see Goesta Liebert >and even Dowson. > All the best, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > > First of all I did not assert anything. I have only said >Anyway I have not come across tArakA being used for tArA the wife of >bRhaspati. If one has come across, one is welcome to share it with the members of the list. That is what this list is for - to exchange information. If every body knew everything there will be nothing to communicate and there will be no necessity of the list. I do not claim that I am omniscient and I hope that others also do not claim to be one. If every body waited till they consulted everything to press the button one may not get a chance to press it at all. I have consulted the dictionaries available to me. They do not list under the word tArakA the meaning the wife of bRhaspati. Whereas in case of tArA they do. This clearly shows that tArA is the most wellknown name for the wife of bRhaspati. Even the exerpt given by you >'the war which arose in conscequence of Soma having carried >off TArA, the wife of BRhaspati' ^^^^ gives the name tArA for the wife of bRhaspati. A little more information about the references Mr.Vassilkov has given will be welcome. regards, sarma. From hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM Sat Dec 6 21:35:44 1997 From: hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM (Harold F. Arnold) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 13:35:44 -0800 Subject: Heinrich Zimmer jr. Message-ID: <161227034249.23782.13873096903681298306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am interested in Indological or other research on Heinrich Zimmer's >work. Would anybody know of colleagues who worked on him recently? >Thanks, A.M. See the book: Heinrich Zimmer, Coming into his own, edited by Margaret H. Case. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Dec 6 14:37:02 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 15:37:02 +0100 Subject: Graha's epithets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034242.23782.1423987395755975907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 8:01 +0100 6/12/97, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > One more case when it would be safer before pushing the button and >asserting one's own opinion as a general rule to check with texts, indexes >and even most popular dictionaries. TArakA is a very well known variant of >the name TArA as the wife of BRhaspati: see, e.g., the widespread formula >tArakAmayayuddham 'the war which arose in conscequence of Soma having carried >off TArA, the wife of BRhaspati'. As for dictionaries, see Goesta Liebert >and even Dowson. I agree for the button's technic, but 1) are other attestations of -kA used with Goddess's names ? I don't found any *durgakA, *laksSmikA, *srikA, &c. And reNukA is so named because she is the DAUGHTER of reNu, ambikA and ambalikA are SISTERS of ambA. 2) using the MMW and restraining to the meanigs 'wife of bRhaspati', tArA and tArakAmaya seem a bit older (MBh) than tArakA (VP), if we must follow the Indian tradition giving parAzara as the son of vyAsa. 3) in the same MMW, kAmayA is given as a formula 'for the love'. Hence, it's not strictly impossible that tArakA would be born from a false cut of a *tAra-kAmaya-yuddha 'the fight for the love of tArA'. Going further would need a fine study of the texts (is the word 'kAma' used significatively in some versions of the story ?) but the Sarma's remark was perhaps not so stupid ;-) Regards, Dominique PS: many thanks to all who send me very interresting answers about the tIrthAbhiSeka and other subjects. I've don't forget you but I need time to obtain and read the references you gave me. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Dec 6 16:39:12 1997 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 17:39:12 +0100 Subject: Goddess names Message-ID: <161227034245.23782.10554273441448987889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1) are other attestations of -kA used with Goddess's names ? I don't found >any *durgakA, *laksSmikA, *srikA, &c. Raadhikaa is a common enough alternate form of Raadhaa. Also, someone mentioned Kaalikaa for Kaalii. Martin Gansten From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Dec 7 01:45:11 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 20:45:11 -0500 Subject: rescuing things In-Reply-To: <199712061835.AAA28174@ad1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034252.23782.7528443313536210272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We need to make a whole team of people in India to locate scripts and help microfilm/digitize. Any idea on what the government's interest has been on preservation? Facilities? Kindly advise. Bijoy Misra On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Anil Gupta wrote: > I am not an indologist nor am I a scholar in sanskrit. But I do have > interest in culture and its conections with systems of thought. > > I do feel that stemming erosion of knowledge is un urgent task. Thsu not > just written material but also oral material. I also realise that soem of > teh inetrnational scholars are more serious and systematic in doing this > just as many Indian scholars do this very carefully. > > The point Bijoy made was simple. Unless local community of scholars and > students can access teh so conserevd knowledge, it will only increase the > assymetry in knowledge and power to use it for different purposes. > Obviously no body is arguing here that outsdiers in nay society can be more > concerned about how that society should progress, move forward and engage > in discourse on nay subject. But, I will also not argue that my stake in my > society stem merely because I am born here. There are any number of Indians > who are unfair, unjust and unethical as far as knowledge prodcution and > reprodcution is concrend. It took me long time ( 15 years) to discover in > 1986 that much of my work was published in English langauge which most > peopel whose knowledeg I wrote about did not understand aND THUS coudl not > critique. > That is how metaphor of Hoeny bee was discovered and network on local > langauge comunication of local innovations was started in 1988-89. ( > http://csf.colorado.edu/sristi/) > > I think rescuing, restoring, rehabilitation and reconstruction are al > required. Who does it how and when and for how long and with whom in mind > will determine who benefits from it. > > > I think it was agood discussion, notwithstanding teh anger and impatience > shown by a few > > > anil > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 7 05:31:06 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 21:31:06 -0800 Subject: Hanuman and Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227034255.23782.6527573250524137818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I find that the first name hanuman ( or it's equivalent Maruti) being very prevalent in Maharashtra and Karnataka...I believe it's prevalence in Karnataka can be explained by the influence of the Madhva tradition here( which declares Madhva and Hanuman to be co-incarnations) a theme which in turn(AFAIK) was harped on in the dasakUTa but can anybody give me the reason for it's being so popular in Maharashtra? I remember reading that Ramdas, the guru of Shivaji ( i.e. the Chattrapati) was a worshipper of Hanuman but did Shivaji have anything to do with his being a popular diety in Maharashtra? ( or for that matter, is Hanuman a popular deity in Maharashtra?) Is there any special cult/group in Maharashtra that has hanuman as one of the chief dieties? Any hints, references, pointers would be gratefully appreciated... REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thompson at JLC.NET Sun Dec 7 02:10:26 1997 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 22:10:26 -0400 Subject: Anagrams and Phonetic Wordplay Message-ID: <161227034254.23782.4853936054816479723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I seem to vaguely remember a study on wordplay and anagrams--possibily >even phonetic ones--in Vedic lit. Does anyone know of such an entity? > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >John Robert Gardner Obermann Center >School of Religion for Advanced Studies >University of Iowa University of Iowa >319-335-2164 319-335-4034 >http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John, There is actually quite a lot on wordplay and anagrams. For the RV, discussion of these phenomena has been ongoing for a long time. Saussure a long time ago noticed such things in his notebooks published posthumously by Starobinski. You will find there Saussure's interesting analysis of the vibhakti-play on the name of Agni in RV 1.1, as well as the play on the names *agni* and *aGgiras*. Geldner was certainly aware of these phenomena. There are references to them scattered throughout his translation and commentary. Likewise, references to such things can be found quite often in Renou's EVP. See also Thieme on 'Sprachmalerei' and Elizarenkova's 1995 book as well. I recall an article by Saverio Sani as well, and no doubt Gonda has written about such things somewhere. Why, I think that I also have mentioned this sort of thing somewhere, although for the life of me I can't remember where. I'm sure that there are other references that have slipped my mind, or that I just have not run across. Perhaps others can supply more references. Indo-Europeanists like Toporov and Watkins have also called attention to anagrams, etc., in the RV. And Martin Schwartz has discovered elaborate wordplay in the Gathas of Zarathustra, which would confirm that such practices were surely a prominent feature of proto-Indo-Iranian poetics, and apparently an IE phenomenon as well. I'm sorry not to give detailed bibliographic references right now [it is the end of the present semester, of course]. I can track these down for you if needed. I send this quick note just to assure you that you are right to pursue an interest in such things. They are an important feature of Vedic poetics Best wishes, George Thompson From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 6 18:29:31 1997 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 97 23:59:31 +0530 Subject: rescuing things Message-ID: <161227034247.23782.16069761442761623687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not an indologist nor am I a scholar in sanskrit. But I do have interest in culture and its conections with systems of thought. I do feel that stemming erosion of knowledge is un urgent task. Thsu not just written material but also oral material. I also realise that soem of teh inetrnational scholars are more serious and systematic in doing this just as many Indian scholars do this very carefully. The point Bijoy made was simple. Unless local community of scholars and students can access teh so conserevd knowledge, it will only increase the assymetry in knowledge and power to use it for different purposes. Obviously no body is arguing here that outsdiers in nay society can be more concerned about how that society should progress, move forward and engage in discourse on nay subject. But, I will also not argue that my stake in my society stem merely because I am born here. There are any number of Indians who are unfair, unjust and unethical as far as knowledge prodcution and reprodcution is concrend. It took me long time ( 15 years) to discover in 1986 that much of my work was published in English langauge which most peopel whose knowledeg I wrote about did not understand aND THUS coudl not critique. That is how metaphor of Hoeny bee was discovered and network on local langauge comunication of local innovations was started in 1988-89. ( http://csf.colorado.edu/sristi/) I think rescuing, restoring, rehabilitation and reconstruction are al required. Who does it how and when and for how long and with whom in mind will determine who benefits from it. I think it was agood discussion, notwithstanding teh anger and impatience shown by a few anil From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sun Dec 7 03:16:42 1997 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 03:16:42 +0000 Subject: Graha's epithets Message-ID: <161227034260.23782.5759325480817763131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the question as to whether Taarakaa could refer to the goddess Taaraa, I don't know whether this has any relevance, but I just purchased a compilation of hymns to Kaalii in which that goddess is frequently addressed as Kaalikaa. Apologies for any irrelevance. Joel. Dr. Joel Tatelman, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. Fax: (608) 265-3538 From Vaidix at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 11:41:26 1997 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 06:41:26 -0500 Subject: rescuing things Message-ID: <161227034265.23782.6640456125356008195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste In my previous letter I suggested that materials can be rescued as a "loan". Please let me continue this discussion. Now I demand that all those individuals who are currently in possession of Indological materials must symbolically consider such materials as a "loan" from India whatever the current legal status of these materials may be. Here are my argements: Please let me explain the work effort that has gone into Rg.Veda. Even if we accept the myopic 1500BC as the date when RG Veda was composed, it is 3500 years ago from now. There were 1000 recensions of it as we were told, and today we have just one or two. Therefore on an average we have 500 recensions at any time assuming a straight line method of loss. Assuming 100 people are needed to maintain each recension (about 10 Hindu Undivided families of 10 people each including housewives, and the palm leaf workers), the total work effort regarding RG Veda is 3500 X 500 X 100 = 175 million man years. If you consider the fact that most of these materials were lost after 1000AD (therefore straight line method is not valid), and the fact that RG Veda is much older than 1500BC; and the fact that more than the miniscule 100 people worked on each recension at any time, the work effort regarding RG Veda must be many billion man years. On the same lines, the efforts of those western scholars who preserved and studied the Indological subjects in turn must now to be counted into the man years for RgVeda and other scriptures. I am thankful and indebted to every one who had rescued the Vedas and every other Indological material. I will continue to be thankful if more materials are rescued in whatever possible way, even by illegal transport, or even theft. Our epic figures rAma and kriSna had set precedents at times doing apparently illegal acts in order to protect Dharma. All such acts will be absolved when the final result is to uphold the Dharma. Now it is certainly not an act of Dharma to deny free access to the descendents of those who originally brought the Indological materials till date. The efforts of rescuers for the last 200 years had saved many documents, but no scholar can make real psychological progress in the study of Indology without getting back to the people who were the cause of those materials. I am not saying that others can not understand Indology, but following Dharma is the only way to understand Indology. Dharma is the spirit behind Indology, and any study done without following Dharma is a mere waste. Now please let me explain the tenets based on which these Indologial materials were maintained in India all these thousands of years. 1. All education is free and at no cost to the student. I understand that with loss of royal patronage, this is not feasible any more. 2. kavi prayogam vyAkaraNam. The indological subjects are not mere arts and sciences. They are divine subjects revealed by people who are established in Existence. Even now if a poet is born among us and uses a new grammar rule unheard of, it has to be accepted by all existing scholars. 3. The knowledge belongs to those who know the highest, whatever be their nationality, race, caste etc, and not to those who legally own the mss. or printed books/micro films. It is unethical on the part of any Indologist to say that Brahmins monopolized this knowledge, while I also agree it is apparently true. Keeping this knowledge within the confines of a select few who had the royal patronage is the ONLY way to preserve the subject for so many thousands of years because there were no microfilms and cd-Roms in those days. It was kept orally and on palm leafs. Entire societies were designed solely for the purpose of maintaining the books, and some so called lower castes suffered. I also admit there were excesses committed by some or some people just enjoyed the status without distributing this knowledge. But this is no precedent for any of us to follow. We must get back to the people of India and allow them access to all those materials. Any entrepreneurial efforts from India to publish these materials MUST be allowed with a one time payment based on actual cost of maintaining them since aquisition, WITHOUT payment of royalties. I fully understand that the organizations that hold these materials may have different legal clauses in place, but I request all Indologial scholars to advise their University administrators to symbolically consider these materials as a loan from India, and negotiate reasonable terms with publishers. Now for those who still do not want to yield, here is my part of the challenge regarding the subject I know. 1. Define the deities BRhaspati, indra, maruts, viSNu and Rudra in terms of components of knowledge namely the Known, the Unknown and the Desirable, and explain to me their positions in the human body, and the meditations and prANAyAmAs regarding them. 2. Explain to me clearly the meaning of consecration sacrifice in terms of agni and viSNu along with the meditation regarding consecration sacrifice. Those who can not explain this to me would symbolically lose ownership of Vedic materials. I am not saying I know everything, but if you let me humbly put it up in this sabhA, clearly no one else knows what I know. If you know something that I don't, please teach me. I will be answering the above questions (when I find time) at the site http://members.aol.com/vaidix. This site is primarily meant to explore prANAyAmAs contained in the Vedas. Efforts to translate to other languages are welcome. Please visit. Thank you all Bhadraiah Mallampalli From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 7 07:06:08 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 07:06:08 +0000 Subject: Graha's epithets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034257.23782.5579291032768447671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:37 PM 12/6/97 +0100, Dominique.Thillaud writes: > I agree for the button's technic, but > >1) are other attestations of -kA used with Goddess's names ? I don't found >any *durgakA, *laksSmikA, *srikA, &c. And reNukA is so named because she is >the DAUGHTER of reNu, ambikA and ambalikA are SISTERS of ambA. >2) using the MMW and restraining to the meanigs 'wife of bRhaspati', tArA >and tArakAmaya seem a bit older (MBh) than tArakA (VP), if we must follow >the Indian tradition giving parAzara as the son of vyAsa. >3) in the same MMW, kAmayA is given as a formula 'for the love'. > > Hence, it's not strictly impossible that tArakA would be born from >a false cut of a *tAra-kAmaya-yuddha 'the fight for the love of tArA'. >Going further would need a fine study of the texts (is the word 'kAma' used >significatively in some versions of the story ?) but the Sarma's remark was >perhaps not so stupid ;-) > > Regards, >Dominique > >PS: many thanks to all who send me very interresting answers about the >tIrthAbhiSeka and other subjects. I've don't forget you but I need time to >obtain and read the references you gave me. > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > I have gone through the relevent portion of the Vishnu Purana. The name of the wife of bRhaspati is stated as tArA only. Nowhere as tArakA. Only the name of the war is given as tArakAmaya. `Evam ca tayOr atIvOgrasangramas tArAnimittas tArakAmayO nAmAbhUt.' On the basis of this single occurance concluding that bRhaspati's wife has also a name tArakA will be possible if we give the word `tArakAmaya' the meaning `full of tArakA' or `pervaded by tArakA'. This sounds a very odd way of describing that war. That was a war `for tArA' or `because of tArA'. MMW's explanation 'for the love of tArA' may not be very much off the mark. regards, sarma. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Dec 7 12:54:10 1997 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 07:54:10 -0500 Subject: Hanuman and Maharashtra In-Reply-To: <19971207053106.9271.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227034267.23782.10042889887235092872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At the village level in Maharashtra, the most popular divinities are Hanuman, Ganesha and Devi. Consider even a city like Pune, which has literally hundreds of small temples of Hanuman. Tradition believes that it was Ramadasa, Shivaji's guru who promoted the setting up of Hanuman temples, but there may be prior history to these temples. Shivaji himself is, again by the tradition, more closely associated with the goddess Bhavani. Evidently his own sword was named after Bhavani. I suspect that there are deeper historical connections between Karnataka and Maharashtra, and the popularity of Hanuman in both of these regions probably is one of those connections. Of course, there are large Madhva followers especially in southern Maharashtra. Not only Hanuman appears as a common first name, besides Maruti, Marut Rao etc., it also shows up in some Marathi last names, i.e. HaNmante. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, S Krishna wrote: > I find that the first name hanuman ( or it's equivalent Maruti) being > very prevalent in Maharashtra and Karnataka...I believe it's prevalence > in Karnataka can be explained by the influence of the Madhva tradition > here( which declares Madhva and Hanuman to be co-incarnations) a theme > which in turn(AFAIK) was harped on in the dasakUTa but can anybody give > me the reason for it's being so popular in Maharashtra? I remember > reading that Ramdas, the guru of Shivaji > ( i.e. the Chattrapati) was a worshipper of Hanuman but did Shivaji have > anything to do with his being a popular diety in Maharashtra? > ( or for that matter, is Hanuman a popular deity in Maharashtra?) > Is there any special cult/group in Maharashtra that has hanuman as one > of the chief dieties? Any hints, references, pointers would be > gratefully appreciated... > > REgards, > Krishna > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Dec 7 19:30:02 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 13:30:02 -0600 Subject: Hanuman and Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227034273.23782.8237146031920587948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, S Krishna wrote: > >> I find that the first name hanuman ( or it's equivalent Maruti) being >> very prevalent in Maharashtra and Karnataka...I believe it's prevalence >> in Karnataka can be explained by the influence of the Madhva tradition I do not think it has just to do with the Madhwa tradition. Madhwa tradition is only a few hundred years old. The question is also - why is Shri Madhwacharya thought to be a incarnation of Hanuman. Traditionally, Karnataka is also considered the area for the original Kishkindha region. Avani in Kolar District of Karnataka is also a place where Sita brought up both Lava & Kusha. The temples in Avani are in very bad shape and are in urgent need of maintenance work. BTW, Kolar has a large monkey population and especially in the afternoon it is a common sight to see a large group of monkeys descend onto the town and plunder all the mango and coconut trees. S.Subrahmanya From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Dec 7 19:43:47 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 13:43:47 -0600 Subject: rescuing things Message-ID: <161227034275.23782.6219191906080082777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 12/06/97 20:45:11 you wrote: >We need to make a whole team of people in India to locate >scripts and help microfilm/digitize. Any idea on what the >government's interest has been on preservation? >Facilities? AFAIK, the Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam has some kind of a effort that is involved in trying to preserve MSS. The Indian govt is "secular" and nothing that might be in the interest of the majority religion should be encouraged. Subrahmanya From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 7 14:06:26 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 14:06:26 +0000 Subject: Graha's epithets In-Reply-To: <199712070912.DAA92480@mail5.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227034269.23782.18268863038224697287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:16 AM 12/7/97 -0000, you wrote: >Regarding the question as to whether Taarakaa could refer to the goddess >Taaraa, I don't know whether this has any relevance, but I just purchased >a compilation of hymns to Kaalii in which that goddess is frequently >addressed as Kaalikaa. > >Apologies for any irrelevance. > >Joel. > >Dr. Joel Tatelman, >Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, >Department of South Asian Studies, >University of Wisconsin-Madison, >1250 Van Hise Hall, >1220 Linden Drive, >Madison, WI 53706 > >Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. >Fax: (608) 265-3538 > > Dear Mr.tatelman, In puranic literature we have three tArAs 1. bRhaspati's wife tArA 2. vAli's wife tArA 3. hariscandrA's wife tArAmati also called tArA In addition to these three you have in budhhist tantrA's two godesses 1. White tArA 2. Blue or black tArA These have later entered the Hindu tantrA's also. We are discussing here the bRhaspati's wife tArA. regards, sarma. From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 7 08:47:00 1997 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 14:17:00 +0530 Subject: rescuing things Message-ID: <161227034263.23782.5344379374320396159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indian governmnet has extractive policies such as in Ethnobotany research. iN THSI OPROGRAM TRIBAL AND LOCAL KNOWLEDGE OF PEOPLE IS COLLeCTED BUT ARCHIVED IN FORMAL SCIENTIfIC INStITUTES AND NOT MADE AVAILBLE TO LOCAL COMMUNITIES ON CASSETS ( ORAL HIStory) or in print form we know that literacy levels and drop out rates are highest in regions with highest diversity ( cultural as well as biological). I do feel that we need to have a comprehensive initiative in Voluntary sector in which local art, literature and folk history etc., are recorded and mae avaoilbale to local communities to foster lateral learning as well as for future geenrations. To me any research which is not fed back to those who provided data in their language is unethical. At least that is my position and I do not want to pass judjments on nay body else's morals. We shoudl not look up to governmnets. Literature will survive not just by Indology insitutes but by keeping it alive as a subject of discourse. ---------- all the best > From: Bijoy Misra > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: rescuing things > Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 07:15 > > We need to make a whole team of people in India to locate > scripts and help microfilm/digitize. Any idea on what the > government's interest has been on preservation? > Facilities? > > Kindly advise. > > Bijoy Misra > > > On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Anil Gupta wrote: > > > I am not an indologist nor am I a scholar in sanskrit. But I do have > > interest in culture and its conections with systems of thought. > > > > I do feel that stemming erosion of knowledge is un urgent task. Thsu not > > just written material but also oral material. I also realise that soem of > > teh inetrnational scholars are more serious and systematic in doing this > > just as many Indian scholars do this very carefully. > > > > The point Bijoy made was simple. Unless local community of scholars and > > students can access teh so conserevd knowledge, it will only increase the > > assymetry in knowledge and power to use it for different purposes. > > Obviously no body is arguing here that outsdiers in nay society can be more > > concerned about how that society should progress, move forward and engage > > in discourse on nay subject. But, I will also not argue that my stake in my > > society stem merely because I am born here. There are any number of Indians > > who are unfair, unjust and unethical as far as knowledge prodcution and > > reprodcution is concrend. It took me long time ( 15 years) to discover in > > 1986 that much of my work was published in English langauge which most > > peopel whose knowledeg I wrote about did not understand aND THUS coudl not > > critique. > > That is how metaphor of Hoeny bee was discovered and network on local > > langauge comunication of local innovations was started in 1988-89. ( > > http://csf.colorado.edu/sristi/) > > > > I think rescuing, restoring, rehabilitation and reconstruction are al > > required. Who does it how and when and for how long and with whom in mind > > will determine who benefits from it. > > > > > > I think it was agood discussion, notwithstanding teh anger and impatience > > shown by a few > > > > > > anil > > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 00:17:03 1997 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 16:17:03 -0800 Subject: Hanuman and Narada Message-ID: <161227034277.23782.15925953981975408376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to know where more details can be found about the following episode involving hanumAn and nArada: tumburu and nArada get into a big argument about who is the better musician and go to vishNu for a judgement. vishNu summons hanumAn in order to demonstrate what good music is. hanumAn then sings a few rAgas in order to demonstrate how intense can be the effect generated by a certain rAga- he sings one rAga and the vINas of tumburu and nArada freeze, he sings another rAga and the vINas unfreeze. "This" vishNu tells nArada and tumburu, "is what music is all about". Can anybody give me the name of the purANa in which this incident is refered to? I remember reading this nearly fifteen years ago in the CandamAmA ( the children's magazine) but cannot hunt up a reference for this now. Any pointers will be appreciated. REgards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From durga at FSUI02.FNAL.GOV Mon Dec 8 00:20:52 1997 From: durga at FSUI02.FNAL.GOV (Durga) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 18:20:52 -0600 Subject: Hanuman and Narada In-Reply-To: <19971208001703.22734.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227034279.23782.17372353710145511363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > I would like to know where more details can be found about the > following episode involving hanumAn and nArada: > > tumburu and nArada get into a big argument about who is the better > musician and go to vishNu for a judgement. vishNu summons hanumAn in > order to demonstrate what good music is. hanumAn then sings a few rAgas > in order to demonstrate how intense can be the effect generated by a > certain rAga- he sings one rAga and the vINas of tumburu and nArada > freeze, he sings another rAga and the vINas unfreeze. "This" vishNu > tells nArada and tumburu, "is what music is all about". > > Can anybody give me the name of the purANa in which this incident is > refered to? I remember reading this nearly fifteen years ago in the > CandamAmA ( the children's magazine) but cannot hunt up a reference for > this now. > Any pointers will be appreciated. > > REgards, > Krishna > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From durga at FSUI02.FNAL.GOV Mon Dec 8 00:39:13 1997 From: durga at FSUI02.FNAL.GOV (Durga) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 18:39:13 -0600 Subject: Sorry ! In-Reply-To: <199712080020.SAA14391@fsui02.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <161227034280.23782.6382550645291612686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry about the previous post, which wasn't a post or intended to be one, just a slip of the finger. Sorry :( From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Sun Dec 7 18:37:36 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 21:37:36 +0300 Subject: Graha epithets (tAra and tArakA) Message-ID: <161227034271.23782.4953986888235875368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dec.6 Dominique Thillaud wrote: <1) are other attestations of -kA used with Goddess's names ? I don't found Message-ID: <161227034283.23782.6657319127019655325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:37 +0100 7/12/97, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > To begin with, kAmayA, acc. to MMW, is an indeclinable word which does >not appear in any compound and, after all, as MMW remarks, it is >"OMLY USED WITH brUhi AND pra-brUhi". Yes, that prooves kAmayA is an old syntagm, coming from a 'formula' (see E. Benveniste, Problemes de linguistique generale 1, chap. 23, on the delocutive forms). Hence, not necessarily submitted to the standard rules ! > On the other hand, the compound meaning "the fight for the love of >tArA" would look like *tArA-kAmayA-yuddha (not *tAra-kAmaya-yuddha). To >make the false cut of the compound, an ancient Indian singer of tales had >to make the double mistake, taking two long vowels for two short ones, which >I doubt that he did. So the suggestion made by Dominique Thillaud, though >witty and tempting, is, I am afraid, not valid. Don't be afraid ! You can't simply give the compound form of a name without knowing what is his nude form in the mind of your ancient Indian singer. Moreover, there is the possibility of using case forms in compounds. If we believe to a delocution, tAra can be an old vocative (see ved. amba!). Following blindly the rules is not the right way : If rAdhA / rAdhikA, why tArakA and not *tArikA ? If the last A of tArA is not coming from an H2 (A/i), the nude form tAra is not impossible. I'm not sure I'm right, but I'm not sure you're right ;-) Best regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 8 15:00:11 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 10:00:11 -0500 Subject: rescuing things In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034295.23782.1428465891919089325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > "The flowing waters of a spring are for everyone, nobody have the > right to seize it and restrain it's use" > Two ways a stream gets dry: Put a dam at the source. I think this happened to stifle production more than once. Or, if the outtake is more than the input. It's the latter in progress in recent times (IMHO) How do you take care of the stream? Make embankments. Let the stream flow and survive.. Enjoy it, not owning it! I will have more comments on other topics later. - Bijoy Misra From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 8 12:23:28 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 12:23:28 +0000 Subject: Graha Epithets (tArA and tArakA) Message-ID: <161227034285.23782.17102182982234276532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have gone through the versions given in matsya and brhmANDa purANAs. bRhaspati's wife's name is given as tArA only in both of them. No where do either of them call her tArakA. matsya purANa does not give a name to the battle. bRahmaNDa puraNa which seems to be following visNu and matsya gives the name of the battle as tArakAmaya. (Some slokas of matsya appear verbatim in brahmNDa.) The account in matsya purANa gives greater details. Budha, the son of candra and tArA, is the author of a medical treatise on the treatement of elephants called rAjaputrIya.(rAja = candra)! Both bRhaspati and candra were hopelessly in love with tArA is attested in matsya purAnNa. `bhAryAm ca tAm dEvagurOranaGgabANAbhirAmAyatacArunEtrAm tArAm sa tArAdhipatih smarArtah kEzESu jagrAha viviktabhUmau sApi smarArtA saha tEna rEmE tadrUpakAntyA hRtamAnasEna chiram vihRtyAdha jagAma tArAm vidhurgRhItvA svagRham tatO~pi na tRptirAsIcca grhE~pi tasya tArAnuraktasya sukhAgamESu bRhaspatistadvirahAgnidagdhas taddhyAnaniSThaikamanA babhUva ............................................................ sa yAcayAmAsa tatastu dainyAt sOmam svabhAryArtham anaGgataptah sa yAcyamAnO~pi dadau na tArAm bRhaspatEs tatsukhapAzabaddhah'. I have not been able to locate the episode in kUrma purANa. harivamza and bhAgavata puranas also give the name as tArA only and do not touch the tArakA. Both of them give the name of the battle as tArakAmaya. Whether the `ka' is `svArthE'(as a synonym) or `alpE'(to indicate small quantity) or `hrasvE'(to indicate shortness), I think it is only for common nouns not for proper nouns. bRhaspati`s wife`s name tArA is a proper noun. amarakOza gives `nakSatramRkSam bham tArA tArakApyudu vA striyam' only for the common noun `star'. We have a very peculiar situation here. None of the purANAs I have consulted so far,call tArA as tArakA. Most of them give the name of the battle as tArakAmaya. regards, sarma. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Dec 8 13:50:38 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 13:50:38 +0000 Subject: Q. IGNCA In-Reply-To: <01IQTHHQIQEA001IX8@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227034289.23782.7478674408475521955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, N. Ganesan wrote: > Incidentally, Institute of Asian studies, Madras is publishing several > volumes on Tamil palm leaf catalogs. Many Tamil books published decades > ago are easily available at Univ. of Koeln. When I give photocopies of > rare published works to Tamil vidhvans, literally tears run down > (aananda bhashpam). Many Roja Muttaiya libray and Saiva siddhanta > kazakam collections' microfilms will be available from Chicago. ... and the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine in London. The Wellcome Institute is buying microfilm copies of the medical-related texts from the RMRL collection. Combined with the other historical collections and staff at the Wellcome Institute, it is now possible to do substantial historical research on Tamil siddha and medical traditions at the Wellcome Institute. We hope in coming years to encourage scholars interested in these topics to use our collections for research. The Wellcome Trust is proud to be associated with the Roja Muthiah Research Library project. Through the inspired work of the late lamented P. Sankaralingam and his colleagues, the RMRL has emerged as a collection of international renown. As a result of the vision of Chicago University coupled with funding from the Wellcome Trust, the Ford Foundation, and other bodies, a great collection has been conserved, catalogued, and made publicly available in Chennai, as well as abroad (through microfilming). > I agree with Dominik. The charges on books from British library are way > high. I'm afraid I didn't say this. Must be some other "Dominik" :-) All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From thillaud at UNICE.FR Mon Dec 8 13:16:55 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 14:16:55 +0100 Subject: rescuing things In-Reply-To: <8d32a4ad.348a8b69@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034291.23782.16324562876782637374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:41 +0100 7/12/97, Vaidix wrote: >Those who can not explain this to me would symbolically lose ownership of >Vedic materials. In my personal ideology, each human beeing is the owner of all human productions, independantly of the fact he understand it well or not. In my personal ideology, the guru is an user of the verb 'to open', not of the verb 'to close'. Once time, in the course of a wonderful night, the God Hermes have said to me: "The flowing waters of a spring are for everyone, nobody have the right to seize it and restrain it's use" Hence, I can't agree with you. If you are a Veda's lover, please, don't act as vRtra ! Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thillaud at UNICE.FR Mon Dec 8 13:30:17 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 14:30:17 +0100 Subject: Hanuman and Narada In-Reply-To: <19971208001703.22734.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227034293.23782.3587692337124400570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 1:17 +0100 8/12/97, S Krishna wrote: > I would like to know where more details can be found about the >following episode involving hanumAn and nArada: > > tumburu and nArada get into a big argument about who is the better >musician and go to vishNu for a judgement. vishNu summons hanumAn in >order to demonstrate what good music is. hanumAn then sings a few rAgas >in order to demonstrate how intense can be the effect generated by a >certain rAga- he sings one rAga and the vINas of tumburu and nArada >freeze, he sings another rAga and the vINas unfreeze. "This" vishNu >tells nArada and tumburu, "is what music is all about". > > Can anybody give me the name of the purANa in which this incident is >refered to? I remember reading this nearly fifteen years ago in the >CandamAmA ( the children's magazine) but cannot hunt up a reference for >this now. > Any pointers will be appreciated. I don't know the answer you ask, but I find very interresting that, beeing vAyu's, Hanuman is here, as the wind, a master of songs and frost. Do you know other examples of this relationship (Achilleus, an other wind-hero, was a skilful singer) ? Something about bhIma ? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Mon Dec 8 14:07:20 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 15:07:20 +0100 Subject: Graha Epithets (tArA and tArakA) Message-ID: <161227034287.23782.18240127032444365754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> tArakA as synonym for tArA would indeed be a little bit strange - one would expect tArikA. I think we have to take tAraka as an adjective derivation from tArA, like aumakA from umA or aurNaka from UrNA (cf. Wackernagel/Debrunner, AIG II, p. 145). The meaning would then be . The second element of tArakAmaya can then not be -maya. It is, I believe, Amaya; thus already Apte, Sanskrit-English Dictionary I, p. 345, with reference to RAm. 6.4.54 devAnAm iva sainyAni saNgrAme tArakAmaye. But the meaning given by Apte does not seem to fit, as tArA is not hurt at all in the story. I would, therefore, take Amaya (from A-minAti, A-mayate) as , because this is what it is all about: tArA changes her husband: first it is BRhaspati, then Soma, and in the end BRhaspati again. So the term tArakAmaya might mean <(the fight) concerning tArA's (ex)change of husband>. Wouldn't this make good sense? Or am I pushing the button too quickly? Regards, Georg v. Simson From roheko at MSN.COM Mon Dec 8 18:27:31 1997 From: roheko at MSN.COM (Rolf Heiner Koch) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 19:27:31 +0100 Subject: udAharaNa / dRSTAnta carita : kalpita Message-ID: <161227034297.23782.16964982969500722910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> are the terms for a certain type of literal sources. Since the definition according to the Nybyb-sources are not sufficient I am asking kindly the members for any advice for literal source where carita (purANa) "hero-legend?" is set into contrast to kalpita "fiction?" and/or where udAharaNa "example" is limited from dRSTAnta "simplified dogmatical expositions for the ordinaries?". KAvya-theories are lesser helpful. Mfg RHK roheko at msn.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 9 11:11:57 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 06:11:57 -0500 Subject: rescuing things In-Reply-To: <8d32a4ad.348a8b69@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034299.23782.3466377751694306860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Vaidix wrote: > > Please let me explain the work effort that has gone into Rg.Veda. Even if we > accept the myopic 1500BC as the date when RG Veda was composed, it is 3500 > years ago from now. There were 1000 recensions of it as we were told, and > today we have just one or two. Therefore on an average we have 500 recensions > at any time assuming a straight line method of loss. Assuming 100 people are > needed to maintain each recension (about 10 Hindu Undivided families of 10 > people each including housewives, and the palm leaf workers), the total work > effort regarding RG Veda is 3500 X 500 X 100 = 175 million man years. If you > consider the fact that most of these materials were lost after 1000AD > (therefore straight line method is not valid), and the fact that RG Veda is > much older than 1500BC; and the fact that more than the miniscule 100 people > worked on each recension at any time, the work effort regarding RG Veda must > be many billion man years. > On rescuing vedas, Jayadeva wrote: PraLayaprayodhijaLe dhR^tavanasi vedam vihitavahitracharitamakhedam keshavadhR^ta mInas'arIra.. > > Now for those who still do not want to yield, here is my part of the challenge > regarding the subject I know. > > 1. Define the deities BRhaspati, indra, maruts, viSNu and Rudra in terms of > components of knowledge namely the Known, the Unknown and the Desirable, and > explain to me their positions in the human body, and the meditations and > prANAyAmAs regarding them. > > 2. Explain to me clearly the meaning of consecration sacrifice in terms of > agni and viSNu along with the meditation regarding consecration sacrifice. I humbly admit that these are beyond me, could be for others (loan or no loan). Are there rewards for the efforts? Why not post your "answers" here? - BM From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Dec 9 14:33:40 1997 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 09:33:40 -0500 Subject: query Message-ID: <161227034303.23782.2639870770083269040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A colleague has been inquiring after Prof. Mohammad Abdur Rehman Barker (MARR Barker). Does anyone know his current whereabouts and affiliation (and contact information)? Many thanks. David Magier magier at columbia.edu From keulrich at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Dec 9 16:48:34 1997 From: keulrich at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Katherine Eirene Ulrich) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 10:48:34 -0600 Subject: Kill before being killed Message-ID: <161227034308.23782.13246275267424362419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a fourteenth century commentary on the Tamil Jain text NIlakEci (verse 286), a woman decides to push her husband off a cliff before he kills her. She refers to a 'wise saying': taR kolliyai muR kolliya, kill before the killing of oneself. Does anyone know where this proverb comes from? It is possible that the commentator took liberties with an existing proverb or even invented it, but it would be very useful to identify a source. (btw, she does kill him, and goes on to become a Buddhist nun) Thanks in advance for any suggestions, Katherine Ulrich keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Tue Dec 9 11:19:12 1997 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 12:19:12 +0100 Subject: Anagrams and Phonetic Wordplay Message-ID: <161227034301.23782.4382061271822593098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JR Gardner wrote: > > I seem to vaguely remember a study on wordplay and anagrams--possibily > even phonetic ones--in Vedic lit. Does anyone know of such an entity? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > John Robert Gardner Obermann Center > School of Religion for Advanced Studies > University of Iowa University of Iowa > 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 > http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other > than that of which it is the transformation. Dear Professor Gardner, The following article may be interesting to you: CHRISTOL, Alain, Un verlan Indo-Iranien ? LALIES, Actes des sessions de linguistique et de litterature V,1987, p.57-64. Erik Seldeslachts Universiteit Gent Gent, Belgium erik.seldeslachts at rug.ac.be From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Dec 9 16:08:17 1997 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 16:08:17 +0000 Subject: Kill before being killed Message-ID: <161227034316.23782.6556223474715277397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I cannot provide any information about the origin of the 'wise saying' taR kolliyai muR kolliya, 'kill before the killing of oneself', but, not reading Tamil, would be grateful to learn if the Tamil Jain text NIlakEci is available in an English, French or German translation. Thanks in advance, Joel. Dr. Joel Tatelman, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. Fax: (608) 265-3538 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 9 15:31:37 1997 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 16:31:37 +0100 Subject: Rudra as animal killer Message-ID: <161227034305.23782.6960325083495165812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net, in Mbh. 7.18.35, we get the following verse: tad babhau raudra b-ibhatsa.m b-ibhatsor y-anam -ahave / -akr-i.da iva rudrasya ghnata.h k-al-atyaye pa/s-un // Does anyone know about any other places where Rudra kills animals "k-al-atyaye"? I would also be interested in literature discussing Rudra's role as an animal killer. Thank you for any help! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 9 17:38:15 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 17:38:15 +0000 Subject: Forwarded message: Panini Pratisthana Message-ID: <161227034314.23782.10243097392565998287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---- forwarded for general information --- ------------------ PANINI PRATISTHANA ------------------ INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR STUDIES OF CLASSICAL LANGUAGES Corrospondance address:- c/o Mrs. S. V. Bhate 15/46, "KRATU", Nirmal Baug, Parvati, Near Muktangan highschool. Pune - 411 009 MAHARASHTRA INDIA email :- saroja at unipune.ernet.in drbhate at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Board :- Settlors : Mr. V. B. Bhagawat "BHUSHAN", Manoj Co-Op Hsg. Socity, Gultekdi. Pune - 411 037 Mr. S. D. Joshi 1317, Shrukrawar Peth, Pune - 411 002 Trustee : Mrs. S. V. Bhate 15/46, "KRATU", Nirmal Baug, Parvati, Near Muktangan highschool. Pune - 411 009 Mrs. H. V. Dole "BHUSHAN", Manoj Co-Op Hsg. Socity, Gultekdi. Pune - 411 037 Mr. V. B. Bhagawat "BHUSHAN", Manoj Co-Op Hsg. Socity, Gultekdi. Pune - 411 037 Aims and Objective : * To promote and encourage study of Panini's Scheme of Grammar both in traditional and modern methodes. * To promote and encourage fundamental research in the Panini Tradition. * To promote and encourage study of manuscripts in ancient Indian Languages and scripts. * To promote and encourage study of classical languages such as Sanskrit, Pali, Prakrit, Avesta, Tibetan, Greek and Latin. * To promote and encourage study of other Indian Languages as well as other Universal Languages such as German, French etc. * To provide facilities for the fulfilment of the above objectives. * To publish monographs, editions, translations, journals, felicitations and commemoration volumes and other litrature related to the above subjects. * To organize courses, seminars, conferences, workshops, schools and shastrarthas on the above and related subjects. * To conduct written and oral examinations in the above subjects and to give certificates to those who pass the examinations, including examinations of other academic Institutions. * To prepare curriculum and syllabus for conducting such examinations. * To distribute prizes, awards and scholarships to deserving students, scholars and Pandits in recognition of their achievements in the above subjects as well as to enable them to pursue their studies. * To collect funds and donations in order to carry out the above objectives. * To collaborate with other Institutes for organising any of the programs related to the above subjects. * To acquire by gift, purchase, exchange, lease, hire or otherwise any property movable and/or immovable and to construct, improve, alter, demolish or repair buildings and structures as may be necessary or convenient for carrying on the activities of the center. * For the purpose of the center, to draw and accept and make and endorse, discount and negotiate Goverment of India and other Promissory Notes, Bills of Exchange, cheques or other negotiable instruments. * To give donations to other instutions with simillar aims and objectives. * To takeover the entire activities of the other Institute having simillar activities, along with their assets and liabilities. Appeal : This is appeal to all the Orientological and Indological community to extend their co-operation to this organization in terms of consultation, informations, collaboration, participation and financial assistance. Mrs. S. V. Bhate Managing Trustee From emil.hersak at ZG.TEL.HR Tue Dec 9 17:56:22 1997 From: emil.hersak at ZG.TEL.HR (=?utf-8?Q?Emil_HER=C5=A0AK?=) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 17:56:22 +0000 Subject: Question Message-ID: <161227034310.23782.5412751109055883030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was wondering whether anyone on this list is using unicode TTF fonts for Indian languages on Word97, on a Pan-European or otherwise Western Win95 platform. All the Windows TTF fonts for Indian languages I have so far managed to see are simply glyph changes on other (mostly "western") code pages. Making such a font is not problematic, since I do have most of the necessary information for coding the glyphs already - the problem, however, is in generating the code pages and keyboard drivers. Actually the keyboard driver itself should not be a problem, but the nls files and the languages ID to be placed in the Windows registry. Any information on this matter will be appreciated. Emil Hersak emil.hersak at zg.tel.hr From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Tue Dec 9 18:17:23 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 19:17:23 +0100 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) Message-ID: <161227034312.23782.2830610200599021156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav Vassilkov wrote, quoting me first: >>So the term tArakAmaya might mean <(the fight) concerning tArA's (ex)change >>of husband>. Wouldn't this make good sense? Or am I pushing the button too >>quickly? > > The explanation seems to me very elegant and helpful, but there is >still one serious obstacle: *Amaya in the meaning of is at least >a very rare word, never used, as far as I can judge, by the epic tradition >(while Amaya in the sense of is common and in the sense of >, though rarely, but still used; see below). > But it is easier, of course, to criticise others' suggestions than >to offer one's own acceptable one. So I am going now to try my own guess at >the origin of the expession tArakAmayayuddha (or: samgrAma). > Meanwhile D.V.Sarma made the important contribution to the discussion >(see his letters dated Dec. 7 and 8) by citing relevant purANic passages. They >prove that there is really something strange in the alternation of the forms: >tArA / tArakA. Separately the name is always tArA, but as a part of the formula >it is tArakA. The reason, I suppose, is that the formula was borrowed from >another mythological context due to the similarity of names and confusion >of two >different myths. > In the VIIIth of the MahAbhArata (KarNaparvan) two variants of one >formula are used: > > saMgrAme tArakAmaye - VIII.6.42d > saMgrAmas tArakAmayah - VIII.24.3d. > > I would like to stress that both times NOT the fight for tArA's >hand or tArA's love is meant - but the fight of the gods against asura tAraka >(male, last vowel short). And of course tArakAmaya in this case is to be cut >(as Georg von Simson suggested) into tAraka + Amaya - the last word being >Amaya in the sense of . The whole expression means fatal/destructive/disastrous for asura tAraka>. > In purANic passages, quoted by D.V.Sarma, tArA (used separately) and >tArakA (in *tArakAmaya) are understood, of course, as synonymous (and that is >why they are viewed at as two forms of one name in the dictionaries), but >historically the bards evidently applied to the story of tArA the formula >borrowed from different myth (of asura tAraka and his war against the gods). >The mistake was caused probably by the fact that the word Amaya in the sense >of , being rather rare, had not been understood any more >by the PurANic bards or writers. Yes, you are right; the Karnaparvan-passages decide the case. And my explanation was, after all, a little far-fetched. I should have consulted Soerensen's Mahabharata Index, p. 675, s.v. T?rak?maya: "causing evil to T?raka?". Best regards, Georg v.Simson From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Tue Dec 9 16:27:01 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 19:27:01 +0300 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) Message-ID: <161227034307.23782.13638751253213887908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Tue Dec 9 11:36:25 MSK 1997 On Dec. 8 Dominique Thillaud, explaining the origin of the compound *tArakAmayayuddha, wrote: > kAmayA is an old syntagm, coming from a 'formula' >(see E. Benveniste, Problemes de linguistique generale 1, chap. 23, on the >delocutive forms). Hence, not necessarily submitted to the standard rules ! > Moreover, there is the possibility of using case forms in >compounds. If we believe to a delocution, tAra can be an old vocative (see >ved. amba!). > Following blindly the rules is not the right way : If rAdhA / >rAdhikA, why tArakA and not *tArikA ? If the last A of tArA is not coming >from an H2 (A/i), the nude form tAra is not impossible. And a very nice compound it makes: its first element is a vocative, and the second - an instrumental with a wrong ending...But if we agree not to follow blindly any rules, it is impossible to raise any objection. So, it's OK, OK...Especially because I do not know what the delocution is. But our more conservative colleague Georg von Simson still follows all the rules: >tArakA as synonym for tArA would indeed be a little bit strange - one would >expect tArikA. I think we have to take tAraka as an adjective derivation >from tArA, like aumakA from umA or aurNaka from UrNA (cf. >Wackernagel/Debrunner, AIG II, p. 145). The meaning would then be >. The second element of tArakAmaya can >then not be -maya. It is, I believe, Amaya; thus already Apte, >Sanskrit-English Dictionary I, p. 345, with reference to RAm. 6.4.54 >devAnAm iva sainyAni saNgrAme tArakAmaye. But the meaning given by Apte > does not seem to fit, as tArA is not hurt at >all in the story. I would, therefore, take Amaya (from A-minAti, A-mayate) >as , because this is what it is all about: tArA changes her >husband: first it is BRhaspati, then Soma, and in the end BRhaspati again. >So the term tArakAmaya might mean <(the fight) concerning tArA's (ex)change >of husband>. Wouldn't this make good sense? Or am I pushing the button too >quickly? The explanation seems to me very elegant and helpful, but there is still one serious obstacle: *Amaya in the meaning of is at least a very rare word, never used, as far as I can judge, by the epic tradition (while Amaya in the sense of is common and in the sense of , though rarely, but still used; see below). But it is easier, of course, to criticise others' suggestions than to offer one's own acceptable one. So I am going now to try my own guess at the origin of the expession tArakAmayayuddha (or: samgrAma). Meanwhile D.V.Sarma made the important contribution to the discussion (see his letters dated Dec. 7 and 8) by citing relevant purANic passages. They prove that there is really something strange in the alternation of the forms: tArA / tArakA. Separately the name is always tArA, but as a part of the formula it is tArakA. The reason, I suppose, is that the formula was borrowed from another mythological context due to the similarity of names and confusion of two different myths. In the VIIIth of the MahAbhArata (KarNaparvan) two variants of one formula are used: saMgrAme tArakAmaye - VIII.6.42d saMgrAmas tArakAmayah - VIII.24.3d. I would like to stress that both times NOT the fight for tArA's hand or tArA's love is meant - but the fight of the gods against asura tAraka (male, last vowel short). And of course tArakAmaya in this case is to be cut (as Georg von Simson suggested) into tAraka + Amaya - the last word being Amaya in the sense of . The whole expression means . In purANic passages, quoted by D.V.Sarma, tArA (used separately) and tArakA (in *tArakAmaya) are understood, of course, as synonymous (and that is why they are viewed at as two forms of one name in the dictionaries), but historically the bards evidently applied to the story of tArA the formula borrowed from different myth (of asura tAraka and his war against the gods). The mistake was caused probably by the fact that the word Amaya in the sense of , being rather rare, had not been understood any more by the PurANic bards or writers. Best regards to all Yaroslav Vassilkov St Petersburg Institute of Oriental Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences. From keulrich at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Dec 10 05:25:43 1997 From: keulrich at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Katherine Eirene Ulrich) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 23:25:43 -0600 Subject: Kill before being killed Message-ID: <161227034318.23782.6775720604985037525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as I know, the only European-language version is an English summary (not translation) by A. Chakravarti (1936). -- Katherine Ulrich >I cannot provide any information about the origin of the 'wise saying' > >taR kolliyai muR kolliya, 'kill before the killing of oneself', > >but, not reading Tamil, would be grateful to learn if the Tamil Jain text >NIlakEci is available in an English, French or German translation. > >Thanks in advance, > >Joel. > > > >Dr. Joel Tatelman, >Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, >Department of South Asian Studies, >University of Wisconsin-Madison, >1250 Van Hise Hall, >1220 Linden Drive, >Madison, WI 53706 > >Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. >Fax: (608) 265-3538 From 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU Wed Dec 10 05:42:59 1997 From: 5z26kandiahr at VMS.CSD.MU.EDU (Ramani) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 23:42:59 -0600 Subject: Kill before being killed Message-ID: <161227034323.23782.14757131592879033317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:25 PM 12/9/97 -0600, you wrote: >As far as I know, the only European-language version is an English summary >(not translation) by A. Chakravarti (1936). -- Katherine Ulrich >>but, not reading Tamil, would be grateful to learn if the Tamil Jain text >>NIlakEci is available in an English, French or German translation. >> Is it kuNdalakEci or NIlakEci? (I have less idea about it; Please forgive me if my question makes no(n) sense). Ramani >>Thanks in advance, >> >>Joel. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 05:53:41 1997 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Palaniappa) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 00:53:41 -0500 Subject: Kill before being killed Message-ID: <161227034319.23782.4734260909298935392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-12-09 12:13:11 EST, keulrich at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes: << In a fourteenth century commentary on the Tamil Jain text NIlakEci (verse 286), a woman decides to push her husband off a cliff before he kills her. She refers to a 'wise saying': taR kolliyai muR kolliya, kill before the killing of oneself. >> The story being mentioned here is that of "kuNTalakEci" a Buddhist work which is one of the five major epics of Tamil literature (in this the protagonist- heroine becomes a Buddhist nun) most of which is lost. On the other hand, nIlakEci, a minor epic, which has survived is a Jain work (the protagonist- heroine becomes a Jain nun). Regards S. Palaniappan From Vaidix at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 07:43:00 1997 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 02:43:00 -0500 Subject: rescuing things Message-ID: <161227034321.23782.1800110972792919584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste, I wrote.. >>Those who can not explain this to me would symbolically lose ownership of >>Vedic materials. Dominique.Thillaud wrote.. > Hence, I can't agree with you. If you are a Veda's lover, please, >don't act as vRtra ! Traditionally, such statements are an accepted practice in the study of Indology. In the past (Vedic period), the scholars used to make pronouncements such as "Your head will fall" to each other. Or sometimes someone may intervene a yajJa and put up a question to the performers, and restrict them from continuing further until the issue is resolved. The idea implied here is that, accuracy of concepts is of utmost importance. People are willing to lose their heads (even I am!) in the search for the truth. My statement is serious, but it was just meant to be a example of that practice. The idea behind such statements is not an expression of pride or to deprive others of any resources. It is to stop others from a wrong procedure in yajJa, or simply forcing the audience to turn their attention to the person making the interjection. Such harsh pronouncements are a necessity to avoid the trap of mediocrity. The pronouncements do not really take effect except in case of serious non-compliance. Inspite of the fact that such stringent steps were taken to maintain accuracy and authenticity, today Vedas remained the most undecipherable texts and are being ridiculed or branded as a "self serving creation of priestly cadres" by a section of modern scholars, because the key to understanding them was lost many thousands of years ago. Bijoy Misra wrote... >On rescuing vedas, Jayadeva wrote: >PraLayaprayodhijaLe dhR^tavanasi vedam >vihitavahitracharitamakhedam >keshavadhR^ta mInas'arIra.. Please translate this for me. I do not understand Sanskrit. My area of work is interpretation of Veda for prANAyAmA and neuro-fuzzy theories. I am finding the lack of Sanskrit knowledge and classical Indian music (karnAtic etc) as a major handicap. >I humbly admit that these are beyond me, could be for others (loan or no >loan). Are there rewards for the efforts? Why not post your "answers" >here? I can provide a partial answer for the moment. In the post Vedic era the first major breakthrough in interpreting the scriptures was made by bhagvAn buddha. The fact that his conclusion was to reject the Vedas was of secondary importance for me. Adi zaGkarA followed his track and brought out advaitA as the essence of upaniSats, and reestablished the supremacy of Vedas. However he missed out a few items by which the theory of advaitA can be applied to further analyze the basic Vedic symbols such as indra, bRhaspati etc. His initiative was not followed up and we lost 2000 years. In fact the perversion had gone to such a level that people even started hating advaitA. Even famous personalities expressed an opinion whether the subject is of any use. Well, theoretically it can not be of any use, because any "use" is within the cause-effect chain. Efforts are currently underway to take up the next step, that is, to apply advaitA to explain the basic vedic symbols. I am not sure I can crack all the symbols. Items like azvins or tvaSTR would take considerable time, may be even decades. I am really looking for people who have skills like prANAyAmA (a necessity) and who also know sanskrit, metres, music etc. The reward is.. your name will be recorded forever on the subject! I will announce any new findings to this LISTSERV. No need to check my site frequently. I owe you the answers. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:17:17 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 09:17:17 -0600 Subject: Kill before being killed Message-ID: <161227034327.23782.4538782197642962675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am reproducing what I wrote to Indology about one year ago. Hope it gives enough bibliographical info. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 09:20:00 CST From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (Ganesan) Subject: Neelakesi Re: Neelakesi. ************** Neelakesi is a rare, ancient Jaina epic available in Tamil. It refutes KuntalakEci, a buddhist work. Unfortunately, Kuntalakeci is lost forever. Only very few poems from Kuntalakeci exist, thanks to some old commentaries on tamil classical literature. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov ********************************************************************* A. Chakravarti Neelakesi, 2nd edition, Jaipur: Prakrit Bharati Academi, 1994. 320 p. ********************************************************************* - Author: - Nilakeci. - Title: Neelakesi, the original text and the commentary of Samaya- Divakara-Vamana-Muni / Edited and published, by A. Chakravarti. - Published: - Kumbakonam, 1936. - Description: - x, <1>, 339, iii, 484 p. 22 cm. - Subjects (use s=): - Jaina poetry - Notes: - Cover title. In Tamil, introductory matter in English. Bibliography: p. <1>-iii (4th group). - Summary: - Jaina extended narrative poem refuting the Buddhist work "Kuntalakeci". - Other contributors: - Samayadivakara-Vamana Muni. Chakravarti, A. ed. ********************************************************************* - Author: - Cunantatevi, Cu., 1942- Camanak kappiyankal : Nilakeci, Civaka Cintamani, Yacotara kaviyam / Cu. Cunantatevi. - Published: - Cennai : Vijayalatcumi Patippakam : Virpanai urimai, Payoniyar Puk Carvicas, 1988. Epic literature, Tamil--History and criticism. Jaina literature, Tamil--History and criticism. Study of selected Jaina Tamil epics. ********************************************************************* Nilakeci / Camayativakaravamana Munivar uraiyutan. - Published: - Tancavur : Tamilp Palkalaik Kalakam, 1984. - Description: - 1 v. (various pagings) ; 22 cm. Jaina poetry, Tamil - Summary: - Jaina extended narrative poem refuting the Buddhist work "Kuntalakeci". - Notes: In Tamil; introd. in English. Edited by A. Chakravarti. Reprint. Originally published: Kumbakonam : A. Chakravarti, 1936. Chakravarti, A. (Appasami), 1880-1960. ********************************************************************* - Title: - Nilakeci. - Edition: - <1st ed.>. - Published: - 1964. - Description: - 75, 760 p. 22 cm. - Subjects (use s=): - Jainism--Relations - Notes: In Tamil. - Other contributors: Somasundaram, P. V. 1909- ed. ********************************************************************* From silk at WMICH.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:04:25 1997 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 11:04:25 -0500 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034331.23782.15034256059230744654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am entirely unable to contribute to this (interesting!) discussion of tAra- etc. However, one small point made by our friend Dominique requires correction. He wrote, concerning delocution: > And the English and the American know verbs as 'to hail', 'to >encore', 'to yes'. > As a native speaker (whether educated or not is another question) of American English, I am entirely unaware of any verbs such as 'to encore', or 'to yes'. As to "to hail", of course it is a well-known verb, but whether it comes from "hail!" I wonder about. One could answer the question with a look at the OED, but my copy is at home. Anyway, the concept is interesting, even if the English examples are not entirely correct. Cheers, jonathan Jonathan Silk Department of Comparative Religion Western Michigan University Kalamazoo MI 49008-5013 USA tel. 616-387-4399 fax 616-387-4914 silk at wmich.edu From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Dec 10 17:15:25 1997 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 13:15:25 -0400 Subject: delocutives [was Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka)] Message-ID: <161227034333.23782.15298989460692679688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Jonathan Silk's post: >I am entirely unable to contribute to this (interesting!) discussion of >tAra- etc. However, one small point made by our friend Dominique requires >correction. He wrote, concerning delocution: > >> And the English and the American know verbs as 'to hail', 'to >>encore', 'to yes'. >> >As a native speaker (whether educated or not is another question) of >American English, I am entirely unaware of any verbs such as 'to encore', >or 'to yes'. As to "to hail", of course it is a well-known verb, but >whether it comes from "hail!" I wonder about. One could answer the question >with a look at the OED, but my copy is at home. Anyway, the concept is >interesting, even if the English examples are not entirely correct. > >Cheers, jonathan > > >Like Jonathan, I greatly sympathize with Dominique's valiant efforts to >use English in his posts [remember that he is undergoing this ordeal for >the sake of those members of the list who can't read French]. I haven't >checked my OED, which happens to be just a few feet away, but I'm sure >that "to hail" is a delocutive verb [derived, that is, from the utterance >"hail!"]. This interesting morophological feature isn't very productive >in English, but I can think of other examples. The verb 'to yes' cited by >Dominique [by the way, he is merely following Benveniste here] isn't >idiomatic, as Jonathan notes, but it *is* presupposed by the familiar term >'yes-man' [i.e., 'one who goes about saying "yes"']. In the sentence "He >helloed me over and over again, until I hung up the phone", the verb 'to >hello' seems to me to be more or less acceptable. Consider other examples: in French one can 'tutoyer' and 'vouvoyer' ['to address as *tu* or *vous*'], and in German one can 'duzen' ['address as *du*']. Etc.[lots more examples can be found in Benveniste]. Clearly, delocutive verbs are formed from discourse conventions, not from the language's regular morphological system. This is a fairly productive feature of Sanskrit, as it turns out, though I don't recall that Benveniste cites any Skt examples. I have argued in JAOS 117.1 that the term ahaMkAra is a delocutive term meaning 'the utterance, or cry, *aham*' [van Buitenen had essentially made the same observation a long time ago]. Vedic ritual utterances like 'oMkAra, vaSaTkAra, svAhAkAra', etc., are not derived in the same way as 'kumbhakAra' ['potter'] is. They are derived from discourse conventions: they are therefore delocutives. Consider also non-Vedic terms like 'asmitA' and 'asmimAna', both of which mean something like 'egotism, self-conceit', but which seem clearly to refer to the activity of saying "I am" a bit too much.... Renou was aware of the term 'de'locutif' and cited a few more examples soemwhere, I think, in EVP. Debrunner also. Likewise Szemere'nyi. I don't have access to the too-expensive volumes of Wackernagel-Debrunner, but I'd be surprised if there is no discussion there. Thank you, Dominique, for raising interesting issues, George Thompson From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 10 15:40:49 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 15:40:49 +0000 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034329.23782.13889990522895397232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:42 PM 12/10/97 +0100, Dominique.thillaud writes: > About *tAra. > > To find how the weak form of tArA could be *tAra, we must simply >part of one fact: tAra, coming from tRR- 'to cross over', is a thematic >agent noun 'saviour'. Early, the gender of such nouns was just 'animate' >without distinction between masculine and feminine. And, actually, MMW >begins tAra by 'mfn.'. It's probable that the first name of the Goddess was >tAra; later with the extension of H2 feminine forms, analogy cause a >refection (not allways, we have examples of Greek Goddesses names in -os) >and the common form becomes tArA, except in some fixed outdated syntagms (a >very common phenomenon in every languages). > > About *tAra-kAma-ya > > We have at least an other example of an epic named as the quest of >the love of a woman: the Irish 'Wooing of Etain'. > > Better ? >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > If tAra can represent tArA, I have one interpretation tArakAmah = one who desires tArA . It is just like `svargakAmah', `bhUtikAmah' etc. tArakAmayOh will be possessive dual form i.e., the two who desire tArA saGgrAmah tArakAmayOh = war of the two who desire tArA If the visarga at the end is lost and somebody interpreted `O' at the end as due to transformation of visarga, you will get saGgramah tArakAmayah. regards, sarma. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Dec 10 14:42:30 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 15:42:30 +0100 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034325.23782.6035111949040925328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:27 +0100 9/12/97, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > And a very nice compound it makes: its first element is a vocative, >and the second - an instrumental with a wrong ending...But if we agree >not to follow blindly any rules, it is impossible to raise any objection. >So, it's OK, OK... .... > In purANic passages, quoted by D.V.Sarma, tArA (used separately) and >tArakA (in *tArakAmaya) are understood, of course, as synonymous (and that is >why they are viewed at as two forms of one name in the dictionaries), but >historically the bards evidently applied to the story of tArA the formula >borrowed from different myth (of asura tAraka and his war against the gods). >The mistake was caused probably by the fact that the word Amaya in the sense >of , being rather rare, had not been understood any more >by the PurANic bards or writers. I know my hypothesis is weak and your irony is welcomed. But your's one has too some weak points. 1) your 'of course' is uniquely based on the fact YOU (after other ones) read tArakA in tArakAmaya. That's not a proof this reading is right. Never found *tArakA isolated give undoubtly some suspicion. 2) you don't explain the 'why not *tArikA ?'. Even if we consider a dubious *tAra giving the name of the Goddess, the feminine, tArA or *tArI suppose a 'i' and/or a 'H2' who can't disappear so easily. Except in archaic vocatives (ambA, ambikA, amba!) but, if that's the case, it woul'd be very strange to add -kA after a vocative ! 3) if Amaya give an acceptable meaning for the asura, that's not the case for the Goddess. Undoubtly, a derivation from kAma 'desire' would be better. About delocution. Benveniste introduce the term for the verbs who come not from a noun or an other verb, but from an enonciation. He gives examples in Latin: 'salvere', different from 'salvare', is 'salve! dicere'; 'quiritare', 'autumare', 'necare' are from 'Quirites!', 'autem', 'nec'. In Greek formula 'khairein tini legein', 'khairein' has not the usual meaning, it comes from 'khaire!'. In French, the verb 'remercier' (ancient Fr. 'mercier') is 'dire merci'. And the English and the American know verbs as 'to hail', 'to encore', 'to yes'. The nature of this derivation explain the possible use of imperatives and vocatives as bases. In Sanskrit, I've just thought to 'bhovAdin' but I suppose there are other examples of vocatives as first part of a compound. But, today, I reject this interpretation of tArakAmayayuddha. About *kAmaya. That's truly a bit strange but kAmayA itself is strange. It appears as a feminine instrumental, but kAma is a masculine and (s.v. kAma), MMW give kAmA with 'only instr. kAmayA' !!! Again a snake biting his tail! Why not a Vedic compound *kAma-yA ? Compare: RNa 'obligation', RNa-yA 'demanding fulfilment of obligations' eva 'quick, course, earth', eva-yA, said of viSNu tura 'quick', tura-yA 'going quickly' deva-yA 'going to the Gods' The connotation 'going to obtain' is not excluded. Moreover, MacDonell (A Vedic grammar for students, p.78, n.16) precise that the neutral form of such words is shortened to 'a'. Hence, a *kAmaya 'quest of love' is possible and kAmayA could be truly an instrumental, but an old one from kAma-yA or kAma-ya: kAmayA me brUhi 'say me, searching my love'. About *tAra. To find how the weak form of tArA could be *tAra, we must simply part of one fact: tAra, coming from tRR- 'to cross over', is a thematic agent noun 'saviour'. Early, the gender of such nouns was just 'animate' without distinction between masculine and feminine. And, actually, MMW begins tAra by 'mfn.'. It's probable that the first name of the Goddess was tAra; later with the extension of H2 feminine forms, analogy cause a refection (not allways, we have examples of Greek Goddesses names in -os) and the common form becomes tArA, except in some fixed outdated syntagms (a very common phenomenon in every languages). About *tAra-kAma-ya We have at least an other example of an epic named as the quest of the love of a woman: the Irish 'Wooing of Etain'. Better ? Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Wed Dec 10 21:47:38 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 22:47:38 +0100 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) Message-ID: <161227034335.23782.233465251910820381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As a native speaker (whether educated or not is another question) of >American English, I am entirely unaware of any verbs such as 'to encore', >or 'to yes'. As to "to hail", of course it is a well-known verb, but >whether it comes from "hail!" I wonder about. One could answer the question >with a look at the OED, but my copy is at home. Anyway, the concept is >interesting, even if the English examples are not entirely correct. Ok, how about "don't honey me"? From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Dec 11 02:16:05 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 03:16:05 +0100 Subject: delocutives [was Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034339.23782.10238546911786204713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:15 +0100 10/12/97, George Thompson wrote: >In response to Jonathan Silk's post: >>I am entirely unaware of any verbs such as 'to encore', or 'to yes'. In the case of 'to yes', Benveniste give a reference at: Mencken, The American language, p.195. >Consider other examples: in French one can 'tutoyer' and 'vouvoyer' ['to >address as *tu* or *vous*'] Despite Benveniste advice, I don't believe this two verbs beeing delocutives. 'tutoyer', with the reduplication 'tu' + 'toi' seems a formation parallel to the expression 'etre a tu et a toi avec quelqu'un'. It covers the two cases 'sujet' and 'regime' of the ancient French, two forms unable to be in the same elocution. Hence, it is more 'demorphological' (!?!) than delocutive. 'vouvoyer' or 'voussoyer' are formed by analogy. Sorry for this small non-Indological parenthesis. Dominique PS: George, I'm yet trained to write free-mindly my poor English, that's no more an ordeal ;-) Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Dec 11 11:37:24 1997 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 07:37:24 -0400 Subject: delocutives [was Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka)] Message-ID: <161227034341.23782.5955279686202552961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominique et al, Perhaps I misunderstand Benveniste, but it seems to me that even in your interpretation of the terms 'totoyer' and 'vouvoyer' both may still be understood as delocutives. The expression 'etre a tu et a toi avec quelqu'un' seems to me to refer to a discourse convention, so that the verb formation can be said to derive from such a convention, rather than from the normal morphological system of French. I think that these constructions are very much like the Skt ones mentioned: ahaMkAra, asmitA, etc. But perhaps I am using the term 'delocutive' too loosely. Best wishes, George >At 18:15 +0100 10/12/97, George Thompson wrote: >>In response to Jonathan Silk's post: >>>I am entirely unaware of any verbs such as 'to encore', or 'to yes'. > > In the case of 'to yes', Benveniste give a reference at: Mencken, >The American language, p.195. > >>Consider other examples: in French one can 'tutoyer' and 'vouvoyer' ['to >>address as *tu* or *vous*'] > > Despite Benveniste advice, I don't believe this two verbs beeing >delocutives. 'tutoyer', with the reduplication 'tu' + 'toi' seems a >formation parallel to the expression 'etre a tu et a toi avec quelqu'un'. >It covers the two cases 'sujet' and 'regime' of the ancient French, two >forms unable to be in the same elocution. Hence, it is more >'demorphological' (!?!) than delocutive. 'vouvoyer' or 'voussoyer' are >formed by analogy. > > Sorry for this small non-Indological parenthesis. >Dominique > >PS: George, I'm yet trained to write free-mindly my poor English, that's no >more an ordeal ;-) > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From ebashir at UMICH.EDU Thu Dec 11 12:55:36 1997 From: ebashir at UMICH.EDU (E. Bashir) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 07:55:36 -0500 Subject: Address sought Message-ID: <161227034343.23782.9202649510765840474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the address (e-mail preferable) for Professor Maheswari at IIT, Delhi? Thanks, E. Bashir Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 3070 Frieze Bldg. The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Department Office Phone: (313) 764-8286 (messages only) Personal Office Phone: Fax: (313) 647-0157 Note: Area code changes to 734 effective 12/13/97 From clare at COOMBS.ANU.EDU.AU Wed Dec 10 22:45:44 1997 From: clare at COOMBS.ANU.EDU.AU (Clare Martin) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 09:45:44 +1100 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034337.23782.16063973959365019732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >As a native speaker (whether educated or not is another question) of > >American English, I am entirely unaware of any verbs such as 'to encore', > > Ok, how about "don't honey me"? > I'm not a student of indian languages either but as a native speaker of english and as a woman I feel I could make some comments about being "honeyed". The situation usually arises when some man addresses a woman with those forms of pseudo endearment such as "Honey" or "Baby" which tend to be belittling and are also americanisms. If the reply to this is "Don't honey me", the "honey" is actually in quotes, referring to the previous comment. It's not being used as a verb. Whether 'honey', 'encore' or 'yes' can be converted to verbs in the US I can't say, but it certainly sounds strange in Australia. Cheers, Clare Martin ---------------------------------------------------------- Clare Martin clare at coombs.anu.edu.au PO Box 13 Tel: (02) 6247 2397 Ainslie +61 2 6247 2397 ACT 2602 Fax: (02) 6248 8905 Australia ---------------------------------------------------------- From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Dec 11 14:56:17 1997 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 09:56:17 -0500 Subject: VedavicAraH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034345.23782.8420879289441745749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear folks, Currently I am reading a work titled VedavicAraH. This was published from Vai, Maharashtra, in a magazine named Dharma, in 1912, and was translated into Marathi by Kashinath Vaman Lele. This was then circulated in a book form. The name of the author is given in the colophon as Dvivedi DraviDa ShAma Shastri. The colophon provides no other information about this. I have written to the authorities of the Prajna Pathashala in Vai for assistance, but there is no response. I wonder if anyone has come across any information about this author, who probably dates to 1900s. The colophon offers salutations to Tryambakeshvara, which suggests that he lived in the area of Nasik in Maharashtra. Thanks. Madhav Deshpande From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Dec 11 17:03:26 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 11:03:26 -0600 Subject: Q. A story reference Message-ID: <161227034350.23782.5306626489591651011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q. A story reference *********************** In a medieval Tamil text, some 16 stories are told of men doing different things for the sake of 'kaamam'. Each story is briefly narrated in a few lines. Is there a Sanskrit or any other Indian language text or oral/folk version giving the following story. *********** A guru would not give his ultimate secret teaching to a disciple for a long time. Whenever the student attempts, the guru refuses citing the student's immaturity as the reason. The guru sends off the eager student on a time-consuming, national yatra and to Himalayan foothills. For years, the disciple did not come back. The guru is nearing death. A street theater performer girl is given the ultimate teaching by the Guru while the guru's disciple was away. Upon return, the student learns about his guru's demise and drinks the spitting of the street dancer in order to learn the ultimate mantra which she only knows. ************ Thanks for any help. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov ----- End Included Message ----- From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 11 16:35:45 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 11:35:45 -0500 Subject: Delocutives (Was: Grahas epithets) Message-ID: <161227034346.23782.15477695538868146150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Balutch wrote: <> On reflection, this seems to me a productive formation in English. E.g.: "Get out of the way, sonny-boy." "Don't you sonny-boy me, grandpa." Any epithet the addressee finds offensive can be treated as a verb in the response. Allen Thrasher From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 11 18:58:06 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 13:58:06 -0500 Subject: delocutives (Was: Graha epithets) Message-ID: <161227034359.23782.3837171703254424763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Clare Martin wrote: <> I think the "Don't you honey me" formation is used when the word is offensive whether or not it is offensive in itself as opposed to in the immediate context. "Honey" and "baby" are standard endearments between spouses and lovers in the U.S. . The refusal to be "honeyed" is as likely to come when someone is trying to placate his spouse or sweetheart for some perceived offense and she refuses to be won over by sweet talk as when someone uses it inappropriately as an undesired sexual comeon or just an excessive familiarity. In addition, these terms are used by either sex towards the other, not just by men to women. In parts of the U.S. they are used towards co-workers or relatives other than spouses or just anyone of the opposite sex one is talking to amiably. They used not to be confined to the opposite sex. In the minutely researched Patrick O'Brien novels of the British Navy in the Napoleonic period, the heroes Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin call each other "honey" and similar epithets routinely (they are both straight). In some offices the women can be divided into those that are offended if they are not honeyed and those that are offended if they are. Australian men are reputed or stereotyped to be ungallant. Perhaps they only honey when they have ulterior power motives. Allen Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 11 22:55:32 1997 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 17:55:32 -0500 Subject: rescuing things In-Reply-To: <88750e30.348e4806@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227034366.23782.13267580559103763797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Vaidix wrote: > > >PraLayaprayodhijaLe dhR^tavanasi vedam > >vihitavahitracharitamakhedam > >keshavadhR^ta mInas'arIra.. > > Please translate this for me. I do not understand Sanskrit. My area of work > is interpretation of Veda for prANAyAmA and neuro-fuzzy theories. Since one of our goals is to promote Sanskrit, you should pick up a dictionary and figure out. This is not heard. This is from Geetagovinda. You might enjoy it. > > I can provide a partial answer for the moment. In the post Vedic era the > first major breakthrough in interpreting the scriptures was made by bhagvAn > buddha. The fact that his conclusion was to reject the Vedas was of secondary > importance for me. Adi zaGkarA followed his track and brought out advaitA as > the essence of upaniSats, and reestablished the supremacy of Vedas. > > However he missed out a few items by which the theory of advaitA can be > applied to further analyze the basic Vedic symbols such as indra, bRhaspati > etc. His initiative was not followed up and we lost 2000 years. In fact the > perversion had gone to such a level that people even started hating advaitA. > Even famous personalities expressed an opinion whether the subject is of any > use. Well, theoretically it can not be of any use, because any "use" is > within the cause-effect chain. > > Efforts are currently underway to take up the next step, that is, to apply > advaitA to explain the basic vedic symbols. I am not sure I can crack all the > symbols. Items like azvins or tvaSTR would take considerable time, may be > even decades. I am really looking for people who have skills like prANAyAmA > (a necessity) and who also know sanskrit, metres, music etc. The reward is.. > your name will be recorded forever on the subject! I will announce any new > findings to this LISTSERV. No need to check my site frequently. I owe you > the answers. Interesting. Let's know as you find. - BM From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Dec 11 17:45:29 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 18:45:29 +0100 Subject: Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19971210204955.1b1fa3bc@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227034352.23782.14209063264256129833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:40 +0100 10/12/97, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >If tAra can represent tArA, I have one interpretation > >tArakAmah = one who desires tArA . It is just like `svargakAmah', `bhUtikAmah' >etc. > >tArakAmayOh will be possessive dual form i.e., the two who desire tArA > >saGgrAmah tArakAmayOh = war of the two who desire tArA > >If the visarga at the end is lost and somebody interpreted `O' at the end >as due to transformation of visarga, you will get saGgramah tArakAmayah. Very subtle, indeed. I would like such a victory of the sense! I can add that, in devanAgarI text, a 'tArakAmayoryuddhaH' can very easily loose the 'r', a very small mark. The last problem is the responsability of a scribe, changing a new 'tArakAmayo yuddhaH' (read with unsticked sandhi: 'tArakAmayas yuddhas') in a compound 'tArakAmaya-yuddhaH'. (Here, we can't suppose the lost of the 'o' mark: it would give 'tArakAmayA yuddhaH'). In westerner Middle-Age, monk-scribes took easily such liberty. Extension of compounds in the Sanskrit's story can play a role ? Do have the specialists of manuscripts an advice on this possibility ? But, I've kept the better for the end. In MBh VIII,6,46: 0080060461/.tava.putrair.vRtah.karNah.zuzubhe.tatra.bhaarata./ 0080060463/.deviar.iva.yathaa.skandah.samgraame.taarakaa.maye.// the only 'taarakaamaya' passage in MBh where it's not question of the Indra's fight against the Asura, the Poona edition give in the manuscript G3 (Tanjore, Sarasvathi Mahal Library, No. 11828. Palm leaf. Undated) the variant taarakaamayoh. You're an happy man ;^) Namaste, Dominique PS: by a fortuit chance, you can remark with interest at the begin of the third pada, one of the terrific mistakes of Pr. Tokunaga, impossible to correct without referring to the printed text ! But, to be impartial, the cut .taarakaa.maye. of the sensei is perhaps today erroneous ! Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Thu Dec 11 18:36:51 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 19:36:51 +0100 Subject: Delocutives (Was: Grahas epithets) Message-ID: <161227034355.23782.5857999145640385460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Incidentally an apparently common set of delocutive verbs that wasn't mentioned is the series onomatop.+kR where onomat. is used as gati: khaaT+karooti, puut+karooti,... (khaaT represents the sound of spitting, I have not idea what puut is) Incidentally (this is a question -- if you can't stand "inane" questions don't read this) can the same construction apply to address sounds ?bhooH-karooti, ?dhik-karooti or even vocatives ?amba-karooti and _if_ yes, will that be with a _transitive_ meaning or only in an intransitive meaning? (the kR compounds with onomatop. are intransitive of course). In other words can one say things like: teena saa dhik-krtaa? for he told her shame or teena saa amba-krtaa? for he called her mother? etc. Are such constructions possible? From thillaud at UNICE.FR Thu Dec 11 18:46:25 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 19:46:25 +0100 Subject: delocutives [was Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034360.23782.14596132220975313271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:37 +0100 11/12/97, George Thompson wrote: >Perhaps I misunderstand Benveniste, but it seems to me that even in your >interpretation of the terms 'tutoyer' and 'vouvoyer' both may still be >understood as delocutives. The expression 'etre a tu et a toi avec >quelqu'un' seems to me to refer to a discourse convention, so that the verb >formation can be said to derive from such a convention, rather than from >the normal morphological system of French. I think that these constructions >are very much like the Skt ones mentioned: ahaMkAra, asmitA, etc. But >perhaps I am using the term 'delocutive' too loosely. Je le crois. Tu ecris bien 'to refer to a discourse CONVENTION'. Pour reprendre la terminologie de Saussure (d'ou mon usage occasionnel du francais), il s'agit du domaine de la 'langue', alors que les delocutifs referent a la 'parole'. Mais, si la distinction me semble ici facile (grace au redoublement tu-toi-er), il est vrai que ahaMkAra et asmitA sont plus difficiles. Je pencherais pour des destylistiques (!?!) sur la seule raison que ni ahaM, ni asmi ne forment phrase isolee (j'exclus ici la reponse a une question) a eux tout seuls et que c'est leur frequence sur l'axe paradigmatique qui est signalee (comme pour tutoyer). En revanche, je crois bien que le bhovAdin que j'avais suggere est un authentique delocutif, dans la mesure ou bhoH est un vocatif. Un peu enculage de mouches, peut-etre ;^) Dominique PS: Does someone have a good idea to name verbs (or nouns) who are derived from a grammatical feature (here, French and English are the same language) ? Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 11 16:02:11 1997 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 21:32:11 +0530 Subject: Anagrams and Phonetic Wordplay Message-ID: <161227034348.23782.13543918536169350614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received an interesting response from a young boy, Gaurav who obviously knows more than I do on this subject .anagram: The messge you forwarded was interesting. I remember hearing or reading some Hindu myth where an anagram is used cleverly by someone. It might have also been in some philosophy of Hinduism- I can't quite remember. However, I did read a short book about Hanumanji where he uses a play on words. At the time of the battle in the Ramayana, after the death of Kumbhakarna, Ravana performs a Chandi Yagya to Durga Devi in order to gain a boon. Hanuman dressed up as a Brahman stident and served the learned Brahmans that were to chant the mantras for Ravana. Pleased with Hanuman, the Brahmans granted him a boon. Hanuman asked for one change in one of the mantras, which read: "Jai twam Devi Chamunde, Jai bhoootardiharini Jai sarvagate devi Kalaratri namostute!" According to the book, Hanuman asked to replace the syllable "ha" with "ka", changing the meaning of the second line from "Hail the remover of all evil spirits" to "Hail the creator of all evil spirits." Thus the goddess turned hostile towards Ravan and helped to bring about his defeat. I found that interesting and similar to what the forwarded message was about. Would that play on words be called an "anagram"? Gaurav Varuag at aol.com ---------- > From: George Thompson > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Anagrams and Phonetic Wordplay > Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 07:40 > > >I seem to vaguely remember a study on wordplay and anagrams--possibily > >even phonetic ones--in Vedic lit. Does anyone know of such an entity? > > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >John Robert Gardner Obermann Center > >School of Religion for Advanced Studies > >University of Iowa University of Iowa > >319-335-2164 319-335-4034 > >http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > John, > > There is actually quite a lot on wordplay and anagrams. For the RV, > discussion of these phenomena has been ongoing for a long time. Saussure a > long time ago noticed such things in his notebooks published posthumously > by Starobinski. You will find there Saussure's interesting analysis of the > vibhakti-play on the name of Agni in RV 1.1, as well as the play on the > names *agni* and *aGgiras*. > > Geldner was certainly aware of these phenomena. There are references to > them scattered throughout his translation and commentary. Likewise, > references to such things can be found quite often in Renou's EVP. See also > Thieme on 'Sprachmalerei' and Elizarenkova's 1995 book as well. I recall an > article by Saverio Sani as well, and no doubt Gonda has written about such > things somewhere. Why, I think that I also have mentioned this sort of > thing somewhere, although for the life of me I can't remember where. I'm > sure that there are other references that have slipped my mind, or that I > just have not run across. Perhaps others can supply more references. > > Indo-Europeanists like Toporov and Watkins have also called attention to > anagrams, etc., in the RV. And Martin Schwartz has discovered elaborate > wordplay in the Gathas of Zarathustra, which would confirm that such > practices were surely a prominent feature of proto-Indo-Iranian poetics, > and apparently an IE phenomenon as well. > > I'm sorry not to give detailed bibliographic references right now [it is > the end of the present semester, of course]. I can track these down for you > if needed. I send this quick note just to assure you that you are right to > pursue an interest in such things. They are an important feature of Vedic > poetics > > Best wishes, > > George Thompson From thompson at JLC.NET Fri Dec 12 01:43:05 1997 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 21:43:05 -0400 Subject: delocutives [was Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka)] Message-ID: <161227034369.23782.337502437464220015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique wrote: > > Je le crois. Tu ecris bien 'to refer to a discourse CONVENTION'. >Pour reprendre la terminologie de Saussure (d'ou mon usage occasionnel du >francais), il s'agit du domaine de la 'langue', alors que les delocutifs >referent a la 'parole'. Yes, Dominique, I accept Saussure's distinction and find it useful. It is the same distinction made by Benveniste, when he asserts that the delocutive verb is to be derived from discourse, rather than from grammar. > Mais, si la distinction me semble ici facile (grace au redoublement >tu-toi-er), il est vrai que ahaMkAra et asmitA sont plus difficiles. Je >pencherais pour des destylistiques (!?!) sur la seule raison que ni ahaM, >ni asmi ne forment phrase isolee (j'exclus ici la reponse a une question) a >eux tout seuls et que c'est leur frequence sur l'axe paradigmatique qui est >signalee (comme pour tutoyer). The distinction is 'facile' when we have direct citation of a delocutive, as in Allen Thrasher's nice example "to sonny-boy." It is more complicated when one encounters a secondary formation like my example "yes-man", which is built on a presupposed verb "to yes." I think that forms like the Skt, *ahaMkAra* and *asmitA* are secondary formations built upon direct delocutives. In fact, both *aham* and *asmi* appear to me to be primary forms of the delocutive in Vedic, that is, they both appear in Vedic discourse as ritualized, or as you suggest, 'stylized', discourse. I find direct examples of these discourse phenomena in the Vedic brahmodya, as well as in the RV Atmastutis. In these contexts both *aham* and *asmi* function in "la reponse a une question" and in precise ritual contexts. It is in the context of such ritualized utterances that forms like *ahaMkAra* and *asmitA* can be generated. > En revanche, je crois bien que le bhovAdin que j'avais suggere est >un authentique delocutif, dans la mesure ou bhoH est un vocatif. Agreed. > > Un peu enculage de mouches, peut-etre ;^) >Dominique > >PS: Does someone have a good idea to name verbs (or nouns) who are derived >from a grammatical feature (here, French and English are the same language) >? I'm not sure what you are asking for here. Deverbatives? Denominatives? > >Best wishes,and thanks again for your insightful comments. George Thompson From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 11 21:56:01 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 21:56:01 +0000 Subject: Delocutives (Was: Grahas epithets) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034364.23782.3907232796597332866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Jacob Balutch wrote: > > "Get out of the way, sonny-boy." > > "Don't you sonny-boy me, grandpa." "Don't you 'don't you sonny-boy me, granpa' sonny-boy!" Infinite recursion. All the best, Dominik From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Dec 11 21:31:23 1997 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 22:31:23 +0100 Subject: Delocutives (Was: Grahas epithets) Message-ID: <161227034363.23782.11789222140481606386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: >Incidentally (this is a question -- if you can't stand "inane" >questions don't read this) can the same construction apply to >address sounds ?bhooH-karooti, ?dhik-karooti or even vocatives >?amba-karooti I recall a line from the Gurugiitaa: guru.m tva.mk.rtya hu.mk.rtya... Is this the sort of thing you mean? Martin Gansten From sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 11 17:40:13 1997 From: sristi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Anil Gupta) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 23:10:13 +0530 Subject: Q. A story reference Message-ID: <161227034357.23782.15708727216983699188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I Hope soem colleagues recall all the five stories famous in the context of concern of Chola kings for non human sentient beings, such as for nilotpal, cow, peacock etc., I am looking for stories from Hindu, Budhdhist, muslim's or other cultural and religious traditions which convey metaphorically how we may look at our responsibility towards non human sentient beings, insects, birds, animals etc., pl do narrate the stories briefly along with reference thanks anil I will also need permission to use such stories for cover page illustration for Honey bee magazine From Vaidix at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 07:41:14 1997 From: Vaidix at AOL.COM (Vaidix) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 02:41:14 -0500 Subject: Address Request Message-ID: <161227034371.23782.2917290656348617913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste I am interested in the whereabouts of sri konDamudi hanumachAstri living somewhere in Andhra Pradesh. He wrote a series of articles titled "atharva vedamlo akSaya nidhulu" in the weekly Andhra Prabha during 1981-82. sri. sAstri is an authority in interpretation of Veda. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Fri Dec 12 09:35:21 1997 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 10:35:21 +0100 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034373.23782.15011108833129374478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indology-listers, While the ongoing discussion about delocutives is fascinating in itself it strikes me that there is something wrong in the sense that these delocutives are not speech acts in the same manner as the other speech acts defined by Austin, i.e. the illocutionary and perlocutionary acts. In these acts (Austin's) there is a clear shift of level from the locutionary (the merely referential) to the illocutionary and the perlocutionary act. The illocutionary and perlocutionary acts achieve something that the mere locution does not. For instance, when the judge sentences someone to imprisonment this is something else that what the journalist does when he quotes the sentence in the next day's paper. This is because for Austin the emphasis is on the act (what is achieved in pragmatic interaction through language) rather than on the locution. In the delocutives that have been mentioned so far (I may have missed some of the mails) there is no real shift from locution to delocution, for instance from "to say 'honey'" to "to honey" or from "dire 'tu'" to "tutoyer". The delocutive expression merely refers to the locution (as also Dominik Wujastyk's example of an infinite recursion indicates). And in this sense the delocutives do not form a delimited speech act of its own. - Or am I wrong? Best regards Mikael Aktor, Dept of the Study of Religion, University of Aarhus, Denmark aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Dec 12 18:58:23 1997 From: pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (P. Cooper) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 10:58:23 -0800 Subject: summer sanskrit Message-ID: <161227034381.23782.6532970394680643036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I'm a graduate student in South Asian studies currently studying Sanskrit, and I'm looking for an institution that offers an intensive 2nd year Sanskrit course over the summer. I've checked many of the North American universities that you might think would offer such a course, but I've had no luck so far. Any ideas on where else to look? I'm willing to go to Europe if necessary (I've been warned off of going to India given the difference in teaching methods). Any response would be much appreciated. Thanks. Paul Cooper From silk at WMICH.EDU Fri Dec 12 16:23:01 1997 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 11:23:01 -0500 Subject: delocutives [was Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034375.23782.17525751709638654049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps it is my ignorance of linguistics which leads me to say this, but I still do not think that there exist verbs "to honey" or "sonny-boy". (I believe Clare Martin is correct that these words should be placed in quotation marks.) For me, perhaps, the test is whether -ing "gerunds" are possible. I do not think one can say "*honeying" as a verb (of course, as an adj. it is common), or "*sonny-boying". Likewise *yesing is an impossibility. On the other hand, what about "okay"? I suppose that one could argue that this is actually a denominitive, but an argument that it is delocutive seems plausible to me -- and of course, "okaying" and other verbal forms are in common use. Back to "to hail" for a moment; if I have understood the OED correctly, while it does seem that the verbal form derives from the vocative usage, in English in any case it seems to be borrowed -- as a verb -- from Old Norse; see OED s.v. hailse. Perhaps Lars or someone with knowledge of Scandanavian linguistics can shed some light on this. Jonathan Silk Department of Comparative Religion Western Michigan University Kalamazoo MI 49008-5013 USA tel. 616-387-4399 fax 616-387-4914 silk at wmich.edu From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri Dec 12 19:53:37 1997 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 13:53:37 -0600 Subject: Hanuman and Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227034384.23782.16226110157213107968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded for Andrew Cohen: > Traditionally, Karnataka is also considered the area for > the original Kishkindha region. Avani in Kolar District > of Karnataka is also a place where Sita brought up both > Lava & Kusha. The temples in Avani are in very bad shape > and are in urgent need of maintenance work. These temples at Avani, by the way, were built during the Nolamba dynasty--9-10th centuries (and other later temples are there too, of course). If I may humbly add: at this very moment I am doing final revisions to proofs of my book on Nolamba temples and the Avani temples and all other Nolamba monuments will be published very soon: Manohar is publishing the book and it is expected to be available in early 1998. The Laksmanesvara temple at Avani has an unusual iconographic scheme--mostly "Devis" (for lack of better work, most images do not have attributes which identify them specifically) and I suggest a possible reading of the temple in the book (and in an _Artibus Asiae- article). Most Nolamba temples are Saiva. Lakulisa is said to have been reincarnated (according to epigraph) at the Nolamba capital of Hemavati (AP). Relative to many temples I've visited, the Avani temples are not in too terrible condition and are maintained by the Karnataka Archaeology dept. Andrew Cohen From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 12 20:54:19 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 15:54:19 -0500 Subject: Exchange items Message-ID: <161227034386.23782.17017096559243983229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has these three duplicates: 21-7754 Indian National Congress. Presidential address. JQ298 .I5 A34 51st, 1938 delivered by Subhas Chandra Bose 96-229265 MLCSA 95/334 Shamsuzzaman. Paigham-i fikr o 'amal. In Urdu. On Bohra sect of Islam. 91-984057 MLCSA 91/01532 Satavalekara, Sripada Damodara. Suryabhedana vyayama 1. avrtti. Paradi: Svadhyaya Mandala, 1974. In Marathi. On Yoga exercises. These are available on exchange to any library with an exchange relationship with LC. Allen Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Fri Dec 12 16:14:56 1997 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 16:14:56 +0000 Subject: summer sanskrit Message-ID: <161227034388.23782.7968450814342508795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the possibility of taking 2nd year Sanskrit in the summer: University of British Colombia has offered Sanskrit in the summer, but (1) I don't know if only 1st year was offered and (2) I don't know if any such course will be offered for Summer 1998. The one to contact about this would be Prof. Ashok Aklujkar, Dept. of Asian Studies, UBC. Someone at Washington should have a contact address or number for Prof. Aklujkar. Another person to contact would be Prof. Madhav Desphande at the University of Michigan (Ann Arbor). E-mail: . As it happens, a number of my first-year students are interested in an intensive 2nd year Sanskrit course this coming summer, but, frankly, I'm pretty sure that the university will make them wait until next Sept. Good luck! Joel Tatelman. Dr. Joel Tatelman, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. Fax: (608) 265-3538 From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Fri Dec 12 18:41:37 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 19:41:37 +0100 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034377.23782.14595430121022756621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In the delocutives that have been mentioned so far (I may have missed some of >the mails) there is no real shift from locution to delocution, for >instance from "to say 'honey'" to "to honey" or from "dire 'tu'" to >"tutoyer". I don't think so. "To honey" is not "to utter honey" but "to call somebody honey". It is transitive and therefore can't possibly stand for "to utter honey" which is an inherently intransitive expression. But maybe I don't understand what you're saying. >The delocutive expression merely refers to the locution (as >also Dominik Wujastyk's example of an infinite recursion indicates). And >in this sense the delocutives do not form a delimited speech act of its >own. I'm not sure Dominik's point is correct. (Incidentally I thought it was just a humorous aside) There's is no infinite recursion in this particular case because in the "don't X me" construction X has to be a term of address (considered offensive, belittling, etc.) X does not stand for any utterance and to X someone stands for to call someone X, it does not stand for to utter X (which would be intransitive) From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Fri Dec 12 18:53:39 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 19:53:39 +0100 Subject: Delocutives (Was: Grahas epithets) Message-ID: <161227034379.23782.2683513065987853882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: >>Incidentally (this is a question -- if you can't stand "inane" >>questions don't read this) can the same construction apply to >>address sounds ?bhooH-karooti, ?dhik-karooti or even vocatives >>?amba-karooti > >I recall a line from the Gurugiitaa: guru.m tva.mk.rtya hu.mk.rtya... Is >this the sort of thing you mean? If "guruM tvaMkrtya" in the above means "having used/said "you" to address the teacher" then yes. Is this what it means here? I'm specifically asking about a _transitive_ use of those kR compound. Is this the case here? (Incidentally that's the same difference between the delocutive meaning "to utter X" (intransitive) and "to call someone X, to say X to someone" (transitive) which was mentioned in another post. Maybe one should use the term "delocutive" only for the latter use?) From mgansten at SBBS.SE Fri Dec 12 19:29:28 1997 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 20:29:28 +0100 Subject: Delocutives (Was: Grahas epithets) Message-ID: <161227034383.23782.12330951198992759581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If "guruM tvaMkrtya" in the above means "having used/said "you" to address >the teacher" then yes. Is this what it means here? I'm specifically asking >about a _transitive_ use of those kR compound. Is this the case here? Yes, it is. I looked it up: hu.mkaare.na na vaktavya.m praaj?ai.h shi.syai.h katha.mcana guror agre na vaktavyam asatya.m ca kadaacana guru.m tva.mk.rtya hu.mk.rtya guru.m nirjitya vaadata.h ara.nye nirjale deshe sa bhaved brahmaraak.sasa.h That one line stuck in my memory because it is the only indication I've seen in Sanskrit literature of "thou" being considered a sometimes too familiar form of address. But perhaps the text reflects the usage of some vernacular? In any case, it seems clear that forms like "guru.m tva.mkaroti" are acceptable at least by Puranic standards. Martin Gansten From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Fri Dec 12 23:31:02 1997 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 00:31:02 +0100 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034389.23782.12927959035544254616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: >> In the delocutives that have been mentioned >> so far (I may have missed some of the mails) >> there is no real shift from locution to >> delocution, for instance from "to say 'honey'" >> to "to honey" or from "dire 'tu'" to "tutoyer". To this Jacob Baltuch remarked: > I don't think so. "To honey" is not "to utter honey > but "to call somebody hoeny". It is transitive and > therefore can't possibly stand for "to utter honey" > which is an inherently intransitive expression. You're of course right that in this context "to say honey" in not just to utter the word "honey" but to say "honey" _to someone_ (whether out of affection or playing on this content of the expression). My point, however, is that there is no functional difference between "to call someone 'honey'" and "to honey someone". There may be good reasons to have a linguistic technical term such as "delocutive" for the latter kind of verb, but this does not make it a speech act of its own. I also wrote: >> The delocutive expression merely refers to the >> locution (as also Dominik Wujastyk's example of an >> infinite recursion indicates). And in this sense >> the delocutives do not form a delimited speech act >> of its own. And Jacob Baltuch: > I'm not sure Dominik's point is correct. (Incidentally > I thought it was just a humorous aside) There's is > no infinite recursion in this particular case because > in the "don't X me" construction X has to be a term of > address (considered offensive, belittling, etc.) X does > not stand for to utter X (which would be intransitive) Whether a joke or not, the example illustrates that in principle one can go on forming delocutives at higher and higher meta levels which do not really alter the speech-act-character of the expressions that are so "delocutived" (to stay in style). Kindly Mikael Aktor, Dept of the Study of Religions, University of Aarhus, Denmark. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Dec 13 01:46:48 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 02:46:48 +0100 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034391.23782.9620897277900902015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mikael Aktor wrote: >My point, however, is that there is no functional difference between "to call >someone 'honey'" and "to honey someone". There may be good reasons to >have a linguistic technical term such as "delocutive" for the latter kind >of verb, but this does not make it a speech act of its own. Are you talking about the difference between "dire 'salut'" and "saluer", "say 'hail' to someone" and "hail someone" (="greet someone"), "say 'ok' to a proposal" and "ok a proposal" (="approve a proposal")? From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Dec 13 13:27:18 1997 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 08:27:18 -0500 Subject: summer sanskrit In-Reply-To: <199712122210.QAA163240@mail5.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227034406.23782.18368374818007740303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The University of Michigan is again planning to offer Intensive Summer Sanskrit in the summer of 1998, as it did last summer. However, this is Intensive Beginning Sanskrit, and not Intensive 2nd Year Sanskrit. Sorry. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Joel H. Tatelman wrote: > Regarding the possibility of taking 2nd year Sanskrit in the summer: > > University of British Colombia has offered Sanskrit in the summer, but > (1) I don't know if only 1st year was offered and (2) I don't know if any > such course will be offered for Summer 1998. The one to contact about > this would be Prof. Ashok Aklujkar, Dept. of Asian Studies, UBC. Someone > at Washington should have a contact address or number for Prof. Aklujkar. > > Another person to contact would be Prof. Madhav Desphande at the > University of Michigan (Ann Arbor). E-mail: . > > As it happens, a number of my first-year students are interested in an > intensive 2nd year Sanskrit course this coming summer, but, frankly, I'm > pretty sure that the university will make them wait until next Sept. > > Good luck! > > Joel Tatelman. > > Dr. Joel Tatelman, > Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, > Department of South Asian Studies, > University of Wisconsin-Madison, > 1250 Van Hise Hall, > 1220 Linden Drive, > Madison, WI 53706 > > Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. > Fax: (608) 265-3538 > From lnelson at PWA.ACUSD.EDU Sat Dec 13 11:54:44 1997 From: lnelson at PWA.ACUSD.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 11:54:44 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Japanese Network for South Asian Studies ( JP-SAS) Message-ID: <161227034405.23782.5444649259339352593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded, FYI. Please direct queries to Dr. Fukunaga. LN ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:53:49 -0800 From: jp-sas at tokyo.email.ne.jp (DR.FUKUNAGA Masaaki) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Japanese Network for South Asian Studies(JP-SAS) Dear friends and colleagues; It is my great pleasure to inform you that the Japanese Network for South Asian Studies (JP-SAS) has started the web site of English edition. The page was created and maintained by myself. Asking the favor of your kind co-optation and contribute to this new web site of internet communication base for South Asian Research activities in Japan. Kindly make LINK to your homage and to provide this information all of your members and related colleagues. Thank you in advance. DR.FUKUNAGA Masaaki --JAPANESE NETWORK FOR SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES(JP-SAS)-- $B!!!!!! (B http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~BS8M-FKNG/e-index.html -The Japanese Network for South Asian Studies(JP-SAS)- The Japanese Network for South Asian Studies(JP-SAS) is maintained by Dr.FUKUNAGA Masaaki, and has been on line since December,1997. This Network is established by personal efforts of FUKUNAGA and supported by several South Asian scholars in Japan. Then, JP-SAS is the private site, not connected to the any official Institutions , Association, and Government Agencies. The primary purpose of JP-SAS is to enable all of the South Asia Scholars whose major language is other than Japanese, to easily communicate the South Asia Research activities in Japan. JP-SAS is the only one site which dispatch the South Asian Research Information of Japan. ##WHAT DOES IT OFFER?## JP-SAS will be provide several aspects of the Japanese research information and materials as following; (1)Current research and teaching activities in Japan, (2)Information for the Conferences and Research Meetings which held in Japan, Also, Calls for papers are available. (2)The Japanese Directory of South Asia Research Institutes, (3)New Publications such as articles, books, papers which written in other than Japanese language by the scholars in Japan, (4)Catalog and Contents of the Journals for South Asian Studies in Japan, (5)Information of organizational activities of South Asian Research Association in Japan, (6)The other information which related to the South Asian Studies in Japan. JP-SAS has two editions for Japanese and English, and is maintain the Mailinglist group in Japanese. $B!! (B ##MESSAGES FROM AND TO JAPAN## The News from JP-SAS will be post to individuals of South Asia Scholar, South Asia Research Institutes in the world, Internet Communication Group as H-ASIA of Michigan State University and South Asia Studies List of Australian National University. If you have any information and news for South Asia Scholars and Institutes in Japan, JP-SAS will be deliver it to the members of Mailinglist of Japanese Edition. $B!! (B JP-SAS respects the copyrights of authors whose material is posted on its e-mail address. Authors who post items to JP-SAS convey to JP-SAS only the right to reproduce electronically their work on JP-SAS and in JP-SAS. ##HOW YOU CAN HELP JP-SAS## If you know that your computer address is changing please inform me as soon as possible. Also, please let your colleagues know about the Japanese Network for South Asian Studies and encourage them to netscape and submit their news on South Asian Studies activities. During the coming year, I will be seeking volunteers to assist in various JP-SAS activities. If you are interested in playing a role in JP-SAS, please contact FUKUNAGA Masaaaki. Thanks for your support of JP-SAS. Japanese Network for South Asian Studies(JP-SAS) Director DR.FUKUNAGA Masaaki http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~BS8M-FKNG/e-index.html e-mail jp-sas at tokyo.email.ne.jp From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Sat Dec 13 17:24:40 1997 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (AppuArchie) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 12:24:40 -0500 Subject: Kill before being killed Message-ID: <161227034397.23782.14727742793765127525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kill before being killed. I was reluctant to post anything in Indology, after the 'tolkAppijam' fracas. As a student of Tamil I could not go past a reference to: ?taRkollijy muR kolka' in the Tamil book 'tamizh ilakkija varalARu' by Prof. Madhu S. Vimalanandham under 'kunhdalakEci', without passing it to those interested. This is also a quotation in translation from another Tamil scholar. Only my interpretation of that passage follows: [The only daughter Paththirai of the Prime Minister from the land Rajakiruka, fell in love with a thief by the name of Kalan who was sentenced to death. She saved him from the gallows set by her father and married him. One day during one of their love quarrels - ('Udal'), she addressed him as a thief! This angered Kalan the husband. He controlled his anger and pretended to love her and at the right time invited her to pay homage to the mountain god that saved his life - ('en ujir kAtta malyt tejvatty vanhangki varuvOm vA'') and took her to the mountain peak. There he said to her, "The other day you called me a thief, I am going to kill you. Pray to your God." - ('anRenyk kaLvanenRAj : inRunyk kollap pOkiRen, vazhipadu kadavuLy vanhangkikkoL'). The shocked Paththirai, thought of "Kill before being killed" - ('taR kollijy muR kolka,') and having destroyed her love for him, asked him as she walked around him in worship: "Is there any other God I worship? You are that God." - ('NAn vazhipadu kadavuL vERundO? tAngkaL anRO attejvam') and pushed him from behind head first. Thereafter she got fed up with material worldly life and became a Jain nun. According to Jain custom, she had to cut short her hair. The hair continued to grow into ball of curls. Since her hair appeared as a ball - ('kunhdu') she came to be known as "The woman with the hair of ball of curls" - ('kunhdala kEci'). She participated in religious debates. Because she lost in debate to a Buddhist monk, she embraced Buddhism. This is the story of Kundalakesi. Based on Kundalakeci, Kalaignar Karunanidhi created the cinema epic 'maNtirikumAri' - the Prime Minister's daughter. Poems in Kundalakesi are full of sweet words and contents.] From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Dec 13 13:20:22 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 14:20:22 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya again Message-ID: <161227034408.23782.18222114568477210276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, In a private mail, sarma quote two mistakes I've made: 1) giving parAzara as the son of vyAsa. In fact, I was just searching to date the texts and I've found this ref: Louis RENOU, L'Inde classique, ? 823 : "La tradition [...] attribue les purAna a ce meme vyAsa qu'elle connait pour l'auteur du mahAbhArata (le viSNu se donne pour l'oeuvre de parAzara, fils de vyAsa)". Not knowing myself the tradition about vyAsa, I was unable to detect the Renou's lapsus ;-) 2) I've missed an other MBh ref to tArA's story: 0090500011/.yatra.iijivaan.uDu.patii.raaja.suuyena.bhaarata./{Vai} 0090500013/.tasmin.vRtte.mahaan.aasiit.samgraamas.taarakaamayah.// where, even if the variant is not attested, according with sarma, taarakaamayoh seems to be a better construction. Apologizing for that, I can add an other remark: In the eleven attestations of taarakaamaya in the Poona's MBh (found in Pr.Tokunaga files), ten of them (2 nom. & 8 loc.) show the word at the end of a pada. Hence, the 'a' beeing a fifth syllab, this give a strong support to the maintenance of an ancient short 'a'. The eleventh: 0020240251/.RSikeSu.tu.samgraamo.babhuuva.atibhayam.karah./ 0020240253/.taarakaa.maya.samkaazah.parama.RSika.paarthayoh.// beeing just a comparison, the fight can't be identified by me; but the length of the second syllab is free. In an other ambiguous comparison, the unique rAmAyana's attestation (again Pr.Tokunaga's files): 600404912/.vyuuDhaani..kapi.sainyaani..prakaazante..adhikam..prabho./ 600404934/.devaanaam..iva..sainyaani..samgraame..taarakaamaye.// the word is again ending a pada. A last word. After my parsing contribution to sarma's enquiry, I would be happy to read the itihAsa. Don't having access to Indian books, if someone could send me a photocopy of this tenth of pages: Gita Press, Gorakhpur: viSNu purAN 4.6, pages 310-311, 1976 matsya purAN chapter 23, pages 81-85, 1984 zrimadbhAgavatamahApurANam(mUlamAtram), 9.14,pages 457-458,1965 brahmANDpUraNam, II-65,pages 136-137,1st edition (Motilal Banarasidas) 1973 I could send him anything (money or local South France product) he would like in return. Best regards, Dominique PS: from a time, there is no more criticism about the original form tAra-kAmayoH (in tArA's context). Are Prs.Yaroslav Vassilkov and Georg von Simson convinced ? Dominique THILLAUD 25 rue Xavier de MAISTRE 06100 NICE - FRANCE From thillaud at UNICE.FR Sat Dec 13 14:41:26 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 15:41:26 +0100 Subject: Delocutives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034399.23782.17006018427796498781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 2:46 +0100 13/12/97, Jacob Baltuch wrote: >Mikael Aktor wrote: > >>My point, however, is that there is no functional difference between "to call >>someone 'honey'" and "to honey someone". There may be good reasons to >>have a linguistic technical term such as "delocutive" for the latter kind >>of verb, but this does not make it a speech act of its own. > >Are you talking about the difference between "dire 'salut'" and "saluer", >"say 'hail' to someone" and "hail someone" (="greet someone"), "say 'ok' >to a proposal" and "ok a proposal" (="approve a proposal")? Yes, there are good reasons to have a linguistic technical term such as "delocutive". But not only for pragmatical purpose and English/American, poor in derivations and compounds (but 'yes-man'!), don't show well this reasons. That's to explain some irregularities in the words' formation as Latin 'salvere', French 'saluer' against Latin 'salvare', French 'sauver'. And, from this point of view, we can reintroduce words such ahaMvAdin, showing an unusual aham- against the usual mad- for 'aham' compounds. Even if a dubious vocative tAra was a wrong track to explain tArakAmaya, some other words could be derived from vocatives of imperatives (remember recent posts about bodhi). Were such formations aborded by pANini ? Regards, Dominique PS: about 'yes-man', you can compare the funny French equivalent 'beni-oui-oui', an Arabo-French chimera 'son of oui!oui!' (issued from the Maghreb colonization by the France, but today completely naturalized, the 'beni' beeing understand 'blessed', 'simpleton'). Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thompson at JLC.NET Sun Dec 14 12:21:25 1997 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 08:21:25 -0400 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034395.23782.13722645807374247348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you to Jacob and Mikael for carrying on this discussion. It helps me to sort out the issues involved. I've been thinking the discussion over in my mind, before rashly [I hope] hitting the 'send' button. With regard to the distinction that you are trying to clarify: >Mikael Aktor wrote: > >My point, however, is that there is no functional difference between "to call >someone 'honey'" and "to honey someone". There may be good reasons to >have a linguistic technical term such as "delocutive" for the latter kind >of verb, but this does not make it a speech act of its own. > >Are you talking about the difference between "dire 'salut'" and "saluer", >"say 'hail' to someone" and "hail someone" (="greet someone"), "say 'ok' >to a proposal" and "ok a proposal" (="approve a proposal")? > I am also unsure that I fully understand the point that Mikael is trying to make [although I agree that there is no functional difference betw. the members of each pair]. It seems to me, however, that all of these utterances are speech acts. The question is: of what kind? i.e., what is their illocutionary force? [admittedly, these are not performatives; but that is a different matter: they are still speech acts, aren't they?]. Also, I'd like to retain the term 'delocutive', which seems to me to be of great value. The point that seems important, to me, is that in the pairs of utterances cited by Jacob above the second could not exist without the first, i.e., the second is derived from the first [therefore 'delocutive' rather than 'denominative' or 'deverbative', etc.]. Delocutives seem to play a prominent role in conventional, ritualized discourse [e.g., in the choice in French between 'tu' and 'vous', in German between 'du' and 'sie', etc.] In the article in which he coins the term 'delocutive', Benveniste confines himself to delocutive verbs. And thus also the examples cited by others have all been verbs. But the Skt. forms that I am interested in have not been verb forms exclusively. My examples have been noun forms that seem to me nevertheless to be derived from conventional locutions as well. Take the noun form 'ahaMkAra', which I take it we all agree means 'the aham-cry', analogous to other familiar Skt, forms like oMkAra, vaSaTkAra, svAhAkAra. The underlying verb-form for these would be *aham-kR-, etc., which I would be tempted to translate 'to aham', etc. We have already in the RV va'SaT...'kRNomi', as well as ' 'hi'G...akRNot' [besides other forms of kR-, like kRNva't, kR'ti]. So the analytic forms of these expressions are well attested. Also, as van Buitenen observes, the form 'ahaMkAra', and 'aham' alone, are found often with quotative 'iti'. The practice of using such forms in Skt. appears to be significantly metalinguistic in intent [just as the interest that the list has shown in such forms has been!]. So in Vedic Sanskrit, it would appear, besides saying 'don't "honey" me' [e.g., with a quotative 'iti'] one could say 'don't *do* [or rather 'say': kR-] honey to me'. See RV 7.99.7: va'SaT te viSNav Asa' A' kRNomi O ViSNu, I do the vaSaT to you from out of my own mouth. This material is interesting because it shows us the verb kR- being used as a speech-act verb [verbum dicendi]. The context in which this material developed was a highly ritualized one, with well-defined ritual utterances [vyAhRtis] that were to be performed [kR-] at fixed occasions. Perhaps it casts interesting light on the term 'karman' as ritual performance. In fact, the cry 'aham' is a highly marked ritualized utterance in Vedic, as van Buitenen showed for the upaniSads, and as I have tried to show for the RV [Heesterman has pointed to interesting examples as well]. By the way, for those who are interested in bibliographic refs. to the term 'delocutive', see Renou, EVP 16, p.27, commenting on RV 1.181.3: discussing the form 'ahampUrva', Renou characterizes it as an "expression de'locutive" [= one who is first to say 'I'], and cites Wackernagel II.1, p.327. For other refs. see EVP 16, pp. 44 et 66 as well]. So in Skt. at least delocutive expressions need not be restricted to verb forms [in English we have my example: 'yes-man', which I still think is delocutive]. One last point, Martin Gansten's nice example of tvam + kR- [with disrespectful connotation] is attested also at Manu 11.205, and I believe that it can be identified in the RV within the agonistic verbal contests that were a central feature of the tradition. Interesting things could be said [though not now] based on a comparison of aham-sequences and tvam-sequences in the RV. The Vedic material seems to suggest a rather sophisticated awareness of certain types of language as action [perhaps we can say, in response to an interesting paper by Lars Goehler* [which is focussed on mImAMsA], that there was evidence, even in the RV, of a proto-speech-act theory]. * "Gab es im alten Indien eine Sprechakttheorie?", in _Beitraege zur Geschichte der Sprachwissenschaft_ 5 [1995]. Can anyone tell me: are such phenomena at all common in later Indo-Aryan languages, or in Dravidian languages? With best wishes and apologies for the length of this post, George Thompson From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Dec 15 08:44:41 1997 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 00:44:41 -0800 Subject: Consonant Conjuncts in Gurmukhi. Message-ID: <161227034393.23782.8005040128763190094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Could anyone please refer me to any texts which will give me a list of attested consonant conjuncts in Gurmukhi? I've looked through several grammars (and perhaps indeed the wrong ones) and only came up with a handful, drawn from these various texts. I figure that there ought to be a comprehensive listing somewhere. Those that I came across are (in random order): tr pr sn sch gy sw sth sT mh nh lh khr gr dr br bhr .Dh (retroflex flap + /h/) Thanks! Regards, Anshuman Pandey From tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 15 13:29:39 1997 From: tattvarthi at YAHOO.COM (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 05:29:39 -0800 Subject: address of J. L. Shaw Message-ID: <161227034416.23782.10704254564162328077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear coleagues, does anybody of you know the whereabouts of Dr. J. L. Shaw? If I'm not mistaken, he taught philosophy at Victoria University of Wellington several years ago. I tried to find his e-mail address through Infoseek, but failed. Many thanks in advance. Sincerely Yours, Olenev Dmitry _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Mon Dec 15 07:01:07 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 10:01:07 +0300 Subject: Madhyamaka-hRdaya Message-ID: <161227034400.23782.9198028408214046192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, does anybody know anything about the destiny and present location of the original Sanskrit text of "Madhyamaka-hRdaya" by Bhavya (BhAvaviveka) which was copied by Rahula Sankrityayana in 1936 in Tibet? I have some information on what happened to it before 1980 - mostly from Prof. Hajime Nakamura's "Indian Buddhism"(2nd Indian edition, Delhi, 1989, pp.284-285). Two small portions of the Sanskrit text were edited and translated into English by V.V.Gokhale in IIJ, vol.2, 1958, n.3, pp. 165-180 and IIJ, vol.XIV, 1972, n.1/2, pp.40-45. V.V.Gokhale used a copy of the Sankrityayana's copy. But I don't have answers to two most important questions: 1. Did V.V.Gokhale (or some other scholar) published later any other parts of the Sanskrit text? Or has the complete text been published since 1980? 2. What happened to Gokhale's copy or Sankrityayana's copy itself? Where it is now? Any information will be of great help to me and my colleagues. Thanks in advance. With my best wishes Yaroslav Vassilkov St. Petersburg Institute of Oriental Studies Russian Academy of Sciences yavass at yavass.usr.pu.ru tel/fax: 7 (812) 275 8179 From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 15 10:50:27 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 10:50:27 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227034403.23782.8969279677991609778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Test. Pl. ignore. sarma. From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Dec 15 16:40:29 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 11:40:29 -0500 Subject: Tobacco in India, also Maize Message-ID: <161227034427.23782.10576388073115207672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some weeks ago there was a correspondence on the first evidence of tobacco from India. As far as I noticed there was no mention of P.K. Gode's articles on the subject. These are reprinted in his work Studies in Indian cultural history, vol. 1, Hoshiarpur : Vishveshvaranand Vedic Research Institute, 1961 (Vishveshvaranand Indological Series, 9), p. 410-438. For those without access to this but with access to some of the journals of first publication, I give the individual citations here: References to tobacco in some Sanskrit works between A.D. 1600 and 1900. Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 38, 225-232. References to Tobacco in Marathi literature and records between A.D. 1600 and 1900. Poona Orientalist, 20, 20-21. A reference to tobacco in the poems of Sena Nhavi and its bearing on his date (later than c. A.D. 1550). Poona Orientalist, 22, no. 1-2, 37-39. A history of tobacco in India and Europe between A.D. 1500 and 1800. Bharatiya Vidya, 16, no. 1, 65-74. In the last paper Gode cites Asad Beg's account of his ambassadorship from Akbar to Bijapur in 1604-1605, during which he brought back tobacco and introduced Akbar to it. He also cites an article by Blockmann in Indian Antiquary, 1, 164, which quotes the Bahar i-'ajam (c. 1760) quoting the Ma'asir i-rahimi (a quick computer search finds nothing about either of these works). to the effect that tobacco came from Europe to the Deccan and was introduced to Upper India during the realm of Akbar. (Could this be based on the previous?) Did the other American product maize get mentioned? Gode also has an article on this (op.cit, 283-294, originally published in Sen, Surendra Nath, ed. Mahamahopadhyaya D. V. Potdar sixty-first birthday commemoration volume, 14-25). His earliest citation for maize in India is the Vaidyavata.msa of Lolimbar-aja, who fl. between 1640 and 1710. Allen Thrasher From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Mon Dec 15 11:45:23 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (D.H. Killingley) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 11:45:23 +0000 Subject: delocutives [was Graha epithets (tArA,tArakA and tAraka)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034410.23782.14775097118974993410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some people are irritated by sonny-boying and some can't stand honeying. On Jonathan Silk's test, the okaying of these as delocutives presents no difficulties. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, jonathan silk wrote: > For me, perhaps, the test is whether -ing "gerunds" are > possible. From noel at FREENET.CARLETON.CA Mon Dec 15 17:21:47 1997 From: noel at FREENET.CARLETON.CA (Noel Evans) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 12:21:47 -0500 Subject: Kumbha mela 1998 Message-ID: <161227034420.23782.15620090354634948912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Could anybody kindly give me detailed informations on > the Kumbha mela as it will take place in Haridwar in > spring of 1998? I have the following information from one of the editors of Hinduism Today: ------ Date: Wed Aug 6 23:14:49 1997 From: tyagi_kathirswami at hinduismtoday.kauai.hi.us ("Tyagi Kathirswami") Subject: Mela To: noel at freenet.carleton.ca ("Noel Noel") Mela Namaskar, Noel: Kumbha mela, '98: Starts: Feb 1st Major events: Sivaratri Feb 25st Amavasya bath, march 28th (consider by some most important, big crowd.) Final Day April 24 ( also very important, Sun moves into Aries, could have the largest crowd.) om shanti, Yours in peace, Kathirswami Production Manager/Promotion Hinduism Today International Magazine Himalayan Academy Publications email: tyagi_kathirswami at hinduismtoday.kauai.hi.us WEB: www.HinduismToday.kauai.hi.us ------ -- regards n o e l @freenet.carleton.ca From Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Mon Dec 15 11:55:07 1997 From: Sara.Mcclintock at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Sara McClintock) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 12:55:07 +0100 Subject: Madhyamaka-hRdaya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034414.23782.12960408598738605747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Vasslikov and Listmembers: The following information concerning the history of the Madhyamaka-hRdaya manuscript is taken from S.S. Bahulkar's introduction to the photographic reproduction of Prof. V.V. Gokale's hand-copy. It seems that the manuscript has made its way to China and that a photographic reproduction of the ms was published there in 1991. Bahulkar gives the bibliographic information as follows: Jiang Zhingxin, "Sanskrit TarkajvAlA-SUtra Manuscript Copy" (in Chinese) in _Papers in Honor of Dr. Ji Xianlin on the Occasion of his 80th Birthday_, Jiang Xi, China, 1991, pp. 212-217 (+ 12 pages containing photographs of the manuscript). The manuscript is written in RaJjanA script. It was with the idea of facilitating the reading of these photographs that the editors of the journal SaMbhASA (vol 15, 1994) published by the Nagoya Studies in India Culture and Buddhism decided to publish the photographs of Gokhale's hand-copy (written in Devanagari script). This publication also features a short introduction by Bahulkar, who had worked on the text with Professor Gokhale. In that introduction, Bahulkar mentions a joint project to prepare a critical edition of the Sanskrit, initiated by Gokhale and presently (?) being undertaken by H. Nakamura, J. Takasaki, S. Kawasaki, Y. Ejima and others. He lists a number of preliminary studies and editions of chapters that have come out of this joint project. As of the present time, I am not aware of any complete critical edition of the text. If anyone on the list knows whether this Japanese project has come to completion, please do alert us all. Since Professor Gokhale passed away in 1991, I am not sure what has become of the project. Bahulkar's introduction does not make clear where either Samskrtyayana's or Gokhale's hand-manuscripts are now. I suspect that Gokhale's version may be with Bahulkar himself. There is mention in the introduction of "photographs of the same MS" which Gokhale obtained from Prof. Tucci. It is unclear whether these are photographs of Samskrtyayana's edition, but I suspect that is the case. This is all that I know about this at the present time. If anyone has further information, I too would be happy to hear of it. Sara McClintock At 10:01 AM 12/15/97 +0300, you wrote: >Dear colleagues, > > does anybody know anything about the destiny and present location of >the original Sanskrit text of "Madhyamaka-hRdaya" by Bhavya (BhAvaviveka) >which was copied by Rahula Sankrityayana in 1936 in Tibet? I have some >information on what happened to it before 1980 - mostly from Prof. Hajime >Nakamura's "Indian Buddhism"(2nd Indian edition, Delhi, 1989, pp.284-285). >Two small portions of the Sanskrit text were >edited and translated into English by V.V.Gokhale in IIJ, vol.2, 1958, n.3, >pp. 165-180 and IIJ, vol.XIV, 1972, n.1/2, pp.40-45. V.V.Gokhale used a copy of the >Sankrityayana's copy. But I don't have answers to two most important questions: > > 1. Did V.V.Gokhale (or some other scholar) published later any >other parts of the Sanskrit text? Or has the complete text been published >since 1980? > 2. What happened to Gokhale's copy or Sankrityayana's copy itself? >Where it is now? > > Any information will be of great help to me and my colleagues. > Thanks in advance. > With my best wishes > > Yaroslav Vassilkov > St. Petersburg Institute of Oriental > Studies > Russian Academy of Sciences > yavass at yavass.usr.pu.ru > tel/fax: 7 (812) 275 8179 > > ____________________ Sara McClintock Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universit? de Lausanne From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Mon Dec 15 12:44:09 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 13:44:09 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya again Message-ID: <161227034412.23782.10241799882157383551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique Tillaud asks: > >PS: from a time, there is no more criticism about the original form >tAra-kAmayoH (in tArA's context). Are Prs.Yaroslav Vassilkov and Georg von >Simson convinced ? No, I am not convinced, for the following reasons: 1. The short -a- of tAra is not explained. If you accept the compound tAra-k?ma-, you can no longer presume a delocution (which any way did not convince me in your first explanation), can you? - 2. There does not seem to have been any fight between the two lovers of TArA, Brhaspati and Candra, at all. I do not know all the Puranic versions of the myth, but should like to refer to Vettam Mani, Puranic Encyclopaedia (Delhi 1975), p. 786, s.v. TArA II: "... The Devas were very angry when they found the wife of their preceptor staying with a disciple of his. Brhaspati sent word to her to return home, but she did not heed. At last the Devas decided to fight against Candra. Then they came to a compromise and TArA was sent back to Brhaspati. ..." I am convinced that Yaroslav Vassilkov has found the correct explanation: saNgr?ma- tArakAmaya- was first used in the formalaic epic style with reference to the great battle of the devas (who were under the leadership of Siva's son Skanda) against the demon T?raka. Later on it was (because of a confusion between T?raka and TArA/TArakA) transferred to the story of TArA, Brhaspati and Candra. Maybe the term was then re-interpreted, instead of tAraka+Amaya it may now have been understood as tArakA+maya or even as tAra+kAma. The varia lectio in the Mbh. tArakAmayoH points into this direction, I agree, but it is not enough to show that this was the origin of the compound. Georg von Simson From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 15 18:50:31 1997 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 13:50:31 -0500 Subject: delocut. & NEW ADDRESS Message-ID: <161227034423.23782.6064194229454724733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, more on deloc. once I have unpacked... All who want to be in contact with us, please note our new address, as of today: 2 Divinity Avenue Cambridge MA 02138 the rest remains the same... MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 15 18:58:58 1997 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 13:58:58 -0500 Subject: Summer Skt at Harvard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034425.23782.7496455467257890070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to Vancouver and Ann Arbor, we have been offering Summer Sanskrit since 1988. However, always as an *introduction* to Sanskrit. If there is enough interest for 2nd year Skt., I may change plans. I always have had a few requests, but not enough to start a course. If you are interested, please write to me privately, at the above address. For those interested in 1st year Skt, I attach last year's announcement. The new one is not yet out; it will be more or less the same. M. Witzel ======================================================================= > > SUMMER SANSKRIT at HARVARD. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit > (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. > June 24 - August 16; exam period Aug. 13-16 > Instructor: Michael Witzel > > This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will > enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress > will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and > essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct > translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. > > > Fees: Application fee (nonrefundable $35) > > Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 2,820 > > Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American > carrier) > > On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: > $ 2,360 > (Housing deposit $ 510) > > Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) > through June 5. > > Late registration June 6 - June 28 ($50 late fee). > > Catalogues/Information > from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA > 02138, USA > phone 617- 495 4024 > > > On-line catalogue: > ================= > > http://www.harvard.edu/summer > > gopher.harvard.edu > > Telnet: vine.harvard.edu (at the login type: courses and RETURN) > > via modem: 617 496 8500, > choose option 4 (vine): > select Harv.Univ. course catalogs > then elect Summer school for catalogue and all other info. > > For assistance call 617 496 2001 (Monday-Friday 9am-5pm) > ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Ave. (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Mon Dec 15 16:18:08 1997 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 17:18:08 +0100 Subject: Kumbha mela 1998 Message-ID: <161227034418.23782.1662240849553199378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of Indology list Could anybody kindly give me detailed informations on the Kumbha mela as it will take place in Haridwar in spring of 1998? It seems to be a 'big' one, as it takes place every 12 years. As a research group of our institute we plan to go to Cidambaram in February, during Sivaratri - if things turn out fine, we are thinking to connect this stay with a visit at Haridwar in March; only we are not sure whether it will be a proper time to go. Does anybody knows about special tithis/ ritual events connected with kumbha mela in March? Any kind of further informations on this subject is most welcome. Marianna Kropf From mgansten at SBBS.SE Mon Dec 15 18:15:53 1997 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 19:15:53 +0100 Subject: Kumbha mela 1998 Message-ID: <161227034422.23782.8722276997152234169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Final Day April 24 ( also very important, Sun moves into >Aries, could have the largest crowd.) Surely not on April 24? Sankrantis are normally reckoned according to the sidereal zodiac (nirayana), making the Sun enter Aries around April 14. And by the tropical zodiac (saayana), the Sun will already be in Taurus on that date. Martin Gansten From alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL Mon Dec 15 18:26:22 1997 From: alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL (a.a. slaczka) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 19:26:22 +0100 Subject: International Journal of Hindu Studies Message-ID: <161227036773.23782.14366551569428715234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, So far I could not find the place of publication of the International Journal of Hindu Studies. Can anyone help me ? Thanks in advance, Anna Slaczka. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Tue Dec 16 04:31:48 1997 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 22:31:48 -0600 Subject: Apple Indian language kit In-Reply-To: <199712160235.NAA14888@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227034435.23782.10878893937660055981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was using it during ht etext phase. In that time the "B" in WordPerfect would not render a devanagari b-- or anything else. the absense of accents were also a problem (someday when I finish my dissertation Apple's okay'd me to make the full set . . . ). I imported ILK text into a Three-dimensional modelling prgram by Strata and they looked great. I would imagine a sophisticated publishing package like Adobe would have no problem with it. HOWEVER-- in the texts with which I did use ILK, it greatly shifted the verticle spacingo f the lines in which it was typed. In other words, it really threw off the look of normal single or double-spacing. That was the test/developer releases, however-- and I'm sure this is now worked out. Make sure whomever you buy it from lets you try it out. Academic price is about $200 or less, and a dealer should have it installed onsite for a try-out. the typing interface is a joy, and the output is great quality . Just make sure the spacing from line-to-line is okay. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Royce Wiles wrote: > The Apple Indian language kit supporting Devanagari (plus Gujarati and > Punjabi scripts) was released earlier in 1997. Has anyone on this list used > it to prepare camera-ready copy? Maybe they could share some comments on > what it's like and whether the investment has been worth it. > > I'm particularly keen to know if it works well with PageMaker 6.5. > > Royce Wiles > Australian National University > From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Dec 16 05:09:35 1997 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 23:09:35 -0600 Subject: Apple Indian language kit Message-ID: <161227034437.23782.12066896680211651127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: JR Gardner To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 10:26 PM Subject: Re: Apple Indian language kit >I was using it during ht etext phase. In that time the "B" in WordPerfect >would not render a devanagari b-- or anything else. the absense of >accents were also a problem (someday when I finish my dissertation Apple's >okay'd me to make the full set . . . ). I imported ILK text into a >Three-dimensional modelling prgram by Strata and they looked great. I >would imagine a sophisticated publishing package like Adobe would have no >problem with it. HOWEVER-- in the texts with which I did use ILK, it >greatly shifted the verticle spacingo f the lines in which it was typed. This is a common phenomena for complex fonts,.becasue they require substantially larger type size to look good. When your word processor is set to automatic spacing, even though the character appears to be "normal" size on the screen, it is actually larger as seen by the word processor, so it sets the spacing accordingly. If you go into the line spacing and set it for a particular number of points instead of "single," then the problem goes away. >In other words, it really threw off the look of normal single or >double-spacing. That was the test/developer releases, however-- and I'm >sure this is now worked out. Make sure whomever you buy it from lets you >try it out. Academic price is about $200 or less, and a dealer should >have it installed onsite for a try-out. the typing interface is a joy, >and the output is great quality . Just make sure the spacing from >line-to-line is okay. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >John Robert Gardner Obermann Center >School of Religion for Advanced Studies >University of Iowa University of Iowa >319-335-2164 319-335-4034 >http://vedavid.org http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other >than that of which it is the transformation. > >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Royce Wiles wrote: > >> The Apple Indian language kit supporting Devanagari (plus Gujarati and >> Punjabi scripts) was released earlier in 1997. Has anyone on this list used >> it to prepare camera-ready copy? Maybe they could share some comments on >> what it's like and whether the investment has been worth it. >> >> I'm particularly keen to know if it works well with PageMaker 6.5. >> >> Royce Wiles >> Australian National University >> > From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 16 01:17:25 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 01:17:25 +0000 Subject: tArakAmaya again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034430.23782.16958231298923912656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:44 PM 12/15/97 +0100, you wrote: >2. There does not seem to have been any fight >between the two lovers of TArA, Brhaspati and Candra, at all. I do not know >all the Puranic versions of the myth, but should like to refer to Vettam >Mani, Puranic Encyclopaedia (Delhi 1975), p. 786, s.v. TArA II: "... The >Devas were very angry when they found the wife of their preceptor staying >with a disciple of his. Brhaspati sent word to her to return home, but she >did not heed. At last the Devas decided to fight against Candra. Then they >came to a compromise and TArA was sent back to Brhaspati. ..." This is not so according to purANAs. "tatazca samastazastrANyasureSu rudrapurOgamA dEvA, dEvESu cazESadAnavA mumucuh. Evam dEvAsurasamkSObhakSubdhahRdayamazESamEva jgadbrahmANam zaraNam jagAma. tatazca bhagvAnabjayOnirapyuzanasam sankaramasurAndEvAnzca nivArya bRhaspatayE tArAmAdApayat." viSNu purAN 4.6.16-19 Not only that. candra actually took part in the battle. Because ziva was the disciple of aGgiras the father of bRhaspati, he fought for bRhaspati. "dhanurgRhItvAjagavam purArir jagAma bhUtEzvarasiddhajuSTah yuddhAya sOmEna vizESadIptatRtIyanEtrAnalabhImavaktrah. 37 sahaiva jagmuzca gaNEzakAdyA vimzaccatuSSaSTigaNAstrayuktAh yakSEsvarah kOTizatair anEkair yutO~nvagAt syandanasamsthitAnAm. 38 vEtAlayakSOragakinnarANAm padmEna caikEna tathArbudEna lakSais tribhir dvAdazabhI rathAnAm sOmO~pyagAt tatra vivRddhamanyuh. 39 nakSatradaityAsurasainyayuktah zanaizcarAGgArakavRddhatEjAh jagmur bhayam sapta tathaiva lOkAz cacAla bhUr dvIpasamudragarbhA. 40 sa sOmamEvAbhyagamat pinAkI gRhItadIptAstravizAlavahnih athAbhavad bhISaNabhImasEna(?)sainyadvayasyApi mahAhavO~sau. 41 azESasattvakSayakRtpravRddhas tIkSNAyudhAstrajjvalanaikarUpah zastrair athAnyO~nyam azESasainyam dvayOr jagAma kSayamugratIkSNaih. 42 patanti zastrANi tathOjjvalAni svarbhUmipAtAlamathOdahanti rudrah kOpAd brahmazIrSam mumOca sOmO~pi sOmAstramamOghavIryam." 43 matsya PurAN 23.37-43 In the above slOkAs we find another explanation for the word `tArakAmaya'. "nakSatradaityAsurasainyayuktah zanaizcarAGgArakavRddhatEjAh" Stars and some planets took part in the battle on the side of candra. This can be another possible explanation for calling it tArakAmaya. regards, sarma. From jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Dec 16 01:56:18 1997 From: jhtatelman at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joel H. Tatelman) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 01:56:18 +0000 Subject: Bhadrakalpalataavadaana Message-ID: <161227034441.23782.17951314627203732615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Vassilkov, I am delighted to learn that you are going to be working on Sergei Oldenburg's papers! I am sure there is much of interest to discover there. In his monograph on the Bhadrakalpaavadaana, Oldenburg does thank Sylvain L?vi and the Soci?t? Asiatique for the loan of the BKA manuscript. This would suggest that he used it and eventually returned it. Filliozat's catalogue only states that it is no longer in the Soci?t?'s collection because it was loaned to Oldenburg. In any case, my sincere thanks for your offer to 'look around' for the BKA manuscript. I look forward to hearing from you. If I can be of any assistance to you please do not hesitate to ask. Sincerely yours, Joel Tatelman. Dr. Joel Tatelman, Visiting Lecturer in Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1250 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 Tel.: (608) 276-0447 or 262-2749. Fax: (608) 265-3538 From vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Tue Dec 16 14:51:23 1997 From: vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 09:51:23 -0500 Subject: Kumbha mela 1998 Message-ID: <161227034444.23782.11396523709445913891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor J.E Llewellyn is planning to be there next spring. He has set up a Kumbh Mela home page at http://www.smsu.edu/contrib/relst/kumbhmela.html. For further information, you may contact Jack at JEL807F at WPGATE.SMSU.EDU Best wishes, Vasu Vasudha Narayanan Professor Department of Religion 125 Dauer Hall, University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 >Dear members of Indology list > >Could anybody kindly give me detailed informations on the Kumbha mela as >it will take place in Haridwar in spring of 1998? >It seems to be a 'big' one, as it takes place every 12 years. As a >research group of our institute we plan to go to Cidambaram in February, >during Sivaratri - if things turn out fine, we are thinking to connect >this stay with a visit at Haridwar in March; only we are not sure >whether it will be a proper time to go. >Does anybody knows about special tithis/ ritual events connected with >kumbha mela in March? >Any kind of further informations on this subject is most welcome. > >Marianna Kropf > > From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Tue Dec 16 07:14:19 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 10:14:19 +0300 Subject: Bhadrakalpalataavadaana Message-ID: <161227034439.23782.2258209350043460683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Mon Dec 15 01:47:00 MSK 1997 Dear Dr.Tatelman, the only thing I can say now is that there is no BKA manuscript in our Institute's (former Imperial Asiatic Museum's) library - acc. to its recently compiled catalogue. But there is another important collectiom of Oriental MSS in the city - that of the National (formerly: Public) library, and I have to check there. After all, in the nearest future I am to start working on Sergei Oldenburg's papers in the archives of our Academy of Sciences. If I find any mention of the BKA, not to speak of the MS itself, I shall let you know immediately. I don't believe that such a MS could disappear leaving no trace at all. With my best wishes, yours sincerely Yaroslav Vassilkov From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Tue Dec 16 10:40:17 1997 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 11:40:17 +0100 Subject: Delocutives and speech acts Message-ID: <161227034443.23782.16606345061983654647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What has confused me is that the term "delocutive" sounds as if these expressions form a type of speech acts of its own, i.e. a category of "delocutionary acts" apart from Austin's locutionary, illocutionary and perlocutionary acts. But they do not. They just stress the illocutionary force of an illocutionary act by publicly defining an utterance in terms of a specific wellknown, often ritualized linguistic situation. They say something to the effect of "this is an act of this specific kind" as indicated by George Thompson's vedic examples. They carry a self-referential meaning somewhat like our "hereby" in sentences such as "I hereby pronounce you a married coupple" (or whatever they say in English) or "I hereby sentence you to ...". The same goes for "tutoyer" and "to honey" though in a weaker sense. To address someone by "tu" carries with it specific conventions and "don't you honey me!" stipulates a remark as an unwished type of patronizing. Best regards Mikael Aktor, Dept of the Study of Religions, University of Aarhus, Denmark. aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Dec 16 02:35:27 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 13:35:27 +1100 Subject: Apple Indian language kit Message-ID: <161227034432.23782.5847421526572989189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Apple Indian language kit supporting Devanagari (plus Gujarati and Punjabi scripts) was released earlier in 1997. Has anyone on this list used it to prepare camera-ready copy? Maybe they could share some comments on what it's like and whether the investment has been worth it. I'm particularly keen to know if it works well with PageMaker 6.5. Royce Wiles Australian National University From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Dec 16 20:33:15 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 21:33:15 +0100 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034448.23782.11606305509358242926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [resend] I have (what else) other questions... First look at these French examples, those of Dominique's >PS: about 'yes-man', you can compare the funny French equivalent >'beni-oui-oui', an Arabo-French chimera 'son of oui!oui!' (issued from the >Maghreb colonization by the France, but today completely naturalized, the >'beni' beeing understand 'blessed', 'simpleton'). and a few others le qu'en-dira-t-on une Marie-couche-toi-l? le pourquoi/le comment (d'une chose) un bon tiens vaut mieux que deux tu l'auras It seems in Fr. any utterance can be thought of as an invariable noun when used meta-linguistically as the name of the action of uttering it: "Il commence a m'enerver avec ses je le ferai plus tard" (Doesn't that work in English: "He's getting on my nerves with his I'll do it later"?) Now George Thompson writes: >See RV 7.99.7: va'SaT te viSNav Asa' A' kRNomi > O ViSNu, I do the vaSaT to you from out of my own mouth. > >This material is interesting because it shows us the verb kR- being used as >a speech-act verb [verbum dicendi]. The context in which this material >developed was a highly ritualized one, with well-defined ritual utterances >[vyAhRtis] that were to be performed [kR-] at fixed occasions. Perhaps it >casts interesting light on the term 'karman' as ritual performance. _If_ in Sanskrit you can, like in French, consider the 1st member of those kr compounds to stand for the name of the action of uttering it (thus one could analyze "tvam" in tvamkR as "the _action_ of uttering tvam") then you don't need any special meaning of kR, kR in its usual meaning of "perform" seems to work doesn't it? So, is it sensible to analyze it this (my) way? Can one say that in the Vedic example "vaSaT" is the "accusatif" of an invariable noun which designates the action of uttering "vaSaT"? Of course things would be different in composition with verbs meaning say, utter, cf an example mentioned by Dominique, bhoovaadin. What is its precise meaning? Also I'd be curious if bhooH can also enter in composition with kR as say "bhooHkarooti"? I guess that would depend on "bhooH" having an affective content, e.g. the "gurum tvamkarya" of Martin's examples implies a show of disrespect or familiarity. Since "bhooH" seems pretty neutral I wouldn't expect it to have a transitive kR compound but let me ask anyway. Now I'm do not think that the Sanskrit usage is as free as the French one. Those Sanskrit compounds _seem_ to be restricted to two cases: (1) where the 1st member is a "sound" either ritual or onomatop. (those are the intransitive compounds, George Thompson is in this category -- except it is not a compound :) -- but you know what I mean. Note the construction is with the dative tee and not with the accusative tvaa) (2) where the 1st member has some sort of affective content (those are the transitive compounds, Martin Gansten's example falls in this category) In the first case the 1st member X would stand for the "action of uttering X", in the second case the 1st member X would stand for the "action of using X to address (someone)". Now are these generalizations at all warranted? Of course they go back to my question to which Martin gave one answer. Btw I'm still waiting for an answer about the existence or non-existence of _transitive_ ?dhikkarooti? I'm curious about this because it falls sort of in between the two categories above. Apparently you can say "dhik tvaam muurkha" but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, can you say "tvaam dhikkarooti"? In fact George's example is also interesting as it might also fall in between depending what the precise meaning of "vaSaT" is. What exactly is the content of "vaSaT"? Is Vishnu supposed to be honored by that utterance? Can such compounds ever be transitive -- with tvaam/tvaa instead of tubhyam/tee? Or are Vedic gods just too much above being really affected by the worshipper uttering those sounds (at least in the same way a human "guru" is affected by one calling him "tvam" at least to the point that he gets put in the accusative)? In other words I'm curious what the implication is of using a transitive vs an intransitive construction in cases which admit both (in case there are such) Re: impropriety of using "tvam". Martin was writing his example was a rare testimony of that fact. Also Renou's grammar mentions that Mhbh XIII 163 53 forbids "tvaMkaara" from inferior to superior. From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Tue Dec 16 20:33:15 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 21:33:15 +0100 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034446.23782.8890399353228006525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have (what else) other questions... First look at these French examples, those of Dominique's >PS: about 'yes-man', you can compare the funny French equivalent >'beni-oui-oui', an Arabo-French chimera 'son of oui!oui!' (issued from the >Maghreb colonization by the France, but today completely naturalized, the >'beni' beeing understand 'blessed', 'simpleton'). and a few others le qu'en-dira-t-on une Marie-couche-toi-l? le pourquoi/le comment (d'une chose) un bon tiens vaut mieux que deux tu l'auras It seems in Fr. any utterance can be thought of as an invariable noun when used meta-linguistically as the name of the action of uttering it: "Il commence a m'enerver avec ses je le ferai plus tard" (Doesn't that work in English: "He's getting on my nerves with his I'll do it later"?) Now George Thompson writes: >See RV 7.99.7: va'SaT te viSNav Asa' A' kRNomi > O ViSNu, I do the vaSaT to you from out of my own mouth. > >This material is interesting because it shows us the verb kR- being used as >a speech-act verb [verbum dicendi]. The context in which this material >developed was a highly ritualized one, with well-defined ritual utterances >[vyAhRtis] that were to be performed [kR-] at fixed occasions. Perhaps it >casts interesting light on the term 'karman' as ritual performance. _If_ in Sanskrit you can, like in French, consider the 1st member of those kr compounds to stand for the name of the action of uttering it (thus one could analyze "tvam" in tvamkR as "the _action_ of uttering tvam") then you don't need any special meaning of kR, kR in its usual meaning of "perform" seems to work doesn't it? So, is it sensible to analyze it this (my) way? Can one say that in the Vedic example "vaSaT" is the "accusatif" of an invariable noun which designates the action of uttering "vaSaT"? Of course things would be different in composition with verbs meaning say, utter, cf an example mentioned by Dominique, bhoovaadin. What is its precise meaning? Also I'd be curious if bhooH can also enter in composition with kR as say "bhooHkarooti"? I guess that would depend on "bhooH" having an affective content, e.g. the "gurum tvamkarya" of Martin's examples implies a show of disrespect or familiarity. Since "bhooH" seems pretty neutral I wouldn't expect it to have a transitive kR compound but let me ask anyway. Now I'm do not think that the Sanskrit usage is as free as the French one. Those Sanskrit compounds _seem_ to be restricted to two cases: (1) where the 1st member is a "sound" either ritual or onomatop. (those are the intransitive compounds, George Thompson is in this category -- except it is not a compound :) -- but you know what I mean. Note the construction is with the dative tee and not with the accusative tvaa) (2) where the 1st member has some sort of affective content (those are the transitive compounds, Martin Gansten's example falls in this category) In the first case the 1st member X would stand for the "action of uttering X", in the second case the 1st member X would stand for the "action of using X to address (someone)". Now are these generalizations at all warranted? Of course they go back to my question to which Martin gave one answer. Btw I'm still waiting for an answer about the existence or non-existence of _transitive_ ?dhikkarooti? I'm curious about this because it falls sort of in between the two categories above. Apparently you can say "dhik tvaam muurkha" but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, can you say "tvaam dhikkarooti"? In fact George's example is also interesting as it might also fall in between depending what the precise meaning of "vaSaT" is. What exactly is the content of "vaSaT"? Is Vishnu supposed to be honored by that utterance? Can such compounds ever be transitive -- with tvaam/tvaa instead of tubhyam/tee? Or are Vedic gods just too much above being really affected by the worshipper uttering those sounds (at least in the same way a human "guru" is affected by one calling him "tvam" at least to the point that he gets put in the accusative)? In other words I'm curious what the implication is of using a transitive vs an intransitive construction in cases which admit both (in case there are such) Re: impropriety of using "tvam". Martin was writing his example was a rare testimony of that fact. Also Renou's grammar mentions that Mhbh XIII 163 53 forbids "tvaMkaara" from inferior to superior. From alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL Wed Dec 17 03:35:16 1997 From: alxandra at STAD.DSL.NL (a.a. slaczka) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 04:35:16 +0100 Subject: Pondichery, email address Message-ID: <161227037851.23782.2369669506961207160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Can anyone provide me with the email-address of the Institut Francais de Pondichery, Departement of Indology? Thank you in advance, Anna Slaczka From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Wed Dec 17 13:45:25 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 14:45:25 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya again Message-ID: <161227034450.23782.10618128365781254886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sarma wrote: >At 01:44 PM 12/15/97 +0100, you wrote: >>2. There does not seem to have been any fight >>between the two lovers of TArA, Brhaspati and Candra, at all. I do not know >>all the Puranic versions of the myth, but should like to refer to Vettam >>Mani, Puranic Encyclopaedia (Delhi 1975), p. 786, s.v. TArA II: "... The >>Devas were very angry when they found the wife of their preceptor staying >>with a disciple of his. Brhaspati sent word to her to return home, but she >>did not heed. At last the Devas decided to fight against Candra. Then they >>came to a compromise and TArA was sent back to Brhaspati. ..." >This is not so according to purANAs. Vettam Mani seems to follow the BhAgavatapurANa. You are right: the older purANas know indeed of a battle about TArA (though I cannot see that BRhaspati himself takes part in the fight), and they call this battle in the same way as the battle against the demon TAraka "tArakAmaya- (yuddha- or saNgrAma-)". You find the apparently oldest, common purANa-version of the story in W. Kirfel, Das PurANa PancalakSaNa, p. 352 (vs. 34): tatra tad yuddham abhavat prakhyAtaM tArakAmayam ... The more specific explanation of the term tArakAmaya is not to be found here, but in the prose paraphrase of the ViSNupurANa: evaM ca tayor atIvograH sangrAmas tArakAnimittas tArakAmayo nAmAbhavat, making it clear that the author reads the name TArakA=TArA into the term. (Thereafter follow the lines quoted by you: >"tatazca samastazastrANyasureSu rudrapurOgamA dEvA, dEvESu cazESadAnavA >mumucuh. Evam dEvAsurasamkSObhakSubdhahRdayamazESamEva jgadbrahmANam >zaraNam jagAma. tatazca bhagvAnabjayOnirapyuzanasam sankaramasurAndEvAnzca >nivArya bRhaspatayE tArAmAdApayat." viSNu purAN 4.6.16-19) I still do not believe that -kAma- can be considered as an original component of tArakAmaya-. I would rather support the idea you express in connection with your quotation from the MatsyapurANa (23.40): >"nakSatradaityAsurasainyayuktah zanaizcarAGgArakavRddhatEjAh" >In the above slOkAs we find another explanation for the word `tArakAmaya'. >Stars and some planets took part in the battle on the side of candra. >This can be another possible explanation for calling it tArakAmaya. Indeed, as tArA and tAraka may mean 'star', it seems probable that both the Skanda-TAraka- and the Soma-TArA-myth have an astronomical background. Kirfel gives in ZDMG 102 (1952), p. 66-90) a detailed analysis of the purANic TArA-myth. Following the suggestion of the astronomer H. Werner, he identifies TArA with the zodiacal constellation Virgo, whose brightest star, Spica (alpha Virginis), is identical with the nakSatra Citr? (p. 82 f.). Werner/Kirfel point to interesting connections between Spica and the planets Mercury (TArA in our myth becomes the mother of Budha) and Jupiter (BRhaspati) in Babylonian astral myths. But even if this might have been the original astronomical background of the story, I suspect that in India it has been transferred from the nakSatra CitrA to PuSya, because this latter is governed by BRhaspati and the story may now point to the full moon visiting PuSya once a year, about the winter solstice and thus sullying the bed of his guru. Does anybody know of an astronomical interpretation of the Skanda-TAraka myth? Best regards Georg v. Simson From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 17 15:29:41 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 15:29:41 +0000 Subject: tArakAmaya again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034452.23782.2447152251211312018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:45 PM 12/17/97 +0100, George V. Simson writes: >The more specific explanation of the term tArakAmaya is not to be found >here, but in the prose paraphrase of the ViSNupurANa: evaM ca tayor >atIvograH sangrAmas tArakAnimittas tArakAmayo nAmAbhavat, making it clear >that the author reads the name TArakA=TArA into the term. As I have quoted in my earlier posting the above sentence occurs in the viSNu purANa Edition (Gita Press, Gorakhpur) I have, as "EvaM ca tayor atIvograsangrAmas tArAnimittas tArakAmayO nAmAbhUt" Usually Gita Press editions try to maintain textual accuracy. I will be very much obliged if you can let me know the edition from which you are quoating the above sentence. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 17 16:24:21 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 16:24:21 +0000 Subject: tArakAmaya again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034456.23782.14152396262812996190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:45 PM 12/17/97 +0100, George V. Simson writes: >Vettam Mani seems to follow the BhAgavatapurANa. Vettam Mani does not seem to follow BhAgavatapurAnA also because it clearly mentions that a battle has taken place, as given below. yadA sa dEvaguruNA yAchitO~bhIkSNazO madAt nAtyajat tatkRtE jajJE suradAnavavigrahah. 5 zukrO bRhaspatErdvESadagRhIt sAsurOdupam harO gurusutam snEhAt sarvabhUtagaNAvRtah. 6 sarvadEvagaNOpEtO mahEndrO gurumanvayAt surAsurvinAzObhUt samarastArakAmayah. 7 bhAgavatapurANa 9.14.5-7 regards, sarma. From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Wed Dec 17 16:57:18 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 17:57:18 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya again Message-ID: <161227034454.23782.295345374700256980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:45 PM 12/17/97 +0100, Sarma writes: >As I have quoted in my earlier posting the above sentence occurs in the >viSNu purANa Edition (Gita Press, Gorakhpur) I have, as >"EvaM ca tayor atIvograsangrAmas tArAnimittas tArakAmayO nAmAbhUt" I quoted (4.6.12: tArakAnimittas tArakAmayo nAmAbhavat) from the edition with Ratnagarbhabhatta's commentary, Bombay, zaka 1811 (A.D. 1889), not claiming that this edition is better than the Gita Press edition. But it is the only one we have got here. Regards Georg v.Simson From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Wed Dec 17 15:45:28 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 18:45:28 +0300 Subject: Madhyamaka-hRdaya Message-ID: <161227034461.23782.7333089451841587313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. McClintock, thank you very much for your exhaustive information on the Sanskrit Madhyamaka-hRdaya and its study in recent years. In a week or so I hope to recieve some additional data bearing on this text, and I'll be glad to share it with you. If you don't mind, I shall use your private E-mail address. With my best regards and deep gratitude, Yours sincerely Yaroslav Vassilkov From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Dec 17 23:56:00 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 18:56:00 -0500 Subject: H-ASIA: Mellon Foreign Area Fellowship - Library of Congress -Forwarded Message-ID: <161227034467.23782.1753946972543737497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Received: from h-net.msu.edu (h-net.hst.msu.edu [35.8.2.57]) by rs8.loc.gov (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA111682; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:37:19 -0500 Received: from h-net (h-net.hst.msu.edu [35.8.2.57]) by h-net.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA37698; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:30:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199712171930.OAA37698 at h-net.msu.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:27:35 -0800 Reply-To: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture Sender: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture From: Frank Conlon Subject: H-ASIA: Mellon Foreign Area Fellowship - Library of Congress To: Multiple recipients of list H-ASIA H-ASIA December 17, 1997 Mellon Foreign Area Fellowship Competition-U.S. Library of Congress *************************************************************************** From: H-Net Announcements Editor LIBRARY OF CONGRESS - MELLON FOREIGN AREA FELLOWSHIP COMPETITION The Library of Congress is again accepting applications for its Mellon Foreign Area Fellowship Research Awards. The post-doctoral fellowships, made possible by a grant from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, were designed to support research that uses the Library's unrivalled foreign-language and area-studies collections. The Mellon Foundation grant finances three years of fellowship competitions. This will be the second year that the fellowships are offered. The deadline for submission of applications is January 15, 1998. In addition to the requirements of U.S. citizenship or permanent residency and possession of a doctoral degree, the awards are for scholars who are proposing or working on a second major research project with a focus on foreign-language materials. Fellowships may last from five to 11 months and can begin no sooner than August 1, 1998. Stipends of $3,000 per month, up to a maximum of $33,000 for 11 months, will be awarded; they may be used to extend the research period supported by other funds. The Mellon Fellowships are administered by the Office of Scholarly Programs. They were first announced in January 1997 and five awards resulted from the first competition. In addition to work on their projects, fellows will be presenting their research and sharing their insights and experiences during occasional gatherings. Application forms and further information may be obtained from the Office of Scholarly Programs, Library of Congress, Washington, DC 20540-4860; telephone (202) 707-3302; fax (202) 707-3595; email scholarly at loc.gov. Applications may be submitted by mail, fax, or e-mail. Additional information, including an application, is also available at the Library of Congress home page at http://lcweb.loc.gov. ========================================================================== From rkh22 at HERMES.CAM.AC.UK Wed Dec 17 19:30:59 1997 From: rkh22 at HERMES.CAM.AC.UK (R.K. Harding) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 19:30:59 +0000 Subject: Topography Message-ID: <161227034463.23782.11996785443213828092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working at the moment on topographical names in and around Rajgir (ancient Rajagrha/Girivraja). In B.C.Law's Rajagriha in Ancient Literature there are two lists of names for the five mountains which surround Girivraja. Both are supposed to be in the Sabhaparvan, the first in 21.2 (Bombay ed), the second 21.11. However, the second list isn't there; and according to Sorenson is not in the Mbh at all. Could anyone help me with information as to indices I might look in which are similar to Sorenson and cover other texts (e.g. Jain sutras) In case you come across the list in your reading somewhere it is: Pandara:Vipula: Varahaka: Chaityaka: Matango Regards, Robert Harding From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Wed Dec 17 18:50:02 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 19:50:02 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya again Message-ID: <161227034457.23782.10665495415917101568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:24:21, Sarma writes: >Vettam Mani does not seem to follow BhAgavatapurAnA also because it clearly >mentions that a battle has taken place, as given below. ......................(I omit parts of the quotation) >surAsurvinAzObhUt samarastArakAmayah. 7 > bhAgavatapurANa 9.14.5-7 To sum up what we up to now have arrived at: The purANas know of two tArakAmaya- battles, one fought by the gods headed by Skanda against the asuras headed by the demon TAraka, and one between the majority of the gods headed by Rudra against Soma (who is supported by Zukra and the asuras), because the latter refused to return TArA to her husband BRhaspati (who is not depicted as a participant of the battle - or am I wrong?). Which of the two stories is older, is hard to say. The Mahabharata knows more about the Skanda-TAraka story, but that does not necessarily mean that this is older. As Kirfel's investigation shows, the TArA myth may have a very ancient astral-mythological background. As to the analysis of the term tArakAmaya, a component kAma- would not fit its application (rather old, because well attested in the Mahabharata) to the Skanda-TAraka story. Moreover, the short -a- would need an extra explanation. On the other hand, Amaya, 'destruction', from A+mI, would give a meaning that fits both stories. That is why I, for the time being, prefer to keep to it. Have I forgotten any relevant argument? Regards Georg v.Simson From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 18 02:10:04 1997 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: Madhyamaka-hRdaya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034471.23782.8633755660689388396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A further reference on MadhyamakahRdaya: Chr. Lindtner, Bhavya's MadhyamakahRdaya / (Pariccheda Five) / YogAcAratattvaviniZcayAvatAra. The Adyar Library Bulletin volume 95 (1995), pages. 37-65. This consists of an edition of the Sanskrit verse text with introduction, notes and verse index. Prof. Lindtner used "excellent" photographs provided by Prof. Jiang Zhongxin. The Chinese photographs are reported to be greatly superior to the earlier available photographs by or available to Prof. Tucci. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 18 02:15:17 1997 From: chibbard at POBOX.UPENN.EDU (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 21:15:17 -0500 Subject: Madhyamaka-hRdaya In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971215125507.00711650@pop-server.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227034473.23782.17052168961378523919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction to reference: Chr. Lindtner, Bhavya's MadhyamakahRdaya / (Pariccheda Five) / YogAcAratattvaviniZcayAvatAra. The Adyar Library Bulletin volume 59 (1995), pages. 37-65. I intended to type volume 59, but reversed the digits. Sorry. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Wed Dec 17 18:44:27 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 21:44:27 +0300 Subject: tArA, tArakA, tAraka Message-ID: <161227034459.23782.4398154629614679531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dec. 13 Dominique Thillaud wrote: >PS: from a time, there is no more criticism about the original form >tAra-kAmayoH (in tArA's context). Are Prs.Yaroslav Vassilkov and Georg vo= >n >Simson convinced ? No, I am not. I shall not repeat all the arguments against it so convincingly and logically formulated by Georg von Simson. I am inclined to think that the epithet arose out of combination *tAraka+Amaya* and belonged originally to asura tAraka's myth. As you have demonstrated, it was widely used as a part of the formula *samgrAmas tArakAmayaH*. Due to its formulaic convenience and to its consonance with the name tArA, it was eventually used in the context of the "battle for tArA" myth. A Puranic example referred to in the last contribution by D.V.N.Sarma - I mean the verse where nakSatras and stars take part in the battle - may represent an intermediate stage of reinterpretation when *tArakAmaya* was understood as "disastrous/fatal/ destructive FOR THE STARS". At the next stage the formulaic epithet was reinterpreted as "caused by tArakA=tArA". I don't think that this identification was done by the compilers of dictionaries. Most probably, it goes back to traditional Indian commentaries. And they, in their turn, more or less faithfully reproduce the opinions popular in the latest period of the Epics' and PurANas' transmission. By the way, it opens, as it seems, a new perspective in our discussion. Why should not we look and see what the traditional commentators have to say on the "tArA/tArakA" problem? As far as the MahAbhArata is concerned, I am going to consult nIlakaNTha at first opportunity. Best wishes to all participants and list members, Yaroslav Vassilkov. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 18 00:08:04 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 00:08:04 +0000 Subject: tArakAmaya again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034469.23782.16226483886139300625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:50 PM 12/17/97 +0100, George V. Simson writes: > Have I forgotten any relevant argument? Yes. Your attempt to read tArakA=tArA based on the reading of `tArakAnimittas' in the edition of viSNu purANa available to you is unreliable because the reading occurs in a prose passage and the commentator could have altered the reading in order to explain the word `tArakAmaya'. He must have got into the dilemma in which we are now. In the metrical passages we have only tArA everywhere as I have pointed out in my earlier postings. So I think for the present tArakA=tArA identification is unreliable. You have also forgotten the explanation of the word `tArakAmaya' as `full of stars' based on the matsya purANa reading. It is not everyday that stars take part in the battles as they did in this. This participation might have been commemorated by naming the battle as `tArakAmaya'. At 09:44 PM 12/17/97 +0300, Yaroslav Vassilkov writes: >A Puranic example referred to >in the last contribution by D.V.N.Sarma - I mean the verse where nakSatras >and stars take part in the battle - may represent an intermediate stage of >reinterpretation when *tArakAmaya* was understood as "disastrous/fatal/ >destructive FOR THE STARS". The war was not distructive to the stars. The purANAs do not say that. It was distrucive only to the daityAs and devAs. The interpretation of `tArakAmaya'as tArakA+Amaya i.e., distructive to the stars, does not seem to be possible. Anyway we know that they are still there in the heavens we see them everyday. regards, sarma. From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Dec 18 15:26:22 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 09:26:22 -0600 Subject: Q. avattam Message-ID: <161227034481.23782.4796242847071427901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q. avattam ********** I looked in the University of Koeln - IITS web site for the Tamil word, "avattam". Its meaning is "evil, calamity". I need a textual occurence of "avattam" where this word has the abovesaid meaning. Can someone look it up in Madras university Tamil Lexicon and give a sentence from a relevent reference? Thanks, N. Ganesan From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Dec 17 22:28:33 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 09:28:33 +1100 Subject: Topography Message-ID: <161227034465.23782.4227233229927638720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For place names in Jain texts a very good place to start is the two volume: Prakrit proper names / compiled by Mohanlal Mehta and K. Rishabh Chandra : edited by Dalsukh Malvania. Ahmedabad : LD Institute of Indology, 1970-72. (Still in print and available from the Institute or booksellers in India.) This was prepared on a similar plan to the dictionary of Pali proper names (which might also be worth a look), I just looked up Vipula as a sample: "A mountain situated near Rayagiha. Titthayara Mahavira's disciples Khamdaa and Mehakumara performed Sallekhana and Mamkai Kimkamma, Kasava etc. attained emancipation on this mountain." Then follow the five references to older Jain texts for this entry ... Royce Wiles >I am working at the moment on topographical names in and around Rajgir >(ancient Rajagrha/Girivraja). In B.C.Law's Rajagriha in Ancient >Literature there are two lists of names for the five mountains which >surround Girivraja. Both are supposed to be in the Sabhaparvan, the first >in 21.2 (Bombay ed), the second 21.11. However, the second list isn't >there; and according to Sorenson is not in the Mbh at all. Could anyone >help me with information as to indices I might look in which are >similar to Sorenson and cover other texts (e.g. Jain sutras) > >In case you come across the list in your reading somewhere it is: >Pandara:Vipula: Varahaka: Chaityaka: Matango > >Regards, > >Robert Harding From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Dec 18 09:51:31 1997 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 09:51:31 +0000 Subject: Topography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034475.23782.16593363794589177639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, R.K. Harding wrote: > I am working at the moment on topographical names in and around Rajgir > (ancient Rajagrha/Girivraja). In B.C.Law's Rajagriha in Ancient > Literature there are two lists of names for the five mountains which > surround Girivraja. Both are supposed to be in the Sabhaparvan, the first > in 21.2 (Bombay ed), the second 21.11. However, the second list isn't > there; and according to Sorenson is not in the Mbh at all. Could anyone > help me with information as to indices I might look in which are > similar to Sorenson and cover other texts (e.g. Jain sutras) > > In case you come across the list in your reading somewhere it is: > Pandara:Vipula: Varahaka: Chaityaka: Matango This list appears in the Southern Recension MSS only: Crit. Ed. p. 104, asterisked passage 206. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 18 15:57:10 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 10:57:10 -0500 Subject: Albrecht Weber etc. offprints Message-ID: <161227034484.23782.13456738505352854609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been sorting out the papers of Albrecht Weber, whose library the Library of Congress bought from his widow early in the century. I am discarding duplicate offprints of his articles and some of other indologists of his time. If any library with an exchange relationship with LC wants the whole shebang I would be glad to send them, unsorted. None of them are in really good shape but they range from usable and maybe even bindable to extremely fragile. The more interesting part of his papers are the mss of his books and the Indian mss from which he worked, and a correspondence file on the World Conference of Orientalists. He had correspondence about particular works bound into the works, or laid them in, but he did not habitually keep all his correspondence, or if he did his heirs and executors discarded it. The Library is gradually finishing giving rare book cataloging to all of the books in his library in which we have found significant annotations or bound in material. Allen Thrasher From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 18 16:07:32 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 11:07:32 -0500 Subject: Favor needed: Dead phone Message-ID: <161227034486.23782.14602232209340525350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am the team leader for automation and telephones in my division. We need to know by testing which of our telephones are set up to make overseas long distance calls. Would someone on the list in Europe (the Continent or Great Britain), please convey to me - off the list - a telephone number in his institution which does not have an answering machine or audix and which will not have anyone around it to answer when the institution is closed? That way I can see if the phones call overseas without my institution being billed and without wasting your people's time picking up the phone or listening to audix messages. If you can provide this, please also tell me the hours the phone will or will not be attended. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 18 11:41:03 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 11:41:03 +0000 Subject: Topography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034477.23782.12442205575385399639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:30 PM 12/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >I am working at the moment on topographical names in and around Rajgir >(ancient Rajagrha/Girivraja). In B.C.Law's Rajagriha in Ancient >Literature there are two lists of names for the five mountains which >surround Girivraja. Both are supposed to be in the Sabhaparvan, the first >in 21.2 (Bombay ed), the second 21.11. However, the second list isn't >there; and according to Sorenson is not in the Mbh at all. Could anyone >help me with information as to indices I might look in which are >similar to Sorenson and cover other texts (e.g. Jain sutras) > >In case you come across the list in your reading somewhere it is: >Pandara:Vipula: Varahaka: Chaityaka: Matango > >Regards, > >Robert Harding > > srImanmahAbhAratam,(mUla mAtram, tasya prathamO bhAgah),Gita Press, Gorakhpur In sabhA parvA vaihArO vipulah sailO varAhO vRSabhas tathA tathA rSigiris tAta zubhAzcaityakapaJcamAh. 21.2 Between 21.10 and 21.11 there are these in brackets ( perhaps indicating as prakSipta.) pANDarE vipulE caiva thathA vArAhakE~pi ca caityakE ca girizrESTE mAtaGgE ca zilOccayE EtESu parvatEndrESu sarvasiddhamahAlayAh yatInAmAzramAccaiva munInAm ca mahAtmnAm vRSabhsya tamAlasya mahAvIryasya vai tathA gandharvarakSasAm caiva nAgAnAm ca tathAlayAh regards, sarma. From vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Thu Dec 18 17:58:26 1997 From: vasu at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 12:58:26 -0500 Subject: Q. avattam Message-ID: <161227034489.23782.7788905297795070655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > For the meaning requested the Madras Tamil Lexicon has the following > entrance: > > avattam2, n. prob ava-sthaa. Evil, calamity; keeTu. avatta.nkaL > viLaiyum (tiv. tiruvaay. 10, 3, 9). > > I guess the reference is maNavALamAmun_ikaL, tiruvAymol_i nURRantAti, > cen_n_ai: kaNEca accukkUTam, 1920. > The reference is to Nammalvar's Tiruvaymoli 10.3.9: ...akappaTil avarOTum ninnoTu AnkE avattankaL viLaiyum The general meaning of avattam here is "awful things" will come to pass. For a full translation of this set of verses and Pillan's (11th century) manipravala commentary see my book (co authored with John Carman): The Tamil Veda: Pillan's interpretation of the Tiruvaymoli (Univ. of Chicago press, 1989). Vasudha Narayanan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Dec 18 19:34:12 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 13:34:12 -0600 Subject: avattam Message-ID: <161227034493.23782.16235543476790036045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Mr. Schuettler Thanks, Prof. Vasudha. I enjoyed your translation of Nammalavar's Paasuram. N. Ganesan From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Thu Dec 18 19:49:50 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 13:49:50 -0600 Subject: Q. Elephant ride Message-ID: <161227034494.23782.15536863193673710104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q. Elephant ride. ****************** "People use the trunk of an elephant to get on to the top of it and shout "Lies, untruths" and go on a parade in the streets." In old India, was there a habit like this? Any pointers where it occurred? May be against some philosophical sects these people shouted. Once people win in some religious debates, they exclaim that the other side is not true? Any textual references in Sanskrit or any other?! Thanks, N. Ganesan In a section on different types of jobs people do in an old tamil text, this line is present: ", vaarmatatta pOtakattin kaipppukkup poypoy enappukanRu vItiyilkoN TOTuvatum, " From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 18 19:06:21 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 14:06:21 -0500 Subject: Garudopanisad Message-ID: <161227034491.23782.917169804591896784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Was someone asking about the Garudopanisad a few weeks ago? I can't find any such searching on the archive, but seem to recall an exchange on it. Anyhow, if anyone was, an ed. by Albrecht Weber can be found in his Indische Studien, 17, p. 161-167. It was among the offprints I was sorting out. Also, I can provide a photocopy easily. Please contact me directly not on the list. Allen Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Thu Dec 18 22:32:43 1997 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 14:32:43 -0800 Subject: tArakAmaya Message-ID: <161227034496.23782.13474899254471807902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members I have been following the correspondance on tArakAmaya. It seems to me that the answer to the question of its meaning is quite simple. We have here a clear case of the use of the suffix mayaT as marked by PANini "mayaT ca" in the sense of "hetuvAcakAdAgataH". Thus tArA is tArakA plus mayaT. It qualifies samaraH. Meaning there was a battle for the sake of tArA. I hope this is of some use for the people who posed the question. Rasik Vihari Joshi. From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Dec 18 15:47:05 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 15:47:05 +0000 Subject: tArakAmaya again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034482.23782.6209121795925349119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:03 PM 12/18/97 +0100, you wrote: > On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:08:04, D. V. NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > >Your attempt to read tArakA=tArA based on the reading of >>`tArakAnimittas' in the edition of viSNu purANa available to you >>is unreliable because the reading occurs in a prose passage and >>the commentator could have altered the reading in order to explain >>the word `tArakAmaya'. He must have got into the dilemma in which >>we are now. In the metrical passages we have only tArA everywhere >>as I have pointed out in my earlier postings. So I think for >>the present tArakA=tArA identification is unreliable. > >Since both tArakA and tArA as appellativum mean 'star', I think their >separation is a bit artificial. As you know, in sanskrit proper names are >easily substituted by their synonyms. > >>You have also forgotten the explanation of the word `tArakAmaya' >>as `full of stars' based on the matsya purANa reading. It is not >>everyday that stars take part in the battles as they did in this. >>This participation might have been commemorated by naming the >>battle as `tArakAmaya'. > >I agree that some purANa authors might have understood the term this way. >But is it not more probable that the expression originally was coined >because the main person in one story was called TAraka and in the other >TArA (to which TArakA could be taken as a synonym)? In this case, the term >can only be interpreted as tAraka+Amaya if referring to the TAraka-Skanda >story, because otherwise the long -a- in the third syllable would not be >accounted for. But, if you prefer, you can, of course, also in this case >stick to tArakA-maya, `full of stars': I am convinced that this story, too, >is an ancient star myth. What I primarily wanted to exclude was the >assumption that the term originated from a combination of tArA and kAma >which seems impossible to me. The one varia lectio in Mbh. (tArakAmayoH) I >would consider as the fanciful idea of a late scribe. > >>At 09:44 PM 12/17/97 +0300, Yaroslav Vassilkov writes: >>>A Puranic example referred to >>>in the last contribution by D.V.N.Sarma - I mean the verse where nakSatras >>>and stars take part in the battle - may represent an intermediate stage of >>>reinterpretation when *tArakAmaya* was understood as "disastrous/fatal/ >>>destructive FOR THE STARS". > >>The war was not distructive to the stars. The purANAs do not say that. >>It was distrucive only to the daityAs and devAs. The interpretation of >>`tArakAmaya'as tArakA+Amaya i.e., distructive to the stars, does not >>seem to be possible. Anyway we know that they are still there in the >>heavens we see them everyday. > >The first part of the compound could be understood with instrumental >function: 'disastrous through/because of the stars, or, rather: because of >TArakA=TArA=(the goddess) Star'. In the case of the TAraka-Skanda story, >the meaning could, of course, be 'resulting in the destruction of TAraka', >and I am still inclined to believe that this was the origin of the term and >that the development went as outlined by Ya. Vassilkov. > >Best wishes > > Georg v.Simson > > When a simple explanation `tArakamayah=full of stars' explains every thing and it has the puranic sanction why should we invoke far fetched explanations. When the word tArakA in the samAsa means simple `star' and not tArA the person why should we try to give tArA the name of tArakA which does not occur anywhere else except in the prose portion of the edition you have and which could be a wrong reading. I feel this discussion has gone far enough and as far as I am concerned the explanation `tArakamayah=full of stars' seems to be alright. regards, sarma. From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Dec 18 20:58:00 1997 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 16:58:00 -0400 Subject: Delocutives Message-ID: <161227034498.23782.11839497412771608040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Jacob's recent post: > [snip] > >It seems in Fr. any utterance can be thought of as an invariable noun when >used meta-linguistically as the name of the action of uttering it: >"Il commence a m'enerver avec ses je le ferai plus tard" (Doesn't that work >in English: "He's getting on my nerves with his I'll do it later"?) A very good point, and an interesting one. And most of these 'invariable nouns' will be nonce-formations which native speakers will not recognize as legitimate 'words' [see Jonathan's scepticism, for example]. But my Sanskrit examples have been recognized as such within their own speech-communities. Consider, just for one example, the *long* history of the term 'ahaMkAra' in classical Indian philosophy. This suggests that these Skt. forms have more cultural significance than do the typical nonce-formations of English or French, which serve the moment and then are discarded. >> [snip] > >_If_ in Sanskrit you can, like in French, consider the 1st member of those >kr compounds to stand for the name of the action of uttering it (thus one >could analyze "tvam" in tvamkR as "the _action_ of uttering tvam") then >you don't need any special meaning of kR, kR in its usual meaning of "perform" >seems to work doesn't it? So, is it sensible to analyze it this (my) way? Another good point. I agree that, by itself, this delocutive use of the verb kR- might not suggest a secondary meaning "to say". But there are other factors. Of course among the grammarians the form -kAra is used to mark a phoneme, so that 'akAra' = 'the phoneme "a"', 'kakAra' = 'the phoneme "k"', etc. There are also cases where the verb kR- alternates paradigmatically with verba dicendi like vad- and vac-: e.g., see collocations of these verbs with mantra, or in compounds [mantrakRt vs. mantravAdin], or with satya [or in compounds: satyakriyA vs.satyavAda]. I'm not suggesting that these forms are delocutive, of course. Just that kR- appears in these contexts to look *a lot* like a verbum dicendi. The use of the verb kR- in delocutive expressions simply strengthens the semantic link with verba dicendi which is evident elsewhere. >Can >one say that in the Vedic example "vaSaT" is the "accusatif" of an invariable >noun which designates the action of uttering "vaSaT"? Of course things >would be different in composition with verbs meaning say, utter, cf >an example mentioned by Dominique, bhoovaadin. What is its precise meaning? >Also I'd be curious if bhooH can also enter in composition with kR as say >"bhooHkarooti"? I guess that would depend on "bhooH" having an affective >content, e.g. the "gurum tvamkarya" of Martin's examples implies a show of >disrespect or familiarity. Since "bhooH" seems pretty neutral I wouldn't >expect it to have a transitive kR compound but let me ask anyway. 'bhoH' is the form of address that one should use when addressing superiors like one's guru. 'bhoH' is not an early term. It is an abbreviated *vocative* form of bhavAn, 'your honor' [possibly this itself is also an abbreviated form of bhagavAn]. In fact it is attested in compounds with both -kAra and -vAdin, but since I am not familiar with the relevant passages, I cannot say what the precise significance of these terms is. But if you want to get a better understanding of this term check out Manu DZ again [2.122ff.], where conventions of direct address are discussed. You will find there an interesting range of forms [Skt text available from Indology Archives, thanks to M.YANO and Y.IKARI]. I'll send more later. This post is already too long. Jacob, I'll try to answer the rest of your questions shortly. George From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Thu Dec 18 16:03:03 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 17:03:03 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya again Message-ID: <161227034479.23782.3889836737107756985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:08:04, D. V. NARAYANA SARMA wrote: >Your attempt to read tArakA=tArA based on the reading of >`tArakAnimittas' in the edition of viSNu purANa available to you >is unreliable because the reading occurs in a prose passage and >the commentator could have altered the reading in order to explain >the word `tArakAmaya'. He must have got into the dilemma in which >we are now. In the metrical passages we have only tArA everywhere >as I have pointed out in my earlier postings. So I think for >the present tArakA=tArA identification is unreliable. Since both tArakA and tArA as appellativum mean 'star', I think their separation is a bit artificial. As you know, in sanskrit proper names are easily substituted by their synonyms. >You have also forgotten the explanation of the word `tArakAmaya' >as `full of stars' based on the matsya purANa reading. It is not >everyday that stars take part in the battles as they did in this. >This participation might have been commemorated by naming the >battle as `tArakAmaya'. I agree that some purANa authors might have understood the term this way. But is it not more probable that the expression originally was coined because the main person in one story was called TAraka and in the other TArA (to which TArakA could be taken as a synonym)? In this case, the term can only be interpreted as tAraka+Amaya if referring to the TAraka-Skanda story, because otherwise the long -a- in the third syllable would not be accounted for. But, if you prefer, you can, of course, also in this case stick to tArakA-maya, `full of stars': I am convinced that this story, too, is an ancient star myth. What I primarily wanted to exclude was the assumption that the term originated from a combination of tArA and kAma which seems impossible to me. The one varia lectio in Mbh. (tArakAmayoH) I would consider as the fanciful idea of a late scribe. >At 09:44 PM 12/17/97 +0300, Yaroslav Vassilkov writes: >>A Puranic example referred to >>in the last contribution by D.V.N.Sarma - I mean the verse where nakSatras >>and stars take part in the battle - may represent an intermediate stage of >>reinterpretation when *tArakAmaya* was understood as "disastrous/fatal/ >>destructive FOR THE STARS". >The war was not distructive to the stars. The purANAs do not say that. >It was distrucive only to the daityAs and devAs. The interpretation of >`tArakAmaya'as tArakA+Amaya i.e., distructive to the stars, does not >seem to be possible. Anyway we know that they are still there in the >heavens we see them everyday. The first part of the compound could be understood with instrumental function: 'disastrous through/because of the stars, or, rather: because of TArakA=TArA=(the goddess) Star'. In the case of the TAraka-Skanda story, the meaning could, of course, be 'resulting in the destruction of TAraka', and I am still inclined to believe that this was the origin of the term and that the development went as outlined by Ya. Vassilkov. Best wishes Georg v.Simson From Andreas.Schuettler at UNI-KOELN.DE Thu Dec 18 17:29:44 1997 From: Andreas.Schuettler at UNI-KOELN.DE (Andreas Schuettler) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 18:29:44 +0100 Subject: Q. avattam In-Reply-To: <01IRBBU62RK2005DAL@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227034487.23782.6535968954036710810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, N. Ganesan wrote: > Q. avattam > ********** > > I looked in the University of Koeln - IITS web site for the > Tamil word, "avattam". Its meaning is "evil, calamity". > > I need a textual occurence of "avattam" where this word has > the abovesaid meaning. > > Can someone look it up in Madras university Tamil Lexicon > and give a sentence from a relevent reference? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > For the meaning requested the Madras Tamil Lexicon has the following entrance: avattam2, n. prob ava-sthaa. Evil, calamity; keeTu. avatta.nkaL viLaiyum (tiv. tiruvaay. 10, 3, 9). I guess the reference is maNavALamAmun_ikaL, tiruvAymol_i nURRantAti, cen_n_ai: kaNEca accukkUTam, 1920. Hope that is helpful All the best Andreas Schuettler, IITS, University Koeln, Germany From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 19 05:35:11 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 05:35:11 +0000 Subject: Q. avattam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034499.23782.4333394648172408339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:29 PM 12/18/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, N. Ganesan wrote: > >> Q. avattam >> ********** >> >> I looked in the University of Koeln - IITS web site for the >> Tamil word, "avattam". Its meaning is "evil, calamity". >> >> I need a textual occurence of "avattam" where this word has >> the abovesaid meaning. >> >> Can someone look it up in Madras university Tamil Lexicon >> and give a sentence from a relevent reference? >> >> Thanks, >> N. Ganesan >> > > For the meaning requested the Madras Tamil Lexicon has the following > entrance: > > avattam2, n. prob ava-sthaa. Evil, calamity; keeTu. avatta.nkaL > viLaiyum (tiv. tiruvaay. 10, 3, 9). > > I guess the reference is maNavALamAmun_ikaL, tiruvAymol_i nURRantAti, > cen_n_ai: kaNEca accukkUTam, 1920. > > Hope that is helpful > > All the best > > Andreas Schuettler, IITS, University Koeln, Germany > > The relation of avattam to skt. avastha, I think, is correct. In telugu 'vAdu cAlA/nAnA avasthalu paDDADu' means "He has undergone many/ various type of difficulties/dire straits". One of the meanings of upasarga 'ava' is low or down. 'avastha' means being low or down. A man in difficulties is low or down. regards, sarma. From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 19 15:18:49 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 10:18:49 -0500 Subject: Dead phone thanks Message-ID: <161227034503.23782.5555100013340568226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Gabriele Zeller and Harry Falk who have provided me with phone numbers as requested. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 19 15:30:15 1997 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 10:30:15 -0500 Subject: Albrecht Weber etc. offprints : clarification Message-ID: <161227034505.23782.10589570572445596983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone thought my message offering offprints of Weber's papers did not make it clear what was offered was duplicate copies of offprints of published papers. We are retaining first copies, usually in the form of the bound vols. of the serial or Weber's own bound collections of offprints and other pamphlets. We are retaining any copies of offprints that have significant annotations by Weber. We are even retaining his galley proofs. All of these will get some form of cataloging. We have treated the whole collection with extreme respect and don't want to sound like we were giving away _manuscripts_ of his papers or anything else unique. Susan McMahon of Berkeley and Harry Falk of Berlin have put in first and second dibs on the duplicate offprints. Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D, Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division LJ150 Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 19 16:40:15 1997 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (Sn. Subrahmanya) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 10:40:15 -0600 Subject: tArakAmaya Message-ID: <161227034510.23782.8453318377215613080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:11 PM 12/19/97 +0100, you wrote: >>On the other hand, -maya has normally the meaning *consisting of*, Doesnt it mean "enveloped by" "immersed in" Subrahmanya From Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE Fri Dec 19 10:30:59 1997 From: Velu at RELHIST.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 11:30:59 +0100 Subject: Q. avattam Message-ID: <161227034501.23782.3395117561089362914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> avattam in the sense you mean is found as avattankaL viLaiyum in Tivviya - Tiruv y- 10, 3, 9. It could be a derivative from Skt. a-baddha and in that case mean 1. Nonsense, falsehood. 2. That which is useless, vain. A.Veluppillai From GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU Fri Dec 19 17:42:21 1997 From: GANESANS at CL.UH.EDU (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 11:42:21 -0600 Subject: Q. kOtAri, pazu, vAytAri/vAytArai Message-ID: <161227034511.23782.12992766118494410912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q. kOtAri, vAytAri/vAytArai, pazu ********************************** Again, I need some help in literary citations of three words from Madras university Tamil Lexicon. 1) kOtAri - epidemic, pestilential disease - koLLai nOy, peruvAri nOy, vishak kAyccal 2) pazu - round of a ladder, rib - ENip paTi 3) vAytAri/vAytArai - humming, talk musically meTTu, tana-tana ennum cantam Thanks a bunch, N. Ganesan PS: In JayamkoNTaar's aatinaatan vaLamaTal that I am editing these words occur. pazu, not in the usual meaning of 'to ripen', but as a ladder step. kuLam, not the regular pond, but as forehead (neRRi) (kallATam also has that usage: tirukkuLam muLaitta kaN tAmarai, The eye-lotus on the forehead(kuLam) of Shiva). >?From the context, avattam means "kETu, calamity" rather than falsehood, waste, in vain etc., For that, nammAzvAr's usage "avattaGkaL viLaiyum" is great. From g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO Fri Dec 19 16:11:18 1997 From: g.v.simson at EASTEUR-ORIENT.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 17:11:18 +0100 Subject: tArakAmaya Message-ID: <161227034508.23782.17469306858554270131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:32:43, Rasik Vihari Joshi wrote: >I have been following the correspondance on tArakAmaya. It >seems to me that the answer to the question of its meaning is >quite simple. We have here a clear case of the use of the >suffix mayaT as marked by PANini "mayaT ca" in the sense of >"hetuvAcakAdAgataH". Thus tArA is tArakA plus mayaT. It >qualifies samaraH. Meaning there was a battle for the sake of >tArA. >I hope this is of some use for the people who posed the question. That is a very interesting suggestion indeed (PANini4.3.74: tata AgataH, plus 4.3.81: hetumanuSyebhyo 'nyatarasyAM rUpyaH, plus 4.3.82: mayaT ca)! But then, in order to include the Skanda-TAraka myth, we should not translate *(a battle) for the sake of tArA*, but *(a battle) caused by a star (or: by stars) (tArakA)*. On the other hand, -maya has normally the meaning *consisting of*, and hetu might just mean *material cause*. The grammarians give as examples Devadatta-maya and VAyudatta-maya to account for -manuSyebhyo in P. 4.3.81, but what does that really mean? I found BhImasenamaya in MahAbhArata 5.50.25 and 11.11.14, but here the meaning is nothing but *consisting of BhImasena* (in a simile). Can you (or anyone else) give an example from the literature for the actual use of -maya in the sense *for the sake of* or *caused by*? Otherwise I would still think that Amaya was originally intended, especially since Ya. Vassilkov (thank you for your elucidating message which arrived just now when I was writing this!) now found this interpretation attested with NIlakaNTha. Best wishes Georg v.Simson Professor Georg von Simson University of Oslo Department of East European and Oriental Studies Box 1030, Blindern 0315 Oslo, Norway From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 19 17:42:00 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 17:42:00 +0000 Subject: tArakAmaya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227034513.23782.3711058102637904899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:27 PM 12/19/97 +0300, you wrote: >>From yavass Fri Dec 19 16:47:51 MSK 1997 >Dear colleagues, > here is what NIlakaNTha has to say on the problem of tArA=tArakA. > >Mbh, Crit.ed. III.166.24 = Bomb. ed. III. 169.24: munis sing praise to Arjuna >with sweet voices, like they praised Indra tArakAmaye. > nIkakaNTHa comments: tArakAmaye tArArthe saMgrAme // > >Mbh, Crit.ed. II.22.16 = Bomb.ed. II.24.17: kRSNa is said to drive the chariot >which had been previously used by zakra and viSNu in the tArakAmaya [battle] >("tArakAmaye"). > N.'s commentary: tArakAmaye tArakA tArA bRhaspatibhAryA >sai'va Amayavat vinAzahetur yasmin Amayo rogaH // > > This leaves, I think, no doubt that in the eyes of Mbh's most popular >commentator, tArA and tArakA were synonims (as two names of the wife of >bRhaspati) and that he considered the epithet tArakAmaya to consist of >tArakA + Amaya. > > Our discussion was long and very useful, at least for me. Is not it >now the high time to stop and to realize that there is no simple, one-syllable >answer to the question "Are the names tArA and tArakA synonimous, or not?". >The answer to it is complex. I would say that everyone of us is right in >one's own way. D.V.N.Sarma demonstrated that the separate name of the Goddess >is always tArA, and the form tArakA is always used only as a part of the >compound. It was a strange fact which needed an explanation. Eventually this >led us (first of all, Georg von Simson and me) to the conclusion that the >epithet had been borrowed and transferred to the story of tArA from another >myth. So, we partly agree with D.V.N.Sarma, accepting that tArA and tAraka >(in "tArakAmaya") ORIGINALLY WERE NOT SYNONIMOUS. Most of the Mbh passages >containing the word "tArakAmaya" (if not all of them) originally referred >(in spite of nIlakaNTHa's interpretations) to the myth of the battle with >asura tAraka. But in the late period of Epic's and PurANas' growth singers >or compilers started to use the epithet tArakAmaya in association with >tArA's name. Now tArA and tArakA WERE understood as SYNONIMS. >This is evidenced by the VP passage where tArakAmaya is explained >as "tArA-" or "tArakAnimitta", and by the above-quoted nIlakaNTHa's comments. >As you can see, it was not easy for nIlakaNTHa to explain the meaning of >"tArakAmaya"; after all, it still remained a "borrowed plume", a constant >epithet misplaced. > And then, in the same late period, when the original meaning of the >compound was long forgotten and the reinterpretation did not seem >convincing for everyone, somebody suggested a new one: tArakAmayoH. I was >particularly impressed by the fact that first D.V.N.Sarma had suggested the >existence of such form theoretically, and then Dominique Thillaud had found >this very reading in the Critical edition apparatus. There were surely some >people in Ancient and Mediaeval India, who understood the meaning of the word >this way too. > So, by our joint effort we managed to reconstruct the history of the >epithet, to elucidate different, historically heterogeneous aspects of its >meaning. Truth is always a complex thing, not simply "It is so, and it ever >was so". > With my best wishes to the participants and all listmembers > Yaroslav V, Vassilkov > > Thank you for all the nice things you have said about me. I hope you will excuse me if I am not prepared to accept a laboured explanation ( in your own words a "barrowed plume") in place of a simple one. regards, sarma. From yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU Fri Dec 19 15:27:02 1997 From: yavass at YAVASS.USR.PU.RU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 18:27:02 +0300 Subject: tArakAmaya Message-ID: <161227034506.23782.13646756757726803709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Fri Dec 19 16:47:51 MSK 1997 Dear colleagues, here is what NIlakaNTha has to say on the problem of tArA=tArakA. Mbh, Crit.ed. III.166.24 = Bomb. ed. III. 169.24: munis sing praise to Arjuna with sweet voices, like they praised Indra tArakAmaye. nIkakaNTHa comments: tArakAmaye tArArthe saMgrAme // Mbh, Crit.ed. II.22.16 = Bomb.ed. II.24.17: kRSNa is said to drive the chariot which had been previously used by zakra and viSNu in the tArakAmaya [battle] ("tArakAmaye"). N.'s commentary: tArakAmaye tArakA tArA bRhaspatibhAryA sai'va Amayavat vinAzahetur yasmin Amayo rogaH // This leaves, I think, no doubt that in the eyes of Mbh's most popular commentator, tArA and tArakA were synonims (as two names of the wife of bRhaspati) and that he considered the epithet tArakAmaya to consist of tArakA + Amaya. Our discussion was long and very useful, at least for me. Is not it now the high time to stop and to realize that there is no simple, one-syllable answer to the question "Are the names tArA and tArakA synonimous, or not?". The answer to it is complex. I would say that everyone of us is right in one's own way. D.V.N.Sarma demonstrated that the separate name of the Goddess is always tArA, and the form tArakA is always used only as a part of the compound. It was a strange fact which needed an explanation. Eventually this led us (first of all, Georg von Simson and me) to the conclusion that the epithet had been borrowed and transferred to the story of tArA from another myth. So, we partly agree with D.V.N.Sarma, accepting that tArA and tAraka (in "tArakAmaya") ORIGINALLY WERE NOT SYNONIMOUS. Most of the Mbh passages containing the word "tArakAmaya" (if not all of them) originally referred (in spite of nIlakaNTHa's interpretations) to the myth of the battle with asura tAraka. But in the late period of Epic's and PurANas' growth singers or compilers started to use the epithet tArakAmaya in association with tArA's name. Now tArA and tArakA WERE understood as SYNONIMS. This is evidenced by the VP passage where tArakAmaya is explained as "tArA-" or "tArakAnimitta", and by the above-quoted nIlakaNTHa's comments. As you can see, it was not easy for nIlakaNTHa to explain the meaning of "tArakAmaya"; after all, it still remained a "borrowed plume", a constant epithet misplaced. And then, in the same late period, when the original meaning of the compound was long forgotten and the reinterpretation did not seem convincing for everyone, somebody suggested a new one: tArakAmayoH. I was particularly impressed by the fact that first D.V.N.Sarma had suggested the existence of such form theoretically, and then Dominique Thillaud had found this very reading in the Critical edition apparatus. There were surely some people in Ancient and Mediaeval India, who understood the meaning of the word this way too. So, by our joint effort we managed to reconstruct the history of the epithet, to elucidate different, historically heterogeneous aspects of its meaning. Truth is always a complex thing, not simply "It is so, and it ever was so". With my best wishes to the participants and all listmembers Yaroslav V, Vassilkov From thillaud at UNICE.FR Fri Dec 19 18:52:39 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 19:52:39 +0100 Subject: Q. Elephant ride In-Reply-To: <01IRBL1RSZDE005KEH@cl.uh.edu> Message-ID: <161227034522.23782.3345669144208911298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Q. Elephant ride. > ****************** > >"People use the trunk of an elephant to get on to the top of it >and shout "Lies, untruths" and go on a parade in the streets." > >In old India, was there a habit like this? Any pointers >where it occurred? May be against some philosophical sects >these people shouted. Once people win in some religious debates, >they exclaim that the other side is not true? Any >textual references in Sanskrit or any other?! Just a remark. The most famous lie in the MBh (about the death of azvatthAman) concern indirectly an elephant. The context is apparently different, but ... that was really a 'religious debate' to obtain the death of droNa, brahman and guru! Linked ? Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From jcvdfans at GEOCITIES.COM Sun Dec 21 03:11:33 1997 From: jcvdfans at GEOCITIES.COM (Fernando) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 97 19:11:33 -0800 Subject: First Manuscripts dates Message-ID: <161227034518.23782.16687377676705882139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi to all! I?m working on a project at university and need the aproximate year of creation of the oldest manuscripts found on these sacred scriptures: Mahabharata Ramayana Rg Veda Jayur Veda Atharva Veda Sama Veda Vedanta Sutra Bhagavata Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam) Samkhia of Kapila I would really thank you if additional information is added, such as script used (brahmi, kharoshti, devanagari, etc.), materials used (palm leave, paper, wood, copper, etc.) and place of discovery. I?d be looking forward to any contribution on this topic. Fernando Ruiz Buenos Aires, Argentina jcvdfans at geocities.com . __.----. __.----. __.----. __.----.___ (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' ;--` `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' | ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( | (o o) (o o) (o o) (o o) / `--'\_ (__).`--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ _(__)| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `||~|| /\|| ^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^ __.----. __.----. __.----. __.----.___ (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' ;--` `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' `(oo)' | ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( | (o o) (o o) (o o) (o o) / `--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ (__).`--'\_ (__).`--'\_ _(__)| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `||~|| /\|| ^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^ .,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., (o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o)(o) : Aquel que mata una vaca es digno de recibir cruel muerte; : : y aquel que a este matase, digno de toda alabanza : : : : (o)(o)(o) : : : : He who kills a cow is worthy a cruel death; : : and he who this one would kill, worthy all praise : : : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Dec 20 19:47:29 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 97 20:47:29 +0100 Subject: Breaking down lines? Message-ID: <161227034515.23782.14108972783120983174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let's say you have two lines written in Nagari as: pazupatirapitaanyahaanikRcchraadagamayadadrisutaasamaagamootkah kamaparamavazaMnaviprakuryurvibhumapitaMyadamiispRzantibhaavaah In translitteration or in Nagari in certain textbooks for beginners (abusing the viraama in the process) they would be written as: pazupatir api taany ahaani kRcchraad agamayad adrisutaasamaagamootkah kam aparam avazam na viprakuryur vibhum api tam yad amii spRzanti bhaavaah (Btw I find the use of the viraama this way, i.e. writing for , to be really an eyesore in that it distorts the general character of this writing system). In modern editions it would be written as: pazupatirapi taanyahaani kRcchraadagamayadadrisutaasamaagamootkah kamaparamavazam na viprakuryur vibhumapi tam yadamii spRzanti bhaavaah that is breaking the line where Nagari allows one to do so (which seems to be a bit of a half-assed solution). Now why didn't modern editors come up with something like this instead: pazupatira \pi taanya \haani kRcchraada \gamayada \drisutaasamaagamootkah kama \parama \vazam na viprakuryur vibhuma \pi tam yada \mii spRzanti bhaavaah (where \ would be a sign analogous -- but not identical -- to the avagraha, which would indicate that the last vowel of the previous word in fact belongs to the following word) To me such a system seems superior to the method of "splitting where you can" while having all the advantages of splitting the text completely into words without misusing the viraama. (But it would require the introduction of a new sign.) But maybe such a system has got problems I don't see? What would be in your opinion the problems with such a system? Have there been other creative solutions to resolve the dilemma of splitting a Nagari text into words (in those cases one would like to) while preserving the general character of the writing? From jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE Sat Dec 20 20:21:26 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at EURONET.BE (Jacob Baltuch) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 97 21:21:26 +0100 Subject: Breaking down lines? Message-ID: <161227034516.23782.11763677098520612254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd forgotten the case of vowel sandhi. This can be solved by introducing yet another new sign symbolised here by *: <...caaham...> -- for ca+aham -- could be written as <...caa *ham...>. Note this is a case where one has problems even in translitteration, so this kind of thing can help there too. From ARB at MAESTRO.COM Sun Dec 21 13:30:43 1997 From: ARB at MAESTRO.COM (ARB) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 08:30:43 -0500 Subject: old books on Islamic Indian architecture available Message-ID: <161227034520.23782.1609765471886777455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Asian Rare Books has acquired several older books on Indian Islamic architecture, which we can mention at your request. Sanely priced. Thank you, Stephen Feldman, Asian Rare Books From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Dec 22 12:27:24 1997 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 07:27:24 -0500 Subject: SARAI EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT: Bengal Studies Conference Message-ID: <161227034524.23782.11107177523197624721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. If you have any questions or comments about this announcement or about the event, please contact event organizers DIRECTLY as below. Do not send such queries to me. Thank you. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ------------------------------------------------------------------ To: c-seely at uchicago.edu (Clinton Seely) From: c-seely at uchicago.edu (Clinton Seely) Subject: Bengal Studies Conference You are receiving this message because your name is on a list of, at present, 90 people who, we believe, are interested in announcements pertaining to the annual Bengal Studies Conference. If you would like your name removed from this list, please say so in your reply to this message. The BSC will be held at Indiana University, May 1-3, 1998. The official call-for-papers will come later from Professor Rebecca Manring, organizer of this year's conference. The call-for-papers announcement will also be sent out by David Magier via the usual South Asia lists, so you may receive more than one copy. If you leave your name on the BSC email list, you will not receive a paper copy of the announcement, thereby saving the conference organizers the cost of paper and postage. Clint Seely From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 22 16:47:47 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 16:47:47 +0000 Subject: tArakAmaya (another) Message-ID: <161227034525.23782.1986232831118071304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is getting "curiouser and curiouser" (Alice in Wonderland). We have another tArakAmaya in harivamza purANA. It has nothing to do with either tArA or tAraka. (Because it talks about viSNu as KriSNa it is perhaps a latter addition.) In this war candra fights for the devAs instead of against them. The only justifications I could find for calling the battle tArakAmaya are (Gita Press, Gorakhpur Edition) EtasminnantarE mEghA nirvANAGgAravarSiNah sArkacandragrahagaNam chAdayantO nabhasthalam (1.42.13) which can be thought as a tArakA+Amaya. Stars are effectively covered to prevent them from shining. The other is tamRkSayOgAnugatam zizirAmzum dvijEsvaram jagacchAyAGkitatanum naizasya tamasah kSayam (1.44.25) candra is followed by stars into the battle. So the interpretation is tArakA+mayah i.e., full of stars. Though the passage most probably may be an interpolation, we can here perhaps see interpretation of tArakAmayA as "full of stars". As I do not have critical edition of harivamza purANA I do not know whether this portion is treated as prakSipta or not. regards, sarma. From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Dec 22 22:01:10 1997 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 17:01:10 -0500 Subject: niSpAva-AdInAm Message-ID: <161227034527.23782.17456386118061079295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings. I am wondering if you have any insight into the Sanskrit word 'niSpAva-AdInAm'. It seems to be some type of grain or other but I do not know more than that. Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From silk at WMICH.EDU Mon Dec 22 23:36:08 1997 From: silk at WMICH.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 18:36:08 -0500 Subject: niSpAva-AdInAm In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971222220110.00819fa0@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227034528.23782.3657941622017778139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The word ni.spaava (the rest just = etc., I think) is found at Amaarako"sa 2,24, where it seems to mean some kind of pulse, but also the action of winnowing grain. However, there are a large number of related terms -- or *perhaps* related terms -- such as ni.spalaapaa / ni.spulaavaa, ni.supulaakaa, ni.sphala etc. Many of these seems to mean, as MW defines pulaaka, "shrivelled or blighted or empty or bad grain." See Boehtlingk and Roth s.v., and Kau.tilya, where the word seems to mean an already dried and edible, even if not desirable, grain. I have a footnote about this on pp. 313-14 of my doctoral thesis; I can give you the whole reference if you would like. Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 23 14:01:11 1997 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 09:01:11 -0500 Subject: Harvard Or.Ser: M. Deshpande, AV-Pratisakhya Message-ID: <161227034530.23782.11899536291913286734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NEW RELEASE: Harvard Oriental Series, Vol. 52: We are happy to announce the release of Madhav Deshpande's edition and translation of the Zaunaka PrAtizAkhya of the Atharvaveda. More than 125 years after Whitney's edition princeps/ translation & commentary, this work makes a new start in the study of Vedic phonetical texts; this is very important in view of the limited and less than adequate representation of the manuscript and oral traditions in the available editions. The work also contains the edition of three commentaries, a long critical and historical introduction on Vedic phonetics, and several indexes. Each Sutra is followed by a detailed discussion (by the author). The 800 pp. book is vol. 52 of the Harvard Oriental Series. (For HOS see, for the time being: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm) It is available from Harvard University Press, Cambridge MA + London UK, at US $ 75. Details: ======= zaunaIkyA caturAdhyAyikA A prAtizAkhya of the zaunakIya atharvaveda With the commentaries caturAdhyAyIbhASya, bhArgava- bhAskara-vRtti and pajcasandhi Critically edited, translated & annotated by Madhav M. Deshpande HARVARD UNIVERSITY PRESS CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS AND LONDON, ENGLAND 1997 ISBN 0-674-78987-3 ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jai at FLEX.COM Tue Dec 23 20:53:11 1997 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 10:53:11 -1000 Subject: Greetings! Message-ID: <161227034532.23782.17203715435773479560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings to all during this Solstice Celebration! Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From bvi at AFN.ORG Wed Dec 24 00:14:10 1997 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 19:14:10 -0500 Subject: antarikSa Message-ID: <161227034533.23782.15084192277342517110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings. Do you know the derivation of the Sanskrit word 'antarikSa', which relates to astronomy? Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Dec 24 01:03:58 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 01:03:58 +0000 Subject: antarikSa In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971224001410.00823078@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227034535.23782.11700587716685829119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:14 PM 12/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings. > >Do you know the derivation of the Sanskrit word 'antarikSa', which relates >to astronomy? > >Thank you for your help. > >Chris Beetle > > MMW antar+i = between kSha = field Field in between heaven and earth sarma. From thillaud at UNICE.FR Wed Dec 24 02:33:25 1997 From: thillaud at UNICE.FR (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 03:33:25 +0100 Subject: antarikSa In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971224001410.00823078@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227034537.23782.13769601559372837299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Greetings. > >Do you know the derivation of the Sanskrit word 'antarikSa', which relates >to astronomy? > >Thank you for your help. > >Chris Beetle To my knowledge, 'antarikSa' has nothing to do with astronomy, being just the intermediate space between earth and heaven, currently the atmosphere and usually without any star (je croise les doigts). The interpretation given by Mayrhofer (KEWA, sv) is simple and credible: antar : within, between (cp. Lat. inter) IkS- , IkSate : to see the idea being the transparence (in ancient theories of the vision, the light comes from the eye). The difficulty of the long I in the verb is fallacious: the i in antarikSa is the degree zero of a simple laryngeal, IkSate being a reduplicated form from a well known (but difficult) root beginning with a laryngeal (in Indian terms, alternance i/A). You can found it in Skr. akSi : eye and in numerous Eurindian languages, including Lat. oculus and Engl. eye. I have no time to give a more precise explanation, but you can compare with the two Sanskrit verbs : ajati / Ijati. Hoping that was sufficient, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 25 07:27:50 1997 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 97 02:27:50 -0500 Subject: English translation of Mahabharatha Message-ID: <161227034540.23782.6646710309801873679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In English: Protap Chandra Roy' translation (of the north indian vulgate) Van Buitenen's translation of the critical edition books 1-6 in three volumes Carlos Lopez Harvard University On Wednesday, December 24, 1997 10:08 PM, Vidyasagar Govind [SMTP:vidya at SINGNET.COM.SG] wrote: > What is the best unabridged English translation of the Mahabhaarata,and > where can it be obtained? > Thanks. > Vidya From vidya at SINGNET.COM.SG Thu Dec 25 03:07:33 1997 From: vidya at SINGNET.COM.SG (Vidyasagar Govind) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 97 11:07:33 +0800 Subject: English translation of Mahabharatha Message-ID: <161227034539.23782.610396662759278559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the best unabridged English translation of the Mahabhaarata,and where can it be obtained? Thanks. Vidya From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Dec 25 20:31:32 1997 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 97 14:31:32 -0600 Subject: English translation of Mahabharatha Message-ID: <161227034542.23782.5231528950181466773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just wanted to add a little note to Carlos Lopez' information: there is another translation of the MBH by M.N. Dutt, recently reprinted by Parimal Publ in Delhi (1994). Pratap Chandra Roy's publication is a translation by Kisari Mohan Ganguli, as has been disclosed in the foreword of the reprint by Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi, 1990. Pratap Chandra Roy has been its publlisher (as was his wife), rather than translator. Indiana University in Bloomington has an almost complete set of the original publication. van Buitenen completed unfortunately only 5 books of the whole work, but it is still in print and available from Borders Bookstores and probably others. In paper it is not too expensive. Good luck. Edeltraud Harzer Clear. Asian Studies, UT in Austin. >What is the best unabridged English translation of the Mahabhaarata,and >where can it be obtained? >Thanks. >Vidya > From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 28 15:01:07 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 97 20:01:07 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227034544.23782.5459976142850965347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Test. Please ignore. sarma. From russel at RHI.HI.IS Mon Dec 29 07:01:38 1997 From: russel at RHI.HI.IS (Russel Steven Moxham) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 07:01:38 +0000 Subject: Physical impediment, and fighting prowess, in Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227034547.23782.10922282182533378425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that, in Mahabharata, Arjuna (although not blind) learns to fire arrows in darkness. Would someone please tell me just where in the epic this occurs? Does Mahabharata mention other great blind warriors? (If so, where?) Also, I seem to recall that in Peter Brook's movie of [some of] the epic there's a contest of martial skills where at least one warrior (himself an archer, I think), wanting (or forced?) to demonstrate the extent of his mastery, hacks off his own thumb. Is there some such contest in the epic? (If so, where?) Thanks--Russell Moxham From rospatt at WLINK.COM.NP Mon Dec 29 18:47:35 1997 From: rospatt at WLINK.COM.NP (A. v. Rospatt) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:47:35 -0800 Subject: Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project Message-ID: <161227034546.23782.9203209331306191267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Klaus Dieter Mathes (also to be contacted by e-mail: mathes at nrc.wlink.com.np), the present German Representative of the NGMPP in Nepal, asked me to convey the following message to the list: He is, as Prof. Axel Michaels has pointed out, ready to help people getting the copies they need frm the National Archives, but he asks people not to expect that it will be a matter of days. First, the copies have to be ordered in the National Archives, then an advance has to be paid, then the copies have to be picked up and paid for, then they have to be packed, and dispatched to Hamburg by diplomatic courrier. At the University in Hamburg they have to be repacked, before they can finally be forwarded to the person who ordered them in the first place. Obviously with so many hands involved there may be delays. This will be notaby the case when Dr Mathes is out of town, which he frequntly is when going on microfliming expeditions. The entire procedure of getting films in this way is inofficial (in theory Dr Mathes will be customer of the National Archive instead of the persons ordering the film). Really, the films should be ordered directly from the National Archives, as Prof Witzel has pointed out. This, however, has not worked in the past due to problems of forwarding the required money to Nepal. Axel Michaels wrote: > > As one of the former Directors of the NGMPP I can only confirm what > Michaels Witzel wrote about the situation. The agreement between H.M.G. > Nepal and the German Oriental Society was and is for the copy right of > their (!) texts and for the (financial) benefit of Nepal that microfilm > copies have to be ordered directly from the National Archives. > > However, to quicken the procedure one can send the order to the NGMPP > office in Kathmandu (present director: Dr. Klaus-Dieter Mathes), P.O.Box > 180, Kathmandu, who will look after it. Usually it does not take more > than a few days to receive a copy in Nepal since the staff is well > trained and very cooperative. The rest of the procedure depends > on money transfer and mail service (Getting a microfilm copy from > Cambridge University Library took me two months recently.) > > That's it. There are no nationalistic ambitions in it. The NRC and the > NGMPP has always been an international institution with no nationalistic > restrictions at all. Microfilms are available for anybody in the world, > but if the Nepalese side wants to reserve the copy right, one has to > respect it. Such are politics. > > However one could think of an addition tothe agreement that copies can be > ordered from Berlin if it is guaranteed that Nepal will get what she > would get if the microfilms were send from the National Archives. I don't > think that the Nepalese side would object it. > > I shall send a copy of this e-mail to Prof. Wezler. > > Best wishes, Axel Michaels > > Michael Witzel wrote: > > > > The Thanksgiving vacation allows for a somewhat detailed answer and > > clarification, and some history: > > Since there have been few answers, I venture one here. > > > > The recent question by D. Wujastyk has been answered about a year ago by a > > current member of the NGMPP, Anne Macdonald, who has corrected my initial > > reaction then (FO5A006 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de). It should be in the > > Indology archives. > > > > >> I ask for reactions from members of INDOLOGY who have more intimate > > connections with this project than I do myself? What *is* the position? > > Is it truly, as it currently appears, a matter of sheer nationality? << > > > > It is unfortunate that, again, the question of the Nepal-DMG agreement and > > the use of NGMPP microfilms are confounded with nationality -- and this > > inside the EU! > > > > For example, the project has employed,throughout its history, besides > > Nepalese and Germans, some British, Canadian, French, Indian, Italian > > nationals and maybe others. > > > > More importantly, based on my five years as director of the NGMPP at the > > National Archives of Nepal (1972-77) and from what I have heard afterwards > > I can categorically state that we have always tried to help all who asked > > for assistance, irrespective of nationality. > Swiebodzin, which is in Poland>. And we have hosted them at home or in the > > Nepal Research Center (run under the aegis of the DMG), again irrespective > > of nationality. > > > > The problem of the films, if it exists, is one of the *original agreement* > > of a quarter century ago. And that was difficult enough to negotiate. > > > > The agreement clearly speaks about the use of the films by the "the German > > Oriental Society" (DMG) not "members of the DMG". I may dig out the exact > > wording from my basement if the file has not been destroyed in recent > > flooding. ("rescuing and preservation" also here, where even the floods > > are bigger and better!) > > > > But from my years at the NGMPP and at the National Archives I know that > > the *interpretation* of the agreement *at Kathmandu* depends a little on > > the winds prevailing there at the moment in question. (Therefore my > > initial more "liberal" reaction about a year ago). Mostly, the good > > relationship between the two parties will allow to speed up things. If > > some local political mischief intervenes, NOT. --- POLITICS, as > > everywhere. > > > > The only, and ALSO the *safest* and easiest way is to apply to the > > National Archives, pay the cost for the film & the "MS tax" (it used to be > > some 0.75 cents US$ per folio; I don't know the present rate). > > > > If you send a copy of your application to the Director of the project > > (NGMPP, POB 180, Kathmandu), the NGMPP has ALWAYS been happy > > and, I am sure, still will be willing to help you out and facilitate a > > quick turn around. (Not 2 or more months as with many European > > libraries). > > > > However, the *offical* procedure has to go through the Archives. (Chief > > Research Scholar, National Archives, Ram Shah Path, Kathmandu, Nepal). > > > > All of that was stated clearly a year ago or so, by Anne Macdonald > > (FO5A006 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de) > > > > Therefore, H.O. Feistel is right when he says: > > > that this is explicitly stated in > > > the Nepal-Germany agreement. > > > > But the reason, as stated by R.Torella, is not correct: > > > > > The reason is that the Nepalese Archives want > > > to reserve for themselves only the right to get money for providing > > > microfilm copies (to non-German scholars). > > > > They also want the "copyright". And Germans also have to pay at Kathmandu. > > I paid for a number of MSS when I was in station, as director of the > > NGMPP at the very Archives, and also after that, when visiting during the > > Eighties. > > > > Simply, the NATIONAL ARCHIVES retain the right to allow use of the > > microfilms, the "copyright" if you will. And they take a small tax. > > > > MW. > > =========================================================================== > > Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dr. Alexander v. Rospatt Tel.: 00-977-1-271018 Nepal Research Center Fax: 00-977-1-474463 PO Box 180 Kathmandu, Nepal From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 29 13:11:18 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 13:11:18 +0000 Subject: Physical impediment, and fighting prowess, in Mahabharata In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971229070138.00f7ae80@mail.rhi.hi.is> Message-ID: <161227034549.23782.7135963003341398884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:01 AM 12/29/97 +0000, you wrote: >I believe that, in Mahabharata, Arjuna (although not blind) learns to fire >arrows in darkness. Would someone please tell me just where in the epic >this occurs? In MBh (Gita Press, Gorakhpur Edition), Adi Parva (parva I), chapter 131 tam drSTva nityamudyuktam iSvastram prati phalgunam AhUya vacanam drONO rahah sUdamabhASata andhakArE~rjunAyAnnam na dEyam tE kadAcana na cAkhyEyamidam cApi madvAkyam vijayE tvayA tatah kadAcit bhuJjAnE prvavau vAyurarjunE tEna tatra pradIpah sa dIpyamAnO vilOpitah bhuKkta Evatu kauntEyO nAsyAdanyatra vartatE hastastEjasvinastasya anugrahaNakAraNAt tadabhyAsakRtam matvA rAtrAvapi sa pANDavah yOgyAm cakrE mahAbAhur dhanuSA pANDunandanah tasya jyAtalanirghOSam drONah zUzrAva bhArata upEtya cainamuddhAya pariSvajyEdamabravIt "prayatiSyE tathA kartum yathA nAnyO dhanurdharah tvatsamO bhavitA lOkE satyamEtadbravImitE". 21-27 regards, sarma. From eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Dec 29 20:16:10 1997 From: eclear at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Edeltraud Harzer Clear) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 14:16:10 -0600 Subject: Physical impediment, and fighting prowess, in Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227034551.23782.10224108377592866732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe that, in Mahabharata, Arjuna (although not blind) learns to fire >arrows in darkness. Would someone please tell me just where in the epic >this occurs? Does Mahabharata mention other great blind warriors? (If so, >where?) Also, I seem to recall that in Peter Brook's movie of [some of] the >epic there's a contest of martial skills where at least one warrior >(himself an archer, I think), wanting (or forced?) to demonstrate the >extent of his mastery, hacks off his own thumb. Is there some such contest >in the epic? (If so, where?) Thanks--Russell Moxham Ekalavya cut off his thumb as a "fee" demanded by his teacher. It was the teacher himself (DroNa) who asked for such a fee, even though he had not actually been Ekalavya's instructor. DroNa had refused to accept Ekalavya as his pupil out of prejudice. Ekalavya went away, built a statue of DroNa for worship, and practised alone until he reached mastery. Drona asked for the thumb so that his favourite pupil, Arjuna, would not have a rival in archery. He had said to Arjuna "No archer on earth shall ever be your equal." You can read all this in van Buitenen, The Mahabharata, U. Chicago Press, 1973, 1980, book I, section 123.1 (pp. 270 ff.). And of course in the original Sanskrit, if you prefer. Good luck. Edeltraud Harzer Clear Asian Studies, UT @Austin From narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 30 11:37:37 1997 From: narayana at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 11:37:37 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227034553.23782.8763638808445607286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Test. Please ignore. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 30 11:49:53 1997 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 11:49:53 +0000 Subject: Goettingen library - OPAC & indological information (fwd) Message-ID: <161227034555.23782.18178816360739969401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have updated the INDOLOGY pages in line with the following message: DW. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:22:42 GMT+0100 From: GRUENENDAHL To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Subject: Goettingen library - OPAC & indological information Dear colleague, I just realized that the INDOLOGY homepage still links to our old OPAC address. If you still consider it useful (as I hope you will), you may now link to the new Goettingen library homepage under http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de and proceed from there first to "Kataloge & Neuerwerbungen" (at the 10 o'clock position) and then to "WWW-Katalog" or you may try to access the OPAC directly: http://www4.sub.uni-goettingen.de/cgi-bin/wwwlibmenu (haven't tried this direct access from outside, yet) Either way, there is a rudimentary English version available, too (just click the flag). They're still working on it. For indological and related information (in German) you may click "Fachinformationsfuehrer" (8 o'clock position on the Goettingen library homepage; address same as above) and then go down the alphabetical list of subjects to "Sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien" or try to access this page directly under http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm I would be obliged if you could forward these hints to the INDOLOGY list. Thanks in advance. A Happy New Year to everybody! Reinhold Gruenendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen Germany Tel (++) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (++) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Bitte beachten Sie auch den "Fachinformationsfuehrer sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien" auf der Homepage der Niedersaechs. Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de unter "Fachinformationsfuehrer" oder direkt: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm *********************************************************************